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2Sonas1Cup
73
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Posted - 2015.04.27 08:40:21 -
[1] - Quote
Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. |
SilentAsTheGrave
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
208
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Posted - 2015.04.27 08:47:37 -
[2] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. Your grammar is a bigger problem than Incursions.
Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!
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2Sonas1Cup
73
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Posted - 2015.04.27 08:51:24 -
[3] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. Your grammar is a bigger problem than Incursions.
Yea but you understand what Im saying right?
It is really nonsensical how much highsec incursions pay. It kills eve. |
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra Gallente Federation
324
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Posted - 2015.04.27 08:58:09 -
[4] - Quote
If you don't like them don't run them, find something harder to do. Maybe go try to run them in null or low sec. Why should they change it because you don't like getting paid as much as you do in hisec when there are a bunch of others who like it just fine.
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
418
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Posted - 2015.04.27 09:03:57 -
[5] - Quote
considering they not long ago pretty much buffed them...
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Tuttomenui II
Aliastra Gallente Federation
324
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Posted - 2015.04.27 09:10:59 -
[6] - Quote
I haven't got around to running any yet. But Since they require a fleet to really get a good reward I would say that is more important. And justifies the reward. If you could go solo and get the same reward then it would definitely be over kill. |
2Sonas1Cup
74
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Posted - 2015.04.27 09:27:56 -
[7] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:considering they not long ago pretty much buffed them... but yeah they do pay too much for the risk involved
If they were a temporary thing, as they should (sanshas invasion), ok after we deal with them, its done/ dealt with.
But they stayed, and its been killing a major part of the game slowly but surely. It was good when they started, but have them as a regular thing is just terrible.
CCP could have incursions as an event, every now and then sanshas try to invade highsec for like a month or so, then they stop for 3 or 4 months.
Or just lower their payouts to a balanced level as I said in the first post, instead of 250mil per hour, have them at around 100mil per hour.
And have VGs, assaults and HQs pay all the same. There is no need to have HQs paying more than VGs IMO (but thats a different story) could also boost scouts and give people an incentive to do them. |
Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2015.04.27 09:40:38 -
[8] - Quote
Please, make others' enterprise less profitable, or at least make mine more so! It's only fair! Though, I don't do anything remotely like these other people, and never go where they are, the very thought that they're there making ISK just bugs me. So, CCP, take your million dollar machine and turn it toward my inclinations and personal preferences. You know the Great Gaming God is on my side!
I survived Win95
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Arla Sarain
387
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Posted - 2015.04.27 09:44:49 -
[9] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Please, make others' enterprise less profitable, or at least make mine more so! It's only fair! Though, I don't do anything remotely like these other people, and never go where they are, the very thought that they're there making ISK just bugs me. So, CCP, take your million dollar machine and turn it toward my inclinations and personal preferences. You know the Great Gaming God is on my side! Why do you sound so intimidated?
Is someone looking at your cash cow funny? |
Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2015.04.27 09:47:08 -
[10] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Please, make others' enterprise less profitable, or at least make mine more so! It's only fair! Though, I don't do anything remotely like these other people, and never go where they are, the very thought that they're there making ISK just bugs me. So, CCP, take your million dollar machine and turn it toward my inclinations and personal preferences. You know the Great Gaming God is on my side! Why do you sound so intimidated? Is someone looking at your cash cow funny? You won't make much of a psychic. I do hope your education is along some other line, but that is a nice attempt at mind reading. I think "contempt" is the word you're searching for, not "intimidated." You'd have to explain what a "cash cow" is, since you seem so well-versed. For me, I have no idea.
In case you missed the point entirely: "Make EVE the way I want it."
Get in line.
I survived Win95
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
418
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Posted - 2015.04.27 09:49:55 -
[11] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Please, make others' enterprise less profitable, or at least make mine more so! It's only fair! Though, I don't do anything remotely like these other people, and never go where they are, the very thought that they're there making ISK just bugs me. So, CCP, take your million dollar machine and turn it toward my inclinations and personal preferences. You know the Great Gaming God is on my side!
no its the fact that they are making the most amount of isk while undocked in the game with practically 0 risk. on a system based on risk vs reward its totally not within that system
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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2Sonas1Cup
75
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Posted - 2015.04.27 09:50:24 -
[12] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Please, make others' enterprise less profitable, or at least make mine more so! It's only fair! Though, I don't do anything remotely like these other people, and never go where they are, the very thought that they're there making ISK just bugs me. So, CCP, take your million dollar machine and turn it toward my inclinations and personal preferences. You know the Great Gaming God is on my side!
I dont what?
I run incursions since 2011 when they came out mr. With 2 or 3 accounts, lately only 2 or 1 depends.
I know every single thing about incursions and how bad they truly are. (in terms of how much they destroy the real eve)
Im only here to expose them because Im tired of this "eve" of today and miss the old one, the one without incursions. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21842
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Posted - 2015.04.27 09:50:32 -
[13] - Quote
Tuttomenui II wrote:I haven't got around to running any yet. But Since they require a fleet to really get a good reward I would say that is more important. And justifies the reward. If you could go solo and get the same reward then it would definitely be over kill. A fleet as requirement is nothing that balances something out. Besides, there is no shortage of greedy people.
I don't care about the income, but I care about the lack of risk.
At least my momentarily perceived lack of risk.
What kind of risk is there involved anyway?
It's definitely not hard enough, so that one doesn't count. It's too predictable to be dangerous.
The highest risk seems to be that people CONCORD themselves, which doesn't count either, because that has nothing to do with the NPCs.
ECMing logi? Nope. Smartbombing them? Nope, server bugs it out. Lowsec? Nope, people are cowards.
So ... what are incursions, besides easy money making?
What content do they provide for anyone but those who run them?
Does anyone remember that these are mostly run by carebears? Does anyone remember how people whined when their mom got popped, (lol) calling people griefers for ending an everlasting way t o squeeze money out of it?
Please... provide answers. I'm curious.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
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Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2015.04.27 09:51:59 -
[14] - Quote
Ever hear the saying, "Mind your own business?" Or, in this world of the Duly Entitled, are you queen?
I survived Win95
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 09:54:41 -
[15] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Ever hear the saying, "Mind your own business?" Or, in this world of the Duly Entitled, are you queen?
Oh. Incursions are content created by CCP. It is their game after all. I guess they can create content, too, if they WANT to.
This thread looks like it's caught a lot of folks that don't have enough to do. Address what is being written, carebear.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
418
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 09:56:08 -
[16] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Ever hear the saying, "Mind your own business?" Or, in this world of the Duly Entitled, are you queen?
Oh. Incursions are content created by CCP. It is their game after all. I guess they can create content, too, if they WANT to.
This thread looks like it's caught a lot of folks that don't have enough to do.
you sound very bitter whats the crack?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15673
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Posted - 2015.04.27 10:04:56 -
[17] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Ever hear the saying, "Mind your own business?" Or, in this world of the Duly Entitled, are you queen?
Oh. Incursions are content created by CCP. It is their game after all. I guess they can create content, too, if they WANT to.
This thread looks like it's caught a lot of folks that don't have enough to do. you sound very bitter whats the crack?
As was said, he doesn't want to lose the cash cow.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 10:08:22 -
[18] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Ever hear the saying, "Mind your own business?" Or, in this world of the Duly Entitled, are you queen?
Oh. Incursions are content created by CCP. It is their game after all. I guess they can create content, too, if they WANT to.
This thread looks like it's caught a lot of folks that don't have enough to do. you sound very bitter whats the crack? As was said, he doesn't want to lose the cash cow. I wouldn't mind the income if there was any actual risk involved getting it.
Still waiting for a response to what risk there actually is.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
917
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 10:08:38 -
[19] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Ever hear the saying, "Mind your own business?" Or, in this world of the Duly Entitled, are you queen?
Oh. Incursions are content created by CCP. It is their game after all. I guess they can create content, too, if they WANT to.
This thread looks like it's caught a lot of folks that don't have enough to do. No, there is a very real argument that a risk-free ISK fountain like Incurions is bad for the game. Only CCP has all the numbers, but if players are choosing to make their ISK in complete safety in highsec instead of in more dangerous spaces, you are asphyxiating PvP opportunities and conflict elsewhere in the game.
Again I don't have access to the numbers, but isn't it true that practically everyone you talk to has an "Incurion alt" for making ISK even if they consider themselves a wormholer or a nullsec player? If so, that is terrible for the game in the long run as there will be less and less targets outside of highsec and all that will be left is meaningless roams where players look for similar players for consensual fights to burn off their Incursion income. If players aren't actually fighting over resources, these inconsequential and random fights will get old quick and the game will stagnate. Sound familiar?
CCP is going to have to turn the ship around soon and part of that will be a major effort to draw players back into more dangerous places like null/low/WH space to fight over income sources, and perhaps this new Jove space in the future. Perhaps they can do it with new and engaging game mechanics and rewards, but I fully expect them to have to dial back Incursion income at least a little to motivate players to leave highsec again.
There is a place for PvE that is cooperative and PvP-free in Eve. It is just not as the most lucrative way to make ISK in the game.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
841
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 10:13:13 -
[20] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.
I don't run incursions, but I have no issues with other players enjoying them, if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you!
Ella's Snack bar
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21842
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Posted - 2015.04.27 10:13:58 -
[21] - Quote
Pedro ... no offense ... but it feels like you overshot that one a bit...
Btw ...
I am Sol ... ... and I don't have an incursion alt. :p
Mostly because it would be of no use and only provide me with money ... ... and unlike most people I wojld be ashamed of myself of needing a 100% guaranteed way to make it.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
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Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 10:15:12 -
[22] - Quote
This is all what you people who have a bug up your collective butts are saying. Anything you do in EVE if you do it "correctly" has zero to no risk. The very same people claiming risk has to be there, are in other places advising people you can get rid of risk "in certain cases." The sum total of all the advice over time includes all cases eventually.
Now, we've found another place to Chicken Little about. Risk free incursions in high sec. Yeah, maybe. It depends on how you do them, in what and with whom, as in all things EVE. I so wish I could be persuaded by this heartfelt, newly hatched campaign to change someone else's game, 'cause it just isn't "right" (in a game of no rules...with rules.) However, all I see here is an arbitrary selection of something, described and defined in arbitrary language that doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
I somehow think if all the complainers turned their attention to the perfectly balanced way they prefer to play, all this ado about nothing would fade back into the insignificance it rightfully has held for all this time...till now. Then, maybe we should start a program to pay some people not to think.
There is no there there...er, here.
I survived Win95
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
420
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 10:16:04 -
[23] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. I don't run incursions, but I have no issues with other players enjoying them, if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you!
you know most incursion groups tell you not to bother joining if you are wardecced, your argument is pretty invalid, incursion groups are aware of how to avoid the little risk involved.
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 10:19:30 -
[24] - Quote
Bullshit.
There is always a risk involved when other players can interfere successfully.
There is no way to ruin the day for incursioneers, though.
You are a carebear. A griefer and coward. Hiding behind an alt that's only made for ISK making. You only care about your ******* wallet.
Post with your main! Show me you have at least tiny balls!
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
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Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 10:23:05 -
[25] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Bullshit.
There is always a risk involved when other players can interfere successfully.
There is no way to ruin the day for incursioneers, though.
You are a carebear. A griefer and coward. Hiding behind an alt that's only made for ISK making. You only care about your ******* wallet.
Post with your main! Show me you have at least tiny balls!
Just because you say all this, it's true? Hardly. It's "truism". (I'll ignore your lack of manners.)
I survived Win95
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
841
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Posted - 2015.04.27 10:32:30 -
[26] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. I don't run incursions, but I have no issues with other players enjoying them, if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you! you know most incursion groups tell you not to bother joining if you are wardecced, your argument is pretty invalid, incursion groups are aware of how to avoid the little risk involved.
So what there are still ways to attack them...
Ella's Snack bar
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 10:34:11 -
[27] - Quote
Go dec them and see what happens.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Aladar Dangerface
Zebra Corp The Bastion
154
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 10:39:46 -
[28] - Quote
Glad i brought my popcorn to work today. nom nom
I don't need twitter.
I'm already following you.
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Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2015.04.27 10:49:16 -
[29] - Quote
Oh were this slightly entertaining, I'd participate more fully. Alas, the risk/benefit equation forbids. *wanders off seeking a roll of duct tape - to tape the arms back on his Carebear-«*
I survived Win95
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
311
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Posted - 2015.04.27 10:58:44 -
[30] - Quote
If I remember correctly it was said, the most liquid income for individual players comes from nullsec ratting ... I don't think Incursions are a big issue, especially as there is a limited supply of them in highsec.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Hicksimus
Xion Limited Resonance.
590
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Posted - 2015.04.27 10:59:24 -
[31] - Quote
This coming from the OP that was just sitting in a system cloaked while I ratted before realizing his AFK cloak technique wasn't bothering me so he left.....yeah, big risk taker he is.
Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you?
Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
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Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
1641
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:02:11 -
[32] - Quote
Yesterday we barely hit 40.000 players online (for a few minutes), last thing CCP is going to do is ever so slightly p*ss people off to have even less people online.
On top of that (your OP sounds like a whiny with tears filled one) if you don't like Incursions, *do* something about it (n game). It's a sandbox, kick over their castle or are you to cowardly for that? |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21881
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:03:21 -
[33] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Oh were this slightly entertaining, I'd participate more fully. Alas, the risk/benefit equation forbids. *wanders off seeking a roll of duct tape - to tape the arms back on his Carebear-«* No balls whatsoever.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Sykaotic
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
35
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Posted - 2015.04.27 11:03:40 -
[34] - Quote
I don't care one way or another.
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
420
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Posted - 2015.04.27 11:05:54 -
[35] - Quote
Pak Narhoo wrote:Yesterday we barely hit 40.000 players online (for a few minutes), last thing CCP is going to do is ever so slightly p*ss people off to have even less people online. On top of that (your OP sounds like a whiny with tears filled one) if you don't like Incursions, *do* something about it (n game). It's a sandbox, kick over their castle or are you to cowardly for that?
that doesnt make sense are you implying ccp is scared of its players and that balances should be based on not ******* other players off?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21884
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:07:42 -
[36] - Quote
Pak Narhoo wrote:Yesterday we barely hit 40.000 players online (for a few minutes), last thing CCP is going to do is ever so slightly p*ss people off to have even less people online. On top of that (your OP sounds like a whiny with tears filled one) if you don't like Incursions, *do* something about it (n game). It's a sandbox, kick over their castle or are you to cowardly for that? Yeah now do tell how, too, genius. Because if there was something people would obviously do it!
So?
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:09:26 -
[37] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Oh were this slightly entertaining, I'd participate more fully. Alas, the risk/benefit equation forbids. *wanders off seeking a roll of duct tape - to tape the arms back on his Carebear-«* No balls whatsoever. It's enlightening input such as this that warms my heart toward you. Such expertise....on something.
I survived Win95
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FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
66
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Posted - 2015.04.27 11:11:42 -
[38] - Quote
Please lets get real...
i've done incursions for years, fced HQs, Assaults and Vgs - multiboxed vgs - assaults ( with and without isboxer)..
There is no easier way to collect isk then incursions, the risk is minimal as it has all been documented and writen down to a science. You generate alot of isk in a few hundred pilots wallets through 24/7 highsec grinding with 39 equal minded pilots (HQ)
However, incursions do generate content and "fun" factor as most communities build around this content are open for everyone, you can hop on talk about random things - shoot red crosses etc... While not dedicating yourself and your gametime to said community - you go and leave when you want.
Incursions have great things, and horrible things.. the total isk injected into economy is even worse. BUT we all do it, because its easy. I'd rath spend 10hrs (1 long day =2.5bil) doing incursions then 20-30 or more hrs something else for the same ships i can get blown up in pvp.
tl'dr? or just didn't care, well here's some math:
play 1hr : 200mil isk play 3hr: 600 mil isk
!! 3hrs x 5 days x 4 weeks : 12bil isk made in highsec per month, so if you play a few hrs after work/ after kids are in bed your 1 account has over 11bil extra after plex costs.
> weekend warrior? 3hrs 4 days : 2.4bil in 4 saturdays or sundays
compare the hrs played vs low/null/wh on an individual wallet income ( just 1 account) , and make it scale with 40 people earning the same isk. AND once an incursion is up, the sansha gods just keep on giving and you can farm them continuesly.
Farm them while you can, but lets not drop to ****** levels and say that incursions are hard or risky
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21884
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:13:48 -
[39] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Oh were this slightly entertaining, I'd participate more fully. Alas, the risk/benefit equation forbids. *wanders off seeking a roll of duct tape - to tape the arms back on his Carebear-«* No balls whatsoever. It's enlightening input such as this that warms my heart toward you. Such expertise....on something. I asked questions. You not only provided no answers, you also hide like the griefing forum big.outh you are.
You can delusionally feel like a bigman all you want ... ... you show you have no balls. None. Zero.
Post with your main. Address what is being asked.
Try it, carebear.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21884
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:15:38 -
[40] - Quote
FunGu Arsten wrote:Please lets get real... i've done incursions for years, fced HQs, Assaults and Vgs - multiboxed vgs - assaults ( with and without isboxer)..
There is no easier way to collect isk then incursions, the risk is minimal as it has all been documented and writen down to a science. You generate alot of isk in a few hundred pilots wallets through 24/7 highsec grinding with 39 equal minded pilots (HQ)
However, incursions do generate content and "fun" factor as most communities build around this content are open for everyone, you can hop on talk about random things - shoot red crosses etc... While not dedicating yourself and your gametime to said community - you go and leave when you want.
Incursions have great things, and horrible things.. the total isk injected into economy is even worse. BUT we all do it, because its easy. I'd rath spend 10hrs (1 long day =2.5bil) doing incursions then 20-30 or more hrs something else for the same ships i can get blown up in pvp.
tl'dr? or just didn't care, well here's some math:
play 1hr : 200mil isk play 3hr: 600 mil isk
!! 3hrs x 5 days x 4 weeks : 12bil isk made in highsec per month, so if you play a few hrs after work/ after kids are in bed your 1 account has over 11bil extra after plex costs.
> weekend warrior? 3hrs 4 days : 2.4bil in 4 saturdays or sundays
compare the hrs played vs low/null/wh on an individual wallet income ( just 1 account) , and make it scale with 40 people earning the same isk. AND once an incursion is up, the sansha gods just keep on giving and you can farm them continuesly.
Farm them while you can, but lets not drop to ****** levels and say that incursions are hard or risky Unlike the griefers you at least are honest about it.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
|
Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:15:52 -
[41] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Oh were this slightly entertaining, I'd participate more fully. Alas, the risk/benefit equation forbids. *wanders off seeking a roll of duct tape - to tape the arms back on his Carebear-«* No balls whatsoever. It's enlightening input such as this that warms my heart toward you. Such expertise....on something. I asked questions. You not only provided no answers, you also hide like the griefing forum big.outh you are. You can delusionally feel like a bigman all you want ... ... you show you have no balls. None. Zero. Post with your main. Address what is being asked. Try it, carebear. Oh, wait. That illiterate outburst of inanity made sense? To whom? Questions? WHERE??? How the hell does it concern you what toon anyone posts with? And, who the hell are you to say this isn't my main??? I can't help it if I sold my TOONS. You want me to give you the ISK I made there to make you feel better?
Poor dear.
I survived Win95
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21884
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:16:52 -
[42] - Quote
You are still dodging my questions from the first page, griefer.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
2Sonas1Cup
77
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:20:15 -
[43] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. I don't run incursions, but I have no issues with other players enjoying them, if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you! you know most incursion groups tell you not to bother joining if you are wardecced, your argument is pretty invalid, incursion groups are aware of how to avoid the little risk involved. So what there are still ways to attack them...
Please enlighten us with your ways.
Or more like, fail ways.
When incursions started there were a lot of mechanics to explore people werent aware of, many fleets used to lose ships every now and then through some of these mechanics. But now its all said and done 90% of the risk is gone with very well known protective measures. Theres literally nothing that you can do about incursioners other than your regular gate ganking in between stages when people travel, even though you need a lot of planning, effort and pilots just to kill a single tanked battleship if all goes well.
Even goons fail to stop incursioners, unless its a random afk guy off a station not in fleet or something.
You know something is wrong when null players have highsec incursions alts to make isks for their null pvp activities. Is that really the eve you want to play?
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21884
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:20:37 -
[44] - Quote
Anyhow... thanks for confirming once more that carebears are ...
... cowards. ... bigmouths with nothing behind. ... incapable of actually addressing anything directly. ... only ever care about themselves.
Otso Bakarti ... the lowest of the low.
Thanks!
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21884
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:22:19 -
[45] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. I don't run incursions, but I have no issues with other players enjoying them, if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you! you know most incursion groups tell you not to bother joining if you are wardecced, your argument is pretty invalid, incursion groups are aware of how to avoid the little risk involved. So what there are still ways to attack them... Please enlighten us with your ways. Or more like, fail ways. When incursions started there were a lot of mechanics to explore people werent aware of, many fleets used to lose ships every now and then through some of these mechanics. But now its all said and done 90% of the risk is gone with very well known protective measures. Theres literally nothing that you can do about incursioners other than your regular gate ganking in between stages when people travel, even though you need a lot of planning, effort and pilots just to kill a single tanked battleship if all goes well. Even goons fail to stop incursioners, unless its a random afk guy off a station not in fleet or something. You know something is wrong when null players have highsec incursions alts to make isks for their null pvp activities. Is that really the eve you want to play? CFP even removed GCC chaining, which was perfectly fine before but the scum of the cluster whined until they removed it.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
67
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:25:29 -
[46] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Anyhow... thanks for confirming once more that carebears are ...
... cowards. ... bigmouths with nothing behind. ... incapable of actually addressing anything directly. ... only ever care about themselves.
Otso Bakarti ... the lowest of the low.
Thanks!
Though agreeing with incursions are easy, dont be so shortsighted to say that only carebears do incursions.. i know plenty of pvpers and wh-ers that do incursions for the quick isk injections.
I'd also like to point out that waving a stick and trying to hit people for doing a particular "thing" in the game is just sad on your part. There's no need to insult people or put people into a box. All they're doing is playing the game ccp is providing.
IF you want to adress the horrible isk injection it can be done without poking the fatbellies that hop on their alt to farm sansha gold.... |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:28:38 -
[47] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. I don't run incursions, but I have no issues with other players enjoying them, if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you! you know most incursion groups tell you not to bother joining if you are wardecced, your argument is pretty invalid, incursion groups are aware of how to avoid the little risk involved. So what there are still ways to attack them... Please enlighten us with your ways. Or more like, fail ways. When incursions started there were a lot of mechanics to explore people werent aware of, many fleets used to lose ships every now and then through some of these mechanics. But now its all said and done 90% of the risk is gone with very well known protective measures. Theres literally nothing that you can do about incursioners other than your regular gate ganking in between stages when people travel, even though you need a lot of planning, effort and pilots just to kill a single tanked battleship if all goes well. Even goons fail to stop incursioners, unless its a random afk guy off a station not in fleet or something. You know something is wrong when null players have highsec incursions alts to make isks for their null pvp activities. Is that really the eve you want to play?
Look what you just said there, it requires effort, planning, teamwork and risk. The Goons do kill Incursion runners at times, just organise your group of gankers and get too it. There is a lot of stuff in Eve that I cannot do because I am unable to gather / organise enough people, I don't whine about it, I just get on and have fun, perhaps that is what you should do rather than whine about other peoples game play because you are unable to organise yourself to make a dent in them.
I don't care if null players have hisec incursion running alts, big deal, if you have ever been in a 0.0 alliance you will soon realise that having different income streams is really important, good luck to them, means they are more able to fight in 0.0.
You have an objective, go kill an incursion runner in a very shiny ship its doable.
Ella's Snack bar
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21884
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:31:49 -
[48] - Quote
FunGu Arsten wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Anyhow... thanks for confirming once more that carebears are ...
... cowards. ... bigmouths with nothing behind. ... incapable of actually addressing anything directly. ... only ever care about themselves.
Otso Bakarti ... the lowest of the low.
Thanks! Though agreeing with incursions are easy, dont be so shortsighted to say that only carebears do incursions.. i know plenty of pvpers and wh-ers that do incursions for the quick isk injections. I'd also like to point out that waving a stick and trying to hit people for doing a particular "thing" in the game is just sad on your part. There's no need to insult people or put people into a box. All they're doing is playing the game ccp is providing. IF you want to adress the horrible isk injection it can be done without poking the fatbellies that hop on their alt to farm sansha gold.... The ISK is nothng I care about. It's the constant whining about risk, people who shoot them, deliberate ignorance, wannabegood person attitude, wishing ill and death onto others, hell ... list is long!
Incursions would be fine if it wasn't for the smug griefers who have no balls whatsoever and keep holding CCP hostage.
Because without the lowest of the low incursions could be a thing that wasn't isolated from people who want to interfere, as the game usually allows people to!
And if you believe people can interfere successfully, then please tell us how to do so!
If there was anything that could be done, people would do it!
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:36:16 -
[49] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:You are still dodging my questions from the first page, griefer. I do not acknowledge your standing to interrogate anyone. And, I see you're happily and single-handedly championing this cause. I'll say this. If ego is the first cause, you win. Unfortunately, your bluster doesn't serve.
Regardless of what this person says, there is still no there there. This is beginning to smack of conspiracy, however.
I survived Win95
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10798
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:39:31 -
[50] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.
While I recognize the imbalance Incursions contribute to, I don't think it's realistic for ccp to get rid of them. Hell, incursions are a cool concept, just badly implemented. I've been taking a semi-break from null due to real life obligations and running incursions with TVP for 2 weeks.
Say that their is little incentive to do anything else is actually wrong, I sold my incursion fit (kept the Mach though) because incursions are so eye bleedingly boring and monotonous I simply can't run another site, even when you contribute by having a roll (I have played sniper anchor and MTAC guy), it's the SAME THING over and over and over again. null anoms are the same, but atleast I can experiment with different ships, come and go when I want and the guys trying to kill you make for interesting times. You get almost none of that in high sec incursions, the only fun to be had is contests and those are rare.
The isk is great, at time we've been on pace to make more than 160 mil per hour (and TVP is great with it's automated waitlist meaning that if you have alts like me, you can do something else in the time it takes you to get invited, they even have an out of game browser alarm that blares at you when you get invited, best thing I've ever seen)
I'm on the record saying that high sec incursions are wrong and bad and they are. I find it irksome that the SAME Machariel that can be used by me to help push a 100+ mil per hour pace farming in an incursion fleet (where only the FC is doing any actual thinking/playing) can make AT BEST 750-75 mil per hour farming anomalies in a null sec system that someone had to fight over, conquer and than pay to upgrade including moving a huge ass IHUB.
And all of that is still true, I simply don't think people should be making that much combat pve isk in high sec, it cheapens ALL pve outside of high sec with the exception of high end wormholes (which are sill balanced because once those WH anoms are gone, they are gone, incursion sites keep respawning till the incursion is gone)
But what is also true is that if you re-nerf incursions (they got nerfed in the past), people just won't do them and it's wasted content/dev time. It's a hell of a wall CCP painted themselves into, damned if you do, damnded if you don't. Personally I'd leave incursions alone with the possible exception of lowering the isk pay out and upping the LP pay out.
|
|
Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:44:24 -
[51] - Quote
There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy.
I survived Win95
|
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
68
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:48:51 -
[52] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Anyhow... thanks for confirming once more that carebears are ...
... cowards. ... bigmouths with nothing behind. ... incapable of actually addressing anything directly. ... only ever care about themselves.
Otso Bakarti ... the lowest of the low.
Thanks! Though agreeing with incursions are easy, dont be so shortsighted to say that only carebears do incursions.. i know plenty of pvpers and wh-ers that do incursions for the quick isk injections. I'd also like to point out that waving a stick and trying to hit people for doing a particular "thing" in the game is just sad on your part. There's no need to insult people or put people into a box. All they're doing is playing the game ccp is providing. IF you want to adress the horrible isk injection it can be done without poking the fatbellies that hop on their alt to farm sansha gold.... The ISK is nothng I care about. It's the constant whining about risk, people who shoot them, deliberate ignorance, wannabegood person attitude, wishing ill and death onto others, hell ... list is long! Incursions would be fine if it wasn't for the smug griefers who have no balls whatsoever and keep holding CCP hostage. Because without the lowest of the low incursions could be a thing that wasn't isolated from people who want to interfere, as the game usually allows people to! And if you believe people can interfere successfully, then please tell us how to do so! If there was anything that could be done, people would do it!
Sadly you're sounding like someone who got rejected from a community...
however, there are plenty of things you can do to deal with incursions. > blow up logies, blow up fcs - hint use alpha ;) > inflitrate 4 ships and get 30 x 2-3bil blown up easy > form a 25-30man hq fleet and pop moms \O/ > strike fear and warp around 20 tornados, you'll get results just by beeing there
you're making it sound like you were mistreated by some "carebear" and you have no idea how to hurt them back. rejected by community or contested by another... There's enough ways, but they too require help/friends/coordination. |
Memphis Baas
325
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:49:32 -
[53] - Quote
It's almost impossible to balance risk vs. reward...
... when the reward is coded into loot tables and %chance of drops, and thus somewhat fixed ... and the risk is entirely dependent on a whole bunch of PVP'ers piling into one system and deciding to gank evereyone there
My suggestion for combining these two very different systems would be to make ONLY the ships that have the loot vulnerable to attack by PVP with no CONCORD interference, and with everyone else invulnerable even to suicide ganks. That way the risk of PVP is coded in the loot table, so to speak. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10798
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:50:20 -
[54] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Ever hear the saying, "Mind your own business?" Or, in this world of the Duly Entitled, are you queen?
Oh. Incursions are content created by CCP. It is their game after all. I guess they can create content, too, if they WANT to.
This thread looks like it's caught a lot of folks that don't have enough to do. No, there is a very real argument that a risk-free ISK fountain like Incurions is bad for the game. Only CCP has all the numbers, but if players are choosing to make their ISK in complete safety in highsec instead of in more dangerous spaces, you are asphyxiating PvP opportunities and conflict elsewhere in the game. Again I don't have access to the numbers, but isn't it true that practically everyone you talk to has an "Incurion alt" for making ISK even if they consider themselves a wormholer or a nullsec player? If so, that is terrible for the game in the long run as there will be less and less targets outside of highsec and all that will be left is meaningless roams where players look for similar players for consensual fights to burn off their Incursion income. If players aren't actually fighting over resources, these inconsequential and random fights will get old quick and the game will stagnate. Sound familiar? CCP is going to have to turn the ship around soon and part of that will be a major effort to draw players back into more dangerous places like null/low/WH space to fight over income sources, and perhaps this new Jove space in the future. Perhaps they can do it with new and engaging game mechanics and rewards, but I fully expect them to have to dial back Incursion income at least a little to motivate players to leave highsec again. There is a place for PvE that is cooperative and PvP-free in Eve. It is just not as the most lucrative way to make ISK in the game.
High Sec Incursions are an aberration, way more than thukker/SOE agents in high sec or creating "mission farms" (ie going to a place with a lot of lvl 4 mission agents, declinining mssions till you have the best, and just running them without completing them for 7 days, turning those missions into a high sec version of null sec anoms) ever could be.
Incursions themselves don't spew a lot of raw isk into the economy because overall not many people do them (since they aren't afkable). Null anoms spew way more overall isk because people do afk them with throwaway ships, yea anom farming pays way less but way more people do it.
The argument that incursions are unbalanced actually isn't an economic one, it's just the fact that they are wrong on an individual level. Last night the FC of my incursion fleet said "we are on pace to crack 170 mil per our guys, keep it up). I was happy to watch my wallet grow, but the realization that as a null sec player the ONLY way to get to and sustain that kind of isk making would take me using TWO ships and TWO characters as opposed to the one I was controlling in an incursion fleet simply pressing F1 while keeping at range on the AAA anchor.
Anyone that can't see that the above is wrong is simply blind. That said, I still don't see what CCP can do to make it better without ruining high sec incursions.
|
Arla Sarain
389
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:50:30 -
[55] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Solecist Project wrote:You are still dodging my questions from the first page, griefer. I do not acknowledge your standing to interrogate anyone. And, I see you're happily and single-handedly championing this cause. I'll say this. If ego is the first cause, you win. Unfortunately, your bluster doesn't serve. Regardless of what this person says, there is still no there there. This is beginning to smack of conspiracy, however.
Your sole argument is that its ingame and hence should be left alone? Odd that prominent people from all sections of the game make their ISK of of highsec incursions. Defeats the purpose of actually doing anything BUT highsec incursions.
But it's just butthurt people who can't make themselves do as everyone else does and trying to ruin the fun, isn't it?
Challenging a POV is great, it makes conclusions. But you aren't doing that.
If denial made ISK, you'd be rich just by flashing your word wizardry on the forums. |
Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:52:47 -
[56] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Solecist Project wrote:You are still dodging my questions from the first page, griefer. I do not acknowledge your standing to interrogate anyone. And, I see you're happily and single-handedly championing this cause. I'll say this. If ego is the first cause, you win. Unfortunately, your bluster doesn't serve. Regardless of what this person says, there is still no there there. This is beginning to smack of conspiracy, however. Your sole argument is that its ingame and hence should be left alone? Odd that prominent people from all sections of the game make their ISK of of highsec incursions. Defeats the purpose of actually doing anything BUT highsec incursions. But it's just butthurt people who can't make themselves do as everyone else does and trying to ruin the fun, isn't it? Challenging a POV is great, it makes conclusions. But you aren't doing that. If denial made ISK, you'd be rich just by flashing your word wizardry on the forums. I'm not making an argument, or didn't you notice? I said this is not an issue, and it's being invented by people who have agendas. This just comes out of the blue...hey, let's dump a part of the game done in high sec. The pile of "dump a part of the game done in high sec" is so high on this forum, I'm amazed there's any bandwidth left for Sol's histrionics.
I survived Win95
|
Arla Sarain
389
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:56:06 -
[57] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:I said this is not an issue, and it's being invented by people who have agendas. This just comes out of the blue...
Yes its an issue. Yes people have agendas And its not out of the blue.
People want value from other walks of the game, proportional to the effort and risk that is demanded by them.
Pretty valid agenda, as that's what the game is partially advertised/implied for. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21884
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:56:20 -
[58] - Quote
FunGu Arsten wrote:Solecist Project wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Anyhow... thanks for confirming once more that carebears are ...
... cowards. ... bigmouths with nothing behind. ... incapable of actually addressing anything directly. ... only ever care about themselves.
Otso Bakarti ... the lowest of the low.
Thanks! Though agreeing with incursions are easy, dont be so shortsighted to say that only carebears do incursions.. i know plenty of pvpers and wh-ers that do incursions for the quick isk injections. I'd also like to point out that waving a stick and trying to hit people for doing a particular "thing" in the game is just sad on your part. There's no need to insult people or put people into a box. All they're doing is playing the game ccp is providing. IF you want to adress the horrible isk injection it can be done without poking the fatbellies that hop on their alt to farm sansha gold.... The ISK is nothng I care about. It's the constant whining about risk, people who shoot them, deliberate ignorance, wannabegood person attitude, wishing ill and death onto others, hell ... list is long! Incursions would be fine if it wasn't for the smug griefers who have no balls whatsoever and keep holding CCP hostage. Because without the lowest of the low incursions could be a thing that wasn't isolated from people who want to interfere, as the game usually allows people to! And if you believe people can interfere successfully, then please tell us how to do so! If there was anything that could be done, people would do it! Sadly you're sounding like someone who got rejected from a community... however, there are plenty of things you can do to deal with incursions. > blow up logies, blow up fcs - hint use alpha ;) > inflitrate 4 ships and get 30 x 2-3bil blown up easy > form a 25-30man hq fleet and pop moms \O/ > strike fear and warp around 20 tornados, you'll get results just by beeing there you're making it sound like you were mistreated by some "carebear" and you have no idea how to hurt them back. rejected by community or contested by another... There's enough ways, but they too require help/friends/coordination. You can keep talking out of your ass all day .... if there really was anything that could be done against a group of incursion runners, then ...
... people would do it successfully. ... this thread would not even exist.
That is literally all that needs to be considered to mark your words as bullshit.
If there was anything people would do it!
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
2Sonas1Cup
78
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:56:22 -
[59] - Quote
Just to put it in perspective of how game breaking incursions are:
- You only need a couple hours a WEEK running incursions to plex all your 3 or 4 accounts AND still have isks enough to blow on your random pvp.
Now theres 2 or 3 main groups of fleets going 24/7 with 40 pilots each. (not even counting on other groups) If you are on those fleets only a couple of hours a week, how many people like you do you think that run on those fleets in a single week?
THOUSANDS.
Now thousands of players that safely make isks that otherwise would have to grind in a different and "healthier" way.
On top of that, many of these players dont even log for the rest of the month because they have no incentive to do so. Or they log to... run a few incursions sites, yet again.
|
Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:59:08 -
[60] - Quote
Yes, I see the mob rushing to post...all three of you...
I survived Win95
|
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10799
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 11:59:55 -
[61] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy.
Lol, but no conspiracy. It does cheapen "outside of high sec" PVE. And the real 'conspiracy thinking' is the idea that anyone wants to 'push' people out of high sec. Frankly, no one gives a damn about where you play, and there are plenty enough targets for PVP players outside high sec so that "you just want to blow me up" idea is stupid.
The simple fact is this: it's wrong to be able to make the kind of income you can from simply joining an incursion fleet, following an anchor and pressing F1 (the only people that "work" are the FC and the logi guys) while being protected by CONCORD, when PVE activities outside of high sec (with a few exceptions) are not only NOT protected by CONCORD, but also pay less. And I know, I do all types of PVE including high sec incursions.
High sec incursions aren't the most unbalanced PVE activites in the game, that award goes to faction warfare missions when you can farm up crazy wealth with a cheap stealth bomber. But high sec incursions are unbalanced, period, no matter the "wahhh don't mess with my unbalanced income" crying by some incursion runners.
|
Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:02:48 -
[62] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy. Lol, but no conspiracy. It does cheapen "outside of high sec" PVE. And the real 'conspiracy thinking' is the idea that anyone wants to 'push' people out of high sec. Frankly, no one gives a damn about where you play, and there are plenty enough targets for PVP players outside high sec so that "you just want to blow me up" idea is stupid. The simple fact is this: it's wrong to be able to make the kind of income you can from simply joining an incursion fleet, following an anchor and pressing F1 (the only people that "work" are the FC and the logi guys) while being protected by CONCORD, when PVE activities outside of high sec (with a few exceptions) are not only NOT protected by CONCORD, but also pay less. And I know, I do all types of PVE including high sec incursions. High sec incursions aren't the most unbalanced PVE activites in the game, that award goes to faction warfare missions when you can farm up crazy wealth with a cheap stealth bomber. But high sec incursions are unbalanced, period, no matter the "wahhh don't mess with my unbalanced income" crying by some incursion runners. You are entitled to your opinion(s).
I survived Win95
|
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
422
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:03:42 -
[63] - Quote
i mean clearly is an issue when nullsec incursion dont get run because highsec is safer and the payouts dont warrant the risk.
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10800
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:09:12 -
[64] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:I'm not making an argument, or didn't you notice? I said this is not an issue, and it's being invented by people who have agendas. This just comes out of the blue...hey, let's dump a part of the game done in high sec. The pile of "dump a part of the game done in high sec" is so high on this forum, I'm amazed there's any bandwidth left for Sol's histrionics.
This is simply a defensive reaction by the only person who has an actual agenda (ie "don't mess with my activity"). The people who defend high sec incursions are the ones with the agenda. I'm not defending high sec incursions when I say CCP should probably leave them alone, I'm simply being realistic, btw.
But the high sec version of incursions ARE unbalanced. They would be less so if incursion rats spawned on gates and strangled high sec travel and commerce like they do in low and null or if CONCORD was deactivated in incursion constellations. Low and null incursions are balanced, because no CONCORD.
In other words, while high sec incursions aren't the end of the world, as they are now they are wrong for the game. This game has a well defined "risk/reward" scheme and high sec incursions violate that principal. The only risk in a high sec incursion is a sleepy logi pilot or two when the "Outunis" spawns.
|
Brutus Utama
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
25
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:11:56 -
[65] - Quote
Love how the OP is moaning about carebears... where do all your ships come from? and the mods? from the carebears who mine and build them.... eve without carebears you would all be stuck for ships and stuff.....
back on topic never done incursion its never bothered me i have no opinion on them....
also i think the incursion rats do actually move about system.... i seen them in belts before...
Thanks |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10800
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:12:49 -
[66] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy. Lol, but no conspiracy. It does cheapen "outside of high sec" PVE. And the real 'conspiracy thinking' is the idea that anyone wants to 'push' people out of high sec. Frankly, no one gives a damn about where you play, and there are plenty enough targets for PVP players outside high sec so that "you just want to blow me up" idea is stupid. The simple fact is this: it's wrong to be able to make the kind of income you can from simply joining an incursion fleet, following an anchor and pressing F1 (the only people that "work" are the FC and the logi guys) while being protected by CONCORD, when PVE activities outside of high sec (with a few exceptions) are not only NOT protected by CONCORD, but also pay less. And I know, I do all types of PVE including high sec incursions. High sec incursions aren't the most unbalanced PVE activites in the game, that award goes to faction warfare missions when you can farm up crazy wealth with a cheap stealth bomber. But high sec incursions are unbalanced, period, no matter the "wahhh don't mess with my unbalanced income" crying by some incursion runners. You are entitled to your opinion(s).
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. What you aren't entitled to is your own facts. All I'm posting are facts about incursions vs other types of PVE in other places.
What you are doing is denying the truth because of a personal agenda (no different than what real life politicians do), and that makes you wrong. If you don't mind being wrong, then you will stick to your line of thinking. You will have lots of company on this forum lol. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
422
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:14:38 -
[67] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:But the high sec version of incursions ARE unbalanced. They would be less so if incursion rats spawned on gates and strangled high sec travel and commerce like they do in low and null or if CONCORD was deactivated in incursion constellations. Low and null incursions are balanced, because no CONCORD.
i actually only found out about incursion rats not spawning on gates in high yesterday, after being instapopped in a blingy ishtar on a null incursion gate i thought no rats on gates in high was a bit meh.
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:16:01 -
[68] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy. Lol, but no conspiracy. It does cheapen "outside of high sec" PVE. And the real 'conspiracy thinking' is the idea that anyone wants to 'push' people out of high sec. Frankly, no one gives a damn about where you play, and there are plenty enough targets for PVP players outside high sec so that "you just want to blow me up" idea is stupid. The simple fact is this: it's wrong to be able to make the kind of income you can from simply joining an incursion fleet, following an anchor and pressing F1 (the only people that "work" are the FC and the logi guys) while being protected by CONCORD, when PVE activities outside of high sec (with a few exceptions) are not only NOT protected by CONCORD, but also pay less. And I know, I do all types of PVE including high sec incursions. High sec incursions aren't the most unbalanced PVE activites in the game, that award goes to faction warfare missions when you can farm up crazy wealth with a cheap stealth bomber. But high sec incursions are unbalanced, period, no matter the "wahhh don't mess with my unbalanced income" crying by some incursion runners. You are entitled to your opinion(s). Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. What you aren't entitled to is your own facts. All I'm posting are facts about incursions vs other types of PVE in other places. What you are doing is denying the truth because of a personal agenda (no different than what real life politicians do), and that makes you wrong. If you don't mind being wrong, then you will stick to your line of thinking. You will have lots of company on this forum lol. Yes, everyone with an agenda couches their opinions as facts. I'm reminded of what a judge once said: "If the law is with you, pound on the law. If the facts are with you, pound on the facts. If neither are with you, pound on the table." Just hope more than a few can't see the difference.
I survived Win95
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21885
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:17:25 -
[69] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote:Love how the OP is moaning about carebears... where do all your ships come from? and the mods? from the carebears who mine and build them.... eve without carebears you would all be stuck for ships and stuff.....
back on topic never done incursion its never bothered me i have no opinion on them....
Thanks Another delusional carebear argument. Just so you know, if carebears stopped mining and building ships then the rest of the player base would start doing it, because it would be worth it.
The difference is that those who aren't carebears know how not to die and don't whine about other people playing the game as it's intended!
Mining and manufcturing aren't "carebear activities" per se, they are simply mostly done by them because these people are carebears!
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:17:48 -
[70] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:i mean clearly is an issue when nullsec incursion dont get run because highsec is safer and the payouts dont warrant the risk.
People do not generally do incurisons in null sec because it is increased risk (mainly because moving to it) and sigificant hassle compared to their normal activities, once in 0.0 we had an incursion appear nearby, some people wanted to run it, but many people did not have suitable ships and found it too much hassle to set up for it, so nothing came off it. Its basically more to do with people setup to do a certain type of PvE and not keen to go to the extra effort and risk to run them. But thats the fault of hisec isn't it, stifles yawn...
Ella's Snack bar
|
|
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
69
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:18:19 -
[71] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote:Solecist Project wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Anyhow... thanks for confirming once more that carebears are ...
... cowards. ... bigmouths with nothing behind. ... incapable of actually addressing anything directly. ... only ever care about themselves.
Otso Bakarti ... the lowest of the low.
Thanks! Though agreeing with incursions are easy, dont be so shortsighted to say that only carebears do incursions.. i know plenty of pvpers and wh-ers that do incursions for the quick isk injections. I'd also like to point out that waving a stick and trying to hit people for doing a particular "thing" in the game is just sad on your part. There's no need to insult people or put people into a box. All they're doing is playing the game ccp is providing. IF you want to adress the horrible isk injection it can be done without poking the fatbellies that hop on their alt to farm sansha gold.... The ISK is nothng I care about. It's the constant whining about risk, people who shoot them, deliberate ignorance, wannabegood person attitude, wishing ill and death onto others, hell ... list is long! Incursions would be fine if it wasn't for the smug griefers who have no balls whatsoever and keep holding CCP hostage. Because without the lowest of the low incursions could be a thing that wasn't isolated from people who want to interfere, as the game usually allows people to! And if you believe people can interfere successfully, then please tell us how to do so! If there was anything that could be done, people would do it! Sadly you're sounding like someone who got rejected from a community... however, there are plenty of things you can do to deal with incursions. > blow up logies, blow up fcs - hint use alpha ;) > inflitrate 4 ships and get 30 x 2-3bil blown up easy > form a 25-30man hq fleet and pop moms \O/ > strike fear and warp around 20 tornados, you'll get results just by beeing there you're making it sound like you were mistreated by some "carebear" and you have no idea how to hurt them back. rejected by community or contested by another... There's enough ways, but they too require help/friends/coordination. You can keep talking out of your ass all day .... if there really was anything that could be done against a group of incursion runners, then ... ... people would do it successfully. ... this thread would not even exist. That is literally all that needs to be considered to mark your words as bullshit. If there was anything people would do it!
set up a 100bil bet with chribba i'll match that number - after chibba has comfirmed the 200Bil , i will then within 3 weeks get you a full HQ derp list of lossmails.
its not because you dont know how to **** incursioner's days up, that others wouldn't know... however WHY would you **** where you eat? Why would you burn your alts if you make your isk there? As for straight up blowing up ships, I agree that suicide ganking has come at greater costs and with 32 other dps and 7 logi on the grid your options are a bit more limit; though never underestimate that alpha off tornados..
you dont want to put the effort down if you are telling me it cant be done. added: most gankers tried with the wrong ships, and overal have less chances to escape with the loot, hence not "risking" it... risk vs reward on the otherside of the fence |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21885
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:24:46 -
[72] - Quote
So, if it can be done ... why do you need that bet?
The only thing that keeps you from needing to prove your bullshit ... ... is the fact that most people including me don't have 100 billion ISK.
You just once more prove that you are a bullshitter.
There is no need for that bet.
Prove that I'm wrong. You say you can do it so do it.
Everything else is just plain bullshitting.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10800
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:26:46 -
[73] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Yes, everyone with an agenda couches their opinions as facts. I'm reminded of what a judge once said: "If the law is with you, pound on the law. If the facts are with you, pound on the facts. If neither are with you, pound on the table." Just hope more than a few can't see the difference.
That's a long winded way of saying nothing. It's the equivalent of doing this.
|
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
423
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:29:33 -
[74] - Quote
i too want to see youtube video of blown up machariel/vindi and logi fleet in highsec
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
69
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:31:08 -
[75] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:So, if it can be done ... why do you need that bet?
The only thing that keeps you from needing to prove your bullshit ... ... is the fact that most people including me don't have 100 billion ISK.
You just once more prove that you are a bullshitter.
There is no need for that bet.
Prove that I'm wrong. You say you can do it so do it.
Everything else is just plain bullshitting.
because the most effective way is exposing my alts that will then be banned, that 100bil will get me the new alts to return to incursions in all communities when needed...
You're telling me i'm talking out of my ass, I know i can do it, however I'd rather not destroy ships of pilots i fly with on a weekly base... so when and if i do - i'll use alts that i can then sell and replace...
Coming to a discussion and saying NO it cant be done isn't a disscussion... just a rant of someone who is in an emotional state of butthurt.
you had your point that incursions are easy but you are turning to childisch cries as people are making logical points, bringup argument and counter-arguments.
Bottom line: incursion are easy, no risk in the pve aspect, everyone has an alt farming isk and gankers have better targets ( collect the loot after gank) though! you can very effectly **** a fleet over if you are willing to get that alt banned from incursions.... now find a few friends that want to burn down incursions and you can collect isk and tears howeverlong you feel like it. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10800
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:35:44 -
[76] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i mean clearly is an issue when nullsec incursion dont get run because highsec is safer and the payouts dont warrant the risk.
People do not generally do incurisons in null sec because it is increased risk (mainly because moving to it) and sigificant hassle compared to their normal activities, once in 0.0 we had an incursion appear nearby, some people wanted to run it, but many people did not have suitable ships and found it too much hassle to set up for it, so nothing came off it. Its basically more to do with people setup to do a certain type of PvE and not keen to go to the extra effort and risk to run them. But thats the fault of hisec isn't it, stifles yawn...
Who said anything about "fault"? An unbalanced thing is unbalanced no matter who it benefits.
The current situation is basically lvl 5 missions all over again. CCP broke lvl 5s in a patch, which allowed people to run them in high sec (if you picked the right agent and had the standings with the right 'near highsec" lvl 5 agents to decline ones not in high sec).
People got used to them and CCP didn't fix the issue for a long time. Then CCP finally got around to fixing them because lvl 5 missions were never intended to be in high sec, and the high sec people screamed bloody murder and "why u nerf us!!?!".
Why ccp didn't learn that you can't put overly lucrative farmable pve in high sec after that I just don't know. But they did, while making "better paying" low and null incursions that actually pay LESS than high sec incursions because high sec is safe enough to spawn communities of multi-billion isk pirate incursion boats. IMO the entire incursion thing need to be rethought, but I know that's a low priority for ccp because the don't seem to much care about balance among PVE activities.
|
2Sonas1Cup
79
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:37:13 -
[77] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:i too want to see youtube video of blown up machariel/vindi and logi fleet in highsec
Just wait 5 more years.
FunGu Arsten is planning.
Or should we say,.. hes planning to kill his own fleet because hes a incursion FC.
And then show us on the forums that incursioners arent safe and the isks we make in highsec incursions is balanced.
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21886
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:37:40 -
[78] - Quote
And still you ignore actual reality.
If it could be done ... ... people would do it.
Continuously, I might add.
I refuse to keep repeating myself over and over ... ... just because you ignore reality.
Prove it can be done. Show us what everyone else is doing wrong. Show us there's a point to even trying.
Or stop talking out of your ass.
kthxdie. ingame, of course.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
69
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:37:59 -
[79] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i mean clearly is an issue when nullsec incursion dont get run because highsec is safer and the payouts dont warrant the risk.
People do not generally do incurisons in null sec because it is increased risk (mainly because moving to it) and sigificant hassle compared to their normal activities, once in 0.0 we had an incursion appear nearby, some people wanted to run it, but many people did not have suitable ships and found it too much hassle to set up for it, so nothing came off it. Its basically more to do with people setup to do a certain type of PvE and not keen to go to the extra effort and risk to run them. But thats the fault of hisec isn't it, stifles yawn... Who said anything about "fault"? An unbalanced thing is unbalanced no matter who it benefits. The current situation is basically lvl 5 missions all over again. CCP broke lvl 5s in a patch, which allowed people to run them in high sec (if you picked the right agent and had the standings with the right 'near highsec" lvl 5 agents to decline ones not in high sec). People got used to them and CCP didn't fix the issue for a long time. Then CCP finally got around to fixing them because lvl 5 missions were never intended to be in high sec, and the high sec people screamed bloody murder and "why u nerf us!!?!". Why ccp didn't learn that you can't put overly lucrative farmable pve in high sec after that I just don't know. But they did, while making "better paying" low and null incursions that actually pay LESS than high sec incursions because high sec is safe enough to spawn communities of multi-billion isk pirate incursion boats. IMO the entire incursion thing need to be rethought, but I know that's a low priority for ccp because the don't seem to much care about balance among PVE activities.
nothing but "agreed" on this one |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21886
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:40:17 -
[80] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i mean clearly is an issue when nullsec incursion dont get run because highsec is safer and the payouts dont warrant the risk.
People do not generally do incurisons in null sec because it is increased risk (mainly because moving to it) and sigificant hassle compared to their normal activities, once in 0.0 we had an incursion appear nearby, some people wanted to run it, but many people did not have suitable ships and found it too much hassle to set up for it, so nothing came off it. Its basically more to do with people setup to do a certain type of PvE and not keen to go to the extra effort and risk to run them. But thats the fault of hisec isn't it, stifles yawn... Who said anything about "fault"? An unbalanced thing is unbalanced no matter who it benefits. The current situation is basically lvl 5 missions all over again. CCP broke lvl 5s in a patch, which allowed people to run them in high sec (if you picked the right agent and had the standings with the right 'near highsec" lvl 5 agents to decline ones not in high sec). People got used to them and CCP didn't fix the issue for a long time. Then CCP finally got around to fixing them because lvl 5 missions were never intended to be in high sec, and the high sec people screamed bloody murder and "why u nerf us!!?!". Why ccp didn't learn that you can't put overly lucrative farmable pve in high sec after that I just don't know. But they did, while making "better paying" low and null incursions that actually pay LESS than high sec incursions because high sec is safe enough to spawn communities of multi-billion isk pirate incursion boats. IMO the entire incursion thing need to be rethought, but I know that's a low priority for ccp because the don't seem to much care about balance among PVE activities. Can confirm this bug. Happened in dodixie. The Search Party 2/2.
Funnily enough it was rather easy to run with a speedtanking rifter and a cane.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
|
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
69
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:43:11 -
[81] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i too want to see youtube video of blown up machariel/vindi and logi fleet in highsec Just wait 5 more years. FunGu Arsten is planning. Or should we say,.. hes planning to kill his own fleet because hes a incursion FC. And then show us on the forums that incursioners arent safe and the isks we make in highsec incursions is balanced.
lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.
as for burning down a full hq fleet: get 4-5 logi alts, fly incursions for a couple of days on each. On one particular sunny afternoon get all logis in the fleet and stop repping in a TCRC, abandon wrecks when popped * bring in neutral tanked ROKH fit with salvager and tractorbeams
Collect billions - while you rep yourself - when done colllecting free loot, align out and when the rokh is taking scrams warp out 4 -5 logis and sacrifice the hero rokh after you've stored loot in the logis.
\O/ see some chat channels close on you while you count the isk. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10800
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:48:16 -
[82] - Quote
FunGu Arsten wrote: lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.
That's what I do, because I don't see it changing.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:51:14 -
[83] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i mean clearly is an issue when nullsec incursion dont get run because highsec is safer and the payouts dont warrant the risk.
People do not generally do incurisons in null sec because it is increased risk (mainly because moving to it) and sigificant hassle compared to their normal activities, once in 0.0 we had an incursion appear nearby, some people wanted to run it, but many people did not have suitable ships and found it too much hassle to set up for it, so nothing came off it. Its basically more to do with people setup to do a certain type of PvE and not keen to go to the extra effort and risk to run them. But thats the fault of hisec isn't it, stifles yawn... Who said anything about "fault"? An unbalanced thing is unbalanced no matter who it benefits. The current situation is basically lvl 5 missions all over again. CCP broke lvl 5s in a patch, which allowed people to run them in high sec (if you picked the right agent and had the standings with the right 'near highsec" lvl 5 agents to decline ones not in high sec). People got used to them and CCP didn't fix the issue for a long time. Then CCP finally got around to fixing them because lvl 5 missions were never intended to be in high sec, and the high sec people screamed bloody murder and "why u nerf us!!?!". Why ccp didn't learn that you can't put overly lucrative farmable pve in high sec after that I just don't know. But they did, while making "better paying" low and null incursions that actually pay LESS than high sec incursions because high sec is safe enough to spawn communities of multi-billion isk pirate incursion boats. IMO the entire incursion thing need to be rethought, but I know that's a low priority for ccp because the don't seem to much care about balance among PVE activities.
This is a classic rant, the thing was that some of us wanted to run challenging missions as a team, level 4's are actually a laugh when you do it with a small fleet but only a very few missions are a challenge and to do that one has to shoot all the triggers, but level 5's in hisec were for a brief period a lot of fun for us, and then the risk reward player killers did their whining and they got them removed from hisec . Thanks for your work in making PvE boring for us...
Ella's Snack bar
|
Zerlick
Real Life Outpost
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:54:12 -
[84] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.
Then you do something else? You don't have to go to 0.0. How is it a bother for you that people like doing incursion. I man they way I feel is this; I'm paying for this game if I want to log in once a month to so incursions I'll do that
And if you feel strongly about it move to 0.0 yourself |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
423
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 12:56:14 -
[85] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i mean clearly is an issue when nullsec incursion dont get run because highsec is safer and the payouts dont warrant the risk.
People do not generally do incurisons in null sec because it is increased risk (mainly because moving to it) and sigificant hassle compared to their normal activities, once in 0.0 we had an incursion appear nearby, some people wanted to run it, but many people did not have suitable ships and found it too much hassle to set up for it, so nothing came off it. Its basically more to do with people setup to do a certain type of PvE and not keen to go to the extra effort and risk to run them. But thats the fault of hisec isn't it, stifles yawn... Who said anything about "fault"? An unbalanced thing is unbalanced no matter who it benefits. The current situation is basically lvl 5 missions all over again. CCP broke lvl 5s in a patch, which allowed people to run them in high sec (if you picked the right agent and had the standings with the right 'near highsec" lvl 5 agents to decline ones not in high sec). People got used to them and CCP didn't fix the issue for a long time. Then CCP finally got around to fixing them because lvl 5 missions were never intended to be in high sec, and the high sec people screamed bloody murder and "why u nerf us!!?!". Why ccp didn't learn that you can't put overly lucrative farmable pve in high sec after that I just don't know. But they did, while making "better paying" low and null incursions that actually pay LESS than high sec incursions because high sec is safe enough to spawn communities of multi-billion isk pirate incursion boats. IMO the entire incursion thing need to be rethought, but I know that's a low priority for ccp because the don't seem to much care about balance among PVE activities. This is a classic rant, the thing was that some of us wanted to run challenging missions as a team, level 4's are actually a laugh when you do it with a small fleet but only a very few missions are a challenge and to do that one has to shoot all the triggers, but level 5's in hisec were for a brief period a lot of fun for us, and then the risk reward player killers did their whining and they got them removed from hisec . Thanks for your work in making PvE boring for us...
whats broing? the fact you cant make nullsec income with concord protection? if your bored then move to somewhere more fun, its not really hard is it
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:04:02 -
[86] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i mean clearly is an issue when nullsec incursion dont get run because highsec is safer and the payouts dont warrant the risk.
People do not generally do incurisons in null sec because it is increased risk (mainly because moving to it) and sigificant hassle compared to their normal activities, once in 0.0 we had an incursion appear nearby, some people wanted to run it, but many people did not have suitable ships and found it too much hassle to set up for it, so nothing came off it. Its basically more to do with people setup to do a certain type of PvE and not keen to go to the extra effort and risk to run them. But thats the fault of hisec isn't it, stifles yawn... Who said anything about "fault"? An unbalanced thing is unbalanced no matter who it benefits. The current situation is basically lvl 5 missions all over again. CCP broke lvl 5s in a patch, which allowed people to run them in high sec (if you picked the right agent and had the standings with the right 'near highsec" lvl 5 agents to decline ones not in high sec). People got used to them and CCP didn't fix the issue for a long time. Then CCP finally got around to fixing them because lvl 5 missions were never intended to be in high sec, and the high sec people screamed bloody murder and "why u nerf us!!?!". Why ccp didn't learn that you can't put overly lucrative farmable pve in high sec after that I just don't know. But they did, while making "better paying" low and null incursions that actually pay LESS than high sec incursions because high sec is safe enough to spawn communities of multi-billion isk pirate incursion boats. IMO the entire incursion thing need to be rethought, but I know that's a low priority for ccp because the don't seem to much care about balance among PVE activities. This is a classic rant, the thing was that some of us wanted to run challenging missions as a team, level 4's are actually a laugh when you do it with a small fleet but only a very few missions are a challenge and to do that one has to shoot all the triggers, but level 5's in hisec were for a brief period a lot of fun for us, and then the risk reward player killers did their whining and they got them removed from hisec . Thanks for your work in making PvE boring for us... whats broing? the fact you cant make nullsec income with concord protection? if your bored then move to somewhere more fun, its not really hard is it I'll bet he's entitled to his opinion, too!
I survived Win95
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:04:04 -
[87] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
This is a classic rant, the thing was that some of us wanted to run challenging missions as a team, level 4's are actually a laugh when you do it with a small fleet but only a very few missions are a challenge and to do that one has to shoot all the triggers, but level 5's in hisec were for a brief period a lot of fun for us, and then the risk reward player killers did their whining and they got them removed from hisec . Thanks for your work in making PvE boring for us...
whats broing? the fact you cant make nullsec income with concord protection? if your bored then move to somewhere more fun, its not really hard is it
Concord does not exist in null sec are you some sort of wombat?
There was some nice missions that required team effort and some people whined and got them moved to lowsec, for a brief period some people had a lot of fun doing them as a group, but people whined and the fun was removed from us all because people could not find anything to kill in lowsec because they killed off anyone who went in there.. And people now do level 4's as a group every so often and have fun blowing up the damsel, or setting all the triggers off for something challenging in PVE in hisec...
Ella's Snack bar
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21887
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:07:31 -
[88] - Quote
FunGu Arsten wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i too want to see youtube video of blown up machariel/vindi and logi fleet in highsec Just wait 5 more years. FunGu Arsten is planning. Or should we say,.. hes planning to kill his own fleet because hes a incursion FC. And then show us on the forums that incursioners arent safe and the isks we make in highsec incursions is balanced. lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow. as for burning down a full hq fleet: get 4-5 logi alts, fly incursions for a couple of days on each. On one particular sunny afternoon get all logis in the fleet and stop repping in a TCRC, abandon wrecks when popped * bring in neutral tanked ROKH fit with salvager and tractorbeams Collect billions - while you rep yourself - when done colllecting free loot, align out and when the rokh is taking scrams warp out 4 -5 logis and sacrifice the hero rokh after you've stored loot in the logis. \O/ see some chat channels close on you while you count the isk. Thanks for posting how you would do it.
I can see that you agree the risk is pretty much non existant, because this approach ... fully legitimate ... is a one trick pony ... ... which needs a huge amount of investment for a one time thing.
Any other ideas that could actually have an impact?
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2230
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:08:08 -
[89] - Quote
Oh man if only highsec wasn't so absurdly safe. We wouldn't have these kinds of arguments. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
423
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:08:56 -
[90] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
This is a classic rant, the thing was that some of us wanted to run challenging missions as a team, level 4's are actually a laugh when you do it with a small fleet but only a very few missions are a challenge and to do that one has to shoot all the triggers, but level 5's in hisec were for a brief period a lot of fun for us, and then the risk reward player killers did their whining and they got them removed from hisec . Thanks for your work in making PvE boring for us...
whats broing? the fact you cant make nullsec income with concord protection? if your bored then move to somewhere more fun, its not really hard is it Concord does not exist in null sec are you some sort of wombat? There was some nice missions that required team effort and some people whined and got them moved to lowsec, for a brief period some people had a lot of fun doing them as a group, but people whined and the fun was removed from us all because people could not find anything to kill in lowsec because they killed off anyone who went in there.. And people now do level 4's as a group every so often and have fun blowing up the damsel, or setting all the triggers off for something challenging in PVE in hisec... EDIT: The correct thing to have done was give some extra reward for the ones on lowsec, but CCP are not clever at times...
you are the only wombat for not even understanding a word i just said
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:15:07 -
[91] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
This is a classic rant, the thing was that some of us wanted to run challenging missions as a team, level 4's are actually a laugh when you do it with a small fleet but only a very few missions are a challenge and to do that one has to shoot all the triggers, but level 5's in hisec were for a brief period a lot of fun for us, and then the risk reward player killers did their whining and they got them removed from hisec . Thanks for your work in making PvE boring for us...
whats broing? the fact you cant make nullsec income with concord protection? if your bored then move to somewhere more fun, its not really hard is it Concord does not exist in null sec are you some sort of wombat? There was some nice missions that required team effort and some people whined and got them moved to lowsec, for a brief period some people had a lot of fun doing them as a group, but people whined and the fun was removed from us all because people could not find anything to kill in lowsec because they killed off anyone who went in there.. And people now do level 4's as a group every so often and have fun blowing up the damsel, or setting all the triggers off for something challenging in PVE in hisec... EDIT: The correct thing to have done was give some extra reward for the ones on lowsec, but CCP are not clever at times... you are the only wombat for not even understanding a word i just said
You make your own safety in null sec I thought everyone understood that, but obviously not, take Deklin for example that is safer than hisec, its remote and protected by the ultimate 0.0 war machine, behind loads of other regions that attackers have to get past to attack. That is the only place in the game where you have a certain amount of security, OK certain constellations in Cobalt Edge are pretty damn good in terms of being difficult to get to. I have been in null, get it...
It was a great shame that engaging team orientated PvE content was removed from hisec due to the whining by HTFU types.
Ella's Snack bar
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10800
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:17:56 -
[92] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
This is a classic rant, the thing was that some of us wanted to run challenging missions as a team, level 4's are actually a laugh when you do it with a small fleet but only a very few missions are a challenge and to do that one has to shoot all the triggers, but level 5's in hisec were for a brief period a lot of fun for us, and then the risk reward player killers did their whining and they got them removed from hisec . Thanks for your work in making PvE boring for us...
Oh, it's classic all right. You and people like you are why we have a problem (in game and in the world in general).
What you posted here translates as "I was having fun doing something that I didn't care was bad for the game, then the people who actually do care about the game complained and CCP took away my unbalanced thing". You prove my theory about "carebearism": At the heart of carebear thinking is a selfishness so intense, the carebear thinks it's normal to be that way.
CCP said over and over that they didn't remove high sec lvl 5s because of complaining, but because high sec lvl 5s were never intended, it was a BUG that a few people learned how to exploit. It created the unfair situation of allowing a few players to farm up income (SOLO, in a Rattlesnake) that should not have been possible.
What's incredible is that CCP turned right around and made incursions, which did nothing but replicate the high sec lvl 5 problem.
Oh, and that "fun" argument is a lie. When CCP announced they were going to nerf incursions, Incursion runners claimed "it's not about the isk, it's about the fun and the community!". CCP nerfed incursions and those communities that somehow didn't care about isk died overnight, proving that they were lying. If it was about 'fun' the isk wouldn't matter.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:22:34 -
[93] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
This is a classic rant, the thing was that some of us wanted to run challenging missions as a team, level 4's are actually a laugh when you do it with a small fleet but only a very few missions are a challenge and to do that one has to shoot all the triggers, but level 5's in hisec were for a brief period a lot of fun for us, and then the risk reward player killers did their whining and they got them removed from hisec . Thanks for your work in making PvE boring for us...
Oh, it's classic all right. You and people like you are why we have a problem (in game and in the world in general). What you posted here translates as "I was having fun doing something that I didn't care was bad for the game, then the people who actually do care about the game complained and CCP took away my unbalanced thing". You prove my theory about "carebearism": At the heart of carebear thinking is a selfishness so intense, the carebear thinks it's normal to be that way. CCP said over and over that they didn't remove high sec lvl 5s because of complaining, but because high sec lvl 5s were never intended, it was a BUG that a few people learned how to exploit. It created the unfair situation of allowing a few players to farm up income (SOLO, in a Rattlesnake) that should not have been possible. What's incredible is that CCP turned right around and made incursions, which did nothing but replicate the high sec lvl 5 problem. Oh, and that "fun" argument is a lie. When CCP announced they were going to nerf incursions, Incursion runners claimed "it's not about the isk, it's about the fun and the community!". CCP nerfed incursions and those communities that somehow didn't care about isk died overnight, proving that they were lying. If it was about 'fun' the isk wouldn't matter.
Really so the brief period when me and some corp mates did level 5's in a small fleet were lies, yeah right we had a really good time doing them and you lot ruined it again...
Ella's Snack bar
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10800
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:23:10 -
[94] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Concord does not exist in null sec are you some sort of wombat?
Typical, you misunderstand what he was saying and then call him names. You are the worst part of this community.
Quote: There was some nice missions that required team effort and some people whined and got them moved to lowsec, for a brief period some people had a lot of fun doing them as a group, but people whined and the fun was removed from us all because people could not find anything to kill in lowsec because they killed off anyone who went in there.. And people now do level 4's as a group every so often and have fun blowing up the damsel, or setting all the triggers off for something challenging in PVE in hisec...
Bull. people did high sec lvl 5s solo in rattlesnakes or in RR Domis with an alt.. And again, no one cares about where you play, they whole "you just want me to go to low so you can kill me" thing is just paranoid dementia talk.
Quote: EDIT: The correct thing to have done was give some extra reward for the ones in lowsec, but CCP are not clever at times...
Like they did with low and null incursions... It's amazing, you can SEE that that does not work, and you still think it's a good idea. Amazing.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15674
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:24:13 -
[95] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:If I remember correctly it was said, the most liquid income for individual players comes from nullsec ratting ... I don't think Incursions are a big issue, especially as there is a limited supply of them in highsec.
You make less ratting in null than you do in high sec incursions. A lot less.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
424
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:24:31 -
[96] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
This is a classic rant, the thing was that some of us wanted to run challenging missions as a team, level 4's are actually a laugh when you do it with a small fleet but only a very few missions are a challenge and to do that one has to shoot all the triggers, but level 5's in hisec were for a brief period a lot of fun for us, and then the risk reward player killers did their whining and they got them removed from hisec . Thanks for your work in making PvE boring for us...
whats broing? the fact you cant make nullsec income with concord protection? if your bored then move to somewhere more fun, its not really hard is it Concord does not exist in null sec are you some sort of wombat? There was some nice missions that required team effort and some people whined and got them moved to lowsec, for a brief period some people had a lot of fun doing them as a group, but people whined and the fun was removed from us all because people could not find anything to kill in lowsec because they killed off anyone who went in there.. And people now do level 4's as a group every so often and have fun blowing up the damsel, or setting all the triggers off for something challenging in PVE in hisec... EDIT: The correct thing to have done was give some extra reward for the ones on lowsec, but CCP are not clever at times... you are the only wombat for not even understanding a word i just said You make your own safety in null sec I thought everyone understood that, but obviously not, take Deklin for example that is safer than hisec, its remote and protected by the ultimate 0.0 war machine, behind loads of other regions that attackers have to get past to attack. That is the only place in the game where you have a certain amount of security, OK certain constellations in Cobalt Edge are pretty damn good in terms of being difficult to get to. I have been in null, get it... It was a great shame that engaging team orientated PvE content was removed from hisec due to the whining by HTFU types.
you still dont understand what im talking about, simply you want to earn similar income of that of nullsec pve but want the protection of concord ie..in highsec lots of isk and lots of safety, you claim you are bored of highsec pve because they took lvl 5's out but yet you seem reluctant to actually move out of highsec to find the fun again
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:25:51 -
[97] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Concord does not exist in null sec are you some sort of wombat?
Typical, you misunderstand what he was saying and then call him names. You are the worst part of this community. Quote: There was some nice missions that required team effort and some people whined and got them moved to lowsec, for a brief period some people had a lot of fun doing them as a group, but people whined and the fun was removed from us all because people could not find anything to kill in lowsec because they killed off anyone who went in there.. And people now do level 4's as a group every so often and have fun blowing up the damsel, or setting all the triggers off for something challenging in PVE in hisec...
Bull. people did high sec lvl 5s solo in rattlesnakes or in RR Domis with an alt.. And again, no one cares about where you play, they whole "you just want me to go to low so you can kill me" thing is just paranoid dementia talk. Quote: EDIT: The correct thing to have done was give some extra reward for the ones in lowsec, but CCP are not clever at times...
Like they did with low and null incursions... It's amazing, you can SEE that that does not work, and you still think it's a good idea. Amazing.
So people come in do max ISK per hour and get the content removed from those that did them for fun, I suppose thats right isn't it.
Ella's Snack bar
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Aladar Dangerface
Zebra Corp The Bastion
156
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:26:48 -
[98] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy. Take the tinfoil hat off please, no one is saying everyone should move to null/low/wh space, they are saying 'why should they earn less isk while risking more than someone earning a lot of isk while risking very little'.
EVE is based on risk vs reward which is why people hate on incursions and if you actually read what people are saying you would know this already.
I don't need twitter.
I'm already following you.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10801
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:27:43 -
[99] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Really so the brief period when me and some corp mates did level 5's in a small fleet were lies, yeah right we had a really good time doing them and you lot ruined it again...
Case in point about selfish carebearism. It doesn't matter that it was a bug. It doesn't matter that it was wrong. It doesn't matter that most people did them solo with Rattlesnakes (killing that whole "group pve" argument). What mattered to you is that you liked it.
And "you lot" (ie people pointing out that a bug existed) did noting, no one made CCP fix something they said was a BUG, they made that choice. And it was a good one, one of the few CCP has made with PVE imo.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:29:49 -
[100] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Really so the brief period when me and some corp mates did level 5's in a small fleet were lies, yeah right we had a really good time doing them and you lot ruined it again...
Case in point about selfish carebearism. It doesn't matter that it was a bug. It doesn't matter that it was wrong. It doesn't matter that most people did them solo with Rattlesnakes (killing that whole "group pve" argument). What mattered to you is that you liked it. And "you lot" (ie people pointing out that a bug existed) did noting, no one made CCP fix something they said was a BUG, they made that choice. And it was a good one, one of the few CCP has made with PVE imo.
But where is the engaging team PvE in hisec?
EDIT: Coincidently I am not a carebear...
Ella's Snack bar
|
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10801
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:31:43 -
[101] - Quote
Aladar Dangerface wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy. Take the tinfoil hat off please, no one is saying everyone should move to null/low/wh space, they are saying 'why should they earn less isk while risking more than someone earning a lot of isk while risking very little'. EVE is based on risk vs reward which is why people hate on incursions and if you actually read what people are saying you would know this already.
That's well said. As I said in my example, it's crazy that I ca make 150 mil per hour with my ONE sniper mach in high sec (in an incursion fleet where all I have to do is keep at range of the aaa and broadcast for shields and occasionally cap, damn Outuni Wave) when It takes me TWO ships and characters to do the same thing in space someone had to fight for and upgrade.
Personally, I don't give a flip about how fat some high sec dude's wallet is or isn't, CCP made incursions so if you want to do them, have at it. But that doesn't change the fact that it's pretty unbalanced, even if it's not faction warfare bomber unbalanced lol.
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Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
27
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Posted - 2015.04.27 13:32:15 -
[102] - Quote
Aladar Dangerface wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy. Take the tinfoil hat off please, no one is saying everyone should move to null/low/wh space, they are saying 'why should they earn less isk while risking more than someone earning a lot of isk while risking very little'. EVE is based on risk vs reward which is why people hate on incursions and if you actually read what people are saying you would know this already. Try reading the subject line of the OP. The "tin foil hat" reference is tired, and worn.
I survived Win95
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Milan Nantucket
New Eden Misfits
218
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:32:31 -
[103] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:SilentAsTheGrave wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. Your grammar is a bigger problem than Incursions. Yea but you understand what Im saying right? It is really nonsensical how much highsec incursions pay. It kills eve. CCP: "Youre not supposed to feel safe when you log in, youre supposed to feel a cold and harsh environment" Well this is totally the opposite of what eve feels like right now if youre an incursioner. Heres what I do as an incursioner in eve: - log in - waitlist and grab a beer - join fleet make 250mil an hour with lp included (each account) - run for 2 or 3 hours and log out Wheres the harsh and cold environment in this?
Well I hate the grind of incursions however it does pay for my expensive null sec ship losses. If your looking for a cold harsh environment then post your incursion toons name and next time I am repping ships I would be happy to ignore your request for shield, armor, and cap. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3337
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:32:42 -
[104] - Quote
The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.
Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15675
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:33:48 -
[105] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:take Deklin for example that is safer than hisec
Please provide any evidence that this is the case. Just a quick glance at the KB shows that ratting ship losses dwarf any high sec mission/incursion area despite the far higher population of highsec.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
842
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:34:59 -
[106] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:take Deklin for example that is safer than hisec Please provide any evidence that this is the case. Just a quick glance at the KB shows that ratting ship losses dwarf any high sec mission/incursion area despite the far higher population of highsec.
Already proved that in another thread, despite certain removals from that thread.
Ella's Snack bar
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21889
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:36:06 -
[107] - Quote
There is no engaging group PvE in highsec. Incursions aren't engaging.
The only remotely engaging PvE is burner missions ... ... until they are equally predictable to run.
Anything that can be read up on prior to doing it ... ... is not in any way or form engaging.
And you just prove the point about the typical carebear selfishness.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10801
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:36:26 -
[108] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Really so the brief period when me and some corp mates did level 5's in a small fleet were lies, yeah right we had a really good time doing them and you lot ruined it again...
Case in point about selfish carebearism. It doesn't matter that it was a bug. It doesn't matter that it was wrong. It doesn't matter that most people did them solo with Rattlesnakes (killing that whole "group pve" argument). What mattered to you is that you liked it. And "you lot" (ie people pointing out that a bug existed) did noting, no one made CCP fix something they said was a BUG, they made that choice. And it was a good one, one of the few CCP has made with PVE imo. But where is the engaging team PvE in hisec? EDIT: Coincidently I am not a carebear...
It's not in incursions (and it wasn't in high sec lvl 5s, again those were mostly done solo, I know, I did a whole lot of solo high sec lvl 5s). Incursions were supposed to be 'engaging team pve', but it's just monotonous FC led farming that people figured out within a week of it's launch. Good isk but so boring I just sold my incursion boat, I'll buy another in a couple months when I can stomach it.
This is why EVE is a sandbox game, because while I love CCP, they are horrible and making "content", it's better that we make out own.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15678
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:36:28 -
[109] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.
Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions.
Station trading does come with risk.
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
426
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:36:47 -
[110] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.
Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions.
not really you face pvp in market trading daily, you dont in incursions
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Mr Duffo
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
98
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:38:08 -
[111] - Quote
I would say remove incursions from low sec. So many times my cruisers have died to gate rats :D Most will abandon the area till incursion is over |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1724
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:38:31 -
[112] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote: lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.
That's what I do, because I don't see it changing.
Fun fact, the more people getting on the "milk the cow" bandwagon, the lesser the income will be because the number of sites at the same time is limited. No more than 15 HQ fleet (this would already be lower isk/hours because of the delay to get another site would start showing up) will ever be able to get a payout at the same time. 600 character can effectively max it out. If everybody were to put their bling ship where their mouth is, everybody would constantly get contested and chance are incursion would be in "respawn" mode more often after episode of rage popping moms. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21889
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:38:36 -
[113] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.
Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions. Except that traders are risking billions, because trading is a PvP activity.
You're not a trader it seems. Traders can't predict what will happen, unlike incursion runners.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15678
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:39:18 -
[114] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:take Deklin for example that is safer than hisec Please provide any evidence that this is the case. Just a quick glance at the KB shows that ratting ship losses dwarf any high sec mission/incursion area despite the far higher population of highsec. Already proved that in another thread, despite certain removals from that thread.
You proved nothing. Hundreds of losses in null vs a dosen in highsec mission areas. The argument the highsec is more dangerous is a lie.
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2174
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:39:45 -
[115] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
I often dream of how the hisec community would self-solve problems like this, if CCP locked people out of NPC corps after 60 days and closed the drop-corp wardec dodging exploit.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21889
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:40:24 -
[116] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote: lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.
That's what I do, because I don't see it changing. Fun fact, the more people getting on the "milk the cow" bandwagon, the lesser the income will be because the number of sites at the same time is limited. No more than 15 HQ fleet (this would already be lower isk/hours because of the delay to get another site would start showing up) will ever be able to get a payout at the same time. 600 character can effectively max it out. If everybody were to put their bling ship where their mouth is, everybody would constantly get contested and chance are incursion would be in "respawn" mode more often after episode of rage popping moms. Reminds me of how the griefers raged about the goons for killing their moms.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10801
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:44:09 -
[117] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.
Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions.
That's just insane. "Risk v Reward" in this instance is describing what you can do via in-space activities that actually generate wealth. Trading doesn't generate isk, it's a player run emergent activity where players exchange things.
In other words, station trading has nothing to do with this discussion. We are talking about activities that actually create the isk and items that station traders use. Without PVE , station traders wouldn't exist. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1724
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:45:10 -
[118] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote: lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.
That's what I do, because I don't see it changing. Fun fact, the more people getting on the "milk the cow" bandwagon, the lesser the income will be because the number of sites at the same time is limited. No more than 15 HQ fleet (this would already be lower isk/hours because of the delay to get another site would start showing up) will ever be able to get a payout at the same time. 600 character can effectively max it out. If everybody were to put their bling ship where their mouth is, everybody would constantly get contested and chance are incursion would be in "respawn" mode more often after episode of rage popping moms. Reminds me of how the griefers raged about the goons for killing their moms.
With the amount of traction threads like this get, I can't understand why no-one was ever able to motivate 40 dudes to go run a 100+ million isk/hours fleet while also raining on someone else's parade at least partially by stealing some of the best sites.
Then make that 80 dudes and you start to slowdown everybody because sites are not insta-respawning and you also pose a thread to the mom.
Hell you can make it a bit more risky by even solo by pre-loading TCRC sites. A good group will get over it but it's still a tighter spot then smooth sailing the original site from scratch. |
2Sonas1Cup
84
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:48:30 -
[119] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.
Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions. Station trading does come with risk.
1st no, you don't make nearly as much isk and as consistently with station trading as you can with incursions. Been there done that, on top of all the effort you have to put out on your .01 pvp
2nd if there were as many people station trading as there are running incursions then you wouldn't make single penny, be glad not many people trade properly and there's still enough economy for you.
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21889
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:52:22 -
[120] - Quote
I think you quoted the wrong person, 2boobs1cup.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
|
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
71
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:52:33 -
[121] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i too want to see youtube video of blown up machariel/vindi and logi fleet in highsec Just wait 5 more years. FunGu Arsten is planning. Or should we say,.. hes planning to kill his own fleet because hes a incursion FC. And then show us on the forums that incursioners arent safe and the isks we make in highsec incursions is balanced. lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow. as for burning down a full hq fleet: get 4-5 logi alts, fly incursions for a couple of days on each. On one particular sunny afternoon get all logis in the fleet and stop repping in a TCRC, abandon wrecks when popped * bring in neutral tanked ROKH fit with salvager and tractorbeams Collect billions - while you rep yourself - when done colllecting free loot, align out and when the rokh is taking scrams warp out 4 -5 logis and sacrifice the hero rokh after you've stored loot in the logis. \O/ see some chat channels close on you while you count the isk. Thanks for posting how you would do it. I can see that you agree the risk is pretty much non existant, because this approach ... fully legitimate ... is a one trick pony ... ... which needs a huge amount of investment for a one time thing. Any other ideas that could actually have an impact?
As i said, it's possible if you coordinate, its possible if you want to risk it. The "you cant do it reply" is all i was counter arguing.
however, if you want to do it with pure gank power. use Alpha and do it inside the site. many ganks have failed because they gank on the gates. (added: with catalysts and talos, the logis can rep the first volley off and walk away with no losses while concord cleans up the baddies)
Inside: sansha dps + gank dps= alot of confused logis + overwelming damage on the field.
At this point you need to look at how easy does ganking have to be - how are you going to collect the 2-3+ bil that will drop per battleship?
Making a comment with "see you agree that there is little risk" makes you look like you are ignoring everything said before in this thread... read my previous posts : incursions are risk free, but you CAN still do something as a player if you choose to act. ( the same way mission runners aren't safe, the same way any other player isn't safe in highsec)
SO back to you, how much effort do you wish to put into popping loot piniatas... |
2Sonas1Cup
84
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:59:27 -
[122] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote: lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.
That's what I do, because I don't see it changing. Fun fact, the more people getting on the "milk the cow" bandwagon, the lesser the income will be because the number of sites at the same time is limited. No more than 15 HQ fleet (this would already be lower isk/hours because of the delay to get another site would start showing up) will ever be able to get a payout at the same time. 600 character can effectively max it out. If everybody were to put their bling ship where their mouth is, everybody would constantly get contested and chance are incursion would be in "respawn" mode more often after episode of rage popping moms. Reminds me of how the griefers raged about the goons for killing their moms. With the amount of traction threads like this get, I can't understand why no-one was ever able to motivate 40 dudes to go run a 100+ million isk/hours fleet while also raining on someone else's parade at least partially by stealing some of the best sites. Then make that 80 dudes and you start to slowdown everybody because sites are not insta-respawning and you also pose a thread to the mom. Hell you can make it a bit more risky by even solo by pre-loading TCRC sites. A good group will get over it but it's still a tighter spot then smooth sailing the original site from scratch.
There used to be couple people back then when isbox was a thing. But still there are plenty of sites and most of the times more than 1 incursion just in highsec.
Most recent one is a guy with 40 nightmares, but hes just one more fleet and rarely runs anymore. It is just absurd the amount of multitasking and setup you need to do it solo without keybroadcasting isbox feature.
You also can't possibly believe you would solo contest another fleet and win with nightmares do you? ^^ |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3337
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 13:59:57 -
[123] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.
Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions. Except that traders are risking billions, because trading is a PvP activity. You're not a trader it seems. Traders can't predict what will happen, unlike incursion runners. Ive done quite a bit of trading in my time. I still do a little, but have cut way down due to the repetitious spreadsheet nature of the activity. Although the trader does not know exactly what will happen, its almost a given that the margin will not disappear in the few hours between the buy order and the sell order. I have never lost money on a station trade cycle.
Incursions are also PvP in that you have to contest sites. Ive been in several fleets where we got zero from a site due to the actions of other players.
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Aladar Dangerface
Zebra Corp The Bastion
156
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:00:34 -
[124] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Aladar Dangerface wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy. Take the tinfoil hat off please, no one is saying everyone should move to null/low/wh space, they are saying 'why should they earn less isk while risking more than someone earning a lot of isk while risking very little'. EVE is based on risk vs reward which is why people hate on incursions and if you actually read what people are saying you would know this already. Try reading the subject line of the OP. The "tin foil hat" reference is tired, and worn. I have read the OP first line, the discussion has moved on from merley 'Ending HighSec Incurions'
However if you want me to go all the way back i will; Ending incusrions would be really bad for the game, people in high sec should be able to earn isk, however someone should be able to earn more if they are willing to put more at risk.
The balance is out of line, its as simple as that and if your that much of a pompus asshat to realise this then i can give you a great example:
I used to live in wh space, i used to run C3 anoms in a 1 bill tengu, i earned about as much as an incrusion runner earns HOWEVER the risk factor involved in what i used to do compaired to running incursions is far higher (i never lost my tengu but there were several attempts to kill it and i have seen many other players lose them).
Do you understand now why it is imbalanced or are you just one of these 3 year olds that wont listent to reason what so ever?
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I'm already following you.
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21890
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:04:12 -
[125] - Quote
I did not write "see you agree". Don't put words in my mouth.
Okay so you say alpha can do it. That's right.
This brings up the next questions:
Is it worth it enough to fund another run? (loot mechanics apply of course) Is it actually disrupting the activity?
Because one trick ponies don't count. Shooting down one ship doesn't count either, as it doesn't disrupt the activity.
I'll just ignore the rest, because you will just put more words into my mouth.
Thanks!
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1724
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:05:39 -
[126] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
There used to be couple people back then when isbox was a thing. But still there are plenty of sites and most of the times more than 1 incursion just in highsec.
Most recent one is a guy with 40 nightmares, but hes just one more fleet and rarely runs anymore. It is just absurd the amount of multitasking and setup you need to do it solo without keybroadcasting isbox feature.
You also can't possibly believe you would solo contest another fleet and win with nightmares do you? ^^
I never said you had to solo it. Why do you insist on being able to give trouble or at least slow down a fleet of 40 by your own self? How hard is it to form your own fleet with actual player instead of trying to do it all by yourself?
I guess the incursion runners friends are just as OP as the CFC's friends.
We shoud nerf friends. That way, no one would see the mad ISK of incursion. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21890
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:08:46 -
[127] - Quote
This thread should be changed intk ...
What can we do to continuously disrupt the activity of incursion runners?
That would put it into a better view.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1724
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:10:14 -
[128] - Quote
Aladar Dangerface wrote:
However if you want me to go all the way back i will; Ending incusrions would be really bad for the game, people in high sec should be able to earn isk, however someone should be able to earn more if they are willing to put more at risk.
Fun fact, the incursion runners making the most ISK also put more at risk than the ones putting less. Get a low bling fleet and compare their income to a full blinged out fleet and you will see putting more at risk affect the total payout.
What you want is not "more at risk" but "same at more risk". |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
427
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:12:17 -
[129] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Aladar Dangerface wrote:
However if you want me to go all the way back i will; Ending incusrions would be really bad for the game, people in high sec should be able to earn isk, however someone should be able to earn more if they are willing to put more at risk.
Fun fact, the incursion runners making the most ISK also put more at risk than the ones putting less. Get a low bling fleet and compare their income to a full blinged out fleet and you will see putting more at risk affect the total payout. What you want is not "more at risk" but "same at more risk".
what risk?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1724
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:17:29 -
[130] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aladar Dangerface wrote:
However if you want me to go all the way back i will; Ending incusrions would be really bad for the game, people in high sec should be able to earn isk, however someone should be able to earn more if they are willing to put more at risk.
Fun fact, the incursion runners making the most ISK also put more at risk than the ones putting less. Get a low bling fleet and compare their income to a full blinged out fleet and you will see putting more at risk affect the total payout. What you want is not "more at risk" but "same at more risk". what risk?
Ganks, fail logi, falling asleep. The same stuff as miners, freighter, mission runners. The 6 bill ship still has to be in space to earn any ISK and LP. The fact that very few people try to gank those 120k EHP piniata is not the fault of the dude flying the ship in the first place. Hell you can even know where they are via the game interface instead of having the camp a gate waiting for them.
If there was no risk like you imply, nobody would ever lose their ships. The risk might be low but it's still there. |
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2Sonas1Cup
84
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:23:56 -
[131] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:I did not write what you posted. Don't put words in my mouth.
Okay so you say alpha can do it. That's right.
This brings up the next questions:
Is it worth it enough to fund another run? (loot mechanics apply of course) Is it actually disrupting the activity?
Because one trick ponies don't count. Shooting down one ship doesn't count either, as it doesn't disrupt the activity.
I'll just ignore the rest, because you will just put more words into my mouth.
Thanks!
Things that happen after that one sad gank:
They all get concord Victim goes to jita and reships Fleet finishes site and warps to next one Everyone laughs on comms and grabs another beer
Not to mention that maybe just maybe they will lose more than the victim himself. Because to alpha a battleship fast enough before logis lock him you need some serious alpha, not just 3 catalysts if you know what I mean.
That is also ignoring the possibility of gankers being shot by the incursion fleet itself as soon as they turn red. So it's kind of a one guns cycle chance for that alpha, NOT until concord spawns.
Anyway, its just like you said: "I'll just ignore the rest .." |
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
71
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:25:18 -
[132] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aladar Dangerface wrote:
However if you want me to go all the way back i will; Ending incusrions would be really bad for the game, people in high sec should be able to earn isk, however someone should be able to earn more if they are willing to put more at risk.
Fun fact, the incursion runners making the most ISK also put more at risk than the ones putting less. Get a low bling fleet and compare their income to a full blinged out fleet and you will see putting more at risk affect the total payout. What you want is not "more at risk" but "same at more risk". what risk? Ganks, fail logi, falling asleep. The same stuff as miners, freighter, mission runners. The 6 bill ship still has to be in space to earn any ISK and LP. The fact that very few people try to gank those 120k EHP piniata is not the fault of the dude flying the ship in the first place. Hell you can even know where they are via the game interface instead of having the camp a gate waiting for them. If there was no risk like you imply, nobody would ever lose their ships. The risk might be low but it's still there.
its 175-200k ehp.... unless you are a scrub and don't overload... |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
427
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:27:13 -
[133] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aladar Dangerface wrote:
However if you want me to go all the way back i will; Ending incusrions would be really bad for the game, people in high sec should be able to earn isk, however someone should be able to earn more if they are willing to put more at risk.
Fun fact, the incursion runners making the most ISK also put more at risk than the ones putting less. Get a low bling fleet and compare their income to a full blinged out fleet and you will see putting more at risk affect the total payout. What you want is not "more at risk" but "same at more risk". what risk? Ganks, fail logi, falling asleep. The same stuff as miners, freighter, mission runners. The 6 bill ship still has to be in space to earn any ISK and LP. The fact that very few people try to gank those 120k EHP piniata is not the fault of the dude flying the ship in the first place. Hell you can even know where they are via the game interface instead of having the camp a gate waiting for them.
"falling asleep" you just made that up because you didnt have anything else to add.
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21890
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:28:43 -
[134] - Quote
It's weird ... I thought you two were on the same side.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1724
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:31:38 -
[135] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aladar Dangerface wrote:
However if you want me to go all the way back i will; Ending incusrions would be really bad for the game, people in high sec should be able to earn isk, however someone should be able to earn more if they are willing to put more at risk.
Fun fact, the incursion runners making the most ISK also put more at risk than the ones putting less. Get a low bling fleet and compare their income to a full blinged out fleet and you will see putting more at risk affect the total payout. What you want is not "more at risk" but "same at more risk". what risk? Ganks, fail logi, falling asleep. The same stuff as miners, freighter, mission runners. The 6 bill ship still has to be in space to earn any ISK and LP. The fact that very few people try to gank those 120k EHP piniata is not the fault of the dude flying the ship in the first place. Hell you can even know where they are via the game interface instead of having the camp a gate waiting for them. "falling asleep" you just made that up because you didnt have anything else to add.
I've seen ships blowing up without a single broadcast being sent. I assumed they were asleep. Wanking to **** on second screen if you prefer or just call it inattention. Fact is, it happens. |
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
72
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:37:04 -
[136] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Solecist Project wrote:I did not write what you posted. Don't put words in my mouth.
Okay so you say alpha can do it. That's right.
This brings up the next questions:
Is it worth it enough to fund another run? (loot mechanics apply of course) Is it actually disrupting the activity?
Because one trick ponies don't count. Shooting down one ship doesn't count either, as it doesn't disrupt the activity.
I'll just ignore the rest, because you will just put more words into my mouth.
Thanks! Things that happen after that one sad gank: They all get concord Victim goes to jita and reships Fleet finishes site and warps to next one Everyone laughs on comms and grabs another beer Not to mention that maybe just maybe they will lose more than the victim himself. Because to alpha a battleship fast enough before logis lock him you need some serious alpha, not just 3 catalysts if you know what I mean. That is also ignoring the possibility of gankers being shot by the incursion fleet itself as soon as they turn red. So it's kind of a one guns cycle chance for that alpha, NOT until concord spawns. Anyway, its just like you said: "I'll just ignore the rest .."
the problem with "how do i disrupt incursions" is simply this: you want to nearly grief players for doing game content as you dont want them to run said content... ontop of this you want to do it without real reprecussions( is this writting correctly?)
your war against the incursions is going to start with 1) making ganking easier 2) not having offgrid boosters 3) making your one character reach supersayan lvls of alpha.
in all honnesty i'm done with this thread, - OP: you do not want to find friends, put ships into the concord sacrifice machine while disrupting 40 'semi-organized" players that have been working together in a community with clear structure and ship docterines. - you dont want to find friends and go head to head with these 'carebears" - you dont want to use said friends to finish off incursions in highsec so nobody can run them...
I agree that incursions are riskfree in pve, and that risk vs reward isn't favorable to ganking but isn't this what everybody has been asking for??? I remember the cries when ganking was to easy, i remember the cries when ganking was to hard...
you have been given answers beat them at their own game, or sacrifice ships to the concordgrinders - or train 60day alts and make eve news with logi spy infiltrations
The tears are too much atm, if only you could load them into a barrel and shoot it. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21891
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:39:49 -
[137] - Quote
Wow you come with a lot of bullshit ...
There is no way of disrupting incursion fleets properly. Anything else in space can be disrupted.
Your answers are worth nothing, because they aren't viable.
At best you have proven even more that it's not possible to properly disrupt their activities.
So thanks for nothing and let's hope people find a way to get rid of you lot.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
72
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:41:17 -
[138] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:It's weird ... I thought you two were on the same side. thats your problem man, you think there are sides...
there is only facts =/
incursions are easy, little to no risk ganking is easy, you balance your risk vs the reward
make an educated guess to how much your ganking potential income is.
> beeing able to gank or beeing able to do it none stop is a game that got nerfed/discussed years ago.. and here we are looking at tears of the " highsec has to be safer" aftermatch |
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
72
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:42:41 -
[139] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Wow you come with a lot of bullshit ...
There is no way of disrupting incursion fleets properly. Anything else in space can be disrupted.
Your answers are worth nothing, because they aren't viable.
At best you have proven even more that it's not possible to properly disrupt their activities.
So thanks for nothing and let's hope people find a way to get rid of you lot.
your view of "disrupting" is off by about 20 ships - its clear you can't muster them together.
Do you even EVE bro? |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21891
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:45:19 -
[140] - Quote
lol *facedesk*
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21891
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:46:49 -
[141] - Quote
Btw OP ... there's a swimsuit contest in C&P ......
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1725
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:52:15 -
[142] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:lol *facedesk*
You can't interrupt a fleet of 40 so you choose to band your head on a desk instead of finding friends willing to mess with incursionners. Your call I guess. |
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
75
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:54:17 -
[143] - Quote
I think its interesting to postulate what ccp would think of this.
If they nerf the insane isk incursion runners can make, some will cry and leave. But they nerfed IsoBoxing and same thing, they still did it.
Now would ccp care if even dare say 25% of all incursioners unsubbed? Wait for it....
THEY ALL PLEX ANYWAYS.
Now i am in economics 202 so i get someone paid for plex blah blah blah, yet still, those incursioners ARENT PUTTING THEIR REAL LIFE CASH INTO CCP.
So why WOULD ccp care if they balanced the insane isk they can make with basically zero risk (aside from falling asleep like some bear pointed out lmao)
Seriously, if ccp nerfs hisec incurion isk to make it in line with risk/reward and some bears cry and stop plexing their alts, i dont think ccps bottom line would be affected at all. If anything it would please the masses/rest of eve. |
Hipqo
Project AIice Whatever.
96
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:54:51 -
[144] - Quote
Form a new corp, kinda like "CODE" but focus on incursion pilots and go out and ruin they're day. If you do this enough, the meta will change, because they players will be forced to change it.
Never ending wardecs, continuous harrasment of incursion fleets, bumping, ganking and tons of tears! It would be beautiful!!
If you think incursion pilots needs more risk, create it for them, as you dont seem to be the only one here with that thought.
A life is best lived, to not step into your grave in a well preserved body. Instead, to slide in side ways, all battered and bruised, screamming, "Holy SH**! What a ride!"
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21892
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 14:58:53 -
[145] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Solecist Project wrote:lol *facedesk* You can't interrupt a fleet of 40 so you choose to band your head on a desk instead of finding friends willing to mess with incursionners. Your call I guess. *doublefacedesk*
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1725
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 15:02:15 -
[146] - Quote
Hipqo wrote:Form a new corp, kinda like "CODE" but focus on incursion pilots and go out and ruin they're day. If you do this enough, the meta will change, because they players will be forced to change it.
Never ending wardecs, continuous harrasment of incursion fleets, bumping, ganking and tons of tears! It would be beautiful!!
If you think incursion pilots needs more risk, create it for them, as you dont seem to be the only one here with that thought.
Wardeccing does not work as they are not in corps or just shell corps.
Harassement is stupid. You either punch big or go home.
Bumping is kinda silly as you will ahve a hard time bumping the actual elements that would stop a fleet (logi). Your best bet is the FC if he is running a vindi/nightmare.
Ganking require more people than most seem to be willing to get together. |
Joan Miles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 15:15:03 -
[147] - Quote
All those tears and troll yelling because some people make ISK running incursions instead of, errmm I don't know, farming sleeper escalations in some safe blue corner of New Eden? Wow... just wow...
It's one thing asking for something to change because it negatively affects the game (or your gameplay). Asking for something to change however, because other people profit of it... That, my friends, takes some serious SPACE BAWLS ! |
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
180
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 15:15:29 -
[148] - Quote
just have concord develop a way to stop incursion appearing in highsec. then all incursions will be forced into lowsec and any high system connected to it. that way to keep the cash cow flowing, you gotta risk a little in lowsec |
Sugar Smacks
State War Academy Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 15:28:58 -
[149] - Quote
Should make the sec status of the system a modifier of the incursion payout.
The higher the sec the incursion the lower the payout. |
Sugar Smacks
State War Academy Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 15:37:29 -
[150] - Quote
Joan Miles wrote:All those tears and troll yelling because some people make ISK running incursions instead of, errmm I don't know, farming sleeper escalations in some safe blue corner of New Eden? Wow... just wow...
It's one thing asking for something to change because it negatively affects the game (or your gameplay). Asking for something to change however, because other people profit of it... That, my friends, takes some serious SPACE BAWLS !
I'm pretty sure the arugement is if this is how you accumulate money to pay for plex, then you aren't ever going to be really technically unsafe playing.
Meaning you'r whole playstyle revolves around maximizing your income while minimizing your risk.
This wouldn't matter for most games but a game like Eve probably shouldn't have an easy mode.
Devs should really ask themselves the worth of these as by pulling players into this guaranteed safe income, they pull from all the unsafe areas people actually pvped in. On top of that most of these people are using the income to PLEX their accounts. Meaning this loud voice really isn't bringing any income into the game.
I am pretty sure people are all for PLEX, and being able to do it only in Hisec, but 3 hours a month? Seriously? |
|
Cervix Thumper
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 16:00:28 -
[151] - Quote
nope leave them as they are... I haven't participated in many but had a good time while I did. Nothing wrong with them |
Daerrol
Furtherance.
130
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 16:04:41 -
[152] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:I think its interesting to postulate what ccp would think of this.
If they nerf the insane isk incursion runners can make, some will cry and leave. But they nerfed IsoBoxing and same thing, they still did it.
Now would ccp care if even dare say 25% of all incursioners unsubbed? Wait for it....
THEY ALL PLEX ANYWAYS.
Now i am in economics 202 so i get someone paid for plex blah blah blah, yet still, those incursioners ARENT PUTTING THEIR REAL LIFE CASH INTO CCP.
So why WOULD ccp care if they balanced the insane isk they can make with basically zero risk (aside from falling asleep like some bear pointed out lmao)
Seriously, if ccp nerfs hisec incurion isk to make it in line with risk/reward and some bears cry and stop plexing their alts, i dont think ccps bottom line would be affected at all. If anything it would please the masses/rest of eve. I was going to write a long reply to this inane statement but I'll keep it short. You realize CCP makes more money off accounts that are activated via plex than those which are paying a subscription fee, yes? |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
396
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 16:11:44 -
[153] - Quote
It is important to note that it is the players who have made Incursions as profitable as they are (or are at least perceived to be). I stopped running Incursions during one of the first inter-community disputes because I would log out at the end of a night all set-up in the system the community I was running with was focussed on, log back in the next evening and find that the Incursion was over and have to move my stuff to the next focus... Net risk, perhaps 40+ jumps with moderately high value ships and modules, 20+ jumps in capsule or abalative capsule armour (aka: shuttle); net gain... nil.
That is what the Incursion Income would show for many of those attempting to run them if not for the agreements the players themselves set up. Players defined the period that each Incursion should remain active, players push for any no-contest rules (and incidentally, contests can really drastically reduce the income even if you do get into fleets before the incursion "moves"). The potential payout was certainly defined by CCP, but it is the players who have redefined the percentage of it which is available to them.
The sense of entitlement which flavoured every thread requesting a buff when the motherships were being popped regularly was amusing but that it is players who have changed the balance is important. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
427
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 16:55:49 -
[154] - Quote
Daerrol wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:I think its interesting to postulate what ccp would think of this.
If they nerf the insane isk incursion runners can make, some will cry and leave. But they nerfed IsoBoxing and same thing, they still did it.
Now would ccp care if even dare say 25% of all incursioners unsubbed? Wait for it....
THEY ALL PLEX ANYWAYS.
Now i am in economics 202 so i get someone paid for plex blah blah blah, yet still, those incursioners ARENT PUTTING THEIR REAL LIFE CASH INTO CCP.
So why WOULD ccp care if they balanced the insane isk they can make with basically zero risk (aside from falling asleep like some bear pointed out lmao)
Seriously, if ccp nerfs hisec incurion isk to make it in line with risk/reward and some bears cry and stop plexing their alts, i dont think ccps bottom line would be affected at all. If anything it would please the masses/rest of eve. I was going to write a long reply to this inane statement but I'll keep it short. You realize CCP makes more money off accounts that are activated via plex than those which are paying a subscription fee, yes? If PLEX were to lose liquidity or worse crash in vaoue, no one would PLEX for ISK.
How can ccp make money from people using isk for plex? People buy plex with rl cash so they make money from people who spend on plex not incursuon runners or freeplayers
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
75
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:09:36 -
[155] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Daerrol wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:I think its interesting to postulate what ccp would think of this.
If they nerf the insane isk incursion runners can make, some will cry and leave. But they nerfed IsoBoxing and same thing, they still did it.
Now would ccp care if even dare say 25% of all incursioners unsubbed? Wait for it....
THEY ALL PLEX ANYWAYS.
Now i am in economics 202 so i get someone paid for plex blah blah blah, yet still, those incursioners ARENT PUTTING THEIR REAL LIFE CASH INTO CCP.
So why WOULD ccp care if they balanced the insane isk they can make with basically zero risk (aside from falling asleep like some bear pointed out lmao)
Seriously, if ccp nerfs hisec incurion isk to make it in line with risk/reward and some bears cry and stop plexing their alts, i dont think ccps bottom line would be affected at all. If anything it would please the masses/rest of eve. I was going to write a long reply to this inane statement but I'll keep it short. You realize CCP makes more money off accounts that are activated via plex than those which are paying a subscription fee, yes? If PLEX were to lose liquidity or worse crash in vaoue, no one would PLEX for ISK. How can ccp make money from people using isk for plex? People buy plex with rl cash so they make money from people who spend on plex not incursuon runners or freeplayers
the same way ships are free if you mine the ore |
Gilan Isana
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:13:06 -
[156] - Quote
Sansha Incursions will be dead soon anyway, so its a mute argument.
Risk Vs Reward will be more balanced when they switch to Drifter/Seeker incursions. . . . . . . .
|
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
2537
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:16:30 -
[157] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.
Highsec players deserve content, too, you know.... And it's not even like there's no risk. Incursions aren't easy at any level.
That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...
[#savethelance]
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21894
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:19:31 -
[158] - Quote
If you think fully predictable content is hard ........
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1728
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:19:45 -
[159] - Quote
Jarod Garamonde wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. Highsec players deserve content, too, you know.... And it's not even like there's no risk. Incursions aren't easy at any level.
Content would still be available even if the reward was 1/1000000th of what it is. It's not a "content" question at all. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15682
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:22:04 -
[160] - Quote
Jarod Garamonde wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. Highsec players deserve content, too, you know.... And it's not even like there's no risk. Incursions aren't easy at any level.
Yea they are. All you need is a few logi and a smattering of battleships and a loki none of which are hard to fly. By all means keep the content is the payout that is the problem.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
|
Mario Putzo
1266
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:23:26 -
[161] - Quote
Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21894
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:24:56 -
[162] - Quote
Reminds me of all the carebears who said ...
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY IT'S ABOUT THE COMMUNITY
... CCP lowered the income and boom, lies exposed as such.
No I don't recall what they did. It doesn't matter at this point.
Greedy people will not stop telling lies just to make or save money.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6615
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:26:25 -
[163] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.
If you remove or curtail highsec incursions, how are all those nullseccers going to make money while their mains bubble camps the gates 23/7?
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21894
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:26:48 -
[164] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms. You can make 800ish millions in three hours, reliably, in null? In absolute safety with CONCORD protection? Every day?
Yeah, right.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15684
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:36:19 -
[165] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms.
Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec?
As for that "#1 source of isk" tidbit you are quoting it wrong. While null activities inject the most isk income levels for ratting is far below that of incursions. An incursion pilot will earn upwards of twice as much as your average anom ratter in null.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1728
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:44:38 -
[166] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms. Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec?
Somehow you also have to lose that mad isk no? Not that it's a balancing factor for the current income but what do people do with all those ISK beside buy another incursion boat after they managed to lose one? After the 800 ish mill for their PLEX and a let's say 400 mill as "insurance policy" in case they lose a boat, what do people spend all that on? |
Mario Putzo
1266
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 17:56:36 -
[167] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms. Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec? As for that "#1 source of isk" tidbit you are quoting it wrong. While null activities inject the most isk income levels for ratting is far below that of incursions. An incursion pilot will earn upwards of twice as much as your average anom ratter in null.
Make ISK in HS, go to LS/NS/WH to PVP. Not really a hard concept. There is nothing saying you have to live in space to use that space. vOv.
Also I am simply paraphrasing the numbers CCP showed at fanfest, where Nullsec Bounties represent the highest portion of ISK entering the game. Didn't say anything about individual incomes. So not sure what your point is in that regard. Incursions are pretty dank, but most of it is from LP, which isn't liquid ISK that ISK comes from other players who get it from sources like ratting, anoms and missions, with NS being the largest faucet by a sizable margin...fancy that. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21895
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:03:30 -
[168] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms. Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec? As for that "#1 source of isk" tidbit you are quoting it wrong. While null activities inject the most isk income levels for ratting is far below that of incursions. An incursion pilot will earn upwards of twice as much as your average anom ratter in null. Make ISK in HS, go to LS/NS/WH to PVP. Not really a hard concept. There is nothing saying you have to live in space to use that space. vOv. Also I am simply paraphrasing the numbers CCP showed at fanfest, where Nullsec Bounties represent the highest portion of ISK entering the game. Didn't say anything about individual incomes. So not sure what your point is in that regard. Incursions are pretty dank, but most of it is from LP, which isn't liquid ISK that ISK comes from other players who get it from sources like ratting, anoms and missions...fancy that. The game has no zones. One can fight anywhere. To say that people should leave highsec if they want combat is nonsense.
If CCP wanted that, they would have removed player aggression from highsec. Which would be a rather daft thing to do.
So your "concept" pretty much is only imaginary.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Mario Putzo
1268
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:06:52 -
[169] - Quote
Solecist Projec wrote: The game has no zones. One can fight anywhere. To say that people should leave highsec if they want combat is nonsense.
If CCP wanted that, they would have removed player aggression from highsec. Which would be a rather daft thing to do.
So your "concept" pretty much is only imaginary.
True but combat in HS is needlessly complex. I mean I can gank, but that is a pretty shallow combat experience, I can wardec someone but they tend to just dock up, or I can just go to areas of space where I am more likely to find folks who are more likely to desire a combat engagement, why buy milk from the store when you can just go to the cow and get it for free. |
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
77
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:07:37 -
[170] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms. Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec? As for that "#1 source of isk" tidbit you are quoting it wrong. While null activities inject the most isk income levels for ratting is far below that of incursions. An incursion pilot will earn upwards of twice as much as your average anom ratter in null. Make ISK in HS, go to LS/NS/WH to PVP. Not really a hard concept. There is nothing saying you have to live in space to use that space. vOv. Also I am simply paraphrasing the numbers CCP showed at fanfest, where Nullsec Bounties represent the highest portion of ISK entering the game. Didn't say anything about individual incomes. So not sure what your point is in that regard. Incursions are pretty dank, but most of it is from LP, which isn't liquid ISK that ISK comes from other players who get it from sources like ratting, anoms and missions, with NS being the largest faucet by a sizable margin...fancy that.
you mean 200mil liquid isk + 42k LP isnt alot in highsec? per hour .. on 1 account - no scouts, no rent, no sov costs, all the highsec markets at your feet....
there's some crybabyies in here QQing about incursions but you can't ignore the hard facts of incursionmilk
EDIT/ADD: the problem with ccp numbers is that they're comparing "total isk from ALL null anoms" vs ' 3 average highsec incursions" > the isk that an individual player can make per hour is the problem with incursions, and we haven't even talked about skillpoints needed (they're low) - all in highsec....
but then again, :D i'm making 250mil/hr right now |
|
Mario Putzo
1268
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:10:51 -
[171] - Quote
FunGu Arsten wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms. Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec? As for that "#1 source of isk" tidbit you are quoting it wrong. While null activities inject the most isk income levels for ratting is far below that of incursions. An incursion pilot will earn upwards of twice as much as your average anom ratter in null. Make ISK in HS, go to LS/NS/WH to PVP. Not really a hard concept. There is nothing saying you have to live in space to use that space. vOv. Also I am simply paraphrasing the numbers CCP showed at fanfest, where Nullsec Bounties represent the highest portion of ISK entering the game. Didn't say anything about individual incomes. So not sure what your point is in that regard. Incursions are pretty dank, but most of it is from LP, which isn't liquid ISK that ISK comes from other players who get it from sources like ratting, anoms and missions, with NS being the largest faucet by a sizable margin...fancy that. you mean 200mil liquid isk + 42k LP isnt alot in highsec? per hour .. on 1 account - no scouts, no rent, no sov costs, all the highsec markets at your feet.... there's some crybabyies in here QQing about incursions but you can't ignore the hard facts of incursionmilk
And it is perfectly possible and acceptable for any pilot to engage in these activities. So again I am not sure what the issue is. If you want to suckle on the teet you only need to open your mouth. Elsewise its nothing but whining. If you want to live in 0.0 and only play in 0.0 cool, not everything is fair in EVE. Nothing at all stopping you from heading to HS every now and then to milk the cow. Seems like a bad case of entitlement to me. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15684
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:12:13 -
[172] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Somehow you also have to lose that mad isk no? Not that it's a balancing factor for the current income but what do people do with all those ISK beside buy another incursion boat after they managed to lose one? After the 800 ish mill for their PLEX and a let's say 400 mill as "insurance policy" in case they lose a boat, what do people spend all that on?
I have often wondered that myself. Only answer I have is there are people who suffer from dragon curse.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15684
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:15:27 -
[173] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
And it is perfectly possible and acceptable for any pilot to engage in these activities. So again I am not sure what the issue is. If you want to suckle on the teet you only need to open your mouth. Elsewise its nothing but whining. If you want to live in 0.0 and only play in 0.0 cool, not everything is fair in EVE. Nothing at all stopping you from heading to HS every now and then to milk the cow. Seems like a bad case of entitlement to me.
The problem is that you are not getting rewarded for taking on more risk and effort. If CCP wants smaller corps and alliances out in nullsec then they are going to have to make it worth moving out there.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21896
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:16:14 -
[174] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Solecist Projec wrote: The game has no zones. One can fight anywhere. To say that people should leave highsec if they want combat is nonsense.
If CCP wanted that, they would have removed player aggression from highsec. Which would be a rather daft thing to do.
So your "concept" pretty much is only imaginary.
True but combat in HS is needlessly complex. I mean I can gank, but that is a pretty shallow combat experience, I can wardec someone but they tend to just dock up, or I can just go to areas of space where I am more likely to find folks who are more likely to desire a combat engagement, why buy milk from the store when you can just go to the cow and get it for free. I agree on that. The biggest fun I ever had in highsec was as station grid bouncing, facpo evading -10, with people on my ass and constant entertaining of the masses with kills or chat.
(don't believe a single word people say when they whine about the facpo)
That's not being offered anywhere else though. Lowsec is rather boring and too easy and nullsec has bubbles, which I hate to the bone.
Anyhow that's far off topic.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Nick Bete
The Scope Gallente Federation
330
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:17:45 -
[175] - Quote
Yawn, yet another of the stupid, trollish, and never ending nerf high sec income threads.
No, OP. CCP has the numbers and a team that monitors the economic health of the game. If adjustments were needed then they would be made based off those numbers and not your selfish agenda.
Hope this moronic rant gets locked for being redundant, non-constructive, trollish and inflammatory. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21896
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:22:14 -
[176] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms. Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec? As for that "#1 source of isk" tidbit you are quoting it wrong. While null activities inject the most isk income levels for ratting is far below that of incursions. An incursion pilot will earn upwards of twice as much as your average anom ratter in null. Make ISK in HS, go to LS/NS/WH to PVP. Not really a hard concept. There is nothing saying you have to live in space to use that space. vOv. Also I am simply paraphrasing the numbers CCP showed at fanfest, where Nullsec Bounties represent the highest portion of ISK entering the game. Didn't say anything about individual incomes. So not sure what your point is in that regard. Incursions are pretty dank, but most of it is from LP, which isn't liquid ISK that ISK comes from other players who get it from sources like ratting, anoms and missions, with NS being the largest faucet by a sizable margin...fancy that. you mean 200mil liquid isk + 42k LP isnt alot in highsec? per hour .. on 1 account - no scouts, no rent, no sov costs, all the highsec markets at your feet.... there's some crybabyies in here QQing about incursions but you can't ignore the hard facts of incursionmilk And it is perfectly possible and acceptable for any pilot to engage in these activities. So again I am not sure what the issue is. If you want to suckle on the teet you only need to open your mouth. Elsewise its nothing but whining. If you want to live in 0.0 and only play in 0.0 cool, not everything is fair in EVE. Nothing at all stopping you from heading to HS every now and then to milk the cow. Seems like a bad case of entitlement to me. From my pov it's not the money, it's the lack of danger.
I believe for nullseccers it's not the money either, but people not playing there because they have no reason to.
THAT BEING SAID makes it look weird though, because it reduces most nullseccers to carebears.
This reminds me so much of all these morons who cry I HAVE POWERFULL NULLSEC FRIENDS when they are being ganked in highsec .............
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
920
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:29:55 -
[177] - Quote
Nick Bete wrote:Yawn, yet another of the stupid, trollish, and never ending nerf high sec income threads. No, OP. CCP has the numbers and a team that monitors the economic health of the game. If adjustments were needed then they would be made based off those numbers and not your selfish agenda. Hope this moronic rant gets locked for being redundant, non-constructive, trollish and inflammatory. CCP has the numbers alright and they know they are too high - see page 125 of the 2014 CSM minutes.
CCP is waiting to see If the nullsec changes pull people back out to live in null. If they stay in highsec sucking on the teat of risk-free incursion ISK, which likely most will as it is too easy, then incursion income should expect a visit from the Nerf Bat soon. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21897
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:32:22 -
[178] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Nick Bete wrote:Yawn, yet another of the stupid, trollish, and never ending nerf high sec income threads. No, OP. CCP has the numbers and a team that monitors the economic health of the game. If adjustments were needed then they would be made based off those numbers and not your selfish agenda. Hope this moronic rant gets locked for being redundant, non-constructive, trollish and inflammatory. CCP has the numbers alright and they know they are too high - see page 125 of the 2014 CSM minutes. CCP is waiting to see If the nullsec changes pull people back out to live in null. If they stay in highsec sucking on the teat of risk-free incursion ISK, which likely most will as it is too easy, then incursion income should expect a visit from the Nerf Bat soon. You know..... what if the issue really is that most nullseccers are actually carebears?
Then no matter the amount, things would never change, because people would be too scared to leave highsec anyway .....
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
FunGu Arsten
Fungu .Inc
77
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:38:45 -
[179] - Quote
Nick Bete wrote:Yawn, yet another of the stupid, trollish, and never ending nerf high sec income threads. No, OP. CCP has the numbers and a team that monitors the economic health of the game. If adjustments were needed then they would be made based off those numbers and not your selfish agenda. Hope this moronic rant gets locked for being redundant, non-constructive, trollish and inflammatory.
I dont want incursions nerfed or removed (they are fun at times) but i'm also aware the ccp does not have a clue how to read numbers. here is why:
average incursion "top 10" list :
incursion community moved 7-04-15 //14:07 incursion ended 10-04-15 //07:23
1Vxxxxxx 1.050.000LP- 5,2 bil isk 25,0bil isk 34,4bil isk 43,9bil isk 53,8bil isk 63,7bil isk 73,4bil isk 83,4bil isk 9Dxxxxxxxrd 589.680LP - 2,9 bil isk
So the top 10 have made on an individual lvl 5bil to nearly 3 bil in 2.5days doing incursions. there are plenty of other incursion - top ten lists - where #1: 1mil lp, #9 is 700-800k lp in the course of 3days of incursions..
you can always "read" statistics to make them look in your favor, ccp chooses to not touch incursions as they have little to no interest in putting development into it i guess... but the numbers are there for you to read if you join some fleets..
Though, putting 2-3 bil isk in your wallet in 3 days of highsec cross shooting is enough numbers you need...
(Personaly i'm netting 10bil/week if doing incursions on my highsec character)
added: that top 10 list is good for a total of 35bil in 2, 5 days... however if you take that the pilot with most lp hs been in all fleets then you can say the total net income from this community ahs to be
40 x 4.5 bil : 180 bil in 2,5 days... in one incursion. (take in mind that 35 bil of this is already in the top 10)
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21898
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:38:56 -
[180] - Quote
Aaand if I take that thought even further ... ... then the real issue is actually the isk centric way of thinking.
They have proven time and time again that income does not balance things out properly ... ... as can be seen through lowsec buffs/highsec nerfs.
Yet for some reason people believe that reducing incursion income will make a difference.
That's a funny viewpoint ... and completely invalidates every singke argument about income and how it makes people go here and there.
So ... what would drive more people to null is not raising their income ... ... or loweeing the income in highsec ... ... but making null safer than highsec.
Because then carebears would populate it.
YOU CAN HAVE THEM ALL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
|
Paranoid Loyd
4914
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:45:01 -
[181] - Quote
9/10 Nicely done
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
344
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:45:25 -
[182] - Quote
Quote: if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you!
WORD. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21898
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 18:58:06 -
[183] - Quote
lol WORD he says, not actually thinking about what he read ...
PLEASE go dec them with a properly sized corp and see what it brings.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Eru GoEller
State War Academy Caldari State
90
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 19:10:10 -
[184] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. I don't run incursions, but I have no issues with other players enjoying them, if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you! you know most incursion groups tell you not to bother joining if you are wardecced, your argument is pretty invalid, incursion groups are aware of how to avoid the little risk involved. So what there are still ways to attack them... Please enlighten us with your ways. Or more like, fail ways. When incursions started there were a lot of mechanics to explore people werent aware of, many fleets used to lose ships every now and then through some of these mechanics. But now its all said and done 90% of the risk is gone with very well known protective measures. Theres literally nothing that you can do about incursioners other than your regular gate ganking in between stages when people travel, even though you need a lot of planning, effort and pilots just to kill a single tanked battleship if all goes well. Even goons fail to stop incursioners, unless its a random afk guy off a station not in fleet or something. But thats not really the point of the thread anyway, and even if it was its something that doesnt happen and people dont bother with. You know something is wrong when null players have highsec incursions alts to make isks for their null pvp activities. Is that really the eve you want to play? So, you have no ability to form fleet and kill the mom when that's is possible? That's one hi-sec incursion down and if your lucky there are no other around. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
239
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 19:48:39 -
[185] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
And it is perfectly possible and acceptable for any pilot to engage in these activities. So again I am not sure what the issue is. If you want to suckle on the teet you only need to open your mouth. Elsewise its nothing but whining. If you want to live in 0.0 and only play in 0.0 cool, not everything is fair in EVE. Nothing at all stopping you from heading to HS every now and then to milk the cow. Seems like a bad case of entitlement to me.
The problem is that you are not getting rewarded for taking on more risk and effort. If CCP wants smaller corps and alliances out in nullsec then they are going to have to make it worth moving out there.
This is, of course, dead on. It's a sandbox - High Sec shouldn't be for making money so you can go spend it in areas that are for shooting at each other. This just results in the current syndrome where many areas are totally empty of content. All the sovereignty rebalances are for naught if you have secure, untouchable, incursion level income in high sec: why join up with something in null when the income is worse, you will be vulnerable all the time, and you have to defend or lose your holdings?
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2082
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 19:49:32 -
[186] - Quote
Oh look, it's this time of year again..... Where we hate on 'carebears' (because labelling them as such allows dehumanising them) who are organised, have learnt fleet tactics, use doctrine fits, and work in groups of real players, who aren't allowed to make a profit.
With regards to Isk Faucets, Incursions are one of the smaller categories so there is no inflation issue. The last economic figures released only 70 people at once could make an average income of 100 mil/hour. If people are earning more then that means that there is also dead time in there where people aren't running incursions, or are making zero income due to being contested (Hey look, there is option 1 to stop them making money, steal it from them yourself). WH selling to NPC orders and Null ratting are both VASTLY larger Isk Faucets.
With regards to low & null incursions, look at Vanguards and what CCP did to the allowed fleet size in low & null for them. Put pressure on CCP to apply the same fleet size change to all incursion sites in low & null. Remember high sec is 70% payout compared to low & null incursions already, and low has the revenant drop. So individual income on low & null incursions is fine, but the fleets need to be larger so the fact they use cheaper fits to minimise risk (Hey look, Null & Low seccers being risk adverse, who would have ever thought!) doesn't result in slower site times.
Other than that, HTFU and stop attacking people for being successful at EVE. |
P3ps1 Max
Hedion University Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 19:57:11 -
[187] - Quote
Some quick points:
LP payout can be capped.
Isk payout can't because it will turn into a prestige club rather than a community event for high end dungeons.
Last time I checked, having blues in a system in Null is pretty safe.
Stealth I want to assist my fighter drones?
|
Syrilian
Ascending Angels
68
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 19:58:07 -
[188] - Quote
EVE online...where even the forums are PVP. |
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 20:11:09 -
[189] - Quote
I'm pretty sure you guys could just kill them.
I don't run incursions and I never will. I think they're fine. Limiting someone's fun because you feel as if you are right about something abstract as balance in a video game is what's wrong in my opinion. The markets have already balanced out with the introduction of incursions and everyone is living their lives just fine. I feel as if you're shouting fire when there is no fire.
CCP has all the data. They know weather something is broken or not. Unfortunately, to keep good face, CCP has to listen to people who are children emotionally/mentally. Similar to a politician who wants to raise minimum wage so that a minority of people could benefit for only a temporary amount of time ignoring the majority who lose purchasing power (ie. quality of life goes down), increasing inflation, and making more people unemployed. This isn't just some theory. There's precedence. And it has always gone the same way.
Meanwhile, they're praised as heros and when everything finally catches up, the public blames whoever happens to be in office at the time. Funny how that works. All because of a populace that is uneducated with economics.
While I'm off topic, a better solution would be to tax people who make over $450k in a year 95% of their income above 450k. Because what may happen is people like that CEO from amazon might just slash his paycheck and reinvest it into the compnay, this way their workers could have air conditioning in their warehouses and not suffer from heat strokes. But hey, emotions. Personally, I believe people need to evolve past a currency based system and move on to some sort of manifest destiny where they're trying to help all humans out. But that's just fantasy.
Anyway, forgive me for the rant, I'm in a bad mood today. Regardless, I think incursions are fine. If they really do become a problem CCP will nerf them, but while I have been in the game, I haven't noticed an issue with people who do them. If that's all they do, that's because it's the only thing they find interesting in this game. You take their cake, they'll leave to get their cake else where. Not all of them would obviously and some would leave later rather than sooner. Regardless, CCP should know what's best for their company, fans, etc.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, I disagree with you. I think they're fine. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21901
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 20:22:56 -
[190] - Quote
Why do you connect fun with income? The fun should be shooting them and fleeting up ... ... not the amount of ISK you make.
That's the core issue. If CCP halved the income of incursions ... ... there might be a chance that only those run them ... ... who actually do it for the "challenge" (ha) !
Fun equalling income only exposes you as an uncaring greedy person.
And as Pedro pointed out it's CCP themselves who say payouts are too high.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
239
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 20:59:16 -
[191] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Other than that, HTFU and stop attacking people for being successful at EVE.
I'm pretty sure most of us don't measure success by trivial things like ISK or KB stats.
To me, the most successful people in the game are those who venture to lowsec, nullsec, or WH space, and take great risks in the name of high space adventure. There will be lossmails. Hilarity will ensue.
However, it is an injustice that these play styles can't support losses as well as Hi Sec can. That just doesn't make sense at all from any position. Areas with more risk should have more potential income available. They don't. Plant the seeds of content today by removing Hi Sec Incursions and adjusting L4s.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
596
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 21:03:14 -
[192] - Quote
I challenge CCP to put a moratorium on all hisec incursions for 3 months, and only allow lowsec and nullsec incursions. Then see how many of these hisec incursion runners have the balls to man up and run incursion in orher areas. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15690
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 21:18:06 -
[193] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:I challenge CCP to put a moratorium on all hisec incursions for 3 months, and only allow lowsec and nullsec incursions. Then see how many of these hisec incursion runners have the balls to man up and run incursion in orher areas.
Just reduce the payouts to 60mil/hr and watch all of these content lovers rant and rave over the loss of their isk printers.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1409
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 21:27:43 -
[194] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:I challenge CCP to put a moratorium on all hisec incursions for 3 months, and only allow lowsec and nullsec incursions. Then see how many of these hisec incursion runners have the balls to man up and run incursion in orher areas. What would that actually prove? If the point is that people prefer the safety of highsec, we already know that, else this thread wouldn't exist. |
Conrad Makbure
Trident Expedition
78
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 21:32:36 -
[195] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.
You need to take a break from EVE, dude. Incursions are a ...what?? Decease? Are you trying to say 'disease'? Your ranting is giving me a headache. No, there's nothing wrong with incursions. Give it up. |
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
91
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 21:40:59 -
[196] - Quote
I think CCP should remove 10 million skill points from the main of every person who starts a ranting thread like this. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
3807
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 22:03:43 -
[197] - Quote
Hmmm.... please bear with me as I know nothing of incursions (and red crosses in general, I prefer colored squares)...
What if CCP made incursions (or some of them at least) wildly unpredictable?
In N. of rats, strength, ewar, etc... Like -50% to +100% of the usual, randomly generated.
More risk, less boredom, larger fleets needed (for backup) so ISK/person dialled back a bit.
Makes sense?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1409
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 22:13:41 -
[198] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Hmmm.... please bear with me as I know nothing of incursions (and red crosses in general, I prefer colored squares)...
What if CCP made incursions (or some of them at least) wildly unpredictable?
In N. of rats, strength, ewar, etc... Like -50% to +100% of the usual, randomly generated.
More risk, less boredom, larger fleets needed (for backup) so ISK/person dialled back a bit.
Makes sense?
Incusrsions are balanced around a certain player count in each fleet and payouts fluctuate when you deviate from those set numbers. As such forcing more players to be in a fleet likely won't occur. There was some mild randomness when last I ran them but nothing worth noting, could be dialed up quite a bit IMHO.
The primary issue though, as with all PvE, is that it's designed to be an income source and thus routinely beaten with a few minimum investments of effort. It pays well because despite the low barrier, that barrier is still several times above most other PvE encounters.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12809
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 22:30:50 -
[199] - Quote
ITT: Carebears defending the golden-est goose of all. "Game balance? What's that? Don't touch my money printing mechanic!"
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
51
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 22:45:15 -
[200] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:WH selling to NPC orders and Null ratting are both VASTLY larger Isk Faucets. umm... Even if we assumed that 90% of all sold commodities were WH loot and 50% of all ratting bounties were from Null sec (which would be quite a claim), the term "VASTLY" seems inappropriate here. |
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Pelle Wittewoa
University of Caille Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 22:46:18 -
[201] - Quote
It makes you wonder why it is soo hard to get ppl to fleet up. Thats the core problem. The core reson isnt that easy to definy |
Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2257
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 23:25:30 -
[202] - Quote
The thing with incursions is, unless I have something surpemely backwards (which is entirely possible), they only pay out so much ISK to so many people. In the end, the amount of people getting rich off of incursions are few compared to the masses that are AFKtaring in 0.0 or running missions in Apancake or wherever it is they go these days. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2083
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 23:28:26 -
[203] - Quote
Violet Hurst wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:WH selling to NPC orders and Null ratting are both VASTLY larger Isk Faucets. umm...Even if we assumed that 90% of all sold commodities were WH loot and 50% of all ratting bounties were from Null sec (which would be quite a claim), the term "VASTLY" seems inappropriate here. EDIT: I don't have exact numbers handy at the moment, but when I look at the bar for agent mission payouts and consider the respective bounties using DPS as an example of highsec missions, that doesn't exactly leave much of the bounties bar for Nullsec ratters (or anyone else for that matter). EDIT2: DPS == Dread Pirate Scarlet Well over 50% of those bounty payouts are from Null according to some posts made in the German forums a while back, something like 75-80% of NPC kills are made in Null overall, the map can give a false idea because it's spread between over 3000 systems in Null and concentrated in a dozen or so systems in high on average. And given Null bounties are normally more than high sec bounties that gives them at least that large a slice of the pie. Dread Pirate Scarlet is NOT representative of the standard mission in the slightest. And I consider several trillian and 33% difference for WH loot to be worthy of the word vastly. Let alone the NPC Bounties.
So yes, Incursion Isk is not a significant contributor to any isk inflation. Though I wouldn't particularly object if the ratio was changed assuming concord isk at 1k LP to more LP. But when the Op of this thread outright lied about incursion income, and most of the 'nerf it' crowd are ignoring what the real average income is for an individual pilot, using the best case figure ignoring wait times.... Yea, I'm most definitely against any nerfs to it's overall income. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1409
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 23:30:35 -
[204] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Other than that, HTFU and stop attacking people for being successful at EVE. I'm pretty sure most of us don't measure success by trivial things like ISK or KB stats. To me, the most successful people in the game are those who venture to lowsec, nullsec, or WH space, and take great risks in the name of high space adventure. There will be lossmails. Hilarity will ensue. However, it is an injustice that these play styles can't support losses as well as Hi Sec can. That just doesn't make sense at all from any position. Areas with more risk should have more potential income available. They don't. Plant the seeds of content today by removing Hi Sec Incursions and adjusting L4s. Most areas with more risk do have greater income potentials if the numbers gathered by others around here are to be believed. The issue, which has always been and always likely will be, is the capacity to pursue maximum efficiency and likely go uninterrupted that highsec allows. If it were possible in other securities they would dominate highsec isk/hour.
Though reducing income has no bearing on loss sustainability when operating in an area where 0 losses is a real possibility. |
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
51
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 00:00:26 -
[205] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Well over 50% of those bounty payouts are from Null according to some posts made in the German forums a while back, something like 75-80% of NPC kills are made in Null overall, the map can give a false idea because it's spread between over 3000 systems in Null and concentrated in a dozen or so systems in high on average. And given Null bounties are normally more than high sec bounties that gives them at least that large a slice of the pie. Dread Pirate Scarlet is NOT representative of the standard mission in the slightest. And I consider several trillian and 33% difference for WH loot to be worthy of the word vastly. Let alone the NPC Bounties.
So yes, Incursion Isk is not a significant contributor to any isk inflation. Though I wouldn't particularly object if the ratio was changed assuming concord isk at 1k LP to more LP. But when the Op of this thread outright lied about incursion income, and most of the 'nerf it' crowd are ignoring what the real average income is for an individual pilot, using the best case figure ignoring wait times.... Yea, I'm most definitely against any nerfs to it's overall income.
Before i'm counted as a proponent of one side of this argument or the other, i'd like to point out that i haven't completely made up my mind yet and am currently just argueing Nevyn's point of incursions not being a noteworthy ISK faucet.
Speaking of which: 33% is vast while 20% is insignificant... that's an interesting scale. As to the real ratios of NPC bounties between the different security sectors i'll have to try and get myself some reliable numbers tomorrow, same goes for missions. If you could link your source for the 75-80% statement, i'd appreciate that.
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
483
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 00:26:55 -
[206] - Quote
Temporarily locked for a cleaning.
ISD Decoy
Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10807
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 00:52:40 -
[207] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms. Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec? As for that "#1 source of isk" tidbit you are quoting it wrong. While null activities inject the most isk income levels for ratting is far below that of incursions. An incursion pilot will earn upwards of twice as much as your average anom ratter in null.
This is the thing the "income deniers" will never understand, and you can see them try to deflect with that "well, null sec injects isk" thinking. It irritatingly stupid.
No one is saying that Incursions is injecting the most isk, hell there is a hard cap on how many people can run incursions of all types at one time. Null spews liquid isk because in Dominon CCP made the unwise idea of making anomalies the center of the systems military upgrade scheme when anoms are a poor choice for that.
The truth is that on an INDIVIDUAL LEVEL, high sec incursions are incredibly broken. Less so than other things maybe, but broken is broken.
And anyone can test if for themselves. Set up an incursion ship. Pick a community. Start counting from the time you waitlist/x up. Go for 4 hours. Calculate your isk per hour.
Thake the SAME HULL to sov null. Do pve there for 4 hours. Repeat this activity in both high and null over the course of a week to get your averages. Works the same in low and wormhole space, but I doubt you want to try a solo mach/vindi/nightmare in a wormhole.
Then post your results here, and then try to lie about the imbalance that YOU just observed. mine are 120ish mil in high sec incursions (late EUTZ is when I start playing and there is loads of waitlist traffic there) vs about 75 ish mil in null (and yes including escalations).
Of course this is presupposing that one is interested in the truth of the matter rather than trying to preserve an unbalanced cash cow that provides them with easy PLEX isk....
The combat pve more unbalanced than high sec incursions is faction warfare missions. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2083
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 00:55:08 -
[208] - Quote
Violet Hurst wrote: Before i'm counted as a proponent of one side of this argument or the other, i'd like to point out that i haven't completely made up my mind yet and am currently just argueing Nevyn's point of incursions not being a noteworthy ISK faucet.
Speaking of which: 33% is vast while 20% is insignificant... that's an interesting scale. As to the real ratios of NPC bounties between the different security sectors i'll have to try and get myself some reliable numbers tomorrow, same goes for missions. If you could link your source for the 75-80% statement, i'd appreciate that.
Not a direct reference, I believe it was CCP Karkur on the German forums but I don't speak german well enough to put together a search string. Given Fozzie has also come out and said Null earns plenty enough isk, that reinforces the likelyhood that most of those bounties do come from Null.
Anyway, back to incursions and some fun maths. Lets assume LP adds enough value to bring that average up to 10 Trillion per month for incursion income overall. Exact maths actually depends on the internal breakdown of VG's to HQ's from memory. And that all of this income is in high, we know for sure that low & null incursions do get run occasionally but we will assume that the percentage this adds to overall income is negligible. And lets assume a 30 day month as an 'average' length month. This means that there are 720 individual man hours in the month.
If we guess at a true average income of 100 Mil/Hour for an incursion pilot the following occurs. 10,000,000,000,000/100,000,000 = 100,000 Hours of income. 100,000/720 = 138(.88) pilots per hour supported.
Now I believe it's fair to say that Incursions are pretty much fully utilised with contests in HQ & VG's being common enough. And more people being involved would simply result in more contests and more pilots getting 0 income, rather than more fleets making full income. So..... we have an activity that can at any one time support only 140 pilots give or take a few at 100 Mil/Hour. Unless Null & Low start packing out their incursions. This may be 500-700 pilots a day if we assume 6 hour play sessions which doesn't seem that unreasonable, or maybe as high as 1000 a day if we drop to 3 hour play sessions which is short. Is it unreasonable for 1000 pilots who have mastered co-operation in a fleet, typically using deadspace fittings, pirate/T2 hulls, and are under a good FC, to make 100/Hour. These are not people solo farming, there is real risk even from the NPC's themselves let alone player intervention in the sites, even if we are just talking High sec.
If you find that number of players supported at that income unreasonable given the skills and co-operation involved, well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. However, the fun part about those numbers, if you claim 150/Hour income as the normal, those numbers drop to 600 pilots globally supported across an entire day. And under 100 pilots at any one time. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10807
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 01:02:45 -
[209] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
And it is perfectly possible and acceptable for any pilot to engage in these activities. So again I am not sure what the issue is. If you want to suckle on the teet you only need to open your mouth. Elsewise its nothing but whining. If you want to live in 0.0 and only play in 0.0 cool, not everything is fair in EVE. Nothing at all stopping you from heading to HS every now and then to milk the cow. Seems like a bad case of entitlement to me.
The problem is that you are not getting rewarded for taking on more risk and effort. If CCP wants smaller corps and alliances out in nullsec then they are going to have to make it worth moving out there. This is, of course, dead on. It's a sandbox - High Sec shouldn't be for making money so you can go spend it in areas that are for shooting at each other. This just results in the current syndrome where many areas are totally empty of content. All the sovereignty rebalances are for naught if you have secure, untouchable, incursion level income in high sec: why join up with something in null when the income is worse, you will be vulnerable all the time, and you have to defend or lose your holdings?
+1. [url=http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/those-anomaly-changes-in-full/]That's why this didn't work[/url CCP didn't take into account that people could just make isk with their pve toons elsewhere. End result was the sov null they actually expected to liven up with fighting turned into a renters desert where not-so-smart people could rent and make less isk than blitzing lvl 4 missions or running incursions.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10807
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 01:07:17 -
[210] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Violet Hurst wrote: Before i'm counted as a proponent of one side of this argument or the other, i'd like to point out that i haven't completely made up my mind yet and am currently just argueing Nevyn's point of incursions not being a noteworthy ISK faucet.
Speaking of which: 33% is vast while 20% is insignificant... that's an interesting scale. As to the real ratios of NPC bounties between the different security sectors i'll have to try and get myself some reliable numbers tomorrow, same goes for missions. If you could link your source for the 75-80% statement, i'd appreciate that.
Not a direct reference, I believe it was CCP Karkur on the German forums but I don't speak german well enough to put together a search string. Given Fozzie has also come out and said Null earns plenty enough isk, that reinforces the likelyhood that most of those bounties do come from Null. Anyway, back to incursions and some fun maths. Lets assume LP adds enough value to bring that average up to 10 Trillion per month for incursion income overall. Exact maths actually depends on the internal breakdown of VG's to HQ's from memory. And that all of this income is in high, we know for sure that low & null incursions do get run occasionally but we will assume that the percentage this adds to overall income is negligible. And lets assume a 30 day month as an 'average' length month. This means that there are 720 individual man hours in the month. If we guess at a true average income of 100 Mil/Hour for an incursion pilot the following occurs. 10,000,000,000,000/100,000,000 = 100,000 Hours of income. 100,000/720 = 138(.88) pilots per hour supported. Now I believe it's fair to say that Incursions are pretty much fully utilised with contests in HQ & VG's being common enough. And more people being involved would simply result in more contests and more pilots getting 0 income, rather than more fleets making full income. So..... we have an activity that can at any one time support only 140 pilots give or take a few at 100 Mil/Hour. Unless Null & Low start packing out their incursions. This may be 500-700 pilots a day if we assume 6 hour play sessions which doesn't seem that unreasonable, or maybe as high as 1000 a day if we drop to 3 hour play sessions which is short. Is it unreasonable for 1000 pilots who have mastered co-operation in a fleet, typically using deadspace fittings, pirate/T2 hulls, and are under a good FC, to make 100/Hour. These are not people solo farming, there is real risk even from the NPC's themselves let alone player intervention in the sites, even if we are just talking High sec. If you find that number of players supported at that income unreasonable given the skills and co-operation involved, well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. However, the fun part about those numbers, if you claim 150/Hour income as the normal, those numbers drop to 600 pilots globally supported across an entire day. And under 100 pilots at any one time.
He does this so much, we should call it the Nevyn Auscent Deflection Syndrome (I just added the S because it makes the acronym "NADS").
The way it works is that you pretend that the numbers of people doing something that is unbalanced is important, and that if not enough people do it, it's not unbalanced. It's basically denying fact by conflating the specific issue with some other 'macro' level concern, in this case, it's the overall economy (of which incursion income is too small to hurt).
Despite having every opportunity to do so, Nevyn Auscent hasn't spent a single second actually testing the situation in game, his entire reason for posting is to defend high sec. |
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2083
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 01:19:55 -
[211] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: He does this so much, we should call it the Nevyn Auscent Deflection Syndrome (I just added the S because it makes the acronym "NADS").
The way it works is that you pretend that the numbers of people doing something that is unbalanced is important, and that if not enough people do it, it's not unbalanced. It's basically denying fact by conflating the specific issue with some other 'macro' level concern, in this case, it's the overall economy (of which incursion income is too small to hurt).
Despite having every opportunity to do so, Nevyn Auscent hasn't spent a single second actually testing the situation in game, his entire reason for posting is to defend high sec.
And here we see the Jenn anti highsec Tirade, or JAHT for short, who doesn't bother to actually look at any of these numbers, but tries to compare apples to oranges and then complains it's unfair that a solo risk adverse null pilot who docks whenever a neutral enters system and only uses an ishtar doesn't make as much as a pilot using a multi billion isk ship who is reliant on an entire fleet of similar ships for their income. While ignoring the fact that if the same fleet ran in Null they would be making 42% more than highsec while running.
If you want higher income, you take the risk that comes with it. The solo ishtar docking on neuts is virtually no risk because of your chosen risk management style and you have 100% control on those risks. The Highsec incursion pilot is at risk from site alpha, gankers, loosing contests and fleet mates failing. The Null Sec incursion fleet is at risk from all of the above, plus hostiles.
Absolutely, the Null incursion fleet faces significant risks, and if you bothered to read earlier Jenn, I suggested pushing for CCP to continue their experiment with VG's onto all the sites allowing Null to field fleets that are 50% larger than High, to account for the fact that mitigating risks requires less optimal fits such as having points, additional logi, and higher tank to deal with hostiles. But trying to compare an incursion fleet to a solo anom farmer really doesn't hold water. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10807
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 01:44:01 -
[212] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: He does this so much, we should call it the Nevyn Auscent Deflection Syndrome (I just added the S because it makes the acronym "NADS").
The way it works is that you pretend that the numbers of people doing something that is unbalanced is important, and that if not enough people do it, it's not unbalanced. It's basically denying fact by conflating the specific issue with some other 'macro' level concern, in this case, it's the overall economy (of which incursion income is too small to hurt).
Despite having every opportunity to do so, Nevyn Auscent hasn't spent a single second actually testing the situation in game, his entire reason for posting is to defend high sec.
And here we see the Jenn anti highsec Tirade, or JAHT for short, who doesn't bother to actually look at any of these numbers, but tries to compare apples to oranges and then complains it's unfair that a solo risk adverse null pilot who docks whenever a neutral enters system and only uses an ishtar doesn't make as much as a pilot using a multi billion isk ship who is reliant on an entire fleet of similar ships for their income. While ignoring the fact that if the same fleet ran in Null they would be making 42% more than highsec while running. If you want higher income, you take the risk that comes with it. The solo ishtar docking on neuts is virtually no risk because of your chosen risk management style and you have 100% control on those risks. The Highsec incursion pilot is at risk from site alpha, gankers, loosing contests and fleet mates failing. The Null Sec incursion fleet is at risk from all of the above, plus hostiles. Absolutely, the Null incursion fleet faces significant risks, and if you bothered to read earlier Jenn, I suggested pushing for CCP to continue their experiment with VG's onto all the sites allowing Null to field fleets that are 50% larger than High, to account for the fact that mitigating risks requires less optimal fits such as having points, additional logi, and higher tank to deal with hostiles. But trying to compare an incursion fleet to a solo anom farmer really doesn't hold water.
So your brilliant plan to fix the fact that high sec incursions or unblanaced is to change some aspect of null sec incursions that most null sec constellations won't see in a single year.
Brilliant. You should be a doctor, so you can claim bandaids are the proper treatment in cases of decapitation lol.
It's not just null. You have to move up past Class 5 wormholes (the most dangerous space eve has) to start surpassing the isk per hour you can make in high sec incursions protected by CONCORD and dedicated logistics ships. To make the same or more in low or null sec for the average pilot, you need a CARRIER.
the Ishtar part of you post is the most special, as I've said over and over again that you can test it for yourself (as you would if you actually cared about the truth) with the SAME HULL you'd use for incursions (mach/vindi/nightmare).
I know why you don't test it yourself, the results would challenge your world view, and we can't have that. Just don't pretend your on the right side here.
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ashley Eoner
470
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 01:56:07 -
[213] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: It's not just null. You have to move up past Class 5 wormholes (the most dangerous space eve has) to start surpassing the isk per hour you can make in high sec incursions protected by CONCORD and dedicated logistics ships. To make the same or more in low or null sec for the average pilot, you need a CARRIER.
If you really believe that and aren't trolling I'm sorry to say but you're bad at the isk game.
Carriers are cheap and class 5s shouldn't be so underestimated in earnings. I do giggle at you calling class 5 wormholes to be the most dangerous space in eve... |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2084
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 01:57:52 -
[214] - Quote
Actually I don't test it because I don't live in Null currently, therefore any day trip results to an area of space I'm not currently familiar with the residents & camps in would certainly look bad. But I'm not disputing your figures either. What I am disputing is your use of your figures to claim there is an issue.
You are using apples & oranges. One activity you are looking at is a solo activity that can be farmed 24/7 in the same system. The other is a fleet activity where you have to travel to chase them, assuming that there is even one up at the moment. You even try to claim that the fact null incursions travel is a reason to not look at them in null, yet high incursions travelling is irrelevant. Sure it's less an issue, but still incursions don't occur in the same high sec constellation constantly also.
So yes, I do believe high sec incursions are fine as they stand generally speaking. Because they are a co-operative fleet venture, and fleet ventures should reward good income, and we could use more fleet ventures that reward income across all of EVE, rather than most PVE being solo. |
ashley Eoner
470
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 02:05:32 -
[215] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Actually I don't test it because I don't live in Null currently, therefore any day trip results to an area of space I'm not currently familiar with the residents & camps in would certainly look bad. But I'm not disputing your figures either. What I am disputing is your use of your figures to claim there is an issue.
You are using apples & oranges. One activity you are looking at is a solo activity that can be farmed 24/7 in the same system. The other is a fleet activity where you have to travel to chase them, assuming that there is even one up at the moment. You even try to claim that the fact null incursions travel is a reason to not look at them in null, yet high incursions travelling is irrelevant. Sure it's less an issue, but still incursions don't occur in the same high sec constellation constantly also.
So yes, I do believe high sec incursions are fine as they stand generally speaking. Because they are a co-operative fleet venture, and fleet ventures should reward good income, and we could use more fleet ventures that reward income across all of EVE, rather than most PVE being solo. I would like to add that the occasional rage close campaign occurs with highsec incursions which results in almost no isk being made for months at a time. In null I occasionally had a neutral but it was amazingly rare so I could grind isk at any hour. Made more then enough a month to pay for my accounts AND cover the rental cost while leaving billions to pvp with. Don't even get me started on what I made doing cap escalations in a c5 with what felt like no real risk.
It feels like jenn is comparing semi-realistic null income against unrealistic highsec incursion income. Yeah sure some fleets made 200m an hour for well an hour maybe an hour and half. Over the course of a day? much lower maybe half of the peak number. The reality is that between contests and downtime filling positions you don't make optimal isk per hour doing HQs over a long term. You also have other factors in play like time spent moving to new sites, converting and selling LP, etc. When running HQs a significant amount of income is from the LP which does require time and effort to convert to isk. The positive of this is that it creates and isk faucet as it costs isk to convert LP.
My recommendation to anyone that believes incursions are too profitable is that they start a gank campaign. Stop being lazy and demanding CCP do stuff you are perfectly capable of doing. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
240
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 02:15:12 -
[216] - Quote
I'm not against Hi Sec. I'm for the rest of the game.
Simply put, much of the potential content the rest of the game could host is stifled so long as Hi Sec maintains the monopoly on accessible income. Population density is a zero sum game. If you want space to be filled with things waiting to be happen, you have to make that space worth something. At least for me, it's not a rabid, toxic, hate of highsec that wants to see HS incursions go, but rather a desire to see the rest of the game take shape as a dynamic and vibrant stage.
Who's more likely to bring new blood into the fray? Someone who logs in his big'ol vindicator once a month and shoots Tama Cerebellum for a few hours, gets his plex, and logs for the month? Or someone who took a chance, lost ships, betrayed someone, got betrayed by someone, made allies, made enemies...etc? I mean they are not mutually exclusive perhaps, but you stand a far greater chance of having interesting things happen when the 'cheese' in the sand box is limited, in a dangerous place, or even better, both.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15697
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 02:15:39 -
[217] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: You even try to claim that the fact null incursions travel is a reason to not look at them in null, yet high incursions travelling is irrelevant. Sure it's less an issue, but still incursions don't occur in the same high sec constellation constantly also.
You have access to all of highsec so all of its incursions. What do you think is going to happen if N3 or PL try to run an incursion in Dek?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
240
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 02:19:51 -
[218] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:My recommendation to anyone that believes incursions are too profitable is that they start a gank campaign.
This is seriously harder than you think it is. Sure, you will generate a few ALODs from dingleberries who go AFK on gates or autopilot through Uedama/Niarja in their incursion boat, but actually ganking people in the sites isn't all that easy.
Now...if the rats didn't shoot people with high Sansha's Nation standings...Oh yes.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15697
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 02:22:51 -
[219] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote: My recommendation to anyone that believes incursions are too profitable is that they start a gank campaign.
Good luck finding 100+ gankers who are wiling to blow these things up at a massive loss.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 02:33:53 -
[220] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:My recommendation to anyone that believes incursions are too profitable is that they start a gank campaign. This is seriously harder than you think it is. Sure, you will generate a few ALODs from dingleberries who go AFK on gates or autopilot through Uedama/Niarja in their incursion boat, but actually ganking people in the sites isn't all that easy. Now...if the rats didn't shoot people with high Sansha's Nation standings...Oh yes.
This would be pretty awesome. |
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 02:45:00 -
[221] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:I'm not against Hi Sec. I'm for the rest of the game.
Simply put, much of the potential content the rest of the game could host is stifled so long as Hi Sec maintains the monopoly on accessible income. Population density is a zero sum game. If you want space to be filled with things waiting to be happen, you have to make that space worth something. At least for me, it's not a rabid, toxic, hate of highsec that wants to see HS incursions go, but rather a desire to see the rest of the game take shape as a dynamic and vibrant stage.
Who's more likely to bring new blood into the fray? Someone who logs in his big'ol vindicator once a month and shoots Tama Cerebellum for a few hours, gets his plex, and logs for the month? Or someone who took a chance, lost ships, betrayed someone, got betrayed by someone, made allies, made enemies...etc? I mean they are not mutually exclusive perhaps, but you stand a far greater chance of having interesting things happen when the 'cheese' in the sand box is limited, in a dangerous place, or even better, both. The guy who logs his vindi in is a non-factor in that analogy. The more important question is do "boring" players suddenly become more interesting when their one reason to log in goes away in the portrait you paint? I'm not seeing it, though maybe I'm wrong. What contributes even more to that players irrelevance is the fact that it actually doesn't stand in the way of others doing the other things you describe. They were going on before incursions got here and level 4's were killing the game, they still happen now that incursions are killing the game. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10807
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 03:04:21 -
[222] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: You even try to claim that the fact null incursions travel is a reason to not look at them in null, yet high incursions travelling is irrelevant. Sure it's less an issue, but still incursions don't occur in the same high sec constellation constantly also.
You have access to all of highsec so all of its incursions. What do you think is going to happen if N3 or PL try to run an incursion in Dek?
Kudos t still trying to reason with the unreasonable. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10807
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 03:06:26 -
[223] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: It's not just null. You have to move up past Class 5 wormholes (the most dangerous space eve has) to start surpassing the isk per hour you can make in high sec incursions protected by CONCORD and dedicated logistics ships. To make the same or more in low or null sec for the average pilot, you need a CARRIER.
If you really believe that and aren't trolling I'm sorry to say but you're bad at the isk game. Carriers are cheap and class 5s shouldn't be so underestimated in earnings. I do giggle at you calling class 5 wormholes to be the most dangerous space in eve...
Wormhole space is the most dangerous in EVE, it is no one elses fault if you don't understand that.
Carriers. You need CARRIERs, in the single most dangerous par tof EVE space, to match or exceed what can be made in HIGH SEC protected by concord while using su caps.
Thanks for helping me prove my point.
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Dradis Aulmais
RW Vindicator Connection Phoebe Freeport Republic
779
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 03:07:02 -
[224] - Quote
All I have read is "I dont like people doing this part of the game so CCP make it stop."
I like incursion runners. someone has to buy my shinny S**T
Bar Certified General Counsel Attorney at Law Crime and Punishment
JAG Gallente Federal Navy
Clients
Deep Space Mining Corp *Brave Crewmen of the Brave Corporations *
Quafe
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10807
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 03:12:51 -
[225] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Actually I don't test it because I don't live in Null currently, therefore any day trip results to an area of space I'm not currently familiar with the residents & camps in would certainly look bad. But I'm not disputing your figures either. What I am disputing is your use of your figures to claim there is an issue.
We've been talking about this for years. you've had YEARS to try it for yourself. Years to day trip via wormholes and see for yourself.
And you haven't. You know why, it's because you don't want to know. It's the lie smack dab in the middle of your incorrect opinion, and you don't want to know that you are wrong.
Quote: You are using apples & oranges. One activity you are looking at is a solo activity that can be farmed 24/7 in the same system. The other is a fleet activity where you have to travel to chase them, assuming that there is even one up at the moment. You even try to claim that the fact null incursions travel is a reason to not look at them in null, yet high incursions travelling is irrelevant. Sure it's less an issue, but still incursions don't occur in the same high sec constellation constantly also.
So yes, I do believe high sec incursions are fine as they stand generally speaking. Because they are a co-operative fleet venture, and fleet ventures should reward good income, and we could use more fleet ventures that reward income across all of EVE, rather than most PVE being solo.
lol, the "fleet venture" defense. Null anomalies in upgraded systems require WAY more than any incursion fleet ever will, sov in a system represents hundreds of dead ships and years of conflict. And yet you can make more in NPC space (high sec) with one ship than you can with TWO in space you actually had to put in some effort to acquire (and in which you are at risk at).
You are entitled to your point of view, your point of view is ignorant (and ignorance you could cure with a little bit of effort and honesty) and incorrect.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10807
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 03:15:10 -
[226] - Quote
Dradis Aulmais wrote:All I have read is "I dont like people doing this part of the game so CCP make it stop."
I like incursion runners. someone has to buy my shinny S**T
I'm an incursion runner (every few months, it's so damn boring I can't do it for more than a couple weeks), and even I know it's unbalanced.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 03:15:20 -
[227] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: It's not just null. You have to move up past Class 5 wormholes (the most dangerous space eve has) to start surpassing the isk per hour you can make in high sec incursions protected by CONCORD and dedicated logistics ships. To make the same or more in low or null sec for the average pilot, you need a CARRIER.
