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Making ISK....Way too easy?

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Enthral	Posted - 2009.01.12 02:45:00 - [31] Yes and no. For some people, their only goal is to make isk. That's it. Just mine to make isk. Build to make isk. Mission run to make isk. For them, making isk appears easy, because the only time they spend any of it is to help them make more isk. For others, isk is just a means to PvP. For them, making isk is a big pain in the rear. Every isk they earn is funneled into ships, modules and ammo to PvP. What takes them two or three days of grinding away at missions can be lost in just a few hours of PvP. So really I think it all depends on perspective. -Enthral
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.12 04:17:00 - [32] its not too easy to make isk, its too easy to save it, they need to bring out more isk sinks that dont suck! like ships attachments that are bought though npc sellers (and that refine into minerals etc so not to screw the market) and other such things that take isk out of the game rather than just spreading it around
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.12 04:29:00 - [33] The fact that hisec ISK making matches lowsec and 0.0 ISK making is the problem. Making ISK pretty fast is fine, as long as you have to defend your right to do so.
Shirley Serious Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.01.12 04:31:00 - [34] I think it depends on what kind of game Eve is supposed to be. If it's only inconvenience of fitting new ships that's a drawback, then Eve becomes a game where there's not much players can point at as an achievement, except kills/deaths, which will eventually get boring. But on the other extreme, having losses be really expensive increases the proportion of time spent on earning compared to spending. This promotes metagaming - noob alt scouts, logoffs, etc. and general lack of risk taking. It's no big deal to lose a day's income on taking a chance. When it's a month's income, it's more serious. And it also makes established organisations more secure, as new ones cannot build up a large reserve to fund a major push. That also gets boring eventually.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.12 05:04:00 - [35] Originally by: Bo'Tox Originally by: Tippia If that's happening, why don't we have inflation? We do.. Havent you heard the screams over the last few years about: - tritanium prices - GTC prices - insert other FOTM ship or module... No we don't. Haven't you heard the the reports from EyjoG? Either way, no, it's not too easy to make ISK, but it just might be (for example) too hard to lose it once you have it, which is why I posed my question. Without a point of reference, there is no "too much" and thus no problem. So, if "too much" ISK is generated per day, then too much in compared to what? Compared to the total money supply? Compared to ISK lost? Compared to items generated? Each "too much" has its own unique solution — picking the wrong one won't solve the (supposed) problem.
Bo'Tox Amarr Arkor Inc	Posted - 2009.01.12 05:07:00 - [36] Originally by: Xtreem its not too easy to make isk, its too easy to save it, they need to bring out more isk sinks that dont suck! like ships attachments that are bought though npc sellers (and that refine into minerals etc so not to screw the market) and other such things that take isk out of the game rather than just spreading it around Game mechanics and data transfer not withstanding, I see customisable ship skins as being a good Sink... GOON and BOB specific paintjob on their ships? ooohhh!!
Bo'Tox Amarr Arkor Inc	Posted - 2009.01.12 05:23:00 - [37] Originally by: Tippia No we don't. Haven't you heard the the reports from EyjoG? No, never heard of them. What are they? Is that an abbreviation of a person? character? Website? Linky please...? I guess I was refering to Market adjustments, not Inflation as such. If natural resources were fixed then we would have an issue (ie asteroids didn't "autoregenerate") and we wouldnt need inflation. But with this then the ways a player can generate their own wealth is almost unlimited. It is however, limited by the time that a player can connect and accumulate the wealth... I think this is a better solution than inflation as such. Originally by: Tippia Either way, no, it's not too easy to make ISK, but it just might be (for example) too hard to lose it once you have it, which is why I posed my question. Without a point of reference, there is no "too much" and thus no problem. There are plenty of ways to loose your isk, but they all revolve around the player actually spending it... New ships, new modules, new skillbooks, buying GTC's.. But I agree without a point of reference you cant say "you've got too much". I've got 100 million isk, which when I started a year ago was more than I could conceive Id ever have. But skillbooks for carriers and dreadnought types are in the billions so whose to say that 200 Billion is a lot....??? Setting up a POS is the same. Buying BPO's = heaps of isk required... etc.... Originally by: Tippia So, if "too much" ISK is generated per day, then too much in compared to what? Compared to the total money supply? Compared to ISK lost? Compared to items generated? Each "too much" has its own unique solution ù picking the wrong one won't solve the (supposed) problem. Exactly..
