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New 11% Tax for all NPC Corps

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Burning Horizon The Lighthouse Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:22:00 - [1] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14 It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hasn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me) It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average. Looks like those isk farmers in Npc corps are getting a nerf Source
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:25:00 - [2] Note to self, take a forum vacation before patch-day.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:27:00 - [3] I love the fact they used 11% as tax rate instead of the standard 10%. 11% for wardec immunity sounds fine to me and it's only a nerf to mission/ratting bounty income anyway, so industry and trade alts are unaffected.
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:28:00 - [4] Now raise it to 50%. I WANT REAL TEARS CCP. REAAAAAAAAAAAAAL TEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARS! Commencing forum ****down in 5... 4... 3... (timefluxdetected).. 1..
Gunnanmon Gallente Imperial Syndicate Forces The Laughing Men	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:31:00 - [5] Quick, every player corp change your tax to 100% for a bit. Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:33:00 - [6] HOLY **! THE TEARS! THE **ING TEARS! the new expansion has just become the bestest ever with this. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Celeritas 5k Caldari Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:34:00 - [7] Or add an 11% tax to all sell orders as well... - Always be Happy, Never be satisfied.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:36:00 - [8] CCP Eris Discordia deserves a beer from every player!
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:43:00 - [9] Originally by: baltec1 CCP Eris Discordia deserves a beer from every player! better yet, a keg. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Troll Bridgington	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:44:00 - [10] I can't wait for this expansion...

Caiman Graystock Caldari Comrades in Construction	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:45:00 - [11] Dominion is shaping up to be possibly the BEST expansion yet? Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking... Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:47:00 - [12] Originally by: Gunnanmon Quick, every player corp change your tax to 100% for a bit. Already doing my part to throw off the average.
Skalet	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:48:00 - [13] and the people rejoiced
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:52:00 - [14] Originally by: Grimpak HOLY **! THE TEARS! THE **ING TEARS! the new expansion has just become the bestest ever with this. It was already the best ever with the 0.0 changes... but now this. And the faction ships. And the AF boost. And the supercap changes. There's almost too much awesome in this expansion. I'm approaching critical levels of awesome overload. Be careful, CCP, because this expansion is really going to raise the bar of people's expectations for the next one. Incarna had better be goddamb fantastic.
Troll Bridgington	Posted - 2009.09.19 14:53:00 - [15] Maybe CCP *does* listen after all...
Dasola	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:01:00 - [16] now i would just love to see hove much those npc corps actually make throw this tax. Hope they keep records unlike real goverments that seems to lose money without knowing where it gone.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Gunnanmon Quick, every player corp change your tax to 100% for a bit. Good plan, but how would that work? For every 100 ISK they would have earned, 1 is removed form their wallets? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Gunnanmon Gallente Imperial Syndicate Forces The Laughing Men	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Gunnanmon Quick, every player corp change your tax to 100% for a bit. Good plan, but how would that work? For every 100 ISK they would have earned, 1 is removed form their wallets? Or every isk is removed, depends on your definition of 100% tax :P Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:17:00 - [19] This'll actually not matter all that much for mission runners..... According to my statistics, taxable ISK income from L4 missions is 31% of the total you can earn. The rest comes from LP, loot and salvage. This means that for a mission runner, the 11% will actually be an effective tax of 3.41%. Not really that high a cost for wardec immunity. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:19:00 - [20] Originally by: Kerfira This'll actually not matter all that much for mission runners..... According to my statistics, taxable ISK income from L4 missions is 31% of the total you can earn. The rest comes from LP, loot and salvage. This means that for a mission runner, the 11% will actually be an effective tax of 3.41%. Not really that high a cost for wardec immunity. Not entirely true. That assumes that you are looting and salvaging. Many times, believe it or not, you can make more isk/hour without salvaging all together, and only looting choice wrecks when you have time. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:

Gunnanmon Gallente Imperial Syndicate Forces The Laughing Men	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:20:00 - [21] Originally by: Kerfira This'll actually not matter all that much for mission runners..... According to my statistics, taxable ISK income from L4 missions is 31% of the total you can earn. The rest comes from LP, loot and salvage. This means that for a mission runner, the 11% will actually be an effective tax of 3.41%. Not really that high a cost for wardec immunity. True or not, it's still fodder for teh whiners. So it will prolly matter more than it actually does,if you know what I mean. Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:21:00 - [22] Originally by: Kerfira This'll actually not matter all that much for mission runners..... According to my statistics, taxable ISK income from L4 missions is 31% of the total you can earn. The rest comes from LP, loot and salvage. This means that for a mission runner, the 11% will actually be an effective tax of 3.41%. Not really that high a cost for wardec immunity. Maybe so, but it will at least strongly incentivise looting and salvaging and LP over the wholly non-competitive pure ISK making component of mission income. This means that the PvP part of mission income is made more attractive. Also, it's counter inflationary (more stuff created, less ISK created). Let the ninja salvage whines begin.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:22:00 - [23] Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 15:26:30 Originally by: Blane Xero Not entirely true. That assumes that you are looting and salvaging. Many times, believe it or not, you can make more isk/hour without salvaging all together, and only looting choice wrecks when you have time. True... However, even if it goes up to 5% or so effective tax, I still think it is cheap It'll also change the 'when-is-it-worth-salvaging/looting' equation slightly.... Originally by: Malcanis Maybe so, but it will at least strongly incentivise looting and salvaging and LP over the wholly non-competitive pure ISK making component of mission income. I think 'strongly' is too big a word.... 'nudge' is probably more apt... Originally by: Malcanis Also, it's counter inflationary (more stuff created, less ISK created). I don't actually think this is what is needed! Minerals are hitting the artificial 'floor' under mineral prices set by insurance, which indicates that there are in fact too MANY minerals in the game and not enough ISK. Salvage is also going down, though it'll still take a while before we know where it'll settle after the rig changes. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:22:00 - [24] It's a fair change. Good IMO. BTW, Originally by: Grimpak HOLY **! THE TEARS! THE **ING TEARS! the new expansion has just become the bestest ever with this. If tears is what you're looking for, check out GD and Assembly Hall. Plenty of tears there due to recent scanner changes, unless of course pirate tears don't count .
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:24:00 - [25] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 It's a fair change. Good IMO. BTW, Originally by: Grimpak HOLY **! THE TEARS! THE **ING TEARS! the new expansion has just become the bestest ever with this. If tears is what you're looking for, check out GD and Assembly Hall. Plenty of tears there due to recent scanner changes, unless of course pirate tears don't count . Why am i the only non-pirate who hates the scanner changes _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:30:00 - [26] Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 19/09/2009 15:32:45 Ohnoes! Need a market alt in a one man corp to sell my stuff. Wait. I got 3 of those already. Phew... EDIT: And the reason for not putting it in the patch notes... it is not like this would be the first time where CCP implements hugely unpopular changes and "forgetting" to put it in the patch notes. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:33:00 - [27] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Ohnoes! Need a market alt in a one man corp to sell my stuff. Wait. I got 3 of those already. Phew... Corp tax doesn't apply to market activity.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:36:00 - [28] Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 19/09/2009 15:35:56 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Jowen Datloran Ohnoes! Need a market alt in a one man corp to sell my stuff. Wait. I got 3 of those already. Phew... Corp tax doesn't apply to market activity. Dang, no reason to leave STI at all then. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Benwah Empire Arms Dealers	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 19/09/2009 15:32:45 Ohnoes! Need a market alt in a one man corp to sell my stuff. Wait. I got 3 of those already. Phew... EDIT: And the reason for not putting it in the patch notes... it is not like this would be the first time where CCP implements hugely unpopular changes and "forgetting" to put it in the patch notes. Why would you need market alts in one man corps? The tax only applies to mission rewards and bounties. Also, I don't think this idea will be unpopular. More carebears in player corps = more fun Come and get it Signature Locked. Please refrain from amending a moderated warning. Zymurgist
Mutnin Mutineers	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:43:00 - [30] Confirming that I will be collecting the tears tax..

Lt Shard Mentis Fidelis Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:48:00 - [31] Originally by: Mutnin Confirming that I will be collecting the tears tax.. Can I have some of those tasty tasty tears? _________________________ Yes, I know the Titan is small in my sig.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:50:00 - [32] Again, if pain and suffering is what some of you are after there are plenty of pirate tears around. O wai... pirate emorages don't count, amirite?
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.09.19 15:58:00 - [33] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Again, if pain and suffering is what some of you are after there are plenty of pirate tears around. O wai... pirate emorages don't count, amirite? Count or not, they're funny. --Vel
Some Advisor	Posted - 2009.09.19 16:00:00 - [34] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Grimpak HOLY **! THE TEARS! THE **ING TEARS! the new expansion has just become the bestest ever with this. It was already the best ever with the 0.0 changes... but now this. And the faction ships. And the AF boost. And the supercap changes. There's almost too much awesome in this expansion. I'm approaching critical levels of awesome overload. Be careful, CCP, because this expansion is really going to raise the bar of people's expectations for the next one. Incarna had better be goddamb fantastic. ...lacks ambulation... nuff said ;P of course its awesome :P as usual.. maybe one day we get an unscheduled minipatch and suddenly we have ambulation ;) ....i still remember somewhere about "player controlled sentry guns" or somethign for 0.0 sov stuff
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.09.19 16:02:00 - [35] Originally by: Khemul Zula Originally by: Gunnanmon Quick, every player corp change your tax to 100% for a bit. Already doing my part to throw off the average. Pfft, I've been throwing the average off in the opposite direction for years _ Info about our corp \| Beginer's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.09.19 16:12:00 - [36] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Again, if pain and suffering is what some of you are after there are plenty of pirate tears around. O wai... pirate emorages don't count, amirite? All tears count, but since you are tied to your perspective, you can't enjoy them all. Some tears feel more justified then others and sometimes you shead the tears instead of drinking them, but whatever happens the game goes on.
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.19 16:14:00 - [37] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Again, if pain and suffering is what some of you are after there are plenty of pirate tears around. O wai... pirate emorages don't count, amirite? Hey easy, some people are really low on tears due to losing them all in real life, so let the emo *gots drink their tears here. Better then in RL where theyd be serial raging in our neighbourhoods, but damn it would be so easy to pwn them there, why CCP insists on tieing our hands behind our backs to fight these losers is beyond me. Maybe they are ones themselves? I But there isnt enough tears emo *gots can drink to replace the ones they lose on a daily basis unfortunately. Let them drink.
Caelum Mortuos Gallente Zero G Research and Development	Posted - 2009.09.19 16:47:00 - [38] oh lord, fantastic! In before the ****storm
Jen Khai Black Hawk Down Syndrome	Posted - 2009.09.19 16:55:00 - [39] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Grimpak HOLY **! THE TEARS! THE **ING TEARS! the new expansion has just become the bestest ever with this. It was already the best ever with the 0.0 changes... but now this. And the faction ships. And the AF boost. And the supercap changes. There's almost too much awesome in this expansion. I'm approaching critical levels of awesome overload. Be careful, CCP, because this expansion is really going to raise the bar of people's expectations for the next one. Incarna had better be goddamb fantastic. What's incarna?
Faife Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.09.19 16:56:00 - [40] it's a good thing. it'll get people to join 5% player corps to make more money and actually fly in groups. as a bonus, they'll learn about intermediate level eve skills like remote repping and war dec corp hopping -- Check out my EVE cartoons - most recent: #17 Goomba needs a new job

Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.19 17:00:00 - [41] Originally by: Faife it's a good thing. it'll get people to join 5% player corps to make more money and actually fly in groups. No, it won't! A few people might jump into one-man corp (ready to make a new one if wardec'ed), another few into 'real' corp. The large majority of NPC players will most likely stay in NPC corp. Frankly spoken, since only a relative small part of a mission runners income is taxed (30-50% depending on how you run the missions), we're looking at a maximum of about 5% effective tax. I think most people are willing to pay that to avoid wardec's.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Lexa Hellfury The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.19 17:10:00 - [42] And how hard is it to make a 1-man corp? Originally by: RedSplat The Forum moderation Software known as Mitnal became self aware. CCP had no choice but to shut it down.
Dramaan	Posted - 2009.09.19 17:10:00 - [43] Edited by: Dramaan on 19/09/2009 17:12:27
Some Advisor	Posted - 2009.09.19 17:31:00 - [44] Originally by: Lexa Hellfury And how hard is it to make a 1-man corp? very... you need to learn 1 or 2 skills in corp management GASP and even social stuff maybe carebears wont like it :>
fuze Gallente Quam Singulari Cult of War	Posted - 2009.09.19 17:42:00 - [45] Originally by: Lexa Hellfury And how hard is it to make a 1-man corp? How hard is it to dec a 1-man corp?
Andrest Disch Amarr Debitum Naturae	Posted - 2009.09.19 17:52:00 - [46] Originally by: fuze Originally by: Lexa Hellfury And how hard is it to make a 1-man corp? How hard is it to dec a 1-man corp? How hard is it to disband and reform your one man corp every time it gets decced?
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.19 17:54:00 - [47] Edited by: ceaon on 19/09/2009 17:54:24 Originally by: Lexa Hellfury And how hard is it to make a 1-man corp? now CCP only have to make 100m tax to make a corporation edit: also add some skill to lvl 5
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2009.09.19 18:07:00 - [48] Originally by: Faife as a bonus, they'll learn about intermediate level eve skills like remote repping and war dec corp hopping lol SKUNK (o)
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.19 18:09:00 - [49] Oh great exactly what eve needs, getting more risk-free pvpers wardeccing rookies.
Frug Repo Industries	Posted - 2009.09.19 18:10:00 - [50] \/ - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor

Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.19 18:18:00 - [51] Originally by: Furb Killer Oh great exactly what eve needs, getting more risk-free pvpers wardeccing rookies. Exactly.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.09.19 18:19:00 - [52] Epic. My sig don't fracking work.
Kaar Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2009.09.19 18:21:00 - [53] Originally by: Furb Killer risk-free pvpers kk ---
Haakelen Gallente Angels.	Posted - 2009.09.19 18:22:00 - [54] I had to read the OP about three times. It's kinda hard wrapping my head around the words "CCP devs" and "great decisions", but thankfully it looks like I'll have to get used to it. Three cheers for the devs! Now, just implement a corp refining tax.
Marcel Resnais	Posted - 2009.09.19 18:37:00 - [55] Sounds pretty good to me. 11% isn't that much and hi-sec mission running is already grossly out of whack. This won't make it unprofitable, but it might encourage some hi-sec npc corp people to jump into player corp to make a little extra isk. I'm curious as to whether this will be applied to Faction Warfare militias as well. I can see it going both ways. On the one hand, people in FW corps cannot be war decced. On the other, there is a kind of permanent "war dec" in relation to other FW corps. Should be interesting to hear the details as they develop.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.09.19 18:39:00 - [56] 11% is an excellent number, because it's prime - therefore there will never be round numbers dropping in the wallet. And it's enough to make it worth forming your own corp, without actually being particularly crippling - anything that encourages people to group up is a good thing IMO.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.19 18:40:00 - [57] Originally by: Kaar Originally by: Furb Killer risk-free pvpers kk Considering i notice sarcasm: How large do you think the risk is for a bunch of abaddons with neutral guardian support to camp rookies in station?
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.19 18:47:00 - [58] Originally by: Marcel Resnais This won't make it unprofitable, but it might encourage some hi-sec npc corp people to jump into player corp to make a little extra isk. By my calculations, it'll drop my L4 income from 52.2m/hour to 50.4m/hour.... People may create a one-man corp, but they'll drop from it as soon as the first wardec comes in, and probably not bother making another one. Question: Can't one-man corp be dissolved instantly without the 24-hour waiting period? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Ekeim	Posted - 2009.09.19 19:18:00 - [59] I doubt there would be much danger of wardecs if the npc corp players all split off and formed their own one man corps. Given wardec costs, it would be economically unfeasible for corps to dec a significant number of them. Using one man corps to get around tax is kind of a hackish, fighting against the mechanics not with them, sort of solution - already enough of them in game as it is. IMO, they should focus on giving players a reason to want to join up with others. This solution doesn't do that; it just makes them not want to be in an NPC corp.
Lui Kai Capital Endeavours	Posted - 2009.09.19 19:27:00 - [60] Originally by: Kerfira Question: Can't one-man corp be dissolved instantly without the 24-hour waiting period? Yes. ----------------

Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.19 19:53:00 - [61] Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 19:54:21 Originally by: Lui Kai Originally by: Kerfira Question: Can't one-man corp be dissolved instantly without the 24-hour waiting period? Yes. Well, that basically settles it, doesn't it? This change will have absolutely NO practical implications! Players now in an NPC corp who'd have to pay taxes after the change will simply move to a one-man corp. When they get wardec'ed they simply drop the corp, and create a new one. The cost of that (for me) on sisi was 1.6m ISK, which is just about what I'd lose in an hour missioning due to taxes. So in effect, all this will do is take social interaction that does happen in noob corp out of the game! Taking social interaction away from a game is not really all that good for an MMO, is it? PS: Incidentally, I think I also discovered a bug on sisi... If you try to create a corp with a name that is already taken, you get charged for it anyway Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Haakelen Gallente Angels.	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:01:00 - [62] Originally by: Kerfira So in effect, all this will do is take social interaction that does happen in noob corp out of the game! hi how do i get a quest BUY THIS CONTRACT [links it 30 times every 5 minutes] Моё судно на воздушной подушке полно угрей! yo newbies check out MY GOLEM WITH 10B WORTH OF OFFICER MODS ON IT AREN'T I COOL what's a jita nobody told me how to get a quest BUY THIS OTHER CONTRACT Yeah, I can see what you mean. How dare CCP infringe on this paragon of human interaction.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:06:00 - [63] Originally by: Haakelen Yeah, I can see what you mean. How dare CCP infringe on this paragon of human interaction. While there is a bit of that, it's relatively minor. The noob corps actually DO have a goodly amount of social interaction..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:14:00 - [64] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Haakelen Yeah, I can see what you mean. How dare CCP infringe on this paragon of human interaction. While there is a bit of that, it's relatively minor. The noob corps actually DO have a goodly amount of social interaction..... An 11% tax isn't stopping that. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Clytamnestra A Slinger of Guns	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:24:00 - [65] You're only taxed on mission rewards and rat bounties right? What's 11% off of an L4? Not all that much is it? It should have been something like 25% or 30%, in my opinion.
Mire Stoude The Undesirables	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:25:00 - [66] My OCD has kicked in and I demand that the tax be set to 15% (nice round number).
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:29:00 - [67] Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 20:31:07 Originally by: Bellum Eternus An 11% tax isn't stopping that. The point of the post (#61) above was to show that taxing noob corps forcing players into one-man corp would have absolutely NO effect! Wardec's are simply so easy to avoid that players would just move into those one-man corp, but dodge any wardec's coming their way with minimal cost (for me, that was one hours worth of tax). Thus, the only real effect of a change like this would be to move players from a corp where they had interaction with other players, into a corp where they didn't. There'd be no additional combat people like you (or me for that matter), nor much ISK taken out of the game! Players not caring whether they pax tax would stay in noob corp. Players who does care would simply create one-man corp after one-man corp as they got wardec's. Originally by: Clytamnestra What's 11% off of an L4? Not all that much is it? It's even worse. My average taxable earnings from missions are only 31% of the total (LP/loot/salvage are not taxed). Thus making the 11% into a grand total of 3.41% Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Haakelen Gallente Angels.	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:31:00 - [68] Originally by: Kerfira The point of the post (#61) above was to show that taxing noob corps forcing players into one-man corp would have absolutely NO effect! Wardec's are simply so easy to avoid that players would just move into those one-man corp, but dodge any wardec's coming their way with minimal cost (for me, that was one hours worth of tax). We're in agreement! Make it a 25% tax, and patch wardec avoidance loopholes. Voila.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:34:00 - [69] Originally by: Haakelen We're in agreement! Make it a 25% tax, and patch wardec avoidance loopholes. Voila. Well.... The whole reason for this forum is to help CCP refine and perfect their game mechanics changes, isn't it? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

CCP Eris Discordia	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:48:00 - [70] Few comments - You often need special access and things to be able to change parts of the website, including patchnotes. These can only be edited by community developers, not by game designers like me. We are releasing updates to SISI as soon as they are testable and this was the first big one so patchnotes came up after SISI went out really. We aren't trying to hide it or anything, if we wanted to hide it..then why would it be on the test server? - We have no plans at the moment to change wardecs - I don't drink beer, but black russians, shots or amaretto - As someone mentioned, the tax is more an encouragement and a nudge towards joining a player corporation than a command. You still have the choice to stay in the NPC corporation and in high sec and mine or run missions. Pink Dread has been hijacked


Burning Horizon The Lighthouse Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:51:00 - [71] Edited by: Burning Horizon on 19/09/2009 20:51:03 I'll still buy you a beer, so when you reject it, i can have it myself

CCP Eris Discordia	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:53:00 - [72] Very cunning Pink Dread has been hijacked

TheLordofAllandNothing Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:55:00 - [73] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Few comments - You often need special access and things to be able to change parts of the website, including patchnotes. These can only be edited by community developers, not by game designers like me. We are releasing updates to SISI as soon as they are testable and this was the first big one so patchnotes came up after SISI went out really. We aren't trying to hide it or anything, if we wanted to hide it..then why would it be on the test server? - We have no plans at the moment to change wardecs - I don't drink beer, but black russians, shots or amaretto - As someone mentioned, the tax is more an encouragement and a nudge towards joining a player corporation than a command. You still have the choice to stay in the NPC corporation and in high sec and mine or run missions. Marry me. _______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =(
Arcelian Amarr	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:56:00 - [74] So whats to stop someone from just making their own one or two man corp and putting the tax to 0%?
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:56:00 - [75] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia We aren't trying to hide it or anything, if we wanted to hide it..then why would it be on the test server? Because CCP are actually part of the Illuminati or some crazy jazz.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:57:00 - [76] Originally by: Arcelian So whats to stop someone from just making their own one or two man corp and putting the tax to 0%? Nothing. Why should there be? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:57:00 - [77] Originally by: Arcelian So whats to stop someone from just making their own one or two man corp and putting the tax to 0%? Absolutely nothing. That's pretty much the idea, to make you almost want to create a one-man corp instead of sticking in the NPC ones. That way you CAN be wardecced. _ Info about our corp \| Beginer's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper
Ralavina	Posted - 2009.09.19 20:58:00 - [78] Originally by: Arcelian So whats to stop someone from just making their own one or two man corp and putting the tax to 0%? That's the POINT. Ralara's banned again so this is my alt :p
Arceliun	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:01:00 - [79] I thought the POINT was to put a kink in isk farmers operations, not make it so anyone can be war dec'd. Who really wants to war dec a one man corp anyway?
Andra Zeit	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:02:00 - [80] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia - As someone mentioned, the tax is more an encouragement and a nudge towards joining a player corporation than a command. You still have the choice to stay in the NPC corporation and in high sec and mine or run missions. Why? If You do not like that players are in NPC Corps and not in Player Corps, there are other ways to built the sandbox as You like it. Much players like the freedom.. no "You must have Team Speak, Corp Mining Every Sunday..., You have to go to Domain". All these players are happy customers of EvE and pay for Your job. And now You want to make them more happy? Is this You want?

Mangold Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:04:00 - [81] finally
OwlManAtt Gallente Yasashii Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:06:00 - [82] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Very cunning oi, I saw you on TV! --- Owl
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:12:00 - [83] Because imagine playing eve without being able to wardec some miners or grief some rookies with your fleet of station camping BS with neutral rep support. But for some reason ccp shows again they are obsessed with getting people to play the sandbox game the way they want. Since it is obviously better to not be able to talk with many others (yes rookie corps may be filled with spam, but the npc corp i have been in quite alot wasnt), because ccp prefers you in a one man corp.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:13:00 - [84] Originally by: Andra Zeit Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia - As someone mentioned, the tax is more an encouragement and a nudge towards joining a player corporation than a command. You still have the choice to stay in the NPC corporation and in high sec and mine or run missions. Why? If You do not like that players are in NPC Corps and not in Player Corps, there are other ways to built the sandbox as You like it. Much players like the freedom.. no "You must have Team Speak, Corp Mining Every Sunday..., You have to go to Domain". All these players are happy customers of EvE and pay for Your job. And now You want to make them more happy? Is this You want? Just pay the 11% then. Or create a corp with none of the things you dont like about every single player corp in the game, no exceptions there, nosiree, they're all 100 % exactly as you describe
MooKids Caldari Azure Twilight Engineering	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:14:00 - [85] Personally, I welcome our new NPC Corp tax overlords. Seriously, this does have a nice benefit as it is also a way to remove some ISK out of circulation, in a way, slightly curbing inflation. -------------------------------- CCP can patch away bugs, but they can't patch away stupidity.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:16:00 - [86] Originally by: Akita T Absolutely nothing. That's pretty much the idea, to make you almost want to create a one-man corp instead of sticking in the NPC ones. That way you CAN be wardecced. The wardec will be useless against a one-man corp. Dropping from a normal corp takes 24 hours. Disbanding a one-man corp takes 1 second. Then you're free to make another one-man corp which takes 24 hours to wardec. Repeat... Basically, every time a one-man corp created for tax-avoidance reasons are wardec'ed, this will be the effects: 1. The corp is disbanded. 2. The wardec'er will have wasted 2m(?) on the wardec. 3. The player will create another one-man corp at the cost of 1.6m ISK. 4. He'll play along happily (except for now having NO interaction with other players). 5. The database will contain an entry for another disbanded corp. 6. The number of useful names/tickers for corp will be decreased by one (well, maybe). 7. The usefulness of a players corp listing will be degraded. Tbh, a change like this is completely useless unless something is changed in wardec's too. I see little, if any useful effects of this change if it is done standalone.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:18:00 - [87] Kerfira, there is one change, only the more experienced players know about that, the newer players will be easier targets
Andra Zeit	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:19:00 - [88] Originally by: Malcanis Just pay the 11% then. CCP helps nobody with this. Some customers are **ed off .. thats all. So.. there is no reason to do this. Only to ** some people oh their knies.. not more, not less...
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:24:00 - [89] Originally by: Furb Killer Kerfira, there is one change, only the more experienced players know about that, the newer players will be easier targets And you really think CCP will not hand-hold the new players on this too? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:26:00 - [90] Originally by: Andra Zeit Originally by: Malcanis Just pay the 11% then. CCP helps nobody with this. Some customers are **ed off .. thats all. So.. there is no reason to do this. Only to some people oh their knies.. not more, not less... On their what? Take that ** out of your mouth before you speak.

Hyperforce99 Gallente Infinite Covenant Xenogenesis Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:27:00 - [91] Edited by: Hyperforce99 on 19/09/2009 21:28:27 Originally by: baltec1 CCP Eris Discordia deserves a beer from every player! Thats cruel man You'd kill her with Alcohol poisening. Imagine having to drink 300.000 beers... --------------------------------------------- Somewhere beyond happyness and sadness, I need to calculate what creates my own madness o/
Doomed Predator The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:29:00 - [92] Originally by: Andra Zeit Originally by: Malcanis Just pay the 11% then. CCP helps nobody with this. Some customers are **ed off .. thats all. So.. there is no reason to do this. Only to some people oh their knies.. not more, not less... Only lame ass carebears are **ed off. ''Oh no, my precious isk/per hour ratio has been dented by a few percent.'' Just give me your stuff and ragequit while you're still upset. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again
Andra Zeit	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:36:00 - [93] Originally by: Doomed Predator Only lame ass carebears are ****ed off. ''Oh no, my precious isk/per hour ratio has been dented by a few percent.'' Just give me your stuff and ragequit while you're still upset. Exact. Waste ISK for nothing.. without any sense. Thats why I'm upset.
AdmiralJohn Gallente The Unknown Bar and Pub	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:40:00 - [94] Originally by: Andra Zeit Originally by: Doomed Predator Only lame ass carebears are ****ed off. ''Oh no, my precious isk/per hour ratio has been dented by a few percent.'' Just give me your stuff and ragequit while you're still upset. Exact. Waste ISK for nothing.. without any sense. Thats why I'm upset. How about you join a real corp and have it count for something, in that case.
Gideon Kross Caldari PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:44:00 - [95] I don't think the tax will bother most, honestly. For those that are Hot about the idea of Wardeccing an NPC starter corp... There's an aspect that you haven't considered. Sure, you'd have the Target Rich Environment of your wet dreams... But what happens when all of those "n00bs" fleet up and cost you billions over the course of days? I don't think it'd be a hornet's nest I'd want to poke with a stick. ... Just say'n.
Doomed Predator The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:46:00 - [96] Originally by: Andra Zeit Originally by: Doomed Predator Only lame ass carebears are ****ed off. ''Oh no, my precious isk/per hour ratio has been dented by a few percent.'' Just give me your stuff and ragequit while you're still upset. Exact. Waste ISK for nothing.. without any sense. Thats why I'm upset. The change has been way overdo. Hope CCP will have the balls and not cave in to carebear whining. You guys have only mild annoyances which are ninja salvagers(who do it for the tears,not the isk) and soon(hopefully) a minor tax. Adapt or die and all that jazz. P.S.: Still want your stuff though The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again
5pinDizzy Amarr State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:47:00 - [97] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Haakelen We're in agreement! Make it a 25% tax, and patch wardec avoidance loopholes. Voila. Well.... The whole reason for this forum is to help CCP refine and perfect their game mechanics changes, isn't it? Make creating a corp cost 50 million isk innit.
Andra Zeit	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:47:00 - [98] Originally by: AdmiralJohn How about you join a real corp and have it count for something, in that case. I was in 3 corps. At the beginning.. they were mission running corps. After some weeks they joinded aliances to go to 0.0. And thats not I want.
Andra Zeit	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:52:00 - [99] Originally by: Doomed Predator Adapt or die and all that jazz. Adapt or leave EvE ;) To die is not possible. "Adapt or die" and "sandbox" is only bul**** in some peoples wet dreams.
Junko Togawa Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:58:00 - [100] Don't think of it as a 'Carebear Empire Tax'. Think of it as a 'Grief The Griefers Tax'. Go out and run missions and think of all the basement-dwelling fail-at-lifers who emorage every time they see another pimp CNR/Golem rolling out to print phat ISK into its owner's wallet. And smile.

Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:58:00 - [101] Originally by: Andra Zeit Originally by: Doomed Predator Adapt or die and all that jazz. Adapt or leave EvE ;) To die is not possible. "Adapt or die" and "sandbox" is only bul**** in some peoples wet dreams. If you unsubscribe from EVE, a knife gores out of your monitor into your face. There, now Adapt, Or Die.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2009.09.19 21:59:00 - [102] Originally by: Hyperforce99 Edited by: Hyperforce99 on 19/09/2009 21:28:27 Originally by: baltec1 CCP Eris Discordia deserves a beer from every player! Thats cruel man You'd kill her with Alcohol poisening. Imagine having to drink 300.000 beers... There was a time when I proposed the idea that the players invested 1dollar each (300k dollar) and bought a beer fountain at the CCP HQ in Icelandd... I still think the idea deserves some credit! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:00:00 - [103] Edited by: Shadowsword on 19/09/2009 22:01:36 Looks like I won't be doing much work done when Dominion come out. I'll be too busy reading the forums and laughing my butt off at the whines. Originally by: Andra Zeit Originally by: Doomed Predator Only lame ass carebears are ****ed off. ''Oh no, my precious isk/per hour ratio has been dented by a few percent.'' Just give me your stuff and ragequit while you're still upset. Exact. Waste ISK for nothing.. without any sense. Thats why I'm upset. Create your own corp. Set taxes at 0. Problem solved. ------------------------------------------
annoing Amarr Mortis Angelus Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:05:00 - [104] Its not so much the tax, but I have begun to believe that CCP Eris Discordia and ccp are fuking idiots. Go on ccp, tell me how this is a great big sandbox and we can play the game in any way we please .... as long as you are part of a player owned corp that is. Sure, the tax will hurt the alts who npc but big fuking deal about that. You shouldnt try to force the player base into something they may not want to do, and making them join an player corp is just that. Everyone wants something different from this game, everyone. Some want to mine, some want to pvp, some want to be industrialists etc ... so who are you to tell them how to play this game? You, the player, who thinks you should force everyone to play it your way should go and sucks a donkeys cok, its got fukall to do with you. Its their* dollar that pays for their game. You dont like how they spend it or the way they play it? Fine, fukoff and go play WoW or more likely Runescape like the little spolit **ey kids that you are. Get this straight, I dont object to the tax, I object to all you little tossers telling all the others how to play this game. Fuking idiots the lot of you. Originally by:** Zeba Its all the pron. Fappy people are happy people
Iva Soreass Tribal Core	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:08:00 - [105] Originally by: annoing Its not so much the tax, but I have begun to believe that CCP Eris Discordia and ccp are ***** idiots. Go on ccp, tell me how this is a great big sandbox and we can play the game in any way we please .... as long as you are part of a player owned corp that is. Sure, the tax will hurt the alts who npc but big **** deal about that. You shouldnt try to force the player base into something they may not want to do, and making them join an player corp is just that. Everyone wants something different from this game, everyone. Some want to mine, some want to pvp, some want to be industrialists etc ... so who are you to tell them how to play this game? You, the player, who thinks you should force everyone to play it your way should go and sucks a donkeys , its got ** all to do with you. Its their dollar that pays for their game. You dont like how they spend it or the way they play it? Fine, ***** and go play WoW or more likely Runescape like the little spolit ey kids that you are. Get this straight, I dont object to the tax, I object to all you little tossers telling all the others how to play this game. ***** idiots the lot of you. Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist Quoteing for the mofo truth. Hit it right on teh head there annoing here here. Please resize sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 - Mitnal
Rulkez Tribal Core	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:17:00 - [106] Originally by: annoing Its not so much the tax, but I have begun to believe that CCP Eris Discordia and ccp are ***** idiots. Go on ccp, tell me how this is a great big sandbox and we can play the game in any way we please .... as long as you are part of a player owned corp that is. Sure, the tax will hurt the alts who npc but big **** deal about that. You shouldnt try to force the player base into something they may not want to do, and making them join an player corp is just that. Everyone wants something different from this game, everyone. Some want to mine, some want to pvp, some want to be industrialists etc ... so who are you to tell them how to play this game? You, the player, who thinks you should force everyone to play it your way should go and sucks a donkeys , its got ** all to do with you. Its their dollar that pays for their game. You dont like how they spend it or the way they play it? Fine, ***** and go play WoW or more likely Runescape like the little spolit ey kids that you are. Get this straight, I dont object to the tax, I object to all you little tossers telling all the others how to play this game. ***** idiots the lot of you. Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist Mindless emoragerant aside, how is taxing bounties and mission rewards forcing NPC corp members to do anything
annoing Amarr Mortis Angelus Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:19:00 - [107] Edited by: annoing on 19/09/2009 22:20:02 Actually ive changed my mind. I DO object to the tax for all the reasons I gave above. CCP are tossers for trying to 'nudge' npc'ers into a corp. Hey heres a thought... maybe they dont want to join a player owned corp? Maybe they dont want to train the skills nescessary to make a corp (yeah i know, anyone can make a corp but if you want you npc friends to join you've got to get the skills then). Maybe they want to do the very thing that you advertised.... play in this great big sandbox in any way they please. Again,as for them making themselves a little one man corp .. maybe they like the chat in npc corp chat? maybe thats where their friends are? Maybe their friends might like to be ratters or miners while they might be industrialists or marketeers? Yeah I know, its only 11% ... but that can be alot when you're trying to make isk to get that new ship or new module when you first start. If you mine and have sell the minerals, 11% will make a huge dent in your time/profit margins. All I see this doing is making the casual Eve gamer stop paying their subs, as they can no longer be bothered to make the grind to buy the shiney epeen stuff which they seem to think the rest of us have. CCP? this idea, the worst one you've had in quite a while. Originally by: Zeba Its all the pron. Fappy people are happy people
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:19:00 - [108] Originally by: annoing Its not so much the tax, but I have begun to believe that CCP Eris Discordia and ccp are ***** idiots. Go on ccp, tell me how this is a great big sandbox and we can play the game in any way we please .... as long as you are part of a player owned corp that is. Sure, the tax will hurt the alts who npc but big **** deal about that. You shouldnt try to force the player base into something they may not want to do, and making them join an player corp is just that. Everyone wants something different from this game, everyone. Some want to mine, some want to pvp, some want to be industrialists etc ... so who are you to tell them how to play this game? You, the player, who thinks you should force everyone to play it your way should go and sucks a donkeys , its got ** all to do with you. Its their dollar that pays for their game. You dont like how they spend it or the way they play it? Fine, ***** and go play WoW or more likely Runescape like the little spolit ey kids that you are. Get this straight, I dont object to the tax, I object to all you little tossers telling all the others how to play this game. ***** idiots the lot of you. Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist The only thing right with this post is the name... And that's not even spelt right... ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
OwlManAtt Gallente Yasashii Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:19:00 - [109] Quote: Get this straight, I dont object to the tax, I object to all you little tossers telling all the others how to play this game. ******* idiots the lot of you. So an 11% tax on bounties / mission rewards is somehow forcing you to join a player corp? Are you always this stupid, or have you been enjoying the tournament with some fine drink? --- Owl
wickedpheonix Guy Fawkes Trust Fund	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:19:00 - [110] Originally by: annoing Its not so much the tax, but I have begun to believe that CCP Eris Discordia and ccp are ***** idiots. Go on ccp, tell me how this is a great big sandbox and we can play the game in any way we please .... as long as you are part of a player owned corp that is. Sure, the tax will hurt the alts who npc but big **** deal about that. You shouldnt try to force the player base into something they may not want to do, and making them join an player corp is just that. Everyone wants something different from this game, everyone. Some want to mine, some want to pvp, some want to be industrialists etc ... so who are you to tell them how to play this game? You, the player, who thinks you should force everyone to play it your way should go and sucks a donkeys , its got ** all to do with you. Its their dollar that pays for their game. You dont like how they spend it or the way they play it? Fine, ***** and go play WoW or more likely Runescape like the little spolit ey kids that you are. Get this straight, I dont object to the tax, I object to all you little tossers telling all the others how to play this game. ***** idiots the lot of you. Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist carebear tears are DELICIOUS smacks lips

Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:20:00 - [111] Most of of the people I know use npccorped alts to pay for there PvP mains PvP. all this works out to is a 11% increase in the amount of griding we have to do to pay for our pvp. but yet CCP wants more pvp? meh. The good news is that maybee an 11% tax will help put out of buisness the idiots who insist on producing at a loss. my freinds keep wondering why I always say EvE is the game you play despite the mindbogling stupidity of the developers. usualy however it only takes a few weeks before they realise that me refering to them as being mind bogleing stupid is giving them a compliment they honestly dont deserve. Examples? Boosters, the T2 lotto, Not fireing T20 because it would hurt his feelings after he hands out T2 BPOs to his corp mates, Actualy PROMOTING t20 shortly thereafter the original idea about the costs of T3 ships(honestly I am beguining to suspect that there is noone on the developement team who has actualy done any production as a full time effort) the Entire pre dominion Low sec Sov mechanic. (which has lead to the somewhat sarcastic coment, the new improved Sov Mechanic, brought to you by the developers of the Current broken ass Sov mechanic and the even more broken ass FW) Alechemy The fact that they were completly blindsided (despite several bug reports)by the POS exploit in the first place. The fact that they were aparently surpised by the level of hostility directed to the "announcment" of Dust 514 for console by part of the playerbase(a chunk of the playerbase basicaly spend there entire time trashtalking people who play "first person" mmos and WoW and they were suprised by the hostility to console AHEM players. (hoestly I personly thought that overall it was fairly civil, I think they were not expecting the harsh reaction to what seems to be a "console only" addon **. . . . . . . .** Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense.
Ambasador Kosh	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:22:00 - [112] An excellent idea, and long overdue.
bnogo Caldari Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:23:00 - [113] actually, i believe the whole MMO thing does define it. as in lots of people working together for their own goals. this is a sandbox true, but it still is a box. if ccp decides to alter the construct of the box and the minimalist rules they have, that is their priority. if they want player's in player corps, they can do as they want to nudge them out into it. true npc corps have interaction, but nothing like a player corp. some of the best people i know and still talk to are from the smallest corps i have been in. i trust them, and hope they feel the same. those bonds generally are not created through npc corps :( not saying it can't happen, but i am sure it is rare indeed. basically, getting into a small player corp, fighting off decs(even when you lose), and doing random **** together is an experience of eve that is amazing and so much better than anything else. why avoid the best part of eve? hang out and do what you like to, be it mine, mission, rat, 0.0, pirate whatever. there is a corp out there for you that is fun.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:38:00 - [114] Edited by: Tippia on 19/09/2009 22:40:03 Originally by: annoing Go on ccp, tell me how this is a great big sandbox and we can play the game in any way we please .... as long as you are part of a player owned corp that is. How does this change in any way change how you can play the game? Answer: not a single bit. Quote: You shouldnt try to force the player base into something they may not want to do, and making them join an player corp is just that. How does this in any way force players to join player corps? Answer: it doesn't. Quote: CCP are tossers for trying to 'nudge' npc'ers into a corp. Hey heres a thought... maybe they dont want to join a player owned corp? Good news: they don't have to. Quote: Yeah I know, its only 11% ... but that can be alot when you're trying to make isk to get that new ship or new module when you first start. If you mine and have sell the minerals, 11% will make a huge dent in your time/profit margins. You don't understand what corp taxes do, do you? Maybe you should look it up before you start spouting profanities and ranting about something you have no clue about. It only makes you seem uninformed, and it severely weakens your argument. NPC corp taxes will affect two things: mission rewards and bounties, and, even then, only when they exceed 100k ISK. That's it. It will make f-all difference to new players reaching for that new ship and new set of modules because the vast majority of their earnings come from other sources and it will be quite a while before their NPC ISK payouts exceed 100k. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:39:00 - [115] Originally by: Rulkez Mindless emoragerant aside, how is taxing bounties and mission rewards forcing NPC corp members to do anything It's not. That's the beauty of it. Nobody is being FORCED to do anything. They can stay right where they are if they like. Nobody is MAKING anybody do anything. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
annoing Amarr Mortis Angelus Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:43:00 - [116] Originally by: Bibbleibble The only thing right with this post is the name... And that's not even spelt right... Ahhh its always nice to come a true moron. Its not supposed to sound as 'annoying' but 'anno ing'. Those that have known me in this game since its beginning refer to me as anno .. not as annoing. You make me realise that 'care in the community' has failed. Originally by: wickedpheonix carebear tears are DELICIOUS smacks lips Not only as we find one true moron than another turns up just after. If you think im a carebear than you obviously dont 'think' at all. I object to CCP 'nudge'ing npc'ers into something they dont want to do. Not the tax, the nudging. Dont sell the game as a sandbox and then remove the sand. Originally by: bnogo basically, getting into a small player corp, fighting off decs(even when you lose), and doing random ** together is an experience of eve that is amazing and so much better than anything else. why avoid the best part of eve? hang out and do what you like to, be it mine, mission, rat, 0.0, pirate whatever. there is a corp out there for you that is fun. All you have said there is exactly WHY the npc'ers dont want to join a corp. They dont want to either a) fight or b) maybe they dont understand fight mechanics have have no desire how to find out. All you have said supports what I said earlier .. who are you to try to tell them how to play this game? Who are you to tell them they MUST join a corp to make friends with people they dont want to make friends with, to do things they dont want to do when you tell them when to do it? Who made you God? Hers another original thought ... why should they join a corp of complete strangers JUST so they can continue to play a part of the game they like ... ie: mining. As for corp taxs (average 10%), well a 1% difference in tax rates is no real difference is it? Stop trying to tell players how to play. Its their dollar, their game. You will say, good old ccp, its their game, they can change the rules of the sandbox anytime they please. Ok, let that be the case .. but claiming to enjoy the carebear tears will just have the same flavour when you tossers lose ninja salvaging, no wardecs with the other corps approval (so if they decline, you dont a war, how nice is that), the up and coming sovereign changes, pos changes etc etc. Leave the noobs alone. You're just jealous that they DO make the isk that you only dream about as you so l33tly pvp in lowsec or 0.0. Originally by:** Zeba Its all the pron. Fappy people are happy people
Borun Tal Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:44:00 - [117] Next: players start jumping around between corps to avoid silly taxes Next: group of players get together, form shell corps at 0%, and start moving toons around regularly to avoid whatever the crap of the day is. 11% tax for missioners in NPC corps? Fail. And stupid (not to mention greedy).
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:46:00 - [118] Originally by: annoing Leave the noobs alone. Noobs will not be affected by this change. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
AdmiralJohn Gallente The Unknown Bar and Pub	Posted - 2009.09.19 22:48:00 - [119] Well, annoing, despite what other people call you, your new nickname will be "Annoying". And in case you didn't notice, it's an 11% tax, not an eviction notice. As a sandbox there's supposed to be choices and a tradeoff for everything, however NPC corps have very few tradeoffs. This just makes it balanced.
Wescombe	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:07:00 - [120] I dont know if anyone has made any comments like mine, i've read most of the posts but will say it anyway. Whilst I'm not pleased about the possible change and 11% isnt a big difference between most normal corps there is something that bothers me. At the moment I really enjoy playing the game when I have the time and this is the problem, time! I'm currently working away a lot and I dont have time to really do anything other than mission running. I'm not in a player corp and I personally dont believe its fair to be in a player corp (especially a new one) when I will hardly be around. How would most of you feel about someone joining and not playing often? At the moment if I have a free weekend I could maybe earn a good 100-250mil isk, so yes when im not playing a lot I would feel annoyed by losing 11-27mil for a npc corp where the funds were not actually be used for something. My point is that its not that I dont want to join a player corp but other real life issues force me not to, Im already paying for a game I dont play much, why should I get taxed when I do play it.

DigitalCommunist November Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:14:00 - [121] Tbh, after considering this a bit, I'd rather see the tax ramp up: 0% first 30 days 15% after 30 days 30% after 60 days Its not so much protection against newbs, because everybody has it pretty damn easy when it comes to making money. 11% off a crapton makes it trivial, because there is enough left to keep advancing easily. Its more so that people can recieve evemails when the tax changes, to become aware of the penalty. A tax from the get-go doesn't mean much because many people won't even know its there, and will become accustomed to the amount of money they're pulling to feel like they're losing anything. A very visible drop in profits, and a written reminder works better as a deterrent against npc squatting and avoids the stigma of taxing newbs. And on a slightly related note, but since EVE has regional and constellation gates now, I'd like to see toll fees based on tonnage and standings. CCP discussed this ages ago, and I think its a good way to limit npc capital logistics and add some variety to trade. The threshold might be such that it only applies to Orcas and Freighters, and perhaps Battleship pilots moving around in places where the faction does not like them (FW pilots in enemy high sec). The fees should be dynamic based on gate traffic (jumps per day), so that traders going the long way can save a bit of money and perhaps obtain higher margins than someone dumping a load of T2 from Jita to Amarr directly. In addition, region-region links of the same faction should be cheaper than faction borders. Amarr-Caldari should also be cheaper than going from Caldari-Gallente, for RP reasons. Getting some corp standings would lower the toll fees, such that perhaps you pay nothing on Orca travel within region (constellation gates). And afk-travel wouldn't be affected, since a gate can simply deny jump if you lack the money. Lastly, NPC corps would have a much higher toll fee than player corps to discourage their use by what are obviously non-newb usage scenarios. Once you have the mechanic in place and it works great in this situation, you can find neat expansion opportunities in FW system ping-pong.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:16:00 - [122] Originally by: Steve Thomas Most of of the people I know use npccorped alts to pay for there PvP mains PvP. all this works out to is a 11% increase in the amount of griding we have to do to pay for our pvp. but yet CCP wants more pvp? It's almost as if they're following through with their stated objective to get more people in to 0.0 by making it more profitable for 0.0 players to make their ISK in... 0.0 - rather than with untouchable NPC mission alts. Crazy, I know. See the bitter tears of the Minor Threat dude above as an explicit example.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:27:00 - [123] Originally by: Wescombe I dont know if anyone has made any comments like mine, i've read most of the posts but will say it anyway. Whilst I'm not pleased about the possible change and 11% isnt a big difference between most normal corps there is something that bothers me. At the moment I really enjoy playing the game when I have the time and this is the problem, time! I'm currently working away a lot and I dont have time to really do anything other than mission running. I'm not in a player corp and I personally dont believe its fair to be in a player corp (especially a new one) when I will hardly be around. How would most of you feel about someone joining and not playing often? At the moment if I have a free weekend I could maybe earn a good 100-250mil isk, so yes when im not playing a lot I would feel annoyed by losing 11-27mil for a npc corp where the funds were not actually be used for something. My point is that its not that I dont want to join a player corp but other real life issues force me not to, Im already paying for a game I dont play much, why should I get taxed when I do play it. To pay for all that protection you're getting. Protection costs money. Ask any made guy....
Lotus Sutra	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:29:00 - [124] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 19/09/2009 23:34:23 A corp tax of 11% will barely effect my income. If it does start to have an effect I will simply create several alts, train corp management and drop myself into one of them. Tax 0%. If the corp gets war decced, I'll drop corp, switch to another alts corp and keep on doing what I do. I can easily make 12 player corps (18 if I decide to reactivate 2 other accounts) with 0% tax and cycle through them as needed to avoid having to deal with people who would find it fun to attack a one or two man corp for lawls. The corps would continue to exist, so technically I wouldn't be closing a corp to avoid a war dec, because the corp would still be war decced, but there would be nobody there for the attacker to fight except an offline character that makes them lose isk while I continue doing what I did before. Yeah CCP, this change will not have any effect at all for those of us with no desire to PvP. It will just cost the PvP bears more isk on failed war deccs of useless front corps. Very well thought out plan CCP.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:33:00 - [125] Next up: CCP to fix the wardec system...
Aurorae Andromedae	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:38:00 - [126] Edited by: Aurorae Andromedae on 19/09/2009 23:38:35 Hahaha! Now the PVP pilots, 0.0 and pirates are getting nerf bat from CCP... Stop lying to yourselfs, you all have mission alts and now you're getting 11% off your farming income. I say hahaha. EDIT: It's like shooting yourself into head...
Lotus Sutra	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:43:00 - [127] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 19/09/2009 23:45:59 Originally by: Malcanis Next up: CCP to fix the wardec system... They would have to tie corps to player accounts then. I have 4 active and 2 inactive accounts. If one character on one account got war decced they would need to tie all the accounts together so that another character tied to those accounts couldn't leave a corp that was war decced. They would then need to be able to PROVE that these accounts were all played by me, and not simply paid for by me for someone else to play which for one account I have is the actual case. There is no way they will be able to prevent corp hopping by characters short of removing a players ability to leave a corp that is at war. If they do that, then they should also make it so corps can't get new members when they are at war either. So if your corp is at war, you can't leave it. Attacker and attackee both would be stuck in their corps until the war is over. CCP won't be able to force people to do pew pew like they seem to think they will be able to, all they will be able to do is force griefewrs to lose more money, and waste more time.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:47:00 - [128] Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 23:48:35 Originally by: Malcanis It's almost as if they're following through with their stated objective to get more people in to 0.0 by making it more profitable for 0.0 players to make their ISK in... 0.0 - rather than with untouchable NPC mission alts. Except that the mission alts will STILL be untouchable (and not taxed), due to the 24-hour wardec rule and insta-disband of 1-man corp.... Ok, they'll have to pay ~1.6m ISK per new corp, but that'll not happen all that often after people get tired of paying 2m ISK to wardec a 1-man corp that'll just be disbanded.... Originally by: Malcanis (#125) Next up: CCP to fix the wardec system... ...doesn't seem like it..... Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia (#70) - We have no plans at the moment to change wardecs Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Claudia Voltaire	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:49:00 - [129] Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae Edited by: Aurorae Andromedae on 19/09/2009 23:38:35 Hahaha! Now the PVP pilots, 0.0 and pirates are getting nerf bat from CCP... Stop lying to yourselfs, you all have mission alts and now you're getting 11% off your farming income. I say hahaha. EDIT: It's like shooting yourself into head... gota be drunk to voice an opinion on an eve-o subject in game, but what you know, there's that: Trolls 1-0, as above 0-1, ccp 0-0 -1 more gtc's +2
Aurorae Andromedae	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:52:00 - [130] Originally by: Claudia Voltaire Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae Edited by: Aurorae Andromedae on 19/09/2009 23:38:35 Hahaha! Now the PVP pilots, 0.0 and pirates are getting nerf bat from CCP... Stop lying to yourselfs, you all have mission alts and now you're getting 11% off your farming income. I say hahaha. EDIT: It's like shooting yourself into head... gota be drunk to voice an opinion on an eve-o subject in game, but what you know, there's that: Trolls 1-0, as above 0-1, ccp 0-0 -1 more gtc's +2 That's ain't troll, it's the truth. I am part of 0.0 alliance, I have mission alt, like nearly all of my corp mates do. What should I pick... Stable 40 M ISK income without interruptions of anykind or ratting in 0.0 with 60 mil per hour with cloaker in the system.... Damn hard to pick...

Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:00:00 - [131] Originally by: DigitalCommunist A very visible drop in profits, and a written reminder works better as a deterrent against npc squatting and avoids the stigma of taxing newbs. You folks need to remember that there's more ways to PvP than to go "pew-pew lazors!!!" NPC corps let us avoid the lame wanna-be pirates while we do so. Want to encourage player corps? Then discourage the wardecs from folks who can't cut it in lowsec/0.0 and need neutral RR to take down an industrial.
Ivanna Nuke Daralux	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:01:00 - [132] Wades in tears You should also permit NPC corp members to attack other NPC corp members
Claudia Voltaire	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:05:00 - [133] Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae it's the truth. Ohh for the grace of satire, cost you more though. I don't play you're game, but it's not to know, ccp know they have you as crack addicts, you'll pay, you'll buy more gtc's to fill their boots to compensate. Ofc any opinion you might have, or any of the like will be shot down in flames by the 1-0 guys... the forum t's:)
Aurorae Andromedae	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:10:00 - [134] Originally by: Claudia Voltaire Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae it's the truth. Ohh for the grace of satire, cost you more though. I don't play you're game, but it's not to know, ccp know they have you as crack addicts, you'll pay, you'll buy more gtc's to fill their boots to compensate. Ofc any opinion you might have, or any of the like will be shot down in flames by the 1-0 guys... the forum t's:) Says a forum alt who has been in NPC corporation for 4 years 5 months AND 27 days....
Jernau Riggs	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:13:00 - [135] While i agree that npc corps should be taxed, CCP really have no idea how these things work in real life. You need to follow what real life governments do, Introduce the tax as a silly low level so no one would be mad enough to argue with say 2%, and then when people get used to paying it knock it up to 5% then 7% etc etc
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:17:00 - [136] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Steve Thomas Most of of the people I know use npccorped alts to pay for there PvP mains PvP. all this works out to is a 11% increase in the amount of griding we have to do to pay for our pvp. but yet CCP wants more pvp? It's almost as if they're following through with their stated objective to get more people in to 0.0 by making it more profitable for 0.0 players to make their ISK in... 0.0 - rather than with untouchable NPC mission alts. This will only hold true if the proposed infrastucture improvement mechanics for dominion are able to let the average 0.0 joe make a buck off the territory and not let the 0.1% of the guys with the corp rights to everything walk away with 99.9999999% of the alliances profits like it currently is. All I see this doing is making pretty much all the mission running alts for 0.0 guys make a one man corp. What will this do? It will be an endless sea of a zillion horribly named nub corps that whilst able to be wardecced will just dissapear for the week of hostilities until the aggressor gets fed up. Plus the vast omg huge increase in one man corps will make it effectively impossible to have any effect from wardecs as it would be like trying to kill an ant colony one tiny ant at a time with a week between killings but full cost for every ant killed. Before this you could just suicide an offending induvidual for far less than the cost of a soon to be fruitless wardec. The problem of 'invulnerable' empire mission runners just got worse tbh if you think it through. Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal
Claudia Voltaire	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:17:00 - [137] Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae Originally by: Claudia Voltaire Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae it's the truth. Ohh for the grace of satire, cost you more though. I don't play you're game, but it's not to know, ccp know they have you as crack addicts, you'll pay, you'll buy more gtc's to fill their boots to compensate. Ofc any opinion you might have, or any of the like will be shot down in flames by the 1-0 guys... the forum t's:) Says a forum alt who has been in NPC corporation for 4 years 5 months AND 27 days.... might be pie'ied there chap, but as right as you were i couldn't resist, the trolls are bigging nobody, most saying nothing are counting the cost. Jumped in only because if there's not a dry eye in the house tonight, you called it:o
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:24:00 - [138] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 20/09/2009 00:23:53 This is a stupid change. Because this will just contentate some emo-morons who want force everyone to play in a certain way. So to avoid war AND tax, we just have to create more 1-Man Corps, as I doubt that there is many corporations who will try to wardec most of them actually in the game. _______ Local is fine, period. CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ?
Aurorae Andromedae	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:26:00 - [139] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Steve Thomas Most of of the people I know use npccorped alts to pay for there PvP mains PvP. all this works out to is a 11% increase in the amount of griding we have to do to pay for our pvp. but yet CCP wants more pvp? It's almost as if they're following through with their stated objective to get more people in to 0.0 by making it more profitable for 0.0 players to make their ISK in... 0.0 - rather than with untouchable NPC mission alts. This will only hold true if the proposed infrastucture improvement mechanics for dominion are able to let the average 0.0 joe make a buck off the territory and not let the 0.1% of the guys with the corp rights to everything walk away with 99.9999999% of the alliances profits like it currently is. All I see this doing is making pretty much all the mission running alts for 0.0 guys make a one man corp. What will this do? It will be an endless sea of a zillion horribly named nub corps that whilst able to be wardecced will just dissapear for the week of hostilities until the aggressor gets fed up. Plus the vast omg huge increase in one man corps will make it effectively impossible to have any effect from wardecs as it would be like trying to kill an ant colony one tiny ant at a time with a week between killings but full cost for every ant killed. Before this you could just suicide an offending induvidual for far less than the cost of a soon to be fruitless wardec. The problem of 'invulnerable' empire mission runners just got worse tbh if you think it through. This................
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:30:00 - [140] Edited by: Zeba on 20/09/2009 00:36:09 Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis What about when you rat or mission in places that have no concord protection? Will you still have to pay the tax? Also what about fw players in the npc fw corps? They are doing exactly what a normal player run fw corp does with the attendant risks. Will there be a tax for them too? Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal

Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:33:00 - [141] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 19/09/2009 23:45:59 Originally by: Malcanis Next up: CCP to fix the wardec system... They would have to tie corps to player accounts then. I have 4 active and 2 inactive accounts. If one character on one account got war decced they would need to tie all the accounts together so that another character tied to those accounts couldn't leave a corp that was war decced. They would then need to be able to PROVE that these accounts were all played by me, and not simply paid for by me for someone else to play which for one account I have is the actual case. There is no way they will be able to prevent corp hopping by characters short of removing a players ability to leave a corp that is at war. If they do that, then they should also make it so corps can't get new members when they are at war either. So if your corp is at war, you can't leave it. Attacker and attackee both would be stuck in their corps until the war is over. CCP won't be able to force people to do pew pew like they seem to think they will be able to, all they will be able to do is force griefewrs to lose more money, and waste more time. 1 simple way: a wardec follows a player that leaves a corp just like it follows a corp that leaves an alliance.
Lotus Sutra	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:38:00 - [142] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 19/09/2009 23:45:59 Originally by: Malcanis Next up: CCP to fix the wardec system... They would have to tie corps to player accounts then. I have 4 active and 2 inactive accounts. If one character on one account got war decced they would need to tie all the accounts together so that another character tied to those accounts couldn't leave a corp that was war decced. They would then need to be able to PROVE that these accounts were all played by me, and not simply paid for by me for someone else to play which for one account I have is the actual case. There is no way they will be able to prevent corp hopping by characters short of removing a players ability to leave a corp that is at war. If they do that, then they should also make it so corps can't get new members when they are at war either. So if your corp is at war, you can't leave it. Attacker and attackee both would be stuck in their corps until the war is over. CCP won't be able to force people to do pew pew like they seem to think they will be able to, all they will be able to do is force griefewrs to lose more money, and waste more time. 1 simple way: a wardec follows a player that leaves a corp just like it follows a corp that leaves an alliance. That would be real dumb actually. I make a two man corp and smack talk some tard griefer corp into war deccing me. I then leave the corp (The CEO stays in it) and join a 100 man corp. The war dec follows me to the new corp where suddenly they are at war with a tard griefer corp. bright thinking. You just enabled free war decs.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:39:00 - [143] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Steve Thomas Most of of the people I know use npccorped alts to pay for there PvP mains PvP. all this works out to is a 11% increase in the amount of griding we have to do to pay for our pvp. but yet CCP wants more pvp? It's almost as if they're following through with their stated objective to get more people in to 0.0 by making it more profitable for 0.0 players to make their ISK in... 0.0 - rather than with untouchable NPC mission alts. This will only hold true if the proposed infrastucture improvement mechanics for dominion are able to let the average 0.0 joe make a buck off the territory and not let the 0.1% of the guys with the corp rights to everything walk away with 99.9999999% of the alliances profits like it currently is. All I see this doing is making pretty much all the mission running alts for 0.0 guys make a one man corp. What will this do? It will be an endless sea of a zillion horribly named nub corps that whilst able to be wardecced will just dissapear for the week of hostilities until the aggressor gets fed up. Plus the vast omg huge increase in one man corps will make it effectively impossible to have any effect from wardecs as it would be like trying to kill an ant colony one tiny ant at a time with a week between killings but full cost for every ant killed. Before this you could just suicide an offending induvidual for far less than the cost of a soon to be fruitless wardec. The problem of 'invulnerable' empire mission runners just got worse tbh if you think it through. In a way you're right, of course, but you're missing the key difference between "encourage" and "force". Still, if you want to argue for a flat 11% tax on all empire transactions, go for it. At least that would mimic RL tax structures.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:43:00 - [144] "I want to play how I want. How dare you take my NPC corp away from me. My e-wallet backbone. I don't want to be the target of grief war-decs" Pay the tax then. "What? Why should I have to pay for the advantage I have?" I can see why sympathy is a little thin on the ground. The sandbox arguement is absolutely the worst btw, because the people in NPC corps are gaining an advantage without effort, and then complaining it may now come with a cost. A real sandbox enviroment wouldn't give you the safety net of an NPC corp at all. アニメ漫画です
Lotus Sutra	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:44:00 - [145] Originally by: Malcanis In a way you're right, of course, but you're missing the key difference between "encourage" and "force". Still, if you want to argue for a flat 11% tax on all empire transactions, go for it. At least that would mimic RL tax structures. Oh I personally think the tax is fine, but I also think it isn't going to have the effect ccp thinks it will, and gave a scenario where I could make it work to my advantage and cost griefers isk at virtually no cost to myself. The mechanics behind declaring war on a corp are so flawed that a total re-write would be required to fix them and I don't think CCP has the time or desire to do that. fake edit I hate the 5 minute posting delay while at the same time love it. But right now I hate it damnit!
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:44:00 - [146] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Originally by: Malcanis 1 simple way: a wardec follows a player that leaves a corp just like it follows a corp that leaves an alliance. That would be real dumb actually. I make a two man corp and smack talk some tard griefer corp into war deccing me. I then leave the corp (The CEO stays in it) and join a 100 man corp. The war dec follows me to the new corp where suddenly they are at war with a tard griefer corp. bright thinking. You just enabled free war decs. I guess I missed the step where the 100-man corp is forced to accept your smack-talking ass into their organisation. Wardecs are already a matter of public record, but since I know that your average corp CEO has enough to worry about already, I suggest that a simple pop-up message along the lines of "Lotus Sutra is currently at war with GRIEFCROP. If you accept her in to your corporation you will be at war with GRIEFCORP for 22 hours" would obviate that problem.
Thaylon Sen Critical-Mass	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:49:00 - [147] On one hand I embrace this idea, the real eve is in player corps. On the other hand... seems to me everyone forgets it's a game, do we really need to be 'taxing' casual gamers?
Rellik B00n Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:50:00 - [148] Originally by: Andra Zeit ..., You have to go to Domain" lol! OMG NOT DOMAIN! /holds face + LDS @ Bclnc
Lotus Sutra	Posted - 2009.09.20 00:50:00 - [149] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 20/09/2009 00:53:12 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Lotus Sutra Originally by: Malcanis 1 simple way: a wardec follows a player that leaves a corp just like it follows a corp that leaves an alliance. That would be real dumb actually. I make a two man corp and smack talk some tard griefer corp into war deccing me. I then leave the corp (The CEO stays in it) and join a 100 man corp. The war dec follows me to the new corp where suddenly they are at war with a tard griefer corp. bright thinking. You just enabled free war decs. I guess I missed the step where the 100-man corp is forced to accept your smack-talking ass into their organisation. Wardecs are already a matter of public record, but since I know that your average corp CEO has enough to worry about already, I suggest that a simple pop-up message along the lines of "Lotus Sutra is currently at war with GRIEFCROP. If you accept her in to your corporation you will be at war with GRIEFCORP for 22 hours" would obviate that problem. Exactly my point. I can see corps using that type of mechanic to let them have free pew pew rights in high sec. That type of mechanic would quickly get abused by alliances like goonswarm. If I can see how to use it to a griefer corps disadvantage, i'm sure they would see how to use it to their advantage very quickly. I think a better mechanic would be to force players that are in a corp that is at war, to remain in that corp for a minimum of 24 hours AFTER the war has begun before they can leave. So to leave a corp that has had a war declared on them, 48 hours from the time the war was declared will have to pass before they can leave. or to make the incentive to have a real corp rather than a shell corp, make it so that three or four days have to pass before they can leave, or a full week, the duration of one cycle of a war dec. The only way to get around that would be to start the exit process before the war was declared. I think an 11% tax won't have any real effect anyway except a few people will cry about it and then forget about it and keep on doing what they have done from the beginning anyway.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.09.20 01:16:00 - [150] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 20/09/2009 01:16:53 Originally by: Wescombe (..) so yes when im not playing a lot I would feel annoyed by losing 11-27mil for a npc corp where the funds were not actually be used for something. Well, it is being used for something - paying Concord, so that other players can't wardec you. I'd say that's fair. It should have been like this right from the start. It would be even better if all the NPC corps had some more advantages and disadvantages and special features, along with varying taxes. That would breathe a bit more life into them. Personally I think the navy NPC corps should have the highest taxe rates ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"

Burning Horizon The Lighthouse Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.20 01:30:00 - [151] I honestly agree with both sides. I love the new tax for NPC corps, but making people join a player corp, which in a mission runner's case would probably be a 1 person corp. But for me it doesn't matter it just makes more juicy war decable targets
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.20 01:32:00 - [152] Edited by: Michwich on 20/09/2009 01:33:33 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Haakelen Yeah, I can see what you mean. How dare CCP infringe on this paragon of human interaction. While there is a bit of that, it's relatively minor. The noob corps actually DO have a goodly amount of social interaction..... Yes good point, corp chat is full with almost 1000 people and no spam adds, I like my NPC corp. But makes you wonder, is this tax hike just an isk grab by CCP and nothing else, you cant "encourage" people to leave , theres no almost pregnant in this case, either CCP wants us in NPC corps or they dont. This wont make anyone want to leave, no me at leaste so whats it for? More isk for them so sell? I dunno.
Lotus Sutra	Posted - 2009.09.20 01:50:00 - [153] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 20/09/2009 01:50:18 Originally by: Burning Horizon I honestly agree with both sides. I love the new tax for NPC corps, but making people join a player corp, which in a mission runner's case would probably be a 1 person corp. But for me it doesn't matter it just makes more juicy war decable targets No it just means the smart mission runner will create multiple 1 man alt corps to hop around in, costing you isk to declare war on them, and gaining you nothing, not even a target.
Brolly Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.20 01:58:00 - [154] funny, seems like the only peeps getting riled up are the PVP'ers. Looking forward to the PVP tears when nothing changes, but not to the constant "Put tax up to a greater %" Most peeps will just corp jump to avoid PVP and the business minded will create 'refuge' corps for easy isk. Your glory grief days are over before they have begun. Looking forward to Dominion
Lotus Sutra	Posted - 2009.09.20 01:58:00 - [155] Here is an example for the ones who are having trouble understanding this concept. I am a mission runner. I have 4 active accounts and 2 inactive accounts. I create characters on all my accounts and fill up all the slots. Train my alt characters with corp management. Create a corp with the alt characters. Jump from the npc corp into my alt characters player corp where the tax is 0%. You war dec my corp. I have no roles so I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec them I leave it and join another one of my alt corp. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. you war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. I can do this upto 18 times with my current accounts. If I run out of alt corps that don't have a war against them I leave and create one with this character or stay in an NPC corp for a day or two till you get tired of waging war on a corp of 1 that gives you no targets and costs you isk and me nothing but a few minutes of my time to make the corp, train the character for a few minutes, spend a few thousand isk or so I can make up in an hour of mission running. The net result is you lose isk, I lose nothing but a few minutes of time.
Brolly Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.20 02:12:00 - [156] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 20/09/2009 02:09:56 I am a mission runner. I have 4 active accounts and 2 inactive accounts. I activate my two inactive accounts. I create characters on all my accounts and fill up all the slots. Train my alt characters with corp management. Create a corp with the alt characters. Jump from the npc corp into my alt characters player corp where the tax is 0%. You war dec my corp. I have no roles so I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec them I leave it and join another one of my alt corp. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. I can do this upto 18 times with my current accounts. If I run out of alt corps that don't have a war against them I leave and create one with this character or stay in an NPC corp for a day or two till you get tired of waging war on a corp of 1 that gives you no targets and costs you isk and me nothing but a few minutes of my time to make the corp, train the character for a few minutes, spend a few thousand isk or so that I can make back in an hour of mission running. The net result is you lose millions of isk, I lose nothing but a few minutes of time. I win. lol, passive aggressive PVP, even the 'carebears' are doing it
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.20 02:16:00 - [157] Wait, now were paying %1 extra for our AI brained Concord? crys a river
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.09.20 02:27:00 - [158] To add to the posts above about what mission runners will do when they get wardeced I will answer this sentence. Originally by: Burning Horizon But for me it doesn't matter it just makes more juicy war decable targets Indeed it will and make no mistake that after a few seconds thought the vast majority will gladly make a solo corp to mission in. Why? Because now all the sheep will have turned from bright white against the green fields and trees to camo colored with ghillie suits so how exactly will you find them to dec them? Info every single character in the local list to see who is an easy to kill one man corp and who is not? Or even better who is the one man corp but not the one man bait corp who adds 30 members all with names starting with letters between the middle and end of the alphabet overnight and blasts your 3 ship 'camp' to hell and back after baiting you into aggroing with a station camping domi. So before you could just set all the npc corp to -10 and watch the red minus signs blaze in local like stars in a clear desert night sky and then go scan out a nice officer fit bs to gank. Not anymoar. It's gonna take :effort: now. Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal
Lotus Sutra	Posted - 2009.09.20 02:27:00 - [159] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 20/09/2009 02:32:10 Originally by: Brolly Originally by: Lotus Sutra I am a mission runner. I have 4 active accounts and 2 inactive accounts. I activate my two inactive accounts. I create characters on all my accounts and fill up all the slots. Train my alt characters with corp management. Create a corp with the alt characters. Jump from the npc corp into my alt characters player corp where the tax is 0%. You war dec my corp. I have no roles so I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec them I leave it and join another one of my alt corp. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. I can do this upto 18 times with my current accounts. If I run out of alt corps that don't have a war against them I leave and create one with this character or stay in an NPC corp for a day or two till you get tired of waging war on a corp of 1 that gives you no targets and costs you isk and me nothing but a few minutes of my time to make the corp, train the character for a few minutes, spend a few thousand isk or so that I can make back in an hour of mission running. The net result is you lose millions of isk, I lose nothing but a few minutes of time. I win. lol, passive aggressive PVP, even the 'carebears' are doing it Don't forget that I can also disband any of those corps at the click of a button and create new 1 man corps for them to war dec so the number of potential alt corps I can make is almost unlimited. This new addition to the game will cost the gank bears far more isk than they make off declaring war. I am sure we will be hearing the impotent screams of rage from them very soon as they all threaten emoragequit with their billiontyeleven accounts
Manu Hermanus FaDoyToy	Posted - 2009.09.20 02:48:00 - [160] Originally by: Hyperforce99 Edited by: Hyperforce99 on 19/09/2009 21:28:27 Originally by: baltec1 CCP Eris Discordia deserves a beer from every player! Thats cruel man You'd kill her with Alcohol poisening. Imagine having to drink 300.000 beers... well if she isn't up to it I call dibs on the task! You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?

