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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.01.25 18:25:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 25/01/2009 18:26:04
 Originally by: Zeveron
Quote:
@Zeveron: You might want your titan to pwn everything and 1 shot a dread but thats not for you decide. If you want solo-pwn-mobile go play WOW, we are discussing here how titans should get fixed. You think removing the dd and giving the titan the ability to 1 shot everything is balanced? Either join the discussion and post something useful or please just leave.
I dont want to be a solo pwn mobile and I am not a solo pwn mobile atm.
The pwn mobile for the game is the blob and not the titans.
Anyway I dont see how my suggestion is gona be what you say here.
1x voley a dread while in a siege mode is not a big thing.
If I can lock 7 bs (while in siege) and kill them all 7 with each of my guns/launchers is not a big thing.
A titan should be able to tank atleast 20x sieged dreads.
To kill a titan you should put the same efford a titan pilot puts to DD in planing and not just bring 400 ppl or 3-4 dreads and a hic.
You should also take the same risks a titan pilot takes, to use his ship.
Atm titans are underpowered, for the isk they cost.
Yes ofc if the conditions met they can pwn a big fleet, but that requires a lot of planning and sometimes big balls.
Last DD I fired while jumping 3 titans in a system it could go complitely wrong for what? 30-35 kills.
I love how you throw around numbers that 99.9% of the eve population has or will never, experience.
35 kills in one go? ****, that's a solid week of roaming for alot of people.
20 Seiged dreads? SO you want the Titan to be stronger than a POS?
I agree that they need staying power so that they can actually have a presence in a fight. I say turning them into temporary stations is the answer. Stations that have guns and require removing the hostile (attacking) fleets POS's, just like they're doing to you guys.
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Friends Forever |
z0rb4
Dead Flesh Corp
Rigor Mortis Mortalis
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:35:00 -
[92]
Possible solutions arising under my skullcap (still crude ideas):
- Let's the DDD give a huge (100 mils unresisted or some similar figure) damage distributed among "participants" :-).
This has the side effect of encouraging blobbing to add "collective tank", but forces DD owning alliances to stack, and thus risk, more titans in a sys/grid.
I know this strategy further encourages blobbing, but IMHO people's ability to stick together HAS to grant an advantage.
This is the way it works, i.e., in wildlife,phisics,antropology and every multiplayer game I know.
or
- Have the DDD deal a more reasonable amount of damage (10-30 mils or something similar, i'm not the right one to tune these values) but let the damage to be progressively absorbed by closer/and/or/larger ships, then by farther/and/or/smaller ones and so on (when one ship pops, the next one is chosen based on a criteria i have to imagine yet) until damage "depletes".
In simpler words: you don't have a grid-wide super-smartbomb able to kill untanked BS and unable to kill caps with a single strike, but a death touch jumping through a pre-guessable list of victims until it's exausted.
Lossess, and thus DDD effectiveness, are basically granted, but you can somehow counter it (for instance prepare several dedicated ships with cheap but specific fittings on board to act as a flesh wall).
In both these ways you "linearize" the relation between the number of titans involved and the damage suffered by DDDed fleets.
With current implementation, trepassing certain thresholds causes some form of aberration which deters people from bringing dread/carriers due to the insta-capital-pop risk involved...
Third proposal is slightly different...
- Let the DDD his current, indiscriminate effect, but progressively, and temporarily, "immunize" surviving ships to the effects of subsequents DDDings....(maybe do it based on the damage type of unleashed DDD. Dunno, implementation details aren't being taken in account here).
The opposite solution is also viable (albeit less safe): when a titan gets hit by multiple DDs, every subsequent strike hurts more (i don't know if when now you DD your own titan is hit by the blast, but imho it should be...).
Doh, a wall of text. Sry... :-)
Regards
z0rb4
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Zarak1 Kenpach1
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:44:00 -
[93]
just make the titans more vulnerable to reprisals after the fact. i know there is a mechanic in place already but perhaps something else is in order. titans could be made so that when they active their ddd's they not only are unjumpable for 2 hours but they can no longer tank massive ammounts of damage due to rerouting their power to offensive capabilities. kinda like a sieged mode with adverse effects instead of increasing tank they no longer can jump and they cannot rep or be repped for the 2 hours they cannot jump. however this still gives the titan pilot the ability to warp to a safe spot and cloak or get inside a pos shield. i dunno its a rough idea and i fully expect it to be ripped apart by the dev trolls. oh yeah perhaps the loss of the jump bridge and cloning capability too.
