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Terra Mikael
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.11.06 13:32:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Terra Mikael on 06/11/2008 13:34:58
With the current changes to missiles attributes, what is in plan for bombers?
Currently, from what I understand, cruise missiles, even with the stealth bomber's bonus, will be ineffective against frigates, and will not be doing enough damage to attack cruisers. What we're left, with, then, is a dead platform.
So, what's the plan?
I have three ideas, most of which have been on the forums for a while:
the first would involve making bombs a whole new type of missile - one similar in speed to the cruise missile, but with the current damage of a bomb. This would fix the problem of failed detonation upon cloaking or warping (if timed correctly). You would have to give them splash damage, much like torps had back in the day, so that they have a true area of devastation around the target.
This would go very far to prevent blobbing - who wouldn't be scared of being in a tight group if bombs really worked that well?
Another option is to go with the skillbook "bombers" that isn't public but is still in the database. It suggests that bomber's role it to use long range rockets that have a explosion radius bonus. If you went this route, you could drop the cloak, increase its resists, and adjust the PG and CPU appropriately - making it an effective anti frigate platform. However, This role is a bit of a strange one - an anti-frigate frigate isn't exactly unique or particularly needed (unless frigates become the bee all, end all after the patch). So it would need a secondary role - perhaps a target painting platform - which could aid in some of the changes that gone on in sisi.
The last option, which I think is by far the strangest, but would defiantly encourage fleets of bombers to hang together, would be to switch from cruises to torps, and keep a role bonus that includes torp speed and reduction in expl. radius.
This option would bring them in line against cruiser and larger craft, but would rule out one volleys since most of those ships can fit quite a bit of tank - so teamwork would be required to take down targets.
What do you think?
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Crellion
Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.06 13:54:00 -
[2]
The only way in which bombers would be a serious ship is if they had a class bonus effectively negating completely explosion velocity and explosion radius problems for all but the very tiniest of targets and the fastestof targets that would get a maximum of 50% reduction.
I have never failed to kill a stealh bomber in a ceptor in TQ. Ever.Let alone Sisy
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.06 15:05:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 06/11/2008 15:06:35
Originally by: Crellion
I have never failed to kill a stealh bomber in a ceptor in TQ. Ever.Let alone Sisy
Maybe it's because bombers are meant to be anti frig ships? Bombers are meant to be anti blob ships.
What ccp can start changing is:
-Give bombers the chance of launching BOTH bombs (ie 2 bombs within 2 secs just like the description of the luancher indicates) -Make it possible to fit 3 siege launchers + 1 bomb launcher -Make bombs not kill eachother eventhough they are not of same damage type by lowering the bombs own sig radius.
That would be a start. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |

Straight Chillen
Gallente Solar Wind
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Posted - 2008.11.06 15:41:00 -
[4]
Stealth bombers are gonna be better after the patch then theyve ever been. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |

The Vixen
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.06 15:52:00 -
[5]
Edited by: The Vixen on 06/11/2008 15:52:45 Stealth Bombers are not meant to be anti-frig ships. Cruise missiles are supposed to attack large targets. BC/BS. They will still do some damage to cruisers, but the objective is to have a ship that is agile, stealthy and not huge, but can still attack large ships. They were implemented, because at the time, the ONLY thing people PVP'd in were BS's. If you didnt fly a BS you were fail. SBs are broken on TQ atm, and hopefully the speed-revamp will put BS's closer to where they were intended to be.
People seriously need to quit complaining about ships and go back and READ the initial intentional design/role of the ship. 
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.11.06 16:23:00 -
[6]
Originally by: The Vixen Edited by: The Vixen on 06/11/2008 15:52:45 Stealth Bombers are not meant to be anti-frig ships. Cruise missiles are supposed to attack large targets. BC/BS. They will still do some damage to cruisers, but the objective is to have a ship that is agile, stealthy and not huge, but can still attack large ships. They were implemented, because at the time, the ONLY thing people PVP'd in were BS's. If you didnt fly a BS you were fail. SBs are broken on TQ atm, and hopefully the speed-revamp will put BS's closer to where they were intended to be.
People seriously need to quit complaining about ships and go back and READ the initial intentional design/role of the ship. 
