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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 70 post(s) |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4153
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Posted - 2012.05.08 10:22:00 -
[1171] - Quote
Baki Yuku wrote:dumb ppl shouldnt be talking dumb ****
Perhaps you should take your own advice then? "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Andy Landen
Tartarus Ventures Surely You're Joking
20
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Posted - 2012.05.08 11:42:00 -
[1172] - Quote
Here is an idea: Let the DD use charges that costs 800 mil ISK each. A DD should be expensive and not used lightly. If you can afford a Titan, you can afford the DD charge. |
I'm Down
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
62
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Posted - 2012.05.09 02:04:00 -
[1173] - Quote
I guess PL's killboard is proof Greyscale was right.
Oh wait, no, the ****** was totally wrong.
GG mate, now dreads are OP vs smaller ships, and titans still blap. I give it a month before people reach comfort zone levels with the change and Capitals online gets worse than ever.
Learn your ******* tracking mechanics before doing **** changes next time deuchbag... or did some PHP tell you it was working? |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
63
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Posted - 2012.05.09 12:43:00 -
[1174] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:I guess PL's killboard is proof Greyscale was right.
Oh wait, no, the ****** was totally wrong.
GG mate, now dreads are OP vs smaller ships, and titans still blap. I give it a month before people reach comfort zone levels with the change and Capitals online gets worse than ever.
Learn your ******* tracking mechanics before doing **** changes next time deuchbag... or did some PHP tell you it was working?
Most of the ships killed in that fight was killed by the sub caps, not the dreads, and they were probably not doing anything to avoid the them, like trying to consider transversal, and definitely didn't have any of the obvious counters, such as any type of ship with an AB instead of MWD or simply outranging the pulse/blaster fitted dreads. Ahacs produced similar results until people learned how to deal with them, and so did Hellcats VS the Drakes that were brought in to counter the ahacs. |
I'm Down
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
62
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Posted - 2012.05.10 05:36:00 -
[1175] - Quote
steave435 wrote:I'm Down wrote:I guess PL's killboard is proof Greyscale was right.
Oh wait, no, the ****** was totally wrong.
GG mate, now dreads are OP vs smaller ships, and titans still blap. I give it a month before people reach comfort zone levels with the change and Capitals online gets worse than ever.
Learn your ******* tracking mechanics before doing **** changes next time deuchbag... or did some PHP tell you it was working? Most of the ships killed in that fight was killed by the sub caps, not the dreads, and they were probably not doing anything to avoid the them, like trying to consider transversal, and definitely didn't have any of the obvious counters, such as any type of ship with an AB instead of MWD or simply outranging the pulse/blaster fitted dreads. Ahacs produced similar results until people learned how to deal with them, and so did Hellcats VS the Drakes that were brought in to counter the ahacs.
steve, you are truely a ******* moron. Quit making excuses and recognize that the 100% ideal solution to gameplay isn't reality you dumb ******* ****.
Game designers don't design gameplay based on flawless performance.... so quit pretending that the solution to 1 life in mario is not dieing rather than a ******* magic mushroom for the average player. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
433
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Posted - 2012.05.10 06:26:00 -
[1176] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:GG mate, now dreads are OP vs smaller ships...
???
What practical changes were made to dreadnoughts? |
ilammy
1
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Posted - 2012.05.10 12:26:00 -
[1177] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:What practical changes were made to dreadnoughts? I think none. Someone just tried to use the dreads vs subcaps (instead of continuing muttering a 'dreads are crap against subcaps' mantra) and they actually managed to kill something. Before the patch they weren't killing stuff, after they did kill something. It's obvious that they did that not because they were actually used, but it should be definitely the results of the patch. |
I'm Down
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
63
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Posted - 2012.05.10 17:48:00 -
[1178] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:I'm Down wrote:GG mate, now dreads are OP vs smaller ships... ??? What practical changes were made to dreadnoughts?