Metalcali Dreams In Digital	Posted - 2009.09.20 02:59:00 - [161] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 20/09/2009 02:09:56 I am a mission runner. I have 4 active accounts and 2 inactive accounts. I activate my two inactive accounts. I create characters on all my accounts and fill up all the slots. Train my alt characters with corp management. Create a corp with the alt characters. Jump from the npc corp into my alt characters player corp where the tax is 0%. You war dec my corp. I have no roles so I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec them I leave it and join another one of my alt corp. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. I can do this upto 18 times with my current accounts. If I run out of alt corps that don't have a war against them I leave and create one with this character or stay in an NPC corp for a day or two till you get tired of waging war on a corp of 1 that gives you no targets and costs you isk and me nothing but a few minutes of my time to make the corp, train the character for a few minutes, spend a few thousand isk or so that I can make back in an hour of mission running. The net result is you lose millions of isk, I lose nothing but a few minutes of time. I win. I'd say it would be worth it since you would spend $30 more for two more accounts and this gives CCP more money thus having do more ideas along these lines . That and some people would get a kick knowing they are making you spend RL money just to not have a chance to get shot at --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal Locked. OP does not contain an idea.
Lotus Sutra	Posted - 2009.09.20 03:08:00 - [162] Originally by: Metalcali Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 20/09/2009 02:09:56 I am a mission runner. I have 4 active accounts and 2 inactive accounts. I activate my two inactive accounts. I create characters on all my accounts and fill up all the slots. Train my alt characters with corp management. Create a corp with the alt characters. Jump from the npc corp into my alt characters player corp where the tax is 0%. You war dec my corp. I have no roles so I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec them I leave it and join another one of my alt corp. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. I can do this upto 18 times with my current accounts. If I run out of alt corps that don't have a war against them I leave and create one with this character or stay in an NPC corp for a day or two till you get tired of waging war on a corp of 1 that gives you no targets and costs you isk and me nothing but a few minutes of my time to make the corp, train the character for a few minutes, spend a few thousand isk or so that I can make back in an hour of mission running. The net result is you lose millions of isk, I lose nothing but a few minutes of time. I win. I'd say it would be worth it since you would spend $30 more for two more accounts and this gives CCP more money thus having do more ideas along these lines . That and some people would get a kick knowing they are making you spend RL money just to not have a chance to get shot at I spend that RL money anyway on the game by buying and selling GTC and PLEX so they are not costing me anything more than I already spend. I spend more per week getting pay per views than I spend keeping my accounts running per month.
Lady Spank Amarr Sekret Kool Klubb	Posted - 2009.09.20 03:21:00 - [163] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Originally by: Metalcali Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 20/09/2009 02:09:56 I am a mission runner. I have 4 active accounts and 2 inactive accounts. I activate my two inactive accounts. I create characters on all my accounts and fill up all the slots. Train my alt characters with corp management. Create a corp with the alt characters. Jump from the npc corp into my alt characters player corp where the tax is 0%. You war dec my corp. I have no roles so I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec them I leave it and join another one of my alt corp. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. I can do this upto 18 times with my current accounts. If I run out of alt corps that don't have a war against them I leave and create one with this character or stay in an NPC corp for a day or two till you get tired of waging war on a corp of 1 that gives you no targets and costs you isk and me nothing but a few minutes of my time to make the corp, train the character for a few minutes, spend a few thousand isk or so that I can make back in an hour of mission running. The net result is you lose millions of isk, I lose nothing but a few minutes of time. I win. I'd say it would be worth it since you would spend $30 more for two more accounts and this gives CCP more money thus having do more ideas along these lines . That and some people would get a kick knowing they are making you spend RL money just to not have a chance to get shot at I spend that RL money anyway on the game by buying and selling GTC and PLEX so they are not costing me anything more than I already spend. I spend more per week getting pay per views than I spend keeping my accounts running per month. if all you do is mission and buy plex on top of that, you must be a pretty fail player to need all that isk and QQ about a bit of pvp. The quality of my replies is directly related to the QQuality of the opÆs comments
EveJoker Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.09.20 03:25:00 - [164] This almost makes the scanner nerf bearable.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.09.20 03:26:00 - [165] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Akita T Absolutely nothing. That's pretty much the idea, to make you almost want to create a one-man corp instead of sticking in the NPC ones. That way you CAN be wardecced. The wardec will be useless against a one-man corp. Dropping from a normal corp takes 24 hours. Disbanding a one-man corp takes 1 second. Then you're free to make another one-man corp which takes 24 hours to wardec. Repeat... [...] Tbh, a change like this is completely useless unless something is changed in wardec's too. I see little, if any useful effects of this change if it is done standalone.... Well, obviously, some other things will need to be adjusted, and the wardec mechanics is one such thing. For instance, what about wardecs LOCKING all target corp members into the corp for 48 hours (one day after wardec comes into effect) ? Individual players could express their desire to automatically leave when the 48 hours have passed any time before the 48h are over, and they would be kicked out even if another wardec was inbound in those 48 hours AFTER they expressed their desire to auto-leave (this to prevent wardec perma-locking from multiple declarer corps, but also to prevent people from exploiting this out by having an instant way out on demand, by forcing the corp-leaving when timer's done instead of keeping it an open option). Originally by: annoing Actually ive changed my mind. I DO object to the tax for all the reasons I gave above. CCP are tossers for trying to 'nudge' npc'ers into a corp. Hey heres a thought... maybe they dont want to join a player owned corp? Maybe they dont want to train the skills nescessary to make a corp (yeah i know, anyone can make a corp but if you want you npc friends to join you've got to get the skills then). Maybe they want to do the very thing that you advertised.... play in this great big sandbox in any way they please. You are still ABLE to do anything. There's just a tiny cost associated with doing something specific. If the thing would have been phrased DIFFERENTLY, like, oh, say, "player corp members receive 10% bonus to bounties and mission ISK rewards", would you have still complained the same way ? _ Info about our corp \| Beginer's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper
Lotus Sutra	Posted - 2009.09.20 03:32:00 - [166] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Lotus Sutra Originally by: Metalcali Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 20/09/2009 02:09:56 I am a mission runner. I have 4 active accounts and 2 inactive accounts. I activate my two inactive accounts. I create characters on all my accounts and fill up all the slots. Train my alt characters with corp management. Create a corp with the alt characters. Jump from the npc corp into my alt characters player corp where the tax is 0%. You war dec my corp. I have no roles so I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec them I leave it and join another one of my alt corp. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. I can do this upto 18 times with my current accounts. If I run out of alt corps that don't have a war against them I leave and create one with this character or stay in an NPC corp for a day or two till you get tired of waging war on a corp of 1 that gives you no targets and costs you isk and me nothing but a few minutes of my time to make the corp, train the character for a few minutes, spend a few thousand isk or so that I can make back in an hour of mission running. The net result is you lose millions of isk, I lose nothing but a few minutes of time. I win. I'd say it would be worth it since you would spend $30 more for two more accounts and this gives CCP more money thus having do more ideas along these lines . That and some people would get a kick knowing they are making you spend RL money just to not have a chance to get shot at I spend that RL money anyway on the game by buying and selling GTC and PLEX so they are not costing me anything more than I already spend. I spend more per week getting pay per views than I spend keeping my accounts running per month. if all you do is mission and buy plex on top of that, you must be a pretty fail player to need all that isk and QQ about a bit of pvp. I never said all I do is mission run and buy plex. Learn2Read. I gave examples of what a mission runner could do to gank bears using myself as an example for the mission runners place. I am a Jita sales alt. I haven't QQ about PvP either. I do a lot of that as well on another alt character. Now it is time to begin the attacks on the one who pointed out what is wrong with the gank bears dream tax on NPC corps rather than admitting your great white hope was a dead whale on a beach.
Gideon Kross Caldari PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.09.20 04:41:00 - [167] I know what CCP could do... How about raising the Sales Tax on all transactions in Empire to 5%. Raise all Contract Fees to 10% (Brokers have to make a living to, ya know). Place a 5% Tax on Items sold at Market from sources Outside Reagional Areas (The Caldari State would benefit from this in ways that cannot be described, i.e. Jita). ... Not to mention a 10% Customs Fee for Items sold at Market from Outside The Empire in question. That'd take care of all of Empire Spaces Tax Needs... And No One Perticular Group Is Excluded. Everyone gets to "Assume The Position". Problem Solved. Debate Over.
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.20 05:19:00 - [168] Edited by: Michwich on 20/09/2009 05:20:00 Originally by: AdmiralJohn Originally by: Andra Zeit Originally by: Doomed Predator Only lame ass carebears are ****ed off. ''Oh no, my precious isk/per hour ratio has been dented by a few percent.'' Just give me your stuff and ragequit while you're still upset. Exact. Waste ISK for nothing.. without any sense. Thats why I'm upset. How about you join a real corp and have it count for something, in that case. How about you convince us to join your private corps over the public offered ones. Maybe theres a reason people arent joining your corps. Ever think of that? Instead of asking CCP to make the game easier for you we should be asking CCP to make the game more interesting and fun, which would mean the current corps would have to offer something more attractive then the NPC ones. Youd have to try (imagine that) If not then people wont join, thats the game, thats part of the challenge. But dont private corps get protection in high sec systems? Wheres their tax contributions? What about aggresion, why cant NPC corps help each other and get aggression on anyone who attacked a NCP corp member? And you babies are still crying after CCP has both thier tats shoved in your FACE? PATHETIC
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.09.20 05:26:00 - [169] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Tbh, after considering this a bit, I'd rather see the tax ramp up: 0% first 30 days 15% after 30 days 30% after 60 days If you push up the days a bit like 0% for 60 days, 15% for 60-120 days and 30% for 120+ days all seems good. This way the noobs still have 2 months free time, and 2 more months with small tax. That are 4 months to learn the game a bit more and to find a reasonable player corp. 11% tax is really not going to change anything. If you are mission running, looting and salvaging (which is not taxed, nor the LP income), then you effective tax is only 3%. I dare to says, that this is barely noticable. Originally by: DigitalCommunist And on a slightly related note, but since EVE has regional and constellation gates now, I'd like to see toll fees based on tonnage and standings. That would be very good! Yes, please. If this is coupled with factional standings a bit then we would have an interesting system.
Future Mutant Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.09.20 05:50:00 - [170] Edited by: Future Mutant on 20/09/2009 05:54:26 How to avoid the tax-volume 1 1/Start a 1 man corp- set tax to 0 2/Profit incase of war dek 1/leave corp with war dek 2/join corp w/o wardek 3/profit So this npc tax effects what exactly? edit to say thats all your nerfing is the enjoyment of those that like npc corp chat Your stuff iz mine through actions

Mister Xerox	Posted - 2009.09.20 06:16:00 - [171] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Grimpak HOLY **! THE TEARS! THE FUCKING TEARS!** the new expansion has just become the bestest ever with this. It was already the best ever with the 0.0 changes... but now this. And the faction ships. And the AF boost. And the supercap changes. There's almost too much awesome in this expansion. I'm approaching critical levels of awesome overload. Faction Ship Change: Mouthful of WIN AF Boost: what AF boost??? Are they finally switching the Wolf/Jag range bonuses??? Supercap Changes: Super WIN, kill moar Titans! Sov Changes: I feel sorry for the guys that have to code this... but about damn time!
I SoStoned Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.20 06:26:00 - [172] Originally by: Burning Horizon Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14 It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hasn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me) It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average. Looks like those isk farmers in Npc corps are getting a nerf Source 11%? Eleven?? OMFG what kind of joke is that... it won't make a dent in them. How about this: Base 10% + 1% per month in the NPC corp? That'd push em out relatively quickly but won't unduly penalize people who are just moving from one corp to another. Just so long as war dodgers are flagged no matter where they go. Jump corp, you're still red-flagged for the duration of the war. Period.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.09.20 06:56:00 - [173] Originally by: Future Mutant Edited by: Future Mutant on 20/09/2009 05:54:26 How to avoid the tax-volume 1 1/Start a 1 man corp- set tax to 0 2/Profit incase of war dek 1/leave corp with war dek 2/join corp w/o wardek 3/profit So this npc tax effects what exactly? edit to say thats all your nerfing is the enjoyment of those that like npc corp chat Then you must not like it that much, if a few percentages of lost income will make you leave. You clearly are only there for the added income, since you count enjoyment by the amount of isk you make, so nerfing that income will succeed in herding you out proving what a great and successful idea the tax is. That is what the change is, a missioning nerf. That is the only legitimate gripe I see that people have. But instead of doing it the stupid way of nerfing bounties, LP, salvage or loot, they just added the tax that actually has the benefit of making you think about why you are in a NPC corp. It is okay if you decide to stay and is it fine if you just make your own corp to avoid taxes. Some of those corps will suffer wardecs and either go back, fight or try to avoid them. Even avoiding them has benefits, since for once they are actually engaging their brains and creating advantages for themselves. Most will propably not get decced and notice that life in a player corp isn't as horrible they were lead to believe. So it changes the dynamics of it all. It only seems meaningless to you, because it retains all the options you have today. That means it isn't forcing you to do anything different, just changes the balance between the different options.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.20 07:16:00 - [174] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Then you must not like it that much, if a few percentages of lost income will make you leave. You clearly are only there for the added income, since you count enjoyment by the amount of isk you make, so nerfing that income will succeed in herding you out proving what a great and successful idea the tax is. That is what the change is, a missioning nerf. That is the only legitimate gripe I see that people have. But instead of doing it the stupid way of nerfing bounties, LP, salvage or loot, they just added the tax that actually has the benefit of making you think about why you are in a NPC corp. It is okay if you decide to stay and is it fine if you just make your own corp to avoid taxes. Some of those corps will suffer wardecs and either go back, fight or try to avoid them. Even avoiding them has benefits, since for once they are actually engaging their brains and creating advantages for themselves. Most will propably not get decced and notice that life in a player corp isn't as horrible they were lead to believe. So it changes the dynamics of it all. It only seems meaningless to you, because it retains all the options you have today. That means it isn't forcing you to do anything different, just changes the balance between the different options. EXACTLY, Very well said. I wish I had said it as eloquently as you just did. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Clytamnestra A Slinger of Guns	Posted - 2009.09.20 07:22:00 - [175] I think a lot of people have lost perspective on this. 11% tax on missioning and ratting is an incentive to join a player corp, not a cattle prod forcing you. It's such a small dent, and we all know the real income isn't from bounties, which doesn't get taxed.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.20 07:23:00 - [176] Quote: Next up: CCP to fix the wardec system... I actually agree with you here. Sadly i think we mean completely opposite stuff here with fixing wardec system. You mean you want industrials and rookies to line up for you so you can easily shoot them, because that is how eve is meant to be played, station camping in BS with neutral guardian support against people who will not have a chance at destroying your ships. On the other hand I think wardecs should be changed from the current pay to grief systems to something useful. Wardeccing a group of miners because you want to mine in that belt? (And then actually mine there, not just RP that), perfectly fine. Wardec some industrials because they are undercutting you? Perfectly fine. But right now the wardec system is for 99% used to just get easy ganks because low sec/0.0 is way too scary for the risk free pvp'ers. Some little change to begin with that you might even agree with: Wardecs do not end until both sides agree to end it. So when griefers A wardec corp B, and as default they retract the wardec after a week to randomly wardec some other group and station camp them, the wardec will go on untill corp B desides they also want to stop it. Free of charge, although it then also wont count towards wardec limit of corp A.
Tea McBag	Posted - 2009.09.20 07:49:00 - [177] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 It's a fair change. Good IMO. If tears is what you're looking for, check out GD and Assembly Hall. Plenty of tears there due to recent scanner changes, unless of course pirate tears don't count . Why am i the only non-pirate who hates the scanner changes i love the scanner change, just because of the rivers of tears its a little bit of a pain, but my god the tears have more than made up for it
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.20 08:57:00 - [178] Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: Next up: CCP to fix the wardec system... I actually agree with you here. Sadly i think we mean completely opposite stuff here with fixing wardec system. You mean you want industrials and rookies to line up for you so you can easily shoot them... It's a pity you couldn't go 3 sentences without making a wholly inaccurate ad-hominem. That's probably because you have 2 dozen macro mission accounts generating ISK for you to eBay. Really, it takes no effort whatsoever to determine that virtually all of the people I shoot at are very well armed indeed. There is no way to stop a non-consensual war-dec system being a "pay to grief" way to victimize weak, badly run corps with no PvP capability except to discourage people from creating weak, badly run corps with no PvP capability. IMO it is far too cheap both in ISK and SP to create a corp, which misleads new players into thinking that creating a corp is something a new player is supposed to do. Up the requirement to Corp Management V, and make the cost around 50-100M ISK or so, and see the difference. New players wont be so inclined to create a corp on the second day of their trial, so avoiding swimming like minnows into the pirhana pool, and it becomes much more expensive to game the wardec system. I would concede that it is increasingly urgent that CCP fix the bounty system. This should be the counterbalance to the wardec system, and we can't balance one without the other IMO. Let us transfer killrights, for the love of God. Just do it through the contract system and allow us to add a sum of ISK, with the ISK being paid out in increments equal to the cost of insuring the ship destroyed. You could add in a deposit so that if the bounty target accepted the contract with an alt and just let it lapse, he would have to pay for the privilege.
eliminator2 Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.20 09:02:00 - [179] OMG OMG OMG this patch is everything faction ships pirate ships boost and new faction ships ^^ 11% corp tax on NPC players ^^ new sov idea keep it up with epic ideas ----------------------------------------------- i met Eliminator1..... i ate it and spat it out now hes my minion :) i kill miners and missioners people say, i call them target practise
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.20 09:15:00 - [180] Originally by: Malcanis 1 simple way: a wardec follows a player that leaves a corp just like it follows a corp that leaves an alliance. I don't think things like this'll EVER get approved by CCP! Like it or not, a large part of EVE's subscriber base are people who don't WANT to PvP, and who certainly doesn't want to be griefed by high-SP players who think that is fun. If you start penalising that attitude, then you risk that player segment, ie. you risk a large part of your income. A solution like this would force these players into playing EVE in a way they don't want, or be penalised for playing like they want. When one of those players logs into his 1-man corp, finds a wardec, and finds out he can't play for a week..... 'Cancel subscription' starts looking like a good option... Same for a player who feels his way of playing is looked upon by the game's creator as a 'second-rate' one.... You can of.c. say GB to WOW, hello kitty or others, but that is LOST revenue for the game, ie. is bad for all of us. A far better solution is to fix the disparity between high-sec earnings and low-sec/0.0 earnings. If high-sec earnings was much worse than 0.0 or low-sec, there'd be no reason to tinker with NPC corp tax rates, and I think something like that would go down far better as there's at least some logic to it (risk/reward). Note that I'd be happy enough myself with a rule like this since I only use my high-sec characters occationally, but I CAN see the other side's point of view. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.20 09:20:00 - [181] Quote: It's a pity you couldn't go 3 sentences without making a wholly inaccurate ad-hominem. That's probably because you have 2 dozen macro mission accounts generating ISK for you to eBay. That is still one sentence better than you could manage. So you dont want only to force people into player corporations, but you also want to get them into large corporations making it easier to wardec more miners at the same time. If you want to get rid of those bad organised corporations which give all player corporations a bad name, then forcing people into player corporations is NOT the thing to do.
Kezzle	Posted - 2009.09.20 09:30:00 - [182] Originally by: Tippia NPC corp taxes will affect two things: mission rewards and bounties, and, even then, only when they exceed 100k ISK. That's it. *It will make f-all difference to new players reaching for that new ship and new set of modules* because the vast majority of their earnings come from other sources and it will be quite a while before their NPC ISK payouts exceed 100k. I believe your conclusion is incorrect, Tip, because your assumptions are off. You get mission rewards of over 100k from missions on the newb Epic Arc. They'd be taxed. I'm pretty sure you get mission rewards of over 100k from L2 missions. Hardly "veteran" level activity. While this tax wouldn't force anyone to quit a newbcorp, it would encourage people who don't know better to accept their first random invite from a mobcorp, which could be even more discouraging an experience than having your "hard-earned" leeched off. It would lead to newbcorps being populated with mining, market and industry alts even more so than is currently the case, and unfortunate newbs being decanted unnecessarily out of what is generally a supportive environment that does the job of the "Rookie channel" far better than that utterly inadequate medium could hope to. For what gain? There are already plenty of 'mom-and-pop' corps out there for the sharks to wardec, if they could be bothered. The soloers who feel that the tax can't be borne will just train skills (for a day?), drop into the shoal of new one-man corps and lose any remnant social interaction they had. They won't chat to anyone to add to buddy lists and maybe think about setting up corp with later, and they'll just corphop to avoid 'decs. As has been said, it's not a big chunk of change out of L4s, but it will push the balance for L2s and L3s much further towards salvaging. Unless CCP feels that board tears are worth more than in-game tears, or can't find any ways in-game to encourage PvP, so is doing this so the griefers get their rocks off in the forums as a substitute, this change isn't going to change much except the number of figures after the decimal point in every calculation. How much does it cost to wardec a 3-corp alliance? Or an 8-corp one?
Ariane VoxDei	Posted - 2009.09.20 09:42:00 - [183] Originally by: MooKids Personally, I welcome our new NPC Corp tax overlords. Seriously, this does have a nice benefit as it is also a way to remove some ISK out of circulation, in a way, slightly curbing inflation. When are you, and ignorant people like you, going to stop trolling with arguments like that? It's not removing money. It's not a isk-sink. All it does is slow one of the isk income streams a bit. Examples of sinks - things which do take isk out the total pool: NPC sell orders, for example skillbooks and BPO's. Market taxes. Insurance that is allowed to expire. Clones and jumpclones. Most of the LP store offers. NPC research and manufacture slots.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 09:44:00 - [184] Originally by: Kezzle I believe your conclusion is incorrect, Tip, because your assumptions are off. You get mission rewards of over 100k from missions on the newb Epic Arc. They'd be taxed. I'm pretty sure you get mission rewards of over 100k from L2 missions. Hardly "veteran" level activity. …and compared to the real sources of income at that level (loot and salvage), the bounties and rewards are such a small part that it makes nearly no difference. By the time new players start to get affected in any serious way by the tax, they'll have past the phase where it's a problem to earn enough to afford new ships and modules, and it won't make a noticeable dent in your income until you're mass-chaining L4s — hardly newb territory. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.20 09:48:00 - [185] Edited by: Malcanis on 20/09/2009 09:52:11 Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: It's a pity you couldn't go 3 sentences without making a wholly inaccurate ad-hominem. That's probably because you have 2 dozen macro mission accounts generating ISK for you to eBay. That is still one sentence better than you could manage. So you dont want only to force people into player corporations, but you also want to get them into large corporations making it easier to wardec more miners at the same time. If you want to get rid of those bad organised corporations which give all player corporations a bad name, then forcing people into player corporations is NOT the thing to do. I see you're still immune to the concept of satire, as well as deliberately ignorant. In fact you're a liar. That's someone who doesn't tell the truth on purpose; like you're deliberately doing about me. You're trying - badly - to discredit me because you dont want to deal with my arguments. A very weak, poor and well-known fallacy. For the record, I literally cant remember the last time I shot at someone in empire. It was probably back around May/June when Rote Kapelle wardecced us, and killing ships belonging to lo-sec pirate alliances was not the kind of activity you're trying to accuse me of. Got any proof to back up your lies about my motivations, any at all, or will you just keep lying every time you're asked for any? try being honest for once. It's difficult and confusing at first, but after a while you'll get used to it. EDIT: Come to think of it, you've infested these debates before, and all you do is accuse people who disagree with you of being "gankers" wanting to kill "noobs". That's the only card you ever play. So you're not even a liar trying to protect his macro income source, which I could at least respect as being intelligently self-interested; you're just a troll.
Doddy The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.20 09:54:00 - [186] Pretty good decision i think. War dec immunity actually costs something which keep the "its not fair" crowd like me happy, some people will get more sociable because of it and join a real corp (those for whom paying 10% tax puts them off being in a player corp)which is always a good thing, the rest aren't harmed enough to really matter (those wishing a pure solo experience) and the RMT isk farmers profits are cut a tiny bit (every little helps). Tbh they should have just made it 10% though.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:01:00 - [187] Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/09/2009 10:01:50 More sociable how compared to being in a corp with thousands of others? You make it sound like it would be better for them to be in a player run corp, why would it be? Quote: In fact you're a liar Always easy to take everything personal, but believe it or not, it wasnt. I am not going to search who shoots what kind of people, you apparently arent just there to get easy kills, fine, i would even say good. But lets stay realistic, enough are there only to shoot rookies and industrials. They want completely risk free pvp in high sec. There are enough corporations who like to help new players started, so also get them into a player corp like you want, who eventually have to disband because they get perma wardecced. And while you apparently arent like that, the reality is that enough people are in eve for basicly riskfree pvp by wardeccing rookies and everyone else who you cant seriously expect to fight back. And even if they can seriously fight back, like all the 0.0 alliances getting wardecced, then they still make sure they never are at risk by having enough neutral reppers arround.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:01:00 - [188] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Malcanis 1 simple way: a wardec follows a player that leaves a corp just like it follows a corp that leaves an alliance. I don't think things like this'll EVER get approved by CCP! Like it or not, a large part of EVE's subscriber base are people who don't WANT to PvP, and who certainly doesn't want to be griefed by high-SP players who think that is fun. If you start penalising that attitude, then you risk that player segment, ie. you risk a large part of your income. A solution like this would force these players into playing EVE in a way they don't want, or be penalised for playing like they want. When one of those players logs into his 1-man corp, finds a wardec, and finds out he can't play for a week..... 'Cancel subscription' starts looking like a good option... Same for a player who feels his way of playing is looked upon by the game's creator as a 'second-rate' one.... You can of.c. say GB to WOW, hello kitty or others, but that is LOST revenue for the game, ie. is bad for all of us. A far better solution is to fix the disparity between high-sec earnings and low-sec/0.0 earnings. If high-sec earnings was much worse than 0.0 or low-sec, there'd be no reason to tinker with NPC corp tax rates, and I think something like that would go down far better as there's at least some logic to it (risk/reward). Note that I'd be happy enough myself with a rule like this since I only use my high-sec characters occationally, but I CAN see the other side's point of view. Who said anything about a week? Wardecs follow corps for 24 hours. As for not WANTING to PVP... that tired old argument again. OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP. Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his?
Mikal Drey Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:06:00 - [189] hey hey im kinda confused . . .what exactly is it taxing ? if its using the standard tax method of taxing bounties over X amount then this is a direct tax on mission running. you can still mine, trade, salvage, build, invent etc without losing income to tax. a direct tax on mission running seems to me like a direct nerf and disguising it as npc corp tax serves no purpose. Shattered Crystal - 60D GTC
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:10:00 - [190] Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/09/2009 10:01:50 More sociable how compared to being in a corp with thousands of others? You make it sound like it would be better for them to be in a player run corp, why would it be? Quote: In fact you're a liar Always easy to take everything personal, but believe it or not, it wasnt. I am not going to search who shoots what kind of people, you apparently arent just there to get easy kills, fine, i would even say good. But lets stay realistic, enough are there only to shoot rookies and industrials. They want completely risk free pvp in high sec. There are enough corporations who like to help new players started, so also get them into a player corp like you want, who eventually have to disband because they get perma wardecced. And while you apparently arent like that, the reality is that enough people are in eve for basicly riskfree pvp by wardeccing rookies and everyone else who you cant seriously expect to fight back. And even if they can seriously fight back, like all the 0.0 alliances getting wardecced, then they still make sure they never are at risk by having enough neutral reppers arround. So bring them some risk. It's not up to CCP to provide safety for people who choose to do dangerous things, but players are more than welcome to do that. Instead of crying for ever more contrived levels of protection via game mechanics, ask for tools to return the favour. There may be as many people dedicated to shooting noob corps as you say. Personally I think it sounds like a pretty dull way to play the game, but that's cold, harsh sandboxes for you. The answer is not more restrictions on gankers, it's more tools for inflicting consequences. Eg: tradable killrights. And for the love of god, stop stereotyping everyone who disagrees with you. That's just plain trolling, or at best making yourself look very silly. I provided a link to my combat record to back up my assertion and you just went ahead and ignored that information. Look at the argument and the supporting evidence next time. Speaking of which, do you have any?

Haakelen Gallente Angels.	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:12:00 - [191] Originally by: Furb Killer More sociable how compared to being in a corp with thousands of others? You've been in player corps (including Siigari's ). Looking through your corp history, this presumably includes experiencing what player corps of various sizes and competency do. You were also in factional warfare twice, so I'll use small words. An NPC corp is not a corp, it is a channel with wardec immunity. The pathetic little pubbie activities that are occasionally undertaken by bitter old vets (like you) notwithstanding, nothing happens in NPC corps that in any way resembles the activities in player corps, large or small. People who spend a lot of time in NPC corps are not playing Eve. People who want a single player game should play one. Or, alternatively, people who like the usual MMO experience of being in a sea of faceless, nameless drones who kill weak little NPCs all day and once and a while form ad hoc groups would probably be better served in a game that fosters that kind of lame excuse for community. The argument of 'herp derp thousands of members in NPC corps' is fallacious bull****, and everyone who says it knows it. Your hilarious deeply ingrained righteous indignation about internet spaceship injustice is the reason why you oppose anything that reinforces the player interaction that is mostly unique to Eve, and this is absolutely no exception.
Justcase	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:12:00 - [192] My main mission runner char have been in a solo corp doing level 4s in like 6 months and have never seen a war deck. Exactly where is the problem? Do theese tard high sec "PvPers" usually war dec one man corpses and I have just been lucky? Anyways, ill make a new carebear corp as soon as this hits the live servers. Ill load it up with carebears so the tard "PVPers" dont have to waste money war decing all the small 1 man corpses. BTW, what variables do the tard "PVPers" look at when choosing a war deck target anyways?
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:14:00 - [193] If it were a pirate tax, this thread would be at least three times the size and we'd had another dozen redundant ones. -------- Ideas for: Mining
In4r4	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:15:00 - [194] I hope this does nudge people into player corps , this character is a trading alt , and NPC corp chat is full of long term NPC corp mission runners telling everyone who will listen not to join a player corp, because they will either lose all their money to a greedy CEO or die every day without fail.
Xionte Something More Sinister Stellar Eclipse	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:21:00 - [195] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 20/09/2009 02:09:56 I am a mission runner. I have 4 active accounts and 2 inactive accounts. I activate my two inactive accounts. I create characters on all my accounts and fill up all the slots. Train my alt characters with corp management. Create a corp with the alt characters. Jump from the npc corp into my alt characters player corp where the tax is 0%. You war dec my corp. I have no roles so I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec them I leave it and join another one of my alt corp. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. I can do this upto 18 times with my current accounts. If I run out of alt corps that don't have a war against them I leave and create one with this character or stay in an NPC corp for a day or two till you get tired of waging war on a corp of 1 that gives you no targets and costs you isk and me nothing but a few minutes of my time to make the corp, train the character for a few minutes, spend a few thousand isk or so that I can make back in an hour of mission running. The net result is you lose millions of isk, I lose nothing but a few minutes of time. I win. if too many people start doing this i forsee something along the lines of "for every 1,000,000 Skill points a character has it takes 100,000ISK Concord proccessing fee to accept them into your corporation"
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:27:00 - [196] Originally by: Justcase My main mission runner char have been in a solo corp doing level 4s in like 6 months and have never seen a war deck. Exactly where is the problem? Do theese tard high sec "PvPers" usually war dec one man corpses and I have just been lucky? Anyways, ill make a new carebear corp as soon as this hits the live servers. Ill load it up with carebears so the tard "PVPers" dont have to waste money war decing all the small 1 man corpses. BTW, what variables do the tard "PVPers" look at when choosing a war deck target anyways? Grandiose corp titles (and especially medals) Overpriced faction/deadspace/officer fittings (you know, like all noobs have) An addiction to local smack.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:27:00 - [197] Quote: So bring them some risk. It's not up to CCP to provide safety for people who choose to do dangerous things, but players are more than welcome to do that. Instead of crying for ever more contrived levels of protection via game mechanics, ask for tools to return the favour. There may be as many people dedicated to shooting noob corps as you say. Personally I think it sounds like a pretty dull way to play the game, but that's cold, harsh sandboxes for you. The answer is not more restrictions on gankers, it's more tools for inflicting consequences. Eg: tradable killrights. And for the love of god, stop stereotyping everyone who disagrees with you. That's just plain trolling, or at best making yourself look very silly. I provided a link to my combat record to back up my assertion and you just went ahead and ignored that information. Look at the argument and the supporting evidence next time. Speaking of which, do you have any? Sure i have one, lately not pvping too much (getting isk for dread, and all the skillbooks i required, is kinda expensive. Then add that in most fleets i fly these days i am flying logistics, you dont get on too many kms). While I just personally disagree that being in an NPC corp is wrong somehow, i also told that at least they should fix other stuff like wardecs first before doing such things. But CCP said allready they wont change that, so for now we are stuck with station camping BS with RR support, and as long as that is the case i will never agree with such changes. Originally by: Haakelen You've been in player corps (including Siigari's ). One day doesnt count ;) Quote: People who spend a lot of time in NPC corps are not playing Eve. Because they arent open to being wardecced they dont play eve? Hell most of the time i spend in NPC corps, which is quite some time actually, i was in low sec roaming arround. But that is apparently not eve. Quote: People who want a single player game should play one. And who says NPC corps is a single player game? Considering most pvp ended up in the other corp throwing 5-15 ships on you i didnt notice that much of the single player game you are talking about. Quote: lame excuse for community. Yeah because the eve community is known for their maturity... Quote: The argument of 'herp derp thousands of members in NPC corps' is fallacious bull****, and everyone who says it knows it. Your hilarious deeply ingrained righteous indignation about internet spaceship injustice is the reason why you oppose anything that reinforces the player interaction that is mostly unique to Eve, and this is absolutely no exception. You said you would use small words...
Aurorae Andromedae	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:29:00 - [198] Originally by: In4r4 I hope this does nudge people into player corps , this character is a trading alt , and NPC corp chat is full of long term NPC corp mission runners telling everyone who will listen not to join a player corp, because they will either lose all their money to a greedy CEO or die every day without fail. They will, they all will create one man corporation and set tax at zero. That will cost 1.6 million ISK to him. Now wardec is 50 million isk. When wardec comes, the mission runner closes the corporation and wardec gone. And pvp'ers lost 50 million and mission runner 1.6 million. Now the mission runner can make a new corporation straight away, wich costs him that 1.6 million isk again. But they have to wait 24 hour period with new wardec. There will be no tears, just god damn long employment lists.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:31:00 - [199] Originally by: Ariane VoxDei Originally by: MooKids Personally, I welcome our new NPC Corp tax overlords. Seriously, this does have a nice benefit as it is also a way to remove some ISK out of circulation, in a way, slightly curbing inflation. When are you, and ignorant people like you, going to stop trolling with arguments like that? It's not removing money. It's not a isk-sink. All it does is slow one of the isk income streams a bit. Examples of sinks - things which do take isk out the total pool: NPC sell orders, for example skillbooks and BPO's. Market taxes. Insurance that is allowed to expire. Clones and jumpclones. Most of the LP store offers. NPC research and manufacture slots. Lolwat? This WOULD be an Isk sink. Just a very passive one. It removes the money as soon as it enters the game instead of later on. In essence its just an Isk sink. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
Doddy The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:32:00 - [200] Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/09/2009 10:01:50 More sociable how compared to being in a corp with thousands of others? You make it sound like it would be better for them to be in a player run corp, why would it be? Believe it or not i have been in an npc corp before. A glorified chat channel dominated by 2 or 3 superegos and a dozen isk sellers/scammers while the other thousand people have it minimized.

Haakelen Gallente Angels.	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:36:00 - [201] Originally by: Furb Killer And who says NPC corps is a single player game? (didn't quote the rest because it's incomprehensible) I do. Because it is ! The kind of people who stay in NPC corps for months and months on end are almost universal in their desire to never encounter another person during their game activities. Originally by: Furb Killer Yeah because the eve community is known for their maturity... Maturity wasn't what I was talking about, but you're talking about internet game forums. If you want maturity, I would recommend you look elsewhere. I'd say something here about sandboxes or something but . Originally by: Furb Killer You said you would use small words... I'm a relentlessly habitual liar. But I'm a PvPer, so you expect it, no?
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:43:00 - [202] Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 20/09/2009 10:44:53 Can we get a general tax on owned stuff? This includes stuff no on stations like Titans, Motherships, POSs, POS equip like guns, player owned stations, all this trillions of unrefined Ore some miner store over years! Every month the player, corp or ally has to pay 11% of the actual market value of all this stuff they own. But no, not likely we will get this as we all know CCP love pirates, griffer and other criminal acters but hate mission runners! PS: and why the f* are player allowed to use NPC services if they do not pay this tax???? IF you bring this stupid idear live, you MUST disable all of this services for player, who do not pay this tax!!! Originally by:** CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
Radix Salvilines Shadow Veil Industrial	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:46:00 - [203] yeeeeeeeah 20% would be better :) ok the summery then: THE BEST CHANGE: tax in npc corps THE WORST CHANGE: ****ty camo for faction ships
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:50:00 - [204] Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 20/09/2009 10:51:17 And when do we get REAL punishment for criminals? Jails where pirates sit and can't play for 1 minute peer isk they destroyed? Oh yes, ganged faction fitted navy raven in highsec == 1000000000 minuts in jail = can't play for the next year But no, as CCP again does not touch all this pirat alts in NPC corps but let them do there buisness without a posibility to catch them! Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
Jhagiti Tyran Mortis Angelus Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:55:00 - [205] Originally by: Jack Jombardo PS: and why the f*** are player allowed to use NPC services if they do not pay this tax???? IF you bring this stupid idear live, you MUST disable all of this services for player, who do not pay this tax!!! You do pay for npc services, for using the market you pay transaction tax and broker fees you also pay fees to change your cloning station and to install jumpclones and you pay fees to setup contracts and to use repair services and when you refine or reprocess something they npcs take a percentage.
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:56:00 - [206] The rate should be raised by 5% every week they are in the corp.
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.09.20 10:58:00 - [207] Originally by: In4r4 I hope this does nudge people into player corps , this character is a trading alt , and NPC corp chat is full of long term NPC corp mission runners telling everyone who will listen not to join a player corp, because they will either lose all their money to a greedy CEO or die every day without fail. This is true, the general advice by 'veteran' players is the Player corps rip you off, when in most cases this isnt true. Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae They will, they all will create one man corporation and set tax at zero. That will cost 1.6 million ISK to him. Now wardec is 50 million isk. When wardec comes, the mission runner closes the corporation and wardec gone. And pvp'ers lost 50 million and mission runner 1.6 million. Now the mission runner can make a new corporation straight away, wich costs him that 1.6 million isk again. But they have to wait 24 hour period with new wardec. There will be no tears, just god damn long employment lists. Its not so simple : closing the corp in order avoid wardecs, and starting a new one, this is as far as i know classed as an Exploit thus a bannable offence. In general i see the 11% tax as a great move forward, though id be tempted set it to 25%, then there would really be an excuse to leave. Noobs, wont really feel the pinch as all Level 1 and a about 60% of level 2 missions are below the threshold for tax anyway, and Time rewards IIRC arnt subject to tax.
Gunner Dark	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:04:00 - [208] Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae Originally by: In4r4 I hope this does nudge people into player corps , this character is a trading alt , and NPC corp chat is full of long term NPC corp mission runners telling everyone who will listen not to join a player corp, because they will either lose all their money to a greedy CEO or die every day without fail. They will, they all will create one man corporation and set tax at zero. That will cost 1.6 million ISK to him. Now wardec is 50 million isk. When wardec comes, the mission runner closes the corporation and wardec gone. And pvp'ers lost 50 million and mission runner 1.6 million. Now the mission runner can make a new corporation straight away, wich costs him that 1.6 million isk again. But they have to wait 24 hour period with new wardec. There will be no tears, just god damn long employment lists. You are still patting yourself on the back for your "unique idea " Lotus Sutra ?
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:04:00 - [209] Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran Originally by: Jack Jombardo PS: and why the f*** are player allowed to use NPC services if they do not pay this tax???? IF you bring this stupid idear live, you MUST disable all of this services for player, who do not pay this tax!!! You do pay for npc services, for using the market you pay transaction tax and broker fees you also pay fees to change your cloning station and to install jumpclones and you pay fees to setup contracts and to use repair services and when you refine or reprocess something they npcs take a percentage. Not strictly true, if you have good standings with that NPC corp, you have 0% tax on refines, as well as a drop in market taxes, on top of that trade skills that help reduce the market fees even further.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:09:00 - [210] Originally by: Mikal Drey if its using the standard tax method of taxing bounties over X amount then this is a direct tax on mission running. you can still mine, trade, salvage, build, invent etc without losing income to tax. a direct tax on mission running seems to me like a direct nerf and disguising it as npc corp tax serves no purpose. By the sounds of it, it's a normal corp tax. It's not a direct nerf in disguise for the simple reason that it doesn't go after mission runners since you can run missions without being affected by it. Instead, it reduces the impact of one of the (or perhaps even the only) completely untouchable income streams in the game: NPC payouts from running missions in an NPC corp. Everything else you do in such a corp is subject to competition and PvP, so they're already self-balancing. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

