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Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.06 02:34:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
I see you're still around bumping my thread to keep it on page one for more support! Thank you!
I'm staying active on here because I'm a voice of dissent.
Your idea is stupid and would severely cripple a feature of EVE plenty of people like and use.
I won't just sit here and ignore that.
There's been.. hmm.. 3 or 4 people speak against it.. vs. 47 supporting?
Seems like more people like it than don't. vOv
Guess it's not such a stupid idea.
Try 9, not including myself.
Want to play the numbers game? Here is a thread that doesn't even propose a game change that has over 1000 supports. And I doubt it will even matter much.
I don't care how many people and alts support your stupid idea. It's a stupid idea, and I will continue to argue against it. |
Dark Flare
Caldari 0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.02.06 02:36:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
I see you're still around bumping my thread to keep it on page one for more support! Thank you!
I'm staying active on here because I'm a voice of dissent.
Your idea is stupid and would severely cripple a feature of EVE plenty of people like and use.
I won't just sit here and ignore that.
LOL. Yeah, removing a month of not training anything interesting would cripple EVE and make it horrible to play :( |
Efrim Black
Gallente Apellon
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Posted - 2009.02.06 02:40:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Dark Flare
LOL. Yeah, removing a month of not training anything interesting would cripple EVE and make it horrible to play :(
No - Idiot. You did not read my previous posts.
But instead of linking or explaining them I'll just point out you don't have to train them all at once and they are optional. |
Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.06 02:40:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Dark Flare
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
I see you're still around bumping my thread to keep it on page one for more support! Thank you!
I'm staying active on here because I'm a voice of dissent.
Your idea is stupid and would severely cripple a feature of EVE plenty of people like and use.
I won't just sit here and ignore that.
LOL. Yeah, removing a month of not training anything interesting would cripple EVE and make it horrible to play :(
uh people arent required to train it... all it would do is remove options, not requirements. |
FugginNutz
Chinchilla Industries Manifest Destiny.
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Posted - 2009.02.06 05:43:00 -
[125]
Edited by: FugginNutz on 06/02/2009 05:45:16 Supporting OP's post. Learning skills can be established at character creation, not by wasting time and isk, training them in a game where you are trying to gain skills suited to your career path.
--- |
Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.06 06:01:00 -
[126]
Ok, i think we need to get to the root of the problem here first.. because it seems people are demanding 2 things as if you cant have one without the other.
First off, Ok, you don't like/want to train learning skills because its a "timesink" even though its a timesink that makes other skills "less" of a timesink, so it basically nullifies itself out to being beneficial instead of a "sink". Like putting isk into physicals assets that appreciate over time, you're spending the isk and not seeing any returns on it until later in the future... as an investment.
But we'll just say learning skills are a stupid timesink that no one should have to do. Alright, thats settled.
Soooo... where does this attribute boost come from? This is a completely separate issue, especially considering it would be far more "fair and balanced" to "not" give anyone an attribute bonus to "replace" learning skills. So either you're asking for a "replacement" or a "removal" of this skills, a determination which needs to be made. But why give the boost. Lets just make this simple, drop the learning skills... done. Everyone now trains at a relatively similar rate (minus implants) and everyone should be happy yes? Timesink learning skills are gone, new players arent "forced" into training learning skills first anymore, this is a win win situation, but apparently 2 isnt enough and we want a 3rd win of getting attribute points. This is like having your cake and eating it too with another one on the table, and is excessive to say the least.
So whats the justification for the points? Everyone trains faster? how is that relevant or necessary, considering most advocates for this want it to be fair and remove the timesink... so its fair to new players not being behind older players and the learning skill timesink is gone. But whats this.. cries of outrage that all skills now take longer to learn since we're running on base attributes? well thats a sacrifice to be made... you wish to take away what is a choice, not a requirement, so now everyone has to take longer to train all their skills. In this scenario the wasteful timesink of learning skills doesnt sound like so much of a waste anymore does it?
