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Vargur = Marauder, Huh?

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Word	Posted - 2008.08.23 20:39:00 - [1] Wow! a T2 BS, sounds nice eh? Vargur: 4 f'ing turrets, that's it. Fitting, HI 7, MID 6, LOW 5 You really only get 5 Mids because with 11 LADAR you have to fit ECCM to bring it up to a normal 20. I tried to do the Mordu mission, against a blob of torpedo BSs and with no launchers for defender missiles, and the insufficient resistances and shield tank, it's hard to stay long enough to do any damage. Had to go back and get the Machariel to finish the mission. I was in a pirate infested system, so I wasn't too happy having to put the Mach at risk. I've been getting some nice hits, like between 1000-3000 hp on moving ships at range, but with only 4 turrets, I don't know. The targeting time is LUDICROUSLY slow, even with sensor boosters. (CCP, please add this to the list of things that are LUDICROUS) It can insta pop frigates at 100km, but for anything fast, forget it, takes too long to target. How can the Vargur be used?
Waxau Infusion. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.08.23 20:44:00 - [2] Yes. Because those 4 turret slots...so much different that the other Marauders. Like...totally underpowered. cough Many have issues with the Vargur, but none of what you've mentioned have been whined about before. So you just have the wrong idea on the ship. 1. Why do you need ECCM? 2. Why you do you need to lock fast? If you have your targets locked prior to needing to shoot them, then you have no problem there. Seriously have the wrong idea about Marauders i think.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:06:00 - [3] Originally by: Word Wow! a T2 BS, sounds nice eh? Vargur: 4 f'ing turrets, that's it. Fitting, HI 7, MID 6, LOW 5 You really only get 5 Mids because with 11 LADAR you have to fit ECCM to bring it up to a normal 20. I tried to do the Mordu mission, against a blob of torpedo BSs and with no launchers for defender missiles 1) 4 turrets + 100% damage bonus = effective damage of 8 turrets, half the ammo use...? 2) Why do you need ECCM? NPC jamming is 100% chance-based; doesn't make a difference what your sensor strength is. 3) Lol? Defenders? __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Asuka SoryuLangley	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:11:00 - [4] Did you never notice that marauders got a 100% turrets damage bonus? That is like having 8 turrets, and you will save ammo. About eccm: i find it quiet stupid, i never needed/used them in a mission. I'm sure you are doing it wrong somehow.
Nomad Storm Ad Astra Vexillum Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:12:00 - [5] Word.... oh wait
Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:16:00 - [6] 4 turrets, with a 100% damage bonus. (as it says in your vessels description) The LADAR strength is irrelevant unless a player is trying to jam you (NPC jamming is based on chance, not sensor strength) so no need for ECCM. Sensor resolution on the Vargur isn't that much off from a conventional battleship, so locktime shouldn't deviate to much either. These btw, are stats that all Marauders have (with small variations), the main difference being the weapons and secondary bonusses. What I have heard of the Vargur is that it's grid simply doesn't allow for Artillery fits without some fitting modules, which is a valid concern. As for fast targets, there's a reason it has a drone bay, a wing of 5 mediums and 5 lights should give you the tools to take out most faster targets with ease.
Jana Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:16:00 - [7] Originally by: Word ...defender missiles... raises eyebrow New Eden Research, where science is serious business!
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.23 22:21:00 - [8] Stop replying to the troll... Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.23 23:32:00 - [9] A few comments: 1. Defender missiles are all but useless. You'd be better off fitting std missile launchers and adding to your DPS. 2. Stop fitting WCS. This is why your targeting time was crap. 3. 4 100% damage bonused turrets = 8 turrets. It has roughly the same damage pattern as a Maelstrom (but longer falloff and unable to fit artillery) 4. ECCM doesn't help you against NPC jammers. They bypass sensor strength checks. On a related note, NPC defender missiles have a set pct chance to fire against any missile. 5. The extra highs are for drone mods, tractor beams, and salvagers. Arguably, all 7 highs on a Vargur are for tractors and salvagers. For the lulz, can you please give us your Vargur fit? -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments EVESpace	Posted - 2008.08.23 23:35:00 - [10] You bought a Vargur instead of a Golem? What the hell is wrong with you. But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.23 23:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Spaztick You bought a Vargur instead of a Golem? What the hell is wrong with you. QFE.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.23 23:42:00 - [12] Obvious troll is obvious.
Word	Posted - 2008.08.24 00:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Jana Clant Originally by: Word ...defender missiles... raises eyebrow thanks for the suggestions. In the Mordu mission , at one point, you have to tank at least 100 torpedos. Using defenders is the best way to knock them out. That's why I changed to a ship with a couple launcher slots and finished the mission. Tell me how a Vargur can accomplish a LV 4 mission against a blob of missile boat BS npc? How do you tank torpedos? Sorry that I didn't get the Golem, but unfortunately I have too many SP invested in Minmatar gunnery skills. Sorry to those with the "troll" comments. Do any of you actually use the Vargur? I read the info too, that's why I'm wondering if the Vargur is broken. It should be much better. I mean I want it to follow in the Minmatar tradition of being LUDICROUS ! Did you hear me!? I want the Vargur to be LUDICROUS. Please get busy and fix it!