Drykor Minmatar Reikoku	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:15:00 - [211] Isn't leaving a corp repeatedly to avoid a wardec a punishable offense?
Coch Draig Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:18:00 - [212] If you mission run: Create Corp Set tax at 0% Proceed with single player activities If you do anything else (mining, trading etc): Stay where you are! HOPE THIS VERY VERY SIMPLE SOLUTION HELPS EVERYONE. NOW MOVE ALONG PLEASE, THANK YOU.
Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:24:00 - [213] This is easily the stupidest idea ever.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:29:00 - [214] Edited by: Kerfira on 20/09/2009 11:31:14 Originally by: Malcanis As for not WANTING to PVP... that tired old argument again. OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP. Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his? I wasn't saying that I thought so ....just that a very large portion of CCP's customers is of that opinion, and that is a fact CCP WILL have to take into account! They simply can't annoy that large a number of players too much. Making them feel forced to do something they don't want, or making them feel penalised is NOT how an MMO will thrive... Most people take it very negatively to be treated as a second-rate customer... Say CCP has a profit margin of 10% (which would be pretty high), that means that 90% of their customers pay for CCP's expenses, and 10% pays for profit. This of.c. means that even a small number of players getting annoyed enough to quit will have a disproportionate effect on CCP's finances and ability to invest. This is why I suggest changing the income dynamics between high-sec and 0.0/low-sec instead, even if this include a nerf to L4 mission income. That way people in NPC corp might complain over that, but they'll not be able to claim they're penalised for not wanting to PvP. This would likely go down far better than an arbitrary NPC corp tax, since it would be directly tied to something players know and understand, that 0.0 and low-sec carries dangers, and thus higher rewards seem logical. There'd be no need to tinker with NPC corp taxes, and people wanting to play EVE free of PvP could do so with a WELL-EXPLAINED reason for why their income is lower than the people accepting the PvP 'risk'. Originally by: Drykor Isn't leaving a corp repeatedly to avoid a wardec a punishable offense? Nope! The wardec is considered to be against the corp, not the individual player! Constantly wardec'ing corp as a specific player enters it MIGHT be considered harassment though.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:31:00 - [215] Originally by: Drykor Isn't leaving a corp repeatedly to avoid a wardec a punishable offense? if repeatedly, then yes. first hop, not punishable, but second hop raises some flags. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:36:00 - [216] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 20/09/2009 02:09:56 I am a mission runner. I have 4 active accounts and 2 inactive accounts. I activate my two inactive accounts. I create characters on all my accounts and fill up all the slots. Train my alt characters with corp management. Create a corp with the alt characters. Jump from the npc corp into my alt characters player corp where the tax is 0%. You war dec my corp. I have no roles so I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec them I leave it and join another one of my alt corp. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps. I can do this upto 18 times with my current accounts. If I run out of alt corps that don't have a war against them I leave and create one with this character or stay in an NPC corp for a day or two till you get tired of waging war on a corp of 1 that gives you no targets and costs you isk and me nothing but a few minutes of my time to make the corp, train the character for a few minutes, spend a few thousand isk or so that I can make back in an hour of mission running. The net result is you lose millions of isk, I lose nothing but a few minutes of time. I win. Except the minor matter that switching corps to avoid wardecs is considered by CCP to be an exploit, thus exposing you to having your accounts warned, or potentially banned after repeat offenses. Personally I don't care either way, but before you advise people to do things of this nature you should be sure that it's allowed.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:42:00 - [217] Originally by: Kerfira Nope! The wardec is considered to be against the corp, not the individual player! Constantly wardec'ing corp as a specific player enters it MIGHT be considered harassment though.... Actually it is. The idea is that the players should not be able to use game mechanics (changing corps) to avoid wardecs. On the other hand, repeatedly wardecing an individual in whatever corp that he is in is not considered exploitative or harassment. I recall doing this to a corp thief in 2005 or so. He complained to CCP, CCP's response was basically "well next time don't steal from the vindictive".
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.20 11:54:00 - [218] Edited by: Kerfira on 20/09/2009 11:56:20 Originally by: Kai Lae Originally by: Kerfira Nope! The wardec is considered to be against the corp, not the individual player! Constantly wardec'ing corp as a specific player enters it MIGHT be considered harassment though.... Actually it is. The idea is that the players should not be able to use game mechanics (changing corps) to avoid wardecs. On the other hand, repeatedly wardecing an individual in whatever corp that he is in is not considered exploitative or harassment. I recall doing this to a corp thief in 2005 or so. He complained to CCP, CCP's response was basically "well next time don't steal from the vindictive". Please look at this then.... Originally by: GM Nythanos Hello, For #1, Closing a corporation and opening a new one with the same members is allowed, and the people who declared war on your now closed corporation can declare a new war on your new corporation if they choose to do so. For #2, Using alt corps to increase the cost of wars against your corporation or alliance is prohibited. To help clarify this, there are restrictions with regards to joining and leaving corporation, such as mentioned here: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2317&tid=1 This is an official GM ruling posted on EO less than 3 months ago..... Ok, it does speak about closing a corp and opening another one, but this is how 1-man corp WOULD do it since you can do that in 5 seconds (at a minor ISK cost). Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.20 12:06:00 - [219] I would want to get that confirmed. It seems illogical that CCP are going to penalize people in NPC corps (due to their wardec immunity) but make it possible for players to basically evade wardecs by changing corporations at will. One thing I've learned over the years is that if it's not a senior GM or above telling you the information, it's basically totally useless.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.20 12:14:00 - [220] Originally by: Kai Lae I would want to get that confirmed. It seems illogical that CCP are going to penalize people in NPC corps (due to their wardec immunity) but make it possible for players to basically evade wardecs by changing corporations at will. And since when has CCP stopped doing illogical things? Eris says 'nudge' people, and no changes in wardec mechanics. That to me says they're going about this VERY softly-softly to avoid upsetting non-PvP players too much. It's pretty good business practice to KEEP the players who like to play alone and not PvP.... They probably only intend this as a 'nudge' for the undecided, and haven't considered that a lot of players actually LIKE being in a noob corp with plenty of people to talk to and no obligations or extra danger.... Originally by: Kai Lae One thing I've learned over the years is that if it's not a senior GM or above telling you the information, it's basically totally useless. True, but this was preceded by this post from a Dev: Originally by: CCP Navigator Hello all, I just want to pop in and say that someone from Customer Support will be along shortly to clarify this matter in detail for you all. Replies to an earlier post have been deleted so as not confuse others. Thank you. I think that pretty much makes it an official ruling.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

Coch Draig Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.09.20 12:18:00 - [221] What are the chances of getting wardecced? If all these single player mission runners so to speak created individual corps there would be so many of them that the chances of getting decced really would be just bad luck. I would probably stay in this NPC corp myself as it's only a trader so no taxes for me I keep reading this comment when new things arrive in eve so here it is...... "adapt or die".
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2009.09.20 12:21:00 - [222] I forsee alot of 0% taxed alt corps, and alot of tears on patchday.
ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.09.20 12:26:00 - [223] Originally by: Kerfira I think that pretty much makes it an official ruling.... actually, if u dig a bit further back in time you will also find a dev post stating that its a exploit to jump corps/disband corps over and over
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.20 12:29:00 - [224] Edited by: Kerfira on 20/09/2009 12:33:28 Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Kerfira I think that pretty much makes it an official ruling.... actually, if u dig a bit further back in time you will also find a dev post stating that its a exploit to jump corps/disband corps over and over Newer ruling trumps older ruling Besides, this one actually seems to have been discussed by the GM's, given the preceding posts by other CCP staff..... Even if they did change a ruling, they did so consistently. They have been doing this for a while, so they could reduce the load on their petition staff. Basically these days, if allowed by game mechanics it's not an exploit, unless it is really extreme! Tbh, the best thing would be CCP maintaining a list of official rulings. That way there wouldn't be any doubts! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Varilinda	Posted - 2009.09.20 13:14:00 - [225] Originally by: TimMc I forsee alot of 0% taxed alt corps, and alot of tears on patchday. I agree....from the piwates that is. But then their rivers of tears flood daily anyway so I guess that wont be much of a difference from normal life in EvE.
Cre'tal Eminent Disdain	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:27:00 - [226] OK, I stopped reading after the first page, and this is awfully late in the thread, let me see if I understand this correctly: 1) Current NPC corp tax is 10%. 2) CCP wants to raise it to a whopping 11% to "punish" the carebears 3) People are whining. Did I seriously get that right? Hell, I went from a corp with a 20% tax to one with a 10% tax, and I barely noticed. Are people really getting bent about a 1% increase? I think the effect on the standard carebear, or even the ISK farmer for that matter would be nigh un-noticeable.
Amerilia	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:28:00 - [227] no its 0% now
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:29:00 - [228] Originally by: Cre'tal let me see if I understand this correctly: 1) Current NPC corp tax is 10%. 2) CCP wants to raise it to a whopping 11% to "punish" the carebears 3) People are whining. #1 is incorrect — NPC corp tax is currently 0% — but other than that, yes. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:32:00 - [229] No you didn¦t. Current npc corp tax is 0%.
Cre'tal Eminent Disdain	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:34:00 - [230] Ah thank you. It's been a long while since I've been in an NPC corp, and I was always under the assumption that it was a 10% tax. Well, then, good show, CCP. Adding a NPC tax is a great idea AFAIC.

WhiteGhostBear Furs of New Eden	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:39:00 - [231] 11%? Many player corps are at 10%, if not 5%. A few extra % for war dec immunity, no politics, etc.? Not a bad price to pay. Too bad this punishes new players; would rather have this start at 0%, then climb in 5% increments every month up to, say, a 25% tax, or more.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:41:00 - [232] Edited by: Julian Lynq on 20/09/2009 14:41:51 Originally by: Cre'tal Ah thank you. It's been a long while since I've been in an NPC corp, and I was always under the assumption that it was a 10% tax. Well, then, good show, CCP. Adding a NPC tax is a great idea AFAIC. If you¦d take the time to properly read the thread you¦d maybe notice why actually it¦s not such a great idea. By the way is there a reason you post in all green text ?
Gonada Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:46:00 - [233] the tears are awsome.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:46:00 - [234] Originally by: Julian Lynq If you¦d take the time to properly read the thread you¦d maybe notice why actually it¦s not such a great idea. If you took the time to read the thread, you'd notice that it is, and that many of those who claim otherwise have no idea how corp taxes in EVE work… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:50:00 - [235] How taxes work does not matter. It is not a good idea, because it will not achieve the effect the devs are hoping for. People will make 1 man corporations. Many of them. They get wardecc, they make a new one. No gain for you fail-pvp¦ers at all. Shall Ccp then later decide to increase corporation creation tax or restrict 1 man corporations somehow, people will just pay the stupid 11% tax - a big chunk however will propably also quit the game. Again no gain for the fail-pvp¦ers.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:58:00 - [236] Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2009 15:00:36 Originally by: Julian Lynq How taxes work does not matter. It is not a good idea, because it will not achieve the effect the devs are hoping for. And what effect is that? Quote: People will make 1 man corporations. Many of them. They get wardecc, they make a new one. No gain for you fail-pvp¦ers at all. So what's the problem? And how do you measure "gain"? Oh and: Quote: How taxes work does not matter. Yes it does, because it's the ignorance about the effect of taxes that largely drives the assumption that people will flee to 1-man corps. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Andra Zeit	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:58:00 - [237] If CCP does not like people in NPC Corps, they can cancel their subcritions. After this, all players are in player corps, the developers are happy and the sun is shining so bride.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:02:00 - [238] Edited by: Julian Lynq on 20/09/2009 15:02:29 Originally by: Tippia And what effect is that? Again, properly read the thread: Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:05:00 - [239] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Tippia And what effect is that? Again, properly read the thread: Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation So you're saying that it will actually work exactly the way CCP is hoping to. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:08:00 - [240] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Tippia And what effect is that? Again, properly read the thread: Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation So you're saying that it will actually work exactly the way CCP is hoping to. Do you have some reading diability ? Originally by: Julian Lynq It is not a good idea, because it will not achieve the effect the devs are hoping for. Originally by: Tippia And what effect is that?

Harkwyth Mist Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:09:00 - [241] Originally by: WhiteGhostBear Too bad this punishes new players But it doesnt punish new players AFAIK bounties remain untaxed untill you hit approx 30k .. people doing L1 missions (newbies) dont earn enough to get taxed. It only affect's people who've been playing a while, and the crying about the tax in CAS chat is already at epic levels, the patch isn't even here yet. At the end of the day, it's CCP's game, we either play by thier rules or play elsewhere, I plan to stay.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:11:00 - [242] Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2009 15:11:17 Originally by: Julian Lynq Do you have some reading diability ? So you're saying that a corp started by a player to avoid being in an NPC corp is, in fact, not a player corp? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:15:00 - [243] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2009 15:11:17 Originally by: Julian Lynq Do you have some reading diability ? So you're saying that a corp started by a player to avoid being in an NPC corp is, in fact, not a player corp? So you are saying that with player-corporation Ccp means 1 man corps, because it would be that great to have 80.000 of thoose. What Ccp obviously means when they speak of player corporations is "real" corporations, not workaround corporations.
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:18:00 - [244] Originally by: Haakelen Originally by: Furb Killer More sociable how compared to being in a corp with thousands of others? You've been in player corps (including Siigari's ). Looking through your corp history, this presumably includes experiencing what player corps of various sizes and competency do. You were also in factional warfare twice, so I'll use small words. An NPC corp is not a corp, it is a channel with wardec immunity. The pathetic little pubbie activities that are occasionally undertaken by bitter old vets (like you) notwithstanding, nothing happens in NPC corps that in any way resembles the activities in player corps, large or small. People who spend a lot of time in NPC corps are not playing Eve. People who want a single player game should play one. Or, alternatively, people who like the usual MMO experience of being in a sea of faceless, nameless drones who kill weak little NPCs all day and once and a while form ad hoc groups would probably be better served in a game that fosters that kind of lame excuse for community. The argument of 'herp derp thousands of members in NPC corps' is fallacious bull****, and everyone who says it knows it. Your hilarious deeply ingrained righteous indignation about internet spaceship injustice is the reason why you oppose anything that reinforces the player interaction that is mostly unique to Eve, and this is absolutely no exception. Johnny doesnt want to come over to your house to play and mommy cant make him come, get over it.
ShadowMaiden Amarr Divine Radiance	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:21:00 - [245] Originally by: AdmiralJohn Originally by: Andra Zeit Originally by: Doomed Predator Only lame ass carebears are ****ed off. ''Oh no, my precious isk/per hour ratio has been dented by a few percent.'' Just give me your stuff and ragequit while you're still upset. Exact. Waste ISK for nothing.. without any sense. Thats why I'm upset. How about you join a real corp and have it count for something, in that case. Pray, let us bask in the light that streams from your moral pinacle and educate us mere mortals on what exactly a "real" corp is?
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:24:00 - [246] Originally by: Julian Lynq So you are saying that with player-corporation Ccp means 1 man corps, because it would be that great to have 80.000 of thoose. What Ccp obviously means when they speak of player corporations is "real" corporations, not workaround corporations. No, I'm saying that you're reading too much into the CCP statement. Eris is simply saying that they want to nudge people away from NPC corps; you're saying that people will leave the NPC corps; you're then saying that people leaving NPC corps isn't what CCP intends when they're saying that they want to nudge people away from said corps. In short: you make no sense. Whether players join "real" corps or not (by which you somehow mean "large" corps, which is a fairly lopsided way of seeing things, imo) is thoroughly irrelevant — you are claiming that people will do what CCP wants them to do. Given how common those 1-man corps are already, you're making a huge assumption of incompetence on CCP's part if you think that they haven't considered that that will be the effect, and they have still chosen to go ahead with the plan. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:29:00 - [247] Edited by: Julian Lynq on 20/09/2009 15:28:59 Originally by: Tippia stuff I am saying ccp indentified a problem in that many people stay in npc corporations and do not join player corporations and thus do not socially interact with each other. Ccp then came up with a "solution" to the "problem". However the solution they come up with is a bad one because infact it does not solve the "problem" at all. It will not make more people join player corporations and interact with each other. and yes, when i say player-corporations, that is real corporations not 1 man zombie ones.
Neesa Corrinne Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:33:00 - [248] All CCP needs to do in order to fix the 100,000 1 man player corps that would soon rise up after this change is: 1) 10 Players must join a new corporation within 48 hours of it forming for it to remain a viable corporation or it will dissolve. 2) Those first 10 players must be active training accounts. This way, the new corporations won't simply be 10 alts and a mission runner, and the EVE universe also won't suddenly be flooded with thousands of new corps. A good side effect of this is that all of those "holder" alts that have been holding famous corp names for a couple years now will dissolve too, leaving those names open to be reused. Lastly, The next patch is shaping up to be one of the best patches in EVE since the Trinity patch gave us shiny new graphics. ---------------------------------
BlondieBC Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Missions	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:35:00 - [249] Tax should be on sliding scale. 11% first month, 16% second, 21% third. NPC should tax more like 0.0 corps.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:35:00 - [250] LOL @ CCP! Missioners, relax, this amounts to basically a 3.5% to 5% total tax, no big deal at all. This change will not effect: Scouting Alts... 0.0 money making alts... Neutral RR alts... Miners... Traders... Missioners... ??! Wait, whut?! As has been pointed out - this amounts to a total of about 3.5% to 5% change in total mission income. Missioners, if you tweak your settings, you can probably become 3.5 to 5% more effective unless your already in a dam Golem... So don't sweat the small stuff... For anyone that thinks this is suddenly going to empty NPC corps? It won't. Anyone that wants to be in a player corp already is, or they get there quickly. For those undecided, this does nothing whatsoever... Corps have tax too... and the difference between NPC corps 11% tax is just 1 to 10% (some may tax more or less... vOv) CCP wants more people in Player Corps? /beginsarcasm Well isn't that just ducky. I feel all warm and fuzzy... /endsarcasm.. If Player Corps and Alliances did more active recruiting, they could probably pull a few people out of the NPC corps, but I doubt many... Because they choose not to play with others (for whatever reason). War-decs? Anyone with .0001 of a brain can figure out how to avoid wardecs... About the absolute only person this is going to have an effect on is the person who HATES any tax on income, will make a small (one man) corp to mission in, and THEN talks smack in local... Anyone else will usually just fly under the radar, and never undock... Last (but not least) go to just about any decent out of game database of corporations. Sort by members... How many corps are there less than 5? TONS... and the vast majority never get wardec'd now, so why would they get dec'd in the future? This is just a silly, annoying change that will, in the end, amount to nothing... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö

Cassiopeia Draco	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:39:00 - [251] Anyone want popcorn. The Assumptions being made here : 1) Every player in an NPC corp leaves and forms a one man band 2) People wont be happy to pay 11% to avoid war decs 3) People wont group together to form corps Either way all its doing is slightly turning down the isk flow into player wallets.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:40:00 - [252] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne All CCP needs to do in order to fix the 100,000 1 man player corps that would soon rise up after this change is: 1) 10 Players must join a new corporation within 48 hours of it forming for it to remain a viable corporation or it will dissolve. 2) Those first 10 players must be active training accounts. This way, the new corporations won't simply be 10 alts and a mission runner, and the EVE universe also won't suddenly be flooded with thousands of new corps. A good side effect of this is that all of those "holder" alts that have been holding famous corp names for a couple years now will dissolve too, leaving those names open to be reused. Lastly, The next patch is shaping up to be one of the best patches in EVE since the Trinity patch gave us shiny new graphics. If they do that it will still not achieve their stated goal of getting more people into player corporations. ppl go into player corporations for the interaction with other players, not for avoiding taxes. thoose that do not want to socially interact with other players still won¦t do that. in the case they counter 1man corporations, theese people will stay in the npc corporations anyway and pay the tax. GOAL NOT ACHIEVED. Even worse there is a not very small chance of quite a bunch of people acutally quitting the game in that case too. So Again: solution that does not solve the problem and have no positive effect besides maybe reducing lag because of players quitting.
zombiedeadhead Minmatar In Your Head	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:50:00 - [253] Imo, the idea that chars in NPC corps will leave and form 1 man corps is just ridiculous.
Andra Zeit	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:52:00 - [254] Originally by: Julian Lynq I am saying ccp indentified a problem in that many people stay in npc corporations and do not join player corporations and thus do not socially interact with each other. So.. they see a problem. But the reason for the problem they won't see. If they wanna solve the problem, pressing player with a tax into player corps, its not a good idea.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:52:00 - [255] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 20/09/2009 15:56:01 I can see that there are a big quantity of no-brain PVP players who don't still skill Human Psychology at Level 1 or more, and so still ask that everyone play the way than THEY want. Adapt or die. There are people who refuse PVP or work... Sorry have a Corp Life, they are free to do it without have to be punished by some taxes. This tax is just plainly stupid and will NOT motivate people to leave NPC Corps. Adapt to this fact and skill Human Psychology, or leave the game. Period, end of story. People like them just tired normal players, and nearly destroy my alliance. Hopefully, they left us, now we have a better fleet participation. _______ Local is fine, period. CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ?
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:54:00 - [256] Originally by: zombiedeadhead Imo, the idea that chars in NPC corps will leave and form 1 man corps is just ridiculous. Especially to avoid a 3% decrease in their mission income. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:56:00 - [257] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: zombiedeadhead Imo, the idea that chars in NPC corps will leave and form 1 man corps is just ridiculous. Especially to avoid a 3% decrease in their mission income. And how ridiculous the idea that they'd even leave npc corps and join real player corps because of a 3% decreaase in income. THANK YOU. idea does not achieve the goal stated = idea is a bad one. solution that doesnt solve the problem.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 15:58:00 - [258] Originally by: Julian Lynq And how ridiculous the idea that they'd even leave npc corps and join real player corps because of a 3% decreaase in income. THANK YOU. idea does not achieve the goal stated = idea is a bad one. solution that doesnt solve the problem. So now you're saying that people won't leave?! Make up you mind! ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:02:00 - [259] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Julian Lynq And how ridiculous the idea that they'd even leave npc corps and join real player corps because of a 3% decreaase in income. THANK YOU. idea does not achieve the goal stated = idea is a bad one. solution that doesnt solve the problem. So now you're saying that people won't leave?! Make up you mind! i explained myself well in the above posts. i am not gonna play such forum games with you.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:05:00 - [260] Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2009 16:05:29 Originally by: Julian Lynq i explained myself well in the above posts. i am not gonna play such forum games with you. You still haven't explained how they'll fail to "encourage" people towards PC corps — you know, the stated goal. edit: wrong word. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:08:00 - [261] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2009 16:06:36 Originally by: Julian Lynq i explained myself well in the above posts. i am not gonna play such forum games with you. You still haven't explained how they'll fail to "encourage" people to join PC corps ù you know, the stated goal. edit: wrong word. you explained it yourself when you said its ridicoluos idea that people would leave npc corporations because of a 3% lower income.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:09:00 - [262] Originally by: Julian Lynq you explained it yourself when you said its ridicoluos idea that people would leave npc corporations because of a 3% lower income. No, that merely explains why there won't be the deluge of 1-man corps you were talking about earlier. The encouragement is still there. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:12:00 - [263] Originally by: zombiedeadhead Imo, the idea that chars in NPC corps will leave and form 1 man corps is just ridiculous. This is the natural decision for someone who'd currently playing solo - it's the first thing I thought of when I saw this stupid announcement. It will reduce my interaction with other players (NPC Corp chat), but the alternative is 11% more grinding, which is worse. CCP can't force me into a player Corp before I'm ready to look for one. I certainly resent being pressured though.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:13:00 - [264] Originally by: Tippia this is going no where. I will stick to discussing this in the other thread. if you want this discussion going on anyway, do this: 1) goto the previous page and read it all again up to this post. 2) post your stuff again 3) goto step 1) You can repeat that as often as you like before you get bored eventually.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:15:00 - [265] Originally by: Julian Lynq this is going no where. I will stick to discussing this in the other thread. if you want this discussion going on anyway, do this: …or you could just explain why this doesn't work as way of encouraging people to join PC corps. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:15:00 - [266] Originally by: Cassiopeia Draco Anyone want popcorn. The Assumptions being made here : 1) Every player in an NPC corp leaves and forms a one man band 2) People wont be happy to pay 11% to avoid war decs 3) People wont group together to form corps Either way all its doing is slightly turning down the isk flow into player wallets. Your #3 I'm not following. People in NPC corps aren't leaving to form Corps... Again, if Player Corps and Alliances did a better job of recruiting new players - Meh, its not going to make any difference, because (as I said before) players who want to be in corps are (or find them) and those who don't, won't. The only people who can actually influence this equation, won't, because of their attitudes. ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Mikayla Grey Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:20:00 - [267] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2009 16:06:36 Originally by: Julian Lynq i explained myself well in the above posts. i am not gonna play such forum games with you. You still haven't explained how they'll fail to "encourage" people to join PC corps — you know, the stated goal. edit: wrong word. you explained it yourself when you said its ridicoluos idea that people would leave npc corporations because of a 3% lower income. Good you agree the tax should be higher.
Cre'tal Eminent Disdain	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:51:00 - [268] Originally by: Julian Lynq Edited by: Julian Lynq on 20/09/2009 14:41:51 Originally by: Cre'tal Ah thank you. It's been a long while since I've been in an NPC corp, and I was always under the assumption that it was a 10% tax. Well, then, good show, CCP. Adding a NPC tax is a great idea AFAIC. If you¦d take the time to properly read the thread you¦d maybe notice why actually it¦s not such a great idea. By the way is there a reason you post in all green text ? Apparently my time is more valuable than yours. Also, the color green was deliberately chosen because it is scientifically proven to annoy noobs and carebears. If you'd taken the time to properly read through all of my past posts, maybe you'd already know that.
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:53:00 - [269] Time to move back into my 2-man corp, I suppose.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.20 17:49:00 - [270] Edited by: Ukucia on 20/09/2009 17:49:56 Originally by: Malcanis There may be as many people dedicated to shooting noob corps as you say. Personally I think it sounds like a pretty dull way to play the game You need to stop thinking that the way you use wardecs is remotely close to common. There's 1 of you. Goonswarm just wardec'ed an empire research alliance. You've got a lot of people to kill to "balance the scales" if you think wardecs are not mostly used for griefing. Quote: And for the love of god, stop stereotyping everyone who disagrees with you. That's just plain trolling, or at best making yourself look very silly. Pot, meet kettle.

Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.20 17:54:00 - [271] Originally by: Ukucia Pot, meet kettle. NO U! Link to examples, plx
wallenbergaren	Posted - 2009.09.20 18:04:00 - [272] So many tears of something that will have such small impact
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.20 18:16:00 - [273] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne All CCP needs to do in order to fix the 100,000 1 man player corps that would soon rise up after this change is: 1) 10 Players must join a new corporation within 48 hours of it forming for it to remain a viable corporation or it will dissolve. 2) Those first 10 players must be active training accounts. This way, the new corporations won't simply be 10 alts and a mission runner, and the EVE universe also won't suddenly be flooded with thousands of new corps. A good side effect of this is that all of those "holder" alts that have been holding famous corp names for a couple years now will dissolve too, leaving those names open to be reused. Lastly, The next patch is shaping up to be one of the best patches in EVE since the Trinity patch gave us shiny new graphics. Better solution: all CCP (or you folks desperate for soft targets) has to do is come up with a carrot instead of a stick.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.20 18:17:00 - [274] Btw i guess for me it would mean closer to 8% or somewhere arround that. Most missions are just not worth salvaging, even when i make wreck balls.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.20 18:21:00 - [275] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ukucia Pot, meet kettle. NO U! Link to examples, plx I'm not going to bother linking every single one of your posts in this thread, where you assume: 1) I can't PvP 2) I'm not playing EvE the "right" way. 3) I'm some lame anti-social ****. Also missing from this 'debate' is the fact that each of the NPC corps have a different flavor, so the social experience in each corp is different. For example, The Scope is great for chatting and has virtual no spam. Alestra is full of prepubescent freaks obsessed with sticking their ** in something, anything. But at least there's no spam. IMO while CCP's tinkering with NPC corps, they should let us switch NPC corps instead of falling into a particular corp based on race & bloodline...but that would encourage us to play the wrong way in the sandbox, now wouldn't it?
Junko Togawa Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.20 18:24:00 - [276] Interesting thought: If CCP were to double all wardec fees, would this generate more or less tears than the addition of the NPC Corp tax? My guess is more, because of the 'WAAAAUGH CAREBEARS ARE TAKING OVER EVE' forumblob that would result. Just look at the epic scanner whines.
Future Mutant Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.09.20 18:39:00 - [277] Confirming im playing eve wrong- I should join a corp and be their slave until they kick me. I should die repeatedly for no gain even though i have no interest in pvp. My mission income is obviously too much- though the income some ppl enjoy from moon mining, though magnitudes higher then missioning, is obviously not high enough. Your stuff iz mine through actions
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.20 18:44:00 - [278] Originally by: Future Mutant Confirming im playing eve wrong- I should join a corp and be their slave until they kick me. I should die repeatedly for no gain Well yes, you are Minmatar, after all.
mechtech Entropy Industries	Posted - 2009.09.20 20:06:00 - [279] I like this tax. It's 1 more reason to get new players out into a real corp so they can enjoy the game. (most new players that quit do so because they never got into a corp, and essentially had no social interaction)
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.09.20 20:53:00 - [280] While I certainly oppose any move to force people to leave NPC corps, I like the idea of making changes to the way NPC corps operate to remove the incentives for staying in them. The 'corp tax' is part of the solution, but there needs to be more. * Corp tax. Done. * RoE. Members of NPC corps should be entirely banned from commiting aggressive acts by their NPC corp leadership. This means no can theft, no attacks in low sec, no suicide attacks in high sec, etc. Whether this would impact nullsec also is up for debate. Note that this only covers initiating aggression; members of NPC corps would be welcome to respond to aggressive acts against themselves as normal. * Salvage. Members of NPC corps only have salvage rights for ships they destroyed, or that their gang destroyed. No more ninja-salvagers in NPC corps. * Trade. Members of NPC corps are limited in the number of buy/sell orders or contracts they may have at any one time. Perhaps 5-10 market orders and 3 contracts. * Standings. Members of NPC corps are treated as having standings no greater than +0 for purposes of refine tax at NPC stations, and also for calculating effective agent quality (though not for purposes of access to agents). This would affect mining, loot refine, mission payments, and loyalty point awards. None of these changes would greatly impact a new player working on building basic skills, nor would it impact most pilots who were in an NPC corp temporarily. They would significantly impact the ability of people who abuse NPC corp status to gain permanent immunity to wardecs for missions-running, market manipulation, mining, ore theft, ninja-salvaging, piracy, or contract scamming. They also provide a basic reduction (not an extreme reduction) in profitability of all forms of income generation, not just one or two. -- Becq Starforged The Flame of Freedom Burns On!

Zartanic	Posted - 2009.09.20 21:07:00 - [281] Edited by: Zartanic on 20/09/2009 21:12:17 So many posters here fall for the same trap, which CCP does as well, of introducing a negative mechanic to encourage behaviour rather than a positive. This is a game, not real life, so anything that adds to the annoyance factor simply increases a player's odds of playing something else. It never works the way its intended as if player leave NPC corps over the tax its for the wrong reason and they will simply quit or go back to the NPC corp and pay the tax. A few may be encouraged to PVP but that will be a tiny amount. If players want to PVP they need a REASON to beyond being dumb cannon fodder or fish in a barrel. There are too many lazy mechanics popping up in this game recently. There are also too many players who seriously thinks others should play the game for their entertainment and how it suits them. Reminds me of little children who's whole world revolves around them. Tough luck, not all of us are as committed and many of us play other games too and have plenty of activities to be getting on with, all of which compete with our time. CCP please start thinking a bit smarter about what you do, the scanning change is another example of an easy fix which will not do anything positive at all. Either ban NPC corp or give players a damn good reason to leave them. Silly taxes do nothing except annoy.
Emeline Cabernet Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.20 21:25:00 - [282] I guess its a start... should be alot more. 25-30% at least. Also after 3months or so npc corp players should be moved to npc you can war dec or at least shot in fw.
PostWithYourAlt	Posted - 2009.09.20 21:34:00 - [283] Originally by: Emeline Cabernet I guess its a start... should be alot more. 25-30% at least. Also after 3months or so npc corp players should be moved to npc you can war dec or at least shot in fw. and automaticly transfered into morsus mihi space with a red blinking beacon in overview and throwing a message to all of morsus mihi members saying "defensless target #234239 now waiting for you in system x. For your convinience we have allready scrabled and webbed him." ?
Arec Bardwin	Posted - 2009.09.20 21:35:00 - [284] Originally by: Zartanic So many posters here fall for the same trap, which CCP does as well, of introducing a negative mechanic to encourage behaviour rather than a positive. This is a game, not real life, so anything that adds to the annoyance factor simply increases a player's odds of playing something else. It never works the way its intended as if player leave NPC corps over the tax its for the wrong reason and they will simply quit or go back to the NPC corp and pay the tax. A few may be encouraged to PVP but that will be a tiny amount. If players want to PVP they need a REASON to beyond being dumb cannon fodder or fish in a barrel. There are too many lazy mechanics popping up in this game recently. There are also too many players who seriously thinks others should play the game for their entertainment and how it suits them. Reminds me of little children who's whole world revolves around them. Tough luck, not all of us are as committed and many of us play other games too and have plenty of activities to be getting on with, all of which compete with our time. CCP please start thinking a bit smarter about what you do, the scanning change is another example of an easy fix which will not do anything positive at all. Either ban NPC corp or give players a damn good reason to leave them. Silly taxes do nothing except annoy. I have to agree with this. Good post!
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.20 21:36:00 - [285] Originally by: Zartanic So many posters here fall for the same trap, which CCP does as well, of introducing a negative mechanic to encourage behaviour rather than a positive. No, what it does is open up the possibility for a positive measure when there previously was none: now, corps can recruit on the basis of having low taxes — something that was previously impossible. Quote: It never works the way its intended as if player leave NPC corps over the tax its for the wrong reason and they will simply quit or go back to the NPC corp and pay the tax. Good. Then they've learned a lesson and that's a positive thing. Quote: There are too many lazy mechanics popping up in this game recently. How is something that has been around since forever suddenly a "lazy mechanic" that "pops up recently"? Quote: give players a damn good reason to leave them. There are plenty of reasons to leave an NPC corp, but the problem is that most of them are aimed at industrialists. This measure is aimed at mission runners, or more accurately at giving PC corps a point of leverage towards convincing these players to join. Quote: Silly taxes do nothing except annoy. How? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Emeline Cabernet Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.20 21:42:00 - [286] Originally by: PostWithYourAlt Originally by: Emeline Cabernet I guess its a start... should be alot more. 25-30% at least. Also after 3months or so npc corp players should be moved to npc you can war dec or at least shot in fw. and automaticly transfered into morsus mihi space with a red blinking beacon in overview and throwing a message to all of morsus mihi members saying "defensless target #234239 now waiting for you in system x. For your convinience we have allready scrabled and webbed him." ? Oh yeah you totally got me.
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.09.20 22:18:00 - [287] Edited by: Zartanic on 20/09/2009 22:19:57 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Zartanic So many posters here fall for the same trap, which CCP does as well, of introducing a negative mechanic to encourage behaviour rather than a positive. No, what it does is open up the possibility for a positive measure when there previously was none: now, corps can recruit on the basis of having low taxes ù something that was previously impossible. Quote: It never works the way its intended as if player leave NPC corps over the tax its for the wrong reason and they will simply quit or go back to the NPC corp and pay the tax. Good. Then they've learned a lesson and that's a positive thing. Quote: There are too many lazy mechanics popping up in this game recently. How is something that has been around since forever suddenly a "lazy mechanic" that "pops up recently"? Quote: give players a damn good reason to leave them. There are plenty of reasons to leave an NPC corp, but the problem is that most of them are aimed at industrialists. This measure is aimed at mission runners, or more accurately at giving PC corps a point of leverage towards convincing these players to join. Quote: Silly taxes do nothing except annoy. How? I'll sum it up for you: You have two ways to motivate people. 1. Carrot 2. Stick In real life we have the police, the government, anyone who feels like it, using the stick as and when they like as they can, we can't switch life off. So we put up with it. In a game its the opposite, we can switch off. And for some of us that's easy to do. So if a mechanic is introduced that punishes rather than encourages its will hurt the game. If players don't want PVE or solo players then fine, but if they like their subs, which I assume CCP do, then they should try and encourage and not detract from game play. Its very easy to make a stick, scanning changes are another recent example, encouraging takes a lot of thought and effort. Its lazy putting in an arbitrary 11% tax that will be easily avoided anyway...as it was not thought through properly.
IVeige	Posted - 2009.09.20 22:21:00 - [288] didn't have enough one player corp anyway
kai freeborn	Posted - 2009.09.20 22:26:00 - [289] wonder how long till corp fees get adjusted to be more inline with other expenses ))))
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.20 22:28:00 - [290] Edited by: Kerfira on 20/09/2009 22:29:16 Originally by: Zartanic I'll sum it up for you: You have two ways to motivate people. 1. Carrot 2. Stick In real life we have the police, the government, anyone who feels like it, using the stick as as when they like as they can, we can't switch life off. So we put up with it. In a game its the opposite, we can switch off. And for some of us that's easy to do. So if a mechanic is introduced that punishes rather than encourages its will hurt the game. If players don't want PVE or solo players then fine, but if they like their subs, which I assume CCP do, then they should try and encourage and not detract from game play. Its very easy to make a stick, scanning changes are another recent example, encouraging takes a lot of thought and effort. Its lazy putting in an arbitrary 11% tax that will be easily avoided anyway...as it was not thought through properly. Zartanic hits this one right on the spot.... Not only is the 11% easily avoided. That avoidance (1-man corp) will also deprive the people using it of the social interaction they already DO have in their corp. Their corp just happens to be an NPC corp, without thieving leaders, corp politics, unwanted PvP, etc. Why an MMO company chooses to punish people OUT of what social interaction they have is something I REALLY can't see the logic in.... This seem to be aimed at mission running alts, but they'll just as happily create a 1-man corp and go on their business. The collateral damage will be people who LIKE the NPC corp atmosphere as it suits their casual way of playing.... As Zartanic implies, this seem to be yet another spur-of-the-moment knee-jerk change by CCP, without considering pros/cons or consequences for different player types.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

Mr. Orange Gallente Band of Freelancers	Posted - 2009.09.20 22:37:00 - [291] Wow! A WHOLE 11%... Wake me up when you're really serious about this issue CCP. Start with 50% ffs, this will motivate people to get into player corps... The Pusher Man
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.20 22:55:00 - [292] Originally by: Mr. Orange Wow! A WHOLE 11%... Wake me up when you're really serious about this issue CCP. Start with 50% ffs, this will motivate people to get into player corps... Issue? Where? If CCP was "serious" about this "issue", they'd use a carrot. There's no incentive for me, currently, to join a player corp. In fact, it could pretty much only be detrimental. The only difference between me in an NPC corp and me in my own 1-player corp is the ability to wardec. Is the inability to wardec highsec carebears really such an "issue" to you? I don't like the 0.0 playstyle so I reside in empire instead. And yes, I'm a pvp player.
Obsidian Hawk RONA Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.20 23:05:00 - [293] WAIT WAIT STOP THE PRESSES I HAVE A GREAT IDEA!!! Players can make their own 1 man corp or 2 man corp and set the tax to 0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 OMG. WIN! I R genius cat!!! -------------------------- WTB a sig, or moderation of my sig by all the hot CCP girls.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2009.09.20 23:23:00 - [294] If you, CCP, really wants to get soloish and newer players into player corps, then redo the entire corp security thing. Lots of corps don't want to bother with newer players or even vets because of all the spies, scammers, corp thieves and meta game stuff that goes on. The corps need better reasons too, right now it is a chore. Getting a new player up to speed can be an effort as it is, much less having to worry about them messing something up, even if they are not a spy or meta gaming A-hat. One of the core things of Eve is social interaction, it's one of the things you, CCP, always promote. But trust should not be forced upon either party, people trust others because they want to, not because they have to. When "trust" is forced through functionality, or the lack of, then it creates suspicion and resentment. This is counter to wanting to create bonds between people. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
zombiedeadhead Minmatar In Your Head	Posted - 2009.09.20 23:38:00 - [295] Originally by: Obsidian Hawk WAIT WAIT STOP THE PRESSES I HAVE A GREAT IDEA!!! Players can make their own 1 man corp or 2 man corp and set the tax to 0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 OMG. WIN! I R genius cat!!! C'mon, only **ers, ers, s and s would do something so **ing lame.
Yuna Lily	Posted - 2009.09.20 23:48:00 - [296] "It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hasn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me) It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average. " Too all CCP employees not married! If I was a real female you would get laid for free on patch day for this! You also forgot taxes for mining so macroers can't just strip mine belts.
Yuna Lily	Posted - 2009.09.20 23:55:00 - [297] Ok I went a little overboard with this...
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:24:00 - [298] Edited by: Ukucia on 21/09/2009 00:24:52 Originally by: Becq Starforged While I certainly oppose any move to force people to leave NPC corps, I like the idea of making changes to the way NPC corps operate to remove the incentives for staying in them. The 'corp tax' is part of the solution, but there needs to be more. * Corp tax. Done. * RoE. Members of NPC corps should be entirely banned from commiting aggressive acts by their NPC corp leadership. This means no can theft, no attacks in low sec, no suicide attacks in high sec, etc. Whether this would impact nullsec also is up for debate. Note that this only covers initiating aggression; members of NPC corps would be welcome to respond to aggressive acts against themselves as normal. * Salvage. Members of NPC corps only have salvage rights for ships they destroyed, or that their gang destroyed. No more ninja-salvagers in NPC corps. * Trade. Members of NPC corps are limited in the number of buy/sell orders or contracts they may have at any one time. Perhaps 5-10 market orders and 3 contracts. * Standings. Members of NPC corps are treated as having standings no greater than +0 for purposes of refine tax at NPC stations, and also for calculating effective agent quality (though not for purposes of access to agents). This would affect mining, loot refine, mission payments, and loyalty point awards. None of these changes would greatly impact a new player working on building basic skills, nor would it impact most pilots who were in an NPC corp temporarily. They would significantly impact the ability of people who abuse NPC corp status to gain permanent immunity to wardecs for missions-running, market manipulation, mining, ore theft, ninja-salvaging, piracy, or contract scamming. They also provide a basic reduction (not an extreme reduction) in profitability of all forms of income generation, not just one or two. Sure. However, I'm convinced that the people playing in 0.0 are also playing the game wrong. So here's the changes that CCP should implement: * Ammo tax. Every shot fired costs 100,000 ISK. This is to prevent all the people gearing up their ships to perma-tank rats and just plinking away at them. Now players will be encouraged to rat in groups, as was intended. * Deportation. As the people who have traveled to 0.0 have abandoned the empire factions, the empire factions have decided to ban re-entry into empire space. Violators will simply explode as they pass into 0.1 space. This ban is shared among all accounts registered to the same email address or home address. Home addresses will now be verified by CCP. * Trade. There isn't enough of a vibrant market in 0.0, so empire navies will now be confiscating everything in the cargoholds of ships leaving empire space. This will encourage players in 0.0 to recruit crafters. [/sarcasm] Just because you play the game differently, that doesn't give you the right to tell others how to play the game. The entire point of a sandbox game is to let the players come up with their own playstyles.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:26:00 - [299] Originally by: Gunner Dark Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae Originally by: In4r4 I hope this does nudge people into player corps , this character is a trading alt , and NPC corp chat is full of long term NPC corp mission runners telling everyone who will listen not to join a player corp, because they will either lose all their money to a greedy CEO or die every day without fail. They will, they all will create one man corporation and set tax at zero. That will cost 1.6 million ISK to him. Now wardec is 50 million isk. When wardec comes, the mission runner closes the corporation and wardec gone. And pvp'ers lost 50 million and mission runner 1.6 million. Now the mission runner can make a new corporation straight away, wich costs him that 1.6 million isk again. But they have to wait 24 hour period with new wardec. There will be no tears, just god damn long employment lists. You are still patting yourself on the back for your "unique idea " Lotus Sutra ? If that was actually me, I would have said yes, but it's not, so no. You do fail at being able to identify someone by their typing styles. Also.. why do you have such a hard on for me? Do you dislike that I explained to everyone exactly how easy it will be to cost pirate griefers isk, at virtually no cost to themselves? Did that make you mad so now you have to bring my name into a post that isn't even mine and try and accuse me of being someone different? I don't need to hide behind another alt to post. I posted what I wanted to and if you or anyone else doesn't like it you know where you can go. It doesn't change anything though. I pointed out and illustrated exactly how easy it is going to be for mission runners to gank the gankers wallets and even if others mentioned variations on what I said (opening and closing corps, not opening many 1 man corps and hopping around them as needed), It changes nothing. If this goes live, then you can expect me to create 18 1 man corps and I will hop my alts around them as needed to not be inconvenienced by little girls on a perpetual period looking to make others lives in an internet spaceships game miserable. I will enjoy all the emorage and tears from people just like you who think they are smart when they are really not very smart at all. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:31:00 - [300] There should be no tax for players under 5 million SP - unless you are going to stop the silly war decs on corps of noob players. Wherever you went - Here you are.