Personally i don't advocate the removal of the learning skills... people just need to be better educated about them. But if they removed them, i would be wholeheartedly against an attribute boost in its place. So if they're gone, then thats it, everyone gets to take longer to train everything, end of story. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.06 06:35:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Thann Starlinbow on 06/02/2009 06:36:27
Originally by: Nnamuachs Ok, i think we need to get to the root of the problem here first.. because it seems people are demanding 2 things as if you cant have one without the other.
First off, Ok, you don't like/want to train learning skills because its a "timesink" even though its a timesink that makes other skills "less" of a timesink, so it basically nullifies itself out to being beneficial instead of a "sink". Like putting isk into physicals assets that appreciate over time, you're spending the isk and not seeing any returns on it until later in the future... as an investment.
But we'll just say learning skills are a stupid timesink that no one should have to do. Alright, thats settled.
Soooo... where does this attribute boost come from? This is a completely separate issue, especially considering it would be far more "fair and balanced" to "not" give anyone an attribute bonus to "replace" learning skills. So either you're asking for a "replacement" or a "removal" of this skills, a determination which needs to be made. But why give the boost. Lets just make this simple, drop the learning skills... done. Everyone now trains at a relatively similar rate (minus implants) and everyone should be happy yes? Timesink learning skills are gone, new players arent "forced" into training learning skills first anymore, this is a win win situation, but apparently 2 isnt enough and we want a 3rd win of getting attribute points. This is like having your cake and eating it too with another one on the table, and is excessive to say the least.
So whats the justification for the points? Everyone trains faster? how is that relevant or necessary, considering most advocates for this want it to be fair and remove the timesink... so its fair to new players not being behind older players and the learning skill timesink is gone. But whats this.. cries of outrage that all skills now take longer to learn since we're running on base attributes? well thats a sacrifice to be made... you wish to take away what is a choice, not a requirement, so now everyone has to take longer to train all their skills. In this scenario the wasteful timesink of learning skills doesnt sound like so much of a waste anymore does it?
Personally i don't advocate the removal of the learning skills... people just need to be better educated about them. But if they removed them, i would be wholeheartedly against an attribute boost in its place. So if they're gone, then thats it, everyone gets to take longer to train everything, end of story.
Other than a complete arbitrary "It should be done this way because it makes a proposal I don't like look worse!" answer the 'Why?' behind not boosting the base attributes after removing Learning skills.
edit for more relevance: The entire point of removing the Learning skills is it's a huge timesink of a skill that discourages newer players. Removing them and then not boosting attributes leaves us in the same position, more or less. Your arguement has no merit.
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Drykor
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.06 10:29:00 -
[128]
Not supporting this unless it's guaranteed we get an SP refund. Me and many others DID take the time to train advanced learning to 5, that takes a long time and is a real investment in the future and I'm not letting that go to waste just because some people get bored easily. I do agree the learning skills were a bad call from the start though. |
Nexus Kinnon
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2009.02.06 11:24:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
I see you're still around bumping my thread to keep it on page one for more support! Thank you!
I'm staying active on here because I'm a voice of dissent.
Your idea is stupid and would severely cripple a feature of EVE plenty of people like and use.
I won't just sit here and ignore that.
I LOVE TRAINING SKILLS THAT DON'T LET ME FLY/DO ANYTHING NEW IT'S JUST SO EXCITING
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ResearchBunny Beatrix
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Posted - 2009.02.06 11:25:00 -
[130]
Edited by: ResearchBunny Beatrix on 06/02/2009 11:25:39 Learning skills had me within a hair of not playing after the first 10 days, they're a horrible, terrible mechanic when you're trying to get new people interested in EVE.
Give everyone 4/4 (basic & adv) learning skills at the start and call it a wash, let the bitter vets cry salty salty tears.
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Random Incarnate
Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2009.02.06 11:28:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Random Incarnate on 06/02/2009 11:28:34 From SHC:
Quote: Kill it. The learning skill tree is absolutely pointless as anything other than a near-mandatory skill link imposed during the first month or two of gameplay.
