Speaking of which, how do you feel about neutrals having access to your precious upgrades? As explained in the blog, the original goal was to promote an industrial backbone in low-security space, but you may feel differently.

Speaking of which, how do you feel about neutrals having access to your precious upgrades? As explained in the blog, the original goal was to promote an industrial backbone in low-security space, but you may feel differently

GÇóMove station deny docking from being automatic when a system is captured to something that only happens when the enemy upgrade a system to level X

I can't like zarnak's idea enough. Lets add actual consequences to the game, so you can't just shoot at faction NPCs or militia members all day and still dock in their systems like nothing happened.

Makes sense for the militia stations, but for all the 'neutral' (read: NPC) corps who have stations in area not so much .. business is business. Were it to be implemented then station locations should be looked at to create "pockets" where hostile entities could never dock and thus act as kill zones to use against them.

Another idea:

Wouldnt it be more useful to upgrade systems like this:

Level 1: 25% Reduction in Marketorders, Contracts, Jumpclones, Repaircosts etc.
Level 2: Enemy cant use Agents in Station
Level 3: Enemy cant use Services in Station
Level 4: Enemy cant dock in Stations
Level 5: Sov holder can Use Cynojammers on their POS

So that means people have a chance to get in their ships by plexing a system down a bit and arent fully locked out when sov changes. I think this will encourage pvp more then people having locked out permanently and they wont bother coming to that system

They should reap any rewards.

Post Fixed. Why should nuetrals have access to any of it? They did nothing to secure the system? Only thing I can think of is that they may help defend the system if they reap the benefits (?).

Maybe FW players could rent out upgraded space? Would it be worth it?

So low sec industry having an advantage over high sec industry is a bad thing? ...

So low sec industry having an advantage over high sec industry is a bad thing? If the benefits are good enough, then low sec might not be 'dead' anymore

This is a discussion about system upgrades received when donating LP into the FW infrastructure hub, and how to make them more appealing after Inferno. Please refer to the FW blog for more details.


At the moment they are:

• Upgrade level 1 - 10,000 LPs required: +1 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 10% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 10% reduction in market / contract broker fees


• Upgrade level 2 - 25,000 LPs required: +2 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 20% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 20% reduction in market / contract broker fees


• Upgrade level 3 - 45,000 LPs required: +3 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 30% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 30% reduction in market / contract broker fees


• Upgrade level 4 - 70,000 LPs required: +4 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 40% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 40% reduction in market / contract broker fees


• Upgrade level 5 - 100,000 LPs required: +5 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 50% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 50% reduction in market / contract broker fees


• Buffer - 100,000+ to 150,000 LPs

* Slots are only given for stations that already have that given activity before upgrade. For instance: a station only having science slots will not receive extra manufacturing slots.

It's a start, but nothing fancy. We would like to iterate on that after Inferno, and we have already heard some good comments, but your input is welcome.


Some ideas, not necessarily in any order:

• Bring back the cyno jammer, if polished enough to be shot down by neutral third parties. Fanfest taught us it is a very tricky move, so we want to hear from all interested parties here
• Move station deny docking from being automatic when a system is captured to something that only happens when the enemy upgrade a system to level X
• Provide science, manufacturing time reduction bonuses to further encourage industry in low-security space

Speaking of which, how do you feel about neutrals having access to your precious upgrades? As explained in the blog, the original goal was to promote an industrial backbone in low-security space, but you may feel differently.



Thanks for your time!

"War zone control and LP store prices

On the bigger scale, we wanted to help participating players feel more like they were in the middle of a fluctuating war zone rather than just participating in a line of unconnected skirmishes. That is why progress will now be tracked by counting the number of solar systems held, how many upgrades are installed for each faction and compared to the faction's enemy over the regions being competed for.


[picture]
Click to enlarge

As individual factions conquer space and upgrade systems, their respective war zone control tier will increase to unlock several benefits.

First, the offer requirements in the respective faction LP store will decrease. As such, at the lowest tier, LP store offers will be 4x times more expensive as they are now, while at the highest tier, they will be 4 times as cheap. This only applies to ISK and LP requirements for offers, not tags or items. It also only counts for the 4 Factional Warfare militia LP stores; no other corporation will be affected."

Why not have defensive plexing put some LP back into the hub? Still no personal benefit, fine, but at least a benefit.

Perhaps one of the upgrades could be a notification system that lets us know if the enemy is attacking plexes in our control that way we could protect the lp we invest from ninja plexers.

Some ideas, not necessarily in any order:

• Bring back the cyno jammer, if polished enough to be shot down by neutral third parties. Fanfest taught us it is a very tricky move, so we want to hear from all interested parties here
• Move station deny docking from being automatic when a system is captured to something that only happens when the enemy upgrade a system to level X
• Provide science, manufacturing time reduction bonuses to further encourage industry in low-security space

Speaking of which, how do you feel about neutrals having access to your precious upgrades? As explained in the blog, the original goal was to promote an industrial backbone in low-security space, but you may feel differently.

Thanks for your time!

If one side of FW gets curb stomped by the other it should at least have a target rich environment that it can choose where and when to strike. There are intel tools that allow militia pilots to see if plexes have been run in a system. It would be too much to allow more of a heads up. If your side conquered 70+ systems, you should have to patrol them.

I was hoping ccp would bring more actual pvp to faction war not more "patroling" (aka warping around looking for something to fight.) Right now eve gets to be pretty boring from "patroling" all night with no fights.

Now when we won't even be able to dock in enemy space I anticipate even more fruitless "patroling." Unless of course you want to join the blobs on the "front lines."

Here is a wild suggestion that would really raise the stakes. Captured border systems can be upgraded to expand your militia's influence. Here's how it would work:

Minmatar capture Kamela. At a higher upgrade level all neighboring Amarr high sec systems are lowered by 1 sec status. Tuomuta would become a sec 4.0 and be put into play. Ohide and Choonka would go to 5.0. At the next level all neighboring Amarr high sec systems would go down two sec status. Tuomuta is already low sec and would not be touched. Ohide and Choonka would go to 4.0 sec status and be put into play.

Make two sec points the limit of influence. Your war zone could be pushed up to 7.0 systems before you couldn't expand - that would be the hard limit. Looking at the map you could overrun or isolate vast chunks of the Amarr empire. If you want people to sit up, take notice, and get involved - that might be the way to do it.

All I'm saying is that there needs to be a mechanism that kicks in to bring equilibrium after one side "wins" the FW war. If Minmatar completely conquers the 70 systems, for example, they should have a difficult time defending those 70 systems. Implementing an intel tool that helps them does nothing for allowing the Amarr to make a comeback.

How would fighting cruisers with frigs/dessies improve combat? If anything you end up taking blobbing beyond mandatory when hitting those systems.

