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Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.13 19:02:00 - [1] New BS masses/inertias/base speeds from latest Sisi build Everyone else gets a huge reduction in masses. Abaddon and Ravens are now lighter than the Tempest (the lightest Minnie BS on Sisi). There are only three BS heavier than the Tempest, the Rokh, Scorp and Geddon, with the Typhoon and Maelstrom also being heavier. Yeah, they got more base speed than everyone else, but why in the hell did everyone else get a mass reduction while the minnies get a mass INCREASE?! Come. On. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.13 19:03:00 - [2] You [FAILD] at posting. __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.13 19:04:00 - [3] Originally by: Last Wolf You [FAILD] at posting. INTELLIGENT POSTING++ --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.13 19:09:00 - [4] Wow... as if BS's weren't slow enough. 89 base speed? It'll take a full minute just to slowboat 5km away. I thought they wanted to remove the Mandatory in MWD... Now its more mandatory than ever to have SOME sort of speed mod. Unless they're WANTING everyone to Click > Approach > Tab OOG and read forums/watchtv > continue step 3 for 5-6 minutes > Tab back into game. If anything base speeds need to be INCREASED, not reduced :/ __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.13 19:10:00 - [5] Sigh. I told people about this months ago and the only response I got was "Well they said they were fixing mass!" -Liang --
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.13 19:12:00 - [6] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/10/2008 19:13:47 Wtf? What did poor BS do to CCP? Also, mass murder of Minmatar BS masses? Seriously now. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:06:00 - [7] Edited by: Wannabehero on 13/10/2008 20:06:28 [/voice of awe and terror] Sweet gentle jesus... [/voice] -- Don't harsh my mellow
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:17:00 - [8] Originally by: Idara New BS masses/inertias/base speeds from latest Sisi build WHAT THE **? I fail to grasp the reason why the raven needs its mass shaved, while the typhoon needs some weight added AND less agility. also, why the speed decrease on the megathron? seriously, what. the. ? --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:24:00 - [9] The Caldari Amarr agents have overtaken CCP! ----------------------
d'hofren Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:24:00 - [10] eh? These are place holders yes?

Space Fascist	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:25:00 - [11] But capless weapons. Also, you'll be able to walk in stations!
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:31:00 - [12] Originally by: d'hofren eh? These are place holders yes? That would only make sense if they left the Minnie stats as they are on TQ, intending to do them later. In actuality they took the time to go through and specifically add mass to the minmatar battleships while removing mass from every other BS in the game. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
Arn Novelus Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:35:00 - [13] Its incredible, this whole "reworking of the nano-nerf" Did they honestly expect with just taking it away for a bit then having a live dev blog saying the same stuff and putting it all back on the same way that we'd not notice its just as messed up as the last time they suggested it?, and this from a pure caldari player...god knows what mim specced players are doing right now _____________________________________________________________________
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:44:00 - [14] Rofl, the snipe-oriented rokh gets a 15% mass reduction and minmatar BS actually go up in mass. I really don't get CCP sometimes. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Idara New BS masses/inertias/base speeds from latest Sisi build Everyone else gets a huge reduction in masses. Abaddon and Ravens are now lighter than the Tempest (the lightest Minnie BS on Sisi). There are only three BS heavier than the Tempest, the Rokh, Scorp and Geddon, with the Typhoon and Maelstrom also being heavier. Yeah, they got more base speed than everyone else, but why in the hell did everyone else get a mass reduction while the minnies get a mass INCREASE?! Come. On. Well minmatar BS are over powered. (I read all about it here in 2006)
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:47:00 - [16] Edited by: Burn Mac on 13/10/2008 20:48:26 The worst changes within those are imo the following: Raven Mass: 110->99.3 (9.72 % Mass drop, why?) Rokh Mass: 120->105.3 (12.25 % Mass drop) Apoc Mass:107.5-97.1 (9.67 % Mass drop) Bot worst thing is all the BS:es that get the velocity cut big time is getting a mass drop to compensate (why? its like replacing a OD with a Nano) Except on Minne BS:es they get none just the shaft, seems like each balancing on the other races ships are getting compensated (slower top speed well you get better mass and/or inertia, ah your minmatar lets slow everything down)
d'hofren Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:49:00 - [17] Originally by: Arn Novelus Its incredible, this whole "reworking of the nano-nerf" Did they honestly expect with just taking it away for a bit then having a live dev blog saying the same stuff and putting it all back on the same way that we'd not notice its just as messed up as the last time they suggested it?, and this from a pure caldari player...god knows what mim specced players are doing right now Honestly? I'll tell you, most of us are settling down in amarr BS after noting how god awfuk the pest has been since alpha was made wortless by the hp boost and ecm was nerfed to the point it isn't worth fitting unless it is bolted to a ship with a related bonus. Then the mael arrived, the much trumpeted saviour of mini bs, which transpired to have an active tank, be too slow to fit ac's on and suffer the same arty issues as the pest. Mind you we had the phoon I suppose, a decent ship slightly sullied by the fact most other races could train into a carrier in the time it took us to use the thing with a pure TII fit. Then we got the target painter as our racial ewar, yep the only ewar system that does nothing to mitigate incoming damage.
Corwain Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.10.13 20:50:00 - [18] Edited by: Corwain on 13/10/2008 20:50:07 One second you're ***ing that after the nano nerf BS with be the be all end all combat ship...the next second you're ***ing that your BS will be too slow to be any good in a fight. Make up your damn minds! -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
whisk Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:02:00 - [19] great... Adapt or Die
whisk Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:06:00 - [20] how about vindy and mach? Adapt or Die

P'uck	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:08:00 - [21] I told you back then. The wage slave that put the changes into the DB accidentially hit the "+" key on the numpad. You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:08:00 - [22] Edited by: NightmareX on 13/10/2008 21:10:11 Instead of crying like a crybaby, then try out the Minnie BS'es on sisi. I have tested the Tempest on those changes, and as far as i can see, it's working really nice. The Tempest is actually working better in some situations as it would do now on TQ for me. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:17:00 - [23] Nightmare I think we've all established that you have a really poor sense of judgment. You think things are "fine" if there's a 0.1% chance of you having parity with another ship/race.... You're dead wrong there, and you're dead wrong here. I will admit that the Pest makes out better than blaster ships... but they're just getting nerfed so hard they'll never see the light of day again. -Liang --
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:17:00 - [24] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 13/10/2008 21:10:11 Instead of crying like a crybaby, then try out the Minnie BS'es on sisi. I have tested the Tempest on those changes, and as far as i can see, it's working really nice. The Tempest is actually working better in some situations as it would do now on TQ for me. Because now you go too slow to overshoot? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Liang Nuren Nightmare I think we've all established that you have a really poor sense of judgment. You think things are "fine" if there's a 0.1% chance of you having parity with another ship/race.... You're dead wrong there, and you're dead wrong here. I will admit that the Pest makes out better than blaster ships... but they're just getting nerfed so hard they'll never see the light of day again. -Liang This is the ships i have been fighting in my Tempest on sisi with the speed and web nerf + the mass changes. 14 x Megathron. Won over 10. 7 x Raven. Won over 5. 5 x Armageddon. Won over 3. 2 x Apocalypse. Won over both. 1 x Rokh. Won over it. 4 x Maelstrom. Won over all 4. 2 x Dominix. Won over 1. 2 x Hyperion. Won over 1. And 65-70% of all those players i have been fighting on sisi have had Crystals or Slaves or other weapon implants on. And that's the reason i always use Slaves and other damage implants etc on sisi. Now tell me, is that a bad result to be done in a Tempest?. I would say NO. And don't come with that oooohhh most of them are probably newbs. No, most of them have been really experienced and old players. So yeah Liang, i think you have a point by the Blasters on sisi now. I had the Megathron Federate Issue on sisi when the same changes was on sisi earlier. And i know what your talking about. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:33:00 - [26] Excellent, now I can use autocannon's long range to my advantage! Nobody will be able to stop my 95m/s kite of death. 200 DPS or not, I think it's extremely overpowered. Those blasters won't even be able to hit me!
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:43:00 - [27] Forgot to say this to. Earlier on sisi today i was just having fun with a Sniper Tempest in FFA 1. Then a Huginn was like 70 km away from me. It was only me and him there then. Then i started to shoot him. Took him down to 25% shield before he was like 32 km from me where he was orbiting me at 2.2k m/s. Yes i did allow him to get that close and web me and orbit me at that speed. But the thing the Huginn pilot didn't know was that i did still hit him while he was orbiting me at that speed. Then 1 more volley and took him down to 3-5% shield, and then the Huginn pilot started to panic a little and tried to fly away from me, but then 1 more volley and boom, dead. I didn't even had the time to release my drones when he had come closer to me before he popped. So yeah, Sniper Tempest's are still pretty good. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:52:00 - [28] Originally by: NightmareX Forgot to say this to. Earlier on sisi today i was just having fun with a Sniper Tempest in FFA 1. Then a Huginn was like 70 km away from me. It was only me and him there then. Then i started to shoot him. Took him down to 25% shield before he was like 32 km from me where he was orbiting me at 2.2k m/s. Yes i did allow him to get that close and web me and orbit me at that speed. But the thing the Huginn pilot didn't know was that i did still hit him while he was orbiting me at that speed. Then 1 more volley and took him down to 3-5% shield, and then the Huginn pilot started to panic a little and tried to fly away from me, but then 1 more volley and boom, dead. I didn't even had the time to release my drones when he had come closer to me before he popped. My Tempest only had one Tracking Computer II as a module that gives more tracking. I had no Tracking Enhancers fitted in low slot, and no tracking implants. So yeah, Sniper Tempest's are still pretty good. Uhhhh, wait, you just told us that he ****ed up by the numbers and your conclusion is that the sniper pest is pretty good? -Liang --
whisk Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:54:00 - [29] Edited by: whisk on 13/10/2008 21:53:52 Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 13/10/2008 21:48:29 Forgot to say this to. Earlier on sisi today i was just having fun with a Sniper Tempest in FFA 1. Then a Huginn was like 70 km away from me. It was only me and him there then. Then i started to shoot him. Took him down to 25% shield before he was like 32 km from me where he was orbiting me at 2.2k m/s. Yes i did allow him to get that close and web me and orbit me at that speed. But the thing the Huginn pilot didn't know was that i did still hit him while he was orbiting me at that speed. Then 1 more volley and took him down to 3-5% shield, and then the Huginn pilot started to panic a little and tried to fly away from me, but then 1 more volley and boom, dead. I didn't even had the time to release my drones when he had come closer to me before he popped. My Tempest only had one Tracking Computer II as a module that gives more tracking. I had no Tracking Enhancers fitted in low slot, and no tracking implants. So yeah, Sniper Tempest's are still pretty good. so, you kIlled some noob in huggin and suddenly tempest is good?;) Adapt or Die
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:55:00 - [30] No i told that the Sniper Tempest was still able to hit a Huginn that was orbiting me at 32km with a speed of 2.2k m/s. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'

Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:55:00 - [31] Originally by: whisk so, you kIlled some noob in huggin and suddenly sniper tempest is good?;) This is pretty much my reaction. It's a recon ship - one hardly known for EITHER firepower or durability. In fact, there is almost no scenario imaginable where the pest could lose to the Huggin - other than termal stupidity on the Pest pilots part (ZOMG! I forgot to load ammo before leaving station and all my mods are offlined!)
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:56:00 - [32] Edited by: NightmareX on 13/10/2008 22:00:41 Originally by: whisk so, you kIlled some noob in huggin and suddenly tempest is good?;) I was waiting for the omg he must be a noob comment. No he's not a newb doh. He was doing like every other Huginn pilots would do. Keep the transversal high by not flying right to my Tempest, and then get close to me and orbit at max speed while webbing me. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
EFT Warrior	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:57:00 - [33] And here I thought I could speed tank my Tempest against those pesky buffer torp ravens; guess that's out the window.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:58:00 - [34] Originally by: NightmareX No i told that the Sniper Tempest was still able to hit a Huginn that was orbiting me at 32km with a speed of 2.2k m/s. My point is that the Huginn pilot ***ed up by the numbers and you killed him for it. There's nothing surprising at all about this... and it doesn't mean that the arty pest is a great ship. And at any rate, another implication of this is that the Huginn is now thoroughly ***ed. -Liang --
whisk Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:58:00 - [35] Edited by: whisk on 13/10/2008 21:59:37 Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: whisk so, you kIlled some noob in huggin and suddenly tempest is good?;) I was waiting for the omg he must be a noob comment. No he's not a newb doh. He was doing like every other Huginn pilots would do. Keep the transversal high by not flying right to my Tempest, and then get close to me and orbit at max speed while getting webbed. ill fix my comment so, you kIlled huggin on test server and suddenly tempest is good ? omgZ! im not saying its bad, its great ship vs support and 1on1, but in gang id rather have abaddon or raven with me Adapt or Die
Triest Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.10.13 21:59:00 - [36] Oh, hey, it's NightmareXxxXX posting about how the Tempest is awesome because he can kill people on SISI with it. Everyone, get your numbers and other logic out of this thread, NightmareSephirothXX has killed dozens, nay, hundreds of other battleships in 1 on 1 combat, relying on his slave set, 5% combat implants, and his multispectral ECM to prevail!
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:00:00 - [37] Originally by: NightmareX I was waiting for the omg he must be a noob comment. No he's not a newb doh. He was doing like every other Huginn pilots would do. Keep the transversal high by not flying right to my Tempest, and then get close to me and orbit at max speed while getting webbed. Our point is that this is the WRONG THING TO DO in that situation. He ****ed up, you killed him, there's nothing confusing or surprising. It doesn't mean that the ship is "fine". -Liang --
whisk Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:00:00 - [38] Originally by: Triest Oh, hey, it's NightmareXxxXX posting about how the Tempest is awesome because he can kill people on SISI with it. Everyone, get your numbers and other logic out of this thread, NightmareSephirothXX has killed dozens, nay, hundreds of other battleships in 1 on 1 combat, relying on his slave set, 5% combat implants, and his multispectral ECM to prevail! and ECM drones and you have my setup:) it works nice, but damage is pityfull Adapt or Die
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:03:00 - [39] Edited by: NightmareX on 13/10/2008 22:04:50 LOL, for me the Sniper Tempest have always been good and a fun ship to use in fleet fights. There is a reason i choose to use a Sniper Tempest over a Sniper Mega when i'm 50/50 specializated on both races. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Lumy Minmatar eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:05:00 - [40] Tempest (maybe other ships) with 1400mm arties II (maybe other guns) on Sisi is bugged. It always deals damage, regardless hit or miss. Log says the gun should miss (be it either high transversal, beyond optimal range or resolution), but target still takes damage. It pretty much surprise-butt-seks anything bellow battleship. Yes, I filed a bug-report. Joomla! in EVE - IGB compatible CMS.

