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DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:02:00 -
[1]
There's been threads on ships that are good but are seriously underestimated, so why not the opposite? This thread is about the ships that some people swear by but you can't for the life of you tell why anyone would want to fly one. Name those ships that you see people flying and add a short description of why you don't understand its utility. Here's my two pet Peeves, keep in mind IÆm looking at it from a PVP perspective.
Drake: A lot of people fly it for the OMG super-tank it can fit. That's good but it suffers from so many drawbacks as a result in the end there's much better choices. It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank and even fitting one scram puts you at a disadvantage even if its slightly reasonable.
Also the second you face a gank Harb/Cane that is strong enough to break your tank ôhard but the right cane fit can break any drakeö the ship turns into a pile of mush. In gangs you'll just lose all your friends as the enemies ignore your pitiful damage and call you primary in the end "you won't tank 5 decent ships". It's just sub-par on so many levels yet countless people seem to swear by them.
Assault Frigates: They're slightly more powerful then cruisers, but "insurance considered" they cost more then a Battlecruiser. A decent Cane/Harb will tear an AF apart, have a lot more firepower, and be slightly tougher for the same cost.
If you disagree with any of my assessments I welcome you to challenge them with your own opinion. Also feel free to add your own picks for Overestimated ships. |
ZW Dewitt
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:05:00 -
[2]
Falcon: people act as if the fight is over the second one uncloaks. |
Venduras
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:06:00 -
[3]
Assault Ships seem fine to me, they are still Frigates and should be considered as such, taking on other Frigates, Destroyers and maybe T1 Cruisers. In a gang they can act as tacklers or as fast moving DPS.
Maybe a decent Harbinger will own an AF, I have yet to come across a ship that blew my Harpy away, even five Warrior IIs barely sc**** my shield. Also, my Harpy was about 20mil, although as a T2 ship it doesn't have very good insurance. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:06:00 -
[4]
Edited by: lecrotta on 28/01/2009 18:10:23
Gank/tank only fits.
Ppl who fly in gangs of these limited fits expect ccp to bring every ship in the game within their weapon range. |
Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:07:00 -
[5]
In my humble opinion, the Curse is massivly overrated when flown outside a solo/very small gang situation. It doesn't have a lot of tank, it doesn't have a lot of range, and its EWAR is limited - in a gang fight if you TD something it can often shoot something closer / moving more slowly instead and it is easily countered by the X+1'th ship, often regardless of what X+1 is (HAC, BC, BS, ceptor, etc). Neuts are of limited use because things will use cap boosters while you neut them and many ships need very little cap (armor buffered AC ships? w/e).
THAT BEING SAID I am a terrible curse pilot and I don't fly EWAR ships in general. |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:08:00 -
[6]
falcon |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:10:00 -
[7]
Originally by: DubanFP
Drake: A lot of people fly it for the OMG super-tank it can fit. That's good but it suffers from so many drawbacks as a result in the end there's much better choices. It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank and even fitting one scram puts you at a disadvantage even if its slightly reasonable.
Also the second you face a gank Harb/Cane that is strong enough to break your tank “hard but the right cane fit can break any drake” the ship turns into a pile of mush. In gangs you'll just lose all your friends as the enemies ignore your pitiful damage and call you primary in the end "you won't tank 5 decent ships". It's just sub-par on so many levels yet countless people seem to swear by them.
That is not a decent PvP fit. There are decent PvP fits for Drakes, but please continue underestimating them. |
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:12:00 -
[8]
AFs HACs CSes
I almost see the pattern Especially if you compare those to their T1 counterparts, sometimes this game is full of surprises. |
DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:14:00 -
[9]
Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 18:16:54
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong AFs HACs CSes
I almost see the pattern Especially if you compare those to their T1 counterparts, sometimes this game is full of surprises.
CSes are pretty good because the T1 BCs are pretty good for general use already. Unlike the HAC/AFs there is nothing better then a CS for a fraction of the cost. BSes can match it, but CSes have an actual advantage to using them.
Other then that I agree with you 100% on the HACs and AFs. BC >= HAC while cheaper, BC > AF for same price. |
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:18:00 -
[10]
Originally by: DubanFP
CSes are pretty good because the T1 BCs are pretty good for general use already. Other then that I agree with you 100% on the HACs and AFs.
They're all pretty good, it's just about how good they are for their price. HACs and AFs are overestimated more because of their larger advantage over their T1 counterparts compared to CS/BC(since, well, tier 2 BCs are totally capable of smoking CS provided favourable conditions).
Would note that I was mostly speaking about Field CSes, Fleet ones are hard to overestimate really |
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VoiceInTheDesert
Diplomatic Disruption Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:22:00 -
[11]
Edited by: VoiceInTheDesert on 28/01/2009 18:24:45
Originally by: Venduras Assault Ships seem fine to me, they are still Frigates and should be considered as such, taking on other Frigates, Destroyers and maybe T1 Cruisers. In a gang they can act as tacklers or as fast moving DPS.
Maybe a decent Harbinger will own an AF, I have yet to come across a ship that blew my Harpy away, even five Warrior IIs barely sc**** my shield. Also, my Harpy was about 20mil, although as a T2 ship it doesn't have very good insurance.
Harby is ok...but it really depends on starting range. If I get my 2 point scram on a Harby, it's going to die, sooner or later cause my ammo is not going to run out before his cap charges will.
I actually think the AF's are great against anything smaller than a BS (obviously will not break a CS, but anything else I like my odds considering how much I spend on an AF).
I really want to fight a harpy cause I have heard they are a ***** to deal with. (perhaps you and I could set up a 1v1 :) )
I also think CSes are way overrated. The gallente ones are meh, Caldari ones have no dps and the Minny ones are not enough tank for my liking. The Amarr ones are really the only ones worth flying for more reasons than gang bonus.
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Visceroth
Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert ...Minny ones are not enough tank for my liking. The Amarr ones are really the only ones worth flying for more reasons than gang bonus.
[Sleipnir, PvP] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II F-43 Repeatative LADAR Backup Sensors
Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Siege Warfare Link - Active Shielding
Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
503 DPS tank...is that good? Can last 5 minutes. |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:35:00 -
[13]
Higher tier BS's. (2 and 3)
All four of the tier 1's have awesome roles and can spank the others when fit right.
Not to mention how damn cheap they are to use and insure. |
DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:35:00 -
[14]
Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 18:41:42
Originally by: Visceroth
503 DPS tank...is that good? Can last 5 minutes.
Not really, at least considering that it has no MWD to keep range for its barrage amo. |
Visceroth
Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:37:00 -
[15]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 18:36:07
Originally by: Visceroth 503 DPS tank...is that good?
My hurricane does 800 without implants or overload. 950+ with. So no, not particularly considering you have no MWD to actually take advantage of that barrage amo.
Can I see your hurricane setup please |
VoiceInTheDesert
Diplomatic Disruption Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:38:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Visceroth
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert ...Minny ones are not enough tank for my liking. The Amarr ones are really the only ones worth flying for more reasons than gang bonus.
[Sleipnir, PvP] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II F-43 Repeatative LADAR Backup Sensors
Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Siege Warfare Link - Active Shielding
Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
503 DPS tank...is that good? Can last 5 minutes.
My only issue with that setup is a lack of speed mod or web. Seems to me you might have trouble tackling/getting in/keeping range. I don't fly them myself, so maybe this isn't a problem, but it would be in any ship I fly.
I can set up an Astarte to do 600dps and tank 450 with a speed mod and web to boot, but I still think it's kinda meh cause it loses to the first BS it finds (I imagine your setup would as well) and costs more. Maybe I have high standards. |
Visceroth
Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
My only issue with that setup is a lack of speed mod or web. Seems to me you might have trouble tackling/getting in/keeping range. I don't fly them myself, so maybe this isn't a problem, but it would be in any ship I fly.
I can set up an Astarte to do 600dps and tank 450 with a speed mod and web to boot, but I still think it's kinda meh cause it loses to the first BS it finds (I imagine your setup would as well) and costs more. Maybe I have high standards.
Astarte is an armor tank so that is reasonable. Sleipnir is a shield tank(obviously) so I don't get to have that luxury. But in any case there is no way in hell I would take this out solo. Gang warfare only so therefore all I REALLY have to do is warp to the gang member that is closest to the target and boom in range.
Second note, this is not primary tackler. More of a secondary tackler.It's mainly there to put out dps(418 in my case) and absorb damage in case your called primary.
Thirdly, can't really compare racial ships. Blasters will always put out more DPS than projectiles. We give up dmg for no cap usage,unless you put hail in. |
DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:46:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Visceroth
Can I see your hurricane setup please
Read it wrong. I was thinking he meant it dealt 500 DPS. |
Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:51:00 -
[19]
Drakes are awesome, best bc imo, though I think almost all the BCs (minus ferox and prophecy) are pretty awesome this patch.
With that said, I think these ships are overrated:
Curse: Massively overrated. Lacks fitting options, utility and a role while decreasing the number of fights you get.
