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Is the Falcon really overpowered?

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Cambarus The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:10:00 - [31] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 26/01/2009 15:05:45 Originally by: Cambarus So you always fight in places that the enemy has long range BM's around?. Your unimaginative and static ideas on pvp are the problem not falcons or ecm, i suggest you try being a little more mobile in your tactics and even fighting in other places than directly on top of stations or gates. Oh and a dictor or hictor warping to a spot near the falcon would cause it major problems noob. Best case scenario the falcon is at 100km. Anything less and the falcon pilot screwed up and pilot error should never be a consideration in debating ship balance. That's still outside the range of most ships, definitely outside the range of anything that can tackle. When my arazu can lock and put a point on someone at 100+km then you can tell me that the falcon is fine. But as it stands the ship can operate at ranges that make it invulnerable to any other type of ewar, it can warp cloaked and turn on a dime, and it can break the lock of any ceptor lucky enough to get close long enough to book it.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:18:00 - [32] Originally by: Cambarus Best case scenario the falcon is at 100km. Anything less and the falcon pilot screwed up and pilot error should never be a consideration in debating ship balance. So your saying falcons in a roaming gang jumping inrto fights screws up?, cos they either die or need to warp/cloak and reposition, not only that but if theirs a bubble up any warpin at 100km will get them sucked in. Originally by: Cambarus But as it stands the ship can operate at ranges that make it invulnerable to any other type of ewar, That is cos its chance based at all ranges not 100% guaranteed like the others are at close range Originally by: Cambarus it can warp cloaked and turn on a dime, All recons of that type can warp cloaked, and the falcon is not that manouverable and certainly not more than the others. Originally by: Cambarus and it can break the lock of any ceptor lucky enough to get close long enough to book it. Going after a falcon in a ceptor is only of any use to get a warpin for other ships and even then its not really worth it, the fact that you would mention ceptors as tacklers for falcons shows how limited your experience is.
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:43:00 - [33] implement a little minigame to the jamming process that requires a players full attention. Falcons are fine, falcon alts are lame. If a person wants to 'be a falcon pilot' that's fine by me.
Solid Prefekt Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:06:00 - [34] Originally by: Cambarus Most of the people who complain about falcons ask for a range reduction. The fact that a falcon can operate at full capacity at more then twice the range at which other recons are well into falloff is the main concern of anti-falcon whiners. Think about it, the falcon completely and totally outclasses all other ewar ships, including ECM boats, which should be a pretty good indicator as to the problem with this ship. This is exactly it. The increase of whines came AFTER the speed nerf. The time to reach a falcon now takes twice a long. And all other Recons (and Logistics) have to play at half the falcons distance.
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 16:20:00 - [35] So one nerf must lead to another nerf? Originally by: Solid Prefekt And all other Recons ... Hmm...
devilator	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:32:00 - [36] How to counter a falcon 1. fit a eccm and increase your radar strength 2. bring sniper battleships 3. bring ur own falcons. Just like the nanos affected small gang warfare the falcons have done the same. I roam alot and have been involved in mutiple fleet battles. No other ship in a roaming gang has to be accounted for more than the falcon. Why should one ship change the make up of a small raoming gang or a ship setup so much. What other force recon ship requires such attention? fleet battles are a different story because You do have sniping battle ships available. I ve never seen a roaming sniping battleship why? it would die a horrible death, because it wouldnt be able to defend itself in close range combat which is what most roaming fights involve. so what about eccm? hmm i fly strictly minmatar using one of my already limited mids to protect for one ship equates to me being dead why ? because i just gimped the hell out of my tank especially in cruiser size vessels. Oh and lets not forget the Falcons have no dps comment so many say.. You can have my paltry 165 dps with drones on my rapier and give me a double web bonus with ranges up to 200km. I might not get one shot on the target but Ill laugh while my gang points him and he lies there motionless and every freakin gun in existence can hit him. You may not be able to engage a single target on a falcon but with one more ship u can take down almost any battleship hull an lower. Unlike the falcon u can fight and claw back into a fight against any other recon out there. with a falcon u will get up from ur cpu and go have a drink because you cant stand to sit there and be pwned and not get one shot off to fight the good fight. Ok so i say dont nerf it. just bring all the other force recons up to the same level that way no one would be upset..except for the people who get owned from 160km away
Leiara Knight Gallente The Oblivion Guard	Posted - 2009.01.27 07:22:00 - [37] Instead of reducing the Falcon's ability, perhaps they could just make Level 2 missions a little harder?