whisk Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:06:00 - [41] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 13/10/2008 22:04:50 LOL, for me the Sniper Tempest have always been good and a fun ship to use in fleet fights. There is a reason i choose to use a Sniper Tempest over a Sniper Mega when i'm 50/50 specializated on both races. because fitting rails in thron is gay? Adapt or Die
Vireti	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:09:00 - [42] From mass ans speed to "what i did with my guns today" in two easy steps, well done! for those that don't know the raven is one of the more agile bs out there already, fit a mwd and it'll outrun a mega therefore i can only assume it's being reduced so it won't feel left out being unable to tank and fit an ab/mwd like other bs. Unfortunately it's been dropped on it's head. He is correct though, if you're in a cruiser now you need to be literally ontop of your target or you're so slow you can't avoid bs guns, or fit a tracking disruptor with is funny really because they're reworking missiles, but unlike turrets there's absolutely no defence against them. Atm we sit and ask "why bother using an afterburner not a mwd" but on sis it's why bother using a mwd instead of an after burner", then they added the bs where we've gone from not needing them at all if we didn't want to fitting a speed mod always, it's just not possible to not use them which is great if you fly the abbadon because anyone who does will know that the current speed with mwd is less than 900ms, well go reprocess that an buy a geddon, it's about 40ms faster! What people (still) haven't got into their heads is this is not about removing the perma mwds from eve, it's about slowing EVERYTHING down. Hacs going to fast? got to make the bs slower then! + inties cannot avoid light weapons now and last time i checked, those didn't tank well while tackling. In any case i could rant about all the "improvement" but simply it's takes you longer to do anything now so instead of taking you 30 min to make that trip from A to B* it now takes 45, personally i play for fun and don't enjoy eves little chores and i'm quite sure not a single other (paying) player is going to enjoy wasting an extra few hours a week from their lives just to move from system to system. They put this off first time round because of the lash-back they got, once people begin to realise what is going on there's going to be another 50 page thread in the gd section of the forum just like the carriers [someone please feel free to start one, it's inevitable] and, i suppose amusingly, if they ignore it they're going to watch their player base decline after deployment. Travelling is not fun, increasing it because we could fly hacs at 5km/s is borderline idiocy. *the net side effect of this is actually a reduction in the combat areas, since travelling distances is pretty much impossible at speed, even for inties. Since eve is advertised on its emesne size, and since most combat takes place at artificial bottlenecks (gates, belts, stations) already, reducing it, well. Thumbs up for making my game more enjoyable, two accounts arnt being renewed in January .
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:24:00 - [43] Originally by: Lumy Edited by: Lumy on 13/10/2008 22:14:01 Tempest (maybe other ships) with 1400mm arties II (maybe other guns) on Sisi is bugged. It always deals damage, regardless hit or miss. Log says the gun should miss (be it either high transversal, beyond optimal range or resolution), but target still takes damage. It pretty much surprise-butt-seks anything bellow battleship (ninja edit:and probably battleships too, haven't tried). Yes, I filed a bug-report. It's lots of bugs on sisi now, so i can't deny that then. I have to test that more out to see if it is like that. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Sirokko Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:24:00 - [44] Originally by: Lumy Edited by: Lumy on 13/10/2008 22:14:01 Tempest (maybe other ships) with 1400mm arties II (maybe other guns) on Sisi is bugged. It always deals damage, regardless hit or miss. Log says the gun should miss (be it either high transversal, beyond optimal range or resolution), but target still takes damage. It pretty much surprise-butt-seks anything bellow battleship (ninja edit:and probably battleships too, haven't tried). Yes, I filed a bug-report. Lol, well that would explain that.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:25:00 - [45] So many noobs here... Mass alone doesnt matter ,it is mass/inertia for agility and velocity/mass+mwd mass for max speed that matters. So if you check these stats then matar ships are much better,than the other ones , both at speed and agility. So those are saying matar bs will be worst compared to other races bses than before changen are stupids morons.
Gragnor Groove Inc	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:32:00 - [46] Dear CCP Please specify at what range and in what circumstances can a Tempest, Maelstrom or Typhoon defeat ANY Amarr battleship one on one? Please explain why the guerilla warfare race now no longer has the capacity to hit like a sledgehammer and run away? How does the ducttape race end up with battleships that are generally faster, less agile and have more mass than any other race? Just what logic steps where you thinking about making an active tanking race less able to run away from a fight? Taking your world view to the next level; just how is a battleship to survive being bubbled in null sec. Dictor warps into fleet drops bubble, dies and laughs as the enemy fleet warps in, dictates range and slaughters you? The reason MWD's were needed on battleships was to escape large bubbles and dictor bubbles and close with the enemy from a distance. Thus, making dictor bubbles smaller and large bubbles smaller was a big part of the solution. How hard was that to understand? Now, the cloaked dictor on a gate is uber. Jump in, get bubbled and die as you have NO chance of escaping. Simply put, you don't know what you are doing. As for inty's; just plain stupid gentlemen. The only tank they had was speed and you have nerfed it so bad that they cannot survive in Eve any more. Great, the assault frigate revisited. Yet another ship class with no real use.
Lumy Minmatar eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.13 22:40:00 - [47] Little update: Sniping at 100km range with Hail L is just AWESOME. Have to try Maelstrom. Joomla! in EVE - IGB compatible CMS.
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.13 23:26:00 - [48] Originally by: Lumy Little update: Sniping at 100km range with Hail L is just AWESOME. Have to try Maelstrom. You mean with Tremor L?. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.10.13 23:31:00 - [49] Originally by: Gragnor Dear CCP Please specify at what range and in what circumstances can a Tempest, Maelstrom or Typhoon defeat ANY Amarr battleship one on one? Please explain why the guerilla warfare race now no longer has the capacity to hit like a sledgehammer and run away? How does the ducttape race end up with battleships that are generally faster, less agile and have more mass than any other race? Just what logic steps where you thinking about making an active tanking race less able to run away from a fight? Taking your world view to the next level; just how is a battleship to survive being bubbled in null sec. Dictor warps into fleet drops bubble, dies and laughs as the enemy fleet warps in, dictates range and slaughters you? The reason MWD's were needed on battleships was to escape large bubbles and dictor bubbles and close with the enemy from a distance. Thus, making dictor bubbles smaller and large bubbles smaller was a big part of the solution. How hard was that to understand? Now, the cloaked dictor on a gate is uber. Jump in, get bubbled and die as you have NO chance of escaping. Simply put, you don't know what you are doing. As for inty's; just plain stupid gentlemen. The only tank they had was speed and you have nerfed it so bad that they cannot survive in Eve any more. Great, the assault frigate revisited. Yet another ship class with no real use. You dont know what you are talking about ,first you want to compare bses dps/tank wise which wont give a full view what a ship is capable off. Second less the inertia is the better so matar bses will be the most agile and fastest bses. 3rd fleet fight is all about bubble enemy ships try to kill them before they warp out then repeat and try to awoid doing the same to you. Every bs will still need an mwd but this topic is matar bs vs other bs after the change. So matar bs can warp out faster when bubbled compared to other snipers. Cloaked dictor well cloaks should be looked at. Inties hmm currenty sabres/rapiers/vagas/zealots >>>own inties no much reason to fly inties if you can bring one of these.
Lumy Minmatar eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 00:19:00 - [50] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Lumy Little update: Sniping at 100km range with Hail L is just AWESOME. Have to try Maelstrom. You mean with Tremor L?. I mean Hail L. Joomla! in EVE - IGB compatible CMS.

NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 00:32:00 - [51] Originally by: Lumy Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Lumy Little update: Sniping at 100km range with Hail L is just AWESOME. Have to try Maelstrom. You mean with Tremor L?. I mean Hail L. Now wtf. So your saying that you can hit targets at 100 km with Dual 650mm's / 800mm's with Hail L?. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.10.14 00:37:00 - [52] Originally by: Naomi Knight So many noobs here... Mass alone doesnt matter ,it is mass/inertia for agility and velocity/mass+mwd mass for max speed that matters. So if you check these stats then matar ships are much better,than the other ones , both at speed and agility. So those are saying matar bs will be worst compared to other races bses than before changen are stupids morons. Mass/inertia? If the numbers linked in the OP are correct, then you are wrong on Min agi superiority. It's pretty obvious to see by just looking at it, but I'll do the math. phoon: 690.66 temp: 688.67 rokh: 658.12 raven: 640.65 mega: 634.84 mael: 627.88 domi: 606.875 arma: 588.49 apoc: 588.48 What this also shows is that besides screwing phoon/temp on agility, they are quietly making amarr better. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
SickSeven	Posted - 2008.10.14 00:45:00 - [53] I wish I could log on Sisi and discern who is talking out of their arse and who is not in this thread.....
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.14 00:49:00 - [54] Originally by: SickSeven I wish I could log on Sisi and discern who is talking out of their arse and who is not in this thread..... I forged all the data in that link, I'm sorry. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
Korovyov	Posted - 2008.10.14 00:57:00 - [55] Originally by: Idara New BS masses/inertias/base speeds from latest Sisi build Everyone else gets a huge reduction in masses. Abaddon and Ravens are now lighter than the Tempest (the lightest Minnie BS on Sisi). There are only three BS heavier than the Tempest, the Rokh, Scorp and Geddon, with the Typhoon and Maelstrom also being heavier. Yeah, they got more base speed than everyone else, but why in the hell did everyone else get a mass reduction while the minnies get a mass INCREASE?! Come. On. This is almost as bad as the time the Romans killed Jesus. Why does CCP always nerf anything bigger than a shuttle? Why am I being nerfed because someone found another win-button tactic in CCP's easy-as-1-2-3 exploit engine? I'm definitely not going to stick around for this next "miner buff." I did my time in the belts man, I ain't going back!
SickSeven	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:05:00 - [56] Originally by: Idara Originally by: SickSeven I wish I could log on Sisi and discern who is talking out of their arse and who is not in this thread..... I forged all the data in that link, I'm sorry. Paper numbers are nothig to me. I'm talking about how they are actually playing out in game. and people are saying completely opposite things in this thread.
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:08:00 - [57] You'll notice the only person saying much about the Tempest being 'good' is NightmareX. I'll let you figure out the rest on your own. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:14:00 - [58] Originally by: Idara You'll notice the only person saying much about the Tempest being 'good' is NightmareX. I'll let you figure out the rest on your own. If you still mean the Tempest is crap, then why do i get those results here: Link. The Tempest must be good on sisi where the changes are now when i can get results like that. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:21:00 - [59] Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Idara You'll notice the only person saying much about the Tempest being 'good' is NightmareX. I'll let you figure out the rest on your own. If you still mean the Tempest is crap, then why do i get those results here: Link. The Tempest must be good on sisi where the changes are now when i can get results like that. The fundamental flaw in the argument is that Sisi is not TQ. It's like a physics argument that starts with "a sphere in a vacuum". Sisi fights are not representative of much of the PVP in Eve. It often takes place with implants you simply do not have (crystals, slaves, snakes as examples), or using mods you wouldn't risk on TQ (officer/deadspace and even faction). Frequently they revolve around a 1v1, and the results are hardly indictive "real world" performance. I will agree that there are scenarios where a pest is a good (qualification: better than many alternatives) ship. But those scenarios represent a rather small slice of the PVP pie. Why use a Pest when a Torp Raven will outshine the ship in most scenarios? Why use a Maelstrom to snipe when it's outdone (or at least matched) by the much cheaper apoc?
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:22:00 - [60] Edited by: NightmareX on 14/10/2008 01:25:21 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Idara You'll notice the only person saying much about the Tempest being 'good' is NightmareX. I'll let you figure out the rest on your own. If you still mean the Tempest is crap, then why do i get those results here: Link. The Tempest must be good on sisi where the changes are now when i can get results like that. Because you've got 10x the skillpoints of the average player, are running a slave set + 5%/7% implants, and have a clue how to fly your ship. What's funny is that you still managed to lose despite all of that going for you (and your argument that eeeeveryone runs full HG slave sets on Sisi is complete bunk, btw). -Liang Read what i wrote in the link. I said that 65-70% of all i was fighting was using Crystals or Slaves or other implants. But yes, i use a Slave set + a damage implant on sisi. Yes i have a clue on how to fly my ships, but if a newer player also have a clue on how to fly the ships he want to use, he can get LOTS of kill with that. No matter what ship your in, if you have a clue and are smart enough, you can do some really nice things in PVP. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'

Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:29:00 - [61] Originally by: NightmareX Yes i have a clue on how to fly my ships, but if a newer player also have a clue on how to fly the ships he want to use, he can get LOTS of kill with that. No matter what ship your in, if you have a clue and are smart enough, you can do some really nice things in PVP. I think you are still missing a critical point. Yes, in the right hands and the right situation any ship can be dangerous. But the problem is that some ships have a limited set of scenarios in which that may be true. In the worst cases, the right scenario might not even exist. Some ships take little effort to make work in a particular role. The Rokh excells as a fleet sniper - all it needs is railguns, long ranged ammo and a sensor booster. Others (like the maelstrom) require several additional modifications to do the same job as the Rokh. Some ships are simply an uphill battle, and the worst of them present a hill so steep that it might as well be unclimbable. The minmitar lineup is hardly the worst ship for the job most of the time, but you can be certain that it's almost NEVER going to be the best.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:32:00 - [62] Originally by: NightmareX Yes i have a clue on how to fly my ships<---unneeded variable, but if a newer player<---unneeded variable also have a clue on how to fly the ships he want to use, he can get LOTS of kill with that. No matter what ship your in, if you have a clue and are smart enough <--- unneeded variable, you can do some really nice things in PVPno shit. You keep preaching about "if you're smart" or "if you have a clue". Guess what, none of it matters. AT ALL. Anyone with a clue can do anything with any ship. The fact is, if BOTH players have a clue, minmatar ships are often a BAD choice. Nobody's arguing that someone smart with a minnie ship will kill an idiot with a gallente ship. Your argument is based out of pure theoretic. Well what if the minnie player has poor eyesight. What if the gallente player has a heart attack. What if the minnie player doesn't like microwarpdrives. What if the gallente player has a supercomputer. What if the minnie player is really a dev. NONE of it helps compare ships. So spare us all the shit about this one time where you fought this really good blasterthron pilot on sisi. Nobody cares.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:36:00 - [63] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 14/10/2008 01:37:40 Originally by: AstroPhobic NONE of it helps compare ships. So spare us all the shit about this one time where you fought this really good blasterthron pilot on sisi. Nobody cares. Ooo, I care, I care! Wait, no I don't ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:42:00 - [64] Edited by: NightmareX on 14/10/2008 01:44:11 Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: NightmareX Yes i have a clue on how to fly my ships<---unneeded variable, but if a newer player<---unneeded variable also have a clue on how to fly the ships he want to use, he can get LOTS of kill with that. No matter what ship your in, if you have a clue and are smart enough <--- unneeded variable, you can do some really nice things in PVPno shit. You keep preaching about "if you're smart" or "if you have a clue". Guess what, none of it matters. AT ALL. Anyone with a clue can do anything with any ship. The fact is, if BOTH players have a clue, minmatar ships are often a BAD choice. Nobody's arguing that someone smart with a minnie ship will kill an idiot with a gallente ship. Your argument is based out of pure theoretic. Well what if the minnie player has poor eyesight. What if the gallente player has a heart attack. What if the minnie player doesn't like microwarpdrives. What if the gallente player has a supercomputer. What if the minnie player is really a dev. NONE of it helps compare ships. So spare us all the shit about this one time where you fought this really good blasterthron pilot on sisi. Nobody cares. LOL yeah, you just don't want to hear the real truth that a Tempest is really good on sisi. You just try everything to proove me wrong when you really can't, because i have the facts on how the Tempest works from sisi WHERE the changes are now. And for **** sake stop with that oh booohoo it's on sisi so who cares. Now tell me, do you find the speed and web nerf + the mass changes other places than only on sisi?. LOL, keep trying to get a hardcore Minmatar player to think that other Battleship races are better. Dream on dude. Just go away EFT warrior. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:45:00 - [65] The main point it: Why is the race with the 'lightest' and 'fastest' ships, including battleships, suddenly changed to have quite a bit more mass than pretty much every other races BS now? Abaddon lighter than a Tempest? WTF? Megathron 5m kg lighter? WAT? Maybe if having a 90m or 95m kg Tempest would break the game I can see, but if a Raven can be sub-100m KG and lighter than every Minnie BS out there, I can't really swallow that. Also, stop talking about PvPing on Sisi... --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
SickSeven	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:46:00 - [66] Ok, now I'm starting to see. Nightmare is clearly stuck in his/her own little world(sisi). And refuses to see how his/her examples are absolutley meaningless in real life(TQ). Heh, Nightmare, I've seen a kill board where a rifter killed a Temptest. So rifter > tempest right??
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:47:00 - [67] Originally by: Idara Also, stop talking about PvPing on Sisi... So you mean because it's sisi we can't check out the new changes on sisi and then tell others on how the Tempest for example are working in PVP then?. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:47:00 - [68] Edited by: Idara on 14/10/2008 01:48:23 Edited by: Idara on 14/10/2008 01:48:06 Originally by: SickSeven Ok, now I'm starting to see. Nightmare is clearly stuck in his/her own little world(sisi). And refuses to see how his/her examples are absolutley meaningless in real life(TQ). Heh, Nightmare, I've seen a kill board where a rifter killed a Temptest. So rifter > tempest right?? SSSSH they'll nerf the Rifter. While lowering the masses of all the other frigates. Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Idara Also, stop talking about PvPing on Sisi... So you mean because it's sisi we can't check out the new changes on sisi and then tell others on how the Tempest for example are working in PVP then?. You can't discuss pvp-ability based on your average Sisi 1vs1 encounter. Mainly because how it happens on Sisi isn't what will happen on TQ. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:48:00 - [69] Originally by: SickSeven Ok, now I'm starting to see. Nightmare is clearly stuck in his/her own little world(sisi). And refuses to see how his/her examples are absolutley meaningless in real life(TQ). Heh, Nightmare, I've seen a kill board where a rifter killed a Temptest. So rifter > tempest right?? Do you find the speed and web nerf + the mass changes on TQ?. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:54:00 - [70] Originally by: NightmareX LOL yeah, you just don't want to hear the real truth that a Tempest is really good on sisi. This means nothing. It's absolute horse shit and has NOTHING to do with real combat on TQ. You're either fighting pre-setup 1 on 1s, or you're warping into a beacon to fight everyone else. None of this reflects actual combat situations. Quote: You just try everything to proove me wrong when you really can't, because i have the facts on how the Tempest works from sisi WHERE the changes are now. Bullshit. I've given you plenty of numbers, but all you can say is "that's not how it really is, this one time on sisi I killed a megathron and I talked to him after and he had a slave set too". That's not counter evidence, it's absolutely nothing. You want some real evidence, pull some god damn numbers. That's all this game is. It's not your gut feelings or your encounters, every single battle can be broken down into little bitty numbers. You choose to ignore these numbers and therefore choose to ignore every aspect of a fight. Quote: And for ** sake stop with that oh booohoo it's on sisi so who cares. Now tell me, do you find the speed and web nerf + the mass changes other places than only on sisi?. Sisi is not ing TQ. It doesn't model any combat situations that occur in TQ. Minnie BS are shit before the patch and they'll be shit after the patch. They're getting nerfed FFS. Quote: LOL, keep trying to get a hardcore Minmatar player to think that other Battleship races are better. I've given up on you, I seriously think you have mental issues or a huge goddamn ego to hold onto. You're far from a lost cause. The point here is to make sure that nobody else takes you seriously, because all your points are derived from your "feelings" and battles on a test server. Quote:** Dream on dude. Just go away EFT warrior. Kiss my ass. I don't have to take shit from you just because you have longer in-game time. Guess what, I've been around for 4 years too. Guess how many of those years I've flown minmatar. It's all 4. I know where minmatar was compared to the other races. I know where it stands now. If you refuse to accept numerical proof as evidence, you're too dense for this game.

NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:58:00 - [71] Edited by: NightmareX on 14/10/2008 02:01:53 Yadda yadda yadda, your uber fail EFT numbers vs my facts and real experience. Who wins?. And if you say a Tempest is getting crappier on sisi only because it get a little lower speed and a bigger mass just proves that your stupid and ******ed. Because the changes that are on sisi MAKES THE TEMPEST BETTER FFS. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:02:00 - [72] Originally by: NightmareX Yadda yadda yadda, your ~~EFT~~ numbers and 4 years TQ experience vs my ~~facts~~ and ~~real~~TQ experience. Who wins?. I don't know, who does win?
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:03:00 - [73] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: NightmareX Yadda yadda yadda, your ~~EFT~~ numbers and 4 years TQ experience vs my ~~facts~~ and ~~real~~TQ experience. Who wins?. I don't know, who does win? And from those 4 years you have 7 days with experience from Minmatar right?. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:03:00 - [74] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 14/10/2008 02:00:49 Yadda yadda yadda, your EFT numbers vs my facts and real experience. Who wins?. And if you say a Tempest is getting crappier on sisi only because it get a little lower speed and a bigger mass just proves that your stupid and ******ed. Because the changes that are on sisi MAKES THE TEMPEST BETTER FFS. Numbers are. Because you have done nothing to establish your ethos with me. Numbers are verifiable - your story is only that to me. It's a fairtale. Nothing against you or anything; if you want to argue based on ethos you have to make me understand WHY you're a credible source, and the best way to do that? Give me proof and numbers. Otherwise it's just heresay.
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:08:00 - [75] Edited by: NightmareX on 14/10/2008 02:08:14 Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 14/10/2008 02:00:49 Yadda yadda yadda, your EFT numbers vs my facts and real experience. Who wins?. And if you say a Tempest is getting crappier on sisi only because it get a little lower speed and a bigger mass just proves that your stupid and ******ed. Because the changes that are on sisi MAKES THE TEMPEST BETTER FFS. Numbers are. Because you have done nothing to establish your ethos with me. Numbers are verifiable - your story is only that to me. It's a fairtale. Nothing against you or anything; if you want to argue based on ethos you have to make me understand WHY you're a credible source, and the best way to do that? Give me proof and numbers. Otherwise it's just heresay. To say it short. I have never been able to kill that much on sisi in 1 vs 1 fights or in other types of PVP there. After the speed and web nerf + mass changes did hit sisi, i saw an improovment of the Tempest in PVP. And remember, i have been a user of sisi for 4 years soon. So i have tested out more then you can dream of there. Is that enough to say that the Tempest is better in PVP now then it have been before?. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:15:00 - [76] Originally by: NightmareX Is that enough to say that the Tempest is better in PVP now then it have been before?. No. Extraneous variables such as more players or newer players trying out sisi for the first time because of the new changes. Players testing new setups. Trying something different. Even ignoring all of these (which is idiocy at best), all it would mean is the tempest is now better suited for sisi combat. Which for the billionth time, does not reflect actual TQ engagements at all.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:16:00 - [77] So we're still ignoring the possible bugs? Well, go right ahead and flame each other then...
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:19:00 - [78] Edited by: NightmareX on 14/10/2008 02:18:51 Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: NightmareX Is that enough to say that the Tempest is better in PVP now then it have been before?. No. Extraneous variables such as more players or newer players trying out sisi for the first time because of the new changes. Players testing new setups. Trying something different. Even ignoring all of these (which is idiocy at best), all it would mean is the tempest is now better suited for sisi combat. Which for the billionth time, does not reflect actual TQ engagements at all. Please tell me exactly why you can't really compare Sisi combat with TQ combat?. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:20:00 - [79] Edited by: NightmareX on 14/10/2008 02:20:58 Originally by: P'uck So we're still ignoring the possible bugs? Well, go right ahead and flame each other then... Remember that those results i have against all of the other battleships i was fighting was the first time the speed and web nerf + the mass changes was on sisi some months ago. So the hit bugs was not there then if that was you was thinking about. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
P'uck	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:23:00 - [80] And what makes you so sure about it? Could as well be they are stemming from the speed changes and we got the same patch on sisi now. They just took it off for some months as it seems.

AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:24:00 - [81] Originally by: NightmareX Please tell me exactly why you can't really compare Sisi combat with TQ combat?. All fights are pre-arranged or centered around a beacon.
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:24:00 - [82] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 14/10/2008 02:20:58 Originally by: P'uck So we're still ignoring the possible bugs? Well, go right ahead and flame each other then... Remember that those results i have against all of the other battleships i was fighting was the first time the speed and web nerf + the mass changes was on sisi some months ago. So the hit bugs was not there then if that was you was thinking about. Huh? Did you check the mass/speed/inertia changes back during the initial speed nerf release on Sisi? If you can't provide a link to the state of those numbers back then, you really can't compare those fights you had months ago to what's occurred now. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:25:00 - [83] Originally by: P'uck And what makes you so sure about it? Could as well be they are stemming from the speed changes and we got the same patch on sisi now. They just took it off for some months as it seems. I'm 100% sure about it, because like the 1400mm's and Autocannons are now on sisi, you just hit anyways when your log shows that you missed. It was not like that before. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:25:00 - [84] Originally by: NightmareX Please tell me exactly why you can't really compare Sisi combat with TQ combat?. It's the same reason a high school physics equation does not correctly model a real world scenario: the variables are different. In TQ, the fear of loss is the primary variable that leads to the fundamental differences between it and SiSi. Ships are rarely fit with top of the line gear - most opt for easily replaced T2 gear instead. Ships will often blob in TQ because the more friends you have the less likely you are to get personally waxed in a fight. Fear of an unproven design means you face mostly proven cookie-cutter style ships. There is more than that obviously, and while sisi provides an excellent forum for live fire testing of ships and concepts the only real test ground is on TQ. Until it's proven (or disproven) on TQ it's all just theory.
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:26:00 - [85] Edited by: NightmareX on 14/10/2008 02:29:42 Originally by: Idara Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 14/10/2008 02:20:58 Originally by: P'uck So we're still ignoring the possible bugs? Well, go right ahead and flame each other then... Remember that those results i have against all of the other battleships i was fighting was the first time the speed and web nerf + the mass changes was on sisi some months ago. So the hit bugs was not there then if that was you was thinking about. Huh? Did you check the mass/speed/inertia changes back during the initial speed nerf release on Sisi? The Mass/Inertia and speed thing was on sisi some months back, they was 100% the same as they are now, except that the missiles might have been changed now this time on sisi i think. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.14 02:28:00 - [86] Originally by: Idara Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 14/10/2008 02:20:58 Originally by: P'uck So we're still ignoring the possible bugs? Well, go right ahead and flame each other then... Remember that those results i have against all of the other battleships i was fighting was the first time the speed and web nerf + the mass changes was on sisi some months ago. So the hit bugs was not there then if that was you was thinking about. Huh? Did you check the mass/speed/inertia changes back during the initial speed nerf release on Sisi? If you can't provide a link to the state of those numbers back then, you really can't compare those fights you had months ago to what's occurred now. Hard numbers please. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
Mira O'karr Minmatar eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.14 12:07:00 - [87] Edited by: Mira O''karr on 14/10/2008 12:08:43 whatever .. not worth it .. douche is douche
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.14 13:23:00 - [88] Faildara ♥ I don't fly Minnie, but this seems a little silly - Infectious -
Shinta Kobi Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:02:00 - [89] Edited by: Shinta Kobi on 14/10/2008 18:03:17 If I was looking for an easy ship to PvP with, I would not go with Minmatar at all. However, any easy ship to fly is just not fun. I fly a Maelstrom BECAUSE it is not easy to operate. It sucks as an AC boat, it's only good with arty in groups(sniper if trained up), and it is only as fast as you maneuver it. Torps or cruise missles are about pointless on it, due to no good bonus to enhance it. RoF and shield boosting are the only bonuses on it. It's signature makes it easy to hit at long range. Yes they are more expensive than they are worth, but for Minmatar BS's, they can take a beating, even if someone is skilled average for operation. For me, that's what make this ship fun.
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.14 20:57:00 - [90] Checking the base speed of a Nidhoggur and seeing it's faster than a few BSs (90m/s), I'm hoping that some...person...thought that it'd be fun to mess with the Minnie BS stats in the wrong direction. At least that's what I'm telling myself for now. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara

Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.10.15 01:43:00 - [91] Not sure how too look at this, astro you might have a better angle on this. Looking at the negatives vs positives of this is a bit confusing till i try it myself. 1. Increased mass on a BS will make it harder to slow down with a web once it's reached full speed. I can see this as an advantage, HOWEVER. 2. Rarely do you have time to increase your speed after you jump thru a gate or come out of warp, does the increased base speed help negate this? 3. If the increased base speed does in fact help you get up to speed quicker OR if it makes the minny line of ships keep pace with the other classes, this will make them harder to slow down over all. All this is moot if point 2 is not true. I can see this being a good change IF and ONLY IF the relative acceleration stays in the favor of the minny boats. (Mainly the phoon since it's the only one worth a crap.)
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.15 02:31:00 - [92] Originally by: Megan Maynard Not sure how too look at this, astro you might have a better angle on this. I liked you better when you disagreed with what I said. Quote: Looking at the negatives vs positives of this is a bit confusing till i try it myself. 1. Increased mass on a BS will make it harder to slow down with a web once it's reached full speed. I can see this as an advantage, HOWEVER. 2. Rarely do you have time to increase your speed after you jump thru a gate or come out of warp, does the increased base speed help negate this? 3. If the increased base speed does in fact help you get up to speed quicker OR if it makes the minny line of ships keep pace with the other classes, this will make them harder to slow down over all. All this is moot if point 2 is not true. I can see this being a good change IF and ONLY IF the relative acceleration stays in the favor of the minny boats. (Mainly the phoon since it's the only one worth a crap.) Basically I see it like this, assuming two ships for ease. There's two types of combat. Webbed or not webbed. Even at 60% speed reduction, one of the ships is geared towards short range combat (we'll call this blasters or torps for ease), and will have the tools or mods necessary to keep opponents there. Increased mass only insures that the short range ship has time to react to the opponent's attempts to flee. We all know minnie boats don't have the tools necessary to compete at this range. Two ships geared for ranged combat (say autocannons, because they cant compete at short range, and pulse). Increased mass means less agility and acceleration for minnie BS, giving them less of a chance to "catch" any ships that would be beneficial to close distance on (though I have extremely conflicted opinions on what range minnie is "good" at). They're outclassed at range. However this is all 1 on 1 nonsense. In say a gang fight, it's important to have damage at every range or the tools necessary to close range to do the appropriate damage. The current webs allow blaster ships (and to some extent the hurricane - what the tempest SHOULD be as a BS) to trap down opponents and unleash hell. Autocannons are supposed to have versatility in that falloff allows them to fight at all ranges. HOWEVER, slower (accelerating) ships mean long range ships keep their range and short range ships keep their range. Whatever little range control minnie possesed before (kiting megathrons? please) is now effectively null, post patch.
Tefkros The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.10.15 06:08:00 - [93] On Tranquility, I am one of those that love the Tempest, and think of it as one of the dirtiest battleships in EVE. I totally disagree with the people saying that it sucks. Well it sucks in direct comparisons, but then again you don¦t take an armor tanked Vagabond loaded with Hail in web range of a Deimos, do you? The other day I easily beat a max-skilled and one of the best Megathron pilots I know. Various other Amarr battleships flown by competent pilots suffered the same fate, and I¦m confident I can take on any other BS, except maybe some Ravens and a few certain fits. And my skills are, at best, suspicious. But the way I fly the Tempest is never a balls to the wall slugfest. This is what Amarr and Gallente battleships are for. Agility and intense cap warfare win the fight every time for me (and this is one of the cases that its capless weapons play a VERY important role on the outcome). I never play on SiSi, but if what is there gets implemented, then the Tempest will REALLY SUCK. The only thing it has going for it on Tranquility is its superior speed and agility, and the fact that it can be fit in some very dirty ways. It can¦t tank and can¦t gank well enough to justify a mass increase.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.15 10:44:00 - [94] Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 13/10/2008 21:36:19 Originally by: Liang Nuren Nightmare I think we've all established that you have a really poor sense of judgment. You think things are "fine" if there's a 0.1% chance of you having parity with another ship/race.... You're dead wrong there, and you're dead wrong here. I will admit that the Pest makes out better than blaster ships... but they're just getting nerfed so hard they'll never see the light of day again. -Liang This is the ships i have been fighting in my Tempest on sisi with the speed and web nerf + the mass changes. 14 x Megathron. Won over 10. 7 x Raven. Won over 5. 5 x Armageddon. Won over 3. 2 x Apocalypse. Won over both. 1 x Rokh. Won over it. That ship was tanked like a bad mofo, he had 4x Heavy Nos'es on me. So i took like 160k damage on him before he died. Capless weapons and mostly passive tank 4tw on the Tempest. 4 x Maelstrom. Won over all 4. 2 x Dominix. Won over 1. 2 x Hyperion. Won over 1. And 65-70% of all those players i have been fighting on sisi have had Crystals or Slaves or other weapon implants on. And that's the reason i always use Slaves and other damage implants etc on sisi. Now tell me, is that a bad result to be done in a Tempest?. I would say NO. And don't come with that oooohhh most of them are probably newbs. No, most of them have been really experienced and old players. So yeah Liang, i think you have a point by the Blasters on sisi now. I had the Megathron Federate Issue on sisi when the same changes was on sisi earlier. And i know what your talking about. hwo much you kill or not on SISI is worthless on that regard. Minamtar BS are beign nerfed period. Jsut look at numbers. Nothing can spin taht out. Numbers of kills may change doe to a trillion othe r reasons, like a large influx of noob into test server to see the changes. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.15 11:31:00 - [95] You can't just look at the mass alone. (Sorted from most to least agile for Sisi values) New base agility figures: Tier 1 Scorpion TQ: 15.525 Sisi: 15.022 Dominix TQ: 16.275 Sisi: 15.536 Typhoon TQ: 15.5 Sisi: 15.54 Armageddon TQ: 17.05 Sisi: 16.306 Tier 2 Megathron TQ: 15.8875 Sisi: 15.252 Raven TQ: 15.95 Sisi: 15.3915 Tempest TQ: 15.8875 Sisi: 15.495 Apocalypse TQ: 16.6625 Sisi: 16.0215 Tier 3 Hyperion TQ: 15.8875 Sisi: 15.531 Rokh TQ: 18 Sisi: 16.848 Abaddon TQ: 18.2125 Sisi: 17.028 Maelstrom TQ: 17.825 Sisi: 17.094 Typhoon: only bs that loses agility?! Maelstrom: wtf, Minmatar more brick than Amarr?!
Stork DK Minmatar Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2008.10.15 11:42:00 - [96] We didnt want those BS anyway. Srsly wtf ccp? -----
Elena Morin'staal Minmatar Tau Online Explorator Corp	Posted - 2008.10.15 13:14:00 - [97] For sale, one maelstrom. Kind and loving owner, in top notch condition.
Toolivus Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.15 13:26:00 - [98] Edited by: Toolivus on 15/10/2008 13:26:17 Part of me still believes that these stats are like they are because of an as yet unmentioned change to projectiles that will make them balanced again. The other part of me has already poured the bourbon out onto the street corner and is still fighting with the hangover from finishing the rest of the bottle.
Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.15 14:21:00 - [99] Aside from the forums, is there a way of getting CCP to notice this before they actually implement this ingame?
El Yatta Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.10.15 15:04:00 - [100] NightmareX, you do realise that gun tracking/range is fubared on sisi, right? Your tests are invalid as all turret weapons hit for good damage at any range. Its a bug. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces

Lumy Minmatar eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.15 15:42:00 - [101] I'm just wondering, how did NightmareX manage to lose to a raven. Day or so ago, missiles were doing zero damage. Joomla! in EVE - IGB compatible CMS.
Makavelia	Posted - 2008.10.15 18:26:00 - [102] Bahh, another game where ive manedged to pick the side who gets but monkeyd by the developers I thought this nano fix was intended to bring bs's back into the game? im mainly pvp but this has gote hurt the mission runers on route to those 100k gates... rather u than me
Grarr Dexx Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.15 18:38:00 - [103] CCP hates abaddons
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2008.10.15 18:53:00 - [104] I was a supporter of the speed nerf initially. Mainly because I thought it was stupid that having trained Rapier/Huginn I was still watching nano*s burn back through gates even after fitting sensor boosters and multiple webs on my Matar recons. Hopeful I was that CCP might take many of the excellent suggestions generated on the forums for how to rebalance speed. Should have known. I fly Amarr and Minmatar mainly. The NOS nerf was not done right, killed the Pilgrim and made the Curse an eh. The ECM nerf was needed (i used to fit them and lol at their op'd effects), but was then followed with an over the top rebuff on Caldari ecm bonuses. The damp nerf was also needed, but no rebuff on the Gallente damp ships killed the Gallente recons. So now I am left worrying about my favorite Rapiers and Phoons. The web nerf that is paired with this speed nerf is too strong. And this stupid penalizing Matar BSs with added mass is so incomprehensibly stupid I don't know where the ** they get some of the stupid game designers. I had hoped that the first go round on the test server changes and the resulting missile and blaster problems would have convinced CCP that they should go back to the beginning and reevalute the whole method for rebalancing speed. If only they would. Unfotunately I expect we will see this STUPID MASS ADDITION TO MATAR BS as part of THIS STUPID ATTEMPT AT REBALANCING SPEED. CCP STOP. GO BACK TO SQUARE ONE AND TRY AGAIN. READ THE MANY SUGGESTIONS THAT WERE OFFERED. LOOK AT SMALL INCREMENTAL CHANGES. I shout because it's all that's left. I will not threaten to quit. This is still the greatest online game out there. However, it will become much less so in the near future I expect. Hopefully, someone in CCP will wake up and not let it fully become Caldari Online. Falcon alts and Ravens, Rokhs, Scorpions and Drakes for everyone who does not want to be poor and/or a wreck. (I sadly already have made mine) A plague of Achura on you all it seems.
Traderboz	Posted - 2008.10.15 19:47:00 - [105] Quote: CCP STOP. GO BACK TO SQUARE ONE AND TRY AGAIN. READ THE MANY SUGGESTIONS THAT WERE OFFERED. LOOK AT SMALL INCREMENTAL CHANGES. I said that when the changes first were announced. I said that a week after, and a week after that. I haven't seen any signs of CCP doing something intelligent to address the problem and scrapping their current plans. I doubt we're going to see that. At this point I don't really care that much, but that's mostly because I've discovered Warhammer. At least at this point, the Warhammer dev's understand their own game, which is more than you can say for the EVE devs and their HG snakes. I do have to say though, a Minmatar BS nerf is exactly what this patch needed to satisfy the lulzfactor. IMO they should also throw a nerf into large artillery, just for good measure.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.15 21:05:00 - [106] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/10/2008 21:05:48 Originally by: Traderboz Quote: CCP STOP. GO BACK TO SQUARE ONE AND TRY AGAIN. READ THE MANY SUGGESTIONS THAT WERE OFFERED. LOOK AT SMALL INCREMENTAL CHANGES. I said that when the changes first were announced. I said that a week after, and a week after that. I haven't seen any signs of CCP doing something intelligent to address the problem and scrapping their current plans. I doubt we're going to see that. At this point I don't really care that much, but that's mostly because I've discovered Warhammer. At least at this point, the Warhammer dev's understand their own game, which is more than you can say for the EVE devs and their HG snakes. I do have to say though, a Minmatar BS nerf is exactly what this patch needed to satisfy the lulzfactor. IMO they should also throw a nerf into large artillery, just for good measure. Yeah I'm all but ready to drop 3 30-32M SP Eve characters on the floor between this ****ation Eve is calling a patch and the sheer amount of fun I have in Warhammer. Order > Dest, btw.. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
Traderboz	Posted - 2008.10.15 21:44:00 - [107] Ew Order? Say it ain't so. The one upside order has is that there are fewer of them, and so their queue times are blazing fast. Oh, and they have those damn bright wizards, but if and when those get nerfed, as they need to be, lol, then destruction for the win. And simply put, we look cooler.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.15 21:58:00 - [108] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/10/2008 22:01:17 Originally by: Traderboz Ew Order? Say it ain't so. The one upside order has is that there are fewer of them, and so their queue times are blazing fast. Oh, and they have those damn bright wizards, but if and when those get nerfed, as they need to be, lol, then destruction for the win. And simply put, we look cooler. I dunno... the Destro classes are all pretty badass simply on the numbers - they didn't need the superior looks. I tried tank but it wasn't my bag... then I tried DPS. Muuuch better. Been running with 2x shadow warriors (me and another guy from Eve) and it's epically fun to primary people while "cloaked". The shadow warriors are almost outdamaging bright wizards. ;-) Was looking at it and between the two of us we've been taking down squishies in sub 6 seconds pretty regularly... -Liang Ed: And my favorite thing is the queue times being so darn fast. You should try it on Order... tons of fun, and if you've got a good team you can steamroll people over and over. ;-) -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.15 22:57:00 - [109] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/10/2008 22:01:17 Originally by: Traderboz Ew Order? Say it ain't so. The one upside order has is that there are fewer of them, and so their queue times are blazing fast. Oh, and they have those damn bright wizards, but if and when those get nerfed, as they need to be, lol, then destruction for the win. And simply put, we look cooler. I dunno... the Destro classes are all pretty badass simply on the numbers - they didn't need the superior looks. I tried tank but it wasn't my bag... then I tried DPS. Muuuch better. Been running with 2x shadow warriors (me and another guy from Eve) and it's epically fun to primary people while "cloaked". The shadow warriors are almost outdamaging bright wizards. ;-) Was looking at it and between the two of us we've been taking down squishies in sub 6 seconds pretty regularly... -Liang Ed: And my favorite thing is the queue times being so darn fast. You should try it on Order... tons of fun, and if you've got a good team you can steamroll people over and over. ;-) I've pretty much tried every class in the game at this point and my favorites are (in order) Witch Hunter (shooting people in the face is great) Shadow Warrior (Skrimish + DPS is a hell of a lot better than stationary DPS) Chosen (The best tank in the game as far as I'm concerned)
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.15 23:00:00 - [110] I want to try WAR... there a free demo out? The cinematic trailer was . I CBA to pay ~500mil per GTC, and grinding ISK has always been the killer for me.

Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.15 23:03:00 - [111] Originally by: AstroPhobic I want to try WAR... there a free demo out? The cinematic trailer was . I CBA to pay ~500mil per GTC, and grinding ISK has always been the killer for me. No not that I know of. I know I forked over the cash for mine based on some friends' recommendation. It's tons of fun and I really like the PVP... honestly, I can't see myself coming back to Eve ATM. I'll keep a skill training for now "just in case". -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.15 23:06:00 - [112] Originally by: AstroPhobic I want to try WAR... there a free demo out? The cinematic trailer was . I CBA to pay ~500mil per GTC, and grinding ISK has always been the killer for me. No demo for now; you have to pay for the game. It's worth the price of admission I think. The PVP is solid, the balance issues are tolerable and PVE is not nearly as soul crushing. In fact, you never need PVE if you don't want to - you can level just fine in PVP (and often you level faster in PVP than PVE).
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.15 23:09:00 - [113] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: AstroPhobic I want to try WAR... there a free demo out? The cinematic trailer was . I CBA to pay ~500mil per GTC, and grinding ISK has always been the killer for me. No demo for now; you have to pay for the game. It's worth the price of admission I think. The PVP is solid, the balance issues are tolerable and PVE is not nearly as soul crushing. In fact, you never need PVE if you don't want to - you can level just fine in PVP (and often you level faster in PVP than PVE). Especially if you're Order. ;-) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.15 23:09:00 - [114] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: AstroPhobic I want to try WAR... there a free demo out? The cinematic trailer was . I CBA to pay ~500mil per GTC, and grinding ISK has always been the killer for me. No demo for now; you have to pay for the game. It's worth the price of admission I think. The PVP is solid, the balance issues are tolerable and PVE is not nearly as soul crushing. In fact, you never need PVE if you don't want to - you can level just fine in PVP (and often you level faster in PVP than PVE). Excellent. I shall definitely give it a spin then. Perhaps meet you guys ingame.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.15 23:37:00 - [115] Might give it a spin. So, Iron rock? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.15 23:42:00 - [116] Originally by: Cpt Branko Might give it a spin. So, Iron rock? Yeah hit me up, we'll go rumble some T1s tonight. :) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.15 23:57:00 - [117] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Cpt Branko Might give it a spin. So, Iron rock? Yeah hit me up, we'll go rumble some T1s tonight. :) -Liang 3hrs left on the download. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.16 00:03:00 - [118] Originally by: Cpt Branko 3hrs left on the download. Cool, I'll try to be logging in then. send me a tell (/t Vanesca hi) and I'll hook you up with some vent details -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.16 00:05:00 - [119] Epic derail. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.16 00:05:00 - [120] Epic derail. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara

Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.16 00:07:00 - [121] Originally by: Idara Epic derail. Funny you should call it a derail when in fact something like this is almost a "railroaded conclusion" of the game "balance" changes that CCP is doing. If I've got to learn a new game all over again, it might as well be one that's fun, has a decent UI, and whose PVE doesn't make me want to crush kittens. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.16 00:07:00 - [122] Originally by: Idara Epic derail. Funny you should call it a derail when in fact something like this is almost a "railroaded conclusion" of the game "balance" changes that CCP is doing. If I've got to learn a new game all over again, it might as well be one that's fun, has a decent UI, and whose PVE doesn't make me want to crush kittens. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.16 00:11:00 - [123] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Idara Epic derail. Funny you should call it a derail when in fact something like this is almost a "railroaded conclusion" of the game "balance" changes that CCP is doing. If I've got to learn a new game all over again, it might as well be one that's fun, has a decent UI, and whose PVE doesn't make me want to crush kittens. -Liang I lol'd. I don't have time to try it tonight, however I expect a full report from Branko by tomorrow.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.16 00:11:00 - [124] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Idara Epic derail. Funny you should call it a derail when in fact something like this is almost a "railroaded conclusion" of the game "balance" changes that CCP is doing. If I've got to learn a new game all over again, it might as well be one that's fun, has a decent UI, and whose PVE doesn't make me want to crush kittens. -Liang I lol'd. I don't have time to try it tonight, however I expect a full report from Branko by tomorrow.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2008.10.16 00:43:00 - [125] Sadly I couldn't find an appropriate class in WAR that corresponds to the Minmatar race, I tried but no matter where I looked, it seems unlike CCP, Mythic makes sure there ISN'T a bastard read headed step child for them to nerf, beat, nerf, beat, ignore, beat, nerf and down right treat like complete and utter disdain to the point of been insulting to their user base. Basically I had to choose a well balanced race/class that was competent in PvP, sort of takes the skill out of it when your not prenerfed for the heck of it. So if your Chaos and on an Oceanic server and getting thrashed by a Witch Hunter, then HI!
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.16 01:24:00 - [126] I created a new order alt to play with all the cool kids. Pandarus on the same server as liang and presumably banco shortly.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.16 01:53:00 - [127] So, witch hunter or shadow warrior? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.16 01:54:00 - [128] Edited by: Derek Sigres on 16/10/2008 01:56:09 They have thier pros and cons. Witch hunter is a bit more difficult to be effective with. They do gobs of damage but you're expected to be at point blank range to do it in. Shadow Warrior on the other hand has incredible reach and is generally useful against anything that you can touch with an arrow. I prefer Witch Hunter myself but I figured I'd give shadow warrior another go anyway.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.10.16 02:21:00 - [129] I think you have to avoid the mass drama. Of course though any dude thats trained Minny the last year feels like a arse. That arse though can with in a pinch train another great race to battle with!
EFT Warrior	Posted - 2008.10.16 04:53:00 - [130] So this annoying rogue STUNLOCKED me to death seriously for 2 friggin minutes I couldn't do a thing I trinket out of Kidney Shot he blinds me and bandages/recloaked and starts his stunlock all over again WTF BLIZZARD NERF THIS SHTI!!111

goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.16 05:29:00 - [131] Wtf does the abaddon go 60 after trimarks?
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.10.16 08:23:00 - [132] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/10/2008 21:05:48 Originally by: Traderboz Quote: CCP STOP. GO BACK TO SQUARE ONE AND TRY AGAIN. READ THE MANY SUGGESTIONS THAT WERE OFFERED. LOOK AT SMALL INCREMENTAL CHANGES. I said that when the changes first were announced. I said that a week after, and a week after that. I haven't seen any signs of CCP doing something intelligent to address the problem and scrapping their current plans. I doubt we're going to see that. At this point I don't really care that much, but that's mostly because I've discovered Warhammer. At least at this point, the Warhammer dev's understand their own game, which is more than you can say for the EVE devs and their HG snakes. I do have to say though, a Minmatar BS nerf is exactly what this patch needed to satisfy the lulzfactor. IMO they should also throw a nerf into large artillery, just for good measure. Yeah I'm all but ready to drop 3 30-32M SP Eve characters on the floor between this ****ation Eve is calling a patch and the sheer amount of fun I have in Warhammer**. Order > Dest, btw.. -Liang That good eh? My mates who orginally got me into Eve nearly 5 years ago all reckon it's ace and keep badgering me to join (they all left Eve 1-2 years ago pretty much)... I'm still kind of loyal to Eve, though, if they kill off the Blasterthron thats 73M SP of not-so-much-fun-anymore... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Cornette Gallente Black Screen of Death HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.10.16 11:36:00 - [133] Warhammer Online - I was gonna wait and see how it pans out before I try another online game. Now that CCP seems hellbent to roll out this speed nerf of everything that moves and make the game stale I'm thinking of dropping my 3 EVE accounts and WAR seem to be a nice replacement, it looks fun, fresh and exiting. Did I say that it looks FUN? As for EVE... CCP can probably continue to sucker in new people for a few more years with fluff and pr-bullshit before more people sees through the crap and subscriptions start to take a serious drop, at which time they probably sell the company to EA.
Shinta Kobi Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.16 13:23:00 - [134] Warhammer = WoW with better PvP, but crappy PvE. WoW = Latest patch changed the game. EVE = Subtle changes that keep the game stumbling along.
Traderboz	Posted - 2008.10.16 13:45:00 - [135] Bastards are hanging me out to dry and rolling order? For shame. Oh well, maybe they'll do cross-server scenarios in the future and I can hunt you squishy archers and witch hunters down.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.16 14:54:00 - [136] Originally by: Traderboz Bastards are hanging me out to dry and rolling order? For shame. Oh well, maybe they'll do cross-server scenarios in the future and I can hunt you squishy archers and witch hunters down. Nothing says you can't have an Order alt. I have a desctuction alt on your server.
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.10.16 15:42:00 - [137] \o/ As a blaster Rokh pilot I'm happy to see the mass reductino, that ship is sooooooooo slllloooooowwwww in turning. Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.16 16:40:00 - [138] Originally by: Traderboz Bastards are hanging me out to dry and rolling order? For shame. Oh well, maybe they'll do cross-server scenarios in the future and I can hunt you squishy archers and witch hunters down. You're just jealous of my 20 second queue time... and I look forward to rocking your world. We were running with three shadow warriors last night and were instavolleying all the Destro squishies... :P On vent it sounded like: "Shamuaun, Magus back left" "On it", "Confirm" 3s later: "He's down, Zarbut, orc on the healers" "On it", "Got him" "Snared", "Acid" "Down." ... Destro was getting romped like 500 v 64 on Norden ;-) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.16 17:31:00 - [139] Edited by: Derek Sigres on 16/10/2008 17:33:45 Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 16/10/2008 17:01:16 Originally by: Traderboz Bastards are hanging me out to dry and rolling order? For shame. Oh well, maybe they'll do cross-server scenarios in the future and I can hunt you squishy archers and witch hunters down. You're just jealous of my 20 second queue time... and I look forward to rocking your world. We were running with three shadow warriors last night and were instavolleying all the Destro squishies... :P On vent it sounded like: "Shamuaun, Magus back left" "On it", "Confirm" 3s later: "He's down, Zarbut, orc on the healers" "On it", "Got him" "Snared", "Acid" "Down." ... Destro was getting romped like 500 / 64 on Norden ;-) -Liang Ed: We didn't win every time though... when we lost it was usually something like 475 / 500. That said, Warhammer has a tremendous capacity for team playing... and you won't get the everloving hell blobbed out of you which is nice. Eve Fleet Warfare meets WAR RvR. God help the enemies of order. That being said, on the Core servers there isn't much of a problem with the "blob" per se. On the Open RvR server my main is on, any time you set foot into the RvR zone you can rest assured there is a group of Chaos guys 10 levels higher just waiting to come out and crush any hope of doing any good. Luckily, core servers prevent such atorcities by enforcing the level cap. I myself from time to time would run into the Chaos noob zone as a level 16 Witch Hunter and screw with the people innocently trying to run a public quest. It was so unfair the game wouldn't give me experience or reknown even after I killed a dozen level 3's. I think the only way to cap this story is with the trusty .
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2008.10.16 17:59:00 - [140] Looked at Warhammer, yuck. Not for me. Sci Fi > Fantasy I'd rather limp along in brick nerfed falcon jammed phoons, and whine on the forums here about the devs stupidity in adding mass and turning the game into Caldari online. Hope you guys have fun though. If CCP rectifies their mistakes please come back.