Suggested elsewhere that defensive plexing should be done with considerable time benefit (ie. 3-5 times faster) than offensive ditto.
Would make attacking space a much more involved and focused endeavour instead of the "run everything in constellation" approach we are seeing now .. combined with diminishing returns (and its inverse) you'd reach an equilibrium based on available manpower with pushes (which we love) bringing loads of pain, suffering, blood and tears (which we also love).
* Note: Faster defensive + inverse warzone control modifier would ideally cancel each other out.

Favouring snowballing is all fine and dandy, but we need some mechanic that allows the downtrodden to make a come back or it will degrade to pure meta-gaming and farming.

..We were looking for ways to balance things and help the side that is losing. Your proposal makes the system even more unbalanced against the losing side.

Yes, if and only if, tactics remain the same. An offensive campaign is now hit a system and hit everything within 1-2 jumps while waiting for spawns in target all the while a semi-heavy blob lingers in target system to be called to any counter.

Try doing that when defender can reship to appropriate ships for each and every plex. Attacking sovereign soil is not a 'job' for weekend warriors .. sure they can make it so like they did in null, but look how that turned out. Either make offensives "major" things or make the pew flow fast and freely .. neither holds true and never has (least not mechanics wise) ..

But giving more advantages to the defenders, will be giving more advantages to the winning side.

..For example, the minmatar are winning now because they hold more systems than the amarr. If we make it easier of them to defend those systems we are making it easier for them not for the amarr.

... A system's upgrades should be exciting enough to defend. Plain and simple.

Hey folks,

Just a quick update on this; there are good ideas thrown so far, some stuff we like:

• Reducing manufacturing / research times for jobs in upgraded systems
• Increasing numbers of slots given in upgraded systems further, 5 max is nothing to write home about
• Moving the docking-lockout from being automatic when system is captured to level 3 upgrade and higher
• Reducing repair costs in upgraded systems
• Reducing refining costs in upgraded systems
• Iterating at the I-hub bleed out next to captured sites
• Bringing back the cyno jammer, but make sure its use is very short by nature not to totally lockout the system - again this needs to be carefully designed
• Think again on how to upgrade systems that have no stations

Thanks for your time and ideas people!

The problem is not that there aren't enough extra slots. It's that the ones already there weren't being used in the first place.

...

Think again on how to upgrade systems that have no stations

I'd prefer a system upgrade to lock out those with poor standing towards the militia. WT lockout should be automatic.

Answer: POS in upgraded system have their fuel supplied by militia (ie. 100% reduction in fuel consumption) and depending on actual POS changes perhaps some bonus grid/cpu to install a critical module.

Hey folks,

Just a quick update on this; there are good ideas thrown so far, some stuff we like:

• Reducing manufacturing / research times for jobs in upgraded systems
• Increasing numbers of slots given in upgraded systems further, 5 max is nothing to write home about
• Moving the docking-lockout from being automatic when system is captured to level 3 upgrade and higher
• Reducing repair costs in upgraded systems
• Reducing refining costs in upgraded systems
• Iterating at the I-hub bleed out next to captured sites
• Bringing back the cyno jammer, but make sure its use is very short by nature not to totally lockout the system - again this needs to be carefully designed
• Think again on how to upgrade systems that have no stations

Thanks for your time and ideas people!

I'd prefer a system upgrade to lock out those with poor standing towards the militia. WT lockout should be automatic.

Hey folks,

Moving the docking-lockout from being automatic when system is captured to level 3 upgrade and higher

Thanks for your time and ideas people!

+1 for this Idea. I don't think anyone but the tiny, vocal minority still is against station lockouts. Having that absolute penalty does give much more impetus to the willingness to plex, and that is what has been driving the fights lately. The problem with upgrades is that, at least on the Gallente front, upgrades are too easily stripped away. It's become a meaningless isk sink that can be undone with a few t1 frigs and some time.

The station lockouts have done more to reduce the pvp than increase it.

There are 2 fronts Caldari/gallente and Minmatar/amarr.

CCP should just let one front keep the lock out rule and remove the lockout rule from the other front.

+1 for this Idea. I don't think anyone but the tiny, vocal minority still is against station lockouts. Having that absolute penalty does give much more impetus to the willingness to plex, and that is what has been driving the fights lately. The problem with upgrades is that, at least on the Gallente front, upgrades are too easily stripped away. It's become a meaningless isk sink that can be undone with a few t1 frigs and some time.

Hey folks,

Just a quick update on this; there are good ideas thrown so far, some stuff we like:

• Reducing manufacturing / research times for jobs in upgraded systems
• Increasing numbers of slots given in upgraded systems further, 5 max is nothing to write home about
• Moving the docking-lockout from being automatic when system is captured to level 3 upgrade and higher
• Reducing repair costs in upgraded systems
• Reducing refining costs in upgraded systems
• Iterating at the I-hub bleed out next to captured sites
• Bringing back the cyno jammer, but make sure its use is very short by nature not to totally lockout the system - again this needs to be carefully designed
• Think again on how to upgrade systems that have no stations

Thanks for your time and ideas people!

The reason why plexing has gone through the roof is that people are being paid like robber barons for their time now .. has very little to do with docking.

Not sure if putting it at level 3 is "good", perhaps 2 or even 1 is better .. have to run the numbers .. should be hard enough for an assault to take an effort before opening up stations and give defence a reasonable time to respond.
Reason why I support lock-outs as part of the upgrade path is that it will effectively remove the ability of a single faction from dominating through alts .. if enemy is allowed to plex in a system you had damn well better be there to kick his ass or he will breed like Brutor.

With regards to upgrades being a massive sink .. we have been discussing this elsewhere and the idea of awarding a partial "repair amount" from defensive plexes is gaining traction .. as is the idea of some kind of reward for defensive work in general.
Example: Enemy takes a medium thus knocking off 8750LP (50% of 17.5k) of the upgrade pool. He is discovered and killed/bought/run off and defensive crews take the minor and major , repairing half of what the same sites would have caused in damage (25% of 10k+25k = 8750LP) and in the process get the same amount (25%) of the LP value of the sites (provided system is contested).

System should be fashioned in such a way that defensive work feels like a necessity (worthwhile upgrades, keeping enemy from docking) while not feeling like work .. since the timer system makes it feel like work, some kind of compensation is in order .. doesn't have to huge as defence is a newcomer/alt occupation except when enemy is insistent

The thread in Warfare-Tactics on the topic of plexes and NPCs is gravitating towards the idea of plex timers automatically resetting over time when no enemy is present. Benefit of such a system is that defenders get to focus on killing/evicting the attackers who in turn will never have to experience the glory of the speed-bumped plex (timer run to a few seconds) .. this idea alone has the potential to create enormous amounts of pew as one can't just plex a bit everywhere and pick up the next day in whichever system wasn't decontested .. also makes the multi-pronged attacks a lot more valuable and risky.
Note: With such a system there will/should be no rewards for defensive work of any sort .. to control space, you have to patrol space or invest in tissues.

