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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:21:00 -
[1]
With the latest devblog, it's stated that moros is losing it's drone bonus when not in siege. Might not seem like a huge change, but... it really is, and here's why.
If you go over every single dreadthread back throughout history the consensus will be that the dreads are pretty much equal(Well, prior to the naglfar boost, the naglfar was worse, the rest on par. Since then both the phoenix and naglfar have recieved boosts), yet different. The Naglfar gets best damage, however thanks to suffering from ammoconsumtion and reloads, the revelation will still land on better damage in total. The phoenix will be on about par with the Moros for damage, however with no issues fitting weapon upgrades, an extreme range and most importantly being able to pick their damagetype, they're quickly back up there.
However... while the Moros was the obviously worst for pos-sieges and arguably worst for capital-fireworks it had one HUGE bonus. When it wasn't in siege, it could remove subcaps like no other. It was the hotdroppers wet dream, it was the end all of station games. And I can not but agree to it being to strong in this role. However, now that the out of siege role is gone, it can nothing but be compared on the equal grounds of siege, where it quite frankly comes short. Yes, the bonus is the same, but it must be used in an entirely different way. The advantage of removing tackle while tackling yourself is pretty moot.
So what I'm after with this thread is really two things. What do you think about the change as such? And maybe more importantly, if my thoughts are right in that the moros comes short in actual siege(even without really mentioning the destructable sentries) what would be the best way of compensating for this loss? Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 662161
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:45:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Davinel Lulinvega on 15/09/2009 23:46:28 I don't own a moros but this is pretty lame. Also, even if they double titan hp the new doomsday is going to be essentially useless.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:49:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 15/09/2009 23:49:49 Well, the station hugging moros was surely one of the lamest things in game, I'll not shed a single tear here.
About its primary strength as a sub-cap killer, that can be a valuable thing in small capital fleets, its not like providing a screen against BS fleets is worthless if you are short on numbers in a POS assault.
Gonna see how it plays out I guess.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:49:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/09/2009 23:49:44 The bonus outside siege mode was an aberration. It was nice while it lasted but it needed to go.
The Moros is still better than the Phoenix and the Naglfar in most tasks. Only the Revelation is better and that is mostly because of the Laser overall imbalance, not because of the ship itself. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
NoNah
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:52:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
The Moros is still better than the Phoenix and the Naglfar in most tasks. Only the Revelation is better and that is mostly because of the Laser overall imbalance, not because of the ship itself.
Foudn this bit particularily interesting. Would you mind expanding a bit on this? I would have agreed back before the boosts, but now I just don't see it. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 555752
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:53:00 -
[6]
I know a few people who will be very upset, but it was a long time coming.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:54:00 -
[7]
My cap alt flies a Moros. It's not the job of dreadnoughts to go about splatting subcapitals.
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LiMu Bai
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:58:00 -
[8]
Moros had one strenght, one role. It was able to fight small support ships like Hacs, dics etc. This role is gone...it was not that devastating anyways but it was an nice option.
All whats left now is a dread with inferior tank and dps (even with drones and guns dps is lower than Rev/Nag/phoe). Well, in theory you can use your drones also for sieges, but practically its not really possible. Posgunners will pop your sentries (they often aim for t2 sentries). You always get bumped away from your drones, which means youll loose them. Theres also a drone control range of 60km.... There really no reason to use Moros over Rev or Nag. They do alot of solid Gundmg, without relying @ uber^-drones^^
@ station camping: Carriers are even better in this, will they also be nerfed?
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MukkBarovian
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:30:00 -
[9]
Its a big nerf to station humping. Its a big nerf if you want dreads on the field but you want to wait to commit to going siege green.
The unnerfed moros can do really bad things to ships of all sizes with its drones. It terrorizes small gourps unable to deal with dreadnoughts. Warrior IIs are sent out to eat frigates. Ogres tear through BS. Near targets are nueted. Far targets can be sniped with sentries.
No other dread can do this. Its almost impossible to hit subcaps with capitol weapons as long as the targets have some velocity. There is a degree of fairness in saying that if it wants to do bad things to people it needs to be sieged and committed to the battle.
There is still a role in smaller cap fleets for dreads that can reach out and touch smaller fleets. There is not much of a role for a sieged station humping dreadnought.
I am happy. People who want to fight have to commit a little bit to the fight. Aggression timers being the main mode of enforcement. Obviously aggression timers are a little bit lacking on something with the moros' HP. This remedies the situation.
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xxxak
Caldari No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:42:00 -
[10]
cry cry cry, cry cry cry.
Ships get nerfed all the time. EVE is about risk. If you are unhappy with a sieged dread that tanks 10000 dps and deals 1000 dps to sub caps for low sec station games... welll.. too freaking bad.
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Vyktor Abyss
Gallente The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:54:00 -
[11]
I've been on the recieving end of station hugging Moros, and its very annoying, but thats more due to docking/undocking/agression mechanics than the fault of the ship.
I find it a pity that its not even been complained about or obviously imbalanced since I've also had station hugging Nagalfars try the same trick. Its just seemingly a whim of some Devs crusade to accross the board "put Gallente DPS back into line" (and by that they mean below the line in reality).
I'm a sad panda tonight.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: xxxak cry cry cry, cry cry cry.
Ships get nerfed all the time. EVE is about risk. If you are unhappy with a sieged dread that tanks 10000 dps and deals 1000 dps to sub caps for low sec station games... welll.. too freaking bad.
You didn't read the post, did you? Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 463068
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:07:00 -
[13]
Originally by: xxxak cry cry cry, cry cry cry.
Ships get nerfed all the time. EVE is about risk. If you are unhappy with a UNsieged dread that tanks 10000 dps and deals 1000 dps to sub caps for low sec station games... welll.. too freaking bad.
fyp
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:11:00 -
[14]
You won't be seeing any more station hugging Moroses because everyone interested in POS fights and cap bashing will be crosstraining the better-in-every-way Revelation ;) ----
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:29:00 -
[15]
I'd say given it a bit of a balance, as its looking to be absolutely no reason to train Gallente caps.
Have a much smaller bonus for the Dread out of siege (even just 10% per level like all other subcapitals) and increase the damage/effectiveness of hybrid turrets to make a more competitive dread in siege. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:40:00 -
[16]
imho the ranking has changed to: 1) rev, 2) nag, 3) moros, 4) phoenix
The nag is a nice dread. The major downsides is the requirement for minm bs 5, split weapons systems, ammo usage.
Station games weren't that common or that bad. What the change has done is drop the moros so its less desirable than a rev or a nag.
With the drone bonus nerfed the moros needs a rof, range, or rep bonus. It seriously needs to be boosted to meet the nag tank/dps.
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Eagle Tarquinas
Gallente Epiphyte Mining and Exploration
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Posted - 2009.09.16 02:26:00 -
[17]
I believe a fair compromise would be, instead of there being no bonus outside siege, their should be a 10% bonus to drone hitpoint, damage and add to the moros a role bonus: 5x drone damage in siege mode.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Eagle Tarquinas I believe a fair compromise would be,
then bring a domi. Any nerf to the moros means that the rev is the correct dread, nag is nice, but no real point to the moros.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
The Moros is still better than the Phoenix and the Naglfar in most tasks. Only the Revelation is better and that is mostly because of the Laser overall imbalance, not because of the ship itself.
Foudn this bit particularily interesting. Would you mind expanding a bit on this? I would have agreed back before the boosts, but now I just don't see it.
OK, fair enough.
The Phoenix weapon system can be speed tanked by capitals, especially in siege mode.
Additionally, although the problem has been somewhat mitigated by the recent changes to citadels HP and speed, those missiles can still be blown by smartbombs, especially by faction and officer ones, common in supercapitals. That can be easily seen when you look in any Titan killmail and see all phonixes in last place damagewise, some not even scoring a single hit.
The reasons above make it into a pos take down tool only. A good one, given, but not even the best as it is second to the Revelation in this task. For actual combat it is the worse dread by a fair margin.
The Nagilfar still have the worse tank of all 4 dreads, and the part of its damage coming from citadels suffer the same problems described above. Given that it is much better now than it was before as this amount to a much lower part of its damage, but it still makes its damage nothing spectacular, especially when you factor reload times (artillery clip size is horrible).
The Moros at least has a good tank and good reliable damage, in addition to having a good part of its damage with low sig resolution and thus able to destroy smaller targets, even if only in siege mode now. That can't save you now, but may be able to save a supercapital you are protecting, for example.