Dread tracking was doubled, making them blap titan tracking able. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
117
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Posted - 2012.05.11 02:28:00 -
[1179] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:I'm Down wrote:GG mate, now dreads are OP vs smaller ships... ??? What practical changes were made to dreadnoughts? Dread tracking was doubled, making them blap titan tracking able. Please understand game mechanics first and post second . . . their tracking was doubled and so was their signature resolution
x/y * a/b == 2x/y * a/2b
it makes literally no difference. |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
64
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 08:08:00 -
[1180] - Quote
Sigras wrote:I'm Down wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:I'm Down wrote:GG mate, now dreads are OP vs smaller ships... ??? What practical changes were made to dreadnoughts? Dread tracking was doubled, making them blap titan tracking able. Please understand game mechanics first and post second . . . their tracking was doubled and so was their signature resolution x/y * a/b == 2x/y * a/2b it makes literally no difference. We already tried to explain that, he doesn't understand the tracking mechanics. |
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
434
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 08:31:00 -
[1181] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:Dread tracking was doubled, making them blap titan tracking able.
There has been no practical change to dread tracking, they were able to tracking subcaps before. The fits and tactics involved have been around for... over a year now? At very least that long.
No offense, but you claimed a lot of capital FC experience but didn't know dreads were able to track subcaps? |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
667
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 09:13:00 -
[1182] - Quote
Haven't visited this thread in a while.
Glad to see great big giant e-peen tears are still flowing like wine Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
I'm Down
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
63
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 15:10:00 -
[1183] - Quote
tracking is not the same.... grey scale proved it in an earlier post when he specifically stated that the tracking half of the formula was modified by range.
Dreads could not track nearly as well before, and were easily out maneuvered by any moving ship. |
ilammy
1
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Posted - 2012.05.11 19:34:00 -
[1184] - Quote
Yes, but the effect of the doubled tracking is mitiagated by the doubled signature resolution. It's integral factor of tracking speed of the guns, angular velocity of the target and their signatures.
I don't want to speculate upon the formula. If you refuse to believe its integral, go check yourself:
1. Get a target ship and a shooter. Set the target ship orbiting the shooter. Logistics needed for prolonged tests. 2. Get some webs and painters. You will need a single Statis Webifier I and a Phased Weapon Navigation / T2 painter on a rapier (assuming you have Signature Focusing IV). You got the idea: GÇô50% speed and +50% signature. 3. Web the target, shoot it for two-three minutes. 4. Take off the webs, paint it, shoot again. 5. Go to %My Documents%/EVE/logs/Gamelogs, look here for a relevant log file. Extract the data with dealt damage, compare distibutions. If they do differ significantly, they you can really say that the formula is crap.
I'm not saying it's right to have signature resolution mitigated by range, but it was so before the patch, and it is so after the patch. Nothing has changed effectively. My damn old eft says a revelation with 1 TE, 1 TC and 2 target painters could easily hit a battleship which is 40 km away for 4k DPS with a maximum transversal (up to 7k if is low). Before the patch. Blapping? Yeah. |
Kiev Duran
Grand Solar Trinity Surely You're Joking
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 22:23:00 -
[1185] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:tracking is not the same.... grey scale proved it in an earlier post when he specifically stated that the tracking half of the formula was modified by range. This means that the tracking half of the formula can take on extrodinary values that can diminish any significance sig resolution has. Hence, hitting stationary targets for full normalized damage.
Dreads could not track nearly as well before, and were easily out maneuvered by any moving ship.
I'm going to post some simple math in a hope you understand and shut up.
(a/b)*(x/y) = (2/2)*(a/b)*(x/y) = (a/b)*(2/2)*(x/y) = (2a/b*(1/2)*(x/y) = (2a/b)*(1/1)*(x/2y) = (2a/b)*(x/2y)
This follows from the distributive property. The distributive property also follows for functions valued in the real numbers as well as simple variables. But simple variables are also functions, so when looking at the above we can surmise that the following holds regardless of the various functions of the formulas (even if some have actual calculations and other are simple values):
[a(x) / b(x)] * [f(x) / g(x)] = 2*[a(x) / b(x)] * 1/2*[f(x) / g(x)]
The problems that arise when a denominator term equals 0 (not approaches, but actually equals) cause the formulas to break not because of any problems with the equivalence of the above, but because of a violation of one of the axioms of the real numbers. When you attempt to divide by zero, you run into contradictions and paradoxes such as all numbers being equal to each other. I can demonstrate this too:
A = B AB = B^2 AB - A^2 = B^2 - A^2 A * (B - A) = (B - A) * (B + A) A = B + A A = 2A 1 = 2
The point where this breaks is the division of (B - A) on both sides of the equation. Because (B - A) = 0, we have divided by zero and broken one of the axioms of the real numbers. The equation becomes invalid. |
Parsee789
Immaterial and Missing Power
99
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 02:01:00 -
[1186] - Quote
Looks to me that Dreads still don't get used as much as people think. Titans can make short work of one with a DD or two. Considering how hotdrops are so common against regular caps, I would be hesitant to use a Dread unless its in a cyno jammed system. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
117
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 09:56:00 -
[1187] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:tracking is not the same.... grey scale proved it in an earlier post when he specifically stated that the tracking half of the formula was modified by range. This means that the tracking half of the formula can take on extrodinary values that can diminish any significance sig resolution has. Hence, hitting stationary targets for full normalized damage.
