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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Sailon	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:54:00 - [2251] Originally by: Azuraito Originally by: Huberek Morchu I cant wait till all you guys quit and leave more game for me. Less competition is good! Signed yea i assume no pvp targets to shoot is fun :D
Huma Tsalis AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:55:00 - [2252] Cache cleared.
Hixxy	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:56:00 - [2253] Originally by: Azuraito Originally by: Huberek Morchu I cant wait till all you guys quit and leave more game for me. Less competition is good! Signed i remember the face:P

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:56:00 - [2254] Originally by: Seth Ruin Originally by: Son Korhal Edited by: Son Korhal on 14/10/2008 17:52:30 Originally by: CCP Wrangler Test2 Lost for words on another epic ccp fail idea? Edit: Ok wrangler likes to delete his own posts. Makes me think the "test" posts are possibly Wrangler trying to fix this thread? Could be that it disappeared entirely by accident, and they're actually trying to fix it Yes, we're trying to fix it but we'll need to have web take a look at it. It's still accessible through the other sticky though. Wrangler Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Email Reducing lag in EVE: The Jita Conundrum - StacklessIO or: How We Reduced Lag - Such Stuff As Dreams Are Made On - EVE64 - My node was equipped with the following...

Eheufaucan VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:56:00 - [2255] Looks like SOE took over CCP. If so...will EVE be added to the Station Access so I can play it together with Everquest 2 for only one monthly fee? Would be great!
Tac Ginaz The Righteous Few	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:56:00 - [2256] Edited by: Tac Ginaz on 14/10/2008 18:00:59 A quick look at some numbers from my end only. I have only 2 accounts. One is my fighting character the other my trade character. I rarely log my trade character in as it is just to make market orders and haul stuff in the freighter. This trader character is ghost-trained. One month I sub, the other month I do not as the 31+ day train skill is just silly to pay for in an account that doesnt even undock for most of its existence. Repeat. 12 months of a year I pay 6 for the trade char. The fighting account is subbed the whole 12 months. Assuming easy number of $12 per month per account. Fighting char: $144 a year Trade Char: $72 Total: $216 Now, after this change, I have no reason at all to keep my trader account active at any time of the year. So it will not be resubbed but rather, I'll cut my losses and transfer the character to my fighting account and just use it as a trade char. So now, CCP loses on $72 and only receives a one time fee of $20 as I move my trader toon into the fighting account. I will still make the same amount of isk in the game, just that I may not be able to ever fly the jump freighter I was ghost training the trader for. shrug c'est la vie. Estimating about 20,000 accounts in the game who hold dual or triple+ accounts.. look at the losses CCP is looking at now as most of those 20k dual+ account holders are doing the same thing I am: 20,000 active (full time): 240,000 USD 20,000 semi-active accts (half-time): 120,000 USD Loss caused by the cancel of the half-time accts.. wow look at that. 120 grand. So, seriously CCP.. is the 'issues with database' really causing you a loss of $120k USD a year? Or... did you really believe the playerbase would simply sub year-long their semi-active accounts and increase your revenue? That's naive and incredibly short sighted. Sadly, after looking at your track record of monumentally unwise decisions and policies over the years I really believe you folks thought this would happen. On the other hand, if you guys would've fixed the issue of unsubbed accounts having market orders active and paying maintainance on offices and such.. THAT would have been received with a much better response. It really is silly that when I went overseas for a couple of years I had my trade character holding an office in a station with really big sale orders (quantity). Came back two years later.. It still held the office and corp name/CEO status and all my stuff was sold with a really big profit. THAT is an issue. Non-active accounts should not receive nor give out isk. Skill training I say is a good feature as long as the player needs to resub every other month to set new skill (its revenue for CCP) and it does not affect the game economy. But leaving a non-paying account still affecting the market is an issue.
Kaesarr	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:57:00 - [2257] Edited by: Kaesarr on 14/10/2008 17:57:00 http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/b/2/24/921/24921400_censured.jpg censored area..
