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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.11 18:14:00 -
[151]
Fights should last at least as long as they do now. The longer the fight the more tactics and actual skill matter.
Those who want to fight should be able to fit their boats to fight. Those who want to escape and evade should be able to fit their boats for escaping and evading. Those two should be balanced against one another so that they are equally effective options. Those who are trying to haul stuff shouldn't have an inalienable right to escape an aggressor. Aggressors shouldn't have an automatic "I Win" when they lock a hauler or some other ship whose only chance is to escape and evade. It's called balance. What a concept.
Those who want to agress helpless targets and win automatically are going to whine if they cant. Those who always want to be able to escape at will are going to whine when they cant. That's called human nature.
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Ace Frehley
Minmatar
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.08.11 18:23:00 -
[152]
I have bad feeling about how it will be after the patch. Big gangs of roaming RR/RS BS (ravens with missiles le win!) and a huge numbers of falcon. If you loose a fight, you basiclly dident bring enuf falcons  .
Cuz how you gonna catch the falcons? They got longer range then most bs and you cant supprise tackle him with a fast ship, cuz everything goes slow........
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Xzar Fyrarr
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.11 18:35:00 -
[153]
Bellum
Is
Legend-
That is all.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.11 18:36:00 -
[154]
 Originally by: Ace Frehley
I have bad feeling about how it will be after the patch. Big gangs of roaming RR/RS BS (ravens with missiles le win!) and a huge numbers of falcon. If you loose a fight, you basiclly dident bring enuf falcons .
Cuz how you gonna catch the falcons? They got longer range then most bs and you cant supprise tackle him with a fast ship, cuz everything goes slow........
Still going to suffer the serious lack of wheaties (DPS) that force recons always have, so unless you're running a frig gang, they won't be an "I Win", since more folks will be running honest-to-god tanks now. They aren't like pre-patch Vagas who had all the escape ability and DPS too.
And it's about time Ravens weren't a joke in PvP. Maybe a few of them will stop missioning and ratting and PvP a little for a change.
Not to worry, if any setup proves godly it won't last. The nerf bat cometh for all men.
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.08.11 18:47:00 -
[155]
The problem is people "like" winning, but but hate dying.... hence the problem.
Personally; I'm all for making it easier to die. 
--
Originally by: CCP Oveur
...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
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Harris
AFK
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Posted - 2008.08.11 18:58:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Esmenet
So many misconceptions....
So narrow minded. My comments were about quoting changes to the game that were intended û apparently û to prevent PVP unless you wanted it. The changes however were not intended in the manner quoted. The side effect may well be present but can be addressed with tweaks and changes as always happens in this game if they get out of hand.
Originally by: Esmenet
Now its ooo eeek i made a mistake, but not to worry i got plenty of time to turn off my guns and wait 30 secs until i can dock (unless i am blobbed to death)....
Because of course, every pilot has the skills and fittings to ensure that they will live for 30 seconds in any given circumstance... Why IÆm surprised the killboards even bother being run anymore because no-one dies at stations or gates anymore since the HP buff.... and theyÆre the only places pvp takes place right...? oh wait....
Not everyone can have a tank that will last 30 seconds - and they tried to stop insta-re-dock by making you exit at full speed. Doesn't work on all types of stations cos of docking range but it was a step in the right direction... forgotten in the argument?
If your idea of pvp is vapourising (easy ganking) someone whoÆs screen hasnÆt even loaded then this discourse is pointless.
Originally by: Esmenet
See above.
See above. You keep forgetting my point. They want the all-out-gank-vapourised-in-a-jiffy mentality to be gone, just as they want the nano-fad to go. Battles lasting longer is good for the game because it gives time for tactics or time for manoeuvre (to a limited degree, granted; but still). Blob warfare was always there, it is now a problem as much because of the numbers of pilots in the game nowadays, as it is because of the motto of many
ôTry to fight with your friends, it gives them more people to shoot atö
Originally by: Esmenet
Try to read the weapon rig descriptions and you might understand why weapon rigs are not used much.
And yet they work and they are used ûa- plenty on setups-other-than-speed...
You use rigs suitable for your fighting style. You have a defensive sytle then...
I know plenty of people who strive to get the most out of their ships other than defense.
People fit for purpose and fighting style. Always have. Always will.
Your point is more that the cumulation of stacking on certain modules that has gotten out of hand that is the problem, not the fact that they are around or that you don't use them much on your ships. If itÆs broken, suggest a fix.
