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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 10:40:00 - [1] So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill when I started thinking about the upcoming patch, how it's going to affect PVP in general, and how all the previous patches have affected PVP. I'm not going to state my opinion about where I think it's headed however. I just want to put some facts out there and their contributions to PVP in general: (sort of in order by date, oldest first) Hitpoint buff, then HP buff again: increased the time required to kill a target. More targets escape destruction. T2 Ammo damage reduction (by some 20%+): all T2 ammo, long range and short ranged reduced in peak DPS and volley DPS. More targets escape destruction. Warp to zero: targets either become invulnerable, warping straight from gate to station and back, or are only able to be attacked as they're jumping away from a gate, not into it. Excludes 0.0 bubble camps. More targets escape destruction. Rigs are introduced: peak tank DPS and static HP skyrocket, peak speeds go insane, peak DPS remain static. More targets escape destruction. The upcoming web nerf: few ships will be able to fit more than one web, or both web and 9km scram at the same time. Targets will MWD, AB or simply float back to gates and jump out, escaping destruction. More targets escape. Ok, so remember when I said I wouldn't give my own opinon about all of this earlier? Well, I lied. I can't let the masses come to their own conclusion. Everyone is too stupid to arrive at the correct answer. Fortunately you have me here to do your thinking for you. \o/ Eve is moving further and further away from nonconsentual combat. Offensive ship capabilities continue to get compromised while defense is improved over and over again. Webs are key to holding a target away from it's avenue of escape long enough to kill it. Now this will be defunct as well. 0.0 guys will have less of a problem with this than lowsec and empire war players, but it will still be somewhat of an issue. One of the main reasons that high sec ganking has become so popular is that it's the only way for attackers to access the ISK rich targets that never ever stray into their combat environment for any reason. They're not even able to be war decced the majority of the time due to NPC corps. Am I saying that the game is doomed and coming to an end? Of course not. But I am saying that if you're a PVPer and you like killing other players for fun or profit, you're going to be liking the results less and less. Just wait till this time next year and you're able to recount all the stories about the one's that got away instead of the ones you killed. CCP continues to reinforce the safety of those who wish to avoid PVP at all costs while doing it at the expense of the rest of the PVP crowd, regardless of what venue they PVP in, whether it be 0.0, low sec or empire. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Sylek Amarr The Fated	Posted - 2008.08.11 10:49:00 - [2] Bellum Eternus is my hero. __________________ My newest video: Death Proof
Tzigan Jegos Dirty Gypsies Trading Co.	Posted - 2008.08.11 10:53:00 - [3] tl;dr version Last patches nerfed combat and made it easier to escape pvp. hp buff, t2 ammo dmg nerf, warp to zero, hp/speed rigs, web nerf. Eve is moving further and further away from nonconsentual combat. Offensive ship capabilities continue to get compromised while defense is improved over and over again. CCP continues to reinforce the safety of those who wish to avoid PVP The dog that trots about finds a bone. - Gypsy proverb
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.11 10:54:00 - [4] So you joined the whining piwat ranks too ? I thought you'd know better. It seems that the "happy ganker" attitude is starting to show more and more often with more people joining EvE. I've been playing this game for some time now and never had any problem with pirates and such, not even on the forums. Yet lately some whines are too much for my liking. There are more and more kiddies here that think making the game miserable for everybody else is great fun. That attitude will kill EvE a lot faster than CCP nerfs. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Fedor Emilianenko	Posted - 2008.08.11 10:55:00 - [5] Edited by: Fedor Emilianenko on 11/08/2008 10:55:45 My thoughts exactly. All well said, OP.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.08.11 10:57:00 - [6] Agreed. The game is moving in the wrong direction. We are moving away from combat-oriented gameplay of all types. Did you even mention all the war dec changes?
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 10:59:00 - [7] tl;dr version: Suicide ganker whines he hasnt total risk free profit. Did it ever occur to you that a 1 minute long fight is more fun for both the loser and the winner than a 7 second fight where the winner alpha strikes the loser? Which brings us to point 2, the only pvp you know is ganking unarmed haulers without any risk someone shoots you, that doesnt make it the only form of pvp in eve...
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I can't let the masses come to their own conclusion. Everyone is too stupid to arrive at the correct answer. Numpty EVE is changing, you have to change with it or GTFO ...
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:01:00 - [9] Originally by: Furb Killer tl;dr version: Suicide ganker whines he hasnt total risk free profit. Did it ever occur to you that a 1 minute long fight is more fun for both the loser and the winner than a 7 second fight where the winner alpha strikes the loser? Which brings us to point 2, the only pvp you know is ganking unarmed haulers without any risk someone shoots you, that doesnt make it the only form of pvp in eve... LOL NUB. Go to the video section of the forum and check out how bellum fights.
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Bellum Eternus So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill... Have you tried other forms of PVP besides ganking untanked AFK haulers in hi sec? I hear in low sec there's plenty of PVP to be had.

Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:03:00 - [11] Many valid points. Does seem that it will become far too easy to escape a pvp situation now. I dont even think I could do a bit of solo pvp if the web changes go ahead targets would just be able to run back to any gate far more easily then it is as of now. My main concern at the moment is how safe and rich high sec space is.
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:03:00 - [12] Originally by: Arctur Ceti Originally by: Bellum Eternus So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill... Have you tried other forms of PVP besides ganking untanked AFK haulers in hi sec? I hear in low sec there's plenty of PVP to be had. ******.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:04:00 - [13] While I agree with the OP in principle regarding the direction of the game… Originally by: Bellum Eternus Rigs are introduced: peak tank DPS and static HP skyrocket, peak speeds go insane, peak DPS remain static. More targets escape destruction. The upcoming web nerf: few ships will be able to fit more than one web, or both web and 9km scram at the same time. Targets will MWD, AB or simply float back to gates and jump out, escaping destruction. More targets escape. …rigs also introduced ways of boosting your DPS, and the upcoming "nerfs" also boost a number of previously useless combat ships.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Many valid points. Does seem that it will become far too easy to escape a pvp situation now. I dont even think I could do a bit of solo pvp if the web changes go ahead targets would just be able to run back to any gate far more easily then it is as of now. My main concern at the moment is how safe and rich high sec space is. How is that a problem exactly?
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:05:00 - [15] Encourages blobing.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:05:00 - [16] You forgot CCP approved logofksi Removal of aggro timer from one system to the next Insta warp transport buff Macherial nerf (incoming) for carrier invulnerabilty Nomad implants Cloak MWD Jump Freighters cyno to dock And many more. Yes CCP are lame. They love the bear-bucks though. SKUNK
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:05:00 - [17] concerning the being unable to wardec npc corp players and thier 'invulnerability' to pvp, there should be a new mechanic in place now that fw is here in that if you dont leave your noob starting corp after 3 months you are automatically enlisted by your factions militia and put in the militia corp until you find a player corp to join.
Tzigan Jegos Dirty Gypsies Trading Co.	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate My main concern at the moment is how safe and rich high sec space is. Too safe. Too rich. Make all hi sec agents quality -15 and all low sec ones +20
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Hugh Ruka So you joined the whining piwat ranks too ? I thought you'd know better. It seems that the "happy ganker" attitude is starting to show more and more often with more people joining EvE. I've been playing this game for some time now and never had any problem with pirates and such, not even on the forums. Yet lately some whines are too much for my liking. There are more and more kiddies here that think making the game miserable for everybody else is great fun. That attitude will kill EvE a lot faster than CCP nerfs. Whining pirate ranks? (I refuse to misspell 'pirate' like a drooling inbred six year old). Everyone has the exact same opportunity to kill everyone else. That's what makes Eve such a great game. If I wanted safety and boredom, I'd go play WoW. I hate WoW. WoW ****ing sucks. Why? Because all the stupid people can do just as well as all the really smart people. Why? Because it's too simple and easy. I'm not whining. I'm just making an observation. I never said 'buhu I'm quitting, CCP is ruining my fun'. I'll adapt and inflict pain and misery on carebears regardless of what CCP does until they remove nonconsentual PVP completely. At which point I'll cash out and go do something else. It seems that the "whiney carebear" attitude is starting to show more and more often with more people joining EvE. I've been playing this game for some time now and never had any problem with loser carebears and such, not even on the forums. Yet lately some whines are too much for my liking. There are more and more kiddies here that think making the game safer for everybody is great fun. That attitude will kill EvE a lot faster than CCP nerfs.
Kristina Jackson	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Sylek Bellum Eternus is "young adult" whose not got enough life experience to realise that he's not as smart as he thinks he is. There, that's much better

Vladimir Griftin	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:07:00 - [21] All the hitpoint buffs and damage nerfs did was make fights last longer. Thats a GOOD thing, longer fights = more room for tactical gameplay. Your looking at the web nerf the wrong way, the nano nerf is actually designed to get you MORE fights. It stops people running away at ludicrous uncatchable speeds.
Ebodhisatva The Templars Knights	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:07:00 - [22] Quote: The upcoming web nerf: few ships will be able to fit more than one web, or both web and 9km scram at the same time. Targets will MWD, AB or simply float back to gates and jump out, escaping destruction. More targets escape. IIRC the scram has changed also: If you are scrammed, you will not be able to use your MWD. (not that this differs to the OP's subject)
Fedor Emilianenko	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:08:00 - [23] Rather than simply flaming the OP with a very simple statement on what he is and that that is bad, some of us here need to learn how to debate. Ok I will give you a clue... You have to raise the same points he raised and then argue why they are not to be seen in the same light that he sees them. Go on I dare you, use that brain!
Sylek Amarr The Fated	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:10:00 - [24] Originally by: Kristina Jackson Originally by: Sylek Bellum Eternus is "young adult" whose not got enough life experience to realise that he's not as smart as he thinks he is. There, that's much better Dude, don't make me sound so intelligent. __________________ My newest video: Death Proof
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Tippia While I agree with the OP in principle regarding the direction of the gameà Originally by: Bellum Eternus Rigs are introduced: peak tank DPS and static HP skyrocket, peak speeds go insane, peak DPS remain static. More targets escape destruction. The upcoming web nerf: few ships will be able to fit more than one web, or both web and 9km scram at the same time. Targets will MWD, AB or simply float back to gates and jump out, escaping destruction. More targets escape. àrigs also introduced ways of boosting your DPS, and the upcoming "nerfs" also boost a number of previously useless combat ships. Incorrect my friend. Notice I said 'peak' DPS. Whether you add damage mods or rigs or a combination of the two, your absolute peak DPS won't change much before or after rigs due to the compound stacking of damage rigs and damage mods, and the fact that rigs only affect one damage bonus or another (ROF or damage), and not both at once like damage mods do. Prior to rigs, there was zero way to increase your peak DPS/sec tank other than to add another rep, another shield booster, or another shield boost amp (or resists etc.). Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:10:00 - [26] He is only looking at ganking unarmed or totally outgunned targets, he isnt looking at 'fair' fights. Sure if you just want easy kills you dont like more HP, i personally prefer a real fight where both sides get kills or in a 1v1 where both sides end in hull than easy kills. Then i really enjoy longer fights alot more than dieing in seconds.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:13:00 - [27] Originally by: Ebodhisatva Quote: The upcoming web nerf: few ships will be able to fit more than one web, or both web and 9km scram at the same time. Targets will MWD, AB or simply float back to gates and jump out, escaping destruction. More targets escape. IIRC the scram has changed also: If you are scrammed, you will not be able to use your MWD. (not that this differs to the OP's subject) Um, what? I just said that. Solo PVPers will need both a web and a 9km scram (in addition to a 24km point) to stop MWD ships from escaping, by deactivating their MWD and then webbing them to 50%. If they have an AB, they'll escape regardless. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:13:00 - [28] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'll adapt and inflict pain and misery on carebears regardless of what CCP does until they remove nonconsentual PVP completely. That's your problem right there. This isn't the game you think it is.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Incorrect my friend. Notice I said 'peak' DPS. Bah! Details! Ok, ok… conceded.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:14:00 - [30] Originally by: Furb Killer He is only looking at ganking unarmed or totally outgunned targets, he isnt looking at 'fair' fights. Sure if you just want easy kills you dont like more HP, i personally prefer a real fight where both sides get kills or in a 1v1 where both sides end in hull than easy kills. Then i really enjoy longer fights alot more than dieing in seconds. You in a 0.0 alliance to be fair. PVP on easy mode. Oh and it looks like a lot of your kills were 20 man ganks :)) SKUNK

Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Arctur Ceti Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'll adapt and inflict pain and misery on carebears regardless of what CCP does until they remove nonconsentual PVP completely. That's your problem right there. This isn't the game you think it is. Care to fill in some details? What game is it exactly? Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:15:00 - [32] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Ebodhisatva Quote: The upcoming web nerf: few ships will be able to fit more than one web, or both web and 9km scram at the same time. Targets will MWD, AB or simply float back to gates and jump out, escaping destruction. More targets escape. IIRC the scram has changed also: If you are scrammed, you will not be able to use your MWD. (not that this differs to the OP's subject) Um, what? I just said that. Solo PVPers will need both a web and a 9km scram (in addition to a 24km point) to stop MWD ships from escaping, by deactivating their MWD and then webbing them to 50%. If they have an AB, they'll escape regardless. 2xwebs really tbh SKUNK
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:15:00 - [33] Nonconsensual combat usually is only valid in an situation where one of the parties is inexperienced. With experienced players, they often know the risks, and know how to assess and avoid the risks. Most fights there are at least semi-consensual. CCP's goal is to provide an interesting PvP experience to as many players as possible. Interesting PvP experiences are usually those where the choices you make can actually influence the outcome (usually escape in non-consensual combat, rarely victory). Hence CCP continually tries to buff options that give targets of non-consensual PvP more options (to escape or prevail through reinforcements). This should also strive to make things more interesting for the attackers, since the outcome is less predetermined at the time the engagement starts. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:15:00 - [34] Quote: Rigs are introduced: peak tank DPS and static HP skyrocket, peak speeds go insane, peak DPS remain static. More targets escape destruction. How about you just fit some gun/missile rigs then... For web..targets will MWD? How..with the scrambled MWD that doesnt work? Go back and study on your homework. You have plenty of other flaws aswell. -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Fedor Emilianenko	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:15:00 - [35] Killing untanked Furbs is easy too I imagine. Damn, the character assassination style of personal attack seems infectious.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:17:00 - [36] Originally by: Tippia rigs also introduced ways of boosting your DPS, and the upcoming "nerfs" also boost a number of previously useless combat ships. The dps rigs are in general not really worth it with the penalties they get and the stacking penalties. The upcoming nerfs make more ships/setup worthless than it boosts. Originally by: Vladimir Griftin All the hitpoint buffs and damage nerfs did was make fights last longer. Thats a GOOD thing, longer fights = more room for tactical gameplay. Your looking at the web nerf the wrong way, the nano nerf is actually designed to get you MORE fights. It stops people running away at ludicrous uncatchable speeds. More hp does not equal longer fights, only more time to dock/jump etc. The nano nerf gets you fewer fights, not more. They will just be more careful about when they engage. Vote against the nano nerf!
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:17:00 - [37] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 11/08/2008 11:18:10 CCP is a business and will pander to the side of eve that makes more money, regardless of forum presence. EVE is (guessing) 60% isk farmers 30% carebears 10% PVPers :\ www.siigarikitawa.com
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:18:00 - [38] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: Arctur Ceti Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'll adapt and inflict pain and misery on carebears regardless of what CCP does until they remove nonconsentual PVP completely. That's your problem right there. This isn't the game you think it is. Care to fill in some details? What game is it exactly? His fun dervies from making others miserable. Looks like he's in init for the grief. CCP has been clear on their griefing policy for some time now. No misery and pain on others kills his fun. This isn't his game.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:18:00 - [39] Originally by: Furb Killer He is only looking at ganking unarmed or totally outgunned targets, he isnt looking at 'fair' fights. Sure if you just want easy kills you dont like more HP, i personally prefer a real fight where both sides get kills or in a 1v1 where both sides end in hull than easy kills. Then i really enjoy longer fights alot more than dieing in seconds. No, I'm not. The first thing people like yourself do is discount my position by implying that I'm not looking for 'real' PVP (whatever that is). This is what is known as setting up a Straw Man argument, which is only done by people who are generally large piles of shit. Now that that is out of the way, I enjoy longer fights as well, but the coming changes arn't going to help anyone get into longer fights. The fights will be over as soon as the agressor loses lock as the target jumps back through a gate. CCP could compensate for this by locking players out of jumping back through the same gate for 120 seconds (two minutes) or doing the same for stations as well to compensate for the lack of webbing and make players commit to an action. But of course this won't happen. Note in my post that I said this affects all PVPers, regardless of what style or form of PVP they partake in. I specifically said this so @ssholes like yourself wouldn't make personal attacks and accuse me straight away of 'not knowing how to PVP' or 'only looking for easy ganks'. Anyone who says such a thing clearly doesn't know WTF they're talking about. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:19:00 - [40] Quote: One of the main reasons that high sec ganking has become so popular is that it's the only way for attackers to access the ISK rich targets that never ever stray into their combat environment for any reason. They're not even able to be war decced the majority of the time due to NPC corps. Eitehr you are just whining without a clue. Because you want riskfree juicy target in highsec where others dont touch you. So who got the risk now? Also you obviously dont know the risk in trading and such. You think marketmanipulation and production is pure risk free? Do you think they are all so ISK loaded they can buy anything? Oh boy you are clueless. -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry

Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:19:00 - [41] Originally by: Arctur Ceti Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'll adapt and inflict pain and misery on carebears regardless of what CCP does until they remove nonconsentual PVP completely. That's your problem right there. This isn't the game you think it is. This is EVE, the game I was told years ago that I could do almost anything I wanted. Well that's getting harder and harder nowadays. I don't know what to make of the web nerf tbh. Lowsec gate camping is gonna be extremely difficult to stop a ship MWDing back to the gate. Infact it will be next to impossible to stop if they are prepared. But this might be a blessing forcing people to actually do some real PVP as I'm utterly bored of gate camping trying to find some PVP. Also - I agree totally that this game is going the way of the carebear and anyone who can't see it is probably a carebear.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:20:00 - [42] Originally by: Shintai Quote: Rigs are introduced: peak tank DPS and static HP skyrocket, peak speeds go insane, peak DPS remain static. More targets escape destruction. How about you just fit some gun/missile rigs then... For web..targets will MWD? How..with the scrambled MWD that doesnt work? Go back and study on your homework. You have plenty of other flaws aswell. Target uncloaks 15 km from gate... this is outside of your scram range baring having a lachesis there. So you bring a lachesis. Target has warpcore stabs, so you need a hic. So you bring a broadsword. Lachesis has weak tank vs sentries. So you bring a remote rep bs. You also need some DPS. So you bring a DPS BS. People like to hotdrop your ass So you bring a falcon Now youve got 5 dudes needed to camp. You get called blobbing pirates and come out to 0.0 and fight like a real man etc. LOLOLOL SKUNK
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:20:00 - [43] How is that pvp on easy mode? It isnt like we are somewhere in middle of 0.0 where everyone arround us is blue and once in a while we do some pos busting. I got enough solo kills, allthough lately and having been in militia too many were in fleets. But when enemy also has a similar fleet it can show as 20 vs 1 kill, but we also had 20 of them firing on us. Not to mention the absolute requirement to be able to do small scale pvp according to many here, the nano ship, makes sure i miss alot of kills. Last fight i got was harbinger vs ishtar, i ended in hull, he ended in warp since there is no way i can kill a nano ship alone.
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:20:00 - [44] Originally by: Shintai Quote: Rigs are introduced: peak tank DPS and static HP skyrocket, peak speeds go insane, peak DPS remain static. More targets escape destruction. How about you just fit some gun/missile rigs then... For web..targets will MWD? How..with the scrambled MWD that doesnt work? Go back and study on your homework. You have plenty of other flaws aswell. unplug your keyboard
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:21:00 - [45] Originally by: Arctur Ceti Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: Arctur Ceti Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'll adapt and inflict pain and misery on carebears regardless of what CCP does until they remove nonconsentual PVP completely. That's your problem right there. This isn't the game you think it is. Care to fill in some details? What game is it exactly? His fun dervies from making others miserable. Looks like he's in init for the grief. CCP has been clear on their griefing policy for some time now. No misery and pain on others kills his fun. This isn't his game. I like making ISK. If I happen to specialize in turning carebear blood into ISK, then so be it. There is no such thing as 'griefing' in Eve. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:21:00 - [46] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Everyone has the exact same opportunity to kill everyone else. That's what makes Eve such a great game. If I wanted safety and boredom, I'd go play WoW. I hate WoW. WoW ****ing sucks. Why? Because all the stupid people can do just as well as all the really smart people. Why? Because it's too simple and easy. Bolded important part. Many people forget that the majority of the MMO folks are ones that want to build something. It is the same as real life actualy. You can't change human nature. Destruction is easy compared to creation. That's why people are risk averse. It takes longer to gain something than to loose. What CCP is doing is just to give everybody about the same fighting chance. Even the inexperienced have more time to react and more options to respond. Not just "Oh F<BOOM>". Go play some FPS if you want instant PvP without restrictions. An RPG is not the correct game type for that. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:22:00 - [47] Originally by: Lorz0r Originally by: Shintai Quote: Rigs are introduced: peak tank DPS and static HP skyrocket, peak speeds go insane, peak DPS remain static. More targets escape destruction. How about you just fit some gun/missile rigs then... For web..targets will MWD? How..with the scrambled MWD that doesnt work? Go back and study on your homework. You have plenty of other flaws aswell. unplug your keyboard How about you do us all a favour and try it first. And read the upcoming changes. -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:22:00 - [48] Edited by: VicturusTeSaluto on 11/08/2008 11:23:20 Originally by: Arctur Ceti Originally by: Bellum Eternus So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill... Have you tried other forms of PVP besides ganking untanked AFK haulers in hi sec? I hear in low sec there's plenty of PVP to be had. Are you quite deaf and blind? He is not talking about suicide ganking, he is talking about the overall direction of the entirety of the gameplay. Originally by: Tippia rigs also introduced ways of boosting your DPS. damage rigs are mostly useless due to the drawbacks.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:23:00 - [49] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Um, what? I just said that. Solo PVPers will need both a web and a 9km scram (in addition to a 24km point) to stop MWD ships from escaping, by deactivating their MWD and then webbing them to 50%. If they have an AB, they'll escape regardless. You're still talking about being caught at a gate, here, I presume?
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:25:00 - [50] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Furb Killer He is only looking at ganking unarmed or totally outgunned targets, he isnt looking at 'fair' fights. Sure if you just want easy kills you dont like more HP, i personally prefer a real fight where both sides get kills or in a 1v1 where both sides end in hull than easy kills. Then i really enjoy longer fights alot more than dieing in seconds. No, I'm not. The first thing people like yourself do is discount my position by implying that I'm not looking for 'real' PVP (whatever that is). This is what is known as setting up a Straw Man argument, which is only done by people who are generally large piles of shit. Now that that is out of the way, I enjoy longer fights as well, but the coming changes arn't going to help anyone get into longer fights. The fights will be over as soon as the agressor loses lock as the target jumps back through a gate. CCP could compensate for this by locking players out of jumping back through the same gate for 120 seconds (two minutes) or doing the same for stations as well to compensate for the lack of webbing and make players commit to an action. But of course this won't happen. Note in my post that I said this affects all PVPers, regardless of what style or form of PVP they partake in. I specifically said this so @ssholes like yourself wouldn't make personal attacks and accuse me straight away of 'not knowing how to PVP' or 'only looking for easy ganks'. Anyone who says such a thing clearly doesn't know WTF they're talking about. I said real fights, not real pvp. But changing what i said makes it much easier to set up a straw man argument i suppose. So again, the problem is that you totally outgun your opponent, otherwise he wouldnt run but fight. (btw i thought that not being able to run when totally outgunned with nano nerf was what was going to kill pvp and we had to whine about). Or just make them initiate self destruct when you come withing 30km of their ship, even easier... Again, i never said you didnt know how to pvp, again you are accusing me of stuff i never said. This indeed affects me when pvp'ing also. In a positive way...

Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:25:00 - [51] Originally by: Furb Killer He is only looking at ganking unarmed or totally outgunned targets, he isnt looking at 'fair' fights. Sure if you just want easy kills you dont like more HP, i personally prefer a real fight where both sides get kills or in a 1v1 where both sides end in hull than easy kills. Then i really enjoy longer fights alot more than dieing in seconds. Do you PvP much? I fly more and more full out gank ships. Do you care to know why? Simple. A ship which takes a minute or more to gank a ship of its size generally gets ganked a ton when soloing, because support has time to arrive from the neighboring system and gank you. HP buffs/slowing down fights/WTZ for fast travel/lowering damage while boosting EHP and tank with rigs all had the effect of promoting very fun and skilled bait and blob tactics. Sure, I enjoy a tactical 1v1, but I prefer to gank the target in 30s flat in a paper-thin ship because that way I have a chance to kill the target (or die) without his mates hopping in from the system nextdoor. The reality of PvP is that the more time your target has to live, the more likely you are to get jumped by the guy's mates, which promotes the skillfull 1v1s you're talking about, right? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:26:00 - [52] Originally by: Shintai Originally by: Lorz0r Originally by: Shintai Quote: Rigs are introduced: peak tank DPS and static HP skyrocket, peak speeds go insane, peak DPS remain static. More targets escape destruction. How about you just fit some gun/missile rigs then... For web..targets will MWD? How..with the scrambled MWD that doesnt work? Go back and study on your homework. You have plenty of other flaws aswell. unplug your keyboard How about you do us all a favour and try it first. And read the upcoming changes. He's trying to do you a favor by keeping you from showing everyone just how much of a f#ckup you really are. Pat him on the back for trying to help. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:26:00 - [53] Originally by: Bellum Eternus There is no such thing as 'griefing' in Eve. And as long as you continue believing that you'll be miserable with Eve's direction. That is your problem right there. Again, this isn't the game you think it is.
Forge Lag	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:27:00 - [54] Originally by: Merdaneth CCP's goal is to provide an interesting PvP experience to as many players as possible. Interesting PvP experiences are usually those where the choices you make can actually influence the outcome (usually escape in non-consensual combat, rarely victory). Hence CCP continually tries to buff options that give targets of non-consensual PvP more options (to escape or prevail through reinforcements). This is the important part. Also note CCP nerfs the options to escape consensual combat this very moment. The "piwate whiners" are right though that there are no incentives for many people to engage in PvP. Ganking defenseless targets will not help this issue though.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:28:00 - [55] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Furb Killer He is only looking at ganking unarmed or totally outgunned targets, he isnt looking at 'fair' fights. Sure if you just want easy kills you dont like more HP, i personally prefer a real fight where both sides get kills or in a 1v1 where both sides end in hull than easy kills. Then i really enjoy longer fights alot more than dieing in seconds. Do you PvP much? I fly more and more full out gank ships. Do you care to know why? Simple. A ship which takes a minute or more to gank a ship of its size generally gets ganked a ton when soloing, because support has time to arrive from the neighboring system and gank you. HP buffs/slowing down fights/WTZ for fast travel/lowering damage while boosting EHP and tank with rigs all had the effect of promoting very fun and skilled bait and blob tactics. Sure, I enjoy a tactical 1v1, but I prefer to gank the target in 30s flat in a paper-thin ship because that way I have a chance to kill the target (or die) without his mates hopping in from the system nextdoor. The reality of PvP is that the more time your target has to live, the more likely you are to get jumped by the guy's mates, which promotes the skillfull 1v1s you're talking about, right? No shit, in a fight it is always watching local when his friends arrive, but even in best case it will take them at least 1 minute to arrive, which is assuming they were allready in pvp ships in system next door and alligned to right gate.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:29:00 - [56] Originally by: Furb Killer How is that pvp on easy mode? It isnt like we are somewhere in middle of 0.0 where everyone arround us is blue and once in a while we do some pos busting. I got enough solo kills, allthough lately and having been in militia too many were in fleets. But when enemy also has a similar fleet it can show as 20 vs 1 kill, but we also had 20 of them firing on us. Not to mention the absolute requirement to be able to do small scale pvp according to many here, the nano ship, makes sure i miss alot of kills. Last fight i got was harbinger vs ishtar, i ended in hull, he ended in warp since there is no way i can kill a nano ship alone. Why is 0.0 pvp on easy mode. Well briefly 1) No sentry guns. This enables you to use the full range of ships and fittings the game provides. 2) No sec drops - you can pirate under the NBSI cop out all you want and still get into hig sec when you need to churn through some lv4s. There is no consequences for your action and you dont have to stand by your decisions 3)Bubbles - The ultimate in no skill pvp. 4) FC Drone Bay - when the blobs form up - your an extended drone bay for the FC. No initiative is needed. No skill is needed. No thought is needed. Warp to where the fc says, shoot at what the fc says, retreat when the fc says. 5)Epic Lag - the only thing hard about 0.0 pvp is putting up with lag - and the amount of 0.0ers that put up with epic lag fests again and again and again shows truely how brain dead they are. SKUNK
ArmyOfMe Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:30:00 - [57] eve pvp is headed towards 0,0 only sadly. almost every nerf in pvp boosts larger blobs and alliances in 0,0 while killing piracy one step at a time
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Furb Killer So again, the problem is that you totally outgun your opponent, otherwise he wouldnt run but fight. (btw i thought that not being able to run when totally outgunned with nano nerf was what was going to kill pvp and we had to whine about). In the EVE i play people must be tricked into attacking if they dont outgun you. There is no such thing as fair fights. Vote against the nano nerf!
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:30:00 - [59] What i really like to know, there seems to be two opinions here: Eve is going to die/suck because people cant escape from blobs. In other words: Nanos cant escape when jumping into a larger fleet. Eve is going to die/suck because people can escape non consensual combat. In other words: Ships can escape when jumping into a larger fleet (or at least when they are outgunned). I like to know which one exactly is the reason eve is going to die/suck.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:33:00 - [60] Originally by: Furb Killer What i really like to know, there seems to be two opinions here: Eve is going to die/suck because people cant escape from blobs. In other words: Nanos cant escape when jumping into a larger fleet. Eve is going to die/suck because people can escape non consensual combat. In other words: Ships can escape when jumping into a larger fleet (or at least when they are outgunned). I like to know which one exactly is the reason eve is going to die/suck. /thread and sig material --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !

Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:35:00 - [61] Quote: 1) No sentry guns. This enables you to use the full range of ships and fittings the game provides. So pvp is easier because you can use all ships? WTF... Quote: No sec drops - you can pirate under the NBSI cop out all you want and still get into hig sec when you need to churn through some lv4s. There is no consequences for your action and you dont have to stand by your decisions Luckily the -10 pirates care alot about the sec drop they get. Oh wait, they dont give a crap. There are consequences, for example those red ships on your overview shooting you. And again i have pvp'ed a long time in low sec without the need to let my sec rating drop. Sure i have had GCC often enough, but sometimes killing a ship and sometimes being the one who is attacked by a pirate + faction war targets + -10 pirates as target made sure that i had no issues at all to keep my sec rating positive. Quote: Bubbles - The ultimate in no skill pvp. Wait i thought eve was dieing because people could escape non consensual pvp. Now being able to prevent them for escaping is skilless? This is getting really confusing. Quote: FC Drone Bay - when the blobs form up - your an extended drone bay for the FC. No initiative is needed. No skill is needed. No thought is needed. Warp to where the fc says, shoot at what the fc says, retreat when the fc says. Could be, didnt do that much blobs. Quote: Epic Lag - the only thing hard about 0.0 pvp is putting up with lag - and the amount of 0.0ers that put up with epic lag fests again and again and again shows truely how brain dead they are. Serious come to 0.0 and find out that not everything is blob warfare everywhere. Havent had any trouble yet with lag in 0.0.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:36:00 - [62] Originally by: Furb Killer misc. crap... Debating stuff with people like yourself is impossible, but I'll try. Example: just the other day I killed a Myrmidon with my Sentinel. Why? Because I like testing the limits of what I can do in PVP. My goal is to kill a BS with it eventually, if I can find one that will hold still long enough, and that isn't on a gate or a station so that I can engage it with a =frig=. 99.99% of my kills are at a gate or station because I have to force fights. Not with carebear mission runners, but with all the 'hardcore PVPers' out there 'looking for fights'. 99% of the people I run into that are pvp equipped are looking to kill someone 12 on 1, not actually get into a fight. Today in fact I sat on the otherside of a highsec gate in lowsec with four people in my gang waiting for a twelve person gang to jump in and attack. They didn't. Their excuse when I asked them why they didn't engage? 'We were waiting for you to jump into us'. I'm a pirate. I'm -10. They're in high sec. They know all of this. TBH it's crap like this that is making a lot of pirates rat their sec back up so that they can war dec people like that and bring the fight to them regardless of system security. But I hear that's being nerfed too. Again, the point of my post was this: be warned PVPers, regardless of how you choose to PVP, your PVP is going to be increasingly limited as to where when and how you can fight, with the target having more and more of a say in how that happens. And you're telling me that I'm wrong? SHOW me why that above statement is just flat out wrong. Please. Show me one thing that CCP has done to -increase- the ability for people to attack other people. Increase offensive oriented combat. Increase the opportunities to kill people (in the game, lol?). I'm very interested to hear your examples. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:38:00 - [63] Edited by: Furb Killer on 11/08/2008 11:38:57 Heavy interdictors... Quote: 99.99% of my kills are at a gate or station because I have to force fights. Not with carebear mission runners, but with all the 'hardcore PVPers' out there 'looking for fights'. 99% of the people I run into that are pvp equipped are looking to kill someone 12 on 1, not actually get into a fight. Today in fact I sat on the otherside of a highsec gate in lowsec with four people in my gang waiting for a twelve person gang to jump in and attack. They didn't. And you are equipped to kill people 4 vs 1. How is that so much better than 12 vs 1? And when i look at your recent kills most of them were either unarmed, had pve fitting, or might as well have had no fitting.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:39:00 - [64] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/08/2008 11:44:06 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/08/2008 11:43:21 Originally by: Furb Killer No shit, in a fight it is always watching local when his friends arrive, but even in best case it will take them at least 1 minute to arrive, which is assuming they were allready in pvp ships in system next door and alligned to right gate. At least 1 minute in best case? Who do you fight, Hydra or something? If you're not done (read: warping out already) in a minute, then you're going to die if the guy has mates. So boosting EHP/tank + nerfing tackle capability of solo ships is good how? If that's the desirable direction for EvE PVP, then I'm glad I'm in a corp which doesn't mind blobbing/hotdropping targets, because I'll still be able to PvP successfully even if they nerf gank even more. I hear it's exciting and tactical, too. Originally by: Furb Quote: Bubbles - The ultimate in no skill pvp. Wait i thought eve was dieing because people could escape non consensual pvp. Now being able to prevent them for escaping is skilless? This is getting really confusing. See, low-sec options for preventing people escaping are getting diminished even more, and even before they were not nearly as efficent as bubbles, not even close (not to mention, you can't use interceptors/etc in low-sec on gates or stations, unless you're ganking pirates). Originally by: Arctur Ceti Oh hai, I did not read the manual of the game I'm playing, and I'm too scared to post with my main. Well, read the manual and post with your main. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:39:00 - [65] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Furb Killer misc. crap... Debating stuff with people like yourself is impossible, but I'll try. Example: just the other day I killed a Myrmidon with my Sentinel. Why? Because I like testing the limits of what I can do in PVP. My goal is to kill a BS with it eventually, if I can find one that will hold still long enough, and that isn't on a gate or a station so that I can engage it with a =frig=. 99.99% of my kills are at a gate or station because I have to force fights. Not with carebear mission runners, but with all the 'hardcore PVPers' out there 'looking for fights'. 99% of the people I run into that are pvp equipped are looking to kill someone 12 on 1, not actually get into a fight. Today in fact I sat on the otherside of a highsec gate in lowsec with four people in my gang waiting for a twelve person gang to jump in and attack. They didn't. Their excuse when I asked them why they didn't engage? 'We were waiting for you to jump into us'. I'm a pirate. I'm -10. They're in high sec. They know all of this. TBH it's crap like this that is making a lot of pirates rat their sec back up so that they can war dec people like that and bring the fight to them regardless of system security. But I hear that's being nerfed too. Again, the point of my post was this: be warned PVPers, regardless of how you choose to PVP, your PVP is going to be increasingly limited as to where when and how you can fight, with the target having more and more of a say in how that happens. And you're telling me that I'm wrong? SHOW me why that above statement is just flat out wrong. Please. Show me one thing that CCP has done to -increase- the ability for people to attack other people. Increase offensive oriented combat. Increase the opportunities to kill people (in the game, lol?). I'm very interested to hear your examples. I've got so many examples of this it's saddening. Such as jumping in on 0.0 gate camps which just warp off if they dont have capital support even though they outnumber us 4:1
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:42:00 - [66] And i got a long list of examples of pirates gatecamping and running to station when an enemy fleet comes in same region as they are. Or the pirates station camping with carriers that are further inside the station than the average nyx can fly into a caldari station.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:44:00 - [67] Originally by: Furb Killer What i really like to know, there seems to be two opinions here: Eve is going to die/suck because people cant escape from blobs. In other words: Nanos cant escape when jumping into a larger fleet. Eve is going to die/suck because people can escape non consensual combat. In other words: Ships can escape when jumping into a larger fleet (or at least when they are outgunned). I like to know which one exactly is the reason eve is going to die/suck. Both. (Don't construe this as my being pro-nano, I'm not) Nano ships won't be able to evade blobs. They die. It takes a blob of people to kill a target. This is bad. A ship jumps into a system with a solo player waiting at a gate for a target. Ship jumps back through and escapes because of 50% web, couldn't get a 9km scram on it, blah blah blah. This is bad because now you have to have a blob to kill a target, any target. Even a big slow BS. It takes a blob of people now to kill a target. This is bad. I repeated some of the key parts there for you so you would comprehend it. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:44:00 - [68] Edited by: Maximillian Bayonette on 11/08/2008 11:44:18 Originally by: Furb Killer Carebear crap WTF happened to -V-. You guys used to be cool.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:45:00 - [69] Edited by: Le Skunk on 11/08/2008 11:45:37 Originally by: Furb Killer text 1) Yes of course. Low secers have to make do with 70% of the possible ships/fittings effectively out of bounds. ITs a handicap the 0.0 pvpers do not have, and it means you have to be more skillful to succeed. 2) BAH - militia wars are a load of old tosh. Its queensbury rules "not in the face" cheap clone, pvp flag, scaredy blobs, no risk, drakes and shitty fits. How do i know - I have a spy alt in one of the militias, and its so pointless I go afk in "our" blob with "their" blob on the other side of the gate. SKUNK
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:46:00 - [70] But you just said you were with 4 players. Then you can both web and scram the target without problems... 1. I dont represent -V-, it is just my own opinion, not theirs. 2. how is it carebear crap? Thesedays carebear is just another word for someone you disagree with

Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:48:00 - [71] Originally by: Furb Killer Or the pirates station camping with carriers that are further inside the station than the average nyx can fly into a caldari station. Use a nano macherial and bump the enemy off station.... oh wait...... its getting gimpnerfed SKUNK
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:48:00 - [72] Originally by: Furb Killer And i got a long list of examples of pirates gatecamping and running to station when an enemy fleet comes in same region as they are. Or the pirates station camping with carriers that are further inside the station than the average nyx can fly into a caldari station. real pirates don't run unless they know they are gonna die. they search for the fight that they may win or lose - as long as it is a good fight. Now we actually have videos proving my examples, how about you? Cus I would love to see a bunch of pirates warping off because an enemy fleet is in the same region, I need a good laugh.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:49:00 - [73] Originally by: Furb Killer But you just said you were with 4 players. Then you can both web and scram the target without problems... 1. I dont represent -V-, it is just my own opinion, not theirs. 2. how is it carebear crap? Thesedays carebear is just another word for someone you disagree with It's carebear crap because you're arguing from the standpoint of a member of "the blob", and try to use those experiences to lecture solo pvpers. You get hung up on parts of sentences and fail to read the entire thing. You argue from the standpoint that your opponent is a griefer. All these are trademarks of carebear arguing techniques.
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:51:00 - [74] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Furb Killer Or the pirates station camping with carriers that are further inside the station than the average nyx can fly into a caldari station. Use a nano macherial and bump the enemy off station.... oh wait...... its getting gimpnerfed SKUNK Don't worry, I remember the Typhoo...ohwait nosry
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:51:00 - [75] Edited by: Furb Killer on 11/08/2008 11:52:26 Where exactly do i argue from blob point of view? And how exactly dont i do solo pvp? And i am sure i can find somewhere a vid of pirates running when a fleet comes in same system (you realise that is pretty hard to put in a vid?), then you just tell they arent real pirates. Maybe we should first define what real pirates are. And what are those who only fight when they are 100% sure they win and prefer to target industrials and rookie ships when they arent pirates? Sure i see those carriers being bumped by nano machs all the time. Oh wait actually i have never seen them being bumped off...
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:52:00 - [76] Originally by: Furb Killer And i got a long list of examples of pirates gatecamping and running to station when an enemy fleet comes in same region as they are. So you fully endorse giving us more abilities to run? Because that's what you were saying, too. Interestingly enough, gatecamping pirates wouldn't have any victims if our victims learned to use scouts like we do Originally by: Furb Killer Or the pirates station camping with carriers that are further inside the station than the average nyx can fly into a caldari station. Yeah, I see you've been to Tama. It's one of the exceedingly rare stations where station camping makes any sense at all, because people undock 5km off redock range. On the other hand, with most other stations, station camping is totally pointless, because your targets can just redock immediately. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:53:00 - [77] Edited by: Franga on 11/08/2008 11:57:46 Originally by: Arctur Ceti Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'll adapt and inflict pain and misery on carebears regardless of what CCP does until they remove nonconsentual PVP completely. That's your problem right there. This isn't the game you think it is. Edit: you answered. With regards to your answer (which came on page 2) - I think there are certain things that CCP deems as exploits of the game mechanics, but in terms of harrassing someone because they are there - no. I believe that Bellum is correct when he says there is no such thing in EVE. Also, by the looks of it to me according to your comments - it's not actually the game that you think it is either. Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
drendell	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:53:00 - [78] im a pve or care bears as most people call us i cant wait to get out to 0.0 and have to keep watch at all times for pvpers its unfortunate that pvp is seems to be dieing out, even though im a miner and hauler i like the thrill of knowing that this trip could end up with me being held for ransom. so to all you pvpers out there stick to it i hope that ccp will start making your life's better soon, and anyway im trying to move out to low sec that should give you one more target.
drendell	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:54:00 - [79] Edited by: drendell on 11/08/2008 11:54:08 error double post
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:56:00 - [80] Edited by: Furb Killer on 11/08/2008 11:58:01 Actually i have never seen in tama a carrier station camping. In old man star senate station they are camping half of the time with capitals. And no it doesnt make sense, i have undocked 50 times with them camping, and they never got me. Just stop ship, wait 30 seconds, redock. But then i am stuck in the station if i want to fly a larger ship. It wont really give pirates much more ability to run. When gatecamping they are on the gate allready usually. So when they want to jump they dont need to run anywhere, just press the button. Sure if you got 2 fleets you can then still catch them, but usually not. And what if we play solo and have no scout? Oh wait, eve isnt game to play solo. Unless you are solo pirating because then it is an issue... Last time i got camped in a station by pirate capitals they had thanatos, phoenix, nighthawk and sometimes another ship. All trying to get as close to station as possible. An hour long i couldnt undock with battlecruiser. (well i did undock but couldnt get into warp before they had me locked). The result: 2 rookie ships destroyed, 1 industrial, 1 shuttle. Must be fascinating game play.

Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:58:00 - [81] Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 11/08/2008 11:52:26 Where exactly do i argue from blob point of view? And how exactly dont i do solo pvp? And i am sure i can find somewhere a vid of pirates running when a fleet comes in same system (you realise that is pretty hard to put in a vid?), then you just tell they arent real pirates. Maybe we should first define what real pirates are. And what are those who only fight when they are 100% sure they win and prefer to target industrials and rookie ships when they arent pirates? Sure i see those carriers being bumped by nano machs all the time. Oh wait actually i have never seen them being bumped off... oh yeah we kill industrials as well but for reasons like 2 days ago we killed a t1 unscouted hauler that jumped into lowsec carrying 1.6 billion in mods. I didn't say we ONLY look for fair fights but I sure as hell would like more of them. I only kill helpless targets to try and make a tiny bit of the isk back that I lose when I die. Also, you said that pirates running were from your own experience not some random video.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.11 11:58:00 - [82] Originally by: Furb Killer Sure i see those carriers being bumped by nano machs all the time. Oh wait actually i have never seen them being bumped off... Thats because your all pansies flying around in t1 fully insured myrms SKUNK
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:00:00 - [83] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Furb Killer Sure i see those carriers being bumped by nano machs all the time. Oh wait actually i have never seen them being bumped off... Thats because your all pansies flying around in t1 fully insured myrms SKUNK Skunk - I read alot of your comments and you're on the money alot of the time. But some of your arguments are horrible. See above. Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:00:00 - [84] Originally by: drendell im a pve or care bears as most people call us i cant wait to get out to 0.0 and have to keep watch at all times for pvpers its unfortunate that pvp is seems to be dieing out, even though im a miner and hauler i like the thrill of knowing that this trip could end up with me being held for ransom. so to all you pvpers out there stick to it i hope that ccp will start making your life's better soon, and anyway im trying to move out to low sec that should give you one more target. You're gonna be sorely dissapointed.
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:00:00 - [85] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Furb Killer Sure i see those carriers being bumped by nano machs all the time. Oh wait actually i have never seen them being bumped off... Thats because your all pansies flying around in t1 fully insured myrms SKUNK Skunk - I read alot of your comments and you're on the money alot of the time. But some of your arguments are horrible. See above. Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:00:00 - [86] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/08/2008 12:01:03 Originally by: Furb Killer And i am sure i can find somewhere a vid of pirates running when a fleet comes in same system (you realise that is pretty hard to put in a vid?), then you just tell they arent real pirates. Maybe we should first define what real pirates are. I think I echo the opinion of the majority of pirate FCs when I say that the correct course of action when a larger fleet is nextdoor, you're agressed on the gate, and they've got Falcon pilots with them (we keep them at negative standings as a rule, so you're not suprising us twice even if we don't spot it first go) is run away. Of course, I realize that for some truly hardcore people, being melted away while 90% of you are jammed is funny. And that's what the situation is with anti-pirates next door most of the time. Hell, I've occasionally fought in such fights (sometimes taking someone with me, gank ships with ECCM and full out heat for the win), but they're generally total suicide and a great way to go bankrupt fast - and if there's something real pirates don't do, they don't buy GTCs/run L4s/etc. Originally by: Furb Killer And what are those who only fight when they are 100% sure they win and prefer to target industrials and rookie ships when they arent pirates? I don't consider people who pirate for the lols (rather then ISK) proper pirates. So logic (or simple math really) dictates that a big part of your kills must be a result of generally unfair fights, or fights where you have a edge your opponents don't know about (either due to ship fittings, SP/implants, friends, target selection, them being clueless nubbins). Of course, if you make running easier, we'll do it too. If you make blobbing more important, we'll do it too (at least the ones in corps). If you kill solo combat, we just won't solo. But it diminishes the fun for us all, both pirates and anti-pirates. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:01:00 - [87] Originally by: Lorz0r 2 days ago we killed a t1 unscouted hauler that jumped into lowsec carrying 1.6 billion in mods Killmail or it didnt happen
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:03:00 - [88] Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Originally by: Lorz0r 2 days ago we killed a t1 unscouted hauler that jumped into lowsec carrying 1.6 billion in mods Killmail or it didnt happen http://kb.killer-koalas.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3763
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:06:00 - [89] I got those pirate gatecamps running when fleet comes near from own experience yes, but never put it on vid. And that vid wouldnt show anything besides a scout reporting they all docked. I am so gonna get flamed for this one, but: Yes imo 'real' pirates fight for isk and not lulz. I understand they gank industrials. I personally dont like ganking them, but i dont have problems with others doing it. I understand sometimes in rookie ships they transport BPO's, so i can get it why you gank them. But the chance a rookie ship that is mining in a belt transports BPOs is pretty small. And i am pretty sure the majority of those flashie reds in low sec dont do it for the isk. They destroyed me often enough, and i have never had anyone asking for a ransom.
Sweet Laylah	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:10:00 - [90] Bellum 4tw tbh. People speak of making fights more interesting well fact is the most interesting fights I have had by far are those involving nano gang v nano gang. Sure beats dps v tank slugfest that often end in docking or jumping. You actually need fly ya ship, be spacially aware of ya corp mates, have to maintain points on multiple taregts, still apply dps and not get picked off. No EFT plus dock/jump finger hover will help. As for ganks - well escaping a gank after you stupidly jumped your BS into a rapier by dawdling back to gate is pure lameness. It's game mechanics overcoming stupidity. As for always flying with 5+ wingmates, well thats fine I'm sure .. unless you want to hunt alone or with a couple others ...

Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:11:00 - [91] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Furb Killer Sure i see those carriers being bumped by nano machs all the time. Oh wait actually i have never seen them being bumped off... Thats because your all pansies flying around in t1 fully insured myrms SKUNK Pwned tbh. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:12:00 - [92] Edited by: Furb Killer on 11/08/2008 12:13:33 If you get back to gate with rapier on you they had serious lack of firepower. But you like to fly nanos, you like to be able to run away from larger fleets, but you dont like people able to run away from larger pirate fleets? Edit: And i thought no one would take that comment from skunk serious, guess i was wrong. Now try a t2 myrmidon and soon that fully insured becomes losing 40 million per myrmidon.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:15:00 - [93] Originally by: Lorz0r Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Originally by: Lorz0r 2 days ago we killed a t1 unscouted hauler that jumped into lowsec carrying 1.6 billion in mods Killmail or it didnt happen http://kb.killer-koalas.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3763 Lol hydra rocks. Vote against the nano nerf!
Call'Da Poleece	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:15:00 - [94] Originally by: Lorz0r Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Originally by: Lorz0r 2 days ago we killed a t1 unscouted hauler that jumped into lowsec carrying 1.6 billion in mods Killmail or it didnt happen http://kb.killer-koalas.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3763 when people say 'we' they usually mean a group with your participation or maybe a group of your corp mates... this wouldnt appear to be either. Or maybe you mean 'we' = pirates? and ffs, hydra, what are they like? I have never seen such muppets I'm the short fortuneteller who escaped from prison: a small medium at large.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:23:00 - [95] Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 11/08/2008 12:24:16 Originally by: Furb Killer I got those pirate gatecamps running when fleet comes near from own experience yes, but never put it on vid. And that vid wouldnt show anything besides a scout reporting they all docked. I am so gonna get flamed for this one, but: Yes imo 'real' pirates fight for isk and not lulz. I understand they gank industrials. I personally dont like ganking them, but i dont have problems with others doing it. I understand sometimes in rookie ships they transport BPO's, so i can get it why you gank them. But the chance a rookie ship that is mining in a belt transports BPOs is pretty small. And i am pretty sure the majority of those flashie reds in low sec dont do it for the isk. They destroyed me often enough, and i have never had anyone asking for a ransom. Furb- You're making the same mistake most of my vitims do: you're assuming that pirates do things 'because we have to' not 'just because we can'. We don't kill haulers and shuttles and noob ships and whatever else because that's all we can kill. We do it because we can. Because we kill absolutely everything and anything that crosses our paths that we can get a point on. We also kill all the big bad mean 'PVP' ships as well. But yes, we do indeed kill all the little stuff that is supposedly 'not worth killing'. Usually because one in a hundred (I wish) carries a billion ISK BS BPO or an officer mod or some other silly crap. One other thing: back in the day, T2 mods used to be worth a lot of ISK. The ISK density per kill was quite high. You don't get any ISK from a killmail. All the ISK you get from a kill is what's left in the can (wreck). I try to ransom people all the time. What transpires is usually something like this: me: "YARR! Your money or your life! Pay me ISK and I'll let you live!!!" them: blocked me: ....not again... kills their ship kills their pod I killed a Navy Mega just the other night that did exactly that. Wouldn't cooperate at all. Regardless, it's getting harder and harder to make ISK by killing people and taking their stuff, as their stuff (T2) is worth crap these days with all the falling prices due to too many carebears producing and too many farmers making cheap mins. Have you looked at the prices of Navy Megas lately? They're 300m ISK! It's insane! These days every ISK farmer flies a CNR FFS. All due to the lack of nonconsentual PVP and CCP holding player's hands in order to keep them safe. If killers like myself had access to targets like those, the Eve economy wouldn't be the shitpile that it is today. And now with the suicide gank nerf it's guaranteed that nobody will be touching mission runners in high sec for a very long time, if at all. Just as an example. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:29:00 - [96] Edited by: Furb Killer on 11/08/2008 12:32:50 I know exactly what your kind of pirates do (that isnt an insult, you got those who shoot everything they see, those who do it pure for profit (very small group), and those who shoot everything that is unarmed). But you say yourself that you right now shoot basicly everything that comes through a gate. How is it such a huge issue when a small percentage escapes? Checked some of your kills when you made topic, and too lazy to check again, but that navy mega had horrible fitting from what i remember. Then add he apparently got podded too, and we can conclude he was a noob (98% of those who get podded in low sec arent experienced with pvp). Do you seriously think that after web changes they all will burn back to the gate without fighting and jump through? I really doubt it. And web changes might hurt you, but i also like to be able to move a bit when doing close range fights. Right now in small gangs it is: outside 10 km going 5km/s. Or inside 10km going 0m/s due to multiple 90% webs on you. I would enjoy it alot more when i can actually move. Now i understand perfectly why you dont like it. But from my (egocentric) point of view: I like changes (when i pvp, not so i can escape pirates better without fighting), you dont like changes. I still like changes, so i am happy with changes. Okay true, if you ransom me i wont block you, but i will hope you didnt notice that i started self destruct timer. Even if i would pay ransom most would probably still destroy me. Now if we could continue the debate like this, in a civilised way, i would be really happy (allthough i got to go in a while ) Edit: Navy megas, few months ago i bought one (yep for carebearing in high sec when i feel like it), and they were 400M. Sure once saw one for 300M, but before i managed to reach the region it was in someone bought it. In the end i bought one for 410M with 2 CCC rigs iirc. But it could be that it dropped alot, didnt check it recently.
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:41:00 - [97] Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Originally by: Lorz0r Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Originally by: Lorz0r 2 days ago we killed a t1 unscouted hauler that jumped into lowsec carrying 1.6 billion in mods Killmail or it didnt happen http://kb.killer-koalas.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3763 when people say 'we' they usually mean a group with your participation or maybe a group of your corp mates... this wouldnt appear to be either. Or maybe you mean 'we' = pirates? and ffs, hydra, what are they like? I have never seen such muppets Although we aren't an alliance, we are allied corps and we all camp the same lowsec areas, we just didnt happen to be in the same fleet at the time.
Sumiya Tanaka	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:42:00 - [98] The bigger deal isn't these changes. The bigger deal is that there is no real reason to be in low sec space (other than FW, now). CCP has got the risk/reward a bit screwed up from the perspective of ISK earnings, due to the level 4 mission situation. That sets up a reality whereby most players have their ISK pump in high sec space -- even 0.0 players will have their ISK pump there, too. So in the in-between land of low sec space, there's a significant design issue around incentivizing more players to be there (and not just in the FW war zones). If this were adjusted, there would be enough targets in low sec to keep the pirates happy, even given all of the changes mentioned in the OP.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:42:00 - [99] Originally by: Furb Killer <snip for space> Yeah, that particular guy probably wouldn't have made it back to the gate, but my point is Furb, those who don't want to fight will have a lot more opportunity to avoid it, even when they screw up horribly and put themselves right into the middle of a situation that should get them killed. This, and the fact that in order to secure a kill with any sort of reliability, as Skunk has already very well illustrated (thank you Skunk) it will take a small blob (at a minimum) to get the job done. Which is bad. Oh, and one thing to note about that guy being podded- I tried to open convo with him, and he blocked me, then I told him to eject (I knew he wouldn't have anything of worth fit to his ship lol) or I'd destroy the ship and pod him. He didn't eject, so of course I had to follow through and pod him. But how many people do you know that can get their pod out before some faction smartbombs make it go squish? He logged off and I still squished him before he could emergency warp off. What is funny is that in the last couple weeks I've made over half a bill from bounties off of 'pirates', but in three plus years of pirating, I don't ever recall anyone getting a bounty off of my head, except for maybe once when I was in a hauler in 0.0 for about 20m. Maybe I should be known as a bounty hunter instead? Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:50:00 - [100] Originally by: Sumiya Tanaka The bigger deal isn't these changes. The bigger deal is that there is no real reason to be in low sec space (other than FW, now). CCP has got the risk/reward a bit screwed up from the perspective of ISK earnings, due to the level 4 mission situation. That sets up a reality whereby most players have their ISK pump in high sec space -- even 0.0 players will have their ISK pump there, too. So in the in-between land of low sec space, there's a significant design issue around incentivizing more players to be there (and not just in the FW war zones). If this were adjusted, there would be enough targets in low sec to keep the pirates happy, even given all of the changes mentioned in the OP. The irony of FW is that it's actually ruined lowsec. No, I'm not kidding. A lot of my pirate friends are simply ratting their sec up so they can escape the fowl smell of FW. All FW has done was bring nano blobs of cheap crap ships into lowsec. Indeed, because of these FW blobs, even the small amount of non-pirate traffic that was there before FW has dried up to pretty much zero. I was really looking forward to FW, hoping that it would add a lot of depth to the game and a lot of content for end game players. Instead what CCP gave us was some fluff aimed at carebears who 'want to get their feet wet'. Instead of NPC agents incentivising PVP with ISK bounties for kills, all we got is this capture complexes crap and ship restrictions. When I see frigs and other little crap ships jump through my gates, I don't even bother chasing them half the time because I just can't be bothered. Now with FW it's the same thing, only there's 50 little crap ships that I can't be bothered to chase instead of just one. FW was a huge disappointment for me and most of the players that I know. 80% of my crew has fixed their sec so they can wardec people. Guess what's getting nerfed next? Lol. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.

Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:55:00 - [101] FW decreased ammount of pirate gatecamps by alot, and most FW fleets dont fire on neutrals, making it much safer for random people to travel through low sec space. You say the problem is that people can escape, but is that a problem? When people can actually escape some of camps in low sec they might have more reason to stay there. Right now the first experience most people got with low sec pvp is getting caught in a pirategatecamp without ANY chance of escaping.
Sumiya Tanaka	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:57:00 - [102] Oh I know that FW was no real boon to low sec pirates. But my point is that there needs to be other reasons for people to be in low sec other than FW. If people were forced to bring their level 4 mission boats into low sec to get their ISK, that would change low sec dramatically.
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.08.11 12:57:00 - [103] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Arctur Ceti Oh hai, I did not read the manual of the game I'm playing, and I'm too scared to post with my main. Well, read the manual and post with your main. 1) Nice strawman you set up there. 2) Point me to this manual of yours. Enlighten me with your unquestioned knowledge that even CCP fails to understand. 3) Real men like you post with a real toon versus a fake one. You sir, reek of manly testosterone. And that can only mean you must mate alot in real life. Congratulations.
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:01:00 - [104] Real men dont use toons.
hired goon Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:04:00 - [105] Hey Bellum, since you asked, I thought of a few things CCP did to encourage PvP. 1) Release large warp disruptor bubbles 2) Interdictors 3) Heavy Interdictors 4) Nerf WCS to hell ...although I admit these points mainly make difference only in a 0.0 theatre of operations, and not Low Sec. But I'd argue that PvP happens in 0.0 anyway, and only 'pirating' and 'griefing' happens in Low Sec -omg-
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:16:00 - [106] Originally by: Sumiya Tanaka Oh I know that FW was no real boon to low sec pirates. But my point is that there needs to be other reasons for people to be in low sec other than FW. If people were forced to bring their level 4 mission boats into low sec to get their ISK, that would change low sec dramatically. Just to be clear: I'm agreeing with you 100%. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Sumiya Tanaka	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:21:00 - [107] Petition to CCP: Fix Low Sec! Low sec is like the poor bastard child of EVE, really. High sec is where everyone throngs, and null-sec is what CCP cares about, but low sec is just kind of the red-headed stepchild of the game, atm.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:27:00 - [108] PvP has been declared dead in EvE more times than Elvis has been sighted.
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:27:00 - [109] I dont really think forcing people into low sec is the answer. But giving people a good incentive such as LP would be a good change. This could really only come about if LP from high sec agents was stopped and low sec and 0.0 agents gave out the LP. Not everyone would go to low sec to get LP but those that do will be rewarded largely. It would also help spread out the mission runners in high sec, they would no longer be all hugging that Q18 agent.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:28:00 - [110] Edited by: Le Skunk on 11/08/2008 13:28:30 Edited by: Le Skunk on 11/08/2008 13:27:43 Originally by: Furb Killer (98% of those who get podded in low sec arent experienced with pvp) 100% of people who say this are wrong SKUNK edited

Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:34:00 - [111] Originally by: Sumiya Tanaka Petition to CCP: Fix Low Sec! Low sec is like the poor bastard child of EVE, really. High sec is where everyone throngs, and null-sec is what CCP cares about, but low sec is just kind of the red-headed stepchild of the game, atm. There is no fix for lowsec. It's the player created Hell of EvE that everybody wants it to be just nobody has the balls to admit it. Pirate/PvP/PK ridden hell which has no brakes and no matter how juicy you make the bait look like, no sane carebear will ever stay there unless protected. I have lived almost in every security part of EvE. I find alliance 0.0 the most fun one with highsec level 4s close behind. The first one for the opportunities as well as the danger and the second one for the calm game time I want to have at times with a few friends. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:39:00 - [112] Originally by: Hugh Ruka ...PK ... lol SKUNK
Arctur Ceti	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:43:00 - [113] Originally by: Hugh Ruka There is no fix for lowsec. It's the player created Hell of EvE that everybody wants it to be just nobody has the balls to admit it. Pirate/PvP/PK ridden hell which has no brakes and no matter how juicy you make the bait look like, no sane carebear will ever stay there unless protected. And this is the real problem with low sec. It's turned into the place you go to take a crap and nothing more. Now it smells bad and we want CCP to clean our mess. In the mean time now we want to turn hi sec into a crapper as well, except CCP is will not allow it. And thus some of us are having fits.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:51:00 - [114] Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 11/08/2008 13:53:15 Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Hugh Ruka ...PK ... lol SKUNK killing evrything that jumps through a gate is not piracy. Piracy by definition has economic(sp?) motives behind. that includes making sure the target is worth the ammo you are wasting. every carebear would be ok if lowsec only had proper wars and proper piracy. it's the senseless PKing that's the problem. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:54:00 - [115] Senseless Pkin is what makes Low sec great.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:55:00 - [116] Originally by: Hugh Ruka killing evrything that jumps through a gate is not piracy. Piracy by definition has economic(sp?) motives behind. that includes making sure the target is worth the ammo you are wasting. every carebear would be ok if lowsec only had proper wars and proper piracy. it's the senseless PKing that's the problem. Didn't realise you where the judge on what constitutes piracy and not. Sorry 'bout that.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:58:00 - [117] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Hugh Ruka killing evrything that jumps through a gate is not piracy. Piracy by definition has economic(sp?) motives behind. that includes making sure the target is worth the ammo you are wasting. every carebear would be ok if lowsec only had proper wars and proper piracy. it's the senseless PKing that's the problem. Didn't realise you where the judge on what constitutes piracy and not. Sorry 'bout that. don't be an idiot and try to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.11 13:59:00 - [118] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Senseless Pkin is what makes Low sec great. orly ? there are too many 'fix lowsec' threads then from clueless people :-) seems there is nothing to fix and you are extremely happy about the state of lowsec. next time I see a whine thread from a pirate that want's to push people out of highsec, I will link your post :-) --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:01:00 - [119] Originally by: Hugh Ruka don't be an idiot and try to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy Nice link. I especially like the actual defenition. Originally by: your link Maritime piracy, according to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) of 1982, consists of any criminal acts of violence, detention, or depredation committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or aircraft that is directed on the high seas against another ship, aircraft, or against persons or property on board a ship or aircraft. Doesn't say anything about economic reasons. Just "private ends" which can be just about anything. Way to shoot your argument in the foot, m8
FlameGlow Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:06:00 - [120] Originally by: hired goon Hey Bellum, since you asked, I thought of a few things CCP did to encourage PvP. 1) Release large warp disruptor bubbles 2) Interdictors 3) Heavy Interdictors 4) Nerf WCS to hell ...although I admit these points mainly make difference only in a 0.0 theatre of operations, and not Low Sec. But I'd argue that PvP happens in 0.0 anyway, and only 'pirating' and 'griefing' happens in Low Sec Plenty of HICs in lowsec gatecamps, typically they just sit on the gate with a BS for DPS/sensor boosting and instalock+infinipoint anyone going through. And don't forget the upcoming speed nerf it'll make getting away or back to gate harder. _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.

Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:16:00 - [121] Originally by: FlameGlow And don't forget the upcoming speed nerf it'll make getting away or back to gate harder. Only if you blob up. Vote against the nano nerf!
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:19:00 - [122] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Hugh Ruka don't be an idiot and try to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy Nice link. I especially like the actual defenition. Originally by: your link Maritime piracy, according to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) of 1982, consists of any criminal acts of violence, detention, or depredation committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or aircraft that is directed on the high seas against another ship, aircraft, or against persons or property on board a ship or aircraft. Doesn't say anything about economic reasons. Just "private ends" which can be just about anything. Way to shoot your argument in the foot, m8 way to ignore the historical background ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:33:00 - [123] Originally by: Hugh Ruka way to ignore the historical background ... Didn't you say that piracy by defenition is about economy? I'm pretty sure you did. The link you provided proved you wrong. About the historical background, are you telling me that RL pirates never killed anyone if it wasn't for profit?
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:46:00 - [124] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Hugh Ruka way to ignore the historical background ... Didn't you say that piracy by defenition is about economy? I'm pretty sure you did. The link you provided proved you wrong. About the historical background, are you telling me that RL pirates never killed anyone if it wasn't for profit? Oh I did not say that they did not kill anyone if it wasn't for profit. Just IRL we have the thing called permanent death. So before you commit piracy, you generaly make sure it is worth it just in case it might not go the way you want it to. You see this game should be fun. Bellum mentioned he's trying his limits in PvP. Well I am trying my limits in this game too. F.e. how best to evade pirates in lowsec while doing my bussiness. With "sensless PKin" all around, there simply is one less limit to explore. With "proper piracy" (as I stated it), I could go around lowsec as a low priority target while still enjoying it. See the difference ? There is nothing for me in lowsec that would be worth the risk. Lowsec is a myth. It existed only in the early stages of the game, when the population was small enough to make you feel safe in some cases. Now even 0.0 is preferable to lowsec. What most people don't get here is that a PVP MMORPG is a MYTH. It does not exist and will never exist. It's either an FPS with RPG categories st****d in, or a strategy game. RPG is about story and a story needs to build and continue. You can't make a continuous story about destruction simply because you will soon run out of things to destroy. Generaly I do not mind PvP. 0.0 is great for that. There are some things wrong with POS warfare and sov mechanics, but those can be ironed out. But 0.0 is the kind of placy I'd expect to find PvP. Lowsec is for Piracy, however this needs to be controlled. You have to have more builders than pirates or it will not work. Look at how it is now. There are more pirates than other types of players in lowsec and it is clearly broken. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:53:00 - [125] Originally by: Hugh Ruka See the difference ? There is nothing for me in lowsec that would be worth the risk. Yes because highsec is way too profitable compared to low sec. Its easy to stay alive in low sec if you want to, and if it actually provided a potentially higher amount of isk than high sec it would be even safer. Because then you would have more people moving in there to actually try and make isk there. And that would bring people that are willing to spend time policing the systems. But as it is now low sec is just something you fly through on your way to high sec or 0.0. In other words nerf high sec missions. Vote against the nano nerf!
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:53:00 - [126] Originally by: Hugh Ruka killing evrything that jumps through a gate is not piracy. Piracy by definition has economic(sp?) motives behind. that includes making sure the target is worth the ammo you are wasting. You're stupid. Want to know why? I'll illustrate with some things which happened to me and my corpmates: (a) AFK noobship carrying over 2B in BPOs, fully researched Maelstorm BPO dropped (happened to my corpmate while solo camping). (b) AFK covops carrying 400M in modules/BPOs, over 200M dropped (ganked it solo while scouting for a gang on the other side) (c) multiple interceptors dying to smartbombs carrying a BPOs/tags/salvage (my CEO smartbombing the gate), generally netting 30-40M per kill. (d) AFK noobship carrying tons of salvage (happened to me, yay 50M in salvage). (e) AFK magnate carrying over 100M in high-ends (Zydrine+Megacyte), 45M drops. ... Not worth the ammo? I generally fire Barrage M at 330 ISK/shot, expending maybe 3K to gank a frigate. It's very much worth it. Originally by: Hugh Ruka There is no fix for lowsec. It's the player created Hell of EvE that everybody wants it to be just nobody has the balls to admit it. Pirate/PvP/PK ridden hell which has no brakes and no matter how juicy you make the bait look like, no sane carebear will ever stay there unless protected. First off, I know industrials who live in low-sec. They know about low-sec survival and they like doing industry, and they're fine. It's not like nobody lives there, just very very few people have the reason to (given moon mining is preety much the only thing you can do which is even remotely worthwhile providing someone doesn't blow up your posses). Secondly, look. Currently, you can make better ISK in high-sec. The differences between low-sec mission runners and high-sec mission runners in ISK/mission are minute. The whole difference in ISK/hour gets eaten by the time you have to run away (provided you're attentive enough to never get killed) and the increased time taken for traveling (because you've got to take special precautions). If we factor in the occasional ransom paid (or ship lost), the high-sec mission runner makes more. Hell, if we factor in the fact you can do high-sec mission farming with a pimped out Marauder very safely (and it would be too risky to do so in low-sec), the high-sec mission runner makes way, way more ISK/hr. THAT is the issue. There is no financial incentive anyway. Sure, you can say "oh, but they wouldn't go, it's too dangerous". That's rubbish. People looking for a profit would go and find a way to be reasonably secure. Currently, people who are looking for a profit should go to high-sec, because it pays better - or some reasonably safe 0.0. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Zephyr Rengate dearg doom	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:54:00 - [127] Is my what I suggested earlier on such a ad idea for low sec?
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.11 14:59:00 - [128] Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 11/08/2008 15:00:25 Originally by: Cpt Branko stuff ... 1. about the things you looted - well those were random drops. and NOTE those were targets well worth the act of piracy. You are always ignoring my economic argument. Killing everything left, right and center with the loot as bonus makes you a PK. A pirate would look at targets, scan the cargo and modules and then attack. I know there are mechanics absent from the game that would help with this. 2. lowsec being less profitable than highsec is not the issue. if you nerf highsec profits, I will go directly 0.0. There is no reason now or in the future to make me live in lowsec. all you will accomplish is to drive off some players and limit the game for other. also the lowsec indistrialista are there only for the factory/lab slots and POSes. or are you seriously claiming somebody is fool enough to mine there ? they are importing all the materials and components. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
DaDutchDude	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:00:00 - [129] Edited by: DaDutchDude on 11/08/2008 15:05:32 First off: I think your list of "anti-PVP" changes is quite suspect. There have also been a lot of changes that have given you more combat options. This has made combat richer, so that it's not just the char with the most combat SP that wins, but there's not more tactics and specific roles involved. There have also been nerfs on stuff that protects you against PVP (like Warp Core Stabilizers). It has recently also been made it much easier to find consentual PVP in Factional Warfare. It hasn't all gone one way, so it's a bit silly to make it appear that way by cherry-picking particular changes and leaving out others. You do have a point when you say there have been measures to protect players against non-consentual combat. Yes, as more people came it, CCP thought it was good to give starting players some professional options that kept them relatively safe. As more and more players joined EVE, more and more levels of protection were needed to give newbies options to stay away out of combat they wouldn't have had a chance in. Personally I think there are good reasons for this, although I am sure it also means the game will become less enjoyable for some players. Where I am starting to have a big problem is the way a lot of veteran players that enjoy PVP systematicly pick on 'care bearing'. What is so wrong with people enjoying this game in the relative safety of high sec space and NPC corps? They have great value to other players in the game by providing minerals to the market, building ships, etc. They also have a value in that they support the economic survival of EVE Online as a game. If only the hard-core PVP crowd was playing, there would never have been a lot of the expansions that have made EVE an even richer experience. Carebears have great value to the game, and I think it's time that the PVP bullies start accepting that and stop picking on them. But to a lot of the hard core PVP crowd, they enjoy it too much. They want to have non-consentual warfare protected, because they enjoy the easy pickings it provides. They seem to prefer the non-challenging non-consentual combat, reaping the benefits in ISK and bragging rights on their precious kill boards over the actual challenge of stepping up against equals, being pilots also skilled and fitted for PVP. To me, this speaks volumes about character: picking on the weak and complaining about them being protected, while being blind to their value to the game, which is your game but also my game and that of many carebears. If you want simple PVP-only games, go play Mortal Combat or something simple and one-dimensional like that. If you enjoy complex games with room for more people, more professions, more styles of play, etc., accept that your idea of fun shouldn't be the only fun that the game allows for. And if that means changing the mechanics of the game to protect other professions more so they can have fun as well instead of being griefed, so be it.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:09:00 - [130] Originally by: Hugh Ruka 1. about the things you looted - well those were random drops. and NOTE those were targets well worth the act of piracy. You are always ignoring my economic argument. Killing everything left, right and center with the loot as bonus makes you a PK. A pirate would look at targets, scan the cargo and modules and then attack. I know there are mechanics absent from the game that would help with this. So, excuse me, let me paint you a picture. I'm sitting in a Hurricane at a gate. I'm supposed to lock down a target (which I can't because webs won't stop him, and he may warp off if he's got WCS) at which point I get aggro (unless you want me to scan first and politely ask him to sit still while I do it), scan his cargo/modules (which I can't, because I can't fit all that), endure any fire he might be throwing on me while the gate is melting my ship already, and only then fire (which means I'm at half armour already, and even with the 1600 plate half armour doesn't amount to much) or open ransom convo while magically surviving gate guns, all the time hoping the target is not bait. Seriously now, I suggest you try pirating for 1-2 months. Try it your way, if you like. See if it's even possible. Originally by: Hugh Ruka 2. lowsec being less profitable than highsec is not the issue. So people should be inclined to go to low-sec for fun? Is that it? It's no issue if you have no economic incentive to go to the danger zone? So, wait, why should anyone take the risk of low-sec, speaking from a economy perspective? Originally by: Hugh Ruka if you nerf highsec profits, I will go directly 0.0. Ok, you will. However, some will go to low-sec. Originally by: Hugh Ruka There is no reason now or in the future to make me live in lowsec. all you will accomplish is to drive off some players and limit the game for other. Drive off/limit the game? Excuse me, but if someone is intent on playing the single player PvE grindfest, why should it bother him that he gets less ISK then low-sec/0.0 people? Seriously, "reduce my mission income and I'll quit" is precisely the same as "reduce my Vagabond's speed and I'll quit". Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:13:00 - [131] Originally by: Hugh Ruka 2. lowsec being less profitable than highsec is not the issue. No no, this is the issue. This is the issue we are discussing here. Originally by: Hugh Ruka if you nerf highsec profits, I will go directly 0.0. If it's so easy for you to go to 0.0, why aren't you there already? Could it be that hisec is profitable enough for you so there's no reason for you to move? Yeah, thought so. See the last quote. Originally by: Hugh Ruka There is no reason now or in the future to make me live in lowsec. Exactly, and that's why a boost of low sec is required. In order to keep low sec in line with 0.0, the boost can't be too big, so a nerf of hisec is required. Originally by: Hugh Ruka all you will accomplish is to drive off some players and limit the game for other. Well, that's what's happening now, and you don't seem overly worried about it. Should your playstyle be immune to nerfs? Originally by: Hugh Ruka also the lowsec indistrialista are there only for the factory/lab slots and POSes. or are you seriously claiming somebody is fool enough to mine there ? they are importing all the materials and components. What he's saying is that not everyone is as risk adverse as you. People would go to low sec if there was more there. People would leave hisec for low sec if hisec was less valuable.
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:21:00 - [132] /signed to OP comments. [/url]
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:28:00 - [133] Originally by: DaDutchDude Where I am starting to have a big problem is the way a lot of veteran players that enjoy PVP systematicly pick on 'care bearing'. What is so wrong with people enjoying this game in the relative safety of high sec space and NPC corps? They have great value to other players in the game by providing minerals to the market, building ships, etc. They also have a value in that they support the economic survival of EVE Online as a game. If only the hard-core PVP crowd was playing, there would never have been a lot of the expansions that have made EVE an even richer experience. Carebears have great value to the game, and I think it's time that the PVP bullies start accepting that and stop picking on them Exactly the opposite. See, the 'carebears' who impact the economy from the relative (nearly absolute now) security of high-sec are, basically, unfair competition (favoured by game mechanics) to anyone trying to do mining/etc anywhere else. By injecting massive amounts of minerals/salvage/etc in the market (while spending little, because they don't lose ships), they reduce the prices, and therefore nerf the 0.0 miner, the low-sec miner (which nobody does now), pirates (lower module prices) and preety much everyone else. They are not isolated from the rest of us. If they had their own market and their own currency and didn't affect us, nobody would care. As for the subscriptions, imagine EvE without PvP. Industry/mining/most of PvE becomes utterly pointless, as the ships aren't lost quickly enough to create market demand, economy dies, and what's left of EvE then? We can spin the 'neccesary for this game' multiple ways. Originally by: DaDutchDude They seem to prefer the non-challenging non-consentual combat, reaping the benefits in ISK and bragging rights on their precious kill boards over the actual challenge of stepping up against equals, being pilots also skilled and fitted for PVP. The pirate who doesn't try to pick fights he think he can win is soon to be: (a) buying GTCs and selling for ISK (b) having mining/mission running alts in high-sec (many do this) (c) quitting Reason? Look, let me explain piracy economics. Let's say I fly the minimum ship required for any gate work, a BC. Say, I'm flying a Hurricane. Costs Cost of ship = 33M. Insurance cost = 12M (insurance payout = 36.5M) Drones: 1M Ammo: 1-2M T2/named fittings: 17M (preety much minimum) Cheap rigs (optional, but they help a ton): 9M LOSS COST (Total cost-insurance payout) = 37M Now, assuming you're really uber and kill three hostiles using the same setup. Drop rate is about 50% for the modules. Dropable items (drones+ammo+fittings): 19.5M Likely to drop per kill: 9.75M* Loot value after 3 kills: 29.25M Net gain/loss: -7.75M See, if you're fighting competent foes, you need a minimum of 4:1 to break even (hell, a mission farmer will make about 100M in the time you need to find 4 good solo kills). Now, assuming you're fighting targets you don't outgun, you cannot ransom them (why would I discuss ransom with you if I have chances of killing you), and even if you're really really damn good, you're not going to get better then 4:1. *I forgot. In a fair fight, with the advent of heat, you will have anywhere from 0.5-1M of heat-related costs, and you'll probably waste about 0.3M of ammo too, so discount that from the loot recieved. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Newsflash Gallente NorthUnited	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:30:00 - [134] i for one would be happy if these griefer type people who whine about these changes would just quit playing like many of them threats. but unfortunately im pretty sure they wont..
Jenny' JoJo Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:33:00 - [135] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: DaDutchDude Where I am starting to have a big problem is the way a lot of veteran players that enjoy PVP systematicly pick on 'care bearing'. What is so wrong with people enjoying this game in the relative safety of high sec space and NPC corps? They have great value to other players in the game by providing minerals to the market, building ships, etc. They also have a value in that they support the economic survival of EVE Online as a game. If only the hard-core PVP crowd was playing, there would never have been a lot of the expansions that have made EVE an even richer experience. Carebears have great value to the game, and I think it's time that the PVP bullies start accepting that and stop picking on them Exactly the opposite. See, the 'carebears' who impact the economy from the relative (nearly absolute now) security of high-sec are, basically, unfair competition (favoured by game mechanics) to anyone trying to do mining/etc anywhere else. By injecting massive amounts of minerals/salvage/etc in the market (while spending little, because they don't lose ships), they reduce the prices, and therefore nerf the 0.0 miner, the low-sec miner (which nobody does now), pirates (lower module prices) and preety much everyone else. They are not isolated from the rest of us. If they had their own market and their own currency and didn't affect us, nobody would care. As for the subscriptions, imagine EvE without PvP. Industry/mining/most of PvE becomes utterly pointless, as the ships aren't lost quickly enough to create market demand, economy dies, and what's left of EvE then? We can spin the 'neccesary for this game' multiple ways. Originally by: DaDutchDude They seem to prefer the non-challenging non-consentual combat, reaping the benefits in ISK and bragging rights on their precious kill boards over the actual challenge of stepping up against equals, being pilots also skilled and fitted for PVP. The pirate who doesn't try to pick fights he think he can win is soon to be: (a) buying GTCs and selling for ISK (b) having mining/mission running alts in high-sec (many do this) (c) quitting Reason? Look, let me explain piracy economics. Let's say I fly the minimum ship required for any gate work, a BC. Say, I'm flying a Hurricane. Costs Cost of ship = 33M. Insurance cost = 12M (insurance payout = 36.5M) Drones: 1M Ammo: 1-2M T2/named fittings: 17M (preety much minimum) Cheap rigs (optional, but they help a ton): 9M LOSS COST (Total cost-insurance payout) = 37M Now, assuming you're really uber and kill three hostiles using the same setup. Drop rate is about 50% for the modules. Dropable items (drones+ammo+fittings): 19.5M Likely to drop per kill: 9.75M* Loot value after 3 kills: 29.25M Net gain/loss: -7.75M See, if you're fighting competent foes, you need a minimum of 4:1 to break even (hell, a mission farmer will make about 100M in the time you need to find 4 good solo kills). Now, assuming you're fighting targets you don't outgun, you cannot ransom them (why would I discuss ransom with you if I have chances of killing you), and even if you're really really damn good, you're not going to get better then 4:1. *I forgot. In a fair fight, with the advent of heat, you will have anywhere from 0.5-1M of heat-related costs, and you'll probably waste about 0.3M of ammo too, so discount that from the loot recieved. Pirate using Dominix + t1 fit + t1 drones is like 5mil total loss. Break even is on killing 1 ship. But your point is correct, that piracy is a loss making game usually. However, pirates are not pvping for isk, they are pvping for fun value. There is nothing to spend isk on other than pvp ultimatly. Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total)
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:35:00 - [136] If they would nerf high sec profits i think most will go to 0.0. Not really much reason to go to low sec. And problems with minerals and mission runners. Yeah lets totally remove lvl 4 missions from high sec because they get too much loot. Or just give them only named loot (no more t1 loot), let named loot reprocess in less minerals and if needed decrease ammount of loot that drops.
DaDutchDude	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:38:00 - [137] Edited by: DaDutchDude on 11/08/2008 15:39:53 Originally by: Cpt Branko (... stuff about risk / reward ...) Read my addition. If there needs to be a rebalance so that good PVPers and other low-sec / 0.0 people can make as much money as people in high sec, I'm fine with that. Like I said: I play for fun, not for ISK, and I think it is fair your hard work should be rewarded as much as my hard work. My point is that PVP shouldn't have be at the expense of other people's fun to be rewarding.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:49:00 - [138] Originally by: Jenny' JoJo Pirate using Dominix + t1 fit + t1 drones is like 5mil total loss. Break even is on killing 1 ship. But your point is correct, that piracy is a loss making game usually. But you will kill shit in the T1 fit Dominix, and everything your size will melt you with ease. Originally by: Jenny' JoJo However, pirates are not pvping for isk, they are pvping for fun value. There is nothing to spend isk on other than pvp ultimatly. Piracy, unlike forum trolling, is a profession in the game which revolves around making ISK. Some "pirates" do it for the lols, but many of us make cash by piracy. I know I do. It's not a lot after covering expenses, but it makes the wallet steadily grow. What do I spend it on? Well, I stockpile it mostly and don't spend it, only really use it to invest in skills, occasionally implants, and expanding my ship collection (and therefore, get more tools for doing the various things I might face). Occasionally I pimp a ship or two (and, well, pimping ships increases the risk, or rather the eventual loss in flying them, but it's fun if you really want to waste some ISK). Working ships (read: BCs, BS with T2 fittings and some rigs) have to be cost-effective. And to be cost-effective, you need to kill a lot - so to kill a lot, you have to pick on targets where you're likely to win. Plus, you get the occasional asshat PvP-ing in expendable T1 junk so you get virtually nothing out of it, so you need to kill even more. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:52:00 - [139] Branko and Maximillian, you are picking only on those parts of my posts that suit your argument and ignoring the parts where I actualy agree with your oppinions (tho it's not stated directly). Thanks for the usual EvE-O forum discussion :-) It turned out exactly as I expected it to do ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.11 15:54:00 - [140] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Branko and Maximillian, you are picking only on those parts of my posts that suit your argument and ignoring the parts where I actualy agree with your oppinions (tho it's not stated directly). Thanks for the usual EvE-O forum discussion :-) It turned out exactly as I expected it to do ... Well, you're ignoring all the arguments and just bleating how high-sec must keep high rewards even if they outshine low-sec (therefore don't give anyone rational a reason to go there aside researching BPOs at posses/etc, or pure ISK wasting in FW) and make you lack any incentive to go to 0.0 for profits (since high-sec profits are good enough to not warrant the extra risk). This discussion turned out exactly as I expected it to do... Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:02:00 - [141] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Hugh Ruka Branko and Maximillian, you are picking only on those parts of my posts that suit your argument and ignoring the parts where I actualy agree with your oppinions (tho it's not stated directly). Thanks for the usual EvE-O forum discussion :-) It turned out exactly as I expected it to do ... Well, you're ignoring all the arguments and just bleating how high-sec must keep high rewards even if they outshine low-sec (therefore don't give anyone rational a reason to go there aside researching BPOs at posses/etc, or pure ISK wasting in FW) and make you lack any incentive to go to 0.0 for profits (since high-sec profits are good enough to not warrant the extra risk). This discussion turned out exactly as I expected it to do... I only said there is no fix for lowsec. No matter how profitable you make it, it has more risks than 0.0 and less options for self defense. I never said highsec should be kept as profitable as it is. I just told you what will happen when you nerf highsec too much. You chose to ignore that, your loss. btw, there is not lack of incentive to go 0.0 for me, I just don't have the RL resources for that. Which 0.0 alliance will accept a 3 man corp with little online time? We'd be kicked out 2 weeks after joining. Highsec for now gives me all I expect from a game. Instant action where I can relax a bit without constantly watching my back. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Harris AFK	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:22:00 - [142] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Hitpoint buff... An attempt to get battles to last longer, to make them more interesting instead of ôOoh æeck, I see flashing red, IÆll .... forget it, IÆm back in stationö. Everyone gets affected the same. Originally by: Bellum Eternus T2 Ammo damage reduction ... An attempt to stop T2 weapons being overpowered. Went too far for some ammo types to be honest but stopped battles being over for some before they began unless you were T2 fitted. i.e elitist online. (T2 was elite at one point) If battles can be slowed down, then they can introduce more options, like targetting sub-systems etc. At the moment, the thought of having enough time for this is almost a joke... Originally by: Bellum Eternus Warp to zero ... As much of a database saving exercise than a æcarebear onlineÆ effort. Anyone worth his salt had warp û to û zero bookmarks anyway so what was the problem? If they hadnÆt gotten rid of those bookmarks to save the database and stopped mass copying of them as well, then I could understand your point, but they did, so itÆs irrelevant. Originally by: Bellum Eternus Rigs are introduced There are also weapon modifying rigs which affect speeds/ranges of missiles, RoF, tracking, optimal, falloff and wholesale damage of all weapons... forget those because they didnÆt suit your argument? You also forgot to mention the changes to warpcore stabilisers which went along way to changing play styles. i.e stop people escaping readily. Originally by: Bellum Eternus The upcoming web nerf And away from gates, more ships will get destroyed because their 'nano-escape button' may well be nerfed. Isn't the whole idea behind the speed nerf to stop ships being able to escape??? It works both ways, not just to prevent combat. As for the potential problems, some ships will now have no chance to get back to the gate whereas before the nerf, they did... less targets escape. Works both ways imo. I usually have a lot of time for your posts, but donÆt forget to talk about the changes in context - i.e the original reasoning behind them. The side effect may well be as you indicate (not sure that it is in all cases - as argued) but I'm not sure that it's intentional - a corporate plan. (maybe it is, time will tell, I'm still here for a while at least).
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:38:00 - [143] CanÆt say IÆm looking forward to this patch in its current state. I pirate in 0.0 (aside from tinkering with FW), anything I can get my hands on IÆll try and kill it, and generally speaking, I make reasonable amount of isk in the process, and generally everyone IÆve fought puts a little ægfÆ in local. The HP buffs hurt, my rule of the thumb is if you canÆt kill it inside of 45 seconds youÆre screwed, the remaining 15 seconds is spent grabbing the loot and warping out before all its mates/hot-drop arrive, well thatÆs pretty close these days with the array of tanking rigs available, but still doable. With that in mind the only sensible option is a damage-heavy Blasterthron, with some tank, but not plated so much it moves like a snail. Likewise it needs to have some flexibility against different targets, so it doesnÆt have the largest guns you can cram on there (tracking), plus a smartbomb for close in defence... itÆs still a HUGE risk using something like this these days, most people just go for speed instead, as 'solopwnmobile' it is not, but itÆs a nice little niche nonetheless... ...well itÆs now castrated, it moves like a snail regardless of how you fit it, it struggles to hold anything down, but more worryingly hit struggles to hit, and can be left dead in the water with no manoeuvrability. So from my perspective this patch is a case of (PVP): ôeither fly a torp-Raven in a group (missiles 4tw on Sisi), or fly in a mega-blob in a sniper Battleship, but forget about the really small scale fun battles (1 vs. 1, 1 vs. small gang, cat & mouse) because we donÆt actually like that sort of thing...ö Collateral damage from the ænano-nerfÆ? I suppose weÆll never know, no-one is giving any feedback... Splendid. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Trovarion Gallente Spook Division	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:43:00 - [144] no idea where EVE is headed after the patch, but personally I'm gonna cancel my accounts the day it hits the servers. Custom made EVE Sigs and Graphics
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.11 17:13:00 - [145] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 11/08/2008 15:00:25 Originally by: Cpt Branko stuff ... 1. about the things you looted - well those were random drops. and NOTE those were targets well worth the act of piracy. You are always ignoring my economic argument. Killing everything left, right and center with the loot as bonus makes you a PK. A pirate would look at targets, scan the cargo and modules and then attack. I know there are mechanics absent from the game that would help with this. 2. lowsec being less profitable than highsec is not the issue. if you nerf highsec profits, I will go directly 0.0. There is no reason now or in the future to make me live in lowsec. all you will accomplish is to drive off some players and limit the game for other. also the lowsec indistrialista are there only for the factory/lab slots and POSes. or are you seriously claiming somebody is fool enough to mine there ? they are importing all the materials and components. Do you believe that you should be entitled to make as much ISK as you like in safety? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Dai'nin Roi'nin Absinthe Brothers Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.11 17:20:00 - [146] Long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Blizzard gave me Aquatic form to swim through your tears! Q_Q me a river.
Gabba Yabba	Posted - 2008.08.11 17:21:00 - [147] Can't catch a mwd cruiser (no ab) burning back to gate with overheated scrambler and dual web on SISI atm. And I'm dead fraking serious.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.11 17:28:00 - [148] So many misconceptions.... Originally by: Harris Originally by: Bellum Eternus Hitpoint buff... An attempt to get battles to last longer, to make them more interesting instead of “Ooh ‘eck, I see flashing red, I’ll .... forget it, I’m back in station”. Everyone gets affected the same. Now its ooo eeek i made a mistake, but not to worry i got plenty of time to turn off my guns and wait 30 secs until i can dock (unless i am blobbed to death). Originally by: Harris Originally by: Bellum Eternus T2 Ammo damage reduction ... An attempt to stop T2 weapons being overpowered. Went too far for some ammo types to be honest but stopped battles being over for some before they began unless you were T2 fitted. i.e elitist online. (T2 was elite at one point) If battles can be slowed down, then they can introduce more options, like targetting sub-systems etc. At the moment, the thought of having enough time for this is almost a joke... See above. Originally by: Harris Originally by: Bellum Eternus Rigs are introduced There are also weapon modifying rigs which affect speeds/ranges of missiles, RoF, tracking, optimal, falloff and wholesale damage of all weapons... forget those because they didn’t suit your argument? You also forgot to mention the changes to warpcore stabilisers which went along way to changing play styles. i.e stop people escaping readily. Try to read the weapon rig descriptions and you might understand why weapon rigs are not used much. Originally by: Harris Originally by: Bellum Eternus The upcoming web nerf And away from gates, more ships will get destroyed because their 'nano-escape button' may well be nerfed. Isn't the whole idea behind the speed nerf to stop ships being able to escape??? It works both ways, not just to prevent combat. No it promotes big blobs and sensible pilots see them with scouts and stay away(less pvp.) Vs a small gang its easier to escape because the webs dont slow you down much, and the small gang dont have the dps to kill you fast enough. Vote against the nano nerf!
Macareus	Posted - 2008.08.11 17:38:00 - [149] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Eve is moving further and further away from nonconsentual combat. Offensive ship capabilities continue to get compromised while defense is improved over and over again. Webs are key to holding a target away from it's avenue of escape long enough to kill it. Now this will be defunct as well. 0.0 guys will have less of a problem with this than lowsec and empire war players, but it will still be somewhat of an issue. One of the main reasons that high sec ganking has become so popular is that it's the only way for attackers to access the ISK rich targets that never ever stray into their combat environment for any reason. They're not even able to be war decced the majority of the time due to NPC corps. Am I saying that the game is doomed and coming to an end? Of course not. But I am saying that if you're a PVPer and you like killing other players for fun or profit, you're going to be liking the results less and less. Just wait till this time next year and you're able to recount all the stories about the one's that got away instead of the ones you killed. CCP continues to reinforce the safety of those who wish to avoid PVP at all costs while doing it at the expense of the rest of the PVP crowd, regardless of what venue they PVP in, whether it be 0.0, low sec or empire. Part of the reason nobody hauls expensive stuff into lowsec is it really isn't worth it for a newer player to try to sell stuff there. The highsec market is much better because everyone lives in highsec. This is a separate issue from combat mechanics, and should be addressed - the "risk/reward" issue. The introduction of bubbles was a huge boost for 0.0 gatecampers. Any seriously pvper already had a set of insta-bms, so WTZ didn't really reduce pvp on that front. Also, if you have decent taclkers shouldn't you be able to catch someone on the other end of the gate if you don't kill them in time?
Spurty Caldari Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.11 17:54:00 - [150] on sisi, tests showed nano ships escape gate camps, but not without causalities anymore. solo nano ship jumping into a camp ready for 'anything' dies. there again: solo armor tank ship jumping into a camp ready for 'anything' dies. solo shield tank ship jumping into a camp ready for 'anything' dies. Seems pretty balanced. More roles your gang fills, the less chance someone can escape a camp. Best choice of fit for solo'gatecamp crashing on sisi = ab inty with cloak. Jump in, hold cloak till session timer expires, pulse ab towards gate and cloak as fast as possible. You should make it back to the gate safely cloaked up and jump when ready. Man goes to the doc, with a strawberry growing out of his head. Doc says "I'll give you some cream to put on it."

Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:14:00 - [151] Fights should last at least as long as they do now. The longer the fight the more tactics and actual skill matter. Those who want to fight should be able to fit their boats to fight. Those who want to escape and evade should be able to fit their boats for escaping and evading. Those two should be balanced against one another so that they are equally effective options. Those who are trying to haul stuff shouldn't have an inalienable right to escape an aggressor. Aggressors shouldn't have an automatic "I Win" when they lock a hauler or some other ship whose only chance is to escape and evade. It's called balance. What a concept. Those who want to agress helpless targets and win automatically are going to whine if they cant. Those who always want to be able to escape at will are going to whine when they cant. That's called human nature.
Ace Frehley Minmatar The Movement	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:23:00 - [152] I have bad feeling about how it will be after the patch. Big gangs of roaming RR/RS BS (ravens with missiles le win!) and a huge numbers of falcon. If you loose a fight, you basiclly dident bring enuf falcons . Cuz how you gonna catch the falcons? They got longer range then most bs and you cant supprise tackle him with a fast ship, cuz everything goes slow........
Xzar Fyrarr Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:35:00 - [153] Bellum Is Legend- That is all.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:36:00 - [154] Originally by: Ace Frehley I have bad feeling about how it will be after the patch. Big gangs of roaming RR/RS BS (ravens with missiles le win!) and a huge numbers of falcon. If you loose a fight, you basiclly dident bring enuf falcons . Cuz how you gonna catch the falcons? They got longer range then most bs and you cant supprise tackle him with a fast ship, cuz everything goes slow........ Still going to suffer the serious lack of wheaties (DPS) that force recons always have, so unless you're running a frig gang, they won't be an "I Win", since more folks will be running honest-to-god tanks now. They aren't like pre-patch Vagas who had all the escape ability and DPS too. And it's about time Ravens weren't a joke in PvP. Maybe a few of them will stop missioning and ratting and PvP a little for a change. Not to worry, if any setup proves godly it won't last. The nerf bat cometh for all men.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:47:00 - [155] The problem is people "like" winning, but but hate dying.... hence the problem. Personally; I'm all for making it easier to die. -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Harris AFK	Posted - 2008.08.11 18:58:00 - [156] Originally by: Esmenet So many misconceptions.... So narrow minded. My comments were about quoting changes to the game that were intended û apparently û to prevent PVP unless you wanted it. The changes however were not intended in the manner quoted. The side effect may well be present but can be addressed with tweaks and changes as always happens in this game if they get out of hand. Originally by: Esmenet Now its ooo eeek i made a mistake, but not to worry i got plenty of time to turn off my guns and wait 30 secs until i can dock (unless i am blobbed to death).... Because of course, every pilot has the skills and fittings to ensure that they will live for 30 seconds in any given circumstance... Why IÆm surprised the killboards even bother being run anymore because no-one dies at stations or gates anymore since the HP buff.... and theyÆre the only places pvp takes place right...? oh wait.... Not everyone can have a tank that will last 30 seconds - and they tried to stop insta-re-dock by making you exit at full speed. Doesn't work on all types of stations cos of docking range but it was a step in the right direction... forgotten in the argument? If your idea of pvp is vapourising (easy ganking) someone whoÆs screen hasnÆt even loaded then this discourse is pointless. Originally by: Esmenet See above. See above. You keep forgetting my point. They want the all-out-gank-vapourised-in-a-jiffy mentality to be gone, just as they want the nano-fad to go. Battles lasting longer is good for the game because it gives time for tactics or time for manoeuvre (to a limited degree, granted; but still). Blob warfare was always there, it is now a problem as much because of the numbers of pilots in the game nowadays, as it is because of the motto of many ôTry to fight with your friends, it gives them more people to shoot atö Originally by: Esmenet Try to read the weapon rig descriptions and you might understand why weapon rigs are not used much. And yet they work and they are used ûa- plenty on setups-other-than-speed... You use rigs suitable for your fighting style. You have a defensive sytle then... I know plenty of people who strive to get the most out of their ships other than defense. People fit for purpose and fighting style. Always have. Always will. Your point is more that the cumulation of stacking on certain modules that has gotten out of hand that is the problem, not the fact that they are around or that you don't use them much on your ships. If itÆs broken, suggest a fix. Originally by: Esmenet No it promotes big blobs and sensible pilots see them with scouts and stay away (less pvp.) Vs a small gang its easier to escape because the webs dont slow you down much, and the small gang donÆt have the dps to kill you fast enough. Because big blobs donÆt exist at the moment??? ItÆs all a matter of scale isnÆt it? Take the nano-argument because its so popular right now. Just as it takes a reasonably well organised gang to engage a blob because itÆs nano fitted, it takes a reasonably well organised gang to kill a nano gang. You canÆt have it both ways. If theyÆre going to engage, theyÆre going to engage. (aka û same amount of pvp û same amount of deaths as people work to adapt on both sides) How about looking at it this way. It won't promote offensive blobs. It will promote defensive blobs but who defends territory in small groups if they know another small group is around??? Small gang warfare is limited at the moment anyway. Nothing will change there. People are complaining about the nano-nerf saying it will ruin pvp because people will avoid engagements. WasnÆt a problem before the nano-fad came around, wonÆt be a problem after it. Frankly, if it gets rid of the people who only nanoÆd because they wouldnÆt lose their ship then IÆm all for it.
Harris AFK	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:00:00 - [157] Edited by: Harris on 11/08/2008 19:04:56 Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 11/08/2008 18:20:12 Fights should last at least as long as they do now. The longer the fight the more tactics and actual skill matter. Those who want to fight should be able to fit their boats to fight. Those who want to escape and evade should be able to fit their boats for escaping and evading. Those two should be balanced against one another so that they are equally effective options. Those who are trying to haul stuff shouldn't have an inalienable right to escape an aggressor. Aggressors shouldn't have an automatic "I Win" when they lock a hauler or some other ship whose only chance is to escape and evade. It should come down to who had the better counter to whatever their opponent had fit, and there shouldn't be any "ultimate" setup for which there is no counter. It's called balance. What a concept. Those who want to agress helpless targets and win automatically are going to whine if they cant. Those who always want to be able to escape at will are going to whine when they cant. That's called human nature. This /\ Originally by: Ace Frehley I have bad feeling about how it will be after the patch. Big gangs of roaming RR/RS BS (ravens with missiles le win!) and a huge numbers of falcon. If you loose a fight, you basiclly dident bring enuf falcons . Cuz how you gonna catch the falcons? They got longer range then most bs and you cant supprise tackle him with a fast ship, cuz everything goes slow........ Right now the falcon pilot just has to get to 150km and kite it. Anyone locks him, he's jammed ... and so the long day wears on. After the nerf, the range isn't going to be such a problem but apart from that, what's different from nowadays?
Princess Jodi Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:05:00 - [158] Originally by: Bellum Eternus So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill when I started thinking about the upcoming patch, how it's going to affect PVP in general.... The OP lost me right there. Cruising High-Sec looking for haulers is NOT PVP.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:09:00 - [159] Originally by: Princess Jodi The OP lost me right there. Cruising High-Sec looking for haulers is NOT PVP. Originally by: Wikipedia Player vs player, or PvP, is competitive interaction within a game between two or more live participants. Well, look at that. I guess you where wrong there, Jodi.
Corduroy Rab Xenocidal Uprising	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:14:00 - [160] Originally by: Arctur Ceti Originally by: Bellum Eternus So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill... Have you tried other forms of PVP besides ganking untanked AFK haulers in hi sec? I hear in low sec there's plenty of PVP to be had. Bellum Eternus likely isnt totally accurate, but should give a good idea

Iyachtu Achlysiel Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:38:00 - [161] Originally by: Esmenet Now its ooo eeek i made a mistake, but not to worry i got plenty of time to turn off my guns and wait 30 secs until i can dock (unless i am blobbed to death). Might be worth it to increase the docking delay. Then again it might not. If you don't have a realistic chance to redock despite having made a mistake, then the solution is simple. Don't engage in the first place. Instead of these interesting situations where people try to kill the bait outside the station and then redock before the gank squad incinerates them, sometimes succeeding and sometimes dying horribly, we'd have more sitting outside station and smacking at the guy inside who went afk half an hour ago. Quote: Try to read the weapon rig descriptions and you might understand why weapon rigs are not used much. They're in need of tweaking, yes. It'd be better if they'd hit cap or something instead of utterly messing up your fits. Sure, if you're using T1, then you'll have PG/CPU to spare, but there's not much point in rigging up cheap junk.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:38:00 - [162] Edited by: Esmenet on 11/08/2008 19:44:48 Originally by: Harris Because of course, every pilot has the skills and fittings to ensure that they will live for 30 seconds in any given circumstance... Why I’m surprised the killboards even bother being run anymore because no-one dies at stations or gates anymore since the HP buff.... and they’re the only places pvp takes place right...? oh wait.... Perhaps you missed the part about blobbing. Dps from one ship has just been replaced by more ships. Heck even bumping is nerfed in the next patch to encourage more docking games. Quote: Not everyone can have a tank that will last 30 seconds - and they tried to stop insta-re-dock by making you exit at full speed. Doesn't work on all types of stations cos of docking range but it was a step in the right direction... forgotten in the argument? Considering the 30 sec invulnerability at start the ships would have to be pretty evenly matched or in favour of the "defender" for him to attack in the first place. If the tables are then turned from misjudging the other ship, its not exactly going to be instapopped unless you bring in a blob of other ships. Quote: If your idea of pvp is vapourising (easy ganking) someone who’s screen hasn’t even loaded then this discourse is pointless. Actually vaporising is incredibly important in the current pvp, its just done by multiple ships. Quote: They want the all-out-gank-vapourised-in-a-jiffy mentality to be gone, just as they want the nano-fad to go. Encouraging blobbing and focus fire dont exactly leave much room for manouvering and "long fights". Quote: You use rigs suitable for your fighting style. You have a defensive sytle then... I know plenty of people who strive to get the most out of their ships other than defense. People fit for purpose and fighting style. Always have. Always will. No the defensive rigs have much better bonuses and much less severe penalties compared to most of the weapon rigs. A ship with weapon rigs will underperform compared to the same ship with typically a tanking or cap rig. You can allow some exceptions ofcourse for instance on PVE ships where tanking more than a certain level is worthless. Quote: Because big blobs don’t exist at the moment??? It’s all a matter of scale isn’t it? Yes blobs exist but thats not an excuse for encouraging more blobbing. Quote: How about looking at it this way. It won't promote offensive blobs. It will promote defensive blobs but who defends territory in small groups if they know another small group is around??? Small gang warfare is limited at the moment anyway. Nothing will change there. Small gang warfare is pretty much the only pvp i can do unless i am forced to go posbashing. Speed is very important for the small gangs chances to do something in hostile territory without getting blobbed in and forced to cloak for 5 hours or do a logoffski. Quote: People are complaining about the nano-nerf saying it will ruin pvp because people will avoid engagements. Wasn’t a problem before the nano-fad came around, won’t be a problem after it. Frankly, if it gets rid of the people who only nano’d because they wouldn’t lose their ship then I’m all for it. 0.0 is very different from what it was in the "glory days". Vote against the nano nerf!
FlameGlow Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:42:00 - [163] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Princess Jodi The OP lost me right there. Cruising High-Sec looking for haulers is NOT PVP. Originally by: Wikipedia Player vs player, or PvP, is competitive interaction within a game between two or more live participants. Well, look at that. I guess you where wrong there, Jodi. Ah, definitions, who cares about them? If you strictly follow definitions you could say for example that being a pirate is impossible in 0.0 (piracy is defined as illegal activity and there are no laws in 0.0 so nothing is illegal) _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:43:00 - [164] Originally by: FlameGlow Ah, definitions, who cares about them? If you strictly follow definitions you could say for example that being a pirate is impossible in 0.0 (piracy is defined as illegal activity and there are no laws in 0.0 so nothing is illegal) That's true, but what does that have to do with Jodi being wrong?
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:43:00 - [165] Originally by: Iyachtu Achlysiel They're in need of tweaking, yes. It'd be better if they'd hit cap or something instead of utterly messing up your fits. Sure, if you're using T1, then you'll have PG/CPU to spare, but there's not much point in rigging up cheap junk. And damage rigs for instance suffers stacking penalties with damage mods while most defensive rigs escape stacking penalities. Since the weapon rigs are worse than a damage mod while punishing you with heavy fitting penalties you cant exactly swap one for the other wither. Vote against the nano nerf!
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.11 21:10:00 - [166] Originally by: Ace Frehley I have bad feeling about how it will be after the patch. Big gangs of roaming RR/RS BS (ravens with missiles le win!) and a huge numbers of falcon. If you loose a fight, you basiclly dident bring enuf falcons . Cuz how you gonna catch the falcons? They got longer range then most bs and you cant supprise tackle him with a fast ship, cuz everything goes slow........ This just in: no, actually, plenty of battleships can and do outrange falcons. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Doctor Hourai	Posted - 2008.08.11 21:26:00 - [167] Originally by: Furb Killer tl;dr version: Suicide ganker whines he hasnt total risk free profit. Did it ever occur to you that a 1 minute long fight is more fun for both the loser and the winner than a 7 second fight where the winner alpha strikes the loser? Which brings us to point 2, the only pvp you know is ganking unarmed haulers without any risk someone shoots you, that doesnt make it the only form of pvp in eve... You are an idiot. Don't you EVER post again unless you research what you are talking about. I cannot explain enough to you how much of a moron you are. How dare you, you presumptuous *******. Please refer here: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Bellum+Eternus-kills.html#show << this is rough and tentative, as BC is not the msot accurate KB on the planet :P . Now, stop talking and listen to someone who knows WHAT they are talking about.
McTard	Posted - 2008.08.11 21:40:00 - [168] Quote: unless i am forced to go posbashing. Speed is very important for the small gangs chances to do something in hostile territory without getting blobbed in and forced to cloak for 5 hours or do a logoffski. In other words it will be more boring and naturally there will be much less of it. Forced to defend yourself you mean, forced to actually have a chance of losing your ship in not 100% optimal circumstances. Forced to actually have a slight chance of NOT getting through a bubble, no longer almost completely immune to precision missiles. Enjoy the coming times!
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.11 21:50:00 - [169] Originally by: Spurty on sisi, tests showed nano ships escape gate camps, but not without causalities anymore. solo nano ship jumping into a camp ready for 'anything' dies. there again: solo armor tank ship jumping into a camp ready for 'anything' dies. solo shield tank ship jumping into a camp ready for 'anything' dies. Seems pretty balanced. More roles your gang fills, the less chance someone can escape a camp. Best choice of fit for solo'gatecamp crashing on sisi = ab inty with cloak. Jump in, hold cloak till session timer expires, pulse ab towards gate and cloak as fast as possible. You should make it back to the gate safely cloaked up and jump when ready. /thread
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.11 21:55:00 - [170] Eve pvp has been in a state of "gank or be ganked" for quite some time. It is a rare treat indeed for two similarly equipped gangs (ie, one not specifically tailored to kill the other) with similar numbers and pilots of equivalent skill to engage in quality combat. "Combat" in Eve consists largely of being on the giving or recieving end of a gank. Patches that favor "encouraging committed pvp" won't make the risk-averse pvp-ers any more interested in undertaking risk. Patches that favor "protecting carebears" won't make the idiots who actually get caught by suicide ganks any smarter/situationally aware. You can't patch a power-gamer. Power-gamers who care about their wallet will find ways to maximize profit with minimal risk. Power-gamers who care about pvp will find ways to maximise k/d ratio at minimal risk. People can talk about wanting "good, fun fights" all they want...but it's just talk. In the end, people want to "win" (which can mean a dozen different things in a game like Eve: retaining space in 0.0, having a kick-ass k/d ratio, having a big wallet, whatever) and will take whatever means possible to do that. The more Eve changes, the more it stays the same really.

Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.11 21:56:00 - [171] Edited by: Esmenet on 11/08/2008 21:56:28 Originally by: McTard Quote: unless i am forced to go posbashing. Speed is very important for the small gangs chances to do something in hostile territory without getting blobbed in and forced to cloak for 5 hours or do a logoffski. In other words it will be more boring and naturally there will be much less of it. Forced to defend yourself you mean, forced to actually have a chance of losing your ship in not 100% optimal circumstances. Forced to actually have a slight chance of NOT getting through a bubble, no longer almost completely immune to precision missiles. Enjoy the coming times! No i wont wait in my battleship for your blob outnumbering me 5+-1 to attack or jump into your gatecamp. I will cloak or log off unless our scouts **** up. Vote against the nano nerf!
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.08.11 22:00:00 - [172] Bellum could you maybe toss in a word about how borked minmatar gates are with regards to the distance it puts a target from you when they jump in. Sitting at 0 on a gate and they appear up to 40km away.... what a joke.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.08.11 22:42:00 - [173] What a festival of ignorance. I have not seen so many clueless, fruity carebears in my entire eve career. Originally by: Hugh Ruka killing evrything that jumps through a gate is not piracy. Piracy by definition has economic(sp?) motives behind. that includes making sure the target is worth the ammo you are wasting. every carebear would be ok if lowsec only had proper wars and proper piracy. it's the senseless PKing that's the problem. What the **ing ** is PKing? peacekeeping? podkilling? You are stupid if you lose a pod in low sec. lol. There is no way that you can determine whether a target is worth killing. Even if you wanted to ship/cargo scan people there is no way that you could scan every single one and it is quite likely that they would then be alerted to something unusual going on. There is just no way to determine if a target will be profitable without killing or ransoming them. It would also be pretty stupid to leave someone right there next to you so they can cyno in their friend's cap fleet. You and your ilk are just clueless. Sit down, and listen to the adults(Bellum, Branko, et al.)
Lucy'Lastic	Posted - 2008.08.11 22:46:00 - [174] HP buff was because CCP wanted fights to last longer. Speed nerf is because CCP want people to commit to a fight. WTZ was done because of all the bookmarks people had creating lag. Web nerf is puzzling. I need to check it on Sisi. Suicide gank nerf was done to prevent 'ganking for lulz' because people abused the insurance system. It was NOT done to protect afk haulers, billion isk CNRs, freighters piloted by out of corp alts in NPC corps and BPO hauling shuttles. If that where CCPs intention they would have made it impossible to fire on a target in Empire. For anybody that thought 'Ganking for lulz' in Hisec was part of the 'Cold Harsh Universe' that CCP created and was an 'intended feature' of allowing us to suicide gank people in Hisec- CCP just told you that you're wrong.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.11 22:51:00 - [175] Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Suicide gank nerf was done to prevent 'ganking for lulz' because people abused the insurance system. It was NOT done to protect afk haulers, billion isk CNRs, freighters piloted by out of corp alts in NPC corps and BPO hauling shuttles. That's pretty funny, because that's exactly what it does.
Jaabaa Prime Minmatar Quam Singulari	Posted - 2008.08.11 22:54:00 - [176] Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'm not going to state my opinion about where I think it's headed however. Stopped reading right there. If you don't have an opinion that you are going to post on then why even start a thread ? --
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.11 22:56:00 - [177] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Originally by: Bellum Eternus I'm not going to state my opinion about where I think it's headed however. Stopped reading right there. If you don't have an opinion that you are going to post on then why even start a thread ? If you had continued reading you probably would have understood the post. Just saying.
DaDutchDude	Posted - 2008.08.11 23:31:00 - [178] Originally by: Garreck You can't patch a power-gamer. Power-gamers who care about their wallet will find ways to maximize profit with minimal risk. Power-gamers who care about pvp will find ways to maximise k/d ratio at minimal risk. People can talk about wanting "good, fun fights" all they want...but it's just talk. In the end, people want to "win" (which can mean a dozen different things in a game like Eve: retaining space in 0.0, having a kick-ass k/d ratio, having a big wallet, whatever) and will take whatever means possible to do that. The more Eve changes, the more it stays the same really. What he said ^^
Doctor Hourai	Posted - 2008.08.11 23:47:00 - [179] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto What a festival of ignorance. I have not seen so many clueless, fruity carebears in my entire eve career. Originally by: Hugh Ruka killing evrything that jumps through a gate is not piracy. Piracy by definition has economic(sp?) motives behind. that includes making sure the target is worth the ammo you are wasting. every carebear would be ok if lowsec only had proper wars and proper piracy. it's the senseless PKing that's the problem. What the **ing ** is PKing? peacekeeping? podkilling? You are stupid if you lose a pod in low sec. lol. There is no way that you can determine whether a target is worth killing. Even if you wanted to ship/cargo scan people there is no way that you could scan every single one and it is quite likely that they would then be alerted to something unusual going on. There is just no way to determine if a target will be profitable without killing or ransoming them. It would also be pretty stupid to leave someone right there next to you so they can cyno in their friend's cap fleet. You and your ilk are just clueless. Sit down, and listen to the adults(Bellum, Branko, et al.) HAHAHA yes this moron again. No PKing is a term derived from Runescape (run, escape) meaning player killing. idiots and 5 year olds play runescape.
Qduhaf	Posted - 2008.08.12 00:38:00 - [180] OP failed to mention a very significant change that really affected PVP opportunities, though they were both buffs rather than nerfs. Jump Drives really reduced traffic at the same time introduced hot dropping and resulted in blob to win 0.0 mentality. Before everyone had carriers, you had to transport ships, modules an materials through 0.0 and low sec. now you just have to blob out a couple systems and you can move everything without much risk. hot dropping also reduced PVP, why bother to engage with anything near even odds if you don't have a fleet of caps standing by. If there was one change that have dramatic increase in PVP it would be to remove the jump drives (and jump bridges) from the game.

