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Naglfar, Captial Projectile Turrets and Citadel Torpedos

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)
Psyflame ZiTek Deepspace Explorations	Posted - 2009.04.30 00:35:00 - [151] Edited by: Psyflame on 30/04/2009 00:36:20 Originally by: Yorda 2 gun slots 100% damage role bonus 5% shield boost amount instead of missile RoF 3/6/5 +15% cpu There I did your job for you. Do want.
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.30 00:51:00 - [152] Originally by: Psyflame Edited by: Psyflame on 30/04/2009 00:36:20 Originally by: Yorda 2 gun slots 100% damage role bonus 5% shield boost amount instead of missile RoF 3/6/5 +15% cpu There I did your job for you. Do want. don 't even need to resort to role bonuses.. just give a simple 10% rof bonus ( at elvel 5 makes it 4 effective turrets.. matching revelation turretwise)
JForce The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.04.30 00:58:00 - [153] THE NAGLFAR IS INFERIOR IN EVERY SINGLE ASPECT TO EVERY OTHER DREAD, AND TAKES LONGER TO LEARN TO FLY. Until even a single aspect of the above is fixed, then you've failed.
FugginNutz Caldari Chinchilla Industries Manifest Destiny.	Posted - 2009.04.30 01:00:00 - [154] Someone asked me to pass this along: BLUF: Three turrets are the only reasonable way to improve the Naglfar to parity with other dreads. 1. Extra training time for two separate captial weapon systems. -Using two weapon systems requires nearly double the training time to be effective. Even though many Minnie pilots have decent missile skills because of their subcapital split weapon ships, requiring pilots who don't to train for missiles to achieve similar performance is inequitable and should be changed. If the split weapon system is retained, the Naglfar must have a clear advantage over other dreads to compensate for the increased training. Equal performance is not enough. Even though the Moros gets a drone bonus, every capital uses drones (mostly sentries), so there isn't a large disparity among them in this regard. 2. Split weapons and damage mods. -Split weapon systems require two different types of damage modules to increase the effectiveness of their weapons. Whereas the Moros, Revelation, and Phoenix can simply use three of their lowslots for their homogenous weapon systems, the Naglfar would have to devote the entire low slot rack to damage mods to receive comparable increases in performance. 3. Split weapons and tanking. -Because of the issue with split weapons and damage mods, the Naglfar would be forced to shield tank because of the complete use of it's low slots. Even were we to not use six damage mods (resulting in a lower damage output than other dreads), we would still only have four primary slots for tanking (after you add a sensor booster in the mids). This results in a lower burst tank than the Phoenix, while still retaining the Naglfar's lack of EHP when compared to other dreads. 4. Split weapons and primaries. -Because of the issues Citadel torpedos have (a separate matter entirely), torpedo users frequently have to shoot separate primaries in order to effectively apply damage before the target dies. With a split weapon system, Naglfars are forced to either a.) double task and shoot two primaries with different weapon systems to effectively apply damage, or b.) write off a large part (up to half of their damage) by shooting the same primary with both weapon systems and run the risk of none of their torpedos connecting because the target has died before they've arrived. 5. Split weapons and tactics. -Again, this is an issue which affects the Phoenix and the Naglfar because it is an issue with Citadel torpedos. The Naglfar can be setup to snipe; however, it will be the second least effective dread in this role (second only to the Phoenix). This is due to the fact that Citadel torpedos are for all intents and purposes, short range weapons. While it may be possible to increase the range to a point where sniping is feasible, traveling the 100km to the target would probably take the entire 10m siege cycle. Due to this, the Naglfar only has two effective weapons when attempting this tactic.
Tamo Isrect 4Chan.org	Posted - 2009.04.30 01:02:00 - [155] My idea of the Minmatar philosophy is something like "weaker-ships-in-general-but-more-fun-when-applied-properly-which-takes-skill-and-sp". People fly Minmatar cause they chose NOT TO GO FOR THE EASY WAY, but there has to be the potential that this risk pays off big time. * Massive shield boost before your cap runs dry after like 10 seconds (X-L Sleipnir, 2 Heavy-Injector Maelstrom...) * Real fast ships, which are dead instantly if you don't concentrate (Vagabond ...) * Carrier and MS which have the potential to save lots of friends, before being auto-primary * Alpha monsters (Artillery), which want to RUN as soon as you delivered your initial blast So just bringing the Nag "in line" with the other DNs (same dps, same tank) would be the easy but boring way to fix it. I could think of somethink like this: * Keep the same layout, but add some sort of smartbomb bonus aswell. * You'll still be the weakest DN if you fit 2+2 weapons * 2 weapons + 2 smartbombs give you new abilities: Harder to tackle & offensive ship with defensive opportunities (helping your titan friend getting out of bubbles, getting rid of enemy drones and fighters) - yet your dps is reduced & your tank still sucks Tamo
Austintatious Overview Glitch	Posted - 2009.04.30 01:04:00 - [156] get rid of the citadel torps! 3 turrets, 4 highs Flying Minmatar ships is like riding an office chair down stairs while firing an oozy.