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.08.24 00:53:00 - [14] I have been using the Vargur on my Minmatar character for the past week and find it works very well. I have not had a problem with the tank at all. The only PvE Minmatar BS comparable to it is a max-skilled Typhoon. I blasted through a Guristas The Assault mission with it last night, nice ship. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
Word	Posted - 2008.08.24 01:11:00 - [15] Originally by: FT Diomedes I have been using the Vargur on my Minmatar character for the past week and find it works very well. I have not had a problem with the tank at all. The only PvE Minmatar BS comparable to it is a max-skilled Typhoon. I blasted through a Guristas The Assault mission with it last night, nice ship. Thanks, that's encouraging. I need to do some more work then. Appreciate it.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.24 01:12:00 - [16] Originally by: Word How do you tank torpedos? With an XL shield booster and 3 hardeners of the right types, usually. For Mordus, you'll be looking to Kin/Thm IIRC. Also, you'll be tanking heavy missiles, not torps. It's a very cruiser heavy mission that is actually very good for the Vargur. See: http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=MordusHeadhunters4 for more information. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.24 01:40:00 - [17] Originally by: FT Diomedes I have been using the Vargur on my Minmatar character for the past week and find it works very well. I have not had a problem with the tank at all. The only PvE Minmatar BS comparable to it is a max-skilled Typhoon. I blasted through a Guristas The Assault mission with it last night, nice ship. It's not a bad ship. You'll probably think it's a good ship, if you only compare it to other Matar ships. Just, whatever you do, don't compare it to a Golem/Nightmare/etc. It will make you a sad panda.
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.08.24 01:51:00 - [18] Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: FT Diomedes I have been using the Vargur on my Minmatar character for the past week and find it works very well. I have not had a problem with the tank at all. The only PvE Minmatar BS comparable to it is a max-skilled Typhoon. I blasted through a Guristas The Assault mission with it last night, nice ship. It's not a bad ship. You'll probably think it's a good ship, if you only compare it to other Matar ships. Just, whatever you do, don't compare it to a Golem/Nightmare/etc. It will make you a sad panda. Yes, when you compare any Minmatar BS to almost any other BS, it makes you a sad panda. With that said, the Vargur is good enough with my current setup to make it worth using my Minmatar character for some PvE while he looks for a new alliance. Makes for a nice change from the Navy Mega/Dominix + CNR/Nighthawk combo I have been using to fill my PvP ships fund. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
goober nuts	Posted - 2008.08.24 05:29:00 - [19] umm i have no issues fitting a tank and having artys with some dmg mods its all in the fit i guess here is how i have mine fitted [Vargur, missioning] True Sansha Power Diagnostic System True Sansha Power Diagnostic System True Sansha Power Diagnostic System Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II X-Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 replace the hards with mission spec ones i just put invuls in for cap drain to make it cap stable with the tractors off ... its still no golem or kronos
Thirzarr	Posted - 2008.08.24 07:58:00 - [20] Edited by: Thirzarr on 24/08/2008 08:01:07 Originally by: FT Diomedes Yes, when you compare any Minmatar BS to almost any other BS, it makes you a sad panda. Actually if you fit enough tracking the 1200s are getting rather cool for missioning. Mael with 2 tracking rigs, 3 gyro and 1 tracking enhancer kills cruisers that orbit at 20km. I was surprised myself. Longer range is better ofc, but the Mael shurely equals any other turret BS on mission comfort. edit WOW the Vargur does suck! Not even the Grid for 4 1200mm guns? Ohkay then.
Fenren Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.24 09:07:00 - [21] the vargur is like a hole forest of bamboo shots for the sad minmatar pandas. sure, it would make any non-minmatar a really sad panda but makes all minny-pandas happy... the ac's are great up close and with 2 t2 falloff riggs they hit far enough. the tank is good enough, and with a lg Crystal you wont have a problem tanking anything for a few minutes, wich is enough. fill lowslots with gyros and you are good to go. as long as you compare it with minmatar ships you wont be a sad panda. (remember to compare it ti minny only... or you are back to a sad panda...)
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.24 09:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Word Originally by: Jana Clant Originally by: Word ...defender missiles... raises eyebrow thanks for the suggestions. In the Mordu mission , at one point, you have to tank at least 100 torpedos. . . . I can tank that mission in an unrigged raven. I hardly think the Vargur with it's sturdier resists and tanking bonuses needs help in the form of defender missiles. Here's a pro-tip - blowing up the ships quickly makes the number of missiles drop.
Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.08.24 10:02:00 - [23] Edited by: Meiyang Lee on 24/08/2008 10:04:06 One other thing I noticed EFTing around with the Vargur, even with all skills 5 and Republic Fleet EMP L its DPS is quite a bit lower than the other Marauders. Perhaps a trade off for something, but I'm not really seeing that, as the Golem should then have that aswell. (and since its Grid is more than enough for a set of Siege launchers it has considerably more DPS, although it needs an Afterburner too then.)
Fenren Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.24 10:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Meiyang Lee Edited by: Meiyang Lee on 24/08/2008 10:04:06 One other thing I noticed EFTing around with the Vargur, even with all skills 5 and Republic Fleet EMP L its DPS is quite a bit lower than the other Marauders. Perhaps a trade off for something, but I'm not really seeing that, as the Golem should then have that aswell. (and since its Grid is more than enough for a set of Siege launchers it has considerably more DPS, although it needs an Afterburner too then.) the tradeoff is it beeing minmatar and big, that meens it has to be worse than the other races. but i like that ship, it is fun and faster than any other minmatar ship for missions. and its ac's has more than enough range for the missions i do.
Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.08.24 10:34:00 - [25] Well with 800mm Autocannons it's DPS isn't bad at all. It's just that you'll be mostly working in falloff reducing your damage output quite a bit.
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.08.24 13:18:00 - [26] The Vargur certainly does have the grid to fit 4x 1200mm artillery, with a couple of PDUs to run the tank. I have been using a setup that looks something like this: [Vargur, X's Vargur - Kin/Therm] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Heat Dissipation Field II 1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L Drone Link Augmentor I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.24 15:58:00 - [27] Originally by: FT Diomedes The Vargur certainly does have the grid to fit 4x 1200mm artillery, with a couple of PDUs to run the tank. I have been using a setup that looks something like this: [Vargur, X's Vargur - Kin/Therm] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Heat Dissipation Field II 1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L Drone Link Augmentor I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Due to the lowered ammo consumption, I use faction ammo most of the time. You can't fit T2 1200's without 3x PDU's... and the DPS difference between Scouts and T2 is actually significant. It's also worth noting that a 1400 Maelstrom significantly outdamages a 1200 Vargur with 2 gyros. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.08.24 16:05:00 - [28] 2 Faction PDUs will get the job done for the T2 1200s though, but I agree, it should atleast be possible to fit a set of 1400mm Arties on that thing. I mean, fitting 4x 425mm Rail IIs on a Kronos leaves you with almost 3000! spare grid, after fitting a tank. A Paladin with 4x Tachyon IIs fits like a glove, a Golem can easily fit 4x Siege IIs, so why can't the Vargur fit those 4x 1400mm Arties?
