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My Nerfed Minnie BSs - Let Me Show You Them or Seriously, wtf CCP

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Veryez	Posted - 2008.10.17 07:37:00 - [151] It is rather ironic that the people who usually have the best solutions for minmatar problems, have come to the conclusion that the best solution to the heavy handed speed nerf is to find a better game, and yes I'm seriously looking at warhammer too. While I agree in principle with the need to slow ships down, the nerf to webs and the nerf of large guns will probably ruin eve for me. I will never agree that frigate-sized ships should be immune to battleships. All ships should have the ability to fight either close or long range, obviously some will be better at one or the other, but removing close range fighting from battleships (except against other battleships) is a horrible design decision. For 3 years I speced in minmatar, and was stunned at how well my 1 year old amarr alt performed. Unless you've flown both races, and others for that matter, you really don't get a feeling for the imbalance(s) in this game. EFT can show you the numbers, but that isn't enough, performance on TQ is where the difference becomes tangible, and I found it to be noticible. I'll probably stick it out for a bit and see if the mess I saw on sisi comes to TQ unchanged, then make my decision. To those who have some faith that CCP will get around to balancing Minmatar (and/or gal after this next expansion), you are just fooling yourselves. To balance the game would require you to either play it (meaning all races, under all situations) or listen to the people who do, CCP has never demonstrated either ability. I love Eve, it's a great game, but significantly changing the combat dynamics for a significant number of ships isn't going to win this game any new fans. I believe SWG tried something close to that.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.17 08:44:00 - [152] Edited by: Grimpak on 17/10/2008 08:44:16 Originally by: Derek Sigres Chosen (The best tank in the game as far as I'm concerned) also: zomg AOE debuff auras (that buff you and your party that is in range), cool looks. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:54:00 - [153] I refuse to believe this will make it to TQ. I mean, even CCP wouldn't be this stupid.
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.17 10:59:00 - [154] Originally by: Space Fascist But capless weapons. Also, you'll be able to walk in stations! V e r t i c a l l y ! Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:15:00 - [155] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Idara You'll notice the only person saying much about the Tempest being 'good' is NightmareX. I'll let you figure out the rest on your own. If you still mean the Tempest is crap, then why do i get those results here: Link. The Tempest must be good on sisi where the changes are now when i can get results like that. Because you've got 10x the skillpoints of the average player, are running a slave set + 5%/7% implants, and have a clue how to fly your ship. What's funny is that you still managed to lose despite all of that going for you (and your argument that eeeeveryone runs full HG slave sets on Sisi is complete bunk, btw). -Liang Ummm about the he knows how to fly ship part... are we talking about the same NightmareX that used to be in GW? (theoretically anyway) Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.17 15:00:00 - [156] Edited by: NightmareX on 17/10/2008 15:03:08 Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: NightmareX Originally by: Idara You'll notice the only person saying much about the Tempest being 'good' is NightmareX. I'll let you figure out the rest on your own. If you still mean the Tempest is crap, then why do i get those results here: Link. The Tempest must be good on sisi where the changes are now when i can get results like that. Because you've got 10x the skillpoints of the average player, are running a slave set + 5%/7% implants, and have a clue how to fly your ship. What's funny is that you still managed to lose despite all of that going for you (and your argument that eeeeveryone runs full HG slave sets on Sisi is complete bunk, btw). -Liang Ummm about the he knows how to fly ship part... are we talking about the same NightmareX that used to be in GW? (theoretically anyway) Yes i know how to fly and fit the ships i use, and yes, i'm still the original owner of the character. I haven't been able to reply anywhere on the internet the last 3 days because i have been at the hospital for 3+ days now. Yes i have got the permission to go home this weekend from the hospital, so from Monday again, i wont be able to respond to anyone here for some days. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.17 15:35:00 - [157] Originally by: Sokratesz I refuse to believe this will make it to TQ. I mean, even CCP wouldn't be this stupid. ...
