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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
575
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Posted - 2012.04.11 20:00:00 -
[391] - Quote
Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Oh and cargo bay genius.
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Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
131
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:00:00 -
[392] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: High-sec is the safest space in Eve
No. Totaly wrong.
00 is much MUCH safer as soon as you check local + intel channels. With NBSI it's close to imposible to die if you don't want to die.
In high sec it doesn't matter where you are as some random neutral 14 day alt in his trasher can be your posible death as there is no way to control it. Only way to avoid it would be to never undock.
Does CCP realy expect player to pay 18 bugs/month for not undocking?
Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Fish Hunter
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Renaissance Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:00:00 -
[393] - Quote
A properly tanked hulk can survive most ganks
Problem becomes that in 15min the gankers just increase their force, and win
A corp member of mine had a attempted gank on him one day, he was tanked with approx 22k ehp. The gank failed and he smiled. The next day he moved to a different system, the same guys found him, brought 4 destroyers instead of 2 and blew him up.
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Whitehound
27
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Posted - 2012.04.11 20:01:00 -
[394] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Yet due to bellyaching high-sec gets seemingly safer every "expansion". Does it? The Tornado and the Boomrang manoeuvre were certainly proof of the opposite and it forced CCP to do something or to give up high-sec. Even with the recent safety change is the Tornado the new number one gank ship. |
Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:02:00 -
[395] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: A properly fitted and flown Hulk should be able to survive most, if not all, gank attempts in high-sec.
And for the cost of that one properly fitted Hulk, you can go through 6+ Covetors that are next to worthless to a hi-sec ganker, salvage-wise.
Less reward for their risk, as it were :)
I've only lost two. Both times involved restrooms. I'm a lot like Vincent Vega from Pulp Fiction in that respect. The replacement costs on those ships was far less than the initial purchase of that single Hulk.
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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
575
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:02:00 -
[396] - Quote
Fish Hunter wrote:A properly tanked hulk can survive most ganks
Problem becomes that in 15min the gankers just increase their force, and win
A corp member of mine had a attempted gank on him one day, he was tanked with approx 22k ehp. The gank failed and he smiled. The next day he moved to a different system, the same guys found him, brought 4 destroyers instead of 2 and blew him up.
Then maybe he should have marked them as red, bookmarked them and payed attention when they entered system. Yea?
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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
575
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:06:00 -
[397] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Oh and cargo bay genius. Ore yield when dead: 0 Ore yield when alive: 900/second Jetisson your cargo and come back in an Iteron V.
I'll let this one go because seem new to EVE
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Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
390
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:07:00 -
[398] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
Do you realize that the reason for this is more than simply making it easier to stay in a group to make your haulers life easier?
not really on point but why do Marauders have +tractor range? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
286
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:08:00 -
[399] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Aranakas wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Oh and cargo bay genius. Ore yield when dead: 0 Ore yield when alive: 900/second Jetisson your cargo and come back in an Iteron V. So the gankers don't gank your hulk but your Iteron V to lough again as they doestroyed all your work within second?
An Iteron V costs like 5mil. 5mil and some ore is a lot better than 500mil and some ore if you were flying a Hulk.
I used to mine all the time in an Osprey before I realized mining was a boring **** profession. If I could do it in a cruiser, you can do it in a battleship. Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Prince Kobol
533
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:08:00 -
[400] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:My second point is that the Hulk is designed to withstand space that is far more hostile than highsec. People then take this design and cripple it with poor fits to the point where, not only can't it survive the harsh space it was designed for, but it can't even survive in highsec. The ship is inherently capable of much more than people are letting it be.
Ganks are not unique to highsec, and in fact, in highsec, you can drastically reduce the risk of being killed by one through the simple act of fitting a proper tank. Ganks most certainly don't make highsec any less safe than other parts of spaceGǪ Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls. ups ... not posible as the Hulk hasn't even enough PG for 1 LSE
Why are you comparing combat ships with mining ships? |
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Whitehound
27
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Posted - 2012.04.11 20:10:00 -
[401] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Of course not, but as pointed out above, the whole line of reasoning that there is no reason to pick the Hulk over the Covetor kind of falls apart when you look at the numbers. ... Try not to look at the numbers then. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
313
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:11:00 -
[402] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:Of course not, but as pointed out above, the whole line of reasoning that there is no reason to pick the Hulk over the Covetor kind of falls apart when you look at the numbers. ... Try not to look at the numbers then. /thread TBFH. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
7
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Posted - 2012.04.11 20:11:00 -
[403] - Quote
it seems to me, all the comparisons are a little skewed.
nay sayers say Tank the hulk. it's the only way. Combat ships lose DPS if they tank their ship. You talk as if the hulk should be in a fleet.The thing you seem to forget. In a fleet. You fit your role. IE DPS. EWAR. War links bla bla bla. In a fleet by that comparison the hulk should be able to fit it's role. By the same comparison, you dont see 1 destroyer going into a fleet of combat ships, and Picking off a cruiser. (Hi sec)
It is imbalanced. Even if you are in a fleet with 1 million combat ships protecting you. You cannot do anything before the ganker attacks. So even Fleeted the Hulk must gimp its use to survive.