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.24 16:30:00 - [29] Originally by: Meiyang Lee 2 Faction PDUs will get the job done for the T2 1200s though, but I agree, it should atleast be possible to fit a set of 1400mm Arties on that thing. I mean, fitting 4x 425mm Rail IIs on a Kronos leaves you with almost 3000! spare grid, after fitting a tank. A Paladin with 4x Tachyon IIs fits like a glove, a Golem can easily fit 4x Siege IIs, so why can't the Vargur fit those 4x 1400mm Arties? Prenerf of a neut/AC machine. Which was foolish at best, I mean, look how overpowered our current BS neut/AC machines are! I'd LOVE to take out a 700m bullseye with cap sucking mods and underpowered projectiles with a sensor strength smaller than a cormorant! Yeah! (PS. It's not like there's any other capless weapon systems out there that do craptons more DPS than autos)
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.24 16:41:00 - [30] Don't forget the 38.5% actual DPS at optimal + falloff, or the fact that artillery has awful clip size/tracking/range, either.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.24 16:57:00 - [31] Your comparison is a bit simplistic, but I see what you're going for. Still, statements like: Quote: "Golem vs Raven: Golem: 4 * 2 = 8 launchers Raven: 6 / 0.75 = 8 launchers" Ignore the fact that the golem can fit t2 torps and a t2 XL tank easily. Cruise golem works if you're lazy I guess, but I wouldn't be caught flying a cruise setup, haha. As a result, your golem is going to be much stronger offensively than any raven. Still, the Vargur's problems are 1) can't fit artillery (although falloff bonus imo is more of an AC thing), but more importantly 2) projectiles suck. I think we can all agree if the Vargur's bonuses applied to lasers, and it was optimal rather than falloff, it'd be pretty badass. Even good bonuses don't make up for shitty weapons though, and so the Vargur falls behind. Still, it's not a bad ship, and it's the best you can do with Minmatar. Compared to the other races though, it's pretty sad for a marauder.
Xu Wie	Posted - 2008.08.24 21:18:00 - [32] Edited by: Xu Wie on 24/08/2008 21:21:10 Hey Boz, you seem to know a lot about marauders and missions. One day I want to own one but I still haven't done a single mission and haven't decided which ship I want to fly I'm a miner and next week I'll start doing lvl 3 missions with a friend to get some standings and some experience. I read a lot of mission reports (mining can be really boring sometimes ) and I know a lot about the effects of tracking, falloff and hit quality on DPS - in theory. According to my calculations the Vargur (when fitted with autocannons) is not bad at all against Angels and Mercenaries (and I heard that they are the most common adversaries in Heimatar). But I'm the first to admit that my numbers are worth nothing because they're just speculation - and let's face it: only "real" TQ experience is worth anything. And it seems like you have that. Would you (or anyone else reading this post for that matter) be so kind and post a few ISK/hour numbers for me? Because DPS is nice but only ISK/hour matters after all, am I right? Please include your Vargur numbers and all ships you used to run missions with. I hope it's not a problem - you'd make a n00b missionrunner's life so much easier Thanks in advance, Xu, a missionrunner wannabe
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.24 21:32:00 - [33] Well, I can't really post anything that would help ya out much, because I think it just depends on too many variables. For one, how good of an agent will you have? I mission for a Q20 agent usually, which impacts the LP gain per mission. Also, you need to look at how much your LP are worth, and try to find a good item to use to cash out on. You can really make a lot with LP if you train social skills, get a good agent, and work for a good corp and find items that give a nice ISK return per LP. To give you an idea on how it can matter, the most I get per mission is just over 12000 LP, and I can convert those at a little over 2000 ISK per LP, and it's possible to get higher returns in other places. So even ignoring the cash reward/bounties/loot/salvage, you can make a nice return on just LP alone with the right agent. After that, speed enters into it, and depending on your location/agent, certain ships may be better than others. In Matar space, a Vargur isn't that bad a ship, but I'd still go with a Golem, or if you want to spend ISKies, a torp CNR. I've personally never bothered to buy a Vargur, even tho my Matar char could fly one quite well, and if they ever buff projectiles I might change my mind. So basically, it depends. I can say though that when you start missioning, you will be slow in missions, but that will speed up as you learn the missions and your skills catch up. I wouldn't worry about how much you make per hour at first, but rather just worry about getting the missions done in a reasonable amount of time and surviving. You can always optimize your mission running later on. Hope that helps.
thisismyalt	Posted - 2008.08.24 22:24:00 - [34] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Word How do you tank torpedos? With an XL shield booster and 3 hardeners of the right types, usually. For Mordus, you'll be looking to Kin/Thm IIRC. Also, you'll be tanking heavy missiles, not torps. It's a very cruiser heavy mission that is actually very good for the Vargur. See: http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=MordusHeadhunters4 for more information. -Liang I use kin/kin/therm with xl shield booster and 2 boost amps (all t2) on that in golem. Aggro management in last stage is a help too.
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.08.25 01:33:00 - [35] The DPS difference between Scouts and Tech II isn't that great, but I use slightly better guns than either anyway. The Republic Fleet makes some fairly affordable 1200mms, which are just fine for mission running. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.25 01:40:00 - [36] Originally by: Word In the Mordu mission , at one point, you have to tank at least 100 torpedos. Mordus HQ? I'm not sure where you're getting 100 torpedoes from because that would overwhelm any tank. Full room aggro in the last part of Mordus is pretty harsh but it's nothing like you describe. The solution is not to aggro the whole room.
