Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time. With plexing, breaking up into smaller squads and spreading out to hit several at the same time is superior to having one blob move to plexGÇÖs individually, weGÇÖve seen this plenty already in the current system, nothingGÇÖs changing there. .

Lack of docking, for all its inconvenience, will do one thing for sure. The roaming gangs that attack the plexes in enemy space will be MUCH more likely to be smaller hit squads than large fleets, simply because its safer and faster to avoid the blob that everyone says will form up. FW gangs already do null sec roams for fun, and we donGÇÖt usually take a 30 man BS fleet to do it, for good reason. Lack of a place to dock and repair means that nimble fleets that can stay safe are much more appealing.

And thatGÇÖs precisely what Faction Warfare is supposed to encourage, small gang warfare instead of massive blobbing. I'm not defending the docking idea as a good one, I'm simply pointing out that there could be some positive side effects from it from a combat perspective that at least merit some *patience* to see how it affects PvP before declaring it a tragedy.

Were you ever able to accomplish anything in those nimble fleets you took into null? Do you think those nimble small fleets that can't dock anywhere will ever be able accomplish anything of substance in faction war occupancy? If so, how do you picture that happening?

The amount of time it takes to flip a system is changing. This means the side that can form the bigger blob will be able to easilly undue anything these nimble fleets hope to accomplish.

...Some good points here. First, to address X GallentiusGÇÖ concerns that the attacker will need 23/7 coverage to take a system, because the LP incentives will guarantee aggressive defense of plexes...

They gain the benefits of the upgrade systems, but they canGÇÖt farm plex LP at that point, they can only run missions or kill invaders...

I think if you fight "front line" battles you will lose out on the sovereignty. I believe there are better strategies that will help split the battles up and then combine for large engagements to ultimately flip the system (bunker bust)

[quote=Hans Jagerblitzen]Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time...

And with numbers being so lopsided they are, one side can send their own fast gang after the other fast gang while still outnumbering it and thus nothing comes out of it.

Not 100% true. When we started taking Caldari space, we found that we couldn't really hold systems more than 3 jumps away from our main bases. People just get too tired of defending systems that far away and those systems are pretty meaningless. The dedicated plexers just couldn't defend all that space. Since their is no LP for defensive plexing, there will not be an influx of defensive plexers unless you target the system people live in. The real test will be how long it will really take to flip a system and if you can distract the few dedicated plexers on each side with a diversional assault long enough.

One thing I don't know is lets say Minmatar take over all of amarr space so amarr can no longer dock in fw space. Will the minmatar still be able to get any missions at all? The missions send you to systems that the other side has sov in. Now we are winning sov not just occupancy.

Its not feasible to find this out from sisi.

If they can still get missions then they will be able to run them in systems we can't even dock in. If they can't get missions then they will be able to leave one system to he amarr and they will know all their missions will send them to that one system.

I feel like Im talking to a wall sometimes guys. For a moment have a positive outlook. Its easy to see the negative and not see what it could bring as positives.

I will spell out the offensive tactics on how this will work.

Your blobs will not work with flipping systems until it gets to the bunker bust.

Ex: Gal vs Caldari US TZ

Nis -3 days

50 man gallente blob was sighted. Caldari had about 20ish "sorta combined" people, we left.

Yes the 50 man blob will be able to wreck havock, but here is the thing. Caldari say FU blob and go run to another system.

Gallente are blobing their systems but the nimble caldari fleet is able to contest 2-3 systems before the blob can retaliate. What happens, the blob then deblobs into mini blobs to protect / hit various system.....

Why would the blob care that Caldari "contests" 2-3 systems and deblob? They will have forty hours to go over and deal with that system. Why not just keep taking systems right next to eachother so that if the caldari do try anything they can all warp in and blob them?

The blobs will be the only entities that can finish the job.

People just get too tired of defending systems that far away and those systems are pretty meaningless. The dedicated plexers just couldn't defend all that space.

Good point. I am not sure how the no lp for defensive plexing will work out. Will the defending side let the other side flip a system or two so they can then farm the lp? Will both sides greedilly farm the the offensive plexes and pass eachother like 2 ships in the night? I agree this is hard to know how this will work out in practice and whether this will actually yield more plex fights.

You do understand that people have defended space so far for no reward, aside from caldari COSMOS grinds. Main reason dedicated plexers do what they do is simple. They hate each others gut so much they are willing to put up with that ****. Hell, one of them (who supposedly is a father of three daughters) recently infiltrated our voice comms and delivered a message to me, which was about half a minute rant of "f..ggot, c.nt, ba.tard" untill I laughed and muted him.

Great example for your offspring by the way.

But I digress. Best example is of course yours Black Onyx Society which is basicly one guy with 7 alts and his sole reason for doing it is because he hates me. He also likes to go apeshit in local whenever someone harasses his atron alts but that's another story.

If you recall from the Fan Fest presentation, the concept is for LP to not just come from thin air, and thus be farmable. LP is intended to be stolen from the defender's IHUB.

Thus, when an attacker takes a plex he's hurting the enemy in a tangible, real way, every single time, whether or not the system is eventually won or not. That way there's incentive to plex even if you don't think you can win the entire system, because you can still hurt the system owner and affect his pocketbook.

