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DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:02:00 -
[1]
There's been threads on ships that are good but are seriously underestimated, so why not the opposite? This thread is about the ships that some people swear by but you can't for the life of you tell why anyone would want to fly one. Name those ships that you see people flying and add a short description of why you don't understand its utility. Here's my two pet Peeves, keep in mind IÆm looking at it from a PVP perspective.
Drake: A lot of people fly it for the OMG super-tank it can fit. That's good but it suffers from so many drawbacks as a result in the end there's much better choices. It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank and even fitting one scram puts you at a disadvantage even if its slightly reasonable.
Also the second you face a gank Harb/Cane that is strong enough to break your tank ôhard but the right cane fit can break any drakeö the ship turns into a pile of mush. In gangs you'll just lose all your friends as the enemies ignore your pitiful damage and call you primary in the end "you won't tank 5 decent ships". It's just sub-par on so many levels yet countless people seem to swear by them.
Assault Frigates: They're slightly more powerful then cruisers, but "insurance considered" they cost more then a Battlecruiser. A decent Cane/Harb will tear an AF apart, have a lot more firepower, and be slightly tougher for the same cost.
If you disagree with any of my assessments I welcome you to challenge them with your own opinion. Also feel free to add your own picks for Overestimated ships. |
ZW Dewitt
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:05:00 -
[2]
Falcon: people act as if the fight is over the second one uncloaks. |
Venduras
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:06:00 -
[3]
Assault Ships seem fine to me, they are still Frigates and should be considered as such, taking on other Frigates, Destroyers and maybe T1 Cruisers. In a gang they can act as tacklers or as fast moving DPS.
Maybe a decent Harbinger will own an AF, I have yet to come across a ship that blew my Harpy away, even five Warrior IIs barely sc**** my shield. Also, my Harpy was about 20mil, although as a T2 ship it doesn't have very good insurance. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:06:00 -
[4]
Edited by: lecrotta on 28/01/2009 18:10:23
Gank/tank only fits.
Ppl who fly in gangs of these limited fits expect ccp to bring every ship in the game within their weapon range. |
Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:07:00 -
[5]
In my humble opinion, the Curse is massivly overrated when flown outside a solo/very small gang situation. It doesn't have a lot of tank, it doesn't have a lot of range, and its EWAR is limited - in a gang fight if you TD something it can often shoot something closer / moving more slowly instead and it is easily countered by the X+1'th ship, often regardless of what X+1 is (HAC, BC, BS, ceptor, etc). Neuts are of limited use because things will use cap boosters while you neut them and many ships need very little cap (armor buffered AC ships? w/e).
THAT BEING SAID I am a terrible curse pilot and I don't fly EWAR ships in general. |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:08:00 -
[6]
falcon |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:10:00 -
[7]
Originally by: DubanFP
Drake: A lot of people fly it for the OMG super-tank it can fit. That's good but it suffers from so many drawbacks as a result in the end there's much better choices. It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank and even fitting one scram puts you at a disadvantage even if its slightly reasonable.
Also the second you face a gank Harb/Cane that is strong enough to break your tank “hard but the right cane fit can break any drake” the ship turns into a pile of mush. In gangs you'll just lose all your friends as the enemies ignore your pitiful damage and call you primary in the end "you won't tank 5 decent ships". It's just sub-par on so many levels yet countless people seem to swear by them.
That is not a decent PvP fit. There are decent PvP fits for Drakes, but please continue underestimating them. |
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:12:00 -
[8]
AFs HACs CSes
I almost see the pattern Especially if you compare those to their T1 counterparts, sometimes this game is full of surprises. |
DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:14:00 -
[9]
Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 18:16:54
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong AFs HACs CSes
I almost see the pattern Especially if you compare those to their T1 counterparts, sometimes this game is full of surprises.
CSes are pretty good because the T1 BCs are pretty good for general use already. Unlike the HAC/AFs there is nothing better then a CS for a fraction of the cost. BSes can match it, but CSes have an actual advantage to using them.