I am very curios how you kill a t1 cruiser in a bomber ? like a Caracal f.e ? or a Vexor ?
an SB is a fat and slow frigate with low DPS (better than frig, but still not enough). --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.06 16:53:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
I am very curios how you kill a t1 cruiser in a bomber ? like a Caracal f.e ? or a Vexor ?
an SB is a fat and slow frigate with low DPS (better than frig, but still not enough).
Uhm he never said to solo a cruiser. And yeah a SB can quite easily kill a t1 cruiser if it is tackled by something else. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.11.06 16:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
I am very curios how you kill a t1 cruiser in a bomber ? like a Caracal f.e ? or a Vexor ?
an SB is a fat and slow frigate with low DPS (better than frig, but still not enough).
Uhm he never said to solo a cruiser. And yeah a SB can quite easily kill a t1 cruiser if it is tackled by something else.
well you can kill a titan given enough velators ... but that's not the point ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |

Takon Orlani
Caldari Chaos Monkeys
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Posted - 2008.11.06 17:04:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Takon Orlani on 06/11/2008 17:04:08 Hopefully we can get the bomber to be buffed or the missile changes as they are on SiSi will NOT roll over in their current form. I can only hope for the latter. Missiles suck for pvp as it is, they don't need to suck any more. Frigates, interceptors, and the vaga aside, no ship should be able to outrun missiles fired from a missile spec'd ship.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.06 17:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Takon Orlani Edited by: Takon Orlani on 06/11/2008 17:04:08 Hopefully we can get the bomber to be buffed or the missile changes as they are on SiSi will NOT roll over in their current form. I can only hope for the latter. Missiles suck for pvp as it is, they don't need to suck any more. Frigates, interceptors, and the vaga aside, no ship should be able to outrun missiles fired from a missile spec'd ship.
First you imply that you know how things work on sisi by saying that you hope the changes on sisi won't be implemented and then you imply that missiles can be outrun by ships. Interceptors can't outrun light missiles on sisi, cruisers can't outrun heavy missiles on sisi, battleships can't outrun cruise missiles on sisi. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
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WasahB
GL Armaments The Cool Kids Club
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Posted - 2008.11.06 19:34:00 -
[11]
Originally by: The Vixen Edited by: The Vixen on 06/11/2008 15:52:45 Stealth Bombers are not meant to be anti-frig ships. Cruise missiles are supposed to attack large targets. BC/BS. They will still do some damage to cruisers, but the objective is to have a ship that is agile, stealthy and not huge, but can still attack large ships. They were implemented, because at the time, the ONLY thing people PVP'd in were BS's. If you didnt fly a BS you were fail. SBs are broken on TQ atm, and hopefully the speed-revamp will put BS's closer to where they were intended to be.
People seriously need to quit complaining about ships and go back and READ the initial intentional design/role of the ship. 
http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/covertops/caldari/12032.asp "In addition, stealth bombers' extremely advanced missile navigation subroutines are able to triangulate a cruise missile's trajectory in advance, resulting in a decreased factor of signature radius and making the missile more effective against smaller targets."
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.11.06 19:41:00 -
[12]
Edited by: GateScout on 06/11/2008 19:41:41
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Interceptors can't outrun light missiles on sisi, cruisers can't outrun heavy missiles on sisi, battleships can't outrun cruise missiles on sisi.
Light missile explosion velocity is somewhere around 250m/s on SiSi right now (w/ decent skills....IIRC).
Max velocity? Less than 5km/sec....with skills...
I think most ceptor pilots will be able to outrun lights....and even if they cannot, they won't take any damage from them.
Below is a screenshot from SiSi. Check out that explosion velocity. 
EDIT: As for Stealth Bombers... Post-patch they will be generally worthless...unless they are buffed some way.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.06 21:12:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
I am very curios how you kill a t1 cruiser in a bomber ? like a Caracal f.e ? or a Vexor ?
an SB is a fat and slow frigate with low DPS (better than frig, but still not enough).
Uhm he never said to solo a cruiser. And yeah a SB can quite easily kill a t1 cruiser if it is tackled by something else.
well you can kill a titan given enough velators ... but that's not the point ...
But you accused him of saying a bombers would kill a T1 cruiser when he didn't. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.06 21:13:00 -
[14]
Originally by: GateScout Edited by: GateScout on 06/11/2008 19:41:41
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Interceptors can't outrun light missiles on sisi, cruisers can't outrun heavy missiles on sisi, battleships can't outrun cruise missiles on sisi.
