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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 11 post(s)
Zyck Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:11:00 - [211] Just a thought, but if they make it so that non-alliance members don't receive the benefits of the upgraded systems, then alt-alliances may not be as appealing.

CCP Abathur	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:20:00 - [212] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Protecting the stuff that provides utility makes more sense than specialized structures with absolutely no other purpose. Agreed. Shooting things with no purpose = bad. If you're going to blow something up it should hold some value to your enemy. Dominion will have plenty of this. Quote: CCP is killing the current system because they are enticed by the prospect of designing something from scratch. Outwardly appearances are more interesting, and they don't have to bother understanding the current system. We believe our current understanding of the current system is just fine. In the interests of transparency, CCP Greyscale will be publishing a blog soon where we outline exactly how we came to many of our conclusions about the current system. If you wish to debate those points, I know he will be happy to oblige you. Originally by: DigitalCommunist In other words, they aren't experienced enough at playing their own game to adequately balance the stats which currently dominate sov warfare. Oddly enough, the current design team has a great deal of past experience in just the sort of warfare you describe. Additionally we spend a great deal of time reading various forums/websites that discuss EVE and listening to players at FanFest and other venues. The CSM has also helped in moving the 0.0 agenda forward. All things added together and it's safe to say we've prepared well for this expansion. Originally by: DigitalCommunist And the attacker gets.. what under the new system? At least in the current system I'm satisfied with destroying a billion isk or more in uninsured assets. If a billion ISK of damage in the current system satisfies you, Dominion should make you feel as if you've bathed in the blood of your enemy like never before. Originally by: ElvenLord ]How will you compensate for the wasted time, effort and resourses of players? Are you willing to pay at least part of the expanses that ppl lost there? Your previous efforts have not been wasted or else you wouldn't have space in the first place. There are no plans to 'reimburse' alliances in the manner you speak of. However, alliances that are currently holding space may have certain advantages factored into what Infrastructure they can initially utilize based on their current holdings and investments. Originally by: ElvenLord With removing of sov levels, how do you exactly plan on adjusting all other things tied to them? Do you plan on introducing upgrades to replace ALL of them? Yes, we have a plan. For now, we simply wanted to outline the broad strokes of where we are going. Originally by: ElvenLord More expanses, yeeeeeeey. You already made us (players in general) spend loads of time, money and effort into improving ourselves and our homes. Consider what you currently have as the foundation then. What is coming in Dominion will allow you to actually begin building a home.

Gekkoh Caldari Rule of Five The Junta	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:21:00 - [213] Originally by: Full Bowl Ha! Large alliance tears! control 1 system = 25mil per month/gate control 2 systems = 50mil per month/gate 3 = 100mil 4 = 150mil etc.etc.etc. better be using every system you have to make isk! How about: 1 system - 25M/month 2 systems - 50M/month 3 systems - 100M/month 4 systems - 200M/month 5 systems - 400M/month 6 systems - 800M/month 7 systems - 1.6B/month 8 systems - 3.2B/month ... We'd have lots of smaller organizations duking it out with their many neighbors. Blobs are less common, and fun fighting is more common.
