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Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
69
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Posted - 2012.05.02 17:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
I havent read them yet, but here are:
Inferno Notes |
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
240
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 18:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Regarding LP for FW kills, it would be great if more people involved on the kill would result in less LP per person. Therefore making thing less blobby and enhancing the small gang aspect of FW.
I'm dissapointed to see that docking restrictions is being implemented considering Hans was very opposed to this and voiced it to CCP. And yet CCP is still boneheaded to implement the docking restrictions. Always smiling :) Gallente Militia -áPVP Corp. Selective recruitment open. http://iamsheriff.com/eagle.html |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
69
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Posted - 2012.05.02 18:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
I can see the theory behind it, but actual use will be sticky.
I think it would cause less problems if they just denied the use of station services (fitting, repair, clone, market, etc.). |
Pinstar Colton
New Lunar Republic Special Tactics Squadron
15
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Posted - 2012.05.02 18:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Just to be clear, if you stay out of the FW system you can travel/trade/dock/manufacture in any system regardless of who is currently holding sov there? (Assuming your natural faction standings are high enough for them to not shoot at you).
I don't make minerals. I just make ore 20% cooler. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
69
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Posted - 2012.05.02 18:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pinstar Colton wrote:Just to be clear, if you stay out of the FW system you can travel/trade/dock/manufacture in any system regardless of who is currently holding sov there? (Assuming your natural faction standings are high enough for them to not shoot at you).
That seems to be what they are saying.
Its pure lunacy. Though it will encourge more neutral alts. That is not a good thing.
I like the general idea. Just sounds like it might need tweaking.
Unlike player owned corps in 0.0, "griefer" corps can join FW without any player ability to prevent it. They can play with the LP and plexes to the detriment of the rest of that FW faction. It would be different if we could control who our "allies" are, but we simply cant with the FW mechanic. Locking us out of our ships/stations seems a harsh penalty under those circumstances. |
Dark Pangolin
Snuff Box
81
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Posted - 2012.05.02 19:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Who cares about the FW changes! Check this part out!
Drone Damage module (Extrinsic Damage Amplifier) GÇóCPU Rigs (Small/Medium/Large Processor Overclocking Unit) GÇóFueled Shield booster (Small/Medium/Large Ancillary Shield Booster), using Cap Boosters as charges GÇóLight and Medium Web drones GÇóResistance shifting armor hardener (Armor Adaptive Hardener)
Also i agree that a denial of services and having the station guns shoot at you would be more appropriate that locking you out of stations... |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
167
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Posted - 2012.05.02 20:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Shame about the no docking as that will just encourage more blobing for the obvious soon to come mad rush to gank every station system.
The idea that I thought would have been more viable was to allow docking but deny station services & have gate guns attack unfriendly Militia if they agressed anyone on the said station. In other words the station should treat the enemy Militia as if they were GCC if they tried to camp it.
By doing that and denying station services it stops the ghey station games but still doesn't make living in low sec FW space impossible for the more casual players.
At least for Caldari, if we ever got locked out of all the systems, weshould still be able to live in near by stations systems if we want to base in the backwater systems of Placid. We could easily live in the non FW systems around Ostingele, Aeschee or even Syndicate & Black Rise is already it just fine to base out of high sec if you have to as it's actually more of an advantage IMO.
As far as the Gals if they ever get locked out of all the systems they are kinda screwed as far as trying to base in Caldari space unless they wanted to live in Lonetrek. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
39
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Posted - 2012.05.02 20:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
I dont mind the lock out of stations. Here IMO is why I dont care.
1) Move your crap to high sec. Its not like there arent a high sec system directly across from FW losec. There are at least 3 entrances from each faction.
2) Stations will be used as a forward base (remote stations) to conquerer other systems.
3) Factions will now have to PROTECT their home system creating a true home system. If the faction does not rally together your crap gets locked out. Your fault.
4)The new changes forces FW to work closer together. *bonus*
I like the changes, and will be moving my stuff back to a high sec location soon enough. Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Lucas Schuyler
Mortis Noir.
19
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Posted - 2012.05.02 20:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think that at the very least, if they want to close docking access for MOST stations it would be OK, as long as actual Militia Stations remained open to "freedom fighters" trying to take back systems. |
mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
12
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Posted - 2012.05.02 20:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:I dont mind the lock out of stations. Here IMO is why I dont care.
1) Move your crap to high sec. Its not like there arent a high sec system directly across from FW losec. There are at least 3 entrances from each faction.
2) Stations will be used as a forward base (remote stations) to conquerer other systems.
3) Factions will now have to PROTECT their home system creating a true home system. If the faction does not rally together your crap gets locked out. Your fault.
4)The new changes forces FW to work closer together. *bonus*
I like the changes, and will be moving my stuff back to a high sec location soon enough.
ninja edit: I foresee Gals running from Nenn in explodable haulers soon
How is, potentially, a lot of players moving out of low sec to not risk getting their **** trapped good for low sec. FW inhabitants might not be all the people living in low sec atm but they do constitute a big part of the low sec population. Having that big part up and leave to base out of high sec is not something that I would consider good for low sec in general and FW in particular.
The thing Mutnin mentioned about station services and what not being revoked sounds like a much better idea imo. |
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BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
40
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 21:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
mental maverick wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:I dont mind the lock out of stations. Here IMO is why I dont care.
1) Move your crap to high sec. Its not like there arent a high sec system directly across from FW losec. There are at least 3 entrances from each faction.
2) Stations will be used as a forward base (remote stations) to conquerer other systems.
3) Factions will now have to PROTECT their home system creating a true home system. If the faction does not rally together your crap gets locked out. Your fault.
4)The new changes forces FW to work closer together. *bonus*
I like the changes, and will be moving my stuff back to a high sec location soon enough.
ninja edit: I foresee Gals running from Nenn in explodable haulers soon How is, potentially, a lot of players moving out of low sec to not risk getting their **** trapped good for low sec. FW inhabitants might not be all the people living in low sec atm but they do constitute a big part of the low sec population. Having that big part up and leave to base out of high sec is not something that I would consider good for low sec in general and FW in particular. The thing Mutnin mentioned about station services and what not being revoked sounds like a much better idea imo.
Because it is forcing FW to be FW and not a corp here or there spread out. Remember the purpose of FW is a SINGLE militia working together. Right now its like little pirate groups that are blue to each other.
I do not think that, that is what CCP imagined FW to be. I imagine they wanted it to be a giant alliance. In most alliances there is a "home system" They occupy other systems but most of the people do not live in the outskirts which currently many FW corps do. They live in a single home systems and base out of it.
If militia (gallente did this previously) choose a base location (like Hey was) the system would never be flipped due to the heavy presence of combined forces. Currently I can take a fleet and roam through the entire pipes without a problem. When you have more combined items (comms, stations, systems, bases) it makes for bigger better battles.
That is why I like this. It takes small corps and forces them to play in FW. You can still be a small corp with your own identity but now you MUST work together. Otherwise why not simply go live in npc 0.0 and travel up to kill people.
FW needs a big "ownership" buff and this is it. By creating a purpose now militia has to work together or suffer together.
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
11
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Posted - 2012.05.02 21:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Locking people out of stations is such a truly **** idea. |
Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
162
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 21:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Awsome http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
631
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 21:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Because it is forcing FW to be FW and not a corp here or there spread out. Remember the purpose of FW is a SINGLE militia working together. Right now its like little pirate groups that are blue to each other. Working together towards what? Part of the appeal of militia is that it allows for smaller entities to operate relatively or completely independent of each other... while still killing the opposing side as much as possible. A lot of us just have no interest in being "organized" like a 0.0 entity. In fact... many of the people I know are 0.0 "burnouts" who came to militia because they abhor the organization and "rules" of 0.0 groups.
BolsterBomb wrote:I do not think that, that is what CCP imagined FW to be. I imagine they wanted it to be a giant alliance. In most alliances there is a "home system" They occupy other systems but most of the people do not live in the outskirts which currently many FW corps do. They live in a single home systems and base out of it. I honestly don't think CCP imagined anything beyond "give people a cheap way to kill other people and have RP fluff stuff and stuffs."
BolsterBomb wrote:If militia (gallente did this previously) choose a base location (like Hey was) the system would never be flipped due to the heavy presence of combined forces. Currently I can take a fleet and roam through the entire pipes without a problem. When you have more combined items (comms, stations, systems, bases) it makes for bigger better battles. So basically, it's going to be almost exactly like 0.0 is now except with no bubbles, more neutrals, and low-sec mechanics. No thanks. 0.0 is largely static thanks to these types of mechanics as it encourages people to consolidate in highly defensible areas and "blob up" outside of them. For me, this is anathema to what FW should be.
BolsterBomb wrote:That is why I like this. It takes small corps and forces them to play in FW. You can still be a small corp with your own identity but now you MUST work together. Otherwise why not simply go live in npc 0.0 and travel up to kill people. And this is precisely the reason I do not like it. Many of us are smaller entities for a reason (ex. don't like rules, don't like dealing with certain people, prefer to operate solo/small, prefer different/oddball tactics, don't like dealing with political BS/drama, etc.). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Seraphine Keratuus
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
0
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Posted - 2012.05.02 21:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
I cant wait for the day the bears realize that we can stop them from getting to their agents.
As far as iam concerned..Amarr go grab every System with TLF Staions we grab every System with a 24IC and let the tears flow.. |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
13
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 21:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Seraphine Keratuus wrote:I cant wait for the day the bears realize that we can stop them from getting to their agents.
As far as iam concerned..Amarr go grab every System with TLF Staions we grab every System with a 24IC and let the tears flow..
lol, I've considered several times war deccing the bear corps that contribute nothing within my own milita. Then again bombers are such a ***** to catch :p |
mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
12
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Posted - 2012.05.02 21:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Because it is forcing FW to be FW and not a corp here or there spread out. Remember the purpose of FW is a SINGLE militia working together. Right now its like little pirate groups that are blue to each other. Which makes FW much more vibrant imo, creating inhouse drama, for those who like that, and more smaller entities basing/roaming over a larger area of low sec.
BolsterBomb wrote:I do not think that, that is what CCP imagined FW to be. I imagine they wanted it to be a giant alliance. In most alliances there is a "home system" They occupy other systems but most of the people do not live in the outskirts which currently many FW corps do. They live in a single home systems and base out of it. So what you are after is basicly just emulating 0.0?
BolsterBomb wrote:If militia (gallente did this previously) choose a base location (like Hey was) the system would never be flipped due to the heavy presence of combined forces. Currently I can take a fleet and roam through the entire pipes without a problem. When you have more combined items (comms, stations, systems, bases) it makes for bigger better battles. So how would fewer but bigger gangs make your roams any better if you are having trouble finding fights now?
BolsterBomb wrote:That is why I like this. It takes small corps and forces them to play in FW. You can still be a small corp with your own identity but now you MUST work together. Otherwise why not simply go live in npc 0.0 and travel up to kill people. No, it forces smaller corps in FW to either band together and form "a giant alliance" and play at 0.0 sov, which is not what low sec currently is, or should be, about imo, or move and base in high sec and do planned roams into low sec. Which ever it turns out to be it will make the pipes even less trafficked then they are now.
BolsterBomb wrote:FW needs a big "ownership" buff and this is it. By creating a purpose now militia has to work together or suffer together. Maybe it does but not in a way that promotes big alliances and bigger fleets and emulates 0.0 sov warfare, which btw is being bitched about to no end by people residing in 0.0. Does that tell you nothing about how bad this is when people who are experiencing it first hand don't like the way it works?
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
177
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 23:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
Why do I get the feeling we're witnessing the days of the Caldari militia? Be careful for what you wish for Bolster. Get your corp mates to go find another isk-generating activity because it's all downhill for you guys from here on out.
I would just like to know if we're not going to be allowed to dock in Caldari hi-sec systems ? (lol at the complete lack of logic w.r.t station docking) |
Pulgy
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
56
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 00:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Any word on the cyno jamming thingy? No range? No problem!Join the Church of the Holy BlasterGäó . A Hybrid religion. |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
128
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 00:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
Removal of docking rights is great. War should have consequences.
And remember; removing docking rights does not stop you contracting stuff, neither does it stop you using an alt to grab stuff.... OR... *shock horror* dropping militia for a day to move stuff out yourself to somewhere warm and fluffy where you truly belong.
It should provoke some good pew pew - Anyone crying about this change is being totally melodramatic. |
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SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 00:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:Removal of docking rights is great. War should have consequences.
And remember; removing docking rights does not stop you contracting stuff, neither does it stop you using an alt to grab stuff.... OR... *shock horror* dropping militia for a day to move stuff out yourself to somewhere warm and fluffy where you truly belong.
It should provoke some good pew pew - Anyone crying about this change is being totally melodramatic.
You think being forced to quit or use neutral alts in lowsec is perfectly fine? I don't know much about Gal/Cal space, but both of the major minmatar alliances currently live in systems that are "Amarrian Sov" but have been occupied by us for ages. Does this stupid change mean that we're all ****** just because it's still "Amarr Sov" even though we've lived in and owned these systems for months and months?
The total system station lockout is a load of ballocs and must not go through for the sake of militia. If it does (even if a few small parties think its the best thing ever) I promise it will be the end of FW as we know it today. |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
129
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 01:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:Removal of docking rights is great. War should have consequences.
And remember; removing docking rights does not stop you contracting stuff, neither does it stop you using an alt to grab stuff.... OR... *shock horror* dropping militia for a day to move stuff out yourself to somewhere warm and fluffy where you truly belong.
It should provoke some good pew pew - Anyone crying about this change is being totally melodramatic. You think being forced to quit or use neutral alts in lowsec is perfectly fine? I don't know much about Gal/Cal space, but both of the major minmatar alliances currently live in systems that are "Amarrian Sov" but have been occupied by us for ages. Does this stupid change mean that we're all ****** just because it's still "Amarr Sov" even though we've lived in and owned these systems for months and months? The total system station lockout is a load of ballocs and must not go through for the sake of militia. If it does (even if a few small parties think its the best thing ever) I promise it will be the end of FW as we know it today.
Good.
FW as we know it today (especially occupancy part) is bollocks.
I've been in Minmatar militia myself and you've got Auga, Dal and plenty of other systems that people base out of (I based from Bosbogur and Kamela in my time there). Are you really so important you think CCP should look at your case in a special light because you've based from your current home a while? Man up and adapt.... Is it really so game breaking for you and the rest of your militia to move systems until you capture your current home(s) back?
You conveniently dont even acknowledge you could drop militia (with no penalty or even record of doing so if you're worried you'll look crap) if accessing locked items is your beef ... Gosh, 1 day out of militia, how will you survive? You can base out of a POS if you dont feel capable of keeping your "home", or you could move your home to highsec which is where most other crybabaies live.
At the end of the day, these changes will freshen up FW and give more reasons to fight in plexes. More reasons to pew pew, isn't that why most of us are in FW? |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 01:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
I'm glad to see there are still people out there stupid enough to think being forced to use neutral alts and/or being forced to quit the very game mechanic that's being 'updated' is a good idea.
Please don't breed. |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
129
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 01:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
And I'm glad of some off topic concession rant about my breeding rather than a worthwhile rebuttal.
I'm just glad you've saved me wasting more time on you. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 01:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
So it appears to be the exact same plexing mechanic.
Hey, how often are plexing rewards given out? I did two offensive minors in an enemy system and I haven't been compensated.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 01:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
mental maverick wrote:
How is, potentially, a lot of players moving out of low sec to not risk getting their **** trapped good for low sec. FW inhabitants might not be all the people living in low sec atm but they do constitute a big part of the low sec population. Having that big part up and leave to base out of high sec is not something that I would consider good for low sec in general and FW in particular.
The thing Mutnin mentioned about station services and what not being revoked sounds like a much better idea imo.
Indubitably
Personally, I think they should add a handful more militia stations in the warzone (especially near Tama) and have the lockout only apply to them. The non-militia stations will add some flavor. Problem is, that would take more time and planning, not the rushjobhalfass approach I think we are going to get. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Grimfang Wyrmspawn
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
1
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Posted - 2012.05.03 02:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
So we can't dock in enemy occupied FW space, but can in their hi-sec?
Am I reading this right? |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
357
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 02:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
Grimfang Wyrmspawn wrote:So we can't dock in enemy occupied FW space, but can in their hi-sec?
Am I reading this right?
Yes amarr can dock in rens but not in kamela if it is occupied by minmatar.
Some people were complaining that this change with the short time to flip a system is a problem.
But in my opinion refusing docking combined with a long time to flip a system will be worse. Long timers just give the larger side time to get their big blob together and will just lead to sov null sec blob wins warfare.
It would be better if systems could be flipped faster that way smaller gangs can have an impact before the blob forms up and arrives.
But yeah it would be better if we weren't locked out of stations to begin with. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 02:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
Quote:Without going into exhaustive detail: 1. Cannot dock in stations that are in systems controlled by an enemy - Example: Minmatar cannot dock in stations in a FW system controlled by the Amarr/Caldari - You also cannot use station services if you docked before system flipped - Ninja Edit: This does not affect neutrals
2. There are 5 levels of discounts for a number of different things - if you own the system and have upgraded it - Medical clone discounts (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50% discount) - Number of assembly lines increases by 1 for every level - All broker fees discounted (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50%) - NOTE: You only get these discounts in the FW system - ADDENDUM: These discounts apply to neutrals not in FW
3. Militia store LP prices are affected by faction wide performance (discounts in increments of 10%) - Note that Datacores have been split and moved in FW LP stores - Pending implementation, LP gain increase for all ways in which LP can be gained in FW - FW Kills, FW Missions, Complexs etc
I do believe these are the most prominent consequences implemented/pending.
Ok, so those bolded parts there means I don't have to be in FW to reap the benefits of occupancy?
So can someone tell me again the reason for staying in the Militia as opposed to leaving and setting our standings/war deccing manually and act as true privateers? Just put a bunch of plexing alts in a separate corp, join militia and stick them in cloaky t1 frigs to capture plexes and fight with impunity on our "neutral" mains. I'd rather take the chance of fighting the occational fight under gate guns as opposed to not being able to dock tbh. Plus, no gateguns in plexes... |
Cromwell Savage
The Rock Hard Roosters Villore Accords
53
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 02:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
I'm not in FW to pretend to be in 0.0...
If the station dock denial is incorperated as it is now - full system shut-down....then FW can kiss my bullocks.
I'll drop FW...blue my remaining Gallente allies...and still shoot the same "people" I am now...
Absolutely terrible idea as it stands now. |
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
358
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 02:59:00 -
[31] - Quote
mental maverick wrote:Quote:Without going into exhaustive detail: 1. Cannot dock in stations that are in systems controlled by an enemy - Example: Minmatar cannot dock in stations in a FW system controlled by the Amarr/Caldari - You also cannot use station services if you docked before system flipped - Ninja Edit: This does not affect neutrals
2. There are 5 levels of discounts for a number of different things - if you own the system and have upgraded it - Medical clone discounts (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50% discount) - Number of assembly lines increases by 1 for every level - All broker fees discounted (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50%) - NOTE: You only get these discounts in the FW system - ADDENDUM: These discounts apply to neutrals not in FW
3. Militia store LP prices are affected by faction wide performance (discounts in increments of 10%) - Note that Datacores have been split and moved in FW LP stores - Pending implementation, LP gain increase for all ways in which LP can be gained in FW - FW Kills, FW Missions, Complexs etc
I do believe these are the most prominent consequences implemented/pending. Ok, so those bolded parts there means I don't have to be in FW to reap the benefits of occupancy? So can someone tell me again the reason for staying in the Militia as opposed to leaving and setting our standings/war deccing manually and act as true privateers? Just put a bunch of plexing alts in a separate corp, join militia and stick them in cloaky t1 frigs to capture plexes and fight with impunity on our "neutral" mains. I'd rather take the chance of fighting the occational fight under gate guns as opposed to not being able to dock tbh. Plus, no gateguns in plexes...
I predict the pve will give you mad amounts of lp. I intend to give it a fair shake, but it looks like the best bet will be to put your pvp characters in a neutral corp and have your pve alts in fw. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 03:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
Faster system flipping sounds like it would be in order here.
The enemy not letting you dock in their stations makes sense. Hell, enemy sentry guns shooting you when you get close makes sense. Having to gather together gigantor blobs to duke it out before anything meaningful happens does not make sense.
Faster system flipping and/or a more dynamic "contested" period is definitely what is in order here. I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
177
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mechael wrote:Faster system flipping sounds like it would be in order here.. A dedicated core of players can flip a system in about 8 hours from start to finish if there are no plexes piled up. Sooner if there are. Want faster?
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Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:15:00 -
[34] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Mechael wrote:Faster system flipping sounds like it would be in order here.. A dedicated core of players can flip a system in about 8 hours from start to finish if there are no plexes piled up. Sooner if there are. Want faster?
How many pilots in this dedicated core? I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:35:00 -
[35] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:Regarding LP for FW kills, it would be great if more people involved on the kill would result in less LP per person. Therefore making thing less blobby and enhancing the small gang aspect of FW.
I'm dissapointed to see that docking restrictions is being implemented considering Hans was very opposed to this and voiced it to CCP. And yet CCP is still boneheaded to implement the docking restrictions. Hate to rain on Hans' parade, but everyone was/is against it. It works in blob-land largely due to sov. being a linchpin for just about anything worth undocking for, numbers (pilots, income, et al) are considerably larger and they are drowning in bubbles and capitals.
BolsterBomb wrote:...FW needs a big "ownership" buff and this is it. By creating a purpose now militia has to work together or suffer together. Probably what they were thinking when the brain-fart oozed out .. but as with all such things it won't work. That kind of system works if sides are roughly equal (see every FPS made the last ten years) but here the various sides are insanely unbalanced; On Caldari/Gallente front you have a huge number disparity and no amount of Gallente uber-ness can fight against 4-5x the numbers for a prolonged period of time = Gallente gets to sit in highsec. On Amarr/Matar front numbers are roughly equal but with very distinct timezones, layout of the area is so immensely in the insurgents favour as to make it a foregone conclusion = Amarr gets to sit in highsec after a long but ultimately futile fight.
And that is before taking into account the potential abuse by null-monkeys .. enlist an alt corp, dump all their LP into a few systems and use it as the alliances private FarmVille, blob the snot out of anything threatening it (neutrals are to get full benefit of upgrades apparently ).
Station lock-out will break infinitely more than it will solve, but since it is probably merely a tick-box in the database it doesn't require work to implement and is thus highly favoured in Iceland
Mechael wrote:How many pilots in this dedicated core? And if that's true, then nobody should be here complaining about how they're about to get kicked out of their home station. Clearly grinding down that bunker isn't a problem. Enough to be able to outblob any opposition in the high-value plexes .. can be anywhere from 5-50 depending on timezone/holidays/activity. Station ping-pong was among one of the most hated things in the old null sov system, now we get to experience its revival.
By the way, since we already have LP-for-Kills and they mention it as a feature I take it the amount will be bumped significantly .. prep your alts for exploitation. With LP scored by repeatedly killing an alt and the LP raked in ninja capping plexes in the ass-end of the universe the navy market is guaranteed to be at its current level (ie. rock-bottom) well into next year.
PS: CCP has not managed to make a single change to FW without introducing one or more at times crippling bugs, so be on the lookout for hilarity such as the classic cloaking capture, victims getting LP for dying, stations firing on people rather than just locking them out, sovereignty inadvertently changing rather than occupancy etc. Personally love when FW gets "fixed" as it means I get to be bug-hunter for a week! |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
177
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 05:22:00 -
[36] - Quote
Pulgy wrote:Any word on the cyno jamming thingy? What? You want to give a mechanism for defending low sec systems from 0.0 supercap roflblobs to the militias? That would affect the Eve universe outside of FW (which I think the CCP dev said they wanted FW to do, but whatever... ).
It is better to offer near meaningless benefits to upgrading a system.
Name one low sec system where production is hindered due to lack of production slots.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
177
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 05:46:00 -
[37] - Quote
Mechael wrote: How many pilots in this dedicated core? And if that's true, then nobody should be here complaining about how they're about to get kicked out of their home station. Clearly grinding down that bunker isn't a problem.
The real question is whether or not implementing this feature will lead to more fights. Will we readjust our in-game priorities so that we bring more fights to the plexes. Do we engage the other side when we have a lower chance of winning than before the patch?
Will we decide that keeping sovereignty is more important than fighs and therefore we roflblob plexes - reducing the chance of a fight but increasing our ability to hold our system?
My guess is we'll see a flurry of plex fighting activity the first month this new system is out, and then one side (Gallente) will gain some dominance and then the other side (Caldari) will flee to high sec to keep their assets safe. As they flee, lucrative mission systems will fall, and many of them will either leave FW forever, or will spend significant time outside of FW areas making isk. Fewer targets long term means fewer fights long term. |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 07:34:00 -
[38] - Quote
Seraphine Keratuus wrote:I cant wait for the day the bears realize that we can stop them from getting to their agents..
1. The new system encourages militia to huddle into select systems that they can safely invest LP into and defend across timezones.
2. The new system rewards militia activities (plexing, etc.) with LP.
Does that combination of features strike you as carebear unfriendly?
Suppose that you wanted to farm LP by running plexes: would you rather the serious FWers have four ships (minor, medium, large, bunker) all over the damned place, and for potentially everyone in a militia to decide that they're awfully fond of different systems which they'd live in and see you enter? Or would you rather them mostly not be around at all outside of specific systems, not notice your actions until after you've run a several plexes, and have to make five jumps to switch out from the BC after you run into a medium? |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
170
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 07:43:00 -
[39] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Why do I get the feeling we're witnessing the last days of the Caldari militia? Be careful for what you wish for Bolster. Get your corp mates to go find another isk-generating activity because it's all downhill for you guys from here on out.
I would just like to know if we're not going to be allowed to dock in Caldari hi-sec systems ? (lol at the complete lack of logic w.r.t station docking)
I can't wait because then maybe all those millions of LP's I have stashed away will finally be worth something again when all the mission farming alts get locked out of the stations.. I can't wait to see them all join Galentte & Minmatar.. So please dO IT as it will make me very space rich.
In fact I tried to float the idea of letting you Gals take all Caldari systems now when they mean nothing so we could go get rich taking them when it's paid LP's to do so.. Sadly I couldn't get much support on this idea.. |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
102
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 07:45:00 -
[40] - Quote
well .... in a first moment I wanted to say CCP u F8ck1ng F8cke0 it again .....
on the other hand ... well if we got locked in system ... corp will quit fw ... move assets and go on ... jump into fw.
CCP helped blobing again and dedicated team can flip system in 6 hours .... hey gals ... how about flipping nisuwa before release?
I must say station denial is worst thing they come with .... overblobing is problem which they strengtened again.
Consequesnces i see:
1) people will plex more - defensive plexing with ****** ships alts will be golden mine (gals using bunch of these right now) 2) people will be pushed out of low sec - very very very bad 3) corp hopping will be normal - which sucks 4) This might turn fw into null like wasteland with alts running plexes (due to standing nature of FW agro u just need 1 or 2 alts to run on the button and rest of the ships poping rats. Especially all together with removing of gcc/gateguns fire from lowsec 5) One major alliance which will decide to rampant the war will totaly anihilate the battlefield by sheer numbers plexing and way how fast they can bash the bunkers. It is easy to lock few key systems and **** with major militia corps.
The main problem is, that it is hard to test it on testing server. So real impacts are very hard to foresee.
Dear CCP we dont want ******* null sec in lowsec .... one of many lowsec dwellers. We want more people here to fight and fights so **** out with ur stupid null ideas.
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
|
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
103
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 07:59:00 -
[41] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Why do I get the feeling we're witnessing the last days of the Caldari militia? Be careful for what you wish for Bolster. Get your corp mates to go find another isk-generating activity because it's all downhill for you guys from here on out.
I would just like to know if we're not going to be allowed to dock in Caldari hi-sec systems ? (lol at the complete lack of logic w.r.t station docking)
well that can be in general strong problem for each one timezone sides. Careful with that. If we cooperate we can tacticaly flip nenamalia, nisuwa and heydelis in 7 hours (we did similar action in last 4 days) when most of ur blobforce will be offline... and majority of ur assets will be locked in stations. Then u can come in early US timezone and lock our assets and war is over - have fun .
Or we all can move to low/null npc systems and just roll around in logistic blobs ....
Problem is that CCP is too influenced by nullbears and is not understanding needs of low (and even high sec) people - they really should stop being goons directors and should try to play lowsec/fw. I have never heard anyone from CCP to speak about development strategy for low sec. They still see it as a transition to null (which is bullshit).
And to Hans ... fail ... hope it will get better IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
132
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 10:15:00 -
[42] - Quote
I hope you do commit to actually showing up to flip Nisuwa, Heyd and every other base the Gallente use but I'll believe it when I see it.
Your posturing assumes people will treat plexing like they do currently and not bother running them. If it has meaning and a reward (more pew and actual LP) I'm pretty sure people will run them against you, especially in their "home" systems.
I know all you like sitting in one station and pretending you're "home" and it means more than the next system, but I think it won't be particularly difficult to use several "home" systems and prudently have ships in multiple locations (even use a POS in your home system - Shocking I know!), with which to counter and 8 hour rush plexing job.
All you station lockout haters fail to realise this makes FW a lot more interesting and adds more possibilities to the gameplay. My belief is you're all just too myopic to see how this will be good for giving FW consequences and making the war a lot more meaningful. If you had perhaps seen more of the game and been around longer you'd appreciate CCP messing with your particular playstyle is a good thing as it forces you to change, grow, learn new methods and become a better all round player.
It is a change FW needs. |
Cpt Cosmic
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 10:49:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:It is a change FW needs. changing FW to pseudo nullsec is not what FW needs. If you want nullsec blob warfare and wastelands then go to nullsec. also what are the consequences when I can just leave FW for a while? |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 10:52:00 -
[44] - Quote
mental maverick wrote:
Ok, so those bolded parts there means I don't have to be in FW to reap the benefits of occupancy?
So can someone tell me again the reason for staying in the Militia as opposed to leaving and setting our standings/war deccing manually and act as true privateers? Just put a bunch of plexing alts in a separate corp, join militia and stick them in cloaky t1 frigs to capture plexes and fight with impunity on our "neutral" mains. I'd rather take the chance of fighting the occational fight under gate guns as opposed to not being able to dock tbh. Plus, no gateguns in plexes...
Don't forget to have an alt in the enemy militia to anchor your safespot/booster POS's so the enemy will take a big faction hit if they destroy it.
Just like your corp does now. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
171
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 10:56:00 -
[45] - Quote
I guess the space riches & dreams of all the Mission farmers leaving if they get locked out of stations will be just that.. Dreams..
I just ran a major on the test server & it paid out 20k LP. While the time it takes to run is much longer than a single FW mission, they are still easy enough to do that plexing will simply become the new farm method as the NPC's are still going to allow for frigs to pretty much speed tank any of the plexes. So instead of having bomber alts all over low sec we will see more T1 noob alts plexing and driving LP prices down even more.
I had a second thought on the plex war front and even with the Gallentte blobs, I think Caldari can actually control the fight at this point due to how fast systems can be flipped under the current plex mechanics. Plexing for station systems will just go back to advantage of who has most guys on few hours B4 & right after DT.
Quick example of how bad this system is and why the no docking in stations is bad. Right now once a system is flipped it can't be attacked again until the next DT. This means even though Caldari are out numbered in the major prime times, a small dedicated group can grief the hell out of any Gals that choose to live FW low sec, after this FW update.
If Gals continue to base in Nenn for example, after this patch it only requires a small but dedicated group of Caldari to force them out of the system by using this new no docking mechanic to it's potential for grief play. Caldari only have to hit key systems like Nenn, Rak, Vlill & Hey to drive Gals out of low sec.
How can we do this? It's very simple Caldari have historically always had more activity just b4 & after DT. Caldari plexers only have to time making systems Vulnerable to right at down time. This means right after down time they can attack the bunker & once captured, Gals will not be able to get access to their ships til the next DT & even then not until they can spend 8 hours plexing & killing the bunker.
This means even if Gals try to take back the system the next day, they can't dock until it's re-captured and Then Caldari only has to wait til next DT to grief the Gals low sec home once again.
At first I thought Caldari might have issues under the new system, but now I think it will actually put the sov war back in our favor. GL gals, I think you going to need it if the current system goes live.
|
Johnny Punisher
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 11:51:00 -
[46] - Quote
If things really go really bad for us (fw corps), we could all just leave fw and do mutual wardecs against each other until things get better
At the moment I don't have that much time to play eve so I'd have to leave defending of my assets to others. Or fix my sec status and move stuff to highsec. Don't like it... Tho I don't think it's as bad as some ppl here have been theorizing. FW have strong corps, we'll adapt. |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
103
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 11:52:00 -
[47] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:I guess the space riches & dreams of all the Mission farmers leaving if they get locked out of stations will be just that.. Dreams.. I just ran a major on the test server & it paid out 20k LP. While the time it takes to run is much longer than a single FW mission, they are still easy enough to do that plexing will simply become the new farm method as the NPC's are still going to allow for frigs to pretty much speed tank any of the plexes. So instead of having bomber alts all over low sec we will see more T1 noob alts plexing and driving LP prices down even more. I had a second thought on the plex war front and even with the Gallentte blobs, I think Caldari can actually control the fight at this point due to how fast systems can be flipped under the current plex mechanics. Plexing for station systems will just go back to advantage of who has most guys on few hours B4 & right after DT. Quick example of how bad this system is and why the no docking in stations is bad. Right now once a system is flipped it can't be attacked again until the next DT. This means even though Caldari are out numbered in the major prime times, a small dedicated group can grief the hell out of any Gals that choose to live in FW low sec, after this update. If Gals continue to base in Nenn for example, after this patch it only requires a small but dedicated group of Caldari to force them out of the system by using this new no docking mechanic to it's potential for grief play. Caldari only have to hit key systems like Nenn, Rak, Vlill, Nis & Hey to drive Gals out of low sec. How can we do this? It's very simple Caldari have historically always had more activity just b4 & after DT. Caldari plexers only have to time making systems Vulnerable to right at down time. This means right after down time they can attack the bunker & once captured, Gals will not be able to get access to their ships til the next DT & even then not until they can spend 8 hours plexing & killing the bunker. This means even if Gals try to take back the system the next day, they can't dock until it's re-captured and Then Caldari only has to wait til next DT to grief the Gals low sec home once again. At first I thought Caldari might have issues under the new system, but now I think it will actually put the sov war back in our favor. GL gals, I think you going to need it if the current system goes live. Side note this mechanic seems to be lost on some of the Cal plexers as I tried explaining it, It got whined at by a couple that couldn't see past their 10 min orbit timers and thought I was jabbering up their plex channel. However perhaps they will read this post and understand. So Gals maybe you can live in Nenn a short time til they figure it out. Otherwise I'm looking for cheap BC hulls if you don't feel like moving them.
Well other option which comes to my mind, that I will create "Inglorious-Basterds state alts" where I will put all my militia alts - they will serve sitting on buttons and farming lps (in condors and some other ***** ships), while rest of the boys will be "suspects" in lowsec IBS.
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
103
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 11:54:00 -
[48] - Quote
Johnny Punisher wrote:If things really go really bad for us (fw corps), we could all just leave fw and do mutual wardecs against each other until things get better At the moment I don't have that much time to play eve so I'd have to leave defending of my assets to others. Or fix my sec status and move stuff to highsec. Don't like it... Tho I don't think it's as bad as some ppl here have been theorizing. FW have strong corps, we'll adapt.
to some level ... dont like the **** of nullbears on my lawn ....
.... get of my lawn maggots IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Mike Whiite
Progressive State State Section 9
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 12:14:00 -
[49] - Quote
Low sec has several stations that belong to different empires, I've seen Anmar stations in Gallente space and the same for others why would a Anmar station deny Anmar or Caldari Millitia?
and will Caldari stations turn Gallente when captured and the other way arround?
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mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 12:20:00 -
[50] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:mental maverick wrote:
Ok, so those bolded parts there means I don't have to be in FW to reap the benefits of occupancy?
So can someone tell me again the reason for staying in the Militia as opposed to leaving and setting our standings/war deccing manually and act as true privateers? Just put a bunch of plexing alts in a separate corp, join militia and stick them in cloaky t1 frigs to capture plexes and fight with impunity on our "neutral" mains. I'd rather take the chance of fighting the occational fight under gate guns as opposed to not being able to dock tbh. Plus, no gateguns in plexes...
Don't forget to have an alt in the enemy militia to anchor your safespot/booster POS's so the enemy will take a big faction hit if they destroy it. Just like your corp does now. I honestly have no idea what your talking about, I don't own any pos and I don't use any poses, corp or other. Doesn't sound like a bad idea though if you need to have a pos I guess.
I also don't see how that is pertinent to the point I was trying to make.
|
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JaneBudden
Spiritus Draconis
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:03:00 -
[51] - Quote
all the complaining even before its tested ... we will see how it will work out.
I really like the non docking thing,i also hoped that i would just affect the fw stations but we will see: at least we have a reason to capture systems now and for the alt problem:now we have tons of alts doing fw missions, soon we will have alts for plexing, i dont see a change here :-)
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
362
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:11:00 -
[52] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:I hope you do commit to actually showing up to flip Nisuwa, Heyd and every other base the Gallente use but I'll believe it when I see it.
Why do you think people will start throwing ships at your blobs? People in null sec aren't even doing that and they have much bigger stakes to fight for.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
362
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:16:00 -
[53] - Quote
Mutnin wrote: ...I had a second thought on the plex war front and even with the Gallentte blobs, I think Caldari can actually control the fight at this point due to how fast systems can be flipped under the current plex mechanics....
They made it take much longer to flip systems.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
132
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:33:00 -
[54] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:I hope you do commit to actually showing up to flip Nisuwa, Heyd and every other base the Gallente use but I'll believe it when I see it.
Why do you think people will start throwing ships at your blobs? People in null sec aren't even doing that and they have much bigger stakes to fight for.
Read my post again, then maybe again....
Notice the "I'll believe it when I see it" yet? - I don't believe the squids have the... will / ability / leadership / fcs / balls [delete as appropriate] to come and directly challenge the Gallente.
Sure they currently sneak about in cloaky ecm burst stabbed nanofagships capping plexes while most Gallente are out looking for proper fights, but if and when they actually challenge Gallente we'll steamroller them in fights (and plexes if needs be) unless they get some influx of new blood in the form of.... fcs / leadership / will / ability / balls. I for one really hope this happens with these changes as it would spice things up a bit and it well might since FW will maybe appeal to more different people,
Null sec has nothing to do with this, but if you'd ever visited Null you'd know what a blob really is.... FW hasn't had a proper 'blob' since the early days and people crying about blobs really need to get some perspective. |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
106
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:33:00 -
[55] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Mutnin wrote: ...I had a second thought on the plex war front and even with the Gallentte blobs, I think Caldari can actually control the fight at this point due to how fast systems can be flipped under the current plex mechanics....
They made it take much longer to flip systems.
how much longer? Any idea?
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
106
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:Cearain wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:I hope you do commit to actually showing up to flip Nisuwa, Heyd and every other base the Gallente use but I'll believe it when I see it.
Why do you think people will start throwing ships at your blobs? People in null sec aren't even doing that and they have much bigger stakes to fight for. Read my post again, then maybe again.... Notice the "I'll believe it when I see it" yet? - I don't believe the squids have the... will / ability / leadership / fcs / balls [delete as appropriate] to come and directly challenge the Gallente. Sure they currently sneak about in cloaky ecm burst stabbed nanofagships capping plexes while most Gallente are out looking for proper fights, but if and when they actually challenge Gallente we'll steamroller them in fights (and plexes if needs be) unless they get some influx of new blood in the form of.... fcs / leadership / will / ability / balls. I for one really hope this happens with these changes as it would spice things up a bit and it well might since FW will maybe appeal to more different people, Null sec has nothing to do with this, but if you'd ever visited Null you'd know what a blob really is.... FW hasn't had a proper 'blob' since the early days and people crying about blobs really need to get some perspective.
Oh yeah ... please more old bullshit ....
we like u victor "the great blob" abyss ....
balls and brain are two organ which has to work together .... If i get outnumbered 3 to 1 with same or worse quality level .... even the mighty galente are not fighting btw.
actually yesterday ur boys run imediately i pull out 5 drakes and warped them on good spot (nice 15 man cruiser hac falcon fleet bailed). Since we were in frigs and cruisers lot of chestbeating was around.
btw it is war ... so yeah i will flip system under ur but in a moment u will be offline and u will do the same. Diference is I will not mock it into some "honor" bullshit. IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
62
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:45:00 -
[57] - Quote
I think the docking denial is a good idea since it adds some consequences for not defending a place. I am pretty sure I will regret this once my own station is taken and I am affected, but it definatelly will motivate me and others to avoid or resolve this issue once happened. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
362
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:47:00 -
[58] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:Cearain wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:I hope you do commit to actually showing up to flip Nisuwa, Heyd and every other base the Gallente use but I'll believe it when I see it.
Why do you think people will start throwing ships at your blobs? People in null sec aren't even doing that and they have much bigger stakes to fight for. Read my post again, then maybe again.... Notice the "I'll believe it when I see it" yet? - I don't believe the squids have the... will / ability / leadership / fcs / balls [delete as appropriate] to come and directly challenge the Gallente..
You forgot "numbers" in the list of things caldari lacks. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
106
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:48:00 -
[59] - Quote
Meditril wrote:I think the docking denial is a good idea since it adds some consequences for not defending a place. I am pretty sure I will regret this once my own station is taken and I am affected, but it definatelly will motivate me and others to avoid or resolve this issue once happened.
well my point is that they should introduce it all together with other features .... and properly tested .... otherwise they will make low sec null wasteland ....
BTW is anybody here who remembers lowsec before fw .... that was bad ... very very bad .... so now imagine it again IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
106
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:50:00 -
[60] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:Cearain wrote:Vyktor Abyss wrote:I hope you do commit to actually showing up to flip Nisuwa, Heyd and every other base the Gallente use but I'll believe it when I see it.
Why do you think people will start throwing ships at your blobs? People in null sec aren't even doing that and they have much bigger stakes to fight for. Read my post again, then maybe again.... Notice the "I'll believe it when I see it" yet? - I don't believe the squids have the... will / ability / leadership / fcs / balls [delete as appropriate] to come and directly challenge the Gallente.. You forgot "numbers" in the list of things caldari lacks.
It is not about the size of the dog in the fight, It is about the size of the fight in the dog .....
.... we lack numbers we compensate it by sneaky techniques .... ECM bursts etc. ... funny how he is buthurt they did not catch my SBing, stabbed, cloaky, ECM burst scorpion ..... ;) IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
362
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:51:00 -
[61] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Cearain wrote:Mutnin wrote: ...I had a second thought on the plex war front and even with the Gallentte blobs, I think Caldari can actually control the fight at this point due to how fast systems can be flipped under the current plex mechanics....
They made it take much longer to flip systems. how much longer? Any idea?
A factor of 5:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1237047#post1237047 Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
62
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:52:00 -
[62] - Quote
At the end it will be all a question of balance. So basically what CCP has to set up is that a station in an almost empty system which is nearly no population is fast to conquer... e.g. by 3 to 6 hours of continuose attack. However, a station in core systems like Auga for example should take much more time to conquer if no defence arrives. At least 48 or more hours. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
183
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:13:00 -
[63] - Quote
Meditril wrote:At the end it will be all a question of balance. So basically what CCP has to set up is that a station in an almost empty system which is nearly no population is fast to conquer... e.g. by 3 to 6 hours of continuose attack. However, a station in core systems like Auga for example should take much more time to conquer if no defence arrives. At least 48 or more hours. I think the minimum feasible time to take a system is now 8*5 = 40 hours. Only the extremely dedicated will be able to capture a system. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
69
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:26:00 -
[64] - Quote
Ok - 40 hours changes everything. That is going to make a big difference. Sounds promising.
I wish I had time to load and play on the test server. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
69
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:28:00 -
[65] - Quote
Quoting Sync Vir:
Quote:Datacores are 1000LP + 1m isk for 5
Amarr LP Store has
Amarrian Starship Engineering, Graviton Physics, Lazor Phyics, Nanite Engineering, High Energy Phyics
Also I got 25K lp from a Major solo. Ihub grade status unknown but likely empty.
125K LP + 125m = 625 Datacores.
High Energy Phyics = 298k each x 625 = 186.215m - 125 = 61m profit Nanite Engineering = 334k each x 625 = 208.75 = 125 = 83m profit. Amarrian Starship Engineering = 299k x 625 = 186.8 =125 = 61.8m Profit Lazor Phyics = 224k x 625 = 140m - 125 = 15m Profit Graviton Physics = 198k x 625 = 123 - 125 = -1.25m loss.
Not sure thats a super good return for your LP. So either no ones gonna use it or Datacores are about to become alot more expensive. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:35:00 -
[66] - Quote
OK so now that we know it will take 40 hours to cap a system instead of the 8 there should be no problem now with station lockout. It gives every TZ an opportunity "to do their duty" of protecting the system.
Again what I like the most about these changes is the concentration of forces in a "home based" system.
I dont think these changes, change FW into 0.0 I think they force FW to be FW . LIke I said its feast together or die together, just as it should. A marine in one division and a marine in another division are still in the same marines.
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Degnar Oskold
Almost Epic
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:53:00 -
[67] - Quote
These changes finally create a use for the Augoror.
My alt can fly most of the ships that my main can, but can't use the mods. So getting a ship out to fight in a contested system means.
1) Main goes to safespot in capsule, contracts ship to neutral alt 2) Alt flies the ship to the safespot, main gets in it 3) Alt comes back in an augoror to feed cap to the main while all offline modules are onlined.
The only downside is losing insurance coverage, but that doens't really matter on T2 ships. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
69
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:00:00 -
[68] - Quote
It also seems faction ships now cost MORE LP. So although the rewards go up, so do the costs.
It seems to need tweaking right now though. A geddon navy issue costs more than an Mac apparantly. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Defiant Legacy
62
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:10:00 -
[69] - Quote
Can anyone tell me if LP and Tag prices for faction modules are changed too? Currently it is simply not worth to create most of the faction modules because they are much more expensive than their dead space counterparts. Is this fixed? |
Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:27:00 -
[70] - Quote
I have always supported the concept of a lock-out feature and am interested to see that it may be implemented. However, I consider that the currently proposed mechanism is flawed, effectively penalising players for joining a militia corp. Consider that pirates in Amamake would have free access to all stations whereas TLF pilots would be completely excluded should the system ever become occupied by the Amarrian forces (extreme unlikely example I know but you get the point)
My vision of the feature has always been linked to personal/corporation standings to the station's corporation or faction.
Implementing it by standings would affect all players across all NPC space.
Hisec would operate on a NRDS basis: STANDING: EFFECT Excellent/Good: Free Access Neutral: Free Access Bad/Terrible: Lock Out
And losec on a NBSI basis: STANDING: EFFECT Excellent/Good: Free Access Neutral: Lock Out Bad/Terrible: Lock Out
NB: If you are at war with a faction, by joining an opposing militia, then you should be treated as having Bad/Terrible standings until you leave the opposing militia. Similar to the mechanism for the Faction Navies in NPC hisec.
This would prepare players for nullsec station mechanics without being too restrictive, as getting standings with NPC corporations is relatively simple.
I reiterate that this feature should be on a station by station basis, not on a system by system basis. So an Amarrian crusader (spit!) could still dock in Amarrian stations in Minmatar losec, or even hisec, that they have good standings with.
Taking this a step further would see the expulsion of faction aligned stations from an opposing faction's hisec, perhaps extending this to losec too.
Finally, militia stations would become conquerable stations, like exist in NPC nullsec but only conquerable by the opposing faction and only when the system is vulnerable or occupied by the opposing faction.
|
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Fleet Warpsujarento
State Protectorate Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:32:00 -
[71] - Quote
Increasing the time to take a system could actually make the changes even worse than they were before because it limits the effect that a single person can have on the warzone, or their little part of it. Punishing and rewarding the militia as a whole for their successes and failures is already going to make any individual's actions feel futile, and the time increase will only make that feeling worse.
Even now, when it takes half a day to conquer a system, there is a feeling among some of the most dedicated plexers that much of what they're doing is futile. What's the point of pushing a system for four hours during EU primetime when you know that the US primetime of your own militia won't be there to finish the job? Now you have to rely on other (mostly apathetic) people for several days.
Got my ships locked in a station? Now it'll take five times as long to get them back. Maybe won't bother spending a a week grinding. I'll just quit FW and go on as before. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:34:00 -
[72] - Quote
Kade Jeekin wrote:I have always supported the concept of a lock-out feature and am interested to see that it may be implemented. However, I consider that the currently proposed mechanism is flawed, effectively penalising players for joining a militia corp. Consider that pirates in Amamake would have free access to all stations whereas TLF pilots would be completely excluded should the system ever become occupied by the Amarrian forces (extreme unlikely example I know but you get the point)
My vision of the feature has always been linked to personal/corporation standings to the station's corporation or faction.
Implementing it by standings would affect all players across all NPC space.
Hisec would operate on a NRDS basis: STANDING: EFFECT Excellent/Good: Free Access Neutral: Free Access Bad/Terrible: Lock Out
And losec on a NBSI basis: STANDING: EFFECT Excellent/Good: Free Access Neutral: Lock Out Bad/Terrible: Lock Out
NB: If you are at war with a faction, by joining an opposing militia, then you should be treated as having Bad/Terrible standings until you leave the opposing militia. Similar to the mechanism for the Faction Navies in NPC hisec.
This would prepare players for nullsec station mechanics without being too restrictive, as getting standings with NPC corporations is relatively simple.
I reiterate that this feature should be on a station by station basis, not on a system by system basis. So an Amarrian crusader (spit!) could still dock in Amarrian stations in Minmatar losec, or even hisec, that they have good standings with.
Taking this a step further would see the expulsion of faction aligned stations from an opposing faction's hisec, perhaps extending this to losec too.
Finally, militia stations would become conquerable stations, like exist in NPC nullsec but only conquerable by the opposing faction and only when the system is vulnerable or occupied by the opposing faction.
FW/LS does nto have to be a training ground for 00. I simply like the station mechanics for it making FW pilots to work closer together. FW does have the small splinter groups (a lot actually) but being able to come together to achieve a certain goal at a certain time is much much better then being ruled by some money hungry alliance leaders
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
363
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:40:00 -
[73] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote: Increasing the time to take a system could actually make the changes even worse than they were before because it limits the effect that a single person can have on the warzone, or their little part of it. Punishing and rewarding the militia as a whole for their successes and failures is already going to make any individual's actions feel futile, and the time increase will only make that feeling worse.
Even now, when it takes half a day to conquer a system, there is a feeling among some of the most dedicated plexers that much of what they're doing is futile. What's the point of pushing a system for four hours during EU primetime when you know that the US primetime of your own militia won't be there to finish the job? Now you have to rely on other (mostly apathetic) people for several days.
Got my ships locked in a station? Now it'll take five times as long to get them back. Maybe won't bother spending a a week grinding. I'll just quit FW and go on as before.
I couldn't agree more.
What ccp is doing is called piling error on top of error. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
184
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:42:00 -
[74] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:OK so now that we know it will take 40 hours to cap a system instead of the 8 there should be no problem now with station lockout. It gives every TZ an opportunity "to do their duty" of protecting the system.
Again what I like the most about these changes is the concentration of forces in a "home based" system.
I dont think these changes, change FW into 0.0 I think they force FW to be FW . LIke I said its feast together or die together, just as it should. A marine in one division and a marine in another division are still in the same marines.
LOL, problem solved. Nobody but an extremely few number of diehards is going to spend that amount of time to flip a system. We're back to pre-December plex warfare.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:06:00 -
[75] - Quote
Raw Lock-out remains a **** poor idea even with the slower occupancy flips. The removal of all services in hostile station accomplishes the same but cuts down on the drop/join corp and alt juggling that will ensue.
Now if they wanted to really make it fancy, then access would be determined by VP in pool so that system tug-o-war scenarios could play themselves out .. at ~50/50 both sides have access to everything but as pool starts tilting towards one the opposition gradually loses access with docking being the last to go. That way an offensive into 'virgin' territory requires a minimum of say 15% VP for docking to be enabled, reinfrocing the offensive and driving casualties skywards.
But they probably don't have a data-base tick box that says "fancy solution" so guess it will remain a wet dream
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:Got my ships locked in a station? Now it'll take five times as long to get them back. Maybe won't bother spending a a week grinding. I'll just quit FW and go on as before. Why quit when we can probably still ninja-cap plexes at will thus making tons of money at zero risk .. less risk than bomber missions even! Sure, they claim to want to sort out the NPCs but I'll believe that when I see it so free ISK and farmers in stabbed frigs galore!
By the by (Q. for you SiSi'es), what have they multiplied the LP-for-Kills with? How exploitable is it going to be? |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:08:00 -
[76] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:OK so now that we know it will take 40 hours to cap a system instead of the 8 there should be no problem now with station lockout. It gives every TZ an opportunity "to do their duty" of protecting the system.
Again what I like the most about these changes is the concentration of forces in a "home based" system.
I dont think these changes, change FW into 0.0 I think they force FW to be FW . LIke I said its feast together or die together, just as it should. A marine in one division and a marine in another division are still in the same marines.
LOL, problem solved. Nobody but an extremely few number of diehards is going to spend that amount of time to flip a system. We're back to pre-December plex warfare.
Wait let me get this right
1) CCP gives LP now for plexing 2) CCP give LP for faction kills 3)CCP gives bonuses for conquering systems 4) CCP rewards you for putting effort into something
And this is pre-december again? I udnerstand some may not like the changes but lets get real
CCP did this you participate = you get rewarded
you plex= you get rewarded
plex fights = kills = lp = winning plex = more lp
plex fights = more kills = more lp = winning plex = flipping system = more rewards
I fail to see the problem here?
They have incentivized people to plex from the very new (minors) to the veteran (majors) creating a reason to fiight and then giving you a cookie to do it.
Sounds good to me.
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
243
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:20:00 -
[77] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote: Increasing the time to take a system could actually make the changes even worse than they were before because it limits the effect that a single person can have on the warzone, or their little part of it. Punishing and rewarding the militia as a whole for their successes and failures is already going to make any individual's actions feel futile, and the time increase will only make that feeling worse.
Even now, when it takes half a day to conquer a system, there is a feeling among some of the most dedicated plexers that much of what they're doing is futile. What's the point of pushing a system for four hours during EU primetime when you know that the US primetime of your own militia won't be there to finish the job? Now you have to rely on other (mostly apathetic) people for several days.
Got my ships locked in a station? Now it'll take five times as long to get them back. Maybe won't bother spending a a week grinding. I'll just quit FW and go on as before.
Agreed. For some people, it will take a few days to move all their ships to a new system. Not everyone can do it in one night. So instead of fighting, we spend more time on logistics for a few days. Not the ideal way to spend your gaming time.
And to people who say train an alt. Alot of us don't want to spend months training an alt to fly all the various ships our main can fly. I feel sorry for people who can fly practically every ship.
It's all fine and dandy to tell people to HTFU but if half the people don't want to or end up leaving, you won't have a militia to fight along with. So it's a lose-lose situation for everybody. PVP is only as fun as the people you fight along with and against with. Always smiling :) Gallente Militia -áPVP Corp. Selective recruitment open. http://iamsheriff.com/eagle.html |
Fleet Warpsujarento
State Protectorate Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:24:00 -
[78] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:Got my ships locked in a station? Now it'll take five times as long to get them back. Maybe won't bother spending a a week grinding. I'll just quit FW and go on as before. Why quit when we can probably still ninja-cap plexes at will thus making tons of money at zero risk .. less risk than bomber missions even! Sure, they claim to want to sort out the NPCs but I'll believe that when I see it so free ISK and farmers in stabbed frigs galore!
Alts m'dear. Alts. |
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:36:00 -
[79] - Quote
Quote:3. Militia store LP prices are affected by faction wide performance (discounts in increments of 10%)
anyone knows if this is based on the number of systems hold (a) or if it is percentage based (b)?
edit:
- amarr hold 30 systems by default and LP modifier is 1.0 - amarr capures 15 system: a) LP modifier is now 1.0+"some number" x 15 b) LP modifier is now 1.5 |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2292
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:38:00 -
[80] - Quote
Thanks Hrett, for pointing me over here. This is a much better place for ongoing discussion if its going to wander away from what should be strict SiSi feedback in the CCP-posted thread.
Since I've just discovered it here, I'll read through and get back to some of your questions to the best of my ability, thanks for your patience everyone.. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
696
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:42:00 -
[81] - Quote
+1 for docking rights. If you want to dock, take the system. Its just common sense that militia stations can have the right to refuce docking to the enemy faction.
moving fights away from docking timers and timers in general is always a good thing IMO.
also looking forward to the other mentioned features a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2293
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:51:00 -
[82] - Quote
Cearain wrote: I predict the pve will give you mad amounts of lp. I intend to give it a fair shake, but it looks like the best bet will be to put your pvp characters in a neutral corp and have your pve alts in fw.
I have seen absolutely zero changes that directly buff PvE or mission running. As far as I know, every single one of the increases has been on the PvP side of the equation.
As it stands, Faction Warfare pilots will enjoy more monetary rewards for their pew pew than any other career PvP'er in the game, unless your massive alliance has tech moons and replaces all your ships 100%. Even pirates won't be profiting as much from killing other players as Faction Warfare pilots will. The idea that there is no incentive to be a PvP-er in FW vs a neutral PvP-er is just plain silly.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2293
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:59:00 -
[83] - Quote
Mechael wrote:Faster system flipping sounds like it would be in order here.
The enemy not letting you dock in their stations makes sense. Hell, enemy sentry guns shooting you when you get close makes sense. Having to gather together gigantor blobs to duke it out before anything meaningful happens does not make sense.
Faster system flipping and/or a more dynamic "contested" period is definitely what is in order here.
One of the top complaints about the coming changes has been that players HATE the idea of working towards rewards / consequences that will be taken away overnight.
The faster systems are flipped, the more meaningless any system-based consequences or rewards become. I told CCP straight up that I had ZERO intention of putting my hard-earned LP towards upgrading a system if I had not even the slightest guarantee that I could still enjoy the reward when I woke up the next morning. I'd much prefer just to buy ships with it instead.
But if I knew it took a few days to flip a system, and a coordinated effort could be mounted where I could rely on the allies that I trust to pick up the defense where I left off ? Sure, that's worth investing in.
The Faction Warfare community has begged for consequence and reward for years now. It's arrived. Why in the world would we want to water it down and render it meaningless before anyone's even had a chance to enjoy it first?
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2293
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:07:00 -
[84] - Quote
Meditril wrote:Can anyone tell me if LP and Tag prices for faction modules are changed too? Currently it is simply not worth to create most of the faction modules because they are much more expensive than their dead space counterparts. Is this fixed?
If you watch the Fan Fest presentation, you'll notice the plan is to put LP store prices on a sliding scale based on Factional success. I don't know exactly the state of this scale on SiSi without more documentation from CCP, or if that's even what's causing the price change, but thats the likely culprit. If its based on Victory points and none have been accumulated on the test server, pilots might not be able to see how low the prices can actually go quite yet. This is all speculation though, I can't say for sure until its been tested and confirmed, or CCP comes out and says so. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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MinutemanKirk
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:08:00 -
[85] - Quote
First let me start by saying that I am for many of the changes CCP has proposed. I certainly want purpose and reward for killing enemies and plexing and I certainly think it's high time that FW got benefits and perks in the form of things other than navy ships.
The big issue that I have from this isn't the station locks, new capture mechanics or anything that is directly tied to FW (even if I disagree with some of them), my issue is with neutrals in FW zones.
CCP RubberBAND wrote: Without going into exhaustive detail: 1. Cannot dock in stations that are in systems controlled by an enemy - Ninja Edit: This does not affect neutrals
2. There are 5 levels of discounts for a number of different things - if you own the system and have upgraded it - Medical clone discounts (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50% discount) - Number of assembly lines increases by 1 for every level - All broker fees discounted (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50%) - NOTE: You only get these discounts in the FW system - ADDENDUM: These discounts apply to neutrals not in FW
Neutrals receive all the benefits of system upgrade (at least the ones that have been announced) without having to put any LP into it, worrying about losing station access or even fighting over plexes. Think about that. In 0.0 you can't use station services unless the owner (who has to fight, pay, and risk in order to actually own it) allows you. In other words, to prevent exactly what neutrals will be able to in FW space. How is it fair (or as CCP calls "balanced) gameplay that the non-FW enemies I shoot get to reap all the benefits of my hard work to take and upgrade my system ESPECIALLY when we have to use our hard earned LP (and hence possible isk) to upgrade it?
CCP has been promising to buff low sec. I was all for it, until I saw this and realized that at least part of that would be accomplished at FW's expense. Some will say it's better to have more enemies, but as has been proven, there are multiple alliances that live in low that own tech moons that don't NEED those benefits and can AFFORD the time and isk to lose lots of ships playing station games or camping plexes or missions.
I just can't see see how CCP could conceive that it would be alright for non-FW entities to interfere with our FW fights and affairs and still get to eat the cake that we baked. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2293
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:26:00 -
[86] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote: It is not about the size of the dog in the fight, It is about the size of the fight in the dog .....
.... we lack numbers we compensate it by sneaky techniques .... ECM bursts etc. ... funny how he is buthurt they did not catch my SBing, stabbed, cloaky, ECM burst scorpion ..... ;)
A thousand times this. ^^
I've seen a lot of aspects to the package of FW iterations that directly discourage blob warfare. I'm excited for all of the details to be released, including the stuff not yet on SiSi, along with the explanations coming in the dev blog next week. At that point I can put a whole lot of this into its proper context.
But overall, I think the set of changes will favor the faction who is willing to cooperate more than the other, and who is willing to put in the most effort. That doesnt have anything to do with size. I think an underdog faction with a higher degree of coordination, especially across time zones, will be able to make inroads against a larger yet disorganized foe. So much of how this war turns out will depend on pilot tenacity and pilot attitude, not on sheer numbers.
Its refreshing to see so many pilots coming up with a dozen different ways to adapt and survive in the new system, even against the odds, and it really contrasts with those that say "What?? inconvenience?? **** that, I'm outta here."
No one complains that you can't fly with impunity in enemy high sec, no one complains that you have to spend time repping a POS after an enemy strike, no one complains that sometimes ships get camped in and you have to use alts to move things. These are not horrific tragedies, they are part of the consequences that make EVE the *challenging* game that it is.
Like I've said a thousand times before, this isn't the consequence I would have picked, but I think we've taken measures to make it a reasonable one in the overall context of the new system.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:34:00 -
[87] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:If you watch the Fan Fest presentation, you'll notice the plan is to put LP store prices on a sliding scale based on Factional success.... Will probably be based on systems held as that is the single most 'unfair' method from an Amarr PoV (less systems, bottlenecks everywhere in minnie space etc.)
"Blob the crap out of the enemy for a fortnight and get 50% off in LP store. better missions rewards, cheaper everything and more stuff in general! .." Null is FUBAR .. come Summer, FW is FUBAR
Has CCP given any indication as to how they plan on avoiding the inevitable snowball from starting up where one or two militias take over everything .. the datacore crap won't work as one gets LP for everything so even with no space held one can ninja-plex more than enough to feed the market.
PS: CCP, revise the Amarr/Matar theatre damnit .. you did geography magic at launch for Caldari, now finish what you started! |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
364
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:46:00 -
[88] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: I predict the pve will give you mad amounts of lp. I intend to give it a fair shake, but it looks like the best bet will be to put your pvp characters in a neutral corp and have your pve alts in fw.
I have seen absolutely zero changes that directly buff PvE or mission running. As far as I know, every single one of the increases has been on the PvP side of the equation. As it stands, Faction Warfare pilots will enjoy more monetary rewards for their pew pew than any other career PvP'er in the game, unless your massive alliance has tech moons and replaces all your ships 100%. Even pirates won't be profiting as much from killing other players as Faction Warfare pilots will. The idea that there is no incentive to be a PvP-er in FW vs a neutral PvP-er is just plain silly.
You assume that plexing is mainly a pvp activity? Has something changed to make that the case?
The only difference I see is offensive plexing fleets will likely want to fit cloaks to their ships so they can get past gangs with teh mwd cloak trick and also "dock" cloaked in a safe spot. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
364
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:55:00 -
[89] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Mechael wrote:Faster system flipping sounds like it would be in order here.
The enemy not letting you dock in their stations makes sense. Hell, enemy sentry guns shooting you when you get close makes sense. Having to gather together gigantor blobs to duke it out before anything meaningful happens does not make sense.
Faster system flipping and/or a more dynamic "contested" period is definitely what is in order here. One of the top complaints about the coming changes has been that players HATE the idea of working towards rewards / consequences that will be taken away overnight. The faster systems are flipped, the more meaningless any system-based consequences or rewards become. I told CCP straight up that I had ZERO intention of putting my hard-earned LP towards upgrading a system if I had not even the slightest guarantee that I could still enjoy the reward when I woke up the next morning. I'd much prefer just to buy ships with it instead. But if I knew it took a few days to flip a system, and a coordinated effort could be mounted where I could rely on the allies that I trust to pick up the defense where I left off ? Sure, that's worth investing in. The Faction Warfare community has begged for consequence and reward for years now. It's arrived. Why in the world would we want to water it down and render it meaningless before anyone's even had a chance to enjoy it first?
What you describe is null sec sov warfare in nutshell. It can be fun and many people like it, but why make fw the same as that?
Why the big consequences no docking and long timers so all the blobs can assemble? Why make it so no small gang can do anything substantial in a short time before a blob forms to clear them out?
Seriously if you want big rewards for big effort why don't you go to null sec?
If my militia doesn't react to threats when i am gone so be it - just don't make the consequences that big. Very few in faction war want to have a second job protecting big rewards. yes some consequences. But for the big consequences following big efforts there is null sec. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Phoenix IV
Somebody Else's Problem
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:07:00 -
[90] - Quote
Meditril wrote:Can anyone tell me if LP and Tag prices for faction modules are changed too? Currently it is simply not worth to create most of the faction modules because they are much more expensive than their dead space counterparts. Is this fixed?
Currently everything requires 4 times more lp on sisi than on tq. For example 600k lp for a navy domi instead of 150k. |
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
364
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:12:00 -
[91] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Hidden Snake wrote: It is not about the size of the dog in the fight, It is about the size of the fight in the dog .....
.... we lack numbers we compensate it by sneaky techniques .... ECM bursts etc. ... funny how he is buthurt they did not catch my SBing, stabbed, cloaky, ECM burst scorpion ..... ;) A thousand times this. ^^
I believe you. The minmatar will surely take a thousand fights when they drastically outnumber their enemy.
But seriously whats with this "yay big effort big rewards" null sec talk?
What happened to the hans that ran a campaign on low sec as a fight club with frequent small scale pvp?
How are longer times where the larger side is never in a rush to protect anything and can always wait for their blob to form going to promote that? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
597
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:26:00 -
[92] - Quote
This is stupid, this is like complaining in guildwars WvW, you can't walk into your enemy's keep to respawn after you die.
you think it's fair? that if you die in battle you can just dock up in your enemy's homeland, buy weapons of death, and therm just undock ready for battle again? You have to take the system, in order to have access to it.
Right now it's so stupid, you can just hide in enemy space, or you can set up a forward depot of a ton of premade ships. This lead back in the day to battles where one person would be in station fiting out ships as fast as they could, then as FW players died in the corp they would dock up, get a new ship, and undock, so dumb, it's not a game. The changes will not be fun, they will make the game harder. There will still be work arounds. Making eve harder might seem crazy to you new guys, but eve is suppose to be hard, you'll find a way to deal! : ) |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
170
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:26:00 -
[93] - Quote
Cearain wrote:What happened to the hans that ran a campaign on low sec as a fight club with frequent small scale pvp?
How are longer timers where the larger side is never in a rush to protect anything and can always wait for their blob to form going to promote that?
Went the same direction is "change we can believe in" ?
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BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:27:00 -
[94] - Quote
Damar Rocarion wrote:Cearain wrote:What happened to the hans that ran a campaign on low sec as a fight club with frequent small scale pvp?
How are longer timers where the larger side is never in a rush to protect anything and can always wait for their blob to form going to promote that? Went the same direction is "change we can believe in" ?
OMG LOLOLOL the first time Damaar said something I can immediately say hahahaha Im on board with that Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Fleet Warpsujarento
State Protectorate Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:29:00 -
[95] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:This is stupid, this is like complaining in guildwars WvW, you can't walk into your enemy's keep to respawn after you die.
you think it's fair? that if you die in battle you can just dock up in your enemy's homeland, buy weapons of death, and therm just undock ready for battle again? You have to take the system, in order to have access to it.
Right now it's so stupid, you can just hide in enemy space, or you can set up a forward depot of a ton of premade ships. This lead back in the day to battles where one person would be in station fiting out ships as fast as they could, then as FW players died in the corp they would dock up, get a new ship, and undock, so dumb, it's not a game. The changes will not be fun, they will make the game harder. There will still be work arounds. Making eve harder might seem crazy to you new guys, but eve is suppose to be hard, you'll find a way to deal! : )
You're right that there are workarounds. The most obvious of them is to leave FW. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
597
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:42:00 -
[96] - Quote
Also guys think about it. Everyone left FW, ti's dead. it's current members *me included i only left yesterday to get into a new corp after finals week*
all current member are only 20% of the orginal numbers. I myself have just been farming firetails and making billions of isk. No one has been playing Factional warfare, I think a lot of people just don't want to lose their free ride, and all you see here on the forum are those 1000 players who have been using FW missions to make a ton of money.
Docking up in enemy space is a very real tactic to avoid losing your ship while grind up the LP and making more money than I think most people understand you can make.
If you play FW missions for 8 hours I will have enough for a plex. So I could play eve for only 8 hours a month, and I can keep my free sub to eve online. I however knew the free ride was going to end. So yes ccp is going to get a lot of push back, but I hope they stay strong and don't care about this tiny dead features playerbase, who are mostly mission runners.
Sorry guys but the glory days of FW died a long time ago. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
364
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:51:00 -
[97] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:This is stupid, this is like complaining in guildwars WvW, you can't walk into your enemy's keep to respawn after you die.
you think it's fair? that if you die in battle you can just dock up in your enemy's homeland, buy weapons of death, and therm just undock ready for battle again? You have to take the system, in order to have access to it.
Right now it's so stupid, you can just hide in enemy space, or you can set up a forward depot of a ton of premade ships. This lead back in the day to battles where one person would be in station fiting out ships as fast as they could, then as FW players died in the corp they would dock up, get a new ship, and undock, so dumb, it's not a game. The changes will not be fun, they will make the game harder. There will still be work arounds. Making eve harder might seem crazy to you new guys, but eve is suppose to be hard, you'll find a way to deal! : )
Seriously would you stop with rp reasons.
Why would the 24th imperial crusade not allow its own members to dock in its station?
The stations are often owned by private third parties not the factions. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:05:00 -
[98] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:..I however knew the free ride was going to end... So any idea when that will happen? Sure as hell isn't with this grand FW fix round .. "winners" can chain missions same as now and reap even higher payouts thanks to discounts based on militia performance while losers can chain plexes in ass-end systems (aka. ninja-plexing) and pull roughly half of what is currently possible going full mission whoring (assuming average mission is 5-10minutes incl. transit).
Free ride is alive and well and with neutrals benefiting from "our" work the worst case scenario is FW becoming a massive farm fest .. upside of course is that there is a good chance of this system creating some pit-stop systems manufacturing wise so that the denizens of bore-sec won't have to Titan bridge quite so far for their quafe
On the whole the changes are as poorly thought out as almost all the other 'fixes' we have been graced with over the years combined
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Ramon Sohei
URSALIS LOGISTICS GROUP Villore Accords
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:05:00 -
[99] - Quote
Quote: 1. Cannot dock in stations that are in systems controlled by an enemy - Example: Minmatar cannot dock in stations in a FW system controlled by the Amarr/Caldari - You also cannot use station services if you docked before system flipped - Ninja Edit: This does not affect neutrals
"FW System" meaning this affects only lowsec? In other words, you can have militias docking on enemy hisec? If so, that sounds like a loophole already in the design. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
186
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:12:00 -
[100] - Quote
Post with your main because you alt has no credibility.
|
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BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:18:00 -
[101] - Quote
Ramon Sohei wrote:Quote: 1. Cannot dock in stations that are in systems controlled by an enemy - Example: Minmatar cannot dock in stations in a FW system controlled by the Amarr/Caldari - You also cannot use station services if you docked before system flipped - Ninja Edit: This does not affect neutrals
"FW System" meaning this affects only lowsec? In other words, you can have militias docking on enemy hisec? If so, that sounds like a loophole already in the design.
I agree HS docking should be removed in its entirety to the opposing miltiia. Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:24:00 -
[102] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: Post with your main because you alt has no credibility.
This is his main, I think. He was with Huang Yinglong- a Minmatar RP corp. He's an LOL RPer hence his desire to be fully immersed in the spaceship world. RP > RL Always smiling :) Gallente Militia -áPVP Corp. Selective recruitment open. http://iamsheriff.com/eagle.html |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
186
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:28:00 -
[103] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:X Gallentius wrote: Post with your main because you alt has no credibility. This is his main, I think. He was with Huang Yinglong- a Minmatar RP corp. He's an LOL RPer hence his desire to be fully immersed in the spaceship world. RP > RL That's terrible. Some guy who has made billions off of FW selling firetails and has not fought once in how many years? Does anybody here really think this dude is gonna get out there and fight after this patch? In the words of Damar Rocarion, MotherMoon is BLOCKED. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
171
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:44:00 -
[104] - Quote
Ramon Sohei wrote:Quote: 1. Cannot dock in stations that are in systems controlled by an enemy - Example: Minmatar cannot dock in stations in a FW system controlled by the Amarr/Caldari - You also cannot use station services if you docked before system flipped - Ninja Edit: This does not affect neutrals
"FW System" meaning this affects only lowsec? In other words, you can have militias docking on enemy hisec? If so, that sounds like a loophole already in the design.
I've already tested this.. Yes you can still dock in any station out side of FW space. Example, while I couldn't dock in Ostingele I could dock in Pelille which is right next to Ost.
This is why I mentioned early on in this topic, that even if Caldari loses all our low sec station systems we can still fight all around the map with out much issues. On other hand if Gals lose all their station systems they will have much harder time trying to live any where near Black Rise.
Also to those that haven't noticed all the LP costs in the FW store have gone back to "normal" cost for ships. FW stores seems to no longer get the FW discount with BS's at 150k LP but now are 600K LP for a Scorp Navy Issue & Navy Ravens were 1 million LP..
Meanwhile over at the State War station, Navy Ravens were still 600k. Meaning the selling of faction BS hulls will go back into the hands of neutral running LVL 5's. Sure is great benifit to fight for your Militia when some carebear can get the same ship for 400k less LP.. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
186
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:49:00 -
[105] - Quote
What made the current plexing mechanic better was that you could flip a system in a reasonable amount of time. This gave hope to casual players that they could really help flipping a system.
However, in the name of protecting players from getting locked out of their stations without warning (the same excuse for horrible sov mechanics in 0.0 btw), the great thing about the current plexing mechanic is being removed.
That's the challenge in a nutshell.
Don't worry, we'll adapt to a more boring playstyle since none of the casual players will be willing to invest 100's of hours of their time to flip a single system. Val Erian and his alts will do the dirty work on our side. Damar will do the dirty work on his side, and when a system gets close to flipping we'll all pile in for the fights. In the meantime we'll all go kill something else. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
640
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:58:00 -
[106] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:X Gallentius wrote: Post with your main because you alt has no credibility. This is his main, I think. He was with Huang Yinglong- a Minmatar RP corp. He's an LOL RPer hence his desire to be fully immersed in the spaceship world. RP > RL
X Gallentius wrote:That's terrible. Some guy who has made billions off of FW selling firetails and has not fought once in how many years? Does anybody here really think this dude is gonna get out there and fight after this patch? In the words of Damar Rocarion, MotherMoon is BLOCKED. I vaguely recall MM. Don't let him/her/it(?) give you the wrong impression of the rest of Huang Yinglong. lolRPers they may be, but they are among some of the best Minmitar fighters out there.
Anyways... we're getting sidetracked here.
The simple fact of the matter is... these new mechanics are deeply flawed, have numerous loop holes, encourage people to use said loopholes, and take away from the "roving packs of dogs" mentality that many of us in FW cherish (and revel in). I said it before and I'll say it again; I didn't join Faction Warfare to play "0.0 lite." I joined Faction Warfare to get kills... preferably while drunk... without having to deal with the hassle and drama of organizing people who generally don't want to work together in the first place (the term "herding cats" comes to mind).
People say FW as it is has no goal or objective... I disagree. For me, it's all about casually killing people who live right next door to you and then shouting at each other like a bunch of hairless prepubescent boys while chest beating. It's one of the last places in EVE where egos can form, grow, and clash with one another without being bogged down in politics and obligatory operations. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
598
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 20:57:00 -
[107] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:MotherMoon wrote:This is stupid, this is like complaining in guildwars WvW, you can't walk into your enemy's keep to respawn after you die.
you think it's fair? that if you die in battle you can just dock up in your enemy's homeland, buy weapons of death, and therm just undock ready for battle again? You have to take the system, in order to have access to it.
Right now it's so stupid, you can just hide in enemy space, or you can set up a forward depot of a ton of premade ships. This lead back in the day to battles where one person would be in station fiting out ships as fast as they could, then as FW players died in the corp they would dock up, get a new ship, and undock, so dumb, it's not a game. The changes will not be fun, they will make the game harder. There will still be work arounds. Making eve harder might seem crazy to you new guys, but eve is suppose to be hard, you'll find a way to deal! : ) You're right that there are workarounds. The most obvious of them is to leave FW.
Well good then, everyone already did that a year ago
I don't see the problem. Why should CCP cater to the 10% of people who for some reason still think FW is a good system. I mean think about it your trying ton argue that the status quo is better than this new change. Are you mental? NO ONE PLAYS FW. it's finally getting some attention after 3 years of feature abandonment. The people left aren't really even players, they are a random group of players that are about to have thier game they have enjoyed for the past 3 years taken away from them.
And guess what, if everyone playing FW right now left eve or whatever, it wouldn't matter there is only really like 6,000 people at this point. Counting alts and AFK people like I have been for the past 2 years.
If these changes get us back to the old days, when there was 10,000 players per side and pvp was easy to find and fun, then GOOD. don't let the door hit you on the way out, the system you so loyally defend is not fun and was abandoned by the playerbase at large years ago. Stop trying to defend it as an example of good game design. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:00:00 -
[108] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Deen Wispa wrote:X Gallentius wrote: Post with your main because you alt has no credibility. This is his main, I think. He was with Huang Yinglong- a Minmatar RP corp. He's an LOL RPer hence his desire to be fully immersed in the spaceship world. RP > RL X Gallentius wrote:That's terrible. Some guy who has made billions off of FW selling firetails and has not fought once in how many years? Does anybody here really think this dude is gonna get out there and fight after this patch? In the words of Damar Rocarion, MotherMoon is BLOCKED. I vaguely recall MM. Don't let him/her/it(?) give you the wrong impression of the rest of Huang Yinglong. lolRPers they may be, but they are among some of the best Minmitar fighters out there. People say FW as it is has no goal or objective... I disagree. For me, it's all about casually killing people who live right next door to you and then shouting at each other like a bunch of hairless prepubescent boys while chest beating. It's one of the last places in EVE where egos can form, grow, and clash with one another without being bogged down in politics and obligatory operations.
Well I plan to do that still to the opposing force like we do every night. Drama, dude join caldari and meet drama.
There will always be drama, Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
642
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:06:00 -
[109] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:There will always be drama, True... but at least right now I am not forced to deal with (much less work with) people creating said drama in the name of "the greater good." I can remain aloof and just do my own thing til people cool down. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Fleet Warpsujarento
State Protectorate Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:08:00 -
[110] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:MotherMoon wrote:This is stupid, this is like complaining in guildwars WvW, you can't walk into your enemy's keep to respawn after you die.
you think it's fair? that if you die in battle you can just dock up in your enemy's homeland, buy weapons of death, and therm just undock ready for battle again? You have to take the system, in order to have access to it.
Right now it's so stupid, you can just hide in enemy space, or you can set up a forward depot of a ton of premade ships. This lead back in the day to battles where one person would be in station fiting out ships as fast as they could, then as FW players died in the corp they would dock up, get a new ship, and undock, so dumb, it's not a game. The changes will not be fun, they will make the game harder. There will still be work arounds. Making eve harder might seem crazy to you new guys, but eve is suppose to be hard, you'll find a way to deal! : ) You're right that there are workarounds. The most obvious of them is to leave FW. Well good then, everyone already did that a year ago I don't see the problem. Why should CCP cater to the 10% of people who for some reason still think FW is a good system. I mean think about it your trying ton argue that the status quo is better than this new change. Are you mental? NO ONE PLAYS FW. it's finally getting some attention after 3 years of feature abandonment. The people left aren't really even players, they are a random group of players that are about to have thier game they have enjoyed for the past 3 years taken away from them. And guess what, if everyone playing FW right now left eve or whatever, it wouldn't matter there is only really like 6,000 people at this point. Counting alts and AFK people like I have been for the past 2 years. If these changes get us back to the old days, when there was 10,000 players per side and pvp was easy to find and fun, then GOOD. don't let the door hit you on the way out, the system you so loyally defend is not fun and was abandoned by the playerbase at large years ago. Stop trying to defend it as an example of good game design.
Nobody is saying that FW is vital to EVE or that it's currently a success. What we're saying is that these new changes won't help, they will quite possibly make things even worse.
CCP creates an expansion to make FW more popular -> FW becomes less popular -> expansion is a failure.
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Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
70
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:14:00 -
[111] - Quote
Quote:CCP RubberBAND wrote:Good discussion, keep it coming. As CCP Soundwave stated we are actually locked in to continue working on FW after Inferno, so we will be monitoring the short term effects and have some long term plans that we didn't get time to do.
FYI - CCP says they are reading this thread. Lets try to keep it constructive. ;) |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
598
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:21:00 -
[112] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Deen Wispa wrote:X Gallentius wrote: Post with your main because you alt has no credibility. This is his main, I think. He was with Huang Yinglong- a Minmatar RP corp. He's an LOL RPer hence his desire to be fully immersed in the spaceship world. RP > RL X Gallentius wrote:That's terrible. Some guy who has made billions off of FW selling firetails and has not fought once in how many years? Does anybody here really think this dude is gonna get out there and fight after this patch? In the words of Damar Rocarion, MotherMoon is BLOCKED. I vaguely recall MM. Don't let him/her/it(?) give you the wrong impression of the rest of Huang Yinglong. lolRPers they may be, but they are among some of the best Minmitar fighters out there.
Yes, And I used to be one of the best FW fleet commanders on the servers. I quit eve over FW being abandoned. I was one of the bigest people pushing for FW before it's release.
This is my main, and while these changes might not be the magic bullet, you better believe I will get back in FW if CCP actully bring life back into it.
I just couldn't bring myself to log in anymore once no one was playing anymore. Everyone was so active and pumped for the 1st year of FW, as we waited , and waited for some changes. we all asked CCP to add some reason to take over systems, for better rewards.
At some point all that was left was to run FW missions, and hope to get some ok PvP from a passing enemy who is also doing cloaky missions.
I have over 13,000 posts on the eve forums, have helped the original CSMs, created the seemless eveonline desktop background you'll find if you ever try to find the eve video wall papers on eve files.
I helped create the awesome eve offline top down shooter back in the day with tarminic, Back when his post were forced to be pink. I fought in the alliance tournament.