One thing that I think it should gain as compensation for this nerf is a much bigger drone bay, though, that would give it some extra flexibility. =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 04:46:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel The Phoenix weapon system can be speed tanked by capitals, especially in siege mode. ... those missiles can still be blown by smartbombs, especially by faction and officer ones, common in supercapitals. That can be easily seen when you look in any Titan killmail and see all phonixes in last place damagewise, some not even scoring a single hit.
I'll agree that the phoenix is subpar. If something is speed tanking missiles then turret tracking is likely an issue. Unless you want to use the "sniper dread" fleet.
those missiles aren't that likely to be blown up. the real issue with titan/mothership kills is the speed in which titans pop. Put 50-60 dreads on a titan and top damage is partly whoever locks first and fires first. The flight time of missiles is the issue.
A shield tanked nag has a fairly decent tank. Nag certainly isn't the worst dread.
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Geminimixer
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Posted - 2009.09.16 05:24:00 -
[21]
Am training for Gallente capitals. Not happy with Moros change. Nerfs are really ruining this game. Why do all ships have to be the same. The Moros was cool because it had the ability to pressure smaller ships. Now it will be just the same as all the dreads.
Only good gallente ships are ranis for solo and the dominix. Arazu and ishtar are also nice.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.09.16 05:41:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/09/2009 05:46:15
Originally by: Geminimixer The Moros was cool because it had the ability to pressure smaller ships. Now it will be just the same as all the dreads.
It still has that ability, the only change is it now has to commit to these sort of "fights".
I cant really see the nerf here, apart from stupid capital docking games. If you trained for / bought a dread for that purpose, well you had it coming.
Its combat performance wont change a bit, how people all of a sudden think its the worst dread, worthless etc is beyond me.
Edit: as for citadel torpedos, if you look at pure "gank" capital kills with 20 dreads dropped on a carrier, you will most likely see the phoenixes on top of the mail.
Without having done a proper analysis, the reason for them to do bad damage against titans and motherships is the rather fast movement of these targets I guess, not smartbombs.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:04:00 -
[23]
Seriously?!
:(
When is it going to be "Boost Gallente?"
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:55:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Without having done a proper analysis, the reason for them to do bad damage against titans and motherships is the rather fast movement of these targets I guess
Trige isn't used *that* often. A carrier is going to be kept moving just as titans and motherships. If anything a mothership or titan is more likely to be bumped. If you can get close to web a carrier you can get close enough to bump a supercap.
The phoenix is decent for capital fights. Not as nice as rev, nag, or moros, but certainly serviceable. None of the dreads are *that* bad. Just for the time and investment people will go after what they like versus flying anything. So there needs to be a niche or many will flock to the "right" dread.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:30:00 -
[25]
*Tosses his Moros plans into the fire*
Guess its the Amarr capital line for me afterall
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:47:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Gypsio III My cap alt flies a Moros. It's not the job of dreadnoughts to go about splatting subcapitals.
This.
(tho I do not have an alt wiht moros)
Get a domi folks, or a navy domi when they roll out for your camping needs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Geminimixer
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:08:00 -
[27]
Er get a domi? What the hell is a domi going to do on a station other than get ganked...
I just think this nerfs some of the "fun" of owning a moros. Its not OP. If you are in a sub cap and a moros is undocked you just have to realize that it is a powerful ship and you need to leave or maintain transversal. Not hard..
How can they be nerfing gallente more and leaving amarr. Amarr have the best fleet ships by far. For serious pvpers minmatar and amarr are the only way to go atm. If I was 100% gallente (thank god im not) I would be spewing right now.
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Aranis Nax
Minmatar Seraphim Blades
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:15:00 -
[28]
Why is/was the Moros based on the Dominix anyway? Why not the Megathron?
PS the five minute rule is ******* me off . ----- My Tempest fix suggestion: -1 high, +1 mid, +25m¦ drone bay/bandwith. Increase maneuverability. |
Geminimixer
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:36:00 -
[29]
If you lose your ship to Ogre II's you are an idiot. Heavy drones are rediculously slow. Why would you be at 0 on a moros anyway..
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Aionstar
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:14:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Seriously?!
:(
When is it going to be "Boost Gallente?"
Never! Facts: they love Amarr, oh yes, ooooh yeeaa! they hear about Mini.. Mima... oh, that slave-race they give Caldari DRAKE they hate Gallente (no need to remember all that nerf-pack)
or... when 99% chars be amarr oriented
they do many nonlogical things, like smallest ammo type require more time to reload then change huge lens or same as load missile bay... they call it "ballance"
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iudex
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:18:00 -
[31]
Don't know what to say ... I usually use only Caldari ships (roleplaying a bit), but I trained Gallente BS to 5 for the only purpose to be able to use the Moros as a drone ship. Trained heavy drones to 5 as well for this (Caldari BS don't use heavy drones). In 6 days the skill Gallente Dreadnought will be at 5 ... but now it's all wasted.
It's nothing new that the Moros has all that anti-subcapital abilities, why didn't they change it 3 years ago ? Instead now they upset all that people that trained for the Moros because of it's drone role ... no more fun at stations, that's just sad. _____________________________________________________ My skills // Faction Standings: Serpentis +8.02 / Angel Cartel +9.24 / Gallente Federation -10.00 |
Merbusent
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:27:00 -
[32]
Looks like the shineing to Gallente is over so pack ure bags and move on to something else
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:46:00 -
[33]
Dreads primary function is to destroy structures and other capitals, the change has absolutely no effect on this.
What it does affect is pirate/station Moros used to kill sub-capitals while itself being untouchable due to hitpoints. In essense a low-sec Moros nerf. Bumping is hard as hell and on some stations down right impossible to not an option.
A long overdue change as far as I am concerned.
What was taken is given. Triage cycle being halved will be an enormous boost to low-sec gate fights. Enough time to make a difference but short enough to avoid most unplanned (or they scheduled these days ) hotdrops
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:52:00 -
[34]
Well, it only took 10 pages to drag out of the dev that there are more issues with dreads that they want to look at than removing the main reason to fly the Moros. There may be hope yet! ----
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Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:04:00 -
[35]
Originally by: iudex no more immunity at stations, that's just sad.
FYP
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:08:00 -
[36]
This nerf has been a long time comin', and it is most deserved. Moros will still be best (and very efficient) against smaller ships, which it really doesn't deserve to be because that is not the dreadnoughts' role and no other dread can do it, now it just needs to be in siege. I'm sure the station games were fun for those of you who weren't prepared to risk something to gain something, but alas balancing has finally caught up. ----------------------
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Wideen
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:18:00 -
[37]
I don't see how this is a problem.
the moros will still have the advantage over other dreads of killing smaller ships (from frigates to bs) quickly with a neigh over-powered drone bonus, now it just has to commit to the fight before doing so. That it can do so in siege is however acceptable imo
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Dristra
Amarr Idle Haven
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:33:00 -
[38]
I feel that this change to the moros is sort of unfair, would be better to buff the performance of the other dreads vs small targets than handicap it like this.
At least give it the 10% per level that all drone boats have.
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Vyktor Abyss
Gallente The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:43:00 -
[39]
If they want to be "fair" then they should remove the unseiged bonuses from all the other Dreads too...
It makes absolutely no sense just to single out Gallente removing half their bonuses unseiged while other races still have their 2 bonuses.
Its a nerf for the sake of nerfing, since how many people actually whine about the unseiged 50% drone damage bonus? I've never seen any. Just plain daft.
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Aranis Nax
Minmatar Seraphim Blades
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:00:00 -
[40]
Originally by: CCP, think of me before you break my sploithammer! If you lose your ship to Ogre II's you are an idiot. Heavy drones are rediculously slow. Why would you be at 0 on a moros anyway..
I'm sure you can think of/have been in situations where target was at 0 and died before he could say:
GAME OVER MOROSDUDE
----- My Tempest fix suggestion: -1 high, +1 mid, +25m¦ drone bay/bandwith. Increase maneuverability. |
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:07:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss If they want to be "fair" then they should remove the unseiged bonuses from all the other Dreads too...
It makes absolutely no sense just to single out Gallente removing half their bonuses unseiged while other races still have their 2 bonuses.
Its a nerf for the sake of nerfing, since how many people actually whine about the unseiged 50% drone damage bonus? I've never seen any. Just plain daft.
The other dreads' bonuses apply to their CAPITAL weapons which are USELESS out of siege. So all those bonuses are indeed USELESS out of siege. The Moros' drone bonus was the only one that wasn't.
And since when is the number of people whining about any given subject any indication of actual game imbalance? To argue that Moros was fine on the basis of personally witnessed whining frequency is about as weak an argument as it gets.
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Ad Valorem
Minmatar Industrial Mite
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:43:00 -
[42]
Seriously who thought CCP would release a patch without the traditional Gallente nerf?