Originally by: Esmenet
No it promotes big blobs and sensible pilots see them with scouts and stay away (less pvp.) Vs a small gang its easier to escape because the webs dont slow you down much, and the small gang donÆt have the dps to kill you fast enough.
Because big blobs donÆt exist at the moment??? ItÆs all a matter of scale isnÆt it?
Take the nano-argument because its so popular right now. Just as it takes a reasonably well organised gang to engage a blob because itÆs nano fitted, it takes a reasonably well organised gang to kill a nano gang. You canÆt have it both ways. If theyÆre going to engage, theyÆre going to engage. (aka û same amount of pvp û same amount of deaths as people work to adapt on both sides)
How about looking at it this way. It won't promote offensive blobs. It will promote defensive blobs but who defends territory in small groups if they know another small group is around??? Small gang warfare is limited at the moment anyway. Nothing will change there.
People are complaining about the nano-nerf saying it will ruin pvp because people will avoid engagements.
WasnÆt a problem before the nano-fad came around, wonÆt be a problem after it. Frankly, if it gets rid of the people who only nanoÆd because they wouldnÆt lose their ship then IÆm all for it.
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Harris
AFK
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:00:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Harris on 11/08/2008 19:04:56
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 11/08/2008 18:20:12
Fights should last at least as long as they do now. The longer the fight the more tactics and actual skill matter.
Those who want to fight should be able to fit their boats to fight. Those who want to escape and evade should be able to fit their boats for escaping and evading. Those two should be balanced against one another so that they are equally effective options.
Those who are trying to haul stuff shouldn't have an inalienable right to escape an aggressor. Aggressors shouldn't have an automatic "I Win" when they lock a hauler or some other ship whose only chance is to escape and evade. It should come down to who had the better counter to whatever their opponent had fit, and there shouldn't be any "ultimate" setup for which there is no counter. It's called balance. What a concept.
Those who want to agress helpless targets and win automatically are going to whine if they cant. Those who always want to be able to escape at will are going to whine when they cant. That's called human nature.
This /\
Originally by: Ace Frehley
I have bad feeling about how it will be after the patch. Big gangs of roaming RR/RS BS (ravens with missiles le win!) and a huge numbers of falcon. If you loose a fight, you basiclly dident bring enuf falcons .
Cuz how you gonna catch the falcons? They got longer range then most bs and you cant supprise tackle him with a fast ship, cuz everything goes slow........
Right now the falcon pilot just has to get to 150km and kite it. Anyone locks him, he's jammed ... and so the long day wears on. 
After the nerf, the range isn't going to be such a problem but apart from that, what's different from nowadays?
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Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:05:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill when I started thinking about the upcoming patch, how it's going to affect PVP in general....
The OP lost me right there. Cruising High-Sec looking for haulers is NOT PVP.
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Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:09:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Princess Jodi
The OP lost me right there. Cruising High-Sec looking for haulers is NOT PVP.
Originally by: Wikipedia
Player vs player, or PvP, is competitive interaction within a game between two or more live participants.
Well, look at that. I guess you where wrong there, Jodi.
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Corduroy Rab
Xenocidal Uprising
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:14:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Arctur Ceti
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill...
Have you tried other forms of PVP besides ganking untanked AFK haulers in hi sec? I hear in low sec there's plenty of PVP to be had.
Bellum Eternus
likely isnt totally accurate, but should give a good idea
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Iyachtu Achlysiel
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:38:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Esmenet
Now its ooo eeek i made a mistake, but not to worry i got plenty of time to turn off my guns and wait 30 secs until i can dock (unless i am blobbed to death).
Might be worth it to increase the docking delay. Then again it might not. If you don't have a realistic chance to redock despite having made a mistake, then the solution is simple. Don't engage in the first place. Instead of these interesting situations where people try to kill the bait outside the station and then redock before the gank squad incinerates them, sometimes succeeding and sometimes dying horribly, we'd have more sitting outside station and smacking at the guy inside who went afk half an hour ago.
Quote:
Try to read the weapon rig descriptions and you might understand why weapon rigs are not used much.
They're in need of tweaking, yes. It'd be better if they'd hit cap or something instead of utterly messing up your fits. Sure, if you're using T1, then you'll have PG/CPU to spare, but there's not much point in rigging up cheap junk.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:38:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Esmenet on 11/08/2008 19:44:48
Originally by: Harris
Because of course, every pilot has the skills and fittings to ensure that they will live for 30 seconds in any given circumstance... Why I’m surprised the killboards even bother being run anymore because no-one dies at stations or gates anymore since the HP buff.... and they’re the only places pvp takes place right...? oh wait....