Cruel Crow	Posted - 2008.08.12 00:43:00 - [181] Originally by: Qduhaf OP failed to mention a very significant change that really affected PVP opportunities, though they were both buffs rather than nerfs. Jump Drives really reduced traffic at the same time introduced hot dropping and resulted in blob to win 0.0 mentality. Before everyone had carriers, you had to transport ships, modules an materials through 0.0 and low sec. now you just have to blob out a couple systems and you can move everything without much risk. hot dropping also reduced PVP, why bother to engage with anything near even odds if you don't have a fleet of caps standing by. If there was one change that have dramatic increase in PVP it would be to remove the jump drives (and jump bridges) from the game. Remove Cyno Jamers and you will bring PVP back to EVE
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 01:15:00 - [182] Originally by: Qduhaf OP failed to mention a very significant change that really affected PVP opportunities, though they were both buffs rather than nerfs. Jump Drives really reduced traffic at the same time introduced hot dropping and resulted in blob to win 0.0 mentality. Before everyone had carriers, you had to transport ships, modules an materials through 0.0 and low sec. now you just have to blob out a couple systems and you can move everything without much risk. hot dropping also reduced PVP, why bother to engage with anything near even odds if you don't have a fleet of caps standing by. If there was one change that have dramatic increase in PVP it would be to remove the jump drives (and jump bridges) from the game. You're quite right. Additionally, with the introduction of jump freighters and Titans with their jump bridges it even further reduces the possibility of choking targets into submission. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.08.12 02:33:00 - [183] I haven't been around for most of those changes, but eve pvp has struck me as highly consentual from the start... suppose it's just what I've always known. On the other hand, the other aspects of this speed nerf patch (besides the web change) should result in more explosions. More explosions would help bring the ship class inflation back down a few notches.
Sophia Esperanza Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.12 02:43:00 - [184] Originally by: Tzigan Jegos Originally by: Zephyr Rengate My main concern at the moment is how safe and rich high sec space is. Too safe. Too rich. Make all hi sec agents quality -15 and all low sec ones +20 bingo. If places like Ummoka were low sec? gfg.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.12 03:34:00 - [185] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Furb Killer What i really like to know, there seems to be two opinions here: Eve is going to die/suck because people cant escape from blobs. In other words: Nanos cant escape when jumping into a larger fleet. Eve is going to die/suck because people can escape non consensual combat. In other words: Ships can escape when jumping into a larger fleet (or at least when they are outgunned). I like to know which one exactly is the reason eve is going to die/suck. /thread and sig material If you can get it through your head, try both: Eve is going to die/suck because no one can escape from blobs. Eve is going to die/suck because everyone can escape from 1v1. Should be somewhat reversed if you want a fun game. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 06:44:00 - [186] Just thought of something else: scripts have heavily nerfed the lock time bonuses of sensor boosters, further reducing the advantage of attackers. GG CCP. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.12 06:58:00 - [187] Originally by: Doctor Hourai Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto What a festival of ignorance. I have not seen so many clueless, fruity carebears in my entire eve career. Originally by: Hugh Ruka killing evrything that jumps through a gate is not piracy. Piracy by definition has economic(sp?) motives behind. that includes making sure the target is worth the ammo you are wasting. every carebear would be ok if lowsec only had proper wars and proper piracy. it's the senseless PKing that's the problem. What the **ing ** is PKing? peacekeeping? podkilling? You are stupid if you lose a pod in low sec. lol. There is no way that you can determine whether a target is worth killing. Even if you wanted to ship/cargo scan people there is no way that you could scan every single one and it is quite likely that they would then be alerted to something unusual going on. There is just no way to determine if a target will be profitable without killing or ransoming them. It would also be pretty stupid to leave someone right there next to you so they can cyno in their friend's cap fleet. You and your ilk are just clueless. Sit down, and listen to the adults(Bellum, Branko, et al.) HAHAHA yes this moron again. No PKing is a term derived from Runescape (run, escape) meaning player killing. idiots and 5 year olds play runescape. Don't be an idiot. PKing is as old as the first MUDs that allowed PvP. It became known more in UO. Seems you guys don't play games that long ... It's actualy the term predating PvP ... it has a negative meaning, because at that times, killing another player was considered against the rules of the game. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.12 06:59:00 - [188] Originally by: Synapse Archae Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Furb Killer What i really like to know, there seems to be two opinions here: Eve is going to die/suck because people cant escape from blobs. In other words: Nanos cant escape when jumping into a larger fleet. Eve is going to die/suck because people can escape non consensual combat. In other words: Ships can escape when jumping into a larger fleet (or at least when they are outgunned). I like to know which one exactly is the reason eve is going to die/suck. /thread and sig material If you can get it through your head, try both: Eve is going to die/suck because no one can escape from blobs. Eve is going to die/suck because everyone can escape from 1v1. Should be somewhat reversed if you want a fun game. you mean: Eve is going to die/suck because everyone can escape from blobs. Eve is going to die/suck because no one can escape from 1v1. that has no logic as well ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 07:01:00 - [189] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Synapse Archae Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Furb Killer What i really like to know, there seems to be two opinions here: Eve is going to die/suck because people cant escape from blobs. In other words: Nanos cant escape when jumping into a larger fleet. Eve is going to die/suck because people can escape non consensual combat. In other words: Ships can escape when jumping into a larger fleet (or at least when they are outgunned). I like to know which one exactly is the reason eve is going to die/suck. /thread and sig material If you can get it through your head, try both: Eve is going to die/suck because no one can escape from blobs. Eve is going to die/suck because everyone can escape from 1v1. Should be somewhat reversed if you want a fun game. you mean: Eve is going to die/suck because everyone can escape from blobs. Eve is going to die/suck because no one can escape from 1v1. that has no logic as well ... What? Syn had it right the first time. What are you talking about? Don't be obtuse. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.12 07:55:00 - [190] Edited by: Furb Killer on 12/08/2008 08:00:22 Quote: You are an idiot. Don't you EVER post again unless you research what you are talking about. I cannot explain enough to you how much of a moron you are. How dare you, you presumptuous *******. Please refer here: http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Bellum+Eternus-kills.html#show << this is rough and tentative, as BC is not the msot accurate KB on the planet :P . Now, stop talking and listen to someone who knows WHAT they are talking about. For some weird reason you apparently tried to probe my mind and found out i didnt knew allready about who he was. You were wrong... I even checked battleclinic, and what do i see? A shitload of kills and barely losses. Now there are 2 possibilities. He can be an awesome pvp'er with the best tactics who always managed to takes out a similar or better armed opponent. Or possibility 2 is that he mainly shoots opponents that arent armed at all, are total noobs or are completely outgunned. Now i dont say he isnt a good player, but it is pretty obvious he does possibility 2 also. Now again, i dont say something is wrong with doing that. I personally dont like it, but if he likes it that is fine for me. But he shouldnt act like that represents all pvp in in eve. Like i said before: He doesnt like the changes from his pvp point of view. I do like the changes from my pvp point of view. Guess which opinion is more important to me... @murder, pretty obvious to me. He thinks it should be normal you can escape from a blob, but you shouldnt be able to escape from a solo player? That just doesnt make any sense. And with changes it doesnt become harder to run from blobs compared to running from solo players. And lets not forget, the average target of him doesnt even know he can run back to the gate.

murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 08:19:00 - [191] Quote: I even checked battleclinic, and what do i see? A shitload of kills and barely losses. Now there are 2 possibilities. He can be an awesome pvp'er with the best tactics who always managed to takes out a similar or better armed opponent. Or possibility 2 is that he mainly shoots opponents that arent armed at all, are total noobs or are completely outgunned. Looks to me like he does both equally well. How does doing one over the other diminish the value of what he says? Quote: He doesnt like the changes from his pvp point of view. I do like the changes from my pvp point of view. Guess which opinion is more important to me... I re-read his post: seems to me that he didn't say "I don't like the changes". What I got from his post was "here's what is going to happen for all PVPers, regardless of how you play, you've been informed." Quote: @murder, pretty obvious to me. He thinks it should be normal you can escape from a blob, but you shouldnt be able to escape from a solo player? That just doesnt make any sense. And with changes it doesnt become harder to run from blobs compared to running from solo players. Again, are you being dense on purpose? Clearly the point was this: that completing kills solo will now be much more difficult, and that even more ships will now be required as a standard minimum to ensure a dependable outcome (a kill) when a target presents itself. Not that this is buffing 'blobs', but rather demanding that they be used in order for players to be effective in PVP. Both situations are bad. Quote: And lets not forget, the average target of him doesnt even know he can run back to the gate. It sounds like you're making some very large assumptions about a player you know nothing about with the above statement. Further more, what does this have to do with anything regarding what he stated in the original post? Are you simply continuing with this point so as to try and diminish his credability? Is that the only rebuttal you have to his post? It's obvious you can't come up with any valid data to refute his original point. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Mangold Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:44:00 - [192] The thing that worries me is that all the latest changes are promoting blobs. As has been already said, people often avoid risks and in pvp this often involves getting a bigger gang than the opponent. This is the human nature and no surprice. Especially in eve where a loss actually has an impact on your game play as you have to get a new ship (and isk to buy it). Having said that, the opportunities for solo pvp is decreasing all the time. If you want a fight it'll be at a gate, station or belt. If it's at station or gate you'll need to gank the opponent fast or he'll make it back to the gate or dock up. How do you do that? Get more firepower, i e a blob, or you get several ships with different fittings (webs, scram etcetera). How is that fun? I realise that this is supposed to be a team playing game and I am all in favor of that but solo play should be possible too. If you add cyno jammers, jump bridges, destructable stations services and other fun 0.0 stuff you find a game that not only encourage blobs, it makes it mandatory. We all know how good the game handles that don't we? I've been in enough laggy pos battles to avoid them. It's not fun jumping to a system and waking up in a new clone 30 mins later without loading or even seeing the fight. That just makes people quit. All in all lag stops skill in the game matter and only numbers and skill at handling lag will matter. That's not the game I want to play.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.12 10:11:00 - [193] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Synapse Archae Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Furb Killer What i really like to know, there seems to be two opinions here: Eve is going to die/suck because people cant escape from blobs. In other words: Nanos cant escape when jumping into a larger fleet. Eve is going to die/suck because people can escape non consensual combat. In other words: Ships can escape when jumping into a larger fleet (or at least when they are outgunned). I like to know which one exactly is the reason eve is going to die/suck. /thread and sig material If you can get it through your head, try both: Eve is going to die/suck because no one can escape from blobs. Eve is going to die/suck because everyone can escape from 1v1. Should be somewhat reversed if you want a fun game. you mean: Eve is going to die/suck because everyone can escape from blobs. Eve is going to die/suck because no one can escape from 1v1. that has no logic as well ... What? Syn had it right the first time. What are you talking about? Don't be obtuse. ok now you got me totaly confused ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 10:19:00 - [194] Originally by: Hugh Ruka ok now you got me totaly confused ... The upcoming changes reduce solo PVP chances of success, and therefor mandate the need for larger groups of players in order to attack single targets and complete the kill, thereby increasing the number of blobs and reducing the number of solo players. Both are bad. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 10:54:00 - [195] This is a bit of a rant, so I apologise for those that know me to be reasonable and mild-mannered on the forums. Originally by: Bellum Eternus I hate WoW. WoW ***ing sucks. Why? Because all the stupid people can do just as well as all the really smart people. Why? Because it's too simple and easy. Explain to me how combat* PvP requires a brain (as opposed to some twitch skills when manually flying), not just using someone else's cookie cutter fit and following the FC like a drone, and I'll begin to believe your argument. By comparison, playing the trade market requires vastly more personal thought and capability. I come from the same angle, that I want EVE to benefit those with a brain. So far in most combat it doesn't seem to. Pirating in particular doesn't seem to, it's get group, make gatecamp and kill stuff in a lot of cases - doesn't seem that difficult to me, since everyone has already worked out what can tank sentries and what can't, and so on. If anything, the proposed changes will force people to think and adapt, which I'd call rewarding those with a brain. So, please, explain to me your vision of EVE for the thinking person, because so far I'm not seeing it. As an aside, this has nothing to do with PvP vs carebears and reducing it to that just makes you look like a childish teenager and I know you're not. Let the idiots believe that carebears are ruining their fun; it's bull and you know it. I want a real argument, not something pandering to the immature segment. Any fool knows that PvP is a two-sided game and when you have no guns, you're going to work hard to make sure you don't get on the wrong side of someone else's - fun goes both ways and both sides play to win. Originally by: Bellum Eternus Everyone has the exact same opportunity to kill everyone else. Rubbish - we don't all fly the same ship, we don't all fly in the same groups, we don't all have the same skills, heck almost a quarter of the ships in the game can't mount weapons. This isn't Unreal Tournament. Heck maybe it should be given the thinking ability some demonstrate. I want PvP to be fun, I want EVE not to be totally safe, but I have zero respect for those that refuse to acknowledge that everyone here plays for fun, and that if you're out mining, getting blown up isn't fun, and therefore the player is going to do something to avoid that. It might be get friends, it might be stay in high-sec, it might be many things that reward the thinking person and none of them are exploits simply because they deny the attacker some idiotic killmail and a bigger e-peen. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.12 11:15:00 - [196] Originally by: murder one Quote: I even checked battleclinic, and what do i see? A shitload of kills and barely losses. Now there are 2 possibilities. He can be an awesome pvp'er with the best tactics who always managed to takes out a similar or better armed opponent. Or possibility 2 is that he mainly shoots opponents that arent armed at all, are total noobs or are completely outgunned. Looks to me like he does both equally well. How does doing one over the other diminish the value of what he says? I should according to the one i reacted on (might be you, too lazy to check) be impressed by his battleclinic stats. And to that i responded with this part. Not that hard to get. Quote: Quote: He doesnt like the changes from his pvp point of view. I do like the changes from my pvp point of view. Guess which opinion is more important to me... I re-read his post: seems to me that he didn't say "I don't like the changes". What I got from his post was "here's what is going to happen for all PVPers, regardless of how you play, you've been informed." Yeah right, can i join your dream world? He is just telling us pvp will suck after changes. And he tells it is independant on how you pvp, but that is just not true. If i do only belt pvp i dont need to worry about targets running back to a gate. If i probe mission runners i also dont need to worry. If i canbait in high sec belts i dont need to worry, etc. And he made pretty clear he didnt like the changes. That it is kinda becoming a habbit here to start a new topic with: this is not a whine/rant/etc or something similar doesnt mean it isnt one. Quote: Quote: @murder, pretty obvious to me. He thinks it should be normal you can escape from a blob, but you shouldnt be able to escape from a solo player? That just doesnt make any sense. And with changes it doesnt become harder to run from blobs compared to running from solo players. Again, are you being dense on purpose? Clearly the point was this: that completing kills solo will now be much more difficult, and that even more ships will now be required as a standard minimum to ensure a dependable outcome (a kill) when a target presents itself. Not that this is buffing 'blobs', but rather demanding that they be used in order for players to be effective in PVP. Both situations are bad. Imo it is good that people can fit ships to give them larger chance to escape small gatecamps, i really dont see why the campers should get guaranteed kills on less armed ships. Especially when apparently people should be able to escape blobs when they are less armed, but shouldnt escape solo players? Sorry but it still doesnt make sense. Quote: Quote: And lets not forget, the average target of him doesnt even know he can run back to the gate. It sounds like you're making some very large assumptions about a player you know nothing about with the above statement. Further more, what does this have to do with anything regarding what he stated in the original post? Are you simply continuing with this point so as to try and diminish his credability? Is that the only rebuttal you have to his post? It's obvious you can't come up with any valid data to refute his original point. It is obvious that you have nothing usefull to add to this topic. This has nothing to do with his credibility. But apparently you prefer to try to decredit me than reacting on topic. It is pretty simple: He says he will lose many kills when playing solo because they will all just run back to gate. I say many of his targets dont even know you can run back. Nop i dont know how skilled his victims are exactly, but a quick look on battleclinic: Last kill a vexor with 1 OD, 1 heatsink, 2 pdus fitted in low slots. Rest of slots isnt much better. Next an apoc with 7! ODs fitted, 3 large shield boosters, mining drones, and i really hope that KM was bugged because it makes sad panda. They wont run back.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.12 11:31:00 - [197] Edited by: Maximillian Bayonette on 12/08/2008 11:33:41 Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Explain to me how combat PvP requires a brain (as opposed to some twitch skills when manually flying), not just using someone else's cookie cutter fit and following the FC like a drone, and I'll begin to believe your argument. He's not talking about blob warfare where you just obey the FC, lock and press F1-F8. He's talking about small gang and solo pvp where every decision you make will make or break you. A PvP encounter doesn't begin when one ship points another. It begins when contact is first made, be it via scout, scanner, local or some other means. PvP takes skill in ship setup (most successful PvPers don't rely on forums setups, because they mostly suck), finding the fight, catching the prey (prey in this case does not mean 'unarmed') and disposing of the prey while keeping your ship. Skill is the difference between success and failure in any one of those segments. Originally by: Astria Tiphareth By comparison, playing the trade market requires vastly more personal thought and capability. Playing the market takes a lot of skill too. Mission running and mining, however, does not. Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Originally by: Bellum Eternus Everyone has the exact same opportunity to kill everyone else. Rubbish - we don't all fly the same ship, we don't all fly in the same groups, we don't all have the same skills, heck almost a quarter of the ships in the game can't mount weapons. This isn't Unreal Tournament. Heck maybe it should be given the thinking ability some demonstrate. You still have the same potential chance of killing anyone as they have killing you. It's your choice not to train the skills required to do the job. From the get go, we all get a noobship and 15k isk. We all have the same potential. Originally by: Astria Tiphareth I want PvP to be fun, I want EVE not to be totally safe, I'd like the carebear vs PvP to merge closer together instead of being diametrically opposite, but I have zero respect for those that refuse to acknowledge that everyone here plays for fun and plays to win. If you're out mining, getting blown up isn't fun, and therefore the player is going to do something to avoid that. It might be get friends, it might be stay in high-sec, it might be many things that reward the thinking person and none of them are exploits simply because they deny the attacker some idiotic killmail and a bigger e-peen. All but the "stay in high sec" part are viable options. Stay in high sec should NOT be an option for anyone wanting to make good cash. The reasons for that has been explained again and again in this and other threads. High sec could be completely safe for all I care, but then it should give NO rewards. If it is to have a little risk - like it does now - then it should have little reward. It's the basic concept the game is built on.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.08.12 11:42:00 - [198] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Hugh Ruka ok now you got me totaly confused ... The upcoming changes reduce solo PVP chances of success, and therefor mandate the need for larger groups of players in order to attack single targets and complete the kill, thereby increasing the number of blobs and reducing the number of solo players. Both are bad. Are we still talking about an MMO? You make it sound like if player cooperation is a bad thing. Ok granted blobs are not fun. But since this game facilitates a straight forward increase in applied DPS with increased number of participants, there is nothing you can do about it. And to break this linearity, you need to play a different game. Anyway you did not understand my post :-) I was asking about the part where he said it should be actualy a bit reversed. So I reversed his statmement and you replied I am an idiot. So when his original is not true and my reversed statement is not true, what then do you want ? --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Drykor Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.08.12 11:42:00 - [199] /Signed
mishkof Caldari Finis Lumen	Posted - 2008.08.12 11:45:00 - [200] Originally by: Bellum Eternus So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill when I started thinking about the upcoming patch, how it's going to affect PVP in general, and how all the previous patches have affected PVP. I'm not going to state my opinion about where I think it's headed however. I just want to put some facts out there and their contributions to PVP in general: (sort of in order by date, oldest first) Hitpoint buff, then HP buff again: increased the time required to kill a target. More targets escape destruction. T2 Ammo damage reduction (by some 20%+): all T2 ammo, long range and short ranged reduced in peak DPS and volley DPS. More targets escape destruction. Warp to zero: targets either become invulnerable, warping straight from gate to station and back, or are only able to be attacked as they're jumping away from a gate, not into it. Excludes 0.0 bubble camps. More targets escape destruction. Rigs are introduced: peak tank DPS and static HP skyrocket, peak speeds go insane, peak DPS remain static. More targets escape destruction. The upcoming web nerf: few ships will be able to fit more than one web, or both web and 9km scram at the same time. Targets will MWD, AB or simply float back to gates and jump out, escaping destruction. More targets escape. Ok, so remember when I said I wouldn't give my own opinon about all of this earlier? Well, I lied. I can't let the masses come to their own conclusion. Everyone is too stupid to arrive at the correct answer. Fortunately you have me here to do your thinking for you. \o/ Eve is moving further and further away from nonconsentual combat. Offensive ship capabilities continue to get compromised while defense is improved over and over again. Webs are key to holding a target away from it's avenue of escape long enough to kill it. Now this will be defunct as well. 0.0 guys will have less of a problem with this than lowsec and empire war players, but it will still be somewhat of an issue. One of the main reasons that high sec ganking has become so popular is that it's the only way for attackers to access the ISK rich targets that never ever stray into their combat environment for any reason. They're not even able to be war decced the majority of the time due to NPC corps. Am I saying that the game is doomed and coming to an end? Of course not. But I am saying that if you're a PVPer and you like killing other players for fun or profit, you're going to be liking the results less and less. Just wait till this time next year and you're able to recount all the stories about the one's that got away instead of the ones you killed. CCP continues to reinforce the safety of those who wish to avoid PVP at all costs while doing it at the expense of the rest of the PVP crowd, regardless of what venue they PVP in, whether it be 0.0, low sec or empire. How do the speed nerf fit into you holy scripts? Seriously, speed has been the number one reason fights dont happen since rigs were introduced. Tanks just delay the inevitable... I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me