Dreads could not track nearly as well before, and were easily out maneuvered by any moving ship. ok, lets actually do the math here . . .
This is the formula
so were a revelation with pulse lasers (perfect skills) trying to hit a naked harbinger orbiting us at full speed at a range of 20 km
Harbinger sig radius 265 Harbinger speed 188 Revelation tracking (pre nerf) .00253 Revelation Sig resolution (pre nerf) 1000 Revelation tracking (post nerf) .00506 Revelation Sig resolution (post nerf) 2000 Revelation Optimal 23 km Revelation Falloff 13 km
Pre Nerf Formula .5^((188/(20,000 * .00253)) * (1000/265))^2 + (0/13)^2
.5^((188/50.6) * (1000/265))^2 + (0/13)^2
.5^(3.715415 * 3.773584)^2 + 0^2
.5^(14.0204339622)^2 + 0
.5^196.57256849
6.69515382 * 10^-60
Post Nerf Formula .5^((188/(20,000 * .00506)) * (2000/265))^2 + (0/13)^2
.5^((188/101.2) * (2000/265))^2 + (0/13)^2
.5^(1.8577075 * 7.547169811)^2 + 0^2
.5^(14.0204339622)^2 + 0
.5^196.57256849
6.69515382 * 10^-60
See? when you multiply the two factors together there is LITERALLY NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL
I dont know which part of that could possibly confuse you, but if you want to point out a flaw in my math please, by all means go ahead. |
Andy Landen
Tartarus Ventures Surely You're Joking
21
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 16:03:00 -
[1188] - Quote
Titan change .. let's see .. remove the ability of a Titan or SC to jump. That about balances them. Plus, no natural wh can accommodate their mass for a single ship anyway .. and the jump drive certainly shouldn't be able to make any larger whs. Augment that with the Hyperspace drive medium slot module to enable Titans and supers to move between systems. |
I'm Down
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
63
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 01:54:00 -
[1189] - Quote
Let me adapt this arguement so that you guys actually understand where you're so ******* clueless:
What you guys are leaving out of the raw mathematics is the player driven influence. When your tracking is so abysmal that you have no incentive to add tracking boost, range boost, sig boost, etc, then players won't do those things. Just like when a ship cost 40 million versus 100 billion, you have less incentive to put on the most elite gear in game. It's a player driven incentive system.
This is where player exploration of game mechanics comes into play and why I say that it's NOT equal. Pre patch, players had very little incentive to modify tracking, to adjust sig res.
Post patch, we have an incentive to do exactly that.
Now lets look at the different tools we have in game:
Tracking Computers Tracking Enhancers Webs Painters Range
If you notice, all of those tools have a way to affect one of the 3 variables you list in that formula. The only variable that cannot be affected by anything in game is gun resolution. That means it's a static number, not a variable. It's only a variable across all ships. But as far as I know, Eve mechanics only allow you to fly one ship at a time. The moment you choose a ship and fit it's guns, those sig resolutions you fit are finalized.
There is no player driven mechanic that can change this other than to climb into another ship.
When you affect sig the way Greyscale has done, it has very little implication on the tracking formula. It's a static number, it doesn't matter. Players have the option of changing all three of the other variables to the point where that sig resolution change has little to no impact on the overall game mechanics. It's not equal.
Now the too long didn't read part
Players can exploit game mechanics very easily when the developers do not take into account why or how they make a change. I've stated countless times here and elsewhere that the problem lies in the tracking formula itself, and particularly with sig resolution not be affected by range.