It's like not being allowed into a car dealership unless Blocky the Angry Bouncer punches you in the face first.
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2009.02.06 12:04:00 -
[132]
Normally I would offer to champion this issue but it was discussed in Iceland (off the agenda as part of our discussion regarding the skill queue) and it's already on the drawingboard and being looked at. Raising it as an issue at this time would be pointless as CCP are already discussing this and other options (including the other topic currently active in Assembly Hall) regarding the Learning skills. ----------------------
My Blog |
Crying Neemen
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Posted - 2009.02.06 12:21:00 -
[133]
Thats good news |
Takeshi Yamato
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Posted - 2009.02.06 12:28:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Takeshi Yamato on 06/02/2009 12:29:19 I fully support:
a) removal of learning skills. b) giving everyone +10 to all base attributes c) refunding each pilot an amount of skillpoints equal to what he/she had invested in learning skills.
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van Uber
SAE Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.06 12:33:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Efrim Black
Originally by: van Uber most of the things you mention will be mended this year.
Not true. Only the avatars. The interface will probably always be extreme, there will never be a way to grind exp, and as far as I know the Learning Curve is still pretty ridiculous.
So I don't know what you're talking about. This is more than just some random option, as I've said, it's part of a dichotemy that shouldn't be tampered with without a real solution. I've heard one or two promising compromises, the OP's suggestion however is not one, and thats the cause for my dissent.
I'd take it you don't read dev blogs and patch notes?
They have a team working on the GUI. They have for the last expansions enhanced the tutorial, introduced welcoming pages and other things to lessen the learning curve for new players. But I guess thats just as bad as removing other dull and stupid elements, such as learning skills.
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Zatharyn
IG Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.06 13:25:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Zatharyn on 06/02/2009 13:25:19 AS someone you manages 700+ Apps a month I can tell you only 30 of them people will remain in eve. My Brother & I have had a lot of experience with newbies & learning skills are one of the main reasons they quit the game. They need to go away. Give everyone +8 to there Chars & erase the Skills. |
Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.06 14:36:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Omber Zombie Normally I would offer to champion this issue but it was discussed in Iceland (off the agenda as part of our discussion regarding the skill queue) and it's already on the drawingboard and being looked at. Raising it as an issue at this time would be pointless as CCP are already discussing this and other options (including the other topic currently active in Assembly Hall) regarding the Learning skills.
This is good to know. Thank you OZ. Learning skills should never have been put into the game in the first place, but now that they are here, currently.. I think there should be some smooth way to withdraw them and streamline the new player experience a little better. The learning skills were the most unfun portion of the game, to me, back when I started. I brought three people into the game with me and we all used to complain about the learning skills when we were hanging out.
More noobs to the fire! They're all the same under my guns!
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.06 17:43:00 -
[138]
I think this game would be way better without them, to the point that if that meant losing the sps I had invested in them, then regardless I still think they should go. -- 249km locking? |
Kiotsu Adler
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Posted - 2009.02.06 17:50:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow
Originally by: Omber Zombie Normally I would offer to champion this issue but it was discussed in Iceland (off the agenda as part of our discussion regarding the skill queue) and it's already on the drawingboard and being looked at. Raising it as an issue at this time would be pointless as CCP are already discussing this and other options (including the other topic currently active in Assembly Hall) regarding the Learning skills.
This is good to know. Thank you OZ. Learning skills should never have been put into the game in the first place, but now that they are here, currently.. I think there should be some smooth way to withdraw them and streamline the new player experience a little better. The learning skills were the most unfun portion of the game, to me, back when I started. I brought three people into the game with me and we all used to complain about the learning skills when we were hanging out.
More noobs to the fire! They're all the same under my guns!
