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Is the Falcon really overpowered?

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Ezael Whiteshadow Caldari Divine Anarchy	Posted - 2009.01.26 08:00:00 - [1] Edited by: Ezael Whiteshadow on 26/01/2009 08:02:38 Being a Falcon pilot, I am bemused by the sheer number of anti-Falcon posts (so much so, I decided to make my own). These posts seem to be written by people who don't understand the Falcon, its weaknesses or how jamming is calculated. When I am supporting my gang, I have to work out the chances of jamming our targets. Often, if the chances are low, we call off the attack or I will remain cloaked in case things go totally pear-shaped. I would assume that most Falcon pilots only enter a fight when their chances of jamming (and therefore survival) are quite high. I believe that this gives the false impression that Falcons ALWAYS succeed at jamming. As a result, 'solo' players become the main targets and I suspect these are the main anti-Falcon posters. EVE isn't a solo game, so get over it. Given that there are many weaknesses of this ship (which I won't go into ) is it just the case that being jammed is very annoying rather than the Falcon being a wtfbbqjamming machine?
Kayosoni Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2009.01.26 08:05:00 - [2] Edited by: Kayosoni on 26/01/2009 08:05:34 Perception is reality. Majority perception is that Falcon is overpowered, hence it is so. Now, the majority of eve players also have an IQ equal to that of a brick wall. These are the same players who believe that the Falcon is overpowered. Also, not being allowed to do what they want to do is overpowered. If ECM was removed, webs would be the next overpowered item, as they stop you from doing something. ---
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.26 08:08:00 - [3] Originally by: Ezael Whiteshadow When I am supporting my gang, I have to work out the chances of jamming our targets. Often, if the chances are low, we call off the attack or I will remain cloaked in case things go totally pear-shaped. If the success of your gangs depends on you jamming... well I wouldn't want to read too much into this.
ShadowGod56	Posted - 2009.01.26 08:27:00 - [4] no falcons are not over powered, but you got it right basicly every solo pvper and his alt who got killed cause a falcon jammed him are the people starting these threads
DasDizzy Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.01.26 08:31:00 - [5] Overpowered? No. Gamebreaking in large numbers? Yes. [SIG START] Everything i say is the view of the rest of the eve cluster, IM THE PRESSDUDE FFS
Major Celine	Posted - 2009.01.26 08:36:00 - [6] Originally by: Kayosoni Majority perception is that Falcon is overpowered, hence it is so. You mean majority of forum posters? Well, questionable.
Kayosoni Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2009.01.26 08:40:00 - [7] Originally by: DasDizzy Overpowered? No. Gamebreaking in large numbers? Yes. they're more effective against a smaller amount of targets than a larger amount you dumbass. They're pretty much ineffective in a large fleet battle (200+) ---
Soporo Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.26 08:44:00 - [8] He probably meant per capita so to speak, but maybe not. shrugs I don't really care because I am clinging to whatever shreds of pvp usefullness Caldari has remaining in comparrison, and the Falcon/ECM is one of those shreds. Make sense? Does to me.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 08:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Ezael Whiteshadow Given that there are many weaknesses of this ship (which I won't go into ) is it just the case that being jammed is very annoying rather than the Falcon being a wtfbbqjamming machine? Most of the people who complain about falcons ask for a range reduction. The fact that a falcon can operate at full capacity at more then twice the range at which other recons are well into falloff is the main concern of anti-falcon whiners. Think about it, the falcon completely and totally outclasses all other ewar ships, including ECM boats, which should be a pretty good indicator as to the problem with this ship. What I'd like to see happen is the falcon getting the range bonus completely removed, maybe remove a midslot or 2. Mainly because the whole idea behind force recons is that they're not as good in actual combat as combat recons, but they can warp cloaked. Remove the range bonus on the rook as well, maybe give it a different bonus to ECM (Activation time maybe?) Leave the scorp as it is. It SHOULD be the ECM boat that can sit at 200km jamming people. No one aspect of the falcon is viewed as a problem by most people. It's the combination of 200km+ range, jamming strength equal to that of the combat recon/battleship variant (can you immagine an eagle with the DPS output of a rokh? Or a deimos with the damage of a megathron?), and the fact that it can warp cloaked. Oh and one more thing: Quote: I would assume that most Falcon pilots only enter a fight when their chances of jamming (and therefore survival) are quite high. By your logic we should be seeing whines about ALL the force recons. Care to venture a guess as to why the falcon got singled out, especially given the caldari's current problems in pvp?
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 09:26:00 - [10] Originally by: DasDizzy Overpowered? No. Gamebreaking in large numbers? Yes. They are just really really annoying when your 8 man gang meets another 8 man gang, but they have 2 falcons. That said, it was funny when a hostile falcon used all its jammers on my Archon and didn't get a cycle off.

Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.01.26 09:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Cambarus Mainly because the whole idea behind force recons is that they're not as good in actual combat as combat recons, but they can warp cloaked. I LOLed ... get a f...ing clue ... actual combat is the LAST thing the falcon is effective at. even the Rook is WORSE than force recons of other races. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.26 09:46:00 - [12] Originally by: Cambarus Mainly because the whole idea behind force recons is that they're not as good in actual combat as combat recons, but they can warp cloaked. The falcon is dedicated to ewar. Nothing more. No combat ability at all. I.e. the Rapier is a good combat vessel (it was even better before the speed-web-nerf).
Inara Subaka Caldari the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.01.26 09:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Hugh Ruka even the Rook is WORSE than force recons of other races. Agreed, Rook vs. Rapier/Pilgrim/Arazu = dead Rook... at least the other 3 combat recons have drones. To the OP, Falcons aren't overpowered, people are just getting too lazy to counter them. TimMc said jumping an 8 man gang in on another 8 man gang sucks when they decloak 3 falcons to help them out... what about if they decloaked 2 Rapiers, or 2 stealth Bombers, or etc... it's the same concept, they are decloaking more ships than you knew they had (one of the tactics behind cloaking). Saying Falcons is overpowered is like saying this video make sense.
Ezael Whiteshadow Caldari Divine Anarchy	Posted - 2009.01.26 10:39:00 - [14] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Ezael Whiteshadow When I am supporting my gang, I have to work out the chances of jamming our targets. Often, if the chances are low, we call off the attack or I will remain cloaked in case things go totally pear-shaped. If the success of your gangs depends on you jamming... well I wouldn't want to read too much into this. Well the success of our gangs don't depend on jamming. I really meant that if we are going up against heavy hitters or are outnumbered, having effective ECM is ideal.
Super spikinator	Posted - 2009.01.26 10:56:00 - [15] If you cut away those who are crying deliciously tasty tears you see a theme, its the rang that the falcon operates at. The indicator would be that most people have little to no regard for the rook, the other caldari recon ship. I must say that the smartest suggestion is to change the bonus from optimal to fall-off, which was not only aimed at toning down the falcon but also giving the rook a chance to be considered in gang and small fleet battles (not sure about larger fleet battles).
destinationZERO Minmatar Pain Management Services	Posted - 2009.01.26 11:21:00 - [16] In before whatshisface... lyria something...
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2009.01.26 11:23:00 - [17] Originally by: DasDizzy Gamebreaking in large numbers? Yes. In large numbers falcons are less than effective as target calling and selection becomes imposable.
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.01.26 11:42:00 - [18] Overpowered is an interesting term... The falcon is good at its job, for sure. However, the real point is that if a single tactic is so dominant that you either have to join the trend or fit every ship in every gang you fly in to counter or resist it, then it needs some adjustment. Like nano-ships for example. Not only did the devs decide that nano-battleships were patently absurd (which they bloody were) but went so far as to say that 'ludicrous speed' of any sort was so dominant that it was becoming impossible for people to fight each other. So they changed it. The falcon is going to get some sort of readjustment in the near future. C'est la vie.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.26 11:57:00 - [19] Edited by: Murina on 26/01/2009 11:57:54 Originally by: Katarlia Simov Overpowered is an interesting term... The falcon is good at its job, for sure. However, the real point is that if a single tactic is so dominant that you either have to join the trend or fit every ship in every gang you fly in to counter or resist it, then it needs some adjustment. Then falcons/ecm ships are fine as you only need a very few ships fitted to counter them in your gang and that is if your in a BS gang, if your in a gang of smaller ships your mobility is counter enough. A good gang should contain a good percentage of damage, logistic, tackle and a percentage of ewar, just because the ewar part of a opposing gang causes problems for those ppl who wanna fit pure gank/tank setup is their problem not ecm's and it does not make ECM overpowered. Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Solo is all about skill not ship fits Originally by: Amira Shadowsong The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
baltec1 R.U.S.T.	Posted - 2009.01.26 12:08:00 - [20] I take down falcons in my bomber with ease and 0 risk of being jammed. So if the falcon is overpowered then the bomber must be getting close to god like.

shortattenionsp	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:39:00 - [21] Fly round 0.0 for a bit and see how many pop up and you'll see how much people like them. Also if you are not in a big alliance ask one of your friends that is what the thoughts of many pvp alliances is on them, i.e. what official alliance mails say. You are partly right in that being jammed is just so annoying it creates more hate than other things. Having to effectively sit out a fight is a bit boring. p.s. Op tonight at 8pm bring RR BS + falcons!
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2009.01.26 13:55:00 - [22] Edited by: lebrata on 26/01/2009 13:56:45 Originally by: shortattenionsp p.s. Op tonight at 8pm bring RR BS + falcons! It actually a little known fact among the noobs of eve that a setup with gank/tank + ecm and tackle works better for pvp than a rather limited setup of just gank/tank......