Enthral	Posted - 2009.01.12 05:42:00 - [38] Originally by: Xtreem its not too easy to make isk, its too easy to save it, they need to bring out more isk sinks that dont suck! I smell a carebear. As I said, if you don't PvP, you don't have a proper isk sink so it is going to seem like isk is too easy to get. If you PvP--even if you're good at it--you're going to go through isk like crazy. And goodness help you if you suck. ;-) You can easily spend 25m isk on a properly fit PvP interceptor, for example. One PvP mistake in one of those, and they go bye bye real quick. Double that figure for your new clone and implants. Heavy Assault Cruiser? Expect to pay a solid 125m to play. A properly fitted PvP battleship? 200m on up. And don't even get me started on how expensive it is to fit a carrier. The look invincible to a carebear, but watch have fast they melt in a fleet when you're called primary. Finally, let's look at alliance warfare in general. While the carebear throws up a nice and juicy 1b isk POS in high sec and calls it a day, alliances are tossing them up all over the place. You don't like paying 50m/month to feed your POS? Try feeding dozens of them. And each is a big, fat target, which are costly to destroy, costlier to defend, and even costlier to lose. The carebear thinks EVE doesn't have any isk sinks, because they don't participate in the part of the game where all the isk sinks exist. In fact, the carebear is the isk generator in EVE, so of course isk seems easy to get and tough to lose for them! Like I said. It is all a matter of perspective. -Enthral
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.12 05:48:00 - [39] Edited by: Tippia on 12/01/2009 05:54:21 Originally by: Enthral As I said, if you don't PvP, you don't have a proper isk sink so it is going to seem like isk is too easy to get. If you PvP--even if you're good at it--you're going to go through isk like crazy. And goodness help you if you suck. ;-) PvP isn't an ISK sink — it's an item sink (well, combat is, at least — market and industry PvP have some unavoidable ISK sinks built into it). Combat doesn't remove money from the system — in fact, it adds money if the ships are insured. It doesn't matter how much your ship and fittings costs, because you don't lose any money when it's destroyed, only property. The ISK has long sinced changed hands and is now in the possession of someone else… and then the fairy ISK-mother descends and creates some more ISK out of nowhere to give to you. The only ISK sink in combat is the cost of clones, and that sink is (technically) optional.
Icycle Shuugouteki	Posted - 2009.01.12 05:54:00 - [40] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Enthral As I said, if you don't PvP, you don't have a proper isk sink so it is going to seem like isk is too easy to get. If you PvP--even if you're good at it--you're going to go through isk like crazy. And goodness help you if you suck. ;-) PvP isn't an ISK sink ù it's an item sink. It doesn't remove money from the system (in fact, it adds money if the ships are insured). of course it removes money ... unless you dont fit your ship you loose your ship not every item is dropped some is blown up thus loosing the item that is worth ISK however Enthral is correct ... its all a matter of perspective ... a person who mines or missions all day and every once in awhile buys a new ship or a new fitting has no isk sink it can amass isk rather quickly those that PvP even the best will loose a ship (most fly tech II no insurance payouts) loose a ship ... loose a pod ... loose your loot your out ISK ... and unless you have multiple accounts or can play all day long it sucks to make ISK to support PvP habbits the ISK sink IS pvp ... there is no other (big) sinks in the game ... you dont loose a pod to an NPC so really its a matter of perspective how easy or hard it is to make and keep that isk
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2009.01.12 05:54:00 - [41] Originally by: Kahega Amielden The fact that hisec ISK making matches lowsec and 0.0 ISK making is the problem. Making ISK pretty fast is fine, as long as you have to defend your right to do so. It matches low-sec (in practice), yes. It does not match 0.0 ISK making. Not even close. Maybe Providence and other crap regions (barely), but it's not even close to the insane amount of ISK you can make in some of the better 0.0 regions (because I'm pretty sure you can't make 30-50 mil per hour running lvl4s, and this without even counting the possibility of running into an officer or getting decent faction loot).
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.12 05:56:00 - [42] Originally by: Icycle of course it removes money ... unless you dont fit your ship No it doesn't. It removes the ship. The ship is not ISK — it's a ship. The ISK was transferred (not removed) to some other player when you bought the ship, and is still floating around out there.