Traderboz	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:44:00 - [141] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 16/10/2008 17:01:16 Originally by: Traderboz Bastards are hanging me out to dry and rolling order? For shame. Oh well, maybe they'll do cross-server scenarios in the future and I can hunt you squishy archers and witch hunters down. You're just jealous of my 20 second queue time... and I look forward to rocking your world. We were running with three shadow warriors last night and were instavolleying all the Destro squishies... :P On vent it sounded like: "Shamuaun, Magus back left" "On it", "Confirm" 3s later: "He's down, Zarbut, orc on the healers" "On it", "Got him" "Snared", "Acid" "Down." ... Destro was getting romped like 500 / 64 on Norden ;-) -Liang Ed: We didn't win every time though... when we lost it was usually something like 475 / 500. That said, Warhammer has a tremendous capacity for team playing... and you won't get the everloving hell blobbed out of you which is nice. Yes, I do have queue-envy. T_T The battlegrounds go back and forth though. We win most t3 on my server, except alliance mostly queue for Tor since they all have lame knockbacks and it is filled with lava, haha. Still, with good teams, I've shut out alliance on Tor 500-0 where they didn't even kill one of us, hehe. If and when they nerf bright wizards damage a bit (the Amarr of the game) and buff Magus (the tempest), it'll definitely be a tough sell for me to roll Order. And let's face it. My Marauder definitely looks cooler.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.16 22:59:00 - [142] Originally by: Traderboz Yes, I do have queue-envy. T_T The battlegrounds go back and forth though. We win most t3 on my server, except alliance mostly queue for Tor since they all have lame knockbacks and it is filled with lava, haha. Still, with good teams, I've shut out alliance on Tor 500-0 where they didn't even kill one of us, hehe. If and when they nerf bright wizards damage a bit (the Amarr of the game) and buff Magus (the tempest), it'll definitely be a tough sell for me to roll Order. And let's face it. My Marauder definitely looks cooler. The knockback attacks are one of the most awesomely overpowered things in gaming. I mean, sure they don't really do any damage and most people don't bother getting to a good angle before using them but that doesn't limit their potential. Even on Nordenwatch, where there's nothing around that's going to hurt you, if you simply take a step to the side and THEN knock the offending marauder/witch elf/Chosen off the cliff into the sea it takes them out of the fight for several minutes while they desperately try to find the 3 foot wide section of beach you can actually walk up. On the subject of looks though, the Marauder is a fary cry from the Chosen in my book. When you see a reasonably high level chosen wandering about radiating evil you get the definite feeling that they're badass. All a marauder has is an arm that becomes a sword. And I think the Witch Hunter looks pretty sweet in an "evil puritan" sort of way.
Traderboz	Posted - 2008.10.16 23:47:00 - [143] Early on we look a bit lame, but later we look pretty mean. Sort of a barbarian look to the class with the mix of horned/spikey helm and shoulders, and the rest leather, all riding you down on our mutated black horse. Check the concept art, there's more going on than the arm, hehe.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.17 00:06:00 - [144] Sounds so cool... but 50 bucks PLUS subscription fees is kind of lame tbh. I need a job
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.17 02:03:00 - [145] Originally by: AstroPhobic Sounds so cool... but 50 bucks PLUS subscription fees is kind of lame tbh. I need a job Software developer by chance? -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.17 02:08:00 - [146] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: AstroPhobic Sounds so cool... but 50 bucks PLUS subscription fees is kind of lame tbh. I need a job Software developer by chance? -Liang Negative. I was thinking more of working the counter at a local coffee shop or bagging groceries
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.17 02:10:00 - [147] Originally by: AstroPhobic Negative. I was thinking more of working the counter at a local coffee shop or bagging groceries Ah. Well, in that case... can't help you much unless you live near me. ;-) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.17 03:25:00 - [148] Originally by: AstroPhobic Sounds so cool... but 50 bucks PLUS subscription fees is kind of lame tbh. I need a job While it it somewhat lame in comparison to the great deals of Eve (or WoW I suppose), it's basically the standard for MMO releases these days. It should be noted that your fifty bucks does pay for the first month. I have no idea what it costs per month.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.17 03:39:00 - [149] It's quite awesome, really, but I can't play on US servers where you ****ers are, it appears. Also, Astro, you really want to try it out, loads of fun. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Jordan Musgrat H A V O C Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.17 07:35:00 - [150] Started a thread related to this, I know I'm pimping myself out but whatever. Take a look if you don't like the current changes... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=899552 ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...

Veryez	Posted - 2008.10.17 07:37:00 - [151] It is rather ironic that the people who usually have the best solutions for minmatar problems, have come to the conclusion that the best solution to the heavy handed speed nerf is to find a better game, and yes I'm seriously looking at warhammer too. While I agree in principle with the need to slow ships down, the nerf to webs and the nerf of large guns will probably ruin eve for me. I will never agree that frigate-sized ships should be immune to battleships. All ships should have the ability to fight either close or long range, obviously some will be better at one or the other, but removing close range fighting from battleships (except against other battleships) is a horrible design decision. For 3 years I speced in minmatar, and was stunned at how well my 1 year old amarr alt performed. Unless you've flown both races, and others for that matter, you really don't get a feeling for the imbalance(s) in this game. EFT can show you the numbers, but that isn't enough, performance on TQ is where the difference becomes tangible, and I found it to be noticible. I'll probably stick it out for a bit and see if the mess I saw on sisi comes to TQ unchanged, then make my decision. To those who have some faith that CCP will get around to balancing Minmatar (and/or gal after this next expansion), you are just fooling yourselves. To balance the game would require you to either play it (meaning all races, under all situations) or listen to the people who do, CCP has never demonstrated either ability. I love Eve, it's a great game, but significantly changing the combat dynamics for a significant number of ships isn't going to win this game any new fans. I believe SWG tried something close to that.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.17 08:44:00 - [152] Edited by: Grimpak on 17/10/2008 08:44:16 Originally by: Derek Sigres Chosen (The best tank in the game as far as I'm concerned) also: zomg AOE debuff auras (that buff you and your party that is in range), cool looks. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:54:00 - [153] I refuse to believe this will make it to TQ. I mean, even CCP wouldn't be this stupid.
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:59:00 - [154] Originally by: Space Fascist But capless weapons. Also, you'll be able to walk in stations! V e r t i c a l l y ! Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:15:00 - [155] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Idara You'll notice the only person saying much about the Tempest being 'good' is NightmareX. I'll let you figure out the rest on your own. If you still mean the Tempest is crap, then why do i get those results here: Link. The Tempest must be good on sisi where the changes are now when i can get results like that. Because you've got 10x the skillpoints of the average player, are running a slave set + 5%/7% implants, and have a clue how to fly your ship. What's funny is that you still managed to lose despite all of that going for you (and your argument that eeeeveryone runs full HG slave sets on Sisi is complete bunk, btw). -Liang Ummm about the he knows how to fly ship part... are we talking about the same NightmareX that used to be in GW? (theoretically anyway) Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.17 15:00:00 - [156] Edited by: NightmareX on 17/10/2008 15:03:08 Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Idara You'll notice the only person saying much about the Tempest being 'good' is NightmareX. I'll let you figure out the rest on your own. If you still mean the Tempest is crap, then why do i get those results here: Link. The Tempest must be good on sisi where the changes are now when i can get results like that. Because you've got 10x the skillpoints of the average player, are running a slave set + 5%/7% implants, and have a clue how to fly your ship. What's funny is that you still managed to lose despite all of that going for you (and your argument that eeeeveryone runs full HG slave sets on Sisi is complete bunk, btw). -Liang Ummm about the he knows how to fly ship part... are we talking about the same NightmareX that used to be in GW? (theoretically anyway) Yes i know how to fly and fit the ships i use, and yes, i'm still the original owner of the character. I haven't been able to reply anywhere on the internet the last 3 days because i have been at the hospital for 3+ days now. Yes i have got the permission to go home this weekend from the hospital, so from Monday again, i wont be able to respond to anyone here for some days. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.17 15:35:00 - [157] Originally by: Sokratesz I refuse to believe this will make it to TQ. I mean, even CCP wouldn't be this stupid. ...
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2008.10.17 17:10:00 - [158] Phoon heavier than a Raven?! WTFCCPWTFCCPWTFCCPWTFCCPWTFCCP
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.17 21:02:00 - [159] Let's keep this visible, at least until they're changed. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
Rusty Sprocket	Posted - 2008.10.18 00:01:00 - [160] Would it not be easier to just apply a max velocity that actually means something? ie. When the ship reaches a certain speed, let's just propose 10x its base speed it begins to take ship and module damage. No more nano issues, no imbalanced speed issues, no nerfs to modules, just a simple across the board speed limit based on the base speed of a ship.

Knawt Ongrid	Posted - 2008.10.19 04:07:00 - [161] Are the Minnie BS still heavier than a Raven on the test server?
Presidio Hug Nutz	Posted - 2008.10.19 04:17:00 - [162] lol apoc the biggest battleship has the smallest mass. WTF? -
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.19 04:28:00 - [163] Originally by: Presidio lol apoc the biggest battleship has the smallest mass. WTF? The what now? But yeah. I find the reduction to the Raven's mass to be the most puke-worthy. Why? Because the damn ship is already rather impossible to deal with as a Cruiser- or Frigate-oriented pilot, and even some BCs and BSes, unless you blob. Not to mention it's Caldari to start with, and thus should be one of the heaviest hunks of crap out there, if not the heaviest. Seriously. BSes do not need a mass 'fix' to begin with. Why the Hell?!
Miranele	Posted - 2008.10.19 11:14:00 - [164] well comon, Have you looked on the ships ?: Raven is slim and aerodynamic ( not that it matters in space but :P ) Ph00n is massive vertical silo . :P Well serius though, its fun to see that caldari bs get some speed. But to roob the only thing that makes minnie's a little big good. Thats just harsh, Hope it aint permanent. Or i hope they got a boost for minis aswell. THat makes up for the mass gain.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.19 13:31:00 - [165] With these changes I'm pretty confused as to what minmatar BS roles are supposed to be (well the Mael is sorta obvious I guess, but not the phoon or the pest).
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.10.19 14:08:00 - [166] WTF Phoon is supposed to be the lightest and fastet BS and yet its not wtf CCP fix my BS!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.19 14:16:00 - [167] So, we're rabbling about numbers here? OK, maybe I missed it. Why are these numbers important? I've had people say things like 'because minmatar are _supposed_ to be faster' and I'm afraid I think that's the wrong reason - I'd rather have balanced combat, than assertions of how 'things are supposed to be'. So, for someone who's only barely flown a Typhoon because it armour tanks a Raven, could you please enlighten me as to why changing the mass/agility/velocity in such a way is actually a problem? (From a game balance point of view, not 'because minmatar are supposed to be faster') -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.19 14:19:00 - [168] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Originally by: Presidio lol apoc the biggest battleship has the smallest mass. WTF? The what now? But yeah. I find the reduction to the Raven's mass to be the most puke-worthy. Why? Because the damn ship is already rather impossible to deal with as a Cruiser- or Frigate-oriented pilot, and even some BCs and BSes, unless you blob. Not to mention it's Caldari to start with, and thus should be one of the heaviest hunks of crap out there, if not the heaviest. Seriously. BSes do not need a mass 'fix' to begin with. Why the Hell?! Mass as a stat doesn't do anything. It's as a multiplier on MWD boost, which in turn is multiplied by base speed (and the base speeds have dropped). And it's as a multiplier on the agility mod, which ... oh look, that's increased too. So... mass itself MEANS NOTHING it's only within the context of mass x agility, and mass x MWD boost x base speed. So really, who cares. You're making assertion that Caldari should be heavy. Why? It's not like they've got lots of armour plates on there. Why should Minmatar scrap iron be intrinsically lighter? -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Orakkus	Posted - 2008.10.19 14:45:00 - [169] I'm of the mind that the developers do not speak English. Because of that, they think the myriad of threads on Minmatar Ships and Projectile weapons must indicate that not only are they not broken, but that they are soo uber we can't help but talk about them constantly. Anybody perhaps speak Russian? Maybe they might want to post and see if that gets anywhere...
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.19 14:56:00 - [170] Originally by: Malcanis With these changes I'm pretty confused as to what minmatar BS roles are supposed to be (well the Mael is sorta obvious I guess, but not the phoon or the pest). I thought it was pretty obvious, CCP was pushing minmatar battleships further into their current role. Of uselessness. Now people won't say "well mael has awsm shield tank" "well phoon has most damage potential". Instead, we can talk about only relevant ships. Plus, this way, CCP only has to balance 9 battleships instead of 12. By removing the 3 minmatar ships from the spectrum, they can deal with 3 distinct range advantages: Gallente, with close range (blasters), Caldari, with mid range (Torps/Blasterrokh), and Amarr, with long range (pulse lasers). With no stupid autocannons in the mix, there's no hassle of trying to place them into this already built and proven damage x range variable. Sure close range could use a little love, but that's a much easier fix than trying to fit some crap weapon system into the range spectrum.

