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Naglfar, Captial Projectile Turrets and Citadel Torpedos

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)
Austintatious Overview Glitch	Posted - 2009.04.30 09:56:00 - [211] Originally by: ImmortalKalo Originally by: Yorda 2 gun slots 100% damage role bonus 5% shield boost amount instead of missile RoF 3/6/5 +15% cpu There I did your job for you. FO SHO agree
Drad Lord	Posted - 2009.04.30 10:02:00 - [212] Yep, I quite agree but if you will not alone your corp mate can use TP to a game. 1 mid slot rather 1 low is so good that i cant mind about.
Gespenst Jager Pumpkin Scissors Bright Side of Death	Posted - 2009.04.30 10:13:00 - [213] Edited by: Gespenst Jager on 30/04/2009 10:14:04 Minmatar Dreadnought Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Strontium consumption for Siege Module activation and 15% reduction in Siege Module ROF per level. This give some sense to big volley damage, agility and those "hit-n-run" minmatar strategy.
Xelios Minmatar Broski Enterprises Avarice.	Posted - 2009.04.30 10:20:00 - [214] Originally by: Gespenst Jager Edited by: Gespenst Jager on 30/04/2009 10:14:04 Minmatar Dreadnought Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Strontium consumption for Siege Module activation and 15% reduction in Siege Module ROF per level. This give some sense to big volley damage, agility and those "hit-n-run" minmatar strategy. Why not give it a target painting bonus while you're at it?
To mare	Posted - 2009.04.30 10:22:00 - [215] Originally by: Hertford Originally by: Saylin Kitsune Simply bring 'em in-line with oter Dreads: 3 Hybrid X-Large Turrets - Morros 3 Laser X-Large Turrets - Revelation 3 Citadel Launcher - Phoenix 3 Projectile X-Large - Naglfar Engage the art team. Get this done. The quote above is probably the most succinct way of putting it. Like I said earlier, it's not rocket science. For example, chop the model in two, in between the two turrets. Move the halves apart, put in a flat chunk to provide room for the third turret. It'll be even more vertical, which is an added bonus. Anything else is just sheer laziness. Stop beating around with stupid role bonuses, bite the bullet (well, shell) and get an modeller onto the case right now. Cease the procrastination. Fix the Naglfar (and I mean fix, I don't mean botch job patchup). ^^ this ccp take your time but please fix the damn things
Anahid Brutus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.30 10:26:00 - [216] Originally by: Anahid Brutus Edited by: Anahid Brutus on 29/04/2009 20:56:23 Ok going to use the p4 top spot for this: Plz rename thread to: Official confirmation that nags will always be ****, just train into a revelation. qft
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2009.04.30 10:28:00 - [217] Citadel torps are also a big issue... all but useless in longer range cap fights. All other races get two flavours of cap guns, why not introduce 'citadel cruise launchers' with a high velocity (5000+m/s?) with slightly lower damage than torps, at the same time buff the damage and reduce the range on citadel torps.