Thanks, Veshta, for the good post!

My fear is that it will increase the pew pew during an actual system takeover (must be done in one big risky push like you pointed out) but not do anything to encourage small gangs or solo pilots from reaping the benefits of their casual roaming and plexing, other than the LP payout itself.

There is an intriguing idea being proposed in F & I...

Something for everyone to stop by and consider at least, should make for a good discussion assuming everyone keeps things civil and constructive.

And do you have any statistical basis for this, either?.

This idea just seems silly. CCP is not going to make game design decisions just to cater to personal taste. Having special rules for one warfront just for the sake of being different than the other would be incredibly hard to justify, I sincerely doubt you'll ever reach ANY kind of player consensus over which warzone should have lockout or shouldn't.

The Caldari / Gallente warfront involves FAR more multi-jump travel and it is currently teeming with small gang roams. The Amarr / Minmatar front is the most compact, most connected to highsec, and has two bastions of factional power in adjacent systems. The idea that someone is forced to live out of the back of a Jump Freighter, moving their ships around constantly in order to get anything done, just doesn't hold water, and much less in our own warzone. .

With as many people as are out having fun right now, taking plexes, getting kills, seizing space, getting solo fights, small gang fights, as well as big fleet battles, and just about every activity in between, the argument that these changes have killed one activity or another dwindle every day. For every pilot that says "I can't do this anymore" there's a half dozen others that are doing exactly that, and having fun at the same time.

That doesnt mean FW is in a perfect place, it doesn't mean there aren't problems, and it doesn't mean anyone's about to stop improving the system. But this notion that station docking has crippled anyone or anything is going to need some actual evidence before either the CSM or CCP take the complaints seriously.

The reason why plexing has gone through the roof is that people are being paid like robber barons for their time now .. has very little to do with docking.

Not sure if putting it at level 3 is "good", perhaps 2 or even 1 is better .. have to run the numbers .. should be hard enough for an assault to take an effort before opening up stations and give defence a reasonable time to respond.
Reason why I support lock-outs as part of the upgrade path is that it will effectively remove the ability of a single faction from dominating through alts .. if enemy is allowed to plex in a system you had damn well better be there to kick his ass or he will breed like Brutor.

With regards to upgrades being a massive sink .. we have been discussing this elsewhere and the idea of awarding a partial "repair amount" from defensive plexes is gaining traction .. as is the idea of some kind of reward for defensive work in general.
Example: Enemy takes a medium thus knocking off 8750LP (50% of 17.5k) of the upgrade pool. He is discovered and killed/bought/run off and defensive crews take the minor and major , repairing half of what the same sites would have caused in damage (25% of 10k+25k = 8750LP) and in the process get the same amount (25%) of the LP value of the sites (provided system is contested).

System should be fashioned in such a way that defensive work feels like a necessity (worthwhile upgrades, keeping enemy from docking) while not feeling like work .. since the timer system makes it feel like work, some kind of compensation is in order .. doesn't have to huge as defence is a newcomer/alt occupation except when enemy is insistent

The thread in Warfare-Tactics on the topic of plexes and NPCs is gravitating towards the idea of plex timers automatically resetting over time when no enemy is present. Benefit of such a system is that defenders get to focus on killing/evicting the attackers who in turn will never have to experience the glory of the speed-bumped plex (timer run to a few seconds) .. this idea alone has the potential to create enormous amounts of pew as one can't just plex a bit everywhere and pick up the next day in whichever system wasn't decontested .. also makes the multi-pronged attacks a lot more valuable and risky.
Note: With such a system there will/should be no rewards for defensive work of any sort .. to control space, you have to patrol space or invest in tissues.

When a system goes vulnerable, it should no longer spawn plexes for people to continue farming. There is a Gallente system that has been vulnerable for a week and WTs continue to farm it into perpetuity because of the spawns. No one cares to defensive plex it because it's a stationless system that leads into a nullsec entrance. Conversely, I can understand why the enemy doesn't want to capture it either. But if this is the case, then plexes shouldn't continue to spawn.

Gotta hand it to the Caldari, that is a bloody genius way of gaming the system .. hahahahahahahaha.

We've been talking a lot about diminishing returns issues, the "problem" (or lack thereof) regarding defensive plexing being boring and unrewarding, and about ways to reduce "snowballing".

One observation that has been made is that since WZ control points are easier to obtain by upgrading systems to level 1 upgrades instead of upgrading a single system to level 5, this essentially means that the factions that have the most systems have a much easier time maintaining their WZ control point level through LP investment.

In other words, the Minmatar, who own 60 systems instead of the 10 for the Amarr, can easily replace lost WZ control points at a cheap LP rate by reinforcing backwater systems. The Amarr on the other hand, have to invest all of their systems all the way to level 5 (costing more LP / WZ control point gained) and even that only works if they have enough systems to begin with.

Does anyone feel this is working well, or should it cost more LP investment to gain WZ control points as you continue to win and win and win? Is it fair that the more systems you own the cheaper it is to maintain your LP store price point?

We've been talking a lot about diminishing returns issues, the "problem" (or lack thereof) regarding defensive plexing being boring and unrewarding, and about ways to reduce "snowballing".

One observation that has been made is that since WZ control points are easier to obtain by upgrading systems to level 1 upgrades instead of upgrading a single system to level 5, this essentially means that the factions that have the most systems have a much easier time maintaining their WZ control point level through LP investment.

In other words, the Minmatar, who own 60 systems instead of the 10 for the Amarr, can easily replace lost WZ control points at a cheap LP rate by reinforcing backwater systems. The Amarr on the other hand, have to invest all of their systems all the way to level 5 (costing more LP / WZ control point gained) and even that only works if they have enough systems to begin with.

Does anyone feel this is working well, or should it cost more LP investment to gain WZ control points as you continue to win and win and win? Is it fair that the more systems you own the cheaper it is to maintain your LP store price point?

Minmatar: Clear tangible benefit to continually upgrade system: They get it up to 61% (usually no higher) and then cash out. There are enough plexing alts cashing in all the time to make this work.

Amarr: ZERO benefit to upgrading system: They dont upgrade their systems because there is no concrete reason to do so. It will always be below 20% and therefore why bother?

On the other front (for some perspective):
Gallente don't upgrade their systems on a regular basis because the upgrades will quickly be eaten away by Caldari afk plexing alts. Gallente have tried to do this in spurts. There is no tangible benefit to keeping systems continually upgraded.