Tave88	Posted - 2009.01.12 05:58:00 - [43] my main char does mining and its sp total about 2.8mill. i find that making isk is pretty hard at the current moment since my long term plan is to pay with isk for gtc and after about a month i only got 40-50mill isk from selling trit. seeing that 670mill wts is very demorilizing especially when you worked soo hard mining for 2-5hours each day about 4-6 times a week. i sort of gave up on that plan and now every day is just waiting for the mining barge V to finish so i can move on to covetor soon.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.01.12 06:06:00 - [44] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Bo'Tox Originally by: Tippia If that's happening, why don't we have inflation? We do.. Havent you heard the screams over the last few years about: - tritanium prices - GTC prices - insert other FOTM ship or module... No we don't. Haven't you heard the the reports from EyjoG? Either way, no, it's not too easy to make ISK, but it just might be (for example) too hard to lose it once you have it, which is why I posed my question. Without a point of reference, there is no "too much" and thus no problem. So, if "too much" ISK is generated per day, then too much in compared to what? Compared to the total money supply? Compared to ISK lost? Compared to items generated? Each "too much" has its own unique solution ù picking the wrong one won't solve the (supposed) problem. I'd agree with most of that. The fact that the economy keeps stable is a good sign that the amount of ISK generated is not high. Trit is going up in value, but it has gone up in value and down in value in the past. Same with megacyte which seems to be in a slight decline at the moment. GTC is entirely supply and demand. If anything prices have deflated drastically in the past couple years (although a lot of that is to be blamed on invention). Basically if too much ISK is being generated the pattern should be... Increase in ISK = decrease in value of ISK = increase in all prices. Actually it is quite possible that the worst thing they could do in this case is cut off the flow of ISK into the economy. It could lead to a massive increase in prices as people start worrying about just how much they make off of every deal rather then dumping it on the market and hoping for the best. ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2009.01.12 06:21:00 - [45] Its easily earned because its a game and the dev's expect you to spend it to blow up ships. If making isk was a job this wouldnt be a game now would it.
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.12 06:54:00 - [46] Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux Originally by: Ocih If you pay attention to the forums, yes. We are all multi billionaires. Back in game however, everyone I know and have known for around 4 years sit on an average of 400 mill ISK. That's around 2 fitted HACs and well fitted battleship. fixed for ya. seriously. 'well fitted' to me translates to all t2 gear and some rigs and faction ammo. i hope you dont spend 200m on one BS, let alone 400m. if so, where do you hang out? take mez can plz? A well fit and rigged Sniper Apoc will run over 300 mill if you want your optimal in the 220km range. I used to fit Abaddons all T2 untill I saw the Avatar Sig rad they produce. No worries, I gave up on battleships or floating instapop/ primaries. Skill training will now be focused on HAC and CS so I can be just like the other 10,000 or so PvP'ers in EvE. Meanwhile my original Account is training Titan. Avatar and Abso. Get in the biggest blobs I can find and to hell with anyone who gets in our way.
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.12 07:05:00 - [47] Originally by: Tave88 my main char does mining and its sp total about 2.8mill. i find that making isk is pretty hard at the current moment since my long term plan is to pay with isk for gtc and after about a month i only got 40-50mill isk from selling trit. seeing that 670mill wts is very demorilizing especially when you worked soo hard mining for 2-5hours each day about 4-6 times a week. i sort of gave up on that plan and now every day is just waiting for the mining barge V to finish so i can move on to covetor soon. High sec Hulk. If you enjoy mining, this is the way to go. Trit counts on most ships are, by numbers 80% of the ship and Trit will always be in demand. It's pure grind but with SP coming by the minute no matter what, you are left to either make ISK or lose ISK.
