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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Seishi Maru
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.03 01:23:00 -
[451]
The training issue is irrelevant! Because alsmot all minmatar chars already have torps at level 4 because of typhoon and other missile skills because of other ships. So the training time extra is 12 days more.. NOT RELEVANT! Specially when you consider moros also is obligated basically to train drones up to perfection since they are half its DPS.
No the problem is NOT training and anyone that says that has no clue at all. The problem is BOTH damage and range mods escalation combined with fact that naglfar already starts with 1 less slot.
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isdisco3
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.05.03 01:37:00 -
[452]
Guys, for the 19th time, you're NOT going to get your 3 turret slots. It involves a model remake (despite all the genuises here who apparently know how to run an MMORPG and can tell CCP how to fix their process), and it would be too long and too complicated.
Since we can't get 3 turrets, what we can get is a marauder-like role bonus (or a really high damage bonus per level) to give the same effective damage.
Continuing on, another main problem is what kind of tank it fits. At present, due to having too few mids and lows for either a shield or armor tank, the naglfail sucks. This should be rectified by bringing it in-line with all other dreads in terms of total mid and low slots.
Personally, I like armor tanking. I think the nag is an extension of a typhoon. Given that Minmatar as a race has 4 ships total which active shield-tank (cyclone, command ships, and maelstrom), it would make sense to me that the Nag should tank armor as that is in line with almost all other ships of the race. For these reasons, I think the nag should armor tank, and as a result IMO it should have 3 highs, 5 mids, 7 lows. This slot layout puts it somewhere between a rev and a moros for tanking ability.
Finally, because many pilots have already trained for capital torps and the supports (which only have use on two other minmatar ships - the hound and the typhoon), I think a good solution would be to make the nag have 3 highs with 2 projectile and 2 missile hardpoints. If a significant boost is given to torps to make them viable for dreads (at present, they're only good at hitting completely stationary targets), then I can see Nag pilots really liking that they can have the option of either projectiles or torps, based on a possible strategic situations.
For example:
Say the torp boost gives them more damage but shorter range (say, 150km). And the artillery boost gives them more alpha, but lesser damage and longer range (say, 225km). A nag pilot would then have the option of two different, but equally viable, strategies to fit in his high slots. Combined with his ability to fit a decent armor tank (7 lows, remember), the nag is suddenly a very worthwhile ship that is also very versatile - people might actually want to fly it again for reasons beyond verticalness.
In conclusion, I re-iterate (with minor changes) what I've suggested for the past few pages:
Quote: Naglfar: 3 highs, 2 projectile 2 missile 5 mids 7 lows
Role bonus: 100% damage to projectile damage, 100% damage to missile damage 10% to projectile falloff per level, 10% explosion radius missiles per level
The projectile bonus enhances artillery usefulness (moar range!) and the torp one enhances its short-range damage ability (moar powar!).
Boom. Suddenly you have a flexible, viable, armor-tanking dreadnought that gives its pilots options and won't instantly die because it might not be instantly primaried.
It won't be the highest dps, but it won't be the worst. It won't be the best tank, but it won't be the worst. It will be a viable alternative dreadnought which holds its own and doesn't suck.
There's no reason to make this ship a projectile-only boat. Pilots can easily fly it that way if they choose, but we shouldn't limit them.
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Marcellus Corteaz
Alt Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.03 01:54:00 -
[453]
Originally by: Seishi Maru The training issue is irrelevant! Because alsmot all minmatar chars already have torps at level 4 because of typhoon and other missile skills because of other ships. So the training time extra is 12 days more.. NOT RELEVANT! Specially when you consider moros also is obligated basically to train drones up to perfection since they are half its DPS.
No the problem is NOT training and anyone that says that has no clue at all. The problem is BOTH damage and range mods escalation combined with fact that naglfar already starts with 1 less slot.
Whats the difference between level 4 support skills and level 5?
(Hint: it's more than 12 days.)
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.03 02:31:00 -
[454]
Dear CCP
Please introduce the 10000MN MWD and let Bumpfar do what it was meant to.
Thanks in advance. ---
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2009.05.03 04:35:00 -
[455]
Originally by: Nuts Nougat Dear CCP
Please introduce the 10000MN MWD and let Bumpfar do what it was meant to.
Thanks in advance.
