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LadyLubU2
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.10.20 18:04:00 -
[181]
 Originally by: Highwind Cid
Originally by: Malcanis
With these changes I'm pretty confused as to what minmatar BS roles are supposed to be (well the Mael is sorta obvious I guess, but not the phoon or the pest).
About the maelstrom, what role does it play?
The heavy tanking/crap dps/no tackle one, one of them out there has to be this.
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NARF FALCONS!!!
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.20 23:32:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Tsual
Don't see it as that idiotic when looking at the overall picture.
You're absolutely right, nerfing battleship mass is essential to fixing those damn nano HACs.
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Pant Alones
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.21 00:14:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/10/2008 10:48:53
It's so fortunate we're in a Minmatar battleship threads, so mods don't read/care about massive derails ;)
Anyway, WAR is quite awesome, really, but I can't play on US servers where you ****ers are, it appears.
Also, Astro, you really want to try it out, loads of fun. Tried a WH which is loads of fun, 10/10 for style, very good close-range DPS (with limited ranged ability, but with a ranged snare effect for tackling runners), etc. Awesome for murdering squishy targets in a hurry.
Trying out shadow warrior as well, fun class to play.
AH HAH! so this is why you havent been in eve the last few days. I got bored of my WH at lvl 24 or 25 or whatever he is. I want to start a new class but :effort:
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Idara
Caldari
Failure Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.21 04:27:00 -
[184]
Originally by: LadyLubU2
Originally by: Highwind Cid
Originally by: Malcanis
With these changes I'm pretty confused as to what minmatar BS roles are supposed to be (well the Mael is sorta obvious I guess, but not the phoon or the pest).
About the maelstrom, what role does it play?
The heavy tanking/crap dps/no tackle one, one of them out there has to be this.
Nerf Maelstroms.
Wait...
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Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first
in EVE - Idara |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.21 04:41:00 -
[185]
Originally by: LadyLubU2
The heavy tanking/crap dps/no tackle one, one of them out there has to be this.
Crap dps? 1100+ dps. Guns dont use cap. Thats pretty good yes.
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[Video] Support Barrage |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.10.21 04:58:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: LadyLubU2
The heavy tanking/crap dps/no tackle one, one of them out there has to be this.
Crap dps? 1100+ dps. Guns dont use cap. Thats pretty good yes.
Considering it's out DPS'd by the Torp Raven (1200 non over heated using faction torps) at up to 30km (or more if the raven pilot uses range rigs), or out dps'd at point blank range (where it's actually going to have a hope in hell of achieving that kind of damage) by a Neutron Mega. It's "pretty good" until you look at the stiff competition (which, incidentally, is cheaper by a noticable amount).
And being cap free is only of use if the ship is active tanking (because you are using all those highs for guns presumably and therefore aren't going to be sacrificing your own cap to nuke the other guy's), but it seems that active tanking by and large has been deemed "stupid" by "those people who know what they're doing", and therefore the utility of that "bonus" is somewhat "questionable" (Just imagine someone doing finger quotes when reading that last sentence).
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2008.10.21 05:16:00 -
[187]
Typhoon can be handy for being the all DPS battleships that you need in those pesky 10/10 plexes and level 5s. It just does it up close.
Damn this has me confused, why minmatar BS's? Doesn't that go against the entire minmatar philosophy?
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.10.21 05:17:00 -
[188]
Originally by: EFT Warrior
Typhoon can be handy for being the all DPS battleships that you need in those pesky 10/10 plexes and level 5s. It just does it up close.
Damn this has me confused, why minmatar BS's? Doesn't that go against the entire minmatar philosophy?
Well, they are built from essentially garbage. And, well - garbage in, garbage out. 
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Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.21 06:39:00 -
[189]
what ****es me off most about this is that ccp havn't admitted that minmatar bs's or any of the minmatar race is a problem..... hell I'd rather them come out and say "It's too much to do nano and minmatar and missile fix at once so you'll have to wait a year till it's fixed". At least then we'd know they where listening and thinking about a fix rather than being afraid that they put some crappy fix together in 5 hours that takes what I like about minmatar ships away. Or otherwise they just ignore it all and let the minmatar be the joke race of eve.... even more than it is now.