1) Fitting : It's too slow to really speed tank, has too little low slots/grid to armor tank and still use neuts and has a massive em/therm hole on it's shields which is epically bad for shield buffer tanking. Plus, trying to get it cap stable, mounting some ewar support and still able to neut while having any reasonable pretense of a tank is nearly impossible.
2) Utility : Tds are OK at protecting you from large, slower craft, but they don't help your gang much and still leave you vulnerable to drones and missiles. Neuts are OK solo assuming you have all the time in the world and have perma-run setup, but the larger the gang the less useful they become. By the time you have 3 guys you're almost always better off having dmg over the neuting. It also is a bad backup tackler since you really don't want it in web/scram range so all it provides is a disruptor, which means that this patch everything is getting back to gate or warping before you can target them. Sweet!
3) Role. It isn't a tackler, isn't ideal for anything bigger than about 2 players, and isn't good dps or ewar support. Plus, it can't fight under sentries (POP DRONES) and otherwise is never worth the opportunity cost of bringing something else. It used to be OK for solo, although since killing something took so long you ended up losing tons of drones and having additional allies show up all the time, then QR knocked the last few nails into that.
4) Everyone is frightened of this pos ship. So no one wants to fight it. This means that people run or blob it. Having one in gang not only weakens the gang but also drives off fights. |
fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.01.28 18:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: DubanFP There's been threads on ships that are good but are seriously underestimated, so why not the opposite? This thread is about the ships that some people swear by but you can't for the life of you tell why anyone would want to fly one. Name those ships that you see people flying and add a short description of why you don't understand its utility. Here's my two pet Peeves, keep in mind IÆm looking at it from a PVP perspective.
Drake: A lot of people fly it for the OMG super-tank it can fit. That's good but it suffers from so many drawbacks as a result in the end there's much better choices. It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank and even fitting one scram puts you at a disadvantage even if its slightly reasonable.
Also the second you face a gank Harb/Cane that is strong enough to break your tank ôhard but the right cane fit can break any drakeö the ship turns into a pile of mush. In gangs you'll just lose all your friends as the enemies ignore your pitiful damage and call you primary in the end "you won't tank 5 decent ships". It's just sub-par on so many levels yet countless people seem to swear by them.
Assault Frigates: They're slightly more powerful then cruisers, but "insurance considered" they cost more then a Battlecruiser. A decent Cane/Harb will tear an AF apart, have a lot more firepower, and be slightly tougher for the same cost.
If you disagree with any of my assessments I welcome you to challenge them with your own opinion. Also feel free to add your own picks for Overestimated ships.
Drakes can fit MWD/Web/Disrupter and still fit a very good buffer and do more than enough DPS (500 or so) to be threatening. The fact that people still fly around with fail passive tank fiots says more about Caldari pilots than it does the Drake. |
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:07:00 -
[21]
Pilgrim:
If someone uncloaks a pilgrim on me, my number one reaction is "Thank god that wasn't a falcon" which is swiftly followed by "I hope it's faction fit" and "Livespace pilgrims? Really?"
It has no gang utility, no role, and no escape options.
1) Gang Utility: All the weaknesses of the curse in a gang with even less ewar support, less neuting power, less neuting range, less dps and a slower lock time. Although with the manditory web and probably scram it's actually a better secondary tackler.
2) Role: The pilgrim is OK as an EFT solo ship. In reality the fact that it takes forever to kill something, it can't deal with adds at all, and had to be inside web/scram range to fight effevtively means it's an expensive suicide ship. It's a worthless gang ship for all the reasons of the curse plus the fact it has less range. It does, however, excel at solo ganking mission runners, so long as they aren't fully passive tanked. Hurray!
3) No escape options on a t2 ship that operates inside web/scram range and takes long periods of time to kill its enemies. That's high risk with little to show for the chances you're taking. Not to mention self-destruct hard counters the pilgrim ever getting loot.
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Absolom Hues
Gallente The Triangle Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:11:00 -
[22]
Originally by: DubanFP
Drake: .....It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank.....
While the tank is certainly reduced by adding MWD/scram/web, it can still have a good buffer tank with some recharge. My HAM Drake has 58k of ehp with 120 shield defense... which is still a higher tank than most of the other Battlecuiser gank fits. Oh, and the dps output is over 500
Originally by: DubanFP
Also the second you face a gank Harb/Cane that is strong enough to break your tank ôhard but the right cane fit can break any drakeö the ship turns into a pile of mush.....
Unless you are talking about faction fit... show me a Harbi or Cane fit that can break any Drake tank.
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Major Celine
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:12:00 -
[23]
AFs are not underestimated. They are just terrible. I do not want it in my gang just because it is fun to fly for unique snowflakes. It is not fast enough to tackle and does not deal any dps what counts nor do they have any other abilities which could be useful to a gang. |
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:14:00 -
[24]
Falcon.
You fart near one and it explodes.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: DubanFP Drake: A lot of people fly it for the OMG super-tank it can fit. That's good but it suffers from so many drawbacks as a result in the end there's much better choices. It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank and even fitting one scram puts you at a disadvantage even if its slightly reasonable.
When commenting on ships, it helps to not lose your entire credibility and make yourself look completely clueless with your very first comment. |
Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:18:00 -
[26]
Omen / Arbitrator
I can't remember how many times I've seen these ships mentioned as viable cruisers.
The vexor, thorax, rupture and blackbird are pretty much the only t1 cruisers worth anything with a nod towards caracals in an anti-frig role.
Drones as a dmg source leave you screwed vs the thorax/rupture who WILL be using ECM drones. You won't be able to dictate any sort of range as your extra mid slot is totally shut down by being totally unable to lock anything. Which means that you are trading gank/tank with cruisers with a better slot layout and hardpoint count to do so.
Cap/sec on medium lasers coupled with the omen's 3 mids and total crap fitting make any attempt at a balanced fitting a joke. The rupture and rax do it 10x better.
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Embarcadero
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: DubanFP
Assault Frigates: They're slightly more powerful then cruisers, but "insurance considered" they cost more then a Battlecruiser. A decent Cane/Harb will tear an AF apart, have a lot more firepower, and be slightly tougher for the same cost.
Look how stupid you are. There is a lot more ship parameters that makes it's value. For example agility, speed, signature radius, scan resolution ect ect ect |
bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:23:00 -
[28]
If you want a tougher frigate with lots of firepower you use a stabber |
Embarcadero
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Endless Subversion Omen / Arbitrator
I can't remember how many times I've seen these ships mentioned as viable cruisers.
The vexor, thorax, rupture and blackbird are pretty much the only t1 cruisers worth anything with a nod towards caracals in an anti-frig role.
FYI Arbitrator with TD's will halt 1-2 sniper BS's EASILY. |
Embarcadero
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:24:00 -
[30]
Originally by: bff Jill If you want a tougher frigate with lots of firepower you use a stabber
Assault frigates killing vagabonds and zealots, chewing through ceptors are ofc overestimated. Right |
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Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:28:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Embarcadero Assault frigates killing vagabonds and zealots, chewing through ceptors are ofc overestimated. Right
This tells more about those HACs' pilots, if anything.
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:30:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Endless Subversion on 28/01/2009 19:30:57
Originally by: Embarcadero
Originally by: Endless Subversion Omen / Arbitrator
I can't remember how many times I've seen these ships mentioned as viable cruisers.
The vexor, thorax, rupture and blackbird are pretty much the only t1 cruisers worth anything with a nod towards caracals in an anti-frig role.
FYI Arbitrator with TD's will halt 1-2 sniper BS's EASILY.
Try and pretend you've played eve before. Try and outline a situation where you're facing hostile sniper BS and it's a good idea to have brought an arbitrator.
The lock range on that arbitrator + TD range means it really isn't going to be TDing snipers from range. So now you're up close to the hostiles TDing their sniper BS's. Ah... what?
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Foulque
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:31:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: DubanFP Drake: A lot of people fly it for the OMG super-tank it can fit. That's good but it suffers from so many drawbacks as a result in the end there's much better choices. It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank and even fitting one scram puts you at a disadvantage even if its slightly reasonable.
When commenting on ships, it helps to not lose your entire credibility and make yourself look completely clueless with your very first comment.
^ This ________
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DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:34:00 -
[34]
Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 19:37:15
Originally by: Absolom Hues Unless you are talking about faction fit... show me a Harbi or Cane fit that can break any Drake tank.
The last time I went around championing a ship with details the Rapier/Huginn went from about 10 active users to a premier PVP ship of common use even after being nerfed. Still, fit properly a RF phased plasma Cane "cost 50 mil after insurance" can deal 750+ thermal DPS which is pretty much the drake's Achilles heel. Just overload to 850+ when you reach that critical 33% and instant dead drake.
My fitting has about 41k EHP and all the numbers is with my current skillset as opposed the default level V. I have yet to meet a drake that could tank it, even the no-tackle variety cries under it. Yes I always keep RF Phased plasma M in my hanger so unless the drake is specifically fit against me it is dead. Oh, and with Hail M it does 860 DPS for armor tanks. No drake can match that.
