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New 11% Tax for all NPC Corps

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Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:09:00 - [541] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Hamshoe So... he wins by doing it wrong? Mad props, as it were. But that does explain the support for the tax: so many people afraid of getting beaten. Unless you're saying that PvE is PvP, in which case the initial complaint is utter nonsense. No, I'm saying that he wins by PvPing everyone into submission. .. through PvE. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Asuka Smith Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:10:00 - [542] I am honestly shocked and appalled at how many people are telling me I am wrong when I say EVE is a PVP game, CCP waited FAR too long on this change.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:10:00 - [543] Originally by: Hamshoe Edited by: Hamshoe on 22/09/2009 12:04:21 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs I for one spent 10 days in a noob corp when I started EVE, it was dull. Oh jeez! Well that changes everything. You sir, are the gold standard of navel gazing. Yes, my opinion cahnges everything. And yes, I found noob corps to be dull. You where more or less alone, and nothing happend, its only purpouse to me, was to find a player driven corp. I see you failed to grasp what I was trying to say. But I guess you are just dense and only able to try and come up with personal insults. Go cry some more, it seems to be what you do best (Did you have a point to your post, cause it only seemed you felt insulted? ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
PostWithYourAlt	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:13:00 - [544] This Thread keeps being dragged off topic into a hatred PVE vrs. PVP war in a way that makes the pvp crowd seem blinded against what the real issue is. CCP Eris and CCP Soundwave(as it seems) are proposing a fix to a symptom instead of proposing a fix to the yet not even determined cause. The "fix" will naturally not have the desired effect and thus is not even a fix but rather just a "random change". The critic is that we as players want CCP Gamedesigners to act thoughtfull and make changes to the game that actually mean something. Actual fixes that fix actual problems. All the "I am PVP" and "I am PVE" attitutes aside, everyone will agree that the game does not profit from half thought through unmeaningfull changes. You should all be thankfull to the guys raising this in demonstration of their protest to CCP regarding this kind of workflow within their game design deparment. The next miscue "fix" could be impacting you too.
Cadde Gallente FireworX	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:13:00 - [545] Boohoo! Do the math, compare 0.0 ratting with running missions and you should quickly (if you do it right) find that 0.0 ratting and mission running on average give you the same isk per hour ratio. The big difference here is the RISK vs REWARD factor. Being in a NPC corp makes you invulnerable to EVERYTHING except a suicide gank. No matter if you are in a corp or not, losing your ship in a mission does NOT count towards the RISK vs REWARD ratio, as it is right now that can be easily overcome with a proper fitting and will remain the same until CCP decides to change it up. In 0.0 you face more than just the rats blowing your ship to a thousand pieces. You have roaming gangs, blobs, invasions and even solo PvP'ers looking for your stuff and tears. So how is a 11% tax in any way a bad thing after you consider how horribly unbalanced the RISK vs REWARD ratio is between empire and 0.0? I for one would appreciate any change that makes empire activity worth less than half of what it is today. Give every single person an incentive to seek fame and fortune where the risks are higher but the rewards tenfold. I don't see where the fun in gathering ISK for the sake of gathering ISK is. What will you do with all your isk and faction fitted gear when you get tired of doing the same thing every day with the only goal being gathering ISK? Sure, i can admit i like gathering ISK as well, but i do it with a goal of starting a corp that will be competitive amongst the bigger badder corps out there. I could just as easily start now but i don't see the gain (apart from PvP fun) in doing so. I want to conquer and to conquer i need a starting capital. With the upcoming changes to sov, CCP are opening a lot of new doors for those who wanna gain access to the riches of less secure space. But in the meantime they also need to decrease the profits of high security space. Setting up this 11% tax on NPC corps is just the first step. Wait until they decrease the bonties on your mission rats and your LP gain for being in highsec is not the same as being in "less sec" and the rewards should be in line with what you risk. Risk 100 mil for X amount of hours and you should gain 200 mil over the same period. The X amount of hours should be in direct relationship with the amount of time you can survive. That is, if you make 200 mil where you invested 100 mil and go pop after 30 minutes in 0.0, that is just fine, becuase you still have a 100 mil gain and you did it in 30 minutes. If you now do the same in high sec you should have to spend 600 minutes (6 hours) to gain that same 100 mil and your 100 mil investment should "normally" go pop after those 6 hours. If you pop faster than 6 hours you need to learn how to avoid it. If you don't pop then good, you have learned how not to go pop and can now move on to more lucrative deals. (low sec and null sec) Staying put in "dull space" is just like saying: I am fine with not having fun and paying just as much real money as those who actually have fun. Let me tell you, if you enjoy what you are doing right now in your NPC corp then you have no clue on what you are missing OUTSIDE of that NPC corp. And not all player corps are scam/slave/grief corps. All you need to do is talk to those who know where the good ones are. It all begins with trust, who you trust is up to you but having IRL friends is a good start. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Cassiopeia Draco	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:18:00 - [546] Originally by: Hamshoe So... he wins by doing it wrong? Mad props, as it were. But that does explain the support for the tax: so many people afraid of getting beaten. Unless you're saying that PvE is PvP, in which case the initial complaint is utter nonsense. PvE is not PvP, there is a distinction, PvP is where you compete with other players, PvE is competing against computer run ships (serpentis, Sansha, sleepers, et al). Consider Mining is a PvP as you are competing for resources with other players. When was the last time a mission runner 'competed' for a mission with another player, about the closest a mission runner gets to PvP is with ninja salvagers who compete for the salvage.