If I train for the FOTM it gets nerfed and if I train for a specific type of combat ccp can still nerf it or completely redesign it cause it doesn't go with their way of thinking.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
ygfdtgdf
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Posted - 2008.10.21 07:25:00 -
[190]
Edited by: ygfdtgdf on 21/10/2008 07:25:28
may i ask if u have checked the armor of phoon?
i didn't checked but they may have increased it, that can be the reason why phoon has more mass now.
yea im so optimistic
ooo lol wrong char =)
hehe
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Semkhet
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.21 07:37:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
The fundamental flaw in the argument is that Sisi is not TQ. It's like a physics argument that starts with "a sphere in a vacuum". Sisi fights are not representative of much of the PVP in Eve. It often takes place with implants you simply do not have (crystals, slaves, snakes as examples), or using mods you wouldn't risk on TQ (officer/deadspace and even faction). Frequently they revolve around a 1v1, and the results are hardly indictive "real world" performance.
Correct, and that's why changes on SiSi should never warrant more than superficial chats about the stats the devs are fiddling with. Until SiSi modifications don't hit TQ, it's of dubious pertinence.
Besides reserving all the uproar in order to unleash it AFTER TQ gets messed up is more sensible since in these conditions the impact on the customer base is wider and stronger.
Lately I have the impression that some CCP devs either are fighting for an incompetence award, playing dices with stats or are suffering cognitive issues.
Beyond any subjective comparisons about this and that, all I know is that EvE in many areas is already a slow paced game, and if we all end having to spend the double of time just to go from origin to destination, given that the majority of individuals who are good at what they do in RL suffer free time constraints, EvE might turn into a game available only to people enjoying loads of free time: kiddies, individuals living on social benefits and retirees.
If the current patch goes through unchanged, be prepared to the new EvE: Snoring Online 
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Malcanis
RuffRyders
Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.21 07:42:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: LadyLubU2
The heavy tanking/crap dps/no tackle one, one of them out there has to be this.
Crap dps? 1100+ dps. Guns dont use cap. Thats pretty good yes.
Considering it's out DPS'd by the Torp Raven (1200 non over heated using faction torps) at up to 30km (or more if the raven pilot uses range rigs), or out dps'd at point blank range (where it's actually going to have a hope in hell of achieving that kind of damage) by a Neutron Mega. It's "pretty good" until you look at the stiff competition (which, incidentally, is cheaper by a noticable amount).
And being cap free is only of use if the ship is active tanking (because you are using all those highs for guns presumably and therefore aren't going to be sacrificing your own cap to nuke the other guy's), but it seems that active tanking by and large has been deemed "stupid" by "those people who know what they're doing", and therefore the utility of that "bonus" is somewhat "questionable" (Just imagine someone doing finger quotes when reading that last sentence).
That +37.5% active tanking bonus might change the maths on buffer vs active tanking a bit. Not that a resist bonus like the Rokh's wouldn't be much better of course.
After the speed nerf, the old saw about minmatar ships being versatile enough to be the worst at everything really will be true. Although with the new emphasis on sig radius rather than velocity, perhaps people will start to care about target painters more. 
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Akyla
Bears Inc
Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2008.10.21 09:05:00 -
[193]
The Maelstrom can be tanked pretty hard to be honest, 700+ DPS if I remember correctly. Without sacrificing gank, as shield tanker.
And I just checked the Typhoon, but the only changes are mass and inertia. No change to armor.
Also, I noticed the speed on the Typhoon is reduced by 20, when I seem to remember that was 30 in one of the previous versions. In effect that means the percentage by which the Typhoon's speed was reduced is actually less than on any other BS. Maybe that makes up a bit for the increase in mass.
Ah well... just keeping my fingers crossed here.
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All your honey are belong to us! |
royal killer
Amarr
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:31:00 -
[194]
Holy crap if those stats are correct...89 base speed on my abaddon !?!? why not just give it a siege mod and a jump drive
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*ding ding!*
Wrangler: Hello and w
*ding ding!*
Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners. |
Khadur
Minmatar
The Priory
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:40:00 -
[195]
Originally by: royal killer
Holy crap if those stats are correct...89 base speed on my abaddon !?!? why not just give it a siege mod and a jump drive
haha exellent
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:20:00 -
[196]
Mmmm... as for the Maelstorm - it's a good ship when you want good DPS (not top notch but not very subpar compared to competition) / no tackle / heavy active tank.
This makes it good for fairly smallish gangs - in a heavy 4-5 man gang (where you'll at the very least have a tackling HIC because BS don't tackle very well) you don't have enough BS to make RR-ing very good, and when fighting other small gangs the 1+K DPS tank of the Maelstorm is quite worthwhile, particularly in crystal clones.
Of course, if you've got 5-6+ BS, then the Maelstorm is a somewhat inferior choice (except for a pure sniper role, which foregoes one of its bonuses although you get a better sniper then the Tempest), and it gets worse as gang sizes go up.