Super spikinator	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:42:00 - [38] Originally by: Leiara Knight Instead of reducing the Falcon's ability, perhaps they could just make Level 2 missions a little harder? Please do, I'm grinding to get to level IIIs in my retribution and has started to get quite boring. maybe more destroyers and cruisers or rats that are full fitted..... But that is off topic. Just wondering what is the average % chance of a falcon locking you at 200km, assuming the "OP" build?? For the exercise assume first a newb with no ECCM, then a person with an ECCM/back-up sensor array, etc. I'm curious is all
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:09:00 - [39] The Falcon's range is imbalanced compared to other recons, full stop. All those people saying "no, falcon is fine" remind me of the people who said nano-BS going 9km/s are fine...and look what happened to them Having said that, until they nerf it, here's a few useful counters: 1) Sniper Muninn gangs: Can you say instapop? And you'll still be relatively mobile, so it works for smaller and med-sized roaming gangs. 2) Bombers: Funny enough, bombers are pretty gimped in my opinion, but they're great for scaring off falcons. You won't kill the Falcon, but it either has to cloak or warp out, making it completely useless. 3) Sniper BS: I don't like that option because those ships aren't useful for every gang. If you're in a fast roaming gang, it's impractical to have sniper BS with you. Having said that, they are useful. 4) Speed-rigged inties providing warp-ins for the rest of the fleet. 5) Any covops/cloaking-recon: Not optimal, because flying 160km cloaked towards a Falcon takes a long time. Most of those options probably won't kill a competent Falcon pilot, but it will make 'em run. _______________
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:17:00 - [40] Originally by: Ione Hunt The Falcon's range is imbalanced compared to other recons, full stop. All other systems effects work 100% guaranteed at close range so does this mean that ECM is imbalanced as it does not?.... You cannot compare 2 different systems all with different calculations on how they work at those ranges and say one is broken cos it has longer range. Originally by: Ione Hunt All those people saying "no, falcon is fine" remind me of the people who said nano-BS going 9km/s are fine...and look what happened to them Stupid comparison as NANO was a type of fit and ECM if fitted on other non-bonused ships sucks worse than any other ewar system. While the other systems are very effective on non-bonused ships.

Leeluvv Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:27:00 - [41] Edited by: Leeluvv on 27/01/2009 11:31:54 The reason people think the Falcon is overpowered is because they confuse the different fits as one fit. 1. If a Falcon is at max range, then it has RANGE RIGS and a SENSOR BOOSTER, so it isn't set for max jamming stregnth and won't perma jam. 2. If a Falcon is at normal range, then it will have a stronger jamming strength and more ECMs, but it is easier to hit as it is closer. 3. If a Falcon has no tank it is very frail. If it has a tank, LSE or 1600mm plate, then it has less ECMs or less SDAs, so compromises it ECM abilities. Everyone posts as if Falcons are at 250 KM with a tank, 3 SDAs, 6 ECMs and STRENGTH RIGS. This is fiction and equates to moaning that a Rokh: 1. is hitting you for large amounts of damage (Blaster tank fit) 2. has a large tank (Blaster tank fit) 3. hits at 250 Km (Rails sniper fit) Yes, it can do all three, BUT NOT AT THE SAME TIME! Same for the Falcon. Lee == Sig to follow
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:37:00 - [42] Edited by: Ione Hunt on 27/01/2009 11:42:19 Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Ione Hunt The Falcon's range is imbalanced compared to other recons, full stop. All other systems effects work 100% guaranteed at close range so does this mean that ECM is imbalanced as it does not?.... You cannot compare 2 different systems all with different calculations on how they work at those ranges and say one is broken cos it has longer range. Originally by: Ione Hunt All those people saying "no, falcon is fine" remind me of the people who said nano-BS going 9km/s are fine...and look what happened to them Stupid comparison as NANO was a type of fit and ECM if fitted on other non-bonused ships sucks worse than any other ewar system. While the other systems are very effective on non-bonused ships. Oh comon' dude, that's a weak argument. Yes, ECM is chance based, but it also works against all enemies. A webber isn't useful against any enemy, and neither are neuts, or tracking disruptors. Also, a sensor booster totally makes up for being dampened, while ECCM does NOT work that well. If I fit an ECCM on my Sleip, I up the sensor strength to 24, which is still too low to really protect me against ECM effectively...or to the same extent as sensor boosters or tracking enhancers protect me against other forms of EW. Webs have already been nerfed in the last patch, so you can't seriously say they're as helpful as ECM And it's not like a nanofit was a good thing on every ship like you state. Nano Raven? Clearly you are worried that they get nerfed because it's obvious you like the ship. But don't pretend to be unbiased or trying to come up with rational explanations as to why Falcons are ok. I loved flying Vagabonds, or nano-Sleips, but they offered me the same ridiculous "you can't touch me" protection the Falcon has because of it's range. Again, I am not demanding a nerf to ECM, but the range in its current form is ridiculous. Also, a well skilled Falcon pilot has a chance higher than 50% of jamming it's target, most often a lot higher. Yet the range difference compared to other recons is far above 50%...sound fair to you? _______________
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:43:00 - [43] Edited by: ry ry on 27/01/2009 11:43:58 the falcon could be nerfed a little bit and would still be useful and popular ships. before lecrotta gets all foamy mouthed about it - i'm not saying falcons shouldn't be able to fit ECM, or should only have one midslot, or any other illogical extreme he cares to extrapolate and kthxbyelulbrosef about. just that Falcon ECM needs to be toned down slightly.