If you really believe that and aren't trolling I'm sorry to say but you're bad at the isk game. Carriers are cheap and class 5s shouldn't be so underestimated in earnings. I do giggle at you calling class 5 wormholes to be the most dangerous space in eve... Wormhole space is the most dangerous in EVE, it is no one elses fault if you don't understand that. Carriers. You need CARRIERs, in the single most dangerous par tof EVE space, to match or exceed what can be made in HIGH SEC protected by concord while using su caps. Thanks for helping me prove my point. Maybe something is being missed here but why the fixation on carriers? Why do they have some sort of increased income expectation to you? By that logic should supercarriers be the ultimate ratting machines? Also I think it was stated somewhere that even C3's could match the isk/hour of incursions without caps, granted with significantly more limited farming potential. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10810
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 03:51:44 -
[228] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: It's not just null. You have to move up past Class 5 wormholes (the most dangerous space eve has) to start surpassing the isk per hour you can make in high sec incursions protected by CONCORD and dedicated logistics ships. To make the same or more in low or null sec for the average pilot, you need a CARRIER.
If you really believe that and aren't trolling I'm sorry to say but you're bad at the isk game. Carriers are cheap and class 5s shouldn't be so underestimated in earnings. I do giggle at you calling class 5 wormholes to be the most dangerous space in eve... Wormhole space is the most dangerous in EVE, it is no one elses fault if you don't understand that. Carriers. You need CARRIERs, in the single most dangerous par tof EVE space, to match or exceed what can be made in HIGH SEC protected by concord while using su caps. Thanks for helping me prove my point. Maybe something is being missed here but why the fixation on carriers? Why do they have some sort of increased income expectation to you? By that logic should supercarriers be the ultimate ratting machines? Also I think it was stated somewhere that even C3's could match the isk/hour of incursions without caps, granted with significantly more limited farming potential. 4
You are aware that carriers are capital ships that requires WAY more training than a pirate battleship, right?
And yea, you can under the right conditions make incursion style isk in c3 and 4 womrholes, till you run out of anoms. With a c5 and up you make more (till they run out) which get syou closer to matching the per day potential of your average incursion runner....
....but only if you have CAPITAL ships.
And note for the future, it is unhelpful when trying to make a point to display gross ignorance. Super Carriers ARE the ultimate ratting machine. Hell, with only a 20 BILLION isk investment, you to can go to null, rat in a super carrier and make a whopping 50-70 mil isk per hour more than you can with a 2 bil pirate battleship (my incursion mach is an 'intermediate' build, Im not spending 5 bil on a ship like that).
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Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4373
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 03:55:47 -
[229] - Quote
End high-sec Incursions and what, move them to low-sec? Low-sec is a wasteland and beyond salvation, so if this is a stealth buff low-sec/nerf high-sec suggestion it gets a -1. If this a suggestion to improve low-sec it gets a -1. Actually, it just gets a -1 regardless.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:10:49 -
[230] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Drop Concord protection in incursion systems. Leave the income as is. Need no other changes to the incursion mechanics. Make your 200+ isk/hr, now you deserve it. Not sure why anyone would ever go to one of these over one in actual lowsec. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15698
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:11:43 -
[231] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Maybe something is being missed here but why the fixation on carriers? Why do they have some sort of increased income expectation to you?
Sheer firepower they can produce.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: By that logic should supercarriers be the ultimate ratting machines?
They used to be but CCP nerfed them several years ago.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Mario Putzo
1274
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:12:20 -
[232] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
And it is perfectly possible and acceptable for any pilot to engage in these activities. So again I am not sure what the issue is. If you want to suckle on the teet you only need to open your mouth. Elsewise its nothing but whining. If you want to live in 0.0 and only play in 0.0 cool, not everything is fair in EVE. Nothing at all stopping you from heading to HS every now and then to milk the cow. Seems like a bad case of entitlement to me.
The problem is that you are not getting rewarded for taking on more risk and effort. If CCP wants smaller corps and alliances out in nullsec then they are going to have to make it worth moving out there.
Did you ever think that the reason people don't go to NS is because in its current fashion it is literally the aids that is killing this game? NS is ****. It is **** to live there, it is **** to play there, it is so **** 90% of NS is empty. Perhaps instead of continuing to attempt to encourage people to move there through making HS equally ****, you should post constructive ideas about making NS not ****.
Truesec being the only decent space to do anything in. ****. Having 50K Blues surrounding you 30 jumps in every direction because sov mechanics suck. **** It being more efficient to import from HS than actually produce anything in NS. **** Literally being dependent on JFs to service most of NS space. ****.
NS is so ****, you have the largest coalition grinding structure HP in three regions, where nobody actually lives anymore...because there is literally nothing left for them to do. 2 months before Structure HP is going to die in the fire it should have years ago.
Fun engaging times come live in NS today!
Why in the **** would anyone actually want to live there...Oh they don't 75% of active players in this game choose to play in HS. The most active area of space is LS with nearly a 1:1 ratio of pilots:systems. People don't go to NS because it is literally the worst ******* area to play this game, whats your fun per hour? Probably ******* low as balls.
If you want to improve NS F+I is over that way, join the discussion in the dozens of threads, contribute ideas on how to make NS a more enjoyable place, a place where people want to go because they desire it, not because they don't have any other choice to play the game the way they want to play the game. Nerfing HS will not make people desire to go to NS, they will just quit the game if it gets to the point they no longer enjoy it. Fun fact, not everyone has ambitions to build sand castles and kick others sand castles over, not everyone needs to wrap themselves up in a ~narrative~ in order to undock.
Besides, if you want to do something about HS incursions and their risk factor then do it. Mechanics exist in this game that allow you to create risk for them. If you choose not to employ them, then you are literally no better than the guys who complain endlessly about gankers, and if ISK/HR is so god damn important to you, and your definition of fun...then go run HS incursions, there is literally nothing stopping you from doing them.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:15:08 -
[233] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: By that logic should supercarriers be the ultimate ratting machines?
They used to be but CCP nerfed them several years ago. Sounds like my knowledge is outdated then. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15698
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:20:00 -
[234] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:highsec rage
They are changing null sov mechanics and we have as a result abandoned several regions.
Mario Putzo wrote:Besides, if you want to do something about HS incursions and their risk factor then do it. Mechanics exist in this game that allow you to create risk for them.
Easy to say but near impossible to do. You cannot gank these fleets and hope to make anything but a massive loss. They sport hefty tanks, roll with six and up t2 logi ships and pack a lot of firepower. They will rip apart a gank fleet like a knife through butter.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15698
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:21:45 -
[235] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Sounds like my knowledge is outdated then.
Very. Nobody has ratted with supers since the tracking titan nerf and supers lost access to normal drones.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Mario Putzo
1276
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:23:27 -
[236] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Easy to say but near impossible to do. You cannot gank these fleets and hope to make anything but a massive loss. They sport hefty tanks, roll with six and up t2 logi ships and pack a lot of firepower. They will rip apart a gank fleet like a knife through butter.
LOL the ironing is delicious.
"Hey guys HS Incursions aren't Risky enough"
Then go do something about it.
"Nah man too much risk"
what a ******* joke. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:25:51 -
[237] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Sounds like my knowledge is outdated then.
Very. Nobody has ratted with supers since the tracking titan nerf. Well, then I suppose my point stands even further that bigger pricetags don't seem to indicate increased PvE performance, leaving aside the question of a lone pilot vs a fleet mandating activity.
Thanks for the education on the matter. Much appreciated. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:28:07 -
[238] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:highsec rage They are changing null sov mechanics and we have as a result abandoned several regions. Mario Putzo wrote:Besides, if you want to do something about HS incursions and their risk factor then do it. Mechanics exist in this game that allow you to create risk for them.
Easy to say but near impossible to do. You cannot gank these fleets and hope to make anything but a massive loss. They sport hefty tanks, roll with six and up t2 logi ships and pack a lot of firepower. They will rip apart a gank fleet like a knife through butter. Honest question, most incursions sit with the mom exposed for days, leaving a clear course to end the isk making potential while avoiding any more risk of loss than the incursion runners themselves face. Why is this not utilized more often? Also why is ganking usually considered the first thought for a player based solution rather than this. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15699
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:28:22 -
[239] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote: Easy to say but near impossible to do. You cannot gank these fleets and hope to make anything but a massive loss. They sport hefty tanks, roll with six and up t2 logi ships and pack a lot of firepower. They will rip apart a gank fleet like a knife through butter.
LOL the ironing is delicious. "Hey guys HS Incursions aren't Risky enough" Then go do something about it. "Nah man too much risk" what a ******* joke.
There is a difference between risk and near impossible. Suicide ganking tactics do not work against a battleship fleet with logi support.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15699
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:31:02 -
[240] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Honest question, most incursions sit with the mom exposed for days, leaving a clear course to end the isk making potential while avoiding any more risk of loss than the incursion runners themselves face. Why is this not utilized more often? Also why is ganking usually considered the first thought for a player based solution rather than this.
We did do this for a while but there is not enough profit to justify this tactic long term.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
66
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:38:59 -
[241] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Drop Concord protection in incursion systems. Leave the income as is. Need no other changes to the incursion mechanics. Make your 200+ isk/hr, now you deserve it. Not sure why anyone would ever go to one of these over one in actual lowsec.
Lowsec would still be higher risk. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:43:18 -
[242] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Drop Concord protection in incursion systems. Leave the income as is. Need no other changes to the incursion mechanics. Make your 200+ isk/hr, now you deserve it. Not sure why anyone would ever go to one of these over one in actual lowsec. Lowsec would still be higher risk. When any hostile group has freedom to travel to the doorstep of the constellation under concord protection I can't help but doubt the accuracy of that statement. |
Mario Putzo
1277
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:47:22 -
[243] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote: Easy to say but near impossible to do. You cannot gank these fleets and hope to make anything but a massive loss. They sport hefty tanks, roll with six and up t2 logi ships and pack a lot of firepower. They will rip apart a gank fleet like a knife through butter.
LOL the ironing is delicious. "Hey guys HS Incursions aren't Risky enough" Then go do something about it. "Nah man too much risk" what a ******* joke. There is a difference between risk and near impossible. Suicide ganking tactics do not work against a battleship fleet with logi support.
Who said anything about suicide ganking. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10810
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 04:58:36 -
[244] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Besides, if you want to do something about HS incursions and their risk factor then do it. Mechanics exist in this game that allow you to create risk for them. If you choose not to employ them, then you are literally no better than the guys who complain endlessly about gankers, and if ISK/HR is so god damn important to you, and your definition of fun...then go run HS incursions, there is literally nothing stopping you from doing them.
Why, exactly, would I or anyone else gank the incursions we are profiting from? We ARE doing them. That's how we know the imbalance exists. That's what you don't get, an imbalance doesn't stop being an imbalance just because people partake in it. I also have an alt in the Tribal Liberation Front flying a purifier and making more isk in an hour (in LP that gets dumped when we are at tier 4 or greater) than incursions and null anoms combined.
Making that kind of wealth with a stealth bomber is unbalanced. Making twice as much isk with THE SAME HULL in the safety of high sec than you would risking that half billion isk pirate hull in null sec is similarly broken. The only pve that works correctly in EVE online is wormhole PVE, the ret is broken,
You might not care, but those of us who PVE tend to, because those imbalances create distortions in the game eco-system that result in bad consequences. Here is the text book example of it. That change should have worked, it should have created more conflict in null. More conflict means more ships dying. More ships dying means more profits for HIGH SEC ship builders and mission runners who provide modules via loyalty points. It would have meant that null sec people could have lived in null rather than taking up space in high sec incursion fleets that high sec pilots could have enjoyed. It should have meant more targets (content) for null, low and wormhole raider types who would day trip into sov null for kills.
But it didn't, because why fight over pennies when you can go to high sec (or faction warfare, or a wormhole) and make more with (in high sec's case) less chance of loss or interruption. The ONLY think the change in that link did was make high sec incursion wait lists expand.
And the 'imbalance deniers" and "high sec partisans" Are too bloody short sighted to understand any of this. The high sec types cling to their imbalances not understanding that an end to it means more for EVERYONE (better value for miners, industrialists and mission runners because null people can actually live in null where things blow up because it's lucrative enough, less wait time for high sec incursion fleets because fewer null alts, fewer null sec alts crapping up high sec in general and NO MORE of these threads).
But hey, it's ok, you guys deny the existence of something that not only can you test for yourselves, but also that distorts the game to the point that it's actually having an affect on you now, and folks like me will keep flying in high sec incursions (well, i won't, been doing them for two weeks, tired to death of them for at least a month) occupying fleet spots you could have had lol. Enjoy that wait list. |
Mario Putzo
1278
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:01:57 -
[245] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Besides, if you want to do something about HS incursions and their risk factor then do it. Mechanics exist in this game that allow you to create risk for them. If you choose not to employ them, then you are literally no better than the guys who complain endlessly about gankers, and if ISK/HR is so god damn important to you, and your definition of fun...then go run HS incursions, there is literally nothing stopping you from doing them.
Why, exactly, would I or anyone else gank the incursions we are profiting from? We ARE doing them. That's how we know the imbalance exists. That's what you don't get, an imbalance doesn't stop being an imbalance just because people partake in it. I also have an alt in the Tribal Liberation Front flying a purifier and making more isk in an hour (in LP that gets dumped when we are at tier 4 or greater) than incursions and null anoms combined.
An imbalance compared to what exactly? As far as I know incursions also exist in Lowsec, and Nullsec. So where exactly is this imbalance?
Also I didn't say anything about ganking them...think outside of the box friend. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
67
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:14:50 -
[246] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Besides, if you want to do something about HS incursions and their risk factor then do it. Mechanics exist in this game that allow you to create risk for them. If you choose not to employ them, then you are literally no better than the guys who complain endlessly about gankers, and if ISK/HR is so god damn important to you, and your definition of fun...then go run HS incursions, there is literally nothing stopping you from doing them.
Why, exactly, would I or anyone else gank the incursions we are profiting from? We ARE doing them. That's how we know the imbalance exists. That's what you don't get, an imbalance doesn't stop being an imbalance just because people partake in it. I also have an alt in the Tribal Liberation Front flying a purifier and making more isk in an hour (in LP that gets dumped when we are at tier 4 or greater) than incursions and null anoms combined. An imbalance compared to what exactly? As far as I know incursions also exist in Lowsec, and Nullsec. So where exactly is this imbalance? Also I didn't say anything about ganking them... think outside of the box friend. (also please don't include me with "you guys" thanks. I have never done a single incursion, and probably never will.)
You want me to Logi the Sansha? Lol, mate, just laughing at that possibility... |
Mario Putzo
1278
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:17:19 -
[247] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Besides, if you want to do something about HS incursions and their risk factor then do it. Mechanics exist in this game that allow you to create risk for them. If you choose not to employ them, then you are literally no better than the guys who complain endlessly about gankers, and if ISK/HR is so god damn important to you, and your definition of fun...then go run HS incursions, there is literally nothing stopping you from doing them.
Why, exactly, would I or anyone else gank the incursions we are profiting from? We ARE doing them. That's how we know the imbalance exists. That's what you don't get, an imbalance doesn't stop being an imbalance just because people partake in it. I also have an alt in the Tribal Liberation Front flying a purifier and making more isk in an hour (in LP that gets dumped when we are at tier 4 or greater) than incursions and null anoms combined. An imbalance compared to what exactly? As far as I know incursions also exist in Lowsec, and Nullsec. So where exactly is this imbalance? Also I didn't say anything about ganking them... think outside of the box friend. (also please don't include me with "you guys" thanks. I have never done a single incursion, and probably never will.) You want me to Logi the Sansha? Lol, mate, just laughing at that possibility...
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15702
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:19:52 -
[248] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
Doesn't work.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Mario Putzo
1278
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:26:19 -
[249] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
Doesn't work.
I would love to see a source for that. Works on every other NPC in the game, NPC list also includes Sanshas Incursion Rats. Of course you probably haven't actually attempted it. Neither have I, but I have gone into missions and repped rats others were shooting. So ya, source please. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
67
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:32:35 -
[250] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
Doesn't work. I would love to see a source for that. Works on every other NPC in the game, NPC list also includes Sanshas Incursion Rats. Of course you probably haven't actually attempted it. Neither have I, but I have gone into missions and repped rats others were shooting. So ya, source please.
Just tried it, doesn't work. "interference" cited.
So that leaves ganking and wardecs. And wardecs don't work. |
|
Mario Putzo
1280
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:35:02 -
[251] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
Doesn't work. I would love to see a source for that. Works on every other NPC in the game, NPC list also includes Sanshas Incursion Rats. Of course you probably haven't actually attempted it. Neither have I, but I have gone into missions and repped rats others were shooting. So ya, source please. Just tried it, doesn't work. "interference" cited. So that leaves ganking and wardecs. And wardecs don't work.
Super gay.
Oh well sorry NS guys I tried to help ya out. Guess you will just have to keep complaining about the system they just buffed 6 months ago.
Or CCP can remove ~interference~ |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21910
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:38:06 -
[252] - Quote
Repping NPCs gets you CONCORDed or a warning from the GMs.
Unlike you who just talk like an idiot I actually tried repping NPCs ... ... not Sanshas, but that doesn't matter ... ... and it's verboten, because ... ... well I forgot.
That was in 2011 or something?
So go ahead and rep them. Do it. Be a winner.
lol
You're all idiots. If anyone cared qbout change, they should cut incursion income to a quarter and then readjust eventually.
BECAUSE NO ONE OF YOU HYPOCRIT LIARS ACTUALLY PLAYS FOR THE FUN OF IT YOU ALL JUST PLAY FOR THE GODDAMN MONEY! YOU PEOPLE ARE THE WORST OF THE WORST!
Any and all discussions are pointless, because you incursion runners have no honesty in you.
You just talk out of your asses just because you are greedy monsters.
Goons should come to highsec and just end all incursions ASAP.
We all will laugh at your tears of rage you stinking, worthless carebears.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
67
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:40:07 -
[253] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
Doesn't work. I would love to see a source for that. Works on every other NPC in the game, NPC list also includes Sanshas Incursion Rats. Of course you probably haven't actually attempted it. Neither have I, but I have gone into missions and repped rats others were shooting. So ya, source please. Just tried it, doesn't work. "interference" cited. So that leaves ganking and wardecs. And wardecs don't work. Super gay. Oh well sorry NS guys I tried to help ya out. Guess you will just have to keep complaining about the system they just buffed 6 months ago.
Np thanks. And fwiw, I live in highsec. This isn't about sec (ie null/vs/high) it is just about risk/reward imbalance for me. Add some risk and I could agree with the rewards. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
67
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:44:28 -
[254] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Repping NPCs gets you CONCORDed or a warning from the GMs.
Unlike you who just talk like an idiot I actually tried repping NPCs ... ... not Sanshas, but that doesn't matter ... ... and it's verboten, because ... ... well I forgot.
That was in 2011 or something?
So go ahead and rep them. Do it. Be a winner.
lol
You're all idiots. If anyone cared qbout change, they should cut incursion income to a quarter and then readjust eventually.
BECAUSE NO ONE OF YOU HYPOCRIT LIARS ACTUALLY PLAYS FOR THE FUN OF IT YOU ALL JUST PLAY FOR THE GODDAMN MONEY! YOU PEOPLE ARE THE WORST OF THE WORST!
Any and all discussions are pointless, because you incursion runners have no honesty in you.
You just talk out of your asses just because you are greedy monsters.
Goons should come to highsec and just end all incursions ASAP.
We all will laugh at your tears of rage you stinking, worthless carebears.
Sol on a rampage GG
|
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
104
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:44:32 -
[255] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Repping NPCs gets you CONCORDed or a warning from the GMs.
Unlike you who just talk like an idiot I actually tried repping NPCs ... ... not Sanshas, but that doesn't matter ... ... and it's verboten, because ... ... well I forgot.
That was in 2011 or something?
So go ahead and rep them. Do it. Be a winner.
lol
You're all idiots. If anyone cared qbout change, they should cut incursion income to a quarter and then readjust eventually.
BECAUSE NO ONE OF YOU HYPOCRIT LIARS ACTUALLY PLAYS FOR THE FUN OF IT YOU ALL JUST PLAY FOR THE GODDAMN MONEY! YOU PEOPLE ARE THE WORST OF THE WORST!
Any and all discussions are pointless, because you incursion runners have no honesty in you.
You just talk out of your asses just because you are greedy monsters.
Goons should come to highsec and just end all incursions ASAP.
We all will laugh at your tears of rage you stinking, worthless carebears.
Can you please lend me some isk? Like 500mill? Tyvm. I dont wana bear 4 it |
Mario Putzo
1280
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:47:54 -
[256] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote: Np thanks. And fwiw, I live in highsec. This isn't about sec (ie null/vs/high) it is just about risk/reward imbalance for me. Add some risk and I could agree with the rewards.
Meh im indifferent. The most profitable venture in EVE is trading, don't even need to undock for that!
Risk/Reward is a joke anyway. It is a placebo catch all that people use to get what they want. If Risk/Reward was actually a balancing metric folks living in Low Sec would be shiting gold nuggets
That being said, would be cool if Incursions blocked CONCORD. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21911
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:51:48 -
[257] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Repping NPCs gets you CONCORDed or a warning from the GMs.
Unlike you who just talk like an idiot I actually tried repping NPCs ... ... not Sanshas, but that doesn't matter ... ... and it's verboten, because ... ... well I forgot.
That was in 2011 or something?
So go ahead and rep them. Do it. Be a winner.
lol
You're all idiots. If anyone cared qbout change, they should cut incursion income to a quarter and then readjust eventually.
BECAUSE NO ONE OF YOU HYPOCRIT LIARS ACTUALLY PLAYS FOR THE FUN OF IT YOU ALL JUST PLAY FOR THE GODDAMN MONEY! YOU PEOPLE ARE THE WORST OF THE WORST!
Any and all discussions are pointless, because you incursion runners have no honesty in you.
You just talk out of your asses just because you are greedy monsters.
Goons should come to highsec and just end all incursions ASAP.
We all will laugh at your tears of rage you stinking, worthless carebears. Can you please lend me some isk? Like 500mill? Tyvm. I dont wana bear 4 it Get a job. Buy PLEX. Sell on the market.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21912
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:56:11 -
[258] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Repping NPCs gets you CONCORDed or a warning from the GMs.
Unlike you who just talk like an idiot I actually tried repping NPCs ... ... not Sanshas, but that doesn't matter ... ... and it's verboten, because ... ... well I forgot.
That was in 2011 or something?
So go ahead and rep them. Do it. Be a winner.
lol
You're all idiots. If anyone cared qbout change, they should cut incursion income to a quarter and then readjust eventually.
BECAUSE NO ONE OF YOU HYPOCRIT LIARS ACTUALLY PLAYS FOR THE FUN OF IT YOU ALL JUST PLAY FOR THE GODDAMN MONEY! YOU PEOPLE ARE THE WORST OF THE WORST!
Any and all discussions are pointless, because you incursion runners have no honesty in you.
You just talk out of your asses just because you are greedy monsters.
Goons should come to highsec and just end all incursions ASAP.
We all will laugh at your tears of rage you stinking, worthless carebears. Sol on a rampage GG You know what then happens? They will fill the forums with rage and worthless threats of unsubbing!
We could only wish this to come true!
Adjusting the rewards to the risk is pointless anyway. What CCP should do it cut the income down dramatically to see who is actually doing them for the fun of it and not just to fill their empty egos with pixelmoney!
And THEN we can talk about it!
Anything else is completely pointless!
Aaaand quoted the wrong post. Meant to quote the one about risk/reward adjustment.
In any way ... why can't goons do us all a favour and just end this?
LET THE IMPERIUM TAKE OVER HIGHSEC!
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
68
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:57:54 -
[259] - Quote
Better yet, donate that Plex to PLEX4GOOD.
Do that and I'll give you that value in warships.
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21912
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:59:17 -
[260] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote: Np thanks. And fwiw, I live in highsec. This isn't about sec (ie null/vs/high) it is just about risk/reward imbalance for me. Add some risk and I could agree with the rewards.
Meh im indifferent. The most profitable venture in EVE is trading, don't even need to undock for that! Risk/Reward is a joke anyway. It is a placebo catch all that people use to get what they want. If Risk/Reward was actually a balancing metric folks living in Low Sec would be shiting gold nuggets That being said, would be cool if Incursions blocked CONCORD. If you propose that as idea in F&I I will support and defend it to the teeth!
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Better yet, donate that Plex to PLEX4GOOD.
Do that and I'll give you that value in warships.
You wished. "BUT I NEED THAT MONEY TO PLEX MY ACCOUNTS HOW CAN YOU ASK ME TO WASTE IT???"
Or... "Oh sure here have a PLEX see I'm a good person!" ... not mentioning the hundreds of billions they have already.
That's the reality of greed!
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
|
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Against ALL Anomalies
198
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 05:59:36 -
[261] - Quote
this is one thing i never get my head around with some people in this game why the hell would you ask for something like making is to be nerfed! |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21912
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 06:02:09 -
[262] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:this is one thing i never get my head around with some people in this game why the hell would you ask for something like making is to be nerfed! You are missing the point. Completely.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Mario Putzo
1282
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 06:06:16 -
[263] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote: Np thanks. And fwiw, I live in highsec. This isn't about sec (ie null/vs/high) it is just about risk/reward imbalance for me. Add some risk and I could agree with the rewards.
Meh im indifferent. The most profitable venture in EVE is trading, don't even need to undock for that! Risk/Reward is a joke anyway. It is a placebo catch all that people use to get what they want. If Risk/Reward was actually a balancing metric folks living in Low Sec would be shiting gold nuggets That being said, would be cool if Incursions blocked CONCORD. If you propose that as idea in F&I I will support and defend it to the teeth! !
Meh I actually have 0 fucks to give whether incursions change or not. I don't do them, and I really could care less how people make their isk, or how much isk they make, because really it doesn't impact me in the slightest.
I am only here because NS vs HS.
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
68
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 06:06:37 -
[264] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Better yet, donate that Plex to PLEX4GOOD.
Do that and I'll give you that value in warships.
You wished. "BUT I NEED THAT MONEY TO PLEX MY ACCOUNTS HOW CAN YOU ASK ME TO WASTE IT???" Or... "Oh sure here have a PLEX see I'm a good person!" ... not mentioning the hundreds of billions they have already. That's the reality of greed!
imho Funny thing is, people who really need the most ask for the least. And those who give from the heart never need tell others.
Ppl need it, don't matter who gives it. Just do what you can. |
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
5403
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 06:09:50 -
[265] - Quote
Removed some off topic posts. Keep it on topic and civil. No more warnings.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Mario Putzo
1282
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 06:14:18 -
[266] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Ding ding ding, we have a winner!
Doesn't work. I would love to see a source for that. Works on every other NPC in the game, NPC list also includes Sanshas Incursion Rats. Of course you probably haven't actually attempted it. Neither have I, but I have gone into missions and repped rats others were shooting. So ya, source please. Just tried it, doesn't work. "interference" cited. So that leaves ganking and wardecs. And wardecs don't work.
(not my fault the filter sucks)
Well that is super unfortunate.
Sorry NS folks was just trying to help you out, but I suppose you can return to complaining about a system that was buffed only 6 months ago.
Would be neat to see Incursions block CONCORD though. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
69
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 06:16:55 -
[267] - Quote
^^ok.
As to the OP, incursion income is out of whack in HS, related to other activities. I would increase the risk, and leave income potential at the current levels. Remove Concord response in incursion systems. Let the players dictate the risk levels. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21915
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 06:23:35 -
[268] - Quote
Ending this debate demands a thread in F&I, asking for ...
... cutting HS incursion income down to a quarter to see who actually runs them for the gameplay. ... removing CONCORD from sites, because it makes no sense whatsoever that they are there. ... a way to actually disrupt incursion farming. The current situation does not allow for that at all.
Wardecs are pointless and suicide ganking does not allow for successfull disruption.
In any case are incursions the opposite of what this game is about. There is no way to counter incursioneers successfully, continuously, and there is no amount of ISK that could change that.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1064
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 06:41:13 -
[269] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:^^ok.
As to the OP, incursion income is out of whack in HS, related to other activities. I would increase the risk, and leave income potential at the current levels. Remove Concord response in incursion systems. Let the players dictate the risk levels.
then you might as well go to lowsec.
honestly most players risk billion isk+ ships to run incursions, but if they don't ever lose them then I guess that isn't much of a risk. but that risk gets hard to quantify as not losing a ship depends on other players doing their role.
most of my incursion experience was running VGs at off peak hours, and as far as that goes I'd rather just run lv4 missions. maybe these days the communities are better and you can do HQs/Assaults or whatever you do at more hours so that would be one thing, but also that HQs have a double? payout of VGs.
and then there are scouts which got "buffed" but apparently to a state where they are useless.
@ChainsawPlankto
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
70
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 06:51:31 -
[270] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:^^ok.
As to the OP, incursion income is out of whack in HS, related to other activities. I would increase the risk, and leave income potential at the current levels. Remove Concord response in incursion systems. Let the players dictate the risk levels. then you might as well go to lowsec. honestly most players risk billion isk+ ships to run incursions, but if they don't ever lose them then I guess that isn't much of a risk. but that risk gets hard to quantify as not losing a ship depends on other players doing their role. most of my incursion experience was running VGs at off peak hours, and as far as that goes I'd rather just run lv4 missions. maybe these days the communities are better and you can do HQs/Assaults or whatever you do at more hours so that would be one thing, but also that HQs have a double? payout of VGs. and then there are scouts which got "buffed" but apparently to a state where they are useless.
I have yet to ever ask anything be "nerfed", especially incomes. In a way, this would be asking for a "buff" to PvP, by removing the NPC oversight during (sigh) an NPC event.
Why not throw in the Drifters/Sleepers, and belt rats too and make it an NPC fest, and we can all sit around and watch the NPC's fight each other. And then fight each other to scoop up the loot drops...
Less NPCs all around, it is supposed to be PvP is it not? Or maybe I joined EvE for all the wrong reasons....? Sighs...
|
|
Mario Putzo
1283
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 06:58:00 -
[271] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:^^ok.
As to the OP, incursion income is out of whack in HS, related to other activities. I would increase the risk, and leave income potential at the current levels. Remove Concord response in incursion systems. Let the players dictate the risk levels. then you might as well go to lowsec. honestly most players risk billion isk+ ships to run incursions, but if they don't ever lose them then I guess that isn't much of a risk. but that risk gets hard to quantify as not losing a ship depends on other players doing their role. most of my incursion experience was running VGs at off peak hours, and as far as that goes I'd rather just run lv4 missions. maybe these days the communities are better and you can do HQs/Assaults or whatever you do at more hours so that would be one thing, but also that HQs have a double? payout of VGs. and then there are scouts which got "buffed" but apparently to a state where they are useless.
Some good points here. Players are risking their ships, and they depend on their fleet mates to do their jobs. If people don't do their jobs people die. Sadly some folks in this thread believe risk should only be applied in a player to player aspect and that risk from NPCs to Players is not applicable.
Essentially they want CCP to either allow them to come in and roll the incursion runners with any amount of ships they think is needed, OR They want the rewards reduced if they can't.
Interesting conundrum, how does one define risk. Is fielding a multibillion ISK fleet against rats that can wipe it if people lose focus not any more risky than fielding the same against players who can wipe it if people lose focus?
Surely putting something on the line and trusting in others is risk. Just because it is down to a science doesn't make it any less risky, and there is no I win button like in most PVP encounters where Super or Titans can be deployed like PL did to HERO coalition anytime they were going to lose, or like NC. is doing to Provi right now.
Risk is Risk no? |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21916
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 07:15:02 -
[272] - Quote
No. Stay real, not theoretical. When a situation is 100% predictable the amount of risk is zero.
The only way to lose a ship is when the logi fails and for that there are multiple around to prevent danger.
The risk is not there at all. Theory is irrelevant.
What matters is what's actual reality, which shows that the only risk of losing is when people CONCORD themselves by having safety off and shooting the wrong ship. A d that one simply doesn't count.
The ONLY reason why they field blingy ships is because they know they wont lose them! That's all there is to it! Believing anything else means believing greedy people love to take risks. Nonsense!
Discussing theory is nonsense.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 07:22:40 -
[273] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Ending this debate demands a thread in F&I, asking for ...
... cutting HS incursion income down to a quarter to see who actually runs them for the gameplay. ... removing CONCORD from sites, because it makes no sense whatsoever that they are there. ... a way to actually disrupt incursion farming. The current situation does not allow for that at all.
Wardecs are pointless and suicide ganking does not allow for successfull disruption.
In any case are incursions the opposite of what this game is about. There is no way to counter incursioneers successfully, continuously, and there is no amount of ISK that could change that. Well, there is one way, killing the mom. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21918
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 07:32:46 -
[274] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Ending this debate demands a thread in F&I, asking for ...
... cutting HS incursion income down to a quarter to see who actually runs them for the gameplay. ... removing CONCORD from sites, because it makes no sense whatsoever that they are there. ... a way to actually disrupt incursion farming. The current situation does not allow for that at all.
Wardecs are pointless and suicide ganking does not allow for successfull disruption.
In any case are incursions the opposite of what this game is about. There is no way to counter incursioneers successfully, continuously, and there is no amount of ISK that could change that. Well, there is one way, killing the mom. Which does not count as interference, because the mom only shows up at the end.
The fact that people deliberately let their mom live to squeeze even more ISK out of it is a different topic.
lol their mom.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 07:47:16 -
[275] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Ending this debate demands a thread in F&I, asking for ...
... cutting HS incursion income down to a quarter to see who actually runs them for the gameplay. ... removing CONCORD from sites, because it makes no sense whatsoever that they are there. ... a way to actually disrupt incursion farming. The current situation does not allow for that at all.
Wardecs are pointless and suicide ganking does not allow for successfull disruption.
In any case are incursions the opposite of what this game is about. There is no way to counter incursioneers successfully, continuously, and there is no amount of ISK that could change that. Well, there is one way, killing the mom. Which does not count as interference, because the mom only shows up at the end. The fact that people deliberately let their mom live to squeeze even more ISK out of it is a different topic. lol their mom. I guess disrupt needs defined, killing the incursion in under a day seems pretty disruptive. If defining it as successfully killing the runners, not sure that needs addressed. Not really much reason a 100k EHP ship with logi support needs to be more likely to die in an incursion than anywhere else in the same circumstance.
Was there another for of disruption you had in mind? |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21920
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 08:07:06 -
[276] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I guess disrupt needs defined, killing the incursion in under a day seems pretty disruptive. If defining it as successfully killing the runners, not sure that needs addressed. Not really much reason a 100k EHP ship with logi support needs to be more likely to die in an incursion than anywhere else in the same circumstance.
Was there another for of disruption you had in mind? NPC alt. 5.0sec status. Considering that you seem to believe that killing the mom counts as interference or disruption (it doesn't) I guess you're an incursion runner?
The mom shows up at the end, when everything is set and done already. Killing the mom would not "interfere" or "disrupt". It would end it.
"Interfering" or "disrupting" does not need a definition, because they already have one.
Incursioneers might see it as "interference", but them simply not popping the mom out of greed does not change the definition of words.
I have used both words, btw, throughout this thread. In anyway does killing the mom count as neither. I guess I can't stress that enough.
Interference. Meaning to hinder/stop them temporarily, and force them to counter the interference.
I don't really see the difference to "disrupting their activity", btw.
What matters is that there is no sane way to force them to stop. There is no sane way to stop/hinder/counter their activities, which is completely unEVE.
All options we know are of no use, as has been said in this thread already over and over again.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
244
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 08:08:39 -
[277] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Just because it is down to a science doesn't make it any less risky, and there is no I win button like in most PVP encounters where Super or Titans can be deployed like PL did to HERO coalition anytime they were going to lose, or like NC. is doing to Provi right now.
Risk is Risk no?
No?
I wish I could quantify, but since I do not have exact numbers, I guess we have to stay in the realm of qualitative observations. The fact that is is down to a science does make it less risky. You do see occasional PvE losses of shiny incursion ships, and people are going to get a good laugh out of those, but by and large, they are probably rare; the amount of loss to incursion rats compared to the net wealth they generate is a horribly tilted ratio, largely because it IS worked to a science. The science itself here significantly lowers the risk - take an incursion fleet lead by someone who knows the sites better than the back of his hand, versus a fleet with fits not specifically tailored for it, and without a-priori knowledge of the site. This may seem absurd, but over time, the doctrines, fits, knowledge base, etc, have continually refined the 'science' of incursions, whereas I'm sure there were lots of horrible and hilarious experiments early on. Since rats are 100% predictable, once the science is known, risks are basically mitigated entirely. Since there is no player risk in hisec, no actual threat to the point where it becomes meaningful, this science basically ensures as close to 100% safety as possible.
Compare that to people working the streets of sov null. How many miners, Ishtars, and other ratting ships die out there, and in the process, how much content (you know, what keeps people interested in the game) do they create, while theoretically also making people some money to fight with. Maybe anoms are broken, but at least they make player content, whereas the incursions never really pose any risk, because science lets you trump the rats almost without fail.
Again, I wish I could get quantitative here, but at least anecdotally, I would be willing to bet my ISK that HS incursion runners have the best gain to loss ratio out there, or at least significantly higher than other forms of ratting. Wormholers face horrible risks. Its a systematic problem that HS incursion is at all competitive with it, without the risk. Any sane person is going to take the easy, risk free way to the same ISK/hr. If I was new, and had a choice of venturing into a C3, or doing incursions, I'd pick incursions all the time - all ISK, no RISK. If you want an exciting game where content is being made, you have to tie risk to reward.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 08:25:34 -
[278] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:I guess disrupt needs defined, killing the incursion in under a day seems pretty disruptive. If defining it as successfully killing the runners, not sure that needs addressed. Not really much reason a 100k EHP ship with logi support needs to be more likely to die in an incursion than anywhere else in the same circumstance.
Was there another for of disruption you had in mind? NPC alt. 5.0sec status. Considering that you seem to believe that killing the mom counts as interference or disruption (it doesn't) I guess you're an incursion runner? The mom shows up at the end, when everything is set and done already. Killing the mom would not "interfere" or "disrupt". It would end it. "Interfering" or "disrupting" does not need a definition, because they already have one. Incursioneers might see it as "interference", but them simply not popping the mom out of greed does not change the definition of words. I have used both words, btw, throughout this thread. In anyway does killing the mom count as neither. I guess I can't stress that enough. Interference. Meaning to hinder/stop them temporarily, and force them to counter the interference. I don't really see the difference to "disrupting their activity", btw. What matters is that there is no sane way to force them to stop. There is no sane way to stop/hinder/counter their activities, which is completely unEVE. All options we know are of no use, as has been said in this thread already over and over again. Seeing as the mention of popping the mom dominated the response and we won't agree there lets leave it out.
What did you have in mind for some special counter? And why should there be? Why isn't the counter to it the same as the counter to any group of ships of a similar composition? Why does this situation need to be special? |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21920
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 08:28:21 -
[279] - Quote
So you refuse to acknowledge that "popping the mom" does not have anything to do with interference, but is actually ending the incursion? Because that's what it does. It ends it.
It's only interference in the eyes of the greedy people who want to keep milking it.
Yes, you're an incursion runner and thus a rather questionable person to discuss this with.
Anyways.
Feel free to read through the whole thread. There is no need to keep repeating the same things over and over again.
Once you have done that and educated yourself on the "why's" and "how not's" we can keep talking.
I repeat: There is absolutely no need to keep repeating the same **** over and over again, just because there are people who do not want to do so.
You can try this stupid trick with other people.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 08:49:32 -
[280] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:So you refuse to acknowledge that "popping the mom" does not have anything to do with interference, but is actually ending the incursion? Because that's what it does. It ends it.
It's only interference in the eyes of the greedy people who want to keep milking it.
Yes, you're an incursion runner and thus a rather questionable person to discuss this with.
Anyways.
Feel free to read through the whole thread. There is no need to keep repeating the same things over and over again.
Once you have done that and educated yourself on the "why's" and "how not's" we can keep talking.
I repeat: There is absolutely no need to keep repeating the same **** over and over again, just because there are people who do not want to do so.
You can try this stupid trick with other people. Final response because I won't be trolled into getting this thread closed with a mud slinging contest that drowns out the content.
If people are trying to run site and you end those sites it interferes. It's like any other sort of resource interference where one party has the chance to deplete something another is using or exploiting. It's a pretty basic concept. The fact that the act of denial occurs through use of the same mechanic is irrelevant. The way it's being exploited allows that interference to be meaningful to the very people you are trying to effect.
To the other point there is nothing in the thread which justifies special interference. There isn't anything in an incursion pocket that dictates a fleet comp should have anything to fear that it otherwise wouldn't save the complications brought by the content itself. I'd ask why you feel otherwise, and have, but I'm confident you won't answer.
If your argument for this is that the content is too lucrative then the issue lies there, not with a perceived lack of interference. If you can't take down the fleet outside the site and the difference of being in the incursion doesn't make up the slack you don't deserve to take them down.
Also, no, I don't run incursions. I haven't in over a year. I just don't feel your point makes sense and you refuse to clarify. So I guess we're done. |
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21920
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 08:54:06 -
[281] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Final response because I won't be trolled into getting this thread closed with a mud slinging contest that drowns out the content.
If people are trying to run site and you end those sites it interferes. It's like any other sort of resource interference where one party has the chance to deplete something another is using or exploiting. It's a pretty basic concept. The fact that the act of denial occurs through use of the same mechanic is irrelevant. The way it's being exploited allows that interference to be meaningful to the very people you are trying to effect.
To the other point there is nothing in the thread which justifies special interference. There isn't anything in an incursion pocket that dictates a fleet comp should have anything to fear that it otherwise wouldn't save the complications brought by the content itself. I'd ask why you feel otherwise, and have, but I'm confident you won't answer.
If your argument for this is that the content is too lucrative then the issue lies there, not with a perceived lack of interference. If you can't take down the fleet outside the site and the difference of being in the incursion doesn't make up the slack you don't deserve to take them down.
Also, no, I don't run incursions. I haven't in over a year. I just don't feel your point makes sense and you refuse to clarify. So I guess we're done.
It's not trolling just because I refuse to rehash what has been written all over this thread.
Thank you for admitting that you are indeed running, or were running, incursions, and thus are a questionable person to discuss the topic with.
I'm sorry, but "ending" does not in any way or form equal "interference".
Popping the mom would not interfere with running the incursion until the mom shows up.
Also, you show that you did not read through the thread and thus have absolutely nothing valid to say. Simply popping in and demanding to know what has been written already ...
... lol yeah, but calling me a troll. That's all you people do. When you are outmatched the other person is a troll.
You're a hypocrite and never had anything valid to say.
Thanks for your participation.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Memphis Baas
326
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:03:03 -
[282] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Besides, if you want to do something about HS incursions and their risk factor then do it. Mechanics exist in this game that allow you to create risk for them. Easy to say but near impossible to do. You cannot gank these fleets and hope to make anything but a massive loss. They sport hefty tanks, roll with six and up t2 logi ships and pack a lot of firepower. They will rip apart a gank fleet like a knife through butter.
Sorry, Baltec1, but that's bullshit. You guys are cutting through 800+ship fleets with a lot more DPS and tank on a regular basis, but a 40-ship fleet is a problem because of tanked battleships and logi support? Forget about suicide-ganking, you can't apply the same tactic to everything high-sec, and it's getting tired and lame anyway.
An Incursion Fleet is a 40-man bling fleet that is engaged in PVE combat with NPCs that can rip it apart if anything goes wrong with the logi reps or the tank cycles; how hard can it be to disrupt the fight and cause something to "go wrong"? Forget about your -10.0 suicide-gank alts, their sec status is limiting them (as intended), and they won't be able to get to where the action is. Go with neutral alts. And finally, they're organized as "incursion communities", don't tell me it's hard to insert spies to figure out where they're staging and what they're doing, and to disrupt from the inside.
They've managed to organize themselves enough to do the equivalent of 40-man pick-up raids in other MMO's, and are getting world boss purple-level rewards for it. It's admirable, but nowhere near the level of organization that even medium alliances have achieved. But expecting a simple suicide gank to be effective against them is like expecting an afk-cloaker to completely ruin your nullsec alliance.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:03:03 -
[283] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Final response because I won't be trolled into getting this thread closed with a mud slinging contest that drowns out the content.
If people are trying to run site and you end those sites it interferes. It's like any other sort of resource interference where one party has the chance to deplete something another is using or exploiting. It's a pretty basic concept. The fact that the act of denial occurs through use of the same mechanic is irrelevant. The way it's being exploited allows that interference to be meaningful to the very people you are trying to effect.
To the other point there is nothing in the thread which justifies special interference. There isn't anything in an incursion pocket that dictates a fleet comp should have anything to fear that it otherwise wouldn't save the complications brought by the content itself. I'd ask why you feel otherwise, and have, but I'm confident you won't answer.
If your argument for this is that the content is too lucrative then the issue lies there, not with a perceived lack of interference. If you can't take down the fleet outside the site and the difference of being in the incursion doesn't make up the slack you don't deserve to take them down.
Also, no, I don't run incursions. I haven't in over a year. I just don't feel your point makes sense and you refuse to clarify. So I guess we're done. It's not trolling just because I refuse to rehash what has been written all over this thread. Thank you for admitting that you are indeed running, or were running, incursions, and thus are a questionable person to discuss the topic with. I'm sorry, but "ending" does not in any way or form equal "interference". Popping the mom would not interfere with running the incursion until the mom shows up. Also, you show that you did not read through the thread and thus have absolutely nothing valid to say. Simply popping in and demanding to know what has been written already ... ... lol yeah, but calling me a troll. That's all you people do. When you are outmatched the other person is a troll. You're a hypocrite and never had anything valid to say. Thanks for your participation. Should have stuck with my guns on the prior post but failing that:
I opted out because you aren't interested in a conversation. You refuse to defend your point and only deflect, you dismiss the points of others as "stupid tricks" and your 2nd to last line contains sufficient justification for the accusation of troll along side the series of ad hominem fallacies you started punctuating you posts with.
...and here I am taking the bait. I suppose I should congratulate that victory |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21920
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:04:05 -
[284] - Quote
So ... can this be ended now?
There is nothing more to add. Opinions are irrelevant.
What matters is cold, hard reality, of which details can be found spread out in this thread. At least for those who are able to see beyond opinionated bullshitting.
There is no sane way to interfere with incursions at all. Popping the mom does not count, because the mom symbolises the end. Once it's gone the incursion ends and all the farming has been done already.
Furthermore do greedy people, who deliberately not shoot the mom, actually hurt the ingame reality from the perspective of "lore", because they deliberately let millions of people get zombified by the Sanshas.
What CCP should do is cut the income down to a quarter and then see who actually runs them for the "fun" and not for the "greed".
That would be a good step to determine what should be done next.
Dare I say we'd see a huge drop in fleets running incursions ... ... because it is highly likely most people mistake satisfying their ego through isk with "fun".
All relevant details can be found with in this thread.
Anything else I forgot?
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21920
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:07:02 -
[285] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Should have stuck with my guns on the prior post but failing that:
I opted out because you aren't interested in a conversation. You refuse to defend your point and only deflect, you dismiss the points of others as "stupid tricks" and your 2nd to last line contains sufficient justification for the accusation of troll along side the series of ad hominem fallacies you started punctuating you posts with.
...and here I am taking the bait. I suppose I should congratulate that victory There is no need to "defend a point".
You fail to read through the thread and want people to rehash what is already being written. This is complete nonsense and can be dismissed completely. If you wished to participate, you would read through the thread. That's all there is to it.
Furthermore are you mistaking me for someone like you.
There is no "victory". I do not give a single **** about opinions. What matters is facts and reality.
You and so many others come here discussing their opinions, as if that had any relevance at all. Most people are completely incapable of seperating "what they see" with "what is actually going on", thus completely vaporising any "arguments" they have in the first place.
Thank you for your participation.
I will respond again if you have anything relevant to say ... ... but I also will make sure to point out the flaws in what people like you post.
Cheers.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Memphis Baas
326
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:08:07 -
[286] - Quote
No, if you're done with the discussion then stop posting. We'd like to continue to express opinions. Even if rehashed. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
429
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:08:12 -
[287] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote: So ... can this be ended now?
There is nothing more to add. Opinions are irrelevant.
What matters is cold, hard reality, of which details can be found spread out in this thread. At least for those who are able to see beyond opinionated bullshitting.
There is no sane way to interfere with incursions at all. Popping the mom does not count, because the mom symbolises the end. Once it's gone the incursion ends and all the farming has been done already.
Furthermore do greedy people, who deliberately not shoot the mom, actually hurt the ingame reality from the perspective of "lore", because they deliberately let millions of people get zombified by the Sanshas.
What CCP should do is cut the income down to a quarter and then see who actually runs them for the "fun" and not for the "greed".
That would be a good step to determine what should be done next.
Dare I say we'd see a huge drop in fleets running incursions ... ... because it is highly likely most people mistake satisfying their ego through isk with "fun".
All relevant details can be found with in this thread.
Anything else I forgot?
and people might start moving to other profitable parts of space to make isk instead of living in the incursion bubble where they dont need to actually go anywhere because highsec safety and the best money available
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21920
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:11:25 -
[288] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Solecist Project wrote: So ... can this be ended now?
There is nothing more to add. Opinions are irrelevant.
What matters is cold, hard reality, of which details can be found spread out in this thread. At least for those who are able to see beyond opinionated bullshitting.
There is no sane way to interfere with incursions at all. Popping the mom does not count, because the mom symbolises the end. Once it's gone the incursion ends and all the farming has been done already.
Furthermore do greedy people, who deliberately not shoot the mom, actually hurt the ingame reality from the perspective of "lore", because they deliberately let millions of people get zombified by the Sanshas.
What CCP should do is cut the income down to a quarter and then see who actually runs them for the "fun" and not for the "greed".
That would be a good step to determine what should be done next.
Dare I say we'd see a huge drop in fleets running incursions ... ... because it is highly likely most people mistake satisfying their ego through isk with "fun".
All relevant details can be found with in this thread.
Anything else I forgot?
and people might start moving to other profitable parts of space to make isk instead of living in the incursion bubble where they dont need to actually go anywhere because highsec safety and the best money available Well, it would be a start to find out who actually runs them for fun. That would be tremendously helpfull in analysing and fixing the situation. People who start doing other things expose themselves as the ones who only care about the ISK.
What matters is giving others a way to interfere with what these people are doing.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:15:15 -
[289] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Should have stuck with my guns on the prior post but failing that:
I opted out because you aren't interested in a conversation. You refuse to defend your point and only deflect, you dismiss the points of others as "stupid tricks" and your 2nd to last line contains sufficient justification for the accusation of troll along side the series of ad hominem fallacies you started punctuating you posts with.
...and here I am taking the bait. I suppose I should congratulate that victory There is no need to "defend a point". You fail to read through the thread and want people to rehash what is already being written. This is complete nonsense and can be dismissed completely. If you wished to participate, you would read through the thread. That's all there is to it. Furthermore are you mistaking me for someone like you. There is no "victory". I do not give a single **** about opinions. What matters is facts and reality. You and so many others come here discussing their opinions, as if that had any relevance at all. Most people are completely incapable of seperating "what they see" with "what is actually going on", thus completely vaporising any "arguments" they have in the first place. Thank you for your participation. I will respond again if you have anything relevant to say ... ... but I also will make sure to point out the flaws in what people like you post. Cheers. You haven't actually pointed to any flaw in my post, just lodged insults, also I haven't objected to the idea of your proposed income nerf, just asked why the rules need changed in incursions regarding what a person or group can or can't interfere with. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21920
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:18:43 -
[290] - Quote
And I told you that you can read through the thread and find out yourself. If you refuse to do so, then you have no ground to join in.
Just try to think about it for a minute. Every few pages some new person would come up and ask for the exact same thing.
This is actual reality in so many other threads and it leads exactly nowhere.
Thus ... read up on what's written. It's there for a reason.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:21:29 -
[291] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:And I told you that you can read through the thread and find out yourself. If you refuse to do so, then you have no ground to join in.
Just try to think about it for a minute. Every few pages some new person would come up and ask for the exact same thing.
This is actual reality in so many other threads and it leads exactly nowhere.
Thus ... read up on what's written. It's there for a reason. I've been in this thread reading and responding for a while, well before this chain started with you. There have been posts pointing out the lack of ability to interfere, but as stated, none justifying it. Why should that capacity exist only in the case of an incursion? No one has answered that. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
8000
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:33:50 -
[292] - Quote
Maybe not remove them completely, just scale them, so the easiest and smallest sites are in High sec, like with exploration sites and plexes. Small fleets could do them for a profit, but not too big.
GëíGïüGëí Technical Support
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21920
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:34:57 -
[293] - Quote
*sighs*
Because it exists for literally everything else that is being done in space, except AFK cloaking, which is a completely different matter and not the topic.
(AFK cloaking looks like it is going to be addressed, btw)
As you already know by reading through the thread, there is absolutely no sane way to interfere.
Wardeccing is pointless, as they will drop corp and reform or simply stay in NPC corps.
Suicide ganking is pointless, as there is no sane way to stop an incursion fleet.
As baltec1 pointed out, it's not trivial to shoot down a fleet of battleships with logi support.
The cost of doing so would far outweigh any potential benefit and still would not make anyone actually leave the field.
It has been answered already.
You are asking the wrong question.
It's not "Why should that capacity exist only in the case of an incursion?". This makes me wonder if you actually play the game.
It's "Why should incursions be the only thing that can't reasonably be interfered with by players?"
Because ... as has been written already ... it's simply not doable. Incursion runners can run their incursions day and night, all day long.
If there was a sane way to interfere then people would obviously be doing it.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1410
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:52:09 -
[294] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:*sighs*
Because it exists for literally everything else that is being done in space, except AFK cloaking, which is a completely different matter and not the topic.
(AFK cloaking looks like it is going to be addressed, btw)
As you already know by reading through the thread, there is absolutely no sane way to interfere.
Wardeccing is pointless, as they will drop corp and reform or simply stay in NPC corps.
Suicide ganking is pointless, as there is no sane way to stop an incursion fleet.
As baltec1 pointed out, it's not trivial to shoot down a fleet of battleships with logi support.
The cost of doing so would far outweigh any potential benefit and still would not make anyone actually leave the field.
It has been answered already.
You are asking the wrong question.
It's not "Why should that capacity exist only in the case of an incursion?". This makes me wonder if you actually play the game.
It's "Why should incursions be the only thing that can't reasonably be interfered with by players?"
Because ... as has been written already ... it's simply not doable. Incursion runners can run their incursions day and night, all day long.
If there was a sane way to interfere then people would obviously be doing it. The question you ask is actually simple to answer. The answer is, if other activities used similar fleet compositions they would be just as difficult and unfeasible to interfere with. Mining doesn't prohibit such a composition. Level 4 missions don't prohibit such a composition. They are highly unnecessary and as such don't occur save rare occasions if at all, but doable to the same effect.
I'm aware a tanked BS group is non-trivial to take down, especially with logi support, which seems to be the point of such a configuration. So to the question of why incursions are unique in regard to their inability to be interfered with, it's because they more or less mandate resilient configurations.
So I ask as a hypothetical, if I run such a config while missioning, does that create the need to alter missions to allow additional interference?
The fact that the content mandates you harden up reducing player capacity to interfere is certainly a reason for reducing income because a factor of risk is all but removed, I just don't see the connection to otherwise changing the rules of how ships work together.
To me this is no different to mining in a max tank skiff philosophically; you won't lose your ship unless someone is really determined despite the cost or you make a really dumb mistake. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:52:11 -
[295] - Quote
If anyone takes the time to think it through there are multiple ways to interfere with Incursions, that you do not do so and whine that its "to hard" and then call for Incursions to be nerfed. That reeks of self-entitlement worse than any that I have seen by what you call carebears.
Some people started going off about balance, well the inbalance created by a number of people who get their ISK, plex themselves and hardly play for the rest of the month creates what sort of imbalance, jealousy perhaps. If you want to talk about imbalance what about the one caused by Technicium which effectively turned null sec into the wasteland it is now apart from those that had the Tech, yeah Incursions are not balanced and are ruining the game, its a drop in the ocean compared to the Tech one whose affects are still being felt and will do so in June when fleets of Tech funded Troll Lokis will descend on Provi...
The Gankbears in here calling for a nerf are full of self-righteous self entitlement and should be treated with the contempt they deserve, you plonkers win Eve you know that...
Ella's Snack bar
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Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
53
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 09:56:08 -
[296] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Not a direct reference, I believe it was CCP Karkur on the German forums but I don't speak german well enough to put together a search string. Given Fozzie has also come out and said Null earns plenty enough isk, that reinforces the likelyhood that most of those bounties do come from Null.
Hmm, gonna give that a shot after work.
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Anyway, back to incursions and some fun maths. Lets assume LP adds enough value to bring that average up to 10 Trillion per month for incursion income overall. Exact maths actually depends on the internal breakdown of VG's to HQ's from memory. And that all of this income is in high, we know for sure that low & null incursions do get run occasionally but we will assume that the percentage this adds to overall income is negligible. And lets assume a 30 day month as an 'average' length month. This means that there are 720 individual man hours in the month.
If we guess at a true average income of 100 Mil/Hour for an incursion pilot the following occurs. 10,000,000,000,000/100,000,000 = 100,000 Hours of income. 100,000/720 = 138(.88) pilots per hour supported.
Now I believe it's fair to say that Incursions are pretty much fully utilised with contests in HQ & VG's being common enough. And more people being involved would simply result in more contests and more pilots getting 0 income, rather than more fleets making full income. So..... we have an activity that can at any one time support only 140 pilots give or take a few at 100 Mil/Hour. Unless Null & Low start packing out their incursions. This may be 500-700 pilots a day if we assume 6 hour play sessions which doesn't seem that unreasonable, or maybe as high as 1000 a day if we drop to 3 hour play sessions which is short. Is it unreasonable for 1000 pilots who have mastered co-operation in a fleet, typically using deadspace fittings, pirate/T2 hulls, and are under a good FC, to make 100/Hour. These are not people solo farming, there is real risk even from the NPC's themselves let alone player intervention in the sites, even if we are just talking High sec.
If you find that number of players supported at that income unreasonable given the skills and co-operation involved, well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. However, the fun part about those numbers, if you claim 150/Hour income as the normal, those numbers drop to 600 pilots globally supported across an entire day. And under 100 pilots at any one time.
Please try to stay with the skirmish, don't go back to the war. LP don't contribute to ISK inflation. It doesn't matter if it's only 1000 pilots who achieve 20% of the current ISK influx. Risk from scripted entities (Sansha NPCs) has nothing to do with ISK springing. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21921
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 10:01:57 -
[297] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The question you ask is actually simple to answer. The answer is, if other activities used similar fleet compositions they would be just as difficult and unfeasible to interfere with. Mining doesn't prohibit such a composition. Level 4 missions don't prohibit such a composition. They are highly unnecessary and as such don't occur save rare occasions if at all, but doable to the same effect.
I'm aware a tanked BS group is non-trivial to take down, especially with logi support, which seems to be the point of such a configuration. So to the question of why incursions are unique in regard to their inability to be interfered with, it's because they more or less mandate resilient configurations.
So I ask as a hypothetical, if I run such a config while missioning, does that create the need to alter missions to allow additional interference?
The fact that the content mandates you harden up reducing player capacity to interfere is certainly a reason for reducing income because a factor of risk is all but removed, I just don't see the connection to otherwise changing the rules of how ships work together.
To me this is no different to mining in a max tank skiff philosophically; you won't lose your ship unless someone is really determined despite the cost or you make a really dumb mistake. The reason why I believe interference should be allowed, is because of the insanely high income people can make without any risk whatsoever.
We have covered the risk factor extensively already and I won't go through that again.
I never cared about the income. The only reason why I bought up "cutting the income" was to see who actually really cares about running incursions and who is just a greedy person.
From my POV they can have the money, but then there should be a way to properly interfere.
You are right that similar fleet compositions would make it similar hard to interfere, but I'm not sure that counts as argument, because that's not what we are seeing in reality.
Actually, I'm sure most people would cheer if mining fleets would be set up this way. A known counter to such a fleet would be bumping, btw.
Bumping mining ships out of range of the logi is rather hard (hugh jass logi range) ... ... but bumping them out of range of asteroids isn't.
An effective counter to that would be webbing them, but that would alter the fittings of the fleet considerably.
In any way, there is another big difference between mining, mission running and incursions.
Anyone who wants to interfere with the incursioneers (isthatevenaword?) would also have to deal with the Sanshas.
Incursioneers are indirectly protected by Sanshas, as they would attack those who try to interfere as well, making it significantly harder.
Belt rats or mission NPCs aren't even close to the threat Sanshas are.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Kamala
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 10:05:20 -
[298] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Why do you connect fun with income? The fun should be shooting them and fleeting up ... ... not the amount of ISK you make.
Says who? |
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous WINMATAR.
36199
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 10:11:58 -
[299] - Quote
RAWR
and while we're at it, how about frigate-doable sites? like, get a few kestrels with bursts for logi, do incursion sites like that.
sort of an entry-level incursion site for newbies.
unless there isn't already such a site... is there?
meow.
Critically Preposterous is recruiting! Good fights, all day, every day!
I am a cat.
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
430
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 10:13:11 -
[300] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Solecist Project wrote:*sighs*
Because it exists for literally everything else that is being done in space, except AFK cloaking, which is a completely different matter and not the topic.
(AFK cloaking looks like it is going to be addressed, btw)
As you already know by reading through the thread, there is absolutely no sane way to interfere.
Wardeccing is pointless, as they will drop corp and reform or simply stay in NPC corps.
Suicide ganking is pointless, as there is no sane way to stop an incursion fleet.
As baltec1 pointed out, it's not trivial to shoot down a fleet of battleships with logi support.
The cost of doing so would far outweigh any potential benefit and still would not make anyone actually leave the field.
It has been answered already.
You are asking the wrong question.
It's not "Why should that capacity exist only in the case of an incursion?". This makes me wonder if you actually play the game.
It's "Why should incursions be the only thing that can't reasonably be interfered with by players?"
Because ... as has been written already ... it's simply not doable. Incursion runners can run their incursions day and night, all day long.
If there was a sane way to interfere then people would obviously be doing it. The question you ask is actually simple to answer. The answer is, if other activities used similar fleet compositions they would be just as difficult and unfeasible to interfere with. Mining doesn't prohibit such a composition. Level 4 missions don't prohibit such a composition. They are highly unnecessary and as such don't occur save rare occasions if at all, but doable to the same effect. I'm aware a tanked BS group is non-trivial to take down, especially with logi support, which seems to be the point of such a configuration. So to the question of why incursions are unique in regard to their inability to be interfered with, it's because they more or less mandate resilient configurations. So I ask as a hypothetical, if I run such a config while missioning, does that create the need to alter missions to allow additional interference? The fact that the content mandates you harden up reducing player capacity to interfere is certainly a reason for reducing income because a factor of risk is all but removed, I just don't see the connection to otherwise changing the rules of how ships work together. To me this is no different to mining in a max tank skiff philosophically; you won't lose your ship unless someone is really determined despite the cost or you make a really dumb mistake.
mining and missioning doesnt supply near as much isk as incursions for the effort, miners and missioners do also look to other parts of space for better minerals and better missions in which case they are risking protection for the better payout, incursion runners dont need to because they dont need to take the risk because highsec pays them the most under the undefeatable safety feature (concord). again incursion runners dont need to leave highsec to make the best isk in the game which is wrong.
incursions are the only thing that dont scale like every other activity in eve, payouts in highsec 31mil isk, nullsec 45mil isk, 14mil isk difference between taking hardly any risk to taking the most risk in the game, that doesnt scale nearly enough to warrant jumping to null for an incursion. damn incursions in highsec dont even have rats on the gates
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous WINMATAR.
36203
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 10:18:27 -
[301] - Quote
Kamala wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Why do you connect fun with income? The fun should be shooting them and fleeting up ... ... not the amount of ISK you make. Says who? me. Ed Gruberman.
Critically Preposterous is recruiting! Good fights, all day, every day!
I am a cat.
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21921
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 10:27:48 -
[302] - Quote
Kamala wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Why do you connect fun with income? The fun should be shooting them and fleeting up ... ... not the amount of ISK you make. Says who? Those who understand how it works. Satisfying greed is not connected to what "fun" is. "Fun" a completely different thing.
Finding satisfaction in filling your pockets with space pixels is compensation. Filling the wallet is secondary. What matters here is the perception of "being better", or "filling the hole in yourself".
Related to "consumerism" btw.
You probably don't know ... ... but marketing isn't about selling you something ... ... it's about making you want something.
Companies don't sell you things ... ... they make you feel inadequate when you don't have them.
That's good marketing.
Some try to sell you "lifestyle" or "good feelings". They make you believe that you miss out on something. See also: Coca Cola.
Then there are those who want to sell you the idea of importance. They make you believe that you are someone by owning something. See also: Apple, Ikea, Car manufacturers, many others.
Even though you might wrongly *interpret* it as "fun" to fill your pockets with ISK, or buying crap you don't actually need for your life, in the end it's nothing more but compensation. Amassing wealth from greed is nothing else than the desire to be better than others ... see "feeling inadequate".
Usually people reject this instead of simply educating themselves about ... ... well ... themselves.
Glad I was able to answer your question.
I could write a few pages about this. About amarrians. Carebears.
But ... no thanks, not getting paid for it.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15711
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:36:46 -
[303] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:
Sorry, Baltec1, but that's bullshit. You guys are cutting through 800+ship fleets with a lot more DPS and tank on a regular basis, but a 40-ship fleet is a problem because of tanked battleships and logi support? Forget about suicide-ganking, you can't apply the same tactic to everything high-sec, and it's getting tired and lame anyway.
An Incursion Fleet is a 40-man bling fleet that is engaged in PVE combat with NPCs that can rip it apart if anything goes wrong with the logi reps or the tank cycles; how hard can it be to disrupt the fight and cause something to "go wrong"? Forget about your -10.0 suicide-gank alts, their sec status is limiting them (as intended), and they won't be able to get to where the action is. Go with neutral alts. And finally, they're organized as "incursion communities", don't tell me it's hard to insert spies to figure out where they're staging and what they're doing, and to disrupt from the inside.
They've managed to organize themselves enough to do the equivalent of 40-man pick-up raids in other MMO's, and are getting world boss purple-level rewards for it. It's admirable, but nowhere near the level of organization that even medium alliances have achieved. But expecting a simple suicide gank to be effective against them is like expecting an afk-cloaker to completely ruin your nullsec alliance.
Feel free to tell us how you would attack an incursion fleet.
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21925
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:39:18 -
[304] - Quote
Well actually the secstatus and faction police is the least worry of them all.
Typical.
I too would like to know, just like baltec.
Let's wait for it .....
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15711
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:43:01 -
[305] - Quote
Violet Hurst wrote:
Please try to stay with the skirmish, don't go back to the war. LP don't contribute to ISK inflation. It doesn't matter if it's only 1000 pilots who achieve 20% of the current ISK influx. Risk from scripted entities (Sansha NPCs) has nothing to do with ISK springing.
We are not talking about isk inflation we are talking about individual income which is where highsec is out of whack.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:43:29 -
[306] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Well actually the secstatus and faction police is the least worry of them all.
Typical.
I too would like to know, just like baltec.
Let's wait for it .....
Call to nerf incursions because its more difficult than ganking Retrievers...
Ella's Snack bar
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15711
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:45:53 -
[307] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Well actually the secstatus and faction police is the least worry of them all.
Typical.
I too would like to know, just like baltec.
Let's wait for it ..... Call to nerf incursions because its more difficult than ganking Retrievers...
No, they need dealing with because their reward is out of whack.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21925
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:46:30 -
[308] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Violet Hurst wrote:
Please try to stay with the skirmish, don't go back to the war. LP don't contribute to ISK inflation. It doesn't matter if it's only 1000 pilots who achieve 20% of the current ISK influx. Risk from scripted entities (Sansha NPCs) has nothing to do with ISK springing.
We are not talking about isk inflation we are talking about individual income which is where highsec is out of whack. Sorry, but no where in history did nerfing highsec/buffing othersec ... ... actually make people leave it.
That has been tried and tried again and it never worked.
Your point, afaik, that people stay in highsec because of the money is invalid.
People stay in highsec, because it's safe and easy.
If you want your sheep to play in nullsec ... ... then ask for a feature that makes nullsec safer.
In the end you might regret it, because you'll only attract worthless carebears anyway.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:52:31 -
[309] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Well actually the secstatus and faction police is the least worry of them all.
Typical.
I too would like to know, just like baltec.
Let's wait for it ..... Call to nerf incursions because its more difficult than ganking Retrievers... No, they need dealing with because their reward is out of whack.
Call to nerf Incursions because it hurts their feelings that people who they despise can have fun and they find it too hard to stop them from having that fun, so the only way is to keep calling for it to be nerfed...
Ella's Snack bar
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15713
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:53:12 -
[310] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:
We are not talking about isk inflation we are talking about individual income which is where highsec is out of whack.
Sorry, but no where in history did nerfing highsec/buffing othersec ... ... actually make people leave it.
[/quote]
Dont care about people with no interest in taking any risk. If CCP are going to make this new sov to work then they have to deal all areas of space. Fozziesov is going to require people to live in null to hold space so the need to make it worth living out there. Right now highsec offers better reward so that needs to change or fozziesov will fail.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4373
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:53:19 -
[311] - Quote
[quote=Kaldi Tsukaya]Drop Concord protection in incursion systems. That's a definite nope.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21925
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:53:47 -
[312] - Quote
lol typical carebearspeak.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15713
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:55:29 -
[313] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Call to nerf Incursions because it hurts their feelings that people who they despise can have fun and they find it too hard to stop them from having that fun, so the only way is to keep calling for it to be nerfed...
Why would I go to null sov when I can earn twice as much isk in highsec for very little risk and effort?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:56:05 -
[314] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dont care about people with no interest in taking any risk. If CCP are going to make this new sov to work then they have to deal all areas of space. Fozziesov is going to require people to live in null to hold space so the need to make it worth living out there. Right now highsec offers better reward so that needs to change or fozziesov will fail.
And here is the reason, they hate it that people can have fun in making themselves space rich and they cannot get at them without effort, its all about frustration...
Ella's Snack bar
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Reiisha
Repracor Industries
741
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 11:59:05 -
[315] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Lan Wang wrote:considering they not long ago pretty much buffed them... but yeah they do pay too much for the risk involved If they were a temporary thing, as they should (sanshas invasion), ok after we deal with them, its done/ dealt with. But they stayed, and its been killing a major part of the game slowly but surely. It was good when they started, but have them as a regular thing is just terrible. CCP could have incursions as an event, every now and then sanshas try to invade highsec for like a month or so, then they stop for 3 or 4 months. Or just lower their payouts to a balanced level as I said in the first post, instead of 250mil per hour, have them at around 100mil per hour. And have VGs, assaults and HQs pay all the same. There is no need to have HQs paying more than VGs IMO (but thats a different story) could also boost scouts and give people an incentive to do them.
I'm wondering whether this is a hidden 'i want to gank incursion gangs' whine at this point.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:00:16 -
[316] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Call to nerf Incursions because it hurts their feelings that people who they despise can have fun and they find it too hard to stop them from having that fun, so the only way is to keep calling for it to be nerfed...
Why would I go to null sov when I can earn twice as much isk in highsec for very little risk and effort?
Because those figures are wrong and another poster already proved just how few people can efficiently run incursions.
But why are you getting so uptight, soon you will have the new structures that will enable you to have mission agants in null sec, that's great news for you guys isn't it?
Ella's Snack bar
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15715
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:01:03 -
[317] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
And here is the reason, they hate it that people can have fun in making themselves space rich and they cannot get at them without effort, its all about frustration...
Try reading what people say before responding, I said nothing of the sort.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21926
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:01:17 -
[318] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dont care about people with no interest in taking any risk. If CCP are going to make this new sov to work then they have to deal all areas of space. Fozziesov is going to require people to live in null to hold space so the need to make it worth living out there. Right now highsec offers better reward so that needs to change or fozziesov will fail. But you are missing the point, baltec.
No matter the rewards, as soon as people see danger, they will either dock up or simply not come at all.
I have stopped believing that the majority of nullseccers is any different than the majority of highseccers.
You will have the best chances by promising people security.
I am not for or against null ... ... but the money approach doesn't work.
It caters to the greedy people ... ... and those don't want to lose. Besides being crappy people to have around anyway.
If people in nullsec really cared about nullsec ... ... then they'd not care about rewards.
I've seen plenty of undone sites when I moved towards VFK ... ... with people docked up and not running them.
I would run them. Why? Because I am not a coward and I don't care about relative income.
Think about it ... nerfing income anywhere else will yield nothing. Buffing income in null equally will yield nothing.
The isk centric way of thinking is the wrong approach. What you need is people who aren't greedy and/or cowards ... ... or providing CONCORD like security ... ... or a nationwide SRP.
I have been watching this for years now ... ... and people always ask for the same **** ... ... with the absolute same outcome every time.
But hey... why listen... just keep repeating the same thing ad infinitum...
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15715
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:04:00 -
[319] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Because those figures are wrong and another poster already proved just how few people can efficiently run incursions.
Nobody has posted any facts here to back up your argument. Average income from anoms is 60 mil/hr, incursion income of 120 mil/hr is not unrealistic.
Dracvlad wrote: But why are you getting so uptight, soon you will have the new structures that will enable you to have mission agants in null sec, that's great news for you guys isn't it?
We have no details yet on this system.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21926
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:04:25 -
[320] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dont care about people with no interest in taking any risk. If CCP are going to make this new sov to work then they have to deal all areas of space. Fozziesov is going to require people to live in null to hold space so the need to make it worth living out there. Right now highsec offers better reward so that needs to change or fozziesov will fail. And here is the reason, they hate it that people can have fun in making themselves space rich and they cannot get at them without effort, its all about frustration... Compensation != fun.
You are nothing more than a hypocrite and hater. You just hide it better than the rest.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:05:15 -
[321] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
And here is the reason, they hate it that people can have fun in making themselves space rich and they cannot get at them without effort, its all about frustration...
Try reading what people say before responding, I said nothing of the sort.
Yes you did, its there in your post, you want them nerfed because they are not in low sec or 0.0 because they can use their bling ships in a lower risk environment and you have to work to kill them and the result is not certain, so you don't try.
I read all your posts and that is what you are saying, you even said the Goons had tried to hit them and found them not profitable enough and too risky.
Ella's Snack bar
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12815
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:05:50 -
[322] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:If anyone takes the time to think it through there are multiple ways to interfere with Incursions
List some, liar, or admit that you're blowing smoke.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:06:35 -
[323] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Because those figures are wrong and another poster already proved just how few people can efficiently run incursions.
Nobody has posted any facts here to back up your argument. Average income from anoms is 60 mil/hr, incursion income of 120 mil/hr is not unrealistic. Dracvlad wrote: But why are you getting so uptight, soon you will have the new structures that will enable you to have mission agants in null sec, that's great news for you guys isn't it?
We have no details yet on this system.
Your figures are totally wrong, you are understating the anoms by a major amount, why do you keep lying all the time?
Ella's Snack bar
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:08:44 -
[324] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote:If anyone takes the time to think it through there are multiple ways to interfere with Incursions
List some, liar, or admit that you're blowing smoke.
Its pretty obvious how to go about it, read the thread there are quite a few details in it, then just extrapolate from that...
Ella's Snack bar
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21927
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:08:54 -
[325] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote:If anyone takes the time to think it through there are multiple ways to interfere with Incursions
List some, liar, or admit that you're blowing smoke. Every single one who has been called out on it was unable to bring up anything BUT smoke and bullshit ... ... mostly because they have no clue of the matter anyway.
Anyhow... all you people only ever thinking about isk. That's so shortsighted, it's incredible.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12815
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:09:42 -
[326] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote:If anyone takes the time to think it through there are multiple ways to interfere with Incursions
List some, liar, or admit that you're blowing smoke. Its pretty obvious how to go about it, read the thread there are quite a few details in it, then just extrapolate from that...
So you have none, and you were lying.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15718
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:10:41 -
[327] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Your figures are totally wrong, you are understating the anoms by a major amount, why do you keep lying all the time?
You dont leave highsec and have never run anoms in dek. Yet you are calling the people who have figured out how to squeeze the most isk out of every activity a liar?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Kamala
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:10:52 -
[328] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Those who understand how it works.
What's fun is individual and subjective, it's not for you or others to define what's fun or how to play in a sandbox.
Solecist Project wrote:You probably don't know ... ... but marketing isn't about selling you something ... ... it's about making you want something.
Companies don't sell you things ... ... they make you feel inadequate when you don't have them.
That's good marketing.
Some try to sell you "lifestyle" or "good feelings". They make you believe that you miss out on something. See also: Coca Cola.
Then there are those who want to sell you the idea of importance. They make you believe that you are someone by owning something. See also: Apple, Ikea, Car manufacturers, many others.
Pointless condescending off-topic waffle.
Solecist Project wrote:or buying crap you don't actually need for your life, in the end it's nothing more but compensation. Amassing wealth from greed is nothing else than the desire to be better than others ... see "feeling inadequate".
Usually people reject this instead of simply educating themselves about ... ... well ... themselves.
You're projecting again.
Solecist Project wrote:I could write a few pages about this.
Please no. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
434
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:12:54 -
[329] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Because those figures are wrong and another poster already proved just how few people can efficiently run incursions.
Nobody has posted any facts here to back up your argument. Average income from anoms is 60 mil/hr, incursion income of 120 mil/hr is not unrealistic. Dracvlad wrote: But why are you getting so uptight, soon you will have the new structures that will enable you to have mission agants in null sec, that's great news for you guys isn't it?
We have no details yet on this system. Your figures are totally wrong, you are understating the anoms by a major amount, why do you keep lying all the time?
not really an ishtar in null will get around 20mil a tick give or take, 1 tick = 20mins, x 3 = 60mil an hour, with a carrier you can get to around 30+mil an hour = thats 90mil an hour for risking 2.5bil worth of slow a$$ carrier, which get lost quite often in null
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Blizzaro
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
15
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:13:11 -
[330] - Quote
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAH
CCP Please remove capital escalations CCP Please remove nullsec afk ratting CCP Please remove null anoms
CCP Please remove this wonderful content that has created a great number of public communitys as well as ganks and drama.
Its only easy because we know how to do it, it has taken years of trial and error to get to where we are now.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:14:24 -
[331] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Your figures are totally wrong, you are understating the anoms by a major amount, why do you keep lying all the time?
You dont leave highsec and have never run anoms in dek. Yet you are calling the people who have figured out how to squeeze the most isk out of every activity a liar?
I have run anoms in 0.0 and got a lot more than 60m an hours, if that is squeezing the most ISK out of that activity then you are either a fool or a liar, I was doing 110m an hour in Cobalt Edge and that ignored the selling on of escalations...
Ella's Snack bar
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Blizzaro
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
15
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:14:53 -
[332] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote:If anyone takes the time to think it through there are multiple ways to interfere with Incursions
List some, liar, or admit that you're blowing smoke.
Anyone who has done them can come up with creative ways of disrupting them sadly you just want to be fleet warped and hit f1 for a killmail so I am not sure your brain could understand the mechanics involved. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12815
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:15:54 -
[333] - Quote
Blizzaro wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote:If anyone takes the time to think it through there are multiple ways to interfere with Incursions
List some, liar, or admit that you're blowing smoke. Anyone who has done them can come up with creative ways of disrupting them sadly you just want to be fleet warped and hit f1 for a killmail so I am not sure your brain could understand the mechanics involved.
List some.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:16:44 -
[334] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Because those figures are wrong and another poster already proved just how few people can efficiently run incursions.
Nobody has posted any facts here to back up your argument. Average income from anoms is 60 mil/hr, incursion income of 120 mil/hr is not unrealistic. Dracvlad wrote: But why are you getting so uptight, soon you will have the new structures that will enable you to have mission agants in null sec, that's great news for you guys isn't it?
We have no details yet on this system. Your figures are totally wrong, you are understating the anoms by a major amount, why do you keep lying all the time? not really an ishtar in null will get around 20mil a tick give or take, 1 tick = 20mins, x 3 = 60mil an hour, with a carrier you can get to around 30+mil an hour = thats 90mil an hour for risking 2.5bil worth of slow a$$ carrier, which get lost quite often in null
I never lost a carrier..., its all a question of risk management!
Ella's Snack bar
|
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
435
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:18:27 -
[335] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Your figures are totally wrong, you are understating the anoms by a major amount, why do you keep lying all the time?
You dont leave highsec and have never run anoms in dek. Yet you are calling the people who have figured out how to squeeze the most isk out of every activity a liar? I have run anoms in 0.0 and got a lot more than 60m an hours, if that is squeezing the most ISK out of that activity then you are either a fool or a liar, I was doing 110m an hour in Cobalt Edge and that ignored the selling on of escalations...
so there you have it null escalations vs highsec safety incursions = same isk/hour, clearly not balanced huh, what were you using to make 110mil an hour?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21928
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:20:30 -
[336] - Quote
Weaklings. (:
List some, if you are so sure. We'll pick them apart, one by one, because you people just talk out of your inexperienced asses anyway. :)
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15721
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:20:45 -
[337] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
I have run anoms in 0.0 and got a lot more than 60m an hours, if that is squeezing the most ISK out of that activity then you are either a fool or a liar, I was doing 110m an hour in Cobalt Edge and that ignored the selling on of escalations...
No you weren't.
Provide the ship and fit please.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21928
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:22:47 -
[338] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
I have run anoms in 0.0 and got a lot more than 60m an hours, if that is squeezing the most ISK out of that activity then you are either a fool or a liar, I was doing 110m an hour in Cobalt Edge and that ignored the selling on of escalations...
No you weren't. Provide the ship and fit please. Btw technically he's right about saying he never lost a carrier. When you have none, you can't lose one.
Anyhow I suggest that you stop eating the hatebait.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Melenos
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:23:07 -
[339] - Quote
I make a lot more with explo. Nef explo plz.
Regarding incursions: The isk/hour isn't that great., Also you loose one shiny ship to the ocasional sucide ganks and you're prett much lost a months income. So, not that troublesome.
Also, i feel like most of the time the people that complaining are those oh-so-hardcore 1-jump-in-lowsec self-declared pirates who simply want more easy gank targets. But guys, the isk you destroy need to be generated somehow, so let the carebears be carebears. |
Leannor
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
156
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:23:26 -
[340] - Quote
To be honest, make Incursion more an evolving story line, rather than semi-random spawn events that have no reall storyline within eve.
Like the ever evolving storyline of the human players and empirical bloc's around 0.0, empire should actually have dynamic, unpredicatble conflicts that evolve over time. Not these random things.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21929
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:26:11 -
[341] - Quote
Melenos wrote: I make a lot more with explo. Nef explo plz.
Regarding incursions: The isk/hour isn't that great., Also you loose one shiny ship to the ocasional sucide ganks and you're prett much lost a months income. So, not that troublesome.
Also, i feel like most of the time the people that complaining are those oh-so-hardcore 1-jump-in-lowsec self-declared pirates who simply want more easy gank targets. But guys, the isk you destroy need to be generated somehow, so let the carebears be carebears.
NPC alt bait, beware.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:26:33 -
[342] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Your figures are totally wrong, you are understating the anoms by a major amount, why do you keep lying all the time?
You dont leave highsec and have never run anoms in dek. Yet you are calling the people who have figured out how to squeeze the most isk out of every activity a liar? I have run anoms in 0.0 and got a lot more than 60m an hours, if that is squeezing the most ISK out of that activity then you are either a fool or a liar, I was doing 110m an hour in Cobalt Edge and that ignored the selling on of escalations... so there you have it null escalations vs highsec safety incursions = same isk/hour, clearly not balanced huh, what were you using to make 110mil an hour?
I said that was not including the escalations, which I was selling on to people and I made a lot of ISK from that, I was making 110m an hour with a Chimera using fighters and a Shield fit Pulse Oracle just from the anom bounties in Cobalt Edge. At this point you will say doh you are using more than one character and say something about that, but I am comparing what I did as compared to an AFK Ishtar, which is efficient in baltec1's terms in that it allows the Goon do do other things while earning ISK.
Ella's Snack bar
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12817
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:29:22 -
[343] - Quote
Still waiting on that supposedly easy list, Drac.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10816
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:30:04 -
[344] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
An imbalance compared to what exactly? As far as I know incursions also exist in Lowsec, and Nullsec. So where exactly is this imbalance?
How many times must it be explained before "you people" admit that you don't care lol?
And ask yourself why low and null incursions go undone while high sec spawned "incursion communites" in which 5 bil+ fit pirate battleships are normal. Hint, it starts with C and ends with ONCORD.
This means low and null incursions are a non-issue. High sec incursions have to be compared to content people actually use (FW missions, lvl 5 missions. Lvl 4 missions in high, low and npc null, null anomalies , wormhoe anomalies and sigs etc).
Ganking is a form of disruption, you're the one talking about disruption.
Quote: (also please don't include me with "you guys" thanks. I have never done a single incursion, and probably never will.)
Well, I've spent months at a time doing incursions and I'm primarily a PVE player (that means I know this stuff).
Why, exactly, would you deem to comment on something you have zero knowledge about again? That's about as smart as me (a guy, don't let the girl avatar fool you) describing for everyone here the experience of child birth to actual women when the entire extent of my knowledge is "I was in the hospital on a different floor when my wife gave birth" lol.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1113
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:30:15 -
[345] - Quote
Wait, are we really comparing afktar income to a fleet operation of multiple billions of battleships?
Really?
Reaaaaaaaally?
Also, one can make 200m/hour clean in a mere C3 with yourself and an alt...incursions...pfffffft |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
435
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:31:21 -
[346] - Quote
sorry meant anoms, escalations bring a substantial increase in risk, baltecs numbers are right for a single char, obviously using 2 chars will bring you more isk, add 2 chars to your incursions and boom you've doubled your income, it works both ways
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:31:49 -
[347] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Still waiting on that supposedly easy list, Drac.
First of all you incorrectly used the word easy, it takes effort, so people call for the nerfing of incursions as the easy option.
Ella's Snack bar
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12817
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:32:41 -
[348] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Still waiting on that supposedly easy list, Drac. First of all you incorrectly used the word easy, it takes effort, so people call for the nerfing of incursions as the easy option.
Don't lie about what you said. You said that if "anyone takes the time" that they are apparent.
List some, then. Or admit that you lied.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:34:12 -
[349] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:sorry meant anoms, escalations bring a substantial increase in risk, baltecs numbers are right for a single char, obviously using 2 chars will bring you more isk, add 2 chars to your incursions and boom you've doubled your income, it works both ways
Thats where the fun disingenuous and lying comes to the fore, you see Mr Goon has one character spreading Goon joy around Eve while his ratting Ishtar is earning a lower level of ISK then he would get as a player paying full attention, the same attention level that an incursion runner is running.
Thats what he means by super efficient, its not what I mean by super efficient, but if you want to work your numbers based on 60m thats your issue?
Ella's Snack bar
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:35:34 -
[350] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Still waiting on that supposedly easy list, Drac. First of all you incorrectly used the word easy, it takes effort, so people call for the nerfing of incursions as the easy option. Don't lie about what you said. You said that if "anyone takes the time" that they are apparent. List some, then. Or admit that you lied.
You need to put time and effort into it, its not like rolling up to a retreiver with a Venture, scan it for tank then warp the catalysts in, but then again it shouldn't be like that should it?
Ella's Snack bar
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12817
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:35:39 -
[351] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: Thats where the fun disingenuous and lying comes to the fore
Says the person trying to justify the obscenity that is highsec incursions by lying about how they're vulnerable to your imaginary ways of killing them?
That's so rich, mynnna has to look up to see it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15722
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:35:41 -
[352] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Wait, are we really comparing afktar income to a fleet operation of multiple billions of battleships?
Really?
Reaaaaaaaally?
Also, one can make 200m/hour clean in a mere C3 with yourself and an alt...incursions...pfffffft
Its a more realistic comparison. If we go for top end income for both then we have 180-200 mil/hr from highsec incursions vs 90 mil/hr from anoms. You can almost get the same income from highsec level 3 missions as anoms...
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12817
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:37:14 -
[353] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: You need to put time and effort into it, its not like rolling up to a retreiver with a Venture, scan it for tank then warp the catalysts in, but then again it shouldn't be like that should it?
You're spinning, and it's obvious to everyone here.
List some. I don't care how much "time" or "effort" you claim it has, list some.
[edit: Oh, and it's really funny to see someone who defends dec dodging with his every breath talk about time or effort, by the way.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1113
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:41:34 -
[354] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:afkalt wrote:Wait, are we really comparing afktar income to a fleet operation of multiple billions of battleships?
Really?
Reaaaaaaaally?
Also, one can make 200m/hour clean in a mere C3 with yourself and an alt...incursions...pfffffft Its a more realistic comparison. If we go for top end income for both then we have 180-200 mil/hr from highsec incursions vs 90 mil/hr from anoms. You can almost get the same income from highsec level 3 missions as anoms...
Perhaps but there are significantly more variables in the equation than merely "isk/hour".
It is an interesting debate, I'm not sure what side I sit on tbh since I'd not fly what the incursion runners do in high sec. Ironically, I would in a WH... |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12817
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:44:12 -
[355] - Quote
Can anyone else picture Dracvlad behind his keyboard, scrambling through Battleclinic, trying to find something plausible to claim as a way to kill incursion players?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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2Sonas1Cup
96
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:44:24 -
[356] - Quote
Guys I'd like to remind those of you arguing about interfering with incursions fleet that incursions are 5 years old, there is nothing new to discover about them or "new ways to interfere with them if you think about it", like someone said in this thread, many have tried and failed, even goons, and yes goons are the best.
But that's NOT the point of why incursions are bad, they are bad because they provide all the isks you can possibly need in this game easily and in the safety of highsec, while there's many other highsec activities and they don't even come close to making the same amount of isks.
Also all other people in null and wormholes living the risk and logistics and a whole lot of crap and still highsec c incursions provide a MUCH better and consistent income ANYTIME you want. Only people in c5 and c6 can make more isks with capitals but it is NOT consistent . And hell in don't even wanna mention how much work and effort you need to do it compared to highsec incursions that even a stupid 100 mil isk megathron 6 jumps from on jita is accepted in some group fleets, and can make more than people in capitals.
Highsec Incursions ARE broken.
Reduce payout, make them them a temporary thing (4 weeks on, 12 off), or just end them completely.
My Payouts suggestion for highsec:
VGs: 8 mil per site Assaults: 15 mil per site Hqs: 25 mil per site
LPs stay the same.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15722
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:51:11 -
[357] - Quote
u3pog wrote:Station traders make billion of ISK with 0% risk
This is a myth. Station trading is a pvp activity and as has been shown many times people will take massive losses in this playing that game.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15722
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:55:17 -
[358] - Quote
Infrequent wrote:This entire thread is a joke, yes let's nerf something that's constantly generating ample content for a large part of the eve player base while actually requiring more organization and coordination than a decent amount of the other content avenues in Eve. Have you actually looked into the organization required to make incursions run smoothly?
Yes and it is far less than is required for a bog standard fleet like harpy fleet or domi fleet.
Infrequent wrote: Have you compared them to the early days when they first came around? Do you know of the risks, the requirements, the time investment required to get a good return? Do you know how easy it is to be alpha'd of the field in the sites that are actually worth the effort?
I did incursions the other week in a sheild fitted nano mega and our fleet had a bog standard zealot, the risk of being alpha'ed doesn't exist.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10817
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:55:25 -
[359] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Wait, are we really comparing afktar income to a fleet operation of multiple billions of battleships?
Really?
Reaaaaaaaally?
Also, one can make 200m/hour clean in a mere C3 with yourself and an alt...incursions...pfffffft
We're comparing the income of people using ships in unprotected (except by human effort) space to the higher income of people using ships in npc protected space (with the additional protection of a dedicated squad of tech2 logistics ships.
We're comparing the higher personal/individual income in NPC protected space that is 'free' for everyone to the lower or barley equal incomes in space you have to WORK for (null), space that is more dangerous (low) and space that is the MOST dangerous (WHs)
If you actually read the thread, you will see my own direct comparison.. Machariel Hull flown by me, 2 bil isk fit, flying with The Valhalla Project and making almost twice the isk per hour as the same ship in null sec with exclusive (no one else in system) access to the best anomalies (forsaken hubs, havens and sanctums). I'll let wormhole and low sec guys make their own comparisons.
The ONLY think more broken than high sec incursions are Faction Warfare Missions (which I also do, hell, the FW corp I'm in actually has the word FARMING in it's name lol) where being able to pilot a Stealth Bomber (purifier in my case, it's best against the amarr rats) means you can make more isk in an hour than you can in incursions and anomalies combined...
|
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 12:58:27 -
[360] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Can anyone else picture Dracvlad behind his keyboard, scrambling through Battleclinic, trying to find something plausible to claim as a way to kill incursion players?
At this moment I am looking at one of the fits for the Confessor which still works and I can get a T2 Expanded Probe launcher on it now with the same damage as I had before, yikes, but the 10mn Afterburner fit has been nuked which is a good thing...
Battleclinic, never use it...
Its very evident to me what you can do to attack Incursion runners, but it is not easy, it require effort and patience, its a major step up from ganking a retriever. A lot of the methods have been detailed in this thread, the main issue is that the target is limited in numbers and within tightly controlled groups, war dec's don't really work, unless your target has a brain fart, or the FC has one too, so its ganks, which need to be very well done or getting people into the incursion with logi and letting them die. Because the communities are tight knit it takes effort to infiltrate and its a busted flush after one use.
It is difficult but doable if you have the skill, will and the resources to do it, baltec1 talked about it and they found it too risky in terms of failure and that it was difficult to set up, so they decided to do other things.
And here is the issue, because it takes too much effort for you people you call for a nerf instead.
Ella's Snack bar
|
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12819
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:00:28 -
[361] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: Its very evident to me what you can do to attack Incursion runners
List it then, if it actually exists.
Quote: And here is the issue, because it takes too much effort for you people you call for a nerf instead.
If they're making too much money while being too safe, one of those things has to change. Duh.
So how about your cringing justification, then? Go ahead and list it out for us.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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2Sonas1Cup
98
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:01:36 -
[362] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:afkalt wrote:Wait, are we really comparing afktar income to a fleet operation of multiple billions of battleships?
Really?
Reaaaaaaaally?
Also, one can make 200m/hour clean in a mere C3 with yourself and an alt...incursions...pfffffft We're comparing the personal income potential of people using ships in unprotected (except by human effort) space to the higher income of people using ships in npc protected space (with the additional protection of a dedicated squad of tech2 logistics ships. We're comparing the higher personal/individual income in NPC protected space that is 'free' for everyone to the lower or barley equal incomes in space you have to WORK for (null), space that is more dangerous (low) and space that is the MOST dangerous (WHs) If you actually read the thread, you will see my own direct comparison.. Machariel Hull flown by me, 2 bil isk fit, flying with The Valhalla Project and making almost twice the isk per hour as the same ship in null sec with exclusive (no one else in system) access to the best anomalies (forsaken hubs, havens and sanctums). I'll let wormhole and low sec guys make their own comparisons. The ONLY think more broken than high sec incursions are Faction Warfare Missions (which I also do, hell, the FW corp I'm in actually has the word FARMING in it's name lol) where being able to pilot a Stealth Bomber (purifier in my case, it's best against the amarr rats) means you can make more isk in an hour than you can in incursions and anomalies combined... Quote:Also, one can make 200m/hour clean in a mere C3 with yourself and an alt...incursions...pfffffft Congrats on demonstrating that you can make a whopping 20 mil per hour more (in the deadliest space EVE has) than a shiny incursion fleet (180 mil per hour) can in the single most protected kind of space EVE has...which proves that the imbalances we speak of are real. Like i said, this discussion is like autopiloting, people prove my point without me even having to try lol.
Highsec incursions : ~250 mil per hour after LP
While drunk and watching a movie on the second monitor. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15725
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:02:38 -
[363] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Can anyone else picture Dracvlad behind his keyboard, scrambling through Battleclinic, trying to find something plausible to claim as a way to kill incursion players? At this moment I am looking at one of the fits for the Confessor which still works and I can get a T2 Expanded Probe launcher on it now with the same damage as I had before, yikes, but the 10mn Afterburner fit has been nuked which is a good thing... Battleclinic, never use it... Its very evident to me what you can do to attack Incursion runners, but it is not easy, it require effort and patience, its a major step up from ganking a retriever. A lot of the methods have been detailed in this thread, the main issue is that the target is limited in numbers and within tightly controlled groups, war dec's don't really work, unless your target has a brain fart, or the FC has one too, so its ganks, which need to be very well done or getting people into the incursion with logi and letting them die. Because the communities are tight knit it takes effort to infiltrate and its a busted flush after one use. It is difficult but doable if you have the skill, will and the resources to do it, baltec1 talked about it and they found it too risky in terms of failure and that it was difficult to set up, so they decided to do other things. And here is the issue, because it takes too much effort for you people you call for a nerf instead.
Game imbalances are not fixed by telling people to go gank them at a massive loss.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10819
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:03:07 -
[364] - Quote
Infrequent wrote:This entire thread is a joke, yes let's nerf something that's constantly generating ample content for a large part of the eve player base while actually requiring more organization and coordination than a decent amount of the other content avenues in Eve. Have you actually looked into the organization required to make incursions run smoothly? Have you compared them to the early days when they first came around? Do you know of the risks, the requirements, the time investment required to get a good return? Do you know how easy it is to be alpha'd of the field in the sites that are actually worth the effort?
No, you don't, so you spew out a thread like this and people start jumping on the bandwagon. I'm still laughing at Solecist complaining about not being able to smartbomb out an incursion fleet (Despite the fact that you CAN you just actually have to plan it out beforehand, there's this glorious thing where you can reinforce the node for the system before you do something like that, bet you didn't think about that, which is why the gank failed in the first place).
Do you know the amount of effort thousands of people make (enduring the boringest aspect of EVE, structure grinding) to have a situation where people can go to null, rat in upgraded system and make LESS than the guy who Xs up in some Incursion Community chat, anchors on the AAA and shoots whatever gets tagged?
Didn't think so
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1734
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:05:45 -
[365] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: You need to put time and effort into it, its not like rolling up to a retreiver with a Venture, scan it for tank then warp the catalysts in, but then again it shouldn't be like that should it?
You're spinning, and it's obvious to everyone here. List some. I don't care how much "time" or "effort" you claim it has, list some. [edit: Oh, and it's really funny to see someone who defends dec dodging with his every breath talk about time or effort, by the way.
You are hoping for something that won't happen. Some for of disruption have already been listed in this very thread tho. Ganks are possible but with a higher barrier of entry because your target are either small sig mobile logi cruisers or actually tanked BS. You have to plan for the worst case scenario every time as opposed to barge or freighter ganks where you can in the vast majority of case forgo any potential logi helping your target. Alpha is the name of the game but the setup is high.
Another one is infiltration. Getting inside most of the community is not all that hard. The issue is you burn yourself on the first bad move you do unless you have a really good excuse. Purple on purple shooting will usually get you blacklisted real fast because most FC will just ask you why you don't run PvE content with safety on green now. I've seen people CONCORD themself with safety reds and let me tell you it's absolutely funny how much heat they get for it. Best one was logi's drone on the FC.
Your best bet if you want to cause more disruption with infiltration would technically be logi work in a basilisk/guardian. HQ Otuni spawn are pretty much the only time people expect to risk losing their ship (low probability but if it happens, it's usually on those spawns). The key point is of course to "mess up" and not cap feed the target. IMPORTANT: The chance of this working as still EXTREMELY low because you should not be the only possible cap feed, the ship should still receive some raw reps even if his hardeners got shutdown, his pasive regen between neut cycles might let him cycle his invulns and the more bling your fleet is, the less time sanshas have to burn him down.
Results!!!
1- It works but require more effort than most people seem to be willing to put into it. Not sure why but it is what it is. 2- Yeah sure, let's ask people to chain train incursion running characters to get over the black listing. It's not stupid at all!!! /sarcasm 3- You might pull it off but that's like playing craps and hoping you will win that bet requiring all results to be rolled...
Analysis of results : Disturbing a fleet of logi supported BS is hard. News at 11. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10819
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:07:18 -
[366] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:afkalt wrote:Wait, are we really comparing afktar income to a fleet operation of multiple billions of battleships?
Really?
Reaaaaaaaally?
Also, one can make 200m/hour clean in a mere C3 with yourself and an alt...incursions...pfffffft We're comparing the personal income potential of people using ships in unprotected (except by human effort) space to the higher income of people using ships in npc protected space (with the additional protection of a dedicated squad of tech2 logistics ships. We're comparing the higher personal/individual income in NPC protected space that is 'free' for everyone to the lower or barley equal incomes in space you have to WORK for (null), space that is more dangerous (low) and space that is the MOST dangerous (WHs) If you actually read the thread, you will see my own direct comparison.. Machariel Hull flown by me, 2 bil isk fit, flying with The Valhalla Project and making almost twice the isk per hour as the same ship in null sec with exclusive (no one else in system) access to the best anomalies (forsaken hubs, havens and sanctums). I'll let wormhole and low sec guys make their own comparisons. The ONLY think more broken than high sec incursions are Faction Warfare Missions (which I also do, hell, the FW corp I'm in actually has the word FARMING in it's name lol) where being able to pilot a Stealth Bomber (purifier in my case, it's best against the amarr rats) means you can make more isk in an hour than you can in incursions and anomalies combined... Quote:Also, one can make 200m/hour clean in a mere C3 with yourself and an alt...incursions...pfffffft Congrats on demonstrating that you can make a whopping 20 mil per hour more (in the deadliest space EVE has) than a shiny incursion fleet (180 mil per hour) can in the single most protected kind of space EVE has...which proves that the imbalances we speak of are real. Like i said, this discussion is like autopiloting, people prove my point without me even having to try lol. Highsec incursions : ~250 mil per hour after LP While drunk and watching a movie on the second monitor.
lol, I was watching that sexy Game of Thrones Dragon Queen girl with the suggestive lips while running HQs. She's so damn fine I didn't hear my shield alarm go off for a couple seconds and broadcasted for shields and cap late (Death to Outunis). The FC actually chewed me out on comms, I bled a little armor and had to get the armor drones put on me lol.
Totally worth it though :) . |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15727
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:12:09 -
[367] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: You need to put time and effort into it, its not like rolling up to a retreiver with a Venture, scan it for tank then warp the catalysts in, but then again it shouldn't be like that should it?
You're spinning, and it's obvious to everyone here. List some. I don't care how much "time" or "effort" you claim it has, list some. [edit: Oh, and it's really funny to see someone who defends dec dodging with his every breath talk about time or effort, by the way. You are hoping for something that won't happen. Some for of disruption have already been listed in this very thread tho. Ganks are possible but with a higher barrier of entry because your target are either small sig mobile logi cruisers or actually tanked BS. You have to plan for the worst case scenario every time as opposed to barge or freighter ganks where you can in the vast majority of case forgo any potential logi helping your target. Alpha is the name of the game but the setup is high. Another one is infiltration. Getting inside most of the community is not all that hard. The issue is you burn yourself on the first bad move you do unless you have a really good excuse. Purple on purple shooting will usually get you blacklisted real fast because most FC will just ask you why you don't run PvE content with safety on green now. I've seen people CONCORD themself with safety reds and let me tell you it's absolutely funny how much heat they get for it. Best one was logi's drone on the FC. Your best bet if you want to cause more disruption with infiltration would technically be logi work in a basilisk/guardian. HQ Otuni spawn are pretty much the only time people expect to risk losing their ship (low probability but if it happens, it's usually on those spawns). The key point is of course to "mess up" and not cap feed the target. IMPORTANT: The chance of this working as still EXTREMELY low because you should not be the only possible cap feed, the ship should still receive some raw reps even if his hardeners got shutdown, his pasive regen between neut cycles might let him cycle his invulns and the more bling your fleet is, the less time sanshas have to burn him down. Results!!! 1- It works but require more effort than most people seem to be willing to put into it. Not sure why but it is what it is. 2- Yeah sure, let's ask people to chain train incursion running characters to get over the black listing. It's not stupid at all!!! /sarcasm 3- You might pull it off but that's like playing craps and hoping you will win that bet requiring all results to be rolled... Analysis of results : Disturbing a fleet of logi supported BS is hard. News at 11.
You cant gank a battleship fleet.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Melenos
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:12:13 -
[368] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:[quote=Jenn aSide][quote=afkalt]
Highsec incursions : ~250 mil per hour after LP
While drunk and watching a movie on the second monitor.
Do a 4 hour session as vindi pilot and/or drone bunny and you've earned it. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
929
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:12:16 -
[369] - Quote
u3pog wrote:Station traders make billion of ISK with 0% risk, unless they are sleepy and enter wrong digits. Should CCP stop their activities as well? Maybe add a random number generation when selling to make it more interesting. I am sure people can point out more activities that doesn't involve risk, or is that the real problem? Whoever wants more risk can go outside high sec. I dont see any of the current game mechanics ruining the game. Then you are not looking at the big picture.
First, as to trading there is never "0%" risk when you are playing the market. But even if that were true, it wouldn't matter as trading only moves assets between players - it does not put new resources or ISK into the economy. That is a concern on the macro-economic level, but really for this discussion it is unimportant. The problem is that the excessive amount of income incursion runners are earning are keeping players from ever leaving highsec, or worse, leaving their wormhole or nullsec homes to earn money back in highsec under the protection of CONCORD. This diminishes the chances for player conflict in these other spaces.
Can you point out another income-generating activity that has such low risk? Because I can't think of one that has a significant income associated with it as incursions. Trading or scamming might be the closest, but these are pure PvP activities. For PvE income sources, nothing comes close to the large reward to risk ratio as highsec incursions.
There is no reason for someone just looking for quick ISK to seek out risk outside of highsec when incursion income is so high and so safe. Many incursion runners would probably be perfectly happy doing PvE in a more risky environment and providing targets for other players, but they don't bother because they are just following the ISK and currently the best place to make that is in the safety of highsec.
This is not good for the long-term health of the game. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:12:37 -
[370] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Isn't it always nice how these people make your points for you. It's autopiloting forum style lol.
But yea, that's the whole damn point, this guy claims to make a certain amount of isk in NULL (no security) space not understanding that what he is saying PROVES the imbalance he and his ilk are arguing doesn't exist lol (which is priceless).
(can't remember if it was him or another guy, probably someone else, but that guy claimed he was making 110 mil per hour in null...using a Carrier to rat....like Dracvlad he didn't understand that he was making my point, because you need a CAPITAL ship iun NULL sec to make 10 mil per hour LESS than the high sec incursion runner who may even be in a 150 mil logi ship lol)
This game has a 'risk reward scheme'. Based on it, you should NOT be able to make "no security space" levels of income while being protected by "High security space" mechanics, period. I don't know what CCP can do at this point, but given the track record (almost 3 years to fix the high sec lvl 5 bug that they knew about immediately after one of their patches caused the bug in the 1st place), I don't anticipate it will be anything any time soon.
Some of us are doing the best thing that can be done: Incursioning our asses off in high sec. This not only fills our grubby little null sec coffers, it denies those spots to high sec incursion runners who want to make that easy isk. Ironic to again see high sec types defending a status quo that screws them lol.
Jenn makes me laugh, started going on about using a BS to do anoms in 0.0 in another thread that made me laugh a lot.
Lets get to the meat of this issue ratting carriers are cheaper then bling incursion boats designed to win competitions against other bling boats. It is a tool to do the job, and if you know how to operate a carrier you can do it fairly securely, I for one never used sentries when carrier ratting, I was always aligned to one of a number of safe POS's, my vulnerability was simply that point in time when I first warped into the anom, but that was easy to deal with in terms of having scouts next door to check for threats that could get on you before you could align. Just because some people are stupid and give easy kills does not mean everyone does.
Jenn also thinks that sitting around to get in a fleet is nothing, because Jenn is in the top group, she always maximises the ISK per hour on incursions and its just sad to see the continuing misinformation she puts out because the numbers are based on perfect numbers, no competitions and no waiting around to get a fleet or waiting for people to come back from being AFK.
Its just so boring to lie like this all the damn time.
Yes Jenn, carriers are capital ships, but they are not exactly expensive are they, and yes they take time to get into, yes so what...
Ella's Snack bar
|
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Danalee
Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective
1442
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:16:08 -
[371] - Quote
Incursions make much isk because they require much effort, (forming of a semi-large fleet and good-ish ships also dec dodging is possible some effort to convince yourself you are not a coward or something ). I therefor move to make the ganking of incursion runners equally profitable by means of NPC incursion combatants putting bounties on the incursion runners and paying out the people who gank them. It makes sense game-wise, lore-wise and sounds fun for all, right?
D.
Addendum: I didn't have the heart to reply to this thread with the initial knee-jerk, self serving, bloated bear responses. However, my faith in EVE players has been restored by some of the people who actually made an effort to argument for/against change en kept an open mind and - equally important- stayed civil.
Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority
Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21931
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:20:14 -
[372] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote:because Jenn is in the top group, she
Is not a she, Jenn is a big huge middle aged black man. While I'm all for consequences and thus addressing people with their char's sex ... ... why do you even know that?
Sheeeeeeesh ......... xD
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12819
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:20:59 -
[373] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: Why would you use a bling fitted carrier?
Why won't list those "number of ways" you were talking about to attack incursions fleets successfully?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12819
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:21:52 -
[374] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote:because Jenn is in the top group, she
Is not a she, Jenn is a big huge middle aged black man. While I'm all for consequences and thus addressing people with their char's sex ... ... why do you even know that? Sheeeeeeesh ......... xD
Because I pay attention? His post history doesn't exactly try to hide it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
437
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:21:52 -
[375] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lets get to the meat of this issue ratting carriers are cheaper then bling incursion boats designed to win competitions against other bling boats. are bling incursion boats cheaper than bling ratting carriers? that is the question Why would you use a bling fitted carrier?
to maximise your isk/hr, same as what they do in machs in highsec?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1734
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:23:23 -
[376] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
You cant gank a battleship fleet.
I never said you could gank the fleet. The recent smartbomb "event" demonstrated it. That still does nto mean you can't at least have an impact on it's members. You definitely won't stop them dead in the water but you can slow them down of cut their income. If they lose a few bling ship in a row, you can bet some people will start to get away from the most efficient fit for tankier ones because even if they are raking major dough, they still hate losing ships while doing it. Every mods they swap for more tank if an efficiency mod they lose for making that sweet 200+ mill isk/hours. Everybody want their vindi with 2 webs but the pilot might fly only one with an extenders if 4 ship has been killed recently with the gankers still in systems. If you do enough damage, you might even afk cloak them a bit.
I say again. You will not stop them. Not under the current rules of the game. If that is your goal, the required amount of effort is more than likely WAY too high to be worth it. Kaarous was asking for way to disrupt them, I provided just that and even said they were mostly not very effective because that's how things are. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:23:33 -
[377] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lets get to the meat of this issue ratting carriers are cheaper then bling incursion boats designed to win competitions against other bling boats. are bling incursion boats cheaper than bling ratting carriers? that is the question Why would you use a bling fitted carrier? to maximise your isk/hr, same as what they do in machs in highsec?
Well I use a T2 fitted BS to run level 4's for the same reason...
Ella's Snack bar
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10819
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:25:13 -
[378] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Isn't it always nice how these people make your points for you. It's autopiloting forum style lol.
But yea, that's the whole damn point, this guy claims to make a certain amount of isk in NULL (no security) space not understanding that what he is saying PROVES the imbalance he and his ilk are arguing doesn't exist lol (which is priceless).
(can't remember if it was him or another guy, probably someone else, but that guy claimed he was making 110 mil per hour in null...using a Carrier to rat....like Dracvlad he didn't understand that he was making my point, because you need a CAPITAL ship iun NULL sec to make 10 mil per hour LESS than the high sec incursion runner who may even be in a 150 mil logi ship lol)
This game has a 'risk reward scheme'. Based on it, you should NOT be able to make "no security space" levels of income while being protected by "High security space" mechanics, period. I don't know what CCP can do at this point, but given the track record (almost 3 years to fix the high sec lvl 5 bug that they knew about immediately after one of their patches caused the bug in the 1st place), I don't anticipate it will be anything any time soon.
Some of us are doing the best thing that can be done: Incursioning our asses off in high sec. This not only fills our grubby little null sec coffers, it denies those spots to high sec incursion runners who want to make that easy isk. Ironic to again see high sec types defending a status quo that screws them lol.
Jenn makes me laugh, started going on about using a BS to do anoms in 0.0 in another thread that made me laugh a lot. Lets get to the meat of this issue ratting carriers are cheaper then bling incursion boats designed to win competitions against other bling boats. It is a tool to do the job, and if you know how to operate a carrier you can do it fairly securely, I for one never used sentries when carrier ratting, I was always aligned to one of a number of safe POS's, my vulnerability was simply that point in time when I first warped into the anom, but that was easy to deal with in terms of having scouts next door to check for threats that could get on you before you could align. Just because some people are stupid and give easy kills does not mean everyone does. Jenn also thinks that sitting around to get in a fleet is nothing, because Jenn is in the top group, she always maximises the ISK per hour on incursions and its just sad to see the continuing misinformation she puts out because the numbers are based on perfect numbers, no competitions and no waiting around to get a fleet or waiting for people to come back from being AFK. Its just so boring to lie like this all the damn time. Yes Jenn, carriers are capital ships, but they are not exactly expensive are they, and yes they take time to get into, yes so what...
The lengths you go to deny the truth border on pathological lol.
Who is talking about cost? A Carrier takes way longer to train for, and the reward for that extra training time is less isk per hour than you make in a sub cap protected by concord (with the exception of lvl 5 blitzing, which makes way more than incursions).
Also, no one is talking about perfect numbers. Null/low/WH PVE gets disrupted more often than incursions do (you know this, you COMPLAINED about this with your failed Stain venture). Under average circumstances , you make more in high sec incursions than you should, and you know this too because you see people doing incursions (even people like me, who have access to sov null).
I get it, admitting you are wrong is hard, especially when the guy that's right is someone you dislike (if you ever end up being right about something, you can bet I'll grit the hell out of my teeth before being forced to admit that you are right....not that this is ever likely to happen lol, just sayin). But the imbalance exist, you prove it with your own post detailing how much isk per hour you made using a long train capital ship, and your denial of facts you help prove are simply unworthy of someone who is probably an adult.
Go day sir hashtag WillyWonka.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10821
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:26:42 -
[379] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote:because Jenn is in the top group, she
Is not a she, Jenn is a big huge middle aged black man. While I'm all for consequences and thus addressing people with their char's sex ... ... why do you even know that? Sheeeeeeesh ......... xD Because I pay attention? His post history doesn't exactly try to hide it.
I'm not just a member of Brothers with White Girl Avatars, I'm the President.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1114
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:27:36 -
[380] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Congrats on demonstrating that you can make a whopping 20 mil per hour more (in the deadliest space EVE has) than a shiny incursion fleet memebr (180 mil per hour) can in the single most protected kind of space EVE has...which proves that the imbalances we speak of are real.
Like i said, this discussion is like autopiloting, people prove my point without me even having to try lol.
To be wholly accurate, WH are only dangerous if you don't know what you're doing//are not paying attention. The only real risk is if your hole is seeded and frankly, that tends to be uncommon.
Anyway as I said, I'm on the fence about it, there are many variables in play - and quite honestly envy/denial is rife on each side of this argument, tends to create a nasty mix. |
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21933
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:28:51 -
[381] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:afkalt wrote:Wait, are we really comparing afktar income to a fleet operation of multiple billions of battleships?
Really?
Reaaaaaaaally?
Also, one can make 200m/hour clean in a mere C3 with yourself and an alt...incursions...pfffffft We're comparing the personal income potential of people using ships in unprotected (except by human effort) space to the higher income of people using ships in npc protected space (with the additional protection of a dedicated squad of tech2 logistics ships. We're comparing the higher personal/individual income in NPC protected space that is 'free' for everyone to the lower or barley equal incomes in space you have to WORK for (null), space that is more dangerous (low) and space that is the MOST dangerous (WHs) If you actually read the thread, you will see my own direct comparison.. Machariel Hull flown by me, 2 bil isk fit, flying with The Valhalla Project and making almost twice the isk per hour as the same ship in null sec with exclusive (no one else in system) access to the best anomalies (forsaken hubs, havens and sanctums). I'll let wormhole and low sec guys make their own comparisons. The ONLY think more broken than high sec incursions are Faction Warfare Missions (which I also do, hell, the FW corp I'm in actually has the word FARMING in it's name lol) where being able to pilot a Stealth Bomber (purifier in my case, it's best against the amarr rats) means you can make more isk in an hour than you can in incursions and anomalies combined... Quote:Also, one can make 200m/hour clean in a mere C3 with yourself and an alt...incursions...pfffffft Congrats on demonstrating that you can make a whopping 20 mil per hour more (in the deadliest space EVE has) than a shiny incursion fleet memebr (180 mil per hour) can in the single most protected kind of space EVE has...which proves that the imbalances we speak of are real. Like i said, this discussion is like autopiloting, people prove my point without me even having to try lol. Diana Kim told me she makes 800mill in three hours with incursions. And she has no reason to lie, she farms them only to buy ships.
Active caldari militia member, prominent roleplayer.
That was last year, I think late summer.
I am losing track of how much one cwn actually earn.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12819
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:29:06 -
[382] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous was asking for way to disrupt them
Actually, I was still just making fun of Dracvlad's repeated claims that there are "numerous ways" that "anyone can think of".
So I'd like to hear about those. But since they're imaginary and he was just blowing smoke to try and defend the golden goose of highsec, I know he won't deliver.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15728
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:29:24 -
[383] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:
You cant gank a battleship fleet.
I never said you could gank the fleet. The recent smartbomb "event" demonstrated it. That still does nto mean you can't at least have an impact on it's members. You definitely won't stop them dead in the water but you can slow them down of cut their income. If they lose a few bling ship in a row, you can bet some people will start to get away from the most efficient fit for tankier ones because even if they are raking major dough, they still hate losing ships while doing it. Every mods they swap for more tank if an efficiency mod they lose for making that sweet 200+ mill isk/hours. Everybody want their vindi with 2 webs but the pilot might fly only one with an extenders if 4 ship has been killed recently with the gankers still in systems. If you do enough damage, you might even afk cloak them a bit. I say again. You will not stop them. Not under the current rules of the game. If that is your goal, the required amount of effort is more than likely WAY too high to be worth it. Kaarous was asking for way to disrupt them, I provided just that and even said they were mostly not very effective because that's how things are.
You wont even scratch them while you lose tens of billions trying to kill them.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12819
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:30:45 -
[384] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: I'm not just a member of Brothers with White Girl Avatars, I'm the President.
BWGA? Need to think of a better acronym.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1734
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:31:20 -
[385] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Lets get to the meat of this issue ratting carriers are cheaper then bling incursion boats designed to win competitions against other bling boats. are bling incursion boats cheaper than bling ratting carriers? that is the question Why would you use a bling fitted carrier? to maximise your isk/hr, same as what they do in machs in highsec?
Someone doing a bad investment is not a reason for you too to make one... I was able to accept running bling when I ran incursion because you were able to get to a point where it gave an advantage especially if the whole fleet was not bling'd out. The second web on a vindi really nice to have when some of the short range dudes are in navy mega or similar boat but running dual webs kind of require you to bling out the invulns. High meta MWD is nice to reduce the requirement of cap feed if you somehow can't get your hands on enough Logi V pilots. You are also backed up by logi which reduce the risk of losing that bling. Your solo carrier basicly only count on himself so bling is less wise for the relatively low increase in monetary gain speed. |
Mashie Saldana
Gallente Rebels Inc. Villore Accords
1568
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:32:20 -
[386] - Quote
Well, it's true it got kinda out of hand, back when ISBOXER wasn't banned I was doing incursions with about 5 alts, I was earning about 750 mil/hour.
Made more than 100 billion isk in a few months.
Sniff.
How to win EVE
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15728
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:32:28 -
[387] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Good god man you are after one of the bling fitted BS...
Which not only sports a large tank but is supported by logistics and a fleet that will open fire back.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15728
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:34:01 -
[388] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:Well, it's true it got kinda out of hand, back when ISBOXER wasn't banned I was doing incursions with 5 alts, I was earning about 750 mil/hour.
Made more than 100 billion isk in a few months.
Sniff.
You can still do that.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12821
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:38:05 -
[389] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: A carrier training time is irrelevant, its a tool that you train into to maximise your return.
It's highly relevant, you just want to discard it because it goes against your narrative. He's not the liar here, you are, desperately spinning around trying to avoid the elephant in the room, that highsec incursions are absolutely broken.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Mashie Saldana
Gallente Rebels Inc. Villore Accords
1568
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:39:43 -
[390] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Well, it's true it got kinda out of hand, back when ISBOXER wasn't banned I was doing incursions with 5 alts, I was earning about 750 mil/hour.
Made more than 100 billion isk in a few months.
Sniff. You can still do that.
And I wasn't even the biggest playa in the community, I knew guys who were doing incursions with like 10 alts, I knew a guy who was farming vanguards with his own fleet.
Imagine that isk.
How to win EVE
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1734
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:40:16 -
[391] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Good god man you are after one of the bling fitted BS...
Which not only sports a large tank but is supported by logistics and a fleet that will open fire back.
Many won't open fire. The gank attempts I saw were always missed by lack of alpha or dps and CONCORD killed their ABC. Not the fleet killing them off.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10825
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:42:05 -
[392] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:Well, it's true it got kinda out of hand, back when ISBOXER wasn't banned I was doing incursions with 5 alts, I was earning about 750 mil/hour.
Made more than 100 billion isk in a few months.
Sniff.
Wow
Back before the various anom and titan nerfs, I buddy of mine used to blitz the hell out of forsaken hubs in null using an Avatar Titan and a Tracking Link Scimitar (with a Web to fling the Titan around). That tactiic in pve and pvp led to the Titan nerf where Titans can't receive those kinds of remote buffs anymore lol. He made about 500 mil per hour doing that.
And you beat him by a Quarter bil per hour... in high sec.
Dayum. RIP isboxer lol.
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Danalee
Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective
1445
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:44:39 -
[393] - Quote
I'll repeat this proposal a few times... I think it has merrit;
- Make it so the Sansha NPC's (are they called that?) put a sort of bounty on incursion runners to attract gankers and make it potentially profitable to execute a well organised gank on an incursion fleet. Sansha paying 'merc' capsuleers to kill their opposition makes sense, doesn't it?
- Slow down concord response times by a lot in incursion systems.
Profit.
D.
Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority
Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
849
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:47:31 -
[394] - Quote
Danalee wrote:I'll repeat this proposal a few times... I think it has merrit; - Make it so the Sansha NPC's (are they called that?) put a sort of bounty on incursion runners to attract gankers and make it potentially profitable to execute a well organised gank on an incursion fleet. Sansha paying 'merc' capsuleers to kill their opposition makes sense, doesn't it? - Slow down concord response times by a lot in incursion systems. Profit. D.
The second one in terms of Concord response time has merit in it, that would make sense in game terms.
Ella's Snack bar
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12823
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:48:16 -
[395] - Quote
Danalee wrote:I'll repeat this proposal a few times... I think it has merrit; - Make it so the Sansha NPC's (are they called that?) put a sort of bounty on incursion runners to attract gankers and make it potentially profitable to execute a well organised gank on an incursion fleet. Sansha paying 'merc' capsuleers to kill their opposition makes sense, doesn't it? - Slow down concord response times by a lot in incursion systems. Profit. D.
But, Danalee! That would mean that the carebears can't go right on with the extremely unbalanced status quo! That's not fair!
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1734
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:48:42 -
[396] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: A carrier training time is irrelevant, its a tool that you train into to maximise your return.
It's highly relevant, you just want to discard it because it goes against your narrative. He's not the liar here, you are, desperately spinning around trying to avoid the elephant in the room, that highsec incursions are absolutely broken.
Slash it by half and see what happen. I just don't want them to go away as the OP suggested.
Risk/reward is forever broken IMO because there is no number that can be put to make a real ratio out of it. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12823
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:51:17 -
[397] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: A carrier training time is irrelevant, its a tool that you train into to maximise your return.
It's highly relevant, you just want to discard it because it goes against your narrative. He's not the liar here, you are, desperately spinning around trying to avoid the elephant in the room, that highsec incursions are absolutely broken. Slash it by half and see what happen. I just don't want them to go away as the OP suggested. Risk/reward is forever broken IMO because there is no number that can be put to make a real ratio out of it.
I don't want them removed unless it's out of the question to just make incursions systems default to lowsec. In which case, yes, I want them gone.
But I'd much rather the former, it would be fun to see pockets of lowsec pop up in different places every day.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1734
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:53:01 -
[398] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Well, it's true it got kinda out of hand, back when ISBOXER wasn't banned I was doing incursions with 5 alts, I was earning about 750 mil/hour.
Made more than 100 billion isk in a few months.
Sniff. Wow Back before the various anom and titan nerfs, I buddy of mine used to blitz the hell out of forsaken hubs in null using an Avatar Titan and a Tracking Link Scimitar (with a Web to fling the Titan around). That tactiic in pve and pvp led to the Titan nerf where Titans can't receive those kinds of remote buffs anymore lol. He made about 500 mil per hour doing that. And you beat him by a Quarter bil per hour... in high sec. Dayum. RIP isboxer lol.
Isboxer always scaled pretty well as long as you were able to get the spots in the same role. I mean the groups already behave like a blob by anchoring and following a target order so you really can't get much trouble by having copies of yourself. You need to PLEX more account but you get over that cost rather fast if you are willing to put in the required time. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15730
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:55:52 -
[399] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Well, it's true it got kinda out of hand, back when ISBOXER wasn't banned I was doing incursions with 5 alts, I was earning about 750 mil/hour.
Made more than 100 billion isk in a few months.
Sniff. You can still do that. And I wasn't even the biggest playa in the community, I knew guys who were doing incursions with like 10 alts, I knew a guy who was farming vanguards with his own fleet. Imagine that isk.
There are still people running ISboxer 20 man incusion fleets.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Mashie Saldana
Gallente Rebels Inc. Villore Accords
1568
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:57:27 -
[400] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Well, it's true it got kinda out of hand, back when ISBOXER wasn't banned I was doing incursions with 5 alts, I was earning about 750 mil/hour.
Made more than 100 billion isk in a few months.
Sniff. You can still do that. And I wasn't even the biggest playa in the community, I knew guys who were doing incursions with like 10 alts, I knew a guy who was farming vanguards with his own fleet. Imagine that isk. There are still people running ISboxer 20 man incusion fleets.
Oh really? Well, good for them. I retired from incursions months ago. **** got old and I earned my share :)
How to win EVE
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1734
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 13:58:48 -
[401] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: A carrier training time is irrelevant, its a tool that you train into to maximise your return.
It's highly relevant, you just want to discard it because it goes against your narrative. He's not the liar here, you are, desperately spinning around trying to avoid the elephant in the room, that highsec incursions are absolutely broken. Slash it by half and see what happen. I just don't want them to go away as the OP suggested. Risk/reward is forever broken IMO because there is no number that can be put to make a real ratio out of it. I don't want them removed unless it's out of the question to just make incursions systems default to lowsec. In which case, yes, I want them gone. But I'd much rather the former, it would be fun to see pockets of lowsec pop up in different places every day.
Then I guess you would delete them as the usage would be extremely low...Why keep the code running at that point... |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12823
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 14:00:00 -
[402] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: Then I guess you would delete them as the usage would be extremely low...Why keep the code running at that point...
Honestly? I just want to see risk vs reward not be so obscenely unbalanced. Incursions are ridiculous right now, and they either need more risk or less isk. My preference would be for more risk.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1734
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 14:05:51 -
[403] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: Then I guess you would delete them as the usage would be extremely low...Why keep the code running at that point...
Honestly? I just want to see risk vs reward not be so obscenely unbalanced. Incursions are ridiculous right now, and they either need more risk or less isk. My preference would be for more risk.
I might be wrong but I don't forsee risk being added. At least not directly like spawning only in low sec. Corp/wardec changes maybe but don't hold your breath for that. |
Mashie Saldana
Gallente Rebels Inc. Villore Accords
1568
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 14:09:38 -
[404] - Quote
Also, incursion fleets rely on OGB. Without OGB support incursioners would earn much less.
How to win EVE
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Mario Putzo
1292
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 14:14:57 -
[405] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: Then I guess you would delete them as the usage would be extremely low...Why keep the code running at that point...
Honestly? I just want to see risk vs reward not be so obscenely unbalanced. Incursions are ridiculous right now, and they either need more risk or less isk. My preference would be for more risk.
Oh get off it. Risk/Reward is not a balancing point. You know it, I know it, everyone who plays this game knows it is a lemon. Its something whiners say to attempt to legitimize their complaint and gain support from other tryhards who pretend to believe risk/reward is actually relevant.
Case in point, LS is the most risky and dangerous space in the game...and also the poorest.
NS is where you go if you want to build sandcastles LS is where you go it you want to do a bit of everything, or nothing at all. WH space is where you go if you want to build slightly different sandcastles. HS is where you go if you want to enjoy the PVE aspect of EVE.
Fun thing about it, anyone can go anywhere, whenever they want.
EVE isn't fair, EVE isn't equal. Different places offer different things. NS puts down billions in infrastructure to get statistically the best production, they put down billions in POS to get the best moon minerals, they have access to the best loot drops, they have access to the best array of mining minerals (which got better today).
Lots and lots of stuff NS has that no one else gets in KSpace, and on the individual level, risk doesn't get any more volatile from the moment you spawn in your very first rookie ship.
Seems to me like I said before, lots of whine in here simply because HS offers something that NS doesn't, a liscence to print isk. Boo hoo. Ask CCP to make NS income better, because reducing HS income from one event isn't going to change the fact that HS is just a better place to live if you want to bang out pure isk/hr. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12825
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 14:20:01 -
[406] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Seems to me like I said before, lots of whine in here simply because HS offers something that NS doesn't, a liscence to print isk. Boo hoo. Ask CCP to make NS income better, because reducing HS income from one event isn't going to change the fact that HS is just a better place to live if you want to bang out pure isk/hr.
No. Inflation is a bad thing, and we need less of it, not vastly more.
The simple fact of the matter is that the safest space in the game should not as lucrative as incursions are. The end. Rant about the rest of it all you like, that is an absolute truth.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1115
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 14:24:02 -
[407] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I know from our years of posting together here that you're smarter than that, and all it takes is a tiny bit of thought and effort to see the truth. You aren't like these people, so don't post like them.
I'm on the fence because of a lack of information to form a fully legitimate opinion. One must take everything you read on these forums with a sceptical eye/pinch of salt.
I've not had time with incursions to work out where all the variables sit so I cannot make a fully informed judgement around them.
tl;dr: A lack of enough pertinent facts prevents me from making a substantive conclusion. |
Mario Putzo
1292
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 14:24:46 -
[408] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Seems to me like I said before, lots of whine in here simply because HS offers something that NS doesn't, a liscence to print isk. Boo hoo. Ask CCP to make NS income better, because reducing HS income from one event isn't going to change the fact that HS is just a better place to live if you want to bang out pure isk/hr.
No. Inflation is a bad thing, and we need less of it, not vastly more. The simple fact of the matter is that the safest space in the game should not as lucrative as incursions are. The end. Rant about the rest of it all you like, that is an absolute truth.
Why shouldn't it be? If CCP didn't like it, why buff them 6 months ago. Clearly CCP feels Incursions are fine as they are, the only folks who seem opposed to them are the same folks who show up in every "Whaaa HS Risk/Reward" whinathon.
Risk/Reward is not a balance mechanic, and it never has been. Its a placebo. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1115
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 14:27:34 -
[409] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: A carrier training time is irrelevant, its a tool that you train into to maximise your return.
It's highly relevant, you just want to discard it because it goes against your narrative. He's not the liar here, you are, desperately spinning around trying to avoid the elephant in the room, that highsec incursions are absolutely broken. Slash it by half and see what happen. I just don't want them to go away as the OP suggested. Risk/reward is forever broken IMO because there is no number that can be put to make a real ratio out of it. I don't want them removed unless it's out of the question to just make incursions systems default to lowsec. In which case, yes, I want them gone. But I'd much rather the former, it would be fun to see pockets of lowsec pop up in different places every day. Then I guess you would delete them as the usage would be extremely low...Why keep the code running at that point...
That would suck because no-one would run them and nothing snuffs out PvP like an incursion in the area. Not even concord is so effective.
Too many roams already have moments of "ah ****, guys. Incursion. /sigh. Burn to the end of it at best speed" |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21939
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 14:28:43 -
[410] - Quote
CSM Minutes, last year, page 125. Kaa already pointed it out. CCP believes as well that it's too much.
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1115
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 14:35:25 -
[411] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:CSM Minutes, last year, page 125. Kaa already pointed it out. CCP believes as well that it's too much.
To be fair they said "potentially". Then buffed them immediate after.
Mixed messages there! |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
21940
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 14:44:46 -
[412] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Solecist Project wrote:CSM Minutes, last year, page 125. Kaa already pointed it out. CCP believes as well that it's too much. To be fair they said "potentially". Then buffed them immediate after. Mixed messages there! Ah. Had no idea about the timing. Yeah that's kind of nonsensical.
As if one hand had no idea what the other does. That's totally unheard of from CCP! *snickers xD*
Bumping is fine, Ganking is fine.
The real issue are Carebears. Bad people wishing ill and death upon on all of us.
The obvious solution is to wipe them out and make sure they don't come back.
Let's kill them all for the good of EVEmanity.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15731
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 15:05:39 -
[413] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: No. Inflation is a bad thing, and we need less of it, not vastly more.
The simple fact of the matter is that the safest space in the game should not as lucrative as incursions are. The end. Rant about the rest of it all you like, that is an absolute truth.
Why shouldn't it be? If CCP didn't like it, why buff them 6 months ago. Clearly CCP feels Incursions are fine as they are, the only folks who seem opposed to them are the same folks who show up in every "Whaaa HS Risk/Reward" whinathon.
Risk/Reward is not a balance mechanic, and it never has been. Its a placebo.[/quote]
CCP were fine with the original FW mechanics. They were also fine with tech moons and the original payouts of incursions. Time after time CCP have been forced to make changes when we started to abuse them. The same people are telling everyone that high sec pve is too lucrative compared to the rest of EVE.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Mario Putzo
1292
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 15:19:41 -
[414] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: CCP were fine with the original FW mechanics. They were also fine with tech moons and the original payouts of incursions. Time after time CCP have been forced to make changes when we started to abuse them. The same people are telling everyone that high sec pve is too lucrative compared to the rest of EVE.
And so what if it is. HS is the core of new eden, and in order to keep it safe the Empires and those affiliated with them pay top dollar. NS is a lawless undeveloped territory, that the Empires have essentially left unclaimed because it sucks, and isn't worth the ISK to properly develop, much less secure. So they let capsuleers build their sand castles out there, and don't care what you do elsewise.
Different space is different. Suck it up buttercup.
Fact you can make more than enough money to live and thrive in NS. Fact you can make more than enough money to live and thrive in WH. Fact you can make more than enough money to live and thrive in LS. Fact you can make more than enough money to live and thrive in HS.
Different strokes, for different folks. Suck it up life ain't fair.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10825
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 15:27:28 -
[415] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Case in point, LS is the most risky and dangerous space in the game...and also the poorest.
This is of course untrue (there you go talking about things you know nothing about).
300 million isk per hour with cheap ships isn't poor. (have to know how to convert LP, but still, it's good isk for little investment).
Nor is this. (it's not 600 mil per hour anymore but 3-400 mil is nothing to sneeze at. My alt is in the minmatar militia
This neither., my actual bread and butter, a few hours on the weekend for a couple plex. Start up overhead is 6 bil though for 3 carriers (more if you need tp put up POSes), but it's worth it.
Low sec is a better place to make individual isk in than any place else. BUT with the exception of FW, risk balances out the reward.
Not so in high sec.
Quote: NS is where you go if you want to build sandcastles LS is where you go it you want to do a bit of everything, or nothing at all. WH space is where you go if you want to build slightly different sandcastles. HS is where you go if you want to enjoy the PVE aspect of EVE.
Fun thing about it, anyone can go anywhere, whenever they want.
I'v'e found your other problem (the 1st being ignorance of pve), it's an incorrect worldview. One in which you justify game world altering (and content stifling) imbalances by arbitrarily assigning functions to different parts of EVE space.[/quote]
EVE isn't fair, EVE isn't equal. Different places offer different things. NS puts down billions in infrastructure to get statistically the best production, they put down billions in POS to get the best moon minerals, they have access to the best loot drops, they have access to the best array of mining minerals (which got better today). [/quote]
And this is again wrong, the best loot drops come from low sec, with the rare exception farming low end anoms in the lowest true sec systems, you can't get things like pithum and gistum shield boosters and invuls in null. you can't get clone soldier or mordus stuff at all with some exceptions for the mordus stuff. But that's ok, low sec at least has risk.
Null sec loot drops tend to be crap. If you don't beleive so, go check the prices of pith xl shield boosters and compare their prices with faction xl shield boosters high sec mission runners sell from lp stores.
Quote: Lots and lots of stuff NS has that no one else gets in KSpace, and on the individual level, risk doesn't get any more volatile from the moment you spawn in your very first rookie ship.
Seems to me like I said before, lots of whine in here simply because HS offers something that NS doesn't, a liscence to print isk. Boo hoo. Ask CCP to make NS income better, because reducing HS income from one event isn't going to change the fact that HS is just a better place to live if you want to bang out pure isk/hr.
And there is the tell. "don't reduce my high sec income". It doesn't matter what game curving imbalances exist, just don't touch me stuff.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1734
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 15:32:47 -
[416] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:afkalt wrote:Solecist Project wrote:CSM Minutes, last year, page 125. Kaa already pointed it out. CCP believes as well that it's too much. To be fair they said "potentially". Then buffed them immediate after. Mixed messages there! Ah. Had no idea about the timing. Yeah that's kind of nonsensical. As if one hand had no idea what the other does. That's totally unheard of from CCP! *snickers xD*
The guy who made the statement as quoted in the minutes is no longer with CCP. Whatever he said in a meeting holds as much value as Frostys Virpio Inc on the Toronto stock market by now. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10825
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 15:36:07 -
[417] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Solecist Project wrote:CSM Minutes, last year, page 125. Kaa already pointed it out. CCP believes as well that it's too much. To be fair they said "potentially". Then buffed them immediate after. Mixed messages there!
Of course there are mixed messages, because historically CCP is horrible at PVE (making it, understanding it, and iterating on it). Hell, of all the devs they've culled from the community, I don't know of one that is a PVE-centric player.
Back when CCP modified 'normal' npc behavior to be more like sleepers, some of us pointed out to the devs that 'aggro switching' in DED complexes where the overseer shoots citidel torps would kill the content. Eventually CCP changed it to the current (overseers and turrets don't switch aggro) as a compromise, but one of the main DEVs working on the AI said on these forums that he was familiar with the most common high end DED complexes...
And i'll link it again: The above is why this didn't work, they didn't understand what people would do, it's not 'fight for better space' as they predicted, it's "move big alliance alts to better PVE space in high, low and wh space and rent out the remaining null space to renters too stupid to do the same".
TL:DR CCP could use some real PVE jocks on the team.
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
440
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 15:36:47 -
[418] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Fact you can make enough money to live and thrive in NS but you sacrafice security and many other things. Fact you can make enough money to live and thrive in WH but you sacrafice security and many other things. Fact you can make enough money to live and thrive in LS but you sacrafice security and many other things. Fact you make too much money in HS incursions with full protection from concord and all the necessities right at your door.
changed that a little for ya bud
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10825
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 15:46:26 -
[419] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Fact you can make enough money to live and thrive in NS but you sacrafice security and many other things. Fact you can make enough money to live and thrive in WH but you sacrafice security and many other things. Fact you can make enough money to live and thrive in LS but you sacrafice security and many other things. Fact you make too much money in HS incursions with full protection from concord and all the necessities right at your door.
changed that a little for ya bud
+1
FW missions are still broken, but i don't complain about the rest of low sec because there is risk. Wormhole space works right. Null sec is 'livable' even lucrative, but several aspects of high sec (missions blitzing, SOE and Thukker Agent Mission blitzing, Mission 'Farms" and Incursions) are various levels of Fubar'd and need reworking (not necessarily "reducing", for example switching some incursion pay out from isk to LP and decreasing the "CONCORD to other LP" conversion rate so CONCORD LP is worth more would go a long way to helping reduce the problem).
But some people are in so much denial that they prefer to pretend that the observable and testable imbalance doesn't even exist, so having a discussion about how to fix it can't ever get started.
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Mario Putzo
1293
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 15:51:49 -
[420] - Quote
You type a lot of words for no real effect. Tell me again, what is stopping anyone from coming to HS to get that dank isk/hr. Nothing. Thats right. If its so freaking awesome...go do it (i know you personally said you do, thats groovy).
Spend a few days running incursions, make some dank isk, then go back to playing the game in whatever fashion you chose to play.
or
Whine for the sake of whining.
Incursion isk/hr has 0 impact on the mechanics of NS, LS, WHs. It has 0 effect on peoples decisions to go there. If HS Incursions get nerfed they will just go to the next profitable source (probably L4 missions).
Contrary to the unpopular belief in this thread by a couple posters, folks don't go to NS because it is **** and doesn't align with their desired play style. Changing Incursions will not magically get people to move, just like changing production didn't get people to magically move...producers just rolled the extra cost to HS manufacturing back into the cost of an item...same isk/hr, and still living in HS. The mining changes won't magically move people to NS, they will just go on to something else, or eat the lower income.
People play in HS because they like HS, they don't go to NS because...wait for it...they have no desire to, and nothing CCP does, will change that. 75% of people live in HS for a reason...and I can assure you that its not all because of isk/hr. I know I don't live in HS because of isk/hr, I live in HS because it is centrally located and I have equal opportunity access to everything in any direction. Why would I want to live in Tenal or PB or any of the other "ass end" of the universe regions, it makes absolutely no sense for me to do so, when I can literally go anywhere in EVE from a central location, in pretty well equal time to every single corner.
People don't play for isk/hr, and if that is your thing, then stop complaining and go do more incursions and win at EVE in your own way.
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Danalee
Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective
1452
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 16:06:36 -
[421] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:INFLATION DOESN'T EXIST, IT'S A HOAX BY THE GOVERNMENT TO KEEP US DOWN..
Calm down sir, somebody will be here to pick you up shortly.
D.
Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority
Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
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Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
76
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 16:12:17 -
[422] - Quote
Petition to change the title of this thread
to "I'm jealous and I want things to
go my way without effort." |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10825
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 16:13:38 -
[423] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:You type a lot of words for no real effect. Tell me again, what is stopping anyone from coming to HS to get that dank isk/hr. Nothing. Thats right. If its so freaking awesome...go do it (i know you personally said you do, thats groovy).
Spend a few days running incursions, make some dank isk, then go back to playing the game in whatever fashion you chose to play.
or
Whine for the sake of whining.
Option C: advocate CCP figure out it's PVE aspect so as to make the game better for everyone, including the High Sec pve crowd that is too short sighted to see how the imblance screws them (by attracting people like me who would rather LIVE in sov null but who can't resist making twice as much isk in safety, thus taking up finite incursion fleet slots high sec PVErs could be enjoying).
Quote: Changing Incursions will not magically get people to move, just like changing production didn't get people to magically move...producers just rolled the extra cost to HS manufacturing back into the cost of an item...same isk/hr, and still living in HS. The mining changes won't magically move people to NS, they will just go on to something else, or eat the lower income.
No one wants unwilling people to move. We want to be able to live in the space we fight for (or scan donw in the case of wormholes, or simply inhabit in the case of low sec). Having alts chained to high sec for easy isk making is not good game design.
You high sec types (and you talk like one) should want us gone. That you don't speaks to the short sightedness I mentioned earlier.
Quote: People play in HS because they like HS, they don't go to NS because...wait for it...they have no desire to, and nothing CCP does, will change that. 75% of people live in HS for a reason...and I can assure you that its not all because of isk/hr. I know I don't live in HS because of isk/hr, I live in HS because it is centrally located and I have equal opportunity access to everything in any direction. Why would I want to live in Tenal or PB or any of the other "ass end" of the universe regions, it makes absolutely no sense for me to do so, when I can literally go anywhere in EVE from a central location, in pretty well equal time to every single corner.
You've pinned your worldview on the idea that someone cares where you play. Nothing could be further than the truth. And not everyone plays in HS because they want to, they do so because in the quest for enough isk to both plex and pay for fun ships, High Sec is the 2nd best option going (FW missions being the 1st). Solving the imbalance (that you could observe for yourself but choose to remain ignorant of) makes the situation better for everyone, as everyone gets to 'play they way they want to'.
Quote: Not all people play for isk/hr, and if that is your thing, then stop complaining and go do more incursions and win at EVE in your own way.
Isk is a tool, how you acquire it is important to the overall game. As it is now, the system (the core risk reward system CCP bases damn near everything on) is broken almost everywhere (like for example,using anomalies as the core of the systems upgrade scheme was a bad move).
Sorry if people who actually understand the issue liking to talk about it offends you. You'll just have to get over it i guess.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6616
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 16:14:09 -
[424] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
This is a classic rant, the thing was that some of us wanted to run challenging missions as a team, level 4's are actually a laugh when you do it with a small fleet but only a very few missions are a challenge and to do that one has to shoot all the triggers, but level 5's in hisec were for a brief period a lot of fun for us, and then the risk reward player killers did their whining and they got them removed from hisec . Thanks for your work in making PvE boring for us...
whats broing? the fact you cant make nullsec income with concord protection? if your bored then move to somewhere more fun, its not really hard is it Concord does not exist in null sec are you some sort of wombat? There was some nice missions that required team effort and some people whined and got them moved to lowsec, for a brief period some people had a lot of fun doing them as a group, but people whined and the fun was removed from us all because people could not find anything to kill in lowsec because they killed off anyone who went in there.. And people now do level 4's as a group every so often and have fun blowing up the damsel, or setting all the triggers off for something challenging in PVE in hisec... EDIT: The correct thing to have done was give some extra reward for the ones in lowsec, but CCP are not clever at times...
Yep. The move of lvl 5s to lowsec came on at a time when the "fruition" of killing everything that moved in lowsec for no reason came, and suddenly all the bored lowseccers, instead on congratulating each other on their victory over an entire region of the game, cried out together to make CCP move lvl 5s in hope that bling boats would gloriously wander into the lowsec gate camps.
And that never happened. And there was much wailing and gnashing of the teeth.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Mario Putzo
1294
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 16:16:08 -
[425] - Quote
Danalee wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:INFLATION DOESN'T EXIST, IT'S A HOAX BY THE GOVERNMENT TO KEEP US DOWN.. Calm down sir, somebody will be here to pick you up shortly. D.
Well i never said that. But inflation in a closed economy is highly irrelevant. In the real world high inflation is bad because it lowers the value of a nations currency vs competitor nations. Resulting in more expensive imports, and less lucrative exports. Since EVE has no competitive currency market, ISK can be worth absolutely nothing in valuation. So ya it kind of is a hoax in the game since it has absolutely no positive or negative impact on the health of the economy as whole.
About the only thing impacted would be PLEX conversion, but fun fact, PLEX is mandatory to experience EVE, it is a secondary option for a variety of Cash transactions. If you can't afford a PLEX...get a job and pay the sub. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1734
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 16:21:16 -
[426] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Danalee wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:INFLATION DOESN'T EXIST, IT'S A HOAX BY THE GOVERNMENT TO KEEP US DOWN.. Calm down sir, somebody will be here to pick you up shortly. D. Well i never said that. But inflation in a closed economy is highly irrelevant. In the real world high inflation is bad because it lowers the value of a nations currency vs competitor nations. Resulting in more expensive imports, and less lucrative exports. Since EVE has no competitive currency market, ISK can be worth absolutely nothing in valuation. So ya it kind of is a hoax in the game since it has absolutely no positive or negative impact on the health of the economy as whole. About the only thing impacted would be PLEX conversion, but fun fact, PLEX isn't mandatory to experience EVE, it is a secondary option for a variety of Cash transactions. If you can't afford a PLEX...get a job and pay the sub.
Well technically some people would be more impacted by inflation than others. Mostly whoever makes his ISK outside of the market. Bounties and mission rewards (ISK not LP) don't scale with inflation while anything that goes through the market does. The population being hit the hardest by inflation? Ratters who don't loot/salvage. |
Mario Putzo
1296
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 16:34:57 -
[427] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Option C: advocate CCP figure out it's PVE aspect so as to make the game better for everyone, including the High Sec pve crowd that is too short sighted to see how the imblance screws them (by attracting people like me who would rather LIVE in sov null but who can't resist making twice as much isk in safety, thus taking up finite incursion fleet slots high sec PVErs could be enjoying).
This is a pretty bottom of the barrel argument. If you want to come do incursions cool, its a first come first served system, if other people don't like that you are taking up a spot, they can make their own fleet, or X up before you do. Hardly indicative of an imbalance.
Quote:No one wants unwilling people to move. We want to be able to live in the space we fight for (or scan donw in the case of wormholes, or simply inhabit in the case of low sec). Having alts chained to high sec for easy isk making is not good game design. You high sec types (and you talk like one) should want us gone. That you don't speaks to the short sightedness I mentioned earlier.
That is a personal choice, there is no mechanic in the game forcing you to come to HS to do incursions. You can in fact make enough isk/hr to PLEX your accounts or w/e you want living in NS. You choose to come to HS, CCP in no way makes you. In regards to wanting you gone.. Why should I want that, it literally has no impact on the game whatsoever if you live in NS and play in HS, so I really could care less, and most HS folks feel the same, your presence in HS is of 0 concern to anyone. Period.
Quote:You've pinned your worldview on the idea that someone cares where you play. Nothing could be further than the truth. And not everyone plays in HS because they want to, they do so because in the quest for enough isk to both plex and pay for fun ships, High Sec is the 2nd best option going (FW missions being the 1st). Solving the imbalance (that you could observe for yourself but choose to remain ignorant of) makes the situation better for everyone, as everyone gets to 'play they way they want to'.
Yes CCP cares where I play, they have in fact stated numerous times over the past year they are going to be making some sweeping changes to encourage people to move to NS, Industry revamp, mining revamp, upcoming sov revamp all for the sake of making NS more attractive. Now I don't care about players opinions on where I live, but CCP is currently in the process of revamping NS pretty much from the ground up just for this very reason. What CCP doesn't get is that most folks in HS just have no desire to live in NS at all, CCP can make it as lucrative as they want and many many people will still not move. Some might, most won't.
Quote:Isk is a tool, how you acquire it is important to the overall game. As it is now, the system (the core risk reward system CCP bases damn near everything on) is broken almost everywhere (like for example,using anomalies as the core of the systems upgrade scheme was a bad move).
The system is far from broken, you can make more than enough ISK to live and thrive in every region in this game as of today. There is no one forcing you to play in any region of space, you choose that of your own free will. You chose to live in NS, and you choose to PVE in HS...that is cool and nothing wrong with that, and again is not indicative of any imbalance. There is no law that states NS must have the highest isk/hr, there is no law that states NS must at all times be the most dangerous space. The only thing that needs be balanced is the ability for players to earn a living that is either at or above the cost of living in the region they so choose to reside in. If you want to commute for more ISK/hr then by all means continue to do so, that choice however does not mean NS is some wasteland where it is impossible to earn an income, every area in this game is entirely self sufficient in terms of pure isk generation...balance.
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Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution The Initiative.
430
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 16:50:45 -
[428] - Quote
All those thousands of Supercaps, the proliferation of which ruined nullsec.
I'll wager that a larger proportion of those were funded by running incursions.
Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
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Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
79
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 16:54:10 -
[429] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Yes CCP cares where I play, they have in fact stated numerous times over the past year they are going to be making some sweeping changes to encourage people to move to NS, Industry revamp, mining revamp, upcoming sov revamp all for the sake of making NS more attractive.
Lots of good, god-fearin folk have no interest in movin to null because of the sheer numbers of unpleasant anti-social guntrolls and creepmiesters. The coming doom of CVA is a case in point.
This aint sumthin CCP can or if they lost their minds would want to change. |
Mario Putzo
1296
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 16:57:17 -
[430] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:All those thousands of Supercaps, the proliferation of which ruined nullsec.
I'll wager that a larger proportion of those were funded by running incursions.
Which is irrelevant, the issues with Supers/Titans is CCP attempted and failed, at balancing through cost. They were severely short sighted in the fact they did not for see groups of people making Coalitions to massively ramp up production of and protection of these Iwin button ships. What ruined NS was Coalitions....something that was arguably inevitable because Dominion Sov pretty much demanded you have as many bodies available for defensive operations as possible.
How Supers were funded is literally at the bottom of the ladder in terms of the issues NS faced. They system was ultimately designed in such a way that it was inevitable to have 2 huge power blocs casting a death stare at each other. The same outcome would have occurred even if Supers and Titans didn't even exist in the game at all. |
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
881
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:07:03 -
[431] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:All those thousands of Supercaps, the proliferation of which ruined nullsec.
I'll wager that a larger proportion of those were funded by running incursions.
Sorry I think you are wrong, I would wager that the majority of Supers and Titans are owned by people who are in the alliances that directly controlled the Tech during the critical period of its imbalance, and while a significant number of supers may have been funded by Incursions its is totally dwarfed by those funded by moon goo enriched alliances...
Its the Technicium imbalance that screwed up Eve, Incursions are the equivalent of peeing in a rain storm...
Ella's Snack bar
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Danalee
Somalian Coast Guard Authority The Marmite Collective
1453
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:17:47 -
[432] - Quote
Thread is about HISEC incursions.
Please stop strolling/derailing or I'll be forced to report you.
D.
Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority
Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
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Mario Putzo
1298
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:31:37 -
[433] - Quote
Danalee wrote:Thread is about HISEC incursions. Please stop trolling/derailing or I'll be forced to report you. D.
Thread is over, HS incursions are fine as they are, nothing forces you to do them, nothing prevents you from doing them. We can move on to the next nullbear tearjerker anytime now I think |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15734
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:33:29 -
[434] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:All those thousands of Supercaps, the proliferation of which ruined nullsec.
I'll wager that a larger proportion of those were funded by running incursions. Sorry I think you are wrong, I would wager that the majority of Supers and Titans are owned by people who are in the alliances that directly controlled the Tech during the critical period of its imbalance, and while a significant number of supers may have been funded by Incursions its is totally dwarfed by those funded by moon goo enriched alliances... Its the Technicium imbalance that screwed up Eve, Incursions are the equivalent of peeing in a rain storm...
Most of our corps caps were bought after tech was nerfed and by the pilots not by the corp. My own 7 bil dread and 2.3 bil megathron were entirely funded from highsec level 4 missions. No bat cap was funded via tech money, that is not what it was used for.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10825
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:36:44 -
[435] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Danalee wrote:Thread is about HISEC incursions. Please stop trolling/derailing or I'll be forced to report you. D. Thread is over, HS incursions are fine as they are, nothing forces you to do them, nothing prevents you from doing them. We can move on to the next nullbear tearjerker anytime now I think
It's only over for people who don't understand why the issue is important, and why people who reportedly don't even participate in the activities under discussion want to come to conclusions without even trying out the content is baffling to me.
Get some credibility, the tell us when it's over.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15734
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:37:18 -
[436] - Quote
Danalee wrote:Thread is about HISEC incursions. Please stop trolling/derailing or I'll be forced to report you. D.
There is no derailing here. Highsec incursions have an impact outside of highsec.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
443
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:37:46 -
[437] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Danalee wrote:Thread is about HISEC incursions. Please stop trolling/derailing or I'll be forced to report you. D. Thread is over, HS incursions are fine as they are, nothing forces you to do them, nothing prevents you from doing them. We can move on to the next nullbear tearjerker anytime now I think
its only over because you want it to be, and that does not solve the issue
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
881
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:42:10 -
[438] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:All those thousands of Supercaps, the proliferation of which ruined nullsec.
I'll wager that a larger proportion of those were funded by running incursions. Sorry I think you are wrong, I would wager that the majority of Supers and Titans are owned by people who are in the alliances that directly controlled the Tech during the critical period of its imbalance, and while a significant number of supers may have been funded by Incursions its is totally dwarfed by those funded by moon goo enriched alliances... Its the Technicium imbalance that screwed up Eve, Incursions are the equivalent of peeing in a rain storm... Most of our corps caps were bought after tech was nerfed and by the pilots not by the corp. My own 7 bil dread and 2.3 bil megathron were entirely funded from highsec level 4 missions. No bat cap was funded via tech money, that is not what it was used for.
And I knew you would say something like that, the imbalance created such an advantage in terms of cash reserves that it created the capital assets that you have now by its affect, you sure don't have much of a strategic overview of such matters do you baltec1, you talk like a grunt.
Incursion runners did of course fund major purchases with these funds, that is for certain, especially with ISboxer, but it pales into insignificance compared to the imbalance that has really screwed up the game.
Danalee even the pet ISD would not see that as out of context, but be a child if you must...
Ella's Snack bar
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Mario Putzo
1299
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:45:49 -
[439] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Danalee wrote:Thread is about HISEC incursions. Please stop trolling/derailing or I'll be forced to report you. D. Thread is over, HS incursions are fine as they are, nothing forces you to do them, nothing prevents you from doing them. We can move on to the next nullbear tearjerker anytime now I think its only over because you want it to be, and that does not solve the issue
What issue might that be? I am curious as to this phantom issue everyone keeps talking about. Nothing forces you to do incursions, nothing stops you. They are balanced by the limited number of people able to fleet up for them.
The only thing folks keep leaning on is risk/reward, which is about as relevant as **** on a bull. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15736
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:50:10 -
[440] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
And I knew you would say something like that, the imbalance created such an advantage in terms of cash reserves that it created the capital assets that you have now by its affect, you sure don't have much of a strategic overview of such matters do you baltec1, you talk like a grunt.
Incursion runners did of course fund major purchases with these funds, that is for certain, especially with ISboxer, but it pales into insignificance compared to the imbalance that has really screwed up the game.
Danalee even the pet ISD would not see that as out of context, but be a child if you must...
Back when we had the tech monopoly we did not have the largest super fleet. So, how exactly did the tech monopoly fund their even bigger super fleet?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15736
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:51:56 -
[441] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
What issue might that be? I am curious as to this phantom issue everyone keeps talking about. Nothing forces you to do incursions, nothing stops you.
Thats the problem. Why would we spend more isk, time, effort and risk so much more in null when we can earn twice as much in highsec and enjoy the protection of concord?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10825
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:53:51 -
[442] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:All those thousands of Supercaps, the proliferation of which ruined nullsec.
I'll wager that a larger proportion of those were funded by running incursions. Sorry I think you are wrong, I would wager that the majority of Supers and Titans are owned by people who are in the alliances that directly controlled the Tech during the critical period of its imbalance, and while a significant number of supers may have been funded by Incursions its is totally dwarfed by those funded by moon goo enriched alliances... Its the Technicium imbalance that screwed up Eve, Incursions are the equivalent of peeing in a rain storm... \
It's not just Tech, it's never just "one thing" in a complex system.
A big part of the problem was that CCP (a company that has never been good at delivering PVE content) decided to add more pve content (along with new space) starting around 2008. They piled this new content (wormholes and incursions) on top of an already not working system (lvl 4 missions, which were the 1st version of the incursion mess in that they are usually only done in high sec despite the fact that they exist in low and npc null) and repeated the mistake.
Before this and even with the lvl 5 bug, things made more sense. Getting ejected from null sec in those days HURT because the best pve content in the game was there by far, lvl 4s were slow is in the days before things like Marauders. After the incusion of the post 2008 pve content, being ejected from null has a moderate affect on top level alliance people (loss of moon good and super caps being aborted), but doesn't cause a single ripple for grunts because you can just go do incursions or wormhole stuff or now faction warfare (FW wasn't crazy unbalanced in the beginning PVE wise).