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2008.10.17 17:10:00 - [158] Phoon heavier than a Raven?! WTFCCPWTFCCPWTFCCPWTFCCPWTFCCP
Idara Caldari Failure Corp	Posted - 2008.10.17 21:02:00 - [159] Let's keep this visible, at least until they're changed. --- Failure Corp [FAILD] - Failing to fail first in EVE - Idara
Rusty Sprocket	Posted - 2008.10.18 00:01:00 - [160] Would it not be easier to just apply a max velocity that actually means something? ie. When the ship reaches a certain speed, let's just propose 10x its base speed it begins to take ship and module damage. No more nano issues, no imbalanced speed issues, no nerfs to modules, just a simple across the board speed limit based on the base speed of a ship.
Knawt Ongrid	Posted - 2008.10.19 04:07:00 - [161] Are the Minnie BS still heavier than a Raven on the test server?
Presidio Hug Nutz	Posted - 2008.10.19 04:17:00 - [162] lol apoc the biggest battleship has the smallest mass. WTF? -
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.19 04:28:00 - [163] Originally by: Presidio lol apoc the biggest battleship has the smallest mass. WTF? The what now? But yeah. I find the reduction to the Raven's mass to be the most puke-worthy. Why? Because the damn ship is already rather impossible to deal with as a Cruiser- or Frigate-oriented pilot, and even some BCs and BSes, unless you blob. Not to mention it's Caldari to start with, and thus should be one of the heaviest hunks of crap out there, if not the heaviest. Seriously. BSes do not need a mass 'fix' to begin with. Why the Hell?!
Miranele	Posted - 2008.10.19 11:14:00 - [164] well comon, Have you looked on the ships ?: Raven is slim and aerodynamic ( not that it matters in space but :P ) Ph00n is massive vertical silo . :P Well serius though, its fun to see that caldari bs get some speed. But to roob the only thing that makes minnie's a little big good. Thats just harsh, Hope it aint permanent. Or i hope they got a boost for minis aswell. THat makes up for the mass gain.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.19 13:31:00 - [165] With these changes I'm pretty confused as to what minmatar BS roles are supposed to be (well the Mael is sorta obvious I guess, but not the phoon or the pest).
Burn Mac Minmatar The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.10.19 14:08:00 - [166] WTF Phoon is supposed to be the lightest and fastet BS and yet its not wtf CCP fix my BS!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.19 14:16:00 - [167] So, we're rabbling about numbers here? OK, maybe I missed it. Why are these numbers important? I've had people say things like 'because minmatar are _supposed_ to be faster' and I'm afraid I think that's the wrong reason - I'd rather have balanced combat, than assertions of how 'things are supposed to be'. So, for someone who's only barely flown a Typhoon because it armour tanks a Raven, could you please enlighten me as to why changing the mass/agility/velocity in such a way is actually a problem? (From a game balance point of view, not 'because minmatar are supposed to be faster') -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.19 14:19:00 - [168] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Originally by: Presidio lol apoc the biggest battleship has the smallest mass. WTF? The what now? But yeah. I find the reduction to the Raven's mass to be the most puke-worthy. Why? Because the damn ship is already rather impossible to deal with as a Cruiser- or Frigate-oriented pilot, and even some BCs and BSes, unless you blob. Not to mention it's Caldari to start with, and thus should be one of the heaviest hunks of crap out there, if not the heaviest. Seriously. BSes do not need a mass 'fix' to begin with. Why the Hell?! Mass as a stat doesn't do anything. It's as a multiplier on MWD boost, which in turn is multiplied by base speed (and the base speeds have dropped). And it's as a multiplier on the agility mod, which ... oh look, that's increased too. So... mass itself MEANS NOTHING it's only within the context of mass x agility, and mass x MWD boost x base speed. So really, who cares. You're making assertion that Caldari should be heavy. Why? It's not like they've got lots of armour plates on there. Why should Minmatar scrap iron be intrinsically lighter? -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Orakkus	Posted - 2008.10.19 14:45:00 - [169] I'm of the mind that the developers do not speak English. Because of that, they think the myriad of threads on Minmatar Ships and Projectile weapons must indicate that not only are they not broken, but that they are soo uber we can't help but talk about them constantly. Anybody perhaps speak Russian? Maybe they might want to post and see if that gets anywhere...
