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[Issue] Remove Learning skills from the game

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StarStryder Zero-Hour	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:28:00 - [181] I'm still inclined to support this but I agree that it may not be worth the development time involved. Certainly there's more important concerns.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.02.07 20:21:00 - [182] Originally by: Efrim Black Originally by: Thann Starlinbow You keep saying this like it means something because you're to stupid to actually think about what anyone else is saying. If they remove the Learning skills and boost attributes at the same time, then it's the same thing as not having to train those learning skills to 'train another skill faster and shave off time'. But keep repeating it, maybe you can convince people by repeating it over and over. Like Greme said earlier, the Learning skills are not a real choice. They're just something you lose out on, no matter which choice you make. It's like making a choice between getting punched in the nose or getting punched in the gut. Personally, I'd rather choose to eat ice cream. You're a Myopic imbecile. Removing the learning skills and simply boosting everyone's attributes is just as pointless as removing them and LOWERING everyone's attribute points. If all you want is a short, easier, game - perhaps you should go play something else. Whether you like it or not the skills and how they are trained are a choice. It's a choice between time-investment with the skills, and cash investment with implants. You can dress it up all you like, and say it's not a choice, but thats arguing semantics. Not reality. You're a fool, and trying to argue with me just shows all the little leaks in your Failboat. ITS OVER 9000!!!! (Pwn4g3) =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Thann Starlinbow Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:23:00 - [183] Originally by: Efrim Black Originally by: Thann Starlinbow You keep saying this like it means something because you're to stupid to actually think about what anyone else is saying. If they remove the Learning skills and boost attributes at the same time, then it's the same thing as not having to train those learning skills to 'train another skill faster and shave off time'. But keep repeating it, maybe you can convince people by repeating it over and over. Like Greme said earlier, the Learning skills are not a real choice. They're just something you lose out on, no matter which choice you make. It's like making a choice between getting punched in the nose or getting punched in the gut. Personally, I'd rather choose to eat ice cream. You're a Myopic imbecile. Removing the learning skills and simply boosting everyone's attributes is just as pointless as removing them and LOWERING everyone's attribute points. If all you want is a short, easier, game - perhaps you should go play something else. Whether you like it or not the skills and how they are trained are a choice. It's a choice between time-investment with the skills, and cash investment with implants. You can dress it up all you like, and say it's not a choice, but thats arguing semantics. Not reality. You're a fool, and trying to argue with me just shows all the little leaks in your Failboat. And you're an idiot. Look, you can keep tossing insults all you want and so can I. Training the learning skills may be a 'choice' but it's not a real one, as much as you keep trying to convince yourself of that. Why don't you go for some more ad hominem arguements, I hear they work real well in proving your point. Oh wait, no they don't.
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:40:00 - [184] Edited by: Efrim Black on 07/02/2009 21:40:45 Originally by: Thann Starlinbow And you're an idiot. Look, you can keep tossing insults all you want and so can I. Training the learning skills may be a 'choice' but it's not a real one, as much as you keep trying to convince yourself of that. Why don't you go for some more ad hominem arguements, I hear they work real well in proving your point. Oh wait, no they don't. It's funny you start throwing Latin at me, like some pseudo-intellectual dipstick. Even more ironic is you don't seem to know what that means. You're the one Arguing against the source without evidence. I produced a logical Dichotemy as to why the skills shouldn't be removed. You just ignored it. I point out it's a choice. You say it's not a 'real' choice. Your vapid empty rhetoric just makes you look like a bumbling fool. Also, for the record, you started the insults several pages ago, astonished that anyone could disagree with your poorly executed and poorly thought out suggestion. Removing skills and boosting attributes as you say would only leave the player with fewer options of how to develop their character, while simultaneosly crippling half of the attribute gain system. Leaving only Implants. I will not repeat this argument again for you. If you don't get it this time I'm going to chalk it up to inbreeding or a fault in your education.