I've quit huang to join eve university. And promote our rp corp through eve university to new players, teach them th ropes and send them off to our corp. Because honestly I'm a busy busy busy person in real life. I work as a 3d environment artist on major titles you've most likely at some point had your hands on. If you've ever been to or sent a kid to IDtech camp in the states, you've been effected by lesson plans created by myself as lead instructor.
So I'm sorry if I'm upset that after 3 years CCP might actually finally make some change to the part of the game that killed my passion to play eve. All I could think was CCP doesn't care, and they will never update FW, it's a lost cause. I'm not the only one who sorta dropped out of eve because of this.
Blocking us out of stations isn't a big deal. Stations just outside of FW space will start to form into tiny trading hubs. Think of the money you could make setting up a corp just to sell to FW members that are behind enemy lines. Besides all you need is a POS somewhere, and you can use that instead of a station.
Also as a major Fleet commander of the minmatar militia back in the day, I'm sorry but I don't seem to think I saw many of your names in FW. I would love a reason to log back into eve and play FW again. and to be honest I only ever made plex money off of Grinding firetails, so I could slowly wait for even a small update for FW. I've waited 3 years , and it's happening, in just a month FW might be wroth something again. So I'll fight to see that come to fruit!
Besides, like i said, if the changes go live and it's not fun, then we ask them to change it again. NOTHING COULD BE WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW. And the fact that CCP released it with as much hype as they did and then abandoned it still makes me face palm. Didn't you see how epic that expansion was? There was a book, and real in game events. News reports, and even a trailer in the movies. FW has been the biggest disappointment eve has ever seen. yes even bigger than Incarna. Because FW is real in space gameplay. And ignoring a feature that was hyped and built up so effectively, for over 3 years, is disrespectful to the playerbase.
So please, I be you guys, don't fight this change, let it happen, no one is left in FW anyways. If anything this might be a good change after all, and if it's not, FW is already a broken piece of trash, they can just try again, or maybe even abandon it for another 3 years, whatever.
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MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
598
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:24:00 -
[113] - Quote
Quote:Nobody is saying that FW is vital to EVE or that it's currently a success. What we're saying is that these new changes won't help, they will quite possibly make things even worse.
CCP creates an expansion to make FW more popular -> FW becomes less popular -> expansion is a failure.
That's my point, my argument is that it can't get worse at this point. nothing could hurt FW more than it's design right now.
I honestly think FW could be made into something that actually is vital to CCP getting a huge new playerbase. if they did it right. Any step at this point after 3 years of nothing, means there is even a tiny possibility this old vet and others could be drawn back, I SAW GIVE IT A GO!
We'll either make it or we'll go down fighting! |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
70
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:24:00 -
[114] - Quote
And for what it is worth - the main issue I see that is kind of at the root of everyone's complaints:
Whatever changes are made, the best (or even a good) counter should NOT be a meta-game solution. e.g. Neutral alts to get around the station lockout, using mostly unskilled alts to run missions and LP flood IHUBS, or using alt corps to grief the other side (especially that unlike 0.0 corps, we cant control who our "allies" are because anyone can join FacWar).
Regardless, I like the sound of most of the changes. I just hope that they are tweaked properly to avoid the issues described above. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
598
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:29:00 -
[115] - Quote
Hrett wrote:And for what it is worth - the main issue I see that is kind of at the root of everyone's complaints:
Whatever changes are made, the best (or even a good) counter should NOT be a meta-game solution. e.g. Neutral alts to get around the station lockout, using mostly unskilled alts to run missions and LP flood IHUBS, or using alt corps to grief the other side (especially that unlike 0.0 corps, we cant control who our "allies" are because anyone can join FacWar).
Regardless, I like the sound of most of the changes. I just hope that they are tweaked properly to avoid the issues described above.
but hasn't that always been an issue? After 6-8 months people just stopped using militia chat due to spys being so easy to get into there. We had to use outside security channels. I mean this is eve, you can't stop the meta game, can you?
There is no way to tell who is your ally, so FW became a mess. well it was a lot of reasons but I believe that was the biggest drive behind the death of the more open social part of FW. Now everyone is in some corp no one else can join, and the different corps all work alone. this was not the goal on release, it's just how FW is played now because of bad design. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
365
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:33:00 -
[116] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:
Nobody is saying that FW is vital to EVE or that it's currently a success. What we're saying is that these new changes won't help, they will quite possibly make things even worse.
CCP creates an expansion to make FW more popular -> FW becomes less popular -> expansion is a failure.
I agree with this but its tricky just talk about changes as being a success or failure in general.
What one person sees as a success another will see as a failure. Those players who are inclined to play eve like it is a second job and don't mind long waits for large fleets to form up and want to put in lots of effort for large returns will no doubt like these changes. And indeed many null sec players have expressed their happieness with these changes.
Those of us who don't look at eve like a second job but like the casual nature and frequent small scale pvp faction war offers will likely not be happy with the no docking rule and some other "hard core" changes.
IMO these changes are a failure not because people will drop out of faction war. I don't think the numbers in fw will necessarilly decrease in the long run. I think many people who like the null sec style of play will take the places left by people who prefered the casual small scale pvp fw now offers.
I think this is a failure because Eve will no longer be catering to as many diverse play styles. After faction war becomes "null sec lite" what mechanic will cater to people who like the frequent small scale pvp that fw used to offer?
Its a shame that instead of iterating on the strengths of fw through the years, CCP left it abandoned and now just want to force null sec mechanics down our throats. Had they done the former they might now have a much larger player base of casual pvpers. Of course, its never too late to start working that angle they just need to choose to do that. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
70
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 21:35:00 -
[117] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Hrett wrote:And for what it is worth - the main issue I see that is kind of at the root of everyone's complaints:
Whatever changes are made, the best (or even a good) counter should NOT be a meta-game solution. e.g. Neutral alts to get around the station lockout, using mostly unskilled alts to run missions and LP flood IHUBS, or using alt corps to grief the other side (especially that unlike 0.0 corps, we cant control who our "allies" are because anyone can join FacWar).
Regardless, I like the sound of most of the changes. I just hope that they are tweaked properly to avoid the issues described above. but hasn't that always been an issue? After 6-8 months people just stopped using militia chat due to spys being so easy to get into there. We had to use outside security channels. I mean this is eve, you can't stop the meta game, can you? There is no way to tell who is your ally, so FW became a mess. well it was a lot of reasons but I believe that was the biggest drive behind the death of the more open social part of FW. Now everyone is in some corp no one else can join, and the different corps all work alone. this was not the goal on release, it's just how FW is played now because of bad design.
And allowing alliances has resolved much of that issue.
Yes the meta-game in EVE is always an option. No suprise there. It should not be the hands-down best option though.
Anyway - someone from SiSi just said you have to capture numerous systems in a group before they all lock you out. Is that true? Can someone clarify? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
643
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 22:08:00 -
[118] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:[NOTHING COULD BE WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW. Actually, it could. There is some serious discussion among some of the more established FW corps/alliances... and there is a general feeling that it would be easier/simpler to just drop out of FW and go "full pirate"... leaving SP-less alts to do all the grunt work in plex capturing/defending.
Plus... the way the new mechanics are worded (at least, the way we are understanding them), even as "technical neutrals" we would continue to gain most of the system upgrade benefits. Hell... we could LET the "enemy" take over the system, upgrade it at their cost, and STILL kill them while reaping the benefits of THEIR efforts.
Someone explain to me how that is NOT broken? Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
188
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 22:13:00 -
[119] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Yes, And I used to be one of the best FW fleet commanders on the servers. I quit eve over FW being abandoned. I was one of the bigest people pushing for FW before it's release.
Your killboard says otherwise. You can't quit something you never participated in.
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
369
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 22:29:00 -
[120] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:MotherMoon wrote:[NOTHING COULD BE WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW. Actually, it could. There is some serious discussion among some of the more established FW corps/alliances... and there is a general feeling that it would be easier/simpler to just drop out of FW and go "full pirate"... leaving SP-less alts to do all the grunt work in plex capturing/defending. Plus... the way the new mechanics are worded (at least, the way we are understanding them), even as "technical neutrals" we would continue to gain most of the system upgrade benefits. Hell... we could LET the "enemy" take over the system, upgrade it at their cost, and STILL kill them while reaping the benefits of THEIR efforts. Someone explain to me how that is NOT broken?
I think this is the logical consequence based on what we know so far.
So far the only advantage to keep a pvp character in the militia would be you will also get lp for you pvp kills. However unless they make that easy to exploit I doubt it can be very much lp.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2302
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 22:40:00 -
[121] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:MotherMoon wrote:[NOTHING COULD BE WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW. Actually, it could. There is some serious discussion among some of the more established FW corps/alliances... and there is a general feeling that it would be easier/simpler to just drop out of FW and go "full pirate"... leaving SP-less alts to do all the grunt work in plex capturing/defending. Plus... the way the new mechanics are worded (at least, the way we are understanding them), even as "technical neutrals" we would continue to gain most of the system upgrade benefits. Hell... we could LET the "enemy" take over the system, upgrade it at their cost, and STILL kill them while reaping the benefits of THEIR efforts. Someone explain to me how that is NOT broken?
Cause everyone is ignoring the number one change that everyone's been asking for YEARS now, and finally got, the LP payouts for kills and plexing.
You don't get any of those if you're not enlisted, if you go "full pie" you live off the modules your prey drops. Stick around in FW, and you get some sweet LP payouts in addition to the mods that drop.
No one is forcing anyone to meta game or participate in joint ops. If you just want to jump into the next system, beat your chest, kill some people, you can do just that and that alone. The difference is that now there's a paid incentive to do so that never before existed.
This loop of getting paid so you can constantly fight and never grind missions is PRECISELY what the community's been begging for, and got, and now pretends isn't going on when you make arguments like "theres just no reason to be in FW anymore".
FFS, neutral hauler alts have been a way of life for FW pilots for god knows how long. We're not out hauling ships and mods around in our flashy ships, and for damn good reason. We move our stuff around anyways, we re-base to prepare for ops, we have multiple stashes of ships, we make neutral runs to trade hubs, we use neutral corps for POS ownership, we use neutral alts for boosting, we use neutral alts for pretty much anything.
And than one day, using a neutral alt become this "ZOMG HARDCORE CONSEQUENCE LIFE JUST ISNT WORTH LIVING"
The reason that I was so opposed to this initially is that I HATED the idea of using my hauler alt every time I logged in, which was very much a possibility had they kept the system flip times.
Now that they've been stretched a bit, and it looks like taking systems from each other will be an actual *challenge* for once, the thought of having to move a few ships ( every once in a while when I've gotten my ass kicked) is really hard to ***** about and just seems petty in comparison. I reserve further opinion about the docking change till this goes live on Tranq and we can see how long it ACTUALLY takes for everyone to flip systems. If the mechanic sucks, and kills PvP entirely, I'll be the first to hammer CCP about it. But from now on this is about results, not hypotheses.
For the last two years I've heard nothing but "there's no WT's out" "there's no fleet up" "there's nothing to shoot" "The enemy is docked up again" or "we're all docked up again".
Now we have a mechanic that forces pilots to make a few extra jumps, and limits how often they can stay docked up, literally putting more pilots in space, more often, to do the same thing they already want to do. And people are complaining about that too. Putting more pilots in space to shoot and be shot at is exactly what we've been trying to achieve!!
I just think people are crazy if the thought of getting paid well to kill other players will somehow not motivate the casual PvP crowd to get out and pew more.
This crowd of "OMG EXTRA JUMPS" and "OMG NEUTRAL HAULERS" just isn't the crowd that has made me proud to be a FW pilot all these years. It's the crowd that says "**** IT" and drops dreads against a hopelessly overpowered foe, without even needing a paycheck to do so, and without a single complaint about blobbing or numbers. Those guys did it for a Titan killmail and some PRIDE, and CCP is giving everyone even more solid reasons than bragging rights to actually undock from your systems and get out and fight. I dont know why or where everyone's fortitude just shriveled up all of a sudden. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Per c
Inglorious-Basterds
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 23:11:00 -
[122] - Quote
The actual problem of FW at this point is that it is an endless and useless war. Atm what's the point of plexing and controlling a system? What was the reason almost all the caldari veterans left? They just got bored. CCP is trying to fix that issue. I'm afraid about my assets as well but who cares. Don't let your fear overcome you. The only problem i can see about what's gonna happen is ; what are we pirates gonna do? If our home systems are taken we will prolly have to get off FW as we wont be able to go get other ships from highsec.
There is still low sec that is not involved with FW and it's nice to be there. Low sec is never gonna be the wasteland of null. For me, low sec is the place where there should be small scale pvp, solo and pirating. The gallente side is blobby and that's a fact that really concern's me. If the new mechanics are based on numbers caldari side is gonna have a massive problem. Anyway it's gonna suck. After all if we wanted blob we would be in 0.0 . But from what i read i don't believe it's gonna be blob warfare.
Anyhow i believe CCP is working it on the right direction. To be in a continious war we need a purpose, especially when there are boring game mechanics involved, as plexing. What's a better purpose than to keep your **** and your ability to dock in your homesys?
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
643
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 23:14:00 -
[123] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:For the last two years I've heard nothing but "there's no WT's out" "there's no fleet up" "there's nothing to shoot" "The enemy is docked up again" or "we're all docked up again".
Now we have a mechanic that forces pilots to make a few extra jumps, and limits how often they can stay docked up, literally putting more pilots in space, more often, to do the same thing they already want to do. And people are complaining about that too. Putting more pilots in space to shoot and be shot at is exactly what we've been trying to achieve!! Hans... with all due respect... this is how SOV is supposed to work in null-sec. And it doesn't work that way.
When faced with an equal or superior force and the imminent possibility of being locked out from their assets, people are not going to mount a defense. They are going to get as much of their stuff out ASAP because it's EASIER and less risky.
And don't say that "people are not that skittish/lazy." How many fights have we gone into where we thought the fight was "going to be close" or that we were "surely going to die" and then the enemy turns tail after suffering one or two losses? How many times have we taunted the Amarr to come out only to be "blueballed" by them because they say "we can't get an FC" or "we are too tired" or "we don't have any ships"?
Quote:This loop of getting paid so you can constantly fight and never grind missions is PRECISELY what the community's been begging for, and got, and now pretends isn't going on when you make arguments like "theres just no reason to be in FW anymore". Incentivizing "causal" players to come out and engage for ISK good. Punishing "casual" players for not engaging only encourages them to further not engage and actually spend more time "safe-ing up assets."
And if this is what the FW community has been "asking for," why are so many people up in arms? Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 23:31:00 -
[124] - Quote
Hans-
Part of your argument is based on the idea that we don't want to use neutral hauler alts and people are whining about it. This isn't about neutral hauler alts. This is about neutral pilot alts. CCP is telling us that we need to train up a new alt just to pilot every single ship we have that was in locked in station. Wow. So let me spend a few months training my alt to fly every T1 ship and the T2 variants as well . I cannot think of a worse way to spend our training plan than to train an alt just to help us fly ships out of the warzone. Sucks for some of you guys who can pilot caps and expensive shinies eh?
And then others say that we can simply drop corp/militia to get the ships out. Sure, we can do that. That would take us a few nights to move the ships out and back into a safety zone. How long this takes us depends on how many ships a pilot has invested into frontlines. Again, more wasted time. We're spending time on non-combat activities. And don't forget that there are alot of weekend warriors in FW...as there are in other parts of space. So people are saying that it's okay for the weekend warrior to spend his entire weekend dealing with logistics rather than logging on for pew? I guess he just wasted a quarter of his monthly payment by just moving ships.
But then people say; "Well don't train a pilot alt. Just drop corp you whiner!"
Well, don't forget that it takes 24 hours to drop corp if you have roles....so you have to wait longer and become useless to your corp while they're off fighting on some other frontier. And then corpies also miss out on vital corp communications that were sent out when we left. Oh wait. I should just put another alt in corp to avoid missing out on vital details. And when they rejoin, directors need to reassign roles again. A huge headache for those corps who partition hangar bays for certain stations and heavily rely on corp roles to get stuff done. And don't forget about the CEO. He can't just drop corp if he doesn't believe there is someone trustworthy enough to handle corp wallet and other valuable assets.
Some may sweat this stuff and say it sounds melodramatic, but those who are in leadership positions understand that the devil's in the details. Paying attention to the corp operations is what defines the stronger corps from the fly by night operations. This crap just hampers corp operations and takes time away from us to paying attention to the big picture stuff. Like, you know...fighting.
Eve- a game of alts
So much making this part of the sandbox more accessible to others Always smiling :) Gallente Militia -áPVP Corp. Selective recruitment open. http://iamsheriff.com/eagle.html |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
188
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 23:57:00 -
[125] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:And than one day, using a neutral alt become this "ZOMG HARDCORE CONSEQUENCE LIFE JUST ISNT WORTH LIVING" It gets more difficult with fewer skillpoints and experience. That's the tragedy of it all.
Anyways, is there any way the devs can reduce the points per system by a factor of three instead of five? A factor of three would mean that players in every timezone would have a chance at defending a system before it is taken. Here's some examples. Assume there are three active timezones. W = attacking force dominates that timezone. L means it loses, X means a draw.
TZ1, TZ2, TZ3 = time to take, comments W, W, W = 24 hours. You had your chance to defend and chose not to. You deserve your fate. W,W,X = 32 hours. You put up a fight, but still, you were doomed from the start. W,W,L = 40 hours. At least one TZ had the balls to put up a good fight. W,L,W = 54 hours. W,X,X = 72 hours W, X, L = inf. System secured. W,L, L = inf. System easily secured.
IMO, this is plenty of time for the losing side to have put up a defense, and allows for a more dynamic playstyle than the factor of five currently implemented on SISI.
Needing 40 hours to take a system the other side has chosen not to defend is a tragic waste of pvping time.
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mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 00:07:00 -
[126] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cause everyone is ignoring the number one change that everyone's been asking for YEARS now, and finally got, the LP payouts for kills and plexing.
You don't get any of those if you're not enlisted, if you go "full pie" you live off the modules your prey drops. Stick around in FW, and you get some sweet LP payouts in addition to the mods that drop.
No one is forcing anyone to meta game or participate in joint ops. If you just want to jump into the next system, beat your chest, kill some people, you can do just that and that alone. The difference is that now there's a paid incentive to do so that never before existed. I honestly think your are misunderstanding a lot of peoples concerns in here, we are not bashing all the changes that are coming. LP for kills and plexing is sweet as **** if you ask me and potentially a great incentive for more people to go out and shoot stuff. The thing we are questioning is why are neutrals getting the benefits of upgraded systems, it simply makes no sense. Neutrals not involved in the conflict being able to dock makes sense, but if they aren't effected by the cons, why are they getting the pros?
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:This loop of getting paid so you can constantly fight and never grind missions is PRECISELY what the community's been begging for, and got, and now pretends isn't going on when you make arguments like "theres just no reason to be in FW anymore". Even though I like the reward for going out and shooting stuff this needs to be balanced properly to not be exploitable and/or remove the sense of risk and loss when losing your ship which is one of the defining things about eve pvp. It sholdn't be like when insurance paid out more then the ship cost and you could actually make isk off of buying and just blowing it up.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:FFS, neutral hauler alts have been a way of life for FW pilots for god knows how long. We're not out hauling ships and mods around in our flashy ships, and for damn good reason. We move our stuff around anyways, we re-base to prepare for ops, we have multiple stashes of ships, we make neutral runs to trade hubs, we use neutral corps for POS ownership, we use neutral alts for boosting, we use neutral alts for pretty much anything.
And than one day, using a neutral alt become this "ZOMG HARDCORE CONSEQUENCE LIFE JUST ISNT WORTH LIVING"
The reason that I was so opposed to this initially is that I HATED the idea of using my hauler alt every time I logged in, which was very much a possibility had they kept the system flip times.
Now that they've been stretched a bit, and it looks like taking systems from each other will be an actual *challenge* for once, the thought of having to move a few ships ( every once in a while when I've gotten my ass kicked) is really hard to ***** about and just seems petty in comparison. I reserve further opinion about the docking change till this goes live on Tranq and we can see how long it ACTUALLY takes for everyone to flip systems. If the mechanic sucks, and kills PvP entirely, I'll be the first to hammer CCP about it. But from now on this is about results, not hypotheses. It does look a lot better with the current timer if, as you say, that is actually how long it will take when on Tranquility. Also, if you say using a neutral hauler alt isn't that much of an inconvenience, I hope you can see how my argument for being a "neutral" entity still involved in the conflict and instead having your alt in FW plexing/missioning can have it's appeal. There are also other ways than FW missions and plexing to earn isk so we are not all reliant on FW for income.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:For the last two years I've heard nothing but "there's no WT's out" "there's no fleet up" "there's nothing to shoot" "The enemy is docked up again" or "we're all docked up again".
Now we have a mechanic that forces pilots to make a few extra jumps, and limits how often they can stay docked up, literally putting more pilots in space, more often, to do the same thing they already want to do. And people are complaining about that too. Putting more pilots in space to shoot and be shot at is exactly what we've been trying to achieve!! I can't speak for how the Minmatar/Amarr front looks like but in my experience I have had little trouble finding good fights on the Gal/Cal front. Small gangs roaming around and decent amount of traffic. (This was in March since I'm on an involantary semi break atm due to a crappy computer :/ ) And it is this traffic that I am worried might disappear, since no, this mechanic does not "limit how often they can stay docked" but limits where they can stay docked which imo is a pretty big difference. I would hate to see the respective Militias being "centralised" to defend their home systems or being pushed back to high sec because they aren't able to dock. My fear is that this will remove a lot of the smaller traffic in the pipes and create systems that are empty because the enemy hold sov but don't use it and friendlies can't use it because they are unable to utilize the stations.
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Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 00:09:00 -
[127] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:And than one day, using a neutral alt become this "ZOMG HARDCORE CONSEQUENCE LIFE JUST ISNT WORTH LIVING"
...
This crowd of "OMG EXTRA JUMPS" and "OMG NEUTRAL HAULERS"
Wow! I can see that you've trained Caricature & Ridicule all the way up to level 5. An invaluable social skill when it comes to summarizing the debate for CCP, I'm sure. And I like how you've done this while deftly apologizing for your unqualified position of "I have always been against this proposal" that you brought to the fanfest thread. See, you used to be an "OMG NEUTRAL HAULERS", but then you realized that it won't actually be a hardcore consequence, so now you're OK with it.
Well, I don't have C&R V, so it still seems odd to me that you'd characterize neutral alts as simultaneously a HARDCORE CONSEQUENCE and an infrequent hassle that only requires what 'everybody' has anyway. And I don't see how it counts as 'a lot of extra people in space' when I'm in a slicer and he's in a hurricane and both of us are 'OMG FOUR' jumps away from our other ships. Or when we're in Ardar, I've just damaged my modules and bled into armor a bit, and I have to go all the way to 'OMG' Hek before I can think about resuming the hunt. Have fun trying to get a fight from me during that time! At least we're both 'in space', right? Or when I lose a ship in Ardar, and rather than risk losing my pod to a smartbomb I log out and fly in neutral alt in a T1 frig -- well, at least the T1 frig with 0 SP in gunnery will be 'in space' for a while to make things more interesting and fun for you than if I'd not had these HARDCORE consequences.
All of that said, before you remembered that you had Caricature & Ridicule trained up, I think you'd intended to post to the effect that all kinds of good and desirable changes are coming along with station lockout, and that they should be kept in perspective when people are complaining about it. I agree with that. If I get LP enough for a slicer every 2 minors, I'll at least have have those all over the damned place anyway. Many of them in Gallente and Minmatar highsec. |
mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 00:19:00 -
[128] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:This crowd of "OMG EXTRA JUMPS" and "OMG NEUTRAL HAULERS" just isn't the crowd that has made me proud to be a FW pilot all these years. It's the crowd that says "**** IT" and drops dreads against a hopelessly overpowered foe, without even needing a paycheck to do so, and without a single complaint about blobbing or numbers. Those guys did it for a Titan killmail and some PRIDE, and CCP is giving everyone even more solid reasons than bragging rights to actually undock from your systems and get out and fight. I dont know why or where everyone's fortitude just shriveled up all of a sudden.
So basicly, we should all just HTFU, drop some dreads and be happy?
On a serious note, I'm not bitching and moaning and you seem to be taking all this a bit too personally. What I and (most) others in this thread is trying to do is voice our concerns and give feedback on the upcoming changes. I think we all realise that nothing is set in stone and even Sisi wont be a very good test for the kind of changes that are coming with regards to FW sov mechanics but that isn't a reason not to discuss things, voice our opinions and throw some ideas out there.
Also, I do apologise if I come off as a bit whiny, that is not my intent. I blame lack of sleep...
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Marcus Foederatus
Gallente Militia War College
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 01:03:00 -
[129] - Quote
You guys need to man up. You can't have a game system based entirely on carrots and no sticks. Otherwise, all the null sec kiddies would come our way because they can get paid for PVPing. There has to be some sort of pain involved for the participants, so it makes people want to win that much more and fight against losing with more tenacity.
If you guys want some sort of fight clubby PVP, go play counterstrike. This is an MMO, and its an MMO that's constantly being touted as being about as hardcore a gaming experience as you can get. Whining because you want to PVP all the time and not have to do anything else or deal with any consequences will get you zero sympathy from just about everyone. First rule of EVE is don't fly what you can't afford to lose. The first rule of FW will have to be don't put ships where you can't defend. Adapt or die. |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 01:31:00 -
[130] - Quote
Marcus Foederatus wrote:The first rule of FW will have to be don't put ships where you can't defend. Adapt or die.
I can't communicate the 'duh' this statement deserves without ASCII art. There's no question that people will adapt to the change. The question is whether the post-adaptation game will be better or worse for it. If you think it will be better, then talk about that instead of sharing great wisdom like "hey guys, go do what you're going to do".
Here are some advantages for the game:
1. There will be no fights outside stations.
2. More people may want to defend systems, either to preserve access to ships or to preserve access to agents.
3. More people may want to take systems now that this will meaningfully inconvenience the enemy.
4. Defending a system can potentially be easier, as you but not your enemy can have up to four ships (minor, medium, large, bunker) in the system.
5. POSes may sprout up over the place, bringing more of that exciting gameplay to FW.
Of these advantages, I think #1 is insignificant, and that #2 and #3 will be largely defeated by 1) people having already adapted by moving out of most systems, and 2) new sources of LP. I'm not sure if #4 and #5 are really advantages. |
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
189
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 01:55:00 -
[131] - Quote
Marcus Foederatus wrote:You guys need to man up..... Adapt or die. CCP devs should man up. Put in 'ze cynojammers!
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RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
743
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 02:08:00 -
[132] - Quote
The docking rights shut out is terrible. The devs should be ashamed for not seeing why.
Its DOA idea. Turning off station services and having station guns shoot is fine. But this bad on in many ways.
Im not going to get into the whys and what not. I have already gone over a lot of that ages ago.
But this no docking crap goes live. I think im pretty much done with this game. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 02:24:00 -
[133] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Marcus Foederatus wrote:You guys need to man up..... Adapt or die. CCP devs should man up. Put in 'ze cynojammers!
This. The one thing that would be most helpful if you count things like sov, and its left out? |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
60
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 02:42:00 -
[134] - Quote
Marcus Foederatus wrote:You guys need to man up. You can't have a game system based entirely on carrots and no sticks. Otherwise, all the null sec kiddies would come our way because they can get paid for PVPing.
So your argument is essentially "If they make FW too good well, it'll be too good and all of eve will want to play it?"
As long as they keep the system control null sec crap out of it "station lockouts, bubbles etc" I am quite happy with all of eve playing FW. I don't play in nullsec PRECISELY because of the sticks, I don't care if it has better carrots. I want to play casually, be able to dock up in a flash to do something with the wife, or take a pee, grab a snack.
And for the record, it's mostly the station lockouts I have issue with. That, and what I've already outlined in F&I https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1172051#post1172051 |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
376
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 02:47:00 -
[135] - Quote
Hans the station lockout idea sucks. You know it. You even said it. Just *keep* telling ccp that. Thats all we ask. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Yogsoloth
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 03:11:00 -
[136] - Quote
The docking rights issue is just not well thought out.
Ok maybe lock us out of the FW stations themselves, but you couldn't find an non-FW station in system to dock in ?
I mean you can put up a PoS to dock in, but a neutral station would deny you ? Even one you have standings with ?
Forcing militia's to huddle up in primary systems for defense and leaving vast swaths of empty systems (like null) is good how ?
Forcing us to PvE in plexes for hours upon hours to flip or maintain system control will be fun how ?
People think it will bring more pvp but it will not. One side will ultimately outblob the other in whatever TZ happens to be their most active. The other side will simply move on and wait for their own militia's prime time to then counterplex. Both sides will be engaged in hours upon hours of PvE fun orbiting buttons for glory. \o/
Once a particular side gets enough of an advantage (capturing enough mission hubs), the other side will simply quit and move on to other activities. Once that foothold is strong enough, it will be near impossible for the opposing faction to regain their footing. Who in their right mind will join a decimated militia force with few or no mission hubs left to try and mount a comeback.
If lowsec FW players wanted to play the null game, we'd go to the wasteland that is null. It's been stated countless times all over these boards that null needs an overhaul, and so you want to model lowsec after that ?
Bravo ! |
Marcus Foederatus
Gallente Militia War College
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 03:37:00 -
[137] - Quote
Don't be obtuse chatgris. My point is that you can't design one aspect of a multifaceted game and have it be the end all of that game, if your stated position is you want people to fill out all the other elements. As for being casual pvpers, nothing is keeping you from doing that after station lock outs come in. What you all are really bitching about, is that you won't be able to just sit in low sec and not have to worry about your sec status while still pvping where you want.
To that I say, tough ****. You can be a casual pvper no matter where you are, but you can't expect to bend the entire game that everyone else plays to your own personal preference for where you want to keep your ****. If this game is supposed to be as hardcore as is advertised, then all your actions have consequences. Going red has consequences, deal with it guys.
I have no illusions about what station lock outs will do. You may not be able to go pew your enemy that sits on the same station or even a jump away. But if it prevents all the faggotry that we've had to put up with for years now, I'm quite willing to deal with it. It's ******* stupid for an enemy to **** up, get trapped in your home system, but just say "hey guys, lets just dock up our **** in station and pod out, then carrier jump that **** back home." **** that. If your ass was stupid enough to not have an escape plan, you should have to deal with the losses and not have the game mechanics ******* hold your hand and let you keep your toys. FW is not fight club, it's supposed to be warfare. If you all don't think that's what it should be, there are plenty of other ways for you to find your pew.
The chances of having to have one giant home system for everyone is pretty low tbh. If they really are making it longer and harder to flip systems, you'll have plenty of times to get your friends/blues down to the system to kill some squiddies and keep your **** from being locked down. Saying we'll all be clustered together is alarmism of the first order.
All I have to say, is close the loopholes for neutrals. If you shoot FW people, then you shouldn't be able to dock in the stations either. You shouldn't get a free ride just cause you're not in FW if you want to live in the warzone. And put in cynojammers ffs. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2304
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 03:39:00 -
[138] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:[quote=Hans Jagerblitzen]See, you used to be an "OMG NEUTRAL HAULERS", but then you realized that it won't actually be a hardcore consequence, so now you're OK with it.
I'm not OK with it. People aren't listening. I've told CCP consistently I dont like it, my only point is that I'm willing to TRY this change now that its been tweaked, along with all the other FW pilots who arent swearing to rage quit over this, and than I'll form my final opinion based on what I see not based on what I imagine will happen. I think that's a pretty damn sensible approach.
I am not about to shave my head, unsub my accounts, and set myself on fire in protest over this, its silly.
Already there are plenty of players who have come up with a half dozen ways around this single change that everyone is upset about, and frankly I'm most interested in what those players come up with to compensate. If players DO find ways to fight back and take back some space against the odds, than the argument that this "destroys FW" deflates quite a bit.
If coming back from behind is impossible despite REAL EFFORT to do so, than we have a tragic situation worth pitchforking about, and thankfully I'll still be right here hounding CCP to make it right.
This is what makes EVE unique. Emergence. Unpredictable gameplay. The ability for smaller player groups to outwit larger player groups. Economic factors that govern player behavior. No matter how many changes you make to FW, no matter what they are, it becomes experimental the minute it hits Tranquility.
I guess it just frustrates me that despite the fact that I'm not happy about this faction warfare change either, I'm willing to at least stick around and see how it plays out. Many of you will join me. I can't wait to shoot you, and be shot in return. I think we'll have lots of fun!
Others of you will quit before the changes even settle into the warzone, based on principle and prediction rather than observed consequence. There's absolutely nothing I can do about that, unfortunately. I can't MAKE people try the game if they refuse.
FW will lose members over this. That is inevitable. I just think its dumb to lose members that haven't tried the new system. If you all want to try it for a month and THAN decide it sucks and quit, that's much more reasonable. But this premature "Imma quit" stuff is just counterproductive and hurts the community for no good reason. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2304
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 03:45:00 -
[139] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Hans the station lockout idea sucks. You know it. You even said it. Just *keep* telling ccp that. Thats all we ask.
My responsibility is to do everything in my power to express the community's concerns to CCP, thats all I've done for the last month, and its what I will be doing the rest of the year. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
379
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 04:15:00 -
[140] - Quote
Marcus Foederatus wrote: To that I say, tough ****. You can be a casual pvper no matter where you are, but you can't expect to bend the entire game that everyone else plays to your own personal preference for where you want to keep your ****. If this game is supposed to be as hardcore .....
No you can't be casual and do null sec. Plus I am not asking for everyone else in the game to to bend to my prefence of casual play. I am just asking that ccp allow one part of the game allow for casual play and frequent quality pvp.
You want "hardcore"? Null sec offers it. Really it does, go for it. Hardcore computer gaming mmo in its finest. I just ask that every part of eve not be like a second job.
Let me roam around shoot stuff and if I need to take care of something in real life, I would like to just dock up and take care of it. Not have to worry about going 10 jumps to dock up first. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
380
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 04:18:00 -
[141] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote:Hans the station lockout idea sucks. You know it. You even said it. Just *keep* telling ccp that. Thats all we ask. My responsibility is to do everything in my power to express the community's concerns to CCP, thats all I've done for the last month, and its what I will be doing the rest of the year.
Thanks hans I know your doing what you can. CCP can be stubborn sometimes. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
190
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 04:58:00 -
[142] - Quote
Hrett wrote:This. The one thing that would be most helpful if you count things like sov, and its left out? Having cyno jammers in low sec would be game breaking because it would limit the use of super capital fleets in a few low sec systems.
|
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 05:25:00 -
[143] - Quote
Im wondering if someone at CCP has actually realised, that the original number of systems hold by a faction is a bit weird:
Gallente ~ 50 sytems Caldari ~ 50 sytems -> Caldari-Gallente FW zone ~ 100 Systems (1:1)
Minmatar ~ 40 systems Amarr ~ 30 systems (looks like someone got bored here ) -> Amarr-Minmatar FW zone ~ 70 Systems (3:4)
This has already an issuse right now; but it will create even more problems if they implement anything based on the number of systems hold by faction (mentioned at fan fest). Depending on how they do it amarr will be either winner or loser. |
Simyaldee
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 06:01:00 -
[144] - Quote
Oh dear it seems I will be unable to get a (hopefully) calm and orderly post out before all the finger pointing and yelling begins, oh well.
There seem to be some issues with this Upcoming patch both good and bad I'll go ahead and address the good things first.
1. Rewards for PvP and Plexing are good: First notice that plexing and PvP are separate, this is because plexing, in my opinion anyway, exists in a sort of quasi state between the two but we might get to that later. Anyway, these are great ways to encourage both activities while reducing the Farming community with the next item on the list. I think Hans was kind of right to view this as a a reason to wait and see what happens with the Patch however I do have an issue with his stance which I'll get to later.
2. Nerf of the FW discount on LP is Good: While those of us (yes me) who spend a large amount of time(and a certain amount of sanity) to grind through FW missions to fund their PvP habit might see this as a bad thing I do not. Now Farmers will have to mission how many umpteen times more to be able to buy the things that were relatively inexpensive before, and now they can just go to High Sec and mission because they can get similar output their with less risk. This SHOULD mean less supply. And if my bare minimum economic skills are right less supply, as long as demand remains the same, equals higher prices which is good for our faction market.
"But the loss of the discount will mean that WE will have to mission more too." Some of you might say. Not necessarily true, if you are active in the FW PvP/Plexing Arena this income should make up some of the difference if not most of it, it depends on the scale of the PvP Reward system their using which i will also get too later. Also the hopefully higher sell prices of your faction rewards should also make more of the difference.
3. Reducing the Value a Plex on Occupancy is Kinda Good: While it didn't really matter to me before, with the advent of consequences for Occupancy(I refuse to call it Sov because I ******* hate references to 0.0) this make sure that its at least more difficult for a single TZ Group to capture a system while those systems occupants are asleep or at work. However 40 Hours of Plexing? Really? Seems a bit much, nobody is gonna bother because that 40 Hours will translate into a constant two week grind back and forth between forces until one either gives up or wins.
"But thats great MOAR PVP" Some people will say, well maybe not. How many of YOU would spend 40 hours of Plex grinding, no roaming with the necessary breaks in PvP after people have bashed apart their nearby ships(which are probably farther apart now) or would you just move all your assets to High Sec where they would be safe, and PvP at your leisure without Alarm Clock CTA's(Anybody else notice how many of these changes seems to bleed Null Sec?) or worrying about said assets. Honestly the only people I know who would do it on a consistent basis would be Val, Damar of course and maybe X Gal.
I think It would be better if the time was somewhere around 24 hours so that a dedicated group of people could do it but less dedicated people wouldn't find it so worthless and lose interest like they did before the original plexing changes.
4. Possible Imbalance of LP with Kills is a possible Bad: This is probably one of the easiest problems to solve, Its pretty easy to imagine the system. If a BC kills a BC they should get(a reasonable LP I think is 20,000 about the same LP as most level 4 missions). If the size and/or tech of the ship that does the killing goes up the reward goes down and vice versa. The only tricky part is going to be whether or not the LP is distributed between those others who participated on the kills. This is one of the most easily solved bads in my opinion, even if a ship rewards its market amount in LP, there is no Profit in farming an alt because you well...you get no profit.
5. Infrastructure Hubs: This is typically a meh in my opinion. But there are some fundamental problems with CCP's Idea. If were going to devote our hard earned blood(or sanity) money to upgrades for a system, they should be upgrades that we alone can exploit. I don't want to spend my LP for an extra manufacturing slot, only to have some neutral grab it up why should I bother? The LP should be spent on stuff like, improving the rats in plexes, decreasing the cost when we repair OUR ship and such like.
6. And now we come to the main issue,Complete Lock out Stations is B-A-D BAD: For those who don't seem to understand let me tell you what has kept Faction Warfare alive through almost half a decade of neglect. The ease of PvP and the network of beloved friends and hated enemies resultant thereof. Its not that this change will cut off PvP, as far as I know with current game mechanics and the current group of people I don't think we will ever stop fighting each other, its that it will make it HARDER for us to PvP, especially when it comes to plexing. With two roaming gangs when one loses it usually disbands or go's elsewhere for a fight, thus reship times are not to much of an issue. Although if the losing fleet might want to re-engage a faster reship time is better so that the winning fleet doesn't lose interest.
However if a plex timer is involved, reshipping is CRITICAL. Many hardcore plexers have ships sprinkled all over the area for ease of access, much of that would go away if this happens.
I think its better if instead of fighting for docking rights, we fight for OCCUPANCY rights. Their are all KINDS of ways to give a stick to people when it comes to station services, things you take for granted like the infinite amount of ship and hold space you get along with the myriad other changes people have propo. Im not the first to propose this, in fact our illustrious representative Hans is a main supporter of this idea. And this provides enough of a stick to people
Join the war, Join the4
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ImmutableDark
Philosophical Rape Fountain
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 06:06:00 -
[145] - Quote
I fully support all of the proposed changes listed. It would be great to shake things up. Lets see what works and what doesn't then complain about it eh? I think being able to dock in an occupied system will add a lot more strategy and give purpose to faction warfare. I honestly don't know what you're all whinging about unless you've got capitals I can see the potential for locking you out of a station to be a big problem.
Either way because there are big consequences it will bring people together. GOOD THING If there are big consequences and the plex value is decreased by a factor of five things will need to be more coordinated. GOOD THING There are actual rewards for risking your buttocks. GOOD THING Because of all of these things people might be more attracted to join the militia. GOOD THING The changes are making a lot of gallente militia members cry. GOOD THING
This may be the only thing that CCP has done right in a while. i.e. They're going back to their old ways of making good game designs and sticking by them instead of giving into pressure from whiners and nerfing everything (Caldari ships). I honestly hope CCP don't side with the complainers because we know who has the most complaining power (the Gallente Militia). In fact I remember a time when one of the Gallente Militia members was complaining because she thought that the Caracal was overpowered.... wtf. I will happily trade the Caracal for the Vexor or the Thorax any fricken day. In fact I'd trade the Caracal for any cruiser, Belicose, I don't care.
To summarise.
Gallente Militia = Whinging Babies |
Simyaldee
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 06:06:00 -
[146] - Quote
Special Quick post about Hans. I also believe you are doing a superb Job as our representative and I still support you 100%. Dig in those heals brother show that trademark Militia stubbornness when it comes to dealing with CCP's ignorance, don't give up hope. Show them that a EVE that has to conform to the whims of 0.0 is not an EVE worth playing. Join the war, Join the4
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 06:16:00 -
[147] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:...FFS, neutral hauler alts have been a way of life for FW pilots for god knows how long ... And than one day, using a neutral alt become this "ZOMG HARDCORE CONSEQUENCE LIFE JUST ISNT WORTH LIVING"... Neutral use has been and will always be a part of daily for some (as a lol-RP'er rules, regulations, ethics, morals etc. has denied me the pleasure ). The problem with it is not the neutral use, it is CCP moving it from representing convenience to being a necessity for anything to get done .. they shouted loudly from their high horse that they are loathe to dictate how we play the game, yet ..
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:...Putting more pilots in space to shoot and be shot at is exactly what we've been trying to achieve!!... Allow me to quote myself, because I am so awesome
Quote:Now if they wanted to really make it fancy, then access would be determined by VP in pool so that system tug-o-war scenarios could play themselves out .. at ~50/50 both sides have access to everything but as pool starts tilting towards one the opposition gradually loses access with docking being the last to go. That way an offensive into 'virgin' territory requires a minimum of say 15% VP for docking to be enabled, reinforcing the offensive and driving casualties skywards. Achieves exactly the same "pilots in space", but without force-feeding turds to sides that are chronically outgunned/outmanned plus puts pressure on both sides to stay vigilant = even MOAR! pilots in space.
X Gallentius wrote:Hrett wrote:This. The one thing that would be most helpful if you count things like sov, and its left out? Having cyno jammers in low sec would be game breaking because it would limit the use of super capital fleets in a few low sec systems. Remove super-immunity when they are within the borders of Empire space and put severe restrictions on ability to bridge into said space, not out though as the Empires surely has no qualms about letting people run away from them. PS: Cyno-jammers in their current implementation are for lazies if you ask me. They should allow cyno's, but with a hard limit to what can come through (think WW2 AAA shredding a para-drop or artillery pounding a beach landing) ..
Edit: Trololololol, just logged in and last nights uncontested Kourm is now one of Shakor's internment camps .. Goddess I love CCP last fix to plexing soooooo much! |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
245
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 06:18:00 -
[148] - Quote
Ahazu Sagam wrote:Im wondering if someone at CCP has actually realised, that the original number of systems hold by a faction is a bit weird: Gallente ~ 50 sytems Caldari ~ 50 sytems -> Caldari-Gallente FW zone ~ 100 Systems (1:1) Minmatar ~ 40 systems Amarr ~ 30 systems (looks like someone got bored here ) -> Amarr-Minmatar FW zone ~ 70 Systems (3:4) This has already an issuse right now; but it will create even more problems if they implement anything based on the number of systems hold by faction (mentioned at fan fest). Depending on how they do it amarr will be either winner or loser.
It will probably be based off a percent of the systems you own within your own section of FW. One thing that I think does need to happen (especially if it takes 40 hours of uninterrupted plexing to take a system) is to remove the bonus points you get for plexing in a system that was originally your factions (right now it would take the gallente 30 plexes to take a system in black rise, whereas the caldari would only have to take roughly 20 plexes in contrast). There is bonus VP if the occupancy is yours, and there is bonus VP awarded if the sovereignty of the system was your factions. I think the bonus VP should be abolished, since pre-december with the outpost changes FW was so stale because of the spawning/bonus VP mechanics that each faction held their own sovereign space and did not occupy enemy space. It literally took months to make systems vulnerable. There was no feeling of making progress or change, so only the "hardcore" plexers really participated. Once the outpost respawn changes were made, plexing felt something within reach to the wider FW population. Players felt like they were accomplishing something and participation in plexing went up. I can understand why X gal doesn't want flipping systems to take so long, because players don't have any sense of progression like it was in the past. However, I can see hans point of view as with station lockouts becoming a reality shortly, 6-7 hours is really too short of a time. Players could go to sleep and wake up to see their assets locked out. I think that is more damaging to FW than anything. A longer time to flip systems is necessary, and I feel that we should give the whole factor of 5 thing a try, given that each militia gets the same amount of VP for taking a plex, I really don't think having a 30% bonus to VP for the system being originally your factions is necessary. I don't think there will be need for any bonus VP at all since the defending militia will have a home field advantage anyway with being able to reship in system and the other militia cannot. Each side should have to put in the same amount of effort, and if there is to be any bonus VP for defenders it needs to be smaller than the 30% (20 to 30 plex example). I think 10% is more appropriate. (Also, if you reduce the amount of plexes needed below the factor of 5 threshhold, keep the defending bonus VP, removing the defending bonuses is just necessary with the factor of 5 (150 plexes) because the map will just stagnate)
On another note, I logged onto sisi and did a couple plexes (both offensive and defensive) and did not receive any LP, anyone know why? Does it take a certain amount of time to pay out? |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 06:21:00 -
[149] - Quote
Superchair - the EDIT button and the ENTER key. Use them! :) |
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 06:48:00 -
[150] - Quote
Quote:Without going into exhaustive detail:
2. There are 5 levels of discounts for a number of different things - if you own the system and have upgraded it - Medical clone discounts (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50% discount) - Number of assembly lines increases by 1 for every level - All broker fees discounted (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50%) - NOTE: You only get these discounts in the FW system - ADDENDUM: These discounts apply to neutrals not in FW
.
CCP- Get rid of the assembly line bonus. It's not like there's a shortage of factory slots in lowsec. And do not allow neutrals to use the discounts mentioned above.
Instead;
Allow for
-faster production time for the assembly lines. Maybe 5% per level up to 25%. -extra research labs. Perhaps 1 extra research lab per level. Though, I'm not even sure if there's enough or any research labs in the FW systems?
These bonuses should apply only to FW pilots. The extra research slots would certainly be of great appeal to the industrialists that is in every major militia corps. All strong militia corps have some sort of industrial backbone and the usage of research labs would greatly benefit militia corps from an indy perspective.
I'm all for pew and having LP for pew, but even all great wars are fueled by elements industrialism. :) Gallente Militia -áPVP Corp. Selective recruitment open. http://iamsheriff.com/eagle.html |
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Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 06:54:00 -
[151] - Quote
I am no PI expert, but wouldnt it be nice if PI output or POCOs in those systems were upgraded in some way? |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
605
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 06:58:00 -
[152] - Quote
Hrett wrote:And allowing alliances has resolved much of that issue.
WHAT? O.O I better get in contact with my old contacts! When did they let alliances back into FW? and hey I waited a long time for some changes don't blame me for not being up to date anymore. |
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
244
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 06:58:00 -
[153] - Quote
Hrett wrote:I am no PI expert, but wouldnt it be nice if PI output or POCOs in those systems were upgraded in some way?
Good idea. That can work too. You can get more output from your PI. Not sure how POCO upgrades would work though as that isn't my expertise.
Of course, I realize that you'll just have some bears (or alts) come and join the winning side but it's gonna happen regardless if it's this, datacores or whatever. I can tolerate some level of exploitation as long as its not game breaking. :) Gallente Militia -áPVP Corp. Selective recruitment open. http://iamsheriff.com/eagle.html |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
605
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 07:06:00 -
[154] - Quote
Quote:Now that they've been stretched a bit, and it looks like taking systems from each other will be an actual *challenge* for once, the thought of having to move a few ships ( every once in a while when I've gotten my ass kicked) is really hard to ***** about and just seems petty in comparison. I reserve further opinion about the docking change till this goes live on Tranq and we can see how long it ACTUALLY takes for everyone to flip systems. If the mechanic sucks, and kills PvP entirely, I'll be the first to hammer CCP about it. But from now on this is about results, not hypotheses.
You good sir, are the best member on the CSM |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
111
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 07:53:00 -
[155] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Hrett wrote:And allowing alliances has resolved much of that issue. WHAT? O.O I better get in contact with my old contacts! When did they let alliances back into FW? and hey I waited a long time for some changes don't blame me for not being up to date anymore.
this actually tells how serious ur comments on station lock are ... are u really playing FW or u r just another alt troll?
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Hi Lighter
The Imperial Fedaykin
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 07:55:00 -
[156] - Quote
Maz3r Rakum wrote:Seraphine Keratuus wrote:I cant wait for the day the bears realize that we can stop them from getting to their agents.
As far as iam concerned..Amarr go grab every System with TLF Staions we grab every System with a 24IC and let the tears flow.. lol, I've considered several times war deccing the bear corps that contribute nothing within my own milita. Then again bombers are such a ***** to catch :p
I catch them all time buddy u just need to believe |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 11:24:00 -
[157] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Marcus Foederatus wrote: To that I say, tough ****. You can be a casual pvper no matter where you are, but you can't expect to bend the entire game that everyone else plays to your own personal preference for where you want to keep your ****. If this game is supposed to be as hardcore .....
No you can't be casual and do null sec. Plus I am not asking for everyone else in the game to to bend to my prefence of casual play. I am just asking that ccp allow one part of the game allow for casual play and frequent quality pvp. You want "hardcore"? Null sec offers it. Really it does, go for it. Hardcore computer gaming mmo in its finest. I just ask that every part of eve not be like a second job. Let me roam around shoot stuff and if I need to take care of something in real life, I would like to just dock up and take care of it. Not have to worry about going 10 jumps to dock up first.
You're not in null sec. It won't be 10 jumps to the nearest station, because the enemy will be where the front is. And you are asking everyone else to bend to your preference of play, because you want to keep a major change out that would actually make people participate in occupancy warfare, simply because it is too much of a penalty for you to stomach. You will still be able to base in high sec and low sec systems that aren't in FW, of which there are plenty. And if you all actually put some effort into defending your stuff (which won't be that hard after the patch), then you won't even have to worry about it. |
Galatica789
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:14:00 -
[158] - Quote
Make it so neutrals cant even dock in our stations either. Really put the squeeze on people. Gal mil should be the only ones allowed to dock in the area >:D From OMS to Tama. and Suj too >:D
If Cal mil cant dock in our station neither should neutrals. I dont care about you squids or neutrals in the area, shoudlve joined gal mil.
Also please make it so we can elect certain corps to head the miltia to make decisions like seeing which corps/people can join our miltia.
Also I cant wait to place two different alts in the differnet miltias and have them shoot each other ALL DAY in cheap frigs to make isk. Ty CCP, made my life easier for once xoxo |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:19:00 -
[159] - Quote
Quote:2. There are 5 levels of discounts for a number of different things - if you own the system and have upgraded it - Medical clone discounts (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50% discount) - Number of assembly lines increases by 1 for every level - All broker fees discounted (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50%) - NOTE: You only get these discounts in the FW system - ADDENDUM: These discounts apply to neutrals not in FW
The bolded part doesn't make sense. So do you or don't you? I think it would be a dumb idea to give neutrals a piece of what other people fought for. |
PC5
Szwadron Frozen Synapse
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:36:00 -
[160] - Quote
Hans if you want some more input on FW changes - read my post. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1244253#post1244253 |
|
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 13:00:00 -
[161] - Quote
I think that if this system does go live though they should reset eveything. Then make it so that you have to gain territory in succesion. None of this grabing Tama and/or OMS right off the bat territory gain. You come in through a regional gate and capture the system, then move onto the next. This would force better fights and actually cause there to be a front line. |
Shepard Book
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
58
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 13:02:00 -
[162] - Quote
I do not understand why so many people in empire want an easy mode factional warfare with less risk and reward when you have been crying since the system has been out that you want it more meaningful.
I hope they do bring more elements of conquerable stations, cyno jammers, and jump bridges into factional warfare. |
Ramon Sohei
URSALIS LOGISTICS GROUP Villore Accords
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 13:02:00 -
[163] - Quote
Galatica789 wrote:Make it so neutrals cant even dock in our stations either. Really put the squeeze on people. Gal mil should be the only ones allowed to dock in the area >:D From OMS to Tama. and Suj too >:D
If Cal mil cant dock in our station neither should neutrals. I dont care about you squids or neutrals in the area, shoudlve joined gal mil.
Also please make it so we can elect certain corps to head the miltia to make decisions like seeing which corps/people can join our miltia.
Also I cant wait to place two different alts in the differnet miltias and have them shoot each other ALL DAY in cheap frigs to make isk. Ty CCP, made my life easier for once xoxo
I agree with your idea that neutrals shouldn't even dock in our stations or maybe based on sec status. But you know CCP will have to cater also to pirates. |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 13:21:00 -
[164] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:It won't be 10 jumps to the nearest station, because the enemy will be where the front is.
Meaning: if we don't fight except in 1-2 systems, we won't have far to jump. Played a lot of RvB, have you?
Quote:And you are asking everyone else to bend to your preference of play, because you want to keep a major change out
Meaning: yeah, sure, you've enumerated many actual reasons that the change is dumb, and I've neither assaulted those reasons nor really though tthrough my single counter to it that you've already attacked --but really, even though I want one thing and you want the opposite of that thing, the issue is that you are trying to bend everyone else to your preference of play. Not me, though! No bending here! No preferences here! My position is completely neutral and your position is radical and strange.
Quote:that would actually make people participate in occupancy warfare
No, LP for plexing does that. Station lockout makes people move their ****. Look: station lockout is probably coming, and 90 people in Amarr militia just finished not caring about two systems that just went vulnerable. Actual station lockout - outside of the one system they have all their stuff in, if it's still a lowsec system (why Kamela and not Tuomuta, which is one jump away?) - won't make them care more than imminent station lockout.
Quote:simply because it is too much of a penalty for you to stomach.
No, that's the conversation you want to have. You want to hear people whining that it'll be tooooo haaaaard, because it's a hell of a lot easier to say HTFU than to read and understand and reply to the arguments and scenarios that have been presented to you. Me, I expect station lockout to come, and I know exactly what I'm going to do about it, and the result will be that the alleged point of it will be completely defeated. We'll all adapt, and the post-adaptation world be worse for this specific feature in the specific ways that we've said, but then FW won't die thanks to everything else about Inferno, and then you can come back and say, hey, what chicken littles those guys were, right? And now everyone set your alarm clocks, because this neutral POS that we'll all get a faction hit for attacking will go out of reinforcement at...
Quote:You will still be able to base in high sec and low sec systems that aren't in FW, of which there are plenty.
Here is a map: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar
Here is another map: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Caldari_VS_Gallente
Amarr are going be just fine, no matter what happens. Minmatar would be screwed by any turnaround in the war. As for the Caldari/Gallente side... hope you like death stars. |
Yogsoloth
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 13:49:00 -
[165] - Quote
Schalac wrote:I think that if this system does go live though they should reset eveything. Then make it so that you have to gain territory in succesion. None of this grabing Tama and/or OMS right off the bat territory gain. You come in through a regional gate and capture the system, then move onto the next. This would force better fights and actually cause there to be a front line.
Some of us were discussing this yesterday.
If this does go through to live, then I like this concept.
I absolutely think this format would encourage more fighting, and prevent some of the meta gaming shenanigans (eg: noob alts plexing back systems to farm LP & blitzing mission hubs also come to mind, in addition to the Tama and Oms blitzing).
Denial of docking rights is still a poorly thought out concept though. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
190
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:06:00 -
[166] - Quote
Yogsoloth wrote:If this does go through to live, then I like this concept. It's going to happen anyways. 1. Attacking side is going to need 23/7 coverage to capture a system in a reasonable amount of time. If attackers are not active, the other side's afk plexing alts will grind away all of your gains. LP for plexing means there will be many afk defensive plexing alts available to clean up systems all day long.
2. The defenders get to reship in system, you're going to need to jump into another system to reship. Systems with no adjacent stations (like Rakapas, or Nisuwa+Notoras) are going to be a nearly impossible to win. Being active enough to swap out ships and win plexes is going to be a challenge.
Bottom Line: Lack of docking rights is going to make flipping a system more than one jump away from a friendly station very challenging if the other side puts up even a litle bit of a fight.
Therefore, you'll see an actual frontlines. Guys like Mutnin may guerilla campaign out of Pellile, Aeschee, or some Gallente corp may use Tierjev, some smart Amarr corp may use Egglehended or a Caldari system in the far north, but overall it's going to be front line fighting.
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:06:00 -
[167] - Quote
Naah, Shakor's butt monkeys will be in good shape even if we take and hold everything up to Dal .. there is access to Amarr FW space directly from Gallente space and the Amak high-sec path is pretty much ideally situated .. only downside of that one is the lack of station next door to Amak (if I remember correctly) but its a hop-and-a-skip to Rens so 'meh'.
Changes will revitalize ninja plexing in a big way and condense fighting even more than the infini-plex change did .. FW will by and large be the poorer for it .. the whole thing reeks of CCP either lacking anything remotely resembling a vision for FW or being bent over by null interests.
And that is it from me until the blogs come 'round. |
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:16:00 -
[168] - Quote
I know its just SISI but, im sure CCP is trolling us.
- You can't dock in enemy low sec but you can dock in enemy high sec.
- LP payout for killing people is still a joke.
If they realy want to do this station lockout, it should affect neutrals as well as long as they have not a standing of +2.0 to the faction (Amarr for 24th IC systems, ...) |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:17:00 -
[169] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: It's going to happen anyways. 1. Attacking side is going to need 23/7 coverage to capture a system in a reasonable amount of time. If attackers are not active, the other side's afk plexing alts will grind away all of your gains. LP for plexing means there will be many afk defensive plexing alts available to clean up systems all day long.
2. The defenders get to reship in system, you're going to need to jump into another system to reship. Systems with no adjacent stations (like Rakapas, or Nisuwa+Notoras) are going to be a nearly impossible to win. Being active enough to swap out ships and win plexes is going to be a challenge.
Bottom Line: Lack of docking rights is going to make flipping a system more than one jump away from a friendly station very challenging if the other side puts up even a litle bit of a fight.
And I've heard that it will take 5 times as any plexes to take a system. This is a way that people have already adapted to the horrible station lock-out idea -- by convincing CCP that it must come with an enormous nerf to system-flipping, rather than the more gentle rebalance we might have gotten. |
Yogsoloth
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:18:00 -
[170] - Quote
Also, there's been rumor that defensive plexing gives no LP reward ???
The awesomeness of this simply can not be overstated !
/sarcasm off |
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
383
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:34:00 -
[171] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Cearain wrote:Marcus Foederatus wrote: To that I say, tough ****. You can be a casual pvper no matter where you are, but you can't expect to bend the entire game that everyone else plays to your own personal preference for where you want to keep your ****. If this game is supposed to be as hardcore .....
No you can't be casual and do null sec. Plus I am not asking for everyone else in the game to to bend to my prefence of casual play. I am just asking that ccp allow one part of the game allow for casual play and frequent quality pvp. You want "hardcore"? Null sec offers it. Really it does, go for it. Hardcore computer gaming mmo in its finest. I just ask that every part of eve not be like a second job. Let me roam around shoot stuff and if I need to take care of something in real life, I would like to just dock up and take care of it. Not have to worry about going 10 jumps to dock up first. You're not in null sec. It won't be 10 jumps to the nearest station, because the enemy will be where the front is. And you are asking everyone else to bend to your preference of play, because you want to keep a major change out that would actually make people participate in occupancy warfare, simply because it is too much of a penalty for you to stomach. You will still be able to base in high sec and low sec systems that aren't in FW, of which there are plenty. And if you all actually put some effort into defending your stuff (which won't be that hard after the patch), then you won't even have to worry about it.
I often go roaming in the back waters for fights. So while 10 jumps would be at the high end it wouldn't be impossible in my current way of playing especially if as i predict minmatar basically end up taking all the systems.
You are correct that with these changes it would force most of the fighting to the frontlines where as a mostly solo pilot I can expect to get blobbed much more frequently. I'm not really thrilled with that.
As far as plenty of systems to base out of. Well if my sec status continues to drop high sec won't be an option. But there are a few non fw low sec systems I could go to that is true. I don't think there are that many though and again after minmatar take over the fw systems they will basically be the front lines with the blobs.
Yeah I am talking about how this will gut my own particular play style. I'm not trying to speak for everyone. But my point remains that if you want hardcore you can go to null sec and do that. You have that option. You want to put in big effort for big reward go to null sec. I don't mean that as a dig but as a serious recomendation. Look at goonswarm they have so much isk they are litterally paying their members to throw ships away in jita!
Meanwhile if they turn faction war into null sec lite what options will casual pvpers like me have? Where can I expect to get fequent quality pvp?
The whole idea of putting lots of effort into a computer game is not for me. I really enjoy the game and really like the pvp. I like the consequences of fights and the fact that when I lose a ship it costs me something. But I am not interested in putting allot of effort in to politics or organizing other players to achieve the ability to carebear more isk in safe areas where the enemy can't dock. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:51:00 -
[172] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Yogsoloth wrote:If this does go through to live, then I like this concept. It's going to happen anyways. 1. Attacking side is going to need 23/7 coverage to capture a system in a reasonable amount of time. If attackers are not active, the other side's afk plexing alts will grind away all of your gains. LP for plexing means there will be many afk defensive plexing alts available to clean up systems all day long. 2. The defenders get to reship in system, you're going to need to jump into another system to reship. Systems with no adjacent stations (like Rakapas, or Nisuwa+Notoras) are going to be a nearly impossible to win. Being active enough to swap out ships and win plexes is going to be a challenge. Bottom Line: Lack of docking rights is going to make flipping a system more than one jump away from a friendly station very challenging if the other side puts up even a litle bit of a fight. Therefore, you'll see an actual frontlines. Guys like Mutnin may guerilla campaign out of Pellile, Aeschee, or some Gallente corp may use Tierjev, some smart Amarr corp may use Egglehended or a Caldari system in the far north, but overall it's going to be front line fighting.
I think if you fight "font line" battles you will lose out on the sovereignty. I believe there are better strategies that will help split the battles up and then combine for large engagements to ultimately flip the system (bunker bust)
The militia that cooperates the most will be supreme. Common goals = common rewards. The more I think about it the more excited I am for the new changes.
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2310
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:48:00 -
[173] - Quote
I wanted to speak for a moment about the GÇ£neutrals taking our benefitsGÇ¥ concerns. First, letGÇÖs look at the benefits being offered. Discount clones, discount brokers fees, etc. A few extra slots for manufacturing (which many people rightfully point out isnGÇÖt very useful). What neutrals CANGÇÖT do is obtain LP rewards, conquer plexes, fire upon faction warfare pilots without going GCC, etc.
I think itGÇÖs important to put these into context. Low sec has suffered for years now, with players almost universally demanding buffs across the board, extra incentives to live and work in a higher risk area. With the new upgrade system in place, it really means that these system rewards for FW sovereignty will be active in most systems fought over by FW pilots. It doesnGÇÖt matter who owns them, the residents will activate the benefits, and neutrals will enjoy the perks. The entire FW zone suddenly has incentives for high sec residents to enjoy low sec, with the added benefit that weGÇÖll likely be busy enough fighting each other that piracy should decline, much like it was less of an issue during the GÇ£golden yearsGÇ¥ of FW. When FW pilots have enough WTGÇÖs to shoot, theyGÇÖre much less likely to harm neutrals out of boredom.
Personally, I could care less of a neutral gets a half price clone without working for it, itGÇÖs really not a game-breaker for me or something I want to deny anyone just because they didnGÇÖt fight my war. I donGÇÖt really care if traders in lowsec pay half-price taxes and fees. I can only see this as a great thing. More activity in lowsec, whether they are neutrals or FW pilots, is universally a great thing. I think itGÇÖs important to ask ourselves whether the benefit of enhancing most of lowsec space in this manner and making it a more enticing place to live (even if you think the bonuses arenGÇÖt that great) is something we want to fight against GÇ£just cause they didnGÇÖt lift a finger to helpGÇ¥.
And for those of you like myself who are willing to break the law to get some killmails, you totally understand why increasing low sec activity (neutral or otherwise) is WAY more important than denying pilots outside the war some perks based on principle.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:00:00 -
[174] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I wanted to speak for a moment about the GÇ£neutrals taking our benefitsGÇ¥ concerns. First, letGÇÖs look at the benefits being offered. Discount clones, discount brokers fees, etc. A few extra slots for manufacturing (which many people rightfully point out isnGÇÖt very useful). What neutrals CANGÇÖT do is obtain LP rewards, conquer plexes, fire upon faction warfare pilots without going GCC, etc.
I think itGÇÖs important to put these into context. Low sec has suffered for years now, with players almost universally demanding buffs across the board, extra incentives to live and work in a higher risk area. With the new upgrade system in place, it really means that these system rewards for FW sovereignty will be active in most systems fought over by FW pilots. It doesnGÇÖt matter who owns them, the residents will activate the benefits, and neutrals will enjoy the perks. The entire FW zone suddenly has incentives for high sec residents to enjoy low sec, with the added benefit that weGÇÖll likely be busy enough fighting each other that piracy should decline, much like it was less of an issue during the GÇ£golden yearsGÇ¥ of FW. When FW pilots have enough WTGÇÖs to shoot, theyGÇÖre much less likely to harm neutrals out of boredom.
Personally, I could care less of a neutral gets a half price clone without working for it, itGÇÖs really not a game-breaker for me or something I want to deny anyone just because they didnGÇÖt fight my war. I donGÇÖt really care if traders in lowsec pay half-price taxes and fees. I can only see this as a great thing. More activity in lowsec, whether they are neutrals or FW pilots, is universally a great thing. I think itGÇÖs important to ask ourselves whether the benefit of enhancing most of lowsec space in this manner and making it a more enticing place to live (even if you think the bonuses arenGÇÖt that great) is something we want to fight against GÇ£just cause they didnGÇÖt lift a finger to helpGÇ¥.
And for those of you like myself who are willing to break the law to get some killmails, you totally understand why increasing low sec activity (neutral or otherwise) is WAY more important than denying pilots outside the war some perks based on principle.
Bolded the important part Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Fleet Warpsujarento
State Protectorate Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:06:00 -
[175] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I wanted to speak for a moment about the GÇ£neutrals taking our benefitsGÇ¥ concerns. First, letGÇÖs look at the benefits being offered. Discount clones, discount brokers fees, etc. A few extra slots for manufacturing (which many people rightfully point out isnGÇÖt very useful). What neutrals CANGÇÖT do is obtain LP rewards, conquer plexes, fire upon faction warfare pilots without going GCC, etc.
I think itGÇÖs important to put these into context. Low sec has suffered for years now, with players almost universally demanding buffs across the board, extra incentives to live and work in a higher risk area. With the new upgrade system in place, it really means that these system rewards for FW sovereignty will be active in most systems fought over by FW pilots. It doesnGÇÖt matter who owns them, the residents will activate the benefits, and neutrals will enjoy the perks. The entire FW zone suddenly has incentives for high sec residents to enjoy low sec, with the added benefit that weGÇÖll likely be busy enough fighting each other that piracy should decline, much like it was less of an issue during the GÇ£golden yearsGÇ¥ of FW. When FW pilots have enough WTGÇÖs to shoot, theyGÇÖre much less likely to harm neutrals out of boredom.
Personally, I could care less of a neutral gets a half price clone without working for it, itGÇÖs really not a game-breaker for me or something I want to deny anyone just because they didnGÇÖt fight my war. I donGÇÖt really care if traders in lowsec pay half-price taxes and fees. I can only see this as a great thing. More activity in lowsec, whether they are neutrals or FW pilots, is universally a great thing. I think itGÇÖs important to ask ourselves whether the benefit of enhancing most of lowsec space in this manner and making it a more enticing place to live (even if you think the bonuses arenGÇÖt that great) is something we want to fight against GÇ£just cause they didnGÇÖt lift a finger to helpGÇ¥.
And for those of you like myself who are willing to break the law to get some killmails, you totally understand why increasing low sec activity (neutral or otherwise) is WAY more important than denying pilots outside the war some perks based on principle.
This is very disappointing. The whole time I've been thinking that you understood the big issues of this expansion, and then you post this. Very disappointing indeed.
|
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:08:00 -
[176] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I wanted to speak for a moment about the GÇ£neutrals taking our benefitsGÇ¥ concerns. First, letGÇÖs look at the benefits being offered. Discount clones, discount brokers fees, etc. A few extra slots for manufacturing (which many people rightfully point out isnGÇÖt very useful). What neutrals CANGÇÖT do is obtain LP rewards, conquer plexes, fire upon faction warfare pilots without going GCC, etc.
I think itGÇÖs important to put these into context. Low sec has suffered for years now, with players almost universally demanding buffs across the board, extra incentives to live and work in a higher risk area. With the new upgrade system in place, it really means that these system rewards for FW sovereignty will be active in most systems fought over by FW pilots. It doesnGÇÖt matter who owns them, the residents will activate the benefits, and neutrals will enjoy the perks. The entire FW zone suddenly has incentives for high sec residents to enjoy low sec, with the added benefit that weGÇÖll likely be busy enough fighting each other that piracy should decline, much like it was less of an issue during the GÇ£golden yearsGÇ¥ of FW. When FW pilots have enough WTGÇÖs to shoot, theyGÇÖre much less likely to harm neutrals out of boredom.
Personally, I could care less of a neutral gets a half price clone without working for it, itGÇÖs really not a game-breaker for me or something I want to deny anyone just because they didnGÇÖt fight my war. I donGÇÖt really care if traders in lowsec pay half-price taxes and fees. I can only see this as a great thing. More activity in lowsec, whether they are neutrals or FW pilots, is universally a great thing. I think itGÇÖs important to ask ourselves whether the benefit of enhancing most of lowsec space in this manner and making it a more enticing place to live (even if you think the bonuses arenGÇÖt that great) is something we want to fight against GÇ£just cause they didnGÇÖt lift a finger to helpGÇ¥.
And for those of you like myself who are willing to break the law to get some killmails, you totally understand why increasing low sec activity (neutral or otherwise) is WAY more important than denying pilots outside the war some perks based on principle.
This is very disappointing. The whole time I've been thinking that you understood the big issues of this expansion, and then you post this. Very disappointing indeed.
1) Militia alts such as yours cannot have an opinion
2) I think his post is 100% dead on, I am glad I gave you my sword
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2311
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:17:00 -
[177] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: 1. Attacking side is going to need 23/7 coverage to capture a system in a reasonable amount of time. If attackers are not active, the other side's afk plexing alts will grind away all of your gains. LP for plexing means there will be many afk defensive plexing alts available to clean up systems all day long.
2. The defenders get to reship in system, you're going to need to jump into another system to reship. Systems with no adjacent stations (like Rakapas, or Nisuwa+Notoras) are going to be a nearly impossible to win. Being active enough to swap out ships and win plexes is going to be a challenge.
Bottom Line: Lack of docking rights is going to make flipping a system more than one jump away from a friendly station very challenging if the other side puts up even a litle bit of a fight.
Some good points here. First, to address X GallentiusGÇÖ concerns that the attacker will need 23/7 coverage to take a system, because the LP incentives will guarantee aggressive defense of plexes. Some players are discovering on SiSi that in the new system, there is no LP payout for defensive plexing. One of the commmunityGÇÖs greatest concerns so far has the need for elasticity in the Faction Warfare system, and incentives for the underdog.
By limiting plexing payouts to those that are taking space, there exists a reward for those that are fighting from behind that is not granted to the winning team. If one faction steamrolls the other and owns all the systems, they also lose their ability to grind plexes for isk. They gain the benefits of the upgrade systems, but they canGÇÖt farm plex LP at that point, they can only run missions or kill invaders.
BolsterBomb wrote: I think if you fight "front line" battles you will lose out on the sovereignty. I believe there are better strategies that will help split the battles up and then combine for large engagements to ultimately flip the system (bunker bust)
The militia that cooperates the most will be supreme. Common goals = common rewards. The more I think about it the more excited I am for the new changes.
Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time. With plexing, breaking up into smaller squads and spreading out to hit several at the same time is superior to having one blob move to plexGÇÖs individually, weGÇÖve seen this plenty already in the current system, nothingGÇÖs changing there.
Lack of docking, for all its inconvenience, will do one thing for sure. The roaming gangs that attack the plexes in enemy space will be MUCH more likely to be smaller hit squads than large fleets, simply because its safer and faster to avoid the blob that everyone says will form up. FW gangs already do null sec roams for fun, and we donGÇÖt usually take a 30 man BS fleet to do it, for good reason. Lack of a place to dock and repair means that nimble fleets that can stay safe are much more appealing.
And thatGÇÖs precisely what Faction Warfare is supposed to encourage, small gang warfare instead of massive blobbing. I'm not defending the docking idea as a good one, I'm simply pointing out that there could be some positive side effects from it from a combat perspective that at least merit some *patience* to see how it affects PvP before declaring it a tragedy. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2311
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:32:00 -
[178] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote: This is very disappointing. The whole time I've been thinking that you understood the big issues of this expansion, and then you post this. Very disappointing indeed.
I'd be happy to hear about what you think I misunderstand about the big issues with this expansion.
If you'd like to go over it in detail, you can even convo me in-game, or send me a mail and I can give you my Skype info and we can chat about it.
Or just feel free to tell me here, doesnt matter to me.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:41:00 -
[179] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time. With plexing, breaking up into smaller squads and spreading out to hit several at the same time is superior to having one blob move to plexGÇÖs individually, weGÇÖve seen this plenty already in the current system, nothingGÇÖs changing there.
Lack of docking, for all its inconvenience, will do one thing for sure. The roaming gangs that attack the plexes in enemy space will be MUCH more likely to be smaller hit squads than large fleets, simply because its safer and faster to avoid the blob that everyone says will form up. FW gangs already do null sec roams for fun, and we donGÇÖt usually take a 30 man BS fleet to do it, for good reason. Lack of a place to dock and repair means that nimble fleets that can stay safe are much more appealing.
And thatGÇÖs precisely what Faction Warfare is supposed to encourage, small gang warfare instead of massive blobbing. I'm not defending the docking idea as a good one, I'm simply pointing out that there could be some positive side effects from it from a combat perspective that at least merit some *patience* to see how it affects PvP before declaring it a tragedy.
While you might be right that a small gangs might be better at plexing over a large area. With the not so thought out denial of docking, Huge blobs will be effective at deny docking in systems where an enemy bases out of.
After discussing these issues, it appears that a lot of my comrades will either move to a nearby non FW system, or leave FW all together. Thus reducing the participants of FW and the people who actually live there. So while you might think this docking idea encourages small gangs, it will result in 0.0 sov warfare, where the bigger blob wins.
Isn't this expansion supposed to bring more people into the FW area? Instead it is turning it into 0.0 sov lite.
Another way I can get around these supposed changes, as opposed to just going full pie, AND benefit from the changes, is just to drop Amarr Milita, and join the Gallente Milita. I can stay where I am, Minnmatar won't be able to deny me docking rights, and continue to shoot Minns as much as I'd like. |
Yogsoloth
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:41:00 -
[180] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Fleet Warpsujarento wrote: This is very disappointing. The whole time I've been thinking that you understood the big issues of this expansion, and then you post this. Very disappointing indeed.
I'd be happy to hear about what you think I misunderstand about the big issues with this expansion. If you'd like to go over it in detail, you can even convo me in-game, or send me a mail and I can give you my Skype info and we can chat about it. Or just feel free to tell me here, doesnt matter to me.
Recall Vote !!! |
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
386
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:44:00 -
[181] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time. With plexing, breaking up into smaller squads and spreading out to hit several at the same time is superior to having one blob move to plexGÇÖs individually, weGÇÖve seen this plenty already in the current system, nothingGÇÖs changing there. .
The amount of time it takes to flip a system is changing. This means the side that can form the bigger blob will be able to easilly undue anything these nimble fleets hope to accomplish.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Lack of docking, for all its inconvenience, will do one thing for sure. The roaming gangs that attack the plexes in enemy space will be MUCH more likely to be smaller hit squads than large fleets, simply because its safer and faster to avoid the blob that everyone says will form up. FW gangs already do null sec roams for fun, and we donGÇÖt usually take a 30 man BS fleet to do it, for good reason. Lack of a place to dock and repair means that nimble fleets that can stay safe are much more appealing.
And thatGÇÖs precisely what Faction Warfare is supposed to encourage, small gang warfare instead of massive blobbing. I'm not defending the docking idea as a good one, I'm simply pointing out that there could be some positive side effects from it from a combat perspective that at least merit some *patience* to see how it affects PvP before declaring it a tragedy.
Were you ever able to accomplish anything in those nimble fleets you took into null? Do you think those nimble small fleets that can't dock anywhere will ever be able accomplish anything of substance in faction war occupancy? If so, how do you picture that happening?
Given these long timers I just don't see how it will happen.
I picture an amarr fleet of destroyers will cap a few minor plexes in ardar before getting chased out and then decimated by a minmatar smartbombing BS fleet in Dal.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
172
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 17:50:00 -
[182] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Were you ever able to accomplish anything in those nimble fleets you took into null? Do you think those nimble small fleets that can't dock anywhere will ever be able accomplish anything of substance in faction war occupancy? If so, how do you picture that happening?
And with numbers being so lopsided they are, one side can send their own fast gang after the other fast gang while still outnumbering it and thus nothing comes out of it.
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Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
18
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Posted - 2012.05.04 17:53:00 -
[183] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time. With plexing, breaking up into smaller squads and spreading out to hit several at the same time is superior to having one blob move to plexGÇÖs individually, weGÇÖve seen this plenty already in the current system, nothingGÇÖs changing there. .
The amount of time it takes to flip a system is changing. This means the side that can form the bigger blob will be able to easilly undue anything these nimble fleets hope to accomplish.
Not 100% true. When we started taking Caldari space, we found that we couldn't really hold systems more than 3 jumps away from our main bases. People just get too tired of defending systems that far away and those systems are pretty meaningless. The dedicated plexers just couldn't defend all that space. Since their is no LP for defensive plexing, there will not be an influx of defensive plexers unless you target the system people live in. The real test will be how long it will really take to flip a system and if you can distract the few dedicated plexers on each side with a diversional assault long enough. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
77
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:02:00 -
[184] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:...Some good points here. First, to address X GallentiusGÇÖ concerns that the attacker will need 23/7 coverage to take a system, because the LP incentives will guarantee aggressive defense of plexes... Why do blobs/blocs/nap-lists exist do you reckon? No one in their right mind (ie. not insane/psychotic/masochistic) enjoys losing their ships/fights again and again even if said losses are redeemed 100%. We 'huddle up' in blobs/blocs/nap-lists mainly to avoid losing streaks going on forever, it is the old flock/pack mentality (older than civilization itself) so how the hell can you possibly think that it suddenly stops applying?
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:They gain the benefits of the upgrade systems, but they canGÇÖt farm plex LP at that point, they can only run missions or kill invaders... We have had two plus years of people getting more than enough from farming missions, so much so that missions for non-farmers have become useless .. unless missions are nerfed into the ground (which is never going to happen) the loss of what amounts to an extra income source will go entirely unnoticed to a dominating side.
If missions are nerfed severely, then my guess is that we will have corps joining their alts into opposing milita - spend afk time defensive plexing and reaping LP with mains (think the week long Caldari standings-abuse showcase a few years back) ... we players (read: everyone but me, obviously ) will and consistently do abuse the slightest gap in CCP's train of thought and this coming expansion has gaps large enough to fit my Providence through!
BolsterBomb wrote: I think if you fight "front line" battles you will lose out on the sovereignty. I believe there are better strategies that will help split the battles up and then combine for large engagements to ultimately flip the system (bunker bust)
[quote=Hans Jagerblitzen]Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time... This is assuming that CCP manages to balance the plexes to a point where solo/duo capping becomes impossible .. current modus operandi that I have observed (both sides) when numbers are in ones favour is to have main group/gang/fleet kill initial troublesome spawn/manage aggro and then leave capping to redundant pilot/ship freeing up remainder to suppress/kill any attempt to stop it. So you are right, nothing is changing here. Raw numbers will trump everything else with only one-shot gimmicks (like the Gallente smartbomb thingie on YouTube) breaking the trend.
Do you really want to participate in FW when you are rewarded for, nay required to multi-account/dual-box just to compete?
Still missing data, but had to point out the lapses in your logic, main whines to come when I have digested the promised blogs .. naturally hope I won't have to, but CCP has not exactly shown that they have any idea of what the hell FW is and seem to go by what their precious metrics/models tell them.
PS: Hans, we all know and love the mad scientist CCP Dr.EyjoG and his breakdown of the market numbers .. but what CCP could really use is an anthropologist, psychologist or similar to help them come to terms with that most elusive creature called human nature. Please forward my suggestion through channels, thank you |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
386
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:03:00 -
[185] - Quote
Damar Rocarion wrote:Cearain wrote:Were you ever able to accomplish anything in those nimble fleets you took into null? Do you think those nimble small fleets that can't dock anywhere will ever be able accomplish anything of substance in faction war occupancy? If so, how do you picture that happening? And with numbers being so lopsided they are, one side can send their own fast gang after the other fast gang while still outnumbering it and thus nothing comes out of it.
Yeah lets say we are in dessies doing offensive minor plexes and they send gang of 2xs the destroyers. Well then we can get in the cruisers we had ready fit and docked up in the system and start doing medium plexes. DOh! wait wait...
Then we can. Uhm. Well we can. I got it. We can run back to our base and dock up losing a few ships along the way. Oh well, I'm sure we will "adapt" and "figure something" out.
I mean white noise adapted to these sorts of null sec mechanics when they had to fight outnumbered right?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
387
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:11:00 -
[186] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Cearain wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time. With plexing, breaking up into smaller squads and spreading out to hit several at the same time is superior to having one blob move to plexGÇÖs individually, weGÇÖve seen this plenty already in the current system, nothingGÇÖs changing there. .
The amount of time it takes to flip a system is changing. This means the side that can form the bigger blob will be able to easilly undue anything these nimble fleets hope to accomplish. Not 100% true. When we started taking Caldari space, we found that we couldn't really hold systems more than 3 jumps away from our main bases. People just get too tired of defending systems that far away and those systems are pretty meaningless. The dedicated plexers just couldn't defend all that space. Since their is no LP for defensive plexing, there will not be an influx of defensive plexers unless you target the system people live in. The real test will be how long it will really take to flip a system and if you can distract the few dedicated plexers on each side with a diversional assault long enough.
Good point. I am not sure how the no lp for defensive plexing will work out. Will the defending side let the other side flip a system or two so they can then farm the lp? Will both sides greedilly farm the the offensive plexes and pass eachother like 2 ships in the night? I agree this is hard to know how this will work out in practice and whether this will actually yield more plex fights. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
387
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:16:00 -
[187] - Quote
One thing I don't know is lets say Minmatar take over all of amarr space so amarr can no longer dock in fw space. Will the minmatar still be able to get any missions at all? The missions send you to systems that the other side has sov in. Now we are winning sov not just occupancy.
Its not feasible to find this out from sisi.