Perhaps you missed the part about blobbing. Dps from one ship has just been replaced by more ships. Heck even bumping is nerfed in the next patch to encourage more docking games.
Quote:
Not everyone can have a tank that will last 30 seconds - and they tried to stop insta-re-dock by making you exit at full speed. Doesn't work on all types of stations cos of docking range but it was a step in the right direction... forgotten in the argument?
Considering the 30 sec invulnerability at start the ships would have to be pretty evenly matched or in favour of the "defender" for him to attack in the first place. If the tables are then turned from misjudging the other ship, its not exactly going to be instapopped unless you bring in a blob of other ships.
Quote:
If your idea of pvp is vapourising (easy ganking) someone who’s screen hasn’t even loaded then this discourse is pointless.
Actually vaporising is incredibly important in the current pvp, its just done by multiple ships.
Quote:
They want the all-out-gank-vapourised-in-a-jiffy mentality to be gone, just as they want the nano-fad to go.
Encouraging blobbing and focus fire dont exactly leave much room for manouvering and "long fights".
Quote:
You use rigs suitable for your fighting style. You have a defensive sytle then...
I know plenty of people who strive to get the most out of their ships other than defense.
People fit for purpose and fighting style. Always have. Always will.
No the defensive rigs have much better bonuses and much less severe penalties compared to most of the weapon rigs. A ship with weapon rigs will underperform compared to the same ship with typically a tanking or cap rig. You can allow some exceptions ofcourse for instance on PVE ships where tanking more than a certain level is worthless.
Quote:
Because big blobs don’t exist at the moment??? It’s all a matter of scale isn’t it?
Yes blobs exist but thats not an excuse for encouraging more blobbing.
Quote:
How about looking at it this way. It won't promote offensive blobs. It will promote defensive blobs but who defends territory in small groups if they know another small group is around??? Small gang warfare is limited at the moment anyway. Nothing will change there.
Small gang warfare is pretty much the only pvp i can do unless i am forced to go posbashing. Speed is very important for the small gangs chances to do something in hostile territory without getting blobbed in and forced to cloak for 5 hours or do a logoffski.
Quote:
People are complaining about the nano-nerf saying it will ruin pvp because people will avoid engagements.
Wasn’t a problem before the nano-fad came around, won’t be a problem after it. Frankly, if it gets rid of the people who only nano’d because they wouldn’t lose their ship then I’m all for it.
0.0 is very different from what it was in the "glory days".
Vote against the nano nerf! |
FlameGlow
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:42:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Princess Jodi
The OP lost me right there. Cruising High-Sec looking for haulers is NOT PVP.
Originally by: Wikipedia
Player vs player, or PvP, is competitive interaction within a game between two or more live participants.
Well, look at that. I guess you where wrong there, Jodi.
Ah, definitions, who cares about them? If you strictly follow definitions you could say for example that being a pirate is impossible in 0.0 (piracy is defined as illegal activity and there are no laws in 0.0 so nothing is illegal) 
_____________
I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:43:00 -
[164]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Ah, definitions, who cares about them? If you strictly follow definitions you could say for example that being a pirate is impossible in 0.0 (piracy is defined as illegal activity and there are no laws in 0.0 so nothing is illegal)
That's true, but what does that have to do with Jodi being wrong?
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.11 19:43:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Iyachtu Achlysiel
They're in need of tweaking, yes. It'd be better if they'd hit cap or something instead of utterly messing up your fits. Sure, if you're using T1, then you'll have PG/CPU to spare, but there's not much point in rigging up cheap junk.
And damage rigs for instance suffers stacking penalties with damage mods while most defensive rigs escape stacking penalities. Since the weapon rigs are worse than a damage mod while punishing you with heavy fitting penalties you cant exactly swap one for the other wither.
Vote against the nano nerf! |
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.08.11 21:10:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Ace Frehley
I have bad feeling about how it will be after the patch. Big gangs of roaming RR/RS BS (ravens with missiles le win!) and a huge numbers of falcon. If you loose a fight, you basiclly dident bring enuf falcons .
Cuz how you gonna catch the falcons? They got longer range then most bs and you cant supprise tackle him with a fast ship, cuz everything goes slow........
This just in: no, actually, plenty of battleships can and do outrange falcons.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Doctor Hourai
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Posted - 2008.08.11 21:26:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Furb Killer
tl;dr version:
Suicide ganker whines he hasnt total risk free profit.