TuRtLe HeAd KrayZ Inc Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.30 10:41:00 - [218] Grrrr...... so thats why someone bought my Nagflar yesterday..... whoever it was can i have it back please
Evelgrivion Ignatium. Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.04.30 10:42:00 - [219] The Naglfar model; now with 100% less rofl. This took me about one hour with Google Sketchup. Unfortunately, I have no ability what so ever with texturing.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.04.30 10:44:00 - [220] Originally by: Hertford Originally by: Saylin Kitsune Simply bring 'em in-line with oter Dreads: 3 Hybrid X-Large Turrets - Morros 3 Laser X-Large Turrets - Revelation 3 Citadel Launcher - Phoenix 3 Projectile X-Large - Naglfar Engage the art team. Get this done. The quote above is probably the most succinct way of putting it. Truth, this has been quoted for The model is flawed. Unless your going to do the 'nightmare thing' with the turrets, it's just flawed. Your split weapon systems suck, period. There isn't a better example of this than the Naglfar. Hell, if the typhoon didn't have a huge drone bay NO ONE would fly it. You want to taunt 'versatility' as the allure and advantage of the Matar. In some cases this is true, in other cases it's like your only goal was to create the split weapon/slot layout with no regard to how the ship would actually perform. Versatility a great idea but until you are able to implement it other than == a nerf and a waste of excessive SP to do what your Gallente or Amarr friend is doing with a fraction of the SP, sing the song somewhere else (especially on this capital ship issue). Yay, i can fit 2 launchers and 2 turrets.... tell me where the advantage of that is if i still deal less dps than the guy w/ 3 turrets??? Remember, if i want to up my dps for all my weapons i have to fit 2x the low slot modules the other guy does. Oh, and the "we CBA to add a turret, its IMPOSSIBLE" is a complete line of crap. It's not that you can't, it's because someone said they didn't want to. Think of how that looks to a customer "yeah we should do this, but we aren't going to, sorry". If I told my customer's I couldn't redesign something because it was IMPOSSIBLE that customer would leave. Strapping cardboard wings to my arms and flying to the moon is impossible. Adding a turret to the Naglfer is inconvenient AT BEST. thanks for reading this and thanks for making the attempt to start addressing the balancing issues. we do appreciate it, just sometimes you make everyone want to face palm. I'm dont want to be 'that guy' but i'm putting a lot of faith in this rebalancing effort. However, if you do what you've been known to and make the changes you announce regarless (almost in spite of) what your community suggests, after pages and pages of discussion... i'm friggin done with this game. I want to have faith in CCP, there are so many things you have done well, but if you can't see the inherent flaws in some of your own designs (or if you can and just can't bother with actually fixing them) why should we have any faith that you will do anything but continue to implement poor changes? /rant off

Soyemia Minmatar Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.04.30 10:49:00 - [221] Yay!!!!!! Volley damage relevant (400% to HP of caps) oh wait.... Not to mention about POSes Can't fit a tank with arty, not enough grid for 2x cap armor rep and can't fit shield tank. Still needs twice the amount of damage mods.You're making ti even worse. Back to training Revelation.
Pallidum Treponema Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:01:00 - [222] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 30/04/2009 10:51:27 The Naglfar model; now with 100% less rofl. And a fourth one from the side. This took me about one hour with Google Sketchup. Unfortunately, I have no ability what so ever with texturing. ^^ This Yes, it'll change the Naglfar graphics. We get even more verticical, along with having a FUNCTIONAL ship! Win all around.
Myz Toyou Ministry of Destruction	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:03:00 - [223] Originally by: Yorda 2 gun slots 100% damage role bonus 5% shield boost amount instead of missile RoF 3/6/5 +15% cpu There I did your job for you. This tbh. I¦m pure Matari specced and only refusing to go for the Nagl till now cos it would be a total waste of time/SPs and the fact its freakin vertical don`t equal the letdowns.
Ound	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:03:00 - [224] Good to see that the problem is being looked at. Well it will be very uncool if you drop Citadels when you have just trained them, I would rather see boost for them. Because if you put 3x Projectiles on Nagrofl and some new shiny bonues, it's obvious that Pheonix will be the worst Dreadnought to fight against other Capitals.