P.S. As for the AF comments about agillity. If the BC knows proper counter-agillity maneuvers transversal can be minimized to nearly zero. _______________
This is EVE. Here you have the right to settle any disagreements with lethal force. |
Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:35:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Embarcadero
Assault frigates killing vagabonds and zealots, chewing through ceptors are ofc overestimated. Right
Just stop, seriously. You might have been flying an AF when your gang blobbed a perma jammed hac to death, but that is not an indicator of how pwn sauce your AF is.
AFs aren't very good vs hacs. The few hacs that solo eat AFs alive and when they're ganged your AF is going to drop as soon as they finish off the players who brought worthwhile ships to the fight.
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Embarcadero
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:36:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Endless Subversion
Try and pretend you've played eve before. Try and outline a situation where you're facing hostile sniper BS and it's a good idea to have brought an arbitrator.
The lock range on that arbitrator + TD range means it really isn't going to be TDing snipers from range. So now you're up close to the hostiles TDing their sniper BS's. Ah... what?
You obviously never participated system defenses when gate is bubbled and enemy fleet is jumping in... Go get some real experience next time before you post anything so ignorant...
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Embarcadero
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:38:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Endless Subversion
Assault frigates killing vagabonds and zealots, chewing through ceptors are ofc overestimated. Right
Just stop, seriously. You might have been flying an AF when your gang blobbed a perma jammed hac to death, but that is not an indicator of how pwn sauce your AF is.
AFs aren't very good vs hacs. The few hacs that solo eat AFs alive and when they're ganged your AF is going to drop as soon as they finish off the players who brought worthwhile ships to the fight.
Oh yeah another pile of ignorance. Tell me more what exactly vagabond pilot can do to me if I have him scrambled and webbed and orbiting him at 500 m and he has no neutralizer fitted (which happens a lot). Zealot is even easier pray.
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DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:39:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Embarcadero
Oh yeah another pile of ignorance. Tell me more what exactly vagabond pilot can do to me if I have him scrambled and webbed and orbiting him at 500 m and he has no neutralizer fitted (which happens a lot). Zealot is even easier pray.
Besides not get scrambled and webbed in the first place? _______________
This is EVE. Here you have the right to settle any disagreements with lethal force. |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:40:00 -
[39]
Originally by: DubanFP Drake: A lot of people fly it for the OMG super-tank it can fit. That's good but it suffers from so many drawbacks as a result in the end there's much better choices. It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank and even fitting one scram puts you at a disadvantage even if its slightly reasonable.
Drake is the most powerful BC when looked at as single ship. It CAN fit mwd, web and scram, have better tank than any other gank BC and do very nice dps with hams and 3 bcus or alternatively do less dps but at good range with heavies, which is I guess more needed in 0.0 environments. It is the result of cookie cutter mentality that only knows how to look on forums for fits that everyone (not any more tbh, but up until very recently) didnt know how to fit anything but full rack of SPRs and 6 slot tank with heavies in high slots, creating one of the most useless yet for some reason popular ship fits I ever came upon.
In my eyes most overestimated ship is Astarte. Even before the web nerf it was utter crap among command ships, especially in it's typical dual repping bufferless edition that all the cool kids use. Even in very small gangs when astarte becomes primary you better start locking something else soon because it will go pop very fast.
Other than that, Nighthawk. While many people who know their thing are well aware of it's deficiencies and there are many topics springing up about them, it still seems to give countless caldari high sec bears the feeling of invincibility. They think it can tank or something. lol. Very similar issue to passive drake actually, with the added problem of very limited other options since with mwd/web/scram/haml sort of setup drake is actually better.
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Embarcadero
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:41:00 -
[40]
Originally by: DubanFP
Originally by: Embarcadero
Oh yeah another pile of ignorance. Tell me more what exactly vagabond pilot can do to me if I have him scrambled and webbed and orbiting him at 500 m and he has no neutralizer fitted (which happens a lot). Zealot is even easier pray.
Besides not get scrambled and webbed in the first place?
MWD away, overload MWD, overload web and scram, hit approach and he will be caught because of his mwd interia. Profit
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Mistress Evita
Caldari Booze and Hookers
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:42:00 -
[41]
I'm not a PvPer but I can place this on a Drake. Is this any good?
[Drake] Reactor Control Unit II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Internal Force Field Array I (CPU purposes)
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II 10MN Microwarpdrive II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles
Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Warrior II (5) for anti-drone defense
about 82000 Effective HP (74%EM, 77% THERM, 79% KIN, 83% EXP) shield defense efficiency of 147 DPS of 443 with the missiles and 68 for the Drones
It will run out of cap in about 3 minutes with everything running.
Is that good for a Drake if you put assault missiles on it? I'm just a mission runner and just curious. I have always been told that Drakes are no good at PvP
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:43:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Endless Subversion on 28/01/2009 19:45:43
Quote:
You obviously never participated system defenses when gate is bubbled and enemy fleet is jumping in... Go get some real experience next time before you post anything so ignorant...
So your argument is that Arbitrators aren't overestimated because when you've bubbled a gate and the hostile snipers are burning out of the bubble, you can TD 2-3 of them from close range.
Ignoring the fact that you're still better off doing something else since you're not helping, the BB is BETTER at the role you just oulined for the arbitrator. 1 unbonused TD is just fine for what you've mentioned and the BB has 2 more mids to stick TDs in.
Hell, if you're just going to define a role as "Applies TDs to snipers in close range while they mwd out of a bubble" You're probably best off using a scorpion with it's 8 mids or if you insist on a cruiser, a BB or falcon/rook for the extra mids. Arbitrator definetly isn't good there.
As for your vaga stuff... The good players ARE fitting a neut in that high AND the vagas have no need to get that close to you. AND the vaga gets 5 light drones, which with ecm drones means he is basically gaurenteed between his neut and his drones to be able to pulse his mwd, flat line the transversal and toast you.
Who the **** flies a solo zealot in qr? Seriously!
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Embarcadero
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Posted - 2009.01.28 19:55:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Endless Subversion
So your argument is that Arbitrators aren't overestimated because when you've bubbled a gate and the hostile snipers are burning out of the bubble, you can TD 2-3 of them from close range.
Ignoring the fact that you're still better off doing something else since you're not helping, the BB is BETTER at the role you just oulined for the arbitrator. 1 unbonused TD is just fine for what you've mentioned and the BB has 2 more mids to stick TDs in.
Hell, if you're just going to define a role as "Applies TDs to snipers in close range while they mwd out of a bubble" You're probably best off using a scorpion with it's 8 mids or if you insist on a cruiser, a BB or falcon/rook for the extra mids. Arbitrator definetly isn't good there.
As for your vaga stuff... The good players ARE fitting a neut in that high AND the vagas have no need to get that close to you. AND the vaga gets 5 light drones, which with ecm drones means he is basically gaurenteed between his neut and his drones to be able to pulse his mwd, flat line the transversal and toast you.
Who the **** flies a solo zealot in qr? Seriously!
Sorry I do not argue with ignorant noobs. Get some experience outside of eft then we will talk.
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:10:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Embarcadero Pro response
So after championing a bad ship in a made up role and STILL being shown multiple ships do your imaginary role better, you're going to, literally, turn to name calling?
I'm on my main. I have A LOT of pvp experience. What about you? Who is your main?
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Absolom Hues
Gallente The Triangle Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:21:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Absolom Hues on 28/01/2009 20:22:26
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 19:37:15
Originally by: Absolom Hues Unless you are talking about faction fit... show me a Harbi or Cane fit that can break any Drake tank.
The last time I went around championing a ship with details the Rapier/Huginn went from about 10 active users to a premier PVP ship of common use even after being nerfed. Still, fit properly a RF phased plasma Cane "cost 50 mil after insurance" can deal 750+ thermal DPS which is pretty much the drake's Achilles heel. Just overload to 850+ when you reach that critical 33% and instant dead drake.
My fitting has about 41k EHP and all the numbers is with my current skillset as opposed the default level V. I have yet to meet a drake that could tank it, even the no-tackle variety cries under it. Yes I always keep RF Phased plasma M in my hanger so unless the drake is specifically fit against me it is dead. Oh, and with Hail M it does 860 DPS for armor tanks. No drake can match that.
Ok.. so you don't want to show your fit.... ... you just made me go to battleclinic and look it up from some of your loss mails. Anywise, that fit would be hard on most Drake tanks.
Better hope you never meet a HAM Drake 1v1 with Fulmination Rage missels... that explosive hole is much bigger than the drakes thermal hole you describe. ___
Quote from Karrade Krise concerning stealth bombers:
"I felt a disturbance in the Expansion...it was as if millions of people /facepalmed....and were suddenly Nerfed."
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:22:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Embarcadero You obviously never participated system defenses when gate is bubbled and enemy fleet is jumping in... Go get some real experience next time before you post anything so ignorant...
YEAH! GO GET SOME REAL EXPERIENCE LIKE GO TO 0.0 WHERE MISTER FLEET COMMANDER TELLS YOU WHO TO SHOOT AT BEFORE YOU POST!
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DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:23:00 -
[47]
Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 23:27:59
Originally by: Absolom Hues [Better hope you never meet a HAM Drake 1v1 with Fulmination Rage missels... that explosive hole is much bigger than the drakes thermal hole you describe.
