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Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:28:00 -
[1]
This proposal offers one approach to balancing the rewards of mission running in high security space versus ratting in lowsec and 0.0. CCP plans on revamping 0.0 later this year or next, and I thought it would be beneficial to offer them some ideas from the perspective of a long term resident of 0.0.
The problem:
According to my research, the isk/hour earned running level 4 highsec combat missions on a single account is roughly 20M/hour, and can be accomplished with a 3-4 month old character. The 20M figure may or may not include salvaging dense missions, and the isk generated from items obtainable from various corporate LP stores. There is nominally no risk associated with this activity, at least if you are a member of an npc corp, and no downtime. Some empire residents claim the actual figure can be much higher - 30M/hour.
Life in 0.0 is not insanely profitable in and of itself. During my three years in EVE, I made most of my isk through importation of T2 modules to 0.0 and small scale, select production (mostly rigs). I have earned a substantial amount of isk ratting, though, and am quite familiar with that activity. I haven't mined since GoonSwarm resided in Syndicate, and buy orders for Zydrine were 4800 isk.
The problem with 0.0 is most of the systems in it are "worthless". The gates and belts won't spawn rats with bounties above 950K (if that high), they won't get Officer spawns, and the asteroid belts won't produce the ABC ores. NPC 0.0 has missions available, but unless you are performing missions for a pirate faction, there are few good reasons to do level 4 missions. The "low security rating" differential payed in terms of mission rewards does not come close, in my opinion, to offset the risk, either in 0.0 or lowsec.
In short, if you were advising a player as to the most profitable career they could undertake in the short term, you'd suggest level 4 combat missions in highsec.
How we got here:
CCP made EVE a better game. They made warp to 0, and got rid of bookmark sets. They eliminated the T2 BPO lottery. They even eliminated the lottery of what rewards storyline missions offered, and made every mission you ran for npc corps count for something by creating the LP store. They added rigs to give players more means to fit ships. They added half a dozen new regions, the Drone regions. They eliminated the value of holding a handful of specific systems by largely eliminating static complexes (there are still a few left, believe it or not). They significantly improved POS warfare. For those who view it as a mind numbing slog today, we once had towers with 5 day stront timers that would instapop an interceptor at 350 km.
The net effects of all of these things, today, is highsec is a more profitable place to live than ever before. The drone regions and their resulting mineral yields crashed both high and mid end mineral prices. Eliminating npc shuttles, changing rat/mission loot yields, and expanding the size of T1 unnamed module drops from 5 m3 to as high as 50 m3 sent Tritanium prices through the roof. Mining veld in highsec in a hulk is reportedly worth 5-7M isk/hour and thats direct to cargo mining/docking not into a jetcan.
More relevant to this discussion, the value of time spent ratting and mining in 0.0 has sunk enormously since I began playing in 2006. Pirate faction module drops are now subject to price pressures from equivalent (often better) highsec navy faction LP rewards. The contract prices on a Shadow Serpentis Mag Field Stabilizer seem higher than those for one from the Gallente Navy LP store, but the module stats are identical. Only deadspace loot has retained its value.
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Grista
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:29:00 -
[2]
The last time I mined in EVE was in Syndicate. You could comfortably make about 20M / hour in an Osprey ninja mining crokite, assuming a hostile didn't come along and pop you or your jetcan. I payed for my first ratting battleship that way, running the Zydrine up the pipe to empire in a frigate and selling it to 4800 isk buy orders. Zydrine buy orders are now in the 1400-1500 range. Thanks CCP and drone regions. Megacyte has crashed too, but by my guess only about 50% compared to the 70% suffered by Zydrine.
I've never spent much time in lowsec, aside from transiting. I never understood the appeal of losing sec status in PvP when you could do the same in 0.0 without recourse. That said, my view of lowsec is that it's the worst of all worlds. Mid range ore mining crashed along with high ends. The only thing lowsec has that highsec doesn't are level 5 missions, and perhaps better access to wormholes. From what I know, level 5 missions aren't particular popular, but please weigh in if you have knowledge in that regard. CCP did improve lowsec with Apocrypha by adding some BS rats (you could get faction cruisers there even back in the day). I feel lowsec still has a long way to go to entice more than "pirates" and capital ship producers from setting up shop there.
Some words about exploration:
This has been a great boon to those who choose to invest the time, skillpoints, and effort. The days of fighting over static plexes are largely gone, even though Goons nominally live in Delve today partly because of a disagreement over one of the few existing static plexes.
That said, should a player have to run around different constellations scanning for various sites in order to make a good living in 0.0? Ratting has already been made more difficult by eliminating the ability to see npc's on the directional scanner. You can even argue that high belt count systems are much inferior to, say, 8 belt systems because you can't easily check the belts for faction or officer spawns as a result.