10GN Mwds sound better
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Medidranda Livoga
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Posted - 2009.05.03 05:41:00 -
[456]
Originally by: isdisco3 long post
I prefer 2 high | 2 turret and 2 missile slots myself with big damage bonus for both weapon systems, if you¦re going to fit for a role then it better be focused role. It¦s still going to be unable to use that missile when long range combat is called for to any effect unless CCP makes torps much faster. Torps should be most damaging capital weapon anyway given their limitations. Phoenix has fine tank but is not really better at killing pos and is terrible at long range fight. If things remain as they are more or less it should outdamage other dreads against poses at least... Maybe it could be given rof bonus instead of kinetic bonus if capital cruises or something aren¦t coming.
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LiquidSteele
Canadian Imperial Armaments Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.05.03 06:35:00 -
[457]
The emotion in this thread is pretty interesting, think you can see how many of us have been the butt of jokes by our corp mates in.. well.. any other dread for so many years.
Lots of good suggestions and even though fairly late, good to see CCP listening and taking suggestions about a ship that looks so cool yet sucks so hard.
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prefectro
Minmatar Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.05.03 07:06:00 -
[458]
Could CCP update the OP with their other ideas or even changes based on the responses from the players, the same way you did with some of the other re-balance posts? Right now you are keeping us in the dark, the same way you did when you would post change ideas via a blog and the blog would never change. You mentioned you liked some of the ideas posted, well share it! Or are you done sharing and will just give us whatever you decide?
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Graalum
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.03 07:41:00 -
[459]
Edited by: Graalum on 03/05/2009 07:42:56 add capital cruise: instaboost to naglfar and pheonix. missiles are the only capital weapon lacking a short range/long range variant, and this should be addressed, rather than trying and failing to have the same weapon system do both.
of course more needs to be done, but it would at least make them less irrelevant
ideally imo:
add capital cruise
10% less damage than current cits's 3750m/s 30sec flight time
redo cits
15% (?) more damage (cits should be top dps capital weapon) 1250 m/s 30 second flight time
naglfar 4/6/6 3 turret/launcher (real versatility) 5% rof, 5% damage cpu + grid to fit shield tank + guns w/o fitting mods
bring arty/ac in line with other guns
of course this could massively increase the amount of sp's to fly minmatar capitals
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Graalum
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.03 07:47:00 -
[460]
seriously though there are lots of circumstances where you can make the argument that its better to fit cruise t2 than cits on a dread
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Mohenna
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Posted - 2009.05.03 07:55:00 -
[461]
Originally by: Nuts Nougat Dear CCP
Please introduce the 10000MN MWD and let Bumpfar do what it was meant to.
Thanks in advance.
/thread lol
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Marcellus Corteaz
Alt Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.03 08:06:00 -
[462]
Originally by: Graalum Edited by: Graalum on 03/05/2009 07:42:56 add capital cruise: instaboost to naglfar and pheonix. missiles are the only capital weapon lacking a short range/long range variant, and this should be addressed, rather than trying and failing to have the same weapon system do both.
of course more needs to be done, but it would at least make them less irrelevant
ideally imo:
add capital cruise
10% less damage than current cits's 3750m/s 30sec flight time
redo cits
15% (?) more damage (cits should be top dps capital weapon) 1250 m/s 30 second flight time
naglfar 4/6/6 3 turret/launcher (real versatility) 5% rof, 5% damage cpu + grid to fit shield tank + guns w/o fitting mods
bring arty/ac in line with other guns
of course this could massively increase the amount of sp's to fly minmatar capitals
Congratulations, you've just made a capital-sized Typhoon. Remind me again how often people use Typhoons in fleets that do the types of things dreads do?
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Chssmius
Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.05.03 08:17:00 -
[463]
Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz
Originally by: Graalum Edited by: Graalum on 03/05/2009 07:42:56 add capital cruise: instaboost to naglfar and pheonix. missiles are the only capital weapon lacking a short range/long range variant, and this should be addressed, rather than trying and failing to have the same weapon system do both.
of course more needs to be done, but it would at least make them less irrelevant
ideally imo:
add capital cruise
10% less damage than current cits's 3750m/s 30sec flight time
redo cits
15% (?) more damage (cits should be top dps capital weapon) 1250 m/s 30 second flight time
naglfar 4/6/6 3 turret/launcher (real versatility) 5% rof, 5% damage cpu + grid to fit shield tank + guns w/o fitting mods
bring arty/ac in line with other guns
of course this could massively increase the amount of sp's to fly minmatar capitals
Congratulations, you've just made a capital-sized Typhoon. Remind me again how often people use Typhoons in fleets that do the types of things dreads do?