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Zarak1 Kenpach1
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.01.26 03:46:00 -
[94]
this will NOT decrease titan blobs but it will make your titan fleet open to a counter attack by the opposing factions titan fleet. so this whole nonsense about a titan blob not being able to be taken out becomes moot, little term called Mutually assured destruction.
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Ocih
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.26 06:30:00 -
[95]
Titans aren't the problem. EvE player base is the problem.
Unbridaled destruction and no sportsmanship PvP all in the name of a 'harsh and cold' game have translated in to titan blobbing. BoB has had Titan fleets for years. They never abused them. They used them to defend thier space. As pointed out, when you have 20 titans and a Jammer, it removes systems from working EvE. Be BoB or don't go there but that's another issue.
Using Titans as slaughter machines would get any power in any social situation atrocity flag and they would have the whole world unite against them. In EvE? Suck it up, adapt or die. Excuses to justify unsanctionable acts.
I want -A- and BoB and Morsus Mihi and CVA and anyone else who can make one to have titans. I just want there to be a price if you turn them in to a slaughter machine and an I win button. If ten doomsdays go off in Stain in 20 minutes, bring in a couple of True Sansha Titans and a few dozen dreads that kill everything that moves. If it's all about the slaughter, slaughter away. Just let the people who have let Titans go to thier heads know, there is always a bigger fish. |
Zeveron
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.26 10:42:00 -
[96]
Quote:
I love how you throw around numbers that 99.9% of the eve population has or will never, experience.
35 kills in one go? ****, that's a solid week of roaming for alot of people.
As a side note I am making lots and lots more kills with my regular alts than with my titan.
Quote:
20 Seiged dreads? SO you want the Titan to be stronger than a POS?
Yes, but you took out a line of what I said in that context.
Tldr version for you:
Remove DD, give me guns, each of them can 1x shoot a bs and all 7 of them can 1x voley a dread. Give me faster loking time and a lot better tank.
That could be done with a titan siege, which gona make me unmovable for 10 mins.
Bring the fire power and kill me.
100 dreads vs 5 titans engagement gona end in like 40 dreads dead for 1 titan kill.
I can live with that :-)
My hole point is if you wana kill a titan you have to pay for it also. Loose some dreads or a bunch of bss.
The problem with titans is not a problem with the ship it self but with the game and players mentality.
The same what happened a year ago with bss, happening now with dreads and gona happen in the future with titans.
If you guys think that concetrate fire is wrong (which I agree it is) it should happen with all the ship classes and not only titans.
The main problem I see atm with titans is only DD while in a cyno jammed system, but you can counter it with current game mechanics. Its tough but its doable. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.27 17:48:00 -
[97]
I'm sorry I missed something.. who has 24 titans, can field them all, and what server are they on?
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Murina
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:44:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Barbara Nichole
and what server are they on?
Is anybody else very scared of this person?. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.27 18:46:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Barbara Nichole
I'm sorry I missed something.. who has 24 titans, can field them all, and what server are they on?
Now that AAA decided to join the ranks of BoB Pets, they can theoretically put together a fleet of 35 titans, on Tranquility |
DarkRavin
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.01.29 11:18:00 -
[100]
Edited by: DarkRavin on 29/01/2009 11:19:22
Hell I got a fix to the titan. It was already put into the fraction war book. Page 498, 9 sentence down from top of page:
"But then her ship began to glow in an eerie whitish hue; bolts of lighting encircled the entire vessel from bow to stern as it erupted into a blinding light."