This is BAD, because it reduces the bottom up reason to fight for space. It results in more renting (which stabilizes a place that should be UNstable), which in turn results in a more constant flow of 'rare' null sec goods that ends up fubaring the null market (freaking Pith X XLSBs are like 70 mil now), which in turn fubar's the HIGH SEC LP markets (other than cpu , why buy a Caldari navy XLSB when a Pith X is cheaper?). screwing over mission runners whose LP is devalued. Everything is connected.
The round about result is everyone suffers even if some people aren't smart enough to know they are suffering because "they personally make enough isk for plex". CCP should have taken more time post 2008 to think about how new pve content would affect things, because the structural problems with the game could have been foreseen and prevented.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1735
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Posted - 2015.04.28 17:57:25 -
[443] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
What issue might that be? I am curious as to this phantom issue everyone keeps talking about. Nothing forces you to do incursions, nothing stops you.
Thats the problem. Why would we spend more isk, time, effort and risk so much more in null when we can earn twice as much in highsec and enjoy the protection of concord?
Well "soon" you would because you want your index to be high to help defend your magic wand assets from fast capping. I'm not saying it's a good reason but it will technically be one "soon"... |
Mario Putzo
1302
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:57:55 -
[444] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
What issue might that be? I am curious as to this phantom issue everyone keeps talking about. Nothing forces you to do incursions, nothing stops you.
Thats the problem. Why would we spend more isk, time, effort and risk so much more in null when we can earn twice as much in highsec and enjoy the protection of concord?
Then go do incursions, in HS there is literally nothing stopping you. Its a choice you are free to make, there is no mechanic preventing you from joining in, other than the limited number of pilots incursion groups use. Also last I checked CONCORD won't engage Sanshas, so if you start to go sideways on your run, you have 0 protection.
I mean less than 1% of the player base is capable of milking these things at any one time. WOE IS US THE IMBALANCE GUYS THE IMBALANCE, if anything they should be opened up to even more people not just an average of 23.3 pilots per site.
Whine more son. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15741
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 17:59:25 -
[445] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
What issue might that be? I am curious as to this phantom issue everyone keeps talking about. Nothing forces you to do incursions, nothing stops you.
Thats the problem. Why would we spend more isk, time, effort and risk so much more in null when we can earn twice as much in highsec and enjoy the protection of concord? Well "soon" you would because you want your index to be high to help defend your magic wand assets from fast capping. I'm not saying it's a good reason but it will technically be one "soon"...
Hence the need to make it worth line members time to be out in null doing these activities.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15741
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 18:00:26 -
[446] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
What issue might that be? I am curious as to this phantom issue everyone keeps talking about. Nothing forces you to do incursions, nothing stops you.
Thats the problem. Why would we spend more isk, time, effort and risk so much more in null when we can earn twice as much in highsec and enjoy the protection of concord? Then go do incursions, in HS there is literally nothing stopping you. Its a choice you are free to make, there is no mechanic preventing you from joining in, other than the limited number of pilots incursion groups use. I mean less than 1% of the player base is capable of milking these things at any one time. WOE IS US THE IMBALANCE GUYS THE IMBALANCE, if anything they should be opened up to even more people not just an average of 23.3 pilots per site. Whine more son.
We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null.
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
247
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Posted - 2015.04.28 18:00:30 -
[447] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:The system is far from broken, you can make more than enough ISK to live and thrive in every region in this game as of today.
Please come to Syndicate with a PvP habit, and tell me how you can 'thrive'. Nearly every entity that makes a home there depends on outside income, because it is better/safer/more available everywhere else. Depending on outside income robs the region of content. Much to the same extent, this can be applied to the whole of Sov-Null vs High Sec; if only people actually had to source income where they lived, or if it even made sense to, there would be more conflict and interesting happenings.
So long as Hi Sec has the monopoly on accessible income, we are playing a theme park and not a sandbox. High is the safe farming zone to get ships to go pew with elsewhere. Low/null are the battlegrounds where you go to elite pvp.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10826
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Posted - 2015.04.28 18:02:10 -
[448] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
What issue might that be? I am curious as to this phantom issue everyone keeps talking about. Nothing forces you to do incursions, nothing stops you.
Thats the problem. Why would we spend more isk, time, effort and risk so much more in null when we can earn twice as much in highsec and enjoy the protection of concord?
Exactly, and people who want to be in null actually being in null provides content for others while stimulating different markets across new eden in a way that isk gathering in the safety of high sec can't. Ratting ship blow up way more than incursion boats, making economic activities for loads of people creating more need for people to pve outside of high sec which creates even more market opportunities and so forth.
It's similar to the Ishtar imbalance. The Ishtar imbalance doesn't just make for stale game play in null and low sec. It creates ripples across the game" it benefits ishtar makers and drone makers, it screws everyone else because it means there is less need for other ships and weapons to be built or acquired.
Incursions as they are benefit a few (the few hundred incursion runners, many of whom are null alts who should be risking ships to make their isk), but screw over the rest of the game. The "high sec partisans" should be the most incensed, because incursions allow NULL GROUPS a way to make isk in near total, close to uninterruptible safety.
Isk that gets funneled to groups like CODE because Catalysts aren't free |
Mario Putzo
1302
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 18:02:11 -
[449] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:[ We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null.
You will have. Sov Index baby. CCP is giving you your reason in a couple months. Be patient. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15742
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 18:04:16 -
[450] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:[ We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null. You will have. Sov Index baby. CCP is giving you your reason in a couple months. Be patient.
We have no info so right now we will continue to hammer home the message that fozziesov will fail if the rewards are not there.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10826
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 18:10:05 -
[451] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:[ We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null. You will have. Sov Index baby. CCP is giving you your reason in a couple months. Be patient.
And it will fail, because it doesn't address the same issue that doomed the anom nerf I linked: It makes more sense for an individual to make isk in safety. YOU actually suggest this, don't change now lol.
A big part of why some don't understand what's going on is misguided anti-null prejudice. It's actually funny, because they people denying the imbalance are the ones getting shafted, null types have adapted to the imbalance by learning how to afk in null on alts while making the good isk elsewhere (including incursions), all while various high sec markets get depressed save for the select few incursion runners ...
Which leads to the most supreme Irony. If CCP fixes the imbalances, everyone one wins. If they maintain the status quo, NULL SEC wins (via null alts in incursions, FW and doing low sec lvl 5s with pre-posistioned carriers, while still being able to rent out null space to nub renters who will, come June, buff our defensive indexes for us....for FREE).
It's sad that some of y'all can't see it, if you did you'd be on the right side. |
Mario Putzo
1302
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 18:15:01 -
[452] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:[ We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null. You will have. Sov Index baby. CCP is giving you your reason in a couple months. Be patient. We have no info so right now we will continue to hammer home the message that fozziesov will fail if the rewards are not there.
"We don't know anything concrete, so instead of offering suggestion in F+I to improve the new NS, Im going to whine in a thread opposed to HS Incursions"
If you want better for NS, go post in any number of the threads CCP put up asking for players opinions on how stuff should change going forward, if you think NS needs more PVE related income, go suggest that.
They have already improved production, they have already improved mining, it stands to reason they will be open to discussion on improving PVE aspects as well. Im sure you will have a much easier time convincing them of NS shortfalls than 1% of the EVE population making bank in HS at any given time, being unfair. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15742
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 18:18:43 -
[453] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
"We don't know anything concrete, so instead of offering suggestion in F+I to improve the new NS, Im going to whine in a thread opposed to HS Incursions"
Spoke to the devs directly and have been posting what we would need for years now in all areas of relevance.
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
443
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Posted - 2015.04.28 18:21:34 -
[454] - Quote
i dont know why you would oppose this, you said its not about the isk so removing nullbears from incursions would suit you you more, wait times would decrease significantly and you can run incursions till your little hearts content
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
881
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Posted - 2015.04.28 18:26:30 -
[455] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:[ We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null. You will have. Sov Index baby. CCP is giving you your reason in a couple months. Be patient. We have no info so right now we will continue to hammer home the message that fozziesov will fail if the rewards are not there.
So to prove that point they will go destroy all the IHUB's in Provi, the one area where null sec actually works, then yell hysterically see its broken, Incursions give too much ISK, levels 4's are too safe etc. ad nauseum... Dracvlad yawns and hopes that the CCP under its current management sees though the bull put out by one segment of its player base...
Ella's Snack bar
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10826
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 18:36:01 -
[456] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:[ We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null. You will have. Sov Index baby. CCP is giving you your reason in a couple months. Be patient. We have no info so right now we will continue to hammer home the message that fozziesov will fail if the rewards are not there. So to prove that point they will go destroy all the IHUB's in Provi, the one area where null sec actually works, then yell hysterically see its broken, Incursions give too much ISK, levels 4's are too safe etc. ad nauseum... Dracvlad yawns and hopes that the CCP under its current management sees though the bull put out by one segment of its player base...
Translation: I am powerless, dear Icelandic God, I hope someone else (CCP) does something about this, because I can't be arsed to go help Provi marshal an actual defense.
his is the only reasons Goons roll over everything now. At least I've been actually fighting them.
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Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
79
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Posted - 2015.04.28 18:41:13 -
[457] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Translation: I am powerless, dear Icelandic God, I hope someone else (CCP) does something about this, because I can't be arsed to go help Provi marshal an actual defense.
his is the only reasons Goons roll over everything now. At least I've been actually fighting them.
This is even touchin my old withered heart
Can I stand back and watch Provi Polandise?
Should I send the fams into the grinder as the Supers close in all around?
Decisions decisions |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
881
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Posted - 2015.04.28 18:44:58 -
[458] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:[ We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null. You will have. Sov Index baby. CCP is giving you your reason in a couple months. Be patient. We have no info so right now we will continue to hammer home the message that fozziesov will fail if the rewards are not there. So to prove that point they will go destroy all the IHUB's in Provi, the one area where null sec actually works, then yell hysterically see its broken, Incursions give too much ISK, levels 4's are too safe etc. ad nauseum... Dracvlad yawns and hopes that the CCP under its current management sees though the bull put out by one segment of its player base... Translation: I am powerless, dear Icelandic God, I hope someone else (CCP) does something about this, because I can't be arsed to go help Provi marshal an actual defense. his is the only reasons Goons roll over everything now. At least I've been actually fighting them.
You fighting the Goons, another one of your fantasies...
Ella's Snack bar
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15744
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 21:08:14 -
[459] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: So to prove that point they will go destroy all the IHUB's in Provi
Any potential burning of provi (one of the most poor areas of null) has literally nothing at all to do with the subject of this thread.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12831
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 22:15:06 -
[460] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: So to prove that point they will go destroy all the IHUB's in Provi, the one area where null sec actually works
Ha ha, what? Are we talking about the same Provi? The nightmarishly convoluted, pants on head rules enforced solely by CVA's whiny attempts at social pressure?
Provi, and it's hand wringing, limp wristed proponents, is one of the game's biggest jokes.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1073
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Posted - 2015.04.28 23:12:19 -
[461] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:^^ok.
As to the OP, incursion income is out of whack in HS, related to other activities. I would increase the risk, and leave income potential at the current levels. Remove Concord response in incursion systems. Let the players dictate the risk levels. then you might as well go to lowsec. honestly most players risk billion isk+ ships to run incursions, but if they don't ever lose them then I guess that isn't much of a risk. but that risk gets hard to quantify as not losing a ship depends on other players doing their role. most of my incursion experience was running VGs at off peak hours, and as far as that goes I'd rather just run lv4 missions. maybe these days the communities are better and you can do HQs/Assaults or whatever you do at more hours so that would be one thing, but also that HQs have a double? payout of VGs. and then there are scouts which got "buffed" but apparently to a state where they are useless. I have yet to ever ask anything be "nerfed", especially incomes. In a way, this would be asking for a "buff" to PvP, by removing the NPC oversight during (sigh) an NPC event. Why not throw in the Drifters/Sleepers, and belt rats too and make it an NPC fest, and we can all sit around and watch the NPC's fight each other. And then fight each other to scoop up the loot drops... Less NPCs all around, it is supposed to be PvP is it not? Or maybe I joined EvE for all the wrong reasons....? Sighs...
one persons buff to pvp is another persons nerf to income. Lowsec incursions get better payouts as a compensation for the additional risk, and well I'm not so sure how often they actually get run. Hell I've seen people complain 0.0 incursions aren't worth doing either.
and just because some people are doing PVE here, doesn't mean there aren't people doing pvp there. as much as some people want pvp everywhere all the time, there are plenty of people who don't, and I'm okay with that.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1074
|
Posted - 2015.04.28 23:45:47 -
[462] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:[ We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null. You will have. Sov Index baby. CCP is giving you your reason in a couple months. Be patient. We have no info so right now we will continue to hammer home the message that fozziesov will fail if the rewards are not there.
that has been my main issue with 0.0 for as long as I've been playing. It never felt like it was worth it to be in null as an individual, Ratting/anoms feel constricting to me. If more than a few people want to be active a system can't support that. Sure when you are part of a blue doughnut empire you can just switch systems. I just don't understand why they haven't added any group PVE for null. I want to play with people! plus if a fight comes along I want to be in some sort of position to take the fight rather than have half a dozen people scattered over a constellation and the best move being safe up.
@ChainsawPlankto
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SilentAsTheGrave
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
222
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Posted - 2015.04.29 00:12:12 -
[463] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:[ We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null. You will have. Sov Index baby. CCP is giving you your reason in a couple months. Be patient. We have no info so right now we will continue to hammer home the message that fozziesov will fail if the rewards are not there. "We don't know anything concrete, so instead of offering suggestion in F+I to improve the new NS, Im going to whine in a thread opposed to HS Incursions" If you want better for NS, go post in any number of the threads CCP put up asking for players opinions on how stuff should change going forward, if you think NS needs more PVE related income, go suggest that. They have already improved production, they have already improved mining, it stands to reason they will be open to discussion on improving PVE aspects as well. Im sure you will have a much easier time convincing them of NS shortfalls than <1% of the EVE population making bank in HS at any given time, being unfair. It's baltec1. Did you actually expect anything but illogical thoughts to escape his mouth?
Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1737
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 00:17:28 -
[464] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:[ We dont want the best option to be in highsec for income, we want to have a reason to be out in null. You will have. Sov Index baby. CCP is giving you your reason in a couple months. Be patient. We have no info so right now we will continue to hammer home the message that fozziesov will fail if the rewards are not there. that has been my main issue with 0.0 for as long as I've been playing. It never felt like it was worth it to be in null as an individual, Ratting/anoms feel constricting to me. If more than a few people want to be active a system can't support that. Sure when you are part of a blue doughnut empire you can just switch systems. I just don't understand why they haven't added any group PVE for null. I want to play with people! plus if a fight comes along I want to be in some sort of position to take the fight rather than have half a dozen people scattered over a constellation and the best move being safe up.
The problem of lack of group content is completely related to the omnipresence of alts. Why would you do something with someone when you can do it by yourself? Your alt is pretty much just as good as anyone at doing most PvE in EVE. Anything you can "team up with friends" to do can be done with alts too and then you keep the whole proceedings instead of just a fraction of it. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
71
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Posted - 2015.04.29 00:37:34 -
[465] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote: one persons buff to pvp is another persons nerf to income. Lowsec incursions get better payouts as a compensation for the additional risk, and well I'm not so sure how often they actually get run. Hell I've seen people complain 0.0 incursions aren't worth doing either.
and just because some people are doing PVE here, doesn't mean there aren't people doing pvp there. as much as some people want pvp everywhere all the time, there are plenty of people who don't, and I'm okay with that.
Everyone I know in lowsec would rather NOT have incursions there, it just spoils their PvP battles.
One last try at compromise:
My Momma always had a wooden spoon as a weapon. Give the Sansha Momma a Lux Kontos. And somebody done made Momma mad... |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
5040
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 00:58:51 -
[466] - Quote
/signed, highsec incursion ISK printing is a cancer, and EVE needs some chemotherapy.
The Ishtar was overpowered in starship combat PVP, and it was (correctly) nerfed to bring it into line. Sucks a bit for me as I like flying the Ishtar, but the right decision was made for game balance.
Highsec incursions are considerably more unbalanced in ISK generation PVP than the Ishtar ever was in starship combat PVP.
It is possible to inflict damage on incursion runners with ganks, but the presence of acceleration gates and flaws in the Sansha AI provide a level of protection to incursion grinders that is not commensurate with the income stream.
A fix to the AI issues would bring quite a bit more balance into the equation. A change to make Sansha rats ignore EWAR (including warp scrambling) unless it is aimed at them would make ganking incursion grinders more viable.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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d0cTeR9
Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance
148
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Posted - 2015.04.29 03:02:40 -
[467] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:Please, make others' enterprise less profitable, or at least make mine more so! It's only fair! Though, I don't do anything remotely like these other people, and never go where they are, the very thought that they're there making ISK just bugs me. So, CCP, take your million dollar machine and turn it toward my inclinations and personal preferences. You know the Great Gaming God is on my side!
/Thread |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1076
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 05:26:49 -
[468] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:The problem of lack of group content is completely related to the omnipresence of alts. Why would you do something with someone when you can do it by yourself? Your alt is pretty much just as good as anyone at doing most PvE in EVE. Anything you can "team up with friends" to do can be done with alts too and then you keep the whole proceedings instead of just a fraction of it.
I hardly think alts are the problem when you only need 1-2 other accounts for the hardest of 0.0 PVE activities. I think some 10/10s are even soloable these days. IMO it is hard to call anoms anything other than solo activities. I do think it is a good thing to have solo activities as sometimes players have limited time to get on and need something they can quickly jump in and out of, but they should for sure have something better to do as a group when they have the time. When you can ISBox incursions then yes imo there is a problem, but CCP seems to have dealt with that. and AFAIK there isn't any 0.0 content like that that is readily available.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Josef Djugashvilis
2940
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 07:56:49 -
[469] - Quote
I have never taken part in an incursion, nor do I wish to, but I am just so jealous that some folk make more isk per hour than me.
CCP please stop folk doing anything that allows them to me make more isk per hour than I do.
Thank you.
This is not a signature.
|
Seven Koskanaiken
Positive Failure Black Legion.
1486
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 08:09:29 -
[470] - Quote
Pay out in LP only, let the market sort it out.
Dracvlad wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:All those thousands of Supercaps, the proliferation of which ruined nullsec.
I'll wager that a larger proportion of those were funded by running incursions. Sorry I think you are wrong, I would wager that the majority of Supers and Titans are owned by people who are in the alliances that directly controlled the Tech during the critical period of its imbalance, and while a significant number of supers may have been funded by Incursions its is totally dwarfed by those funded by moon goo enriched alliances... Its the Technicium imbalance that screwed up Eve, Incursions are the equivalent of peeing in a rain storm...
The drone alloys caused the proliferation of supers. |
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Otso Bakarti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
110
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 08:18:27 -
[471] - Quote
I see the usual suspects are keeping this line of BS live. Really, there's nothing on earth that rates this much bandwidth, not even The Ultimate Question.
42 Right back atcha. (And, yes. Call me a carebear again. It seems to do so much for you.)
We aim to PLEASE!!
I survived Win95
|
Dextrome Thorphan
RvB - RED Federation
121
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 08:29:31 -
[472] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
I dunno man... I find incursions to be one of the most boring activities... I even find doing nullsec anoms with a passive drone fit less boring, and more profitable (I know this ain't highsec but meh... not much risk involved in running anoms either if you don't go afk). |
Dextrome Thorphan
RvB - RED Federation
121
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 08:37:44 -
[473] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Please, make others' enterprise less profitable, or at least make mine more so! It's only fair! Though, I don't do anything remotely like these other people, and never go where they are, the very thought that they're there making ISK just bugs me. So, CCP, take your million dollar machine and turn it toward my inclinations and personal preferences. You know the Great Gaming God is on my side! I dont what? I run incursions since 2011 when they came out mr. With 2 or 3 accounts, lately only 2 or 1 depends. I know every single thing about incursions and how bad they truly are. (in terms of how much they destroy the real eve) Im only here to expose them because Im tired of this "eve" of today and miss the old one, the one without incursions.
So basically, you earned a shitload off of incursions and now you're sick of them and are doing them less and less... so now is the time to start complaining? So other people can't earn that much now that you aren't doing them full-time anymore? Give me a break :p
I agree about the risk vs reward thing, but it just seems kind of lame how first you exploit it for years and then start complaining about it. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
449
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 08:44:06 -
[474] - Quote
Dextrome Thorphan wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Please, make others' enterprise less profitable, or at least make mine more so! It's only fair! Though, I don't do anything remotely like these other people, and never go where they are, the very thought that they're there making ISK just bugs me. So, CCP, take your million dollar machine and turn it toward my inclinations and personal preferences. You know the Great Gaming God is on my side! I dont what? I run incursions since 2011 when they came out mr. With 2 or 3 accounts, lately only 2 or 1 depends. I know every single thing about incursions and how bad they truly are. (in terms of how much they destroy the real eve) Im only here to expose them because Im tired of this "eve" of today and miss the old one, the one without incursions. So basically, you earned a shitload off of incursions and now you're sick of them and are doing them less and less... so now is the time to start complaining? So other people can't earn that much now that you aren't doing them full-time anymore? Give me a break :p I agree about the risk vs reward thing, but it just seems kind of lame how first you exploit it for years and then start complaining about it.
its not the first time this discussion has been brought up and i doubt it will be the last
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Mithandra
Catastrophic Operations Nulli Secunda
254
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Posted - 2015.04.29 10:18:58 -
[475] - Quote
Do they pay out too much isk for the risk... obviously
Am I going to jump on the nerf incursions bandwagon.. nope
Why?
Because I don't do them and they don't affect the way I play.
And before you start. Im not interested in your 400 pages of financial asshattery "proving" that incursions are killing eve, cos I look out of my window and see shedloads of people playing the game still.
Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2093
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 11:14:29 -
[476] - Quote
Dextrome Thorphan wrote:
So basically, you earned a shitload off of incursions and now you're sick of them and are doing them less and less... so now is the time to start complaining? So other people can't earn that much now that you aren't doing them full-time anymore? Give me a break :p
I agree about the risk vs reward thing, but it just seems kind of lame how first you exploit it for years and then start complaining about it.
It's even better, Incursions have already been Nerfed since 2011 once anyway. What they are complaining about is the formation of resilient adaptable communities that have learnt to deal with all the things gankers do. They travel fit their ships when moving, they move the super valuable modules in blockade runners or other cloaky ships that enter warp fast, they overheat tank when targeted or even if gankers simply appear on grid, logi know to pre lock when gankers are around on certain priority targets and pre overheat reps, yet apparently.... the formation of such a community of aware involved people is bad...... Apparently you can't succeed at EVE unless you play the Gankers way, otherwise they will demand it be nerfed or EVE will die.... or something like that. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
454
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 11:22:58 -
[477] - Quote
you make it sound like you put effort into defending when really you just have to wait like 15secs then concord deals with everything then you can go back to the highest paid safest activity in eve, its not really about ganking its about risk and reward compared to the likes of nullsec which doesnt earn as much as highsec incursions.
if someone earns more than the guy risking more then obviously there is an imbalance and highsec incursions are not balanced with the rest of the activities in eve
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
22196
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 11:27:35 -
[478] - Quote
Mithandra wrote:Do they pay out too much isk for the risk... obviously
Am I going to jump on the nerf incursions bandwagon.. nope
Why?
Because I don't do them and they don't affect the way I play.
And before you start. Im not interested in your 400 pages of financial asshattery "proving" that incursions are killing eve, cos I look out of my window and see shedloads of people playing the game still. Nit caring about the greater good is pretty common nowadays.
As long as they only detain everyone else it's all fine. No need to raise your voice about it. When they come for you, there will be no one left to raise his voice.
Selfish prick.
I wish you a slow, agonising death with screams and tears of pain and horror.
Have everything you posess taken away from you.
Most importantly ... yourself.
Corpses4Drifters
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1740
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 11:57:50 -
[479] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Mithandra wrote:Do they pay out too much isk for the risk... obviously
Am I going to jump on the nerf incursions bandwagon.. nope
Why?
Because I don't do them and they don't affect the way I play.
And before you start. Im not interested in your 400 pages of financial asshattery "proving" that incursions are killing eve, cos I look out of my window and see shedloads of people playing the game still. Nit caring about the greater good is pretty common nowadays. As long as they only detain everyone else it's all fine. No need to raise your voice about it. When they come for you, there will be no one left to raise his voice. Selfish prick.
Making a big deal out of everything is just as common.
When something really big comes, people are tired of the bullshitting you already generated over banalities and will let you to protest alone. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
22206
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 12:05:45 -
[480] - Quote
Yeah that's actually common practise nowadays. It's a great way to influence the masses. ^_^
I wish you a slow, agonising death with screams and tears of pain and horror.
Have everything you posess taken away from you.
Most importantly ... yourself.
Corpses4Drifters
|
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Seifer Al'Masy
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
23
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Posted - 2015.04.29 12:16:44 -
[481] - Quote
Sadly, in Eve, Incursions are basicly the only form of group PvE. Every other activity is made solo(Missions, ratting, even mining have become a "one person with multiple accounts", apart from the ocasional Corp mining fleet-weekly ).
Removing Incursions would be remoning a big part of Group PvE. In an MMO, it's a sad thing.
It's the only reason I run Incursion, the fact that I'm in a group with others doing some PvE and making some isk. and having a laugh over coms.
Many people use Incursions as an easy and fast way to make isk, and then go spend it on other Public groups doing PvP. And that's a good thing, people having isk to go and explode ships.
So, no. We need Incursions, and we could also have some other forms of group PvE. New types of missions, for example.....
Seifer |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12832
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 12:22:31 -
[482] - Quote
Seifer Al'Masy wrote: Sadly, in Eve, Incursions are basicly the only form of group PvE.
While that statement is true, I do not think it justifies permitting such a huge imbalance to continue.
The basic problem with group PvE as a concept is that it will be gamed and exploited, as incursions currently are) if it's beneficial to play compared to solo activities. I honestly can't think of a way CCP could avoid that particular pitfall.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10831
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 13:16:56 -
[483] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:
if someone earns more than the guy risking more then obviously there is an imbalance and highsec incursions are not balanced with the rest of the activities in eve.
And that's really the entire point of the matter. The imbalance creates a huge distortion.
I've done a lot of PVE and I loved Incursions when they started. Can't do then for every long because they are so routine now I get bored. At least with null anomalies I can play around with fits and try different things, doing that in an incursion gets you booted from fleet lol.
But when I really sat back and did my personal time trials, I was appalled. In a good Incursion fleet we could do 4 HQ sites per hour or more (pray for TCRCs lol). 4 Sites, converting the LP for 1k isk per LP ios 154 mil, and all it takes to sustain that is "fleet up for incursions during late USTZ or early AUTZ". Much less (almost no) contests, almost no down time.
Contrast that with using my mach in null, pulling in 25 mil ticks. 25 mil every 20 minutes used to be "WOW, great!". Now doing that leaves me feeling like "yay, I just made half as much in an hour as I would have had i simply logged in my Incursion toon".. And the lamest thing of all is that I would have beat BOTH incursions and null anomalies had I logged in my Faction Warfare alt and flew around in a Purifier killing 2 or 3 npcs per mission per system....
And that's the distortion. Overly safe incursions and insanely stupid "mega isk with a frigate" faction warfare creates the situation where you are effectively punished for taking any risk.... For the purpose of generating isk for plex and ships and fun, It's stupid to rat with my Mach in null sec and risk losing a 500 mil isk hull when I could make MORE isk for things I want by using a piddly stealth bomber in FW, or using the same mach hull in CONCORD and logi protected high sec doing incursions.
Because those insane things exist, someone saying "you can still choose to do something else" is a really dumb false choice.
This game shouldn't be punishing people for taking risk. It should be saying (and it used to say) "wow, you took an expensive ship to low/null/wormhole space which incidentally creates content for others, here is a level of reward suitable for actually having some balls". We should all WANT people flying outside of high sec in expensive ships that can be targets.
Incidentally. This is why low sec lvl 5 blitzing with carriers is ok, it's a lot of wealth generated, but you're doing it with a capital ship, that's a big investment in time and isk as well as risking an embarrassing kill mail and the pain of having to replace a (now) hard to move capital ship. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2186
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 13:37:48 -
[484] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:I have never taken part in an incursion, nor do I wish to, but I am just so jealous that some folk make more isk per hour than me.
CCP please stop folk doing anything that allows them to me make more isk per hour than I do.
Thank you. It's about risk vs. reward. If drifters started randomly appearing on incursion grids and occasionally doomsday'd a carebears pinata then perhaps it could stay as is. If incursion runners couldn't dodge wardecs by just dropping to an NPC corp then perhaps it could stay as is. But as is today incursions are a huge risk-free ISK faucet that are being farmed. Dank ISK should come from null or WH's, with losec in the middle; more risk, more reward...
CCP has nerfed the hell out of hisec agression mechanics in recent years, time to bring balance back by nerfing this ridiculous ISK faucet also. The little carebears shouldn't get their cake and eat it too.
F
Would you like to know more?
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
22267
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 13:43:21 -
[485] - Quote
Drifters in incursions ... ... popping Sanshas faster than players ... ... popping the moms ... ... and even the players.
That would be glorious!
I wish you a slow, agonising death with screams and tears of pain and horror.
Have everything you posess taken away from you.
Most importantly ... yourself.
Corpses4Drifters
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
886
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 14:03:21 -
[486] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
The drone alloys caused the proliferation of supers.
That allowed them to be built easier in that region, but the question of being able to buy easily is also part of the equations and yes Incursions had their part in this, but its small compared to the number of supers and titans that ended up in the hands of the alliances that were involved in the Tech agreement, do people understand the concept of developing your asset base to further reinforce your success, well obviously not. But if an alliance replaces all your ship losses with Tech funded SRP then you have more ISK to buy better things don't you, simple maths basically.
Incursions allowed some smaller entities to gain the ISK to buy capitals, nothing more than that.
Ella's Snack bar
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Mario Putzo
1310
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:01:54 -
[487] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:I have never taken part in an incursion, nor do I wish to, but I am just so jealous that some folk make more isk per hour than me.
CCP please stop folk doing anything that allows them to me make more isk per hour than I do.
Thank you. It's about risk vs. reward. If drifters started randomly appearing on incursion grids and occasionally doomsday'd a carebears pinata then perhaps it could stay as is. If incursion runners couldn't dodge wardecs by just dropping to an NPC corp then perhaps it could stay as is. But as is today incursions are a huge risk-free ISK faucet that are being farmed. Dank ISK should come from null or WH's, with losec in the middle; more risk, more reward... CCP has nerfed the hell out of hisec agression mechanics in recent years, time to bring balance back by nerfing this ridiculous ISK faucet also. The little carebears shouldn't get their cake and eat it too. F
Putting 30B+ into an engagement that can go sideways if people aren't doing their jobs is risk, the reward is making much more isk/hr than you would if you fielded fleets with much less isk investment. CCP even acknowledged this in their DEV post in the Hyperion Incursion Changes where they stated HS folks are using much more expensive fleets to clear sites faster than they would be able to otherwise. Just because these folks have taken steps to minimize risk does not mean they are absolved of risk. The risk is still there, they simply have accounted for it.
<1% of the entire EVE population can run incursions at any given time (Cluster Wide) it is not a ridiculous isk faucet, it is actually quite tame compared to ISK generated from Mission running/anoms/ratting, http://crossingzebras.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/rS2Gxq9.jpg
In regards to dank isk coming from NS. If that is something you desire, then perhaps you should make a suggestion to CCP about how Incursions roll through NS. NS is not as easy to traverse (time wise) as HS, perhaps there should be more incursions in NS so folks can also run them, or maybe CCP could add other pirate faction incursion like events, ie. Guristas sending out fleets to **** around regions near Venal.
There is nothing wrong with incursions, and risk/reward is not married to PVP, it also applies to PVE, if you don't like that thought, to bad, because risk is risk whether its an NPC providing it or a player. I mean its not like incursion runners have 0 PVP exposure, folks lose their incursion ships all the time, they lose their Bowheads and multiple incursion ships too. Ultimately it all comes back to...these guys make more isk than me, and I can't be assed to participate in them because :effort:. Nothing stopping you from participating, except your own personal choice not to.
Not all space is equal, different regions offer more lucrative activities than others, EVE isn't fair.
|
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
116
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:07:21 -
[488] - Quote
[quote=Mario Putzo Not all space is equal, different regions offer more lucrative activities than others, EVE isn't fair.
[/quote]
EXACTLY!!! LOL
Thats what everyone is saying dude! Yet the developers and everyone in thjs thread not an idiot realise and say that Hisec should be the LEAST LUCRATIVE AREA!
Highest securtiy/lowest risk == least lucrative.
Devs have stated this is goal/intention always as well and admit hisec incursion isk is too high.
You finally said one correct sentance though! Yay! |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1741
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:17:21 -
[489] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: Devs have stated this is goal/intention always as well and admit hisec incursion isk is too high.
You have a source for that other than 1 dev saying he think they might be paying too much?
A dev no longer with CCP... |
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
116
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:20:07 -
[490] - Quote
Dude said All areas of space not as lucrative as others.
Exactly!!!
Running L4s in a maurader and billions of isk from safe hisec incursions with only chance of dying is someone falling asleep SHOULDNT BE MOST LUCRATIVE ISK IN GAME
Hisec ventures should be LEAST lucrative. You are ignorant if you think otherwise.
Eve was founded on risk=reward |
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10836
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:20:56 -
[491] - Quote
ha ha ha ha (continues evil laugh).
It's always funny when someone post something thinking it supports their argument, when in fact it proves the opposite.
In this case, here is Mario Putzo proving that AT BEST a few hundred Incursion Runners generated almost 1/3rd as much as tens of thousands of mission and anomaly runners. Almost 10 TRIILION isk in incursion rewards in a month (and since we know how little low and null incursions are done, we know that the overwhelming lion's share of incursion rewards are paid in high sec), in an activity that this poster claims can only accommodate a few people, compared to 30 trillion isk in bounties for the entire rest of the EVE PVE community.
In other words, Putzo demonstrated the game altering imbalance that he declares isn't a problem, because a few hundred people can generate so much isk it's comparable to the activities and efforts of tens of thousands of other players. Thanks Mario, we needed the back up there.
|
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
459
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:22:28 -
[492] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Putting 30B+ into an engagement that can go sideways if people aren't doing their jobs is risk
losing ships to NPCs is not risk, it is incompetence
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Mario Putzo
1310
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Posted - 2015.04.29 15:29:15 -
[493] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: EXACTLY!!! LOL
Thats what everyone is saying dude! Yet the developers and everyone in thjs thread not an idiot realise and say that Hisec should be the LEAST LUCRATIVE AREA! Highest securtiy/lowest risk == least lucrative.
Devs have stated this is goal/intention always as well and admit hisec incursion isk is too high.
Admitted it, then buffed it. Weird.
There is no written rule that HS should be the least lucrative. Even without incursions LV4s still generate more ISK/hr than NS activities, heck L3s can to if you do them right. HS has a monopoly on PVE events, NS on PVP events. Want to PVP go live in NS, want to PVE live in HS, want a little from both live in LS.
NS folks cry Nerf Nerf Nerf Nerf. To what end? Hope folks suddenly decide living in the ass end of the cluster is worth their time/effort. Nerfing HS doesn't make people desire going to other space. Proven when they moved L5s, Proven with the industry changes last year, will be proven again with the mining changes yesterday.
HS has very good PVE, with less risk...big whoop, I can get more PVP in NS with less risk...big whoop. Different space is different. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1741
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:33:44 -
[494] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Putting 30B+ into an engagement that can go sideways if people aren't doing their jobs is risk losing ships to NPCs is not risk, it is incompetence
As long as the EVE player base consider stacking the odds in their advantage to be the sign of not messing up, PvP loss are also incompetence... |
Mario Putzo
1310
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:35:23 -
[495] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:ha ha ha ha (continues evil laugh). It's always funny when someone post something thinking it supports their argument, when in fact it proves the opposite. In this case, here is Mario Putzo proving that AT BEST a few hundred Incursion Runners generated almost 1/3rd as much as tens of thousands of mission and anomaly runners. Almost 10 TRIILION isk in incursion rewards in a month (and since we know how little low and null incursions are done, we know that the overwhelming lion's share of incursion rewards are paid in high sec), in an activity that this poster claims can only accommodate a few people, compared to 30 trillion isk in bounties for the entire rest of the EVE PVE community.In other words, Putzo demonstrated the game altering imbalance that he declares isn't a problem, because a few hundred people can generate so much isk it's comparable to the activities and efforts of tens of thousands of other players. Thanks Mario, we needed the back up there.
Its still a limited faucet no matter how you try to spin it, it is not the largest faucet by any means, and is essentially soft capped. So basically your entire whine is that some folks are making a bunch of ISK more than others. Big deal. Go do them if you want, nothing prevents you from doing them, and nothing forces you to do them. The number of of folks doing them vs others doing other things is irrelevant, its a system that is designed to be capable of only putting so much isk into the economy, where as bounties are limitless, and can be done by anyone, thus everything you have written is irrelevant. Incursions can only generate isk to a cap, if it is capped it isn't a faucet, it is a well. and once the well runs out, you have to wait for it to refill.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1741
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 15:35:33 -
[496] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Eve was founded on risk=reward
It was a neat idea that never worked. CCP never really made anything for it so you could almost say it's not a DEV supported idea. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
887
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 16:11:41 -
[497] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:I have never taken part in an incursion, nor do I wish to, but I am just so jealous that some folk make more isk per hour than me.
CCP please stop folk doing anything that allows them to me make more isk per hour than I do.
Thank you. It's about risk vs. reward. If drifters started randomly appearing on incursion grids and occasionally doomsday'd a carebears pinata then perhaps it could stay as is. If incursion runners couldn't dodge wardecs by just dropping to an NPC corp then perhaps it could stay as is. But as is today incursions are a huge risk-free ISK faucet that are being farmed. Dank ISK should come from null or WH's, with losec in the middle; more risk, more reward... CCP has nerfed the hell out of hisec agression mechanics in recent years, time to bring balance back by nerfing this ridiculous ISK faucet also. The little carebears shouldn't get their cake and eat it too. F
Prospect does not have +2 warp core stab built in for a start.
Perhaps we should have started the scale as +25 HTFU and you still have 12 points to get to zero...
Perhaps you would say that the change in mechanic two years ago so that you could no longer warp and then scoop as being a HTFU nerf.
You might also note that some of the nerfs have reduced the opportunity to do execution style helpless cattle to the slaughter PvP. My heart does not exactly weep for you over that.
What is certainly true is that people have different points to what they call balanced, for example the tank of a wet paper bag that mining ships had for many years was a total and utter imbalance for me, yet you would call that balanced.
I do not see at most 100 people out of the thousands in hisec running Incursions at ISK levels slightly above Anom ratting in null sec with a carrier as a massive imbalance, and I can say that with no hypocrisy on my part as I have run in my time about 15 sites in an Incursion in my time in Eve.
Can you people just HTFU and gank them if it upsets you so much..., though in your case I could never call you a gank bear, you fight and do full on PvP stuff, you are just upset that the past easy kills require more effort, but you do know that on the flip side its easier to catch people compared to what it used to be like, with D-scan immunity for certain ships and of course differing warp speeds. There is balance, but you just do not want to see it...
Ella's Snack bar
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Mario Putzo
1313
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 17:07:28 -
[498] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Putting 30B+ into an engagement that can go sideways if people aren't doing their jobs is risk losing ships to NPCs is not risk, it is incompetence
Losing a ships in PVP isn't risk it is incompetence. Every loss in this game is preventable, so anyone with a loss on their KB is just incompetent right?
Risk/Reward is an immeasurable metric, it varies wildly person to person and has no concrete floor or ceiling, as such it can not be used a balancing metric, which is why it has never been used as one.
Balance on income is done to facilitate a healthy growing economy, without making isk itself entirely worthless vs PLEX (this is to preserve CCPs income stream). Incursions themselves are a capped income source, you can not do any more incursions than exist at one time, they are on a scheduled timer so only certain numbers of them can be active. Thus it is balanced, and CCP noting that incursion income on the whole was less than other sources just lowered the respawn time of these events 6 months ago, meaning CCP does not see an issue with Incursions generating isk in a way that impacts the ISK/PLEX ratio negatively.
Now. If the argument in this thread was "Increase the frequency of regional NS incursions" that would be something I imagine many people would support. The nice thing about HS is its compact, central, and quick to go from one side to the other. Unfortunately NS does not share this, It takes a long time to move through the whole of NS, which makes NS incursion running much more sporadic than that of HS. This in and of itself has nothing to do with HS, and everything to do with the layout of EVE and the fact NS is just spread out more.
As I said earlier instead of complaining about HS, ask CCP to make NS incursion running more efficient, and less sporadic. Ask them to focus on making more frequent incursions in any given region as to facilitate similar travel distance/time as it is in HS. This is ultimately the only difference between the two, and a NS incursion fleet will be just as hard to gank as a HS incursion fleet, and net the same rewards.
The issue is with NS, not HS, so ask CCP to fix the issue mechanically, and not leaning on some crutch buzz phrase, that has never been used to balance anything in the game.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15751
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 17:27:42 -
[499] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
The drone alloys caused the proliferation of supers.
That allowed them to be built easier in that region, but the question of being able to buy easily is also part of the equations and yes Incursions had their part in this, but its small compared to the number of supers and titans that ended up in the hands of the alliances that were involved in the Tech agreement, do people understand the concept of developing your asset base to further reinforce your success, well obviously not. But if an alliance replaces all your ship losses with Tech funded SRP then you have more ISK to buy better things don't you, simple maths basically. Incursions allowed some smaller entities to gain the ISK to buy capitals, nothing more than that.
Yet again.
We held almost all the tech moons yet we had the smallest supercap fleet for the entire time that the tech flowed. WN steamrolled the old NC with their supercaps and the only reason they didn't headshot VFK was because at the time TIDI wasn't in place and we rapecaged our own staging system and sacrificed tens of thousands of subcaps. If TIDI had been in place back then we would have lost. WN had no tech moons.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
22354
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 17:28:29 -
[500] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Losing a ships in PVP isn't risk it is incompetence. Actually, after writing that long post I realise that ... ... there's only one thing to say about this line.
lol.
I wish you a slow, agonising death with screams and tears of pain and horror.
Have everything you posess taken away from you.
Most importantly ... yourself.
Corpses4Drifters
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15751
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 17:30:29 -
[501] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Its still limited no matter how you try to spin it, it is not the largest faucet by any means, and is essentially soft capped. So basically your entire whine is that some folks are making a bunch of ISK more than others. Big deal. Go do them if you want, nothing prevents you from doing them, and nothing forces you to do them. The number of of folks doing them vs others doing other things is irrelevant, its a system that is designed to be capable of only putting so much isk into the economy, where as bounties are limitless, and can be done by anyone, thus everything you have written is irrelevant. Incursions can only generate isk to a cap, if it is capped it isn't a faucet, it is a well. and once the well runs out, you have to wait for it to refill.
Anoms also have a cap. We still have the situation where the safest area of space is more rewarding than the most dangerous.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Lendren
The Obsidian Core TCC.
5
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 17:46:50 -
[502] - Quote
People follow the path of least resistance for success. There isn't anything wrong with making isk in mission-like saftey, because the things they want to spend that isk on are generated by activities in low/null/wh and cannot be generated in hi sec. It's not like hi sec incursions drop sleeper salvage, deadspace loot or Arkonor/Bisot or moon goo or anything else you actually need to create the vast quantities of ships/mods/rigs/ammo consumed by the EVE populace at large. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15752
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 17:51:13 -
[503] - Quote
Lendren wrote:People follow the path of least resistance for success. There isn't anything wrong with making isk in mission environments because the things you want to spend that isk on are generated by activities in low/null/wh and cannot be generated in hi sec. It's not like hi sec incursions drop sleeper salvage, deadspace loot or Arkonor/Bisot or moon goo or anything else you actually need to create the vast quantities of ships/mods/rigs/ammo consumed by the EVE populace at large.
There is everything wrong with expending more effort and taking on more risk for less reward. Why exactly would anyone want to move out to null if they can make more in highsec?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Mario Putzo
1315
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 17:52:37 -
[504] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Its still limited no matter how you try to spin it, it is not the largest faucet by any means, and is essentially soft capped. So basically your entire whine is that some folks are making a bunch of ISK more than others. Big deal. Go do them if you want, nothing prevents you from doing them, and nothing forces you to do them. The number of of folks doing them vs others doing other things is irrelevant, its a system that is designed to be capable of only putting so much isk into the economy, where as bounties are limitless, and can be done by anyone, thus everything you have written is irrelevant. Incursions can only generate isk to a cap, if it is capped it isn't a faucet, it is a well. and once the well runs out, you have to wait for it to refill.
Anoms also have a cap. We still have the situation where the safest area of space is more rewarding than the most dangerous.
Which is irrelevant because nothing in this game has ever been balanced through this crutch you call risk/reward. It has always been balanced relative to ones ability to live and operate in that region.
HS gets the monopoly on PVE. NS gets the monopoly on PVP.
Different gameplay metrics, represented distinctly in different gameplay regions.
NS can comfortably afford to live/thrive in its environment, HS can comfortably afford to live/thrive in its.
HS requires much more isk investment for PVP, wardecs, ganking. NS does not need these things, as such people living in HS require more ISK just so they can functionally PVP. NS requires less isk because they do not have to pay to PVP. NS has more opportunity to PVP while making less isk, thus HS is required to pay to PVP because they make more ISK.
Yosemite? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15752
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:01:51 -
[505] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Which is irrelevant because nothing in this game has ever been balanced through this crutch you call risk/reward. It has always been balanced relative to ones ability to live and operate in that region.
Wrong. Originally null was hands down the best best isk, even via belt ratting. CCP broke this with level 4s and over the years it has become more and more broken due to a mix of ever higher rewards from highsec activities and inflation. Its about time they fix it.
Mario Putzo wrote: HS gets the monopoly on PVE. NS gets the monopoly on PVP.
Wrong, High sec gets safety while nullsec gets the higher reward. Otherwise there is no reason to ever leave highsec. Different gameplay metrics, represented distinctly in different gameplay regions.
Mario Putzo wrote: NS can comfortably afford to live/thrive in its environment, HS can comfortably afford to live/thrive in its.
NS is mostly all but abandoned with most systems seen as worthless, so again you are wrong.
Mario Putzo wrote: HS requires much more isk investment for PVP, wardecs, ganking. NS does not need these things
When was the last time you spent several trillion defending your highsec system?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
ISD Supogo
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
487
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:08:52 -
[506] - Quote
Removed a rule-breaking post and those quoting it.
Quote:Forum rules2. Be respectful toward others at all times.The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others. 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
ISD Supogo
Lieutenant Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
887
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:09:21 -
[507] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
The drone alloys caused the proliferation of supers.
That allowed them to be built easier in that region, but the question of being able to buy easily is also part of the equations and yes Incursions had their part in this, but its small compared to the number of supers and titans that ended up in the hands of the alliances that were involved in the Tech agreement, do people understand the concept of developing your asset base to further reinforce your success, well obviously not. But if an alliance replaces all your ship losses with Tech funded SRP then you have more ISK to buy better things don't you, simple maths basically. Incursions allowed some smaller entities to gain the ISK to buy capitals, nothing more than that. Yet again. We held almost all the tech moons yet we had the smallest supercap fleet for the entire time that the tech flowed. WN steamrolled the old NC with their supercaps and the only reason they didn't headshot VFK was because at the time TIDI wasn't in place and we rapecaged our own staging system and sacrificed tens of thousands of subcaps. If TIDI had been in place back then we would have lost. WN had no tech moons.
Sadly for you I was around at the time, the Tech agreement was between you the CFC, NCDOT and their allies Evoke and PL, White Noise and Raiden may have had moons at the point before they collapsed, WN before the Titan tracking nerf and Raiden after. The ending of the Tech agreement was really the Tribute war, which was some time after the fall of WN. I guess you were knitting or something else during that period?
In otherwords yet again you try to hide the massive war chest this agreement gave your alliance / coalition, are you scared of something, maybe you think CCP will attack you with a fleet of Drifters... The imbalance which really distorted the game and still has that massive distortion was the Tech imbalance, this Incursion rubbish being imbalanced is just a load of epeen by jealous people with other agendas...
Ella's Snack bar
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Mario Putzo
1317
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:10:53 -
[508] - Quote
A) This was changed because most people live in HS, and CCP is catering to its largest subscriber base. As they should since they are a business, and businesses exist to generate profits. B) This is some figment of your imagination. The only benefit of living in NS is to PVP without consequence. That is it. Or I guess wrap yourself up in ~narrative~ and build sandcastles. C) NS is abandoned because Coalition gameplay made it so space is unlivable by small groups, Phoebe broke this mold somewhat, Fozziesov will shatter it. D) No one forced you to pay that isk you chose to. NS doesn't just include Sov. You chose to build and empire, you chose to pay for its defense. You could have just as easily pulled an NC. and vacated your holdings instead of dumping ISK into them.
Long story short. Your complaint is entirely baseless. 2 different regions of space that specialize in 2 different aspects of the game. One is a PVE playground, the other is a PVP playground, what you choose to do in either ends of the pool is entirely up to you and no one else. CCP has given everyone the tools they need to live and thrive in all areas, and have continually rebalanced areas that are lacking (NS industry, NS ores, HS Incursion Buffs) CCP gives us the tools, how you use them is up to you. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
248
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:21:21 -
[509] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:C) NS is abandoned because Coalition gameplay made it so space is unlivable by small groups, Phoebe broke this mold somewhat, Fozziesov will shatter it.
For numerous reasons you pointed out and/or acknowledged, it won't. Fozzieesov in it's present incarnation so far as it has been released, doesn't actually provide an obvious impetus to get groups to be motivated to actually take space. Why would small groups want to invade, maintain, and defend space with all the investment of time and resources that entails, as well as the very real risk of losing it all, when the rewards are simply not there? Why not just grind L4s or Incursions then go on roams or NPSI fleets when you want to pew people? Of course this mentality is self-defeating because it empties the rest of the game of population; good luck finding people to shoot at when everyone is in Hi-Sec. Unless the line member can make more in null, where she or he is at risk and creating content, than can someone in perfect safety in hi, the game is fundamentally broken.
Mario Putzo wrote:HS has very good PVE, with less risk...big whoop, I can get more PVP in NS with less risk...big whoop. Different space is different. Again, it's a sandbox, space shouldn't be partitioned by the recommended, designated activity. Which it currently is, therefore in most cases, EvE is a themepark, not a sandbox. Honesty, that is really sad.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
887
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:27:51 -
[510] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:C) NS is abandoned because Coalition gameplay made it so space is unlivable by small groups, Phoebe broke this mold somewhat, Fozziesov will shatter it.
For numerous reasons you pointed out and/or acknowledged, it won't. Fozzieesov in it's present incarnation so far as it has been released, doesn't actually provide an obvious impetus to get groups to be motivated to actually take space. Why would small groups want to invade, maintain, and defend space with all the investment of time and resources that entails, as well as the very real risk of losing it all, when the rewards are simply not there? Why not just grind L4s or Incursions then go on roams or NPSI fleets when you want to pew people? Of course this mentality is self-defeating because it empties the rest of the game of population; good luck finding people to shoot at when everyone is in Hi-Sec. Unless the line member can make more in null, where she or he is at risk and creating content, than can someone in perfect safety in hi, the game is fundamentally broken. Mario Putzo wrote:HS has very good PVE, with less risk...big whoop, I can get more PVP in NS with less risk...big whoop. Different space is different. Again, it's a sandbox, space shouldn't be partitioned by the recommended, designated activity. Which it currently is, therefore in most cases, EvE is a themepark, not a sandbox. Honesty, that is really sad.
I feel I can answer that, because we can, we know it will be rolled over but the fun is to plant your flag and get fights, the trick is not to go too deep with assets until you have in place a coalition of people that can actually put up a fight against something bigger, then its a question of see where it takes you. The big power blocks hate the idea that people could fund this sort of thing by doing Incursions which they cannot really interdict without serious effort, hell even identifying the correct target is difficult. Previously when the Goons wanted to kill someone you would just see a load of Goons camp the hell out of that alliances space to weaken and demoralise the grunts including hisec war decs, and then when ready in came the main attack. Kaboom fail cascade... Its a strategic agenda to control the ISK, Incursions and level 4's are what the people who want to do this use to make ISK, so they want them nerfed so they cannot be threatened...
Ella's Snack bar
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Anuri Suaraj
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:33:20 -
[511] - Quote
I really love this thread.
High sec incursion runners: "Get your hands out of my pocket..."
Low/null sec gankers: "Get rid of incursions so that only we can make bank and also kill a lot of high sec dweebs as they're pushed out into low sec."
And nobody has an agenda, allegedly.
Priceless. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1743
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:37:56 -
[512] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Why exactly would anyone want to move out to null if they can make more in highsec?
By now I'm starting to think the reason as seen by CCP is "because you want to". |
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
118
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:38:15 -
[513] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:A) This was changed because most people live in HS, and CCP is catering to its largest subscriber base. As they should since they are a business, and businesses exist to generate profits.
LOL
How many incurion runners that make BILLIONS of isk a week pay ccp $15 a month cash? Id wager over 75% bux plex off the market SOMEONE ELSE paies ccp $20 for and you use that to sub your account.
Incursion running dont actually hand ccp cash from their wallets.
Take an econ class
|
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
118
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:41:28 -
[514] - Quote
Also ccp just buffed nullsec ore prices to reward players there for higher risk taking and to incentivise hisec players to leave to go to null.
Mario you are probably bill gates rich from incursions, does it really matter to you if they take 1/4 of that isk away from you? Youd still have the several trillions of isk you made and will still EASILY be able to continue to earn enough isk to plex your account with incursions after the nerf.
Do you really need to make 20bill a month risk free in hisec? Aint like 10-15bill enough? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10836
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:42:59 -
[515] - Quote
Anuri Suaraj wrote:I really love this thread.
High sec incursion runners: "Get your hands out of my pocket..."
Low/null sec gankers: "Get rid of incursions so that only we can make bank and also kill a lot of high sec dweebs as they're pushed out into low sec."
And nobody has an agenda, allegedly.
Priceless.
And of course this is incorrect. I'm a PVE player. This developers of this game says it has a 'risk/reward/ scheme, but I'm punished for pursing PVE gameplay in null sec (both sov and NPC), but rewarded for being able to fly a cheap stealth bomber or an incursion hip in protected high security space. The only PVE that adheres to the games risk/reward balance is wormhole space (which I dabble in), but the rest just doesn't make sense mostly.
It's stupid. It wasn't always that way. Back before 2008, you could make a living in high sec via missions, you could have a little extra fun with high sec exploration and be rewarded to a point. But beyond those points, you had to gamble a little, take risks, and pit yourself against hungry PVP types if you wanted to have the real fun (like pirate corp missions, or DED plexes about 6/10s.
But now it's all fouled up, they choice is "sure, go scan down a DED 10/10 that hasn't been changed since 2007 and pray the RNG gods are with you" or "go do incursions, and unless you are stupid enough to platy during EUTZ when contests happen, get the same large pay out every time".
In a way it's a lot like the old clone upgrade scheme ccp just changed: it looks lie a choice....but it's not really a choice because if you don't make the one true choice, you get punished. CCP has said they want to get rid of false choices in the game, and one place that really needs this is PVE.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1743
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:45:22 -
[516] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:A) This was changed because most people live in HS, and CCP is catering to its largest subscriber base. As they should since they are a business, and businesses exist to generate profits. LOL How many incurion runners that make BILLIONS of isk a week pay ccp $15 a month cash? Id wager over 75% bux plex off the market SOMEONE ELSE paies ccp $20 for and you use that to sub your account. Incursion running dont actually hand ccp cash from their wallets. Take an econ class
Who paid the PLEX does not matter. Economy class would make YOU understand CCP don't give a damn about who paid that 20$ as long as they get it. The important metric for them is how many account are active be it paid directly or through PLEX. |
Mario Putzo
1317
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:47:16 -
[517] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:A) This was changed because most people live in HS, and CCP is catering to its largest subscriber base. As they should since they are a business, and businesses exist to generate profits. LOL How many incurion runners that make BILLIONS of isk a week pay ccp $15 a month cash? Id wager over 75% bux plex off the market SOMEONE ELSE paies ccp $20 for and you use that to sub your account. Incursion running dont actually hand ccp cash from their wallets. Take an econ class And ccp makes more money as a result. Don't need an economic class to know 20>15. Grade school math ftw. Point still stands ccp likes hs income high because 75% of their paid subs live and operate there.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1744
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:50:19 -
[518] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Anuri Suaraj wrote:I really love this thread.
High sec incursion runners: "Get your hands out of my pocket..."
Low/null sec gankers: "Get rid of incursions so that only we can make bank and also kill a lot of high sec dweebs as they're pushed out into low sec."
And nobody has an agenda, allegedly.
Priceless. And of course this is incorrect. I'm a PVE player. This developers of this game says it has a 'risk/reward/ scheme, but I'm punished for pursing PVE gameplay in null sec (both sov and NPC), but rewarded for being able to fly a cheap stealth bomber or an incursion hip in protected high security space. The only PVE that adheres to the games risk/reward balance is wormhole space (which I dabble in), but the rest just doesn't make sense mostly. It's stupid. It wasn't always that way. Back before 2008, you could make a living in high sec via missions, you could have a little extra fun with high sec exploration and be rewarded to a point. But beyond those points, you had to gamble a little, take risks, and pit yourself against hungry PVP types if you wanted to have the real fun (like pirate corp missions, or DED plexes above 6/10s). But now it's all fouled up, they choice is "sure, go scan down a DED 10/10 that hasn't been changed since 2007 and pray the RNG gods are with you" or "go do incursions, and unless you are stupid enough to platy during EUTZ when contests happen, get the same large pay out every time". In a way it's a lot like the old clone upgrade scheme ccp just changed: it looks lie a choice....but it's not really a choice because if you don't make the one true choice, you get punished. CCP has said they want to get rid of false choices in the game, and one place that really needs this is PVE.
To me, all you just said is "Since 2008, risk/reward has not been supported by the devs". |
Anuri Suaraj
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:50:45 -
[519] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote: Why exactly would anyone want to move out to null if they can make more in highsec? By now I'm starting to think the reason as seen by CCP is "because you want to".
Exactly.
If EVE is really a freaking sandbox than players should do stuff because they want to, not because they're forced to.
Still, CONCORD presence in incursion space is kind of lame. If Sansha invades a system then their first order of business should be to get rid of the police.
This would allow gankers to gank incursion-runners thus increasing the risk.
Problem solved. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10837
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:51:06 -
[520] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote: Why exactly would anyone want to move out to null if they can make more in highsec? By now I'm starting to think the reason as seen by CCP is "because you want to".
That's what I talk about when I say 'false choices'. It's like someone saying "hey dude, you can stay here in Beverly Hills, do very little and make a milliion bucks a week, or you can choose to leave here and move to the nearest ghetto slum and maybe make minimum wage flipping burgers at a fast food restaurant, and by the way that restaurant gets robbed at least once a week, so good luck".
WTF kind of choice is that lol?
|
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10837
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:52:05 -
[521] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Anuri Suaraj wrote:I really love this thread.
High sec incursion runners: "Get your hands out of my pocket..."
Low/null sec gankers: "Get rid of incursions so that only we can make bank and also kill a lot of high sec dweebs as they're pushed out into low sec."
And nobody has an agenda, allegedly.
Priceless. And of course this is incorrect. I'm a PVE player. This developers of this game says it has a 'risk/reward/ scheme, but I'm punished for pursing PVE gameplay in null sec (both sov and NPC), but rewarded for being able to fly a cheap stealth bomber or an incursion hip in protected high security space. The only PVE that adheres to the games risk/reward balance is wormhole space (which I dabble in), but the rest just doesn't make sense mostly. It's stupid. It wasn't always that way. Back before 2008, you could make a living in high sec via missions, you could have a little extra fun with high sec exploration and be rewarded to a point. But beyond those points, you had to gamble a little, take risks, and pit yourself against hungry PVP types if you wanted to have the real fun (like pirate corp missions, or DED plexes above 6/10s). But now it's all fouled up, they choice is "sure, go scan down a DED 10/10 that hasn't been changed since 2007 and pray the RNG gods are with you" or "go do incursions, and unless you are stupid enough to platy during EUTZ when contests happen, get the same large pay out every time". In a way it's a lot like the old clone upgrade scheme ccp just changed: it looks lie a choice....but it's not really a choice because if you don't make the one true choice, you get punished. CCP has said they want to get rid of false choices in the game, and one place that really needs this is PVE. To me, all you just said is "Since 2008, risk/reward has not been supported by the devs".
Problem is, they think they have been.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1744
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:53:49 -
[522] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Anuri Suaraj wrote:I really love this thread.
High sec incursion runners: "Get your hands out of my pocket..."
Low/null sec gankers: "Get rid of incursions so that only we can make bank and also kill a lot of high sec dweebs as they're pushed out into low sec."
And nobody has an agenda, allegedly.
Priceless. And of course this is incorrect. I'm a PVE player. This developers of this game says it has a 'risk/reward/ scheme, but I'm punished for pursing PVE gameplay in null sec (both sov and NPC), but rewarded for being able to fly a cheap stealth bomber or an incursion hip in protected high security space. The only PVE that adheres to the games risk/reward balance is wormhole space (which I dabble in), but the rest just doesn't make sense mostly. It's stupid. It wasn't always that way. Back before 2008, you could make a living in high sec via missions, you could have a little extra fun with high sec exploration and be rewarded to a point. But beyond those points, you had to gamble a little, take risks, and pit yourself against hungry PVP types if you wanted to have the real fun (like pirate corp missions, or DED plexes above 6/10s). But now it's all fouled up, they choice is "sure, go scan down a DED 10/10 that hasn't been changed since 2007 and pray the RNG gods are with you" or "go do incursions, and unless you are stupid enough to platy during EUTZ when contests happen, get the same large pay out every time". In a way it's a lot like the old clone upgrade scheme ccp just changed: it looks lie a choice....but it's not really a choice because if you don't make the one true choice, you get punished. CCP has said they want to get rid of false choices in the game, and one place that really needs this is PVE. To me, all you just said is "Since 2008, risk/reward has not been supported by the devs". Problem is, they think they have been.
Or you think they do...
It's funny because while a DEV said incursion might be paying too much, one also said NS was makign enough ISK.
One of them is still working for CCP. |
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
118
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:54:45 -
[523] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:A) This was changed because most people live in HS, and CCP is catering to its largest subscriber base. As they should since they are a business, and businesses exist to generate profits. LOL How many incurion runners that make BILLIONS of isk a week pay ccp $15 a month cash? Id wager over 75% bux plex off the market SOMEONE ELSE paies ccp $20 for and you use that to sub your account. Incursion running dont actually hand ccp cash from their wallets. Take an econ class And ccp makes more money as a result. Don't need an economic class to know 20>15. Grade school math ftw. Point still stands ccp likes hs income high because 75% of their paid subs live and operate there.
Wrong. Ccp received that money the SECOND someone else bought said plex. If it gets destroyed in an ibis in jita, they still have the 20$ some dude paid for it before If it gets converted into Aur, same If some rich incursion rummer plexes the rest of the year with it, they only received the $20 each from the other dude at time of sale.
If you make 20bill a month and just use plexes someone else already gave ccp money for, you aint giving them anything extra. Why is this so hard to grasp? If no ever bought a plex on market, ccp would still have just as much money from when someone gave them 20$ each. Yet now they must let you play the game for free for a year.
Seriosuly google freaking econ101 |
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
118
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 18:57:53 -
[524] - Quote
Google econ opportunity cost.
You are actually LOSING CCP MONEY
If you couldnt plex your account by incursions, youd have to give ccp 15$ per month from your wallet. You dont have to, hense they lose the opportunity of you paying 15$ and must allow you to play their game for free forever cuz you want to make 20bill a month risk free in hisec |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1744
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 19:05:06 -
[525] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Google econ opportunity cost.
You are actually LOSING CCP MONEY
If you couldnt plex your account by incursions, youd have to give ccp 15$ per month from your wallet. You dont have to, hense they lose the opportunity of you paying 15$ and must allow you to play their game for free forever cuz you want to make 20bill a month risk free in hisec
CCP themselves don't count it like that but feel free to. They consider PLEX purchase as deferred income as long as it is not used for sub/aurums/character customisation/transfers/... |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1744
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 19:11:49 -
[526] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote: Why exactly would anyone want to move out to null if they can make more in highsec? By now I'm starting to think the reason as seen by CCP is "because you want to". That's what I talk about when I say 'false choices'. It's like someone saying "hey dude, you can stay here in Beverly Hills, do very little and make a milliion bucks a week, or you can choose to leave here and move to the nearest ghetto slum and maybe make minimum wage flipping burgers at a fast food restaurant, and by the way that restaurant gets robbed at least once a week, so good luck". WTF kind of choice is that lol?
The game is already full of stupid stuff where an alt to make X is the best way to do something. Why are you surprised about it being like that about income? Do you really expect them to fix this?
The group that hold SOV have so many hours sunk into it they won't leave because NS income is too low compared to HS. They will suck it up and create alts. Like for various other things in the game that will also not get changed until it cause something large enough to push them into changing it.
You want it to change, strap yourself in and get ready to rock the boat enough but be warned, CCP does not give you what you want but what it think you need/deserve.
Now go and run incursions with the people that agree with you that it has to be nerfed enough for it to actually cause something bad in the game. Prove it to CCP how bad the thing is. You have all the tools. You already know how to run the sites and according to yourself, you can't lose money while doing it.
What are you waiting for? The change is just a couple of Kundulini away!!! |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
249
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 19:15:55 -
[527] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Its a strategic agenda to control the ISK, Incursions and level 4's are what the people who want to do this use to make ISK, so they want them nerfed so they cannot be threatened...
Even if I were take that at face value entirely, it still doesn't philosophically make sense. There are plenty of places to regroup or rebuild which do not have risk free income. The question then becomes, why would you ever hole up in NPC null or non-FW lowsec when, get this, it doesn't have as much accessible income as HiSec. I would be extraordinarily pleased if income in non-FW low or NPC null was buffed. It's not just sov that matters here - whole entire playstyles are debased due to the income disparity of HiSec/Incursions/L4s.
Anuri Suaraj wrote:I really love this thread.
High sec incursion runners: "Get your hands out of my pocket..."
Low/null sec gankers: "Get rid of incursions so that only we can make bank and also kill a lot of high sec dweebs as they're pushed out into low sec."
And nobody has an agenda, allegedly.
Priceless.
My agenda is to make every space in the game viable and/or able to support its residents versus the expected risks they face. I just find it utterly hilarious that HiSec maintains this monopoly so well. Besides Jenn, no one is really talking up FW income - everyone just casually accepts it or profits off it. Honestly I can't find myself too annoyed at it given the elephant in the room of HiSec income - at least FW supports players enough that they could participate in a non-stop PVP slugfest that FW is supposed to be. Rather, why does HiSec need such a gratuitous income faucet when there is basically no risk there? Why do places like Syndicate have absolutely no good bottom up income sources for small entities, when it is such an incredibly violent region?
I'm tired of HiSec alts. You shouldn't need them, the game shouldn't encourage them. Each area of space should aim to have wealth generation be tied to the relative amount of risk. No one is harking on WHs either; they fight incredibly bloody battles for control of holes, and PvE there can be incredibly risky - making absurd wealth is fine when you are facing risks of the same magnitude. Fozziesov is tied to residents wanting to actually live in the space they own, if they can't, if sov-null can't support sov-null style losses, or isnt the best route to doing so, I can't see it doing well.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
|
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 19:19:57 -
[528] - Quote
I still feel as if people are shouting fire when there is no fire just to simply incite a riot.
On my older account, within a couple months' time of doing a little bit of everything, except null sec, I was able to accumulate enough wealth to purchase a titan BPO. I never did even though my corp was expanding at the time because I knew my corp mates and I knew myself. Too much trouble for the effort. Eventually everyone parted ways, including myself, but before doing so, I purchased the most expensive clothing there was at the time, purchased a dread-naught (just in case if I ever needed it, it still collects dust), pimped out all my favorite ships to multi-billion dollar status, purchased a large POS while maintaining it, purchased almost all the bpos for subcap ships and the modules they typically use, and I basically purchased enough plex to keep my account subbed for a decade.
It has always been easy to make isk in this game. Back when battleships were rare, they were still easy to come by if you knew what you were doing. Doesn't just involve situational awareness. It involves capitalizing on opportunity when you see it and making safe bets. No amount of incentive would have made me move to null sec because at the end of the day, I was playing the markets of this game. Not the pvp aspect. I did pvp, when it was needed, but I never did it just to do it. Shoot, one time I had someone invade one of my missions back was still learning the game. They were stealing from my wrecks to bait me. So I came back in a hurricane and I blew up their destroyer and their pod. My pvp cane was fit with mods in it that when summed up were in the hundred of millions. The would be ganker, now in a medical station impractically far away from me to do anything about what I just did to him was going on and on about how I'm such a carebear and the fourth for sacrificing a battle cruiser to pop their destroyer and pod.
Well, I got curious and started looking up the prices of his implants, ship modules, etc. I may have lost 1/2 a bil to concord through my ship, but they lost (at then current prices) 4+ billion isk in some hardcore implants. His destroyer was only worth millions. When I looked at his kill board, he had all these kills on helpless non-pvp fit ships. He had lost one ship ever. I made him lose his second ship and his pod. Yea, it was overkill, but I'm not going to engage a fight I know I'm bound to lose. The best part about all of this? His alt/friend was way to slow to save him. His alt/friend tried probing me down for the 15 minute timer, but pods warp instantly, so they never caught me.
Null sec would have made all my fun I had in this game impossible because of lurking enemies, fleet doctrines, etc. You name it. I don't believe in "something bigger than me" because nothing is bigger than me. At the end of the day living in null sec must suck unless you're one of the few individuals who can control everything in their alliance. After all, there is precedence for backstabbing by people you should have been able to trust.
Incursions may generate a lot of isk for high sec. I honestly wouldn't know because the only incursions I did were the little baby ones in my tech 3 solo. I didn't like how they were setup and I didn't like the drama and nose browning the incursion community seemed to have. So I simply didn't involve myself with it. I was never a fan of having to depend on others unless they did specifically what I told them. In MMORPGs like this one, people just never listen and or perform to the best of their capabilities. Not always true, but that's a super minority of people versus the grand majority of incompetent players and if you weren't there to form the old boys clubs from the beginning, you sure as hell won't be able to join unless a spot opens up. But people are emotionally driven and will fill the void with incompetent players that emotionally satisfy the group instead of getting someone who is solid.
Instead of nerfing high-sec incursion income outright, which is always a very poor way to balance things, you could have incursions depend on another variable.
For example:
Sansha anomalies could spawn all over new eden at random and are soft capped. If enough Sansha anomalies spawn within a given region it could escalate into a full blow incursion. Obviously the True Sansha rare spawns and escalations from these things should have to have their rates significantly lowered to help maintain the current market values of modules one can obtain. The soft cap on these things popping up should equal up to the maximum amount of high sec incursions that spawn now on any given day.
Now for the kicker. Let's say critical mass is 100 anoms (for simplicity's sake) in a given region. Better is a high range set of numbers. In high sec, you have explorers, mission runners, and anyone else who isn't so lazy to hit alt+p doing them. If the number of anoms never reached critical mass in a given region, obviously there wouldn't be an incursion. This can be exploited by simply not doing the anomalies, but they would pop up randomly throughout all regions at random times. In high sec, there is way too much competition for there to be as many incursions as there are now. Thus the overall isk handed out via incursions would go down substantially while making it a very real possibility for an incursion to happen in regions alliances may own out in null sec by basically mandating that sansha anoms be avoided to escalate the region into an incursion. Null sec should obviously have higher payouts because of the added risk of gankers as well, but the competition in high sec would make an incursion rare. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if dedicated explorers navigate towards regions in where there was a recent high sec incursion because that would imply there was a critical mass of sansha anoms.
Hell, maybe the incursion runners might get together and start deccing people who do the anoms |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10837
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 19:26:26 -
[529] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Its a strategic agenda to control the ISK, Incursions and level 4's are what the people who want to do this use to make ISK, so they want them nerfed so they cannot be threatened... Even if I were take that at face value entirely, it still doesn't philosophically make sense. There are plenty of places to regroup or rebuild which do not have risk free income. The question then becomes, why would you ever hole up in NPC null or non-FW lowsec when, get this, it doesn't have as much accessible income as HiSec. I would be extraordinarily pleased if income in non-FW low or NPC null was buffed. It's not just sov that matters here - whole entire playstyles are debased due to the income disparity of HiSec/Incursions/L4s. Anuri Suaraj wrote:I really love this thread.
High sec incursion runners: "Get your hands out of my pocket..."
Low/null sec gankers: "Get rid of incursions so that only we can make bank and also kill a lot of high sec dweebs as they're pushed out into low sec."
And nobody has an agenda, allegedly.
Priceless. My agenda is to make every space in the game viable and/or able to support its residents versus the expected risks they face. I just find it utterly hilarious that HiSec maintains this monopoly so well. Besides Jenn, no one is really talking up FW income - everyone just casually accepts it or profits off it. Honestly I can't find myself too annoyed at it given the elephant in the room of HiSec income - at least FW supports players enough that they could participate in a non-stop PVP slugfest that FW is supposed to be. Rather, why does HiSec need such a gratuitous income faucet when there is basically no risk there? Why do places like Syndicate have absolutely no good bottom up income sources for small entities, when it is such an incredibly violent region? I'm tired of HiSec alts. You shouldn't need them, the game shouldn't encourage them. Each area of space should aim to have wealth generation be tied to the relative amount of risk. No one is harking on WHs either; they fight incredibly bloody battles for control of holes, and PvE there can be incredibly risky - making absurd wealth is fine when you are facing risks of the same magnitude. Fozziesov is tied to residents wanting to actually live in the space they own, if they can't, if sov-null can't support sov-null style losses, or isnt the best route to doing so, I can't see it doing well.
Well said. My problem with FW has nothing to do with risk ( I lose a couple purifiers per week) but rather that it's a lot of freaking income for using a frigate sized ship you don't care about losing. None of the people in my minmatar militia farming corp willfully do pvp, hell, FARMING is part of its name lol.
But even though the income is lower, and even though I join a fleet every night, I know that incursions as constituted in high sec are wrong. You just shouldn't be able to make that kind of isk in a high sec situation where you personally aren't even concentrating very hard (the FC and the TTT (guy who does the tags) and the logi guys are working, most of the rest of us are F1 monkeying). All you have to do is watch for yellow boxing NPCs and broadcast, and 9 times out of 10 you don't even have to do that because you aren't catching aggro at all.
BTW, anyone otice how the pro-status quo crowd aren't PVErs are incursion runners lol?
|
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
22400
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 19:27:42 -
[530] - Quote
That last line kind of makes no sense...
I wish you a slow, agonising death with screams and tears of pain and horror.
Have everything you posess taken away from you.
Most importantly ... yourself.
Corpses4Drifters
|
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1744
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 19:30:54 -
[531] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
BTW, anyone otice how the pro-status quo crowd aren't PVErs are incursion runners lol?
You heard it here first folks, incursion are not PvE... |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
251
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 19:39:23 -
[532] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:Hell, maybe the incursion runners might get together and start deccing people who do the anoms
Wardecs are a completely useless tool as it is trivial to evade them. It would be interesting to have a way to limit the amount of HS incursions, both how many and the frequency of them, but this solution seems overcomplicated to implement correctly.
A)Remove or significantly delay CONCORD from systems under incursion.
B)Allow players with High Sansha standings to both not be targeted by the rats, and not suffer CONCORD. This would be the best solution possible, as it would put power in the players hands to enforce rules, create entities, etc. It also has potential to get lots of would be high-sec antagonists to venture to Stain for a while to get those standings..which of course creates more avenue for content to grow.
B)Reduce/Increase payouts. WH space already has the hardest and most dangerous PvE, but the best payouts. Just complete the spectrum and make Hi Sec have the safest and easiest PvE, but the worst payouts.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10837
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 19:44:31 -
[533] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
BTW, anyone otice how the pro-status quo crowd aren't PVErs are incursion runners lol?
You heard it here first folks, incursion are not PvE...
You know that's a typo lol.
Quote:Jenn aSide wrote: You just shouldn't be able to make that kind of isk in a high sec situation where you personally aren't even concentrating very hard
Why? Because it's not fair?
Why? Common sense.
If you have two alternatives, one harder and less lucrative, and the other easier and more lucrative, it kind of make syou stupid to pick the 1st one (unless you are in to that kind of whips and leather like BS).
This is a game, a game shouldn't punish you for doing interesting things (like trying to make game-money in space where people are trying to kill you, like an Indiana jones movie) while rewarding you for playing it safe.
|
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 19:46:31 -
[534] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:verbal diarrhea
I can also see this indirectly affecting the prices of modules across all regions because you will have some of the competition doing the anoms because of the added time explorers will have to sacrifice sorting through whatever things they are looking for. It's also true some would just outright avoid doing sansha anoms because of the lowered drop rate of rare modules and spawns.Obviously, there would need to be balance to not deter explorers from doing these anoms. But that would be up to CCP because they're the ones with the data. And considering they buffed them the last time they did anything to incursions, it seems to me they're okay with them. Maybe they'll weak them at some point. Who knows, but generating propaganda for an agenda is what's wrong. A lot of people who cry wolf over balance issues will usually be the first to exploit a weakness in said balance. You know, make your money and shut the doors on anyone else who wanted to get some of the pie.
Regardless, I'll continue to do what I do until I have reason to quit. Which is something no one on any side of the fence should want. After all, less subscribers means less monies for CCP which means less content and half assed features. So tread lightly when it comes to messing with a group of people's play style. My idea will probably be seen as a bad one, but at least it's something that isn't clearly a personal attack on a specific group and my idea does help make the game a tad bit more immersive, except for null sec, but null sec was never really all that immersive. To me at least. |
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
2
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 19:52:06 -
[535] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Hell, maybe the incursion runners might get together and start deccing people who do the anoms Wardecs are a completely useless tool as it is trivial to evade them. It would be interesting to have a way to limit the amount of HS incursions, both how many and the frequency of them, but this solution seems overcomplicated to implement correctly. A)Remove or significantly delay CONCORD from systems under incursion. B)Allow players with High Sansha standings to both not be targeted by the rats, and not suffer CONCORD. This would be the best solution possible, as it would put power in the players hands to enforce rules, create entities, etc. It also has potential to get lots of would be high-sec antagonists to venture to Stain for a while to get those standings..which of course creates more avenue for content to grow. B)Reduce/Increase payouts. WH space already has the hardest and most dangerous PvE, but the best payouts. Just complete the spectrum and make Hi Sec have the safest and easiest PvE, but the worst payouts.
I agree and believe the first option B should be applied to all facets that deal with enemy npcs. If the Serpentis invade jita for a day, players with high standings with Serpentis shouldn't be targeted by them and should be able to assist them. Makes sense from a balance point of view and a lore point of view. After all, people who tend to have high pirate standings have low empire standings thus limiting them from a large portion of the game, temporarily. If concord doesn't shoot the invading npcs, they shouldn't shoot players who have high standings with said faction during the event to encourage pvp. My two cents. |
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 19:56:07 -
[536] - Quote
Forgive me, I thought I had hit the edit button. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
887
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 20:25:49 -
[537] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Its a strategic agenda to control the ISK, Incursions and level 4's are what the people who want to do this use to make ISK, so they want them nerfed so they cannot be threatened... Even if I were take that at face value entirely, it still doesn't philosophically make sense. There are plenty of places to regroup or rebuild which do not have risk free income. The question then becomes, why would you ever hole up in NPC null or non-FW lowsec when, get this, it doesn't have as much accessible income as HiSec. I would be extraordinarily pleased if income in non-FW low or NPC null was buffed. It's not just sov that matters here - whole entire playstyles are debased due to the income disparity of HiSec/Incursions/L4s. Anuri Suaraj wrote:I really love this thread.
High sec incursion runners: "Get your hands out of my pocket..."
Low/null sec gankers: "Get rid of incursions so that only we can make bank and also kill a lot of high sec dweebs as they're pushed out into low sec."
And nobody has an agenda, allegedly.
Priceless. My agenda is to make every space in the game viable and/or able to support its residents versus the expected risks they face. I just find it utterly hilarious that HiSec maintains this monopoly so well. Besides Jenn, no one is really talking up FW income - everyone just casually accepts it or profits off it. Honestly I can't find myself too annoyed at it given the elephant in the room of HiSec income - at least FW supports players enough that they could participate in a non-stop PVP slugfest that FW is supposed to be. Rather, why does HiSec need such a gratuitous income faucet when there is basically no risk there? Why do places like Syndicate have absolutely no good bottom up income sources for small entities, when it is such an incredibly violent region? I'm tired of HiSec alts. You shouldn't need them, the game shouldn't encourage them. Each area of space should aim to have wealth generation be tied to the relative amount of risk. No one is harking on WHs either; they fight incredibly bloody battles for control of holes, and PvE there can be incredibly risky - making absurd wealth is fine when you are facing risks of the same magnitude. Fozziesov is tied to residents wanting to actually live in the space they own, if they can't, if sov-null can't support sov-null style losses, or isnt the best route to doing so, I can't see it doing well.
Of course it does not make sense if you are talking about regrouping, I was talking about the stage before that when the CFC goes out to destabilise their target before the hammer drops, this is the interdiction of the ISK generation of their target. if you get off of your grand soap box and think about the ramifications of this in what is going to happen, people will be spreading out into null from hisec and in small groups that initially test the waters and will be able to develop from that. To close them down will take just one cloaky based on the current mechanics, but of course we will not use the system to make ISK at least for the medium term until things start t sort out, all our ISK will come from level 4's, the hisec markets and incursions.
So waffling on about the retreat to NPC null and such is irrelevant because the systems we will try for are next to hisec and if it gets rolled over just come back when they head off to roll over someone else, rinse and repeat you got it. If enough people do this then it will start to open up the game.
There is nothing wrong with hisec income, it allows people to break into 0.0, and that is why certain people want it nerfed, not because of risk or reward, it is a strategic necessity so they can keep their control on the majority of null and that they can easily tie them down by cutting of the income with single cloaky camper.
There are a lot of people in smaller corps and alliances that are now starting to make their preparations to take a system or two, how to stop them, get rid of the two income sources that cannot be as easily interdicted without real effort. like they can shut down a null sec system. In truth only a tickover amount can be made because most of the people will be defending their system but it enables you to resist and gather resources if you are good at it and in Eve wearing down the enemy is how you win.
This is not about risk / reward, its about strategic control of income, but the thing is that only a limited number of people can run Incursions, the main income is level 4's and that is what is always getting attacked by these people and they never stop going on and on about it, downplaying how much null sec anoms can be run for and quoting figures from blitzing to max effort on level 4's. It gets so wearing and its as tedious as hell.
Ella's Snack bar
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1745
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 20:31:05 -
[538] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
BTW, anyone otice how the pro-status quo crowd aren't PVErs are incursion runners lol?
You heard it here first folks, incursion are not PvE... You know that's a typo lol. Quote:Jenn aSide wrote: You just shouldn't be able to make that kind of isk in a high sec situation where you personally aren't even concentrating very hard
Why? Because it's not fair? Why? Common sense. If you have two alternatives, one harder and less lucrative, and the other easier and more lucrative, it kind of make syou stupid to pick the 1st one (unless you are in to that kind of whips and leather like BS). This is a game, a game shouldn't punish you for doing interesting things (like trying to make game-money in space where people are trying to kill you, like an Indiana jones movie) while rewarding you for playing it safe.
You want to build the game around common sense? |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
463
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 20:31:23 -
[539] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:B)Allow players with High Sansha standings to both not be targeted by the rats, and not suffer CONCORD. This would be the best solution possible, as it would put power in the players hands to enforce rules, create entities, etc. It also has potential to get lots of would be high-sec antagonists to venture to Stain for a while to get those standings..which of course creates more avenue for content to grow.
i think this is just a great idea in general
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1746
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 20:38:09 -
[540] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:B)Allow players with High Sansha standings to both not be targeted by the rats, and not suffer CONCORD. This would be the best solution possible, as it would put power in the players hands to enforce rules, create entities, etc. It also has potential to get lots of would be high-sec antagonists to venture to Stain for a while to get those standings..which of course creates more avenue for content to grow. i think this is just a great idea in general
They would get run just as much as the low sec ones if you remove the CONCORD protection even if it has a standing requirement toward a particular faction. |
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
254
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 21:06:28 -
[541] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:There is nothing wrong with hisec income, it allows people to break into 0.0, and that is why certain people want it nerfed, not because of risk or reward, it is a strategic necessity so they can keep their control on the majority of null and that they can easily tie them down by cutting of the income with single cloaky camper.
Okay, first and foremost, if you cannot deal with one cloaky camper, you may want to reconsider life in null. That is a renter mentality, not a real null enthusiasts one. That it does not force a decision tree is symptomatic - why would I risk my ship here and earn less than I could without risking my ship in HiSec? It becomes a real decision if you could get less income with more security, and more income with less security - hey look, a game where decisions matter. A real null enthusiast will have the tools to either ignore or bait out the camper. I can say from personal experience, cloaky campers are not really a problem if you have a good defence fleet - they will victimize the weakest, not the capable.
Inhabiting null should be more profitable than hi from day one, and only grow with time spent inhabiting and developing it. This is why Fozziesov needs to have some sort of line member income buff - as long as pilots don't have a personal reason to be there beyond just preventing roaming gangs from entosing their structures, no one will want to live there. Why have a duty to protect and guard things when those things in turn do nothing for you beyond what you could have gotten for free in HiSec?
HiSec as a staging point for null should seem patently absurd. It sort of is. Its no more absurd than the present state of planting a flag, then sending alts back to hisec, but absurd nonetheless. Low or NPC null make far more natural places to build up in.
You seem to think people want HiSec Income nerfed (which is in turn, a buff to nullsec income) to keep the little man down. I don't. I honestly think few people do. What people want is Null to be worth something, both so it rewards those who dare, and there's something to keep the content boiling, rather than the present state of most of null being objectively worth less than the average HiSec System.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
254
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 21:11:46 -
[542] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:B)Allow players with High Sansha standings to both not be targeted by the rats, and not suffer CONCORD. This would be the best solution possible, as it would put power in the players hands to enforce rules, create entities, etc. It also has potential to get lots of would be high-sec antagonists to venture to Stain for a while to get those standings..which of course creates more avenue for content to grow. i think this is just a great idea in general They would get run just as much as the low sec ones if you remove the CONCORD protection even if it has a standing requirement toward a particular faction.
And that would mean problem solved.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15754
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 21:33:14 -
[543] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Sadly for you I was around at the time, the Tech agreement was between you the CFC, NCDOT and their allies Evoke and PL, White Noise and Raiden may have had moons at the point before they collapsed, but I was not aware of them being in teh Tech agreement, bu might have been, but WN collapsed before the Titan tracking nerf and Raiden after. The ending of the Tech agreement was really the Tribute war, which was some time after the fall of WN. I guess you were knitting or something else during that period?
Fighting WN as part of GSF.
See, when you lie about things like this it will come back to bite you in arse. I was part of these events and what you are spouting is nothing but rubbish. The vast bulk of the 20,000 supers out there were not built using tech money. We didn't even have enough dreads to form a full fleet back then.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15756
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 21:46:48 -
[544] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: The game is already full of stupid stuff where an alt to make X is the best way to do something. Why are you surprised about it being like that about income? Do you really expect them to fix this?
They are going to have to now that sov is tied to people actually using their space.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12836
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 21:53:34 -
[545] - Quote
So apparently, a few hundred people in highsec can make a full third as much as the entire rest of the game combined...
But some people think that's just fine.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1747
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 21:56:02 -
[546] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: The game is already full of stupid stuff where an alt to make X is the best way to do something. Why are you surprised about it being like that about income? Do you really expect them to fix this?
They are going to have to now that sov is tied to people actually using their space.
They don't have to as long as some people are "tryhard" enough to keep SOV to their name.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So apparently, a few hundred people in highsec can make a full third as much as the entire rest of the game combined... But some people think that's just fine.
Join the club and show them how broken it is. The more people jump on any bandwagon, the higher the chance of CCP nerfing it.
What are you waiting for? You are already in high sec anyway. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15758
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 21:58:29 -
[547] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
They don't have to as long as some people are "tryhard" enough to keep SOV to their name.
Which given the fact that most null space currently abandoned isn't going to happen.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1747
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 22:03:18 -
[548] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
They don't have to as long as some people are "tryhard" enough to keep SOV to their name.
Which given the fact that most null space currently abandoned isn't going to happen.
Just wait for the SOV change. You know at least the "I mined it for free" crowd will give it a shot. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
22446
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 22:20:27 -
[549] - Quote
I'm sorry, but with space in nullsec being abandoned ...
... does that mean I can just go there and plant my [things] and ... then what?
DOES YELLING ANNOY YOU ?
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1750
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 22:28:34 -
[550] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:I'm sorry, but with space in nullsec being abandoned ...
... does that mean I can just go there and plant my [things] and ... then what?
Techically yes as long as you manage to handle the logistic side of moving your thing there and accept it might get burned down just because. |
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Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 22:50:07 -
[551] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So apparently, a few hundred people in highsec can make a full third as much as the entire rest of the game combined... But some people think that's just fine. If it was real life where the money was being generated between people, yea, it would be unfair, but this is a video game where money is literally printed out of thin air via PVE other means of acquiring money are secondary to this one true fact. Unlike loans in the real world where they generate wealth for both parties, if you believe economists, there is no such feature in eve. There also isn't in real life, but everyone and their mother who benefits from such a system would say otherwise.
That's why it's not such a big deal if some individuals in a video game can make so much isk, at least for me. After a certain point it truly becomes worthless on an individual level. |
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 22:57:14 -
[552] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:A) This was changed because most people live in HS, and CCP is catering to its largest subscriber base. As they should since they are a business, and businesses exist to generate profits. LOL How many incurion runners that make BILLIONS of isk a week pay ccp $15 a month cash? Id wager over 75% bux plex off the market SOMEONE ELSE paies ccp $20 for and you use that to sub your account. Incursion running dont actually hand ccp cash from their wallets. Take an econ class
While this is true, if there was no demand for the plexes, CCP wouldn't be making money off the people who purchase them and put them on the market. So the incursion runners and anyone else that makes billions in a week do in fact contribute to CCP's wallet. Job creators don't create jobs. They capitalize on an opportunity no one else sees. In a way, people that pay for plex via isk are working for some other player whose time is too good to do such a menial task. When looked at it from this perspective it's a very mutual benefiting exchange. CCP already got their money because player X purchased it to make isk off of player Y. It's literally player trading confined to account time, and now the NES store. It's a genius idea and I'm glad the game has it. Makes it more exciting for me personally. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
73
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 23:36:46 -
[553] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So apparently, a few hundred people in highsec can make a full third as much as the entire rest of the game combined... But some people think that's just fine. If it was real life where the money was being generated between people, yea, it would be unfair, but this is a video game where money is literally printed out of thin air via PVE. Other means of acquiring money are secondary to this one true fact. The real world is far more complicated than this and people that DO accumulate a stupid amount of wealth never really contribute it back into the economy, unless you count investments in stock, cds, etc. But at the end of the day, that helps a small percentage of people and not the grand majority. Even worse, some of them just let it sit. That's why it's not such a big deal if some individuals in a video game can make so much isk, at least for me. After a certain point it truly becomes worthless on an individual level.
There is a big economic difference between wealth accumulation, and wealth creation. Wealth creation creates some pretty bad effects, if there is not enough destruction of wealth.
Of course, you could also get filthy rich, and then biomass your character and take it with you! |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10842
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 23:37:55 -
[554] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: You want to build the game around common sense?
As much as possible a game should "make sense" and be internally consistent. It once was. If you were a PVE centric player, You start in high sec (like everyone else), you build yourself up, learn the game as best you can, and when you got bored of the missions and wanted more isk, you went outside of the safety net, and while you would incur some losses, if you did it right (like made good friends), you ended up in one of those dangerous places where the good (and lucrative) pve was: In a pirate gang that made isk via piracy and lvl 5s, in npc null where you could do pirate lvl 4s, or in sov null where you could make a 'better than high sec, sometimes MUCH better' living off of belts, wild anomalies and signature (DED and unrated) plexes.
It made sense, you risked more, then learned more, and got more.
Now it's completely F'd up unless your path leads you to a 'big' wormhole group. The experienced players aren't out competing with each other over far flung DED 10/10s, the "1%" of PVE is flying stealth bombers in FW and laughing at a 50 mil loss after days of making above 250 mil an hour, or flying 5 bil incursion bling boats and not having to worry about a bad "RNG" day in null or low sec exploration.
If CCP never thinks it's a problem, it's cool, I have my hooks in several different forms of lucrative PVE. But the current imbalances don't make for the best game play, and being able to make so much isk in safety (or with the ability to do so with ships so cheap you don't mind the loss) denies the game the kind of emergent gameplay opportunities than made eve special.
like the time in 2009 when my friend got tackled in a 10/10, which led to us trying to save him, which led to RA blobbing us, which turned onto a freaky Cap fight on the 10/10s gate and a sub cap fight inside the 10/10, which resulted in the death of a Russian Titan which was a special thing then... and we STILL got the plex loot. |
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.29 23:38:33 -
[555] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So apparently, a few hundred people in highsec can make a full third as much as the entire rest of the game combined... But some people think that's just fine. If it was real life where the money was being generated between people, yea, it would be unfair, but this is a video game where money is literally printed out of thin air via PVE. Other means of acquiring money are secondary to this one true fact. The real world is far more complicated than this and people that DO accumulate a stupid amount of wealth never really contribute it back into the economy, unless you count investments in stock, cds, etc. But at the end of the day, that helps a small percentage of people and not the grand majority. Even worse, some of them just let it sit. That's why it's not such a big deal if some individuals in a video game can make so much isk, at least for me. After a certain point it truly becomes worthless on an individual level. There is a big economic difference between wealth accumulation, and wealth creation. Wealth creation creates some pretty bad effects, if there is not enough destruction of wealth. Of course, you could also get filthy rich, and then biomass your character and take it with you!
Maybe I already did once
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Silwithin
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 00:09:45 -
[556] - Quote
In sites it is not risky, unless you get red-boxed and your logi is not on their game; you just lost billions in a ship fit. I have also seen plenty of bling ships ganked while moving from one incursion area to another. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15764
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 04:30:30 -
[557] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
They don't have to as long as some people are "tryhard" enough to keep SOV to their name.
Which given the fact that most null space currently abandoned isn't going to happen. Just wait for the SOV change. You know at least the "I mined it for free" crowd will give it a shot.
Wont work if people dont move out there and people wont move out there if there is no reward for doing so.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1082
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 05:05:26 -
[558] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Wont work if people dont move out there and people wont move out there if there is no reward for doing so.
I'm pretty sure that is how IDLE got sov at some point, grabbed a few systems that were easy to get to, but "worthless" so no one else was there. As soon as dominion sov hit (I think that was it?) and every system could be used for anom farming we got kicked out. Sounds like they scaled back anom farming a bit, but I haven't really been in null since. And anom farming is the last thing that would make me want to move out to null right now. I'll admit I like being able to do stuff in highsec, but I think most of that is due to my limited and sporadic play time, otherwise I think I'd probably go join a WH corp, or maybe go back to being a pirate. Either way Null just doesn't seem too interesting. I really hope something in fozzie sov changes that, as the whole player run empires was one of the things that really had me interested in Eve in the first place.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Mario Putzo
1318
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 05:16:51 -
[559] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
They don't have to as long as some people are "tryhard" enough to keep SOV to their name.
Which given the fact that most null space currently abandoned isn't going to happen. Just wait for the SOV change. You know at least the "I mined it for free" crowd will give it a shot. Wont work if people dont move out there and people wont move out there if there is no reward for doing so.
Well facts show this is just plain wrong.
NA - Over 10K peak renters PBLRD- 4K peak renters BOT - 5K peak renters X.W.X - 5K peak renters
24K renters over the past 2 years.~6% of the subscribed player base CHOSE to enter into Sov NS, because the barriers were removed for them. These 24K people could have just as easily stayed in HS and got better rewards, but they didn't they chose to enter into NS, for whatever reason.
Ergo the #1 deterrent to NS is not the rewards, but the barriers of sov NS.
But please tell us more about how many pilots won't enter NS because the rewards are "****"
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
888
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 05:59:46 -
[560] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Dracvlad wrote:There is nothing wrong with hisec income, it allows people to break into 0.0, and that is why certain people want it nerfed, not because of risk or reward, it is a strategic necessity so they can keep their control on the majority of null and that they can easily tie them down by cutting of the income with single cloaky camper. Okay, first and foremost, if you cannot deal with one cloaky camper, you may want to reconsider life in null. That is a renter mentality, not a real null enthusiasts one. That it does not force a decision tree is symptomatic - why would I risk my ship here and earn less than I could without risking my ship in HiSec? It becomes a real decision if you could get less income with more security, and more income with less security - hey look, a game where decisions matter. A real null enthusiast will have the tools to either ignore or bait out the camper. I can say from personal experience, cloaky campers are not really a problem if you have a good defence fleet - they will victimize the weakest, not the capable. Inhabiting null should be more profitable than hi from day one, and only grow with time spent inhabiting and developing it. This is why Fozziesov needs to have some sort of line member income buff - as long as pilots don't have a personal reason to be there beyond just preventing roaming gangs from entosing their structures, no one will want to live there. Why have a duty to protect and guard things when those things in turn do nothing for you beyond what you could have gotten for free in HiSec? HiSec as a staging point for null should seem patently absurd. It sort of is. Its no more absurd than the present state of planting a flag, then sending alts back to hisec, but absurd nonetheless. Low or NPC null make far more natural places to build up in. You seem to think people want HiSec Income nerfed (which is in turn, a buff to nullsec income) to keep the little man down. I don't. I honestly think few people do. What people want is Null to be worth something, both so it rewards those who dare, and there's something to keep the content boiling, rather than the present state of most of null being objectively worth less than the average HiSec System.
So you are one of the "you cannot deal with one cloaky camper" types, well talking to you is a utter waste of time, it depends who the cloaky camper is and what they can drop on you, I have dealt with cloaky campers numerous times I also got cloaky camped by one of the elite alliances which is very different to some scrub trying to extort, but people base their response on the single scrub in a SB, that is easy to deal with and I have killed a fair few of those.
So you think it should be hisec - lowsec - BPC null and then sov null, rubbish...
Yes they do, they know that the concept is to get the little man into 0.0 to grab a piece of space to call their own, and they want to block that, at best what they want to do is force people to operate in 0.0 so they can get easy kills aka a cloaky camper, some of us refuse to play that game of being farmed for some ones epeen.
And to say that a null sec system is worth less than an average hisec system is utterly absurd.
Ella's Snack bar
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Lister Vindaloo
5 Tons of Flax Unreachable
45
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Posted - 2015.04.30 05:59:49 -
[561] - Quote
I really like the idea of spreading out time in between hi sec incursions, a random time between 2 and 6 weeks would be nice, it would allow the massive income stream to stay but ensure that those who use it also have to do something else for their cash.
I'm all for modifying them, and now that the drifters are here maybe they could mess with the Sansha a bit, maybe they could pop the mothership early, or even just drive back the Sansha invasion once and for all? |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
888
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 06:07:19 -
[562] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Sadly for you I was around at the time, the Tech agreement was between you the CFC, NCDOT and their allies Evoke and PL, White Noise and Raiden may have had moons at the point before they collapsed, but I was not aware of them being in teh Tech agreement, bu might have been, but WN collapsed before the Titan tracking nerf and Raiden after. The ending of the Tech agreement was really the Tribute war, which was some time after the fall of WN. I guess you were knitting or something else during that period?
Fighting WN as part of GSF. See, when you lie about things like this it will come back to bite you in arse. I was part of these events and what you are spouting is nothing but rubbish. The vast bulk of the 20,000 supers out there were not built using tech money. We didn't even have enough dreads to form a full fleet back then.
You really are trying so hard, 20,000 supers at that point of the game, I think not..., second thing is the Tech imbalance set you guys up so well that you went from having hardly any Supers and Titans to having the most in the game. You can pretend that the Tech imbalance had no impact, but that set you guys up to make that transition.
A full fleet is 250 dreads, well yes...
Ella's Snack bar
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Mario Putzo
1318
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 06:19:10 -
[563] - Quote
Lister Vindaloo wrote:I really like the idea of spreading out time in between hi sec incursions, a random time between 2 and 6 weeks would be nice, it would allow the massive income stream to stay but ensure that those who use it also have to do something else for their cash.
I'm all for modifying them, and now that the drifters are here maybe they could mess with the Sansha a bit, maybe they could pop the mothership early, or even just drive back the Sansha invasion once and for all?
You do realize that CCP just recently reduced incursion respawns from 24-48 to 12-36 hours right. There is no way in hell they are going to change this to 2-6 weeks. You sir have some serious delusions of grandeur.
ISK is just a side benefit of a largely successful GROUP PVE system. CCP is not going to reduce Incursions by any serious volume because of this. They may reduce the timer back to 24/48...but they are and I am 100% confident in stating this, not going to virtually eliminate an entire subculture of players, so you can feel a bit better about earning 80m/hr in your NS Anoms, or LVL4 Missions. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
36546
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 06:34:50 -
[564] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:You do realize that CCP just recently reduced incursion respawns from 24-48 to 12-36 hours right. There is no way in hell they are going to change this to 2-6 weeks. You sir have some serious delusions of grandeur. 2-6 weeks seems a very unlikely stretch, though a couple of relevant quotes from the Incursions devblog for Hyperion:
In relation to the re-spawn, scout and NCN wall adjustments:
Quote: One of the huge benefits of EVE being on this new 6 week release cadence is that, after we release this content in Hyperion, we plan on reviewing the changes again in a release or two. Something that would have been much harder before.
and, in relation to the nullsec adjustments:
Quote:This change will only effect null sec Vangaurd sites for now. Once this goes live we will monitor closely and see if this actually makes a difference in the way we want. If everything goes well we will consider applying the change to other sites as well and possibly low sec. If everything goes horribly wrong we may also revert the change. For now though we are looking forward to seeing how this plays out on TQ come HyperionGÇÖs release.
Based on no changes since Hyperion, the conclusion is probably that CCP are happy with the effect the changes have had.
I find it hard to believe that there has been any change in nullsec incusions, but I don't have any data to support that. If that is the case, then it could also be that CCP haven't looked at the effect of the adjustments yet and changes could come when they do.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Anuri Suaraj
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 06:35:35 -
[565] - Quote
As a new player I have to say that CCP's intentions for this game are unclear for me.
I live in high sec but I spend most of my time in null sec and wormhole space.
I've made most of my money by jumping into w-space/null, finding unguarded data/relic sites with my T1 frig, and then backtracking to high sec to sell the loot.
And I really wouldn't call that type of ISK-earning ultra risky or super difficult. Basically, if you have a proto cloak and know how to D-scan and bookmark, the chance of you getting killed is extremely low.
I haven't lost a single ship thus far, just by being careful and by applying some garden variety common sense.
I have been playing for less than a month and have already accumulated almost 400 million ISK (I'm counting the value of my ships here as well).
And now that I have an Astero with covops, I can do even better.
In any case, I estimate that I will be able to start Plexing my account within weeks, which means that my original payment of 30 bucks and change is likely to be the last money I ever hand to CCP, unless I decide to buy some premium currency or buy some other stuff from the store.
So honestly, I think that rewards are too generous in general and not just in particular areas of Eden.
If it's true that you can make hundreds of millions running incursions in high sec than I would agree that that's too much.
But I would also disagree with forcing players to do a certain thing. I really don't think that the point of this game is for everyone to eventually end up in null sec and do fleet warfare.
The game should let you do whatever the frak you want.
And I disagree that only risk should dictate the rewards. Brains, effort and dedication should count for something too. |
Remiel Pollard
Against All Odds. Absolute Defiance
6577
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 07:26:37 -
[566] - Quote
Anuri Suaraj wrote:
I haven't lost a single ship thus far, just by being careful and by applying some garden variety common sense.
So you've been mitigating the risk and doing well. That's good, that means you're doing it right and putting the effort in, it doesn't mean the risk isn't there. Albeit, I believe exploration needs a substantial boost to it's risk factor, but that's a moot point for the moment. You just answered your own question by describing exactly how players create their own balance and earn their own rewards.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Lucy Lopez
Low Frequency
11
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 07:33:02 -
[567] - Quote
Now That's What I Call Successful! |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
934
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 07:40:49 -
[568] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:You do realize that CCP just recently reduced incursion respawns from 24-48 to 12-36 hours right. There is no way in hell they are going to change this to 2-6 weeks. You sir have some serious delusions of grandeur. 2-6 weeks seems a very unlikely stretch, though a couple of relevant quotes from the Incursions devblog for Hyperion: In relation to the re-spawn, scout and NCN wall adjustments: Quote: One of the huge benefits of EVE being on this new 6 week release cadence is that, after we release this content in Hyperion, we plan on reviewing the changes again in a release or two. Something that would have been much harder before. and, in relation to the nullsec adjustments: Quote:This change will only effect null sec Vangaurd sites for now. Once this goes live we will monitor closely and see if this actually makes a difference in the way we want. If everything goes well we will consider applying the change to other sites as well and possibly low sec. If everything goes horribly wrong we may also revert the change. For now though we are looking forward to seeing how this plays out on TQ come HyperionGÇÖs release. Based on no changes since Hyperion, the conclusion is probably that CCP are happy with the effect the changes have had. I find it hard to believe that there has been any change in nullsec incusions, but I don't have any data to support that. If that is the case, then it could also be that CCP haven't looked at the effect of the adjustments yet and changes could come when they do. If you read the CSM minutes, the increase in spawn time occurred only because a certain CSM member convinced CCP that a 24 hour spawn time was disadvantaging certain time zones. Perhaps a more thoughtful CSM should have suggested 18 hours or 36 hours as a more appropriate way to stagger the spawn times throughout the day, but what it shows is that you shouldn't let anyone tell you that voting for a CSM member to buff your personal playstyle at the expense of the greater game isn't a useful strategy.
If you read further back in the minutes you can see that CCP was genuinely concerned at the sharp drop off in numbers when they first nerfed incursion hard back in 2012 so they reversed most of those changes. I am sure they are a little gun shy now at messing with incursion, but they really have a tough balancing act if they want CCP Seagull's vision of a player-driven game, or FozzieSov to work. There has to be a reason for people, especially the "Professional" types who are comfortable at going anywhere, but who are currently farming their ISK from the ultra-safe highsec incursions, to go elsewhere. Right now there isn't a reason for the player who is making their choices primarily on where the ISK is to do anything other than highsec incursions.
CCP Quant made it clear they know exactly how players are using their multiple characters and how many nullsec/wormhole players are farming highsec incursions. CCP will act if those players don't move back into this new space and tone back incursions income, or they won't and we will continue the slide into general stagnation and boredom. Or perhaps they will pull a rabbit out of the hat and do something crazy like drop this new AI into incursion rats and completely shake things up by making incursions risky again.
In any case it will be interesting to watch what happens next because this game is being shaken up, and incursions are not lkely to survive in their current form.
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Anuri Suaraj
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 09:27:55 -
[569] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Anuri Suaraj wrote:
I haven't lost a single ship thus far, just by being careful and by applying some garden variety common sense.
So you've been mitigating the risk and doing well. That's good, that means you're doing it right and putting the effort in, it doesn't mean the risk isn't there. Albeit, I believe exploration needs a substantial boost to it's risk factor, but that's a moot point for the moment. You just answered your own question by describing exactly how players create their own balance and earn their own rewards.
But what am I risking exactly?
A cheap T1 frigate that's insured anyway? The cheap implants I got from PvE? My only potential loss is around 1 mill and change for equipment, and my potential gain is 150 mil if I fill up my cargo hold.
People talk about risk in this game as if it's something that's easily quantifiable. It isn't.
The only person I saw get killed in EVE was an Orca dweeb in high sec that wasn't watching local. Nuff said.
I think risk in this game depends more on the player's individual usage of brain than on location.
And even though I'm know actually risking something for the first time (Astero exploration fit is around 80 mil), I also feel much safer with the covops cloak which eliminates even more risk.
Honestly, I think it's stupid that they allow players to access everything from everywhere.
Like the fact that you can access w-space from high sec via worms.
If high sec wormholes would lead only to low/null sec, and if low/null sec worms would in turn lead to w-space, than I would call that the logical progression of things and a player would have to invest a lot of time to get to the "final frontier" so to speak.
As for high sec incursions, if there is CONCORD present than that's just stupid as heck.
Forget the economics, it's just silly.
CONCORD is all like: "Yeah, we'll protect players from potential gankers whilst ignoring the freaking massive incursion into the system committed by hordes of evil pirates."
Because CONCORD- To (selectively) protect and serve. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15768
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 13:31:24 -
[570] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Well facts show this is just plain wrong.
NA - ~10K peak renters PBLRD- ~4K peak renters BOT - ~5K peak renters X.W.X - ~5K peak renters
~24K renters over the past 2 years CHOSE to enter into Sov NS, because the barriers were removed for them. These 24K people could have just as easily stayed in HS and got better rewards, but they didn't they chose to enter into NS, for whatever reason.
And all of them idiots.
We have scammed literally tens of thousands with our recruitment over the last few years, so using your logic giving me 500 mil to join bat country and all your ships to transport out to us is a great idea.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15768
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 13:34:10 -
[571] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: You really are trying so hard, 20,000 supers at that point of the game, I think not...,
I didnt say that, you cant even quote me right.
Dracvlad wrote: second thing is the Tech imbalance set you guys up so well that you went from having hardly any Supers and Titans to having the most in the game.
We overtook our enemies supercap advantage two years after tech was nerfed.
Dracvlad wrote: You can pretend that the Tech imbalance had no impact, but that set you guys up to make that transition.
It didn't have an impact on our super numbers because it wasn't spent on them.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Mario Putzo
1322
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 13:59:38 -
[572] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Well facts show this is just plain wrong.
NA - ~10K peak renters PBLRD- ~4K peak renters BOT - ~5K peak renters X.W.X - ~5K peak renters
~24K renters over the past 2 years CHOSE to enter into Sov NS, because the barriers were removed for them. These 24K people could have just as easily stayed in HS and got better rewards, but they didn't they chose to enter into NS, for whatever reason.
And all of them idiots. Seems like a solid rebuttal.
"No one is going to go to NS because the rewards suck"
-What about these 24K people-
"Oh those ones are just idiots"
So which is it, are people going to enter null when barriers of entry change or no? Or will only more idiots enter null? Seems to be quite a lot of idiots there already if thats the case...or maybe, folks go to null for reasons other than isk/hr?
Whats your opinion on the other ~20K folks who have entered into NS in the last couple years, the ones who didn't pay to live in someones castle? Are they idiots too? Or the ones who more recently join the likes of Pandemic Horde, and Karmafleet, are they also idiots? |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
466
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:17:12 -
[573] - Quote
it amazes my how you fight the incursion corner here by enforcing that incursions are risky enough and do not need changed in highsec then on the other hand you put a F&I thread up suggesting that security should be disrupted in incursion zones to encourage pvp by turning off gate and station guns along with concord.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1758
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:19:10 -
[574] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Well facts show this is just plain wrong.
NA - ~10K peak renters PBLRD- ~4K peak renters BOT - ~5K peak renters X.W.X - ~5K peak renters
~24K renters over the past 2 years CHOSE to enter into Sov NS, because the barriers were removed for them. These 24K people could have just as easily stayed in HS and got better rewards, but they didn't they chose to enter into NS, for whatever reason.
And all of them idiots. We have scammed literally tens of thousands with our recruitment over the last few years, so using your logic giving me 500 mil to join bat country and all your ships to transport out to us is a great idea.
Them being idiot is completely irrelevant. The important things is they are there and might return once the barrier change. CCP won't give a rat ass if some player decide to not go in SOV null because the income is bad as long as there are enough people who does. Who use that space is irrelevant as long as some one is using it even if they are economically challenged.
The real fun part will be the first few weeks where people will claim the were "right" and that new peopel are indeed trying to get systems. This will be the initial surge which is useless as a data point. Fozzie sov will live or die over time and that is something we can't know right now. Maybe those you call stupid will wise up, maybe they will get burned down too often and give up or maybe they will hold there anyway because they like it like that. |
Mario Putzo
1322
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:27:35 -
[575] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:it amazes my how you fight the incursion corner here by enforcing that incursions are risky enough and do not need changed in highsec then on the other hand you put a F&I thread up suggesting that security should be disrupted in incursion zones to encourage pvp by turning off gate and station guns along with concord.
Im sorry, when did I say Incursions were risky enough? I think I have said numerous times that risk/reward is not, and never has been a balancing metric. I posted that thread in F+I so it would create a "thunderdome" type area in HS for those that wish to PVP. I never directed it as an anti-incursion thing, it was the posters following me that created that dialogue.
Id like to see Sansha Incursions actually have a REAL impact on the space they occur in, not some marginally ineffective changes to isk earned, or damage done. I said the same in this very thread several times that CONCORD and system security in general should be removed because it doesn't mesh with the idea that a Pirate Faction essentially controls a group of systems within HS space.
In regards to my purpose in this thread, I am keeping folks like Baltec1 honest in his intentions. There is no need to reduce isk/hr, there is no need to increase associated risk while running incursions. Both of these aspects are completely fine and I will argue that point for as long as I feel necessary.
If that makes Incursions a bit more risky to get to, and move between, than that is the rub...I am sure the Incursion community will find ways to overcome that barrier and still be capable of earning their 200m/hr running incursions. It will also give HS folks a place to brawl, without needing to resort to Wardecs, and Ganking. |
Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution The Initiative.
430
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:36:33 -
[576] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: So to prove that point they will go destroy all the IHUB's in Provi, the one area where null sec actually works
Ha ha, what? Are we talking about the same Provi? The nightmarishly convoluted, pants on head rules enforced solely by CVA's whiny attempts at social pressure? Provi, and it's hand wringing, limp wristed proponents, is one of the game's biggest jokes.
Show me on the dolly where CVA touched you, internet tough guy.
Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15769
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:42:28 -
[577] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Whats your opinion on the other ~20K folks who have entered into NS in the last couple years, the ones who didn't pay to live in someones castle? Are they idiots too? Or the ones who more recently join the likes of Pandemic Horde, and Karmafleet, are they also idiots?
They don't make their isk in null.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
90
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:42:31 -
[578] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Dracvlad wrote: So to prove that point they will go destroy all the IHUB's in Provi, the one area where null sec actually works
Ha ha, what? Are we talking about the same Provi? The nightmarishly convoluted, pants on head rules enforced solely by CVA's whiny attempts at social pressure? Provi, and it's hand wringing, limp wristed proponents, is one of the game's biggest jokes. Show me on the dolly where CVA touched you, internet tough guy.
Yeah I usually agree with Kaarous but this is just... no lol.
The weak may perish, that is the law of New Eden, but CVA have hardly been box-ticking taskmasters or crying babies or "limp-wristed" (Really? REALLY?) in any time Ive had contact with them in the last few years. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
22575
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:45:38 -
[579] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Well facts show this is just plain wrong.
NA - ~10K peak renters PBLRD- ~4K peak renters BOT - ~5K peak renters X.W.X - ~5K peak renters
~24K renters over the past 2 years CHOSE to enter into Sov NS, because the barriers were removed for them. These 24K people could have just as easily stayed in HS and got better rewards, but they didn't they chose to enter into NS, for whatever reason.
And all of them idiots. Seems like a solid rebuttal. "No one is going to go to NS because the rewards suck" -What about these 24K people- "Oh those ones are just idiots" So which is it, are people going to enter null when barriers of entry change or no? Or will only more idiots enter null? Seems to be quite a lot of idiots there already if thats the case...or maybe, folks go to null for reasons other than isk/hr? Whats your opinion on the other ~20K folks who have entered into NS in the last couple years, the ones who didn't pay to live in someones castle? Are they idiots too? Or the ones who more recently join the likes of Pandemic Horde, and Karmafleet, are they also idiots? Funny how you compare apples, oranges and bananas. You seem angry, because you just can'g manage to get anyone to tell you that you're right.
Yeah it really seems like that.
Renters were idiots. And not only that, were many of them carebears. How I know? From every single whine about afk cloaking ... ... and me being smart enough to read up about how it works.
Renters were carefully chosen. The last thing any alliance wants ... ... is to invite the enemy right into it's territory.
Carebears were the easy and reliable way. Idiots who do nothing else but farming pixel money.
Horde, Karma etc are there to get them into Null from the start. That's not comparable to players who started in highsec. It's not comparable to anything ... but BNI.
These people might ha e a chance not to become idiots ... ... and those who already are will drop out anyways.
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Mario Putzo
1322
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:46:51 -
[580] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Whats your opinion on the other ~20K folks who have entered into NS in the last couple years, the ones who didn't pay to live in someones castle? Are they idiots too? Or the ones who more recently join the likes of Pandemic Horde, and Karmafleet, are they also idiots?
They don't make their isk in null.
source please. |
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SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
1041
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:46:54 -
[581] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Yea but you understand what Im saying right?
"Bloobloobloo, other people are getting stuff and I. DON'T. LIKE IT!"
Bout sum it up?
"Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15771
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:48:57 -
[582] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Whats your opinion on the other ~20K folks who have entered into NS in the last couple years, the ones who didn't pay to live in someones castle? Are they idiots too? Or the ones who more recently join the likes of Pandemic Horde, and Karmafleet, are they also idiots?
They don't make their isk in null. source please.
GSF wiki and forum guides on how to make isk.
Also the fact that most of nullsec is empty and unused.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Mario Putzo
1322
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:49:33 -
[583] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Well facts show this is just plain wrong.
NA - ~10K peak renters PBLRD- ~4K peak renters BOT - ~5K peak renters X.W.X - ~5K peak renters
~24K renters over the past 2 years CHOSE to enter into Sov NS, because the barriers were removed for them. These 24K people could have just as easily stayed in HS and got better rewards, but they didn't they chose to enter into NS, for whatever reason.
And all of them idiots. Seems like a solid rebuttal. "No one is going to go to NS because the rewards suck" -What about these 24K people- "Oh those ones are just idiots" So which is it, are people going to enter null when barriers of entry change or no? Or will only more idiots enter null? Seems to be quite a lot of idiots there already if thats the case...or maybe, folks go to null for reasons other than isk/hr? Whats your opinion on the other ~20K folks who have entered into NS in the last couple years, the ones who didn't pay to live in someones castle? Are they idiots too? Or the ones who more recently join the likes of Pandemic Horde, and Karmafleet, are they also idiots? Funny how you compare apples, oranges and bananas. You seem angry, because you just can'g manage to get anyone to tell you that you're right. Yeah it really seems like that. Renters were idiots. And not only that, were many of them carebears. How I know? From every single whine about afk cloaking ... ... and me being smart enough to read up about how it works. Renters were carefully chosen. The last thing any alliance wants ... ... is to invite the enemy right into it's territory. Carebears were the easy and reliable way. Idiots who do nothing else but farming pixel money. Horde, Karma etc are there to get them into Null from the start. That's not comparable to players who started in highsec. It's not comparable to anything ... but BNI. These people might ha e a chance not to become idiots ... ... and those who already are will drop out anyways.
Whats your point? Still folks entering into NS despite the "lack of rewards" for doing so. Obviously there is reason for these people to go there, and they do. Carebear, Leet PVPer, Idiot, or Genius, all irrelevant descriptions of bodies moving to 0.0. Which some folks claim is not a thing, yet clearly is a thing.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1758
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:50:22 -
[584] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Whats your opinion on the other ~20K folks who have entered into NS in the last couple years, the ones who didn't pay to live in someones castle? Are they idiots too? Or the ones who more recently join the likes of Pandemic Horde, and Karmafleet, are they also idiots?
They don't make their isk in null.
Nodody cares where they make their ISK as long as they are willing to burn it on keeping some systems to their name. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15771
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:51:40 -
[585] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Nodody cares where they make their ISK as long as they are willing to burn it on keeping some systems to their name.
If they dont live in null sov then fozziesov wont work. It needs people to live in sov space so yes, it does matter where they make their isk.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1758
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:54:22 -
[586] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Nodody cares where they make their ISK as long as they are willing to burn it on keeping some systems to their name.
If they dont live in null sov then fozziesov wont work. It needs people to live in sov space so yes, it does matter where they make their isk.
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it? |
Mario Putzo
1322
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:55:12 -
[587] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Whats your opinion on the other ~20K folks who have entered into NS in the last couple years, the ones who didn't pay to live in someones castle? Are they idiots too? Or the ones who more recently join the likes of Pandemic Horde, and Karmafleet, are they also idiots?
They don't make their isk in null. source please. GSF wiki and forum guides on how to make isk. Also the fact that most of nullsec is empty and unused.
Not looking for an isk making guide, im asking for this source that shows BNI and others make their ISK outside of NS. You do have a source for that right? Otherwise, folks might think you are talking out your ass. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15771
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:57:16 -
[588] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?
Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack.
If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15771
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 14:58:05 -
[589] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Not looking for an isk making guide, im asking for this source that shows BNI and others make their ISK outside of NS. You do have a source for that right? Otherwise, folks might think you are talking out your ass.
The fact that null sov is mostly empty and unused.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1758
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 15:02:58 -
[590] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?
Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack. If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov.
You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit?
Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game? |
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Mario Putzo
1323
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 15:07:37 -
[591] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Not looking for an isk making guide, im asking for this source that shows BNI and others make their ISK outside of NS. You do have a source for that right? Otherwise, folks might think you are talking out your ass.
The fact that null sov is mostly empty and unused.
Which is 100% an issue with how NS currently works, its numerous barriers of entry, and the fact up until recently anyone trying to enter into NS (outside of renting) would be met with a Blob of ****. Case in point, BL. takes QCAB CFC responds by hellcamping an empty Venal station for 2 weeks. Super engaging stuff. Why live there, when you can live in HS and day trip to LS or NS to PVP.
NS is empty because Coalition gameplay has made it a super **** experience, and greatly limits the infusion of new players.
Granted that mold has been broken some in recent years, Rental Empires, Phoebe changes, more and more people now entering into NS than were previously.
But they are idiots right and don't count? |
Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution The Initiative.
432
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 15:17:01 -
[592] - Quote
maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
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Mario Putzo
1326
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 15:21:31 -
[593] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Because it is easier to whine about what others have, instead of lobbying for what you have. In order to do so guys like Baltec1 would actually need to come up with ideas, instead of reading the GSF Wiki and coming to the conclusion there is nothing he can do. (some do, such as the folks who posted suggestions for improving NS production and mining both of which turned into some very nice changes for the NS Industry folks) |
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
91
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 15:25:04 -
[594] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Not looking for an isk making guide, im asking for this source that shows BNI and others make their ISK outside of NS. You do have a source for that right? Otherwise, folks might think you are talking out your ass.
The fact that null sov is mostly empty and unused. Which is 100% an issue with how NS currently works, its numerous barriers of entry, and the fact up until recently anyone trying to enter into NS (outside of renting) would be met with a Blob of ****. Case in point, BL. takes QCAB CFC responds by hellcamping an empty Venal station for 2 weeks. Super engaging stuff. Why live there, when you can live in HS and day trip to LS or NS to PVP. NS is empty because Coalition gameplay has made it a super **** experience, and greatly limits the infusion of new players. Granted that mold has been broken some in recent years, Rental Empires, Phoebe changes, more and more people now entering into NS than were previously. But they are idiots right and don't count?
Dont worry, with the impending death of Provi, the last vestiges of accessible Null will finally be stamped out, beyond day tripping of course.
Once this is complete, I hope that CCP will open up HS to be invaded properly.
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
468
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 15:27:02 -
[595] - Quote
well buffing nullsec would just mean you would have to also buff lowsec etc and it would be much more work to buff the whole of nullsec so it balances better with 1 activity in highsec which is overpaid, simply increasing risk to incursions to warrant the isk made would be sufficient enough (such as marios idea in f&i)
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15771
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:21:33 -
[596] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?
Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack. If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov. You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit? Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game?
We just burned delve again for no other reason than it was there.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1760
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:23:44 -
[597] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?
Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack. If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov. You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit? Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game? We just burned delve again for no other reason than it was there.
Will you keep burning it every few weeks to be sure to "teach" idiots how little that space is worth? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15771
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:30:54 -
[598] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15771
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:36:50 -
[599] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?
Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack. If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov. You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit? Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game? We just burned delve again for no other reason than it was there. Will you keep burning it every few weeks to be sure to "teach" idiots how little that space is worth?
We have put it to the torch 8 times now. Do you honestly think we wont in the future? It will be easier than ever before if people are not living in their space. So again, yes it will matter where your line members are making their isk.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
888
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:37:31 -
[600] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them.
They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon...
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Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution The Initiative.
432
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:41:56 -
[601] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them. They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon...
Missions in sov-null is a terrible idea
Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
888
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:45:09 -
[602] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them. They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon... Missions in sov-null is a terrible idea
But that is what they will be getting, see G. Administration Hubs in http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/ and what he fails to understand is that the rat bounties will be so much higher as will the LP's.
Ella's Snack bar
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Mario Putzo
1328
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:46:11 -
[603] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
No it does not as the system will hold even if all usage index are at 0 until someone deems it worth attacking and then, when it is lost by side A, well how can you say it's worthless when side B put in the ISK and effort into conquering it?
Go look up the mechanics. Space will be a pushover if the indexes are at 0, you will have no time to react to an attack. If you want to hold space you must actively live in it. You cannot live in empire space and hold sov come fozziesov. You can only lose it of someone think it's worth the effort to take over. Are you going to burn the whole universe every few weeks because you can? If not, then who will burn all those "absentee" owners over and over again until they quit? Also, they could make their ISK in null even if it was not the best ISK/hours in the game. People still run lvl 3, anoms, exploration, LVL 4 and other things even if it's not on par with WH PvE or HQ sites chain running. Who's to say some people won't find it to be at elast enough to start grinding their index even if it's not the best isk/hours in the game? We just burned delve again for no other reason than it was there.
I thought it was because you were ~twisting the knife~ and ~stepping on your enemies throat~, now its just ~because it was there~. Hard to keep up with that CFC sorry, Imperium, spin cycle. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10848
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:48:47 -
[604] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them. They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon... Missions in sov-null is a terrible idea But that is what they will be getting, see G. Administration Hubs in http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/ and what he fails to understand is that the rat bounties will be so much higher as will the LP's.
They've said nothing of the sort, read the actual thread about the specific structures on F&I, they haven't finalized anything.
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Mario Putzo
1329
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:52:57 -
[605] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: They've said nothing of the sort, read the actual thread about the specific structures on F&I, they haven't finalized anything.
Which means there is plenty of time, and a place for nullbears to offer their suggestion on how to improve their income streams. I would wager however you will see NPC Agents for "hire" in Sov NS space. It is really one of the only ways to make non-trusec more lucrative, without reworking the entire sec based structure in NS. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2284
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:55:37 -
[606] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
That won't do anything. Making nullsec pay out more won't make people grind for isk in highsec less. Similarly nerfing payouts in highsec won't reduce the draw of highsec pve content unless the nerfs are incredibly severe.
It's not about the specific balance of payouts, it's about the danger involved. In highsec there is virtually zero threat to incursion runners from other players, the only danger comes from NPCs that despite being fairly powerful by NPC standards are dumb, predictable and only present in specific places. In low or nullsec any random passers-by can drop on your fleet and shoot you as you're forming up.
You can't overcome that gigantic rift in levels of danger just by adjusting the money.
You have to do something to adjust the level of safety and carebears absolutely lose their **** when you say that. It doesn't help that most suggestions of that nature are pretty dumb ideas about removing concord in sites. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15771
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 16:56:28 -
[607] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them. They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon...
Where is this proof? So far the only evidence we have is that they make twice as much isk per pilot as activities in more hostile space.
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Mario Putzo
1330
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 17:18:23 -
[608] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them. They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon... Where is this proof? So far the only evidence we have is that they make twice as much isk per pilot as activities in more hostile space.
I suggest you go post in this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=414192&find=unread where you can offer suggestions and enter into discussion to make these ideas CCP proposed (in the OP) a reality, and scaled in a way that you think would be most fair and balanced for the NS groups that own/operate them. |
Anuri Suaraj
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 19:02:57 -
[609] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Not looking for an isk making guide, im asking for this source that shows BNI and others make their ISK outside of NS. You do have a source for that right? Otherwise, folks might think you are talking out your ass.
The fact that null sov is mostly empty and unused. Which is 100% an issue with how NS currently works, its numerous barriers of entry, and the fact up until recently anyone trying to enter into NS (outside of renting) would be met with a Blob of ****. Case in point, BL. takes QCAB CFC responds by hellcamping an empty Venal station for 2 weeks. Super engaging stuff. Why live there, when you can live in HS and day trip to LS or NS to PVP. NS is empty because Coalition gameplay has made it a super **** experience, and greatly limits the infusion of new players. Granted that mold has been broken some in recent years, Rental Empires, Phoebe changes, more and more people now entering into NS than were previously. But they are idiots right and don't count?
I actually kind of have to agree with this.
One of the reasons why I prefer w-space to null because it is safer to access. Wormholes, even static ones, change position which makes camping or blobing difficult.
In null however, there are systems that are just bubbled to sh*t and utterly messed up with drag blobs and gangs of Legions and Lokis camping gates.
I think CCP needs to introduce more wormholes into null for three-dimensional access rather than solely through those ever predictable gates.
Either that or make gates more like catapults instead of passageways, meaning you get launched into some random position in the system and not just a few kilometers from the system gate.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12853
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 20:25:07 -
[610] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Inflation is bad. Nullsec income does need redone, but just a net buff to what's already there is not appropriate.
[edit: Oh, and because income is relative, adjusting the one massively overpowered thing is a better solution by far than buffing all the others. The nail that stands up should get pounded down.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
259
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 21:00:39 -
[611] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
That won't do anything. Making nullsec pay out more won't make people grind for isk in highsec less. Similarly nerfing payouts in highsec won't reduce the draw of highsec pve content unless the nerfs are incredibly severe. It's not about the specific balance of payouts, it's about the danger involved. In highsec there is virtually zero threat to incursion runners from other players, the only danger comes from NPCs that despite being fairly powerful by NPC standards are dumb, predictable and only present in specific places. In low or nullsec any random passers-by can drop on your fleet and shoot you as you're forming up. You can't overcome that gigantic rift in levels of danger just by adjusting the money. You have to do something to adjust the level of safety and carebears absolutely lose their **** when you say that. It doesn't help that most suggestions of that nature are pretty dumb ideas about removing concord in sites.
Maybe to some people, yes, but not to everyone. I'd be happy regularly losing ships and creating content (i.e. the actual lifeblood of the game) while earning income if the rewards were structured such that the net average income per hour after ship loss was greater than the Hi Sec equivalent. Granted, it would help if the gap between optimum fits for PvE and PvP were not so disparate, but that is unlikely to be solved any time soon. Now, arguably this may already be true for FW or WH space, but that still doesn't actually promote local activity in sov and npc null, which is what needs to be addressed here if the new sov is to actually attract and maintain a vigilant population.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
889
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 21:23:40 -
[612] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:Dracvlad wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Last time they tried this it almost broght down the entire economy. Nerfing the one or two overpowered things is much better than buffing everything else around them.
They have been proved not to be over-powered, and in any case when the new structures come you will get mission agents, VFK the new Osmon... Missions in sov-null is a terrible idea But that is what they will be getting, see G. Administration Hubs in http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-into-the-structure/ and what he fails to understand is that the rat bounties will be so much higher as will the LP's. They've said nothing of the sort, read the actual thread about the specific structures on F&I, they haven't finalized anything.
Spining like mad I see...
Ella's Snack bar
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
36551
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 21:29:47 -
[613] - Quote
It's not Jenn who is spining(?) here.
The devblog and the thread in F&I are fairly clear. It is way to early to be quoting anything as something that will be delivered.
Direct quote from the devblog:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Before we move forward, we would like to make it clear the changes listed below are ideas and highly theoretical. Those are not set in stone or fixed, we are telling our plans to you, our players, months in advance to initiate feedback and spark interest. Also please remember that concept art is just that, concept.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
889
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 21:41:48 -
[614] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:It's not Jenn who is spining(?) here. The devblog and the thread in F&I are fairly clear. It is way to early to be quoting anything as something that will be delivered. Direct quote from the devblog: CCP Ytterbium wrote:Before we move forward, we would like to make it clear the changes listed below are ideas and highly theoretical. Those are not set in stone or fixed, we are telling our plans to you, our players, months in advance to initiate feedback and spark interest. Also please remember that concept art is just that, concept.
Of course you are spinning, this is what you people are playing for, when you moan that the best null sec system can support 10 people at most. This is what you people have been asking for in terms of making it worthwhile to be in 0.0 and if you can get hisec missions reduced to level 3's and Incursions removed then you win even more. Of course its not set in stone, but they have it in mind don't they. Talk about wanting the cake and eating it...
Ella's Snack bar
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
36551
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 21:45:33 -
[615] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Of course you are spinning, this is what you people are playing for, when you moan that the best null sec system can support 10 people at most. This is what you people have been asking for in terms of making it worthwhile to be in 0.0 and if you can get hisec missions reduced to level 3's and Incursions removed then you win even more. Of course its not set in stone, but they have it in mind don't they. Talk about wanting the cake and eating it... Show me where I have moaned about anything of the sort?
No spin, just a direct quote.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
686
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 21:56:26 -
[616] - Quote
Null sec never gets tired of picking on high sec. The payouts are already better in lower sec incursions for one thing.. but lets just look at other high sec activities, There is no other activity in high sec that requires 40 or so pilots to complete. It is the single most dangerous high sec PVE activity there is.. and it requires movement of a great deal of expensively fitted ships through many jumps to get to the incursions as they pop up. Ganking on incursions ships happens regularly in high sec. Ship loss in incursions happens regularly in incursions. in fact, loss happens more often than it does in lower sec. ...likely because the pilots are, in many cases, less skilled than their lower sec counter parts. I'm sorry but your nerf herding idea is a loser. - 1
-á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
259
|
Posted - 2015.04.30 23:56:37 -
[617] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:The payouts are already better in lower sec incursions for one thing.
Yes, but this is largely countered by both the safety for one, and perhaps even more importantly, the availability and logistical ease. You can almost always get to an incursion in High, and there will almost always be one up - it is dependable, available income. Null Incursions, when they are even run, have to be in the right spot, and don't last that long due to any sane alliance wanting them down so their systems aren't cyno jammed. The moment the mothership is spotted, it is usually run at first convenience. It is not unusual for incursions to last less than a day when they hit a populated sov area. Hi Sec has a bigger pool of incursions, and the time to farm them for the full week. Imagine if you could only run incursions in say, Kor-Azor, and then only for a day...oh and during that day, you light up the constellation so every hot-dropper in the tri-region area starts hunting.
Also, comparing Hi-Sec incursions to Null ones still doesn't do too much to the fact that the available, dependable income Hi-Sec incursions grant Hi-Sec makes life in elsewhere comparatively unrewarding. We could discuss the merits of Hi/Low/Null incursions versus each other, but its a different topic entirely than, should they be in Hi-Sec in their current form at all?
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Mario Putzo
1344
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 04:00:20 -
[618] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Inflation is bad. Nullsec income does need redone, but just a net buff to what's already there is not appropriate. [edit: Oh, and because income is relative, adjusting the one massively overpowered thing is a better solution by far than buffing all the others. The nail that stands up should get pounded down.
Inflation is not bad in EVE, it is irrelevant. 100% TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. EVE is a closed market system.
Now in the real world high inflation is bad, as it devalues a nations currency, which results in less trade value (higher cost imports/less revenue exports), and ultimately impacts the consumer the hardest as prices rise. This does not happen in EVE. Why, because we all use ISK, and only ISK. We have no competitive currency, there is no trade market for currencies, there is no trade value competition. It is ISK and only ISK.
If we all made 1T/minute, it would literally have 0 impact on the games economy, because the economy would just grow with the inflation. There is no negative drawback because there is no outside competition. Closed market economies are immune to inflation, and deflation. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15782
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 04:18:02 -
[619] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Inflation is not bad in EVE, it is irrelevant. 100% TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. EVE is a closed market system.
Not only has the price of everything doubled but inflation means that the value of running anoms has gone down due to the way the payouts are handled. Bounty based rewards do not rise with inflation while LP based rewards do. This is why we now find level 3 missions are on par with anom ratting.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Mario Putzo
1344
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 04:28:22 -
[620] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Inflation is not bad in EVE, it is irrelevant. 100% TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. EVE is a closed market system.
Not only has the price of everything doubled before we take into account mineral requirement changes but inflation means that the value of running anoms has gone down due to the way the payouts are handled. Bounty based rewards do not rise with inflation while LP based rewards do. This is why we now find level 3 missions are on par with anom ratting.
The don't do anoms, or go ask CCP in that thread I linked to provide NS with a better source of LP.
There is nothing stopping you from going to HS to earn better ISK, just as there is nothing stopping folks in HS from going to NS to have access to better PVP.
Inflation has 0 impact on EVE as a whole...regionally...well different regions are different, diversify friend. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15782
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 04:41:22 -
[621] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
The don't do anoms
That is the primary pve activity in sov space. Glad you are finally realising the problem
Mario Putzo wrote: There is nothing stopping you from going to HS to earn better ISK
Thats the problem, we already are going to highsec and abandoning null.
Mario Putzo wrote: Inflation has 0 impact on EVE as a whole
Everything costs a lot more than it used to while peoples income via bounties has not changed. Belt ratting went from good isk to worthless. Nobody rats in belts anymore which shows that inflation does have a negative impact on the game.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Mario Putzo
1344
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 04:48:30 -
[622] - Quote
Anoms/Belt ratting are not the only sources of ISK Go run Pirate L4s and make some Dank ISK selling implants or something, you do know why BL. Calls it the Crystal Army right? . The economy is larger and more robust than it has ever been. Prices are up and Incomes are up, everyone is making more money. Inflation has had 0 net drag on EVEs economy.(because it can not, it is impossible)
You can whine as much as you want about NS anoms, nobody cares really. There are numerous other ways to make ISK. I suggest you go read GSF Wiki and learn how to do them. If that means you come to HS to missions, groovy. EVE isn't fair. Or if you care that much about NS anoms, go to the thread I linked earlier and offer idea on how to make them better.
Nerfing incursions isn't going to make NS Anoms any better. So Clearly that isn't what your goal is in this thread. But we all knew that anyway. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
889
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 07:42:01 -
[623] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Inflation is not bad in EVE, it is irrelevant. 100% TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. EVE is a closed market system.
Not only has the price of everything doubled before we take into account mineral requirement changes but inflation means that the value of running anoms has gone down due to the way the payouts are handled. Bounty based rewards do not rise with inflation while LP based rewards do. This is why we now find level 3 missions are on par with anom ratting.
Rubbish, level 3's are not anywhere near anoms even with LP, what a lie that is!
Ella's Snack bar
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2099
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 08:14:35 -
[624] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: Rubbish, level 3's are not anywhere near anoms even with LP, what a lie that is!
They are if you use a several billion ship in highsec blitzing only the best LP available and turning down slow missions vs a normal T2 fit in Null running not the best anoms. They aren't if you take the average lvl 3 income. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12855
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 08:26:15 -
[625] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Inflation is not bad in EVE, it is irrelevant. 100% TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. EVE is a closed market system.
And you're done, thanks for playing.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
947
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 08:50:33 -
[626] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Anoms/Belt ratting are not the only sources of ISK Go run Pirate L4s and make some Dank ISK selling implants or something, you do know why BL. Calls it the Crystal Army right? . The economy is larger and more robust than it has ever been. Prices are up and Incomes are up, everyone is making more money. Inflation has had 0 net drag on EVEs economy.(because it can not, it is impossible)
You can whine as much as you want about NS anoms, nobody cares really. There are numerous other ways to make ISK. I suggest you go read GSF Wiki and learn how to do them. If that means you come to HS to missions, groovy. EVE isn't fair. Or if you care that much about NS anoms, go to the thread I linked earlier and offer idea on how to make them better. If I am looking for the most efficient ISK why would I go run pirate L4 missions when I can make more doing highsec incursions in complete safety?
If I am looking for the most efficient ISK why would I do anything other than highsec incursions in complete safety?
That really doesn't seem like a recipe for a vibrant PvP game to me. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15786
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 10:49:25 -
[627] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Anoms/Belt ratting are not the only sources of ISK Go run Pirate L4s and make some Dank ISK selling implants or something.
There are no level 4s in sov null.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15786
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 10:50:43 -
[628] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: They are if you use a several billion ship in highsec blitzing only the best LP available and turning down slow missions vs a normal T2 fit in Null running not the best anoms. They aren't if you take the average lvl 3 income.
800 mil, which is more than half the cost of a carrier which is needed to hit the best anom income.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
477
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 11:02:16 -
[629] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: They are if you use a several billion ship in highsec blitzing only the best LP available and turning down slow missions vs a normal T2 fit in Null running not the best anoms. They aren't if you take the average lvl 3 income.
800 mil, which is more than half the cost of a carrier which is needed to hit the best anom income.
my carrier was around 2.7bil and got me 90mil an hour in nullsec using 1 account in an upgraded system, ishtar was pushing around 60mil an hour
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
36557
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 11:02:23 -
[630] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Rubbish, level 3's are not anywhere near anoms even with LP, what a lie that is! Did you find that quote of mine yet (see post 604)?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Leannor
Central Builders Incorporated Natural Selection Initiative
160
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 11:25:09 -
[631] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:maybe rather than nerfing highsec incursions, perhaps we should be asking for a buff to nullsec (active) income sources.
Inflation is bad. Nullsec income does need redone, but just a net buff to what's already there is not appropriate. [edit: Oh, and because income is relative, adjusting the one massively overpowered thing is a better solution by far than buffing all the others. The nail that stands up should get pounded down. Inflation is not bad in EVE, it is irrelevant. 100% TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. EVE is a closed market system. Now in the real world high inflation is bad, as it devalues a nations currency, which results in less trade value (higher cost imports/less revenue exports), and ultimately impacts the consumer the hardest as prices rise. This does not happen in EVE. Why, because we all use ISK, and only ISK. We have no competitive currency, there is no trade market for currencies, there is no trade value competition. It is ISK and only ISK. If we all made 1T/minute, it would literally have 0 impact on the games economy, because the economy would just grow with the inflation. There is no negative drawback because there is no outside competition. Closed market economies are immune to inflation, and deflation.
maybe, then, we should introduce Sov currencies. Amarrian Kyat, Caldari Ruble, Gallente Dollar, Minmatar Rupee. That would b a very interesting development and expansion for the game. Corporations would choose to adopt one currency or other, or a mix, and individuals can choose which currency to buy with from the selection provided by their corp (muhc like how you select which Corp Wallet to buy with).
How to set the rates? Easy ... treat each currency like you do any other market item. Imagine 'trit' was a currency. There are buy orders and sell orders. Initially it'll be a flat playing field. Then, due to occupation and useage as currencies can only be used (in empire) in their original factions, the price will vary as differeing amounts of trade happen in different places. I'd imagine the caldari Ruble would soon become highly used and far more valuable. Bufs' to the lowly minmatar ruppe would be via intriducing something only fpund in Minmatar space ... maybe each race has one each of mex/iso/nox (with two having only nox). that way all mex trade would come out of Minmatar, potentially giving some stability overall.
Probably lots of holes in that, just writing as I think, but sure a brainstroming session could eaxily come up with a working idea. Would certainly add a lot of market risk. It might also reduce people having big cash stocks, as only 'hard items' would be a surity against a currency crash.
anyway ... off to lunch ... nom nom nom.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10863
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 12:28:11 -
[632] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Of course you are spinning, this is what you people are playing for, when you moan that the best null sec system can support 10 people at most. This is what you people have been asking for in terms of making it worthwhile to be in 0.0 and if you can get hisec missions reduced to level 3's and Incursions removed then you win even more. Of course its not set in stone, but they have it in mind don't they. Talk about wanting the cake and eating it...
This is what insanity looks like. In order to make things "work" in your head you have to make up some conspiracy theory so taht everything fits. So thin you can lie to yourself and pretend that people commenting on the game's structure and situation are doing it out of some greed related to imaginary space money....
It's just that stupid. And it reeks of projection, because usually it's the conspiracy theorists themselves who are actually conspiring to make people change something..
The bolded part is the best part. "We" are winning already, we've got afkable anoms in null sec for steady income AND high sec alts for making the better Incursion isk (while occupying incursion fleet positions and laughing at the high sec types in the wait list).
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Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno.
4420
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 13:00:28 -
[633] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:The bolded part is the best part. "We" are winning already, we've got afkable anoms in null sec for steady income AND high sec alts for making the better Incursion isk (while occupying incursion fleet positions and laughing at the high sec types in the wait list).
i've found it funny for a long time that those who frame the discussion as being 'highseccers versus nullsec/lowseccers' are evidently incapable of looking to the left and to the right of themselves |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12856
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 13:19:20 -
[634] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The bolded part is the best part. "We" are winning already, we've got afkable anoms in null sec for steady income AND high sec alts for making the better Incursion isk (while occupying incursion fleet positions and laughing at the high sec types in the wait list).
i've found it funny for a long time that those who frame the discussion as being 'highseccers versus nullsec/lowseccers' are evidently incapable of looking to the left and to the right of themselves
Or realizing that likely a full third of highsec is alts. Probably closer to half, in all honesty.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Inora Sera
Sera's Varangians
0
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Posted - 2015.05.01 13:19:51 -
[635] - Quote
So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.
Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one. So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.
So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.
If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12856
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 13:22:47 -
[636] - Quote
Inora Sera wrote: If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
So, rather than, you know, actually being able to reasonably shoot these farmers, the barrier to entry should not only be 60 people or so, but also we'd be basically afk while doing it? Are you kidding?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Inora Sera
Sera's Varangians
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 13:38:10 -
[637] - Quote
Yeah, didn't say it was the best idea ever but it's still a way
I mean, there's so many ways to Meta in EvE, infiltrate their channels, their coms, to know when they're almost done so you don't have to afk for an hour, or whatever time it takes to do one of those.
And who knows, someone does take the time and pulls it off a few time, might make them cry enough to make CCP investigate and realize it's out of whack.
I mean if some people are willing to shoot monuments for hours at a time when they're unhappy with CCP... what's a little AFK to "save the game" right ? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10865
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 13:49:08 -
[638] - Quote
Inora Sera wrote:So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.
Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one. So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.
So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.
If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
It doesn't work that way.
Even if it did, it's a mistake to think that desiring a healthy and proper balance and restoration of this game's risk/reward scheme has anything to do with wanting to kill someone's precious payout (speaking for myself only, the OP can speak for herself). There is nothing wrong with people fleeting up and making some isk.
The problem comes when that kind of activity is too safe compared to other activities. There are pve activities that pay more than high sec incursions (by far in some cases), but ALL of them require the individual pilot gaining the reward to take more measurable risk. Even FW missions are more risky, the imbalance there is that the missions are doable with small ships so while risk exists, it's not high enough to balance out the outrageous income potential.
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Iam The Flash
New Eden Cultural Exchange Advent of Fate
54
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Posted - 2015.05.01 14:40:41 -
[639] - Quote
oh shut up
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
482
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 14:42:41 -
[640] - Quote
Iam The Flash wrote:oh shut up
oh look its mr grumpy
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Mario Putzo
1356
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 15:37:01 -
[641] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Inora Sera wrote:So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.
Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one. So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.
So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.
If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
It doesn't work that way. Even if it did, it's a mistake to think that desiring a healthy and proper balance and restoration of this game's risk/reward scheme has anything to do with wanting to kill someone's precious payout (speaking for myself only, the OP can speak for herself). There is nothing wrong with people fleeting up and making some isk. The problem comes when that kind of activity is too safe compared to other activities. There are pve activities that pay more than high sec incursions (by far in some cases), but ALL of them require the individual pilot gaining the reward to take more measurable risk. Even FW missions are more risky, the imbalance there is that the missions are doable with small ships so while risk exists, it's not high enough to balance out the outrageous income potential.
You gotta get off that crutch friend. Risk/Reward is not a balance metric...it can't be because it is an immeasurable. Risk/Reward is a catch all buzz phrase that lames use to attempt to garner favor in a discussion nothing more, nothing less. Again, the answer is not changing incursions (they are a capped event) the answer is making other activities more economically viable by comparison, so people can say, "Man I never get into incursion fleets, guess ill go do this other equally lucrative event".
I think incursions are a great system, and it would be nice to see CCP expand the system itself into other areas of space. Group play should always earn more than solo play. I mean if Incursions were generating 200m/hr by soloists I could see an issue. However people seem to completely ignore the hour+ it takes to set up a fleet, where folks earn effectively 0isk/hr. So lets just say in a 2 hour span, 1 hour @ 0isk/hr setting up a fleet, 1 hour at 200m/hr = 100m/hr combined, in 2 hours in Missions I can get 150-160m, in 2 hours in anoms I can get 120-140m (more if I team up with 1 other pilot no more than that then its more like 240-260m)
But you need to get off risk/reward, it has never been used as a balance metric, and it never will be. The only reason changes occur is because of an inadequacy in regional living. (why industry and mining changes were tweaked in NS, because they were previously lacking in terms of providing for the region)
One good way to do this would be to change bounty splits. Allow more pilots to work together before splitting bounties takes place. This facilitates faster group clearing as an option, netting more isk/hr for the whole group, while still allowing soloists to maintain current levels of income. Perhaps trial it by extending it to a Squad of people first, meaning for anom running 10 people can get 80m/hr at the same time (although this value would increase due to faster clear times). |
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
100
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 15:41:46 -
[642] - Quote
I imagine the seed that makes people rail against incursions is the same that I feel about them.
I find these "25 man raids" (to borrow a comparison) to be awful and boring. They are tediousness defined, and yet they are very lucrative.
So, I choose not to take the money. However, it is not a good sign that in a game (you know , for fun), one of the most lucrative activities is no fun at all. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
889
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 15:47:57 -
[643] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Of course you are spinning, this is what you people are playing for, when you moan that the best null sec system can support 10 people at most. This is what you people have been asking for in terms of making it worthwhile to be in 0.0 and if you can get hisec missions reduced to level 3's and Incursions removed then you win even more. Of course its not set in stone, but they have it in mind don't they. Talk about wanting the cake and eating it...
This is what insanity looks like. In order to make things "work" in your head you have to make up some conspiracy theory so taht everything fits. So thin you can lie to yourself and pretend that people commenting on the game's structure and situation are doing it out of some greed related to imaginary space money.... It's just that stupid. And it reeks of projection, because usually it's the conspiracy theorists themselves who are actually conspiring to make people change something.. The bolded part is the best part. "We" are winning already, we've got afkable anoms in null sec for steady income AND high sec alts for making the better Incursion isk (while occupying incursion fleet positions and laughing at the high sec types in the wait list).
Well I am not the one telling everyone how good I am at PvE in almost every thread I post in, neither do I tell people they are mad if they disagree with me, like your favourite of suggesting those that disagree with you are on meds or something similar. Neither do I look at the max income one can make from level 4's and compare that to a afk method of running anoms and stating that Level 4's are too good.
You, baltec1 and a number of others go on and on like broken record players about level 4's in hisec and incursions being out of kilter, that smacks of an agenda.
But yeah I am mad, obviously...
EDIT: As for making the point that many people who are in null sec have mission/incursion running alts, what of it, many alliances have CTA's that if you turn up after they have gone you are required to not do anything in game, so having the ability to play somewhere else just seems like commons sense. Does not bother me in the slightest, good luck to them, I really don't see what the issue is?
Ella's Snack bar
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Mario Putzo
1360
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 15:48:41 -
[644] - Quote
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:I imagine the seed that makes people rail against incursions is the same that I feel about them.
I find these "25 man raids" (to borrow a comparison) to be awful and boring. They are tediousness defined, and yet they are very lucrative.
So, I choose not to take the money. However, it is not a good sign that in a game (you know , for fun), one of the most lucrative activities is no fun at all.
Making isk in eve is generally boring as balls. The nice thing about Incursions is you know there are X number of pilots equally as bored as you are!
I never done them because I don't like waiting for things to get rolling. Ive tried to get involved in them, but honestly hour+ of waiting while FC or w/e goes over everyones fit, and pieces together optimal ******* sucks. Id rather just mission than sit in a station waiting for optimal to get set up. Ill take 80m over station spinning anyday of the week, and twice on sundays since I actually get that day off....most of the time. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10865
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 15:48:49 -
[645] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Inora Sera wrote:So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.
Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one. So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.
So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.
If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
It doesn't work that way. Even if it did, it's a mistake to think that desiring a healthy and proper balance and restoration of this game's risk/reward scheme has anything to do with wanting to kill someone's precious payout (speaking for myself only, the OP can speak for herself). There is nothing wrong with people fleeting up and making some isk. The problem comes when that kind of activity is too safe compared to other activities. There are pve activities that pay more than high sec incursions (by far in some cases), but ALL of them require the individual pilot gaining the reward to take more measurable risk. Even FW missions are more risky, the imbalance there is that the missions are doable with small ships so while risk exists, it's not high enough to balance out the outrageous income potential. You gotta get off that crutch friend. Risk/Reward is not a balance metric...it can't be because it is an immeasurable. Risk/Reward is a catch all buzz phrase that lames use to attempt to garner favor in a discussion nothing more, nothing less. Again, the answer is not changing incursions (they are a capped event) the answer is making other activities more economically viable by comparison, so people can say, "Man I never get into incursion fleets, guess ill go do this other equally lucrative event". I think incursions are a great system, and it would be nice to see CCP expand the system itself into other areas of space. Group play should always earn more than solo play. I mean if Incursions were generating 200m/hr by soloists I could see an issue. However people seem to completely ignore the hour+ it takes to set up a fleet, where folks earn effectively 0isk/hr. So lets just say in a 2 hour span, 1 hour @ 0isk/hr setting up a fleet, 1 hour at 200m/hr = 100m/hr combined, in 2 hours in Missions I can get 150-160m, in 2 hours in anoms I can get 120-140m (more if I team up with 1 other pilot no more than that then its more like 240-260m) But you need to get off risk/reward, it has never been used as a balance metric, and it never will be. The only reason changes occur is because of an inadequacy in regional living. (why industry and mining changes were tweaked in NS, because they were previously lacking in terms of providing for the region)
Let CCP say that. And no on said antyhting about risk/reward being a 'balance metric'. It's not, it's a core gameplay factor, basically the reason for playing. And ccp (probably inadvertently) knocked it out of whack. They replicated the high sec lvl 5 situation , but worse because high sec incursions don't even have the balancing feature of burnt agent standings as a consequence.
While imbalances have always existed, the current one didn't until after 2008. Before that and with the exception of the lvl 5 mission bug, if you as an individual pilot wanted "more/better" pve, you have to risk your ship to other player intervention (ie leave high sec) for that to happen. And that was a good thing, because dodging other players is WAY more interesting gameplay than just "fight off stupid npcs" ever could be.
High Sec incursions are just one of the symptoms of the post 2008/9 imbalances, there is also FW missions (WAY more income than even high sec incursions, all for the price of replacing a stealth bomber ever few days), lvl 5 capital blitzing (which was further imbalanced by the same drone mod and fight bonus application changes that created Skynetting) and the unnecessary buffing of mid level combat exploration loot tables (mid level invuls being better loot than ANY x-tpe mods in existence).
TBH it doesn't seem like you have enough knowledge of PVE to even understand the imbalances, and yet you feel confident enough to opine about it. I'd suggest learning more, then forming an opinion.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10865
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 15:53:44 -
[646] - Quote
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:I imagine the seed that makes people rail against incursions is the same that I feel about them.
I find these "25 man raids" (to borrow a comparison) to be awful and boring. They are tediousness defined, and yet they are very lucrative.
So, I choose not to take the money. However, it is not a good sign that in a game (you know , for fun), one of the most lucrative activities is no fun at all.
I grind through it because I like the isk and the community I fly with. But yea, they are boring as hell unless someone falls asleep or (now) rare contest happens. CCP tends to do a "COSMOS" when it comes to pve, put it out there, iterate on it a bit, then abandon it. Which is why we're seeing "Drifters" rather than anything else.
That's bad, because while PVE isn't the focus of the game (thank space-God), it has far reaching influences of consequences on the rest of the game, and right now to many of those influences are bad. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
889
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 15:55:51 -
[647] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:I imagine the seed that makes people rail against incursions is the same that I feel about them.
I find these "25 man raids" (to borrow a comparison) to be awful and boring. They are tediousness defined, and yet they are very lucrative.
So, I choose not to take the money. However, it is not a good sign that in a game (you know , for fun), one of the most lucrative activities is no fun at all. I grind through it because I like the isk and the community I fly with. But yea, they are boring as hell unless someone falls asleep or (now) rare contest happens. CCP tends to do a " COSMOS" when it comes to pve, put it out there, iterate on it a bit, then abandon it. Which is why we're seeing "Drifters" rather than anything else. That's bad, because while PVE isn't the focus of the game (thank space-God), it has far reaching influences of consequences on the rest of the game, and right now to many of those influences are bad.
I look forward to a Drifter reading some of your posts...
Ella's Snack bar
|
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
101
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 15:58:14 -
[648] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:I imagine the seed that makes people rail against incursions is the same that I feel about them.
I find these "25 man raids" (to borrow a comparison) to be awful and boring. They are tediousness defined, and yet they are very lucrative.
So, I choose not to take the money. However, it is not a good sign that in a game (you know , for fun), one of the most lucrative activities is no fun at all. I grind through it because I like the isk and the community I fly with. But yea, they are boring as hell unless someone falls asleep or (now) rare contest happens. CCP tends to do a " COSMOS" when it comes to pve, put it out there, iterate on it a bit, then abandon it. Which is why we're seeing "Drifters" rather than anything else. That's bad, because while PVE isn't the focus of the game (thank space-God), it has far reaching influences of consequences on the rest of the game, and right now to many of those influences are bad.
Its just..... the kind of game that Incursions are is the kind I just couldnt face in WoW when I left that.
I just...ugh. Its not EvE to me. Its not interacting with a living universe. Almost any other aspect of PvE can be and often is. Site-hunting and exploring and worm-hole diving can all bring you into the world.
But Incursions just seem to me to be a case of "Sit here and basically let the cash roll in." I just... I just guess maybe EvE has changed and Ive been left behind.
Thank goodness I have my extortion racket and my family's other activities to fall back on.
PS Dont get me wrong, Im all in favour of it if people like it. I just think people wish there was some thing like it that the rest of us could get in on. |
Mario Putzo
1363
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:06:30 -
[649] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Let CCP say that. And no on said antyhting about risk/reward being a 'balance metric'. It's not, it's a core gameplay factor, basically the reason for playing.
Actions speak louder than words. You know what CCP did to HS incursions 6 months ago...they buffed them by roughly 33%. The isk/hr didn't change much, only the frequency in which one can run them. That is a pretty dank buff. ~33% more uptime.
Risk/Reward is not a factor, it is not a mechanic. It is an opinion that some players have, and some players don't. Last I checked the reason for playing is because it is a video game nothing more, nothing less. The reason I play is because it fills time, and I have met some really chill folks that I like to socialize with. Risk/Reward isn't even in the back of my mind when I play. Its just pixels, pixels have no value, I can't cash out ISK for real world cash, the only reason to play is because you are paying for a subscription with either cash, or time.
Thats it. There is no such thing as risk/reward. It is a ~narrative~ you wrap yourself up in, to feel like you are justified in doing X event over Y, it has 0 practical impact on the game, and is not remotely "the reason for playing". Many folks have different reasons for playing, which ultimately come down to more or less 1 common theme. Blowing up pixels with other pixels be they NPC or PC controlled. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10865
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:09:45 -
[650] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:
Well I am not the one telling everyone how good I am at PvE in almost every thread I post in, neither do I tell people they are mad if they disagree with me, like your favourite of suggesting those that disagree with you are on meds or something similar. Neither do I look at the max income one can make from level 4's and compare that to a afk method of running anoms and stating that Level 4's are too good.[/quote[
You, baltec1 and a number of others go on and on like broken record players about level 4's in hisec and incursions being out of kilter, that smacks of an agenda.