Caldari - I imaging Caldari are similar to Gallente with the exception that upgrades are slowly eaten away by semi-skilled afk plexing alts in an incursus. They have upgraded in spurts rather than consistently as well. There is no tangible benefit to keeping systems continually upgraded yet. If they continue to steamroll plexes they will likely have a reason soon (once they get to 61 systems).


Also: Look at "Willingness to Upgrade" versus "Quality of NPC rats" (how hard it is to take a plex).
Minmatar > Caldari > Gallente > Amarr

What, in your opinion, is the best solution to dealing with the Caldari / Gallente situation in the long run? Is it primarily an issue of the size of the warzone, or a problem with speedfarmers? You're in a better place to advise on this warzone than myself.

Also - in your quality of NPC rat chart - is that taking Ewar into consideration, or is that how you see the rat quality once their E-war has been removed, which is what is going to happen in Inferno 1.1?

I've been tossing around this idea internally for a couple days. One of the professed problems of FW is the rat difficulty. So why don't we put it in the player's hands? Bust down the NPC rats to a their basic 4-5 waves. No E-War.

Military Upgrades:
You get several either or choices. System wide armour bonuses? Or Stasis towers in plexes?
Systemwide skirmish bonuses? Or more difficult rats in plexes?
Police faction present in system in the form of NPC ships or sentry guns? Or choose the types of rats in the plexes?

That obviously isn't a full or even well thought out list. Put you should get the idea. The militia can choose upgrades to the I-HUB that either give combat bonuses to defending fleets or impair the enemy from plexing at a whim. The Military upgrades should only go away after losing a system. They should not contribute to warzone control. Here's the rub - These upgrades will be expensive. If you're at tier 2, they will cost half as much. If you're at tier 1 - a quarter as much. Tier 4? Double in price. Tier 5? Quadruple. You create a dynamic LP store that offers you SOMETHING if you're in the lowest tier. You essentially give the losing team a way to harden their remaining systems and make a come back. If you're the dominant side you don't want them to conquer a system back. The first thing they will do is harden it against counterattack.

Defensive Plexing:
You get LP from defensive plexing based on the contested level of the system. If it's stable you get nothing. If it's at 10%, you get 10% of what the plex would normally give. If it's at 80%, you get... you guessed it, 80%.

Farming in another War Zone:
LP should be unique to the war zone you're in. If you're in Minmatar and you run a Caldari plex - then you get Gallente LP to be spent in the Gallente store. Simple and easy

Missions:
The missions should send you to enemy systems. Running a mission in Asghed for the Minmatar is silly right now. They control it. Being sent to Ardar as the Amarr is suicidal and dumb considering there are many much closer systems.

I actually really like your defensive plexing idea, that makes a whole lot of sense. Other than that though, I don't think we should be giving out free link bonuses system wide just through upgrades. That seems a bit ridiculous. Also I think the cost of upgrading idea is just a little too harsh. You want people to actually upgrade things and try to defend them, not make it so they just don't bother anymore once they start winning. I think a better approach is a carrot to the losing side rather than an overt stick to the winning side.

Farming in another War Zone:
LP should be unique to the war zone you're in. If you're in Minmatar and you run a Caldari plex - then you get Gallente LP to be spent in the Gallente store. Simple and easy

Missions:
The missions should send you to enemy systems. Running a mission in Asghed for the Minmatar is silly right now. They control it. Being sent to Ardar as the Amarr is suicidal and dumb considering there are many much closer systems.

Hey folks,

Just a quick update on this; there are good ideas thrown so far, some stuff we like:

• Bringing back the cyno jammer, but make sure its use is very short by nature not to totally lockout the system - again this needs to be carefully designed

Thanks for your time and ideas people!

@Zarnak:

2. Would only make sense if rat destruction becomes a requirement. Since plex capture is time(r) based, it makes better sense to have each level of upgrade (5 at present I believe) add one minute to all timers for attackers and remove one minute for defenders.
- Attacking an upgraded system will take longer until upgrades are whittled down while defending said systems would be easier provided one starts doing so ASAP.
NB: Would need some sort of delay before 'fresh' LP are applied to upgrade status or a defender could keep system uncontested by spamming BCs in major (at medium speed (-5 minutes) and adding LP immediately.

This really jumps out at me as a great idea.

I'm just not sure why we would do this. The current lp/plex system seems to be working quite well. (Yes there are other issues in faction war that need work but this particular part seems to be great.)

The main reward for upgrading a system is your lp costs are cut in half or even in one quarter! That is a great benefit that is well worth fighting for. Therefore the fact that the other benefits are pretty "meh" is not really a problem.

The caldari and gallente front have about 20 systems vulnerable. It's hard to see this as anything other than large storm clouds which will eventually break to a huge storm of intense fighting spread out over 20 sytems.

Amarr can easilly make a comeback - assuming we stop fighting eachother. LOL.

I guess I don't see why people are continually making suggestions to change the part of this faction war system that actually seems to be working well.

Let's focus on getting ccp to fix the parts that are a known problems like unbalanced rats, bugs, plexing alts, and the issue of it being a pve activity in general. These are the major issues that need to be addressed lets keep ccp focused on those.

I suggest it because it's a way to add some ying into too much yang. Imagine if upgrading a system to +5 meant that the enemy militia had to spend an extra five minutes on a button as well as had to fight harder rats to clear that plex. Imagine that the defending miltia had to spend five minutes less on a plex to defend a system. Systems would be upgraded all the time, even at tier 1!

Now imagine that we had a new aspect to upgrades as well - the higher your warzone control tier, the more expensive it is to upgrade a system. Think of it as the LP store in reverse. Amarr, at tier one, would have to spend 37.5k LP to upgrade a system to 5 and get all the benefits above mentioned. Minmatar, which bounces between Tier 3-5, would have to spend 150k, 300k, or 600k to upgrade their systems.


If you eliminate running Caldari plexes for Minmatar LP, as well as missions in controlled systems - you have added a seesaw that will eventually lead to a back and forth fight. The winning side would have to defend more systems and compete for less LP that needs to do more. It would address steam rolling as well as week old farmers.

I'll start with my third paragraph. If I as an Amarrian militiaman plex Gallente plexes, then I should be rewarded with Caldari LP. Right now there are hordes of pilots running Caldari plexes in exchange for Minmatar LP. The system should be closed end in order to truly regulate. Otherwise it's kind of like having a counterfeit money machine in the basement. To answer your question, - in this regard the seesaw is broken.

The upgrades right now are ONLY there for the LP store. This thread is about how to make upgrades more appealing and worthwhile. ....