Did it ever occur to you that a 1 minute long fight is more fun for both the loser and the winner than a 7 second fight where the winner alpha strikes the loser?
Which brings us to point 2, the only pvp you know is ganking unarmed haulers without any risk someone shoots you, that doesnt make it the only form of pvp in eve...
You are an idiot. Don't you EVER post again unless you research what you are talking about. I cannot explain enough to you how much of a moron you are. How dare you, you presumptuous *******. Please refer here: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Bellum+Eternus-kills.html#show << this is rough and tentative, as BC is not the msot accurate KB on the planet :P . Now, stop talking and listen to someone who knows WHAT they are talking about.
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McTard
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Posted - 2008.08.11 21:40:00 -
[168]
Quote:
unless i am forced to go posbashing.
Speed is very important for the small gangs chances to do something in hostile territory without getting blobbed in and forced to
cloak for 5 hours or do a logoffski. In other words it will be more boring and naturally there will be much less of it.
Forced to defend yourself you mean, forced to actually have a chance of losing your ship in not 100% optimal circumstances. Forced to actually have a slight chance of NOT getting through a bubble, no longer almost completely immune to precision missiles. Enjoy the coming times!
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Stab Wounds
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.11 21:50:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Spurty
on sisi, tests showed nano ships escape gate camps, but not without causalities anymore.
- solo nano ship jumping into a camp ready for 'anything' dies.
there again:
- solo armor tank ship jumping into a camp ready for 'anything' dies.
- solo shield tank ship jumping into a camp ready for 'anything' dies.
Seems pretty balanced. More roles your gang fills, the less chance someone can escape a camp.
Best choice of fit for solo'gatecamp crashing on sisi = ab inty with cloak.
Jump in, hold cloak till session timer expires, pulse ab towards gate and cloak as fast as possible. You should make it back to the gate safely cloaked up and jump when ready.
/thread
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Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.11 21:55:00 -
[170]
Eve pvp has been in a state of "gank or be ganked" for quite some time. It is a rare treat indeed for two similarly equipped gangs (ie, one not specifically tailored to kill the other) with similar numbers and pilots of equivalent skill to engage in quality combat. "Combat" in Eve consists largely of being on the giving or recieving end of a gank. Patches that favor "encouraging committed pvp" won't make the risk-averse pvp-ers any more interested in undertaking risk. Patches that favor "protecting carebears" won't make the idiots who actually get caught by suicide ganks any smarter/situationally aware.
You can't patch a power-gamer. Power-gamers who care about their wallet will find ways to maximize profit with minimal risk. Power-gamers who care about pvp will find ways to maximise k/d ratio at minimal risk. People can talk about wanting "good, fun fights" all they want...but it's just talk. In the end, people want to "win" (which can mean a dozen different things in a game like Eve: retaining space in 0.0, having a kick-ass k/d ratio, having a big wallet, whatever) and will take whatever means possible to do that.
The more Eve changes, the more it stays the same really.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.11 21:56:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Esmenet on 11/08/2008 21:56:28
Originally by: McTard
Quote:
unless i am forced to go posbashing.
Speed is very important for the small gangs chances to do something in hostile territory without getting blobbed in and forced to
cloak for 5 hours or do a logoffski. In other words it will be more boring and naturally there will be much less of it.
Forced to defend yourself you mean, forced to actually have a chance of losing your ship in not 100% optimal circumstances. Forced to actually have a slight chance of NOT getting through a bubble, no longer almost completely immune to precision missiles. Enjoy the coming times!
No i wont wait in my battleship for your blob outnumbering me 5+-1 to attack or jump into your gatecamp. I will cloak or log off unless our scouts **** up.
Vote against the nano nerf! |
Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.11 22:00:00 -
[172]
Bellum could you maybe toss in a word about how borked minmatar gates are with regards to the distance it puts a target from you when they jump in. Sitting at 0 on a gate and they appear up to 40km away.... what a joke.
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VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.08.11 22:42:00 -
[173]
What a festival of ignorance. I have not seen so many clueless, fruity carebears in my entire eve career.
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
killing evrything that jumps through a gate is not piracy. Piracy by definition has economic(sp?) motives behind. that includes making sure the target is worth the ammo you are wasting.
every carebear would be ok if lowsec only had proper wars and proper piracy. it's the senseless PKing that's the problem.