Totally agreed, and even if only for sympathy, I'll support this thread. Learning skills are horror as much as POS warfare and implementation of cap/supercaps, specially Titans. A big mistake.
p.s: i would even go agaisnt implants, but that's an other issue
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Sensor Boosting
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Posted - 2009.02.06 17:57:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Kiotsu Adler
Totally agreed, and even if only for sympathy, I'll support this thread. Learning skills are horror as much as POS warfare and implementation of cap/supercaps, specially Titans. A big mistake.
p.s: i would even go agaisnt implants, but that's an other issue
why dont you just give everyone every single skill to lvl 5 that way noobs will be able to anything!! yay for noobs doing anything within the first few days, seriously vets trained the learning skills, and we are still here..... only the lazy noobs leave the game bcos its "too hard"
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Reynolds
Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust
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Posted - 2009.02.06 19:25:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Tarminic Kill them with fire. I don't care that I'll lose SP. They are the biggest waste of time and a completely arbitrary timesink that discourages new players. New players should be discouraged by the fact that New Eden is a cold, harsh world, not because you have to spend a month essentially training nothing so you can be competitive.
Kill them with fire and then throw the ashes into the sun
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De'Veldrin
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Posted - 2009.02.06 19:58:00 -
[142]
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 06/02/2009 19:58:44 I look at the learning skills like modern day education.
I can choose to go out into the world with a high school diploma (or your equivalent) and get a crapppy job, or I can invest in the huge time and money sink of a University, and when I get done, get a much better job.
And like Eve, I don't have to do all the learning at once. I can go to a junior college for two years, and then go to work for a couple of years to get practical experience. Then I go back to school for another two years and get a four year degree, and then go back to work. Finally, I can get an advanced grraduate degree and then again, go back to work.
Eve is the same way. I can spend some time training my learning skills, then train the non-learning skills to gain experience, then go back for more learning skills.
Additionally, if you're working on Rank 1 or 2 skills at level 1, 2 or (maybe) 3, the difference between having a learning skill trained and not having them trained can be measured in minutes (if not seconds). So the idea that new characters need them is ludicrous to begin with. You won't need them until you're ready to start trainng rank 4 or 6 skills anyway.
It would be more effective to tell people to stop giving noobs bad advice on when they need to train these skills.
NOT SUPPORTED
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BalZaak Swinging
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Posted - 2009.02.06 20:08:00 -
[143]
There is a major flaw if CCP was to refund people training skill time.
If personA only trained learning skills for the first few weeks without training anything else, its clear how much they can be refunded
however, personB trains learning and other needed skills back and forth. His break even point is much farther out than personA. With rough numbers, it has been proven and shown that if two people both have lvl 4 in all learning skills one of those people then train the basic learnings to lvl 5, they both will reach the same ammount of sp in a few months time. The break even point for training the adv learning skills from 4 to 5 are a little over 2 years if i remembered correctly.
So long post short, if your seeing if eve is for you, you dont necessarily have to train the learning skills. One can just train the attributes they are seeking (gun and ship skills for example) to enhance their game play. However, if they know how much or how long they want to play, it would be a good investment to train in the learning skills.
What can not be seen is that if you do train the learning skills, in a few months time you will have more sp (minus the sp from learning skills) than if you didnt train them.
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GeneralNukeEm
Free Collective Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.02.06 20:18:00 -
[144]
Support |
Nhor Haen
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Posted - 2009.02.06 20:27:00 -
[145]
Great idea. The learning skill grind is a horrible thing that new players have to go through, and I'm sure it's resulted in a lot of people quitting (I know I nearly did, and I put it off as long as possible).
Nuke them entirely, or give everyone maxed learning skills, whatever. Just take them out of the game. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.06 20:52:00 -
[146]
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 06/02/2009 19:58:44 I look at the learning skills like modern day education.
I can choose to go out into the world with a high school diploma (or your equivalent) and get a crapppy job, or I can invest in the huge time and money sink of a University, and when I get done, get a much better job.