"... A blue-white lighting lashed out from the radiance. striking the Ragnarok titan and then arcing like a spreading plague to every other ship in the fleet. Blinded by the brillant flash, the pilot wrenched the control stick backwards, pulling his craft away from the towering capital ship ahead. Horrified to the core of his soul, he watched the bolt as it leaped from ship to ship; he saw as bubble auras of shields coruscate from white to fiery red as their defences turned inwards, directing their repulsice forces towards the very hulls they were designed to protect; most shatterd instantly while others were left hopelessly crippled.
Before the pilot's eyes, the great Ragnarok began to break apart..."
See the amarr already have a super weapon. It can kill a titan and a fleet. To boot it can be fitted on a Abaddon. Only down side to use it is you loose the Abaddon :)
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Some people are alive only because it's illegal to kill them. |
Bonny Lee
Caldari
The Guardian Agency
Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2009.01.29 12:17:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Zeveron
Remove DD, give me guns, each of them can 1x shoot a bs and all 7 of them can 1x voley a dread. Give me faster loking time and a lot better tank.
That could be done with a titan siege, which gona make me unmovable for 10 mins.
Bring the fire power and kill me.
100 dreads vs 5 titans engagement gona end in like 40 dreads dead for 1 titan kill.
I can live with that :-)
Are you insane??? Every post of you pro-titan shows that you think your titan should be a pwn mobile. I now cant think any of your ideas to be good after suggesting such a crap. |
Zeveron
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.29 13:48:00 -
[102]
Quote:
Are you insane??? Every post of you pro-titan shows that you think your titan should be a pwn mobile. I now cant think any of your ideas to be good after suggesting such a crap.
You whine about the DD in its current state.
I offer you a solution which is not killing hunderts of ships with 1 button press and you think thats more insane. With my solution the titan is gona be an overpowered dread. To use his powers it should enter siege and stay there for 10 mins.
If you want to kill it bring the fire power to kill it and suffer the losses.
The same thing happens in big cap fights, so I dont get it why its insane?
I think you just want titans sitting at posses, looking preaty and doing jump bridges when the blobs of [enter ship type here] conquers eve :-)
What you suggesting btw?
Pls whatever you suggest should be not only for titans but for all ship classes, since titans are just ships, but a lot bigger. |
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.01.29 16:56:00 -
[103]
Yeh Zeveron - i think when you were growing up you had heavy toys on high shelves.
So you changed DD (kill everything under BS in 1 DD, use 3 DD to kill everything under cap) and want it to changed into:
kill 1 BS per gun (thus 6-8 BS/salvo x3 titans = 18-24 BS/salvo = 100 bs in a minute?)
kill 1 dread per titan salvo (1-3 per 1-3 titand = 12 dreads per minute).
And what happens when we bring 5 titans? or 10? Suddenly it becomes way more overpowered than it is now.
Sorry but if you want to give ANY ideas better think em over. Oh wait - you are a titan pilot IIRC? Explains a LOT. |
Zeveron
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.29 19:29:00 -
[104]
yeah but to be that powerfull the titans should stay in siege.
And belive me they die fast to dreads.
So you loose some bss and dreads but you get a titan kill.
Your choise to risk it, titan pilots choise to risk his ship to kill some bss and/or dreads.
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.29 19:41:00 -
[105]
but there won't be dreads with cyno jammers in systems |
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.01.29 22:22:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Zeveron
yeah but to be that powerfull the titans should stay in siege.
And belive me they die fast to dreads.
So you loose some bss and dreads but you get a titan kill.
Your choise to risk it, titan pilots choise to risk his ship to kill some bss and/or dreads.
So if 150 BS engage cyno jammer you siege 3 titans at other side of grid and happily pop everything. Even easier than with 3x DD.
Seriously you need to start using your brain. |
Jas Dor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.01.29 23:55:00 -
[107]
There's no good way to fix a DDD:
Currently, engagements don't happen because, "they'll just drop a DDD on us." Not to mention that two extremely well placed double DDD blasts basically brought the invasion of Fountain to a halt. That's just a bit to much power for one ship.
Making a Titan a Super Dread seems like a good idea in isolation, until you consider the fire power that a 5-10 Titan fleet would have.
Having the Titan do 500,000,000 damage to everything on grid, including the Titan (i.e. one shot nuke) is imbalanced as sieged dreads would give 100% certain kills. (120 capship kills anyone).