Fenren Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.25 08:29:00 - [37] Originally by: Xu Wie Because DPS is nice but only ISK/hour matters after all, am I right? is it? I thought it was to have fun. it is a game, isnt it? if you want the highest isk/hour then i would recommend trading. if you are after a high isk/hour a golem would outclass the vargur hard. even in minmatar space (dont fly the vargur elsewhere)
Imaos	Posted - 2008.08.25 10:03:00 - [38] Originally by: Durzel Originally by: Word In the Mordu mission , at one point, you have to tank at least 100 torpedos. Mordus HQ? I'm not sure where you're getting 100 torpedoes from because that would overwhelm any tank. Full room aggro in the last part of Mordus is pretty harsh but it's nothing like you describe. The solution is not to aggro the whole room. And defenders don't help against torpedos as each takes 3 defenders to go down IF you can be bothered to get the activation on the defender launcher right. Especially as he is facing as much torps as he claims defenders are useless. A hardener of the right resist will half the incoming damage regardless how many torps are incoming. A defender launcher will kill one torpedo IF it comes in from far enough away. So much less damage avoided if facing more than 2 torpedoes in the timeframe were you can down one. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Forces	Posted - 2008.08.25 10:32:00 - [39] This is the setup that i want to try ona Vargur: 4x 1200II 2x Pith b-type Small Shield Booster (I paid 20 mill each), 2x Invuln II, 2x SBA II DCU II, RCU II, 3x Gyro II Projectile Locus rig and Core Defense Op Solidifier (reduces booster cycle time) Needs a 3% PG Implant to fit and a 5% cap capacity implant helps a lot. 560 odd DPS at 28KM, 663 DPS tanked for 33mins. Probably still not as good as a Golem but hey, what can you do.
Xu Wie	Posted - 2008.08.25 10:36:00 - [40] Edited by: Xu Wie on 25/08/2008 10:37:09 Originally by: Boz Well Hope that helps. TBH no, it doesn't. I'm still not closer to answering the question which marauder is the best for me... Reading your previous posts made me think that you have some direct experience. But I guess that's all just speculation. Thanks anyway. Xu
Neesha Marinn	Posted - 2008.08.25 11:02:00 - [41] Originally by: bldyannoyed 2x Pith b-type Small Shield Booster
Xu Wie	Posted - 2008.08.25 11:08:00 - [42] Originally by: Fenren Originally by: Xu Wie Because DPS is nice but only ISK/hour matters after all, am I right? is it? I thought it was to have fun. it is a game, isnt it? if you want the highest isk/hour then i would recommend trading. Please don't misunderstand what I wrote on purpose. I want to compare the performance of different ships and weaponsystems in missions and the and best way to do that is comparing ISK/hour for the different ships. And BTW I heard that flying Vargurs (or Machariels) in missions was great fun. Originally by: Fenren if you are after a high isk/hour a golem would outclass the vargur hard. even in minmatar space (dont fly the vargur elsewhere) Could you please post some numbers? ISK/hour if you can. Virtually Boz wrote the same thing then admitted that she didn't even own a Vargur... Thanks in advance. Xu
Fenren Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.25 12:00:00 - [43] Edited by: Fenren on 25/08/2008 12:14:32 Originally by: Xu Wie Originally by: Fenren Originally by: Xu Wie Because DPS is nice but only ISK/hour matters after all, am I right? is it? I thought it was to have fun. it is a game, isnt it? if you want the highest isk/hour then i would recommend trading. Please don't misunderstand what I wrote on purpose. I want to compare the performance of different ships and weaponsystems in missions and the and best way to do that is comparing ISK/hour for the different ships. And BTW I heard that flying Vargurs (or Machariels) in missions was great fun. Originally by: Fenren if you are after a high isk/hour a golem would outclass the vargur hard. even in minmatar space (dont fly the vargur elsewhere) Could you please post some numbers? ISK/hour if you can. Virtually Boz wrote the same thing then admitted that she didn't even own a Vargur... Thanks in advance. Xu I believe my standard raven, with quite mediocre missile skills is about equal with my vargur with almost max gunnery (t2 ac only at 4 and sharpshooter too) and vargur lvl4 althou i dont keep track of my isk/hour... also, i waste a heck of a lot faction ammo with my ac's. I bet 2/3 of my LP goes into faction ammo edit: the fun part i can agree on. and it is the best minmatar ship in terms of isk/hour but dont try and compare it with other marauders or faction ravens. a pimped raven is better than a pimped vargur, i promise (althou i have never flown a pimped raven)
Miyamoto Uroki Caldari KuhSchubsKlan	Posted - 2008.08.25 12:12:00 - [44] I dunno. I fly a golem, because I am caldari specced only, so no flames for "easy mode" eh, pvping with caldari isn't easy mode ^^ My mate uses a Vargur, the only useful autocannon version with t2 falloff rigs, which gives him about 48km range (max gunnery skills), a great tracking on cruisers and from my view some nice dps. And also on cruisers some nice dps. Granted, on battleships he can't beat my faction torp golem dps, but considering that even with best named target painter I need as much salvos of torps for a strong cruiser as I need for a strong battleship, he is time wise on par with me in completing missions. Not to mention my travel time of torpedoes and the annoying cooldown period of the target painter. So, peeps are often doing the same major mistake in comparing marauders imho. They compare single details, like dps on battleships etc. Marauders imho always have to be compared as a total package and in that view a Vargur is fine to me and my mate. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face
Fenren Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.25 12:53:00 - [45] yea, the vargur is great against cruisers and battlecruisers. althou mine would probably be better if it had a webber. i can have some trouble with the cruisers that is below 7k or so
Snow Banshee	Posted - 2008.08.25 12:58:00 - [46] Edited by: Snow Banshee on 25/08/2008 13:02:01 Originally by: Word Summ of crap arguments 1) Vargur have only 4 turrets but have also 100% damage from role. So its like having 8 turrets. 2) Bad sensor strenght was made becuse its a PVE ship and not pvp. WTF u fit an ECCM for mission running????? ( read: ECCM dont work with npc ) 3) No missiles? learn hot to use it.. I used a kronos ( with no launchers) and had not any problem. Hell !!! i had no problems even with Mega or a Mega navy issue ( again: without launchers). Conclusion: im not a minnie pilot so i cannot speack about vargur, but i can from the deep of my heart tell you one thing: Your major problem its not your ship... Nothing personal.. just my 2 cents.