Rage missiles?... _______________
This is EVE. Here you have the right to settle any disagreements with lethal force. |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:32:00 -
[48]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 20:23:58
Originally by: Absolom Hues [Better hope you never meet a HAM Drake 1v1 with Fulmination Rage missels... that explosive hole is much bigger than the drakes thermal hole you describe.
Rage missiles?
Actually after QR they kick ass fyi.
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Embarcadero
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:34:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Endless Subversion
Originally by: Embarcadero Pro response
So after championing a bad ship in a made up role and STILL being shown multiple ships do your imaginary role better, you're going to, literally, turn to name calling?
I'm on my main. I have A LOT of pvp experience. What about you? Who is your main?
So lets see.. Someone who never flew arbitrators is making conclusions based on his both ignorant and arrogant imagination.
Splendid!
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Mortuus
Minmatar Fat J Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:41:00 -
[50]
I lolz at system defense arbitrator...seriously, get a BC and kill a couple sniper BS before they can even burn out of the bubble...
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Mortuus
Minmatar Fat J Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.01.28 20:43:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Embarcadero
Originally by: DubanFP
Originally by: Embarcadero
Oh yeah another pile of ignorance. Tell me more what exactly vagabond pilot can do to me if I have him scrambled and webbed and orbiting him at 500 m and he has no neutralizer fitted (which happens a lot). Zealot is even easier pray.
Besides not get scrambled and webbed in the first place?
MWD away, overload MWD, overload web and scram, hit approach and he will be caught because of his mwd interia. Profit
Also, WTB Enyo with 3 mids.
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JITAALT5
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Posted - 2009.01.28 21:11:00 -
[52]
Enyo is meh considering that the taranis has similar DPS while being a lot faster and mounting full tackle. Wolf/jag on the other hand are pretty excellent if you know what you are doing, mostly due to capless weapons. Also, don't underestimate the arby. Its not a rupture/rax but bonused TDs can pretty devastating while it puts out decent enough damage. |
ArmyOfMe
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.01.28 21:44:00 -
[53]
your wrong on so many lvl's when it comes to the drake. even with web, mwd, scram its a extremly powerfull ship.
only truly overestimated ship i know is the falcon.
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2009.01.28 22:03:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 28/01/2009 22:50:29
No, no no! Drake sucks in PvP. Please don't buy it as it's only good for mission running. Honest!
Overrated:
Electronic Attack Ships:
Only really useful in a frigate wolf pack where their speed allows them to keep up with the rest of the gang. In every other situation they go pop too fast to be useful.
Assault Ships: These are more useful than ever before cos of the scram and web changes but are still less useful than other ship classes in most fights, except when flying in a frigate wolfpack (see EAS above)
Amarr Recons:
As has already been mentioned they're useless for fleet combat but do excel in small engagements. I think they are well balanced now but because the Curse was once way overpowered when fitted with nos+damps+nano people still fear them a lot.
Matari Recons:
Since the nano and web nerf these ships are no longer overpowered but some people still fear them. They're only a big threat to smaller ships now, unless they are part of a well balanced gang in which case they're still great as EW support.
Stealth Bombers:
As soon as people can fly these they jump into them wanting to instapop everything but instead proceed to get popped themselves very quickly. They're made of paper and take a lot of skill to fit/fly properly. Having said that, in a cloaking gang with an FC who knows how to use them, they're awesome.
I'd also include Caldari Recons in this list but as the Falcon has been mentioned so much already I didn't bother to. The Gallente Recons have been balanced since the damp nerf so they've not been overrated for some time.
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Yashiri
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Posted - 2009.01.28 22:25:00 -
[55]
Personal pet peeve-
Vexors'its as super l337 drone boat and teh coolsies for all these reasons;' *stupid list of reasons*
hello there o/ this is called a 'thorax' it's better than your vexor in almost every conceivable way, I have more HP, I'm faster... ooh noes you can field a full flight of drones! wait, wait no... I can do that too, and look! I have more turrets than you too! and oh my.. is that an extra low slot? y'know I think is is.
you can't outrun me you can't out tank me You can't out gank me you can't put more drones on the field than I can
f*cking vexors...
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DHB WildCat
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.01.28 22:33:00 -
[56]
Hyperion, **** DPS, and a decent tank at most.
Also I solo in a zealot so there 8P.
WildCat
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.01.28 23:00:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Mistress Evita I'm not a PvPer but I can place this on a Drake. Is this any good?
[Drake] Reactor Control Unit II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Internal Force Field Array I (CPU purposes)
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II 10MN Microwarpdrive II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missiles
Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Warrior II (5) for anti-drone defense
about 82000 Effective HP (74%EM, 77% THERM, 79% KIN, 83% EXP) shield defense efficiency of 147 DPS of 443 with the missiles and 68 for the Drones
It will run out of cap in about 3 minutes with everything running.
Is that good for a Drake if you put assault missiles on it? I'm just a mission runner and just curious. I have always been told that Drakes are no good at PvP
Yes, that's actually rather a good PvP fit. Well done, you're thinking for yourself and not hating on a ship because someone else tells you that you must. That means that if you do decide to have a go at PvP, you'll probably do quite well. It's not quite how I'd fit it, but that's more a matter of taste than actual viabilty of the fit.
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 20:23:58
Originally by: Absolom Hues [Better hope you never meet a HAM Drake 1v1 with Fulmination Rage missels... that explosive hole is much bigger than the drakes thermal hole you describe.
Rage missiles?
Yes, Rage Missiles. They're quite good, providing your shooting battlecruiser and larger. -- 249km locking? |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.01.28 23:10:00 -
[58]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 28/01/2009 23:10:56
Originally by: Yashiri Personal pet peeve-
Vexors'its as super l337 drone boat and teh coolsies for all these reasons;' *stupid list of reasons*
hello there o/ this is called a 'thorax' it's better than your vexor in almost every conceivable way, I have more HP, I'm faster... ooh noes you can field a full flight of drones! wait, wait no... I can do that too, and look! I have more turrets than you too! and oh my.. is that an extra low slot? y'know I think is is.
you can't outrun me you can't out tank me You can't out gank me you can't put more drones on the field than I can
f*cking vexors...
Actually, you're wrong. Vexors get 75m3 of drone bandwidth, on 100m3 of dronebay, with a drone damage bonus. That makes them better at putting drones in the field.
It also has a better peak damage than the Thorax - the difference in losing a turret slot, being offset by getting twice as much damage from the drones. (I don't think you'll manage to clear 700dps in a 'rax) Tank wise, yeah, the Thorax comes out ahead, but ... being able to do 300+ dps anywhere in drone control range isn't sloppy. -- 249km locking? |
Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
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Posted - 2009.01.28 23:10:00 -
[59]
An otherwise fun and informative thread degenerated into monkey**** slinging way too quickly --------------------------------------------
Yes, my name is Pompous. Yes, this has been designed for maximum deliberate effect. Well done for pointing that out. Well done you. |
Eardianm
RIGHT INDEED
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Posted - 2009.01.28 23:18:00 -
[60]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 19:37:15
Originally by: Absolom Hues Unless you are talking about faction fit... show me a Harbi or Cane fit that can break any Drake tank.
The last time I went around championing a ship with details the Rapier/Huginn went from about 10 active users to a premier PVP ship of common use even after being nerfed. Still, fit properly a RF phased plasma Cane "cost 50 mil after insurance" can deal 750+ thermal DPS which is pretty much the drake's Achilles heel. Just overload to 850+ when you reach that critical 33% and instant dead drake.
My fitting has about 41k EHP and all the numbers is with my current skillset as opposed the default level V. I have yet to meet a drake that could tank it, even the no-tackle variety cries under it. Yes I always keep RF Phased plasma M in my hanger so unless the drake is specifically fit against me it is dead. Oh, and with Hail M it does 860 DPS for armor tanks. No drake can match that.
haha you're a dumb ****ing **** --------------
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Mou'adib
Gallente Fluffy Rabbit Killers
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Posted - 2009.01.28 23:21:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Embarcadero
Originally by: Endless Subversion
Originally by: Embarcadero Pro response
So after championing a bad ship in a made up role and STILL being shown multiple ships do your imaginary role better, you're going to, literally, turn to name calling?
I'm on my main. I have A LOT of pvp experience. What about you? Who is your main?
So lets see.. Someone who never flew arbitrators is making conclusions based on his both ignorant and arrogant imagination.
Splendid!
You are the worsed PVP'er in eve You are either a massive troll or are just real bad at this game. Maybe you should just quit now before your eventual ragequit.
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ShadowGod56
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Posted - 2009.01.28 23:26:00 -
[62]
the falcon
every time i see hostile falcons in fleet ops the poor birds spine crumbles if one of us coughs in its general direction.
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DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.28 23:32:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Captain Pompous An otherwise fun and informative thread degenerated into monkey**** slinging way too quickly
Yeah it seemed to have jumped the shark around post 25. _______________
This is EVE. Here you have the right to settle any disagreements with lethal force. |
Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
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Posted - 2009.01.28 23:39:00 -
[64]
Originally by: DubanFP
Originally by: Captain Pompous An otherwise fun and informative thread degenerated into monkey**** slinging way too quickly
Yeah it seemed to have jumped the shark around post 25.