Korovyov	Posted - 2008.10.19 15:05:00 - [171] Originally by: Orakkus I'm of the mind that the developers do not speak English. Because of that, they think the myriad of threads on Minmatar Ships and Projectile weapons must indicate that not only are they not broken, but that they are soo uber we can't help but talk about them constantly. Anybody perhaps speak Russian? Maybe they might want to post and see if that gets anywhere... Yes, because people in Iceland speak Russian.... I think the more likely cause is because Minmatars have sunglasses, and with that alone they should be content to have the only ships that require all skills at level 5 to break even. If this is really their logic I think that Minmatar ships need a unique skillset: Minmatar Sunglasses: For every level of Shiny trained in Sunglasses, you get a 100% bonus to causing other pod pilots to freeze like deer in headlights.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.10.19 15:08:00 - [172] We should write a rp story on the new skirmish race the caldari and cover are tracks.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.19 15:43:00 - [173] Originally by: James Lyrus Mass as a stat doesn't do anything. It's as a multiplier on MWD boost, which in turn is multiplied by base speed (and the base speeds have dropped). And it's as a multiplier on the agility mod, which ... oh look, that's increased too. So... mass itself MEANS NOTHING it's only within the context of mass x agility, and mass x MWD boost x base speed. So really, who cares. You're making assertion that Caldari should be heavy. Why? It's not like they've got lots of armour plates on there. Why should Minmatar scrap iron be intrinsically lighter? Because the Minmatar scrap iron doesn't armor tank either. From the structures of the ships it's logical that the Typhoon is heavier than the Tempest, perhaps even the Mael. But think about the components they ought to throw into these ships. It's about acceleration. And while MWDing isn't supposed to be battleship stuff much, and the flat 500% bonus is an improvement, but for balancing reasons we don't need Ravens blazing around the battlefield faster than Phoons or Pests. You do have a point though. But that doesn't change that the stats are a little f*cked up.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.19 16:38:00 - [174] Originally by: James Lyrus So, we're rabbling about numbers here? OK, maybe I missed it. Why are these numbers important? I've had people say things like 'because minmatar are _supposed_ to be faster' and I'm afraid I think that's the wrong reason - I'd rather have balanced combat, than assertions of how 'things are supposed to be'. So, for someone who's only barely flown a Typhoon because it armour tanks a Raven, could you please enlighten me as to why changing the mass/agility/velocity in such a way is actually a problem? (From a game balance point of view, not 'because minmatar are supposed to be faster') Well yeah, that's what I'm asking. What role are the pest and phoon supposed to be filling? Tank&gank? No. shoot&scoot? No. Sniper? hahahaha. In my mind, the phoon should be barely less agile than the slowest battlecruiser, and the pest just a little less agile than that. Phoon should be significantly faster than any other battleship (at least +20m/s base speed difference), so it can outmaneuver other ships of it's class and dictate range and position. Tempest should be able to warp in, unload a couple of Volleys Of DoomÖ in the time it takes it to re-align, then GTFO. Maelstrom should be a tank&gank ship like the megathron or the geddon, suitable for shooting POS & such. But currently the stats of the ships and the weapon do not support those roles. So I wonder what they're supposed to be.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.19 18:59:00 - [175] Originally by: Aleus Stygian It's about acceleration. And while MWDing isn't supposed to be battleship stuff much, and the flat 500% bonus is an improvement, but for balancing reasons we don't need Ravens blazing around the battlefield faster than Phoons or Pests. You do have a point though. But that doesn't change that the stats are a little f*cked up. Acceleration is keyed to mass x agility modifier. 100 x 0.155 = 15.5 103.6 x 0.15 = 15.54 So actually, there's really not a lot of difference there. The increase in mass only really hurts the peak MWD velocity, but the 4% mass increase is far less relevant than the 20m/sec reduction in base velocity. Or would be, if it weren't for the fact that the 'phoon will _still_ be faster than anything else, either on, or off MWD, because everything else gets slower too. The Raven loses a higher proportion of velocity, but offsets it a bit by a mass reduction. It'll still be slower though. They'll all be slow, but the phoon will still be slower. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2008.10.19 21:41:00 - [176] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Aleus Stygian It's about acceleration. And while MWDing isn't supposed to be battleship stuff much, and the flat 500% bonus is an improvement, but for balancing reasons we don't need Ravens blazing around the battlefield faster than Phoons or Pests. You do have a point though. But that doesn't change that the stats are a little f*cked up. Acceleration is keyed to mass x agility modifier. 100 x 0.155 = 15.5 103.6 x 0.15 = 15.54 So actually, there's really not a lot of difference there. The increase in mass only really hurts the peak MWD velocity, but the 4% mass increase is far less relevant than the 20m/sec reduction in base velocity. Or would be, if it weren't for the fact that the 'phoon will _still_ be faster than anything else, either on, or off MWD, because everything else gets slower too. The Raven loses a higher proportion of velocity, but offsets it a bit by a mass reduction. It'll still be slower though. They'll all be slow, but the phoon will still be slower. So run that with the new raven stats. What role does the phoon have now. Hell it's even more rediculously slanted toward ravens and Caldari on the test server than it is now on tranquility. One ship does it all. Want short range carnage in the most agile ship? get a raven (aside from base stats, torps and no plates ). Want long range sniping? notwithstanding guns better in a fleet fight, it can do that too, and especially well against pos. (and, if you need to use guns, Caldari gets the longest range gun sniper). Want ease of damage dealing in pve? we already know that answer. Essentially the only BS role the raven can't excel in is EW. Oh and which race gets the only EW BS? Caldari online. Minmatar screwed with last place in everything. At least I fly Amarr also, which everyone seems to think now is so uber. I still hate the cap problems with lasers, but the apoc is second best sniper. I just feel sorry for folks who only have Minmatar trained. And yes, I resent that Caldari will not only be tops in pve, but soon also pvp (unless the missile nerf is as harsh as the speed nerf). I was initially in favor of a speed nerf. I still am. But I don't want my phoons to lose their place as the most agile BS, or my rapiers to lose their place as the only recons that can still barely see the falcon for utility. CCP needs to scrap these changes to BS masses and the speed nerf and the missile nerf and start over. This is not the fix we need in this game.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp. Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.20 03:54:00 - [177] Hopefully this will take care of all those FOTM nano-pests we always see roaming around. ... ... ... o.O
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.20 04:01:00 - [178] Originally by: Lili Lu I was initially in favor of a speed nerf. I still am. But I don't want my phoons to lose their place as the most agile BS, or my rapiers to lose their place as the only recons that can still barely see the falcon for utility. CCP needs to scrap these changes to BS masses and the speed nerf and the missile nerf and start over. This is not the fix we need in this game. This. A nano nerf is ok. This nano nerf is idiotic. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tsual Minmatar Iikhelahii khulemah'lal	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:07:00 - [179] Edited by: Tsual on 20/10/2008 17:15:29 Edited by: Tsual on 20/10/2008 17:15:05 Edited by: Tsual on 20/10/2008 17:14:16 Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Lili Lu CCP needs to scrap these changes to BS masses and the speed nerf and the missile nerf and start over. This is not the fix we need in this game. This. A nano nerf is ok. This nano nerf is idiotic. Do missile and web nerf not also mean raven being the scissor suddenly having a "pebble" problem? ******************** Moral is only usefull so far as society demands it from one to accept his presence.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:55:00 - [180] Originally by: Malcanis With these changes I'm pretty confused as to what minmatar BS roles are supposed to be (well the Mael is sorta obvious I guess, but not the phoon or the pest). About the maelstrom, what role does it play?

LadyLubU2 Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.20 18:04:00 - [181] Originally by: Highwind Cid Originally by: Malcanis With these changes I'm pretty confused as to what minmatar BS roles are supposed to be (well the Mael is sorta obvious I guess, but not the phoon or the pest). About the maelstrom, what role does it play? The heavy tanking/crap dps/no tackle one, one of them out there has to be this. -- Sig: NARF FALCONS!!! Please resixe image to the maxiumum allowed filesize of 400 x 120 pixels. Navigator
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.20 23:32:00 - [182] Originally by: Tsual Don't see it as that idiotic when looking at the overall picture. You're absolutely right, nerfing battleship mass is essential to fixing those damn nano HACs.
Pant Alones Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:14:00 - [183] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/10/2008 10:48:53 It's so fortunate we're in a Minmatar battleship threads, so mods don't read/care about massive derails ;) Anyway, WAR is quite awesome, really, but I can't play on US servers where you ****ers are, it appears. Also, Astro, you really want to try it out, loads of fun. Tried a WH which is loads of fun, 10/10 for style, very good close-range DPS (with limited ranged ability, but with a ranged snare effect for tackling runners), etc. Awesome for murdering squishy targets in a hurry. Trying out shadow warrior as well, fun class to play. AH HAH! so this is why you havent been in eve the last few days. I got bored of my WH at lvl 24 or 25 or whatever he is. I want to start a new class but :effort: ------------------------
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.21 04:27:00 - [184] Originally by: LadyLubU2 Originally by: Highwind Cid Originally by: Malcanis With these changes I'm pretty confused as to what minmatar BS roles are supposed to be (well the Mael is sorta obvious I guess, but not the phoon or the pest). About the maelstrom, what role does it play? The heavy tanking/crap dps/no tackle one, one of them out there has to be this. Nerf Maelstroms. Wait... --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.21 04:41:00 - [185] Originally by: LadyLubU2 The heavy tanking/crap dps/no tackle one, one of them out there has to be this. Crap dps? 1100+ dps. Guns dont use cap. Thats pretty good yes. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.21 04:58:00 - [186] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: LadyLubU2 The heavy tanking/crap dps/no tackle one, one of them out there has to be this. Crap dps? 1100+ dps. Guns dont use cap. Thats pretty good yes. Considering it's out DPS'd by the Torp Raven (1200 non over heated using faction torps) at up to 30km (or more if the raven pilot uses range rigs), or out dps'd at point blank range (where it's actually going to have a hope in hell of achieving that kind of damage) by a Neutron Mega. It's "pretty good" until you look at the stiff competition (which, incidentally, is cheaper by a noticable amount). And being cap free is only of use if the ship is active tanking (because you are using all those highs for guns presumably and therefore aren't going to be sacrificing your own cap to nuke the other guy's), but it seems that active tanking by and large has been deemed "stupid" by "those people who know what they're doing", and therefore the utility of that "bonus" is somewhat "questionable" (Just imagine someone doing finger quotes when reading that last sentence).
EFT Warrior	Posted - 2008.10.21 05:16:00 - [187] Typhoon can be handy for being the all DPS battleships that you need in those pesky 10/10 plexes and level 5s. It just does it up close. Damn this has me confused, why minmatar BS's? Doesn't that go against the entire minmatar philosophy?
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.21 05:17:00 - [188] Originally by: EFT Warrior Typhoon can be handy for being the all DPS battleships that you need in those pesky 10/10 plexes and level 5s. It just does it up close. Damn this has me confused, why minmatar BS's? Doesn't that go against the entire minmatar philosophy? Well, they are built from essentially garbage. And, well - garbage in, garbage out.
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.21 06:39:00 - [189] what ****es me off most about this is that ccp havn't admitted that minmatar bs's or any of the minmatar race is a problem..... hell I'd rather them come out and say "It's too much to do nano and minmatar and missile fix at once so you'll have to wait a year till it's fixed". At least then we'd know they where listening and thinking about a fix rather than being afraid that they put some crappy fix together in 5 hours that takes what I like about minmatar ships away. Or otherwise they just ignore it all and let the minmatar be the joke race of eve.... even more than it is now. If I train for the FOTM it gets nerfed and if I train for a specific type of combat ccp can still nerf it or completely redesign it cause it doesn't go with their way of thinking. ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
ygfdtgdf	Posted - 2008.10.21 07:25:00 - [190] Edited by: ygfdtgdf on 21/10/2008 07:25:28 may i ask if u have checked the armor of phoon? i didn't checked but they may have increased it, that can be the reason why phoon has more mass now. yea im so optimistic ooo lol wrong char =) hehe