Edit: I was going to respnd to this but their only so many ways one can tell someone they don't like them and that they think they have"problems" before one says "why bother?".
Quote:But yeah I am mad, obviously... EDIT: As for making the point that many people who are in null sec have mission/incursion running alts, what of it, many alliances have CTA's that if you turn up after they have gone you are required to not do anything in game, so having the ability to play somewhere else just seems like commons sense. Does not bother me in the slightest, good luck to them, I really don't see what the issue is?
Of course you don't, that much is obvious. Those 'atls' are making isk either in safety (high sec) or in "inconsequential risk" situations (faction warfare missions, who cares if you lose a purifier every other day when you can make 200 mil per hour?) are bad for the game.
When we rat in null with a PVE ship, or we do the same in wormhole space, or we make a lvl 5 running fleet or incursion fleet in lwo sec, we are PAYING for the isk/items/wealth we are putting into the EVE economy by risking pve fit ships we'd rather not lose. This creates content for everyone, "stress" for us PVErs (that makes the rewards we gain against the best efforts of the "PVPrs" that much sweeter) and opportunities for the pvp guys who try to stop us.
That's competition, and that's balance. Making mad isk in safety or when we don't care if the ship explodes, that's un-balanced(how do you cut a groups supply line off when that supply is invulnerable and protected by CONCORD?). I'm going to keep doing it as long as CCP makes that stuff available, but the difference between you and me is that I'm honest enough to call these things what they actually are: not the best gameplay EVE can offer. |
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Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
102
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:10:14 -
[651] - Quote
Perhaps risk/reward should be titled
Do You Like The Gamble?!
http://righteousfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/god_gamblers_gal.jpg |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15792
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:18:40 -
[652] - Quote
Inora Sera wrote:So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.
Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one. So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.
So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.
If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
So what do the "60 haters" get out of this?
Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Mario Putzo
1363
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:24:10 -
[653] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Inora Sera wrote:So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.
Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one. So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.
So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.
If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
So what do the "60 haters" get out of this? Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet.
What balance issues are you referring to again? |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
889
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:28:03 -
[654] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Inora Sera wrote:So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.
Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one. So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.
So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.
If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
So what do the "60 haters" get out of this? Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet. What balance issues are you referring to again?
Perhaps we can remove all the ISK that was created by the Tech imbalance, I hope he means this...
Ella's Snack bar
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1765
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:32:38 -
[655] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Inora Sera wrote:So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.
Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one. So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.
So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.
If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
So what do the "60 haters" get out of this? Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet. What balance issues are you referring to again? Perhaps we can remove all the ISK that was created by the Tech imbalance, I hope he means this...
The TECH imbalance created 0 ISK unless someone found a way to sell to NPC buy orders...
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15792
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:35:13 -
[656] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Actions speak louder than words.
Lets take a closer look at CCPs actions over the last year shall we?
Industry revamp.
They nerfed high sec industry and buffed nullsec industry. Null industry is now more rewarding than in highsec which was CCPs goal, stating that people who do industry in null expend more effort, cost, time and risk therefore should see greater rewards.
Refining update. CCP nerfed highsec refining and buffed null sec refining. Again, stating that more risk, effort and cost should yeild more reward.
Ore Changes. CCP have worked on ore with the goal of making nullsec mining more rewarding than in highsec, again stating that people who take more more risk, effort and cost should be rewarded.
Looking further back we see PI gives morereward in null than highsec as does exploration. Are we seeing a pattern yet?
CCP are slowly revamping the whole game so that you get more reward for greater risk/effort/cost. So, everything you have said about risk/reward is just flat out wrong.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1765
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:35:19 -
[657] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Inora Sera wrote:So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.
Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one. So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.
So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.
If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.
Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
So what do the "60 haters" get out of this? Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet.
Nothing since it was a bad idea to begin with. You can't **** up another fleet's payout unless you beat them at completing the site OR somehow manage to join their fleet AND get on grid for the site closure.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15792
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:37:09 -
[658] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The TECH imbalance created 0 ISK unless someone found a way to sell to NPC buy orders...
Best part of the tech argument is that they have no idea how much a tech moon tower actually made, they just assume it was infinite.
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Mario Putzo
1363
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:37:41 -
[659] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: Perhaps we can remove all the ISK that was created by the Tech imbalance, I hope he means this...
Oh and lets get rid of T2 BPOs too and remove ISK from anyone who has them since it is an unfair advantage people got just because they were around at the time.
Lets also ban direct trading, and money transfers, because its not fair if some folks know people with deep pockets and didn't actually have to put in the effort themselves to get isk or items.
Also we should totally rebalance mineral distribution, its totally not fair that I have to source from NS to get R64s, and Mega/Zyd/Merc.
Heck we should also get rid of PLEX because its not fair that some dude irl makes $30/hr and I don't make anything because I am a no life with no job. Why should he be able to RMT ISK, when I have to work for it.
I know lets just make everything equal so it doesn't matter where you play the game, everything is the same. We can even take isk out of the game because its totes not fair that some folks have more than me, they should have to build everything they want to use, If I can do it so can they.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
889
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:46:28 -
[660] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Dracvlad wrote:
Well I am not the one telling everyone how good I am at PvE in almost every thread I post in, neither do I tell people they are mad if they disagree with me, like your favourite of suggesting those that disagree with you are on meds or something similar. Neither do I look at the max income one can make from level 4's and compare that to a afk method of running anoms and stating that Level 4's are too good.[/quote[
You, baltec1 and a number of others go on and on like broken record players about level 4's in hisec and incursions being out of kilter, that smacks of an agenda.
Edit: I was going to respnd to this but their only so many ways one can tell someone they don't like them and that they think they have"problems" before one says "why bother?". Quote:But yeah I am mad, obviously... EDIT: As for making the point that many people who are in null sec have mission/incursion running alts, what of it, many alliances have CTA's that if you turn up after they have gone you are required to not do anything in game, so having the ability to play somewhere else just seems like commons sense. Does not bother me in the slightest, good luck to them, I really don't see what the issue is? Of course you don't, that much is obvious. Those 'atls' are making isk either in safety (high sec) or in "inconsequential risk" situations (faction warfare missions, who cares if you lose a purifier every other day when you can make 200 mil per hour?) are bad for the game. When we rat in null with a PVE ship, or we do the same in wormhole space, or we make a lvl 5 running fleet or incursion fleet in lwo sec, we are PAYING for the isk/items/wealth we are putting into the EVE economy by risking pve fit ships we'd rather not lose. This creates content for everyone, "stress" for us PVErs (that makes the rewards we gain against the best efforts of the "PVPrs" that much sweeter) and opportunities for the pvp guys who try to stop us. That's competition, and that's balance. Making mad isk in safety or when we don't care if the ship explodes, that's un-balanced(how do you cut a groups supply line off when that supply is invulnerable and protected by CONCORD?). I'm going to keep doing it as long as CCP makes that stuff available, but the difference between you and me is that I'm honest enough to call these things what they actually are: not the best gameplay EVE can offer.
In terms of null sec ISK generation, I actually prefer doing that because it is more fun, which I have indicated to you before in previous debates. The fun is doing this while people want to stop you, hell I enjoyed every warp to a site and every alignment back to the POS safe, because I knew I was at risk.
Lets go into a very basic answer in terms of people in null having mission and incursion runners in hisec, one is of course the CTA issue I detailed above, but the real issue is those alliances near major players who have an AFK cloaky camper in their system 24/24 7/7. I know a lot of people go on and on about there being no risk because they are afk and all the other BS to cover up for this lame style of play, but sov costs ISK and if it was not for the fact that this is so prevalent and risk free for the cloaky camper, then perhaps my stance would be less defensive on level 4's and incursions, but there are multiple imbalances all inter-linked, including the massive ISK generation created by the Tech imbalance which made it impossible for smaller alliances to stand up to any of the big three that were part of that. NCDOT however still have the war chest and assets from that, but they are failing because their people no longer really log in any more.
The faction warfare thing is something I do not like, however at least it is low sec and there is risk, but yeah the reward is out of kilter compared to the asset put at risk.
Hisec has risk, lots of BS get blown up in and around Osmon, when there was an incursion near Kamio I was there going after Goon incursion gankers at one point. You discount those risks as negligible, but they are there.
Incursions and FW ISK generation are not fun which is why I do not do them, but Incursions is a limited ISK font in terms of the number of people able to run them. At least Incursion runners put serious assets at risk, even if it is fairly minimal in a well run group.
Ella's Snack bar
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Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
106
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:46:47 -
[661] - Quote
*makes bales of hay* |
Mario Putzo
1363
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:48:15 -
[662] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: Actions speak louder than words.
Lets take a closer look at CCPs actions over the last year shall we? Industry revamp. They nerfed high sec industry and buffed nullsec industry. Null industry is now more rewarding than in highsec which was CCPs goal, stating that people who do industry in null expend more effort, cost, time and risk therefore should see greater rewards. Refining update. CCP nerfed highsec refining and buffed null sec refining. Again, stating that more risk, effort and cost should yeild more reward. Ore Changes. CCP have worked on ore with the goal of making nullsec mining more rewarding than in highsec, again stating that people who take more more risk, effort and cost should be rewarded. Looking further back we see PI gives morereward in null than highsec as does exploration. Are we seeing a pattern yet? CCP are slowly revamping the whole game so that you get more reward for greater risk/effort/cost. So, everything you have said about risk/reward is just flat out wrong.
Industry revamp HS industry is unchanged...it costs more to produce stuff, the great thing about that is, you just roll that back into the price of the product.,
Refining Requires more to get the same output, again, you just roll the cost back into the price of the final product. No change.
Ore changes Requires more to get the same output, again you just roll the additional cost back into the price of the final product. No change.
PI/Moon mining/Exploration is based on "lore" related scarcity, more development in HS means Less resources, less undiscovered stuff. There is no difference in Risk associated with HS or NS. PI infrastructure cost the same no matter where you put it, you need the same ships to move it around, and said ships are quite kill-able in all regions of space. Same applies to Exploration as well.
But keep imagining that its because of risk/reward.
Do you know why CCP changed any of the stuff you listed.
Industry Revamp. So NS could better produce on site instead of importing from HS with better time efficiency Refining So NS could better move larger ores around without depending on Gunmining to facilitate easier transport of product Ore Changes So NS could better source low ends at home instead of sourcing the bulk of building product from HS.
Nothing to do with Risk/Reward, everything to do with facilitating NS's ability to be able to reliably and efficiently produce product on site with much less dependency on HS.
As a HS producer, since Industry changes/Refine Changes, I actually earn more ISK today than I did before, and I still make more ISK than NS producers. So nah nothing to with Risk/Reward there, and I will earn even more ISK once the ore changes iron themselves out. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
889
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 16:56:11 -
[663] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Dracvlad wrote: Perhaps we can remove all the ISK that was created by the Tech imbalance, I hope he means this...
Oh and lets get rid of T2 BPOs too and remove ISK from anyone who has them since it is an unfair advantage people got just because they were around at the time. Lets also ban direct trading, and money transfers, because its not fair if some folks know people with deep pockets and didn't actually have to put in the effort themselves to get isk or items. Also we should totally rebalance mineral distribution, its totally not fair that I have to source from NS to get R64s, and Mega/Zyd/Merc. Heck we should also get rid of PLEX because its not fair that some dude irl makes $30/hr and I don't make anything because I am a no life with no job. Why should he be able to RMT ISK, when I have to work for it. I know lets just make everything equal so it doesn't matter where you play the game, everything is the same. We can even take isk out of the game because its totes not fair that some folks have more than me, they should have to build everything they want to use, If I can do it so can they.
I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"
Ella's Snack bar
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Mario Putzo
1366
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 17:04:02 -
[664] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote: I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"
Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15792
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 17:21:52 -
[665] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Dracvlad wrote: I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"
Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto.
And the irony is we have forced CCP to close so many game imbalances and exploits we have lost count.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Mario Putzo
1367
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 17:27:26 -
[666] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Dracvlad wrote: I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"
Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto. And the irony is we have forced CCP to close so many game imbalances and exploits we have lost count.
Fun fact, people were complaining about Tech bottleneck back in 2010, while GSF was busy being Kartooned. Before that people complained about Dyspro bottleneck. But ya it was Goons that got it changed not the other 350K people outside the CFC saying, hey wait a minute this is fucky. How much isk does an ego trip cost now a days?
(CCP used to use these little things as content drivers, until they realized artificial content creation was lame compared to letting the players make their own reasons) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15792
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 17:56:10 -
[667] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Dracvlad wrote: I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"
Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto. And the irony is we have forced CCP to close so many game imbalances and exploits we have lost count. Fun fact, people were complaining about Tech bottleneck back in 2010, while GSF was busy being Kartooned. Before that people complained about Dyspro bottleneck. But ya it was Goons that got it changed not the other 350K people outside the CFC saying, hey wait a minute this is fucky. How much isk does an ego trip cost now a days? Im sure it was Goons who got Tech buffed in the first place to right. Exposing the Dyspro Dupers prior to the rebalance of T2 build requirements. I imagine the Mittani himself spoke directly with Hilmar and made him an offer he couldn't refuse, or something like that? (CCP used to use these little things as content drivers, until they realized artificial content creation was lame compared to letting the players make their own reasons)
We were the ones that went and took almost all of them and then said "we warned you now nerf us". Thats the difference between us and you. You are willing to keep game imbalances when you make personal gain. We tell CCP its broken then force it to be fixed. As you said, we are here to destroy your game not the game.
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Mario Putzo
1368
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 18:15:27 -
[668] - Quote
Sitting on them when they were changed does not equate to being responsible for getting them changed.
Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you, only thing any off you have said is that they make more isk than something else, which is basically Whaaa they make more isk than me...lots of things are like that in EVE. EVE isn't fair and not everything is equal, and there is nothing stopping you from doing them yourself, it is not out of reach for anyone, it is not limited to only certain people. Ergo there is no imbalance, except inside your own head.
TECH however was imbalanced because of its requirements in building, and its disproportionate regional seeding, it was heavily limited in accessibility, not even remotely the same thing. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10867
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 18:40:14 -
[669] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you
You've been shown (by people who have experience with PVE, and by one of your own links), so lets not pretend like anything anyone says is going to matter. You and I both know that a CCP dev could come here and say it was so and you wouldn't listen.
That's ok, it's not important that everyone admit the truth, what's important is the truth be told and if some what to deny facts, that's them.
It's not about "fair" (as has been explained to you), it's about a broken system that creates distortions that cause bad things to happen. At the top of that heap is FW missions, then high sec incursions, then high sec lvl 4 missions (mainly 'farming' but also the SOE and Thukker LP stores), the the blitzability of low sec lvl 5 missions (which defeats the purpose of having lvl 5 missions in low sec, a mission that pay 90k LP should be completable in 3 minutes).
In your zeal to protect high sec (or in your display of prejudiced hatred for sov null, evidenced by how you always default to talking about null rather than the game as a whole) blinds you to the issues: real PVE players know there is a problem even if we are making use of the unbalanced stuff.
I'll simply point out again that the main defenders of the status quo in this discussion are not PVE players ,in fact most of you claim to have never run incursions at all. How in hell could you know whether or not a thing is broken if you don't even try to experience it? |
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
879
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 18:41:46 -
[670] - Quote
Would like to see CCP drop in here and say few things about incursions .
I think i remember them saying and showing some data that isk influx was ok.
But i am more interested in what they think on subject and isk amount potential per person especially in high sec incursion.
if there is a problem?
Part of it would be that incursion are static never changing sites with joke AI that makes em easy to grind with presetup ships that never need to change.
There is no incursion to speak off rats are in sites making me believe that grinding them was always intended by CCP.
So would like them drop a line or two about incursions.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15792
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 18:51:55 -
[671] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Sitting on them when they were changed does not equate to being responsible for getting them changed.
Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you, only thing any off you have said is that they make more isk than something else, which is basically Whaaa they make more isk than me...lots of things are like that in EVE. EVE isn't fair and not everything is equal, and there is nothing stopping you from doing them yourself, it is not out of reach for anyone, it is not limited to only certain people. Ergo there is no imbalance, except inside your own head.
TECH however was imbalanced because of its requirements in building, and its disproportionate regional seeding, it was heavily limited in accessibility, not even remotely the same thing.
Highsec has access to a huge isk printing machine that is incursions that people in dek do not. Said incursions can be run in highsec more or less all day every day while in dek they pop up a few times a year. Said incursions provide twice as much isk as the very best income possible in dek which having none of the risks, effort or even cost.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1766
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 19:14:49 -
[672] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Dracvlad wrote: I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"
Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto. And the irony is we have forced CCP to close so many game imbalances and exploits we have lost count. Fun fact, people were complaining about Tech bottleneck back in 2010, while GSF was busy being Kartooned. Before that people complained about Dyspro bottleneck. But ya it was Goons that got it changed not the other 350K people outside the CFC saying, hey wait a minute this is fucky. How much isk does an ego trip cost now a days? Im sure it was Goons who got Tech buffed in the first place to right. Exposing the Dyspro Dupers prior to the rebalance of T2 build requirements. I imagine the Mittani himself spoke directly with Hilmar and made him an offer he couldn't refuse, or something like that? (CCP used to use these little things as content drivers, until they realized artificial content creation was lame compared to letting the players make their own reasons) We were the ones that went and took almost all of them and then said "we warned you now nerf us". Thats the difference between us and you. You are willing to keep game imbalances when you make personal gain. We tell CCP its broken then force it to be fixed. As you said, we are here to destroy your game not the game.
You were already told in this very thread what to do if it was as imbalanced as you say. You already know the drill. Get overwhelming control over it and then tell CCP to nerf you.
Form 3+ fleet for every incursion and show them how much it break the game when 120+ player from null sec make that much ISK. Since incursion also have a rather low risk level, there is no problem for an entity recognized for it's ability to get things rolling with unmatched efficiency.
Show us, glorious Imperium, how broken it is. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1766
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 19:20:18 -
[673] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Its odd how you can view tech moons as being unbalanced yet you can see the same thing when it comes to highsec activities that are just as broken.
Well history, up until at least now, has proven that CCP considered the moons to be unbalanced while not proving the consider incursion unbalanced. Who's fault is it if CCP never deemed it worth it to divide a bunch of number by 2?
It's not like that have to re-seed incursions to nerf their income if they see it as unbalanced as they pretty much had to do with moons. |
Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4409
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 19:52:53 -
[674] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Lets take a closer look at CCPs actions over the last year shall we?
Industry revamp.
They nerfed high sec industry and buffed nullsec industry. Null industry is now more rewarding than in highsec which was CCPs goal, stating that people who do industry in null expend more effort, cost, time and risk therefore should see greater rewards.
Refining update. CCP nerfed highsec refining and buffed null sec refining. Again, stating that more risk, effort and cost should yeild more reward.
Ore Changes. CCP have worked on ore with the goal of making nullsec mining more rewarding than in highsec, again stating that people who take more more risk, effort and cost should be rewarded.
Looking further back we see PI gives morereward in null than highsec as does exploration. Are we seeing a pattern yet?
CCP are slowly revamping the whole game so that you get more reward for greater risk/effort/cost. So, everything you have said about risk/reward is just flat out wrong. And yet, null still sucks.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15792
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 21:09:00 -
[675] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:And yet, null still sucks.
At least its now being worked on now that we have won dominion.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15792
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 21:12:23 -
[676] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You were already told in this very thread what to do if it was as imbalanced as you say. You already know the drill. Get overwhelming control over it and then tell CCP to nerf you.
Form 3+ fleet for every incursion and show them how much it break the game when 120+ player from null sec make that much ISK. Since incursion also have a rather low risk level, there is no problem for an entity recognized for it's ability to get things rolling with unmatched efficiency.
Show us, glorious Imperium, how broken it is.
Very
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2732
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 21:31:27 -
[677] - Quote
no
not convinced, not supported
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
24
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 21:41:50 -
[678] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
You were already told in this very thread what to do if it was as imbalanced as you say. You already know the drill. Get overwhelming control over it and then tell CCP to nerf you.
Form 3+ fleet for every incursion and show them how much it break the game when 120+ player from null sec make that much ISK. Since incursion also have a rather low risk level, there is no problem for an entity recognized for it's ability to get things rolling with unmatched efficiency.
Show us, glorious Imperium, how broken it is.
Very
Holy s**t, people's creativity never ceases to amaze me. On a second thought this passive income is huge and it's most likely affecting the whole player base. Like someone said in the video - 20 PLEX for just 1 player, and there must be a lot more multiboxers out there, so they are affecting both PLEX prices and the market as a whole by pouring all that ISK into them.
I guess there's no limit except your hardware and will to go for more than 20 accounts...I've also got alts, but I am doing it the old fashioned way - alt tabbing through windows, this is on a whole new level. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12863
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 21:55:01 -
[679] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Its odd how you can view tech moons as being unbalanced yet you can see the same thing when it comes to highsec activities that are just as broken.
Of course not, that's how intellectual dishonesty works.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6623
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 22:29:01 -
[680] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Its a strategic agenda to control the ISK, Incursions and level 4's are what the people who want to do this use to make ISK, so they want them nerfed so they cannot be threatened... Even if I were take that at face value entirely, it still doesn't philosophically make sense. There are plenty of places to regroup or rebuild which do not have risk free income. The question then becomes, why would you ever hole up in NPC null or non-FW lowsec when, get this, it doesn't have as much accessible income as HiSec. I would be extraordinarily pleased if income in non-FW low or NPC null was buffed. It's not just sov that matters here - whole entire playstyles are debased due to the income disparity of HiSec/Incursions/L4s. Anuri Suaraj wrote:I really love this thread.
High sec incursion runners: "Get your hands out of my pocket..."
Low/null sec gankers: "Get rid of incursions so that only we can make bank and also kill a lot of high sec dweebs as they're pushed out into low sec."
And nobody has an agenda, allegedly.
Priceless. My agenda is to make every space in the game viable and/or able to support its residents versus the expected risks they face. I just find it utterly hilarious that HiSec maintains this monopoly so well. Besides Jenn, no one is really talking up FW income - everyone just casually accepts it or profits off it. Honestly I can't find myself too annoyed at it given the elephant in the room of HiSec income - at least FW supports players enough that they could participate in a non-stop PVP slugfest that FW is supposed to be. Rather, why does HiSec need such a gratuitous income faucet when there is basically no risk there? Why do places like Syndicate have absolutely no good bottom up income sources for small entities, when it is such an incredibly violent region? I'm tired of HiSec alts. You shouldn't need them, the game shouldn't encourage them. Each area of space should aim to have wealth generation be tied to the relative amount of risk. No one is harking on WHs either; they fight incredibly bloody battles for control of holes, and PvE there can be incredibly risky - making absurd wealth is fine when you are facing risks of the same magnitude. Fozziesov is tied to residents wanting to actually live in the space they own, if they can't, if sov-null can't support sov-null style losses, or isnt the best route to doing so, I can't see it doing well. Of course it does not make sense if you are talking about regrouping, I was talking about the stage before that when the CFC goes out to destabilise their target before the hammer drops, this is the interdiction of the ISK generation of their target. if you get off of your grand soap box and think about the ramifications of this in what is going to happen, people will be spreading out into null from hisec and in small groups that initially test the waters and will be able to develop from that. To close them down will take just one cloaky based on the current mechanics, but of course we will not use the system to make ISK at least for the medium term until things start t sort out, all our ISK will come from level 4's, the hisec markets and incursions. So waffling on about the retreat to NPC null and such is irrelevant because the systems we will try for are next to hisec and if it gets rolled over just come back when they head off to roll over someone else, rinse and repeat you got it. If enough people do this then it will start to open up the game. There is nothing wrong with hisec income, it allows people to break into 0.0, and that is why certain people want it nerfed, not because of risk or reward, it is a strategic necessity so they can keep their control on the majority of null and that they can easily tie them down by cutting of the income with single cloaky camper. There are a lot of people in smaller corps and alliances that are now starting to make their preparations to take a system or two, how to stop them, get rid of the two income sources that cannot be as easily interdicted without real effort. like they can shut down a null sec system. In truth only a tickover amount can be made because most of the people will be defending their system but it enables you to resist and gather resources if you are good at it and in Eve wearing down the enemy is how you win. This is not about risk / reward, its about strategic control of income, but the thing is that only a limited number of people can run Incursions, the main income is level 4's and that is what is always getting attacked by these people and they never stop going on and on about it, downplaying how much null sec anoms can be run for and quoting figures from blitzing to max effort on level 4's. It gets so wearing and its as tedious as hell.
Because all that freighter and hulk/industrial ganking was really all about highsec commerce interdiction and not "greifing" which goons like to do.
It's actually a legitimate objective to control a market with guns - Eve is built for that. It was intended. But the goons like to make it all about "griefing" to cover the whole subject in sperging "p!ss and vinegar" and take the fun out of it.
You see the goons have to win at Eve in order to wreck it. It's genius on CCPs part that they got the goons having to play the same game as anybody else. But the goons have the numbers for it.
So to see goons wanting highsec incursions nerfed because they cannot run the same interdiction on them as they do commerce is a bit of a letdown. Shows me that, as some long time and higher up goons have admitted to me privately, the days of "OMG! Bees!" are waning and the goons have grown fat and complacent in their dotage on tech moons.
Sad thing is they have given up and started whining too soon. I can't think of any bling boat that's going to stand up to say half a dozen blaster hyperions.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12863
|
Posted - 2015.05.01 22:36:11 -
[681] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: It's actually a legitimate objective to control a market with guns - Eve is built for that. It was intended.
There is no such thing as a "legitimate" objective, because this is a sandbox. There are no illegitimate objectives. Eve was built like that, it is intended.
If you hate player freedom, that's fine, but don't complain that it's not working as intended, because it is.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Mario Putzo
1384
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 03:42:05 -
[682] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you
It's not about "fair" (as has been explained to you), it's about a broken system that creates distortions that cause bad things to happen. At the top of that heap is FW missions, then high sec incursions, then high sec lvl 4 missions (mainly 'farming' but also the SOE and Thukker LP stores), the the blitzability of low sec lvl 5 missions (which defeats the purpose of having lvl 5 missions in low sec, a mission that pay 90k LP should be completable in 3 minutes).
So anything not NS is broken. LOL.
Maybe its NS that is broken... |
Arthur Aihaken
Jormungand Corporation
4412
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 03:44:19 -
[683] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:At least its now being worked on now that we have won dominion. Great, so it will potentially suck less after FozzieSov. But it will still suck.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12864
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 03:47:03 -
[684] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: So anything not NS is broken. LOL.
Maybe its NS that is broken...
If you're using incursions as the benchmark, it would make everything else look broken. Even wormhole PvE, which has ludicrous rewards, is at least balanced by risk factor.
So we can fix a dozen or more other things, or we can nerf incursions in some way. I would ask you which one makes better game design sense to you, but you invalidated your opinion on that one with your inflation comments earlier.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Mario Putzo
1384
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 04:01:55 -
[685] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: So anything not NS is broken. LOL.
Maybe its NS that is broken...
If you're using incursions as the benchmark, it would make everything else look broken. Even wormhole PvE, which has ludicrous rewards, is at least balanced by risk factor. So we can fix a dozen or more other things, or we can nerf incursions in some way. I would ask you which one makes better game design sense to you, but you invalidated your opinion on that one with your inflation comments earlier. Did you read what I quoted at all?
I didn't set any benchmarks, but if all those things I quoted are broken because NS doesn't earn as much as them...perhaps it is NS that is out of line compared to them? To me that just looks like 4 different ways to make isk in 2 different regions of space and all of them are fairly in line with each other in different ways. Not one NS income source mentioned by the resident PVE expert.
Really leads one to believe it is an issue with NS PVE, and not PVE in HS or I guess now also LS.
If it looks like ****, and smells like **** it is probably ****.
(Inflation has no impact on EVEs economy as a whole (as a whole means everything combined and summed to total EVEs GDP). It can not, it is not possible. Some regions and events may suffer (Earn less than others), but the greater economy will not.) |
Kaye Kaye
Mining and Trade
4
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 04:11:32 -
[686] - Quote
I play solo so don't run incursions, but...
It bugs me when players can't see past their personal game. There are over 500,000 accounts with at least over 100,000 players.
You should be able to find something to do in game without changing someone Else's.
It's also funny you said you run them and for some reason can't stop yourself from running them. Just pretend they're gone and make new friends that don't run incursions.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10869
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 05:43:57 -
[687] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you
It's not about "fair" (as has been explained to you), it's about a broken system that creates distortions that cause bad things to happen. At the top of that heap is FW missions, then high sec incursions, then high sec lvl 4 missions (mainly 'farming' but also the SOE and Thukker LP stores), the the blitzability of low sec lvl 5 missions (which defeats the purpose of having lvl 5 missions in low sec, a mission that pay 90k LP should be completable in 3 minutes). So anything not NS is broken. LOL. Maybe its NS that is broken...
See, that's your problem. Prejudice. Your opinion is based on nothing more than hatred of null sec. Out of all the unbalanced PVE I mention, they only thing you can focus on is a lack of mention of null PVE?
Null sec PVE is screwed up, but the game is also interconnected. Anoms were a poor choice for the thing that would become the center of the Dominion sov upgrade scheme. They spew liquid isk while being afkable. Additionally, because the majority of rewards are bounties (which haven't changed in years unless you count the ESS nerfs), that means null anoms are at the mercy of the economy where as wormhole blue loot and mission/Incursion LP are less so. AND unlike missions, Anoms aren't 'blitzable' for better rewards, meaning the ONLY way to increase isk per hour in an anom is alts. The end result is content that pays less per individual than most other PVE, but that is also afkable for liquid isk, resulting in the afktar.
The Combat exploration PVE (unrated sites and DED 7-10/10s) haven't been updated at all since the 2009 OPE nerf and are operating with now 9 year old loot tables. The addition of things like Pithum/Gistum invuls means null deadspace loot isn't the best and hasn't been for years.
When you add all the above up then add them to the fact that you can take a freaking bomber into FW or spend a couple bil blinging a pirate BS to use in near perfect safety in incursions, the end result is a truly messed up system. One you feel confident enough to comment on while not lifting a single finger to experience for yourself. If you did, you'd see the imbalance. Whether you'd be honest enough to admit that in public would be another matter.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10869
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 05:49:07 -
[688] - Quote
Kaye Kaye wrote:I play solo so don't run incursions, but...
It bugs me when players can't see past their personal game. There are over 500,000 accounts with at least over 100,000 players.
You should be able to find something to do in game without changing someone Else's.
It's also funny you said you run them and for some reason can't stop yourself from running them. Just pretend they're gone and make new friends that don't run incursions.
This is the kind of lie people need to tell themselves when they want to ignore an unpleasant reality. The bolded part is the tell, meaning this poster probably profits from the imbalances under discussion. The underlined bit is a common theme: people defending a broken status quo don't even have much experience with the broken things being discussed, but still feel confident enough to have an opinion about it.
It's not about taking something from someone, it's about a proper balance, one in which people who live in certain places aren't punished (rather than rewarded) for taking risks. High Sec incursions as currently constituted reward people for not taking risks, and no matter how you cut it, that's bad game design. |
Solecist Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
22757
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 06:33:39 -
[689] - Quote
Kaye Kaye wrote:I play solo so don't run incursions, but...
It bugs me when players can't see past their personal game. There are over 500,000 accounts with at least over 100,000 players.
You should be able to find something to do in game without changing someone Else's.
That's not possible. Ignorance doesn't magically change how reality works.
Whatever you do affects someone else ... ... even absense of influence, because you could have.
There is not a single thing you can do ... ... nowhere, ever ... ... that doesn't so somehow have effects on others.
Maybe try being less ignorant, self centered and antisocial.
Ha... yeah, right.
DOES YELLING ANNOY YOU ?
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CLICK THE LINK !! YOU LIKE THE IDEA !!
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Mario Putzo
1385
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 07:22:21 -
[690] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you
It's not about "fair" (as has been explained to you), it's about a broken system that creates distortions that cause bad things to happen. At the top of that heap is FW missions, then high sec incursions, then high sec lvl 4 missions (mainly 'farming' but also the SOE and Thukker LP stores), the the blitzability of low sec lvl 5 missions (which defeats the purpose of having lvl 5 missions in low sec, a mission that pay 90k LP should be completable in 3 minutes). So anything not NS is broken. LOL. Maybe its NS that is broken... See, that's your problem. Prejudice. Your opinion is based on nothing more than hatred of null sec. Out of all the unbalanced PVE I mention, they only thing you can focus on is a lack of mention of null PVE?
Its not bias, its experience. I have done every one of those events you listed, and cycle through them repeatedly. Except incursions, because I don't like to wait. I entered into 1 incursion group and it took the FC almost an hour to get his fleet sorted, and I said **** this and left....that was my incursion experience.
Secondly I don't hate NS, I have made a ton of ISK from NS. Pirate L4s which you so conveniently left off your list generate more isk/hr than some of the events you included on your list, namely L4s, and occasionally FW Missions. Also missing from your list is C6 WH Anoms which are by and far the number 1 source of making ISK in the game,600-1B/hr depending how you run them. **** you can make 130M/hr in a ******* Venture doing Gas sites.
Third in regards to FW missions, these generate isk 100% dependent on what the FW scene is like, and in a bomber the only way you are banging out isk without any real risk of loss (or warping in/out) is by flying with Minmatar against Amarr, any other choice gives you Damps from Gallente, Jams from Caldari, TPs from Minmatar. Amarr is viable in an SB because they TD which is useless against Missiles.
So your comparison is to what exactly, you have yet to actually state just what these PVE events are compared against.
- Its clearly not against C4,5,6 WH Income - Its clearly not against Pirate Faction L4s - Its clearly not against each other (they all generate relatively the same end result isk/hr unless under IDEAL circumstance, in which case Incursions pull ahead, but are dependent on having a fleet.)
This leaves Anoms and DED sites, and since NS has the highest cap for these, then process of elimination dictates this is what YOU not me, are comparing them to.
Of course the rest of your post goes on to explain more in detail about your thought process and that in fact it is NS you are comparing to.
Guess what I agree, Sov NS in particular needs to have some help in its PVE situation. But that does not mean it needs to come at the expense of Incursions, let alone the now 4 PVE events you claim to be out of balance. The only out of balance PVE is NS Anoms, and DED sites, heck even LS DED sites could use a pass.
I am a PVE player, I have done it all, and routinely do it all, except incursions, and I can tell you with experience that any of those events you call out of balance, are perfectly fine when compared to other "end game" PVE events.
Please stop trying to blow smoke up my ass.
Oh and for the record, I also make more isk/hr manufacturing than any PVE event in this game can touch, 100% risk free, should we nerf production too? |
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knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
541
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 07:52:41 -
[691] - Quote
High sec production? Yes. |
Mario Putzo
1389
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 08:13:49 -
[692] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:High sec production? Yes.
Actually LS, but 1 jump out is close enough ya |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12867
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 11:13:49 -
[693] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: Secondly I don't hate NS
The majority of your post history disagrees.
And yes, by the way, nerfing incursions would fix anoms and a bunch of other things besides, because income, and purchasing power thereby, are relative.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Kaye Kaye
Mining and Trade
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.05 01:49:58 -
[694] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Kaye Kaye wrote:I play solo so don't run incursions, but...
It bugs me when players can't see past their personal game. There are over 500,000 accounts with at least over 100,000 players.
You should be able to find something to do in game without changing someone Else's.
That's not possible. Ignorance doesn't magically change how reality works. Whatever you do affects someone else ... ... even absense of influence, because you could have. There is not a single thing you can do ... ... nowhere, ever ... ... that doesn't so somehow have effects on others. Maybe try being less ignorant, self centered and antisocial. Ha... yeah, right.
You do realize this is a game right?
1) Just because you think LOW and NULL are cool places to hang out with your time, many others don't. 2) Those others want fun things to do as well, things THEY think are fun, not you! 3) Let me repeat the 1st one for you.... Not everyone wants to play this game the way you do, but still want to play it. This may mean you don't always get your way; which is nerfing HS to get players to go to unsafe space so you can play with them. 4) THIS IS THE BIG ONE HERE: After only a few months, maybe 6; you have all the money you need to play solo for free and fly any ship you want. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15815
|
Posted - 2015.05.05 04:35:28 -
[695] - Quote
Kaye Kaye wrote:
You do realize this is a game right?
1) Just because you think LOW and NULL are cool places to hang out with your time, many others don't. 2) Those others want fun things to do as well, things THEY think are fun, not you! 3) Let me repeat the 1st one for you.... Not everyone wants to play this game the way you do, but still want to play it. This may mean you don't always get your way; which is nerfing HS to get players to go to unsafe space so you can play with them. 4) THIS IS THE BIG ONE HERE: After only a few months, maybe 6; you have all the money you need to play solo for free and fly any ship you want.
And like every game ever made you need it to be balanced well. If the safest area of space provides the best income why would anyone go to the more dangerous areas that require more effort, investment and risk?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Inquisitor Tyr
Phantom Squad The Blood Covenant
70
|
Posted - 2015.05.05 09:33:28 -
[696] - Quote
Hey guys!
So the last time you carebear numbskulls started complaining about how boring and/or easy it was to kill rats in the game, you know what happened?
Well, CCP made it more "interesting" to rat. How did they achieve this great feat you ask?
Instead of running the site you ran before - you now run the same site, but the rats alternate the targets. So your drones, fleet members, and logi support can all die. See, its much more interesting when the rats alternate targets.
Stop complaining about systems that effectively put isk in your wallets. Or would you like CCP to make something more interesting again ? |
Mario Putzo
1407
|
Posted - 2015.05.05 10:05:52 -
[697] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kaye Kaye wrote:
You do realize this is a game right?
1) Just because you think LOW and NULL are cool places to hang out with your time, many others don't. 2) Those others want fun things to do as well, things THEY think are fun, not you! 3) Let me repeat the 1st one for you.... Not everyone wants to play this game the way you do, but still want to play it. This may mean you don't always get your way; which is nerfing HS to get players to go to unsafe space so you can play with them. 4) THIS IS THE BIG ONE HERE: After only a few months, maybe 6; you have all the money you need to play solo for free and fly any ship you want.
And like every game ever made you need it to be balanced well. If the safest area of space provides the best income why would anyone go to the more dangerous areas that require more effort, investment and risk?
Maybe because they want to PVP with less effort, investment, and risk. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1231
|
Posted - 2015.05.05 15:19:24 -
[698] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Please, make others' enterprise less profitable, or at least make mine more so! It's only fair! Though, I don't do anything remotely like these other people, and never go where they are, the very thought that they're there making ISK just bugs me. So, CCP, take your million dollar machine and turn it toward my inclinations and personal preferences. You know the Great Gaming God is on my side! no its the fact that they are making the most amount of isk while undocked in the game with practically 0 risk. on a system based on risk vs reward its totally not within that system
Incursions dont even come close to wormholes as far as income.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
228
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Posted - 2015.05.05 19:39:06 -
[699] - Quote
Absolutely disagree that a fun and engaging aspect of highsec pve should even be considered to be removed from the game. Also, this is one of the few highsec activities that not only encourages but actually requires you to group up with others to accomplish and CCP loves that.
Let me say first off before my next comment: I am and always have been 100% highsec carebear and proudly so. I have fought adamantly against the normally poor treatment we receive from CCP with regards to our chosen area of game play, especially with regards to protecting our income.
As i mentioned in another post the term 'moderate' should ring true when discussing incomes in highsec. Not low as it is for highsec PI nor as high as it is for incursions or FW. Incursions and FW should payout more than running L4s but not as much more as they currently do.
Lets get to balancing this income situation as soon as possible.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
929
|
Posted - 2015.05.05 19:48:21 -
[700] - Quote
Group PvE.
A good thing.
That is all.
Carry on.
Not today spaghetti.
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ashley Eoner
472
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 02:14:34 -
[701] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:This is seriously harder than you think it is. Sure, you will generate a few ALODs from dingleberries who go AFK on gates or autopilot through Uedama/Niarja in their incursion boat, but actually ganking people in the sites isn't all that easy. Now...if the rats didn't shoot people with high Sansha's Nation standings...Oh yes.
baltec1 wrote:Good luck finding 100+ gankers who are wiling to blow these things up at a massive loss.
Oh come on it's like you guys don't even care about reality anymore.
11 catas easily takes out boosters and faction fit battleships. There's been a few incursion related ganks lately proving that. Then again those people aren't being lazy and poopooing on the forums they are actually out there doing it. Hell I could do it on my own but it's not worth my time to go to highsec.
Think hitting taking out a HQ fleet's boosters midsite won't cause some issues?
Jenn aSide wrote:Wormhole space is the most dangerous in EVE, it is no one elses fault if you don't understand that.
Carriers. You need CARRIERs, in the single most dangerous par tof EVE space, to match or exceed what can be made in HIGH SEC protected by concord while using su caps.
Thanks for helping me prove my point.
You need ONE carrier one dreadnaught and a couple other ships. Bammo +800m an hour with less effort than incursions.
You could in theory do it without the carrier but it'd require a lot more effort. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15827
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 04:21:55 -
[702] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:
Oh come on it's like you guys don't even care about reality anymore.
11 catas easily takes out boosters and faction fit battleships. There's been a few incursion related ganks lately proving that. Then again those people aren't being lazy and poopooing on the forums they are actually out there doing it. Hell I could do it on my own but it's not worth my time to go to highsec.
Think hitting taking out a HQ fleet's boosters midsite won't cause some issues?
Feel free to try to take out logi supported BS gangs with just 11 catalysts. As for bosters, they are not needed. I tanked incursions in my harpy fit megathron, its not hard.
Telling people to go attack others doesn't fix the problem that highsec PVE pays more than null PVE.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
98
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 06:51:49 -
[703] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Telling people to go attack others doesn't fix the problem that highsec PVE pays more than null PVE.
Since when is molon labe not principal around here? it is a complete and utter lie to decry that there is no risk is because players decline to bring it. It's player driven content, but some around here only know how to steer into barges or freighters.
baltec1 wrote:Good luck finding 100+ gankers who are wiling to blow these things up at a massive loss.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1698538#post1698538
Working as intended. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
515
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 07:55:37 -
[704] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:You need ONE carrier one dreadnaught and a couple other ships. Bammo +800m an hour with less effort than incursions.
You could in theory do it without the carrier but it'd require a lot more effort.
last time i was in a wormhole it was 2 carriers, 6 dreads and half a dozen lokis to make probably not even 800mil an hour (wont even go into the cost of the caps and lokis), less effort than anchoring up and shooting the tags?, pretty much anyone can do incursions risk free, you dont even need to watch dscan, good luck finding a nice wormhole where you can just rock in and make lots of isk without any risk and minimal skills, dont forget the effort of rolling the wormhole to make it semi safe and the fact you dont have any local to notice any reds coming in, the logistical efforts of not having any markets or stations nearby, lose a capital in a wormhole and you cant just autopilot in your shuttle to jita to buy another one. wormholes are just 1 big massive effort in every situation and cannot be compared to incursions, wormholers sacrifice a serious amount of benefits/services to make isk and risk a hella lot more.
Cipher Jones wrote:Incursions dont even come close to wormholes as far as income.
i really wish people would stop comparing wormholes, clearly you have never lived in a wormhole to understand
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
268
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 08:22:42 -
[705] - Quote
This is a good thread.
I approve the premise and the potential resolution.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Druze Okaski
Caldari Offshore
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 11:21:17 -
[706] - Quote
After reading everything it looks like all the risk in Incursions have been dealt with by the players. Fleet doctrines, secure movement between locations as well as knowledge about triggers and rat abilities. And of course letting the Incursion run as long as possible.
So the high payouts are made possible by the players. It is possible to make more ISK in other areas of the game but in reality it does not because other players interfere. This is the reason many want the option to kill Incursion runners. They want to be able to lower the income. But killing is a low an null sec option. Yes, it does exist in high sec but outside of CODE (who kill for fun) it is only done for profit because of CONCORD.
Now people gank freighters so it should be possible to gank some battleships as well. If you really want to it should not matter if it doesn't pay well. Imagine if freighters would only move in fleets with logi, scout and webber support. It is simply not done because is not necessary. So nobody does it. For Incursions a fleet is a must. It basicly forces people to act clever and as a team or they won't win. This makes killing them a no-go for most.
Reading all that's been said the best options to lower the income of Incursion runners are the following:
1. Run the Incursions yourself. More competition lowers individual income. (Works on the market as well as we all know.)
2. End the Incursions as soon as possible. Point 1 leads directly to this option. It gives the Incursion runners less time to farm. They have to move to the next location and every minute spend on moving is a minute lost creating income through Incursions.
A side effect of causing them to move more often is the option to kill them on the move. Yes, they know they are being hunted. Yes, they use travel fits, blockade runners and all the tricks in the book. But more moving (and refitting) means more chance for human error.
So please use all your options first before you call for the nerf bat. Just because you don't like the options does not make it broken.
BTW: It looks like the low and null sec gatecamps should be removed or high sec should receive them. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
75
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 14:31:25 -
[707] - Quote
Druze Okaski wrote: Reading all that's been said the best options to lower the income of Incursion runners are the following:
1. Run the Incursions yourself. More competition lowers individual income. (Works on the market as well as we all know.) .
The "if you can't beat them, join them" logic is always a flawed argument.
Otherwise we would all be flying with Baltec1 or (insert other giant Alliances here).
Another way to put it: You don't end greed by being more greedy than the other guy. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1771
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 14:41:16 -
[708] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Druze Okaski wrote: Reading all that's been said the best options to lower the income of Incursion runners are the following:
1. Run the Incursions yourself. More competition lowers individual income. (Works on the market as well as we all know.) .
The "if you can't beat them, join them" logic is always a flawed argument. Otherwise we would all be flying with Baltec1 or (insert other giant Alliances here). Another way to put it: You don't end greed by being more greedy than the other guy.
Except this is a CCP game so more people being greedy would show the imbalance even more and more than likely get it fixed if they see it needs to. Look at most of the past "controversial" changes that happened and I would bet you can remember history of such things getting used more and more before it got revised by CCP. It took months after drone mods affecting fighter really generated much complaints because the usage was rather limited. Once more people jumped on the bandwagon, the complaints got traction. Same for drone assists.
If incursion are as game breaking as people try to make it sound in this thread, CCP won't have a choice but to intervene if too many people do it or risk the economy slipping away.
It's a stupid way to deal with stuff IMO but it seems to be the one that player can do so ... |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2201
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 15:03:04 -
[709] - Quote
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Hey guys! ... Stop complaining about systems that effectively put isk in your wallets. Or would you like CCP to make something more interesting again ? Confirming drifters should regularly show up in incursions and doomsday carebear loot piniata's. This would be an acceptable risk offset to how incursions are simply being farmed right now. Truly, why bother going to null when all that delicious ISK is just waiting for you to hop into an incursion channel in hisec...
Nerf incursions.
That is all.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
524
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 15:09:51 -
[710] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Hey guys! ... Stop complaining about systems that effectively put isk in your wallets. Or would you like CCP to make something more interesting again ? Confirming drifters should regularly show up in incursions and doomsday carebear loot piniata's. This would be an acceptable risk offset to how incursions are simply being farmed right now. Truly, why bother going to null when all that delicious ISK is just waiting for you to hop into an incursion channel in hisec... Nerf incursions. That is all. F
kinda dont agree with that, i dont believe adding more npc contact is actually adding any risk to the situation
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 15:51:42 -
[711] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Druze Okaski wrote: Reading all that's been said the best options to lower the income of Incursion runners are the following:
1. Run the Incursions yourself. More competition lowers individual income. (Works on the market as well as we all know.) .
The "if you can't beat them, join them" logic is always a flawed argument. Otherwise we would all be flying with Baltec1 or (insert other giant Alliances here). Another way to put it: You don't end greed by being more greedy than the other guy. Except this is a CCP game so more people being greedy would show the imbalance even more and more than likely get it fixed if they see it needs to. Look at most of the past "controversial" changes that happened and I would bet you can remember history of such things getting used more and more before it got revised by CCP. It took months after drone mods affecting fighter really generated much complaints because the usage was rather limited. Once more people jumped on the bandwagon, the complaints got traction. Same for drone assists. If incursion are as game breaking as people try to make it sound in this thread, CCP won't have a choice but to intervene if too many people do it or risk the economy slipping away. It's a stupid way to deal with stuff IMO but it seems to be the one that player can do so ...
I believe this happens because of whining on the forums. While only a minority actually post, I bet a lot more lurk for valuable information. When people start clamoring about how x, y, and z is imbalanced, lurkers will usually be the first to try it out because they're here looking for valuable information that will get them ahead. Similarly to how I will be engaging drifters differently because of valuable information I have learned very recently. It's a lot like when piracy wasn't all that a big deal. The more press releases all these companies and regulation agencies made about piracy, the more popular it got. It's now to the point people in law enforcement agencies don't even view it as a big deal. I personally never have as well.
When it comes to Eve, I believe people bring up issues like this to purposely get people more involved so that CCP can take action which will have a positive net result for themselves. The markets will never get out of balance due to incursions because of the soft caps that are already in place. Never mind the fact the markets have already stabilized with the introduction of incursions. When you have uneducated people doing something that yields more profit, they're going to stick to what they know works. The grand majority of people, day in and day out, do the same things that yield them a personal satisfactory profit. They never critically think to themselves in such a way that would allow them to make even more profit because they are either content, which is a by product of ignorance sometimes, or because they are incapable.
I personally believe, this entire topic stinks with that kind of agenda. Talk about it enough to get the followers to hop on it and stick with it. But it will fail in the end because of the soft caps. What would happen instead is the income would get redistributed into different hands if everyone jumped in on it. I also believe, over time, if the competition got out of control it would resolve itself because of the soft caps and how income potential is diminished if you have too many players. More players also doesn't necessarily mean faster completion times outweighing efficient, proper sized fleets. Usually more people = more poop happens because of an innumerable amount of confounding variables at play due to so many people there with a preconceived idea of how things ought to be when they go apply themselves to the situation at hand.
At the end of the day, there are ways to stop something you don't like in this game. "Just do it!" |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15831
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 16:18:28 -
[712] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote: At the end of the day, there are ways to stop something you don't like in this game. "Just do it!"
There aren't ways to stop it. Sure you can spend a few billion trying to gank them at a huge loss but why would people waste their time to do that? Unlike Freighters these ships travel in gangs with large tanks, logi support, often boosters and can open fire right back at you. Ganking doesn't work on actual fleets. Ganking is done for profit, something the people of highsec cant seem to grasp. Killing the mom early was done for a while but ended because again, where is the gain for the people ending it early? Its not fun and it doesn't get you anything worth more than keeping it alive. You cant wardec these people as they are protected by NPC corps and you cant attck them in any normal way due to concord protection.
No, when something is out of whack in terms of reward the only viable way to deal with it is to close the abuse, something CCP has been forced to do many times in the past.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10902
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 16:45:24 -
[713] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Please, make others' enterprise less profitable, or at least make mine more so! It's only fair! Though, I don't do anything remotely like these other people, and never go where they are, the very thought that they're there making ISK just bugs me. So, CCP, take your million dollar machine and turn it toward my inclinations and personal preferences. You know the Great Gaming God is on my side! no its the fact that they are making the most amount of isk while undocked in the game with practically 0 risk. on a system based on risk vs reward its totally not within that system Incursions dont even come close to wormholes as far as income.
And wormholes don't come close to high sec in terms of safety. And that's the point. Do you think wormhole content and level of income in high sec would be balanced? |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1771
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 16:50:06 -
[714] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote: At the end of the day, there are ways to stop something you don't like in this game. "Just do it!"
There aren't ways to stop it. Sure you can spend a few billion trying to gank them at a huge loss but why would people waste their time to do that? Unlike Freighters these ships travel in gangs with large tanks, logi support, often boosters and can open fire right back at you. Ganking doesn't work on actual fleets. Ganking is done for profit, something the people of highsec cant seem to grasp. Killing the mom early was done for a while but ended because again, where is the gain for the people ending it early? Its not fun and it doesn't get you anything worth more than keeping it alive. You cant wardec these people as they are protected by NPC corps and you cant attck them in any normal way due to concord protection. No, when something is out of whack in terms of reward the only viable way to deal with it is to close the abuse, something CCP has been forced to do many times in the past.
Since you are not willing to beat them (incursion runners) at their own game (getting their sites so the income goes to you instead of them), then I guess you will have to wait for CCP to deem it important enough to change something about it. Which can be anywhere between the june release and the end of time. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10902
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 16:50:53 -
[715] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote: You need ONE carrier one dreadnaught and a couple other ships. Bammo +800m an hour with less effort than incursions.
You could in theory do it without the carrier but it'd require a lot more effort.
One carrier is right. And that one Carrier is in WORMHOLE space not protected by CONCORD, in space where the content can be exhausted (you can't keep wormhole pve going like you can an incursion). If someone is bold enough to take or build a capital ship in unprotected space in order to make money, that is the game working as intended. That's risk/reward done right.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1771
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 16:54:59 -
[716] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:ashley Eoner wrote: You need ONE carrier one dreadnaught and a couple other ships. Bammo +800m an hour with less effort than incursions.
You could in theory do it without the carrier but it'd require a lot more effort.
One carrier is right. And that one Carrier is in WORMHOLE space not protected by CONCORD, in space where the content can be exhausted (you can't keep wormhole pve going like you can an incursion). If someone is bold enough to take or build a capital ship in unprotected space in order to make money, that is the game working as intended. That's risk/reward done right.
Why are you still posting here instead of beating the war drums to motivate people to run them to the very limit to force CCP to do something about something oh so broken? Every 15 minutes wasted here is at least 1 site not getting run. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10902
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 16:56:35 -
[717] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote: At the end of the day, there are ways to stop something you don't like in this game. "Just do it!"
There aren't ways to stop it. Sure you can spend a few billion trying to gank them at a huge loss but why would people waste their time to do that? Unlike Freighters these ships travel in gangs with large tanks, logi support, often boosters and can open fire right back at you. Ganking doesn't work on actual fleets. Ganking is done for profit, something the people of highsec cant seem to grasp. Killing the mom early was done for a while but ended because again, where is the gain for the people ending it early? Its not fun and it doesn't get you anything worth more than keeping it alive. You cant wardec these people as they are protected by NPC corps and you cant attck them in any normal way due to concord protection. No, when something is out of whack in terms of reward the only viable way to deal with it is to close the abuse, something CCP has been forced to do many times in the past. Since you are not willing to beat them (incursion runners) at their own game (getting their sites so the income goes to you instead of them), then I guess you will have to wait for CCP to deem it important enough to change something about it. Which can be anywhere between the june release and the end of time.
All good, folks like me will make a fortune off the unbalanced things till then lol.
This is the problem with people, they can't be honest enough or objective enough about things to call it like it is. While I don't like a lot about Goon types, at least they are honest about unbalanced things while at the same time they are exploiting them, and I do the same thing which is why I have both a incursion alt and a faction warfare alt. What I no longer have are alts to experience any substantial risk while filling my space wallets with space bucks
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10902
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 17:03:50 -
[718] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:ashley Eoner wrote: You need ONE carrier one dreadnaught and a couple other ships. Bammo +800m an hour with less effort than incursions.
You could in theory do it without the carrier but it'd require a lot more effort.
One carrier is right. And that one Carrier is in WORMHOLE space not protected by CONCORD, in space where the content can be exhausted (you can't keep wormhole pve going like you can an incursion). If someone is bold enough to take or build a capital ship in unprotected space in order to make money, that is the game working as intended. That's risk/reward done right. Why are you still posting here instead of beating the war drums to motivate people to run them to the very limit to force CCP to do something about something oh so broken? Every 15 minutes wasted here is at least 1 site not getting run.
Because it's not that important. I've done my 'virtual civic duty' in pointing out the gross imbalance (that i'm benefitting from). A gross imbalance that helped thwart CCPs plans during this change(because rather than 'fight for better space', people just left for greener, more high-secy pastures), and will do so again when Fozziesov comes. CCP is literally wasting development time implementing a new Sov system that relies on PVE for defensive bonuses when it's stupid to do pve in null unless you're a renter or some kind of scrub.
CCP changes it, the game gets better. CCP doesn't change it, all good as far as I'm concerned, I adapted to the imbalances in 2011 after the event I just linked. But it is crappy suboptimal game design no matter how much you try to deny it.
Sorry if you can't understand this, but that a 'you' issue, not a 'me' issue.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8495
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 17:03:59 -
[719] - Quote
I thought EVE was supposed to be harsh.
Let's pretend for a sec that the usual suspects are actually right about high sec being safer than null (demonstrably false). If that were the case, why should the rewards be better in null? It's ******* harsh, remember? You want the freedom to be a douche, you pay the price for it. You work harder and fight over scraps.
The easy money should be in the safer places.
Why do you people have it so backwards in your twisted little minds? There should be no incursions in null and very few in low sec. CCP should move level fives back into high sec as well.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1771
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 17:11:08 -
[720] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote: At the end of the day, there are ways to stop something you don't like in this game. "Just do it!"
There aren't ways to stop it. Sure you can spend a few billion trying to gank them at a huge loss but why would people waste their time to do that? Unlike Freighters these ships travel in gangs with large tanks, logi support, often boosters and can open fire right back at you. Ganking doesn't work on actual fleets. Ganking is done for profit, something the people of highsec cant seem to grasp. Killing the mom early was done for a while but ended because again, where is the gain for the people ending it early? Its not fun and it doesn't get you anything worth more than keeping it alive. You cant wardec these people as they are protected by NPC corps and you cant attck them in any normal way due to concord protection. No, when something is out of whack in terms of reward the only viable way to deal with it is to close the abuse, something CCP has been forced to do many times in the past. Since you are not willing to beat them (incursion runners) at their own game (getting their sites so the income goes to you instead of them), then I guess you will have to wait for CCP to deem it important enough to change something about it. Which can be anywhere between the june release and the end of time. All good, folks like me will make a fortune off the unbalanced things till then lol. This is the problem with people, they can't be honest enough or objective enough about things to call it like it is. While I don't like a lot about Goon types, at least they are honest about unbalanced things while at the same time they are exploiting them, and I do the same thing which is why I have both a incursion alt and a faction warfare alt. What I no longer have are alts to experience any substantial risk while filling my space wallets with space bucks
If you do nothing about it except keep running them without any change, why do you expect CCP to not just let you run them without any change?
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1772
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 17:21:00 -
[721] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:ashley Eoner wrote: You need ONE carrier one dreadnaught and a couple other ships. Bammo +800m an hour with less effort than incursions.
You could in theory do it without the carrier but it'd require a lot more effort.
One carrier is right. And that one Carrier is in WORMHOLE space not protected by CONCORD, in space where the content can be exhausted (you can't keep wormhole pve going like you can an incursion). If someone is bold enough to take or build a capital ship in unprotected space in order to make money, that is the game working as intended. That's risk/reward done right. Why are you still posting here instead of beating the war drums to motivate people to run them to the very limit to force CCP to do something about something oh so broken? Every 15 minutes wasted here is at least 1 site not getting run. Because it's not that important. I've done my 'virtual civic duty' in pointing out the gross imbalance (that i'm benefitting from). A gross imbalance that helped thwart CCPs plans during this change(because rather than 'fight for better space', people just left for greener, more high-secy pastures), and will do so again when Fozziesov comes. CCP is literally wasting development time implementing a new Sov system that relies on PVE for defensive bonuses when it's stupid to do pve in null unless you're a renter or some kind of scrub. CCP changes it, the game gets better. CCP doesn't change it, all good as far as I'm concerned, I adapted to the imbalances in 2011 after the event I just linked. But it is crappy suboptimal game design no matter how much you try to deny it. Sorry if you can't understand this, but that a 'you' issue, not a 'me' issue.
You keep posting in a 36 pages thread about something not important. I think you need to revise who does not understand what is happening. I'm asking people to prove how broken it is and the only answer I get is a link to a video of 1 dude multi boxing VG sites, you telling me you will keep getting rich off of it and one answer about how the already in place soft cap would prevent it from breaking anything. None of those 3 answer proved anything beside that you are willing to adapt to whatever is the best investment of your time, some people are willing to put effort into multiboxing them and MAYBE it's not that big of a deal because there are caps on it.
If that's the best proof people can muster, it's no wonder CCP don't nerf such imbalance faster... |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
277
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 17:32:14 -
[722] - Quote
Level 4 should've been moved to Lowsec... back in 2009!
Train went choo-choo, and they've added more ISK faucets to highsec, albeit a very interesting one at first.
At least the ISBotter problem is being partially handled in this regard, because otherwise it would've been the end of EvE further down the line.
/bitter
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
|
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
527
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 17:35:28 -
[723] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I thought EVE was supposed to be harsh. Let's pretend for a sec that the usual suspects are actually right about high sec being safer than null (demonstrably false). If that were the case, why should the rewards be better in null? It's ******* harsh, remember? You want the freedom to be a douche, you pay the price for it. You work harder and fight over scraps. The easy money should be in the safer places. Why do you people have it so backwards in your twisted little minds? There should be no incursions in null and very few in low sec. CCP should move level fives back into high sec as well. Mr Epeen
i usually have to agree with what you say as you usually talk sense but i dont know what happened here. why put effort in to fight over scraps your idea just kills eve
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1772
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 17:41:01 -
[724] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:I thought EVE was supposed to be harsh. Let's pretend for a sec that the usual suspects are actually right about high sec being safer than null (demonstrably false). If that were the case, why should the rewards be better in null? It's ******* harsh, remember? You want the freedom to be a douche, you pay the price for it. You work harder and fight over scraps. The easy money should be in the safer places. Why do you people have it so backwards in your twisted little minds? There should be no incursions in null and very few in low sec. CCP should move level fives back into high sec as well. Mr Epeen i usually have to agree with what you say as you usually talk sense but i dont know what happened here. why put effort in to fight over scraps your idea just kills eve
And yet, people are willing to "play" hours in TiDi for this "crap" space.
I'm not even gonna try to make it out to be better than high-sec but it sure has enough value for people to endure this in the name of a space flag... |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
76
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 17:48:13 -
[725] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:I thought EVE was supposed to be harsh. Let's pretend for a sec that the usual suspects are actually right about high sec being safer than null (demonstrably false). If that were the case, why should the rewards be better in null? It's ******* harsh, remember? You want the freedom to be a douche, you pay the price for it. You work harder and fight over scraps. The easy money should be in the safer places. Why do you people have it so backwards in your twisted little minds? There should be no incursions in null and very few in low sec. CCP should move level fives back into high sec as well. Mr Epeen i usually have to agree with what you say as you usually talk sense but i dont know what happened here. why put effort in to fight over scraps your idea just kills eve And yet, people are willing to "play" hours in TiDi for this "crap" space. I'm not even gonna try to make it out to be better than high-sec but it sure has enough value for people to endure this in the name of a space flag...
People went to Antarctica to plant their flag! Never underestimate the desire of people to suffer to extremes to say "mine", or "I was there first".
edit: what did Kennedy say? GÇ£We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard." |
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 18:38:40 -
[726] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote: At the end of the day, there are ways to stop something you don't like in this game. "Just do it!"
There aren't ways to stop it. Sure you can spend a few billion trying to gank them at a huge loss but why would people waste their time to do that? Unlike Freighters these ships travel in gangs with large tanks, logi support, often boosters and can open fire right back at you. Ganking doesn't work on actual fleets. Ganking is done for profit, something the people of highsec cant seem to grasp. Killing the mom early was done for a while but ended because again, where is the gain for the people ending it early? Its not fun and it doesn't get you anything worth more than keeping it alive. You cant wardec these people as they are protected by NPC corps and you cant attck them in any normal way due to concord protection. No, when something is out of whack in terms of reward the only viable way to deal with it is to close the abuse, something CCP has been forced to do many times in the past.
I still don't see how the reward is out of whack. It took a few months for people to become proficient at incursions, and even then, that's not the majority of runners. I'm sure there are plenty of people who aren't pushing 200 mil a hour because it takes a team of people who actually know what they're doing to even get that accomplished on an individual level. If anything, it's spot on. Incentive enough to make loners group up, but not enough to get everyone on board. After all, someone else earlier said that like a crushingly small percentage of players are actually benefiting from it to its maximum. Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish. Because while they will be hurt by the nerf, people who weren't running them at the same efficiency, for whatever reasons, will be hurt more and there are a lot more people that operate at non-optimal efficiency than there are. I know I can make a lot more isk/hr out in null or wh space, but I only ever go out to these places for visits. Never to stay. Because at the end of the day, I actually gain less because of people who are bloodthirsty. I don't come on the forums whining to CCP that they should make null safer. I just learn to either deal with it or live with it. Because at the end of the day, it's not a big deal.
I feel like incursions aren't a big deal. There is risk, the problem is people know how to get around it now. In the beginning people were dying left and right, but that's going to be the nature of PvE. Never mind the fact that entry to 200 million isk/hr is protected by a barrier that requires some experience playing the game, isk, and skill points. For people to profit from incursions the way an elite group can requires an investment in those three things. More importantly, it requires a competent fleet. Just because the game is easy for some doesn't mean it is for the majority. Balance should be made around the majority and not as a personal attack to a successful minority. This is why I stated that this entire topic stinks with an agenda.
It really isn't that big of a deal and you admitted there are ways to disrupt it. It's just not worth the effort. So, in turn, you go to CCP. A lot of things CCP has changed in the past was arguably wrong because the changes were at the request of people arguing over what is and isn't broken. There definitely have been changes that were needed, but there have also been a lot due to knee jerk reactions based on forum complaints. You should know what I mean.
Don't make the game less enjoyable for others because you don't like it man. And for what it's worth, I don't run incursions but I do read up on them. Not the same thing obviously, but if there was a true imbalance, I would have felt it by now surely. Things are more affordable than ever now and the only thing that matters in its inflation is plex. Because that's something a minority can influence through obscene income. But at the end of the day, there are only so many uses for them and only so many ships an individual will purchase. After their wants have been fulfilled, their influence on the markets drops significantly. But that's assuming incursions are 'obscene' in the first place. I think they're spot on. You guys out in null could have cease-fires where you get together and do incursions, but don't because of reasons. Regardless of whatever those reasons may be, that doesn't give you the right to complain about people who do it in High-sec to counter the risk that's only there because of other capsuleers.
Yet, at the same time, there are plenty of people who part-take in risk-less predatory actions and receive great bounties for it. More than any individual incursion runner will earn in a week. But here we are, talking about how a group of competent pilots who had to make a large initial investment and cooperate together to turn incursions into something profitable. Where as, I can jump in a destroyer with three buddies and make the incursion runners jealous when we scan a big catch down the pipes and camp for him at the star gate a few systems down and effortlessly, with extremely minor investments, make billions. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10905
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:01:00 -
[727] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I thought EVE was supposed to be harsh.
Let's pretend for a sec that the usual suspects are actually right about high sec being safer than null (demonstrably false).
ok, I know you as someone with a wrid way of thinking, even someone who doesn't have a close relationship with the abilty to tell the truth even.
But I never knew you as stupid. You know for a fact you can't demonstrate that. I challenge you to do so right here and right now.
Quote: If that were the case, why should the rewards be better in null? It's ******* harsh, remember? You want the freedom to be a douche, you pay the price for it. You work harder and fight over scraps.
The easy money should be in the safer places.
There it is. Prejudice. The idea that someone, people who play outside high sec are somehow 'douches' for shooting at each other in a video game that has lots and lots of guns in it. All prejudice is based on an outlandish worldview, and this one is yours.
The problem with such bias is that it warps perception. People who know what they are doing aren't 'fighting over scraps'. We are in high sec running incursions, in low sec blitzing lvl 5s in 2 minutes with carrier, or in FW spamming missions in bombers.
We're also on these forums telling you (the people uninterested in good game design) that we are doing this things. These things instead of doing what, in a better environment, we would be doing: risking expensive ships in null to make isk, which in turn would create content for others in null AND create plenty of space in high sec pve for high sec people who want that.
But hey, keep with the short sighted defense of a status quo you don't understand as you are probably not a PVE player anyways. I'm sure our wallets will continue to think you.
Quote:Why do you people have it so backwards in your twisted little minds? There should be no incursions in null and very few in low sec. CCP should move level fives back into high sec as well. Mr Epeen
lvl 5s in high sec was a BUG. Null incursions are useless and low ones only slightly less so. None of that is the point.
The point is that CCP has never come out and said "we don't believe in the concept of high risk equals higher reward anymore". Until they do, many of us will advocate for a return to a proper balance.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10905
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:02:56 -
[728] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:I thought EVE was supposed to be harsh. Let's pretend for a sec that the usual suspects are actually right about high sec being safer than null (demonstrably false). If that were the case, why should the rewards be better in null? It's ******* harsh, remember? You want the freedom to be a douche, you pay the price for it. You work harder and fight over scraps. The easy money should be in the safer places. Why do you people have it so backwards in your twisted little minds? There should be no incursions in null and very few in low sec. CCP should move level fives back into high sec as well. Mr Epeen i usually have to agree with what you say as you usually talk sense but i dont know what happened here. why put effort in to fight over scraps your idea just kills eve And yet, people are willing to "play" hours in TiDi for this "crap" space. I'm not even gonna try to make it out to be better than high-sec but it sure has enough value for people to endure this in the name of a space flag...
Yes, there is value in gaining space to rent to others while you go about the real business elsewhere lol. People fighting in tidi aren't doing so for isk, they are doing so because they are playing a video game and taking space from others is fun.
You can rationalize all you want, but you're smarter than this Frosty.
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Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:14:57 -
[729] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: The point is that CCP has never come out and said "we don't believe in the concept of high risk equals higher reward anymore". Until they do, many of us will advocate for a return to a proper balance.
Fair enough.
Maybe it's my capitalistic mind, but I view the game differently from that because of past changes CCP has already made. Words mean nothing to me. Actions is what matter, and CCP, through actions, have demonstrated that they do not believe in that concept.
That's my view on the subject. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who views it like that too. Shoot, I'd go out and say a lot of people hold a similar view and don't even realize it. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10905
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:15:37 -
[730] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote: At the end of the day, there are ways to stop something you don't like in this game. "Just do it!"
There aren't ways to stop it. Sure you can spend a few billion trying to gank them at a huge loss but why would people waste their time to do that? Unlike Freighters these ships travel in gangs with large tanks, logi support, often boosters and can open fire right back at you. Ganking doesn't work on actual fleets. Ganking is done for profit, something the people of highsec cant seem to grasp. Killing the mom early was done for a while but ended because again, where is the gain for the people ending it early? Its not fun and it doesn't get you anything worth more than keeping it alive. You cant wardec these people as they are protected by NPC corps and you cant attck them in any normal way due to concord protection. No, when something is out of whack in terms of reward the only viable way to deal with it is to close the abuse, something CCP has been forced to do many times in the past. Since you are not willing to beat them (incursion runners) at their own game (getting their sites so the income goes to you instead of them), then I guess you will have to wait for CCP to deem it important enough to change something about it. Which can be anywhere between the june release and the end of time. All good, folks like me will make a fortune off the unbalanced things till then lol. This is the problem with people, they can't be honest enough or objective enough about things to call it like it is. While I don't like a lot about Goon types, at least they are honest about unbalanced things while at the same time they are exploiting them, and I do the same thing which is why I have both a incursion alt and a faction warfare alt. What I no longer have are alts to experience any substantial risk while filling my space wallets with space bucks If you do nothing about it except keep running them without any change, why do you expect CCP to not just let you run them without any change?
I don't expect anyone to do anything. I'm pointing out a game altering imbalance (one anyone could see for themselves if they took the time to). I'm good either way , but as a video game player I could still wish for better game design. And fixes (not necessarily nerfs or buffs) would make lots of things work better.
What distresses me is seeing something in game/on forums that happens all the time in real life; people are so short sighted that 'not so great' things persist (then later on they have the nerve to complain about things that they were too short sighted to fix in the past lol).
|
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10905
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:24:11 -
[731] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: The point is that CCP has never come out and said "we don't believe in the concept of high risk equals higher reward anymore". Until they do, many of us will advocate for a return to a proper balance.
Fair enough. Maybe it's my capitalistic mind, but I view the game differently from that because of past changes CCP has already made. Words mean nothing to me. Actions is what matter, and CCP, through actions, have demonstrated that they do not believe in that concept. That's my view on the subject. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who views it like that too. Shoot, I'd go out and say a lot of people hold a similar view and don't even realize it.
If they don't believe in the concept anymore, why are the spending actual money (in the form of actual development time) doing things outside of high sec? Why are there no lvl 5s, or DED 10/10s, or wormhole sites in high sec? Why are there only 2 "pirate" faction connected LP stores in high sec (Thukker and SOE) instead of all of them? Why do low and null incursions theoretically pay more.
And why aren't you considering the fact that, rather than intentionally doing an about face on risk/reward/ CCP simply isn't verey good at PVE and made some balancing mistakes? They are the exact same people who brought up Dominion Sov, Super Capitals and the current Ishtar.
If a pvp focused company can get pvp balance so incredibly Fubar'd as the above, how can you have such extreme confidence in their PVE decisions lol? |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1774
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:37:22 -
[732] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:I thought EVE was supposed to be harsh. Let's pretend for a sec that the usual suspects are actually right about high sec being safer than null (demonstrably false). If that were the case, why should the rewards be better in null? It's ******* harsh, remember? You want the freedom to be a douche, you pay the price for it. You work harder and fight over scraps. The easy money should be in the safer places. Why do you people have it so backwards in your twisted little minds? There should be no incursions in null and very few in low sec. CCP should move level fives back into high sec as well. Mr Epeen i usually have to agree with what you say as you usually talk sense but i dont know what happened here. why put effort in to fight over scraps your idea just kills eve And yet, people are willing to "play" hours in TiDi for this "crap" space. I'm not even gonna try to make it out to be better than high-sec but it sure has enough value for people to endure this in the name of a space flag... Yes, there is value in gaining space to rent to others while you go about the real business elsewhere lol. People fighting in tidi aren't doing so for isk, they are doing so because they are playing a video game and taking space from others is fun. You can rationalize all you want, but you're smarter than this Frosty.
CCP will "balance" along what the player base perceive. Fighters getting bonus from drone mods was a perfect example of that. Nobody cared about it when it was announced because everybody was so used to carrier being **** at killing small stuff. Giving a tracking and damage bonus to somthing that can't track worth **** can't be broken. Then people actually saw what it really meant in the grand scheme of things and started suing it. Then some people of course got on the recieving end of this and decided "I can do it too!". It's not until it was much more prevalant that any call to nerf assist ever got traction because everybody was always assuming carrier assigned fighter were borderline worthless. Every time they had seen it it was crap. Until they got volled' off grid a few time and realised it was not a fluke of every stars aligning against them. Fast forward and carriers and supers start assisting fighters much more often and what was not seen as an issue actaully pop out with much more player getting affected.
Is incursion income too good? More than likely but the bandwagon is not getting any fatter because people can't be arsed to run them anyway. If people cared enough, getting in a fleet would be much more of a hassle because you can bet people would be running them. Many player already have enough ISK to live by for god know how long. Some don't even want to put any effort and sell PLEXes. Traders make mountains because the relatively small amount of competitors keep the margins in some niche good. Mission runners can't be arsed to have to follow order from an FC and/or won't accept to rely on others for their income. Some people live by with what null will earn them so they won't run incursion even if it's better isk/time.
"It's too good" is completely relative and we currently have the proof that it's not that huge of a deal because we see one thread once a month maybe about it and it's always the same 3 camp bickering over it. "It's too good", "it's fine" and "stop posting and prove your claim" are posting more and more with longer and more precise wording of their argument but no one budge from it's current position. The statu quo was never threatened during those 36 pages because nobody will actually try to prove what they claim. Mostly because it's impossible to prove but also because :effort:.
You can say I rationalise over stuff to make my point but at the end of the day, incursion, just like trading, is only a klondike when you are actually doing it right and we won't ever tap it out because the very vast majority can't be bothered with it. More people actually care about owning "worthless" space than they do about the 200+ mill income available in high sec.
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Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:41:09 -
[733] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: The point is that CCP has never come out and said "we don't believe in the concept of high risk equals higher reward anymore". Until they do, many of us will advocate for a return to a proper balance.
Fair enough. Maybe it's my capitalistic mind, but I view the game differently from that because of past changes CCP has already made. Words mean nothing to me. Actions is what matter, and CCP, through actions, have demonstrated that they do not believe in that concept. That's my view on the subject. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who views it like that too. Shoot, I'd go out and say a lot of people hold a similar view and don't even realize it. If they don't believe in the concept anymore, why are the spending actual money (in the form of actual development time) doing things outside of high sec? Why are there no lvl 5s, or DED 10/10s, or wormhole sites in high sec? Why are there only 2 "pirate" faction connected LP stores in high sec (Thukker and SOE) instead of all of them? Why do low and null incursions theoretically pay more. And why aren't you considering the fact that, rather than intentionally doing an about face on risk/reward/ CCP simply isn't verey good at PVE and made some balancing mistakes? They are the exact same people who brought up Dominion Sov, Super Capitals and the current Ishtar. If a pvp focused company can get pvp balance so incredibly Fubar'd as the above, how can you have such extreme confidence in their PVE decisions lol? CCP has more than one target audience weather they realize it or not. The addition of incursions is very much evidence of what I said, otherwise it wouldn't be such a hot topic with risk/reward minded people. You can't just assume CCP makes decisions irrationally.
Also, I never claimed to have confidence in the PvE decisions. If incursions were up to me, I would have made them have a set range of sites that would spawn in a system from the second it popped up. Once the sites are cleared, the system would be safe once again and impossible to make isk from that system via incursion activity, but we have what we have and it's been that way for a while. What CCP should do is create something that is well-balanced and draws more people in via incentives. Weather it's isk, goods, or pure fun. Once they get the political heat off of incursions, that's when they should 'fix' them. Until then it'll be like alcohol prohibition. You can't give something to someone and then take it back. It makes you a ****. CCP as a company shouldn't be doing that when their average numbers of online players have been going down.
Pvp in this game has always been a joke. Webs, scrams, ecm, and raw brute force almost always trumps finesse (player skill). There's a reason why some people know the tide of the battle before they undock. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15831
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:51:39 -
[734] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish.
FW income was savagely nerfed because just ten people figured out how to make a boatload of cash.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:53:48 -
[735] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish. FW income was savagely nerfed because just ten people figured out how to make a boatload of cash.
Apparently, it makes more isk than incursions.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1774
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:55:02 -
[736] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish. FW income was savagely nerfed because just ten people figured out how to make a boatload of cash.
It got nerfed also because they pushed it and people were jumping on the bandwagon.
Why aren't people jumping on the incursion billionaire train like they were on the FW billionaire train? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15831
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:55:37 -
[737] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish. FW income was savagely nerfed because just ten people figured out how to make a boatload of cash. Apparently, it makes more isk than incursions.
They made several trillion in two days.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
280
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:56:47 -
[738] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish. FW income was savagely nerfed because just ten people figured out how to make a boatload of cash. It got nerfed also because they pushed it and people were jumping on the bandwagon. Why aren't people jumping on the incursion billionaire train like they were on the FW billionaire train?
Because the ISBotter train went off the rails already, but apparently it can still be done with similar efficiency in Vanguard sites, as presented by a few people.
Interesting to note, that 93% of all Incursion payouts were/are in Hisec.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15833
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:56:55 -
[739] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Why aren't people jumping on the incursion billionaire train like they were on the FW billionaire train?
They are.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:58:47 -
[740] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish. FW income was savagely nerfed because just ten people figured out how to make a boatload of cash. Apparently, it makes more isk than incursions. They made several trillion in two days.
Well damn, I should have hopped on that. |
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10907
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 19:59:01 -
[741] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You can say I rationalize over stuff to make my point but at the end of the day, incursion, just like trading, is only a klondike when you are actually doing it right and we won't ever tap it out because the very vast majority can't be bothered with it. More people actually care about owning "worthless" space than they do about the 200+ mill income available in high sec.
And you just did it again lol. Somehow, if EVERYONE isn't doing it, it's unbalanced. Someone should tell armed robbers that in real life lol. "Hey dude, yea robbery is wrong, but since most people don't do it, it's all good" Not saying high sec incursions are a crime, just unbalanced.
If a game has a core concept, a part of the game violating that concept ,no matter how 'small' that part is (and incursions may be small in terms of participants, but that 10 trillion isk per month they generate when the 10s of thousands of mission and anomaly runners only generate 30 trillion is not small) is very simply wrong.
Imbalances have unintended consequences. In this case, the pve imbalances have led to an actual waste of development time, because CCP has tried to develop things that tie in to and rely on PVE but the existence of better options (incursions, fw missions, high sec lvl 4s in some cases) means that the thing they developed didn't work right.
You are actually advocating for this kind of mess and wasted development. You don't understand that you are, but you are. And you aren't alone, a lot of the people in this thread always think that describing these imbalances are some veiled move from us (the whistleblowers) to get ccp to hand us more imaginary space money. It's the stupidest thing a person can think, because there is nothing stopping us from making alts and grabbing the unbalanced income ourselves, which a whole lot of use do, leaving null sec to the rents scrubs who don't know any better.
As gamers, our primary concern should be good gameplay not imaginary money. Good gameplay in this regard is having to risk much to gain much.
High sec shouldn't be unlivable, even for veterans, BUT People like me should be FORCED into null, low or wormhole space to make the kind of isk I'm making right this second (i'm in an incursion fleet right now, Brybier is beautiful this time a year). When I started playing you had to take risk to make above lvl 4 mission income.
How stupid is it that now my BEST options for sustained high level isk making are "do boring high sec incursion" or "do stupid easy minmatar militia mission in a freaking bomber"?
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10907
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:00:31 -
[742] - Quote
GankYou wrote:
Interesting to note, that 93% of all Incursion payouts were/are in Hisec.
So much for those guys talking about low and null incursions lol.
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
280
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:05:30 -
[743] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:GankYou wrote:
Interesting to note, that 93% of all Incursion payouts were/are in Hisec.
So much for those guys talking about low and null incursions lol.
It is old data, though - from 2012
https://twitter.com/CCP_Diagoras/status/165439199904931840
Quote: CCP Diagoras GÇÅ@CCP_Diagoras In Jan 2012, 91.63% of Incursion payouts were in High sec, 3.31% low sec, 5.07% null sec.
Here's more recent data, 2014 - Top Sinks & Faucets - http://i.imgur.com/wybDyAB.png
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2hsqEvPGWQ
There is no disambiguation on location, however - probably to keep forum PvP and rabblrabble to a minimum.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1774
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:06:36 -
[744] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish. FW income was savagely nerfed because just ten people figured out how to make a boatload of cash. Apparently, it makes more isk than incursions. They made several trillion in two days. Well damn, I should have hopped on that.
Go run incursion while they are still easy ISK or you will miss out!!! |
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:09:20 -
[745] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: Go run incursion while they are still easy ISK or you will miss out!!!
I lost close to a billion the other day and made more in one day not doing incursions I'm fine, thanks. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2125
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:13:03 -
[746] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:GankYou wrote:
Interesting to note, that 93% of all Incursion payouts were/are in Hisec.
So much for those guys talking about low and null incursions lol. It is old data, though - from 2012 https://twitter.com/CCP_Diagoras/status/165439199904931840 Quote: CCP Diagoras GÇÅ@CCP_Diagoras In Jan 2012, 91.63% of Incursion payouts were in High sec, 3.31% low sec, 5.07% null sec.
Here's more recent data, 2014 - Top Sinks & Faucets - http://i.imgur.com/wybDyAB.png Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2hsqEvPGWQ There is no disambiguation on location, however - probably to keep forum PvP and rabblrabble to a minimum. Bounties are self-explanatory, Commodities could be Overseer's Effects from DeD complexes and WH Blue loot. Just to note, this was at the very least before the buff to Null Vanguards. And possibly the data was also before the nerf to Highsec Incursions that occurred, though I believe the post was after the Nerf if I remember correctly. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5581
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:15:35 -
[747] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Nerfing something because a small percentage of players somehow managed to succeed in unforeseen circumstances is rude and selfish. FW income was savagely nerfed because just ten people figured out how to make a boatload of cash. It got nerfed also because they pushed it and people were jumping on the bandwagon. Why aren't people jumping on the incursion billionaire train like they were on the FW billionaire train? Because the ISBotter train went off the rails already, but apparently it can still be done with similar efficiency in Vanguard sites, as presented by a few people. I know you are super butthurt about multiboxers, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to ISBoxer there. This is what happens when you resub to a game you haven;t played in years and have an opinion on everything. Go and learn how to play eve, then come back and we'll listen to your opinions then, k?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
280
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:15:46 -
[748] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:GankYou wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:GankYou wrote:
Interesting to note, that 93% of all Incursion payouts were/are in Hisec.
So much for those guys talking about low and null incursions lol. It is old data, though - from 2012 https://twitter.com/CCP_Diagoras/status/165439199904931840 Quote: CCP Diagoras GÇÅ@CCP_Diagoras In Jan 2012, 91.63% of Incursion payouts were in High sec, 3.31% low sec, 5.07% null sec.
Here's more recent data, 2014 - Top Sinks & Faucets - http://i.imgur.com/wybDyAB.png Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2hsqEvPGWQ There is no disambiguation on location, however - probably to keep forum PvP and rabblrabble to a minimum. Bounties are self-explanatory, Commodities could be Overseer's Effects from DeD complexes and WH Blue loot. Just to note, this was at the very least before the buff to Null Vanguards. And possibly the data was also before the nerf to Highsec Incursions that occurred, though I believe the post was after the Nerf if I remember correctly.
Well, that's what we have to work with - it's either this, or charts with no scales.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1774
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:16:51 -
[749] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
How stupid is it that now my BEST options for sustained high level isk making are "do boring high sec incursion" or "do stupid easy minmatar militia mission in a freaking bomber"?
*Point at game change history*
I don't know about you but I think you need to prove them more. Obviously CCP don't know it's happening yet.
Or they don't care about something being "wrong" in their game right now... |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
280
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 20:49:12 -
[750] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Eve was founded on risk=reward
It was a neat idea that never worked. CCP never really made anything for it so you could almost say it's not a DEV supported idea.
And yet, all resource acquisition from Highend base minerals, to bottleneck T2 materials along with T3 still do operate under such a concept. It has been so for as long as I can remember.
But then again, these resources have to find their ISK, or rather the other way around - the ISK inflows minus sinks, ideally, have to be matched to the amount of procured resources per unit of time - and during most of 2014 that was 25-30 Trillion ISK per month looking to park itself.
I'd love to see a lot more of that kind of data.
If nothing is changing with respect to the topic at hand, then it can be safely assumed that the metric that they have says the system is balanced, because apart from Incursions there is no active ISK incomes in Highsec.
And no, most of the commodities on the LP stores of both FW and Lvl4s are a net sink in the economy - they don't print ISK.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
76
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 21:02:03 -
[751] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Eve was founded on risk=reward
It was a neat idea that never worked. CCP never really made anything for it so you could almost say it's not a DEV supported idea. And yet, all resource acquisition from Highend base minerals, to bottleneck T2 materials along with T3 still do operate under such a concept. It has been so for as long as I can remember. But then again, these resources have to find their ISK, or rather the other way around - the ISK inflows minus sinks, ideally, have to be matched to the amount of procured resources per unit of time - and during most of 2014 that was 25-30 Trillion ISK per month looking to park itself. I'd love to see a lot more of that kind of data. If nothing is changing with respect to the topic at hand, then it can be safely assumed that the metric that they have says the system is balanced, because apart from Lvl 4 measly bounties & Agent reward, along with Incursions there is no active ISK incomes in Highsec, and without active ISK incomes, the transfer of wealth from Highsec to entities who control the aforementioned resources would be rather disastrous, since Highsec doesn't have many resources that the rest of New Eden needs. And no, most of the commodities on the LP stores of both FW and Lvl4s are a net sink in the economy - they don't print ISK.
Damn, and here I was hoping destruction of assets was the #1 Isk sink... |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
282
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 21:05:30 -
[752] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:GankYou wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Eve was founded on risk=reward
It was a neat idea that never worked. CCP never really made anything for it so you could almost say it's not a DEV supported idea. And yet, all resource acquisition from Highend base minerals, to bottleneck T2 materials along with T3 still do operate under such a concept. It has been so for as long as I can remember. But then again, these resources have to find their ISK, or rather the other way around - the ISK inflows minus sinks, ideally, have to be matched to the amount of procured resources per unit of time - and during most of 2014 that was 25-30 Trillion ISK per month looking to park itself. I'd love to see a lot more of that kind of data. If nothing is changing with respect to the topic at hand, then it can be safely assumed that the metric that they have says the system is balanced, because apart from Lvl 4 measly bounties & Agent reward, along with Incursions there is no active ISK incomes in Highsec, and without active ISK incomes, the transfer of wealth from Highsec to entities who control the aforementioned resources would be rather disastrous, since Highsec doesn't have many resources that the rest of New Eden needs. And no, most of the commodities on the LP stores of both FW and Lvl4s are a net sink in the economy - they don't print ISK. Damn, and here I was hoping destruction of assets was the #1 Isk sink...
A sink is something that disappears ISK in its entirety out of the system - http://i.imgur.com/wybDyAB.png
Taxes, Skillbooks, BPOs, LP store costs.
Any ISK that is exchanged on the player markets is just its healthy breathing through the economy, as the net doesn't change on such transactions, apart from Sales Tax & Broker's Fee deductions, of course.
CONCORD here acts as a central bank system with many regional banks, essentially expanding credit to anyone - just like banks had done on sub-prime loans.
You all know what happens to asset prices when everyone gets the credit they desire.
CCP have to be applauded at their efforts here, especially during the ISBotter period.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
76
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 21:20:04 -
[753] - Quote
GankYou wrote:A sink is something that disappears ISK in its entirety out of the system - http://i.imgur.com/wybDyAB.png Taxes, Skillbooks, BPOs, LP store costs. Any ISK that is exchanged on the player markets is just its healthy breathing through the economy, as the net doesn't change on such transactions, apart from Sales Tax & Broker's Fee deductions, of course. CONCORD here acts as a central bank system with many regional banks, essentially expanding credit to anyone - just like banks had done on sub-prime loans. You all know what happens to asset prices when everyone gets the credit they desire. CCP have to be applauded at their efforts here, especially during the ISBotter period.
Understood, it doesn't change the money supply when **** gets blown up Also why LP stores are an isk sink.
As to the imbalance of more faucet then sink, would that likely be attributed to hoarding?
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
282
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 21:28:31 -
[754] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:GankYou wrote:A sink is something that disappears ISK in its entirety out of the system - http://i.imgur.com/wybDyAB.png Taxes, Skillbooks, BPOs, LP store costs. Any ISK that is exchanged on the player markets is just its healthy breathing through the economy, as the net doesn't change on such transactions, apart from Sales Tax & Broker's Fee deductions, of course. CONCORD here acts as a central bank system with many regional banks, essentially expanding credit to anyone - just like banks had done on sub-prime loans. You all know what happens to asset prices when everyone gets the credit they desire. CCP have to be applauded at their efforts here, especially during the ISBotter period. Also why LP stores are an isk sink.
Because, you are essentially paying the NPC Corporation your own ISK to get an item that is perhaps worth a lot more to a player who does not have have neither LP Points or Access to said store.
Let's say you've paid 25,000,000 ISK and 37,500 LP for a Police Pursuit Comet SKIN - that 25 mil is forever gone, the 37,500 LP can be considered a resource that is now built into the possible valuations of the SKIN, which you can sell on the player market for, let's say 75 million ISK.
You've paid 25 mil LP store fee, plus Sales & Broker's tax to get this item onto the player market - net monetary supply has gone down in both transactions.
Quote:As to the imbalance of more faucet then sink, would that likely be attributed to hoarding?
Please expand on the topic further - what do you mean by hoarding?
I could give you an example where people with 20 ISBotter accounts were literally printing ISK, i.e. running Incursions solo, with there being no consumption, or new resources to match the new ISK inflow - just one person and his other 19 artificially-generated entities.
That was indeed inflationary - in the price of PLEX first and foremost.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
5581
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 21:30:50 -
[755] - Quote
GankYou wrote:CCP have to be applauded at their efforts here, especially during the ISBotter period. Give it a rest, you weren't even here.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
76
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 21:33:12 -
[756] - Quote
GankYou wrote: Please expand on the topic further - what do you mean by hoarding?
Edited my post. With extra isk being added every day, we would have rampant inflation. So where is all that extra isk going, if not into the market?
By hoarding, I mean that people are saving it, and not spending it. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
286
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 21:39:50 -
[757] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:GankYou wrote: Please expand on the topic further - what do you mean by hoarding?
Edited my post. With extra isk being added every day, we would have rampant inflation. So where is all that extra isk going, if not into the market?
That is indeed a very interesting question, and as I've said, this ISK ideally needs to be "matched" to the rate of resource acquisition, such as ores, moon materials, salvage, various loot like Deadspace/Faction/Meta modules, Pirate ship BPCs - resources in other words.
Quote:By hoarding, I mean that people are saving it, and not spending it.
That is indeed, in part, the case but the resources are still being acquired, and are always there for you to purchase - they haven't disappeared. The general wealth of the EvE players can then be said to be increasing, on both sides of the equation.
Therefore, we need a VERY, VERY Good War right about now - to get the Animal Spirits excited, and to make people spend their ISK and explode gloriously in spaceships.
Just like the real economy, eh.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10911
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 21:43:09 -
[758] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
How stupid is it that now my BEST options for sustained high level isk making are "do boring high sec incursion" or "do stupid easy minmatar militia mission in a freaking bomber"?
*Point at game change history* I don't know about you but I think you need to prove them more. Obviously CCP don't know it's happening yet. Or they don't care about something being "wrong" in their game right now...
OMG, you mean CCP would knowingly let and unbalanced thing stay unbalanced without changing it for a long period of time?
That's totally unprecedented....except for the 4 years it took them to fix the high sec lvl 5s but (that they knew existed right after the patch that broke them), and 6 YEARS of Dominion SOV and ISHTARS, and tech3s in general, and super capital ships, and the years of overpowered NANO ships we endured, and unscannable ships that used to dominate low sec exploration and faction warfare missions etc etc.
Nope, no precedent for this at all, because CCP has always balanced things just a soon as they demonstrated they needed fixing instead of getting around to it when they could. Now if you'll excuse me, I think I'll go run some totally balanced and not at all forgotten COSMOS missions. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
77
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 21:43:16 -
[759] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:GankYou wrote: Please expand on the topic further - what do you mean by hoarding?
Edited my post. With extra isk being added every day, we would have rampant inflation. So where is all that extra isk going, if not into the market? That is indeed a very interesting question, and as I've said, this ISK ideally needs to be "matched" to the rate of resource acquisition, such as ores, moon materials, salvage, various loot like Deadspace/Faction/Meta modules, Pirate ship BPCs - resources in other words. Quote:By hoarding, I mean that people are saving it, and not spending it. That is indeed, in part, the case but the resources are still being acquired, and are always there for you to pyrchase - they haven't disappeared. The general wealth of the EvE players can then be said to be increasing, on both sides of the equation. Therefore, we need a VERY, VERY Good War right about now - to get the Animal Spirits excited, and to make people spend their ISK and explode gloriously in spaceships. Just like the real economy, eh.
Agreed |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
287
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 22:08:03 -
[760] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:GankYou wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:GankYou wrote: Please expand on the topic further - what do you mean by hoarding?
Edited my post. With extra isk being added every day, we would have rampant inflation. So where is all that extra isk going, if not into the market? That is indeed a very interesting question, and as I've said, this ISK ideally needs to be "matched" to the rate of resource acquisition, such as ores, moon materials, salvage, various loot like Deadspace/Faction/Meta modules, Pirate ship BPCs - resources in other words. Quote:By hoarding, I mean that people are saving it, and not spending it. That is indeed, in part, the case but the resources are still being acquired, and are always there for you to pyrchase - they haven't disappeared. The general wealth of the EvE players can then be said to be increasing, on both sides of the equation. Therefore, we need a VERY, VERY Good War right about now - to get the Animal Spirits excited, and to make people spend their ISK and explode gloriously in spaceships. Just like the real economy, eh. Agreed
I was also incorrect in stating that Hisec doesn't have many resources that the rest of New Eden needs. Actually, anything from the LP Store can be considered, and indeed actually is, a resource: Federation/Fleet/Navy Frigates, Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Battleships, all Fed/Navy/Fleet ammo, certain (most?) attribute implants, like the +4 Standard, and +5 Improved, All faction modules of the same types.
Some (Most?) Pirate faction Frigate hulls, and Deadspace modules, along with some Pirate faction Cruiser BPCs, and the appropriately-sized Deadspace modules.
Various salvage, included of entities that are not native to Hisec. Ore/Compressed ores had been an export commodity as well, and perhaps will yet retain its position in the long run; Ice for fuel, also, of course.
Although, this wealth is also shared by Lowsec. I tend to view both HS & LS as one unit - the Empire.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
78
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 22:08:36 -
[761] - Quote
Hmmm, (puts on tinfoil hattery)
If I had a theory: I might surmise that CCP (as the Central Bank) likes to sell plexes as it is good for real revenues. A high plex price (in isk) is more incentive for $ purchases. Now who would be the players most likely to take plexes off the market and consume them for game time? Why people with an isk printing mechanic, and accounts to train and maintain.
Ergo, I might come to the conclusion that high-income incursion fleets are deemed 'good for business', and otherwise left to exist as they are. Soft caps limit the overall effect, and if the data can coincide with the faucets of plex consumption, taxes and training... (removes hattery)
...eh, just go out and blow some **** up! |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
287
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 22:19:24 -
[762] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Hmmm, (puts on tinfoil hattery) If I had a theory: I might surmise that CCP (as the Central Bank) likes to sell plexes as it is good for real revenues. A high plex price (in isk) is more incentive for $ purchases. Now who would be the players most likely to take plexes off the market and consume them for game time? Why people with an isk printing mechanic, and accounts to train and maintain. Ergo, I might come to the conclusion that high-income incursion fleets are deemed 'good for business', and otherwise left to exist as they are. Soft caps limit the overall effect, and if the data can coincide with the faucets of plex consumption, taxes and training... (removes hattery) ...eh, just go out and blow some **** up!
Strong beam protection there.
That is/was/will be the case, however there is a question of balance with respect to the shiny 1 bn ISK plex, and further lack of need to purchase another one, if just one billion ISK fulfills the needs of the customers.
It is, of course, more profitable to *cough* let them purchase something loser to 1.66 PLEXes, instead of one, and indeed in the case of rampant deflation - Look at Deadspace and Pirate faction prices - A higher PLEX is not necessarily the most optimum/desired outcome.
With regards to the fleets of consumers of this commodity being driver of everything, do remember the November, 2014 Policy shift,
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2ndrl2/the_end_isboxers
Quote:[GÇô]CCP_FalconCCP Games 152 points 5 months ago
My personal opinion on this question is that I value the integrity of the game, and its overall health more than I value the numbers. I'd rather see 1 person playing with 19 of his friends, than 1 person using software or hardware to play solo while input broadcasting to 20 accounts. EVE is a game based around interaction with others, and the action and reaction that comes from it. Well, that's my personal take on it, at least.
We're all trying to build EvE that will outshine the Glory days of the Second Great EvE war.
P.S. Possibly inappropriate thread for this - but it's all impossibly interconnected: You start with discussing incomes, you get to faucets, which takes you to the greater economy, which takes you back in a full loop.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
79
|
Posted - 2015.05.06 22:44:22 -
[763] - Quote
GankYou wrote:We're all trying to build EvE that will outshine the Glory days of the Second Great EvE war. P.S. Possibly inappropriate thread for this - but it's all impossibly interconnected: You start with discussing incomes, you get to faucets, which takes you to the greater economy, which takes you back in a full loop.
Sometimes you can compromise (balance) and other times you just have to draw a line in the sand.
We want a great game, and at the same time one that endures. Happy 12th birthday EvE |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
272
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 01:27:35 -
[764] - Quote
Let's spin this another way. Pretend we no longer care about the absurdly large elephant in the room that Hi Sec incursions represent to the risk/reward paradigm in the game. Obviously a lot of people care greatly about it, either for selfish reasons or because they actually want to see a healthy New Eden where people take risks, make decisions, and get to reap the consequences for better or worse - interesting game play.
How do you improve available null line member income? I'm not talking about members of huge coalitions, I mean smaller groups who want to experience the new sov system - how do those people pay for their ships, their logistical chain, etc? Huge coalitions are pretty entrenched for the time being, what Fozziesov needs to do is make real estate attractive to own for smaller entities, and that is patently impossible given how much income is both available, accessible, and safe, in Hi Sec relative to null, and incursions are a big part of this. So if we lay off touching the sacred cow/security blanket of incursions, you have to buff null income.
You can't add more rat loot, as that would create more minerals and thus be counter to the aims of their recent null-ore buffs; minerals are supposed to come from people mining, as they would have it. You can't add more rat bounty, as there is too much liquid being generated already. They tried the ESS thing, but that has numerous issues, up to and including the rewards for usage not being high enough. So what's it going to be?
So, ye defenders of sacred cows and huggers of security blankets, how then do you propose forging a new wild west? One of my core tenants when I ran for CSM was ending Hi Sec Incursions - I still stand by this. I also stand by, that if you want a safer Hi Sec, you need to give antagonists something to actually fight and create content over, and until this is done, Hi Sec will remain at the mercy of gankers and Wardeccers, as the rest of null and low is asphyxiated from content because there is no available income there, thus no population. If you actually like Hi Sec, I'm not there to tell you what to do, but if you want it to actually be -safe-, you have to have incentives in other parts of the game, which causes populations to move there, which gives antagonists something interesting to do, which makes the sandbox more vibrant. I'm for a healthy new Eden, and for that to happen, the rewards have to be higher in more dangerous areas of space.
How would you propose then, raising the baseline income in null?
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
99
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 03:04:38 -
[765] - Quote
Vic, fantastic question and thought provoking. But considering how quickly I would expect it to get off topic - it might be best served given its own thread. |
ashley Eoner
472
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 03:17:27 -
[766] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Let's spin this another way. Pretend we no longer care about the absurdly large elephant in the room that Hi Sec incursions represent to the risk/reward paradigm in the game. Obviously a lot of people care greatly about it, either for selfish reasons or because they actually want to see a healthy New Eden where people take risks, make decisions, and get to reap the consequences for better or worse - interesting game play.
How do you improve available null line member income? I'm not talking about members of huge coalitions, I mean smaller groups who want to experience the new sov system - how do those people pay for their ships, their logistical chain, etc? Huge coalitions are pretty entrenched for the time being, what Fozziesov needs to do is make real estate attractive to own for smaller entities, and that is patently impossible given how much income is both available, accessible, and safe, in Hi Sec relative to null, and incursions are a big part of this. So if we lay off touching the sacred cow/security blanket of incursions, you have to buff null income.
You can't add more rat loot, as that would create more minerals and thus be counter to the aims of their recent null-ore buffs; minerals are supposed to come from people mining, as they would have it. You can't add more rat bounty, as there is too much liquid being generated already. They tried the ESS thing, but that has numerous issues, up to and including the rewards for usage not being high enough. So what's it going to be?
So, ye defenders of sacred cows and huggers of security blankets, how then do you propose forging a new wild west? One of my core tenants when I ran for CSM was ending Hi Sec Incursions - I still stand by this. I also stand by, that if you want a safer Hi Sec, you need to give antagonists something to actually fight and create content over, and until this is done, Hi Sec will remain at the mercy of gankers and Wardeccers, as the rest of null and low is asphyxiated from content because there is no available income there, thus no population. If you actually like Hi Sec, I'm not there to tell you what to do, but if you want it to actually be -safe-, you have to have incentives in other parts of the game, which causes populations to move there, which gives antagonists something interesting to do, which makes the sandbox more vibrant. I'm for a healthy new Eden, and for that to happen, the rewards have to be higher in more dangerous areas of space.
How would you propose then, raising the baseline income in null? Highsec incursions are just a distraction. Remove them and the next target will be level 4 missions and on and on. People are wildly overstating their incursion income over any real length of time. You can do the same income level with 4s without all the waiting and down time. Messing with incursion runners via ganks is even easier than mission runners.
The ability to rent systems actually helped the little guys get a foothold in nullsec. I know that on my own I was able to afford the rent of a nice little system out in the middle of nowhere with relatively little effort. The downside of this is that the bigger blocks took even more income away from their members by renting out space that their members should of been using to make isk. Not really sure if there's a possible solution that will work on all fronts. |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1567
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 03:42:57 -
[767] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:If you actually like Hi Sec, I'm not there to tell you what to do, but if you want it to actually be -safe-, you have to have incentives in other parts of the game, which causes populations to move there, which gives antagonists something interesting to do, which makes the sandbox more vibrant. I'm for a healthy new Eden, and for that to happen, the rewards have to be higher in more dangerous areas of space.
How would you propose then, raising the baseline income in null?
First, your framing of the question is complicated by alts. A player can live in nullsec and run incursions in high sec at the same time. Second, the mad ISK/hr and super low risk are only present at the highest level (and even then, Ii'd like to know what the real ISK/hr is when you count travel, converting LP, waiting, etc.--I'm sure it's still good, but probably not as good as the numbers you see thrown around). Warp To Me lose ships regularly, because they take in newbies, have forgiving doctrines, and run smaller sites; ISN don't, because they have veteran pilots in extremely powerful ships running the best.
It's a similar problem in L4s: how do you make them doable by a six-month player's single capsuleer in My First Dominix without making it a cakewalk for a six year player running dual Machariels?
Now, null sec. You're right, this is tough. First, there's income and there's income. No matter how potentially rewarding, peaky, easily interdicted income is worse than steady, safe income just because you can't guarantee that the money will be there when you need it, but you can guarantee that you'll need it sooner rather than later, because life in nullsec can get expensive. You don't have to wait for a big break to get your new doctrine ships that the FC wanted you in yesterday. Second, there's time and attention. PVE that requires even a modest amount of attention makes it difficult or impossible to dual-box a null-sec character, so you have AFK drone platforms everywhere even though they're not optimal income generators, for the simple reason that they take a minimum amount of attention to run, so they're nearly passive income. Your PVP character can roam in a fleet, or sit on a titan, or whatever. But of course, they're not hard to interdict. The big money sites aren't available to little guys in little ships; even if they were, there aren't enough to support a huge population.
You're absolutely right that improving bounties is not the way forward. Anomalies are already fountaining ISK. The Level 4 model would be better in theory, but what actually makes it as profitable as it is is a combination of a vast player market and safe, reliable logistics. These are closely tied to each other, and also to the fact that every station in high sec is a freeport. One alternative to direct ISK injection is a thriving market economy where players are paying each other. How do you do that in paranoid, mostly-NBSI null? A few people are trying, but none of them are major powers.
So the other alternative lies with alliances, who are, after all, massive aggregators of income sitting on significant treasuries. But it's not as easy as paying salaries to line members either, is it? That money could bleed an alliance of badly needed wartime finances. So yeah, interesting question.
I think the most elegant solution would have been 1 player, 1 account, but that ship's sailed.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15840
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 03:50:16 -
[768] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Highsec incursions are just a distraction. Remove them and the next target will be level 4 missions and on and on. People are wildly overstating their incursion income over any real length of time. You can do the same income level with 4s without all the waiting and down time. Messing with incursion runners via ganks is even easier than mission runners.
How exactly is it easier to gank them?
ashley Eoner wrote: The ability to rent systems actually helped the little guys get a foothold in nullsec. I know that on my own I was able to afford the rent of a nice little system out in the middle of nowhere with relatively little effort. The downside of this is that the bigger blocks took even more income away from their members by renting out space that their members should of been using to make isk. Not really sure if there's a possible solution that will work on all fronts.
We took no income away from our line members because the space was not used. The space rented was of such low value that you would have been better off running level 3 mission in highsec. A great chunk of these systems would struggle to even compete with level 2 missions they are so poor. The rental empires were nothing but a scam.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Kamala
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 08:52:58 -
[769] - Quote
You are asking CCP to remove high level group PvE content from the most populated area of the game. You might as well ask them to cut off their own genitalia. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
529
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 08:56:20 -
[770] - Quote
Kamala wrote:You are asking CCP to remove high level group PvE content from the most populated area of the game. You might as well ask them to cut off their own genitalia.
not really just adjust payouts so they are inline with other activities, or let sanshas loyalists shoot them in the warzones they farm 23.5/7
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Kamala
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 09:21:25 -
[771] - Quote
Ah, I must have misread the bits where the OP said "end highsec incursions" and "please put an end to incursions". |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
529
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 09:22:52 -
[772] - Quote
Kamala wrote:Ah, I must have misread the bits where the OP said "end highsec incursions" and "please put an end to incursions".
well thats OP's drastic idea when really it just needs balanced a bit better, you would have realised that if you read a bit past the OP
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
984
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 09:31:44 -
[773] - Quote
Kamala wrote:You are asking CCP to remove high level group PvE content from the most populated area of the game. You might as well ask them to cut off their own genitalia. Sometimes you have to amputate a diseased organ or limb to save the patient.
CCP will have no choice to tone back (or revamp the risk level of) incursions soon to stop the migration of people away from dangerous spaces where player-driven content actually happens, to grind ISK in 100% safe highsec incursions where nothing interesting, player-driven or otherwise happens anymore.
But it isn't as bad as you make out. My guess is more than half of incursion grinders are players who are comfortable operating in any space and if you nerf incursion income, they will just move to where the next most ISK is available, which is in lowsec, WH space, and hopefully soon, a revamped nullsec. If the rest really love incursion gameplay, they can still keep doing them, albeit for reduced income commensurate with the lack of risk.
If not, Fozziesov will fail and the game will continue to stagnate. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2128
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 09:57:47 -
[774] - Quote
Or..... we could believe Fozzie actually has real numbers that support the fact that individual income in null is fine.... And that the real problem with Null income is the number that can be doing things in the same system at the same time.
And quit trying to project blame onto other people rather than address the real issue, that you have to spread out so much that you are easy meat when making isk in Null in most ways, or you get in each others way. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
36963
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 10:13:26 -
[775] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Or..... we could believe Fozzie actually has real numbers that support the fact that individual income in null is fine.... I don't think we have a reason to believe that do we? He hasn't ever said that unless I missed something.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
985
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 10:19:44 -
[776] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Or..... we could believe Fozzie actually has real numbers that support the fact that individual income in null is fine.... And that the real problem with Null income is the number that can be doing things in the same system at the same time.
And quit trying to project blame onto other people rather than address the real issue, that you have to spread out so much that you are easy meat when making isk in Null in most ways, or you get in each others way. Ok. So you think the issue is that it is too difficult (or risky) in nullsec to make comparable ISK to highsec incursions? Well that is the same problem - income in nullsec is not lucrative enough as compared to the risk-free and easily accessible incursion income.
People are voting with their feet. They are not bothering to eek out a living in nullsec as incursion income is too easy and too lucrative. Fozzie has those numbers and CCP has acknowledged in the CSM minutes there is an issue. Maybe CCP will come up with some compelling new gameplay or rewards to draw people to live and defend nullsec. But if Fozziesov is just the status quo made more vulnerable, hardly anyone is going to pick hard-to-defend nullsec over risk-free incursions as their income source and nullsec will be a larger wasteland than it is today. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2128
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 10:31:46 -
[777] - Quote
No, that's not what I believe. I believe firstly, most of those complaining actually do make their isk in Null, the loudest voices in this thread are well known anti high sec voices who would delete all of highsec and leave just Null if they could after all.
Secondly, I believe that it's too awkward for a large group to make a living in Null. Note, Awkward, not difficult. There are a limited number of ways possible to make isk in Null. You can belt rat. You can run Anoms. You can run Sigs. These can only support a few people in the same system simultaneously as there is a limit on these per constellation. Typically 3-5 is the normal limit. You can't run these viably in a fleet as the payout is subsequently split.
At times there are Null incursions, and the change to VG's to allow 15 man fleets full payout in Null was a great step to making them more viable for Null groups, but should be extended to all the sizes of site in Null.
Now, this means that your roaming gang of 10 will only find 3-5 people who are actively playing in each system with solo optimised ships. Just because 10 more are logged in doesn't mean they are even near the computer, so those 3-5 people will dock up. It then takes time and effort to get some of those inactive people to the computer, during which you have normally passed on anyway.
If instead there are 20 people in that system, running 5 groups of 4 pilots each to do some form of group content with group optimised ships (ala incursion scout sites, but global, obviously not actually incursions though), chances of 2 or 3 of those groups deciding to combine to form a fight are much higher.
Hence why I disagree that mission agents are the correct answer, even though they will increase the density, and believe we need a new form of group friendly (but not compulsory) PvE for all space to encourage more social activity and more working together in fleets. But mission agents do at least allow you to have 20 active pilots in one system.
Anyway, TLDR version of all that. Stop trying to kill highsec at the same time as changes are happening to Null, or you swing the pendulum too far. And add more group content into Null. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
985
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 10:46:58 -
[778] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Anyway, TLDR version of all that. Stop trying to kill highsec at the same time as changes are happening to Null, or you swing the pendulum too far. And add more group content into Null.
Reducing the income from incursions 25% (or whatever) will not kill highsec. It will however stimulate player conflict elsewhere in the game by driving many players back into more dangerous spaces in search of income and make Eve a better, more dynamic game overall.
I do agree with you though that CCP is waiting to see how these dramatic changes to nullsec pan out before nerfing highsec incursions. When they see no one is moving to nullsec, they will act - my guess is that two patches after Fozziesov there will be a "rebalance" of either incursion income or incursion risk (new AI, more randomness, tougher NPCs, etc.) or both.
So incursion grinders, mark August 25th on your calendar and make sure you have ground out all the risk-free ISK you need by then as the hammer is going to drop on your income source. You heard it here first.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12919
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 12:06:21 -
[779] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Stop trying to kill highsec at the same time as changes are happening to Null, or you swing the pendulum too far. And add more group content into Null.
The new changes make it less attractive to live in nullsec by and large, and the answer to "is a nullsec income rebalance in the works?" has been "Nope".
So yeah, I will go on suggesting that incursions, the most egregiously unbalanced thing in the game today, be adjusted downward, or have more risk added. Because the way they stand at present in unacceptably broken.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10913
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 12:47:35 -
[780] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Or..... we could believe Fozzie actually has real numbers that support the fact that individual income in null is fine.... And that the real problem with Null income is the number that can be doing things in the same system at the same time.
And quit trying to project blame onto other people rather than address the real issue, that you have to spread out so much that you are easy meat when making isk in Null in most ways, or you get in each others way.
I see you still choose to participate in a discussion you know nothing about (falling back on the 'Fozzie must know' line line, Fozzie is a nice guy, but a PVEr he ain't) while still declining to actually go find out for yourself.
That makes no earthly sense. You obviously have access to the EVE Online client because you are posting here, you could spend some time sampling isk making activities across the EVE universe and see for yourself how broken the situation is. But you don't, because for some reason telling the truth about a small situation in a video game is hard?
Since you won['t take the time to do it, allow me to. Last night I flew my Mach with 2 incursion groups. WTM till they stood down (I joined at the end of their run), and then TVP. It took me 13 minutes from the time I signaled to join the WTM fleet, and I was on TVPs automated waitlist for 26 minutes (that in-game browser waitlist thing is freaking awesome)
Because I find incursion grinding to be not the most exciting thing, I self limit myself to 4-5 sites per run. Did 4 with WTM in an hour thanks to two TCRCs and 4 with TVP in a little more than an hour (2 NRFs, 2 TCRCs). That got me 252 mil isk and 56k Concord LP, lowball the LP sale that will come later and that's 300 mil.
That SAME mach, flown by a toon with MORE SP than my incursion runner, in null (ie space hundreds of people probably had to TiDi fight over) made on average 25 mil every 20 minutes.
That's 4 hours in Zero security space, exposed to any newb with a ceptor or dictor, in space that I and my group FOUGHT (against other people, TiDi and the boringness of structure grinding) for, to make what I made in HIGH SEC in 2 hours and some change protected by CONCORD and a squad of logistics ships. --
And since you've demonstrated in the past that you can't accept the truth of the above Nevyn, let me make an analogy for you. Imagine a game of Soccer (what most of earth calls 'football') where you have 2 choices:
Choice 1 is play via the standard rules. Long story short, your objective is to get the ball into the other team's goal, against opposition (both from opposing players and stoopid refs lol)
OR
Choice 2. Just stay in your own 18 yard box and kick the ball into your own goal over and over again and be awarded points for it, oh and no one can come into that box but your own teammates and the refs, if the opposing team comes into that box and even TRY to kick the ball away or into your goal , well, screw red cards, actual police officers rope down from the sky to whoop their asses.. Oh and each goal kicked into your own goal is TWO points as opposed to the piddly one point you get from actually playing the game against opposition.
That's the state of PVE rewards in EVE. I can take a whole bunch of risk (after expending a whole bunch of effort, starting with the effort of joining a sov holding group) and spend more time grinding than having fun , or I can literally cut that not so fun time IN HALF in HIGH SEC kick an Outuni shaped ball into a Vylade shaped hole.
It's completely messed up, even if I am kicking the ball into my own goal because it would be stupid not to... But the thing that's worse than all of that is you won't go see for your damn self.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15841
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Posted - 2015.05.07 16:37:37 -
[781] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: You can belt rat.
One of the worst activities for isk/hr in the game, even miners laugh at the level of income from belt ratting
Nevyn Auscent wrote: You can run Anoms.
On par with blitzing level 3 missions in highsec
Nevyn Auscent wrote: You can run Sigs.
Income has collapsed due to changes in drops, also cannot host more than 100 per region and if you up that number then the reward from them becomes diluted even further.
Nevyn Auscent wrote: At times there are Null incursions
Not viable as they are removed from important space due to the negative impact on infrastructure and you cannot run them like you can in highsec as you do not have access to any space other than your own.[/quote]
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10918
|
Posted - 2015.05.07 18:50:27 -
[782] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: You can belt rat.
One of the worst activities for isk/hr in the game, even miners laugh at the level of income from belt ratting
Did he really mention belt ratting like this is 2007 or something? LMAO. Sounds like a bad case of the lemons.
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Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
6
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Posted - 2015.05.07 22:00:50 -
[783] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:-stuff-
For starters, they could introduce an upgrade that allows people to put a certain amount of npcs into their stations so that people out in null can make some isk in their home system. Make it where missions handed out either stay within the system or never go further out than neighboring systems. mission levels can be based on the level of upgrade up to level 5 missions and 5 agents. The controlling alliance should be able to change what type of missions are there as well (but let's be honest, only security missions really matter).
Reduce the distance needed to travel for null sec escalations significantly. I have seen screen shots of some crazy distances and all that does is discourage people from doing them.
Introduce another upgrade that allows some sort of exclusive PvE activity to null sec only that pays out very well like incursions regardless of the number of pilots. The activity would only take place in the system where the upgrade is and there should be different levels to it. This way everyone from frigates to titans can participate.
Both upgrades should add to the upkeep system that is currently in place.
Changes to the mechanics of the game can help bolster null sec activity too.
For example, as a previous poster stated somewhere, you can have gates launch the player to a random spot in space. I would modify this by saying within 8 AU of a randomly selected celestial object, even the gates.
They can remove local, this will offer blanket protection for both predator and prey and make intelligence gathering actually a thing instead of simply looking at local to see who is there.
These changes would decrease PvP in the short term, but i believe once people start realizing that they aren't forced to go through a tunnel of death (spawning next to a gate while people effortlessly camp for prey), they'll start coming more often I believe. I could be wrong, but hey, I never claimed to be a genius |
Malcaz
Addicted to Shljivovica The Looper Collective
41
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 00:13:37 -
[784] - Quote
All of the proposed measures would make the entire incursion mechanic useless and nobody would do it. It is impossible to rat in large groups of multibillion isk battleships in null sec in such defined areas, it would be a ganker feast. So then you might as well remove incursions from the game altogether.
tl;dr of the rest of the the rest of the thread: nerf everything but nullsec ratting into garbage to the point where nobody would do it anymore. Good idea for making people enjoy eve. |
Megumi Yumiko
Black Saints Bad Intention
0
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Posted - 2015.05.08 01:05:06 -
[785] - Quote
I think they should change it, its far to easy and profitable. I used to run incursions all the time and it is simply said, Easy mode
I used to run them with just my alts together lol made a small fortune before I got bored. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
299
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 03:17:14 -
[786] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: Anyway, TLDR version of all that. Stop trying to kill highsec at the same time as changes are happening to Null, or you swing the pendulum too far. And add more group content into Null.
Reducing the income from incursions 25% (or whatever) will not kill highsec. It will however stimulate player conflict elsewhere in the game by driving many players back into more dangerous spaces in search of income and make Eve a better, more dynamic game overall. I do agree with you though that CCP is waiting to see how these dramatic changes to nullsec pan out before nerfing highsec incursions. When they see no one is moving to nullsec, they will act - my guess is that two patches after Fozziesov there will be a "rebalance" of either incursion income or incursion risk (new AI, more randomness, tougher NPCs, etc.) or both. So incursion grinders, mark August 25th on your calendar and make sure you have ground out all the risk-free ISK you need by then as the hammer is going to drop on your income source. You heard it here first.
Damn, son. I like your style.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Lew Dicrous
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
14
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Posted - 2015.05.08 04:28:21 -
[787] - Quote
Just add a PVP mechanic to contesting sites.
Or create a Sansha's Nation pirate militia that corps/alliances with low enough empire faction standings can join to bolster the incursion. Add in CONCORD sites, a CONCORD mom, and make it a competition.
But if you just want to kill off hisec incursions, then just make the system control drop the security rating to 0.1. No runners will go near them.
It burns when I PVP
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
303
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Posted - 2015.05.08 05:35:45 -
[788] - Quote
Lew Dicrous wrote: But if you just want to kill off hisec incursions, then just make the system control drop the security rating to 0.1. No runners will go near them.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
This is the best idea since... I can't recall that far back.
Make it happen. Ha-ha-ha.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
539
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Posted - 2015.05.08 08:03:22 -
[789] - Quote
Malcaz wrote:All of the proposed measures would make the entire incursion mechanic useless and nobody would do it. It is impossible to rat in large groups of multibillion isk battleships in null sec in such defined areas, it would be a ganker feast. So then you might as well remove incursions from the game altogether.
tl;dr of the rest of the the rest of the thread: nerf everything but nullsec ratting into garbage to the point where nobody would do it anymore. Good idea for making people enjoy eve and retaining players.
I agree fully to make nullsec PVE worth doing, but do not nerf all the activities that other people enjoy doing.
Also, incursion income is not as high as the OP says. It can be between 100-250 mil, 100 is when you have to run crappy sites because there are no good sites or because you cannot compete with other fleets that are running the good sites. It averages out to being a lot lower than 250 mil a hour. The OP is exaggerating for dramatic effect. Compared to wormhole ratting, incursioning is not worth the time at all, so I only resort to it when it is the only income available to me.
your basing enjoyment on isk generation which is wrong
"It is impossible to rat in large groups of multibillion isk battleships in null sec in such defined areas" - dozens of carriers, machariels, ishtars rat in null daily people even use supers to rat, however they take the risk and people die, supers die, thing is with the group things in null is people dont need groups of people to rat, people can rat solo in carriers. the risk is so much higher than incursions and if your saying that people wont do incursions if you change a slight thing and add i miniscule of risk to the equation then (changing it so someone has a risk of losing a ship) its clear that its only done for the massive isk payout and thats just greed and a clear unbalance.
Null income is fine, every other activity is also fine (bar fw missions) its highsec incursions which are the issue here. why overhaul a whole part of space just so highseccers can enjoy making lots of isk with no risk when you can just nerf the core issue
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Malcaz
Addicted to Shljivovica The Looper Collective
41
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Posted - 2015.05.08 11:00:36 -
[790] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Malcaz wrote:All of the proposed measures would make the entire incursion mechanic useless and nobody would do it. It is impossible to rat in large groups of multibillion isk battleships in null sec in such defined areas, it would be a ganker feast. So then you might as well remove incursions from the game altogether.
tl;dr of the rest of the the rest of the thread: nerf everything but nullsec ratting into garbage to the point where nobody would do it anymore. Good idea for making people enjoy eve and retaining players.
I agree fully to make nullsec PVE worth doing, but do not nerf all the activities that other people enjoy doing.
Also, incursion income is not as high as the OP says. It can be between 100-250 mil, 100 is when you have to run crappy sites because there are no good sites or because you cannot compete with other fleets that are running the good sites. It averages out to being a lot lower than 250 mil a hour. The OP is exaggerating for dramatic effect. Compared to wormhole ratting, incursioning is not worth the time at all, so I only resort to it when it is the only income available to me. your basing enjoyment on isk generation which is wrong "It is impossible to rat in large groups of multibillion isk battleships in null sec in such defined areas" - dozens of carriers, machariels, ishtars rat in null daily people even use supers to rat, however they take the risk and people die, supers die, thing is with the group things in null is people dont need groups of people to rat, people can rat solo in carriers. the risk is so much higher than incursions and if your saying that people wont do incursions if you change a slight thing and add i miniscule of risk to the equation then (changing it so someone has a risk of losing a ship) its clear that its only done for the massive isk payout and thats just greed and a clear unbalance. Null income is fine, every other activity is also fine (bar fw missions) its highsec incursions which are the issue here. why overhaul a whole part of space just so highseccers can enjoy making lots of isk with no risk when you can just nerf the core issue
Having enjoyable ways to generate decent isk is very important, yes.
Almost nobody does nullsec incursions.
Stop bitching that people in highsec can make isk and go play the game how you like it.
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
541
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Posted - 2015.05.08 11:05:25 -
[791] - Quote
i do play the game how i like it and i like bitching about things that are not balanced, as for bitching if we didnt ***** then you highsec carebears would just carry on with your overpaid activities and complain about nerfing ganking or some other thing which affects your isk making agenda
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Origin. Black Legion.
2204
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Posted - 2015.05.08 16:47:07 -
[792] - Quote
Lew Dicrous wrote:Just add a PVP mechanic to contesting sites. ...But if you just want to kill off hisec incursions, then just make the system control drop the security rating to 0.1. No runners will go near them.
Lew you might have hit on something magical there...
What if when an incursion starts in a system its sec level did drop to losec 0.4 level, for the duration of the incursion?
Talk about a meaningful mechanic and good counter-balance to the farming going on today! You would have carebears evaccing, glorious gate camps and delicious temporary anarchy. It would be...GLORIOUS!
Hell, incursions would even then actually mean something to non-incursion runners transitting system, beyond just frakking up their screen color pallette (and splooging an annoying chat window in face...)
Naysayers can't say this wouldn't work, just remember the battle of Luminaire a while back when CONCORD was suspended in there for a day or so. It was dynamic CONTENT, in an often content-void hisec.
CCP, DO THIS. Do it NAOW.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
274
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 18:05:37 -
[793] - Quote
Malcaz wrote:All of the proposed measures would make the entire incursion mechanic useless and nobody would do it. It is impossible to rat in large groups of multibillion isk battleships in null sec in such defined areas, it would be a ganker feast. So then you might as well remove incursions from the game altogether.
I have in fact run incursions in null, and to date have not lost a ship doing it. I freely admit my ship is encrusted with deadspace mods and any gankers would love to have it as a trophy on their KB. As others have stated though, null incursions that are runnable last less than a day, and it may be months before one spawns close enough to run, as opposed to being completely farmable for 6 days, and always having one up to run.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
343
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 19:45:48 -
[794] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:If you actually like Hi Sec, I'm not there to tell you what to do, but if you want it to actually be -safe-, you have to have incentives in other parts of the game, which causes populations to move there, which gives antagonists something interesting to do, which makes the sandbox more vibrant. I'm for a healthy new Eden, and for that to happen, the rewards have to be higher in more dangerous areas of space.
How would you propose then, raising the baseline income in null? First, your framing of the question is complicated by alts. A player can live in nullsec and run incursions in high sec at the same time. Second, the mad ISK/hr and super low risk are only present at the highest level (and even then, Ii'd like to know what the real ISK/hr is when you count travel, converting LP, waiting, etc.--I'm sure it's still good, but probably not as good as the numbers you see thrown around). Warp To Me lose ships regularly, because they take in newbies, have forgiving doctrines, and run smaller sites; ISN don't, because they have veteran pilots in extremely powerful ships running the best. It's a similar problem in L4s: how do you make them doable by a six-month player's single capsuleer in My First Dominix without making it a cakewalk for a six year player running dual Machariels? I think the most elegant solution would have been 1 player, 1 account, but that ship's sailed.
I'm glad someone gets it. I'm tired of people asking that the game be balanced according to a play style that relies on multiboxing to work. You can't balance the game to be challenging for someone with 8 accounts without locking out a casual or new player who is limited to one.
Anything that is a reasonable income source for one player can be mercilessly exploited through the massive efficiency and risk adjustments available through multiboxing. Just having the ability to multibox a scout/scanner alt would make this game so much easier for me. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
277
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 20:40:20 -
[795] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote: I'm glad someone gets it. I'm tired of people asking that the game be balanced according to a play style that relies on multiboxing to work. You can't balance the game to be challenging for someone with 8 accounts without locking out a casual or new player who is limited to one.
Anything that is a reasonable income source for one player can be mercilessly exploited through the massive efficiency and risk adjustments available through multiboxing. Just having the ability to multibox a scout/scanner alt would make this game so much easier for me.
It's not just multiboxers. Even running one account in Hisec manually with an alt is going to either beat or be competitive with the isk/hr you are going to get in null per character, and have virtually none of the risks associated with it. Incursions just stand out more than L4s. This is bad game play because there are no real decisions to be made here; Hi Sec is the better choice. Just as many Hi Sec people do not want 'NullSec Online' where it's the only viable choice, there is a similar situation where people want to see an end to "HiSec Online". There's room for both in a game as big as EvE; just that they should offer different things at different risk levels. Eve is intriguing because of decisions - social, fitting, tactics, economic....the list goes on. When it comes to shooting red crosses, the risk/reward paradigm is pretty broken.
Think about people who run data/relic sites. Killboards are littered with dead explorers who either got lazy or ended up on the wrong side of a good sabre pilot. This is a good thing - explorers have to make a decision if they want to accept terrible income in HiSec with virtually no risk, or the potential for a good haul with a healthy amount of risk. There's actually a decision to be made here, making it good game play. In fact, there's even a spectrum with Lowsec offering some risk and better rewards, but not as risky as null with the best rewards. Data/Relic sties represent a good model paradigm.
I don't think there are any sane arguments against the internal consistency of the Data/relic sites risk/reward paradigm. It's rock solid. I'm waiting for a good argument why Incursions and L4s are allowed to so break their respective paradigm.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Lew Dicrous
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2015.05.08 20:49:30 -
[796] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Lew Dicrous wrote:Just add a PVP mechanic to contesting sites. ...But if you just want to kill off hisec incursions, then just make the system control drop the security rating to 0.1. No runners will go near them.
Lew you might have hit on something magical there... What if when an incursion starts in a system its sec level did drop to losec 0.4 level, for the duration of the incursion? Talk about a meaningful mechanic and good counter-balance to the farming going on today! You would have carebears evaccing, glorious gate camps and delicious temporary anarchy. It would be...GLORIOUS! Hell, incursions would even then actually mean something to non-incursion runners transitting system, beyond just frakking up their screen color pallette (and splooging an annoying chat window in face...) Naysayers can't say this wouldn't work, just remember the battle of Luminaire a while back when CONCORD was suspended in there for a day or so. It was dynamic CONTENT, in an often content-void hisec. CCP, DO THIS. Do it NAOW. F
sniffle, he remembered my name!
It burns when I PVP
|
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 00:29:57 -
[797] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:If you actually like Hi Sec, I'm not there to tell you what to do, but if you want it to actually be -safe-, you have to have incentives in other parts of the game, which causes populations to move there, which gives antagonists something interesting to do, which makes the sandbox more vibrant. I'm for a healthy new Eden, and for that to happen, the rewards have to be higher in more dangerous areas of space.
How would you propose then, raising the baseline income in null? First, your framing of the question is complicated by alts. A player can live in nullsec and run incursions in high sec at the same time. Second, the mad ISK/hr and super low risk are only present at the highest level (and even then, Ii'd like to know what the real ISK/hr is when you count travel, converting LP, waiting, etc.--I'm sure it's still good, but probably not as good as the numbers you see thrown around). Warp To Me lose ships regularly, because they take in newbies, have forgiving doctrines, and run smaller sites; ISN don't, because they have veteran pilots in extremely powerful ships running the best. It's a similar problem in L4s: how do you make them doable by a six-month player's single capsuleer in My First Dominix without making it a cakewalk for a six year player running dual Machariels? I think the most elegant solution would have been 1 player, 1 account, but that ship's sailed. I'm glad someone gets it. I'm tired of people asking that the game be balanced according to a play style that relies on multiboxing to work. You can't balance the game to be challenging for someone with 8 accounts without locking out a casual or new player who is limited to one. Anything that is a reasonable income source for one player can be mercilessly exploited through the massive efficiency and risk adjustments available through multiboxing. Just having the ability to multibox a scout/scanner alt would make this game so much easier for me.
It's why i get a sense of accomplishment when I solo some PvE content. I can't count how many times a player told me they soloed x,y, and z but then tell you about the three accounts they have.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15844
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 03:10:46 -
[798] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:If you actually like Hi Sec, I'm not there to tell you what to do, but if you want it to actually be -safe-, you have to have incentives in other parts of the game, which causes populations to move there, which gives antagonists something interesting to do, which makes the sandbox more vibrant. I'm for a healthy new Eden, and for that to happen, the rewards have to be higher in more dangerous areas of space.
How would you propose then, raising the baseline income in null? First, your framing of the question is complicated by alts. A player can live in nullsec and run incursions in high sec at the same time. Second, the mad ISK/hr and super low risk are only present at the highest level (and even then, Ii'd like to know what the real ISK/hr is when you count travel, converting LP, waiting, etc.--I'm sure it's still good, but probably not as good as the numbers you see thrown around). Warp To Me lose ships regularly, because they take in newbies, have forgiving doctrines, and run smaller sites; ISN don't, because they have veteran pilots in extremely powerful ships running the best. It's a similar problem in L4s: how do you make them doable by a six-month player's single capsuleer in My First Dominix without making it a cakewalk for a six year player running dual Machariels? I think the most elegant solution would have been 1 player, 1 account, but that ship's sailed. I'm glad someone gets it. I'm tired of people asking that the game be balanced according to a play style that relies on multiboxing to work. You can't balance the game to be challenging for someone with 8 accounts without locking out a casual or new player who is limited to one. Anything that is a reasonable income source for one player can be mercilessly exploited through the massive efficiency and risk adjustments available through multiboxing. Just having the ability to multibox a scout/scanner alt would make this game so much easier for me.
Problem we have is that even solo you make more isk in highsec.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1570
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 05:09:30 -
[799] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Think about people who run data/relic sites. Killboards are littered with dead explorers who either got lazy or ended up on the wrong side of a good sabre pilot. This is a good thing - explorers have to make a decision if they want to accept terrible income in HiSec with virtually no risk, or the potential for a good haul with a healthy amount of risk. There's actually a decision to be made here, making it good game play. In fact, there's even a spectrum with Lowsec offering some risk and better rewards, but not as risky as null with the best rewards. Data/Relic sties represent a good model paradigm.
Except that they don't really, for two reasons: first, explorers are not concerned with ISK/hr, because even in the absence of Sabre pilots their income is feast-or-famine, and the lucky streak, the big score and the risk involved are all part of the appeal. Second, exploration's paydays come from finding rare things and bringing them back to civilization. The more people do that, the less the rare items are worth--any veteran explorer can tell you what happened after Odyssey hit and a huge number of new players tried exploration. Exploration only scales if the ratio of explorers to players who can afford their shines remains constant. (Wormholes, same thing: after everyone and his brother set up in a wormhole to get some of that sweet sleeper loot, the value of sleeper loot plummeted.)
If you're a line member in Large Coalition, and you have jump freighter and carrier pilots to pay for getting your doctrine ships to you (new ones only, assuming SRP, is still a fair chunk of change) plus ratting ships , roaming ships, etc., etc.... do you roll an explorer alt, or an alt pursuing a career with a much steadier income? Or maybe an alt that makes money in a semi-automated (drone boat) or minimal-attention (mining, industry, trade once you're settled in) way?
This is why some people choose salaries over piecework and commissions: when you have a steady stream of obligations, and dependents, a reliable stream looks pretty good even if it will never yield a jackpot.
Vic Jefferson wrote:I don't think there are any sane arguments against the internal consistency of the Data/relic sites risk/reward paradigm. It's rock solid. I'm waiting for a good argument why Incursions and L4s are allowed to so break their respective paradigm.
Er, the same reason there are different flavors of space? Different people get different things out of video games under different time constraints and for different reasons. Incursions are social, and at the highest level they're basically EVE's raids. As with all reward systems contingent on LP, they become (somewhat) less lucrative the more people do them. L4s are content on demand if you don't have time, and again, they pay out mostly in LP. L4s and L3s could be tweaked to minimize the extent to which they are exploited by veterans, but none of the people at CCP seem to care: it's old, awful code, and fixing it is clearly a lower priority than working on new stuff. The latter decision tells me that CCP doesn't believe there's anything game-breakingly wrong with them. They even introduced MTUs.
To turn the question around: if CCP has directed most of its income-diverting attention not to L4s and Incursions (which did get a rebalance pass that the runners seemed to find agreeable), but to nullsec anomaly income via the ESS, and if CCP Fozzie has gone on record saying "we know how much money you make in null, and it's a **** ton," then why are you convinced that L4s and incursions are a problem? Why are you convinced that ISK/hr is intrinsically a problem, when the prevalence of AFK ratting boats suggests otherwise? I made 40M ISK/hr the year I was in a C2 WH. If I had the choice to do that again, or to make three times more running a highly repetitive and involved process to tweak the absolute most out of L4s for three times the income, I'd be back in that WH in a heartbeat.
The only convincing example I can think of is the near-evacuation of C6 WH space; many of those guys apparently wound up in incursions. But their previous method of ISK making was also really safe (because they would "zip up" their holes) unless someone went to a great deal of planning and effort to make it unsafe for them by setting up a massive login trap. With tens or hundreds of billions of ISK on the field and unable to move for five minute intervals, that precaution was understandable.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15844
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 11:43:44 -
[800] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote: The only convincing example I can think of is the near-evacuation of C6 WH space
I'll give you another.
Why would I spend 2.5 billion on a ratting carrier that will die at some point in the not too distant future to make 90mil/hr when I can spent 800 mil on a mach and run level 3 missions and make just as much with next to zero risk ever?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
343
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 18:23:16 -
[801] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: I'm glad someone gets it. I'm tired of people asking that the game be balanced according to a play style that relies on multiboxing to work. You can't balance the game to be challenging for someone with 8 accounts without locking out a casual or new player who is limited to one.
Anything that is a reasonable income source for one player can be mercilessly exploited through the massive efficiency and risk adjustments available through multiboxing. Just having the ability to multibox a scout/scanner alt would make this game so much easier for me.
It's not just multiboxers. Even running one account in Hisec manually with an alt is going to either beat or be competitive with the isk/hr you are going to get in null per character, and have virtually none of the risks associated with it. Incursions just stand out more than L4s.
High incomes per se are not a problem, leveraged high income in the case of ISBotting - is.
The topic has been explained by me, here - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5729343#post5729343 and the rest of the posts on that page.
However, this being a specific case of Hisec high income, I'll let you guys duke it out in an impartialGäó manner.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
686
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 23:13:43 -
[802] - Quote
The op is off her rocker. Incursions in high sec are already nerfed.. null sec incursions pay out more.
-á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10927
|
Posted - 2015.05.09 23:26:55 -
[803] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote: This is a worthless post
Quoting the one thing you said was true lol. I don't advocate getting rid of high sec incursions, but the dumbest thing anyone could do is compare high sec incursions (at last mention, 91-93% of all incursion payouts) with incursions that almost never get run. And all with a dose of "null sec is safer than high sec" lying.
I mean really, that last bit is delusional, so CONCORD isn't help? |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
99
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 02:17:46 -
[804] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:You can't add more rat loot Then I would point you towards; Tags for Sec, Drone Data Chips exchangeable in the Sisters LP store, and the drop of various BPC for pirate ships. Each of these does not impact mining and has successfully led to increased value and traffic to low-sec. I considered something outrageous like a BPC for pirate dreads. But what would I know about balance? I'll leave it to the experts.
Vic Jefferson wrote:what Fozziesov needs to do is make real estate attractive to own for smaller entities its actually the reverse. Its needs to incentive to against larger groups. "might is right". There is nothing that a small group can do, that a larger cannot do proportionately better. Which is why there should be ceilings to the amount of minerals and player support that a system - to generate downward pressure on player count. As its stands now Imp has won Eve. No one is willing or able have an effect. That's a victory condition - either an unthinkable board reset or drastic rule change. Well, it would if not for a major amount of apathy towards null.
Vic Jefferson wrote:recent null-ore buffs printing more bank notes does not relieve poverty does it? So adding better ore to null. Its power creep, there will be increased production to consume the surplus, and things will be back to importing the shortfall from hi-sec. How long did TiDi band-aid for? It goes again to what I said "downward pressure". Plus its about time to add density tax on trade, at the same mode that was added to Industry. Why develop locally while the Walmart of Eve does it all for you.
Vic Jefferson wrote:One of my core tenants when I ran for CSM was ending Hi Sec Incursions ... Obviously a lot of people care greatly about it(hi-sec incurs) Self evidently not, since being blunt, you were not elected.
Vic Jefferson wrote:Hi Sec will remain at the mercy of gankers and Wardeccers They were here long before Incursions and will remain long after should there be a change. Hell, as long as there are mining barges to kill farm, the status quo is here to stay.
*=========
I really do not care. I don't have any more give - a-la Funky Bacon. Move incursions out of high-sec, remove L4 and gut the NPC Bounties by 90%. It will be a week of tears and then most will find some other game play within high-sec. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
37064
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 02:38:38 -
[805] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:null sec incursions pay out more even though the incursion enemies are every bit as dangerous in high sec ...even though suicide ganking of "blinged" ships is greater in high sec than in null sec (in null sec you have a better chance to get help or defend others who are attacked by "gankers"). Let's take a challenge together, since I've never run an incursion, but wouldn't mind seeing for myself.
Let's both fit out nice bling Nightmare's and go join the valhalla project for Vanguards. Run them for a week in highsec and then see if we can convince others to join us in a nullsec incursion.
Even if no one else decides to come I'll buy ships for some of my Corp mates so we have the numbers. Then let's just go take our Nightmares to a nullsec incursion and see what happens.
Certainly suicide ganking is greater in highsec, since it doesn't exist at all in nullsec, but if you think that makes highsec incursion running more dangerous than nullsec, this should turn out great for us, as long as we can survive that first dangerous week?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Avaelica Kuershin
57
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 02:47:22 -
[806] - Quote
I had been on the fence regarding incursions until I got auto-joined to the incursion channel and viewed the resultant chatter about ISK/hr efficiency and how welcoming of newer players the groups were. Reminds me too much of raiding in WoW... are you doing this for fun or for the payout?
(Was glad to finish my hi-sec business after that) |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
278
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 04:44:55 -
[807] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:Then I would point you towards; Tags for Sec, Drone Data Chips exchangeable in the Sisters LP store, and the drop of various BPC for pirate ships. Each of these does not impact mining and has successfully led to increased value and traffic to low-sec. I considered something outrageous like a BPC for pirate dreads. But what would I know about balance? I'll leave it to the experts.
Most of that does not really apply to sov line member income, i.e. anomalies, which I was obviously referring to in the post you quoted. Tags for sec is a good first step towards raising baseline low sec income, but you still cant sustain a group on them really, and this has nothing to do with null sec income. Most Pirate BPCs, with like 2-3 exceptions, have their prices in the gutter due to some combination of oversupply/under demand, and exploration has a hard cap on how many people can run it in a region. None of that really addresses the point that the sustainable, accessible, available income in Hi Sec via L4s and Incursions, especially after risk is calculated in, vastly out competes what you can typically do in null.
GetSirrus wrote:No one is willing or able have an effect.
Already, before any of the changes are even live, just the announcement of changes, has empires consolidating, and some rather large areas of space changing hands or going up for grabs. This is a good thing. Phoebe changes likewise changed the way the game can be played - also a good thing. These changes are already having a huge effect and I think it is a little daft to not see any of them, and I'd suggest taking another look.
Taking space needs to be encouraged, not punished. It needs to be empowering. People need to want to take some of this space, make their own alliances and coalitions, and actually take part in things. Currently, this audacity is punished, not rewarded. If you want to see a major upset in the political and social structures out there in null, you need to get fresh blood into the mix, and what's more, you need to give them a reason to be out there. It's fully telling how poor the situation is out in null when Hi Sec alts are a thing, and can make better income there than they could in null, particularly off Incursions. Why would anyone want to fight terrible wars, guard space, put time into logistics, put time into social engineering and keeping allies happy, just to have space that is worth less to the everyman out there than Hi Sec? Taking, holding and living in space should be rewarded, and any sort of re-engineering of the actual income available there has yet to be shown.
GetSirrus wrote:So adding better ore to null. Its power creep....Why develop locally while the Walmart of Eve does it all for you. I'm really excited about the ore changes, coupled with the rest of the Industry buffs to null, specifically because it could add to local development. Hi Sec should leave people very wanting in terms of the resources available. Miners who undertake the dangers of null should be rewarded far more than their HS counterparts, I'm happy that this at least has the potential to restore part of the risk/reward paradigm. I just wish more were being done for everyone else, and that ratting in null was rewarded more than its HS counterpart.
Whenever I see a new player venture down into low or null in a mining barge, on some level, they are a bit silly for taking such huge risks, but even as a brand new player, they have an intuition about how things should be - ores in more dangerous places should be more profitable than ones in safer places. Even if they are mining the wrong ore, or doing all of the things wrong to get themselves seen, wrecked, and podded, I can't disagree with the philosophy guiding that intuition. When I think about all the potential for new blood in null, new empires, I'm thrilled that Industry is slowly getting better and more viable out there. I'm just skeptical you will get that many people interested in building, guarding, and living in space which offers them less than Hi Sec, in terms of income. HS incursions break the income paradigm pretty badly; the should be adjusted first.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Matthew Odunen
Rolling Static Gone Critical
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 08:00:13 -
[808] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go. While I recognize the imbalance Incursions contribute to, I don't think it's realistic for ccp to get rid of them. Hell, incursions are a cool concept, just badly implemented. I've been taking a semi-break from null due to real life obligations and running incursions with TVP for 2 weeks. Say that their is little incentive to do anything else is actually wrong, I sold my incursion fit (kept the Mach though) because incursions are so eye bleedingly boring and monotonous I simply can't run another site, even when you contribute by having a roll (I have played sniper anchor and MTAC guy), it's the SAME THING over and over and over again. null anoms are the same, but atleast I can experiment with different ships, come and go when I want and the guys trying to kill you make for interesting times. You get almost none of that in high sec incursions, the only fun to be had is contests and those are rare. The isk is great, at time we've been on pace to make more than 160 mil per hour (and TVP is great with it's automated waitlist meaning that if you have alts like me, you can do something else in the time it takes you to get invited, they even have an out of game browser alarm that blares at you when you get invited, best thing I've ever seen) I'm on the record saying that high sec incursions are wrong and bad and they are. I find it irksome that the SAME Machariel that can be used by me to help push a 100+ mil per hour pace farming in an incursion fleet ( where only the FC is doing any actual thinking/playing) can make AT BEST 750-75 mil per hour farming anomalies in a null sec system that someone had to fight over, conquer and than pay to upgrade including moving a huge ass IHUB. And all of that is still true, I simply don't think people should be making that much combat pve isk in high sec, it cheapens ALL pve outside of high sec with the exception of high end wormholes (which are sill balanced because once those WH anoms are gone, they are gone, incursion sites keep respawning till the incursion is gone) But what is also true is that if you re-nerf incursions (they got nerfed in the past), people just won't do them and it's wasted content/dev time. It's a hell of a wall CCP painted themselves into, damned if you do, damnded if you don't. Personally I'd leave incursions alone with the possible exception of lowering the isk pay out and upping the LP pay out.
The lp is were most of the isk from incursions comes from. for every 1 bil isk you get about 2 bil lp witch stays the same price because it can be used anywere in high sec |
Matthew Odunen
Rolling Static Gone Critical
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 08:09:46 -
[809] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.
---------- FAQ ---------
1-Ganking / Interfere with incursioners
Incursions are 5 years old, there is nothing new about them that someone hasn't thought of and tried in the past to successfully gank incursioners and come out in profit. NO, you won't. NO, there isn't a secret way. Or else there would be plenty of other people doing it already, just think about it, you're not Einstein.
Example most recent fail attempt, 40 machariels with smart bombs, not even 1 incursioners dead, gankers lost billions to concord. Incursioners laughed at you on comms.
2-Make more isks in null / (Insert random wormhole class here)
NO, no you don't. Let's just leave it like that. Null and especially wormholes arent nearly as consistent as incursions. And let's not talk about all the effort, resources and logistics needed, and not mention having to manage capitals in some cases. Oh and the risk.. I don't even wanna go there.
3-Risk being bling ships
What risk? The fact that you are watching titanic and crying about it and forget to broadcast for shields on time?
Also ships aren't as blingy as they once were. People found the sweet spot and most efficient fits in terms of cost/performance nowadays, and to be honest most of them don't even bother with some of the more expensive modules.
4-Station trading
Been there, done that. NO you don't make billions upon billions, don't let people fool you with stories. You need a LOT of effort and work and .01 PvP + being lucky enough there aren't too many traders online to PvP against you. And if the same quantity of people that run incursions would station trade then you wouldn't even make a penny. Also it is WAY too much inconsistent ... And yet STILL you won't make more than incursions on your best day.
Hey good idea why don't you go and ask your Sov holder for a cut of the moon goo profits they make as your one of the people protecting there sov and fighting for the ability to mine it. and if they say know remember that as said by CCP Fozzie and has gone on record saying "we know how much money you make in null, and it's a **** ton,"
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Matthew Odunen
Rolling Static Gone Critical
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 08:37:19 -
[810] - Quote
also for people who care a normal fleet gets about 120 pre 1hr and less if its armor. the best i have seen was 220 mil an hour and that was when the fleet was filled with 2-3 year old vets who have maxed skills , the best implants and know how to do every thing in incursions without a fc barking at them, and when this fleet contested we got 300mil for 1 hour. other wise a normal fleet can reach 200mil per hour max contesting but they have to win all of them and remember that other fleet that lost gets payed nothing so one of two things will happen 1 the other fleet docks up because they cant win or lets you have the sites you want 2 you win some and they win some meaning the fleets still got about the same isk. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15847
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 10:23:38 -
[811] - Quote
Matthew Odunen wrote:
Hey good idea why don't you go and ask your Sov holder for a cut of the moon goo profits they make as your one of the people protecting there sov and fighting for the ability to mine it. and if they say know remember that as said by CCP Fozzie and has gone on record saying "we know how much money you make in null, and it's a **** ton,"
Two points.
Moon income at best is around the same as the income you get from a miner.
Fozzie said null injects more isk, he did not say people in null make the most isk per player.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4535
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 15:02:57 -
[812] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post.
[url=http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/forum-moderation-policy]The Rules:[/url 27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Vedrit
Elite Amarr Navy Academy Varangon Tagma
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 21:59:35 -
[813] - Quote
As a logistic and otherwise industrial-minded player (Call me carebear if you want) the only issue I have about low- or null-sec is that everyone is so gun happy. So why should I want to leave high-sec when I'm more likely to lose more ISK than I would ever make? Throw what numbers at me you want, but those numbers are pointless when I'm given a free ride to home base and a fresh clone. Sure, high sec incs are super profitable. If you don't mind flying half way across the galaxy. Or waiting 2 hours to find a fleet (Where are all the armor fleets at?!!) Or waiting another 2 hours for the fleet to congregate in the same system. Or another hour for everyone to get fitted and aligned to the site, only to find that another fleet beat you to the punch, so some pilots drop from fleet and you're almost back to square 1.
Sure, sounds really good.
Incursioners might go in to low-sec more often if it weren't for the very reason you want them there; to shoot at. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
37137
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 22:55:27 -
[814] - Quote
Vedrit wrote:Incursioners might go in to low-sec more often if it weren't for the very reason you want them there; to shoot at. I don't get that same impression from the discussion here.
From the bulk of the thread I don't think anyone has expressed a view that they want to force anyone to leave highsec that doesn't want to. It's more a case of creating the environment that not only supports the people that already live in nullsec, but that also provides incentive for others that would like to live there if they could sustain themselves.
There's just different views on how to make null more attractive. Clearly from this thread, one option is to nerf the high paying income sources that pose little risk, so that higher incomes are the reward for taking higher risk.
But there's no need to use a stick method - come to null so we can kill you - when a carrot is a better option - come to null because the rewards for taking the risks are worth it.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12956
|
Posted - 2015.05.10 22:58:27 -
[815] - Quote
Vedrit wrote: Incursioners might go in to low-sec more often if it weren't for the very reason you want them there; to shoot at.
Isn't that exactly the problem? That you're raking in this kind of money without any real risk?
You can be that horribly risk averse if you want, but you damn sure should not be making this kind of money doing it. That should absolutely be reserved for people who do take on risk.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
279
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 00:42:20 -
[816] - Quote
Vedrit wrote:So why should I want to leave high-sec when I'm more likely to lose more ISK than I would ever make?
That's exactly the point. There is no incentive to leave Hi Sec. The amount of income you should be able to make out in low, NPC null, and Sov Null, with the average losses you will incur factored in, should exceed what you are able to do In Hi Sec by a healthy margin. It doesn't. I'm actually thrilled that some of the ore changes may eventually/may be having an effect on Hi Sec mining - even after replacing a few barges, it should be more profitable per hour to mine in null than it should be in Hi. Risk should be rewarded - it is not, but maybe we are headed there.
Let's do a hypothetical. Let's say an Ishtar running anomalies makes about 60m/hr optimally. However, lets say, oh, on average, every 14 hours of ratting, the Ishtar is ganked and destroyed, and for every 3 hours of ratting, one hour is spent either in system defense, or docked up. so over a 24 hour period of ratting 18 hours can be actually run, and the ishtar will be killed 1.28 times. So over those 24 ratting hours, 1.08 billion was made, and ~320m worth of ships was lost, making the entire take 760m/24 hours, or as low as 32m isk/hour.
Hi Sec Incursions make, lets say, 90m isk/hr running in an optimal setting. While there is set up time per incursion, this is mitigated by them lasting so long and farming continuing after the influence bar is maxed. Out of 24 hours of available incursion running time, lets say fully 1/3 of the time is wasted on form ups and moving - this is probably no where near where a disciplined group can get it, so if anything this hypothetical is under reporting the true profits here. So 16 hours out of 24 times 90m/hr is 1.44 billion isk take home over 24 hours, no lost ships, and we get ~60m/hr, even when we waste fully 1/3 of the time.
To make null viable, either the Hi Sec number has to be lowered, or the Null Sec number be made competitive and exceed the Hi Sec one. One could make the same hypothetical with miners and ore, which is why miners traditionally stayed in Hi Sec - the rewards were not great enough elsewhere to justify the risks. The Ishtar pilot is creating or participating in player made content as well, as a priceless intangible benefit. Personally, i'd rather see a sneaky and brave miner be able to vastly out compete his or her competitors out in null, and have a game which rewards that. It would also be nice to reward those who make content by exposing themselves to risk. It would also be nice to have Null Sec worth taking for line members. Previously, the issue with null empires is that you both A)Couldn't take the space if you wanted it and B)The people who owned the space didnt really want it either. A has been addressed by the previous few patches and the incoming patches more and more, but B hasn't really been talked about at all. If you want people to build new empires to challenge the old, you have to make those empires valuable enough so the resources are there to do so.
And again, I'm curious. If you won't leave Hi Sec, if you realize how much better the near absolute safety is versus how the rewards, how can you expect the new null to work, given the stifling income disparity?
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8508
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 02:35:22 -
[817] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Vedrit wrote: Incursioners might go in to low-sec more often if it weren't for the very reason you want them there; to shoot at.
Isn't that exactly the problem? That you're raking in this kind of money without any real risk? You can be that horribly risk averse if you want, but you damn sure should not be making this kind of money doing it. That should absolutely be reserved for people who do take on risk.
There's a whole lot more risk running high sec incursions than there is in being a CODE logistics pilot. That's about as risk averse as it gets.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8508
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 02:37:49 -
[818] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Vedrit wrote:So why should I want to leave high-sec when I'm more likely to lose more ISK than I would ever make? That's exactly the point. There is no incentive to leave Hi Sec. Yet thousands upon thousands of pilots actually do leave high sec. Explain that for me.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15857
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 02:51:53 -
[819] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote: Yet thousands upon thousands of pilots actually do leave high sec. Explain that for me.
Nullsec is where the stories happen, it sure as hell isn't for the income.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8508
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 02:57:17 -
[820] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mr Epeen wrote: Yet thousands upon thousands of pilots actually do leave high sec. Explain that for me.
Nullsec is where the stories happen, it sure as hell isn't for the income.
So high sec for ISK and null sec for stories. Seems like a fair trade to me. Be a rich nobody or a poor but cool somebody with a rich nobody alt.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
279
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 03:33:58 -
[821] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Epeen wrote: Yet thousands upon thousands of pilots actually do leave high sec. Explain that for me.
Nullsec is where the stories happen, it sure as hell isn't for the income. So high sec for ISK and null sec for stories. Seems like a fair trade to me. Be a rich nobody or a poor but cool somebody with a rich nobody alt. Mr Epeen
...which basically means we are back to EvE being a theme park rather than a sandbox, where HS is for safe PvE farming, and nullsec is for elite battleground pvp. Somehow, I think EvE was meant to be different than that. Big ideas. A Big Universe. Player made entities crashing into one another in the conquest of space, resources, and power. Decisions defining who you are in this new and different world.
Nope.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Madd Adda
89
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 03:37:52 -
[822] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Epeen wrote: Yet thousands upon thousands of pilots actually do leave high sec. Explain that for me.
Nullsec is where the stories happen, it sure as hell isn't for the income. So high sec for ISK and null sec for stories. Seems like a fair trade to me. Be a rich nobody or a poor but cool somebody with a rich nobody alt. Mr Epeen ...which basically means we are back to EvE being a theme park rather than a sandbox, where HS is for safe PvE farming, and nullsec is for elite battleground pvp. Somehow, I think EvE was meant to be different than that. Big ideas. A Big Universe. Player made entities crashing into one another in the conquest of space, resources, and power. Decisions defining who you are in this new and different world. Nope. and what stops you from adding risk to incursions? a couple of catas should have enough to blow up incursion logis, then watch as they either scramble to wrap away/attack you or the NPC shred them
Carebear extraordinaire
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8508
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 03:39:20 -
[823] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:
...which basically means we are back to EvE being a theme park rather than a sandbox, where HS is for safe PvE farming, and nullsec is for elite battleground pvp.
EVE has never been a theme park. High sec has never been safe. Null sec is not even close to being the elite.
Are we even playing the same game?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Avaelica Kuershin
59
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 05:15:58 -
[824] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote: and what stops you from adding risk to incursions? a couple of catas should have enough to blow up incursion logis, then watch as they either scramble to wrap away/attack you or the NPC shred them
Think you'd need more than a couple of catalysts, but the general idea should work, and quite cheaply too. E-war as well.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2134
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 05:25:32 -
[825] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:*snip*
Except for the faulty and misrepresentative maths. Firstly you used two different scenario's and compared a different length of income gathering.