If they can still get missions then they will be able to run them in systems we can't even dock in. If they can't get missions then they will be able to leave one system to he amarr and they will know all their missions will send them to that one system. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:25:00 -
[188] - Quote
I feel like Im talking to a wall sometimes guys. For a moment have a positive outlook. Its easy to see the negative and not see what it could bring as positives.
I will spell out the offensive tactics on how this will work.
Your blobs will not work with flipping systems until it gets to the bunker bust.
Ex: Gal vs Caldari US TZ
Nis -3 days
50 man gallente blob was sighted. Caldari had about 20ish "sorta combined" people, we left.
Yes the 50 man blob will be able to wreck havock, but here is the thing. Caldari say FU blob and go run to another system.
Gallente are blobing their systems but the nimble caldari fleet is able to contest 2-3 systems before the blob can retaliate. What happens, the blob then deblobs into mini blobs to protect / hit various system.
By the gals deblobing there is still 50 active pilots running around but now they are 5 groups of 10 which the Caldari can fight.
Your statements that the blob will be able to do system denial is 100% accurate, if you want to park your blob there. Remember if you park the blob there are many other systems to take. If we hit and run we dont necessarily have to hold the system.
By taking the plexes we are getting LP , we get LP for the kills, and we get LP for flipping the system. If my option is to run a mission or flip a system with pvp while running from the blob, Ill take that.
I am not worried about the caldari having no home system to park y toys in. You wont be able to own 100% of every system and neither will we.
The system will always cater to the underdog because the underdog will have more options to gain LP. Missioners will be too lazy to move so everything balances itself out.
Again this is the big part you are missing, the only way a faction can be backed into a corner is if the faction does not work together.
Thats the thing you guys are missing. We have the numbers to fight you in any TZ. The problem is the coordination, which is being fixed.
US TZ Squids - The4, Squids, Proj Cerb, 22nd, DCE, and more. Thats over 90 active pilots that are pvp pilots. You will not be able to blob out coordinated attacks.
Welcome to the real FW
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Jame Jarl Retief
Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne
47
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:31:00 -
[189] - Quote
Cearain wrote:One thing I don't know is lets say Minmatar take over all of amarr space so amarr can no longer dock in fw space. Will the minmatar still be able to get any missions at all? The missions send you to systems that the other side has sov in. Now we are winning sov not just occupancy.
Its not feasible to find this out from sisi.
If they can still get missions then they will be able to run them in systems we can't even dock in. If they can't get missions then they will be able to leave one system to he amarr and they will know all their missions will send them to that one system.
Yep, that's an interesting question. Though it also depends on just how badly the FW missions are getting nerfed. I mean during FanFest they said you'll get most LP for killing, medium for flipping and least for missions. At least that's what I remember (could be wrong).
Plus they said they wanted to stop the while "L4 FW in a bomber" stuff by putting in Sleeper AI instead of regular AI. Might make running missions a lot less effective. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
387
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:32:00 -
[190] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:I feel like Im talking to a wall sometimes guys. For a moment have a positive outlook. Its easy to see the negative and not see what it could bring as positives.
I will spell out the offensive tactics on how this will work.
Your blobs will not work with flipping systems until it gets to the bunker bust.
Ex: Gal vs Caldari US TZ
Nis -3 days
50 man gallente blob was sighted. Caldari had about 20ish "sorta combined" people, we left.
Yes the 50 man blob will be able to wreck havock, but here is the thing. Caldari say FU blob and go run to another system.
Gallente are blobing their systems but the nimble caldari fleet is able to contest 2-3 systems before the blob can retaliate. What happens, the blob then deblobs into mini blobs to protect / hit various system.....
Why would the blob care that Caldari "contests" 2-3 systems and deblob? They will have forty hours to go over and deal with that system. Why not just keep taking systems right next to eachother so that if the caldari do try anything they can all warp in and blob them?
The blobs will be the only entities that can finish the job. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:39:00 -
[191] - Quote
Cearain wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:I feel like Im talking to a wall sometimes guys. For a moment have a positive outlook. Its easy to see the negative and not see what it could bring as positives.
I will spell out the offensive tactics on how this will work.
Your blobs will not work with flipping systems until it gets to the bunker bust.
Ex: Gal vs Caldari US TZ
Nis -3 days
50 man gallente blob was sighted. Caldari had about 20ish "sorta combined" people, we left.
Yes the 50 man blob will be able to wreck havock, but here is the thing. Caldari say FU blob and go run to another system.
Gallente are blobing their systems but the nimble caldari fleet is able to contest 2-3 systems before the blob can retaliate. What happens, the blob then deblobs into mini blobs to protect / hit various system.....
Why would the blob care that Caldari "contests" 2-3 systems and deblob? They will have forty hours to go over and deal with that system. Why not just keep taking systems right next to eachother so that if the caldari do try anything they can all warp in and blob them? The blobs will be the only entities that can finish the job.
Because if the blob does not maintain smaller defensive forces they will lose their systems. Its very system blob goes forward smaller forces go around them. Remember the blob is not going to be a consistent 40 hr blob. Its not like star trek where the whole fleet just cruises forward together never ending....
Also the 2-3 could turn to 10-15 if the blob doesnt disband to deal with it.
While your taking 40 meaningless system you have now will have to go back and undue all the work we did on your systems.
Blob mentality will not work for this new system. it will only work when making a strong push for a specific goal. Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
172
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:47:00 -
[192] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:People just get too tired of defending systems that far away and those systems are pretty meaningless. The dedicated plexers just couldn't defend all that space.
You do understand that people have defended space so far for no reward, aside from caldari COSMOS grinds. Main reason dedicated plexers do what they do is simple. They hate each others gut so much they are willing to put up with that ****. Best example is of course yours Black Onyx Society which is basicly one guy with 7 alts and his sole reason for doing it is because he hates me.
He also likes to go apeshit in local whenever someone harasses his atron alts but that's another story.
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2312
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:55:00 -
[193] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Good point. I am not sure how the no lp for defensive plexing will work out. Will the defending side let the other side flip a system or two so they can then farm the lp? Will both sides greedilly farm the the offensive plexes and pass eachother like 2 ships in the night? I agree this is hard to know how this will work out in practice and whether this will actually yield more plex fights.
If you recall from the Fan Fest presentation, the concept is for LP to not just come from thin air, and thus be farmable. LP is intended to be stolen from the defender's IHUB.
Thus, when an attacker takes a plex he's hurting the enemy in a tangible, real way, every single time, whether or not the system is eventually won or not. That way there's incentive to plex even if you don't think you can win the entire system, because you can still hurt the system owner and affect his pocketbook.
Now, this raises all kinds of questions about the specific details, I'm not sure exactly what the mechanic is on SiSi at this point in time, but that's the idea CCP's running with.
There shouldn't be any real incentive for "LP trading" between alts as a result of this mechanic. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:08:00 -
[194] - Quote
Damar Rocarion wrote:Andre Vauban wrote:People just get too tired of defending systems that far away and those systems are pretty meaningless. The dedicated plexers just couldn't defend all that space. You do understand that people have defended space so far for no reward, aside from caldari COSMOS grinds. Main reason dedicated plexers do what they do is simple. They hate each others gut so much they are willing to put up with that ****. Hell, one of them (who supposedly is a father of three daughters) recently infiltrated our voice comms and delivered a message to me, which was about half a minute rant of "f..ggot, c.nt, ba.tard" untill I laughed and muted him. Great example for your offspring by the way. But I digress. Best example is of course yours Black Onyx Society which is basicly one guy with 7 alts and his sole reason for doing it is because he hates me. He also likes to go apeshit in local whenever someone harasses his atron alts but that's another story.
Yes, I understand that there are the very few dedicated plexers doing the vast majority of the plexing. However, those few people cannot deplex systems that you are actively plexing with a small gang without backup from the pvpers. Those pvpers are currently very happy to come help for the hope of a fight. If there is no fight, they leave. If there was LP for defensive plexing, they would be willing to do that and stick around. Since there is no new reward, there will not be any new defensive plexers. The current defensive plexers just cannot defend the entire warzone by themselves.
Here is how it will work: Dedicated plexer: "WTs are coming into my plex in system XYZ" PVPers "XYZ is very close to me, on my way" or PVPers "XYZ is too far away. I'm going to fly all the way up there and get no fight nor any LP. I'm going to ignore you now and go back to something that involves making isk or blowing something up."
The attacking side will always have more plexers since there is incentive to plex. As long as the number of dedicated/diehard plexers doesn't change much and stay in relative balance, we should see a pretty stable warfront with neither side able to really hold large amounts of conquered systems.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
387
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:14:00 -
[195] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: Good point. I am not sure how the no lp for defensive plexing will work out. Will the defending side let the other side flip a system or two so they can then farm the lp? Will both sides greedilly farm the the offensive plexes and pass eachother like 2 ships in the night? I agree this is hard to know how this will work out in practice and whether this will actually yield more plex fights.
If you recall from the Fan Fest presentation, the concept is for LP to not just come from thin air, and thus be farmable. LP is intended to be stolen from the defender's IHUB. Thus, when an attacker takes a plex he's hurting the enemy in a tangible, real way, every single time, whether or not the system is eventually won or not. That way there's incentive to plex even if you don't think you can win the entire system, because you can still hurt the system owner and affect his pocketbook. Now, this raises all kinds of questions about the specific details, I'm not sure exactly what the mechanic is on SiSi at this point in time, but that's the idea CCP's running with. There shouldn't be any real incentive for "LP trading" between alts as a result of this mechanic.
Ok that makes sense. When I was on sisi I ran a offensive plex in tararan and received @17,000 lp. Are you saying that 17,000 lp came directly out of some sort of minmatar lp bank? Or does it only take from the minmatar if they decide to contribute to the system?
So for example if minmatar gain sov in tararan through plexing but never "pay in lp" for any upgrades the amarr would still get some lp for running offensive plexes in tararan right?
I have a hunch we will need to wait for the dev blog on this due to nda issues.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
387
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:21:00 -
[196] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Cearain wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:I feel like Im talking to a wall sometimes guys. For a moment have a positive outlook. Its easy to see the negative and not see what it could bring as positives.
I will spell out the offensive tactics on how this will work.
Your blobs will not work with flipping systems until it gets to the bunker bust.
Ex: Gal vs Caldari US TZ
Nis -3 days
50 man gallente blob was sighted. Caldari had about 20ish "sorta combined" people, we left.
Yes the 50 man blob will be able to wreck havock, but here is the thing. Caldari say FU blob and go run to another system.
Gallente are blobing their systems but the nimble caldari fleet is able to contest 2-3 systems before the blob can retaliate. What happens, the blob then deblobs into mini blobs to protect / hit various system.....
Why would the blob care that Caldari "contests" 2-3 systems and deblob? They will have forty hours to go over and deal with that system. Why not just keep taking systems right next to eachother so that if the caldari do try anything they can all warp in and blob them? The blobs will be the only entities that can finish the job. Because if the blob does not maintain smaller defensive forces they will lose their systems. Its very system blob goes forward smaller forces go around them. Remember the blob is not going to be a consistent 40 hr blob. Its not like star trek where the whole fleet just cruises forward together never ending.... Also the 2-3 could turn to 10-15 if the blob doesnt disband to deal with it. While your taking 40 meaningless system you have now will have to go back and undue all the work we did on your systems. Blob mentality will not work for this new system. it will only work when making a strong push for a specific goal.
As long as the blob stops you before 40 hours is up, unduing your work is easilly done with an alt in a frigate. Why? Because it is just running a defensive plex in systems you can not dock in. Once the larger side has mopped up the area it will be easy to patrol.
I don't think we need to look to star trek. I think we can just see how it is done in null sec.
Now if the time to flip a system unopposed was just @ 1 hour instead of @ 40 hours then yeah I agree the blob would need to split up. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:26:00 -
[197] - Quote
Cearain wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:Cearain wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:I feel like Im talking to a wall sometimes guys. For a moment have a positive outlook. Its easy to see the negative and not see what it could bring as positives.
I will spell out the offensive tactics on how this will work.
Your blobs will not work with flipping systems until it gets to the bunker bust.
Ex: Gal vs Caldari US TZ
Nis -3 days
50 man gallente blob was sighted. Caldari had about 20ish "sorta combined" people, we left.
Yes the 50 man blob will be able to wreck havock, but here is the thing. Caldari say FU blob and go run to another system.
Gallente are blobing their systems but the nimble caldari fleet is able to contest 2-3 systems before the blob can retaliate. What happens, the blob then deblobs into mini blobs to protect / hit various system.....
Why would the blob care that Caldari "contests" 2-3 systems and deblob? They will have forty hours to go over and deal with that system. Why not just keep taking systems right next to eachother so that if the caldari do try anything they can all warp in and blob them? The blobs will be the only entities that can finish the job. Because if the blob does not maintain smaller defensive forces they will lose their systems. Its very system blob goes forward smaller forces go around them. Remember the blob is not going to be a consistent 40 hr blob. Its not like star trek where the whole fleet just cruises forward together never ending.... Also the 2-3 could turn to 10-15 if the blob doesnt disband to deal with it. While your taking 40 meaningless system you have now will have to go back and undue all the work we did on your systems. Blob mentality will not work for this new system. it will only work when making a strong push for a specific goal. As long as the blob stops you before 40 hours is up, unduing your work is easilly done with an alt in a altron. Why? Because it is just running a defensive plex in systems you can not dock in. Once the larger side has mopped up the area it will be easy to patrol. I don't think we need to look to star trek. I think we can just see how it is done in null sec. Now if the time to flip a system unopposed was just @ 1 hour instead of @ 40 hours then yeah I agree the blob would need to split up.
So from you logic, once we assault the plex you think that we wont keep assaulting or make sure it isnt left for dead? You do realize there is more then 1 tz right?
Every argument you make from this blob warfare mentality just is nonsensical. The idea that there are multiple time zones and that militia can cooperate at set goals undoes your entire argument.
The blob will only work for that final push, however if you never get to that stage it wont matter the size of your blob, there is too much that needs to be done for one solid fleet to accomplish. Ecspecially if one militia wants to setup a forward base, maybe 3 systems are hit over and over and whichever one that militia can push the furthest becomes the new forward base. There is simply so much more then just going into a 0.0 system and knocking out the Sov Unit.
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2313
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:43:00 -
[198] - Quote
Schalac wrote:I think that if this system does go live though they should reset eveything. Then make it so that you have to gain territory in succesion. None of this grabing Tama and/or OMS right off the bat territory gain. You come in through a regional gate and capture the system, then move onto the next. This would force better fights and actually cause there to be a front line.
I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.
As it stands right now, occupancy is a 6-7 hour exercise, and flips every day all over the place, and is meaningless. It's really difficult to say that the current ownership is something worth protecting, especially since I can guarantee that if they DONT do a global reset of Sov there will be mass plexing as we approach the release date, the factions with the greatest numbers right now will own all the systems, which will then become much more permanent.
I'd hate to see this whole new war system start out with one side hideously defeated either practically (from all the penalties) or morale-wise and simply want to quit the war, or quit the game. By resetting Sov, everyone has a fair chance, and if one faction gets crushed after that, its their own fault, not the fault of the mechanical changes.
CCP can't make all the factional enrollment numbers equal, and they can't make some factions get along better than others, but they can give every faction an equal fighting chance at the start of the new war. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
387
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 19:47:00 -
[199] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:
So from you logic, once we assault the plex you think that we wont keep assaulting or make sure it isnt left for dead? You do realize there is more then 1 tz right?
It will take you 40 hours. If at anytime the blob comes in to drive you off they will then be able to have an alt in a cheap ship orbit the button in systems you can not even dock in while they continue to look for pvp with thier mains.
BolsterBomb wrote:[ Every argument you make from this blob warfare mentality just is nonsensical. The idea that there are multiple time zones and that militia can cooperate at set goals undoes your entire argument.
The blob will only work for that final push, however if you never get to that stage it wont matter the size of your blob, there is too much that needs to be done for one solid fleet to accomplish. Ecspecially if one militia wants to setup a forward base, maybe 3 systems are hit over and over and whichever one that militia can push the furthest becomes the new forward base. There is simply so much more then just going into a 0.0 system and knocking out the Sov Unit.
You do realize that what you claim is impossible, and nonsensical for me to think, was already done right?
The caldari captured all the systems in their front. They did this even though there was no advantage at all to capping systems! Think about that.
Now they added incentives to cap systems. This will only increase the desire to accomplish this despite the grind.
Now they made it so you can't dock in systems you lose. This will only make it easier to mop up after one side gains an edge.
What change happened that you think helps the side with fewer active pilots? The only one I know of is that you get no lp for doing defensive plexes. Do you get standings? I don't know. But since it is very easy to have an alt run a defensive plex, especially when the enemy can't even dock there, I don't see this as a big deal.
The majority of these changes just gives more incentive for the larger side to continue the grind (lp bonuses) and hurts the underdog from being able to fight back (no docking)
Plus at least in the amarr minmatar front there are allot of bottlenecks. If you take a smaller fleet into systems you can not dock in it will be easy to get caught. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
191
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:10:00 -
[200] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Some good points here. First, to address X GallentiusGÇÖ concerns that the attacker will need 23/7 coverage to take a system, because the LP incentives will guarantee aggressive defense of plexes. Some players are discovering on SiSi that in the new system, there is no LP payout for defensive plexing. One of the commmunityGÇÖs greatest concerns so far has the need for elasticity in the Faction Warfare system, and incentives for the underdog.
By limiting plexing payouts to those that are taking space, there exists a reward for those that are fighting from behind that is not granted to the winning team. If one faction steamrolls the other and owns all the systems, they also lose their ability to grind plexes for isk. They gain the benefits of the upgrade systems, but they canGÇÖt farm plex LP at that point, they can only run missions or kill invaders.
[
At least it will be less challenging to take a system than I thought. It will still be pretty difficult, but with the fiscal incentives for the attacker, it might balance out. We'll see. |
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
191
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:14:00 -
[201] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.
I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:18:00 -
[202] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote: Meaning: if we don't fight except in 1-2 systems, we won't have far to jump. Played a lot of RvB, have you?
Missed the point did we? My point is that you won't have to go 10 jumps just to find someone else to pew because they'll be close by. People who are bitching about casual pvp don't have a leg to stand on if you only have to go 2-3 jumps to find someone to shoot. Players today fly dozens of jumps just to find someone to pew, so this entire line of argument is complete bullshit.
Quote: Meaning: yeah, sure, you've enumerated many actual reasons that the change is dumb, and I've neither assaulted those reasons nor really thought through my single counter to it that you've already attacked --but really, even though I want one thing and you want the opposite of that thing, the issue is that you are trying to bend everyone else to your preference of play. Not me, though! No bending here! No preferences here! My position is completely neutral and your position is radical and strange.
And what reasons are those? That it'll be hard cause you might actually have to care about where you put your stuff and put a little thought into your play instead of just docking up when **** gets hard? Please. All I see is a lot of whining because people want this to be fight club, ignoring the fact that FW population keeps getting smaller and smaller, and we need to inject some meaning into the system so that people actually care enough to fight.
Quote: No, LP for plexing does that. Station lockout makes people move their ****. Look: station lockout is probably coming, and 90 people in Amarr militia just finished not caring about two systems that just went vulnerable. Actual station lockout - outside of the one system they have all their stuff in, if it's still a lowsec system (why Kamela and not Tuomuta, which is one jump away?) - won't make them care more than imminent station lockout.
LP for plexing seems to only be applying to offensive plexing. So if you actually want people to shoot at, you need some reason for people to defensively plex. If you get locked out of station and can't access your stuff, that's a pretty powerful incentive to stop the enemy from running plexes.
Quote: No, that's the conversation you want to have. You want to hear people whining that it'll be tooooo haaaaard, because it's a hell of a lot easier to say HTFU than to read and understand and reply to the arguments and scenarios that have been presented to you. Me, I expect station lockout to come, and I know exactly what I'm going to do about it, and the result will be that the alleged point of it will be completely defeated. We'll all adapt, and the post-adaptation world will be worse for this specific feature in the specific ways that we've said, but then FW won't die thanks to everything else about Inferno, and then you can come back and say, hey, what chicken littles those guys were, right? And now everyone set your alarm clocks, because this neutral POS that we'll all get a faction hit for attacking will go out of reinforcement at...
First of all, alarm clock ops are a result of RF timers, not anything inherent in territorial controls. I hate RF timers with a passion, I like the way it is now that you actually have to keep up with things yourself and intervene before the **** hits the fan. Second, no one is going to kick you out of FW if you don't want to participate in territorial warfare. You don't have to base in the front line systems, you don't have to be constantly worried about your stuff being locked out. What you all are bitching about is that you can't do that with every single system in the FW area, which was unrealistic in the first place. You want to be able to do whatever you want in game and have no consequences. To that I say, tough ****. Deal with your own choices, if you want to live near the frontline, deal with the consequences. You won't even be penalized that much for living off the beaten track.
I'm well familiar with the Caldari/Gallente area thank you very much, there are plenty of enclave systems or high sec systems that either side can base out of if they actually did lose all their systems. As for Minnie space, I'm sure you all will find a way.
I will say that CCP needs to make it so there are diminishing returns for the winning side and increased incentives for the losing side, so that it isn't completely hopeless if one side really does dominate. But I think the result will not nearly be so one sided. A dedicated gang of a few players managed to hold back entire plexing efforts on both sides, numbers are not the be all and end all of occupancy warfare. If some of you actually participated in it, you'd know that, but instead you just ***** and whine cause you might actually have to learn some new mechanics. I am completely unsympathetic. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
387
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:34:00 -
[203] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.
I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back.
I tend to agree with X Gallentius. The only reason I would think they should consider resetting the map is because they are just not correcting known bugs with the plexing mechanic. But that has pretty much always been the case.
Even if they reset the map I am moving my **** out of fw space anyway. I think resetting the map just delays the inevitable where the larger side will quickly dominate. I say the quicker ccp can see the stupidity of this system the better.
However I bet they will reset the map. They want to delay that inevitable conclusion as much as possible.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:38:00 -
[204] - Quote
Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.
I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back. I tend to agree with X Gallentius. The only reason I would think they should consider resetting the map is because they are just not correcting known bugs with the plexing mechanic. But that has pretty much always been the case. Even if they reset the map I am moving my **** out of fw space anyway. I think resetting the map just delays the inevitable where the larger side will quickly dominate. I say the quicker ccp can see the stupidity of this system the better. However I bet they will reset the map. They want to delay that inevitable conclusion as much as possible.
Because blob warefare pawns all amirite Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
191
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:40:00 -
[205] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Because blob warefare pawns all amirite Don't hate us because we have more friends.
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BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:42:00 -
[206] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:Because blob warefare pawns all amirite Don't hate us because we have more friends.
I thought you were my friend XG Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
387
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:45:00 -
[207] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.
I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back. I tend to agree with X Gallentius. The only reason I would think they should consider resetting the map is because they are just not correcting known bugs with the plexing mechanic. But that has pretty much always been the case. Even if they reset the map I am moving my **** out of fw space anyway. I think resetting the map just delays the inevitable where the larger side will quickly dominate. I say the quicker ccp can see the stupidity of this system the better. However I bet they will reset the map. They want to delay that inevitable conclusion as much as possible. Because blob warefare pawns all amirite
It will after these changes. Now that I answered your question can you answer the questions I asked you a few posts back?
"You do realize that what you claim is impossible, and nonsensical for me to think, was already done right?
The caldari captured all the systems in their front. They did this even though there was no advantage at all to capping systems! Think about that.
Now they added incentives to cap systems. This will only increase the desire to accomplish this despite the grind.
Now they made it so you can't dock in systems you lose. This will only make it easier to mop up after one side gains an edge.
What change happened that you think helps the side with fewer active pilots? The only one I know of is that you get no lp for doing defensive plexes. Do you get standings? I don't know. But since it is very easy to have an alt run a defensive plex, especially when the enemy can't even dock there, I don't see this as a big deal.
The majority of these changes just gives more incentive for the larger side to continue the grind (lp bonuses) and hurts the underdog from being able to fight back (no docking)
Plus at least in the amarr minmatar front there are allot of bottlenecks. If you take a smaller fleet into systems you can not dock in it will be easy to get caught." Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Asthariye
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:47:00 -
[208] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.
I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back.
Also agreeing with X Gallentius here. A reset would invalidate all the work done to flip systems in preparation for this patch that I know all the militias have been doing, as well as force everyone currently living in a system that doesn't originally belong to their faction to move, arbitrarily and artificially, through no fault of their own, no matter how hard they've fought for it. This patch is meant to make FW better, not deliver a soundly demotivating kick in the teeth to the people who've spent the last three years keeping a deeply broken feature alive.
|
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 20:51:00 -
[209] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
What change happened that you think helps the side with fewer active pilots? "
I think in that entire non nonsensical reasoning there is one question so I think I managed to pick it out?
Nothing, the smaller force can easily do in the current system what they will in the new. The point is now all current pilots have the incentive to go do it. Previously we would take a smaller roam and avoid the blob and go fight equal sized fleets.
What do you expect to occur. The other thing you are forgetting in your entire thought process is
NOW THERE IS A REASON TO HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER
So now 4 small fleets of 10 = 40 people
Those 40 people can no coordinate attacks. I dont understand what you are missing.
4 fleets of 10 organized working together pvpers will do more damage then a blob. Sure take all your people into our home system, and while you do that we will cap yours as well. You cant just resort to blob warefare here.
It isnt well lets drive into PLs system and try to knock stuff out while our crap is 50 jumps in the other direction. It isnt well lets put an SBU here and then just defend it with a huge blob. Blob warefare works in 00 because whoever has the larger fleet can force you out of the system. In this system a smaller fleet can force you out while the blob is being lemmings.
Its not that complicated. Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Marga Vhiran
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:26:00 -
[210] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.
I think this is a terrible idea. Eve is predicated on the sandbox. Arbitrarily nullifying something that players have been working towards for weeks or months compromises the sandbox. Admittedly system distribution can be lopsided, but that means that the side with fewer systems will be concentrated, and the side with more systems will be spread more thinly.
Eve is not a game in which you are guaranteed equal fights all the time. Sometimes you start in a bad position, and that's what makes this game great. You adapt, you fight back, and you survive. Compromising the sandbox to try to put everyone equal footing is a bad idea. |
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Shalee Lianne
Imperial Outlaws
72
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:30:00 -
[211] - Quote
lol all the Gallente and Minmatar think it's a bad idea to reset Sov after Inferno for FW. Jeeze, wonder why that is. http://amarrian.blogspot.com/ -á~ Roleplay blog.http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2315
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:31:00 -
[212] - Quote
BTW everyone, I'm going to be writing a blog post this weekend to go over all these things and put them into some context. I'll talk a bit more about the Sov reset issue, pros / cons, and talk about issues of fairness and elasticity in the new war. Stay tuned! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Asthariye
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:35:00 -
[213] - Quote
That'd be good, Hans, but keep listening here as well, please. I can't emphasise enough how bad an idea a reset is in my opinion.
And Shalee - I do see what you're getting at, honestly I do. But the playing field has been level in the lead up to this patch - the prospect of getting all of our stuff locked into a system isn't one any of us like, and we've all been spending the time since it was announced dealing with it as best we can. Resetting now would be like refunding everyone who bought a Dramiel right before they got nerfed because it wouldn't be fair - that's not Eve. When a ship gets nerfed, people who bought them don't get refunded, and people who speculated right get rich. That's how it is. This is the same thing. |
Loryanna
The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide.
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:39:00 -
[214] - Quote
Resetting the systems goes against everything that EvE stands for. EvE is about creating a continous history that stands up to scrutinisation regardless of how the various iterations of the rules have effected it. An etch-a-sketch end-of-the-world move for 'fairness' would destroy the history we have worked so hard to forge. As well as this, it would be deeply unfair on the Minmatar Alliances that have worked very hard to base themselves within what was once enemy territory. Our ships, our PI, our POSs, our entire infrastructure is built around our current location. Forcing us to move 2.5weeks before patch day is like punishing us for winning the game.
Resetting the system is a truly awful idea and I would be appaulled if was even considered let alone implemented. |
Almity
Imperial Outlaws
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:41:00 -
[215] - Quote
If you want to look at these changes from LP/isk why would I go do a plex in a highly active area when I could run up metro and cap a few before anyone even knew what I was doing? Get my LP risk free and make Sasa go decontest it after I go to bed. Same thing the next day and over and over.
From a combat point of view I see no good at all from these changes. If you expect to see more small fights you are wrong. Why would someone who is out trying to make LP bother fighting? They will see you come into the plex and just warp out and go two systems over. Add in no docking and you will have a blob camping gates. For those of us who want a fight it will just be longer tines to reship and repair. How does this help the small scale PVP?
The sweeping Minmatar victory is in your grasps Hans! A few more tweeks and it will be yours.... |
Kuan Yida
Huang Yinglong White-Lotus
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:50:00 -
[216] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Also guys think about it. Everyone left FW, ti's dead. it's current members *me included i only left yesterday to get into a new corp after finals week*
Mom, you left without even saying goodbye? BTW, I'm still there and I'm not dead yet.
|
Desra Mascani
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:56:00 -
[217] - Quote
Uh. That would be stupid. Right now, people are bleeding ships and their RL time in preparation for the changes, fighting over systems like crazy to secure positions and somebody would like to reset and make all that effort in vain? WTF is wrong with you people? |
Shepard Book
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
60
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:58:00 -
[218] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:BTW everyone, I'm going to be writing a blog post this weekend to go over all these things and put them into some context. I'll talk a bit more about the Sov reset issue, pros / cons, and talk about issues of fairness and elasticity in the new war. Stay tuned!
Fairness in war? Really? |
Annah Kitheran
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 22:03:00 -
[219] - Quote
Honestly, I am dissapointed to hear this suggested in any serious way. We watched the same fanfest stream as everyone else and I'll admit we worried, I think everyone in FW did a little bit. But we did what we have always done and decided that rather than move all our stuff to hi-sec in preparation we were going to work our collective butts to hold on to the system where we have lived for over a year. We made a plan, we enacted said plan. As a result of our militia's superior internal communication and co-operation and our forward planning we are "winning".
To echo Shalee somewhat ironically, "lol all the amarr who couldn't be bothered to plan or fight think it'd be great if CCP made the consequences of their inaction go away." I understand you feel hard done by, but in the circumstances you had all the same information we had, we reacted differently; that is EVE. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 22:13:00 -
[220] - Quote
Schalac wrote:Quote:2. There are 5 levels of discounts for a number of different things - if you own the system and have upgraded it - Medical clone discounts (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50% discount) - Number of assembly lines increases by 1 for every level - All broker fees discounted (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50%) - NOTE: You only get these discounts in the FW system - ADDENDUM: These discounts apply to neutrals not in FW
The bolded part doesn't make sense. So do you or don't you? I think it would be a dumb idea to give neutrals a piece of what other people fought for.
I agree, whats the reasoning behind giving neutrals access to discounts? They shouldn't be affected by the discounts WE pay for. That and all the pirate FW Corps out there would atleast deter them from even entering FW space.
As long as they can dock, they can still be used as alts for direct opposing faction trade hub runs, which is aboutthe only reason I can think of. |
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Andiedeath
Sefem Velox
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 22:26:00 -
[221] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.
I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back.
Have to agree with most others here Hans. We have all done ALOT of work to secure systems for our Miltias. Reseting is just a CRAZY idea.
Thanks for all your other your support regarding FW changes, they will be a godsend, but yeah just cant agree with your statement.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
191
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 22:26:00 -
[222] - Quote
Shalee Lianne wrote:lol all the Gallente and Minmatar think it's a bad idea to reset Sov after Inferno for FW. Jeeze, wonder why that is. I told you why. What's the big deal with not reseting? |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 22:31:00 -
[223] - Quote
Shalee Lianne wrote:lol all the Gallente and Minmatar think it's a bad idea to reset Sov after Inferno for FW. Jeeze, wonder why that is.
If you want space... Start working together and fighting us! |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
232
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:04:00 -
[224] - Quote
If CCP really decides to go through with this obnoxious full station lock-out, then I really hope they don't decide to reset. Or if they do reset, give a grace period where the systems are reset but the stations don't lock-out yet, for like a week so people who live deep in Amarr-owned systems have a chance to secure their home system so they don't have to move hundreds of ships/assets all across the warzone. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Fleet Warpsujarento
State Protectorate Caldari State
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:19:00 -
[225] - Quote
Reset+lock out would potentially cripple GalMil for days. SOTF, SLAPD and Villore Accords are all primarily based in systems that would be flipped back. |
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
246
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 23:52:00 -
[226] - Quote
Shalee Lianne wrote:lol all the Gallente and Minmatar think it's a bad idea to reset Sov after Inferno for FW. Jeeze, wonder why that is.
You cannot win the battle fought on the field until you win the battle that is fought in your mind.
Your proposal of CCP's resetting sovereignty will not fix that which ails your troubled mind, Amarrian soldier
:) Gallente Militia -áPVP Corp. Selective recruitment open. http://iamsheriff.com/eagle.html |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
245
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 00:21:00 -
[227] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:Reset+lock out would potentially cripple GalMil for days. SOTF, SLAPD and Villore Accords are all primarily based in systems that would be flipped back.
SLAPD isn't based in a system that would be "flipped back" since it's been under caldari occupancy for awhile now.
As for the rest of the issue. I think a reset would be pretty gay. Some caldari corps base in gallente systems and some gallente base in caldari systems (some for years now). If this reset is really happening, CCP needs to make a decision now and announce it, and not deal with "maybes". Give FW corps time to move their **** and plan accordingly well in advance.
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Susan Black
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:27:00 -
[228] - Quote
First of all, I seriously doubt that CCP will reset anything. For them to come in and directly affect player-driven game play in that way would be completely against the very idea of a sandbox.
There have been plenty of controversial and big changes/expansions in the past, with no resets. Part of the sandbox includes planning for and reacting to some of these things.
www.gamerchick.net Follow me on Twitter! @gamerchick42 |
Shalee Lianne
Imperial Outlaws
72
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:36:00 -
[229] - Quote
I'm fine with it not being reset if it takes the same amount of time as it does now to flip a system. But as I understand it, they are DRASTICALLY changing the time it takes to flip a system.
http://amarrian.blogspot.com/ -á~ Roleplay blog.http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog. |
Oppon's Pull
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:39:00 -
[230] - Quote
I'm more concerned with the mad rush that the numerically superior / broader tz militias will be able to pull off - flip 7-8 important systems in the week leading up to the Inferno release with a 6 hour flip then laugh as their outnumbered opponents have to spend 40 hours to get them back. Of course this is assuming the global reset does not take place |
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Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:39:00 -
[231] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Missed the point did we? My point is that you won't have to go 10 jumps just to find someone else to pew because they'll be close by. ... All I see is a lot of whining because people want this to be fight club
Quote:LP for plexing seems to only be applying to offensive plexing. So if you actually want people to shoot at, you need some reason for people to defensively plex. If you get locked out of station and can't access your stuff, that's a pretty powerful incentive to stop the enemy from running plexes.
No, outside of maybe three systems, it's not an incentive because you don't have anything in that system that you'll be locked out from because you'll have already moved everything. You'll be left with all the same old incentives to defensive plex. If it helps you, don't think of the feature as "station lock-out"; think of it as "everybody mostly stops using the stations for no apparent reason".
Quote:First of all, alarm clock ops are a result of RF timers
Which, try to keep up, pal, are things you get more of when there are more enemy POSes than there would otherwise be in a region. You spent a whole paragraph above saying "I can't read FW threads"; this is something I've talked about in this thread.
Quote:What you all are bitching about is that you can't do that with every single system in the FW area, which was unrealistic in the first place.
Like my ship completely disappearing from space after I log out, and like my still being able to jump into Minmatar/Gallente highsec to repair my ship, like highsec itself, like bubbles and bombs magically not working anywhere in lowsec, like my own orbit impairing my ability to shoot a stationary target. It's a game. Because it's a game, you need more than 'realism' as a justification for a change -- especially when you get that same level of 'realism' just as easily with some clever RP. Like, maybe station NPCs are so justifiably terrified of capsuleers that ignoring our them fight is a convenient pact made out of band with the war by the respective empires who still want their stations in these areas to be operational. There are obvious real-world parallels.
Meanwhile, because this is still a game, a new feature can positively or negatively affect the game. To learn more about that, stop writing paragraphs that mainly communicate your inability to follow FW threads, and go try to read them. |
Susan Black
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:44:00 -
[232] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:
I will say that CCP needs to make it so there are diminishing returns for the winning side and increased incentives for the losing side, so that it isn't completely hopeless if one side really does dominate.
Ultimately, the benefits you gain from winning are the incentives. Aren't they? I mean, unless you think there should be incentives to lose...which is kind of silly, if you think about it.
So the 'returns' = the 'incentives', and the act of 'diminishing' these returns ultimately diminishes the incentives as well.
Therefore, aren't you kind of contradicting yourself?
www.gamerchick.net Follow me on Twitter! @gamerchick42 |
Susan Black
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:45:00 -
[233] - Quote
Shalee Lianne wrote:I'm fine with it not being reset if it takes the same amount of time as it does now to flip a system. But as I understand it, they are DRASTICALLY changing the time it takes to flip a system.
They changed taking FW systems before from really long to really short, and did not reset. Was this controversial back then? www.gamerchick.net Follow me on Twitter! @gamerchick42 |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:53:00 -
[234] - Quote
We call that formation of a frontline, rather than fighting a guerilla war in systems you already own and the enemy would have no actual hope of flipping. We're making it a little more like warfare, and less like fight club, which I have no problem with. People will have to move their stuff as they lose systems, so they'll actually be worried about different systems as they're forced to move their stuff or move it ever further towards the frontline.
Would those be the poses that almost no one uses right now? Or are you just guessing that POS usage will just magically start happening in FW, even though the population has a proven reticence to do any kind of POS op. In fact, they justifiably hate it. Now you're just creating scenarios and then treating them like they're already real so you can support your argument, since it doesn't have any real evidence to support it.
Here's some real facts that actually exist in the present: FW population is dwindling, players want occupancy to mean something, right now it doesn't mean anything. Station lock outs will make people actually want to participate, unless they want to lose access to their **** or don't want to be in FW anymore, or want to spend hours moving stuff with neutral alts or paying someone else to do it. It's a lot of hassle, and well worth the time put in to actually defensively plex.
Also, when I said it was unrealistic, what I mean was that it's unrealistic to be able to expect to exert some control over every system in the warzone, whether or not you actually care about it. Obviously this is a game about internet spaceships, actual realism doesn't mean ****. However you have to temper your expectations about how much you can impose your will on the enemy without actually doing anything of consequence. If you're not willing to plex for a system, it's unrealistic to expect to be able to reap the benefits from it. |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:54:00 -
[235] - Quote
Oppon's Pull wrote:I'm more concerned with the mad rush that the numerically superior / broader tz militias will be able to pull off - flip 7-8 important systems in the week leading up to the Inferno release with a 6 hour flip then laugh as their outnumbered opponents have to spend 40 hours to get them back.
Yep, this is the specific issue that a reset is just an easy-to-communicate solution for. Flip five systems at 10:00, and then at 12:00 the enemy can have fun doing 5x the requisite plexes to turn things around.
The best solution is an early and unannounced implementation of that specific change. All of the defenses of the last-minute ****-you that people will come up with, will be even more applicable to an early implementation. |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 01:55:00 -
[236] - Quote
Susan Black wrote:Julius Foederatus wrote:
I will say that CCP needs to make it so there are diminishing returns for the winning side and increased incentives for the losing side, so that it isn't completely hopeless if one side really does dominate.
Ultimately, the benefits you gain from winning are the incentives. Aren't they? I mean, unless you think there should be incentives to lose...which is kind of silly, if you think about it. So the 'returns' = the 'incentives', and the act of 'diminishing' these returns ultimately diminishes the incentives as well. Therefore, aren't you kind of contradicting yourself?
All I'm talking about is avoiding a positive feedback loop where one side can never recover from losing all their systems. Maybe that will happen organically through increased cost of faction items, but I feel that's more of a numbers issue than something directly tied to the battlefield, and all that corresponds to is the number of people actually selling items, rather than coordinating and working together to fight back. |
Asthariye
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:09:00 -
[237] - Quote
As far as our testing on Sisi has shown so far, there seems to be no LP for defensive plexing, only for offensive. I'm not sure that's enough incentive for the losing side, and it has some issues for the defending side in that it might encourage people to go solo plex in back end of nowhere rather than heavily fought over systems, but it ought to help some for the 'losing' side. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order Villore Accords
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:47:00 -
[238] - Quote
Im not going to go into any of my reasoning here, since much of it is subconscious.
Flipping a system should prevent the enemy from accessing any friendly militia agent there. But not docking rights.
Perhaps, to justify the non militia agent systems being fought over, the overall number of systems controlled should effect the lp value or rewards from agents or cost from lp store.
Locking people out of stations will obviously slow down small scale pvp, if not kill it as people are faced with multiple jumps to reship. They bring a dessy for a minor plex which takes them 5-6 minutes, but the plex is completed by the enemy before everyone can get back, then they have to fly back to friendly zones to reship into a cruiser or bc for the next plex. Its just ******** on every level to make people do that, and simply introduces an unnecessary and artificial barrier to pvp and gf's. THIS IS NOT DULLSEC SOV-WARS.
Denying access to low sec agents is enough, if caldari take intaki, then that denies me a lucrative agent etc. If they take all of low sec then i have to use poor rewarding high sec agents. Being locked out of stations where i might have 10b+ assets is too much of a nuisance. All that does is make it compulsory for a few unlucky people with jump freighter alts to take days at a time to haul **** from one place to another. That is NOT the kind of game play that should be being encouraged.
I know that FW is the testbed for dullsec changes in the pipeline, but tbh i say **** dullsec. Dullsec empires rise and fall, unless you WANT militias to actually fall then dont set them up for it. Militia warfare should be relatively easily accessible for all without all the bs sov nonsense that dullsec has. Occupancy should have a direct effect on the militias but should not cripple them. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 03:55:00 -
[239] - Quote
Like everyone else, I am just spitballing here, but after reading most of the thread, these are my thoughts (which are subject to change on whim or sobriety):
1. I still think sov capping should only lockout station services and agents, but not docking rights. Again, we militia folk cannot control who our 'allies' are, and there are too many chances for griefing by alt-corps. That is the huge difference between us and 0.0, and the difference in docking rights is justified.
2. LP for plexing: I don't think the current SiSi setup is right. It just encourages mostly unskilled alts in unfit Atrons or Condors to go to backwater systems and run buttons. It doesn't encourage actual furtherance of the war effort. FW would be flooded with even more useless plexing alts. Instead, I think both attackers AND defenders should get LP, but ONLY when the system is contested. That will create real conflict systems and 'fronts' where battles will take place. It should be possible, as this is similar to how faction rep is awarded to defenders. People can still earn LP from missions and killing.
3. On the system upgrades, I think PI should benefit in some way for POCO owners and/or PI operators. And as mentioned numerous times before, cyno jammers should be allowed. If they aren't, any sovereignty claims are purely illusory and subject to the whim of 0.0 supercap power blocks. (and again, spitballing here, but how about jump bridges? May be a bad idea...)
4. As fond as I am of the idea of a reset - I don't think it should happen. This would penalize everyone, but especially smaller corps and individuals who have ships spread everywhere. And I think X Gall suggestion about dialing the time to cap back from 5x to 3 or 4x current might be needed.
Regardless, I am glad for the tweaks, and glad that Hans and CCP are on the issue. Even if you dont agree with everything (and I don't) at least be happy they are trying.
Just my opinion. |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 03:57:00 -
[240] - Quote
Shalee Lianne wrote:lol all the Gallente and Minmatar think it's a bad idea to reset Sov after Inferno for FW. Jeeze, wonder why that is.
Because we've put in effort and the others havent? |
|
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 04:24:00 -
[241] - Quote
Oppon's Pull wrote:I'm more concerned with the mad rush that the numerically superior / broader tz militias will be able to pull off - flip 7-8 important systems in the week leading up to the Inferno release with a 6 hour flip then laugh as their outnumbered opponents have to spend 40 hours to get them back. Of course this is assuming the global reset does not take place
Start recruiting! I almost never see spam in the recruitment channel or on the recruitment forums regarding main Amarr Militia Corps. I hate to give advice to the enemy although all the Amarr Militia need to do is work together and think about what needs to be done to fix it. Let me also remind you there are many times in the past year you far out numbered Minmatar Militia. So if we can get our act together then so can you. |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
746
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 04:45:00 -
[242] - Quote
My major concern here is that they are making these changes for FLUFF RP reasons.
Which although fun, are terrible places to start from a perspective of game play and game balance. Though they should be consider as to how rules and elements of gameplay interact with RP, RP should not dictate a decision overriding balance. Station lockout just pretty much craps all over gameplay and the way FW works. They are making it freaking Null Sec Light which is and insult to lowsec players.
If you want to talk about this, militia is supposed to be a bunch of privateers not a freaking real military. So those saying stuff like front lines this and that make me LOL.
Also station lock out is not incentive for anything other then to leave FW and lowsec space. Its a disincentive to even bother joining FW.
FW is supposed to be a good place for people to go that just want to PvP or newer players to come in and get some fights without having to be in a major alliance. Station lock out pretty much craps all over some safety nets new pvpers and players should have.
Look I can write papers about why this is a bad idea. But its freaking moronically stupid to have station lockouts in low sec. Thats something the belongs in null.
Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 04:51:00 -
[243] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:...By resetting Sov, everyone has a fair chance, and if one faction gets crushed after that, its their own fault, not the fault of the mechanical changes.. No, by resetting occupancy you are resetting occupancy, fairness doesn't factor in to it.
If fairness is the goal then no major mechanics changes should be implemented without first addressing the stupidly lopsided NPC balance, geographical balance and the base plexing mechanic (orbiting is not all its cracked up to be).
Sometime down the road we might get NPC reblanced, but I frankly doubt they can/will do as promised and use some incursion stuff for it .. so as far as I am concerned FW is over. All my stuff (3 years of collecting adds up!) is spread out in border systems which will be the first to drop as Minnies keep the easy mode captures done by single frigs, have numerical superiority in just about all TZ and never be more than 5-6 minutes from major reinforcements thanks to geography (you should try offensive plexing as Amarr in the minnie backwater .. takes forever to even get there for Goddess sake!). I do take a little pleasure in knowing that due to these facts, the Shakorite's will be drowning in LP for the first several months so all their LP store goods will be utterly worthless
Either CCP resets and moves stuff to nearest border or they contact each and every person with stuff in locked out systems to hear where they'd like it teleported to .. would the CCP you know do the former or the latter?
BolsterBomb wrote:Because blob warefare pawns all amirite If you knew anything about organized plexing, then yes blobbing truly does "pawn all". Only way for that to change is to make some pretty drastic changes to the plexing mechanics themselves which I don't think will happen in the foreseeable future. By the way, all the "Yay .. we are not invisible, lets have scraps for supper!" people who embraced the idiocy of 6-7 hrs flips in December used your exact arguments .. "when plexes are everywhere, all the time the blob won't work" .. guess what ...
Want to eradicate the blob (most of it anyway)?: Change; - Introduce poison-pills to all mission plexes (just because, and needed for ..) - Remove any and all automatically spawning plexes, replace with player generated sites (has pills, remember? ) - Introduce useful strategic feedback in militia interface (ie. systems under attack messages) Result; - Attacker can't park a blob in a central location and have satellite crews capping plexes in adjacent systems because by the time they arrive the plex is gone. - Ninja plexing is obsoleted, and - Time spent becomes equivalent of benefit (zero LP for defender, so zero time). |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 06:34:00 -
[244] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:My major concern here is that they are making these changes for FLUFF RP reasons.
Which although fun, are terrible places to start from a perspective of game play and game balance. Though they should be consider as to how rules and elements of gameplay interact with RP, RP should not dictate a decision overriding balance. Station lockout just pretty much craps all over gameplay and the way FW works. They are making it freaking Null Sec Light which is and insult to lowsec players.
If you want to talk about this, militia is supposed to be a bunch of privateers not a freaking real military. So those saying stuff like front lines this and that make me LOL.
Also station lock out is not incentive for anything other then to leave FW and lowsec space. Its a disincentive to even bother joining FW.
FW is supposed to be a good place for people to go that just want to PvP or newer players to come in and get some fights without having to be in a major alliance. Station lock out pretty much craps all over some safety nets new pvpers and players should have.
Look I can write papers about why this is a bad idea. But its freaking moronically stupid to have station lockouts in low sec. Thats something the belongs in null.
LOL I can see some of these discussions gettng quite heated...
Have to disagree with you Rouge. Taking space and having a frontline is more about securing your assets and to give a buffer to those systems. The miltias regardsless of who the pilots or factions are, needs to have a strong income stream to be able to procure/build ships, ammo etc. Its all a matter of balance. Frontlines are drawn to safe guard systems that house those assets. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
192
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 10:28:00 -
[245] - Quote
Hrett wrote: 2. LP for plexing: I don't think the current SiSi setup is right. It just encourages mostly unskilled alts in unfit Atrons or Condors to go to backwater systems and run buttons. It doesn't encourage actual furtherance of the war effort. FW would be flooded with even more useless plexing alts. Instead, I think both attackers AND defenders should get LP, but ONLY when the system is contested. That will create real conflict systems and 'fronts' where battles will take place. It should be possible, as this is similar to how faction rep is awarded to defenders. People can still earn LP from missions and killing.
The "no LP for defensive plexing" appears to be a really good idea to me since it automatically limits the amount of farmers cleaning up the mess the attackers have made. What is the real incentive for defensive plexing? System defense (especially your home system) and pew. Attack is what drives conflict, and therefore its the attackers that should get the majority of the rewards. |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
136
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 10:58:00 -
[246] - Quote
Not speaking for my corp here, this is my personal opinion - butt I do have quite a few ships and stuff in Nisuwa.
My opinion is if a Sov reset were to lock me out of Nisuwa I could live without those ships for a few days maybe even weeks until we recapture that system....
I also would imagine there would be sufficient time and warning of this reset to be able to move stuff from there to some safer location if needed too, so all the people crying yet again about station lock outs resulting from a reset are being rather lazy.
The historical legacy of the effort put in to capture these systems I do have some sympathy with, and I'd be quite happy for CCP to perhaps convert all those VP to LP for the people who have put the work in in the past, but if a Sov reset is the quickest way to jumpstart FW back into a healthy life then I'm all for it sorry.
Look at the bigger picture before you post. Cheers. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
192
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 11:21:00 -
[247] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote: The historical legacy of the effort put in to capture these systems I do have some sympathy with, and I'd be quite happy for CCP to perhaps convert all those VP to LP for the people who have put the work in in the past, but if a Sov reset is the quickest way to jumpstart FW back into a healthy life then I'm all for it sorry.
The big question is why would a sov reset jumpstart FW? If the currently proposed mechanics are going to work, they need to work when one side has an advantage over the other as well as when both sides are even. BTW, now that we have an exchange rate for VP to LP (17k LP for a medium plex, XXX VP for a medium plex), I feel it's time for CCP to reimburse all my hard work! :D
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Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
136
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 11:37:00 -
[248] - Quote
It would jumpstart FW because the big CCP fanfare will draw new people to FW and the excitement of players starting FW after the patch would quickly evaporate for people if for example they join Gallente and find they hold 1 system on day 1 after the patch.
This overwhelming situation combined with old miserable farts like me and Damar spewing putrid bile at all these new recruits about how fail us Gallente are might put a lot of new recruits off.
If a fresh start (to Sov) with all the pomp and ceremony CCP can muster - pretty trailers of Nyxes crashing into stations etc etc - breathes new life and players into FW I think it would be a positive thing. Not saying it is "fair" or whatever for the people who have put the effort in in the past, which is why I think all those hard earned (lol) VP should perhaps become worthwhile by being converted to LP.
Val, Sasawong, yourself (X G) and Damar would all get a tidy windfalls for their heroic efforts of the past no doubt. |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
173
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 12:43:00 -
[249] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:Val, Sasawong, yourself (X G) and Damar would all get a tidy windfalls for their heroic efforts of the past no doubt.
I would buy a carrier. For every pilot in my alliance. Then i'd get a titan and selfdestruct it for the lulz.
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Cromwell Savage
The Rock Hard Roosters Villore Accords
57
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 13:27:00 -
[250] - Quote
I joined FW 3 years ago just as the squids "took" all of our systems. While I am far from a "serious" plexer, I helped out where I could when I could to get where we are now - to include my "home" system. I continue to defend it and the squids still have not retaken it (even though they've come close a few times ).
I already think the full system "lockout" is absolutely ******** to begin with and should only be limited to militia owned stations - but a sov reset upon reslease with auto station lockout would be the icing on the cake for me.
If there is an arbitrary sov reset and I'm locked out of my station through "no fault" of my/our own, then FW can lick my brown eye. |
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
65
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:14:00 -
[251] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:The "no LP for defensive plexing" appears to be a really good idea to me since it automatically limits the amount of farmers cleaning up the mess the attackers have made. What is the real incentive for defensive plexing? System defense (especially your home system) and pew. Attack is what drives conflict, and therefore its the attackers that should get the majority of the rewards.
I disagree Now, when you chase someone out of a plex they are running, you get no reward (except to fight off the stick of losing docking access to the system you are fighting over, which you may or may not care about for that particular system). What incentive now is there to defend plexes in hikko, immuri, pyne, kedama, hirri etc?
IMO, no LP for defense is completely borked. |
Marcus Foederatus
Gallente Militia War College
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 16:40:00 -
[252] - Quote
Something like half the LP rewards for defensive plexes. I think you should get something but definitely not as much as offensive, since they can be run with an unfitted t1 frig. |
Mister Kwong
State War Academy Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 17:43:00 -
[253] - Quote
I think the docking restrictions will seriously hinder new players from joining and staying in FW. Most of the people in favor of the docking restrictions like Julius or Victer seems to be veterans (at least I think they are?) but they don't understand how challenging it will be for the newbies to stay in FW. It is stupid for CCP to ask for young players who have no alt to go create another alt on the same account and postpone training time with our main. Or even dumber to ask us to get 2nd account just for this.
People don't understand that the younger players are likely to suffer the most because of the docking restrictions. But what does their opinions matter since it's only the vets whose opinions matter as Hans pointed out |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
249
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:12:00 -
[254] - Quote
chatgris wrote:X Gallentius wrote:The "no LP for defensive plexing" appears to be a really good idea to me since it automatically limits the amount of farmers cleaning up the mess the attackers have made. What is the real incentive for defensive plexing? System defense (especially your home system) and pew. Attack is what drives conflict, and therefore its the attackers that should get the majority of the rewards. I disagree Now, when you chase someone out of a plex they are running, you get no reward (except to fight off the stick of losing docking access to the system you are fighting over, which you may or may not care about for that particular system). What incentive now is there to defend plexes in hikko, immuri, pyne, kedama, hirri etc? IMO, no LP for defense is completely borked.
I will probably make 9 alts like certain gallente players and have them run defensives all day in stabbed condors if LP is rewarded for defensive plexing. I think the whole LP for offensive plexing is nice, and you defend systems to gaurd your assets and lower the LP cost of your items in the LP store. |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
111
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:16:00 -
[255] - Quote
Mister Kwong wrote:I think the docking restrictions will seriously hinder new players from joining and staying in FW. Most of the people in favor of the docking restrictions like Julius or Victer seems to be veterans (at least I think they are?) but they don't understand how challenging it will be for the newbies to stay in FW. It is stupid for CCP to ask for young players who have no alt to go create another alt on the same account and postpone training time with our main. Or even dumber to ask us to get 2nd account just for this. People don't understand that the younger players are likely to suffer the most because of the docking restrictions. But what does their opinions matter since it's only the vets whose opinions matter as Hans pointed out U r right ... And even the vets r not happy about it .... I checked history of people who strongly advocating it and most of hem are either alts or not very active in fw. IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
258
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:19:00 -
[256] - Quote
amarr's 18 remaining systems (mostly in dumb places) means the amarr will be even less able to fight than they are now, so with that i expect my corp and a few others will have to reluctantly leave fw, real shame :(
Minnies have been plexing the hell out of the remaining systems since these changes hit sisi taking advantage the current 6-8 hour system flip rathe rthan the new one when the changes hit.
a system reset is the only way not to crush the amarr completely if ccp are serious about the changes.
oh well its been fun, so now how does one pirate in low sec? http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Shalee Lianne
Imperial Outlaws
72
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 19:20:00 -
[257] - Quote
I do believe that FW will become so much worse for newer players. Station lock outs will be a big deal to someone new to the game who doesn't have alts to move their things, etc.
Also, with all of the datacore farming that is going to happen, I doubt new players are going to get picked up for plexing fleets, who is going to want to share LP with them?
Station lockouts are going to be bad for pvp as well because now we can roam all over the warzone, but once we are locked out of 75% of the stations, I think we are going to stay very close to home.
Already with FW we get shot at if we go into enemy highsec. Now we are just getting more limited on where we can go. Station lockout is not a good thing IMO.
Corporations who are looking to join FW after the expansion are going to join the side that is winning, who wants to join the losing side and have one or two systems you can maybe dock in?
Datacore farming is not enough of an incentive to join the losing side. A player can always go run Incursion and make more ISK and not have their standings butchered to the enemy side and have access to dock wherever. So yeah. http://amarrian.blogspot.com/ -á~ Roleplay blog.http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog. |
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 20:01:00 -
[258] - Quote
Shalee Lianne wrote:I do believe that FW will become so much worse for newer players. Station lock outs will be a big deal to someone new to the game who doesn't have alts to move their things, etc.
Because yeah, they won't be getting recruited into FW corps that already have foundations who could help them out with stuff like that
Shalee Lianne wrote:Also, with all of the datacore farming that is going to happen, I doubt new players are going to get picked up for plexing fleets, who is going to want to share LP with them?
What they can't organize roams on their own? LP will only be handed out for Plexing after the patch?
Shalee Lianne wrote:Station lockouts are going to be bad for pvp as well because now we can roam all over the warzone, but once we are locked out of 75% of the stations, I think we are going to stay very close to home.
Already with FW we get shot at if we go into enemy highsec. Now we are just getting more limited on where we can go. Station lockout is not a good thing IMO.
Well then I guess you'd better look at taking strategic systems and holding them to base from.
Shalee Lianne wrote:Corporations who are looking to join FW after the expansion are going to join the side that is winning, who wants to join the losing side and have one or two systems you can maybe dock in?
Datacore farming is not enough of an incentive to join the losing side. A player can always go run Incursion and make more ISK and not have their standings butchered to the enemy side and have access to dock wherever. So yeah.
Sounds like you're planning on becoming an Incursion runner, so why are you crying about FW? |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 20:07:00 -
[259] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:amarr's 18 remaining systems (mostly in dumb places) means the amarr will be even less able to fight than they are now, so with that i expect my corp and a few others will have to reluctantly leave fw, real shame :(
Minnies have been plexing the hell out of the remaining systems since these changes hit sisi taking advantage the current 6-8 hour system flip rathe rthan the new one when the changes hit.
a system reset is the only way not to crush the amarr completely if ccp are serious about the changes.
oh well its been fun, so now how does one pirate in low sec?
Just base out of Minmatar highsec. That will become a very viable alternative if we can all rat ourselves up to -1.9
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Galatica789
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 20:12:00 -
[260] - Quote
They should make it once squids enter the plex they cant warp off till its done, sicne they always seem to run QQ |
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Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 20:12:00 -
[261] - Quote
Super Chair wrote:chatgris wrote:X Gallentius wrote:The "no LP for defensive plexing" appears to be a really good idea to me since it automatically limits the amount of farmers cleaning up the mess the attackers have made. What is the real incentive for defensive plexing? System defense (especially your home system) and pew. Attack is what drives conflict, and therefore its the attackers that should get the majority of the rewards. I disagree Now, when you chase someone out of a plex they are running, you get no reward (except to fight off the stick of losing docking access to the system you are fighting over, which you may or may not care about for that particular system). What incentive now is there to defend plexes in hikko, immuri, pyne, kedama, hirri etc? IMO, no LP for defense is completely borked. I will probably make 9 alts like certain gallente players and have them run defensives all day in stabbed condors if LP is rewarded for defensive plexing. I think the whole LP for offensive plexing is nice, and you defend systems to gaurd your assets and lower the LP cost of your items in the LP store.
Good point. This is a problem with offensive too. Perhaps no LP for either until a system is contested, but full LP for offensive and half for defensive once it is contested... |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
259
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 20:13:00 -
[262] - Quote
most organizations in eve have trouble fielding a good pvp presence around the clock in all TZ, baring in mind fw is a free to all game career path, this is going to make defending a system all the harder.
It sort of works in 0.0 because you can trust your alliance mates to get stuff done, its never worked like that in fw and i think having such harsh consequences (namely lockout) a tedious venture for most casual pvp/pve outfits that join.
im expecting a monopoly smiler to incursions to emerge and the carefree pvpers going back to 0.0 roam, high sec decs and general piracy. http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Almity
Imperial Outlaws
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 20:16:00 -
[263] - Quote
The ebb and flow of FW could forever stop if these changes take effect. As Shalee said who will want to join a losing side? FW is already broken and bleeding people. This docking issue could be the death blow.
The changes are not all bad. LP for kills and capturing plexes are a great ideas. Having a bonus for controlling systems is also a nice idea. It gives the Winning side a reason to win. The losing side has the plus of more systems to plex in. Seems all well and good to me.
One thing I see playing out over and over is this.
Small Amarr fleets goes to capture a few plex. Minnie fleet gets intel and camps out gates with fast tackle Minnie fleet goes to push Amarr out of plex. Amarr fleet has to keep bouncing safes or try to run a gate taking a few losses.
I know some people will think that is fair. But many of us have chosen to play in FW for these reasons. The ability to undock, go a jump or two, get a fight, dock up and log off. Why would anyone who plays like that stay in FW. It seems these changes push more people away than they keep or draw in.
Maybe once Hans has no WT to shoot anymore he will push CCP to make the right choices. Unfortunately it will be to late to save FW by then.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
192
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 21:15:00 -
[264] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:amarr's 18 remaining systems (mostly in dumb places) means the amarr will be even less able to fight than they are now, so with that i expect my corp and a few others will have to reluctantly leave fw, real shame :(
Geez, just move to Egglehende. Invulnerable, only one jump from ring of doom.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
192
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 21:19:00 -
[265] - Quote
chatgris wrote: I disagree Now, when you chase someone out of a plex they are running, you get no reward (except to fight off the stick of losing docking access to the system you are fighting over, which you may or may not care about for that particular system). What incentive now is there to defend plexes in hikko, immuri, pyne, kedama, hirri etc?
IMO, no LP for defense is completely borked.
I was going to try to talk my peeps into letting non-station systems flip so we can farm them. Maybe we can upgrade them, lol.
The importance for defensive plexing will be: 1. Home systems 2. Mission systems 3. Systems with stations near mission systems. (these will be staging systems to attack mission systems) 4. Others.
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Shalee Lianne
Imperial Outlaws
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 21:24:00 -
[266] - Quote
The whole 'just suck it up' attitude of some people who are posting on this thread is appalling, not quite unexpected, but appalling none-the-less.
I love Faction War and have spent my whole time on EVE in it. I only want what's best for all of FW, not just Amarr. I don't want Amarr to win the war. I don't want Minmatar to win the war either, nor Gallente or Caldari. I want to pvp! I love that CCP is making it easier to support one's self in FW by pvping and plexing, but not at the proposed cost.
I believe that when these changes take place, a lot of people leave FW because it will suddenly become a whole lot easier to be out of it then in it. http://amarrian.blogspot.com/ -á~ Roleplay blog.http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog. |
Fennisair
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 22:28:00 -
[267] - Quote
I'm still kinda on-the-fence about the reset issue. I don't think it'd be even remotely fair if CCP goes ahead with full lock-outs. Also with how easy/fast it is to flip systems at the moment it'd kind of be a joke to just start lock-outs with no reset. If there's going to be a reset there really needs to be no lock-out and an improved system flipping mechanic (and plenty of warning beforehand so people can move to "safe" systems if they want to).
I don't believe that full lock-out from stations is a good idea though. It's just too restrictive (especially if CCP still want FW to be noob friendly).
The station-services denial... absolutely!
Station-guns... certainly on any of the militia stations (TLF/24th stations etc.), but not neutral ones. That will give new peeps some confidence that they can actually undock from their home station and then go out into the warzone. It'll limit some aspects of station camping and will draw the fights out into space (because if they only hang around their own station they won't have anyone to shoot... unless it's bigger stuff or fleets with logi. It adds the risk that if they don't defend their systems, then they'll have to suffer their own station's guns. It'll of course make it a bit unbalanced in the enemies favour as they'll be able to camp their "new" station and have station-guns on their side if they flip the system. Some very clear undock warning-messages for people leaving an "enemy owned" station will be necessary... otherwise a lot of frig's are going to die horribly. Of course if you choose to live in a neutral station then you're open to being fully camped-in, etc.
There's no need to make it like null-sec. But adding some limited restrictions that are in the same vein as null mechanics would also further that idea that low-sec is a stepping-stone to null-sec (even if the majority of low-sec residents don't see it that way). |
Fennisair
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 22:41:00 -
[268] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:amarr's 18 remaining systems (mostly in dumb places) means the amarr will be even less able to fight than they are now, so with that i expect my corp and a few others will have to reluctantly leave fw, real shame :(
Geez, just move to Egglehende. Invulnerable, only one jump from ring of doom.
Actually, I can see something like this happening a lot more if they go ahead as things are now. It's quite likely people will get pissed off with the mechanics and either leave, or will set up home bases in non-FW systems. Which will pretty much defeat the point of it all.
Maybe some kind of "fixed" or uncaptureable home system for each militia would be a good idea? Obviously you could still be attacked there. Also those bigger corps/alliances that felt they could, would go out further and have bases in the captureable systems (which would benefit their whole militia of course).
I've always felt that a lot of the problem with the Amarr/Minmatar warzone was the proximity of the "home" systems. Being just 2-jumps away from each other is dumb. We should be 6 or more at least (and preferably with better supply lines to high-sec... though that may be a bit soft), to allow some maneuvering room. We've always (both), needed more room and time to form-up properly when we find the enemy has a fleet up. Having more time to get a proper counter-fleet going would mean better fights all round and would open things up for better scouting/planning/tactics/etc. It'd make reinforcing a fight that's somewhere in the middle more difficult which would also make us all improve our logistics chains (not the rep'ping kind; the supply/reinforcement kind). |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
192
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 23:01:00 -
[269] - Quote
Fennisair wrote:Maybe some kind of "fixed" or uncaptureable home system for each militia would be a good idea? It's called high sec, though with all the pies in my militia (and if Bad Messenger lays seige to Villore again) I suspect our last-case backup system will be Aeschee or Pellile. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
388
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 23:05:00 -
[270] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:amarr's 18 remaining systems (mostly in dumb places) means the amarr will be even less able to fight than they are now, so with that i expect my corp and a few others will have to reluctantly leave fw, real shame :(
Geez, just move to Egglehende. Invulnerable, only one jump from ring of doom.
Is Egglehende nice?
Any particular station I should base out of?
What is this ring of doom?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
192
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 23:11:00 -
[271] - Quote
Cearain wrote:what is ring of doom?
ring of doom is the Seiside/Auga/Amamake/Dal/Lantorn/Vard cluster.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar/Egghelhende#sec |
ValentinaDLM
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
488
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 23:36:00 -
[272] - Quote
My personal opinion Tlf stations should let crusade players dock, but neutral.stations should remain neutral after all, and yes let's get these station guns going to support the side in control.
Rp wise that may be silly after all that minmatar station doesn't change corps when occupancy does but, I think we tails the.mechanics then the rp. |
Shalee Lianne
Imperial Outlaws
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 00:32:00 -
[273] - Quote
If they dropped the whole lock-out idea (please?), I do like the idea of not being able to access agents nor have clones etc in stations that are held by the enemy. I also like the idea of station guns shooting at the enemy militia.
Perhaps we could do some shady deals with the stations and pay for some services, like an extraordinary amount for repairs or something. Maybe Scotty takes bribes?
Also, I'm curious if we will be locked out of our militia allies lost system's stations as well? http://amarrian.blogspot.com/ -á~ Roleplay blog.http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 01:26:00 -
[274] - Quote
Alaekessa wrote:Shalee Lianne wrote:I do believe that FW will become so much worse for newer players. Station lock outs will be a big deal to someone new to the game who doesn't have alts to move their things, etc. Because yeah, they won't be getting recruited into FW corps that already have foundations who could help them out with stuff like that
I reckon Alaekessa has hit the nail on the head . Why wouldn't new pilots want to join? They will most likely have a home deep in home faction space. This will actually make FW better for new pilots and help build up the base of pilots.
I understand the Minmatar are giving the Amarr a HIDING currently. Think about it... Recruit more pilots. How do you think the Minmatar now have the numbers??? I remember only 4 months ago that roles were reversed. |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 01:51:00 -
[275] - Quote
the amarr are perfectly capable of getting a blob together and doing anything they want. the difference is that we've stuck with (and worked) the grind much harder than them. On the numbers front, the two sides are actually very close, and in quality of ships and overall quality of pilots, i'd say the amarr still have the leg up.
In the end, the Amarr don't want to work for the systems and now some of them want CCP to just give them stuff back - and in the end screw over all of the minmatar who both worked their asses off for the systems and who have lived in these systems for well over a year now.
I honestly don't see any justification for a reset, what-so-ever, but I certainly can understand where the feeling comes from. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
388
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 02:50:00 -
[276] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Alaekessa wrote:Shalee Lianne wrote:I do believe that FW will become so much worse for newer players. Station lock outs will be a big deal to someone new to the game who doesn't have alts to move their things, etc. Because yeah, they won't be getting recruited into FW corps that already have foundations who could help them out with stuff like that I reckon Alaekessa has hit the nail on the head . Why wouldn't new pilots want to join? They will most likely have a home deep in home faction space. This will actually make FW better for new pilots and help build up the base of pilots. I understand the Minmatar are giving the Amarr a HIDING currently. Think about it... Recruit more pilots. How do you think the Minmatar now have the numbers??? I remember only 4 months ago that roles were reversed.
I have always thought that that large null sec alliances are much easier for new pilots than faction war. They tell you how to fit your ships. The primaries are often just in alphabetical order. Nothing a noob does wrong is likely to cost a fight. They have forums with helpful information and pilots who are trying to recruit and help new players.
So to the extent this makes faction war even more of a blob to win game, this is more newb friendly. Whether it teaches newbs what is really great about eve is a different question. Now like null sec its going to involve more teaching the lemmings to swim together. The quality small scale pvpers are unlikely to have a role in the actual occupancy combat anymore.
With these changes faction war becomes like level 3 missions to null sec level 4 missions. You will basically have to do all the same sorts of grinds of null sec - just in smaller ships and for much lower pay. If I wanted to go recruiting and building connections and coodinating large fleets to grind stuff I would be in null sec going after allot bigger rewards.
I really wonder why the people that like these changes just don't go to null sec and get a much bigger return for all the "effort" and "work" they do. I ldon't mean that as any sort of insult either. Its a sincere question. Null sec is the place where you get the big returns on hard work - if that is what you want in eve. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Noisrevbus
118
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 03:34:00 -
[277] - Quote
Dark Pangolin wrote:Who cares about the FW changes! Check this part out!
Drone Damage module (Extrinsic Damage Amplifier) GÇóCPU Rigs (Small/Medium/Large Processor Overclocking Unit) GÇóFueled Shield booster (Small/Medium/Large Ancillary Shield Booster), using Cap Boosters as charges GÇóLight and Medium Web drones GÇóResistance shifting armor hardener (Armor Adaptive Hardener)
Also i agree that a denial of services and having the station guns shoot at you would be more appropriate that locking you out of stations...
This is more of the stuff that really scare me. It's random "awesome" introduced without any thought to it's lasting implications of game balance and without any direct motivation to it's introduction.
Drones never had damage modules for a good reason, they already had a high-damage niche to begin with. An Ishtar could always spit nearly 500 dps over 100km at the expense of the drawbacks inherent in drones. Turret ships put out half of that. Missile ships could content with raw damage but had their own application issues. Then came Tier 3 BC with their 600-700 dps paradigm just stepping over every other notion of balance, and now this. In what way did we need it? did drone boats lack damage output? will they see fleet-use because of this? Surely not.
A fuelled shield booster would cut down on slots needed for an injected tank. A fair general idea it may seem, considering the manadatory nature of midslots like MWD or points, but it does enable new combinations of high-buffer injection that will ripple balance issues across the ship classes; force a major amount of post-balance work better spent elsewhere, and for what reason?
It's probably just a testing ground to meet the demands of people whining about active bonuses not scaling as gang sizes go up, or active tanking being relegated to small gangs. The thing is that balance is actually pretty tolerable as it is, between armor and shield or between the logic that internal mitigation with external regeneration is a combined superior team-strategy. Why meddle with it when there are glaring holes to fix? Why cause new?
There is one very important difference between EC-drones and web-drones. ECM may indirectly cause a ship to explode, but webs have a direct and much quicker effect. Look at it like this: if you swarm something with EC-drones it tend to affect offensive control, you can still manoeuver and buy time, it's also chance based which allow you to sustain and deal with it. That's why something like smartbombs is effective on EC-drones. They have little offensive snap - even if they can have defensive snap (drones, jam, flee).
Webbing drones on the other hand can be applied to a fleeing enemy with an instant effect that then and there can cause them to explode. Smartbombing that won't be feasible. Your team-effort versus mass application can't react that fast. You'll likely see profileration of large gangs just putting out a sphere of webbing death by allowing small web drones. It doesn't matter if it's a weak figure, every Drake in the game all of a sudden got 60km of web reach; a bonus usually reserved for very specialist ship under specific circumstances. It's yet another of them mechanics that just feed a blob and will give people less motivation to go out and fight each other in the first place.
Barring CPU-rigs, what of this crap is actually needed in the game? Needed to the point that it's taken design precedence over fixing clearly defined problems. I understand i sound conservative and boring, but ugh. |
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 03:35:00 -
[278] - Quote
QQ MOAR
::War is hell:: |
Histocomp
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 03:56:00 -
[279] - Quote
Sorry all you Amarr militia types, but the idea of a reset is the wrong way to go. Just thing of what null sec would be like if they 'reset' sov every time a change was made. You lost those systems and the Minmatar militia earned them, now you have to deal with it. Any perceived 'advantage' they earned for themselves. And you are perfectly capable for basing out of other systems and taking them back. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 04:25:00 -
[280] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Andiedeath wrote:
... . Why wouldn't new pilots want to join (Militia)? They will most likely have a home deep in home faction space. This will actually make FW better for new pilots and help build up the base of pilots.
I understand the Minmatar are giving the Amarr a HIDING currently. Think about it... Recruit more pilots. How do you think the Minmatar now have the numbers??? I remember only 4 months ago that roles were reversed.
I have always thought that that large null sec alliances are much easier for new pilots than faction war. They tell you how to fit your ships. The primaries are often just in alphabetical order. Nothing a noob does wrong is likely to cost a fight. They have forums with helpful information and pilots who are trying to recruit and help new players. So to the extent this makes faction war even more of a blob to win game, this is more newb friendly. Whether it teaches newbs what is really great about eve is a different question. Now like null sec its going to involve more teaching the lemmings to swim together. The quality small scale pvpers are unlikely to have a role in the actual occupancy combat anymore. With these changes faction war becomes like level 3 missions to null sec level 4 missions. You will basically have to do all the same sorts of grinds of null sec - just in smaller ships and for much lower pay. If I wanted to go recruiting and building connections and coodinating large fleets to grind stuff I would be in null sec going after allot bigger rewards. I really wonder why the people that like these changes just don't go to null sec and get a much bigger return for all the "effort" and "work" they do. I ldon't mean that as any sort of insult either. Its a sincere question. Null sec is the place where you get the big returns on hard work - if that is what you want in eve.
It seems the basis of your debate is that Militia Corps are not capable (or willing) to support new pilots and helping them get the tools they need to succeed. It also suggests that Corps in Militia do not think about infrastructure to support their goals. Both these assumptions are incorrect for at least some Corps/Alliances. It is quite easy to set up a Corp like a Null Sec alliance now. Even with bully Pirate alliances like PL in our midst. All the Militias have to do is think more about the end game and what they need to do to get there.
I seem to remember an old world book chapter... Habit 2: Begin with the end in mind. Applys very well here. |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 06:22:00 -
[281] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:the amarr are perfectly capable of getting a blob together and doing anything they want. the difference is that we've stuck with (and worked) the grind much harder than them. .. This is a troll, surely. Have you tried plexing as one of the good guys, aka. Amarr? Where you can offensive plex with single frigs we need entire bloody fleets to counter the TP/Missile spam of the Mime NPCs in order to keep same speed as you lot.
At any rate, the massive imbalances in the current (and coming) system has turned most of Amarr off the entire thing which is why there hasn't been much of anything going on since the infini-plex change. What is the point of dedicating 200+ man hours (small gang for ~7 hrs) to flip a system when the enemy can re-flip it with 21 man hours (3 frigs for ~7 hrs)?
Not resetting is like allowing a single person to use a bicycle for a marathon and then keeping his world shattering record for all time .. and yes, the difference in "ease of plexing" is that pronounced.
Solution to defence LP issue: Make it sliding scale, the closer one is to ones desired outcome (decontest for defence, vulnerable/flip for offence) the fewer LP one gets. For Defense: Doing the rounds and resetting lightly contested systems would be worth it but barely, the big payout would be in systems near flipping where enemy is strongest (only if major changes to balance is made though). For Offense: Big carrot is the flip which is also to yield LP (anyone else having issues with the LP flood they are planning?), so the decreasing ticks for plexes should act as motivation for the "last push" (synergy with defence above).
(For CCP) Hoping for answers to following in blogs: - Are we still going to grind static EHP for flips by the way, or will it be 'automatic' once VP pool overflows? - Are we going to have some indicator other than the highly inaccurate blob on map as to status of VP pool? - Are missions getting nerfed to eradicate the perpetual bomber free-loaders .. they are going to be like locusts, swarming between militias that are doing well and thus get increased payouts. - Are navy NPC's getting balanced as promised, or will it be at a later date? - Will map on Amarr/Shakorite front be tweaked to 'even things out' as was done with addition of Black Rise at launch? - Will plex access restrictions be tweaked to disallow pirate hulls which are punching far above their weightclass? - With retraction of discount on LP for navy hulls, will they be made exclusive to FW or do we still have to compete with the high-sec bots (even if there is a person, repetition dulls the mind turning him/her into a bot so Hah!)?
Probably more, but Civ4 beckons. |
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
246
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 06:40:00 -
[282] - Quote
CCP- By implementing docking restrictions, you are also making it very very tough for people to run missions. I won't say impossible but this becomes a major challenge.
People receive damage to their ships and they will need to dock up in order to repair the damage. But now this isn't possible due to docking restrictions. This is especially tough on the newbies. Yet one more way of making FW less accessible. C'est La Eve :) Gallente Militia -áPVP Corp. Selective recruitment open. http://iamsheriff.com/eagle.html |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 06:41:00 -
[283] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:the amarr are perfectly capable of getting a blob together and doing anything they want. the difference is that we've stuck with (and worked) the grind much harder than them. ..
Very True. Although again December/January I seem to remember the Amarr were that focused and the Minmatar were getting completed slaughtered. At one stage I believe they had everything upto Amamake and some over near Hek area... What happened???? Oh thats right we got our act together. :P
Veshta Yoshida wrote:This is a troll, surely. Have you tried plexing as one of the good guys, aka. Amarr? Where you can offensive plex with single frigs we need entire bloody fleets to counter the TP/Missile spam of the Mime NPCs in order to keep same speed as you lot.
Nope not a troll and completely true, but out of interest I'm going to set up and try it in an alt and let you know. If its unbalanced then ccp should fix by rebalancing the NPCs, if not... well... no more needed to be said.
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 07:26:00 -
[284] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Oh thats right we got our act together. :P Yeah, there was a brief spurt of activity when infini-plex changes came around, but it died out when people were reminded of the imbalance .. ie. Mimes needing only 10-15% effort to undo whatever is done.
Andiedeath wrote:Nope not a troll and completely true, but out of interest I'm going to set up and try it in an alt and let you know. If its unbalanced then ccp should fix by rebalancing the NPCs, if not... well... no more needed to be said. You could just ask one of the old timers around your parts, but by all means test it .. the awakening will be all the more abrupt. Looking forward to seeing you under the "Balance FW!" banners |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
173
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 07:35:00 -
[285] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Nope not a troll and completely true, but out of interest I'm going to set up and try it in an alt and let you know. If its unbalanced then ccp should fix by rebalancing the NPCs, if not... well... no more needed to be said.
Just to be blunt, I would rather have full caldari minor plex spawn on my side in battle than full amarr major plex spawn. That might be saying something. Main issue with amarr npcs is that they have hard time hitting a broadside of a barn when parked inside a said barn. If you web and paint a cruiser sized target hull, they might hit with some regularity if within 20-30km. Otherwise...... |
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 07:42:00 -
[286] - Quote
A reset for Amarr-Mini-FW space (only there) is necessary /possible because CCP messed up there:
I) The Amarr-Mini--FW zone has 70 systems. Amarr has sov in 30 systems. Minis have sov in 40 systems, thats are 33% more systems. No big deal; no one complained about it because it was inconsiderable.
II) The current mechanic makes it harder to occupy a system with enemy sov. Thats great and reasonable and i think everybody agrees that it a good mechanic.
III) CCP wants to give you a bonus based on the number off systems your faction holds (no one actually confirmed that iirc). Great, i think everyone loves it.
Some people might now ask, "where is your problem?" and some might have already noticed it by reading I) and II). For those who haven't: Its harder for Amarr milita to controll 50% (35 systems) of the FW zone, and this has nothing to do with numbers, npcs, plex mechanics, how 1337 every body is and so on. And this is an issue when CCP does III).
BTW I do not want that minis lose all thier amarr systems now , but CCP cant ignore this problem |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
172
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 08:10:00 -
[287] - Quote
You guys can get over the idea of Sov resets.. CCP has never done it for null sec and they won't do it for FW. It's almost certainly not gonna happen, so if you want your systems back you need to get out there and take them back before the update.
As far as the LP boost into the game it's being countered by almost an absurd price hike on all the Faction ships. If you look on SISI the Faction ships in the FW LP store have had the require LP cost multiplied by 4.
Hookbill for example is 40k LP
Navy Scorp is 600k LP
Navy Raven is 1 million LP
|
Jimmy Nickson
The Lucky Star
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 10:01:00 -
[288] - Quote
Station lockouts come to TQ = CCP killed amarr militia
Many corps will leave because minmatar plex with way more numbers than us etc...
Also majority of the amarr populous is lacking they're on holidays or just not logging in so hardly any resistance. Not to mentchin any active players are not consistant players they're casual players. This basicly means all people who minmatar see as an opossing fleet on from will basicly drop out of fw because they can't use their ships minmatar will no longer have anybody to fight, they will just end up camping high-sec gates waiting for noobs to come and all the noobs will rage and leave so no amarr fw etc.... I know several corps who have already stated they will drop amarr fw if station lockouts come to TQ because of the reason amarr can't compete atm. Fire ze missiles! |
Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
162
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 11:00:00 -
[289] - Quote
This is going to be so funny.
Now next time we take your system your all doomed!!!
ANNNND WE GET PAID TO KILL YOU ALL!!! HAHAHAH YES!!!!
iLaw we will sell u huola back for 50bill http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 14:43:00 -
[290] - Quote
Jimmy Nickson wrote:Station lockouts come to TQ = CCP killed amarr militia
Many corps will leave because minmatar plex with way more numbers than us etc...