For BS gangs, you have one serious choice, the Typhoon. Post-patch, of course, it will have to either have its own painter (reducing it to 0 tackle after MWD/cap booster/painter/ECCM, all being mandatory modules) or have someone paint the target to do damage with torps, but otherwise it's still ok. Speed got majorly shafted, but you were not using it in that scenario really. The only real gripe with the ship is the messed shield HP / armour HP value on a obvious armour tanker (7 lows). It's a good RR BS for people who cannot fly the Geddon.
For any attempt of solo usage on the Typhoon, the torpedo explosion radius nerfs insures that you absolutely must have a painter (so no ECCM to patch up your horrible sensor str or cap booster if you're going neut heavy) to do any reasonable damage to BS (while with 450m explosion radius torps, you did a solid job vs unpainted BS, 533m is already a heavy DPS reduction). So the torp nerf and the speed nerf combined nerf it for solo, but I don't think we'll be seeing any BS soloing post patch whatsoever to begin with.
The rationale of making the Typhoon so heavy (which is already quite heavy in a proper - read: plated - fit already) is unclear to me, but a lot of what the devs are doing is totally idiotic these days so meh.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.21 13:55:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Malcanis
That +37.5% active tanking bonus might change the maths on buffer vs active tanking a bit. Not that a resist bonus like the Rokh's wouldn't be much better of course.
After the speed nerf, the old saw about minmatar ships being versatile enough to be the worst at everything really will be true. Although with the new emphasis on sig radius rather than velocity, perhaps people will start to care about target painters more.
Feel free to check out a thread I made called "Lasers, Projectiles, and Buffer Tanks". In this thread I compared a fully t2 fit mael to an abaddon with t1 guns. The damage at range was about similar (with lasers pulling ahead around 25-30km), and the mael had a slight tank advantage when looking at low DPS numbers. However when looking at serious amounts of DPS (Who goes in a lowsec gang without gank?), the time to live evened out pretty well. The sad part is the Abaddon had a warp disruptor and ECCM, the maelstrom had none of these. Also, had it been using t2 guns, it would outdamage the mael at every range, by far.
The fact is however that the maelstrom is not likely to be primary anyway. It doesn't matter if you're tanked to hell if you're the only one left alive in your gang.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.21 17:10:00 -
[198]
The torp argument is such a moot point soon. The missiles are getting adjusted and AC maelstrom will outperform the phoon in general DPS on targets. Maelstrom is fine.
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[Video] Support Barrage |
RedSplat
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Posted - 2008.10.21 17:43:00 -
[199]
At current it is EASY to get EFT to create a Panther that does above 6km/s; this is without resorting to snake implants or boosters (i gave up on it at this point, objective achieved)
Okay, so fairly 'ludicrous speed' (then again have you ever seen one in flight?) but what's going to happen post speed nerf when the Phoon hull fails its diet.
Is my dream of a 6km/s+ BS going to die?
I hate you CCP, youve ruined a whole style of gameplay 
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Idara
Caldari
Failure Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.22 13:29:00 -
[200]
Looks like on the latest build the Abaddon is back up to being the heaviest Amarr BS.
No changes to the Minnies.
Raven is still ~5m kg lighter.
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Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first
in EVE - Idara |
Knawt Ongrid
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Posted - 2008.10.22 17:06:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Idara
Looks like on the latest build the Abaddon is back up to being the heaviest Amarr BS.
No changes to the Minnies.
Raven is still ~5m kg lighter.
Well, you know, the poor Raven needs help. I mean go to any mission hub and all you see are pimped Minmatar ships like the Tempest and Phoon. Or go into any 0.0 system and what's there belt ratting but a cloaking Tempest or Phoon. Hardly ever a Raven.
And in pvp 6 torps on a Raven are easily out damaged by the ACs on a Tempest. Especially beyond 5km. Those AC are so powerful once you get past 5km. Torps just can't keep up. So the Raven needs the ability to outmaneuver and control range on other battleships.
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Akyla
Bears Inc
Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2008.10.23 08:29:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Knawt Ongrid
Originally by: Idara
Raven is still ~5m kg lighter.
Well, you know, the poor Raven needs help. I mean go to any mission hub and all you see are pimped Minmatar ships like the Tempest and Phoon. Or go into any 0.0 system and what's there belt ratting but a cloaking Tempest or Phoon. Hardly ever a Raven.
And in pvp 6 torps on a Raven are easily out damaged by the ACs on a Tempest. Especially beyond 5km. Those AC are so powerful once you get past 5km. Torps just can't keep up. So the Raven needs the ability to outmaneuver and control range on other battleships.
Argh! My sarcasmometer just overloaded!
