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CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2008.07.10 12:52:00 - [1] Noah (CCP) indicated CCP’s awareness of the player frustrations with the ~6 hour duration skill trainings. However, CCP strongly believes that switching skill training is an activity that encourages players to log into the game and play. A skill queue would be a possible solution, if there would be limitations, such as a limited amount of skills being trained, or that only skills of a total up to a certain duration can be stacked into the queue. Alex (CSM Bane Glorious) noted that players have also suggested a dual training mechanic, where players can pick a primary and secondary skill, which both train at half speed. As soon as the skill with the shortest duration is finished, the other skill will train at full speed. It was concluded that CCP will look into a solution for this issue. Wrangler Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Email "It's not worth doing something unless you are doing something that someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing."

Karina Harington A Few Good Men.	Posted - 2008.07.10 15:18:00 - [2] I really have to object to the notion that having to change skill training encourages people to play. It encourages them to log in, sure, but only to change their skill. People play, but only because they want to play, not because they have to switch a skill training. Giving us a shallow queue (1-2 extra items) at least solves the problem awkwardly timed skills whilst still not giving many people the ability to just set up their skills and leave the game for months.
Gojyu Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.07.10 15:21:00 - [3] Originally by: Karina Harington I really have to object to the notion that having to change skill training encourages people to play. It encourages them to log in, sure, but only to change their skill. People play, but only because they want to play, not because they have to switch a skill training. Giving us a shallow queue (1-2 extra items) at least solves the problem awkwardly timed skills whilst still not giving many people the ability to just set up their skills and leave the game for months. I agree. If CCP want to pad their server load graphs, go right ahead, but if I'm playing eve, it's regardless of whether I've got a skill finishing. Spending 30 seconds logged in in a station really doesn't count as "play" does it?
Xaen Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.10 15:25:00 - [4] Single most inexplicably missing feature in EVE. I can only speak for myself, but forcing me to log in to switch skills does not encourage me to play. If I need to switch skills, I do it, then I go about my business. Alternatively, I train long skills when I don't have a choice. Trying to force me to play by making me log in to continue character development only infuriates me. My real life outside the game should dictate when I play, not the game itself. Such a stance is misguided at best, but just presumptuous really. I do not like the dual training mechanic idea, I want the fast ones to finish fast, not slightly more slowly. It would make planning skills nightmarish. I don't even see a reason for limiting the length of the queue either based on time or number of skills. There are use cases that prove either limitation would defeat the purpose of a queue. And I don't buy the character farmer argument. They can already farm characters without a queue. It's like banning automatic transmissions in cars because it allows people to shoot pedestrians out the window because it frees up one of their hands. Technically, it's sound reasoning, but it punishes 99.99% of people (legitimate players) for the potential crimes of a tiny number. The greater good should win out. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.10 15:29:00 - [5] It would be a nice feature to have. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Uriaph	Posted - 2008.07.10 15:42:00 - [6] ok sorry to be rude, but i am failing to understand what was achieved by csm/cpp reunion here: its a simple problem not requiring heavy balancing and/or heavy programming (i think), we knew why ccp was hesitant and they knew why it's an important (even if purely practical) issue for the players from the dozens of pages of forum discussions, and they are supposed to be working on it for years (it was in an official todo list somewhere a (long) while back iirc). And what do we have? A summary of those years of discussion and that they will look into the issue with a moderate priority. Huh... yay great, thats a real leap forward? Taking precautions on important issues impacting the balance of the whole game is a good thing, but here? I was hoping for the csm to have a bit more decisive answers, at least for some of them ... (\rant, sorry :p)
Dakry helios	Posted - 2008.07.10 15:54:00 - [7] Yes I agree with much of what has been said here especially the above. THis subject has been talked about all the years i have known about eve and is one of the things that has bugged me an aweful lot. I have always thought this could be a problem that it would be abused as people could sign up, set a long queue then leave the game thus training long skills for free however as said the 6 hour skills/7hours are annoying to say the least. I liked the idea that you could chain a skill e.g. have two skills one after another(never thought too much about having more than 2 as that would be overkill for long skills) but i also like the time limit idea. so why not mix it e.g. two skills chained to a certain time limit, instead of just a set amount of skill time to build to it would still mean that you have tp tactfully think about time. And just a personal note, i do agree with the point that skills arent only what make me play eve but it is useful as a reminder to get me in game, sometimes i go in game only for a skill and it so happens that something is happenign and im glad i logged in for the skills which im sure many will find has happened whether they would like to believe it or not. Dak's
Misanth The Forsakened Companions Pure.	Posted - 2008.07.10 16:08:00 - [8] Edited by: Misanth on 10/07/2008 16:10:07 Originally by: CCP Wrangler Alex (CSM Bane Glorious) noted that players have also suggested a dual training mechanic, where players can pick a primary and secondary skill, which both train at half speed. As soon as the skill with the shortest duration is finished, the other skill will train at full speed. It was concluded that CCP will look into a solution for this issue. I like that part. No comment on the first, I can't feel it affect me much in any way.. just set a longer if you can't log/get too stressed about it, and do the shorter while you're ingame. But that's just my thought on the matter. As the second case.. It'd make a nice feature. Don't feel it's necessary, but it'd be nice to have. Sounds like a solid solution to the first example as well.