Seth Ruin Minmatar Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:58:00 - [2258] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Yes, we're trying to fix it but we'll need to have web take a look at it. It's still accessible through the other sticky though. --ConspiracyTheories; Well that's one down. -- (CCP Inconsistency) Why cover it up? We KNOW it's all just about money
Erimisha Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:58:00 - [2259] Originally by: Shad0wsFury However, I do agree with CCP that the FEATURE was being abused by certain people. Given that not everyone abuses it, it would have been a much more appropriate move to deal with each "ghost trainer" individually, looking at account history and seeing who was abusing it and who wasn't. Abusers get the feature taken away, simple as that. The idea was that everyone COULD do it at one time or another. Look, not everyone 'abuses' the in-game market to make billions of ISK/month. Is that a bug that should be fixed? Let's also point out that first CCP claimed it was being fixed because it created database lag and then they changed it to a known feature listed in their official documentation suddenly became a bug. CCP is obviously moderating these threads pretty heavily yet they're ignoring any kind of feedback/response from a dev on the matter. This is exactly how they handled the whole 'cheating dev' fiasco years ago. Except this time there is no 'whistle blower' to try and lay the blame on as a diversion.
yarrmarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:58:00 - [2260] Originally by: Annaphera Originally by: yarrmarr Dude, wake up. a commercial company 'trying to be nice' will fail miserably. the company only has one goal; make profit and that's what they're doing here. Thus the end of ghost training. So what is everyone so upset about? Are you really that simplistic? I'll give it one more try to explain it. You are conveniently assuming that ghost training was a nice feat, aren't you? Maybe you should try and see it as an essential way of making sure that people who would otherwise have stopped playing would have an incentive to return after 1-2-3 etc months. Why do you think it would have made it to the official player guide as a feature? The fact that is apparently is being abused (where's the proof?) sucks, but labelling it as something that has been a bug since day 1 and thereby lieing to your customers while hoping to get away with it is simply the most stupid thing possible. Add to that a flavor of very bad timing and the appearance of 'hey guys, you'll loose something you've had for 5 years in about two days and uhm... sucks to be you' and the result is what you have here. Very bad PR and angry customers. Note; I'm not even talking about whether it's a good or a bad thing to remove it as such, just trying to make you understand that your point of view is very simplistic. It's not gonna bring in any additional revenue so from a commercial perspective they are doing something really wrong. Nuff said.
Annaphera Minmatar Super Green Industries	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:59:00 - [2261] Originally by: Erimisha Originally by: Annaphera Where is your 'backing' that this is a bug? You brought up the fact that they changed the Chinese server to stop Ghost training awhile ago. If they knew how to fix the bug a year ago why did they leave it in? Could it be, just possibly, maybe, because they were trying to be nice and not hurt people who were honestly just on vacation, or forgot to resub, or whatever? That they really never intended it, but wanted to leave it in as long as it wasn't getting systematically abused? Given the most common origin for farmers, I'm not surprised it got to that point on Serenity first. Now they say it has gotten there on Tranq. They most likely have logs that show them what skills are being trained by unsubbed accounts - if most of the growth in ghost training was on very high-end skills set just before the unsub, aren't they justified in assuming most are abusing? Could it be that gasp they might be telling us the truth?? Do you have proof that this was getting "systematically abused" any more now than in the last 5 years? I have no proof but I'd wager to give an estimate that any increase in the 'abuse' of this coincides with the removal of the 30 and 90d GTCs which caused a ridiculous price increase in GTCs. CCP says it has, but I doubt you'll take their word for it. I'm guessing the GTC bit cause some, yes, but that should have been more spread, I'd think, and start sooner after the change. Personally, I'm guardedly willing to take CCP's word at face value...until and unless it is proven they are lying this time. Originally by: Erimisha The other thing that really bothers me about this is words like 'abusing' 'exploit' and 'cheating'. CCP intentionally coded the game to do it this way from the start. Do NOT tell me they couldn't simply execute some code at the same time the db updates "Account ACTIVE: Y" to "ACCOUNT ACTIVE: N" to pause training. Obviously they know how otherwise we would be able to log in if the account was inactive. We all know that it is possible to pause training in the middle of a train so that code is there too. 'Exploit' is overstating things, I agree. 'Cheating' is a matter of perspective, and I can see how some might call it that. 'Abusing' is the word CCP used, and frankly, I can understand it if they are telling us the truth about the surge in numbers. Now, my turn - if you aren't telepathic and can't produce a statement that says this was intentional, then stop stating so as if it were a fact. From what quotes I've seen, CCP never intended to have it there, any more than jetcan mining was intended. However, they left it as a perk as long as it wasn't being used by large numbers of people to get something for nothing. Now it is, and now it goes away. Hence, "abused".