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:23:00 - [214] Originally by: Dierdra Vaal * All that effort isnt really wasted though. All that effort got you (Morsus Mihi) where it is today. Without it, you'd be sitting in empire. So ya, the effort wont help you directly after the patch, but it helps you now. Well, do your math again, cause it is in most part wasted, and I'm not thinking of RAWR (we just might even have an upper hand in this), but corporation and alliances in general. When you start calculating how much ISK has any sov holding alliance put into their space and other assets, and how much they might have gained and the risks it took it is a waste. For example if a small alliance (I know more then few that grabbed some space after the northern war last year) decided to, in absence of high-end moons, invest in titan production (the only profitable thing past almost a year)they needed to, in order to partially secure the investment, build a sov4 constellation. For making a sov4 constellation you needed 3 outposts, at least 50% of moons in all station systems covered + few towers in rest of constellation to hold it. 3 station cost 75bil (with no upgrade) 1 POS costs 1 bil (just basic POS), and if we take average of 35 moons per system, 50% coverage comes to 18bil per system. Average constellation has 6 systems so 75 + 3x18 + 3x2 = 131 billion. To get that outpost to have at least some bonuses you needed to invest in station upgrades. ThatÆs for 1 upgrade per station additional 5bil per upgrade + time and effort. To get outpost to a station level you need a total of 67 bil per outpost. If we add that to initial sum we come to a figure of 332 bil without upkeep price. Titan BPO + components BPO are approximately 100bil + few more bil for CSAA and CSMA. So the sum comes to 450bil without upkeeping. And we are not even getting into possibility of corp/alliance, on top of regular upkeeping, having reimbursement programs, office bills, alliance bill etc. . Lets say Titan production price is 50bil in minerals not counting any other cost or the fact it can be mined (cause you can sell those minerals, and mining those amounts of minerals take ages). Per year you can only make 8 titans, so if you sell them all for profit until few days ago (CCP screw up) you could have made about 270bil profit, and that without counting manpower, time and effort put into it, not to mention risk. 280 is not the same as 450, so unless you get some extra income resources you did not manage to get your investment back. So here you have an example for alliances losing huge amounts of ISK, that is not that big of a problem for large moon holding alliances but for small alliance it is a huge problem, cause even with tax of 100% that kinda of ISK is hard for a corporation to make (unless maybe for macro farmer corporation that collects even all loot, but thats maybe). So time effort and money IS wasted, thank you very much. Originally by: Dierdra Vaal * Is it so hard to think everything cant be infrastructure? There could be upgrades, prerequisites, etc. So you wouldnt be able to just plunk down some jammers right away, without first setting up base infrastructure. Again, I am partially familiar with this new sov mechanics, and upgrades do require some sort of perquisites in infrastructure, time, effort and ISK. Game play surrounding new sov will, I hope, be much more interesting. But the question of past things and their usefulness still stands. Will it all be a waste of time, effort and money? rest to follow
riverini	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:26:00 - [215] Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 In before all the conspiracy theorists claiming that CCP hates Goons and other Big Alliances that are not Band of Brothers/Kenzoku, that this Sov change is going to unfairly affect them, and that if BoB was still in power this sov change would never have happened or something. /Tinfoil Hat THIS!!!! The first thought that came to my mind after reading this was: WHAT A BUNCH OF ALBINO FAT ASS LOSERS!!!! You are totally spot on, now that the war is won, they want to change the rules of the game... PRETTY LAME ... BTW, where is INCARNA??>>
ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:26:00 - [216] Originally by: ElvenLord You know, in life one that makes a mistake is the one paying for them. And in this case we are talking of trillions of wasted ISK. sure, are your alliance willing to pay back all the isk you have gained from moons as well at the same time?
Dionisius Gallente Saiyans United death from above..	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:27:00 - [217] Originally by: CCP Abathur Originally by: DigitalCommunist And the attacker gets.. what under the new system? At least in the current system I'm satisfied with destroying a billion isk or more in uninsured assets. If a billion ISK of damage in the current system satisfies you, Dominion should make you feel as if you've bathed in the blood of your enemy like never before. Abathur how does the Dev team propose that? I would like to know how the new system is going to affect fleet warfare ( blob and lag ) that we see today. Originally by: CCP Abathur Originally by: ElvenLord More expanses, yeeeeeeey. You already made us (players in general) spend loads of time, money and effort into improving ourselves and our homes. Consider what you currently have as the foundation then. What is coming in Dominion will allow you to actually begin building a home. Is that somewere along the lines of Master of Orion for example? _____________________________________ Retribution and Death!
Haseo Arashi	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:28:00 - [218] Dreads still shoot things right? Their main purpose up until now was sitting at a pos shooing at it. Now it will be sitting somewhere else shooting at something different to archive the same goal. Maybe small gangs and "annoy" sov holders, but I doubt anything short of a dread fleet will be able to take sov away from anyone. mostly because if anything short of that is able to happen people will complain its "too easy". but if it stays the same its "too monotonous". so they're just gonna throw a few new toys in, rename the dreads targets and call it an improvement.