Amandin Adouin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.25 14:10:00 - [47] Edited by: Amandin Adouin on 25/08/2008 14:10:50 Originally by: Xu Wie Could you please post some numbers? ISK/hour if you can. Virtually Boz wrote the same thing then admitted that she didn't even own a Vargur... Xu Wait, Boz Well's a girl? "She"'s had us all fooled! Anyway Xu, you don't necessarily have to pilot a certain ship to get an idea of its performance. If your friends fly a Vargur, other people you respect have tried flying a Vargur, and you've seen countless comparisons/figures drawn up, you start to get an idea of what's going on. People here are just trying to help. But I would personally take others' advice and then make up my own mind. Your experiences and preferences are going to vary vastly from anyone elses. For instance, I'm still planning on getting a Vargur, regarless of everything I hear. It just seems like a fun ship. And it will certainly 'do the job'. Also, I think ISK per hour figures are pretty worthless honestly, there's just wayyy too many different variables. You can take the exact same ship and depending on location, social skills, person piloting, etc. they'll have vastly different ISK/hour ratios. No one is saying the Vargur is useless (except maybe the OP who doesn't know what he's talking about). It simply doesn't compare with the other Marauders damage-wise, due in a large part to issues with large ACs.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:04:00 - [48] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 25/08/2008 18:09:25 I don't think anyone is saying the Vargur is useless. It's just that, because of the suckiness of SPESS AHTILLERY it performs rather poorly comparatively. If it were me, I'd fit it as a shield tank/autocannon bull-rusher, just to be ballsy. And Amandin... If you're going pink, why aren't you aiming for the Paladin? A nice sheen on the 'red' hull there, and sweet little radioactive rays of cute and shiny death. Also... Originally by: Boz Well Still, the Vargur's problems are 1) can't fit artillery (although falloff bonus imo is more of an AC thing), but more importantly 2) projectiles suck. I think we can all agree if the Vargur's bonuses applied to lasers, and it was optimal rather than falloff, it'd be pretty badass. Even good bonuses don't make up for shitty weapons though, and so the Vargur falls behind. Like a Nightmare without the sensor strength, you mean? And even more cap problems? :B
Amandin Adouin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:13:00 - [49] Edited by: Amandin Adouin on 25/08/2008 18:13:26 Originally by: Aleus Stygian And Amandin... If you're going pink, why aren't you aiming for the Paladin? A nice sheen on the 'red' hull there, and sweet little radioactive rays of cute and shiny death. I know, I KNOW. That damn ship is like taunting me to go Amarr. Pink hull. "sweet little radioactive rays of cute and shiny death" = <3
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.25 18:25:00 - [50] Quote: Could you please post some numbers? ISK/hour if you can. Virtually Boz wrote the same thing then admitted that she didn't even own a Vargur... Thanks in advance. Xu What I said was you can't just post numbers, because they depend heavily on what agent you're using, what corp you mission for, yada yada. BUT, a golem will deal much stronger DPS, and can change its damage type. The thing about the AC Vargur is this, while you can change your damage types with regular ammo, it's never pure damage (i.e. just one type of damage like missiles). But more than that, you're going to need to be using barrage almost exclusively to get any sort of semblance of range, and barrage deals kin/explosive. Also, you say that someone with barrage has 45km range, but keep in mind that's falloff. Take a look at how much damage you deal at optimal + falloff (50km for a Vargur using barrage with max skills, although I'd probably use falloff rigs to increase that further). But at optimal + falloff, your damage is under 40% of your max damage. Under 40%. Now, the Vargur's raw DPS is already kinda poor, and at 50km, you're hitting for under 40% of that poor damage. Less than half of already low damage. A golem, on the other hand, is hitting for full damage at that range, and with Javelins can even stretch that full dps out another 20km or so, and a golem's full damage is higher (significantly higher) than the vargur's even at close range. There's just really not much comparison imo. The Vargur's a fun ship (it's pretty fast for a marauder), and it can certainly do level 4 missions. But if you want efficiency, Matar ships in general are not the choice. I don't own a Vargur, but for a reason. I've flown all the other Matar battleships, and can do so with max skills aside from weapon specs at 4. I could fly a Vargur, but why would I pay a few hundred million to own a ship that will be worse than my current mission ships? For forum cred? There's just no reason for me to buy one, even though I could fly it well. It's simply not that different from the other Matar ships (although the falloff bonus is nice, and at least makes AC's viable) and doesn't match up with the ships I do fly in missions.