Now, this raises all kinds of questions about the specific details, I'm not sure exactly what the mechanic is on SiSi at this point in time, but that's the idea CCP's running with.

There shouldn't be any real incentive for "LP trading" between alts as a result of this mechanic.

Because if the blob does not maintain smaller defensive forces they will lose their systems. Its very system blob goes forward smaller forces go around them. Remember the blob is not going to be a consistent 40 hr blob. Its not like star trek where the whole fleet just cruises forward together never ending....

Also the 2-3 could turn to 10-15 if the blob doesnt disband to deal with it.

While your taking 40 meaningless system you have now will have to go back and undue all the work we did on your systems.

Blob mentality will not work for this new system. it will only work when making a strong push for a specific goal.

As long as the blob stops you before 40 hours is up, unduing your work is easilly done with an alt in a altron. Why? Because it is just running a defensive plex in systems you can not dock in. Once the larger side has mopped up the area it will be easy to patrol.

I don't think we need to look to star trek. I think we can just see how it is done in null sec.

Now if the time to flip a system unopposed was just @ 1 hour instead of @ 40 hours then yeah I agree the blob would need to split up.

I think that if this system does go live though they should reset eveything. Then make it so that you have to gain territory in succesion. None of this grabing Tama and/or OMS right off the bat territory gain. You come in through a regional gate and capture the system, then move onto the next. This would force better fights and actually cause there to be a front line.

So from you logic, once we assault the plex you think that we wont keep assaulting or make sure it isnt left for dead? You do realize there is more then 1 tz right?

[
Every argument you make from this blob warfare mentality just is nonsensical. The idea that there are multiple time zones and that militia can cooperate at set goals undoes your entire argument.

The blob will only work for that final push, however if you never get to that stage it wont matter the size of your blob, there is too much that needs to be done for one solid fleet to accomplish. Ecspecially if one militia wants to setup a forward base, maybe 3 systems are hit over and over and whichever one that militia can push the furthest becomes the new forward base. There is simply so much more then just going into a 0.0 system and knocking out the Sov Unit.

Some good points here. First, to address X GallentiusGÇÖ concerns that the attacker will need 23/7 coverage to take a system, because the LP incentives will guarantee aggressive defense of plexes. Some players are discovering on SiSi that in the new system, there is no LP payout for defensive plexing. One of the commmunityGÇÖs greatest concerns so far has the need for elasticity in the Faction Warfare system, and incentives for the underdog.

By limiting plexing payouts to those that are taking space, there exists a reward for those that are fighting from behind that is not granted to the winning team. If one faction steamrolls the other and owns all the systems, they also lose their ability to grind plexes for isk. They gain the benefits of the upgrade systems, but they canGÇÖt farm plex LP at that point, they can only run missions or kill invaders.

[

I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.

Meaning: if we don't fight except in 1-2 systems, we won't have far to jump. Played a lot of RvB, have you?

Meaning: yeah, sure, you've enumerated many actual reasons that the change is dumb, and I've neither assaulted those reasons nor really thought through my single counter to it that you've already attacked --but really, even though I want one thing and you want the opposite of that thing, the issue is that you are trying to bend everyone else to your preference of play. Not me, though! No bending here! No preferences here! My position is completely neutral and your position is radical and strange.

No, LP for plexing does that. Station lockout makes people move their ****. Look: station lockout is probably coming, and 90 people in Amarr militia just finished not caring about two systems that just went vulnerable. Actual station lockout - outside of the one system they have all their stuff in, if it's still a lowsec system (why Kamela and not Tuomuta, which is one jump away?) - won't make them care more than imminent station lockout.

No, that's the conversation you want to have. You want to hear people whining that it'll be tooooo haaaaard, because it's a hell of a lot easier to say HTFU than to read and understand and reply to the arguments and scenarios that have been presented to you. Me, I expect station lockout to come, and I know exactly what I'm going to do about it, and the result will be that the alleged point of it will be completely defeated. We'll all adapt, and the post-adaptation world will be worse for this specific feature in the specific ways that we've said, but then FW won't die thanks to everything else about Inferno, and then you can come back and say, hey, what chicken littles those guys were, right? And now everyone set your alarm clocks, because this neutral POS that we'll all get a faction hit for attacking will go out of reinforcement at...

Here is a map: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar

Here is another map: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Caldari_VS_Gallente

Amarr are going be just fine, no matter what happens. Minmatar would be screwed by any turnaround in the war. As for the Caldari/Gallente side...

I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back.

I tend to agree with X Gallentius. The only reason I would think they should consider resetting the map is because they are just not correcting known bugs with the plexing mechanic. But that has pretty much always been the case.

Even if they reset the map I am moving my **** out of fw space anyway. I think resetting the map just delays the inevitable where the larger side will quickly dominate. I say the quicker ccp can see the stupidity of this system the better.


However I bet they will reset the map. They want to delay that inevitable conclusion as much as possible.

Because blob warefare pawns all amirite

Don't hate us because we have more friends.

Because blob warefare pawns all amirite

I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back.

What change happened that you think helps the side with fewer active pilots? "

I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.