Dierdra Vaal	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:28:00 - [219] Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 09/09/2009 20:29:30 I guess you're right ElvenLord, it is all a waste of money. I suggest you start unanchoring your POS's and POS modules en masse to sell them while they have still value Director of Education :: EVE University Chairman of the CSM
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:29:00 - [220] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 09/09/2009 20:29:18 Originally by: ElvenLord Oh god. Do you think you could be a bit more familiar with the "Enter" key? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Zastrow J	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:36:00 - [221] So many threads to keep up with today aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaa So I have a lot of confidence in the developers working on this expansion. I know there's a lot of cynicism floating around about CCP's track record with regards to sovereignty, but many of the people working on Dominion are not the ones who introduced the broken systems we have now. (They even have 0.0 alliance experience under current mechanics!) I remain optimistic, and I wouldn't feel bad if I never had to anchor another pos mod ever again.
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:37:00 - [222] Originally by: Dierdra Vaal * You get space in return for the gate upkeep. Isnt that enough? Think of all the costs in fuel and man hours you'll save now that you wont need huge POS spam! All that tedious logistics is replaced with an easy-to-pay bill! Well you dont get space if you pay gate upkeep, that is the point. You get opportunity to get it. So you pay gates as a direct bill and pay space as a indirect bill trough other means. POS bill will still be there just significantly lowered as you still need them for industry for example, and afaik what you call tedious logistics will still be there. You have a lot to learn about expanses and life in 0.0 in general, its not all that glamorous. Originally by: Dierdra Vaal * tbh I cant think of answers to the rest of your question, but I do know the devs have thought/are thinking of all these things! Thats what scares me the most, their thinking part. Originally by: Dierdra Vaal (Note: this is my opinion/speculation, not insider info) Well its quite easy to get those insider info, they cant keep a secret if they wanted anyways (/me points to a certain interview that collapsed markets and made ppl run for their lifes from few days ago)
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:38:00 - [223] Originally by: ElvenLord Well you dont get space if you pay gate upkeep, that is the point. You get opportunity to get it. So you pay gates as a direct bill and pay space as a indirect bill trough other means. POS bill will still be there just significantly lowered as you still need them for industry for example, and afaik what you call tedious logistics will still be there. You have a lot to learn about expanses and life in 0.0 in general, its not all that glamorous. So in other words, it's exactly like the post fuel expense. Because I don't know if you understand this, but just putting a pos down right now does not gauruntee sov foverever. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:42:00 - [224] Originally by: CCP Abathur Consider what you currently have as the foundation then. What is coming in Dominion will allow you to actually begin building a home. Well Mark, check your server logs and you will see we, in particular are doing it for a loooooong time. But for Domination, lets say, it will have to go a looooong way to prove that risk is worth the reward for those kind of things.
Soi Mala	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:44:00 - [225] Originally by: Gekkoh How about: 1 system - 25M/month 2 systems - 50M/month 3 systems - 100M/month 4 systems - 200M/month 5 systems - 400M/month 6 systems - 800M/month 7 systems - 1.6B/month 8 systems - 3.2B/month ... We'd have lots of smaller organizations duking it out with their many neighbors. Blobs are less common, and fun fighting is more common. Soooooo... who's thinking goonswarm, goonswarm1, goonswarm2, goonswarm3....
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:46:00 - [226] Because god knows we don't spend anything now. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Alun Hughes United Amarr Templar Legion Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:47:00 - [227] Originally by: DETURK When Dominion is released, the answer is simple - if you want to control the space accessed by these stargates, you will be responsible for their monthly maintenance and upkeep. So if we pay for the Stargate we should be able to decide who can use our Stargate. Morsus Mihi Denies you access to this stargate Oh well guys lets just go to AAA space for a roam AAA Denies you access to this stargate For **** sakes!!
Mynas Atoch UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:47:00 - [228] In this thread - former eve players *****ing about the loss of investment in POS from the changes Please, CCP .. take my sov POS .. send wormhole aliens to disintegrate them now and forever. I'm looking at my alliance POS management tool and the 860 POS on it and working out how many can die without affecting us in the SLIGHTEST. Do I want them reimbursed? Not as much as I want to see them gone! Myn
Darknees	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:50:00 - [229] what about npc space?
ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:53:00 - [230] Originally by: Mynas Atoch I'm looking at my alliance POS management tool and the 860 POS on it and working out how many can die without affecting us in the SLIGHTEST. Do I want them reimbursed? Not as much as I want to see them gone! Myn
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:53:00 - [231] Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 09/09/2009 20:29:30 I guess you're right ElvenLord, it is all a waste of money. I suggest you start unanchoring your POS's and POS modules en masse to sell them while they have still value I have a better idea, let me give it to you and you try to sell them. Think of it as a donation.
ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:58:00 - [232] Originally by: ElvenLord Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 09/09/2009 20:29:30 I guess you're right ElvenLord, it is all a waste of money. I suggest you start unanchoring your POS's and POS modules en masse to sell them while they have still value I have a better idea, let me give it to you and you try to sell them. Think of it as a donation. im sure the moon income has payed for them many times over already
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:58:00 - [233] Originally by: CCP Abathur Originally by: DigitalCommunist Protecting the stuff that provides utility makes more sense than specialized structures with absolutely no other purpose. Agreed. Shooting things with no purpose = bad. If you're going to blow something up it should hold some value to your enemy. Dominion will have plenty of this. I smell the development of planets and the ability to rain hellfire on planets with dread fleets. Makes sense. It is more logical than the concept up putting up towers on useless moons and/or shooting towers on useless moons. Originally by: CCP Abathur Quote: CCP is killing the current system because they are enticed by the prospect of designing something from scratch. Outwardly appearances are more interesting, and they don't have to bother understanding the current system. We believe our current understanding of the current system is just fine. In the interests of transparency, CCP Greyscale will be publishing a blog soon where we outline exactly how we came to many of our conclusions about the current system. If you wish to debate those points, I know he will be happy to oblige you. Sounds like the devs, who play the game, have been stuck in POS bashes and are just as tired of it as everyone else. So, it should come as no surprise that they are coming out with a more interesting way of taking/holding sov. Originally by: CCP Abathur Originally by: DigitalCommunist In other words, they aren't experienced enough at playing their own game to adequately balance the stats which currently dominate sov warfare. Oddly enough, the current design team has a great deal of past experience in just the sort of warfare you describe. Additionally we spend a great deal of time reading various forums/websites that discuss EVE and listening to players at FanFest and other venues. The CSM has also helped in moving the 0.0 agenda forward. All things added together and it's safe to say we've prepared well for this expansion. Read: CSM has asked for this every time they talk to CCP and the devs have been saying "Soon" up until now. Originally by: CCP Abathur Originally by: DigitalCommunist And the attacker gets.. what under the new system? At least in the current system I'm satisfied with destroying a billion isk or more in uninsured assets. If a billion ISK of damage in the current system satisfies you, Dominion should make you feel as if you've bathed in the blood of your enemy like never before. Kill billions on planets along with the cities and "infrastructure" that had billions of isk sunk into it via raining hellfire from space? Atmospheric flight was another thing promised that could come (please?) with Dominion. Originally by: CCP Abathur Originally by: ElvenLord ]How will you compensate for the wasted time, effort and resourses of players? Are you willing to pay at least part of the expanses that ppl lost there? Your previous efforts have not been wasted or else you wouldn't have space in the first place. There are no plans to 'reimburse' alliances in the manner you speak of. However, alliances that are currently holding space may have certain advantages factored into what Infrastructure they can initially utilize based on their current holdings and investments. Based on the CSM getting canned for "buying" something instead of "selling" (POSs)... I would imagine POSs aren't going out of style entirely. What was being bought? I can only hope it is those marines that are rotting away in my hangars. Originally by: CCP Abathur Originally by: ElvenLord With removing of sov levels, how do you exactly plan on adjusting all other things tied to them? Do you plan on introducing upgrades to replace ALL of them? Yes, we have a plan. For now, we simply wanted to outline the broad strokes of where we are going. Between Dust and Dominion, I would assume planets are actually going to be the key more than moons (it would makes sense).