ImmortalKalo Overview Glitch	Posted - 2009.04.30 01:05:00 - [157] Originally by: Yorda 2 gun slots 100% damage role bonus 5% shield boost amount instead of missile RoF 3/6/5 +15% cpu There I did your job for you. FO SHO
T2Ibis	Posted - 2009.04.30 01:05:00 - [158] Originally by: ImmortalKalo Originally by: Yorda 2 gun slots 100% damage role bonus 5% shield boost amount instead of missile RoF 3/6/5 +15% cpu There I did your job for you. FO SHO 3rded!
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.04.30 01:06:00 - [159] Originally by: T2Ibis Originally by: ImmortalKalo Originally by: Yorda 2 gun slots 100% damage role bonus 5% shield boost amount instead of missile RoF 3/6/5 +15% cpu There I did your job for you. FO SHO 3rded! You do realise this gives it four guns to start with and thus will not happen. It will probably only ever happen at 50% inbuilt ship bonus. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Psyflame ZiTek Deepspace Explorations	Posted - 2009.04.30 01:25:00 - [160] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: T2Ibis Quoted text omitted You do realise this gives it four guns to start with and thus will not happen. It will probably only ever happen at 50% inbuilt ship bonus. Four guns that do hilariously pathetic damage. Damage so low that a 3 gun revelation still exceeds them. Revelation: 3x Dual Giga Beam Laser I - 2469dps. Proposed Naglfar: 2x 100% bonus Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I - 2388dps Revelation, 3 heatsinks: 3x Dual Giga Beam Laser I - 4083dps Proposed Naglfar, 3 gyros: 2x 100% bonus Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I - 3508dps Exactly where are you going with this?

ZigZag Joe Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.30 01:39:00 - [161] This is made of fail.
Nikita Alterana Gallente The-Kissaki	Posted - 2009.04.30 01:42:00 - [162] How to make the Naglfar Better and make it ACTUALLY Versatile: Give the nag a large enough damage bonus to both its weapon systems that it doesn't need to waste its low slots on damage mods. This means the ship can be fit two ways, fitting the lows with damage mods, turning the ship into a glass cannon, doing more damage then other dreads; or fitting it with a tank so it does slightly less damage then other dreads, but tanks just as well as them. __________________________________________________ I was Amarr before they were the FOTM and I'll be Amarr after it! I'm also training Minmatar Capitals! And I eat Lions!
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.30 01:47:00 - [163] Originally by: Psyflame Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: T2Ibis Quoted text omitted You do realise this gives it four guns to start with and thus will not happen. It will probably only ever happen at 50% inbuilt ship bonus. Four guns that do hilariously pathetic damage. Damage so low that a 3 gun revelation still exceeds them. Revelation: 3x Dual Giga Beam Laser I - 2469dps. Proposed Naglfar: 2x 100% bonus Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I - 2388dps Revelation, 3 heatsinks: 3x Dual Giga Beam Laser I - 4083dps Proposed Naglfar, 3 gyros: 2x 100% bonus Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I - 3508dps Exactly where are you going with this? ok now wait. The projectiles do have a few little advantages.. like no cap usage (helps beign ready to cyno out as soon as pos dies) and a MODERATE capability of selecting damage. And does that numbers you ran use the NEW XL arties ?
Bal Dee	Posted - 2009.04.30 01:48:00 - [164] If we imagine the nag as being a pile of manure, the proposed changes simply alter the size and shape of the manure pile in subtle ways. But it is still a pile of manure. How clear can it be? Your players do not like split weapon systems. The product is unpopular. Remove it from the marketplace.
prefectro Minmatar Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.30 02:11:00 - [165] Edited by: prefectro on 30/04/2009 02:17:09 Originally by: CCP Chronotis At this point, we are gathering feedback and nothing is set in stone at all. As mentioned at the start, we realize that there are more fundamental issues with dreadnoughts and specific focuses on their anti-capital ship abilities. Feedback is most welcome! Here is my feedback. Forget the fundamental issues with dreads, you are missing the fundamental problem with the Naglfar. Unlike sub-cap ships there is only one way to be protected and that is with your tank. You can't quickly warp away or burn out of range from fire. Once you go in siege you are a sitting duck along with all the other dreads with you. So now the hostiles just need to cherry pick what they want to shoot first. Any competent FC will shoot the Naglfar because they have the worst tank. Why does every other race have 12 mid/low slots and the Matar only has 11. The extra high slot is a joke as the DPS is still worse then the other races. Then to top it off you have the most required training. And it is not just the Torp skill, you need to learn all the supporting missile skills.