Mallikan Gallente Plundering Penguins Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:59:00 - [2262] Good job CCP, again, I completely agree with this action and the dev blog. Thanks and it's about time. Whiners, STFU or GTFO already. The whole time you're whining for CCP to "fix" what has just been fixed you're paying for a game you swear to quit along with your alts. Do it already ffs, I'm sick of seeing your negative posts against a game you obviously enjoy. CCP: 1 Whine Troll Emo's: -2 You lose emo kids, go play some Guitar Hero or something before you start crying. --- lol.. I messed up.
Kename Fin Caldari Dark Star Galactic Engineers	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:00:00 - [2263] I joined EVE when they added a Mac client. It was one of the few modern MMO's with a Mac client [no comment about the quality of the client] and I was excited and thrilled. I mailed all my Mac using friends. I loved the EVE community and the fact that it seemed like CCP was interested in serving the game playing community in the process of selling and improving their game. I am sad. I've only used ghost training for a couple of times. Both times were when I had to be out of the game for personal reasons but didn't want to fall behind. It WAS a feature. I've since subbed with for a year, but if I can find a good Mac MMO out there, I'm not sure I would be willing to pass it up for EVE. I'm sad that the community has lost an advocate for their favorite game with the passing of CCP. The shadow has fallen and we are under it. I'm not an emo, a carebear or a pie rat, I'm just an EVE player who has lost her idealistic innocence about a game she loved.
Soldur Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:01:00 - [2264] Edited by: Soldur on 14/10/2008 18:02:22 Originally by: Mallikan Good job CCP, again, I completely agree with this action and the dev blog. Thanks and it's about time. Whiners, STFU or GTFO already. The whole time you're whining for CCP to "fix" what has just been fixed you're paying for a game you swear to quit along with your alts. Do it already ffs, I'm sick of seeing your negative posts against a game you obviously enjoy. CCP: 1 Whine Troll Emo's: -2 You lose emo kids, go play some Guitar Hero or something before you start crying. shame you are too stupid to understand that "ghost training" has no effect on game play or the auctual state of the game. u must be a ccp alt
Sailon	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:01:00 - [2265] Originally by: Mallikan Good job CCP, again, I completely agree with this action and the dev blog. Thanks and it's about time. Whiners, STFU or GTFO already. The whole time you're whining for CCP to "fix" what has just been fixed you're paying for a game you swear to quit along with your alts. Do it already ffs, I'm sick of seeing your negative posts against a game you obviously enjoy. CCP: 1 Whine Troll Emo's: -2 You lose emo kids, go play some Guitar Hero or something before you start crying. emo troll knows other emo trolls.
Joseph Snite	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:03:00 - [2266] For the people who say, "people want a service and not have to pay for it".. I am actually not being cheap at all. I am just not paying for somthing I am not playing. How is that cheap? Just because I logged on one time and clicked one button, that justifies paying 15$? Personally I know no one cares and there will be someone who posts "Oh well". I will probably quit the game because of this. Yeah big deal CCP will lose my 15$ a month. But will also lose a customer who buys GTC's and sells them for isk to other players to keep their subscriptions active. I clearly dont think it was a bug, Its been documented that they knew about it and havent consider'd it to be a bug until just recently. And yes it is unfortunate that the account management page is not working. But I dont think its a conspiracy.