In your examples the Ishtar is actually 42/hour. And this assumes you are a bad enough ishtar pilot to get ganked every 12 hours..... which I'm very very sure is not the average rate. You are also only placing 320 Million at risk in a purely solo endeavour and solo endeavours should pay less. If you do not take any losses (which is why you use an Ishtar, not a Battleship so you can align and warp to safety much faster.) then you earn.... hey, wouldn't you know it. 60/hour. If you run Incursions and don't lose a ship, hey, we have the same 60/hour! Except in this case you are using a couple of billion isk ship, and are running in a 40 man fleet highly reliant on other people for your safety. And if you take a loss over the same 18 hour income period, you actually take a net loss, not a profit at all. And you can't run 18 hours, only 17, because you then have to haul your ass out to Null in an interceptor for an hour in order to take part in the defence fleets.
So... Using your maths all you have actually shown is that if you are bad enough to lose a ship, you don't make as much money. And that even using a weaker cheaper ship & running a pure solo activity you make as much in Null once you actually take real time into account rather than the perfect best ticks/hour.
*queue excuses about how Incursion income was lowballed and Null income was Highballed.... Now!* |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6635
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 05:45:14 -
[826] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Vedrit wrote:So why should I want to leave high-sec when I'm more likely to lose more ISK than I would ever make? That's exactly the point. There is no incentive to leave Hi Sec. The amount of income you should be able to make out in low, NPC null, and Sov Null, with the average losses you will incur factored in, should exceed what you are able to do In Hi Sec by a healthy margin. It doesn't. I'm actually thrilled that some of the ore changes may eventually/may be having an effect on Hi Sec mining - even after replacing a few barges, it should be more profitable per hour to mine in null than it should be in Hi. Risk should be rewarded - it is not, but maybe we are headed there. Let's do a hypothetical. Let's say an Ishtar running anomalies makes about 60m/hr optimally. However, lets say, oh, on average, every 14 hours of ratting, the Ishtar is ganked and destroyed, and for every 3 hours of ratting, one hour is spent either in system defense, or docked up. so over a 24 hour period of ratting 18 hours can be actually run, and the ishtar will be killed 1.28 times. So over those 24 ratting hours, 1.08 billion was made, and ~320m worth of ships was lost, making the entire take 760m/24 hours, or as low as 32m isk/hour. Hi Sec Incursions make, lets say, 90m isk/hr running in an optimal setting. While there is set up time per incursion, this is mitigated by them lasting so long and farming continuing after the influence bar is maxed. Out of 24 hours of available incursion running time, lets say fully 1/3 of the time is wasted on form ups and moving - this is probably no where near where a disciplined group can get it, so if anything this hypothetical is under reporting the true profits here. So 16 hours out of 24 times 90m/hr is 1.44 billion isk take home over 24 hours, no lost ships, and we get ~60m/hr, even when we waste fully 1/3 of the time. To make null viable, either the Hi Sec number has to be lowered, or the Null Sec number be made competitive and exceed the Hi Sec one. One could make the same hypothetical with miners and ore, which is why miners traditionally stayed in Hi Sec - the rewards were not great enough elsewhere to justify the risks. The Ishtar pilot is creating or participating in player made content as well, as a priceless intangible benefit. Personally, i'd rather see a sneaky and brave miner be able to vastly out compete his or her competitors out in null, and have a game which rewards that. It would also be nice to reward those who make content by exposing themselves to risk. It would also be nice to have Null Sec worth taking for line members. Previously, the issue with null empires is that you both A)Couldn't take the space if you wanted it and B)The people who owned the space didnt really want it either. A has been addressed by the previous few patches and the incoming patches more and more, but B hasn't really been talked about at all. If you want people to build new empires to challenge the old, you have to make those empires valuable enough so the resources are there to do so. And again, I'm curious. If you won't leave Hi Sec, if you realize how much better the near absolute safety is versus how the rewards, how can you expect the new null to work, given the stifling income disparity?
Some time ago, Gallente ships were a joke. You see the range on them that utilized their bonuses pretty much had you being webbed so bad it felt like you anchored it and then you get picked off by snipers. There were a lot of "Why you no like Gallente, CCP?" threads and around that time the term "Winmatar" was common in FW.
The first buff had nothing to do with any direct improvement to Gallente ships. It was the micro jump drive. A module that puts the blasters into face melting range.
You see, indirect buff is the key here.
Nullsec has had indirect nerfs. Mainly in the form of making it way too easy to catch people. Nobody said "nerf nullsec" and the devs never said "we're nerfing nullsec". But the changes to warp speed, bubble immune inties, removal of deep safes, and now d-scan immune recons. Also, the Ishtar "scourge" to consider. And now the 1000 DPS gecko (though that's arguable).
So yeah. But I have seen this argument in countless "CCP move level 4 to lowsec why you no like gankers" threads. You see if the cost factor is affected by PVP, even someone who tries to like losing a ship once a day simply cannot keep at it. The cost factors you bring up are valid.
Were it up to me there would be more rewards for securing nullsec space with almost no cap on player resource and effort investment. But it's possible the game is worked into a corner with the interaction around having a central production and market spot like Jita. The "need" for this must be replaced with something before it's removed.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Madd Adda
89
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 05:48:41 -
[827] - Quote
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:Madd Adda wrote: and what stops you from adding risk to incursions? a couple of catas should have enough to blow up incursion logis, then watch as they either scramble to wrap away/attack you or the NPC shred them
Think you'd need more than a couple of catalysts, but the general idea should work, and quite cheaply too. E-war as well.
exactly. people are crying to CCP at "the lack of risk" ,but they themselves can add that risk. Isn't that what CCP wants? For players to add risk to the game through their actions?
target jumping the logi would be funny to watch, assuming they get jammed
Carebear extraordinaire
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2134
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 05:54:56 -
[828] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote: exactly. people are crying to CCP at "the lack of risk" ,but they themselves can add that risk. Isn't that what CCP wants? For players to add risk to the game through their actions?
target jumping the logi would be funny to watch, assuming they get jammed
I think you'll find that Incursions grew through the era of people trolling their fleets regularly, though some of the new fat cats who do nothing else rather than use incursions to fund other fun might panic about it. The real 'issue' is that despite all the trolling, incursion communities actually did HTFU & Adapted, and now the gankers have found they can't kill them so are trying to get CCP to do it for them. |
Lew Dicrous
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
19
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 06:31:01 -
[829] - Quote
I'm genuinely surprised that with the mountain of isk/LP that could be tapped from null incursions, none of the blocs rent out incursion zones in their space. I bet some of the communities would jump all over a zone they could milk uncontested for x amount of days.
It burns when I PVP
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
282
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 07:13:16 -
[830] - Quote
Lew Dicrous wrote:I'm genuinely surprised that with the mountain of isk/LP that could be tapped from null incursions, none of the blocs rent out incursion zones in their space. I bet some of the communities would jump all over a zone they could milk uncontested for x amount of days.
This has been answered several times in the thread, however once more... A)Null incursions last less than a day due to the need to remove them from space because they cyno jam, as opposed to a full week. B)Getting ships to a null incursion, even in the now passing days of sprawling empires, is a challenge, as opposed to trivial. C)Getting one to spawn in your neighborhood is erratic and unreliable, as opposed to always having one(s) up in Hi. D)A concentration of ratters attracts antagonists, and without CONCORD protection, dealing with them is not easy.
I've run incursions in null. It's not nearly as lucrative as you make it out to be, due to a lack of consistency, whereas Hi Sec ones are very consistent.
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:Madd Adda wrote: and what stops you from adding risk to incursions? a couple of catas should have enough to blow up incursion logis, then watch as they either scramble to wrap away/attack you or the NPC shred them
Think you'd need more than a couple of catalysts, but the general idea should work, and quite cheaply too. E-war as well.
This has also been answered a few times in the thread.
Ganking people in gated sites, in Hi Sec, where the rats turn on you is entirely different than traditional miner ganking or freighter ganking. If it was actually doable en-mass as suggested, a ganking entity would have done it already.
Unlike nullsec incursions...where players represent real risk, and have a FAR bigger toolbox of ways to ruin your day.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Big Cyc
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 09:50:04 -
[831] - Quote
i started playing eve not so long ago and incursions for me is a missing shot that deny all other activities.
i expected incursions to be challenging pve content with different objectives but it is only brainless TCRC grind, also it makes so good money that you dont need to do anything else. For now i can easly afford few plexes and ships i cant fly yet.
incursions should be more random with different ship requirements (layout, type and size) so communities have to do a little work how to beat new type of incursions effectively. (EFT warrioring is fun for some ppls :D)
i dont thing making it more risky using some artificial way like increasing damage or adding jams/ewar is good think, just make it more challenging by extending preparations needed for taking new incursions - carebears will be happy, pvps will start do thier stuff in null/wh.
win-win |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15863
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 10:01:12 -
[832] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote: and what stops you from adding risk to incursions? a couple of catas should have enough to blow up incursion logis, then watch as they either scramble to wrap away/attack you or the NPC shred them
There is a reason why gank tactics are not used vs actual fleets with logi support.
In any case the answer to a game imbalance is not to say just have players gank them ineffectively at a huge loss to themselves. After all, that argument could have been used for the tech moon imbalance.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10930
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 12:32:12 -
[833] - Quote
Big Cyc wrote:i started playing eve not so long ago and incursions for me is a missing shot that deny all other activities.
That's a good point. One you can reliably fly a tech1 battleship with named guns (while you train for tech2), there is no compelling reason beyond "I want to" to do anything else. A buddy of mine introduced a friend of his to EVE last year and after a VERY short period of time he was into a maelstrom and into Incursions (with a community that didn't at the time have a SP or birth date minimum.)
He flew that maelstrom for less than a week because the isk he made was good enoguh to get him into a Machariel. Less than a week of incursions for a 3 month old pilot into a Mach... It took me MONTHS in 2008 to get anything better than my t1 raven, and the Navy Raven I bought back then flet liek buying a Super Carrier now, it was special. Now, it's just not.
High Sec incursions as they are now really cheapen the EVE experience in multiple ways. The one I just described, and the fact that there is no incentive beyond boredom for getting out of the high sec comfort zone for people so inclined (some people will never leave high sec, to each his own, I'm talking about the people who would try new things if they had an actual reason to).
That's so different from how it was when I started. If you wanted anything more than lvl 4 mission income you had to do out and get it, and that made the game stick to you because risk and losing ships and the emotions that come with that are the things that make people stay, not "wee I can do things in comfort and safety wee".
Quote: i expected incursions to be challenging pve content with different objectives but it is only brainless TCRC grind, also it makes so good money that you dont need to do anything else. For now i can easly afford few plexes and ships i cant fly yet.
incursions should be more random with different ship requirements (layout, type and size) so communities have to do a little work how to beat new type of incursions effectively. (EFT warrioring is fun for some ppls :D)
i dont thing making it more risky using some artificial way like increasing damage or adding jams/ewar is good think, just make it more challenging by extending preparations needed for taking new incursions - carebears will be happy, pvps will start do thier stuff in null/wh.
win-win
Amen to all of that. I'd love to see Sansha replaced by some form of "Drifter Incursions".
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
562
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 12:34:23 -
[834] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Amen to all of that. I'd love to see Sansha replaced by some form of "Drifter Incursions".
that doesnt solve the issue though because it will just get farmed the same way current incursions are
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10931
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 12:45:35 -
[835] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Amen to all of that. I'd love to see Sansha replaced by some form of "Drifter Incursions". that doesnt solve the issue though because it will just get farmed the same way current incursions are
Maybe not if they keep drifters, well, drifters. I've been fighting drifters and those things are crazy.
One of the big problems with incursions is that they are, in fact, so farmable. A better design would have incursions actually kill player ships from time to time no matter what, encouraging incursion runners to fly less expensive/less blingy ships and learning the lesson that 'sometimes, ships explode'.
Most incursion runners I know have NEVER lost a ship outside of a mass disconnect situation (i asked this question of guys in my community last night before the PLEX for good Football game against TDF). Incursions are so (brokenly) profitable because logistics can make the situation stable enough for people to use 5 billion isk pirate battleships without much worry.
Of course , I think a better option is to let actual people fight for Sansha in some kind of way |
Johny Tyler
Omega Tactical Group Reckoning Star Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 15:13:02 -
[836] - Quote
I don't see how anyone can think it makes sense from a game design perspective to be able to make as much or more isk in HS than in low/null/WH. It just seems obvious to me that the most lucrative activities should take place in more dangerous areas of space.
I would expect a game to be designed in a way that increases income in more hostile environments either linearly or exponentially. I don't understand how it can make sense to so many people that an income graph seems to be something of a parabola in Eve.
I understand easy isk is what a lot of people want, but I can't understand that they think it seems right the way it is.
Also, the fact that people are complaining that easy isk in HS devalues the effort they put into holding sov or keeping a WH running seems easily understandable to me.
Why would anyone think a fleet activity in HS should generate comparable isk to a fleet activity in sov space or a WH?
I just hope the devs are only holding back on rebalancing HS isk until they have sov a bit more sorted out so they have a more legitimate direction to point people towards. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1779
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 16:14:36 -
[837] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Madd Adda wrote: and what stops you from adding risk to incursions? a couple of catas should have enough to blow up incursion logis, then watch as they either scramble to wrap away/attack you or the NPC shred them
There is a reason why gank tactics are not used vs actual fleets with logi support. In any case the answer to a game imbalance is not to say just have players gank them ineffectively at a huge loss to themselves. After all, that argument could have been used for the tech moon imbalance.
What if moon materials was made into a drop from NPC instead of aquired through POS? You would still need to nerf incursions but would that help in maybe making it group content you do in ship instead of just grouping up for a timer if someone dare attack your infrastructure? Could it also provide income to members in larger numbers than 10 ish / systems? |
Antihrist Pripravnik
T-AFK and counting
914
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 16:29:59 -
[838] - Quote
Johny Tyler wrote:I don't see how anyone can think it makes sense from a game design perspective to be able to make as much or more isk in HS than in low/null/WH. It just seems obvious to me that the most lucrative activities should take place in more dangerous areas of space.
I would expect a game to be designed in a way that increases income in more hostile environments either linearly or exponentially. I don't understand how it can make sense to so many people that an income graph seems to be something of a parabola in Eve.
I understand easy isk is what a lot of people want, but I can't understand that they think it seems right the way it is.
Also, the fact that people are complaining that easy isk in HS devalues the effort they put into holding sov or keeping a WH running seems easily understandable to me.
Why would anyone think a fleet activity in HS should generate comparable isk to a fleet activity in sov space or a WH?
I just hope the devs are only holding back on rebalancing HS isk until they have sov a bit more sorted out so they have a more legitimate direction to point people towards. Correct me if I'm wrong, but nullsec has incursions as well and nullsec incursions do have a chance of dropping a faction supercarrier BPC.
As for HS being more profitable than null, that clam is laughable. As someone who has activelly played in Higsec, Lowsec (namely factional warfare), nullsec and W-space my income comparison is W-Space > null > FW > highsec. And that's from 8 years of experience. In my opinion, that's how the income scale should be, since W-space is realistically the most dangerous and inconvenient space to live of them all.
From an alliance perspective, nullsec is even more profitable than any other area of the game, simply because of moon goo. If you want to complain about something that is really unfair in the game, then you shouldn't look past the base material of all tech 2 production being exclusive to one region of the game.
But of course, incursions represent individual income, while moon goo is alliance income which is not that well seen or felt by simple members. It may seem that highsec is "more profitable" simply because of nullsec alliance's policies, which mostly include grunts not having direct income from moon goo and not having a possibility to manage your own POS (for security reasons).
Bottom line is, I am not entirely certain how this thread survived this long without being closed as a troll. I mean the whole point of the thread is that someone thinks that a game mechanic, which is also available in both lowsec and null AND more profitable in those areas than in highsec is merely existing in highsec. What's the main motivation here? Jealousy?
Fun fact: ex Northern coalition (the real BFF coalition, not the alliance with the same name), including to some extent CFC didn't grab half of nullsec by running incursions, but by owning Technetium moons. Even with their superb organisation, that would be much harder to accomplish if it wasn't for monopolized moon goo. |
Tarpedo
Incursionista
1498
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 16:36:55 -
[839] - Quote
One thing which I've learned from MMORPGs - PvPers are the worst whiners and they'll whine forever, they just need to change a "reason" from time to time to do so (common "reasons": lack of PvP, lack of PvP balance, no rewards for PvP, rewards are too high for low effort, etc.).
Incursions are minuscule part of the game compared to other activities in EVE - at any given time there are not more than 200 people doing them. Whole incursions community is 1-2k people out of 350k at best. Incursions don't affect economy on major scale, they don't change anything - but they work perfectly as red cloth for a bull i.e. they distract whiners from really important in-game issues. Just like governments use "war on drugs" theme to distract society from actually important issues (like ineffective governments). Remove incursions - and whiners may accidentally find actually good and important reason to whine.
So you better accept the fact that it's very suitable for CCP to have incursions and they'll be here in present state for a very long time. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10945
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 16:56:37 -
[840] - Quote
Tarpedo wrote:
Incursions are minuscule part of the game compared to other activities in EVE - at any given time there are not more than 200 people doing them. Whole incursions community is 1-2k people out of 350k at best. Incursions don't affect economy on major scale, they don't change anything - but they work perfectly as red cloth for a bull i.e. they distract whiners from really important in-game issues. Just like governments use "war on drugs" theme to distract society from actually important issues (like ineffective governments).
This is the perfect example of denialism (and shifting goal posts) ever.
See, for incursions to be "unblanced", they'd have to have :
A) a lot of people doing them
and
B) Have a bad affect on the economy
Problem is, none of that has anything to do with imbalance. And It's hard to tell which one is dumber. A thing is imbalanced based on it's relationship to other similar things, not on whether or not lots of people do it. What this poster just said is akin to saying "well yea he murdered someone, but since most people will never commit murder, no big deal".
And it's funny that the poster posts saying that the incursion community is small. Another poster in this same thread did that and even helped out by posting this super useful graph.
That's right, despite being, according to Tarpedo, a "Tiny" fraction of the EVE community, incursion rewards are the THIRD BIGGEST ISK FAUCET in the game. It takes 10s 100s of THOUSANDS of mission runners , ratters and anomaly farmers to generate more isk than "1-2k people out of 350k" (Tarpedo's own words).
I'd like to thank Tarpedo for inadvertently demonstrating the gross imbalance she was at that moment trying to deny even existed.
Seems to me that to some people, Denialism is a sport. If it was, this forum would would have many gold medalists. |
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
568
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 17:02:23 -
[841] - Quote
Tarpedo wrote:One thing which I've learned from MMORPGs - PvPers are the worst whiners and they'll whine forever, they just need to change a "reason" from time to time to do so (common "reasons": lack of PvP, lack of PvP balance, no rewards for PvP, rewards are too high for low effort, PvP queues are too long because low performing people left due to rewards nerf, complete lack of PvP - again - and so on).
Incursions are minuscule part of the game compared to other activities in EVE - at any given time there are not more than 200 people doing them. Whole incursions community is 1-2k people out of 350k at best. Incursions don't affect economy on major scale, they don't change anything - but they work perfectly as red cloth for a bull i.e. they distract whiners from really important in-game issues. Just like governments use "war on drugs" theme to distract society from actually important issues (like ineffective governments). Remove incursions - and whiners may accidentally find actually good and important reason to whine.
So you better accept the fact that it's very suitable for CCP to have incursions and they'll be here in present state for a very long time.
Hmm 1-2k people huh, according to the income graph that was posted earlier incursions income was about half of nullsec income, that just shows the incursions unbalanced and overpaid if 1-2k pilots can make around half of what the whole of nullsec can
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1779
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 17:04:12 -
[842] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Tarpedo wrote:
Incursions are minuscule part of the game compared to other activities in EVE - at any given time there are not more than 200 people doing them. Whole incursions community is 1-2k people out of 350k at best. Incursions don't affect economy on major scale, they don't change anything - but they work perfectly as red cloth for a bull i.e. they distract whiners from really important in-game issues. Just like governments use "war on drugs" theme to distract society from actually important issues (like ineffective governments).
This is the perfect example of denialism (and shifting goal posts) ever. See, for incursions to be "unblanced", they'd have to have : A) a lot of people doing them and B) Have a bad affect on the economy Problem is, none of that has anything to do with imbalance. And It's hard to tell which one is dumber. A thing is imbalanced based on it's relationship to other similar things, not on whether or not lots of people do it. What this poster just said is akin to saying "well yea he murdered someone, but since most people will never commit murder, no big deal". And it's funny that the poster posts saying that the incursion community is small. Another poster in this same thread did that and even helped out by posting this super useful graph. That's right, despite being, according to Tarpedo, a "Tiny" fraction of the EVE community, incursion rewards are the THIRD BIGGEST ISK FAUCET in the game. It takes 10s 100s of THOUSANDS of mission runners , ratters and anomaly farmers to generate more isk than "1-2k people out of 350k" (Tarpedo's own words). I'd like to thank Tarpedo for inadvertently demonstrating the gross imbalance she was at that moment trying to deny even existed. Seems to me that to some people, Denialism is a sport. If it was, this forum would would have many gold medalists.
But it has a CAP!!!
But yeah, slash the income. Just don't actually state a reasons since all that were provided can be shown to be sketchy with stats from the game...
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
8170
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 17:08:15 -
[843] - Quote
I still woud like to see them rebalanced, so they are not such ISK farm in High sec. only occasional party friendly sites with decent payouts. Something similar to Drifter activity, they spawn, kill some people, gank few on the gate, and you have to get rid of them, then some more spawn that will help their Sansha brothers, and after they are defeated, they are gone.
Custom ship skins | Since 2014 | Character creator style "repaint" | Bring back the dream
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Kira Kaliandra
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 17:12:54 -
[844] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:Johny Tyler wrote:I don't see how anyone can think it makes sense from a game design perspective to be able to make as much or more isk in HS than in low/null/WH. It just seems obvious to me that the most lucrative activities should take place in more dangerous areas of space.
I would expect a game to be designed in a way that increases income in more hostile environments either linearly or exponentially. I don't understand how it can make sense to so many people that an income graph seems to be something of a parabola in Eve.
I understand easy isk is what a lot of people want, but I can't understand that they think it seems right the way it is.
Also, the fact that people are complaining that easy isk in HS devalues the effort they put into holding sov or keeping a WH running seems easily understandable to me.
Why would anyone think a fleet activity in HS should generate comparable isk to a fleet activity in sov space or a WH?
I just hope the devs are only holding back on rebalancing HS isk until they have sov a bit more sorted out so they have a more legitimate direction to point people towards. Correct me if I'm wrong, but nullsec has incursions as well and nullsec incursions do have a chance of dropping a faction supercarrier BPC. As for HS being more profitable than null, that clam is laughable. As someone who has activelly played in Higsec, Lowsec (namely factional warfare), nullsec and W-space my income comparison is W-Space > null > FW > highsec. And that's from 8 years of experience. In my opinion, that's how the income scale should be, since W-space is realistically the most dangerous and inconvenient space to live of them all. From an alliance perspective, nullsec is even more profitable than any other area of the game, simply because of moon goo. If you want to complain about something that is really unfair in the game, then you shouldn't look past the base material of all tech 2 production being exclusive to one region of the game. But of course, incursions represent individual income, while moon goo is alliance income which is not that well seen or felt by simple members. It may seem that highsec is "more profitable" simply because of nullsec alliance's policies, which mostly include grunts not having direct income from moon goo and not having a possibility to manage your own POS (for security reasons). Bottom line is, I am not entirely certain how this thread survived this long without being closed as a troll. I mean the whole point of the thread is that someone thinks that a game mechanic, which is also available in both lowsec and null AND more profitable in those areas than in highsec is merely existing in highsec. What's the main motivation here? Jealousy? Fun fact: ex Northern coalition (the real BFF coalition, not the alliance with the same name), including to some extent CFC didn't grab half of nullsec by running incursions, but by owning Technetium moons. Even with their superb organisation, that would be much harder to accomplish if it wasn't for monopolized moon goo.
This.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10945
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 17:13:08 -
[845] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but nullsec has incursions as well and nullsec incursions do have a chance of dropping a faction supercarrier BPC.
The nearest null sec incursion to where my ratting alt is sitting is 52 jumps away. You might have ONE null incursion come close to you each year living in null. Even then it's not as profitable to run as one in high sec bacuse you won't be using 5 bil isk deadspace fit pirate hulls to do them.
The only people who talk about null incursion are people who've never run them.
Quote: As for HS being more profitable than null, that clam is laughable. As someone who has activelly played in Higsec, Lowsec (namely factional warfare), nullsec and W-space my income comparison is W-Space > null > FW > highsec. And that's from 8 years of experience. In my opinion, that's how the income scale should be, since W-space is realistically the most dangerous and inconvenient space to live of them all.
I've played for 8 years as well and done every kind of PVE the game has. You are lying about everything except wormhole space. This post is actually closer to the truth.. Even with having to wait a bit for my faction to get to the right 'tier', FW is the best, followed by incursions. Anoms and npc null missions pale in comparison.
Quote: From an alliance perspective, nullsec is even more profitable than any other area of the game, simply because of moon goo. If you want to complain about something that is really unfair in the game, then you shouldn't look past the base material of all tech 2 production being exclusive to one region of the game.
But of course, incursions represent individual income, while moon goo is alliance income which is not that well seen or felt by simple members. It may seem that highsec is "more profitable" simply because of nullsec alliance's policies, which mostly include grunts not having direct income from moon goo and not having a possibility to manage your own POS (for security reasons).
The reason this part is untrue is because you don't have to be a part of an alliance to do pve in sov null. The imblances described in this thread can be felt even by 'ninja ratters' who are not a part of any alliance.
Quote: Bottom line is, I am not entirely certain how this thread survived this long without being closed as a troll. I mean the whole point of the thread is that someone thinks that a game mechanic, which is also available in both lowsec and null AND more profitable in those areas than in highsec is merely existing in highsec. What's the main motivation here? Jealousy?
I can't speak for the OP, but my motivation is for a game that makes sense. I am (unlike most of you deniers) a PVE player and I run high sec incursions every night. It is bad game design for me to be able to take a Machariel into a fleet (where the FC is doing all the work) and make twice (150 mil per hour on a good night) what i make with the SAME hull (mach) in space I and hunderds of others had to fight for (mach in anomalies does 75-78 mil per hour, with no CONCORD or logi wing to save me, and no FC to tell me exactly what to do and tag targets for me).
Quote: Fun fact: ex Northern coalition (the real BFF coalition, not the alliance with the same name), including to some extent CFC didn't grab half of nullsec by running incursions, but by owning Technetium moons. Even with their superb organization, that would be much harder to accomplish if it wasn't for monopolized moon goo.
Moons have nothing to do with this particular gross imbalance, in the same way moons have nothing to do with how F'd up faction warfare missions are.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15868
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 18:01:52 -
[846] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote: Fun fact: ex Northern coalition (the real BFF coalition, not the alliance with the same name), including to some extent CFC didn't grab half of nullsec by running incursions, but by owning Technetium moons. Even with their superb organisation, that would be much harder to accomplish if it wasn't for monopolized moon goo.
Fun fact:
Ice miners earn more per month than a moon tower does.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Johny Tyler
Omega Tactical Group Reckoning Star Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 18:50:01 -
[847] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:Johny Tyler wrote:I don't see how anyone can think it makes sense from a game design perspective to be able to make as much or more isk in HS than in low/null/WH. It just seems obvious to me that the most lucrative activities should take place in more dangerous areas of space.
I would expect a game to be designed in a way that increases income in more hostile environments either linearly or exponentially. I don't understand how it can make sense to so many people that an income graph seems to be something of a parabola in Eve.
I understand easy isk is what a lot of people want, but I can't understand that they think it seems right the way it is.
Also, the fact that people are complaining that easy isk in HS devalues the effort they put into holding sov or keeping a WH running seems easily understandable to me.
Why would anyone think a fleet activity in HS should generate comparable isk to a fleet activity in sov space or a WH?
I just hope the devs are only holding back on rebalancing HS isk until they have sov a bit more sorted out so they have a more legitimate direction to point people towards. Correct me if I'm wrong, but nullsec has incursions as well and nullsec incursions do have a chance of dropping a faction supercarrier BPC. As for HS being more profitable than null, that clam is laughable. As someone who has activelly played in Higsec, Lowsec (namely factional warfare), nullsec and W-space my income comparison is W-Space > null > FW > highsec. And that's from 8 years of experience. In my opinion, that's how the income scale should be, since W-space is realistically the most dangerous and inconvenient space to live of them all. From an alliance perspective, nullsec is even more profitable than any other area of the game, simply because of moon goo. If you want to complain about something that is really unfair in the game, then you shouldn't look past the base material of all tech 2 production being exclusive to one region of the game. But of course, incursions represent individual income, while moon goo is alliance income which is not that well seen or felt by simple members. It may seem that highsec is "more profitable" simply because of nullsec alliance's policies, which mostly include grunts not having direct income from moon goo and not having a possibility to manage your own POS (for security reasons). Bottom line is, I am not entirely certain how this thread survived this long without being closed as a troll. I mean the whole point of the thread is that someone thinks that a game mechanic, which is also available in both lowsec and null AND more profitable in those areas than in highsec is merely existing in highsec. What's the main motivation here? Jealousy? Fun fact: ex Northern coalition (the real BFF coalition, not the alliance with the same name), including to some extent CFC didn't grab half of nullsec by running incursions, but by owning Technetium moons. Even with their superb organisation, that would be much harder to accomplish if it wasn't for monopolized moon goo.
I obviously can't say how you make your best isk.
I can however say that as someone who generally funds my own pvp ships without help from SRP and who has often used isk to plex my 2 active accounts that HS incursions are the overall best way I have found to pay for plex. I would expect a full on grindfest of a c5 corp would make more but I have not been in one of those. I have however lived in c5 - c3 space extensively. I used to run DED sites to fund my plex when I was living in sov null, and have also killed plenty of anom rats. In those cases I did still make plenty of isk but the hassle, effort and risk were all much more than what running incursions require. I was in FW before there was much money to be made at it and I was still low SP so have not seen how that compares now.
So my opinion from my experience is HS incursions seems unbalanced for the comparative risk, effort, and hassle required. Many other people seem to agree with me. Why would my motivation for my opinion be jealousy? I have an incursion fit ship and make as much money as I want whenever I want it. I still think it is unbalanced. |
Dantelion Shinoni
SQUIDS.
7
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 18:59:30 -
[848] - Quote
The length at which some people are willing to go to justify their personal cash-cow be left alone even at the detriment of the game is frankly quite... disgusting.
I've pretty much have to go through 35 pages of people twisting rationales, putting both hands on their ears, and playing dumb, and all that for what? To somehow convince people that EVE is not a game about risk vs.reward and that in a game that is centered around the accumulation of ISKs having a population able to accumulate such a portion of the total ISKs in such a rapid and risk-averse is fiiiiine.
Seriously though, that this kind of money can be made in high sec is bad, really bad and that from a perspective that few here have factored, the new players. People come to EVE mostly because of the Stories, and the PvP but mostly the Stories. If they learn that something that risk-free (and lame, again no Stories there) generate so much ISKs when they have went through the ganking, the constant paranoia of lower secs, a lot will feel cheated. You pretty much mess with their expectations there.
High-sec Incursions generate no Stories whatsoever for EVE. Wooo you farmed Sansha's minions for the Xth times, that's great!! Nobody cares actually and it's pretty clear you wouldn't either if it was not for the amount of ISKs you can make in total safety.
When I started I could quickly see that if I wanted to get more ISKs I had to go out there in lower sec, I mined Scordite and now I desired Kernite. I did go in low sec for that Kernite, and got ganked. Lesson learned. But that's when I realized I found a game that had something that I was searching for since That game, if you do things right you are rewarded, if you **** up you die instead of being showered in epics (most of the time).
Nothing should make so much money in high-sec that the people doing it wouldn't feel the desire to get more out of it even at the risk of facing lower sec, that seems contrary to what this game seems to be good at.
No amount of spinning and 'just leave high-sec ALONE!!!" can |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10951
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 19:13:00 -
[849] - Quote
Johny Tyler wrote:
So my opinion from my experience is HS incursions seems unbalanced for the comparative risk, effort, and hassle required. Many other people seem to agree with me. Why would my motivation for my opinion be jealousy? I have an incursion fit ship and make as much money as I want whenever I want it. I still think it is unbalanced.
Same, I'm away from home till late today and when I do, I'm gonna fire up the old incursion boat and hope no one pops all the high sec MOMs like they did yesterday lol. Being able to admit that something you use is unbalanced is a mark of integrity in my opinion, and you can see by this thread that this is something that is missing from many of our peers. Point blank, they aren't interested in the truth (if they were, they'd test the situation for themselves).
They NEED to believe it's some kind of bad motivation (like jealousy, or wanting to push people out of high sec so those people can be targets, I lol'd just typing that it's so stupid)., because that's how they justify in their own minds ignoring a measurable and provable truth.
It would take too much (ego wise) for them to say "I see this is unbalanced relative to the rest of the game, but I hope they don't change it because I benefit from it". While that is a horrible and selfish way to be as a person IMO, at least they would be being honest if they said that, and I could at least respect the honesty. |
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
8
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 19:34:44 -
[850] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Johny Tyler wrote:
So my opinion from my experience is HS incursions seems unbalanced for the comparative risk, effort, and hassle required. Many other people seem to agree with me. Why would my motivation for my opinion be jealousy? I have an incursion fit ship and make as much money as I want whenever I want it. I still think it is unbalanced.
Same, I'm away from home till late today and when I do, I'm gonna fire up the old incursion boat and hope no one pops all the high sec MOMs like they did yesterday lol. Being able to admit that something you use is unbalanced is a mark of integrity in my opinion, and you can see by this thread that this is something that is missing from many of our peers. Point blank, they aren't interested in the truth (if they were, they'd test the situation for themselves). They NEED to believe it's some kind of bad motivation (like jealousy, or wanting to push people out of high sec so those people can be targets, I lol'd just typing that it's so stupid)., because that's how they justify in their own minds ignoring a measurable and provable truth. It would take too much (ego wise) for them to say "I see this is unbalanced relative to the rest of the game, but I hope they don't change it because I benefit from it". While that is a horrible and selfish way to be as a person IMO, at least they would be being honest if they said that, and I could at least respect the honesty.
I don't bother with them because of opportunity cost. Someone earlier said they made 300 million isk in 4 hours. If I put my mind to it, I can make that much, or pretty close, doing things in HS that aren't incursions. I'm not going to mention them because people like you would cry wolf when there is no wolf. If anything, 300 million isk in 4 hours seems kind of meh to me personally because it's only a small fraction of the investment in skill points, multi-billion dollar ships, and social engineering required to get to those efficient numbers.
Never mind the fact people throw around isk/hr as a metric for an activity that's not entirely in their control. The only time such a metric matters is when you're blitzing missions in high sec because of the ability to actually sit there every day 23.5 hours a day without actually being interrupted if you wish to do so. Incursions take time to make up for the initial investment required to get into them to achieve these "crazy" payouts. Never mind the fact you can lose your bling and have a pretty big set back.
People aren't trying to lie or be sneaky. They really believe what they are saying just as you are as well. To assume people aren't being honest when there is no real reason to lie (CCP has access to data we do not), is a fault.
I'm going to come out and say this. A man who claims he is wise is not a wise man. |
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
285
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 19:47:33 -
[851] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:Never mind the fact you can lose your bling and have a pretty big set back.
This doesn't become reality with nearly enough frequency to be meaningful, whereas the piles of dead ratting ships actually do need to be appreciably factored into other activities, as well as create content for industrialists and antagonists.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10953
|
Posted - 2015.05.11 19:48:47 -
[852] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:
I don't bother with them because of opportunity cost. Someone earlier said they made 300 million isk in 4 hours. If I put my mind to it, I can make that much, or pretty close, doing things in HS that aren't incursions. I'm not going to mention them because people like you would cry wolf when there is no wolf. If anything, 300 million isk in 4 hours seems kind of meh to me personally because it's only a small fraction of the investment in skill points, multi-billion dollar ships, and social engineering required to get to those efficient numbers.
300 mil in 4 hours is low. and then you go on to base your post on a low ball estimate lol. This is exactly what I'm talking about, you aren't particularly interested in the truth to the point that you aren't even considering what's being discussed.
Also, I've lived in null. The investment is MUCH higher for MUCH LOWER return. While you can make more in a wormhole, the investment is higher still.
Quote: Never mind the fact people throw around isk/hr as a metric for an activity that's not entirely in their control. The only time such a metric matters is when you're blitzing missions in high sec because of the ability to actually sit there every day 23.5 hours a day without actually being interrupted if you wish to do so. Incursions take time to make up for the initial investment required to get into them to achieve these "crazy" payouts. Never mind the fact you can lose your bling and have a pretty big set back.
That's pretty much BS. My incursion ship cost 2 bil total and I bought it 5 weeks ago after the toon i used finished training tech2 Artys. That's not even 15 hours of incursion running and for the last month I've ran at least 2 hours per night for the last month.
That same mach in null sec would have taken 26 hours to recoup it's cost (26 hours without CONCORD on infinite standby) btw. Thank you for helping me demonstrate the imbalance you are in denial about.
Quote: People aren't trying to lie or be sneaky. They really believe what they are saying just as you are as well. To assume people aren't being honest when there is no real reason to lie (CCP has access to data we do not), is a fault.
I'm going to come out and say this. A man who claims he is wise is not a wise man.
Lie or ignorance, the result is the exact same. But being ignorant of a situation and then REFUSING to test the situation for yourself (before you don't want to know the truth) is the exact same as lying. You could see the imbalance for yourself if you wanted to. |
Dantelion Shinoni
SQUIDS.
11
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 00:29:25 -
[853] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote: People aren't trying to lie or be sneaky. They really believe what they are saying just as you are as well. To assume people aren't being honest when there is no real reason to lie (CCP has access to data we do not), is a fault.
There is a very tangible reason to lie, their ISKs/hr is at stake.
I'm surprised, or maybe I'm not, that you don't see that. |
Mario Putzo
1410
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 00:46:51 -
[854] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: That's pretty much BS. My incursion ship cost 2 bil total and I bought it 5 weeks ago after the toon i used finished training tech2 Artys. That's not even 15 hours of incursion running and for the last month I've ran at least 2 hours per night for the last month.
That same mach in null sec would have taken 26 hours to recoup it's cost (26 hours without CONCORD on infinite standby) btw. Thank you for helping me demonstrate the imbalance you are in denial about.
Sounds to me that is a problem with NS then and not HS Incursions. You seem to really ignore the man hour value.
10 man groups is 150 man hours 40 man groups is 600 man hours.
You think 1 person in NS should earn the same per hour? One person in LS? One person in HS?.
The time investment for incusrions is much higher than any other PVE event in EVE.
EVE is a solo game though right?
Your arguments don't even make sense anymore. |
Vedrit
Elite Amarr Navy Academy Varangon Tagma
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 01:28:27 -
[855] - Quote
I'm still going to stand by my opinion of "You want the money-making to move to null? Stop shooting people." It's really simple. |
Johny Tyler
Omega Tactical Group Reckoning Star Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 01:39:28 -
[856] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: That's pretty much BS. My incursion ship cost 2 bil total and I bought it 5 weeks ago after the toon i used finished training tech2 Artys. That's not even 15 hours of incursion running and for the last month I've ran at least 2 hours per night for the last month.
That same mach in null sec would have taken 26 hours to recoup it's cost (26 hours without CONCORD on infinite standby) btw. Thank you for helping me demonstrate the imbalance you are in denial about.
Sounds to me that is a problem with NS then and not HS Incursions. You seem to really ignore the man hour value. 10 man groups is 150 man hours 40 man groups is 600 man hours. You think 1 person in NS should earn the same per hour? One person in LS? One person in HS?. The time investment for incusrions is much higher than any other PVE event in EVE. EVE is a solo game though right? Your arguments don't even make sense anymore.
Right because securing space you can rat in a macherial is a solo endeavor... security, logistics, CTAs, diplo stuff, pos stuff, etc. You probably won't deal with it all personally but there is typically a lot of work from a lot of people going into living outside of high sec. In WH there is even some added chain mapping, WH rolling, and constant vigilance which is required. You can't just settle in and make isk constantly. There is always a roaming gang coming through or a WH rolling into your system. It can be fun to live in a challenging environment, but if I want isk for less effort I go incursions. Just mute the idiots crying about leaving their drones and follow broadcasts, rinse and repeat. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10953
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 01:42:13 -
[857] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: That's pretty much BS. My incursion ship cost 2 bil total and I bought it 5 weeks ago after the toon i used finished training tech2 Artys. That's not even 15 hours of incursion running and for the last month I've ran at least 2 hours per night for the last month.
That same mach in null sec would have taken 26 hours to recoup it's cost (26 hours without CONCORD on infinite standby) btw. Thank you for helping me demonstrate the imbalance you are in denial about.
Sounds to me that is a problem with NS then and not HS Incursions. You seem to really ignore the man hour value. 10 man groups is 150 man hours 40 man groups is 600 man hours. You think 1 person in NS should earn the same per hour? One person in LS? One person in HS?. The time investment for incusrions is much higher than any other PVE event in EVE. EVE is a solo game though right? Your arguments don't even make sense anymore.
So since we are including man hours, you need to include the man hours needed to take the system. To upgrade it. To keep yourself supplied with things like ammo. Because like incursions, I can do what I do in nll with others doing things too.
Or we could stay on point, I am a SINGLE PILOT. As a single pilot, my choice is "join incursion fleet" and make isk, or log in null character, and make less. Or log in faction warfare Bomber alt with less than 10 mil SP and make more than either.
Lets not pretend that you actually care about the state of EVE PVE overall and tell the truth that you are simply a high sec partisan trying to selfishly defend your own wallet regardless of the bad affects the imbalances have on things.
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
359
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 02:10:49 -
[858] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Lew Dicrous wrote:Just add a PVP mechanic to contesting sites. ...But if you just want to kill off hisec incursions, then just make the system control drop the security rating to 0.1. No runners will go near them.
Lew you might have hit on something magical there... What if when an incursion starts in a system its sec level did drop to losec 0.4 level, for the duration of the incursion? Talk about a meaningful mechanic and good counter-balance to the farming going on today! You would have carebears evaccing, glorious gate camps and delicious temporary anarchy. It would be...GLORIOUS! Hell, incursions would even then actually mean something to non-incursion runners transitting system, beyond just frakking up their screen color pallette (and splooging an annoying chat window in face...) Naysayers can't say this wouldn't work, just remember the battle of Luminaire a while back when CONCORD was suspended in there for a day or so. It was dynamic CONTENT, in an often content-void hisec. CCP, DO THIS. Do it NAOW. F
Feel such a system would create far greater than it would "destroy".
Economic & Universal impact would be limited, as the number of systems affected is limited.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15874
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 02:12:39 -
[859] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:The time investment for incusrions is much higher than any other PVE event in EVE.
So are you now going to ignore the fact that people in null will be spending time taking, upgrading and defending their space in order to have their PVE in the first place?
Highsec incursion pilots have nothing in either time or money invested.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 02:16:12 -
[860] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: That's pretty much BS. My incursion ship cost 2 bil total and I bought it 5 weeks ago after the toon i used finished training tech2 Artys. That's not even 15 hours of incursion running and for the last month I've ran at least 2 hours per night for the last month.
That same mach in null sec would have taken 26 hours to recoup it's cost (26 hours without CONCORD on infinite standby) btw. Thank you for helping me demonstrate the imbalance you are in denial about.
Sounds to me that is a problem with NS then and not HS Incursions. You seem to really ignore the man hour value. 10 man groups is 150 man hours 40 man groups is 600 man hours. You think 1 person in NS should earn the same per hour? One person in LS? One person in HS?. The time investment for incusrions is much higher than any other PVE event in EVE. EVE is a solo game though right? Your arguments don't even make sense anymore. So since we are including man hours, you need to include the man hours needed to take the system. To upgrade it. To keep yourself supplied with things like ammo. Because like incursions, I can do what I do in null with others doing things too. Or we could stay on point, I am a SINGLE PILOT. As a single pilot, my choice is "join incursion fleet" and make isk, or log in null character, and make less. Or log in faction warfare Bomber alt with less than 10 mil SP and make more than either. Lets not pretend that you actually care about the state of EVE PVE overall and tell the truth that you are simply a high sec partisan trying to selfishly defend your own wallet regardless of the bad affects the imbalances have on things.
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15874
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 02:20:40 -
[861] - Quote
Kashadin wrote:
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord.
Nah, its from running FW missions.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1448
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 02:24:27 -
[862] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kashadin wrote:
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord.
Nah, its from running FW missions. I thought the implication was selling faction LP being other players through the market. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15874
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 02:29:05 -
[863] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kashadin wrote:
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord.
Nah, its from running FW missions. I thought the implication was selling faction LP being other players through the market.
Ah I thought he was thinking blowing up other people.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 02:34:23 -
[864] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kashadin wrote:
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord.
Nah, its from running FW missions. I thought the implication was selling faction LP being other players through the market. Ah I thought he was thinking blowing up other people.
Nope, like Tyberius Franklin said, I meant that the majority of the ISK that you make from FW are from getting the LP and selling the items. Hell, at first the ISK from the missions is what lets you start to sell the items. I did the FW bomber grind thing for a while on a alt, was boring and took a while but made good ISK.
Still, I prefer to do WH or null exploration as a source of ISK. More exciting by far, even if the payout isn't as consistent. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15874
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 02:55:59 -
[865] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:You seem to really ignore the man hour value.
10 man groups is 150 man hours 40 man groups is 600 man hours.
This is what 113,220(based upon 7,548 pilots and your calculations) man hours looks like.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Johny Tyler
Omega Tactical Group Reckoning Star Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 03:13:00 -
[866] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:You seem to really ignore the man hour value.
10 man groups is 150 man hours 40 man groups is 600 man hours.
This is what 113,220(based upon 7,548 pilots and your calculations) man hours looks like.
omg lol someone show whoever took the picture how to clean up this mess... holy drone cloud
also things don't look so good for the corpie in the middle there... one lonely green star |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10953
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 03:27:22 -
[867] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kashadin wrote:
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord.
Nah, its from running FW missions.
This.
I don't know what possess people who don't know what they are talking about to post in threads lol. LP doesn't come from players, it comes from the game. |
Vennicea
VVV Enterprises
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 03:28:31 -
[868] - Quote
There are some valid arguments above for either side of this discussion.
One factor that I think many of the anti-incursion side of the fence appear to ignore are the non-ISK benefits of people running incursions.
From what I have seen most people move into incursion fleets as a progression from running Level 4 missions. These people learn how to fit their ships properly & as they build up their ISK they shiny up their ships. Many will train up &/or purchase a second or third character to run as logi/support.
Sure some people will stay around & grind away at incursions, but there are other people who grind away at mining, trading etc etc. After all EvE seems to cater for the obsessive compulsive weakness many have. From my experience most people who try out incursions fade away after several months.
While incursion income runs at about 100-150M per hour, what many people do not factor in is travelling time, waiting time & time when there is no fleet at all. I don't have actual figures but I reckon half my time in incursions is spent doing "nothing", so my effective income drops by up to half. Add to that that most serious or even semi-serious incursion runners have 2 or 3 characters tied up then some simple math makes your actual per hour ISK income dreadful.
So why do people continue to run incursions? The answer to that is simple - it's called "community".
Various groups of people have gravitated into many little (& some not so little) communities. These end up as groups of like-minded individuals who (generally) have a degree of camaraderie & friendship that you cannot find in EvE easily. All of this outside the rigid corporation/alliance structure which is what turns many people off life in null.
In my case & probably most others, I can make ISK more easily doing other things. I choose to run incursions because I like the people I fly with & I have a sense of duty to repay them for the knowledge & support that they have given me previously. There are many incursion runners who think the same.
So if you anti-incursion people get your way & CCP nerfs incursion income it will not affect me. I will continue to try & get into fleets although I think if you succeed you will damage forever an important social aspect of the game.
If you really want to get more content in null I suggest that you look more carefully at your own backyards & fix your own problems.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10953
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 03:38:46 -
[869] - Quote
Vennicea wrote:There are some valid arguments above for either side of this discussion.
One factor that I think many of the anti-incursion side of the fence appear to ignore are the non-ISK benefits of people running incursions.
From what I have seen most people move into incursion fleets as a progression from running Level 4 missions. These people learn how to fit their ships properly & as they build up their ISK they shiny up their ships. Many will train up &/or purchase a second or third character to run as logi/support.
Sure some people will stay around & grind away at incursions, but there are other people who grind away at mining, trading etc etc. After all EvE seems to cater for the obsessive compulsive weakness many have. From my experience most people who try out incursions fade away after several months.
While incursion income runs at about 100-150M per hour, what many people do not factor in is travelling time, waiting time & time when there is no fleet at all. I don't have actual figures but I reckon half my time in incursions is spent doing "nothing", so my effective income drops by up to half. Add to that that most serious or even semi-serious incursion runners have 2 or 3 characters tied up then some simple math makes your actual per hour ISK income dreadful.
So why do people continue to run incursions? The answer to that is simple - it's called "community".
Various groups of people have gravitated into many little (& some not so little) communities. These end up as groups of like-minded individuals who (generally) have a degree of camaraderie & friendship that you cannot find in EvE easily. All of this outside the rigid corporation/alliance structure which is what turns many people off life in null.
In my case & probably most others, I can make ISK more easily doing other things. I choose to run incursions because I like the people I fly with & I have a sense of duty to repay them for the knowledge & support that they have given me previously. There are many incursion runners who think the same.
So if you anti-incursion people get your way & CCP nerfs incursion income it will not affect me. I will continue to try & get into fleets although I think if you succeed you will damage forever an important social aspect of the game.
If you really want to get more content in null I suggest that you look more carefully at your own backyards & fix your own problems.
Another case in point. How does anything any play does make a Mach (that could be making 150 mil an hour in an incursion) make more than 75 mil an hour in Sov null?
And theb 'community' exuse was the excuse some incursion runners (not me) made when CCP announce the 1st incursion nerf. "But it's about community" they exclaimed. CCP nerfed incursion rewards and the community for which isk was supposedly secondary evaporated over night until CCP walked back some of the income nerf a few months later.
In other words, "Community" is a lie, and we have historical proof of that fact. It's about the isk.
And another thing, if you get to count traveling to a new incursion focus in the isk/hr calculation, people outside of high sec count everything they do as well. Joining CTA fleets. Doing Logistics. Making or moving ammo/drones/hulls, Scanning entrances and exits (for the wormhole guys), sitting cloaked in a safe when someone is trying to kill you etc etc.
None of that changes the fact that there is a huge amount of denialist thinking when it comes to how unbalanced incursions are due to the combination of too much pay out and WAY too much safety, and most of that is born of the greed and selfishness of a couple thousand (at best) players who generate 10 TRILLION isk per month.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1449
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 03:44:21 -
[870] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kashadin wrote:
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord.
Nah, its from running FW missions. This. I don't know what possess people who don't know what they are talking about to post in threads lol. LP doesn't come from players, it comes from the game.
It's kind of sad when someone argues ignorance about a point that was already clarified as being exactly what you were referring to. But if that weren't the case I suppose this thread would have died ages ago. |
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Kashadin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 03:47:55 -
[871] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kashadin wrote:
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord.
Nah, its from running FW missions. This. I don't know what possess people who don't know what they are talking about to post in threads lol. LP doesn't come from players, it comes from the game.
Must be talking about yourself, I explained myself like 2 post after the one you quoted.
And 2 points.
1) In FW, LP can come from players. As long as they are from the opposing militia you get LP for blowing up the persons ships, it's not very good from what I understand because A) people normally fly cheaper ships in FW and B) you don't get consistent fights in FW to make good enough LP to out-do the other sources.
2) LP in and of itself has no value and is not trade able, it is the items that you purchase with it that have value. And that being said the ISK that someone gets from LP is made from selling the items to other players, not a magical source of ISK in the way of bounty/site payout.
With point 2 being made, a large profit is made in incursions from the LP that can be moved to other sources, tho at a decreased rate. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10953
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 03:50:43 -
[872] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:You seem to really ignore the man hour value.
10 man groups is 150 man hours 40 man groups is 600 man hours.
This is what 113,220(based upon 7,548 pilots and your calculations) man hours looks like.
I'm serious when I say that it's funny as hell to see these people grasping for so many straws that they end up confirming the problem they are trying to deny. The poster you replied to is the prime example, because he claimed that "only a few hundred people do incursions anyway" then went on to link a graph showing incursion rewards are the third largest isk faucet in the game (meaning that if it's only a few hundred people, something is WAY wrong with the activity they are doing because it takes 10s of thousands of players to generate the isk the constitutes the largest isk faucet that's barely 3 times the size of the incursion runners contribution lol).
So now the goal post is moved to "man hours"... when the man hours needed to set up PVE outside of high sec incursions is WAY higher than what incursion communities have to do (hell, I have yet to do an incursion more than 12 jumps from a Trade hub), further demonstrating the imbalance.
I hope I never come across something I need to defend so much that it makes me as irrational as some of these deniers.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10953
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 03:56:39 -
[873] - Quote
Kashadin wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kashadin wrote:
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord.
Nah, its from running FW missions. This. I don't know what possess people who don't know what they are talking about to post in threads lol. LP doesn't come from players, it comes from the game. Must be talking about yourself, I explained myself like 2 post after the one you quoted. And 2 points. 1) In FW, LP can come from players. As long as they are from the opposing militia you get LP for blowing up the persons ships, it's not very good from what I understand because A) people normally fly cheaper ships in FW and B) you don't get consistent fights in FW to make good enough LP to out-do the other sources. 2) LP in and of itself has no value and is not trade able, it is the items that you purchase with it that have value. And that being said the ISK that someone gets from LP is made from selling the items to other players, not a magical source of ISK in the way of bounty/site payout. With point 2 being made, a large profit is made in incursions from the LP that can be moved to other sources, tho at a decreased rate.
LP never comes from a player, it comes from NPCs. Getting lp for blowing up a player doesn't mean LP came from a player. EVE doesn't take isk out of a dudes wallet to pay you.
All of which is moot. Faction Warfare wealth generation is wholly and completely unbalanced. That' s why so many of us have FW farming alts (mine is in a corp with FARMING in the name lol). Under no circumstances should someone be able to generate more PVE wealth with a disposable stealth bomber or caracal than they can with a freaking Carrier in low or null sec. The very idea is obscene.
Of course I'm going to keep doing it till CCP gets off their collective Duffs and does a top down review of PVE wealth generation (I will also continue to fly Ishtars till they fix them too), but it's crazy to me how people can be so selfish as to not even be able to admit when something is wrong with something that is so obviously broken by any reasoned and reasonable measure. 200 mil per hour (selling when you hit at least tier 4) stealth bombers are not reasonable.
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
82
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 04:00:49 -
[874] - Quote
This still going?
It is not about high, low or null. It is all about lack of risk.
Just add risk. Some drifters, Momma with a Lux, or allow other ppl to do it. Some random (or targetted) 'splosions.
Keep the community. Hell, keep the riches.
Just blow some **** up already. |
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 04:12:24 -
[875] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Kashadin wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kashadin wrote:
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord.
Nah, its from running FW missions. This. I don't know what possess people who don't know what they are talking about to post in threads lol. LP doesn't come from players, it comes from the game. Must be talking about yourself, I explained myself like 2 post after the one you quoted. And 2 points. 1) In FW, LP can come from players. As long as they are from the opposing militia you get LP for blowing up the persons ships, it's not very good from what I understand because A) people normally fly cheaper ships in FW and B) you don't get consistent fights in FW to make good enough LP to out-do the other sources. 2) LP in and of itself has no value and is not trade able, it is the items that you purchase with it that have value. And that being said the ISK that someone gets from LP is made from selling the items to other players, not a magical source of ISK in the way of bounty/site payout. With point 2 being made, a large profit is made in incursions from the LP that can be moved to other sources, tho at a decreased rate. LP never comes from a player, it comes from NPCs. Getting lp for blowing up a player doesn't mean LP came from a player. EVE doesn't take isk out of a dudes wallet to pay you. All of which is moot. Faction Warfare wealth generation is wholly and completely unbalanced. That' s why so many of us have FW farming alts (mine is in a corp with FARMING in the name lol). Under no circumstances should someone be able to generate more PVE wealth with a disposable stealth bomber or caracal than they can with a freaking Carrier in low or null sec. The very idea is obscene. Of course I'm going to keep doing it till CCP gets off their collective Duffs and does a top down review of PVE wealth generation (I will also continue to fly Ishtars till they fix them too), but it's crazy to me how people can be so selfish as to not even be able to admit when something is wrong with something that is so obviously broken by any reasoned and reasonable measure. 200 mil per hour (selling when you hit at least tier 4) stealth bombers are not reasonable.
1) If you read the entire point, it is obvious that I am going the bare minimum in saying that LP comes from players, in that you get LP for blowing up opposing FW fighters.
2) I don't do the FW or incursion ISK grind because I find them boring and have better stuff I could do with my time, making ISK has never and likely will never be a very important thing to me.
3) I agree that the amount of ISK that someone can make for almost nothing is ridiculous in FW, but that has more to do with the farming nature of the community that sprang up around FW and not really a lot to do with FW itself. I don't think that FW and the associated LP stores were ever intended to be used the way that they are currently. Not that that has anything to do with this thread. |
Vennicea
VVV Enterprises
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 04:26:05 -
[876] - Quote
It is actually quite amusing to see the heat that this topic is creating.
Unfortunately it appears that neither side will budge & this topic will devolve into an endless rant of arguments & counter-arguments which actually solves zip.
Time for me to do something productive. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
37208
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 04:30:15 -
[877] - Quote
Vennicea wrote:... this topic will devolve into an endless rant of arguments & counter-arguments which actually solves zip... That happened long ago already.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
361
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 04:36:20 -
[878] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:baltec1 wrote:Kashadin wrote:
At least the bomber alt makes you ISK from other players (for the most part) and not just magically makes it appear from concord.
Nah, its from running FW missions. This. I don't know what possess people who don't know what they are talking about to post in threads lol. LP doesn't come from players, it comes from the game.
The LP is then converted into a commodity that has said LP value build into them, the ISK is then traded from players looking to purchase this commodity.
LP store is actually an ISK sink, as some items require you to pay an unrecoverable sum to an NPC Corporation to obtain them, and none items to my knowledge pay you.
In short, Loyalty Points is a resource - just like mining, or salvaging is, though with an added healthy benefit of taking the ISK out of the system and keeping inflation in check.
Here is the graph again - http://i.imgur.com/wybDyAB.png
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK.
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Neesa Corrinne
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 04:37:41 -
[879] - Quote
The really amusing part is that the OP claims to have been running incursions for several hours a day for several years.
So in other words, he made his billions and wants to slam the door shut on others now that he's moving on. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10955
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 04:45:36 -
[880] - Quote
Kashadin wrote:
3) I agree that the amount of ISK that someone can make for almost nothing is ridiculous in FW, but that has more to do with the farming nature of the community that sprang up around FW and not really a lot to do with FW itself. I don't think that FW and the associated LP stores were ever intended to be used the way that they are currently. Not that that has anything to do with this thread.
I was in FW at it's inception in 2008, and it wasn't like that, in fact no one did FW missions then. CCP WAY over-buffed the FW rewards, in part because many of us short sightedly (myself included) complained that there were no rewards for being in FW. The problem isn't the farming community, it's that CCP stuffed rewards into something that was supposed to mainly be about pvp.
Now there are lots of people who don't give a damn about FW in FW farming, and that's a shame. FW was glorious in the beginning, all we were really asking for was a way to sustain ourselves while being in FW and CCP responded with an unbalanced gold mine that screws everything up. |
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
83
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 04:55:47 -
[881] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Kashadin wrote:
3) I agree that the amount of ISK that someone can make for almost nothing is ridiculous in FW, but that has more to do with the farming nature of the community that sprang up around FW and not really a lot to do with FW itself. I don't think that FW and the associated LP stores were ever intended to be used the way that they are currently. Not that that has anything to do with this thread.
I was in FW at it's inception in 2008, and it wasn't like that, in fact no one did FW missions then. CCP WAY over-buffed the FW rewards, in part because many of us short sightedly (myself included) complained that there were no rewards for being in FW. The problem isn't the farming community, it's that CCP stuffed rewards into something that was supposed to mainly be about pvp. Now there are lots of people who don't give a damn about FW in FW farming, and that's a shame. FW was glorious in the beginning, all we were really asking for was a way to sustain ourselves while being in FW and CCP responded with an unbalanced gold mine that screws everything up.
At least ships explode in lowsec and there are people hunting. That you have to use a cloaky bomber to avoid that is indicative of the risks. |
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 05:20:20 -
[882] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Kashadin wrote:
3) I agree that the amount of ISK that someone can make for almost nothing is ridiculous in FW, but that has more to do with the farming nature of the community that sprang up around FW and not really a lot to do with FW itself. I don't think that FW and the associated LP stores were ever intended to be used the way that they are currently. Not that that has anything to do with this thread.
I was in FW at it's inception in 2008, and it wasn't like that, in fact no one did FW missions then. CCP WAY over-buffed the FW rewards, in part because many of us short sightedly (myself included) complained that there were no rewards for being in FW. The problem isn't the farming community, it's that CCP stuffed rewards into something that was supposed to mainly be about pvp. Now there are lots of people who don't give a damn about FW in FW farming, and that's a shame. FW was glorious in the beginning, all we were really asking for was a way to sustain ourselves while being in FW and CCP responded with an unbalanced gold mine that screws everything up. At least ships explode in lowsec and there are people hunting. That you have to use a cloaky bomber to avoid that is indicative of the risks.
The bomber has nothing to do with needing to avoid people (tho it helps) and more to do with the BS size weapons on a frig size hull that can sig tank a entire room of a LVL 4 mission while blitzing it. And the fact that you can do this with several missions in a single run in a decent amount of time for a large pay out. At least on the minmitar side, the caldari and galente FW have some problems with this because of the EWAR they go against, and the last time I looked at FW the amarr pay outs weren't worth the effort tho that could have changed. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
83
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 05:57:41 -
[883] - Quote
Kashadin wrote: The bomber has nothing to do with needing to avoid people (tho it helps) and more to do with the BS size weapons on a frig size hull that can sig tank a entire room of a LVL 4 mission while blitzing it. And the fact that you can do this with several missions in a single run in a decent amount of time for a large pay out. At least on the minmitar side, the caldari and galente FW have some problems with this because of the EWAR they go against, and the last time I looked at FW the amarr pay outs weren't worth the effort tho that could have changed.
Could you tank these missions in a blinged out Golem or a navy BS? If so, wouldn't the payouts be faster? |
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 06:07:25 -
[884] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Kashadin wrote: The bomber has nothing to do with needing to avoid people (tho it helps) and more to do with the BS size weapons on a frig size hull that can sig tank a entire room of a LVL 4 mission while blitzing it. And the fact that you can do this with several missions in a single run in a decent amount of time for a large pay out. At least on the minmitar side, the caldari and galente FW have some problems with this because of the EWAR they go against, and the last time I looked at FW the amarr pay outs weren't worth the effort tho that could have changed.
Could you tank these missions in a blinged out Golem or a navy BS? If so, wouldn't the payouts be faster?
Not really since you have to go 15+jumps to get to the area to do the missions, they are all in LS FW space that is normally controlled by the opposing faction. The up side is that you can go to as many of the LVL4 mission givers for your faction as you feel like before going out to run the missions, combine that with the fact that for many of the missions you only have to destroy a handful of BS or industrial ships it makes the Stealth Bomber the most efficient way to do it. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15877
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 10:20:14 -
[885] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Could you tank these missions in a blinged out Golem or a navy BS? If so, wouldn't the payouts be faster?
You would need a very specialized fit to match the warp speed and you would encounter a great many fights when moving gates. Plus why spend 2-3 billion on a ship when a 50 mil expendable frigate can do the job.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10958
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 12:19:41 -
[886] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Kashadin wrote:
3) I agree that the amount of ISK that someone can make for almost nothing is ridiculous in FW, but that has more to do with the farming nature of the community that sprang up around FW and not really a lot to do with FW itself. I don't think that FW and the associated LP stores were ever intended to be used the way that they are currently. Not that that has anything to do with this thread.
I was in FW at it's inception in 2008, and it wasn't like that, in fact no one did FW missions then. CCP WAY over-buffed the FW rewards, in part because many of us short sightedly (myself included) complained that there were no rewards for being in FW. The problem isn't the farming community, it's that CCP stuffed rewards into something that was supposed to mainly be about pvp. Now there are lots of people who don't give a damn about FW in FW farming, and that's a shame. FW was glorious in the beginning, all we were really asking for was a way to sustain ourselves while being in FW and CCP responded with an unbalanced gold mine that screws everything up. At least ships explode in lowsec and there are people hunting. That you have to use a cloaky bomber to avoid that is indicative of the risks.
I wouldn't call it risk honestly. Bombers are best but you can do the missions in any number of ships, including Caracals. All you have to do is buy a stack of caracals and enough fittings to fit them out and just spend them like candy. hell, when I jump into an Amarr militia gate camp I don't even try to make it back to the gate, I just let them kill the ship, Pod me back to Hek (I chuckle when i think "these guys are sending me to HEK lol) and simply attack my travel route backwards.
It's insane, you should be able to make 100-250ish mil per hour with a Caracal or Stealth bomber you don't give 2 filps about if it dies. In defense of incursions , at least you need a BS for that unbalanced monstrosity, but FW missions are the number 1 messed up PVE thing in EVE. CCP could fix FW missions by making them at least not be blitzable (if you have to clear the field of NPCs instead of killing a couple BSs or haulers or a structure, the massive amount of LP rewarded would make more sense).
I'ma keep farming till CCP does something, but it's really dumb how they have it now. There are WHOLE ALLIANCES in FW that play both sides of a conflict and actively manipulate which side is allowed to "win" for isk farming purposes, it's a perversion.
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
83
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 13:31:34 -
[887] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: I wouldn't call it risk honestly. Bombers are best but you can do the missions in any number of ships, including Caracals. All you have to do is buy a stack of caracals and enough fittings to fit them out and just spend them like candy. hell, when I jump into an Amarr militia gate camp I don't even try to make it back to the gate, I just let them kill the ship, Pod me back to Hek (I chuckle when i think "these guys are sending me to HEK lol) and simply attack my travel route backwards.
It's insane, we should not be able to make 100-250ish mil per hour with a Caracal or Stealth bomber we don't give 2 filps about if it dies. In defense of incursions , at least you need a BS for that unbalanced monstrosity, but FW missions are the number 1 messed up PVE thing in EVE. CCP could fix FW missions by making them at least not be blitzable (if you have to clear the field of NPCs instead of killing a couple BSs or haulers or a structure, the massive amount of LP rewarded would make more sense).
I'ma keep farming till CCP does something, but it's really dumb how they have it now. There are WHOLE ALLIANCES in FW that play both sides of a conflict and actively manipulate which side is allowed to "win" for isk farming purposes, it's a perversion.
Gotcha, see how that works now. The fix isn't so radical for CCP either. |
Lena Lazair
Khanid Irregulars Khanid's Legion
459
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 16:46:02 -
[888] - Quote
High-sec incursions should be moved exclusively to high-sec islands.
It introduces all kinds of risk to the overall process to offset the rewards, while still maintaining the integral separation of risk DURING the PvE activity, which is what the average high-sec player actually cares about. |
Miami Jones
Virtual Industry Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 19:58:30 -
[889] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote: Heres what I do as an incursioner in eve:
- log in - waitlist and grab a beer - join fleet make 250mil an hour with lp included (each account) - run for 2 or 3 hours and log out
Wheres the harsh and cold environment in this?
Ummm no you don't. Given 2000 isk per lp (which is double the going rate atm), that's 31.5mil for concord bounties plus 14mil in lp =45.5mil per site.
You state you make 250mil an hour on each account. That's 5.5 sites an hour or 10.9 minutes a site including warp time, x ups etc. The only way to do this is to farm TCRCs over and over and have an endless waiting list of logi to replace those leaving. Obviously you don't know wtf you're talking about because the sites cycle between TCRC NRF and TPPH for HQs. It is impossible to always get TCRCs every site. Also, doesn't your fleet ever do a TPPH to bio?
The OP wayyy overstates income from incursions. Eve is not "broken" because of incursion income. Get your math right before posting. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1781
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 20:09:03 -
[890] - Quote
Lena Lazair wrote:High-sec incursions should be moved exclusively to high-sec islands.
It introduces all kinds of risk to the overall process to offset the rewards, while still maintaining the integral separation of risk DURING the PvE activity, which is what the average high-sec player actually cares about.
There aren't that many high-sec highland IIRC so people could potentially leave a boat in most possible places. |
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
286
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 20:27:52 -
[891] - Quote
Miami Jones wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote: Heres what I do as an incursioner in eve:
- log in - waitlist and grab a beer - join fleet make 250mil an hour with lp included (each account) - run for 2 or 3 hours and log out
Wheres the harsh and cold environment in this?
Ummm no you don't. Given 2000 isk per lp (which is double the going rate atm), that's 31.5mil for concord bounties plus 14mil in lp =45.5mil per site. You state you make 250mil an hour on each account. That's 5.5 sites an hour or 10.9 minutes a site including warp time, x ups etc. The only way to do this is to farm TCRCs over and over and have an endless waiting list of logi to replace those leaving. Obviously you don't know wtf you're talking about because the sites cycle between TCRC NRF and TPPH for HQs. It is impossible to always get TCRCs every site. Also, doesn't your fleet ever do a TPPH to bio? The OP wayyy overstates income from incursions. Eve is not "broken" because of incursion income. Get your math right before posting.
Even if those numbers are off by as much as 50% (which I doubt), Hi Sec incursions are still broken, as risky nullsec pve is still about equal to riskless hisec pve in terms of net take per hour.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15879
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 20:41:47 -
[892] - Quote
Miami Jones wrote:
The OP wayyy overstates income from incursions. Eve is not "broken" because of incursion income. Get your math right before posting.
Oh the irony.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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SilentAsTheGrave
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
254
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 20:59:32 -
[893] - Quote
If high sec Incursions bother you so much; why don't you start suicide tanking them? You do it to freighters that are 100% empty "for the lulz" so why don't you go after them? Afraid of a target that can shoot back?
Buddy Program: If you sign up with my buddy invite link and subscribe with a valid payment method - I will give you 95% of the going rate for PLEX!
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
286
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 23:00:21 -
[894] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:If high sec Incursions bother you so much; why don't you start suicide tanking them? You do it to freighters that are 100% empty "for the lulz" so why don't you go after them? Afraid of a target that can shoot back?
It has been covered already....seems you got lost in thread somewhere.
A)Ganking freighters on gates or stationary miners in belts, both of which are not behind a gate, is much much easier than having get around the gate; something about the optimal range of catalysts/talos/etc being very short.
B)Sansha rats actively attack newcomers on grid. Gank ships would not really do well under fire from both the runners and the rats. There's a reason you tell the fleet if you are arriving on grid.
C)There's a lot of players and entities who are full time gankers and have significant financial and human resources. You would think if it were practical or viable under the rules we have, that they would be very interested in the killmails they could generate there, and act accordingly. I mean occasionally someone goes AFK on a gate to a site or to autopilots through Uedama in an incursion boat, but other than that, the sheer scarcity of this happening should speak volumes on the practicality of it.
D)How many ganking fleets have you FC'ed? Produce some convincing lossmails of incursion runners in sites and I would be rather impressed.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Lena Lazair
Khanid Irregulars Khanid's Legion
459
|
Posted - 2015.05.12 23:44:23 -
[895] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Lena Lazair wrote:High-sec incursions should be moved exclusively to high-sec islands.
It introduces all kinds of risk to the overall process to offset the rewards, while still maintaining the integral separation of risk DURING the PvE activity, which is what the average high-sec player actually cares about. There aren't that many high-sec highland IIRC so people could potentially leave a boat in most possible places.
I'd have to go back and look at the static data again but from last time I floated this, there are 106 high-sec island systems, 81 of which have at least one station. These are spread out across 39 unique constellations. Some islands span multiple constellations and I didn't go through to sort that out, but assuming 2 constellations per island that's still 15+ high-sec islands and 39 constellations potentially under incursion.
Sure, some people will park ships in all of them. But fundamentally it's going to increase logistics traffic across those pipes for any number of reasons. Just because, for instance, JF traffic through null when done correctly is perfectly safe does not mean that freight in null is safe or that JF's don't get popped all the time. Increasing the points of potential conflict and interaction increases the possibility of mistakes and puts more risk on the process as a whole. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15881
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 07:40:29 -
[896] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:If high sec Incursions bother you so much; why don't you start suicide tanking them? You do it to freighters that are 100% empty "for the lulz" so why don't you go after them? Afraid of a target that can shoot back?
you cant suicide gank actual BS fleets with logi support
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24243
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 07:57:17 -
[897] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:If high sec Incursions bother you so much; why don't you start suicide tanking them? You do it to freighters that are 100% empty "for the lulz" so why don't you go after them? Afraid of a target that can shoot back? And this is what happens when someone doesn't read through the thread ... ... and believes he magically had an original thought no one came up with.
And it's a hater too.
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
571
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:01:00 -
[898] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:SilentAsTheGrave wrote:If high sec Incursions bother you so much; why don't you start suicide tanking them? You do it to freighters that are 100% empty "for the lulz" so why don't you go after them? Afraid of a target that can shoot back? And this is what happens when someone doesn't read through the thread ... ... and believes he magically had an original thought no one came up with. And it's a hater too.
you get to the stage where you are just repeating the same info to new people who dont care to look through all the previous pages
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24243
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 08:04:58 -
[899] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Solecist Project wrote:SilentAsTheGrave wrote:If high sec Incursions bother you so much; why don't you start suicide tanking them? You do it to freighters that are 100% empty "for the lulz" so why don't you go after them? Afraid of a target that can shoot back? And this is what happens when someone doesn't read through the thread ... ... and believes he magically had an original thought no one came up with. And it's a hater too. you get to the stage where you are just repeating the same info to new people who dont care to look through all the previous pages Yeah, which is nonsensical to do. Yet people do it, instead of pointing at the thread. And THAT makes it worse, because they legitimate these stupid posts that way.
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1782
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 15:55:17 -
[900] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:SilentAsTheGrave wrote:If high sec Incursions bother you so much; why don't you start suicide tanking them? You do it to freighters that are 100% empty "for the lulz" so why don't you go after them? Afraid of a target that can shoot back? you cant suicide gank actual BS fleets with logi support
You can but at too high a cost. You won't cover your cost unless you really get lucky but there is nothing preventing you from parking tornadoes on the gate to a TCRC and just shooting whoever is the first poor chap to land after completing the previous site. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15892
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 16:14:24 -
[901] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:baltec1 wrote:SilentAsTheGrave wrote:If high sec Incursions bother you so much; why don't you start suicide tanking them? You do it to freighters that are 100% empty "for the lulz" so why don't you go after them? Afraid of a target that can shoot back? you cant suicide gank actual BS fleets with logi support You can but at too high a cost. You won't cover your cost unless you really get lucky but there is nothing preventing you from parking tornadoes on the gate to a TCRC and just shooting whoever is the first poor chap to land after completing the previous site.
You will be bankrupt after ganking your second target. Suicide ganking simply is not an answer here not only because you cant pull it off but most importantly you because you don't fix game imbalances by telling other players to just gank others.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10966
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 16:40:25 -
[902] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: you don't fix game imbalances by telling other players to just gank others.
Exactly. The constant talk about ganking is simply a diversion awayu from admitting that the problem exists.
Right now I'm living proof of the imbalance. Up until recently I lived in Delve. Me and my buddy 'lived' off of bllod raider anomalies. We both have done incursions and other pve before, but anoms are liquid isk and it's less boring doing pve with a friend. We pitched in together and bought a Vargur for the 10/10 esclations, but for ratting we used out machs.
And I would dual box an Ishtar on an alt semi-afking forsaken hubs while he and I did havens in machs.
Even with all that, even with escalations (that have RNG style rewards, sometimes we got nothing but the OPE box), it was hard to maintain the 'lifestyle'. Because of plex prices i went form plexing 4 accounts to plexxing 3 and paying the sub in cash with the 4th account (even though I'm capable of doing lvl 5 bltizing and have a FW alt, I can't be arsed to log in those characters sometimes, those activities just aren't fun). Roaming ceptors and cloaky campers were a constant concern, nothing we didn't handle though.
Then the recent upheaval in Delve happened, and We've had to leave. We both decided to take our alts to high sec to run incursions. I had recently trained what was a hauling alt to fly my incursion mach (so I could use my other mach capable pilots like jenn to do other things) and my buddy's alt could fly a raven so he simply trained over into a Nightmare. We run incursions with TVP and WTM.
After a week of incursion running I bought a Golem for Jenn and while I am incursion running I simply stick Jenn into a mission like Gone Berserk, Smash the Supplier, Buzz kill or some other mission with lots of npcs in one place, bastion up and start shooting FoF missiles. The Golem has a cap stable tank and tech1 light drones so i don't have to pay ANY attention to it except to restart the FoF missiles every 4-5 minutes.
The "semi-afk Golem" doesn't make as much isk as the afk Ishtar did, but since incursion running with the mach pays TWICE what using that same mach in null sec did, I come away way better off. I'm back to plexxing all 4 accounts without strain (playing fewer hours per day in fact), with way more left over to do other stuff with., all from he safety and convenience of high sec..
99% of the people claiming the above described situation isn't broken have 0% of the experience people like me have with playing the game in mutiple areas. |
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
8
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 21:52:07 -
[903] - Quote
Vennicea wrote:It is actually quite amusing to see the heat that this topic is creating.
Unfortunately it appears that neither side will budge & this topic will devolve into an endless rant of arguments & counter-arguments which actually solves zip.
Time for me to do something productive.
Well, forums were never a place for real debate. I mean, once people realize they can't convince you of their point of view they start to throw insults around and claiming their point of view as the absolute truth and anyone who disagrees is either stupid or lying
It's so disgusting I retired the grand majority of my interest in this thread. The forums make me want to quit the game, so I take a break when I feel it's time. |
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
83
|
Posted - 2015.05.13 23:57:32 -
[904] - Quote
Joe Atei wrote:Vennicea wrote:It is actually quite amusing to see the heat that this topic is creating.
Unfortunately it appears that neither side will budge & this topic will devolve into an endless rant of arguments & counter-arguments which actually solves zip.
Time for me to do something productive. Well, forums were never a place for real debate. I mean, once people realize they can't convince you of their point of view they start to throw insults around and claiming their point of view as the absolute truth and anyone who disagrees is either stupid or lyingIt's so disgusting I retired the grand majority of my interest in this thread. The forums make me want to quit the game, so I take a break when I feel it's time.
Disagree. What is missing is the ability to say "I stand corrected" or "Hey I learned something, thanks".
Stalemate is "we agree to disagree"
A forum is not always a competition, unless you make it one. And even then you "gf" when you lose a fight
btw, insulting or attacking your opponent directly is a "loss" in any proper debate. Always attack the argument ftw. I can agree with a sound argument regardless of who is posting it. |
Johny Tyler
Omega Tactical Group Reckoning Star Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 08:40:10 -
[905] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Joe Atei wrote:Vennicea wrote:It is actually quite amusing to see the heat that this topic is creating.
Unfortunately it appears that neither side will budge & this topic will devolve into an endless rant of arguments & counter-arguments which actually solves zip.
Time for me to do something productive. Well, forums were never a place for real debate. I mean, once people realize they can't convince you of their point of view they start to throw insults around and claiming their point of view as the absolute truth and anyone who disagrees is either stupid or lyingIt's so disgusting I retired the grand majority of my interest in this thread. The forums make me want to quit the game, so I take a break when I feel it's time. Disagree. What is missing is the ability to say "I stand corrected" or "Hey I learned something, thanks". Stalemate is "we agree to disagree" A forum is not always a competition, unless you make it one. And even then you "gf" when you lose a fight btw, insulting or attacking your opponent directly is a "loss" in any proper debate. Always attack the argument ftw. I can agree with a sound argument regardless of who is posting it.
Just train rational thinking to 5 so you will always agree with me.
Then train forum etiquette to 5 and spam emoticons to keep the everyone happy. |
leavemymomalone idiot
State War Academy Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 11:17:10 -
[906] - Quote
end incursions?
dont be stoopid, asking mummy and daddy to step in because you think its risk free isk does not make it true, its a sand box not a theme park. you dont like something do as we do. Fix it yourself.
i was born from the desire to stop arseholes killing the mom too early, our fleet of pilots never show up on killmails, we fly in and jam the logi pilots and let the sansha do the killing,
ending incursions would end the point of my existence and all the other pilots in band of blackbirds.
you think its risk free isk, i am here to tell you i know its not risk free.
The payments of isk and lp are not too large if anything i would say buff the payments. your going to need the isk.
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
583
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 11:20:15 -
[907] - Quote
leavemymomalone idiot wrote:end incursions?
dont be stoopid, asking mummy and daddy to step in because you think its risk free isk does not make it true, its a sand box not a theme park. you dont like something do as we do. Fix it yourself.
i was born from the desire to stop arseholes killing the mom too early, our fleet of pilots never show up on killmails, we fly in and jam the logi pilots and let the sansha do the killing,
ending incursions would end the point of my existence and all the other pilots in band of blackbirds.
you think its risk free isk, i am here to tell you i know its not risk free.
The payments of isk and lp are not too large if anything i would say buff the payments. your going to need the isk.
buff the payments? are you actually being serious
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24458
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 11:20:30 -
[908] - Quote
leavemymomalone idiot wrote:end incursions?
dont be stoopid, asking mummy and daddy to step in because you think its risk free isk does not make it true, its a sand box not a theme park. you dont like something do as we do. Fix it yourself.
i was born from the desire to stop arseholes killing the mom too early, our fleet of pilots never show up on killmails, we fly in and jam the logi pilots and let the sansha do the killing,
ending incursions would end the point of my existence and all the other pilots in band of blackbirds.
you think its risk free isk, i am here to tell you i know its not risk free.
The payments of isk and lp are not too large if anything i would say buff the payments. your going to need the isk.
Stupid name. Hiding behind an npc alt. Can't spell properly.
Yeah, totally worth taking seriously and absolutely honest.
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
Baaldor > ... Sol's Haiku manner of response ...
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
583
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 11:27:50 -
[909] - Quote
I would love to see some evidence of your endeavours, jamming logi is still aggression so where are your kill/death mails please
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10971
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 13:01:17 -
[910] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:I would love to see some evidence of your endeavours, jamming logi is still aggression so where are your kill/death mails please
That sound you are hearing coming from your speakers or headphones right now are Terran Insects called "crickets". That are particularly active when they detect that you are waiting for another poster to confirm something we already know is bullshit. |
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1790
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 13:06:49 -
[911] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:I would love to see some evidence of your endeavours, jamming logi is still aggression so where are your kill/death mails please
Technically he/she won't get a KM if they only jam logi and if no-one shoot them for being criminal, then concord will be the only entity on the KM so it might not be posted.
This is of course taking for granted they don't even ***** on the target being potentially melted down by Sansha and somehow don't get rat aggro from e-war usage.
It kind of require every pieces to fall at the right places and people deliberately not whoring on the upcoming kill... I guess they could argue it takes a few seconds to spot which ship is getting shot to **** by deltoles, yulais and otunis... |
Aivo Dresden
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
464
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 13:37:01 -
[912] - Quote
Incursion income with a top notch blinged up fleet is like 150m/hr. That's assuming you get a nice rate on your LP as well. The only concern I have with it, isn't the income, it's the safety and ease. Incursions are run while you watch TV or do something else. The income vs effort / risk ratio is a little off. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
382
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 14:34:32 -
[913] - Quote
leavemymomalone idiot wrote:
i was born from the desire to stop arseholes killing the mom too early, our fleet of pilots never show up on killmails, we fly in and jam the logi pilots and let the sansha do the killing,
HAHAHA. Excellent.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24490
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 14:35:39 -
[914] - Quote
GankYou wrote:leavemymomalone idiot wrote:
i was born from the desire to stop arseholes killing the mom too early, our fleet of pilots never show up on killmails, we fly in and jam the logi pilots and let the sansha do the killing,
HAHAHA. Excellent. It's funny how she says it's a sandbox ... ... and at the same time insults the players who play sandboxxy.
And to top that she doesn't realise that greed isn't a right. Or doesn't realise greed.
Hypocrites.
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Abolish Rookiecorps.
Baaldor > ... Sol's Haiku manner of response ...
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
382
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 14:36:14 -
[915] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:I would love to see some evidence of your endeavours, jamming logi is still aggression so where are your kill/death mails please
Yespls.
PLS
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1790
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 14:44:56 -
[916] - Quote
Aivo Dresden wrote:Incursion income with a top notch blinged up fleet is like 150m/hr. That's assuming you get a nice rate on your LP as well. The only concern I have with it, isn't the income, it's the safety and ease. Incursions are run while you watch TV or do something else. The income vs effort / risk ratio is a little off.
The issue is the PvE in EVE don't really offer all that much possibilities for change over this. You can make the rats hit harder to somehow overcome the logis but then fleets will bring more logis.
Enemy spawning in waves makes the whole process really procedural. At 3 point in the whole site you really ahve to pay a bit more attention because the aggro can go anywhere. The only thing that really has to be killed asap and isn't only spawning at the same time as waves are 1 ship that use ECM in TCRC. The drone bunny usually take care of it all by himself.
There is next to no situational awareness required because your position is either where you are supposed to be to do your job or burning toward that point. You never have to move because something happened.
The risk could come from other player too but the effect of this is probably harder to predict. The bling fit would most likely gets rarer which is not that bad of a result but I personally can't say if the content would still be run like it is now. It would probably depend on what freedom of intervention the players have different from the current concord response. |
Kaye Kaye
Mining and Trade
6
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 17:54:37 -
[917] - Quote
This thread should go to the Game Ideas Wasteland.
Note: Same type of junk call outs got Level 5 missions moved to Low Sec, which effectively just removed them from the game. Why not just pull any and all income activity from HS and let the game die a horrible death since you don't get your play style of PVP satisfied.
There is NOTHING you will be able to change in this game PERIOD that will get non-PVP players to PVP, it's just not going to happen in any meaningful numbers to be worth the change. They are completely different game styles.
I am surprised CCP hasn't learned by now that nerfing High Sec only means less things to do in game and less income for CCP.
Here's a thought.... Why not make more interesting things to do in game that costs a metric ton of ISK to do it - tihngs that don't involved nerfing someones play style, and add value to the game.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15892
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:00:21 -
[918] - Quote
Kaye Kaye wrote:Same type of junk call outs got Level 5 missions moved to Low Sec, which effectively just removed them from the game.
CCP fixed a bug, they were never meant to be in highsec.
Kaye Kaye wrote: There is NOTHING you will be able to change in this game PERIOD that will get non-PVP players to PVP
We don't want to, what we want is a reason for the people who do pvp to make their isk in null.
Kaye Kaye wrote: I am surprised CCP hasn't learned by now that nerfing High Sec only means less things to do in game and less income for CCP.
Highsec has had very very few nerfs.
Kaye Kaye wrote: Here's a thought.... Why not make more interesting things to do in game that costs a metric ton of ISK to do it - tihngs that don't involved nerfing someones play style, and add value to the game.
So using that argument you are a fan of giving goons back our tech moon monopoly?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
589
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 18:23:20 -
[919] - Quote
Kaye Kaye wrote:This thread should go to the Game Ideas Wasteland.
Note: Same type of junk call outs got Level 5 missions moved to Low Sec, which effectively just removed them from the game. Why not just pull any and all income activity from HS and let the game die a horrible death since you don't get your play style of PVP satisfied.
There is NOTHING you will be able to change in this game PERIOD that will get non-PVP players to PVP, it's just not going to happen in any meaningful numbers to be worth the change. They are completely different game styles.
I am surprised CCP hasn't learned by now that nerfing High Sec only means less things to do in game and less income for CCP.
Here's a thought.... Why not make more interesting things to do in game that costs a metric ton of ISK to do it - tihngs that don't involved nerfing someones play style, and add value to the game.
You know highsec isnt the only place in eve, lvl 5's dead? Dont think so they just added risk (fixed a bug) now the only people who do them are the people who want to take the risk to make the isk, as said why buff everything else when you can sort the root of the problem
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
287
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 21:02:27 -
[920] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kaye Kaye wrote: There is NOTHING you will be able to change in this game PERIOD that will get non-PVP players to PVP
We don't want to, what we want is a reason for the people who do pvp to make their isk in null.
What's funny is that an entirely honest appraisal of the situation will probably be ignored in favour of vilification of null sec residents.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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ashley Eoner
473
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 21:11:32 -
[921] - Quote
Aivo Dresden wrote:Incursion income with a top notch blinged up fleet is like 150m/hr. That's assuming you get a nice rate on your LP as well. The only concern I have with it, isn't the income, it's the safety and ease. Incursions are run while you watch TV or do something else. The income vs effort / risk ratio is a little off. In non a blinged out fleet I made a little less to far more per hour in WHs AND null with little risk. Although I guess I had to click dscan occasionally in the WH so you could call that extra effort.
It's amazing how much isk you can make in null as an individual when your alliance isn't renting out most of the good space.
:others:
It's kind of sad how people are so obsessive over someone possibly making as much or more isk per hour with less effort or risk. Just enjoy the game you play and stop being so zealous over what someone may or may not be making.
If your obsession is too strong to ignore you can always take it on yourself to HTFU and make it harder for those that are the target of your jealously. Nah that would require effort in a sandbox game. I guess you can just continue whining on the forums in the hopes that you don't have to do anything in game. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
288
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 21:32:18 -
[922] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote: It's kind of sad how people are so obsessive over someone possibly making as much or more isk per hour with less effort or risk. Just enjoy the game you play and stop being so zealous over what someone may or may not be making.
It's not about raw isk per hour or per effort. There's always going to be someone who knows how to game things better and achieve better numbers than the rest of us, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. What's wrong about the situation is that the average pilot is better off in Hi Sec than they would be in null. Wouldn't it be cool if null sec actually supported it's population?
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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ashley Eoner
474
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 21:39:40 -
[923] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:ashley Eoner wrote: It's kind of sad how people are so obsessive over someone possibly making as much or more isk per hour with less effort or risk. Just enjoy the game you play and stop being so zealous over what someone may or may not be making.
It's not about raw isk per hour or per effort. There's always going to be someone who knows how to game things better and achieve better numbers than the rest of us, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. What's wrong about the situation is that the average pilot is better off in Hi Sec than they would be in null. Wouldn't it be cool if null sec actually supported it's population? The pilots are ONLY better off in highsec because of their corp and alliance. Choose a different corp or alliance is my suggestion. When I rented in null I made more then enough isk per hour to choose to live there instead of highsec. Of course renting out the system to me meant that the rank and file of the renter corp had one less system to make isk in. Repeat this by many times and you see why the corp/alliance doing the renting has completely screwed their rank and file..
Of course the isk being made by the renter corps goes into SRP and other fun things that the people in highsec don't have. So while you're in that corp your income is reduced you're also gaining benefits galore.
Comparing null income while part of a large alliance to that of a single player in an incursion fleet is apples to oranges. The incursion pilot might make a bit more isk per hour on paper but they have NOTHING resembling the benefits that the null pilot has (fleet and solo SRP, paid for activities like finding WHs, more opportunities for gameplay experience etc).
If Null is really so awful to live in then it shouldn't be difficult to convince people to go on strike and leave null en-mass. That would get CCPs attention. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2155
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 21:47:44 -
[924] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote: It's not about raw isk per hour or per effort. There's always going to be someone who knows how to game things better and achieve better numbers than the rest of us, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. What's wrong about the situation is that the average pilot is better off in Hi Sec than they would be in null. Wouldn't it be cool if null sec actually supported it's population?
The 'average' pilot does not run Incursions in high sec. Incursions in Highsec simply do not support that many people. Even assuming 100/hour they only support 80-90 pilots at any one time. (calculated off the 2014 figures, I posted the breakdown in one of these repetitive threads by the same people crying for them to be nerfed). So if the issue is 'average pilots' then look elsewhere.
If the issue is Null vs High Incursions.... https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Incursion_sites#Vanguard Figures taken from here since I can't currently log into EVE, Ratio will be correct even if total value isn't. High Incursion Vanguard = 10 (number of pilots for max payout) *0.7 (highsec ratio)*15,000,000 (Individual payout) = 105,000,000 total income per site, 105 Million. High Incursion Vanguard = 15 (number of pilots for max payout) *1.0 (highsec ratio)*15,000,000 (Individual payout) = 225,000,000 total income per site, 225 Million. So a Null Vanguard site is worth just over DOUBLE a High Vanguard site.
Yes CCP haven't extended that past Vanguards for the additional pilots, but probably they should. Even if the sites take 50% longer (despite the extra pilots which should easily balance out T2 fits vs Deadspace fits) Null still earns more isk per site. As for 'Incursions get ended fast in Null'. Don't complain about your own choices. Now Caps can take gates you can move Caps around even with a cyno jammer effect in place. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
288
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 21:59:23 -
[925] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Yes CCP haven't extended that past Vanguards for the additional pilots, but probably they should. Even if the sites take 50% longer (despite the extra pilots which should easily balance out T2 fits vs Deadspace fits) Null still earns more isk per site. As for 'Incursions get ended fast in Null'. Don't complain about your own choices. Now Caps can take gates you can move Caps around even with a cyno jammer effect in place.
The point of the thread isn't Null vs HS incursions, though I would find it hilarious to see you take a Jump Freighter from Jita to a Sov Capital of your choice without using cynos; it isn't really a choice.
The point of the thread is the payouts available by HS incursions are sufficiently high to push all other income generation options in other areas off the table of viability/desirability.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Dantelion Shinoni
SQUIDS.
14
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Posted - 2015.05.15 01:33:58 -
[926] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote: The few fleets I was in where I made more then +110m an hour I had to wait for. Hell I had to wait for the 100m an hour fleets. Of course the fellow quoting 150m an hour doesn't include the hour or two spent on the waitlist earning nothing. God help you if you decide to make a little isk on the side while waiting thus being out of system when your name is called.
Oh gods, you ahve to wait an hour before making billions!... The horror.
ashley Eoner wrote: Comparing null income while part of a large alliance to that of a single player in an incursion fleet is apples to oranges. The incursion pilot might make a bit more isk per hour on paper (excluding wait times) but they have NOTHING resembling the benefits that the null pilot has (fleet and solo SRP, paid for activities like finding WHs, more opportunities for gameplay experience etc).
Yeah, just a bit. Such a tiny bit that Null-secers get on their alts to run them instead of profiting of the maaaany benefits they have. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15895
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 03:45:01 -
[927] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Aivo Dresden wrote:Incursion income with a top notch blinged up fleet is like 150m/hr. That's assuming you get a nice rate on your LP as well. The only concern I have with it, isn't the income, it's the safety and ease. Incursions are run while you watch TV or do something else. The income vs effort / risk ratio is a little off. In non a blinged out fleet I made a little less to far more per hour in WHs AND null with little risk. Although I guess I had to click dscan occasionally in the WH so you could call that extra effort. It's amazing how much isk you can make in null as an individual when your alliance isn't renting out most of the good space. :others: It's kind of sad how people are so obsessive over someone possibly making as much or more isk per hour with less effort or risk. Just enjoy the game you play and stop being so zealous over what someone may or may not be making. If your obsession is too strong to ignore you can always take it on yourself to HTFU and make it harder for those that are the target of your jealously. Nah that would require effort in a sandbox game. I guess you can just continue whining on the forums in the hopes that you don't have to do anything in game. baltec1 wrote: We don't want to, what we want is a reason for the people who do pvp to make their isk in null.
If only that was true. Looking at your post history it's clear you haven't met a highsec nerf you didn't like. People can clearly make good isk in null and only propagandists or clueless/fail players claim otherwise. Your own alliance has corps that have created recruitment pictures galore bragging about the good isk you can make in their space (null). Regardless lets do a little theory crafting here and assume for a moment that your version of null actually exists. A null that pvp players can't make good isk and that the only place to make good isk is in highsec. Your solution to this problem is to... *drumroll*.....nerf highsec. So how does decreasing income in only highsec increase the ticks in null when ratting or running sites? Are you hoping that all the isk made in FW/low and WH somehow vanishes too? Or are those your next line of targets? Only at that point (after you've nerfed highsec low and WHs into the ground) would you see a relative increase in purchasing power from null PVE. CCP has already shown that their data shows nullsec making a LOT of isk (hence the nerfs). So I doubt CCP would buff null income after having just tried to get the isk fountains out there somewhat under control.
CCPs data shows more liqid isk is made in null due to the fact that all the reward for anoms come from bounties. That does not mean null has the best income, said anoms are on par with level 3 income in highsec. That propaganda about how great our great ratting income is in renter space is just that, propaganda. Shock horror, goons are scamming people into paying taxes for useless space. Do you honestly think we would not be using that space ourselves if it was any good?
What I want is a total revamp of income from PVE in all areas of space in the same way that mining, industry, exploration and PI now operate.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10995
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 04:14:57 -
[928] - Quote
The sig of Malcanis the Great is relevant here:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
ashley Eoner
474
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 04:50:03 -
[929] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:CCPs data shows more liqid isk is made in null due to the fact that all the reward for anoms come from bounties. That does not mean null has the best income, said anoms are on par with level 3 income in highsec. That propaganda about how great our great ratting income is in renter space is just that, propaganda. Shock horror, goons are scamming people into paying taxes for useless space. Do you honestly think we would not be using that space ourselves if it was any good?
What I want is a total revamp of income from PVE in all areas of space in the same way that mining, industry, exploration and PI now operate. I think the fact that your alliance can throw hundreds of extremely well equiped supers and titans into a fight is more then enough evidence that nullsec makes plenty of isk. Remember how CCP swore that titans cost so much that only the biggest alliances would be able to field a few? I believe I remember similar statements about super carriers when they were introduced. Seems nullsec income far surpassed even CCP's expectations.
I was talking about recruitment banners/images not renter stuff.
I've done the renter thing and I've done the big alliance thing. I made more personal isk as a renter but the SRP, intel channels, and such from the big alliance thing certainly made up for the loss in income relative to renting. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12988
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 07:30:38 -
[930] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Remember how CCP swore that titans cost so much that only the biggest alliances would be able to field a few?
That's a statement about CCP's legendary shortsightedness, not about relativity of personal income.
And as far as personal income goes, incursions are way out of whack.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
129
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Posted - 2015.05.15 08:43:06 -
[931] - Quote
I have to admit that I haven't read the entire thread so what I am about to say may have been said before.
CCP should look at the time it takes Concord to respond or just turn off concord in incursions. That would allow gankers to gank and add risk to the equation. The problem really isn't the income but risk involved with the amount of ISK made. Also, an updated AI would really make incursions more dynamic, not like burner missions but something that challenges players. If I had one thing to change about EVE it would the predictability of the AI and from what I have seen they are working on this but in the end AI is most of the problem.
Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why.
Hunter S. Thompson
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15897
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 10:10:36 -
[932] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:baltec1 wrote:CCPs data shows more liqid isk is made in null due to the fact that all the reward for anoms come from bounties. That does not mean null has the best income, said anoms are on par with level 3 income in highsec. That propaganda about how great our great ratting income is in renter space is just that, propaganda. Shock horror, goons are scamming people into paying taxes for useless space. Do you honestly think we would not be using that space ourselves if it was any good?
What I want is a total revamp of income from PVE in all areas of space in the same way that mining, industry, exploration and PI now operate. I think the fact that your alliance can throw hundreds of extremely well equiped supers and titans into a fight is more then enough evidence that nullsec makes plenty of isk. Remember how CCP swore that titans cost so much that only the biggest alliances would be able to field a few? I believe I remember similar statements about super carriers when they were introduced. Seems nullsec income far surpassed even CCP's expectations. I was talking about recruitment banners/images not renter stuff. I've done the renter thing and I've done the big alliance thing. I made more personal isk as a renter but the SRP, intel channels, and such from the big alliance thing certainly made up for the loss in income relative to renting.
My ten billion isk dread was paid for using high sec mission cash. Our last three titans were paid for by high sec mission runners we scammed. Highsec is where we get our funding from.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Commander Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1457
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 10:31:04 -
[933] - Quote
Incursions brought me back into the game.
High degree of respect for all entities and fcs who run these groups.
They don't ask for full API They don't ask for 200mill sp + two dread alts They even have well written fleet doctrines and rookie how tos!
Incursions and the people who organize them are far more useful in the universe than you appear to be able to appreciate.
Huge No to whatever OP is asking / bothered by
Huge round of applause for incursion groups for their inclusive model.
It works, it's not how null sec go about their business and that's bothering you is how your post reads.
You sound like a holy person bashing everyone who walks by with your holy book. Aka a bit of a knob
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
595
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Posted - 2015.05.15 10:36:33 -
[934] - Quote
sorry but what exactly is "useful" about incursion payouts? its only useful to an incursion runner to pad a wallet its not like they have to buy lots of ships every week to replace lost ships
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10999
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 12:54:04 -
[935] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote: as said why buff everything else when you can sort the root of the problem
Because people are short sighted. They don't understand how things work, there for they can't understand that "buffing everything else" results in EVERYTHING costing more, which means the status quo thing they were trying to protect with their denial ends up being functionally less lucrative anyways.
In other words, the folks that cry "just buff null" don't understand that it ends up in the same result as if you just fixed the actual problem in the 1st place. I think it's because when people get into that "greddy defensive mode" that makes them defend something that is obviously (observably, testable and measurably) broken, they lose contact with reality and reason.
It doesn't just happen with isk (hell, it doesn't just happen in gaming). We've seen it time and time again when CCP has had to nerf some outrageous thing, people come out of the wood work with illogical arguments to defend the indefensible (arguments that, as this thread demonstrates, end up actually describing the problem to poster was trying to deny). If it were up to those types of people, we'd all be flying 10 drone 5 MWD 20k meters per second Thoraxes lol, because 'there was nothing wrong with that'.
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Hemmo Paskiainen
477
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 11:46:44 -
[936] - Quote
Commander Spurty wrote:Incursions brought me back into the game.
High degree of respect for all entities and fcs who run these groups.
They don't ask for full API They don't ask for 200mill sp + two dread alts They even have well written fleet doctrines and rookie how tos!
Incursions and the people who organize them are far more useful in the universe than you appear to be able to appreciate.
Huge No to whatever OP is asking / bothered by
Huge round of applause for incursion groups for their inclusive model.
It works, it's not how null sec go about their business and that's bothering you is how your post reads.
You sound like a holy person bashing everyone who walks by with your holy book. Aka a bit of a knob
I have handles the recruitment in a corp in -A- for about 3 yrs: Cutting out the useless weed and profits on 0.0 iskmaking is the main cause of 0.0 recruitment policy. The carebear that refuse to contribute and leaves at first glance when his carebear income stream dries up is just simply a waist of resources and effort. On the other hand, the rookie, that has been properly screened, spy-clean, that has 120% willpower to fight, those got their ships for free at one point.
You see, in EVE the only limit is your willpower to do, create or to make it happen!
"Relativity equals time plus momentum: if it can be erased by a single click on a button, would it be worth spending your time?"
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
395
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 11:56:47 -
[937] - Quote
Burl en Daire wrote:I have to admit that I haven't read the entire thread so what I am about to say may have been said before.
CCP should look at the time it takes Concord to respond or just turn off concord in incursions. That would allow gankers to gank and add risk to the equation.
This has been suggested before, and it is the single most valid idea in this thread.
Sentry gun damage can stay at Hisec levels with the system dropping to <0.4 security status and CONCORD disappearing.
Content, PvP, PvE, risk, reward, roleplay, TRAVEL WARNINGS, new Lore! Doo eeeet.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Cyborg Girl86
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 12:00:08 -
[938] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.
Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?
Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.
---------- FAQ ---------
1-Ganking / Interfere with incursioners
Incursions are 5 years old, there is nothing new about them that someone hasn't thought of and tried in the past to successfully gank incursioners and come out in profit. NO, you won't. NO, there isn't a secret way. Or else there would be plenty of other people doing it already, just think about it, you're not Einstein.
Example most recent fail attempt, 40 machariels with smart bombs, not even 1 incursioners dead, gankers lost billions to concord. Incursioners laughed at you on comms.
2-Make more isks in null / (Insert random wormhole class here)
NO, no you don't. Let's just leave it like that. Null and especially wormholes arent nearly as consistent as incursions. And let's not talk about all the effort, resources and logistics needed, and not mention having to manage capitals in some cases. Oh and the risk.. I don't even wanna go there.
3-Risk being bling ships
What risk? The fact that you are watching titanic and crying about it and forget to broadcast for shields on time?
Also ships aren't as blingy as they once were. People found the sweet spot and most efficient fits in terms of cost/performance nowadays, and to be honest most of them don't even bother with some of the more expensive modules.
4-Station trading
Been there, done that. NO you don't make billions upon billions, don't let people fool you with stories. You need a LOT of effort and work and .01 PvP + being lucky enough there aren't too many traders online to PvP against you. And if the same quantity of people that run incursions would station trade then you wouldn't even make a penny. Also it is WAY too much inconsistent ... And yet STILL you won't make more than incursions on your best day.
This is dumb, but that's just my opinion for whatever its worth.
I'd personally like to see MORE incursions with BIGGER enemy fleets that are harder to kill for more giant EPIC SPACE BATTLES!!!!
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Liafcipe9000
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36442
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 12:04:38 -
[939] - Quote
Cyborg Girl86 wrote:I'd personally like to see MORE incursions with BIGGER enemy fleets that are harder to kill for more giant EPIC SPACE BATTLES!!!! yes for more challenge. EVE Online needs more challenge IMO and incrsuions are probably where it's at for PVE challenges.
also your portrait is one of the most beautiful portraits I've ever seen. you nailed that evil cyborg look perfectly.
I am a cat.
|
Cyborg Girl86
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 12:09:30 -
[940] - Quote
Thank you
I like compliments |
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admiral root
Red Galaxy
2741
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 15:23:28 -
[941] - Quote
Commander Spurty wrote:Incursions brought me back into the game.
High degree of respect for all entities and fcs who run these groups.
They don't ask for full API They don't ask for 200mill sp + two dread alts They even have well written fleet doctrines and rookie how tos!
Incursions and the people who organize them are far more useful in the universe than you appear to be able to appreciate.
Huge No to whatever OP is asking / bothered by
Huge round of applause for incursion groups for their inclusive model.
None of which would be affected by incursion payout being reduced to a sensible level. Of course, many people said things like you before CCP knocked 10% off highsec incursion income. Turns out they were lying, because, IIRC, CCP ended up reversing that fix due to the Thames not being able to handle the sheer volume of salty water that hit the server.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
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Jax Arr
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 14:45:43 -
[942] - Quote
I just don't understand how anyone can say nullsec = more ISK than incursions. You must run with some awful incursion fleets.
Given 1 character, 1 account:
Incursion HQs can net you up to 250m per hour in ISK payout, though it's usually more like 120m average for me. + Concord LP at minimum 1k ISK/LP.
Nullsec running anomolies has been for me about 22m * 3 ticks per hour = 66m usually minus 10% corp tax so 59m or so per hour. +RISK
Sure you can run plexes and maybe hit a jackpot and get a bil or so in loots, or you could only get the overseer effects... but you have to first get an escalation or spend loads of time scanning.
And yes, null-sec is lots and lots of ISK for a large entity because of moongoo, but the typical line member does not see that ISK. Fountain moons are like 17bil gross ISK per day: Fountain Moons
I agree, incursions make too much money, for too little risk. Null-sec needs an income boost for the average joe, IMO. Perhaps there should be 10-40man anomolies in null that net about the same as incursions, and require all indexes to be 5 before they spawn, or something. Null incursions are just meh. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
614
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 14:49:14 -
[943] - Quote
Jax Arr wrote:Sure you can run plexes and maybe hit a jackpot and get a bil or so in loots, or you could only get the overseer effects
hey you didnt mention the silly jumps through nullsec in a 1.7bil marauder to do the 10/10 escalations
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11051
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 14:59:01 -
[944] - Quote
Jax Arr wrote:I just don't understand how anyone can say nullsec = more ISK than incursions. You must run with some awful incursion fleets. Given 1 character, 1 account:Incursion HQs can net you up to 250m per hour in ISK payout, though it's usually more like 120m average for me. + Concord LP at minimum 1k ISK/LP. Nullsec running anomolies has been for me about 22m * 3 ticks per hour = 66m usually minus 10% corp tax so 59m or so per hour. +RISK Sure you can run plexes and maybe hit a jackpot and get a bil or so in loots, or you could only get the overseer effects... but you have to first get an escalation or spend loads of time scanning. And yes, null-sec is lots and lots of ISK for a large entity because of moongoo, but the typical line member does not see that ISK. Fountain moons are like 17bil gross ISK per day: Fountain MoonsI agree, incursions make too much money, for too little risk. Null-sec needs an income boost for the average joe, IMO. Perhaps there should be 10-40man anomolies in null that net about the same as incursions, and require all indexes to be 5 before they spawn, or something. Null incursions are just meh.
+1
Moon goo always comes up in these discussions as if it has something to do with anything. The fix for that is to make moon mining an individual activity rather than something that is structure based. Someone's hulk mining moon goo is a better traget for interference than a freaking **** star lol.
in null it's grunt lvl pve income that indeed needs a boost,but it can't be in the form of more bounties from anomalies, there is too much of that already. My suggestion has always been to lower anom bounties but add a mixture of loyalty points of something like it and tags to wrecks that need to be collected and trade in in empire. Tags would still be an isk faucet, but a delayed one like wormhole blue loot, and one that can be stolen in transit. And LP is an isk sink which would blunt over-expansion of available isk in the game. Even with that, other forms of PVE have to be looked at, higher rewards mean zero when you can still make a certain amount of reward in safe conditions with very little actual effort.
None of the above ideas will ever be considered by people in denial about the problem actually existing though.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11051
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 15:01:18 -
[945] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Jax Arr wrote:Sure you can run plexes and maybe hit a jackpot and get a bil or so in loots, or you could only get the overseer effects hey you didnt mention the silly jumps through nullsec in a 1.7bil marauder to do the 10/10 escalations
I lost a Vargur a few weeks ago in Delve to XXPizza after coming home from doing a 10/10 where I only got the overseers effects. Thank you for reminding me of this traumatic experience. I will now lobby CCP to add "Synth Xanax" to it's list of in game drugs.
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1241
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 15:32:26 -
[946] - Quote
Quote:Null and especially wormholes arent nearly as consistent as incursions.
Reading this thread, it seems either the null dwellers posting suck, or are underrating the income. I never lived there for an extended period and I never made huge ISK from it, so I'm no expert. I know that a couple years ago the Null ratting bots were making as much as Incursion runners hands down. CCP has the confiscated PLEX to prove it.
However, with wormholes, not even close. Before the first Incursion nerf, a C3 WH would easily pull in what VG's made. C4's, when properly run, have always netted more than the spike claim of 250mil/hr. At least for my corp/alliance. I cant imagine that people would be able to fund caps and super caps in null without there being better income than Incursions and wormholes.
If you count strictly ships and POS parts I've lost in wspace, then the loss is bigger than ships I've lost in Incursions. I lost one Mach because my drones that were on assist magically attacked my FC. No one else died so no big deal. However, if you count thing's I've destroyed then stolen in Wspace, the few billion I've lost is nothing compared to the 10's of billions I've taken in. Risk V reward is funny like that, PvE and PvP are 2 separate worlds.
Which brings me to the real point, that its the War Dec system that's really broken, not Incursions IMHO. When some Incursion fleets started griefing other Incursion fleets, I started War dec'ing. And they started running. Its absolutely ridiculous. People making a billion a day cant be arsed with a war.
And therefore I can see why CCP doesn't fix it. If just anybody could stop them from making their money, they would all quit playing Eve. It would do more harm than good to the server economically. And that's why they don't just take them out altogether.
Co-Operative PvE should net more income than non co-op, but the risk should be higher too. Until someone engineers a fix for that its going to stay imbalanced (IMHO its IMBA not broken).
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
405
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 16:00:53 -
[947] - Quote
Jax Arr wrote:And yes, null-sec is lots and lots of ISK for a large entity because of moongoo, but the typical line member does not see that ISK. Fountain moons are like 17bil gross ISK per day: Fountain Moons
Shoooo. Shhh.
Just don't go taking the total Dyspro moonz to the calculator - it breaketh it.
The eternal Cycle mooves on. EVE is going to be saved yet again.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
135
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:03:43 -
[948] - Quote
Jax Arr wrote:I just don't understand how anyone can say nullsec = more ISK than incursions. You must run with some awful incursion fleets. Given 1 character, 1 account:Incursion HQs can net you up to 250m per hour in ISK payout, though it's usually more like 120m average for me. + Concord LP at minimum 1k ISK/LP. Nullsec running anomolies has been for me about 22m * 3 ticks per hour = 66m usually minus 10% corp tax so 59m or so per hour. +RISK Sure you can run plexes and maybe hit a jackpot and get a bil or so in loots, or you could only get the overseer effects... but you have to first get an escalation or spend loads of time scanning. And yes, null-sec is lots and lots of ISK for a large entity because of moongoo, but the typical line member does not see that ISK. Fountain moons are like 17bil gross ISK per day: Fountain MoonsI agree, incursions make too much money, for too little risk. Null-sec needs an income boost for the average joe, IMO. Perhaps there should be 10-40man anomolies in null that net about the same as incursions, and require all indexes to be 5 before they spawn, or something. Null incursions are just meh. I live in fountain now and i dont make billions a week risk free like hisec incursioners. It aint fair.
What about closing the Mom ship farming? Where they keep it alive and not kill it to farm more. What if it like had a set time limit you either had to kill it or it left across new eden somewhere else?
Thats gotta make incursions less of an easy iskfarm and makes sense?
Can we agree? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15935
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:22:14 -
[949] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:
Reading this thread, it seems either the null dwellers posting suck, or are underrating the income. I never lived there for an extended period and I never made huge ISK from it, so I'm no expert. I know that a couple years ago the Null ratting bots were making as much as Incursion runners hands down. CCP has the confiscated PLEX to prove it.
80% of bots are found in highsec. Bots haven't been a thing in null for at least 7 years now and they have never pulled in incursion level isk.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2771
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 05:39:24 -
[950] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:
Reading this thread, it seems either the null dwellers posting suck, or are underrating the income. I never lived there for an extended period and I never made huge ISK from it, so I'm no expert. I know that a couple years ago the Null ratting bots were making as much as Incursion runners hands down. CCP has the confiscated PLEX to prove it.
80% of bots are found in highsec. Bots haven't been a thing in null for at least 7 years now and they have never pulled in incursion level isk.
huh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX2Tn50UYFw move ahead to 30:40 or so
Looks like bots are a thing in all parts of space.
Juss sayan
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
|
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners. Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 05:56:15 -
[951] - Quote
Rather than nerf high sec incursions make null sec incursion between all the pirate factions. Make the Null/SOV corps have to have standings with the pirate corps to reduce incursion effects and give them plenty of bounty isk. That's what the null bears want right ?More lucrative PVE? There you go null bear enjoy! |
beakerax
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
103
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 06:05:09 -
[952] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:What about closing the Mom ship farming? Where they keep it alive and not kill it to farm more. I'd be interested to see what would happen if the payouts for mom sites were significantly increased (in propotion to HQ sites, anyway). There's no incentive to kill them when you could run two HQ sites and make the same payout in less time with fewer people.
Quote:What if it like had a set time limit you either had to kill it or it left across new eden somewhere else? They already do, sort of. They're not quick about it though. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
37470
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 06:14:18 -
[953] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Rather than nerf high sec incursions make null sec incursion between all the pirate factions. Make the Null/SOV corps have to have standings with the pirate corps to reduce incursion effects and give them plenty of bounty isk. That's what the null bears want right ?More lucrative PVE? There you go null bear enjoy! What?
So Serpentis would start an incursion in space they are already heavily operating in? Or Gurista, etc.?
Why would they need to launch an incursion in space they are already effectively covering?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners. Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 06:55:45 -
[954] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Rather than nerf high sec incursions make null sec incursion between all the pirate factions. Make the Null/SOV corps have to have standings with the pirate corps to reduce incursion effects and give them plenty of bounty isk. That's what the null bears want right ?More lucrative PVE? There you go null bear enjoy! What? So Serpentis would start an incursion in space they are already heavily operating in? Or Gurista, etc.? Why would they need to launch an incursion in space they are already effectively covering? The way it is laid out, it makes very little sense. What's wrong with control/influence as the mechanism for calculating the incursion effects and how would anyone develop good standing with the group they are constantly shooting?
EVE is harsh.
But just change the system benefits like incursions does in the systems. You could use SP, attack FW, pirate missions, or attack opposing NPCs. Just give the nullbears some better PVE so they don't feel left out of high sec incursions. |
Silver Price
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 06:56:27 -
[955] - Quote
i hope CCP doesn't answer this thread, this is another opinionated person who thinks they are the CEO of CCP.
just because you don't like something in eve, doesn't mean you have to hate on it, go back to doing whatever you think is fun.
if CCP answered all the nerf high sec threads, you'd have people complaining that EVE is only a PvP game and nothing else. the reason why warcraft sucks so much today is because blizzard has answered to all the whiney losers on the forums, and those same whiney losers get bored of the game after a monthly sub.
some people need to realize that subjective thoughts are not facts, and that arguing subjective thoughts is primitive.
"i like the color blue" screw you man yellow is better "how can you like yellow, its the color of ****, please nerf it and change it to blue" dude if **** was blue my toilet would not change colors and i'd think i'm colorblind "shut up man, everything needs to be blue, because i'm special, everyone should listen to me" oh wow, we should change the color of the sun then "yes, and please CCP make caldari the only race in EVE, all other races are inferior and i hate them all, so remove them or i quit" so you don't like amarr huh "those religious morons, i hate them, and i hate you too you damn carebear, get out of amarr space"
thats the TLDR of this thread. special snowflakes arguing about which shape is better. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
302
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 07:51:38 -
[956] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: I live in fountain now and i dont make billions a week risk free like hisec incursioners. It aint fair.
What about closing the Mom ship farming? Where they keep it alive and not kill it to farm more. What if it like had a set time limit you either had to kill it or it left across new eden somewhere else?
Thats gotta make incursions less of an easy iskfarm and makes sense?
Can we agree?
Another Brave Newbie and future FozzieSov resident railroaded by our corrupt and self-serving HiSec incursion system.
Seriously, I have the utmost respect for brave and their mission. I really hope things turn around and they make Sov work for you and fun groups like Brave. You should convince enough of your Brave people to either post in this thread or raise these issues to their CSM representative.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
627
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 08:02:35 -
[957] - Quote
Silver Price wrote:just because you don't like something in eve, doesn't mean you have to hate on it.
yes we do otherwise the game would never change and everything would remain broken
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
37471
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 08:19:10 -
[958] - Quote
Silver Price wrote:some people need to realize that subjective thoughts are not facts, and that arguing subjective thoughts is primitive. That's very subjective.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15939
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 11:01:06 -
[959] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:baltec1 wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:
Reading this thread, it seems either the null dwellers posting suck, or are underrating the income. I never lived there for an extended period and I never made huge ISK from it, so I'm no expert. I know that a couple years ago the Null ratting bots were making as much as Incursion runners hands down. CCP has the confiscated PLEX to prove it.
80% of bots are found in highsec. Bots haven't been a thing in null for at least 7 years now and they have never pulled in incursion level isk. huh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX2Tn50UYFw move ahead to 30:40 or so Looks like bots are a thing in all parts of space. Juss sayan m
It used to be the other way around with a raven in almost every null systems belt ratting. Today the forge and lonetrek are where you find the bulk of the bots and its been like that for the last 5-7 years now, as your link shows.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2203
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 11:05:55 -
[960] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: It used to be the other way around with a raven in almost every null systems belt ratting. Today the forge and lonetrek are where you find the bulk of the bots and its been like that for the last 5-7 years now, as your link shows.
So the bots are distributed in a similar manner to the player base, shock horror, also bots being 'concentrated' in those regions of space highly suggests a whole lot of mining bots rather than anything else in highsec. So.... your point? That 7 years ago they nerfed belt ratting a little? |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15939
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 11:14:14 -
[961] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:baltec1 wrote: It used to be the other way around with a raven in almost every null systems belt ratting. Today the forge and lonetrek are where you find the bulk of the bots and its been like that for the last 5-7 years now, as your link shows.
So the bots are distributed in a similar manner to the player base, shock horror, also bots being 'concentrated' in those regions of space highly suggests a whole lot of mining bots rather than anything else in highsec. So.... your point? That 7 years ago they nerfed belt ratting a little?
If you had watched that video you would have seen they show both mining AND pve combat activities.
To your second point, belt ratting was doomed right from the start but yes, there as also been a few nerfs. See belt ratting used to be good isk but most of the reward is in the form of bounties and as time went past the reward went down due to inflation. Isk today will buy you half of what it used to back then so the effective income from belt ratting has been halfed simple due to inflation. On top of this came the loot nerfs (much needed for mining) which further eroded their worth.
Bots go where the isk is, which is why they used to be everywhere in null, today the bulk of them are in the forge and lonetreck regions because thats where the isk is.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
420
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 11:24:37 -
[962] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:baltec1 wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:
Reading this thread, it seems either the null dwellers posting suck, or are underrating the income. I never lived there for an extended period and I never made huge ISK from it, so I'm no expert. I know that a couple years ago the Null ratting bots were making as much as Incursion runners hands down. CCP has the confiscated PLEX to prove it.
80% of bots are found in highsec. Bots haven't been a thing in null for at least 7 years now and they have never pulled in incursion level isk. huh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX2Tn50UYFw move ahead to 30:40 or so Looks like bots are a thing in all parts of space. Juss sayan m
Mike, they have a presentation of the same in pdf format - http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/67092/1/Fanfest_2015_-_Team_Security_-_Better_Safe_Than_Sorry.pdf
Fascinating slide on page 17, relevant to Incursions as well, or is that especially?
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11079
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 12:29:52 -
[963] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:baltec1 wrote: It used to be the other way around with a raven in almost every null systems belt ratting. Today the forge and lonetrek are where you find the bulk of the bots and its been like that for the last 5-7 years now, as your link shows.
So the bots are distributed in a similar manner to the player base, shock horror, also bots being 'concentrated' in those regions of space highly suggests a whole lot of mining bots rather than anything else in highsec. So.... your point? That 7 years ago they nerfed belt ratting a little? If you had watched that video you would have seen they show both mining AND pve combat activities. To your second point, belt ratting was doomed right from the start but yes, there as also been a few nerfs. See belt ratting used to be good isk but most of the reward is in the form of bounties and as time went past the reward went down due to inflation. Isk today will buy you half of what it used to back then so the effective income from belt ratting has been halfed simple due to inflation. On top of this came the loot nerfs (much needed for mining) which further eroded their worth. Bots go where the isk is, which is why they used to be everywhere in null, today the bulk of them are in the forge and lonetreck regions because thats where the isk is.
Imagine that Baltec, The poster you replied to who proves he's not interested in the actual truth of the matter didn't realize that the information he was presenting proved the exact opposite of what he believes (belief arrived at via ZERO personal testing or experience)? That's never happened before
More seriously, without the good will that comes from actual honesty, no discussion like this ever goes anywhere. Discussions about income/wealth (in a game and out ofit) always suffer from dishonesty born of ideological stubbornness. It's sillier in a game (not just because it's a game, but because what we are talking about IS personally testable and observable yet the main deniers refuse to undertake to do this), but it's just as real as when people do it in real life.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1819
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 13:48:54 -
[964] - Quote
GankYou wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:baltec1 wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:
Reading this thread, it seems either the null dwellers posting suck, or are underrating the income. I never lived there for an extended period and I never made huge ISK from it, so I'm no expert. I know that a couple years ago the Null ratting bots were making as much as Incursion runners hands down. CCP has the confiscated PLEX to prove it.
80% of bots are found in highsec. Bots haven't been a thing in null for at least 7 years now and they have never pulled in incursion level isk. huh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX2Tn50UYFw move ahead to 30:40 or so Looks like bots are a thing in all parts of space. Juss sayan m Mike, they have a presentation of the same in pdf format - http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/67092/1/Fanfest_2015_-_Team_Security_-_Better_Safe_Than_Sorry.pdf Fascinating slide on page 17, relevant to Incursions as well, or is that especially?
While the lion share are still in HS, there are more and more region in null that have dots appearing for banned bots in NS on the heat map pages 41-42 and 44-45. For all the "bots aren't a thing in null" speak, the heat map show many region used to not even show up on the heat map and do now.
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Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. Brave Collective
372
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:40:21 -
[965] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: I live in fountain now and i dont make billions a week risk free like hisec incursioners. It aint fair.
What about closing the Mom ship farming? Where they keep it alive and not kill it to farm more. What if it like had a set time limit you either had to kill it or it left across new eden somewhere else?
Thats gotta make incursions less of an easy iskfarm and makes sense?
Can we agree?
Another Brave Newbie and future FozzieSov resident railroaded by our corrupt and self-serving HiSec incursion system. Seriously, I have the utmost respect for brave and their mission. I really hope things turn around and they make Sov work for you and fun groups like Brave. You should convince enough of your Brave people to either post in this thread or raise these issues to their CSM representative.
The quoted Newbie most definitely doesn't represent the opinion of Brave Newbies Inc.
|
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly.
633
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:43:29 -
[966] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote: I live in fountain now and i dont make billions a week risk free like hisec incursioners. It aint fair.
What about closing the Mom ship farming? Where they keep it alive and not kill it to farm more. What if it like had a set time limit you either had to kill it or it left across new eden somewhere else?
Thats gotta make incursions less of an easy iskfarm and makes sense?
Can we agree?
Another Brave Newbie and future FozzieSov resident railroaded by our corrupt and self-serving HiSec incursion system. Seriously, I have the utmost respect for brave and their mission. I really hope things turn around and they make Sov work for you and fun groups like Brave. You should convince enough of your Brave people to either post in this thread or raise these issues to their CSM representative. The quoted Newbie most definitely doesn't represent the opinion of Brave Newbies Inc.
i dont see anywhere where she claimed to represent the opinion of brave what on earth are you talking about?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Joe Atei
Aes Dei Asher
11
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 19:25:53 -
[967] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:What about closing the Mom ship farming? Where they keep it alive and not kill it to farm more. I'd be interested to see what would happen if the payouts for mom sites were significantly increased (in propotion to HQ sites, anyway). There's no incentive to kill them when you could run two HQ sites and make the same payout in less time with fewer people. Quote:What if it like had a set time limit you either had to kill it or it left across new eden somewhere else? They already do, sort of. They're not quick about it though.
If the incentive is high enough, but not too high, this could work very well in actually reducing total isk paid out. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
169
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:51:03 -
[968] - Quote
Sitting in a trade hub and buying/selling has no risk what so ever. Please remove that cash cow from the game.
And please make it so I don't have to leave the safety of my nullsec zerg of death to make isk. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15942
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:00:12 -
[969] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Sitting in a trade hub and buying/selling has no risk what so ever. Please remove that cash cow from the game.
And please make it so I don't have to leave the safety of my nullsec zerg of death to make isk.
Again with this myth.
Trading is PvP and it is very risky. Just ask anyone who had investments in genelution implants.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
2776
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:39:14 -
[970] - Quote
We are wandering off topic, here.
I agree with whoever said earlier that the main issue is perception vs truth in income and isk flow. Grass is always greener and 'we got it tough, up hills both ways in the snow' start to muddy the waters. Then ridiculous maxima are thrown about as if they are what every person engaged in that activity makes as opposed to what the most efficient bling fleet can take down.
muddy water
If something is good, people will go to it, that will diminish the returns due to either market forces or diminishing availability of the resource itself. Incursions have a carrying capacity beyond which the returns drop. I assume the same goes for null anoms and even moons. Wormholes and faction war? Each seems to have an upper limit of income and then it becomes how is it divided and allocated. Is it to a group, to the solo pilot? To the holding corp or alliance?
Last thing we want is someone horning in on OUR income but you might like more targets to shoot so you ask for other incomes to be nerfed to the point that yours is the only game in town. But that isn't what Eve is or what it shuld be. Some people want to be solo, let them. Others like running with a group of people, that should be allowed as well as an income stream. Large organizataions need their income to stay viable . . . moons.
Conclusion for me is that if YOU think all the money is in Incursions then run them. Either it will make the payouts lessen as people compete for the resource or you will get rich.
No, I do not support nerfing them (though I would like to see the scouts sites rewritten)
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15947
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 05:10:32 -
[971] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:We are wandering off topic, here.
I agree with whoever said earlier that the main issue is perception vs truth in income and isk flow. Grass is always greener and 'we got it tough, up hills both ways in the snow' start to muddy the waters. Then ridiculous maxima are thrown about as if they are what every person engaged in that activity makes as opposed to what the most efficient bling fleet can take down.
muddy water
If something is good, people will go to it, that will diminish the returns due to either market forces or diminishing availability of the resource itself. Incursions have a carrying capacity beyond which the returns drop. I assume the same goes for null anoms and even moons. Wormholes and faction war? Each seems to have an upper limit of income and then it becomes how is it divided and allocated. Is it to a group, to the solo pilot? To the holding corp or alliance?
Last thing we want is someone horning in on OUR income but you might like more targets to shoot so you ask for other incomes to be nerfed to the point that yours is the only game in town. But that isn't what Eve is or what it shuld be. Some people want to be solo, let them. Others like running with a group of people, that should be allowed as well as an income stream. Large organizataions need their income to stay viable . . . moons.
Conclusion for me is that if YOU think all the money is in Incursions then run them. Either it will make the payouts lessen as people compete for the resource or you will get rich.
No, I do not support nerfing them (though I would like to see the scouts sites rewritten)
m
We do run them, that's the problem. Its not a case of people being jealous of other peoples grass being greener its about pointing out big problems with game imbalances that we are actively abusing.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1037
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 05:28:05 -
[972] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:We are wandering off topic, here.
I agree with whoever said earlier that the main issue is perception vs truth in income and isk flow. Grass is always greener and 'we got it tough, up hills both ways in the snow' start to muddy the waters. Then ridiculous maxima are thrown about as if they are what every person engaged in that activity makes as opposed to what the most efficient bling fleet can take down.
muddy water
If something is good, people will go to it, that will diminish the returns due to either market forces or diminishing availability of the resource itself. Incursions have a carrying capacity beyond which the returns drop. I assume the same goes for null anoms and even moons. Wormholes and faction war? Each seems to have an upper limit of income and then it becomes how is it divided and allocated. Is it to a group, to the solo pilot? To the holding corp or alliance?
Last thing we want is someone horning in on OUR income but you might like more targets to shoot so you ask for other incomes to be nerfed to the point that yours is the only game in town. But that isn't what Eve is or what it shuld be. Some people want to be solo, let them. Others like running with a group of people, that should be allowed as well as an income stream. Large organizataions need their income to stay viable . . . moons.
Conclusion for me is that if YOU think all the money is in Incursions then run them. Either it will make the payouts lessen as people compete for the resource or you will get rich.
No, I do not support nerfing them (though I would like to see the scouts sites rewritten)
m We do run them, that's the problem. Its not a case of people being jealous of other peoples grass being greener its about pointing out big problems with game imbalances that we are actively abusing.
And just to add to that, no one is seriously asking to remove incursions and ruin someone else's fun. Just rein them in a bit so that someone who is looking at their options for the highest ISK/hr isn't forced to choose highsec incursions because the risk vs reward balances for them is just head-and-shoulders above almost everything else in the game.
People should not feel that they cannot earn a living in their chosen home. On an individual level is this not just a perception - it is a fact that there is no other way to make near the maximum PvE income with so little risk - and people are leaving more dangerous space because of this.
EDIT: I'll just add a personal anecdote to highlight how important risk vs. reward is. I am a mostly solo player, but I am now quite comfortable leaving highsec and doing many things in the game. The first time I went to lowsec was to set up a PI operation. Why? Because the planets offered significantly more reward than highsec so I took the risk. The first time I went to null? It was for exploration sites for exactly the same reason. Now I make most of my income trading, but if I want to relax with some PvE I run gas sites in wormholes as although it is risky, is the most lucrative way to mine for a solo player to mine and I don't mind taking that risk for the greater reward.
But if I gave up trading and want to scale up my PvE activities to make the most ISK for a specific goal? Looking at what is on offer there is no choice. I would have to grind highsec incursions (or possibly lowsec FW missions) because nothing else holds a candle to the risk vs. reward balance for making ISK.
Risk vs. reward matters. It does influence people's gameplay. And right now people are being forced to run highsec incursions whether they like them or not. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
2114
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 08:29:46 -
[973] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Syn Shi wrote:Sitting in a trade hub and buying/selling has no risk what so ever. Please remove that cash cow from the game.
And please make it so I don't have to leave the safety of my nullsec zerg of death to make isk. Again with this myth. Trading is PvP and it is very risky. Just ask anyone who had investments in genelution implants. I'd like to see a bit more direct PvP, maybe in the form of the seller's/buyer's name and corp on orders.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
432
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 11:24:19 -
[974] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Syn Shi wrote:Sitting in a trade hub and buying/selling has no risk what so ever. Please remove that cash cow from the game.
And please make it so I don't have to leave the safety of my nullsec zerg of death to make isk. Again with this myth. Trading is PvP and it is very risky. Just ask anyone who had investments in genelution implants.
And inherently pays a very substantial portion of the ISK sinks to keep the system healthy.
Definitely a myth that it is risk-free - I've lost billions before to fat finger order modifications.
Zappity wrote:baltec1 wrote:Syn Shi wrote:Sitting in a trade hub and buying/selling has no risk what so ever. Please remove that cash cow from the game.
And please make it so I don't have to leave the safety of my nullsec zerg of death to make isk. Again with this myth. Trading is PvP and it is very risky. Just ask anyone who had investments in genelution implants. I'd like to see a bit more direct PvP, maybe in the form of the seller's/buyer's name and corp on orders.
Nyaah.
The real marketplace has always been anonymous to professionals. Amateurs proclaim their presence, positions and exposure with tens of billions ISK-worth of commodities in a single sell order.
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
|
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
405
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 03:40:25 -
[975] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:We are wandering off topic, here.
I agree with whoever said earlier that the main issue is perception vs truth in income and isk flow. Grass is always greener and 'we got it tough, up hills both ways in the snow' start to muddy the waters. Then ridiculous maxima are thrown about as if they are what every person engaged in that activity makes as opposed to what the most efficient bling fleet can take down.
muddy water
If something is good, people will go to it, that will diminish the returns due to either market forces or diminishing availability of the resource itself. Incursions have a carrying capacity beyond which the returns drop. I assume the same goes for null anoms and even moons. Wormholes and faction war? Each seems to have an upper limit of income and then it becomes how is it divided and allocated. Is it to a group, to the solo pilot? To the holding corp or alliance?
Last thing we want is someone horning in on OUR income but you might like more targets to shoot so you ask for other incomes to be nerfed to the point that yours is the only game in town. But that isn't what Eve is or what it shuld be. Some people want to be solo, let them. Others like running with a group of people, that should be allowed as well as an income stream. Large organizataions need their income to stay viable . . . moons.
Conclusion for me is that if YOU think all the money is in Incursions then run them. Either it will make the payouts lessen as people compete for the resource or you will get rich.
No, I do not support nerfing them (though I would like to see the scouts sites rewritten)
m We do run them, that's the problem. Its not a case of people being jealous of other peoples grass being greener its about pointing out big problems with game imbalances that we are actively abusing.
I think im going to start runnimg them on an alt. Bet i can plex my account in a few hours one weekend a month. Goodbye sub fee |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
12676
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 03:47:04 -
[976] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:I think im going to start runnimg them on an alt. Bet i can plex my account in a few hours one weekend a month. Goodbye sub fee Or you can go get your job back at walmart, work a weekend, and keep your account going all year w/o needed to farm your life away. Just a thought...
I'm in it for the money
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two Reckoning Star Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 04:39:47 -
[977] - Quote
I hope they remove isk from the game, its bad for it. |
Commander Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1556
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 10:49:36 -
[978] - Quote
Sasha Sen wrote:I hope they remove isk from the game, its bad for it.
And kill mails.
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
|
Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1557
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 10:49:36 -
[979] - Quote
Sasha Sen wrote:I hope they remove isk from the game, its bad for it.
And kill mails.
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
|
Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
203
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 10:54:21 -
[980] - Quote
Commander Spurty wrote:Sasha Sen wrote:I hope they remove isk from the game, its bad for it. And kill mails.
And ships too. All the obsession over ships is just unhealthy. Once they remove ships, modules become unnecessary, so they can go ahead and remove those too.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 11:09:04 -
[981] - Quote
Wonder if somebody will start null sec pve nerf threads.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
14257
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 11:29:11 -
[982] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:Wonder if somebody will start null sec pve nerf threads.
Where have you been? The primary defensive whine when people bring up how obscene incursions are is about null ratting. Nevermind that at best it's half of what incursions make AND requires a carrier to make that much AND comes in the far inferior form of liquid isk.
Income as a whole needs rebalanced from the ground up(with risk vs reward being the key component), because in pretty much every level of space bar wormholes it is broken.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 11:55:46 -
[983] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Wonder if somebody will start null sec pve nerf threads. Where have you been? The primary defensive whine when people bring up how obscene incursions are is about null ratting. Nevermind that at best it's half of what incursions make AND requires a carrier to make that much AND comes in the far inferior form of liquid isk. Income as a whole needs rebalanced from the ground up(with risk vs reward being the key component), because in pretty much every level of space bar wormholes it is broken.
There is no whine as I don't run incursions. I'm simply annoyed by the huge amount of "nurf dat" number of threads that popped up after fuzzy sov made isk ticks uncertain in the blue goatze.
Btw, what risk there is behind renting ratting space in null?
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12154
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 12:16:39 -
[984] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Wonder if somebody will start null sec pve nerf threads. Where have you been? The primary defensive whine when people bring up how obscene incursions are is about null ratting. Nevermind that at best it's half of what incursions make AND requires a carrier to make that much AND comes in the far inferior form of liquid isk. Income as a whole needs rebalanced from the ground up(with risk vs reward being the key component), because in pretty much every level of space bar wormholes it is broken. There is no whine as I don't run incursions. I'm simply annoyed by the huge amount of "nurf dat" number of threads that popped up after fuzzy sov made isk ticks uncertain in the blue goatze.
I guess you missed how old this thread is, and how we've been talking about this imbalance for almost 6 years...
Quote: Btw, what risk there is behind renting ratting space in null?
The risk of not being able to care for it because unfriendly people are always there looking to kill you, and unlike in high sec incursions, magical space police won't come and help you? You mean that risk?
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12154
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 12:21:26 -
[985] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:We are wandering off topic, here.
I agree with whoever said earlier that the main issue is perception vs truth in income and isk flow. Grass is always greener and 'we got it tough, up hills both ways in the snow' start to muddy the waters. Then ridiculous maxima are thrown about as if they are what every person engaged in that activity makes as opposed to what the most efficient bling fleet can take down.
muddy water
If something is good, people will go to it, that will diminish the returns due to either market forces or diminishing availability of the resource itself. Incursions have a carrying capacity beyond which the returns drop. I assume the same goes for null anoms and even moons. Wormholes and faction war? Each seems to have an upper limit of income and then it becomes how is it divided and allocated. Is it to a group, to the solo pilot? To the holding corp or alliance?
Last thing we want is someone horning in on OUR income but you might like more targets to shoot so you ask for other incomes to be nerfed to the point that yours is the only game in town. But that isn't what Eve is or what it shuld be. Some people want to be solo, let them. Others like running with a group of people, that should be allowed as well as an income stream. Large organizataions need their income to stay viable . . . moons.
Conclusion for me is that if YOU think all the money is in Incursions then run them. Either it will make the payouts lessen as people compete for the resource or you will get rich.
No, I do not support nerfing them (though I would like to see the scouts sites rewritten)
m We do run them, that's the problem. Its not a case of people being jealous of other peoples grass being greener its about pointing out big problems with game imbalances that we are actively abusing.
You can tell him and people who think like him that over and over and over and over again, complete with screen shots of your own wallet and a video of you yourself flying a ship in a high sec incursion fleet and they will STILL default to that "you are just jealous of other people's income" line.
They have to do that, people who know they are wrong have to modify the terms of the argument to make themselves less wrong, as this is way easier than acknowledging an uncomfortable (and less profitable...) truth. The funny thing is most of the people supporting an obviously broken system don't even run incursions of any kind at all, they are simply defending their 'ideological homeland' aka High sec. |
Horus V
The Destined
101
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 12:36:45 -
[986] - Quote
+1
V
|
Crystalline Entity
Outdated Host Productions Mortum Ravagers
17
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 12:44:07 -
[987] - Quote
I am pretty important as is my allice |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 12:54:25 -
[988] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Wonder if somebody will start null sec pve nerf threads. Where have you been? The primary defensive whine when people bring up how obscene incursions are is about null ratting. Nevermind that at best it's half of what incursions make AND requires a carrier to make that much AND comes in the far inferior form of liquid isk. Income as a whole needs rebalanced from the ground up(with risk vs reward being the key component), because in pretty much every level of space bar wormholes it is broken. There is no whine as I don't run incursions. I'm simply annoyed by the huge amount of "nurf dat" number of threads that popped up after fuzzy sov made isk ticks uncertain in the blue goatze. I guess you missed how old this thread is, and how we've been talking about this imbalance for almost 6 years... Quote: Btw, what risk there is behind renting ratting space in null?
The risk of not being able to care for it because unfriendly people are always there looking to kill you, and unlike in high sec incursions, magical space police won't come and help you? You mean that risk?
Don't think you got my question.
I asked what risk is there for you, as sov owner, to rent a few systems to other players for ratting purposes. You can sit on your butt , docked, while billions roll in corp account without doing nadda. You don't risk anything, the players who pay you the rent (in order to rat) are risking their ships.
Be serious there are no unfriendly people in null, they're all blue and if you see red in local you leave or dock because there's no magical police around to help you. Or are you trying to tell me you take your ratting carrier in hostile space?
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12156
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 13:10:10 -
[989] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:
Don't think you got my question.
I asked what risk is there for you, as sov owner, to rent a few systems to other players for ratting purposes. You can sit on your butt , docked, while billions roll in corp account without doing nadda. You don't risk anything, the players who pay you the rent (in order to rat) are risking their ships.
And what exactly does the above have to do with anything. Also, why no comparison to how much isk Incursion community leaders are skimming off the top (you know it's they who provide the boosters who get tipped after every site by 40-50 people in fleet, as well as usually being the same people who seed the incursion focus markets with needed items and even run ship transport services).
That alliance leader guy is at risk of losing his space thus not being able to rent, NOTHING but the closing of Tranquility can stop the money train enjoyed by the (at best) couple dozen individuals who dominate the Incursions Communities. So again, why are you worried about null leaders when ignoring the same behavior from incursion community leaders?
Quote: Be serious there are no unfriendly people in null, they're all blue and if you see red in local you leave or dock because there's no magical police around to help you. Or are you trying to tell me you take your ratting carrier in hostile space?
I don't rat in a carrier. I rat in Deadspace fit Machariels and Tengus and Ishtars and Gilas and the occasional Rattlesnake . And I go into hostile territory (Scalding Pass, Detorid, even Curse) with them all the time. Can't post killmails here, but I lost a rattlesnake in Wicked Creek on an alt on the 6th of last month. You can find it on zkillboard, that alt is in the same corp you see me in. Ironic thing is that it was NCDot, my former alliance, that killed me.
From the sounds of it, you don't have much experience with PVE, or with null, and probably not with incursions specifically. |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 14:19:51 -
[990] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
From the sounds of it, you don't have much experience with PVE, or with null, and probably not with incursions specifically.
That's correct. No incursion experience what so ever.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
|
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12156
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 14:29:52 -
[991] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
From the sounds of it, you don't have much experience with PVE, or with null, and probably not with incursions specifically.
That's correct. No incursion experience what so ever.
I figured as much, because most of the people that defend such an obviously broken situation tend to be that way.
The actual truth is that incursion runners KNOW that it's crazy to make that kind of income in the safety of high sec and are just milking it because it exists, I sure as hell was. Hellfire, a sizable portion of the incursion running community are people like me (non-high sec players using high sec alt).
I have not run high sec incursions since I came back to null about 2 months ago, but last time I did I was on TVP comms and people were talking openly about their null alliances. One guy even posted a killmail in teamspeak chat, of a Sabre that his AFK ISHTAR (he has 3 of them running while he incursions....and still makes more from the incursion btw) had just auto-killed somewhere up north (the ishtar character was a member of 'Get Off My Lawn').
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol. |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 14:38:00 -
[992] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
|
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
319
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 14:43:33 -
[993] - Quote
I've run Incursions. They're dreadfully boring, even compared to ratting in null. Some might liek that kind of thing though. Blitzing so far is the only thing that's been on par(as in not boring) with what I used to do for isk; mix of full clear missioning with marauder and exploration. Makes a bit more, more reliably though but it's hard to keep it up for longer than 3h or so. Best for me with regards to engagement and income was C5 wormholes before Hyperion. |
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6929
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 14:44:28 -
[994] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities.
Single account here, and hardly any grinding at all. I mostly PVP. Thanks for the fish! ^_^
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12156
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 14:48:52 -
[995] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities.
It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better.
I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand.
|
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
934
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 14:57:54 -
[996] - Quote
Quote: No, I do not support nerfing them (though I would like to see the scouts sites rewritten)
Agreed,those sites are 100% wrong.
I wouldnt mind deminishing returns the longer inc is up or spawning additional rats per site and in systems infected harrasing and attacking stuff. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16515
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 15:01:59 -
[997] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:[quote=Jenn aSide][quote=Gimme]
Be serious there are no unfriendly people in null, they're all blue.
This comment tells us you have never lived in null.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
266
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 15:02:23 -
[998] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities. It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better. I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand.
Your ingorance is only surpased by your ego..... For starters, yes it's only 33mil/day to get a plex. But then you factor in the need for ships, mods, drones, ammo, etc and suddenly you need a whole lot more per day. Consider you like flying T2/T3 ships where you don't insurance and you need even more to replace the loss. Now add in the fact that maybe you only have time to log in on the weekend or maybe an hour a day and suddenly you're only logging on to "grind" the isk so that you can pay for a plex in hopes that 1 day you'll have more time/RL isk to play more.
--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
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Bellatrix Invicta
The Conference Elite CODE.
178
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 15:05:21 -
[999] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities. It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better. I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand. Your ingorance is only surpased by your ego..... For starters, yes it's only 33mil/day to get a plex. But then you factor in the need for ships, mods, drones, ammo, etc and suddenly you need a whole lot more per day. Consider you like flying T2/T3 ships where you don't insurance and you need even more to replace the loss. Now add in the fact that maybe you only have time to log in on the weekend or maybe an hour a day and suddenly you're only logging on to "grind" the isk so that you can pay for a plex in hopes that 1 day you'll have more time/RL isk to play more.
So quit grinding for PLEX. It's pretty simple. It's only you making it a "grinder".
If you think you've won, think again.
The CODE always wins.
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12156
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 15:16:03 -
[1000] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities. It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better. I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand. Your ingorance is only surpased by your ego..... For starters, yes it's only 33mil/day to get a plex. But then you factor in the need for ships, mods, drones, ammo, etc and suddenly you need a whole lot more per day. Consider you like flying T2/T3 ships where you don't insurance and you need even more to replace the loss. Now add in the fact that maybe you only have time to log in on the weekend or maybe an hour a day and suddenly you're only logging on to "grind" the isk so that you can pay for a plex in hopes that 1 day you'll have more time/RL isk to play more.
If you don't have a lot of time to play, WHY do you need a plex anyways?
The problem with every.single.person. who complains about plex prices and 'grinding' is their screwed up sense of entitlement. They think they DESERVE to be able to use plex to pay a sub (that in terms of cash only cost 2 freaking quarters) that they barely even use.
What I've always found irritating is that people post these stupid things like that post i'm quoting, and yet somehow I'm the problem lol.
|
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Panthe3 Black
The Branded Few Test Alliance Please Ignore
111
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 22:23:59 -
[1001] - Quote
End these threads |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2123
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 22:36:23 -
[1002] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Yun Kuai wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities. It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better. I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand. Your ingorance is only surpased by your ego..... For starters, yes it's only 33mil/day to get a plex. But then you factor in the need for ships, mods, drones, ammo, etc and suddenly you need a whole lot more per day. Consider you like flying T2/T3 ships where you don't insurance and you need even more to replace the loss. Now add in the fact that maybe you only have time to log in on the weekend or maybe an hour a day and suddenly you're only logging on to "grind" the isk so that you can pay for a plex in hopes that 1 day you'll have more time/RL isk to play more. If you don't have a lot of time to play, WHY do you need a plex anyways? The problem with every.single.person. who complains about plex prices and 'grinding' is their screwed up sense of entitlement. They think they DESERVE to be able to use plex to pay a sub (that in terms of cash only cost 2 freaking quarters) that they barely even use. What I've always found irritating is that people post these stupid things like that post i'm quoting, and yet somehow I'm the problem lol.
But paying is for plebs so they can't lower themselves to that...
I do but I'm a pleb so vOv... |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
231
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 01:00:00 -
[1003] - Quote
Thread was a good read.
Most of you seem obsessed with isk per hour, I'm happy making some isk, I've never even bothered to measure how much I get per hour. lol
I did try incursions once and remembered being bored after just 1 incursion site, I sold my shiny ship and headed back to Stain.
From a role-play point of view id say incursions are ok if that's your thing. Sansha forces have found a way to attack hi-sec and Concord are paying high rewards for brave pilots to defend it. I'm aware that incursions pay lots of isk and I think they need a revamp rather than a nerf.
So I have a few suggestions to revamp incursions;
- Sansha invades a system like Jita and shuts down stargates and bubbles the station forcing incursion runners to make fleets and defend, this might justify the large isk payments if there is a real chance of losing a shiny ship if a mistake is made. Maybe we could see stations destroyed and rebuilt, cool stuff like that.
- Give Sansha the power to disrupt sovereignty of hi sec systems with well organised NPC PVP fleets which incursion runners will have to face if they want the large isk payment.
- Generally design the Sansha incursions so that they have real consequences on high sec dwellers, so lets say the Eve community did nothing while Sansha attacked The Forge region and took over Jita M4 CNAP perhaps we could see things like increased sell/buy order taxes and sansha doing gate camps.
Eve is a dark and brutal game and I think these general suggestions will help to make it more real, why should NPC's not suffer in this harsh reality?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Salvos Rhoska
1265
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 01:04:30 -
[1004] - Quote
Oh man, I missed this train completely.
I started another thread recently not realizing this one already existed.
Reference here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=441602
My conclusion was to disable CONCORD in HS Incursion systems.
The systems already anyways operate under different rules, and would inject some PvP into HS. Particularly to mediate the ridiculous multibillion "safe" fits Incursion runners fly around with and grade themselves on.
Its bad. Has to stop. In explosions.
------------
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
87
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 04:51:58 -
[1005] - Quote
YES YESSSSS, Eliminate Hi-Sec incursions and move them ALL to low-sec and give incursion rats 2x damage & hitpoints with neuts that can hit out to 100km, LOL.
|
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 07:05:12 -
[1006] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:[quote=Otso Bakarti]
I know every single thing about incursions and how bad they truly are. (in terms of how much they destroy the real eve)
Im only here to expose them because Im tired of this "eve" of today and miss the old one, the one without incursions.
Pr0 tip, practice some self restraint and do something else.
" Im tired of this "eve" of today and miss the old one"
"eve" you mean your eve? Miss the old one? That's called nostalgia, it becomes us all. Incursions aren't destroying eve or anything else. You are addicted to isk/per/hr, that's your problem, not eve's. Perhaps they should nerf running C5/6 sites in dreads next, you know before you realise that incursions are where the peanuts are...Or maybe Trading! You know the thing that makes far more than most other activities in eve? No? But it's so little risk with such high payout? Nerf Trading.
CCP, people make TOO much money trading, trading needs nerfing! Those god damn traders soaking up the margins on all the goods! |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
211
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 07:48:47 -
[1007] - Quote
At 33mill isk a day as you say how many t2 can you afford to fit and lose in pvp? Or pirate ships? Or even t2 fit t1 cruisers. How does that help removing risk aversion everybody istalking about? You lose a ship you have to grind weeks to replace it.
Most of the "nurf it" crowd has played for years and hoarded billions if not trillions of isk, trained dozens of characters and now they're bored oh farming pve sites with their herd of alts. "It's too easy, got no risk element!" Of course it's easy when you multibox a site or mission with 3 or more dead space blinged domies or (insert whatever pirate bs pinata you want here).
What the Hek should a new player do to fit in your nostalgic "I miss the times when drake was op so I'm starting a new char and troll the forums with it" canned soup of bitter memories community, when it has to wait months for skills that allow him to fly a ship he finally can't afford to lose?
"Oh Eve is dyin', I haz a sadness... can I haz a shovel to bury it plz?"
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
|
Thoregon Aubaris
Very Drunken Eve Flying Instructors Brotherhood Of Silent Space
9
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 13:29:07 -
[1008] - Quote
WTB Incursions for Wh's. |
Kooshti
Bargain Booze
39
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 15:33:15 -
[1009] - Quote
Thoregon Aubaris wrote:WTB Incursions for Wh's.
arent they called capital escalations? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2128
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 16:15:01 -
[1010] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote: At 33mill isk a day as you say how many t2 can you afford to fit and lose in pvp? Or pirate ships? Or even t2 fit t1 cruisers. How does that help removing risk aversion everybody istalking about? You lose a ship you have to grind weeks to replace it.
Most of the "nurf it" crowd has played for years and hoarded billions if not trillions of isk, trained dozens of characters and now they're bored oh farming pve sites with their herd of alts. "It's too easy, got no risk element!" Of course it's easy when you multibox a site or mission with 3 or more dead space blinged domies or (insert whatever pirate bs pinata you want here).
What the Hek should a new player do to fit in your nostalgic "I miss the times when drake was op so I'm starting a new char and troll the forums with it" canned soup of bitter memories community, when it has to wait months for skills that allow him to fly a ship he finally can't afford to lose?
"Oh Eve is dyin', I haz a sadness... can I haz a shovel to bury it plz?"
Well if you didn't try to finance your gametime with a part of your gameplay, you could invest all your grinding income to PvP. Just give your CC number to CCP and they will remove from you the need to grind a PLEX each month. That's an extra of about 33 mill/day you can spend on "fun" ships. |
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
394
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 16:50:04 -
[1011] - Quote
Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
So quit grinding for PLEX. It's pretty simple. It's only you making it a "grinder".
I am a prime example of not grinding for plex, or grind play at all.
I am a veteran players and don't have tens of billions of isk with officer fit mauraders in every region.
Why? Cause I like to have fun and like to do other things. I cannot afford a plex a month because I log on to... play a game? Some days I don't make any isk cause I am flying about trying exploration sites, talking to people or even helping newbs. Not much isk in flying an oracle fit to be flashy over combat effective for the sole purpose of helping newbs with the epic arc.
But I enjoy it. I post in these threads simply because there are so many more parts of eve that can be more interactive and enjoyable. At this time they are solely used for farming however. It bothers me personally because the potential for it to add to the eve experience and increase player retention and goal is being lost. Result of more farms is just that the barriers of entries into many things are higher.
I did a big writeup in that other thread, link here.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5983157#post5983157 |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
232
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 03:33:32 -
[1012] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Bellatrix Invicta wrote:
So quit grinding for PLEX. It's pretty simple. It's only you making it a "grinder".
I am a prime example of not grinding for plex, or grind play at all. I am a veteran players and don't have tens of billions of isk with officer fit mauraders in every region. Why? Cause I like to have fun and like to do other things. I cannot afford a plex a month because I log on to... play a game? Some days I don't make any isk cause I am flying about trying exploration sites, talking to people or even helping newbs. Not much isk in flying an oracle fit to be flashy over combat effective for the sole purpose of helping newbs with the epic arc. But I enjoy it. I post in these threads simply because there are so many more parts of eve that can be more interactive and enjoyable. At this time they are solely used for farming however. It bothers me personally because the potential for it to add to the eve experience and increase player retention and goal is being lost. Result of more farms is just that the barriers of entries into many things are higher. I did a big writeup in that other thread, link here. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5983157#post5983157
I like your perspective.
When I see people talking about isk per hour it makes Eve seem like a job, this very thread is proof that lots of us define our Eve existence by how much can be earned in an hour and there is clear envy aimed at others who earn more IPH. This is not what I call fun, I call it a bitter rat race.
I prefer belt ratting to incursions and most other PVE, I know most of you will think I am crazy for believing this, I enjoy warping belt to belt and hoping I get lucky with a special spawn, I enjoy the risk, and I even enjoy getting my loot to hi sec so the jita boys can earn a small % while I settle for an immediate payment.
It's not right to say nerf incursions just because people are earning more than you, or because YOU think the balance is incorrect.
Addng to my previous posts about revamping incursions I really like the idea of well organised NPC PVP fleets, they could have RR, ecm, and the ability to hold a good FC at a stalemate. I know you can do this CCP I have done a couple of burner missions and I like their intelligence, try to build on this and design an NPC fleet that can respond to lots of different actions by player fleets. I could go on all day about NPC Rat intelligence.
I know what I'm proposing would be a programming nightmare, there would be so many lines of code involved in making an NPC rat consider what is happening to 10 other NPC rats and selecting a unified reaction. I understand that running the type of code I mention here would use more CPU and Memory because the rats need to be constantly aware of the whole fleets situation. I know someone has worked hard on the burner AI all I can say is please keep going and build upon it and have a look at applying it to incursions.
Any other programmers out there that could shine some light on this? is it even possible in games as yet?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
405
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 04:59:11 -
[1013] - Quote
Aaron wrote:
Any other programmers out there that could shine some light on this? is it even possible in games as yet?
I used Homeworld 2 as an example of adaptive programming. What is needed is an RTS approach. Most of them have tactics for positioning nowadays and changing dynamics depending on what they encounter. No idea how it works though.... If I was a programmer, I would probably start with encounters being monitored in a mission to see what receiving and dealing most damage and start changing fleet bias accordingly, or have maybe npc scanships that if they lock, they can get info. Use program to find out weakness by speed, or whatever? |
Asuka Solo
Instant Annihilation Cruis3rs Cr3w
2992
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 15:20:55 -
[1014] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Otso Bakarti wrote:Please, make others' enterprise less profitable, or at least make mine more so! It's only fair! Though, I don't do anything remotely like these other people, and never go where they are, the very thought that they're there making ISK just bugs me. So, CCP, take your million dollar machine and turn it toward my inclinations and personal preferences. You know the Great Gaming God is on my side! I dont what? I run incursions since 2011 when they came out mr. With 2 or 3 accounts, lately only 2 or 1 depends. I know every single thing about incursions and how bad they truly are. (in terms of how much they destroy the real eve) Im only here to expose them because Im tired of this "eve" of today and miss the old one, the one without incursions.
Then post with your main so we know who to wardec.
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
|
Lady Areola Fappington
2684
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 17:41:34 -
[1015] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better.
I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand.
I've always been of the opinion that if you're playing a game and not having fun, you are doing something dreadfully wrong.
I get enough work at work. I'm not going to come into Eve just to do more work. If relaxing and playing Eve the way I like nets me enough to buy a plex, then yay. If not, I work an extra 1-3 minutes at my job, in order to plunk down a sub fee.
7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?
No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided.
--Eve New Player Guide
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
595
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 22:24:09 -
[1016] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better.
I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand.
I've always been of the opinion that if you're playing a game and not having fun, you are doing something dreadfully wrong. I get enough work at work. I'm not going to come into Eve just to do more work. If relaxing and playing Eve the way I like nets me enough to buy a plex, then yay. If not, I work an extra 1-3 minutes at my job, in order to plunk down a sub fee.