Complete Tart	Posted - 2008.07.10 16:12:00 - [9] Some great arguments above, which I agree with. A skill queue would not have the adverse affects you think it might CCP... it might actually mean more people making alts, since training small skills would be less of a chore. Hell, I would start a new character but the thing putting me off is the amount of time required to change all those stupid small skills, I just can't be bothered with it
Ricdics Corporate Placement Holding	Posted - 2008.07.10 16:18:00 - [10] Originally by: CCP Wrangler However, CCP strongly believes that switching skill training is an activity that encourages players to log into the game and play. CCP needs to rethink the way they do things if they make changes that encourage more logging in. As the above users have said, a forced skill change doesn't encourage gameplay. It encourages late nights, waking in the middle of the night, missing study time, and the likes. It's long past since I bothered changing skills the second they finished but I know a lot of people still do. Logging in for the trivial task of changing a skill is a negative for CCP in many ways. * It's a nuisance for their customers * It takes completely unnecessary server load * During peak periods it can cause delays for people wanting to "play" Now, I have not really been a major supporter of the ability to queue skills. The real reason I believe CCP don't want this feature is because it promotes people taking extended periods without subscription whilst their training progresses thereby has a negative impact on income. I would propose that queued skilling come into play however on the condition that skill points only accrue when an account is active. If your account isn't subscribed you shouldn't be learning. It's a pretty fair compromise imo.
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.07.10 16:36:00 - [11] I do not support a skill queue. I stand by the idea that players who are willing to take the time to micromanage their training should have a benefit over those players who do not. Sure, you might lose out on a few hours of training if you choose to sleep instead of changing your skill at 1 am, but where does that logic stop? Should players who choose to sleep get isk deposited into their account because other players got to rat/mission all night? It might seem like an extreme example, but it follows the same logic of getting something for nothing. Thumbs down.
Doc Extropy Gallente Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.07.10 16:52:00 - [12] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Noah (CCP) indicated CCPÆs awareness of the player frustrations with the ~6 hour duration skill trainings. Yeah. Originally by: CCP Wrangler However, CCP strongly believes that switching skill training is an activity that encourages players to log into the game and play. Of course, it is. Yes, I FULLY agree with that. Originally by: CCP Wrangler A skill queue would be a possible solution, if there would be limitations, such as a limited amount of skills being trained, or that only skills of a total up to a certain duration can be stacked into the queue. Whatever. In fact, length of ONE extra skill would be enough. For example: 6 hour skill + 38 day skill. This would solve most of the problems. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Alex (CSM Bane Glorious) noted that players have also suggested a dual training mechanic, where players can pick a primary and secondary skill, which both train at half speed. As soon as the skill with the shortest duration is finished, the other skill will train at full speed. Fair solution, great. I like that and want to encourage this specific idea. Originally by: CCP Wrangler It was concluded that CCP will look into a solution for this issue. Finally... thank you VERY much! --- Skill queue now! Nerf skillpoint loss and half done skills! WE ARE PAYING CUSTOMERS AND DESERVE MAXIMUM COMFORT!
Doc Extropy Gallente Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Complete Tart Some great arguments above, which I agree with. A skill queue would not have the adverse affects you think it might CCP... it might actually mean more people making alts, since training small skills would be less of a chore. Hell, I would start a new character but the thing putting me off is the amount of time required to change all those stupid small skills, I just can't be bothered with it True... just quit my third account because micromanaging all those annoying short skills to get her able to do some work for me in a few months was such a ** in the . --- Skill queue now! Nerf skillpoint loss and half done skills! WE ARE PAYING CUSTOMERS AND DESERVE MAXIMUM COMFORT!*
Derul Mant	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:06:00 - [14] The lack of a skill queue is very, very frustrating and fixing this glaring omission should be CCP's highest priority. I don't want to live my life around EVE. I have 1001 other things to do in real life, and "just logging on to change a skill" is just silly. I know that a lot of people live for EVE. I don't. Faction Warfare is wonderful in that I get to play PVP pretty much on demand. The lack of queue spoils that enjoyment. It disrupts corp life (the "oh hai I can't talk or join an op I am just changing a skill" syndrome) as well. Just give me the ability to drag a skill to a queue. Let me queue up a dozen or so skills.