Zeerover DeadSpace Exploration and Investigations	Posted - 2009.04.30 02:12:00 - [166] To give a constructive comment: Figure out what role you want for each dread and then change the layout and bonuses accordingly. For instance: Phoenix - massive but delayed damage, superb but brief tank. Revelation - Excellent for capital vs. capital and POS sieges, but very capacitor defendant. Moros - Good all-round ship, with added bonus of being able to fight sub-capitals with drones. Naglfar - ?!?!?
Artassaut Minmatar Oblivion Amalgamated	Posted - 2009.04.30 02:15:00 - [167] Edited by: Artassaut on 30/04/2009 02:15:45 How one could place a 3rd turret on the Naglfar. Naglfar. Place turret where X is. --- The Gate: Lol, try targeting me in a fleet fight. The Station: No U.
Elaron Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.04.30 02:17:00 - [168] Originally by: Clueless people We want the Naglfar to have three turrets! It's only a small art change! *CCP will not make art changes at all* as part of balancing**. With that off my chest, I have say I am disappointed with the proposed changes - in fact, it almost seems like a 'bait and switch' manoeuvre, intended to give the appearance of an improvement while keeping the Naglfar firmly at the bottom of the Dreadnought heap. Please consider any one of the excellent suggestions in this thread, especially those that revolve around removing the necessity to use Citadel torpedoes while still only using two turret slots. At the very least, please give a detailed explanation of why you think that the Naglfar will be balanced compared to the other dreads with your proposed changes.
something somethingdark	Posted - 2009.04.30 02:24:00 - [169] Split weapon systems ahoy! first of all ... redesign the naglfar ... comon its gona take like a week to remodel it propperly so it has a 3rd turret hardpoint its complicated but it aint rocket science second ... fix the nagl in stations so it doesnt stabb them ... tyvm third slot layout 5 / 6 / 5 a number higher Increasing the base CPU to 800 (+100) yet another number higher give it the folowing 3 turret hardpoints and 3 launcher hardpoints add in your proposed xl projectile and citadel changes and... voglia .... a dread that truly versatile, doesnt suck and isnt overpowered srsly thou.. redesign it... its a bit anoying but its not impossible and it wont take as long as the doom prophecys your graphics designers tell you infact it will be long done before you implement the changes on tq
Drave McClay GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.30 02:28:00 - [170] Originally by: Yorda 2 gun slots 100% damage role bonus 5% shield boost amount instead of missile RoF 3/6/5 +15% cpu There I did your job for you. One thousand times this.

Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.30 02:30:00 - [171] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: T2Ibis Originally by: ImmortalKalo Originally by: Yorda 2 gun slots 100% damage role bonus 5% shield boost amount instead of missile RoF 3/6/5 +15% cpu There I did your job for you. FO SHO 3rded! You do realise this gives it four guns to start with and thus will not happen. It will probably only ever happen at 50% inbuilt ship bonus. You do realize that beams do base 40% more damage than artillery. right? Even with "4" gun slots the rev will outdamage the nag. Support Fixing the Naglfar!
Orb Lati Minmatar ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.30 02:53:00 - [172] Edited by: Orb Lati on 30/04/2009 02:54:00 I would prefer it if CCP would keep the dual weapon system, but make it much more effective through citadel torp changes plus gun clip sizes and DPS. Just because up and coming Minmatar capital pilots don't like the idea of having to train more skill sets don't penalize those players that have already spent that time training all the skills needed to fly the Nag in its current form. I wouldn't mind the idea that nag pilots will always be automatic primaries of that reason was to get rid of ungodly DPS instead off killing the easy target. "We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible"
Rocius Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.04.30 03:16:00 - [173] Originally by: Orb Lati Edited by: Orb Lati on 30/04/2009 02:54:00 Just because up and coming Minmatar capital pilots don't like the idea of having to train more skill sets don't penalize those players that have already spent that time training all the skills needed to fly the Nag in its current form. I wouldn't mind the idea that nag pilots will always be automatic primaries of that reason was to get rid of ungodly DPS instead off killing the easy target. QFT ! I have invested alot of time training my current skills to be totaly maximized for both weapon system, and I'll be damned if I want them to negate ALOT of skills by yanking the torps off of the ship. Keep the current weapon systems as is, just give it another set of bonuses. Is there some hard set rule that all the ships ahve to have the same number of bonuses? While I am not really sure the BEST way to improve the Nag, what is listed so far by CCP, is definitly not it. Of course, in some other thread the prospect of a Nag that does seige and can still move is good Nadlbond FTW !! Nag NEEDS LOVE...... Its freaking vertical man
Halycon Gamma Caldari The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.30 03:21:00 - [174] I don't fly dreads, nor do I ever plan on it. But I do have a question. According to CCP at the start of this thread, the issue with balancing the Naglfar is that dreads ships have two roles. Anti-POS, and Anti-Capital. So my question is. When are the proposed changes to Sov supposed to happen? Once that goes live, wouldn't the issue of balancing around POS fights go away? In which case you'd have to re-balance all the dreads for more of a anti-capital role anyway? Does CCP see this as a stop gap fix, until Sovereignty is re-deployed in a new manner which allows a base redesign on the entire Dreadnought class? The reason I want to know is, knowing there is a true change coming makes this at least a little more palatable.