Let's say the Amarr have 10 systems. We are at Tier 1. We capture Oyonata. (yes, I know we own it right now.) We spend 37.5k LP to upgrade it to Tier 5. We spend another 37.5K to buffer it for a total of 75k LP spent. To the enemy it still takes 150k LP to get through the buffer and 150k LP to tear through the upgrades. This makes taking it for the Minmatar longer, harder, more difficult, ect. It makes defending it easier.

Now say the Minmatar take it back. They are at Tier 4. In order for them to 'harden' the system, it costs 300k for upgrades and 300k for a buffer. The Amarr only take 150k and 150k LP to burn through buffer and upgrades. On the other side of the world, both Caldari and Gallente can't get beyond Tier 1 or 2 due to the sheer number of plexers. Hardening some systems would allow at least a base to develop.

Any monetary reward given by the upgrades has to compete w/ the LP store. So if we gave an upgrade for better rats, for example, it would have to compete with a Tier 4/5 LP store. Upgrades right now are just a means to get that better store.

Rehashing this thread the most promising things seem to be: Reduced repair costs and a temporary cyno jammer. There's also a possiblity of better industrialist benefits. This is fine and good but it seems awful thin for a brain storming session.

When a system goes vulnerable, it should no longer spawn plexes for people to continue farming. There is a Gallente system that has been vulnerable for a week and WTs continue to farm it into perpetuity because of the spawns. No one cares to defensive plex it because it's a stationless system that leads into a nullsec entrance. Conversely, I can understand why the enemy doesn't want to capture it either. But if this is the case, then plexes shouldn't continue to spawn.

Neuts should not get any gain from Militia upgrades.

If anything - neutrals should pay a penalty to use the stations services. The penalty should be directly converted into LP and dumped into the iHub. This gives the system holder a form of payment for their work and stops the leeches gaining for no work.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.

I think having neutrals in low sec pay penalties for using any station in fw low sec is a pretty bad idea.

I think the best way to do this is limit the no docking rule to the actual militia stations. Allow only miliitia to dock there and give great benefits.

Neuts should not get any gain from Militia upgrades.

If anything - neutrals should pay a penalty to use the stations services. The penalty should be directly converted into LP and dumped into the iHub. This gives the system holder a form of payment for their work and stops the leeches gaining for no work.

The tier system is far too extreme on both ends of the scale. Tier 1 and 5 should simply be removed - leaving 3 workable tiers.

This is a discussion about system upgrades received when donating LP into the FW infrastructure hub, and how to make them more appealing after Inferno. Please refer to the FW blog for more details.


At the moment they are:

• Upgrade level 1 - 10,000 LPs required: +1 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 10% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 10% reduction in market / contract broker fees


• Upgrade level 2 - 25,000 LPs required: +2 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 20% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 20% reduction in market / contract broker fees


• Upgrade level 3 - 45,000 LPs required: +3 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 30% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 30% reduction in market / contract broker fees


• Upgrade level 4 - 70,000 LPs required: +4 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 40% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 40% reduction in market / contract broker fees


• Upgrade level 5 - 100,000 LPs required: +5 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 50% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 50% reduction in market / contract broker fees


• Buffer - 100,000+ to 150,000 LPs

* Slots are only given for stations that already have that given activity before upgrade. For instance: a station only having science slots will not receive extra manufacturing slots.

It's a start, but nothing fancy. We would like to iterate on that after Inferno, and we have already heard some good comments, but your input is welcome.


Some ideas, not necessarily in any order:

• Bring back the cyno jammer, if polished enough to be shot down by neutral third parties. Fanfest taught us it is a very tricky move, so we want to hear from all interested parties here
• Move station deny docking from being automatic when a system is captured to something that only happens when the enemy upgrade a system to level X
• Provide science, manufacturing time reduction bonuses to further encourage industry in low-security space

Speaking of which, how do you feel about neutrals having access to your precious upgrades? As explained in the blog, the original goal was to promote an industrial backbone in low-security space, but you may feel differently.



Thanks for your time!

How about having an upgrade benefit that would encourage neuts to enter low-sec, but also have part of the charges for the services paid back into the system sort of like a POCO.

Honestly, I would like to encourage more neuts (so it should be a bonus not a penalty), it just means there's more to shoot at and the low-sec markets will probably be a bit better stocked. A few things they could add, are bonuses to refining/reprocessing, research, manufacturing, invention, copying. Even a 1-5% bonus I think would be enticing enough.

This thread hasn't had any dev love in almost two and a half months. It either needs some feedback to redirect the conversation or it should be unstickied.

I think it should be unstickied. It should be clear that faction farming has more pressing problems than fine tuning the Ihub rewards.

And those pressing problems will be addressed as well. No one should assume that because these are the only two things that are stickied that they are all that's being worked on or that they are necessarily the utmost priority. But I know for a fact that CCP is still actively seeking player ideas not only for what they want to see as IHUB rewards but also what they want to see in a plex content revamp. As long as they're still gathering input, these should stay stickied.

The reason you haven't seen dev love in two and a half months is because they've been working on other release builds and on vacation. Everyone's returning to work on the Winter expansion now, I'm sure you'll hear more as time goes on, and these threads are still monitored as long as they're up and being contributed to.

I wrote a few (hundred (ok more than that)) words about my thoughts on FW here: http://themittani.com/features/dissection-game-system-faction-warfare

Discussion after the fact spawned what I think is a really great idea. Credit where credit's due: Weaselior (of Goonwaffe) came up with this idea, and its definitely a "more elegant" solution to the problem of "coordinated cashouts", among others.

Basically, do two things. First, make donating LP directly to infrastructure hubs not a thing. Remove the ability.

Second implement a system where hubs gain LP through player action. Attacking a hostile plex, or scoring PvP kills in a hostile system, would add LP equal to a percentage of the earned LP to the nearest friendly hub ("nearest" most likely by absolute astronomical distance or something). In friendly systems, LP generating kills contribute to the system's hub, and players could be rewarded with LP for defensively plexing - a smaller reward than offensive plexing, to be sure, but the contribution to the system's hub could receive a bonus as an extra incentive.

These bonus contributions to the hub could also come in the form of a tax, which may be preferable, as it still means players are losing LP to upgrade their systems - they're just doing it involuntarily. That'd be for CCP to decide. Likewise, the size of the contribution would have to be tweaked - too small and it remains too easy to offset with offensive plexing, and achieving and maintaining higher levels of warzone control is too hard, but too large, and its too easy.

The overall effect here would be that defending systems would be incentivized, as it would give your hubs a larger bonus, and it would force players to actually participate - the "coordinated cashouts" that are the norm now would be dead.

There is a reason why this thread is still a sticky and will stay as one.

Moar info soon. And it's soon, not soonGäó, so expect it soon, Mr. SpoonGäó.