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.19 14:56:00 - [170] Originally by: Malcanis With these changes I'm pretty confused as to what minmatar BS roles are supposed to be (well the Mael is sorta obvious I guess, but not the phoon or the pest). I thought it was pretty obvious, CCP was pushing minmatar battleships further into their current role. Of uselessness. Now people won't say "well mael has awsm shield tank" "well phoon has most damage potential". Instead, we can talk about only relevant ships. Plus, this way, CCP only has to balance 9 battleships instead of 12. By removing the 3 minmatar ships from the spectrum, they can deal with 3 distinct range advantages: Gallente, with close range (blasters), Caldari, with mid range (Torps/Blasterrokh), and Amarr, with long range (pulse lasers). With no stupid autocannons in the mix, there's no hassle of trying to place them into this already built and proven damage x range variable. Sure close range could use a little love, but that's a much easier fix than trying to fit some crap weapon system into the range spectrum.
Korovyov	Posted - 2008.10.19 15:05:00 - [171] Originally by: Orakkus I'm of the mind that the developers do not speak English. Because of that, they think the myriad of threads on Minmatar Ships and Projectile weapons must indicate that not only are they not broken, but that they are soo uber we can't help but talk about them constantly. Anybody perhaps speak Russian? Maybe they might want to post and see if that gets anywhere... Yes, because people in Iceland speak Russian.... I think the more likely cause is because Minmatars have sunglasses, and with that alone they should be content to have the only ships that require all skills at level 5 to break even. If this is really their logic I think that Minmatar ships need a unique skillset: Minmatar Sunglasses: For every level of Shiny trained in Sunglasses, you get a 100% bonus to causing other pod pilots to freeze like deer in headlights.
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.10.19 15:08:00 - [172] We should write a rp story on the new skirmish race the caldari and cover are tracks.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.19 15:43:00 - [173] Originally by: James Lyrus Mass as a stat doesn't do anything. It's as a multiplier on MWD boost, which in turn is multiplied by base speed (and the base speeds have dropped). And it's as a multiplier on the agility mod, which ... oh look, that's increased too. So... mass itself MEANS NOTHING it's only within the context of mass x agility, and mass x MWD boost x base speed. So really, who cares. You're making assertion that Caldari should be heavy. Why? It's not like they've got lots of armour plates on there. Why should Minmatar scrap iron be intrinsically lighter? Because the Minmatar scrap iron doesn't armor tank either. From the structures of the ships it's logical that the Typhoon is heavier than the Tempest, perhaps even the Mael. But think about the components they ought to throw into these ships. It's about acceleration. And while MWDing isn't supposed to be battleship stuff much, and the flat 500% bonus is an improvement, but for balancing reasons we don't need Ravens blazing around the battlefield faster than Phoons or Pests. You do have a point though. But that doesn't change that the stats are a little f*cked up.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.19 16:38:00 - [174] Originally by: James Lyrus So, we're rabbling about numbers here? OK, maybe I missed it. Why are these numbers important? I've had people say things like 'because minmatar are _supposed_ to be faster' and I'm afraid I think that's the wrong reason - I'd rather have balanced combat, than assertions of how 'things are supposed to be'. So, for someone who's only barely flown a Typhoon because it armour tanks a Raven, could you please enlighten me as to why changing the mass/agility/velocity in such a way is actually a problem? (From a game balance point of view, not 'because minmatar are supposed to be faster') Well yeah, that's what I'm asking. What role are the pest and phoon supposed to be filling? Tank&gank? No. shoot&scoot? No. Sniper? hahahaha. In my mind, the phoon should be barely less agile than the slowest battlecruiser, and the pest just a little less agile than that. Phoon should be significantly faster than any other battleship (at least +20m/s base speed difference), so it can outmaneuver other ships of it's class and dictate range and position. Tempest should be able to warp in, unload a couple of Volleys Of DoomÖ in the time it takes it to re-align, then GTFO. Maelstrom should be a tank&gank ship like the megathron or the geddon, suitable for shooting POS & such. But currently the stats of the ships and the weapon do not support those roles. So I wonder what they're supposed to be.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.19 18:59:00 - [175] Originally by: Aleus Stygian It's about acceleration. And while MWDing isn't supposed to be battleship stuff much, and the flat 500% bonus is an improvement, but for balancing reasons we don't need Ravens blazing around the battlefield faster than Phoons or Pests. You do have a point though. But that doesn't change that the stats are a little f*cked up. Acceleration is keyed to mass x agility modifier. 