Also majority of the amarr populous is lacking they're on holidays or just not logging in so hardly any resistance. Not to mentchin any active players are not consistant players they're casual players. This basicly means all people who minmatar see as an opossing fleet on from will basicly drop out of fw because they can't use their ships minmatar will no longer have anybody to fight, they will just end up camping high-sec gates waiting for noobs to come and all the noobs will rage and leave so no amarr fw etc.... I know several corps who have already stated they will drop amarr fw if station lockouts come to TQ because of the reason amarr can't compete atm.
Yay moar tears.... |
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2317
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 15:45:00 -
[291] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:You guys can get over the idea of Sov resets.. CCP has never done it for null sec and they won't do it for FW. It's almost certainly not gonna happen, so if you want your systems back you need to get out there and take them back before the update.
As far as the LP boost into the game it's being countered by almost an absurd price hike on all the Faction ships. If you look on SISI the Faction ships in the FW LP store have had the require LP cost multiplied by 4.
Hookbill for example is 40k LP
Navy Scorp is 600k LP
Navy Raven is 1 million LP
This assumption about LP store prices is a perfect example of why everyone should be waiting for CCP's final confirmation and explanation of all the changes in context with one another. They've already said they'll have a dev blog out this week, I highly recommend people wait until they know what the situation is before they just assume what they see on SiSi is static.
Go back and watch the Fan Fest presentation. It was there that the developers explained that the LP store prices are supposed to be on a sliding scale, according to victory conditions for ones faction. Winning militias are supposed to be getting discounts in the LP store, meaning you'd pay less for your faction gear than ever before. Losing factions would see their LP prices soar.
This way, there is always an incentive for the team that is behind to fight back, as every FW pilot will want to be cashing out their LP when it is worth the most isk. You might earn a ton while your faction is ahead, and than have it be worth less if you let the enemy beat you, providing an incentive to gold on to your LP, fight back, and than cash it out at peak value again.
Now, I have no idea what this means in terms of SiSi numbers, I suspect that without an actual war being fought and systems being reinforced, everyone is merely seeing the worst case scenario as far as the pricing scheme. But that is exactly why I suggest just waiting to see what CCP confirms this coming week, and than make your evaluations of the new system.
Everyone right now is so emotionally rooted in how this affects them in the short term, and forgetting that the current FW community is but a fraction of those that have come and gone. Many non-FW pilots will be interested in trying the new system as now everything has actual meaning and value, the Sov reset suggestion that everyone is panicking about is as much with respect for pilots that will want to try FW for the first time in years, or the first time ever. They may have little incentive to do so if one faction makes a sprint while taking Sov is incredibly easy, and than lives off the fat of the land that is supposed to be the reward for a system where taking Sov is much more difficult.
CCP should be considering everyone in the game that may want to give this a try, not just us grizzled veterans afraid of change. Starting May 22 with little reason for outsiders to enlist in the faction of their choice because of a frozen, imbalanced state of Sovereignty is not going to encourage the enlistment numbers that is one of primary reason we're working to improve Faction Warfare in the first place.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 16:25:00 -
[292] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Starting May 22 with little reason for outsiders to enlist in the faction of their choice because of a frozen, imbalanced state of Sovereignty is not going to encourage the enlistment numbers that is one of primary reason we're working to improve Faction Warfare in the first place. I respectfully disagree. Sovereignty isn't frozen, and if the new system is going to work, it needs to work when the numbers on each side are both balanced and imbalanced.
Would CCP please re-set 0.0 sov when they finally get around to fixing that broken mechanic?
Also, CCP please consider implementing a sov upgrade that would make it worthwhile to upgrade non-station systems (not that the current upgrades are worth bothering about for systems WITH stations). |
Apollo Eros
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 16:25:00 -
[293] - Quote
A couple of things.
CCP has said numerous times that the intention of F.W was to bridge into 0.0.
They have said multiple times they are not happy with current sov systems and it seems like we are going to be the guinea pigs for this.
I am all for trying new things. There have been numerous times friends have said there is no reason to flip systems since it really does not do anything. Well it looks like CCP is giving us a reason to plex.
I do like the ideas of still being able to dock but having increased costs in non friendly systems.
I am personally looking forward to the map filter changes. Oh ya!! |
Fleet Warpsujarento
State Protectorate Caldari State
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 16:51:00 -
[294] - Quote
So those grizzled veterans who are afraid of change, who are too emotionally rooted in the immediate, and who aren't important to you Hans, would they be the same ones who voted you into the CSM? |
Almity
Imperial Outlaws
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:00:00 -
[295] - Quote
Silence iKillYouu wrote:This is going to be so funny.
Now next time we take your system your all doomed!!!
ANNNND WE GET PAID TO KILL YOU ALL!!! HAHAHAH YES!!!!
iLaw we will sell u huola back for 50bill
Huola is a dump, keep it. If you ever see me living there again by my own free will I give you permission to Bat Phone PL.(P.S. I have a carrier for sale) We also get paid to kill you. And since your lot ever leaves Huola or Kourm I will make SO much more than you.
Last night we fought over Asghed. Well kind of. We fought over a Minor and a Medium plex once the system went vulnerable. Amarr was able to decontest it once but do to RESHIP time we could not hold on to it. In the hopes of controlling the minor we even used carriers to try and resupply us in a timely manner. By the end of the night we sat in a Major Plex with Armor BC and Guardians, The Minmatar hit the Control Bunker with about 20 T3 BC's. They had warped to the Acceleration Gate but decided not to fight. The timer was around two minuets when they finished killing the Control Bunker. Was very close.
When you plex now you need three different ship sizes. When you fight over systems people die, they use over heat, they take damage. This is not 0.0. We don't go in, hit a structure and leave. We have to stay and grind for hours and possibly soon days to flip a system. If we can't dock, resupply, or repair what can we do? Focus on one size plex? Only try to flip systems next to one we own?
|
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
172
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:05:00 -
[296] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
This assumption about LP store prices is a perfect example of why everyone should be waiting for CCP's final confirmation and explanation of all the changes in context with one another. They've already said they'll have a dev blog out this week, I highly recommend people wait until they know what the situation is before they just assume what they see on SiSi is static.
Go back and watch the Fan Fest presentation. It was there that the developers explained that the LP store prices are supposed to be on a sliding scale, according to victory conditions for ones faction. Winning militias are supposed to be getting discounts in the LP store, meaning you'd pay less for your faction gear than ever before. Losing factions would see their LP prices soar.
This way, there is always an incentive for the team that is behind to fight back, as every FW pilot will want to be cashing out their LP when it is worth the most isk. You might earn a ton while your faction is ahead, and than have it be worth less if you let the enemy beat you, providing an incentive to gold on to your LP, fight back, and than cash it out at peak value again.
yea I saw that with the fan fest videos and pretty much said the same thing anyone else did with half a brain. If the current winning side gets better prices while the losing sides prices get more extreme.. Who the hell is ever going to join the losing side?
The only thing that sort of mechanic will do is cause massive side shifts of all the non hardcore players along with the farmers to the side that makes the most profit. I mean really do you honestly think if I need ISK I'm gonna grind out 600k LP's for a Scorp navy issue if the guys on the other side are getting their Dommi Navy Issues for 150k lp or less?
I mean really do you think I'm gonna pay 1 million LP for a Navy Raven when I can just go pick up a few LVL V's and get them for 600k at the State War LP store?
LOL hell no I'm just gonna put a noob alt on the other side and farm their plexes when I need ISk.. That's all anyone with half a brain would do as well. That or I'd just swicth my ISK source to something else and move on. We aren't here to "grind" and that includes SOV. Most of us are here because we can make decent ISK and get PVP with out all the issues null sec politics or the small corp logistical nightmares of living in deep null. |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:16:00 -
[297] - Quote
Almity wrote: When you plex now you need three different ship sizes. When you fight over systems people die, they use over heat, they take damage. This is not 0.0. We don't go in, hit a structure and leave. We have to stay and grind for hours and possibly soon days to flip a system. If we can't dock, resupply, or repair what can we do? Focus on one size plex? Only try to flip systems next to one we own?
Not that I don't agree with you on this point, but there are ways of dealing with it. You could put up a staging pos in the system you're attacking with a ship maintenance array - each corp or alliance just needs a small to get it done. I think it brings some much needed logistical considerations to a fairly easy place to live, and I like that about the system.
As for last night, you guys were welcome to warp in on our fleet at any point, no one was making you sit in a major. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:23:00 -
[298] - Quote
Almity wrote:.. If we can't dock, resupply, or repair what can we do? Focus on one size plex? Only try to flip systems next to one we own? Naah, we set up shop in Kour, Kam and Lamaa .. nice little triangle .. let the mimes take everything else and then make a bazillion LP from offensive plex roams while keeping fighting in those three systems (or while out with carrier). Since we'd be "losing" the only LP on market would be ours as mission whores are removed from equation (no stations) providing a massive Amarr LP deficit so we can literally write our own cheques by cornering more markets than I can count The mimes on the other hand, with no significant offensive plexes available are forced to feed us by defensive plexing or suffer the whines from the locust swarm of mission whores that joined them to get discounts and easy missions.
If CCP insists on using us as guinea pigs for their beloved null-monkeys then I say we game the snot out of whatever we get thus breaking everything they tried doing.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:24:00 -
[299] - Quote
Almity wrote: When you plex now you need three different ship sizes. When you fight over systems people die, they use over heat, they take damage. This is not 0.0. We don't go in, hit a structure and leave. We have to stay and grind for hours and possibly soon days to flip a system. If we can't dock, resupply, or repair what can we do? Focus on one size plex? Only try to flip systems next to one we own?
This, plus 40 hour timer will make it very difficult to secure systems that are more than one jump from a station. Give defenders in home systems a huge advantage. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2317
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:24:00 -
[300] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: Would CCP please re-set 0.0 sov when they finally get around to fixing that broken mechanic?
Let's be crystal clear about what we're talking about here and cut through some of the hysteria. "Sov reset" is actually a misleading and inaccurate term for what is being discussed.
Huola has always been the sovereign space of the Amarr Empire. Auga has always been the sovereign space of the Minmatar Republic. That has never once been adjusted, modified, or changed, and continuity of this fact into the May 22 expansion would not truly be a "Sov reset". The argument that CCP should reset 0.0 sovereignty is a straw-man, because we're not actually talking about CCP moving sovereignty lines, though that is how everyone is interpreting this.
What CCP proposed at Fan Fest was removing the meaningless occupancy mechanic, and giving capsuleers the ability to fight over actual Sovereignty. Many pilots made an assumption at this point, and planned efforts to reinforce their occupation in enemy sovereign space, despite the fact that CCP was saying they would be removing occupancy entirely. These pilots assumed that CCP would just arbitrarily change occupancy into Sovereignty, which would indeed be a shuffling of who has sovereignty, a forced adjustment akin to fiddling with null sec Sov as you pointed out. Saying that current Sovereignty designations will remain the same following the May 22 is not truly a "Sov reset" and therefore not some radical action akin to what you are suggesting.
The bottom line is that neither CCP nor the CSM can advocate rules or changes that are based upon the actions capsuleers take in anticipation of a package of changes that was never set in stone, and still isn't set in stone. It's a tough pill to swallow for some, but every single patch there is a similar flurry of economic activity, and plenty of pilots have lost billions before speculating on future changes that may or may not come to pass. CCP cannot change that policy now and make Sovereignty adjustments simply because pilots moved into enemy sov space under the assumption it would magically become their own.
We could debate this all day, or we can simply and see what the final package and procedure is going to be when the dev blog comes out this week. Either way, players will have almost two weeks to gird themselves for the coming war and prepare their battle plans.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2317
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:28:00 -
[301] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote: Not that I don't agree with you on this point, but there are ways of dealing with it. You could put up a staging pos in the system you're attacking with a ship maintenance array - each corp or alliance just needs a small to get it done. I think it brings some much needed logistical considerations to a fairly easy place to live, and I like that about the system.
Siggy is absolutely right. Regardless of what everyone likes or doesn't like about the changes on the table, as long as there are capsuleers proposing creative solutions to the challenges presented before the Faction Warfare community, CCP has little incentive to change their course and cater to those that feel that one change or another makes things "impossible" or "hopeless".
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:29:00 -
[302] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:..Anyway I think it's irrelevant as I see no proof of any sort of sliding LP scale on SISI for the Stores. as Gal MIlitia stores have same costs as Caldari. They are probably planning on using a system similar to what is in place for mission payouts, so the scale won't start sliding on SiSi at all due to the low number of data points. Hell, when they added it to missions on TQ it took a few weeks (and umpteen thousand missions) to reach its equilibrium. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:34:00 -
[303] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:X Gallentius wrote: Would CCP please re-set 0.0 sov when they finally get around to fixing that broken mechanic?
Let's be crystal clear about what we're talking about here and cut through some of the hysteria. "Sov reset" is actually a misleading and inaccurate term for what is being discussed. There are many systems that have been held for a very long time and have had nothing to do with a last minute rush to secure systems. LOL at CCP if they decide to kick players out of systems they clearly and control - whether it's called Occupancy or Sovereignty. We'll adjust. Please give us some notice first so we can move massive amounts of ships out of our home systems due to no fault of our own. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2317
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:38:00 -
[304] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:X Gallentius wrote: Would CCP please re-set 0.0 sov when they finally get around to fixing that broken mechanic?
Let's be crystal clear about what we're talking about here and cut through some of the hysteria. "Sov reset" is actually a misleading and inaccurate term for what is being discussed. There are many systems that have been held for a very long time and have had nothing to do with a last minute rush to secure systems. LOL at CCP if they decide to kick players out of systems they clearly and control - whether it's called Occupancy or Sovereignty. We'll adjust. Please give us some notice first so we can move massive amounts of ships out of our home systems due to no fault of our own.
That's exactly why I've been encouraging them to release a dev blog ASAP, and I have little reason to believe that CCP is going to make any change like that without giving players plenty of notice. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
112
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:38:00 -
[305] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:X Gallentius wrote: Would CCP please re-set 0.0 sov when they finally get around to fixing that broken mechanic?
Let's be crystal clear about what we're talking about here and cut through some of the hysteria. "Sov reset" is actually a misleading and inaccurate term for what is being discussed. Huola has always been the sovereign space of the Amarr Empire. Auga has always been the sovereign space of the Minmatar Republic. That has never once been adjusted, modified, or changed, and continuity of this fact into the May 22 expansion would not truly be a "Sov reset". The argument that CCP should reset 0.0 sovereignty is a straw-man, because we're not actually talking about CCP moving sovereignty lines, though that is how everyone is interpreting this. What CCP proposed at Fan Fest was removing the meaningless occupancy mechanic, and giving capsuleers the ability to fight over actual Sovereignty. Many pilots made an assumption at this point, and planned efforts to reinforce their occupation in enemy sovereign space, despite the fact that CCP was saying they would be removing occupancy entirely. These pilots assumed that CCP would just arbitrarily change occupancy into Sovereignty, which would indeed be a shuffling of who has sovereignty, a forced adjustment akin to fiddling with null sec Sov as you pointed out. Saying that current Sovereignty designations will remain the same following the May 22 is not truly a "Sov reset" and therefore not some radical action akin to what you are suggesting. The bottom line is that neither CCP nor the CSM can advocate rules or changes that are based upon the actions capsuleers take in anticipation of a package of changes that was never set in stone, and still isn't set in stone. It's a tough pill to swallow for some, but every single patch there is a similar flurry of economic activity, and plenty of pilots have lost billions before speculating on future changes that may or may not come to pass. CCP cannot change that policy now and make Sovereignty adjustments simply because pilots moved into enemy sov space under the assumption it would magically become their own. We could debate this all day, or we can simply and see what the final package and procedure is going to be when the dev blog comes out this week. Either way, players will have almost two weeks to gird themselves for the coming war and prepare their battle plans.
Hans ... I understand u have to advocate as CSM .... However reaction of people here and in game actually shows the whole fw package is bad and it actually shows that there is no concept for low sec as a independent playground (last fun sandbox if u want). As it looks somebody in ccp wants just ruin last pieces of fun smaller scale warfare and is honestly for the first time driving me to alternative of leaving fw /disbanding no.1 caldari corp and potentially quiting eve (but as i am not ragequiter i am very careful with that).
Please nobody react to this with silly comments, as this will be on serious discussion with my directors once i will be back from trip in next 2 days.
If ccp does not understa ds comments made here, it does mean they dont play this part of game and therefor e dont want to fix/improve it. Just silly boy there wants us all run to null.
I allways wanted to null become the home for independent souls. Some scumbags want it to be silly place. **** the nullbears! IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
173
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:47:00 -
[306] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:There are many systems that have been held for a very long time and have had nothing to do with a last minute rush to secure systems. LOL at CCP if they decide to kick players out of systems they clearly and control - whether it's called Occupancy or Sovereignty. We'll adjust. Please give us some notice first so we can move massive amounts of ships out of our home systems due to no fault of our own.
Currently any of our staging systems can probably be taken by the jesus blob you can summon on saturday prime time to plex for 6 hours, nothing really factors into it. However, it seems you holding on the them is not necessarily so easy as has been show on few occasions. However, the inevitable last hour rushes will pretty much make mockery of this in all levels, no matter which side does it. |
Almity
Imperial Outlaws
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:59:00 -
[307] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:SigmaPi wrote: Not that I don't agree with you on this point, but there are ways of dealing with it. You could put up a staging pos in the system you're attacking with a ship maintenance array - each corp or alliance just needs a small to get it done. I think it brings some much needed logistical considerations to a fairly easy place to live, and I like that about the system. Siggy is absolutely right. Regardless of what everyone likes or doesn't like about the changes on the table, as long as there are capsuleers proposing creative solutions to the challenges presented before the Faction Warfare community, CCP has little incentive to change their course and cater to those that feel that one change or another makes things "impossible" or "hopeless".
Hans, your underhanded insults are not very fitting of your position. I don't feel Amarr is hopeless. I don't feel taking systems will be impossible. I do believe that if these changes are implemented many people who just want to fly and fight will leave. The Isk farmers will come in to replace those pilots though. Is getting the isk to replace that Dread you just lost more important to you than PVP?
My stance has always been make the changes that gets us the fights. From what I can see they are doing the opposite. Big fleets, small fleets, or solo. The incentive to plex now and kill the opposing faction will be GREAT! It will bring us fights. Not letting us dock and have assets spread around strategic systems makes for less PVP.
|
Sui'Djin
Black Rise Guerilla Forces
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 18:23:00 -
[308] - Quote
1. Glad you are watching this thread closely Hans, and post in your calm manner. Fortunately this thread is much less emotional than the testserver feedback thread, which I greatly appreciate. Continue your awesome work!
2. Maybe CCP should try a different approach concerning the station lockout and take smaller steps in this respect. There was consensus in other threads that station service denial would be preferable to a complete station lockout. And if a lockout should be needed, then this should only affect militia stations, not neutral ones.
3. Even if station lockout should be implemented (which I am definitevely opposed to), this will not break FW. There are so many workarounds (alts, Black Frog Service, POS's etc.) that it would be a nuisance, nothing more. Besides that I will at least give it a try.
4. Concerning plexing and LP stuff it looks like good advice for everybody to wait for the DevBlog that is announced for this week, and not speculate their ass off, this leads nowhere. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
72
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 18:54:00 -
[309] - Quote
Sui'Djin wrote:1. Glad you are watching this thread closely Hans, and post in your calm manner. Fortunately this thread is much less emotional than the testserver feedback thread, which I greatly appreciate. Continue your awesome work!
2. Maybe CCP should try a different approach concerning the station lockout and take smaller steps in this respect. There was consensus in other threads that station service denial would be preferable to a complete station lockout. And if a lockout should be needed, then this should only affect militia stations, not neutral ones.
3. Even if station lockout should be implemented (which I am definitevely opposed to), this will not break FW. There are so many workarounds (alts, Black Frog Service, POS's etc.) that it would be a nuisance, nothing more. Besides that I will at least give it a try.
4. Concerning plexing and LP stuff it looks like good advice for everybody to wait for the DevBlog that is announced for this week, and not speculate their ass off, this leads nowhere.
The fact that there are such simple workarounds is exactly why they should not do full station lockouts. It's purely illusory and easily avoided using the meta game. That makes it a silly, unnecessary, change.
The only reason one would do such a thing is if someone actually wants to ENCOURAGE the use of neutral alts. And the only reason I can think someone would want to do that is something I really don't want to contemplate.
Lock out station services and agents. That can't be exploited around (as easily).
Regardless, I am keeping an open mind and will wait for the devblog. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 18:55:00 -
[310] - Quote
Damar Rocarion wrote:Currently any of our staging systems can probably be taken by the jesus blob you can summon on saturday prime time to plex for 6 hours, nothing really factors into it. However, it seems you holding on the them is not necessarily so easy as has been show on few occasions. However, the inevitable last hour rushes will pretty much make mockery of this in all levels, no matter which side does it. Yeah probably. Like I said, at least give some advanced warning please. We have a lot of sh** in Nenna that needs to get sorted and moved if this goes through. Or perhaps all of our Gallente/Minmatar alliances currently in based in enemy space will make a mockery of the new system and quit FW until our alts plex and reconquer our home systems. Either way. We'll adapt I'm sure.
|
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
65
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 19:19:00 -
[311] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:The bottom line is that neither CCP nor the CSM can advocate rules or changes that are based upon the actions capsuleers take in anticipation of a package of changes that was never set in stone, and still isn't set in stone. It's a tough pill to swallow for some, but every single patch there is a similar flurry of economic activity, and plenty of pilots have lost billions before speculating on future changes that may or may not come to pass. CCP cannot change that policy now and make Sovereignty adjustments simply because pilots moved into enemy sov space under the assumption it would magically become their own.
I don't know what the amarr/minmatar front is like, but on the gallente side the gallente have been basing out of caldari systems for YEARS. Since late 2009 IIRC. This is most definitely not something we've done recently in anticipation of sov changes.
EDIT: where is the delete button? I see X G has basically said the same thing (was playing forum catchup). |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
112
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 19:26:00 -
[312] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Sui'Djin wrote:1. Glad you are watching this thread closely Hans, and post in your calm manner. Fortunately this thread is much less emotional than the testserver feedback thread, which I greatly appreciate. Continue your awesome work!
2. Maybe CCP should try a different approach concerning the station lockout and take smaller steps in this respect. There was consensus in other threads that station service denial would be preferable to a complete station lockout. And if a lockout should be needed, then this should only affect militia stations, not neutral ones.
3. Even if station lockout should be implemented (which I am definitevely opposed to), this will not break FW. There are so many workarounds (alts, Black Frog Service, POS's etc.) that it would be a nuisance, nothing more. Besides that I will at least give it a try.
4. Concerning plexing and LP stuff it looks like good advice for everybody to wait for the DevBlog that is announced for this week, and not speculate their ass off, this leads nowhere. The fact that there are such simple workarounds is exactly why they should not do full station lockouts. It's purely illusory and easily avoided using the meta game. That makes it a silly, unnecessary, change. The only reason one would do such a thing is if someone actually wants to ENCOURAGE the use of neutral alts. And the only reason I can think someone would want to do that is something I really don't want to contemplate. Lock out station services and agents. That can't be exploited around (as easily). Regardless, I am keeping an open mind and will wait for the devblog.
Most silly is there is nobody thinking in ccp about big scale. All these things look really like half finished nullbear ideas how lowsec could look like. Can ccp come with serious concepts for lowsec?
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
172
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 19:49:00 -
[313] - Quote
Sui'Djin wrote:1. Glad you are watching this thread closely Hans, and post in your calm manner. Fortunately this thread is much less emotional than the testserver feedback thread, which I greatly appreciate. Continue your awesome work!
2. Maybe CCP should try a different approach concerning the station lockout and take smaller steps in this respect. There was consensus in other threads that station service denial would be preferable to a complete station lockout. And if a lockout should be needed, then this should only affect militia stations, not neutral ones.
3. Even if station lockout should be implemented (which I am definitevely opposed to), this will not break FW. There are so many workarounds (alts, Black Frog Service, POS's etc.) that it would be a nuisance, nothing more. Besides that I will at least give it a try.
4. Concerning plexing and LP stuff it looks like good advice for everybody to wait for the DevBlog that is announced for this week, and not speculate their ass off, this leads nowhere.
No one is really speculating, The changes are on the test server for all to see. Usually when it's this close to a patch or update the changes are how they will end up in the game when the patch goes live on Tranq. They are on the test server to be tested but they aren't gonna make major changes from what is there now with out them being on the test server.
It's less than 20 days from time the new update gets released, so they aren't gonna be changing much from what you can see on the test server aside from things they haven't added yet. It will likely just be minor tweaks if that.
IMO I'd expect to see what is on the test server right now on patch day TranQ. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
388
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:23:00 -
[314] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Cearain wrote:Andiedeath wrote:
... . Why wouldn't new pilots want to join (Militia)? They will most likely have a home deep in home faction space. This will actually make FW better for new pilots and help build up the base of pilots.
I understand the Minmatar are giving the Amarr a HIDING currently. Think about it... Recruit more pilots. How do you think the Minmatar now have the numbers??? I remember only 4 months ago that roles were reversed.
I have always thought that that large null sec alliances are much easier for new pilots than faction war. They tell you how to fit your ships. The primaries are often just in alphabetical order. Nothing a noob does wrong is likely to cost a fight. They have forums with helpful information and pilots who are trying to recruit and help new players. So to the extent this makes faction war even more of a blob to win game, this is more newb friendly. Whether it teaches newbs what is really great about eve is a different question. Now like null sec its going to involve more teaching the lemmings to swim together. The quality small scale pvpers are unlikely to have a role in the actual occupancy combat anymore. With these changes faction war becomes like level 3 missions to null sec level 4 missions. You will basically have to do all the same sorts of grinds of null sec - just in smaller ships and for much lower pay. If I wanted to go recruiting and building connections and coodinating large fleets to grind stuff I would be in null sec going after allot bigger rewards. I really wonder why the people that like these changes just don't go to null sec and get a much bigger return for all the "effort" and "work" they do. I ldon't mean that as any sort of insult either. Its a sincere question. Null sec is the place where you get the big returns on hard work - if that is what you want in eve. It seems the basis of your debate is that Militia Corps are not capable (or willing) to support new pilots and helping them get the tools they need to succeed. It also suggests that Corps in Militia do not think about infrastructure to support their goals. Both these assumptions are incorrect for at least some Corps/Alliances. It is quite easy to set up a Corp like a Null Sec alliance now. Even with bully Pirate alliances like PL in our midst. All the Militias have to do is think more about the end game and what they need to do to get there. I seem to remember an old world book chapter... Habit 2: Begin with the end in mind. Applys very well here.
I really had high hopes that ccp was going to do something good for people who like frequent quality small scale pvp. Instead we get the null sec long timers and other "hard core" blob sec mechanics.
FW used to be distinct from null sec. Comparisions didn't apply. If these changes go through FW will be null sec sov lite. Who can recruit more lemmings to blob up with?
I did not say that faction war corps are not new player friendly. Many are new player friendly. But they tend to be friendly in a way that helps pilots develop individual pilots for small gang combat not give cookie cutter instructions. The null sec alliances have been the one to spoon feed people with their ship replacement programs and fitting requirements.
Now that we know ccp is intent on making faction war more like blob sec I have to ask:
When will ccp do something for people who like frequent quality small scale pvp? Is there anything on the horizon for us or can we finally admit they will never do anything for us? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
388
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:30:00 -
[315] - Quote
Sui'Djin wrote:1. Glad you are watching this thread closely Hans, and post in your calm manner. Fortunately this thread is much less emotional than the testserver feedback thread, which I greatly appreciate. Continue your awesome work!
2. Maybe CCP should try a different approach concerning the station lockout and take smaller steps in this respect. There was consensus in other threads that station service denial would be preferable to a complete station lockout. And if a lockout should be needed, then this should only affect militia stations, not neutral ones.
3. Even if station lockout should be implemented (which I am definitevely opposed to), this will not break FW. There are so many workarounds (alts, Black Frog Service, POS's etc.) that it would be a nuisance, nothing more. Besides that I will at least give it a try.
4. Concerning plexing and LP stuff it looks like good advice for everybody to wait for the DevBlog that is announced for this week, and not speculate their ass off, this leads nowhere.
We won't be able to dock in enemy occupied systems. 40 hours is the fastest we will be able to flip a system - assuming no resistance.
There is not much more I need to hear. This system is going in the wrong direction. If you want to orbit a button for 30 hours knowing the other side doesn't even have to respond until the 39th hour and blob you out go ahead. I'm sure you will be able to carebear a lot of lp for your effort and work. Its not what I am interested in. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
388
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:34:00 -
[316] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:SigmaPi wrote: Not that I don't agree with you on this point, but there are ways of dealing with it. You could put up a staging pos in the system you're attacking with a ship maintenance array - each corp or alliance just needs a small to get it done. I think it brings some much needed logistical considerations to a fairly easy place to live, and I like that about the system. Siggy is absolutely right. Regardless of what everyone likes or doesn't like about the changes on the table, as long as there are capsuleers proposing creative solutions to the challenges presented before the Faction Warfare community, CCP has little incentive to change their course and cater to those that feel that one change or another makes things "impossible" or "hopeless".
Yeah thats a good idea put up a pos in a system where you know you will just get outblobbed. Why didn't white noise think of that when they were fighting goons? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
ValentinaDLM
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
492
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:46:00 -
[317] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:SigmaPi wrote: Not that I don't agree with you on this point, but there are ways of dealing with it. You could put up a staging pos in the system you're attacking with a ship maintenance array - each corp or alliance just needs a small to get it done. I think it brings some much needed logistical considerations to a fairly easy place to live, and I like that about the system. Siggy is absolutely right. Regardless of what everyone likes or doesn't like about the changes on the table, as long as there are capsuleers proposing creative solutions to the challenges presented before the Faction Warfare community, CCP has little incentive to change their course and cater to those that feel that one change or another makes things "impossible" or "hopeless". Yeah thats a good idea put up a pos in a system where you know you will just get outblobbed. Why didn't white noise think of that when they were fighting goons? I got this great new idea from that, why don't we get POSes and for each milita POS we get Sov points and the person with the most points....oh wait, this seems familiar.... |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
390
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 23:56:00 -
[318] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:X Gallentius wrote: Would CCP please re-set 0.0 sov when they finally get around to fixing that broken mechanic?
Let's be crystal clear about what we're talking about here and cut through some of the hysteria. "Sov reset" is actually a misleading and inaccurate term for what is being discussed. Huola has always been the sovereign space of the Amarr Empire. Auga has always been the sovereign space of the Minmatar Republic. That has never once been adjusted, modified, or changed, and continuity of this fact into the May 22 expansion would not truly be a "Sov reset". The argument that CCP should reset 0.0 sovereignty is a straw-man, because we're not actually talking about CCP moving sovereignty lines, though that is how everyone is interpreting this. What CCP proposed at Fan Fest was removing the meaningless occupancy mechanic, and giving capsuleers the ability to fight over actual Sovereignty. Many pilots made an assumption at this point, and planned efforts to reinforce their occupation in enemy sovereign space, despite the fact that CCP was saying they would be removing occupancy entirely. These pilots assumed that CCP would just arbitrarily change occupancy into Sovereignty, which would indeed be a shuffling of who has sovereignty, a forced adjustment akin to fiddling with null sec Sov as you pointed out. Saying that current Sovereignty designations will remain the same following the May 22 is not truly a "Sov reset" and therefore not some radical action akin to what you are suggesting. The bottom line is that neither CCP nor the CSM can advocate rules or changes that are based upon the actions capsuleers take in anticipation of a package of changes that was never set in stone, and still isn't set in stone. It's a tough pill to swallow for some, but every single patch there is a similar flurry of economic activity, and plenty of pilots have lost billions before speculating on future changes that may or may not come to pass. CCP cannot change that policy now and make Sovereignty adjustments simply because pilots moved into enemy sov space under the assumption it would magically become their own. We could debate this all day, or we can simply and see what the final package and procedure is going to be when the dev blog comes out this week. Either way, players will have almost two weeks to gird themselves for the coming war and prepare their battle plans. Hans ... I understand u have to advocate as CSM .... However reaction of people here and in game actually shows the whole fw package is bad and it actually shows that there is no concept for low sec as a independent playground (last fun sandbox if u want). As it looks somebody in ccp wants just ruin last pieces of fun smaller scale warfare and is honestly for the first time driving me to alternative of leaving fw /disbanding no.1 caldari corp and potentially quiting eve (but as i am not ragequiter i am very careful with that)....
For me its not a matter of "rage"quitting but being rational and realizing CCP doesn't really care about frequent quality pvp, at all, and never will.
I love small scale pvp in eve. But it takes too long to find quality pvp fights in this game. 1 quality pvp fight in 2 hours is what i get on average and its pretty palthetic. I have been hopeful that CCP would adjust faction war in a way that would bring about many more quality pvp fights. I have been hanging on to this hope for much longer than any semi rational person would.
Now it seems CCP has decided faction war will not be a better source of frequent quality pvp. They just want it to be more like blobsec.
So ok what is ccp going to do for those of us who like frequent quality pvp?
Faction war was the obvious golden answer to this question and they are pissing it away. The only other option they discussed was the cheap lazy option of arenas. I hate that idea. So its unlikely that ccp will ever do anything to follow through on this dream of having frequent quality pvp. Its not a matter of "rage" quitting or emotion but a matter of finally looking at this game and ccps treatment of it rationally, and realizing they don't care about what I like.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
67
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 00:19:00 -
[319] - Quote
Cearain wrote: have been hopeful that CCP would adjust faction war in a way that would bring about many more quality pvp fights. I have been hanging on to this hope for much longer than any semi rational person would.
These words sum up the last 2 years of eve for me. |
Cromwell Savage
The Rock Hard Roosters Villore Accords
60
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 00:23:00 -
[320] - Quote
So let me review the logic here...
I'm -10 to the Caldari State faction (yes, I plex and run missions too...). I'm -10 to the State Protectorate corp (nom nom nom STAPRO pods...). I'm -10 with Concord (yarrrrr...).
In short - I can't get any worse standing in any way with regard to anything "caldari".
Yet....
As part of the Gal Mil, I will be denied docking rights to any - any - station in a lo-sec region that the Caldari "own" sov.
As a "nuetral" (not in Gal Mil), I will be able to use those exact same stations, in the exact same systems???
Yep....looks fine to me
PS - If I'm missing something with this...please let me know. Cause as I see it now....this proposed machanic is a steaming pile of warm dog poo...
PPS - Once again...I would propose docking denial (if even that) to militia owned stations only (FDU/STAPRO/etc...) and service denial in all others.
PPPS - Why do I feel like I'm pissing into the wind on this one.... |
|
Salicaz
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 01:24:00 -
[321] - Quote
Hans wrote: JagerblitzenThey've already said they'll have a dev blog out this week, I highly recommend people wait until they know what the situation is before they just assume what they see on SiSi is static.
I have a feeling this will be make or break on the station lock out issue.... it will probably show how much they are (not?) listening and will be like the "pants" blog of epic out-of-touch-with-the-community-ness. |
Shalee Lianne
Imperial Outlaws
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 03:41:00 -
[322] - Quote
To be clear. I think that a system reset isn't necessary if they do not implement station lockouts.
Station lockouts are whats going to make FW not worth playing, because it will be much easier to leave FW and go pirate on the wartargets than to have to deal with being locked out of stations. I've been hearing a lot of people say that their corps are going to pull out if that happens. Even on this thread, one of the main Amarrian corps and Caldari corps have stated it, they will pull out of FW.
I am all for making occupancy mean something. If the enemy owns a system then they should have some sort of upgrades certainly. They should be rewarded for their efforts, that is something everyone wants. No one is disputing that.
So make it mean something other than nearly impossible for the losing side to fight back. Make it so the pilots can't access services or use agents. But completely locking people out of stations is going to cause people to leave FW and maybe those who only have time for casual pvp that FW typically brings will leave EVE.
http://amarrian.blogspot.com/ -á~ Roleplay blog.http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog. |
Lord Azeroth
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 03:45:00 -
[323] - Quote
I'm getting my resume ready, perhaps back to Null ? or maybe just go pirate. |
Amarrian Slavetrader
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:21:00 -
[324] - Quote
I'm confused as to why people think it'll make such a big difference. Years ago the public amarr fleets staged out of Tuomuta (in highsec). Nothing here will stop anyone from basing out of highsec and that's a worst case scenario.
This may actually be useful since it'll penalize the flashy pirates that join fw for additional wartargets that don't require gcc. For those that aren't <-5, the 'cataclysmic consequences' of this change are vastly overblown. |
Jimmy Nickson
The Lucky Star
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:30:00 -
[325] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:I'm confused as to why people think it'll make such a big difference. Years ago the public amarr fleets staged out of Tuomuta (in highsec). Nothing here will stop anyone from basing out of highsec and that's a worst case scenario.
This may actually be useful since it'll penalize the flashy pirates that join fw for additional wartargets that don't require gcc. For those that aren't <-5, the 'cataclysmic consequences' of this change are vastly overblown.
Problem, atleast half amarr miltia is -5 or below. Fire ze missiles! |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
116
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:31:00 -
[326] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:I'm confused as to why people think it'll make such a big difference. Years ago the public amarr fleets staged out of Tuomuta (in highsec). Nothing here will stop anyone from basing out of highsec and that's a worst case scenario.
This may actually be useful since it'll penalize the flashy pirates that join fw for additional wartargets that don't require gcc. For those that aren't <-5, the 'cataclysmic consequences' of this change are vastly overblown.
The point is that u allways was able to operatemout in low sec. Also operating from Villore is pushing me to more blob warfare and not be able to pie too much ;( IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Amarrian Slavetrader
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:38:00 -
[327] - Quote
Jimmy Nickson wrote:Problem, atleast half amarr miltia is -5 or below.
And that's supposed to be the fault of the game designers?
So as I understand it then, the people whining have made a choice to go -5 by killing non-wts and now don't want to pay any penalties for it? Fascinating. |
Jimmy Nickson
The Lucky Star
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:40:00 -
[328] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:Jimmy Nickson wrote:Problem, atleast half amarr miltia is -5 or below. And that's supposed to be the fault of the game designers? So as I understand it then, the people whining have made a choice to go -5 by killing non-wts and now don't want to pay any penalties for it? Fascinating.
I'm fine with not going to high-sec because I'm pirate thats fine, but locking me out of station because I'm on the loosing side, I'm not gonna go rat in null-sec for 5 day straight, only to come back and make it go down to -5 again whilst still being miltiia. I'll just straight up and leave miltiia like many others. Fire ze missiles! |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
116
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:43:00 -
[329] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:Jimmy Nickson wrote:Problem, atleast half amarr miltia is -5 or below. And that's supposed to be the fault of the game designers? So as I understand it then, the people whining have made a choice to go -5 by killing non-wts and now don't want to pay any penalties for it? Fascinating.
In low sec .... Everyone should be pie .... This is bullshit ... IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Amarrian Slavetrader
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:44:00 -
[330] - Quote
Jimmy Nickson wrote:I'm fine with not going to high-sec because I'm pirate thats fine, but locking me out of station because I'm on the loosing side, I'm not gonna go rat in null-sec for 5 day straight, only to come back and make it go down to -5 again whilst still being miltiia. I'll just straight up and leave miltiia like many others.
I don't recall FW ever being intended to cater to flashy pirates, so I don't see the issue with flashies leaving militia. Actions should have consequences and this is an excellent example of how you can't always have your cake and eat it too. |
|
Jimmy Nickson
The Lucky Star
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:47:00 -
[331] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:Jimmy Nickson wrote:I'm fine with not going to high-sec because I'm pirate thats fine, but locking me out of station because I'm on the loosing side, I'm not gonna go rat in null-sec for 5 day straight, only to come back and make it go down to -5 again whilst still being miltiia. I'll just straight up and leave miltiia like many others. I don't recall FW ever being intended to cater to flashy pirates, so I don't see the issue with flashies leaving militia. Actions should have consequences and this is an excellent example of how you can't always have your cake and eat it too.
Have my cake and eat it to, wtf I'll just get more cake and eat it, CAKE FOR ALL! lol, but srsly what you just said makes no sense, the hole point of having cake is to eat it Fire ze missiles! |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:48:00 -
[332] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:I'm confused as to why people think it'll make such a big difference. Years ago the public amarr fleets staged out of Tuomuta (in highsec). Nothing here will stop anyone from basing out of highsec and that's a worst case scenario.... By 'years ago' I take it you mean the first 6 months of the war or so because that was the extent of it. Considering that most of us were "scared" of the big bad low-sec when we joined the duration was surprisingly short. Being able to base out of high-sec is a great option especially for new-comers, but creating a system where it becomes the only option in case of a side being outblobbed for a shortish period of time ..
My Wishful Thinking for summer: - Supers lose their immunity when away from null. - Titans lose ability to bridge to a location not in null. - Links are on-grid. - Most if not all sec. gain is moved to low-sec. - FW stations lockout enemy until enemy gains a foothold (ie. 10-15% VP) with services becoming available as system goes deeper and deeper into a contested state. - Defensive plexing is removed or made so fast as to be non-existent (biggest damn waste of time and counter intuitive thing around!). - NPC's are tweaked so that all sides have approximately same level of difficulty dealing with them. - NPC's do not interfere when not 'needed' (probably stupidly hard to code without opening door to exploitation). - Bunker grinds are replaced with live EHP akin to Incursion end 'boss'. - Pirate hulls are classified as 'one size up' in regards to plex access. - Missions get poison pills and elite frigs/cruisers included in target pool. - POS are modular and with security less like a circus tent.
Off to work, toodles. |
Amarrian Slavetrader
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:49:00 -
[333] - Quote
Jimmy Nickson wrote:[quote=Amarrian Slavetrader]Have my cake and eat it to, wtf I'll just get more cake and eat it, CAKE FOR ALL! lol, but srsly what you just said makes no sense, the hole point of having cake is to eat it
Fascinating. |
Liamn
Atrum Deus Vult
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:50:00 -
[334] - Quote
Just about done moving all my stuff out of FW low sec. Looking for a small-scale non-null sec PVP loc. Anyone have good suggestions? Seriously though, consider this: my character is both carebear and PVP. Station lockout caters to my carebear side GÇô I really donGÇÖt need any more of that; while limiting my PVP side, especially when belonging to an underdog faction. So the idea of service / agent lockout (NOT station lockout) seems to be a win GÇô win for both of my sides: it caters to the carebear (there is incentive on keeping those types of agents and services), while not affecting my PVP side (even as a PVP pilot, I really donGÇÖt give a rip if I donGÇÖt know where Bahamut is hiding).
IGÇÖve said it before, and I say it again: station lockout will result in the following: 1. Most, if not all veteran FW PVP pilots will leave. 2. Many new pilots will be attracted initially, leading to 3. Blob warfare (seems like this is familiar GÇô o yeah, this is where my null sec cup of tea shattered) 4. After everyone gets tired of this new type of 0.0 lite, they will leave 5. There will be no more targets to shoot GÇô the faction with the biggest blob will always have the upper hand, controlling most, if not all systems.
This will effectively kill FW. If that is CCPGÇÖs objective, then move forward; otherwise, they need to seriously reconsider the possible repercussions. Oh wait GÇô but there is a dev blog hope on the horizon? Station lockout is already on Sisi; so I am not holding my breath.
|
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
116
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:54:00 -
[335] - Quote
Liamn wrote:Just about done moving all my stuff out of FW low sec. Looking for a small-scale non-null sec PVP loc. Anyone have good suggestions? Seriously though, consider this: my character is both carebear and PVP. Station lockout caters to my carebear side GÇô I really donGÇÖt need any more of that; while limiting my PVP side, especially when belonging to an underdog faction. So the idea of service / agent lockout (NOT station lockout) seems to be a win GÇô win for both of my sides: it caters to the carebear (there is incentive on keeping those types of agents and services), while not affecting my PVP side (even as a PVP pilot, I really donGÇÖt give a rip if I donGÇÖt know where Bahamut is hiding).
IGÇÖve said it before, and I say it again: station lockout will result in the following: 1. Most, if not all veteran FW PVP pilots will leave. 2. Many new pilots will be attracted initially, leading to 3. Blob warfare (seems like this is familiar GÇô o yeah, this is where my null sec cup of tea shattered) 4. After everyone gets tired of this new type of 0.0 lite, they will leave 5. There will be no more targets to shoot GÇô the faction with the biggest blob will always have the upper hand, controlling most, if not all systems.
This will effectively kill FW. If that is CCPGÇÖs objective, then move forward; otherwise, they need to seriously reconsider the possible repercussions. Oh wait GÇô but there is a dev blog hope on the horizon? Station lockout is already on Sisi; so I am not holding my breath.
Dev blog is just rag of paper ... Sisi is hard code
Well if u can carebear only in low u can become one side interested pirate.
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
164
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 05:01:00 -
[336] - Quote
Shalee Lianne wrote:To be clear. I think that a system reset isn't necessary if they do not implement station lockouts.
Station lockouts are whats going to make FW not worth playing, because it will be much easier to leave FW and go pirate on the wartargets than to have to deal with being locked out of stations. I've been hearing a lot of people say that their corps are going to pull out if that happens. Even on this thread, one of the main Amarrian corps and Caldari corps have stated it, they will pull out of FW.
I am all for making occupancy mean something. If the enemy owns a system then they should have some sort of upgrades certainly. They should be rewarded for their efforts, that is something everyone wants. No one is disputing that.
So make it mean something other than nearly impossible for the losing side to fight back. Make it so the pilots can't access services or use agents. But completely locking people out of stations is going to cause people to leave FW and maybe those who only have time for casual pvp that FW typically brings will leave EVE.
Corps will leave Corps will join
It will shake it up alot and be exciting on all sides http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
Shalee Lianne
Imperial Outlaws
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 05:02:00 -
[337] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader, it would be much more productive to post your insight on your main character instead of a trolling alt.
Don't blame militia for being 'pirate'. Do we have some? Sure. But some of us wouldn't be negative if we didn't have to take sec standings and GCC for shooting neutral alts of the enemies. http://amarrian.blogspot.com/ -á~ Roleplay blog.http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog. |
Shalee Lianne
Imperial Outlaws
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 05:05:00 -
[338] - Quote
Silence, I doubt it will be exciting if everyone on the losing sides leave. http://amarrian.blogspot.com/ -á~ Roleplay blog.http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog. |
Amarrian Slavetrader
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 05:05:00 -
[339] - Quote
Shalee Lianne wrote:Amarrian Slavetrader, it would be much more productive to post your insight on your main character instead of a trolling alt.
Don't blame militia for being 'pirate'. Do we have some? Sure. But some of us wouldn't be negative if we didn't have to take sec standings and GCC for shooting neutral alts of the enemies.
Why? If your arguments are sound, then they should address my arguments, not my person. The identity of my 'main' is irrelevant if your arguments have a sound basis. |
Shalee Lianne
Imperial Outlaws
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 05:14:00 -
[340] - Quote
Because it looks like you're trolling. :) http://amarrian.blogspot.com/ -á~ Roleplay blog.http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog. |
|
Amarrian Slavetrader
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 05:17:00 -
[341] - Quote
Shalee Lianne wrote:Because it looks like you're trolling. :)
Saying thus does not make it so. |
Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
164
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 05:29:00 -
[342] - Quote
there will always be Amarr. Your lil group is only lil.
Anyway we are pirates we will always have targets. And stations to dock in
We will sell u huola ? http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 05:54:00 -
[343] - Quote
Station lockouts are a good thing. I will advocate for those, but there also has to be a complete reset of occupied territory and more FW based stations in all of the FW constellations. There also needs to be a mechanic in place to make these stations wanted and needed.
One idea I came up with while I thought about it was that enemy controlled stations should offer level 5 FW missions once you gain occupancy that are used for furthering your occupancy. If they made these missions much like Incursions I think it would be a great mechanic in the FW system. That would cause conflict and create the feel of a real warzone as both sides would have NPCs fighting along with the fleets you would need to complete the missions. Complete so many missions and a new line opens up for the next level of occupancy, until eventually you are fighting faction capitals/supers/titans to raise your constellation to the last level of occupancy.
So you would plex to get the system contested, flip the system to your control and then send the constellation into an incursion like state where you would run missions out of the flipped systems station for the rest of the constellation and raised levels in occupancy. |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 06:01:00 -
[344] - Quote
Personally I'm looking forward to the changes. Spent the weekend taking my ships to high sec from low in preparation. I expect the people who plex will find that they are actually getting rewards now and stay in FW. The people who are mission runners and never plex will leave militia - that's a good thing.
They only change I would like that isn't coming is the complete removal of NPC Navys.
I'm glad the militias will actually be like proper military forces with the ability to control and own a system. Many are comparing the upcoming changes to Null Sov. This is nowhere near the boring structure grinding that Null sec is. Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 06:06:00 -
[345] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:I'm confused as to why people think it'll make such a big difference. Years ago the public amarr fleets staged out of Tuomuta (in highsec). Nothing here will stop anyone from basing out of highsec and that's a worst case scenario.... By 'years ago' I take it you mean the first 6 months of the war or so because that was the extent of it. Considering that most of us were "scared" of the big bad low-sec when we joined the duration was surprisingly short. Being able to base out of high-sec is a great option especially for new-comers, but creating a system where it becomes the only option in case of a side being outblobbed for a shortish period of time .. My Wishful Thinking for summer: - Supers lose their immunity when away from null. - Titans lose ability to bridge to a location not in null. - Links are on-grid. - Most if not all sec. gain is moved to low-sec. - FW stations lockout enemy until enemy gains a foothold (ie. 10-15% VP) with services becoming available as system goes deeper and deeper into a contested state. - Defensive plexing is removed or made so fast as to be non-existent (biggest damn waste of time and counter intuitive thing around!). - NPC's are tweaked so that all sides have approximately same level of difficulty dealing with them. - NPC's do not interfere when not 'needed' (probably stupidly hard to code without opening door to exploitation). - Bunker grinds are replaced with live EHP akin to Incursion end 'boss'. - Pirate hulls are classified as 'one size up' in regards to plex access. - Missions get poison pills and elite frigs/cruisers included in target pool. - POS are modular and with security less like a circus tent. Off to work, toodles.
I dont agree with all of this (no defensive plexing? Why?) but the vast majority of these are long overdue. |
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
174
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 06:11:00 -
[346] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Well as many mentioned one of the scenarios is to become pie .... If they will implement gcc changes ... But amarr/caldari will probably loose, because some litlle prick in ccp wants ...hurray
It's the little prick frenchie you can see in fanfest video. But hey, CCP is totally unbiased, they only have a dev working on game feature which mainly benefits the side aforementioned dev is playing for.
Oh and CCP Soundwave (or whoever the AT commentator was) basicly calling whole caldari miltiia a bunch of non-talented carebears while simultaneously performing fellatio for gallente militia and then bitching and moaning when caldari miltiia outperformed gallentes in AT.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2317
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 06:14:00 -
[347] - Quote
Hrett wrote: I dont agree with all of this (no defensive plexing? Why?)
Those that watched the Fan Fest presentation will recall that the idea is that your LP that is invested in the Infrastructure Hub is what is used to pay for the offensive plexing rewards. Thus, when attackers invade your space they are actually stealing your hard-earned LP, and causing your system upgrades to be slowly stripped away unless you do something about it.
So the reward for defensive plexing is that you continue to enjoy your system upgrades. Oh yeah, and still be able to dock. That should be a pretty big motivator to chase off the enemy without needing to paid on top of that.
Some of this may not be very testable on the server if there arent enough of you taking space, upgrading it, fighting each other, gaining LP rewards, contesting systems, etc. It's extremely difficult to test an ongoing static war on SiSi, and thats exactly why there's so many assumptions, misinformation, and panic flying about the individual changes when not in the context of a living, breathing, conflict on Tranquility.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2317
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 06:19:00 -
[348] - Quote
I thought this would be a great time to pause, take a breath, and listen to the developers talk about the expansion in their own words.
Eve Online: the controversy, the economy and the coming Inferno Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Vine Naroo
Roth Financial Services
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 06:24:00 -
[349] - Quote
I'd like to see decreased penalties for killing non-FW neuts in a FW contested low sec system and the removal of militia chat. The use of neuts and troll spies, while it may be a 'fact' of warfare is not well reflected in the game logic. Let militia pilots establish their own system of trust in lieu of chat as we see in other play models in the game. A CCP sponsored militia chat is pvp welfare, let the griefers work for it like in other parts of the game. Shooting neuts w/little to no sec status hit should also be considered. Neut alts dont really capture the engaging spirit of fw imo or the sandbox intentionality of pvp.
Those two items ideas enhance proposed changes which are long overdue. |
Jill Igan
Necessary Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 06:26:00 -
[350] - Quote
Meh.
I don't have a problem with neutral alts, I can deal with uninvolved parties reaping the fruits of my labors, lockouts don't worry me. Pies, powerblocks, caps and spies, FW folk have had to deal with since it's inception and have adapted, more or less. What worries me is that the game design of FW continues to be focused on plexing with no iteration on the plexing mechanics themselves, while the repercussions are being made far more severe.
Plexing is the only game mechanic which requires you to do pretty much nothing but wait provided the enemy don't want to/can't force you to stop....waiting. For 20 min. Even mining is more interactive ffs. There's a damn good reason why most of FW doesn't plex, it's boring as hell. More than that it is damn frustrating at times. The only thing gayer than a falcon decloaking and jamming to deny you a kill is a little red cross doing the same thing. ECM is too large a force multiplier to allow NPCs to wield in PVP. I stay the hell away from Caldari plexes for just this reason, I'd LIKE to fight in a semi-arena environment occasionally but I know the odds say I'll be jammed at some point in the fight which allows my target to escape. Add to this that NPC ewar mechanics are fuzzy at best and it quickly becomes an overwhelming deterrent that encourages Gallente to bring +1 to tank the jams. Then there are the obvious agro and standings bugs with the rats but I'll let Damar beat that horse as he's so fond of doing so.
The last time I plexed feverishly was for the nomination for AT6 team captain. I know that might irk some and cause them to think I haven't given plexing a fair try. However, the mechanics never changed, and I felt I had seen enough to not be bothered again. From what those I've talked to, most of the Gallente old guard feel the same way. Personally, I might get back into FW to see the new system (left last April) and might even try to flip a system 'for the Federation' but I'll continue to think that engaging an equal force with in a Caldari plex is an exercise in futility.
tl;dr And now, when FW finally gets looked at, the NPC imbalance isn't, nor are the plexing mechanics themselves getting looked at, despite becoming (apparently) a more integral part of the system. Does no one else see a problem with this?!
PS: Hanz, militia teams in the AT. Tell CCP to bring them back, you know you want to see it |
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2317
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 07:13:00 -
[351] - Quote
Jill Igan wrote: tl;dr And now, when FW finally gets looked at, the NPC imbalance isn't, nor are the plexing mechanics themselves getting looked at, despite becoming (apparently) a more integral part of the system. Does no one else see a problem with this?!
I do!! NPC balance has been a big part of the feedback I've given CCP. I think its important to remind everyone that Inferno will likely be rolled out in phases, much like every other expansion in the last couple of years, and on top of that there is a team of Dev's working on FW upgrades all the way into the next expansion. There's all kinds of things to work on, improve, add, and change, and lots of time to do it. If there's something you'd like to see in Faction Warfare that isn't in this very first round of Inferno, CCP might be working on it and just hasn't said so yet.
Jill Igan wrote: PS: Hanz, militia teams in the AT. Tell CCP to bring them back, you know you want to see it
Militia teams in the AT are already here. Alliances are now enlisted in Faction Warfare, so there is absolutely nothing stopping any militia members from enlisting a team in the coming tournament. I hope to see you all there, give them hell and show the 0.0 dudes what the militias are really made of! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Mike Whiite
Progressive State State Section 9
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 07:59:00 -
[352] - Quote
Could we please tek personal standing with an agent in acount.
I'm a single toon player, to young to have several characters trained to a level that would make a useful alt, I do run anomalies, missions and PI operations in several lowsec area's to pay for the PvP and to do something different every now and then.
I've build up standing with several agents in those stations. it would be nice to have those let you in to there stations. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 08:01:00 -
[353] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Personally I'm looking forward to the changes. Spent the weekend taking my ships to high sec from low in preparation. I expect the people who plex will find that they are actually getting rewards now and stay in FW. The people who are mission runners and never plex will leave militia - that's a good
.
Well actually mission runners in FW usually only do them because they is no better way to make isk in low sec. I knowim keen to actually get something for Plexing and PVP. It will make a massive difference to the way I make iskies. It will be much more fun. |
Cpt Cosmic
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 08:09:00 -
[354] - Quote
the station lockout does not even make sense. why should a station full of soldiers belonging to a ceratin faction suddenly shoot their own dudes just because some alt with cheap ships did some boring plexing and shoot a bunker?
some services denied and other services very expensive, that would make sense, but station lockout? suddenly the crew of the whole station gets magically replaced cause someone did boring PvE activity? |
Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
164
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 08:18:00 -
[355] - Quote
Cpt Cosmic wrote:WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
116
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 11:12:00 -
[356] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:Could we please tek personal standing with an agent in acount.
I'm a single toon player, to young to have several characters trained to a level that would make a useful alt, I do run anomalies, missions and PI operations in several lowsec area's to pay for the PvP and to do something different every now and then.
I've build up standing with several agents in those stations. it would be nice to have those let you in to there stations.
I will impersonate ccp and csm and will answer u .... "our logs show we dont care about u, pay for subscription and stfu. I am ccp fw litlle prick and i will make u all nullbears, because i know what is best for you".
Honeslty i think it is time to show some middlefinger to ccp again .... Devbog is probably gonna be useless pile of empty words as it is usually.
Btw ccp did great job with crucible and they are going to masive fallback with inferno. IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
116
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 11:20:00 -
[357] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:Personally I'm looking forward to the changes. Spent the weekend taking my ships to high sec from low in preparation. I expect the people who plex will find that they are actually getting rewards now and stay in FW. The people who are mission runners and never plex will leave militia - that's a good
. Well actually mission runners in FW usually only do them because they is no better way to make isk in low sec. I knowim keen to actually get something for Plexing and PVP. It will make a massive difference to the way I make iskies. It will be much more fun.
It is funny how people think there are armies of mission runners. Reality is that there are only few now, because all isk farmers are now in Incursions business. CCP have u ever tried to check records of people who in reality run fw missions? Most of them went during first fw mission nerf reballance 1.5 year ago. Which comes to the guy who is responsible for fw in ccp ... Have u done ur homewrok? I am afraid no. IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 11:25:00 -
[358] - Quote
You seem mad snake, are you mad that we kicked you out of Rak forever? |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 11:36:00 -
[359] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote: Btw ccp did great job with crucible and they are going to masive fallback with inferno.
Couldn't disagree more. Just because there is one item (albeit a big item) that people don't agree on, the vast majority of the changes are things that everyone likes.
CCP are perfectly entitled to pursue their vision for their game - even though I personally don't like the station lock out, I can't argue that it will add some much needed spice to the arena. My one serious objection would be the combination of station lockout and reset - anything other than these two together I (and everyone else) can work around if they want to. Hell, even if both go through, I still will most likely stick with it, because FW is basically all I've known for the past few years. I can change with the times, and so can you.
Stop being a bunch of closed off and narrow viewed elitests and flex with the game. |
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 11:40:00 -
[360] - Quote
Shalee Lianne wrote:Amarrian Slavetrader, it would be much more productive to post your insight on your main character instead of a trolling alt.
Don't blame militia for being 'pirate'. Do we have some? Sure. But some of us wouldn't be negative if we didn't have to take sec standings and GCC for shooting neutral alts of the enemies.
: Shoot neutral alts of the enemies with your own neutral alts?
I know, that's some real revolutionary thinking there. I can fully understand why you didn't have that thought on your own, I mean you did choose to be Amarr after all. |
|
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 12:07:00 -
[361] - Quote
I'd rather just shoot them myself, tbh. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 12:18:00 -
[362] - Quote
Hrett wrote:I dont agree with all of this (no defensive plexing? Why?) but the vast majority of these are long overdue. Simply put, because it is/should be easier to bolt a door than to break it down .. crude analogy perhaps, but fairly accurate.
Also based on assumption that people will act as they have done for years and not actually do much of anything unless critical mass is achieved. In plexing terms (after the 3-5x change is added) that means blobbing the crap out of a system for a few hours and then leaving an alt force/skeleton crew to prevent too much defensive work from succeeding .. almost exact replica of null sov "fights" back in the day (still get ticks thinking of all the damn pos mods I repped up *shudder*). The only way to discourage the urge to blob is to neuter its effectiveness .. with timers being 'equal' it is possible (and most often used) to have a single semi-mobile blob that comes in to swat anyone interfering with the timer babysitters. Were timers to be 'skewed' with defensive ones taking only 1/5th or less time, the attacked HAS to be 'in force' in each and every plex which removes the blob from the equation quite nicely I should think
Attacking sovereign space should require constant pressure and vigil. It was semi-present at the height of the post-DT plexing era when several systems were held in enemy space .. take a plex anywhere and it could pop elsewhere, was a horror if occupancy was spread out all over the place .
IbanezLaney wrote:Personally I'm looking forward to the changes.... Mission runners will only leave if they have no alternative to make the LP. If NPC balance/Plex mechanics are not addressed there is a high probability that most of them will swap bombers for stabbed interceptors and get LP from plexes instead. If you were around back when it occurred to people that raising militia rank/standing was a fast track to maxed faction standing and the free Navy BPCs it yielded .. goddamn stabbed mothers were all over the damn place |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
154
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 12:22:00 -
[363] - Quote
Sov reset would really push the bounds of stupidity, 2 of the largest and arguably most active alliances in minmatar FW base in 'amarr systems', I wouldn't want to gamble on them rejoining FW after they are forced to drop because they cant get their stuff.
Be impressive to finally see FW get some attention and instead of brining in anyone new it just gets most of the active player base to quit. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 12:50:00 -
[364] - Quote
Can a CCP dev please answer if they planning on implementing the lockouts with the rewards?
Yes, this is a loaded question. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:01:00 -
[365] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Sov reset would really push the bounds of stupidity, 2 of the largest and arguably most active alliances in minmatar FW base in 'amarr systems', I wouldn't want to gamble on them rejoining FW after they are forced to drop because they cant get their stuff.
Be impressive to finally see FW get some attention and instead of brining in anyone new it just gets most of the active player base to quit. So would you rather have a month's warning or a blob come and flip your system a few hours before the patch? And if the latter happened would those alliances drop from FW to get their stuff?
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
391
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:01:00 -
[366] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:Jimmy Nickson wrote:Problem, atleast half amarr miltia is -5 or below. And that's supposed to be the fault of the game designers? So as I understand it then, the people whining have made a choice to go -5 by killing non-wts and now don't want to pay any penalties for it? Fascinating.
OK its our "fault" that we like to pvp and you can't get enough of it in low sec without going gcc.
But we are at least asking ccp to change the mechanics so that there will be more frequent pvp.
What has happened to player proposals like Jack Dent's?
They are lost in ccp's mad rush to make fw like null sec.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cpt Cosmic
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:15:00 -
[367] - Quote
Silence iKillYouu wrote:Cpt Cosmic wrote:WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA u mad? maybe you can just leave the forum for people that have something meaningful to say. we dont need troll scum like you here.
Cearain wrote:They are lost in ccp's mad rush to make fw like null sec. cant wait to see alot of people leaving FW because they have to haul their stuff out of low sec and never bothering with it again lowsec wasteland here I come |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
154
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:17:00 -
[368] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Sov reset would really push the bounds of stupidity, 2 of the largest and arguably most active alliances in minmatar FW base in 'amarr systems', I wouldn't want to gamble on them rejoining FW after they are forced to drop because they cant get their stuff.
Be impressive to finally see FW get some attention and instead of brining in anyone new it just gets most of the active player base to quit. So would you rather have a month's warning or a blob come and flip your system a few hours before the patch? And if the latter happened would those alliances drop from FW to get their stuff?
There has been plenty time for planning leading up to the patch, I'd rather it came down to the depth of planning and giving people a chance to try and hold systems than just CCP saying 'no'.
Even a small force can defend a system if they are willing to use slightly grey tactics, less of a pain than moving 50 odd ships per pilot. Also a reset is basically saying 'you know what you have been fighting over for the last few years? yeah that was all for nothing, absolutely nothing, now that we are adding consequences to what you do we are undoing all that.'
At the end of the day people with fewer systems will always argue for a reset and people with more will always argue against it. I'm sure plenty of people will quit FW either way its just up to CCP to decide which way it will be. |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:37:00 -
[369] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote: Also a reset is basically saying 'you know what you have been fighting over for the last few years? yeah that was all for nothing, absolutely nothing, now that we are adding consequences to what you do we are undoing all that.' We already realize that we are fighting for nothing. Most people are in FW for the cheap LP store and the free wardec. Occupancy means absolutely nothing. If they are going to add such drastic changes to FW they need to do it from a fresh start. A reset is the only way to do something so drastic. Then we can start anew where lack of action means you lose out on your nice things. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
392
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:40:00 -
[370] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Sov reset would really push the bounds of stupidity, 2 of the largest and arguably most active alliances in minmatar FW base in 'amarr systems', I wouldn't want to gamble on them rejoining FW after they are forced to drop because they cant get their stuff.
Be impressive to finally see FW get some attention and instead of brining in anyone new it just gets most of the active player base to quit.
Well we have 2 weeks before inferno hits and they still haven't told us whether they will do a reset or not.
Should players do plexes now or is it time completely wasted?
I tend to agree that a reset would be a slap to people have done plexing for the last few years - especially if ccp has any plans to do station lock outs on may 22nd or any time in the future.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:41:00 -
[371] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:...Even a small force can defend a system if they are willing to use slightly grey tactics, less of a pain than moving 50 odd ships per pilot. Also a reset is basically saying 'you know what you have been fighting over for the last few years?.... The Amarr/Shakorite front has been pretty much static for the entire duration. Been a few weeks/months here and there with pockets being taken and retaken so on the whole we have already fought for nothing .. as trench wars goes it has been pretty much on par.
NB: Since I haven't seen you in space I can only assume you are "new", so consider it an FYI .. ask around if you don't believe a dirty loyalist
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:49:00 -
[372] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote: There has been plenty time for planning leading up to the patch, I'd rather it came down to the depth of planning and giving people a chance to try and hold systems than just CCP saying 'no'.
Plenty of time planning using a plexing system that offers no tangible reward and too easy to take in short if you have the numbers when your opponents sleep.
Quote:Even a small force can defend a system if they are willing to use slightly grey tactics, less of a pain than moving 50 odd ships per pilot. Also a reset is basically saying 'you know what you have been fighting over for the last few years? yeah that was all for nothing, absolutely nothing, now that we are adding consequences to what you do we are undoing all that.' A small force cannot defend a system 24/7. We saw that yesterday in Rakapas. I don't think it had been contested more than a few times in weeks. Last night, during Cal militia's slow time, Gallente's worked plexes and took it. There's a very good chance we'll get it back, but if that were the day before the patch, there would be little to no chance of getting it back.
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:At the end of the day people with fewer systems will always argue for a reset and people with more will always argue against it. I'm sure plenty of people will quit FW either way its just up to CCP to decide which way it will be. I ask you again: Several weeks of warning or several hours? I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
392
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:49:00 -
[373] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:SigmaPi wrote: Not that I don't agree with you on this point, but there are ways of dealing with it. You could put up a staging pos in the system you're attacking with a ship maintenance array - each corp or alliance just needs a small to get it done. I think it brings some much needed logistical considerations to a fairly easy place to live, and I like that about the system. Siggy is absolutely right. Regardless of what everyone likes or doesn't like about the changes on the table, as long as there are capsuleers proposing creative solutions to the challenges presented before the Faction Warfare community, CCP has little incentive to change their course and cater to those that feel that one change or another makes things "impossible" or "hopeless".
Alaekessa wrote:Shalee Lianne wrote:Amarrian Slavetrader, it would be much more productive to post your insight on your main character instead of a trolling alt.
Don't blame militia for being 'pirate'. Do we have some? Sure. But some of us wouldn't be negative if we didn't have to take sec standings and GCC for shooting neutral alts of the enemies. : Shoot neutral alts of the enemies with your own neutral alts? I know, that's some real revolutionary thinking there. I can fully understand why you didn't have that thought on your own, I mean you did choose to be Amarr after all.
Hans
Have you heard enough "creative solutions" people can use to adapt to this null sec lite system yet?
First we have the suggestion that if you are outnumbered you should just put up a pos in enemy space.
Now this: Let's train pvp alts that can be used to kill neutrals, so our main fw pvp characters can dock in high sec.
Hopefully even you can see this is going nowhere. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:55:00 -
[374] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Hrett wrote:I dont agree with all of this (no defensive plexing? Why?) but the vast majority of these are long overdue. Simply put, because it is/should be easier to bolt a door than to break it down .. crude analogy perhaps, but fairly accurate. Also based on assumption that people will act as they have done for years and not actually do much of anything unless critical mass is achieved. In plexing terms (after the 3-5x change is added) that means blobbing the crap out of a system for a few hours and then leaving an alt force/skeleton crew to prevent too much defensive work from succeeding .. almost exact replica of null sov "fights" back in the day (still get ticks thinking of all the damn pos mods I repped up *shudder*). The only way to discourage the urge to blob is to neuter its effectiveness .. with timers being 'equal' it is possible (and most often used) to have a single semi-mobile blob that comes in to swat anyone interfering with the timer babysitters. Were timers to be 'skewed' with defensive ones taking only 1/5th or less time, the attacked HAS to be 'in force' in each and every plex which removes the blob from the equation quite nicely I should think Attacking sovereign space should require constant pressure and vigil. It was semi-present at the height of the post-DT plexing era when several systems were held in enemy space .. take a plex anywhere and it could pop elsewhere, was a horror if occupancy was spread out all over the place . IbanezLaney wrote:Personally I'm looking forward to the changes.... Mission runners will only leave if they have no alternative to make the LP. If NPC balance/Plex mechanics are not addressed there is a high probability that most of them will swap bombers for stabbed interceptors and get LP from plexes instead. If you were around back when it occurred to people that raising militia rank/standing was a fast track to maxed faction standing and the free Navy BPCs it yielded .. goddamn stabbed mothers were all over the damn place
I dont agree on the defensive plexing thing - I see the kind of fights you describe now.
I do think they should give LP for defensive plexing once a system goes contested. Otherwise people will only fight for station systems... |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
155
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:57:00 -
[375] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:NB: Since I haven't seen you in space I can only assume you are "new", so consider it an FYI .. ask around if you don't believe a dirty loyalist
How kind. Look at your most recent loss mail.
Well I am pretty new to Mini (1 year) I played FW from patch day with a few breaks.
FW is a generally cyclic process without one side having a huge advantage it swings back and forth, hence keeping a roughly stable front, with only a few exceptions.
A reset will in all likelihood result in Late Night and Iron Oxide rage-quitting FW which will probably disrupt that balance. No one side in milita wants to completely crush their opponent. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:59:00 -
[376] - Quote
Here's a solution to the reset question:
Have a grace period until the lockouts go into effect. Give time to draw people into FW for the rewards and work within the new framework where it will be easier to defend. Those plexing under the "easier" mechanic now will still get systems that are easier to defend, but those who live in low sec and will likely easily hold their home systems after the changes won't have to worry about being locked out from enemies using the easier mechanic. If they can't take and hold their homes during the grace period, it wasn't really their home to begin with.
I would go with a grace period of at least a month. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
118
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:24:00 -
[377] - Quote
It is funny how this thread is overlooked by the ccp.....in next few weeks i expect some devblog bullshit and then ccp will forget on fw after sov debacle.
Well so far so good my sec status was burning anyway so it is time to run some alt driven plexes and join some of my russian buddies;)
Or ccp will catch thier nose in a moment two hours before patch and will include the sov reset .... Because the ccp fw prick looks like the guy who knows what he is doing. And in that moment i will be lauging all weeks after the patch because gals and minnies willbe locked in their stations forever.
Ok i think it is time to create fw shadow zone to ignore ccps idiocy and have some fun. IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
393
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:37:00 -
[378] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:Here's a solution to the reset question:
Have a grace period until the lockouts go into effect. Give time to draw people into FW for the rewards and work within the new framework where it will be easier to defend. Those plexing under the "easier" mechanic now will still get systems that are easier to defend, but those who live in low sec and will likely easily hold their home systems after the changes won't have to worry about being locked out from enemies using the easier mechanic. If they can't take and hold their homes during the grace period, it wasn't really their home to begin with.
I would go with a grace period of at least a month.
So on your proposal would ccp reset after a grace period or not?
I really think the fact that many of the players are so concerned about a reset just proves that ccp is making faction war occupancy more of grind instead of more fun. If they were making it so the plexing involved more fun quality pvp then no one would care whether there was a reset or not.
I know I would be looking forward to plexing and getting tons of great pvp if I had thought that is what there changes would accomplish.
Instead, the lock outs will make faction war more of a hassle and the long times to flip systems will make plexing even a longer grind. This is why a system reset is such a hot topic to begin with. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:39:00 -
[379] - Quote
Cearain wrote:[quote=Dirk Smacker] So on your proposal would ccp reset after a grace period or not?
No. That would negate the purpose of the grace period. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
393
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:46:00 -
[380] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:It is funny how this thread is overlooked by the ccp.....in next few weeks i expect some devblog bullshit and then ccp will forget on fw after sov debacle.
Well so far so good my sec status was burning anyway so it is time to run some alt driven plexes and join some of my russian buddies;)
Or ccp will catch thier nose in a moment two hours before patch and will include the sov reset .... Because the ccp fw prick looks like the guy who knows what he is doing. And in that moment i will be lauging all weeks after the patch because gals and minnies willbe locked in their stations forever.
Ok i think it is time to create fw shadow zone to ignore ccps idiocy and have some fun.
I think ccp is trying to implement some bad ideas here. However I am betting they are not putting out a dev blog because they are in fact reading to see if there are good reasons to change the system.
I think there have been allot of good reasons posted why the station lock out will not be good for faction war and I think ccp will listen.
I think once that horrible lock out idea is jettisoned then they can work on faction war through iterations so that many of the other issues can be sorted out over time.
That is becoming a pretty obvious course for anyone who is reasonably listening to the feedback. And I think ccp is reasonable and they are listening.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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|
Galatica789
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 15:48:00 -
[381] - Quote
Shalee Lianne wrote:To be clear. I think that a system reset isn't necessary if they do not implement station lockouts.
Station lockouts are whats going to make FW not worth playing, because it will be much easier to leave FW and go pirate on the wartargets than to have to deal with being locked out of stations. I've been hearing a lot of people say that their corps are going to pull out if that happens. Even on this thread, one of the main Amarrian corps and Caldari corps have stated it, they will pull out of FW.
I am all for making occupancy mean something. If the enemy owns a system then they should have some sort of upgrades certainly. They should be rewarded for their efforts, that is something everyone wants. No one is disputing that.
So make it mean something other than nearly impossible for the losing side to fight back. Make it so the pilots can't access services or use agents. But completely locking people out of stations is going to cause people to leave FW and maybe those who only have time for casual pvp that FW typically brings will leave EVE.
They should make it so you still cant dock in stations for a year if yoru former Ammar/Squid, (A year from the date you left) Its not stupid, Just makes sure you guys finnally pay for EVER trying to uppose the winning side |
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 15:53:00 -
[382] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:SigmaPi wrote: Not that I don't agree with you on this point, but there are ways of dealing with it. You could put up a staging pos in the system you're attacking with a ship maintenance array - each corp or alliance just needs a small to get it done. I think it brings some much needed logistical considerations to a fairly easy place to live, and I like that about the system. Siggy is absolutely right. Regardless of what everyone likes or doesn't like about the changes on the table, as long as there are capsuleers proposing creative solutions to the challenges presented before the Faction Warfare community, CCP has little incentive to change their course and cater to those that feel that one change or another makes things "impossible" or "hopeless". Alaekessa wrote:Shalee Lianne wrote:Amarrian Slavetrader, it would be much more productive to post your insight on your main character instead of a trolling alt.
Don't blame militia for being 'pirate'. Do we have some? Sure. But some of us wouldn't be negative if we didn't have to take sec standings and GCC for shooting neutral alts of the enemies. : Shoot neutral alts of the enemies with your own neutral alts? I know, that's some real revolutionary thinking there. I can fully understand why you didn't have that thought on your own, I mean you did choose to be Amarr after all. Hans Have you heard enough "creative solutions" people can use to adapt to this null sec lite system yet? First we have the suggestion that if you are outnumbered you should just put up a pos in enemy space. Now this: Let's train pvp alts that can be used to kill neutrals, so our main fw pvp characters can dock in high sec. Hopefully even you can see this is going nowhere.
You sure the name of your corp isn't Imperial Forum Outlaws? |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:07:00 -
[383] - Quote
Hrett wrote: I do think they should give LP for defensive plexing once a system goes contested. Otherwise people will only fight for station systems...
You just can't give LP to an afk condor. You just can't.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Galatica789
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:15:00 -
[384] - Quote
I want cyno jammers!!!!! |
Shalee Lianne
Imperial Outlaws
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:31:00 -
[385] - Quote
Lols. It is clear by reading this thread that there are some people who care about Faction War and the game over all and the rest just want to be clever trolls. I say want, because they are failing at being clever but do have the troll part down quite well.
CCP has asked for feedback and that is what we are giving them. If they move forward with station lock outs the consequences are that many corporations are going to quit FW because the rewards of FW will not be enough to stay in. It will be far easier to be out of FW than in it. http://amarrian.blogspot.com/ -á~ Roleplay blog.http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog. |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
118
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:58:00 -
[386] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:Hrett wrote: I do think they should give LP for defensive plexing once a system goes contested. Otherwise people will only fight for station systems...
You just can't give LP to an afk condor. You just can't. Non station systems will be isk farms ... IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 17:03:00 -
[387] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:At the end of the day people with fewer systems will always argue for a reset and people with more will always argue against it.
Amarr/Caldari do not favor a reset because we hope that 'mommy CCP' will kick you out of your systems. The most obvious reason to believe that we do not favor a reset for that reason: all of the suggestions, always and only from Amarr and Caldari militia, to the effect that 'mommy' clearly loves you more than us. The disfavored child knows better than to seek favoritism from the parent.
To repeat myself, a 'reset' is desirable as an easy-to-communicate solution to the problem of you guys seizing systems immediately before the patch. At 10:00 on patch day, taking a system requires one time zone; some hours later, taking a system requires 3-4 timezones. My better solution for CCP is that they change the TZ requirement early, and without announcing it. This freezes in place the prevailing conditions instead of inviting you to **** us over. |
Lil Nippy
State War Academy Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 17:04:00 -
[388] - Quote
Wow this is amazing...CCP finally, finallyyyy, FINALLY dedicates a patch to FW and there is NOTHING BUT BITCHING.
Who cares about station lock outs?! It makes perfect sense and will create real tangible battle lines that currently FW needs. So what if you can't camp Auga 3rd 24/7 completely ruining the warzone for everybody else? Who cares if you can't stage 20 capitals in your enemies home station so you can get those totally awesome hour long capital fights and capital mails? Shut up with the whining. Station hugging and station camping is not fun.
By locking out stations all that will happen is 1) more fights on gates, 2) more fights in plexes and 3) a advantage for the faction being camped in a station because they do not have to worry about the enemy docking in their station and undocking one of the capitals they have stored there once the fight starts.
Get over yourselves. This patch, if implimented correctly, will give FW a NEEDED boost in fun. System upgrades and real faction sov? More LP for kills and LP for plexes? No more no lifer corps camping enemy markets (Auga 3rd ahem)? Count me in.
THANK YOU CCP and do not listen to these FW drama queens who have been dragging the feature down for so long. |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
118
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 17:06:00 -
[389] - Quote
Lil Nippy wrote:Wow this is amazing...CCP finally, finallyyyy, FINALLY dedicates a patch to FW and there is NOTHING BUT BITCHING.
Who cares about station lock outs?! It makes perfect sense and will create real tangible battle lines that currently FW needs. So what if you can't camp Auga 3rd 24/7 completely ruining the warzone for everybody else? Who cares if you can't stage 20 capitals in your enemies home station so you can get those totally awesome hour long capital fights and capital mails? Shut up with the whining. Station hugging and station camping is not fun.
By locking out stations all that will happen is 1) more fights on gates, 2) more fights in plexes and 3) a advantage for the faction being camped in a station because they do not have to worry about the enemy docking in their station and undocking one of the capitals they have stored there once the fight starts.
Get over yourselves. This patch, if implimented correctly, will give FW a NEEDED boost in fun. System upgrades and real faction sov? More LP for kills and LP for plexes? No more no lifer corps camping enemy markets (Auga 3rd ahem)? Count me in.
THANK YOU CCP and do not listen to these FW drama queens who have been dragging the feature down for so long. Hello alt ... U definitely have no idea about fw... Right? IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Princess Nexxala
The Rock Hard Roosters Villore Accords
35
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 17:09:00 -
[390] - Quote
I normally wouldn't agree with anything gal says, but give me a ******* CYNO JAMMER CCP!
Galatica789 wrote:I want cyno jammers!!!!!
The rest is fine with me if you include the ability to cyno jam FW low sec via LP or whatnot.
To everyone bitching about losing docking rights HTFU, it will be a nice change of pace and get you lazy slouches to move around a bit more for a fight. (talking to fellow gals here)
On the subject of a sov reset, I can understand both sides and really don't care either way.
Adapt.
Is sexy time? |
|
Almity
Imperial Outlaws
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 17:52:00 -
[391] - Quote
[/quote] You sure the name of your corp isn't Imperial Forum Outlaws?[/quote]
We could make alts and put them in that corp and post here. Because trolling is how you communicate your interests to CCP. |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 17:58:00 -
[392] - Quote
Lil Nippy wrote:Wow this is amazing...CCP finally, finallyyyy, FINALLY dedicates a patch to FW and there is NOTHING BUT BITCHING.
"I do not know the first thing about human beings."
Allow me to explain: we are not talking about the features we like because we like them. We do not hope to change anyone's mind about features that everyone desires. If one person says "hey, X is cool", and then nobody says "no it's not!", then none of the people who agree that X is cool feel a need to speak up. However, if one person says "hey, X is bad", and then X is already on SiSi, then everyone who agrees that X is bad has an interest in talking about it right away.
And in general, when you agree with someone, it's sufficient to nod, or 'like', or join the applause. When you disagree with someone, a shake of the head, or a 'dislike', or a 'boo', or a terse "u r a tard", is usually not sufficient to communicate your disagreement. You need words and sentences, and they will need the same when they disagree with what you've said, and threads will grow.
You want something other than bitching? Here: I really look forward to getting LP for plexing, because that is what I'm doing most of the time.
Quote:Who cares about station lock outs?! It makes perfect sense
I've said, if it helps you, don't tihnk about it as "station lock-out", think about it as "everybody mostly ignores the stations for no apparent reason". You can easily RP either behavior of the stations, but in your 'perfect sense' scenario, the capsuleers are behaving oddly. Actually, even the stations are behaving oddly: why should they allow me to contract my stuff to a third party? Why hasn't my stuff been seized and turned over to the Republic? And meanwhile they'll shoot my GCC'd alt but still let him dock, repair what their guns did to his ship, fill his cargohold with Republic tags, and then shoot at him again as he flies away?
No, 'perfect sense' here only means 'like nullsec'. Wait, actually it's: 'like sov nullsec'. Well, get rid of 95% of the stations, remove gate guns, remove sec status hits, let me use bombs and bubbles, and then we'll talk.
Quote: and will create real tangible battle lines that currently FW needs.
They already exist. Are Amarr taking systems in the Essin constellation? Are Minmatar taking a lot of systems in Vaaram? No, both of us are in back-and-forth in Jayai and Semou, with some action in Hed.
Quote:So what if you can't camp Auga 3rd 24/7 completely ruining the warzone for everybody else?