Ivana Drake	Posted - 2009.01.12 07:17:00 - [48] If not for Insurance we would be seeing prices for your average BS skyrocket imo
Asuka Smith Gallente StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.01.12 07:40:00 - [49] I used to worry about inflation until I realized how the EVE inflation works. The way it works is like this (And I hope this puts everyone who is worried to ease). Chribba starts a mining corp and organizes an elaborate supply chain, thus allowing him or people connected to him at some point in the chain to produce every item consumed by players across the galaxy. Chribba is however not the only one doing this, there are probably several dozen other people who are running similar operations (BoB, Goonswarm, RA, whoever the big players at the time are). Then, the 200,000 people who are not a part of one of the (I would say less than two dozen) market schemes go run some missions and rat. This generates insanely large amounts of ISK and contributes to massive Zimbabwe style inflation. These players then spend the money on the ships made by the Chribba-style industrial organizations. The money generated through these organizations ultimately winds up in the hands of a few individuals who have trillions and trillions and never spend a dime of it ever and ultimately quit the game or spend the money on GTCs to keep training but never play or put the money into the economy. This allows for massive inflation to continue without damaging the economy for the "regular" players because that money (while still in the game) is functionally simply being removed from the game. *Short Version* The inflation alarmists fail to realize that spending 200m on a battleship is going to lead to an increase in Chribba's wallet, not an increase in the amount of free-floating currency that devalues ISK and raises prices. I mean you might as well burn the money because once you spend it it is going into Chribba's spreadsheet and never seeing the light of day again.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.12 07:44:00 - [50] I've yet to play a MMO with challenge In EVE you can set new ones, as you do i other ones with limited resources, but generally, MMO is not a place to look for a good challenge. Actually, games in general are not challenging these days. thinks I'ma go get my impossible mission out of the closet. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.12 07:46:00 - [51] The more ISK that is generated, the more people feel happy about PvP and therefore lose it. The balance is created.
Vabjekf	Posted - 2009.01.12 07:53:00 - [52] Im an isk sink. Send me all your unwanted isk! I promise i will never spend it on player manufactured goods and it will be effectively removed from the game. Only together can we fight inflation!
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2009.01.12 09:12:00 - [53] Originally by: Buyus Stuffius Originally by: Roy Batty68 Looking for inflation? im sorry sir, you seem to have the word 'inflation' confused with 'supply and demand'. No, I'm not confused. But you are right, supply and demand is certainly a factor. But can you prove that it is solely the reason for the price increases? You could use this board to time travel a bit and go back a year and try to do a comparitive study on the apparent amount of GTCs changing hands then to what is occuring now. You could also try and derive how much demand there was then and now. It would be inherently inaccurate since the boards have never reflected 100% of the exchanges (people spam in game channels to sell and/or respond in game to buy). No, sorry, you can't prove your theory. Neither can I. I suspect it is a bit of both though. People are willing to spend more for less now. Why? Simply because supply isn't meeting demand? No, I don't believe that is the whole story. Hell, the econ guy even admitted in one of his reports that isk in was out pacing isk out. And due to the nature of Eve's market, there is only a few places to see inflation. But, as I said, I can't prove it. It's just a gut feeling. If you can prove your theory is 100% of the situation, please, lets have it. I'm always willing to learn. ---- ≡v≡
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.12 09:41:00 - [54] If you'd have a more detail look on the issue, you'd realise that the contrary is the case. Making isk is harder today than it ever was. Missionrunning for example resulted in much more isk few years ago, when loyalty points were at around 2k isk/ lp for empire. Production was more profitable, today there are too many people producing, the prices of ships are few % over the building costs. T2 items are cheaper then ever because of invention, no more big money with t2 bpo monopoly (invulnerability field II for 15 mil isk anyone ? ). Passive income like capital and supercapital bpo copying yields in only a fraction that they were making before. Trading has become harder, too many people jumped in, now there are buy-orders close to sell-prices for most items in the main tradingspots. How can you say making isk has become easier ? Name me one thing that is now easier to make money with compared to the past.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.01.12 10:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Remove 90% of the profit from high sec mission running. Problem solved. If I remember correct thats the Stalin solution. 'No man, no problem'.