Light missile explosion velocity is somewhere around 250m/s on SiSi right now (w/ decent skills....IIRC).
Max velocity? Less than 5km/sec....with skills...
I think most ceptor pilots will be able to outrun lights....and even if they cannot, they won't take any damage from them.
Below is a screenshot from SiSi. Check out that explosion velocity. 
EDIT: As for Stealth Bombers... Post-patch they will be generally worthless...unless they are buffed some way.
LIGHT MISSILES HIT FRIGATES. DO NOT LIE. The person I quoted said that missiles are outrun on sisi. It is a blatant lie. End of story. Your explosion velocities have nothing to do with it. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |

The Vixen
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.06 21:42:00 -
[15]
Originally by: WasahB
Originally by: The Vixen Edited by: The Vixen on 06/11/2008 15:52:45 Stealth Bombers are not meant to be anti-frig ships. Cruise missiles are supposed to attack large targets. BC/BS. They will still do some damage to cruisers, but the objective is to have a ship that is agile, stealthy and not huge, but can still attack large ships. They were implemented, because at the time, the ONLY thing people PVP'd in were BS's. If you didnt fly a BS you were fail. SBs are broken on TQ atm, and hopefully the speed-revamp will put BS's closer to where they were intended to be.
People seriously need to quit complaining about ships and go back and READ the initial intentional design/role of the ship. 
http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/covertops/caldari/12032.asp "In addition, stealth bombers' extremely advanced missile navigation subroutines are able to triangulate a cruise missile's trajectory in advance, resulting in a decreased factor of signature radius and making the missile more effective against smaller targets."
"In addition, stealth bombers' extremely advanced missile navigation subroutines are able to triangulate a cruise missile's trajectory in advance, resulting in a decreased factor of signature radius and making the missile more effective against smaller targets."
MORE effective. Not MOST effective. Learn English. In otherwords, cruise missiles have a hard time hitting anything moving, but the bonus to SB's make them LESS likely to miss completely. That sentence does not say, "STEALTH BOMBERS ARE MOST EFFECTIVE AGAINST SMALLER TARGETS [IE SHUTTLES AND FRIGS"
I love it when people try to be a smart-ass but they end up being a dumb-ass.
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The Vixen
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.06 21:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: The Vixen Edited by: The Vixen on 06/11/2008 15:52:45 Stealth Bombers are not meant to be anti-frig ships. Cruise missiles are supposed to attack large targets. BC/BS. They will still do some damage to cruisers, but the objective is to have a ship that is agile, stealthy and not huge, but can still attack large ships. They were implemented, because at the time, the ONLY thing people PVP'd in were BS's. If you didnt fly a BS you were fail. SBs are broken on TQ atm, and hopefully the speed-revamp will put BS's closer to where they were intended to be.
People seriously need to quit complaining about ships and go back and READ the initial intentional design/role of the ship. 
I am very curios how you kill a t1 cruiser in a bomber ? like a Caracal f.e ? or a Vexor ?
an SB is a fat and slow frigate with low DPS (better than frig, but still not enough).
Yeah, because this game is entirely focused on 1on1 ship fighting. Why does everyone boil arguments down to 1v1. What is the actual percentage that ANY fight starts (AND ENDS) 1v1. This game is about creating dynamic fleets, finding the edge, taking the higher ground and outsmarting your enemies... not enemy.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.06 22:01:00 -
[17]
Quote: This game is about creating dynamic fleets, finding the edge, taking the higher ground and outsmarting your enemies... not enemy.
Waiting to get fleet together, getting on TS, becoming an extended drone for some FC whos shucking and jiveing with an enemy FC's blob for 15 systems. Blobbing up in other words.
Gee, a Nul-seccers dream come true.
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The Vixen
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.06 22:05:00 -
[18]
Edited by: The Vixen on 06/11/2008 22:05:00
Originally by: Soporo
Quote: This game is about creating dynamic fleets, finding the edge, taking the higher ground and outsmarting your enemies... not enemy.
Waiting to get fleet together, getting on TS, becoming an extended drone for some FC whos shucking and jiveing with an enemy FC's blob for 15 systems. Blobbing up in other words.
Gee, a Nul-seccers dream come true.