100 x 0.155 = 15.5 103.6 x 0.15 = 15.54 So actually, there's really not a lot of difference there. The increase in mass only really hurts the peak MWD velocity, but the 4% mass increase is far less relevant than the 20m/sec reduction in base velocity. Or would be, if it weren't for the fact that the 'phoon will _still_ be faster than anything else, either on, or off MWD, because everything else gets slower too. The Raven loses a higher proportion of velocity, but offsets it a bit by a mass reduction. It'll still be slower though. They'll all be slow, but the phoon will still be slower. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2008.10.19 21:41:00 - [176] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Aleus Stygian It's about acceleration. And while MWDing isn't supposed to be battleship stuff much, and the flat 500% bonus is an improvement, but for balancing reasons we don't need Ravens blazing around the battlefield faster than Phoons or Pests. You do have a point though. But that doesn't change that the stats are a little f*cked up. Acceleration is keyed to mass x agility modifier. 100 x 0.155 = 15.5 103.6 x 0.15 = 15.54 So actually, there's really not a lot of difference there. The increase in mass only really hurts the peak MWD velocity, but the 4% mass increase is far less relevant than the 20m/sec reduction in base velocity. Or would be, if it weren't for the fact that the 'phoon will _still_ be faster than anything else, either on, or off MWD, because everything else gets slower too. The Raven loses a higher proportion of velocity, but offsets it a bit by a mass reduction. It'll still be slower though. They'll all be slow, but the phoon will still be slower. So run that with the new raven stats. What role does the phoon have now. Hell it's even more rediculously slanted toward ravens and Caldari on the test server than it is now on tranquility. One ship does it all. Want short range carnage in the most agile ship? get a raven (aside from base stats, torps and no plates ). Want long range sniping? notwithstanding guns better in a fleet fight, it can do that too, and especially well against pos. (and, if you need to use guns, Caldari gets the longest range gun sniper). Want ease of damage dealing in pve? we already know that answer. Essentially the only BS role the raven can't excel in is EW. Oh and which race gets the only EW BS? Caldari online. Minmatar screwed with last place in everything. At least I fly Amarr also, which everyone seems to think now is so uber. I still hate the cap problems with lasers, but the apoc is second best sniper. I just feel sorry for folks who only have Minmatar trained. And yes, I resent that Caldari will not only be tops in pve, but soon also pvp (unless the missile nerf is as harsh as the speed nerf). I was initially in favor of a speed nerf. I still am. But I don't want my phoons to lose their place as the most agile BS, or my rapiers to lose their place as the only recons that can still barely see the falcon for utility. CCP needs to scrap these changes to BS masses and the speed nerf and the missile nerf and start over. This is not the fix we need in this game.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp. Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.20 03:54:00 - [177] Hopefully this will take care of all those FOTM nano-pests we always see roaming around. ... ... ... o.O
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.20 04:01:00 - [178] Originally by: Lili Lu I was initially in favor of a speed nerf. I still am. But I don't want my phoons to lose their place as the most agile BS, or my rapiers to lose their place as the only recons that can still barely see the falcon for utility. CCP needs to scrap these changes to BS masses and the speed nerf and the missile nerf and start over. This is not the fix we need in this game. This. A nano nerf is ok. This nano nerf is idiotic. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tsual Minmatar Iikhelahii khulemah'lal	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:07:00 - [179] Edited by: Tsual on 20/10/2008 17:15:29 Edited by: Tsual on 20/10/2008 17:15:05 Edited by: Tsual on 20/10/2008 17:14:16 Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Lili Lu CCP needs to scrap these changes to BS masses and the speed nerf and the missile nerf and start over. This is not the fix we need in this game. This. A nano nerf is ok. This nano nerf is idiotic. Do missile and web nerf not also mean raven being the scissor suddenly having a "pebble" problem? ******************** Moral is only usefull so far as society demands it from one to accept his presence.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:55:00 - [180] Originally by: Malcanis With these changes I'm pretty confused as to what minmatar BS roles are supposed to be (well the Mael is sorta obvious I guess, but not the phoon or the pest). About the maelstrom, what role does it play?

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