zetonton	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:06:00 - [225] Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii Nag is the worst dps, worst tank, and twice as much SP of any dread. that is a good summarize of the situation. And this conclusion comes from only one characteristic of the naglfar : split weapon system. It (almost) works on the Typhoon because of its slot layout and its drone, but for the Naglfar, it makes my eyes bleeding ! we spend a lot more sp in order to get the worst dread (... and the worst capital ships in fact :x) even with your change, you will just improve our situation to "oh crap, my dread makes laugh any non-minmatar" to "ho crap, my dread STILL makes laugh any non-minmatar". Please, PLEASE, give us a third arty and correct bonus (dps + ?) and everyone would be happy. We will not have the best Dread but you will restore our pride (and please, about 3D graphic model, there is enough place on the current model -on the bottom part-)
Amy Wang	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:12:00 - [226] Edited by: Amy Wang on 30/04/2009 11:16:07 Oh, nice you came on the idea with the rof changes to 10%/7.5% (which I suggested like one or two years ago already). It is a start, even a good start, but frankly that alone just makes up for the less effective damage mods due to split weapon system. The gun changes are also a good way, like the increased range and better alpha and the effective dps increase is also not too shabby, the increased grid use, reduced ship grid and the fact that it only effects 50% of the weapons on the ship kinda mitigate it though. There is still the issues that the Naglfar is far more skill intensive then other dreads (again due to split weapon system) and has one less med/low slot and frankly the increased dps from the 4th high is not all that big even with the new bonus to justify that. There is also the issue that the ship is a crappy armor or shield tanker, even worse at armor with the proposed pg changes, but minni pilots are probably used to that I guess To make up for these shortcomings there is still something missing, ideas: - add a med or low (I would prefer a low hands down) - reduce the rank of the minmatar dreadnought skill to make up for the increased training time due to split weapon system (or reduce rank of xl projectile and dread skill both but by smaller amount) - give it the same (or slightly smaller) drone bonus and bay of the Moros and make it into a capital sized phoon that way So yea, so far not too impressed and not yet even tempted to reconsider training Minni dread 5 instead of Amarr dread 5, so keep it coming
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:14:00 - [227] Originally by: Vlip To everyone asking for three turret nags. It took us the better part of a year to get them to involve the balance team. How long do you think it'd take us to get them to involve the graphical team too? And no, it's not a "quick" change, it won't take only a week. So to me the only two proposals that are realistic are the "nightmare" option (2 guns with 100% role bonus) or the "more slots and way more CPU" option. I prefer the second one personally as it won't make millions of my SP useless. Give the nag +1 low and +1(2?) mid and at least 100CPU more. That way you can fit a full rack of damage mods for our "lovely" dual weapon systems. Ideally in that fit the nag would do best DPS and be able to fit an average shield tank without requiring silly faction mods. Or you could armor tank it and have the best tank of all dreads but do the worst damage. It doesn't require a lot of graphical redesign and it makes the naglfar useful again. While its more work than simple balance work.. its NOT hard at all. Commign from someoen that worked 2 and half years in game industry.. doing guess what? interfacign development and art teams... I can say that takes 1 full day of a modeler and 1 full day of a texturer.. at MOST If CCP teams needs vastly larger ammounts of time then they need to be replaced ... I can point to few very good outsorcing studios that are able to achieve this minimal efficiency ratio and very likely charge 1/4th of what someoen in iceland likely bids for..
Sbl Dark Glitter Inc	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:18:00 - [228] Originally by: zetonton Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii Nag is the worst dps, worst tank, and twice as much SP of any dread. that is a good summarize of the situation. And this conclusion comes from only one characteristic of the naglfar : split weapon system. It (almost) works on the Typhoon because of its slot layout and its drone, but for the Naglfar, it makes my eyes bleeding ! we spend a lot more sp in order to get the worst dread (... and the worst capital ships in fact :x) even with your change, you will just improve our situation to "oh crap, my dread makes laugh any non-minmatar" to "ho crap, my dread STILL makes laugh any non-minmatar". Please, PLEASE, give us a third arty and correct bonus (dps + ?) and everyone would be happy. We will not have the best Dread but you will restore our pride (and please, about 3D graphic model, there is enough place on the current model -on the bottom part-) only reason it works with the phoon is because the phoon has a decent armor tank, small sig raduis to start with. As for the offensive power- im guessing phoon pilots mostly fit 4 missile weapons or 4 gunnery weapons rather than 4 of each on the ship. The other 4 slots i suspect are filled with neuts, nos, remote reps etc. Cit torps need to have their explosion velocity increased to be able to hit about 60-80ms capitals. There needs to be a Citadel cruise varient. As for artillery, its completetly hopeless with tracking as it is, being slightly bumped on a tower, just knocked 20ms means theres a good chance ill miss the tower... so making it worse is pretty terrible. Increase a low slot and remove a med slot. i dont need 5 meds with 4 cap rechargers when im not using any capacitor to fire my guns and im lucky to get one rep off on my repper before i pop with the hopeless EHP. I dont want to have to train for the cap shield booster now. Its completely out of line with the nidhoggour and you are more likely to have a nid and nag than a nag and Hel. split weapon bonuses are ******ed.
muxacb07 Eye of God Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:22:00 - [229] Please CCP I beg you make the naglfar a projectile boat that's all I ask, not this split group pretty please.