Exploration, while very profitable, is best exploited by those who can play for several hours without interruption, have taken the time to learn about how to do it efficiently, and ideally work with other players or have multiple accounts in order to tank the most difficult encounters. Although there are many stories about running escalations across several systems that yielded nothing in the end, I feel Exploration as a whole is a largely well balanced activity today. It's just not the preferred activity for all.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:30:00 -
[3]
Approaches to my solution:
I specifically want to avoid nerfing highsec activities. I don't have a personal issue with people who don't want to leave highsec. They obviously make up the majority of players in this game, and I don't believe it would be beneficial to the future of EVE to "force" them into lowsec or 0.0 to maintain the isk/hour they are accustomed to.
If you nerf mission running by, say, 50%, then someone's 6 month goal becomes a 1 year goal. That's a good way to get people to quit the game. While EVE certainly doesn't need 300K more accounts to continue to be viable, it won't do well with 50K less. Therefore, my approach is how to make time spent in lowsec and 0.0 PvE more valuable, rather than time spent in highsec PvE less valuable.
Feel free to rant about how EVE would be a much better game without all those empire pubbies. Suggest how there should be no highsec at all, and everything should be all lowsec/0.0 all the time, because EVE should be a hard core gamer's game and all that. I'll ignore you, since this view ignores reality. Most EVE players live in highsec and they like it that way.
Ratting:
Ratting as a means of income was made more difficult in late 2006 - early 2007 when off grid npc ships were removed from the directional scanner. Prior to then, you could enter a system and quickly check for officers, faction or hauler spawns, or even to just see the value of spawns currently up. I suppose CCP felt this was too easy, as I don't recall a specific reason for that change. I don't have a big problem things as they are, although it seems to me that around the same time or later the rate at which rats would warp to different belts seemed to increase. This makes locating valuable spawns more difficult in high (15+) belt count systems.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:31:00 -
[4]
The thing that makes most 0.0 worthless is its "truesec" rating. Outside of pirate sov npc space, truesec determines the maximum value of BS spawns, whether or not officers can spawn, and to my knowledge the frequency of faction spawns. Lower truesec is better. Change how truesec functions and you change the value of lowsec and 0.0 space when it comes to ratting. Here is my proposal for that change, breaking down the values into 5 categories:
1) Lowsec - increase max BS spawn to triple 1.1M bounties. Essentially make all of lowsec roughly equivalent to what you can get in an -0.4 system today, including any related increase in faction and hauler spawns.
2) All of 0.0 - eliminate all spawns that don't have a battleship. Pruning cruiser spawns out of even perfect truesec systems takes hours and it's completely ridiculous.
3) "poor" truesec 0.0 (roughly 0.0 to -0.3) - Increase max value BS spawn to triple 1.4M.
4) "fair" truesec 0.0 (roughly -0.4 to -0.6) - Increase max value BS spawn to triple 1.85. Permit officer spawns. Basically the same as existing "perfect" truesec. Decrease max respawn time of a cleared spawn to 20 minutes (I believe it is currently 30 min or higher).
5) "good" truesec 0.0 (roughly -0.7 to -1.0) - As above and eliminate spawns below 950K. Significantly increase (triple or quadruple) the rate of hauler and faction spawns. Decrease max respawn time from a cleared spawn to 15 minutes.
I suggest increasing the chance of Officer spawns, as well. Since I've seen exactly one Officer in the 3 years I've ratted, it's hard for me to say by how much. I would need information that isn't currently available, specifically how they currently spawn, whether or not it's true they are more common just after downtime (something which should be obviously be changed if accurate), how long they stay up, whether particular officers favor one region over another, what % that spawn are killed, etc.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:31:00 -
[5]
This is one part of the solution. Nominally, macro ratters aka ninja farmers would stand to benefit the most from these changes by themselves. Ideally, players should be able to improve the quality of space they hold. For that reason, I suggest the introduction of two new items:
1) Spacial Vortex Generator - A POS module, anchored at a control tower, that effectively improves the truesec of that system by -0.4 (basically, one level that I've described above). Requires Sov 2. Fitting requirements - 750K grid and 4000 cpu (same as a jump bridge module, requires a large control tower).
2) Spacial Vortex outpost upgrade - A permanent outpost upgrade that gives the system perfect truesec. Cost in NPC goods 2 to 5 billion isk.
In addition to the truesec changes, this would give incentive to hold and improve space. Suddenly, "worthless" regions like Fade might see a population increase.