Xu Wie	Posted - 2008.08.26 08:24:00 - [51] Edited by: Xu Wie on 26/08/2008 08:24:43 Fenren and Miyamoto: Thanks for the answers youÆre really helpful. Boz: I asked you a simple question because I thought you had what I needed. Instead of a straight answer (like äI fly a xxx and get yyy ISK/hour though I use a Q20 agent and live in low sec.ö) you came up with excuses. When I saw that youÆd äpersonally never bothered to buy a Vargurö instead of posting my first thought (äif you donÆt fly the ship û most controversial of all mission ships - what are you doing in this thread claiming things like the Vargur is äpretty sad for a marauderö compared to other races?ö) I just tried to ignore you. And then you started lecturing me and came up with even more excusesà I said that I had my own calculations but you still felt the need to post your ownà Apart from the fact that virtually all your numbers are incorrect in one way or the other (e.g. that less than 40% is actually 41.05% with 800mm autocannons and 40.01% with dual 650s) and that now IÆm 99% sure that you donÆt fly a torp Golem either the fact that you used only 2 variables (mentioned 3) to draw your conlusions made me regret that IÆd asked you anything. I had more than a dozen variables (not kidding or exaggerating) and I was afraid to come to a conclusion because you and a few others wrote a lot of bad things about the Vargur. Now I can see that your opinions are based on virtually nothing (well except FenrenÆs but especially after reading MiyamotoÆs post I think that if he canÆt outperform a Raven in a Vargur something is terribly wrong). ItÆs not what I wanted but still made my decision easier. Thanks. Xu who's tired of the forums
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.26 08:47:00 - [52] Lol. You're missing the forest for the trees. You're sitting here correcting me on the exact percentage of damage it does? Lmao. First off, whether it does 38.5% of 700 DPS, or 41% of 700 DPS, it's still a helluva lot less than 100% a Golem's javelin DPS (just over 700, thereabouts). Second, I said it does under 40% at optimal + falloff, and as Astro is so fond of pointing out, it does 38.5%, which (big shocker) is under 40% The 50km number I was using was approximated based on optimal + falloff with max skills. The range optimal+falloff changes with your fitting and skills, but 50km is at least a rough estimate, and as I said I'd fit falloff rigs to stretch this out even further. The POINT of all that I was saying is simply that at optimal+falloff, you're going to be hitting for pretty crappy damage. You can argue whether it's 38.5 or 41, but regardless, that's a big reduction, and the Vargur deals less damage to begin with. Not to mention the Vargur can't choose its damage type most of the time, because it will be using barrage. But sure, flame away. This is obviously based on nothing, right? It's obviously more useful to hear about someone's friend who has a Vargur than to look at actual numbers. And sure, I don't fly a Golem. You found me out! It's actually a torp CNR, which does more DPS than a Golem, at better range, and does a helluva lot more than a Vargur could at any range. If they ever buff projectiles, I'll be first in line to buy a Vargur, but atm, if you can fly another Marauder or equivalent (CNR/Nightmare), it's not worth it imo.
Janus Ovellian Minmatar Encina Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.26 10:05:00 - [53] Originally by: bldyannoyed This is the setup that i want to try ona Vargur: 4x 1200II 2x Pith b-type Small Shield Booster (I paid 20 mill each), 2x Invuln II, 2x SBA II DCU II, RCU II, 3x Gyro II Projectile Locus rig and Core Defense Op Solidifier (reduces booster cycle time) Needs a 3% PG Implant to fit and a 5% cap capacity implant helps a lot. 560 odd DPS at 28KM, 663 DPS tanked for 33mins. Probably still not as good as a Golem but hey, what can you do. That's probably the best arty setup I've seen... Not sure I'd bother with the optimal rig myself (tend not to use EMP for one thing), but I'm impressed that the 2x small shield booster thing works. :) Very original. Interesting times await...
Bloody Love	Posted - 2008.08.26 14:53:00 - [54] Edited by: Bloody Love on 26/08/2008 14:59:10 [Vargur, PvE - 723dps - 1037dps tank/23min] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer True Sansha Power Diagnostic System True Sansha Power Diagnostic System Dread Guristas Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Explosion Dampening Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I Capacitor Control Circuit II Capacitor Control Circuit II Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 The 1037dps tank is vs. Angels, adjust as needed according to the different rats. I know it's a bit more expensive than standard T2, but you paid about 750mil for the ship, so why be cheap with the fitting If you still got some money to spend, put on some CN/DG hardener and CN SBA for almost 1300dps tank, but you should be fine with the 1000dps tank for most - if not all - missions...
Xu Wie	Posted - 2008.08.26 15:39:00 - [55] Edited by: Xu Wie on 26/08/2008 15:43:18 Boz, I wasnÆt flaming. I was a bit upset after learning that your opinion was based on numbers not experience. Then I looked at your numbers and I became more upset. Though you mentioned that you should have fit Ambit Extension rigs on the Vargur you compared it without rigs to a Golem with range rigs. That said your numbers are misleading. BTW to state the obvious this discussion goes nowhere. I donÆt want anything from you. Especially since a very helpful Vargur-pilot reading this thread sent me a mail in game with links to a few very useful threads û with ISK/hour ratios I donÆt know if IÆm allowed to post her name so I wonÆt but itÆs nice to see that thereÆre still a few good people in the forums. Thanks to everyone who had a kind word to me. I donÆt think IÆll post again anytime soon. Xu who has a purpose
yrknat	Posted - 2008.08.26 16:03:00 - [56] Originally by: Bloody Love Edited by: Bloody Love on 26/08/2008 14:59:10 [Vargur, PvE - 723dps - 1037dps tank/23min] 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Looks interesting but why EMP. Plasma is better against every faction other than angels, where you use fusion = less raw dps but more real dps
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.26 17:02:00 - [57] Originally by: Xu Wie I wasnÆt flaming. I was a bit upset after learning that your opinion was based on numbers not experience. Then I looked at your numbers and I became more upset. Posting when upset is a sure fire way to come across as arrogant, rude, or flaming. Take it from me... I know from experience. ;-) Incidentally, Boz is right about the Torp CNR doing more damage than is possible from a Vargur. The damage graphs rather speak for themselves. Of course, there's more than one damage graph for any particular mission (in fact, there is one for each type of rat). The Vargur is a superior mission ship if: - The gates are at range (Mordus HH) - The mission has a disproportionately high number of small ships (Mordus HH) A Torp Golem/CNR will actually come in remarkably close in performance even on the best missions for the Vargur... but a Cruise CNR/Golem will stomp it to oblivion in those same missions. That said, the coolest thing about the Vargur is that it's a T2 Tempest. Hoist the jolly roger, matey! -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.27 01:35:00 - [58] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Xu Wie I wasn’t flaming. I was a bit upset after learning that your opinion was based on numbers not experience. Then I looked at your numbers and I became more upset. Posting when upset is a sure fire way to come across