/me flips back to post 25 to see the jumping shark.
Fonzie's sailing through the air there --------------------------------------------
Yes, my name is Pompous. Yes, this has been designed for maximum deliberate effect. Well done for pointing that out. Well done you. |
Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2009.01.28 23:59:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 29/01/2009 00:14:38
I find it quite amusing that alot of the common things mentioned as overestimated are often the same that are considered underestimated.
AF, EAS and Bombers come to mind.
HACs and Recons come to mind as well.
What i liked about QR and the speed changes was that it seeded and evened out the game (and specificly how different ship sizes relate to each other) alot more. Even if there is still plenty of balance to tweak in the wake of that major overhaul, the patch did manage to revive alot of completely forgotten or underused concepts that already were in the game. These shiptypes mentioned do appear here because of that. Frigates are still frigates, but with QR they are far better, have a much better effect/cost, and can fill certain roles today they couldn't do well enough before (in the case of the frigates, because signature had a much smaller impact on the game then, than now). The Cruisers perhaps for the opposite reason. Certain people call them overestimated now, because they are not as good in QR than in previous recent patches. At the same time, they are still quite good when used right and have their solid place in the game. Many smaller 'pirate' entities have adapted to the changes and continue favour cruiser-size even post the nano-age.
Then many of these ships are also mentioned due to the timless debate over wether Tech II is really worth it, and how Tech II production, it's implementation and it's development relates to the market. It's quite easy to see that much of the Tech II material is still quite overpriced on the market, and you can see some pretty strong fluctuations on certain ship prices that provide good examples of that. When Eagles were considered 'really bad' they dipped down towards 40m on the market, today they are reaching up towards the 80m mark near the Cerberus. I highly doubt something has changed in the production cost between an Eagle and a Cerberus in recent times. More likely is that the Tech II market is still far too monopolized and infected with past issues, and present political issues.
ps. If i should name one ship that is overestimated, it's definately the Eagle right now. The Moa is not considered a great cruiser, and it's quite easy to fit an Eagle alongside a Moa and see where things went wrong with the Eagle. That it costs 80m now, that just baffles me.
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Yashiri
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Posted - 2009.01.29 00:10:00 -
[66]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Actually, you're wrong. Vexors get 75m3 of drone bandwidth, on 100m3 of dronebay, with a drone damage bonus. That makes them better at putting drones in the field.
It also has a better peak damage than the Thorax - the difference in losing a turret slot, being offset by getting twice as much damage from the drones. (I don't think you'll manage to clear 700dps in a 'rax) Tank wise, yeah, the Thorax comes out ahead, but ... being able to do 300+ dps anywhere in drone control range isn't sloppy.
this would be a good point... if the thorax didn't have it's own drone bay. with a full flight of drones (or actually 2 flights of lights for this would serve you better)you effectively negate the vexors bonuses, two flights of light drones is more than enough to destroy the drones he's got attacking you, and if his drones are attacking your drones then He's *not* attacking you which means you pull a head in the 'DPS Race' so to speak. a well flown, well fitted Thorax should beat a vexor of any competence any day, if you're not then IMO, you're doing it wrong.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.01.29 00:15:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Eardianm
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 28/01/2009 19:37:15
Originally by: Absolom Hues Unless you are talking about faction fit... show me a Harbi or Cane fit that can break any Drake tank.
The last time I went around championing a ship with details the Rapier/Huginn went from about 10 active users to a premier PVP ship of common use even after being nerfed. Still, fit properly a RF phased plasma Cane "cost 50 mil after insurance" can deal 750+ thermal DPS which is pretty much the drake's Achilles heel. Just overload to 850+ when you reach that critical 33% and instant dead drake.
My fitting has about 41k EHP and all the numbers is with my current skillset as opposed the default level V. I have yet to meet a drake that could tank it, even the no-tackle variety cries under it. Yes I always keep RF Phased plasma M in my hanger so unless the drake is specifically fit against me it is dead. Oh, and with Hail M it does 860 DPS for armor tanks. No drake can match that.
haha you're a dumb ****ing ****
Short and to the point.
Even now, after two years of HAM Drake, there's still noobs who think that a Hurricane can beat a properly-fit Drake in a sensible 1v1. 41k EHP? That's pathetic, it's paper-thin. The Drake has more than double that, is faster and much more agile, and will deal more DPS because the Hurricane can't get to its pathetic optimal, while the Drake hits it with Terror Rage for full damage from 18 km.
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ry ry
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Posted - 2009.01.29 00:18:00 -
[68]
Edited by: ry ry on 29/01/2009 00:18:07
crows. they're pretty rubbish.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.01.29 00:27:00 -
[69]
Originally by: DHB WildCat Hyperion, **** DPS, and a decent tank at most.
Wat?
Also going to agree that Amarr Recons are way overestimated in most situations. The Curse is a shadow of its former self, and the Pilgrim is really vulnerable to getting its ass handed to it if the target has reinforcements. But they look so sexy
BTW, the Drake is a great ship if you don't fit it like a ****** with 4 SPR II in the lows.
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BiggestT
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.01.29 06:28:00 -
[70]
Originally by: DubanFP
Drake: A lot of people fly it for the OMG super-tank it can fit. That's good but it suffers from so many drawbacks as a result in the end there's much better choices. It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank and even fitting one scram puts you at a disadvantage even if its slightly reasonable.
While I like your post in general and share your un-relenting hatred for af's, this comment is quite incorrect. Proof:
[Drake, Lol copy 1 copy 1] Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile [empty high slot] <--Overheating offline mod
Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x5
While I dislike using combat drones over ecm drones, this thing gets near 600dps and 81k ehp :o
EVE history
t2 precisions |
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Embarcadero
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Posted - 2009.01.29 06:37:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Mou'adib You are the worsed PVP'er in eve You are either a massive troll or are just real bad at this game. Maybe you should just quit now before your eventual ragequit.
Talking about worst EVE pvpers Mou'adib over 3 years hasn't killed a single ship and isn't showing up on an any killboard and is a member of some pathetic hi sec corp.
touche
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Death Merchant
InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.01.29 07:02:00 -
[72]
Astarte/Deimos.
Blasterships in general tbh.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.01.29 07:13:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Death Merchant Astarte/Deimos.Blasterships in general tbh.
Ishkur, Incursus and Ranis are top notch, Brutix is great aswell with its price considered. Dominix and Tristan whilst they may not be blasterboats per se are also great.
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.01.29 08:55:00 -
[74]
Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: DubanFP
Drake: A lot of people fly it for the OMG super-tank it can fit. That's good but it suffers from so many drawbacks as a result in the end there's much better choices. It can't fit the standard MWD/scram/web combo without completely screwing over the tank and even fitting one scram puts you at a disadvantage even if its slightly reasonable.
While I like your post in general and share your un-relenting hatred for af's, this comment is quite incorrect. Proof:
[Drake, Lol copy 1 copy 1] Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile [empty high slot] <--Overheating offline mod
Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x5
While I dislike using combat drones over ecm drones, this thing gets near 600dps and 81k ehp :o
Use 1 LSE and 2 invus, gives better ehp plus more stuff to overload to make it even better. Drop the RCU for 3rd BCU, change WD into scrambler. Needs awu5 or grid implant but the change is well worth it. Otherwise PDU instead of 1 BCU if you dont have awu5/grid implant to get some slight tank improvement.
Tested this against slaved trimarked hurricane and won. Than again I'm not entirely sure about said hurricane's competence, but still I made no attempts to move away or something, was just a straightforward damage exchange.
Gets about 670 dps with my skills, not exactly 850 of a hurricane or 800 of harb so it's probably slightly inferior for gang work when not shot at, but combined with way better tank and better mobility - not to mention no need to rep yourself after every fight - it should come out notably better overall. |
Skira Ranos
Blood Money Inc.
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Posted - 2009.01.29 10:44:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Skira Ranos on 29/01/2009 10:44:31
Originally by: Death Merchant Astarte/Deimos.
Blasterships in general tbh.
Seconded. Skill tends to trump close range DPS...
That doesn't mean I think blaster boats are BAD, just overatted. |
TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.29 11:24:00 -
[76]
Assault frigates, electronc warfare frigates (except kitsune) and drakes are generally overrated. Most people will avoid drakes but usually their tanks are pretty menial.
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Ione Hunt
0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.01.29 11:29:00 -
[77]
Love gankathrons, but they're definitely more vulnerable after the last patch. Before I used to solo with a gankathron, because I hit up to around 29km, and if I got a web on the target, it usually melted quickly.
Now with the web changes, this isn't really feasible any longer unless you fight only BC and larger. Damp Rapier and Gankathron combo still rocks though _______________
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.01.29 12:26:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Skira Ranos Edited by: Skira Ranos on 29/01/2009 10:44:31
Originally by: Death Merchant Astarte/Deimos.
Blasterships in general tbh.
Seconded. Skill tends to trump close range DPS...
That doesn't mean I think blaster boats are BAD, just overatted.