...:raises hand:... In my defense, I only did it because it was my only ship option at the time.
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something somethingdark
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Posted - 2009.05.03 08:23:00 -
[464]
Originally by: Elaron Edited by: Elaron on 02/05/2009 22:36:57
Originally by: Voculus PC Gamer recently interviewd the BLizzard Art Director, Samwise Didier, about their new Starcraft II models.
The rest is cut as it's a complete failure of the person quoted to understand things.
I'm sorry, but you do not comprehend a number of things:
1) Starcraft 2 models are less complex. 2) CCP has a different art pipeline to Blizzard. 3) The Naglfar model is fine as it is. 4) What is being discussed is a quick and dirty fix to try and bring the Naglfar more into line with the other Dreadnoughts. For such a fix; and with a more general reworking of capital mechanics, including more work on all Dreadnoughts, coming in the future; a model change is inappropriate. 5) The artists and graphics programmers that would be involved with a remodel have better things to do. 6) By focussing on the model, you're completely failing to contribute anything worthwhile to the discussion, adding worthless noise to the thread.
1) yes (about a weeks worth more work) 2) that shouldnt not matter 3) agree in principle 4) why ? 5) like creating awesome new high polygon shirts for ambulation ? 6) perhaps he did way before and that statement from whisper that it would take them up to a year to change the model was so hilarious he just had to post that ?
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Bilaz
Minmatar Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.03 10:01:00 -
[465]
Naglfar will always be outgunned by other dreads while being dual-based platform, since on other dreads 1 damage mod does same job as two on naglfar. and for some reason nagl have less low slots that other armor tanked dreads wich leaves him with no place for damage mods or no place for tank.
second thing - open eft and fit 2 xl beam lasers on it naglfar. guess what? you end up with more dps that with projectiles. level 5 dread bonused xl projectiles are worse than unbonused lasors. awesome.
third point - alpha is overrated. your alpha is only important when ganking someone - in more or less long run dps-boats outrun alpha-boats. thats ofc if you are not fighting with active tanking ships - but active tanking dreads are history now.
solutions: 1) leave bonuses for both types projectiles and torpedoes, make naglfar with 4 turret and 4 launcher hardpoints - for player to decide what he wants - heavy (armor) tanked torpedo ship, shield tanked ganking boat or something in-between. 2) give naglfar drone damage bonus - for nagl to be hi-damage boat regardles of fitting but at expence of heavy skill load and drones\torpedo setbacks.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.05.03 11:26:00 -
[466]
Quote: * Swapping the projectile rate of fire bonus for a 10% projectile damage bonus per level.
less reloading is good; that's why beams are so good on a naglfail.
Quote: * Increasing the citadel launcher rate of fire bonus to 7.5% per level.
More dps and frankly the rof on citadels is slow anyway. At least relative to guns.
Quote: * Increasing the base CPU to 770 (+70) * Decreasing the base powergrid to 560,000 (-65,000)
Still pretty sure this doesnt make it viable to shield tank with a cpu mod. Which kinda blows.
Quote: * Damage multiplier increased to 12.075 (from 8.4) * Rate of Fire decreased to 35.438 secs (from 28.688) * Tracking Speed decreased to 0.0045 (from 0.005625) * Optimal Range increased to 80,000m (from 64,400) * Power need increased to 162,500mw (from 137,500)
I like it.
Quote: The 6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I will have similar changes made to keep the original scaling inline: * Damage Multiplier increased to 5.39 (from 3.85) * Rate of Fire decreased to 11.813 secs (from 8.438)
Meh? Nobody is silly enough to use ac or even short range dread stuff unless it's basically a trap. Hotdrop close range cyno for example.
Quote: Citadel Torpedoes We are looking at an increase to missile velocity and a proportional decrease to flight time. * Citadel Torpedo velocity increased to 1,250 m/s (from 750) * Citadel Torpedo flight time decreased to 54 secs (from 90)
Same operation range. More speed. So it's good. Citadels moreso fail due to the explosion velocity.