Neon Delight	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:19:00 - [547] Taxes don't encourage players to "go here" and "do this" or "get out" of npc corps. New content, more dynamic game play and cool graphics are a far better "carrot", as CCP knows. Tax will be a non-issue for mission runners faster than you can strap on the tin foil hat and say "What, raising my taxes to give a bail out to what player run bank(s)?" Ambulation will be the big thing to get players out exploring the corners of the EvE universe they don't care about right now. So long as it includes more than just "station" environments, and eventually includes things like walking around in your own ship, walking around on planetary surfaces -- THAT will get folks out of Empire.
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:26:00 - [548] Originally by: Neon Delight Taxes don't encourage players to "go here" and "do this" or "get out" of npc corps. New content, more dynamic game play and cool graphics are a far better "carrot", as CCP knows. Tax will be a non-issue for mission runners faster than you can strap on the tin foil hat and say "What, raising my taxes to give a bail out to what player run bank(s)?" Ambulation will be the big thing to get players out exploring the corners of the EvE universe they don't care about right now. So long as it includes more than just "station" environments, and eventually includes things like walking around in your own ship, walking around on planetary surfaces -- THAT will get folks out of Empire. 11% taxes to the NPC or 0 - 100% taxes to you and your fellow players? This, in addition to all the awesome features that already exist is not encouragement enough? Sure, thoose who will not care and still be NPC will not care and pay for the 11%, and does that matter? No. They pay 11% for protection basically. If they want to make the most isk, they set up one man corp, or band togheter. This also makes 0.0 alliance mission alts cry a little bit. Either they loose 11% of the income, or they choose to take some more risk for more rewards. Although one man corps have little to none risk anyways.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:27:00 - [549] Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: Tippia No, I'm saying that he wins by PvPing everyone into submission. .. through PvE. No. By very definition, you can't beat someone through PvE (unless we're talking about a high-score system). Cornering markets, beating everyone to juicy resources, providing services to other players — none of these are PvE. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:35:00 - [550] Originally by: PostWithYourAlt This Thread keeps being dragged off topic into a hatred PVE vrs. PVP war in a way that makes the pvp crowd seem blinded against what the real issue is. CCP Eris and CCP Soundwave(as it seems) are proposing a fix to a symptom instead of proposing a fix to the yet not even determined cause. The "fix" will naturally not have the desired effect and thus is not even a fix but rather just a "random change". The critic is that we as players want CCP Gamedesigners to act thoughtfull and make changes to the game that actually mean something. Actual fixes that fix actual problems. All the "I am PVP" and "I am PVE" attitutes aside, everyone will agree that the game does not profit from half thought through unmeaningfull changes. You should all be thankfull to the guys raising this in demonstration of their protest to CCP regarding this kind of workflow within their game design deparment. The next miscue "fix" could be impacting you too.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:44:00 - [551] Originally by: Asuka Smith I am honestly shocked and appalled at how many people are telling me I am wrong when I say EVE is a PVP game, CCP waited FAR too long on this change. Shocked and appalled So you think the PvE content was some kind of oversight? It just happened to show up? Tell me this: would a 1% change in your corporate tax rate get you to change corps? Will dozens, if not hundreds, of one player corps increase "interaction"? The support for this is bumper-sticker reasoning: a bunch of hollow slogans and pantomime indignation. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
sxndy Gallente Snuff inc	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:45:00 - [552] Originally by: Asuka Smith I am honestly shocked and appalled at how many people are telling me I am wrong when I say EVE is a PVP game, CCP waited FAR too long on this change. CCP were waiting on this change? I want to speak to their boss ....... NOW!