as arrogant, rude, or flaming. Take it from me... I know from experience. ;-) Incidentally, Boz is right about the Torp CNR doing more damage than is possible from a Vargur. The damage graphs rather speak for themselves. Of course, there's more than one damage graph for any particular mission (in fact, there is one for each type of rat). The Vargur is a superior mission ship if: - The gates are at range (Mordus HH) - The mission has a disproportionately high number of small ships (Mordus HH) A Torp Golem/CNR will actually come in remarkably close in performance even on the best missions for the Vargur... but a Cruise CNR/Golem will stomp it to oblivion in those same missions. That said, the coolest thing about the Vargur is that it's a T2 Tempest. Hoist the jolly roger, matey! -Liang It does look pretty cool, but so does a Paladin/Nightmare/CNR (yeah yeah, even the CNR has grown on me, haha, and the camo paint has the side benefit of letting you stay hidden in space ). The upshot of the CNR really is just the torp exposion, which is ridiculously overdone (and awesome). It's also nice to 3 volley BS, 1 volley cruisers, etc., especially considering the rate of fire. Glad you found something useful in another thread, although if your numbers suggest the Vargur competes with the Golem/Paladin, I'd start to question its accuracy. As far as Mordus, my agent doesn't give that mission, haha, so I don't really know what it's like. Aside from that mission, though, the only thing going for the Vargur is the speed, and while it'd be fun to zip around at near 600m/s in a marauder, the speed isn't worth the poor DPS that's only really effective against Angels. Especially for my Amarr agent, it's not worth my time to buy one, even if I can fly it with max skills. I guess that diminishes my forum cred on the Vargur , but oh well. As far as the falloff rigs, I didn't include them because it wouldn't make a difference. The Golem does more damage at 1km, and it does 100% damage out to nearly 70km with javelins. The Vargur's damage gets reduced as soon as it's out of optimal. If it's less than the Golem's at 100%, and gets reduced beyond optimal, you could have 10000km of falloff and it would still deal less DPS, assuming we're talking about the ranges at which the golem can still hit the target. And anything 45km and less, you can use regular/faction torps, at which point your DPS just makes the Vargur pilot cry. Thus, range rigs don't change anything about what I said before, and so I don't really see the big fuss about me not including them. You tend to take issue with meaningless things in my posts, rather than anything substantive, heh. Then again, I guess that makes sense, since I don't think there's a lot of substantive things you can argue in support of the Vargur beating out the Golem. Sorry if I've soured your forum experience, but you should ease up imho. Getting so ****y over a little discussion is just silly, and even if you disagree with me, get over it, heh. Seems to me more like you don't disagree with me, you're just searching for someone that will tell you the Vargur rocks and you should get it. Sorry, no can do here, I just gave you the honest truth about it instead. Even if you do find a thread that tells you the Vargur will earn better isk/hour than a Golem, and the Vargur is the best ship to come along for missions since the tempest (wait...), it won't change the fact that it's the blacksheep of the marauder class atm. If they ever buff projectiles though, you can bet I'll be first in line at the Vargur store.
Veryez	Posted - 2008.08.27 02:45:00 - [59] Originally by: Word In the Mordu mission , at one point, you have to tank at least 100 torpedos. Using defenders is the best way to knock them out. That's why I changed to a ship with a couple launcher slots and finished the mission. Tell me how a Vargur can accomplish a LV 4 mission against a blob of missile boat BS npc? By bringing a Raven along - you'll find it helps all minmatar BS in missions, it allows them to do what their best at - tractor and salvage
Veebora Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.27 03:57:00 - [60] Edited by: Veebora on 27/08/2008 03:57:06 We've had many topics about Vargur being a waste of money. The Vargur should have on his description, "Do not waste money on it until CCP can fix this crap"
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.27 04:29:00 - [61] Originally by: Veebora Edited by: Veebora on 27/08/2008 03:57:06 We've had many topics about Vargur being a waste of money. The Vargur should have on his description, "Do not waste money on it until CCP can fix this crap" It wouldn't help. People just get it in their mind they want to use a certain ship, and will just ask around until someone tells them it's a good idea. Even if that other person's completely clueless, they'll probably believe them because they're saying what they want to hear.
SlaineMor Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2008.08.27 15:00:00 - [62] Surely if you are an experienced Minmatar pilot you will also have tech 2 Torps?! (for the Phoon) so best to x-train for a Golem! Eat my Rusty Bullethole!
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.27 16:51:00 - [63] Originally by: SlaineMor Surely if you are an experienced Minmatar pilot you will also have tech 2 Torps?! (for the Phoon) so best to x-train for a Golem! It makes me sad, but... it's true. I just don't want to spend the ~60 days to train it up. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.27 19:38:00 - [64] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: SlaineMor Surely if you are an experienced Minmatar pilot you will also have tech 2 Torps?! (for the Phoon) so best to x-train for a Golem! It makes me sad, but... it's true. I just don't want to spend the ~60 days to train it up. -Liang Say it ain't so.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.27 19:53:00 - [65] Originally by: Boz Well Say it ain't so. TBH, I'll just fly the Golem on my alt and be just as happy. Hell, my alt actually has socials too... ;-) My Matari just spends the ISK. Alot of it, usually. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.27 20:01:00 - [66] Oh, thought you meant you didn't have t2 torpies. Although dual golems might be interesting... probably better to have a golem + turret boat for popping those frigates though.
bawb2 Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:48:00 - [67] 22M SP, 86K in Missiles, only fly Minmatar ships... You don't always need/have missile skills to play.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:50:00 - [68] Originally by: bawb2 22M SP, 86K in Missiles, only fly Minmatar ships... You don't always need/have missile skills to play. Somewhere right now, a little phoon is crying.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:06:00 - [69] Originally by: bawb2 22M SP, 86K in Missiles, only fly Minmatar ships... You don't always need/have missile skills to play. I didn't start training missiles until about then. ;-) -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Amandin Adouin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.30 00:34:00 - [70] Originally by: Xu Wie ... a very helpful Vargur-pilot reading this thread sent me a mail in game with links to a few very useful threads û with ISK/hour ratios I'm sorry to dredge up this thread, but could you possibly provide me with some of those links/information? I'm still aiming for that ship, and I'd really like to see this info. You mentioned you didn't want to post on the forums for awhile, so you can send me a message ingame if you'd like - I sent you a mail ingame but you haven't logged in I guess. Or if anyone else has any links/info about the Vargur...