The kind of institutionalized power that Titans gives the major alliances in this game has caused CCP to implement new space that is explicitly capship free. Clearly this is a problem.
About the only way to nerf Titans are either to remove the DDD entirely or introduce some ship type bigger then a battleship and smaller then a dread that can live through a multiple DDD blast. |
Dianeces
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.30 00:31:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Jas Dor
The kind of institutionalized power that Titans gives the major alliances in this game has caused CCP to implement new space that is explicitly capship free.
Actually...it isn't. Capital-free, that is. |
Zeveron
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.30 07:35:00 -
[109]
Quote:
So if 150 BS engage cyno jammer you siege 3 titans at other side of grid and happily pop everything. Even easier than with 3x DD.
Seriously you need to start using your brain.
150 bss can kill a titan b4 they get popped, there is your titan kill.
Good trade off, a titan for 150 bss, you dont have to takle it either while in siege.
Btw I dont like that solution, now that my brain works.....
DD is just fine, if you wana nerf concentrate fire, nerf it for all ship classes and not only titans.
Maybe introduce a capital ship (like I mentioned b4) which can survive multiple DDs, can jump in jammed systems and tackle at DD range.
Then bring the gear to get your titan kill. |
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.01.30 07:48:00 -
[110]
Or maybe just remove DD and change titans into what they were SUPPOSED (via old devblogs and stuff) to do: mobile bases, logistics tools?
Atm only "role" thing they do is jump portal. And its quite obvious every titan did less portals than it fired "last resort weapons" in its lifetime.
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Zeveron
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.30 16:35:00 -
[111]
yeah and let the 400-500 bs blobs take over.
And after a year the 400-500 dread blobs take over.
You see the patent here.
You cannot counter the blob exept with DD or if you nerf concentrate fire.
If there is gona be such a nerf for every other ship class then i ll accept 1 for titans.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.01.30 17:30:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 30/01/2009 17:30:24
So your idea is: let titan blobs take over in 2 years. great thinking.
So when you will start whining to ccp for a ship to instakill "titan blobs"?
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.30 19:47:00 -
[113]
Lets not lose focus here
There many be many interesting ways of redesigning titan roles and weapons. But the simplest and fastest way of restoring some form of balance is to prevent multiple DDD's in scope of 15 minutes.
If people are smart, they can choose to fit their ships to tank 1 DDD, but nobody can do anything about multiple DDDs. There should a 15 min DDD delay timer per grid - not even per system. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.30 19:57:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Zeveron
yeah and let the 400-500 bs blobs take over.
And after a year the 400-500 dread blobs take over.
You see the patent here.
You cannot counter the blob exept with DD or if you nerf concentrate fire.
If there is gona be such a nerf for every other ship class then i ll accept 1 for titans.
Before CCP completely neutralized nanos, nanocruisers were the best counters to blobs. It was the case that a much smaller fleet of nanoships could take on a much larger blob of fleet bs.
Also, clear your mind, and think about this:
Imagine 2 armies, standing just out of shooting range of each other. Then, they both move forward - in the shooting range. Suddenly, 1 army commander tells all his people to shoot 1 guy from the enemy's army. The whole army shooting that 1 guy, killing him instantly. Then the commander calls out another name, and another.
Meanwhile, the opposing side does not tell their people to shoot 1 specific guy. Everybody shoots whoever they can.
Who will win the battle? |
Zeveron
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.30 21:14:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 30/01/2009 17:30:24
So your idea is: let titan blobs take over in 2 years. great thinking.
So when you will start whining to ccp for a ship to instakill "titan blobs"?
the main problem of the game is that ppl insta pop in fleet engagements.
20-30 bs can insta pop a bs. 20-30 dreads can insta pop a carrier or a dread.
That has nothing to do with ship sizes but with game design.
Atm the only counter agains major blobs is the DD and to say better the multy DD.
If you dont see the problem of the game design you should look better.
Ephemeron the only flaw in your logic is that RL ppl dont have HPs.
So in RL the best shooter or the 1 army with better weapons would win and thats not the case in eve. |
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.01.30 21:22:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Zeveron
If you dont see the problem of the game design you should look better.