I've asked that they make an appropriate patch where they address the issue, and not some time waste of a solution that we as players can exploit. That's not an unfair thing to ask. It seems to me, if the players are telling you exactly how they will exploit something, and you do not address it, then your work is futile.
Right now, the only reason you are not seeing super caps online and massive game mechanic exploiting battles is that the players themselves have gone into a short lull in activity. That will not last much longer. Once the activity picks up again, you will start to see heavy use of the same mechanics and a much higher rate of new mechanical exploits as a result of Greyscales idiocy.
In addition, we now have a horrible precedent set in this game where the devs have committed to artificially reducing damage and taking away a player driven sandbox fundamental. In one patch, Greyscale just murdered a core foundation of EVE, and set the table for genocide of EVE sandbox game play. |
Marzuq
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 04:39:00 -
[1190] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:Let me adapt this arguement so that you guys actually understand where you're so ******* clueless:
Blah Blah Blah I am a genius you are all morons, you don't know anything. Here's my proof:
Blah Blah Blah General Statements Blah Blah Blah, more general statements, Blah Blah Blah
Its hard to take you seriously when you ***** like little *****. You say things like players exploiting and other stuff, but you don't really elaborate how its exploiting. Tracking Computers, Webs, etc are all part of game mechanics. You saying those are exploits and that we should do away with them?
If this changes encourages players to use these more, I don't see the problem. These are not broken or overpowered compared to some other things within the game.
Sig resolution and Scan radius does indeed make a difference. Any angular velocity is multiplied by Scan resolution/sig radius. Therefore your actual tracking to your target is not the tracking shown on the gun, there is math involved, which you don't clearly understand.
As for the matter of being further away makes it easier to track and hit you. It infact does apply in real life as well. Take your arm and outstretch it and move your inner arm, an inch. Now measure the amount of distance moved by your finger tips, you'll see it moved about half a foot. A turret in real life will track at targets better further away than ones that are closer, since it requires less movement of the turret to align to the direction of the target.
Now accuracy is another matter. The further the target is the harder it becomes to hit it. This accuracy is known in eve as optimal range and falloff. The computer is able to accurately track and hit targets effectively up to a certain distance. After beyond that distance inaccuracy starts to become a factor (known as falloff). The design of the gun also factors in.
Accuracy based on range (Optimal and Falloff). Therefore we do indeed have this accuracy we speak off.
Also remember, it is computers and machines that coordinate the shooting, not humans.
Besides if you want to argue about realistic then let see you argue this:
Imagine a maelstrom shooting a rifter with 1400mm artillery cannons. Let say that the rifter pilot was a moron and the maelstrom pilot got luck at managed to hit the rifter with a shell.
Now imagine a spacecraft the size of a 747 being hit with a explosive armor piercing shell the size of volkswagon hit your vehicle going at over several kilometers per second. I doubt you'll have an intact rifter after be grazed by a single shot of an 1400mm artillery shell.
But with mechanics of proposed sig radius and signature resolution affecting damage that would not happen which is unrealistic in itself.
How disappointing that PL has a moron in you within their ranks. Go ahead and ***** some more, let see you embarrass yourself and your alliance even further. |
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Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Narwhals Ate My Duck
96
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 04:58:00 -
[1191] - Quote
Dreads tracking Battleships?
Old news buddy, People have known that it was possible for a very long time, with lots of webs and painter (90% web effect is needed to do big damage)
Possible yes, worth using in PVP? Not really. Other than Battleships that you can hit by webbing and painting them like crazy, you
really can't hit anything else, for any real damage. You'll scratch the paint of a cruiser and you certainly will never touch a frig.
Locking times are long and you can only lock a few at a time. Not to mention you have wait for a target to get down to the speed
where you can actually hit it. Battleships(especially plated battleships) don't slow down very quickly. Standing still targets are like
a fish in a barrel, you're a moron if you're stand still while getting a dread lock you.
Which is why they aren't really fielded that much unless it involves killing other capitals or smashing pos towers.
As far as I can tell, the tracking changes hasn't made any difference at all. |
Ashera Yune
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2012.05.14 05:30:00 -
[1192] - Quote
I'm Down, for a member of PL, you seem pretty.. whats the word? Dumb! Yes....
I should try putting my app into PL, if a guy like you can get in, I'm certain I will as well.
You must be a Down Syndrome hence the name.