Summary:
Mostly good changed. I'd personally like there to be 1 more low slot. This gives shield tanking viability and/or extra slot for the tank. Which relatively speaking; certainly is lacking in ehp. Which is why I like the shield tanking option better as it has much more burst ehp. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Hurricane Carter
0ccam's Razor Nexus-Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.03 11:37:00 -
[467]
Personally, what I don't "get" in this thread is people saying:
Let us fit our Naglfar's with either a proper tank & less DPS then the other dreads, or fit proper DPS but with a worse tank then the other dreads.
Why must the naglfar still be the laughing stock off the dreadnought class then? Just make it up to par with the other dreads. I don't think we are asking THAT much. We just ask to be on a even playing field, no more, no less.
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Destructor1792
Minmatar snotty nosed little kids with nerf guns
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Posted - 2009.05.03 11:44:00 -
[468]
Problem we have is that with 4 races, we get 4 options as to type of style we wish to do combat with (albeit somewhat vague & out of whack on certain classes)!
This scales fine up to the BS class (sort of) but not so well when you enter The Capital range. Dreads have 2 roles - Either shooting POS's or shooting other Capitals! They don't ECM or Skirmish.. they just warp (or cyno) in, hit siege, engage weapons, engage tank, & go AFK for 10 mins! Each Dread also has a clear role as to the type of tank CCP envisage us to fit by the slot layouts & HP distribution... until you get to the Naglverticus!!
Due to the split weapon system, this complicates things further.. Double the training and then even subpar compared to the rest! Load out the lows with damage mods & you're in a glass cannon with laughable DPS, Slap in a SB and you're left with 4 slots to fit a LoL tank!! Or option 2: Forgo the damage mods, Fit out a semi decent tank but sit in shame as your DPS becomes even more laughable!!
So, lets have it so 2 Dreads are absolute killers at POS bashing whilst the other 2 are okay(ish)! And the other 2 are vice versa - Capital killers but mediocre at POS bashing.
Nag already slots into the Capital Killer roll and with tweaks to boost its guns tracking/DPS output & either a fix to Citadels or remove them from the Nag, this could become quite an interesting ship to fly again.
I'd still like to see the 3/6/7 slot layout and getting shot of citadels! Even a new Seige Mod released which compliments the Cap V Cap warfare (no speed reduction / Double damage & tracking boost / 50% repair amount rep'd / 3 minute timer / double the stront use of the standard siege mod .. or something along those lines).
Due to the poor distribution of HPs on this ship, you get the choice to either shield or armour tank with the extra slots actually allowing a decent tank to be fitted.
\caffeine mode on standby
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Bringing The Fun Back
[gold]I Have No Fear, That's your Problem[/go |
Random Womble
Minmatar Emo Rangers Electric Monkey Overlords
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Posted - 2009.05.03 16:00:00 -
[469]
Originally by: Cupdeez Why is this difficult?
High slots 1 Siege / 3 Guns (No missiles)
Med slots Leave the same
Low Slots leave the same
Change the power gride and CPU to put inline with the other dreads. Change the DPS to put inline with the other dreads (weather it be volley damage or DPS)
By doing that the nag will still be worse off than the other dreads because it still lacks a low or med slot compaird to the others 7 + 5 = 12 for Moros 8 + 4 = 12 for rev and 7 + 5 = 12 for the phoenix. while nag has 6 + 5 = 11
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.03 16:11:00 -
[470]
Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz
Originally by: Seishi Maru The training issue is irrelevant! Because alsmot all minmatar chars already have torps at level 4 because of typhoon and other missile skills because of other ships. So the training time extra is 12 days more.. NOT RELEVANT! Specially when you consider moros also is obligated basically to train drones up to perfection since they are half its DPS.
No the problem is NOT training and anyone that says that has no clue at all. The problem is BOTH damage and range mods escalation combined with fact that naglfar already starts with 1 less slot.
Whats the difference between level 4 support skills and level 5?