"Look how much money I make IRL. "
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
595
|
Posted - 2015.08.23 22:32:43 -
[1017] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities. It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better. I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand.
Nonsense. The only activities that even approach 120M/hr require significant investment in ships and additional accounts. Even station trading requires a large principal to reach those numbers, and station trading is an activity many people neither excel at nor enjoy. Scamming isn't something many people go in for either. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
323
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 09:32:20 -
[1018] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities. It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better. I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand. Nonsense. The only activities that even approach 120M/hr require significant investment in ships and additional accounts. Even station trading requires a large principal to reach those numbers, and station trading is an activity many people neither excel at nor enjoy. Scamming isn't something many people go in for either. I can make well over 120mill/h, solo and near indefinitely in either HS or null. in fact if you have contacts you don't even have to ship the LP store stuff to the market, they will come pick it up where you run your missions. This isn't a theoretical isk/h either. This is something I measured by entering my starting isk & time and then entering my end isk and time and doing a very simple little isk/h calculation. No booster alts or even mission pulling alts, just little old me.
However I don't think that is in any way wrong. I currently enjoy doing this and once I no longer find any enjoyment in it I move on and do something else, maybe Null PvP again. It's as valid a gamestyle and if you disagree you are free to come make me not play that way as is the way of eve. Me making and having isk equates to content for at least someone, be it the Belt ratter in null, the exploration toon getting me dedspace mods, the low/nullsec mission runner getting me pirate ships or the renter farming T2 moongoo for modules I use and even the wormhole guy making me the T3 stuff I want. I can't pay for any of that without isk and I cant transport any of that without the risk of getting ganked.
There is a lot of butthurt in this thread about people not liking the way other people play and it is quite amusing to read. |
Salvos Rhoska
1266
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 10:29:58 -
[1019] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:
There is a lot of butthurt in this thread about people not liking the way other people play and it is quite amusing to read.
True, as its a long thread with all kinds of posts in it.
I think suggesting a review of HS incursions, in terms of risk/reward, is reasonable though, for a number of valid reasons.
Not to kill or hurt anyones playstyle, but to rationalise HS incursions compared to other activities (particularly in HS with its safer ruleset and considering the special mechanics incursions apply to a system).
------------
|
Josef Djugashvilis
2977
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 10:50:30 -
[1020] - Quote
Please insert fantasy hi-sec isk per hour here...
Anything less than 100m per hour in a Velator armed with civilian mining lasers does not count.
This is not a signature.
|
|
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
323
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 11:19:20 -
[1021] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:
There is a lot of butthurt in this thread about people not liking the way other people play and it is quite amusing to read.
True, as its a long thread with all kinds of posts in it. I think suggesting a review of HS incursions, in terms of risk/reward, is reasonable though, for a number of valid reasons. Not to kill or hurt anyones playstyle, but to rationalise HS incursions compared to other activities (particularly in HS with its safer ruleset and considering the special mechanics incursions apply to a system). Most people, when looking at HS incursions, only look at one side of the coin or one half of the equations or (insert one half analogy here). Can you get high isk/h? Yup. Is it safe? Relatively. Is it infinite? Ah, yes and no. It's infinate as long as the incursion is up, then thers a lot of moving and running sites and reduced income but that not the problem. THe problem is there are only so many sites and so many systems. An incursion can get SATURATED. Now once it is, you know what starts happening? Content. You have races in sites, you have drama, you have rage killing the mom, ganking opposing fleets ships, awoxing. End of the day that's what the game is about yes? |
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
426
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 11:30:44 -
[1022] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:, ganking opposing fleets ships, awoxing. End of the day that's what the game is about yes?
Those dont happen cuz of the Logi. Nice try.
Thats more than half what people are cryimg/complaining about here dude. The fact it is harder to awox 1 man FF illegal Incursion wardec imune corps And lol ganking. You need to alpha them which good luck doing that to a maurader or bling BS without bringing 15 gank ships yourself. Youd be better to just use those 15 tornados on 15 separate haulers and get more kills and more loot.
They need to be easier to kill all around if they make the most isk of all of eve while having the least risk. High isk=high risk=high chance of death. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
323
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 11:43:04 -
[1023] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:, ganking opposing fleets ships, awoxing. End of the day that's what the game is about yes? Those dont happen cuz of the Logi. Nice try. Thats more than half what people are cryimg/complaining about here dude. The fact it is harder to awox 1 man FF illegal Incursion wardec imune corps And lol ganking. You need to alpha them which good luck doing that to a maurader or bling BS without bringing 15 gank ships yourself. Youd be better to just use those 15 tornados on 15 separate haulers and get more kills and more loot. They need to be easier to kill all around if they make the most isk of all of eve while having the least risk. High isk=high risk=high chance of death. Ships get ganked plenty enough moving from one incursion to the next. Awoxing is a bit more difficult to pull off (bit of a longer term goal as you have to become a trusted FC) but probably a lot more satisfying knowing you caused a good 50 to 100bill or even more worth of ship and module losses. The FC after all decides who gets into the fleet so can decide how much bling to awox.
But again, all I see in your post is a whole lot of boohoo they're making isk, I don't want them making isk. Well... make them.
Also you can make more running lv4+burners than incursions and it's a bit harder to saturate those :P |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12175
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 12:33:49 -
[1024] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities. It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better. I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand. Nonsense. The only activities that even approach 120M/hr require significant investment in ships and additional accounts. Even station trading requires a large principal to reach those numbers, and station trading is an activity many people neither excel at nor enjoy. Scamming isn't something many people go in for either.
And of course this isn't true. It hasn't been true for a very very long time. And CCP keep making stuff that makes easy isk making using cheapish ships possible. Burner mission blitzing is a prime example. A tech2 incursion Scimitar trained to logi 4 doesn't take that long, doesn't cost that much and will get you in a blingy incursion fleet making more than 120 mil an hour once the fleet gets rolling
The above poster is an excellent example of what I always talk about. He can't figure out how to do it, so no one must be able to do it, and that leads to woefully incorrect assumptions about everything. That's the incredible thing about EVE, it's so diverse, people can not only be bad at PVP, in EVE you can totally suck at PVE too lol.
And even if he was right (he is not, you should see his missions and complexes posts), 120 mil is per hour means that you can spend one hour a day playing EVE doing pve with 1 ship and plex 4 accounts per month or plex 1 account and have the equivilant of 3 plexes worth of isk in your wallet to blow on other things. or spend 30 minutes per day PVEing, use have your isk for a plex and the other half for ships to explode 1 900 mil+ is enough for a good month of frig/cruiser and some battlecruiser whelping. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
91
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 12:44:36 -
[1025] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities. It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better. I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand. Nonsense. The only activities that even approach 120M/hr require significant investment in ships and additional accounts. Even station trading requires a large principal to reach those numbers, and station trading is an activity many people neither excel at nor enjoy. Scamming isn't something many people go in for either. And of course this isn't true. It hasn't been true for a very very long time. And CCP keep making stuff that makes easy isk making using cheapish ships possible. Burner mission blitzing is a prime example. A tech2 incursion Scimitar trained to logi 4 doesn't take that long, doesn't cost that much and will get you in a blingy incursion fleet making more than 120 mil an hour once the fleet gets rolling The above poster is an excellent example of what I always talk about. He can't figure out how to do it, so no one must be able to do it, and that leads to woefully incorrect assumptions about everything. That's the incredible thing about EVE, it's so diverse, people can not only be bad at PVP, in EVE you can totally suck at PVE too lol. And even if he was right (he is not, you should see his missions and complexes posts), 120 mil is per hour means that you can spend one hour a day playing EVE doing pve with 1 ship and plex 4 accounts per month or plex 1 account and have the equivilant of 3 plexes worth of isk in your wallet to blow on other things. or spend 30 minutes per day PVEing, use have your isk for a plex and the other half for ships to explode 1 900 mil+ is enough for a good month of frig/cruiser and some battlecruiser whelping.
CCP deserves credit for bringing in the burner missions, they are terrific for farm..err diversity in running lev 4's in hi-sec.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2129
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 15:35:17 -
[1026] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:, ganking opposing fleets ships, awoxing. End of the day that's what the game is about yes? Those dont happen cuz of the Logi. Nice try. Thats more than half what people are cryimg/complaining about here dude. The fact it is harder to awox 1 man FF illegal Incursion wardec imune corps And lol ganking. You need to alpha them which good luck doing that to a maurader or bling BS without bringing 15 gank ships yourself. Youd be better to just use those 15 tornados on 15 separate haulers and get more kills and more loot. They need to be easier to kill all around if they make the most isk of all of eve while having the least risk. High isk=high risk=high chance of death.
It's cool and all that people consider them hard to gank but that's kind of the fault of the content itself. The incursion runners have a minimum threshold of tank required or they just lose ships after ships. This mean the average incursion runner boat is probably much more tanky than any hauler, mission runner or miner boat. Who's fault is it that the ship has to handle the initial spawn of a TCRC with otunis neuting your cap hard enough to sometime even turn off a DCU? The ship are harder to gank because the runners are FORCED by the content itself to fit better than the average bear.
They would all run thinner tank to get a few % more performance for added isk/hours if they could but the barrier of entry is there.
Logi also has a role to play but then again, the content require them to be there. You can't run HQ sites without logi. It just does not work.
Forced halfway decent tank fitted + forced logi support makes for harder ship to gank.
The only thing you can do is reduce the income or reduce the required buffer on the ships by lowering sansha's total applicable DPS. Then their total income will be lower OR they will be easyer to gank by virtue of being bears optimising their ISK/hours with just as much tank as the content require. |
Estella Osoka
CrapTards
710
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 16:33:09 -
[1027] - Quote
1. Change Sansha incursion rats to Drifters.
2. Instead of a MOM site, a WH spawns that you have to invade to make the incursion leave. If you do not invade the WH and destroy the Drifter base within, you do not get the Concord LP payout. Why a WH? So you not only have to worry about NPC content, but player driven content as well.
3. Reinforce the nodes in the constellations where incursions are ran. Thereby making it feasible to gank an incursion fleet with Smartbombing battleships. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1635
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 16:36:13 -
[1028] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:1. Change Sansha incursion rats to Drifters.
2. Instead of a MOM site, a WH spawns that you have to invade to make the incursion leave. If you do not invade the WH and destroy the Drifter base within, you do not get the Concord LP payout. Why a WH? So you not only have to worry about NPC content, but player driven content as well.
These are good suggestions.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
|
AtramLolipop
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 17:41:06 -
[1029] - Quote
Don't agree with your statement one bit.
Content has disappeared because of cap changes, multiboxing and stagnation within the power blocks who have nothing to fight for or over.
Incursions represent a minute amount of ISK that is generated within the economy and if you look at hard evidence, actually human behavior trends, it tells you that CCP are doing the right thing for their client base.
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
417
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 17:59:19 -
[1030] - Quote
AtramLolipop wrote:Don't agree with your statement one bit.
Content has disappeared because of cap changes, multiboxing and stagnation within the power blocks who have nothing to fight for or over.
Incursions represent a minute amount of ISK that is generated within the economy and if you look at hard evidence, actually human behavior trends, it tells you that CCP are doing the right thing for their client base.
Here is the thing that is the core of the discussion. Is it the isk that is the problem or the means at which one gets it?
I approve of incursions, and the isk, but my complaint is with the latter. Incursions are very stagnant. If a person made similar (well, maybe a bit less but higher than L4 in highsec incursions) but it did require an on the ball FC where the sites no longer had any predictable nature to them, would that be a bad thing for the client base? How does discussion of incursions in current iteration affect potential new players vs if they brought in different mechanics? |
|
Estella Osoka
CrapTards
711
|
Posted - 2015.08.24 19:56:02 -
[1031] - Quote
I'm personally just tired of them being Sansha Incursions. Would like to see some change up to other pirate races, or just make them Drifters.
Random pirate incursion would be a nice change of pace. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
601
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 03:02:16 -
[1032] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But yea, color me surprised that you don't know a thing about the thing you decided to post about lol.
I decided to post in the context of many a thread asking for all sorts of income nerfing. The game is already a grind festival if you don't run a few clients simultaneously and have specialized alts for different sorts of activities. It's only a grind festival if you don't know how to play. Hell, the game olets you play it for free if you can earn 33 million isk per day, and you can do that in like 4 to 15 minutes, less if you know what you are doing. It's really no one's fault but the 'grinder' that they don't discover how to do things better. I suggest spending more time learning about things before posting and you'll understand. Nonsense. The only activities that even approach 120M/hr require significant investment in ships and additional accounts. Even station trading requires a large principal to reach those numbers, and station trading is an activity many people neither excel at nor enjoy. Scamming isn't something many people go in for either. And of course this isn't true. It hasn't been true for a very very long time. And CCP keep making stuff that makes easy isk making using cheapish ships possible. Burner mission blitzing is a prime example. A tech2 incursion Scimitar trained to logi 4 doesn't take that long, doesn't cost that much and will get you in a blingy incursion fleet making more than 120 mil an hour once the fleet gets rolling The above poster is an excellent example of what I always talk about. He can't figure out how to do it, so no one must be able to do it, and that leads to woefully incorrect assumptions about everything. That's the incredible thing about EVE, it's so diverse, people can not only be bad at PVP, in EVE you can totally suck at PVE too lol. And even if he was right (he is not, you should see his missions and complexes posts), 120 mil is per hour means that you can spend one hour a day playing EVE doing pve with 1 ship and plex 4 accounts per month or plex 1 account and have the equivilant of 3 plexes worth of isk in your wallet to blow on other things. or spend 30 minutes per day PVEing, use have your isk for a plex and the other half for ships to explode 1 900 mil+ is enough for a good month of frig/cruiser and some battlecruiser whelping.
Burners require a collection of blinged out faction frigs or the use of alts to run consistently without loss. I agree they are the most hideously broken form of highsec PvE, far worse than incursions.
I am in the only FW faction which can't farm missions with bombers so I forget that option exists. Hopefully it will be balanced soon. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
92
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 06:22:28 -
[1033] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:1. Change Sansha incursion rats to Drifters.
2. Instead of a MOM site, a WH spawns that you have to invade to make the incursion leave. If you do not invade the WH and destroy the Drifter base within, you do not get the Concord LP payout. Why a WH? So you not only have to worry about NPC content, but player driven content as well.
3. Reinforce the nodes in the constellations where incursions are ran. Thereby making it feasible to gank an incursion fleet with Smartbombing battleships.
These changes will be great. That way I can forget about incursions for good. |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
616
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 10:04:15 -
[1034] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:1. Change Sansha incursion rats to Drifters.
2. Instead of a MOM site, a WH spawns that you have to invade to make the incursion leave. If you do not invade the WH and destroy the Drifter base within, you do not get the Concord LP payout. Why a WH? So you not only have to worry about NPC content, but player driven content as well.
3. Reinforce the nodes in the constellations where incursions are ran. Thereby making it feasible to gank an incursion fleet with Smartbombing battleships. These changes will be great. That way I can forget about incursions for good.
Highsec incursions should never have happened in the first place. They were interesting story line world events that never should have proceeded past their introduction. A review of their spawn rates in highsec is years overdue - cut to 1 highsec incursion per month with lp awarded on a corp basis with a 48 hour warm up. You want easy isk? Enjoy your wardecs all 50 million of them.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
|
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
713
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 14:57:40 -
[1035] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:1. Change Sansha incursion rats to Drifters.
2. Instead of a MOM site, a WH spawns that you have to invade to make the incursion leave. If you do not invade the WH and destroy the Drifter base within, you do not get the Concord LP payout. Why a WH? So you not only have to worry about NPC content, but player driven content as well.
3. Reinforce the nodes in the constellations where incursions are ran. Thereby making it feasible to gank an incursion fleet with Smartbombing battleships. These changes will be great. That way I can forget about incursions for good.
Current Incursion meta is easy mode. Needs to be shaken up. Besides, Drifter incursion would require a mandatory looter for the Drifter loot.
Or CCP could just make it so Incursions are only lowsec and nullsec. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2133
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 15:12:11 -
[1036] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:1. Change Sansha incursion rats to Drifters.
2. Instead of a MOM site, a WH spawns that you have to invade to make the incursion leave. If you do not invade the WH and destroy the Drifter base within, you do not get the Concord LP payout. Why a WH? So you not only have to worry about NPC content, but player driven content as well.
3. Reinforce the nodes in the constellations where incursions are ran. Thereby making it feasible to gank an incursion fleet with Smartbombing battleships. These changes will be great. That way I can forget about incursions for good. Highsec incursions should never have happened in the first place. They were interesting story line world events that never should have proceeded past their introduction. A review of their spawn rates in highsec is years overdue - cut to 1 highsec incursion per month with lp awarded on a corp basis with a 48 hour warm up. You want easy isk? Enjoy your wardecs all 50 million of them.
Pretty sure CCP disagree with you seeing as they made them spawn faster in high-sec recently.
From the Hyperion dev blog by CCP FoxFour:
Reducing the re-spawn time of Incursions
Right now when an Incursion finishes there is between a 24 and 48 hour delay until another Incursion spawns in the same security space replacing the one that ended. For example, if all of the Incursions in high sec are completed within a short time span of each other, it means that for a period of time there will be no Incursion in high sec.
This change is aimed at helping make sure that Incursion runners will always have them available when they log in. You may have to move to get to it, but at least the option is there for you to go do it.
More specifically we are reducing the min and max time between an Incursion being completed and it re-spawning elsewhere from 24 and 48 hours respectively to 12 and 36 hours respectively.
If anything, it means they wanted people to be able to participate more in them so vOv... |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
327
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 15:43:00 -
[1037] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:[quote=Demerius Xenocratus] And of course this isn't true. It hasn't been true for a very very long time. And CCP keep making stuff that makes easy isk making using cheapish ships possible. Burner mission blitzing is a prime example. A tech2 incursion Scimitar trained to logi 4 doesn't take that long, doesn't cost that much and will get you in a blingy incursion fleet making more than 120 mil an hour once the fleet gets rolling The above poster is an excellent example of what I always talk about. He can't figure out how to do it, so no one must be able to do it, and that leads to woefully incorrect assumptions about everything. That's the incredible thing about EVE, it's so diverse, people can not only be bad at PVP, in EVE you can totally suck at PVE too lol. And even if he was right (he is not, you should see his missions and complexes posts), 120 mil is per hour means that you can spend one hour a day playing EVE doing pve with 1 ship and plex 4 accounts per month or plex 1 account and have the equivilant of 3 plexes worth of isk in your wallet to blow on other things. or spend 30 minutes per day PVEing, use have your isk for a plex and the other half for ships to explode 1 900 mil+ is enough for a good month of frig/cruiser and some battlecruiser whelping. Burners require a collection of blinged out faction frigs or the use of alts to run consistently without loss. I agree they are the most hideously broken form of highsec PvE, far worse than incursions. I am in the only FW faction which can't farm missions with bombers so I forget that option exists. Hopefully it will be balanced soon. Wait, since when is all T2 fit AFs and HACs 'blinged'
Don't use a boosting alt myself anymore either. |
AtramLolipop
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 15:47:03 -
[1038] - Quote
Ridiculous post.
High sec incursions represent an minute amount of ISK that is generated in the Eve economy.
The amount of people that run incursions run into 100's, not 1000's that run missions and rat in null sec.
Get over this already. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12201
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 16:25:35 -
[1039] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:1. Change Sansha incursion rats to Drifters.
2. Instead of a MOM site, a WH spawns that you have to invade to make the incursion leave. If you do not invade the WH and destroy the Drifter base within, you do not get the Concord LP payout. Why a WH? So you not only have to worry about NPC content, but player driven content as well.
3. Reinforce the nodes in the constellations where incursions are ran. Thereby making it feasible to gank an incursion fleet with Smartbombing battleships. These changes will be great. That way I can forget about incursions for good. Highsec incursions should never have happened in the first place. They were interesting story line world events that never should have proceeded past their introduction. A review of their spawn rates in highsec is years overdue - cut to 1 highsec incursion per month with lp awarded on a corp basis with a 48 hour warm up. You want easy isk? Enjoy your wardecs all 50 million of them. Pretty sure CCP disagree with you seeing as they made them spawn faster in high-sec recently.
Ah, so CCP is always right. Got it.
Are you not paying attention, CCP is made up of humans (that can make mistakes) It would be nice if more people would be willing to tell them the truth.
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12201
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 16:26:56 -
[1040] - Quote
AtramLolipop wrote:Ridiculous post.
High sec incursions represent an minute amount of ISK that is generated in the Eve economy.
The amount of people that run incursions run into 100's, not 1000's that run missions and rat in null sec.
Get over this already.
The highlighted part is true. It also means you are wrong.
|
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
432
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 17:00:15 -
[1041] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote: Highsec incursions should never have happened in the first place. They were interesting story line world events that never should have proceeded past their introduction. A review of their spawn rates in highsec is years overdue - cut to 1 highsec incursion per month with lp awarded on a corp basis with a 48 hour warm up. You want easy isk? Enjoy your wardecs all 50 million of them.
Why never in highsec?
They weren't easy isk for us at the start. But damn, it was fun pve at the time. That is why it is in highsec. Initially were damned fun! Us good fleets made of the main forces from the live events incursions, well we could just beat mission running on isk on a good day. Technically they still aren't easy... except for the on rails mechanics. Hook up the meta fleet train to iskville. Toot Toot!
|
Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
216
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 17:57:29 -
[1042] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=442459&find=unread
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2133
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 18:01:37 -
[1043] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:AtramLolipop wrote:Ridiculous post.
High sec incursions represent an minute amount of ISK that is generated in the Eve economy.
The amount of people that run incursions run into 100's, not 1000's that run missions and rat in null sec.
Get over this already. The highlighted part is true. It also means you are wrong.
Except you are also wrong because it generate nearly 0 ISK int he game just like mining and many other profession. The ISK to LP ratio paid is the right one to not generate it unless people completely forgo using their LP so it INDEED does not generate ISK in a big way compared to any form of bounty payout.
You are intelligent enough to know wealth generation in LP/items is not an ISK faucet.
The wealth generation rate might be high but as the guy you quoted said, it barely generate any ISK unless that player forgo his LP which would drasticly reduce his real wealth generation way below the ever mentioned possible 200+ mill/hours. |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
556
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 21:07:01 -
[1044] - Quote
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:Your grammar is a bigger problem than Incursions.
Has nothing of significance to add... decides to go for something irrelevant. Thanks for the contribution.
Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite
|
ashley Eoner
496
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 22:09:36 -
[1045] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Except you are also wrong because it generate nearly 0 ISK int he game just like mining and many other profession. The ISK to LP ratio paid is the right one to not generate it unless people completely forgo using their LP so it INDEED does not generate ISK in a big way compared to any form of bounty payout.
You are intelligent enough to know wealth generation in LP/items is not an ISK faucet.
The wealth generation rate might be high but as the guy you quoted said, it barely generate any ISK unless that player forgo his LP which would drasticly reduce his real wealth generation way below the ever mentioned possible 200+ mill/hours. What's hilarious to me is that people actually think incursions runners are consistently hitting +200m an hour.
TVP did once for one hour and they haven't shut up about it since. They did it through a combination of bling, contests and a very lucky TCRC spawn streak. Meaning other people were suffering a massive loss in isk per hour to make that possible.
TVP's coyote fleet which is one of a couple fleets that can consistently do +120m an hour doesn't even run that often due to lack of people to pull from.
The vast majority of incursion runners are only making about the same per hour as what I make running level 4 security missions (90-110m).
Quite a few public fleets make less isk per hour than what you can make blitzing 3s (80m an hour). Don't believe me? Go run with some random groups and take records of time invested and isk made. The VG groups in general seem to have performance issues these days. Join "Incursion Public" for links to public incursion groups.
As it stands right now it's incredibly easy to find empty assault systems. Vanguards systems are almost as desolate these days.
I have no proof but it looks like incursion running numbers outside of HQs took a nasty hit post jan 1st. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
327
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 22:25:09 -
[1046] - Quote
Interesting fact, blitzing thucker or SOE lv4 missions, while generating close to 140mill isk+ in WEALTH per hour generates almost NO actual isk. My wallet has been stying in the same 100 mill bracket for the last week while my wealth has increased by a couple billion because buying LP items takes all the isk I make from bounties, payouts and burners.
Nullsec, especially drone lands, inject pure isk (100mill/h +-) directly into people's wallets. This is then used to buy all the LP items the blitzers, incursion, FW runners, etc. put on the market. |
Salvos Rhoska
1269
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 22:46:48 -
[1047] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:
The vast majority of incursion runners are only making about the same per hour as what I make running level 4 security missions (90-110m).
Quite a few public fleets make less isk per hour than what you can make blitzing 3s (80m an hour). Don't believe me? Go run with some random groups and take records of time invested and isk made.
Disregarding the famous isk/hr claim myths, I do believe you.
And despite my having been vociferously against HS Incursions (primarily due to its farm nature) when I read this I was struck by somethung I hadnt considered before.
That if HS Incursion income was nerfed, then it leads to invalidating it as a HS activity, as compared to other far less involved and integrally solo activitivies.
So yes, it would require a commensurate HS l3 and l4 profit nerf too.
Im ok with that.
Therafter there is only HS combat sig drop rates and HSstation trading taxes to deal with. Works for me.
HS is too profitable, considering its low player intervention risk.
The irony and complication here, is that HS residents dont NEED these profits to sustain their safe activities. This also applies even moreso to residents of other sectors who exploit HS exactly for that reason (whom are a particular cancer), whereas they can and should be making more at home there, or then satisfy with HS (hopefully soon) lower profits, at lower risk.
See what I mean?
Nerfing HS profits doesnt really nerf HS players all that much, it instead nerfs the real cancer, which are NS players still operating in HS rather than in their domestic region. The less of them there are in HS, the marginally higher even nerfed HS profit and opportunity rates will improve for HS specific players. HS players will manage, as life is cheap and safe there. Just gotta play a little more to PLEX, or maybe train a little less accounts. If you want more profits, as the universal rule SHOULD and as always has stated, move out of HS. Instead currently we have non-HS players STILL farming HS in security, despite their other commitments elsewhere.
------------
|
ashley Eoner
496
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 22:54:32 -
[1048] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:
The vast majority of incursion runners are only making about the same per hour as what I make running level 4 security missions (90-110m).
Quite a few public fleets make less isk per hour than what you can make blitzing 3s (80m an hour). Don't believe me? Go run with some random groups and take records of time invested and isk made.
Disregarding the famous isk/hr claim myths, I do believe you. And despite my having been vociferously against HS Incursions (primarily due to its farm nature) when I read this I was struck by somethung I hadnt considered before. That if HS Incursion income was nerfed, then it leads to invalidating it as a HS activity, as compared to other far less involved and integrally solo activitivies. So yes, it would require a commensurate HS l3 and l4 profit nerf too. Im ok with that. Therafter there is only HS combat sig drop rates and HSstation trading taxes to deal with. Works for me. HS is too profitable, considering its low player intervention risk. The irony and complication here, is that HS residents dont NEED these profits to sustain their safe activities. This also applies even moreso to residents of other sectors who exploit HS exactly for that reason, whereas they can and should be making more at home there, or then satisfy with HS (hopefully soon) lower profits, at lower risk. See what I mean? It's funny you should say highsec is too profitable as I'm currently running almost fully AFK in null doing +60m an account.
Meanwhile in WHs some people I know are doing +1b an hour. One fellow in particular can do +2b an hour but he's running a bit of a fleet. Yeah occasionally he sees someone on dscan and has to go hunting but it's pretty rare.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1269
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 23:03:24 -
[1049] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:It's funny you should say highsec is too profitable as I'm currently running almost fully AFK in null doing +60m an account.
Meanwhile in WHs some people I know are doing +1b an hour. One fellow in particular can do +2b an hour but he's running a bit of a fleet. Yeah occasionally he sees someone on dscan and has to go hunting but it's pretty rare..
Whats the "funny" part, exactly?
I dont get what you mean.
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ashley Eoner
497
|
Posted - 2015.08.25 23:19:22 -
[1050] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:It's funny you should say highsec is too profitable as I'm currently running almost fully AFK in null doing +60m an account.
Meanwhile in WHs some people I know are doing +1b an hour. One fellow in particular can do +2b an hour but he's running a bit of a fleet. Yeah occasionally he sees someone on dscan and has to go hunting but it's pretty rare.. Whats the "funny" part, exactly? I dont get what you mean. Is this the famous self-ironic sarcsasm Ive been hearing about? Your earnings in NS while afk sound fine to me. Your WH friends speculative secondhand reports of income sound fine to me too, considering the circumstances youve explained. Whats funny here? There's no risk involved? I mined in highsec with my fleet and got wardecced within the first hour. Had a self proclaimed code agent with friends/alts attempt to gank me in the second hour (after the fail he went after the other miners). Oh and despite being unable to go AFK I made a miserable amount of isk per hour.
In null I just have to watch out for two people. Just have to walk back to the machine occasionally to set up in a new spot. Sure it's less isk per account per hour than level 4s but it only requires a fraction of the attention and uses much cheaper ships. |
|
Salvos Rhoska
1269
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 00:30:17 -
[1051] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote: Whats funny here?
There's no risk involved? I mined in highsec with my fleet and got wardecced within the first hour. Had a self proclaimed code agent with friends/alts attempt to gank me in the second hour (after the fail he went after the other miners). Oh and despite being unable to go AFK I made a miserable amount of isk per hour. In null I just have to watch out for two people. Just have to walk back to the machine occasionally to set up in a new spot. Sure it's less isk per account per hour than level 4s but it only requires a fraction of the attention and uses much cheaper ships.
wat
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Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
53
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 02:07:26 -
[1052] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.
Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.
Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.
Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.
I have 2 chars with an almost perfect skillset for incursions, but in all my EVE time i have spent only around 10h in incursions. Why? Because they are a boring grind. I know no one who does only incursions in EVE.
2Sonas1Cup wrote: Incursions are 5 years old, there is nothing new about them that someone hasn't thought of and tried in the past to successfully gank incursioners and come out in profit. NO, you won't. NO, there isn't a secret way. Or else there would be plenty of other people doing it already, just think about it, you're not Einstein.
Example most recent fail attempt, 40 machariels with smart bombs, not even 1 incursioners dead, gankers lost billions to concord. Incursioners laughed at you on comms.
"40 machariels with smart bombs, not even 1 incursioners dead, gankers lost billions to concord"
WHAT Are you serious?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1566
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 03:16:44 -
[1053] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:"40 machariels with smart bombs, not even 1 incursioners dead, gankers lost billions to concord"
WHAT Are you serious?
It's important to bear in mind that the failure was due to the lag induced by the gankers essentially creating a large number of crimewatch events. It's not that the trap wouldn't have worked were the server up to it. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
328
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 08:26:15 -
[1054] - Quote
Ganker tears? Man this thread delivers. |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
402
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 12:16:20 -
[1055] - Quote
tl;dr - This is a very stupid idea. Incursions are fine the way they are.
Now a real issue is the wildly disproportionate risk versus reward ratio for suicide ganks. There needs to be much much more risk. It's murder and easy after all. Oh wait, that's a different thread. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2135
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 13:04:12 -
[1056] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:tl;dr - This is a very stupid idea. Incursions are fine the way they are.
Now a real issue is the wildly disproportionate risk versus reward ratio for suicide ganks. There needs to be much much more risk. It's murder and easy after all. Oh wait, that's a different thread.
If you want to make them more gankable, you need to nerf the content so they can shitfit their wtfpwnblingmobile more. The current level of tank + logi support is required by the content itself. They counter gank by default. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
714
|
Posted - 2015.08.26 19:29:22 -
[1057] - Quote
This is all moot. Drifter Incursions are here. If left unchecked, the Drifter Incursion spreads to other systems. Don't do these incursions, and that means less and less systems will be available for an incursion to spawn in. Glorious! |
Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
53
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 14:14:54 -
[1058] - Quote
This could be the one thing that can save nullsec |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12962
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 14:45:24 -
[1059] - Quote
So you decided to necro 4 different incursion threads? Is someone afraid of their unbalanced cash cow getting slaughtered? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2398
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 14:49:02 -
[1060] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:So you decided to necro 4 different incursion threads? Is someone afraid of their unbalanced cash cow getting slaughtered?
I didn't check the other ones yet but this is the second where a nerf is called for in the necro. |
|
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1874
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 14:51:02 -
[1061] - Quote
+1 supported
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Austneal
Nero Fazione End of Life
110
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 16:46:35 -
[1062] - Quote
Have there always been this many "CCP Please Nerf" threads on the forums?
I seem to remember there being far fewer when I first started browsing... maybe not though |
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
84
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 17:39:29 -
[1063] - Quote
Austneal wrote:Have there always been this many "CCP Please Nerf" threads on the forums?
Usually once a week or so for something. What's happening is that CAM/CAM's-latest-alt is digging them all up for some reason.
Actually, I'd speculate that the reason is either... (a) trolling (b) attention seeking (c) desperate attempt to justify existence (d) all of the above
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces...do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
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Samwise Everquest
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps FETID
163
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 21:29:11 -
[1064] - Quote
Running an incursion takes a fleet and coordination. I think it should be a very profitable PvE option.
It is also the only PvE in this game I could tolerate for more than 20 minutes.
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps looking for work. Pras Phil.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
228
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 21:41:53 -
[1065] - Quote
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Yea but you understand what Im saying right?
It is really nonsensical how much highsec incursions pay. It kills eve.
CCP: "Youre not supposed to feel safe when you log in, youre supposed to feel a cold and harsh environment"
Well this is totally the opposite of what eve feels like right now if youre an incursioner.
Heres what I do as an incursioner in eve:
- log in - waitlist and grab a beer - join fleet make 250mil an hour with lp included (each account) - run for 2 or 3 hours and log out
Wheres the harsh and cold environment in this?
So you do it yourself and try to nerf it.
Does this mean you've made your isk from it, so you think it's time to nerf it?
If you think it's that bad don't do it.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15134
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 21:46:39 -
[1066] - Quote
Avvy wrote: If you think it's that bad don't do it.
Not doing it myself doesn't change the fact that it's the most unbalanced personal income in the game. Incursions break risk vs reward in a very literal way, and that's why they will be removed. Hopefully soon.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
228
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 21:56:05 -
[1067] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Avvy wrote: If you think it's that bad don't do it.
Not doing it myself doesn't change the fact that it's the most unbalanced personal income in the game. Incursions break risk vs reward in a very literal way, and that's why they will be removed. Hopefully soon.
Risk v's reward, to me is nonsense. Generally risk can change from day to day the reward will also change due to RNG.
Lets take the Goons as they're the biggest I've heard of in null.
The outskirts of their empire will likely have more risk than the centre of their empire yet a lot of the activities maybe the same. Does that mean you would like to see the centre of their empire make less isk because on a daily basis they have less risk?
Edit:
But then I think you are really talking about isk generated per hour. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1657
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 22:17:18 -
[1068] - Quote
Blitzing Burners is a highsec activity that pays more than Incursions per hour.
Just saying. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12965
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 22:19:54 -
[1069] - Quote
Avvy wrote:2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Yea but you understand what Im saying right?
It is really nonsensical how much highsec incursions pay. It kills eve.
CCP: "Youre not supposed to feel safe when you log in, youre supposed to feel a cold and harsh environment"
Well this is totally the opposite of what eve feels like right now if youre an incursioner.
Heres what I do as an incursioner in eve:
- log in - waitlist and grab a beer - join fleet make 250mil an hour with lp included (each account) - run for 2 or 3 hours and log out
Wheres the harsh and cold environment in this?
So you do it yourself and try to nerf it. Does this mean you've made your isk from it, so you think it's time to nerf it? If you think it's that bad don't do it.
That's the same as saying "if you think crack kills people, just don't smoke it yourself" lol.
I run incursions among other things (I ran high sec lvl 5s too even though that was a bug, if it's there, im gonna use it).. Unbalanced is unbalanced whether you participate or not. A few hundred characters generating the 3rd largest isk faucet in a game of hundreds of thousands of characters (where as it takes a whole lot to generate the 1st and second isk faucets) is broken no matter how you try to sugar coat it. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15135
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 22:20:40 -
[1070] - Quote
Avvy wrote: Risk v's reward, to me is nonsense.
Then you don't belong here.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
228
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 22:23:55 -
[1071] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Avvy wrote: Risk v's reward, to me is nonsense.
Then you don't belong here.
Just because I don't share your view. Me not sharing your view doesn't change anything. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1658
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 22:34:34 -
[1072] - Quote
Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:Austneal wrote:Have there always been this many "CCP Please Nerf" threads on the forums? Usually once a week or so for something. What's happening is that CAM/CAM's-latest-alt is digging them all up for some reason. Actually, I'd speculate that the reason is either... (a) trolling (b) attention seeking (c) desperate attempt to justify existence (d) all of the above
They are not just bumping" nerf threads" wanting to reduce PvE income like this one: - they are also bumping the "PLEX prices are to high" threads - they are planting multiple conspiracy rumours all over the place trying to get people to believe that EVE is going free to play very soon and PLEX will be worthless
Sounds to me someone cannot afford PLEX and is trying to artificially deflate the prices. It is a pleasant change from the obvious attempts to manipulate prices up (the most successful lately was the "Geckos are too expensive" thread which tripled Gecko prices for a short time before they settled down again) .
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
95
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 22:51:07 -
[1073] - Quote
I run incursions regularly on my main and I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. Humans are a bad mix of clever and lazy; give them an easy isk option like incursions and they WILL take advantage of it. The only reason ever to stop is that you're bored of making money, but at that point why try any of the other activities eve offers?
Lowering the payouts on incursions to less than a null / lowsec income would be a good start. Before you say it; No, null/low sec incursions do not pay better because time and efficiency are factors that weigh the balance heavily in favour of highsec. Nerfing incursion payouts can lead only to benefits for all.
A case for more AoE in EvE
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2716
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 22:52:06 -
[1074] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: That's the same as saying "if you think crack kills people, just don't smoke it yourself" lol.
I run incursions among other things (I ran high sec lvl 5s too even though that was a bug, if it's there, im gonna use it).. Unbalanced is unbalanced whether you participate or not. A few hundred characters generating the 3rd largest isk faucet in a game of hundreds of thousands of characters (where as it takes a whole lot to generate the 1st and second isk faucets) is broken no matter how you try to sugar coat it.
So please prove what numbers actually generate most of that NPC bounty faucet. The last economic blog figures included a miner who killed a single 1.0 belt rat as 'someone who did PvE' with equal weight to the Null sec 23/7 Anom Bot. (Not saying lots of Null people bot or anything, just a weighting comparison).
We have no idea how many play time hours went into that isk generation, nor do we have any idea what portion of people are generating the WH Commodities faucet, and how many hours they are putting into it. Especially what portion & how many hours are coming from the C6 escalation crowd.
Edit: Also low & Null incursions already pay out over 200% a highsec incursion per site. And this is why there has been someone dedicatedly running low sec incursions for the last few months ever since the fleet size for low & null sec incursions got buffed.
So, tldr version, learn real statistics and learn why your 'proof' shows nothing. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
23
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 22:56:01 -
[1075] - Quote
The one non-PvP activity you actually have to have a group for(not just multi-boxing 3 accounts) and you want to get rid of it? Should we just call the game multi-box online? If Incursions really make that much ISK, then go run them yourself. It's the one PvE activity that requires a fleet. What's wrong with that having a decent payout? Of course that should pay more than soloing Lvl 4s. It should pay more than most things in high sec, if not everything. |
Terminal Insanity
Pwn 'N Play SpaceMonkey's Alliance
820
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 23:16:19 -
[1076] - Quote
uh, end nullsec incursions too please?. nullsec people dont want that junk. it just gets in the way and nobody likes them.
"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
|
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1880
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 23:18:52 -
[1077] - Quote
Valacus wrote:The one non-PvP activity you actually have to have a group for(not just multi-boxing 3 accounts) and you want to get rid of it? Should we just call the game multi-box online? If Incursions really make that much ISK, then go run them yourself. It's the one PvE activity that requires a fleet. What's wrong with that having a decent payout? Of course that should pay more than soloing Lvl 4s. It should pay more than most things in high sec, if not everything.
shouldnt pay more than everything else in the game though should it? and it shouldnt be more worthwhile running them in highsec than anywhere else
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2716
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 23:26:02 -
[1078] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote: shouldnt pay more than everything else in the game though should it? and it shouldnt be more worthwhile running them in highsec than anywhere else
1. It doesn't. 2. It's not. |
Terminal Insanity
Pwn 'N Play SpaceMonkey's Alliance
820
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 23:28:53 -
[1079] - Quote
Valacus wrote:Should we just call the game multi-box online? probably.
Take the jumpfreighter for example, you need a minimum of two accounts, and at least 3 characters, to properly fly it.
"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
|
Valacus
Streets of Fire
23
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 23:38:41 -
[1080] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Valacus wrote:The one non-PvP activity you actually have to have a group for(not just multi-boxing 3 accounts) and you want to get rid of it? Should we just call the game multi-box online? If Incursions really make that much ISK, then go run them yourself. It's the one PvE activity that requires a fleet. What's wrong with that having a decent payout? Of course that should pay more than soloing Lvl 4s. It should pay more than most things in high sec, if not everything. shouldnt pay more than everything else in the game though should it? and it shouldnt be more worthwhile running them in highsec than anywhere else
So buff other forms of income then. I don't have an issue with nulsec paying more than it does. I welcome any change that reduces the amount of multi-boxing and multiple account running that happens in this game. There's no reason I should have to own and run 3 accounts just because I live in nulsec. Incursion running let's me cut down on how many accounts I use because I have the ISK to fund all my funsies all from one source. What's so wrong with that? Nulsec has a hard time doing the same because nulsec is poorly designed. Even if I had to grind level 4s to make ISK, I'd still take that over nulsec because I don't find the reward to be worth all the stress I have to go through just to run a few havens, let alone 10/10 DED sites. Nulsec doesn't pay enough to get me out of high sec when it comes to ISK generation. That means nulsec needs a buff, not incursions need to be completely removed. |
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1880
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 23:41:30 -
[1081] - Quote
why do you need 3 accounts to live in null?
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
95
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 23:47:06 -
[1082] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Lan Wang wrote: shouldnt pay more than everything else in the game though should it? and it shouldnt be more worthwhile running them in highsec than anywhere else
1. It doesn't. 2. It's not.
1. Excluding wormholes (which IMO are rightly placed with their risk and reward) yes incursions are the highest paid pve activity in eve. They should have their payouts lowered to say 60m/hr in highsec (numbers pulled from you-know-where) or buff everything else; I know which one I would go for if I had to implement one option.
2. It is. As I said in my last post efficiency is a factor; you would imagine the ranking goes like this, null incursions pay most, lowsec second, and highsec last. However because of the risk involved in HS combined with the efficiency that makes possible, the situation is actually the opposite with highsec incursions paying best.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Terminal Insanity
Pwn 'N Play SpaceMonkey's Alliance
820
|
Posted - 2015.11.19 23:48:36 -
[1083] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:why do you need 3 accounts to live in null?
nullsec pay is fine you just feel incursions are more worthwhile because the risk is far less which makes them more worthwhile.
highsec incursions pay far too much for the risk involved
you need a minimum of 2 accounts to play in nullsec. I mean, you CAN play in null with a single account, but you're going to ether annoy the **** out of your friends when you're begging for cynos and scouts all day, or you're going to die a lot.
"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
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Daerrol
Death By Design Did he say Jump
266
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Posted - 2015.11.20 00:02:29 -
[1084] - Quote
IDK I did the PFR thing farming in my machariel all day. I just used local intels, teamspeak and jump bridges to move around. I fit a cloak, MJD, and MWD. Got caught once but MJD > tackle.
Only lost a rattlesnake to some escalation that had too much DPS... Mostly I just PVP'd which for PFR meant ship spinning :( |
AtramLolipop
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 00:10:32 -
[1085] - Quote
There is nothing wrong with HS incursions nothing at all.
What you do not seem to understand is that they are a huge iSK SINK.
Yes they bring ISK into the game but they also take a huge amount of isk out of the game.
Is nonsense to speak of less risk in HS incursions, absolutely ******** statement. |
AtramLolipop
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 00:12:40 -
[1086] - Quote
Valacus wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Valacus wrote:The one non-PvP activity you actually have to have a group for(not just multi-boxing 3 accounts) and you want to get rid of it? Should we just call the game multi-box online? If Incursions really make that much ISK, then go run them yourself. It's the one PvE activity that requires a fleet. What's wrong with that having a decent payout? Of course that should pay more than soloing Lvl 4s. It should pay more than most things in high sec, if not everything. shouldnt pay more than everything else in the game though should it? and it shouldnt be more worthwhile running them in highsec than anywhere else So buff other forms of income then. I don't have an issue with nulsec paying more than it does. I welcome any change that reduces the amount of multi-boxing and multiple account running that happens in this game. There's no reason I should have to own and run 3 accounts just because I live in nulsec. Incursion running let's me cut down on how many accounts I use because I have the ISK to fund all my funsies all from one source. What's so wrong with that? Nulsec has a hard time doing the same because nulsec is poorly designed. Even if I had to grind level 4s to make ISK, I'd still take that over nulsec because I don't find the reward to be worth all the stress I have to go through just to run a few havens, let alone 10/10 DED sites. Nulsec doesn't pay enough to get me out of high sec when it comes to ISK generation. That means nulsec needs a buff, not incursions need to be completely removed.
Actually yes - they should pay more than other forms of PVE. There isn't a single site that can be solo-ed. Unlike most of null sec and missions hell even most lvl 5's can be completed solo.
You can play the game in null, thats your choice, it's ridiculous , "you can't play in null sec without several accounts" yes you can but if you do that's your choice. |
AtramLolipop
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 00:16:18 -
[1087] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:I run incursions regularly on my main and I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. Humans are a bad mix of clever and lazy; give them an easy isk option like incursions and they WILL take advantage of it. The only reason ever to stop is that you're bored of making money, but at that point why try any of the other activities eve offers?
Lowering the payouts on incursions to less than a null / lowsec income would be a good start. Before you say it; No, null/low sec incursions do not pay better because time and efficiency are factors that weigh the balance heavily in favour of highsec. Nerfing incursion payouts can lead only to benefits for all.
Don't be silly incursions are run by a small group of players, and i bet bottom dollar most of them are accounts of people who play in null sec mainly. changing HS incursions won't change a thing, people want a safe way to make isk to experience the game by other means. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
23
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 00:45:27 -
[1088] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:why do you need 3 accounts to live in null?
nullsec pay is fine you just feel incursions are more worthwhile because the risk is far less which makes them more worthwhile.
highsec incursions pay far too much for the risk involved
If anything I'd like to see more content like incursions with similar payout, also in high sec.
And huh? How do you not need 3 accounts? You need your own scout if you want to move anything valuable. Jump the wrong gate and boom, you never had a chance. You need cyno alts if you own capital ships. People aren't always going to be able to cyno you. It's either sit at home or do it yourself. Jump aids is a thing now, so unless you want to be stuck at home while everyone else has fun, you need an alt to make isk if you have to use jump bridges to get to the ratting systems. That way you're aids free when it comes time to PvP, especially if said PvP is black ops, titan bridge, jump bridge, or capital related. Then there's the shopping problem. You can't very well shop in Jita if you're in nul, jump clone timers are 24 hours, jump aids restricts your movement, so if you're going to get anything out of high sec it's going to be another character to do it, even if it's just purchasing items for an alliance or corp mate to JF it out later. |
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 01:03:38 -
[1089] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Valacus wrote:The one non-PvP activity you actually have to have a group for(not just multi-boxing 3 accounts) and you want to get rid of it? Should we just call the game multi-box online? If Incursions really make that much ISK, then go run them yourself. It's the one PvE activity that requires a fleet. What's wrong with that having a decent payout? Of course that should pay more than soloing Lvl 4s. It should pay more than most things in high sec, if not everything. shouldnt pay more than everything else in the game though should it? and it shouldnt be more worthwhile running them in highsec than anywhere else This has to be a troll. Level 4s in highsec make more an hour per character than incursion fleets. Pirate missions make more per hour. FW missions make more an hour than incursions. WHs make many times more an hour than incursions. Hell AFKtars in null make as much an hour as some incursion runners. PI done right can make far more isk per hour of effort than incursions. Station trading alts make more per hour than you could ever imagine getting in an incursion. Incursions in low and null makes far more an hour than in highsec. You're so wrong you can't even get that simple concept right.
I can keep going on but really what's the point?
Lan Wang wrote:why do you need 3 accounts to live in null?
nullsec pay is fine you just feel incursions are more worthwhile because the risk is far less which makes them more worthwhile.
highsec incursions pay far too much for the risk involved If you feel that way then bring the risk yourself. You can do that you know.
AtramLolipop wrote:Don't be silly incursions are run by a small group of players, and i bet bottom dollar most of them are accounts of people who play in null sec mainly. changing HS incursions won't change a thing, people want a safe way to make isk to experience the game by other means. My experience is that there are elements of null present in incursions. It's nice to be able to take a break from the hectic activity of null while still experiencing group content. |
StuRyan
Space Mutts
56
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 01:18:43 -
[1090] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Valacus wrote:The one non-PvP activity you actually have to have a group for(not just multi-boxing 3 accounts) and you want to get rid of it? Should we just call the game multi-box online? If Incursions really make that much ISK, then go run them yourself. It's the one PvE activity that requires a fleet. What's wrong with that having a decent payout? Of course that should pay more than soloing Lvl 4s. It should pay more than most things in high sec, if not everything. shouldnt pay more than everything else in the game though should it? and it shouldnt be more worthwhile running them in highsec than anywhere else This has to be a troll. Level 4s in highsec make more an hour per character than incursion fleets. Pirate missions make more per hour. FW missions make more an hour than incursions. WHs make many times more an hour than incursions. Hell AFKtars in null make as much an hour as some incursion runners. PI done right can make far more isk per hour of effort than incursions. Station trading alts make more per hour than you could ever imagine getting in an incursion. Incursions in low and null makes far more an hour than in highsec. You're so wrong you can't even get that simple concept right. I can keep going on but really what's the point? Lan Wang wrote:why do you need 3 accounts to live in null?
nullsec pay is fine you just feel incursions are more worthwhile because the risk is far less which makes them more worthwhile.
highsec incursions pay far too much for the risk involved If you feel that way then bring the risk yourself. You can do that you know.
All this bickering over incursions is embarrassing.
1. No they aren't taking content away from null sec - if anything they are indirectly adding content because people can actually afford to do things in null sec.
2. Not everyone can devote hours upon hours of playing the game hence why they play in HS and why HS incursions tend to be run by quite a regular bunch of people. Now because not everyone CAN run them due to the restriction imposed by the mechanics of he things it means, again, the influence of incursions on null sec stagnation is not related to HS. Null created it's own stagnation by blueing up everyones man and dog in the search for "safe space". You see, much of null sec is dead and the chance of someone randomly turning up and screwing up your game time far less than someone running around in HS.
3. Eve is a playing field, it's up to you how you make the playing field fun but to pigeon hole incursions as some sort of devil that is killing the game is stupid. The game is killing itself forcing people to invest time they don't have, from the Jump fatigue introduction, the multi-box mess that is as clear as mud, and the constant dull and predictable game play. Incursions are the only thing in the game that is providing something remotely interesting and even then you are still forced to invest a lot of time in the game before you feel the fruits. Not to mention is is the only thing in Eve where, yes you make isk, but at the same time it has the biggest isk sink. |
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 08:38:04 -
[1091] - Quote
AtramLolipop wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:I run incursions regularly on my main and I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. Humans are a bad mix of clever and lazy; give them an easy isk option like incursions and they WILL take advantage of it. The only reason ever to stop is that you're bored of making money, but at that point why try any of the other activities eve offers?
Lowering the payouts on incursions to less than a null / lowsec income would be a good start. Before you say it; No, null/low sec incursions do not pay better because time and efficiency are factors that weigh the balance heavily in favour of highsec. Nerfing incursion payouts can lead only to benefits for all. Don't be silly incursions are run by a small group of players, and i bet bottom dollar most of them are accounts of people who play in null sec mainly. changing HS incursions won't change a thing, people want a safe way to make isk to experience the game by other means.
Maybe you can expand on what you mean by "experience the game"? Highsec incursions remove the financial benefit of living in low or null, and therefore it removes a lot of players from these areas of space leading to fewer people in space to shoot at. Not only that but the ridiculous isk/hr achievable means that to be competitive with other players in PvP you'll probably be flying a t2 or t3. Lowering highsec incursion payouts would lead to lower value ships being used more regularly and more target in dangerous space looking for riches. Why give people such a safe way to make isk and be surprised that they use it?
Let's just use a personal example of how incursions remove content. I recently skilled for marauders to run C4 wormhole sites; the price of a marauder and my fit was around 1.7b ISK. Now my options to make that ISK are plex, missions, WH sites, incursions, null anoms, or industry (there may be others). Out of those the best paid are incursions at ~120m/hr or group running (haven't bought the marauder at this point) C4 sites making less isk for more risk. So the best risk /reward option is to go back to highsec and run incursions until I can afford the marauder, meaning one less pilot out in WH space. It isn't just me who thinks this way and each one pilot in HS rather than elsewhere makes the game worse for everyone.
Edit: it is worth keeping in mind the vested interest of people who currently make loads out of incursions and don't want change. They like having nice toys with little time invested, as all of us do. However is having a blingy ship worth having a dead nullsec?
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1883
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 09:32:09 -
[1092] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Valacus wrote:The one non-PvP activity you actually have to have a group for(not just multi-boxing 3 accounts) and you want to get rid of it? Should we just call the game multi-box online? If Incursions really make that much ISK, then go run them yourself. It's the one PvE activity that requires a fleet. What's wrong with that having a decent payout? Of course that should pay more than soloing Lvl 4s. It should pay more than most things in high sec, if not everything. shouldnt pay more than everything else in the game though should it? and it shouldnt be more worthwhile running them in highsec than anywhere else This has to be a troll. Level 4s in highsec make more an hour per character than incursion fleets. Pirate missions make more per hour. FW missions make more an hour than incursions. WHs make many times more an hour than incursions. Hell AFKtars in null make as much an hour as some incursion runners. PI done right can make far more isk per hour of effort than incursions. Station trading alts make more per hour than you could ever imagine getting in an incursion. Incursions in low and null makes far more an hour than in highsec. You're so wrong you can't even get that last simple concept right. I can keep going on but really what's the point? Lan Wang wrote:why do you need 3 accounts to live in null?
nullsec pay is fine you just feel incursions are more worthwhile because the risk is far less which makes them more worthwhile.
highsec incursions pay far too much for the risk involved If you feel that way then bring the risk yourself. You can do that you know. AtramLolipop wrote:Don't be silly incursions are run by a small group of players, and i bet bottom dollar most of them are accounts of people who play in null sec mainly. changing HS incursions won't change a thing, people want a safe way to make isk to experience the game by other means. My experience is that there are elements of null present in incursions. It's nice to be able to take a break from the hectic activity of null while still experiencing group content.
lol no they do not!
explain how you calculate isk/hr in station trading, oh station trading has pvp too so theres the risk, you can lose a ton of isk in station trading, not to mention freighter ganks
Null anoms 120mil an hour max, in nullsec with a carrier. risk, you aint making more isk/hr in an ishtar than an incursion runner makes so stop being silly
pirate missions, unknown isk/hr in the middle of nullsec. risk, please let me know the isk/hr numbers you have got for running pirate lvl 4's.
FW missions, yes your right they do make more, in lowsec with risk, no doubt they will be getting nerfed at some point too
Null and low incursions, whats the point when the difference is hardly debatable compared to highsec.
Its already been explained you cant just "gank" an incursion fleet so the risk isnt really there, please explain how to gank an incursion fleet
Incursions are run by 1% of the playerbase yet make half the amount of isk the whole of nullsec makes, dont tell me highsec incursions dont pay out too much.
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
61
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 10:31:21 -
[1093] - Quote
Quote: Maybe you can expand on what you mean by "experience the game"? Highsec incursions remove the financial benefit of living in low or null, and therefore it removes a lot of players from these areas of space leading to fewer people in space to shoot at.
No it doesn't, incursions are on a "limited space" basis, in proportion only a very small number of people fly incursions. Did you not see the latest economy report? Clearly shows that null sec and low sec ISK faucets are still the biggest in the game. Like I said it's not HS that is killing null sec, your killing null sec from within.
Quote:Not only that but the ridiculous isk/hr achievable means that to be competitive with other players in PvP you'll probably be flying a t2 or t3. Lowering highsec incursion payouts would lead to lower value ships being used more regularly and more target in dangerous space looking for riches. Why give people such a safe way to make isk and be surprised that they use it?
That ridiculous amount of isk/hr is achieved only when you have a large enough fleet and complete cooperation and coordination with everyone in that fleet. If one person doesn't pull their weight your ridiculous isk.per is seriously reduced, and BTW have you ever grinded through a TPPH wall? That's enough pain to also kill your isk/hour. Again, I will say, incursions are the only thing in the game that requires everyone to embody what an Eve player wants from a game.
Quote:Let's just use a personal example of how incursions remove content. I recently skilled for marauders to run C4 wormhole sites; the price of a marauder and my fit was around 1.7b ISK. Now my options to make that ISK are plex, missions, WH sites, incursions, null anoms, or industry (there may be others). Out of those the best paid are incursions at ~120m/hr or group running (haven't bought the marauder at this point) C4 sites making less isk for more risk. So the best risk /reward option is to go back to highsec and run incursions until I can afford the marauder, meaning one less pilot out in WH space. It isn't just me who thinks this way and each one pilot in HS rather than elsewhere makes the game worse for everyone.
No I actually think this is more to do with your playing style.
Quote:Edit: it is worth keeping in mind the vested interest of people who currently make loads out of incursions and don't want change. They like having nice toys with little time invested, as all of us do. However is having a blingy ship worth having a dead nullsec?
NULL SEC ISN'T BEING KILLED BY INCURSIONS HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU THIS? IT'S BEING KILLED BY YOUR LACK OF WILLINGNESS TO CREATE CONTENT ON THE BASIS THAT YOU SIGN IN EVERY DAY IN SAFE SPACE DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF BLUES AND SIZE OF ALLIANCE.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
228
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 10:40:29 -
[1094] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Quote:Edit: it is worth keeping in mind the vested interest of people who currently make loads out of incursions and don't want change. They like having nice toys with little time invested, as all of us do. However is having a blingy ship worth having a dead nullsec? NULL SEC ISN'T BEING KILLED BY INCURSIONS HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU THIS? IT'S BEING KILLED BY YOUR LACK OF WILLINGNESS TO CREATE CONTENT ON THE BASIS THAT YOU SIGN IN EVERY DAY IN SAFE SPACE DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF BLUES AND SIZE OF ALLIANCE.
What you say here kind of reminds me of Warhammer Online may it R.I.P.
Some people like to be on the winning side (partially because more game resources become available to them) so they switch side and the sides become even more out of balance until neither side is really enjoying the game.
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
97
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 10:44:55 -
[1095] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Quote: Maybe you can expand on what you mean by "experience the game"? Highsec incursions remove the financial benefit of living in low or null, and therefore it removes a lot of players from these areas of space leading to fewer people in space to shoot at.
No it doesn't, incursions are on a "limited space" basis, in proportion only a very small number of people fly incursions. Did you not see the latest economy report? Clearly shows that null sec and low sec ISK faucets are still the biggest in the game. Like I said it's not HS that is killing null sec, your killing null sec from within. Quote:Not only that but the ridiculous isk/hr achievable means that to be competitive with other players in PvP you'll probably be flying a t2 or t3. Lowering highsec incursion payouts would lead to lower value ships being used more regularly and more target in dangerous space looking for riches. Why give people such a safe way to make isk and be surprised that they use it?
That ridiculous amount of isk/hr is achieved only when you have a large enough fleet and complete cooperation and coordination with everyone in that fleet. If one person doesn't pull their weight your ridiculous isk.per is seriously reduced, and BTW have you ever grinded through a TPPH wall? That's enough pain to also kill your isk/hour. Again, I will say, incursions are the only thing in the game that requires everyone to embody what an Eve player wants from a game. Quote:Let's just use a personal example of how incursions remove content. I recently skilled for marauders to run C4 wormhole sites; the price of a marauder and my fit was around 1.7b ISK. Now my options to make that ISK are plex, missions, WH sites, incursions, null anoms, or industry (there may be others). Out of those the best paid are incursions at ~120m/hr or group running (haven't bought the marauder at this point) C4 sites making less isk for more risk. So the best risk /reward option is to go back to highsec and run incursions until I can afford the marauder, meaning one less pilot out in WH space. It isn't just me who thinks this way and each one pilot in HS rather than elsewhere makes the game worse for everyone. No I actually think this is more to do with your playing style. Quote:Edit: it is worth keeping in mind the vested interest of people who currently make loads out of incursions and don't want change. They like having nice toys with little time invested, as all of us do. However is having a blingy ship worth having a dead nullsec? NULL SEC ISN'T BEING KILLED BY INCURSIONS HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU THIS? IT'S BEING KILLED BY YOUR LACK OF WILLINGNESS TO CREATE CONTENT ON THE BASIS THAT YOU SIGN IN EVERY DAY IN SAFE SPACE DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF BLUES AND SIZE OF ALLIANCE.
Oh I'm killing nullsec, wow I didn't realise I had that much power; you sound quite upset perhaps you should try relax.
If you read the dev blog it says:
"You can see some interesting and unexpected things like the fact that only 1.5% of players run Incursions and 13.8% of players engage in PVP on any given day. The former is especially interesting considering the fact that incursion payouts were the 3rd largest ISK faucet in September, at 8.3T ISK, which you'll see this later in this blog, and on top of this is the added value of Concord LP payouts for clearing incursions."
Key words being on any given day. It says nothing about the total amount of people who run incursions, but based on them being the 3rd largest isk faucet I'd say there's a lot more than 1% of players running them over the course of a month. Remember you can make a plex in one day if you tried hard so no need to run them every day. You can say that I'm risk averse and to an extent I would agree with you, but it's human nature. Why would I risk anything if I don't need to and there's no benefit for taking the risk? My example still stands as (anecdotal) evidence that incursions provide incentive to go solo in highsec.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2721
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 10:52:06 -
[1096] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote: Oh I'm killing nullsec, wow I didn't realise I had that much power; you sound quite upset perhaps you should try relax.
If you read the dev blog it says:
"You can see some interesting and unexpected things like the fact that only 1.5% of players run Incursions and 13.8% of players engage in PVP on any given day. The former is especially interesting considering the fact that incursion payouts were the 3rd largest ISK faucet in September, at 8.3T ISK, which you'll see this later in this blog, and on top of this is the added value of Concord LP payouts for clearing incursions."
Key words being on any given day. It says nothing about the total amount of people who run incursions, but based on them being the 3rd largest isk faucet I'd say there's a lot more than 1% of players running them over the course of a month. Remember you can make a plex in one day if you tried hard so no need to run them every day. You can say that I'm risk averse and to an extent I would agree with you, but it's human nature. Why would I risk anything if I don't need to and there's no benefit for taking the risk? My example still stands as (anecdotal) evidence that incursions provide incentive to go solo in highsec.
Except as I posted earlier, it's inconclusive statistics. Since we don't see how many hours are actually being spent on incursions vs other dedicated types of PvE. Since they lumped literally every other kind of PvE together including a miner who killed a 1.0 rat which are so weak they die when you sneeze at them with a civilian gun. So without a proper look at income by hours of effort and a far more detailed breakdown of types of PvE and levels of income, all people are doing is raging and misusing statistics. Which is well..... very common on EVE forums to misuse statistics of course. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1883
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 10:52:19 -
[1097] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Quote: Maybe you can expand on what you mean by "experience the game"? Highsec incursions remove the financial benefit of living in low or null, and therefore it removes a lot of players from these areas of space leading to fewer people in space to shoot at.
No it doesn't, incursions are on a "limited space" basis, in proportion only a very small number of people fly incursions. Did you not see the latest economy report? Clearly shows that null sec and low sec ISK faucets are still the biggest in the game. Like I said it's not HS that is killing null sec, your killing null sec from within. Quote:Not only that but the ridiculous isk/hr achievable means that to be competitive with other players in PvP you'll probably be flying a t2 or t3. Lowering highsec incursion payouts would lead to lower value ships being used more regularly and more target in dangerous space looking for riches. Why give people such a safe way to make isk and be surprised that they use it?
That ridiculous amount of isk/hr is achieved only when you have a large enough fleet and complete cooperation and coordination with everyone in that fleet. If one person doesn't pull their weight your ridiculous isk.per is seriously reduced, and BTW have you ever grinded through a TPPH wall? That's enough pain to also kill your isk/hour. Again, I will say, incursions are the only thing in the game that requires everyone to embody what an Eve player wants from a game. Quote:Let's just use a personal example of how incursions remove content. I recently skilled for marauders to run C4 wormhole sites; the price of a marauder and my fit was around 1.7b ISK. Now my options to make that ISK are plex, missions, WH sites, incursions, null anoms, or industry (there may be others). Out of those the best paid are incursions at ~120m/hr or group running (haven't bought the marauder at this point) C4 sites making less isk for more risk. So the best risk /reward option is to go back to highsec and run incursions until I can afford the marauder, meaning one less pilot out in WH space. It isn't just me who thinks this way and each one pilot in HS rather than elsewhere makes the game worse for everyone. No I actually think this is more to do with your playing style. And once again, you are not considering the ISK Sink of incursions. Quote:Edit: it is worth keeping in mind the vested interest of people who currently make loads out of incursions and don't want change. They like having nice toys with little time invested, as all of us do. However is having a blingy ship worth having a dead nullsec? NULL SEC ISN'T BEING KILLED BY INCURSIONS HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU THIS? IT'S BEING KILLED BY YOUR LACK OF WILLINGNESS TO CREATE CONTENT ON THE BASIS THAT YOU SIGN IN EVERY DAY IN SAFE SPACE DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF BLUES AND SIZE OF ALLIANCE.
Here you just assume everyone lives in sov space, take a look at it from an npc nullsec point of view and tell me if making isk in npc space is more worthwhile than highsec incursions
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
61
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Posted - 2015.11.20 10:57:47 -
[1098] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:
Here you just assume everyone lives in sov space, take a look at it from an npc nullsec point of view and tell me if making isk in npc space is more worthwhile than highsec incursions
Yes, it's the same story:
Firstly, it's your choice to live in NPC null sec. There are regions that you can make a lot of isk in, some regions have better true sec than sov space not to mention the vast amount of unused moons. Secondly, you're trading off, It's not like you own the space so why should you get anywhere near the same level of ISK faucets? Thirdly, you could live in NPC null in a 1 man corp and still get by. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15159
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 11:11:23 -
[1099] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Except as I posted earlier, it's inconclusive statistics.
Incomplete, but hardly inconclusive.
The mere proportions alone show that incursions are likely going to be on the chopping block. 1.5% of the population making that much raw isk, to say nothing of the LP? It's astonishing that it's lasted as long as it has.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1883
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Posted - 2015.11.20 11:28:37 -
[1100] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:
Here you just assume everyone lives in sov space, take a look at it from an npc nullsec point of view and tell me if making isk in npc space is more worthwhile than highsec incursions
Yes, it's the same story: Firstly, it's your choice to live in NPC null sec. There are regions that you can make a lot of isk in, some regions have better true sec than sov space not to mention the vast amount of unused moons. Secondly, you're trading off, It's not like you own the space so why should you get anywhere near the same level of ISK faucets? Thirdly, you could live in NPC null in a 1 man corp and still get by.
hmmm you dont own highsec so why should you have faucets higher than sov?
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
228
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Posted - 2015.11.20 11:31:36 -
[1101] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:
Here you just assume everyone lives in sov space, take a look at it from an npc nullsec point of view and tell me if making isk in npc space is more worthwhile than highsec incursions
Yes, it's the same story: Firstly, it's your choice to live in NPC null sec. There are regions that you can make a lot of isk in, some regions have better true sec than sov space not to mention the vast amount of unused moons. Secondly, you're trading off, It's not like you own the space so why should you get anywhere near the same level of ISK faucets? Thirdly, you could live in NPC null in a 1 man corp and still get by. hmmm you dont own highsec so why should you have faucets higher than sov?
Are there no incursions in sov space?
If not maybe they need a few to shake them up a bit.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12966
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Posted - 2015.11.20 12:08:06 -
[1102] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: That's the same as saying "if you think crack kills people, just don't smoke it yourself" lol.
I run incursions among other things (I ran high sec lvl 5s too even though that was a bug, if it's there, im gonna use it).. Unbalanced is unbalanced whether you participate or not. A few hundred characters generating the 3rd largest isk faucet in a game of hundreds of thousands of characters (where as it takes a whole lot to generate the 1st and second isk faucets) is broken no matter how you try to sugar coat it.
So please prove what numbers actually generate most of that NPC bounty faucet. The last economic blog figures included a miner who killed a single 1.0 belt rat as 'someone who did PvE' with equal weight to the Null sec 23/7 Anom Bot. (Not saying lots of Null people bot or anything, just a weighting comparison). We have no idea how many play time hours went into that isk generation, nor do we have any idea what portion of people are generating the WH Commodities faucet, and how many hours they are putting into it. Especially what portion & how many hours are coming from the C6 escalation crowd. Edit: Also low & Null incursions already pay out over 200% a highsec incursion per site. And this is why there has been someone dedicatedly running low sec incursions for the last few months ever since the fleet size for low & null sec incursions got buffed. So, tldr version, learn real statistics and learn why your 'proof' shows nothing.
You talk a lot for someone who doesn't find it necessary to go out into the game and fine out for themselves.
I mean it's crazy, every time the topic has come up you've been in denial, yet that somehow doesn't compel you to find out for yourself. You know that means that you are interested in something other than the truth, right?
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12966
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Posted - 2015.11.20 12:14:57 -
[1103] - Quote
The replies to this topic after the necro demonstrate two of my favorite things about people.
The 1st is that when Malcanis showed my that Upton Sinclair quote, it was gospel truth. It goes "GÇ£It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.GÇ¥.
The 2nd is that the backfire effect is real (lol at the guy saying "any given day", he probably also wants to argue about what the definition of "is" is ).
Best thing about it though, is that it doesn't matter, I have faith that CCP is eventually going to take a good look at 'combat' based pve soon and iron out at least some of the more outrageous imbalances. |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
97
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Posted - 2015.11.20 12:24:04 -
[1104] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:The replies to this topic after the necro demonstrate two of my favorite things about people. The 1st is that when Malcanis showed my that Upton Sinclair quote, it was gospel truth. It goes "GÇ£It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.GÇ¥. The 2nd is that the backfire effect is real (lol at the guy saying "any given day", he probably also wants to argue about what the definition of "is" is ). Best thing about it though, is that it doesn't matter, I have faith that CCP is eventually going to take a good look at 'combat' based pve soon and iron out at least some of the more outrageous imbalances.
What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16993
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Posted - 2015.11.20 12:57:58 -
[1105] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:
What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.
Does it matter who the 1.5% is?
Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16993
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Posted - 2015.11.20 13:03:21 -
[1106] - Quote
Avvy wrote:
Are there no incursions in sov space?
If not maybe they need a few to shake them up a bit.
Yes there are incursions in sov null, they come around in our space once every 1-3 months.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:03:59 -
[1107] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:
What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.
Does it matter who the 1.5% is? Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here.
And these players are affecting your Eve how??
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La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
445
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Posted - 2015.11.20 13:04:06 -
[1108] - Quote
Incursions might indeed be removed by CCP. But only to be replaced by other PvE Stuff.
CCP and CCP Seagull are not stupid. All Numbers indicate, that far more players play PvE than PvP.
Even the smarter PvP groups know that and create additional incentives, so that PvElers who where convinced to join 0Sec gangs, also join fleet operations.
It is a wise move to add more events to amuse occasional players. Occasional players are hard workers with some money, but with no time. (of course there still be lots of whining and tears of those "hardcore PvPlers")
Since PvP is the core of EvE, no one has to whine about, that CCP will ignore those PvP player. CCP will try to serve both kinds of players.
you can take this "risk vs reward" arguments and put them somewhere, where the sun doesn't shine.
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
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La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
445
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Posted - 2015.11.20 13:07:32 -
[1109] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:
What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.
Does it matter who the 1.5% is? Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here. And these players are affecting your Eve how??
Don't know.
Maybe it makes him envious?
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16995
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Posted - 2015.11.20 13:09:45 -
[1110] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:
And these players are affecting your Eve how??
What's the point of expending all of that effort and isk on taking and holding null sov if highsec income like incursions dwarfs the income you can make in null?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12967
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:18:23 -
[1111] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:
And these players are affecting your Eve how??
Like this.
History lesson. CCP changed their (then just recently added) upgrade system to change tsome things in null. Here were there goals:
Quote:Expected consequences
Some alliances will immediately start wanting to look for better space In the longer run, there'll be more conflicts going on, with more localized goals Newer alliances will have an easier time getting a foothold in nullsec Coalitions will be marginally less stable Alliances will have to choose more carefully what space they develop, where their staging systems are, and so on (low truesec systems generally tend to be in strategically inconvenient places)
Did any of that happen? NO. What did happen? longer high sec incursion wait lists, and eventually, lots of renting out systems. The combat pve imbalance (centered on high sec incursions but also high sec lvl 4 mission blitzing and faction warfare missions) alters outcomes in the game, and thwarts CCP's attempts at modifying the game for more positive (fun) results.
The rich 1.5% don't want to hear it. It's why every time from now on that I go to a CCp hosted event, i'm going to occupy the ears of the nearest DEV so that this imbalance is tackled lol. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
583
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:19:24 -
[1112] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:
What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.
Does it matter who the 1.5% is? Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here. batlec1 is correct, this time
What a 1.5% tells me, considering that I know for a fact fleets are running incursions 24/7, is that there is a very real cap on the number of people who can run incursions. That means that yes, while the income from incursions is insane on a per player basis, it does not have even remotely the player capacity that Lv4 missions (LP regulated) or Nullsec ratting (Sov/Blue regulated) has.
In fact I would suggest that if the game had a larger population incursions would in fact not be a problem at all. For one there would be a LOT more competition in incursion sites and would decrease the isk per player. The total faucet form incursions wouldn't change a lot but the number of people running them would increase, and theoretically the faucet from missions/null would increase by a lot more in comparison.
Unfortunately that's not the Eve we're playing right now.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
583
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:22:39 -
[1113] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:The rich 1.5% don't want to hear it. It's why every time from now on that I go to a CCp hosted event, i'm going to occupy the ears of the nearest DEV so that this imbalance is tackled lol. Occupy Wall Street CCP Dev?
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12967
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:28:50 -
[1114] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:
What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.
Does it matter who the 1.5% is? Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here. batlec1 is correct, this time What a 1.5% tells me, considering that I know for a fact fleets are running incursions 24/7, is that there is a very real cap on the number of people who can run incursions. That means that yes, while the income from incursions is insane on a per player basis, it does not have even remotely the player capacity that Lv4 missions (LP regulated) or Nullsec ratting (Sov/Blue regulated) has. In fact I would suggest that if the game had a larger population incursions would in fact not be a problem at all. For one there would be a LOT more competition in incursion sites and would decrease the isk per player. The total faucet form incursions wouldn't change a lot but the number of people running them would increase, and theoretically the faucet from missions/null would increase by a lot more in comparison. Unfortunately that's not the Eve we're playing right now.
None of that addresses the problem. It has nothing to do with the overall economy. It has to do with individual inccentives.
Last week I decided to try something I hadn't before. I have 2 Machariels in null, one for anomalies and one for esclations. I decided to dual box both in anomalies.
You know the result of that? About 150 million isk per hour total. 2 pirate battleships. Null sec. 150 million isk per hour (75 per toon/ship), while risking that. Watching local like a hawk, being in a pve defense fleet, and having intel channel open.
In high sec I run ONE MACHARIEL in an incursion and make the same isk. The same 150 mil per hour (isk plus CONCORD LP) without even having to glance at local. FC did the commanding, Anchor did the driving. I shot NPCs and watched John Wick.
Then add in my SOE mission running FOF missile RNI and I get closer to 200 mil per hour total. With less effort and risk than what i have to do in null.
How in the blazes can anyone with any sense not see that's broken? I shouldn't have been able to do that in the most protected space in the game, it toally crushes the risk/reward scheme EVE is supposed to have, and the destortions it creates contributes to all manner of bad things, from devalued null to maybe even higher than nessacary PLEX prices (that 8 trillion isk per month from incursions has to go somewhere). |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
583
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:31:59 -
[1115] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:
What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.
Does it matter who the 1.5% is? Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here. batlec1 is correct, this time What a 1.5% tells me, considering that I know for a fact fleets are running incursions 24/7, is that there is a very real cap on the number of people who can run incursions. That means that yes, while the income from incursions is insane on a per player basis, it does not have even remotely the player capacity that Lv4 missions (LP regulated) or Nullsec ratting (Sov/Blue regulated) has. In fact I would suggest that if the game had a larger population incursions would in fact not be a problem at all. For one there would be a LOT more competition in incursion sites and would decrease the isk per player. The total faucet form incursions wouldn't change a lot but the number of people running them would increase, and theoretically the faucet from missions/null would increase by a lot more in comparison. Unfortunately that's not the Eve we're playing right now. None of that addresses the problem. It has nothing to do with the overall economy. It has to do with individual inccentives. Last week I decided to try something I hadn't before. I have 2 Machariels in null, one for anomalies and one for esclations. I decided to dual box both in anomalies. You know the result of that? About 150 million isk per hour total. 2 pirate battleships. Null sec. 150 million isk per hour (75 per toon/ship), while risking that. Watching local like a hawk, being in a pve defense fleet, and having intel channel open. In high sec I run ONE MACHARIEL in an incursion and make the same isk. The same 150 mil per hour (isk plus CONCORD LP) without even having to glance at local. FC did the commanding, Anchor did the driving. I shot NPCs and watched John Wick. Than add in my SOE mission running FOF missile RNI and I get closer to 200-220 mil per hour total. With less effort and risk than what i have to do in null. How in the blazes can anyone with any sense not see that's broken? I shouldn't have been able to do that in the most protected space in the game, it toally crushes the risk/reward scheme EVE is supposed to have, and the destortions it creates contributes to all manner of bad things, from devalued null to maybe even higher than nessacary PLEX prices (that 8 trillion isk per month from incursions has to go somewhere). My point was if you double the number of people running incursion, would you still get the same isk/h? Would you double the size of the isk faucet?
No. But again that's not the eve we're playing now. Incursions are sound but designed for a bigger pop.
Maybe they should just limit incusions to one in HS at any one time? what do you think of that suggestion?
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12967
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:33:38 -
[1116] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:
What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.
Does it matter who the 1.5% is? Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here. batlec1 is correct, this time What a 1.5% tells me, considering that I know for a fact fleets are running incursions 24/7, is that there is a very real cap on the number of people who can run incursions. That means that yes, while the income from incursions is insane on a per player basis, it does not have even remotely the player capacity that Lv4 missions (LP regulated) or Nullsec ratting (Sov/Blue regulated) has. In fact I would suggest that if the game had a larger population incursions would in fact not be a problem at all. For one there would be a LOT more competition in incursion sites and would decrease the isk per player. The total faucet form incursions wouldn't change a lot but the number of people running them would increase, and theoretically the faucet from missions/null would increase by a lot more in comparison. Unfortunately that's not the Eve we're playing right now. None of that addresses the problem. It has nothing to do with the overall economy. It has to do with individual inccentives. Last week I decided to try something I hadn't before. I have 2 Machariels in null, one for anomalies and one for esclations. I decided to dual box both in anomalies. You know the result of that? About 150 million isk per hour total. 2 pirate battleships. Null sec. 150 million isk per hour (75 per toon/ship), while risking that. Watching local like a hawk, being in a pve defense fleet, and having intel channel open. In high sec I run ONE MACHARIEL in an incursion and make the same isk. The same 150 mil per hour (isk plus CONCORD LP) without even having to glance at local. FC did the commanding, Anchor did the driving. I shot NPCs and watched John Wick. Than add in my SOE mission running FOF missile RNI and I get closer to 200-220 mil per hour total. With less effort and risk than what i have to do in null. How in the blazes can anyone with any sense not see that's broken? I shouldn't have been able to do that in the most protected space in the game, it toally crushes the risk/reward scheme EVE is supposed to have, and the destortions it creates contributes to all manner of bad things, from devalued null to maybe even higher than nessacary PLEX prices (that 8 trillion isk per month from incursions has to go somewhere). My point was if you double the number of people running incursion, would you still get the same isk/h? Would you double the size of the isk faucet? No.
A useless point. We are talking about something that's been going on for 6 years, not hypothetical "if more people did something" stuff. Talking about things that aren't happening is just a way to dodge acknowledging what IS happening.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12969
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Posted - 2015.11.20 13:38:16 -
[1117] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:
What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.
Does it matter who the 1.5% is? Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here. And these players are affecting your Eve how?? Don't know. Maybe it makes him envious?
Envy has nothing to do with anything (though I know Baltec can speak for himself).
Nothing stops us from doing high sec incursions, and many of us (who 'live' in null) have high sec incursion alts. What, do you think we 'envy" our own wallets.? Because that's where a big chunk of that 8 trillion isk per month goes, right to null.
Go to ANY high sec incursion community like TVP and ask how many play in null. You will get a LOT of proof.
Demonstrating something is broken (so broken it entices us to take part in it, because why not, isk is isk) even though we benefit from it is not envy, it's honesty. High sec people and especially high sec incursion abusers tend to not have honesty in large supply. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
583
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Posted - 2015.11.20 13:38:22 -
[1118] - Quote
See above edit pls.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16995
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Posted - 2015.11.20 13:41:45 -
[1119] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:See above edit pls.
Removing content is not something I like to see happen. Toning down the isk you can earn from them is a better option in my book.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
583
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:46:48 -
[1120] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:See above edit pls. Removing content is not something I like to see happen. Toning down the isk you can earn from them is a better option in my book. I'm not advocating removing incursions completely, just reducing the number of sites (justified by introducing Drifter incursions). Yes people can still make 'easier' isk in incursions but there would (theoretically) be increased competition. With competition comes drama, with drama comes content and the silliness of MOM sniping.
Good times to be had by all. If even that doesn't work then sure tone down income untill everyone moves on to Lv4 missions. Then tone that down till everyone moves on to... wait nothing left in HS, ah well STO has plenty of content.
I think having players self regulate (competition for sites for example) is better than CCP regulating, isn't that more in the spirit with Eve?
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12969
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:50:07 -
[1121] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: My point was if you double the number of people running incursion, would you still get the same isk/h? Would you double the size of the isk faucet?
No. But again that's not the eve we're playing now. Incursions are sound but designed for a bigger pop.
Maybe they should just limit incursions to one in HS at any one time? what do you think of that suggestion?
The idea that competition will fix an imbalance liek this doesn't work. Incursions in high sec aren't broken because there is not enough contesting going on, they are broken because they are in high sec and the automated CONCORD response offers value in ways that other forms of top tier isk making don't get.
In other words, Incursions replicated the issue that made the High Sec lvl 5 bug so awfully unbalanced. lvl 5s are find spewing out mountains of wealth in low sec, but when you can do it in high sec (like I did, with dual rattlesnakes), it's screws up everything. in high sec lvl 5s case, it was the navy corp LP store values (like what FW missions have done more recently).
The same results occurred, lots of people who lived in null have "high sec lvl 5 alts) with high standings that could decline the requite number of missions to get the ones that popped in those 0.5 systems. High sec lvl 5s devalued non-high sec space less than incursion though, because high sec lvl 5s at least had that standings requirement. Incursions require nothing but you having a ship and getting into a fleet.
There is no way to balance high sec incursions without either taking away rewards OR leaving the rewards and adding risk (ie shutting off CONCORD response in active incursion systems. Competition just means the isk goes into a different wallet,meaning someone would just revive ISN (the old super blinged incursion group that loved to contest everyone) and make the problem worse, not better.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16995
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:51:01 -
[1122] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: I think having players self regulate (competition for sites for example) is better than CCP regulating, isn't that more in the spirit with Eve?
Big no on that one. We have forced CCP to make changes several times because players simply cannot be trusted to not abuse a game imbalance.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12969
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:53:34 -
[1123] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: I think having players self regulate (competition for sites for example) is better than CCP regulating, isn't that more in the spirit with Eve?
Big no on that one. We have forced CCP to make changes several times because players simply cannot be trusted to not abuse a game imbalance.
I know I can't lol. I still have a FW alt, and incursion alt and if I could still do high sec lvl 5s I'd have one for that too
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
583
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:57:21 -
[1124] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: I think having players self regulate (competition for sites for example) is better than CCP regulating, isn't that more in the spirit with Eve?
Big no on that one. We have forced CCP to make changes several times because players simply cannot be trusted to not abuse a game imbalance. Self regulate is the wrong term I guess, that suggests people agreeing not to abuse a mechanic. The idea is scarcity of resources forcing competition and conflict is what I was going for.
Isn't that what Null USED to be based around and what null wars used to be fought over? I ask because this was before my time. If it's not that then why was there conflict back in the day?
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
98
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 13:57:28 -
[1125] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: I think having players self regulate (competition for sites for example) is better than CCP regulating, isn't that more in the spirit with Eve?
Big no on that one. We have forced CCP to make changes several times because players simply cannot be trusted to not abuse a game imbalance.
The players can't really be blamed for running incursions, they get mad isk for no risk, who would't want that? CCP themselves will have to tone down the payouts to lower the incentive. No CONCORD in incursion systems would be another option but I feel that would annoy more people than a simple isk nerf.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15160
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:04:30 -
[1126] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: And these players are affecting your Eve how??
Inflation, namely. They also devalue the income of everyone not running incursions, especially new players, since the bar for competitive income is set so high by incursions.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1886
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:06:07 -
[1127] - Quote
basically people in highsec need to start losing ships because goons are killing the price of bpc's
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12978
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:10:54 -
[1128] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: And these players are affecting your Eve how??
Inflation, namely. They also devalue the income of everyone not running incursions, especially new players, since the bar for competitive income is set so high by incursions.
It also has ironic consequences. Like I said, a lot of that incursion isk goes to null. People get all upset about moon goo (a null sec wealth faucet), but you can cpature moons, you can do very little about high sec incursions (another null sec wealth fountain).
I Live in Wicked Creek. 2 weeks ago some Gorgon Empire guys tried to camp out our ratting systems. I laughed, logged off the ratting mach toon, and logged in the high sec incursion toon, and made MORE isk than i would have in null.
That's why this imbalance (and FW missions) is so horrible, camping a null sec ratting system should be cause for WAR, not log out/log back in in high sec. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
28
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:20:25 -
[1129] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: And these players are affecting your Eve how??
Inflation, namely. They also devalue the income of everyone not running incursions, especially new players, since the bar for competitive income is set so high by incursions. It also has ironic consequences. Like I said, a lot of that incursion isk goes to null. People get all upset about moon goo (a null sec wealth faucet), but you can cpature moons, you can do very little about high sec incursions (another null sec wealth fountain). I Live in Wicked Creek. 2 weeks ago some Gorgon Empire guys tried to camp out our ratting systems. I laughed, logged off the ratting mach toon, and logged in the high sec incursion toon, and made MORE isk than i would have in null. That's why this imbalance (and FW missions) is so horrible, camping a null sec ratting system should be cause for WAR, not log out/log back in in high sec.
So what? I can make more ISK carrier ratting than I do running Incursions easily, but it's boring as all hell. I can actually talk to people and interact with them if I run incursions. Carrier ratting only pays well when done solo. Same for virtually every type of ratting that takes place in the game. That's why incursions are not only good, but necessary. It's the only form of group PvE there is, and the only reason it works is because it's worth your time. Level 4 mission runners make just as much ISK, but again, you're playing the game by yourself.
And lol "camping null sec ratting systems should be cause for WAR". No, because you can camp in a cloaked ship that no one has a chance of scanning down. Null sec camping isn't a cause for war because null sec is still broken. People avoid it for a reason. You're trying to force people to rat in null sec because you want more easy kills, when there are still plenty of fights in null sec because people have enough ISK to buy toys to fight in. That's a good thing. And even in spite of all that, there are still at least 20 people ratting in the designated systems my alliance uses at any given time. I just choose not to because again, boring. You're just inflating problems that are harmless because you want null sec to be what you want it to be, when in reality even if they did affect your changes, nothing would change at all, except there'd be one less enjoyable activity to do in game. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12979
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:29:48 -
[1130] - Quote
Valacus wrote:
So what? I can make more ISK carrier ratting than I do running Incursions easily, but it's boring as all hell. I can actually talk to people and interact with them if I run incursions. Carrier ratting only pays well when done solo. Same for virtually every type of ratting that takes place in the game. That's why incursions are not only good, but necessary. It's the only form of group PvE there is, and the only reason it works is because it's worth your time. Level 4 mission runners make just as much ISK, but again, you're playing the game by yourself.
Your self interest is not a reason to not fix something that is broken.
Also lol at Carrier Ratting. You just proved my point, you need a CAPITAL SHIP in SOV space (ie space you and a LOT of your friends have to either rent or capture) to match what you can make with a SUB-CAPITAL in high sec protected by CONCORD and an entire wing of logistics ships.
Nothing unbalanced about that at all... /sarcasm
Quote: And lol "camping null sec ratting systems should be cause for WAR". No, because you can camp in a cloaked ship that no one has a chance of scanning down. Null sec camping isn't a cause for war because null sec is still broken. People avoid it for a reason. You're trying to force people to rat in null sec because you want more easy kills, when there are still plenty of fights in null sec because people have enough ISK to buy toys to fight in. That's a good thing. And even in spite of all that, there are still at least 20 people ratting in the designated systems my alliance uses at any given time. I just choose not to because again, boring. You're just inflating problems that are harmless because you want null sec to be what you want it to be, when in reality even if they did affect your changes, nothing would change at all, except there'd be one less enjoyable activity to do in game.
Lol, the "it's good for null sec" argument.
No, it's not, It not only bad for null sec (for reason I explained), it's bad for high sec too.
High sec incursions being too good attracts null sec players. That means usually less skilled high sec player wait on wait lists to incursion while already rich null players isk it up in high sec. So rather than having high sec players funneled from unfun missions to group pve, you got them sitting on their thumbs doing nothing, because null sec guys who should be in null ratting (and thus providing content for other null players) are making isk in safety.
High sec incursions should only be really attractive to high sec players, they should not draw in everyone else and actually displace high sec players.
You are too short sighted to see that the imbalance is screwing you as much as it is everyone else. |
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1887
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:36:20 -
[1131] - Quote
can someone show me how i can make 200mil an hour carrier ratting in null please
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Valacus
Streets of Fire
28
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:38:28 -
[1132] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Valacus wrote:
So what? I can make more ISK carrier ratting than I do running Incursions easily, but it's boring as all hell. I can actually talk to people and interact with them if I run incursions. Carrier ratting only pays well when done solo. Same for virtually every type of ratting that takes place in the game. That's why incursions are not only good, but necessary. It's the only form of group PvE there is, and the only reason it works is because it's worth your time. Level 4 mission runners make just as much ISK, but again, you're playing the game by yourself.
Your self interest is not a reason to not fix something that is broken. Also lol at Carrier Ratting. You just proved my point, you need a CAPITAL SHIP in SOV space (ie space you and a LOT of your friends have to either rent or capture) to match what you can make with a SUB-CAPITAL in high sec protected by CONCORD and an entire wing of logistics ships. Nothing unbalanced about that at all... /sarcasm Quote: And lol "camping null sec ratting systems should be cause for WAR". No, because you can camp in a cloaked ship that no one has a chance of scanning down. Null sec camping isn't a cause for war because null sec is still broken. People avoid it for a reason. You're trying to force people to rat in null sec because you want more easy kills, when there are still plenty of fights in null sec because people have enough ISK to buy toys to fight in. That's a good thing. And even in spite of all that, there are still at least 20 people ratting in the designated systems my alliance uses at any given time. I just choose not to because again, boring. You're just inflating problems that are harmless because you want null sec to be what you want it to be, when in reality even if they did affect your changes, nothing would change at all, except there'd be one less enjoyable activity to do in game.
Lol, the "it's good for null sec" argument. No, it's not, It not only bad for null sec (for reason I explained), it's bad for high sec too. High sec incursions being too good attracts null sec players. That means usually less skilled high sec player wait on wait lists to incursion while already rich null players isk it up in high sec. So rather than having high sec players funneled from unfun missions to group pve, you got them sitting on their thumbs doing nothing, because null sec guys who should be in null ratting (and thus providing content for other null players) are making isk in safety. High sec incursions should only be really attractive to high sec players, they should not draw in everyone else and actually displace high sec players. You are too short sighted to see that the imbalance is screwing you as much as it is everyone else.
No, because incursion runners are still the minority and they are just plain unrunnable without a minimum number of people in fleet. Well, the fleet spends more time missing people than it does with a wait list, and the wait list is fairly short so plenty of new people have the opportunity to get into incursion fleets. Just because you personally choose to run with the l33tist crowd because of the ISK/hour doesn't mean that's the only crowd in the game. There are other opportunities for people to get into incursions and other incursion fleets willing to sacrifice ISK/hour in order to get others into the fray. Just because you aren't willing to do so doesn't mean everyone is as cynical as you are.
And I never said Incursions were good for null sec, but they certainly aren't bad for it. Running Incursions cuts down on time spent doing things that aren't PvP, things that most people would rather not be doing. That means more time for fighting and funsies.
"Because null sec guys should be null sec ratting"
That's your personal opinion. It's neither true nor meaningful. Those who want to null sec rat already do, and those who don't won't no matter what you do, so step down off the soap box. You can't force people to be your easy pray. The only thing you want is remove an activity from the game that others enjoy so you can attempt(and fail) to make null sec what you want it to be. Well, that's a **** poor reason to remove something. |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
100
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:46:31 -
[1133] - Quote
Valacus wrote:So what? I can make more ISK carrier ratting than I do running Incursions easily, but it's boring as all hell. I can actually talk to people and interact with them if I run incursions. Carrier ratting only pays well when done solo. Same for virtually every type of ratting that takes place in the game. That's why incursions are not only good, but necessary. It's the only form of group PvE there is, and the only reason it works is because it's worth your time. Level 4 mission runners make just as much ISK, but again, you're playing the game by yourself.
And lol "camping null sec ratting systems should be cause for WAR". No, because you can camp in a cloaked ship that no one has a chance of scanning down. Null sec camping isn't a cause for war because null sec is still broken. People avoid it for a reason. You're trying to force people to rat in null sec because you want more easy kills, when there are still plenty of fights in null sec because people have enough ISK to buy toys to fight in. That's a good thing. And even in spite of all that, there are still at least 20 people ratting in the designated systems my alliance uses at any given time. I just choose not to because again, boring. You're just inflating problems that are harmless because you want null sec to be what you want it to be, when in reality even if they did affect your changes, nothing would change at all, except there'd be one less enjoyable activity to do in game.
Let's try this from a different angle; it's clear you like highsec incursions as they are, and the reason why should be obvious both to you and to anyone else with a brain. You make good isk/hr out of them and you can use that ISK to enjoy the game, totally understandable and that's why so many null guys also have incursion alts. Also incursions offer the chance for drop-in drop-out group content that is accessible to (almost) anyone who can fly a battleship.
You say that incursions are the only group content available when this is just not true. Wormholes offer group content through sites and escalations; low and null don't offer much in the way of group PvE content as the most efficient way to do most sites is to solo but I'm sure many null players do group up for sites or DED complexes or whatever just for safety/ socialising's sake. I suspect that your biggest problem here isn't the lack of group content (nerfing incursion income doesnt nerf the content) but actually the loss of income. If incursions were pumping out less isk into the economy however then more activities would become competitive for isk-making and possibly prices of ships might even come down somewhat. It could also have the effect of getting more people flying cheaper T1 ships lowering the isk investment to PvP. In the end this would mean that you'll be flying fewer faction or pirate ships but not necessarily that you will be flying less period or that you will be farming more for the same equipment.
Valacus wrote: "Because null sec guys should be null sec ratting"
That's your personal opinion.
Wrong, CCP wants people to live in their space.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
241
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 14:57:53 -
[1134] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:See above edit pls. Removing content is not something I like to see happen. Toning down the isk you can earn from them is a better option in my book.
I don't run incursions atm, but if a certain big mouth keeps running her choppers off about making 200+ mill an hour blitzing hi-sec lev 4 missions then it may be only a matter of time before CCP decides to nerf Hi-Sec lev 4 missions. In case this happens I'd like to know that there is another casual (gameplay wise) alternative to making isk without playing with nullbears.
Rather than asking for Hi-Sec incursions income nerf, wouldn't it better to request CCP to add Drifter null sec incursions that allows Caps & Supers and that pays out much more than hi-sec incursions?
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12980
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 15:01:12 -
[1135] - Quote
Valacus wrote:
No, because incursion runners are still the minority and they are just plain unrunnable without a minimum number of people in fleet.
This is a lie.
Quote: And I never said Incursions were good for null sec, but they certainly aren't bad for it. Running Incursions cuts down on time spent doing things that aren't PvP, things that most people would rather not be doing. That means more time for fighting and funsies.
That time should be spent in null. If you want null level isk and 'funsies' , you should have to risk something. There is less risk in high sec.
Quote: "Because null sec guys should be null sec ratting"
That's your personal opinion. It's neither true nor meaningful. Those who want to null sec rat already do, and those who don't won't no matter what you do, so step down off the soap box. You can't force people to be your easy pray. The only thing you want is remove an activity from the game that others enjoy so you can attempt(and fail) to make null sec what you want it to be. Well, that's a **** poor reason to remove something.
Your ignorance of the issue isn't important. I've spent years doing PVE, and combat PVe is broken. You don't see it because you don't want to.
It's not about forcing anyone into null, it's about FREEING null people from high sec. It's about restoring a proper risk/reward balance. Slowly but surely, CCP is seeing the light here, which makes your opposition moot.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12980
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 15:06:14 -
[1136] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:See above edit pls. Removing content is not something I like to see happen. Toning down the isk you can earn from them is a better option in my book. I don't run incursions atm, but if a certain big mouth keeps running her choppers off about making 200+ mill an hour blitzing hi-sec lev 4 missions then it may be only a matter of time before CCP decides to nerf Hi-Sec lev 4 missions. In case this happens I'd like to know that there is another casual (gameplay wise) alternative to making isk without playing with nullbears.
lol, you just said "If Anize Oramare doesn't t stop telling the truth about high sec burner mission blitzing, this unbalanced thing that should not exist but that II like might get nerfed".
Self interest is a hell of a drug. If you want null level isk, you shold have to play with (against) 'nullbears'.
Quote: Rather than asking for Hi-Sec incursions income nerf, wouldn't it better to request CCP to add Drifter null sec incursions that allows Caps & Supers and that pays out much more than hi-sec incursions?
Null sec is not high sec. You can't fly bling ships safely out there, and incursions in someone else's space means a fight, not isk.
Dodging the issue doesn't work. The issue is high sec incursions and a few other high sec pve issues. Two things need to happen: High sec high end pve income needs a nerf, and null sec income needs to not be afkable in ishtars anymore.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1889
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 15:11:20 -
[1137] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:See above edit pls. Removing content is not something I like to see happen. Toning down the isk you can earn from them is a better option in my book. I don't run incursions atm, but if a certain big mouth keeps running her choppers off about making 200+ mill an hour blitzing hi-sec lev 4 missions then it may be only a matter of time before CCP decides to nerf Hi-Sec lev 4 missions. In case this happens I'd like to know that there is another casual (gameplay wise) alternative to making isk without playing with nullbears. Rather than asking for Hi-Sec incursions income nerf, wouldn't it better to request CCP to add Drifter null sec incursions that allows Caps & Supers and that pays out much more than hi-sec incursions?
because dropping supers anywhere without another 10 supers and subcap support is just stupid
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
583
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 15:18:23 -
[1138] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:See above edit pls. Removing content is not something I like to see happen. Toning down the isk you can earn from them is a better option in my book. I don't run incursions atm, but if a certain big mouth keeps running her choppers off about making 200+ mill an hour blitzing hi-sec lev 4 missions then it may be only a matter of time before CCP decides to nerf Hi-Sec lev 4 missions. In case this happens I'd like to know that there is another casual (gameplay wise) alternative to making isk without playing with nullbears. Rather than asking for Hi-Sec incursions income nerf, wouldn't it better to request CCP to add Drifter null sec incursions that allows Caps & Supers and that pays out much more than hi-sec incursions? If little old me makes a big enough impact for CCP to nerf Lv4s then I can quit eve a happy, happy person.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
|
StuRyan
Space Mutts
61
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:01:46 -
[1139] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:
What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.
Does it matter who the 1.5% is? Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here. No it doesn't matter who the 1.5% are, my point was that you can earn a large amount of isk from even one day of running incursions. If it's different people each day then the total number running incursions would be a lot higher than 1.5% but as others have said without the full stats it's impossible to say either way. My opinion is based on my own experience of running incursions and other pve( and I've been all over eve), and not so much on the recently released stats from CCP. Edit for clarity: my stance is that incursion income should be lowered substantially.
what you is saying is BS all other forms of PVE do not require the coordination of a HQ fleet, nothing. abosoloutely NOTHING comes closs to it. Even the *easier* sites require a type of coordination not seen anywhere in Eve, not even PVP fleets have the same coordination.
Now, are you going to stop this constant whining? There is also part of blog that says that incursions balance themselves out due to being the biggest ISK sink in the game.
Not on my death bed are 450 people bringing null sec to it's knees. |
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
990
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:03:55 -
[1140] - Quote
Incursions can be balanced by just adding more of content in to them more spawns tougher ships spawn ranges/place changes....
Ignoring nerf em weeping for a second that is.
That way ppl that focus of those 1.5% can still got solid income and bigger chunk of those 1.5% will see drop in their wallet making curve.
Group pve content should stay in high sec and I dont rly care is it gonna be +íansa incursions or not...but nerf ing them coz "mah bluesec" is sad really.
You have them there they pay more and more ppl can run them...but but...you say,don't care deal with it you did not go to bluesec to farm in the first place now did ya? |
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1892
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:11:59 -
[1141] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Incursions can be balanced by just adding more of content in to them more spawns tougher ships spawn ranges/place changes....
Ignoring nerf em weeping for a second that is.
That way ppl that focus of those 1.5% can still got solid income and bigger chunk of those 1.5% will see drop in their wallet making curve.
Group pve content should stay in high sec and I dont rly care is it gonna be +íansa incursions or not...but nerf ing them coz "mah bluesec" is sad really.
You have them there they pay more and more ppl can run them...but but...you say,don't care deal with it you did not go to bluesec to farm in the first place now did ya?
or just cut the income...
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
|
StuRyan
Space Mutts
62
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:17:46 -
[1142] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Null sec is not high sec. You can't fly bling ships safely out there, and incursions in someone else's space means a fight, not isk.
Dodging the issue doesn't work. The issue is high sec incursions and a few other high sec pve issues. Two things need to happen: High sec high end pve income needs a nerf, and null sec income needs to not be afkable in ishtars anymore.
OMG that nearly made me fall off my seat.
You can't fly bling ships safely in null sec? DONT MAKE ME Laugh.
Intel channels, scouts, blobs, never mind the fact that null sec is the safest part of the game to sign in and make isk.
DOn't forget your smart bombing ratting carriers, and sniper rattlesnakes with 30-40m ticks...for a solo activity....REALLY? |
Josef Djugashvilis
3086
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:20:05 -
[1143] - Quote
There is always somebody ruining the game by doing something or other...
I have never taken part in an Incursion, nor do I wish to.
This is not a signature.
|
StuRyan
Space Mutts
62
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:20:47 -
[1144] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Incursions can be balanced by just adding more of content in to them more spawns tougher ships spawn ranges/place changes....
Ignoring nerf em weeping for a second that is.
That way ppl that focus of those 1.5% can still got solid income and bigger chunk of those 1.5% will see drop in their wallet making curve.
Group pve content should stay in high sec and I dont rly care is it gonna be +íansa incursions or not...but nerf ing them coz "mah bluesec" is sad really.
You have them there they pay more and more ppl can run them...but but...you say,don't care deal with it you did not go to bluesec to farm in the first place now did ya? or just cut the income...
Income is fine the way it is. it is the reward for people playing the game the way CCP intend people to play the game, in a group. If more people ran HS incursions the income for single players would decrease. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1892
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:23:22 -
[1145] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Incursions can be balanced by just adding more of content in to them more spawns tougher ships spawn ranges/place changes....
Ignoring nerf em weeping for a second that is.
That way ppl that focus of those 1.5% can still got solid income and bigger chunk of those 1.5% will see drop in their wallet making curve.
Group pve content should stay in high sec and I dont rly care is it gonna be +íansa incursions or not...but nerf ing them coz "mah bluesec" is sad really.
You have them there they pay more and more ppl can run them...but but...you say,don't care deal with it you did not go to bluesec to farm in the first place now did ya? or just cut the income... Income is fine the way it is. it is the reward for people playing the game the way CCP intend people to play the game, in a group. If more people ran HS incursions the income for single players would decrease.
income would be fine if incursion runners could be contested, but they cant, with the joys of npc corps and concord you are too safe for the isk.
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
62
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:25:22 -
[1146] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Incursions can be balanced by just adding more of content in to them more spawns tougher ships spawn ranges/place changes....
Ignoring nerf em weeping for a second that is.
That way ppl that focus of those 1.5% can still got solid income and bigger chunk of those 1.5% will see drop in their wallet making curve.
Group pve content should stay in high sec and I dont rly care is it gonna be +íansa incursions or not...but nerf ing them coz "mah bluesec" is sad really.
You have them there they pay more and more ppl can run them...but but...you say,don't care deal with it you did not go to bluesec to farm in the first place now did ya? or just cut the income... Income is fine the way it is. it is the reward for people playing the game the way CCP intend people to play the game, in a group. If more people ran HS incursions the income for single players would decrease. income would be fine if incursion runners could be contested, but they cant, with the joys of npc corps and concord you are too safe for the isk.
WTF? get a fleet up of your own and then contest...
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Valacus
Streets of Fire
29
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:26:17 -
[1147] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:Valacus wrote:So what? I can make more ISK carrier ratting than I do running Incursions easily, but it's boring as all hell. I can actually talk to people and interact with them if I run incursions. Carrier ratting only pays well when done solo. Same for virtually every type of ratting that takes place in the game. That's why incursions are not only good, but necessary. It's the only form of group PvE there is, and the only reason it works is because it's worth your time. Level 4 mission runners make just as much ISK, but again, you're playing the game by yourself.
And lol "camping null sec ratting systems should be cause for WAR". No, because you can camp in a cloaked ship that no one has a chance of scanning down. Null sec camping isn't a cause for war because null sec is still broken. People avoid it for a reason. You're trying to force people to rat in null sec because you want more easy kills, when there are still plenty of fights in null sec because people have enough ISK to buy toys to fight in. That's a good thing. And even in spite of all that, there are still at least 20 people ratting in the designated systems my alliance uses at any given time. I just choose not to because again, boring. You're just inflating problems that are harmless because you want null sec to be what you want it to be, when in reality even if they did affect your changes, nothing would change at all, except there'd be one less enjoyable activity to do in game. Let's try this from a different angle; it's clear you like highsec incursions as they are, and the reason why should be obvious both to you and to anyone else with a brain. You make good isk/hr out of them and you can use that ISK to enjoy the game, totally understandable and that's why so many null guys also have incursion alts. Also incursions offer the chance for drop-in drop-out group content that is accessible to (almost) anyone who can fly a battleship. You say that incursions are the only group content available when this is just not true. Wormholes offer group content through sites and escalations; low and null don't offer much in the way of group PvE content as the most efficient way to do most sites is to solo but I'm sure many null players do group up for sites or DED complexes or whatever just for safety/ socialising's sake. I suspect that your biggest problem here isn't the lack of group content (nerfing incursion income doesnt nerf the content) but actually the loss of income. If incursions were pumping out less isk into the economy however then more activities would become competitive for isk-making and possibly prices of ships might even come down somewhat. It could also have the effect of getting more people flying cheaper T1 ships lowering the isk investment to PvP. In the end this would mean that you'll be flying fewer faction or pirate ships but not necessarily that you will be flying less period or that you will be farming more for the same equipment. Valacus wrote: "Because null sec guys should be null sec ratting"
That's your personal opinion.
Wrong, CCP wants people to live in their space.
You can solo wormholes just as well as you can solo any other type of non-Incursion PvE, and the wormhole population didn't go up or down when Incursions came out.
And CCP has been just as ineffective at forcing people into null sec as everyone else. Nerfing or removing incursions won't change that. Null sec itself needs to be changed. Removing everything but null sec will just lower the game population, it won't make null sec more popular.
You all are just ignoring the real issues and trying to force people into null sec by removing all other ISK making options, but no matter how hard you try, you can't force people to live somewhere and you can't force those that live there to make their ISK there. You have to make null sec desirable. Removing incursions does not make null sec any more or less desirable. It literally only does what it does, remove incursions. Even if incursions were no longer a thing, I still wouldn't rat in null sec. That's a lot head ache for a reward I can still get a decent portion of in high sec, only without the head ache. Congratulations, mission not accomplished. What are you going to whine about then? Level 4 missions? Oh yea, remove those. That won't dwindle the game population at all. Your proposed solution gets you nowhere. Null sec itself is the problem. It is poorly designed. Changing high sec doesn't fix that. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1893
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:29:51 -
[1148] - Quote
I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
62
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:34:52 -
[1149] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever
SHOCK, HORROR, Incursions pay more in null sec....
SHOCK, HORROR most Null sec incursions don't mobilize becuase the inhabitants are too lazy to coordinate their own fleet.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1894
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:41:42 -
[1150] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever SHOCK, HORROR, Incursions pay more in null sec.... SHOCK, HORROR most Null sec incursions don't mobilize becuase the inhabitants are too lazy to coordinate their own fleet. SHOCK, HORROR, its 3rd highest ink Faucet and the biggest ISK Sink in the game...
Payouts (i think this is old data though) 31,500,000 ISK and 7,000 CONCORD LP in highsec for up to 40 pilots (maximum payout). 45,000,000 ISK and 10,000 CONCORD LP for low- and nullsec.
13.5mil extra for risking a fleet of 40 pve ships in space where YOU WILL get hotdropped against just running them in highsec with concord protection and pretty much 0 risk. SHOCK, HORROR i know what id rather do
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Valacus
Streets of Fire
29
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:42:17 -
[1151] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever
You can't even definitely prove that 1.5% of the population is unbalanced to begin with. Nul sec ratters and level 4 mission runners have just as much, if not more, ISK potential. What you're whining about is that Incursion runners actually have fun with their PvE, as opposed to everyone else who is stressed or bored out of their minds. Or you're whining that you don't have enough ratters to kill because you can't be bothered to fight people who can fight back. You have no argument.
And CCP clearly plans to replace Sansha incursions with Drifter, and they've already realized that if you don't make Drifter incursions give a hefty payout, no one will bother with them. I suspect that problem will be remedied soon. |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
101
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:43:10 -
[1152] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever SHOCK, HORROR, Incursions pay more in null sec.... SHOCK, HORROR most Null sec incursions don't mobilize becuase the inhabitants are too lazy to coordinate their own fleet. SHOCK, HORROR, its 3rd highest ink Faucet and the biggest ISK Sink in the game...
Lazy? Or is moving a fleet of 40 battleships through who knows how many hostile jumps a recipe for disaster?
@Valacus: I have never advocated removing incursions altogether, and I don't plan to force you anywhere. Income should scale with risk; it's one of CCP's core design approaches, however right now it is backwards and you know it to be true.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
62
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:47:38 -
[1153] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
This is the thing that comes up with every income balance discussion. The lie that it's some attempt to get someone to do somehting they don't want to.
It comes up because usually nullbears cry that there is no content and in reality the way people play out nullsec is killing the content.
Jenn aSide wrote:
No one cares what PVE you do. No one wants you to move to nullsec. The idea behind balancing the combat PVe rewards situation in EVE has nothing to do with you personally, or what you like to do. It's about what is good and right for the game, even if that means your (and my own) imaginary wallet takes a hit. I've funded whole accounts for months with high sec incursions, in less time than it would have taken me in null.
Null sec PVE is perdominately solo based activties. All PVE in null sec doesn't require anywhere near the same level of coordiantion a HS HQ fleet does. BUT i'm curiuous why did you run HS incursion when you have null sec incursions that make you more ISK? That's right, you couldn't raise a fleet becuase your so called alliance was lazy...
Jenn aSide wrote:
The difference between me and you (and the reason I'm not and will never ask for a null sec income buff) is that I believe it's best to not be selfish when it comes to issues of importance like this. If I were as greedy and self interested as the high sec incursion running posters here are, I'd still be mad as hell about CCP fixing the high sec lvl 5 bug.
You can keep thinking it's some kind of ploy to get you to move man, it's a free world after all. But that's a lie, and you know it.
Lvl 5's are, like I said earlies, a solo activity. Why do you keep trying to make this argument you don't seem to understand the concept of group activities should be rewarded more than any solo PVE activity. |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
102
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:48:07 -
[1154] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever SHOCK, HORROR, Incursions pay more in null sec.... SHOCK, HORROR most Null sec incursions don't mobilize becuase the inhabitants are too lazy to coordinate their own fleet. SHOCK, HORROR, its 3rd highest ink Faucet and the biggest ISK Sink in the game... Payouts (i think this is old data though) 31,500,000 ISK and 7,000 CONCORD LP in highsec for up to 40 pilots (maximum payout). 45,000,000 ISK and 10,000 CONCORD LP for low- and nullsec. 13.5mil extra for risking a fleet of 40 pve ships in space where YOU WILL get hotdropped against just running them in highsec with concord protection and pretty much 0 risk. SHOCK, HORROR i know what id rather do
Bear in mind that even taking an extra 10 minutes on a nullsec site could have got you 2 sites done in highsec. I seriously doubt that anyone in nullsec could come close to the efficiency possible in highsec just because of the added risk.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
62
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:51:07 -
[1155] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:Lan Wang wrote:StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever SHOCK, HORROR, Incursions pay more in null sec.... SHOCK, HORROR most Null sec incursions don't mobilize becuase the inhabitants are too lazy to coordinate their own fleet. SHOCK, HORROR, its 3rd highest ink Faucet and the biggest ISK Sink in the game... Payouts (i think this is old data though) 31,500,000 ISK and 7,000 CONCORD LP in highsec for up to 40 pilots (maximum payout). 45,000,000 ISK and 10,000 CONCORD LP for low- and nullsec. 13.5mil extra for risking a fleet of 40 pve ships in space where YOU WILL get hotdropped against just running them in highsec with concord protection and pretty much 0 risk. SHOCK, HORROR i know what id rather do Bear in mind that even taking an extra 10 minutes on a nullsec site could have got you 2 sites done in highsec. I seriously doubt that anyone in nullsec could come close to the efficiency possible in highsec just because of the added risk.
Hot dropped????? LOL you can't be hot dropped in a mobilized null sec incursion hahaha |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12982
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:51:13 -
[1156] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever SHOCK, HORROR, Incursions pay more in null sec.... SHOCK, HORROR most Null sec incursions don't mobilize becuase the inhabitants are too lazy to coordinate their own fleet. SHOCK, HORROR, its 3rd highest ink Faucet and the biggest ISK Sink in the game...
There is that other thing self-interested incursion runners cling to, the "isk sink".
"sure, 1.5% of players generating the 3rd largest isk faucet in the game is unblance,d but hey we sink a lot of isk when we cash in LP, it's ok!!". The problem with that is that we are talking ab out WEALTH, not just isk. When Incursion runners sink that isk, they are still gaining wealth and a highly disproportionate rate.
Because you can generate so much wealth doing high sec incursions, many folks who would otherwise be inclined to generate that wealth in space they actually live in, don't live in their own space.
This has 2 bad effects, it freezes out the high sec players who could use some 'better than lvl 4' wealth to progress in the game (ie that new guy in a maelstrom has to wait, because my null sec living ass is taking up space in his high sec incursion fleet), and (as mentioned) it creates an unassailable wealth faucet for null sec groups.. null groups wealth faucets should NEVER be unassailable.
(side note, this is also the problem with Faction Warfare missions. FW missions should be a way for FW players to generate income to do more FW stuff, instead they are wealth faucets for older, more establish, usually null sec players and groups to fund activity in reality safety, because he cares how many mission running bombers you lose. this causes FW to be farmvile rather than FW, people actually metagame outcomes in FW for farming purposes).
But hey, lets not let understanding the game and why high sec incursions are bad for all of us stand in the way you your selfish bleeting...
|
StuRyan
Space Mutts
62
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:52:34 -
[1157] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever SHOCK, HORROR, Incursions pay more in null sec.... SHOCK, HORROR most Null sec incursions don't mobilize becuase the inhabitants are too lazy to coordinate their own fleet. SHOCK, HORROR, its 3rd highest ink Faucet and the biggest ISK Sink in the game... Lazy? Or is moving a fleet of 40 battleships through who knows how many hostile jumps a recipe for disaster? @Valacus: I have never advocated removing incursions altogether, and I don't plan to force you anywhere. Income should scale with risk; it's one of CCP's core design approaches, however right now it is backwards and you know it to be true.
Intel channels, scouts same thing you've used to make null safer than hs. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1895
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:54:04 -
[1158] - Quote
scouts dont show you the 60 man battleship fleet with triage support and dreads, doesnt matter how you paint it running them in highsec is more worthwhile
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12982
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:55:34 -
[1159] - Quote
Null sec PVE is perdominately solo based activties. All PVE in null sec doesn't require anywhere near the same level of coordiantion a HS HQ fleet does. BUT i'm curiuous why did you run HS incursion when you have null sec incursions that make you more ISK? That's right, you couldn't raise a fleet becuase your so called alliance was lazy... [/quote]
Taking and holding space is not a solo activity.
Also, why high sec incursions. Ask your self that. Why are their high sec incursions communities like WTM and TVP but none for null?
Because flying 40 pirate battleships and logi in null is STUPID, but CONCORD makes doing the same thing in high sec not stupid.
You seem enslaved by your own wallet, but deep down i think you know the truth, which is why you are here trying to defend the indefensible,.
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
62
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:55:43 -
[1160] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever SHOCK, HORROR, Incursions pay more in null sec.... SHOCK, HORROR most Null sec incursions don't mobilize becuase the inhabitants are too lazy to coordinate their own fleet. SHOCK, HORROR, its 3rd highest ink Faucet and the biggest ISK Sink in the game... There is that other thing self-interested incursion runners cling to, the "isk sink". "sure, 1.5% of players generating the 3rd largest isk faucet in the game is unblance,d but hey we sink a lot of isk when we cash in LP, it's ok!!". The problem with that is that we are talking ab out WEALTH, not just isk. When Incursion runners sink that isk, they are still gaining wealth and a highly disproportionate rate. Because you can generate so much wealth doing high sec incursions, many folks who would otherwise be inclined to generate that wealth in space they actually live in, don't live in their own space. This has 2 bad effects, it freezes out the high sec players who could use some 'better than lvl 4' wealth to progress in the game (ie that new guy in a maelstrom has to wait, because my null sec living ass is taking up space in his high sec incursion fleet), and (as mentioned) it creates an unassailable wealth faucet for null sec groups.. null groups wealth faucets should NEVER be unassailable. (side note, this is also the problem with Faction Warfare missions. FW missions should be a way for FW players to generate income to do more FW stuff, instead they are wealth faucets for older, more establish, usually null sec players and groups to fund activity in reality safety, because he cares how many mission running bombers you lose. this causes FW to be farmvile rather than FW, people actually metagame outcomes in FW for farming purposes). But hey, lets not let understanding the game and why high sec incursions are bad for all of us stand in the way you your selfish bleeting...
Cry me a river...cough cough high end moons, countless moons that still can make you weatlh...even the ones that don't have minerials for your to mine can still be capped to make you space rich.
How about the constant isk printing of running plexes in null sec... seriously c'mon on testie
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12982
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:57:16 -
[1161] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:
Intel channels, scouts same thing you've used to make null safer than hs.
Null is safer than high sec? You're just full of these obvious untruths today lol. This is the same kind of dishonesty we always get from high sec people. I'm going to really enjoy it when CCP gets around to curtailing your gravy train.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12982
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 16:59:13 -
[1162] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever SHOCK, HORROR, Incursions pay more in null sec.... SHOCK, HORROR most Null sec incursions don't mobilize becuase the inhabitants are too lazy to coordinate their own fleet. SHOCK, HORROR, its 3rd highest ink Faucet and the biggest ISK Sink in the game... There is that other thing self-interested incursion runners cling to, the "isk sink". "sure, 1.5% of players generating the 3rd largest isk faucet in the game is unblance,d but hey we sink a lot of isk when we cash in LP, it's ok!!". The problem with that is that we are talking ab out WEALTH, not just isk. When Incursion runners sink that isk, they are still gaining wealth and a highly disproportionate rate. Because you can generate so much wealth doing high sec incursions, many folks who would otherwise be inclined to generate that wealth in space they actually live in, don't live in their own space. This has 2 bad effects, it freezes out the high sec players who could use some 'better than lvl 4' wealth to progress in the game (ie that new guy in a maelstrom has to wait, because my null sec living ass is taking up space in his high sec incursion fleet), and (as mentioned) it creates an unassailable wealth faucet for null sec groups.. null groups wealth faucets should NEVER be unassailable. (side note, this is also the problem with Faction Warfare missions. FW missions should be a way for FW players to generate income to do more FW stuff, instead they are wealth faucets for older, more establish, usually null sec players and groups to fund activity in reality safety, because he cares how many mission running bombers you lose. this causes FW to be farmvile rather than FW, people actually metagame outcomes in FW for farming purposes). But hey, lets not let understanding the game and why high sec incursions are bad for all of us stand in the way you your selfish bleeting... Cry me a river...cough cough high end moons, countless moons that still can make you weatlh...even the ones that don't have minerials for your to mine can still be capped to make you space rich. How about the constant isk printing of running plexes in null sec... seriously c'mon on testie
Ah man, you got me. Now I'm going to have to go move my personal pos off of my personal nulls ec moon (the one CCP spawns for you just because you go to null) because you figured it out.
The next thing for you to figure out is why you feel the need to lie over a video game issue, and what that means for you as a person...
|
StuRyan
Space Mutts
62
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 17:00:21 -
[1163] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:StuRyan wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever SHOCK, HORROR, Incursions pay more in null sec.... SHOCK, HORROR most Null sec incursions don't mobilize becuase the inhabitants are too lazy to coordinate their own fleet. SHOCK, HORROR, its 3rd highest ink Faucet and the biggest ISK Sink in the game... There is that other thing self-interested incursion runners cling to, the "isk sink". "sure, 1.5% of players generating the 3rd largest isk faucet in the game is unblance,d but hey we sink a lot of isk when we cash in LP, it's ok!!". The problem with that is that we are talking ab out WEALTH, not just isk. When Incursion runners sink that isk, they are still gaining wealth and a highly disproportionate rate. Because you can generate so much wealth doing high sec incursions, many folks who would otherwise be inclined to generate that wealth in space they actually live in, don't live in their own space. This has 2 bad effects, it freezes out the high sec players who could use some 'better than lvl 4' wealth to progress in the game (ie that new guy in a maelstrom has to wait, because my null sec living ass is taking up space in his high sec incursion fleet), and (as mentioned) it creates an unassailable wealth faucet for null sec groups.. null groups wealth faucets should NEVER be unassailable. (side note, this is also the problem with Faction Warfare missions. FW missions should be a way for FW players to generate income to do more FW stuff, instead they are wealth faucets for older, more establish, usually null sec players and groups to fund activity in reality safety, because he cares how many mission running bombers you lose. this causes FW to be farmvile rather than FW, people actually metagame outcomes in FW for farming purposes). But hey, lets not let understanding the game and why high sec incursions are bad for all of us stand in the way you your selfish bleeting... Cry me a river...cough cough high end moons, countless moons that still can make you weatlh...even the ones that don't have minerials for your to mine can still be capped to make you space rich. How about the constant isk printing of running plexes in null sec... seriously c'mon on testie Ah man, you got me. Now I'm going to have to go move my personal pos off of my personal nulls ec moon (the one CCP spawns for you just because you go to null) because you figured it out. The next thing for you to figure out is why you feel the need to lie over a video game issue, and what that means for you as a person...
lol i guess we're done then. go figure how to make 1b a week from poses. the opportunity is there to make more than a hs runner. |
Bl00dyAngel
Heeresversuchsanstalt The Bastion
57
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 17:00:46 -
[1164] - Quote
generally Incursions are not wrong, by concept. I love the idea to give players fleet expirence beside Pvp. And the rewards are fine too. They need a lot of organisation. And the risk was fine... an than the players adeptied. maybe some of you remember how many ships got wrecked in the beginnings. The problem is the scripted nature of the sites. if you know exact wich ships spawn where there is nearly no risk. make incursion more randome and we see ships die again, and everything is fine. |
StuRyan
Space Mutts
62
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 17:02:37 -
[1165] - Quote
Bl00dyAngel wrote:generally Incursions are not wrong, by concept. I love the idea to give players fleet expirence beside Pvp. And the rewards are fine too. They need a lot of organisation. And the risk was fine... an than the players adeptied. maybe some of you remember how many ships got wrecked in the beginnings. The problem is the scripted nature of the sites. if you know exact wich ships spawn where there is nearly no risk. make incursion more randome and we see ships die again, and everything is fine.
They still do die quite regularly in sites.
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
102
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 17:10:41 -
[1166] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Bl00dyAngel wrote:generally Incursions are not wrong, by concept. I love the idea to give players fleet expirence beside Pvp. And the rewards are fine too. They need a lot of organisation. And the risk was fine... an than the players adeptied. maybe some of you remember how many ships got wrecked in the beginnings. The problem is the scripted nature of the sites. if you know exact wich ships spawn where there is nearly no risk. make incursion more randome and we see ships die again, and everything is fine. They still do die quite regularly in sites.
They do? I've been running them for years and only seen 1 or 2. Then again I normally flew with one of the big groups and got to sit basically AFK while my wallet filled up. Literally the only thing I need to do running a site is be able to see when my overview starts to flash yellow and click my mouse once; okay occasionally I press F1 as well you got me. Having a functioning pair of eyes is not exactly a high requirement for one of the biggest ISK faucets in the game.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
86
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 17:17:56 -
[1167] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:StuRyan wrote:Bl00dyAngel wrote:generally Incursions are not wrong, by concept. I love the idea to give players fleet expirence beside Pvp. And the rewards are fine too. They need a lot of organisation. And the risk was fine... an than the players adeptied. maybe some of you remember how many ships got wrecked in the beginnings. The problem is the scripted nature of the sites. if you know exact wich ships spawn where there is nearly no risk. make incursion more randome and we see ships die again, and everything is fine. They still do die quite regularly in sites. They do? I've been running them for years and only seen 1 or 2. Then again I normally flew with one of the big groups and got to sit basically AFK while my wallet filled up. Literally the only thing I need to do running a site is be able to see when my overview starts to flash yellow and click my mouse once; okay occasionally I press F1 as well you got me. Having a functioning pair of eyes is not exactly a high requirement for one of the biggest ISK faucets in the game.
LOL - I know that some communities have observers to make sure this doesn't happen and usually its 3 strikes and your out of fleet. Persistent offenders are banned.
Like I said more times than I care to say, HS Incursions fleets are incredibly well organised and becuase of that they are able to make a nice amount of isk/hour. If nullbears actually had the same level of ability and willingness to run them in null sec they would trump isk/hour 3 fold and thats even with the less blingy ships you see in HS.
None the less all it takes is a few people not paying attention and the fleet goes to pot and the isk/hour is nowhere near some of the figures you see quoted.
AND BTW the only site that takes less than 15 minutes to complete in a HQ fleet is a TCRC. DO you know how many of the other sites we have to grind to get a TCRC wall. on average you complete 4 sites an hour which can go up to 6 or 7 if you are lucky with the spawns. Regardless of spawn its the organisation of the fleet that you are being rewarded for.
It's surprising that null bears, with all their blues, can't actually work together to complete 4 sites an hour and double/triple the overall ISK faucet and ISK sink. |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 17:33:55 -
[1168] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:If nullbears actually had the same level of ability and willingness to run them in null sec they would trump isk/hour 3 fold and thats even with the less blingy ships you see in HS.
So you think the solution is the whole of nullsec should put aside their differences for the noble goal of farming isk? That is what is needed to balance incursions? Ability depends on the space you are in, in highsec you have to do nothing to make the safe space. In nullsec most people have safe homes through hard work but the rest of the place is hostile removing your ability to run sites like you do in highsec. Willingness you can hardly blame them for taking the easy, logical, reasonable option that CCP have provided; it exists and others will use it so why shouldn't I?
You should try to separate your contribution to the fleet from the organisation provided by the community. Individually I know that I contribute 1/40th of our success and that there are at all times at least 5 or 6 people waiting to fill my spot should I get bored or anything else happen. You are basically being handed money for no effort by you. I shoot targets and broadcast for reps but I'm under no illusion that I'm actually having to put in any effort. The hardest part of highsec incursions to me is just moving my slow battleship around, and that says a lot about the risk involved.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12982
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 17:40:26 -
[1169] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:StuRyan wrote:If nullbears actually had the same level of ability and willingness to run them in null sec they would trump isk/hour 3 fold and thats even with the less blingy ships you see in HS. So you think the solution is the whole of nullsec should put aside their differences for the noble goal of farming isk?
He probably does think that. Extreme self interest (ie don't nerf this thing i depend on, even if it's terrible) and prejudice (notice the word 'nullbears') causes delusion, and delusion makes unreasonable things (all null should blue up and incursion farm) seem reasonable to people like that lol.
Like I been saying, it really doesn't matter what people like that think. Some CCP guys has shown increasing signs of awareness of these issues when we talk to them at player events and such. It took CCP 3+ years to fix the high sec lvl 5 bug (and that was an acutal bug and one they knew about from the start), they'll eventually fix the situation we are discussing here too. |
StuRyan
Space Mutts
86
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 17:56:00 -
[1170] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:StuRyan wrote:If nullbears actually had the same level of ability and willingness to run them in null sec they would trump isk/hour 3 fold and thats even with the less blingy ships you see in HS. So you think the solution is the whole of nullsec should put aside their differences for the noble goal of farming isk? That is what is needed to balance incursions? Ability depends on the space you are in, in highsec you have to do nothing to make the safe space. In nullsec most people have safe homes through hard work but the rest of the place is hostile removing your ability to run sites like you do in highsec. Willingness you can hardly blame them for taking the easy, logical, reasonable option that CCP have provided; it exists and others will use it so why shouldn't I? You should try to separate your contribution to the fleet from the organisation provided by the community. Individually I know that I contribute 1/40th of our success and that there are at all times at least 5 or 6 people waiting to fill my spot should I get bored or anything else happen. You are basically being handed money for no effort by you. I shoot targets and broadcast for reps but I'm under no illusion that I'm actually having to put in any effort. The hardest part of highsec incursions to me is just moving my slow battleship around, and that says a lot about the risk involved.
Nobody is denying null sec is tough but thats the trade off you made for living in null sec. You also have access to the biggest form of passive isk in the form of moons. These alone could make you substancially more ISK/hour than an incursion runner does.
I disagree 100% "most people have safe homes through hard work but the rest of the place is hostile "; most of NPC space is empty, a vast majority of sov null sec is empty where exaclty are these hostiles? If anything you null bears are pretty good at blobbing but you have trouble blobbing an null sec incursion.
"Whole of nullsec should put their differences aside for the noble goal of farming ISK?" You've already accomplished that.
Don't let the fact that becuase nobody can own high sec it isn't tough especially with the likes of Code about. Supply and demand is a considerably more diverse in high sec.
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
86
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:05:13 -
[1171] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:StuRyan wrote:If nullbears actually had the same level of ability and willingness to run them in null sec they would trump isk/hour 3 fold and thats even with the less blingy ships you see in HS. So you think the solution is the whole of nullsec should put aside their differences for the noble goal of farming isk? He probably does think that. Extreme self interest (ie don't nerf this thing i depend on, even if it's terrible) and prejudice (notice the word 'nullbears') causes delusion, and delusion makes unreasonable things (all null should blue up and incursion farm) seem reasonable to people like that lol. Like I been saying, it really doesn't matter what people like that think. Some CCP guys has shown increasing signs of awareness of these issues when we talk to them at player events and such. It took CCP 3+ years to fix the high sec lvl 5 bug (and that was an acutal bug and one they knew about from the start), they'll eventually fix the situation we are discussing here too.
I don't depend on anything incursion related, I actually enjoy, more than anything, the fact that we work together and we get rewarded the same way you do for securing a part of null sec. The issue here is you seem completely ignorant in accepting you have the same opportunity to make more isk/hour in null running the exact same things, plus the fact that once space is secured you have a vast amount of ways to make ISK in a solo manner. |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:06:07 -
[1172] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Some CCP guys has shown increasing signs of awareness of these issues when we talk to them at player events and such. It took CCP 3+ years to fix the high sec lvl 5 bug (and that was an acutal bug and one they knew about from the start), they'll eventually fix the situation we are discussing here too.
Good to hear that CCP are aware of it, not so good that they've taken so long to notice the payouts are out of line but slow progress is still progress.
StuRyan wrote:I disagree 100% "most people have safe homes through hard work but the rest of the place is hostile "; most of NPC space is empty, a vast majority of sov null sec is empty where exaclty are these hostiles? If anything you null bears are pretty good at blobbing but you have trouble blobbing an null sec incursion
If I wanted to blob a nullsec incursion I would just cyno in nearby (edit: not in constellation ofc), it's not like a bunch of battleships are going to sneak away on me.
StuRyan wrote:Don't let the fact that becuase nobody can own high sec it isn't tough especially with the likes of Code about.
High-sec does have some unique dangers in that you can't know if someone wants to gank you or not. Makes it hard to be prepared. Still, if I'm flying a vindicator around highsec I have a low chance of being ganked; if I flew it into lowsec or nullsec I would 100% certainly be pounced on by the first corp that saw me.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
86
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:15:36 -
[1173] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:Good to hear that CCP are aware of it, not so good that they've taken so long to notice the payouts are out of line but slow progress is still progress. [quote] It's just another example of null sec influencing part of the game in the hope that is makes things more interesting for them because for some reason null sec is more special. Mr Mieyli wrote:
If I wanted to blob a nullsec incursion I would just cyno in nearby, it's not like a bunch of battleships are going to sneak away on me.
yeah all you have to do is warp to the fleet in a nearby pos. [quote=Mr Mieyli] High-sec does have some unique dangers in that you can't know if someone wants to gank you or not. Makes it hard to be prepared. Still, if I'm flying a vindicator around highsec I have a low chance of being ganked; if I flew it into lowsec or nullsec I would 100% certainly be pounced on by the first corp that saw me.
Pretty sure people do that just to create content for themselves. I'd be more worried as to why you were flying a vindi around in null sec without scouts if all you were doing was travelling around.
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Valacus
Streets of Fire
29
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:15:40 -
[1174] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:StuRyan wrote:Lan Wang wrote:I dont think anyone is trying to force anyone to nullsec, why buff a whole part of space to keep the 1.5% of an unbalanced activity happy when you can just nerf the problem.
ccp have clearly said sansha incursions cant last forever SHOCK, HORROR, Incursions pay more in null sec.... SHOCK, HORROR most Null sec incursions don't mobilize becuase the inhabitants are too lazy to coordinate their own fleet. SHOCK, HORROR, its 3rd highest ink Faucet and the biggest ISK Sink in the game... Lazy? Or is moving a fleet of 40 battleships through who knows how many hostile jumps a recipe for disaster? @Valacus: I have never advocated removing incursions altogether, and I don't plan to force you anywhere. Income should scale with risk; it's one of CCP's core design approaches, however right now it is backwards and you know it to be true.
But level 4 missions already make comparable ISK. Also, incursions require 40 man fleets. That alone means the payout should be hefty, so the income is already scaling correctly. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1896
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:26:14 -
[1175] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:
Good to hear that CCP are aware of it, not so good that they've taken so long to notice the payouts are out of line but slow progress is still progress.
It's just another example of null sec influencing part of the game in the hope that is makes things more interesting for them because for some reason null sec is more special. Mr Mieyli wrote:
If I wanted to blob a nullsec incursion I would just cyno in nearby, it's not like a bunch of battleships are going to sneak away on me.
yeah all you have to do is warp to the fleet in a nearby pos. Mr Mieyli wrote:
High-sec does have some unique dangers in that you can't know if someone wants to gank you or not. Makes it hard to be prepared. Still, if I'm flying a vindicator around highsec I have a low chance of being ganked; if I flew it into lowsec or nullsec I would 100% certainly be pounced on by the first corp that saw me.
Pretty sure people do that just to create content for themselves. I'd be more worried as to why you were flying a vindi around in null sec without scouts if all you were doing was travelling around.
nullsec is more special buttercup
i think you are missing an important detail here you cant just throw up pos's anywhere you want (that costs money) and incursions move around, so how can a group of null players successfully run incursions constantly if incursions spawn in hostile space?
again 13.5mil extra isk cannot warrant the sheer risk involved in nullsec incursions compared to highsec, its not lazy its common sense
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
583
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:34:56 -
[1176] - Quote
13.5mill per member, per site. so lets be conservative and say 3 sites an hour. So that's 13.5 * 3 * 40. 1.62 bill per hour extra.
How much is a large pos and stront and fuel?
Also lol nullseccers complaining about logistics of setting up a single pos. What R Cynos.
It is amusing the arguments coming out.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
86
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:39:45 -
[1177] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:nullsec is more special buttercup i think you are missing an important detail here you cant just throw up pos's anywhere you want (that costs money) and incursions move around, so how can a group of null players successfully run incursions constantly if incursions spawn in hostile space? again 13.5mil extra isk cannot warrant the sheer risk involved in nullsec incursions compared to highsec, its not lazy its common sense
Incursions move, be patient, one usually spawns in friendly space at least once a week.
You could also try diplomacy - it worked well for me when I arranged an agreement with an enemy. We farmed it for a week and put our standings aside.
Instead of hoping that ending HS incursions will somehow make null sec interesting again, why aren't you asking the question to ccp for incursions to spawn more regularly in your neighborhood. Now that would make null sec special! |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12984
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:40:14 -
[1178] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:StuRyan wrote:If nullbears actually had the same level of ability and willingness to run them in null sec they would trump isk/hour 3 fold and thats even with the less blingy ships you see in HS. So you think the solution is the whole of nullsec should put aside their differences for the noble goal of farming isk? He probably does think that. Extreme self interest (ie don't nerf this thing i depend on, even if it's terrible) and prejudice (notice the word 'nullbears') causes delusion, and delusion makes unreasonable things (all null should blue up and incursion farm) seem reasonable to people like that lol. Like I been saying, it really doesn't matter what people like that think. Some CCP guys has shown increasing signs of awareness of these issues when we talk to them at player events and such. It took CCP 3+ years to fix the high sec lvl 5 bug (and that was an acutal bug and one they knew about from the start), they'll eventually fix the situation we are discussing here too. I don't depend on anything incursion related, I actually enjoy, more than anything, the fact that we work together and we get rewarded the same way you do for securing a part of null sec. The issue here is you seem completely ignorant in accepting you have the same opportunity to make more isk/hour in null running the exact same things, plus the fact that once space is secured you have a vast amount of ways to make ISK in a solo manner.
Like I said, delusional. The choice folks like me have to make is "fly in null sec, risk getting blown up and make less isk, because getting blown up costs time, OR just log in incursion alt and make safe isk, or log in FW alt and make even more wealth at the slight cost of replacing stealth bombers once per week".
Combat PVE is broken, and Incursions are a big (but not the only) part of it. It's not about stuffing some imaginary wallet with imaginary cash, it's the distortions in the game caused by unbalanced content (as has been explained previously).
Cling to your self interest all you want, but like i said, the right people are becoming aware of this issue that hurts this game in many different ways.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12984
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:43:00 -
[1179] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:13.5mill per member, per site. so lets be conservative and say 3 sites an hour. So that's 13.5 * 3 * 40. 1.62 bill per hour extra.
How much is a large pos and stront and fuel?
Also lol nullseccers complaining about logistics of setting up a single pos. What R Cynos.
It is amusing the arguments coming out.
What more amusing is watching people use bad logic while smirking 9especially seeing as I know you're smarter than this, you made an amazing guide so you have to be able to think)..
We get that you types don't care about right and wrong (for the game) here, but some of us do, which is why we're going to keep talking about this.
Edit, wait, youre telling me you don't know about how POSes work in null but still decided to comment? |
StuRyan
Space Mutts
86
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:43:29 -
[1180] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Like I said, delusional. The choice folks like me have to make is "fly in null sec, risk getting blown up and make less isk, because getting blown up costs time, OR just log in incursion alt and make safe isk, or log in FW alt and make even more wealth at the slight cost of replacing stealth bombers once per week".
Combat PVE is broken, and Incursions are a big (but not the only) part of it. It's not about stuffing some imaginary wallet with imaginary cash, it's the distortions in the game caused by unbalanced content (as has been explained previously).
Cling to your self interest all you want, but like i said, the right people are becoming aware of this issue that hurts this game in many different ways.
YAWN....
Couldn't be anymore delusional than right here.
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:45:51 -
[1181] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:nullsec is more special buttercup i think you are missing an important detail here you cant just throw up pos's anywhere you want (that costs money) and incursions move around, so how can a group of null players successfully run incursions constantly if incursions spawn in hostile space? again 13.5mil extra isk cannot warrant the sheer risk involved in nullsec incursions compared to highsec, its not lazy its common sense Incursions move, be patient, one usually spawns in friendly space at least once a week. You could also try diplomacy - it worked well for me when I arranged an agreement with an enemy. We farmed it for a week and put our standings aside. Instead of hoping that ending HS incursions will somehow make null sec interesting again, why aren't you asking the question to ccp for incursions to spawn more regularly in your neighborhood. Now that would make null sec special!
I did not write that quote..
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1897
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:48:23 -
[1182] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:13.5mill per member, per site. so lets be conservative and say 3 sites an hour. So that's 13.5 * 3 * 40. 1.62 bill per hour extra.
How much is a large pos and stront and fuel?
Also lol nullseccers complaining about logistics of setting up a single pos. What R Cynos.
It is amusing the arguments coming out.
cant light cynos in incursion systems, dont even know if you can setup pos's in incursion systems so thats a silly comment you still have the risk of being hellcamped on out gates by a load of battleships and supers, yeah cynos, all you need is a cyno on each out gate to ruin a nullsec incursion runners day, cant do that in highsec though huh
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
228
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 18:49:00 -
[1183] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:
i think you are missing an important detail here you cant just throw up pos's anywhere you want (that costs money) and incursions move around, so how can a group of null players successfully run incursions constantly if incursions spawn in hostile space?
again 13.5mil extra isk cannot warrant the sheer risk involved in nullsec incursions compared to highsec, its not lazy its common sense
After reading a post answering one of mine (post #1095).
I also came to that conclusion.
It's not so much incursions but the fact that all areas are not the same and hence it's possible to do more of them in high-sec.
So is the issue the amount they pay-out or the fact high-sec can do more of them, personally I think it's the latter.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12986
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 19:03:15 -
[1184] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote:
i think you are missing an important detail here you cant just throw up pos's anywhere you want (that costs money) and incursions move around, so how can a group of null players successfully run incursions constantly if incursions spawn in hostile space?
again 13.5mil extra isk cannot warrant the sheer risk involved in nullsec incursions compared to highsec, its not lazy its common sense
After reading a post answering one of mine (post #1095). I also came to that conclusion. It's not so much incursions but the fact that all areas are not the same and hence it's possible to do more of them in high-sec. So is the issue the amount they pay-out or the fact high-sec can do more of them, personally I think it's the latter.
It's both actually. In High you can do more AND you can use blingy ships that are impractical to move around in low/null, whcih evens out the fact that low and null incursions pay more per site. My old ISN Vindicator cost almost 6 bil all fit out. That's 3 carriers worth of isk lol. No way that Vindi would ever leave high sec. Basically it's the formula of "too much isk for the safety, to much safety for the isk". It's the nature of High Sec (with it's automated CONCORD response) that makes this possible
If CONCORD didn't spawn in Incursion sites (meaning the only defense would then be the logistics you bring), it wouldn't be as much of an issue because people would fly less blingy ships in high sec incursions thus faucetting less isk into the game, lessening the impact this imbalance has on the rest of New Eden.. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
29
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 19:15:04 -
[1185] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote:
i think you are missing an important detail here you cant just throw up pos's anywhere you want (that costs money) and incursions move around, so how can a group of null players successfully run incursions constantly if incursions spawn in hostile space?
again 13.5mil extra isk cannot warrant the sheer risk involved in nullsec incursions compared to highsec, its not lazy its common sense
After reading a post answering one of mine (post #1095). I also came to that conclusion. It's not so much incursions but the fact that all areas are not the same and hence it's possible to do more of them in high-sec. So is the issue the amount they pay-out or the fact high-sec can do more of them, personally I think it's the latter. It's both actually. In High you can do more AND you can use blingy ships that are impractical to move around in low/null, whcih evens out the fact that low and null incursions pay more per site. My old ISN Vindicator cost almost 6 bil all fit out. That's 3 carriers worth of isk lol. No way that Vindi would ever leave high sec. Basically it's the formula of "too much isk for the safety, to much safety for the isk". It's the nature of High Sec (with it's automated CONCORD response) that makes this possible If CONCORD didn't spawn in Incursion sites (meaning the only defense would then be the logistics you bring), it wouldn't be as much of an issue because people would fly less blingy ships in high sec incursions thus faucetting less isk into the game, lessening the impact this imbalance has on the rest of New Eden..
You still can't even prove it's imbalanced. Everything you say is based on suppositions and assumptions that simply aren't true, and your solution won't have any effect on the game even close to what you want it to. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12986
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 19:22:59 -
[1186] - Quote
Valacus wrote:
You still can't even prove it's imbalanced. Everything you say is based on suppositions and assumptions that simply aren't true, and your solution won't have any effect on the game even close to what you want it to.
This again. Even if you don't want to accept the evidence that exists (there goes that backfire effect again) and even though you have ZERO counter evidence, you know that you can actually test this imbalance for yourself in numerous ways.
Incursion to Incursion:
Do a week of high sec incursions. Then find a group (lol) and do low or null incursions for a week. Check wallet after a week and post the results and I SWEAR I won't laugh (much) at the zeros you post because you couldn't find a low or null incursion group to join being that they largely don't exist.
Incursion to Null anomaly:
Pick a DPS ship that you do incursions with. Do a week of high sec incursions. Then use the same ship in null doing anomalies. Anoms are the main isk generators in null btw. After a week compare your gains. Try not to tear up as you see the incursion stack be much larger than the anom stack.
Now of course, to do the above, you'd have to actually be interested in the truth of these matters and that is a HUGE stumbling block for people hell bent on maintaining an advantage they know is unbalanced.. but if you can cross that barrier, you will be enlightened by what you find. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 19:39:11 -
[1187] - Quote
Valacus wrote:
So what? I can make more ISK carrier ratting than I do running Incursions easily, but it's boring as all hell.
No you cant. Carrier ratting at its very best will match running level 4 missions in highsec.
Valacus wrote: I can actually talk to people and interact with them if I run incursions. Carrier ratting only pays well when done solo. Same for virtually every type of ratting that takes place in the game. That's why incursions are not only good, but necessary. It's the only form of group PvE there is
Also a big negative on that one too. Our regional ratting fleets are way bigger and way more chatty
Valacus wrote: You're trying to force people to rat in null sec because you want more easy kills, when there are still plenty of fights in null sec because people have enough ISK to buy toys to fight in.
Wrong again, we want change so that the best rewards require the most investment, effort and risk. I don't care if you chose to stay in highsec or not, I want a reason for me to be out in null rather than earning my isk in highsec.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 19:41:26 -
[1188] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:
Nobody is denying null sec is tough but thats the trade off you made for living in null sec. You also have access to the biggest form of passive isk in the form of moons. These alone could make you substancially more ISK/hour than an incursion runner does.
They earn as much as a single ice miner does.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Valacus
Streets of Fire
29
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 19:48:49 -
[1189] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Valacus wrote:
You still can't even prove it's imbalanced. Everything you say is based on suppositions and assumptions that simply aren't true, and your solution won't have any effect on the game even close to what you want it to.
This again. Even if you don't want to accept the evidence that exists (there goes that backfire effect again) and even though you have ZERO counter evidence, you know that you can actually test this imbalance for yourself in numerous ways. Incursion to Incursion: Do a week of high sec incursions. Then find a group (lol) and do low or null incursions for a week. Check wallet after a week and post the results and I SWEAR I won't laugh (much) at the zeros you post because you couldn't find a low or null incursion group to join being that they largely don't exist. Incursion to Null anomaly: Pick a DPS ship that you do incursions with. Do a week of high sec incursions. Then use the same ship in null doing anomalies. Anoms are the main isk generators in null btw. After a week compare your gains. Try not to tear up as you see the incursion stack be much larger than the anom stack. Now of course, to do the above, you'd have to actually be interested in the truth of these matters and that is a HUGE stumbling block for people hell bent on maintaining an advantage they know is unbalanced.. but if you can cross that barrier, you will be enlightened by what you find.
Even your supposed "evidence" is all supposition. It's speculation and possible causation. Well, I can do that too.
One of the reason incursion runners, despite being few, make so much ISK is because they are well organized, and that is purely through necessity. Without organization there is no incursion running. Logistics are established ahead of time to ensure the fleets can keep running through all time zones so that all time zones can partake. Another possibility as to why incursion runners make more than their fellow EVE players is simply because they like it. Ratting in null is boring. Running level 4s is boring. Soloing is just not that fun. Incursion running at least provides conversation if nothing else. More things your "evidence" doesn't take into account. You still have nothing. The raw ISK per hour of high sec incursions vs. level 4s and null sec ratting is still comparable. Incursion runners don't make more ISK per hour, they simply run more hours of it because the activity is more bearable. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
584
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 19:58:30 -
[1190] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:13.5mill per member, per site. so lets be conservative and say 3 sites an hour. So that's 13.5 * 3 * 40. 1.62 bill per hour extra.
How much is a large pos and stront and fuel?
Also lol nullseccers complaining about logistics of setting up a single pos. What R Cynos.
It is amusing the arguments coming out. cant light cynos in incursion systems, dont even know if you can setup pos's in incursion systems so thats a silly comment you still have the risk of being hellcamped on out gates by a load of battleships and supers, yeah cynos, all you need is a cyno on each out gate to ruin a nullsec incursion runners day, cant do that in highsec though huh. everyone has intel chanels as soon as someone notices a fleet of 40 faction battleships doing an incursion you will be having a bad day. Sounds like content to me.
Oh wait, don't want content in null, my bad.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:01:30 -
[1191] - Quote
Valacus wrote:
Even your supposed "evidence" is all supposition. It's speculation and possible causation. Well, I can do that too.
One of the reason incursion runners, despite being few, make so much ISK is because they are well organized, and that is purely through necessity. Without organization there is no incursion running. Logistics are established ahead of time to ensure the fleets can keep running through all time zones so that all time zones can partake. Another possibility as to why incursion runners make more than their fellow EVE players is simply because they like it. Ratting in null is boring. Running level 4s is boring. Soloing is just not that fun. Incursion running at least provides conversation if nothing else. More things your "evidence" doesn't take into account. You still have nothing. The raw ISK per hour of high sec incursions vs. level 4s and null sec ratting is still comparable. Incursion runners don't make more ISK per hour, they simply run more hours of it because the activity is more bearable.
Nope, they earn more isk/hr than you can out in null and thats a hard fact. If you are comparing organisation incursion runners are at the low end of the scale, they dont run fleets over an entire cluster, they don't operate with intel channels, they don't operate with jump capable ships, they don't have to run the logistics of operating infrastructure we have in sov space. Incursion fleets are no more complicated than any roaming gang.
isk/hr is fairly straight forwards to work out and at this point we have it down to an exact science for every activity. Null is the worst place to earn your isk as a line member.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:03:01 -
[1192] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: Sounds like content to me.
Oh wait, don't want content in null, my bad.
There is content and then there is sending the lambs to the slaughter.
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
584
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:05:13 -
[1193] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: Sounds like content to me.
Oh wait, don't want content in null, my bad.
There is content and then there is sending the lambs to the slaughter. It's come to this, the great nullsec Alliances has come down to this.
CCP is the least of this game's problems.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:09:28 -
[1194] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: It's come to this, the great nullsec Alliances has come down to this.
CCP is the least of this game's problems.
You honestly think test sending a 40 man PVE battleship fleet into the heart of the CFC to run an incursion will end well for test?
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
584
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:12:51 -
[1195] - Quote
Then why isn't CfC doing it? One of the single most lucrative activities in eve is being left unused because the biggest, meanest, 'most bestest' Alliance in the game with thousands of members and ships and hundreds of supers 'might get shot at'.
What a colossal joke.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16998
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:17:52 -
[1196] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Then why isn't CfC doing it? One of the single most lucrative activities in eve in being left unused because the biggest, meanest, 'most bestest' Alliance in the game with thousands of members and ships and hundreds of supers 'might get shot at'.
What a colossal joke.
Because the same thing would happen if we sent a battleship fleet to the Russian regions, it simply doesn't work in null space. We will run it when it shows up in our space as we have backup that can defend the fleet but when it moves on we cant follow like you can in highsec.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12986
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:30:06 -
[1197] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Then why isn't CfC doing it? One of the single most lucrative activities in eve is being left unused because the biggest, meanest, 'most bestest' Alliance in the game with thousands of members and ships and hundreds of supers 'might get shot at'.
What a colossal joke.
CfC/imp[erium does run incursions in their own space, I know because my Allainces has found wormholes to them and tried to go after them sometimes. Are you really letting anti-Goon prejudice affect your ability to reason? i've got bees all up in my killboard and I don't even do that.
I didn't peg you for one who practices denialism.
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
584
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:43:02 -
[1198] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Then why isn't CfC doing it? One of the single most lucrative activities in eve is being left unused because the biggest, meanest, 'most bestest' Alliance in the game with thousands of members and ships and hundreds of supers 'might get shot at'.
What a colossal joke. CfC/imp[erium does run incursions in their own space, I know because my Allainces has found wormholes to them and tried to go after them sometimes. Are you really letting anti-Goon prejudice affect your ability to reason? i've got bees all up in my killboard and I don't even do that. I didn't peg you for one who practices denialism. Character assassination, how original
Regardless, what I said applies to all nullsec alliances, there's no focus on one specific alliance but it is telling that the biggest ones wont even bother. It's there for the taking but you know, being risk averse is not something exclusive to HS players it seems. It's not null that's dead, it's the people that live there. The stories I've heard of Nullsec Alliances back in the day and what I see in game and on the forums now are so different it's no wonder. Would rather whine to CCP day and night than lift a finger to affect change themselves.
Whatever, not even worth the time I'm spending to write this.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12986
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 20:52:54 -
[1199] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Then why isn't CfC doing it? One of the single most lucrative activities in eve is being left unused because the biggest, meanest, 'most bestest' Alliance in the game with thousands of members and ships and hundreds of supers 'might get shot at'.
What a colossal joke. CfC/imp[erium does run incursions in their own space, I know because my Allainces has found wormholes to them and tried to go after them sometimes. Are you really letting anti-Goon prejudice affect your ability to reason? i've got bees all up in my killboard and I don't even do that. I didn't peg you for one who practices denialism. Character assassination, how original Regardless, what I said applies to all nullsec alliances, there's no focus on one specific alliance but it is telling that the biggest ones wont even bother. It's there for the taking but you know, being risk averse is not something exclusive to HS players it seems. It's not null that's dead, it's the people that live there. The stories I've heard of Nullsec Alliances back in the day and what I see in game and on the forums now are so different it's no wonder. Would rather whine to CCP day and night than lift a finger to affect change themselves. Whatever, not even worth the time I'm spending to write this.
What, exactly, does this prejudiced rant have to do with the measurable combat pve rewards imbalance? I'm not assassinating your character, you are, YOU have in your sig an example of the imbalance, you know 1st hand what can be done in high sec.
I get why you don't really want to discuss it, like i said earlier in this thread, a wise man once said GÇ£It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.GÇ¥ But I want you to consider the fact that the income in question is imaginary, and you refuse to acknowledge that a problem could even exist, and when asked about it you rant about null sec alliances rather than discuss the issue.
I admit it irritates me, as a PVE player I'd have thought PVE players would both understand the issues invovled here and be able to recognize how those issues connect to the rest of the game (good and bad), and mainly I'd expect you to be one of those able to analyze the issue intelligently. But you haven't.
I mean, I expect it from those fair-weather PVErs called incursion runners, but not from mission specialists like you (because high level mission running takes way more brain power than F1ing it through a TCRC wall over and over again). |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17000
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 21:02:31 -
[1200] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Character assassination, how original Regardless, what I said applies to all nullsec alliances, there's no focus on one specific alliance but it is telling that the biggest ones wont even bother. It's there for the taking but you know, being risk averse is not something exclusive to HS players it seems. It's not null that's dead, it's the people that live there. The stories I've heard of Nullsec Alliances back in the day and what I see in game and on the forums now are so different it's no wonder. Would rather whine to CCP day and night than lift a finger to affect change themselves. Whatever, not even worth the time I'm spending to write this.
You honestly think anyone would be able to take a 40 man pve battleship fleet into null without it getting torn apart?
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
990
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 21:26:24 -
[1201] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Character assassination, how original Regardless, what I said applies to all nullsec alliances, there's no focus on one specific alliance but it is telling that the biggest ones wont even bother. It's there for the taking but you know, being risk averse is not something exclusive to HS players it seems. It's not null that's dead, it's the people that live there. The stories I've heard of Nullsec Alliances back in the day and what I see in game and on the forums now are so different it's no wonder. Would rather whine to CCP day and night than lift a finger to affect change themselves. Whatever, not even worth the time I'm spending to write this. You honestly think anyone would be able to take a 40 man pve battleship fleet into null without it getting torn apart?
That's null.sec for ya try smaller fleets or poking your nose in low sec hunting for mom blueprint.
Maybe CCP can make them static in null sec so you can run them like you are in high sec.....wouldn't bet on it tho.
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
86
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 21:46:02 -
[1202] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:13.5mill per member, per site. so lets be conservative and say 3 sites an hour. So that's 13.5 * 3 * 40. 1.62 bill per hour extra.
How much is a large pos and stront and fuel?
Also lol nullseccers complaining about logistics of setting up a single pos. What R Cynos.
It is amusing the arguments coming out. cant light cynos in incursion systems, dont even know if you can setup pos's in incursion systems so thats a silly comment you still have the risk of being hellcamped on out gates by a load of battleships and supers, yeah cynos, all you need is a cyno on each out gate to ruin a nullsec incursion runners day, cant do that in highsec though huh. everyone has intel chanels as soon as someone notices a fleet of 40 faction battleships doing an incursion you will be having a bad day. Sounds like content to me. Oh wait, don't want content in null, my bad.
LOL - said exactly what I thought. |
StuRyan
Space Mutts
86
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 21:46:56 -
[1203] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Valacus wrote:
Even your supposed "evidence" is all supposition. It's speculation and possible causation. Well, I can do that too.
One of the reason incursion runners, despite being few, make so much ISK is because they are well organized, and that is purely through necessity. Without organization there is no incursion running. Logistics are established ahead of time to ensure the fleets can keep running through all time zones so that all time zones can partake. Another possibility as to why incursion runners make more than their fellow EVE players is simply because they like it. Ratting in null is boring. Running level 4s is boring. Soloing is just not that fun. Incursion running at least provides conversation if nothing else. More things your "evidence" doesn't take into account. You still have nothing. The raw ISK per hour of high sec incursions vs. level 4s and null sec ratting is still comparable. Incursion runners don't make more ISK per hour, they simply run more hours of it because the activity is more bearable.