What was the last expansion where Gallente didn't get a nerf? 1980?
Hahahhaaaaahahaahaaa!
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fuxinos
Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:32:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Geminimixer If you lose your ship to Ogre II's you are an idiot. Heavy drones are rediculously slow. Why would you be at 0 on a moros anyway..
Ah, so everyone who gets killed by a Dominix or ishtar is an idiot, good to know
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:51:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Wideen I don't see how this is a problem.
the moros will still have the advantage over other dreads of killing smaller ships (from frigates to bs) quickly with a neigh over-powered drone bonus, now it just has to commit to the fight before doing so. That it can do so in siege is however acceptable imo
The problem — in fact, the only problem with this change — is that in siege, it will take roughly 93 years (give or take) for a Moros to lock onto a subcap… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:01:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Tippia it will take roughly 93 years
plus the limitations on number of locked targets in siege. Considering the tower is target #1, if you're in a small ship that is locked by a moros in siege just warp on grid. You'd have to be nearly afk to get locked and shot at.
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Levistus Junior
Caldari Trojan Trolls Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:08:00 -
[46]
In my opinion the reaction to this nerf is more of a psychological nature.
The loss of drone bonus out of siege hasn't affected Moros's performance as a fleet dread in any significant way. and this performace isn't stellar: it has less tank and DPS than both Naglfar and Revelation.
But having huge drone damage bonus outside siege gave the Moros a niche, a place where it was best, even if it was just for fun and/or pretty situational. (had my fair share of cap fights and can't remember any occurence when something important was achieved by unsieged Moroses shooting support).
With that gone, people are a lot more prone to notice the shortcomings that were always there.
My alt can fly a Thanny and was training for the Moros, so I can only hope they will look more carefully at balancing the Moros vs. the other dreads when it comes to DPS in siege.
Just my 2 cents.
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Gidgiddoni
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:12:00 -
[47]
fear not, they are ( maybe ) lowering the time in and out of siege for dreads....
so yes, u it will make moros on stations easier to kill if they siege, but on the flip side they will still be able to wreck absolute havoc if they are used smartly.
its a decent balance
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:18:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Tippia it will take roughly 93 years
plus the limitations on number of locked targets in siege. Considering the tower is target #1, if you're in a small ship that is locked by a moros in siege just warp on grid. You'd have to be nearly afk to get locked and shot at.
Ok, the only two things…
…and anyway, the target limitation wouldn't be that much of a limitation if the locking time was lower, so it's still only 1+ a problem at most. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:58:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Tippia The problem ù in fact, the only problem with this change ù is that in siege, it will take roughly 93 years (give or take) for a Moros to lock onto a subcapà
Lock ship. Sic drones. Go into siege. Drones keep shooting when you lose your lock. You'll be putting your trust in the drones rather ****ty AI to pick the next target though...
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:13:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 16/09/2009 16:12:53 assist drones to subcaps near you
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Elapidae
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:56:00 -
[51]
Moros needs bonus to drone control range, and drone optimal would be nice. No room for drone mods, drone damage is a huge chunk of its dps, and it cannot do that beyond 60km.
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xxxak
Caldari No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:00:00 -
[52]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: xxxak cry cry cry, cry cry cry.
Ships get nerfed all the time. EVE is about risk. If you are unhappy with a sieged dread that tanks 10000 dps and deals 1000 dps to sub caps for low sec station games... welll.. too freaking bad.
You didn't read the post, did you?
I did read the post. You obviously didnt read mine. A dread has an insane tank, especially sieged. There must be some risk involved. Currently, a Moros can play station games with literally near zero risk because nothing can kill it before it can dock. At least with the new system a fleet of 100 bs or 20 dreads could kill it before it could end its siege cycle and dock. That seems.... fair.. doesnt it?
The one problem is that a sieged dread has crap lock times, so I would support giving the Moros a boost of some sort in its ability to lock sub caps (? possible ?).
But honestly, dreads are not meant to for this crap, they are meant for cap warefare.
Get a carrier.
PPS. The Phoenix sucks 110% against sub caps and really sucks (very long missile flight time) in large cap wars (the real PURPOSE of Dreads), so until that is fixed, who cares about the moros.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:26:00 -
[53]
Originally by: xxxak Currently, a Moros can play station games with literally near zero risk because nothing can kill it before it can dock.
Meanwhile a carrier can do the same. Nerf carriers?
So is the station camping moros common enough that a nerf is needed? no.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:34:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Crackzilla Meanwhile a carrier can do the same.
Dreads are not carriers, though, and aren't meant to be all that useful against subcaps. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:37:00 -
[55]
Boost the crappy xl railguns and be done with it imo.
In my opinion "out of siege" should not be a role for a dreadnought at all especially not the killing of smaller craft.
If the railguns are up to par there is no problem.
And for what its worth they mentioned looking into all xl closerange guns to see if anything can be done about it. If close range guns would be more viable on dreads - that could also alleviate the problem. I don't know how exactly this could be done though. --
Originally by: Professor Slocombe
I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
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Vyktor Abyss
Gallente The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:51:00 -
[56]
You're arguing Jin, I'm just saying how disappointing it is...
Its sad that CCPs idea of balancing is to take something that is the only advantage of one certain ship compared to all others in its class, and then nerf it so that ship does nothing as well as any of the other races ships of that class.
Since the original "nerfbat Gallente" comment made by Abathur though they'd said they are looking at XL Blasters (and all short range XL weapons), so perhaps they will compensate the Moros for what its losing anyway. Here's hoping.
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xxxak
Caldari No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:14:00 -
[57]
Edited by: xxxak on 16/09/2009 19:18:26 ] Originally by: xxxak Currently, a Moros can play station games with literally near zero risk because nothing can kill it before it can dock.
Meanwhile a carrier can do the same. Nerf carriers?
1 carrier and dread roles are different 2 way to ignore the rest of my post incld the comments about the phoenix 3 50% drone dmg gave Moros a broken superpower with no analogy for other races or even carriers 4 don't like it, crosstrain
So is the station camping moros common enough that a nerf is needed? no.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:19:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Ulstan on 16/09/2009 19:20:51 The station hugging moros swatting sub capitals aside as an abomination. This change was long overdue.
Also, I don't know where you get the idea that the consensus is all dreads are equal.
The Moros and Rev are (or were) head and shoulders above the Phoenix and Nalf.
Originally by: iudex It's nothing new that the Moros has all that anti-subcapital abilities, why didn't they change it 3 years ago ? Instead now they upset all that people that trained for the Moros because of it's drone role ... no more fun at stations, that's just sad.
I think the tears of the people who can no longer pull off that particular bit of inanity is one of the best parts of this change. It should never have had that capability in the first place.
Training for the FOTM has its risks, as always.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:25:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Geminimixer Am training for Gallente capitals. Not happy with Moros change...Now it will be just the same as all the dreads.
I think this tells you all you need to know about the mentality of gallente pilots. Anything that brings their ship into line with the other races ships of the same class is a horrible horrible nerf!
Anyway, you're still better than the phoenix (worst dread) and arguably better than the nalfgar. You're not as good as the revelation, but that's an issue with the reveleation, not the moros.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:26:00 -
[60]
Originally by: xxxak 1 carrier and dread roles are different
And they still are. Dread can't use logistics effectively nor field fighters.
Originally by: xxxak
3 50% drone dmg gave Moros a broken superpower with no analogy for other races or even carriers
domi/ishtar have respectable drone bonuses. Carriers can field more than 5 drones versus outright drone bonus. So the analog did exist and the Moros was no superpower.
Originally by: xxxak
4 don't like it, crosstrain
I already have cross trained for the rev, the new fotm.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.16 20:25:00 -
[61]
I can fly all four races' Dreads quite effectively. I will be selling my Moros straight away if this change goes through. Zero need for it since I have a Revelation and Nag to use.
The *only* thing that made the Moros worthwhile was it's drone bonus while out of siege. Now it's just another pile of junk, right along side the Eos and Myrm. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Suukovesta
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Posted - 2009.09.16 22:14:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 16/09/2009 19:29:56
Originally by: Geminimixer Am training for Gallente capitals. Not happy with Moros change...Now it will be just the same as all the dreads.
I think this tells you all you need to know about the mentality of gallente pilots. Anything that brings their ship into line with the other races ships of the same class is a horrible horrible nerf!
Anyway, you're still better than the phoenix (worst dread) and arguably better than the nalfgar (also uses citadel torps). You're not as good as the revelation, but that's an issue with the reveleation, not the moros. This hasn't changed the power of a moros at all in fleet fights or POS shoots, you still get your drone bonus, just not while playing station games.