I don't think they are overestimated. Anyone who has a damned clue knows blasterships are hurting.
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2009.01.29 13:07:00 -
[79]
AF, HAC, CS in general(if not using roles like Sniper Hacs or Gang Boni), AFs are fun, but they are expensive Frigs, thats it.
Solo Ability of Recons with Cov Ops Cloak especialy after QR(Rapier is now cap to, Arazu was before, Pilgram isn¦t stellar but halve deacend).
The Ability of Blasterships to punch thrue and kill anything in sight(especialy in the sub BS area). Even in the BS class DPS increasement isn¦t this high over other Ships/Weapons and only apeers with very sensitive operating/manuvering in Optimal Range or swith to higher Range to counter Tracking Issues.
Nano Fits in QR(or lets say speed Fits), because many people don¦t realize that they won¦t be out of Disruptor Range in 2-3 Seconds and they aren¦t this untuchable any more be common Weapons.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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H0RZA
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Posted - 2009.01.29 13:21:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Even now, after two years of HAM Drake, there's still noobs who think that a Hurricane can beat a properly-fit Drake in a sensible 1v1. 41k EHP? That's pathetic, it's paper-thin. The Drake has more than double that, is faster and much more agile, and will deal more DPS because the Hurricane can't get to its pathetic optimal, while the Drake hits it with Terror Rage for full damage from 18 km.
Faster and more agile? Can I please buy the drakes that you're buying? The ones I'm seeing are 1,500,000kg heavier and have a 25m/s slower base speed than a cane. Also, they're nearly 150m/s slower if both are fitted with a T2 MWD.
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2009.01.29 13:49:00 -
[81]
Originally by: ***ZA
Originally by: Gypsio III
Even now, after two years of HAM Drake, there's still noobs who think that a Hurricane can beat a properly-fit Drake in a sensible 1v1. 41k EHP? That's pathetic, it's paper-thin. The Drake has more than double that, is faster and much more agile, and will deal more DPS because the Hurricane can't get to its pathetic optimal, while the Drake hits it with Terror Rage for full damage from 18 km.
Faster and more agile? Can I please buy the drakes that you're buying? The ones I'm seeing are 1,500,000kg heavier and have a 25m/s slower base speed than a cane. Also, they're nearly 150m/s slower if both are fitted with a T2 MWD.
Plates/Trimarks reduce Agility and Speed, Shield Extenders and Shield Rigs dont... |
ry ry
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Posted - 2009.01.29 13:53:00 -
[82]
Edited by: ry ry on 29/01/2009 13:54:13
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.29 14:01:00 -
[83]
Originally by: ry ry
I dunno what ship your commenting on but its a cloaker....
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H0RZA
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Posted - 2009.01.29 14:18:00 -
[84]
Originally by: The Djego Plates/Trimarks reduce Agility and Speed, Shield Extenders and Shield Rigs dont...
I don't doubt it. But then I never was a fan of cut'n'paste ship setups. I don't often use tri-marks on a cane, and while plates affect agility, top speed remains the same. Even then, I don't use plates as a matter of course.
I never was that good at the forum version of Eve-O... and I never really got the fascination with the 1v1 thingy either(IÆm slow like that), since I only ever PvP in fairly organised gangs.
So long as I can fill a role with something resembling competency, thatÆll do for me.
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.01.29 14:37:00 -
[85]
Edited by: fkingfurious on 29/01/2009 14:43:36
Originally by: ***ZA
Originally by: The Djego Plates/Trimarks reduce Agility and Speed, Shield Extenders and Shield Rigs dont...
I don't doubt it. But then I never was a fan of cut'n'paste ship setups. I don't often use tri-marks on a cane, and while plates affect agility, top speed remains the same. Even then, I don't use plates as a matter of course.
I never was that good at the forum version of Eve-O... and I never really got the fascination with the 1v1 thingy either(IÆm slow like that), since I only ever PvP in fairly organised gangs.
So long as I can fill a role with something resembling competency, thatÆll do for me.
Plates don't affect your BASE velocity, but the increased mass affects your maximum MWD velocity. However, a 1600 plated cane is still faster under MWD than a drake, assuming it's unrigged. The agility penalty will have a negative affect though, and assuming that the Drake is attempting to keep itself out of point blank range it will take the Cane some time to get into optimal for its oft quoted 850DPS, and all the time it's closing in the Drake will be beating it down with the full force of the newly awesome rage assaults and making an awful mess of the Cane's not very impressive HP buffer.
Give me the Drake anyday.
EDIT: Where the **** is this 800+ dps figure coming from anyway? With LVL 5 skills (just for a laugh) Hobgoblin II's (as if) 425 II's (for further fail) and RF EMP (crap for killing Drakes with btw) it does 627DPS. I think someone is making **** up.
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ry ry
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Posted - 2009.01.29 14:40:00 -
[86]
i wish my ****ing hurricane did 850 DPS :(
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.01.29 14:42:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Endless Subversion on 29/01/2009 14:41:56
Originally by: ***ZA I don't often use tri-marks on a cane, and while plates affect agility, top speed remains the same.
Top MWD/AB speed is reduced when you fit a plate, although base ships speed remains the same.
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.01.29 14:57:00 -
[88]
Originally by: ry ry i wish my ****ing hurricane did 850 DPS :(
Train some skills. :P
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.01.29 15:04:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Vrabac on 29/01/2009 15:04:46
Originally by: fkingfurious EDIT: Where the **** is this 800+ dps figure coming from anyway? With LVL 5 skills (just for a laugh) Hobgoblin II's (as if) 425 II's (for further fail) 3 x Gyro's (so no tank) and RF EMP (crap for killing Drakes with btw) it does 627DPS. I think someone is making **** up.
I'm not "making **** up". Lvl 5 skills are something easily beaten with
a) actually traning them to lvl 5 b) using hardwirings
There is also such ammo as Hail M (very useful no matter what people say on forums) and 2 slots for launchers.
Have a peek
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H0RZA
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Posted - 2009.01.29 15:21:00 -
[90]
Edited by: ***ZA on 29/01/2009 15:22:17 Edited by: ***ZA on 29/01/2009 15:21:31 Well, it shows you how much I've actually tested these things on TQ!
My understanding of a plated setup was that it will add mass to a ship, meaning it takes longer to reach top speed, but doesn't actually lower top speed. Obviously wrong - point taken.
But as I said, I've never been in a 1v1 situation of any real value, so theoretical comparisons between ship A and ship B don't really come in to play for me that much. IÆm happy to get a few ships blown up before I work out what does and doesn't do the job. And in a given situation, I tend to fly and fit ships to fill a role against an enemy gang that changes ship types, and changes tactics from day to day.
I fly a cane because I like canes. That's as complicated as I like it to be.
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.01.29 15:33:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Vrabac Edited by: Vrabac on 29/01/2009 15:04:46
Originally by: fkingfurious EDIT: Where the **** is this 800+ dps figure coming from anyway? With LVL 5 skills (just for a laugh) Hobgoblin II's (as if) 425 II's (for further fail) 3 x Gyro's (so no tank) and RF EMP (crap for killing Drakes with btw) it does 627DPS. I think someone is making **** up.
I'm not "making **** up". Lvl 5 skills are something easily beaten with
a) actually traning them to lvl 5 b) using hardwirings
There is also such ammo as Hail M (very useful no matter what people say on forums) and 2 slots for launchers.
Have a peek
Ah yes, the totally ****ing stupid absolutely maximum possible damage with overloading and a 150 odd mills worth of implants but still pretty ****ing awful setup.
Yes you could fit your ship like that, but you would lose.
And look very very silly. |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.01.29 15:37:00 -
[92]
Originally by: fkingfurious
Originally by: Vrabac Edited by: Vrabac on 29/01/2009 15:04:46
Originally by: fkingfurious EDIT: Where the **** is this 800+ dps figure coming from anyway? With LVL 5 skills (just for a laugh) Hobgoblin II's (as if) 425 II's (for further fail) 3 x Gyro's (so no tank) and RF EMP (crap for killing Drakes with btw) it does 627DPS. I think someone is making **** up.
I'm not "making **** up". Lvl 5 skills are something easily beaten with
a) actually traning them to lvl 5 b) using hardwirings
There is also such ammo as Hail M (very useful no matter what people say on forums) and 2 slots for launchers.
Have a peek
Ah yes, the totally ****ing stupid absolutely maximum possible damage with overloading and a 150 odd mills worth of implants but still pretty ****ing awful setup.
Yes you could fit your ship like that, but you would lose.
And look very very silly.
Google some. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.01.29 16:53:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 29/01/2009 16:58:03
Originally by: ry ry i wish my ****ing hurricane did 850 DPS :(
My Drake does 850 DPS.
Well, actually, it doesn't. But if I had max skills, 5% missile ROF and HAM damage implants, Terror Rage and 5x Hobgoblin IIs, and then I overloaded the HAMLs, a triple-BCS Drake would do 850 DPS at ~17 km.
Of course, by those absurd rules, the other BCs could probably get over 1000 DPS.