Algey The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:44:00 - [44] If range was the actual problem people would be asking for the rook, scorp and blackird to have a range nerf too. That is all that will happen anyway, people will just do what they did before and have the EW ships just offgrid in a safe, and warp them over at max range as the fight starts. The only difference will be the fact that there will be no falcons flown, because other than jamming they add absolutely nothing to a gang.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:50:00 - [45] Edited by: lecrotta on 27/01/2009 11:56:58 Originally by: Ione Hunt A webber isn't useful against any enemy It works on everything a ecm unit does and ecm is not that useful against a drone ship. Originally by: Ione Hunt and neither are neuts, or tracking disruptors. Nuets are THE most commonly used type of ewar in the game and TD's work great when used correctly when fitted on bonused and non bonused ships. Originally by: Ione Hunt Also, a sensor booster totally makes up for being dampened. Look who has the weak argument now, ppl do not fit SB to negate the fact they may get damped they fit sensor boosters cos they need the benefit either for lock speed in a fast tackler or lock range in a sniper, and damps remove those benefits very effectively even when fitted on non-bonused ships. Originally by: Ione Hunt If I fit an ECCM on my Sleip, I up the sensor strength to 24, which is still too low to really protect me against ECM effectively. So your favorite ship is not great against a pure ecm boat, pick another ship or get a buddy or two to join you in ships that has good sig str and range so you can deal with falcons, after all a solo falcon is useless as it cannot tackle or do dmg so it always is part of a team,.....why should you be able to beat a team with a falcon in it on your own...now that would be broken.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:52:00 - [46] Originally by: Ione Hunt Also, a well skilled Falcon pilot has a chance higher than 50% of jamming it's target, most often a lot higher. Yet the range difference compared to other recons is far above 50%...sound fair to you? A totally unskilled level 1 noob damp pilot has 100% chance of damping a ship......
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:58:00 - [47] Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Ione Hunt A webber isn't useful against any enemy It works on everything a ecm unit does and ecm is not that useful against a drone ship. Originally by: Ione Hunt and neither are neuts, or tracking disruptors. Nuets are THE most commonly used type of ewar in the game and TD's work great when used correctly. Originally by: Ione Hunt Also, a sensor booster totally makes up for being dampened. Look who has the weak argument now, ppl do not fit SB to negate the fact they may get damped they fit sensor boosters cos they need the benefit either for lock spreed in a fast tackler or lock range in a sniper, and damps remove those benifits very effectively. Originally by: Ione Hunt If I fit an ECCM on my Sleip, I up the sensor strength to 24, which is still too low to really protect me against ECM effectively. So your favorite ship is not great against a pure ecm boat, pick another ship or get a buddy or two to join you in ships that has good sig str and range so you can deal with falcons, after all a solo falcon is useless as it cannot tackle or do dmg so it always is part of a team,.....why should you be able to beat a team with a falcon in it on your own...now that would be broken. 1) ECM isn't that useful against drone ships? But a web or neuts are a lot more useful, right? If you have ECM, you can completely take out a ship, whereas webbing a Raven is pretty useless...see where this is going? 2) The other forms of ewar have counters that actually work. ECCM is NOT effective and can't be fit to any ship. The module also doesn't do anything but somewhat lessen the chances of being jammed, it's completely and utterly useless apart from that. 3) A skilled Falcon pilot can take out 3 people. So what you're saying is that I need 4 people to kill a Falcon and his friend? No other recon can take out that many enemies at once. It's not about what ships I like to fly, I could have named the Astarte, or pretty much any other ship in game. I'm not saying the Falcon needs to be nerfed into oblivion like the Huginn. But they need to be nerfed a bit...either that or they make ECCM more effective and useful. Maybe by giving them some secondary bonus, like with sensor boosters. _______________
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:58:00 - [48] Edited by: ry ry on 27/01/2009 11:59:09 Originally by: lecrotta A totally unskilled level 1 noob damp pilot has 100% chance of damping a ship...... at about three times the activation cost of an ECM module. you can take any random attribute in isolation and say 'yeah, that means X' but that means very little. look at the gangs roaming around, look at how they fight, look at the force multiplier a couple of falcons act as, look at their overwhelming popularity. they will be balanced at some point, denying there is an issue just means you don't get to contribute your suggestions to the discussion and CCP will just go with whatever they think is best.
ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:01:00 - [49] Originally by: Ione Hunt [either that or they make ECCM more effective and useful. Maybe by giving them some secondary bonus, like with sensor boosters. that is not a bad idea at all. small scan res bonus would have a measure of synergy.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:01:00 - [50] Edited by: lecrotta on 27/01/2009 12:04:41 Originally by: ry ry Originally by: lecrotta A totally unskilled level 1 noob damp pilot has 100% chance of damping a ship...... at about three times the activation cost of an ECM module. you can take any random attribute in isolation and say 'yeah, that means X' but that means very little. Like chance based effect + long range vs 100% effect + med range?. PS: I have no problem with buffing ECCM modules a bit or giving ECCM a added effect, but the truth is will ppl fit them cos i doubt it as most of them prefer eve to be a close range gank/tank game and will keep nerfing anything that does not sit in range and slug it out with them.

ry ry	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:03:00 - [51] Edited by: ry ry on 27/01/2009 12:04:52 Originally by: lecrotta Like chance based effect + long range vs 100% effect + med range?. yes. because a 60% reduction in targeting range or scan res isn't the same a being unable to target anything.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:08:00 - [52] Edited by: lecrotta on 27/01/2009 12:08:42 Originally by: ry ry Originally by: lecrotta Like chance based effect + long range vs 100% effect + med range?. yes. because a 30% reduction in my targeting range is not the same a being unable to target anything. It is if the pilot is not a total fool as any damp pilot with half a brain would be fitted to be able to do dmg outside your dampened down range and chew you up, while you would be helpless and unable to lock him. And he can do that solo btw, the falcon cannot, and if the minimum of 2 man team with the falcon misses a jam you have a good chance of melting his buddy.
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:09:00 - [53] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 27/01/2009 12:04:41 Originally by: ry ry Originally by: lecrotta A totally unskilled level 1 noob damp pilot has 100% chance of damping a ship...... at about three times the activation cost of an ECM module. you can take any random attribute in isolation and say 'yeah, that means X' but that means very little. Like chance based effect + long range vs 100% effect + med range?. PS: I have no problem with buffing ECCM modules a bit or giving ECCM a added effect, but the truth is will ppl fit them cos i doubt it as most of them prefer eve to be a close range gank/tank game and will keep nerfing anything that does not sit in range and slug it out with them. EVE is a risk vs reward game. In regards to the Falcon, the rewards far outshine the risks. It was the same with the untouchable nano-Machariels, which were fun to fly, but also imbalanced. And people will fit ECCM if the added bonus is really useful. Sensor boosters have great boni apart from being helpful against damps, tracking enhancers improve damage output which rocks, cap boosters help negate the effect of neuts and improve active tanks at the same time, yet ECCM does absolutely nothing apart from giving you a minimal increase in sensor strength.
Neena Valdi Geddonites	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:10:00 - [54] Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 27/01/2009 12:04:52 Originally by: lecrotta Like chance based effect + long range vs 100% effect + med range?. yes. because a 60% reduction in targeting range or scan res isn't the same a being unable to target anything. And because Falcon can jam few ships at once easily while Arazu can only be effective against 1 ship at most.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:17:00 - [55] Originally by: Ione Hunt EVE is a risk vs reward game. So nerf all sniper fits?. Sorry pal but long range fits will always be more survivable than short range. Originally by: Ione Hunt And people will fit ECCM if the added bonus is really useful. Sensor boosters have great boni apart from being helpful against damps, tracking enhancers improve damage output which rocks, cap boosters help negate the effect of neuts and improve active tanks at the same time, yet ECCM does absolutely nothing apart from giving you a minimal increase in sensor strength. I know what those systems do i do not need to be told, but the fact is that unless eccm's new bonus has a real and top notch extra effect then nobody will fit it any more than they do now. Ppl only fit injectors not if they are running RR gangs or active tanks, and nobody fits tracking comps to improve dmg or negate TD's they do it if they need to and the same applies to SB. It is much easier for ppl to keep their favorite close range gank/tank fit and spend 1-2 years spamming threads on the forum until another effective system is reduced to uselessnss and gank/tank fits get another sideways buff.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:19:00 - [56] Originally by: Neena Valdi Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 27/01/2009 12:04:52 Originally by: lecrotta Like chance based effect + long range vs 100% effect + med range?. yes. because a 60% reduction in targeting range or scan res isn't the same a being unable to target anything. And because Falcon can jam few ships at once easily while Arazu can only be effective against 1 ship at most. It can be effective against a few ships depending on type and what buddies the arazu has. And that applies to the falcon as well cos of sig str and what racials he has as the arazus damps are fully effective on all races.