Solo Hulks like all things, should find a happy medium between tank and usefulness. But again. There is not really a happy medium for the hulk.
For those that say TANK TANK TANK. You are not getting the whole picture. I have stated where there is imbalance. And it is using your own arguements in using fleets. If a hulk is fleeted it should be able to fit for its role. Would you take a logi into an Incursion if it maxed out its tank? at the expense of its role? would you?
I'll leave you to figure it out. It has a fleet role and no matter how you paint it. It cannot perform that roll to maximum performance if it needs to lose performance.
o7 |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
593
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:11:00 -
[404] - Quote
Quote:So, let's just get to the point that you don't want to get to: why on earth should Hulks be buffed?
More of your drama queen horse ****. This was the topic from the start Captain Obvious.
The investment in SP and materials for a hulk is considerable compared to its T1 variant. It's capabilities do not reflect that investment as much as other classes of ships that have T1 and T2 variants. It falls short.
Increasing yields to make up for this short fall, in an environment of over supply, till the 24th anyway as far as we know, isn't a good idea. Nor increasing its hold, time and transportation can't be too easy. This leaves survivability.
Divisions of labor and specialization should be encouraged in Eve, not discouraged by and overcome by a few 3 day old biomass giggle gankbears in cheap destroyers. Increasing survivability and having the ship cost more in terms of materials would further the development and value of specialization.
As pointed out earlier, crimewatch 2 may very well change this entire dynamic anyway and this whole conversation could become far less relevant. |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
131
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:12:00 -
[405] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:My second point is that the Hulk is designed to withstand space that is far more hostile than highsec. People then take this design and cripple it with poor fits to the point where, not only can't it survive the harsh space it was designed for, but it can't even survive in highsec. The ship is inherently capable of much more than people are letting it be.
Ganks are not unique to highsec, and in fact, in highsec, you can drastically reduce the risk of being killed by one through the simple act of fitting a proper tank. Ganks most certainly don't make highsec any less safe than other parts of spaceGǪ Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls. ups ... not posible as the Hulk hasn't even enough PG for 1 LSE Why are you comparing combat ships with mining ships? I compare Tech 2 BC hulls with Tech 2 BC hulls.
Role mining = no weapon high but mining high
Why the other gimps? Any real reason except "we want eazy targets"? Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:12:00 -
[406] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Tippia wrote:Of course not, but as pointed out above, the whole line of reasoning that there is no reason to pick the Hulk over the Covetor kind of falls apart when you look at the numbers. ... Try not to look at the numbers then. Yes. Let's make changes to the game based on complete fabrications rather than the facts.
Also, wohaGǪ did a whole bunch of posts just get nuked? People's quotes are all over the place and the posts they quote no longer exist.
Jojo Jackson wrote:Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls. GǪexcept that the Exhumers are not T2 BCs, so you can stop with that nonsense comparison.
They can already fit a proper tank. People just choose not to, and then complain that their untanked ships are weak.
Quote:I compare Tech 2 BC hulls with Tech 2 BC hulls. No. You're comparing T2 BC hulls with T2 mining barge hulls. Mining barges Gëá BCs. Exhumers Gëá command ships. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Prince Kobol
534
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:15:00 -
[407] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Tippia wrote:My second point is that the Hulk is designed to withstand space that is far more hostile than highsec. People then take this design and cripple it with poor fits to the point where, not only can't it survive the harsh space it was designed for, but it can't even survive in highsec. The ship is inherently capable of much more than people are letting it be.
Ganks are not unique to highsec, and in fact, in highsec, you can drastically reduce the risk of being killed by one through the simple act of fitting a proper tank. Ganks most certainly don't make highsec any less safe than other parts of spaceGǪ Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls. ups ... not posible as the Hulk hasn't even enough PG for 1 LSE Why are you comparing combat ships with mining ships? I compare Tech 2 BC hulls with Tech 2 BC hulls. Role mining = no weapon high but mining high Why the other gimps? Any real reason except "we want eazy targets"?