You obviously have no clue. Stop posting.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.09.16 23:04:00 -
[63]
Originally by: xxxak
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: xxxak cry cry cry, cry cry cry.
Ships get nerfed all the time. EVE is about risk. If you are unhappy with a sieged dread that tanks 10000 dps and deals 1000 dps to sub caps for low sec station games... welll.. too freaking bad.
You didn't read the post, did you?
I did read the post. You obviously didnt read mine. A dread has an insane tank, especially sieged. There must be some risk involved. Currently, a Moros can play station games with literally near zero risk because nothing can kill it before it can dock. At least with the new system a fleet of 100 bs or 20 dreads could kill it before it could end its siege cycle and dock. That seems.... fair.. doesnt it?
The one problem is that a sieged dread has crap lock times, so I would support giving the Moros a boost of some sort in its ability to lock sub caps (? possible ?).
But honestly, dreads are not meant to for this crap, they are meant for cap warefare.
Get a carrier.
PPS. The Phoenix sucks 110% against sub caps and really sucks (very long missile flight time) in large cap wars (the real PURPOSE of Dreads), so until that is fixed, who cares about the moros.
So, me saying that I approve of the change, but that it needs some sort of compensation since it will now be the by far worst dread both in and out of siege - is "cry cry cry cry cry". But you saying that the nerf is fine, but it should get a compensation through for example better sensor strength is fine?
The phoenix doesn't have very long flight time, in anything but long range. and ironicly, at the same long range, it will vastly outdamage the moros. Using blasters the phoenix starts outdamaging the Moros somewhere around Thorium(13km range). Rails simply can't match the damage with any reasonable setup. The fact that hybrids will have split damagetypes and hence pretty much always take a penalty for this makes it a tad worse. The one weakness I can see with the phoenix is it's destructable dps, but looking at how the moros gets either immobile(sentry) dps or closerange(combat drones) dps which are both destructable, I'd say the phoenix is better off even there.
As for carriers, if you're still preaching towards the gallente players who dislike the changes, you're telling them they can compensate for having the worst dread by flying the worst carrier. In my humble opinion they used to balance all the gallente capital ships this way:
The Moros was crap in siege, but awesome out of siege. The Thanatos is crap in use, but versatile in having good fitting and plenty of dronespace(getting nerfed). The Erebus is all in all good, not as popular as the Avatar for obvious reasons, but it gets a great gangbonus about to become even more important. The Nyx well... it gets it's looks and the fact taht most people with the relevant skills will be committed to gallente. There's no real reason to fly a nyx over any of the other motherships.
With the current devblog, gallente will maintain its pretty great titan.
Just for clarification, I don't mind them removing the drone bonus out of siege, but if they do remove the one edge it had, it SHOULD get some sort of compensation. Wether this comes in the shape of some drastic damagebonus, targeting, a tracking bonus, a tanking bonus(which obviously would be sort of useless in todays climate and being gallente) or even optimal bonus doesn't really matter. Point is it needs to get some sort of compensation if they're going to nerf an already subpar dread. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 74815
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Aranis Nax
Minmatar Seraphim Blades
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Posted - 2009.09.16 23:05:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wideen I don't see how this is a problem.
the moros will still have the advantage over other dreads of killing smaller ships (from frigates to bs) quickly with a neigh over-powered drone bonus, now it just has to commit to the fight before doing so. That it can do so in siege is however acceptable imo
The problem ù in fact, the only problem with this change ù is that in siege, it will take roughly 93 years (give or take) for a Moros to lock onto a subcapà
Put your drones to assist a tackler, that way they do what the tackler does and you don't have to waste godawful amounts of time locking targets.
That said, I'll repeat a question: Why is the Moros based on Dominix anyway? Why not base it on Megathron? damage bonus and tracking bonus. It's a siege engine firing motorcycle sized slugs. Why's it got wtfpwnage drones. ----- My Tempest fix suggestion: -1 high, +1 mid, +25m¦ drone bay/bandwith. Increase maneuverability. |
Amitious Turkey
Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 23:35:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Seriously?!
:(
When is it going to be "Boost Gallente?"
...
Boost Gallente!
BECAUSE OF FALCONDUST!
Originally by: CCP Navigator We love you all as well <3
GO NAVIGATOR <3 |
Krusten Kandis
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Posted - 2009.09.17 01:40:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Krusten Kandis on 17/09/2009 01:40:54
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: xxxak
3 50% drone dmg gave Moros a broken superpower with no analogy for other races or even carriers
domi/ishtar have respectable drone bonuses. Carriers can field more than 5 drones versus outright drone bonus. So the analog did exist and the Moros was no superpower.
You are correct that in a straight up dps comparison a carrier can come close to a moros, however there are a few small details that you might not be aware of. I will, however, try to enlighten you.
Carrier, max skills, all highs filled with Drone Control Units, can field 15 drones. Please note that all high slots are filled. Please also note that these drones were all on their basic hp which made them very vulnerable to sentry guns.
Moros, max skills, can field 5 drones with a 350% damage boost on them. This equates to 17.5 drones. Please note that no high slots are used for this and are free for things like heavy neutralizers, which some moros pilots use to completely drain the cap from smaller ships so that they cannot use microwarp drives. Please also note that these drones have a 350% boost to their hp, reducing their vulnerability to sentry guns immensely.
Now, to appease the angry masses I will say that I do agree that the moros will probably need a rework of some sort, though I think a drone control range increase should do just fine.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.17 02:03:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Krusten Kandis
Carrier, max skills, all highs filled with Drone Control Units, can field 15 drones. Please note that all high slots are filled. Please also note that these drones were all on their basic hp which made them very vulnerable to sentry guns.
Moros, max skills, can field 5 drones with a 350% damage boost on them. This equates to 17.5 drones. Please note that no high slots are used for this and are free for things like heavy neutralizers, which some moros pilots use to completely drain the cap from smaller ships so that they cannot use microwarp drives. Please also note that these drones have a 350% boost to their hp, reducing their vulnerability to sentry guns immensely.
its 50% per level for a 250% bonus. Thats roughly close to a carrier with a few dcus. The carrier can remotely rep the drones while the moros is going to be out of range except for sentry drones. The moros needs the drone hp buffer because it can't effectively rep them. A carrier can hold more spare drones than can a moros.
I can't recall any major whine thread about moros solopwnmobiles station campers.
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Derrios
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.09.17 02:16:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Aionstar
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Seriously?!
:(
When is it going to be "Boost Gallente?"
Never! Facts: they love Amarr, oh yes, ooooh yeeaa! they hear about Mini.. Mima... oh, that slave-race they give Caldari DRAKE they hate Gallente (no need to remember all that nerf-pack)
or... when 99% chars be amarr oriented
they do many nonlogical things, like smallest ammo type require more time to reload then change huge lens or same as load missile bay... they call it "ballance"
But its SO easy to hate the french amirite?
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Krusten Kandis
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Posted - 2009.09.17 02:20:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Krusten Kandis
Carrier, max skills, all highs filled with Drone Control Units, can field 15 drones. Please note that all high slots are filled. Please also note that these drones were all on their basic hp which made them very vulnerable to sentry guns.
Moros, max skills, can field 5 drones with a 350% damage boost on them. This equates to 17.5 drones. Please note that no high slots are used for this and are free for things like heavy neutralizers, which some moros pilots use to completely drain the cap from smaller ships so that they cannot use microwarp drives. Please also note that these drones have a 350% boost to their hp, reducing their vulnerability to sentry guns immensely.
its 50% per level for a 250% bonus. Thats roughly close to a carrier with a few dcus. The carrier can remotely rep the drones while the moros is going to be out of range except for sentry drones. The moros needs the drone hp buffer because it can't effectively rep them. A carrier can hold more spare drones than can a moros.
I can't recall any major whine thread about moros solopwnmobiles station campers.
Oh... oh my.
You have 100% base damage. You know, the damage the drones already do without any bonus? It would suck a lot of all ships had drones that did 0% damage right off the bat. Since I have the feeling you are not very good at math, I will point out that you add the bonus of 250% to the base 100% to get, yes, 350%.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.17 02:43:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Krusten Kandis I will point out that you add the bonus of 250% to the base 100% to get, yes, 350%.
fair enough.
carriers aren't known for omg dps. Looking at the cost versus dps and a carrier/moros isn't that far from a gank bs.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.17 03:10:00 -
[71]
Changes are awesome. Moros was OP with bonused drones out of siege.