What alliances stand to gain the most if these changes were made? Pretty much everyone except GoonSwarm. The reason is simple. Most of Delve is broken. You can get triple 1.85M spawns in systems that arenÆt supposed to generate them. You can get Officer spawns in virtually every system, regardless of published truesec. We knew this years before we finally conquered the region, and itÆs a big part of why we arenÆt currently seeking to conquer other space. ItÆs why an alliance of > 5000 that formerly occupied 5 regions, fits comfortably into two. ItÆs also why you donÆt often see Goon ratters in NPC Delve, despite itÆs perfect truesec (as all pirate NPC sov systems enjoy). If Delve were ôfixedö as a result of these changes, I would have no opposition to it.
In my view, all of 0.0 and lowsec needs a big boost to bring it in line with the most stable, lucrative PvE activity û high sec mission running. There are other, reasonable, ideas to fix what I see as a glaring discrepancy. Some suggest just increasing rat bounties. Others suggest they should drop tags which have to be sold at DED stations. I like this solution the best as it gives the most benefit to those that hold space and would seek to improve it.
I have other ideas in mind to ôfixö mining and 0.0/lowsec mission running, which I may or may not share in the coming week. Suffice it to say that 0.0 mining is much worse today than when I began EVE in 2006, as are 0.0 missions in general.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:32:00 -
[6]
Sorry for the alt in the middle.
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El Liptonez
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:31:00 -
[7]
Generally support that idea, although I think triple BS spawns in every belt will net you too much ISK, considering loot and salvage.
Pretty sure that this truesec rating needs to be looked at though. I noticed this since I live in Great Wildlands, and the ratting there is utter crap. I think there's only about 5 systems with a rating of -0.5 or better, like 10 that are better than -0.2 at all. Sorry, no. Not in a 0.0 region. It really feels like CCP forgot that GW is not an NPC region like Venal. Without chaining mining Veldspar in empire would get me more isk for sure.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 16:51:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: El Liptonez
Generally support that idea, although I think triple BS spawns in every belt will net you too much ISK, considering loot and salvage.
You'd have to chain a long while to achieve that. I don't suggest making every BS spawn a triple spawn, just eliminating cruiser spawns from 0.0, improving what the best spawns in systems will be, and eliminating lower value BS spawns from the best truesec systems.
For those who don't rat - BS spawns can be single (most people clear these), double, and triple.
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Whitmoore
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:05:00 -
[9]
I support it.
Atm, anything below 0.4 isnt of interest to most people. Not enough profit to risk your ship.
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Facial Wipe
Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:47:00 -
[10]
Oh good god supported over and over and over, couldn't agree more.
>.< I hate cruiser spawns 
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Galler FLAke
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:59:00 -
[11]
I support this. Even in delve with broken truesec it can take hours and hours of pruning garbage frig/cruiser spawns (with multiple accounts) to get enough battleships in system to compete with high sec mission running. (Then 15 minutes later some battlestars idiot comes through and breaks all your chains looking for faction spawns.) Any 0.0 region without broken truesec must be completely worthless.
I don't see why most of 0.0 should be less profitable for the average player than nearly risk free highsec space. I think these changes could go a long way to fixing that problem with a minimal amount of work from ccp.
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Phorashi
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 18:27:00 -
[12]
I'm gonna support this on the **** empire platform.
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Vorick
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 18:33:00 -
[13]
Supported. 0.0 (particularly poor truesec 0.0) really needs the buff.
In regards to a system full of chained triple BS spawns, remember that you can still only kill them so fast, and you're unlikely to be using a multi-billion isk tricked out DPS ship in 0.0 space. |
Fille Balle
Dissolution Of Eternity
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:18:00 -
[14]
A goon? With a good idea for balancing? Dang, I thought I just quit drinking. Ah well, have some support!
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Mr LaboratoryRat
Confederation of DuckTape Lovers
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Posted - 2009.08.03 20:17:00 -
[15]
How about a pos mod/station upgrade that can give the sythem more belts? Or just give all 0.0 sytems a minimum of 10 belts.
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Rotnac
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:49:00 -
[16]
This is an excellent idea. Its a very level-headed approach to acknowledge that many empire dwellers will never leave empire - just quit if pushed too hard.
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Red Raider
Airbourne Demons
DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2009.08.03 22:18:00 -
[17]
I like it a lot!
A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out. |
Slave 2739FKZ
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Posted - 2009.08.03 23:01:00 -
[18]
First of all props on a well cosntructed OP. Certainlly this seems to be THE major issue in game balance right now, and probably ahs been for a while.
But is a complex issue, and for real analysis we lack hard data, only tidbits have been released on economic reports and some posts by devs on the forum. For example how much weight have the drone regions in high end minerals wasn't well known until a 'recent' post in a MD thread.