Yet a Hulk is not a Battle Cruiser, its a exhumer or did I miss something |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
576
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:16:00 -
[408] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Aranakas wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Oh and cargo bay genius. Ore yield when dead: 0 Ore yield when alive: 900/second Jetisson your cargo and come back in an Iteron V. So the gankers don't gank your hulk but your Iteron V to lough again as they doestroyed all your work within second? An Iteron V costs like 5mil. 5mil and some ore is a lot better than 500mil and some ore if you were flying a Hulk. I used to mine all the time in an Osprey before I realized mining was a boring **** profession. If I could do it in a cruiser, you can do it in a battleship.
I'll field this one anyway to prevent others from accidentally believing in your stupidity. I once tried to do the same thing in a Ferox (which did better then a retriever in terms of ore) and then a Rohk. For starters, do to how broken mining is all by itself, you might as well get out and try to make isk by using a shovel instead. It is not going to be worth the time. You then add to that hauling the ore and travel time, and so it gets even worse if you're on your own. Which you will be because mining ops want ore ships.
After the fact, people eventually figure out that your "that guy" who always uses jetcans. You will warp away to your Iteron only to find out that, when you get back, the other guy has move all of the ore you just mined into their can (but they named it yours). So you can no longer get to the ore, and so then you need to get back to more mining. End result, it does not work in reality. Reality. That is an important thing for some of you to consider, because things don't always turn out the way your little brains imagine it to.
Reality.
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Whitehound
27
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:17:00 -
[409] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes. Let's make changes to the game based on complete fabrications rather than the facts. Also, wohaGǪ did a whole bunch of posts just get nuked? People's quotes are all over the place and the posts they quote no longer exist. Jojo Jackson wrote:Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls. GǪexcept that the Exhumers are not T2 BCs, so you can stop with that nonsense comparison. They can already fit a proper tank. People just choose not to, and then complain that their untanked ships are weak. Quote:I compare Tech 2 BC hulls with Tech 2 BC hulls. No. You're comparing T2 BC hulls with T2 mining barge hulls. Mining barges Gëá BCs. Exhumers Gëá command ships. Looks like you lost one or two. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:18:00 -
[410] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:The investment in SP and materials for a hulk is considerable compared to its T1 variant. It's capabilities do not reflect that investment as much as other classes of ships that have T1 and T2 variants. It falls short. GǪexcept that the numbers show that the exhumers are not out of line with what other T2 upgrades provide; that the popularity of the ships show that the capabilities are more than enough for the T2 variant to completely overshadow the T1 version; and that the SP investment to get to exhumers is quite small compared to other hull types.
In other words: what shortfall? Almost everything offered so far shows the exact opposite: that the Hulk is an unusually good upgrade over the Covetor.
Quote:Divisions of labor and specialization should be encouraged in Eve, not discouraged by and overcome by a few 3 day old biomass giggle gankbears in cheap destroyers. Sure it should. The fact that a new character in a destroyer can kill this expensive and low-to-mid req (in terms of skills) ship is a sign of good design.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
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bornaa
GRiD.
206
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:18:00 -
[411] - Quote
Tippia wrote:bornaa wrote:Copy paste, don't click it. GǪand the site only gave me proxy errors. Quote:And i am picking the best spot for both things I compare so its good statistics data. No, it's awful statistics data because you're picking and choosing between prices that are affected by different factors, and this makes them very bad for comparisons. If you want to compare prices, make sure all of them are subject to the same influences. Quote:You cant compare things, of lets say ores in RL, from one market, one ore is mined 1km from that market and other 20.000km. GǪand that's exactly what you're doing if you're picking the lowest price GÇö you're not actually looking at what stuff is worth on a common market. Jita is that common market, because even if prices are inflated, they are universally inflated and that's what matters.
So common market for you is only larger market that gives that price to damnation... right... that's 100% without any errors. That Ain't Right |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1504
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:19:00 -
[412] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Fish Hunter wrote:A properly tanked hulk can survive most ganks
Problem becomes that in 15min the gankers just increase their force, and win
A corp member of mine had a attempted gank on him one day, he was tanked with approx 22k ehp. The gank failed and he smiled. The next day he moved to a different system, the same guys found him, brought 4 destroyers instead of 2 and blew him up.
Then maybe he should have marked them as red, bookmarked them and payed attention when they entered system. Yea?