Other then that I agree with you 100% on the HACs and AFs. BC >= HAC while cheaper, BC > AF for same price. |
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:18:00 -
[10]
Originally by: DubanFP
CSes are pretty good because the T1 BCs are pretty good for general use already. Other then that I agree with you 100% on the HACs and AFs.
They're all pretty good, it's just about how good they are for their price. HACs and AFs are overestimated more because of their larger advantage over their T1 counterparts compared to CS/BC(since, well, tier 2 BCs are totally capable of smoking CS provided favourable conditions).
Would note that I was mostly speaking about Field CSes, Fleet ones are hard to overestimate really |
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VoiceInTheDesert
Diplomatic Disruption Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:22:00 -
[11]
Edited by: VoiceInTheDesert on 28/01/2009 18:24:45
Originally by: Venduras Assault Ships seem fine to me, they are still Frigates and should be considered as such, taking on other Frigates, Destroyers and maybe T1 Cruisers. In a gang they can act as tacklers or as fast moving DPS.
Maybe a decent Harbinger will own an AF, I have yet to come across a ship that blew my Harpy away, even five Warrior IIs barely sc**** my shield. Also, my Harpy was about 20mil, although as a T2 ship it doesn't have very good insurance.
Harby is ok...but it really depends on starting range. If I get my 2 point scram on a Harby, it's going to die, sooner or later cause my ammo is not going to run out before his cap charges will.
I actually think the AF's are great against anything smaller than a BS (obviously will not break a CS, but anything else I like my odds considering how much I spend on an AF).
I really want to fight a harpy cause I have heard they are a ***** to deal with. (perhaps you and I could set up a 1v1 :) )
I also think CSes are way overrated. The gallente ones are meh, Caldari ones have no dps and the Minny ones are not enough tank for my liking. The Amarr ones are really the only ones worth flying for more reasons than gang bonus.
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Visceroth
Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert ...Minny ones are not enough tank for my liking. The Amarr ones are really the only ones worth flying for more reasons than gang bonus.
[Sleipnir, PvP] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II F-43 Repeatative LADAR Backup Sensors
Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Siege Warfare Link - Active Shielding
Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
503 DPS tank...is that good? Can last 5 minutes. |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:35:00 -
[13]
Higher tier BS's. (2 and 3)
All four of the tier 1's have awesome roles and can spank the others when fit right.
Not to mention how damn cheap they are to use and insure. |
DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:35:00 -
[14]
Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 18:41:42
Originally by: Visceroth
503 DPS tank...is that good? Can last 5 minutes.
Not really, at least considering that it has no MWD to keep range for its barrage amo. |
Visceroth
Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:37:00 -
[15]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 18:36:07
Originally by: Visceroth 503 DPS tank...is that good?
My hurricane does 800 without implants or overload. 950+ with. So no, not particularly considering you have no MWD to actually take advantage of that barrage amo.
Can I see your hurricane setup please |
VoiceInTheDesert
Diplomatic Disruption Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:38:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Visceroth
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert ...Minny ones are not enough tank for my liking. The Amarr ones are really the only ones worth flying for more reasons than gang bonus.
[Sleipnir, PvP] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II F-43 Repeatative LADAR Backup Sensors
Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Siege Warfare Link - Active Shielding
Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
503 DPS tank...is that good? Can last 5 minutes.
My only issue with that setup is a lack of speed mod or web. Seems to me you might have trouble tackling/getting in/keeping range. I don't fly them myself, so maybe this isn't a problem, but it would be in any ship I fly.
I can set up an Astarte to do 600dps and tank 450 with a speed mod and web to boot, but I still think it's kinda meh cause it loses to the first BS it finds (I imagine your setup would as well) and costs more. Maybe I have high standards. |
Visceroth
Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
My only issue with that setup is a lack of speed mod or web. Seems to me you might have trouble tackling/getting in/keeping range. I don't fly them myself, so maybe this isn't a problem, but it would be in any ship I fly.
I can set up an Astarte to do 600dps and tank 450 with a speed mod and web to boot, but I still think it's kinda meh cause it loses to the first BS it finds (I imagine your setup would as well) and costs more. Maybe I have high standards.