Commander Praji Templars of Space	Posted - 2008.08.12 11:51:00 - [201] The blob warfare they are working at. Devs posted about it. They introduced bombs. Nice addition, but to expensive to use. The rest...it's all to make killing a target more fun. Is it fun to have to fit extra sensorbooster to make sure you get a shot at a target? A fleet engagement should take long. It give time for tactics for deployment en retreat. It makes the fun last longer. Even one on one or small group engagements are fu like this. It takes a while...it gives you time think and repond to changing factors... I don't mind shooting at a target for a while..slowly seeing it go down..or even gives me a chance to see if i can get out of the situation....or that i am just doomed. It's awesome to warp in..start shooting seeing the target go down. FC busy checking the field for other high prio targets. PVP the way it should be. Just a long period of smiling and having fun. and the speed nerf..yeah..good. Seeing a bs outrun cruiser or frig hulls...not really good. Going so fast you can't be countered..not good...there should always be a risk in pvp. my 2 cents.
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.12 12:06:00 - [202] Originally by: Bellum Eternus So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill I've read you're post. But really I donÆt recognize you any competence to talk about PVP and how game mechanics will affect PVP when you ended in empire looking for afk untanked haulers to kill. ________________ God is my Wingman
Lucy'Lastic	Posted - 2008.08.12 12:06:00 - [203] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Suicide gank nerf was done to prevent 'ganking for lulz' because people abused the insurance system. It was NOT done to protect afk haulers, billion isk CNRs, freighters piloted by out of corp alts in NPC corps and BPO hauling shuttles. That's pretty funny, because that's exactly what it does. You're right, it does make them safer but not by as much as you think and no, it's not funny at all because the unfortunate side effect of having to stop 'ganking for lulz' is that other players who don't/didn't abuse the insurance system and 'gank for lulz' have had to have their freedoms restricted. I already said we can still suicide gank with CCPs approval. Nobody in hisec is flying indestructable ships. Anybody can be got at at anytime and anyplace. It just costs more to do it. Imagine you are in charge of CCP and you want to allow suicide ganking but cut down on 'ganking for lulz'. What would be your idea? Bear in mind it's not what you would do based on your opinion it's based on CCPs. You can't just say 'leave it as it is/was'. Can you come up with a ruling or planned change that is 100% workable and not exploitable?
Ichandasil Minmatar Comply Or Die	Posted - 2008.08.12 12:20:00 - [204] Originally by: mishkof Edited by: mishkof on 12/08/2008 11:50:38 Originally by: Bellum Eternus So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill when I started thinking about the upcoming patch, how it's going to affect PVP in general, and how all the previous patches have affected PVP. I'm not going to state my opinion about where I think it's headed however. I just want to put some facts out there and their contributions to PVP in general: (sort of in order by date, oldest first) Hitpoint buff, then HP buff again: increased the time required to kill a target. More targets escape destruction. T2 Ammo damage reduction (by some 20%+): all T2 ammo, long range and short ranged reduced in peak DPS and volley DPS. More targets escape destruction. Warp to zero: targets either become invulnerable, warping straight from gate to station and back, or are only able to be attacked as they're jumping away from a gate, not into it. Excludes 0.0 bubble camps. More targets escape destruction. Rigs are introduced: peak tank DPS and static HP skyrocket, peak speeds go insane, peak DPS remain static. More targets escape destruction. The upcoming web nerf: few ships will be able to fit more than one web, or both web and 9km scram at the same time. Targets will MWD, AB or simply float back to gates and jump out, escaping destruction. More targets escape. Ok, so remember when I said I wouldn't give my own opinon about all of this earlier? Well, I lied. I can't let the masses come to their own conclusion. Everyone is too stupid to arrive at the correct answer. Fortunately you have me here to do your thinking for you. \o/ Eve is moving further and further away from nonconsentual combat. Offensive ship capabilities continue to get compromised while defense is improved over and over again. Webs are key to holding a target away from it's avenue of escape long enough to kill it. Now this will be defunct as well. 0.0 guys will have less of a problem with this than lowsec and empire war players, but it will still be somewhat of an issue. One of the main reasons that high sec ganking has become so popular is that it's the only way for attackers to access the ISK rich targets that never ever stray into their combat environment for any reason. They're not even able to be war decced the majority of the time due to NPC corps. Am I saying that the game is doomed and coming to an end? Of course not. But I am saying that if you're a PVPer and you like killing other players for fun or profit, you're going to be liking the results less and less. Just wait till this time next year and you're able to recount all the stories about the one's that got away instead of the ones you killed. CCP continues to reinforce the safety of those who wish to avoid PVP at all costs while doing it at the expense of the rest of the PVP crowd, regardless of what venue they PVP in, whether it be 0.0, low sec or empire. How doas the speed nerf fit into your holy scriptures? Seriously, speed has been the number one reason fights dont happen since rigs were introduced. Tanks just delay the inevitable... This. You have to be some kind of a special tool to start a post about how it's becoming too easy to get away when the Dev's are getting ready to nerf the hell out of the ability to get away.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.12 13:37:00 - [205] Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Imagine you are in charge of CCP and you want to allow suicide ganking but cut down on 'ganking for lulz'. What would be your idea? Bear in mind it's not what you would do based on your opinion it's based on CCPs. You can't just say 'leave it as it is/was'. Can you come up with a ruling or planned change that is 100% workable and not exploitable? That's a pretty strange question to ask someone who's against changing the way it worked. You might as well ask a cow how he wants to be slaughtered if electrocuting the brain isn't good enough for him. Still, I'll attempt to answer: 1. Tradeable killrights. This should have been the first step. This would allow the one who got ganked the opportunity to sell his killrights to someone who would actually use them. This way you bring more consequences to suicide ganking, and you give the merc profession a needed boost. 2a. Make high sec less safe. This way you increase the amount of combat in Eve, thus increasing demand, while at the same time lessening the supply. This brings the market prices up, meaning suicide gankers would take a larger hit each time they gank someone. The market is completely out of hand right now, partly because of massive amounts of minerals coming in from the drone regions, and partly because people in high sec are free to generate resources practically risk free. Their only risk is suicide ganking. 2b. Reduce wealth in high sec. This way you bring people out into unsafe space, removing the need for suicide ganking completely. 3. Boost low sec combined with a high sec nerf. Pirates migrate back into low sec, following their prey who seek greener pastures on the frontier. Eve becomes what it used to be, and everyone (except the WoW kiddies) are happy.
Malcanis We are Legend eXceed.	Posted - 2008.08.12 13:41:00 - [206] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Imagine you are in charge of CCP and you want to allow suicide ganking but cut down on 'ganking for lulz'. What would be your idea? Bear in mind it's not what you would do based on your opinion it's based on CCPs. You can't just say 'leave it as it is/was'. Can you come up with a ruling or planned change that is 100% workable and not exploitable? That's a pretty strange question to ask someone who's against changing the way it worked. You might as well ask a cow how he wants to be slaughtered if electrocuting the brain isn't good enough for him. Still, I'll attempt to answer: 1. Tradeable killrights. This should have been the first step. This would allow the one who got ganked the opportunity to sell his killrights to someone who would actually use them. This way you bring more consequences to suicide ganking, and you give the merc profession a needed boost. 2a. Make high sec less safe. This way you increase the amount of combat in Eve, thus increasing demand, while at the same time lessening the supply. This brings the market prices up, meaning suicide gankers would take a larger hit each time they gank someone. The market is completely out of hand right now, partly because of massive amounts of minerals coming in from the drone regions, and partly because people in high sec are free to generate resources practically risk free. Their only risk is suicide ganking. 2b. Reduce wealth in high sec. This way you bring people out into unsafe space, removing the need for suicide ganking completely. 3. Boost low sec combined with a high sec nerf. Pirates migrate back into low sec, following their prey who seek greener pastures on the frontier. Eve becomes what it used to be, and everyone (except the WoW kiddies) are happy. 4. Change CONCORD so that invoking them isn't an automatic death sentence, just really really dangerous. If it were just about possible to evade them with really good ships with good tactics and planning (eg: flee to lo-sec) then hi-sec gankers would risk using really good ships, and ganks would be carefully planned heists, not random muggings. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.12 13:52:00 - [207] Originally by: Furb Killer tl;dr version: Suicide ganker whines he hasnt total risk free profit. Did it ever occur to you that a 1 minute long fight is more fun for both the loser and the winner than a 7 second fight where the winner alpha strikes the loser? Which brings us to point 2, the only pvp you know is ganking unarmed haulers without any risk someone shoots you, that doesnt make it the only form of pvp in eve... /this. Totally. Combat should be combat. Blowing up targets that never had a chance isn't combat. Whether that's popping newbs with an assault ship or blowing apart unarmed haulers in high sec it's still not combat and it's not 'PvP'. Because that implies that there are two players engaged. It's PvV as in "Player vs. Victim". There are plenty of fights to be had in low sec and no sec. Oh, wait, those folks shoot back... May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.12 13:57:00 - [208] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette He's not talking about blob warfare where you just obey the FC, lock and press F1-F8. He's talking about small gang and solo pvp where every decision you make will make or break you. A PvP encounter doesn't begin when one ship points another. It begins when contact is first made, be it via scout, scanner, local or some other means. PvP takes skill in ship setup (most successful PvPers don't rely on forums setups, because they mostly suck), finding the fight, catching the prey (prey in this case does not mean 'unarmed') and disposing of the prey while keeping your ship. Skill is the difference between success and failure in any one of those segments. I disagree. I've been in small gangs, and yes it requires some thought but a large proportion of people still fit ships the way everyone else does (or in a surprisingly awful fashion) - a quick glance through a killboard shows that there is often very little variety except of the really bad kind. I'm not trying to say that combat PvP requires no thought - I'm trying to say that I don't think it currently rewards thought as well as it could. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Playing the market takes a lot of skill too. Mission running and mining, however, does not. Neither does POS management or hauling, but I don't see anyone complaining about those - or indeed people complaining about mining, other than it's dull. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette You still have the same potential chance of killing anyone as they have killing you. It's your choice not to train the skills required to do the job. From the get go, we all get a noobship and 15k isk. We all have the same potential. A nonsense argument - a person's skills are irrelevant if they're not currently doing that task. A person in a mining barge can have all gunnery to level 5 and it won't matter. My point is and remains that whilstever EVE isn't all about combat, the industrial side that cannot defend itself will seek alternatives to combat given the choice. You cannot argue that a person out in a barge has the same potential to kill someone, unless they go and get a different ship, in which case they've failed to achieve the original goal, that of mining. Our ships and modules have to come from somewhere after all. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette All but the "stay in high sec" part are viable options. Stay in high sec should NOT be an option for anyone wanting to make good cash. The reasons for that has been explained again and again in this and other threads. High sec could be completely safe for all I care, but then it should give NO rewards. If it is to have a little risk - like it does now - then it should have little reward. It's the basic concept the game is built on. The reasons have been explained by those with an inherent bias; they therefore have no foundation on which to be believed. Equally I could say that I think the notion is tosh and that everyone I know, including me, makes far more in 0.0 than they do in high-sec, (and I do mission) and you'd just say I'm wrong or lying. The only way to know for sure is proper economic analysis in the next economic report. I'm sure however too many are too sure of their own opinion to actually concede anything to facts. Saying something over and over and over doesn't make it right. This sets aside that we should be caring more about fun PvP than who has the biggest wallet, because that's just more e-peen stroking in a different form. If I really desperately needed ISK I could just buy a GTC, so this notion that somehow the game must be balanced on ISK terms is pretty silly. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.12 14:13:00 - [209] Originally by: DeadDuck Originally by: Bellum Eternus So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill I've read you're post. But really I donÆt recognize you any competence to talk about PVP and how game mechanics will affect PVP when you ended in empire looking for afk untanked haulers to kill. It's almost as if CCP won't allow you to PVP like a 'normal' person (whatever that is) if you also kill stuff in high sec. Who knew you could do both? It's such a crazy concept! PVPing and being able to hunt haulers in high sec! Amazing! [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.12 14:25:00 - [210] Maybe he shouldnt have started his post then with something that is totally unrelated to the rest of the post...

Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:29:00 - [211] Astria. Makes. Sense. As for the rest, lemme break it down: CCP decides it wants fights to last longer, CCP decides no-one should be invulnerable or near invulnerable long ago. HP boost, Wt0, buncha other changes LowSec was meh but sorta functional Population boom, much more crowded Prats overfed and ran most everyone out, buncha other changes Drone regions implemented, thus nerfing LowSec minerals Even the most stubborn LowSec miners left too Prats fed on each other for a while Wads of Prats decided to go Empire and Suicide, Rookie Corp Wardec, Flip, n00b bait, and generally annoy. "Adapt or Die n00b" is their mantra. CCP gets angry/emo cancellations from n00bs/rookies/trials right and left (I imagine). Enter static 0.0 warfare with Cyno Jammers and FW blobs in some Lowsec (oh noes) Enter (proposed) Speed adjustment, proposed WarDec adjustment, proposed Suicide gank Insurance adjustment Begin angry/emo gankbear whines about how hard life is now in Empire for them. They are truly offended that CCP dare use the word "grief" for any reason. Begin angry/emo speed tank whines about how they somehow are the shining light of anti-blobdom and small gang saviors. Much lulz from the Shield and Armor tanker crowd. "Adapt or Die n00b" is their mantra. OMG THE SKY IS FALLING, HELLO KITTY EVE-ONLINE! "Nerf Epire!" from the usuals suspects. Future...? Dunno, but it's bound to be even more amusing.
Lucy'Lastic	Posted - 2008.08.12 18:05:00 - [212] Edited by: Lucy''Lastic on 12/08/2008 18:07:25 Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Imagine you are in charge of CCP and you want to allow suicide ganking but cut down on 'ganking for lulz'. What would be your idea? Bear in mind it's not what you would do based on your opinion it's based on CCPs. You can't just say 'leave it as it is/was'. Can you come up with a ruling or planned change that is 100% workable and not exploitable? That's a pretty strange question to ask someone who's against changing the way it worked. You might as well ask a cow how he wants to be slaughtered if electrocuting the brain isn't good enough for him. Still, I'll attempt to answer: 1. Tradeable killrights. This should have been the first step. This would allow the one who got ganked the opportunity to sell his killrights to someone who would actually use them. This way you bring more consequences to suicide ganking, and you give the merc profession a needed boost. CCP are looking into tradeable kill rights. I support tradeable kill rights and I would like to see bounty hunting become a proffesion. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette 2a. Make high sec less safe. This way you increase the amount of combat in Eve. Making hisec less safe will not increase 'combat'. The only way you get 'combat' in hisec is with War decs. Suicide ganking someone is not 'combat'. Throwing a football at someone does not mean they are 'playing soccer.' Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette thus increasing demand, while at the same time lessening the supply. This brings the market prices up, meaning suicide gankers would take a larger hit each time they gank someone. I thought you were AGAINST any nerf to suicide ganking. That affects ALL suicide gankers not just the 'ganking for lulz' brigade. I can see why you being in a corp called 'White Lion Manufacture and Salvage' would be concerned about the market. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette 2b. Reduce wealth in high sec. This way you bring people out into unsafe space, removing the need for suicide ganking completely. I just asked you how you would stop 'suicide ganking for lulz in hisec' and the abuse of the insurance system and your idea is to move everyone into losec. You just won the most ridiculous statement of the year award. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette 3. Boost low sec combined with a high sec nerf. Pirates migrate back into low sec, following their prey who seek greener pastures on the frontier. Eve becomes what it used to be, and everyone (except the WoW kiddies) are happy. That does absolutely nothing to stop 'ganking for lulz' in hisec and abusing the insurance system. In fact, the only decent thing you could come up with was tradeable kill rights which CCP are already looking into.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.12 19:27:00 - [213] Originally by: Malcanis 4. Change CONCORD so that invoking them isn't an automatic death sentence, just really really dangerous. If it were just about possible to evade them with really good ships with good tactics and planning (eg: flee to lo-sec) then hi-sec gankers would risk using really good ships, and ganks would be carefully planned heists, not random muggings. I rarely agree with Malcanis but this idea I support enthusiastically and wholeheartedly. Make Concord a proper NPC force not some bizarre Dues Ex Machina winding down on all too obvious creaky ropes and pulleys. Allow folks in good ships to escape them (if they can) by running or hiding. Allow hacking and identity changes, calling the cops when they aren't responding quickly enough and so on. Make high sec pirate attacks just that. Not just mindless 'suicide ganks' but something that requires planning, attention and real skill. The higher the sec the harder it would be to do. So yeah - this in a big way. It would fix a lot of the issues with High Sec and Low Sec if Concord was a more believable force. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.08.12 20:20:00 - [214] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 12/08/2008 20:20:48 Originally by: Bellum Eternus So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill Originally by: Bellum Eternus CCP continues to reinforce the safety of those who wish to avoid PVP at all costs while doing it at the expense of the rest of the PVP crowd I noticed these two points in your post. Dont you think its obvious that a untanked hauler to - as you say in your second quote: Wish to avoid PvP at all cost? Is it not natural that those who are unarmed have other features that compensate for their lack of armour and arms equipment? Sometimes - honestly - I have to say its the "PvP"er thats the carebear! They starts to whine because a UNTANKED HAULER!!! Wants to avoid Straight forward PVP!!! Get real guys! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.08.12 21:04:00 - [215] ITT: we discover why pvp is nothing but F1-F8, lag, and blobs.
Harris AFK	Posted - 2008.08.12 23:00:00 - [216] Originally by: Esmenet Perhaps you missed the part about blobbing. Dps from one ship has just been replaced by more ships. Heck even bumping is nerfed in the next patch to encourage more docking games. It was much better when there werenÆt so many players simply because it was a reasonable assumption that flying around in a small gang didnÆt always mean you got blobbed to death. I didnÆt miss the point about blobbing. I just think its cause and effect from the other angle. I think that trying to make fights last longer came as a counter point to blobbing...the stated aim of CCP et al. You (it seems) believe that blobbing is a consequence of it being harder to die û I think it is always going to happen anyway. Its human nature. I cannot escape the feeling that blobbing is a natural recourse of people and will happen to a greater degree, the more popular the game gets. Same situation viewed from different sides of the fence. Originally by: Esmenet Considering the 30 sec invulnerability at start the ships would have to be pretty evenly matched or in favour of the "defender" for him to attack in the first place. If the tables are then turned from misjudging the other ship, itÆs not exactly going to be insta-popped unless you bring in a blob of other ships. Not being insta-popped in those circumstances is a good thing. It gives a fighting chance to the player and that makes for better quality of PvP. YouÆre more likely to go into a fight if you think you have a vague-way-out-there-chance of survival...who wouldnÆt? Originally by: Esmenet Actually vaporising is incredibly important in the current pvp, its just done by multiple ships. I didnÆt say vaporising your opponent wasnÆt important, I said it wasnÆt exactly quality PvP in the ideal world. ItÆs war by attrition, not by skill. Does that mean the current state of PvP is inadequate? Yes, IÆd say that for the larger part (fleet fights/Sov warfare) it is. Does that mean that making ships harder to kill is at fault? I donÆt believe it is for the reasons I said above. Originally by: Esmenet No the defensive rigs have much better bonuses and much less severe penalties compared to most of the weapon rigs. A ship with weapon rigs will underperform compared to the same ship with typically a tanking or cap rig. You can allow some exceptions of course for instance on PVE ships where tanking more than a certain level is worthless. Hmm, starting to agree with you a little (shhh). You kinda make sense there. I donÆt tend to use defensive rigs myself but I will admit that most do. I do think though that it is fear of death that motivates choice as much as anything. Brings us back to le-blob but thatÆs a dead horse. Originally by: Esmenet Yes blobs exist but thats not an excuse for encouraging more blobbing. I say again, I think blobbing will happen anyway and they are not trying to encourage it. They are trying to address the consequences (speed tanking to extremes/insta-death for some, etc) of it. Still looking at it from the opposite side of the fence. I agree theyÆre trying to paper over the cracks rather than solidify the foundations but it still misses the point that their intentions are not to make this carebear online or whatever. It is to get PvP to mean something other than blobbing. I think that may be flogging a dead horse in itself. Originally by: Esmenet 0.0 is very different from what it was in the "glory days". Absolutely no arguments from me there whatsoever.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.13 11:25:00 - [217] Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette 2a. Make high sec less safe. This way you increase the amount of combat in Eve. Making hisec less safe will not increase 'combat'. The only way you get 'combat' in hisec is with War decs. Suicide ganking someone is not 'combat'. Throwing a football at someone does not mean they are 'playing soccer.' It is combat. If you fire on someone, it is a form of combat. Also, you may have noted that making high sec less safe would entail an actual change in the current system, shich means suicide ganking and war decs would either not be the only ways of combat, or that they would be rather different than today. Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette thus increasing demand, while at the same time lessening the supply. This brings the market prices up, meaning suicide gankers would take a larger hit each time they gank someone. I thought you were AGAINST any nerf to suicide ganking. That affects ALL suicide gankers not just the 'ganking for lulz' brigade. It affects everyone equally, which is sort of the point. It brings down "ganking for lulz" as it automatically raises the bar for a gank. Sort of like the removal of insurance, but fair. Originally by: Lucy'Lastic I can see why you being in a corp called 'White Lion Manufacture and Salvage' would be concerned about the market. I can see why you seemingly being in a noob corp would be concerned about remaining immune to people who want to shoot you. Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette 2b. Reduce wealth in high sec. This way you bring people out into unsafe space, removing the need for suicide ganking completely. I just asked you how you would stop 'suicide ganking for lulz in hisec' and the abuse of the insurance system and your idea is to move everyone into losec. You just won the most ridiculous statement of the year award. Not at all. This change would have the effect of balancing the rediculous rewards of high sec and making low sec more viable. Those are two of the reasons there are suicide ganking in the first place, and they would definately counter "ganking for lulz". Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette 3. Boost low sec combined with a high sec nerf. Pirates migrate back into low sec, following their prey who seek greener pastures on the frontier. Eve becomes what it used to be, and everyone (except the WoW kiddies) are happy. That does absolutely nothing to stop 'ganking for lulz' in hisec and abusing the insurance system. As explained above, it would absolutely reduce "ganking for lulz" in high sec. The insurance system is being abused by so many people that the only way to stop the abuse is to remove insurance. Insurance for self destruct anyone? Originally by: Lucy'Lastic In fact, the only decent thing you could come up with was tradeable kill rights which CCP are already looking into. Aren't you glad you asked me a stupid question so you could have a stupid answer to nit pick about? Idiot...
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.13 12:04:00 - [218] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 12/08/2008 20:20:48 Originally by: Bellum Eternus So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill Originally by: Bellum Eternus CCP continues to reinforce the safety of those who wish to avoid PVP at all costs while doing it at the expense of the rest of the PVP crowd I noticed these two points in your post. Dont you think its obvious that a untanked hauler to - as you say in your second quote: Wish to avoid PvP at all cost? Is it not natural that those who are unarmed have other features that compensate for their lack of armour and arms equipment? Sometimes - honestly - I have to say its the "PvP"er thats the carebear! They starts to whine because a UNTANKED HAULER!!! Wants to avoid Straight forward PVP!!! Get real guys! As I re-read the thread, posts like yours kept coming up. Are you people (the ones who keep making posts like the above) really that dense? You guys don't detect just the slightest hint of sarcasm? The first sentence SCREAMS sarcasm. It's completely obvious, yet everyone seems to grab onto that first sentence and then base all of their arguments around that little picture painted in their little brains. It's ridiculous. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.13 12:08:00 - [219] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 13/08/2008 12:08:26 Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette 1. Tradeable killrights. This should have been the first step. This would allow the one who got ganked the opportunity to sell his killrights to someone who would actually use them. This way you bring more consequences to suicide ganking, and you give the merc profession a needed boost. Absolutely. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette 2a. Make high sec less safe. This way you increase the amount of combat in Eve, thus increasing demand, while at the same time lessening the supply. This brings the market prices up, meaning suicide gankers would take a larger hit each time they gank someone. The market is completely out of hand right now, partly because of massive amounts of minerals coming in from the drone regions, and partly because people in high sec are free to generate resources practically risk free. Their only risk is suicide ganking. It ceases then to be high-sec, and in which case we might as well go the whole way and make it low-sec or just make everything 0.0. I have proposed this before now, mainly to see what result it would get. Oddly enough it didn't go down well, and those that complained were not empire dwellers. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette 2b. Reduce wealth in high sec. This way you bring people out into unsafe space, removing the need for suicide ganking completely. Unworkable unless you fix low-sec to not be an all-or-nothing venture. For the hauler or miner, low-sec isn't risky, it's lethal. How is the wealth going to be generated if everyone is getting ganked at gatecamps? Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette 3. Boost low sec combined with a high sec nerf. Pirates migrate back into low sec, following their prey who seek greener pastures on the frontier. You clearly missed all the 'boost low-sec' threads over the last year and more - the problem isn't that low-sec offers poor rewards, the problem is that low-sec is a total shift in the way to do business in EVE and one that completely favours the pirate unless you are yourself in a large corporation or alliance. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Eve becomes what it used to be, and everyone (except the WoW kiddies) are happy. There were just fewer people about and less toys to play with. Even those that were there 'back in the day' can't agree, as I've seen people saying yes it's all changed, and others saying it hasn't. That you have the temerity to allege that everyone who even disagrees with you is a WoW kiddie does not help your point, it makes you look childish and immature. Don't give me a hard time about ad hominem attacks and then do one yourself. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.13 12:34:00 - [220] Edited by: Esmenet on 13/08/2008 12:36:25 Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Unworkable unless you fix low-sec to not be an all-or-nothing venture. For the hauler or miner, low-sec isn't risky, it's lethal. How is the wealth going to be generated if everyone is getting ganked at gatecamps? Thats not true. All it takes is more effort to stay safe. It provides a reason to actually join a player corp, something that high sec dont. It is infact very easy to stay safe in low sec, it just takes a bit of time and effort. You dont even have to fire your guns, and it is not related to any sum of skillpoints. And the more people you get to go to low sec the easier it gets. The problem is that with that time and effort the rewards of low sec becomes much less than what you get in high sec. A clear indication that high sec rewards are way too high. If anything needs to be changed its a massive nerf to high sec rewards followed by a rework of bounty hunting and anti-pirate mechanics. So that the people hunting pirates are not considered pirates themselves. Vote against the nano nerf!

Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.13 13:08:00 - [221] Edited by: Maximillian Bayonette on 13/08/2008 13:09:09 Originally by: Astria Tiphareth It ceases then to be high-sec, and in which case we might as well go the whole way and make it low-sec or just make everything 0.0. I have proposed this before now, mainly to see what result it would get. Oddly enough it didn't go down well, and those that complained were not empire dwellers. Yeah right, I'm sure Michael Mission Farmer and Terry AFK Trader would be more than happy to make high sec 0.0. I would love to see everywhere being low sec or 0.0. It would make the game less attractive to the 'casual' players, but it would make it a truly unique and exciting experience. Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Unworkable unless you fix low-sec to not be an all-or-nothing venture. For the hauler or miner, low-sec isn't risky, it's lethal. How is the wealth going to be generated if everyone is getting ganked at gatecamps? No, it's unworkable as long as people have the misconceptions about low sec that you just demonstrated. Low sec is NOT an all-or-nothing venture. There are so many completely empty low sec system it's almost saddening. Gate camps are rare nowadays, because everyone is afraid of hotdrops. If you move around in low sec and know what you are doing, you will never get killed unless you where looking for a fight. Originally by: Astria Tiphareth You clearly missed all the 'boost low-sec' threads over the last year and more - the problem isn't that low-sec offers poor rewards, the problem is that low-sec is a total shift in the way to do business in EVE and one that completely favours the pirate unless you are yourself in a large corporation or alliance. You are aware of the fact that the only mechanic that differentiates low sec from high sec is CONCORD, right? Well, carriers and POSes too, but that's not what we're discussing here. Originally by: Astria Tiphareth There were just fewer people about and less toys to play with. Even those that were there 'back in the day' can't agree, as I've seen people saying yes it's all changed, and others saying it hasn't. That you have the temerity to allege that everyone who even disagrees with you is a WoW kiddie does not help your point, it makes you look childish and immature. Don't give me a hard time about ad hominem attacks and then do one yourself. WoW-kiddies are the people coming to EvE and trying to play it like WoW. They are the ones CCP have been catering to these last patches, and they are the ones you call 'casual' players. It has nothing to do with them agreeing with me or not. It's a play style and a state of mind.
Lucy'Lastic	Posted - 2008.08.13 13:12:00 - [222] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette I can see why you seemingly being in a noob corp would be concerned about remaining immune to people who want to shoot you. You need to use your brain a bit. I'm not immune and I never will to be. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette This change would have the effect of balancing the rediculous rewards of high sec and making low sec more viable. Those are two of the reasons there are suicide ganking in the first place, and they would definately counter "ganking for lulz". What are you smoking? Let me explain it to you-CCP want suicide ganking for profit. We can still do it. You seem to be under the misconception that CCP want ALL suicide ganking removed. Suicide ganking for lulz in hisec and abusing the insurance system is NOT the same thing as suicide ganking for profit is it? Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Aren't you glad you asked me a stupid question so you could have a stupid answer to nit pick about? Idiot... I'm glad that you failed to come up with a single workable, non exploitable idea and had to reduce to calling me names instead. What's your idea for reducing 0.0 blobs? Change the sec rating from 0.0 to 0.1?
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.13 13:19:00 - [223] Originally by: Lucy'Lastic You need to use your brain a bit. I'm not immune and I never will to be. I came up with 4 solutions that would have been better for the game than what CCP came up with. I did so despite the fact that I don't feel anything needs to be changed. That's using your brain. Using your own brain you would also have seen that what you quoted was a "back atcha" retort to your stupid quip about my corp name. Originally by: Lucy'Lastic What are you smoking? Let me explain it to you-CCP want suicide ganking for profit. We can still do it. You seem to be under the misconception that CCP want ALL suicide ganking removed. Suicide ganking for lulz in hisec and abusing the insurance system is NOT the same thing as suicide ganking for profit is it? What are you responding to? I was explaining why my idea would reduce "ganking for lulz". You reply by saying "NO CCP WANTS GANKING FOR LULZ REMOVED"!!!!ONE1". Do you see why your reply is a bit silly? Stupid even? Originally by: Lucy'Lastic I'm glad that you failed to come up with a single workable, non exploitable idea and had to reduce to calling me names instead. I came up with four, and then called you an idiot because you tried to nit pick at the ideas and failed. Originally by: Lucy'Lastic What's your idea for reducing 0.0 blobs? Change the sec rating from 0.0 to 0.1? CCP are going to have to start paying me if they want me to solve all their problems.
Lucy'Lastic	Posted - 2008.08.13 13:38:00 - [224] Edited by: Lucy''Lastic on 13/08/2008 13:37:57 Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette CCP are going to have to start paying me if they want me to solve all their problems. I've seen lots of your biased, twisted, self serving and intolerant ideas to fix Eves problems and I don't think there's any danger of you being paid for your ideas. Ever.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.13 13:41:00 - [225] Originally by: Lucy'Lastic I've seen lots of your biased, twisted, self serving and intolerant ideas to fix Eves problems and I don't think there's any danger of you being paid for your ideas. Ever. The reason you see my ideas as biased, twisted, self serving and intolerant is because you are a little biased, twisted and self serving carebear who can't tolerate or accept that he's playing the wrong game. My ideas are in line with stated CCP vision from the years past, and would work to make the game better for everyone except risk adverse cowards such as yourself.
Gracious NightAngel	Posted - 2008.08.13 13:51:00 - [226] Going out on limb here because people are just clueless. EVE is wonderfull game allowing you to PVP and be a carebear. Its the only game at the moment that allows handfull of people to PVP. I understand the ***** about blobb warfare or huge fleets period (Lag fest) TBH Its always going to be a issues.. get over it soon If you visit forums at Age of Conan site:forum. A game that people were promised PVP is basically a game for Carebears. I give CCP great credit keeping everyone on one server. I don't think this is a easy task. So whatever your game play is on EVE lets just thank CCP for having the community it has Thank You.
Glach Duwat	Posted - 2008.08.13 14:27:00 - [227] Edited by: Glach Duwat on 13/08/2008 14:30:59 I only read the first few pages, but here's my take. It's ideology that's the point here. The issue is valid that PvP outside of 0.0 is getting hard to come by. But as I've stated, it's what you perceive eve as that determines opinions on nerfs. Personally, I Like to think that eve should be a harsh universe, with big risk for big reward. I think that you SHOULD have to put yourself at risk to make isk. I think you SHOULD have to work together with others to make the big bucks. Does this mean bringing a long an armed escort if you're transporting goods to trade hubs? maybe. I think that, like PvP is, eve should not be so easy to play solo. Right now you can grind missions, or mine, or trade in high sec and make absurd profits with no risk to you, and you can do it alone, in a newb corp. I think eve should be a place where no matter what you're doing, you make very little alone, and a shit ton with other players. This would cut down on isk farmers, and promote social gameplay. I mean, what if level 2 missions were too hard to tank for one player? Then you need a buddy. you'd have to boost rewards to make it feasible for profits, but that's ok. What if you want to haul minerals and modules to Jita, but you have to go through a rift of low sec that is perma camped by pirates? You'll need a corp to guard you on the way. This would raise costs across eve, so you could pay your corp mates for escort. What if Low sec was, gasp, MORE PROFITABLE THAN HIGHSEC?! I mean, right now, in theory, it is for mining and missioning, but the profit differences are so that it's not economical, the risk outweighs the reward. This is what eve should be about. Forcing players to play in groups to succeed would improve all facets of eve. But even more so, if you want low sec to be better, make it so if you want to move between regions, you'll have to go through low sec. If you want to go between rens and amarr prime, or Stacmon to Jita, you'll have to pass through low sec. ideally, each region would have a capital system, Sec status .8 It would then lessen in sec status the further out of the capital. If it was 1 jump out, it goes down to .7, two jumps, .6, three jumps, .5, then .4, and so on. Faction capitals would start at 1.0. Between regions there would be rifts of low sec, even if it's only one or two systems. This would mean there is a place for piracy, a place for PvP, a Place for anti-piracy, and still facilitate Peaceful game-play. Manufacturing would be good to do if you don't want to risk yourself, because you could buy minerals in-region, and sell in region. Could you make money by never leaving high sec? For sure, but you still need to go in groups, as NPC pirates will be tougher. Additionally, I support the idea of a cap on time limits in NPC corps. It facilitates Isk farming too much. I mean, infinite cash flow with little risk?
DeathStar Beelzebub Servants Mean Coalition	Posted - 2008.08.13 20:17:00 - [228] Not been to this part of forums in a very long time, and only read 1st page and couple of comments on last page.... so plz forgive if this dont make much sence. Alot of ppl seem not to happy with the changes CCP make to the game, and post thier veiws on how to "fix" the problem, iv spat my dummy out a few times over the years at changes that made me change my game play style Thing is, if CCP "fix'd" the prob's we say are there, then EvE would never need to change, thus 1 day would be the same as the next... There are to many differant types of ppl playing who all have thier own differant needs, it would be virtualy impossable to make every one happy, but through changes there will be a time that "a person" will have the game he likes -till the nerf bat- Dont fix it if it aint broken..... PvP is there, but you have to look for it and not wait for it to come to you.
FlameGlow Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.13 21:03:00 - [229] Originally by: Glach Duwat What if Low sec was, gasp, MORE PROFITABLE THAN HIGHSEC?! I mean, right now, in theory, it is for mining and missioning, but the profit differences are so that it's not economical, the risk outweighs the reward. Risk vs Reward used to assign mission rewards, belt ores & exploration stuffs didn't take into account risk created by players. It is because of players lowsec is dangerous, maybe second only to some 0.0 NPC areas. Lowsec is mostly empty because pirates made it so, now you can see the same pirates cry it's empty. Boosting those rewards of lowsec to 0.0 level would be adequate, and won't make it better then 0.0 as it's impossible to claim sov and get its benefits and harder to protect due to rules limitations. Maybe that would draw a more significant portion of population to low. _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.08.13 21:13:00 - [230] Originally by: Vladimir Griftin All the hitpoint buffs and damage nerfs did was make fights last longer. Thats a GOOD thing, longer fights = more room for tactical gameplay. Your looking at the web nerf the wrong way, the nano nerf is actually designed to get you MORE fights. It stops people running away at ludicrous uncatchable speeds. ****ing lol, because now jumping in with a battleship/battlecruiser gang and not being able to gtfo after a hotdrop/blob shows up is going to make people want to go out and pvp so much more.

Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.08.13 21:41:00 - [231] Where is it headed? It's headed back to a balanced environment and I'm excited about it! I'm excited to finally see if pvpers can actually fight against other pvpers instead of fighting carebears all the time. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Lucy'Lastic	Posted - 2008.08.13 23:07:00 - [232] Edited by: Lucy''Lastic on 13/08/2008 23:10:52 Edited by: Lucy''Lastic on 13/08/2008 23:09:37 Originally by: Lucy'Lastic I've seen lots of your biased, twisted, self serving and intolerant ideas to fix Eves problems and I don't think there's any danger of you being paid for your ideas. Ever. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette The reason you see my ideas as biased, twisted, self serving and intolerant is because you are a little biased, twisted and self serving carebear who can't tolerate or accept that he's playing the wrong game. Thanks for assuming I'm a carebear because I don't agree with you. Try using Eve search and reading some of my previous posts. If I'd known that you were KI ANS ALT I would never have bothered trying to have a discussion with you. Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette My ideas are in line with stated CCP vision from the years past, and would work to make the game better for everyone except risk adverse cowards such as yourself. Your ideas are most definitely NOT in line with CCPs vision of what this game should be. Here remember this: Originally by: Ki An About the part where you claim the devs are looking to reign in the 'griefers', where have they stated as much? I can't find it anywhere, but you must have a nice link for me, right? The Devs are much smarter than me. I am smarter than you, though, and that's all that matters in this little tOt-a-tOt. There ya go.
Boohoomoar	Posted - 2008.08.14 10:46:00 - [233] Eves biggest expansion lately was faction warfare and has mad a lot of people (25-30k) get involved in pvp and made a lot of people use lowsec. with the new proposals to make bounty hunting a way to earn isk and the new sec hits being based on character sec it might tempt more people with high security status into trying mor eanti pirate activities. looks good from here.
Xeronn Amarr Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:22:00 - [234] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Furb Killer <snip for space> Yeah, that particular guy probably wouldn't have made it back to the gate, but my point is Furb, those who don't want to fight will have a lot more opportunity to avoid it, even when they screw up horribly and put themselves right into the middle of a situation that should get them killed. This, and the fact that in order to secure a kill with any sort of reliability, as Skunk has already very well illustrated (thank you Skunk) it will take a small blob (at a minimum) to get the job done. Which is bad. Oh, and one thing to note about that guy being podded- I tried to open convo with him, and he blocked me, then I told him to eject (I knew he wouldn't have anything of worth fit to his ship lol) or I'd destroy the ship and pod him. He didn't eject, so of course I had to follow through and pod him. But how many people do you know that can get their pod out before some faction smartbombs make it go squish? He logged off and I still squished him before he could emergency warp off. What is funny is that in the last couple weeks I've made over half a bill from bounties off of 'pirates', but in three plus years of pirating, I don't ever recall anyone getting a bounty off of my head, except for maybe once when I was in a hauler in 0.0 for about 20m. Maybe I should be known as a bounty hunter instead? IMHO it`s quite the oposite actually . The MAIN way to you know avoid combat if you don`t wanna fight is nanoing up . So if that gets fixed ... As for web "nerf"..well would you rather have a nano-thing just zooming past your webs and back to gate/out of buble or a 50% web and a MWD killer ?
Djana Libra Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.08.14 12:39:00 - [235] PVP? i thought this was Carebear Online <SIG> I bought the wife a toy Deimos to have fun with while i play eve! </SIG>
Quantam Force	Posted - 2008.08.14 13:02:00 - [236] As a new player to Eve I find the changes good. Its apparent that CCP wants pvp to be team balanced (faction) fleet ops, pirates and done mostly in Low sec 0.0 We all put time into the game and im not saying there should be no risk but players want to enjoy the game how they want, not be forced into a corner. I would like to explore Low sec and Im sure many more would but, who likes to Jump and then be webbed and taken down buy a superior force waiting on you. Wow wheres the fun in that? Make it fun, make tactics work, at least give me(any player) a chance to effectivly fight back. I think the end goal is(should) be to get more traffic in between High and Low therfore more opportunity to pvp and pirate. Its painfull for a player to loose a large ship that cost time and skill to run, if you suicide gank. It should be painfull to the aggrssor as well.
Kristan Knife	Posted - 2008.08.14 13:24:00 - [237] Originally by: Bellum Eternus So here I am, cruising along in high sec looking for untanked AFK haulers to kill when I started thinking about the upcoming patch, how it's going to affect PVP in general, and how all the previous patches have affected PVP. I'm not going to state my opinion about where I think it's headed however. I just want to put some facts out there and their contributions to PVP in general: (sort of in order by date, oldest first) Hitpoint buff, then HP buff again: increased the time required to kill a target. More targets escape destruction. T2 Ammo damage reduction (by some 20%+): all T2 ammo, long range and short ranged reduced in peak DPS and volley DPS. More targets escape destruction. Warp to zero: targets either become invulnerable, warping straight from gate to station and back, or are only able to be attacked as they're jumping away from a gate, not into it. Excludes 0.0 bubble camps. More targets escape destruction. Rigs are introduced: peak tank DPS and static HP skyrocket, peak speeds go insane, peak DPS remain static. More targets escape destruction. The upcoming web nerf: few ships will be able to fit more than one web, or both web and 9km scram at the same time. Targets will MWD, AB or simply float back to gates and jump out, escaping destruction. More targets escape. Ok, so remember when I said I wouldn't give my own opinon about all of this earlier? Well, I lied. I can't let the masses come to their own conclusion. Everyone is too stupid to arrive at the correct answer. Fortunately you have me here to do your thinking for you. \o/ Eve is moving further and further away from nonconsentual combat. Offensive ship capabilities continue to get compromised while defense is improved over and over again. Webs are key to holding a target away from it's avenue of escape long enough to kill it. Now this will be defunct as well. 0.0 guys will have less of a problem with this than lowsec and empire war players, but it will still be somewhat of an issue. One of the main reasons that high sec ganking has become so popular is that it's the only way for attackers to access the ISK rich targets that never ever stray into their combat environment for any reason. They're not even able to be war decced the majority of the time due to NPC corps. Am I saying that the game is doomed and coming to an end? Of course not. But I am saying that if you're a PVPer and you like killing other players for fun or profit, you're going to be liking the results less and less. Just wait till this time next year and you're able to recount all the stories about the one's that got away instead of the ones you killed. CCP continues to reinforce the safety of those who wish to avoid PVP at all costs while doing it at the expense of the rest of the PVP crowd, regardless of what venue they PVP in, whether it be 0.0, low sec or empire. Humm, might it be in the best intrest of Eve-Online to move in this direction? After all we play in one of the harshes envioments of any online game out there. We dont have the 'twink' ability like most games, and we cant be 'power leveled' Which to my knowledge makes Eve-Online a one of a kind game...Oh did I mention the lerning curve? Cant draw in new players when they know some griefer is out there trying to kill them off while they are takeing a wizzz. Look at the map, your outnumbered 30-1 this is a PVE >pvp game.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.14 13:27:00 - [238] Originally by: Kristan Knife Look at the map, your outnumbered 30-1 this is a PVE >pvp game. The more you nerf pvp the more you make the PVE invalid and pointless. The opposite however is not the case. Vote against the nano nerf!
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.14 13:53:00 - [239] Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Thanks for assuming I'm a carebear because I don't agree with you. Try using Eve search and reading some of my previous posts. I'm assuming you're a carebear because you act like one. Stop acting like a carebear and I'll stop assuming. Originally by: Lucy'Lastic If I'd known that you were KI ANS ALT I would never have bothered trying to have a discussion with you. Nice going Sherlock. Took you long enough concidering I've made it quite clear. Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Your ideas and views are most definitely NOT in line with CCPs vision of what this game should be. They are in line with stated vision from before. You know, before the current "placate the carebear" climate. Probably before you started playing, so I don't blame you. Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Here remember this: Originally by: Ki An About the part where you claim the devs are looking to reign in the 'griefers', where have they stated as much? I can't find it anywhere, but you must have a nice link for me, right? The Devs are much smarter than me. No, but that was written before the new climate was made apparent. Originally by: Lucy'Lastic There ya go. I know you feel this is a major victory for you carebears. Gloat while you can.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.08.14 16:27:00 - [240] Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 14/08/2008 16:36:01 Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 14/08/2008 16:28:41 Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 14/08/2008 16:27:56 Here are a few things you can count on: 1. Nobody Really Wants "Quality PvP". For just about everyone, evenly matched fights where you just win by the skin of your hull and you win some and lose some isn't quality PvP. Quality PvP is when you reel off 40 wins in a row without a loss like our OP here. The only unfair fight is the one you lose. At the end of the day, that is what's real. It is human nature to try to stack the deck in your favor, so that you have little to no chance to lose. 2. In Eve, Firepower is Additive Given the above, if you attack solo, I'll bring a gang. You bring a gang, I'll hot drop some caps on you. You bring some caps, I'll bring a fleet. If you kill solo pilots with a five man gate camp or roaming gang, you are being a complete hypocrite if you biotch about "blobbing". It's the same damn thing. Five on one is five on one regardless of how you scale it. You're winning with superior force, rather than superior skill (as if it matters, a win is a win). The same is pretty much true if you attack a boat with no guns on it with a boat that has 8. You sought out a target with inferior firepower, and took advantage. Superior force, not superior skill. Superior skill only matters in tournaments. Bottom line, every somebody in the game is going to try to engage inferior forces, while evading superior forces. Therefore, the most powerful thing you can have in Eve is a friend. More friends is better than fewer, and you will just have to reconcile yourself to the fact that you're probably going to lose to someone who has more friends than you, assuming he and his friends are just as determined to win as you are. You can see this in effect out in 0.0 right now. People are playing a totally busted, unplayble game where hundreds of people stare at their screens for minutes or hours waiting for something to happen for no other reason than they have so much ego wrapped up in the game, and so much determination to "win" that they'll suffer through ANYTHING. 3. If Something Violates the Above, It's Going to get Nerfed. Any game mechanic that allows you to engage a superior force with relative impunity isn't going to last. That goes for zippy nano-boats that allow a gang of 6 to laugh at a gang of 36. That goes for exploiting insurance to laugh at losing your ship to Concord. Where is PvP going? Right back to where it always has been. Everyone is going to try to engage those whose ass they think they can kick, and avoid those who can kick their ass. The biggest egos in the game will bring the biggest blobs in the game, and will ultimately win because winning is so important to them they'll sit through anything to do so. That is what you can count on in Eve.

Trebor Notlimah Lone Star EVE Group	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:09:00 - [241] Edited by: Trebor Notlimah on 14/08/2008 17:12:42 Edited by: Trebor Notlimah on 14/08/2008 17:10:04 Originally by: Call'Da Poleece Originally by: Bellum Eternus I can't let the masses come to their own conclusion. Everyone is too stupid to arrive at the correct answer. Numpty EVE is changing, you have to change with it or GTFO ... This was said thousands of times as World of Warcraft (yea, I said it) went through alpha and beta testing. WoW is great because it appeals to the majority. The majority of people in the world are weiners. See where EvE is going? Quick little fact: In an Alpha Testing Branch of WoW - players who died - dropped their gear, until people started whining about how long it took to get the gear and how quickly it can be lost. I call this the path to weiner-ism, and EvE Online is on it. <3 Trebor
Lucy'Lastic	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:34:00 - [242] Anybody who wants more PvP and combat in Eve should check out this discussion/proposal in the Assembly Halls: Bounty Hunters Considering this is a PvP game I'm surprised it hasn't gathered more support.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:35:00 - [243] Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Anybody who wants more PvP and combat in Eve should check out this discussion/proposal in the Assembly Halls: Bounty Hunters Considering this is a PvP game I'm surprised it hasn't gathered more support. Its been talked about for ages, but nothing happens. Vote against the nano nerf!
Glach Duwat	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:36:00 - [244] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 14/08/2008 16:36:01 Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 14/08/2008 16:28:41 Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 14/08/2008 16:27:56 Here are a few things you can count on: 1. Nobody Really Wants "Quality PvP". For just about everyone, evenly matched fights where you just win by the skin of your hull and you win some and lose some isn't quality PvP. Quality PvP is when you reel off 40 wins in a row without a loss like our OP here. The only unfair fight is the one you lose. At the end of the day, that is what's real. It is human nature to try to stack the deck in your favor, so that you have little to no chance to lose. 2. In Eve, Firepower is Additive Given the above, if you attack solo, I'll bring a gang. You bring a gang, I'll hot drop some caps on you. You bring some caps, I'll bring a fleet. If you kill solo pilots with a five man gate camp or roaming gang, you are being a complete hypocrite if you biotch about "blobbing". It's the same damn thing. Five on one is five on one regardless of how you scale it. You're winning with superior force, rather than superior skill (as if it matters, a win is a win). The same is pretty much true if you attack a boat with no guns on it with a boat that has 8. You sought out a target with inferior firepower, and took advantage. Superior force, not superior skill. Superior skill only matters in tournaments. Bottom line, every somebody in the game is going to try to engage inferior forces, while evading superior forces. Therefore, the most powerful thing you can have in Eve is a friend. More friends is better than fewer, and you will just have to reconcile yourself to the fact that you're probably going to lose to someone who has more friends than you, assuming he and his friends are just as determined to win as you are. You can see this in effect out in 0.0 right now. People are playing a totally busted, unplayble game where hundreds of people stare at their screens for minutes or hours waiting for something to happen for no other reason than they have so much ego wrapped up in the game, and so much determination to "win" that they'll suffer through ANYTHING. 3. If Something Violates the Above, It's Going to get Nerfed. Any game mechanic that allows you to engage a superior force with relative impunity isn't going to last. That goes for zippy nano-boats that allow a gang of 6 to laugh at a gang of 36. That goes for exploiting insurance to laugh at losing your ship to Concord. Where is PvP going? Right back to where it always has been. Everyone is going to try to engage those whose ass they think they can kick, and avoid those who can kick their ass. The biggest egos in the game will bring the biggest blobs in the game, and will ultimately win because winning is so important to them they'll sit through anything to do so. That is what you can count on in Eve. Win. /thread
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.08.14 17:58:00 - [245] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Anybody who wants more PvP and combat in Eve should check out this discussion/proposal in the Assembly Halls: Bounty Hunters Considering this is a PvP game I'm surprised it hasn't gathered more support. Its been talked about for ages, but nothing happens. It's also not a terribly thought through suggestion. What it proposes to do is force more rigid rules and mechanics on the game. That's not a good thing. A suggestion to rework the bounty system is needed, but this is not it.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.14 18:03:00 - [246] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Lucy'Lastic Anybody who wants more PvP and combat in Eve should check out this discussion/proposal in the Assembly Halls: Bounty Hunters Considering this is a PvP game I'm surprised it hasn't gathered more support. Its been talked about for ages, but nothing happens. It's also not a terribly thought through suggestion. What it proposes to do is force more rigid rules and mechanics on the game. That's not a good thing. A suggestion to rework the bounty system is needed, but this is not it. I didnt even bother to read that specific suggestion as it was way too detailed. The key issue is to rework the bounty system, something that has been suggested a gazillion times in various forms. Vote against the nano nerf!
Krows Caldari Resource Reallocators Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.14 18:52:00 - [247] I've never really taken to suicide ganking. But I must ask this, how much of a payoff does a "good" gank tend to net? From some of the things I've heard, profits seem to almost always be at least 200 million. How much does your typical gank ship cost? Does the loss of insurance destroy the entire ganking craft or does it just make the ganker choose his targets better? Hell out of all the "nerfs" coming up, the only thing that bothers me is CCP's potential look into the war dec system.
Yelram Minmatar AnTi.	Posted - 2008.08.14 20:22:00 - [248] Great post Bellum.


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