(Hint: it's more than 12 days.)
the only thing you need at level 5 that is not already level 5 to any decent minmatar pilot is torps 5. That is 512 K SP. An optimized character can do it in 12 days (rough mind calcualtion here so might be +- 1 or so days, but general concept remains. And even that is not exclusive usage on the naglfar. So stop whining. training is NOT a problem. I have characters trained for naglfar moros and revelation. The time difference on the training is proportionally MINIMAL. The double the time is pure crap that comes from people that cannot even fly dreads. The time to train for the guns is irrelevant when compared to the navigation skills and tactical weapon reconfiguration. Training for a dread takes several months trainign torps to level 5 is irrelevant when compared to that time.
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Random Womble
Minmatar Emo Rangers Electric Monkey Overlords
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Posted - 2009.05.03 16:12:00 -
[471]
Below is a copy and paste of my opinions and ideas from december and yes i know alot of this has been said by others just want to put my ideas out there
Right now in terms of its class it is completely borked for a start its a minmatar ship but you actually do more dps with lasers fitted than capital projectile guns when fitting a ranged setup even with minmatar dread Lv5 and more damage with blasters than autos with dread Lv4, now while some might think this is not really worthy of note and will point out the benifits of projectiles and downsides of lasers/blasters (cap use) it is pretty much typical of the state of the ship and is extreemly flawed design.
For a start the split weapons system is a failure it leaves the naglfar unable to really use any damage mods to a decent effect having to fit 2 just to get the same increase in damage any other dread would with one module (damage mods are a 90% certainty on most dread setups). On top of that the split weapons system is the reason why beam lasers are more effective than artillery and even autocannons suffer when shooting a POS as you need to take into account the fact that the autocannons will be firing in faloff no matter what ammo used even when right on the edge of shields (not the case with pulse lasers). This is due to only a single bonus to projectile turrets which really require 2 to be effective. So ideally the naglfar should be changed to a pure projectile boat with 4 highslots and 3 turret hardpoints with 2 projectile bonuses (one dmage one RoF) alternatively the 5 highslots could be kept but again switching it to 2 turret bonuses with 3 turret hardpoints and 1 launcher (unbonused and therefore damage is pretty poor).
If no changes are going to happen to the highslots of the naglfar then at the very least it needs an increase in CPU as it is the naglfar uses 80 more CPU than the moros in its high slots (long range guns vs long range and short vs short fittings 80 CPU both times) while it does have one less low slot than the moros (something i will come to later) the ammount of CPU that one low slot would use maximum would be 40 CPU (and thats generous). Therefore in theory the naglfar should have atleast 40 more CPU than the Moros with skills and probably base however as it is the naglfar has _50_ CPU less base which is just plain wrong and completely out of whack. That ammount of CPU more correctly fits the profile of a 3 turret projectile only ship not a ship using 2 launchers (150 Cpu each) and 2 guns (55 or 70 CPU each).+70 CPU is good but not enough
Next as i mentioned earlier the naglfar has 1 less mid slot than the moros infact it has 11 mid/lows total while every other dread has 12 while this was obviously done because the naglfar had an extra highslot it completely missed the point of why that highslot was there. The reason the naglfar had an extra highslot was to compensate (which it does not actually do very well anyway) for the split weapons system and seperated bonuses so that the naglfar would be effectively (but not in actual reality) able to do about the same as the other dreads could do with their 3 gun (moros/rev) or 3 launcher (phoenix) slots. So as such should have been completely ignored when the naglfar was designed. So in my opinion the naglfar should be given its missing slot and since the minmatar capitals were intially designed to be shield tankers (or thats the veiw i hold) it is my belief the naglfar should be given 1 extra midslot.
Finally a tiny in my veiw incorrect trait is the drone bay generally minmatar ships have the second largest drone bay the most obvious example of this is that the minmatar carrier and mothership both have second largest bays after the gallente ones therefore it is my belief the naglfar should have a large dronebay than the revelation (250m3) somewhere in the region of 280 m3. However that is a much minor issue and many will see it as a change which is not really needed while atleast some of the others ar
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Marcellus Corteaz
Alt Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.03 16:51:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
the only thing you need at level 5 that is not already level 5 to any decent minmatar pilot is torps 5. That is 512 K SP. An optimized character can do it in 12 days (rough mind calcualtion here so might be +- 1 or so days, but general concept remains. And even that is not exclusive usage on the naglfar. So stop whining. training is NOT a problem. I have characters trained for naglfar moros and revelation. The time difference on the training is proportionally MINIMAL. The double the time is pure crap that comes from people that cannot even fly dreads. The time to train for the guns is irrelevant when compared to the navigation skills and tactical weapon reconfiguration. Training for a dread takes several months trainign torps to level 5 is irrelevant when compared to that time.