Astarte is an armor tank so that is reasonable. Sleipnir is a shield tank(obviously) so I don't get to have that luxury. But in any case there is no way in hell I would take this out solo. Gang warfare only so therefore all I REALLY have to do is warp to the gang member that is closest to the target and boom in range.
Second note, this is not primary tackler. More of a secondary tackler.It's mainly there to put out dps(418 in my case) and absorb damage in case your called primary.
Thirdly, can't really compare racial ships. Blasters will always put out more DPS than projectiles. We give up dmg for no cap usage,unless you put hail in. |
DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:46:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Visceroth
Can I see your hurricane setup please
Read it wrong. I was thinking he meant it dealt 500 DPS. |
Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:51:00 -
[19]
Drakes are awesome, best bc imo, though I think almost all the BCs (minus ferox and prophecy) are pretty awesome this patch.
With that said, I think these ships are overrated:
Curse: Massively overrated. Lacks fitting options, utility and a role while decreasing the number of fights you get.
1) Fitting : It's too slow to really speed tank, has too little low slots/grid to armor tank and still use neuts and has a massive em/therm hole on it's shields which is epically bad for shield buffer tanking. Plus, trying to get it cap stable, mounting some ewar support and still able to neut while having any reasonable pretense of a tank is nearly impossible.
2) Utility : Tds are OK at protecting you from large, slower craft, but they don't help your gang much and still leave you vulnerable to drones and missiles. Neuts are OK solo assuming you have all the time in the world and have perma-run setup, but the larger the gang the less useful they become. By the time you have 3 guys you're almost always better off having dmg over the neuting. It also is a bad backup tackler since you really don't want it in web/scram range so all it provides is a disruptor, which means that this patch everything is getting back to gate or warping before you can target them. Sweet!
3) Role. It isn't a tackler, isn't ideal for anything bigger than about 2 players, and isn't good dps or ewar support. Plus, it can't fight under sentries (POP DRONES) and otherwise is never worth the opportunity cost of bringing something else. It used to be OK for solo, although since killing something took so long you ended up losing tons of drones and having additional allies show up all the time, then QR knocked the last few nails into that.
4) Everyone is frightened of this pos ship. So no one wants to fight it. This means that people run or blob it. Having one in gang not only weakens the gang but also drives off fights. |
fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: DubanFP There's been threads on ships that are good but are seriously underestimated, so why not the opposite? This thread is about the ships that some people swear by but you can't for the life of you tell why anyone would want to fly one. Name those ships that you see people flying and add a short description of why you don't understand its utility. Here's my two pet Peeves, keep in mind IÆm looking at it from a PVP perspective.
Drake: A lot of people fly it for the OMG super-tank it can fit. That's good but it suffers from so many drawbacks as a result in the end there's much better choices. It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank and even fitting one scram puts you at a disadvantage even if its slightly reasonable.
Also the second you face a gank Harb/Cane that is strong enough to break your tank ôhard but the right cane fit can break any drakeö the ship turns into a pile of mush. In gangs you'll just lose all your friends as the enemies ignore your pitiful damage and call you primary in the end "you won't tank 5 decent ships". It's just sub-par on so many levels yet countless people seem to swear by them.
Assault Frigates: They're slightly more powerful then cruisers, but "insurance considered" they cost more then a Battlecruiser. A decent Cane/Harb will tear an AF apart, have a lot more firepower, and be slightly tougher for the same cost.
If you disagree with any of my assessments I welcome you to challenge them with your own opinion. Also feel free to add your own picks for Overestimated ships.
Drakes can fit MWD/Web/Disrupter and still fit a very good buffer and do more than enough DPS (500 or so) to be threatening. The fact that people still fly around with fail passive tank fiots says more about Caldari pilots than it does the Drake. |
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:07:00 -
[21]
Pilgrim:
If someone uncloaks a pilgrim on me, my number one reaction is "Thank god that wasn't a falcon" which is swiftly followed by "I hope it's faction fit" and "Livespace pilgrims? Really?"