Get off the Computer and go back to special Ed. |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 08:02:00 -
[1193] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:If you notice, all of those tools have a way to affect one of the 3 variables you list in that formula. The only variable that cannot be affected by anything in game is gun resolution. That means it's a static number, not a variable. It's only a variable across all ships. But as far as I know, Eve mechanics only allow you to fly one ship at a time. The moment you choose a ship and fit it's guns, those sig resolutions you fit are finalized
It's not a variable in that case, but it's still a multiplier. Same thing goes for tracking computers, webs etc etc, they're all percentage based, so they will give the same relative value no matter what. With doubled gun sig resoloution, you need doubled tracking to make up for it, and since all those mods you mentioned only give percentage based effects, you can't multiply the tracking any more then you could before. Therefore, it's exactly the same.
Do you really think that everyone else in eve, including the devs that made the actual code and has access to the 100% exact and accurate formulas, have got it wrong while you alone got it right? If it had been anyone else, I'd have called troll by now... |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
14
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Posted - 2012.05.14 17:00:00 -
[1194] - Quote
I was actually recounting GÇÿthe good old daysGÇÖ recently with a good friend who left Eve, oh about 2006 time, but we still had a chuckle about the day (when we were in IAC in Catch) when, during one of the frequent 'raids' on IAC's first outpost system, he alphaGÇÖd a Crow during station shenanigans...
...with 3500mm Quad Artillery.
Funny how things never change - Dumb piloting is still, well, dumbGǪ
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 18:01:00 -
[1195] - Quote
Ah fantastic, so *it* is on youtube...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj5Y7hsIUYI
*Doff's cap
So er, someone was complaining about *recent* changes to dreads?...
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
Rebecca Cole
Pestis Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 19:11:00 -
[1196] - Quote
silly people debaiting if the chance to hit formula is as it should be. It still makes me grin when you can be stot by a ship when you are orbiting it faster than it can swing it's guns, Transversal >Tracking speed should be an automatic miss, the size of the target under those circumstances is irrelevant.
Hopefully after the ship classes has been finished CCP will give a group the time and resources necessary to totaly rework the turret mechanics. At the rate they tackle complex issues as opposed to their current quick fixes I'm expecting that around 2020.
On the plus side CCPs apparent inability to predict how their sweeping changes alter the game do make for some really good opportunities to make isk. |
destiny2
30
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 07:21:00 -
[1197] - Quote
I acttualy found it amuseing looseing a frig to a titan. if it really takes a titan to kill a frig then by all means let em do what their doing. but nerfing them. why do you care if titans can hit frigs. more money spent on plexes for CCP as alot of players have boughten the isk for titans just so they can one shot frig fleets.
the changes are meh.
but after reading the post and all the mambo jumbo on the topic, If a titan cant lock a frig and if a titan pilot per say where going to use a draclira's modified large smart bomb on his/her fit with only a range of 10.5km a big swarm of range fitted t1 frigs could very well kill that titan.
as you have clearly taken away the titans abilities to kill subcaps. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
894
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 04:40:00 -
[1198] - Quote
Rebecca Cole wrote:silly people debaiting if the chance to hit formula is as it should be. It still makes me grin when you can be stot by a ship when you are orbiting it faster than it can swing it's guns, Transversal >Tracking speed should be an automatic miss, the size of the target under those circumstances is irrelevant.. The ship might fly into your shot. Because there are several guns, one might be in front of the ship, ready to fire... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
458
|
Posted - 2012.05.27 00:50:00 -
[1199] - Quote
destiny2 wrote:more money spent on plexes for CCP as alot of players have boughten the isk for titans just so they can one shot frig fleets.
Heh you think that people actually buy PLEX to get titans
hint: they don't eh |
Zicon Shak'ra
Vacuo Anomalia
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 17:56:00 -
[1200] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Greyscale, Please consider special-casing XL turrets and implementing a signature radius based solution. If you modify chancetohit (from http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ) by adding a sigrad based falloff function, but restrict the implementation just to XL turrets, it could be done very quickly. In time for the April escalation release, if not earlier. Plus, special-casing XL would mean subcap v subcap gameplay is not affected and nobody would really care if XL turrets were "special" with respect to sigrad effects. I think if you locked yourself, Masterplan, and Soundwave in a room this could be done in a matter of hours.
Smart Goon is smart. |
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