Hey, have you heard of instas? Do you realize that the session-change timer is now like two picoseconds long, so you can undock, stop your ship, look around, and then dock with almost complete invulnerability? You know that we don't have bubbles?
And are you playing the same game I am? Because I never see anything but brief, opportunistic station camping.
I see a ton of gate camping, though, which is a mechanic without instas or (equivalent) 'redocking', and I'll still see a ton of it after Inferno.
Quote:By locking out stations all that will happen is 1) more fights on gates, 2) more fights in plexes and 3) a advantage for the faction being camped in a station because they do not have to worry about the enemy docking in their station and undocking one of the capitals they have stored there once the fight starts.
For reasons already given, these are completely insubstantial advantages. Can you think of any more substantial advantages?
Not-quoting due to a forum limitation: "Get over yourselves."
"Waaaah, stop talking about subjects that don't interest me. You should talk about other things."
NO. U. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
174
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 18:29:00 -
[393] - Quote
I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
When I first started FW I was on Minmatar side and to be honest Amarr used to curb stomp us pretty much when every they wanted to. Minmatar used to trow total crap gangs at Amarr's Guardian supported Abaddon & Geddon gangs to the point there wasn't anything Minmatar guys could do aside from lose a lot of ships or stay docked.
Minmatar's "late night crew" was only a successful late night crew because that's the only time zone Amarr couldn't dominate them.
At the same time Caldari was curb stomping Gallentte and was getting medals for owning every system while Gals were crying about NPC's and that plexing didn't matter. Meanwhile their high sec systems were camped and they couldn't do much about it. Caldari blobs ruled their space and even started coming down to Minmatar space because they couldn't get fights out of Galentte.
Now a year or so later roles are reversed for the time being and Gals/Mins seem to have forgotten how they used to get curb stomped daily while trying to be smug as if it never happened.
It would be very funny to have seen these changes go into effect back then as all these posts would be reversed with Gals & Minmatar crying for resets or that their side wouldn't be able to compete because they are out blobbed and Caldari & Amarr guys telling them to man up.
Sadly I think the Cal vs Gal fight in-regard to plexing was going just fine as even vs Gals better numbers in the important prime times, Caldari has been stepping it up but still needs some work. This would have sorted it's self out with a bit more time but sadly I think these new changes are going to set the fight back because it's gonna make FW a lot less desirable.
The gang PVP is already pretty meh as it's usually just one gang ganking a few random guys from one side or the other but I think it's soon to turn to crappy null sec Sov fighting where each side tries to blob out a system to allow the capture to be as quick as possible.
Anyway all you guys that have complained & whined for years about plexing should matter.. Welp here yea go you got what you asked for likely at the cost of FW being a good place to get some not so serious space ships.
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 18:35:00 -
[394] - Quote
- The new FW window is on SiSi and is blank.
- You can still afk some offensive plexes after killing the first spawn.
- Most datacores cost more than their current market price before you spend LP.
- The upgrades don't do much for pure PvP pilots. Not sure what the "buffer" upgrade does.
- 10000 LP for an offensive minor plex.
- FW Missions haven't been changed.
- Lockouts in effect.
I can envision a "we can't wait to make even more changes to this feature" promise statement in the near future.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 18:44:00 -
[395] - Quote
All these rabid posting by Hidden Snake and Dirk makes me laugh. It's rather hilarious that they were not really so worried before, but for the first time ever SLAPD sat down and decided to plex a system to ensure IBS's removal. Within a day we have flipped Rakapas, and we have now found many brave allies fighting to keep IBS from living in Rakapas. Suddenly IBS appears and cries about it over and over. Now there was no "we were sleeping" there were many fights in system as squids tried to thwart our glorious jihad.
SImply put, you're outgunned Snake, I'd suggest you join REVOLUTION or Sacred Fire Alliance. Then you can run to the corners or the map or simply do what you do best with them. Blob and run. Not that they even have anything to show for it, and soon you won't either. |
marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 18:49:00 -
[396] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
When I first started FW I was on Minmatar side and to be honest Amarr used to curb stomp us pretty much when every they wanted to. Minmatar used to trow total crap gangs at Amarr's Guardian supported Abaddon & Geddon gangs to the point there wasn't anything Minmatar guys could do aside from lose a lot of ships or stay docked.
Minmatar's "late night crew" was only a successful late night crew because that's the only time zone Amarr couldn't dominate them.
At the same time Caldari was curb stomping Gallentte and was getting medals for owning every system while Gals were crying about NPC's and that plexing didn't matter. Meanwhile their high sec systems were camped and they couldn't do much about it. Caldari blobs ruled their space and even started coming down to Minmatar space because they couldn't get fights out of Galentte.
Now a year or so later roles are reversed for the time being and Gals/Mins seem to have forgotten how they used to get curb stomped daily while trying to be smug as if it never happened.
It would be very funny to have seen these changes go into effect back then as all these posts would be reversed with Gals & Minmatar crying for resets or that their side wouldn't be able to compete because they are out blobbed and Caldari & Amarr guys telling them to man up.
Sadly I think the Cal vs Gal fight in-regard to plexing was going just fine as even vs Gals better numbers in the important prime times, Caldari has been stepping it up but still needs some work. This would have sorted it's self out with a bit more time but sadly I think these new changes are going to set the fight back because it's gonna make FW a lot less desirable.
The gang PVP is already pretty meh as it's usually just one gang ganking a few random guys from one side or the other but I think it's soon to turn to crappy null sec Sov fighting where each side tries to blob out a system to allow the capture to be as quick as possible.
Anyway all you guys that have complained & whined for years about plexing should matter.. Welp here yea go you got what you asked for likely at the cost of FW being a good place to get some not so serious space ships.
The medals for every system was YEARS ago, also curbstomping in plexing is not curbstomping in PVP. Your post is just filled with angry drivel and you are mad that you don't have the skills, isk and willpower to contend with Gal Mil. Guess you're done? I for one won't miss any of the fights FW gives me, SLAPD is a pirate corp, we'll get our kills and fights no matter what.
|
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
74
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 18:52:00 -
[397] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:Hrett wrote: I do think they should give LP for defensive plexing once a system goes contested. Otherwise people will only fight for station systems...
You just can't give LP to an afk condor. You just can't.
You can speed tank afk offensive plex too. Hence my suggestion of only giving it to both sides when contested.
|
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 18:56:00 -
[398] - Quote
marketjacker wrote:All these rabid posting by Hidden Snake and Dirk makes me laugh. It's rather hilarious that they were not really so worried before, but for the first time ever SLAPD sat down and decided to plex a system to ensure IBS's removal. Within a day we have flipped Rakapas, and we have now found many brave allies fighting to keep IBS from living in Rakapas. Suddenly IBS appears and cries about it over and over. Now there was no "we were sleeping" there were many fights in system as squids tried to thwart our glorious jihad.
SImply put, you're outgunned Snake, I'd suggest you join REVOLUTION or Sacred Fire Alliance. Then you can run to the corners or the map or simply do what you do best with them. Blob and run. Not that they even have anything to show for it, and soon you won't either.
Will be funny if we take it back day before the patch... We will see what will happen ... I am just on vacation ....
....and so far i am more concerned about direction of lowsec....
.....ad to plexing ... Well we fliped it once if u remember ... I think it was the day u slefdestructed ur second or third tengu? IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:01:00 -
[399] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:marketjacker wrote:All these rabid posting by Hidden Snake and Dirk makes me laugh. It's rather hilarious that they were not really so worried before, but for the first time ever SLAPD sat down and decided to plex a system to ensure IBS's removal. Within a day we have flipped Rakapas, and we have now found many brave allies fighting to keep IBS from living in Rakapas. Suddenly IBS appears and cries about it over and over. Now there was no "we were sleeping" there were many fights in system as squids tried to thwart our glorious jihad.
SImply put, you're outgunned Snake, I'd suggest you join REVOLUTION or Sacred Fire Alliance. Then you can run to the corners or the map or simply do what you do best with them. Blob and run. Not that they even have anything to show for it, and soon you won't either. Will be funny if we take it back day before the patch... We will see what will happen ... I am just on vacation .... ....and so far i am more concerned about direction of lowsec.... .....ad to plexing ... Well we fliped it once if u remember ... I think it was the day u slefdestructed ur second or third tengu? Crap ... Failed to troll again
Please link the proof I've ever lost a Tengu to IBS. Oh wait.........
Again, you will lose your base, you already have. SLAPD owns you. Pay us 5 bil and you can stay.
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:07:00 -
[400] - Quote
Hrett wrote: You can speed tank afk offensive plex too. Hence my suggestion of only giving it to both sides when contested.
Or they could make you clear the npc's in order to cap.
But I haven't heard anything about touching the plexes themselves.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:09:00 -
[401] - Quote
marketjacker wrote:All these rabid posting by Hidden Snake and Dirk makes me laugh. If you weren't trolling weakly I'd ask for proof of my rabidness. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:39:00 -
[402] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:marketjacker wrote:All these rabid posting by Hidden Snake and Dirk makes me laugh. If you weren't trolling weakly I'd ask for proof of my rabidness.
5 billion and you can stay. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2317
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:44:00 -
[403] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
When I first started FW I was on Minmatar side and to be honest Amarr used to curb stomp us pretty much when ever they wanted to. Minmatar used to throw total crap gangs at Amarr's Guardian supported Abaddon & Geddon gangs to the point there wasn't anything Minmatar guys could do aside from lose a lot of ships or stay docked.
Minmatar's "late night crew" was only a successful late night crew because that's the only time zone Amarr couldn't dominate them.
At the same time Caldari was curb stomping Gallentte and was getting medals for owning every system while Gals were crying about NPC's and that plexing didn't matter. Meanwhile their high sec systems were camped and they couldn't do much about it. Caldari blobs ruled their space and even started coming down to Minmatar space because they couldn't get fights out of Galentte.
Now a year or so later roles are reversed for the time being and Gals/Mins seem to have forgotten how they used to get curb stomped daily while trying to be smug as if it never happened.
It would be very funny to have seen these changes go into effect back then as all these posts would be reversed with Gals & Minmatar crying for resets or that their side wouldn't be able to compete because they are out blobbed and Caldari & Amarr guys telling them to man up.
Absolutely true. We used to be a bunch of bickering tribes more obsessed with a killboard race against each other for 3p33n reasons than actually cooperating to win the war. The Amarr on the other hand had superior organization and a centralized sense of discipline. And you're right, we cut our teeth by throwing crap against well armored BS fleets with proper logi, hoping to take down an expensive ship or two before we lost our cheap stuff. Why did we do this? Because it was fun, and we had a laugh.
We griped and griped and griped about the Amarr "blobbing" us to death, and whined about how they would always outship us and outnumber us. It won't be the last time either, eventually they will bounce back and we'll be back to whining again. Welcome to Faction Warfare, where its always the enemy's fault for not "playing fair".
Times change. Winners and losers change. The stakes themselves are about to change. But War? War never changes. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:46:00 -
[404] - Quote
marketjacker wrote:
5 billion and you can stay.
mental maverick said he'd pay for us
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:48:00 -
[405] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Mutnin wrote:I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
When I first started FW I was on Minmatar side and to be honest Amarr used to curb stomp us pretty much when ever they wanted to. Minmatar used to throw total crap gangs at Amarr's Guardian supported Abaddon & Geddon gangs to the point there wasn't anything Minmatar guys could do aside from lose a lot of ships or stay docked.
Minmatar's "late night crew" was only a successful late night crew because that's the only time zone Amarr couldn't dominate them.
At the same time Caldari was curb stomping Gallentte and was getting medals for owning every system while Gals were crying about NPC's and that plexing didn't matter. Meanwhile their high sec systems were camped and they couldn't do much about it. Caldari blobs ruled their space and even started coming down to Minmatar space because they couldn't get fights out of Galentte.
Now a year or so later roles are reversed for the time being and Gals/Mins seem to have forgotten how they used to get curb stomped daily while trying to be smug as if it never happened.
It would be very funny to have seen these changes go into effect back then as all these posts would be reversed with Gals & Minmatar crying for resets or that their side wouldn't be able to compete because they are out blobbed and Caldari & Amarr guys telling them to man up.
Absolutely true. We used to be a bunch of bickering tribes more obsessed with a killboard race against each other for 3p33n reasons than actually cooperating to win the war. The Amarr on the other hand had superior organization and a centralized sense of discipline. And you're right, we cut our teeth by throwing crap against well armored BS fleets with proper logi, hoping to take down an expensive ship or two before we lost our cheap stuff. Why did we do this? Because it was fun, and we had a laugh. We griped and griped and griped about the Amarr "blobbing" us to death, and whined about how they would always outship us and outnumber us. It won't be the last time either, eventually they will bounce back and we'll be back to whining again. Welcome to Faction Warfare, where its always the enemy's fault for not "playing fair". Times change. Winners and losers change. The stakes themselves are about to change. But War? War never changes.
Until CCP implements the proposed changes, and your previous foes either drop milita and/or leave the area.
I'm glad CCP finally got around to killing FW. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:49:00 -
[406] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: We griped and griped and griped about the Amarr "blobbing" us to death, and whined about how they would always outship us and outnumber us. It won't be the last time either, eventually they will bounce back and we'll be back to whining again. Welcome to Faction Warfare, where its always the enemy's fault for not "playing fair".
Times change. Winners and losers change. The stakes themselves are about to change. But War? War never changes.
Have they figured out LP compensation for kills yet?
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
69
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:49:00 -
[407] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Hrett wrote: I dont agree with all of this (no defensive plexing? Why?)
Thus, when attackers invade your space they are actually stealing your hard-earned LP, and causing your system upgrades to be slowly stripped away unless you do something about it. ... So the reward for defensive plexing is supposed to be that you continue to enjoy your system upgrades. Oh yeah, and still be able to dock. That should be a pretty big motivator to chase off the enemy without needing to paid on top of that.
Before this, I was against the station stuff, but otherwise thought this would be a net positive. Taking what we now know, I think CCP will accomplish what I previously thought impossible: Making factional warfare worse than it is now.
First, here is what we know based on the test server thread and Hans's gracious information in this thread - Plexing doesn't actually give you any LP, it merely steals LP from the opposing militia's IHUB - System ownership gives you the ability to dock in that station, and to put LP into iHUB to get small benefits to station services
So, there will be practically no-one putting LP into the IHUB when it can be siphoned off while the person is sleeping, especially when the rewards for putting LP into the IHUB are so minimal.
Therefore, plexing will have no rewards.
The only incentive then to plex will be the stick of not being able to dock in the station. All this does is add to the only motivation that exists now to plex, Schadenfreude, and that has generally not been a great motivator up to now.
The only reason left to stay in FW instead of going pirate will be access to FW missions. And I predict that a lot of people will train alts to pick up missions and then run them with their faction aligned pirate main. That is assuming that level V's aren't more profitable after the FW LP store changes (which we don't really know much about yet). Especially since other pirate gangs in the region will have a significant advantage in the FW warzone being able to dock up/repair etc.
In conclusion, CCP managed to make FW worse. I did not think it possible. |
Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:52:00 -
[408] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote: Or they could make you clear the npc's in order to cap.
Why haven't they implemented this?
It seems like an easy fix. There's plenty of missions where the spawn has to be cleared before either a gate is opened or a can is dropped.
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:52:00 -
[409] - Quote
chatgris wrote: - Plexing doesn't actually give you any LP, it merely steals LP from the opposing militia's IHUB
Wait, is that how it works?
I didn't get LP in Nenn on SiSi the night of the changes. I assumed they fixed it when I got 10k today.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:54:00 -
[410] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Hrett wrote: I dont agree with all of this (no defensive plexing? Why?)
Thus, when attackers invade your space they are actually stealing your hard-earned LP, and causing your system upgrades to be slowly stripped away unless you do something about it. ... So the reward for defensive plexing is supposed to be that you continue to enjoy your system upgrades. Oh yeah, and still be able to dock. That should be a pretty big motivator to chase off the enemy without needing to paid on top of that. Before this, I was against the station stuff, but otherwise thought this would be a net positive. Taking what we now know, I think CCP will accomplish what I previously thought impossible: Making factional warfare worse than it is now. First, here is what we know based on the test server thread and Hans's gracious information in this thread - Plexing doesn't actually give you any LP, it merely steals LP from the opposing militia's IHUB - System ownership gives you the ability to dock in that station, and to put LP into iHUB to get small benefits to station services So, there will be practically no-one putting LP into the IHUB when it can be siphoned off while the person is sleeping, especially when the rewards for putting LP into the IHUB are so minimal. Therefore, plexing will have no rewards. The only incentive then to plex will be the stick of not being able to dock in the station. All this does is add to the only motivation that exists now to plex, Schadenfreude, and that has generally not been a great motivator up to now. The only reason left to stay in FW instead of going pirate will be access to FW missions. And I predict that a lot of people will train alts to pick up missions and then run them with their faction aligned pirate main. Especially since other pirate gangs in the region will have a significant advantage in the FW warzone being able to dock up/repair etc. In conclusion, CCP managed to make FW worse. I did not think it possible.
This. "Winferno"? More like yet another failed expansion, when they kill off FW. I guess we should find an object to shoot in protest?
|
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
69
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:55:00 -
[411] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:chatgris wrote: - Plexing doesn't actually give you any LP, it merely steals LP from the opposing militia's IHUB
Wait, is that how it works? I didn't get LP in Nenn on SiSi the night of the changes. I assumed they fixed it when I got 10k today.
Look at my original post, I quoted that directly from Hans. Since he's on the CSM and we have no dev blog otherwise, I think that he's most likely correct.
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 19:58:00 -
[412] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Dirk Smacker wrote:chatgris wrote: - Plexing doesn't actually give you any LP, it merely steals LP from the opposing militia's IHUB
Wait, is that how it works? I didn't get LP in Nenn on SiSi the night of the changes. I assumed they fixed it when I got 10k today. Look at my original post, I quoted that directly from Hans. Since he's on the CSM and we have no dev blog otherwise, he's my primary source of information. No, I was just trying to convey shock and alarm. It makes perfect sense as to why I wasn't getting LP before. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 20:01:00 -
[413] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
While you are taking note of those who are smacking you now, don't forget to take note of those that are NOT smack talking you. I for one dislike the smack coming from my side just as much as the smack that comes from your side.
|
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
74
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 20:08:00 -
[414] - Quote
Kade Jeekin wrote:Dirk Smacker wrote: Or they could make you clear the npc's in order to cap.
Why haven't they implemented this? It seems like an easy fix. There's plenty of missions where the spawn has to be cleared before either a gate is opened or a can is dropped.
Yep. I'd be perfectly happy with this. Do eeet CCP. |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 20:35:00 -
[415] - Quote
chatgris wrote:First, here is what we know based on the test server thread and Hans's gracious information in this thread - Plexing doesn't actually give you any LP, it merely steals LP from the opposing militia's IHUB - System ownership gives you the ability to dock in that station, and to put LP into iHUB to get small benefits to station services
So, there will be practically no-one putting LP into the IHUB when it can be siphoned off while the person is sleeping, especially when the rewards for putting LP into the IHUB are so minimal.
Therefore, plexing will have no rewards.
The only incentive then to plex will be the stick of not being able to dock in the station. All this does is add to the only motivation that exists now to plex, Schadenfreude, and that has generally not been a great motivator up to now.
What follows is almost pure speculation.
Systems with less LP investment are easier to take for this reason. So LP itself is a way to prevent a system from being taken while you sleep. It's siphoned off, yeah, but at a limited rate whereas you can invest any amount of LP into it whenever you want. DT's significant again though: you'll lose a ton of LP if you can't close the non-respawning plexes. So the new system will mark on the map exactly where everybody's (in-FW) home bases are and which systems are especially contentious: those systems will be hardened, and everything else will be dead, never upgraded.
So I've these questions:
1. Why should anyone ever upgrade a system they don't live in?
2. Why should anyone even want to live in a FW system when they must keep paying LP to make it 'safe'? Medical clones aren't expensive to begin with, and you rarely need to upgrade them.
3. Are there LP rewards for plexing a system without investment - which may be nearly all of them?
4. If the answer to #3 is "no, but you'll get rewarded when you flip it", why should anyone defend a system that they haven't invested anything in and that the enemy will then also not invest in after they take it? When they could flip it back...
I can understand the expectation that the people who fight for occupancy even when it "doesn't matter" will continue to fight for it, and invest LP all around, but nobody wants to be a chump. If the only fresh source of LP is missions or kills, then people who invest LP in unlived-in systems are denying themselves isk and faction ships to fly, and only so that enemy plexers can take that LP and (if they aren't also chumps) spend it on isk and ships. The 'stick' of station lock-out is so much of a stick that it's self-defeating, as argued earlier.
If the desired change to FW is that we're all ignoring most systems to only attack 'hardened' enemy home bases, then... I don't feel like explaining why FW would no longer appeal to me. Maybe someone else will. |
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 20:36:00 -
[416] - Quote
Almity wrote:[/ quote] You sure the name of your corp isn't Imperial Forum Outlaws?[/ quote]
We could make alts and put them in that corp and post here. Because trolling is how you communicate your interests to CCP. Well for being such a talented Forum Warrior, you sure fail at......
Quit Crying and Just Suck It Up |
Lil Nippy
State War Academy Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 20:38:00 -
[417] - Quote
Maz3r Rakum wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Mutnin wrote:I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
When I first started FW I was on Minmatar side and to be honest Amarr used to curb stomp us pretty much when ever they wanted to. Minmatar used to throw total crap gangs at Amarr's Guardian supported Abaddon & Geddon gangs to the point there wasn't anything Minmatar guys could do aside from lose a lot of ships or stay docked.
Minmatar's "late night crew" was only a successful late night crew because that's the only time zone Amarr couldn't dominate them.
At the same time Caldari was curb stomping Gallentte and was getting medals for owning every system while Gals were crying about NPC's and that plexing didn't matter. Meanwhile their high sec systems were camped and they couldn't do much about it. Caldari blobs ruled their space and even started coming down to Minmatar space because they couldn't get fights out of Galentte.
Now a year or so later roles are reversed for the time being and Gals/Mins seem to have forgotten how they used to get curb stomped daily while trying to be smug as if it never happened.
It would be very funny to have seen these changes go into effect back then as all these posts would be reversed with Gals & Minmatar crying for resets or that their side wouldn't be able to compete because they are out blobbed and Caldari & Amarr guys telling them to man up.
Absolutely true. We used to be a bunch of bickering tribes more obsessed with a killboard race against each other for 3p33n reasons than actually cooperating to win the war. The Amarr on the other hand had superior organization and a centralized sense of discipline. And you're right, we cut our teeth by throwing crap against well armored BS fleets with proper logi, hoping to take down an expensive ship or two before we lost our cheap stuff. Why did we do this? Because it was fun, and we had a laugh. We griped and griped and griped about the Amarr "blobbing" us to death, and whined about how they would always outship us and outnumber us. It won't be the last time either, eventually they will bounce back and we'll be back to whining again. Welcome to Faction Warfare, where its always the enemy's fault for not "playing fair". Times change. Winners and losers change. The stakes themselves are about to change. But War? War never changes. Until CCP implements the proposed changes, and your previous foes either drop milita and/or leave the area. I'm glad CCP finally got around to killing FW.
Stop being a self righteous, pompous doom sayer. You mad that TMFED can't keep all of their capitals in Auga 3rd anymore and shutdown the entire warzone 24/7? Or that you cannot take your lame kiting tengu fleets into plexes where most of the fighting will be now?
Suck it up or unsub pal. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
395
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 20:39:00 -
[418] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Hrett wrote: I dont agree with all of this (no defensive plexing? Why?)
Thus, when attackers invade your space they are actually stealing your hard-earned LP, and causing your system upgrades to be slowly stripped away unless you do something about it. ... So the reward for defensive plexing is supposed to be that you continue to enjoy your system upgrades. Oh yeah, and still be able to dock. That should be a pretty big motivator to chase off the enemy without needing to paid on top of that. Before this, I was against the station stuff, but otherwise thought this would be a net positive. Taking what we now know, I think CCP will accomplish what I previously thought impossible: Making factional warfare worse than it is now. First, here is what we know based on the test server thread and Hans's gracious information in this thread - Plexing doesn't actually give you any LP, it merely steals LP from the opposing militia's IHUB - System ownership gives you the ability to dock in that station, and to put LP into iHUB to get small benefits to station services So, there will be practically no-one putting LP into the IHUB when it can be siphoned off while the person is sleeping, especially when the rewards for putting LP into the IHUB are so minimal. Therefore, plexing will have no rewards.....
I don't think this has been completely explained/hashed out yet.
I was thinking the amount of lp is based on 2 or three things. The amount of lp for offensive plexing would depend on 3 things. 1) base amount 2) some increase if the pilots paid into an upgrade and 3) some multiplier depending on what level of sov your opponent has. But really I am just speculating based on what I heard from devs on the sisi thread what I saw from fanfest and what i saw on sisi.
I received 17,000 lp for doing a medium plex in tararan on sisi. I don't think anyone upgraded that system with their own lp yet.
If its something like this then that aspect seems reasonable. CCP can tweak things. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
395
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 20:41:00 -
[419] - Quote
Alaekessa wrote:Almity wrote:[/ quote] You sure the name of your corp isn't Imperial Forum Outlaws?[/ quote]
We could make alts and put them in that corp and post here. Because trolling is how you communicate your interests to CCP. Well for being such a talented Forum Warrior, you sure fail at......
No one from the corp I am in is a forum warrior except me. SFAIK They are active in faction war and active doing pvp but normally don't post on these forums. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 20:47:00 -
[420] - Quote
Lil Nippy wrote:Maz3r Rakum wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Mutnin wrote:I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
When I first started FW I was on Minmatar side and to be honest Amarr used to curb stomp us pretty much when ever they wanted to. Minmatar used to throw total crap gangs at Amarr's Guardian supported Abaddon & Geddon gangs to the point there wasn't anything Minmatar guys could do aside from lose a lot of ships or stay docked.
Minmatar's "late night crew" was only a successful late night crew because that's the only time zone Amarr couldn't dominate them.
At the same time Caldari was curb stomping Gallentte and was getting medals for owning every system while Gals were crying about NPC's and that plexing didn't matter. Meanwhile their high sec systems were camped and they couldn't do much about it. Caldari blobs ruled their space and even started coming down to Minmatar space because they couldn't get fights out of Galentte.
Now a year or so later roles are reversed for the time being and Gals/Mins seem to have forgotten how they used to get curb stomped daily while trying to be smug as if it never happened.
It would be very funny to have seen these changes go into effect back then as all these posts would be reversed with Gals & Minmatar crying for resets or that their side wouldn't be able to compete because they are out blobbed and Caldari & Amarr guys telling them to man up.
Absolutely true. We used to be a bunch of bickering tribes more obsessed with a killboard race against each other for 3p33n reasons than actually cooperating to win the war. The Amarr on the other hand had superior organization and a centralized sense of discipline. And you're right, we cut our teeth by throwing crap against well armored BS fleets with proper logi, hoping to take down an expensive ship or two before we lost our cheap stuff. Why did we do this? Because it was fun, and we had a laugh. We griped and griped and griped about the Amarr "blobbing" us to death, and whined about how they would always outship us and outnumber us. It won't be the last time either, eventually they will bounce back and we'll be back to whining again. Welcome to Faction Warfare, where its always the enemy's fault for not "playing fair". Times change. Winners and losers change. The stakes themselves are about to change. But War? War never changes. Until CCP implements the proposed changes, and your previous foes either drop milita and/or leave the area. I'm glad CCP finally got around to killing FW. Stop being a self righteous, pompous doom sayer. You mad that TMFED can't keep all of their capitals in Auga 3rd anymore and shutdown the entire warzone 24/7? Or that you cannot take your lame kiting tengu fleets into plexes where most of the fighting will be now? Suck it up or unsub pal.
Show me on the doll where a mean Tengu touched you.
|
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
396
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 20:52:00 -
[421] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Mutnin wrote:I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
When I first started FW I was on Minmatar side and to be honest Amarr used to curb stomp us pretty much when ever they wanted to. Minmatar used to throw total crap gangs at Amarr's Guardian supported Abaddon & Geddon gangs to the point there wasn't anything Minmatar guys could do aside from lose a lot of ships or stay docked.
Minmatar's "late night crew" was only a successful late night crew because that's the only time zone Amarr couldn't dominate them.
At the same time Caldari was curb stomping Gallentte and was getting medals for owning every system while Gals were crying about NPC's and that plexing didn't matter. Meanwhile their high sec systems were camped and they couldn't do much about it. Caldari blobs ruled their space and even started coming down to Minmatar space because they couldn't get fights out of Galentte.
Now a year or so later roles are reversed for the time being and Gals/Mins seem to have forgotten how they used to get curb stomped daily while trying to be smug as if it never happened.
It would be very funny to have seen these changes go into effect back then as all these posts would be reversed with Gals & Minmatar crying for resets or that their side wouldn't be able to compete because they are out blobbed and Caldari & Amarr guys telling them to man up.
Absolutely true. We used to be a bunch of bickering tribes more obsessed with a killboard race against each other for 3p33n reasons than actually cooperating to win the war. The Amarr on the other hand had superior organization and a centralized sense of discipline. And you're right, we cut our teeth by throwing crap against well armored BS fleets with proper logi, hoping to take down an expensive ship or two before we lost our cheap stuff. Why did we do this? Because it was fun, and we had a laugh. We griped and griped and griped about the Amarr "blobbing" us to death, and whined about how they would always outship us and outnumber us. It won't be the last time either, eventually they will bounce back and we'll be back to whining again. Welcome to Faction Warfare, where its always the enemy's fault for not "playing fair". Times change. Winners and losers change. The stakes themselves are about to change. But War? War never changes.
Hans
A good game mechanic is one that works such that if someone plays by the rules and wins they deserve credit. No one should complain if one side wins by "blobbing" if the game is set up so you can win by blobbing.
CCP can easilly make faction war one where blobbing ftw is severely limitted. Yes there will always be an advantage for the side with more active players. But if they spread things out the side with better pvpers, more ships strategically located, and yes to some extent more isk to burn, would greatly offset that numbers advantage. Instead they are making the mechanics such that there is very little you can do to offset a large numbers advantage. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
21
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 21:01:00 -
[422] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Mutnin wrote:I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
When I first started FW I was on Minmatar side and to be honest Amarr used to curb stomp us pretty much when ever they wanted to. Minmatar used to throw total crap gangs at Amarr's Guardian supported Abaddon & Geddon gangs to the point there wasn't anything Minmatar guys could do aside from lose a lot of ships or stay docked.
Minmatar's "late night crew" was only a successful late night crew because that's the only time zone Amarr couldn't dominate them.
At the same time Caldari was curb stomping Gallentte and was getting medals for owning every system while Gals were crying about NPC's and that plexing didn't matter. Meanwhile their high sec systems were camped and they couldn't do much about it. Caldari blobs ruled their space and even started coming down to Minmatar space because they couldn't get fights out of Galentte.
Now a year or so later roles are reversed for the time being and Gals/Mins seem to have forgotten how they used to get curb stomped daily while trying to be smug as if it never happened.
It would be very funny to have seen these changes go into effect back then as all these posts would be reversed with Gals & Minmatar crying for resets or that their side wouldn't be able to compete because they are out blobbed and Caldari & Amarr guys telling them to man up.
Absolutely true. We used to be a bunch of bickering tribes more obsessed with a killboard race against each other for 3p33n reasons than actually cooperating to win the war. The Amarr on the other hand had superior organization and a centralized sense of discipline. And you're right, we cut our teeth by throwing crap against well armored BS fleets with proper logi, hoping to take down an expensive ship or two before we lost our cheap stuff. Why did we do this? Because it was fun, and we had a laugh. We griped and griped and griped about the Amarr "blobbing" us to death, and whined about how they would always outship us and outnumber us. It won't be the last time either, eventually they will bounce back and we'll be back to whining again. Welcome to Faction Warfare, where its always the enemy's fault for not "playing fair". Times change. Winners and losers change. The stakes themselves are about to change. But War? War never changes. Hans A good game mechanic is one that works such that if someone plays by the rules and wins they deserve credit. No one should complain if one side wins by "blobbing" if the game is set up so you can win by blobbing. CCP can easilly make faction war one where blobbing ftw is severely limitted. Yes there will always be an advantage for the side with more active players. But if they spread things out the side with better pvpers, more ships strategically located, and yes to some extent more isk to burn, would greatly offset that numbers advantage. Instead they are making the mechanics such that there is very little you can do to offset a large numbers advantage.
While Hans says he is against the changes (docking denial), the posts he has made makes it clear that he, like CCP cannot comprehend the side effects of the changes they are proposing. Aside from rewarding sov style blob warfare over fw sov, they make it desirable to just drop milita and skip being effected by these implementations.
Instead of WTs being a common site within the FW area of lowsec, they will by and large drop milita, move to adjacent lowsec or pack up and base out of high sec. |
Almity
Imperial Outlaws
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 21:16:00 -
[423] - Quote
Alaekessa wrote:Almity wrote:[/ quote] You sure the name of your corp isn't Imperial Forum Outlaws?[/ quote]
We could make alts and put them in that corp and post here. Because trolling is how you communicate your interests to CCP. Well for being such a talented Forum Warrior, you sure fail at......
Who are you again? I'm not a forums warrior. I tend to be more of a Eve FW pilot.
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
398
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 21:21:00 -
[424] - Quote
Maz3r Rakum wrote:Cearain wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Mutnin wrote:I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
When I first started FW I was on Minmatar side and to be honest Amarr used to curb stomp us pretty much when ever they wanted to. Minmatar used to throw total crap gangs at Amarr's Guardian supported Abaddon & Geddon gangs to the point there wasn't anything Minmatar guys could do aside from lose a lot of ships or stay docked.
Minmatar's "late night crew" was only a successful late night crew because that's the only time zone Amarr couldn't dominate them.
At the same time Caldari was curb stomping Gallentte and was getting medals for owning every system while Gals were crying about NPC's and that plexing didn't matter. Meanwhile their high sec systems were camped and they couldn't do much about it. Caldari blobs ruled their space and even started coming down to Minmatar space because they couldn't get fights out of Galentte.
Now a year or so later roles are reversed for the time being and Gals/Mins seem to have forgotten how they used to get curb stomped daily while trying to be smug as if it never happened.
It would be very funny to have seen these changes go into effect back then as all these posts would be reversed with Gals & Minmatar crying for resets or that their side wouldn't be able to compete because they are out blobbed and Caldari & Amarr guys telling them to man up.
Absolutely true. We used to be a bunch of bickering tribes more obsessed with a killboard race against each other for 3p33n reasons than actually cooperating to win the war. The Amarr on the other hand had superior organization and a centralized sense of discipline. And you're right, we cut our teeth by throwing crap against well armored BS fleets with proper logi, hoping to take down an expensive ship or two before we lost our cheap stuff. Why did we do this? Because it was fun, and we had a laugh. We griped and griped and griped about the Amarr "blobbing" us to death, and whined about how they would always outship us and outnumber us. It won't be the last time either, eventually they will bounce back and we'll be back to whining again. Welcome to Faction Warfare, where its always the enemy's fault for not "playing fair". Times change. Winners and losers change. The stakes themselves are about to change. But War? War never changes. Hans A good game mechanic is one that works such that if someone plays by the rules and wins they deserve credit. No one should complain if one side wins by "blobbing" if the game is set up so you can win by blobbing. CCP can easilly make faction war one where blobbing ftw is severely limitted. Yes there will always be an advantage for the side with more active players. But if they spread things out the side with better pvpers, more ships strategically located, and yes to some extent more isk to burn, would greatly offset that numbers advantage. Instead they are making the mechanics such that there is very little you can do to offset a large numbers advantage. While Hans says he is against the changes (docking denial), the posts he has made makes it clear that he, like CCP cannot comprehend the side effects of the changes they are proposing. Aside from rewarding sov style blob warfare over fw sov, they make it desirable to just drop milita and skip being effected by these implementations. Instead of WTs being a common site within the FW area of lowsec, they will by and large drop milita, move to adjacent lowsec or pack up and base out of high sec.
I agree that this will make faction war more blobby. However I don't think fw will decrease in numbers that much. People who leave will be replaced by those who like blob warfare. Yes people like blob warfare and there is nothing wrong with that.
Its just that eve numbers as a whole wont increase because this doesn't really add new game play. Its just blobsec strategies and applying them in fw. Recruit lots of newbs who can sometimes follow primaries and get them in cheap but effective t1 alpha ships. I mean if goons joined fw as proposed they would win it in a matter of days and resistance would be futile.
On the other hand if they joined and the underdog could still dock in enemy systems and the system flip times were lowered they would always get resistance. Despite the fact that their blob ftw strategies work so well in null sec they wouldn't be able to crush one side. Sure they still might take all the systems but there would be ongoing fights. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
22
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 21:22:00 -
[425] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Maz3r Rakum wrote:Cearain wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Mutnin wrote:I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
When I first started FW I was on Minmatar side and to be honest Amarr used to curb stomp us pretty much when ever they wanted to. Minmatar used to throw total crap gangs at Amarr's Guardian supported Abaddon & Geddon gangs to the point there wasn't anything Minmatar guys could do aside from lose a lot of ships or stay docked.
Minmatar's "late night crew" was only a successful late night crew because that's the only time zone Amarr couldn't dominate them.
At the same time Caldari was curb stomping Gallentte and was getting medals for owning every system while Gals were crying about NPC's and that plexing didn't matter. Meanwhile their high sec systems were camped and they couldn't do much about it. Caldari blobs ruled their space and even started coming down to Minmatar space because they couldn't get fights out of Galentte.
Now a year or so later roles are reversed for the time being and Gals/Mins seem to have forgotten how they used to get curb stomped daily while trying to be smug as if it never happened.
It would be very funny to have seen these changes go into effect back then as all these posts would be reversed with Gals & Minmatar crying for resets or that their side wouldn't be able to compete because they are out blobbed and Caldari & Amarr guys telling them to man up.
Absolutely true. We used to be a bunch of bickering tribes more obsessed with a killboard race against each other for 3p33n reasons than actually cooperating to win the war. The Amarr on the other hand had superior organization and a centralized sense of discipline. And you're right, we cut our teeth by throwing crap against well armored BS fleets with proper logi, hoping to take down an expensive ship or two before we lost our cheap stuff. Why did we do this? Because it was fun, and we had a laugh. We griped and griped and griped about the Amarr "blobbing" us to death, and whined about how they would always outship us and outnumber us. It won't be the last time either, eventually they will bounce back and we'll be back to whining again. Welcome to Faction Warfare, where its always the enemy's fault for not "playing fair". Times change. Winners and losers change. The stakes themselves are about to change. But War? War never changes. Hans A good game mechanic is one that works such that if someone plays by the rules and wins they deserve credit. No one should complain if one side wins by "blobbing" if the game is set up so you can win by blobbing. CCP can easilly make faction war one where blobbing ftw is severely limitted. Yes there will always be an advantage for the side with more active players. But if they spread things out the side with better pvpers, more ships strategically located, and yes to some extent more isk to burn, would greatly offset that numbers advantage. Instead they are making the mechanics such that there is very little you can do to offset a large numbers advantage. While Hans says he is against the changes (docking denial), the posts he has made makes it clear that he, like CCP cannot comprehend the side effects of the changes they are proposing. Aside from rewarding sov style blob warfare over fw sov, they make it desirable to just drop milita and skip being effected by these implementations. Instead of WTs being a common site within the FW area of lowsec, they will by and large drop milita, move to adjacent lowsec or pack up and base out of high sec. I agree that this will make faction war more blobby. However I don't think fw will decrease in numbers that much. People who leave will be replaced by those who like blob warfare. Yes people like blob warfare and there is nothing wrong with that. Its just that eve numbers as a whole wont increase because this doesn't really add new game play. Its just blobsec strategies and applying them in fw. Recruit lots of newbs who can sometimes follow primaries and get them in cheap but effective t1 alpha ships. I mean if goons joined fw as proposed they would win it in a matter of days and resistance would be futile. On the other hand if they joined and the underdog could still dock in enemy systems and the system flip times were lowered they would always get resistance. Despite the fact that their blob ftw strategies work so well in null sec they wouldn't be able to crush one side. Sure they still might take all the systems but there would be ongoing fights.
I for one welcome our new blob overlords.
/s |
Almity
Imperial Outlaws
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:14:00 -
[426] - Quote
My last point on the docking issue is this. I'm flashy. I can't dock in high sec(in a ship). I can't dock in enemy controlled space. In the Amarr/Minnie war zone I have one choice. That's right. In a 7 jump radius of Kourm I can dock in one system if the rest are taken.
Why should I stay in FW? I cant repair, I can't reship, I can't resupply! |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
139
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:16:00 -
[427] - Quote
Cearin, go get some actual experience before you label everything more than 3 ships a blob. People saying FW will get more and more blobby have said that since day 1 and it has actually gone the opposite direction.
Know your history and get your facts straight then you might have a better chance at predicting the future.
|
Amarrian Slavetrader
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:19:00 -
[428] - Quote
You know, if there were less "the sky is falling" sensationalism on the part of current fw players people might actually listen to what you have to say. Of course, it would involve toning down your estimates of the effects of this 'apocalypse'.
Right now, you're just being laughed at because all people are seeing are current fw pilots mad about their perception of being personally disadvantaged by a change in game design direction. About a year ago people were laughing at nullsec players whining about having their anom income and JBs nerfed too. They were making the same absurd predictions as you lot are presently and look at them now--nullsec is still nullsec. FW will still be FW after this and will more than likely be better for it (since, frankly, it can't really be any worse than it is now).
Perhaps you fellas should take a lesson from eve history. |
Amarrian Slavetrader
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:21:00 -
[429] - Quote
Almity wrote:My last point on the docking issue is this. I'm flashy. I can't dock in high sec(in a ship). I can't dock in enemy controlled space. In the Amarr/Minnie war zone I have one choice. That's right. In a 7 jump radius of Kourm I can dock in one system if the rest are taken.
Why should I stay in FW? I cant repair, I can't reship, I can't resupply!
Life is hard. You made a choice to go -5; live with it. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
398
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:30:00 -
[430] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:Cearin, go get some actual experience before you label everything more than 3 ships a blob.
I'm not sure where I labeled anything with more than 3 ships a blob. Are you sure you have your facts straight?
I'm not interested in playing semantic games about what a "blob" is. If you want to throw one t1 cruiser against and enemy with 3 t1 cruisers, go ahead. If you want to fight anyone when you are outgunned 3 to one go ahead. Beyond that i don't know what you are talking about.
Vyktor Abyss wrote: People saying FW will get more and more blobby have said that since day 1.
I don't know what people you are refering to but it wasn't me. Again I think you have your facts wrong. Go argue with your imaginary "people" who have been saying this since day one all you want, but don't claim I am one of them.
Vyktor Abyss wrote: Know your history and get your facts straight then you might have a better chance at predicting the future.
What historical fact do you think I am missing?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
|
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
246
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:32:00 -
[431] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Mutnin wrote:I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
When I first started FW I was on Minmatar side and to be honest Amarr used to curb stomp us pretty much when ever they wanted to. Minmatar used to throw total crap gangs at Amarr's Guardian supported Abaddon & Geddon gangs to the point there wasn't anything Minmatar guys could do aside from lose a lot of ships or stay docked.
Minmatar's "late night crew" was only a successful late night crew because that's the only time zone Amarr couldn't dominate them.
At the same time Caldari was curb stomping Gallentte and was getting medals for owning every system while Gals were crying about NPC's and that plexing didn't matter. Meanwhile their high sec systems were camped and they couldn't do much about it. Caldari blobs ruled their space and even started coming down to Minmatar space because they couldn't get fights out of Galentte.
Now a year or so later roles are reversed for the time being and Gals/Mins seem to have forgotten how they used to get curb stomped daily while trying to be smug as if it never happened.
It would be very funny to have seen these changes go into effect back then as all these posts would be reversed with Gals & Minmatar crying for resets or that their side wouldn't be able to compete because they are out blobbed and Caldari & Amarr guys telling them to man up.
Absolutely true. We used to be a bunch of bickering tribes more obsessed with a killboard race against each other for 3p33n reasons than actually cooperating to win the war. The Amarr on the other hand had superior organization and a centralized sense of discipline. And you're right, we cut our teeth by throwing crap against well armored BS fleets with proper logi, hoping to take down an expensive ship or two before we lost our cheap stuff. Why did we do this? Because it was fun, and we had a laugh. We griped and griped and griped about the Amarr "blobbing" us to death, and whined about how they would always outship us and outnumber us. It won't be the last time either, eventually they will bounce back and we'll be back to whining again. Welcome to Faction Warfare, where its always the enemy's fault for not "playing fair". Times change. Winners and losers change. The stakes themselves are about to change. But War? War never changes.
Exactly. Which is why there is no need to reset sovereignty for the sake of "fairness"
As the countdown to Inferno continues, I have noticed bigger and bigger fleets formed up on the Caldari side in the past three weeks. Corporations that never flew with each other and are now flying with each other. Corporations that couldn't take on the so-called Jesus Blob aka, Gallente Armada, on their own now stand a fighting chance as they fleet up with the veteran corps. Sometimes they curbstomp the Gallente and sometimes the Gallente curbstomps them.
Anyone who thinks that a reset will fix their problems is hopelessly naive. The issues with the Amarr and Caldari is not something that can be fixed with a reset. A reset will only buy you some time before the inevitable happens. The issues you have is systemic and has been highlighted already. Fix your organizational issues and you will be fine. The Caldari seem to fixing that as we speak.
Stop having such a defeatist attitude. You can win or you can make excuses but you can't do both at the same time.
The day a militia can afford to blob is the day that militia has done one thing right;
- Established diplomatic relationships with other fellow corporations in order to achieve a common goal.
Two militias have done that. One is working on that. And the other (or a few from them) is asking for a reset hoping it will save them. C'est La Eve :) Gallente Militia -áPVP Corp. Selective recruitment open. http://iamsheriff.com/eagle.html |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:37:00 -
[432] - Quote
What the majority of people who are in favor of the docking denial and Hans is that the mechanism's only meaningful reward is the station lockout in and of itself. Furthermore, and more importantly this feature at least in my opinion will serve as a means to once and for all kill the cyclical waxing and waning of the side that has the upper hand at least on highest level fleet engagements.
Additionally, what happens to the war zone when one side takes every system from the opposing milita? While this might sound like a great thing to those sides who might have the upper hand in numbers (re the bigger blob). What do you think your new found sov will look like? It will be completely empty of wts (things to shoot), or nothing will change because the moment your wts were inconvenienced they dropped milita or moved out. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
398
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:37:00 -
[433] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:Stop having such a defeatist attitude. You can win or you can make excuses but you can't do both at the same time. .
Its not that we can't win. Its that it will suck to try to win. Believe it or not, lots of the people who hate this change are in the gallente and minmatar militias which currently have the upper hand.
Deen Wispa wrote:
The day a militia can afford to blob is the day that militia has done one thing right;.
This is the crux of where we disagree. Neiter one is right or wrong, we just want different things out of eve. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:58:00 -
[434] - Quote
When they implement LP for enemy kills, there should be an underdog modifier so if a side is getting their butts kicked, there is a greater and greater incentive to fight.
Don't nerf the side that is winning, just bump up the reward by 10% for every 5% of the warzone the enemy gains . So, 55% = 1.1 modifier, 60% = 1.2, etc.... If the enemy holds 100%, it will be double the reward for kills.
This would be a way to help even up the sides a bit and motivate the losing militia to keep fighting. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:59:00 -
[435] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Mutnin wrote:I do find it funny all the smack that comes from the Minmatar & Gallentte right now when it wasn't so long ago they were on the receiving side of getting face pounded.
When I first started FW I was on Minmatar side and to be honest Amarr used to curb stomp us pretty much when ever they wanted to. Minmatar used to throw total crap gangs at Amarr's Guardian supported Abaddon & Geddon gangs to the point there wasn't anything Minmatar guys could do aside from lose a lot of ships or stay docked.
Minmatar's "late night crew" was only a successful late night crew because that's the only time zone Amarr couldn't dominate them.
At the same time Caldari was curb stomping Gallentte and was getting medals for owning every system while Gals were crying about NPC's and that plexing didn't matter. Meanwhile their high sec systems were camped and they couldn't do much about it. Caldari blobs ruled their space and even started coming down to Minmatar space because they couldn't get fights out of Galentte.
Now a year or so later roles are reversed for the time being and Gals/Mins seem to have forgotten how they used to get curb stomped daily while trying to be smug as if it never happened.
It would be very funny to have seen these changes go into effect back then as all these posts would be reversed with Gals & Minmatar crying for resets or that their side wouldn't be able to compete because they are out blobbed and Caldari & Amarr guys telling them to man up.
Absolutely true. We used to be a bunch of bickering tribes more obsessed with a killboard race against each other for 3p33n reasons than actually cooperating to win the war. The Amarr on the other hand had superior organization and a centralized sense of discipline. And you're right, we cut our teeth by throwing crap against well armored BS fleets with proper logi, hoping to take down an expensive ship or two before we lost our cheap stuff. Why did we do this? Because it was fun, and we had a laugh. We griped and griped and griped about the Amarr "blobbing" us to death, and whined about how they would always outship us and outnumber us. It won't be the last time either, eventually they will bounce back and we'll be back to whining again. Welcome to Faction Warfare, where its always the enemy's fault for not "playing fair". Times change. Winners and losers change. The stakes themselves are about to change. But War? War never changes. Exactly. Which is why there is no need to reset sovereignty for the sake of "fairness". Fairness occurs when you use your cunning and wit to level the playing field. Don't rely on CCP to do that for you. As the countdown to Inferno continues, I have noticed bigger and bigger fleets formed up on the Caldari side in the past three weeks. Corporations that never flew with each other and are now flying with each other. Corporations that couldn't take on the so-called Jesus Blob aka, Gallente Armada, on their own now stand a fighting chance as they fleet up with the veteran corps. Sometimes they curbstomp the Gallente and sometimes the Gallente curbstomps them. Anyone who thinks that a reset will fix their problems is hopelessly naive. The issues with the Amarr and Caldari is not something that can be fixed with a reset. A reset will only buy you some time before the inevitable happens. The issues you have is systemic and has been highlighted already. Fix your organizational issues and you will be fine. The Caldari seem to fixing that as we speak. Stop having such a defeatist attitude. You can win or you can make excuses but you can't do both at the same time. The day a militia can afford to blob is the day that militia has done one thing right; - Established diplomatic relationships with other fellow corporations in order to achieve a common goal. Two militias have done that. One is working on that. And the other (or a few from them) is asking for a reset hoping it will save them. Still though, get rid of docking restrictions. More negatives than positives. People should take this poll that Susan has set up. I'd like to see more quantifiable numbers rather than heresy
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Amarrian Slavetrader
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 23:16:00 -
[436] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:People should take this poll that Susan has set up. I'd like to see more quantifiable numbers rather than heresy
Yea, because a website poll is scientifically valid and provides a representative data set from which to draw statistical inferences. No, actually, it is not. |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 23:41:00 -
[437] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:Deen Wispa wrote:People should take this poll that Susan has set up. I'd like to see more quantifiable numbers rather than heresy Yea, because a website poll is scientifically valid and provides a representative data set from which to draw statistical inferences. No, actually, it is not.
It's at least better than reading your dribble |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 00:11:00 -
[438] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:chatgris wrote: Look at my original post, I quoted that directly from Hans. Since he's on the CSM and we have no dev blog otherwise, he's my primary source of information.
No, I was just trying to convey shock and alarm. It makes perfect sense as to why I wasn't getting LP before. Let me get this straight. Basically the only LP *source* (as in original source that adds total aggregate LP to the game) is missions and perhaps kills ? LOL and *sigh*. I hope this isn't true.
|
Amarrian Slavetrader
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 00:26:00 -
[439] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:After we shut down all their mission systems, they're screwed. No LP from missions. No LP from plexes. They get to go grind L4's in high sec.
Not all FW agents are in lowsec... |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 00:31:00 -
[440] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:X Gallentius wrote:After we shut down all their mission systems, they're screwed. No LP from missions. No LP from plexes. They get to go grind L4's in high sec. Not all FW agents are in lowsec... Youo're right, but they are at least a third less payout than the ones in low sec. The Gallente will always have Parts (low sec). Don't think there's a Caldari equivalent.
|
|
Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
164
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 01:57:00 -
[441] - Quote
Stop whining http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 02:05:00 -
[442] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Kade Jeekin wrote:Dirk Smacker wrote: Or they could make you clear the npc's in order to cap.
Why haven't they implemented this? It seems like an easy fix. There's plenty of missions where the spawn has to be cleared before either a gate is opened or a can is dropped. Yep. I'd be perfectly happy with this. Do eeet CCP. Sorry, it makes too much sense. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:29:00 -
[443] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:Hrett wrote: You can speed tank afk offensive plex too. Hence my suggestion of only giving it to both sides when contested.
Or they could make you clear the npc's in order to cap. But I haven't heard anything about touching the plexes themselves. Welcome to my personal hell. There will probably only be cosmetic changes to plexes/NPCs but with a massive added incentive, which means that some of us (read: Amarr) are effectively removed from the plexing game entirely due to the comparatively harder time we have doing that bit. Might change if we can somehow find 50-60 people with an interest in plexing, but if they come by way of the incentives then one must assume the Shakorites get the same size bump nullifying it.
As for why they haven't made NPC destruction the 'timer' .. blobs. Just dump 10-20 people into an unrestricted and the useless navy ships pop as soon as they spawn making the the spawn speed the new timer. With incentives, one must assume it is split among those present thus countering the urge to blob (on paper), but since we have been doing it for epeen until now such a change will just result in majors closing a few seconds after last spawn .. could be timed to last approximately same time though, which is actually better than the mind-numbing "watch the clock" .. we'd need something else to do while waiting for spawns though
chatgris wrote:...Therefore, plexing will have no rewards... As I understand it; LP for offensive plexing is taken from the iHub if and only if it has any LP invested. Otherwise LP is given as normal, counting towards system occupancy/sovereignty. In short: Invested LP acts as both utterly useless carebear booster and as a buffer tank for the system.
Question about Kill-to-Cap made me think, what if: - Plex caps when last NPC is killed. - NPC spawns increase in number, waves and intensity (read: difficulty, as in elites) as numbers increase. - LP for plex remains the same, only benefit for blobbing therefore is additional tags.
Would solve the Blob-to-Win in regards to plexes, but requires some more NPCs to be designed and for the NPC AI tweaks to be put in place or its just going to be speed tanking all over as normal. |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
35
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:51:00 -
[444] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:As I understand it; LP for offensive plexing is taken from the iHub if and only if it has any LP invested. Otherwise LP is given as normal, counting towards system occupancy/sovereignty. In short: Invested LP acts as both utterly useless carebear booster and as a buffer tank for the system.
So, people who can actually use SiSi:
1. can you 'active tank' a system? Oh no, Iron Oxide's close to taking Sosan, and nobody's interested in fighting them, but I have a gazillion LP. Can I keep investing LP into the system to delay the capture?
2. Is the LP payout different? Will I be rewarding them with more LP than they'd otherwise get?
3. Can you tell how much LP is invested in an enemy system? Based on feedback comments so far, I guess not.
If the answer to #1 is 'no', I'd like to know what prevents that. Maybe, you can't invest LP into a contested system - so I should've decided that I wanted Sosan to be able to last for a length of time under attack before they launched the attack. This would make it a severe grind to take a 'home system' vs. any random system, but it would still be a finite grind, people could not fly off, do some offensive plexing, and then rush back to drop Sisyphus's rock back on the attackers. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 04:29:00 -
[445] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Andiedeath wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:Personally I'm looking forward to the changes. Spent the weekend taking my ships to high sec from low in preparation. I expect the people who plex will find that they are actually getting rewards now and stay in FW. The people who are mission runners and never plex will leave militia - that's a good
. Well actually mission runners in FW usually only do them because they is no better way to make isk in low sec. I knowim keen to actually get something for Plexing and PVP. It will make a massive difference to the way I make iskies. It will be much more fun. It is funny how people think there are armies of mission runners. Reality is that there are only few now, because all isk farmers are now in Incursions business. CCP have u ever tried to check records of people who in reality run fw missions? Most of them went during first fw mission nerf reballance 1.5 year ago. Which comes to the guy who is responsible for fw in ccp ... Have u done ur homewrok? I am afraid no.
LOL! They were nerfed???? Wow hate to see how much people made back then. I still manage to make a lot more per hour than anyone I know that are part of the big incursion corps. Anyway thats a different debate... :P
My advise is do your homework before making a comment about something you obivously havent looked into since incursions came out. :)
|
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
35
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 04:37:00 -
[446] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium talks about FW at 41 minutes into episode 12 of the Bringing Solo Back podcast.
In his words:
- focus #1: give FW consequences: station lockout, upgrade systems.
- focus #2: gameplay in general. Plexing is not that sexy. esp. when NPCs are just plain broken. (This is future work. Not for Inferno.)
- we agree that FW should not, absolutely not, be like nullsec, and that players join FW because they're unhappy for one way or another with how nullsec works.
- We need to make sure FW is a stepping stone without just killing the appeal.
- Even if you don't like denied docking at the moment, we're not going to drop FW after Inferno. We really want to keep iterating on this feature. We know that this is something we've dropped.
- "We don't care about cynojamming." "We are just like pirates in lowsec." ... that's why cynojamming was pulled. We want to think of everyone, look at all consequences, not confuse FW with all of lowsec, etc.
- We want to have a look at consequences, gameplay. It needs to be relatively casual. It needs to be linked to 0.0, be a stepping stone. We want to look at visibility in general, which is why we're having a look at UI. Other stuff like standings. The standings system is just horrible.
It's about nine minutes. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 04:41:00 -
[447] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:LOL! They were nerfed???? ... Yeah, they were nerfed but it as a while ago.
- Missions used to be "standard" missions with LP/ISK assigned according to system security, a few speciality items and discounted ships. - Then CCP rummaged around trying to make it more worth it and removed standings penalty for declining --> massively staggeringly overpowered boost. - Then CCP did a collective /facedesk and reinstated standings penalty but added a few more speciality items (implants, navy hull revamp). - Then agents across the board were normalized --> massive boost. - Soon CCP removes discounted ships but adds infini-LP by way of plexes (and probably kills as they are destined to mess that one up ) |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 04:48:00 -
[448] - Quote
baah, dbl. |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 05:38:00 -
[449] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Good too know my doom'n'gloom is vindicated. Station lockouts for what will probably be 6-12 months before NPCs are tweaked, during which time Shakorites have their super easy AB-Rifter plexing .. Yay!
I don't want to speak well of the enemy - or rather, I should speak well of my alliance, and say that it's not super easy when someone's trying to kill you. We are trying to kill them, so they're not often in AB Rifters :) I know that the Jayai constellation looks bleak at the moment, but those systems weren't lost so easily, and if you could see the constellation over time you might see hints of how quickly it can turn around: two systems reclaimed in one TZ, and then two systems simultaneously vulnerable at an inopportune time for us (if we'd gotten it maybe four plexes earlier, the day would've dawned on 5/7th of Jayai out of their hands.)
I suppose that in the secrecy of their hearts they believe that they'll straighten up and fly right and be really serious about things in just a little while from now, and then they'll just push us all the way out of the warzone, and anyway they just don't care about Jayai in the first place, how silly of anyone to judge them by it -- but they are doing too badly with too many against too few for me to think they will do well against the growing Amarrian organization that I've also seen of late.
... well, enough of that. I'll just say, I think a vacation in Devoid will cure your doom'n'gloom. If you look around, in the distance, you'll see the red nebula about Heimatar. I fancy that it's receding. |
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 07:20:00 -
[450] - Quote
New on SISI:
- warzone control is based on number of systems conquered and thier upgrade status - tier 1 bonus: crap LP offers, no LP gain bonus - tier 2 bonus: bad LP offers, 5% LP gain bonus - max is tier 5 - you see now how hard a system is contested in % |
|
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
115
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 09:24:00 -
[451] - Quote
Slightly off-topic Kuehnelt, if you're not interested in fighting IO, why not?
I see you guys field similarly sized fleets to the IO death engine when White Lotus have small frigate gangs in the ******* end of the FW zone, and better Logistics fleets.
It seems like the 'investment' suggestion would slow down System flipping too much, hard to say without concrete numbers and testing though. Dirty heretical mud-child, reporting in. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 10:00:00 -
[452] - Quote
Ahazu Sagam wrote:New on SISI:
- warzone control is based on number of systems conquered and thier upgrade status - tier 1 bonus: crap LP offers, no LP gain bonus - tier 2 bonus: bad LP offers, 5% LP gain bonus - max is tier 5 - you see now how hard a system is contested in % Thanks for the update. What does "LP gain bonus" mean since you can't get LP with defensive plexing? Does it increase mission payout - meaning it might be profitable to upgrade mission systems?
|
Roddy Mcrizzle
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 10:11:00 -
[453] - Quote
Well i can say this, If this BS goes ahead i will be leaving militia. I will get all the benefits of being in low sec, w/o penalties... I rarley run fw missions any more as there are too many carebears driving the lp value to nearly 0... I am sitting on over 3m LP and i have no desire to use it...
With all that said, I can stay in low sec same systems i use now. I can still hunt and kill the same people, i just wont sit on a plex timer and spin for 10 - 30 mins.
Truly this is going bring piracy back in force. As all the FW pilots are going to quite worrying about fw as a whole and just kill everything. |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 11:12:00 -
[454] - Quote
Halete wrote:Slightly off-topic Kuehnelt, if you're not interested in fighting IO, why not?
I see you guys field similarly sized fleets to the IO death engine when White Lotus have small frigate gangs in the ******* end of the FW zone, and better Logistics fleets.
Although it seems you just wanted to complain, you also asked that question. And what strikes me about that question is that, if you'd asked it in local, I would have completely ignored it. More, I would never have encouraged you to ask such a question. And as I've already talked about it, I'll add that I certainly did not exchange pleasantries with Iron Oxide on that occasion, or chat with them about the Amarr militia. So it seems there's a certain danger from my being somewhat bored and far from my pod.
In short, thanks for asking.
Quote:It seems like the 'investment' suggestion would slow down System flipping too much, hard to say without concrete numbers and testing though.
System flipping seems already destined to be slowed down quite a bit, but yeah, I think this feature of Inferno is the most dangerous: different concrete numbers can mean tier 5 systems everywhere, forever, or tier 0 systems everywhere but staging systems, and both of these I think would kill the sov/occupancy/whatever war, by making it impossible in the first case or by making it a game only for chumps in the second case.
So I hope people will continue to report back from SiSi in this thread.
It's clear that station lock-out has already been decided, and after reading the CSM's posts I think that a sov reset (or the lack of one) is also decided. But these numbers can still be influenced. |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
115
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 11:39:00 -
[455] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote: It's clear that station lock-out has already been decided, and after reading the CSM's posts I think that a sov reset (or the lack of one) is also decided. But these numbers can still be influenced.
Sorry Kuehn, this is basically all I wanted to talk about. Aren't you worried that this suggestion compounded with what's already pretty much decided would be too much, etc?
Personally I think that if you want your space, you should fight for it.
You kind of dismissed my post on the premise of an 'incident' with IO where no pleasantries were exchanged, but I wasn't aware of such an incident. Was a genuinely curious question. I know that you guys can fleet up. Dirty heretical mud-child, reporting in. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
398
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 12:57:00 -
[456] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Dirk Smacker wrote:Hrett wrote: You can speed tank afk offensive plex too. Hence my suggestion of only giving it to both sides when contested.
Or they could make you clear the npc's in order to cap. But I haven't heard anything about touching the plexes themselves. Welcome to my personal hell. There will probably only be cosmetic changes to plexes/NPCs but with a massive added incentive, which means that some of us (read: Amarr) are effectively removed from the plexing game entirely due to the comparatively harder time we have doing that bit....
There has always been a debate about how big of a role the npcs should play. I and others would like to see them disappear altogether and just let the militia players know where plexes are being attacked so they can defend them themselves.
For me I would just like faction war sov warfare to involve pvp instead of pve.
In my experience npcs almost always work to decrease the chances of pvp. But I suppose we could find out some statistics on this. We could ask CCP diagoras if the amount of pvp kills goes up or down in a low sec system when incursions enter those systems. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Val Erian
Azure Horizon Federate Militia
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 13:22:00 -
[457] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Ahazu Sagam wrote:New on SISI:
- warzone control is based on number of systems conquered and thier upgrade status - tier 1 bonus: crap LP offers, no LP gain bonus - tier 2 bonus: bad LP offers, 5% LP gain bonus - max is tier 5 - you see now how hard a system is contested in % Thanks for the update. What does "LP gain bonus" mean since you can't get LP with defensive plexing? Does it increase mission payout - meaning it might be profitable to upgrade mission systems?
I expect the LP Bonus for warzone control is for offers from the LP Store.
I'm still uncertain about the LP from doing plexs. Its clear that no LP from defensive plexing.
But offensive? Is it only taken from upgraded systems or not?
|
Bengal Bob
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 13:35:00 -
[458] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Oh no, Iron Oxide's close to taking Sosan
As a plexing alliance, our stated goal is to take all systems, barring one or two to store our Amarrian pets. Undocking will slow this down far more than dumping LP into a system. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
398
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 13:41:00 -
[459] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote: - we agree that FW should not, absolutely not, be like nullsec, and that players join FW because they're unhappy for one way or another with how nullsec works.
- We need to make sure FW is a stepping stone without just killing the appeal....
This seems pretty contradictory.
What is fw supposed to be a "stepping stone" to, if not null sec? Is it a stepping stone to high sec mission running? Wormholes?
If this is what he said then I think we can see they are still thinking in terms of game designed to railroad people into the "endgame."
If they want to improve the game they need to let go of the whole "stepping stone" idea and make faction war an awesome and unique endgame that will appeal to a certain type of crowd. Preferably a different crowd than those who like null sec.
I really think they are just having a mental block on this. I find it amazing that they CCP soundwave cant see how these changes make faction war more like null sec.
There has been so much discussion of how to drive people to null sec they can't really get this "goal" out of their thinking. They play lip service and say "no we are not making this like null sec absolutely not!" But here it is on sisi: null sec lite. They just can't seem to understand that eve can be a sandbox with many endgames involving pvp. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
116
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 14:14:00 -
[460] - Quote
Confirming that I don't use FW as a 'stepping stone' to anything.
If I want to go to Null, I can happily fly there right now, period.
Dirty heretical mud-child, reporting in. |
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2318
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 14:46:00 -
[461] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:As I understand it; LP for offensive plexing is taken from the iHub if and only if it has any LP invested. Otherwise LP is given as normal, counting towards system occupancy/sovereignty. In short: Invested LP acts as both utterly useless carebear booster and as a buffer tank for the system. So, people who can actually use SiSi: 1. can you 'active tank' a system? Oh no, Iron Oxide's close to taking Sosan, and nobody's interested in fighting them, but I have a gazillion LP. Can I keep investing LP into the system to delay the capture? 2. Is the LP payout different? Will I be rewarding them with more LP than they'd otherwise get? 3. Can you tell how much LP is invested in an enemy system? Based on feedback comments so far, I guess not. If the answer to #1 is 'no', I'd like to know what prevents that. Maybe, you can't invest LP into a contested system - so I should've decided that I wanted Sosan to be able to last for a length of time under attack before they launched the attack. This would make it a severe grind to take a 'home system' vs. any random system, but it would still be a finite grind, people could not fly off, do some offensive plexing, and then rush back to drop Sisyphus's rock back on the attackers.
No, to my knowledge you cannot "active tank" a system, as the dev's have already pointed out that the system flip is determined by victory points, which have been reduced for each plex.
The rest of your questions will have to wait for the dev blog that should be out any day now. Thanks for your patience! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
401
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 14:51:00 -
[462] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Kuehnelt wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:As I understand it; LP for offensive plexing is taken from the iHub if and only if it has any LP invested. Otherwise LP is given as normal, counting towards system occupancy/sovereignty. In short: Invested LP acts as both utterly useless carebear booster and as a buffer tank for the system. So, people who can actually use SiSi: 1. can you 'active tank' a system? Oh no, Iron Oxide's close to taking Sosan, and nobody's interested in fighting them, but I have a gazillion LP. Can I keep investing LP into the system to delay the capture? 2. Is the LP payout different? Will I be rewarding them with more LP than they'd otherwise get? 3. Can you tell how much LP is invested in an enemy system? Based on feedback comments so far, I guess not. If the answer to #1 is 'no', I'd like to know what prevents that. Maybe, you can't invest LP into a contested system - so I should've decided that I wanted Sosan to be able to last for a length of time under attack before they launched the attack. This would make it a severe grind to take a 'home system' vs. any random system, but it would still be a finite grind, people could not fly off, do some offensive plexing, and then rush back to drop Sisyphus's rock back on the attackers. No, to my knowledge you cannot "active tank" a system, as the dev's have already pointed out that the system flip is determined by victory points, which have been reduced for each plex. The rest of your questions will have to wait for the dev blog that should be out any day now. Thanks for your patience!
Hans can you tell us if ccp is at least talking with you about this?
You don't need to say what you are talking about but just whether they are even discussing these issues with you since the changes went live on sisi.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2318
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 14:52:00 -
[463] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Ahazu Sagam wrote:New on SISI:
- warzone control is based on number of systems conquered and thier upgrade status - tier 1 bonus: crap LP offers, no LP gain bonus - tier 2 bonus: bad LP offers, 5% LP gain bonus - max is tier 5 - you see now how hard a system is contested in % Thanks for the update. What does "LP gain bonus" mean since you can't get LP with defensive plexing? Does it increase mission payout - meaning it might be profitable to upgrade mission systems?
As CCP Rubberband stated, the LP bonus is for all activities that pay out LP. Thus, missions, plexes, and player kills.
Warzone controls are not the same as the system upgrades, Warzone controls are affected by how well your faction is doing. The more you win systems and the more you upgrade them, the better warzone control you have. System upgrades are only dependent on the LP invested into the IHUB. You can see an explanation of all these concepts at the Fan Fest presentation. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2318
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 15:06:00 -
[464] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Kuehnelt wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:As I understand it; LP for offensive plexing is taken from the iHub if and only if it has any LP invested. Otherwise LP is given as normal, counting towards system occupancy/sovereignty. In short: Invested LP acts as both utterly useless carebear booster and as a buffer tank for the system. So, people who can actually use SiSi: 1. can you 'active tank' a system? Oh no, Iron Oxide's close to taking Sosan, and nobody's interested in fighting them, but I have a gazillion LP. Can I keep investing LP into the system to delay the capture? 2. Is the LP payout different? Will I be rewarding them with more LP than they'd otherwise get? 3. Can you tell how much LP is invested in an enemy system? Based on feedback comments so far, I guess not. If the answer to #1 is 'no', I'd like to know what prevents that. Maybe, you can't invest LP into a contested system - so I should've decided that I wanted Sosan to be able to last for a length of time under attack before they launched the attack. This would make it a severe grind to take a 'home system' vs. any random system, but it would still be a finite grind, people could not fly off, do some offensive plexing, and then rush back to drop Sisyphus's rock back on the attackers. No, to my knowledge you cannot "active tank" a system, as the dev's have already pointed out that the system flip is determined by victory points, which have been reduced for each plex. The rest of your questions will have to wait for the dev blog that should be out any day now. Thanks for your patience! Hans can you tell us if ccp is at least talking with you about this? You don't need to say what you are talking about but just whether they are even discussing these issues with you since the changes went live on sisi.
I am always in constant communication with CCP, every single day. What players need to keep in mind is that its literally impossible to design a "perfect" system without deciding on a set of changes, setting them loose, seeing how players learn to adjust and enjoy them, and than adjusting accordingly. In this thread there are a lot players trying to design their perfect system, but the reality is that NONE of us know exactly how much or how little fun this will be until we've tried it.
The sense of urgency here everyone feels just isn't necessary. Rest assured, there is plenty of time to suggest and implement all sorts of tweaks, fixes, and adjustments, but those have to be based on the real-world activity observed on Tranquility post-May 22, and can't be nailed down perfectly beforehand as there is no way to model how players will adapt until we give them a chance to do so. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Princess Nexxala
The Rock Hard Roosters Villore Accords
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 15:08:00 -
[465] - Quote
We started doing that months ago :)
Roddy Mcrizzle wrote: Truly this is going bring piracy back in force. As all the FW pilots are going to quite worrying about fw as a whole and just kill everything.
But yeah if LP rewards for plexing only come in an upgraded system (takes from the hub), that's kind of lame and probably will lead to a lot of people leaving. LP from plexing is what got lots of folks excited in the first place.
However, if you give us the ability to cyno jam an upgraded system...all will be forgiven CCP
Is sexy time? |
Andrea Griffin
276
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 15:23:00 -
[466] - Quote
For the most part, I enjoy the changes. LP for kills and plexing is wonderful, something we have asked to be added for a very long time.
I'm not too keen on station lockout, though - I believe that it will lead to a more risk-averse style of play and less pew pew. But, let's give it a try and see how it goes. Maybe it won't be all that bad. If it is, CCP can remove it.
I still stand by my previous statements about it though: If a station will deny access to a law abiding enemy of the state, why on earth would any station allow a criminal to dock? From a stance of consistency it just doesn't make any sense at all. It also doesn't make sense that an NPC corporation not involved in the war would deny docking access. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2319
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 15:29:00 -
[467] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote: I still stand by my previous statements about it though: If a station will deny access to a law abiding enemy of the state, why on earth would any station allow a criminal to dock? From a stance of consistency it just doesn't make any sense at all. It also doesn't make sense that an NPC corporation not involved in the war would deny docking access.
Because these aren't design decisions made from a role play or "just makes sense" standpoint. They are there to directly encourage consequence and add meaning to victory conditions, as well as to encourage more FW pilots to spend time in space fighting and less time sitting in stations spinning ships and asking where the fleet is.
Thank you though, for keeping a positive attitude and for being willing to try something before judging it. Players like you should have a lot of fun in the days ahead, I wish everyone else felt the same.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Salicaz
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 15:58:00 -
[468] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Thank you though, for keeping a positive attitude and for being willing to try something before judging it. Players like you should have a lot of fun in the days ahead, I wish everyone else felt the same.
CCP Guy> Hey guys, remember that broken feature we released years back called Faction Warfare? [Room erupts with howling laughter].
CCP Guy > [Wipes tear from eye after laughing so hard]. Lol! Iknorite! Well apparently some people still do it, no really they do!
CCP Prat from meeting > Why haven't they left for null sec, our beloved end game vision?
CCP Guy > I don't know, apparently they lived begrudgingly with the half arsed broken mess and....
CCP Prat from meeting > But why haven't they left for null sec, our beloved end game vision?
CCP Guy > shrugs*
CCP Prat from meeting > **** em, bring null sec to them then, lock them out of station. I can't believe they still do it lol! We even stopped adding news to the militia office window in Feb 2010. Let them have a helping prod into the direction that be null! [rapturous applaud from the rest of the meeting]
CCP Guy > They're bound to complain, what should we say?
CCP Prat from meeting > Nothing, just let that lovely Hans fellow from that gathering we invited, er, what are they called?
CCP Guy > CSM?
CCP Prat from meeting > Yeah them, get him to bang on about how good it really is for them.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
82
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 15:58:00 -
[469] - Quote
And what if they push ahead with their null-styled consequences/incentives while postponing the infinitely more important mechanics changes (NPCs primarily)?
And what exactly do they expect that will work against the inevitable snowball effect, winning sides will have LP coming out of their arses .. invest in systems (invulnerable due to blobbage) .. get even more LP etc. (and no, datacores mean squat)?
And how do they plan on getting around the 30-40% difference in starting systems between Amarr/Shakorite? Do they plan on remapping part of the area to make it more of a contest?
My fear is that the blog will just be transcripts of that presentation with notification that they are scheduling all the balance work for SoonGäó. If that happens, then even the abbadonification of the Punisher won't make up for the sheer hell of trying to outrun people who have been issued motorcycles after having ones own legs broken (difference in ease-of-plexing).
PS: Reason why many of us (or me at least) are so negative is because it smells a lot like the bits of null some of us joined FW to get away from. Lockouts, lol-cynojammers, increase in blobbage, EHP grinds and ISK for everything from eating to shitting (OK, that is not something I wanted to get away from ) and so forth.
And who said RP was boring! .. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 16:08:00 -
[470] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: encourage more FW pilots to spend time in space fighting and less time sitting in stations spinning ships and asking where the fleet is.
Locking people out of stations will merely move the systems people will do this. The current meta game requires FCs to be effective, and experience to be successful solo. This is not something you can just train to V, and it will not be resolved by any potential FW mechanic. People will always be risk averse, and when faced with impossible odds, people will just not fight. Locking someone out of station will not fundamentally change this in the least. All it will do is punish the side with less numbers, encourage blobs and do nothing to encourage a healthy FW.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Thank you though, for keeping a positive attitude and for being willing to try something before judging it. Players like you should have a lot of fun in the days ahead, I wish everyone else felt the same.
I've tested the current feature on sisi, and don't have to wait for some ccp dev who has never played FW to tell me how his **** ideas are going to improve things.
Sure, they have the right motivations to "get people to fight" but having a sudo sov mechanic where you have to battle NPC rats in plexes sounds like the worst idea ever. Not to mention that these NPCs are not all created equal.
You say "give it a chance", however the proposed changes offer approximately zero incentive to stay in milita. Hans perhaps you should try fighting outnumbered sometimes, we at least try fighting for something else than station denial as a CCP poster child for another failed expansion.
Hans you were supposed to save FW, not kill it.
edit- @Hans thanks for fighting for us |
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
402
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 16:11:00 -
[471] - Quote
Hans clearly and repeatedly said he is against the no docking rule. He has represented that he clearly communicated this to ccp.
Now we will just see if ccp will ignore the players posting feedback, and the csm delegate they elected. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
82
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 16:13:00 -
[472] - Quote
Who is the minnie asking all those relevant question in the QA phase of the presentation (he is the one who gets the last Q as well!)? His grasp of reason and common sense is almost Amarrian in scope! |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 16:35:00 -
[473] - Quote
@hans
@ccp FW dev dude
http://i.imgur.com/jNoGA.jpg |
Andrea Griffin
276
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 17:04:00 -
[474] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Because these aren't design decisions made from a role play or "just makes sense" standpoint. They are there to directly encourage consequence and add meaning to victory conditions, as well as to encourage more FW pilots to spend time in space fighting and less time sitting in stations spinning ships and asking where the fleet is. I understand that completely, and I agree to a point. I just like to have consistency with mechanics, because otherwise it just feels weird. Not a huge deal, just being a little picky. Fun gameplay is by far the most important, it would just be nice to have both.
One thing I think everyone can agree on - these changes are significant and the future of FW is going to be interesting. Eagerly awaiting the dev blog next week! CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
72
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 17:30:00 -
[475] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Because these aren't design decisions made from a role play or "just makes sense" standpoint. They are there to directly encourage consequence and add meaning to victory conditions, as well as to encourage more FW pilots to spend time in space fighting and less time sitting in stations spinning ships and asking where the fleet is. I understand that completely, and I agree to a point. I just like to have consistency with mechanics, because otherwise it just feels weird. Not a huge deal, just being a little picky. Fun gameplay is by far the most important, it would just be nice to have both. One thing I think everyone can agree on - these changes are significant and the future of FW is going to be interesting. Eagerly awaiting the dev blog next week!
From a pure gameplay perspective, I think it's suboptimal that neutrals (e.g. pirates) can roam the fw warspace completely without hindrance, but fw gangs are hindered in fw space.
I would go so far as to say if the station lockout thing must happen (and I don't think it should), it should lock out everyone but the faction that owns the system. |
Princess Nexxala
The Rock Hard Roosters Villore Accords
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 18:08:00 -
[476] - Quote
That would be quite fun if that were the case, but we both know CCP would never do that.
chatgris wrote: I would go so far as to say if the station lockout thing must happen (and I don't think it should), it should lock out everyone but the faction that owns the system.
Is sexy time? |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 18:43:00 -
[477] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:That would be quite fun if that were the case, but we both know CCP would never do that. chatgris wrote: I would go so far as to say if the station lockout thing must happen (and I don't think it should), it should lock out everyone but the faction that owns the system.
That's what's so damn frustrating about this.
CCP is giving us the disadvantages of nullsec (station lockouts) without any of the advantages: no denying safe harbour to our threats (the biggest threat to the gallente militia are neutrals/pirates who can still dock everywhere with ease, NOT the caldari miltiia), and no defence against random supercap blobs (cynojammers).
Not to mention plexing mechanics that, apart from defending a few key agent systems, has NO reward for defending a plex. We're back at "if I chase an opponent out of a plex my reward is to sit there bored for up to double the normal timer length with no reward".
I am waiting eagerly for that dev blog for some more concrete details but damn things are looking bleak right now. |
Fleet Warpsujarento
State Protectorate Caldari State
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 18:44:00 -
[478] - Quote
And most importantly none of the money. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
402
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 18:49:00 -
[479] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Andrea Griffin wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Because these aren't design decisions made from a role play or "just makes sense" standpoint. They are there to directly encourage consequence and add meaning to victory conditions, as well as to encourage more FW pilots to spend time in space fighting and less time sitting in stations spinning ships and asking where the fleet is. I understand that completely, and I agree to a point. I just like to have consistency with mechanics, because otherwise it just feels weird. Not a huge deal, just being a little picky. Fun gameplay is by far the most important, it would just be nice to have both. One thing I think everyone can agree on - these changes are significant and the future of FW is going to be interesting. Eagerly awaiting the dev blog next week! From a pure gameplay perspective, I think it's suboptimal that neutrals (e.g. pirates) can roam the fw warspace completely without hindrance, but fw gangs are hindered in fw space. I would go so far as to say if the station lockout thing must happen (and I don't think it should), ....
Of course, nothing requires the lock out to happen. Well unless you want faction war to be a stepping stone to null sec. Then I guess it "must" happen.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
402
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 18:59:00 -
[480] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Princess Nexxala wrote:That would be quite fun if that were the case, but we both know CCP would never do that. chatgris wrote: I would go so far as to say if the station lockout thing must happen (and I don't think it should), it should lock out everyone but the faction that owns the system.
That's what's so damn frustrating about this. CCP is giving us the disadvantages of nullsec (station lockouts) without any of the advantages: no denying safe harbour to our threats (the biggest threat to the gallente militia are neutrals/pirates who can still dock everywhere with ease, NOT the caldari miltiia), and no defence against random supercap blobs (cynojammers). Not to mention plexing mechanics that, apart from defending a few key agent systems, has NO reward for defending a plex. We're back at "if I chase an opponent out of a plex my reward is to sit there bored for up to double the normal timer length with no reward". I am waiting eagerly for that dev blog for some more concrete details but damn things are looking bleak right now.
According to ccp faction war is a "stepping stone" to null sec. So they want us to do the same sort of things as null sec just with fewer rewards.
Its sort of like level 3 missions are a stepping stone to level 4 missions. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
|
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
175
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 19:25:00 -
[481] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Andrea Griffin wrote: I still stand by my previous statements about it though: If a station will deny access to a law abiding enemy of the state, why on earth would any station allow a criminal to dock? From a stance of consistency it just doesn't make any sense at all. It also doesn't make sense that an NPC corporation not involved in the war would deny docking access.
Because these aren't design decisions made from a role play or "just makes sense" standpoint. They are there to directly encourage consequence and add meaning to victory conditions, as well as to encourage more FW pilots to spend time in space fighting and less time sitting in stations spinning ships and asking where the fleet is. Thank you though, for keeping a positive attitude and for being willing to try something before judging it. Players like you should have a lot of fun in the days ahead, I wish everyone else felt the same.