- no LP payout for plexing in vulnerable systems (or equivalent mechanic which discourages farming)
- timer runs backwards if you leave the flag of a plex
- requirement to kill all NPCs in a plex
- no FW missions in friendly space

I see where you're going with this, you're certainly zeroing in one a very important problem, but I really believe the solution is much simpler. Fix the LP store prices at pre-inferno levels for all factions, and modulate the LP rewards for the various activities by a multiplier instead. This instantly eliminates the ability to "spike" the market, and it holds factions accountable for their current progress. Right now a faction can live at Tier 1 all week long, and cash out all their LP in an hour window on the weekend, and go right back to living at Tier 1 all the time. This is pretty broken, and it encourages everyone to chase the tier 5 spike (and discourages them from cashing out UNLESS they hit the tier 5 spike).

The problem people will point out right away with this change is the bleed-out - its way too easy to drain an IHUB quickly of its upgrades, which provides a disincentive to use them for anything other than spiking the market. This is easily fixed by tweaking the rate of the bleed-out. The other obvious problem is "snowballing" of the winning militia, meaning the more LP you earn the easier it is to maintain your upgrades. This is also easily fixable by scaling the amount of LP it takes to upgrade, based on your WZC control.

With a few mathematical adjustments to make it easier to maintain a given Tier level, scaling LP payouts instead of the store pricing will reward factions based on their current performance, and allow all players to cash out their LP freely at any time (helping them stay in the game and supplied with isk and ships) instead of the situation we have now where the losing faction just accumulates their LP, spending little and waiting for a savior to come in and help them achieve the magic system number needed to spike the market to the appropriate level. This change also heavily encourages those that are merely in FW to farm LP and isk (a valid reason to participate) to actually care about the state of the war on a day-to-day basis, which was the original design intent.

I see where you're going with this, you're certainly zeroing in one a very important problem, but I really believe the solution is much simpler. Fix the LP store prices at pre-inferno levels for all factions, and modulate the LP rewards for the various activities by a multiplier instead. This instantly eliminates the ability to "spike" the market, and it holds factions accountable for their current progress. Right now a faction can live at Tier 1 all week long, and cash out all their LP in an hour window on the weekend, and go right back to living at Tier 1 all the time. This is pretty broken, and it encourages everyone to chase the tier 5 spike (and discourages them from cashing out UNLESS they hit the tier 5 spike).

The problem people will point out right away with this change is the bleed-out - its way too easy to drain an IHUB quickly of its upgrades, which provides a disincentive to use them for anything other than spiking the market. This is easily fixed by tweaking the rate of the bleed-out. The other obvious problem is "snowballing" of the winning militia, meaning the more LP you earn the easier it is to maintain your upgrades. This is also easily fixable by scaling the amount of LP it takes to upgrade, based on your WZC control.

With a few mathematical adjustments to make it easier to maintain a given Tier level, scaling LP payouts instead of the store pricing will reward factions based on their current performance, and allow all players to cash out their LP freely at any time (helping them stay in the game and supplied with isk and ships) instead of the situation we have now where the losing faction just accumulates their LP, spending little and waiting for a savior to come in and help them achieve the magic system number needed to spike the market to the appropriate level. This change also heavily encourages those that are merely in FW to farm LP and isk (a valid reason to participate) to actually care about the state of the war on a day-to-day basis, which was the original design intent.

The incentive to play defense is holding on to the space and thereby retaining the ability to hit a higher tier. There is clearly an incentive to hold systems.

The above explanation of the problem also ignores the best way to hold your system. Fight off offensive attackers before they capture plexes! Failure to defend your system in pvp results in the sort of punishment that you must then defensive plex for no individual gain. This is actually the best part of inferno and not a problem.

Finally it should be difficult to hang on to your systems. No lp for defensive plexing is the true balance against having a dominant side always win. You are correct that there are too many items in the lp store for the market to be a balance. However no lp for defensive plexing means the losing side can always work its way back up.

The reason amarr are not plexing there way to victory is not because there are insufficient benefits or because there is anything wrong with the tier system. Its because its boring pve and we like to pvp. Make it a pvp system and it is fixed.

Those who want to get rid of coordinated cash outs should think twice before they keep on that tack. Coordinated cash outs are one of the only things that keeps the people who are actually interested in FW somewhat in control of the source of income. The fact that the bump only lasts a few hours at most means that those not in the loop can't come in and drive down the prices hurting our income.

The biggest priority needs to be killing the rewards for running from PVP.

It occurs to me - your explanation makes sense if you see the coordinated cashouts as a problem, but have no issue with one faction being entirely dominant. I don't suppose this is the case, is it? If so, how is that interesting?

The reason amarr are not plexing there way to victory is not because there are insufficient benefits

Its because its boring pve and we like to pvp. Make it a pvp system and it is fixed.

words

There is simply no debate that a system that rewards winners and punishes losers financially will encourage profit-seekers to enlist in whichever militia is winning at the time. This sounds in theory like it would lead to "snowballing" and an unbreakable power monopoly over time. But the numbers show something a little different. As CCP disclosed at the summit, and as publicly available data shows, the "army of plexing alts" that have joined Minmatar haven't really translated into a noticeable increase in plexing behavior. The Amarr have been able to put forth as much warzone activity in terms of kills and victory points, despite the on-paper size advantage that the Minmatar have.

I like this alot more then the current system. You addressed many of the issues others have brought up against the above proposal. The one thing I would have liked to hear that I didn't was the current spread on WZC tiers. At tier one Amarr would get 2500 LP per minor? 4375 per medium? 6250 per major? To put it in perspective - I've made 1.8 million Amarr LP since the T4 cashout. I would have an above average cashout should the system change. Then it would be painful and slowgoing to earn more LP. The people who currently complain would continue to do so.

There are also other issues. Level 4 missions give the best LP - and really the missions serve no purpose anymore. And you can get all the LP you want by plexing in Caldari systems even if you own all the Amarr systems. LP is not finite in that sense. You can always get more easily.

Those who want to get rid of coordinated cash outs should think twice before they keep on that tack. Coordinated cash outs are one of the only things that keeps the people who are actually interested in FW somewhat in control of the source of income. The fact that the bump only lasts a few hours at most means that those not in the loop can't come in and drive down the prices hurting our income.

The biggest priority needs to be killing the rewards for running from PVP. You should not be able to bore your enemy to death and make ludicrous amounts of isk.

ugh factionwarfare will never be what i want it to be. :P

I want it to be a system that requires ownership of all surrounded systems before it can be cliamed. I want combat to be focused into the border systems. That is where every factional warfare mission should spawn. Any system that is not conected to nothing but friendly owned systems should be considered a battleground. If a sysem is surrounded by all owned system then FW missions would not spawn there.