Thann Starlinbow Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:57:00 - [185] Originally by: Efrim Black Edited by: Efrim Black on 07/02/2009 21:40:45 Originally by: Thann Starlinbow And you're an idiot. Look, you can keep tossing insults all you want and so can I. Training the learning skills may be a 'choice' but it's not a real one, as much as you keep trying to convince yourself of that. Why don't you go for some more ad hominem arguements, I hear they work real well in proving your point. Oh wait, no they don't. It's funny you start throwing Latin at me, like some pseudo-intellectual dipstick. Even more ironic is you don't seem to know what that means. You're the one Arguing against the source without evidence. I produced a logical Dichotemy as to why the skills shouldn't be removed. You just ignored it. Originally by: Wikipedia Ad hominem argument is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem as abusive, sexist, racist, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or attacking the person who proposed the argument (personal attack) in an attempt to discredit the argument. It is also used when an opponent is unable to find fault with an argument, yet for various reasons, the opponent disagrees with it. Try again, you failure. Originally by: Efrim Black I point out it's a choice. You say it's not a 'real' choice. Your vapid empty rhetoric just makes you look like a bumbling fool. Also, for the record, you started the insults several pages ago, astonished that anyone could disagree with your poorly executed and poorly thought out suggestion. It's not a real choice, as was pointed out to you several times, you just choose to ignore it. The 'choice' you so espouse is merely choosing one of two undesirable alternatives. Either 1. Train learning skills, which are widely acknowledged not to be fun or 2. Train slower than everyone else, thereby falling behind. That's not a choice. Originally by: Efrim Black Removing skills and boosting attributes as you say would only leave the player with fewer options of how to develop their character, while simultaneosly crippling half of the attribute gain system. Leaving only Implants. If player attributes were boosted when Learning skills were removed, it wouldn't matter. Or is that to complicated for you to understand? This statement is merely an extension of your previous "BUT IT'S REALLY A REAL CHOICE" arguement. Originally by: Efrim Black I will not repeat this argument again for you. If you don't get it this time I'm going to chalk it up to inbreeding or a fault in your education. Oh look, more ad hominem attacks. How cute.
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:13:00 - [186] Originally by: Efrim Black You're the one Arguing against the source without evidence. I produced a logical Dichotemy as to why the skills shouldn't be removed. You just ignored it. Yeah I had to quote myself since your wall of text did exactly what I said you'd do. You ignore the core of my argument. Also - you began in the insults, hence the irony in your little ad hominem BS. Again - the skills give you an option of HOW to develop your character's attributes = A CHOICE. Boosting all attributes removes the choice. How long do you want this to go on? I can do this all year.
Thann Starlinbow Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:18:00 - [187] Originally by: Efrim Black Originally by: Efrim Black You're the one Arguing against the source without evidence. I produced a logical Dichotemy as to why the skills shouldn't be removed. You just ignored it. Yeah I had to quote myself since your wall of text did exactly what I said you'd do. You ignore the core of my argument. Also - you began in the insults, hence the irony in your little ad hominem BS. Again - the skills give you an option of HOW to develop your character's attributes = A CHOICE. Boosting all attributes removes the choice. How long do you want this to go on? I can do this all year. Hey, so can I. It's not a real choice. It's a choice from two bad options. Want to repeat how it's a choice again?
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:24:00 - [188] Originally by: Thann Starlinbow [ Hey, so can I. It's not a real choice. It's a choice from two bad options. Want to repeat how it's a choice again? Here is the page where I made the argument the first time. I won't repeat myself just because you have trouble making sense of it.
Thann Starlinbow Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:28:00 - [189] Originally by: Efrim Black Originally by: Thann Starlinbow [ Hey, so can I. It's not a real choice. It's a choice from two bad options. Want to repeat how it's a choice again? Here is the page where I made the argument the first time. I won't repeat myself just because you have trouble making sense of it. It's because your arguement has no merit. vOv Choice from two bad options is not a real choice.
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:29:00 - [190] Originally by: Thann Starlinbow Originally by: Efrim Black Originally by: Thann Starlinbow [ Hey, so can I. It's not a real choice. It's a choice from two bad options. Want to repeat how it's a choice again? Here is the page where I made the argument the first time. I won't repeat myself just because you have trouble making sense of it. It's because your arguement has no merit. vOv Choice from two bad options is not a real choice. What makes those options bad is subjective - and not everyone agrees they are bad options. Oh and by the way - bad options don't nullify the choice.

Thann Starlinbow Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:31:00 - [191] Originally by: Efrim Black Originally by: Thann Starlinbow Originally by: Efrim Black Originally by: Thann Starlinbow [ Hey, so can I. It's not a real choice. It's a choice from two bad options. Want to repeat how it's a choice again? Here is the page where I made the argument the first time. I won't repeat myself just because you have trouble making sense of it. It's because your arguement has no merit. vOv Choice from two bad options is not a real choice. What makes those options bad is subjective - and not everyone agrees they are bad options. Oh and by the way - bad options don't nullify the choice. They don't nullify the choice, they just make it a BAD one. And the majority of players in this game all hated having to train the Learning skills.
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:32:00 - [192] Originally by: Thann Starlinbow And the majority of players in this game all hated having to train the Learning skills. Bull. ****. You're pulling that out of your rear because you got a few supports.