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2009.01.12 10:46:00 - [56] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba If you'd have a more detail look on the issue, you'd realise that the contrary is the case. Making isk is harder today than it ever was. Missionrunning for example resulted in much more isk few years ago, when loyalty points were at around 2k isk/ lp for empire. Production was more profitable, today there are too many people producing, the prices of ships are few % over the building costs. T2 items are cheaper then ever because of invention, no more big money with t2 bpo monopoly (invulnerability field II for 15 mil isk anyone ? ). Passive income like capital and supercapital bpo copying yields in only a fraction that they were making before. Trading has become harder, too many people jumped in, now there are buy-orders close to sell-prices for most items in the main tradingspots. How can you say making isk has become easier ? Name me one thing that is now easier to make money with compared to the past. Sounds like things are getting cheaper. Sort of begs the question do we need as much isk as before to get the same things done? I suppose that in turn indicates that the true measurement would be done in time spent, rather than isk earned. For instance, I remember a time when Ravens averaged around 130mil. Now they are generally around 85mil. If it took me a day to earn 130mil two years ago, and now it takes me a day to earn 85mil, what has changed? Sure, I'm making less, but I need less as well. Point being you can't say, "two years ago I made X doing activity Y and now I make X-some%" as if that is the entire story. You have to consider eve "cost of living" as part of the equation as well. And really, the only element in all of this worthy of comparison is time. How much time grinding does it take to kit out my ship now versus then? That's a better question than is it too easy to make isk. ---- ≡v≡
Dr Sheepbringer Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.12 11:16:00 - [57] I personally think that the price is ok, but for example getting T2 ships and modules is way too easy. You just go to the market and buy them. Make some modules illegal to sell or somehow alter certain things so that money isn't the only needed element (plus skills). Or perhaps make it so that you can't fitt certain modules in high sec.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.01.12 11:30:00 - [58] GTCs inflated in price quickly during two events: the first was the repricing of the GTC sold in $US, the second was the release of PLEX which allowed 1 GTC to be broken into two 30 day extensions, sold ingame as an item. The price of GTC is dependent on factors outside the game itself. If people were paying $35 for 500 ISK before, they want to be getting more ISK now for their $39.95. So please, don't use the price of GTC as "proof" that there is inflation in the EVE economy. While officer items are going up slowly (would that be because the market is small?), the prices of most minerals except tritanium has been steadily decreasing. That indicates that there is too much supply of minerals. Too many people trying to sell minerals for a profit means there's less profit to be made.
Shea Klant	Posted - 2009.01.12 12:36:00 - [59] So what do you mean by too easy to make ISK? You obviously think that there should be 1-2 titans in the game and most people should be flying cruisers not battleships, not because they want to but because it should be near impossible in financial terms. Well just like the real world times are a changing. With a bigger in game economy there are more opportunities for people to become very wealthy, through things like trading and industry. So that contributes to it. More people, than 4 years ago, have the ability to actually go out and run missions and do things that generate wealth. Simple game additions such as tractor beams and salvagers multiplied the effectivity of missioning. You are like some crotchty old man, that is complaining that everyone is driving Porches, have it too easy, and don't know the value of an ISK. I'll grant you that a high sec PVE pilot can max out most of the necessary skills and be grinding missions in his Navy issue in a relatively short period of time, but that is hardly applicable to PvP or anything that involves low-sec or 0.0 When you get to low sec and 0.0 (you have moved out high sec right, if you haven't then you have no right to complain about things you have no understanding of) that's an unfair comparison. A rigged, faction fit, Navy issue would last all of 10 minutes in 0.0 once the locals got wind of it. Big fish like that look really nice on the Corp kill board. In high sec ship longevity can be measured in years, in PvP ships typically don't make it much past a few weeks. In 0.0 PvP a good portions of the time it's measured in days. You have to make enough money to be able to outfit your ships. The ship itself is typically becoming the smallest part of the expensve anymore when fielding a ready vessel. Now as far as the blob is concerned that's CCP's fault. Making people poor in the game will not help. Letting people fly around in expensive toys is much easier than actually adding in the things necessary to put a damper on blob fights other than the occasional large fleet clashes out in deep space. Some things missing from the game that would reduce the occurance of the simple Blob fights. 1. No line of sight requirements to target and fire weapons, so no not much of a need for organized formations & manuevers 2. No observability issues, overly simplified 100% non-detectable cloak as wells as simplified sensors instead of stealthy ships, fittings, and tactics such as active/passive sensors power down modes or environment interference to detection. 3. Unlimited fuel capabilities of the ships, other than jump fuel, creates no real logistical tactics 4. An absolute lack of objects in space and non-uniform evironments (asteroid belts, planets, and dead space complexes, being the only very limited examples) for tactical considerations (other than stations & gates) 5. Standardized forced choke points (gates) 6. Simple ship repair models, hopefully sub-system targeting goes towards fixing this So it becomes a question of numbers, ship types, and fleet organization (aka DPS vs Tank, aka Blob tactics) The ability to generate isk or wealth have absolutely nothing to do with the regular occurance of blobs in eve.
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2009.01.12 13:46:00 - [60] Making money is easy enough.... keeping it is a different story. For those players who PvE only as much as needed to fund PvP, I think the majority of people are mostly broke most of the time. If you made ISK-earning any harder people would be even more risk-averse and you would find blobs were much worse. If you never PvP then yes, making ISK is too easy. But it doesn't matter because all you have to spend it on is more officer mods for your CNR.

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