There are a lot of factors on how much money you can make where, and how all that is balances (isk vs. loot etc.). But the basic premises of the thread are right, and things must be looked at, as it stands 0.0 can make you a lot of money but is not very casual friendlly and the average player can't comepte against lvl4 mission running, only the mroe hardcore players or those in advanced possitions (alliance leadership) or with nice regions (R64s) can have a very high income (and then a lot is used on expensive stuff like poses, capitals & crapp).
I don't support the details, as only CCP can know & balance it, for example, if you increase a lot the officer/deadspace spawns the items would decrease their value in the market.
But it's time for them to takle this issue at once, as is the most pressing one. hence I support the thread for bringing discussion with CCP. And I hope this is tied to the incoming SOV changes someway or an other.
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m3rb3aSt
Advanced Component Research Enterprise
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.04 00:03:00 -
[19]
i like the idea a lot!
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theZJ
Suicidal Trainingscamp
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Posted - 2009.08.04 01:58:00 -
[20]
Agreed.
Before Delve War III, I ratted many hours in Systems like GR-J8B, with Truesec just below 0.5 IIRc. The spawns were ... unsatisfying. You were PRETTY happy about 1.2 mil double battleship spawns, forget about triple 1.85 or faction-BS-spawns.
Supported... tho you are one of those who cast me out there 
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TR1 MASTER
aa mining missions and R n D
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Posted - 2009.08.04 02:23:00 -
[21]
this needs to be done, that or take off the timer on clone jumping so it easier to buy a new ship if your unlucky and fail than having to spend at least 1 day in highsec doing lvl 4s if you sec status allows it.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.04 06:08:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Gramtar
If you nerf mission running by, say, 50%, then someone's 6 month goal becomes a 1 year goal. That's a good way to get people to quit the game. While EVE certainly doesn't need 300K more accounts to continue to be viable, it won't do well with 50K less. Therefore, my approach is how to make time spent in lowsec and 0.0 PvE more valuable, rather than time spent in highsec PvE less valuable.
I think that nerfing mission payout will not even really work at nerfing mission payout  .
The number of mission runners would be reduced, LP value would climb, some of the loot/salvage would climb, so in the end probably the net change in reward would be small for those capable of running mission fast. Teh only people to suffer would be those new to level 4 missions.
Quote:
Ratting:
Ratting as a means of income was made more difficult in late 2006 - early 2007 when off grid npc ships were removed from the directional scanner. Prior to then, you could enter a system and quickly check for officers, faction or hauler spawns, or even to just see the value of spawns currently up. I suppose CCP felt this was too easy, as I don't recall a specific reason for that change. I don't have a big problem things as they are, although it seems to me that around the same time or later the rate at which rats would warp to different belts seemed to increase. This makes locating valuable spawns more difficult in high (15+) belt count systems.
While not absolutely positive I think it was changed because of complexes and missions.
It was too easy to scan a complex to see if the keyholder ship had spawned and too easy to scan a missioner to see what he was tanking.
Naturally now you scan the wrecks and again know what a missioner is tanking, so probably that was a secondary reason.
Can't recall any Dev comment about ratting and directional scanner while I vaguely recall some comment about the above mentioned two points and about lag using the scanner.
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159Pinky
Trans-Solar Works
Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2009.08.04 07:50:00 -
[23]
This is definatly an good ide to improve the isk/hr gain in low - null sec without destroying all high sec players' game
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Too Dangerous
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Posted - 2009.08.04 13:34:00 -
[24]
agree with this. very well though out.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.08.04 13:40:00 -
[25]
Despite the OP being a goon, I support this idea.
________________________________________________
For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!) |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:24:00 -
[26]
Reduce empire isk faucets and the problem sorta fixes itself. |
Venomire
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:26:00 -
[27]
I don't rat, but I wouldn't mind seeing 0.0 (and lowsec) profitability increase for everyone.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:26:00 -
[28]
Something really needs to be done about the imbalance Highsec Level 4 Missionrunning represents in contrast to other activities in EVE.
Most cogent well though out proposal I've heard.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep.
I am always here.
Watching.
Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
it does get progressively longer.
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Lucas Avidius
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.08.04 16:16:00 -
[29]
This is the most well-written, well thought-out post I've read in this forum or any other forum related to isk balance, and it takes into account a lot of the real world issues that people face competing with level 4 high sec missions
Very much supported. Low sec and low end null sec need a boost, rather than simply nerfing level 4's again.
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Vio Geraci
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.04 18:22:00 -
[30]
I expect CCP will make some fixes to 0.0 as part of this next expansion, but I am worried that they will move too slowly, and too incrementally. Some major shifts are warranted. I think Alchemy fixed this in part by making there be more potential personal moons that aren't filthy lucre enough to be alliance controlled but are still worth enough to pay for a subscription. But still, there needs to be a rethinking of reasons for people to be in the belts in 0.0.
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