Dulas Caldari Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:03:00 - [2267] HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA LOLOLOLOLOL You have just been podded by CCP. Can I have your stuff?
Tir'in B'karra	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:04:00 - [2268] Originally by: Tac Ginaz This trader character is ghost-trained. One month I sub, the other month I do not as the 31+ day train skill is just silly to pay for in an account that doesnt even undock for most of its existence. Repeat. Silly to you because you've simply become used to ghost training. No other game lets you ghost train, and no one in those games whines and says that it's silly. It's not silly to have to -pay- for a -game- that you are benefiting from. Do you benefit from that character on your regular character? Yes. Therefore you should be paying to enjoy that character. What you're saying is absolutely silly. You're asking CCP if losing money they haven't lost yet is worth implementing a fix that they realized they need to fix. Fail much?
Simon DeTorqueville Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:05:00 - [2269] To all those folks fleeing Eve at the thought of having to pay to play: I also will take all your stuff when you go. C-ya!
VLAD DRACU	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:05:00 - [2270] Originally by: Mallikan Good job CCP, again, I completely agree with this action and the dev blog. Thanks and it's about time. Whiners, STFU or GTFO already. The whole time you're whining for CCP to "fix" what has just been fixed you're paying for a game you swear to quit along with your alts. Do it already ffs, I'm sick of seeing your negative posts against a game you obviously enjoy. CCP: 1 Whine Troll Emo's: -2 You lose emo kids, go play some Guitar Hero or something before you start crying. sir, allow us to worship your might
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:05:00 - [2271] Originally by: Soldur u must be a ccp alt Clearly it's time for the Eve Tinfoil Hat Drinking Game.
IR Scoutar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:05:00 - [2272] Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: Erimisha CCP intentionally coded the game to do it this way from the start. Do NOT tell me they couldn't simply execute some code at the same time the db updates "Account ACTIVE: Y" to "ACCOUNT ACTIVE: N" to pause training. There's a huge and important difference between "Didn't fix it right away" and "intentionally coded the game to do it this way from the start". Pretending they are the same thing is just lying. Further, skills don't actually train in real time, it just appears that way. When you log in it calculates how many skill points you accumulated since your last log-in and adds that to the existing count. I imagine now the system will update your character file after the 3 day grace period has expired by finalizing the sp count and setting the skill in training to "none". (Which, I agree, they should probably have done when this oversight was first discovered. Sloppy.) actualy i would call it intentional because at what point would you say ok so when the game time runs out we need to stop the character from doing things and then somebody goes ahead and codes it in a way that the character cant login to myeve or the eve client itself but everything else about the character still continues to run ? at some point there was a deliberate decision that its ether too much work or its fine if the character continues to sell train and earn rp even thou he aint paying and 5 years to revearse that decision is quite quite quite a stretch if it was an oversight then im just lost for words and must /facepalm till eternity
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:05:00 - [2273] you can have my wardec for all i have your stuff trolling http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/lie.jpg guide ninja edited already hidden topic: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&thread
NephI AsantE Pandoras Military And Civilian Operations Group Raging Phoenix Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:06:00 - [2274] Edited by: NephI AsantE on 14/10/2008 18:07:32 YES! I got first page of the 3rd gen of this SNAFU by CCP. Since 2nd Gen of this SNAFU thread is "invisible" and 1st Gen of the SNAFU thread got locked. Oh and CCP(Fill in your name here) STOP READING And Get fixing the account mgmt page! Nephi
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:07:00 - [2275] Originally by: IR Scoutar actualy i would call it intentional because... Sadly the word "intentional" already has a definition.