... but thats obviously a failing of the ship, not the player making unwise choices or failing to use the proper tools (such as his brain). When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
286
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:20:00 -
[413] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Aranakas wrote:Jojo Jackson wrote:Aranakas wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Oh and cargo bay genius. Ore yield when dead: 0 Ore yield when alive: 900/second Jetisson your cargo and come back in an Iteron V. So the gankers don't gank your hulk but your Iteron V to lough again as they doestroyed all your work within second? An Iteron V costs like 5mil. 5mil and some ore is a lot better than 500mil and some ore if you were flying a Hulk. I used to mine all the time in an Osprey before I realized mining was a boring **** profession. If I could do it in a cruiser, you can do it in a battleship. I'll field this one anyway to prevent others from accidentally believing in your stupidity. I once tried to do the same thing in a Ferox (which did better then a retriever in terms of ore) and then a Rohk. For starters, do to how broken mining is all by itself, you might as well get out and try to make isk by using a shovel instead. It is not going to be worth the time. You then add to that hauling the ore and travel time, and so it gets even worse if you're on your own. Which you will be because mining ops want ore ships. After the fact, people eventually figure out that your "that guy" who always uses jetcans. You will warp away to your Iteron only to find out that, when you get back, the other guy has move all of the ore you just mined into their can (but they named it yours). So you can no longer get to the ore, and so then you need to get back to more mining. End result, it does not work in reality. Reality. That is an important thing for some of you to consider, because things don't always turn out the way your little brains imagine it to. Reality.
Fit your Iteron V like this lol
[Iteron Mark V, Battle Iteron V] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Small Armor Repairer II Small Armor Repairer II
Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200 Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:22:00 -
[414] - Quote
bornaa wrote:[So common market for you is only larger market that gives that price to damnation... right... that's 100% without any errors. No. Common market for me is the most commonly used point of comparison, since it's one of the driving forces of the economy overall, where trading itself GÇö not proximity GÇö determines where prices are going (and where prices in the rest of the universe will go).
Jita is a place where you can find anything and everything under one roof; where everything is subject to the same influence; and where the volume is large enough to make sure trends quickly propagate through all kinds of goods. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
313
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:22:00 -
[415] - Quote
Can we get this thread moved to Ships & Modules, please?
It's interfering with our General Discussion. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
286
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:23:00 -
[416] - Quote
Forgot to mention: Crimewatch in the expansion will fix can-flipping. Aranakas CEO of-áGreen Anarchy Green vs Green |
Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
576
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:25:00 -
[417] - Quote
The Actual Problem
...seems to be two fold.
1, miners do not understand the principle of "tank" because mining is a profession that does not connect to PVP skill in any way shape or form. Alternatively, someone should have figured out how to tank the hulks by now, and it should be common knowledge. People figured out optimal incursion fits fast enough now didn't they?
2. mining in general pays at such a **** poor rate, that miners see a fit without mining enhancers in their lows to be a waste of time. Truth is, mining is a waste of time and not maximizing ore yield per hour is an even bigger waste of time. So in order to curb the broken mining mechanic, they end up flying expensive and tankless paper bags.
The Real Solution
Is that a tanked Hulk should be able to make a reasonable profit comparable to other professions in the same sec status of space. But in order to do that, bots would have to be addressed. It is not about Hulks, or gankers... it's actually about the damn bots killing mining and the economy.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
594
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:25:00 -
[418] - Quote
Tippia wrote: except that the numbers show that the exhumers are not out of line with what other T2 upgrades provide; that the popularity of the ships show that the capabilities are more than enough for the T2 variant to completely overshadow the T1 version; and that the SP investment to get to exhumers is quite small compared to other hull types.
Go get your numbers and post them with satisfactory detail and all your confirmable references.
Tippia wrote:Sure it should. The fact that a new character in a destroyer can kill this expensive and low-to-mid req (in terms of skills) ship is a sign of good design.
Your opinion does not make it good design. |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
390
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:26:00 -
[419] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Sure it should. The fact that a new character in a destroyer can kill this expensive and low-to-mid req (in terms of skills) ship is a sign of good design.
Gotta agree with T
But you should be required to keep those biomassed gank alts for a set time imo. Yeah its a exploit to biomass them but the ccp ppl are forever saying they dont have the ppl to watch every biomass so theres a big loophole https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6010
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:26:00 -
[420] - Quote
bornaa wrote:Ill just say XD and that you dont know what open market is. Good for you. Doesn't change the fact that you're using incomparable points of comparison if you just pick the lowest price, and that Jita is the point of comparison for goods in EVE.
Quote:Go get your numbers and post them with satisfactory detail and all your confirmable references. Did that already. Also, go read any of the ship popularity lists in the old QENs, in Diagoras' tweets, in the Economy presentations, and/or in the economy snapshots.
Quote:Your opinion does not make it good design. Agreed. The fundamental design principle of EVE GÇö that bigger isn't better and that marginal improvement comes at exponential cost GÇö is what makes it good design. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
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