Yup, you just defined the other end of the spectrum from non-1v1. Because, that's how I spend my EVE-life. Seriously, what is the point of absolute-extreme examples? Apparently you can't group-PVP without having a blob, who is all on TS/vent taking orders from a fleet commander.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.11.06 22:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
LIGHT MISSILES HIT FRIGATES. DO NOT LIE. The person I quoted said that missiles are outrun on sisi. It is a blatant lie. End of story. Your explosion velocities have nothing to do with it.
Lie? WTF are you talking about?
First of all, you were talking about interceptors...not frigs.
Let me remind you:
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Interceptors can't outrun light missiles on sisi, cruisers can't outrun heavy missiles on sisi, battleships can't outrun cruise missiles on sisi.
Secondly, the default max velocity of a light missile is 3,750m/s. Anything that goes faster than that will outrun that missile. Can a ceptor on SiSi exceed 5km/sec? Yep.
Thirdly, explosion velocity is important as it doesn't matter if a ship cannot, in fact, outrun a missile if it doesn't do any damage.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.11.06 23:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
LIGHT MISSILES HIT FRIGATES. DO NOT LIE. The person I quoted said that missiles are outrun on sisi. It is a blatant lie. End of story. Your explosion velocities have nothing to do with it.
Lie? WTF are you talking about?
First of all, you were talking about interceptors...not frigs.
Let me remind you:
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Interceptors can't outrun light missiles on sisi, cruisers can't outrun heavy missiles on sisi, battleships can't outrun cruise missiles on sisi.
Secondly, the default max velocity of a light missile is 3,750m/s. Anything that goes faster than that will outrun that missile. Can a ceptor on SiSi exceed 5km/sec? Yep.
Thirdly, explosion velocity is important as it doesn't matter if a ship cannot, in fact, outrun a missile if it doesn't do any damage.
You are wrong and you are digging your own grave. You're just proving to everyone that you haven't been on sisi or are just making up reasons to whine.
1. Max velocity of a light missile is modified by skills 2. Orbit speed of an inty realistically (ie, no snakes and comedy pure speed fits) more like 4km/s on sisi and is below max light missile speed 3. The missile damage formula has been altered: read and weep 4. A light missile actually does around 20-30% of its max damage on an average inty in orbit. This can be boosted by ship bonuses and/or rigs also.
Ofc you wouldnt know all these things because you are talking out of your ass but we already knew that. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
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Takon Orlani
Caldari Chaos Monkeys
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Posted - 2008.11.06 23:22:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Takon Orlani on 06/11/2008 23:22:12 Intys can effectively reduce the amount of damage received from light missiles to manageable levels, making them ineffective in a role they once had. Intys SHOULD be afraid of light missiles, especially precision lights. The range of ships fit for PVP that USE these T2 missiles is VERY LIMITED. Most ships can fit standard launchers if they have a slot, but only a few work WELL while fitting them. These SPECIALIZED MISSILE SHIPS need to be able to kill things with their weapons. This includes... STEALTH BOMBERS.
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Col Callahan
Caldari Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.11.07 02:46:00 -
[22]
Singed/ missiles now fail at everything. now I have to train guns, grrrrr. _
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.11.07 04:10:00 -
[23]
Edited by: GateScout on 07/11/2008 04:13:33
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
1. Max velocity of a light missile is modified by skills 2. Orbit speed of an inty realistically (ie, no snakes and comedy pure speed fits) more like 4km/s on sisi and is below max light missile speed 3. The missile damage formula has been altered: read and weep 4. A light missile actually does around 20-30% of its max damage on an average inty in orbit. This can be boosted by ship bonuses and/or rigs also.
SO now we're talking about interceptors that are orbiting? Not Frigs any more? Not just ceptors? Not about out running missiles? Make up your ****ing mind! 
LOL. You keep changing the question.
I'm not whining about anything, you imbecile. Your reading comprehension skills are seriously lacking.
Bottom line: Interceptors can still out run light missiles on SiSi right now. 4km/sec? Easy.
Keep trying though.... At least you're entertaining. 
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Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2008.11.07 05:00:00 -
[24]
I can't believe I'm saying this...but after QR is released with this gawdawful missile nerf...
I will be agreeing with Merin that SB's are truly worthless...
</3 SBs, R.I.P.