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:22:00 - [230] Originally by: BuyMyNarcotics Disclaimer: I only read the first page. With that out of the way. How about this? - Tweak Citadels (helping the phoenix and naglfar) - Boost XL Projectiles - New Naglfar gets 4 highs, 3 turret, 3 missile launcher - Other boosts for tank can be recommended by someone who knows better This gives Minnie pilots the option to train one or the other depending on what the FOTM is. Tweakign citatels will NEVER do it for the naglfar. It can solve for phoenix but not the naglfar. Why? Because you need DOUBLE damage mods and DOUBLE the range mods/rigs to get it in line with other dreads. Its everyday more common extremely logn range fights. I need to spend 2 rig slots to make citatels hit the necessary range.. plus 2 range mods for arties. THen need 4 damage mods.. 2 for each weapon system. Then you comapre to a moros or revelation taht needs 2 range mods/rigs and 2 damage mods.... that means naglfar needs 4 slots MORE than the other dreads to deploy. But WAIT it already starts with 1 LESS slot! So it has a 5 slot shortage!!! repeat 5 SLOT SHORTAGE!!! Only way to sovel that is removing split weapons.

Vlip Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:24:00 - [231] or giving it said 5 slots or even more with the cpu/grid to fill them...
Lasakywa Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:28:00 - [232] Edited by: Lasakywa on 30/04/2009 11:28:51 Just make the Naglfar a 3-turrets dreads, plz k thx. 99% of the community wants this to be done like this.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:40:00 - [233] Originally by: Lasakywa Edited by: Lasakywa on 30/04/2009 11:28:51 Just make the Naglfar a 3-turrets dreads, plz k thx. 99% of the community wants this to be done like this. And do the same for the Phoenix.
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:44:00 - [234] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Lasakywa Edited by: Lasakywa on 30/04/2009 11:28:51 Just make the Naglfar a 3-turrets dreads, plz k thx. 99% of the community wants this to be done like this. And do the same for the Phoenix. the phoenix CAN be solved by changing the torps themselves (because beign single weapon system means it does nto have slot shortage. Multiply citatel explosion velocity by 5 ( yes! 400% ) and make their BASE speed 3000ms.
Gespenst Jager Pumpkin Scissors Bright Side of Death	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:54:00 - [235] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Lasakywa Edited by: Lasakywa on 30/04/2009 11:28:51 Just make the Naglfar a 3-turrets dreads, plz k thx. 99% of the community wants this to be done like this. And do the same for the Phoenix. No, giving pvp-ship to Caldari is too dangerous :)
SickSeven The Undead Righteous Knights	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:56:00 - [236] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 30/04/2009 11:06:19 Edited by: Evelgrivion on 30/04/2009 10:51:27 The Naglfar model; now with 100% less rofl. And a fourth one from the side. This took me about one hour with Google Sketchup. Unfortunately, I have no ability what so ever with texturing. ^^^^^^^ LOOK HERE CCP!!!!!!!! This guy just did your job for you!!! Now apply rate of fire and damage bonus and the the NAG is fixed!!