Semkhet The Priory	Posted - 2008.10.21 07:37:00 - [191] Originally by: Derek Sigres The fundamental flaw in the argument is that Sisi is not TQ. It's like a physics argument that starts with "a sphere in a vacuum". Sisi fights are not representative of much of the PVP in Eve. It often takes place with implants you simply do not have (crystals, slaves, snakes as examples), or using mods you wouldn't risk on TQ (officer/deadspace and even faction). Frequently they revolve around a 1v1, and the results are hardly indictive "real world" performance. Correct, and that's why changes on SiSi should never warrant more than superficial chats about the stats the devs are fiddling with. Until SiSi modifications don't hit TQ, it's of dubious pertinence. Besides reserving all the uproar in order to unleash it AFTER TQ gets messed up is more sensible since in these conditions the impact on the customer base is wider and stronger. Lately I have the impression that some CCP devs either are fighting for an incompetence award, playing dices with stats or are suffering cognitive issues. Beyond any subjective comparisons about this and that, all I know is that EvE in many areas is already a slow paced game, and if we all end having to spend the double of time just to go from origin to destination, given that the majority of individuals who are good at what they do in RL suffer free time constraints, EvE might turn into a game available only to people enjoying loads of free time: kiddies, individuals living on social benefits and retirees. If the current patch goes through unchanged, be prepared to the new EvE: Snoring Online
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.21 07:42:00 - [192] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: LadyLubU2 The heavy tanking/crap dps/no tackle one, one of them out there has to be this. Crap dps? 1100+ dps. Guns dont use cap. Thats pretty good yes. Considering it's out DPS'd by the Torp Raven (1200 non over heated using faction torps) at up to 30km (or more if the raven pilot uses range rigs), or out dps'd at point blank range (where it's actually going to have a hope in hell of achieving that kind of damage) by a Neutron Mega. It's "pretty good" until you look at the stiff competition (which, incidentally, is cheaper by a noticable amount). And being cap free is only of use if the ship is active tanking (because you are using all those highs for guns presumably and therefore aren't going to be sacrificing your own cap to nuke the other guy's), but it seems that active tanking by and large has been deemed "stupid" by "those people who know what they're doing", and therefore the utility of that "bonus" is somewhat "questionable" (Just imagine someone doing finger quotes when reading that last sentence). That +37.5% active tanking bonus might change the maths on buffer vs active tanking a bit. Not that a resist bonus like the Rokh's wouldn't be much better of course. After the speed nerf, the old saw about minmatar ships being versatile enough to be the worst at everything really will be true. Although with the new emphasis on sig radius rather than velocity, perhaps people will start to care about target painters more.
Akyla Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.10.21 09:05:00 - [193] The Maelstrom can be tanked pretty hard to be honest, 700+ DPS if I remember correctly. Without sacrificing gank, as shield tanker. And I just checked the Typhoon, but the only changes are mass and inertia. No change to armor. Also, I noticed the speed on the Typhoon is reduced by 20, when I seem to remember that was 30 in one of the previous versions. In effect that means the percentage by which the Typhoon's speed was reduced is actually less than on any other BS. Maybe that makes up a bit for the increase in mass. Ah well... just keeping my fingers crossed here. ________________________________ All your honey are belong to us!
royal killer Amarr Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2008.10.21 10:31:00 - [194] Holy crap if those stats are correct...89 base speed on my abaddon !?!? why not just give it a siege mod and a jump drive -------------------- ding ding! Wrangler: Hello and w ding ding! Wrangler: ...damn nanowhiners.
Khadur Minmatar The Priory	Posted - 2008.10.21 10:40:00 - [195] Originally by: royal killer Holy crap if those stats are correct...89 base speed on my abaddon !?!? why not just give it a siege mod and a jump drive haha exellent
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.21 11:20:00 - [196] Mmmm... as for the Maelstorm - it's a good ship when you want good DPS (not top notch but not very subpar compared to competition) / no tackle / heavy active tank. This makes it good for fairly smallish gangs - in a heavy 4-5 man gang (where you'll at the very least have a tackling HIC because BS don't tackle very well) you don't have enough BS to make RR-ing very good, and when fighting other small gangs the 1+K DPS tank of the Maelstorm is quite worthwhile, particularly in crystal clones. Of course, if you've got 5-6+ BS, then the Maelstorm is a somewhat inferior choice (except for a pure sniper role, which foregoes one of its bonuses although you get a better sniper then the Tempest), and it gets worse as gang sizes go up. For BS gangs, you have one serious choice, the Typhoon. Post-patch, of course, it will have to either have its own painter (reducing it to 0 tackle after MWD/cap booster/painter/ECCM, all being mandatory modules) or have someone paint the target to do damage with torps, but otherwise it's still ok. Speed got majorly shafted, but you were not using it in that scenario really. The only real gripe with the ship is the messed shield HP / armour HP value on a obvious armour tanker (7 lows). It's a good RR BS for people who cannot fly the Geddon. For any attempt of solo usage on the Typhoon, the torpedo explosion radius nerfs insures that you absolutely must have a painter (so no ECCM to patch up your horrible sensor str or cap booster if you're going neut heavy) to do any reasonable damage to BS (while with 450m explosion radius torps, you did a solid job vs unpainted BS, 533m is already a heavy DPS reduction). So the torp nerf and the speed nerf combined nerf it for solo, but I don't think we'll be seeing any BS soloing post patch whatsoever to begin with. The rationale of making the Typhoon so heavy (which is already quite heavy in a proper - read: plated - fit already) is unclear to me, but a lot of what the devs are doing is totally idiotic these days so meh. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.21 13:55:00 - [197] Originally by: Malcanis That +37.5% active tanking bonus might change the maths on buffer vs active tanking a bit. Not that a resist bonus like the Rokh's wouldn't be much better of course. After the speed nerf, the old saw about minmatar ships being versatile enough to be the worst at everything really will be true. Although with the new emphasis on sig radius rather than velocity, perhaps people will start to care about target painters more. Feel free to check out a thread I made called "Lasers, Projectiles, and Buffer Tanks". In this thread I compared a fully t2 fit mael to an abaddon with t1 guns. The damage at range was about similar (with lasers pulling ahead around 25-30km), and the mael had a slight tank advantage when looking at low DPS numbers. However when looking at serious amounts of DPS (Who goes in a lowsec gang without gank?), the time to live evened out pretty well. The sad part is the Abaddon had a warp disruptor and ECCM, the maelstrom had none of these. Also, had it been using t2 guns, it would outdamage the mael at every range, by far. The fact is however that the maelstrom is not likely to be primary anyway. It doesn't matter if you're tanked to hell if you're the only one left alive in your gang.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:10:00 - [198] The torp argument is such a moot point soon. The missiles are getting adjusted and AC maelstrom will outperform the phoon in general DPS on targets. Maelstrom is fine. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
RedSplat	Posted - 2008.10.21 17:43:00 - [199] At current it is EASY to get EFT to create a Panther that does above 6km/s; this is without resorting to snake implants or boosters (i gave up on it at this point, objective achieved) Okay, so fairly 'ludicrous speed' (then again have you ever seen one in flight?) but what's going to happen post speed nerf when the Phoon hull fails its diet. Is my dream of a 6km/s+ BS going to die? I hate you CCP, youve ruined a whole style of gameplay
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.22 13:29:00 - [200] Looks like on the latest build the Abaddon is back up to being the heaviest Amarr BS. No changes to the Minnies. Raven is still ~5m kg lighter. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara

Knawt Ongrid	Posted - 2008.10.22 17:06:00 - [201] Originally by: Idara Looks like on the latest build the Abaddon is back up to being the heaviest Amarr BS. No changes to the Minnies. Raven is still ~5m kg lighter. Well, you know, the poor Raven needs help. I mean go to any mission hub and all you see are pimped Minmatar ships like the Tempest and Phoon. Or go into any 0.0 system and what's there belt ratting but a cloaking Tempest or Phoon. Hardly ever a Raven. And in pvp 6 torps on a Raven are easily out damaged by the ACs on a Tempest. Especially beyond 5km. Those AC are so powerful once you get past 5km. Torps just can't keep up. So the Raven needs the ability to outmaneuver and control range on other battleships.
Akyla Bears Inc Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.10.23 08:29:00 - [202] Originally by: Knawt Ongrid Originally by: Idara Raven is still ~5m kg lighter. Well, you know, the poor Raven needs help. I mean go to any mission hub and all you see are pimped Minmatar ships like the Tempest and Phoon. Or go into any 0.0 system and what's there belt ratting but a cloaking Tempest or Phoon. Hardly ever a Raven. And in pvp 6 torps on a Raven are easily out damaged by the ACs on a Tempest. Especially beyond 5km. Those AC are so powerful once you get past 5km. Torps just can't keep up. So the Raven needs the ability to outmaneuver and control range on other battleships. Argh! My sarcasmometer just overloaded! ________________________________ All your honey are belong to us!
Knawt Ongrid	Posted - 2008.10.23 16:54:00 - [203] Yes, was a moment of inspiration. Sometimes the best arguments do not involve well reasoned and mathematically supported argumentation, just simple observation nobody can deny. Poor Minmatar BS, did one assplode the wrong dev somewhere?
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.25 02:57:00 - [204] Edited by: Idara on 25/10/2008 02:58:42 Sorry guys, nevermind. The Tempest is an awesome battleship, in fleet or small gang or 1vs1 combat. And the damage type spread for projectiles outweighs their general ****tyness. Zulupark is right. Oh wait, no he's not. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.25 10:01:00 - [205] Originally by: Idara Edited by: Idara on 25/10/2008 02:58:42 ..... The Tempest is an awesome battleship, in fleet or small gang or 1vs1 combat. And the damage type spread for projectiles outweighs their general ****tyness. ..... damn it knawt why did u have to brake my sarcasmometer... now i can't tell if the above was serious or not. As for how to fix the minmatar I'd like to see some of the ships with dual proj dmg bonuses changed to 20% bonus to dmg per lvl and 5% rof penelty per level. Not nearly a complete solution but it would give ships like tempest, munin etc. a proper alpha strike without having amarr fit projectiles.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.25 10:22:00 - [206] Originally by: Idara Edited by: Idara on 25/10/2008 02:58:42 Sorry guys, nevermind. The Tempest is an awesome battleship, in fleet or small gang or 1vs1 combat. And the damage type spread for projectiles outweighs their general ****tyness. Zulupark is right. Oh wait, no he's not. no he faisl when he said anythign about shield tank. TRy it. Specially try to make a shiedl tanked REp Fleet tempest. You will notice there is not enough CPU for that. IF tempest has more cpu then at least it could fullfill a gank and extra agile BS role. The simple fact is all traditional tempest tactics have been nerfed one after the other on the last 2 years. Nos nerf, ECM nerf and overheat (overheat nerf completely the concept of close kiting because if you are in middle of a mwd cycle you will never be able to rec to an enemy overheating his MWD. The only think I woudl like for tempest is a bit more CPU (so specially the faction version can be usefull) and have a mass and agility advantage over all other battleships so it can play the more nimble BS role. No and a 2% is not a really advantage. Somethign close to 10% because it need soemthing to compensate having a significantly lower dps and lower tank than most of its competitors. Also when Zulupark says that changing damage overweights anything he is simply forgetting missiles that can change BETTER the damage type and are still basically superior. Somethign that NEED to be changed. MAke fusion the top damage ammo and EMP the 3rd one. Explosive is to be our top damage, not EM!!!
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2008.10.25 10:48:00 - [207] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Idara Edited by: Idara on 25/10/2008 02:58:42 Sorry guys, nevermind. The Tempest is an awesome battleship, in fleet or small gang or 1vs1 combat. And the damage type spread for projectiles outweighs their general ****tyness. Zulupark is right. Oh wait, no he's not. no he faisl when he said anythign about shield tank. TRy it. Specially try to make a shiedl tanked REp Fleet tempest. You will notice there is not enough CPU for that. IF tempest has more cpu then at least it could fullfill a gank and extra agile BS role. The simple fact is all traditional tempest tactics have been nerfed one after the other on the last 2 years. Nos nerf, ECM nerf and overheat (overheat nerf completely the concept of close kiting because if you are in middle of a mwd cycle you will never be able to rec to an enemy overheating his MWD. The only think I woudl like for tempest is a bit more CPU (so specially the faction version can be usefull) and have a mass and agility advantage over all other battleships so it can play the more nimble BS role. No and a 2% is not a really advantage. Somethign close to 10% because it need soemthing to compensate having a significantly lower dps and lower tank than most of its competitors. Also when Zulupark says that changing damage overweights anything he is simply forgetting missiles that can change BETTER the damage type and are still basically superior. Somethign that NEED to be changed. MAke fusion the top damage ammo and EMP the 3rd one. Explosive is to be our top damage, not EM!!! This depends on what sort of shield tank you are going for, sadly although minmatar ships get an active shielding bonus, its not enough, needs a boost to 10%/lvl to be effective or even remotely useful, currently we all know that passive/ehp based tanks are the way to go now. As for changing Fusion <-> EMP, I agree, however I believe that Depleted Uranium should have a +falloff bonus as it goes inline with its description as been commonly used by minmatar pilots, it would also greatly assist the t1/faction ammo users.


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