Danthomir Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.30 03:35:00 - [175] I trained for the Nidhoggur 'cuz it looks cool and all carriers run logistics just fine. As far as I can tell, the only advantage the Naglfar has over the other dreads is looks. In everything else (everything) it's outmatched. Advantages: Looks kinda cool. Disadvantages: Killing small ships: owned by Moros. Long boring POS shoots: owned by Revelation. Training time: ****ing owned by everything. Dread fights: lol
Min Qa	Posted - 2009.04.30 04:23:00 - [176] Originally by: Rocius Originally by: Orb Lati Edited by: Orb Lati on 30/04/2009 02:54:00 Just because up and coming Minmatar capital pilots don't like the idea of having to train more skill sets don't penalize those players that have already spent that time training all the skills needed to fly the Nag in its current form. I wouldn't mind the idea that nag pilots will always be automatic primaries of that reason was to get rid of ungodly DPS instead off killing the easy target. QFT ! I have invested alot of time training my current skills to be totaly maximized for both weapon system, and I'll be damned if I want them to negate ALOT of skills by yanking the torps off of the ship. Keep the current weapon systems as is, just give it another set of bonuses. Is there some hard set rule that all the ships ahve to have the same number of bonuses? While I am not really sure the BEST way to improve the Nag, what is listed so far by CCP, is definitly not it. Of course, in some other thread the prospect of a Nag that does seige and can still move is good Nadlbond FTW !! Nag NEEDS LOVE...... Its freaking vertical man So give it 2 guns and 1 launcher, but double bonus the guns to get the DPS right (no ship bonus to the launcher). Move a high slot and a low to give it +2 mids, and enough cpu to shield tank. You still need missile skills, but you get much better results from adding gyros.
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.04.30 04:42:00 - [177] Your right, the Naglfar is not up to scratch. Doesn't look like it will be when your done with it. We don't want the BEST dread, we want you to FIX your ****. You know WHY this ship is subpar but you won't address the slot issue, the weapon hard points, the practical flaws of citadels, the need to be competitive at ranges other dreads will hotdrop at.... Your not fixing anything, your trying to throw us a bone to shut us up. In fact i think you sort of eluded to that in your post, so i thank you for at least that much. Seriously, if you don't want to fix the ship, they just say so. Tell us "it's simply too much work for us to fix it, we don't have our priorities on maintaining things in the game we are too busy making new shiny stuff" and we will all appreciate the honesty and go train something else. It's great you guys are making the first steps to acknowledge SOME of the game problems, but fact is you release this stuff (change it through sweeping nerfs/boosts) and then never revisit it for months/years. You have players getting very frustrated because it takes well over a year for you to simply ACKNOWLEDGE that a problem MIGHT exist. Real change and fixes are very very few, excuses and 'someday's are plenty
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.04.30 04:45:00 - [178] Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 30/04/2009 04:46:37 Originally by: Yorda 2 gun slots 100% damage role bonus 5% shield boost amount instead of missile RoF 3/6/5 +15% cpu There I did your job for you. stop being smart. you make CCP angry. you won't like it when they are angry. you should have used reverse psychology when you suggested this. say "WHATEVER YOU DO, DONT MAKE THE FOLLOWING CHANGES" everyone knows when you pose a logical and intelligent change they will NEVER EVER do that (possibly, solely because you said it)
BuyMyNarcotics	Posted - 2009.04.30 04:54:00 - [179] Disclaimer: I only read the first page. With that out of the way. How about this? - Tweak Citadels (helping the phoenix and naglfar) - Boost XL Projectiles - New Naglfar gets 4 highs, 3 turret, 3 missile launcher - Other boosts for tank can be recommended by someone who knows better This gives Minnie pilots the option to train one or the other depending on what the FOTM is.
John Blackthorn Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.30 04:58:00 - [180] A few dread fights back I was flying a Phoenix the ship that I've had for a very long time. We got attack by some battleships and I was in siege and fired at an abbadon. It took 2-3 minute for the torps to hit and they hit for 30 damage it. I looked over at my wife's screen she was flying a moros and was hitting for 2k per gun. When I returned from the op I put the Pheonix up for sale and took 35 days to cross train to Moros. I was so ***ed at having to do that to be effective when the Pheonix (as well as Nag pilots) have to put up with when using Cit Torps. (level 5 Cit Torp skill here too). -John



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