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All your honey are belong to us! |
Knawt Ongrid
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Posted - 2008.10.23 16:54:00 -
[203]
Yes, was a moment of inspiration.  
Sometimes the best arguments do not involve well reasoned and mathematically supported argumentation, just simple observation nobody can deny.
Poor Minmatar BS, did one assplode the wrong dev somewhere? |
Idara
Caldari
Failure Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.25 02:57:00 -
[204]
Edited by: Idara on 25/10/2008 02:58:42
Sorry guys, nevermind.
The Tempest is an awesome battleship, in fleet or small gang or 1vs1 combat.
And the damage type spread for projectiles outweighs their general ****tyness.
Zulupark is right.
Oh wait, no he's not.
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Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first
in EVE - Idara |
Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.25 10:01:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Idara
Edited by: Idara on 25/10/2008 02:58:42
.....
The Tempest is an awesome battleship, in fleet or small gang or 1vs1 combat.
And the damage type spread for projectiles outweighs their general ****tyness.
.....
damn it knawt why did u have to brake my sarcasmometer... now i can't tell if the above was serious or not.
As for how to fix the minmatar I'd like to see some of the ships with dual proj dmg bonuses changed to 20% bonus to dmg per lvl and 5% rof penelty per level. Not nearly a complete solution but it would give ships like tempest, munin etc. a proper alpha strike without having amarr fit projectiles. |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.10.25 10:22:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Idara
Edited by: Idara on 25/10/2008 02:58:42
Sorry guys, nevermind.
The Tempest is an awesome battleship, in fleet or small gang or 1vs1 combat.
And the damage type spread for projectiles outweighs their general ****tyness.
Zulupark is right.
Oh wait, no he's not.
no he faisl when he said anythign about shield tank. TRy it. Specially try to make a shiedl tanked REp Fleet tempest. You will notice there is not enough CPU for that.
IF tempest has more cpu then at least it could fullfill a gank and extra agile BS role.
The simple fact is all traditional tempest tactics have been nerfed one after the other on the last 2 years. Nos nerf, ECM nerf and overheat (overheat nerf completely the concept of close kiting because if you are in middle of a mwd cycle you will never be able to rec to an enemy overheating his MWD.
The only think I woudl like for tempest is a bit more CPU (so specially the faction version can be usefull) and have a mass and agility advantage over all other battleships so it can play the more nimble BS role. No and a 2% is not a really advantage. Somethign close to 10% because it need soemthing to compensate having a significantly lower dps and lower tank than most of its competitors.
Also when Zulupark says that changing damage overweights anything he is simply forgetting missiles that can change BETTER the damage type and are still basically superior.
Somethign that NEED to be changed. MAke fusion the top damage ammo and EMP the 3rd one. Explosive is to be our top damage, not EM!!! |
Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2008.10.25 10:48:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Idara
Edited by: Idara on 25/10/2008 02:58:42
Sorry guys, nevermind.
The Tempest is an awesome battleship, in fleet or small gang or 1vs1 combat.
And the damage type spread for projectiles outweighs their general ****tyness.
Zulupark is right.
Oh wait, no he's not.
no he faisl when he said anythign about shield tank. TRy it. Specially try to make a shiedl tanked REp Fleet tempest. You will notice there is not enough CPU for that.
IF tempest has more cpu then at least it could fullfill a gank and extra agile BS role.
The simple fact is all traditional tempest tactics have been nerfed one after the other on the last 2 years. Nos nerf, ECM nerf and overheat (overheat nerf completely the concept of close kiting because if you are in middle of a mwd cycle you will never be able to rec to an enemy overheating his MWD.
The only think I woudl like for tempest is a bit more CPU (so specially the faction version can be usefull) and have a mass and agility advantage over all other battleships so it can play the more nimble BS role. No and a 2% is not a really advantage. Somethign close to 10% because it need soemthing to compensate having a significantly lower dps and lower tank than most of its competitors.
Also when Zulupark says that changing damage overweights anything he is simply forgetting missiles that can change BETTER the damage type and are still basically superior.
Somethign that NEED to be changed. MAke fusion the top damage ammo and EMP the 3rd one. Explosive is to be our top damage, not EM!!!
This depends on what sort of shield tank you are going for, sadly although minmatar ships get an active shielding bonus, its not enough, needs a boost to 10%/lvl to be effective or even remotely useful, currently we all know that passive/ehp based tanks are the way to go now.
As for changing Fusion <-> EMP, I agree, however I believe that Depleted Uranium should have a +falloff bonus as it goes inline with its description as been commonly used by minmatar pilots, it would also greatly assist the t1/faction ammo users.
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