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P'uck
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Posted - 2009.01.29 17:46:00 -
[94]
I don't think those rules arent all that absurd. You see a lot of folk flying around with dual 5%dmg implants, triple dmg mods and (close to) max skills in their favourite weapon category. (Usually the same category as the one they bought the second dmg implant for ) |
achoura
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Posted - 2009.01.29 17:50:00 -
[95]
Oh there are afew ppl using that very cane setup, with slaves ofc. Usually once ship no 3 explodes the rest run, it's very real and very lethal. |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.01.29 18:06:00 -
[96]
Originally by: achoura Oh there are afew ppl using that very cane setup, with slaves ofc. Usually once ship no 3 explodes the rest run, it's very real and very lethal.
Actually I'm not using slaves on that one since it needs 5% grid implant in slot 6. Would need to drop down to 220s in that case I'm afraid. It's still very effective although certainly not the best ballanced mix.
Some people I know that use it with slaves use mixed guns, something I really hate doing. Or use 220s, 2 eanms and 2 gyros with rof + dmg rigs getting slightly less dps but considerably more tank since 2nd eanm with slaves easily beats 1 eanm with trimarks.
But yeah I COULD fit like that but I WOULD lose because I dont really know what I'm talking about and I also look very very silly unlike mr civire alt over there.
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Julius Romanus
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.29 19:22:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Embarcadero
Originally by: Endless Subversion Omen / Arbitrator
I can't remember how many times I've seen these ships mentioned as viable cruisers.
The vexor, thorax, rupture and blackbird are pretty much the only t1 cruisers worth anything with a nod towards caracals in an anti-frig role.
FYI Arbitrator with TD's will halt 1-2 sniper BS's EASILY.
fYi a tracking disruptor wont hit reliably past about 90km. ------------------ For Medicinal Use Only. |
Julius Romanus
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.01.29 21:00:00 -
[98]
Most over-estimated ship to me is the Curse. It's a decent solo boat if you limit yourself to gun cruisers, and BC's if you have the time. Post nano age it's lost a lot of survivability, and in a gang is easy to push off grid w/ heavy missile platforms(cerb, drake, ect). Havent seen what jav hams can do after the rebalance, but they used to also be effective w/o heavy nano.
It's not a bad ship, but its not even close to the same league as it was before the nos nerf(utterly broken), and not on the same level as it was before the nano nerf(highly effective). ------------------ For Medicinal Use Only. |
DubanFP
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.01.29 21:48:00 -
[99]
Edited by: DubanFP on 29/01/2009 22:02:16
Originally by: fkingfurious
Ah yes, the totally ****ing stupid absolutely maximum possible damage with overloading and a 150 odd mills worth of implants but still pretty ****ing awful setup.
Yes you could fit your ship like that, but you would lose.
And look very very silly.
Actually I do it with a 50 mil ship "post insurance" plus about 30 mil in implants with my current skillset, no overloading. In theory nearly 900 DPS unoverloaded is possible while still fitting a 1600mm plate with perfect skills and another 15 mil CPU implant. This means its quite possible to break 1,000+ overloaded if you want to take it to the extreme. My current is like 990DPS overloaded.
The thing is I've been working on my Hurricane fitting for over a year, slowly raising the DPS more and more. Honestly I was impressed when i hit 600 DPS in late 07'. Yes, all fittings include a mwd/scram/web and no fitting mods.
Although I prefer the Cane I know the Harbinger can match it or at least come very close to matching it. Finally the sooner you kill your enemy the less time they have to call reinforcements or spring their trap. So more DPS means increased survivabillity. |
echohead
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Posted - 2009.01.29 22:11:00 -
[100]
I hate to beat a dead horse here, but there are no overrated ships. Despite the number of threads saying everything should be boosted or nerfed.
Eve is a game of teamwork, and I do not mean blob warfare. With teamwork many of the ships people say are useless really shine. |
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ashellia
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Posted - 2009.01.30 12:05:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Visceroth
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert ...Minny ones are not enough tank for my liking. The Amarr ones are really the only ones worth flying for more reasons than gang bonus.
[Sleipnir, PvP] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II F-43 Repeatative LADAR Backup Sensors
Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Siege Warfare Link - Active Shielding
Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
503 DPS tank...is that good? Can last 5 minutes.
single ECCM on a minnie ship EM resist rigs no MWD
do u even fly minmatar?
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Diomidis
Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.30 12:14:00 -
[102]
Originally by: ashellia single ECCM on a minnie ship EM resist rigs no MWD
do u even fly minmatar?
It's not that bad for the price if you wish to use it for station hugging in empire wars or low-sec ganking...tho the EM rig is a tad weird...use dual Core Defence Operational Solidifier Is... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! |
Damon Runyon
Aquila Astrum
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Posted - 2009.01.30 14:05:00 -
[103]
My Rapier's been very disappointing lately - mainly due to web nerf, but also because I get jammed so often these days.
Fitting one ECCM is fair enough, but fitting two seems likely to kill most decent/accepted Minmatar fits.
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Reaver Babe
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Posted - 2009.01.30 14:21:00 -
[104]
Originally by: ZW Dewitt Falcon: people act as if the fight is over the second one uncloaks.
apparently somebody only flies in large gangs/fleets, because in small gangs (5 or fewer people) that is exactly the case.
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Reaver Babe
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Posted - 2009.01.30 14:23:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Damon Runyon My Rapier's been very disappointing lately - mainly due to web nerf, but also because I get jammed so often these days.
Fitting one ECCM is fair enough, but fitting two seems likely to kill most decent/accepted Minmatar fits.
try flying a ship that only has 3 mids and HAS to devote them to MWD/web/point just in order to be able to do its job. ****es you off even more then =(
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fivetide humidyear
Gallente EXCESS10N
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Posted - 2009.01.30 14:58:00 -
[106]
AF's tend to die to quite a lot of ships for another reason too, especially if the BC is well flown and fitted......ec-300 drones.
i always fit them, people assume that ecm drones are for running away, i use them to break the lock of scrambling AB ships to extend range and force them to consider what to do next as my AC / pulses are now in a much better place, not that 220mm AC don't track pretty well anyway.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.01.30 15:53:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 29/01/2009 16:58:03
Originally by: ry ry i wish my ****ing hurricane did 850 DPS :(
My Drake does 850 DPS.
Well, actually, it doesn't. But if I had max skills, 5% missile ROF and HAM damage implants, Terror Rage and 5x Hobgoblin IIs, and then I overloaded the HAMLs, a triple-BCS Drake would do 850 DPS at ~17 km.
Of course, by those absurd rules, the other BCs could probably get over 1000 DPS.
I can't get the Harbinger over 926/934 (AN Multi/Conflag) without faction gear and officer implants - max skills, 5% damage, 5% RoF, hammer IIs, 3x HS, overloaded heavy pulse lasers... don't know what I'm missing. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.01.30 16:13:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 29/01/2009 16:58:03
Originally by: ry ry i wish my ****ing hurricane did 850 DPS :(
My Drake does 850 DPS.
Well, actually, it doesn't. But if I had max skills, 5% missile ROF and HAM damage implants, Terror Rage and 5x Hobgoblin IIs, and then I overloaded the HAMLs, a triple-BCS Drake would do 850 DPS at ~17 km.
Of course, by those absurd rules, the other BCs could probably get over 1000 DPS.
I can't get the Harbinger over 926/934 (AN Multi/Conflag) without faction gear and officer implants - max skills, 5% damage, 5% RoF, hammer IIs, 3x HS, overloaded heavy pulse lasers... don't know what I'm missing.
Probably nothing, the "1000 DPS" figure was just a guess on my part.
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Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.30 16:29:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Terianna Eri
I can't get the Harbinger over 926/934 (AN Multi/Conflag) without faction gear and officer implants - max skills, 5% damage, 5% RoF, hammer IIs, 3x HS, overloaded heavy pulse lasers... don't know what I'm missing.
Probably nothing, the "1000 DPS" figure was just a guess on my part.
When 3 damage mods is not enough - use 4 of them That said, while it's pretty inefficient, you gain around 40 DPS, lower/higher depending on ship ofc. Technically I can see some cases where such kind of fit or 3 damage mods+rof/dmg rigs would get you most bang for the buck. Whether it's worth it is debatable ofc
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truckdriverED
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Posted - 2009.01.30 16:50:00 -
[110]
falcons.. everything else.. All of the ships are overrated except for the real crap ships.. The only thing that you need is numbers.
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2009.01.30 17:03:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Terianna Eri
I can't get the Harbinger over 926/934 (AN Multi/Conflag) without faction gear and officer implants - max skills, 5% damage, 5% RoF, hammer IIs, 3x HS, overloaded heavy pulse lasers... don't know what I'm missing.
Probably nothing, the "1000 DPS" figure was just a guess on my part.
When 3 damage mods is not enough - use 4 of them That said, while it's pretty inefficient, you gain around 40 DPS, lower/higher depending on ship ofc. Technically I can see some cases where such kind of fit or 3 damage mods+rof/dmg rigs would get you most bang for the buck. Whether it's worth it is debatable ofc
Well it is quite possible to fit 4 Damagemods on a Raven\Mealstorm in realistic setups. Would even do this on my Mega if the stacking penalty wouldn¦t be this harsh, since my 3 MFS fit allways feels a bit like it is lacking DPS(even with Imps and Large Blaster Spec 5 ). |
Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.01.30 17:07:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/01/2009 17:11:48 Not-so-stealthy "BAWWWWW I don't know how to fly Caldari in PVP" thread.