Nope, they earn more isk/hr than you can out in null and thats a hard fact. If you are comparing organisation incursion runners are at the low end of the scale, they dont run fleets over an entire cluster, they don't operate with intel channels, they don't operate with jump capable ships, they don't have to run the logistics of operating infrastructure we have in sov space. Incursion fleets are no more complicated than any roaming gang. Best part is people can still solo incursions although granted its complicated and requires a good few alts. isk/hr is fairly straight forwards to work out and at this point we have it down to an exact science for every activity. Null is the worst place to earn your isk as a line member.
Could have sworn there are null sec incursions.... |
StuRyan
Space Mutts
86
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 21:47:50 -
[1204] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Character assassination, how original Regardless, what I said applies to all nullsec alliances, there's no focus on one specific alliance but it is telling that the biggest ones wont even bother. It's there for the taking but you know, being risk averse is not something exclusive to HS players it seems. It's not null that's dead, it's the people that live there. The stories I've heard of Nullsec Alliances back in the day and what I see in game and on the forums now are so different it's no wonder. Would rather whine to CCP day and night than lift a finger to affect change themselves. Whatever, not even worth the time I'm spending to write this. You honestly think anyone would be able to take a 40 man pve battleship fleet into null without it getting torn apart? That's null.sec for ya try smaller fleets or poking your nose in low sec hunting for mom blueprint. Maybe CCP can make them static in null sec so you can run them like you are in high sec.....wouldn't bet on it tho.
Why do people think they need 40 man fleets to run incursions in null sec.??
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
990
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 21:56:13 -
[1205] - Quote
No idea they need big number so it's more legit whine...
Also for the record I'm doing ~80 mil h doing VG like most ppl do did not run HQ site since forever. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17000
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 21:57:41 -
[1206] - Quote
StuRyan wrote:
Could have sworn there are null sec incursions....
They spawn once every 1-3 months in our space.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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StuRyan
Space Mutts
86
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 22:03:23 -
[1207] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:StuRyan wrote:
Could have sworn there are null sec incursions....
They spawn once every 1-3 months in our space.
Personally, thats the bigger problem easily resolved by having a new severity module that increases the incursions spawn rate in a constellation the same way wormhole augmentation modules work. |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 22:24:34 -
[1208] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:No idea they need big number so it's more legit whine...
Also for the record I'm doing ~80 mil h doing VG like most ppl do did not run HQ site since forever.
I can run HQ sites in highsec and make like 130m/hr. I would have to at least run HQs in low or null to match my HS income; but if I try, I'll be insta-gibbed. You see the problem?
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
990
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 22:30:39 -
[1209] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:No idea they need big number so it's more legit whine...
Also for the record I'm doing ~80 mil h doing VG like most ppl do did not run HQ site since forever. I can run HQ sites in highsec and make like 130m/hr. I would have to at least run HQs in low or null to match my HS income; but if I try, I'll be insta-gibbed. You see the problem?
You will not be installed blobed in low(you will eventually i know i did)and can easily brake 130m/h doing nothing but VG in there but nature of those places have nothing to do with high sec and don't think for one second that if you are running HQ sites 23.5/7 other ppl do it too. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7204
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 22:41:26 -
[1210] - Quote
Fastest way to end highsec incursions is NOT to go begging to CCP.
Just pop the mothership when it appears. But that might require having friends and being skilled for more than just ganking defenseless freighters.
Player-based in-game solutions. Gotta love them!
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12989
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 23:08:26 -
[1211] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Fastest way to end highsec incursions is NOT to go begging to CCP.
Just pop the mothership when it appears. But that might require having friends and being skilled for more than just ganking defenseless freighters.
Player-based in-game solutions. Gotta love them!
Or, we can keep doing what we are doing, running the incursions on alts, freezing out high sec players who might want to do them themselves, and funnel the outrageous isk faucet into null sec like everything else. Why would we kill our own cash cow like you suggest?
This thread is proof that only some of us favor balance over benefit.
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Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 23:18:35 -
[1212] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Fastest way to end highsec incursions is NOT to go begging to CCP.
Just pop the mothership when it appears. But that might require having friends and being skilled for more than just ganking defenseless freighters.
Player-based in-game solutions. Gotta love them! Or, we can keep doing what we are doing, running the incursions on alts, freezing out high sec players who might want to do them themselves, and funnel the outrageous isk faucet into null sec like everything else. Why would we kill our own cash cow like you suggest? This thread is proof that only some of us favor balance over benefit.
Thats BS. Your just too lazy to do anything about it, I mean you've just answered why there is nothing wrong with HS incursions, the mechanic is there is stop people from farming them and at the same time allow you to get your own piece.
Pretty uneducated troll. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17000
|
Posted - 2015.11.20 23:47:49 -
[1213] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Fastest way to end highsec incursions is NOT to go begging to CCP.
Just pop the mothership when it appears. But that might require having friends and being skilled for more than just ganking defenseless freighters.
Player-based in-game solutions. Gotta love them! Or, we can keep doing what we are doing, running the incursions on alts, freezing out high sec players who might want to do them themselves, and funnel the outrageous isk faucet into null sec like everything else. Why would we kill our own cash cow like you suggest? This thread is proof that only some of us favor balance over benefit. Thats BS. Your just too lazy to do anything about it, I mean you've just answered why there is nothing wrong with HS incursions, the mechanic is there is stop people from farming them and at the same time allow you to get your own piece. Pretty uneducated troll.
Why would we waste time killing the mother ship? As said we will abuse this easy isk ourselves and have nothing to gain from killing the mother ship.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 00:02:15 -
[1214] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Fastest way to end highsec incursions is NOT to go begging to CCP.
Just pop the mothership when it appears. But that might require having friends and being skilled for more than just ganking defenseless freighters.
Player-based in-game solutions. Gotta love them! Or, we can keep doing what we are doing, running the incursions on alts, freezing out high sec players who might want to do them themselves, and funnel the outrageous isk faucet into null sec like everything else. Why would we kill our own cash cow like you suggest? This thread is proof that only some of us favor balance over benefit. Thats BS. Your just too lazy to do anything about it, I mean you've just answered why there is nothing wrong with HS incursions, the mechanic is there is stop people from farming them and at the same time allow you to get your own piece. Pretty uneducated troll. Why would we waste time killing the mother ship? As said we will abuse this easy isk ourselves and have nothing to gain from killing the mother ship.
We'll look forward to seeing you then. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12990
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 00:45:24 -
[1215] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Why would we waste time killing the mother ship? As said we will abuse this easy isk ourselves and have nothing to gain from killing the mother ship.
We'll look forward to seeing you then. ' What do you mean? Were already here lol. I've been running incursions (with a few breaks) for 5 years.
That's what you short sighted folks don't see. Either way, we win. What's being asked for is a better rewards balance, not punishment of people just playing within the rules. |
Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 00:55:21 -
[1216] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Why would we waste time killing the mother ship? As said we will abuse this easy isk ourselves and have nothing to gain from killing the mother ship.
We'll look forward to seeing you then. ' What do you mean? Were already here lol. I've been running incursions (with a few breaks) for 5 years. That's what you short sighted folks don't see. Either way, we win. What's being asked for is a better rewards balance, not punishment of people just playing within the rules.
all 450 people of us. |
Persifonne
The Scope Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 01:06:15 -
[1217] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Why would we waste time killing the mother ship? As said we will abuse this easy isk ourselves and have nothing to gain from killing the mother ship.
We'll look forward to seeing you then. ' What do you mean? Were already here lol. I've been running incursions (with a few breaks) for 5 years. That's what you short sighted folks don't see. Either way, we win. What's being asked for is a better rewards balance, not punishment of people just playing within the rules. all 450 people of us. Correction 295 people by tonights active users. How on earth are you still badgering on about playing within the rules, its a group activity. Haven't you made enough isk from these Plex printing incursions dude? You need to print billions for tge next 5 years too man? Wtf are you bill gates?
Dont ve greedy, just support a medium sized payout nerf and everyone wins. |
AtramLolipop
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 01:13:32 -
[1218] - Quote
Persifonne wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Why would we waste time killing the mother ship? As said we will abuse this easy isk ourselves and have nothing to gain from killing the mother ship.
We'll look forward to seeing you then. ' What do you mean? Were already here lol. I've been running incursions (with a few breaks) for 5 years. That's what you short sighted folks don't see. Either way, we win. What's being asked for is a better rewards balance, not punishment of people just playing within the rules. all 450 people of us. Correction 295 people by tonights active users. How on earth are you still badgering on about playing within the rules, its a group activity. Haven't you made enough isk from these Plex printing incursions dude? You need to print billions for tge next 5 years too man? Wtf are you bill gates? Dont ve greedy, just support a medium sized payout nerf and everyone wins.
Disagree, nothing needs changing |
Persifonne
The Scope Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 01:20:03 -
[1219] - Quote
AtramLolipop wrote:Persifonne wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Why would we waste time killing the mother ship? As said we will abuse this easy isk ourselves and have nothing to gain from killing the mother ship.
We'll look forward to seeing you then. ' What do you mean? Were already here lol. I've been running incursions (with a few breaks) for 5 years. That's what you short sighted folks don't see. Either way, we win. What's being asked for is a better rewards balance, not punishment of people just playing within the rules. all 450 people of us. Correction 295 people by tonights active users. How on earth are you still badgering on about playing within the rules, its a group activity. Haven't you made enough isk from these Plex printing incursions dude? You need to print billions for tge next 5 years too man? Wtf are you bill gates? Dont ve greedy, just support a medium sized payout nerf and everyone wins. Disagree, nothing needs changing Its okay to make a plex over the weekend with basically zero risk of awoxing, wardecs, and suicide ganks in highsec? Thats like crazy isk even if you only do them say 5hrs a weekend. Thats 4 plex a month risk free.
No problem here? |
AtramLolipop
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 02:21:20 -
[1220] - Quote
Persifonne wrote: Its okay to make a plex over the weekend with basically zero risk of awoxing, wardecs, and suicide ganks in highsec? Thats like crazy isk even if you only do them say 5hrs a weekend. Thats 4 plex a month risk free.
No problem here?
Let me correct this:
Zero risk of awoxing Wardecs, and Suicide ganks -> happens regularly.
In 5 hours I've managed 16 poses - solo activity In 5 hours i've cherned 16 lvl 5's - solo activity In 5 hours i've ratted in my carrier - solo activity
A mandatory requirement for that 5 hours is the complete trust of strangers with your ship and a high level of team work. Whilst it its a group activity there is absolutely no problem here. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17000
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 03:03:59 -
[1221] - Quote
AtramLolipop wrote:Persifonne wrote: Its okay to make a plex over the weekend with basically zero risk of awoxing, wardecs, and suicide ganks in highsec? Thats like crazy isk even if you only do them say 5hrs a weekend. Thats 4 plex a month risk free.
No problem here?
Let me correct this: Zero risk of awoxing Wardecs, and Suicide ganks -> happens regularly. In 5 hours I've managed 16 poses - solo activity In 5 hours i've cherned 16 lvl 5's - solo activity In 5 hours i've ratted in my carrier - solo activity A mandatory requirement for that 5 hours is the complete trust of strangers with your ship and a high level of team work. Whilst it its a group activity there is absolutely no problem here.
Why do you feel the need to not just lie, but to lie about things that are so easily disproven?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
360
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 03:11:26 -
[1222] - Quote
Persifonne wrote: Its okay to make a plex over the weekend with basically zero risk of awoxing, wardecs, and suicide ganks in highsec? Thats like crazy isk even if you only do them say 5hrs a weekend. Thats 4 plex a month risk free.
No problem here?
i agree with you its ridicoulous. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
242
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 03:19:43 -
[1223] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:StuRyan wrote:If nullbears actually had the same level of ability and willingness to run them in null sec they would trump isk/hour 3 fold and thats even with the less blingy ships you see in HS. So you think the solution is the whole of nullsec should put aside their differences for the noble goal of farming isk? He probably does think that. Extreme self interest (ie don't nerf this thing i depend on, even if it's terrible) and prejudice (notice the word 'nullbears') causes delusion, and delusion makes unreasonable things (all null should blue up and incursion farm) seem reasonable to people like that lol. Like I been saying, it really doesn't matter what people like that think. Some CCP guys has shown increasing signs of awareness of these issues when we talk to them at player events and such. It took CCP 3+ years to fix the high sec lvl 5 bug (and that was an acutal bug and one they knew about from the start), they'll eventually fix the situation we are discussing here too.
Sometimes fixing "things" ends up not going the way some people (like you) want them to. This problem you are currently describing is the least of "things" that needs fixing in Eve atm. There are tons of other "things" that CCP should be focusing on in Eve right now instead of humoring nullbears desire to nerf hi-sec income into the ground cause they can make close to what they make in null.
Unfortunately there are some individuals that lack the ability to just mind their own friggin business and just enjoy doing their own thing which are the main ones complaining about Hi-Sec income (I'm not naming anyone cause they know who they are).
Self interest?... yes of course it is. Everyone plays Eve for their own reasons and enjoyment. Why is that a bad thing? Jenn, are you any different? If you say you're not then you're either lying or deceiving yourself. |
Paranoid Loyd
7524
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 03:25:02 -
[1224] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Unfortunately there are some individuals that lack the ability to just mind their own friggin business and just enjoy doing their own thing which are the main ones complaining about Hi-Sec income (I'm not naming anyone cause they know who they are). This a pretty narrow opinion. The game is built in such a way that everything has an overall effect, therefore if one truly understands the game, they realize everything is everyone's business.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
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AtramLolipop
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 03:28:47 -
[1225] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:AtramLolipop wrote:Persifonne wrote: Its okay to make a plex over the weekend with basically zero risk of awoxing, wardecs, and suicide ganks in highsec? Thats like crazy isk even if you only do them say 5hrs a weekend. Thats 4 plex a month risk free.
No problem here?
Let me correct this: Zero risk of awoxing Wardecs, and Suicide ganks -> happens regularly. In 5 hours I've managed 16 poses - solo activity In 5 hours i've cherned 16 lvl 5's - solo activity In 5 hours i've ratted in my carrier - solo activity A mandatory requirement for that 5 hours is the complete trust of strangers with your ship and a high level of team work. Whilst it its a group activity there is absolutely no problem here. Why do you feel the need to not just lie, but to lie about things that are so easily disproven?
I'm lying because I've been able to do make isk through solo means for plex in 5 hours? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17000
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 03:43:03 -
[1226] - Quote
AtramLolipop wrote:
I'm lying because I've been able to do make isk through solo means for plex in 5 hours?
Shall we go step by step?
AtramLolipop wrote: Zero risk of awoxing Wardecs, and Suicide ganks -> happens regularly.
Chances of being ganked in a mission boat are the same as being struck by lightning in real life. You are in a fleet with combat capable ships, buffer tanks and with logi support. You aren't getting ganked. Equally you are not going to get wardecs because NPC corps cant be wardeced and nobody will awox these days.
AtramLolipop wrote: A mandatory requirement for that 5 hours is the complete trust of strangers with your ship and a high level of team work. Whilst it its a group activity there is absolutely no problem here.
Ratting in sov null is a group activity spanning hundreds to thousands of other pilots who put in a lot more time and work than any incursion fleet. The fact that the incursion fleet in highsec earns a lot more for far less work and risk is a big problem.
AtramLolipop wrote: In 5 hours I've managed 16 poses - solo activity
Line members don't own moons, we don't get one personal money moon let alone 16. These are alliance assets as it requires an alliance to protect it.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
242
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 03:46:41 -
[1227] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Character assassination, how original Regardless, what I said applies to all nullsec alliances, there's no focus on one specific alliance but it is telling that the biggest ones wont even bother. It's there for the taking but you know, being risk averse is not something exclusive to HS players it seems. It's not null that's dead, it's the people that live there. The stories I've heard of Nullsec Alliances back in the day and what I see in game and on the forums now are so different it's no wonder. Would rather whine to CCP day and night than lift a finger to affect change themselves. Whatever, not even worth the time I'm spending to write this. You honestly think anyone would be able to take a 40 man pve battleship fleet into null without it getting torn apart?
That shouldn't happen if the fleet is in your own Sovereign space, right?
If CCP begins creating Null sec incursions then it shouldn't be a problem running them in your own space. These incursions should be like 10x the size and difficulty of the incursions in hi-sec which should also allow Caps & Supers. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17000
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 03:56:40 -
[1228] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Character assassination, how original Regardless, what I said applies to all nullsec alliances, there's no focus on one specific alliance but it is telling that the biggest ones wont even bother. It's there for the taking but you know, being risk averse is not something exclusive to HS players it seems. It's not null that's dead, it's the people that live there. The stories I've heard of Nullsec Alliances back in the day and what I see in game and on the forums now are so different it's no wonder. Would rather whine to CCP day and night than lift a finger to affect change themselves. Whatever, not even worth the time I'm spending to write this. You honestly think anyone would be able to take a 40 man pve battleship fleet into null without it getting torn apart? That shouldn't happen if the fleet is in your own Sovereign space, right? If CCP begins creating Null sec incursions then it shouldn't be a problem running them in your own space. These incursions should be like 10x the size and difficulty of the incursions in hi-sec which should also allow Caps & Supers.
They pop up in our space once every 1-3 months and are finished as quickly as possible as they cripple jump bridge networks, halt all other pve activity and damage our defences.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
AtramLolipop
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 03:56:53 -
[1229] - Quote
Let's try again because you're far from the truth.
baltec1 wrote:
Chances of being ganked in a mission boat are the same as being struck by lightning in real life. You are in a fleet with combat capable ships, buffer tanks and with logi support. You aren't getting ganked. Equally you are not going to get wardecs because NPC corps cant be wardeced and nobody will awox these days.
dear boy ganking doesn't happen in sites.
baltec1 wrote:
Ratting in sov null is a group activity spanning hundreds to thousands of other pilots who put in a lot more time and work than any incursion fleet. The fact that the incursion fleet in highsec earns a lot more for far less work and risk is a big problem.
Try the fact that with out a solid back bone a HS incursion is useless. Ratting in null sec is very much a solo activity I don't care what you say about time and work, both require effort but ratting is very done solo.
baltec1 wrote:
Line members don't own moons, we don't get one personal money moon let alone 16. These are alliance assets as it requires an alliance to protect it.
You're doing it wrong, that's the most ******** thing i've ever heard. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
243
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 03:59:26 -
[1230] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Character assassination, how original Regardless, what I said applies to all nullsec alliances, there's no focus on one specific alliance but it is telling that the biggest ones wont even bother. It's there for the taking but you know, being risk averse is not something exclusive to HS players it seems. It's not null that's dead, it's the people that live there. The stories I've heard of Nullsec Alliances back in the day and what I see in game and on the forums now are so different it's no wonder. Would rather whine to CCP day and night than lift a finger to affect change themselves. Whatever, not even worth the time I'm spending to write this. You honestly think anyone would be able to take a 40 man pve battleship fleet into null without it getting torn apart? That shouldn't happen if the fleet is in your own Sovereign space, right? If CCP begins creating Null sec incursions then it shouldn't be a problem running them in your own space. These incursions should be like 10x the size and difficulty of the incursions in hi-sec which should also allow Caps & Supers. They pop up in our space once every 1-3 months and are finished as quickly as possible as the cripple jump bridge networks, halt all other pve activity and damage our defences.
Then this is what needs to change. Should be at least 2 mega size incursions in every null region per day. |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12991
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 04:46:27 -
[1231] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:
Sometimes fixing "things" ends up not going the way some people (like you) want them to. This problem you are currently describing is the least of "things" that needs fixing in Eve atm. There are tons of other "things" that CCP should be focusing on in Eve right now instead of humoring nullbears desire to nerf hi-sec income into the ground cause they can make close to what they make in null.
Close? It's not even close. You can test this for yourself. Take a DPS ship you would use for incursions to null. Try to make isk with it. You generally won't get close to half.
Of course, again, yo'd have to be interested in the truth of this matter to expend the effort to test things out for yourself. Very few who defend this measurably broken status quo would be willing to do so (mainly because they already know it's broken).
Quote: Unfortunately there are some individuals that lack the ability to just mind their own friggin business and just enjoy doing their own thing which are the main ones complaining about Hi-Sec income (I'm not naming anyone cause they know who they are).
That's a common thing. Well, it is our business, we play EVE too. And some of us actually care about the PVE scheme in this game, and want to see it work correctly, or are close to correctly as it could. Being able to make more income with a stealth bomber in FW or a logi ship in high sec than you can risking an expensive pve fit ship in null is broken and unbalanced.
If I wer ein to tinfoil I'd proclaim that CCP wants it this way because that makes us have incursions and FW alts...
Quote: Self interest?... yes of course it is. Everyone plays Eve for their own reasons and enjoyment. Why is that a bad thing? Jenn, are you any different? If you say you're not then you're either lying or deceiving yourself.
I'm not the one lying here, I'm the one with all the verifiable facts here (notice that people like you and on your side and linked ZERO counter evidence?).
The problem with the kind of self interest you types are displaying is that it's short sighted. You actually and honestly don't understand that the current combat pve status quo is screwing you in the long run, and that a better rewards balance would alleviate a whole lot of problems. "nullbears" would be in null, high sec ganking might decrease in frequency (not that its a lot now, but much of it is aimed at people moving incursion focuses), new player sin high sec would have an easier time breaking tinto group pve, CONCORD, SOE and other types of LP wouldn't be depressed as they are by null alts farming, the actual isk in all of our wallets might stop resembling Zimbabwe dollars for all they can buy with all this isk being in the game....
..And the big one, a more sensible wealth generation scheme tied to relative danger might even help PLEX prices...
The above is why more than a few of us try to corner a DEV or two at CCP events and talk about this stuff. Because they sure as hell ain't gonna hear the truth on these forums because you people think someone is out to get in your damn imaginary space wallets.
When CCP makes the combat pve rewards scheme make more sense and you people get to see what we were talking about when things get better for all of us, I'm going to link this thread and remind you of your opposition to it.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17001
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 05:00:24 -
[1232] - Quote
AtramLolipop wrote:
dear boy ganking doesn't happen in sites.
Doesn't matter where it happens attacking a vindicator at point blank range in untanked ships is a very bad idea.
AtramLolipop wrote: Try the fact that with out a solid back bone a HS incursion is useless. Ratting in null sec is very much a solo activity I don't care what you say about time and work, both require effort but ratting is very done solo.
Ratting requires infrastructure, which requires sov, which requires you to fight alliances and then you have to protect those ratters and assets. Ratting in sov null is not a solo activity.
AtramLolipop wrote: You're doing it wrong, that's the most ******** thing i've ever heard.
Ok you own a personal money moon. PH have dropped a 150 man proteus fleet with two triage carriers and 15 dreads on it. Good luck protecting it solo.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2721
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 05:03:20 -
[1233] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: I'm not the one lying here, I'm the one with all the verifiable facts here (notice that people like you and on your side and linked ZERO counter evidence?).
Except of course, the fact that you have produced no real numbers, and when challenged on why the numbers you use aren't accurate, you simply come back with personal attacks on me. But hey, can't let real facts get in the way of good political 'facts' can we. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7206
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 07:38:00 -
[1234] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Why would we waste time killing the mother ship? As said we will abuse this easy isk ourselves and have nothing to gain from killing the mother ship.
We'll look forward to seeing you then. ' What do you mean? Were already here lol. I've been running incursions (with a few breaks) for 5 years. That's what you short sighted folks don't see. Either way, we win. What's being asked for is a better rewards balance, not punishment of people just playing within the rules.
First... you're in TEST now? WTF. Don't you have to log in for that?
Second, long ago the shutting out of players from incursions, mainly as a result of a kind of club developing, did cause a protest where fleets formed to pop the motherships.
Anybody want to know how to get the most tears you could ever see? I'm talking "Hey I just put everything I own in my freighter and it got popped in Niarja" level rage?
Form up a fleet to start popping those motherships.
Because when that first incursion protest happened in early 2012, I was in those fleets.
My participation was due mainly to the fact that incursions had become some kind of exclusive club, but I was surrounded by old school tear harvesters in that endeavor. Heck it was an inside job: people who did incursions rebelled against the grain so to speak, and took on the services of Darius III and his crew (loved flying with those guys they had their stuff together) and they were in it for the rage and tears. Made me uncomfortable but hey it's all a game.
Never before that time, and I've been at this since 2006, had I seen such foul language in local. I was born and raised in New York and that's the factory for foul language and even I was impressed. I think the channel "Grief the Bears" is still up - or at least it appears in my chat channel listings but it's always dead.
Yeah I know if CCP can be bullied into ending highsec incursion (good luck bullying Vikings) there will be many basking in the tears of the highsec incursioner, but form a fleet and pop all the moms as they appear and you can shut down all highsec incursions because on several occasions, highsec was incursion free. Then watch the rage flow with all the satisfaction of Emperor Palpatine.
Admittedly, being able to let the mothership just lager in place while farming sites is kind of dumb. Were it up to me, that would have been fixed from day 1.
So, you want to end highsec incursions, pop those moms. Be ready for some first class f**kery.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
55
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 07:53:55 -
[1235] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Why would we waste time killing the mother ship? As said we will abuse this easy isk ourselves and have nothing to gain from killing the mother ship.
We'll look forward to seeing you then. ' What do you mean? Were already here lol. I've been running incursions (with a few breaks) for 5 years. That's what you short sighted folks don't see. Either way, we win. What's being asked for is a better rewards balance, not punishment of people just playing within the rules. First... you're in TEST now? WTF. Don't you have to log in for that? Second, long ago the shutting out of players from incursions, mainly as a result of a kind of club developing, did cause a protest where fleets formed to pop the motherships. Anybody want to know how to get the most tears you could ever see? I'm talking "Hey I just put everything I own in my freighter and it got popped in Niarja" level rage? Form up a fleet to start popping those motherships. Because when that first incursion protest happened in early 2012, I was in those fleets. My participation was due mainly to the fact that incursions had become some kind of exclusive club, but I was surrounded by old school tear harvesters in that endeavor. Heck it was an inside job: people who did incursions rebelled against the grain so to speak, and took on the services of Darius III and his crew (loved flying with those guys they had their stuff together) and they were in it for the rage and tears. Made me uncomfortable but hey it's all a game. Never before that time, and I've been at this since 2006, had I seen such foul language in local. I was born and raised in New York and that's the factory for foul language and even I was impressed. I think the channel "Grief the Bears" is still up - or at least it appears in my chat channel listings but it's always dead. Yeah I know if CCP can be bullied into ending highsec incursion (good luck bullying Vikings) there will be many basking in the tears of the highsec incursioner, but form a fleet and pop all the moms as they appear and you can shut down all highsec incursions because on several occasions, highsec was incursion free. Then watch the rage flow with all the satisfaction of Emperor Palpatine. Admittedly, being able to let the mothership just lager in place while farming sites is kind of dumb. Were it up to me, that would have been fixed from day 1. So, you want to end highsec incursions, pop those moms. Be ready for some first class f**kery. I dont believe you |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
103
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 08:10:57 -
[1236] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Second, long ago the shutting out of players from incursions, mainly as a result of a kind of club developing, did cause a protest where fleets formed to pop the motherships.
Anybody want to know how to get the most tears you could ever see? I'm talking "Hey I just put everything I own in my freighter and it got popped in Niarja" level rage?
Form up a fleet to start popping those motherships.
Because when that first incursion protest happened in early 2012, I was in those fleets.
My participation was due mainly to the fact that incursions had become some kind of exclusive club, but I was surrounded by old school tear harvesters in that endeavor. Heck it was an inside job: people who did incursions rebelled against the grain so to speak, and took on the services of Darius III and his crew (loved flying with those guys they had their stuff together) and they were in it for the rage and tears. Made me uncomfortable but hey it's all a game.
Never before that time, and I've been at this since 2006, had I seen such foul language in local. I was born and raised in New York and that's the factory for foul language and even I was impressed. I think the channel "Grief the Bears" is still up - or at least it appears in my chat channel listings but it's always dead.
Yeah I know if CCP can be bullied into ending highsec incursion (good luck bullying Vikings) there will be many basking in the tears of the highsec incursioner, but form a fleet and pop all the moms as they appear and you can shut down all highsec incursions because on several occasions, highsec was incursion free. Then watch the rage flow with all the satisfaction of Emperor Palpatine.
Admittedly, being able to let the mothership just lager in place while farming sites is kind of dumb. Were it up to me, that would have been fixed from day 1.
So, you want to end highsec incursions, pop those moms. Be ready for some first class f**kery.
A practical solution while waiting for CCP to lower incomes perhaps? If a group were to sit and plan out how to crack a typical incursion fleet's tank and then put that into action by ganking several incursion fleets from each community they would pretty quickly stop flying them. Even 1 ship loss per site would be enough to put people off; if I was an incursion runner and knew a group was out ganking incursion runners I would probably not take out my blingy vindicator and join fleets.
Popping motherships would be a lot easier and cause a similar amount of rage; I remember last year (I think) when TVP was in the middle of some drama and went around popping moms that plenty of people were annoyed. Nobody enjoys moving their battleship around and especially not when the mom will likely die by the time you make it to the new focus. It also means a lot more travelling for incursion runners and more chance for CODE. to do their thing.
A case for more AoE in EvE
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7207
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 08:56:24 -
[1237] - Quote
Kaelynne Rose wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Why would we waste time killing the mother ship? As said we will abuse this easy isk ourselves and have nothing to gain from killing the mother ship.
We'll look forward to seeing you then. ' What do you mean? Were already here lol. I've been running incursions (with a few breaks) for 5 years. That's what you short sighted folks don't see. Either way, we win. What's being asked for is a better rewards balance, not punishment of people just playing within the rules. First... you're in TEST now? WTF. Don't you have to log in for that? Second, long ago the shutting out of players from incursions, mainly as a result of a kind of club developing, did cause a protest where fleets formed to pop the motherships. Anybody want to know how to get the most tears you could ever see? I'm talking "Hey I just put everything I own in my freighter and it got popped in Niarja" level rage? Form up a fleet to start popping those motherships. Because when that first incursion protest happened in early 2012, I was in those fleets. My participation was due mainly to the fact that incursions had become some kind of exclusive club, but I was surrounded by old school tear harvesters in that endeavor. Heck it was an inside job: people who did incursions rebelled against the grain so to speak, and took on the services of Darius III and his crew (loved flying with those guys they had their stuff together) and they were in it for the rage and tears. Made me uncomfortable but hey it's all a game. Never before that time, and I've been at this since 2006, had I seen such foul language in local. I was born and raised in New York and that's the factory for foul language and even I was impressed. I think the channel "Grief the Bears" is still up - or at least it appears in my chat channel listings but it's always dead. Yeah I know if CCP can be bullied into ending highsec incursion (good luck bullying Vikings) there will be many basking in the tears of the highsec incursioner, but form a fleet and pop all the moms as they appear and you can shut down all highsec incursions because on several occasions, highsec was incursion free. Then watch the rage flow with all the satisfaction of Emperor Palpatine. Admittedly, being able to let the mothership just lager in place while farming sites is kind of dumb. Were it up to me, that would have been fixed from day 1. So, you want to end highsec incursions, pop those moms. Be ready for some first class f**kery. I dont believe you
Does not matter what you believe. Reality still works.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
446
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 09:20:22 -
[1238] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:La Rynx wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: And these players are affecting your Eve how??
Don't know. Maybe it makes him envious? Envy has nothing to do with anything (though I know Baltec can speak for himself). Nothing stops us from doing high sec incursions, and many of us (who 'live' in null) have high sec incursion alts. What, do you think we 'envy" our own wallets.? Because that's where a big chunk of that 8 trillion isk per month goes, right to null.Go to ANY high sec incursion community like TVP and ask how many play in null. You will get a LOT of proof. Demonstrating something is broken (so broken it entices us to take part in it, because why not, isk is isk) even though we benefit from it is not envy, it's honesty. High sec people and especially high sec incursion abusers tend to not have honesty in large supply.
EvE is broken... EvE is broken (badly designed) in so many ways. Just watch the shipclasses and their uses (frigatism)
Risk vs Reward is not a Problem.
I get lots of angry answers, because i insist that EvE is a game. An online game with lots of similarities to other online games like WoW. In every open world game (aka sandbox) people like to specialize. In WoW and in EvE, ppl specialize in trading or manufacturing, playing lore and a minority plays PvP.
One reason might be that all ppl have to compete lots in real life, in their spare time, they want to relax and do something less competetive. They might play a GAME.
In EvE lots of PvPlers think they are a special breed, superior to other gamers. Arrogant, ignorant and in result incompetent. PvP is strong in EvE, but still EvE is not a PvP game, it is a sandbox.
Numbers proof, that the most ppl do not PvP. Even those big wars of the big sov holders are not done, because its PvP alone, it is done, because it gets you sov and only on second place for the kills. A game where diplomats work, where are powerblocks, where are real ingame politics. This is Meta game, not luring ppl into teamspeak und make funny of them.
As i said, CCP might remove incursions. Maybe even quite soon? Watching carefully, i can see, that the ppl of CCP try hard to satisfy all kinds of player styles. Caring for PvP and PvE all the same. It would be very much easier for CCP to go for the easy money and satisfy the bigger masses: The PvE masses. They don't!
i personaly get sick of this constant whining that not only but mainly stems from PvPlers. Wanna act tough, but breaking in tears when they do not get enough toys. That would not be that bad either, but what really pisses me of, is their disrespect and their contempt for other players and their playstyles. Those are the guys i dare to tell they have to compensate something from RL. This behavior poisons the game and the forums, no wonder devs prefer to discuss on reddit: Less spite. More distance.
mff...
tl;dr
People play PvP when they want too and there is no way to force them to do otherwise, If you want more PvP, get more PvP Players to join AND play more PvP yourself.
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
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Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
88
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 10:44:22 -
[1239] - Quote
It amuses me these days how Null people who complain about their income per hour neglect to consider many benefits they are receiving.
If you're making that kind of isk per hour then you're probably in a large alliance. You're receiving all kinds of benefits as a result of a lowered income (you choose to have a lower income by being in that alliance).
You're behind a giant wall of blue with nuets being called out long before you'll ever see them. You have full coverage SRP for PVP and depending on the group some PVE. You have the ability to KM whore that sweet titan kill some random member of the alliance managed to tackle. You get to take part in the battles that make the news (not so much anymore though). You have all kinds of advantages as a result of being in that alliance.
WHat you want is everything and to eat it. You want all the positives of being in a mega alliance with free ships but you're not willing to take the lowered income that results from funding such SRPs, OPs and such.
You want that huge isk per hour but you don't want to risk venturing out on your own in null. You're not willing to do the hardwork to lead so you can decide where the corp/alliance income goes. Cause there is a **** ton of income that you're ignoring in null while focusing purely on your personal site income. |
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
18
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 14:03:07 -
[1240] - Quote
Topic Locked for Cleaning
ISD Max Trix
Ensign
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17003
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 14:15:36 -
[1241] - Quote
Kinete Jenius wrote:
If you're making that kind of isk per hour then you're probably in a large alliance. You're receiving all kinds of benefits as a result of a lowered income (you choose to have a lower income by being in that alliance).
.
So you think having an entire alliance working together to improve the space they fought to take and hold should result in lower income than running around in an NPC corp in the safest area of space?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Shailagh
Shield of Mjolnir
109
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 14:18:04 -
[1242] - Quote
Ganking incursion runners is extremely both rare and difficult. You pay more to gank than ship is worth.
But you liars say it is common and not difficult.
SO I AM GIVING 3 PLEX TO CHRIBBA FOR THE FIRST PERSON THAT CAN LINK 6 SUICIDE GANKS DONE TO INCURSION SHIPS IN THE PAST 3 MONTHS.
THATS 2 GANKS A MONTH, LUNK NAME AND TIMER/DATE HERE FOR CONTEST. YOU CAN ALSO EVEMAIL ME AFTER YOU LINK HERE.
YOU BEARS LIKE EASY ISK, THIS IS EASIER THAN YOUR BROKEN INCURSIONS IF GANKS HAPPEN AS FREQUENT AS YOU LIARS SAY.
3 PLEX TO CHRIBBA FOR FIRST PERSON TO LINK 6 SUICIDE GANKS DONE TO INCURSION SHIPS IN THE PAST 3 MONTHS. |
Specia1 K
State War Academy Caldari State
128
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 18:51:33 -
[1243] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Ganking incursion runners is extremely both rare and difficult. You pay more to gank than ship is worth.
But you liars say it is common and not difficult.
SO I AM GIVING 3 PLEX TO CHRIBBA FOR THE FIRST PERSON THAT CAN LINK 6 SUICIDE GANKS DONE TO INCURSION SHIPS IN THE PAST 3 MONTHS.
THATS 2 GANKS A MONTH, LUNK NAME AND TIMER/DATE HERE FOR CONTEST. YOU CAN ALSO EVEMAIL ME AFTER YOU LINK HERE.
YOU BEARS LIKE EASY ISK, THIS IS EASIER THAN YOUR BROKEN INCURSIONS IF GANKS HAPPEN AS FREQUENT AS YOU LIARS SAY.
3 PLEX TO CHRIBBA FOR FIRST PERSON TO LINK 6 SUICIDE GANKS DONE TO INCURSION SHIPS IN THE PAST 3 MONTHS.
Kaelynne Rose wrote: I dont believe you
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ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
19
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 22:26:10 -
[1244] - Quote
I have deleted some posts for violating Rule 3 Ranting and/or Rule 31 Abuse of a member of CCP.
I will leave this thread open for now. Please keep it civil. This thread will be continued to be monitored.
Feel free to review our forum rules here.
ISD Max Trix
Ensign
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 23:54:38 -
[1245] - Quote
Last comment, it's turned into null sec tears again because they think null sec is special and deserves better treatment.
1, You choose to play in null sec, and you do that mainly because you think you can get space rich and/or you are after fights. First and foremost its your choice, no matter what data your provide me don't complain about other aspects of the game because for some reason the picture of null sec you dreamt of isnt what you experience. 2. Contrary to what you are saying null sec isn't the hard ship path you tell, by experience, it's a lot simpler than the picture you paint 3. The largest source of ISK faucet in the game is PVE null sec ratting which is a solo based activity. It's a false economy because you get rewarded by completing the PVE content solo with more PVE content that can be completed solo. Let's not mention that there is no isk sink to this part of the game. 4. Let's not mention the 1000's of moons that are available to null sec dweebs that generate a huge amount of passive ISK. 5. Despite null sec being about fights and huge amounts of PVP content all day every day and this prevents people from completing PVE content, this is far from the truth also.
Now, because a lot of things in null sec require very little maintenance once it's in place, any activity in Eve regardless of where it is, should always pay more. incursions are part of null sec and can be farmed like they are in HS. I don't care what you say about HS being safe, it's been well documented that with the high amount of players in HS, there is a lot more risk because there is a lot more unknowns.
On that note i'm done. Null sec isn't broken because of HS incursions, It's broken because you let it get to this state of stagnation. If you actually let people live in null sec without wanting to absorb them and add them to your collective you might actually get the content you are after.
PS: Because sites spawn in a controlled manner meaning if they are contested the ISK/Hour would be a lot less but that would actually mean organizing your own Hs incursion fleet which is against the grain of a null sec dweeb because unless their homeland is attacked a lot of null sec is solo content. |
unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
156
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 00:12:17 -
[1246] - Quote
1. Whole point of Null is that it should have highest reward due to high risk. EVE online is built on Risk = Reward. High Sec Incursion don't match this ideal.
2. It do take a alliance to set up a good sov. I am fairly sure that 10-15men corp won't able to hold SOV from anyone for long time or have good income.
3. Report said Bounty Payout which including high sec L4 mission and so. Until CCP release breakdown of Bounty Payout. we can't determine if null rat pay more than L4 mission bounty.
4. You are trolling if you think Moon harvest contribute isk faucet. or everyone get their own private moon
5. High sec is more safe than Null, especially if we talk about fleet that has logi back them up. I am dam* sure that my alliance won't last 30 min in goon if we try to do incursion in their space. |
Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 00:45:50 -
[1247] - Quote
unidenify wrote:1. Whole point of Null is that it should have highest reward due to high risk. EVE online is built on Risk = Reward. High Sec Incursion don't match this ideal.
Nope - only risk is if an attacking force wants to move in. You have scouts and intel coming in from all corners of your region. There is very little risk in null sec.
unidenify wrote: 2. It do take a alliance to set up a good sov. I am fairly sure that 10-15men corp won't able to hold SOV from anyone for long time or have good income.
LOL - We held sov in a constellation for a good 6 months made friends and after realising there is more content in HS we moved back.
unidenify wrote: 3. Report said Bounty Payout which including high sec L4 mission and so. Until CCP release breakdown of Bounty Payout. we can't determine if null rat pay more than L4 mission bounty.
They've already done that report last year.
unidenify wrote: 4. You are trolling if you think Moon harvest contribute isk faucet. or everyone get their own private moon
LOL you do realise that you can make a huge amount of passive isk on dead moons? Don't call me a troll because you don't know how to achieve it.
unidenify wrote: 5. High sec is more safe than Null, especially if we talk about fleet that has logi back them up. I am dam* sure that my alliance won't last 30 min in goon if we try to do incursion in their space.
Wrong again, since HS contains the highest proportion of players this also means that there are an infinity amount of unknowns. Not like null sec where an unknown results in the immediate stoppage of activities until the unknown has moved on. |
unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
158
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Posted - 2015.11.22 01:07:25 -
[1248] - Quote
your basis on Null sec being safe due to intel require network of large number of players that is excess 40 that you need for high sec incursion.
second, you assume that I can wander to anywhere in Null and do incursion without worrying about have someone drop me because of intel channel. That is complete wrong.
Again, our intel channel is only good as players that use intel channel. and are limit to where our member are at.
You don't see us to do null sec incursion in null that is home to Goonswarm, or Gorgon Empire.
Where your high sec incursion players have 2 powerful passive defense mechanics in place that don't exist for Null Incursion fleet. NPC corp's wardec immune and Concord. It mean that it require more effort to kill high sec fleet than null sec fleet of same number.
Hilti Enaka wrote: Wrong again, since HS contains the highest proportion of players this also means that there are an infinity amount of unknowns. Not like null sec where an unknown results in the immediate stoppage of activities until the unknown has moved on.
you admit that despite unknown factor, they aren't threatening to your operation because nothing they can really do to harm you. |
Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2015.11.22 01:31:14 -
[1249] - Quote
unidenify wrote:your basis on Null sec being safe due to intel require network of large number of players that is excess 40 that you need for high sec incursion. second, you assume that I can wander to anywhere in Null and do incursion without worrying about have someone drop me because of intel channel. That is complete wrong.
1. LOL - one played cloaked at the start of a pipe or at entrances to regions. 2. all you need to do is wait until one spawns in your region.
unidenify wrote: Again, our intel channel is only good as players that use intel channel. and are limit to where our member are at.
3. But you keep telling me you've worked hard to get your space why neglect it through lazyness.
unidenify wrote: You don't see us to do null sec incursion in null that is home to Goonswarm, or Gorgon Empire.
Wrong again, you used to do them. Infact Goons were the first alliance to get a Rev BPC from popping the MOM.
unidenify wrote: Where your high sec incursion players have 2 powerful passive defense mechanics in place that don't exist for Null Incursion fleet. NPC corp's wardec immune and Concord. It mean that it require more effort to kill high sec fleet than null sec fleet of same number.
Why kill, you could compete...
unidenify wrote: you admit that despite unknown factor, they aren't threatening to your operation because nothing they can really do to harm you.
Actually, Yes there are, everytime you run you are trusting complete strangers not to let your ship get destroyed.
Keep them coming
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17021
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 02:06:27 -
[1250] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:
1, You choose to play in null sec, and you do that mainly because you think you can get space rich and/or you are after fights. First and foremost its your choice, no matter what data your provide me don't complain about other aspects of the game because for some reason the picture of null sec you dreamt of isnt what you experience.
Who is going to move out to the dangerous areas of space that require more investment and effort if you can earn more with near zero investment and risk in the safest areas? The big issue with sov null is a lack of incentives to fight over it.
Hilti Enaka wrote: 2. Contrary to what you are saying null sec isn't the hard ship path you tell, by experience, it's a lot simpler than the picture you paint
Null sov space is a hell of a lot more complicated, expensive to run and risky than anything in highsec.
Hilti Enaka wrote: 3. The largest source of ISK faucet in the game is PVE null sec ratting which is a solo based activity. It's a false economy because you get rewarded by completing the PVE content solo with more PVE content that can be completed solo. Let's not mention that there is no isk sink to this part of the game.
Ah this gem. Largest isk faucet does not equal largest income. The very best income from anoms is 90-100 mil/hr if uninterrupted and if the system is empty of others running sites. This is on par with running level 4 missions in highsec.
Hilti Enaka wrote: 4. Let's not mention the 1000's of moons that are available to null sec dweebs that generate a huge amount of passive ISK.
None of those moons are available to line members, they are alliance assets as it requires alliance level investments to protect them.
Hilti Enaka wrote: 5. Despite null sec being about fights and huge amounts of PVP content all day every day and this prevents people from completing PVE content, this is far from the truth also.
We have by far the most secure space in sov null and get get interruptions from solo and small gangs several times an hour.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
362
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 02:29:13 -
[1251] - Quote
Now that the mechanics have been figured out, and its being farmed, the reward/risk is OP. (i remember the welps one day one of incursions)
A tweak in the mechanics, last "boss" has more health or something, add some more risk, skilled player rewarded, scrubs weeded out. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
248
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 03:09:17 -
[1252] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:
Sometimes fixing "things" ends up not going the way some people (like you) want them to. This problem you are currently describing is the least of "things" that needs fixing in Eve atm. There are tons of other "things" that CCP should be focusing on in Eve right now instead of humoring nullbears desire to nerf hi-sec income into the ground cause they can make close to what they make in null.
Close? It's not even close. You can test this for yourself. Take a DPS ship you would use for incursions to null. Try to make isk with it. You generally won't get close to half. Of course, again, yo'd have to be interested in the truth of this matter to expend the effort to test things out for yourself. Very few who defend this measurably broken status quo would be willing to do so (mainly because they already know it's broken). Quote: Unfortunately there are some individuals that lack the ability to just mind their own friggin business and just enjoy doing their own thing which are the main ones complaining about Hi-Sec income (I'm not naming anyone cause they know who they are).
That's a common thing. Well, it is our business, we play EVE too. And some of us actually care about the PVE scheme in this game, and want to see it work correctly, or are close to correctly as it could. Being able to make more income with a stealth bomber in FW or a logi ship in high sec than you can risking an expensive pve fit ship in null is broken and unbalanced. If I wer ein to tinfoil I'd proclaim that CCP wants it this way because that makes us have incursions and FW alts... Quote: Self interest?... yes of course it is. Everyone plays Eve for their own reasons and enjoyment. Why is that a bad thing? Jenn, are you any different? If you say you're not then you're either lying or deceiving yourself.
I'm not the one lying here, I'm the one with all the verifiable facts here (notice that people like you and on your side and linked ZERO counter evidence?). The problem with the kind of self interest you types are displaying is that it's short sighted. You actually and honestly don't understand that the current combat pve status quo is screwing you in the long run, and that a better rewards balance would alleviate a whole lot of problems. "nullbears" would be in null, high sec ganking might decrease in frequency (not that its a lot now, but much of it is aimed at people moving incursion focuses), new player sin high sec would have an easier time breaking tinto group pve, CONCORD, SOE and other types of LP wouldn't be depressed as they are by null alts farming, the actual isk in all of our wallets might stop resembling Zimbabwe dollars for all they can buy with all this isk being in the game.... ..And the big one, a more sensible wealth generation scheme tied to relative danger might even help PLEX prices... The above is why more than a few of us try to corner a DEV or two at CCP events and talk about this stuff. Because they sure as hell ain't gonna hear the truth on these forums because you people think someone is out to get in your damn imaginary space wallets. When CCP makes the combat pve rewards scheme make more sense and you people get to see what we were talking about when things get better for all of us, I'm going to link this thread and remind you of your opposition to it.
Harassing Devs at CCP events over something like this is going a little overboard don't cha think? I mean it's not really a big issue and if anything I say it's a good thing.
Here is a known list of the most notorious isk faucets in Eve
High Sec--------Incursions----100-150 mill isk per hour per char (requires establishment with a good FC in a good Fleet)
Low Sec---------FW missions in SBs------estimated 100-150 mill isk per hour per char (requires extensive knowledge running FW Lev 4 missions)
Null Sec----------Moon Mining (Unlimited passive isk potential), DEDs/Complexes (varies on drop valuing from 300 to 1 bill isk) and Anomalies (average 80-120 mill isk per hour per char consistently)
Wormholes------C3s in 2 RR Domis (when running sites 140-220 Mill isk per hour), C4s in 2 Rattlesnakes (when running sites 220-300 mill isk per hour), C5s in 2 Marauders (when running sites 300-400 mill isk per hour), Cap Escalations is the biggest isk faucet in the game with the potential to make up to 2 bill isk per hour from what I heard (not my area of expertise)
As you can see here, CCP has isk faucets in all areas of space in New Eden and I believe this is done intentionally because CCP wanted to create diversity by spreading an income stream into all areas of space. This way it prevents everyone from crowding into just 1 or 2 parts of New Eden where all the isk making opportunities lay and to prevent protests from one area space dweller about another making more isk etc etc.....
You can make an argument about how the risk vs reward being too high for Hi-Sec incursions but I believe it's necessary to have a good isk making activity in relative safety in Eve. Why? because it allows players who left Eve for awhile to come back and reestablish their themselves. Once they've made or remade their connections they move on to their thing. If this opportunity isn't available, then a lot of these players won't be able to make a comeback and will just give up altogether.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17022
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Posted - 2015.11.22 04:10:29 -
[1253] - Quote
You keep on mentioning moons yet you know nothing about them.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15205
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 04:24:23 -
[1254] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote: Nope - only risk is if an attacking force wants to move in.
Which is still 100% more risk than exists in highsec. Especially in an incursion site, since you have a horde of logi backing you up.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
248
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 04:56:53 -
[1255] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You keep on mentioning moons yet you know nothing about them.
True, I don't know that much about them since I'm not into mining. But I've gather enough intel about them to know that it does provide nullbears with a very lucrative income stream source not attainable in high or low sec.
And I've only mentioned moon mining once. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17025
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 05:13:42 -
[1256] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:baltec1 wrote:You keep on mentioning moons yet you know nothing about them. True, I don't know that much about them since I'm not into mining. But I've gather enough intel about them to know that it does provide nullbears with a very lucrative income stream source not attainable in high or low sec. And I've only mentioned moon mining once.
You do know their monthly income is around the same as an ice miners right?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40869
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 05:23:47 -
[1257] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:True, I don't know that much about them since I'm not into mining. But I've gather enough intel about them to know that it does provide nullbears with a very lucrative income stream source not attainable in high or low sec. It is attainable in lowsec (some of the biggest fights in lowsec recently have been over money moons.
The difficulty with moon mining as an income source is, it is not an individual source of income. It's Corporation/Alliance level income, so most players don't gain anything from it on a daily basis.
Where they do benefit is from decisions made by their Alliance leadership in relation to how to use the income, but the idea that all null players have access to 100% SRP or somehow regularly benefit from moon income is very inaccurate.
Additionally, not all regions are as valuable as all others (kind of one of those things that's supposed to drive conflict but doesn't effectively) and even within each region, not all constellations provide equal moon income.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
248
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 06:57:36 -
[1258] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:True, I don't know that much about them since I'm not into mining. But I've gather enough intel about them to know that it does provide nullbears with a very lucrative income stream source not attainable in high or low sec. It is attainable in lowsec (some of the biggest fights in lowsec recently have been over money moons. The difficulty with moon mining as an income source is, it is not an individual source of income. It's Corporation/Alliance level income, so most players don't gain anything from it on a daily basis. Where they do benefit is from decisions made by their Alliance leadership in relation to how to use the income, but the idea that all null players have access to 100% SRP or somehow regularly benefit from moon income is very inaccurate. Additionally, not all regions are as valuable as all others (kind of one of those things that's supposed to drive conflict but doesn't effectively) and even within each region, not all constellations provide equal moon income.
I see, then that means that baltec was correct. I didn't realize how clueless I was concerning this. Okay so moon mining doesn't provide one of the richest income stream sources for individual players in null but for only the Alliances. Ty again Scipio for correcting my misconception. This is one of the main reasons why I like Eve, so much to learn and even harder to master what you learn.
So that leaves running anomalies, and DEDs as the most common form of isk making for individual players in null sec? I'm sure I'm clueless about other methods, there's got to be more sources. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40871
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 07:32:58 -
[1259] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I see, then that means that baltec was correct. I didn't realize how clueless I was concerning this. Okay so moon mining doesn't provide one of the richest income stream sources for individual players in null but for only the Alliances It can be very profitable for Corps/Alliances, but that is also quite variable.
Here for example is my mapping of the DS-M4Q constellation in Syndicate:
http://puu.sh/lukzu/9a819319a1.png
There are 4 different Alliances that own moons in the constellation and from the setup of the towers, the profit each month on the raw materials is not even half a PLEX (and that's split across 4 Alliances) from 28 'money' moons.
The 4 large towers make a loss on the basic materials, but are all running reactions, so they probably make up for the loss on running costs, through their simple and complex reactions.
But overall, the income of around 3-4 billion ISK, from 28 moons split between 4 Alliances is pretty low, especially for the effort required to maintain all those towers each month.
While that's NPC Null and one of the poorer constellations, here's another that is quite typical:
http://puu.sh/lukPz/fb5289f432.png
There are 6 Alliances that own the moons in that constellation, making less than 3 Billion ISK per month split across all of the 12 towers (the offline tower in 6-C is making 0 and costing 0, so the figure can be slightly adjusted).
I've mapped the towers for each constellation across quite a few regions, both NPC and sov and the idea of unlimited passive income for most Alliances is very exaggerated. The moons take quite a bit of upkeep in fuel each month, emptying the silos, running reactions, etc. It is passive, but kind of in the same way that PI is passive. The more you want to make out of it, the less passive it is.
Certainly some Alliance make very good profit, just from raw materials, but most Alliances based on the data I have, are only making a very small amount from moons, which may also partly explain why SRP and other programs are in the minority.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
248
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 09:44:35 -
[1260] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Okay so moon mining doesn't provide one of the richest income stream sources for individual players in null but for only the Alliances It can be very profitable for Corps/Alliances, but that is also quite variable. Here for example is my mapping of the DS-M4Q constellation in Syndicate: http://puu.sh/lukzu/9a819319a1.png There are 4 different Alliances that own moons in the constellation and from the setup of the towers, the profit each month on the raw materials is roughly half a PLEX (and that's split across 4 Alliances) from 28 'money' moons. The 4 large towers make a loss on the basic materials, but are all running reactions, so they probably make up for the loss on running costs, through their simple and complex reactions. But overall, the income of around 3-4 billion ISK, from 28 moons split between 4 Alliances is pretty low, especially for the effort required to maintain all those towers each month. While that's one of the poorer constellations, here's another that is quite typical: http://puu.sh/lukPz/fb5289f432.png There are 6 Alliances that own the moons in that constellation, making less than 3 Billion ISK per month split across all of the 12 towers (the offline tower in 6-C is making 0 and costing 0, so the figure can be slightly adjusted). I've mapped the towers for each constellation across quite a few regions, both NPC and sov and the idea of unlimited passive income for most Alliances is very exaggerated. The moons take quite a bit of upkeep in fuel each month, emptying the silos, running reactions, etc. It is passive, but kind of in the same way that PI is passive. The more you want to make out of it, the less passive it is. None of the values in that spreadsheet include the costs of hauling fuels in and products out to market and they don't take into account the value of the effort needed to maintain it all. Certainly some Alliance make very good profit, just from raw materials, but most Alliances based on the data I have, are only making a very small amount from moons, which may also partly explain why SRP and other programs are in the minority. For comparison to something more valuable, here's another Syndicate constellation that is much better (also 6 Alliances split between those moons): http://puu.sh/lulYc/b4975a0f63.png While that's all NPC data (since I don't think it would be right to publish the sov data I have), sov is similar in many regions. *All costs and prices are eve-central marketdata values for Jita 4-4
Excellent post!
A wealth of knowledge to be gained here about moon mining and also clears up some of the misconceptions some players may have had (I know I wasn't the only one) about their true income producing potential. I was totally unimpressed from the first 2 spreadsheet figures and was starting to wonder if it was really worth all that effort for so little income. And then when I saw that last spreadsheet, I was like "now that is more like it". I can see wars being fought over that last constellation and the like. And I'm sure the ones in Sov space are much more lucrative once the Sov upgrades are added.
One thing I do realize is that individual players do not have control over this income which to me is a major turnoff. I really like being in control of my own income stream source which is the main reason I haven't joined a player corp and remained in Hi-Sec & WH space. Low sec has lev 5 missions and FW so I'll be venturing there soon, but no plans whatsoever for going into null sec (boot licking just isn't my cup of tea). |
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40874
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Posted - 2015.11.22 10:33:51 -
[1261] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I can see wars being fought over that last constellation and the like. And I'm sure the ones in Sov space are much more lucrative once the Sov upgrades are added. Sov upgrades don't affect moon output, so the moon income is independent of who owns sov or whether there is an IHUB installed.
Moon income is fixed at 100 units of a resource per hour, with value added on top of the raw materials through reactions to eventually produce T2 materials. No amount of sov upgrade or time holding sov affects those moon resources.
So as far as moon income goes, some sov constellations are no more valuable than some lowsec constellations (and many are lower in value) and the conflict driver should come from different regions offering more value than some other regions, but it's still quite variable overall.
For individual Alliance members the biggest impact on their individual income is through IHUB upgrades that ensure a constant flow of anomolies as outlined in this devblog:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/summer-of-sov-nullsec-pve-and-upgrades/
Of those, the pirate detection array is the most relevant.
On top of that, for miners, the recent mineral rebalance had the desired effect in terms of value for each regions asteroid belts:
http://puu.sh/luqCQ/10158d9b17.png
However, even within sov space, not all constellations provide G6 or G7 (lowest true sec) systems that offer good asteroids to mine. In many cases, constellations are no more valuable than what you find in lowsec for mining.
Delve is a good example of that:
http://puu.sh/lur3G/8f4e81f8eb.png
The two constellations highlighted there offer very different opportunities for mining and it's no wonder that the constellation centred around NOL-M9 is not owned currently, since it has through traffic and terrible mining opportunities.
Whereas the other constellation highlighted has one G7 security system with valuable ores and two systems with ice to help fuel jump freighters and POSs.
I think this is where a lot of issues come for individual line members in sov, especially under the Aegis Sov mechanics.
In Regions owned by mega Alliances and Coalitions, it might be relatively easy to move between systems with jump bridges and even using gates.
However, in Aegis Sov, which is supposed to encourage small Alliances to take space (Delve is a good example of that occurring) small Alliances might be able to take and hold a constellation or two. But what value are they able to derive from that, especially on an individual level?
It's not an easy question to answer and we always tend to over simplify the issue here in the forum. The common argument is that all sov holding Alliances are making mega ISK off moons and the members are rolling in good asteroids and the ability to print ISK.
But it just isn't the case since there is a lot of variation within regions. In an ideal New Eden, that would all drive conflict and Alliances would fight over the valuable constellations in order to provide maximum benefit to their members.
But, why bother when alts can farm ISK in other areas for less risk?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
104
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 11:28:51 -
[1262] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:However, in Aegis Sov, which is supposed to encourage small Alliances to take space (Delve is a good example of that occurring) small Alliances might be able to take and hold a constellation or two. But what value are they able to derive from that, especially on an individual level?
A few great posts Scipio with a lot of good links and numbers thrown in for the unbelievers and I agree with just about everything you've said regarding null income. You raise a good point here too that with Aegis sov encouraging smaller groups maybe it would be possible to make single constellations more valuable to hold however a word of caution.
CCP has to be careful where they distribute valuable moons so that they can't all be grabbed up by a single entity. Look at goons right now: they hold the best space, own the best moons, earn the most income, have the best ships, which all encourages more people to join the winning side making things eve more one sided. Income should be spread out so that different small groups fight over the different pockets of wealth.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 12:05:59 -
[1263] - Quote
Amazing.
Once again, complete ignorance.
You do realise you can cap a dead moon and make lots of isk doing so?
It is not your fault that your alliance leadership stops you frrom doing so.
Alliance leadership cares for moons that have raw material to mine because that is by far the easiest way to make huge amounts of passive isk. BUT you are still ignoring the fact that you can make ISK on dead moons.
"all of the maintenance" LOL - fuel it and turn off a couple of silos to empty. Such hard work.
Don't try and tell me i'm wrong, I manage 16 poses and spend no less than 5 hours a week "managing" them. It took a few more to set them up but as for the "oh having these towers is such hard work" argument. -> exit door is that way. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12995
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 12:19:58 -
[1264] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:
But, why bother when alts can farm ISK in other areas for less risk?
Very nicely put together post Scipio. And the obvious answer to the last question is "you don't" lol.
But it's all moot. The issue isn't null sec income (which is mostly fine btw, the problems there are scaleability and afk-ability). It's the other broken aspects of combat pve across other parts of EVE. only wormhole space (maximum isk, maximum risk) works correctly. High Sec is too good because of mission blitzing, burner mission super-blitzing, some badly thought out LP stores and Incursions. Low sec is mostly fine except FW because CCP over buffed FW missions to hell and back. NPC null is ok because you can get high end exploration content AND those excellent pirate agents.
The incursion defenders talking about null income are trying to divert people from the real problem. They are afraid their unbalanced cash cow is going to dry up (while simultaneously not understanding the incursions are really NULL SEC's cash cow, I bet if someone like CCP Quant could track it, a hefty chunk of that 8 trill per month ends up going into null character coffers).
But no matter how they try to rationalize it, they can't deny the fact that CCPs statistics guy publicly expressed surprise (and dismay) at the numbers he published. The fact that he mentioned the fact that his numbers don't take into account LP gains was icing on the cake. There mad scramble in this thread to deny their is a problem just demonstrates their anxiety.
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Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 12:25:07 -
[1265] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
But, why bother when alts can farm ISK in other areas for less risk?
Very nicely put together post Scipio. And the obvious answer to the last question is "you don't" lol. But it's all moot. The issue isn't null sec income (which is mostly fine btw, the problems there are scaleability and afk-ability). It's the other broken aspects of combat pve across other parts of EVE. only wormhole space (maximum isk, maximum risk) works correctly. High Sec is too good because of mission blitzing, burner mission super-blitzing, some badly thought out LP stores and Incursions. Low sec is mostly fine except FW because CCP over buffed FW missions to hell and back. NPC null is ok because you can get high end exploration content AND those excellent pirate agents. The incursion defenders talking about null income are trying to divert people from the real problem. They are afraid their unbalanced cash cow is going to dry up (while simultaneously not understanding the incursions are really NULL SEC's cash cow, I bet if someone like CCP Quant could track it, a hefty chunk of that 8 trill per month ends up going into null character coffers). But no matter how they try to rationalize it, they can't deny the fact that CCPs statistics guy publicly expressed surprise (and dismay) at the numbers he published. The fact that he mentioned the fact that his numbers don't take into account LP gains was icing on the cake. There mad scramble in this thread to deny their is a problem just demonstrates their anxiety.
But why play in null sec if it is so bad. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40876
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 12:43:02 -
[1266] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:"all of the maintenance" LOL - fuel it and turn off a couple of silos to empty. Such hard work.
Don't try and tell me i'm wrong, I manage 16 poses and spend no less than 5 hours a week "managing" them. It took a few more to set them up but as for the "oh having these towers is such hard work" argument. -> exit door is that way. Don't get me wrong, I didn't say they are hard to maintain.
For the 5 hours that you spend maintaining moons, other people are off doing things that are fun. That's 5 hours out of your game time doing little more than moving stuff around, which for a lot of players isn't fun and it's not what they play the game to do.
The process of 'fuel it and turn off a couple of silos', isn't difficult. It isn't instantaneous either. Fuels and products need to be transported. That takes time and isn't very engaging gameplay.
I totally agree with you that it isn't hard. It's still maintenance though, which is all I said.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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zelalot
OMB Corp
5
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 12:44:01 -
[1267] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:Last comment, it's turned into null sec tears again because they think null sec is special and deserves better treatment.
1, You choose to play in null sec, and you do that mainly because you think you can get space rich and/or you are after fights. First and foremost its your choice, no matter what data your provide me don't complain about other aspects of the game because for some reason the picture of null sec you dreamt of isnt what you experience. 2. Contrary to what you are saying null sec isn't the hard ship path you tell, by experience, it's a lot simpler than the picture you paint 3. The largest source of ISK faucet in the game is PVE null sec ratting which is a solo based activity. It's a false economy because you get rewarded by completing the PVE content solo with more PVE content that can be completed solo. Let's not mention that there is no isk sink to this part of the game. 4. Let's not mention the 1000's of moons that are available to null sec dweebs that generate a huge amount of passive ISK. 5. Despite null sec being about fights and huge amounts of PVP content all day every day and this prevents people from completing PVE content, this is far from the truth also.
Now, because a lot of things in null sec require very little maintenance once it's in place, any activity in Eve regardless of where it is, should always pay more. incursions are part of null sec and can be farmed like they are in HS. I don't care what you say about HS being safe, it's been well documented that with the high amount of players in HS, there is a lot more risk because there is a lot more unknowns.
On that note i'm done. Null sec isn't broken because of HS incursions, It's broken because you let it get to this state of stagnation. If you actually let people live in null sec without wanting to absorb them and add them to your collective you might actually get the content you are after.
PS: Because sites spawn in a controlled manner in incrusions if you really do feel insulted that a small number of well organised people make more isk than you do (mainly because your lazy), anyone in HS can run incursions and if more people were bold enough to take on the task of organizing their own fleet the isk/hour would decrease. Finally lets not mention you do have an opportunity to make more isk than a HS incursion runner by running the incursions that mobilze in null sec with your own fleet. Apparently, you already work well together to look after space so that shouldn't be too difficult for you....
This yes 100 times.
Didn't CCP change force projection recently making null sec even more safer...
RISK vs REWARD "we live in null sec so risk is much higher than any other part of the game" has become so diminished over the years that it's not even close to what it was. Pre 2012 there was an argument but as null sec as become more friendlier to live in as well as the changes to mechanics it's a lot less riskier in null sec. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17030
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 12:46:41 -
[1268] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:Amazing.
Once again, complete ignorance.
You do realise you can cap a dead moon and make lots of isk doing so?
It is not your fault that your alliance leadership stops you frrom doing so.
Alliance leadership cares for moons that have raw material to mine because that is by far the easiest way to make huge amounts of passive isk. BUT you are still ignoring the fact that you can make ISK on dead moons.
"all of the maintenance" LOL - fuel it and turn off a couple of silos to empty. Such hard work.
Don't try and tell me i'm wrong, I manage 16 poses and spend no less than 5 hours a week "managing" them. It took a few more to set them up but as for the "oh having these towers is such hard work" argument. -> exit door is that way.
You are very wrong and frankly a liar, if you did own those POS you would know their income amount to the same as a highsec ice miner. You also ignore the fact that these assets need protecting by the alliance as you cannot possibly protect them solo.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40876
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 12:53:54 -
[1269] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:But why play in null sec if it is so bad then. With all the changes to force projection null sec couldnt be even more safer than it was 1 year ago. Who said it was bad?
There are many players that will never leave highsec. Highsec is perfect for them and that is a completely valid choice. They should have the opportunity to have engaging play that attracts them.
Equally, there are others that prefer lowsec mechanics, which is perfectly fine for them also.
As well, there are players that like nullsec.
Each space offers different mechanics and each is going to attract a different type of player. All of them are good in their own way.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40877
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 13:08:50 -
[1270] - Quote
zelalot wrote:RISK vs REWARD "we live in null sec so risk is much higher than any other part of the game" has become so diminished over the years that it's not even close to what it was. Pre 2012 there was an argument but as null sec has become more friendlier to live in as well as the changes to mechanics, it's a lot less riskier in null sec. I think in these arguments there's some confusion between the hazards that are present and management of the risk that this creates.
Nullsec and wormhole space provide the greatest freedom to players of any space. No sentry gun activity, no crime watch mechanics, no CONCORD, bubbles, etc.
That freedom means that nullsec and wormhole space present more hazards than lowsec or highsec. As it should be. Hazard being the potential for harm (in game terms), using the definition used within safety systems.
What risk those hazards represent is then a function of likelihood and consequence.
How likely someone is to lose a ship and what is the consequence of that are, determine the risk someone faces.
As a result, just as in lowsec and also in highsec (as all space offers its unique risks), the final level of risk depends on what methods players have developed to manage their risks so they are as low as possible.
So if the argument is that nullsec is not risky, then that's a credit to the players in nullsec, who are managing their risks effectively.
The hazards don't change though. Nullsec and wormhole space present more hazards than lowsec, which presents more hazards than highsec. That's the way it should be in my view.
The balance then comes down to these arguments we always have about whether the effort required to manage risk in nullsec is worth it compared to the measures required to manage risk in other security spaces.
Hell will freeze over before everyone agrees on where that balance should be.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
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Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 13:55:55 -
[1271] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:Amazing.
Once again, complete ignorance.
You do realise you can cap a dead moon and make lots of isk doing so?
It is not your fault that your alliance leadership stops you frrom doing so.
Alliance leadership cares for moons that have raw material to mine because that is by far the easiest way to make huge amounts of passive isk. BUT you are still ignoring the fact that you can make ISK on dead moons.
"all of the maintenance" LOL - fuel it and turn off a couple of silos to empty. Such hard work.
Don't try and tell me i'm wrong, I manage 16 poses and spend no less than 5 hours a week "managing" them. It took a few more to set them up but as for the "oh having these towers is such hard work" argument. -> exit door is that way. You are very wrong and frankly a liar, if you did own those POS you would know their income amount to the same as a highsec ice miner. You also ignore the fact that these assets need protecting by the alliance as you cannot possibly protect them solo.
I'd like to introduce you to a little app.
http://postimg.org/image/npbs0qix7/
PS: They only need defending if they are attacked. POS's, unless anchored in a remote location making them easy targets, will not be hit. |
Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 14:17:00 -
[1272] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:zelalot wrote:RISK vs REWARD "we live in null sec so risk is much higher than any other part of the game" has become so diminished over the years that it's not even close to what it was. Pre 2012 there was an argument but as null sec has become more friendlier to live in as well as the changes to mechanics, it's a lot less riskier in null sec. I think in these arguments there's some confusion between the hazards that are present and management of the risk that this creates. Nullsec and wormhole space provide the greatest freedom to players of any space. No sentry gun activity, no crime watch mechanics, no CONCORD, bubbles, etc. That freedom means that nullsec and wormhole space present more hazards than lowsec or highsec. As it should be. Hazard being the potential for harm (in game terms), using the definition used within safety systems. What risk those hazards represent is then a function of likelihood and consequence. How likely someone is to lose a ship and what is the consequence of that are, determine the risk someone faces. If a risk is too high, then it can be reduced by managing the likelihood of loss (eg. intel channels to provide early warning and more time to react) or consequence (eg. flying less bling). As a result, just as in lowsec and also in highsec (as all space offers its unique risks), the final level of risk depends on what methods players have developed to manage their risks so they are as low as possible. So if the argument is that nullsec is not risky, then that's a credit to the players in nullsec, who are managing their risks effectively (or to any other players anywhere that manage their risk effectively). The hazards don't change though. Nullsec and wormhole space present more hazards than lowsec, which presents more hazards than highsec. That's the way it should be in my view. The balance then comes down to these arguments we always have about whether the effort required to manage risk in nullsec is worth it compared to the measures required to manage risk in other security spaces. Hell will freeze over before everyone agrees on where that balance should be.
Reading Zelalots POV and yours makes it easier for me to argue my point of view, one that I have built up through playing the game for 7 years in null sec.
You are right there are more hazards available in null sec. BUT as you rightly put they can be managed effectively, and may I add they can be managed effectively with very little effort. There might not be as many hazards in HS but the threat is still there and how do you expect to manage a threat you cannot predict. Much of null sec has become dull boring and predictable making said hazards easily managed.
This is why I will also point out that HS incursions are a group activity and a huge amount of trust is needed with members of any fleet.
If living in null sec required space to be constantly defended from gorilla fleets able to wreck and bring havoc and damage to a null sec home, BTW this is what null sec paints itself on, I would entertain the idea of Risk vs Reward . At the moment though the only time assets and space come under threat is if a entity wants to take it. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
248
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 14:40:33 -
[1273] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:I can see wars being fought over that last constellation and the like. And I'm sure the ones in Sov space are much more lucrative once the Sov upgrades are added. Sov upgrades don't affect moon output, so the moon income is independent of who owns sov or whether there is an IHUB installed. Moon income is fixed at 100 units of a resource per hour, with value added on top of the raw materials through reactions to eventually produce T2 materials. No amount of sov upgrade or time holding sov affects those moon resources. So as far as moon income goes, some sov constellations are no more valuable than some lowsec constellations (and many are lower in value) and the conflict driver should come from different regions offering more value than some other regions, but it's still quite variable overall. For individual Alliance members the biggest impact on their income is IHUB upgrades that ensure a constant flow of anomolies as outlined in this devblog: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/summer-of-sov-nullsec-pve-and-upgrades/ Of those, the pirate detection array is the most relevant and where players can rat in nullsec in relative peace, the amount of ratting is huge as the Dotlan stats show: http://puu.sh/lurVb/a34081506c.png That's around 1700 rats killed every hour in 2-84WC for the last 24 hours, which is just enormous. However, as soon as conflict comes to a region, ratting drops. Here's a comparison of a relatively quiet system in Insmother: http://puu.sh/lus5p/f4c6436331.png Less than 200 rats killed in the last 24 hours and not even a lot of pvp, just a lot of traffic moving through the system which means ratters can't rat freely and can't earn ISK. On the mining side, the recent mineral rebalance had the desired effect in terms of value for each regions asteroid belts: http://puu.sh/luqCQ/10158d9b17.png However, even within sov space, not all constellations provide G6 or G7 (lowest true sec) systems that offer good asteroids to mine. In many cases, constellations are no more valuable than what you find in lowsec for mining. Delve is a good example of that: http://puu.sh/lur3G/8f4e81f8eb.png The two constellations highlighted there offer very different opportunities for mining and it's no wonder that the constellation centred around NOL-M9 is not owned currently, since it has through traffic and terrible mining opportunities. Whereas the other constellation highlighted has one G7 security system with valuable ores and two systems with ice to help fuel jump freighters and POSs. I think this is where a lot of issues come for individual line members in sov, especially under the Aegis Sov mechanics. In Regions owned by mega Alliances and Coalitions, it might be relatively easy to move between systems with jump bridges and even using gates. However, in Aegis Sov, which is supposed to encourage small Alliances to take space (Delve is a good example of that occurring) they might be able to take and hold a constellation or two. But what value are they able to derive from that, especially on an individual level? It's not an easy question to answer and we always tend to over simplify the issue here in the forum. The common argument is that all sov holding Alliances are making mega ISK off moons and the members are rolling in good asteroids and the ability to print ISK. But it just isn't the case since there is a lot of variation within regions. In an ideal New Eden, that would all drive conflict and Alliances would fight over the valuable constellations in order to provide maximum benefit to their members. But, why bother when alts can farm ISK in other areas for less risk?
My data on moon mining economy in null/low sec has been updated thanks to you. Just how did you learn such vast knowledge in such a short time span or is your main much older?
Also, is it true you can earn great isk on dead moons?
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40881
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 15:17:23 -
[1274] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Also, is it true you can earn great isk on dead moons? I don't use the term Dead Moon, so I assume Hilti was referring to R08 moons. If I'm wrong on that, then my apology in advance.
If running reactions then yes it is possible. Without running full figures for the input costs vs the final income I can't say right now what setups are the most profitable, but if you look at the information Steve Ronuken (from CSM) has on his website, you can see what reactions are profitable currently:
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/reactions/
So if you can setup a POS to mine some resources and buy others, or run multiple moons, it comes down to doing the calculations up front and then getting the setup right with the POS and reactions.
Here's an old thread with some additional information:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=274840
It's one of those things that seems to be one of the dark arts of Eve, but once you find what works, it can be very profitable.
Where it is not an individual ISK source for most players again comes down to POS operations being a Corporation level activity. To erect a POS and modules, etc. requires roles to be given, so for a lot of Corporations/Alliances there are security risks in that approach, as the ability to manage POSs is also an ability to take all the POSs and modules. Alt Corps that are set blue is easier in my view (but that's just the approach we use and others might have different views on that).
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Josef Djugashvilis
3092
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 15:23:31 -
[1275] - Quote
OP should have stopped at 'end hi-sec' whiich is what a very vocal tiny minority really want.
This is not a signature.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17030
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 15:33:49 -
[1276] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:I'd like to introduce you to a little app. http://postimg.org/image/npbs0qix7/ PS: They only need defending if they are attacked. POS's, unless anchored in a remote location making them easy targets, will not be hit.
POS's under our control are getting hit day after day. Again, feel free to tell me how you are going to defend your pos solo in null.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12995
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 18:04:34 -
[1277] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
But, why bother when alts can farm ISK in other areas for less risk?
Very nicely put together post Scipio. And the obvious answer to the last question is "you don't" lol. But it's all moot. The issue isn't null sec income (which is mostly fine btw, the problems there are scaleability and afk-ability). It's the other broken aspects of combat pve across other parts of EVE. only wormhole space (maximum isk, maximum risk) works correctly. High Sec is too good because of mission blitzing, burner mission super-blitzing, some badly thought out LP stores and Incursions. Low sec is mostly fine except FW because CCP over buffed FW missions to hell and back. NPC null is ok because you can get high end exploration content AND those excellent pirate agents. The incursion defenders talking about null income are trying to divert people from the real problem. They are afraid their unbalanced cash cow is going to dry up (while simultaneously not understanding the incursions are really NULL SEC's cash cow, I bet if someone like CCP Quant could track it, a hefty chunk of that 8 trill per month ends up going into null character coffers). But no matter how they try to rationalize it, they can't deny the fact that CCPs statistics guy publicly expressed surprise (and dismay) at the numbers he published. The fact that he mentioned the fact that his numbers don't take into account LP gains was icing on the cake. There mad scramble in this thread to deny their is a problem just demonstrates their anxiety. But why play in null sec if it is so bad then. With all the changes to force projection null sec couldnt be even more safer than it was 1 year ago.
Null sec income isn't bad. I litteraly just said that. The things that are bad are the things I described.
This is why no one is asking for a buff for null. if it were just a matter of income or "man I hate the isk in those high sec guys wallets, CCP should nerf them because I don't like them having money", people like me would be here saying "CCP just give us more isk"
But more isk, more wealth faucets, this hurts the game because it devalues everything. Only a super selfish person would think that's a good idea. This is also why CCP "Tribute" plan is horribly bad (I have 11 characters, I'm going to demonstrate that badness to CCP as soon as they implement this 'daily quest' BS).
Fixing the actual problems (FW missions, HS Incursions, the AFK-ability of null amons, high sec missions blitzing, low sec lvl 5 carrier blitzing and a couple more things) fixes the situation would breaking anything.
But the "entrenched interests" don't want to hear that. Their personal ingame wallets are much more important to them than a combat pve risk/reward balance that makes sense and supports good in game outcomes for all of us (even them). It's no different from real life where people are willing to turn a blind eye to fixable problems not because they honestly disagree, but because they (usually wrongly) think those fixes are going to somehow leave them worse off financially.
This discussion proves that short sightedness is a universal aspect of people. What I find particularly irritating is that most of the people defending the current imbalance aren't PVE players, they are PVPrs who found a PLEX laying golden goose (high sec incursions) and don't really give a flip about these issues beyond that. I'm a professional combat pve player and the current balance sucks,
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Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 22:12:59 -
[1278] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:I'd like to introduce you to a little app. http://postimg.org/image/npbs0qix7/ PS: They only need defending if they are attacked. POS's, unless anchored in a remote location making them easy targets, will not be hit. POS's under our control are getting hit day after day. Again, feel free to tell me how you are going to defend your pos solo in null.
Unfortunately that's because you are part of one of the biggest cancers in the game. Join another alliance and move to other parts of null sec is self wealth is what you are after. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17032
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 22:24:10 -
[1279] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:
Unfortunately that's because you are part of one of the biggest cancers in the game. Join another alliance and move to other parts of null sec is self wealth is what you are after.
All of which suffer the same attacks on their POS networks.
Once again, feel free to tell us how you intend to defend your POS solo in null.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5533
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 23:01:36 -
[1280] - Quote
There'd be nothing wrong with incursions if they stopped paying liquid ISK in highsec and just paid CONCORD LP; possibly larger numbers than now.
If only a few did them, the LP would become very valuable. If more did them, the LP would fall. Incursion runners would want to find ways to sabotage each other.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Doc J
Assisted Homicide
18
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 23:16:54 -
[1281] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:
Unfortunately that's because you are part of one of the biggest cancers in the game. Join another alliance and move to other parts of null sec is self wealth is what you are after.
All of which suffer the same attacks on their POS networks. Once again, feel free to tell us how you intend to defend your POS solo in null.
Solo in null....WTF are you talking about? Living in sov null solo is near impossible. What is possible is for your private moons, in the rare occassion they get hit, are shared with alliance mates for when they come out of Ref. Lets be honest though, if you can get a fight on your door step people don't care who owns the moon if its going to produce content. |
Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 23:26:25 -
[1282] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Null sec income isn't bad. I litteraly just said that. The things that are bad are the things I described.
This is why no one is asking for a buff for null. if it were just a matter of income or "man I hate the isk in those high sec guys wallets, CCP should nerf them because I don't like them having money", people like me would be here saying "CCP just give us more isk"
But more isk, more wealth faucets, this hurts the game because it devalues everything. Only a super selfish person would think that's a good idea. This is also why CCP "Tribute" plan is horribly bad (I have 11 characters, I'm going to demonstrate that badness to CCP as soon as they implement this 'daily quest' BS).
Fixing the actual problems (FW missions, HS Incursions, the AFK-ability of null amons, high sec missions blitzing, low sec lvl 5 carrier blitzing and a couple more things) fixes the situation would breaking anything.
But the "entrenched interests" don't want to hear that. Their personal ingame wallets are much more important to them than a combat pve risk/reward balance that makes sense and supports good in game outcomes for all of us (even them). It's no different from real life where people are willing to turn a blind eye to fixable problems not because they honestly disagree, but because they (usually wrongly) think those fixes are going to somehow leave them worse off financially.
This discussion proves that short sightedness is a universal aspect of people. What I find particularly irritating is that most of the people defending the current imbalance aren't PVE players, they are PVPrs who found a PLEX laying golden goose (high sec incursions) and don't really give a flip about these issues beyond that. I'm a professional combat pve player and the current balance sucks,
Please explain what exactly the problem is because the glasses I wear paint a pretty straight forward picture of what really the problem is, if any. |
Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 23:28:44 -
[1283] - Quote
Doc J wrote:baltec1 wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:
Unfortunately that's because you are part of one of the biggest cancers in the game. Join another alliance and move to other parts of null sec is self wealth is what you are after.
All of which suffer the same attacks on their POS networks. Once again, feel free to tell us how you intend to defend your POS solo in null. Solo in null....WTF are you talking about? Living in sov null solo is near impossible. What is possible is for your private moons, in the rare occassion they get hit, are shared with alliance mates for when they come out of Ref. Lets be honest though, if you can get a fight on your door step people don't care who owns the moon if its going to produce content.
You mean if they can't get a defense fleet up to protect assets in their own region, they shouldn't be in that space in the first place. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12998
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 00:11:40 -
[1284] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Null sec income isn't bad. I litteraly just said that. The things that are bad are the things I described.
This is why no one is asking for a buff for null. if it were just a matter of income or "man I hate the isk in those high sec guys wallets, CCP should nerf them because I don't like them having money", people like me would be here saying "CCP just give us more isk"
But more isk, more wealth faucets, this hurts the game because it devalues everything. Only a super selfish person would think that's a good idea. This is also why CCP "Tribute" plan is horribly bad (I have 11 characters, I'm going to demonstrate that badness to CCP as soon as they implement this 'daily quest' BS).
Fixing the actual problems (FW missions, HS Incursions, the AFK-ability of null amons, high sec missions blitzing, low sec lvl 5 carrier blitzing and a couple more things) fixes the situation would breaking anything.
But the "entrenched interests" don't want to hear that. Their personal ingame wallets are much more important to them than a combat pve risk/reward balance that makes sense and supports good in game outcomes for all of us (even them). It's no different from real life where people are willing to turn a blind eye to fixable problems not because they honestly disagree, but because they (usually wrongly) think those fixes are going to somehow leave them worse off financially.
This discussion proves that short sightedness is a universal aspect of people. What I find particularly irritating is that most of the people defending the current imbalance aren't PVE players, they are PVPrs who found a PLEX laying golden goose (high sec incursions) and don't really give a flip about these issues beyond that. I'm a professional combat pve player and the current balance sucks,
Please explain what exactly the problem is because the glasses I wear paint a pretty straight forward picture of what really the problem is, if any.
The problem has been has been discussed time and time again. High Sec has blitzable missions (no including burners, see Anize Onamara's guide) and the incursions in high sec are unbalanced (unlike the low/null versions which are balanced by no CONCORD response and incursion rats on gates). Again, the factor that makes these wealth generating activates unbalanced is the nature of the protections available in high sec.
Because of the above (and the totally separate factor of Faction Warfare missions, which are unbalanced because they are completeable in throwaway stealth bombers and super slippery T3Ds), adverse affects are felt across EVE. Faction Warfare is nothing more than a meta-gamed farm-ville with large organized groups actually deciding which side is going to be allowed to 'win' the forever war, and most of the above mentioned high sec activates are just used as 'resupply depots' for non-high sec players. This is bad because it turns other parts of EVE into less than what they could be, FW should be a vibrant pvp zone, nul sec should be an epic struggle for supremacy, but they are not, and high sec is the reason.
The bottom line is this: If you want the kind of wealth that high sec incursions and FW missions generate, you should have to personally risk more than a frigate/dessie sized ship in FW or a tech2 logi ship in a high sec incursion (my scimitar in high sec makes me more wealth than mt 2.5 bil isk Machariel does in null, with less risk...).
IMO the fix for incursions is either more risk or less isk.
The fix for FW is retool the missons to be both closer to home (not deep in enemy territory) and undoable by frigate sized ships (hell a few more web towers and/or neut towers in FW missions would help, FW missions should be more group content imo)
The fix for the blitz abuse of missions is to make the missions require full clearing like anomalies do, and randomization of spawns could help
On a related note, A (not the only) fix for null sec income making is to maybe enable mission agents in sov null, or at least make anomalies none afkable. For those who know about null, if you make anoms more like Forlorn Hubs and less like forsaken you put a hold on the raw isk spewing, then you can even up rewards (making null a bit more worthwhile) without breaking the economy.
Of couse, one has to actually give a damn about pve activities to think about this stuff. Again a big issue here is fair weather PVErs who actually don't give a damn about balance as long as their wallet is filled.
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Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
61
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 00:44:19 -
[1285] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Null sec income isn't bad. I litteraly just said that. The things that are bad are the things I described.
This is why no one is asking for a buff for null. if it were just a matter of income or "man I hate the isk in those high sec guys wallets, CCP should nerf them because I don't like them having money", people like me would be here saying "CCP just give us more isk"
But more isk, more wealth faucets, this hurts the game because it devalues everything. Only a super selfish person would think that's a good idea. This is also why CCP "Tribute" plan is horribly bad (I have 11 characters, I'm going to demonstrate that badness to CCP as soon as they implement this 'daily quest' BS).
Fixing the actual problems (FW missions, HS Incursions, the AFK-ability of null amons, high sec missions blitzing, low sec lvl 5 carrier blitzing and a couple more things) fixes the situation would breaking anything.
But the "entrenched interests" don't want to hear that. Their personal ingame wallets are much more important to them than a combat pve risk/reward balance that makes sense and supports good in game outcomes for all of us (even them). It's no different from real life where people are willing to turn a blind eye to fixable problems not because they honestly disagree, but because they (usually wrongly) think those fixes are going to somehow leave them worse off financially.
This discussion proves that short sightedness is a universal aspect of people. What I find particularly irritating is that most of the people defending the current imbalance aren't PVE players, they are PVPrs who found a PLEX laying golden goose (high sec incursions) and don't really give a flip about these issues beyond that. I'm a professional combat pve player and the current balance sucks,
Please explain what exactly the problem is because the glasses I wear paint a pretty straight forward picture of what really the problem is, if any. The glasses you were are prejudiced against something, perhaps null. The issue here is individual income and how that affects the game. The problem has been has been discussed time and time again. High Sec has blitzable missions (no including burners, see Anize Onamara's guide) and the incursions in high sec are unbalanced (unlike the low/null versions which are balanced by no CONCORD response and incursion rats on gates). Again, the factor that makes these wealth generating activates unbalanced is the nature of the protections available in high sec. Because of the above (and the totally separate factor of Faction Warfare missions, which are unbalanced because they are completeable in throwaway stealth bombers and super slippery T3Ds), adverse affects are felt across EVE. Faction Warfare is nothing more than a meta-gamed farm-ville with large organized groups actually deciding which side is going to be allowed to 'win' the forever war, and most of the above mentioned high sec activates are just used as 'resupply depots' for non-high sec players. This is bad because it turns other parts of EVE into less than what they could be, FW should be a vibrant pvp zone, nul sec should be an epic struggle for supremacy, but they are not, and high sec is the reason. The bottom line is this: If you want the kind of wealth that high sec incursions and FW missions generate, you should have to personally risk more than a frigate/dessie sized ship in FW or a tech2 logi ship in a high sec incursion (my scimitar in high sec makes me more wealth than mt 2.5 bil isk Machariel does in null, with less risk...).
IMO the fix for incursions is either more risk or less isk. The fix for FW is retool the missons to be both closer to home (not deep in enemy territory) and undoable by frigate sized ships (hell a few more web towers and/or neut towers in FW missions would help, FW missions should be more group content imo) The fix for the blitz abuse of missions is to make the missions require full clearing like anomalies do, and randomization of spawns could help On a related note, A (not the only) fix for null sec income making is to maybe enable mission agents in sov null, or at least make anomalies none afkable. For those who know about null, if you make anoms more like Forlorn Hubs and less like forsaken you put a hold on the raw isk spewing, then you can even up rewards (making null a bit more worthwhile) without breaking the economy. Of couse, one has to actually give a damn about pve activities to think about this stuff. Again a big issue here is fair weather PVErs who actually don't give a damn about balance as long as their wallet is filled.
I guess our opinions will never be the same. I highly doubt that FW and incursions are having a negative effect on other areas of eve. I do believe 100% null sec is a completely seperate beast that should be tackled on its own accord.
The OP stats that, "my scimitar in high sec makes me more wealth than mt 2.5 bil isk Machariel does in null, with less risk". However his 2.5b mach is probably used in some sort of solo PVE content where as his Scim is an important element of a well functioning fleet. Without the high degree of ccoperation, not to mention it's usually with complete strangers, fleets don't get anywhere near the isk/hour stated.
This whole debate is about null sec alone. Ask any of the 30k people who do not sign in anymore why they don't. Its not becuase of FW or incursions.
I |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12999
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 01:36:13 -
[1286] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:
I guess our opinions will never be the same. I highly doubt that FW and incursions are having a negative effect on other areas of eve. I do believe 100% null sec is a completely seperate beast that should be tackled on its own accord.
This is why the current situation exists. CCP has been adding things without considering how they fit together. IO started playing before incursions, wormholes, FW and burner missions existed. It wans't perfect, people complained about lvl 4 missions, but things made more sense, if you wanted null level income, you risked null. If you could live on 40 mil an hour (and you could) , you ran missions in high sec (until the lvl 5 bug came with the introduction of those missions, that was the 1st taste of unbalance disk high seccers got. I was one of them).
Quote: The OP stats that, "my scimitar in high sec makes me more wealth than mt 2.5 bil isk Machariel does in null, with less risk". However his 2.5b mach is probably used in some sort of solo PVE content where as his Scim is an important element of a well functioning fleet. Without the high degree of ccoperation, not to mention it's usually with complete strangers, fleets don't get anywhere near the isk/hour stated.
That's excuse making. My wallet doesn't care how many people are in a incursion fleet the same way it doesn't care how many ships had to die to take sov for me to rat in in Wicked Creek. This is about individual income, and I make more isk running a tech2 scimi in null than I do with a deadspace fit pirate ship in null. Same goes for FW, fa freaking purifier makes more than that mach.
That's why I have those alts, and it's insane, it should not work that way at all. And because it does, things like this happened, where CCP tried to fix null and saw nothing happen but more high sec incursion (and later FW) alts.
I hate it when incursion runners talk about how much organization it takes. Most of them (myself included) are doing nothing more than orbiting an anchor and following number tags or filling broadcast service requests. Talking about high levels of organization that you don't personally participate in is an attempt to deny to existence of an imbalance.
Quote: This whole debate is about null sec alone. Ask any of the 30k people who do not sign in anymore why they don't. Its not becuase of FW or incursions.
I
This has noting to do with the situation. You pretty much have to be more concerned about the crappy state of combat pve in EVE than your own wallet (or bias against null sec) to understand this issue fully. Again, no one is asking for a buff to nul, because to do so would be screwing the game for the sake of null. No, the way forward is to fix the broken thing, like CCP eventually did when they fixed the high sec lvl 5 bug.
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
703
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 01:42:48 -
[1287] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Fixing the actual problems (FW missions, HS Incursions, the AFK-ability of null amons, high sec missions blitzing, low sec lvl 5 carrier blitzing and a couple more things) fixes the situation without breaking anything.
This. In a game that vaunts risk and reward, and how loss is supposed to have some weight, these need a collective balance pass. Income sources that are just plain not reasonable to interdict have to go if you want a more vibrant game where people can find it engaging to play either side. Too many safe income streams for people to every really want to get uppity about fighting; all fight is sport in the game now really.
FW missions would be amazing content seeds if they were not easy to solo, and demanded use of bigger hulls. They wouldn't be easy income anymore, but they would potentially be a fun way to both earn income and get fights at the same time. It would make for far more engaging play sessions, even if the bottom line was not as lucrative.
HS incursions need a huge adjustment. Period.
Null-anoms are good in that they do foster content in some places, but Phoebe really made carrier ratting essentially risk free at some scales.
L5s would make more content if deadspace was removed from some missions. Let people actually create content over them. It is sort of interesting how not being able to cyno in directly on some L5s makes them too hard to interdict, while being able to cyno in null anoms makes them impossible to do so.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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ll Kuray ll
The Scope Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 02:31:44 -
[1288] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
This has noting to do with the situation. You pretty much have to be more concerned about the crappy state of combat pve in EVE than your own wallet (or bias against null sec) to understand this issue fully. Again, no one is asking for a buff to nul, because to do so would be screwing the game for the sake of null. No, the way forward is to fix the broken thing, like CCP eventually did when they fixed the high sec lvl 5 bug.
And the game has been in a steady decline ever since. Pretty nice thinking from CCP I guess. |
Hilti Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
67
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 02:51:36 -
[1289] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
That's why I have those alts, and it's insane, it should not work that way at all. And because it does, things like this happened, where CCP tried to fix null and saw nothing happen but more high sec incursion (and later FW) alts.
That's a null sec issue.
Jenn aSide wrote:
I hate it when incursion runners talk about how much organization it takes. Most of them (myself included) are doing nothing more than orbiting an anchor and following number tags or filling broadcast service requests. Talking about high levels of organization that you don't personally participate in is an attempt to deny to existence of an imbalance.
Its because of that you have fleets that run smoothly. I'm denying the inbalance because I do not see one. It's a group activity and it should be rewarded accordingly. It's an activity that requires you to be active. Without it they do not run it's simple as that. You keep skipping over the fact that there are opportunities to run incursions in null sec but not even the SOV holders run the incursions, Half of null is blue to each other and you keep ignoring that. they aren't imbalanced.
Jenn aSide wrote: This has noting to do with the situation. You pretty much have to be more concerned about the crappy state of combat pve in EVE than your own wallet (or bias against null sec) to understand this issue fully. Again, no one is asking for a buff to nul, because to do so would be screwing the game for the sake of null. No, the way forward is to fix the broken thing, like CCP eventually did when they fixed the high sec lvl 5 bug.
I am more concerned then my wallet of which is insignificant compared to some of the wallets i've seen I concerned at seeing 40k less people active when i sign in, I'm concerned that if something appears to be imbalanced the mentality of the people who play the game is to want the nerf hammer. Imbalance is great for the game, it always has been and CCP shouldn't change course because of something appearing to some as being "unfair". That's the game. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12999
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 02:51:52 -
[1290] - Quote
ll Kuray ll wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
This has noting to do with the situation. You pretty much have to be more concerned about the crappy state of combat pve in EVE than your own wallet (or bias against null sec) to understand this issue fully. Again, no one is asking for a buff to nul, because to do so would be screwing the game for the sake of null. No, the way forward is to fix the broken thing, like CCP eventually did when they fixed the high sec lvl 5 bug.
And the game has been in a steady decline ever since. Pretty nice thinking from CCP I guess.
ROFL, I knew that whole "CCP killed high sec because I can't solo a lvl 5 in high sec" sentiment would never die.
It was a bug. Bugs are bad.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
250
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 03:00:46 -
[1291] - Quote
Hilti Enaka wrote:baltec1 wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:I'd like to introduce you to a little app. http://postimg.org/image/npbs0qix7/ PS: They only need defending if they are attacked. POS's, unless anchored in a remote location making them easy targets, will not be hit. POS's under our control are getting hit day after day. Again, feel free to tell me how you are going to defend your pos solo in null. Unfortunately that's because you are part of one of the biggest cancers in the game. Join another alliance and move to other parts of null sec is self wealth is what you are after.
LOLOL, soo funny this post. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
750
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 03:07:58 -
[1292] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Fixing the actual problems (FW missions, HS Incursions, the AFK-ability of null amons, high sec missions blitzing, low sec lvl 5 carrier blitzing and a couple more things) fixes the situation without breaking anything. This. In a game that vaunts risk and reward, and how loss is supposed to have some weight, these need a collective balance pass. Income sources that are just plain not reasonable to interdict have to go if you want a more vibrant game where people can find it engaging to play either side. Too many safe income streams for people to every really want to get uppity about fighting; all fight is sport in the game now really. FW missions would be amazing content seeds if they were not easy to solo, and demanded use of bigger hulls. They wouldn't be easy income anymore, but they would potentially be a fun way to both earn income and get fights at the same time. It would make for far more engaging play sessions, even if the bottom line was not as lucrative. HS incursions need a huge adjustment. Period. Null-anoms are good in that they do foster content in some places, but Phoebe really made carrier ratting essentially risk free at some scales. L5s would make more content if deadspace was removed from some missions. Let people actually create content over them. It is sort of interesting how not being able to cyno in directly on some L5s makes them too hard to interdict, while being able to cyno in null anoms makes them impossible to do so.
FW missions for non-Gallente factions need to be unsolo-able by bombers.
Incursions are fine. I tried them for a month and had to stop out of boredom. The ISK/hr is less than normally claimed due to waitlists, down times and other issues, and they require a fair bit of organization compared to solo activities in allegedly more risky space which requires none.
The Russians two jumps from my home system have been running level 5s in supers as long as I've been playing. No one drops on them because I assume no one in range can out escalate them, or maybe they're blue with the neighboring supercap blobs. Regardless there's no content created there. Just a big blob of supers sitting on top of that income stream farming the **** out of them, kinda like Deklein.
Putting a viable income stream out of reach of solo players or players in smaller organizations is not going to improve the game. People will always seek out the most risk averse PvE. It's the swarms of risk averse players looking for easy PvP content to the tune of "log in, gank, log out of go station trade while awaiting next gank" that are more harmful than any form of ISK generation.
The people that go roam in solo BS or aggressive small gangs or do stupid things in caps or take fights they can't know the outcome of, are the people creating content.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
250
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 03:24:17 -
[1293] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
But, why bother when alts can farm ISK in other areas for less risk?
Very nicely put together post Scipio. And the obvious answer to the last question is "you don't" lol. But it's all moot. The issue isn't null sec income (which is mostly fine btw, the problems there are scaleability and afk-ability). It's the other broken aspects of combat pve across other parts of EVE. only wormhole space (maximum isk, maximum risk) works correctly. High Sec is too good because of mission blitzing, burner mission super-blitzing, some badly thought out LP stores and Incursions. Low sec is mostly fine except FW because CCP over buffed FW missions to hell and back. NPC null is ok because you can get high end exploration content AND those excellent pirate agents. The incursion defenders talking about null income are trying to divert people from the real problem. They are afraid their unbalanced cash cow is going to dry up (while simultaneously not understanding the incursions are really NULL SEC's cash cow, I bet if someone like CCP Quant could track it, a hefty chunk of that 8 trill per month ends up going into null character coffers). But no matter how they try to rationalize it, they can't deny the fact that CCPs statistics guy publicly expressed surprise (and dismay) at the numbers he published. The fact that he mentioned the fact that his numbers don't take into account LP gains was icing on the cake. There mad scramble in this thread to deny their is a problem just demonstrates their anxiety. But why play in null sec if it is so bad then. With all the changes to force projection null sec couldnt be even more safer than it was 1 year ago. Null sec income isn't bad. I litteraly just said that. The things that are bad are the things I described. This is why no one is asking for a buff for null. if it were just a matter of income or "man I hate the isk in those high sec guys wallets, CCP should nerf them because I don't like them having money", people like me would be here saying "CCP just give us more isk" But more isk, more wealth faucets, this hurts the game because it devalues everything. Only a super selfish person would think that's a good idea. This is also why CCP "Tribute" plan is horribly bad (I have 11 characters, I'm going to demonstrate that badness to CCP as soon as they implement this 'daily quest' BS). Fixing the actual problems (FW missions, HS Incursions, the AFK-ability of null amons, high sec missions blitzing, low sec lvl 5 carrier blitzing and a couple more things) fixes the situation without breaking anything. But the "entrenched interests" don't want to hear that. Their personal ingame wallets are much more important to them than a combat pve risk/reward balance that makes sense and supports good in game outcomes for all of us (even them). It's no different from real life where people are willing to turn a blind eye to fixable problems not because they honestly disagree, but because they (usually wrongly) think those fixes are going to somehow leave them worse off financially. This discussion proves that short sightedness is a universal aspect of people. What I find particularly irritating is that most of the people defending the current imbalance aren't PVE players, they are PVPrs who found a PLEX laying golden goose (high sec incursions) and don't really give a flip about these issues beyond that. I'm a professional combat pve player and the current balance sucks,
So you want CCP to nerf the income of these activities? Do you really think the players who do these activities now would still do them if CCP does this?
Now if you were proposing for CCP to make these activities more difficult and adjusting their income distributions accordingly, then I'll be more inclined to agree with you. I personally would really like to see CCP redesign Lev 4 Missions so that fail fitted Machs would no longer be able to blitz them. As for the burners, CCP has already mildly buff them to the point that they can't be done solo reliably.
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1666
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 04:28:56 -
[1294] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:CCP has already mildly buff them to the point that they can't be done solo reliably.
News to me.
I know of no level 4 that cannot be reliably run solo. Some take to long solo to be worth bothering with (The Antero Carrier Burner mission for example) and do not pay enough for multiple players to team up so they are run purely by people with multiple alts - but they can all be run solo.
My thoughts about this thread in general (I do not run incursions btw) -
1) social engineering and attempting to manipulate player behavior in games invariably fails all you can manipulate is how many people stay or leave
2) Its rather illogical to state "EVE is a sandbox and players choose" whilst demanding CCP change things to suit your preferred style of play
3) Generally the "nerf XYZ" approach just makes a particular activity less accessible to the mass of newer players effectively handing even more ISK to the people that can run them |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17034
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 05:08:49 -
[1295] - Quote
Doc J wrote:baltec1 wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:
Unfortunately that's because you are part of one of the biggest cancers in the game. Join another alliance and move to other parts of null sec is self wealth is what you are after.
All of which suffer the same attacks on their POS networks. Once again, feel free to tell us how you intend to defend your POS solo in null. Solo in null....WTF are you talking about? Living in sov null solo is near impossible. What is possible is for your private moons, in the rare occassion they get hit, are shared with alliance mates for when they come out of Ref. Lets be honest though, if you can get a fight on your door step people don't care who owns the moon if its going to produce content.
Every time this has been tried its failed. People will defend alliance assets but they will not defend your personal money moon that contributes nothing towards the alliance.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 15:39:05 -
[1296] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Doc J wrote:baltec1 wrote:Hilti Enaka wrote:
Unfortunately that's because you are part of one of the biggest cancers in the game. Join another alliance and move to other parts of null sec is self wealth is what you are after.
All of which suffer the same attacks on their POS networks. Once again, feel free to tell us how you intend to defend your POS solo in null. Solo in null....WTF are you talking about? Living in sov null solo is near impossible. What is possible is for your private moons, in the rare occassion they get hit, are shared with alliance mates for when they come out of Ref. Lets be honest though, if you can get a fight on your door step people don't care who owns the moon if its going to produce content. Every time this has been tried its failed. People will defend alliance assets but they will not defend your personal money moon that contributes nothing towards the alliance.
confirm that happen to our alliance involved with Poco issue |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12999
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 15:55:54 -
[1297] - Quote
I experienced the issue being discussed here last night, again. I'll recount it as it describes the issue perfectly.
So last night I'm playing EVE and chatting with my buddy in our personal channel (we were in Atlas and INIT together, now were in different alliances but still hang out together in chat with some other buddies from those days). He tried a bit of ratting and decided it was stupid, so he fired up his high sec incursion alt. He linked his Nightmare in chat and she is beautiful lol.
A while later (he's stopped talking to concentrate on running incursions, and for the record he was on the wait list for 4 minutes, got to love TVP) he says "ok, now that's better" and copy pastes his 31.5 mil wallet ticks.
While he's doing that I had to stop ratting because a Bastion fleet in Navy Harbs came though. Re-shiped into Cynabals and went after them, caught up to them in PFR space and had a 3 way skirmish. Didn't die this time, which is a wonder because i always die. So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything.....
Now what I did I do instead of going back to ratting after the enemy threat was gone (where i was at least vulnerable to others, creating content)? Yep,, you guessed it...I fired up the old Incursion alt. Fit for travel (i'd logged off in the old incursion focus) and went 26 peaceful jumps through high sec to reach the incursion, got on the automated watch list and was invited to fleet a whole 2 jumps before my destination.
2 hours later (when it was time to log off for bed, damn work the next morning) I was 252 million isk and 56000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before (of course I gotta wiat for the mom to pop to get the LP, but it's mine no matter what). Even with those 26 jumps factored in, that's better isk than i would have made ratting in null. I was left with the same feeling as always...questioning WHY was I wasting my time ratting in Null (or rather , why was i MANUALLY ratting in null with a mach when I could have just done afk ishtars in null while I incursioned in high).
If you can read the above and not see a broken thing filled with adverse (ie backwards) incentives, you aren't paying attention. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2400
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 16:21:51 -
[1298] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I experienced the issue being discussed here last night, again. I'll recount it as it describes the issue perfectly.
So last night I'm playing EVE and chatting with my buddy in our personal channel (we were in Atlas and INIT together, now were in different alliances but still hang out together in chat with some other buddies from those days). He tried a bit of ratting and decided it was stupid, so he fired up his high sec incursion alt. He linked his Nightmare in chat and she is beautiful lol.
A while later (he's stopped talking to concentrate on running incursions, and for the record he was on the wait list for 4 minutes, got to love TVP) he says "ok, now that's better" and copy pastes his 31.5 mil wallet ticks.
While he's doing that I had to stop ratting because a Bastion fleet in Navy Harbs came though. Re-shiped into Cynabals and went after them, caught up to them in PFR space and had a 3 way skirmish. Didn't die this time, which is a wonder because i always die. So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything.....
Now what I did I do instead of going back to ratting after the enemy threat was gone (where i was at least vulnerable to others, creating content)? Yep,, you guessed it...I fired up the old Incursion alt. Fit for travel (i'd logged off in the old incursion focus) and went 26 peaceful jumps through high sec to reach the incursion, got on the automated watch list and was invited to fleet a whole 2 jumps before my destination.
2 hours later (when it was time to log off for bed, damn work the next morning) I was 252 million isk and 56000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before (of course I gotta wiat for the mom to pop to get the LP, but it's mine no matter what). Even with those 26 jumps factored in, that's better isk than i would have made ratting in null. I was left with the same feeling as always...questioning WHY was I wasting my time ratting in Null (or rather , why was i MANUALLY ratting in null with a mach when I could have just done afk ishtars in null while I incursioned in high).
If you can read the above and not see a broken thing filled with adverse (ie backwards) incentives, you aren't paying attention.
Slash the ISK payout (slashing the LP would only make those LP go up in value/LP) and add waves to sites so clearing them takes longer. Make them "special HS waves" which are identical copy of the previous one if needed so you have to shoot more EHP worth of bad guys before the site trigger as completed. The super low danger effect will never really go away unless you just flat out remove the content if the buffed spawn rate seems to indicate CCP want people to run the content. The only thing I really see as changing is the payout and the speed. Removing content is just silly imo. Change the way it work is better.
The low risk is more than likely never going away. The guy paying 15$ a month to grind his raven isn't really in trouble if mission peak income is slashed to 40 mill/hours and purple incursion boat sailor are not in danger even if it drop to 50 mill/hours peak. At the same time, the risk/reward ratio of income will ALWAYS be wonky because you can't really put a ratio on it. How LS/NS and WH are more dangerous than HS is based on too many variable so setting up a real ratio is kind of impossible. The thing is, it should at least be more lucrative in dangerous space even if forgetting about the added risk. |
Acktose5123
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 16:22:26 -
[1299] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I experienced the issue being discussed here last night, again. I'll recount it as it describes the issue perfectly.
So last night I'm playing EVE and chatting with my buddy in our personal channel (we were in Atlas and INIT together, now were in different alliances but still hang out together in chat with some other buddies from those days). He tried a bit of ratting and decided it was stupid, so he fired up his high sec incursion alt. He linked his Nightmare in chat and she is beautiful lol.
A while later (he's stopped talking to concentrate on running incursions, and for the record he was on the wait list for 4 minutes, got to love TVP) he says "ok, now that's better" and copy pastes his 31.5 mil wallet ticks.
While he's doing that I had to stop ratting because a Bastion fleet in Navy Harbs came though. Re-shiped into Cynabals and went after them, caught up to them in PFR space and had a 3 way skirmish. Didn't die this time, which is a wonder because i always die. So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything.....
Now what I did I do instead of going back to ratting after the enemy threat was gone (where i was at least vulnerable to others, creating content)? Yep,, you guessed it...I fired up the old Incursion alt. Fit for travel (i'd logged off in the old incursion focus) and went 26 peaceful jumps through high sec to reach the incursion, got on the automated watch list and was invited to fleet a whole 2 jumps before my destination.
2 hours later (when it was time to log off for bed, damn work the next morning) I was 252 million isk and 56000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before (of course I gotta wiat for the mom to pop to get the LP, but it's mine no matter what). Even with those 26 jumps factored in, that's better isk than i would have made ratting in null. I was left with the same feeling as always...questioning WHY was I wasting my time ratting in Null (or rather , why was i MANUALLY ratting in null with a mach when I could have just done afk ishtars in null while I incursioned in high).
If you can read the above and not see a broken thing filled with adverse (ie backwards) incentives, you aren't paying attention.
So you went from a solo PvE activity to a Fleet based PvE activity, and are surprised that it made more isk?
|
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1913
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 16:25:39 -
[1300] - Quote
Acktose5123 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I experienced the issue being discussed here last night, again. I'll recount it as it describes the issue perfectly.
So last night I'm playing EVE and chatting with my buddy in our personal channel (we were in Atlas and INIT together, now were in different alliances but still hang out together in chat with some other buddies from those days). He tried a bit of ratting and decided it was stupid, so he fired up his high sec incursion alt. He linked his Nightmare in chat and she is beautiful lol.
A while later (he's stopped talking to concentrate on running incursions, and for the record he was on the wait list for 4 minutes, got to love TVP) he says "ok, now that's better" and copy pastes his 31.5 mil wallet ticks.
While he's doing that I had to stop ratting because a Bastion fleet in Navy Harbs came though. Re-shiped into Cynabals and went after them, caught up to them in PFR space and had a 3 way skirmish. Didn't die this time, which is a wonder because i always die. So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything.....
Now what I did I do instead of going back to ratting after the enemy threat was gone (where i was at least vulnerable to others, creating content)? Yep,, you guessed it...I fired up the old Incursion alt. Fit for travel (i'd logged off in the old incursion focus) and went 26 peaceful jumps through high sec to reach the incursion, got on the automated watch list and was invited to fleet a whole 2 jumps before my destination.
2 hours later (when it was time to log off for bed, damn work the next morning) I was 252 million isk and 56000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before (of course I gotta wiat for the mom to pop to get the LP, but it's mine no matter what). Even with those 26 jumps factored in, that's better isk than i would have made ratting in null. I was left with the same feeling as always...questioning WHY was I wasting my time ratting in Null (or rather , why was i MANUALLY ratting in null with a mach when I could have just done afk ishtars in null while I incursioned in high).
If you can read the above and not see a broken thing filled with adverse (ie backwards) incentives, you aren't paying attention. So you went from a solo PvE activity to a Fleet based PvE activity, and are surprised that it made more isk?
read the thread...such yawns
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
|
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12999
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 16:35:35 -
[1301] - Quote
Acktose5123 wrote:
So you went from a solo PvE activity to a Fleet based PvE activity, and are surprised that it made more isk?
I was in a fleet while ratting (a standing defense fleet). It took fleets of ships (and loses of some of those ships) to maintain the space where the activity occurred (no such sacrifices are needed for high sec incursions). It takes fleets of ships (and loses) to maintain the space.
I went from an activity in non-safe space to an activty in safe space, and poured more isk into my personal wallet doing that while risking something. This is broken when you consider the heart of the game is "risk much, gain much, risk nothing, gain nothing".
Still, the other name of the game is adaptation. So i've (re) adapted. Like so many others I'm going back to making my isk in a place where it's hard to disrupt. Screw earning isk by taking risk. Don't mind the fact that my Mach is taking up space an actual casual high sec player might be using. |
CEALAlatriste
Taberna del Turco
1
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 17:09:18 -
[1302] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I experienced the issue being discussed here last night, again. I'll recount it as it describes the issue perfectly.
So last night I'm playing EVE and chatting with my buddy in our personal channel (we were in Atlas and INIT together, now were in different alliances but still hang out together in chat with some other buddies from those days). He tried a bit of ratting and decided it was stupid, so he fired up his high sec incursion alt. He linked his Nightmare in chat and she is beautiful lol.
A while later (he's stopped talking to concentrate on running incursions, and for the record he was on the wait list for 4 minutes, got to love TVP) he says "ok, now that's better" and copy pastes his 31.5 mil wallet ticks.
While he's doing that I had to stop ratting because a Bastion fleet in Navy Harbs came though. Re-shiped into Cynabals and went after them, caught up to them in PFR space and had a 3 way skirmish. Didn't die this time, which is a wonder because i always die. So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything.....
Now what I did I do instead of going back to ratting after the enemy threat was gone (where i was at least vulnerable to others, creating content)? Yep,, you guessed it...I fired up the old Incursion alt. Fit for travel (i'd logged off in the old incursion focus) and went 26 peaceful jumps through high sec to reach the incursion, got on the automated watch list and was invited to fleet a whole 2 jumps before my destination.
2 hours later (when it was time to log off for bed, damn work the next morning) I was 252 million isk and 56000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before (of course I gotta wiat for the mom to pop to get the LP, but it's mine no matter what). Even with those 26 jumps factored in, that's better isk than i would have made ratting in null. I was left with the same feeling as always...questioning WHY was I wasting my time ratting in Null (or rather , why was i MANUALLY ratting in null with a mach when I could have just done afk ishtars in null while I incursioned in high).
If you can read the above and not see a broken thing filled with adverse (ie backwards) incentives, you aren't paying attention.
You must be in EU timezone then, because in US timezone yesterday, after doing 33 boring jumps through high sec to reach the incursion i got on the automated watch list only too see that there was no fleet because there was no FC available.
This happens in US timezone every night now, even in weekends. There is not enough people to keep a HQ fleet up. And VG fleets are struggling too. You waste more time moving, waiting and forming than running.
We were waiting and reforming for almost 2 hours because there was only 90 people in the whole incursion constellation (normal was 300-400), and after that we could run with minimum numbers (less than 30) so the only thing we could do was tpphs, at a rate of 30 minutes each.
I had to log off for bed, so after 3 hours and 33 boring jumps through high sec i was only 70 millions isk and 14000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before. That's worst isk than i would have made ratting in null with a lonely afk isthar.
PD: If you dont see that your personal experiencie proves nothing, you aren't paying attention.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2401
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 17:14:22 -
[1303] - Quote
CEALAlatriste wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I experienced the issue being discussed here last night, again. I'll recount it as it describes the issue perfectly.
So last night I'm playing EVE and chatting with my buddy in our personal channel (we were in Atlas and INIT together, now were in different alliances but still hang out together in chat with some other buddies from those days). He tried a bit of ratting and decided it was stupid, so he fired up his high sec incursion alt. He linked his Nightmare in chat and she is beautiful lol.
A while later (he's stopped talking to concentrate on running incursions, and for the record he was on the wait list for 4 minutes, got to love TVP) he says "ok, now that's better" and copy pastes his 31.5 mil wallet ticks.
While he's doing that I had to stop ratting because a Bastion fleet in Navy Harbs came though. Re-shiped into Cynabals and went after them, caught up to them in PFR space and had a 3 way skirmish. Didn't die this time, which is a wonder because i always die. So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything.....
Now what I did I do instead of going back to ratting after the enemy threat was gone (where i was at least vulnerable to others, creating content)? Yep,, you guessed it...I fired up the old Incursion alt. Fit for travel (i'd logged off in the old incursion focus) and went 26 peaceful jumps through high sec to reach the incursion, got on the automated watch list and was invited to fleet a whole 2 jumps before my destination.
2 hours later (when it was time to log off for bed, damn work the next morning) I was 252 million isk and 56000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before (of course I gotta wiat for the mom to pop to get the LP, but it's mine no matter what). Even with those 26 jumps factored in, that's better isk than i would have made ratting in null. I was left with the same feeling as always...questioning WHY was I wasting my time ratting in Null (or rather , why was i MANUALLY ratting in null with a mach when I could have just done afk ishtars in null while I incursioned in high).
If you can read the above and not see a broken thing filled with adverse (ie backwards) incentives, you aren't paying attention. You must be in EU timezone then, because in US timezone yesterday, after doing 33 boring jumps through high sec to reach the incursion i got on the automated watch list only too see that there was no fleet because there was no FC available. This happens in US timezone every night now, even in weekends. There is not enough people to keep a HQ fleet up. And VG fleets are struggling too. You waste more time moving, waiting and forming than running. We were waiting and reforming for almost 2 hours because there was only 90 people in the whole incursion constellation (normal was 300-400), and after that we could run with minimum numbers (less than 30) so the only thing we could do was tpphs, at a rate of 30 minutes each. I had to log off for bed, so after 3 hours and 33 boring jumps through high sec i was only 70 millions isk and 14000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before. That's worst isk than i would have made ratting in null with a lonely afk isthar. PD: If you dont see that your personal experiencie proves nothing, you aren't paying attention.
If you don't balance around the possible peak or close to it, anyone getting near it will break the system... |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12999
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 17:20:29 -
[1304] - Quote
CEALAlatriste wrote:
You must be in EU timezone then, because in US timezone yesterday, after doing 33 boring jumps through high sec to reach the incursion i got on the automated watch list only too see that there was no fleet because there was no FC available.
This happens in US timezone every night now, even in weekends. There is not enough people to keep a HQ fleet up. And VG fleets are struggling too. You waste more time moving, waiting and forming than running.
We were waiting and reforming for almost 2 hours because there was only 90 people in the whole incursion constellation (normal was 300-400), and after that we could run with minimum numbers (less than 30) so the only thing we could do was tpphs, at a rate of 30 minutes each.
I had to log off for bed, so after 3 hours and 33 boring jumps through high sec i was only 70 millions isk and 14000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before. That's worst isk than i would have made ratting in null with a lonely afk isthar.
PD: If you dont see that your personal experiencie proves nothing, you aren't paying attention.
Who are you running with? I joined fleet at 0315 eve time last night. and logged off after 0530.
My personal experience is only on top of the facts already laid out in this and other threads. Personally, i get tired of people who have all the ease of high sec complaining about "wahh , i had to wait to form up to farm outrageous isk" when others of us ahve to do way more than that to make less. This is why i fired up that incursion alt, you can only bang your head up against the nonsense combat pve system CCP allows to continue before you say "screw it, to high sec".
It's like living in South Central LA listening to some Beverely Hills kid complain about how he didn't get as much kaviar as he wanted last night so life is so unfair. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7208
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 18:03:54 -
[1305] - Quote
CEALAlatriste wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I experienced the issue being discussed here last night, again. I'll recount it as it describes the issue perfectly.
So last night I'm playing EVE and chatting with my buddy in our personal channel (we were in Atlas and INIT together, now were in different alliances but still hang out together in chat with some other buddies from those days). He tried a bit of ratting and decided it was stupid, so he fired up his high sec incursion alt. He linked his Nightmare in chat and she is beautiful lol.
A while later (he's stopped talking to concentrate on running incursions, and for the record he was on the wait list for 4 minutes, got to love TVP) he says "ok, now that's better" and copy pastes his 31.5 mil wallet ticks.
While he's doing that I had to stop ratting because a Bastion fleet in Navy Harbs came though. Re-shiped into Cynabals and went after them, caught up to them in PFR space and had a 3 way skirmish. Didn't die this time, which is a wonder because i always die. So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything.....
Now what I did I do instead of going back to ratting after the enemy threat was gone (where i was at least vulnerable to others, creating content)? Yep,, you guessed it...I fired up the old Incursion alt. Fit for travel (i'd logged off in the old incursion focus) and went 26 peaceful jumps through high sec to reach the incursion, got on the automated watch list and was invited to fleet a whole 2 jumps before my destination.
2 hours later (when it was time to log off for bed, damn work the next morning) I was 252 million isk and 56000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before (of course I gotta wiat for the mom to pop to get the LP, but it's mine no matter what). Even with those 26 jumps factored in, that's better isk than i would have made ratting in null. I was left with the same feeling as always...questioning WHY was I wasting my time ratting in Null (or rather , why was i MANUALLY ratting in null with a mach when I could have just done afk ishtars in null while I incursioned in high).
If you can read the above and not see a broken thing filled with adverse (ie backwards) incentives, you aren't paying attention. You must be in EU timezone then, because in US timezone yesterday, after doing 33 boring jumps through high sec to reach the incursion i got on the automated watch list only too see that there was no fleet because there was no FC available. This happens in US timezone every night now, even in weekends. There is not enough people to keep a HQ fleet up. And VG fleets are struggling too. You waste more time moving, waiting and forming than running. We were waiting and reforming for almost 2 hours because there was only 90 people in the whole incursion constellation (normal was 300-400), and after that we could run with minimum numbers (less than 30) so the only thing we could do was tpphs, at a rate of 30 minutes each. I had to log off for bed, so after 3 hours and 33 boring jumps through high sec i was only 70 millions isk and 14000 CONCORD LP richer than i was before. That's worst isk than i would have made ratting in null with a lonely afk isthar. PD: If you dont see that your personal experiencie proves nothing, you aren't paying attention.
The Pacific Time Zone in the US is the worst. Even in nullsec it's hard to get ganked. You have to stay up late to get it. My one nullsec nemesis, a fellow from Vancouver, does not even log in any more.
And I just realized I have not actually run any incursion content since spring of 2011 (not counting the mom-popping fleet in 2012).
I still has drake
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
9194
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 19:09:20 -
[1306] - Quote
I shall file this under 'C' for Carebear
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
|
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
704
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 19:32:58 -
[1307] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything....
I contest that you are doing it wrong. While I agree that HS incursions need to be less lucrative for a ton of reasons, just the way lots of these wealth generators need to be rebalanced, it's silly to make null look all that bad.
Thanks to Phoebe, ratting in null is very safe, approaching the levels of Hi Sec incursion safety. If other people can even make you want to stop ratting, then you are ratting improperly and/or the entity you are a part of needs to get their act together. We live in an age when carrier ratting is not only perfectly reasonable, it is the optimal way to rat in null. Per account, yes you earn less than a HS incursion alt, but considering that when this is scaled up with many players and all of their alts, the net income per unit of effort in null is not all that bad.
If you want to see null buffed, risk has to be re-introduced. Honestly it's pretty similar to Faction War missions, as players have found ways to mitigate 95% of the risk by using bombers; its unlikely they were designed to be done solo and in a ship that has essentially no risk, given how plexes are designed to be contested. Right now it's a buffet, do you want to make risk-free ISK in null, low, or High? Content is stifled when resources are this available, accessible, and of such a high quality.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13000
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 19:46:46 -
[1308] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything....
I contest that you are doing it wrong. While I agree that HS incursions need to be less lucrative for a ton of reasons, just the way lots of these wealth generators need to be rebalanced, it's silly to make null look all that bad. Thanks to Phoebe, ratting in null is very safe, approaching the levels of Hi Sec incursion safety. If other people can even make you want to stop ratting, then you are ratting improperly and/or the entity you are a part of needs to get their act together. We live in an age when carrier ratting is not only perfectly reasonable, it is the optimal way to rat in null. Per account, yes you earn less than a HS incursion alt, but considering that when this is scaled up with many players and all of their alts, the net income per unit of effort in null is not all that bad. If you want to see null buffed, risk has to be re-introduced. Honestly it's pretty similar to Faction War missions, as players have found ways to mitigate 95% of the risk by using bombers; its unlikely they were designed to be done solo and in a ship that has essentially no risk, given how plexes are designed to be contested. Right now it's a buffet, do you want to make risk-free ISK in null, low, or High? Content is stifled when resources are this available, accessible, and of such a high quality.
Your belief that the jump changes made carrier ratting safer are somewhat incorrect. They just mean that capitals can't teleport across the map on you. But a fleet of sub caps coming out of a wormhole or a fleet of BLOPs, T3s, Stratioses and Bombers can kill a carrier just as dead. My space is within CARRIER/DREAD/TITAN jump range of Curse. Not to jump on the
Now that's just my personal situation. But what you say still proves that the imbalance these people are denying is real. It takes risking multiple capital ships (to Awoxxing if nothing else) to exceed the income that one can reach flying a single sub-capital in a high sec incursion fleet.
Lets say that part again just so everyone gets it.
It takes risking multiple capital ships (to Awoxxing if nothing else) to exceed the income that one can reach flying a single sub-capital in a high sec incursion fleet.
You think that's reasonable? I call it broken as hell, as in it would be stupid as hell for me to put several billion isk worth of Carriers (that I don't even know are going to be useful for ratting after 'squadrons' are introduced) in space in null 1 carrier jump from Curse when i can just keep flying my 1.3 bil Mach in the safety of high sec while losing only maybe 30 mil isk per hour.
Come on Vic, Buddy, come on now lol. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17226
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 19:59:32 -
[1309] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Come on Vic, Buddy, come on now lol.
See my sig.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Acktose5123
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 20:16:33 -
[1310] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:the income that one can reach flying a single sub-capital in a high sec incursion I have yet to see an incursion being ran by a single sub-capital. And have you seen the fits on these incursion running boats? They cost as much as a carrier anyway (or more). |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13000
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 20:27:44 -
[1311] - Quote
Acktose5123 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:the income that one can reach flying a single sub-capital in a high sec incursion I have yet to see an incursion being ran by a single sub-capital. And have you seen the fits on these incursion running boats? They cost as much as a carrier anyway (or more).
I have one wallet (on the character that I run incursions with), there could be 7000 other people in that fleet, im running them for my wallet lol.
I don't know why that is hard to understand when I have always talked about individual income matters. When im ratting in null I am also doing something that would not be possible were it not for thousands of other people. But as with incursions, that does not matter at all.
As for fits, my incursion Mach costs a total of 1.3 bil (basically the price of a carrier hull). I've also run them in tech2 fit Scimitars that cost less than 250 mil.
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13000
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 20:35:04 -
[1312] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Come on Vic, Buddy, come on now lol.
See my sig.
I already quoted you! It's still true btw, people go through all kinds of mental gymnastics to maintain an unbalanced thing.
i remember when people were using Tracking Titans to make 400+ mil an hour doing forsaken hubs, when CCP announced they were nerfing that as part of a wider series of balance passes, they screamed blood murder. Same during the 1st incursion nerf and when CCP fixed the high sec lvl 5 bug. People react as if they were losing real money. I think it would make a hell os a psych study lol. |
Acktose5123
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 20:46:08 -
[1313] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Acktose5123 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:the income that one can reach flying a single sub-capital in a high sec incursion I have yet to see an incursion being ran by a single sub-capital. And have you seen the fits on these incursion running boats? They cost as much as a carrier anyway (or more). I have one wallet (on the character that I run incursions with), there could be 7000 other people in that fleet, im running them for my wallet lol. I don't know why that is hard to understand when I have always talked about individual income matters. When im ratting in null I am also doing something that would not be possible were it not for thousands of other people. But as with incursions, that does not matter at all. As for fits, my incursion Mach costs a total of 1.3 bil (basically the price of a carrier hull). I've also run them in tech2 fit Scimitars that cost less than 250 mil. Because it doesn't matter who's wallet you're running it for, it still requires you to have a fleet full of people. I don't know why its so hard to understand that an incursion site is many times more difficult to run than your average nullsec anom.
You say that ratting in nullsec is riskier, but that largely depends on where you are in null. I've been ratting in a carrier in nullsec for about 4 years now, and haven't had to dock / safe up but maybe a half dozen times. I've chosen to keep doing this over incursions because its easier than the hassle of putting up with incursion fleets. |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
106
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 20:46:47 -
[1314] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:People react as if they were losing real money. I think it would make a hell of a psych study lol.
If I were a social scientist it'd be like Christmas come early reading over these forums.
A case for more AoE in EvE
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13001
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 20:54:31 -
[1315] - Quote
Acktose5123 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Acktose5123 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:the income that one can reach flying a single sub-capital in a high sec incursion I have yet to see an incursion being ran by a single sub-capital. And have you seen the fits on these incursion running boats? They cost as much as a carrier anyway (or more). I have one wallet (on the character that I run incursions with), there could be 7000 other people in that fleet, im running them for my wallet lol. I don't know why that is hard to understand when I have always talked about individual income matters. When im ratting in null I am also doing something that would not be possible were it not for thousands of other people. But as with incursions, that does not matter at all. As for fits, my incursion Mach costs a total of 1.3 bil (basically the price of a carrier hull). I've also run them in tech2 fit Scimitars that cost less than 250 mil. Because it doesn't matter who's wallet you're running it for, it still requires you to have a fleet full of people. I don't know why its so hard to understand that an incursion site is many times more difficult to run than your average nullsec anom.
And this matters to one's wallet how? I'm not in an incursion fleet now but i bet there's one running. They are going to be there no matter what, it's not like you have to recruit a fleet yourself.
Incursion runners hide behind "you need a fleet" because iot's the only thin thread keeping them from the pain of having to admit that this thing that buys them PLEX is fundamentally unbalanced.
You say that ratting in nullsec is riskier, but that largely depends on where you are in null. I've been ratting in a carrier in nullsec for about 4 years now, and haven't had to dock / safe up but maybe a half dozen times. I've chosen to keep doing this over incursions because its easier than the hassle of putting up with incursion fleets.[/quote]
Again, you prove my point. CARRIER.
How many times does one have to safe up in high sec when not war decced again? That half a dozen times is about a half dozen more than you will ever have to do in high sec. Which is the point (thanks for helpoing me make it). The safety of high sec provides so much UN-measurable value that magnifies the problem.
If High Sec systems turned into low sec when an Incursion hit, no one in their right minds would complain about them, you'd be risking a ship to make that kind of isk. I'd personally be calling for an isk buff to high sec incursions since they would be functionally low sec risk level anyways.
High Sec incursions are having your cake (safety) and eating it too (null sec capital ship level income with a sub-capital ship). This really needs to change, and I'm hoping that change come sin the form of Drifters. |
Acktose5123
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 21:07:30 -
[1316] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Incursion runners hide behind "you need a fleet" because iot's the only thin thread keeping them from the pain of having to admit that this thing that buys them PLEX is fundamentally unbalanced. I wouldn't exactly call requiring a 5x increase in damage output + logistics support a "thin" line.
Jenn aSide wrote:Again, you prove my point. CARRIER. I run a carrier because its nearly afk-able. I could run them in a blinged out pirate faction battleship (sound familiar?) and probably do them quicker and easier.
Jenn aSide wrote:How many times does one have to safe up in high sec when not war decced again? More times than you might think. Two people who didn't "safe up":
https://zkillboard.com/kill/50170573/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/50265032/
(Just what I found after a few seconds looking at zkill) |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
918
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 21:25:12 -
[1317] - Quote
The EVE Vegas slides pointed out something that is a big contradiction in what CCP has said many times over the years - that Incursions were not a significant ISK faucet. I don't know if the data was presented incorrectly (either in the past or now) or if the EVE economics or incursion participation has drastically changed, but Incursions, at ISK faucet #3, are definitely more than just a bump in the road now. |
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
704
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 21:30:59 -
[1318] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Come on Vic, Buddy, come on now lol.
Eh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure nestled in the early pages of this are all sorts of posts from both of us that agree HS in it's present form has to go. Blah blah asphyxiates content, blah blah, kills null, robs opportunities for meaningful gameplay.
Seriously though. Smart bears will go to places where it's safe to bear, and find people with which it is equally safe to bear with. Now this opens up a different tangent as there should be no such place in reality, but in practice, well..not so much. A ratting carrier in Deklein, so long as the pilot isn't full derp mode, is under so little actual danger. You don't know how many times I have been thanked for making all the Ishtars and Gilas dock up so the Chimeras can have the lion's share of anomalies. It is sort of hilarious knowing that I am helping ratters more than hurting them with each kill. Purely a question of scale.
Yes. Capitals cannot teleport across the map. That's both good on one hand, and a problem on the other, because local capital supremacy can never be realistically challenged. When you have 20 or more Chimera that can all instantly come to the aid of one that is tackled, there is no appreciable sub-cap force that can do anything to it. Appropriately scaled, the risk in null is meaningless and almost completely negligible. That's what I think you just aren't seeing - yeah you can say it's 'risking multiple capital ships', but as you have more and more of them, the risk goes down and down. Carriers are cheap even, for the cost of one blingy Nightmare or Vindicator, you can get a decent ratting fit; get 13 or so of these or whatever the size for Vanguards is these days, and well...it would take a hell of a lot to ever realistically provide a threat. WHs are even less of a threat these days thanks to them being nerfed.
In either case, though the numbers may be different, it is still philosophically the same problem; the relative risk to the reward is out of synch. Granted, players at least enforce the local capital supremacy rather than CONCORD protecting incursion runners, so there is that, and null anomalies at least foster some player content.
Optimally, every resource should be contestable. Player's being able to mess with the aims of other players is what makes this game interesting. Yes, HS incursions are the elephant in the room because they foster zero player conflict and are among the top money makers (per player, per hour), yet are in HS. It's just a question of how many wealth faucets basically do not have risk associated with them in the right amounts. Yeah Incursions are silly, but they are not alone given all the other ways to make money.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7208
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 22:05:51 -
[1319] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Come on Vic, Buddy, come on now lol. Eh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure nestled in the early pages of this are all sorts of posts from both of us that agree HS in it's present form has to go. Blah blah asphyxiates content, blah blah, kills null, robs opportunities for meaningful gameplay. Seriously though. Smart bears will go to places where it's safe to bear, and find people with which it is equally safe to bear with. Now this opens up a different tangent as there should be no such place in reality, but in practice, well..not so much. A ratting carrier in Deklein, so long as the pilot isn't full derp mode, is under so little actual danger. You don't know how many times I have been thanked for making all the Ishtars and Gilas dock up so the Chimeras can have the lion's share of anomalies. It is sort of hilarious knowing that I am helping ratters more than hurting them with each kill. Purely a question of scale. Yes. Capitals cannot teleport across the map. That's both good on one hand, and a problem on the other, because local capital supremacy can never be realistically challenged. When you have 20 or more Chimera that can all instantly come to the aid of one that is tackled, there is no appreciable sub-cap force that can do anything to it. Appropriately scaled, the risk in null is meaningless and almost completely negligible. That's what I think you just aren't seeing - yeah you can say it's 'risking multiple capital ships', but as you have more and more of them, the risk goes down and down. Carriers are cheap even, for the cost of one blingy Nightmare or Vindicator, you can get a decent ratting fit; get 13 or so of these or whatever the size for Vanguards is these days, and well...it would take a hell of a lot to ever realistically provide a threat. WHs are even less of a threat these days thanks to them being nerfed. In either case, though the numbers may be different, it is still philosophically the same problem; the relative risk to the reward is out of synch. Granted, players at least enforce the local capital supremacy rather than CONCORD protecting incursion runners, so there is that, and null anomalies at least foster some player content. Optimally, every resource should be contestable. Player's being able to mess with the aims of other players is what makes this game interesting. Yes, HS incursions are the elephant in the room because they foster zero player conflict and are among the top money makers (per player, per hour), yet are in HS. It's just a question of how many wealth faucets basically do not have risk associated with them in the right amounts. Yeah Incursions are silly, but they are not alone given all the other ways to make money.
It's funny you mention contestable. It's always been a disappointment for me that everything in Eve becomes total Grind-fest.
With incursions, a huge opportunity to combine elements of PVP and PVe were missed. Contestable PVe would have been a boon to the game. With incursions, prior to the actual Incursion content being introduced, there were only live events around it, heralding the new content, for which there were players dedicated to fighting them and players dedicated to fighting alongside Sansha. Introduction of Incursions as content was a let-down. It was all about just more content to grind away at, and Sansha loyalists got screwed out of it. Were it up to me (TM) I would have included deadppace incursion pockets with lions share of payouts but they would have been PVP zones too with chances for Sansha loyalists to earn Sansha LP for their efforts.
Aside from FW, it appears that in every other aspect there is this huge wall between PVe and PVP and this creates a wide gulf. So you have PVPers in underwear who have nothing and PVE'ers in bling boats.
I know people would just say "Have incursions in nullsec. There's your PVP" but we all know how nullsec PVe goes: it's only viable deep past the intel channels and gank pipelines. Changes to jumping may have helped at least to some mitigation of "super cap/BLOPs/hotdrop kill-everything-that-moves-for-no-reason because we can" style of game play but the changes and adaptations on that are still being worked out.
In the end I would call these happy problems. But I'll still hold out hope for "Contestable PVe" where it's in the mission that you would have to kill another player to get something. Getting a damsel stolen by someone's aspie problem child only makes people feel like they are logging in to babysit and it counter-productive. Giving (for example) two players the same mission for one object at the same time, now that's what I'm talking about.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
|
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1917
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 22:10:38 -
[1320] - Quote
Acktose5123 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Acktose5123 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:the income that one can reach flying a single sub-capital in a high sec incursion I have yet to see an incursion being ran by a single sub-capital. And have you seen the fits on these incursion running boats? They cost as much as a carrier anyway (or more). I have one wallet (on the character that I run incursions with), there could be 7000 other people in that fleet, im running them for my wallet lol. I don't know why that is hard to understand when I have always talked about individual income matters. When im ratting in null I am also doing something that would not be possible were it not for thousands of other people. But as with incursions, that does not matter at all. As for fits, my incursion Mach costs a total of 1.3 bil (basically the price of a carrier hull). I've also run them in tech2 fit Scimitars that cost less than 250 mil. Because it doesn't matter who's wallet you're running it for, it still requires you to have a fleet full of people. I don't know why its so hard to understand that an incursion site is many times more difficult to run than your average nullsec anom. You say that ratting in nullsec is riskier, but that largely depends on where you are in null. I've been ratting in a carrier in nullsec for about 4 years now, and haven't had to dock / safe up but maybe a half dozen times. I've chosen to keep doing this over incursions because its easier than the hassle of putting up with incursion fleets.
you dont have to "safe up" in highsec incursions
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
|
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Valacus
Streets of Fire
42
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 03:47:28 -
[1321] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Acktose5123 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Acktose5123 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:the income that one can reach flying a single sub-capital in a high sec incursion I have yet to see an incursion being ran by a single sub-capital. And have you seen the fits on these incursion running boats? They cost as much as a carrier anyway (or more). I have one wallet (on the character that I run incursions with), there could be 7000 other people in that fleet, im running them for my wallet lol. I don't know why that is hard to understand when I have always talked about individual income matters. When im ratting in null I am also doing something that would not be possible were it not for thousands of other people. But as with incursions, that does not matter at all. As for fits, my incursion Mach costs a total of 1.3 bil (basically the price of a carrier hull). I've also run them in tech2 fit Scimitars that cost less than 250 mil. Because it doesn't matter who's wallet you're running it for, it still requires you to have a fleet full of people. I don't know why its so hard to understand that an incursion site is many times more difficult to run than your average nullsec anom. You say that ratting in nullsec is riskier, but that largely depends on where you are in null. I've been ratting in a carrier in nullsec for about 4 years now, and haven't had to dock / safe up but maybe a half dozen times. I've chosen to keep doing this over incursions because its easier than the hassle of putting up with incursion fleets. you dont have to "safe up" in highsec incursions
You don't have to fleet to run anoms. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
752
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 03:54:42 -
[1322] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: Come on Vic, Buddy, come on now lol. Eh, don't get me wrong. I'm sure nestled in the early pages of this are all sorts of posts from both of us that agree HS in it's present form has to go. Blah blah asphyxiates content, blah blah, kills null, robs opportunities for meaningful gameplay. Seriously though. Smart bears will go to places where it's safe to bear, and find people with which it is equally safe to bear with. Now this opens up a different tangent as there should be no such place in reality, but in practice, well..not so much. A ratting carrier in Deklein, so long as the pilot isn't full derp mode, is under so little actual danger. You don't know how many times I have been thanked for making all the Ishtars and Gilas dock up so the Chimeras can have the lion's share of anomalies. It is sort of hilarious knowing that I am helping ratters more than hurting them with each kill. Purely a question of scale. Yes. Capitals cannot teleport across the map. That's both good on one hand, and a problem on the other, because local capital supremacy can never be realistically challenged. When you have 20 or more Chimera that can all instantly come to the aid of one that is tackled, there is no appreciable sub-cap force that can do anything to it. Appropriately scaled, the risk in null is meaningless and almost completely negligible. That's what I think you just aren't seeing - yeah you can say it's 'risking multiple capital ships', but as you have more and more of them, the risk goes down and down. Carriers are cheap even, for the cost of one blingy Nightmare or Vindicator, you can get a decent ratting fit; get 13 or so of these or whatever the size for Vanguards is these days, and well...it would take a hell of a lot to ever realistically provide a threat. WHs are even less of a threat these days thanks to them being nerfed. In either case, though the numbers may be different, it is still philosophically the same problem; the relative risk to the reward is out of synch. Granted, players at least enforce the local capital supremacy rather than CONCORD protecting incursion runners, so there is that, and null anomalies at least foster some player content. Optimally, every resource should be contestable. Player's being able to mess with the aims of other players is what makes this game interesting. Yes, HS incursions are the elephant in the room because they foster zero player conflict and are among the top money makers (per player, per hour), yet are in HS. It's just a question of how many wealth faucets basically do not have risk associated with them in the right amounts. Yeah Incursions are silly, but they are not alone given all the other ways to make money.
Players will always find a way to lock down a steady income. Lack of content is not the result of safe PvE activities.
|
unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
159
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 05:20:52 -
[1323] - Quote
Valacus wrote:
You don't have to fleet to run anoms.
I am fairly sure that it take more effort to form group for raid in WoW than join incursion fleet. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17040
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 05:38:06 -
[1324] - Quote
Two bads who blinged their level 4 ships. Normal high sec mission and incursion ships are not profitable to gank and are as close to 100% safe as you can get. PVE ship losses in the most secure null sov space dwarfs highsec losses.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Cannibal Zuza
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 06:31:26 -
[1325] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:So while i'm forced to quit ratting to defend my space, my buddy is pushing a pirate BS in high sec making more than I can make in Null while being protected by CONCORD and logi ships and not having to defend against anything....
I contest that you are doing it wrong. While I agree that HS incursions need to be less lucrative for a ton of reasons, just the way lots of these wealth generators need to be rebalanced, it's silly to make null look all that bad. Thanks to Phoebe, ratting in null is very safe, approaching the levels of Hi Sec incursion safety. If other people can even make you want to stop ratting, then you are ratting improperly and/or the entity you are a part of needs to get their act together. We live in an age when carrier ratting is not only perfectly reasonable, it is the optimal way to rat in null. Per account, yes you earn less than a HS incursion alt, but considering that when this is scaled up with many players and all of their alts, the net income per unit of effort in null is not all that bad. If you want to see null buffed, risk has to be re-introduced. Honestly it's pretty similar to Faction War missions, as players have found ways to mitigate 95% of the risk by using bombers; its unlikely they were designed to be done solo and in a ship that has essentially no risk, given how plexes are designed to be contested. Right now it's a buffet, do you want to make risk-free ISK in null, low, or High? Content is stifled when resources are this available, accessible, and of such a high quality.
Quit your whining about content dude. Every single one of your post has been whining about lack of content this, lack of content that. Is the word content all you null knuckleheads know of?
The reason you null knuckleheads lack content is cause you join a Alliance those goes around blueing everything that moves in their in Regions. You guys surround yourselves with walls of blues and whine in the forums cause you can't find any content, so typical.
If you want content in your blue haven then I'll give you some of Zuza's wisdom. In the age of the blue box which you nullies live in, I suggest to you the art of Awoxing. This is the golden age for Awoxers at this time and it'll get 10x better when CCP introduces those SP skill pack injectors in this game. All it takes is 6 months to skill up for a good awoxing toon and once you planted those seeds in a decent Alliance you'll never thurst for content ever again. |
Top Guac
Mexican Avacado Syndicate
30
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 07:51:45 -
[1326] - Quote
Cannibal Zuza wrote:Quit your whining about content dude. Every single one of your post has been whining about lack of content this, lack of content that. Is the word content all you null knuckleheads know of?
The reason you null knuckleheads lack content is cause you join a Alliance those goes around blueing everything that moves in their in Regions. You guys surround yourselves with walls of blues and whine in the forums cause you can't find any content, so typical.
If you want content in your blue haven then I'll give you some of Zuza's wisdom. In the age of the blue box which you nullies live in, I suggest to you the art of Awoxing. This is the golden age for Awoxers at this time and it'll get 10x better when CCP introduces those SP skill pack injectors in this game. All it takes is 6 months to skill up for a good awoxing toon and once you planted those seeds in a decent Alliance you'll never thurst for content ever again. Who's alt are you?
Lucas Kell's, Market McSelling Alt's, Epeen's?
Maybe you're all just the one person anyway.
Grow some balls woman and post on your main. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Snuffed Out
4497
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 08:32:59 -
[1327] - Quote
Cannibal Zuza wrote:Quit your whining about content dude. Every single one of your post has been whining about lack of content this, lack of content that. Is the word content all you null knuckleheads know of?
The reason you null knuckleheads lack content is cause you join a Alliance those goes around blueing everything that moves in their in Regions. You guys surround yourselves with walls of blues and whine in the forums cause you can't find any content, so typical.
If you want content in your blue haven then I'll give you some of Zuza's wisdom. In the age of the blue box which you nullies live in, I suggest to you the art of Awoxing. This is the golden age for Awoxers at this time and it'll get 10x better when CCP introduces those SP skill pack injectors in this game. All it takes is 6 months to skill up for a good awoxing toon and once you planted those seeds in a decent Alliance you'll never thurst for content ever again. ok i literally just resubbed specifically to tell you i'm very disappointed in you |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Snuffed Out
4497
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 08:33:50 -
[1328] - Quote
I mean NULL-CKLEHEADS was RIGHT. THERE. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Carpe Noctem. Pandemic Legion
2623
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 18:03:29 -
[1329] - Quote
So long as CCP in general insists on prioritizing the sale of salads to vegans, who spend their days sitting on plush bean bag chairs in hipster coffee houses in hisec, EvE will never reach critical mass based on what actually generates buzz and sells EvE.
CCP has already spent the last few years trying to make hisec safer and more content-rich, while kicking their bread-and-butter hype machine in nullsec di-rectly in the ballsack...and do they now wonder in amazement why a massive migration and land-grab from the other regions into the new nullsec hasn't happened while hisec remains a content and ISK rich land of milk and honey?
Here's a hint...
BR-5's, 6-VDT's and large scale battles sell eve. A dank mining, incursion running or industry video from hisec comparatively does not.
CCP was bold with nullsec changes. Time to be bold again.
F
Would you like to know more?
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13002
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 18:19:01 -
[1330] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:So long as CCP in general insists on prioritizing the sale of salads to vegans, who spend their days sitting on plush bean bag chairs in hipster coffee houses in hisec, EvE will never reach critical mass based on what actually generates buzz and sells EvE. CCP has already spent the last few years trying to make hisec safer and more content-rich, while kicking their bread-and-butter hype machine in nullsec di-rectly in the ballsack...and do they now wonder in amazement why a massive migration and land-grab from the other regions into the new nullsec hasn't happened while hisec remains a content and ISK rich land of milk and honey? Here's a hint... BR-5's, 6-VDT's and large scale battles sell eve. A dank mining, incursion running or industry video from hisec comparatively does not. CCP was bold with nullsec changes. Time to be bold again. F
I agree with most of what you say and always tend to agree. But I disagree completely with you ship insurance idea. People don't refrain from pvp because they don't like losing ships (and EVE is so flush with ways of making isk, losses don't count much either). people don't pvp because (amongst other reasons) they don't like to lose, period. Nothing you do, not free ships, not removing kill mails, nothing you can do will change that. Ever.
What it will do is make my take tech2 fit mach alt teams into wormholes to make isk. People who already don't mind loosing ships might lose a few more, but it wouldn't have the impact you think it would.
I know the idea sounds good in your head, but it's not. |
|
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Carpe Noctem. Pandemic Legion
2624
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 18:56:25 -
[1331] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: I agree with most of what you say and always tend to agree. But I disagree completely with you ship insurance idea. People don't refrain from pvp because they don't like losing ships (and EVE is so flush with ways of making isk, losses don't count much either). people don't pvp because (amongst other reasons) they don't like to lose, period. Nothing you do, not free ships, not removing kill mails, nothing you can do will change that. Ever.
Well one example from personal experience is how we sat outside Brave's HQ with only 8-10 megathrons and they wouldn't come out to fight until an FC who could authorize SRP logged on first. Groups like that are brave and will bring a fight, IF they have SRP or readily replaceable ships...
Thus my opinion, that if thunderdome is ever to happen in EvE the pain of ship loss needs to be transferred from ships to structures (or something else) instead, because ships are the very fuel we burn for content. Heresy I know, but for many not as EvE-wealthy as vets its the hard truth. We want content, we have to make ships the cheap fuel for content they are.
F
Would you like to know more?
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
706
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 19:16:11 -
[1332] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:It's funny you mention contestable.
Oh, it would be a dream come true if you could fight for the Sansha in incursions in HS, or there was a FW like militia you could join to fight for them, instead of against them. Heck, if having good standings towards Sansha just prevented the rats from attacking you, ganking incursion runners during an incursion would be closer to viable.
Imagine doing experiments on rats. You limit one groups access to food and water, and expose them to predators - the strongest, quickest, and smartest will do best on average. Another group, you give free access to as much food and water as you want and there are no predators - they become fat, lazy, and disengaged with things.
New Eden is supposed to be the former, but has become the latter. This is not just a hi sec problem. People will find the game more enjoyable when they have to collaborate, work together, and conspire just to tread water, rather than having such a glut of resources bore them into ennui.
Cannibal Zuza wrote: The reason you null knuckleheads lack content is cause you join a Alliance that those goes around blueing everything that moves in their in Regions. You guys surround yourselves with walls of blues and whine in the forums cause you can't find any content, so typical.
Interesting considering my current alliance has no blues at all. My comments (complaints if you will) center around how insulated null has become from antagonists, content creators, etc, in the wake of Phoebe. Have you shot at sov holders recently? Things would be more interesting if it were not so easy to stay safe out there, just as things would be more interesting if incursions weren't absurd income which is both completely safe and always available.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote: Well one example from personal experience is how we sat outside Brave's HQ with only 8-10 megathrons and they wouldn't come out to fight until an FC who could authorize SRP logged on first. Groups like that are brave and will bring a fight, IF they have SRP or readily replaceable ships...
Former BL complaining Brave won't undock is dumb. You overfarmed them into senescence; groups being irresponsible like that is part of the reason we can't have nice things, as some people just don't know how to responsibly manage the rich natural resources of null. To expect them to recklessly welp ships to you on their own dime is silly. Ah well, at least BL learned what happens when all the content is gone. Shoulda read the Lorax.
Seriously though, part of the problem with this is that there are too many monolithic, big groups out there and not a whole lot of smaller operations, which there need to be. Between logistical concerns and the income streams that be, smaller groups just have it harder. Syndicate is one of the most violent regions in the game, but one of the poorest; people WANT to live the small gang and small group lifestyle, but it is almost impossible to do so without alts and making income other places. The proper solution then, to actually enable playstyles that are not attached to large dominating groups, is to put good income streams in NPC null while taking them out of places that do not need them.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
106
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 19:32:05 -
[1333] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: I agree with most of what you say and always tend to agree. But I disagree completely with you ship insurance idea. People don't refrain from pvp because they don't like losing ships (and EVE is so flush with ways of making isk, losses don't count much either). people don't pvp because (amongst other reasons) they don't like to lose, period. Nothing you do, not free ships, not removing kill mails, nothing you can do will change that. Ever.
Well one example from personal experience is how we sat outside Brave's HQ with only 8-10 megathrons and they wouldn't come out to fight until an FC who could authorize SRP logged on first. Groups like that are brave and will bring a fight, IF they have SRP or readily replaceable ships... Thus my opinion, that if thunderdome is ever to happen in EvE the pain of ship loss needs to be transferred from ships to structures (or something else) instead, because ships are the very fuel we burn for content. Heresy I know, but for many not as EvE-wealthy as vets its the hard truth. We want content, we have to make ships the cheap fuel for content they are. F
Higher insurance payouts is one way to lower the pain of ship loss, but I don't think it's the best option. Ships just need to be outright cheaper, frigates, destroyers, and cruisers are all cheap enough that people dont mind throwing them away and they are the ships seen most often in pvp. Battleships are when the exponential cost increase starts to get a little silly. 150m for a slow hull capable of little more than a much cheaper cruiser? Why bother.
Alternatively making the isk to buy a ship could be less of a grind and that would have the same effect. Everyone must rember starting out and thinking "damn I lost my BC better go farm missions for hours to get it back"; why does it take several hours to earn the isk for a ship which will last you minutes.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1923
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 19:35:17 -
[1334] - Quote
if you are in sov nullsec you should not need to rely on srp, you get enough space to rat in, people also buy plex to buy ships so lowerin cost and grind just makes ccp lose money.
When i was in sov null i also noticed people not joining fleets because of no srp, its a pretty lame excuse tbh
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Lara Sunji
State War Academy Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 19:46:37 -
[1335] - Quote
Wardec incursion groups if you are so unhappy with them. It's what you do to other people who do other activities in the game. So until then, shush. |
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
706
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 19:50:41 -
[1336] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote: why does it take several hours to earn the isk for a ship which will last you minutes.
Why do you let yourself lose it within minutes?
Each security sector should be capable of supporting itself.
Null's bottom up income should support null style game play, it's a little under at the moment.
Low's bottom up income should support Low style game play, it's a little over a the moment.
High's bottom up income should support High style game play, it's grossly over at the moment.
NPC nullsec's bottom up income should support NPC null's game play. It's grossly under at the moment.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13002
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 19:56:34 -
[1337] - Quote
Lara Sunji wrote:Wardec incursion groups if you are so unhappy with them. It's what you do to other people who do other activities in the game. So until then, shush.
This nonsense again. Who said anyone was unhappy with incursion groups. I think they are cool, and TVP is my favorite. This is a balance discussion not "who hates who".
How do you wardec NPC corps btw (some incursion runners stay in npc corps for this reason)
But more importantly,. why would we wardec ourselves. Its US running high sec incursions because they are too good to ignore and that's the problem. Go to any incursion group (I run with TVP and WTM) and ask on teamspeak who has characters in null. The result won't surprise me, but it will surprise you.
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
706
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Posted - 2015.11.24 19:58:49 -
[1338] - Quote
Lara Sunji wrote:Wardec incursion groups if you are so unhappy with them. It's what you do to other people who do other activities in the game. So until then, shush.
Have you ever tried wardeccing my NPC corp alt? How successful were you?
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
161
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 20:00:34 -
[1339] - Quote
Lara Sunji wrote:Wardec incursion groups if you are so unhappy with them. It's what you do to other people who do other activities in the game. So until then, shush.
solution, ban all NPC corp from forum and incursion
if you want to do high sec incursion, you must be in player-owned corp. And let yourself to subject to risk of wardeccer in return for high reward |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
231
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 20:03:36 -
[1340] - Quote
unidenify wrote:Lara Sunji wrote:Wardec incursion groups if you are so unhappy with them. It's what you do to other people who do other activities in the game. So until then, shush. solution, ban all NPC corp from forum and incursion
There already is a forum you can talk on they can't. Think it has to be a corp. of 10 or more before you can use it. |
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
161
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 20:05:20 -
[1341] - Quote
Avvy wrote:unidenify wrote:Lara Sunji wrote:Wardec incursion groups if you are so unhappy with them. It's what you do to other people who do other activities in the game. So until then, shush. solution, ban all NPC corp from forum and incursion There already is a forum you can talk on they can't. Think it has to be a player corp. of 10 or more before you can use it.
No one use it because it is pure diplomatic channel where npc corp has no business to be in first place |
Lara Sunji
State War Academy Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 20:22:14 -
[1342] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Lara Sunji wrote:Wardec incursion groups if you are so unhappy with them. It's what you do to other people who do other activities in the game. So until then, shush. Have you ever tried wardeccing my NPC corp alt? How successful were you? Well I guess you're just out of luck then aren't you? BRB, getting my bucket for tears. |
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
245
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 20:28:01 -
[1343] - Quote
if someone dislikes teh incursion groups so much.....best solution i think is simply not to let them farm them.....go in and pop the mom and end each incursion soon as the runners fill the bar full blue. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1923
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 20:32:49 -
[1344] - Quote
god some people dont read...
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
706
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 21:05:50 -
[1345] - Quote
Lara Sunji wrote:Oh and also, gank them perhaps?
Oh here we go.
With as many groups dedicated to ganking as there are, don't you find it strange that they do not go after incursion runners much? There's a reason. I'm sure a casual perusing of the thread would reveal it, but simply put, with the way rat aggro and warp gates work, there's really not all that much of a window to do it in.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 21:18:49 -
[1346] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:if someone dislikes teh incursion groups so much.....best solution i think is simply not to let them farm them.....go in and pop the mom and end each incursion soon as the runners fill the bar full blue.
If I form a fleet that can POP the mom, I might as well just farm sites with it... |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 21:27:05 -
[1347] - Quote
Sometime I wonder how a gank would fare with tornadoes on a TCRC spawn if they followed the fleet going and shot for the poor dude getting 2 otuni neuting him to ****. I can't remember if the initial spawn point the first primary tho. If it did, you would not need to divert rat aggro to yourself with a point... Anyone tried to do that? It's probbaly hard as hell to time well... |
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
706
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 21:39:47 -
[1348] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Sometime I wonder how a gank would fare with tornadoes on a TCRC spawn if they followed the fleet going and shot for the poor dude getting 2 otuni neuting him to ****. I can't remember if the initial spawn point the first primary tho. If it did, you would not need to divert rat aggro to yourself with a point... Anyone tried to do that? It's probbaly hard as hell to time well...