Thann Starlinbow Minmatar Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:40:00 - [193] Originally by: Efrim Black Originally by: Thann Starlinbow And the majority of players in this game all hated having to train the Learning skills. Bull. ****. You're pulling that out of your rear because you got a few supports. Actually, personal anecdotes. I've never talked to anyone.. and I've been playing this game for three years now.. who has liked training the Learning skills. But that's kind of why I started this thread.. to see how many people think the same way. S'ok though, CCP are already working on this issue. vOv
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.02.07 22:56:00 - [194] Edited by: Efrim Black on 07/02/2009 23:03:48 Originally by: Thann Starlinbow Actually, personal anecdotes. I've never talked to anyone.. and I've been playing this game for three years now.. who has liked training the Learning skills. But that's kind of why I started this thread.. to see how many people think the same way. S'ok though, CCP are already working on this issue. vOv Cool story brah. Don't care at all. I've been around quite awhile and I've had the opposite experience. The only people who didn't appreciate the Learning skills, didn't even have the patience to get into Battlecruisers. And in any case, this board is about matters for the CSM. I don't care what CCP says it's doing. I will argue against this issue and vote against any CSM rep who supports it.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.02.07 23:55:00 - [195] Originally by: Efrim Black I will argue against this issue and vote against any CSM rep who supports it. Same. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Veneratio Venator Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.08 02:28:00 - [196] One thing that hasnt been addressed this whole time is why boost the attributes, i'm going to keep harping on this one until someone actually gives an answer. I've seen reasons on both sides in regards to removing the learning skills (which i dont support) but not a single one why to boost attributes once they're gone. So why, if you want them removed so badly don't you just ask for them to be removed and be done with it?
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.02.08 02:49:00 - [197] Originally by: Nnamuachs One thing that hasnt been addressed this whole time is why boost the attributes, i'm going to keep harping on this one until someone actually gives an answer. I've seen reasons on both sides in regards to removing the learning skills (which i dont support) but not a single one why to boost attributes once they're gone. So why, if you want them removed so badly don't you just ask for them to be removed and be done with it? They want the attributes boosted to basically take the effect of all learning skills lvl 5. i.e. They want no options to expand your attributes other than implants. By boosting everyones attributes, everyone would train even faster. I see why a lot of these people want the skills removed, I just don't agree with it, and I think it would take away part of the game thats very necessary.
Mysttina	Posted - 2009.02.08 07:42:00 - [198] Fully supported.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.02.08 08:16:00 - [199] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 08/02/2009 08:19:37 Isn't it funny how the OP can't resist responding to every post? Guess he has inferiority complex issues. Oh and Mr. OP... learn to read an encyclopedia... or a dictionary. No Wikipedia doesn't count.... especially if it can be edited by anyone and everyone. It's sure as hell no authority... =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Takeshi Yamato	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:24:00 - [200] A decent middle ground would be removing the advanced learning skills and refunding the sp invested in them and increasing all base attributes by 5. With this the learning tab would be maxed out with 1536000 sp instead of the ~5mil it currently is. A new player would have to spend only about a week to get nearly the same attributes that a player with V basic and IV advanced skills has now. That said I still don't see the point of having learning skills at all.

Euriti Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.08 11:41:00 - [201] Supporting this. It's a needless timesink putting off new players.
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.08 12:43:00 - [202] Originally by: Euriti Supporting this. It's a needless timesink putting off new players. it isnt needless, it only puts off players who are too impatient. too all the people saying "training learning skills is not fun" do you think training skills to lvl 5 is fun? no-one forces you to train the learning skills! if you dont want to train them, then dont, you just want and easy game....
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.02.08 14:35:00 - [203] Originally by: Sensor Boosting it isnt needless, it only puts off players who are too impatient. too all the people saying "training learning skills is not fun" do you think training skills to lvl 5 is fun? no-one forces you to train the learning skills! if you dont want to train them, then dont, you just want and easy game.... If they win this little whine-fest the level 5's will be next target of an "improved skill training" thread. "Make level 5 skills faster to train! They take too long! It discourages new players and makes them quit! We should have level 5 skills NOW!" Still not supporting (obviously)
Clementina Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.02.08 17:34:00 - [204] I am going to support this.
Onnen Mentar Murientor Tribe	Posted - 2009.02.08 23:41:00 - [205] I fully support this. Learning skills take loads of fun out of EVE for new players.
Nefteus Caldari Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.02.09 12:12:00 - [206] Yeah sure, why not give everything to everyone for free right now. Like someone rightly remarked: next the lvl 5s, then anything over rank 8, so best do everything in one go right now. No more waiting for skills to finish, only "fun" left. No postponed rewards, just instant gratification. Very bad idea imo. Not supported. "IF POSSIBLE, vets should have the skillpoints refunded and allow them to place it wherever they want. If that is to technically complicated, then just remove them." Thann thanks for completely disregarding the months I put in training them. Ofcourse vets wont be upset if you just take 5mil SP away, and give advantage to people who did not have the patience and long-term planning to train them.


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