D-F-C is recruiting |
Traxex Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.17 04:07:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Traxex Khan on 17/09/2009 04:07:43 You guys are killing me. Will someone go quote the description of the moros? It SAYS in the description that out of all the dreads, it is the one most able to "fend off smaller foes." So who cares that it's a dread and that "ZOMG IT'S A DREAD IT SHOULDN'T KILL ANYTHING SMALLER THEN A MOON RAAAAAAAAAGH." It was designed for that role. Where in eve does it say that every ship in a given class must do exactly the same things in exactly the same way? Since it's a dread it MUST shoot guns at things that are multiple Km's in length and that can't move? Last time I checked in... let's say... the BS class. Do all bs's do the same thing? Do they all excell in the same thing? Last time I checked a scorpion wasn't the same and didn't fill the same ROLE as the missle-spewing monstrosity that is the CNR. Nor did it have the ability to destroy smaller ships with drones like the Dominix. Everyone seems to be so concerned with making every class of ship do the same exact thing, and they're mistaken. Should all the battleships use guns and not be able to even touch a frigate? I'd prefer a little variety, personally. Maybe that's just me though.
THEY HAVE ROLES.
The Moros' role was to fend off smaller foes, so it was equipped with a smaller tank/gun dps as compared to, say, a Revelation. I don't see why that's so hard to understand. |
Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.09.17 08:01:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Traxex Khan Edited by: Traxex Khan on 17/09/2009 04:07:43 You guys are killing me. Will someone go quote the description of the moros? It SAYS in the description that out of all the dreads, it is the one most able to "fend off smaller foes." So who cares that it's a dread and that "ZOMG IT'S A DREAD IT SHOULDN'T KILL ANYTHING SMALLER THEN A MOON RAAAAAAAAAGH." It was designed for that role. Where in eve does it say that every ship in a given class must do exactly the same things in exactly the same way? Since it's a dread it MUST shoot guns at things that are multiple Km's in length and that can't move? Last time I checked in... let's say... the BS class. Do all bs's do the same thing? Do they all excell in the same thing? Last time I checked a scorpion wasn't the same and didn't fill the same ROLE as the missle-spewing monstrosity that is the CNR. Nor did it have the ability to destroy smaller ships with drones like the Dominix. Everyone seems to be so concerned with making every class of ship do the same exact thing, and they're mistaken. Should all the battleships use guns and not be able to even touch a frigate? I'd prefer a little variety, personally. Maybe that's just me though.
THEY HAVE ROLES.
The Moros' role was to fend off smaller foes, so it was equipped with a smaller tank/gun dps as compared to, say, a Revelation. I don't see why that's so hard to understand.
Sounds like an incredibly lame justification for imbalance to me. Is it not true that even after the change, Moros will still be -- by far -- most able out of all dreads to fend off smaller foes?
How convenient of you to interpret based on description that the role of a Moros -- as opposed to any other dread -- is to decimate smaller ships aswell. Variety, oh yes, a great excuse. They don't have to be balanced -- one can be overpowered but that just makes it different!
The fact that Moros had this ridiculously overpowered bonus in the first place is unfortunate since it has clearly lulled many into believing that they deserved that kind of advantage.
P.S. Do you notice the irony in how a description, to you, is more indicative of role intention than what CCP is doing? Clearly they don't know their own intentions! ----------------------
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Geminimixer
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Posted - 2009.09.17 10:31:00 -
[74]
Quote: Moros will still be -- by far -- most able out of all dreads to fend off smaller foes?
See in theory it will still be good at this. But in-game the Moros has just been made redundant.
Nerfing one of Gallente's last good ships is a good way to lose players. I am nearly 100% Gallente specced with Gall frigs V, Cruiser V and BS V and the only ship that I find to be competitive is the Dominix. I now spend nearly 0 time in Gallente ships. Seriously this is not a good change.
Quote: I think this tells you all you need to know about the mentality of gallente pilots. Anything that brings their ship into line with the other races ships of the same class is a horrible horrible nerf!
I was talking about how the Moros was unique. The only Gallente ships that are "in line" with ships of other races are the interceptors and the Dominix. Everything other ship is absolutely worthless or completely outdone. Who wants to fly Gallente? Anyone?
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Tulisin Dragonflame
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Posted - 2009.09.17 11:04:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Geminimixer
Quote: Moros will still be -- by far -- most able out of all dreads to fend off smaller foes?
See in theory it will still be good at this. But in-game the Moros has just been made redundant.
Nerfing one of Gallente's last good ships is a good way to lose players. I am nearly 100% Gallente specced with Gall frigs V, Cruiser V and BS V and the only ship that I find to be competitive is the Dominix. I now spend nearly 0 time in Gallente ships. Seriously this is not a good change.
Quote: I think this tells you all you need to know about the mentality of gallente pilots. Anything that brings their ship into line with the other races ships of the same class is a horrible horrible nerf!
I was talking about how the Moros was unique. The only Gallente ships that are "in line" with ships of other races are the interceptors and the Dominix. Everything other ship is absolutely worthless or completely outdone. Who wants to fly Gallente? Anyone?
The Myrmidon is awesome, too bad most people make it awesome by fitting it nothing like a Gallente ship. And the Iteron V is still great, right?
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.09.17 12:03:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Jin Entres
Sounds like an incredibly lame justification for imbalance to me. Is it not true that even after the change, Moros will still be -- by far -- most able out of all dreads to fend off smaller foes?
How convenient of you to interpret based on description that the role of a Moros -- as opposed to any other dread -- is to decimate smaller ships aswell. Variety, oh yes, a great excuse. They don't have to be balanced -- one can be overpowered but that just makes it different!
The fact that Moros had this ridiculously overpowered bonus in the first place is unfortunate since it has clearly lulled many into believing that they deserved that kind of advantage.
P.S. Do you notice the irony in how a description, to you, is more indicative of role intention than what CCP is doing? Clearly they don't know their own intentions!
Actually, the moros is worst of them to fend of support. Here's why.
All the other dreads can deal equal damage to the moros without fielding sentry drones hitting the pos. The moros can't, the end all dps includes the use of sentry drones constnatly hammering away. This means any other dread could drop 5 heavies and leave them orbiting the dread or even send to assist an intie.
Yes, it can sacrifice it's offense, to be decent at doing what the other dreads are doing. But all of a sudden it's the worst at doing it's main role of bashing the pos and barely better at taking care of the support since the limiting factor here will be speed and application rather than survivability of the drones and damage when all the drones have caught up anyway. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 621346
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Traxex Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.17 12:55:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Jin Entres
Originally by: Traxex Khan
...
Sounds like an incredibly lame justification for imbalance to me. Is it not true that even after the change, Moros will still be -- by far -- most able out of all dreads to fend off smaller foes?
How convenient of you to interpret based on description that the role of a Moros -- as opposed to any other dread -- is to decimate smaller ships aswell. Variety, oh yes, a great excuse. They don't have to be balanced -- one can be overpowered but that just makes it different!
The fact that Moros had this ridiculously overpowered bonus in the first place is unfortunate since it has clearly lulled many into believing that they deserved that kind of advantage.
P.S. Do you notice the irony in how a description, to you, is more indicative of role intention than what CCP is doing? Clearly they don't know their own intentions!
What i'm trying to say is that there's a reason that if you put the moros up against, let's say the revelation, in pos bashing, there's more then 1 reason that the revelation will be superior to the moros. While one is obviously the amarr FOTM nonsense, another is that the moros wasn't designed to be the top of the line pos basher. It gave up the tank/dps that the other ships have so that it could rest easy knowing that even when subcaps try to stop it, it would still be able to apply its damage to it's primary target while also fending them off.
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2009.09.17 14:12:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Traxex Khan
What i'm trying to say is that there's a reason that if you put the moros up against, let's say the revelation, in pos bashing, there's more then 1 reason that the revelation will be superior to the moros. While one is obviously the amarr FOTM nonsense, another is that the moros wasn't designed to be the top of the line pos basher. It gave up the tank/dps that the other ships have so that it could rest easy knowing that even when subcaps try to stop it, it would still be able to apply its damage to it's primary target while also fending them off.
The most obvious advantage of a Revelation would seem to me to be range: POSes have forcefields which put even XL blasters into falloff rendering their DPS lower.
But XL blasters have more damage to begin with, and this makes them better suited against other capitals, no? Provided of course that you can get into range. This is a common problem for blasters, though, although admittedly siege mods may make it relatively more difficult to dreads than for subcaps.
So so far we have: Moros less efficient against POS, but possible advantage against other capitals. This is a usual tradeoff since the dread role is twofold (anti-structure and anti-capital) and makes sense. Though I will agree that like for blasters of all sizes, range often trumps raw damage. That's a general concern and not dread specific, though.