What the ****ing **** is PKing? peacekeeping? podkilling? You are stupid if you lose a pod in low sec. lol. There is no way that you can determine whether a target is worth killing. Even if you wanted to ship/cargo scan people there is no way that you could scan every single one and it is quite likely that they would then be alerted to something unusual going on. There is just no way to determine if a target will be profitable without killing or ransoming them. It would also be pretty stupid to leave someone right there next to you so they can cyno in their friend's cap fleet.
You and your ilk are just clueless. Sit down, and listen to the adults(Bellum, Branko, et al.)
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Lucy'Lastic
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Posted - 2008.08.11 22:46:00 -
[174]
HP buff was because CCP wanted fights to last longer.
Speed nerf is because CCP want people to commit to a fight.
WTZ was done because of all the bookmarks people had creating lag.
Web nerf is puzzling. I need to check it on Sisi.
Suicide gank nerf was done to prevent 'ganking for lulz' because people abused the insurance system. It was NOT done to protect afk haulers, billion isk CNRs, freighters piloted by out of corp alts in NPC corps and BPO hauling shuttles. If that where CCPs intention they would have made it impossible to fire on a target in Empire.
For anybody that thought 'Ganking for lulz' in Hisec was part of the 'Cold Harsh Universe' that CCP created and was an 'intended feature' of allowing us to suicide gank people in Hisec- CCP just told you that you're wrong.
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Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
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Posted - 2008.08.11 22:51:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Lucy'Lastic
Suicide gank nerf was done to prevent 'ganking for lulz' because people abused the insurance system. It was NOT done to protect afk haulers, billion isk CNRs, freighters piloted by out of corp alts in NPC corps and BPO hauling shuttles.
That's pretty funny, because that's exactly what it does.
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Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2008.08.11 22:54:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I'm not going to state my opinion about where I think it's headed however.
Stopped reading right there.
If you don't have an opinion that you are going to post on then why even start a thread ?
--
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Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
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Posted - 2008.08.11 22:56:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I'm not going to state my opinion about where I think it's headed however.
Stopped reading right there.
If you don't have an opinion that you are going to post on then why even start a thread ?
If you had continued reading you probably would have understood the post. Just saying.
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DaDutchDude
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Posted - 2008.08.11 23:31:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Garreck
You can't patch a power-gamer. Power-gamers who care about their wallet will find ways to maximize profit with minimal risk. Power-gamers who care about pvp will find ways to maximise k/d ratio at minimal risk. People can talk about wanting "good, fun fights" all they want...but it's just talk. In the end, people want to "win" (which can mean a dozen different things in a game like Eve: retaining space in 0.0, having a kick-ass k/d ratio, having a big wallet, whatever) and will take whatever means possible to do that.
The more Eve changes, the more it stays the same really.
What he said ^^
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Doctor Hourai
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Posted - 2008.08.11 23:47:00 -
[179]
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto
What a festival of ignorance. I have not seen so many clueless, fruity carebears in my entire eve career.
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
killing evrything that jumps through a gate is not piracy. Piracy by definition has economic(sp?) motives behind. that includes making sure the target is worth the ammo you are wasting.
every carebear would be ok if lowsec only had proper wars and proper piracy. it's the senseless PKing that's the problem.
What the ****ing **** is PKing? peacekeeping? podkilling? You are stupid if you lose a pod in low sec. lol. There is no way that you can determine whether a target is worth killing. Even if you wanted to ship/cargo scan people there is no way that you could scan every single one and it is quite likely that they would then be alerted to something unusual going on. There is just no way to determine if a target will be profitable without killing or ransoming them. It would also be pretty stupid to leave someone right there next to you so they can cyno in their friend's cap fleet.
You and your ilk are just clueless. Sit down, and listen to the adults(Bellum, Branko, et al.)
HAHAHA yes this moron again. No PKing is a term derived from Runescape (run, escape) meaning player killing. idiots and 5 year olds play runescape.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.08.12 00:38:00 -
[180]
OP failed to mention a very significant change that really affected PVP opportunities, though they were both buffs rather than nerfs. Jump Drives really reduced traffic at the same time introduced hot dropping and resulted in blob to win 0.0 mentality.
Before everyone had carriers, you had to transport ships, modules an materials through 0.0 and low sec. now you just have to blob out a couple systems and you can move everything without much risk.
hot dropping also reduced PVP, why bother to engage with anything near even odds if you don't have a fleet of caps standing by.
If there was one change that have dramatic increase in PVP it would be to remove the jump drives (and jump bridges) from the game.
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