Bane Glorious	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:07:00 - [15] The Skill Queue was presented with people who work 8-hour a day jobs who have many 4-6 hour skills to train in mind, not people who vend alts. Also the Skill Queue description in the OP isn't entirely accurate of what I recommended, but it's close enough.
Alaki Kant Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:29:00 - [16] If there is a skill queue, something needs to be done to prevent people from doing something like the following: 1) Create alt and pay for one month 2) Set in-demand long skills 3) Stop paying 4) Sell new HAC pilot for 1 bil in the character bazaar I see several options to prevent this: - Skill queue becomes inactive if the account is not paid for (only the current skill will continue training) - Queue cannot be larger than 1-2 skills - Total skill training time cannot be longer than n days (7, maybe?) A combination of all of these is perhaps best.
Elaron Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:37:00 - [17] I support the idea of a limited queue, something like being able to add skills to it while the current queue length is still under a certain amount, to a specific maximum depth (2 or 3 skills).
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:38:00 - [18] Yes to dual training or skill queue of 1 skill deep. No more. Deactivate dualtrain/skill queue when account becomes inactive. -
Doc Extropy Gallente Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:47:00 - [19] Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari Yes to dual training or skill queue of 1 skill deep. No more. Deactivate dualtrain/skill queue when account becomes inactive. Which is what I prefer as well. One is enough, two would possibly be already too much and would encourage farming. Maybe also limit the first skill to be no longer than 24 hours. Yay. --- Skill queue now! Nerf skillpoint loss and half done skills! WE ARE PAYING CUSTOMERS AND DESERVE MAXIMUM COMFORT!
Somatic Neuron	Posted - 2008.07.10 17:56:00 - [20] Edited by: Somatic Neuron on 10/07/2008 17:56:34 Originally by: CCP Wrangler Noah (CCP) indicated CCPÆs awareness of the player frustrations with the ~6 hour duration skill trainings. However, CCP strongly believes that switching skill training is an activity that encourages players to log into the game and play. A skill queue would be a possible solution, if there would be limitations, such as a limited amount of skills being trained, or that only skills of a total up to a certain duration can be stacked into the queue. Alex (CSM Bane Glorious) noted that players have also suggested a dual training mechanic, where players can pick a primary and secondary skill, which both train at half speed. As soon as the skill with the shortest duration is finished, the other skill will train at full speed. It was concluded that CCP will look into a solution for this issue. Solution: Only apply the skill queue if the account subscription is active. If it is inactive, the queue doesn't apply, but the currently training skill continues to train until it reaches the level it was training towards. ----------
Mashie Saldana Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.07.10 19:01:00 - [21] It shouldn't be that difficult to implement a queue that gives a minimum completion time of 12h. 10 If current skill queue < 12h permit adding another skill 20 goto 10 This will prevent people from setting dread V + carrier V and then leave the account disabled for half a year.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.07.10 19:10:00 - [22] My preferred suggestion is a skill that adds some number of hours(6-24, depending on how good you want it to be) of queue length per level. You can stick whatever you like in a queue, but it'll only let you train off it for maybe a couple days before it stops. Also, make it so that it can train new level 1 skills if the book is sitting in your hangar or cargo as of when the previous skill finishes(and if it's not, it'll skip it and go down the list to the first one it can train). Gives you the ability to put together a raft of short skills or one long one, without having to be awake at any given time of day, and without causing any real issues with unpaid training(because really, an extra couple days is hardly gamebreaking when the usual length of an offline skill is 20-40). Also, make sure the queue timer is included in the API data, so that people don't forget it on EveMon, but other than that it'll pretty much take care of itself. I'm for any kind of reasonable limited-length queue, but the above is my preferred variant. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Warlord Neurotoxin	Posted - 2008.07.10 19:36:00 - [23] Here is a solution. If players are only able to queue up skills based on an amount of time allotted by their attributes, then players would be able to set limited skill queues to prevent time wastage while still requiring players to log in reasonably close to the skill's finishing time. For each attribute, the player gets 1 hour of queue time. When the player is setting up their queue, the primary attribute costs as much allotted time as the skill's current duration to finish, and secondary costs half as much as the duration to finish. There must be at least enough time allotted to cover the duration of the current skill before the next skill may be started in the queue. By using this method, the player may queue a skill to train that is a higher level of the current skill. The drawback is that the player is unable to have a 30-day skill automatically switch over to the next skill until their allotted time exceeds the current time remaining. Here is an example of how it works (the following skill numbers are NOT EXACT! Or even ballpark, it is just an example). Suppose the player has an attribute line of 20 across the board. That means that they have 20 hours allotted to each attribute. The total max allotted time is 100 hours, which splits to 66.6 hours spent on primary attribute in the skill training and the 33.3 hours taken up by the secondary attribute, giving an true maximum of 66.6 hours allotted to the queue. The player wants to train Gunnery (Perception / Willpower) skill a few levels. The first level takes 30 minutes, the second level takes 2 hours, the third takes 8 hours, and the fourth takes 18 hours. The player also wants to do the same with Leadership (Charisma / Willpower) The player then chooses to train Drones (Memory / Perception) which is at level 3 already. Gunnery: Level 0 -> Level 1 - 30 Minutes - Reduces Perception to 19:30 and Willpower to 19:45 Level 1 -> Level 2 - 2 Hours - Reduces Perception to 17:30 and Willpower to 18:45 Level 2 -> Level 3 - 8 Hours - Reduces Perception to 9:30 and Willpower to 14:45 Since Level 3 -> Level 4 would go beyond the allotted time, it cannot be queued. Charisma: Level 0 -> Level 1 - 30 Minutes - Reduces Charisma to 19:30 and Willpower to 14:30 Level 1 -> Level 2 - 2 Hours - Reduces Charisma to 17:30 and Willpower to 13:30 Level 2 -> Level 3 - 8 Hours - Reduces Charisma to 9:30 and Willpower to 7:30 Drones: Level 3 -> Level 4 - 18 Hours - Reduces Memory to 2:00 and Perception to 0:30 The player currently has 39 out of a possible 66.6 hours of skills in the queue. At this point, the player has the following time still allotted for the queue: Intelligence - 20 Hours Perception - 30 Minutes Charisma - 9:30 Willpower - 7:30 Memory - 2 Hours I believe that this is the solution that is fair, and would give players enough time to keep skills constantly training without any lost time. If a player's pod is destroyed, the player wants to insert or remove an implant, or the player's account has expired, their queue is eliminated automatically. Otherwise, the player may edit or clear their queue at any time. Also, in the case of learning skills, they do not reduce the estimated queue time for skills set after them, but will automatically begin affecting them after the learning skill has completed. As for the way to set up the menu, I leave that to you. I envision something that looks like an object-oriented programming window where skills can be dragged and dropped, or even a list to that extent I would be more than happy to provide more suggestions for how to set this up. Anyhow, I hope this idea seems fair and appealing to all. Thank you for reading!
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.07.10 19:40:00 - [24] Originally by: Warlord Neurotoxin (suggestion) Interesting suggestion, but way too complex IMO. Keep it as simple as you can - there's no need for skill queuing to turn into a minigame. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Marcus Gideon Gallente Excessive Force	Posted - 2008.07.10 19:59:00 - [25] Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 10/07/2008 19:59:53 I also agree that these bizarre, time limit, math problems are too much extra. It's as simple as (Current Skill) and (Queued Skill). Current skill could be training a skillbook from 0 to 1. Queue is from 1 to 2. Then you're set for... about 20min. Current from 1 to 2. Queue from 2 to 3. Set for about an hour or so. All of these will slowly advance you in simple processes, which would have otherwise required you to "play the game" for about 10 seconds worth of switching. OR... Current is Spaceship Command 4 to 5. Queued is Racial Industrial 4 to 5. You're set for a couple weeks at least. During which time, you can take a care free vacation without having to hunt down Wi-Fi on the beach. When you return, you're just a few minutes away from climbing into a Freighter. A "skill queue" scares too many people, because they believe you could create an entirely new character, supply them with the books, and return a year later to find a Titan pilot trained to 5. It doesn't need to be any more complex than 1 skill following 1 skill. Sure, if a player happens to chain another skill a few days later... they've only "played the game" for 10 seconds, just like we are now. --- Don't take my rantings personally. I may just be arguing the topic... unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word.