Ok, so what else? Revelation has an extra low which translates to extra tank. That helps with everything, obviously. What does the Moros have? Hmm an extra mid. What might that be useful against? Sensor boosting to fare better against smaller ships? Target painting to also improve everyone's damage against smaller ships?
On top of this, Moros gets the drone bonus. Notice that Revelation only gets a cap use bonus which mostly just negates the high natural cap use of lasers. And not only drone damage and hitpoints, but Moros also gets twice the dronebay This means it has more versatility; it can carry both sentries, heavy drones, small drones etc to cope with different needs and have plenty of spares, too.
So compared to Revelation, when it comes to "fending off smaller ships", Moros has at least three distinct advantages. Two of these three are still equally useful out of siege.
Comparing rails and beams, Revelation has ~20% more damage. Moros has ~20% more optimal and ~50% more falloff (AM vs MF), though. Again a tradeoff like this is pretty standard. And Moros' cap lasts twice as long, so Revelation is certainly trading off for its edge in damage.
Oh by the way, your last sentence is contradicting: "It gave up the tank/dps that the other ships have so that it could rest easy knowing that even when subcaps try to stop it, it would still be able to apply its damage to it's primary target while also fending them off."
Moros, or any dread, cannot apply its damage to its primary target without being in siege mode. And this change will not change the drone damage in siege. So either you will have to concede that it can still do what you want it to do, or admit that you want something else -- namely, that you can pwn normal ships while ignoring the actual purpose of the dread.
Considering these differences I don't see Moros being particularly or unreasonably weak. XL rail damage could indeed be improved by a little, but that's a matter of taste (it already has range advantage, afterall).
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.09.17 14:22:00 -
[79]
I am just wondering where all of this hate for the moros has suddenly come from. I have encountered more pvp Rorqual gank boats than station hugging Moros gank machines and I have not seen a sigle whine thread or any crying in game. Besides the thing is so slow to lock and move only an idiot would die to one. It has an effective tackle range of what? 15km?
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.17 14:55:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Jin Entres Moros, or any dread, cannot apply its damage to its primary target without being in siege mode.
Problem is that the drone bonus is mostly worthless in siege mode except as a bad subsitute for a 4th rail. A moros in siege isn't much of a threat to subcaps. If the bonus only applies in siege then I'd rather have no drone bonus and a nice dmg or rof gun bonus.
If the moros can only do dps in siege then a Rev or a nag is a better choice for a dread.
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Lucas Schuyler
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Posted - 2009.09.17 15:35:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Krusten Kandis
Oh... oh my.
You have 100% base damage. You know, the damage the drones already do without any bonus? It would suck a lot of all ships had drones that did 0% damage right off the bat. Since I have the feeling you are not very good at math, I will point out that you add the bonus of 250% to the base 100% to get, yes, 350%.
Actually, its still 250%. The original damage is X. The bonus is 250% of X. So if X was say, 50 damage, then 250% bonus would be 125. If you say 350% then you are implying 175 damage.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.17 15:59:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Lucas Schuyler Actually, its still 250%.
I think he's saying that base 100% (50) + bonus 250% (125) = 350% (175). Otherwise 125 would be bonus only and not including the original 50 damage.
Otherwise level 1 would be base 50 * bonus 50% = 25 damage. A bonus probably doesn't decrease damage. So then it makes more sense that level 1 is base 50 * bonus 150% = 75.
I have the feeling that he is not very good at social skills nor explaining simple concepts to us ignorant folk.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.17 16:27:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Lucas Schuyler
Actually, its still 250%. The original damage is X. The bonus is 250% of X. So if X was say, 50 damage, then 250% bonus would be 125. If you say 350% then you are implying 175 damage.
Yeah, you've got it wrong.
By your math, if X = 50, and you give a 100% damage bonus to X, you'd end up with 50. A better way to say it would be: X = 50, X gets +250% damage. New damage would indeed be 175.
+250% Damage = 350% Damage.
Maths are awesome.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.17 16:41:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Seriously Bored Yeah, you've got it wrong.
By your math, if X = 50, and you give a 100% damage bonus to X, you'd end up with 50. A better way to say it would be: X = 50, X gets +250% damage. New damage would indeed be 175.
+250% Damage = 350% Damage.
Maths are awesome.
So is language. A 250% bonus means +250% for a total of 350%.
If X=50, a 100% bonus to X is another 50 for a total of 100. In your example, the 100% are not a bonus, but a base modifier. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.17 16:53:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Tippia So is language. A 250% bonus means +250% for a total of 350%.
If X=50, a 100% bonus to X is another 50 for a total of 100. In your example, the 100% are not a bonus, but a base modifier.
Okay, words this time.
It is actually in Lucas's example where the first 100% is not a bonus. From what I understand of his post, he believed the final damage, if X = 50, should be 125, which is not the case.
Krusten Kandis's original statements were correct. But due to the fact that there are multiple ways to express a bonus of 50% damage per level, other people got confused.
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Spaztick
Terminal Impact Kairakau
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Posted - 2009.09.17 16:58:00 -
[86]
I'm not sure I understand the whines here. A Moros in siege can still do 1100 dps with 5 Ogre IIs. With Ogre IIs. What other capital can do gank battleship levels of DPS and still be able to hit something other than a flying moon?
Quote: [21:18:10] SFShootme > first a carrier that goes boom, then mr viper had to find one of my goon alts, and now i'm down 182b ;( |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.17 17:04:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Seriously Bored Okay, words this time.
It is actually in Lucas's example where the first 100% is not a bonus. From what I understand of his post, he believed the final damage, if X = 50, should be 125, which is not the case.
Krusten Kandis's original statements were correct. But due to the fact that there are multiple ways to express a bonus of 50% damage per level, other people got confused.
Yes, fair enough. It's just the misuse of "bonus" that I object to.
There's really nothing anyone should be confused about since that "50% damage bonus per level" only really has one meaning — that at lvl V, you have a 250% bonus, ie 250% on top of your base damage, ie. 350% of your base damage.
…or, well… it could be interpreted in another way (as being multiplicative between skill levels), but that's never the case in EVE anyway. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
DeFtron
Gallente Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association Psychotic Tendencies.
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Posted - 2009.09.17 17:43:00 -
[88]
Edited by: DeFtron on 17/09/2009 17:46:03
Originally by: NoNah With the latest devblog, it's stated that moros is losing it's drone bonus when not in siege. Might not seem like a huge change, but... it really is, and here's why.
If you go over every single dreadthread back throughout history the consensus will be that the dreads are pretty much equal(Well, prior to the naglfar boost, the naglfar was worse, the rest on par. Since then both the phoenix and naglfar have recieved boosts), yet different. The Naglfar gets best damage, however thanks to suffering from ammoconsumtion and reloads, the revelation will still land on better damage in total. The phoenix will be on about par with the Moros for damage, however with no issues fitting weapon upgrades, an extreme range and most importantly being able to pick their damagetype, they're quickly back up there.
However... while the Moros was the obviously worst for pos-sieges and arguably worst for capital-fireworks it had one HUGE bonus. When it wasn't in siege, it could remove subcaps like no other. It was the hotdroppers wet dream, it was the end all of station games. And I can not but agree to it being to strong in this role. However, now that the out of siege role is gone, it can nothing but be compared on the equal grounds of siege, where it quite frankly comes short. Yes, the bonus is the same, but it must be used in an entirely different way. The advantage of removing tackle while tackling yourself is pretty moot.
So what I'm after with this thread is really two things. What do you think about the change as such? And maybe more importantly, if my thoughts are right in that the moros comes short in actual siege(even without really mentioning the destructable sentries) what would be the best way of compensating for this loss?
Well this change is a huge nerf for my lowsec missioning :S And im in the middle of training gal dread 5 (19d left). Moros is really good at doing many single pocket missions. Its really annoying when u get cought by a change like this in the middle of training such long rank 5 skill :S But i guess there's nothing i can do about it (if i would knew this is coming i would start training for gal carrier 5 instead). Im not sure why some players are complaining about moros station hugging. Its not really that common and dangerous anyway.
If CCP has to change moros then i would propose: Leave unsieged drone damage bonus but remove unsieged drone hit points bonus (and add sieged control range and optimal range bonus). This way moros's drones will be vulnerable to station guns and easier to kill for sub capitals. And as some already suggested dealing with smaller targets in siege is a big NO GO (max 2 locked targets and locking time).
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Elapidae
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Posted - 2009.09.17 17:45:00 -
[89]
Moros: -terrible dps beyond 60km, since cant control drones past that -unimpressive dps inside 60km, due to being stuck with rails -unable to anti-support due to locktime/locked target limit in siege
Only reason to choose moros before was you have no amarr sp or you felt like the out of siege fun made it worth it choosing a dread inferior at its primary role. I still have no amarr sp, but thanks to nag changes I'm switching to it instead of moros.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.17 17:47:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Spaztick I'm not sure I understand the whines here. A Moros in siege can still do 1100 dps with 5 Ogre IIs.