But CCP will never listen to this direction of focused pvp gameplay, designing FW to work more like a well design board game.

without some serious revamps (and honestly, probably even with them), people would still be able to make grotesque amounts of isk without risking very much to do it. Let's face it - chasing down frigate farmers that run at the first sign of trouble gets boring, even if the beacon is closer and the capture point resets if they leave and so on. It'd probably get old, farming would flourish. The way that you eliminate coordinated cashouts makes the farming even easier.

Note on the VP numbers - as the author there notes, VP are gained by capturing plexes. The fact that Minmatar WZC drops very rapidly proves that someone on the Amarrian side is plexing to some end. Maybe it's die hards who are trying to genuinely participate and win, but are doing **** all in the face of the farming engine. Maybe it's amarr alts of minmatar farmers flipping systems back over to amarrian control so they can farm them - defensive plexing offers no reward, after all. Regardless, it's plainly obvious from warzone control that it doesn't matter, and that Minmatar are the chosen to win. The equal VP is pretty meaningless.

Cearain: In a general sense I agree with you that PvP should be emphasized. Heck, I just spent entirely too much isk on a frigate specialist that I hope to get to PvP on in FW, so I'm definitely there with you. Your suggestion for an alert system is really good (of course a war installation would issue a distress call if attacked). I've also seen a suggestion to move the beacon that you orbit to capture closer to the warpin, and that capture progress on a beacon reset to the neutral state if you leave the complex - either you stand and fight when attacked, or you have to start over. Implement both of those and some other sweeping changes, and I think removing NPCs would be okay.

I take some issue with some of your other points though.


To the first point - there's incentive to hold systems so that you have things to upgrade for a coordinated cashout. There is zero incentive to actually maintain higher levels of WZC though..

To the second point - the system allows for defense of sorts by defensive plexing, which serves to deny attackers who may show up later use of the plex to attack the system. In other words, its proactive defense - attacking them while they're in the plex is reactive defense. Both should be viable, but the lack of reward, either to the player or in the form of bolstering the upgrade level of the hub, means no one bothers, which contributes to the near impossibility of maintaining high WZC...which in turn makes coordinated cashouts the only way to cash out..[/quote.

Ahhh great question. You're not misunderstanding anything necessarily, you correctly point out that this indeed removes one of the financial incentives for enlisting in the losing miltia. This would be a pretty critical flaw if financial incentives were the current primary motivation for enlistment, or if those that enlist in the winning militia for financial purposes played a major part in the success or failure of the militia militarily. This doesn't appear to be the case in practice, however.

Since Inferno, we've witnessed several large outside entities enlist in the Amarr militia, and enlist explicitly for the increased number of war targets for PvP purposes. These groups are joining for the fun of it, a target rich environment to feed their PvP appetites. ....

I understand your concern here, but I'd argue that the coordinated cash outs are actually causing dedicated Faction Warfare pilots to suffer the worst of the market crashes, but sending them all to the market at the same time to collect on their LP gains. There isn't much question that having hundreds of pilots try to sell their Fleet Stabbers in bulk during a 24 hour period isn't causing many to settle for lower buy order prices than they might otherwise face on a day-to-day basis if the sales were distributed much more evenly. Having all of us career FW pilots go to the market on the same day pits us directly against each other..

There is simply no debate that a system that rewards winners and punishes losers financially will encourage profit-seekers to enlist in whichever militia is winning at the time. This sounds in theory like it would lead to "snowballing" and an unbreakable power monopoly over time. But the numbers show something a little different. As CCP disclosed at the summit, and as publicly available data shows, the "army of plexing alts" that have joined Minmatar haven't really translated into a noticeable increase in plexing behavior. The Amarr have been able to put forth as much warzone activity in terms of kills and victory points, despite the on-paper size advantage that the Minmatar have.

Cearain: In a general sense I agree with you that PvP should be emphasized. Heck, I just spent entirely too much isk on a frigate specialist that I hope to get to PvP on in FW, so I'm definitely there with you. Your suggestion for an alert system is really good (of course a war installation would issue a distress call if attacked). I've also seen a suggestion to move the beacon that you orbit to capture closer to the warpin, and that capture progress on a beacon reset to the neutral state if you leave the complex - either you stand and fight when attacked, or you have to start over. Implement both of those and some other sweeping changes, and I think removing NPCs would be okay.

I take some issue with some of your other points though. ....

"Make it a pvp system" is an interesting line in the context because you're talking about Amarrian lack of progress. To progress they'd have to attack - are you saying that attacking systems should be based on PvP too? Because, that won't work - any method of capturing systems that is based on PvP can be defeated by simply not providing the PvP. For better or for worse it has to be a PvE solution - you press the button, and if the defenders avoid PvP, they lose the system..

Hans I can't believe you are just taking her conclusions wholesale. Do you ever read the comments to these blogs?

...Hans if you make it a pvp mechanic all the people who are cashing out will be dedicated faction war pilots for that campaing. There won't be any farmers screwing up the market. People who earn lp in plexes will all be pvpers who helped actually fight the war.

The only exception to this will be the mission runners. And I think level 4 missions could stand a bit of a nerf...

Yes, I do. I had read this already.

There is simply no debate that a system that rewards winners and punishes losers financially will encourage profit-seekers to enlist in whichever militia is winning at the time. This sounds in theory like it would lead to "snowballing" and an unbreakable power monopoly over time. But the numbers show something a little different. As CCP disclosed at the summit, and as publicly available data shows,. the "army of plexing alts" that have joined Minmatar haven't really translated into a noticeable increase in plexing behavior The Amarr have been able to put forth as much warzone activity in terms of kills and victory points, despite the on-paper size advantage that the Minmatar have.

I see where you're going with this, you're certainly zeroing in one a very important problem, but I really believe the solution is much simpler. Fix the LP store prices at pre-inferno levels for all factions, and modulate the LP rewards for the various activities by a multiplier instead. This instantly eliminates the ability to "spike" the market, and it holds factions accountable for their current progress. Right now a faction can live at Tier 1 all week long, and cash out all their LP in an hour window on the weekend, and go right back to living at Tier 1 all the time. This is pretty broken, and it encourages everyone to chase the tier 5 spike (and discourages them from cashing out UNLESS they hit the tier 5 spike).

The problem people will point out right away with this change is the bleed-out - its way too easy to drain an IHUB quickly of its upgrades, which provides a disincentive to use them for anything other than spiking the market. This is easily fixed by tweaking the rate of the bleed-out. The other obvious problem is "snowballing" of the winning militia, meaning the more LP you earn the easier it is to maintain your upgrades. This is also easily fixable by scaling the amount of LP it takes to upgrade, based on your WZC control.