This argument on consequence is very flawed when there is less consequence to simply leave FW. If my Militia happens to be doing good because it's that time of the year when we have upper hand then there is no consequence.. If it happens to be the flip side when the Militia I'm in is less active then we get consequence..
However if the Militia can't come back from it, then it's easy enough to leave FW.. Docking problem solved and now more targets.
Any game mechanic that makes it harder to operate under that mechanic but easier to leave is a flawed game mechanic. Why should I place my corp at a disadvantage to pirates that can dock in the stations I can't?
With the increased cost of LP''s even the ISK is not so certain anymore.. I mean really? For doing my duty for the state I get to pay 1 million LP to buy a Navy Raven, while guys running lvl V's for the State War or any other Caldari NPC corp can get them for 600k lp?
Honestly the ISK income from FW isn't that great anymore with all the farmers.. In the past it was a decent reason to stay in Militia but today it's not. Not when you figure in the price it costs to buy the base T1 hull these days has doubled from a month or two ago cause the LP's to be even more worthless.
Now with LP's for plexing people will just stick noob alts in t1 frigs to go farm LPs instead of farming them with stealth bombers. Meaning even though the prices should go up on the Faction ships it now require 4x the grind to get them and there will likely be even more farmers competing for them.
Think about it.. so If I'm out plexing for LPs and get run off by enemy gang that out numbers me.. Have I really lost my chance to make LP? Nope.. I can just run a noob alt into that plex that belongs to the other side and collect the LP's on that end.
Best part is if they kill my alt then they lose both sec status & standings with their own Militia. Really? Has CCP even thought this stuff through even just a little bit? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
659
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 19:29:00 -
[482] - Quote
chatgris wrote:CCP is giving us the disadvantages of nullsec (station lockouts) without any of the advantages: no denying safe harbour to our threats (the biggest threat to the gallente militia are neutrals/pirates who can still dock everywhere with ease, NOT the caldari miltiia), and no defence against random supercap blobs (cynojammers).
Not to mention plexing mechanics that, apart from defending a few key agent systems, has NO reward for defending a plex. We're back at "if I chase an opponent out of a plex my reward is to sit there bored for up to double the normal timer length with no reward". ^ THIS. THIS. A Thousand times this!!!! Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 19:50:00 -
[483] - Quote
Im more optimistic I guess.
IMO
1) Currently we dont deploy from multiple stations. You have a couple systems where a corp lives and thats it. With docking rights close it means 3 things A) More corps will consolidate a system and B) You cant dock during a roam for repairs. C0 you cant dock up to avoid an in system blob, you're forced to warp from ss to ss
Those are the only issues that actively effect current play style. The rest is "we can do this now but we dont and noe we wont be able to do it and I still wont do it" argument.
I understand and it is a valid argument if you are currently using the mechanics in that way but the reality is we do not use the mechanics like that. Even pirates dont operate like that, sure they roam but the base out of a single area (kinaka, OMS,etc)
Its not like we leave a fleet of ships in random stations and pod there. We deploy from a given location (usually our home) and make the roam down and back. That is why I dont see this as a game breaking mechanic. A coprmate said "Ill quit if this happens" really? REALLY? You dont use the mechanic now, and since I am taking something away you dont use you're going to quit?
2) I think the new changes will reduce the farmers thus increaseing the value of LP. I don't want to speculate on the cost of lp rewards per lp yet as I havent seen the cost but its all relative, if a RNI cost 600k lp and if lp isnt as readily available the isk value will skyrocket. If the LP access has increased as well (from which my understanding it has) then its even steven.
Currently LP comes from missions
With patch LP comes from missions, plexing and killing. Of course the LP cost needs to go up.
3)Pirates accessing stations, yea so what. Again they dont stash ships all over the place they base out of a single location and then roam.
4) Cyno jammers, I agree this needs to happen.
I just dont see the changes as a "break" its more of a "sky is falling" menatlity and over reaction. The new changes only increase fighting and rewards to fight.
I for one cant wait to get isk for plexing. Besides even if defensive plexing doesnt yield lp rewards the kills will AND it brings the fight which many fw people are there for. Several of you already said fw lp isnt the primary thing anymore its the fights.
So what Im getting is a circular argument from you.
You say you dont care about the lp since isk farmers destroyed it but you care about gettign fights. Then you complain that defensive plexing doesnt yeild lp but it does yield fights?
myheadisspinning
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
175
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 19:56:00 -
[484] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Im more optimistic I guess.
IMO
1) Currently we dont deploy from multiple stations. You have a couple systems where a corp lives and thats it. With docking rights close it means 3 things A) More corps will consolidate a system and B) You cant dock during a roam for repairs. C0 you cant dock up to avoid an in system blob, you're forced to warp from ss to ss
Those are the only issues that actively effect current play style. The rest is "we can do this now but we dont and noe we wont be able to do it and I still wont do it" argument.
I understand and it is a valid argument if you are currently using the mechanics in that way but the reality is we do not use the mechanics like that. Even pirates dont operate like that, sure they roam but the base out of a single area (kinaka, OMS,etc)
Its not like we leave a fleet of ships in random stations and pod there. We deploy from a given location (usually our home) and make the roam down and back. That is why I dont see this as a game breaking mechanic. A coprmate said "Ill quit if this happens" really? REALLY? You dont use the mechanic now, and since I am taking something away you dont use you're going to quit?
2) I think the new changes will reduce the farmers thus increaseing the value of LP. I don't want to speculate on the cost of lp rewards per lp yet as I havent seen the cost but its all relative, if a RNI cost 600k lp and if lp isnt as readily available the isk value will skyrocket. If the LP access has increased as well (from which my understanding it has) then its even steven.
Currently LP comes from missions
With patch LP comes from missions, plexing and killing. Of course the LP cost needs to go up.
3)Pirates accessing stations, yea so what. Again they dont stash ships all over the place they base out of a single location and then roam.
4) Cyno jammers, I agree this needs to happen.
I just dont see the changes as a "break" its more of a "sky is falling" menatlity and over reaction. The new changes only increase fighting and rewards to fight.
I for one cant wait to get isk for plexing. Besides even if defensive plexing doesnt yield lp rewards the kills will AND it brings the fight which many fw people are there for. Several of you already said fw lp isnt the primary thing anymore its the fights.
So what Im getting is a circular argument from you.
You say you dont care about the lp since isk farmers destroyed it but you care about gettign fights. Then you complain that defensive plexing doesnt yeild lp but it does yield fights?
myheadisspinning
You might not stash ships all over the place but many of us do.
|
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 19:59:00 -
[485] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:
Ilots of stuff
You might not stash ships all over the place but many of us do.
I wouldnt say its for the purpose of deploying behind enemy line. I have ships stored at other locations but it is more coincidental.
Recall the last 3 times you have told your corp "go stash a ship in X system, we are going to JC over or pod over and surprise those flipping ****** evil spiting frogs" Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
74
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 20:02:00 -
[486] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Im more optimistic I guess.
IMO
1) Currently we dont deploy from multiple stations. You have a couple systems where a corp lives and thats it. With docking rights close it means 3 things A) More corps will consolidate a system and B) You cant dock during a roam for repairs. C0 you cant dock up to avoid an in system blob, you're forced to warp from ss to ss
or d), fw corps will move out of the fw warzone
BolsterBomb wrote: 3)Pirates accessing stations, yea so what. Again they dont stash ships all over the place they base out of a single location and then roam.
When they warp off they can dock, repair mods (even offlined ones) and armor, and get back in the fight. Being able to warp off in the middle of a fight and repair and get back within 60-90 seconds is a tactic I make great use of.
They can choose when to fight or when not to fight by simply docking, while we may not have that choice in FW space being in FW.
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
74
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 20:07:00 -
[487] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote: Recall the last 3 times you have told your corp "go stash a ship in X system, we are going to JC over or pod over and surprise those flipping ****** evil spiting frogs"
- Tech moon fight in Nisuwa a week ago - Deploying against eve university in Dudreda (we get there via shuttle/interceptor and switch to our stash of ships) - Plexing ships near Intaki (I have a frig and cruiser up there in case I swing by and find someone in a plex my drake can't get into)
And our base in Nenna started as "stash ships in the warzone so we can reship faster without going all the way back to Villore". Nenna was chosen because it was a central location to a wide area of the warzone.
Early on when the caldari used to try and dislodge us from our forward base in Nenna, we won many time because we were able to reship during the fight. Heck, I've even put ships in Tama and suj to do the same thing when the Caldari used to based in Nourv.
Now, this is a tactic that people not affiliated with FW can use to their hearts content, but is restricted to those in fction warfare. |
Bengal Bob
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 20:14:00 -
[488] - Quote
What makes me sad is I can't see which of these changes are going to encourage todays noobs to join and become the heroes of tomorrow.
What is being done to help the newer players join and climb out of the general militia channel instead of just being farmed for kills?
Everyone wants to preserve their interests, but it would be nice for the newer players to be given something. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 20:21:00 -
[489] - Quote
chatgris wrote:BolsterBomb wrote: Recall the last 3 times you have told your corp "go stash a ship in X system, we are going to JC over or pod over and surprise those flipping ****** evil spiting frogs"
- Tech moon fight in Nisuwa a week ago - Deploying against eve university in Dudreda (we get there via shuttle/interceptor and switch to our stash of ships) - Plexing ships near Intaki (I have a frig and cruiser up there in case I swing by and find someone in a plex my drake can't get into) And our base in Nenna started as "stash ships in the warzone so we can reship faster without going all the way back to Villore". Nenna was chosen because it was a central location to a wide area of the warzone. Early on when the caldari used to try and dislodge us from our forward base in Nenna, we won many time because we were able to reship during the fight. Heck, I've even put ships in Tama and suj to do the same thing when the Caldari used to based in Nourv. Now, this is a tactic that people not affiliated with FW can use to their hearts content, but is restricted to those in fction warfare.
This isnt the rule though its the exception. I dont disagree with the tactic I am just saying its the exception to the rule, most fights you're not going to warp of repair and come back. I dont disagree it has happend, Ive been in battles where it has happend and I see it happening more so in plex fights BUT I just dont see it as an every day game breaker.
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
175
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 20:22:00 -
[490] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Mutnin wrote:
Ilots of stuff
You might not stash ships all over the place but many of us do.
I wouldnt say its for the purpose of deploying behind enemy line. I have ships stored at other locations but it is more coincidental. Recall the last 3 times you have told your corp "go stash a ship in X system, we are going to JC over or pod over and surprise those flipping ****** evil spiting frogs"
It's not about JCing it's about being able to reship if you happen to lose a ship or need to reship for a fight. Example we roam over into Gal back systems and out to null quite often, so I have ships stashed over in Intaki & few other key areas we typically pass through as well as ammo/drone/cap booster stashes being those are things you often need while out on a roam.
Hell I had plans to have guys stash ships down on the Amarr front as well, so we could go do roams down there when we wanted a change, but with these changes we would now have to leave them somewhere in high sec or some off beat low sec system. |
|
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 20:23:00 -
[491] - Quote
chatgris wrote:BolsterBomb wrote: 3)Pirates accessing stations, yea so what. Again they dont stash ships all over the place they base out of a single location and then roam.
When they warp off they can dock, repair mods (even offlined ones) and armor, and get back in the fight. Being able to warp off in the middle of a fight and repair and get back within 60-90 seconds is a tactic I make great use of. They can choose when to fight or when not to fight by simply docking, while we may not have that choice in FW space being in FW.
Most fights do not happen this away unless its a LARGE LARGE fight. Most of the time points are spread or they bail completely. I dont recall having my fleet mates just simply warp off dock and repair and then return to the fight that is still going a minute later. I know it can happen, and has happened its just not the norm.
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
74
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 20:25:00 -
[492] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:This isnt the rule though its the exception.
...
Ive been in battles where it has happend and I see it happening more so in plex fights BUT I just dont see it as an every day game breaker.
Not for me. Since I primarily fly nano, I can usually disengage, repair, then come back.
if it were a full on "only the militia that holds the system can do this" tactic then it would be a strong motivator to keep the system. Instead, I have a very strong incentive just to drop FW and be a "faction aligned pirate".
I'm still advocating against station lockouts, but if they're coming in, at least make them so that "drop FW and just go full pirate" isn't the obvious option. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 20:29:00 -
[493] - Quote
chatgris wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:This isnt the rule though its the exception.
...
Ive been in battles where it has happend and I see it happening more so in plex fights BUT I just dont see it as an every day game breaker.
Not for me. Since I primarily fly nano, I can usually disengage, repair, then come back. if it were a full on "only the militia that holds the system can do this" tactic then it would be a strong motivator to keep the system. Instead, I have a very strong incentive just to drop FW and be a "faction aligned pirate". I'm still advocating against station lockouts, but if they're coming in, at least make them so that "drop FW and just go full pirate" isn't the obvious option.
Maybe you should stick around and fight then instead of running away :p Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 20:36:00 -
[494] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:Maybe you should stick around and fight then instead of running away :p
It's a good thing there are emoticons embedded in your comment :P
|
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 20:44:00 -
[495] - Quote
chatgris wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:Maybe you should stick around and fight then instead of running away :p It's a good thing there are emoticons embedded in your comment :P
Sure....side step the conversation Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
402
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 20:53:00 -
[496] - Quote
chatgris wrote:BolsterBomb wrote: Recall the last 3 times you have told your corp "go stash a ship in X system, we are going to JC over or pod over and surprise those flipping ****** evil spiting frogs"
- Tech moon fight in Nisuwa a week ago - Deploying against eve university in Dudreda (we get there via shuttle/interceptor and switch to our stash of ships) - Plexing ships near Intaki (I have a frig and cruiser up there in case I swing by and find someone in a plex my drake can't get into) And our base in Nenna started as "stash ships in the warzone so we can reship faster without going all the way back to Villore". Nenna was chosen because it was a central location to a wide area of the warzone. Early on when the caldari used to try and dislodge us from our forward base in Nenna, we won many time because we were able to reship during the fight. Heck, I've even put ships in Tama and suj to do the same thing when the Caldari used to based in Nourv. Now, this is a tactic that people not affiliated with FW can use to their hearts content, but is restricted to those in fction warfare.
My corp was considering several bases throughout the faction war region so we could reship and move out quickly.
Plus what corps did when plexing was completely meaningless does not mean that they wouldn't change tactics if plexing became more fun and meaningfull. Most faction war pilots used to not care about plexing at all because it was broken on a variety of levels. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:01:00 -
[497] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:chatgris wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:Maybe you should stick around and fight then instead of running away :p It's a good thing there are emoticons embedded in your comment :P Sure....side step the conversation
He has 2x Internal Nanofiber II's he is very slippery in conversations. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
76
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:31:00 -
[498] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:chatgris wrote:BolsterBomb wrote: Recall the last 3 times you have told your corp "go stash a ship in X system, we are going to JC over or pod over and surprise those flipping ****** evil spiting frogs"
- Tech moon fight in Nisuwa a week ago - Deploying against eve university in Dudreda (we get there via shuttle/interceptor and switch to our stash of ships) - Plexing ships near Intaki (I have a frig and cruiser up there in case I swing by and find someone in a plex my drake can't get into) And our base in Nenna started as "stash ships in the warzone so we can reship faster without going all the way back to Villore". Nenna was chosen because it was a central location to a wide area of the warzone. Early on when the caldari used to try and dislodge us from our forward base in Nenna, we won many time because we were able to reship during the fight. Heck, I've even put ships in Tama and suj to do the same thing when the Caldari used to based in Nourv. Now, this is a tactic that people not affiliated with FW can use to their hearts content, but is restricted to those in fction warfare. This isnt the rule though its the exception. I dont disagree with the tactic I am just saying its the exception to the rule, most fights you're not going to warp of repair and come back. I dont disagree it has happend, Ive been in battles where it has happend and I see it happening more so in plex fights BUT I just dont see it as an every day game breaker.
It isnt the exception. I am relatively poor, yet without logging in, I can think of 6 systems in Black Rise where I have at least 3 ships in a station. Maybe more. And docking up and repairing mid fight then coming back happens all of the time.
It is dumb to lock out FW people but allow neutrals to dock. It makes no sense, and removes all real penalty. It just requires some time on your alt. It is an illusory "penalty" that just encourages neutral alts and it should not be allowed. IMHO. |
Veli ANDAC
Federal Navy Special Forces
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 21:46:00 -
[499] - Quote
CCP says,
"The more upgraded a system's faction control, the better its respective LP store prices are and the more LP bonuses are received."
I checked LP store of FDU station at Fliet solar system which is upgraded level 5,
1) It seems a Dominix Navy Issue is still needs 600k LP. I can't see any system level upgrade benefit here for LP store?
2) What does CCP mean "LP bonuses" ? It needs more information about that.
3) Level 4 agents should be give more LP reward for missions at upgraded systems. This is important for who have no alt in game and make some isk for beginner players. |
Juoi Milar
Fury of Nardol
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 23:49:00 -
[500] - Quote
Just wanted to say that it all sounds good to me, sure there are some potential negative possibilities, especially for people that are more willing to to give up than try and play the game and fight. But for as many that leave because they are not willing to show their metal, I'm sure this new system will attract many new players to make up the numbers. I for one am looking forward to seeing where FW goes from here.
Hans > Do you know when/if the pirate faction idea will be implemented? I was wondering whether CCP may think about penalties for militia pilots that behave like pirates. I know lots of players will hate this idea, but in my mind the militia is supposed to protect the people of its racial society (providing they do not have negative sec of course) and in doing so (with the new system bonuses that LP and winning systems brings) help to encourage low sec industry for your faction giving you access to cheaper ships and mods.
I was wondering if CCP had thought about both sec & standing hits for pilots that blow up a pilot not only from their own militia, but of their own race.
|
|
Lord Azeroth
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 01:36:00 -
[501] - Quote
Never mind let's just see. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:08:00 -
[502] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:This isnt the rule though its the exception. I dont disagree with the tactic I am just saying its the exception to the rule, most fights you're not going to warp of repair and come back. I dont disagree it has happend, Ive been in battles where it has happend and I see it happening more so in plex fights BUT I just dont see it as an every day game breaker. Dude you don't want to know how many ships I have spread all over both FW zones. It's a gamebreaker w.r.t system occupancy. Nobody is going to be able to take a system (with a station) more than one jump away from a friendly station if there is even a little bit of resistance. Taking Rakapas was huge, btw. Y'all better take it back soon, or pray the CCP lords reset the FW zone.
|
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
746
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:09:00 -
[503] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:Any game mechanic that makes it harder to operate under that mechanic but easier to leave is a flawed game mechanic. Why should I place my corp at a disadvantage to pirates that can dock in the stations I can't?
This right here is a major flaw with docking restrictions, crap.
This whole thing is not very well thought out.
It needs to be put back on the drawing board and something else thought up.
I will never be in the PUNISHMENT IS INCENTIVE CAMP. Its not, you cant incentive anything with punishment. You make the rewards worth it instead. Are we really talking about consequences here or are we talking about punishment.
They are basically going to turn FW into a second job. Null sec light. Which is bull.
I mean rather then making us want to run plexs cause they are fun. Instead they are saying run plexs or else. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:12:00 -
[504] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:This whole thing is not very well thought out. It was very well thought out on the forums months ago.
|
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
746
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:13:00 -
[505] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:RougeOperator wrote:This whole thing is not very well thought out. It was very well thought out on the forums months ago.
You have amazing low standards for what is well thought out then.
This comes off as RP fluff more then good gameplay mechanics. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:21:00 -
[506] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:X Gallentius wrote:RougeOperator wrote:This whole thing is not very well thought out. It was very well thought out on the forums months ago. You have amazing low standards for what is well thought out then. This comes off as RP fluff more then good gameplay mechanics. Sorry, thought you were talking about station lockout. We concluded months ago that station lockout was stupid. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
177
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:27:00 -
[507] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: Sorry, thought you were talking about station lockout. We concluded months ago that station lockout was stupid.
If you read back through old forums topics there were loads of people that seemed to think for some reason that plexing should matter. Many complained about enemies docking in their stations..
In fact prior to you Gals deciding to start plexing 5 or 6 months ago it was often a common line from Gal general militia saying they didn't plex because it didn't mean anything.
Sadly, those whom wished for these changes seem to now have disappeared, and the rest of us get the result of the squeaky wheel getting the oil. CCP has just done what all those guys whom whined about plexing not mattering wanted.
|
Chimaira wolf
The Innocent Criminals Late Night Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 02:32:00 -
[508] - Quote
Check your mail Hans fark |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 05:20:00 -
[509] - Quote
Station lockouts would be fine if they would stop neutrals from being able to dock in the warzone as well, if their standings were low enough. If neutrals get to share the benefits of FW system upgrades, then they should share the penalties as well. Frankly I don't think CCP has the balls to do something like that so this will probably be easily gamed. I think it's a good idea in principle though.
But for christ's sake CCP, give us something actually worth upgrading a system for like cyno jammers. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 09:14:00 -
[510] - Quote
Roddy Mcrizzle wrote:Well i can say this, If this BS goes ahead i will be leaving militia. I will get all the benefits of being in low sec, w/o penalties... I rarley run fw missions any more as there are too many carebears driving the lp value to nearly 0... I am sitting on over 3m LP and i have no desire to use it...
With all that said, I can stay in low sec same systems i use now. I can still hunt and kill the same people, i just wont sit on a plex timer and spin for 10 - 30 mins.
Truly this is going bring piracy back in force. As all the FW pilots are going to quite worrying about fw as a whole and just kill everything.
LOL. As I said to peeps above, might be worth doing some homework before commenting on something you haven't done in a while. |
|
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
234
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 09:24:00 -
[511] - Quote
Chimaira wolf wrote:Check your mail Hans fark
Hans needs some wife-time, he'll be back in a day or two, lol. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 09:28:00 -
[512] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:Station lockouts would be fine if they would stop neutrals from being able to dock in the warzone as well, if their standings were low enough. If neutrals get to share the benefits of FW system upgrades, then they should share the penalties as well. Frankly I don't think CCP has the balls to do something like that so this will probably be easily gamed. I think it's a good idea in principle though.
But for christ's sake CCP, give us something actually worth upgrading a system for like cyno jammers.
Personally I didn't think that CCP had the balls to implement station lockout at all. So, there is hope that they'll ask neutral players also to HTFU and implement standings-based station access, expel opposing factions from empire hisec, and conquerable militia stations.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
193
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 09:29:00 -
[513] - Quote
Julius Foederatus wrote:But for christ's sake CCP, give us something actually worth upgrading a system for like cyno jammers. Only people in 0.0 are allowed cynojammers for sov upgrades. Only out there is it not game breaking. Apparently it's ok to get cut off from traveling with your supercap out there (where they were intended to be used), but it's not ok to get cut off from your traveling with your supercap through low sec (where they were not intended to operate).
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
403
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 11:53:00 -
[514] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:X Gallentius wrote: Sorry, thought you were talking about station lockout. We concluded months ago that station lockout was stupid.
If you read back through old forums topics there were loads of people that seemed to think for some reason that plexing should matter. Many complained about enemies docking in their stations.. In fact prior to you Gals deciding to start plexing 5 or 6 months ago it was often a common line from Gal general militia saying they didn't plex because it didn't mean anything. Sadly, those whom wished for these changes seem to now have disappeared, and the rest of us get the result of the squeaky wheel getting the oil. CCP has just done what all those guys whom whined about plexing not mattering wanted.
Everyone wanted some consequences this is true.
The station lock out idea was also suggested by a few. After all it doesn't take much in the way of creativity to say "Hey lets just apply this null sec idea to faction war" Just like the idea that the side that is losing the faction war should have incursion style losses to to armor armor and shield resistances was proposed. Lots of stupid ideas that make it so the losing side is prevented from effectively continuing the fight were suggested. This is true.
However X Gallentius is correct that these proposals were routinely rejected due to the fact they are bad on many levels.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
403
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 11:57:00 -
[515] - Quote
Lord Azeroth wrote:Never mind let's just see.
As for people saying "lets just wait and see." This makes very little sense. I know how often I dock in enemy controled stations. It happens pretty much everytime I roam or even take damage from rats in plexes during a roam. I typically just keep roaming through enemy space until I either die or have to go and then dock up.
This will mean I can not play eve unless I can make sure I have that extra uninterrupted time set aside. I often will just sign on for a half hour and roam to find a system busy with wts and pop open a plex hoping for fight. Now I am going to have to go jumping several jumps back to and from base everytime. These sorts of roams will be very limitted or likely even non-existant. When I am with a gang I usually can not stay online for the entire roam before I have to quit for the night. So this change means I will need to leave the gang even earlier so I can go several jumps back to base. So for me, I know this means less eve.
These are the facts of my real life schedule. This is also one reason why I don't roam in sov null sec. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
12
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 12:10:00 -
[516] - Quote
Cearain wrote:This will mean I can not play eve unless I can make sure I have that extra uninterrupted time set aside. I often will just sign on for a half hour and roam to find a system busy with wts and pop open a plex hoping for fight. Now I am going to have to go jumping several jumps back to and from base everytime. These sorts of roams will be very limitted or likely even non-existant. When I am with a gang I usually can not stay online for the entire roam before I have to quit for the night. So this change means I will need to leave the gang even earlier so I can go several jumps back to base. So for me, I know this means less eve.
Sorry I don't undestand this arguement. You don't have to dock-up before you log off.
Perhaps because I've RP'd the station lock-out concept myself as long as I've been playing FW that simply logging off in space seems natural.
There's plenty of options: POS, safe-spot logging, cloaking. I really don't understand your problem. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
403
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 12:36:00 -
[517] - Quote
Kade Jeekin wrote:Cearain wrote:This will mean I can not play eve unless I can make sure I have that extra uninterrupted time set aside. I often will just sign on for a half hour and roam to find a system busy with wts and pop open a plex hoping for fight. Now I am going to have to go jumping several jumps back to and from base everytime. These sorts of roams will be very limitted or likely even non-existant. When I am with a gang I usually can not stay online for the entire roam before I have to quit for the night. So this change means I will need to leave the gang even earlier so I can go several jumps back to base. So for me, I know this means less eve. Sorry I don't undestand this arguement. You don't have to dock-up before you log off. Perhaps because I've RP'd the station lock-out concept myself as long as I've been playing FW that simply logging off in space seems natural. There's plenty of options: POS, safe-spot logging, cloaking. I really don't understand your problem.
You may be right about logging off. But I thought they changed the mechanics so your ship stays in space for longer if you are aggressed even by npcs. Is this the case? If I am wrong on this mechanic then this might be a good solution.
As for fitting cloaks on all my ships yeah I thought of that. I already posted about how I think this will be a almost a requirement for anyone who wants to roam deep in enemy space. But I think they are expensive (at least the tech 2 ones that help you do the mwd trick to get past gate camps) and they just needlessly take up a high slot that I would prefer to put somehting else in. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 13:36:00 -
[518] - Quote
An attempt to get usefull system upgrades:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=106903&find=unread |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2321
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:35:00 -
[519] - Quote
The long-awaited Dev Blog is up!!
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28659
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Fleet Warpsujarento
State Protectorate Caldari State
88
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 17:37:00 -
[520] - Quote
Says things we already knew. Doesn't answer the question of sov reset. |
|
Amadeus3
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:05:00 -
[521] - Quote
"Please note such LP is split for all eligible members that meet all capture criteria; as such, 2 Amarr enlisted pilots capturing a Minor site would only receive 5,000 LPs each."
Wont this create a load of 'leech' alts that jump into plexes that other [layers have nearly finished before moving onto the next?
Will the reward be spit equally between a player who has completed 99% of the plex with a player who comes in for the last 1%?
Some clarification is needed here I think
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
82
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:30:00 -
[522] - Quote
So the blog has finally arrived .. and dare I say it .. "I told you so".
Mistress Doom'n'Gloom takes the win .. no contest.
*Sadness* |
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:35:00 -
[523] - Quote
I know it, CCP is trolling us. And the most important question's are still not answered:
Will sov stay sov or will occupancy becomme sov?
What happens if no one upgrades the sytem (i know it's unlikely with this nice benefits ), will plexing still give LP?
At least capturing a sytem will mean somthing than, cause we can upgrade them, no to mention preventing our enemy's from docking. But everything is fine everybody will like the extra production slot or the 10% reduced market taxes; everything we do in low sec is trading and producing that much that all station slots are used.
I know there is a NDA but can u get awnser for us hans. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:36:00 -
[524] - Quote
Amadeus3 wrote:"Please note such LP is split for all eligible members that meet all capture criteria; as such, 2 Amarr enlisted pilots capturing a Minor site would only receive 5,000 LPs each."
Wont this create a load of 'leech' alts that jump into plexes that other [layers have nearly finished before moving onto the next?
Will the reward be spit equally between a player who has completed 99% of the plex with a player who comes in for the last 1%?
Some clarification is needed here I think
If it had anything to do with who ran the button, you would have a hard time getting close range ships to guard the warp-in.
There was talk of only giving it to the one who started running the timer. That would have been awful.
Of course there's the leaching thing, but that provides opportunities for the enemy to camp the warp-in.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:41:00 -
[525] - Quote
Ahazu Sagam wrote:I know it, CCP is trolling us. And the most important question's are still not answered: Will sov stay sov or will occupancy becomme sov? What happens if no one upgrades the sytem (i know it unlikely with this nice benefits), will plexing still give LP? At least capturing a sytem will mean somthing than, cause we can upgrade them, no to mention preventing our enemy's from docking. But everything is fine everybody will like the extra production slot or the 10% reduced market taxes; everything we do in low sec is trading and producing that much that all station slots are used. I know there is a NDA but can u get awnser for us hans.
Ill try not to troll you too bad for this post
Please read the blog again:
Sovereignty control (system control) does not impact the LP rewards the WAR ZONE Control does. Taking sovereignty /upgrading sovereignty increase war zone control. Was the war zone control increases so does the rewards. From what the blog said the hub upgrades, etc improve station services.
Plexing gives LP Kills Give LP and finally missions will give LP
From the sounds of it fw missions will be greatly reduced for LP payout, they want people to fight not farm.
Their reasoning for allowing Neuts come in is spot on unless you want to have your own FW marketeers seeding lowsec (which I think occurs already)
The good this they did say is that this will be moitored and may change if it doesnt work the way they intend it to.
WHoever OWNS the system now will keep control (no sov reset), so IE if Rakapas is a Gallente captured system the Gallente will control it on patch day and you will be locked out of the station if your a Cal. Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 18:42:00 -
[526] - Quote
Ahazu Sagam wrote:I know it, CCP is trolling us. And the most important question's are still not answered: Will sov stay sov or will occupancy becomme sov? What happens if no one upgrades the sytem (i know it's unlikely with this nice benefits ), will plexing still give LP? At least capturing a sytem will mean somthing than, cause we can upgrade them, no to mention preventing our enemy's from docking. But everything is fine everybody will like the extra production slot or the 10% reduced market taxes; everything we do in low sec is trading and producing that much that all station slots are used. I know there is a NDA but can u get awnser for us hans. Read the comments thread to the dev blog.
- No reset.
- LP payout is 10k minor, 17.5k medium, 25k major, 30k major stronghold, 40k infrastructure hub (bunker). This is shared equally by all those eligible (i.e. in the plex when it is capped).
- If you have LP upgrades in the I-Hub, half the amount of LP rewarded through plexing by the attackers gets deducted from the I-Hub.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:00:00 -
[527] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:
Please read the blog again:
Sovereignty control (system control) does not impact the LP rewards the WAR ZONE Control does. Taking sovereignty /upgrading sovereignty increase war zone control. Was the war zone control increases so does the rewards. From what the blog said the hub upgrades, etc improve station services. .
You know what the "improved" station services are?! Thats the troll. Why should you upgrade your system? To get more empty production slots? Or do u want a reduced market tax that saves maybe 1 mil while u pay much more in LP? |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
46
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:19:00 -
[528] - Quote
Ahazu Sagam wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:
Please read the blog again:
Sovereignty control (system control) does not impact the LP rewards the WAR ZONE Control does. Taking sovereignty /upgrading sovereignty increase war zone control. Was the war zone control increases so does the rewards. From what the blog said the hub upgrades, etc improve station services. .
You know what the "improved" station services are?! Thats the troll. Why should you upgrade your system? To get more empty production slots? Or do u want a reduced market tax that saves maybe 1 mil while u pay much more in LP?
Because in order to get faster warzone control or increase it past a certain point you need system upgrades.
War Zone Control is the thing that dictates the LP rewards from my understanding Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
178
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:07:00 -
[529] - Quote
Just gonna say told yea so on the reset.. lol just trolling, but CCP has never reset null sec after changes so there really should have been no reasonable expectation that it would happen for FW.
As far as the LP for plexing.. It's obviously not very well thought out.
It encourages pilots to fly solo while capturing and not work as a team. In fact I can see it know, there will be arguments among people in their own Militia about guys stealing friendly LPs. Added to this there is no way to stop alts in your own Militia from farming guys LP's that are actually doing the work.
If Gals are taking Caldari systems and we don't happen to have numbers to stop them, then the best way to harass them is to use alts in Gal Militia to steal the LP's they get from running the plexes. Which of course I'm sure they will do the same as they already have more alts in Caldari Militia to farm Missions/Spy than Caldri has active players.. (ok maybe not that many but close)
While there is a mechanic in place to discourage blobbing of plexing on the attacking side. (split LP) there is no mechanic to discourage the blobing on the defending side. If we take out a small gang of 2 or 3 guys to attack Gal sites so we still make a decent amount of LPs in the process there is nothing to encourage the opposing side fight us with even numbers, being they get no LP for defending.
On the docking issues I wont beat a dead horse but honestly as a CEO of a decent sized FW corp that is growing daily.. I see this as a potential reason to eventually pull our corp out of FW.
The direction CCP is taking this by cutting mission rewards/splitting LP's ect is just giving everything to the side that happens to be winning "NOW". FW has always been a back and forth because over time each side of any war front would have it's ups and downs. The key factor is there was ability for them to always come back.
With system flips times now going to be about 35 hours with "ZERO" opposition, it's going to make capturing systems as rare as unicorns in space. Meaning we are likely to see a big push on systems Now up til patch day then it's done. CCP is basically giving everything to the sides that happen to have upper hand at the moment and then creating a playing field to take it back that will require 10 times the effort to take back what was taken with very little effort.
This means which ever sides end the day with the upper hand on patch day will likely stay that way because corps on the losing side will just go do something else as what we get for our effort will not be worth the time needed to be invested. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
46
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:36:00 -
[530] - Quote
I disagree Mutinin,
1) If you want to plex / pay for / not play on your primary to put an fw alt in with the other blobs, fine you earned it. If you really are that bored have at it.
2) Makes sense for the defensive plex (dont worry about blob) why should you penalize people for defending their system?
3) You forgot about all those kills that will add in with the pelx capturing
4) We get paid to fight "hoo raaah drill sargent!"
5) Time for the corps to come together and populate 2-3 systems and defend it till the death. Again IMO its not about stringing out 1-2 ships over 20 systems. (again I understand the vie I just disagree)
6) Remember how we talked about blob warefare will not work with these changes, I stand by that we will see multi hit-and run coordinated attacks now.
7)LP split, what else could they do for this? They have to do something and this is the only logical way if implementing it.
8) Im really excited
edit because of mutin's edit
9) Most people didnt plex because it didnt matter. You cant say that it will stay the same when now it matters. Ill plex now. Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
|
Neo Gabriel
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:39:00 -
[531] - Quote
ALRIGHT IT IS DONE FULL ****** MODE ENGAGED
ITS SO GREAT TO KNOW THAT CCP REYARDED DEVS WITH NO CLUE ABOUT SOMETHING DECIDE YET AGAIN TO CCPEE ON ANOTHER GAME NICHE WITHOUT ANY THOUGHT INTO THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS
STATION LOCKOUT MEANS THAT -10 PILOTS THAT LOSE THEIR STATIONS WILL HAVE TO QUIT FW OR MOVE 20 JUMPS TO THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE
YOU KNOW WHAT, I AM NOT GOING TO EXPLAIN WHY THIS IS GOING TO BE THE FINAL NAIL ON THE FW COFFIN.
WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN 3 MONTHS IS THERE WILL ONLY BE 2 MILITIAS LEFT AND THE LOSING SIDES WILL NEVER RECOVER
>>>WHY HOW COULD THEY, AT THEIR WORST THIER LP REWARDS WILL COST 4X AS MUCH, THEY CANT DOCK ANYWHERE IN LOWSEC, THEY CANT RETREIVE THEIR SHIPS/ITEMS/REPAIR/RELOAD... WHO IN THEIR RIGHT FUQUING MIND WOULD STAY ANCHORED BY SUCH RESTRICTIONS???????????
>>>SPECIALLY WHEN A MUCH SIMPLER SOLUTION IS AVAILABLE: ---QUIT FW--- AND BEHOLD, YOU ARE FREE AGAIN!
LONG LIVE LOWSEC, LONG LIVE THE FEDERATION (as long as until my home stations are not locked out) LONG LIVE -10,
HERE COMES INFERO, HERALDING A NEW AGE OF LOWSEC PIRACY |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
46
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:43:00 -
[532] - Quote
Neo Gabriel wrote:ALRIGHT IT IS DONE FULL ****** MODE ENGAGED
ITS SO GREAT TO KNOW THAT CCP REYARDED DEVS WITH NO CLUE ABOUT SOMETHING DECIDE YET AGAIN TO CCPEE ON ANOTHER GAME NICHE WITHOUT ANY THOUGHT INTO THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS
STATION LOCKOUT MEANS THAT -10 PILOTS THAT LOSE THEIR STATIONS WILL HAVE TO QUIT FW OR MOVE 20 JUMPS TO THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE
YOU KNOW WHAT, I AM NOT GOING TO EXPLAIN WHY THIS IS GOING TO BE THE FINAL NAIL ON THE FW COFFIN.
WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN 3 MONTHS IS THERE WILL ONLY BE 2 MILITIAS LEFT AND THE LOSING SIDES WILL NEVER RECOVER
>>>WHY HOW COULD THEY, AT THEIR WORST THIER LP REWARDS WILL COST 4X AS MUCH, THEY CANT DOCK ANYWHERE IN LOWSEC, THEY CANT RETREIVE THEIR SHIPS/ITEMS/REPAIR/RELOAD... WHO IN THEIR RIGHT FUQUING MIND WOULD STAY ANCHORED BY SUCH RESTRICTIONS???????????
>>>SPECIALLY WHEN A MUCH SIMPLER SOLUTION IS AVAILABLE: ---QUIT FW--- AND BEHOLD, YOU ARE FREE AGAIN!
LONG LIVE LOWSEC, LONG LIVE THE FEDERATION (as long as until my home stations are not locked out) LONG LIVE -10,
HERE COMES INFERO, HERALDING A NEW AGE OF LOWSEC PIRACY
BECAUSE MY CAPS LOCK KEY GOT STUCK RIGHT?
Not everyone is a pie in militia and there are actually very few corps that are militia that are -10. Slapd went sole pirate and then joined fw again? If you were so pie hungry why did you come back to fw. You cant make a valid point when your own logic you disobey.
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
77
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 20:47:00 -
[533] - Quote
Yeah - the most important part is the warzone control it seems. Will make LP store prices 4x cheaper or more expensive than they currently are...
That is a pretty good carrot and stick.
I still don't agree with the neutral docking thing, but frankly I'm excited about the rest. I will keep an open mind. They obviously put a lot of work into this. If it sucks, they will change it.
And Neo - the caps lock button. Sheesh. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
404
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 21:45:00 -
[534] - Quote
"First, the offer requirements in the respective faction LP store will decrease. As such, at the lowest tier, LP store offers will be 4x times more expensive as they are now, while at the highest tier, they will be 4 times as cheap. This only applies to ISK and LP requirements for offers, not tags or items. It also only counts for the 4 Factional Warfare militia LP stores; no other corporation will be affected."
I think I must have this wrong.
A navy micro auxillary power core now cost 1500 lp.
If I am fighting for a losing faction and therefore have the lowest tier it will be 4xs more expensive or 6000 lp.
If I am fighting for the winning faction and therefore have the highest tier it be "4xs as cheap" or 375 lp.
If that is correct then for the majority of items in the lp store the winning side effectively gets 16xs the lp for a pvp kill.
The losing side would get effectively 1/16 the lp for a pvp kill with respect to the shared items. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
750
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 22:50:00 -
[535] - Quote
Well its clear that CCP wants to basically kill FW. The goal being FW light.
I could put up with most of the other not well thought out and implemented stuff. But the station lockout is a deal breaker.
Maybe its just me but I tend to think the goal should be to make gameplay interesting and fun. That is not what the road ccp wants to go down in seems. They are in Punishment mindset and more high entry barriers.
Account canceled. Luckily i only paid 3 months in this time instead a year like last time. Was a wise move.
I dont even have the will to log in anymore. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
198
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 22:52:00 -
[536] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
If that is correct then for the majority of items in the lp store the winning side effectively gets 16xs the lp for a pvp kill.
The losing side would get effectively 1/16 the lp for a pvp kill with respect to the shared items.
I'm glad I'm on the winning side. We will gladly accept your surrender and will take you into our militia if you agree to put down your arms and farm in peace. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
382
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:04:00 -
[537] - Quote
The new system service bonuses are so useless it's hilarious.
At level 5:
- 50% cost reduction of clones. Looks nice, but there really aren't that many medical services in FW zones and they aren't really spread out sensibly either.
- 50% reduction in market and contract fees. With all the reductions from skills and standings those fees are already close to neglible. And it's not like the FW systems located in low-sec will ever grow into a serious market hub.
- 5 more industry and science slots. As if the low sec industry slots are 100% occupied. Even in hubs, queues generally only take a few days to clear, and 5 more slots won't matter much there either. The science slots are a bit more useful, but it is still in a low-sec station.
Pathetic.
How about increasing all market fees substantially so FW reductions actually make a difference? How about making the benefits FW-only or at least require a good standing? How about taking a good look at the ridiculous distribution of stations and services, totally randomly generated over nine years ago and never adjusted or balanced. How about making the renting cost of industry and science slots depend on the local demand, so they become an actual price-factor so the production in empire, now mostly within a few jumps of Jita, will have to spread out, perhaps looking for the FW-benefits.
The problem with FW benefits is not that they are too meager, it's that the rest of the pilots in empire already have it very easy with negligible station fees and all the service capacity they require in the safety of high-sec, far away from insecure FW-space. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:06:00 -
[538] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:... Maybe its just me but I tend to think the goal should be to make gameplay interesting and fun. That is not what the road ccp wants to go down in seems. They are in Punishment mindset and more high entry barriers. ...
The logistics involved with invading hostile space are some of the only really enjoyable aspects about nullsec. It's a damn challenge (as well it should be) and I'm honestly looking forward to it. Right now you just **** around all over the place with no care in the world, and now you actually have to consider where you're going and what you're doing? I guess I don't know 100% how I feel about the lock out, but I'm sure as hell gonna give it a try instead of ragequitting.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
198
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:10:00 -
[539] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:. The science slots are a bit more useful...
for neutrals to farm.... Can't believe they are allowing neutrals to siphon off rewards. |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
750
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:13:00 -
[540] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:RougeOperator wrote:... Maybe its just me but I tend to think the goal should be to make gameplay interesting and fun. That is not what the road ccp wants to go down in seems. They are in Punishment mindset and more high entry barriers. ... The logistics involved with invading hostile space are some of the only really enjoyable aspects about nullsec. It's a damn challenge (as well it should be) and I'm honestly looking forward to it. Right now you just **** around all over the place with no care in the world, and now you actually have to consider where you're going and what you're doing? I guess I don't know 100% how I feel about the lock out, but I'm sure as hell gonna give it a try instead of ragequitting.
It should not go live until people have tested it thoroughly on sisi sigma. But they are steamrolling this crap out without much testing.
Once something is implemented its hard to take it back. Thats the problem. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
|
mental maverick
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:14:00 -
[541] - Quote
Cearain wrote:"First, the offer requirements in the respective faction LP store will decrease. As such, at the lowest tier, LP store offers will be 4x times more expensive as they are now, while at the highest tier, they will be 4 times as cheap. This only applies to ISK and LP requirements for offers, not tags or items. It also only counts for the 4 Factional Warfare militia LP stores; no other corporation will be affected."
I think I must have this wrong.
A navy micro auxillary power core now cost 1500 lp.
If I am fighting for a losing faction and therefore have the lowest tier it will be 4xs more expensive or 6000 lp.
If I am fighting for the winning faction and therefore have the highest tier it be "4xs as cheap" or 375 lp.
If that is correct then for the majority of items in the lp store the winning side effectively gets 16xs the lp for a pvp kill.
The losing side would get effectively 1/16 the lp for a pvp kill with respect to the shared items. This is actually going to be quite interesting to see how it develops since LP doesn't work quite like a straight isk payout. Supply and demand plays a big part in the LP to isk conversion rate. For the winning side LP will get devalued as you can get more items for less LP and at the same time tag prices will increase as the demand for those increases. As more items can be gotten for less LP the supply to market for those items will increase thus increasing competition and lowering prices of said items. This will probably negate some of that seemingly huge isk making opportunity for the winning side.
For shared items any swings in which side is winning will probably have little to no impact but for the faction specific items that can only be gotten through FW LP stores, like the datacores that got introduced in the FW LP stores, these swings might be considerable making LP to isk conversion for the losing side on those items higher and atleast negate some of the effects of the worse LP offers.
I'm not sure how many items in the FW LP stores are actually FW specific since I haven't run a FW mission ever, but as a trader doing mostly mid/long term speculation I would love to see more Faction specific items that can only be gotten through the FW LP stores and I think it would benefit all of the militias aswell by creating a niche for FW LP.
PS. It's rather late so I'm not sure I got my point across but basicly, I don't think it will be as bad as it looks.
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
31
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:16:00 -
[542] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: The losing side would get effectively 1/16 the lp for a pvp kill with respect to the shared items.
I'm glad I'm on the winning side. We will gladly accept your surrender and will take you into our militia if you agree to put down your arms and farm in peace. You want my api for the FW hugboard?
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:26:00 -
[543] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:
It should not go live until people have tested it thoroughly on sisi sigma. But they are steamrolling this crap out without much testing.
Once something is implemented its hard to take it back. Thats the problem.
Also I went to FW cause of the fact i can just log in gets some fights and then take a break. I dont want it to be like null sec or have to work at doing things like null sec. Thats not why i joined FW.
IF i wanted nullsec gameplay i would be in nullsec.
I wish people would stop saying this is like nullsec. From any point in FW lowsec you're never more than maybe 5 or 6 jumps from a station that wont be effected by this change. People are so spoiled about never having to move and just sitting on gates hoping some idiot jumps into you that it's really spoiling how much fun this could be. Granted, no one wants to have the possibility of things being locked forever (i.e what null can do) but in reality, that's never gonna happen. The absolute worst thing that can happen is some inconvenience to you, and you're getting the enjoyment of one of the only challenging aspects of nullsec (the logistics of an invasion).
I beg all of you naysayers to at least give this a try before freaking out and shouting about the sky falling.
Hell, I'd be 100% open to a temporary "don't plex the other guy's systems" until this comes out so that no one gets butthurt - we're all in this game for the fun, after all. I don't want to "win" the war - that ruins everything for everyone. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
77
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:28:00 -
[544] - Quote
mental maverick wrote:For the winning side LP will get devalued as you can get more items for less LP and at the same time tag prices will increase as the demand for those increases. As more items can be gotten for less LP the supply to market for those items will increase thus increasing competition and lowering prices of said items. This will probably negate some of that seemingly huge isk making opportunity for the winning side.
On the flip side though, having significantly cheaper faction ships might increase demand, and ISK per LP might even increase (more likely with non-gallente boats unfortunately, but maybe one day CCP will fix gallente > frigs). |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
198
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 00:43:00 -
[545] - Quote
chatgris wrote:On the flip side though, having significantly cheaper faction ships might increase demand, and ISK per LP might even increase (more likely with non-gallente boats unfortunately, but maybe one day CCP will fix gallente > frigs). Someday soon chatgris will put the 2300 m/s, 800 dps ENI in the "Gallente boats that are cool" category. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:02:00 -
[546] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:chatgris wrote:On the flip side though, having significantly cheaper faction ships might increase demand, and ISK per LP might even increase (more likely with non-gallente boats unfortunately, but maybe one day CCP will fix gallente > frigs). Someday soon chatgris will put the 2300 m/s, 800 dps ENI in the "Gallente boats that are cool" category.
No. Chatgris has the mental disease of drakebrain. He cannot help himself. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:06:00 -
[547] - Quote
Oh, and can someone please explain to me WTF a datacore is, and why they are important? It appears I should be buying some soon. |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
43
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:09:00 -
[548] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Oh, and can someone please explain to me WTF a datacore is, and why they are important? It appears I should be buying some soon.
they are used for invention - it's a minor cost in the grand scheme of the invention process and the only reason people are flipping out is because their passive iskfarm is getting a nerfbat to the face.
Even if the price of DCs doubles or tripples, you wont see more than a hiccup in price change on t2 items. |
Yogsoloth
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 01:28:00 -
[549] - Quote
Quote:In the reward ladder, helping your faction in territorial warfare should reward the most, followed by PvP, and then finally PvE with missions.
Does this mean Mission LP payout is getting nerfed ??? Can we get confirmation one way or the other.
Quote: Minor sites: 10,000 LPs Standard sites: 17,500 LPs Major sites: 25,000 LPs Major Stronghold or Major Compound sites: 30,000 LPs Infrastructure Hub: 40,000 LPs
Because this doesn't look like it will be the top payout on the proposed ladder system
Quote: Destroying an Abaddon fitted with tech 2 mods: gained LP = ( 196m ISK GÇô 161m ISK + 46m ISK + 0 ) / 10000 = 8100 LP (previous system would have paid 500 LP) Destroying a Machariel fitted with tech 2 mods: gained LP = (1.170m ISK GÇô 95m ISK + 40m ISK + 0 ) / 10000 = 111500 LP (previous system would have paid 750 LP) Destroying a Providence with 1 b full of cargo: gained LP = (1115m ISK GÇô 839m ISK + 0 + 1000m ISK ) / 10000 = 127600 LP (previous system would have paid 2000 LP) Destroying a Punisher with tech 1 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK GÇô 312k ISK + 100k ISK + 0) / 10000 = around 24 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP) Destroying a Punisher with tech 2 fitting: gained LP = (450k ISK GÇô 312k ISK + 7.8m ISK +) / 10000 = around 794 LP (previous system would have paid 25 LP)
And the paltry LP offered for pvp won't beat the current mission payouts. I mean I don't see alot of BS fleets being fielded these days in FW. Dessies, AF's and T1 Cruisers all day but not many BS fleets.
Quote: But don't take our word for it: save some cheap PvP fitted ships, and when Inferno hits, give it a shot. Go in there, shoot stuff, get killed and experiment with tactics - that is the point. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
84
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:15:00 -
[550] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:..Hell, I'd be 100% open to a temporary "don't plex the other guy's systems" until this comes out so that no one gets butthurt - we're all in this game for the fun, after all. I don't want to "win" the war - that ruins everything for everyone. How magnanimous of you considering that you Shakorites need just the one person per plex whereas we, the Righteous Emancipators, need an entire damn gang
How did datacores help balance it again? When one side collapses and starves the market of a certain type of core, the price will go so high that the R&D cores becomes even more profitable than now .. invention costs might increase a tad (cores are not that big of an expense), but the inability for a collapsed side to sell their cores at anything but a loss acts as a kick in the balls on a person already on the ground .. awesome design.
There is absolutely nothing in the blog entry that acts as prevention against the snowball, quite the contrary.
The more warzone control, the better off in literally all aspects .. and the crap about plexing (contributing to warzone control) supposed to be the best income source .. even if all systems were reset you'd still be able to take in 25k+ LP in a few minutes compared the twenty minutes of a major which usually take more than one person. Now add complete control of all space .. plus the umpteen percent LP gain across the board .. FarmVilleGäó here we go.
On the upside: LP for the two "winning" militia's will be so plentiful that the faction hulls/mods will blot out the suns and we might see some more of the very rare T2 ships (pretty much all T2 Matar cruiser hulls) as inventors essentially get their cores for free.
Allow me to reiterate my previous suggestion to Mr. Jagerblitzen: Convince CCP that they are well served by hiring and/or collaborating with a sociologist, psychologist or antrhopologist .. they clearly have no clue when it comes to human nature, even in a world of their making and under their complete control.
|
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
198
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:19:00 -
[551] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:There is absolutely nothing in the blog entry that acts as prevention against the snowball, quite the contrary. QCATS is recruiting. Feel free to pay us a "small" monthly fee to rent Gallente FW standings and farm our missions once yours become worthless. Space is limited.
I'm looking at you Super Chair. We want you back. |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
181
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:29:00 -
[552] - Quote
Well so far the new changes look good spent some time running plexes and poking around with the new FW frount page. Still need to look at the LP store and then try out some pvp and system fliping. So any one want to help me try and figure out how fast you can flip systems on sisi? I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
84
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 04:47:00 -
[553] - Quote
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:Well so far the new changes look good spent some time running plexes and poking around with the new FW frount page. Still need to look at the LP store and then try out some pvp and system fliping. So any one want to help me try and figure out how fast you can flip systems on sisi? If it is x5 VP needed, then you are looking 150 plexes or there about .. ideal system is one with a DT-shuffle stack of 20, leaving 130 .. divide that with 6 (3 plex every 30 mins) to get hours it will take.
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Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 06:41:00 -
[554] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:Hell, I'd be 100% open to a temporary "don't plex the other guy's systems" until this comes out so that no one gets butthurt - we're all in this game for the fun, after all. I don't want to "win" the war - that ruins everything for everyone.
Sadly (if what you say is true, which I doubt) you are in the minority. People will snowball to winning side because they dont want to lose ships and make shitton of isk without feeling threathened. Nobody in Eve is in it for the good fights. Not me, not you. People want to make as unfair gank as possible, without losing a ship and then go to forums to boast about it and feel smug.
Bit like Chatgris boasting elsewhere "I went to fight eve-uni because they fight, dont blob and dont smack in local like Caldari". Then looking at his combat history it's full of "t3 alt boosted nano drake kills t1 fitted frigates" fights. So I quess that says enough about human nature.
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Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
165
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 07:39:00 -
[555] - Quote
Guys. Sigma once FC'd from his car while he was driving. It was loltastic http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
234
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 07:52:00 -
[556] - Quote
Silence iKillYouu wrote:Guys. Sigma once FC'd from his car while he was driving. It was loltastic
One time, Sigma FC'd from twitter. #primary @ShaleeLianne Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2341
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 08:37:00 -
[557] - Quote
Silence iKillYouu wrote:Guys. Sigma once FC'd from his car while he was driving. It was loltastic
EVE is real. I was there! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2341
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 08:38:00 -
[558] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:There is absolutely nothing in the blog entry that acts as prevention against the snowball, quite the contrary. QCATS is recruiting. Feel free to pay us a "small" monthly fee to rent Gallente FW standings and farm our missions once yours become worthless. Space is limited. I'm looking at you Super Chair. We want you back.
You just made some developer very happy Working as intended. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
165
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 08:54:00 -
[559] - Quote
Dear Amarr. U will soon require a Permit to be able to dock in lowsec. U can buy them from any Minmatar pilot. Cost is 100Mill a week to rent the station u live in.
http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 09:04:00 -
[560] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:You just made some developer very happy Working as intended.
So you admit that you never wanted to stop station lock-out after all and were always biased for your own side?
|
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
198
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 09:14:00 -
[561] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:X Gallentius wrote:I'm looking at you Super Chair. We want you back. You just made some developer very happy Working as intended. So all of this was just to get Super Chair back into QCATS?!! |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 10:27:00 -
[562] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:You just made some developer very happy Working as intended. So you admit that you never wanted to stop station lock-out after all and were always biased for your own side?
that is obviously what he said and what he meant. Man, where do you get those powers of deduction!? I WANT SOME!
() |
Sui'Djin
Black Rise Guerilla Forces
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 10:29:00 -
[563] - Quote
Winning militias get a bunch of advantages LP-wise. I got that. Now we were told that the losing militia would get something in return, to keep fighting worth while (besides 'for the state' or whatever ). Unfortunately I don't see where that advantage is.
Is it the fact, that the loser has more opportunities to do offensive plexes (because there are many systems owned by the enemy militia) and earn LP that's not worth much (maybe 1/4th of the regular ISK)? How is the underdog supposed to get back to the fight if those disadvantages are so big?
No troll intended, I maybe don't see the obvious. Could someone tell me? |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 11:04:00 -
[564] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:that is obviously what he said and what he meant. Man, where do you get those powers of deduction!? I WANT SOME! ( )
So what else he then suggested with his response to X gal than "I am glad this system benefits gallente so much they can become so smug that it enables farming isk from opposing militias who will never again be able to rally the numbers needed since all isk starved puppies join the outnumbering side".
Since this seems to represent CCP's official stance in regards to FW, is it any wonder why people are leaving it entirely in droves or joining the sides which currently (and will have it for all eternity now) have the upper hand?
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
198
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 11:11:00 -
[565] - Quote
Sui'Djin wrote:No troll intended, I maybe don't see the obvious. Could someone tell me? I think somehow the answer is "datacores". Haven't figured it out. Plus your LP will generate more isk/lp since there will be less. |
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 11:34:00 -
[566] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Sui'Djin wrote:No troll intended, I maybe don't see the obvious. Could someone tell me? I think somehow the answer is "datacores". Haven't figured it out. Plus your LP will generate more isk/lp since there will be less.
While you need 4 times the LP to get your items, clearly an advantage for the loosing site. Cause there are so many usefull unique items in the milita LP store! Oh wait, there is just one in the amarr milita LP store. Go guys, buy all the navy geddons now! They will be pretty expensive after the patch . We are all being trolled by the devs. |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
181
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 12:02:00 -
[567] - Quote
Not shure if the "lossing side" will be at that mutch of a disadvantage. The more systems your opponent controls the easyer it is to just roam around an do minors for lp. then once you flip more systems you cash the lp in. I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do. |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 12:08:00 -
[568] - Quote
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:Not shure if the "lossing side" will be at that mutch of a disadvantage. The more systems your opponent controls the easyer it is to just roam around an do minors for lp. then once you flip more systems you cash the lp in.
And why would losing side get any systems back? Other side plexes there for 39 hours, enemy fleet arrives after 39.5 hours and sits in system and undoes the whole work. You and I both know that "no LP for running defensive plexes" does not stop that and people will happily stay awake 12-36 hours to p.ss on their enemys cereals so to speak.
Can you give any reason why Caldari or Amarr would have more than 0-2 low-sec stations before expansion hits because they can all be flipped well before expansion arrives? |
Sui'Djin
Black Rise Guerilla Forces
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 12:09:00 -
[569] - Quote
Ahazu Sagam wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Sui'Djin wrote:No troll intended, I maybe don't see the obvious. Could someone tell me? I think somehow the answer is "datacores". Haven't figured it out. Plus your LP will generate more isk/lp since there will be less. While you need 4 times the LP to get your items, clearly an advantage for the loosing site. Cause there are so many usefull unique items in the milita LP store! Oh wait, there is just one in the amarr milita LP store. Go guys, buy all the navy geddons now! They will be pretty expensive after the patch . We are all being trolled by the devs.
That's what I was thinking of. What is still missing is the aspect of 'diminishing return' mentioned by the Devs. Looks like this is not implemented yet, so the pendulum has no real momentum to swing back for the losing side.
Time will tell. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
198
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 12:36:00 -
[570] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:So what else he then suggested with his response to X gal than "I am glad this system benefits gallente so much they can become so smug that it enables farming isk from opposing militias who will never again be able to rally the numbers needed since all isk starved puppies join the outnumbering side".
Since this seems to represent CCP's official stance in regards to FW, is it any wonder why people are leaving it entirely in droves or joining the sides which currently (and will have it for all eternity now) have the upper hand?
Agreed. The new rewards system appears at first glance to be very lolworthy. It makes me feel very warm inside that a CCP Dev would love my idea to make isk by renting my Gallente standings to others. |
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BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
48
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 13:28:00 -
[571] - Quote
You have to remember when all the systems are finished being flipped, there is only fw missions to farm and the devs already said this will be getting hit with the nerf bat.
There is always a reason to be on the losing side -- Isk Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Lil Nippy
State War Academy Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 13:30:00 -
[572] - Quote
Wow good to see that the crying and whining is still going 30 pages strong.
Just shut up! What you raging nerds fail to realize is that Faction Warfare can not get any worst than what it is now...really, it can't. The population of all 4 militias has steadily declined in the past 5 months, fighting has diminished even more and usually 50 of the 100 of players in militia channel are mission running, with another 40 afk.
Currently FW is worthless. Plexing is worthless, the PvP is almost non existent, and now markets have been so saturated by faction items that even LP is nearly worthless (10m slicer...lol).
Faction Warfare has nowhere to go but up, so please, STFU and let CCP at least try to do something....ANYTHING to get this game mechanic up to speed. CCP can not "kill" FW, it is already dead. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
85
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 13:40:00 -
[573] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:...There is always a reason to be on the losing side -- Isk True .. except that being on the winning side gives you a % bonus to LP earned which will probably be far more than what is cut (ref: Incursion changes) AND the winning side gets a staggering discount on everything in their LP store.
In short: Even if missions LP/ISK per hour is halved, it will still be better than being in a collapsed militia with regards to earning potential.
Lil Nippy wrote:Wow good to see that the crying and whining is still going 30 pages strong.... What would you have us do? We are knee-deep in crap and now they want to add more so we are up to our waists .. if that isn't complaint worthy I don't know what is
|
Seraphine Keratuus
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 13:49:00 -
[574] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote: Can you give any reason why Caldari or Amarr would have more than 0-2 low-sec stations before expansion hits because they can all be flipped well before expansion arrives?
Because we are not you ? I dont know about the Gals but i cant see us Minmtar flipp all the Systems.
We only captured what we have now because we actually listened to CCP at Fanfest and we wanted a Bufferzone... |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 14:14:00 -
[575] - Quote
Lil Nippy wrote:fighting has diminished even more and usually 50 of the 100 of players in militia channel are mission running, with another 40 afk. Currently FW is worthless. Plexing is worthless, the PvP is almost non existent, and now markets have been so saturated by faction items that even LP is nearly worthless (10m slicer...lol)..
I tell you that the militia channels will be in two months time. It will be 200 guys in Gallente/Matar militia channels, all whom will be mission running and there will be no pvp at all. Nothing i've seen in SiSi or from CCP convinces me otherwise.
And Seraphine, why not? This is a golden opportunity to remove docking possibilities from the enemy entirely and get rid of all the tiresome pvp that gets in the way of isk grinding which all proper 0.0 pubbies strive for, especially since FW is now turning into "stepping stone" and all that.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2342
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:10:00 -
[576] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote: So what else he then suggested with his response to X gal than "I am glad this system benefits gallente so much they can become so smug that it enables farming isk from opposing militias who will never again be able to rally the numbers needed since all isk starved puppies join the outnumbering side".
Since this seems to represent CCP's official stance in regards to FW, is it any wonder why people are leaving it entirely in droves or joining the sides which currently (and will have it for all eternity now) have the upper hand?
EDIT: And CCP decided to shaft caldari a bit more by nerfing merlin...as if it needed it.
LOL!! My comment had nothing to do with the Gallente or Caldari specifically, I'm just saying that the very notion of a winning faction renting mission hub systems back to the loser for mission purposes is the kind of crazy gameplay possibilities that could emerge from the new system. I doubt we'll actually see it, but who knows how the markets and PvP entities will intersect in the new war and motivate people to take or lose space accordingly.
But by all means, continue with the fantasy that the big bad developers are out to poop on your specific faction with their new rules. Whatever helps you sleep better at night.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
20
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:23:00 -
[577] - Quote
Im getting more and more to the point were i would actually prefer a delay of the FW "features". There are still so many bugs and missing features on SISI. They managed to implement consequences and visiability (UI guys did a great job here) but were is the reward and the better gameplay? Everything looks unfinished and in some parts even crude.
- you can dock in enemy high sec but not in thier low sec systems
- no npc, plex or geographical rebalance
- you can still freefarm plexes with an alt in a frig
- useless system upgrades (i would realy like to know which dev was responsable for that)
- docking restrictions for free (you are forcing corp's to move hundred's (in some case even thousand's) of ships multiple jumps through low sec)
- there is just an RP reson to join the losing faction (4x LP costs and just 1 or 2 usefull unique items in the LP store)
- the winning sites LP will becomme increasingly useless due to farming carebears (why would you want to be on the winning site, each great success will attrackt more carebears while your LP loses it's value)
- nothing stops the snowball effect
- non FW people are not affected by anything you do, besides marked prices for faction modules (there goes your meaningfull FW)
- the central issue is: its better for you to stay out of FW, when you live in this space, because neutrals will get all the currently not so nice benefits from system upgrades for free
Im also quite curious what Hans did or could have done over the last week's. It looks like he has to act as CCP's buffer at the moment and has no influence at all. Just to make it clear, i do not want to accuse him (i know there is a NDA), but dude start working! All this, im sure you will like it, they will adjuste it in the future, ... is complete bullshit. Do what you can now, people are sick of waiting for CCP to realise they did something wrong. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2343
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:28:00 -
[578] - Quote
Sui'Djin wrote: That's what I was thinking of. What is still missing is the aspect of 'diminishing return' mentioned by the Devs. Looks like this is not implemented yet, so the pendulum has no real momentum to swing back for the losing side.
Time will tell.
The thing that many players are struggling with is that they want to see specific mechanics that directly incentivize losing, thus giving them reason to want to stick around and fight from behind. CCP would much prefer to allow the sandbox to govern these incentives, allowing emergent market behavior to do the work rather than an arbitrary gimmick.
WeGÇÖve already seen how the factional LP stores vary in value depending on the easy of farming the LP with the current imbalances in level 4 missions. Factions like my own with incredibly simply mission running get farmed to death, and our LP store has one of the lowest isk / LP ratios around as a result. The markets will eventually shift according to the success of the faction, and a losing faction will soon see higher demand for its LP store offerings than ever before. The losing side will be locked out of being able to run missions, and must PvP their way back to earn that privilege. In the mean time, the losing side will be much more likely to hold onto their LP, further reducing the amount of that LP storeGÇÖs offerings that reach the market, and further driving up the price.
Eventually, SOMEONE will realize the value of these offerings and intervene, that is the nature of EVE players. An organized group can take major advantage of a losing faction by making a fast, hard, push to reclaim territory, reinforce systems, and cash out all the LP they earn along the way at once they achieve the cheapest possible rates. They can than quickly dump those items on the market while the prices for those items are still at their peak market value, making an obscene profit before they start falling again. This is just one of a thousand ways the system can be gamed and advantages can be gleaned by joining and assisting a losing faction to recover their space.
Who knows whether this is how it will play out or whether we'll see something completely different, the point is that rather than just handing players cookies for losing, or arbitrarily reducing the motivations to win in the first place, the developers are specifically keying these changes to the market, so that it becomes a true sandbox where we decide what the motivation is to fight back, not CCP.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
77
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:31:00 -
[579] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Bit like Chatgris boasting elsewhere "I went to fight eve-uni because they fight, dont blob and dont smack in local like Caldari". Then looking at his combat history it's full of "t3 alt boosted nano drake kills t1 fitted frigates" fights. So I quess that says enough about human nature.
lolwut? I don't think i ever said eve uni don't blob (unless they agreed to an arranged fight), they could summon a blob in about 45 seconds flat: I'd often fight 15:1 against them, which is why all I could usually kill was tackle unless it got down to 5:1 odds or less.
But they were a breath of fresh air when it came to willingness to fight and friendliness in local. I'm hoping to recruit a few of them.
And on the topic of not wanting to lose ships: Have you looked at my lossboard? I think I spent about 1.5B ISK suiciding ships into their blob in the space of a month.
Also, why the alt, did your main get banned from posting on the forums again? |
Amarrian Slavetrader
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:31:00 -
[580] - Quote
You guys are screwed. Technical evaluation.
|
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Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:36:00 -
[581] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: LOL!! My comment had nothing to do with the Gallente or Caldari specifically, I'm just saying that the very notion of a winning faction renting mission hub systems back to the loser for mission purposes is the kind of crazy gameplay possibilities that could emerge from the new system.
They would rent it to their own missioning alts in the other militia. That would be a crazy meta-gameplay possibility emerging from the new system. Too bad the mechanic you seemed to think was game-breaking would prevent it.
Wouldn't making militia stations open only to the side with sov make more sense, provide a unique reward for being in militia, and still have consequences when you lose it? Neutrals included. You'd still get spy alts to see who is in them, but they would be worth fighting over, especially the systems with no other militia stations. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Lil Nippy
State War Academy Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:41:00 -
[582] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Sui'Djin wrote: That's what I was thinking of. What is still missing is the aspect of 'diminishing return' mentioned by the Devs. Looks like this is not implemented yet, so the pendulum has no real momentum to swing back for the losing side.
Time will tell. The thing that many players are struggling with is that they want to see specific mechanics that directly incentivize losing, thus giving them reason to want to stick around and fight from behind. CCP would much prefer to allow the sandbox to govern these incentives, allowing emergent market behavior to do the work rather than an arbitrary gimmick. WeGÇÖve already seen how the factional LP stores vary in value depending on the easy of farming the LP with the current imbalances in level 4 missions. Factions like my own with incredibly simply mission running get farmed to death, and our LP store has one of the lowest isk / LP ratios around as a result. The markets will eventually shift according to the success of the faction, and a losing faction will soon see higher demand for its LP store offerings than ever before. The losing side will be locked out of being able to run missions, and must PvP their way back to earn that privilege. In the mean time, the losing side will be much more likely to hold onto their LP, further reducing the amount of that LP storeGÇÖs offerings that reach the market, and further driving up the price. Eventually, SOMEONE will realize the value of these offerings and intervene, that is the nature of EVE players. An organized group can take major advantage of a losing faction by making a fast, hard, push to reclaim territory, reinforce systems, and cash out all the LP they earn along the way at once they achieve the cheapest possible rates. They can than quickly dump those items on the market while the prices for those items are still at their peak market value, making an obscene profit before they start falling again. This is just one of a thousand ways the system can be gamed and advantages can be gleaned by joining and assisting a losing faction to recover their space. Who knows whether this is how it will play out or whether we'll see something completely different, the point is that rather than just handing players cookies for losing, or arbitrarily reducing the motivations to win in the first place, the developers are specifically keying these changes to the market, so that it becomes a true sandbox where we decide what the motivation is to fight back, not CCP.
QFT.
This thread is full of idiotic prophetic rambling from raging FW carebears. Thank you Hans for some logical reason.
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:43:00 -
[583] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: The thing that many players are struggling with is that they want to see specific mechanics that directly incentivize losing, thus giving them reason to want to stick around and fight from behind. CCP would much prefer to allow the sandbox to govern these incentives, allowing emergent market behavior to do the work rather than an arbitrary gimmick.
Why wouldn't a losing empire pay its pilots more LP for the scalps of the invaders?
Enemy lockout, tangible market rewards, and safer missioning are plenty motivation to keep pressing the advantage. Giving an LP modifier for enemy kills would encourage the underdog to keep fighting.
BTW, does the LP reward for warzone control also apply to kills?
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2343
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 15:53:00 -
[584] - Quote
Ahazu Sagam wrote:Im getting more and more to the point were i would actually prefer a delay of the FW "features". There are still so many bugs and missing features on SISI. They managed to implement consequences and visiability (UI guys did a great job here) but were is the reward and the better gameplay? Everything looks unfinished and in some parts even crude.
-
Im also quite curious what Hans did or could have done over the last week's. It looks like he has to act as CCP's buffer at the moment and has no influence at all. Just to make it clear, i do not want to accuse him (i know there is a NDA), but dude start working! All this, im sure you will like it, they will adjuste it in the future, ... is complete bullshit. Do what you can now, people are sick of waiting for CCP to realise they did something wrong.
You contradict yourself here so many times, I donGÇÖt know where to begin. Nothing stops the snowball effect? But you just described how the winning sides LP slowly becomes worthless, increasing the value of the losing teamGÇÖs LP. You seem to have a grasp on some levels of how powerful market forces will be, yet still claim itGÇÖs a system with no safeguards.
Also, I just described why a group would want to join the losing faction, because its possible to make incredible profits over the course of a campaign that assists a militia in making a major comeback. No need to go over that again.
As for the system upgrades, there will be more on the way and thereGÇÖs definitely items the CSM has already been pushing for that only didnGÇÖt make it into this release due to lack of time. Thankfully CCP will be working on this up to and including a Winter expansion with even more iterations. I donGÇÖt mind someone questioning what IGÇÖve been up to, though you are correct that much is covered by the NDA.
I can say that as a FW pilot, almost every single major complaint that the community has had as far as missing elements is being investigated, but deadlines are deadlines and this is only the first round. That is why many forum posters are panicking, and I personally seem a lot more relaxed and optimistic. CCP isnGÇÖt asking me to buffer them at all, itGÇÖs just completely useless for me to go around pitchforking on the forums for issues that I know are being worked on.
This obsession with getting it right the first time is misplaced; this is not the CCP of a year ago where we honestly wondered if theyGÇÖd ever look at Faction Warfare again. They are fully committed to following through with fixing the problems that emerge from this first pass, as well as adding more meaningful rewards , upgrades, and UI in subsequent releases. Have we forgotten that expansions come out in pieces? Inferno will be no different.
TL:DR GÇô GÇ£TheyGÇÖll adjust it in the futureGÇ¥ isnGÇÖt complete bullshit, itGÇÖs the truth. Everyone moaned and groaned with Crucible, too, claiming that it was bullshit that CCP fixed so few things. I told everyone to be patient and that with some hard work, weGÇÖll see a full expansion to Faction Warfare in the coming summer. I think my track record speaks for itself.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
77
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:07:00 -
[585] - Quote
Lil Nippy wrote:This thread is full of idiotic prophetic rambling from raging FW carebears. Thank you Hans for some logical reason.
Confirming that I'm a carebear.
Don't label your opposition just because they may not agree with you. Non-carebears might have ideas that don't coincide with yours. |
Nitalya
Bane Inc INQUISITION.
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:11:00 -
[586] - Quote
just a thought of the market effects of the new faction wide bonuse and penaltys....
so as it stands now you can get a navy apoc bpc for 250k lps on the live server on the test server due to the new tiered bonus/penalty thingy a navy apoc costs 400k LP, the market starves cause who is going to pay the extra lp then when and IF they price gets cheaper like lets say even back to normal the market is going to flood and it will crash cause everyone in the militia will cash in there lp at the same time and throw a major ammount of them up..
IMHO we are going to see the winning militias flooded withmission alts getting bonus to lp gain and cheaper stuff at the lp store. both bad when put togheter and the loosing side will just stop playing cause they cant support them selfts with isk cause there faction store is stupid overpriced cause we have no space. (personaly im fine have plenty of isk) but others will struggle
i would love to see ccp remove the penalty for loseing and just stick to rewarding the winning side. i would go as far to say ccp overthought this one with the new tier rewards and penaltys.
they are also promoting a sytem with NO reward for defencive plex that does notheing to promote running defence plex. example being amarr attack auga, it would be bettter for minmitar to let them take it and then plex it back themselfs cause they are rewarded to taking the system just not for defending it i would like to see cccp give half the LP reward for defence plex
other than those two game breaking fetures in my opinion ccp has done a great job on this expansion and im looking forward to seeing it go live i just hope they notice that some of these changes arent as well thought out as they originaly thought
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2344
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:11:00 -
[587] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote: Why wouldn't a losing empire pay its pilots more LP for the scalps of the invaders? Giving an LP modifier for enemy kills would encourage the underdog to keep fighting.
This is actually something several of us on the CSM asked CCP for, and remember nothing is off the table for future iterations on the system. WeGÇÖre just at the GÇ£put your pencils downGÇ¥ moment here and players will just have to test the set of iterations that there was time to implement. If more perks for the losing side proves to be necessary to motivate activity levels, this would be a great mechanic to look at. I want my enemies to fight back as much as the next guy, rest assured I wonGÇÖt be satisfied till there are sufficient measures in place to create constant conflict.
Dirk Smacker wrote:Enemy lockout, tangible market rewards, and safer missioning are plenty motivation to keep pressing the advantage.
IGÇÖm sorry, but I completely disagree on handing a losing faction safe missioning. You seem to have missed one of the communityGÇÖs major gripes about the Faction Warfare system, that mission farming (at least until the NPCGÇÖs get balanced) takes pilots away from the PvP which is supposed to be the primary appeal. I absolutely LOVE that in the current set of mechanics, PvP-free mission running is a privilege, not a right.
Otherwise, weGÇÖd see pilots enlist in the losing faction just to continue farming for the items that are lucrative on the market, avoiding pew pew just like happens today. This way, if someone looking at the markets decides to enlist in the losing faction to grind for LP, they have to grind it through PvP methods first (player kills and plexing). This is a MAJOR improvement and solves a problem that Faction Warfare pilots have been complaining about for quite some time.
Dirk Smacker wrote:BTW, does the LP reward for warzone control also apply to kills?
Yes, it does.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Nitalya
Bane Inc INQUISITION.
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:14:00 -
[588] - Quote
just a thought.. most militias have alot of -10 players due to ccps falure to fix neutral remote reps and all the other stupid things that cause fleets to lose sec... shouldnt there be a set capitol system in losec that cant be captured so those players are not totaly screwed if there miltia does happen to lose all its space.
|
Nitalya
Bane Inc INQUISITION.
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:19:00 -
[589] - Quote
[/quote]
Otherwise, weGÇÖd see pilots enlist in the losing faction just to continue farming for the items that are lucrative on the market, avoiding pew pew just like happens today. This way, if someone looking at the markets decides to enlist in the losing faction to grind for LP, they have to grind it through PvP methods first (player kills and plexing). This is a MAJOR improvement and solves a problem that Faction Warfare pilots have been complaining about for quite some time.
[/quote]
i dont see this happening as the LP cost of them will be silly due to ccp implementing penalties to the loseing faction in the form of 4x the lp cost for items. this idea of theres is going to be a game breaker and will cause more people to leave miltias and FW than it will bring in...( i still support bonuses to lp gain for the winning faction BTW) |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:21:00 -
[590] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Otherwise, weGÇÖd see pilots enlist in the losing faction just to continue farming for the items that are lucrative on the market, avoiding pew pew just like happens today. This way, if someone looking at the markets decides to enlist in the losing faction to grind for LP, they have to grind it through PvP methods first (player kills and plexing). This is a MAJOR improvement and solves a problem that Faction Warfare pilots have been complaining about for quite some time.
Why would someone not just farm L4 missions in hi sec and pay the same price for the faction ships as the losing side?
Correct me if wrong, but aren't the prices on SiSi reset to what the npc corp LP stores offer and the militias earn their way back to what we have now?
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Yes, it does.
Yikes. How do you not see snowball effect-coming?
Wouldn't some really good, small PvP corps be more inclined to join the winning side for the cheaper ships in which they will fly themselves? I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:25:00 -
[591] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: IGÇÖm sorry, but I completely disagree on handing a losing faction safe missioning. You seem to have missed one of the communityGÇÖs major gripes about the Faction Warfare system, that mission farming (at least until the NPCGÇÖs get balanced) takes pilots away from the PvP which is supposed to be the primary appeal. I absolutely LOVE that in the current set of mechanics, PvP-free mission running is a privilege, not a right.
You seemed to have misread my post or I seemed to have mistyped it. The safer mission obviously goes to those who have locked out the enemy from those systems. I was saying that it is indeed a motivating factor, but you need give the losing side some motivation to fight back, especially when outnumbered and no chance of taking a system back. Hence, why I think giving more LP to the winning side from PvP kills is an awful mistake. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2345
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:27:00 -
[592] - Quote
Nitalya wrote:just a thought.. most militias have alot of -10 players due to ccps falure to fix neutral remote reps and all the other stupid things that cause fleets to lose sec
This is obviously something we're looking into, you're talking to a Logistics pilot here. My security status drops are almost exclusively because of repairing miltia members.
Nitalya wrote:... shouldnt there be a set capitol system in losec that cant be captured so those players are not totaly screwed if there miltia does happen to lose all its space.
There already exists many systems throughout low sec unaffected by the war, which therefore provide a base of operations that cannot be taken away. For example, some of the Amarr militia have already retreated to Egghelende, which connects to the Hed constellation via Siseide and allows them to base a few jumps away from Minmatar sovereign space without ever suffering lockout. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2345
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:38:00 -
[593] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote: You seemed to have misread my post or I seemed to have mistyped it. The safer mission obviously goes to those who have locked out the enemy from those systems. I was saying that is is indeed a motivating factor, but you need give the losing side some motivation to fight back, especially when outnumbered and no chance of taking a system back. Hence, why I think giving more LP to the winning side from PvP kills is an awful mistake.
Fair enough, IGÇÖm glad we agree about the missions!
And who knows, you might be right and it might be an awful mistake. It also might not be. Unfortunately my psychic powers are not quite as developed as many who are posting in the thread, leaving me unable to predict the future and declare that I know exactly how this will all turn out.
Until we get a chance to play it for a month at least and obtain *any* data at all to support all the claims that are flying around the forums, I donGÇÖt see much point in trying to pretend weGÇÖve figured out the precise trajectory of an emergent system with dozens of new variables. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2345
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 16:47:00 -
[594] - Quote
Nitalya wrote: i dont see this happening as the LP cost of them will be silly due to ccp implementing penalties to the loseing faction in the form of 4x the lp cost for items. this idea of theres is going to be a game breaker and will cause more people to leave miltias and FW than it will bring in...( i still support bonuses to lp gain for the winning faction BTW)
Remember no one is forcing anyone to cash their LP out at the 4x price level, that is purely a player choice. It's a sandbox - some will cash out anyways, either selling items on the market at absurd prices or just eating potential profits they could have gained had they been patient and worked hard to bring prices down for their faction by reclaiming space..
Wise players will hang on to their LP rewards as long as possible, and make an effort to help their faction recover. Once the prices fall, all of the accumulated LP can than be cashed out.
It's like the stock market, the value of LP will not be fixed, and will in fact vary wildly depending on who's winning and who's losing. There is no reason to feel that players are being forced into paying the high LP store prices when they have the option to save, fight back, and cash them out when their currency stretches the farthest.
Dirk Smacker wrote:Why would someone not just farm L4 missions in hi sec and pay the same price for the faction ships as the losing side?
Because those high sec Level 4 LP's are a fixed value, and can never be made MORE valuable through a coordinated PvP campaign. LP earned in FW, however, can buy a substantially greater number of items if you work with your faction to drive the LP store cost back down and cash them out at that point in time. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
199
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:21:00 -
[595] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote: Wouldn't some really good, small PvP corps be more inclined to join the winning side for the cheaper ships in which they will fly themselves?
Our Exeqeror Navy Issues will blot out the sun!
|
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
21
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:27:00 -
[596] - Quote
Quote:The thing that many players are struggling with is that they want to see specific mechanics that directly incentivize losing, thus giving them reason to want to stick around and fight from behind. CCP would much prefer to allow the sandbox to govern these incentives, allowing emergent market behavior to do the work rather than an arbitrary gimmick
So they/you hope that market pvp with one item will be enaugh to keep the force balanced. I know there is more than one unique item in the milita LP store, but who uses FW imps and i do not see so many navy augorer's(sythe's). The item of choice is here the navy tier 1 BS (geddon/phoon) and this is no bulk commodity. Even when we are optimistic and say the navy cruiser will be a factor too, who in hell would buy an overpriced faction BS/cruiser if he can get a pirate ship for almost the same price? The rest of the items can be gained from other LP stores for 25% of the LP and ISK costs, so no real FW based marked pvp with them.
Quote:CCP isnGÇÖt asking me to buffer them at all, itGÇÖs just completely useless for me to go around pitchforking on the forums for issues that I know are being worked on.