Rordan D'Kherr	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:28:00 - [23] Originally by: shortattenionsp Fly round 0.0 for a bit and see how many pop up and you'll see how much people like them. So the fact that Falcons are liked by many people is a reason to complain. Hmm, I get it. It's just an effect that takes place coz all of the other nerfed boats (nerfed because of many complaints). People wanna fly good / useful ships naturally. If Arazus would be as useful as it was, people still would fly them and some would whine about it. Originally by: shortattenionsp Also if you are not in a big alliance ask one of your friends that is what the thoughts of many pvp alliances is on them, i.e. what official alliance mails say. Already being said. Tank / gank + ewar = more effective than tank / gank alone. Originally by: shortattenionsp You are partly right in that being jammed is just so annoying it creates more hate than other things. Having to effectively sit out a fight is a bit boring. How about warping out and come back? Originally by: shortattenionsp p.s. Op tonight at 8pm bring RR BS + falcons! Ewar is very important to fleet fights like Logistics and so on. Nothing new. Callups in my alliance havent change since years.
Psiri	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:37:00 - [24] Originally by: baltec1 I take down falcons in my bomber with ease and 0 risk of being jammed. So if the falcon is overpowered then the bomber must be getting close to god like. Yes I'm sure Falcon pilots all love just to sit uncloaked, waiting for SB pilots like you to sneak up on them and blow them to smitherines. Or maybe, they warp in on engagements at 100km (or better yet 200km away with a bookmark) and jam anything that threatens them. Hey if you're one of the people with a long range SB then you may be able to launch enough missiles to force him to warp out! Too bad your ship is completely lackluster in every other regard, the Falcon will be back shortly aswell.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:41:00 - [25] Originally by: Psiri Or maybe, they warp in on engagements at 100km (or better yet 200km away with a bookmark) and jam anything that threatens them. Any ship can warp to BM's or at range. Kinda sick of seeing ppl complaining about falcons while ALWAYS placing them at long or extreme ranges from the gang. The falcon is a dead duck when used at closer than snipe ranges and that fact alone gives any gang with half a brain a very real and valid tactic against them.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2009.01.26 14:59:00 - [26] Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Psiri Or maybe, they warp in on engagements at 100km (or better yet 200km away with a bookmark) and jam anything that threatens them. Any ship can warp to BM's or at range. Kinda sick of seeing ppl complaining about falcons while ALWAYS placing them at long or extreme ranges from the gang. The falcon is a dead duck when used at closer than snipe ranges and that fact alone gives any gang with half a brain a very real and valid tactic against them. My god you're right! Why doesn't everyone just land on top of them? It's not like they're 200km away, turn like a cruiser, can warp cloaked, and can jam any ceptor that shows up long enough to get away or anything
Sean Faust Gallente Point of No Return B.L.A.C.K.	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:00:00 - [27] what makes falcons seem overpowered is the effect they have on small gang warfare (5 or so people in gang). The only way to counter one is to bring one of your own and from a gameplay perspective that just doesn't work. It's why nanos were nerfed, because unless you were in a BS with a heavy neut fitted (which only scared them off, didn't kill them), the only way to stand up to one was to nano-fit your hac or recon yourself. from a gameplay standpoint, having to fight fire with fire is not a viable counter because it takes a lot of the strategy out of the game. it really is no different than lowering the game down to gank/tank. and in small (again, 5 or fewer) people, every bit of DPS you can muster counts. if you have even one ship in your gang that isn't able to put out respectable DPS, that can be crippling and mean the difference between being able to break your prey's tank or not, especially since gangs these size are usually forced to resort to hit-and-run tactics, which means small ships. a while back CCP gave falcons a totally unnecessary buff to their jamming strength. they were fine before this buff but for some reason CCP went ahead and did it anyway, which completely eliminated the rook's reason for existence and was the start of falcon whine threads. at the very least CCP should 'undo' the buff they gave the falcon. it will balance it and it will give the rook its role back.
lecrotta lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:04:00 - [28] Edited by: lecrotta on 26/01/2009 15:05:45 Originally by: Cambarus My god you're right! Why doesn't everyone just land on top of them? It's not like they're 200km away, turn like a cruiser, can warp cloaked, and can jam any ceptor that shows up long enough to get away or anything So you always fight in places that the enemy has long range BM's around?. Your unimaginative and static ideas on pvp are the problem not falcons or ecm, i suggest you try being a little more mobile in your tactics and even fighting in other places than directly on top of stations or gates. Oh and a dictor or hictor warping to a spot near the falcon would cause it major problems noob.
Wideen Warped Mining Strip Mining Club	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:09:00 - [29] its ability to inspire new threads on the same topic over and over again is truly overpowered
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.26 15:09:00 - [30] Falcons overpowered? Let's see... - It's one recon that end up being used more than the three other put together. - It's always primary. - Some gangs avoid other gangs just because the scout reports a few falcons. - The huge number of whine thread. It's never that consistent about something that isn't genuinely broken. About things that "appear" broken, remember the cries for amarr nerfing, for exemple, it doesn't even compare... Pretty concusive ihmo, something in indeed out of balance here. But I think it's not the ship, rather ECM that is still too powerfull. ANY ECM boat is primary.



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