You won't be using ogre ii's 95% of the time. Bouncer IIs which cut into the dps. Plus you're limited to 57-60km range. I'd rather have another rail or a better bonus (rnge?) to the 3x ones we do have.
I'd rather the drone bonus cut in half out of siege and a 100% drone control range. That would make me happy.
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Elapidae
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Posted - 2009.09.17 17:53:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Elapidae on 17/09/2009 17:54:02
Originally by: Crackzilla Edited by: Crackzilla on 17/09/2009 17:50:55
Originally by: Spaztick I'm not sure I understand the whines here. A Moros in siege can still do 1100 dps with 5 Ogre IIs.
You won't be using ogre ii's 95% of the time. Bouncer IIs which cut into the dps. Plus you're limited to 57-60km range. I'd rather have another rail or a better bonus (rnge?) to the 3x ones we do have.
I'd rather the drone bonus cut in half out of siege and a 100% drone control range. That would make me happy.
Or as been suggested keep the dps bonus but cut the hp bonus so drones die fast to sentry guns.
Even with a drone control range bonus, you dont really have slots to fit omni tracking links, so your sentry range still sucks, and you have to drop down to warden ****ty dps.
imo, remove the drone bonus completely, give another rail bonus. megathron dread instead of dominix dread.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.09.17 20:26:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Geminimixer Nerfing one of Gallente's last good ships is a good way to lose players. I am nearly 100% Gallente specced with Gall frigs V, Cruiser V and BS V and the only ship that I find to be competitive is the Dominix. I now spend nearly 0 time in Gallente ships.
What is this nonsense?
The gallente have a ton of good ships. The taranis is the best interceptor. The Ishkur is the best AF. The Thorax is the best T1 cruiser (or at least tied with rupture). The Brutix is an amazing tier 1 battlecruiser -did you see how many were fielded in the AT? Myrmidon, Ishtar, and Dominix are all great, and saw heavy use in the AT. Even mega's featured prominently. The dominix is possibly the best and most versatile BS in the entire game.
There was certainly a much greater showing for Gallente BS than Minmtar BS in the AT.
Originally by: Traxex Khan [You guys are killing me. Will someone go quote the description of the moros? It SAYS in the description that out of all the dreads, it is the one most able to "fend off smaller foes."
Are you seriously trying to advocate game balance decisions based on ship descriptions? Ship descriptions are worthless. Half the ships in EVE aren't worth flying and the ship descriptions do not say this.
Having super powered drone deploying Moros station camping and popping sub caps with such ease was ridiculous, and its being fixed. If you never did that, this change won't really impact you. If you did that, your tears are delicious, please continue.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.17 20:35:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Ulstan its being fixed. If you never did that, this change won't really impact you.
But it will. Relatively few station camped. Most pilots fly the Moros because of that unsieged drone bonus. Without that bonus and with the weakness of the moros then other dreads are preferred.
So every pilot that uses a Moros will feel this nerf while few station camped.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.17 20:48:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Crackzilla Most pilots fly the Moros because of that unsieged drone bonus. Without that bonus and with the weakness of the moros then other dreads are preferred.
So ask them to give you a bonus that makes it worth sieging it. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Psiri
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Posted - 2009.09.17 21:12:00 -
[95]
I like the proposed change, capitals IMO should have no place in sub-capital and non-POS engagements.
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Geminimixer
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Posted - 2009.09.18 03:51:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Geminimixer on 18/09/2009 03:52:16
Quote: The gallente have a ton of good ships. The taranis is the best interceptor. The Ishkur is the best AF. The Thorax is the best T1 cruiser (or at least tied with rupture). The Brutix is an amazing tier 1 battlecruiser -did you see how many were fielded in the AT? Myrmidon, Ishtar
Sure they are good ships, its just the fact that the harbinger outclasses all of them by a long way. The harb compared to the ishtar, has more EHP, aligns faster and does 600dps out to 30km and costs 100 mill less. Why bother flying any of those Gallente ships..
In a gang all of those ships are redundant.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.09.18 05:20:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/09/2009 05:22:07
Originally by: Geminimixer
The harb compared to the ishtar, has more EHP, aligns faster and does 600dps out to 30km and costs 100 mill less. Why bother flying any of those Gallente ships..
The Ishtar does 475 dps (ogres only, add in turrets) with vastly superior range, and for the record it aligns much faster than the harbinger (4.9 sec base Ishtar vs 8 sec base Harb on max skills), plus it has a much lower signature and is way faster.
Not everything is EHP and dps numbers, or there would be no reason to fly a Harbinger over a Drake.
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Suukovesta
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Posted - 2009.09.18 10:40:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Ulstan
Originally by: Geminimixer Nerfing one of Gallente's last good ships is a good way to lose players. I am nearly 100% Gallente specced with Gall frigs V, Cruiser V and BS V and the only ship that I find to be competitive is the Dominix. I now spend nearly 0 time in Gallente ships.
What is this nonsense?
The gallente have a ton of good ships. The taranis is the best interceptor. The Ishkur is the best AF. The Thorax is the best T1 cruiser (or at least tied with rupture). The Brutix is an amazing tier 1 battlecruiser -did you see how many were fielded in the AT? Myrmidon, Ishtar, and Dominix are all great, and saw heavy use in the AT. Even mega's featured prominently. The dominix is possibly the best and most versatile BS in the entire game.
There was certainly a much greater showing for Gallente BS than Minmtar BS in the AT.
This is so 2006. Please stop spreading your nonsense, you obviously have no clue.
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Wideen
Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2009.09.18 12:44:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wideen I don't see how this is a problem.
the moros will still have the advantage over other dreads of killing smaller ships (from frigates to bs) quickly with a neigh over-powered drone bonus, now it just has to commit to the fight before doing so. That it can do so in siege is however acceptable imo
The problem ù in fact, the only problem with this change ù is that in siege, it will take roughly 93 years (give or take) for a Moros to lock onto a subcapà
dreads are anti-capital/structure ships, not subcap solo pwners. The rest of the dreads have this problems as well, except they don't have a drone bonus.
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Shepard Book
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.09.18 13:12:00 -
[100]
I am so glad my thanny pilot has not trained Gal guns yet. I was also hoping to go moros but guess I will go back to the drawing board and see which if any dread I want now. |
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.18 13:32:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Wideen
dreads are anti-capital/structure ships, not subcap solo pwners. The rest of the dreads have this problems as well, except they don't have a drone bonus.
The moros isn't a subcap solo pwner that much more than the rorqual or carriers. While the dps is good it isn't that far off from a blaster mega. The reason why it has been used as a station camper is because of the combination of drone dps and hp buffer.
The rest of the dreads have compelling reasons to fly them, with the possible exception of the phoenix. So should we nerf the rev because it doesn't need ammo? Or the nag because it has 4 weapon high slots and good dps at range? Or the phoenix because it can change ammo type?
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Tiel Enim
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Posted - 2009.09.18 15:49:00 -
[102]
This is what comes out of being a station hugging r.e.t.a.r.d. ebil piwat.
Whos laughing now when the nerf-bat hits you in the middle of your face?
Noosebleed much?
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CyberRaver
Silentium Mortalitas
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Posted - 2009.09.18 15:56:00 -
[103]
Anyone not happy with the nerf should chat to safina kalore, who has made a living out of station humping in her moros,specially fit to take on everything small Always the minority ruining it for the majority
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Rossarian
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Posted - 2009.09.18 16:22:00 -
[104]
Enjoying station hugging with my Moros myself (and tbh it is no more lame than most other 'good tactics', like cloak monkeys, sniper hacs etc...), I am saddened by the prospect of losing one of my favorite pastimes. But on the bright side, I will be 1.5+ bil the richer after the change, and won't ever have to bother with a boring pos siege again, so there are good sides to this as well.
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Tiel Enim
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Posted - 2009.09.18 16:32:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Rossarian Enjoying station hugging with my Moros myself (and tbh it is no more lame than most other 'good tactics', like cloak monkeys, sniper hacs etc...), I am saddened by the prospect of losing one of my favorite pastimes. But on the bright side, I will be 1.5+ bil the richer after the change, and won't ever have to bother with a boring pos siege again, so there are good sides to this as well.
Yepp. Leave the dreads to real combat pilots and you mouthbreathers can go back to gatecamping in low sec.
Win - win situation!