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:51:00 - [553] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs I see you failed to grasp what I was trying to say. But I guess you are just dense and only able to try and come up with personal insults. Go cry some more, it seems to be what you do best More to the point, you failed to say anything beyond, "I like this" as though that had meaning beyond yourself. You'll forgive me if I don't find that particularly compelling. btw, I love the recursive bit there, feeling a bit dense? Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:58:00 - [554] Originally by: Hamshoe a bunch of hollow slogans and pantomime indignation. In a nutshell the NPC crowd does this with 'how dare they tax my mission running income' Player Corp crowd counters with 'welcome to reality'. PVE probalby since the release of eve, and was there to give new players a way of building wallets, before they went into the big bad world of EvE, NOT to encourage endless grind for 0 risk, and a endless supply of isk. PvE missions are 0 risk, especially if you read the Eve-survival guides, on my main I've lost 4 ships in 3 years doing missions, 1 BS (mega), 1 BC (Myrm) and 2 Cruisers (both Thorax). Two due to lag/disconnects, one due to being distracted and i forgot to clear the scrambler, and the final one due a poor tank and bravado. In PvP over the same period I've lost 30 times that number on same account.
Hythloday Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:00:00 - [555] A summary of the reactions to this development 2+ year old newbcorp campers: Ohgod this will Ruin the GameÖ as we are all made the slaves of player corporations, and constantly wardecced by every chicken high-sec pirate in the game. Why can't you all just leave us alone, we don't want to cooperate or compete with other players in a persistent online universe. How dare CCP disrespect my gamestyle of essentially paying a monthly fee to play a single player game with a built in IRC channel full of newbs and alts. My gamestyle is sacred and cannot be changed, regardless of the number of unpopular changes that CCP have forced on those who have actually played the game outside of an NPC corp that I have welcomed with open arms (warp to zero). etc etc etc. Genuine new players who belong in newb corps: My ship just turned into an egg, did I level up? What tax? What's a corp? Everyone else in Eve: 'bout time.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:03:00 - [556] Originally by: Hythloday A pretty biased summary not reflecting people¦s true issue: Change does not achieve the goal.
Doddy The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:07:00 - [557] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Hythloday A pretty biased summary not reflecting people¦s true issue: Change does not achieve the goal. He was certainly reading the same thread as me.
Cassiopeia Draco	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:11:00 - [558] Originally by: Doddy Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Hythloday A pretty biased summary not reflecting people¦s true issue: Change does not achieve the goal. He was certainly reading the same thread as me. And me, seemed about the right mix of sentiments.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:17:00 - [559] Quote: Change does not achieve the goal. = bad change.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:18:00 - [560] Originally by: Avalon Champion Originally by: Hamshoe a bunch of hollow slogans and pantomime indignation. In a nutshell the NPC crowd does this with 'how dare they tax my mission running income' Player Corp crowd counters with 'welcome to reality'. PVE probalby since the release of eve, and was there to give new players a way of building wallets, before they went into the big bad world of EvE, NOT to encourage endless grind for 0 risk, and a endless supply of isk. PvE missions are 0 risk, especially if you read the Eve-survival guides, on my main I've lost 4 ships in 3 years doing missions, 1 BS (mega), 1 BC (Myrm) and 2 Cruisers (both Thorax). Two due to lag/disconnects, one due to being distracted and i forgot to clear the scrambler, and the final one due a poor tank and bravado. In PvP over the same period I've lost 30 times that number on same account. So, to your points: 1.) Even if we accept your premise, mission running is obviously not "0 risk", that's a false claim. 2.) This is a game, reality is whatever they make it. "Welcome to reality" is meaningless as an argument. 3.) Missions are obviously not there exclusively to give new players a chance to build their wallets, otherwise it wouldn't be so profitable and there wouldn't be an issue. Finally and more importantly, this does little if anything to advance the stated goal of the change. It merely appeases a jealous constituency. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Doddy The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:18:00 - [561] Originally by: Michwich As soon as people are in the mix its PVP. What form of PVP people prefer is the only difference. It would be like saying the only form of competition is UFC, or war. Wrong, theres many forms of competition that dont involve physical contact - see life.Unfortunately this games short on some. You are confused about what PvP is. Pvp is where two players can effect each other. Competing for wallet size is no more PVP than any score in any single player game. The only PvP mission runners participate in is through using the market where they compete on prices when they buy/sell, and that is a highly passiveform of pvp (unless they are a trader on the side but then they aren't pure mission runners). It would be different if agents or missions were limited in some way (number of players an agent can have on a mission at a time) and players had to compete to get them, which is how i think the mission system should work tbh.