HeyRahNah Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:07:00 - [2276] I have had 2 accounts for a long long time. I have very occasionnally ghost trained skills. Usually maybe for a week or at max 2. Simply because i had say a month of training on a skill. i start it then my sub runs out 2weeks later... if i have no need to use that character. i didnt bother to sub it back till it was ready. Carrier 5 was 1 skill that i "ghost trained" mainly because i got bored of eve and quit for a good 7months. left a long skill going so it wouldnt be a total waste if i ever came back. And everybody who says you should have to pay and are making the argument about SP for free are idiots. no im sorry but you are. EVE is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT GAME TO ANY OTHER. In WoW or anywhere else your XP depends how much you play/kill/do etc. In Eve your Isk depends on it. not your SP. EvE is designed so that SP comes in at a fixed rate. there is no REAL way of increasing how fast they come in. learning skills etc dont count because they are skills. There is nothing in game that you can actively do to gain SP. What you do when you play is make isk. or blow isk up. in general terms. SP arent a factor as to making you play. If i have a character with 2weeks left on a skill with my sub about to run out which i dont need to play for any reason as i already have my main going, Why should i have to pay. to have it sit there doing nothing for 2weeks untill i can use it for whatever purpose i want it for... then again if its like me. my second account is always subbed because i use it alot. SP arent eve's XP. Isk is. you earn it when you play. SP is just eve's way of throttling you so you cant powerlevel and become insanely better than other people at everything unless you put alot of time into the game. It works well. It also requires a hefty investment, into the game, of time and money to get into the larger and later on ships. in NO OTHER GAME do you have a predetermined Minimum amount of time you need to play just to get to a certain level. In WoW etc 2 people can start at the same time. 1 can non stop level and play nothing else and reach the max level wayyyy before the other guy who plays it casually does. This isnt the Case in EvE. This tbh wont effect me a Huge amount because i dont actively do it. What i do do, however, is take breaks from eve when it gets stale. i'll leave a skill going so if i feel like coming back at some point. I will have maybe something new to play with. It gives me a incentive to re-sub. This now just means that if i do stop again the incentives to re-sub are gonna be pretty slim as i'd be in the exact same situation as i was when i left. I do understand that people abuse this system to pay very little to create a Character they train up then sell for alot of iskies. This is lame on all accounts. But i dont think this is the solution to it. Your screwing alot of other people. Spraying badguys and hostages with a SMG instead of using a sniper rifle to pick em off 1by1 :( ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Like OMG LLAMA LLAMA LLAMA EVERYWHERE LLAMA OMG RAWR LLAMA
Kename Fin Caldari Dark Star Galactic Engineers	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:07:00 - [2277] Originally by: Joseph Snite I am actually not being cheap at all. I am just not paying for somthing I am not playing. How is that cheap? Just because I logged on one time and clicked one button, that justifies paying 15$? That's a good point. We are after all in a persistent universe. Should your market orders disappear when you go inactive? What about a research job you are running for your corporation? How do they get the BPO back?
Erimisha Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:08:00 - [2278] Originally by: Tir'in B'karra Silly to you because you've simply become used to ghost training. No other game lets you ghost train, and no one in those games whines and says that it's silly. It's not silly to have to -pay- for a -game- that you are benefiting from. Do you benefit from that character on your regular character? Yes. Therefore you should be paying to enjoy that character. What you're saying is absolutely silly. You're asking CCP if losing money they haven't lost yet is worth implementing a fix that they realized they need to fix. Fail much? What you're failing to understand that that people like him probably never would have gotten a second account in the first place if not for Ghost Training. In that situation CCP actually GAINED 6 months of subscription from him. You use the same logic as software companies when talking about how much they've lost to piracy. In that case they assume that everyone who pirated their software would have bought it. That is simply not true. So people like you and CCP think they "lost" 6 months of subscription due to 'ghost training' but in reality they got an additional 6 months of subs from him that they never would have gotten before.
Yeknom Nam	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:10:00 - [2279] Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: Soldur u must be a ccp alt Clearly it's time for the Eve Tinfoil Hat Drinking Game. You lose credibility to your argument by vehemently denying it.
IR Scoutar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:11:00 - [2280] Originally by: Catherine Frasier Originally by: IR Scoutar actualy i would call it intentional because... Sadly the word "intentional" already has a definition. thx for that up untill now i thought u where somebody with a diffrent possition you know somebody you can have a discussion with that however is no longer the case

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