Then go to the CSM forum and create a topic, post the things there that you adressed to the dev's, lock the topic and keep it on the front page. This isnt that hard and people would see that you are actually working on stuff and they wouldnt spam the forum continuously. E.g. i still dont know if CCP has realised that i can dock in enemy high while they denie docking in low |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
199
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:32:00 -
[597] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Because those high sec Level 4 LP's are a fixed value, and can never be made MORE valuable through a coordinated PvP campaign. LP earned in FW, however, can buy a substantially greater number of items if you work with your faction to drive the LP store cost back down and cash them out at that point in time.
I predict fail. There will have to be a substantial infusion of players into the losing side for them to "quickly make headway". First, it'll be very difficult to take systems that are more than one jump from a basing system due to plexing mechanics. Second, they won't have the isk income to compete.
MIght lead to more fights for a while, but the side that is down will soon lose to attrition. If this gets to a 4: 1/4 ratio, then Intaki L4 agent = 1.5*16* High Sec Caldari Agent in LP and isk payout. Coordinate all you want, winning side has the means to leroy 24 times as many ships (in value) into the battle as losing side does.
My guess is that the Gallente/Caldari front settles on a 2: 1/2 ratio in which case the difference in payouts will be a factor of five or more. Good luck Bolster! |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2346
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 17:47:00 -
[598] - Quote
Cross-posting a great set of answers from the developers about the upcoming changes, and what lies beyond the May 22 release:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1278754#post1278754 Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 18:45:00 -
[599] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:You guys are screwed. Technical evaluation. :sadness: because it is true |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 19:14:00 -
[600] - Quote
chatgris wrote:But they were clueless enough to get ganked by boosted nano-drake rather than Caldari who already know my tricks and dont waste ships stupidly so the long-haired hippie from Nennamaila could feel good about himself
Fixed that for you.
|
|
Almity
Imperial Outlaws
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 21:32:00 -
[601] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Nitalya wrote:just a thought.. most militias have alot of -10 players due to ccps falure to fix neutral remote reps and all the other stupid things that cause fleets to lose sec This is obviously something we're looking into, you're talking to a Logistics pilot here. My security status drops are almost exclusively because of repairing miltia members. Nitalya wrote:... shouldnt there be a set capitol system in losec that cant be captured so those players are not totaly screwed if there miltia does happen to lose all its space.
There already exists many systems throughout low sec unaffected by the war, which therefore provide a base of operations that cannot be taken away. For example, some of the Amarr militia have already retreated to Egghelende, which connects to the Hed constellation via Siseide and allows them to base a few jumps away from Minmatar sovereign space without ever suffering lockout.
First, there was no retreat. We saw the changes our minmatar csm overlord was pushing for and we decided we didn't want to risk being locked out of our stuff. Now with the increase in flip times its not such a worry.
Second, Egg is closer to the Minmatar bases than our old base. If anything we advanced! Use a little better judgement in your words Hans.
Third, and final, I hoped when I voted for you I was voting for a FW csm voice. Now Im sure I voted for a Minmatar CSM. You can say all you want about how you pushed for fair changes but dev blogs and patch notes say so much more than you. Im really sorry I wasted my vote this year. Next year I won't make the same mistake. |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
234
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 22:38:00 -
[602] - Quote
Almity wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Nitalya wrote:just a thought.. most militias have alot of -10 players due to ccps falure to fix neutral remote reps and all the other stupid things that cause fleets to lose sec This is obviously something we're looking into, you're talking to a Logistics pilot here. My security status drops are almost exclusively because of repairing miltia members. Nitalya wrote:... shouldnt there be a set capitol system in losec that cant be captured so those players are not totaly screwed if there miltia does happen to lose all its space.
There already exists many systems throughout low sec unaffected by the war, which therefore provide a base of operations that cannot be taken away. For example, some of the Amarr militia have already retreated to Egghelende, which connects to the Hed constellation via Siseide and allows them to base a few jumps away from Minmatar sovereign space without ever suffering lockout. First, there was no retreat. We saw the changes our minmatar csm overlord was pushing for and we decided we didn't want to risk being locked out of our stuff. Now with the increase in flip times its not such a worry. Second, Egg is closer to the Minmatar bases than our old base. If anything we advanced! Use a little better judgement in your words Hans. Third, and final, I hoped when I voted for you I was voting for a FW csm voice. Now Im sure I voted for a Minmatar CSM. You can say all you want about how you pushed for fair changes but dev blogs and patch notes say so much more than you. Im really sorry I wasted my vote this year. Next year I won't make the same mistake.
Wow.
You do realize Hans was pro-reset, despite all of us nasty Minmatar telling him it was stupid and against all precedents CCP had set? You do realize Hans doesn't support the full station lock-out? You do realize Hans isn't the puppet-master at CCP HQ? He can only do so much, haha.
Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
407
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 23:14:00 -
[603] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:Almity wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Nitalya wrote:just a thought.. most militias have alot of -10 players due to ccps falure to fix neutral remote reps and all the other stupid things that cause fleets to lose sec This is obviously something we're looking into, you're talking to a Logistics pilot here. My security status drops are almost exclusively because of repairing miltia members. Nitalya wrote:... shouldnt there be a set capitol system in losec that cant be captured so those players are not totaly screwed if there miltia does happen to lose all its space.
There already exists many systems throughout low sec unaffected by the war, which therefore provide a base of operations that cannot be taken away. For example, some of the Amarr militia have already retreated to Egghelende, which connects to the Hed constellation via Siseide and allows them to base a few jumps away from Minmatar sovereign space without ever suffering lockout. First, there was no retreat. We saw the changes our minmatar csm overlord was pushing for and we decided we didn't want to risk being locked out of our stuff. Now with the increase in flip times its not such a worry. Second, Egg is closer to the Minmatar bases than our old base. If anything we advanced! Use a little better judgement in your words Hans. Third, and final, I hoped when I voted for you I was voting for a FW csm voice. Now Im sure I voted for a Minmatar CSM. You can say all you want about how you pushed for fair changes but dev blogs and patch notes say so much more than you. Im really sorry I wasted my vote this year. Next year I won't make the same mistake. Wow. You do realize Hans was pro-reset, despite all of us nasty Minmatar telling him it was stupid and against all precedents CCP had set? You do realize Hans doesn't support the full station lock-out? You do realize Hans isn't the puppet-master at CCP HQ? He can only do so much, haha.
Hans is now saying station lockouts are tolerable.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
234
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 01:46:00 -
[604] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
Hans is now saying station lockouts are tolerable.
edit: BTW I do not think hans was biased to minmatar. I just think he has been biased toward ccps and csm 6s plans to make this null sec light. Specifically his advocating Station lockouts and long flip times.
Well, he is definitely pro-long flip times. A lot of people are. It makes sense, at least with the hefty penalty of station lockouts. To my understanding, he was trying to get CCP to reconsider the station lockout but they were dead set on it.
I still think (and a lot of people in Minmatar) that the full lockout is going to be super detrimental to the warzone. I'm personally in favor of denial of station services, but hopefully CCP will be able to get a lot of feedback from the Tranq. server and maybe reconsider the full lockout once it goes live. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Honor Accelerando
One Point 0
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 01:52:00 -
[605] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:Cearain wrote:
Hans is now saying station lockouts are tolerable.
edit: BTW I do not think hans was biased to minmatar. I just think he has been biased toward ccps and csm 6s plans to make this null sec light. Specifically his advocating Station lockouts and long flip times.
Well, he is definitely pro-long flip times. A lot of people are. It makes sense, at least with the hefty penalty of station lockouts. To my understanding, he was trying to get CCP to reconsider the station lockout but they were dead set on it. I still think (and a lot of people in Minmatar) that the full lockout is going to be super detrimental to the warzone. I'm personally in favor of denial of station services, but hopefully CCP will be able to get a lot of feedback from the Tranq. server and maybe reconsider the full lockout once it goes live.
Jesus Vordak, it's embarrassing to see you working as Hans' mouth piece like his little bit c h. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
407
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 01:58:00 -
[606] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:Cearain wrote:
Hans is now saying station lockouts are tolerable.
edit: BTW I do not think hans was biased to minmatar. I just think he has been biased toward ccps and csm 6s plans to make this null sec light. Specifically his advocating Station lockouts and long flip times.
Well, he is definitely pro-long flip times. A lot of people are. It makes sense, at least with the hefty penalty of station lockouts. To my understanding, he was trying to get CCP to reconsider the station lockout but they were dead set on it. I still think (and a lot of people in Minmatar) that the full lockout is going to be super detrimental to the warzone. I'm personally in favor of denial of station services, but hopefully CCP will be able to get a lot of feedback from the Tranq. server and maybe reconsider the full lockout once it goes live.
Personally I am not in favor of anything that prevents the losing side from putting up a fight. Including station services. Gate fire from stations is fine because that doesn't effect fighting in plexes.
Long flip times just favor the side that can get a blob. Shorter flip times would favor hit and run small gangs. The shorter flip times also brought about more pvp in and around plexes.
Anyway I wrote a seperate thread on this issue with a more detailed analysis of the pros and cons.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
407
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 02:15:00 -
[607] - Quote
Honor Accelerando wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:Cearain wrote:
Hans is now saying station lockouts are tolerable.
edit: BTW I do not think hans was biased to minmatar. I just think he has been biased toward ccps and csm 6s plans to make this null sec light. Specifically his advocating Station lockouts and long flip times.
Well, he is definitely pro-long flip times. A lot of people are. It makes sense, at least with the hefty penalty of station lockouts. To my understanding, he was trying to get CCP to reconsider the station lockout but they were dead set on it. I still think (and a lot of people in Minmatar) that the full lockout is going to be super detrimental to the warzone. I'm personally in favor of denial of station services, but hopefully CCP will be able to get a lot of feedback from the Tranq. server and maybe reconsider the full lockout once it goes live. Jesus Vordak, it's embarrassing to see you working as Hans' mouth piece like his little bit c h.
I think this comment is pretty ridiculous. Although I disagree with hans on the timer issue I am sure he did hear a request for longer timers from many pilots in faction war. He was just doing his job in representing them. Its just that this was a knee jerk reaction instead of something thought through.
Hans is working hard to represent faction war and low sec pilots who want frequent pvp. I am convinced of that. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
234
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 04:02:00 -
[608] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:Cearain wrote:
Hans is now saying station lockouts are tolerable.
edit: BTW I do not think hans was biased to minmatar. I just think he has been biased toward ccps and csm 6s plans to make this null sec light. Specifically his advocating Station lockouts and long flip times.
Well, he is definitely pro-long flip times. A lot of people are. It makes sense, at least with the hefty penalty of station lockouts. To my understanding, he was trying to get CCP to reconsider the station lockout but they were dead set on it. I still think (and a lot of people in Minmatar) that the full lockout is going to be super detrimental to the warzone. I'm personally in favor of denial of station services, but hopefully CCP will be able to get a lot of feedback from the Tranq. server and maybe reconsider the full lockout once it goes live. Personally I am not in favor of anything that prevents the losing side from putting up a fight. Including station services. Gate fire from stations is fine because that doesn't effect fighting in plexes. Long flip times just favor the side that can get a blob. Shorter flip times would favor hit and run small gangs. The shorter flip times also brought about more pvp in and around plexes. Anyway I wrote a seperate thread on this issue with a more detailed analysis of the pros and cons.
Wouldn't shorter flip times mean that neither of the factions would base in the warzone? Both sides would be at an immense risk to having their system flipped while they slept. I see this as discouraging any kind of lowsec-living lifestyle. At least with the longer, drawn out battles for a system you'd be getting a) a chance to fight for your system without having to set alarms or not sleep and b) you'd have a lot more fighting happening in plex every day as each side tries to 1up the other on system capturing/defending progress.
@San Severina aka Honor Accelerando: why are you still mad that Hans (and the rest of AUTOZ) kicked (and don't like) Missy Lorelai because he a) stole from us and b) tried to blackmail us?
Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 04:34:00 -
[609] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:You do realize Hans was pro-reset ... Reset is irrelevant, he should have dug his heels in when they said they wanted to implement draconian consequences without first addressing the damn balance .. since he didn't he must have an agenda as of yet undisclosed.
Always get this warm and fuzzy feeling (and a small psychotic tick) when a person I supported/voted/promoted turns out to be something entirely different
|
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
234
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 04:43:00 -
[610] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:You do realize Hans was pro-reset ... Reset is irrelevant, he should have dug his heels in when they said they wanted to implement draconian consequences without first addressing the damn balance .. since he didn't he must have an agenda as of yet undisclosed. Always get this warm and fuzzy feeling (and a small psychotic tick) when a person I supported/voted/promoted turns out to be something entirely different
... You are insane. /discussion Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
|
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 07:55:00 -
[611] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Because those high sec Level 4 LP's are a fixed value, and can never be made MORE valuable through a coordinated PvP campaign. LP earned in FW, however, can buy a substantially greater number of items if you work with your faction to drive the LP store cost back down and cash them out at that point in time.
I predict fail. There will have to be a substantial infusion of players into the losing side for them to "quickly make headway". First, it'll be very difficult to take systems that are more than one jump from a basing system due to plexing mechanics (reshipping issues due to station lockout, takes at least 40 hours to flip undefended system). Second, they won't have the isk income to compete. While a counterattack mIght lead to more fights for a while, the side that is down will soon lose to attrition. If this gets to a 4: 1/4 ratio, then Intaki L4 agent = 1.5*16* High Sec Caldari Agent in LP and isk payout. Coordinate all you want, winning side has the means to leroy 24 times as many ships (in value) into the battle as losing side does. (The side leroying 24 times as many ships in value is going to win more than lose, btw). My guess is that the Gallente/Caldari front settles on a 2: 1/2 ratio in which case the difference in payouts will be a factor of five or more. Good luck Bolster! Go ahead and respond or not. I could be wrong, let new system play out, yada yada yada.....
unfortunately u r right ... good thing is I allways had other sources of isk too
the good thing is that pvp active corps like IBS will get decent amount of lps from kills (so far calculated it can counter the loss on fw missions + addition on plexing), but still will be in bitchy situation. 2 days ago we had decent fights in raka plexes while we were able to quickly reship when we lost the first round (my fcing fault ) and win at the end. In case I will not have a chance to reship >>> no fight at all, because I will not even try in the first round. however all this leads to more blobs, because blob (preferably nano alfa blobs) will protect u and u can quickly gank targets and gtfo in case jesus counter blob arrived (and u turn on ur batphone and ask judas blob to counter jesus blob, while the jesus blob FC will tun on his bathone and ... after few rounds of holly batman server will crash and nobody will play FW because fights for plexes will be irelevant). and yeah ... if i will be on next fanfest I want fair boxing fight with that CCP idiot who came with this ideas. if he would be interested we can go kick box. IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
408
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 14:06:00 -
[612] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:Cearain wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:Cearain wrote:
Hans is now saying station lockouts are tolerable.
edit: BTW I do not think hans was biased to minmatar. I just think he has been biased toward ccps and csm 6s plans to make this null sec light. Specifically his advocating Station lockouts and long flip times.
Well, he is definitely pro-long flip times. A lot of people are. It makes sense, at least with the hefty penalty of station lockouts. To my understanding, he was trying to get CCP to reconsider the station lockout but they were dead set on it. I still think (and a lot of people in Minmatar) that the full lockout is going to be super detrimental to the warzone. I'm personally in favor of denial of station services, but hopefully CCP will be able to get a lot of feedback from the Tranq. server and maybe reconsider the full lockout once it goes live. Personally I am not in favor of anything that prevents the losing side from putting up a fight. Including station services. Gate fire from stations is fine because that doesn't effect fighting in plexes. Long flip times just favor the side that can get a blob. Shorter flip times would favor hit and run small gangs. The shorter flip times also brought about more pvp in and around plexes. Anyway I wrote a seperate thread on this issue with a more detailed analysis of the pros and cons. Wouldn't shorter flip times mean that neither of the factions would base in the warzone?
Its the opposite. I would leave my several plexing ships in the war zone if I knew I would have some ability to flip the system and unlock them should the system get flipped when I sleep.
If I knew that if the minmatar completely ignored the plexing for and hour I could then flip the system in that time I wouldn't mind so much having ships locked out. More importantly it would be better if the minmatar reacted within the hour but didn't have time to get their blob together so we might have some decent fights as pilots come rolling in.
Shorter flip times means I would know with a carefully planned attack that I could unlcock them again despite being outnumbered overall. In other words I would feel I have some control over my own fortunes.
Now I have no control.
Vordak Kallager wrote: Both sides would be at an immense risk to having their system flipped while they slept. I see this as discouraging any kind of lowsec-living lifestyle. At least with the longer, drawn out battles for a system you'd be getting a) a chance to fight for your system without having to set alarms or not sleep and b) you'd have a lot more fighting happening in plex every day as each side tries to 1up the other on system capturing/defending progress.
I am not some noob that thinks just because I sign in I will be able to turn the tides on my own. I have been in arzad and my being there doesn't matter. If I run a plex they will show up with 3 different ships to counter my ship. And they weren't noobs that I could fight with those odds. Even if I could manage some sort of surprise atttack it would only work for an hour or 2 at best before the minmatar blob would come. Its not going to work for seven hours let alone forty!
When rkk came and fought for the minmatar there was nothing amarr could really do to prevent them from taking systems - if they chose to do that. (luckilly it didn't matter at the time so they didn't take them all) If a null sec alliance decides for whatever reason to start taking systems they will and the other side won't be able to do anything to stop them in this system with long timers. Why? Because this long flip time system favors the side that can keep the biggest blob focused on a grind the longest. It has nothing to do with small scale pvp. This is null sec lite.
You say longer flip times will lead to longer drawn out battles. No they won't. The battlles won't be any longer than if the flip time was shorter. The button orbitting will be longer and more drawn out. But there will be much less battling per plex.
You assume everyone is going to sign in within 24 hours or something. I may not sign in to protect my space in a 3 or 4 days. Given my family life that is not likely to change. So the idea that I can have "an opportunity to fight for my space" is just foolish and assumes everyone can sign in every 24 hours.
I may not be able to sign in often but it would be nice if I felt I could accomplish something in that time. But now I know I can't whatever side has the bigger blob will just undue whatever I can accomplish.
So why not make sure my side has the bigger blob? Well I am a casual player of this game. I play the game to be a combat pilot not to be in the airforce with an office job as a recruiter.
Maybe those in the big blob mentality will say "I don't want some small group to come and be able to flip a system unless I have several hours to get my big ass fleet ready and drive them off."
I can just say well since the flip times are short for me, they are short for you too. It won't take so long for you to flip it back with your blob so its no big deal. In the mean time people will be having allot more fights when there some sense of urgency. Having a system where one side does not even need to react in the slightest way for 40 hours creates no urgency. Hence no one will come into that system to try to slow down the plexing before they show up with their overwelming force.
Seriously I just want people to think about this issue. Rather than having these posts spread out all over the forums I would prefer that the reasons people give for longer or shorter flip times be posted in the thread I made for that purpose. I realize many people don't think this is a big deal but I really think it is. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 17:34:00 -
[613] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:... You are insane. /discussion Insane .. awakened ..potato-tomato.
Just another politician wannabe corrupted by the system into which he is thrust .. had expected him to last for more than few weeks though, but that's the Matar for you
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
202
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:37:00 -
[614] - Quote
Nah, I think insane is about right. There's nothing any CSM member can do to force CCP to do or not do if they set their mind on it. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
89
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:41:00 -
[615] - Quote
Heh. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
414
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 18:51:00 -
[616] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Because those high sec Level 4 LP's are a fixed value, and can never be made MORE valuable through a coordinated PvP campaign. LP earned in FW, however, can buy a substantially greater number of items if you work with your faction to drive the LP store cost back down and cash them out at that point in time.
I predict fail. There will have to be a substantial infusion of players into the losing side for them to "quickly make headway". First, it'll be very difficult to take systems that are more than one jump from a basing system due to plexing mechanics (reshipping issues due to station lockout, takes at least 40 hours to flip undefended system). Second, they won't have the isk income to compete. While a counterattack mIght lead to more fights for a while, the side that is down will soon lose to attrition. If this gets to a 4: 1/4 ratio, then Intaki L4 agent = 1.5*16* High Sec Caldari Agent in LP and isk payout. Coordinate all you want, winning side has the means to leroy 24 times as many ships (in value) into the battle as losing side does. (The side leroying 24 times as many ships in value is going to win more than lose, btw). My guess is that the Gallente/Caldari front settles on a 2: 1/2 ratio in which case the difference in payouts will be a factor of five or more. Good luck Bolster! Go ahead and respond or not. I could be wrong, let new system play out, yada yada yada.....
After the winners and losers shake out a bit ccp is asking people this question: Do you want more money or less money?
Am I suppose to be excited to find out how players will answer this question?
The only thing that needs to play out is which side is going to be the winning side or whether some large alliance, will show how great they are, and decide to grind a losing faction to a winning one so they can profit. The mechanics are very well suited for a large null sec alliance to come and do just that. They can easilly quell any opposition just like in sov null sec.
But for each individual player entering faction war the question will be do you want more money or less. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:17:00 -
[617] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:unfortunately u r right ... good thing is I allways had other sources of isk too the good thing is that pvp active corps like IBS will get decent amount of lps from kills (so far calculated it can counter the loss on fw missions + addition on plexing), but still will be in bitchy situation. 2 days ago we had decent fights in raka plexes while we were able to quickly reship when we lost the first round (my fcing fault ) and win at the end. In case I will not have a chance to reship >>> no fight at all, because I will not even try in the first round. however all this leads to more blobs, because blob (preferably nano alfa blobs) will protect u and u can quickly gank targets and gtfo in case jesus counter blob arrived (and u turn on ur batphone and ask judas blob to counter jesus blob, while the jesus blob FC will tun on his bathone and ... after few rounds of holly batman server will crash and nobody will play FW because fights for plexes will be irelevant). and yeah ... if i will be on next fanfest I want fair boxing fight with that CCP idiot who came with this ideas. if he would be interested we can go kick box.
The problem isn't the amount of LP you'll get, the problem will be the cost in the LP store to buy things with that LP if your side is losing.
It is true that over time, the losing sides items will become more expensive and the winning sides items less expensive due to supply pressure which will balance ISK/hr a little. However, the winning side should have it easier because as price lowers, aggregate demand increases and vice-versa. |
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
251
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:22:00 -
[618] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
The only thing that needs to play out is which side is going to be the winning side or whether some large alliance, will show how great they are, and decide to grind a losing faction to a winning one so they can profit. The mechanics are very well suited for a large null sec alliance to come and do just that. They can easilly quell any opposition just like in sov null sec.
.
Fearmongering at its best. Reminds me of all the fearmongering people did when CCP introduced Alliances and said that various nullsec alliances would come and ruin the FW sandbox. Puhleeez....
C'est La Eve :) Gallente Militia -áPVP Corp. Selective recruitment open. http://iamsheriff.com/eagle.html |
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
251
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:33:00 -
[619] - Quote
And btw Cearain- If you really want to fear monger, do it like this;
There's been secret conversations that the Minmatar will bring down the Gallente and help capture the remaining few systems that the Amarr have thus killing off the Amarr.
:) C'est La Eve :) Gallente Militia -áPVP Corp. Selective recruitment open. http://iamsheriff.com/eagle.html |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
416
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:53:00 -
[620] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:Cearain wrote:
The only thing that needs to play out is which side is going to be the winning side or whether some large alliance, will show how great they are, and decide to grind a losing faction to a winning one so they can profit. The mechanics are very well suited for a large null sec alliance to come and do just that. They can easilly quell any opposition just like in sov null sec.
.
Fearmongering at its best. Reminds me of all the fearmongering people did when CCP introduced Alliances and said that various nullsec alliances would come and ruin the FW sandbox. Puhleeez....
I am not afraid of this happening at all. I like faction war and low sec to remain in a sandbox, and generally I am against things like not allowing supercaps in low sec.
I am just pointing out the proposed mechanics make it easier for a null sec alliance to win this war. I still don't think the benefits are great enough for a null sec alliance to really focus in and do that for any reason other than to just "show how great they are and make some profits." But some alliances will do things, like burn jita, that aren't economic in the short term for publicity reasons that may pay off in the longer term.
Do you think if a large alliance decided to put all their effort into winning an inferno style faction war they wouldn't succeed? Do you think their methods would be much different than the current method of having blobs go grinding one system after another?
What would your strategies be? I can tell you if the flip times were much shorter and I was allowed to dock in the faction war zone I would love to have some large alliance come to fight. Now I wouldn't win, but I would keep fighting and have a great time. So would allot of small gang pvpers. But with the long flip times and no docking rules inferno brings, resistance would be futile. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 19:58:00 -
[621] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:And btw Cearain- If you really want to fear monger, do it like this;
There's been secret conversations that the Minmatar will bring down the Gallente and help capture the remaining few systems that the Amarr have thus killing off the Amarr.
:)
WHY ARE YOU LEAKING OUR SUPER SEKRET INTEL!?!?!?111eleven |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2353
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 20:12:00 -
[622] - Quote
chatgris wrote: WHY ARE YOU LEAKING OUR SUPER SEKRET INTEL!?!?!?111eleven
It's ok, I also leaked the location of our secret bases in my latest blog post. No hiding now!! Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
416
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 20:20:00 -
[623] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:And btw Cearain- If you really want to fear monger, do it like this;
There's been secret conversations that the Minmatar will bring down the Gallente and help capture the remaining few systems that the Amarr have thus killing off the Amarr.
:)
I would fear the minmatar serving up the gallente, as much as I would fear them serving up a platter of cream puffs.
But all this talk makes me hungry. Excuse me while I have my minmatar help serve me up a sandwich.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
202
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 22:09:00 -
[624] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
The only thing that needs to play out is which side is going to be the winning side or whether some large alliance, will show how great they are, and decide to grind a losing faction to a winning one so they can profit. .
They won't have the standings to pull it off. But let 'em come. Moar fun. |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
235
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 22:24:00 -
[625] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:
The only thing that needs to play out is which side is going to be the winning side or whether some large alliance, will show how great they are, and decide to grind a losing faction to a winning one so they can profit. .
They won't have the standings to pull it off. But let 'em come. Moar fun.
The most that might happen is some 0.0 entity might come into the warzone and lock it down, but I don't see any major sov-holder ever joining FW due to the aforementioned problem of standings. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 22:52:00 -
[626] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:
The only thing that needs to play out is which side is going to be the winning side or whether some large alliance, will show how great they are, and decide to grind a losing faction to a winning one so they can profit. .
They won't have the standings to pull it off. But let 'em come. Moar fun.
I wouldn't be so sure... you only need a 0.5 standing, and caldari (especially with the patch that added more caldari agents to spread mission runners out) is a very popular choice for pve with the best agents, close proximity to Jita etc...
EDIT: I don't think any large nullsec entity would bother, but I don't think that the standings for some popular pve factions would be a surefire lock against them. |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
751
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 00:19:00 -
[627] - Quote
When the fun created by the NEW SHINY stuff in the expansions ends after a month we will be stuck with how bad this is it will be too late.
Obvious problems being if one faction dominates a zone.
FW is not like 0.0 its full of casual or semi casual players.
Calling it now people will realize how dumb it all was a few months from now. Even those talking about how great the fighting is right now. That wont last people.
No one is looking at the longview on this. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
416
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 01:25:00 -
[628] - Quote
Reikoku joined faction war for Minmatar.
If I had to guess whether some major null sec force will join faction war in the next year I would bet one will. By "major force" I just mean one that will single handedly change the course of the war.
I do think the least likely faction that they would join will be gallente. Just because it seems allot of high sec missions always went against gallente and it would be hard to get the standing and because it would limit access to jita. Sorry Gallente.
But I do anticipate something like a Reikoku coming in to a faction. Whether they will be able to roll over everyone or whether they will just end up in allot of good fights depends on what the mechanics of faction war are like at the time. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
175
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 06:10:00 -
[629] - Quote
Reikoku aren't going trough their best times, same as Dark Rising which joined Gallente. Unless someone like Solar, -A-, PL, NCdot or others of that caliber join, FW can handle it easly. Hell, we scored the ocasional gank or win in subcaps even against some of those entities when we brought our A game.
More PVP (even against larger entitiies) won't be what kills FW, forced PVE will accomplish that. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
436
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 06:55:00 -
[630] - Quote
Quote:Lock out Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly Likes received: 175
I can't be the only one who noticed this. |
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Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 08:49:00 -
[631] - Quote
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28659
ok as I expeted Hans .... blog showed nothing just pointing to my major fears ... ccp wants fw to become null wasteland (because Ytter thinks he is smart ... right?)
well after reading the blog really considering leaving FW even before the patch .... CCP really screwed it badly and vector of changes is even worse.
Lock out wrote:Reikoku aren't going trough their best times, same as Dark Rising which joined Gallente. Unless someone like Solar, -A-, PL, NCdot or others of that caliber join, FW can handle it easly. Hell, we scored the ocasional gank or win in subcaps even against some of those entities when we brought our A game. More PVP (even against larger entitiies) won't be what kills FW, forced PVE will accomplish that.
well I am afraid u never faced these blobs full scale ... only foreced them to engage in some ocasional situations .... if they will decide to roll over one side .... only another jesus blob can stop them .....
sigh
but the only motivation for them might be the isk sources (which will not be that interesting) or T2 datacores .... which can be sourced still via afk plexing so no need to hassle around with major fleets.
I am afraid ccp is totaly untouched by reality of game with all potential consequences. IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 09:27:00 -
[632] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28659 ok as I expeted Hans .... blog showed nothing just pointing to my major fears ... ccp wants fw to become null wasteland (because Ytter thinks he is smart ... right?) well after reading the blog really considering leaving FW even before the patch .... CCP really screwed it badly and vector of changes is even worse. I am afraid ccp is totaly untouched by reality of game with all potential consequences.
Hey, how angry are you that we plexed Rak and flipped it and now you can't take it back? Also I've noticed that you didn't have much to say about all this until we did so and now you are raging like a child. Have fun leaving FW and watching your corp dissolve.
|
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 09:32:00 -
[633] - Quote
marketjacker wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28659 ok as I expeted Hans .... blog showed nothing just pointing to my major fears ... ccp wants fw to become null wasteland (because Ytter thinks he is smart ... right?) well after reading the blog really considering leaving FW even before the patch .... CCP really screwed it badly and vector of changes is even worse. I am afraid ccp is totaly untouched by reality of game with all potential consequences. Hey, how angry are you that we plexed Rak and flipped it and now you can't take it back? Also I've noticed that you didn't have much to say about all this until we did so and now you are raging like a child. Have fun leaving FW and watching your corp dissolve.
Well game is big and we had other offers before.... FW is not everything .... but allways will find some time to gank ur tengu ...oh it never happened right ;)
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 09:43:00 -
[634] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:marketjacker wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28659 ok as I expeted Hans .... blog showed nothing just pointing to my major fears ... ccp wants fw to become null wasteland (because Ytter thinks he is smart ... right?) well after reading the blog really considering leaving FW even before the patch .... CCP really screwed it badly and vector of changes is even worse. I am afraid ccp is totaly untouched by reality of game with all potential consequences. Hey, how angry are you that we plexed Rak and flipped it and now you can't take it back? Also I've noticed that you didn't have much to say about all this until we did so and now you are raging like a child. Have fun leaving FW and watching your corp dissolve. Well game is big and we had other offers before.... FW is not everything .... but allways will find some time to gank ur tengu ...oh it never happened right ;) with all respect we are just little dust particles in the EVE universe ....
The thing is you were ok with these changes and said nothing (nor did most of IBS) until it became clear they would affect you greatly. It's ok, we've enjoyed seeing you guys attempt to fight for Rakapas and we hope you do till eviction day, but I think I've never seen so much rambling from IBS on the forums as I did the day after we took Rakapas. Before then I think you were content to have these changes roll in. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
92
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 09:46:00 -
[635] - Quote
I can see how older, established corps and players might wish to join a currently "losing" side, when there is the possibility of more action, and the lure of earning large amounts of lp, then cashing it in when the lp store is more favourable. Using their isk and ship reserves, and planning for the long term and so on.
I wonder though about newer corps and players. The tutorial still gives out the "letter of recommendation" which allows new accounts of <30 days age to join, even if they don't have the relevant standings yet.
However, with station access not guaranteed, and poorer rates of return on lp, newer entities may not have a satisfactory income from FW if they join a "losing" side, and have to depend more heavily on other sources of income.
Might create a bad initial impression, and thus be a problem for recruitment later on. And less people coming in, will tend to stagnate things for the opposing sides too.
Will be interesting to see how it turns out, after a few months. |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 10:03:00 -
[636] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:I can see how older, established corps and players might wish to join a currently "losing" side, when there is the possibility of more action, and the lure of earning large amounts of lp, then cashing it in when the lp store is more favourable. Using their isk and ship reserves, and planning for the long term and so on.
I wonder though about newer corps and players. The tutorial still gives out the "letter of recommendation" which allows new accounts of <30 days age to join, even if they don't have the relevant standings yet.
However, with station access not guaranteed, and poorer rates of return on lp, newer entities may not have a satisfactory income from FW if they join a "losing" side, and have to depend more heavily on other sources of income.
Might create a bad initial impression, and thus be a problem for recruitment later on. And less people coming in, will tend to stagnate things for the opposing sides too.
Will be interesting to see how it turns out, after a few months.
unfortunately what i know current loosing side corps are gonna leave.... IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 10:08:00 -
[637] - Quote
marketjacker wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:marketjacker wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28659 ok as I expeted Hans .... blog showed nothing just pointing to my major fears ... ccp wants fw to become null wasteland (because Ytter thinks he is smart ... right?) well after reading the blog really considering leaving FW even before the patch .... CCP really screwed it badly and vector of changes is even worse. I am afraid ccp is totaly untouched by reality of game with all potential consequences. Hey, how angry are you that we plexed Rak and flipped it and now you can't take it back? Also I've noticed that you didn't have much to say about all this until we did so and now you are raging like a child. Have fun leaving FW and watching your corp dissolve. Well game is big and we had other offers before.... FW is not everything .... but allways will find some time to gank ur tengu ...oh it never happened right ;) with all respect we are just little dust particles in the EVE universe .... The thing is you were ok with these changes and said nothing (nor did most of IBS) until it became clear they would affect you greatly. It's ok, we've enjoyed seeing you guys attempt to fight for Rakapas and we hope you do till eviction day, but I think I've never seen so much rambling from IBS on the forums as I did the day after we took Rakapas. Before then I think you were content to have these changes roll in.
not sure what u talking about ... I oposed it before u took it .... even when it was first presented on fanfest ... in general i opose idea of null sec light for lowsec ... when it comes to conceptional things i do rage because of lack of conception from CCP ... i personally dont like too much to be a guinea pig. They are just throwing on ideas and wishing they will hit something (especially the lp changes are total pile of ****).
In general i dont care too much for Rakapas ... I do care for lowsec and NPC null ... the last remnants of game without nullbears and carebears.
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Robotics Darkmatter Initiative
541
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 12:44:00 -
[638] - Quote
NPC null is full of carebears, they're all running the Pirate faction missions. Same with the people who join FW just to do the missions in stealth bombers. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
175
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 14:01:00 -
[639] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:NPC null is full of carebears, they're all running the Pirate faction missions. Same with the people who join FW just to do the missions in stealth bombers.
Syndicate not so much, because it's crap for isk making. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
183
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 21:09:00 -
[640] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:NPC null is full of carebears, they're all running the Pirate faction missions. Same with the people who join FW just to do the missions in stealth bombers.
NPC null is just a place to dock if you want to live in null sec with out sov.. kinda like low sec .. welp I mean low sec for guys not in FW..
If you just sit in same few systems in NPC null it's very boring and borderline ghey, kinda like camping high sec gates in low sec. Maybe you get some kills but the PVP overall tends to be dry & less filling..
Base out of npc null or low sec that is close to active sov space and do roams into that sov space.. That's where you will get the fun, but it's much different play style than FW. You have to keep moving at a pretty decent pace and take random fights that you happened to fall into..
It's more about setting up a basic route and heading out on a long roam seeing what you run into, or better yet what comes looking for you. Honestly between Gals & Caldari we live in one of the best locations in the game to randomly roam null sec and I've always been amazed more don't do it. |
|
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
175
|
Posted - 2012.05.12 22:31:00 -
[641] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:Honestly between Gals & Caldari we live in one of the best locations in the game to randomly roam null sec and I've always been amazed more don't do it.
We do from time to time, but usually we have a problem with ppl beeing used to fly around in low with HG sets and stuff so we kinda have to give them advanced warning to have clone jump available. While Syndicate seems to be more active in US TZ, which doesn;t suit us really well, we found the whole CR - PB area to be delicious, and started frequenting it quite often. I strongly reccomend FA for a visit, if you give them numbers advantage , they will bring a fight. |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
752
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 01:11:00 -
[642] - Quote
What we have to look forward too now is worse stagnation in FW then we had before.
Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Lord Azeroth
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 02:16:00 -
[643] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:What we have to look forward too now is worse stagnation in FW then we had before.
The joy !!! |
Jimmy Nickson
The Lucky Star
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 02:34:00 -
[644] - Quote
Lord Azeroth wrote:RougeOperator wrote:What we have to look forward too now is worse stagnation in FW then we had before.
The joy !!!
Indeed, so puzzle pirates anyone? j/k'ing.... but I do see fw going to be pirate warfare zone instead of faction warfare zone now Fire ze missiles! |
Silence iKillYouu
KA POW POW Inc Late Night Alliance
165
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 03:56:00 -
[645] - Quote
your all a bunch of whiny btchs
Wait and see. FW will be more active then ever.
http://fw-frontline.blogspot.com/ |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
752
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 06:09:00 -
[646] - Quote
Silence iKillYouu wrote:
Wait and see.
How about NO.
Im sick of that "wait and see line." I have seen so many games and MMOs die because the fanbase took this stance. After so many horrible games this year and decisions by game companies this year that make CCPs INFERNO launch honestly look amazingly good by comparison that "WAIT AND SEE" approach is complete rubbish now. Its got no legs anymore.
Most of use are savvy enough or work with games and know when something is a bad Idea.
I have yet to see anything good from taking that type of stance on anything.
Im looking not at the short term this new stuff will give us. Im also looking at the end game. And also the new freaking entry barriers that this type of crap puts in place on the newer players is crazy. Its so unfriendly too new players entering the action its not even funny.
Im a fan of good solid gameplay good solid stuff that encourages people to take risks. Like good rewards for plexing and or fighting. And this is not it. This is utter crap and poorly thought out endgame content all over it.
CONSEQUENCES, yeah ok the this is a pretty shallow argument as taking a ship out and fighting with it is consequence enough. If CCP things docking games are a problem they should make the aggression timers longer. There is your consequence.
A better idea to create more actiong was to give FW players better insurance payouts for losing ships in FW space. Rememeber how many larger fights there were when losing a BS thanks to insurance wasn't that bad. I say they should have approached FW with carrots not sticks. They should be doing things that make people say, HEY let me take out my ship. Not have people move their stuff to Highsec for safety.
EDIT: And the real problem here is that the stuff we learned about at fanfest was more then likely under way in some stage of development. And that is honestly way to late for those of us hearing about it for the first time to really get our teeth into it and see how it tastes. Or how it works in action. Or to say hey CCP dont waste man hours and money on bad ideas.
When it comes down to it we are still in the discussion stage of it as players. While CCP is already seemingly full bore ahead on it. With the feeling they are now doing something with FW just to say they did something without a full real consideration of what the FW community really wants and needs then to work on. They just decided to slap NULL sec concepts onto FW and that is just wrong. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
91
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 06:47:00 -
[647] - Quote
What we are getting is FW as seen through the eyes of null .. since changes are 99% identical to the Fanfest presentation it must have been planned based on feedback from the pure null CSM .. in that light it is understandable that it reeks of what "they know". Sad part is that it means the Devs responsible for it also has no experience with/in FW if they have leaned so heavily on the 'knowledge' of the CSM (and probably their beloved metrics).
Increasing insurance payouts for ships lost in FW space ... hmmmm. Actually a pretty nifty idea, proper pirates would come around more often and tedious ISK gathering to sustain the war effort would be marginalized .. I think I like that |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
753
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 07:12:00 -
[648] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:What we are getting is FW as seen through the eyes of null .. since changes are 99% identical to the Fanfest presentation it must have been planned based on feedback from the pure null CSM .. in that light it is understandable that it reeks of what "they know". Sad part is that it means the Devs responsible for it also has no experience with/in FW if they have leaned so heavily on the 'knowledge' of the CSM (and probably their beloved metrics). Increasing insurance payouts for ships lost in FW space ... hmmmm. Actually a pretty nifty idea, proper pirates would come around more often and tedious ISK gathering to sustain the war effort would be marginalized .. I think I like that
Yeah we used to have better fights back when people in fw could easily replace lost ships. Ships lost in FW can be insured for cost would create a good incentive to bring out cooler ships and be in FW and fight in low. Also fits RP to be somewhat subsidized by the state you are fighting for indirectly. But it was just to highlight that there were many options on the table they did not look at.
I think you are right that most of what we are getting was not actually something from the FW perspective as a whole. It reeks of null influence. While taking a glorious dump on many things FW players wanted. They wanted their time spent in FW to mean something. Turning it into a grind fest does not add meaning to what we do. There in is the trick that is being played on us. They are saying the meaning is in keeping from getting locked out. When simply shutting of station services would have the same effect but not be retroactively harshly punitive against players. They want to pretend that station lock out is the meaning when you could have had it be anything like Navy spawns that help out in fights or substantial bonuses to ratting and or exploration site spawns or something. Forcing those of use that want a casual pvp zone to have to have logistics chains like a null alliance to work. Instead of us being able to stash ships in a system we want to fight over is insulting.
The station lockout is silly. Its flawed just from the fact its not applied to to neutrals in some way as well. If there was some honest thought on this lock out stuff they would have made it standings based as well. Dont have a 3.0 standing with amarr. Sorry cant dock etc. -10 pie sorry cant doc here. But im against station lock out in low sec period.
I can see that they already had this stuff in the works and planned most likely before fanfest. I was told by people (Including Hans) then to pretty much "wait and see" when i was up in arms about what i was hearing then. Thing is they had DATES set for the expansion and they were announcing stuff at fanfest. Odds were high that they were going to implement the stuff they were talking about and it was not just talk of ideas at that point. I doubt that there was going to be much chance to change the direction they were going with this. They had already decided what they were going to do.
EDIT: this will also kill small scale pvp, enjoy the blob warfare that will become the norm. And im talking null like blob warfare. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Liamn
Atrum Deus Vult
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 08:58:00 -
[649] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Also, I just described why a group would want to join the losing faction, because its possible to make incredible profits over the course of a campaign that assists a militia in making a major comeback. No need to go over that again.
As for the system upgrades, there will be more on the way and thereGÇÖs definitely items the CSM has already been pushing for that only didnGÇÖt make it into this release due to lack of time. Thankfully CCP will be working on this up to and including a Winter expansion with even more iterations. I donGÇÖt mind someone questioning what IGÇÖve been up to, though you are correct that much is covered by the NDA.
Hans, you are showing your inexperience and short-sightedness in FW - any campaign to assist the losing side is temporary (i.e. FW has been there, done that). BTW goons: here's another griefing strategy for ya. Oh, and you don't have to be committed to it: take a month, two three GÇô whatever fancies you. And by the way, you could control the market on some FW LP store items and datacores. And of course, bring your rivals into the area. I am sure CCP will reinforce the nodes to accommodate the influx of traffic. And when you leave, give me 2% of your profits for the ideas.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: I can say that as a FW pilot, almost every single major complaint that the community has had as far as missing elements is being investigated, but deadlines are deadlines and this is only the first round. That is why many forum posters are panicking, and I personally seem a lot more relaxed and optimistic. CCP isnGÇÖt asking me to buffer them at all, itGÇÖs just completely useless for me to go around pitchforking on the forums for issues that I know are being worked on.
It appears that either you don't have any influence in your role as a CSM member; or you are allowing CCP to play you for a fool. |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 13:22:00 -
[650] - Quote
Liamn wrote:It appears that either you don't have any influence in your role as a CSM member; or you are allowing CCP to play you for a fool.
Or Hans is just a regular politician...
|
|
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 13:39:00 -
[651] - Quote
Here is an Inferno expansion idea that is worthwhile for FW: Please post your support. |
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins Amarr 7th Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 14:22:00 -
[652] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote: Im looking not at the short term this new stuff will give us. Im also looking at the end game. And also the new freaking entry barriers that this type of crap puts in place on the newer players is crazy.
CCP wrote:Factional Warfare is the PVP training ground for new players, ... After youGÇÖve cut your teeth in Factional Warfare or solo combat, itGÇÖs time to step into the shadows. ... http://www.eveonline.com/inferno/
|
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 15:19:00 -
[653] - Quote
So let me get this straight: People die all the time, yet you think that CCP should plaster their "We love gallente militia" sticker across the stars because you have a sentimental outburst over your militia member?
|
marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 15:55:00 -
[654] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:So let me get this straight: People die all the time, yet you think that CCP should plaster their "We love gallente militia" sticker across the stars because you have a sentimental outburst over your militia member?
You seriously need help you sick piece of ****. |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 17:36:00 -
[655] - Quote
Is there a reason CCP removes my messages from board, even an innocent one which only says "no" ? |
marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 17:53:00 -
[656] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:Is there a reason CCP removes my messages from board, even an innocent one which only says "no" ?
No one likes a mentally unstable sociopaths posts. |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 17:58:00 -
[657] - Quote
marketjacker wrote:No one likes a mentally unstable sociopaths posts.
Why are you here then? |
marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 18:03:00 -
[658] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:marketjacker wrote:No one likes a mentally unstable sociopaths posts. Why are you here then?
M8 you're way out of line insulting a great guy who has passed and clearly need to be institutionalized. |
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch Caldari State Capturing
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 18:06:00 -
[659] - Quote
marketjacker wrote:M8 you're way out of line insulting a great guy who has passed and clearly need to be institutionalized.
How am I insulting anyone? Please explain.
|
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
92
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 18:25:00 -
[660] - Quote
Yuri Intaki wrote:marketjacker wrote:M8 you're way out of line insulting a great guy who has passed and clearly need to be institutionalized. How am I insulting anyone? Please explain.
I didn't see what you posted, so I can't comment on it.
But if it was a polite disagreement, then I don't see why they should have deleted it UNLESS it was in poor taste.
Yes Damar, we get you don't like us. That is fine and I support you being able to say you don't like us. But there is some point where sometimes it is just better to say nothing at all if you have nothing good to say. This, IMHO, is one of those times. |
|
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 18:34:00 -
[661] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Yes Damar, we get you don't like us. That is fine and I support you being able to say you don't like us. But there is some point where sometimes it is just better to say nothing at all if you have nothing good to say. This, IMHO, is one of those times.
I was actually going to answer this one in fairly neutral and polite manner but Yuri got banned from forums. I seem to be pretty good at this. It's ok. I have plenty of alts to post with.
5m isk says Joanna will be banned in less than an hour. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
92
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 18:55:00 -
[662] - Quote
Joanna Ramirez wrote:Hrett wrote:Yes Damar, we get you don't like us. That is fine and I support you being able to say you don't like us. But there is some point where sometimes it is just better to say nothing at all if you have nothing good to say. This, IMHO, is one of those times. I was actually going to answer this one in fairly neutral and polite manner but Yuri got banned from forums. I seem to be pretty good at this. It's ok. I have plenty of alts to post with. I mean, I post "no" to that other thread and it gets removed and Yuri is banned. Other guy says "Can I have his stuff" and while certainly bit inappropriate, is not removed. 5m isk says Joanna will be banned in less than an hour after posting this message.
Again, I don't know. Is Damar banned? Perhaps that is why Yuri was too? Perhaps you should just serve it out with all of your alts so it doesn't become final. Whatever people say about you, you are a good enemy to have in FW and do a lot for the Caldari. I would hate to see you permanent-banned. |
marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 19:15:00 -
[663] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Joanna Ramirez wrote:Hrett wrote:Yes Damar, we get you don't like us. That is fine and I support you being able to say you don't like us. But there is some point where sometimes it is just better to say nothing at all if you have nothing good to say. This, IMHO, is one of those times. I was actually going to answer this one in fairly neutral and polite manner but Yuri got banned from forums. I seem to be pretty good at this. It's ok. I have plenty of alts to post with. I mean, I post "no" to that other thread and it gets removed and Yuri is banned. Other guy says "Can I have his stuff" and while certainly bit inappropriate, is not removed. 5m isk says Joanna will be banned in less than an hour after posting this message. Again, I don't know. Is Damar banned? Perhaps that is why Yuri was too? Perhaps you should just serve it out with all of your alts so it doesn't become final. Whatever people say about you, you are a good enemy to have in FW and do a lot for the Caldari. I would hate to see you permanent-banned.
I'm just glad they removed his truly disgusting disrespectful garbage. It's a game, he's gone off the deep end to cross the lines he did. |
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 20:34:00 -
[664] - Quote
marketjacker wrote:I'm just glad they removed his truly disgusting disrespectful garbage. It's a game, he's gone off the deep end to cross the lines he did.
Because I disagree? No I assure you I have not lost my wits or my sharp tongue and nothing I said was at all even directed at the dead person or at least to his behavior from my perspective. I simply questioned Hrett's motives and meta-game goals when it came to his suggestion on other thread. Hell, if any of it comes to fruition you should probably thank me since CCP is obviously peeved at me and might just do it now. |
Lord Azeroth
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 20:50:00 -
[665] - Quote
How about we get back on the topic of the destruction of FW we are about to witness. |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 20:59:00 -
[666] - Quote
Or the revival, perhaps? |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
208
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 21:07:00 -
[667] - Quote
Lord Azeroth wrote:How about we get back on the topic of the destruction of FW we are about to witness. Well hopefully it'll be quick and Ytter will be forced to adjust sov lockout sooner rather than later. |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
754
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 23:14:00 -
[668] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:Or the revival, perhaps?
Sigma, explain how this leads to a revival? I want some detailed reasoning as to how.
Cause All i see is tracks being laid for it to be null sec light. Needing logistic chains and super blobs is where this leads cause we already see that in Null. And they are overlaying Null over FW. Instead of making FW its own experience they are just making it a variant of null sec style game play long run.
All i see is your options being limited high sec and null sec variants of play as opposed to the old High, Low, Null.
They are taking three different ways to play and distilling it too only two ways to play the game. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Jones Bones
Overload Everything Heretic Nation
50
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 00:33:00 -
[669] - Quote
When the people cry out, I must answer their call.
Jones Bones; master of the seven seas, plunderer of the untouched virgins, decimator of the blobby hordes, drinker of the Jagermeister, rager of the comms, a will hard as kinda hard wood, the strength of 20 midgets; hereby offers his needed services to the pathetic apostates of the Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade.
My demands: - A throne room decorate in 80s fashion. - Slaves for pleasure and pain. - An unlimited supply of red grapes. Don't ask.
If any Amarr FW corp can meet these demands AND wants the greatest gift the gods ever gave their pathetic worshippers, contact me. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
102
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 01:15:00 -
[670] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:When the people cry out, I must answer their call.
Jones Bones; master of the seven seas, plunderer of the untouched virgins, decimator of the blobby hordes, drinker of the Jagermeister, rager of the comms, a will hard as kinda hard wood, the strength of 20 midgets; hereby offers his needed services to the pathetic apostates of the Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade.
My demands: - A throne room decorate in 80s fashion. - Slaves for pleasure and pain. - An unlimited supply of red grapes. Don't ask.
If any Amarr FW corp can meet these demands AND wants the greatest gift the gods ever gave their pathetic worshippers, contact me.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here, but I can tell it will be helpful to the Amarr.
As for the FW changes, I will give them a chance. We will see. |
|
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
235
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 01:49:00 -
[671] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:SigmaPi wrote:Or the revival, perhaps? Sigma, explain how this leads to a revival? I want some detailed reasoning as to how. Cause All i see is tracks being laid for it to be null sec light. Needing logistic chains and super blobs is where this leads cause we already see that in Null. And they are overlaying Null over FW. Instead of making FW its own experience they are just making it a variant of null sec style game play long run. All i see is your options being limited high sec and null sec variants of play as opposed to the old High, Low, Null. They are taking three different ways to play and distilling it too only two ways to play the game.
RO, I know the "doom and gloom" approach is your trademark, but you blowing this way out of proportion in my opinion.
The only resemblance this has to nullsec is the fact that system occupancy/sovereignty now means something beyond RP reasons.
The Nullsec sov-system, with timed Structure grinds creates an environment where there are alarm-clock ops in which the side with the strongest blob wins.
The Inferno FW sov-system, lacking the timed Structure grinds of Nullsec which are replaced with ship-type limiting, fast-respawning Plexes and the instantly vulnerable Bunker bust, is going to inspire a lot of fast, mobile, multi-system guerrilla warfare.
Your fleet is outnumbered? Split up, plex in adjacent systems, force their fleet to split their forces as well, catch what you can and vanish before the hammer can land.
I see that the Bunker Busting system might engender the Blob, but the fact that it goes immediately vulnerable without having some kind of RF timer will be very helpful to the attacker. I think the Bunker HP should be decreased, though, since I feel most of the fighting for a system will/should take place in the plexing-stage and not in the final Bunker bust.
As for the Station Lockout thing, plunk down a small tower with a Ship Maintenance Array. vOv
It won't be impossible for the Amarr/Caldari to fight back. Sure, it will be tough and it'll require cooperation and effort on their part, but honestly, I think it will be a good catalyst to inspire cooperation/effort on their part, an element they are sorely lacking. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
758
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 02:32:00 -
[672] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:RougeOperator wrote:SigmaPi wrote:Or the revival, perhaps? Sigma, explain how this leads to a revival? I want some detailed reasoning as to how. Cause All i see is tracks being laid for it to be null sec light. Needing logistic chains and super blobs is where this leads cause we already see that in Null. And they are overlaying Null over FW. Instead of making FW its own experience they are just making it a variant of null sec style game play long run. All i see is your options being limited high sec and null sec variants of play as opposed to the old High, Low, Null. They are taking three different ways to play and distilling it too only two ways to play the game. RO, I know the "doom and gloom" approach is your trademark, but you blowing this way out of proportion in my opinion. The only resemblance this has to nullsec is the fact that system occupancy/sovereignty now means something beyond RP reasons. The Nullsec sov-system, with timed Structure grinds creates an environment where there are alarm-clock ops in which the side with the strongest blob wins. The Inferno FW sov-system, lacking the timed Structure grinds of Nullsec which are replaced with ship-type limiting, fast-respawning Plexes and the instantly vulnerable Bunker bust, is going to inspire a lot of fast, mobile, multi-system guerrilla warfare. Your fleet is outnumbered? Split up, plex in adjacent systems, force their fleet to split their forces as well, catch what you can and vanish before the hammer can land. I see that the Bunker Busting system might engender the Blob, but the fact that it goes immediately vulnerable without having some kind of RF timer will be very helpful to the attacker. I think the Bunker HP should be decreased, though, since I feel most of the fighting for a system will/should take place in the plexing-stage and not in the final Bunker bust. As for the Station Lockout thing, plunk down a small tower with a Ship Maintenance Array. vOv It won't be impossible for the Amarr/Caldari to fight back. Sure, it will be tough and it'll require cooperation and effort on their part, but honestly, I think it will be a good catalyst to inspire cooperation/effort on their part, an element they are sorely lacking.
I have yet to be wrong yet Vordak. Its not "doom and gloom". Its like i have a crystal ball due to years of experience or something.
its exactly like nullsec, everyone is going to know when a system is vulnerable and when the bunker fight is etc. This is not diffrent. It boils down into knowing when stuff is going to flip etc. And the way to fight effectively is going to mirror NULL. Or you will fail getting anywhere.
The fact you are saying they JUST NEED TO COOPERATE is pretty telling. You do realize that means bigger blobs. It means the break down of the rag tag nature of FW in favor of an organized system and way of fighting similar to.....NULL SEC.
Your post just reinforces indirectly what I have been saying. Really sit down and think about it for a second man. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
94
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 03:06:00 -
[673] - Quote
The current system was to supposedly to be a template for a sovereignty revamp, FW was once upon a time a null guinea pig .. but CCP chickened out. Remember all the talk prior to Dominion about CCP wanting null sov to be lots of smaller objectives and multiple targets spread across entire systems and/or constellations .. now look at FW again. The only good thing about this coming ****-storm is that CCP will probably try to push/sell it to the null-bears only to be brutally shot down and mutilated in all digital media for wanting to destroy the sandbox (top entry on the null resist-change lobbys list of talking points) at which point we might be able to ret through to them
As for it being BlobVille; Say you Shakorites have all station systems which will be a piece of PIE with the current mechanics (Actual FW balancing work wont hit until SoonGäó). Our plexing crews have to mobilise out of high-sec -> meaning we need to be ships appropriate for the plexes we plan to take as we have no reships -> most likely cruisers for med/maj with 2-3 dessies/frigs for minors. - No matter what size plex we enter, chances are we will be met with more numbers of appropriate size as you Shakorites have at most one jump to reship. You merely leave a few redundant (in fleet terms) frigs behind on timers while the horde moves in unison .. perpetually outnumbering the enemy .. it is the way it works now and lockouts will reinforce that trend.
We have had plenty of cooperation but it is kind of hard to motivate people to participate in a bicycle race when they can see the competition are issued mopeds .. yes, difference in ease-of-plexing is that great. Every week we put in is countered by a few days .. and that is when plexing crew numbers are even (which they only were 20 months ago or so). |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
758
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 04:18:00 -
[674] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:The current system was to supposedly to be a template for a sovereignty revamp, FW was once upon a time a null guinea pig .. but CCP chickened out. Remember all the talk prior to Dominion about CCP wanting null sov to be lots of smaller objectives and multiple targets spread across entire systems and/or constellations .. now look at FW again. The only good thing about this coming ****-storm is that CCP will probably try to push/sell it to the null-bears only to be brutally shot down and mutilated in all digital media for wanting to destroy the sandbox (top entry on the null resist-change lobbys list of talking points) at which point we might be able to ret through to them
As for it being BlobVille; Say you Shakorites have all station systems which will be a piece of PIE with the current mechanics (Actual FW balancing work wont hit until SoonGäó). Our plexing crews have to mobilise out of high-sec -> meaning we need to be ships appropriate for the plexes we plan to take as we have no reships -> most likely cruisers for med/maj with 2-3 dessies/frigs for minors. - No matter what size plex we enter, chances are we will be met with more numbers of appropriate size as you Shakorites have at most one jump to reship. You merely leave a few redundant (in fleet terms) frigs behind on timers while the horde moves in unison .. perpetually outnumbering the enemy .. it is the way it works now and lockouts will reinforce that trend.
We have had plenty of cooperation but it is kind of hard to motivate people to participate in a bicycle race when they can see the competition are issued mopeds .. yes, difference in ease-of-plexing is that great. Every week we put in is countered by a few days .. and that is when plexing crew numbers are even (which they only were 20 months ago or so).
Exactly
The fact is CCP is not realistically accounting for human nature and how it will play out according to human nature. I cant help but think they have a pie in the sky idea of how it SHOULD work. Not how people will actually play the game in the end. I think your example is very close to how we will see stuff play out.
Its such a huge red flag Im having a hard time seeing how CCP can miss it. Do they not have anyone playing devils advocate for stuff when they have these meetings.
The really need to have a someone there to be the black rain cloud on some of this stuff. Or at the very least if there is someone there doing that they need to take it seriously.
Or maybe a check list. How will this work short term. How will this look a year from now with this structure. What is the worst case that could come from this. ETC. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 05:38:00 -
[675] - Quote
Faction Warfare whine threads from the future:
BAN 'Ninja whoring'
FW alts in bombers are uncloaking near fights and TPing everyone to get a slice of the LP. They're stealing my LP! CCP, LP should be awarded based on damage done which ... well, about logi ... FC should decide? ... I think the whores in Crucifiers are even worse, they're ruining fights ...
EXPLOITERS awarded LP in own deaths!!
We just took out this entire gang, OK, but when we looked at the killmails we saw that everyone in this gang had applied some EWAR to each other before we engaged. So they got on each others' KM, and we got less LP for it! .... intrafleet actions ... intramilitia actions? ...
GTFO out my plex
So this guy in my militia came into the plex I was taking in a dual-prop dramiel and ran around on grid, doing nothing to help, and he got LP for it. OK, a **** thing to do, but then he did it again and again. Don't say he was trying to kite the rats, 'cause if I've got a while left on the timer, he just warps back out. ... the dramiels are tough, but people use other ships, so I brought my other-militia alt into plexes with me and we just take turns ... what?! What's wrong with that? ...
Why is it easier to contest a whole region than a single system?
So I took my slicer out (an embarrassing PvE one that you'll never see on a KB, since even minor rats can grind you down and I can't dock>repair>undock>fight when I see someone coming anyway, so why bother...) and took a minor in every single system that had one in the Metropolis and Heimatar regions. I had to run from maybe 1-2 pirates -- I didn't see a single wt out here.
And then I tried to grind down one system (phew, 1 plex down, only 149 to go!), so I took the minors, and then I needed to reship, so I have to fly all the way back ... really? You can take even a major with two T1 frigs? ****, why am I even bothering without an alt?
NERF FW CAREBEARS: the front lines should be the front lines
^^^ you see that guy who contested two entire regions by himself? That's bullshit! I was docked in Arzad the entire time he was doing that, waiting to hear that someone was trying to take a plex here ... no LP awarded for non-frontline systems ... ones next to enemy systems, duh ... what if there were no LP unless it were _really_ contested, like if the enemy tried to decontest the system ... if there were a fight in the plex ... just ban people with enemy alts! That's an exploit! ...
**** this, losing's more profitable than winning
So I joined the NPC militia corp after Inferno, and got right to getting paid to take systems -- but we'd already taken every system but, like, these horrible enemy 'home' systems. So every time I tried to take a plex by myself I just died immediately. It seemed like my system-taking options were limited to 1) join the blob, or 2) **** off. But I wanted to give FW a chance, so I started trying to defend systems. I mean, every single one of our systems is contested, and I've run into solo and small groups of wts doing that, so fighting them should be fun, right? Actually, it was! When I could get a fight, I mean; they really seemed more adverse to combat than I thought people would be in Faction Warfare - I still can't figure out why I didn't get some of those fights.
I had fun doing this for a while, but when I started to get short on isk, it suddenly hit me: the people I was fighting were making isk even as I fought them! ...
Some questions for ex-militia who've moved to NPC null. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
184
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 07:26:00 -
[676] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote: Exactly
The fact is CCP is not realistic.
Could have just stopped at that part..
After playing this game a few years now, I've come to the conclusion that design process at CCP revolves around.. "Hey I have to really cool idea....and shiny stuff!!!"
With out a whole lot of actually playing game & understanding what the players really want vs what a newest hot topic complaint on the forum is at the moment. |
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
176
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 08:33:00 -
[677] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote: It won't be impossible for the Amarr/Caldari to fight back. Sure, it will be tough and it'll require cooperation and effort on their part, but honestly, I think it will be a good catalyst to inspire cooperation/effort on their part, an element they are sorely lacking.
It will be impossible. We decided to flip Enaluri yesterday. Caldari had their best effort that I've seen in ages, 50 guys all in one system, coming at us over and over again. We just rallied ppl, got more than 50, curbstomped them and then dreadbombed the bunker before they had the chance to run another plex to get it out of vulnerable. They are rebuilding and they can't cope with fighting against superior numbers, more experiencd pilots and better ships. So all in all they are gonna lose system after system.
Not only that, but it's a lose lose situation. We win, we have no targets left in lowsec. We lose, we get locked out of stn. IF it's a balance, lots of hours of spinning around a boring button. And once in a blue moon when stars align a dessie fight in a plex.
I mean sure, it might lead to the nice fight now and then. But how about all those times when I'll have to spin buttons for 4 hrs to decontest my home system with no one coming in those plexes to shoot at me ? A lot of ppl that came for pvp not pve are gonna drop FW, simple as. Lemme give you some **** from our forums :
"To be honest, I am reluctantly waiting to see how it goes. But if it gets to 4 hrs / day plexing just to be able to dock, FW becomes a non option."
"I've read quite a lot of people saying they are / will leave. For us it's a case of let's see how it turns out, if it ends up being just a crazy grind then it's a no brainer tbh."
"if we have to plex for hours to get the system back, people will get bored of it, unless we get fight but i doubt."
"I hope I'm wrong, but I think we might have to leave Nisuwa, leave FW if we wanna stay in Nis or plex our asses off every day to stay in FW and in Nis... "
And these quotes come from guys on (what's generally considered) the winning side atm. Can;t even imagine how the losing sides (caldari/amarr) feel about it. |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
121
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 08:59:00 -
[678] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Lord Azeroth wrote:How about we get back on the topic of the destruction of FW we are about to witness. Well hopefully it'll be quick and Ytter will be forced to adjust sov lockout sooner rather than later.
I just hope he will get fired .... IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
121
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 09:04:00 -
[679] - Quote
Lock out wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote: It won't be impossible for the Amarr/Caldari to fight back. Sure, it will be tough and it'll require cooperation and effort on their part, but honestly, I think it will be a good catalyst to inspire cooperation/effort on their part, an element they are sorely lacking.
lot of quotes .... And these quotes come from guys on (what's generally considered) the winning side atm. Can;t even imagine how the losing sides (caldari/amarr) feel about it.
funny is that it is similar ... did FC the last slaughter in minor in Enaluri . ... well it was just what I said before .... FW will become wasteland with blobfests ... we are getting it now in small scale ... I really hope that CCP Yter will get fired for this.
Not see too much reasons for IBS to stay as we are the only true lowsec corp performing on our side ... leave this please without comments.
Mutnin wrote:RougeOperator wrote: Exactly
The fact is CCP is not realistic.
Could have just stopped at that part.. After playing this game a few years now, I've come to the conclusion that design process at CCP revolves around.. " Hey I have to really cool idea....and shiny stuff!!!" With out a whole lot of actually playing game & understanding what the players really want vs what a newest hot topic complaint on the forum is at the moment.
after years working on managerial levl of big corporations (the RL one guys ;) ) I have to say this is process happening in bad companies (80% of the market) and process happening in badly managed game development houses (used to work for 3 in past on quite big titles as a game designer and exec. producer). Get used to it. ..... IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
185
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 09:09:00 -
[680] - Quote
Lock out wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote: It won't be impossible for the Amarr/Caldari to fight back. Sure, it will be tough and it'll require cooperation and effort on their part, but honestly, I think it will be a good catalyst to inspire cooperation/effort on their part, an element they are sorely lacking.
It will be impossible. We decided to flip Enaluri yesterday. Caldari had their best effort that I've seen in ages, 50 guys all in one system, coming at us over and over again. We just rallied ppl, got more than 50, curbstomped them and then dreadbombed the bunker before they had the chance to run another plex to get it out of vulnerable. They are rebuilding and they can't cope with fighting against superior numbers, more experiencd pilots and better ships. So all in all they are gonna lose system after system. Not only that, but it's a lose lose situation. We win, we have no targets left in lowsec. We lose, we get locked out of stn. IF it's a balance, lots of hours of spinning around a boring button. And once in a blue moon when stars align a dessie fight in a plex.
1st off I will say you are a lucky **** to get that Navy Geddon out the other day in structure and the friendly carriers were totally unexpected from us. We jumped into behind you guys started shooting stuff and in comes 3 or 4 friendly carriers and we were like wtf is this..
Personally, I wasn't happy when they engaged again after allowing you guys time to set up bait & trap. I pretty much figured that was gonna go wrong.. lol
On Enal today it went pretty much as expected IMHO.. I've personally been beating the drum that Caldari fleets in general are not up to par and I've gotten much flack & resistance about it so I figure it's not worth the hassle if guys can't figure it out by now.
Fights in Enal today were direct result in how unprepared Caldari Militia is at the moment. Personally I've seen this coming from the day CCP announced station lock outs and tried to push the other corps to agree to use fleet fit BCs, Cruisers and frigs/dessies so we could have competent gang formats ready at a moments notice.
We had a meeting among the corp CEOs recently where I once again tried to push to get fleet fit ships ready and pretty much just got the same flack on the subject. I asked " what happens if Gals show up tomorrow to take Enaluri?" Ironically enough you guys attacked and captured it the next day, so I guess we now see what happens..
I will say I was actually impressed with the numbers Caldari was able to pull out of the wood work today. I will say that was pretty cool, but I can only hope it was a wake up call where others can see benefit of better organization and making sure their pilots have ships ready to go that are useful for a gang and not just what they happen to want to fly.
We weren't out numbered or out FC'd or done in by skill point divide, we were out shipped in the fact that you guys had the ships ready to reship into that you needed to get the job done and we didn't.. |
|
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
121
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 09:15:00 -
[681] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Faction Warfare whine threads from the future:
BAN 'Ninja whoring'
FW alts in bombers are uncloaking near fights and TPing everyone to get a slice of the LP. They're stealing my LP! CCP, LP should be awarded based on damage done which ... well, about logi ... FC should decide? ... I think the whores in Crucifiers are even worse, they're ruining fights ...
EXPLOITERS awarded LP in own deaths!!
We just took out this entire gang, OK, but when we looked at the killmails we saw that everyone in this gang had applied some EWAR to each other before we engaged. So they got on each others' KM, and we got less LP for it! .... intrafleet actions ... intramilitia actions? ...
GTFO out my plex
So this guy in my militia came into the plex I was taking in a dual-prop dramiel and ran around on grid, doing nothing to help, and he got LP for it. OK, a **** thing to do, but then he did it again and again. Don't say he was trying to kite the rats, 'cause if I've got a while left on the timer, he just warps back out. ... the dramiels are tough, but people use other ships, so I brought my other-militia alt into plexes with me and we just take turns ... what?! What's wrong with that? ...
Why is it easier to contest a whole region than a single system?
So I took my slicer out (an embarrassing PvE one that you'll never see on a KB, since even minor rats can grind you down and I can't dock>repair>undock>fight when I see someone coming anyway, so why bother...) and took a minor in every single system that had one in the Metropolis and Heimatar regions. I had to run from maybe 1-2 pirates -- I didn't see a single wt out here.
And then I tried to grind down one system (phew, 1 plex down, only 149 to go!), so I took the minors, and then I needed to reship, so I have to fly all the way back ... really? You can take even a major with two T1 frigs? ****, why am I even bothering without an alt?
NERF FW CAREBEARS: the front lines should be the front lines
^^^ you see that guy who contested two entire regions by himself? That's bullshit! I was docked in Arzad the entire time he was doing that, waiting to hear that someone was trying to take a plex here ... no LP awarded for non-frontline systems ... ones next to enemy systems, duh ... what if there were no LP unless it were _really_ contested, like if the enemy tried to decontest the system ... if there were a fight in the plex ... just ban people with enemy alts! That's an exploit! ...
**** this, losing's more profitable than winning
So I joined the NPC militia corp after Inferno, and got right to getting paid to take systems -- but we'd already taken every system but, like, these horrible enemy 'home' systems. So every time I tried to take a plex by myself I just died immediately. It seemed like my system-taking options were limited to 1) join the blob, or 2) **** off. But I wanted to give FW a chance, so I started trying to defend systems. I mean, every single one of our systems is contested, and I've run into solo and small groups of wts doing that, so fighting them should be fun, right? Actually, it was! When I could get a fight, I mean; they really seemed more adverse to combat than I thought people would be in Faction Warfare - I still can't figure out why I didn't get some of those fights.
I had fun doing this for a while, but when I started to get short on isk, it suddenly hit me: the people I was fighting were making isk even as I fought them! ...
Some questions for ex-militia who've moved to NPC null.
U r so true I was forced to laugh in office ... and actually ... I have galente alt .... might be a good profession to have him in bomber following gallente blob and paint everything they shoot on our side .... hmmmm FW ***** as a profession sounds nice :)
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
760
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 09:36:00 -
[682] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:[quote=Lock out]
I'm not interested in sov warfare so I'd likely just go pie again or just start roaming in null sec for random fights.. The station locks out are kinda a deal breaker for me , but I'll at least give it a try for a short time see where it goes.
The sov warfare way of thinking is already setting in if you haven't already noticed.
Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
176
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 10:16:00 -
[683] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:1st off I will say you are a lucky **** to get that Navy Geddon out the other day in structure and the friendly carriers were totally unexpected from us. We jumped into behind you guys started shooting stuff and in comes 3 or 4 friendly carriers and we were like wtf is this.. Personally, I wasn't happy when they engaged again after allowing you guys time to set up bait & trap. I pretty much figured that was gonna go wrong.. lol
We had the counter prepared first time too, just that Tek was too drunk and grabbed 150 LO instead of 250 so he couldn't light cyno (yeah, we're pro like that)
Also, till I reached 4 km from gate I was resigned to dying. Then I jumped out with gcc with like 20 % struct left and on the other side gateguns managed to put me in 8 % struct left before I warped off . Then I had to bounce 5 min to regen half shields and when I've heard our triage is on field I started shouting at Andar that I'm coming to ***** and he needs to rep me as soon as I land, which he did . Unfortunately our tackling abilities were also sunk in alcohool.
Oh, and on a sidenote, am really lucky indeed that I got out, I have fair few ngeddons,and for that evening I picked the really pimped one (c-type enam, a-type membranes, etc)
Back on topic, the simple fact that you and I agree on something should raise a signal that things in FW are about to go terribly wrong |
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
210
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 10:35:00 -
[684] - Quote
is it true you can now only mission in hostal space, so anyone winning will be refused missions on the grounds there is no system for them to mission in?
That would be funny as **** |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
760
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 11:02:00 -
[685] - Quote
Lock out wrote:Mutnin wrote:1st off I will say you are a lucky **** to get that Navy Geddon out the other day in structure and the friendly carriers were totally unexpected from us. We jumped into behind you guys started shooting stuff and in comes 3 or 4 friendly carriers and we were like wtf is this.. Personally, I wasn't happy when they engaged again after allowing you guys time to set up bait & trap. I pretty much figured that was gonna go wrong.. lol We had the counter prepared first time too, just that Tek was too drunk and grabbed 150 LO instead of 250 so he couldn't light cyno (yeah, we're pro like that) Also, till I reached 4 km from gate I was resigned to dying. Then I jumped out with gcc with like 20 % struct left and on the other side gateguns managed to put me in 8 % struct left before I warped off . Then I had to bounce 5 min to regen half shields and when I've heard our triage is on field I started shouting at Andar that I'm coming to ***** and he needs to rep me as soon as I land, which he did . Unfortunately our tackling abilities were also sunk in alcohool. Oh, and on a sidenote, am really lucky indeed that I got out, I have fair few ngeddons,and for that evening I picked the really pimped one (c-type enam, a-type membranes, etc) Back on topic, the simple fact that you and I agree on something should raise a signal that things in FW are about to go terribly wrong
You can see there is a lot of people agreeing with each other that normally would troll the crap out of each other under different circumstances.
That might be the writing on the wall here. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
96
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 12:58:00 -
[686] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:You can see there is a lot of people agreeing with each other that normally would troll the crap out of each other under different circumstances.
That might be the writing on the wall here. Heh. We all just want a system that allows us to shoot each other in the face, beat our chests when we do well and smack each other when we fail .. CCP's solution is a system in which the optimal play-style is to avoid combat at all costs unless its blob fights.
Go figure.
But fear not, for my brain just sent a memo claiming it has the answer to all out woes: - Introduce diminishing returns and its reverse when it comes to plexing (already operating with a x1-4 modifier so put it to use) (Optional) - Delay principal FW changes until NPC, plexes and missions are 'balanced' and above is ready.
Intermediary result: - An attacker will only be able to take all systems if anally retentive as the VP required has the warzone control modifier applied. You'd have to really, really hate the enemy to submit yourself to closing 600 plexes in those last systems ... - An underdog, coming from close to zero can drop systems in 25% the time it would normally take .. the inverse of the warzone control modifier the enemy enjoys.
Final result: - The two warzones each reach an equilibrium based on total available manpower/time rather than ability to blob at the right times. - We all get to shoot each other in plexes as Godddess intended. - Snowballs will melt as excessive momentum is stopped dead in its track. - LP streams remain open for everyone as no side will ever be able to hold all space so missions and offensive plexes will always be available.
Go Team Brain!
|
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
121
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 13:03:00 -
[687] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:RougeOperator wrote:You can see there is a lot of people agreeing with each other that normally would troll the crap out of each other under different circumstances.
That might be the writing on the wall here. Heh. We all just want a system that allows us to shoot each other in the face, beat our chests when we do well and smack each other when we fail .. CCP's solution is a system in which the optimal play-style is to avoid combat at all costs unless its blob fights. Go figure. But fear not, for my brain just sent a memo claiming it has the answer to all out woes: - Introduce diminishing returns and its reverse when it comes to plexing (already operating with a x1-4 modifier so put it to use) (Optional) - Delay principal FW changes until NPC, plexes and missions are 'balanced' and above is ready. Intermediary result: - An attacker will only be able to take all systems if anally retentive as the VP required has the warzone control modifier applied. You'd have to really, really hate the enemy to submit yourself to closing 600 plexes in those last systems ... - An underdog, coming from close to zero can drop systems in 25% the time it would normally take .. the inverse of the warzone control modifier the enemy enjoys. Final result: - The two warzones each reach an equilibrium based on total available manpower/time rather than ability to blob at the right times. - We all get to shoot each other in plexes as Godddess intended. - Snowballs will melt as excessive momentum is stopped dead in its track. - LP streams remain open for everyone as no side will ever be able to hold all space so missions and offensive plexes will always be available. Go Team Brain!
nice ideas ... however chimp can press the nuke button, but cannot build the nuke ... I am afraid u asking wrong persons to think.
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
417
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 17:26:00 -
[688] - Quote
sYnc Vir wrote:is it true you can now only mission in hostal space, so anyone winning will be refused missions on the grounds there is no system for them to mission in?
That would be funny as ****
I would like to know the answer to this as well. If that is true the larger side can just leave one system next to their best agent to the enemy and farm it like crazy with no travel time.
The enemy would be able to dock their but the larger side will likely be able to switch systems at will. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
417
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 17:34:00 -
[689] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:RougeOperator wrote:You can see there is a lot of people agreeing with each other that normally would troll the crap out of each other under different circumstances.
That might be the writing on the wall here. Heh. We all just want a system that allows us to shoot each other in the face, beat our chests when we do well and smack each other when we fail .. CCP's solution is a system in which the optimal play-style is to avoid combat at all costs unless its blob fights. Go figure. But fear not, for my brain just sent a memo claiming it has the answer to all out woes: - Introduce diminishing returns and its reverse when it comes to plexing (already operating with a x1-4 modifier so put it to use) (Optional) - Delay principal FW changes until NPC, plexes and missions are 'balanced' and above is ready. Intermediary result: - An attacker will only be able to take all systems if anally retentive as the VP required has the warzone control modifier applied. You'd have to really, really hate the enemy to submit yourself to closing 600 plexes in those last systems ... - An underdog, coming from close to zero can drop systems in 25% the time it would normally take .. the inverse of the warzone control modifier the enemy enjoys. Final result: - The two warzones each reach an equilibrium based on total available manpower/time rather than ability to blob at the right times. - We all get to shoot each other in plexes as Godddess intended. - Snowballs will melt as excessive momentum is stopped dead in its track. - LP streams remain open for everyone as no side will ever be able to hold all space so missions and offensive plexes will always be available. Go Team Brain!
Why not:
1) just drop the 4x multiplier altogether. The winning side would still get up to a 20 % boost to thier lp generation from plexing pvp and missions. They could increase this a bit if they wanted. Thus the winning side would still have a big advantage on all the items shared by each faction.
2) Add more faction specific items to each lp store. Preferablly ones that were not useless like the amarr armor plates. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
97
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 17:49:00 -
[690] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:nice ideas ... however chimp can press the nuke button, but cannot build the nuke ... I am afraid u asking wrong persons to think. No comment.
Cearain wrote:Why not:... Because it does nothing to prevent snowballs and does nothing to keep the war going when a side collapses, unless of course you mean remove the modifier while still introducing a diminishing returns + inverse system ..
As for FW monopolies on new/old items .. Goddess yes. But not before missions are made challenging and the first series of iterations on LP in FW have come and gone. |
|
Cookies'n'Cream
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 18:10:00 -
[691] - Quote
Is Veshta = Hirana??
Also, what is a Shakorite?? Is this and RP thing? I'm not familiar with the lore.... |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
97
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 18:35:00 -
[692] - Quote
Aye, it is all in the name .. The Yoshida Estate has two prominent daughters.
"Shakorite" is a term I have started using after it became evident that the Matari people at large has allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the megalomaniac Tyrant Shakor and his Brutor thugs. As with most cults/sects the name of follower is taken after that of the leader to indicate to whom they are enthralled and that they have no free will.
What is RP?
Cookies'n'Cream wrote:...I'm not familiar with the lore.... Damn woman! Time to hit the books (or chronicles as the case may be) don't you think? Some good reads there. |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
35
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 19:33:00 -
[693] - Quote
Lock out wrote: Not only that, but it's a lose lose situation. We win, we have no targets left in lowsec. We lose, we get locked out of stn. IF it's a balance, lots of hours of spinning around a boring button. And once in a blue moon when stars align a dessie fight in a plex.
I mean sure, it might lead to the nice fight now and then. But how about all those times when I'll have to spin buttons for 4 hrs to decontest my home system with no one coming in those plexes to shoot at me ? A lot of ppl that came for pvp not pve are gonna drop FW, simple as. Lemme give you some **** from our forums :
"To be honest, I am reluctantly waiting to see how it goes. But if it gets to 4 hrs / day plexing just to be able to dock, FW becomes a non option."
"I've read quite a lot of people saying they are / will leave. For us it's a case of let's see how it turns out, if it ends up being just a crazy grind then it's a no brainer tbh."
"if we have to plex for hours to get the system back, people will get bored of it, unless we get fight but i doubt."
"I hope I'm wrong, but I think we might have to leave Nisuwa, leave FW if we wanna stay in Nis or plex our asses off every day to stay in FW and in Nis... "
And these quotes come from guys on (what's generally considered) the winning side atm. Can;t even imagine how the losing sides (caldari/amarr) feel about it.
They could add in all the changes except lockouts and make FW more appealing to PvP'ers.
Something tells me CCP doesn't want FW to be too much of a draw. Hence, the huge penalty for fighting on the losing side.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
418
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 19:44:00 -
[694] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Cearain wrote:Why not:... Because it does nothing to prevent snowballs and does nothing to keep the war going when a side collapses, unless of course you mean remove the modifier while still introducing a diminishing returns + inverse system .. As for FW monopolies on new/old items .. Goddess yes. But not before missions are made challenging and the first series of iterations on LP in FW have come and gone.
Yes it would tend to reduce the snowball effect if each faction had additional unique items only for that faction and there was not a 4xs multiplier (really a 16x multiplier) of cost.
For example if amarr had allot of amarr specific items (say some new ships like say a faction coercer or armor plates that were actually better than meta 4 plates) in their lp store that no other lp store had but had very few pilots on their side getting those items they would increase in value. I mean we have a few items already. However when the cost of those items is going to go up 4x its not really going to be worth it.
Add a few more faction ships and remove the 4x multiplier and I think we have a much better chance. The side with fewer pilots will be making more isk per lp.
From what hans posted I think he pointed this out to ccp. However after listening to an interview from soundwave I think he wants to see faction war snowball out of control for one side and then see if any other entities will join in. That is partly why I think many other mechanics are so accomodating for null sec alliances. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2361
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 20:02:00 -
[695] - Quote
Cearain wrote: From what hans posted I think he pointed this out to ccp. However after listening to an interview from soundwave I think he wants to see faction war snowball out of control for one side and then see if any other entities will join in.