The thing I like about EvE is that people are so very creative and do try stuff. If there is a reliable way to ruin someone's day, it will be found. Think about all the tantalizing and blingy boats that are out there day after day, yet for all the pilots various groups have to man catalysts, talos, and even brutix, these are left alone.
Yeah there are stories of particularly bling encrusted boats being ganked, but the frequency with which it happens, versus what you would expect given the target quality and density speaks volumes on how practical and viable it is.
Another issue is that well...thanks to the changes in AegisSov, Pirate battleships are cheap, as is bling. Pirates actually don't have as easy a time staying solvent when none of the loot is worth much any more.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 22:00:36 -
[1349] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Sometime I wonder how a gank would fare with tornadoes on a TCRC spawn if they followed the fleet going and shot for the poor dude getting 2 otuni neuting him to ****. I can't remember if the initial spawn point the first primary tho. If it did, you would not need to divert rat aggro to yourself with a point... Anyone tried to do that? It's probbaly hard as hell to time well... The thing I like about EvE is that people are so very creative and do try stuff. If there is a reliable way to ruin someone's day, it will be found. Think about all the tantalizing and blingy boats that are out there day after day, yet for all the pilots various groups have to man catalysts, talos, and even brutix, these are left alone. Yeah there are stories of particularly bling encrusted boats being ganked, but the frequency with which it happens, versus what you would expect given the target quality and density speaks volumes on how practical and viable it is. Another issue is that well...thanks to the changes in AegisSov, Pirate battleships are cheap, as is bling. Pirates actually don't have as easy a time staying solvent when none of the loot is worth much any more.
The market value of loot crashing is not really related unless you think CCP should nerf/buff ships potential EHP following market trends... At what level of bling should a ship be gank-worthy anyway? Should it be worth it with a T2 fit? faction? C type? B type? A type? If you say A type, should the potential EHP of ships gets nerfed every time mods get more farmed and thus drop in price to another lower level?
How much teamwork is supposed to be enough to prevent yourself from being ganked or at least to be put out of financially sound to gank? |
Cannibal Zuza
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 08:00:29 -
[1350] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:So long as CCP in general insists on prioritizing the sale of salads to vegans, who spend their days sitting on plush bean bag chairs in hipster coffee houses in hisec, EvE will never reach critical mass based on what actually generates buzz and sells EvE. CCP has already spent the last few years trying to make hisec safer and more content-rich, while kicking their bread-and-butter hype machine in nullsec di-rectly in the ballsack...and do they now wonder in amazement why a massive migration and land-grab from the other regions into the new nullsec hasn't happened while hisec remains a content and ISK rich land of milk and honey? Here's a hint... BR-5's, 6-VDT's and large scale battles sell eve. A dank mining, incursion running or industry video from hisec comparatively does not. CCP was bold with nullsec changes. Time to be bold again. F I agree with most of what you say and always tend to agree. But I disagree completely with you ship insurance idea. People don't refrain from pvp because they don't like losing ships (and EVE is so flush with ways of making isk, losses don't count much either). people don't pvp because (amongst other reasons) they don't like to lose, period. Nothing you do, not free ships, not removing kill mails, nothing you can do will change that. Ever. What it will do is make my take tech2 fit mach alt teams into wormholes to make isk. People who already don't mind loosing ships might lose a few more, but it wouldn't have the impact you think it would. I know the idea sounds good in your head, but it's not.
So says Miss Knowitall. You just think you have all the answers and that you're always right don't you. I'm not convince that you actually know what you're talking about. In fact to me you just sound like one of those bitter vets who being playing the game far too long for his/her own good.
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
107
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 09:01:18 -
[1351] - Quote
unidenify wrote:Lara Sunji wrote:Wardec incursion groups if you are so unhappy with them. It's what you do to other people who do other activities in the game. So until then, shush. solution, ban all NPC corp from forum and incursion if you want to do high sec incursion, you must be in player-owned corp. And let yourself to subject to risk of wardeccer in return for high reward
Banning NPC corps from incursions will just move those players into 1-man corps. Many incursion runners are already in single man corps for tax reasons anyway so your idea will just push the rest over. Even if my 1-man corp got wardecced, it's just me, there's nothing stopping me from dropping corp and making a new one. Highsec incursions cannot be meaningfully disrupted and everyone knows it; where else do you see people flying multi billion isk ships they have personally paid for?
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Raya Su Rollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 09:53:26 -
[1352] - Quote
I've carefully read the OPs text and I can say all 4 points are FLAWED. I can easily prove it, but I have no incentive to do so. Basically, if CCP ever nerfs incursions or move them to lowsec ( like they did with L5s ), not only almost nobody will do them, but also they would move another ISK faucet to low/NULL sec.
Have to remind everyone that the "Bounties" are already the highest isk faucet in the game and the ratting happen mostly in NULL. There people farm even in supers, worth 20b or simply in carriers, but these things are not well known as tthose who blame the Highsec Incursions either never go NULL or they're simply living in null and hope to make even more money, not just from ratting, but also from incursions.
In conclusion, if they remove the incursions from Highsec, all the isk faucets ( Bounties, DED sites, incursions will be in 0.0 space and very little left in HS. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2041
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 10:08:11 -
[1353] - Quote
Raya Su Rollard wrote:In conclusion, if they remove the incursions from Highsec, all the isk faucets ( Bounties, DED sites, incursions will be in 0.0 space and very little left in HS. Isn't that how a sandbox game with income based on risk vs. reward should be?
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CEALAlatriste
Taberna del Turco
3
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 10:27:29 -
[1354] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: Who are you running with? I joined fleet at 0315 eve time last night. and logged off after 0530.
With the same people i've been running incursions for almost 5 years now. We are still waiting you to contest us in vgs with your no logi bastion marauder fleet. You already know where we are so feel free to try whenever you want.
Jenn aSide wrote: My personal experience is only on top of the facts already laid out in this and other threads. Personally, i get tired of people who have all the ease of high sec complaining about "wahh , i had to wait to form up to farm outrageous isk" when others of us ahve to do way more than that to make less. This is why i fired up that incursion alt, you can only bang your head up against the nonsense combat pve system CCP allows to continue before you say "screw it, to high sec".
It's like living in South Central LA listening to some Beverely Hills kid complain about how he didn't get as much kaviar as he wanted last night so life is so unfair.
You know what? Im posting here because i got tired too. Tired of all those "facts" that are only opinions from people that know very little about incursion's backstage. Tired of all those leechers claiming that they always do insane isk when they run incursions. Because the truth is that they are not running any incursion. They are being carried through it, which is very different.
Leechers never lost a ship, never did or improved any fit, never had to provide any boost or intel, never had to wait for a fleet or a spot, never had to move lots of stuff to new focus 3 times in the same day, never paid any srp, never got ganked, never lost a contest, never had to change ships to fullfill another role, never did any role at all, never got a mass dc in a tcrc and never ran on an island or low. And despite all of that, they can do hundreds of millions per hour all day long.
I can't. I do incursions for many reasons but isk is not one of them. The fact is: everybody can do more real isk/h in HS just blitzking level 4 and burner missions. Proof and data. But is boring and lonely and the M is for multiplayer. I chose a nomad life in EVE to fleet up with my buddies. I go to incursions to talk with my people, to theorycraft, to test fits and to contest another players.
About balance. After almost 70 pages we have more or less this opinions:
- Remove them from HS, as OP claims. For me this is a bad move because you are removing content. But for those that agree I say: remove them from game. Low and Null incursion pay much better already. Did you any low sec incursion, ever? I did. In the past.
- Reduce payment, risk vs reward, blablabla. I dont care about payment. As i said, im not here for money, so i can live and deal with less payment. But most people are here for money. Today, a HQ site pays a maximum of 31.500.000 isk and 7000 CONCORD LP. My question is: how much should be paid? 20 millions? 10 millions? nothing? Please, next time someone says "reduce payment" give a number with some math backup or STFU. And if someone already did, post the link.
- Let them be, they are fine.
And that's all. Remove, nerf or Status Quo. I have other option.
- Replace them with Drifter incursions. Hell yeah! I want this one. This is the first content that incursions get for a very long time. And we are very excited figuring out how to do beat them like we did with sanshas.
I dont know yet if we can beat Drifters, maybe its not possible, who knows. But I wonder: if we succeed, how many pages will have the thread titled "CCP NERF Drfiters Incursions"?
See all of you ingame, fly safe.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6941
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 13:32:17 -
[1355] - Quote
CEALAlatriste wrote:"facts" The facts are that incursion isk income is the third highest source of ISK in the entire game yet has only a fraction of the player activity. That would be mildly acceptable if you had to expose yourself to risk in order to run an incursion, but you don't, so you get to do all of that under the protection of concord. Personally I think one of 3 things should happen: 1. Concord no longer protects ships in incursion sites. 2. Payout for highsec incursions should be drastically reduced. 3. Incursion sites should be limited to lowsec/null.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13007
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 13:35:42 -
[1356] - Quote
Cannibal Zuza wrote:
So says Miss Knowitall. You just think you have all the answers and that you're always right don't you. I'm not convince that you actually know what you're talking about. In fact to me you just sound like one of those bitter vets who've been playing this game far too long for his/her own good.
This is an amazing amount of butt hurt. And all over the fact that a thing in a video game is rather unbalanced and thus creates some really bad incentives and outcomes. I find this kind of response fascinating, it goes to show how far some people will go to not admit even a small truth if that truth is uncomfortable.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1931
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:01:03 -
[1357] - Quote
what exactly does "contest" mean? you cant aggress another group so what are you doing?
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13008
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:11:06 -
[1358] - Quote
CEALAlatriste wrote:
I dont know yet if we can beat Drifters, maybe its not possible, who knows. But I wonder: if we succeed, how many pages will have the thread titled "CCP NERF Drfiters Incursions"?
When was the last time you saw anyone (me or anyone else) complain about Wormhole income? Top end wormhole income is THE BEST in the game, and everyone is fine with it.
Why? DANGER. Those wormholes are the most dangerous place EVE has, they deserve the best income. That's risk/reward working right. I'm only a wormhole daytripper (I don't really like wormhole PVE), i admire folks who make a life there.
If Drifter Incursions replaced the stale Sansha ones and Incursion runners had to put their money where their mouths were for such a high level of income (8 trill per month) like Wormholers do, I'd feel the same way about them ("us", i run incursions too). No one in their right mind will complain when the income comes from tough , unsafe group PVE where player ships are regularly lost.
Sansha Incursions in high sec get talked about because they are easily survivable and farm-able, enriching a very small clique of high end pve players (like me) to the detriment of everything else in this game except FW missions. You simply can't get mad at us for pointing this out. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13008
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:13:18 -
[1359] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:what exactly does "contest" mean? you cant aggress another group so what are you doing?
Contesting in Incursions means you have more than one group trying to complete the same site. The side that does the most damage to npcs/important structures in the site gets all the pay out. Contesting is on of the few balance point Sansha incursions have, and it's insufficient.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:14:17 -
[1360] - Quote
Raya Su Rollard wrote:I've carefully read the OPs text and I can say all 4 points are FLAWED. I can easily prove it, but I have no incentive to do so. Basically, if CCP ever nerfs incursions or move them to lowsec ( like they did with L5s ), not only almost nobody will do them, but also they would move another ISK faucet to low/NULL sec.
Have to remind everyone that the "Bounties" are already the highest isk faucet in the game and the ratting happen mostly in NULL. There people farm even in supers, worth 20b or simply in carriers, but these things are not well known as tthose who blame the Highsec Incursions either never go NULL or they're simply living in null and hope to make even more money, not just from ratting, but also from incursions.
In conclusion, if they remove the incursions from Highsec, all the isk faucets ( Bounties, DED sites, incursions will be in 0.0 space and very little left in HS.
The problem with incursion isn't that it's a faucet so or course removing them from HS won't solve the faucet problem. Part of the faucet effect of incursion is nullified by the LP generation anyway and I really doubt this was ever taken into account in any faucet/sink graph.
The issue with HS incursion is how they are just head and shoulder above pretty much anything else in term of of income generation while also happening under the protection of CONCORD. To fix this there are effectively 2 way, you nerf the income they generate or you increase the risk. To choose the "right" path to accomplish this, you also have to set legit goals. Stuff like "do you want them to still be run close to as often as they are now?". If you don't care about how often they will get run after you make a change, then any way will work because the real end result is does not matter. Suggestion like "make CONCORD not protect people in sites" would definately lower the income of incursion runners by lowering the bling on their fits which slow down completion time and adding losses which also reduce completion time. The issue is, would the content still be run?
Removing them from HS has a potential similar effect. You don't see people run around to run the ones in LS because the added risk of no CONCORD seems to be too high to form up what essentially amount to a battleship fleet in a beaconed space pocket. Even before they buffed the spawn rate, the low sec one were only occasionally ran because most people could not be bothered to deal with what doing it in LS meant.
Lowering the payout MIGHT work but there are also flaws there. The LP side of of the equation is self balancing. Reducing how many LP you get per sites would lead to an increase of value per LP as the supply drops and the demand for CONCORD LP items is still there. The ISK portion of the payout could be slashed drastically as it's not based on the market. Dropping the ISK payout to a direct 1k ISK : 1 LP would reduce the ISK/sites in a good amount while also technically completely removing the "ISK faucet" element of incursion as you would burn all gained ISK on LP store purchase. Some leftover would more than likely stay as burning exactly all your LP might prove troublesome but it would be a step toward that.
This BTW does not take into account other form of income to which incursion runner who are jsut after good isk/hours figure could turn to. If you nail incursion hard while leaving mission blitzing as it currently is, lot of people would just swap their incursion bling boat to mission bling boat. If CCP ever want to play with relative income of different spaces, they need to take a broad approach or it will just generate a new FOTM. |
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:19:32 -
[1361] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Lan Wang wrote:what exactly does "contest" mean? you cant aggress another group so what are you doing? Contesting in Incursions means you have more than one group trying to complete the same site. The side that does the most damage to npcs/important structures in the site gets all the pay out. Contesting is on of the few balance point Sansha incursions have, and it's insufficient.
They are also the best way to baloon up your isk/hours if you have a better setup than the other side. The percent figure would technically lower your site completion by 49.9% since you don't have to deal with the EHP the other side clear for you. More plausible rate is probably around 30% faster since TPPH for example would still have all the travel time and NRF positioning would be awkward to pull as nicely as it is done now to keep everyone in their optimal ranges with much faster spawning waves.
Talk about making others work for you... |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6941
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:31:47 -
[1362] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Suggestion like "make CONCORD not protect people in sites" would definately lower the income of incursion runners by lowering the bling on their fits which slow down completion time and adding losses which also reduce completion time. The issue is, would the content still be run? The upside to that over removing them from HS though is that bailing out of the content when aggressed is still an option without knowing for sure that every gate out will be camped to catch your evac. Once out of the site, concord protection resumes. Players who are willing to keep an eye out for warning signs of incoming danger or willing to put up a fight would still be able to run them without issues and without rolling blinged ships through lowsec gates.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 14:57:01 -
[1363] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Suggestion like "make CONCORD not protect people in sites" would definately lower the income of incursion runners by lowering the bling on their fits which slow down completion time and adding losses which also reduce completion time. The issue is, would the content still be run? The upside to that over removing them from HS though is that bailing out of the content when aggressed is still an option without knowing for sure that every gate out will be camped to catch your evac. Once out of the site, concord protection resumes. Players who are willing to keep an eye out for warning signs of incoming danger or willing to put up a fight would still be able to run them without issues and without rolling blinged ships through lowsec gates.
It would depend on who get what flag following the implementation of different CONCORD behaviour on different grid across a system. Logi getting a flag for repping token damage on a ship and making them valid target would get silly real fast for example. |
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
22
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 15:34:08 -
[1364] - Quote
I doubt CCP agrees theres a problem with HS incursions, seeing that they deliberately located a high profit feature in an area accessible to all. Which, obviously, is the very idea of HS incursions? |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1932
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 15:36:13 -
[1365] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:I doubt CCP agrees theres a problem with HS incursions, seeing that they deliberately located a high profit feature in an area accessible to all. Which, obviously, is the very idea of HS incursions?
if enough people moan about a thing then ccp will be forced to change the thing to stop people moaning about the thing
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
108
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 15:47:36 -
[1366] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:I doubt CCP agrees theres a problem with HS incursions, seeing that they deliberately located a high profit feature in an area accessible to all. Which, obviously, is the very idea of HS incursions? if enough people moan about a thing then ccp will be forced to change the thing to stop people moaning about the thing
Are you kidding me? I thought this whole time CCP were in their volcano lair in Iceland trying to come up with ways to fill their tear jar.
In seriousness though incursions are broken, CCP can't have intended them to be so perfected by players that they can be run without losses. Sort of reminds me of the situation with Supercap costs way back before every man and his dog owned one. Payouts could be lowered to 20m per HQ site and they would still be quite profitable. 20m per site at 15 mins per site works out at 80m / hr ignoring LP which can be left as is probably. Lowering LP payouts would only make LP store items more expensive and thats not the goal here. People running incursions for fun (if true) can continue to do so.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Valacus
Streets of Fire
42
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 15:53:37 -
[1367] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:The problem with incursion isn't that it's a faucet so or course removing them from HS won't solve the faucet problem. Part of the faucet effect of incursion is nullified by the LP generation anyway and I really doubt this was ever taken into account in any faucet/sink graph.
That isn't even remotely true. No one has definitely proven that high sec incursions > all. The fact it's the 3rd highest ISK faucet just means that it gets used a lot, not that it pumps out ISK like candy. As discussed before, the reason it gets used a lot is because the incursions runners are well organized, and that is purely out of necessity. Incursions don't happen without organization period. It's also a safe bet to make ISK, it's a group activity, and it's way more engaging that Ishtar/carrier ratting, so there's more incentive to do it. No one needs or bothers with fleeting up to rat in nullsec. It's more profitable to do it solo and just plain easier. I run incursions because they are less mind numbing than spamming havens.
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Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
22
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 15:59:18 -
[1368] - Quote
People are engaging in a proftable group activity in highsec. Nerf and wardec everything.
/forum |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13010
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 15:59:43 -
[1369] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:
In seriousness though incursions are broken, CCP can't have intended them to be so perfected by players that they can be run without losses.
I totally think this is why Drifter Incursions are a thing. What remains to be seen is if CCP has the courage to pull the trigger on this.
Quote: Sort of reminds me of the situation with Supercap costs way back before every man and his dog owned one. Payouts could be lowered to 20m per HQ site and they would still be quite profitable. 20m per site at 15 mins per site works out at 80m / hr ignoring LP which can be left as is probably. Lowering LP payouts would only make LP store items more expensive and thats not the goal here. People running incursions for fun (if true) can continue to do so.
Problem is, it's a lie they tell themselves. Back before the 1st incursion nerf (yep, incursions were worse than they are now ..), High Sec Incursions runners on this very forum proclaimed "it's about the fun and the community, not the isk".
CCP nerfed the isk.
Entire Incursion Running Communities died overnight...
So much for "it's not the isk" lol. The truth is most incursion runners (and i'm as guilty of this as the rest) are Fair-Weather incursion runners who are ONLY doing them for the isk. Many of us dislike how stale incursions are and think they are boring (I limit myself to 4 sites per run even though I could go longer, like this i burn out slower), but the money is too good to pas up for long.
I say bring on them Drifters. i don't mind losing the occasional tech BS or BC to make some isk The EVEBORG Drifters. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13010
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:01:34 -
[1370] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:People are engaging in a proftable group activity in highsec. Nerf and wardec everything.
/forum
People are engaging in an activity that pays to well, so well that it attracts outsiders (ie people who don't live in high sec) to do them rather than sit around and make less in their own areas of null or low sec. Balance them with more risk/ ship oss or less isk.
/Discussion
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6941
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:08:57 -
[1371] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:It would depend on who get what flag following the implementation of different CONCORD behaviour on different grid across a system. Logi getting a flag for repping token damage on a ship and making them valid target would get silly real fast for example. I was thinking no flags, as in the deadspace area is effectively nullsec and once you warp away you are safe. It would allow people to disrupt the incursions and fight if people are slow, not paying attention or want to fight, but have no other effect on the players or system.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
22
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:09:05 -
[1372] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:People are engaging in a proftable group activity in highsec. Nerf and wardec everything.
/forum People are engaging in an activity that pays to well, so well that it attracts outsiders (ie people who don't live in high sec) to do them rather than sit around and make less in their own areas of null or low sec. Balance them with more risk/ ship oss or less isk. /Discussion High risk/smaller profit means less/no attendance. Of which EvE got more than its share. Im sure, for once, CCP is happy to try and provide an impulse to get a wider range of people engaged.
This thread is silly. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6941
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:13:51 -
[1373] - Quote
Valacus wrote:That isn't even remotely true. No one has definitely proven that high sec incursions > all. The fact it's the 3rd highest ISK faucet just means that it gets used a lot, not that it pumps out ISK like candy. Except of course that handy graph that shows that it's only 1.5% of player activity. If it were a much larger chunk of player activity, then it being 3rd on that list would be less of a worry, but since it is a low use activity, and it is third on that list - and that doesn't even include LP rewards - then it's fairly obvious there's a problem.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
Amber Starview
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:35:01 -
[1374] - Quote
I will never vote to remove any content in eve .....if you think it's op then you are foolish to not be doing it yourself
Other than that eve needs more content not less . |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1932
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:37:37 -
[1375] - Quote
Amber Starview wrote:I will never vote to remove any content in eve .....if you think it's op then you are foolish to not be doing it yourself
Other than that eve needs more content not less .
yes lets all do incursions, everyone in eve for a week do incursions and see what happens.
Yes more content, make incursion runners be in corps so they can be wardecced like everyone else, same for lvl 4 missions
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6941
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:38:03 -
[1376] - Quote
Amber Starview wrote:I will never vote to remove any content in eve .....if you think it's op then you are foolish to not be doing it yourself
Other than that eve needs more content not less. What about moving, adjusting or balancing content? I don't think anyone wants incursions to stop existing, they just want the risk to be in line with the rewards.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
109
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:38:44 -
[1377] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:People are engaging in a proftable group activity in highsec. Nerf and wardec everything.
/forum People are engaging in an activity that pays to well, so well that it attracts outsiders (ie people who don't live in high sec) to do them rather than sit around and make less in their own areas of null or low sec. Balance them with more risk/ ship oss or less isk. /Discussion High risk/smaller profit means less/no attendance. Of which EvE got more than its share. Im sure, for once, CCP is happy to try and provide an impulse to get a wider range of people engaged. This thread is silly.
If you're only attending to fill your wallet then your disappearance from eve likely won't be noticed. Are you suddenly going to unsubscribe if your income falls from 120m/hr to something closer to 60-80m?
The issue has been brought up that if payouts are lowered then nobody would actually run incursions anymore, and this is a valid concern since most people are only running them for the isk. I don't see less incursion runners as a bad thing though, they contribute no gameplay anyway.
Now the people who actually are behind organising communities and fleets I can see an argument for them getting something. Perhaps Sansha rats could drop loot that can be picked up to fund the actual incursion community. For example say TVP are running a fleet, they finish a site and move to the nex one leaving behind a room full of wrecks; a looter/salvager could then come along and pick up loot for a group fund. Community leadership can then divide up this income among their core members that keep fleets running and let "leechers" only earn the payouts. That way you have a difference between the income available to those who do and don't contribute.
A case for more AoE in EvE
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13010
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:39:16 -
[1378] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:People are engaging in a proftable group activity in highsec. Nerf and wardec everything.
/forum People are engaging in an activity that pays to well, so well that it attracts outsiders (ie people who don't live in high sec) to do them rather than sit around and make less in their own areas of null or low sec. Balance them with more risk/ ship oss or less isk. /Discussion High risk/smaller profit means less/no attendance. Of which EvE got more than its share. Im sure, for once, CCP is happy to try and provide an impulse to get a wider range of people engaged. This thread is silly.
What's silly is trying to mask one's own self interest behind the idea it's somehow good for "a wider range of people". Broken is Broken.
Since when is "a wider range of people" no more than1.5% of players on any given day? As for CCP, lets just say that they are becoming more aware of these issues as time goes on (notice CCP Quant's surprise, and even before that, work on things like Drifter Incursions?). |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
42
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 16:45:13 -
[1379] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Valacus wrote:That isn't even remotely true. No one has definitely proven that high sec incursions > all. The fact it's the 3rd highest ISK faucet just means that it gets used a lot, not that it pumps out ISK like candy. Except of course that handy graph that shows that it's only 1.5% of player activity. If it were a much larger chunk of player activity, then it being 3rd on that list would be less of a worry, but since it is a low use activity, and it is third on that list - and that doesn't even include LP rewards - then it's fairly obvious there's a problem.
That still doesn't prove that running incursions is more lucrative than any other venture, only that people who do run incursions do a lot of it. You're still making assumptions that are neither proven nor true. The only "problem" is in your head, because you don't like high sec incursions. Well, don't run them then. Go ahead and AFK Ishtar. Lots of people prefer Ishtar ratting over incursions. So what? The fact that people are more willing to run incursions for long hours than they are to rat in nullsec for long hours just means incursions runners are more dedicated. Again, so what? All of the "problems" you see with incursions are all imaginary, and all of the solutions to said problems are all equally as imaginary. The only thing you'll do be removing incursions is remove content from the game. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6941
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:02:25 -
[1380] - Quote
Valacus wrote:That still doesn't prove that running incursions is more lucrative than any other venture, only that people who do run incursions do a lot of it. You're still making assumptions that are neither proven nor true. The only "problem" is in your head, because you don't like high sec incursions. Well, don't run them then. Go ahead and AFK Ishtar. Lots of people prefer Ishtar ratting over incursions. So what? The fact that people are more willing to run incursions for long hours than they are to rat in nullsec for long hours just means incursions runners are more dedicated. Again, so what? All of the "problems" you see with incursions are all imaginary, and all of the solutions to said problems are all equally as imaginary. The only thing you'll do be removing incursions is remove content from the game. LOL, my only problem is that incursions do rake in far too much isk for their risk. We know for a fact that incursions rake in a huge amount of isk. That's not even up for debate, and if you're going to sit there and pretend the income is comparable with other PVE sources of isk, then that truly is laughable. The problem comes down to the risk you have to gain that isk, which is to say almost none. I'm totally happy for you to keep the level of income which is above that of a null ratter. But to access that income you should have to be vulnerable to attack, i.e. in lowsec. Fair?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
|
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Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
22
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:05:59 -
[1381] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:People are engaging in a proftable group activity in highsec. Nerf and wardec everything.
/forum People are engaging in an activity that pays to well, so well that it attracts outsiders (ie people who don't live in high sec) to do them rather than sit around and make less in their own areas of null or low sec. Balance them with more risk/ ship oss or less isk. /Discussion High risk/smaller profit means less/no attendance. Of which EvE got more than its share. Im sure, for once, CCP is happy to try and provide an impulse to get a wider range of people engaged. This thread is silly. If you're only attending to fill your wallet then your disappearance from eve likely won't be noticed. Are you suddenly going to unsubscribe if your income falls from 120m/hr to something closer to 60-80m? The issue has been brought up that if payouts are lowered then nobody would actually run incursions anymore, and this is a valid concern since most people are only running them for the isk. I don't see less incursion runners as a bad thing though, they contribute no gameplay anyway. Now the people who actually are behind organising communities and fleets I can see an argument for them getting something. Perhaps Sansha rats could drop loot that can be picked up to fund the actual incursion community. For example say TVP are running a fleet, they finish a site and move to the nex one leaving behind a room full of wrecks; a looter/salvager could then come along and pick up loot for a group fund. Community leadership can then divide up this income among their core members that keep fleets running and let "leechers" only earn the payouts. That way you have a difference between the income available to those who do and don't contribute. Incursion fleets dont contribute gameplay? Ok, sir.
Safe flights |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
110
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:35:56 -
[1382] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:People are engaging in a proftable group activity in highsec. Nerf and wardec everything.
/forum People are engaging in an activity that pays to well, so well that it attracts outsiders (ie people who don't live in high sec) to do them rather than sit around and make less in their own areas of null or low sec. Balance them with more risk/ ship oss or less isk. /Discussion High risk/smaller profit means less/no attendance. Of which EvE got more than its share. Im sure, for once, CCP is happy to try and provide an impulse to get a wider range of people engaged. This thread is silly. If you're only attending to fill your wallet then your disappearance from eve likely won't be noticed. Are you suddenly going to unsubscribe if your income falls from 120m/hr to something closer to 60-80m? The issue has been brought up that if payouts are lowered then nobody would actually run incursions anymore, and this is a valid concern since most people are only running them for the isk. I don't see less incursion runners as a bad thing though, they contribute no gameplay anyway. Now the people who actually are behind organising communities and fleets I can see an argument for them getting something. Perhaps Sansha rats could drop loot that can be picked up to fund the actual incursion community. For example say TVP are running a fleet, they finish a site and move to the nex one leaving behind a room full of wrecks; a looter/salvager could then come along and pick up loot for a group fund. Community leadership can then divide up this income among their core members that keep fleets running and let "leechers" only earn the payouts. That way you have a difference between the income available to those who do and don't contribute. Incursion fleets dont contribute gameplay? Ok, sir. Safe flights
I know you consider stuffing your wallet gameplay but it's not very meaningful or engaging is it?
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
22
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:48:01 -
[1383] - Quote
How come you know such things? I have yet to participate in an incursion event. And I have yet to encounter meaningful content in EvE other than an aesthetically pleasing and calming scenery. As far as im concerned this game is stagnant and kudos to CCP for trying to stir things a bit.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13011
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:50:50 -
[1384] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:How come you know such things? I have yet to participate in an incursion event. And I have yet to encounter meaningful content in EvE other than an aesthetically pleasing and calming scenery. As far as im concerned this game is stagnant and kudos to CCP for trying to stir things a bit.
If you haven't experienced firsthand the content, mechanics and events that are unbalanced enough for veteran players to have this discussion, why did you feel the need to comment?
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Daerrol
Death By Design Did he say Jump
268
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:53:09 -
[1385] - Quote
Content: Locking up a target, over heating the "High" and "Medium" racks, hitting a Aproach, F1, then hiding under my blanket till it's over. |
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
22
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 17:54:00 -
[1386] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:How come you know such things? I have yet to participate in an incursion event. And I have yet to encounter meaningful content in EvE other than an aesthetically pleasing and calming scenery. As far as im concerned this game is stagnant and kudos to CCP for trying to stir things a bit.
If you haven't experienced firsthand the content, mechanics and events that are unbalanced enough for veteran players to have this discussion, why did you feel the need to comment? Where did I say I didnt experience the event? |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13011
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 18:11:49 -
[1387] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:How come you know such things? I have yet to participate in an incursion event. And I have yet to encounter meaningful content in EvE other than an aesthetically pleasing and calming scenery. As far as im concerned this game is stagnant and kudos to CCP for trying to stir things a bit.
If you haven't experienced firsthand the content, mechanics and events that are unbalanced enough for veteran players to have this discussion, why did you feel the need to comment? Where did I say I didnt experience the event?
?
|
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
24
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 18:28:26 -
[1388] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:How come you know such things? I have yet to participate in an incursion event. And I have yet to encounter meaningful content in EvE other than an aesthetically pleasing and calming scenery. As far as im concerned this game is stagnant and kudos to CCP for trying to stir things a bit.
If you haven't experienced firsthand the content, mechanics and events that are unbalanced enough for veteran players to have this discussion, why did you feel the need to comment? Where did I say I didnt experience the event? ? Are you being deliberately dense? |
Nick Bete
The Scope Gallente Federation
376
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 18:28:48 -
[1389] - Quote
Lord in Heaven why is this stupid ass thread still going?
You null bigots are pissed off that high sec is more than a noob training area and that (GASP!) many people actually like the low stress playstyle in high and are able to generate enough in-game money to pay for their accounts. Guess what? Deal with it. CCP's not listening to you and is not stupid enough to make game design or business decisions based on your forum whines.
These moronic "nerf high sec" threads filled with opinions and agendas dressed up as facts have been going on for as long as I've been in the game. Thankfully CCP isn't populated by numbskulls who demand that everything they don't personally like be nerfed. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13011
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 18:38:38 -
[1390] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:How come you know such things? I have yet to participate in an incursion event. And I have yet to encounter meaningful content in EvE other than an aesthetically pleasing and calming scenery. As far as im concerned this game is stagnant and kudos to CCP for trying to stir things a bit.
If you haven't experienced firsthand the content, mechanics and events that are unbalanced enough for veteran players to have this discussion, why did you feel the need to comment? Where did I say I didnt experience the event? ? Are you being deliberately dense?
Hey yall, i had to take my troll radar to the shop because it got broken when I turned it on while reading reddit. So i can't tell, it's this guy trolling me, or what? |
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Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
24
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Posted - 2015.11.25 18:42:11 -
[1391] - Quote
My bad for responding to the forum troll. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 18:45:33 -
[1392] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Hey yall, i had to take my troll radar to the shop because it got broken when I turned it on while reading reddit. So i can't tell, it's this guy trolling me, or what?
I can't compute that serie of quotes. No help from me... |
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
24
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 18:51:06 -
[1393] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:My bad for responding to the forum troll. You could clarify WTF you meant instead of calling others trolls... I experienced the event, but did not partcipate. What part needs clarcification in the mind of a Goon? |
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
24
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 18:51:54 -
[1394] - Quote
Delete please |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
110
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 19:20:34 -
[1395] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:My bad for responding to the forum troll. You could clarify WTF you meant instead of calling others trolls...
Unless of course, he's a troll.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6941
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 19:39:33 -
[1396] - Quote
Don't worry guys, I got this
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:My bad for responding to the forum troll. You could clarify WTF you meant instead of calling others trolls... I experienced the event, but did not partcipate. What part needs clarcification in the mind of a Goon? The problem is that you don't seem to know what "firsthand" means.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
24
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 19:56:05 -
[1397] - Quote
Indeed.
Looking forward to the next ingenious nurf HS Concord/mission/miner/npc corp thread.
Love |
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
706
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 20:43:18 -
[1398] - Quote
Nick Bete wrote:Lord in Heaven why is this stupid ass thread still going?
You null bigots are pissed off that high sec is more than a noob training area and that (GASP!) many people actually like the low stress playstyle in high and are able to generate enough in-game money to pay for their accounts. Guess what? Deal with it. CCP's not listening to you and is not stupid enough to make game design or business decisions based on your forum whines.
These moronic "nerf high sec" threads filled with opinions and agendas dressed up as facts have been going on for as long as I've been in the game. Thankfully CCP isn't populated by numbskulls who demand that everything they don't personally like be nerfed.
Yes.
I find it hilariously tilted that income is higher, safer, and more accessible in high sec than it is in null or low. How are people supposed to be struggling for things in a dystopian, might makes right sandbox when they are basically handed it all in High Sec?
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Urziel99
Unified Research and Industrial
130
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 02:41:38 -
[1399] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Nick Bete wrote:Lord in Heaven why is this stupid ass thread still going?
You null bigots are pissed off that high sec is more than a noob training area and that (GASP!) many people actually like the low stress playstyle in high and are able to generate enough in-game money to pay for their accounts. Guess what? Deal with it. CCP's not listening to you and is not stupid enough to make game design or business decisions based on your forum whines.
These moronic "nerf high sec" threads filled with opinions and agendas dressed up as facts have been going on for as long as I've been in the game. Thankfully CCP isn't populated by numbskulls who demand that everything they don't personally like be nerfed. Yes. I find it hilariously tilted that income is higher, safer, and more accessible in high sec than it is in null or low. How are people supposed to be struggling for things in a dystopian, might makes right sandbox when they are basically handed it all in High Sec?
And I find it hilarious that instead of campaigning to make their own areas better, bitter and self-interested posters insist on crapping in someone else's cheerios.
Look to your own problems if the money isn't in lawless space.
But it's not about the money is it? It's about the needs of some people to make targets out of others for no other reason then their own gratification. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15253
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 04:01:00 -
[1400] - Quote
Urziel99 wrote: And I find it hilarious that instead of campaigning to make their own areas better, bitter and self-interested posters insist on crapping in someone else's cheerios.
Because increasing everyone else's income, as opposed to just lowering the biggest offender, not only causes massive inflation, but also severely devalues the relative earning power of new players.
You might want to **** all over new players just to keep your risk free fountain of income, but it's not going to happen that way.
Quote: But it's not about the money is it? It's about the needs of some people to make targets out of others for no other reason then their own gratification.
Waah. Cry more, carebear. Your days of suckling the golden teat are numbered. CCP can't ignore it forever, and it's frankly a miracle that incursions still exist at all given how broken they are.
If you want more reward, you should have to accept more risk. If you won't, you should have second class income.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13012
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 05:00:57 -
[1401] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Because increasing everyone else's income, as opposed to just lowering the biggest offender, not only causes massive inflation, but also severely devalues the relative earning power of new players.
You might want to **** all over new players just to keep your risk free fountain of income, but it's not going to happen that way.
Well said. isn't it amazing how high sec posters are all "think of the children" until the children start tugging at their wallets lol.
This is why Null doesn't need more isk. It would be selfish as all hell to say "pour more isk into my personal wallet" which is what a null buff would do. The selfish person thinks everyone is as selfish as them, and they can't understand when someone has a concern about something they actually participate in (lke how some of us who run incursions are honest enough to say "hey, this is a bit too good"). |
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
708
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 05:51:49 -
[1402] - Quote
Urziel99 wrote:Look to your own problems if the money isn't in lawless space.
I don't know how many times I have repeatedly pointed out that Syndicate is one of the most violent regions in the game (by the latest dev blog, 0.5T) but one of the poorest (0.18T).
I don't know how many times I have advocated and expressed the issues of the residents of Syndicate; they are dependent on alts and earning money in other areas, because NPC nullsec grossly under supports its players and its play style. Having to have alts and spend most of your time outside of the region you live in is bad for the game overall and asphyxiates local content.
This also hamstrings small and new groups, as they have no way to grow.
It's been done. To death. New Eden is an organic system and everything is interrelated, and relative to each other. Even if they buffed NPC null up to the levels of income attainable in HiSec, it would still be insufficient, relatively speaking, as you would still be better off doing it in Hi Sec.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1027
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 06:05:39 -
[1403] - Quote
Funny that people get upset when the cash cow is going to die. Its about time. No risk no reward or at least 90% lower reward. And farming the side and leave the mother ship alive is just plain nonsense.
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
352
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 06:26:54 -
[1404] - Quote
How about allowing Covert Cynos to be lit in HS Incursion Systems?
That could be fun.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17042
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 09:07:10 -
[1405] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:How about allowing Covert Cynos to be lit in HS Incursion Systems?
That could be fun.
What are the blops going to do once they drop?, concord will still happyslap them with nukes.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 09:10:51 -
[1406] - Quote
This thread has gone from remove hi-sec incursions into nerfing all hi-sec income into the ground.
It's an all nullbear crybabies rantfest now and should be locked down.
Reporting this garbage thread for ranting!! |
Lan Wang
Knights of the posing meat FETID
1935
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 09:12:47 -
[1407] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:How about allowing Covert Cynos to be lit in HS Incursion Systems?
That could be fun.
what are blops going to do against an incursion fleet?
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
111
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 09:33:10 -
[1408] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:This thread has gone from remove hi-sec incursions into nerfing all hi-sec income into the ground.
It's an all nullbear crybabies rantfest now and should be locked down.
Reporting this garbage thread for ranting!!
I don't know what you mean, the discussion has been focused around incursions this whole time. It's very difficult to argue against a brick wall, not that you are a brick wall but others in this thread are in so much denial it's almost funny. I don't know if they realise that the income we're talking about is completely imaginary. It's tough not to rant when you're saying the same things again and again and people just say "but muh isk".
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
255
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 09:46:33 -
[1409] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:This thread has gone from remove hi-sec incursions into nerfing all hi-sec income into the ground.
It's an all nullbear crybabies rantfest now and should be locked down.
Reporting this garbage thread for ranting!! I don't know what you mean, the discussion has been focused around incursions this whole time. It's very difficult to argue against a brick wall, not that you are a brick wall but others in this thread are in so much denial it's almost funny. I don't know if they realise that the income we're talking about is completely imaginary. It's tough not to rant when you're saying the same things again and again and people just say "but muh isk".
I was actually referring to Jenn since she is the source of all the ranting! All her posts should be deleted!!
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Lan Wang
Knights of the posing meat FETID
1935
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 09:49:22 -
[1410] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:This thread has gone from remove hi-sec incursions into nerfing all hi-sec income into the ground.
It's an all nullbear crybabies rantfest now and should be locked down.
Reporting this garbage thread for ranting!! I don't know what you mean, the discussion has been focused around incursions this whole time. It's very difficult to argue against a brick wall, not that you are a brick wall but others in this thread are in so much denial it's almost funny. I don't know if they realise that the income we're talking about is completely imaginary. It's tough not to rant when you're saying the same things again and again and people just say "but muh isk". I was actually referring to Jenn since she is the source of all the ranting! All her posts should be deleted!!
atleast its constructive unlike your own posts
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
256
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 13:24:40 -
[1411] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:This thread has gone from remove hi-sec incursions into nerfing all hi-sec income into the ground.
It's an all nullbear crybabies rantfest now and should be locked down.
Reporting this garbage thread for ranting!! I don't know what you mean, the discussion has been focused around incursions this whole time. It's very difficult to argue against a brick wall, not that you are a brick wall but others in this thread are in so much denial it's almost funny. I don't know if they realise that the income we're talking about is completely imaginary. It's tough not to rant when you're saying the same things again and again and people just say "but muh isk". I was actually referring to Jenn since she is the source of all the ranting! All her posts should be deleted!! atleast its constructive unlike your own posts
You are correct......because I'm not a ranter.
There is no such thing as a constructive post in a rant thread. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1935
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 13:40:15 -
[1412] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Mr Mieyli wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:This thread has gone from remove hi-sec incursions into nerfing all hi-sec income into the ground.
It's an all nullbear crybabies rantfest now and should be locked down.
Reporting this garbage thread for ranting!! I don't know what you mean, the discussion has been focused around incursions this whole time. It's very difficult to argue against a brick wall, not that you are a brick wall but others in this thread are in so much denial it's almost funny. I don't know if they realise that the income we're talking about is completely imaginary. It's tough not to rant when you're saying the same things again and again and people just say "but muh isk". I was actually referring to Jenn since she is the source of all the ranting! All her posts should be deleted!! atleast its constructive unlike your own posts You are correct......because I'm not a ranter. There is no such thing as a constructive post in a rant thread.
Highlighted your own rant for ya ok
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
24
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 14:02:57 -
[1413] - Quote
This thread should have been closed awhile ago. Noone wants a 70 page anti-HS rantfest.
Ridiculous. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 14:07:39 -
[1414] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:My bad for responding to the forum troll. You could clarify WTF you meant instead of calling others trolls... I experienced the event, but did not partcipate. What part needs clarcification in the mind of a Goon?
So you have never seen how the income flow while running them or the risk level faced when running them. You just somehow flew in a system where an incursion was under way and potentially faced some rats un-prepared.
Thanks for having an opinion on it I guess... |
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
25
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 14:19:57 -
[1415] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:My bad for responding to the forum troll. You could clarify WTF you meant instead of calling others trolls... I experienced the event, but did not partcipate. What part needs clarcification in the mind of a Goon? So you have never seen how the income flow while running them or the risk level faced when running them. You just somehow flew in a system where an incursion was under way and potentially faced some rats un-prepared. Thanks for having an opinion on it I guess... Im having an opinion on CCP installment of events where the fast majority of EvEs population is located and where everyone has access to the events. To me this is CCP coming to terms with the reality of this game. As well as an attempt to stir people into action.
How I came to wittness the engagements doesnt touch on this at all.
Regards |
Daerrol
Death By Design Did he say Jump
268
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 15:52:16 -
[1416] - Quote
Sansha Incursion are fine. If they pay so much ISK why aren't -you- running them? |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
112
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 15:54:40 -
[1417] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:My bad for responding to the forum troll. You could clarify WTF you meant instead of calling others trolls... I experienced the event, but did not partcipate. What part needs clarcification in the mind of a Goon? So you have never seen how the income flow while running them or the risk level faced when running them. You just somehow flew in a system where an incursion was under way and potentially faced some rats un-prepared. Thanks for having an opinion on it I guess... Im having an opinion on CCP installment of events where the fast majority of EvEs population is located and where everyone has access to the events. To me this is CCP coming to terms with the reality of this game. As well as an attempt to stir people into action. How I came to wittness the engagements doesnt touch on this at all. Regards
I still have no idea what event you have witnessed and suppose I will die still not knowing. Please do not post in this thread unless you have something of value to add, repeating the same old statements again and again only buries quality posts among this 70 page monster.
By value to add I mean concrete specific examples that validate your opinion. Many examples have been brought up as to why incursion payouts should be lowered. I have yet to see one reason why they should be left as is. I know you think that we just don't understand you or that we are out to get you but I can assure you there is no "them" or "us" and the people posting reasons for nerfing payouts have valid reasons for their opinions.
A case for more AoE in EvE
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13015
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 16:03:39 -
[1418] - Quote
Johan Civire wrote:Funny that people get upset when the cash cow is going to die. Its about time. No risk no reward or at least 90% lower reward. And farming the side and leave the mother ship alive is just plain nonsense.
That's one of those unintended consequences. People should be punished for letting the MOM live, not rewarded. So at the very least rewards should start to decay the longer you let the mothership live.
The original (flawed) idea CCP had for incursions is that pick up groups of local would form to fight them off so as to return their constellation to normalcy. That never happened, what did happen is roving gangs of isk hungry vagabonds formed formal 'communites' to farm isk for as long as possible. Incursion rewards would be fine if not for the over farming, and over farming only happens because the system offers no penalty for letting the Incursion's "boss" live as long as possible.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
17042
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 16:04:56 -
[1419] - Quote
Daerrol wrote:Sansha Incursion are fine. If they pay so much ISK why aren't -you- running them?
We are, that's the problem.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13016
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 16:08:12 -
[1420] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:My bad for responding to the forum troll. You could clarify WTF you meant instead of calling others trolls... I experienced the event, but did not partcipate. What part needs clarcification in the mind of a Goon? So you have never seen how the income flow while running them or the risk level faced when running them. You just somehow flew in a system where an incursion was under way and potentially faced some rats un-prepared. Thanks for having an opinion on it I guess... Im having an opinion on CCP installment of events where the fast majority of EvEs population is located and where everyone has access to the events. To me this is CCP coming to terms with the reality of this game. As well as an attempt to stir people into action. How I came to wittness the engagements doesnt touch on this at all. Regards
And yet on any given day only 1.5% of players will engage in this activity that pumps out the 3rd largest isk faucet in the game (when ii takes WAY more people the generate the 1st and 2nd).
But somehow that's ok but it seems to an uniformed person that CCP seems to be catering to the high sec crowd. They aren't btw, Incursion runners are HARD CORE players farming in multi billion isk ships casual can't afford, the isk for those ships usually coming from null sec because a huge portion of incursion runners are null sec alts. Join any TVP or WTM fleet and ask on their comms if you don't belive this.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2405
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 16:14:04 -
[1421] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Johan Civire wrote:Funny that people get upset when the cash cow is going to die. Its about time. No risk no reward or at least 90% lower reward. And farming the side and leave the mother ship alive is just plain nonsense.
That's one of those unintended consequences. People should be punished for letting the MOM live, not rewarded. So at the very least rewards should start to decay the longer you let the mothership live. The original (flawed) idea CCP had for incursions is that pick up groups of local would form to fight them off so as to return their constellation to normalcy. That never happened, what did happen is roving gangs of isk hungry vagabonds formed formal 'communites' to farm isk for as long as possible. Incursion rewards would be fine if not for the over farming, and over farming only happens because the system offers no penalty for letting the Incursion's "boss" live as long as possible.
Nobody is attached the the constellation in HS since anything you do can be done 3 system away in another constellation. People don't push to close them fast because there is also no need to.
Cyno inhibition in null is a big deal and needs to be cleared in many constellation ASAP. In HS, meh...
Rats from incursion on gates in null pose a real danger. In HS, lolololololololololol...
Bounties cutoff on rat matter somewhat in null. In HS, well I guess I can go mission for agent Y instead of X...
There is just no point to killing it faster. Hell even if you made the payout go down, people would figure how long they can farm more sites before killing it to optimise their gain taking into account the slowly increasing penalty and then, it's respawn time!!! |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13016
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 16:16:51 -
[1422] - Quote
Daerrol wrote:Sansha Incursion are fine. If they pay so much ISK why aren't -you- running them?
It's like people can't read English. Throughout this thread people have talked about how lots of incursin runners are actually null sec peple playing on alts (like me).
Like Baltec said. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. High sec incursions are so good they attract people like us when they should be content for local high sec players to use to get better rewards than they can get from mission running.
Then people will go "well, that's because null sucks, BUFF NULL", but that's stupid for 2 reasons:
If you buff null, its the EXACT same as nerfing high sec, because eventually prices will rise to accommodate all that increased isk null sec players make
And
For the reason above, buffing null is bad for the game, which means the only option is actually fixing the actual problem, that high sec incursions are too good for where they are.
High Sec people can be really short sighted and don't understand that by nerfing this cash cow for 1.5% of players on any given day, it make sit better for everyone (including maybe even incursion runners). LP will be less depressed across the board because some rich incursion runners isn't converting LP to get BPCs out of YOUR LP store that you grinded missions to get access to. Fewer null sec people will be in high sec reaping high sec rewards. Incursions will be shorter allowing people who actually LIVE in an affected high sec constellation to get back to the missioning , exploring and mining they enjoy. etc etc.
But hey, don't let any of the above stop you from supporting a broken status quo that basically screws up the game.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13016
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 16:18:20 -
[1423] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Johan Civire wrote:Funny that people get upset when the cash cow is going to die. Its about time. No risk no reward or at least 90% lower reward. And farming the side and leave the mother ship alive is just plain nonsense.
That's one of those unintended consequences. People should be punished for letting the MOM live, not rewarded. So at the very least rewards should start to decay the longer you let the mothership live. The original (flawed) idea CCP had for incursions is that pick up groups of local would form to fight them off so as to return their constellation to normalcy. That never happened, what did happen is roving gangs of isk hungry vagabonds formed formal 'communites' to farm isk for as long as possible. Incursion rewards would be fine if not for the over farming, and over farming only happens because the system offers no penalty for letting the Incursion's "boss" live as long as possible. Nobody is attached the the constellation in HS since anything you do can be done 3 system away in another constellation. People don't push to close them fast because there is also no need to. ]
This is not true. Go to Dotlan and see where most the NPC kills are. Hint, SOE agents aren't found everywhere.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2405
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 16:29:25 -
[1424] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Johan Civire wrote:Funny that people get upset when the cash cow is going to die. Its about time. No risk no reward or at least 90% lower reward. And farming the side and leave the mother ship alive is just plain nonsense.
That's one of those unintended consequences. People should be punished for letting the MOM live, not rewarded. So at the very least rewards should start to decay the longer you let the mothership live. The original (flawed) idea CCP had for incursions is that pick up groups of local would form to fight them off so as to return their constellation to normalcy. That never happened, what did happen is roving gangs of isk hungry vagabonds formed formal 'communites' to farm isk for as long as possible. Incursion rewards would be fine if not for the over farming, and over farming only happens because the system offers no penalty for letting the Incursion's "boss" live as long as possible. Nobody is attached the the constellation in HS since anything you do can be done 3 system away in another constellation. People don't push to close them fast because there is also no need to. ] This is not true. Go to Dotlan and see where most the NPC kills are. Hint, SOE agents aren't found everywhere.
You can go to another SOE agent if "yours" is under incursion. CCP should make a test and put incursion in all system where SoE has an agent and see if it gets cleared faster or not. |
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 16:32:46 -
[1425] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:And yet on any given day only 1.5% of players will engage in this activity that pumps out the 3rd largest isk faucet in the game (when ii takes WAY more people the generate the 1st and 2nd).
But somehow that's ok but it seems to an uniformed person that CCP seems to be catering to the high sec crowd. They aren't btw, Incursion runners are HARD CORE players farming in multi billion isk ships casual can't afford, the isk for those ships usually coming from null sec because a huge portion of incursion runners are null sec alts. Join any TVP or WTM fleet and ask on their comms if you don't belive this.
That poses a problem for all mmo. 24/7 "hardcore" multi-acc cashing etc etc players will always generate the most ingame currencies. What should be the recourse of the defs? Starving the game of worthwhile content/events? What if CCP nerfs incursions? Would it keep these people from overblown isk generation elsewhere? Personally, I dont want to see the game deprived of content, of features and ideas, because some folks are mmo overachievers.
If things are that bad CCP should introduce a cap for incursions, sure. Perhaps a dev might want to acknowledge the topic to validate the concerns. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1937
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 16:42:30 -
[1426] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:And yet on any given day only 1.5% of players will engage in this activity that pumps out the 3rd largest isk faucet in the game (when ii takes WAY more people the generate the 1st and 2nd).
But somehow that's ok but it seems to an uniformed person that CCP seems to be catering to the high sec crowd. They aren't btw, Incursion runners are HARD CORE players farming in multi billion isk ships casual can't afford, the isk for those ships usually coming from null sec because a huge portion of incursion runners are null sec alts. Join any TVP or WTM fleet and ask on their comms if you don't belive this.
That poses a problem for all mmo. 24/7 "hardcore" multi-acc cashing etc etc players will always generate the most ingame currencies. What should be the recourse of the devs? Starving the game of worthwhile content/events? What if CCP nerfs incursions? Would it keep these people from overblown isk generation elsewhere? Personally, I dont want to see the game deprived of content, of features and ideas, because some folks are mmo overachievers. If things are that bad CCP should introduce a cap for incursions, sure. Perhaps a dev might want to acknowledge the topic to validate the concerns.
your not depriving the game of content though, nerfing the income does not deprive anyone of content only isk
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 17:10:15 -
[1427] - Quote
Have you considered that things are just the way CCP wants them to be? EvE propagates the survival of the fittest, the strong shall prosper. If you think about it this is exactly right up CCPs road. The incursion runners have the means, the organisation and the will to reap the rewards. They take actions. If you want your share, claim it. The game offers a nice reward for those willing to take it. People sitting on the sidelines to moan dont seem to concern the devs. At least I dont see CCP commenting on the situation. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2405
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 17:17:11 -
[1428] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Have you considered that things are just the way CCP wants them to be? EvE propagates the survival of the fittest, the strong shall prosper. If you think about it this is exactly right up CCPs road. The incursion runners have the means, the organisation and the will to reap the rewards. They take actions. If you want your share, claim it. The game offers a nice reward for those willing to take it. People sitting on the sidelines to moan dont seem to concern the devs. At least I dont see CCP commenting on the situation.
CCP barely comment on changes they announce themselves and you think they will comment on stuff brought up in threadnought like that? |
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
26
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 17:24:16 -
[1429] - Quote
Whats the half life of an average EvE player before turning into a bitter shell? |
Nick Bete
The Scope Gallente Federation
378
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 18:22:45 -
[1430] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Whats the half life of an average EvE player before turning into a bitter shell? I don't know but check the age of Jenn or any of those who consistently argue for nerfing high sec for your answer. |
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La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
451
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 19:05:08 -
[1431] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Daerrol wrote:Sansha Incursion are fine. If they pay so much ISK why aren't -you- running them? We are, that's the problem.
So ppl like you and Jenn aSide filled your pockets to the brim and want close the isk faucet for others? Very selfless of you. Maybe those isk faucets are the reason for the inflationary plex prices...
Woa maybe this is an undercover plex-price-whine-thread?
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2406
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 20:42:55 -
[1432] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:baltec1 wrote:Daerrol wrote:Sansha Incursion are fine. If they pay so much ISK why aren't -you- running them? We are, that's the problem. So ppl like you and Jenn aSide filled your pockets to the brim and want close the isk faucet for others? Very selfless of you. Maybe those isk faucets are the reason for the inflationary plex prices... Woa maybe this is an undercover plex-price-whine-thread?
THey are still filling their pocket and I would too if I didn't follow my personal "no alts" rule. It's easy, medium investement at most, low risk and better paying than pretty much anything but WH. Beside guys like me who don't want alts, there is only one other reason why people would not want to run that over anything else and it's being un-able to stand being in a fleet. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13021
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 20:58:57 -
[1433] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:baltec1 wrote:Daerrol wrote:Sansha Incursion are fine. If they pay so much ISK why aren't -you- running them? We are, that's the problem. So ppl like you and Jenn aSide filled your pockets to the brim and want close the isk faucet for others? Very selfless of you. Maybe those isk faucets are the reason for the inflationary plex prices... Woa maybe this is an undercover plex-price-whine-thread?
I run incursions because they exist and are not against the rules. Same with my FW alt.
While I think there are too many rewards in this game, the real issue isn't the economy. Its the backwards incentive situation. High Sec should not be enticing to someone who has access to null (or low or WH) space. High Sec shold only be enticing to people who live in high sec.
Because incursions are too good, you end up with people like me having the choice of "do null pve and make less, or risk a carrier to make the same" or "just log in high sec alt and make isk, or log in FW alt and make isk while maybe losing a SB per week".
Why you are so resistant to this truth remains amazing to me. I mean we've laid out the problem, and yet people like you remain in denial to the point of making posts like yours. I don't honestly get it.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15256
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 23:21:52 -
[1434] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:I don't honestly get it.
I do.
Carebears always project.
In this instance, they project their fundamental selfishness and dishonesty onto whomever they're arguing with. They have a selfish ulterior motive for wanting incursions to stay, so they assume you must have one if you want them gone.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Valacus
Streets of Fire
44
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 02:09:58 -
[1435] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I don't honestly get it.
I do. Carebears always project. In this instance, they project their fundamental selfishness and dishonesty onto whomever they're arguing with. They have a selfish ulterior motive for wanting incursions to stay, so they assume you must have one if you want them gone.
Hahaha, oh please. "Elite" PvPers are just as big of babies. "Waaaaaaaah! I can't force them into places where I can kill them easily!" The only one projecting here is you, because you're the one trying to force people to play or do what you want them to because you don't like what they do now. Well, it ain't up to you. Get used to it. |
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari End of Life
152
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 02:26:39 -
[1436] - Quote
Valacus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I don't honestly get it.
I do. Carebears always project. In this instance, they project their fundamental selfishness and dishonesty onto whomever they're arguing with. They have a selfish ulterior motive for wanting incursions to stay, so they assume you must have one if you want them gone. Hahaha, oh please. "Elite" PvPers are just as big of babies. "Waaaaaaaah! I can't force them into places where I can kill them easily!" The only one projecting here is you, because you're the one trying to force people to play or do what you want them to because you don't like what they do now. Well, it ain't up to you. Get used to it.
I don't think it's entirely about 'forcing them into places where I can kill them'. It's that for a lot of people who live in null, where logistics is a bit of a pain in the ass, and you are risking your assets a lot more whenever you're out it space, it feels wrong that not only is it less risk, but it also makes more isk to go to High Sec and run incursions.
I know this doesn't make sense to people who live in high sec. To them it just looks like nullbears hate high sec or something. But to nullbears the promise of null was that you need to put in effort to survive, but if you do there will be awesome rewards. Then we got out to null, found the rewards were ok, but that they were better back in high sec. So now a fairly significant number of nullbears make their isk in high sec running incursions and only really 'live' in null to go on fleets etc. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13022
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 02:54:30 -
[1437] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:
I don't think it's entirely about 'forcing them into places where I can kill them'. It's that for a lot of people who live in null, where logistics is a bit of a pain in the ass, and you are risking your assets a lot more whenever you're out it space, it feels wrong that not only is it less risk, but it also makes more isk to go to High Sec and run incursions.
I know this doesn't make sense to people who live in high sec. To them it just looks like nullbears hate high sec or something. But to nullbears the promise of null was that you need to put in effort to survive, but if you do there will be awesome rewards. Then we got out to null, found the rewards were ok, but that they were better back in high sec. So now a fairly significant number of nullbears make their isk in high sec running incursions and only really 'live' in null to go on fleets etc.
Perfectly well said. I'm serious, way better than I could have ever put it. I'm a PVE jock, if you don't come into my home constellation, you are probably really safe from me, unless you look like you belong to the Angel Cartel, then I'm going to Genocide you lol. That's when I laugh when I see the "you just want easy kills" meme. When people have to fall back on that kind of irrationality, it means that what's being said to them is penetrating, and it's painful lol. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
44
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 02:58:17 -
[1438] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:Valacus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I don't honestly get it.
I do. Carebears always project. In this instance, they project their fundamental selfishness and dishonesty onto whomever they're arguing with. They have a selfish ulterior motive for wanting incursions to stay, so they assume you must have one if you want them gone. Hahaha, oh please. "Elite" PvPers are just as big of babies. "Waaaaaaaah! I can't force them into places where I can kill them easily!" The only one projecting here is you, because you're the one trying to force people to play or do what you want them to because you don't like what they do now. Well, it ain't up to you. Get used to it. I don't think it's entirely about 'forcing them into places where I can kill them'. It's that for a lot of people who live in null, where logistics is a bit of a pain in the ass, and you are risking your assets a lot more whenever you're out it space, it feels wrong that not only is it less risk, but it also makes more isk to go to High Sec and run incursions. I know this doesn't make sense to people who live in high sec. To them it just looks like nullbears hate high sec or something. But to nullbears the promise of null was that you need to put in effort to survive, but if you do there will be awesome rewards. Then we got out to null, found the rewards were ok, but that they were better back in high sec. So now a fairly significant number of nullbears make their isk in high sec running incursions and only really 'live' in null to go on fleets etc.
That's because null is terribly designed. The reason people prefer making ISK in high sec vs. null is because null sucks. That's more effort and stress than is necessary to get the job done. That just means null needs a buff. Removing incursions will not make null more desirable. High sec people will just do something other than incursions in high sec. Null sec will still suck and people will still avoid it. You won't be solving any problems because you haven't identified the real issues. You're just raging at things you don't like because other people's lives aren't as hard as yours. Well, they shouldn't have to be. CCP's failure to make null desirable has no relation to people who make safe ISK in high sec. Why people always look to high sec whenever null is stagnant and lame beyond me. Most of us live in both high sec and nullsec anyways. |
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
32
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 03:16:41 -
[1439] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:La Rynx wrote:baltec1 wrote:Daerrol wrote:Sansha Incursion are fine. If they pay so much ISK why aren't -you- running them? We are, that's the problem. So ppl like you and Jenn aSide filled your pockets to the brim and want close the isk faucet for others? Very selfless of you. Maybe those isk faucets are the reason for the inflationary plex prices... Woa maybe this is an undercover plex-price-whine-thread? I run incursions because they exist and are not against the rules. Same with my FW alt. While I think there are too many rewards in this game, the real issue isn't the economy. Its the backwards incentive situation. High Sec should not be enticing to someone who has access to null (or low or WH) space. High Sec shold only be enticing to people who live in high sec. Because incursions are too good, you end up with people like me having the choice of "do null pve and make less, or risk a carrier to make the same" or "just log in high sec alt and make isk, or log in FW alt and make isk while maybe losing a SB per week". Why you are so resistant to this truth remains amazing to me. I mean we've laid out the problem, and yet people like you remain in denial to the point of making posts like yours. I don't honestly get it.
I see
So Jita... high sec... shouldn't be enticing to someone in nul-sec... if the real issue isn't the economy?
but the issue is the economy.. or none of this thread would be about payouts...
The problem is that nul-sec hasn't utilized it's capital advantage to create genuine markets for the goods that only it produces
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Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari End of Life
153
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 03:26:40 -
[1440] - Quote
Valacus wrote:Davis TetrisKing wrote:Valacus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I don't honestly get it.
I do. Carebears always project. In this instance, they project their fundamental selfishness and dishonesty onto whomever they're arguing with. They have a selfish ulterior motive for wanting incursions to stay, so they assume you must have one if you want them gone. Hahaha, oh please. "Elite" PvPers are just as big of babies. "Waaaaaaaah! I can't force them into places where I can kill them easily!" The only one projecting here is you, because you're the one trying to force people to play or do what you want them to because you don't like what they do now. Well, it ain't up to you. Get used to it. I don't think it's entirely about 'forcing them into places where I can kill them'. It's that for a lot of people who live in null, where logistics is a bit of a pain in the ass, and you are risking your assets a lot more whenever you're out it space, it feels wrong that not only is it less risk, but it also makes more isk to go to High Sec and run incursions. I know this doesn't make sense to people who live in high sec. To them it just looks like nullbears hate high sec or something. But to nullbears the promise of null was that you need to put in effort to survive, but if you do there will be awesome rewards. Then we got out to null, found the rewards were ok, but that they were better back in high sec. So now a fairly significant number of nullbears make their isk in high sec running incursions and only really 'live' in null to go on fleets etc. That's because null is terribly designed. The reason people prefer making ISK in high sec vs. null is because null sucks. That's more effort and stress than is necessary to get the job done. That just means null needs a buff. Removing incursions will not make null more desirable. High sec people will just do something other than incursions in high sec. Null sec will still suck and people will still avoid it. You won't be solving any problems because you haven't identified the real issues. You're just raging at things you don't like because other people's lives aren't as hard as yours. Well, they shouldn't have to be. CCP's failure to make null desirable has no relation to people who make safe ISK in high sec. Why people always look to high sec whenever null is stagnant and lame beyond me. Most of us live in both high sec and nullsec anyways.
Interesting way to look at it. What part of null do you think is terribly designed? Is it the bit that makes it unsafe? Logistically difficult? Choke points in and out? Local chat showing who's in system? Bubbles? Bombs? Cynos? To many people these are all quite interesting and what makes eve a very different game. If you could help identify what it is you don't like we could possibly look at making null better designed.
From my point of view there are very few games where people can actually run logistics as a gameplay style (I'm talking about hauling and stocking markets, not repairing people in combat). There are many people that like the idea of living in some kind of 'wild west' where they have to fight for and defend what they've laid claim to. Some people like being part of big groups who don't like outsiders, some fight to control areas and make the place open for anyone who doesn't have a bad history with them as an enemy (PFR). Null opens these options up in some pretty interesting ways. But when it comes down to it generally in a game it has to feel worth it. There has to be some satisfaction from putting in the hard yards and getting a 'just' reward.
The problem is that in eve rewards are all relative. Your isk/effort matters in comparison to other ways to get isk/effort. Incursions seem to have high isk and low effort, so relatively a lot of activities in null feel unrewarding because the effort is much higher and the isk isn't as good. Now obviously isk isn't the only reward. Empire building can be it's own reward. Satisfaction at achieving a goal can be a great reward. But for this topic I think we're mainly talking about isk (although I think incursions could do with something to make them feel more rewarding that isn't isk, like challenge).
So anyway, we could buff null isk. Really to do that we'd have to buff all activities in null, ratting, manufacturing, maybe PI and moon goo, just generally stuff to 'fix' null. Then we might need to go buff LS to keep it somewhere in the middle. And maybe WHs.
Look at the end of the day I don't want to remove incursions. I think they have a place. I just don't think they should eclipse so many other forms of making isk as much as they currently do. |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13022
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 03:53:13 -
[1441] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:
So anyway, we could buff null isk. Really to do that we'd have to buff all activities in null, ratting, manufacturing, maybe PI and moon goo, just generally stuff to 'fix' null. Then we might need to go buff LS to keep it somewhere in the middle. And maybe WHs.
The reason some of us reject the idea of 'just buff null' is because we don't want tings to get worse. In some cases there are just too many rewards in the game to begin with, and making yet more is a bad idea in general.
Years ago it was possible to take a Titan and pair it with a Tracking Link Scimitar and Do Forsaken Hubs with it (back then Forsaken hubs had no frigate sized ships, so they are perfect for this kind of super-blapping). It was 400 mil or more per hour doing that.
It was wrong as hell, even when you consider the amount of investment in skills and buying the hull+fit you needed. CCP nerfed it and you didn't see anyone in null complaining, because every single ratter knew it was OP bullshit.
That Valcus guy says null sucks. It doesn't. It's isk to risk ratio is imo damn near perfect, and it's fine that people can disrupt your PVE, it's null sec. The "Buff null" crowd says this as a dodge, a kind of "leave my stuff alone" cry disguised as discussion. But simply put buffing null would be irresponsible, it would hurt the game, in some ways SOV null is over-rewarded (moon-goo), if anything it could probably use a nerf (ie anoms should not be afk-able, moon goo should have to be mined by ships like asteroids are, etc etc etc).
But high sec incursions (and some forms of mission blitzing) need an even stronger nerf than aspects of null do.
What I jsut said above about the space I live in (null sec) possibly needing a nerf is something the high sec/incursion defending crowd can't grasp btw. They would never be able to say that.
Quote: Look at the end of the day I don't want to remove incursions. I think they have a place. I just don't think they should eclipse so many other forms of making isk as much as they currently do.
I agree. Despite what the OP named this thread, i don't support incursions being removed from high sec either. I'm hoping liek all get out that Drifer Incursions replace the awfully farmable sansha ones though. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13025
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 03:59:46 -
[1442] - Quote
Paul Pohl wrote:
I see
So Jita... high sec... shouldn't be enticing to someone in nul-sec... if the real issue isn't the economy?
but the issue is the economy.. or none of this thread would be about payouts...
No you do not see. You are confusing "the economy" with "personal economic incentives". The economy is mostly fine even with so few people generating 8 tril isk per month from incursions. The real problem is that the existence of high sec incursions and a couple of other things reduce incentives of people who live outside of high sec to do things in their own space. Many of those running high sec incursions are actually alts of null and low sec players.
High Sec shouldn't be so attractive that people like me plant permanent alts there for the purpose of making more isk than we could in space we fight for and upgrade.
This leads to people who are trying to maintain their unbalanced high sec isk fountain to then say" well, just buff null", but buffing null would hurt the game and just funnel isk into the hands of a few null sec overlords ( ironically recreating the problem high sec incursions already produce, and that people like me are calling for to end). |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
257
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 04:13:32 -
[1443] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:baltec1 wrote:Daerrol wrote:Sansha Incursion are fine. If they pay so much ISK why aren't -you- running them? We are, that's the problem. So ppl like you and Jenn aSide filled your pockets to the brim and want close the isk faucet for others? Very selfless of you. Maybe those isk faucets are the reason for the inflationary plex prices... Woa maybe this is an undercover plex-price-whine-thread?
Exactly, they've already had their fill and don't want anyone else to get fed.
They're both stubborn, selfish and conceited bittervets who ideas would ruin Eve if they had their way. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13026
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 04:46:00 -
[1444] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:La Rynx wrote:baltec1 wrote:Daerrol wrote:Sansha Incursion are fine. If they pay so much ISK why aren't -you- running them? We are, that's the problem. So ppl like you and Jenn aSide filled your pockets to the brim and want close the isk faucet for others? Very selfless of you. Maybe those isk faucets are the reason for the inflationary plex prices... Woa maybe this is an undercover plex-price-whine-thread? Exactly, they've already had their fill and don't want anyone else to get fed. They're both stubborn, selfish and conceited bittervets who ideas would ruin Eve if they had their way.
While this kind of non-thinking BS doesn't deserve a response, I will point out that this is what you commonly get form any kind of discussion that people think will result in them losing something. It's sad to observe, because you see their fear overcome their reason.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
259
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 07:45:06 -
[1445] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:La Rynx wrote:baltec1 wrote:Daerrol wrote:Sansha Incursion are fine. If they pay so much ISK why aren't -you- running them? We are, that's the problem. So ppl like you and Jenn aSide filled your pockets to the brim and want close the isk faucet for others? Very selfless of you. Maybe those isk faucets are the reason for the inflationary plex prices... Woa maybe this is an undercover plex-price-whine-thread? Exactly, they've already had their fill and don't want anyone else to get fed. They're both stubborn, selfish and conceited bittervets who ideas would ruin Eve if they had their way. While this kind of non-thinking BS doesn't deserve a response, I will point out that this is what you commonly get form any kind of discussion that people think will result in them losing something. It's sad to observe, because you see their fear overcome their reason.
Non- Thinking? What's there to think about?
I've read all your post Jenn in this thread (well most before falling asleep) and it pretty much boils down to you're being jealous of Hi-sec income potential and wanting them (mostly incursions) nerfed down so you can resist the urge to come back to hi-sec. You pride yourself on being a nullbear able to defend your own territories, but ohhh nooo those incursion runners are making much more than I make without risking anything. So you cry, "IT'S NOT FAAAIIIIIRRR" Waaaaaaah!!
I had some respect for you because I thought you were one of those elite caliber players, but unfortunately you're just another bittervet stuck in your own little Eve world and completely oblivious to understanding multiple opinions other than your own (because you think no other opinion matters since they are wrong and I'm always right)....... Pleeeease, you really should give it a rest!
Your precious carriers are gonna get nerf anyways so you might as well dock em up, give in to the temptation and return to Hi-Sec. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13027
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 07:54:20 -
[1446] - Quote
Non- Thinking? What's there to think about?[/quote]
The issue being discussed, which is going over your head , causing your anger.
Quote: I've read all your post Jenn in this thread (well most before falling asleep) and it pretty much boils down to you're being jealous of Hi-sec income potential and wanting them (mostly incursions) nerfed down so you can resist the urge to come back to hi-sec. You pride yourself on being a nullbear able to defend your own territories, but ohhh nooo those incursion runners are making much more than I make without risking anything....IT'S NOT FAAAIIIIIRRR!! Waaaaaaah!
I had some respect for you because I thought you were one of those elite caliber players, but unfortunately you're just another bittervet stuck in your own little Eve world and completely oblivious to understanding multiple opinions other than your own.
Your precious carriers are gonna get nerf anyways so you might as well dock em up, give in to the temptation and return to Hi-Sec.
What carriers? I use a Machariel. But I don't know what you mean about resist the urge to come back to high sec. I NEVER LEFT lol, it's called an alt. I log it on whenever I need isk faster than my deadspace null mach can make. And every time, it strikes me as wrong that that's an option. The feeling intensifies while on TVP or WTM comms talking to people who willingly tell you their mains ar ein PL, NC., TEST, Goons etc etc. So I'm not the only one from null drawn to the damn things.
Go ahead, lie to yourself if it makes you feel better. Pretend that the entire reason I'm posting is that I care about the imaginary money finding it's way into the imaginary wallet of some dude sitting at a computer, probably naked and covered in cheeto dust. If denying the issue helps you, more power to you.
As for other people's opinions, I respect other people's opinions, when they are right and backed up by evidence. When they are a bunch of nonsense and self serving untruths, I also give them the respect they deserve.
None.
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
616
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 08:06:07 -
[1447] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:As for other people's opinions, I respect other people's opinions, when they are right and backed up by evidence. When they are a bunch of nonsense and self serving untruths, I also give them the respect they deserve.
None. I can confirm that both of these assertions are a lie. Providing evidence gets ignored or you get bombarded with personal insults, even when proven to be right. It's counter productive to coming to a solution.
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.03
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
113
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 08:39:54 -
[1448] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:As for other people's opinions, I respect other people's opinions, when they are right and backed up by evidence. When they are a bunch of nonsense and self serving untruths, I also give them the respect they deserve.
None. I can confirm that both of these assertions are a lie. Providing evidence gets ignored or you get bombarded with personal insults, even when proven to be right. It's counter productive to coming to a solution.
Can we get the discussion back on track, stop the mud flinging, and get into this evidence and counter arguments that the "keep things as they are" crowd keep saying they've posted? I'd be interested to see the argument for why incursions are fine as they are preferably from someone who has experience both in incursions and in other areas of space. I have used examples from my own experience showing how incursions remove content but have not seen arguments against that.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13027
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 09:28:23 -
[1449] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:As for other people's opinions, I respect other people's opinions, when they are right and backed up by evidence. When they are a bunch of nonsense and self serving untruths, I also give them the respect they deserve.
None. I can confirm that both of these assertions are a lie. Providing evidence gets ignored or you get bombarded with personal insults, even when proven to be right. It's counter productive to coming to a solution.
The only evidence you have yet provided is in your sig, with is exhibit number one of the kinds of non-incursion imbalances that exist.
So what 'evidence' are you talking about. Post it now.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
402
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 09:50:52 -
[1450] - Quote
Could you guys please stop for a moment and state, how much ISK/h/Character can be made with certain activities?
From my experience, Nullsec Anomalies cap out somewhere around 120M or so, but I may be doing it wrong. How much is it for 0.0 DED Sites, Incursions? W-Space? FW? Lv 4 Missions? |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13029
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 09:57:51 -
[1451] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Could you guys please stop for a moment and state, how much ISK/h/Character can be made with certain activities?
From my experience, Nullsec Anomalies cap out somewhere around 120M or so, but I may be doing it wrong. How much is it for 0.0 DED Sites, Incursions? W-Space? FW? Lv 4 Missions?
120 is about right for a single character using a Carrier. Who knows how "high angle guns" will affect this.
My Machariel does 28 to 34 mil ticks, so 84 to 102 mil (not counting occasional faction spawns)
This is a good post with accurate information..
And this post is stickied in the Wormhole section. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
259
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 10:49:17 -
[1452] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Go ahead, lie to yourself if it makes you feel better. Pretend that the entire reason I'm posting is that I care about the imaginary money finding it's way into the imaginary wallet of some dude sitting at a computer, probably naked and covered in cheeto dust. If denying the issue helps you, more power to you.
Your trolling is soo weird, but at least it's original. |
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
402
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 11:18:53 -
[1453] - Quote
Cool, thank you!
Assuming the info is correct, it seems then, that HS Incursions, HS Lv.4 Mission Blitzing, NS Carrier Anomaly Ratting and NS DED Exploration are pretty much on par, payout wise.
I do think this is still a bit odd, considering that - boredom aside - in HS you can run missions/incursions 16 hours a day, non stop with minimal risk, whereas in Nullsec, interruptions are bound to happen. Stupidity aside, you will not lose the Carrier*, but you will at some point have to dock, and potentially reship and fight, and while doing that, not make any money. Let's be realistic, folks - risk in Nullsec is not that high. Correct me if I am wrong due to living in a fortress.
So far, I'd say balance is only slightly off. Not as bad, however, as one could assume it is when reading this thread. (again: assuming the info is correct)
Next are W-Space sites. Pretty much the same as for nullsec applies for W-Space as well - some dude logs in in your hole or strolls into it, and you may have to postpone the jewing for a while. At a first glance, those numbers look ridiculous. 200-400M/h? But I wonder - how realistic is the notion of running C5 Sites for hours on end, as can be done with incursions, missions and NS anomalies. Would be nice if a Hole-Dweller (or are they called "Worms"?) could shed some light on this. My endeavours to W-Space have been rather short, and never took me anywhere beyond Class 4.
What really strikes me as not very accurate and potentially out of balance is "Faction Warfare: 50-200 mil per hour. Varies wildly with faction levels, luck, etc. Consider hostiles as well." for Low Sec. Any insight on how that goes? Average would be 125M, which would still be on par with about everything else. How realistic is it to reap in 200M/h 16 hours a day?
In my opinion, Trading, Mercenary work and other things where goods and money come from other players do not count. If people are willing to give you a trillion ISK for whatever you do - all the power to you! This discussion should only focus on activities aiming at "generating" goods and ISK from thin air.
So far, I do not see a reason to "End HS Incursions" or even hit them with the Nerf-Club too hard. A slight reduction in HS income in general does sound reasonable, though.
*) I have yet to lose a Ratting Carrier, or even just an AFKtar after almost 3 years of anomaly running. It will happen eventually, but if it does, it will be because I have fallen asleep in Space. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40971
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 11:40:05 -
[1454] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote: Let's be realistic, folks - risk in Nullsec is not that high. Correct me if I am wrong due to living in a fortress. Risk in null can be very low. In some cases, lower than some systems and activities in highsec.
However, the difference between risk in null and risk in high (just to compare two extremes) is that low risk in null is bought about by players actively managing the risk. Low risk in highsec is inherent to the mechanics of the game.
That's where a lot of the argument comes from in this thread.
That for the equal reward, there is a large difference in the hazards that need to be managed.
So through the thread, there has been an argument to either nerf the income from incursions in highsec, or keep the income the same but increase the hazards associated with running incursions, with the most common suggestion being to remove or delay CONCORD in affected systems.
A lot of it is based around the view that a lot of highsec incursion runners and alts of nullsec players and that if the rewards in HS are reduced, or risks to manage increased, then these players will play more on their nullsec characters.
If that happens, then incursion fleet places will open up for pure HS players and nullsec will have an increase in activity. Win-win for everyone in a Utopia.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
234
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 12:03:25 -
[1455] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Neuntausend wrote: Let's be realistic, folks - risk in Nullsec is not that high. Correct me if I am wrong due to living in a fortress. Risk in null can be very low. In some cases, lower than some systems and activities in highsec. However, the difference between risk in null and risk in high (just to compare two extremes) is that low risk in null is bought about by players actively managing the risk. Low risk in highsec is inherent to the mechanics of the game. Low population in null also contributes to low risk, although in many cases players need to manage hazards as though they exist because of roaming gangs, etc. even in systems with low activity. That's where a lot of the argument comes from in this thread. That for the equal reward, there is a large difference in the hazards that need to be managed. So through the thread, there has been an argument to either nerf the income from incursions in highsec, or keep the income the same but increase the hazards associated with running incursions, with the most common suggestion being to remove or delay CONCORD in affected systems. A lot of it is based around the view that a lot of highsec incursion runners are alts of nullsec players and that if the rewards in HS are reduced, or risks to manage increased, then these players will play more on their nullsec characters. If that happens, then incursion fleet places will open up for pure HS players and nullsec will have an increase in activity. Win-win for everyone in a Utopia.
Risk in null can be low, the few weeks I spent there. The only thing that was a potential threat was the odd red scout checking out the system, so all we had to do was fly to a POS, report it and wait a few minutes until they left again. Which probably ties in with what was being said as the systems were very low population ones. So keeping an eye on local chat was all you really had to do.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40971
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 12:09:17 -
[1456] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Risk in null can be very low. In some cases, lower than some systems and activities in highsec. Risk in null can be low, the few weeks I spent there. Yep.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
259
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 12:09:36 -
[1457] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Cool, thank you!
Assuming the info is correct, it seems then, that HS Incursions, HS Lv.4 Mission Blitzing, NS Carrier Anomaly Ratting and NS DED Exploration are pretty much on par, payout wise.
I do think this is still a bit odd, considering that - boredom aside - in HS you can run missions/incursions 16 hours a day, non stop with minimal risk, whereas in Nullsec, interruptions are bound to happen. Stupidity aside, you will not lose the Carrier*, but you will at some point have to dock, and potentially reship and fight, and while doing that, not make any money. Let's be realistic, folks - risk in Nullsec is not that high. Correct me if I am wrong due to living in a fortress.
So far, I'd say balance is only slightly off. Not as bad, however, as one could assume it is when reading this thread. (again: assuming the info is correct)
Next are W-Space sites. Pretty much the same as for nullsec applies for W-Space as well - some dude logs in in your hole or strolls into it, and you may have to postpone the jewing for a while. At a first glance, those numbers look ridiculous. 200-400M/h? But I wonder - how realistic is the notion of running C5 Sites for hours on end, as can be done with incursions, missions and NS anomalies. Would be nice if a Hole-Dweller (or are they called "Worms"?) could shed some light on this. My endeavours to W-Space have been rather short, and never took me anywhere beyond Class 4.
What really strikes me as not very accurate and potentially out of balance is "Faction Warfare: 50-200 mil per hour. Varies wildly with faction levels, luck, etc. Consider hostiles as well." for Low Sec. Any insight on how that goes? Average would be 125M, which would still be on par with about everything else. How realistic is it to reap in 200M/h 16 hours a day?
In my opinion, Trading, Mercenary work and other things where goods and money come from other players do not count. If people are willing to give you a trillion ISK for whatever you do - all the power to you! This discussion should only focus on activities aiming at "generating" goods and ISK from thin air.
So far, I do not see a reason to "End HS Incursions" or even hit them with the Nerf-Club too hard. A slight reduction in HS income in general does sound reasonable, though.
*) I have yet to lose a Ratting Carrier, or even just an AFKtar after almost 3 years of anomaly running. It will happen eventually, but if it does, it will be because I have fallen asleep in Space.
Players organize fleets and do incursions because of the high payout, if this activity is nerf then players would stop doing them.
As for hi-sec missions, the only faction you can run for that pays well are SOE and Thurker Tribes. The other empire faction isk/LP conversion rates are pathetic in comparison and are pretty much ignored. The only corrections I see to be made their is the revamping of the LP stores (like removing or lowering tag requirements for certain items) and making missions unblitzable.
That and I wouldn't be against CCP making a grandeur version of incursions exclusively for null space that spawns at least 2 mega incursions in each region per day. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1939
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 12:16:38 -
[1458] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Neuntausend wrote:Cool, thank you!
Assuming the info is correct, it seems then, that HS Incursions, HS Lv.4 Mission Blitzing, NS Carrier Anomaly Ratting and NS DED Exploration are pretty much on par, payout wise.
I do think this is still a bit odd, considering that - boredom aside - in HS you can run missions/incursions 16 hours a day, non stop with minimal risk, whereas in Nullsec, interruptions are bound to happen. Stupidity aside, you will not lose the Carrier*, but you will at some point have to dock, and potentially reship and fight, and while doing that, not make any money. Let's be realistic, folks - risk in Nullsec is not that high. Correct me if I am wrong due to living in a fortress.
So far, I'd say balance is only slightly off. Not as bad, however, as one could assume it is when reading this thread. (again: assuming the info is correct)
Next are W-Space sites. Pretty much the same as for nullsec applies for W-Space as well - some dude logs in in your hole or strolls into it, and you may have to postpone the jewing for a while. At a first glance, those numbers look ridiculous. 200-400M/h? But I wonder - how realistic is the notion of running C5 Sites for hours on end, as can be done with incursions, missions and NS anomalies. Would be nice if a Hole-Dweller (or are they called "Worms"?) could shed some light on this. My endeavours to W-Space have been rather short, and never took me anywhere beyond Class 4.
What really strikes me as not very accurate and potentially out of balance is "Faction Warfare: 50-200 mil per hour. Varies wildly with faction levels, luck, etc. Consider hostiles as well." for Low Sec. Any insight on how that goes? Average would be 125M, which would still be on par with about everything else. How realistic is it to reap in 200M/h 16 hours a day?
In my opinion, Trading, Mercenary work and other things where goods and money come from other players do not count. If people are willing to give you a trillion ISK for whatever you do - all the power to you! This discussion should only focus on activities aiming at "generating" goods and ISK from thin air.
So far, I do not see a reason to "End HS Incursions" or even hit them with the Nerf-Club too hard. A slight reduction in HS income in general does sound reasonable, though.
*) I have yet to lose a Ratting Carrier, or even just an AFKtar after almost 3 years of anomaly running. It will happen eventually, but if it does, it will be because I have fallen asleep in Space. Players organize fleets and do incursions because of the high payout, if this activity is nerf then players would stop doing them. As for hi-sec missions, the only faction you can run for that pays well are SOE and Thurker Tribes. The other empire faction isk/LP conversion rates are pathetic in comparison and are pretty much ignored. The only corrections I see to be made their is the revamping of the LP stores (like removing or lowering tag requirements for certain items) and making missions unblitzable. That and I wouldn't be against CCP making a grandeur version of incursions exclusively for null space that spawns at least 2 mega incursions in each region per day.
Is there really a downside that some people will stop doing incursions if payouts lowered? probably only the vets who have ample amounts of isk will quit, new players will probably find something else to do.
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15257
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 12:23:02 -
[1459] - Quote
Valacus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I don't honestly get it.
I do. Carebears always project. In this instance, they project their fundamental selfishness and dishonesty onto whomever they're arguing with. They have a selfish ulterior motive for wanting incursions to stay, so they assume you must have one if you want them gone. Hahaha, oh please. "Elite" PvPers are just as big of babies. "Waaaaaaaah! I can't force them into places where I can kill them easily!" The only one projecting here is you, because you're the one trying to force people to play or do what you want them to because you don't like what they do now. Well, it ain't up to you. Get used to it.
I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything.
I just think risk should equate to reward.
You clearly think you are entitled to all the reward and zero risk. You're wrong.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1939
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 12:27:04 -
[1460] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Neuntausend wrote: Let's be realistic, folks - risk in Nullsec is not that high. Correct me if I am wrong due to living in a fortress. Risk in null can be very low. In some cases, lower than some systems and activities in highsec. However, the difference between risk in null and risk in high (just to compare two extremes) is that low risk in null is bought about by players actively managing the risk. Low risk in highsec is inherent to the mechanics of the game. Low population in null also contributes to low risk, although in many cases players need to manage hazards as though they exist because of roaming gangs, etc. even in systems with low activity. That's where a lot of the argument comes from in this thread. That for the equal reward, there is a large difference in the hazards that need to be managed. So through the thread, there has been an argument to either nerf the income from incursions in highsec, or keep the income the same but increase the hazards associated with running incursions, with the most common suggestion being to remove or delay CONCORD in affected systems. A lot of it is based around the view that a lot of highsec incursion runners are alts of nullsec players and that if the rewards in HS are reduced, or risks to manage increased, then these players will play more on their nullsec characters. If that happens, then incursion fleet places will open up for pure HS players and nullsec will have an increase in activity. Win-win for everyone in a Utopia. Risk in null can be low, the few weeks I spent there. The only thing that was a potential threat was the odd red scout checking out the system, so all we had to do was fly to a POS, report it and wait a few minutes until they left again. Which probably ties in with what was being said as the systems were very low population ones. So keeping an eye on local chat was all you really had to do.
yeah if you stay in the same system then risk is low sometimes, till you meet the npc null people like pizza who will place a covert cyno alt in every system you rat in and kill capitals and ratting ships daily, its not very safe if you have to take a 2bil isk marauder or carrier 6 jumps through hostile space to finish an escalation, bubbles, blops roaming fleets etc etc.
Its also not safe to do incursions in null/low because they move around so they are pretty much unfarmable like they in highsec, not to mention the gate rats will tear anything you fly apart if you jump into an incursion.
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
234
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 12:30:57 -
[1461] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote: Is there really a downside that some people will stop doing incursions if payouts lowered? probably only the vets who have ample amounts of isk will quit, new players will probably find something else to do.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but incursions are done by just random people working together.
Why would you want to stop something that brings players together?
Some of the best fun I've had in MMO's (due to the mechanics) was in Warhammer Online with their RvR (realm v's realm) when the sides were fairly equal (unfortunately not that often). |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15257
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 12:38:06 -
[1462] - Quote
Avvy wrote: Why would you want to stop something that brings players together?
Why not? CCP has done much the same thing to salvaging, what once used to need two characters(which was a great way to introduce newbies to the game by having them salvage for you) is now completely replaced by the MTU.
They've set a precedent of doing that before, and for far less reason than they have to deal with incursions, which break the game on a number of levels.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
716
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 13:20:00 -
[1463] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Avvy wrote: Why would you want to stop something that brings players together?
Why not? CCP has done much the same thing to salvaging, what once used to need two characters(which was a great way to introduce newbies to the game by having them salvage for you) is now completely replaced by the MTU. They've set a precedent of doing that before, and for far less reason than they have to deal with incursions, which break the game on a number of levels.
You comparing the act of salvaging to the act of forming 40 man pickup fleets for the purpose of completing challenging tasks... well that just about says how shallow your argument is doesn't it?
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13037
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 13:20:15 -
[1464] - Quote
Avvy wrote: Risk in null can be low, the few weeks I spent there. The only thing that was a potential threat was the odd red scout checking out the system, so all we had to do was fly to a POS, report it and wait a few minutes until they left again. Which probably ties in with what was being said as the systems were very low population ones. So keeping an eye on local chat was all you really had to do.
Which is way more effort than one has to do in high sec. That's the point.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13037
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 13:21:33 -
[1465] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Avvy wrote: Why would you want to stop something that brings players together?
Why not? CCP has done much the same thing to salvaging, what once used to need two characters(which was a great way to introduce newbies to the game by having them salvage for you) is now completely replaced by the MTU. They've set a precedent of doing that before, and for far less reason than they have to deal with incursions, which break the game on a number of levels. You comparing the act of salvaging to the act of forming 40 man pickup fleets for the purpose of completing challenging tasks... well that just about says how shallow your argument is doesn't it?
About as shallow as comparing a 40 man fleet to the 4000 man alliance that had to take the pay to upgrade space for people to rat in. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
716
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 13:23:18 -
[1466] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Avvy wrote: Risk in null can be low, the few weeks I spent there. The only thing that was a potential threat was the odd red scout checking out the system, so all we had to do was fly to a POS, report it and wait a few minutes until they left again. Which probably ties in with what was being said as the systems were very low population ones. So keeping an eye on local chat was all you really had to do.
Which is way more effort than one has to do in high sec. That's the point.
Except for most of the time you can't use Local Chat as an intel tool against threats in High-Sec. You don't know how many of the 100 in local are Talos gank alts... in Null, your threat levels are given to you by default of what corp/alliance you are in.
Try harder.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1940
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 13:26:21 -
[1467] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Avvy wrote: Risk in null can be low, the few weeks I spent there. The only thing that was a potential threat was the odd red scout checking out the system, so all we had to do was fly to a POS, report it and wait a few minutes until they left again. Which probably ties in with what was being said as the systems were very low population ones. So keeping an eye on local chat was all you really had to do.
Which is way more effort than one has to do in high sec. That's the point. Except for most of the time you can't use Local Chat as an intel tool against threats in High-Sec. You don't know how many of the 100 in local are Talos gank alts... in Null, your threat levels are given to you by default of what corp/alliance you are in. Try harder.
are you really trying to say highsec incursions pose more risk than nullsec?
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13038
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 13:36:09 -
[1468] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Avvy wrote: Risk in null can be low, the few weeks I spent there. The only thing that was a potential threat was the odd red scout checking out the system, so all we had to do was fly to a POS, report it and wait a few minutes until they left again. Which probably ties in with what was being said as the systems were very low population ones. So keeping an eye on local chat was all you really had to do.
Which is way more effort than one has to do in high sec. That's the point. Except for most of the time you can't use Local Chat as an intel tool against threats in High-Sec. You don't know how many of the 100 in local are Talos gank alts... in Null, your threat levels are given to you by default of what corp/alliance you are in. Try harder. are you really trying to say highsec incursions pose more risk than nullsec?
Yea, he is, despite the fact that he linked a chart in another thread showing that more stuff gets blown up in null sec than in high sec (while nulls has the much smaller population to boot).
The 'high sec is more dangerous than null' lie is the self serving thing high seccers tell themselves to make their opinions be internally consistant (ie it's ok that things are unbalanced because high is more dangerous). It being mathematically untrue is no deterrent.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1943
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 13:40:14 -
[1469] - Quote
Stick to market selling mcalt
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13038
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 13:45:37 -
[1470] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Lan Wang wrote: Is there really a downside that some people will stop doing incursions if payouts lowered? probably only the vets who have ample amounts of isk will quit, new players will probably find something else to do.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but incursions are done by just random people working together. Why would you want to stop something that brings players together? Some of the best fun I've had in MMO's (due to the mechanics) was in Warhammer Online with their RvR (realm v's realm) when the sides were fairly equal (unfortunately not that often).
Lots of the "people being brought together" are folks like me.
this post on the previous page explains it way better than i can:
Davis TetrisKing wrote: I don't think it's entirely about 'forcing them into places where I can kill them'. It's that for a lot of people who live in null, where logistics is a bit of a pain in the ass, and you are risking your assets a lot more whenever you're out it space, it feels wrong that not only is it less risk, but it also makes more isk to go to High Sec and run incursions.
I know this doesn't make sense to people who live in high sec. To them it just looks like nullbears hate high sec or something. But to nullbears the promise of null was that you need to put in effort to survive, but if you do there will be awesome rewards. Then we got out to null, found the rewards were ok, but that they were better back in high sec. So now a fairly significant number of nullbears make their isk in high sec running incursions and only really 'live' in null to go on fleets etc.
The above describes the upside down incentives of PVE in EVE Online today. It used to not be like that. When i started you could make a solid 30-40 mil an hour running missions in high sec, and you could live off it and explore the game with that. But if you wanted to get rich doing something other than station trading, off you went into the wild (low/null).
So we went. The CCP started adding new (jesus) features with poorly thought out and unbalanced rewards. All of a sudden, those of us who moved were like "wtf"? CCP even nerfed DED plexes in null then they made this change which was the last nail in the coffin. To high sec with alts a lot of us went, and there we mostly stay today.
Balancing how pve rewards work isn't about punishing high sec for choosing high sec (look at the numbers, most of high sec doesn't even incursion lol). it;s about freeing those of us who had put high sec behind us back into the places we should be playing. Null is fine if you get rid of a few imbalances in other parts of the game.
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Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
32
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Posted - 2015.11.27 14:06:51 -
[1471] - Quote
Solution seems simple. Dont bring down higsec, instead raise nullsec?
Yet people crying about highsec shows what this trollfest is about. |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
114
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:10:41 -
[1472] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Solution seems simple. Dont bring down higsec, instead raise nullsec?
Yet people crying about highsec shows what this trollfest is about.
Empty posts like yours are the troll posts. You are purposely burying quality posts with drivel to hide facts that you don't want to see. Please, if you have nothing to add then stop posting.
Edit: it has been explained many times why buffing nullsec is not a solution
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1944
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:15:21 -
[1473] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Solution seems simple. Dont bring down higsec, instead raise nullsec?
Yet people crying about highsec shows what this trollfest is about.
Doesnt really seem logical to change everything around an issue when you can just change the issue itself, id love for you work for me seems like you would do more work than required.
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Valacus
Streets of Fire
51
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:15:40 -
[1474] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Valacus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I don't honestly get it.
I do. Carebears always project. In this instance, they project their fundamental selfishness and dishonesty onto whomever they're arguing with. They have a selfish ulterior motive for wanting incursions to stay, so they assume you must have one if you want them gone. Hahaha, oh please. "Elite" PvPers are just as big of babies. "Waaaaaaaah! I can't force them into places where I can kill them easily!" The only one projecting here is you, because you're the one trying to force people to play or do what you want them to because you don't like what they do now. Well, it ain't up to you. Get used to it. I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything. I just think risk should equate to reward. You clearly think you are entitled to all the reward and zero risk. You're wrong.
And you clearly think you're entitled to all the reward with your comparable risk, as it has been discussed to length that ratting in nullsec ain't all that scary. |
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
32
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:18:14 -
[1475] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Solution seems simple. Dont bring down higsec, instead raise nullsec?
Yet people crying about highsec shows what this trollfest is about. Doesnt really seem logical to change everything around an issue when you can just change the issue itself, id love for you work for me seems like you would do more work than required. Well, I wouldnt hire you for sure. You are not keen on getting the true task done. Which, in this case, is a boost for null. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
51
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:19:39 -
[1476] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Solution seems simple. Dont bring down higsec, instead raise nullsec?
Yet people crying about highsec shows what this trollfest is about. Doesnt really seem logical to change everything around an issue when you can just change the issue itself, id love for you work for me seems like you would do more work than required.
Because you have the issue wrong. The issue is nullsec is lame. Removing a few things in high sec does not make null sec suddenly cool. It does not make people want to live in nullsec more. It just makes them change from one high sec activity to another. CCP has repeatedly refused to change nullsec for the better, so players have repeatedly chosen to avoid it. People are under this asinine assumption that if you just remove all the good activities in high sec, null sec will suddenly be a happening place. I'd wager many people would just quit then, as opposed to being forced into a region they don't wanna be in because no one is interested in fixing it. Right now, the only thing I enjoy about null is the fights, and even those can be really, really lame as everyone just blobs and drops capitals on you. I prefer living in low sec, where smaller fights are much more common, way more than I like living in null sec, where it's run at least 40 deep with 10 logi and links or bust. |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1944
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:21:34 -
[1477] - Quote
not just talking about nullsec here we are talking about null and low and the risks compared to just doing it in highsec
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15258
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:25:10 -
[1478] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Avvy wrote: Why would you want to stop something that brings players together?
Why not? CCP has done much the same thing to salvaging, what once used to need two characters(which was a great way to introduce newbies to the game by having them salvage for you) is now completely replaced by the MTU. They've set a precedent of doing that before, and for far less reason than they have to deal with incursions, which break the game on a number of levels. You comparing the act of salvaging to the act of forming 40 man pickup fleets for the purpose of completing challenging tasks... well that just about says how shallow your argument is doesn't it?
My argument begins and ends with incursions breaking risk vs reward, and thereby income across the game. I'm merely saying that the claim that it should somehow be immune to risk vs reward merely because it's a group activity is entirely foolish, which it is.
Go bite someone else's ankle.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15259
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:26:17 -
[1479] - Quote
Valacus wrote: And you clearly think you're entitled to all the reward with your comparable risk, as it has been discussed to length that ratting in nullsec ain't all that scary.
So what? No matter how safe you wish to dishonestly claim that null is, the fact of the matter is that highsec is far, far safer.
And the safety inherent in highsec should always result in second rate income. Otherwise, one of the basic premises of the game is broken.
Valacus wrote: Because you have the issue wrong. The issue is nullsec is lame. Removing a few things in high sec does not make null sec suddenly cool.
Wrong.
Income (and earning power) is relative, always.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
32
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:27:54 -
[1480] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:not just talking about nullsec here we are talking about null and low and the risks compared to just doing it in highsec Yes, but why did they put a high profit gig like incursions under the protection of Concord? Wouldnt you think there is a purpose to that decision? |
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13042
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:30:19 -
[1481] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Lan Wang wrote:not just talking about nullsec here we are talking about null and low and the risks compared to just doing it in highsec Yes, but why did they put a high profit gig like incursions under the protection of Concord? Wouldnt you think there is a purpose to that decision?
so a decision can't be wrong? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15259
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:30:50 -
[1482] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Lan Wang wrote:not just talking about nullsec here we are talking about null and low and the risks compared to just doing it in highsec Yes, but why did they put a high profit gig like incursions under the protection of Concord? Wouldnt you think there is a purpose to that decision?
They've said as much in the past, there was none. People were intended to defeat the Sansha in order to get rid of the NPCs who might attack them, their being farmed is wholly unintentional.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40983
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:41:19 -
[1483] - Quote
Valacus wrote:The issue is nullsec is lame. Removing a few things in high sec does not make null sec suddenly cool. In what way is nullsec lame and if you were to fix it, what would you do to make it not lame?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2407
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 14:42:09 -
[1484] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Lan Wang wrote:not just talking about nullsec here we are talking about null and low and the risks compared to just doing it in highsec Yes, but why did they put a high profit gig like incursions under the protection of Concord? Wouldnt you think there is a purpose to that decision? They've said as much in the past, there was none. People were intended to defeat the Sansha in order to get rid of the NPCs who might attack them, their being farmed is wholly unintentional.
They could probably start by just "fixing" this by making the incursion close after 2 hours of full blue bar. It still leaves time to form up the bigger fleet to complete it but no more 3 days of farming. From there, who knows exactly how it would change how they are run.
They could potentially spawn faster after a kill if CCP think they should always be available but at least a larger portion of the sites would be ran with some red bar which technically are at least a little bit harder... It also adds more time spent travelling to the equation. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
617
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 15:22:35 -
[1485] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Lan Wang wrote:not just talking about nullsec here we are talking about null and low and the risks compared to just doing it in highsec Yes, but why did they put a high profit gig like incursions under the protection of Concord? Wouldnt you think there is a purpose to that decision? They've said as much in the past, there was none. People were intended to defeat the Sansha in order to get rid of the NPCs who might attack them, their being farmed is wholly unintentional. They could probably start by just "fixing" this by making the incursion close after 2 hours of full blue bar. It still leaves time to form up the bigger fleet to complete it but no more 3 days of farming. From there, who knows exactly how it would change how they are run. They could potentially spawn faster after a kill if CCP think they should always be available but at least a larger portion of the sites would be ran with some red bar which technically are at least a little bit harder... It also adds more time spent travelling to the equation. Going from 72 hours to 2 hours seems a bit extreme don't you think? I mean I don't agree with the farming concept but you're talking about reducing it to less than 3%. DO you think that's a good number?
A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.03
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2407
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 15:31:31 -
[1486] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Lan Wang wrote:not just talking about nullsec here we are talking about null and low and the risks compared to just doing it in highsec Yes, but why did they put a high profit gig like incursions under the protection of Concord? Wouldnt you think there is a purpose to that decision? They've said as much in the past, there was none. People were intended to defeat the Sansha in order to get rid of the NPCs who might attack them, their being farmed is wholly unintentional. They could probably start by just "fixing" this by making the incursion close after 2 hours of full blue bar. It still leaves time to form up the bigger fleet to complete it but no more 3 days of farming. From there, who knows exactly how it would change how they are run. They could potentially spawn faster after a kill if CCP think they should always be available but at least a larger portion of the sites would be ran with some red bar which technically are at least a little bit harder... It also adds more time spent travelling to the equation. Going from 72 hours to 2 hours seems a bit extreme don't you think? I mean I don't agree with the farming concept but you're talking about reducing it to less than 3%. DO you think that's a good number?
If another one respawn? Sure. Just move to the next one. |
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
32
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 15:31:55 -
[1487] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Lan Wang wrote:not just talking about nullsec here we are talking about null and low and the risks compared to just doing it in highsec Yes, but why did they put a high profit gig like incursions under the protection of Concord? Wouldnt you think there is a purpose to that decision? so a decision can't be wrong? Sure it can. But thats not determined by a rararacarebearsinHSproject thread. Dont kill the messenger
How this fits in with the purpose and needs of EvE is for the devs to decide. Perhaps it needs tweaking? Perhaps it serves as another source of isk to keep more people in Null going?
Cheers |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13042
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 15:36:24 -
[1488] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
How this fits in with the purpose and needs of EvE is for the devs to decide. Perhaps it needs tweaking? Perhaps it serves as another source of isk to keep more people in Null going?
It does serve as another source of null isk. That's the point it's so good we're doing them. And when we do, we freeze out others who might want to do them (because any FC is going to pick a null alts bling boat over some casual high sec dudes t2 maelstrom).
No one in high should ever be forced to go anywhere, but people who live in null should make their isk in null. Fixing incursions might hurt the fat cat farmers, sure, but they open things up for more people (and for my part, they free me from the chain that is high sec incursions that are too damn good to let go). |
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
33
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 15:47:46 -
[1489] - Quote
Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE?
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13042
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 15:51:07 -
[1490] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal.
That's the wrong deal.
Quote: How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE?
1.5% of players on any given day are not "high sec". And bringing incursions into line with the rest of EVE would actually be a buff to high sec, because mission runners would get more value from thier LP, (because they would be less CONCORD LP converted into multi-run BPCs from LP stors the mission runners had to actually grind standings for). |
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
9350
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 15:54:24 -
[1491] - Quote
I shall file this - again! - under 'G', for 'Get A Room'
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
114
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 16:08:29 -
[1492] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Lan Wang wrote:not just talking about nullsec here we are talking about null and low and the risks compared to just doing it in highsec Yes, but why did they put a high profit gig like incursions under the protection of Concord? Wouldnt you think there is a purpose to that decision? so a decision can't be wrong? Sure it can. But thats not determined by a rararacarebearsinHSproject thread. Dont kill the messenger How this fits in with the purpose and needs of EvE is for the devs to decide. Perhaps it needs tweaking? Perhaps it serves as another source of isk to keep more people in Null going? Cheers
In the end it is for the devs to decide yes. It's our "job" as forum posters and players to get our opinions out there for CCP to see so they can make the most informed decision possible. We might not always agree with each other because eve is a very broad game with several player groups who are in competition with each other. However we should be mature enough to put aside our differences and have a proper discussion where we are all just players, and not just descend into "us" and "them" insult throwing and close-mindedness.
The argument put forward by many forum regulars is that incursion income is too damn high compared to other areas of space and something should be done. If you disagree with this statement then you should post the reasons why you disagree in the hope that CCP see sense in them.
A case for more AoE in EvE
|
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
712
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 17:04:22 -
[1493] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE?
That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
234
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 17:26:41 -
[1494] - Quote
Valacus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Valacus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:I don't honestly get it.
I do. Carebears always project. In this instance, they project their fundamental selfishness and dishonesty onto whomever they're arguing with. They have a selfish ulterior motive for wanting incursions to stay, so they assume you must have one if you want them gone. Hahaha, oh please. "Elite" PvPers are just as big of babies. "Waaaaaaaah! I can't force them into places where I can kill them easily!" The only one projecting here is you, because you're the one trying to force people to play or do what you want them to because you don't like what they do now. Well, it ain't up to you. Get used to it. I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything. I just think risk should equate to reward. You clearly think you are entitled to all the reward and zero risk. You're wrong. And you clearly think you're entitled to all the reward with your comparable risk, as it has been discussed to length that ratting in nullsec ain't all that scary.
Null-sec ratting is actually very safe, depending where you are.
But they are right when they say incursions in null are a problem. As those incursions in null could be in a neighbouring alliance controlled system.
I don't see the answer is in removing incursions but maybe null and low need something else on a comparable rate. |
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
33
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 17:49:55 -
[1495] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE? That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game. Not trying to be difficult, but in my limited experience with EvE I got the impression that you will not make people leave Highsec. They just wont. Nerf incursions or buff them, few will even take notice.
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
235
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 17:57:00 -
[1496] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE? That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game. Not trying to be difficult, but in my limited experience with EvE I got the impression that you will not make people leave Highsec. They just wont. Nerf incursions or buff them, few will even take notice.
You won't be able to force people out of high-sec. you shouldn't even try as it'll be a completely wasted effort.
If you want people to leave high-sec, then low and null need to be more appealing, but even that may not be enough. Because moving to low-sec and null raises the possibility of losing more stuff, which is fine in itself but it's the affordability of the player (perceived) that maybe the deciding factor and that will be different for every player. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
51
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 18:40:43 -
[1497] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE? That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game.
Only places in EVE are already partitioned the way you don't want them to be. It will always be that way, regardless of how AegisSov or you want it to be. AegisSov wanted to make people live in null. Well, news to him, but he can't. He can't make people do anything. Removing incursions just drives everyone back to mission grinding and high sec anoms. Mission not accomplished. Those unwilling to adapt will just quit EVE. Mission not accomplished. Null sec will remain at the same population or less. Mission not accomplished. The currently partitioned areas will remain partitioned. Since only 1.5% of people in EVE even run incursions, 98.5% of the player base won't even notice that they're gone. You really think that removing incursions is going to affect anything at all what-so-ever? That 1.5% aren't rich because they run incursions. They're rich because they're the hardcore 1.5%. They will simply find something else to be hard core about and still be rich and fat. What are you going to nerf then? Attitude? Limit the amount of time people can log in? Ban math? Nerf economics? Limit SP accumulation? There's nowhere in the aftermath where you get anything even remotely close to what you want from removing high sec incursions, other than removing content from the game.
You also vastly underestimate the extent to which null sec alliances that do live in null farm ISK and how rich said alliances are. PL and friends lost 59 titans, among other supers and caps, in one night and still managed to recover. I doubt even incursion runners could cover that loss not to mention not all, or even the majority of, incursion runners are PL alts. Null sec alliances are super freakin' rich. Don't tell me farming null sec doesn't pay, or even that farming null sec is high risk. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
719
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:19:59 -
[1498] - Quote
The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?
Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2409
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:31:50 -
[1499] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?
Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking.
Don't worry, people will find other stuff to put deadspace modules on. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2409
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:34:22 -
[1500] - Quote
Avvy wrote:
Null-sec ratting is actually very safe, depending where you are.
But they are right when they say incursions in null are a problem. As those incursions in null could be in a neighbouring alliance controlled system.
I don't see the answer is in removing incursions but maybe null and low need something else on a comparable rate.
Ratting in null is only as safe has the locals manage to make it. We don't have a NPC police force punishing every criminal action. We have to keep people out or hunt them out if they came in. |
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13042
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:34:53 -
[1501] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?
Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking.
Your problem is you thing everyone is like you.
If the price of balance is less wealth in my wallet from high end DED sites because incursion runners buy less bling. I say so be it. Or did you really expect me to be as selfish as you and your kind? |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
719
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:35:14 -
[1502] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?
Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking. Don't worry, people will find other stuff to put deadspace modules on.
The market isn't even buying up the glut right now... you want to take a few thousand Vindicator fits and dump those mods on the market and remove their demand too? I guess economics isn't important to this huh?
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2411
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:36:34 -
[1503] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?
Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking. Don't worry, people will find other stuff to put deadspace modules on. The market isn't even buying up the glut right now... you want to take a few thousand Vindicator fits and dump those mods on the market and remove their demand too? I guess economics isn't important to this huh?
We'll put the mods on our ratting boat that might get killed instead of on incursion boat that dies once in a blue moon. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
719
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:36:50 -
[1504] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?
Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking. Your problem is you thing everyone is like you. If the price of balance is less wealth in my wallet from high end DED sites because incursion runners buy less bling. I say so be it. Or did you really expect me to be as selfish as you and your kind?
"Your kind"
Make your opponent whoever you want them to be to make them easier to discredit.
But yeah, I don't run incursions because there is far better isk in this game than that... but you won't talk about that.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13042
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:41:33 -
[1505] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?
Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking. Your problem is you thing everyone is like you. If the price of balance is less wealth in my wallet from high end DED sites because incursion runners buy less bling. I say so be it. Or did you really expect me to be as selfish as you and your kind? "Your kind" Make your opponent whoever you want them to be to make them easier to discredit. But yeah, I don't run incursions because there is far better isk in this game than that... but you won't talk about that.
Your kind is high sec partisans and reality deniers. It's not just incursion runners with vested interests that do that.
If nerfing my imaginary space income results in a better Combat PVE balance in EVE, Then CCP should nerf it. I'm already asking them to nerf my high sec income (incursions), so why not? This game was much better PVE wise when CCP didn't try to throw 'rewards' at everything in themepark social engineering fashion (ie it was better prior to 2009).
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
719
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:46:24 -
[1506] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?
Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking. Your problem is you thing everyone is like you. If the price of balance is less wealth in my wallet from high end DED sites because incursion runners buy less bling. I say so be it. Or did you really expect me to be as selfish as you and your kind? "Your kind" Make your opponent whoever you want them to be to make them easier to discredit. But yeah, I don't run incursions because there is far better isk in this game than that... but you won't talk about that. Your kind is high sec partisans and reality deniers. It's not just incursion runners with vested interests that do that. If nerfing my imaginary space income results in a better Combat PVE balance in EVE, Then CCP should nerf it. I'm already asking them to nerf my high sec income (incursions), so why not? This game was much better PVE wise when CCP didn't try to throw 'rewards' at everything in themepark social engineering fashion (ie it was better prior to 2009).
But you know I don't live in High-Sec, and you know I have been in this game for over a decade. And you know these things because we have been over it again, but you continue to paint me with a false brush because you have no real validity to your argument.
Why It would even matter where I live or what I do when you completely skirt the idea of discussing anything without personal attacks and outright lies is comical.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13042
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 19:49:17 -
[1507] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: But you know I don't live in High-Sec, and you know I have been in this game for over a decade. And you know these things because we have been over it again, but you continue to paint me with a false brush because you have no real validity to your argument.
Why It would even matter where I live or what I do when you completely skirt the idea of discussing anything without personal attacks and outright lies is comical.
What comical is you pretending to not be a pro high sec anti null zealot. Where you live and what you do is irrelevant, no one cares about that but you.
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
713
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 20:27:55 -
[1508] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE? That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game. Not trying to be difficult, but in my limited experience with EvE I got the impression that you will not make people leave Highsec. They just wont. Nerf incursions or buff them, few will even take notice.
It's not trying to force anyone to do anything. It's trying to make null worth it for the people who are already there. If you like running incursions, sure, knock yourself out; very few are probably advocating removing them wholesale. What they are advocating is making them not completely disrupt the risk/reward equilibrium of the rest of the game.
The blood raider sites are a good example, a good model of how resources should work. Those sites being both limited and in hostile space generated lots of player content, and properly gated the opportunity cost of those goods behind both effort and risk. HS incursions are risk free, in safe space, and always available, yet pay out in large excess to those things that are neither safe nor readily available and accessible. That's why they are a problem.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
719
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 20:33:55 -
[1509] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE? That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game. Not trying to be difficult, but in my limited experience with EvE I got the impression that you will not make people leave Highsec. They just wont. Nerf incursions or buff them, few will even take notice. It's not trying to force anyone to do anything. It's trying to make null worth it for the people who are already there. If you like running incursions, sure, knock yourself out; very few are probably advocating removing them wholesale. What they are advocating is making them not completely disrupt the risk/reward equilibrium of the rest of the game. The blood raider sites are a good example, a good model of how resources should work. Those sites being both limited and in hostile space generated lots of player content, and properly gated the opportunity cost of those goods behind both effort and risk. HS incursions are risk free, in safe space, and always available, yet pay out in large excess to those things that are neither safe nor readily available and accessible. That's why they are a problem.
First of all the blood raider sites were not limited anywhere, they were all over the place, random. So not sure what you are getting at here.
Second Incursions are not risk free when you almost always have to move your bling ships through ganking chokepoints to get to the next iteration and the NPCs themselves are second to sleepers in difficulty.
Also incursions are not readily available or accessible as they at best support around 160 players at a time if both iterations are active. You start to lose massive isk per hour when you have to contest and someone is walking away with nothing.
1.5% of the population run incursions. No one cares about incursions except a group of butt hurt null-sec players who can't just ignore them and feel hell-bent on changing the way those 1.5% of the game play.
Personally I would love it if they got rid of incursions and replaced them with better content, but the way you guys are sneaking the "nerf high-sec" into the argument is ridiculous.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
713
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 21:19:31 -
[1510] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:First of all the blood raider sites were not limited anywhere, they were all over the place, random. So not sure what you are getting at here.
I'm not sure where you were, Market Mcselling Alt, but everyone who was undocked during the event saw a huge wave of content and activity over the gauntlet sites...and it wasn't just player meets rats, player kills rats, player gets loot. People were out looking for sites, running gate camps, evading hunters, trying to find as much of a limited resource as possible, or just doing the opposite and hunting people running them. Either way, there was a lot of player content spurred by PvE; this is the way it ALL should be. Incursions do not foster actual player content at all, its 100% against a computer....in a game that prides itself on player interaction. Their limited nature made the gauntlets worth fighting for in all areas of space - there was a trade off between Hi Sec (most competition) and other areas (actually dangerous). Incursions have the best income, in the best space - no trade offs, no interesting decisions, and even worse, no player content.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Second Incursions are not risk free when you almost always have to move your bling ships through ganking chokepoints to get to the next iteration and the NPCs themselves are second to sleepers in difficulty.
Single-handedly the most disingenuous thing I have read on these forms all day. The NPCs were challenging for maybe a week or so until the fits and site running strategies were refined to a science; to claim they actually present a challenge now is silly at best. Red Frog has what, a 99.8% success ratio of moving freighters through HS? I am not really convinced there is risk moving Incursion BS unless you actually go ahead and make yourself a target and make tons of mistakes during moving.
I have felt actually threatened once, ever, in an incursion and it was in null, and it wasn't to rats. So no, rats and things that go bump in Hi Sec really are not threatening at all. Essentially zero risk.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
35
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Posted - 2015.11.27 22:36:32 -
[1511] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Vic Jefferson wrote:Aquilan Aideron wrote:Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE? That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game. Not trying to be difficult, but in my limited experience with EvE I got the impression that you will not make people leave Highsec. They just wont. Nerf incursions or buff them, few will even take notice. It's not trying to force anyone to do anything. It's trying to make null worth it for the people who are already there. If you like running incursions, sure, knock yourself out; very few are probably advocating removing them wholesale. What they are advocating is making them not completely disrupt the risk/reward equilibrium of the rest of the game. The blood raider sites are a good example, a good model of how resources should work. Those sites being both limited and in hostile space generated lots of player content, and properly gated the opportunity cost of those goods behind both effort and risk. HS incursions are risk free, in safe space, and always available, yet pay out in large excess to those things that are neither safe nor readily available and accessible. That's why they are a problem. You feel you can restore the equilibrium by nerfing some niche content? |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
721
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 23:00:07 -
[1512] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Either way, there was a lot of player content spurred by PvE; this is the way it ALL should be. Incursions do not foster actual player content at all, its 100% against a computer....in a game that prides itself on player interaction. .
So your solution is to nerf the one PVE content piece that REQUIRES player interaction...
Tell me again how you aren't a complete hypocrite?
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15260
|
Posted - 2015.11.27 23:56:39 -
[1513] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: So your solution is to nerf the one PVE content piece that REQUIRES player interaction...
No, the solution is to nerf something that can be mindlessly farmed, whose only real difficulty is in a cost barrier to the expensive ship needed to farm the site, that gives obscene levels of income for how easy and safe it is.
More PvE should be like Blood Raiders, and much, much less PvE should be like Incursions. One of those is actually fun, while the other is just a grind festival.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15260
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 00:05:14 -
[1514] - Quote
Oh, and before you try and defend the obscene income of incursions by claiming the cost barrier justifies it, I'll just let you know right now that you're wrong to do it.
The cost barrier condemns it still further, since it punishes new players by setting it completely out of their reach and thereby creating a huge disparity in their earning power.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1944
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Posted - 2015.11.28 00:13:00 -
[1515] - Quote
nerfing it will cause nullsec players to not bother with them and the people who really want to do them will have more chance and less waiting, whats the issue?
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
717
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Posted - 2015.11.28 00:16:47 -
[1516] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote:You feel you can restore the equilibrium by nerfing some niche content?
Yes. There's no reason to fight over what you can get without fighting.
Player driven conflict is the lifeblood of New Eden.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:So your solution is to nerf the one PVE content piece that REQUIRES player interaction...
What part of multiboxing requires player interaction? Even in groups, it requires player interaction in only the most shallow sense, once you do the sites one time you understand almost everything you ever need to know, and nothing ever new happens or challenges the players. Takes maybe 30 minutes of interaction before all variables and challenges are reduced to nothing, so no, interaction is not really needed.
Compare and contrast this to say, a sov group that has to defend ratters running anomalies. Content is made for the hunters and the hunted, and the defenders - good conflict, meaningful player conflict. The opportunity cost of earning wealth this way is far more in line with a healthy risk/reward paradigm. Just like the blood raiders sites - player conflict is spurred, interesting things can happen, rather than the same boring AI doing the exact same thing.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Tell me again how you aren't a complete hypocrite?
Well for one, I'm not a hypocrite because I post with my main. Got a problem with me, wardec away, locator agent away, do whatever you feel you need to. I don't hide.
Second, I'm not a hypocrite because I have first hand experience here. Have you personally run incursions, DEDs, L4s, etc, in most or all different spaces in the game? Once you have done all of these things, come back and pontificate about how balanced HS incursions are, and how they don't drain New Eden of important sources of conflict, and cheapen the null and low experience by offering rewards with no opportunity cost. Somehow I am not the most inclined to take what you say at face value when it comes to what you have and have not done, or what you have or do not have first hand knowledge of.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
722
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 00:36:23 -
[1517] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: So your solution is to nerf the one PVE content piece that REQUIRES player interaction...
No, the solution is to nerf something that can be mindlessly farmed, whose only real difficulty is in a cost barrier to the expensive ship needed to farm the site, that gives obscene levels of income for how easy and safe it is.
Not even going to point out the hypocrisy of this statement when the 40 man fleet, organized and led by a competent FC to complete these "mindless farming sites" in any sort of timely fashion as to achieve said offending amounts of isk is not much dissimilar to the mindless pvp fleets of this game, where killmails are produced by careful and diligent work of a competent FC.
So the F1 key is apparently more important if you are doing it as opposed to someone else.
Well, like I said. Elimination isn't a bad idea. I can think of far better ways of having incursions rather than sites anyways. I would prefer intelligent AI that roam and disrupt player activity myself.
Just going to leave this here: Risk Vs Reward
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15261
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 00:43:59 -
[1518] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: Not even going to point out the hypocrisy of this statement when the 40 man fleet, organized and led by a competent FC to complete these "mindless farming sites" in any sort of timely fashion as to achieve said offending amounts of isk is not much dissimilar to the mindless pvp fleets of this game, where killmails are produced by careful and diligent work of a competent FC.
"competent FC"?
Because it really takes so much competence to broadcast target priorities?
Literally everything you carebears cry about nullsec players is 100% worse in Incursions(and don't tell me you don't constantly cry about real players, it's half your post history). You orbit the anchor, you press F1, you get a frankly absurd amount of money for it. (Nullsec combat is actually far more involved, because as it turns out, NPCs always behave the same, unlike the FC on the other side of the proverbial chessboard)
Carebears always project.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40994
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 01:00:45 -
[1519] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: That's an interesting article, however increased risk doesn't lead to increased loss. It leads to increased risk management so there is no loss.
That applies in Eve just as much as it does in anything people do. No one enjoys losing a ship, so people manage their risks to be as low as possible.
The basic assumption of the articles study:
'If ratting in NS is more dangerous than missioning in HS, what we should clearly see from the data is that more ratting ships are dying in NS compared with mission ships in HS.'
is a flawed assumption.
I normally hate using RL comparisons, however risk management applies equally in game as it does in RL. In RL, if a particular occupation or work task presents a lot of hazards, we don't just accept that loss will happen and people will die, we actively manage them to reduce the risk of death is as low as possible. It's really no different in the game.
The study that he conducted found that:
"In these high security systems, 69 PVE ships were destroyed in this month for 4.16m NPCs killed, while only 44 PVE ships were destroyed in those 8 null sec systems, and for a mere value of 23.8b isk for the same number of NPC kills. The most common PVE ships to die in HS were tengus and marauders, while in NS the most common PVE ships to die were (by far) ishtars, gilas, and VNIs."
To me, that looks like a success in terms of nullsec risk management, not a sign that nullsec is less dangerous.
It shows both that the likelihood of losing a ship in nullsec was well managed in the systems he looked at; and that the consequences of loss in those systems was reduced as well. There's nothing bad about that at all. Nor does it mean that nullsec is inherently less dangerous than highsec.
It's equally plausible (and definitely true on a daily basis within the game) that the people in nullsec used more ways to manage the risk than the ones in the highsec systems.
That's kind of the whole point of many of the positions in this thread. The risk:reward balance for incursions needs adjustment, particularly in highsec where 1.5% of the games population accumulate between them, the third largest amount of ISK flow (not even including the LP conversion as well). On an individual income level, that creates disincentive to take on greater risk for equal reward.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Vic Jefferson
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
719
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Posted - 2015.11.28 01:19:53 -
[1520] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:That's an interesting article, however increased risk doesn't lead to increased loss. It leads to increased risk management so there is no loss.
Pretty much this. Some of those systems that were cherry picked are nested in some of the most well guarded ratting pockets in the game, which are prohibitively difficult to cause mischief in. The difference is that this security is very much player made, and is part of a healthy content and opportunity costed ecosystem. Unlike incursions.
You run an incursion, you get paid. It pretty much ends there.
Someone runs an anomaly. This makes it so someone just wants to stop that person, because they can or because they believe in Gurista's rights. Then more people want to stop the guy who wants to stop someone ratting, for whatever reason motivates them. Content! New Eden is ALIVE!!! The ball continues to roll, and a healthy chain of causality fills new Eden with creation, destruction, stories and mirth.
It's a different topic entire whether null is too safe, or not safe enough. Even if I personally believe that null is absurdly safe and that content creation out there is extremely hard, at least it can be done. At least there is some appreciable cost or danger, which is infinitely better than HS incursions.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM XI
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13047
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 01:25:12 -
[1521] - Quote
So, anyone want to point out to that blogger and the Alt that there is a significant difference in total population between high sec an null sec. And that space with only about 1/6th the total population of the bigger space but with 2/3rds as many deaths is considerably more dangerous?
BTW according to the Alt he's some kind of accountant type that uses all kinds of math and stuff... |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15264
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 01:30:37 -
[1522] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: BTW according to the Alt he's some kind of accountant type that uses all kinds of math and stuff...
I too, can lie on the internet.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
261
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 01:35:54 -
[1523] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: And bringing incursions into line with the rest of EVE would actually be a buff to high sec, because mission runners would get more value from thier LP, (because they would be less CONCORD LP converted into multi-run BPCs from LP stors the mission runners had to actually grind standings for).
What are you talking about? What proof do you have of this?
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
722
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 01:38:08 -
[1524] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:So, anyone want to point out to that blogger and the Alt that there is a significant difference in total population between high sec an null sec. And that space with only about 1/6th the total population of the bigger space but with 2/3rds as many deaths is considerably more dangerous?
BTW according to the Alt he's some kind of accountant type that uses all kinds of math and stuff...
So you didn't read the article at all did you. It was from a year ago. The author attacked that very argument head on with the way the stats were set up. Same number of NPC kills, same amount of time, Null sec had less deaths.
Didn't you just post not 3 hours ago that what I do and where I live isn't important and didn't matter? Didn't take you long to revert back to blind hate and personal attacks did it.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
722
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 01:39:01 -
[1525] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: BTW according to the Alt he's some kind of accountant type that uses all kinds of math and stuff...
I too, can lie on the internet.
That you have definitely proven.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
760
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 01:41:59 -
[1526] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: Not even going to point out the hypocrisy of this statement when the 40 man fleet, organized and led by a competent FC to complete these "mindless farming sites" in any sort of timely fashion as to achieve said offending amounts of isk is not much dissimilar to the mindless pvp fleets of this game, where killmails are produced by careful and diligent work of a competent FC.
"competent FC"? Because it really takes so much competence to broadcast target priorities? Literally everything you carebears cry about nullsec players is 100% worse in Incursions(and don't tell me you don't constantly cry about real players, it's half your post history). You orbit the anchor, you press F1, you get a frankly absurd amount of money for it. (Nullsec combat is actually far more involved, because as it turns out, NPCs always behave the same, unlike the FC on the other side of the proverbial chessboard) Carebears always project. Gotta agree with Kaarous. Difference between pvp F1 monkeys and Incursion F1 monkeys is that the pvp FC is heading into an unregulated system. A competent incursion FC is only so if they can stick to the plan. A true competent fc was those of us who lead fleets into the incursion sites for the first time, in affordable ships cause we knew we would lose some. If suddenly mid site, everything turned on their heads in an incursion? Could the FC react and adapt or timely make a fall back call? Can they leave peeps behind if need be to save a greater majority? That is a good FC
I complain about nullsec myself for the other side, but it never is the FC side. A fail FC people stop flying with. The fact that in nullsec blobs rule is only a matter of proper war planning.
As for drifter incursions, is sad that the risk to isk has been so destroyed. Lack of meaningful pve means the drifter incursions are strangely deserted aside from small groups. Only activity has been when word of bugs to exploit have come up. No proper live events to get people excited, no content to get people used to having fun. What does a good FC work with in pve?
A bit of my fleet I found for another thread. Make do with what you got, and we were successful like this.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13051
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 01:42:16 -
[1527] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: And bringing incursions into line with the rest of EVE would actually be a buff to high sec, because mission runners would get more value from thier LP, (because they would be less CONCORD LP converted into multi-run BPCs from LP stors the mission runners had to actually grind standings for).
What are you talking about? What proof do you have of this?
Typo, I said would, I meant Could. Unlike some, I'm willing to admit that I don't have a crystal ball. However in my experience, fewer people using an LP store filled with items people want increases the value of LP.
Incursion runners have access to EVERY LP store at negligible cost, unlike mission runners whose access depends on standings. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15264
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 01:42:24 -
[1528] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: BTW according to the Alt he's some kind of accountant type that uses all kinds of math and stuff...
I too, can lie on the internet. That you have definitely proven.
Whoosh.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40996
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 01:46:32 -
[1529] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:So you didn't read the article at all did you. It was from a year ago. The author attacked that very argument head on with the way the stats were set up. Same number of NPC kills, same amount of time, Null sec had less deaths. It's very easy to produce something that looks convincing on the surface, but that is driven by bias to prove a point that has already been concluded.
That particular study has some pretty major shortcomings, on top of it's flawed basis to begin with.
It's unfortunate because it would be great if he'd taken a more serious and measured approach to the design of his analysis. That would have produced something of value to us all.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15264
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 01:50:08 -
[1530] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote: Gotta agree with Kaarous. Difference between pvp F1 monkeys and Incursion F1 monkeys is that the pvp FC is heading into an unregulated system. A competent incursion FC is only so if they can stick to the plan.
Somewhat.
The major difference between the two is that the nullsec FC has an actual adversary, not just highly predictable NPCs that have had their behavior mapped out for years.
The lesson to be learned here is that PvP and PvE are not comparable. The only difficulty inherent in PvE content in and of itself is derived from ignorance.(or procedural generation, something I doubt CCP's servers can handle) Otherwise, PvE's major difficulty factor is completely derived from the actions of other players.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15266
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 02:03:40 -
[1531] - Quote
And before Chimpy McStrawman pops in again, I'll point out one more thing.
I am not saying that pushing F1 is any harder in nullsec than it is in highsec.
What I am saying however, is that the POTENTIAL for complexity, unforeseen events, and thereby inherent difficulty, is far higher in any PvP interaction than it is in any PvE interaction. Because you have an actual adversary to contend with, not just a computer script.
The only potential for those things in PvE comes from ignorance of the content you are doing, or from other players turning it into a PvP interaction.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
261
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 02:10:48 -
[1532] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:nerfing it will cause nullsec players to not bother with them and the people who really want to do them will have more chance and less waiting, whats the issue?
Hmm, a good point, but the problem is how badly you null players want them nerfed. And if they do get nerfed, will something else in hi-sec get targeted? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15272
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 02:17:45 -
[1533] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:but the problem is how badly you null players want them nerfed.
Are you seriously saying that the truth of their statements doesn't matter, just because of who is saying it?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13053
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 02:34:09 -
[1534] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:So you didn't read the article at all did you. It was from a year ago. The author attacked that very argument head on with the way the stats were set up. Same number of NPC kills, same amount of time, Null sec had less deaths. It's very easy to produce something that looks convincing on the surface, but that is driven by bias to prove a point that has already been concluded. That particular study has some pretty major shortcomings, on top of it's flawed basis to begin with. It's unfortunate because it would be great if he'd taken a more serious and measured approach to the design of his analysis. That would have produced something of value to us all.
It was flawed, mainly in my mind because it dodn't measure the thing it was trying to measure: danger. Danger in this game is "the chance of suffering a ship loss".
That's how we do it in real life. That's why if you have a city with 1000 people and 100 murders, and another city with 100 people and 11 murders, the city with 11 murders is more dangerous, because the chance of dying is higher. For the bloggers analysis to work he would have needed to know how many people were in the systems under consideration in the 1st place (hint, there will be more people in high sec mission running systems than in null sec ratting systems).
Also, the price tags of the ships prove the opposite of the of the blogger in the exact same way high sec incursions do. In the past people have linked 5 bil isk incursion ship killmails as proof that incursions were dangerous. They didn't understand that the existence of 5 billion isk pve ships proves the space is safer than null...because you can use 5 bil isk pve ships and expect to survive. Likewise you can't use maraduers in null, and while some of the kills were carriers, most were 'throwaway' ishtars and VNIs and some Gilas.
If Null were as safe as high sec partisans want you to believe, the price tags of the ships killed wold be uniformly higher.
At the end of the day, what we have is another case of MMAing . Inamed for Market McSelling Alt, it is the practice of linking something thinking it supports your argument when in reality it disproves your argument, like he did when he linked a graph showing incursion runners generated the 3rd largest isk faucet after he admitted that few people run incursions (a situation recently confirmed by CCP Quants postings). Or like the time when he linked another graph he thought showed that high sec was more dangerous but that really showed that more value is killed in null sec overall.
Don't be an MMA... |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15272
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 02:39:23 -
[1535] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:like he did when he linked a graph showing incursion runners generated the 3rd largest isk faucet after he admitted that few people run incursions (a situation recently confirmed by CCP Quants postings).
That was hilarious. If anything guaranteed an incoming nerf to incursions, it was showing that such a tiny percentage of the community generates such a hugely disproportionate amount of the isk. (And hell, incursions don't just give isk)
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
762
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 02:51:35 -
[1536] - Quote
The sad part is incursions don't need a nerf per se. When we started incursions right after release, ship losses were common and we had to balance the value of the ship to expected losses. We lost ships due to the unknown, stuff catching us and would have to adapt, but ship still died. Was fun. A 15 minute vanguard was considered good. HQs could take up to an hour iirc. Lower dps, needing specialized tackle, and patience to maintain control and observe were the factors. With this in mind, isk wasn't really that great, but the unpredictable and active/reactive nature made them fun enough to be sustainable.
So really, sansha do not need the nerf, they need a reinvention. Once bugs are out of the drifter AI, that is a potential. It opens up CCP to make for reactive ships in the incursions. Same sites, but without the same predictable nature. This means fleets will need to be more diverse to account for the unknown. That means better FCs, and a return of risk. In reality, it would drop income, but from a gameplay perspective, be a buff.
If people have an issue with no longer being able to farm, I point you in the direction of facebook where there are more farming games than you can shake a stick.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
41000
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 03:13:28 -
[1537] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:The sad part is incursions don't need a nerf per se. We could probably use any of a number of different terms: nerf, balance pass, update, redesign, etc.
Opinion about what the outcome should be, irrespective of what it's called, is consistent to either: 1. stop trying to nerf highsec; and 2. adjust the risk:reward balance so their is more risk or less reward.
The only thing certain is that eventually CCP will come around to looking at Sansha incursions again. That active development that CCP put into the game means that it's inevitable.
Of late, CCP appear to have been moving more towards evidence driven design, or data driven design and a lot of what we've seen with adjustments like the new NPE, identification of ships to rebalance, sov changes, etc. has involved CCP collecting log data to inform their decisions.
As a result, when CCP Quant posts this:
"You can see some interesting and unexpected things like the fact that only 1.5% of players run Incursions and 13.8% of players engage in PVP on any given day. The former is especially interesting considering the fact that incursion payouts were the 3rd largest ISK faucet in September, at 8.3T ISK, which you'll see this later in this blog, and on top of this is the added value of Concord LP payouts for clearing incursions."
Even though he isn't a dev, I'm fairly confident that when CCP do rebalance incursions, the data that Quant found unexpected and interesting, is exactly the same data that the dev team will use when they look at making changes.
So for all our discussions here, of the choices between status quo, making incursions an even larger ISK faucet, or toning them back; I think CCP will choose to tone them down.
There's a lot more data that I hope CCP also use when they make these decisions, but from all I see from devs and designers like Nullarbor, Punkturis, Karkur, Rise, Fozzie, etc., they are all pretty smarty people.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13055
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 03:19:33 -
[1538] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Markus Reese wrote:The sad part is incursions don't need a nerf per se. We could probably use any of a number of different terms: nerf, balance pass, update, redesign, etc. Opinion about what the outcome should be, irrespective of what it's called, is consistent to either: 1. stop trying to nerf highsec; and 2. adjust the risk:reward balance so their is more risk or less reward. The only thing certain is that eventually CCP will come around to looking at Sansha incursions again. That active development that CCP put into the game means that it's inevitable. Of late, CCP appear to have been moving more towards evidence driven design, or data driven design and a lot of what we've seen with adjustments like the new NPE, identification of ships to rebalance, sov changes, etc. has involved CCP collecting log data to inform their decisions. As a result, when CCP Quant posts this: "You can see some interesting and unexpected things like the fact that only 1.5% of players run Incursions and 13.8% of players engage in PVP on any given day. The former is especially interesting considering the fact that incursion payouts were the 3rd largest ISK faucet in September, at 8.3T ISK, which you'll see this later in this blog, and on top of this is the added value of Concord LP payouts for clearing incursions." Even though he isn't a dev, I'm fairly confident that when CCP do rebalance incursions, the data that Quant found unexpected and interesting, is exactly the same data that the dev team will use when they look at making changes. So for all our discussions here, of the choices between status quo, making incursions an even larger ISK faucet, or toning them back; I think CCP will choose to tone them down. There's a lot more data that I hope CCP also use when they make these decisions, but from all I see from devs and designers like Nullarbor, Punkturis, Karkur, Rise, Fozzie, etc., they are all pretty smarty people.
I hope they look at pve in a holistic way. The big problem has been CCP adding features (that have rewards) without understanding how those will interact. The PVEr in me says it's because they tend to be pvp focused and don't really understand the what motivates people beyond wanting to get kills or 'tears'.
Incursions aren't the only things that need reinventing. Missions, anomalies, FW, all of it needs a rethink, and they need input from the PVErs who aren't selfishly concerned only about their own wallets (or their hatred of all things outside of high sec) but who actually love PVE (across the whole game) as an activity in and of itself.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
264
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 03:31:12 -
[1539] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:but the problem is how badly you null players want them nerfed. Are you seriously saying that the truth of their statements doesn't matter, just because of who is saying it?
I only said that because most (if not all) the complaints against hi-sec incursions stems from null sec players. I've been re-reading all the posts in this forums and can clearly see that incursions are broken. But I've yet to read a proper post stating how to fix them without destroying them. And still waiting.........
Edit: So what if they are broken. I can't see the harm in one little broken aspect of Eve being this big a problem since it's only run by a very small commute. Even if they are change the only thing I can see happening is that null alts would find something else to grind isk for other than farming anoms 24/7. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15276
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 03:36:16 -
[1540] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: I only said that because most (if not all) the complaints against hi-sec incursions stems from null sec players. I've been re-reading all the posts in this forums and can clearly see that incursions are broken. But I've yet to read a proper post stating how to fix them without destroying them. And still waiting.........
And that requires asking yourself the question: "Are Incursions redeemable, does anything justify their existence in the face of how broken they are?"
And for a lot of people that answer is no. I would argue that carebear tears alone are the only reason incursions were ever allowed to exist past the first year.
Quote: Edit: So what if they are broken. I can't see the harm in one little broken aspect of Eve being this big a problem since it's only run by a very small commute.
That's not a saving grace. It's yet another condemnation, that incursions are so absurdly lucrative that a tiny, tiny portion of the population makes so goddamn much money.
So what if they're run by a small amount of people? Broken is broken. If it did not generate assets into the game world, it would not such an imperative, but it does(and tons of it at that). It harms the game's economy, and the game itself basically is the economy.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
766
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 03:42:34 -
[1541] - Quote
This will start a bit off topic, but hear me out. I am in a kind of abstract mindset processing this, so sorry if I get a bit repetitive or all over the place.
On the tweetfleet, myself and another were debating about the jump fatigue. I made mention about force projection. After much banter on the topic, it got brought up the issue of supplying being the real kind of hate on. Suddenly, at least for this discussion, it became clear. Nullsec lives off highsec. Not unknown, but the nullsec did not want to be self sustaining, nor was it really feasable. Highsec industrials, highsec manufacturing, and then add in isking to buy it from the marketeers plus plexing. Nullsec cannot survive in.. nullsec.
How does this relate to incursions? Plex, while ending RMT has been the big change to dynamics. Not much we can do about that. It is isk pure and simple. The only way to change this is to make nullsec and other areas more reliant on their area for non isk income. It is odd really, but a flow of resource map is required. Isk influx needs to be maintained to prevent pools, and is the only means of open trading. Contracts of course being a closed trade.
LP really is the best reward that eve has. The LP market contains everything players would need to fit ships. Mining and mission salvage gets the rest. Mining again, does not inject isk into the system, but still has value and subject to isk vs risk. So, what does this all lead to?
Isk should not be a main form of income in any direct sense. If you are a new player running missions, LP should be a major means to get the basic stuff. Ship insurance acts as a bit of an injector. Surplus gets used to sell. But here is where it gets important.
More localization of the rewards. A smaller income of isk means that the isk is used in your own LP store, or to buy what is needed from other people. A player then becomes more self sustaining. Isk can be used for essentially other faction things, but if you want that new ship, you will have the LP well before you have the isk. Surplus LP converts into items that other factions might want, etc. Not everything available from one source, or sometimes better stuff from another faction.
For example, lets say you are a minmatar player. Building a tough ship, but some of the shield stuff from caldari is better. As such, surplus LP will go to stuff the minmatar specialize in and that would go for sale. The isk from that sale, and your more moderate isk from pve will go to buying caldari shield tech. Flipside, if you are caldari, well the minmatar have more powerful missiles and ammo lets say. Gallente blasters, amarr passive armor, etc. It would be a very complex tree.
Now we can expand it. The Sansha incursions. Gimp the isk out big time, but dramatically up the LP. However, change exchange rate or remove the LP exchange? Concord get's its own LP store. Suddenly, the LP is what is used to get new stuff and upgrade ships. What it offers? Well the higher end implants, etc to make one more combat effective and sort of universal. However now since the LP is restricted, you cannot just farm it to get the iskies for plex. Tons of farming means a flooded market, and as such, self regulating. When it reaches a certain level, farmers will go elsewhere.
This notion again can be expanded to other areas. Improved negative pilot security and pirate faction standings. Have piracy earning lp so if you are working for a particular faction, it becomes more that you will fly and fit there stuff. Want to FOTM, going to have to run for that different faction, or hope that your sales of pirate specialized gear does well on market. Out in nullsec, the mining and such would need to be changed to make factory style production of T1 and T2 ships the best bet for your war efforts.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
766
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 03:45:42 -
[1542] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:[quote=Daniela Doran]but the problem is how badly you null players want them nerfed. Edit: So what if they are broken. I can't see the harm in one little broken aspect of Eve being this big a problem since it's only run by a very small commute. Even if they are changed the only thing I can see happening is that null alts would find something else to grind isk for other than farming anoms 23/7.
Issue is that it is a negative attribute for new players. It is a closed and disinteresting part of eve gaming and as such, will turn off potential long term subs. In addition, the higher wealth it generates creates a mentality that high value is the norm. I could never afford a T3 doctrine style pvp. If there is SRP, how does the alliance support it? In the end, the higher the wealth, the more exclusive stuff becomes. Eve is a sandbox, there is no new player area. The more exclusive stuff becomes, the more unattainable higher end play is to more entries. That is lost subs.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13056
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 04:02:46 -
[1543] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:but the problem is how badly you null players want them nerfed. Are you seriously saying that the truth of their statements doesn't matter, just because of who is saying it? I only said that because most (if not all) the complaints against hi-sec incursions stems from null sec players. I've been re-reading all the posts in this forums and can clearly see that incursions are broken. But I've yet to read a proper post stating how to fix them without destroying them. And still waiting......... Edit: So what if they are broken. I can't see the harm in one little broken aspect of Eve being this big a problem since it's only run by a very small commute. Even if they are changed the only thing I can see happening is that null alts would find something else to grind isk for other than farming anoms 23/7.
I don't like your attitude that something you know is broken is ok to leave broken. I heard the EXACT same thing with high sec lvl 5s (CCP acknowledged it was a bug but took 3 years to fix it).
Broken is broken. This broken thing affects people like me because it creates upside down incentives (ie I'm more encouraged to keep an alt in high sec to make safe isk than I am to move that alt to null to help me make isk and defend my ratting space).
And It creates an 'indestructible funnel" of wealth from high sec to null/low sec pilots to use. Income at that level should be attackable without needing a mom popping fleet. Point blank, if you want the kind of isk people get form incursions, you should have to take a risk.
To your credit, and unlike most, at least you did admit they are broken.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
770
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 04:11:32 -
[1544] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
I don't like your attitude that something you know is broken is ok to leave broken. I heard the EXACT same thing with high sec lvl 5s (CCP acknowledged it was a bug but took 3 years to fix it).
Broken is broken. This broken thing affects people like me because it creates upside down incentives (ie I'm more encouraged to keep an alt in high sec to make safe isk than I am to move that alt to null to help me make isk and defend my ratting space).
And It creates an 'indestructible funnel" of wealth from high sec to null/low sec pilots to use. Income at that level should be attackable without needing a mom popping fleet. Point blank, if you want the kind of isk people get form incursions, you should have to take a risk.
To your credit, and unlike most, at least you did admit they are broken.
The L5 thing is kind of funny actually. While yeah, the getting them in highsec chaining did make for some nice isk, the bigger part of it I found was that I needed to call a couple buddies to do them, and they needed logi. By that note, they were perfect for highsec in a gameplay standpoint. Have same strength NPCs, but some randomization to their behavior and a perfect highsec tool to getting players accustomed to ship loss and fleet combat. Vital tools and a bit of bait for nullsec lifestyle.
That is what highsec needs to be. A bit of flavour of what we want nullsec to play like. Exclude attitudes and politics, But highsec should be a teaser, with pve versions of pvp. No, I am not talking burner missions. Visual flavour. Burner missions are badly done and super boss npcs that are all strength, no skill are usually considered a sign of poor game design. Mission risk should be lots of lasers to make the call for reps, then gaining a foothold. That way people will want to logi pvp, will want to fleet, etc. On the flipside, there can develop a solo play style more like burner missions, but without the metagame play to get people wanting to do piracy and small/agile ship combat.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
265
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 05:51:40 -
[1545] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: I only said that because most (if not all) the complaints against hi-sec incursions stems from null sec players. I've been re-reading all the posts in this forums and can clearly see that incursions are broken. But I've yet to read a proper post stating how to fix them without destroying them. And still waiting.........
And that requires asking yourself the question: "Are Incursions redeemable, does anything justify their existence in the face of how broken they are?" And for a lot of people that answer is no. I would argue that carebear tears alone are the only reason incursions were ever allowed to exist past the first year. Quote: Edit: So what if they are broken. I can't see the harm in one little broken aspect of Eve being this big a problem since it's only run by a very small commute.
That's not a saving grace. It's yet another condemnation, that incursions are so absurdly lucrative that a tiny, tiny portion of the population makes so goddamn much money. So what if they're run by a small amount of people? Broken is broken. If it did not generate assets into the game world, it would not such an imperative, but it does(and tons of it at that). It harms the game's economy, and the game itself basically is the economy.
You want to remove incursions from game altogether? If content if this caliber is remove from the game then it needs to be replace with either better content or equal content quality than the former. Otherwise there be would a risk of say 3-4k players unsubbing because you removed their content from the game without compensation for lack of this content.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
265
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 06:03:05 -
[1546] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:but the problem is how badly you null players want them nerfed. Are you seriously saying that the truth of their statements doesn't matter, just because of who is saying it? I only said that because most (if not all) the complaints against hi-sec incursions stems from null sec players. I've been re-reading all the posts in this forums and can clearly see that incursions are broken. But I've yet to read a proper post stating how to fix them without destroying them. And still waiting......... Edit: So what if they are broken. I can't see the harm in one little broken aspect of Eve being this big a problem since it's only run by a very small commute. Even if they are changed the only thing I can see happening is that null alts would find something else to grind isk for other than farming anoms 23/7. I don't like your attitude that something you know is broken is ok to leave broken. I heard the EXACT same thing with high sec lvl 5s (CCP acknowledged it was a bug but took 3 years to fix it). Broken is broken. This broken thing affects people like me because it creates upside down incentives (ie I'm more encouraged to keep an alt in high sec to make safe isk than I am to move that alt to null to help me make isk and defend my ratting space). And It creates an 'indestructible funnel" of wealth from high sec to null/low sec pilots to use. Income at that level should be attackable without needing a mom popping fleet. Point blank, if you want the kind of isk people get form incursions, you should have to take a risk. To your credit, and unlike most, at least you did admit they are broken.
I say leave the broken piece alone for now because this broken piece has been instilled into Eve for a long time now. If you remove it forceably then you risk a collapse in unforseen places in Eve. Unless their is a fixed piece already prepared in advance to replace the broken piece, the broken piece should be left alone.
I imagine that Drifter Incursions is this fixed piece CCP is preparing in place of the (broken) Sansha Incursions once the Drifter AI situation has been sorted, just need to be patient. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15277
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 06:11:36 -
[1547] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: You want to remove incursions from game altogether?
I'm explaining that position, anyway.
Incursions should preferably be replaced by something that has some significance in current lore, that is neither easily farmed or absurdly lucrative.
Quote: Otherwise there be would a risk of say 3-4k players unsubbing because you removed their content from the game without compensation for lack of this content.
Yeah, carebears have been wholeheartedly advocating for the deletion of entire playstyles for a while now, so you can't even claim moral high ground on that.
Second, if you think three or four thousand people run incursions, or care whether they exist, you're nuts. They didn't even get that many unsubs when they finally ISBoxer cheaters.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2045
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 09:18:51 -
[1548] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Daniela Doran wrote: You want to remove incursions from game altogether?
I'm explaining that position, anyway. Incursions should preferably be replaced by something that has some significance in current lore, that is neither easily farmed or absurdly lucrative. Huh, kinda sounds like the Drifter Incursions.
Content that pays slightly less, is not currently farmable and has the capacity to be tuned as players do figure them out, and ties directly into the ongoing lore of New Eden. Group PvP content that is both challenging and dynamic like the original Incursions we suppose to be.
The gravy train that is the Sansha Incursions is about to derail - CCP Affinity practically said so at Eve Vegas. They have certainly taken their time, but CCP has finally gotten around to fixing these broken incursions. It is only a matter of months until the switch is thrown and the current Sansha ones are taken out of highsec and replaced fully with the Drifter ones.
It seems like the Drifter ones are much more balanced and in line with the orginal intent of Incursions. I predict many less threads like this one once the Drifters are the only game in town, and a more active low/null as the army of farming alts currently abusing incursions migrate back home.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15280
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 09:27:27 -
[1549] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Huh, kinda sounds like the Drifter Incursions.
It kinda does, huh? The second I heard about those, I knew the writing was on the wall for the current incursions. They even call it the same name for goodness sakes.
There's no point defending that particular golden goose anymore, it's going to get the axe.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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DrysonBennington
Aliastra Gallente Federation
246
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 12:02:59 -
[1550] - Quote
You could always employ the CODE Incursion Permit Alliance to handle the problem. |
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
115
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Posted - 2015.11.28 12:19:45 -
[1551] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Lan Wang wrote:nerfing it will cause nullsec players to not bother with them and the people who really want to do them will have more chance and less waiting, whats the issue? Hmm, a good point, but the problem is how badly you null players want them nerfed. And if they do get nerfed, will something else in hi-sec get targeted?
I feel like this is a good example of "us and them" mentality at work. You paint the people calling for a nerf to payouts as "mean nullbears" and yourself as part of a group of "victims" and by doing so you turn the argument into something bigger than the actual issue we are discussing. You've also got a slippery slope argument in there which is based on nothing but your own fear of other groups.
I have been all over eve (and currently live in highsec btw), and I keep on coming back to incursions as there is simply nothing else out there that pays as well. Something needs to be done and since income is all relative the simplest answer is nerfing incursion income somewhat. I have put forward a number of 17.5m per HQ site as a starting point, works out as 80m/hr (15min/site) with good groups (10min/site) getting up to 104m/hr maximum. Obviously vanguards and assaults will need to be scaled in line with the new values.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
734
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Posted - 2015.11.28 14:07:08 -
[1552] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Second, if you think three or four thousand people run incursions, or care whether they exist, you're nuts. They didn't even get that many unsubs when they finally got rid of the ISBoxer cheaters.
First Incursion runners are 1.5% of the population. If we are to believe people like you and Jenn who think the game is fine and isn't shedding subs, then that would make them well over 4000 accounts/players
Second I thought the defense to why half the game is gone and never logs in anymore is because of ISBoxer changes? At least that was one of the 20 excuses to why we are only averaging 19k online now.
Get your story straight.
CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.
40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
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Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
37
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Posted - 2015.11.28 16:00:49 -
[1553] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:[quote=Daniela Doran]but the problem is how badly you null players want them nerfed. Edit: So what if they are broken. I can't see the harm in one little broken aspect of Eve being this big a problem since it's only run by a very small commute. Even if they are changed the only thing I can see happening is that null alts would find something else to grind isk for other than farming anoms 23/7. Issue is that it is a negative attribute for new players. It is a closed and disinteresting part of eve gaming and as such, will turn off potential long term subs. In addition, the higher wealth it generates creates a mentality that high value is the norm. I could never afford a T3 doctrine style pvp. If there is SRP, how does the alliance support it? In the end, the higher the wealth, the more exclusive stuff becomes. Eve is a sandbox, there is no new player area. The more exclusive stuff becomes, the more unattainable higher end play is to more entries. That is lost subs. So, you want EvE to turn into an instant gratification mmo? |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13057
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Posted - 2015.11.28 17:16:39 -
[1554] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:but the problem is how badly you null players want them nerfed. Are you seriously saying that the truth of their statements doesn't matter, just because of who is saying it? I only said that because most (if not all) the complaints against hi-sec incursions stems from null sec players. I've been re-reading all the posts in this forums and can clearly see that incursions are broken. But I've yet to read a proper post stating how to fix them without destroying them. And still waiting......... Edit: So what if they are broken. I can't see the harm in one little broken aspect of Eve being this big a problem since it's only run by a very small commute. Even if they are changed the only thing I can see happening is that null alts would find something else to grind isk for other than farming anoms 23/7. I don't like your attitude that something you know is broken is ok to leave broken. I heard the EXACT same thing with high sec lvl 5s (CCP acknowledged it was a bug but took 3 years to fix it). Broken is broken. This broken thing affects people like me because it creates upside down incentives (ie I'm more encouraged to keep an alt in high sec to make safe isk than I am to move that alt to null to help me make isk and defend my ratting space). And It creates an 'indestructible funnel" of wealth from high sec to null/low sec pilots to use. Income at that level should be attackable without needing a mom popping fleet. Point blank, if you want the kind of isk people get form incursions, you should have to take a risk. To your credit, and unlike most, at least you did admit they are broken. I say leave the broken piece alone for now because this broken piece has been instilled into Eve for a long time now. If you remove it forceably then you risk a collapse in unforseen places in Eve. Unless their is a fixed piece already prepared in advance to replace the broken piece, the broken piece should be left alone. I imagine that Drifter Incursions is this fixed piece CCP is preparing in place of the (broken) Sansha Incursions once the Drifter AI situation has been sorted, just need to be patient.
We've been 'patient' for 6 years.
And "well, people are used to it" was the same excuse people used for high sec lvl 5s. It was really just selfishness on their part, not any love for the game or PVE. There doesn't need to be any kind of replacement for any broken pieces, it needs to be a fix for a broken piece that if it were fixed would tick off MAYBE a couple hundred fat cat privileged entitlement players.
Hell, most of us who actually run incursions would survive a rebalance, it's the fair weather isk hoarder types that would cry.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
776
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Posted - 2015.11.28 17:17:19 -
[1555] - Quote
Aquilan Aideron wrote: So, you want EvE to turn into an instant gratification mmo?
Not saying that. I am saying the opposite. That new players should be going into fight and dying lots. Being pawns in the truest sense of the word. A foot-soldier that will die, but a key for properly controlling a battle. Veterans becoming important power figures in a fight so that you have one cap supported by many subcaps. The breakdown of Eve's playerbase should be a curve similar to weapons falloff. A massive number of players, the new people, who represent the basic "instant" gratification of friggies and cruisers. As you go up to the larger T1 hulls and T2, some players have left, so fewer overall at this SP til you get near the top where the multi year veterans are who then command their wings and fleets in key powerful ships, but vulnerable meaning needs the rookies as a front line.
I guess in a way, it is instant gratification, but of a different sort. While they are in the big fights, they are dying and will then be wanting to go through the training for more specialized play and roles. All games are instant gratification, that is what makes them fun and retains players. So I guess in that regards, yes, I want instant gratification, but not instant top tier combat. It should take years and player devotion to an alliance and eve to become somebody of notoriety.
Jenn aSide wrote: Hell, most of us who actually run incursions would survive a rebalance, it's the fair weather isk hoarder types that would cry.
I would probably come back to the incursions if they became more free flowing and the mentality of the organizations went back to the ol days.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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