ElvenLord 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.09 21:00:00 - [234] Edited by: ElvenLord on 09/09/2009 21:00:23
Mynas Atoch UK Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.09 21:02:00 - [235] Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 09/09/2009 21:04:30 Originally by: Bagehi I would assume planets are actually going to be the key more than moons (it would makes sense). It wouldn't. I'd expect to see more habitable and exploitable planets orbiting gas giants than orbiting suns, so I suppose it depends on your perspective. In real life, those of a scale with Venus, Earth, Io, Callisto, Europe, Ganymede and Titan.
DeputyFruitfly	Posted - 2009.09.09 21:03:00 - [236] How will the transition to the new sov system take place? Everybody loses all sov and it's a FFA for everyone to get it? Something else?
Thresh Avery Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.09.09 21:06:00 - [237] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 09/09/2009 16:06:50 Quote: Increasing gate upkeep fees based on empire size? This will further discourage huge empires and holding space you dont really need. Unless it's done cleverly, you'll just see GoonSwarm, GoonMob, GoonGang, GoonPile, GoonRiot, GoonGoon and GoonNoog alliances holding adjacent space in the massive space continent all will come to know as GoonTopia. Never forget that the real endgame in EVE is twisting game mechanics to induce alcoholism in the dev staff, and drinking bitter, bitter dev tears. Putting in my application for GoonMob now - the greatest alliance in all of GoonTopia! You're right though, no matter what CCP change or create, the mechanics will always be used in a specific way to manipulate the game. Let's hope it's not going to be something lame though, like jumping gates back and forth or whatever.
Gekkoh Caldari Rule of Five The Junta	Posted - 2009.09.09 21:07:00 - [238] Originally by: Soi Mala Originally by: Gekkoh How about: 1 system - 25M/month 2 systems - 50M/month 3 systems - 100M/month 4 systems - 200M/month 5 systems - 400M/month 6 systems - 800M/month 7 systems - 1.6B/month 8 systems - 3.2B/month ... We'd have lots of smaller organizations duking it out with their many neighbors. Blobs are less common, and fun fighting is more common. Soooooo... who's thinking goonswarm, goonswarm1, goonswarm2, goonswarm3.... Ah, meta-gaming. How bittersweet it is. However, with all of those being a self-contained unit of space, wouldn't it be more likely for in-fighting to break out and split the meta-alliance into smaller pieces? Don't underestimate the psychological factor of group dynamics and the role symbols play in them. Take a large team under one flag, one name, and break it up into smaller teams, with different flags and names, and now it's far easier to blame the "others" for things. That's just human nature. Smart game design can leverage that to increase the number of "teams" and thus the amount of potential conflict. Do I have a clean answer for this? No, but that doesn't mean there isn't one to be found.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.09.09 21:09:00 - [239] Originally by: Viper **zIe Originally by: Teck7 Edited by: Teck7 on 09/09/2009 12:16:55 So does this mean sov4, sov3, jammers and jump bridges are gone? further, this sounds like a micromanagement nightmare for small and large alliances alike if every single random roaming gang has the capability of easily contesting sov let alone doing so in dozens of systems with relative ease. some tangible details would be nice. The 0.0 metagame just became 0sp alts running through other alliance's space to disrupt sov. I guess it's better than shooting POS at least Sounds a lot like fw... thank god sov doesn't mean anything :)
Itzena Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.09 21:14:00 - [240] Originally by: Soi Mala Originally by: Gekkoh How about: 1 system - 25M/month 2 systems - 50M/month 3 systems - 100M/month 4 systems - 200M/month 5 systems - 400M/month 6 systems - 800M/month 7 systems - 1.6B/month 8 systems - 3.2B/month ... We'd have lots of smaller organizations duking it out with their many neighbors. Blobs are less common, and fun fighting is more common. Soooooo... who's thinking goonswarm, goonswarm1, goonswarm2, goonswarm3.... More like Goonswarm, Goonfleet, Goonwaffe, Goonplatoon, WANG, etc etc....

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