With a few mathematical adjustments to make it easier to maintain a given Tier level, scaling LP payouts instead of the store pricing will reward factions based on their current performance, and allow all players to cash out their LP freely at any time (helping them stay in the game and supplied with isk and ships) instead of the situation we have now where the losing faction just accumulates their LP, spending little and waiting for a savior to come in and help them achieve the magic system number needed to spike the market to the appropriate level. This change also heavily encourages those that are merely in FW to farm LP and isk (a valid reason to participate) to actually care about the state of the war on a day-to-day basis, which was the original design intent.

I feel like we might be getting away from the original thread topic here, but I think it's at least tangentially related since I assume we want to change the way upgrades work so that people are actually invested in the system.

In any case, I never meant to imply that items will reach zero value. My issue is not the value per se, it's the fact that the people influencing the value of the items are many times those who don't really have any stake in FW outside of how much isk they can make. We got these kinds of rewards in FW because we needed a good stream of income to keep up with the ship burn rate. Will a horde of farming alts keep us from making isk? No, but we will make significantly less than we could have had the money only been going to people who actually participate in FW. That is my problem with this system and the lvl4 mission issue we had before inferno. The discounts are there for a specific reason: to encourage and finance FW pvp. Farmers aren't interested in FW pvp, and they make it harder for us to afford our ships by driving down the prices. It's the principle of the thing, they shouldn't be able to just come in with little to no risk or investment and be able to make a **** ton of money at our expense.

Coordinated cash outs actually work against these types of people. And while many people outside of the core FW guys may know about when upgrades take place, that is a consequence of human planning, rather than an inevitable outcome. I know in Gal mil we made the conscious choice to inform the general pbase because we wanted to try and spread the task of donating around as much as possible. On a side note, I think we will change our schedule and not inform the public in the near future, because it's always the people in the secure channels who are out donating their LP (with a few exceptions), while 200 people you've never seen in fleets or heard of sit in Villore waiting to be the first one to cash out.

To Hans point about competing with your own militiamen, that's only the case if you're a bad merchant. If you're stupid and try to dump all your stuff at once, sure it's going to hurt you. But again, this is a consequence of human action.

If we can create a system where people who are going out and plexing are actually participating by fitting pvp ships, fighting for plexes, and generally doing what most people in FW do, then I think going to a system other than coordinated cash outs would actually make sense. We wouldn't have this farming problem that we do now, so making it easier to get your stuff in FW would help out.

But until that problem is fixed, coordinated cash outs are one of the few things in the current system that actually work to the advantage of the people who are invested in the system.

... Some mumbo+jumbo about prices ...

You state that RF Firetails sell for 12M as if it is some kind of high price .. check the store with your FW alt .. 12M 'was' rock-bottom or "at cost" so to speak prior to the ridiculous x4 modifier was put in. Base is 10k LP and 2M ISK and the market is capable of moving insane volumes at 12M a pop, especially now that AFs have gone again after their boost, so it is a natural low.

As for Slicers, when we left militia service the price had been bottomed out for over a year (thank you mission whores!) and they were wholesaling for 12M .. if you want to know how/why they got to 35+M then look no further than the Shakorite bum-rush in the last weeks before patch and the logically following scarcity of product as Amarr militia members suddenly had to pay 40k LP due to the ridiculous x4 modifier if they wanted a Slicer.
"But that does not make sense because 35M is a ****-poor LP exchange rate if they are 40k LP!!!" I can hear you think .. well my dear, the system was so wonderfully thought out (*cough*cough*) that rock-bottom for Empire mission whores selling faction frigates is lower (30k LP+10M ISK vs. 40k LP+8M ISK) than the corresponding militia when they are steamrolled .. I can almost guarantee that the majority of those 35M Slicers came from Empire and not FW..

It would be nice if upgrades where alittle more pressistant. As it stands the whole system is a cycle. One side builds up the LP reserves then cashes in at an appointed time. A few days later all those upgrades are gone because doing plexs bring it down. Make them last, as an independant I didnt put my LP into the system because a day or so later that system I upgraded to tier 5 is now tier 1.

Am I alone in thinking that those upgrades are to fragile?

It would be nice if upgrades where alittle more pressistant. As it stands the whole system is a cycle. One side builds up the LP reserves then cashes in at an appointed time. A few days later all those upgrades are gone because doing plexs bring it down. Make them last, as an independant I didnt put my LP into the system because a day or so later that system I upgraded to tier 5 is now tier 1.

Am I alone in thinking that those upgrades are to fragile?

WINTER ITERATIONS
We would remove LP store price reduction in the new system, and only modify LP gained. As such, tier1 WZ would reduce all LP gains by 50%, tier2 would keep them on the same field as of now, tier3 would give a 100% LP gain bonus, tier4 150% and tier5 200% LP gain bonus. This would encourage factions to actually keep and maintain space to have the LP bonus rather than just push once in a while.
]

Imo this, combined with the increased cost for upgrading, will just make upgrading obsolete at all. In a balanced war, like the one between caldari and gallente, where systems flip every day or two, its not worth upgrading a system to gain some more LP.
Repair cost, tower fuel cost and market tax reduction are a complete nonfactor.
The industry bonuses are very nice obviously, but again, theres just no way someone would spend 300k lp for a system which gets flipped in 2 days anyway.

I have a suggestion:

Currently defensive plexing in FW, offers no rewards.

Here's an idea:

If the system is being contested, or not at maximum upgrade level, some opposing FW beacons show up.

Lets say that a system is secured and at level 5.

No enemy plexes can show up.

If at level 4, one enemy plex may be open at any one time, but never more than one. Recapturing it, or destroying it, works the same as simply recapturing a defensive plex, but offer standard rewards. Or lowered rewards.

Level 3, two plexes, level 2 three plexes, level 1 four plexes, contested, as many as possible of both types os plexes, and at opposing faction there's no friendly plexes other than those permitted by the above.

This would provide incentive for defending players aswell as look like military attempts at retaking or capturing the system.

* Defensive plexing gives LP: as title says, but with a twist. LP amount is based on contested system % to avoid farming. Thus, a system that is 50% contested would only give 50% of the total LP amount available. Maximum cap would be set to 75% to encourage players to still be in the offensive.

Please also do something against all that "AFK-Farming" where people just send an MWD-Frigate with capstable tank into a plex and collect LPs for just orbiting... and if another Player kills them they laugh and use the next Frigate because that costs virtually nothing and can be done with a some-day-old newbiechar.



Webber-Turrets, Sentries with Tracking that kills MWD-Ceptors at Range or just don't give LP if nothing is killed in the PLEX... earning money completely AFK is not what FW should be like and there are lots of easy solutions for the problem.