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.09.18 16:40:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Tiel Enim This is what comes out of being a station hugging r.e.t.a.r.d. ebil piwat.
Whos laughing now when the nerf-bat hits you in the middle of your face?
Noosebleed much?
rorqual gank boats are just as deadly and a more common sight...
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2009.09.18 20:50:00 -
[107]
This is an extremely appropriate change...
One thing of note: While this may change how some players have to play, the ship hasn't actually been seriously nerfed here. It retains the ability (alone in it's class) to be effective versus support ships.
The only change now is that the pilot has to commit to the battle... no more dock games with it. Either you're going to fight or your not. If you make the decision to fight, the ship is as good as it ever was.
I'm pretty glad to see CCP making this change tbh.
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TheEggman
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Posted - 2009.09.18 21:07:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Tom Peeping This is an extremely appropriate change...
One thing of note: While this may change how some players have to play, the ship hasn't actually been seriously nerfed here. It retains the ability (alone in it's class) to be effective versus support ships.
The only change now is that the pilot has to commit to the battle... no more dock games with it. Either you're going to fight or your not. If you make the decision to fight, the ship is as good as it ever was.
I'm pretty glad to see CCP making this change tbh.
That comment would be valid if you could lock more than 2 targets while in siege and it didn't take 2 minutes to lock subcaps while in siege. As it is the primary target will be taking one target slot, so you can target one other ship in 2 minutes, send drones after it, most likely have it warp off, then spend another 2 minutes trying to lock another sub-cap. That's not exactly capable vs. sub-caps. It's a serious nerf.
The rev is just better than a Moros at all normal dread tasks. The nag has as good a tank and better damage. The phoenix is a bit lower on DPS but can select its damage type and has insane range with good DPS which makes it fairly decent. The capital railguns suck pretty badly for damage and the use of sentry drones is required to get decent DPS on a target in siege, while the drones themselves are quite vulnerable and a real pain to try to pick up after the fight. That makes the Moros sub-par for typical dread ops, but it was still OK since it had the nest chance of killing off tacklers outside of siege. It traded off functionality in siege for functionailty out of it. Now it just sucks at both.
And FYI, I fly Rev, not a Moros.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.18 21:16:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Tom Peeping
One thing of note: While this may change how some players have to play, the ship hasn't actually been seriously nerfed here. It retains the ability (alone in it's class) to be effective versus support ships.
As stated in as many ways possible that this nerf will make it ineffective against support ships. There is no compelling reason to fly the moros while there are good reasons for the rev & nag.
Originally by: Tom Peeping
The only change now is that the pilot has to commit to the battle... no more dock games with it. Either you're going to fight or your not. If you make the decision to fight, the ship is as good as it ever was.
Leaving the barn door open for the station camping rorqual, thanatos, archon, chimera, or nid. Plus plated gank bs.
Docking games are what should have been nerfed. I hate low sec because of docking games and jumping back to empire. Increase aggro timer and the problem would have fixed itself.
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Norris Packard
Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.18 22:13:00 -
[110]
Blaster Issues: There are many issues being presented here about the Dreadnought class of ships, Dreadnoughts have always felt to me to be the gunboats of the capital fleet but they are mostly pittiful out of seige and can't really bring their close ranged weapons to bear on POS or moving Capital ships. The inability to move when seiged seems to be a major issue, yes seige should negate warp and jump abilitys, but seems the ships should be able to still do their slow basic manuvering thus being able to stay with other capitals and bring their firepower to bear.
Drone Change Issues: Like the proposed change to the Carrier's siege mode (would make them able to move sieged also) maybe making the dreads a 5min duration would also make this change to the moros less felt. Someone also mentioned making the moros drones still get 10% per level out of siege and that seems like a good idea. The last big issue about the seige is how long it takes to lock on and it should take a long time to lock but the 2 lock on limit means that after the drones deal with a ship they have not locked onto the next ship yet, making the seige mode limit targets locked has never made much sense to me so maybe a solution to the issue is just abolishing it.
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
EXTERMINATUS. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.18 23:56:00 -
[111]
Im not sure why everyone thinks the Rev is just so awesome.
It has horrible cap problems. Just firing its guns along will get its cap down into at least the 40% range. If you have to tank at the same time, forget about it. Phoenix and Nag has capless weapons, Moros might drop below jump cap in POS seiges, but it quickly gets back up. After a prolonged siege of just shooting a defenseless POS, a Rev requires minutes of sitting on the field to cap up, before it can jump, a moros can jump almost immediately...Unless you brought carriers just to cap transfer the Revs...
The whole "lasers are overpowered" meme going around really confuses me. CCP removed 10% em resist on armor, 10% explosive on shields, gave the apoc a range bonus, the zealot an extra turret, and suddenly lasers are overpowered?
People have obviously not finished training their amarr skill yet
Originally by: CCP Whisper No it is not an official statement. Not everything surrounded by blue bars is an official statement which can be quoted as fact until the end of time. Deal with it.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.09.19 01:08:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Im not sure why everyone thinks the Rev is just so awesome.
It has horrible cap problems. Just firing its guns along will get its cap down into at least the 40% range. If you have to tank at the same time, forget about it. Phoenix and Nag has capless weapons, Moros might drop below jump cap in POS seiges, but it quickly gets back up. After a prolonged siege of just shooting a defenseless POS, a Rev requires minutes of sitting on the field to cap up, before it can jump, a moros can jump almost immediately...Unless you brought carriers just to cap transfer the Revs...
The whole "lasers are overpowered" meme going around really confuses me. CCP removed 10% em resist on armor, 10% explosive on shields, gave the apoc a range bonus, the zealot an extra turret, and suddenly lasers are overpowered?
People have obviously not finished training their amarr skill yet
I consider the drone nerf in the Moros necessary and well done. But I can't stay quite facing these clueless remarks.
Lasers ARE horrible overpowered. And the revelation is the best dread by a ridiculous margin, there is no motive in this game to train for anything else.
Aditionally rails are a HEAVIER cap drain over the Moros than Lasers are over the Revelation, just to let you know. And neither the Moros nor the Revelation need to wait more than a couple minutes to jump after siege, unless you fit them horribly.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.19 04:12:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 19/09/2009 04:13:51
Originally by: Norris Packard the moros drones still get 10% per level out of siege
Meanwhile the rorqual has a better bonus if I recall. So we need to nerf the rorqual next? Then carriers?
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Im not sure why everyone thinks the Rev is just so awesome.
Because the Rev and the Nag doesn't rely on drone damage that stops at 60km. If you're willing to wait for the torps even phoenix is better in this regard. Which is why if a nerf is a must many have asked for the drone bonus to be dropped completely and bonus the rails properly.
Originally by: Etho Demerzel unless you fit them horribly.
With trimark setups cap is a bit of an issue when trying to perma run the tank. But yeah if the tank is turned for a bit then cap shouldn't be an issue.
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Dixi We
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Posted - 2009.09.20 14:48:00 -
[114]
I'm really disappointed about Moros drones nerf.
I'm always looking for PvE fun in game. Next my plan was to make a Moros to hunt in belts. I do not care that it's umm... made for different things. Is has good dps with sentry drones so why not? And now it's going to be nerfed. :-( Very disappointing. If I were already trained for it, I whould be much more upset - because it take a lot of time.
EVE is fun to play, due to is diversity. One well known guy is mining Veldspar in Revelation(?) in Amarr. That dread also never made for that goal. Show CCP forbid minig laser installation on it? I do not think so.
Same about Moroes. It has good bonus to drones, witch compensate it's less usefulness in primary goal (as I was told), compared to other dreads. Ships should be different. I do not think Moroes is too overpowered now.
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Bluemelon
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Posted - 2009.09.21 11:22:00 -
[115]
The Moros was somehow special in certain situation due to its drone bonus. Now CCP has chosen to remove this plus; nothing to say about that, but Moros now need to be put in line with our Dreads in terms of efficiency and damage. I agree a good way may be to compensate the lost drone bonus with an Hybrid bonus.
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chockojako
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Posted - 2009.09.25 03:09:00 -
[116]
Station hugging complaint cry babies, please shut up. What do you do if a battleship hugs a station and shoots you? What happens when a BC shoots you at a station? also, many stations kick you out and one other thing go to high sec to feel safe. Or Lets fix this Problem and make all PvP in low sec optional, that way no one has to complain about being shot at, now wipe those tears away because I know how much PvE is in your hearts.
The Moros had a great character in having the drone bonus. This balancing act CCP does really take away from the races. Maybe every1 should start as amarr then we could all fly all the same ships and all the complaints would go away and CCP would have to actually do something like fix all the game bugs currently and the many that will be added to the next patch.
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