It has no gang utility, no role, and no escape options.
1) Gang Utility: All the weaknesses of the curse in a gang with even less ewar support, less neuting power, less neuting range, less dps and a slower lock time. Although with the manditory web and probably scram it's actually a better secondary tackler.
2) Role: The pilgrim is OK as an EFT solo ship. In reality the fact that it takes forever to kill something, it can't deal with adds at all, and had to be inside web/scram range to fight effevtively means it's an expensive suicide ship. It's a worthless gang ship for all the reasons of the curse plus the fact it has less range. It does, however, excel at solo ganking mission runners, so long as they aren't fully passive tanked. Hurray!
3) No escape options on a t2 ship that operates inside web/scram range and takes long periods of time to kill its enemies. That's high risk with little to show for the chances you're taking. Not to mention self-destruct hard counters the pilgrim ever getting loot.
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Absolom Hues
Gallente The Triangle Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:11:00 -
[22]
Originally by: DubanFP
Drake: .....It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank.....
While the tank is certainly reduced by adding MWD/scram/web, it can still have a good buffer tank with some recharge. My HAM Drake has 58k of ehp with 120 shield defense... which is still a higher tank than most of the other Battlecuiser gank fits. Oh, and the dps output is over 500
Originally by: DubanFP
Also the second you face a gank Harb/Cane that is strong enough to break your tank ôhard but the right cane fit can break any drakeö the ship turns into a pile of mush.....
Unless you are talking about faction fit... show me a Harbi or Cane fit that can break any Drake tank.
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Major Celine
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:12:00 -
[23]
AFs are not underestimated. They are just terrible. I do not want it in my gang just because it is fun to fly for unique snowflakes. It is not fast enough to tackle and does not deal any dps what counts nor do they have any other abilities which could be useful to a gang. |
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:14:00 -
[24]
Falcon.
You fart near one and it explodes.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: DubanFP Drake: A lot of people fly it for the OMG super-tank it can fit. That's good but it suffers from so many drawbacks as a result in the end there's much better choices. It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank and even fitting one scram puts you at a disadvantage even if its slightly reasonable.
When commenting on ships, it helps to not lose your entire credibility and make yourself look completely clueless with your very first comment. |
Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:18:00 -
[26]
Omen / Arbitrator
I can't remember how many times I've seen these ships mentioned as viable cruisers.
The vexor, thorax, rupture and blackbird are pretty much the only t1 cruisers worth anything with a nod towards caracals in an anti-frig role.
Drones as a dmg source leave you screwed vs the thorax/rupture who WILL be using ECM drones. You won't be able to dictate any sort of range as your extra mid slot is totally shut down by being totally unable to lock anything. Which means that you are trading gank/tank with cruisers with a better slot layout and hardpoint count to do so.
Cap/sec on medium lasers coupled with the omen's 3 mids and total crap fitting make any attempt at a balanced fitting a joke. The rupture and rax do it 10x better.
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Embarcadero
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: DubanFP
Assault Frigates: They're slightly more powerful then cruisers, but "insurance considered" they cost more then a Battlecruiser. A decent Cane/Harb will tear an AF apart, have a lot more firepower, and be slightly tougher for the same cost.
Look how stupid you are. There is a lot more ship parameters that makes it's value. For example agility, speed, signature radius, scan resolution ect ect ect |
bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:23:00 -
[28]
If you want a tougher frigate with lots of firepower you use a stabber |
Embarcadero
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Endless Subversion Omen / Arbitrator
I can't remember how many times I've seen these ships mentioned as viable cruisers.
The vexor, thorax, rupture and blackbird are pretty much the only t1 cruisers worth anything with a nod towards caracals in an anti-frig role.
FYI Arbitrator with TD's will halt 1-2 sniper BS's EASILY. |
Embarcadero
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:24:00 -
[30]
Originally by: bff Jill If you want a tougher frigate with lots of firepower you use a stabber
Assault frigates killing vagabonds and zealots, chewing through ceptors are ofc overestimated. Right |
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