I can count on one hand the number of Minmatar pilots I know who took the time to completely max out their missile support skills before training for the Nag.
(I don't even need the whole hand, either.)
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Dakisha
Mining Bytes Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.03 17:03:00 -
[473]
ttl;dnr
All this fuss over turrets/models.. Simple solution. Drop the launchers, give a +100% bonus to cap auto/arty damage - strip away the extra slots, reduce grid/cpu appropriately. Tweak as needed.
Problem solved.
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Altair Mogwa
Amok.
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Posted - 2009.05.03 17:57:00 -
[474]
Seishi Maru, using optimized character arguments for specific skill training fails because it doesn't account for the rest of the year in time lost on other areas.
The logic in saying training cits and projectiles is equal to other dreads is silly. We all know that nav, AWU/support, and spaceship command skills are all equal for piloting each dread.
Amarr: large e.turret V -> capital e.turret IV Gall: large hybrid V -> capital hybrid IV Cal: Torps V -> Cits IV Mintar: Large proj V -> Capital proj IV and Torps 5 -> cits IV
So how is that equal? Imagine the phoenix using turrets, when you can fly pretty much every ship in the fleet without training hybrids?
If you avoid the phoon, you can be skilled mintar without anything over heavies, The split is so low your couple slots left are all for utility (nuet, RR, cyno, cloak, whatever you pvp with.)
Just because people trained the split system because its been imbalanced for so long is not the players fault. It's also not a valid argument to keep it imbalanced. or to try and punish future dread pilots.
I doubt CCP wants every cap pilots in a rev, because if the moros wasn't good as well, that's all you'd see.
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Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.05.03 18:47:00 -
[475]
Originally by: Altair Mogwa So how is that equal?
It isn't, but the limited information we have on CCP's balance methodology indicates that training time is not a factor.
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Sexorella hotz
Pyre of Gods
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Posted - 2009.05.03 21:51:00 -
[476]
Edited by: Sexorella hotz on 03/05/2009 21:55:06 Edited by: Sexorella hotz on 03/05/2009 21:53:13 Just a thought, since we're so opposed to split weapon systems, but there are a ton of naglfar pilots who have committed valuable training time to it. As a possible change to weapons, I like the 2 high slot marauder idea, but perhaps either you can fit 2 cit's or 2 projectiles, depending on what you're doing. Make it such that citadels would be the ideal pos shooting platform, since they're bad at shooting caps, autocannons for high damage short range hot drops, and artilleries for sniping(and if you're dumb you can do one of each). In other words, reduce the total highs to 3, but still have two turret and 2 missile hardpoints. Citadels should out damage arties(shorter "effective" range), autocannons obviously highest damage makes them better for hot drop situations, and artilleries be the weakest damage of the 3, but with good range.
It remains to have some versatility in tanking, shield tank for pos shoot and hot-dropping, freeing lows for damage, and an armor tank for sniping(using meds for range and generally having to take less damage in a sniping situation).
You still have your options but they're at the fitting window. Also if we bring their damage in line with the other caps at this point, their tank still needs review, and to be brought up to par with the other dreads. They should probably have the same number of low/med fittings as other dreads, cause their hull based damage increases should create the illusion of 3 weapons.
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Marcellus Corteaz
Alt Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.03 22:16:00 -
[477]
Originally by: Sexorella hotz Edited by: Sexorella hotz on 03/05/2009 22:02:17 Just a thought, since we're so opposed to split weapon systems, but there are a ton of naglfar pilots who have committed valuable training time to it. As a possible change to weapons, I like the 2 high slot marauder idea, but perhaps either you can fit 2 cit's or 2 projectiles, depending on what you're doing. Make it such that citadels would be the ideal pos shooting platform, since they're bad at shooting caps, autocannons for high damage short range hot drops, and artilleries for sniping(and if you're dumb you can do one of each). In other words, reduce the total highs to 3, but still have two turret and 2 missile hardpoints. Citadels should out damage arties(shorter "effective" range), autocannons obviously highest damage makes them better for hot drop situations, and artilleries be the weakest damage of the 3, but with good range.