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:20:00 - [562] Originally by: Julian Lynq Quote: Change does not achieve the goal. = bad change. …except that this very thread proves you wrong. It's just that you assume a different goal, and then extrapolate the chance of success from there. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:20:00 - [563] Originally by: Avalon Champion In a nutshell the NPC crowd does this with 'how dare they tax my mission running income' I think you should look closer at a lot of the arguments. A majority is not saying what you claim they are. They're saying that this is not a solution that'll solve whatever the problem is! First of all, CCP has not defined what problem they're trying to solve. That people are in NPC corp is not an inherent problem, but just a symptom. The real problem is somewhere else.... Is it that missions pay too much? Is it that pirates have too few corp to wardec? CCP hasn't told us.... Secondly, while this may move a lot of people out of NPC corp, most of them will move into the WRONG type of player corp, ie. their own little 1-man world. These players will now be out of the social interaction in the NPC corp, which is where people usually meet up and decide to form player corp together WHEN THEY ARE READY! In short, the problem is not defined, and the 'solution' will have much bigger detrimental effects than what small positive effect there may be.... Try to get a perspective.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:23:00 - [564] Originally by: Hythloday Why can't you all just leave us alone, we don't want to cooperate or compete with other players in a persistent online universe. Although you may find this shocking, interacting with you is not one of the better features of EVE. Sorry. If NPC Corps are the sweet and happy life, why isn't everyone doing it? Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Hythloday Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:27:00 - [565] Edited by: Hythloday on 22/09/2009 13:32:38 Originally by: Julian Lynq Quote: Change does not achieve the goal. = bad change. Lets not get confused here. You don't like the change, but all this has any bearing on is your own response to the change, it has nothing to do with the overall statistical change in the behavior of the player base. There will be those who are spurred by this to find good player corps to join. There will be those who go and create their own 1-2 man corps in which to carry on doing what they were doing before the tax. There will be those who, out of spite, choose to stay right where they are despite earning 11% less money. You can't say that just because you don't like the change, or just because YOU don't plan to alter your behaviour, that the changes will achieve absolutely nothing. The change isn't aimed at YOU personally. Originally by: Kerfira Secondly, while this may move a lot of people out of NPC corp, most of them will move into the WRONG type of player corp, ie. their own little 1-man world. These players will now be out of the social interaction in the NPC corp, which is where people usually meet up and decide to form player corp together WHEN THEY ARE READY! Try not to imply that those who form one man corps are going to trap themselves. We have recruitment forums and channels for when they get bored of the solitude.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:28:00 - [566] Originally by: Doddy The only PvP mission runners participate in is through using the market where they compete on prices when they buy/sell, and that is a highly passiveform of pvp (unless they are a trader on the side but then they aren't pure mission runners). Or in short, mission runners do participate in PvP it's just the wrong kind? This becomes less and less about player interaction, and more about control. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Gunnanmon Gallente Imperial Syndicate Forces The Laughing Men	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:31:00 - [567] Christ with this thread Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:33:00 - [568] Originally by: Hythloday There will be those who are spurred by this to find good player corps to join. Noone will go find a player corp to join because of a net income decrease of something between 3 and 5%. People join player corps because they want to socially interact, not so they can earn 5% more income- what a bad corp would that be that¦d attract theese kinds of players?
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:33:00 - [569] Originally by: Hythloday There will be those who are spurred by this to find good player corps to join. How many who wouldn't have done so anyway? I don't think you can say, any more than you can say it will make any difference at all. It's just human nature. Even in active war zones (silly real world comparison, I know) generally less than 5% of a population chooses to move. People are much more likely to just sit and see what fate brings. Would a 1% change in the tax rate be enough to move you, or would it take something else? Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:38:00 - [570] Edited by: Tippia on 22/09/2009 13:40:39 Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: Doddy The only PvP mission runners participate in is through using the market where they compete on prices when they buy/sell, and that is a highly passiveform of pvp (unless they are a trader on the side but then they aren't pure mission runners). Or in short, mission runners do participate in PvP it's just the wrong kind? This becomes less and less about player interaction, and more about control. No. Mission runners still only participate in PvE. However, very few people are only mission runners (because that would get them nowhere, and fast) — they also dabble in trading, in salvaging, occasionally in manufacturing. All these other activities are PvP, but they are also different and separate activities. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

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