There is a problem with blob mechanics but DD is NOT an answer. You can bring blob too and fight on equal ground instead of hiding behind "i click, you die". Plus i (and guess not only me) prefer to die to 100bs as a primary rather than to titan DD. |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.30 21:25:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Zeveron
Atm the only counter agains major blobs is the DD and to say better the multy DD.
If you dont see the problem of the game design you should look better.
Ephemeron the only flaw in your logic is that RL ppl dont have HPs.
So in RL the best shooter or the 1 army with better weapons would win and thats not the case in eve.
1st point: titans have been in game for a while now, there's over 100 titans in game right now. Did you notice, in the past year, that blob warfare has decreased in comparison to the time before titans? Can you honestly see any pattern of inverse relationship between size of fleet battles and number of titans in game?
I do not see any such pattern. I see a slow but steady increase in number and size of blobs. And that pattern is fueled partly by increasing number of players in game and increased Node capacity. Titans don't seem to make even a dent in that increase.
So no, whatever titans are doing, they are not countering the blobs. The blobs are still here, bigger and juicier than before.
2nd point: I did not mean to draw similaries between RL battle to EVE. In fact I was pointing out a difference. This difference is product of game design. There's something in the way EVE designed that creates unrealistic combat scenarios - things that would be completely impractical in real life. I think that is a weakness of design. What I'm suggesting is that RL combat strategy offers greater fun and balance than what EVE offers. EVE should try shift balance to that of more realistic (more common sense) combat strategies because those are simply more fun than what we have now. |
SecHaul
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Posted - 2009.01.30 22:27:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Ephemeron
2nd point: I did not mean to draw similaries between RL battle to EVE. In fact I was pointing out a difference. This difference is product of game design. There's something in the way EVE designed that creates unrealistic combat scenarios - things that would be completely impractical in real life. I think that is a weakness of design. What I'm suggesting is that RL combat strategy offers greater fun and balance than what EVE offers. EVE should try shift balance to that of more realistic (more common sense) combat strategies because those are simply more fun than what we have now.
I couldn't agree more. The problem is that in real life there will always be 'human' forces to keep super powers in check, for example, the development of nuclear weapons. If that race kept going, you would have ended up with a world ending weapon / war. EVE doesn't have the checks and balances, so the moment CCP made the Titan available it was just a matter of time before people took it to an extreme. I honestly cannot think of a worst game decision than a DDD.
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Liana Carvian
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Posted - 2009.01.31 06:21:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Liana Carvian on 31/01/2009 06:24:22
Alright originally Titans could DD through cynos, this got changed.
Now people are not complaining about the capabilities of the DD, but the number of titans which can be fielded. So there is actually an easy way to fix that, write a script that basically checks to see if a DD has been launched in the last 10 minutes on a grid, if it has the Titan enters a siege like mode where it can't move or be repped for 10 minutes.
Yes you could still take the 15 Titans and put them on grid to DD a whole capital fleet, but that hostile fleet now has 10 minutes where 14 of those Titans are very very vulnerable.
Now personally I don't think this is a major issue yet, as currently we have yet to see a capital fleet DDed by Titans. Now lets say you use those 15 Titans to DD a 100 man dread fleet (remember this hasn't been done yet), 14 Titans @ 37B each (518B isk) to blow up... lets say 120B of capitals... Now lets say something happens, and your hostile fleet (who better know you have 14 Titans in system) warp in 5 or 6 HICs, scramming all your titans, drop a cyno, and bring in another 25 dreads (we are at 125 dreads total if you can't count).
--- yes I am an alt ---
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Zeveron
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.31 08:41:00 -
[120]
The blobs are there bcs the population increased.
There gona be more blobs in count and in size while game population increasing more.
Atm titans force the blob to split (jump through different gates or portals or jump at a later point etc). So titans are the only way (unless I am missing somthing) who force the blob to split.
They are tactical weapons to change the outcome off an engagement while the oponent uses the I-Win button of this game atm, the BLOB.
If ccp nerfs concentrate fire they should nerf it for all ship classes, and I ll agree with that.
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