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.07.10 20:35:00 - [26] Edited by: TornSoul on 10/07/2008 20:39:07 Originally by: Ricdics CCP needs to rethink the way they do things if they make changes that encourage more logging in. As the above users have said, a forced skill change doesn't encourage gameplay. It encourages late nights, waking in the middle of the night, missing study time, and the likes. It's long past since I bothered changing skills the second they finished but I know a lot of people still do. Logging in for the trivial task of changing a skill is a negative for CCP in many ways. * It's a nuisance for their customers * It takes completely unnecessary server load * During peak periods it can cause delays for people wanting to "play" Now, I have not really been a major supporter of the ability to queue skills. The real reason I believe CCP don't want this feature is because it promotes people taking extended periods without subscription whilst their training progresses thereby has a negative impact on income. I would propose that queued skilling come into play however on the condition that skill points only accrue when an account is active. If your account isn't subscribed you shouldn't be learning. It's a pretty fair compromise imo. I'm quoting the lot as I happen to agree ad verbatim. I'd like to stress this bit though "Now, I have not really been a major supporter of the ability to queue skills" But I've also ended up with "It's long past since I bothered changing skills the second they finished" So I'm starting to lean towards beeing pro queue skill (never thought the day would come....). It should however be kept really simple. No more than 2 days in the skill queue (ie. last skill in the queue has to start before that - regardless how long that skill takes to finish itself) If you cant be assed to log in at least every 2 days, well then you don't care enough abotu your SP's in the first place. 2 days should be plenty to get around those pesky "odd hour" skills and leave a day of for a party or whatever, and then some to spare. No more is needed. BIG Lottery
Thesamie	Posted - 2008.07.10 21:53:00 - [27] Originally by: TornSoul Edited by: TornSoul on 10/07/2008 20:39:07 Originally by: Ricdics No more than 2 days in the skill queue (ie. last skill in the queue has to start before that - regardless how long that skill takes to finish itself) If you cant be assed to log in at least every 2 days, well then you don't care enough abotu your SP's in the first place. 2 days should be plenty to get around those pesky "odd hour" skills and leave a day of for a party or whatever, and then some to spare. No more is needed. this i have to disagree upon due to people like me who are in the military true we might be a small amount of people but all but 3 people i personal knopw that play this game are in some sort of military personal. and as we are not always able to log in every 2 days we still want our sp just like you would. 2 days would easily take care of pesky odd hour and intruptions in other life things to log in to change a skill. While in the military it is not uncommon to have feild exercises that last 30+ days where we would not have internet availble even when not deployed and the only way to deal with that now is to give our login information to some unelse (not always safe) to log ina nd change skills true you can get around this by really long skills but i dont have any skills that i am currently ready to train that take more then 25 days heck a skill that i was tld takes on average 29 days to train i didnt in 27 and if i was int eh feild for 30 days i would have lost 3 days of sp. what i would suggest is this: 1)45 day limit to training time limit 2)skills dont train while account is not active (subscription not active) 3)limit to amount of skills put in cue 3b)or a priority system where skills put in cue are worth so many point and a limit to points put in cue which would inturn take care of both 1 and 3 the only problem i see to this is the amount of programming wanting to be done to fix the issue. haveing being a programmer my self the less we have to do the happier we are.
TornSoul BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.07.10 22:13:00 - [28] Edited by: TornSoul on 10/07/2008 22:13:45 We will have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. As mentioned I'm "originally" against a skill queue, however I've been convinced otherwise due to the "odd hour" skills. Having to get up in the middle of the night or similar to not lose skillpoints is kind of silly (is silly because people will actually do it - and it's not a healthy thing...) But that's also the only thing that has convinced me to change my mind on having a skill queue or not - and I've then added a bit of extra time in my proposal "for good meassure". But if you can't play the game for extended periods of time, due to military or illness or vacation or otherwise then I'm sorry for you, but I, as CCP, believe in logging in regularly to play the game, or you're out of luck (SP wise), even if it's just to change a skill. We obviously disagree on this. Fair enough. No harm. BIG Lottery
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.10 22:15:00 - [29] As said above, a simple 1) Skill in training, 2) Skill in Queue... All training stops when a subscription is inactive... I love to login when I feel like playing... I hate to have to login because I need to change a skill... I also hate that my current skill will run it's course about 1 minute after down time starts... so I will have another partially trained skill waiting for the time when I can spare the time to finish it... where if I had a skill queue, I could set up the next skill to start when the current skill completes. --------*****-------- Learn and be informed, because a Politicians worst nightmare is an informed voter... So choose your CSM Candidates wisely
Veryez	Posted - 2008.07.10 23:06:00 - [30] Yes, Yes, Yes Even a 12 hour, 1 skill que would be a HUGE boost. Allowing players a small window to log in and que up a second skill, really helps people like myself who work 12 hour shifts (with 3 hours commuting on top of that). Nothing is more frustrating then setting up a skill to finish in the morning before work, waking up and finding that eve is unexpectedly down. Trying for 45 minutes or so, helpless waiting for the server to come up - but it doesn't. And knowing I'm losing 15 hours of training through no fault of my own. Please implement some improvement.

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