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.30 00:37:00 - [71] Originally by: Amandin Adouin I'm sorry to dredge up this thread, but could you possibly provide me with some of those links/information? I'm still aiming for that ship, and I'd really like to see this info. You mentioned you didn't want to post on the forums for awhile, so you can send me a message ingame if you'd like - I sent you a mail ingame but you haven't logged in I guess. Or if anyone else has any links/info about the Vargur... I had a disagreement with Julie Thorne over Vargur performance. She seemed to be a pretty good data analyst and had some (not all) good points about the Vargur. The points somewhat summarize to: - Good if there's lots of small ships - Good if you have to move a long ways between gates -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.08.30 00:45:00 - [72] Having used the Vargur for a couple of weeks now, it can be summed up as follows: It's good if you want to use a Minmatar ship for PvE. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.30 01:40:00 - [73] Originally by: FT Diomedes Having used any Marauder for a couple of weeks now, it can be summed up as follows: It's good if you want to use a ship for PvE. Fix'd.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.30 03:06:00 - [74] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Originally by: FT Diomedes Having used any Marauder for a couple of weeks now, it can be summed up as follows: It's good if you want to use a ship for PvE. Broken. Fixed.
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments EVESpace	Posted - 2008.08.30 03:57:00 - [75] Vargyr is an excellent Minmatar PvE ship with its 30km falloff, which puts it on par with a cruise Raven for damage. No, seriously, 6 cruises and 3 BCUs. But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.30 05:54:00 - [76] Originally by: Spaztick Vargyr is an excellent Minmatar PvE ship with its 30km falloff, which puts it on par with a cruise Raven for damage. No, seriously, 6 cruises and 3 BCUs. And it's capless! BTW, you aren't actually serious are you? You took the time to take a screenshot, so I am sort of wondering now.
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments EVESpace	Posted - 2008.08.30 06:02:00 - [77] Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: Spaztick Vargyr is an excellent Minmatar PvE ship with its 30km falloff, which puts it on par with a cruise Raven for damage. No, seriously, 6 cruises and 3 BCUs. And it's capless! BTW, you aren't actually serious are you? You took the time to take a screenshot, so I am sort of wondering now. PvE is serious ****ing business. But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.30 07:24:00 - [78] Originally by: Word Wow! a T2 BS, sounds nice eh? Vargur: 4 f'ing turrets, that's it. Fitting, HI 7, MID 6, LOW 5 You really only get 5 Mids because with 11 LADAR you have to fit ECCM to bring it up to a normal 20. I tried to do the Mordu mission, against a blob of torpedo BSs and with no launchers for defender missiles, and the insufficient resistances and shield tank, it's hard to stay long enough to do any damage. Had to go back and get the Machariel to finish the mission. I was in a pirate infested system, so I wasn't too happy having to put the Mach at risk. I've been getting some nice hits, like between 1000-3000 hp on moving ships at range, but with only 4 turrets, I don't know. The targeting time is LUDICROUSLY slow, even with sensor boosters. (CCP, please add this to the list of things that are LUDICROUS) It can insta pop frigates at 100km, but for anything fast, forget it, takes too long to target. How can the Vargur be used? Only 1 NPC faction jamms - and it's not Mordus sunshine, if you use an ECCM on all your misions then your a damn fool.
JohnPaulJones Caldari Under the Gun	Posted - 2008.08.30 07:47:00 - [79] ECCM doesnt work on mission rats..hmm..someone explain why my Kronos stays in a state of perma jam in Recon 1 of 3 when the Dire frigates lock me down. Explain to me why when ECCM is fitted that perma jam is reduced to a few random jams. On second thought I really dont care to hear it. If your a smart person you'll ignore the trolls and armchair admirals and find out for yourself. Dont let anyone tell you something doesnt work.About the time I think something doesnt work some "dingdong"(to quote the Alltel nerds) makes it work after which the trolls and armchair admirals cry for a nerf to make their world perfect again. ECCM does reduce perma jam by Dire frigs to random jams. Now cry nerf and let loose the tears of pitty.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.30 08:03:00 - [80] Originally by: JohnPaulJones ECCM doesnt work on mission rats..hmm..someone explain why my Kronos stays in a state of perma jam in Recon 1 of 3 when the Dire frigates lock me down. Explain to me why when ECCM is fitted that perma jam is reduced to a few random jams. On second thought I really dont care to hear it. If your a smart person you'll ignore the trolls and armchair admirals and find out for yourself. Dont let anyone tell you something doesnt work.About the time I think something doesnt work some "dingdong"(to quote the Alltel nerds) makes it work after which the trolls and armchair admirals cry for a nerf to make their world perfect again. ECCM does reduce perma jam by Dire frigs to random jams. Now cry nerf and let loose the tears of pitty. The guy who wrote the code disagrees with you. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.08.30 08:16:00 - [81] Not sure where, but I am quite sure I read somewhere (by a Dev) that while NPC ECM is completely chance based a ECCM effectively reduces jamming a little bit by resetting the NPCs jam cycle every time the module itself cycles. (because your sensor strength will very briefly drop back to its old stat and then go back up again as the module re-activates) This does not actually change the chance of getting jammed, it just forces the NPCs to try and jam more often.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.08.30 13:55:00 - [82] Originally by: Liang Nuren std missile launchers -Liang Safe sex!
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.08.30 14:08:00 - [83] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Originally by: Liang Nuren std missile launchers -Liang Safe sex! Please. Come on. We always knew that most missiles were full of AIDS and fail.

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