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:23:00 - [57] Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Ione Hunt EVE is a risk vs reward game. So nerf all sniper fits?. Sorry pal but long range fits will always be more survivable than short range. Originally by: Ione Hunt And people will fit ECCM if the added bonus is really useful. Sensor boosters have great boni apart from being helpful against damps, tracking enhancers improve damage output which rocks, cap boosters help negate the effect of neuts and improve active tanks at the same time, yet ECCM does absolutely nothing apart from giving you a minimal increase in sensor strength. I know what those systems do i do not need to be told, but the fact is that unless eccm's new bonus has a real and top notch extra effect then nobody will fit it any more than they do now. Ppl only fit injectors not if they are running RR gangs or active tanks, and nobody fits tracking comps to improve dmg or negate TD's they do it if they need to and the same applies to SB. It is much easier for ppl to keep their favorite close range gank/tank fit and spend 1-2 years spamming threads on the forum until another effective system is reduced to uselessnss and gank/tank fits get another sideways buff. Yes, nerf all sniper fits, because clearly they can go after more than one target at once like the Falcon can Quite a few turret ships use tracking enhancers to increase damage output, especially now that fitting a speed mod isn't as useful any longer. But I'm happy we agree ECCM should get a strong, really effective second bonus
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:27:00 - [58] Originally by: Ione Hunt Yes, nerf all sniper fits, because clearly they can go after more than one target at once like the Falcon can 7 guns on my mega... Originally by: Ione Hunt Quite a few turret ships use tracking enhancers to increase damage output, especially now that fitting a speed mod isn't as useful any longer. I have never seen any. Originally by: Ione Hunt But I'm happy we agree ECCM should get a strong, really effective second bonus I am rarely against a reasonable buff especially considering the other systems (SB, tracking comps, ect) have a effect that is not just a counter to their opposing ewar system.
Vrikshaka 0ff-Peak Esoteric Cutthroats	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:30:00 - [59] Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Ione Hunt EVE is a risk vs reward game. So nerf all sniper fits?. Sorry pal but long range fits will always be more survivable than short range. Ouch. That argument hurts my soul. For this to be correct, the damage of a sniper fit BS would need to = the damage of a close range one. Which it simply isn't. A sniper fit BS is safer, yes. But at the price of dealing a lot less damage. The Falcon however, when operating at sniper range, does so with no penalty whatsoever to the strength of it's main weapon. And no, I'm not talking about the uber sniper range of a specifically range fitted/rigged Falcon here, but the already considerable range of a full strength fitted Falcon.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:37:00 - [60] Edited by: lecrotta on 27/01/2009 12:38:24 Originally by: Vrikshaka Ouch. That argument hurts my soul. For this to be correct, the damage of a sniper fit BS would need to = the damage of a close range one. Which it simply isn't. Why should it a sniper fit sacrifices either active or passive tank to hit that far out, the close range BS does not. Originally by: Vrikshaka A sniper fit BS is safer, yes. But at the price of dealing a lot less damage. And having a lot less tank. Originally by: Vrikshaka The Falcon however, when operating at sniper range, does so with no penalty whatsoever to the strength of it's main weapon. A falcon can miss a jam at long or short range and as such is not fully predictable like a damp/TD ship, that is why it has range instead of a guaranteed effect. Also falcons are not born at 200km away from everything as the pilots need to make bookmarks and anybody can do that, as well as the fact that in a roaming gang they need to jump into camps and either cloak warp and hope no bubble is up for the return trip, or get melted as soon as they engage at close range. Just cos a falcon has the ability to jam at range does not mean that it can get to that range in time to be of any use in the fight.



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