Harbingers are amazing, however. Imo, Zealots and Ishtars are overrated/overestimated. It's not that they're bad, obviously. It's just that if you can fly either of those, you can probably fly something else that will fill the job better.
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Stab Wounds
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.01.30 17:15:00 -
[113]
hurricane > other BC. Drake is gay.
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Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.30 17:17:00 -
[114]
Originally by: The Djego
Well it is quite possible to fit 4 Damagemods on a Raven\Mealstorm in realistic setups. Would even do this on my Mega if the stacking penalty wouldn¦t be this harsh, since my 3 MFS fit allways feels a bit like it is lacking DPS(even with Imps and Large Blaster Spec 5 ).
Yeah, well, could add Sleipnir, shield-buffered Hurricane/Harbinger to the list. DPS always leaves some to be desired, just that you sacrifice too much with armor-tanked ships(I'd consider putting rof+dmg rigs on 3xgyro Hurri though, trimarks are meh on BCs) :)
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John McHauler
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Posted - 2009.01.30 18:33:00 -
[115]
Ahh. I love me the hurricane.
I went toe to toe with a HAM drake and Won... sooo what does that tell you?
The HAM drake is a pretty awesome ship.. but so is the Hurricane. I'm a big fan of the Dual Webbing.
I also favor Dual Neuts instead of the extra missile DPS. It hurts ships in a number of different ways, and Benefits the cane's cap-less weapons.
With Dual nuets you still do 700-ish DPS with RF EMP, more when overheated, and you'll tear harbingers apart, and still be able to Drop HAM drakes if you fly properly.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.01.30 18:36:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Damon Runyon My Rapier's been very disappointing lately - mainly due to web nerf, but also because I get jammed so often these days.
Fitting one ECCM is fair enough, but fitting two seems likely to kill most decent/accepted Minmatar fits.
Have you tried target painters? They're actually rather awesome. |
Glach Duwat
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Posted - 2009.01.30 18:40:00 -
[117]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Damon Runyon My Rapier's been very disappointing lately - mainly due to web nerf, but also because I get jammed so often these days.
Fitting one ECCM is fair enough, but fitting two seems likely to kill most decent/accepted Minmatar fits.
Have you tried target painters? They're actually rather awesome.
speaking of Rapiers and Target painters... on a Solo set up, would you go two webs, or 1 web and 1 TP?
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.30 19:08:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/01/2009 17:11:48 Not-so-stealthy "BAWWWWW I don't know how to fly Caldari in PVP" thread.
Harbingers are amazing, however. Imo, Zealots and Ishtars are overrated/overestimated. It's not that they're bad, obviously. It's just that if you can fly either of those, you can probably fly something else that will fill the job better.
Depends on what you're doing really.
Also, arbitrators are overrated. Not because they are bad for any reason, but because 4 TDs > 3 Bonused TDs. People go around saying how good they are for their ewar when a celestis makes a better TD ship than they do.(as does a myrmidon)
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.01.30 20:15:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Zealots are overrated
brb locator agent |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.01.30 21:06:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Vrabac on 30/01/2009 21:08:20
Originally by: John McHauler I went toe to toe with a HAM drake and Won... sooo what does that tell you?
I did too, but was his problem not mine.
Also went toe to toe with a RF EMP using dual neut hurri in a harb and won... sooo etc
The main issue behind using neuts for me is the fact that most targets will die way before they kick in. Cap boosterless absos or similar cases aside, I prefer just doing more damage since that's the main idea behind such fit.
Not to say each approach hasn't got its good and bad sides and no doubt neuts are useful in a number of ways, especially now with web nerf and amount of ABing scraming assault frigs running about.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.01.30 22:07:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Harbingers are amazing, however. Imo, Zealots and Ishtars are overrated/overestimated. It's not that they're bad, obviously. It's just that if you can fly either of those, you can probably fly something else that will fill the job better.
Depends on what you're doing really.
This. |
Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2009.01.30 22:27:00 -
[122]
In an attempted to go back on-topic for overrated ships:
* Capital ships - Many people start training for these without clear idea why they want them. Probably would get more fun, and even efficiency, in some other direction.
* FOTM / Standard setups - They definitely work well in their envelope. Then again, in Eve small scale PVP the biggest challenge is persuading winnable targets to fight you, which is little bit harder in predictable setup.
-Lasse fond of Ela B's combat Rorqual |
Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.01.30 22:53:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/01/2009 22:55:38
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Zealots are overrated
brb locator agent
Originally by: Goumindong Depends on what you're doing really.
Then I still don't see it.
Zealot: Yes, it has range. But it's a primarymobile. It's paper thin. Yes, you can pop inties if they're 40km away and heading for you. If they get to you, you're screwed. You're not fast or tanky enough to get back to a gate if you jump into an ambush. You're not fast enough to outrun an ambush. If you're not primaried, you're going to be jammed. Big blob fight? You lag? You're dead. Small fight? Well, you know the drill!
The way I see it: if you're left alone you're going to wreck ****. But if you're going to wreck **** if left alone, you're not going to get left alone.
Harbinger: It doesn't have range, yes, that's true. Not a primarymobile. Can fit a medium neut. Can fit Warrior IIs. Has a chance of getting back to the gate.
Could be just a playstyle thing. I like flying ships that stay alive for a while.
To be fair, I was going to say: "HACs are overrated/overestimated", but IMO the Cerb, Vagabond, and Sacrilege are amazing ships.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.01.30 23:15:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Stuff
Zealots can do many things a Binger cannot. It's faster, more agile and has more range. Yes, it has a weaker tank, but for say sniper HAC fights, good luck doing anything worthwhile in your tanked up Binger.
They are just different. The Zealot is a scalpel, the Harbinger is a sledgehammer. You use one where finesse is required, the other when IT'S CLOBBERING TIME!!! :thething:
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Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.01.31 00:21:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 31/01/2009 00:21:50
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Stuff
Zealots can do many things a Binger cannot. It's faster, more agile and has more range. Yes, it has a weaker tank, but for say sniper HAC fights, good luck doing anything worthwhile in your tanked up Binger.
They are just different. The Zealot is a scalpel, the Harbinger is a sledgehammer. You use one where finesse is required, the other when IT'S CLOBBERING TIME!!! :thething:
Yeah, I understand those points.
As I said, it's a question of playstyle. (I personally don't enjoy flying glass cannons.) |
Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.01.31 00:27:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv EDIT: Terriana, I've seen you agreeing in many other posts that in general, the Harbinger is a better ship.
1 r, 2 n's
I know I've said the Harbinger is more flexible. I don't think I've said it's objectively or strictly better.
And the Zealot is much, much faster than the harbinger... 2100+ m/s overloaded is plenty fast enough to get back to a gate. Hell, it's about fast enough to burn AWAY from the gate and leave. (but not quite) |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.31 02:38:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Yeah, I understand those points.
As I said, it's a question of playstyle. (I personally don't enjoy flying glass cannons.)
Don't think of it as a glass cannon. Think of it as a "doesn't stay around long enough to get shot at cannon"
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.01.31 02:54:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Terianna Eri on 31/01/2009 02:54:03
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Yeah, I understand those points.
As I said, it's a question of playstyle. (I personally don't enjoy flying glass cannons.)
Don't think of it as a glass cannon. Think of it as a "doesn't stay around long enough to get shot at cannon"
A glass cannon with WHEELS :D whooooooosh~ ...
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar Fleet of the Damned B.L.A.C.K.
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Posted - 2009.01.31 03:01:00 -
[129]
Personally I think the curse is a bit over rated, they can be nasty but not the instant I win button.
I used to think the ishtar was pretty over rated but a few recent encounters have changed my mind, when its flown by someone competent it's pretty good.
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Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.01.31 06:40:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv EDIT: Terriana, I've seen you agreeing in many other posts that in general, the Harbinger is a better ship.
1 r, 2 n's
Gawsh >,<
Quote: I know I've said the Harbinger is more flexible. I don't think I've said it's objectively or strictly better.
Ah, pardon. I must have unwittingly interjected my own opinion. |
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.01.31 07:14:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Deschenus Maximus on 31/01/2009 07:15:06
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Yeah, I understand those points.
As I said, it's a question of playstyle. (I personally don't enjoy flying glass cannons.)
Don't think of it as a glass cannon. Think of it as a "doesn't stay around long enough to get shot at cannon"
Precisely. The role of the Zealot is to apply massive amounts of DPS unto a target, and disengage the moment it is treathened. It simply doesn't have any of the tools necessary to act in a very efficient manner in other situations: no drone bay, very limited buffer, limited active tanking capacity because of grid and cpu restrictctions, as well as cap restrictions.
HOWEVER, as long as you understand, AND ACCEPT, theses limitations, and employ the Zealot in situations where it is at its best, you will begin to understand why Binger > Zealot is a fallacy. |
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