Sock Monster	Posted - 2009.04.30 11:59:00 - [237] Fair enough CCP, you've always wanted minmatar to tread the jack of all trades/master of none line, though the nag even post change is still not right. The problem is not enough slots to make it competitive without sacrificing either tank/gank to an extent no other dreadnaught has to deal with, even with the longer skill training requirements. If you want it to still be versatile, give us the options of either taking it down the citadel/projectile shield/armour tank with being comfortable second in mind rather than miserable last. If you don't want to change the model for extra turrets that's fine, you can make an interesting ship around it without having to change that. Yorda is right, bring it down to two capital weapons. For example: 3 highs (2 turret, 2 missile hardpoints) 6 meds 7 lows Bonus: XL- Projectile damage per level (#%), Capital Launcher Damage per level (#%) XL- Projectile fall off per level (5%) Citadel Torpedo Explosion velocity per level (5%) 99% CPU requirement for siege modules per level The first thing you'd think is holy bonus batman, but the slot layout will make 2/4 bonuses obsolete depending on your personal fitting preferences. The exact percentage numbers of the bonuses would need to be worked out, but the goal should be slightly below parity with the specialist dreadnaughts. With the quad siege dps should be roughly equal in a maxed skilled character to a moros without drones, if both use 3 damage mods. Because the nag will naturally be in a longer falloff than the moros or revelation at range it will still be the lowest dps turret dreadnaught as by design, but not unfairly so. The capital launcher is the same, all skill levels equal it should come in as less damaging than the phoenix by about 100-200 dps if the phoenix does not use kinetic torpedos, adjust the bonus for this effect. The secondary bonus ensures that whichever route you take you'll be compensated with a useful bonus which does not make anything too powerful but makes sure that you cannot take advantage of both without seriously reducing the effectiveness of the ship. It would have less slots than the average dreadnaught though less need of them due to the bonus. Fitting powergrid/cpu balance along these lines: 1) projectiles/armour tank: comes at the cost of fitting damage mods but with the highest possible EHPf or a single tank (flip the armour/shield values around) 2) projectiles/shield tank: best burst tank possible and effective damage but with less effective HP (the main tank used in large scale capital combat) 3) missiles/armour: less range, more damage though damage mods overlap with tank again 4) missiles/shield: good tank/good damage though keep the requirement that it should take one co-processor to fit with damage mods. There you have it, a jack of all trades/master of none dreadnaught with a lot of flexibility in fitting without outclassing dedicated dreadnaughts, capable of long range fleet combat as a serious contender. I havn't included exact numbers to most of the bonuses as I havn't mucked around with all the possibilities of something becoming unbalanced, but the theory is sound, keeping the minmatar as flexible and good natured losers without making them uncompetitive.
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.30 12:06:00 - [238] Versatility has no place on a dreadnaught! These are the LEAST VEERSATILE ROLE based ships in game. There is no p;lace for makign a ship inferion on name of a versatility that has no use!! THe problem IS the lack of slots to achieve damage and range parity that is derived from both the stupid split weapon systems and the fact taht nalgafar has 1 less slot to start with.
Das Panzer Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.04.30 12:26:00 - [239] Just give the Nag 3x Turret hard points and make a decision whether its gonna be a shield or an armor tanker. As it its its trying to do many things at once and doing them all 1/2 assed.
Sleyn Peade Twilight Fleet Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.30 12:31:00 - [240] Originally by: CCP Chronotis A bunch of sentences lacking any grasp in reality Are you kidding???? That's like trying to put out a fire with a flamethrower. That makes the following idea look realistic: Originally by: SHC Remove the high slots, make it perfectly clear that the Nag is eye candy in a cap fight. I'll have to admit that this comes from someone who likes the naglfar for all the crazy that it is, rusty, vertical, extra-high, split-weapon and all, and I keep seing people look to the extra high (or the lack of a med/low it causes) as the tank-problem, but I think the best way to fix the ship is to fix damage and tank seperately: The damage: ->Change the projectile RoF-bonus to 10% (that'll beef up the damage nicely enough) ->Capital projectile-gunz change: Ca. +20% dmg-modifier and +15% RoF (as higher RoF means less shooting it wouldn't be the biggest dps-change, but it'll mean a bigger alpha and less reloading) ->Optimal on the capital arty changed to 72.000m, more hits, more usefull ->Change drone capacity to 375 m3 (Room for 3 handfulls of sentry-drones. The fact that it can't carry 2 right now is just meh) The tank: -> +120.000 shield hp -> (shield recharge on caps may need to get looked at) -> +80.000 structure hp It's always going to have a worse active tank than anything else, no way around that, even if it got its low/med back it's just the minmatar-style. Giving it a huge shieldbuffer, which is pretty minmatar-characteristic last I checked, and a large structurebuffer, which goes with the ships looks, will make up for the lack of the low/med that was stolen to the highslots. -> +120 CPU. Even with that it won't be able to fit too good a shield-tank (do the damn math, +70 is just lol), but it'll bring it close enough that named mods and thinking the setup through and passing on the T2-ballistic controls that use 40 ****ing cpu will mean that you can fit the ship without a cpu-enhancer. That way the ship will be where it belongs, in the minmatar-style wtf-crazy category.



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