Bingo. No real mystery about that.
And once the inevitable snowball occurs - one of two things will happen.
1.) Either entities will join in, and support the remaining militia members that haven't ragequit, and push for a giant comeback and make obscene profits along the way, cashing out all the LP they earn from PvP and offensive plexing once they push the multiplier into their favor (and this works even better if they can do it faster than the markets can price shift).
2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
253
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 21:13:00 -
[696] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:Lock out wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote: It won't be impossible for the Amarr/Caldari to fight back. Sure, it will be tough and it'll require cooperation and effort on their part, but honestly, I think it will be a good catalyst to inspire cooperation/effort on their part, an element they are sorely lacking.
It will be impossible. We decided to flip Enaluri yesterday. Caldari had their best effort that I've seen in ages, 50 guys all in one system, coming at us over and over again. We just rallied ppl, got more than 50, curbstomped them and then dreadbombed the bunker before they had the chance to run another plex to get it out of vulnerable. They are rebuilding and they can't cope with fighting against superior numbers, more experiencd pilots and better ships. So all in all they are gonna lose system after system. Not only that, but it's a lose lose situation. We win, we have no targets left in lowsec. We lose, we get locked out of stn. IF it's a balance, lots of hours of spinning around a boring button. And once in a blue moon when stars align a dessie fight in a plex. We had a meeting among the corp CEOs recently where I once again tried to push to get fleet fit ships ready and pretty much just got the same flack on the subject. I asked " what happens if Gals show up tomorrow to take Enaluri?" Ironically enough you guys attacked and captured it the next day, so I guess we now see what happens..
I wish I was a fly on the wall for that meeting. I really don't know why these guys would give you flack considering your advice is just common sense stuff. Anyone who has been in the warzone for a month can see the value in your advice.
I barely got to fight yesterday during Enaluri but alot of the GalMil guys were giving Caldari props for rallying that many people. Just imagine how much more competitive it would be if they actually had any sort of organization and fleet doctrine C'est La Eve :) Gallente Militia -áPVP Corp. Selective recruitment open. http://iamsheriff.com/eagle.html |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 21:45:00 -
[697] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: 2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.
Hey, you did all you could possibly do before backing down.
I just re-watched a video someone did to support your candidacy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_o
I threw up a bit around 4:15.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
RougeOperator
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
760
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 22:01:00 -
[698] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: 2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.
Hey, you did all you could possibly do before backing down. I just re-watched a video someone did to support your candidacy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_oI threw up a bit around 4:15.
Im a little bothered by the fact I feel that you Hans have retreated from what got you/him elected by many people.
A lot of what you are saying now feels like the opposite of what we see in that vid starting from 4:15 Hans. And what was said on your blogs.
Remember when what i was saying on voice when they were talking about what was coming on fanfest feed and how I said it was bad then and why. You said it was prob just ideas they were kicking around and most of it was just drawing board still. Well seems i was right it was not just drawing board was it.
That crystal ball.
Welcome to Null Light. Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence"-á |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
121
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 22:47:00 -
[699] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: From what hans posted I think he pointed this out to ccp. However after listening to an interview from soundwave I think he wants to see faction war snowball out of control for one side and then see if any other entities will join in. Bingo. No real mystery about that. And once the inevitable snowball occurs - one of two things will happen. 1.) Either entities will join in, and support the remaining militia members that haven't ragequit, and push for a giant comeback and make obscene profits along the way, cashing out all the LP they earn from PvP and offensive plexing once they push the multiplier into their favor (and this works even better if they can do it faster than the markets can price shift).
oh ... hello Hans our FW savor ... oh no he just entered hellhole for the nullbears and his own faction
blobfest here we comes ... Hans both options u mentioned leads to total destruction of small scale warfare. Actually last few days on caldari front are pointing to the future quite exactly.
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 00:26:00 -
[700] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: From what hans posted I think he pointed this out to ccp. However after listening to an interview from soundwave I think he wants to see faction war snowball out of control for one side and then see if any other entities will join in. Bingo. No real mystery about that. And once the inevitable snowball occurs - one of two things will happen. 1.) Either entities will join in, and support the remaining militia members that haven't ragequit, and push for a giant comeback and make obscene profits along the way, cashing out all the LP they earn from PvP and offensive plexing once they push the multiplier into their favor (and this works even better if they can do it faster than the markets can price shift). oh ... hello Hans our FW savor ... oh no he just entered hellhole for the nullbears and his own faction blobfest here we comes ... Hans both options u mentioned leads to total destruction of small scale warfare. Actually last few days on caldari front are pointing to the future quite exactly. and yes this is just spit in our faces Hans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_oafter watching this .... I would tell u just step down from CSM once the patch is up ... honestly politicians in RL sometimes do this when they break their promises.
My God you and dirk (and most of IBS) are so bitter you are getting kicked from rakapas. |
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 00:51:00 -
[701] - Quote
marketjacker wrote: My God you and dirk (and most of IBS) are so bitter you are getting kicked from rakapas.
My God gets kicked from nowhere.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
185
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 01:13:00 -
[702] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.
At that point it will be far too little much to late and will still end with the situation that one side is way stronger than the other, being the other has to rebuild from scratch. This is a lose lose situation all around if it comes to this point..
The first is one of the worst game design mentalities I've even heard of.
|
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
85
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 01:30:00 -
[703] - Quote
LOL at all the rage towards Hans. Just remember CSM dont make decisions, its upto CCP to actually to listen to them...
I say lets see what happens post 22nd... For now stop whining and get on with it... As there will be MANY AWESOME FIGHTS to be had over the next 7 days! Bring on this weekend!!!! It will be a blockbuster!!!!! |
Arianna Satellizer
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 01:58:00 -
[704] - Quote
Why does always CCP project and design everything in Eve as a preparation to null sec... WHY!!!! And they said this was a sandbox game.... there goes my ENDGAME low sec experience. Tnx for ruining it. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
419
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 02:13:00 -
[705] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:Dirk Smacker wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: 2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.
Hey, you did all you could possibly do before backing down. I just re-watched a video someone did to support your candidacy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_oI threw up a bit around 4:15. Im a little bothered by the fact I feel that you Hans have retreated from what got you/him elected by many people. A lot of what you are saying now feels like the opposite of what we see in that vid starting from 4:15 Hans. .
Well I think its clear CCP' expansion is not at all in line with the ideas he ran on from 3:52 on. But it is not GÇ£hans's expansion.GÇ¥ In fact most of this was probably already done by the time he took office. I don't think we can blame him for this.
When he says leave all the empire building resource management blobs and political drama to null sec, well that is what we are getting.
Already you see someone saying "the problem" with amarr is we aren't "organized." We have multiple fcs running small gangs. This is supposedly the problem??? In other words we need to all get in one big blobby fleet. And indeed the side that does that will win with these mechanics.
The other answer we hear is that we should start recruiting more players. Yep we need bigger and bigger blobs if we want to have fun in this proposed mechanic. What happened to making the mechanics fun for roaming pvpers? The 2 end results are either a large null sec alliance comes and swings the battle, or it just ends in stagnation. Neither option sounds very good based on the ideas we had in mind when we voted hans in. I donGÇÖt think this is hansGÇÖs fault though. I just wish ccp would recognize what the people who voted for hans had in mind.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
98
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 03:08:00 -
[706] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Bingo. No real mystery about that.. what an odd way of designing a game, basing major contentious balance decisions on wishful thinking/hope rather than applying thought/common sense. House M.D. makes for an awesome TV show, endangering the life of patients (and sometimes outright killing them) in the hope of finding a 'cure' while praying that should it go sideways it will be possible to resuscitate .. but in game design? .. Hahahahahahaha .. guess all my loathing for the flip-flopper called Soundwave is justified
1. One side collapses. Remaining pilots scratch dirt to find scrubs for sustenance. Null blob comes to the rescue, farms the crap out of it and leaves post haste (ie. like every major western hemisphere military intervention/"help" the last 40 years). Only interest is ISK/LP and nothing else. Side collapses, the remaining pilots now start scratching the dirt for scrubs on a full stomach and get to pray for the next wave of big spender "foreigners" *Yay*.
2. Full-on idiocy turns out to be ... surprise ... Idiocy. FW is effectively killed off as more than half of all active/involved corps leave for pastures green (no one likes grinds). By the time the metrics irrefutably show that the patient is indeed no longer with us and Soundwave rummages around his dirty sock drawer for the Hail Mary, null has had its third and final pass making it 'acceptable', containing less grinds, more pew and can be profitable with a bit of work. If by random chance and blind luck the Hail Mary works and FW is actually fixed (18 months!) no one joins up as that which most joined up for to get away from in the first place was fixed earlier (Null).
@Hans: Our efforts to influence the CSM/process came too late, best you can do is make sure they start the resuscitation in a timely fashion. @CCP: Making life altering decisions based on die rolls is a valid way of managing ones life, but doing so where the lives of others are involved is not. Apply your grey for Goddess sake. |
Lord Azeroth
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
25
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 03:20:00 -
[707] - Quote
The pro-blob advocates, be careful what you wish for, cause you may not like the result even if you are on the winning side today.............. just saying. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
421
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 03:54:00 -
[708] - Quote
I don't think faction war will die. I just think it won't be kept alive from the same people. Now the people who keep it alive are people who play to have lots of interesting and quality pvp. After inferno it will be kept alive by people who like to blob and farm, blob and farm.
In other words people who like sov null sec will like these changes. there of course is nothing wrong with liking sov null sec. But why make faction war more of the same?
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Bingo. No real mystery about that.. what an odd way of designing a game, basing major contentious balance decisions on wishful thinking/hope rather than applying thought/common sense. House M.D. makes for an awesome TV show, endangering the life of patients (and sometimes outright killing them) in the hope of finding a 'cure' while praying that should it go sideways it will be possible to resuscitate .. but in game design? .. Hahahahahahaha .. guess all my loathing for the flip-flopper called Soundwave is justified 1. One side collapses. Remaining pilots scratch dirt to find scrubs for sustenance. Null blob comes to the rescue, farms the crap out of it and leaves post haste (ie. like every major western hemisphere military intervention/"help" the last 40 years). Only interest is ISK/LP and nothing else. Side collapses, the remaining pilots now start scratching the dirt for scrubs on a full stomach and get to pray for the next wave of big spender "foreigners" *Yay*. 2. Full-on idiocy turns out to be ... surprise ... Idiocy. FW is effectively killed off as more than half of all active/involved corps leave for pastures green (no one likes grinds). By the time the metrics irrefutably show that the patient is indeed no longer with us and Soundwave rummages around his dirty sock drawer for the Hail Mary, null has had its third and final pass making it 'acceptable', containing less grinds, more pew and can be profitable with a bit of work. If by random chance and blind luck the Hail Mary works and FW is actually fixed (18 months!) no one joins up as that which most joined up for to get away from in the first place was fixed earlier (Null). @Hans: Our efforts to influence the CSM/process came too late, best you can do is make sure they start the resuscitation in a timely fashion. @CCP: Making life altering decisions based on die rolls is a valid way of managing ones life, but doing so where the lives of others are involved is not. Apply your grey for Goddess sake.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
122
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 05:14:00 -
[709] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:LOL at all the rage towards Hans. Just remember CSM dont make decisions, its upto CCP to actually to listen to them...
I say lets see what happens post 22nd... For now stop whining and get on with it... As there will be MANY AWESOME FIGHTS to be had over the next 7 days! Bring on this weekend!!!! It will be a blockbuster!!!!!
Why? to loose ships in blobery idiocy? Who runs more numbers wins?
Sorry no need to play the nobrainer. IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free?>>>????-áPublic ch.: Basterds on vacation Hans resign from CSM! |
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 05:46:00 -
[710] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:For now stop whining and get on with it... As there will be MANY AWESOME FIGHTS to be had over the next 7 days! Bring on this weekend!!!! It will be a blockbuster!!!!!
No, there wont be.
Fortunately i'm all set now for future anyways and moved all my assets out from conquerable low-sec and have scouted a nice wormhole to jump into when FW becomes the real shite. |
|
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
236
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 05:59:00 -
[711] - Quote
Cearain wrote:RougeOperator wrote:Dirk Smacker wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: 2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.
Hey, you did all you could possibly do before backing down. I just re-watched a video someone did to support your candidacy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_oI threw up a bit around 4:15. Im a little bothered by the fact I feel that you Hans have retreated from what got you/him elected by many people. A lot of what you are saying now feels like the opposite of what we see in that vid starting from 4:15 Hans. . Well I think its clear CCP' expansion is not at all in line with the ideas he ran on from 3:52 on. But it is not GÇ£hans's expansion.GÇ¥ In fact most of this was probably already done by the time he took office. I don't think we can blame him for this. When he says leave all the empire building resource management blobs and political drama to null sec, well that is what we are getting. Already you see someone saying "the problem" with amarr is we aren't "organized." We have multiple fcs running small gangs. This is supposedly the problem??? In other words we need to all get in one big blobby fleet. And indeed the side that does that will win with these mechanics. The other answer we hear is that we should start recruiting more players. Yep we need bigger and bigger blobs if we want to have fun in this proposed mechanic. What happened to making the mechanics fun for roaming pvpers? The 2 end results are either a large null sec alliance comes and swings the battle, or it just ends in stagnation. Neither option sounds very good based on the ideas we had in mind when we voted hans in. I donGÇÖt think this is hansGÇÖs fault though. I just wish ccp would recognize what the people who voted for hans had in mind.
Well, the problem isn't necessarily the mechanics, its the people. Currently, Minmatar and Gallente are simply bigger and more numerous. There isn't anything CCP can do to change that. I don't think its fair for CCP to limit participation from the bigger side in favor of the little guy; that isn't the way CCP has historically built EVE Online.
And if they did somehow create some restriction on how many people of each militia could be in a system or in a plex at a single time, that system would get horribly abused and be hopelessly ineffective. Regardless of whatever mechanics CCP decides to throw at us, the problem is that we are simply bigger/stronger than the Amarr and likewise for the Gallente. Nothing CCP does will change that, it is up to the Amarr and Caldari themselves to a) recruit more or b) cooperate/coordinate with the #s they have better or c) do nothing, leave the warzone, and let the Minmatar/Gallente to stagnate/atrophy with no targets until the sides are once more at an equilibrium.
That is the way the warzones have always been, Inferno isn't going to change this very fundamental aspect of the war. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Grimfang Wyrmspawn
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 06:18:00 -
[712] - Quote
I think our recruiting efforts certainly aren't helped by the storyline CCP gifted the faction.
"Religious zealot slavers? Who wouldn't want to join them?" |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
185
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 06:32:00 -
[713] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote: That is the way the warzones have always been, Inferno isn't going to change this very fundamental aspect of the war.
Not but in the past it was possible for any side to fail and then always come back over time. These new mechanics will create a situation where it becomes very improbable that the losing side we have the ability to ever come back.
|
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
122
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 06:39:00 -
[714] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:Cearain wrote:RougeOperator wrote:Dirk Smacker wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: 2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.
Hey, you did all you could possibly do before backing down. I just re-watched a video someone did to support your candidacy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCggF0O8_oI threw up a bit around 4:15. Im a little bothered by the fact I feel that you Hans have retreated from what got you/him elected by many people. A lot of what you are saying now feels like the opposite of what we see in that vid starting from 4:15 Hans. . Well I think its clear CCP' expansion is not at all in line with the ideas he ran on from 3:52 on. But it is not GÇ£hans's expansion.GÇ¥ In fact most of this was probably already done by the time he took office. I don't think we can blame him for this. When he says leave all the empire building resource management blobs and political drama to null sec, well that is what we are getting. Already you see someone saying "the problem" with amarr is we aren't "organized." We have multiple fcs running small gangs. This is supposedly the problem??? In other words we need to all get in one big blobby fleet. And indeed the side that does that will win with these mechanics. The other answer we hear is that we should start recruiting more players. Yep we need bigger and bigger blobs if we want to have fun in this proposed mechanic. What happened to making the mechanics fun for roaming pvpers? The 2 end results are either a large null sec alliance comes and swings the battle, or it just ends in stagnation. Neither option sounds very good based on the ideas we had in mind when we voted hans in. I donGÇÖt think this is hansGÇÖs fault though. I just wish ccp would recognize what the people who voted for hans had in mind. Well, the problem isn't necessarily the mechanics, its the people. Currently, Minmatar and Gallente are simply bigger and more numerous. There isn't anything CCP can do to change that. I don't think its fair for CCP to limit participation from the bigger side in favor of the little guy; that isn't the way CCP has historically built EVE Online. And if they did somehow create some restriction on how many people of each militia could be in a system or in a plex at a single time, that system would get horribly abused and be hopelessly ineffective. Regardless of whatever mechanics CCP decides to throw at us, the problem is that we are simply bigger/stronger than the Amarr and likewise for the Gallente. Nothing CCP does will change that, it is up to the Amarr and Caldari themselves to a) recruit more or b) cooperate/coordinate with the #s they have better or c) do nothing, leave the warzone, and let the Minmatar/Gallente to stagnate/atrophy with no targets until the sides are once more at an equilibrium. That is the way the warzones have always been, Inferno isn't going to change this very fundamental aspect of the war. i am afraid this time u r not right ... Because we will get stuck with the state of blobery.
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free?>>>????-áPublic ch.: Basterds on vacation Hans resign from CSM! |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 06:45:00 -
[715] - Quote
As Bob Marley sang: Everythings gonna be alright.
So stop crying wimminz and wait see how it all plays out. Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 06:46:00 -
[716] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:c) do nothing, leave the warzone, and let the Minmatar/Gallente to stagnate/atrophy with no targets until the sides are once more at an equilibrium.
Because people leave enviroment where they get four times as much LP for same effort as opposition for more challenging enviroment because ultimately people want pvp and not isk farming --- CCP's train of thought.
If you believe that, I might have several decent bridges to sell...
|
Sui'Djin
Black Rise Guerilla Forces
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 07:02:00 -
[717] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Cearain wrote: From what hans posted I think he pointed this out to ccp. However after listening to an interview from soundwave I think he wants to see faction war snowball out of control for one side and then see if any other entities will join in. Bingo. No real mystery about that. And once the inevitable snowball occurs - one of two things will happen. 1.) Either entities will join in, and support the remaining militia members that haven't ragequit, and push for a giant comeback and make obscene profits along the way, cashing out all the LP they earn from PvP and offensive plexing once they push the multiplier into their favor (and this works even better if they can do it faster than the markets can price shift). 2.) The doomsday predictions will come true, and the war will stagnate, fights will decrease, and I will have demonstrated to CCP that they should have listened to me and pared back the multiplier and not gone with full station docking. Necessary adjustments would than be made to get the fights rolling again.
Sad story, but this is not your fault Hans. All those ignorants starting flame wars to you did obviously not listen to you from the very beginning. I imagine this design decision must be VERY frustrating for you, to say the least.
I don't want to be CCP Soundwave's guinea pig. I want to have the lowsec fightclub. I don't mind fighting against the odds, as long as there is a fair chance. But there obviously isn't. |
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 07:38:00 -
[718] - Quote
It will draw new FW players, it already does, sadly old FW players are leaving.
my self included, these changes make FW a full time job, untill now I ran a couple of PI stations did some anomalies and then joined up with a fleet to run plexes.
I considered the different disaplines a fun mix, current changes make that all but impossible.
I'll probably be back after I'f trained an alt on this account so I can keep my income.
Sure changes give you LP, though most of that need a s^&t load of tags and Plexes are almost never salvaged, new system will make that even harder.So jack casual still needs a side income, which will be very hard after the patch, unless you want to run FW missions.
Untill later FW Friends and Enemies |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
122
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 07:40:00 -
[719] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:It will draw new FW players, it already does, sadly old FW players are leaving.
my self included, these changes make FW a full time job, untill now I ran a couple of PI stations did some anomalies and then joined up with a fleet to run plexes.
I considered the different disaplines a fun mix, current changes make that all but impossible.
I'll probably be back after I'f trained an alt on this account so I can keep my income.
Sure changes give you LP, though most of that need a s^&t load of tags and Plexes are almost never salvaged, new system will make that even harder.So jack casual still needs a side income, which will be very hard after the patch, unless you want to run FW missions.
Untill later FW Friends and Enemies
I am afraid new people are not comming ... only attention of some "roll over them for lulz" alliance.
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free?>>>????-áPublic ch.: Basterds on vacation Hans resign from CSM! |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
236
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 07:59:00 -
[720] - Quote
Joanna Ramirez wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote:c) do nothing, leave the warzone, and let the Minmatar/Gallente to stagnate/atrophy with no targets until the sides are once more at an equilibrium. Because people leave enviroment where they get four times as much LP for same effort as opposition for more challenging enviroment because ultimately people want pvp and not isk farming --- CCP's train of thought. If you believe that, I might have several decent bridges to sell...
Hmm, you have a point. I don't think the state of the warzone (which side is winning or not) should affect the ISK/LP ratio. Makes it about the ISK, not about the action. Hopefully CCP changes this down the road. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
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Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
182
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 08:12:00 -
[721] - Quote
Oh my35+ pages and some times 22 seconds between post. Well I would like to inject a few things in to the debate that will not get to play out on Sisi.
1) The new FW front page, if Iterated(and works) becomes arguably the most powerful Intel tool in game. that's a huge change in how we will play, the unwashed masses will start showing up weather us organised groups like it or not. As every one gets to know were the action is.
2) Is it just me or dose LP rewards for plexing seem to favor roaming around to all the minors you can do offensively in a faction frigg? Minors pay 1k a min in LP VS. 30k average lp per mission but with travel time, how many missions you can easily grab, and ship requirements factored in its got to very close.
3) So there adding in datacores, and raising base price(to be adjusted buy territory control) this is going to throw a huge monkey wrench in to how we spend LP. Its going to have to be centric on our exclusive items or territory control to discount the other things down BUT latter hugely affects non-FW lp people (EX- so Caldari takes all of blackrise, who can sell a Navy raven and turn a profit vs. there buying power) I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec. Were is the FW exclusive frigate sized ship? I see the cruiser and battle ship.......... |
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 09:35:00 -
[722] - Quote
Cearain wrote:I donGÇÖt think this is hansGÇÖs fault though. I just wish ccp would recognize what the people who voted for hans had in mind.
Doubtful. Hans is basicly laughing at feeble Amarr/Caldari now in his blog, somehow living in fantasy land that total number of active pvp pilots (not mission w..res) is anywhere near balanced. And he says "Recruit more you "n00blets". Yeah, great recruiting pitch "Enemy has more numbers and makes 4-16 times for isk than us for same effort, but you want to join us and not them because....because...um....can't figure a reason really".
Distrust breeds hatred, hatred fuels war, and war brings fights. CCPGÇÖs expansion is already working as intended = Hans.
Yes, we distrust and hate our enemy (at least everyone should, otherwise why are you playing eve) but that does not mean we are not rational human beings. This in turn causes us to make sure that said sub-human filth (= enemy, like Hans) cannot gank us and get the abovementioned isk boost since there are other options to go along. And we can still keep hating the enemy.
Fortunately I uncovered a massive f...k up in in the upcoming mechanics in SiSi which I will probably use to my advantage until the sun goes out. And i'm not about to report it either since last one only resulted in Caldari getting the blame and Gallente getting away scott-free. |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
122
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 09:40:00 -
[723] - Quote
Joanna Ramirez wrote:Cearain wrote:I donGÇÖt think this is hansGÇÖs fault though. I just wish ccp would recognize what the people who voted for hans had in mind. Doubtful. Hans is basicly laughing at feeble Amarr/Caldari now in his blog, somehow living in fantasy land that total number of active pvp pilots (not mission w..res) is anywhere near balanced. And he says "Recruit more you "n00blets". Yeah, great recruiting pitch "Enemy has more numbers and makes 4-16 times for isk than us for same effort, but you want to join us and not them because....because...um....can't figure a reason really". Distrust breeds hatred, hatred fuels war, and war brings fights. CCPGÇÖs expansion is already working as intended. = Hans. Yes, we distrust and hate our enemy (at least everyone should, otherwise why are you playing eve) but that does not mean we are not rational human beings. This in turn causes us to make sure that said sub-human filth (= enemy, like Hans) cannot gank us and get the abovementioned isk boost since there are other options to go along.
Spies? Role Players? Fools .....
.... oh yeah
well happy with my band of bitter vets .... IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free?>>>????-áPublic ch.: Basterds on vacation Hans resign from CSM! |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 11:25:00 -
[724] - Quote
Sui'Djin wrote: Sad story, but this is not your fault Hans. All those ignorants starting flame wars to you did obviously not listen to you from the very beginning. I imagine this design decision must be VERY frustrating for you, to say the least.
It wasn't Chiang Kai-shek's fault Japan invaded China.
It wasn't the fault of whoever the Polish leader was back that the Germans and Russians invaded his country.
The reason Chiang Kai-shek is a historical name and whoever was running Poland is not is Chiang Kai-shek made so much noise about how jacked up the occupation was, he eventually got the help. Whoever represented the Poles did not and they faced occupation until the Cold War ended, and the Solidarity Movement (which put up a big stink) helped end it.
We want Hans to be more like Chiang Kai-shek and less like the appeasers who time forgot.
BTW, Chiang Kai-shek had a smokin wife with tig ol bitties. More motivation for Hans.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 11:29:00 -
[725] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:The reason Chiang Kai-shek is a historical name and whoever was running Poland is not is Chiang Kai-shek made so much noise about how jacked up the occupation was, he eventually got the help.
In the end Chiang still had his own island resort though. What did Poland have except ruined cities and ethnic population hated in equal measure by the Germans and Russians...
|
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 11:41:00 -
[726] - Quote
Joanna Ramirez wrote: In the end Chiang still had his own island resort though.
More motivation for Hans. Who wouldn't want one of them?
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 12:15:00 -
[727] - Quote
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:1) The new FW front page, if Iterated(and works) becomes arguably the most powerful Intel tool in game. that's a huge change in how we will play, the unwashed masses will start showing up weather us organised groups like it or not. As every one gets to know were the action is... Mind elaborating on that? Are they changing what is shown in the tabs? Judging by the screenshot used in the blog all they have done is add a tab containing a great big warning label and the other tabs are called same as current.
PS: Anything has huge potential if iterated upon, but the devil is in the details. On paper the current map is the most powerul tool until one realises that a system can go from uncontested to vulnerable in the time it takes for the damn thing to register it .. just sayin'
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Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
182
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 14:01:00 -
[728] - Quote
Its the map, but just your war zone+activity based on plexing and combat. Its more accessible than the map. Im posting from my lap top now one i get home ill list all it dose here for debate. I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec. Were is the FW exclusive frigate sized ship? I see the cruiser and battle ship.......... |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2361
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 14:55:00 -
[729] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote: PS: Anything has huge potential if iterated upon, but the devil is in the details. On paper the current map is the most powerul tool until one realises that a system can go from uncontested to vulnerable in the time it takes for the damn thing to register it .. just sayin'
The new UI is much more useful than the previous militia tabs (LOL @ "news" from two years ago) and is just a framework for more features to be added in the subsequent inferno releases. So yes, there will certainly be iterations upon it. Right now there is information regarding warzone control and victory points, as well as a tab that has information for new players on "how to do" Faction Warfare, more or less.
That one made me especially happy, since I had previously spoken about new player experience and the fact that the FW UI had great potential for empowering new recruits by showing them where to go and what to do. My long-term goal is to refine this such that we can permanently end the pattern of new players sitting around in militia chat x-ing up for fleets, and give them enough tools that they can find the action on their own, and meet friends and form relationships on the battlefield instead of in stations. The new UI is a great step in that direction.
Also, the slider bar that demonstrates the percentage of contestment is pretty cool, its a concept players have been putting to use for some time now through a custom app, and now is available to EVERY faction warfare pilot through the new UI. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Princess Nexxala
The Rock Hard Roosters Villore Accords
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 15:14:00 -
[730] - Quote
Over use of ellipses makes you awesome btw....
Hidden Snake wrote: Spies? Role Players? Fools .....
.... oh yeah
well happy with my band of bitter vets ....
Actually I think that addition is going to help a lot more then some people probably think. I see a lot of new blood in FW that want to help but don't know how and quit after a few days of no one willing to fill them in on what to do.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
That one made me especially happy, since I had previously spoken about new player experience and the fact that the FW UI had great potential for empowering new recruits by showing them where to go and what to do. My long-term goal is to refine this such that we can permanently end the pattern of new players sitting around in militia chat x-ing up for fleets, and give them enough tools that they can find the action on their own, and meet friends and form relationships on the battlefield instead of in stations. The new UI is a great step in that direction.
Is sexy time? |
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2361
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 15:59:00 -
[731] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote: @Hans: Our efforts to influence the CSM/process came too late, best you can do is make sure they start the resuscitation in a timely fashion.
I was pretty clear during the campaign that much of the expansion may very well be set in stone by the time I took office, in fact many brought this up repeatedly, asking me why I was running even though my election might be GÇ£too lateGÇ¥ to do much about Inferno. The reason I ran has always been to make sure that no matter what was implemented, there was an experienced FW participant on the CSM to help with iterating upon whatever CCP had come up with. IGÇÖll be doing this regardless of whether anyone else on the forum wants me to or believes IGÇÖm doing it, thatGÇÖs just my responsibility.
I knew full well my influence on the first pass of changes would be limited, and I knew full well that weGÇÖd have consequences (good and bad) that would need monitoring and adjustment. I knew full well that people would blame me for everything that they didnGÇÖt like in Inferno, whether or not it was my fault. I knew full well that sometimes CCP can be stubborn, and thatGÇÖs why I made a pointed effort to go over the worst-case scenarios everyoneGÇÖs been describing in this thread, IGÇÖd done so long before any of you ever saw anything on SiSi.
All that to say, regardless of the GÇ£FW is ******, theyGÇÖve broken it foreverGÇ¥ attitudes floating around these threads (which get more and more useless by the day GÇô I cannot even believe the ridiculous Chiang Kai-shek banter, are you guys really trying to stay relevant here?) IGÇÖm going to keep doing what IGÇÖve been doing, and what I was elected to do. The reason i'm not in panic mode is that the dedicated team CCP's tasked on to FW up until the next expansion means I will have more opportunity to help you all get your concerns addressed than any of us could have ever imagined even during the rosy optimism of campaign season. It's just not going to happen now, deadlines are deadlines.
Veshta Yoshida wrote: @CCP: Making life altering decisions based on die rolls is a valid way of managing ones life, but doing so where the lives of others are involved is not. Apply your grey for Goddess sake.
Not sure if serious. First off, I hope to god / goddess/whatever that you donGÇÖt actually believe that rolling dice is a valid way of managing oneGÇÖs life.
Secondly, the GÇ£lives are at stakeGÇ¥ language is way overblown and isnGÇÖt going to get you anywhere with the developers. The more extreme peopleGÇÖs postings become, whether theyGÇÖre treating this like a civil rights issue or a matter of GÇ£managing livesGÇ¥, the less CCPGÇÖs going to take feedback from those individuals seriously, if theyGÇÖre even still looking at this thread by now. Now some of you are here just to vent at me and call me names, thatGÇÖs totally fine. Some just want to extend their role play into the forums GÇô thatGÇÖs totally fine too, but thereGÇÖs a separate forum for that, it has nothing to do with the CSM.
For those here that are trying to actually accomplish something in terms of sharing feedback to CCP (and I know many of you are) GÇô I just want to make sure everyone is clear that the **** talking and role playing are completely counterproductive and reflect quite poorly on the community as a whole.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
186
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 16:14:00 -
[732] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:
I wish I was a fly on the wall for that meeting. I really don't know why these guys would give you flack considering your advice is just common sense stuff. Anyone who has been in the warzone for a month can see the value in your advice.
I barely got to fight yesterday during Enaluri but alot of the GalMil guys were giving Caldari props for rallying that many people. Just imagine how much more competitive it would be if they actually had any sort of organization and fleet doctrine
Well you have never tried to work with other corps with-in Caldari Militia.. Anything that might sound like common sense to anyone outside Caldari Militia just falls on death ears to those inside.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
422
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 16:50:00 -
[733] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote: Well, the problem isn't necessarily the mechanics, its the people. Currently, Minmatar and Gallente are simply bigger and more numerous. There isn't anything CCP can do to change that. I don't think its fair for CCP to limit participation from the bigger side in favor of the little guy; that isn't the way CCP has historically built EVE Online.
And if they did somehow create some restriction on how many people of each militia could be in a system or in a plex at a single time, that system would get horribly abused and be hopelessly ineffective. Regardless of whatever mechanics CCP decides to throw at us, the problem is that we are simply bigger/stronger than the Amarr and likewise for the Gallente. Nothing CCP does will change that, it is up to the Amarr and Caldari themselves to a) recruit more or b) cooperate/coordinate with the #s they have better or c) do nothing, leave the warzone, and let the Minmatar/Gallente to stagnate/atrophy with no targets until the sides are once more at an equilibrium.
That is the way the warzones have always been, Inferno isn't going to change this very fundamental aspect of the war.
First no one is suggesting limitting the number of people in a system or plex.
However when ccp implements mechanics that promote blobbing that is a problem. For example no one being able to dock will severely limit the number of different systems the losing side can hit at at the same time. (thereby splitting up the blob) Hence the effectiveness of having a blob is amplified. This is the sort of pro null sec mechanic that is a big part of the new system. Do you think limitting where people can base out of hurts blobbing?
This and other reasons how this will lead to more blob warfare have been explained, so I won't go through them again - unless you missed them.
Your solutions:
A) recruit more. Why not just say get your own blob? I am not interested in the politics of recruiting and "empire building". I wanted to be in a "fight club." What happened to those ideals?
Also note what damarr said. Recruiting for the losing side is pretty hard to do if you have a rational person. The only way you will be able to turn the tide is if you can get some sort of large alliance on your side. And well that again will just make this more like null sec.
B) I really don't know what do you mean by "cooperate/coodinate" better? Do you mean all form into the same big blobby fleet instead of having numerous small gangs? If I wanted to join a blob I would be in null sec already.
C) Why is it so wrong to express our thoughts on the forums to let ccp and csm know what we think?
The war zone is not going to be the same as it has always been. Its going to change due to the mechanics ccp is putting into the game. For people who like sov null sec and big blobby fights it will be better. I am happy for them. But I also say to them why not just leave that in null sec and give people who like more frequent less blobby pvp a single mechnanic. Just one.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 16:55:00 -
[734] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:...The new UI is much more useful than the previous militia tabs ... So the 'new' interface is the old interface with an added "FW for Dummies" entry .. but with possibility of snazzy stuff sometime SoonGäó (pretty much what they said about the current interface by the way), so as I expected..
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:..It's just not going to happen now, deadlines are deadlines.. They have postponed or outright axed plenty of things in the past when common sense started slapping them around .. this new concept of pouring **** into the game with intent to see what sticks and then iterate on that is beyond idiotic. Who the hell makes mechanics designed to specifically to make 5-10k people lose interest in the product (CCP SW wants militias to collapse).
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Not sure if serious. First off, I hope to god / goddess/whatever that you donGÇÖt actually believe that rolling dice is a valid way of managing oneGÇÖs life. Why not, beats the crap out of many of the alternative management ideas we see around us in the world today, at least a die roll is not selling an unattainable goal or some such ..
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: ...Some just want to extend their role play into the forums GÇô thatGÇÖs totally fine too, but thereGÇÖs a separate forum for that, it has nothing to do with the CSM. Hate to say it luv, but neither is this a place for CSM. This is Warfare&Tactics, the COAD for the unaligned if you will. My roleplay is MORE at home here than anything CSM related .. just sayin'
Either way, CCP stopped reading FW threads that does not call them out on blatant blunders ages ago .. so wouldn't worry about them not reading this. If they did read them then surely we would have had some indication that they were even aware they launched this thing called Factional Warfare .. and it has been almost three years with nary a mention of anything FW related except for a few bugs they managed to create when fixing something else entirely. This latest "fix" is about as positive that proof can get that they have no clue about FW and stopped reading a long time ago as it does nothing to actually promote the war or foster the ever elusive "Good Fight" .. just the fact they have openly said that FW will now be used specifically as a testbed for future null changes ..
PS: RP in FW context now reflects badly on the community as a whole, does it? *insert image of octo-facedesk*
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
213
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 17:23:00 -
[735] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
However when ccp implements mechanics that promote blobbing that is a problem. For example no one being able to dock will severely limit the number of different systems the losing side can hit at at the same time. (thereby splitting up the blob) Hence the effectiveness of having a blob is amplified. This is the sort of pro null sec mechanic that is a big part of the new system. Do you think limitting where people can base out of hurts blobbing?
This and other reasons how this will lead to more blob warfare have been explained, so I won't go through them again - unless you missed them.
There will always be small gang fights off the main pipes. If you're after small fights, then roam away from the front lines and the home systems of various FW alliances/corps. Make a base in a non-FW system that's close to the action: Gallente/Caldari low sec for Minmatar/Amarr theater. Gallente low sec or even Syndicate for Gallente space. Mara/Karja for Caldari space. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
186
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 17:59:00 -
[736] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:
However when ccp implements mechanics that promote blobbing that is a problem. For example no one being able to dock will severely limit the number of different systems the losing side can hit at at the same time. (thereby splitting up the blob) Hence the effectiveness of having a blob is amplified. This is the sort of pro null sec mechanic that is a big part of the new system. Do you think limitting where people can base out of hurts blobbing?
This and other reasons how this will lead to more blob warfare have been explained, so I won't go through them again - unless you missed them.
There will always be small gang fights off the main pipes. If you're after small fights, then roam away from the front lines and the home systems of various FW alliances/corps. Make a base in a non-FW system that's close to the action: Gallente/Caldari low sec for Minmatar/Amarr theater. Gallente low sec or even Syndicate for Gallente space. Mara/Karja for Caldari space.
There really isn't any small gang "fights" in FW.. There is small gank "ganks" and small gangs getting ganked. Sure you can go into a plex to fight 2 or 3 frigs, dessies or cruisers but any sort of small gang "fight" is very few and extremely far between.
Pretending you are doing "small gang" when it's 3 or 4 guys on a KM but 30 in local on your side to come to your beck and call soon as you know you will get beat is not small gang fighting.
There is zero opportunity for getting these so called small gang fights out of Gal Militia, because you guys rarely if ever go out side of your easy blob zones where back up is 1 jump away. Anytime a corp like mine for example takes out 8 to 10 BC's the moment we show up on radar is the only time you guys ever come into the back systems and then it's only with 2 times what we could possibly fight.
This leaves us with ganking random targets of opportunity and not being able to give any better fight than what you guys end up giving us. I did get a kick the other night when we killed a Gal BC on a plex gate that had pretty much equal numbers to us with him but they all ran then accused us of blobbing. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
422
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 18:08:00 -
[737] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:
However when ccp implements mechanics that promote blobbing that is a problem. For example no one being able to dock will severely limit the number of different systems the losing side can hit at at the same time. (thereby splitting up the blob) Hence the effectiveness of having a blob is amplified. This is the sort of pro null sec mechanic that is a big part of the new system. Do you think limitting where people can base out of hurts blobbing?
This and other reasons how this will lead to more blob warfare have been explained, so I won't go through them again - unless you missed them.
There will always be small gang fights off the main pipes. If you're after small fights, then roam away from the front lines and the home systems of various FW alliances/corps. Make a base in a non-FW system that's close to the action: Gallente/Caldari low sec for Minmatar/Amarr theater. Gallente low sec or even Syndicate for Gallente space. Mara/Karja for Caldari space.
Its not a matter of can or can't find small gang pvp. Its a matter of whether this makes it easier or harder to find. Not having ships in the war zone to ship up or down in, makes it harder. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
422
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 18:14:00 -
[738] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:
However when ccp implements mechanics that promote blobbing that is a problem. For example no one being able to dock will severely limit the number of different systems the losing side can hit at at the same time. (thereby splitting up the blob) Hence the effectiveness of having a blob is amplified. This is the sort of pro null sec mechanic that is a big part of the new system. Do you think limitting where people can base out of hurts blobbing?
This and other reasons how this will lead to more blob warfare have been explained, so I won't go through them again - unless you missed them.
There will always be small gang fights off the main pipes. If you're after small fights, then roam away from the front lines and the home systems of various FW alliances/corps. Make a base in a non-FW system that's close to the action: Gallente/Caldari low sec for Minmatar/Amarr theater. Gallente low sec or even Syndicate for Gallente space. Mara/Karja for Caldari space. There really isn't any small gang "fights" in FW.. There is small gank "ganks" and small gangs getting ganked. Sure you can go into a plex to fight 2 or 3 frigs, dessies or cruisers but any sort of small gang "fight" is very few and extremely far between. Pretending you are doing "small gang" when it's 3 or 4 guys on a KM but 30 in local on your side to come to your beck and call soon as you know you will get beat is not small gang fighting. There is zero opportunity for getting these so called small gang fights out of Gal Militia, because you guys rarely if ever go out side of your easy blob zones where back up is 1 jump away. Anytime a corp like mine for example takes out 8 to 10 BC's the moment we show up on radar is the only time you guys ever come into the back systems and then it's only with 2 times what we could possibly fight. This leaves us with ganking random targets of opportunity and not being able to give any better fight than what you guys end up giving us. I did get a kick the other night when we killed a Gal BC on a plex gate that had pretty much equal numbers to us with him but they all ran then accused us of blobbing.
Once you increase the numbers in your fleet above what would give a single battleship a good fight the chances of finding another fleet that is comparable gets less likely. That is why IMO solo is best way to get frequent good fights.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
102
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 18:15:00 -
[739] - Quote
By the way, give input in the official SoonGäó threads"
FW: rebalancing NPCs and you.
FW: I-hub and system upgrades |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2361
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 18:25:00 -
[740] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:PS: RP in FW context now reflects badly on the community as a whole, does it? *insert image of octo-facedesk*
No, you're taking what I said out of context. Obviously I have no issue with role play in Faction Warfare, I'm specifically referring to the mixing of role play with complaints directed at either CCP or the CSM regarding changes game mechanics. CCP does not care who's winning or losing the war, I'm saying players who want to be relevant when it comes to providing effective feedback on an issue need to be able to know when to separate one from the other. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2362
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 19:38:00 -
[741] - Quote
Yes, thanks for reminding everyone Veshta! This is a *GREAT* place to be putting concrete feedback about what you guys want to see, and I'm glad that both the NPC rebalancing project is "out of the closet" as well as the fact that the developers are proving that they're more than willing to tweak the system as needed, including addressing full lockout if need be. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 05:16:00 -
[742] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Mike Whiite wrote:It will draw new FW players, it already does, sadly old FW players are leaving.
my self included, these changes make FW a full time job, untill now I ran a couple of PI stations did some anomalies and then joined up with a fleet to run plexes.
I considered the different disaplines a fun mix, current changes make that all but impossible.
I'll probably be back after I'f trained an alt on this account so I can keep my income.
Sure changes give you LP, though most of that need a s^&t load of tags and Plexes are almost never salvaged, new system will make that even harder.So jack casual still needs a side income, which will be very hard after the patch, unless you want to run FW missions.
Untill later FW Friends and Enemies I am afraid new people are not comming ... only attention of some "roll over them for lulz" alliance.
LOLs! I'm getting 20+ convos per week (for the last 3 weeks) about joining Militia... I would suggest to start recruiting... ;) |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 05:24:00 -
[743] - Quote
Just to add... Many of the people that have joined so far have ground their rep from -5.0 with the appropriate faction to +0.5 to get in... Hate to say it but there are plenty of peeps interested in these new changes. Doomsdayers just need to take a step back... Or Register for the Apocolypse Afterparty on facebook... One of the 2. :P
As Mike said, the future of the Militia's will be written by the old leaders that stick around and the new people that come... And there are plenty of those new players... |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
214
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 11:21:00 -
[744] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Just to add... Many of the people that have joined so far have ground their rep from -5.0 with the appropriate faction to +0.5 to get in... Hate to say it but there are plenty of peeps interested in these new changes. Doomsdayers just need to take a step back... Or Register for the Apocolypse Afterparty on facebook... One of the 2. :P
As Mike said, the future of the Militia's will be written by the old leaders that stick around and the new people that come... And there are plenty of those new players... I keep hearing things like "Plex farming" from everybody I talk to. Getting a bit concerned, tbh. Fearing massive amounts of offensive plexing in far off systems that don't matter, no defensive plexing, no fights since it will be more efficient to go for isk instead. We'll see what happens soon enough.
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BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
50
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 11:36:00 -
[745] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Andiedeath wrote:Just to add... Many of the people that have joined so far have ground their rep from -5.0 with the appropriate faction to +0.5 to get in... Hate to say it but there are plenty of peeps interested in these new changes. Doomsdayers just need to take a step back... Or Register for the Apocolypse Afterparty on facebook... One of the 2. :P
As Mike said, the future of the Militia's will be written by the old leaders that stick around and the new people that come... And there are plenty of those new players... I keep hearing things like "Plex farming" from everybody I talk to. Getting a bit concerned, tbh. Fearing massive amounts of offensive plexing in far off systems that don't matter, no defensive plexing, no fights since it will be more efficient to go for isk instead. We'll see what happens soon enough.
But now you have a better option to prevent them from making isk...kick them out of the plex Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
50
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 11:44:00 -
[746] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:I keep hearing things like "Plex farming" from everybody I talk to. Getting a bit concerned, tbh. Fearing massive amounts of offensive plexing in far off systems that don't matter, no defensive plexing, no fights since it will be more efficient to go for isk instead. We'll see what happens soon enough.
*ahem*. C'mon now, no head starts on it now. Wait for Inferno and a solid anecdote before you make the thread. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
108
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 13:12:00 -
[747] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Just to add... Many of the people that have joined so far have ground their rep from -5.0 with the appropriate faction to +0.5 to get in... Hate to say it but there are plenty of peeps interested in these new changes. Doomsdayers just need to take a step back... Or Register for the Apocolypse Afterparty on facebook... One of the 2. :P
As Mike said, the future of the Militia's will be written by the old leaders that stick around and the new people that come... And there are plenty of those new players... Problem is that if you are right and the militias all get a massive surge of active pilots due to the new farm-friendly mechanics then the FW we have bled for and moaned about the past 3 years ceases to exist .. hell it will do so even without a surge due to the farms necessitating blobs to keep them pristine.
We are already close to having zero solo/small-gang fights these days .. in the years after it kicked off, majority of fights was <10 man per side with big romps on weekends only (almost) .. add your hundreds on all sides and no fight will be with less than 50 per side, lockouts take care of that as offense will always aim for superiority from the start due to not being able to reship.
I seriously miss the days when I could take a Punisher or Nomen out and fight 1-3 people in contests of skill and determination over the right to irrelevant VP .. "GF"'s were abundant then. Now you need to check Titan's for people waiting to drop you, keep a looooong list of all the enemy neutral boosters/scouts and then hope to find an enemy that doesn't outnumber you 4:1.
What I and most others have lobbied for since 2010 (current trend started back then) is mechanics that encouraged staying small and challenged the individual on an hourly/daily basis .. problem of course is that CCP didn't read anything FW related until last December onwards and at that point in time all people could talk about was how poor they were (FW LP devalued in preceeding year) and wouldn't it be great if there was pay involved and some effect of taking space ..
FW truly held promise beyond anything CCP has released since I started playing; Small scale fighting, ideal RP/PF/Lore platform .. purpose. What it is about to become is a blobby farm fest with almost no redeeming features .. even the once :awesome: size restriction on plexes has been killed of by the new pirate/navy hulls and T3 boosters.
R.I.P Factional Warfare. Thank you for teaching me which is the pointy end.
PS: How is that for Doom Calling? Do I win something!!!! |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
116
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 13:43:00 -
[748] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Andiedeath wrote:Just to add... Many of the people that have joined so far have ground their rep from -5.0 with the appropriate faction to +0.5 to get in... Hate to say it but there are plenty of peeps interested in these new changes. Doomsdayers just need to take a step back... Or Register for the Apocolypse Afterparty on facebook... One of the 2. :P
As Mike said, the future of the Militia's will be written by the old leaders that stick around and the new people that come... And there are plenty of those new players... Problem is that if you are right and the militias all get a massive surge of active pilots due to the new farm-friendly mechanics then the FW we have bled for and moaned about the past 3 years ceases to exist .. hell it will do so even without a surge due to the farms necessitating blobs to keep them pristine. We are already close to having zero solo/small-gang fights these days .. in the years after it kicked off, majority of fights was <10 man per side with big romps on weekends only (almost) .. add your hundreds on all sides and no fight will be with less than 50 per side, lockouts take care of that as offense will always aim for superiority from the start due to not being able to reship. I seriously miss the days when I could take a Punisher or Nomen out and fight 1-3 people in contests of skill and determination over the right to irrelevant VP .. "GF"'s were abundant then. Now you need to check Titan's for people waiting to drop you, keep a looooong list of all the enemy neutral boosters/scouts and then hope to find an enemy that doesn't outnumber you 4:1. What I and most others have lobbied for since 2010 (current trend started back then) is mechanics that encouraged staying small and challenged the individual on an hourly/daily basis .. problem of course is that CCP didn't read anything FW related until last December onwards and at that point in time all people could talk about was how poor they were (FW LP devalued in preceeding year) and wouldn't it be great if there was pay involved and some effect of taking space .. FW truly held promise beyond anything CCP has released since I started playing; Small scale fighting, ideal RP/PF/Lore platform .. purpose. What it is about to become is a blobby farm fest with almost no redeeming features .. even the once :awesome: size restriction on plexes has been killed of by the new pirate/navy hulls and T3 boosters. R.I.P Factional Warfare. Thank you for teaching me which is the pointy end. PS: How is that for Doom Calling? Do I win something!!!!
They actually did a good thing with the Crucible plex changes. It increased small gang a lot. I think they need to tweak capture times down to 3x current, but we will see. |
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
178
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 14:22:00 -
[749] - Quote
Hrett wrote:
They actually did a good thing with the Crucible plex changes. It increased small gang a lot. I think they need to tweak capture times down to 3x current, but we will see.
Uhmm .. more times spinning buttons ? Three times more ?
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 14:38:00 -
[750] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Andiedeath wrote:Just to add... Many of the people that have joined so far have ground their rep from -5.0 with the appropriate faction to +0.5 to get in... Hate to say it but there are plenty of peeps interested in these new changes. Doomsdayers just need to take a step back... Or Register for the Apocolypse Afterparty on facebook... One of the 2. :P
As Mike said, the future of the Militia's will be written by the old leaders that stick around and the new people that come... And there are plenty of those new players... I keep hearing things like "Plex farming" from everybody I talk to. Getting a bit concerned, tbh. Fearing massive amounts of offensive plexing in far off systems that don't matter, no defensive plexing, no fights since it will be more efficient to go for isk instead. We'll see what happens soon enough.
Well I think a big part of the question is how much of a part will the "lp upgrades" play in the 16x multiplier. If by you doing a plex in my system I lose the lp I put into it and therefore may have to pay 2xs as much in the lp store we may see these offensive plexes being defended.
The problem is CCP has not spelled out how much the lp upgrades really count toward the 16x multiplier.
Now lets say minmatar have 50 systems. If the 16x multiplier is more dependant on the numer of systems you have sov in and not very dependant on how much lp is invested in those systems then they will not upgrade many of those systems. Because the updrades themselves are fairly worthless. This will mean that the minmatar will not uprade those systems and therefore will not really be losing anything if I go and plex them. Hence there won't be much fighting until the actual system is in jeopardy of flipping and then it can be addressed 35 hours later.
From the amarr side I will have no additional incentive to plex in a system that was upgraded if the amount of isk invested is not the main driving force in determining the 16x multiplier. Therefore I were a greedy carebear I will go ahead and get my lp from a system that is not upgraded and unlikely to get a pvp response because I am not taking lp from them.
However if the lp upgrades play a very very large role in the 16x multiplier both sides will have a bigger incentive to focus their plexing on those systems and fight for those systems.
I make this point here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1305327#post1305327 and in the next post.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 14:42:00 -
[751] - Quote
Lock out wrote:Hrett wrote:
They actually did a good thing with the Crucible plex changes. It increased small gang a lot. I think they need to tweak capture times down to 3x current, but we will see.
Uhmm .. more times spinning buttons ? Three times more ?
Inferno is going to require 5xs the button spinning to flip a system. Haven't you heard the advertisement "Faction war now with 5xs the button spinning"
Hrett thinks 3xs the button spinning is plenty. I think 1/6 the button spinning is plenty.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
124
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 14:48:00 -
[752] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Lock out wrote:Hrett wrote:
They actually did a good thing with the Crucible plex changes. It increased small gang a lot. I think they need to tweak capture times down to 3x current, but we will see.
Uhmm .. more times spinning buttons ? Three times more ? Inferno is going to require 5xs the button spinning to flip a system. Haven't you heard the advertisement "Faction war now with 5xs the button spinning" Hrett thinks 3xs the button spinning is plenty. I think 1/6 the button spinning is plenty.
nanofited dramiel spins faster BTW ..... can I flip system by spining my ships in hangar? IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free?>>>????-áPublic ch.: Basterds on vacation Hans resign from CSM! |
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
178
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 14:48:00 -
[753] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Lock out wrote:Hrett wrote:
They actually did a good thing with the Crucible plex changes. It increased small gang a lot. I think they need to tweak capture times down to 3x current, but we will see.
Uhmm .. more times spinning buttons ? Three times more ? Inferno is going to require 5xs the button spinning to flip a system. Haven't you heard the advertisement "Faction war now with 5xs the button spinning" Hrett thinks 3xs the button spinning is plenty. I think 1/6 the button spinning is plenty.
I think tagging them should be enough. FOr example, how awesome would it be if it would be 10 man plexes, where a 10 man fleet will start a timer in, let's say enaluri, then have to tag 10 buttons across FW area and get back to Enaluri in an hr and tag the plex again in order to get victory points . That would actually, y'know .. .encourage roaming.
Granted, that beeing said, I haven't slept in ages so what seems like a good ideea to me atm might be in fact the dumbest thing ever.
Ninja edit : Oh, it would also take NPCs out of the equation. Also, inb4 "omg, 10 man blobs, etc." . The minors could be done solo, the mediums with 3-4 guys, etc. The main point is that it would be better if plexing would encourage ppl to roam rahter than forcing them to stay in one place. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
50
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 14:59:00 -
[754] - Quote
Lock out wrote:Cearain wrote:Lock out wrote:Hrett wrote:
They actually did a good thing with the Crucible plex changes. It increased small gang a lot. I think they need to tweak capture times down to 3x current, but we will see.
Uhmm .. more times spinning buttons ? Three times more ? Inferno is going to require 5xs the button spinning to flip a system. Haven't you heard the advertisement "Faction war now with 5xs the button spinning" Hrett thinks 3xs the button spinning is plenty. I think 1/6 the button spinning is plenty. I think tagging them should be enough. FOr example, how awesome would it be if it would be 10 man plexes, where a 10 man fleet will start a timer in, let's say enaluri, then have to tag 10 buttons across FW area and get back to Enaluri in an hr and tag the plex again in order to get victory points . That would actually, y'know .. .encourage roaming. Granted, that beeing said, I haven't slept in ages so what seems like a good ideea to me atm might be in fact the dumbest thing ever. Ninja edit : Oh, it would also take NPCs out of the equation. Also, inb4 "omg, 10 man blobs, etc." . The minors could be done solo, the mediums with 3-4 guys, etc. The main point is that it would be better if plexing would encourage ppl to roam rahter than forcing them to stay in one place.
Thats why they are scattered through the fw systems .....you cant sit in one place
Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
178
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 15:03:00 -
[755] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote: Thats why they are scattered through the fw systems .....you cant sit in one place
Well, as long as you are running the button, you are sitting in one place aren't you ? But this way if everyone was on the move all the time, think how many skirmishes would happen en route with guys or gangs running in to eachother. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 15:29:00 -
[756] - Quote
I don't mind the actual timer. I think it puts up a beacon that basically says the same thing Bohemond said: "If today they wish to fight, let them come."
I don't have any great urge to shoot red crosses while I wait.
Each side should have reason to fight for *every* plex. Not just wait 35 hours so they can prepare a blob. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
214
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 15:45:00 -
[757] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:*ahem*. C'mon now, no head starts on it now. Wait for Inferno and a solid anecdote before you make the thread. Not whining yet. Not going to chase stabbed condors 23/7 either. We have other plans for them.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 16:04:00 -
[758] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Kuehnelt wrote:*ahem*. C'mon now, no head starts on it now. Wait for Inferno and a solid anecdote before you make the thread. Not whining yet. Not going to chase stabbed condors 23/7 either. We have other plans for them.
Why not just award the lp in a plex to the pilot that: 1) was there the longest and 2) was on grid when the plex was captured
The lp could then be divided between all the people he is in fleet with who are also on grid when the plex is captured. Isn't that how vp and standings are awarded now anyway?
As far as lp for kills give the lp to the pilot who did the most damage and divide that with his fleet. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 17:04:00 -
[759] - Quote
Warhammer Online started to wear you down when you started running after every battle objective that was being capped for the xp. But there were always people trying to beat the clock because all you had to do was get there.
The good thing about EVE is the acceleration gates make it much easier to pick off the inevitable stragglers, and known leaching jerks will get ostracized.
Besides lockouts taking away tactical reshipping and pushing low sec dwellers to go neutral I'm fine with the coming changes. I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2364
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 19:09:00 -
[760] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Each side should have reason to fight for *every* plex. Not just wait 35 hours so they can prepare a blob.
They do. You either want the rewards of taking the plex and hurting the enemy, or you plex to keep yourself and your faction from suffering further. Waiting 35 hours to prepare a blob is foolishness, I don't know why you think that everyone will just sit till the last possible minute to defend themselves when your faction's pricing and such is being affected the entire time if you sit their complacently. Not to mention the price to pay if you fail in an eleventh-hour defense effort. I'd much rather engage aggressors when my system is at 5% contested instead of 95% contested, but maybe that's just me.
Besides, it doesnt take 35 hours to prepare a blob. We've been doing it every night, apparently. Classic example: Last night's engagement, which prompted much blob accusations in local. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
108
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 19:18:00 -
[761] - Quote
As I understand the idiocy coming, losing plexes in a non-upgraded system has zero impact on warzone control unless it actually flips. So as long as its a 'chaff' system you can wait for as long as you want (until flipping) before dropping a blob in there to counter with no adverse effects .. as they are still not killing of the DT shuffle, I reckon the post-DT action will be back in full force for defenders as they get no immediate benefit so will want to minimize time spent plexing.
PS: You just ran out 20 Amarr with a 50 man triple neut boosted fleet .. calling you Shakorites for blobbers in very appropriate |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2364
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 19:40:00 -
[762] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:As I understand the idiocy coming, losing plexes in a non-upgraded system has zero impact on warzone control unless it actually flips. So as long as its a 'chaff' system you can wait for as long as you want (until flipping) before dropping a blob in there to counter with no adverse effects .. as they are still not killing of the DT shuffle, I reckon the post-DT action will be back in full force for defenders as they get no immediate benefit so will want to minimize time spent plexing. PS: You just ran out 20 Amarr with a 50 man triple neut boosted fleet .. calling you Shakorites for blobbers in very appropriate
My apologies, perhaps my math was a bit off. When I counted I thought I saw 49 individual Amarr pilots involved in that batle report. But seriously, complaining about boosters? Do you understand how silly it sounds to complain about an enemy fleet using command links? Is this what Faction Warfare has come to, where we sit around asking each other politely to not use certain ships and than calling each other cheaters if we do ? This is war, Veshta.
Also, I don't give a crap about Shakor, whoever that is. He can go frak himself, I answer to Bahamut420. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 20:00:00 -
[763] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I'd much rather engage aggressors when my system is at 5% contested instead of 95% contested, but maybe that's just me.
I'd rather wait until they flipped the system so I can get some reward for plexing. (I'd probably still fight them in the plex if they were there, just not run the button).
I say this because I think people will quickly realize it's not worth putting any LP into the IHUB just to have it drained away while you sleep.
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
109
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 20:01:00 -
[764] - Quote
The linked battle report? Spanning a whopping 5+ hours with Goddess knows how many reships on either side?
Welcome to the downside of basing ones intel/arguments on killboard statistics.
Not complaining about what war is but what it has become. Two years ago, before you were wired probably, all we had to contend with was a couple of neutral logistics accompanying fleets .. now we have frigates rarely laeving safe harbour without a neutral booster in tow and fleets only engaging if stars are aligned, peaches are in blossom and everyone has their socks on right.
In short: The fun has been sucked out of FW.
PS: Shakor is your lord and master .. and he has had his subjects re-educated for less than what you just did PPS: When I said "just". I meant 20 minutes ago and was not referring to whatever links were provided. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
109
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 20:13:00 -
[765] - Quote
Quoted for Truth.
Lets take the axe grinding to a place where CCP don't get nervous ticks from reading the entries.
Also, did they throw away the feedback from the similar threads they (and we) made just prior to forums being revamped or is their short term memory just that bad? |
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 20:14:00 -
[766] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Two years ago, before you were wired probably, all we had to contend with was a couple of neutral logistics accompanying fleets .. now we have frigates rarely laeving safe harbour without a neutral booster in tow and fleets only engaging if stars are aligned, peaches are in blossom and everyone has their socks on right.
Pretty much this, not to mention all the well-known bugs which get used. Apparently minmatar have also discovered a bug where captured plex does not count towards occupancy though is otherwise closed as normal. This was new to me but rest assured I will soon find it (Like I found one which they will insert to game on 23rd)
Isn't it grand that biggest tactics in system occupancy revolve around alts, bugs and rampant meta-gaming
|
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
179
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 05:04:00 -
[767] - Quote
Joanna Ramirez wrote:Veshta Yoshida wrote:Two years ago, before you were wired probably, all we had to contend with was a couple of neutral logistics accompanying fleets .. now we have frigates rarely laeving safe harbour without a neutral booster in tow and fleets only engaging if stars are aligned, peaches are in blossom and everyone has their socks on right. Pretty much this, not to mention all the well-known bugs which get used. Apparently minmatar have also discovered a bug where captured plex does not count towards occupancy though is otherwise closed as normal. This was new to me but rest assured I will soon find it (Like I found one which they will insert to game on 23rd) Isn't it grand that biggest tactics in system occupancy revolve around alts, bugs and rampant meta-gaming
Well I don't know about bugs because I don't plex that much, but I thought when you say Eve, you say alts and metagaming ? Why would FW be an exception ? |
Kuehnelt
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
51
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 06:56:00 -
[768] - Quote
chatgris wrote:I'd rather wait until they flipped the system so I can get some reward for plexing. (I'd probably still fight them in the plex if they were there, just not run the button).
I say this because I think people will quickly realize it's not worth putting any LP into the IHUB just to have it drained away while you sleep.
The multiplier on your LP store costs depends on the number of systems you have and on how upgraded they are. So, let's look at this purely hypothetical example:
1. one side ends up with 10+ systems but they're all fully upgraded and can easily remain so except when the other side parks half of their forces in one system for half a day;
2. the other side has 40+ systems but only two of them are fully upgraded, because this side is completely absent from most of these systems and can't police them to the point where it'd make sense to invest any LP into them.
3. the first side can still lose LP invested into its space, but mostly after a fight. The second side will lose LP invested into its space mostly without being able to bring a fight.
4. Therefore, the LP multiplier each side will be... I have no idea.
Maybe something crazy like this scenario will come to pass and we'll be able to see.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:But seriously, complaining about boosters?
Yep.
Quote: Is this what Faction Warfare has come to, where we sit around asking each other politely to not use certain ships and than calling each other cheaters if we do ?
Bolded the incorrect bits. You can only ever bring Dramiels to minor plexes, too, and you'll begin to note weird patterns of behavior in your enemies (why are they so rude? Why do they keep leaving?), and you may even get so used to justifying your actions that you settle on a few that sound particularly good to your ear ("if you don't like it, buy your own Loki booster alt"; "This is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARTA"). But don't be so ******* surprised every time you're called out about it. |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
184
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 07:10:00 -
[769] - Quote
So to upgrade a system all the way is 100k LP and you can buffer it with 150k more, am i right?(got no sisi right now) So getting it up there is not to bad, in the corp I'm in now thats still do able. One week end of all of us running FW missions and poof several systems upped to max. The buffer seems small tho, why dose it cap at all? Also are the going to implement a corp/alliance way to pool LP? if not this is going to be a head ache to manage and I'm calling not it right now for the Gall side. I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec. Were is the FW exclusive frigate sized ship? I see the cruiser and battle ship.......... |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
237
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 08:01:00 -
[770] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:Bolded the incorrect bits. You can only ever bring Dramiels to minor plexes, too, and you'll begin to note weird patterns of behavior in your enemies (why are they so rude? Why do they keep leaving?), and you may even get so used to justifying your actions that you settle on a few that sound particularly good to your ear ("if you don't like it, buy your own Loki booster alt"; "This is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARTA"). But don't be so ******* surprised every time you're called out about it.
Not sure who you are fighting in the warzone, but LNA rarely uses Boosters or any of the other mechanics you are whining about. The only time, as an FC, I start thinking about Booster alts is when the numbers are hitting 30+ on both sides and you need that extra edge OR, if we are heavily outnumbered or out-Blackbirded (yes, its a thing) then I'm seeing if anyone has a Booster we can toss in command to even the odds. At worst, the most we might do is hopelessly blob you to death, but our Comms are open to all militia members and who am I to throw people out of fleet. vOv
IDK how the Euros run, not too familiar with their fleets. vOv Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 13:55:00 -
[771] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:The multiplier on your LP store costs depends on the number of systems you have and on how upgraded they are.
Like you said though, we don't how much of an effect upgrading has verus gaining systems. CCP is asking us to give feedback on a system that they have not explained.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Jimmy Nickson
The Lucky Star
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 13:56:00 -
[772] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:Kuehnelt wrote:Bolded the incorrect bits. You can only ever bring Dramiels to minor plexes, too, and you'll begin to note weird patterns of behavior in your enemies (why are they so rude? Why do they keep leaving?), and you may even get so used to justifying your actions that you settle on a few that sound particularly good to your ear ("if you don't like it, buy your own Loki booster alt"; "This is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARTA"). But don't be so ******* surprised every time you're called out about it. Not sure who you are fighting in the warzone, but LNA rarely uses Boosters or any of the other mechanics you are whining about. The only time, as an FC, I start thinking about Booster alts is when the numbers are hitting 30+ on both sides and you need that extra edge OR, if we are heavily outnumbered or out-Blackbirded (yes, its a thing) then I'm seeing if anyone has a Booster we can toss in command to even the odds. At worst, the most we might do is hopelessly blob you to death, but our Comms are open to all militia members and who am I to throw people out of fleet. vOv IDK how the Euros run, not too familiar with their fleets. vOv
LNA running boosters rarely see, but IO.... >_> never see them running around without one. if not 3
personaly couldn't care about boosters, use em myself, so I'm just stating facts here not complaining =P Fire ze missiles! |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 14:10:00 -
[773] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:I'd much rather engage aggressors when my system is at 5% contested instead of 95% contested, but maybe that's just me. I'd rather wait until they flipped the system so I can get some reward for plexing. (I'd probably still fight them in the plex if they were there, just not run the button). I say this because I think people will quickly realize it's not worth putting any LP into the IHUB just to have it drained away while you sleep.
And the stated benefits to putting lp in an ihub are not exactly compelling.
The big question is how much will the upgrades effect the 16x multiplier. Is it going to be effected more by just the raw number of systems or is it going to be effected much more by the lp upgrades? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2366
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 16:35:00 -
[774] - Quote
I've asked CCP to post the Warzone Control formulas here for everyone to see, hoping to get you guys some clarification soon. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1975
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 16:39:00 -
[775] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:As I understand the idiocy coming, losing plexes in a non-upgraded system has zero impact on warzone control unless it actually flips. So as long as its a 'chaff' system you can wait for as long as you want (until flipping) before dropping a blob in there to counter with no adverse effects .. as they are still not killing of the DT shuffle, I reckon the post-DT action will be back in full force for defenders as they get no immediate benefit so will want to minimize time spent plexing. PS: You just ran out 20 Amarr with a 50 man triple neut boosted fleet .. calling you Shakorites for blobbers in very appropriate
Yeah but if that "blob" is dropped at the 11th hour when a system is 99% contested wouldn't the smaller ninja plexing group just go away and come back later and continue the contesting later. The "blob" arriving doesn't automatically uncontest 35 hours worth of effort - it simply delays the flip. Unless the defenders are willing to put 35 hours worth of counter plexing into this "chaff" system then the place will continue to be a likely target.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
1975
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 16:46:00 -
[776] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:The linked battle report? Spanning a whopping 5+ hours with Goddess knows how many reships on either side? Welcome to the downside of basing ones intel/arguments on killboard statistics. Not complaining about what war is but what it has become. Two years ago, before you were wired probably, all we had to contend with was a couple of neutral logistics accompanying fleets .. now we have frigates rarely laeving safe harbour without a neutral booster in tow and fleets only engaging if stars are aligned, peaches are in blossom and everyone has their socks on right.
In short: The fun has been sucked out of FW.
I'm a little bit astonished at your assessment here Veshta. Because I'm wondering if you and I have been in the same local the last few nights. I've seen you docked continuously in the top station kourm right enough - but I can't really believe you are talking about the same continual skirmishes and fights I've been part of now.
Last night for example was 5-6 hours of wall to wall plexing fights in different sizes of ships - typically yes the Amarr were a little bit outnumbered, but your guys were playing an ECM dominance strategy (6-8 blackbirds etc) and it was clear the Minmatar needed more firepower to shoot through that. Despite the disparities there was a continuous round of fighting - dessies, cruisers, battlecruisers, tier 3s - the Amarrians even brought out an armour battleship fleet with guardian support at one point.
I'd estimate several hundred players were involved in running battles and skirmishes in the warzone as the 24th tried desperately to take Kourm and the TLF scrambled to defend it.
And through it all you were docked in the top station kourm rather than fleeting up with your militia-mates and I have to wonder if this is the reason you are finding FW experience now "ruined" rather than anything CCP are planning.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 17:08:00 -
[777] - Quote
Cearain wrote: The big question is how much will the upgrades effect the 16x multiplier. Is it going to be effected more by just the raw number of systems or is it going to be effected much more by the lp upgrades?
on sisi at the moment.
Minmatar/Amarr warzone has 70 systems and the total warzone control is determined on a scale of 420 points.
Which means each system is worth 6 points. 1 point for capturing it, and 1 point for each upgrade level.
this matches what the FW tooltips say on sisi. "sum of conquered systems and their upgrade levels"
for the Minmtar/amarr warzone, the intervals between lp store offers changing are every 84 points.
which means, to avoid the worst LP offers, you'd need to hold 14 fully upgraded systems. 6x14 =84, should be enough, tho 85 would probably work better. which means 15 systems.
Not sure, but it looks to me, that in the Gallente/Caldari warzone, people may have to put LP into upgrading stationless systems, in order to improve their LP store offers. Which is a bit... odd.
Distribution of stationless systems is ofc uneven. Think minmatar have 3, amarr 7 systems ? not sure. maybe something for CCP to look at at some point. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
114
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 17:43:00 -
[778] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:... Unless the defenders are willing to put 35 hours worth of counter plexing into this "chaff" system then the place will continue to be a likely target. Hence my prediction that post-DT plexing will be in style again as it can offer up 7-8 hours worth of plexes in one fell swoop. Careful management of which systems are 'taken' can minimize the time needed to defend them ..
Jade Constantine wrote:...And through it all you were docked in the top station kourm rather than fleeting up with your militia-mates and I have to wonder if this is the reason you are finding FW experience now "ruined" rather than anything CCP are planning. Busy managing my assets (read: running for the hills ) as CCP in all their idiocy wisdom refuses to address the balance issues they were first made aware of 3+ years ago and will proceed with their plan of station lock-outs and massively exploitable LP incentives/farms. Most of my 5B in assets are deployed in the theatre, and with balance being non existent plus active numbers being skewed as per normal for season, the patch will push us out of LS regardless of how well/hard we may fight. Thanks to the new mechanics being designed to keep a downed militia down barring an insane influx of new blood chances are the Shakorites will "win" the war courtesy of Icelandic drunkards.
FW was ruined when CCP decided it was a good idea to ignore us for three years and then suddenly want to implement mechanics introduced/spearheaded by null and assorted FW noobs, that very few FW hard-liners wants/needs .. most of us are here to get away from the faggotry of null mechanics .. guess the joke is on us.
Bitter is for noobs. Sour is the new black! |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 18:10:00 -
[779] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Cearain wrote: The big question is how much will the upgrades effect the 16x multiplier. Is it going to be effected more by just the raw number of systems or is it going to be effected much more by the lp upgrades?
on sisi at the moment. Minmatar/Amarr warzone has 70 systems and the total warzone control is determined on a scale of 420 points. Which means each system is worth 6 points. 1 point for capturing it, and 1 point for each upgrade level.
Awesome thanks for going through this. So we can upgrade systems that have no stations?
Valerie Valate wrote:
for the Minmtar/amarr warzone, the intervals between lp store offers changing are every 84 points.
which means, to avoid the worst LP offers, you'd need to hold 14 fully upgraded systems. 6x14 =84, should be enough, tho 85 would probably work better. which means 15 systems..
But doesn't that assume that all of the other sides systems are fully upgraded. If minmatar held 56 systems none of which were upgraded then amarr would not need to upgrade any of their systems. I think they do the back end math to figure out where you stand on the scale of 420. So if no systems of either side are upgraded then when you capture a system it is really worth 6 points on the 420 scale not one.
I like that it is cheaper lp wise to upgrade a new system to level 1 rather than to upgrade the same system to level 2. This should encourage factions to upgrade more systems that are more spread out rather than just upgrading the same system. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
104
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 18:26:00 -
[780] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Awesome thanks for going through this. So we can upgrade systems that have no stations?
Yes. Ezzara (0 stations) appears as upgraded.
Cearain wrote: But doesn't that assume that all of the other sides systems are fully upgraded?
No ?
here's a picture: http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/bloodnuns/20120517181821.jpg
the minmatar have not upgraded all systems to V and don't get the benefit from the lp stores.
If the minmatar took all 70 systems, but none were upgraded, they'd only have 70 points, and would still have the worst lp store offers. |
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 18:42:00 -
[781] - Quote
Valerie Valate wrote:Cearain wrote: Awesome thanks for going through this. So we can upgrade systems that have no stations?
Yes. Ezzara (0 stations) appears as upgraded. Cearain wrote: But doesn't that assume that all of the other sides systems are fully upgraded?
No ? here's a picture: http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/bloodnuns/20120517181821.jpgthe minmatar have not upgraded all systems to V and don't get the benefit from the lp stores. If the minmatar took all 70 systems, but none were upgraded, they'd only have 70 points, and would still have the worst lp store offers.
Ok I see so by doing offensive plexes that drops the enemy a level you are not thereby boosting your sides lp multiplier. You are only hurting their lp multiplier.
They seemed to indicate the multiplier was based on a comparison of the two factions when they said:
"That is why progress will now be tracked by counting the number of solar systems held, how many upgrades are installed for each faction and compared to the faction's enemy over the regions being competed for."
But the multiplier doesn't really involve a "comparison" of your territory and upgrades with the enemies. It is just how many points of a possible total you get. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2367
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 18:55:00 -
[782] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Ok I see so by doing offensive plexes that drops the enemy a level you are not thereby boosting your sides lp multiplier. You are only hurting their lp multiplier.
They seemed to indicate the multiplier was based on a comparison of the two factions when they said:
"That is why progress will now be tracked by counting the number of solar systems held, how many upgrades are installed for each faction and compared to the faction's enemy over the regions being competed for."
But the multiplier doesn't really involve a "comparison" of your territory and upgrades with the enemies. It is just how many points of a possible total you get.
I think they mean that you can see a graphical indicator in the new UI that compares the two faction's progress level, even if a direct ratio between the two doesn't factor into the warzone control rewards.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 19:47:00 -
[783] - Quote
Does anybody know how often the "Control Stats" are updated? There is absolutely no way we could hold the 10+ systems to level V to hit even the first tier of control upgrades. I forsee planned time events to plex and cash out LP stores by dumping LP into systems, farming like crazy, cashing out, and then doing nothing for several days. The other side can easily drain all your upgrades while you sleep. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
187
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 19:56:00 -
[784] - Quote
Has anyone tried testing on SISI to contest a system with zero upgrades? (ie no LP in the bunker)
I'm wondering if the system is not upgraded, will still pay out LP for offensive plexing. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
50
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 20:07:00 -
[785] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:Has anyone tried testing on SISI to contest a system with zero upgrades? (ie no LP in the bunker)
I'm wondering if the system is not upgraded, will still pay out LP for offensive plexing.
From my understand from the dev blog plexing pays lp no matter what AND hurts the joint lp bucket thing.
That is the consequence for not showing up to defend the bunker your LP gets drained as well. Lt. Colonel of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
424
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 21:27:00 -
[786] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Does anybody know how often the "Control Stats" are updated? There is absolutely no way we could hold the 10+ systems to level V to hit even the first tier of control upgrades. I forsee planned time events to plex and cash out LP stores by dumping LP into systems, farming like crazy, cashing out, and then doing nothing for several days. The other side can easily drain all your upgrades while you sleep.
Yes I agree this may be what people do. But it would take allot of lp and therefore a coodinated effort to do this.
As far as people draining your lp while you sleep I suppose they would but you gain lp from doing offensive plexes 2xs as fast as they will be able to drain yours. So I'm not sure you would defend it even if you were awake and solely concerned about lp.
Anyway now that I know a bit more about how the lp banks work I think this is looking allot better than I initially thought. They definitely put some thought into this I will give them credit there. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
237
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 21:49:00 -
[787] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Andre Vauban wrote:Does anybody know how often the "Control Stats" are updated? There is absolutely no way we could hold the 10+ systems to level V to hit even the first tier of control upgrades. I forsee planned time events to plex and cash out LP stores by dumping LP into systems, farming like crazy, cashing out, and then doing nothing for several days. The other side can easily drain all your upgrades while you sleep. Yes I agree this may be what people do. But it would take allot of lp and therefore a coodinated effort to do this. As far as people draining your lp while you sleep I suppose they would but you gain lp from doing offensive plexes 2xs as fast as they will be able to drain yours. So I'm not sure you would defend it even if you were awake and solely concerned about lp. Anyway now that I know a bit more about how the lp banks work I think this is looking allot better than I initially thought. They definitely put some thought into this I will give them credit there.
DEATH OF FW IMMINENT, CCP ARE IDIOTS, MINMATARAUS BLOBBASAURUS TOO STONK. Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2369
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 21:55:00 -
[788] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote: DEATH OF FW IMMINENT, CCP ARE IDIOTS, MINMATARAUS BLOBBASAURUS TOO STONK.
Well that was bizarre. And oddly timed, just as he was beginning to give CCP some credit for coming up with some sensible mechanics. :-P
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
Zarnak Wulf
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
348
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 22:15:00 -
[789] - Quote
If one side gets curb stomped - absolutely pushed out of their systems - they still have a lot going for them. They would have:
70+ systems to plex Lots of WT to shoot Faction Items in huge demand.
The winning side would have some disadvantages. Even though they would have huge LP discounts, they would have:
No offensive plexes to run Few WT to shoot. My corp's KB has targets getting killed by 15+. That's a very poor LP split. It will get worse if any Amarr quit after said curb stomping. The only source of LP generation might become, groan, mission running. Faction Items have floor of market drop out.
Hopefully as time goes on the winning coalition would fall apart via boredom if nothing else. History seems to support that too. At one time the Caldari dominated. |
Vordak Kallager
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
237
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 22:27:00 -
[790] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Vordak Kallager wrote: DEATH OF FW IMMINENT, CCP ARE IDIOTS, MINMATARAUS BLOBBASAURUS TOO STONK.
Well that was bizarre. And oddly timed, just as he was beginning to give CCP some credit for coming up with some sensible mechanics. :-P
Oh, crap, yep he did. Sorry, guess I didn't wait to read through the entire post, see all the facts and stuff before I made my snap judgement about what he was saying.
~ironyalert~ Sa souvraya niende misain ye. |
|
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
218
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 22:33:00 -
[791] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Hopefully as time goes on the winning coalition would fall apart via boredom if nothing else. History seems to support that too. At one time the Caldari dominated. Doubtful. Gallente are not Caldari.
|
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 04:46:00 -
[792] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Hopefully as time goes on the winning coalition would fall apart via boredom if nothing else. History seems to support that too. At one time the Caldari dominated. Doubtful. Gallente are not Caldari.
Yeah, you never get bored chasing few frigs with two link alts and bc blob, with a titan bridge on stand-by. Since, you know, "gallentes want good fites".
What you really want are "Few diehard people attempting to fight who we can then gank with 4:1 odds, minimum, so we can feel smug about it and say we are the best". |
Ahazu Sagam
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 05:43:00 -
[793] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote: DEATH OF FW IMMINENT, CCP ARE IDIOTS, MINMATARAUS BLOBBASAURUS TOO STONK.
Just saying;
Minmatar Milita (5,146 member): 0.033 kills daily per member 2.152 VPs daily per member
Amarr Milita (4,331 Member): 0.041 kills daily per member 2.806 VPs daily per member
Its not the blobbasaurus, stupid balance and mechanics are the problem. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
219
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 06:04:00 -
[794] - Quote
Joanna Ramirez wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Hopefully as time goes on the winning coalition would fall apart via boredom if nothing else. History seems to support that too. At one time the Caldari dominated. Doubtful. Gallente are not Caldari. Yeah, you never get bored chasing few frigs with two link alts and bc blob, with a titan bridge on stand-by. Since, you know, "gallentes want good fites". What you really want are "Few diehard people attempting to fight who we can then gank with 4:1 odds, minimum, so we can feel smug about it and say we are the best". Yeah, you pretty much nailed it. Why give up a good thing? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
114
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Posted - 2012.05.18 06:43:00 -
[795] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:DEATH OF FW IMMINENT, CCP ARE IDIOTS, MINMATARAUS BLOBBASAURUS TOO STONK. Patience, needed my morning coffee .. here we go!
Zarnak Wulf wrote:If one side gets curb stomped - absolutely pushed out of their systems - they still have a lot going for them. They would have:
70+ systems to plex Lots of WT to shoot Faction Items in huge demand. Unfortunately this would have to be done with zero reships available within reasonable distance, unless one is content with pecking at the periphery which will likely be camped to hell and back (assuming curb stomped means the same to both of us, ie. one side numerically superior).
A collapsed militia is Cearain's worst nightmare coming true, PvE fits will not be optional as running to new plex is a lot easier/faster than having to reship umpteen jumps away.
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The winning side would have some disadvantages. Even though they would have huge LP discounts, they would have: No offensive plexes to run Few WT to shoot. My corp's KB has targets getting killed by 15+. That's a very poor LP split. It will get worse if any Amarr quit after said curb stomping. The only source of LP generation might become, groan, mission running. Faction Items have floor of market drop out. 1. Easily mitigated by having an alt running defensive plexes simultaneously, it can be done pretty much 100% AFK when its defensive .. as if it is designed for alts!. Farm those suckers! 2. Blob friendly mechanics means blobby environment, nothing new here. Let me direct you to a potential solution to the blob-to-win issue. Either way, LP-for-Kills will always have to be droplets to avoid alt-farming .. would personally have preferred a system where % module drop decreased as participants increased. 3. Not if you farm your plexes properly and manage which systems are left in enemy hands .. you could have missions with just a couple of jumps required, LP/Hour is insane when the system is gamed, more so with new mechanics (occupancy replaced with sovereignty). 4. Faction items bottomed out almost two years ago. Once you get the x2 modifier, navy ships are same price as now so you stand to get even more ISK as the modifier applies to everything .. x3-4 modifier is just pure luxury really. |
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