And like Eve, I don't have to do all the learning at once. I can go to a junior college for two years, and then go to work for a couple of years to get practical experience. Then I go back to school for another two years and get a four year degree, and then go back to work. Finally, I can get an advanced grraduate degree and then again, go back to work.
Eve is the same way. I can spend some time training my learning skills, then train the non-learning skills to gain experience, then go back for more learning skills.
Additionally, if you're working on Rank 1 or 2 skills at level 1, 2 or (maybe) 3, the difference between having a learning skill trained and not having them trained can be measured in minutes (if not seconds). So the idea that new characters need them is ludicrous to begin with. You won't need them until you're ready to start trainng rank 4 or 6 skills anyway.
It would be more effective to tell people to stop giving noobs bad advice on when they need to train these skills.
NOT SUPPORTED
Exactly this. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.06 21:11:00 -
[147]
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 06/02/2009 19:58:44 I look at the learning skills like modern day education.
I can choose to go out into the world with a high school diploma (or your equivalent) and get a crapppy job, or I can invest in the huge time and money sink of a University, and when I get done, get a much better job.
And like Eve, I don't have to do all the learning at once. I can go to a junior college for two years, and then go to work for a couple of years to get practical experience. Then I go back to school for another two years and get a four year degree, and then go back to work. Finally, I can get an advanced grraduate degree and then again, go back to work.
Eve is the same way. I can spend some time training my learning skills, then train the non-learning skills to gain experience, then go back for more learning skills.
Additionally, if you're working on Rank 1 or 2 skills at level 1, 2 or (maybe) 3, the difference between having a learning skill trained and not having them trained can be measured in minutes (if not seconds). So the idea that new characters need them is ludicrous to begin with. You won't need them until you're ready to start trainng rank 4 or 6 skills anyway.
It would be more effective to tell people to stop giving noobs bad advice on when they need to train these skills.
NOT SUPPORTED
This... big time.
But don't expect the OP to have the IQ To understand such things as rationality and discernment. It's like talking to concrete. |
Ankhesentapemkah
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Posted - 2009.02.06 21:15:00 -
[148]
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Thann Starlinbow
Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative
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Posted - 2009.02.06 21:41:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 06/02/2009 19:58:44 I look at the learning skills like modern day education.
I can choose to go out into the world with a high school diploma (or your equivalent) and get a crapppy job, or I can invest in the huge time and money sink of a University, and when I get done, get a much better job.
And like Eve, I don't have to do all the learning at once. I can go to a junior college for two years, and then go to work for a couple of years to get practical experience. Then I go back to school for another two years and get a four year degree, and then go back to work. Finally, I can get an advanced grraduate degree and then again, go back to work.
Eve is the same way. I can spend some time training my learning skills, then train the non-learning skills to gain experience, then go back for more learning skills.
Additionally, if you're working on Rank 1 or 2 skills at level 1, 2 or (maybe) 3, the difference between having a learning skill trained and not having them trained can be measured in minutes (if not seconds). So the idea that new characters need them is ludicrous to begin with. You won't need them until you're ready to start trainng rank 4 or 6 skills anyway.
It would be more effective to tell people to stop giving noobs bad advice on when they need to train these skills.
NOT SUPPORTED
Exactly this.
How cute. Another real-world analogy that doesn't apply to a game.
Also, keep insulting my intelligence, guys. It makes me laugh. |
De'Veldrin
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Posted - 2009.02.06 21:50:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Thann Starlinbow How cute. Another real-world analogy that doesn't apply to a game.
Also, keep insulting my intelligence, guys. It makes me laugh.[/quote
Then let me give you an example directly from the game.
I am currently training my way to Mining Barge 5. Eve Mon suggested I trained a slew of learning skills ahead of time and I went, like I expect most people do "Crap. I don't want to train those".
Then I started looking at the numbers.
Training those skills, which yes, took me a week or more, actually saved me ten days on the overall training plan - including the new learning skills. So not only did it pay for itself, it will continue to pay for itself as I train more advanced skills.
Is that related to the game closely enough for you?
--Vel |
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