It remains to have some versatility in tanking, shield tank for pos shoot and hot-dropping, freeing lows for damage, and an armor tank for sniping(using meds for range and generally having to take less damage in a sniping situation).
You still have your options but they're at the fitting window. Also if we bring their damage in line with the other caps at this point, their tank still needs review, and to be brought up to par with the other dreads. They should probably have the same number of low/med fittings as other dreads, cause their hull based damage increases should create the illusion of 3 weapons.
Finally, future nagl owners can get into the ship faster, they only need to train projectiles to fully function, since they can use it in capital battles(auto's or arti's for sniping) and pos shooting(arties), and can make the choice to increase their pos damage by training into citadels. Also this does not negate the need for fixing citadels, but that then stops being a problem worth discussing with the nagl, it becomes its own problem.
The only issue I have with this is that trying to make it so the Nag can either shield tank or armor tank is going to result in less-than-stellar performance. None of the other dreads need bonuses to tanking because they have slot layouts they clearly reflect their racial preference for tanking. If you try to do some sort of hybrid tanking scheme with the Nag, you'd need to add a tanking bonus to get it somewhere in the vicinity of the other dreads. There are some problems with this, though. First, none of the other dreads need a tanking bonus to have a proper tank, so we're now wasting one of the Nags bonuses to try and correct for poor slot layouts. Second, unless you add bonuses for both shield boost amount and armor repair amount, you're going to make it so one option is almost always better than the other. Once you've done that, why even bother trying to pretend like it's going to do the other.
Honestly, the best way to do this is for CCP to just pick one, shield or armor, doesn't really matter at this point. Give it a slot layout reflecting that choice (either 7/5 or 5/7) and the fitting to go with it.
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Sexorella hotz
Pyre of Gods
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Posted - 2009.05.03 22:29:00 -
[478]
Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz
Originally by: Sexorella hotz
Stuff I said
The only issue I have with this is that trying to make it so the Nag can either shield tank or armor tank is going to result in less-than-stellar performance. None of the other dreads need bonuses to tanking because they have slot layouts they clearly reflect their racial preference for tanking. If you try to do some sort of hybrid tanking scheme with the Nag, you'd need to add a tanking bonus to get it somewhere in the vicinity of the other dreads. There are some problems with this, though. First, none of the other dreads need a tanking bonus to have a proper tank, so we're now wasting one of the Nags bonuses to try and correct for poor slot layouts. Second, unless you add bonuses for both shield boost amount and armor repair amount, you're going to make it so one option is almost always better than the other. Once you've done that, why even bother trying to pretend like it's going to do the other.
Honestly, the best way to do this is for CCP to just pick one, shield or armor, doesn't really matter at this point. Give it a slot layout reflecting that choice (either 7/5 or 5/7) and the fitting to go with it.
I agree with this out of practicality, I would still be very happy with the nagl as I stated. Perhaps(as you've seen me state before), in return for this somewhat unfocused tank(though tbh it only is missing one slot in either tank direction), crank its damage up a bit higher. Trade offs and such. I think a 7/5 or 5/7 nagl and a 6/6 nagl are all acceptable in their own rights.
If you go 7/5, you focus its slots on shield tanking, how can it then snipe without giving so much of that up(moros and rev don't have this problem as their tank's in the lows, pheonix should just frown to this part of the discussion). If you go 5/7, its basically a moros without a drone bonus? 6/6 adds flavor and flexibility with this in mind.
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Marcellus Corteaz
Alt Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.03 23:18:00 -
[479]
Originally by: Sexorella hotz
Post.
Sniping with a 7/5 isn't a problem. You don't need as large of a tank as you would for a close range fit, as you're not receiving nearly the amount of damage. That means you can free up a slot for a sensor booster (you only need two, and you should already be fitting one), and locus rigs take care of the optimal problem. Honestly, I just can't agree with a 6/6 slot layout. That introduces the problem (that CCP doesn't factor in) of having to train two tanking systems, and leaves you with a subpar tank regardless.
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SickSeven
The Undead Righteous Knights
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Posted - 2009.05.03 23:29:00 -
[480]
You just can't ask players to train longer to be inferior.
So, either leave training time the same and find a way to make it damn worth our while, or change the ship and training time to balance with the rest.
That's all I'll say. There are a lot of good ideas in this thread and I hope CCP Chronotis is reading.
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