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Murk Loar
Polytope
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Posted - 2008.11.07 07:04:00 -
[25]
I refuse to accept it =(
At least make bombs usable in low sec if this is the case.I know,gate guns and all...but at least it's still useful for 'something' other than watching a gate. |

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.11.07 07:15:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
I am very curios how you kill a t1 cruiser in a bomber ? like a Caracal f.e ? or a Vexor ?
an SB is a fat and slow frigate with low DPS (better than frig, but still not enough).
Uhm he never said to solo a cruiser. And yeah a SB can quite easily kill a t1 cruiser if it is tackled by something else.
well you can kill a titan given enough velators ... but that's not the point ...
But you accused him of saying a bombers would kill a T1 cruiser when he didn't.
no ... you are putting words in my mouth I did not say ... reread my post ...
I never said solo.
Pre nerf, the SB could alpha certain frigate hulls if done right. Or kill bigger targets in larger numbers. Post nerf, it will not be able to kill frigs unless they don't move and the number of bombers needed to kill larger targets will increase due to new missile damage formula ...
Right now on TQ, bombers are very niche ships, they are difficult to fly and have a limited set of targets but still they offer some fun. Post nerf, they will be in the "don't bother" category. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |

Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.11.07 07:19:00 -
[27]
Originally by: The Vixen
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: The Vixen Edited by: The Vixen on 06/11/2008 15:52:45 Stealth Bombers are not meant to be anti-frig ships. Cruise missiles are supposed to attack large targets. BC/BS. They will still do some damage to cruisers, but the objective is to have a ship that is agile, stealthy and not huge, but can still attack large ships. They were implemented, because at the time, the ONLY thing people PVP'd in were BS's. If you didnt fly a BS you were fail. SBs are broken on TQ atm, and hopefully the speed-revamp will put BS's closer to where they were intended to be.
People seriously need to quit complaining about ships and go back and READ the initial intentional design/role of the ship. 
I am very curios how you kill a t1 cruiser in a bomber ? like a Caracal f.e ? or a Vexor ?
an SB is a fat and slow frigate with low DPS (better than frig, but still not enough).
Yeah, because this game is entirely focused on 1on1 ship fighting. Why does everyone boil arguments down to 1v1. What is the actual percentage that ANY fight starts (AND ENDS) 1v1. This game is about creating dynamic fleets, finding the edge, taking the higher ground and outsmarting your enemies... not enemy.
Where in my reply do you see "solo" or "1on1" ??? Ah yes, nowhere ...
You dynamic fleet world is quite dull. And even then, there is not advantage of taking a bomber, a HML caracal will do better in every case ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |

Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.11.07 07:37:00 -
[28]
My concern is if they nerf Stealth Bombers, then the Black Ops boost is going to be for naught, because now the ships that are supposed to be used BY the Black Ops are going to suck, thereby reducing the need for the Black Ops.
Grrr >=|
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Murk Loar
Polytope
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Posted - 2008.11.07 07:51:00 -
[29]
On a side note,I decided to test against some NPCs (I know..NPCs) with a Manti.
Still instapops the frigs and now Im instapopping the destroyers where as before it was taking 2 volleys for them,NPC BCs are now dropping in 4 volleys as opposed to 5.Damage seems to up per missile from what I can tell but I may be wrong. |

Tsabrock
Gallente Circle of Friends
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Posted - 2008.11.07 17:47:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Murk Loar On a side note,I decided to test against some NPCs (I know..NPCs) with a Manti.
Still instapops the frigs and now Im instapopping the destroyers where as before it was taking 2 volleys for them,NPC BCs are now dropping in 4 volleys as opposed to 5.Damage seems to up per missile from what I can tell but I may be wrong.
I did some testing a few days ago in my Nemesis versus some baby NPC rats, and I had the opposite observation. The frigates I destroyed were averaging about 1 more missile to kill than before, and I was not able to insta-pop anything at all. Granted, my missile skills are not the strongest (I'm more of a gunner/drone user), but the difference was noticeable. Also, no implants, and a mix of 'Arbalest' Cruise Launchers and a T2 Ballistic Control Mod.
I wonder (and can hope) that things may have been improved over the last few days. I'll have to check this out when I get home from work. --- AMD 64 4400+ X2 (Dual-Core) 4GB Corsair XMS Memory (2336) ASUS A8N-SLI Premium (1.09 Bios) GeForce 7800GTX 256 Megs; eVGA brand Windows XP Pro and Vista Ultimate 64-bit (Dual-Boot) |
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