Souvera Corvus SPORADIC MOVEMENT Cult of War	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:55:00 - [301] Edited by: Souvera Corvus on 21/09/2009 00:57:33 Originally by: annoing Its not so much the tax, but I have begun to believe that CCP Eris Discordia and ccp are ***** idiots. Go on ccp, tell me how this is a great big sandbox and we can play the game in any way we please .... as long as you are part of a player owned corp that is. Sure, the tax will hurt the alts who npc but big **** deal about that. You shouldnt try to force the player base into something they may not want to do, and making them join an player corp is just that. Everyone wants something different from this game, everyone. Some want to mine, some want to pvp, some want to be industrialists etc ... so who are you to tell them how to play this game? You, the player, who thinks you should force everyone to play it your way should go and sucks a donkeys , its got ** all to do with you. Its their dollar that pays for their game. You dont like how they spend it or the way they play it? Fine, ***** and go play WoW or more likely Runescape like the little spolit ey kids that you are. Get this straight, I dont object to the tax, I object to all you little tossers telling all the others how to play this game. ***** idiots the lot of you. Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist Quoting this bloke, because he happens to be right. A bit angry but right nevertheless. Zartanic is also right and not quite as angry.
Rellik B00n Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2009.09.21 01:18:00 - [302] Originally by: Malcanis OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP. Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his? whilst I disagree with some of Malcs lines of thought I cannot fault this at all. Quoted so I can find it easier + LDS @ Bclnc
Khalen Veriz	Posted - 2009.09.21 01:25:00 - [303] Originally by: Adunh Slavy If you, CCP, really wants to get soloish and newer players into player corps, then redo the entire corp security thing. Lots of corps don't want to bother with newer players or even vets because of all the spies, scammers, corp thieves and meta game stuff that goes on. The corps need better reasons too, right now it is a chore. Getting a new player up to speed can be an effort as it is, much less having to worry about them messing something up, even if they are not a spy or meta gaming A-hat. One of the core things of Eve is social interaction, it's one of the things you, CCP, always promote. But trust should not be forced upon either party, people trust others because they want to, not because they have to. When "trust" is forced through functionality, or the lack of, then it creates suspicion and resentment. This is counter to wanting to create bonds between people. This is it right here, problem is any corp worth joining requires a set amount of SP that usually ='s 2 months game play, I've tried joining corps that didn't have this requirement and it was an utter joke... btw I could care less about the tax, it won't change the above fact at all.
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.21 02:02:00 - [304] Originally by: annoing Edited by: annoing on 19/09/2009 22:20:02 Actually ive changed my mind. I DO object to the tax for all the reasons I gave above. CCP are tossers for trying to 'nudge' npc'ers into a corp. Hey heres a thought... maybe they dont want to join a player owned corp? Maybe they dont want to train the skills nescessary to make a corp (yeah i know, anyone can make a corp but if you want you npc friends to join you've got to get the skills then). Maybe they want to do the very thing that you advertised.... play in this great big sandbox in any way they please. Again,as for them making themselves a little one man corp .. maybe they like the chat in npc corp chat? maybe thats where their friends are? Maybe their friends might like to be ratters or miners while they might be industrialists or marketeers? Yeah I know, its only 11% ... but that can be alot when you're trying to make isk to get that new ship or new module when you first start. If you mine and have sell the minerals, 11% will make a huge dent in your time/profit margins. All I see this doing is making the casual Eve gamer stop paying their subs, as they can no longer be bothered to make the grind to buy the shiney epeen stuff which they seem to think the rest of us have. CCP? this idea, the worst one you've had in quite a while. _____________________________ Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
Nykky Syxx	Posted - 2009.09.21 02:16:00 - [305] Originally by: annoing Actually ive changed my mind. I DO object to the tax for all the reasons I gave above. CCP are tossers for trying to 'nudge' npc'ers into a corp. Hey heres a thought... maybe they dont want to join a player owned corp? Maybe they dont want to train the skills nescessary to make a corp (yeah i know, anyone can make a corp but if you want you npc friends to join you've got to get the skills then). Maybe they want to do the very thing that you advertised.... play in this great big sandbox in any way they please. Again,as for them making themselves a little one man corp .. maybe they like the chat in npc corp chat? maybe thats where their friends are? Maybe their friends might like to be ratters or miners while they might be industrialists or marketeers? Yeah I know, its only 11% ... but that can be alot when you're trying to make isk to get that new ship or new module when you first start. If you mine and have sell the minerals, 11% will make a huge dent in your time/profit margins. All I see this doing is making the casual Eve gamer stop paying their subs, as they can no longer be bothered to make the grind to buy the shiney epeen stuff which they seem to think the rest of us have. CCP? this idea, the worst one you've had in quite a while. Nice troll bro But seriously now, 11% is nothing. Frankly, it should go up every month you're in an NPC corp after say, oooh, the first 6 months. After that, 5% more per month. Why? Simple, you pay for protection. That 4yr old NPC corp mission runner with a deadspace-fitted Golem should be paying a premium to not have his ass suicide ganked.
Kiva Aharan	Posted - 2009.09.21 02:54:00 - [306] Meh. Ultimately the economy will probably adjust and it won't mean anything in the long run except maybe making miners richer.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 03:00:00 - [307] Originally by: Nykky Syxx But seriously now, 11% is nothing. Frankly, it should go up every month you're in an NPC corp after say, oooh, the first 6 months. After that, 5% more per month. Why? Simple, you pay for protection. That 4yr old NPC corp mission runner with a deadspace-fitted Golem should be paying a premium to not have his ass suicide ganked. Methinks we should be cautious before taking advice from someone who doesn't understand what a "suicide gank" is.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm THE KLINGONS	Posted - 2009.09.21 04:09:00 - [308] CCP. just when i thought you couldn't get any dumber... you go and do this, AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF! any newb corp nerf is a good nerf. should nerf them more imo ---------- Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy mother*****r
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 04:25:00 - [309] Edited by: Tippia on 21/09/2009 04:35:41 Originally by: Zartanic You have two ways to motivate people. 1. Carrot 2. Stick …and the problem is that there was no room for a carrot because the NPC corps already had a patch of their own. This (very very tiny) change gives corps a carrot that can be used to entice NPC-corp mission runners. Originally by: Kerfira Not only is the 11% easily avoided. That avoidance (1-man corp) will also deprive the people using it of the social interaction they already DO have in their corp. […] Why an MMO company chooses to punish people OUT of what social interaction they have is something I REALLY can't see the logic in. TBH, if someone leaves and starts his own corp to avoid such a minuscule tax, I have to question the assumption that they were at all interested in those social aspects to begin with. As such, I don't see how this will deprive anyone of anything: those who will leave are not the ones who laugh it up in corp chat anyway. The change in social interaction will be roughly nil. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.21 04:42:00 - [310] Originally by: Tippia TBH, if someone leaves and starts his own corp to avoid such a minuscule tax, I have to question the assumption that they were at all interested in those social aspects to begin with. As such, I don't see how this will deprive anyone of anything: those who will leave are not the ones who laugh it up in corp chat anyway. The change in social interaction will be roughly nil. Uh, no. I enjoy playing eve with a corp, chatting with fellas, being social etc. But being in a player corp won't help my playstyle at all - only hinder it. The assumption that everyone who creates their own 1-man corp to avoid this tax are anti-social is complete nonsense. It all basically boils down to being war-dec'ed in your 1-man corp vs not in your NPC corp. Which I could care less about, really. The "OMG CAREBEAR TEARS LOLOLOLOL" posts are getting out of hand. Everyone just jump on the bandwagon without thinking. There are social people in NPC corps, you're just choosing not to recognize them. Blind ignorance.

Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 04:58:00 - [311] Originally by: AstroPhobic Uh, no. I enjoy playing eve with a corp, chatting with fellas, being social etc. But being in a player corp won't help my playstyle at all - only hinder it. So why would you want to trade that for a 1-man corp? If you like those parts so much, is an 11% tax on mission rewards and bounties really going to push you over the edge and say "screw you guys — you're fun, but too expensive to hang around"? Quote: The assumption that everyone who creates their own 1-man corp to avoid this tax are anti-social is complete nonsense. I don't know… ditching the people you know to save <5% of your income sounds fairly anti-social to me. Quote: It all basically boils down to being war-dec'ed in your 1-man corp vs not in your NPC corp. Which I could care less about, really. The "OMG CAREBEAR TEARS LOLOLOLOL" posts are getting out of hand. Everyone just jump on the bandwagon without thinking. There are social people in NPC corps, you're just choosing not to recognize them. Blind ignorance. It took me almost a year to leave SAK for that very reason — I liked the social interaction in there and it took another corp with the same level of interaction and the same level of no-politics-BS for me to make the jump. Not once during that year did I hear from anyone who would have been bothered by a small tax. Repeatedly during that year, I argued that NPC corps should have taxes (although I was thinking more along the lines of 50%). I maintain now, as I did then, that the vast protection an NPC corp offers comes far too cheap. The cost was there for industrialists, now a (minuscule) cost is added for mission runners. How to deal with traders, I don't know, but they can be PvP:ed plenty as it is so none might be needed. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.21 05:02:00 - [312] I'd seriously quit this game if I didn't have anyone to talk to, I started my own little corp for a few friends and myself when a few of us left a big, well established corp that wasn't to our tastes. We can now do pretty much what we like and have a low tax rate that is slowly building up a shared kitty that we can all look at so everybody in the corp knows how much we have and what payments are made out of it for complete transparency. Now eventually we'll branch out to try different aspects of the game, but we'd like to do it at our own pace, we're all in our first 6 - 8 months of time in the game so we're building up skills, cash and knowledge of how EVE is played and we're happy. Leaving the NPC corps doesn't have to mean you start a 1 man corp, why not drag a few other malcontents out of the NPC corp with you, if you're going to leave that is, and decide your own future, take it at your own pace and build up a small group of friends that can rely on each other. It's not the end of the world and chances are in a few months after the expansion comes in I reckon quite a few people that are unhappy now may actually find they've gained something and found new aspects to the game they didn't have much reason to go discover before.
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.21 05:09:00 - [313] Originally by: Tippia So why would you want to trade that for a 1-man corp? If you like those parts so much, is an 11% tax on mission rewards and bounties really going to push you over the edge and say "screw you guys ù you're fun, but too expensive to hang around"? Indeed. The PvE in this game is terrible and therefore I want to do as little of it as possible. I dualbox my missions so I don't salvage/loot at all, and most of my ISK comes from bounties/rewards, which are taxed. I'm not going to give away 100mil out of every billion to stay in a chat channel. Quote: I don't knowà ditching the people you know to save <5% of your income sounds fairly anti-social to me. It's ditching a bunch of people I don't know. I still have 5-6 chat channels with my friends open regularly. Quote: It took me almost a year to leave SAK for that very reason ù I liked the social interaction in there and it took another corp with the same level of interaction and the same level of no-politics-BS for me to make the jump. Not once during that year did I hear from anyone who would have been bothered by a small tax. Repeatedly during that year, I argued that NPC corps should have taxes (although I was thinking more along the lines of 50%). Like I said, I have other chat channels up so it's not a very big deal. I like helping the noobs though, or sometimes laughing at the people in Brutor who think a maelstrom is a better missioner than the CNR. Most player corps have taxes that are never seen again, you always run the risk of being ganked, etc.. I'm being pushed out of the NPC corp by CCP but not into a player corp. Long story short, 0.0 is blobs + bull**, neither of which I enjoy. Quote:** I maintain now, as I did then, that the vast protection an NPC corp offers comes far too cheap. The cost was there for industrialists, now a (minuscule) cost is added for mission runners. How to deal with traders, I don't know, but they can be PvP:ed plenty as it is so none might be needed. It's less about the wardecs and "protection" than it is about just trying to get people out. Sure, they'll leave, but care to see the spike of 1-man corps patch day?
Obsidian Hawk RONA Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.21 05:13:00 - [314] EvE is like real life it makes sure that you get the 2 absolute truths. Death and Taxes -------------------------- WTB a sig, or moderation of my sig by all the hot CCP girls.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice	Posted - 2009.09.21 05:18:00 - [315] If this goes live, it would be a terrible change and severe blow to the game. Just the fact the EVE tutorial covers practically nothing about surviving/avoiding PvP or for that matter, any specific rules about it (namely, 60 second aggression countdowns) would either force newer players to take a terrible cut an income stream hit (WTF on CONCORD bills? As if player corps don't get the same blanket protection..) or are forced into a situation where they could be entirely taken advantage of. As for the super bears in the fancy ships, do you actually think you'll catch them? Do you think for a second they wouldn't make as many alt corps as possible and just corp hop the day away? Anybody who has an understanding of the mechanics will avoid any sticky situation and cruise on same as always. Don't get me wrong, I hate barriers and safeguards on PvP, but telling newer players "Sorry, you have to make 11% less if you want to be safe. What's that, you want to learn how to protect yourself from somebody with superior knowledge and equipment? Go f * off because we can't be bothered to make a tutorial or even give you a hint on how to safeguard yourself." Bad move. * Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Kithaca Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.21 05:22:00 - [316] There seems to be a camp going about 'dont touch mah isk!'. I look at it this way so perhaps people think differently (wouldn't be a first). For all the Perkone NPCer raven pilots in 0.0, it will amount to an extra 3-5mil/hr less for them (assuming 30-50mil/hr ratting). Adding that up at 23hrs/day ( minus one for downtime and of course macro's don't need sleep). 23x isklost = 69-115 million less a day. Doesn't seem like so much now does it. Say there's a hundred macro'ers. That's nearly a billion less isk a day they're taking in to sell and less for people to buy. 200 macro'ers, 2 billion, etc etc. 1000 macroers, alot of billions. Per day. Average 0.0 corp tax rate that I've experienced in my 3 years+ now is about 15%, some higher, some lower. 11% is still less than true corp tax rates, maybe some have it lower, that's their perogative. It's taking isk out of the isk-sellers wallets, which I wholly support. For new people, this isn't a problem as mentioned under 30k bounty rats, no taxes anyways. That's up to most L2's except for few harder rats. All of highsec is still not going to be taxed since I haven't seen a 30k rat other than faction spawns in a highsec system (tbh I don't look anymore). For those saying 'they'll create a corp'. AFAIK corps can't be created on trial accounts. Which means they're paying even more isk to get the skills, to socialize with people and make friends (and yes enemies too). If it's still an isk-farming corp, people will come to know about it and not take those people into their corps (employment history). Then there's also corp renewal fees etc. it's not 'forced' on you. Just means you get to look for a corp with a lower tax rate, which means it's solving two goals. That pilot is getting to socialize which is incredibly important in this game. Who you are in this game counts for ALOT, both in contacts, as well as some pretty good warstories etc. Want to make isk in empire without paying tax? Simple. Mine something. Those that are doing that aren't impacted. Those that isk-farm take a bit of a hit. Good on CCP for this one.
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.21 05:36:00 - [317] Originally by: Kithaca Simple. Mine something. Those that are doing that aren't impacted. Those that isk-farm take a bit of a hit. Good on CCP for this one. Because I choose to not participate in 0.0 blobfests and lolpolitics, I should punished for trying to make my way in empire? I don't follow your logic. Mining, highsec, hulk = 10m/hr at the very most. Missioning, highec, marauder = 50m/hr. I'm not an "isk farmer" in any sense of the word and the only hit I'm taking is social. CCP is either making me be a) poorer or b) anti-social.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 05:44:00 - [318] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Kithaca Simple. Mine something. Those that are doing that aren't impacted. Those that isk-farm take a bit of a hit. Good on CCP for this one. Because I choose to not participate in 0.0 blobfests and lolpolitics, I should punished for trying to make my way in empire? I don't follow your logic. Mining, highsec, hulk = 10m/hr at the very most. Missioning, highec, marauder = 50m/hr. I'm not an "isk farmer" in any sense of the word and the only hit I'm taking is social. CCP is either making me be a) poorer or b) anti-social. My good God, you DO realize that there are player corps operating in high sec, right?! No one is that oblivious. Your get kudos for funny value, but thats about it.
Kithaca Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.21 05:49:00 - [319] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Kithaca Simple. Mine something. Those that are doing that aren't impacted. Those that isk-farm take a bit of a hit. Good on CCP for this one. Because I choose to not participate in 0.0 blobfests and lolpolitics, I should punished for trying to make my way in empire? I don't follow your logic. Mining, highsec, hulk = 10m/hr at the very most. Missioning, highec, marauder = 50m/hr. I'm not an "isk farmer" in any sense of the word and the only hit I'm taking is social. CCP is either making me be a) poorer or b) anti-social. Plenty of small gang, 10-20 type stuff going around. Simple fact of life is that humans are social animals. It's in our nature. If you're only in the game to make isk for yourself, than well you're missing out on alot of the game tbh, alt or not. I have friends in almost every country that I can name off-hand with guys and gals alike that I'd buy a beer for and vice-versa (or a glass of milk in some cases since they don't drink). I have a place I can crash on a couch in most of those countries. It's all about networking and getting to know people. I know one guy does multi-biliion dollar deals with the business leaders of the Middle East. I know doctors, other engineers, students. Maybe I'm lucky or special, either way, i wouldn't trade some of the friendships I've made over the years. It's eye-opening to discuss the other politics of the world, how different cultures react to various news etc. if anything it allows you to 'grow' as a person. having a close group of friends in RL means good times, but it doesn't let you 'grow'. Sociology at work. We're an an impasse then. I dont see how just 'missioning' in a marauder would be 'fun' or even playing a game? Much less missing out on all the various characters in the world that you can meet and have fun with. Mining in hulk only 10mil/hour? Try alot more than that mate. Maybe it just depends on where you're selling or what you're selling your minerals at?
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.21 05:53:00 - [320] Originally by: Uronksur Suth My good God, you DO realize that there are player corps operating in high sec, right?! No one is that oblivious. Your get kudos for funny value, but thats about it. My good God, you DO realize that they have taxes too and have the ability to shoot me whenever they like, and have new recruits that can join, gank me for the lols and then leave? Perhaps my time in EVE has made me a bit sour, but "trust nobody" comes to mind. Players corps offer me NOTHING except a chat channel, the same as an NPC corp. They also average... funny that, around the same tax as the new NPC corps.

DigitalCommunist November Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.21 06:09:00 - [321] Well, thats certainly unusual. I effectively agreed with the tax, proposed to make it worse, and then suggested a highway toll on high sec capitals. And despite the high levels of butthurt in this thread, no one has bothered to flame me. I am dissappoint ;[
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 06:17:00 - [322] Originally by: AstroPhobic My good God, you DO realize that they have taxes too Not all of them. Originally by: AstroPhobic and have the ability to shoot me whenever they like, and have new recruits that can join, gank me for the lols and then leave? What? Your own corp? Then do some damn research and join a good one, not a scam. Originally by: AstroPhobic Perhaps my time in EVE has made me a bit sour, but "trust nobody" comes to mind. Players corps offer me NOTHING except a chat channel, the same as an NPC corp. They also average... funny that, around the same tax as the new NPC corps. What a depressing outlook.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.09.21 07:14:00 - [323] Well with a corp tax all that money going into CONCORD should now help them establish an investigative wing. The sort of office that will track transactions of ISK made towards known criminals and terrorists. Those doing so should lose security status. After all, if the goal is to 1. Get people out of NPC corps 2. Get people into lowsec so the gankbears don't emoragequit Therefore, it's only fair that every gankbear be forced to their their alts out of NPC corps and out of empire. And knowing the "farmer alt" trend so relied on by gankbears to fuel their gankbear habits, this would affect most of them. After all, if it's so unfair to let people play the way they want without a thing called "cost" that so many ganksters and pirates say should be priority one, it's only fair to get rid of this money-making alt thing and put in a "cost" for sending money to known terrorists and criminals. It's only fair, right?
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.09.21 07:40:00 - [324] There are some truely good corps out there, I've only been in two corps that i didnt make, the first was GEWO (Gene Works, Hey guys!!), and that was a great time, infact i stayed there for 2 years, leaving only when i work got busy and i coudnt commit. The second and most recent was The Order of Odin (Free plug for you guys!!), great bunch of guys, again the reason i left the corp was due to RL, and not being able to commit any more than 25% of my free time to the game. Maybe ive been lucky with the corps, but from what i understand a lot of corps are like this and they become friends, there are people in them that i would trust with assets that are worth billions. As for NPC corps being a great place, what a crock of sht that is at best they're full of anti-social whiners, who come up with lol fits and severely bad advice to pass on to noobs. The general advice that 'veteren' players in NPC's give are that Player corps are where you work as slaves, for the big bad CEO and directors, who get rich off your hard work, talk about mis-information. In general the 10% tax that most player corps levy is used to pay for offices, Ship replacement schemes, free mods and Ammo, running of a research PoS and others. As for where I stand, its about time NPC's where taxed, though 11% does seem a little low, personally I'd set it to about 15%. To those whining about the drop in income, bo-***ing-hoo, Adapt or Biomass yourself.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.21 07:44:00 - [325] Edited by: Kerfira on 21/09/2009 07:44:43 Originally by: Kithaca For all the Perkone NPCer raven pilots in 0.0, it will amount to an extra 3-5mil/hr less for them (assuming 30-50mil/hr ratting). And you really think they'll not switch in a heartbeat to a 'player-corp' (their own of.c.)? It's not as if there's any protection in being in an NPC corp in 0.0..... Originally by: Kithaca It's taking isk out of the isk-sellers wallets, which I wholly support. Total amount of ISK-seller ISK taken: ZERO! (look above) Originally by: Kithaca For those saying 'they'll create a corp'. AFAIK corps can't be created on trial accounts. Which means they're paying even more isk to get the skills, to socialize with people and make friends (and yes enemies too). So their ISK-seller corp will let them socialise with the other people in the sweat-shop they're in? This is not going to hurt ISK farmers ONE tiny ISK, except for the initial minuscule cost of starting up a corp... 0.0 farmers will not enjoy the benefit of protection anyway, and high-sec farmers will just create a new 1-man corp if they get wardec'd. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.09.21 07:57:00 - [326] Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't corp tax rate only affect bounties and mission ISK rewards? That is to say, all your refining, manufacturing, contract fees, market buy/sell orders are corp-tax-free, aren't they? [Aussie players: join channel ANZAC]
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.09.21 08:06:00 - [327] Originally by: Mara Rinn Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't corp tax rate only affect bounties and mission ISK rewards? That is to say, all your refining, manufacturing, contract fees, market buy/sell orders are corp-tax-free, aren't they? Very true, and you only pay taxes on bounties over 30K anyway, and mission rewards over 100K, theres no tax (as of yet) applied to the Time bonus. Everything else is deviod of corp tax at the moment, Refining you are only taxed if you dont have good standings with the NPC corp where you're refining. Sell/buy orders, are taxed at a miniscule amount (1% base) which is reduced by standings, and skills.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.21 08:28:00 - [328] Originally by: Mara Rinn Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't corp tax rate only affect bounties and mission ISK rewards? That is to say, all your refining, manufacturing, contract fees, market buy/sell orders are corp-tax-free, aren't they? Correct. This is aimed specifically at NPC corp mission runners. And we know what groups that neatly describes, dont we? 0.0 mission alts ISK farmers Yeah, my sympathy for their "playstyle" is kind of limited.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.21 08:38:00 - [329] Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 21/09/2009 05:57:49 Originally by: Uronksur Suth My good God, you DO realize that there are player corps operating in high sec, right?! No one is that oblivious. Your get kudos for funny value, but thats about it. My good God, you DO realize that they have taxes too and have the ability to shoot me whenever they like, and have new recruits that can join, gank me for the lols and then leave? Perhaps my time in EVE has made me a bit sour, but "trust nobody" comes to mind. Players corps offer me NOTHING except a chat channel, the same as an NPC corp. They also average... funny that, around the same tax as the new NPC corps. jesus man you must have been in a terrible corp to have been scarred like that
Lubomir Penev Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.09.21 09:02:00 - [330] Originally by: Furb Killer Oh great exactly what eve needs, getting more risk-free pvpers wardeccing rookies. Hopefully for ten griefed to quit the game at least one will enjoy it and start playing the game properly -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog

Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice	Posted - 2009.09.21 09:16:00 - [331] Originally by: Malcanis Correct. This is aimed specifically at NPC corp mission runners. And we know what groups that neatly describes, dont we? 0.0 mission alts ISK farmers Yeah, my sympathy for their "playstyle" is kind of limited. Of lvl 4 mission spamming ISK farmers, you won't really impact them. They will corp hop until the end of time, and they have the resources to probably get as many alt corps as they possibly need. I highly doubt they'd care that they have lhgepouye's corp in their employment history ten million times. As for the 0.0 ratters, again, 1 man corp and its not like wardecs would make a noticeable difference to a ratter. For the people who know the mechanics of the game, they will still be invincible and raking all their earnings in. The change can ONLY hurt newer people, casual NPC corp players and anybody who doesn't spend their free time researching undocumented (as far the official website and the tutorial goes) game mechanics. Unless the tutorial gets revamped to explain keeping yourself safe, explains the rules of wardecs explicitly and goes into more detail about PvP (covering everything from escaping gate camps, insta undocks, aggression coundowns), all you are doing is needlessly nerfing people's income or putting them at risk to players with superior knowledge. The only way this change is good for the game is if CCP seriously revamps and overhauls the tutorial to protect the unprepared. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.09.21 09:17:00 - [332] haha owned... but why exactly 11% and not, say, 12% or 15%?? I would say 15% is a good amount. Funny to see all the carebear whinage because of that little costs. Player in player corps often pay much more. Quote: Time Flux Detected You are going too fast! Wait five minutes and try again. Go back One page \| Go back to forums this damned message sucks!!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.21 09:23:00 - [333] Originally by: Obsidian Hawk EvE is like real life it makes sure that you get the 2 absolute truths. Death and Taxes You mean: immortal clones and 1 man corps as that is what we get in EVE.
Garr Anders Minmatar Thukk U	Posted - 2009.09.21 09:27:00 - [334] Quoting an Eve University Member (I have alumni access there) Quote: Setting aside the philosophical issue of people demanding that other people conform to their personal opinion of the right way to play EVE, the only practical effects this is going to have are: 1. Earning ISK will be slightly harder for some new players. That's it. Alts that want to grind missions in safety will migrate to one-man corps. Alts that want to grind missions in safety while still socializing with other alts will migrate to one-man corps and create/join public chat channels. Players simply ignorant of player corporations will continue being ignorant. Smart newbies will continue joining EVE University in their first week. The economy will experience gradual inflation, the forums will be filled with tears, and the world will generally appear unchanged. ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Lisa Amber Fellowship of The Outer Ring	Posted - 2009.09.21 09:42:00 - [335] I'm in charge of recruiting in my corp and looking forward to this change. When trying to get people out from NPC corps I often get "ho you have a tax" as an answer. That kind of solo players are only focused on their income rate, so there's nothing you can answer to that. Now with that change, it's up to CEO's to put a 10% tax to undercut the NPC corp tax rate and make Empire recruiters work a bit easier :)
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.09.21 09:44:00 - [336] dont think 11% are enough to pull the players out of NPC corps and enter player corps, where they may be wardecced.
CampxDavid Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.21 09:47:00 - [337] I would suggest this is nothing to do with wanting more people in corps and everything to do with trying to combat inflation.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 09:48:00 - [338] Edited by: Tippia on 21/09/2009 09:50:17 Originally by: Lisa Amber I'm in charge of recruiting in my corp and looking forward to this change. When trying to get people out from NPC corps I often get "ho you have a tax" as an answer. That kind of solo players are only focused on their income rate, so there's nothing you can answer to that. Now with that change, it's up to CEO's to put a 10% tax to undercut the NPC corp tax rate and make Empire recruiters work a bit easier :) And that's really what this is all about. It's not about "forcing" people out of NPC corps — it's about giving PC corps another tool to entice people into joining them. Originally by: Garr Anders The economy will experience gradual inflation, the forums will be filled with tears, and the world will generally appear unchanged. Ehm…? How does less ISK being generated (or, possibly, same amounts of ISK of which some will be sunk into corp fees) cause gradual inflation? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.21 09:58:00 - [339] Originally by: Lisa Amber I'm in charge of recruiting in my corp and looking forward to this change. When trying to get people out from NPC corps I often get "ho you have a tax" as an answer. That kind of solo players are only focused on their income rate, so there's nothing you can answer to that. Now with that change, it's up to CEO's to put a 10% tax to undercut the NPC corp tax rate and make Empire recruiters work a bit easier :) If that's the kind of players you try to attract, it's a recipe for failure! Once you get your first wardec, and they find they can not ISK-make in peace, they'll be out, you'll have wasted your effort, and they'd have had a bad experience of EVE because they were forced to do something they deep down didn't want! You can not convert a solo-minded player into a group player! People evolve at their own speed into wanting to be in a group, or they don't. If they're forced, it's not going to end well. Remember, this is a GAME people do voluntarily to have fun in the way they choose! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Frug Repo Industries	Posted - 2009.09.21 10:40:00 - [340] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Lisa Amber I'm in charge of recruiting in my corp and looking forward to this change. When trying to get people out from NPC corps I often get "ho you have a tax" as an answer. That kind of solo players are only focused on their income rate, so there's nothing you can answer to that. Now with that change, it's up to CEO's to put a 10% tax to undercut the NPC corp tax rate and make Empire recruiters work a bit easier :) And that's really what this is all about. It's not about "forcing" people out of NPC corps ù it's about giving PC corps another tool to entice people into joining them. Absolutely true. While some people (for god knows what reason) have fallen in love with being in an NPC corp and don't want to leave so they can keep talking to all the horrible newbies in there while grinding missions, that's a small price to pay for a fix that has been pending for a long time. Player corps now have an advantage over NPC corps. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor

Lisa Amber Fellowship of The Outer Ring	Posted - 2009.09.21 10:51:00 - [341] Originally by: Kerfira If that's the kind of players you try to attract, it's a recipe for failure! Once you get your first wardec, and they find they can not ISK-make in peace, they'll be out, you'll have wasted your effort, and they'd have had a bad experience of EVE because they were forced to do something they deep down didn't want! You can not convert a solo-minded player into a group player! People evolve at their own speed into wanting to be in a group, or they don't. If they're forced, it's not going to end well. Remember, this is a GAME people do voluntarily to have fun in the way they choose! Then this pilot can always quit when the wardec comes... I'm not forcing anyone. But for ten guys like that, you may find one who eventually got the taste of "corp thinking", stick with us, help in the war and actually start to enjoy an other part of the game. I was one of these solo players at first, and what made me stay/come back in the game is not the so interesting and challenging PVE aspect of Eve, but to tag along with some friends and contribute to something bigger than my personal wallet. We're playing a MMO game after all for frak's sake, and the best of all if you ask me! And I know there are some other guys like me out there in NPC corps, I meet them quite often. And the change CCP just made will not "force" them to play social, to be the slave of a greedy CEO or any other BS. It will just help me to convince them to give it a shot.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2009.09.21 10:54:00 - [342] Edited by: GuntiNDDS on 21/09/2009 10:54:15 you guys seem very desperate for players joining your corps. maybe you should ask yourself the question why your corp doesnt have many players... ps: its not because of the tax. lol
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.09.21 11:00:00 - [343] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 21/09/2009 11:00:54 Quote: And the change CCP just made will not "force" them to play social, to be the slave of a greedy CEO or any other BS. It will just help me to convince them to give it a shot. So instead of saying that this tax will force people to go into a Corp, we will say that it will force people to TRY to go into a Corp. Just two more words ^^ _______ Local is fine, period. CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ?
lollerwaffle Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice	Posted - 2009.09.21 11:12:00 - [344] '11% OMG IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!11!!one!!' Magic numbers able to induce pages of whining and crying. Jeebus, it's just 11%! A fraction of some imaginary number in a game and people are crying about being 'forced' to do things, arguments about 'sandbox' etc. All I can say is, IMO CCP created this game with a griefer mindset. All they have to do is make slight changes every now and again and just sit back watching the tears and emorage from the playerbase. Go go CCP! Can I haz job?
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.09.21 11:15:00 - [345] Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 21/09/2009 11:00:54 Quote: And the change CCP just made will not "force" them to play social, to be the slave of a greedy CEO or any other BS. It will just help me to convince them to give it a shot. So instead of saying that this tax will force people to go into a Corp, we will say that it will force people to TRY to go into a Corp. Just two more words ^^ Even better would be to use the word 'Encourage' instead of force, thus you could say : It will Encourage people to try out player corps.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2009.09.21 11:21:00 - [346] Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 21/09/2009 11:00:54 Quote: And the change CCP just made will not "force" them to play social, to be the slave of a greedy CEO or any other BS. It will just help me to convince them to give it a shot. So instead of saying that this tax will force people to go into a Corp, we will say that it will force people to TRY to go into a Corp. Just two more words ^^ Forcing implies that the players will be made to do it against their will. This is clearly not the case, so his choice of words was correct and yours was not. Those little words might not seem important at first glance, but they describe two totally different scenarios.
Aurora Nyx Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.09.21 11:24:00 - [347] Personally i don't care wether NPC corps get taxed or not, any missions i run i do on another toon in my own corp, but you gotta laugh at how many people are saying "We've been taxed in player corps for years ! It's more than 11%! Why should they get a free ride ?", or words to that effect. If your corp taxes are so bad that you need "revenge" on NPC corps, do something about it. One thing does concern me though. How many new 1-man corps will spring up, with alts holding "spare" corps in case of war-decs ? Isn't this going to impact the database and it's load ?
Xandr0ss	Posted - 2009.09.21 11:35:00 - [348] This is a stupid idea, as people have said it will affect the newer players, and make them have to grind more to get small amounts of isk. There are a lot of people who don't want to join a player corp, and I think putting those players off the game is a bad idea, and doesn't really help the game. If you think it will encourage people to join player corps you are wrong, there are a lot of casual players who like npc corps because they don't have any duties or responsibilities and can play how they like, when they like. 11% just means 11% more grind for newer players.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.21 11:54:00 - [349] Bah, this discussion is boring now. It has already been established that it will only have tiny impact on the income from mission running, and and will not be anymore bothersome than refining and trade taxes. Btw. taxes seems to be a new buzzword in Dominion, as CCP seems to have planned more in that regard with implementing estate tax for sovereignty holders. I expect when the numbers have been fixed we will see threads similar to this pop up from that of the player base. I wonder if the responses will be the same. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:19:00 - [350] Originally by: Xandr0ss This is a stupid idea, as people have said it will affect the newer players, and make them have to grind more to get small amounts of isk. There are a lot of people who don't want to join a player corp, and I think putting those players off the game is a bad idea, and doesn't really help the game. If you think it will encourage people to join player corps you are wrong, there are a lot of casual players who like npc corps because they don't have any duties or responsibilities and can play how they like, when they like. 11% just means 11% more grind for newer players. It will only start to impact newer players when they start to run top end level 2 combat missions, and a few very rare Level 1 missions where the mission rewards exceed 100K, and individual bounties exceed 30K. Recon 1 of 3 being a prime example of a highend level 2 mission, where the drop in income is about 200K, and thats not a major drop. However by the time you're ready to run the Level 2 Recon, you're going to have a decent wallet anyway. The income drop starts to hit on Level 3 and 4 missions, where you can loose between 4-6 mil in tax, but thats on something like AE 4, (IIRC) the bounties total 30-40mil, and the reward is 3-4 mil.

Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:21:00 - [351] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Bah, this discussion is boring now. It has already been established that it will only have tiny impact on the income from mission running, and and will not be anymore bothersome than refining and trade taxes. Btw. taxes seems to be a new buzzword in Dominion, as CCP seems to have planned more in that regard with implementing estate tax for sovereignty holders. I expect when the numbers have been fixed we will see threads similar to this pop up from that of the player base. I wonder if the responses will be the same. The 3% figure is only applicable to certain statistical scenario. Weather the change has a net effect of 3%,4%,5%,..9,5345345% or 10% lies completly in the individual players playstyle.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:34:00 - [352] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Bah, this discussion is boring now. It has already been established that it will only have tiny impact on the income from mission running, and and will not be anymore bothersome than refining and trade taxes. Btw. taxes seems to be a new buzzword in Dominion, as CCP seems to have planned more in that regard with implementing estate tax for sovereignty holders. I expect when the numbers have been fixed we will see threads similar to this pop up from that of the player base. I wonder if the responses will be the same. 0.0 alliances already pay a vast "tax" in the form of POS maintenance. 1 billion for a deathstar plus ~300m/month in ice and NPC goods. And 1 sov POS is the bare minimum; important systems like station systems need at least 6. And it's not just the ISK; someone has to haul and deliver all that fuel, on time and the right amounts. Frankly, just paying some ISK will be a welcome relief
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:41:00 - [353] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Jowen Datloran Bah, this discussion is boring now. It has already been established that it will only have tiny impact on the income from mission running, and and will not be anymore bothersome than refining and trade taxes. Btw. taxes seems to be a new buzzword in Dominion, as CCP seems to have planned more in that regard with implementing estate tax for sovereignty holders. I expect when the numbers have been fixed we will see threads similar to this pop up from that of the player base. I wonder if the responses will be the same. 0.0 alliances already pay a vast "tax" in the form of POS maintenance. 1 billion for a deathstar plus ~300m/month in ice and NPC goods. And 1 sov POS is the bare minimum; important systems like station systems need at least 6. And it's not just the ISK; someone has to haul and deliver all that fuel, on time and the right amounts. Frankly, just paying some ISK will be a welcome relief LOL. Besides that they also earn vast amounts of trillions through isk-moon mining.
Sentinel Borg	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:41:00 - [354] How about something like that: - 15% tax in NPC corporations AND - the ability for every player corporation to rent Concord security in high sec for a 10% extra tax So players corps can be immune to wardecs in high sec, if the pay the price for it.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:43:00 - [355] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 21/09/2009 12:43:30 Originally by: Avalon Champion Even better would be to use the word 'Encourage' instead of force, thus you could say : It will Encourage people to try out player corps. Permit me to add some words : It will encourage people to try out [1-Man] player corps ^^ Virtual immunity instead of real immunity, but no more problem to install a POS etc... And I am sure that there will have some new channels to keep social relations with older SAK/others guys. Quote: Forcing implies that the players will be made to do it against their will. This is clearly not the case, so his choice of words was correct and yours was not. Those little words might not seem important at first glance, but they describe two totally different scenarios. Punish guys to not act like they should is not "encourage people to", it is "force people to" to avoid the punishment. The real problem is the habitual communication problem of CCP. Not only they don't still add it in the Patch Notes, but they indicate this reason instead of a RP reason or something like this. _______ Local is fine, period. CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ?
Domoso	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:50:00 - [356] A tax on an NPC corp? Aside from the obvious motivations for CCP behind this change, I don't really see any benefit for the NPC corp player. As a player corp member there are usually benefits such as equipment purchases, tag alongs on lowsec/nullsec mining, PVP training, teamwork, production & research facilities, protection from harrassment, mentorships. With few exceptions there is none of that in an NPC corp. There is no benefit to being in an NPC corp except wardec immunity. But that is because of a deficiency in the mechanics of the game. There are no corporateless players. If there were, guess what, they'd have wardec immunity because you can't wardec an individual. As a solo player, why then am I either going to be forced into a player corporation, which I never wanted to do in the first place, or be gouged 11% on my income for choosing not to take advantage of the benefits of corporate life. As a solo player I have the freedom to come and go as I please but, I've also got to figure out the game on my own. I pay for every ship I purchase, every module, every book. When I go into lowsec or nullsec I'm alone, not in a gang that affords me a certain amount of protection. If I want to get into production I've got to learn the skills. I can't go to a corporate member and get them to produce some stuff for me at cost that I can then turn around and sell for a tidy profit. If I have a bunch of crap to move, I move it myself or I pay someone else to do it. Can't go to a corp member and ask them to help me out. Other then immunity from wars that are, from what I gather, for the most part based on stupidity, I have no benefits. But, if CCP had allowed player existance to be separate from being in a corp, I'd have that anyway. And that is what an NPC corp. provides by proxy.....a corporateless existence which should already be part of the game!!!!!!!!
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:50:00 - [357] * flys a Freighter in * E\''F ........ Begening QQ fill up, please wait......... E'!''F .........Please wait................ "Warning, overload! Warning* . . E'''/F QQ extraction Complete, loads left OVER 9000! Thnak you for using QQ extractor Version 1.5!
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:51:00 - [358] Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 21/09/2009 12:43:30 Originally by: Avalon Champion Even better would be to use the word 'Encourage' instead of force, thus you could say : It will Encourage people to try out player corps. Permit me to add some words : It will encourage people to try out [1-Man] player corps ^^ Virtual immunity instead of real immunity, but no more problem to install a POS etc... And I am sure that there will have some new channels to keep social relations with older SAK/others guys. Quote: Forcing implies that the players will be made to do it against their will. This is clearly not the case, so his choice of words was correct and yours was not. Those little words might not seem important at first glance, but they describe two totally different scenarios. Punish guys to not act like they should is not "encourage people to", it is "force people to" to avoid the punishment. The real problem is the habitual communication problem of CCP. Not only they don't still add it in the Patch Notes, but they indicate this reason instead of a RP reason or something like this. Jesus you're butthurt. OK how about they dont get the tax, but they do get a 150 mill a month CONCORD bill?
Daneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:56:00 - [359] I would ask questions about this; I would make a statement about those of us helping new players and filling in the grand canyon sized gaps left by the NPE. But I know that the fraction of a percentage of the player base, those who actually manifest on the forums would be running after me for my precious bodily fluids... I can't see an 11% tax affecting me. The vast majority of my ISK comes from mining, production and generally playing with the market. I mean unless 11% of my inventory is going to magic itself away overnight; which doesn't appear to be the case. On the plus side, as someone who does help the nubs, I'll just figure out the exact ISK/hr loss any mission activity takes and convince my cohorts to charge the noobs for answers to make up the difference. I mean, this change is for bending over nubs, so lets REALLY bend them over.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 13:28:00 - [360] Originally by: Domoso A tax on an NPC corp? Aside from the obvious motivations for CCP behind this change, I don't really see any benefit for the NPC corp player. Yeeees…? Why should there be a benefit in it for them? (And I'm doing the silly thing of assuming that you mean added benefit here, since there are quite a few benefits already.) ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

Mashie Saldana BFG Tech	Posted - 2009.09.21 13:39:00 - [361] My corp tax is 100% so what is this 11% you are complaining about?
Decarus Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Twilight Federation	Posted - 2009.09.21 14:31:00 - [362] Originally by: Domoso A tax on an NPC corp? Aside from the obvious motivations for CCP behind this change, I don't really see any benefit for the NPC corp player. Ain't this the rum of it all? People actually think that being in an NPC corp should benefit players more than being in a Player Run corp. I don't get how people can maintain that NPC Corps should be tax free. That's like slapping helper wheels on your motorcycle and then expect to be immune from traffic violation fines because you've still got your helper wheels on. I almost want to bid you people "Welcome to EVE" but it's ridiculous as many of your accounts are older than mine.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.09.21 14:40:00 - [363] Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 21/09/2009 14:44:18 Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 21/09/2009 14:42:26 Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 21/09/2009 14:41:59 The real reason Mission Runner do not want to be in a player corp are Wardecs. CCP, if you want them in player corps you must give them somethink like "no, I don't want to play war with you". It is TO easy and TO cheep to declair war. Declare war must cost a minimum of 1 billion/week peer member of the target corp to declare it! Doubling with each week (2. week = 2 bil/week peer member, 3. week = 4 bil/week peer member and so on). And if this target corp pays a tax to CONCORD (NOT to the aggressor!) they can declare this hostil action as illigal (ak disable it). This has to be expensive too for sure so they had to decide, if they fight or pay. Both action MUST hurt the wallet if you want them to PvP. With this you will bring much MUCH more mission runner into player corps then you will with this stupid tax idear. And you will get big corps instead of 1 mans as it will be to expensive, to wardec a 100 man corp ;). Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.21 14:49:00 - [364] Edited by: Kerfira on 21/09/2009 14:49:12 Originally by: Decarus People actually think that being in an NPC corp should benefit players more than being in a Player Run corp. I don't get how people can maintain that NPC Corps should be tax free. That is because you are just as tainted by your own situation as the ones on the other side of the fence, and not able to see the other guys point of view. Some people doesn't want to play EVE to the degree that's required to be successful in player corp (at least not ones worth it), yet CCP has been luring them into the game and invest in it on the basis that 'they could be what they wanted', which DOES include being a non-PvP mission runner in an NPC corp. Now suddenly the rules change, and these players are suddenly being punished for playing the way CCP told them they could! Now, beside that point, I think it has been fairly well demonstrated that this will not have any effect on player corp, except that 10000's of 1-man corp will be opened, closed if they get wardec'ed, with a replacement opened 5 seconds later. CCP are trying a 'lazy' easy solution to a problem they don't even seem to have defined, but as all problems the situation is more complex. If you want to move players into player corp, you'll have to take ALL OF high-sec earnings, wardec mechanics, corp mechanics, grief tactics, and NPC corp mechanics into account, clearly define your goal, and THEN see where you have to change stuff.... Otherwise it'll just end up as all the other changes where consequences were not properly considered! Note that I don't mind an NPC corp tax as such, but it can't stand alone because there are so many ways people can avoid it, all of them with negative consequences for that players social interactions in the game.... Try to see beyond yourself, please! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Alternative Character	Posted - 2009.09.21 14:51:00 - [365] Originally by: Jack Jombardo The real reason Mission Runner do not want to be in a player corp are Wardecs. CCP, if you want them in player corps you must give them somethink like "no, I don't want to play war with you". It is TO easy and TO cheep to declair war. Terrible idea, and i've never been in a corp that has actively sought to declare war for the purpose of profit, and yet I see this as a ridiculous argument. To be rewarded you should have to take risks, this is what CCP are trying to encourage. It's far to easy to sit in your little npc corp bubble happily making billions with no real reason other than to buy nice shiny things. What they are trying to encourage is getting people out there, into the REAL game, where you can take real risks, and in return be greatly rewarded. They want people to work together to build links with each other, and to influence the game. I think most people still in NPC corps after months or even years are scared of loss. If you want to maximise your profit you will need to get over it.
Cassiopeia Draco	Posted - 2009.09.21 14:55:00 - [366] Originally by: Jack Jombardo Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 21/09/2009 14:44:18 Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 21/09/2009 14:42:26 Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 21/09/2009 14:41:59 The real reason Mission Runner do not want to be in a player corp are Wardecs. CCP, if you want them in player corps you must give them somethink like "no, I don't want to play war with you". It is TO easy and TO cheep to declair war. Declare war must cost a minimum of 1 billion/week peer member of the target corp to declare it! Doubling with each week (2. week = 2 bil/week peer member, 3. week = 4 bil/week peer member and so on). And if this target corp pays a tax to CONCORD (NOT to the aggressor!) they can declare this hostil action as illigal (ak disable it). This has to be expensive too for sure so they had to decide, if they fight or pay. Both action MUST hurt the wallet if you want them to PvP. With this you will bring much MUCH more mission runner into player corps then you will with this stupid tax idear. And you will get big corps instead of 1 mans as it will be to expensive, to wardec a 100 man corp ;). Way to go about totally killing the wardec system, can i have whatever you're smoking or drinking. 1 bil/week is too much, although i agree that current wardec fees are too low, and should be increased, maybe 20mil for a corp, 100mil per alliance. The Chances of getting having a war declared are small, of the last 4 corps I've been in, they've been wardecced 3 times, once because the alliance was decced, once because a noob smacktalked the wrong person, and once because another industrial corp wanted us of that region when we started to undercut them.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2009.09.21 14:59:00 - [367] Someone help me! ;;;;; I might have to fight an enemy which does more than slowly walk into my weapons like an ISK pinata, interact with other people, AND I MIGHT LOSE A PIXEL SPACESHIP! Seriously, if I ever lost a ship I'd probably cry myself to sleep and quit the game. I am a casual player, and as such am incapable of enjoying anything aside from watching my pixel money go up so that I can buy better items to make more pixel money with. Sure, you may say I have all my eggs in one basket, and that I don't need a three billion isk mission ship. Well, it's just my playstyle; I only need one ship because I'll never lose it. ^^ -------------- Everyone has a choice in what game they play. I chose the one labeled 'dark' and 'harsh' because it makes me seem cool.. but have you seen it out there? It's scary to leave the newbie areas! Until CCP lets me turn off my pvp flag I'll just have to settle for pretending I'm a super awesome pirate hunter on these NPCs. I really kill lots of pirates, too!~
Tuscanspeed	Posted - 2009.09.21 15:00:00 - [368] Originally by: Alternative Character I think most people still in NPC corps after months or even years are scared of loss. If you want to maximise your profit you will need to get over it. And then some of us just want to play and not be bothered by the patheticness that is a player run corp. I have no desire to join a player corp. This change won't change that. I could care less about the ISK loss. I'd like to see the tithe actually do something if you want to spin it as paying Concord, since Concord cannot protect me even in highsec. Spin it how you will CCP. The change is stupid. And won't solve the non problem you perceive as a problem. If it's botting you want to cut down on, there are far better solutions. Never have been. Never will be. An Alt.
Atrei Capital	Posted - 2009.09.21 15:13:00 - [369] Originally by: Tuscanspeed Originally by: Alternative Character I think most people still in NPC corps after months or even years are scared of loss. If you want to maximise your profit you will need to get over it. And then some of us just want to play and not be bothered by the patheticness that is a player run corp. I have no desire to join a player corp. This change won't change that. I could care less about the ISK loss. I'd like to see the tithe actually do something if you want to spin it as paying Concord, since Concord cannot protect me even in highsec. Spin it how you will CCP. The change is stupid. And won't solve the non problem you perceive as a problem. If it's botting you want to cut down on, there are far better solutions. Preach brother! How dare they make you play with other people in an online game!
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.09.21 15:18:00 - [370] Edited by: Avalon Champion on 21/09/2009 15:18:37 Originally by: Tuscanspeed Originally by: Alternative Character I think most people still in NPC corps after months or even years are scared of loss. If you want to maximise your profit you will need to get over it. And then some of us just want to play and not be bothered by the patheticness that is a player run corp. I have no desire to join a player corp. This change won't change that. I could care less about the ISK loss. I'd like to see the tithe actually do something if you want to spin it as paying Concord, since Concord cannot protect me even in highsec. Spin it how you will CCP. The change is stupid. And won't solve the non problem you perceive as a problem. If it's botting you want to cut down on, there are far better solutions. Have you ever been in a player corp? If not how can you comment on them being pathetic or otherwise. If you have then they must have been a bad corp. Edit : grammer and spelling

Altie McName	Posted - 2009.09.21 15:22:00 - [371] Originally by: Tuscanspeed Originally by: Alternative Character I think most people still in NPC corps after months or even years are scared of loss. If you want to maximise your profit you will need to get over it. And then some of us just want to play and not be bothered by the patheticness that is a player run corp. I have no desire to join a player corp. This change won't change that. I could care less about the ISK loss. I'd like to see the tithe actually do something if you want to spin it as paying Concord, since Concord cannot protect me even in highsec. Spin it how you will CCP. The change is stupid. And won't solve the non problem you perceive as a problem. If it's botting you want to cut down on, there are far better solutions. Not every authority figure can be there to protect everyone. Where are the cops when someone does a drive by? Do cops magically appear when someone wandered into a .5 neighborhood, fell in a ditch and then got ganked by random pirates? Suicide gankers will always have a chance of taking you out, just like you have the unfortunate chance of being the unlucky person getting shot on the street or in a store robbery. Difference is, this is a game, it also has "Role Playing" sides to it as well, yeah some people like to pretend instead of shooting other ships, thus saying this goes to pay Concord. Learn to accept different points of views for game changes if you are going to accept some aspects of this fictional fantasy universe but deny the others
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 15:23:00 - [372] Originally by: Atrei Capital Originally by: Tuscanspeed Originally by: Alternative Character I think most people still in NPC corps after months or even years are scared of loss. If you want to maximise your profit you will need to get over it. And then some of us just want to play and not be bothered by the patheticness that is a player run corp. I have no desire to join a player corp. This change won't change that. I could care less about the ISK loss. I'd like to see the tithe actually do something if you want to spin it as paying Concord, since Concord cannot protect me even in highsec. Spin it how you will CCP. The change is stupid. And won't solve the non problem you perceive as a problem. If it's botting you want to cut down on, there are far better solutions. Preach brother! How dare they make you play with other people in an online game! There are other mechanics to play with other people in an online game besides engading them in combat or listen to their stories on teamspeak that they tell everyone because they have no friends in real life that they can tell anything. Playing with people in an online game doesn¦t have to be a direct form of interaction. Besides that people do not have an alternative to eve online. If there were an offline version i am sure quite a few people would actually prefer that.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.21 15:26:00 - [373] These threads are brewing up a fair amount of bitterness on either side which I think may spill over into the game itself at any minute. Calling player corps pathetic when you say you've never been a member of one isn't going to endear you to any of them so I think you just shot yourself in the foot now. Can anyone else feel a storm brewing
Heroldyn	Posted - 2009.09.21 16:07:00 - [374] i have been in a nullsec based corp/ally almost since the day i started playing EVE. that was up until about a year and a half ago when i went back to empire. i can see why people enjoy being in player corporations but i can also see why they don't. especially thoose players with restricted free time. i won't stay in my current npc corporation for the rest of my EVE life, but really an increase in tax is not gonna be the trigger. i want to add that everyone who posted in this topic should meet up together at some family therapist or something. why does this forum not allow for an objective un-emotionized friendly discussion on the matter?
Gideon Kross Caldari PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.09.21 16:28:00 - [375] This isn't that big of a deal, people. Move along... Nothing Game Breaking To See Here...
Macon Squaredealer Squaredeal Enterprises	Posted - 2009.09.21 16:29:00 - [376] Originally by: Heroldyn i won't stay in my current npc corporation for the rest of my EVE life, but really an increase in tax is not gonna be the trigger. Of course it won't. Anyone who thinks that the solo carebears are going to dash off and join player corps in order to avoid having to pay an 11% tax now is an idiot. A few will set up a corp which they will disband the second they get dec'd, but that's only a make believe corp in order to avoid the tax. This is NOTHING more than a tax on isk sellers farming and hiding in the NPC corp's - and folks, that's a good thing. ___________________________________________ Watch for the Squaredeal Enterprises IPO in the coming months.
Lisa Amber Fellowship of The Outer Ring	Posted - 2009.09.21 16:30:00 - [377] Reading here I feel that a lot of opinions are based on the assumption that being in a player corp implies lots of hard work, ungrateful duty, and basicaly changing your play-style in order to obey orders of a greedy CEO or whatever. Who the hell is spreading stories like that? Sure there are some hardcore corps requiring such a commitment but from my experience it's far form majority (think of the hundreads of small empire corps there)
Heroldyn	Posted - 2009.09.21 16:35:00 - [378] Originally by: Macon Squaredealer Originally by: Heroldyn i won't stay in my current npc corporation for the rest of my EVE life, but really an increase in tax is not gonna be the trigger. Of course it won't. Anyone who thinks that the solo carebears are going to dash off and join player corps in order to avoid having to pay an 11% tax now is an idiot. A few will set up a corp which they will disband the second they get dec'd, but that's only a make believe corp in order to avoid the tax. This is NOTHING more than a tax on isk sellers farming and hiding in the NPC corp's - and folks, that's a good thing. i don't believe that is the case. isk sellers farm through mining, and mining is not affected by the tax. also i believe ccp has communicated allready that this is about trying to get players out of npc corporations.
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.21 16:41:00 - [379] CCP arent trying to encourage anything, they're stealing our isk plain and simple.
Gideon Kross Caldari PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.09.21 16:47:00 - [380] Originally by: Michwich CCP arent trying to encourage anything, they're stealing our isk plain and simple. It's not being "Stolen" in excessive amounts... Relax, already.

Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.21 16:54:00 - [381] Originally by: Lisa Amber Reading here I feel that a lot of opinions are based on the assumption that being in a player corp implies lots of hard work, ungrateful duty, and basicaly changing your play-style in order to obey orders of a greedy CEO or whatever. Who the hell is spreading stories like that? Sure there are some hardcore corps requiring such a commitment but from my experience it's far form majority (think of the hundreads of small empire corps there) My friends and I left our previous corp as we didn't share the 'big vision' the CEO was putting forward, so now we have our own corp which doesn't place any major constraints on it's members, we have a small tax that lets the corp wallet grow a little week by week and we have fun, able to make our own plans. I originally made the corp for my industrial alt, so he could join a research alliance that recently disbanded, but when we left the first corp it seemed an obvious choice to just pile into our own and do as we pleased til we figured out other things we could do. And if you feel like your isk is being stolen..you have a choice, we all make choices in EVE!
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:07:00 - [382] ITT, people here take play money and pixel space ships way to serious for me. I am in a Player corp, we do ops every weekend, and I am not even rquired to attend, the rest of the time, its spur of the moment. Want to run some missions? great go ahead, solo or if some one want to join, make a a corp thing. Want to mine? Great, you can, need a hualer, just ask in corp. I had the most fun, I have had playing ever yesterday on a Mining op, in my retriver and later hualing. Talking to corp mates and, trying to get the most out of my little retriver as I could, and later trying to hual in my itty. I even got a Flashy red, a salvager, tired to kill him but he ran and hid in a station untill the time ran out. Good times.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:17:00 - [383] Originally by: Michwich CCP arent trying to encourage anything, they're kind enough to give you any isk at all to play with, plain and simple. Fix'd. It's not your ISK, you know… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:22:00 - [384] I'm diagnosing a bloated sense of entitlement, there is no cure
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:24:00 - [385] Originally by: Michwich CCP arent trying to encourage anything, they're stealing our isk plain and simple. Start up your own corp then?
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:27:00 - [386] Originally by: Serge Bastana I'm diagnosing a bloated sense of entitlement, there is no cure As if the "salvage theft" ~~whines~~ misconceptions hadn't been enough of a clue… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:33:00 - [387] Originally by: Michwich CCP arent trying to encourage anything, they're stealing our isk plain and simple. haha lol. You make it sound like they need to, as if they can't all just generate as much ISK into their wallets on a whim if they were so inclined. And I'm confused by the constant whining about war decs, as if non-consensual PvP wasn't a part of EVE. Seriously, they whine on and on like War Decs are something that happen to player corps DAILY. Even the assumption that it would be the end of their easy ISK existence is unwarranted.
Rellik B00n Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:38:00 - [388] Originally by: Malcanis OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP. Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his? quoting this for the people that are trying to carry on an argument as though this statement doesnt exist. + LDS @ Bclnc
PostWithYourAlt	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:39:00 - [389] CCP came up with a solution to a non identified problem that naturally does not solve it. Instead of trying to "fix" the symptom (people are in npc corps) CCP should identify the disease (why are people not in player corps?) I hope they dont expand on this kind of half-serious game design.
K'uata Sayus	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:47:00 - [390] All you NPC corp lone wolves need to form your own one-player corps with your alts and problem is solved. Unless you're a real d***head, you'll never get wardecced. If you're afraid of this, then stay in the NPC corp and pay your friggin' dues, man. I can imagine thousands of new small corporations springing up like mushrooms after a rain. Being part of your own corp has a lot of advantages, doesn't cost much and leaving the nest is something all alleged adults strive to do. (mild apologies to all of you living in your parent's basements, you probably have good reasons, no?) EVERYONE SEEMS NORMAL UNTIL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM.

Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:49:00 - [391] Edited by: Ukucia on 21/09/2009 17:51:20 Originally by: Lisa Amber Reading here I feel that a lot of opinions are based on the assumption that being in a player corp implies lots of hard work, ungrateful duty, and basicaly changing your play-style in order to obey orders of a greedy CEO or whatever. Who the hell is spreading stories like that? Sure there are some hardcore corps requiring such a commitment but from my experience it's far form majority (think of the hundreads of small empire corps there) Some of us have been around the block a few times. Scams, required ops (after advertising no required ops) and sudden increases in tax rates are quite common. (This character's been in 2 player corps. My other characters were used to 'try out' corps to see if they were terrible or not.) Yes, there are good player corps in the game. There are far more terrible player corps in the game. And without an "in" in a good player corp, you're far more likely to end up in a bad one. Think of it this way: to get into a good player corp that is known from the outside as good requires 30M+SP since they can be very selective (or you can get incredibly lucky). To get into a good, unknown, player corp requires a lot of luck. Wasting my playtime trying out lots of bad corps to find a good one is not something I find entertaining.
Ashina Sito Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:50:00 - [392] Edited by: Ashina Sito on 21/09/2009 17:53:20 I hate you... Originally by: PostWithYourAlt CCP came up with a solution to a non identified problem that naturally does not solve it. Instead of trying to "fix" the symptom (people are in npc corps) CCP should identify the disease (why are people not in player corps?) I hope they dont expand on this kind of half-serious game design. Direct, to the point and right on the nose. All with a minimal amount of words. Damn you!!!!
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:55:00 - [393] Originally by: Ashina Sito I hate you... Originally by: PostWithYourAlt CCP came up with a solution to a non identified problem that naturally does not solve it. Instead of trying to "fix" the symptom (people are in npc corps) CCP should identify the disease (why are people not in player corps?) I hope they dont expand on this kind of half-serious game design. Direct, to the point and right on the nose. All with a minimal amount of words. Damn you!!!! …and also quite obtuse. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Pandemonium Heresy Amarr Colossus Technologies	Posted - 2009.09.21 17:57:00 - [394] Considering my alt only makes cash from industry, I have no prob paying 11% for wardec immunity. It is quite frankly worth the cost. Quote: A military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent, appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective. -Sun-tzu
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:01:00 - [395] Originally by: Pandemonium Heresy Considering my alt only makes cash from industry, I have no prob paying 0% for wardec immunity. It is quite frankly worth the cost. Fixed. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:05:00 - [396] Edited by: Julian Lynq on 21/09/2009 18:06:10 Originally by: Tippia àand also quite obtuse are my replies. i just throw out random sentences and make no sense. QFT
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:08:00 - [397] Originally by: Julian Lynq I don't know how to read Too bad, because if you did, you would have seen the explanation to why the description he made was incredibly short-sighted and missed the whole point of introducing these taxes: to give leverage to PC corps where there previously was none. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:11:00 - [398] Edited by: Julian Lynq on 21/09/2009 18:11:14 Originally by: Tippia If i could read i would have read how Ccp said themselves that they made the change because they believe it might get people out of npc corporations. I am sorry for posting all this crap, I should really take a class and learn reading properly.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:15:00 - [399] Edited by: Tippia on 21/09/2009 18:15:37 Originally by: Julian Lynq I said I can't read, dammit! Apparently, you can't think either. Anyway, here's a tip: "leverage" — look it up. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:18:00 - [400] Originally by: PostWithYourAlt CCP came up with a solution to a non identified problem that naturally does not solve it. Instead of trying to "fix" the symptom (people are in npc corps) CCP should identify the disease (why are people not in player corps?) I hope they dont expand on this kind of half-serious game design. what he said npc folks are not gonna join into player Corp¦s from this change.

Gonada Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:22:00 - [401] lol 12 pages of whines sure hope ccp implements this.
Sun Clausewitz	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:25:00 - [402] now all they need to do is fix the wardec corp hopping problem and we will be good to go Pick Three: Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:34:00 - [403] sluuuuurrrrps -- Originally by: Professor Slocombe I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:36:00 - [404] Originally by: GuntiNDDS Originally by: PostWithYourAlt CCP came up with a solution to a non identified problem that naturally does not solve it. Instead of trying to "fix" the symptom (people are in npc corps) CCP should identify the disease (why are people not in player corps?) I hope they dont expand on this kind of half-serious game design. what he said npc folks are not gonna join into player Corp¦s from this change. Aparently there are quite a few who might
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:36:00 - [405] Originally by: Gonada lol 12 pages of whines sure hope ccp implements this. 14 actually. God, I'm looking forward to this.
Pandemonium Heresy Amarr Colossus Technologies	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:38:00 - [406] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Pandemonium Heresy Considering my alt only makes cash from industry, I have no prob paying 0% for wardec immunity. It is quite frankly worth the cost. Fixed. Thanks. yes, what I meant to say was I have no problem whatsoever. Quote: A military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent, appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective. -Sun-tzu
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:38:00 - [407] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Gonada lol 12 pages of whines sure hope ccp implements this. 14 actually. God, I'm looking forward to this. So far I've recreated a lake from tears.
Alternative Character	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:41:00 - [408] Originally by: Irida Mershkov So far I've recreated a lake from tears. I hear China are using these threads to fill the Three Gorges Dam.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:44:00 - [409] please stop spamming the thread and return to discussion.
Mikayla Grey Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:45:00 - [410] Originally by: Irida Mershkov Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Gonada lol 12 pages of whines sure hope ccp implements this. 14 actually. God, I'm looking forward to this. So far I've recreated a lake from tears. Stop it, my feet are getting wet.

baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:47:00 - [411] Originally by: Julian Lynq please stop spamming the thread and return to discussion. which part? The dev worshiping or the thing about how lions are lazy and suck at solo work?
Aethrwolf Caldari Home for Wayward Gamers	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:56:00 - [412] can someone please link to my reply about this from the thread in test server feedback? I have to go to work so I dont have time atm. Absolutely everything is subjective.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.21 19:17:00 - [413] Edited by: Daemonspirit on 21/09/2009 19:18:03 I was at work last night, just got up, and now I can reply... Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Furb Killer Oh great exactly what eve needs, getting more risk-free pvpers wardeccing rookies. Hopefully for ten griefed to quit the game at least one will enjoy it and start playing the game properly Properly according to who? I'm not sure here, but I think that the Eve-Online they downloaded is the same as yours... Originally by: CampxDavid I would suggest this is nothing to do with wanting more people in corps and everything to do with trying to combat inflation. This does nothing to combat inflation - Combating inflation would be accomplished by increasing the supplies of things, and keeping the money supply steady or slightly rising. Originally by: Lisa Amber I'm in charge of recruiting in my corp and looking forward to this change. When trying to get people out from NPC corps I often get "ho you have a tax" as an answer. That kind of solo players are only focused on their income rate, so there's nothing you can answer to that. Now with that change, it's up to CEO's to put a 10% tax to undercut the NPC corp tax rate and make Empire recruiters work a bit easier :) Lisa, here is some free advice: Recruit from Eve-University: Work Fair (Recruitment forum): http://www.eve-ivy.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=66&sid=2fd94c08e8fd12807e1f14ca74cbd272 Linky included for your edification. Look through the recruitment posts, find those that look professionally done, copy the style (make yours look professional), and put up a recruitment thread. I have now done more for you as far as getting more people (and better qualified...) into your Corp than this tax will ever accomplish. Your Welcome. Originally by: GuntiNDDS Edited by: GuntiNDDS on 21/09/2009 10:54:15 you guys seem very desperate for players joining your corps. maybe you should ask yourself the question why your corp doesnt have many players... ps: its not because of the tax. lol QFT - If more Corps/Alliances actually did a better job of recruiting, this wouldn't be an issue... oh wait... that would involve more effort on their part than whining to CCP . . . Somewhere back in the thread is a quoted deb-blog that shows about (iirc) 72% of the active eve accounts over 2M sp are already in player corps... There is always going to be a subset of the game who don't wish to be in other players corps (which is what I think they meant when CCP said "encourage them to join PC's..." I kinda get the feeling they meant "other players..." So this won't affect the 28% of players above 2M SP who are in NPC corps... But wait... How many of those 28% are: Cyno Alts? 0.0 Money Making Alts? whatever alts that STILL won't be effected? Its already been determined that: RMT isk farming Mission Runners will not be affected, 0.0 isk farming mission runners already aren't afforded any protection from being in an NPC corp... Exactly who is this going to effect? My guess no one relevant enough to the game to make any noticeable effect... edit - i fail at linking, screw it can't be arsed... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Mikayla Grey Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.21 19:19:00 - [414] Originally by: Daemonspirit Exactly who is this going to effect? My guess no one relevant enough to the game to make any noticeable effect... Thats a lot of tears coming from so few.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2009.09.21 19:23:00 - [415] Originally by: Thallidus This does little to actually promote people to join player corps, and a fair bit to open the door for people to have a terrible first corp experience. Want new players to join corps early? Make the punishments for high-sec griefing (wardecs) much higher. There's no faster way to make a new player give up on corps entirely then having his first one fold under the pressure from a high-skillpoint griefer corp. I know these forums, they'll just say "those people belonged in WoW anyway! Good riddance!" but that is the path to game failure and obscurity via slowly dwindling player numbers. There's constant turnover in MMOs, if you're not attracting new people eventually the old people leave and the game withers.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.21 19:26:00 - [416] Originally by: Mikayla Grey Originally by: Daemonspirit Exactly who is this going to effect? My guess no one relevant enough to the game to make any noticeable effect... Thats a lot of tears coming from so few. ? I was just commenting that the change won't be effective at accomplishing CCP's stated objective, and that it wouldn't have an appreciable effect on the game... Thats not tears, just my opinion - and for the record? Change won't have any effect on me or any of my toons... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Sizzle Anburn	Posted - 2009.09.21 19:41:00 - [417] Originally by: Daemonspirit Originally by: Mikayla Grey Originally by: Daemonspirit Exactly who is this going to effect? My guess no one relevant enough to the game to make any noticeable effect... Thats a lot of tears coming from so few. ? I was just commenting that the change won't be effective at accomplishing CCP's stated objective, and that it wouldn't have an appreciable effect on the game... Thats not tears, just my opinion - and for the record? Change won't have any effect on me or any of my toons... Exactly and well said. It won't impact my gameplay a bit either as I have some in corp's and some not. The ones cheering here seem incapable of forming an unbiased opinion based on facts instead of emotions, and the fact of the matter is a small NPC corp tax isn't going to work at forcing people to group against their will. They could raise the NPC corp tax to 100% and it wouldn't work. The high sec NPC corp carebears would just do non-taxable things, or form invulnerable (use and dispose if war dec'd) solo corps to avoid the tax, or maybe quit if they finally get annoyed enough, but suddenly see the light and join a player corp? Not a chance. It's a ham handed solution to attack a symptom of something that may or may not even be a problem. It's an attempt to force grouping, and I've never seen that work. You can improve things somewhat by buffing the benefits of grouping, but forcing grouping by nerfing being in the NPC corp isn't going to do anything. At least it's inevitable failure is bound to annoy those who insist everyone should be in a player corp and play the way they do, so all is not lost I suppose
Ebon Prophecy Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.21 19:45:00 - [418] The vocal minority gets their way again.... Too bad CCP listens to the real whiners....
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 19:51:00 - [419] Originally by: Sizzle Anburn the fact of the matter is a small NPC corp tax isn't going to work at forcing people to group against their will. Another fact of the matter is that no-one is claiming that it will. In fact, the only ones talking about "forcing" people are the ones decrying the change — most everyone else are seeing it as a way to nudge, to entice, and to attract players into PC corps since these corps now have a point of leverage that previously wasn't available to them. The whole "it won't succeed at forcing players" is quite a strawman argument — it has never been said to be the goal. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.21 19:52:00 - [420] Originally by: Ebon Prophecy The vocal minority gets their way again.... Too bad CCP listens to the real whiners.... huh?

Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 19:55:00 - [421] I believe the idea behind this I believe is that it will encourage some to join or form their own player corps, while those who remain have this set 11% tax as a balance to their complete and utter immunity to PvP
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2009.09.21 19:56:00 - [422] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14 It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:02:00 - [423] Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Uronksur Suth I believe the idea behind this I believe is that it will encourage some to join or form their own player corps, while those who remain have this set 11% tax as a balance to their complete and utter immunity to PvP Am i missing a recent change about npc corporations? Because last time i checked the only difference was not being able to be wardecced, nothing about being immune to pvp. Yes, well, in high sec then that makes you pretty much untouchable, doesn't it?
Sizzle Anburn	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:04:00 - [424] Originally by: Tippia Another fact of the matter is that no-one is claiming that it will. In fact, the only ones talking about "forcing" people are the ones decrying the change ù most everyone else are seeing it as a way to nudge, to entice, and to attract players into PC corps since these corps now have a point of leverage that previously wasn't available to them. The whole "it won't succeed at forcing players" is quite a strawman argument ù it has never been said to be the goal. Strawman indeed. Trying to spin a punishment for solo play in the NPC corp into being some sort of benign "encouragement" is nothing more than playing semantical games. Again, as I said, it doesn't impact me. So go right ahead and implement it. Just don't expect to see the results you and others seem to desire.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:04:00 - [425] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Sizzle Anburn the fact of the matter is a small NPC corp tax isn't going to work at forcing people to group against their will. Another fact of the matter is that no-one is claiming that it will. In fact, the only ones talking about "forcing" people are the ones decrying the change ù most everyone else are seeing it as a way to nudge, to entice, and to attract players into PC corps since these corps now have a point of leverage that previously wasn't available to them. The whole "it won't succeed at forcing players" is quite a strawman argument ù it has never been said to be the goal. The point of leverage is so tiny as to be unnoticeable.. Again - if this is about encouraging players to join (other players) Corps, its effect will be smaller than p-ing on a hot griddle... it won't even sizzle... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:05:00 - [426] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Uronksur Suth I believe the idea behind this I believe is that it will encourage some to join or form their own player corps, while those who remain have this set 11% tax as a balance to their complete and utter immunity to PvP Am i missing a recent change about npc corporations? Because last time i checked the only difference was not being able to be wardecced, nothing about being immune to pvp. Yes, well, in high sec then that makes you pretty much untouchable, doesn't it? It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:09:00 - [427] I really do wonder how many people in NPC corps see the proposed tax as a punishment too, or could it be that they're just enjoying the game and don't see it as that big a change to their game play.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:10:00 - [428] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Uronksur Suth I believe the idea behind this I believe is that it will encourage some to join or form their own player corps, while those who remain have this set 11% tax as a balance to their complete and utter immunity to PvP Am i missing a recent change about npc corporations? Because last time i checked the only difference was not being able to be wardecced, nothing about being immune to pvp. Yes, well, in high sec then that makes you pretty much untouchable, doesn't it? It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles. Um. No. Because you aren't children. And if you DO want to be untouchable, there should be a COST for that immunity.
Rebel Witch Minmatar Rebel Empire	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:13:00 - [429] 11% Won't be enough, I doubt it will push players to a player corp more than 1-5% more. Now if it was 20-30% then you might see significant changes. Also, a great way to snuff out macro miners and isk sellers, tax mining 50% or more if you are in a npc corp. After all, if you are a miner you are the top 1% wealthy of all humans and we know how governments love to tax the wealthy. ---------------------- iSPY is an anonymous spy ring bringing Spies and Clients together for isk and intel.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:15:00 - [430] Originally by: Julian Lynq It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles. Ok, lets get one thing straight... You will still be entirely safe, even if you make a 1 man corp. However, YOU, personally Julian, may have made enough of an ass of yourself here to attract some war-decs with comments like the above... Most people who DON"T smack talk in local will never get war-dec'd... there are just too many singles out there to bother tracking everyone down... Your "ISK" income will be nerfed by 11% only if: a. You run missions and never salvage or loot. b. You can't shut up in local, and therefore can't make a 1 man mission-running corp because smack talking attracts war-decs. c. that's it. This change will have no other effect... raise the tax to 100% - it is still so easy to avoid it, it becomes irrelevant... d. Even if you DO get wardec'd, if you make it a habit to change to an alt corp every other day, whether or not your dec'd, your golden... because its just your normal play style. - Now, do try to calm down... - take a deep breath... Which should really be the point of the conversation here - because if those in NPC corps do not wish to join (other) Players Corps - they still have no incentive to do so.... Fail Change is pointless... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö

Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:16:00 - [431] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Um. No. Because you aren't children. And if you DO want to be untouchable, there should be a COST for that immunity. you want to engadge with me in unconsentual pvp. You are specialized in it while I have nothing to defent myself from it (pve skill-set). you dont don¦t want to engadge in pvp with people that are on your level. It is quite alot like how pedophiles that want to touch children.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:20:00 - [432] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Uronksur Suth Um. No. Because you aren't children. And if you DO want to be untouchable, there should be a COST for that immunity. you want to engadge with me in unconsentual pvp. You are specialized in it while I have nothing to defent myself from it (pve skill-set). you dont don¦t want to engadge in pvp with people that are on your level. It is quite alot like how pedophiles that want to touch children. Yes, you imbecile, EVE contains non-consensual PvP. CCP has stated repeatedly that this is an intended feature of the game. And comparing it to child molestation as if it breaks some rule is too stupid to be even slightly lol worthy.
Domoso	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:20:00 - [433] Edited by: Domoso on 21/09/2009 20:22:20 This is a bad move by CCP. And if/when they implement it guess what, people are just going to form their own corps with 0% tax. And then what? You betcha, CCP is going to levy a tax on corporations to discourage such moves. And then what? All you people complaining about us NPC corpers are going to be complaining about being taxed. So what's the point of this move by CCP? I pay them to play a game. I'm not paying them to play a game that requires I work to play it. I've got other crap on my mind, like college. Taking 11% of the isk I spend my time and my rl money to earn is nothing more than BS. If they really wanted to solve this "problem" they've identified then how about giving players in player corps a progressive royalty based on number of players instead of making it 11% more difficult for me to make isk? Because either way, I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:25:00 - [434] Originally by: Daemonspirit Originally by: Julian Lynq It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles. Ok, lets get one thing straight... You will still be entirely safe, even if you make a 1 man corp. However, YOU, personally Julian, may have made enough of an ass of yourself here to attract some war-decs with comments like the above... To be honest I really don`t care. I am fine making an ass of myself if it helps to get the message across that the change is bad and that thoose in favour are mostly people that want to gank defensless carebears (which is not what will happen anyways). I sacrifice myself for the topic if you will. I notice that my equtation might raise emotions here but if you look at it from an objective angle there is really no reason for that.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:25:00 - [435] Originally by: Domoso This is a bad move by CCP. And if/when they implement it guess what, people are just going to form their own corps with 0% tax. And then what? You betcha, CCP is going to levy a tax on corporations to discourage such moves. No, you dimwit, because that is EXACTLY what CCP has said they want. I haven't quite decided whether that was a troll post or not.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:26:00 - [436] This little change won't effect me in the least really. I have characters in player corps, this character is in my own 1 man player corp. I'm a jita trade alt and never undock.. war dec me all you want. Like I said earlier, you lose isk, I lose nothing but gain a LOT of LOLS at your expense. My mission runner character is already set to step out of the NPC corp and into a 1 man corp (making it a two man corp) that I will make the day this change goes live. If that corp gets war decced my mission runner will drop corp and move to another alt corp that I will make for the purpose. Rinse. Repeat. Effective cost to me per alt character I create just to make into 1 man corps to hop in and out of: 1,618,000 isk (2 BS bounties.. ooo scary cost). The time involved to do so, less than 10 minutes per alt character, this is including training time, character creation time and corp creation time. I make that much in bounties in the same amount of time or less depending on what NPC I am shooting at. So 15 alt characters all making alt corps that my mission runner can hop into. Total cost to me: 24, 270,000 isk and less than 150 minutes time waiting for alts to train on second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth accounts on my other computer (2.5 hours time, that I will still be making isk through while they train because I won't have stopped running missions while they do it). I make 24 million isk off 1 missions bounties and loot easily if It's a fair mission. Net Effect of this NPC Tax: Not a damn thing but all the wannabe pirates screaming in impotent rage because they can't do a damn thing to stop me from doing it. Your wannabe pirate tears, they are delicious. Please cry some more. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:29:00 - [437] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Uronksur Suth Um. No. Because you aren't children. And if you DO want to be untouchable, there should be a COST for that immunity. you want to engadge with me in unconsentual pvp. You are specialized in it while I have nothing to defent myself from it (pve skill-set). you dont don¦t want to engadge in pvp with people that are on your level. It is quite alot like how pedophiles that want to touch children. Yes, you imbecile, EVE contains non-consensual PvP. CCP has stated repeatedly that this is an intended feature of the game. And comparing it to child molestation as if it breaks some rule is too stupid to be even slightly lol worthy. Respond to the full thing or don¦t respond at all.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:34:00 - [438] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Uronksur Suth Um. No. Because you aren't children. And if you DO want to be untouchable, there should be a COST for that immunity. you want to engadge with me in unconsentual pvp. You are specialized in it while I have nothing to defent myself from it (pve skill-set). you dont don¦t want to engadge in pvp with people that are on your level. It is quite alot like how pedophiles that want to touch children. Yes, you imbecile, EVE contains non-consensual PvP. CCP has stated repeatedly that this is an intended feature of the game. And comparing it to child molestation as if it breaks some rule is too stupid to be even slightly lol worthy. Respond to the full thing or don¦t respond at all. So what if you aren't specialized for PvP? I don't get your point.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:38:00 - [439] Originally by: Uronksur Suth So what if you aren't specialized for PvP? I don't get your point. That: - You are specialized in it. - You dont want to engadge with people of your level. I have neither: - Skills for it (PVE skills) - Nor Experience. but the important part really is that you want to engadge me rather than people of your "level"/experience

CCP Eris Discordia	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:38:00 - [440] Originally by: Julian Lynq It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles. These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point. Pink Dread has been hijacked


baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:39:00 - [441] Edited by: baltec1 on 21/09/2009 20:39:23 Originally by: Domoso Edited by: Domoso on 21/09/2009 20:22:20 This is a bad move by CCP. And if/when they implement it guess what, people are just going to form their own corps with 0% tax. And then what? You betcha, CCP is going to levy a tax on corporations to discourage such moves. And then what? All you people complaining about us NPC corpers are going to be complaining about being taxed. So what's the point of this move by CCP? I pay them to play a game. I'm not paying them to play a game that requires I work to play it. I've got other crap on my mind, like college. Taking 11% of the isk I spend my time and my rl money to earn is nothing more than BS. If they really wanted to solve this "problem" they've identified then how about giving players in player corps a progressive royalty based on number of players instead of making it 11% more difficult for me to make isk? Because either way, I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.[/quote] Behold for it is working!
Ashina Sito Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:41:00 - [442] Originally by: Serge Bastana I really do wonder how many people in NPC corps see the proposed tax as a punishment too, or could it be that they're just enjoying the game and don't see it as that big a change to their game play. Since nothing new is being added I believe that most people in NPC corps see it as a punishment. For me the tax will be negligible. I make far more from LP then I do from the "soon to be (tm)" taxable income. The honest truth is this will only make spending time in 0.0 that much worse since nearly ALL of my income in 0.0 would be taxed. So, this change could end up meaning less time doing PvP... quite ironic. After 3 years I have yet to encounter the need to be in a Player Corp. I was mission running in low sec at 6 days old, mining low sec @ 16 days. I went into 0.0 at 7 weeks, alone with no support or guidance. With NPC corpes I have done L5 missions, Exploration, WH content, PvP roams, taught PvP classes and lead fleets in 0.0 space. All of this on my time, when I want and how I want, a level of freedom and independence I will not see in a Player Corp. Just because most of the player base are sheep who are incapable of doing anything on there own does not mean I am weak and need the crutches they rely upon. This change will nether nudge nor force anyone to do anything. All it will do is annoy pilots who see NPC corps as their home. Why institute a change that will not achieve it's goal and only result in a an increase in negative perception of the game by it's players? The fact that CCP can not see this is troubling. More so is the fact that they can not comprehend the position of players that chose to stay in NPC corps. What will they do when they decide to stop nudging and chose to actually force players into player corps?
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:43:00 - [443] Edited by: Uronksur Suth on 21/09/2009 20:43:14 Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Uronksur Suth So what if you aren't specialized for PvP? I don't get your point. That: - You are specialized in it. - You dont want to engadge with people of your level. I have neither: - Skills for it (PVE skills) - Nor Experience. but the important part really is that you want to engadge me rather than people of your "level"/experience Well, not me actually. But I'm not sure, you feel like CCP should regulate PvP based on skill level? You seem to be missing the point. Non-consensual PvP is something CCP considers a feature of the game. Just because you don't want to participate doesn't mean you should be protected. And for the love of God, its spelled "Engage" EDIT: Oh look they agree with me Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Originally by: Julian Lynq It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles. These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:43:00 - [444] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Originally by: Julian Lynq It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles. These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point. There is no reason for reacting emotional to it. See it from an objective angle.
Tuscanspeed	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:46:00 - [445] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Originally by: Julian Lynq It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles. These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point. Then how about focusing on the point that this change will do nothing to achieve the goal you're shooting for and will only **** people off? Never have been. Never will be. An Alt.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:46:00 - [446] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Originally by: Julian Lynq It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles. These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point. Like it matters, CCP is fixed on the idiotic idea that you should force people into player corporations, because you decide for others what is more fun. (this is completely seperate from the wardec argument, this is just CCPs idea that they should 'help' players having more 'fun'). Quote: Yes, well, in high sec then that makes you pretty much untouchable, doesn't it? So since when was it only in high sec? In my time in npc corporatiosn i have been more time in low sec. Which means soloing and not asking your entire corp for backup when your 'soloing' doesnt go as planned. No more suicide gankers in high sec? Can baiters? Ninja looters? Ore thieves? And how is it different from a normal corp where i just corp hop/dont login during wardec?
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:49:00 - [447] Edited by: Julian Lynq on 21/09/2009 20:48:55 Originally by: Uronksur SuthWell, not me actually. But I'm not sure, you feel like CCP should regulate PvP based on skill level? [:? You seem to be missing the point. Non-consensual PvP is something CCP considers a feature of the game. Just because you don't want to participate doesn't mean you should be protected. No I was not making that point. The point is not that I want protection, but that the reason you are for the change is because you want to attack thoose that cannot defend. The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal.
Tuscanspeed	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:51:00 - [448] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Edited by: Uronksur Suth on 21/09/2009 20:43:14 You seem to be missing the point. Non-consensual PvP is something CCP considers a feature of the game. Just because you don't want to participate doesn't mean you should be protected. Last I checked, I can be shot down while part of an NPC corp just as fast as a player corp. Never have been. Never will be. An Alt.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:53:00 - [449] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Originally by: Julian Lynq It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles. These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point. There is no reason for reacting emotional to it. See it from an objective angle. For all of the very smart and intelligent people that work at CCP, they are very dumb when it comes to the player base. They seem to assume everyone thinks and acts as they do or would when the opposite is usually true. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:53:00 - [450] Originally by: Julian Lynq The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal. Originally by: Domoso I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax. Seems to me that it is working.

Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:57:00 - [451] Originally by: Julian Lynq Edited by: Julian Lynq on 21/09/2009 20:48:55 Originally by: Uronksur SuthWell, not me actually. But I'm not sure, you feel like CCP should regulate PvP based on skill level? [:? You seem to be missing the point. Non-consensual PvP is something CCP considers a feature of the game. Just because you don't want to participate doesn't mean you should be protected. No I was not making that point. The point is not that I want protection, but that the reason you are for the change is because you want to attack thoose that cannot defend. The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal. Yes, and as for your wanting protection, this change means that you actually have to pay for it now. And if you don't want to pay, feel free to join a player corp with a tax rate more to your liking. Or hell, just train Corp Management 1 and make your own.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:59:00 - [452] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 21/09/2009 21:06:04 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Julian Lynq The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal. Originally by: Domoso I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax. Seems to me that it is working. technically yes, but the reality is, your going to have LESS social interaction than you had with people staying in NPC corps. For myself that is not a bad thing, I prefer the Lone Wolf approach to the game over being in a corp with other players. My mission runner alt keeps corp chat and local minimized and never interacts with people. I don't need other people to enjoy the game. I enjoy it very well without you. I think that is what bothers so many people. They can't see playing in an MMO alone, they seem to feel that doing so is somehow wrong and un-natural to be in a MMORPG and NOT seek out other players. The problem with that concept isn't that I don't seek out other players, my PVP alt does on a regular basis in low sec. The problem they seem unable to grasp is that I can do everything they do in a group, by myself. I think that confuses and scares them so much they think they MUST force people to play as they do because 'that is the only way to play eve'. Sounds very religious to me. "My God is the only true God, yours is a false god and is a devil, you must be forced to convert to my God!" ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:01:00 - [453] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Yes, and as for your wanting protection, this change means that you actually have to pay for it now. And if you don't want to pay, feel free to join a player corp with a tax rate more to your liking. Or hell, just train Corp Management 1 and make your own. Again, I don¦t want protection. I want that everyone sees that you are a fail pvp¦er who needs to kill pve players so he can at least get a killmail too and is additionally not intelligent enough to grasp that this change will not in any way produce more targets for him. In short: the reason you are in favour of this change is exactly as void as the change being sucessfull in fullfilling the stated goal.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:08:00 - [454] Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 21/09/2009 21:14:40 Originally by: Cassiopeia Draco Originally by: Jack Jombardo The real reason Mission Runner do not want to be in a player corp are Wardecs. CCP, if you want them in player corps you must give them somethink like "no, I don't want to play war with you". It is TO easy and TO cheep to declair war. Declare war must cost a minimum of 1 billion/week peer member of the target corp to declare it! Doubling with each week (2. week = 2 bil/week peer member, 3. week = 4 bil/week peer member and so on). And if this target corp pays a tax to CONCORD (NOT to the aggressor!) they can declare this hostil action as illigal (ak disable it). This has to be expensive too for sure so they had to decide, if they fight or pay. Both action MUST hurt the wallet if you want them to PvP. With this you will bring much MUCH more mission runner into player corps then you will with this stupid tax idear. And you will get big corps instead of 1 mans as it will be to expensive, to wardec a 100 man corp ;). Way to go about totally killing the wardec system, can i have whatever you're smoking or drinking. 1 bil/week is too much, although i agree that current wardec fees are too low, and should be increased, maybe 20mil for a corp, 100mil per alliance. The Chances of getting having a war declared are small, of the last 4 corps I've been in, they've been wardecced 3 times, once because the alliance was decced, once because a noob smacktalked the wrong person, and once because another industrial corp wanted us of that region when we started to undercut them. Well, all corps I had been in had been wardeced once a month minimum. The last wardec was a 1 man corp just to shot one of our highsec tower. He declared war but refuced it some houres later so he had a timeframe of maybe 10 hours where we sleep (yes, some people do it). Clear indicator, wardecs are far to easy and far to cheap! And with the current implementation they can be abused to easy to grif-play. And this is, why player decide to stay in NPC corps. They do NOT like to be helpless victims becouse of broken wardec system. So if you like them in NPC corps CCP - fix your borked wardec system! Wardec just becouse someone talk in local? If you want to do -> PAY a high price for wardecing! Wardec becouse you want to grif? -> PAY for it a high price! If you wardec someone -> life with it, that you can't take it back for 1 week! If you wardec someone -> life with it, that he might pay CONCORD to figth for him (ak declaring this wardec as illegal). Pirates allways talk about risk v rewared. WHERE is the risk for this 1 man corp when he knows "they sleep at this time and if they awake the war is over allready"? WHERE is the risk for this PvP speced 20 man corp to declare a 5 man mining/producer corp war? If you talk about risk v reward .... then bring the risk to wardecs @CCP! As there is NO risk atm! Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:10:00 - [455] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Uronksur Suth Yes, and as for your wanting protection, this change means that you actually have to pay for it now. And if you don't want to pay, feel free to join a player corp with a tax rate more to your liking. Or hell, just train Corp Management 1 and make your own. Again, I don¦t want protection. I want that everyone sees that you are a fail pvp¦er who needs to kill pve players so he can at least get a killmail too and is additionally not intelligent enough to grasp that this change will not in any way produce more targets for him. In short: the reason you are in favour of this change is exactly as void as the change being sucessfull in fullfilling the stated goal. I see you are also not too great with the idea of war dec piracy. There some very expensive ships out there which are just ripe for pillaging.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:11:00 - [456] Originally by: Julian Lynq Again, I don¦t want protection. I want that everyone sees that you are a fail pvp¦er who needs to kill pve players so he can at least get a killmail too and is additionally not intelligent enough to grasp that this change will not in any way produce more targets for him. In short: the reason you are in favour of this change is exactly as void as the change being sucessfull in fullfilling the stated goal. The ironic thing is I don't PvP. I couldn't care less about killmails. I'm in favor of this because I think NPC corps need some balancing to account for their immunity to war deccs. And since there are so many people complaining about it, yes, I imagine that some people will move into player corps, or at least start their own.
Sizzle Anburn	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:17:00 - [457] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Julian Lynq The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal. Originally by: Domoso I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax. Seems to me that it is working. You'd be wrong. The goal isn't to get the NPC bears to dash off and create disposable one man player corps to avoid the tax, it's to "encourage" or "nudge" haha them into REAL player corps and interact with other players instead of essentially playing solo. Accomplishing that would provide CCP with players who have a higher retention rate than solo players. The proposed design fails at both encouraging and forcing grouping, which doesn't surprise me as it seems CCP can't make up it's mind which they want to do.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:23:00 - [458] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Julian Lynq Again, I don¦t want protection. I want that everyone sees that you are a fail pvp¦er who needs to kill pve players so he can at least get a killmail too and is additionally not intelligent enough to grasp that this change will not in any way produce more targets for him. In short: the reason you are in favour of this change is exactly as void as the change being sucessfull in fullfilling the stated goal. The ironic thing is I don't PvP. I couldn't care less about killmails. I'm in favor of this because I think NPC corps need some balancing to account for their immunity to war deccs. And since there are so many people complaining about it, yes, I imagine that some people will move into player corps, or at least start their own. How will that make them more vulnerable? We've already discussed that anyone with enough intelligence to play the game can figure out how to be virtually immune to war-decs. Net effect will still be zero (or so close to zero that it means nothing). Just tonnes more (imho) alt corp'er war-dec hoppers to infuriate everyone... (I think anyone that thinks this through will either form several one man corps, or not leave NPC corps at all). This won't make enemy logistics more vulnerable, won't make enemy ISK earners more vulnerable, won't make ISK sellers more vulnerable - I honestly can't see, for anything that's been said on the topic, how this will actually help anything that the people in this thread who have supported it have brought up? Julien is over-reacting to the perceived threat, but thats it... vOv After its been explained that this should have no net effect on his earnings, or if that bothers him, how to make himself virtually immune to what he sees as the problem. My whole objection to this idea is that it won't accomplish the stated objective... I hate silly ideas... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:27:00 - [459] Originally by: Sizzle Anburn Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Julian Lynq The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal. Originally by: Domoso I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax. Seems to me that it is working. You'd be wrong. The goal isn't to get the NPC bears to dash off and create disposable one man player corps to avoid the tax, it's to "encourage" or "nudge" haha them into REAL player corps and interact with other players instead of essentially playing solo. Accomplishing that would provide CCP with players who have a higher retention rate than solo players. The proposed design fails at both encouraging and forcing grouping, which doesn't surprise me as it seems CCP can't make up it's mind which they want to do. For all we know, this could be the push that Domoso needs to not only start his own corp but to eventualy build an allience as powerfull as BoB used to be.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:28:00 - [460] Well, I suppose I think, and what CCP is hoping, is that while there will be a lot of people just creating one man corps, there will be at least a FEW who do join real corps. And possibly some of those those one man corps might eventually grow, merge or enter alliances with each other, or recruit their friends out of the NPC corp.

Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:30:00 - [461] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Julian Lynq Again, I don¦t want protection. I want that everyone sees that you are a fail pvp¦er who needs to kill pve players so he can at least get a killmail too and is additionally not intelligent enough to grasp that this change will not in any way produce more targets for him. In short: the reason you are in favour of this change is exactly as void as the change being sucessfull in fullfilling the stated goal. The ironic thing is I don't PvP. I couldn't care less about killmails. I'm in favor of this because I think NPC corps need some balancing to account for their immunity to war deccs. And since there are so many people complaining about it, yes, I imagine that some people will move into player corps, or at least start their own. Well, you need to realize that the complaining is because the change is not anticipated to achieve the goal. Do you really believe I care about making a 1 man corp and hop around and see poeple wasting their money on wardeccing me? Or about the 11% increase that really comes down closer to about 4-5% regarding my play syle ? The reason that I put that much.. let¦s say "effort" into this discussion is not because I fear of any player attack. It is because I see ccp making unintelligent changes that do not solve something that doesn¦t need to be solved anyways. And people that don¦t care about it only because it doesnt affect them or because they don¦t understand the results of it. I want that when ccp makes changes in eve, they are well thought through and have a meaning. Changes that actually provide the chance to achieve their goal.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:32:00 - [462] Originally by: Sizzle Anburn Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Julian Lynq The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal. Originally by: Domoso I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax. Seems to me that it is working. You'd be wrong. The goal isn't to get the NPC bears to dash off and create disposable one man player corps to avoid the tax, it's to "encourage" or "nudge" haha them into REAL player corps and interact with other players instead of essentially playing solo. Accomplishing that would provide CCP with players who have a higher retention rate than solo players. The proposed design fails at both encouraging and forcing grouping, which doesn't surprise me as it seems CCP can't make up it's mind which they want to do. I've played eve SOLO for more than two years (either in my own 1 man corps or in NPC corps). This doesn't do anything to encourage players to go into 'real' player corps as you say, it just encourages people that have no desire to deal with the politics, stupidity, griefers and scammers of 'real' player corps to either eat the tax (not a big deal really), make their own 1 man disposable alt corp to jump corps with (I'm doing that), or quit the game (some will). Like you said CCP has failed once again to understand basic fundamentals of a not insignificant section of their player base. I am the Lone Wolf type of player. I don't NEED others to enjoy the game. I enjoy every aspect of the game except blob warfare and idiotic corp politics with out needing to deal with people that I would rather not talk to in the first place. I pay for 4-6 accounts a month depending on my game needs for that month. Why should my money be any less important or valuable than a player that NEEDS to be around others, that can't function in the game without others help? I am self sufficient. Can you say the same? Is your dollar any less important or more important than mine? If CCP is thinking that the dollar player X that is in a player corp means more than the dollar that is from player Y that is in an NPC corp, then they need to fire someone. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:36:00 - [463] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Sizzle Anburn the fact of the matter is a small NPC corp tax isn't going to work at forcing people to group against their will. Another fact of the matter is that no-one is claiming that it will. In fact, the only ones talking about "forcing" people are the ones decrying the change ù most everyone else are seeing it as a way to nudge, to entice, and to attract players into PC corps since these corps now have a point of leverage that previously wasn't available to them. The whole "it won't succeed at forcing players" is quite a strawman argument ù it has never been said to be the goal. When you're down to arguing semantics, and doing it poorly, you really should stop trying to argue. A nudge is still forcing. And if you seriously think that low taxes is going to spur recruiting, then your corp must be awful. There has to be something you guys do that you can brag about that's better than "We can protect your money just like the Cayman Islands!"
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:42:00 - [464] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Sizzle Anburn Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Julian Lynq The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal. Originally by: Domoso I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax. Seems to me that it is working. You'd be wrong. The goal isn't to get the NPC bears to dash off and create disposable one man player corps to avoid the tax, it's to "encourage" or "nudge" haha them into REAL player corps and interact with other players instead of essentially playing solo. Accomplishing that would provide CCP with players who have a higher retention rate than solo players. The proposed design fails at both encouraging and forcing grouping, which doesn't surprise me as it seems CCP can't make up it's mind which they want to do. For all we know, this could be the push that Domoso needs to not only start his own corp but to eventualy build an allience as powerfull as BoB used to be. So, the reason you're so happy with the change is you have no idea about psychology. Gotcha. Tip: There are loners in this world. They decided to live their life without a large crowd of people around them. You can beat them all you want with a stick, they're still not gonna be happy in a large crowd of people. So no, long-time NPC corp players aren't too scared to venture off into player corps "and create thew new BoB". They've all done the corp life and rejected it. It's the newbies you want to try and 'encourage', and you do that by reforming the wardec system. 'course, the wanna-be piwates will HATE the way the wardec system would have to change for that to work.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:44:00 - [465] Originally by: Ukucia A nudge is still forcing. No. A nudge is a suggestion. Forcing is removing choice. You still have full control of what you want to do, only now, the PC corps have another tool at their disposal in trying to convince you. Quote: And if you seriously think that low taxes is going to spur recruiting, then your corp must be awful. There has to be something you guys do that you can brag about that's better than "We can protect your money just like the Cayman Islands!" …let me stress that: another tool, on top of the ones they already have — one that they didn't have before. For some, it may be the deciding factor. Given how many are howling at the change, it may actually be quite a few… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:50:00 - [466] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Ukucia A nudge is still forcing. No. A nudge is a suggestion. Forcing is removing choice. You still have full control of what you want to do, only now, the PC corps have another tool at their disposal in trying to convince you. Quote: And if you seriously think that low taxes is going to spur recruiting, then your corp must be awful. There has to be something you guys do that you can brag about that's better than "We can protect your money just like the Cayman Islands!" àlet me stress that: another tool, on top of the ones they already have ù one that they didn't have before. For some, it may be the deciding factor. Given how many are howling at the change, it may actually be quite a fewà Your a bloody optimist now... If only CCP had made some tools so that Corporations and Alliances could get the "recruiting" word out, a forum, or an in game channel... oh wait... maybe MAYBE, Player Corporations are the ones failing? Failing to attract that new player? Failing to counter the "bitter vets" in the rookie channel? Failing to do anything different? ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 21:53:00 - [467] Originally by: Daemonspirit maybe MAYBE, Player Corporations are the ones failing? Failing to attract that new player? Failing to counter the "bitter vets" in the rookie channel? Failing to do anything different? No doubt, but then isn't it a good idea to give them more ways to sell themselves? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Sizzle Anburn	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:00:00 - [468] Originally by: Tippia No. A nudge is a suggestion. Forcing is removing choice. No. Game design changes to get people to group more are either: Carrot (encouragement) - "If you group you'll get all these cool benefits!" This is the approach CCP has traditionally used most of. Stick (punishment) - "If you don't group we're going to do something to penalize you." NPC corp tax in this case. Problem with the design of this particular stick is that it can so easily be gamed.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:05:00 - [469] Edited by: Ukucia on 21/09/2009 22:06:18 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Ukucia A nudge is still forcing. No. A nudge is a suggestion. Forcing is removing choice. Fine, we'll have the semantic argument. You walk up to someone and nudge them. You APPLIED FORCE TO THEM. Nudging is forcing. More gentle than a shove, but forcing none the less. Are you next going to tell me that this isn't a tax, but a revenue enhancement? Quote: Quote: And if you seriously think that low taxes is going to spur recruiting, then your corp must be awful. There has to be something you guys do that you can brag about that's better than "We can protect your money just like the Cayman Islands!" àlet me stress that: another tool, on top of the ones they already have ù one that they didn't have before. For some, it may be the deciding factor. Given how many are howling at the change, it may actually be quite a fewà If it's the deciding factor, then your corp is indeed awful. And it's also pretty clear you're not reading what the folks "howling" are complaining about. Lemme sum it up: 1) Sandbox game. Why are we being forced/nudged/encourged/whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call-it into playing the "right" way? 2) This won't make more targets for wardecs. Wardecs are easy to avoid in a 1-man corp, and the entire wardec system is a terrible compromise that will never satisfy the griefers nor the carebears. 3) This won't suddenly change the psychology of the 'lone wolf' such that they become a 'company man'. 4) There's far too many terrible player corps. Wanna actually encourage people to join player corps? 1) Minimize wardecs. You're bribing CONCORD so that you can attack me. Why can't I bribe CONCORD to block your request? Why can't I "transfer" the wardec to the merc corp I hired to fight it (such that both me and the mercs are within the same wardec instead of the mercs having to file their own wardec). 2) The culling. Bad corps need to be exposed and thus destroyed. Perhaps COSMOS could help, if there's a way for players to put up "reviews" of corps. However, this will be a nightmare. 3) Make it easier for the rank-and-file to seize the corp from the leadership. You screw up enough as CEO, you and your friends get thrown out on your asses and new leaders take over. 4) Fix Corp roles, titles and security. It's a complicated and convoluted mess. Copying UNIX's file security system would be a far better improvement. 5) Realize that you have lone wolves who will NEVER want to join a corp, even if you offer them tons of goodies. Just let them play. If you think they're missing out on a fantastic experience, that's their choice. Now, if all CCP is looking for is for a way to retain players longer through social ties, that's a much easier fix: 1) Let us change NPC corps.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:05:00 - [470] Originally by: Sizzle Anburn Stick (punishment) - "If you don't group we're going to do something to penalize you." NPC corp tax in this case. The problem with that is that they're just perceptions. Carrot: if you join a PC corp, you can get the benefit of lower taxes. It is seen as a stick because you think of 0% taxes as the norm. For new players, it will be a carrot because that norm no longer exists. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:06:00 - [471] But what exactly would be a good carrot that would appeal to the mission runner crowd, the group this appears aimed at? And NPC corp's war dec immunity needs some sort of balancing.
Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:10:00 - [472] Dunno but this talk about "force ppl into player corps" is just bull$h!t. Yeah, Eris told so, but I guess the real thing is: Taxes are everywhere. New players have to get that early as well as being blown up and podded. If someone wants to be and to stay in NPC corps, act as lone wolf etc etc, noone will stop him. Miners, manufacturers etc. won't notice it. So hey, tax is no biggie. Stop crying pages about nothing
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:11:00 - [473] Originally by: Uronksur Suth But what exactly would be a good carrot that would appeal to the mission runner crowd, the group this appears aimed at? And NPC corp's war dec immunity needs some sort of balancing. Yes. By making it far harder to wardec. The wanna-be pirates need to be forced to play with the real pirates so they can learn what the hell they are doing. Not spend their time station-camping a "salvage ninja" in Jita.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:24:00 - [474] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Sizzle Anburn Stick (punishment) - "If you don't group we're going to do something to penalize you." NPC corp tax in this case. The problem with that is that they're just perceptions. Carrot: if you join a PC corp, you can get the benefit of lower taxes. It is seen as a stick because you think of 0% taxes as the norm. For new players, it will be a carrot because that norm no longer exists. The carrot doesn't outweigh the stick. When you join a player corp you also join into corp politics. Your forced to have to work with people that you may or may not like, and if you don't want to you may very well get booted out. People are always saying that you can do so much MORE in a player corp than you can do in an NPC corp, and they are right, unfortunately everything MORE that you can do is negative except putting up a POS. I do everything you can do in a player corp. Solo. Except put up a POS. I can even engage in gang and blob warfare. Being in an NPC corp gives me immunity from being war decced, it does not give me immunity from being PvP'd. Being in an NPC corp means I can't put up a POS. I see the trade offs as equal. Player owned corps are NOT innately 'better' because they are ran by players, they are innately worse. I have been in PC's, both good and terrible. The majority of members in PC's are PEONS. They have little or no control over where the corp is going. Virtually no (or none) access to corp hangers unless the ceo or a director gives it to them. No access to corp wallet unless given to them. Etc Etc. Where is the benefit to ANY percentage of my work going to a corp that I don't have direct and immediate access to? Protection from pirates if war decced? I get that in an NPC corp. Friends to fight with? Got them already in low sec when I want them, or I can just fly solo and look for solo fights. I see no benefit at ALL of being in a player corp versus an NPC corp, I do on the other hand see a lot more negatives. My play style is as valid as anyone else who pays to play this game. Why should I be penalized for others perception (erroneous) that I am not enjoying the game fully because I don't want to be in a player corp? ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Constable Chang Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:47:00 - [475] How about the cost of a wardec being inversely proportional to the number of members in the corp? So wardeccing a 1-man corp is, say, 100 million ISK. Wardeccing, say, Eve Uni (not that anyone would be so stupid) would be close to zero.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:51:00 - [476] Edited by: Uronksur Suth on 21/09/2009 22:52:34 Originally by: Lotus Sutra The carrot doesn't outweigh the stick. Corp taxes only apply to bounties and mission rewards. So unless you only mission and don't even salvage/loot your wrecks, it really isn't that big of an issue. Originally by: Lotus Sutra When you join a player corp you also join into corp politics. Your forced to have to work with people that you may or may not like, and if you don't want to you may very well get booted out. Wow! That sounds like how real companies and corporations work too! Originally by: Lotus Sutra People are always saying that you can do so much MORE in a player corp than you can do in an NPC corp, and they are right, unfortunately [b]everything MORE that you can do is negative[/b[ except putting up a POS. Yes, group mining ops, corp discounts on ships, joining alliances, having sovereign space all is negative. right. Originally by: Constable Chang How about the cost of a wardec being inversely proportional to the number of members in the corp? So wardeccing a 1-man corp is, say, 100 million ISK. Wardeccing, say, Eve Uni (not that anyone would be so stupid) would be close to zero. Because that would make absolutely no sense
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 23:00:00 - [477] Originally by: Constable Chang How about the cost of a wardec being inversely proportional to the number of members in the corp? So wardeccing a 1-man corp is, say, 100 million ISK. Wardeccing, say, Eve Uni (not that anyone would be so stupid) would be close to zero. If you think Eve Uni isn't wardeced frequently, you have no idea just how broken the wardec system is.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.21 23:00:00 - [478] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 21/09/2009 23:04:44 Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Lotus Sutra The carrot doesn't outweigh the stick. Corp taxes only apply to bounties and mission rewards. So unless you only mission and don't even salvage/loot your wrecks, it really isn't that big of an issue. The costs still outweigh the benefits. Why should I be pushed towards doing anything I don't want to do? Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Lotus Sutra When you join a player corp you also join into corp politics. Your forced to have to work with people that you may or may not like, and if you don't want to you may very well get booted out. Wow! That sounds like how real companies and corporations work too! I don't play a **ing game to deal with politics. If I wanted to deal with politics i'd work for the government. Originally by:** Uronksur Suth Originally by: Lotus Sutra People are always saying that you can do so much MORE in a player corp than you can do in an NPC corp, and they are right, unfortunately [b]everything MORE that you can do is negative[/b[ except putting up a POS. Yes, group mining ops, corp discounts on ships, joining alliances, having sovereign space all is negative. right. I don't want to work in group mining ops. I make my own ships and modules at discount already, alliances and soverign space don't interest me. Why should I be required to participate in them? Why should my hard work be used for others benefit and not solely for my own? Why should MY play style be any less important than YOUR play style? Again why should I be PUSHED towards doing something I have no desire to do or be a part of just because someone in CCP that doesn't have a ****ing clue thinks I will enjoy the game more when in fact I will enjoy the game less? Effectively CCP is saying my 60-90 a month is less valuable than yours. I don't pay to play this 'sandbox game where I supposedly can decide what I want to do and be" to be pushed into doing what CCP or YOU or anyone else thinks I should do or want to be. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.21 23:05:00 - [479] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Lotus Sutra When you join a player corp you also join into corp politics. Your forced to have to work with people that you may or may not like, and if you don't want to you may very well get booted out. Wow! That sounds like how real companies and corporations work too! The real company I work for pays me. Until CCP pays me to play their game, game design should not mimic real-world work. Quote: Originally by: Lotus Sutra People are always saying that you can do so much MORE in a player corp than you can do in an NPC corp, and they are right, unfortunately [b]everything MORE that you can do is negative[/b[ except putting up a POS. Yes, group mining ops, corp discounts on ships, joining alliances, having sovereign space all is negative. right. To some people, it is. You are not everyone. And you do realize that ops (mining or otherwise) can be done without being in a corp, right? It's your lack of initiative that you didn't do any until you were in a corp.
Rellik B00n Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2009.09.21 23:10:00 - [480] Originally by: Malcanis OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP. Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his? HERE IT IS AGAIN, IS IT BEGINNING TO GO IN YET? NO? Originally by: Malcanis OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP. Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his? I THINK THAT PRETTY MUCH COVERS NPC CORP IMMUNITY, NOW HOWS ABOUT WE GET BACK TO THE TEARS PLEASE. + LDS @ Bclnc

Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 23:22:00 - [481] Originally by: Lotus Sutra The costs still outweigh the benefits. Why should I be pushed towards doing anything I don't want to do? Because CCP wants is trying to get people to stop hiding in NPC corps and join the rest of the game. Originally by: Lotus Sutra I don't play a **ing game to deal with politics. If I wanted to deal with politics i'd work for the government. Thats certainly a problem seeing as CCP has stated that they want to make it as realistic as possible, so politics are only going to expand. Originally by:** Lotus Sutra I don't want to work in group mining ops. I make my own ships and modules at discount already, alliances and soverign space don't interest me. Why should I be required to participate in them? Why should my hard work be used for others benefit and not solely for my own? Then don't. Stay in the NPC corp. Or form your own corp, as you've obviously already done with Sutra Inc. Although that sort of its-all-about-me attitude is a rather bizarre one to adopt in a multiplayer game Originally by: Lotus Sutra Why should MY play style be any less important than YOUR play style? It isn't less important. That would be a personal value judgment. Working by yourself is certainly less efficient though. Originally by: Lotus Sutra Again why should I be PUSHED towards doing something I have no desire to do or be a part of just because someone in CCP that doesn't have a **ing clue thinks I will enjoy the game more when in fact I will enjoy the game less? CCP can do whatever they want with their game. They've decided that they want to try encouraging more people to join player corps, which are a major feature of the game, so they are eliminating one of the advantages to them by instituting an AVERAGE tax. Originally by:** Lotus Sutra Effectively CCP is saying my 60-90 a month is less valuable than yours. You do realize that I understand that this statement has nothing to do with the issue and is just some emotional red herring to make you seem like a martyr, right?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.21 23:33:00 - [482] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Uronksur Suth I believe the idea behind this I believe is that it will encourage some to join or form their own player corps, while those who remain have this set 11% tax as a balance to their complete and utter immunity to PvP Am i missing a recent change about npc corporations? Because last time i checked the only difference was not being able to be wardecced, nothing about being immune to pvp. Yes, well, in high sec then that makes you pretty much untouchable, doesn't it? Ever heard of suicide ganking?
Harisdrop Gallente Copia-WarRages Armaments	Posted - 2009.09.21 23:37:00 - [483] And who says they dont read my forum posts...
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.21 23:41:00 - [484] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Domoso This is a bad move by CCP. And if/when they implement it guess what, people are just going to form their own corps with 0% tax. And then what? You betcha, CCP is going to levy a tax on corporations to discourage such moves. No, you dimwit, because that is EXACTLY what CCP has said they want. I haven't quite decided whether that was a troll post or not. Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation No, it not what CCP Discordia said unless you equate "join a player corporation" to "found hundred of 1 man corp".
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.21 23:51:00 - [485] Originally by: Rellik B00n Originally by: Malcanis OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP. Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his? HERE IT IS AGAIN, IS IT BEGINNING TO GO IN YET? NO? Originally by: Malcanis OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP. Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his? I THINK THAT PRETTY MUCH COVERS NPC CORP IMMUNITY, NOW HOWS ABOUT WE GET BACK TO THE TEARS PLEASE. and this changes what? The percentage of active accounts in NPC corps (according to the dev blog quoted earlier, which I STILL can't be arsed to go look for) is somewhere around 28%... Of that 28%, how many are alts of people that have no problem ganking your dam wallet from where they are at? Quiet a bunch I imagine... And this STILL does NOTHING to address those (valid) concerns, because it doesn't address anything about those issues... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Nihiliax	Posted - 2009.09.21 23:54:00 - [486] Wow, just wow! There are so very many things that desperately need improving in this game - broken wardec mechanism, pointless bounty system and the horrendously amateurish UI to name but a few and we get what? A 2 second delay on the directional scanner and an 11% tax rate for NPC corps. It's a f**king insult to be honest. I, for one, would much prefer it if the money I pay to CCP went towards fixing real problems with this game instead of wasting everybody's time with demonstrably futile changes. As if this wasn't ridiculous enough there are actually people in this thread stating they are happy about this whole situation. Unbelievable. Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and the jury is still out on the universe.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.21 23:56:00 - [487] Originally by: Daemonspirit Originally by: Rellik B00n Originally by: Malcanis OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP. Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his? HERE IT IS AGAIN, IS IT BEGINNING TO GO IN YET? NO? Originally by: Malcanis OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP. Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his? I THINK THAT PRETTY MUCH COVERS NPC CORP IMMUNITY, NOW HOWS ABOUT WE GET BACK TO THE TEARS PLEASE. and this changes what? The percentage of active accounts in NPC corps (according to the dev blog quoted earlier, which I STILL can't be arsed to go look for) is somewhere around 28%... Of that 28%, how many are alts of people that have no problem ganking your dam wallet from where they are at? Quiet a bunch I imagine... And this STILL does NOTHING to address those (valid) concerns, because it doesn't address anything about those issues... You may be right about it not working... that kinda remains to be seen. But really, having 0% tax rate in NPC corps when the average is 10% makes no sense anyways. Personally I think most of the emorage is motivated by the fact that mission runners are losing one of the things that makes NPC corps so advantageous for them.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.21 23:59:00 - [488] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Lotus Sutra When you join a player corp you also join into corp politics. Your forced to have to work with people that you may or may not like, and if you don't want to you may very well get booted out. Wow! That sounds like how real companies and corporations work too! Real companies pay me to work for them, I don't pay them to let me work for them.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.09.22 00:31:00 - [489] As I see it, those people who want to mission run in peace, will make 1 man corps and lose out on the social aspect of the casual players in corp chat (when I haul stuff around on my alt (on the same account), npc corp chat is usually quite fun). This is a horrible idea. And no, I'm not a bear anymore. Nor do I get my jollies deccing empire corps, I live in low sec in fw to get targets that actually want to fight. But I also admit that not everyone has the time, skills or just plain interested in pvp.
Jacevetter	Posted - 2009.09.22 00:49:00 - [490] 20% would be better. Personally I would like to have joining a corp more attractive for noobys or anyone in the sandbox. I can't see much reason to War Dec a one man corp, but then it makes more reason to join a multi corp. I see a lot of NPC members that refuse to join and claim they don't pay tax and that is that. YES, most corps can offer information, access to items etc, but there needs to be a reason or reasons that would make joining a corp attractive. I think we need to restrict NPC pilots to hi sec areas only LOLOL...ya. and hi taxes. GO FOR IT CCP.

Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.22 00:51:00 - [491] But this should bother everybody, today is not you they steal from, but tommorow it will be and then how will you say they're justified? You cant. This is nothing more than to compensate for slow isk sales due to the economy, the cost being always passed down to the bottom - you the subscriber. Oh yes CCP sells isk, but thats another discussion for another thread or even forum. But lets pretend they're seriouse and just want to take money out of circulation or lower the rate that it comes in for whatever reason.. Wouldnt it be better to give us something to spend the isk on instead? You know like maybe a fully fleshed out PVE game, with avatars to dress and sex out. Taking the money flat out just seems lazy. What are we paying for again?
Magnum III Journey On Squad	Posted - 2009.09.22 00:55:00 - [492] Instead of pushing people out or punishing them for being in an NPC corp., give them reasons to do something else and or make NPC corps more like normal corps, can't do that because people want them and then you tax them more? But Do they get free ships like in player corps? No. Make personal wardecs to single characters or something How long does it take to give us a choice of target recitals? the white triangles is old, how about some nice light blue thin rings circling instead or something anything else? Why not make it 50%? Player corps give back in many ways with the tax they get from us. NPC corps do not really. And how does this harm isk sellers? Whatever, not sure what's up with this stuff, and the point is? More colorful UI and pretty please a new targeting recital or ability to turn it off, it is annoying.
Senator Dakmah	Posted - 2009.09.22 00:59:00 - [493] The problem is what I hate about corps is they tell you what to do. They don't pay for my account and quite frankly I hate people telling me what to do unless I trust them. In my book you have to earn my trust before you can get me too join a corp. There are too many idiots and don't want any of my ships destroyed because of an idiot mistake on their part. besides I am not an everyday active player. That is why I quite WOW. You have to be active everyday or you will be left behind. I like EVe because you don't have to worry about that.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.22 01:01:00 - [494] Originally by: Michwich But this should bother everybody, today is not you they steal from, but tommorow it will be and then how will you say they're justified? You cant. This is nothing more than to compensate for slow isk sales due to the economy, the cost being always passed down to the bottom - you the subscriber. Oh yes CCP sells isk, but thats another discussion for another thread or even forum. But lets pretend they're seriouse and just want to take money out of circulation or lower the rate that it comes in for whatever reason.. Wouldnt it be better to give us something to spend the isk on instead? You know like maybe a fully fleshed out PVE game, with avatars to dress and sex out. Taking the money flat out just seems lazy. What are we paying for again? I honestly can't figure out what on earth you are talking about. But even though you are almost certainly trolling, I'm going to highlight some of the more abysmally stupid/nonsensical things just for kicks.
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.22 01:05:00 - [495] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Michwich But this should bother everybody, today is not you they steal from, but tommorow it will be and then how will you say they're justified? You cant. This is nothing more than to compensate for slow isk sales due to the economy, the cost being always passed down to the bottom - you the subscriber. Oh yes CCP sells isk, but thats another discussion for another thread or even forum. But lets pretend they're seriouse and just want to take money out of circulation or lower the rate that it comes in for whatever reason.. Wouldnt it be better to give us something to spend the isk on instead? You know like maybe a fully fleshed out PVE game, with avatars to dress and sex out. Taking the money flat out just seems lazy. What are we paying for again? I honestly can't figure out what on earth you are talking about. But even though you are almost certainly trolling, I'm going to highlight some of the more abysmally stupid/nonsensical things just for kicks. Its not a troll its fact, RMT is huge business, theres no way CCP aint getting a piece of that. They dont sell isk directly, but they let other do and in turn they ban their accounts and they have to rebuy them, as a fee to do their thing. This is what Anet did in Guildwars as stated by a former dev in a blog, and what crooked police do with organized crime, same thing. Yes, youre goverment deals cocain. Get over it, and legalize it already.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.22 01:06:00 - [496] Originally by: Uronksur Suth You may be right about it not working... that kinda remains to be seen. But really, having 0% tax rate in NPC corps when the average is 10% makes no sense anyways. Personally I think most of the emorage is motivated by the fact that mission runners are losing one of the things that makes NPC corps so advantageous for them. So advantageous? o.O Since the tax is only applied on mission bounties/Mission reward/time bonus reward it actually amounts to ... less than 3.5 percent of missioning income... So your telling me that LESS THAN 3.5% income is "so advantageous"? I personally don't care if they tax the NPC corps or not, really. I personally don't care if everyone but me moved to NPC corps (which might be fun tbqh...) NPC corps (imho) are very limiting already. Just because of all the bad information there is in there... But to post that "this change has been done to encourage players to join player corporations..." as was stated by eris discordia... Give me a break... Honestly - does anyone believe that this change will encourage anyone to join a player corp who didn't already want to be in one? Does anyone think this will actually have any effect on gameplay - whatsoever? If so, convo me, I've got a Navy Raven for sale, only been flown by a little old lady from Motsu... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Jason Marshall Gallente Hammer Of Light	Posted - 2009.09.22 01:15:00 - [497] I don't see it has a tax. I see it has a fee you pay to get war dec immunity. Tacky Lensflares in sigs ftw
Octavin	Posted - 2009.09.22 01:25:00 - [498] Originally by: Rellik B00n Originally by: Malcanis OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP. Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his? HERE IT IS AGAIN, IS IT BEGINNING TO GO IN YET? NO? Originally by: Malcanis OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP. Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his? I THINK THAT PRETTY MUCH COVERS NPC CORP IMMUNITY, NOW HOWS ABOUT WE GET BACK TO THE TEARS PLEASE. The fact you are QQing over wanting more tears too funny, really... Btw this is forum where people dicuss topics, if you don't like what is being said go find another thread.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2009.09.22 01:28:00 - [499] There is an under current in this thread that should be pointed out, one that does pop up from time to time. A lot of NPC corp players hear awful stories of grifers, and corps will suck you dry, greedy overly demanding CEOs, pod you soon as you undock, or steal all your money, and other such things. Players that leave NPC corps and have a good experience don't return to NPC corps and say "hey everyone, that was great!" because they're gone and never look back, the scope of "everyone" for them has changed to their new corp. For those of us that are older, we need to be aware of the perceptions of PC corps amongst, not a majority, but a significant part of the NPC corp community. Being hostile, in this thread, or on TQ doesn't help the situation. I'm not going to try and tell anyone to play nice on the forums, just be aware of the difference between what it is you are writing, and what is being read. Honey vrs vinegar. On other related topics ... For this particular class of NPC corp player, those that may have a fear, real or not, perhaps CCP can make an adjustment to how recruitment is done. Perhaps a "trail role" can be created (although I loathe the current roles/title system, but I'll use the current vernacular.) The player can join the corp, they can not be given any other roles while the "trail role" is applied, they can not be shot by corp members and they can not shoot corp members, they can not give corp money, but they can fleet, share wrecks and cans and corp channel. They would be subject to the corp's taxes of course. The trial role would not provide any immunity from war decs. Maybe something like this would provide enough buffer to help mitigate fear and possible grief against less experienced players, and may mitigate the effects of them returning to an NPC corp with horror stories. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.22 01:33:00 - [500] Originally by: Senator Dakmah The problem is what I hate about corps is they tell you what to do. They don't pay for my account and quite frankly I hate people telling me what to do unless I trust them. In my book you have to earn my trust before you can get me too join a corp. There are too many idiots and don't want any of my ships destroyed because of an idiot mistake on their part. besides I am not an everyday active player. That is why I quite WOW. You have to be active everyday or you will be left behind. I like EVe because you don't have to worry about that. Perfectly valid, I got a little tired of it in the corp I first joined. I didn't mind at first as I was fairly new to the game and wanted to learn and they had a mature membership that wasn't full of 14 year old idiots. The problem I found was that the CEO had a plan, a vision and it ended up where I just didn't share that vision so I made the decision to leave. Now I run a corp for myself and my friends. No orders, just ideas thrown out to see what we all think and then we make a decision on what we think is the best option. Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything, I think some people have taken a comment by a dev and started waving it around like it's going to cause their current cosy existences to be ended, it won't, only as much as you let it. They could have placed much stricter restrictions on those in NPC corps, but they are using the same mechanic as is used in hundreds of player corps around eve.

Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.22 01:58:00 - [501] Originally by: Rulkez Originally by: annoing Its not so much the tax, but I have begun to believe that CCP Eris Discordia and ccp are ***** idiots. Go on ccp, tell me how this is a great big sandbox and we can play the game in any way we please .... as long as you are part of a player owned corp that is. Sure, the tax will hurt the alts who npc but big **** deal about that. You shouldnt try to force the player base into something they may not want to do, and making them join an player corp is just that. Everyone wants something different from this game, everyone. Some want to mine, some want to pvp, some want to be industrialists etc ... so who are you to tell them how to play this game? You, the player, who thinks you should force everyone to play it your way should go and sucks a donkeys , its got ** all to do with you. Its their dollar that pays for their game. You dont like how they spend it or the way they play it? Fine, ***** and go play WoW or more likely Runescape like the little spolit ey kids that you are. Get this straight, I dont object to the tax, I object to all you little tossers telling all the others how to play this game. ***** idiots the lot of you. Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist Mindless emoragerant aside, how is taxing bounties and mission rewards forcing NPC corp members to do anything may i? i don't know how you peeps think, but i'm a noob with this game, but may i have something to say... 1) you won't be hurting the established alts taxing the noob corp, instead, the new, and i mean really new players will feel the blow... 2) those industrialist alts will only not shoulder the tax by themselves, but pass it along its costumers, now, that would create inflation... 3) in the long run, i think it will become a drawback for new players rather than the old experienced players, meaning, less new players will likely continue playing the game. :))
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:02:00 - [502] Originally by: Adunh Slavy There is an under current in this thread that should be pointed out, one that does pop up from time to time. A lot of NPC corp players hear awful stories of grifers, and corps will suck you dry, greedy overly demanding CEOs, pod you soon as you undock, or steal all your money, and other such things. Players that leave NPC corps and have a good experience don't return to NPC corps and say "hey everyone, that was great!" because they're gone and never look back, the scope of "everyone" for them has changed to their new corp. You seem to have missed the part where many of the folks saying they prefer NPC corps have actually been in player corps, and had the bad experiences themselves. We're not just retelling stories we heard. Quote: For this particular class of NPC corp player, those that may have a fear, real or not, perhaps CCP can make an adjustment to how recruitment is done. Perhaps a "trail role" can be created (although I loathe the current roles/title system, but I'll use the current vernacular.) The player can join the corp, they can not be given any other roles while the "trail role" is applied, they can not be shot by corp members and they can not shoot corp members, they can not give corp money, but they can fleet, share wrecks and cans and corp channel. They would be subject to the corp's taxes of course. The trial role would not provide any immunity from war decs. There's no fear of getting shot by corpmates. The noobs don't know about it, and the vets have lots plenty of ships by now. The only "fear" is that one will have to hop through a corps for months on end to find one that fits well. That isn't gonna change with a corp tax, and your solution doesn't address it at all. In addition, you're ignoring the folks who just prefer to be lone wolves. Until the folks who want to push the player corps get around to actually reading the reasons people stay in NPC corps, this conversation isn't going to go anywhere.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:06:00 - [503] Why will it affect the new players? These taxes only affect mission rewards/bonuses that are over 100k isk and bounties that are over 30k isk. This is the same as the limit that player corps have, it's a fundamental mechanic of the tax system. What that means is that really new players won't see their income taxed until they are earning in those areas above those amounts. This is actually a comfort zone for the really new players, generally you only see your first income being taxed when you are doing the higher paid level 2 missions.
Altie McName	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:06:00 - [504] Originally by: Ukucia In addition, you're ignoring the folks who just prefer to be lone wolves. Nothing screams lone wolf more than being alone in your single man 0% tax corp.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:08:00 - [505] Edited by: Ukucia on 22/09/2009 02:08:24 Originally by: Ms Iustitia may i? i don't know how you peeps think, but i'm a noob with this game, but may i have something to say... 1) you won't be hurting the established alts taxing the noob corp, instead, the new, and i mean really new players will feel the blow... Then let me cover how the taxation system works. There are only 2 things that are taxed: 1 - Bounties on rats, as long as the bounty is over 100k 2 - Mission rewards, as long as the reward is over 30k. (and if I'm mis-remembering the numbers, I'm sure someone will flame me) As such the "really new players" aren't going to be affected by it. They're doing L1 missions, and only 1 or 2 in the entire game have rewards > 100k. And the rats they kill have relatively small bounties. The vets running L4s aren't really going to be affected very much by it. Sure, the rats they kill will definitely have taxes on their bounties, and all of their mission rewards will be taxed. But loot and salvage are worth so much that they won't be feeling much of a pinch. The folks who will get hurt the most by it are the not-quite-brand-new. They're running L2s/L3s, so they're starting to get taxed rewards and taxed bounties. However, the loot and salvage is nowhere near as valuable. Quote: 2) those industrialist alts will only not shoulder the tax by themselves, but pass it along its costumers, now, that would create inflation... Industrialists are not running missions or killing rats, so they will not be taxed.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:08:00 - [506] Originally by: Altie McName Originally by: Ukucia In addition, you're ignoring the folks who just prefer to be lone wolves. Nothing screams lone wolf more than being alone in your single man 0% tax corp. why the hell would someone who considers themselves a "lone wolf" play an MMORPG in the first place?
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:11:00 - [507] For the sense of achievement, obviously
Domoso	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:13:00 - [508] Originally by: Uronksur Suth You may be right about it not working... that kinda remains to be seen. But really, having 0% tax rate in NPC corps when the average is 10% makes no sense anyways. Personally I think most of the emorage is motivated by the fact that mission runners are losing one of the things that makes NPC corps so advantageous for them. But that was your choice to join a player corporation. You didn't come into this game in a player corporation. You chose to seek out a player corporation, join it and accept the terms of membership. You chose to benefit from the advantages of a team based organization. Why then am I going to be forced to pay a tax and not receive a benefit other than no wardec's. Big frickin deal wardec immunity is anyway. I can still be ganked. I can still have a bounty put on my head. I can still have griefers gunning for me anytime I **** someone off. In a good corp, you get ships, mods, augmentations, experienced advice, production and research facilities, etc, etc, etc. Would you be willing to pay an additional 11% tax on top of your corporate tax for all the benefits you already receive and have wardec immunity? Somehow, I don't think so.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:13:00 - [509] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Altie McName Originally by: Ukucia In addition, you're ignoring the folks who just prefer to be lone wolves. Nothing screams lone wolf more than being alone in your single man 0% tax corp. why the hell would someone who considers themselves a "lone wolf" play an MMORPG in the first place? There is no single player game that adequately simulates a real market used by real humans. The folks playing the industrial or trader roles in the game don't have much need of a corp, yet need other humans to create a vibrant market.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:19:00 - [510] Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Altie McName Originally by: Ukucia In addition, you're ignoring the folks who just prefer to be lone wolves. Nothing screams lone wolf more than being alone in your single man 0% tax corp. why the hell would someone who considers themselves a "lone wolf" play an MMORPG in the first place? There is no single player game that adequately simulates a real market used by real humans. The folks playing the industrial or trader roles in the game don't have much need of a corp, yet need other humans to create a vibrant market. So you like the market created by the players, but God forbid you should have to interact or work with them at all?

Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:40:00 - [511] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Altie McName Nothing screams lone wolf more than being alone in your single man 0% tax corp. why the hell would someone who considers themselves a "lone wolf" play an MMORPG in the first place? There is no single player game that adequately simulates a real market used by real humans. The folks playing the industrial or trader roles in the game don't have much need of a corp, yet need other humans to create a vibrant market. So you like the market created by the players, but God forbid you should have to interact or work with them at all? I'm sorry, apparently I've been breaking the rules for all this time. Here I thought I could interact with the players. I mean I've been chatting with them in local or corp chat, having price wars, filling their contracts, receiving and completing their orders. But clearly, we NPC corp people are sub-human.
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.22 02:48:00 - [512] Originally by: Altie McName Originally by: Ukucia In addition, you're ignoring the folks who just prefer to be lone wolves. Nothing screams lone wolf more than being alone in your single man 0% tax corp. Or maybe some of us don't fit well into corp molds such as "be in this area" "participate in this activity" "gimme all ur taxes for uhhh - corp fund stuff, CEO BSNS". I've been in quite a few corps since I first joined EVE... I don't quit because I don't like the people (often, anyway).
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:08:00 - [513] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Altie McName Originally by: Ukucia In addition, you're ignoring the folks who just prefer to be lone wolves. Nothing screams lone wolf more than being alone in your single man 0% tax corp. Or maybe some of us don't fit well into corp molds such as "be in this area" "participate in this activity" "gimme all ur taxes for uhhh - corp fund stuff, CEO BSNS". Then try joining a corp that doesn't do that. Jeez... If you actually tried looking, you'd find there are quite a few corps that are specifically "do what you want" for people who aren't into that kind of stuff.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:12:00 - [514] Pretty much what we do, no big agendas or plans right now, just learning the game, doing our thing, having some fun and earning some iskies. I'm sure if my friends and I have done it that there are other small social groups that have casual corps too.
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:22:00 - [515] Originally by: Mutnin Confirming that I will be collecting the tears tax.. No you wont, CCP will. They're the only ones whos benefiting from this. You may think your drinking tears but its really CCP's **, and soon youll be eating their ** when they tax your style of play.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:31:00 - [516] Originally by: Michwich Originally by: Mutnin Confirming that I will be collecting the tears tax.. No you wont, CCP will. They're the only ones whos benefiting from this. You may think your drinking tears but its really CCP's **, and soon youll be eating their ** when they tax your style of play. Now just to be clear, what style of play would you be referring to there, do you mean anyone in a player corp or just those that like a playstyle different to your own?
Asuka Smith Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:39:00 - [517] Originally by: Michwich Originally by: Mutnin Confirming that I will be collecting the tears tax.. No you wont, CCP will. They're the only ones whos benefiting from this. You may think your drinking tears but its really CCP's **, and soon youll be eating their ** when they tax your style of play. See the thing is EVE is a PVP game so you are doing PVE exclusively you are doing it wrong. PVE exists to support PVP, so CCP is never going to punish me for PVPing but they will gladly punish you for PVEing if the ratio of PVE:PVP becomes off balance.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:47:00 - [518] Originally by: Asuka Smith Originally by: Michwich Originally by: Mutnin Confirming that I will be collecting the tears tax.. No you wont, CCP will. They're the only ones whos benefiting from this. You may think your drinking tears but its really CCP's **, and soon youll be eating their when they tax your style of play. See the thing is EVE is a PVP game** so you are doing PVE exclusively you are doing it wrong. PVE exists to support PVP, so CCP is never going to punish me for PVPing but they will gladly punish you for PVEing if the ratio of PVE:PVP becomes off balance. Bolded the part where your 100% wrong. EVE is a SANDBOX, game. Last I checked CCP's stance on the meaning of sandbox was you could do anything you damn well pleased as long as it was within the TOS/EULA. Them trying to push people into player corps is not a sandbox. CCP is telling me, my style of play is valued less than a PVP players (even though I have a PVP alt) style of play. CCP is telling me the sandbox they are so proud of isn't really a sandbox at all, that they just call it that (lies.. nothing new here from CCP, remember the feature that became a bug and those who used it were suddenly called exploiters?). If this game is a Sandbox as CCP says, that means it is open to ALL styles of play, not ONE style of play. Religion: My way is the only way, your way is evil. Convert to my way or I will kill you. Sandbox: All ways are good. Have fun. So which is it CCP? A sandbox or a religion? It can't be both. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.22 03:55:00 - [519] Originally by: Lotus Sutra CCP is telling me, my style of play is valued less than a PVP players (even though I have a PVP alt) style of play. CCP is telling me the sandbox they are so proud of isn't really a sandbox at all, that they just call it that (lies.. nothing new here from CCP, remember the feature that became a bug and those who used it were suddenly called exploiters?). Yes, playing solo in a multiplayer game is admittedly ridiculous and not going to be valued. It will not be as effective, profitable or efficient. If you want to play solo, play a single player game. Originally by: F15T0 If this game is a Sandbox as CCP says, that means it is open to ALL styles of play, not ONE style of play. All styles of play that make sense and WORK in a multiplayer game, fool. Originally by: F15T0 Religion: My way is the only way, your way is evil. Convert to my way or I will kill you. Sandbox: All ways are good. Have fun. Thanks for the completely random anti-religion rant. Originally by: F15T0 So which is it CCP? A sandbox or a religion? It can't be both. What? Are you trolling now? You are probably one of the most annoyingly melodramatic posters I've seen recently.
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.22 04:05:00 - [520] Originally by: Asuka Smith Originally by: Michwich Originally by: Mutnin Confirming that I will be collecting the tears tax.. No you wont, CCP will. They're the only ones whos benefiting from this. You may think your drinking tears but its really CCP's **, and soon youll be eating their ** when they tax your style of play. See the thing is EVE is a PVP game so you are doing PVE exclusively you are doing it wrong. PVE exists to support PVP, so CCP is never going to punish me for PVPing but they will gladly punish you for PVEing if the ratio of PVE:PVP becomes off balance. No youre not doing it wrong because in reality there is no such thing as PVE in MMO's. As soon as people are in the mix its PVP. What form of PVP people prefer is the only difference. It would be like saying the only form of competition is UFC, or war. Wrong, theres many forms of competition that dont involve physical contact - see life.Unfortunately this games short on some. Even in the most carebear games you have PVP going on, people competing for the fattest wallet, or the ****iest outfit, or the most friends, whatever... THATS PVP. Same in EVE. Theres arguably many styles of PVP, theres many ways to play Eve, not surprisingly asking one side to play something they dont want to wont go over well, just like asking a pirate to "trade better" to get back at that hauler flaunting billions of isk in his poor face. They dont want to, so why pick one side over the other? And thats the careful balancing act CCP's gotta do. Im not getting paid so im not giving you the answer.

Aethrwolf Caldari Home for Wayward Gamers	Posted - 2009.09.22 04:13:00 - [521] This only looks like a stick, because CCP is taking away one of the carrots that the NPC corps have. Honestly, I never understood why there wasnt a tax in the npc corps, since I have seen it stated that they were intended for newer players to get settled into a play style before they joined/created a player corp and the taxes dont hit the smaller bounties and rewards that most new players bring in. I do however realize that a change where there was not one for so long seems like a punishment.. I dont agree, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. In all honesty, I have spent time in an NPC corp, but I had non game related reasons for it. More changes to NPC corps should be made that will mostly seem like sticks at first, but really just level the playing field for recruitment to player corps.. well actually give PC's a slight edge. 1. Missions only for the npc corp you are in.. agents from the competition wont talk to you. 2. taxes should be dynamic.. set to several % above the average player corp tax. updated weekly. 3. players should be able to choose what npc corp to join after they finish a corp tutorial in the starter schools. 4. more a PC change.. player corp standings should count for agent availability, refine taxes and jump clone availability. (JUST implementing this would be a massive carrot for player corp recruitment that would work much better than the current tax implementation) Absolutely everything is subjective.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.22 04:19:00 - [522] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 22/09/2009 04:21:15 Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Lotus Sutra CCP is telling me, my style of play is valued less than a PVP players (even though I have a PVP alt) style of play. CCP is telling me the sandbox they are so proud of isn't really a sandbox at all, that they just call it that (lies.. nothing new here from CCP, remember the feature that became a bug and those who used it were suddenly called exploiters?). Yes, playing solo in a multiplayer game is admittedly ridiculous and not going to be valued. It will not be as effective, profitable or efficient. If you want to play solo, play a single player game. Why is it ridiculous? Because YOU are not intelligent enough to figure out how to do it, and enjoy it? What makes you think my play style is not effective, profitable and efficient? I make very good isk and keep my characters in everything they need. If I get a bad run of PVP with my alt (it happens), I buy a GTC and fix him up if my other accounts have been a bit slow. If sales and manufacturing have been good I just transfer a bit of isk to him from them and i'm off again. So how is MY work less Efficient? Profitable? Effective? ALL my efforts go to ME. 100% efficiency. I do the work. I reap the benefits. I don't have to share my work and efforts with anyone else unless I choose to. Unlike the peons in player corps that have no hanger access, no wallet access and no idea what and where their isk is going and doing. I know where EVERY cent of my isk is going. WHAT it is doing, and WHEN it is doing it. Can you say that about your isk in a corp? What about when your CEO or a Director decides to clean out your corp and leave with everything? Or a player with hanger access does that? Or wallet access? Or someone drops your corps POS and runs off with it? YOU have no control over that. And lose your isk because of it. I have 100% control over my isk (except on my PVP alt, who every now and then finds himself blobbed, outgunned or simply out fought by a better pvpr) Do explain in detail how you have come to determine how my play style is less efficient, profitable and effective based on exactly zero knowledge of my characters and what they do. If your not smart enough to figure out how to work a MMO solo, don't cry foul when someone else is. Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Lotus Sutra If this game is a Sandbox as CCP says, that means it is open to ALL styles of play, not ONE style of play. All styles of play that make sense and WORK in a multiplayer game, fool.play. My style makes sense and works in a multiplayer game. Fool. If your unable to do it, don't insult those of us who are able to do what your incapable of. Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Lotus Sutra Religion: My way is the only way, your way is evil. Convert to my way or I will kill you. Sandbox: All ways are good. Have fun. Thanks for the completely random anti-religion rant. Thanks for completely ignoring the analogy it made when your unable to argue it. Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Lotus Sutra So which is it CCP? A sandbox or a religion? It can't be both. What? Are you trolling now? You are probably one of the most annoyingly melodramatic posters I've seen recently. I am not trolling, Your unable to see how anyone can possible play an MMO solo. You are incapable of seeing that an MMO allows for many styles of play and seem to think that there is no way MY style of play can even be possible or worthwhile. You fail to consider that for ME it is possible. For ME it is worthwhile. And for ME it works. If YOU are unable to manage it, that is YOUR problem caused by your own failings. Not mine. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
buttesauce	Posted - 2009.09.22 04:19:00 - [523] the bottom line is that 11% tax is a tiny amount to pay for complete immunity to wardecs
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.22 05:14:00 - [524] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 22/09/2009 05:16:22 Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 22/09/2009 05:14:57 Originally by: buttesauce the bottom line is that 11% tax is a tiny amount to pay for complete immunity to wardecs The bottom line is that CCP has added yet another "rookie tax" - something that reduces the fun-factor for beginners, and makes it harder to get established. The game already has "learning" skills; attribute implants; implant loss when you're podKilled; no rookie-friendly entry path to PvP; no natural path to informal group (fleet) play; a huge disincentive to joining player Corps in the form of the basic rule of EvE - "trust no-one"; ..... it just goes on and on. Note that these aren't things that make the game challenging or interesting to play. Each one is just stupid and annoying - the kind of BS you put up with on the way to having some fun in the game. To balance this, there is one thing that's rookie-friendly in EvE: the Rookie Help channel. CCP should be removing things that make the game unfriendly to Rookies, not adding new ones. How many steps in the wrong direction should I wait for? One? Two? Five? One stupid suggestion that doesn't actually make it into the game? In hindsight, I wished I'd left WoW when Arena was announced, since it was obviously going to destroy the kind of PvP I enjoyed.
Mikayla Grey Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.22 05:15:00 - [525] Edited by: Mikayla Grey on 22/09/2009 05:18:58 Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Altie McName Originally by: Ukucia In addition, you're ignoring the folks who just prefer to be lone wolves. Nothing screams lone wolf more than being alone in your single man 0% tax corp. why the hell would someone who considers themselves a "lone wolf" play an MMORPG in the first place? There is no single player game that adequately simulates a real market used by real humans. The folks playing the industrial or trader roles in the game don't have much need of a corp, yet need other humans to create a vibrant market. Why are you crying if you are a trader or industrialist. You wont be affected and can still stay in your bubble. Originally by: Gsptlsnz To balance this, there is one thing that's rookie-friendly in EvE: the Rookie Help channel. CCP should be removing things that make the game unfriendly to Rookies, not adding new ones. I'd say there is nothing worse for a new player than the old players in npc corp chat.
Carlo Curiosus Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.22 05:18:00 - [526] For what it's worth (as a new player), 11% tax is going to make no difference at all as to whether I stay in an NPC corp or not.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2009.09.22 05:29:00 - [527] Pondering ideas, carrots and sticks and bags of ... Suppose that, after 90 days in game, you get booted from the NPC corp into a corp called "Freelancers". Everyone gets tossed into this bucket. Now, Freelancers can war dec each other, but no one can remote rep a Freelancer or Concord will come pay them a visit. Now a PC corp and friends has more value. Immunity is gone, it dangerous to be all alone, but not too dangerous, but if you want to go it alone, you can. As for 1 man corps, make new corp creation take 72 hours and leaving a corp with less than 4 characters takes 72 hours too. Flame suit powers activate! The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.22 06:11:00 - [528] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 22/09/2009 06:14:16 Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 22/09/2009 06:13:39 Originally by: Mikayla Grey Originally by: Gsptlsnz To balance this, there is one thing that's rookie-friendly in EvE: the Rookie Help channel. CCP should be removing things that make the game unfriendly to Rookies, not adding new ones. I'd say there is nothing worse for a new player than the old players in npc corp chat. Do you mean the ones who drop in with their alts and try to trick rookies into lowSec so they can gank them? BTW - there is another thing that's good for Rookies in EvE, but it's nor dur to CCP: EvE University. People don't join player Corps because it's way to hard to find one that has someting to offer, matches your interests, and isn't looking for slaves. The Corps are there of course, but who wants to try out hundreds of identical-sounding Corps? It wastes far more time than even this stupid tax would. This is not an easy problem for CCP to deal with, but it cannot be solved by penalties.
Altie McName	Posted - 2009.09.22 06:30:00 - [529] Originally by: Gsptlsnz EDIT: Adding the other thing in EvE that's obviously rookie-friendly (no thanks to CCP though): EvE University. I know right!? I mean without CCP making this game, and people making EVE Uni. there couldn't be any way for noobs to learn the game
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.22 07:15:00 - [530] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Originally by: Asuka Smith See the thing is EVE is a PVP game so you are doing PVE exclusively you are doing it wrong. Bolded the part where your 100% wrong. EVE is a SANDBOX, game. Last I checked CCP's stance on the meaning of sandbox was you could do anything you damn well pleased as long as it was within the TOS/EULA. Being a sandbox doesn't keep EVE from also being a PvP game. There is exactly one activity in EVE that is not competitive in any way and therefore not subject to PvP: running missions. Apparently, CCP have decided that this single non-PvP activity, when done in the context of being buffered with additionally PvP protection, is something that shouldn't be quite as effective. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.22 07:32:00 - [531] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Lotus Sutra Originally by: Asuka Smith See the thing is EVE is a PVP game so you are doing PVE exclusively you are doing it wrong. Bolded the part where your 100% wrong. EVE is a SANDBOX, game. Last I checked CCP's stance on the meaning of sandbox was you could do anything you damn well pleased as long as it was within the TOS/EULA. Being a sandbox doesn't keep EVE from also being a PvP game. There is exactly one activity in EVE that is not competitive in any way and therefore not subject to PvP: running missions. Apparently, CCP have decided that this single non-PvP activity, when done in the context of being buffered with additionally PvP protection, is something that shouldn't be quite as effective. Tell that to the ninja salvagers and looters that come into my missions where they think can take what 'I' consider mine (yes I am very aware of and accept CCP's stance on wrecks etc, I have no problem with their stance, but I still consider the wrecks I make, mine until I leave the mission, leaving them behind for someone to take if they want). I get competitive with them about it. Before they can get to my wrecks, I destroy them all. Small cost to me once in a while for additional ammo used in a mission, but some of the comments I get, and some of the mails I have gotten are wonderful examples of impotent emorage. I would disagree with you about there being only ONE non-pvp activity that isn't competitive, although Ninja salvagers might compete slightly with one another, their risk -vs- reward is even lower than a mission runners. That is why I enjoy shooting my wrecks when they come in. I don't bother looting or salvaging them usually. I just love watching them get ****ed at me for blowing up wrecks that I would have left behind anyway. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.22 07:47:00 - [532] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Tell that to the ninja salvagers and looters that come into my missions where they think can take what 'I' consider mine (yes I am very aware of and accept CCP's stance on wrecks etc, I have no problem with their stance, but I still consider the wrecks I make, mine until I leave the mission, leaving them behind for someone to take if they want). I get competitive with them about it. Yes, you compete with them, because the salvaging profession — unlike mission-running — is competitive. It is also not affected by the tax. The loot is slightly competitive too, but also entirely optional… and (surprise!) is not affected by the tax. Quote: I would disagree with you about there being only ONE non-pvp activity that isn't competitive, although Ninja salvagers might compete slightly with one another, their risk -vs- reward is even lower than a mission runners. Yes? And? What's the other example? Surely not salvaging since it's an inherently competitive (i.e. pvp) activity. Their competition isn't each other — it's you, the mission runner, who do a spot of salvaging on the side. Also, if you want to talk about risk:reward, think of it like this: the risk in running missions under the aegis of NPC corp protection is nil. Thus the rewards are being reduced to match. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 11:34:00 - [533] Originally by: Asuka Smith See the thing is EVE is a PVP game so you are doing PVE exclusively you are doing it wrong. omg somebody tell Chribba. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Bad Brown	Posted - 2009.09.22 11:44:00 - [534] This only highlights the fact that no0bs are inferior to me. Please increase the tax. I wonÆt be happy until you take the roof from over their heads and bread from their childrens mouths. Or, you could try and model the game on something that isnÆt so much like RL. Just, another Government tactic as I see it. The populace is doing what they prefer and not what you want them to do, so force them through taxes (its for their own good to be hurt). I wonder if itÆs more fun playing the game or playing at being Demi Gods. I guess the latter. Still, if it gets loners into corps fine. If it messes with peoples alts boo.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.22 11:48:00 - [535] Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: Asuka Smith See the thing is EVE is a PVP game so you are doing PVE exclusively you are doing it wrong. omg somebody tell Chribba. He already knows. That's how he has gotten to where he is: by beating everyone else at his game. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.22 11:49:00 - [536] Originally by: Tuscanspeed Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Originally by: Julian Lynq It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles. These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point. Then how about focusing on the point that this change will do nothing to achieve the goal you're shooting for and will only **** people off? Bo ho, go cry some more, you big baby. This is a realistic and welcome change. Is it so bad and unthinkable that your NPC CEO wants some taxes? Really? Do you want someone to hold your hand as well perhaps? This promotes setting up your own corp with your own rules and taxes. It makes for more interesting stuff. A few noobs in an NPC corp might band together to make a tax less/lower tax corp, thus taking one step in the direction of more immersion and engaging game play. Yes, there will be war decs, but thatÆs part of the game. And itÆs more reason to get out of empire if you dislike it (not that 0.0 is any friendlierà). All in all this is only a "hit" to the carebears in NPC corps that only grind isk, and they will likly continue since 89% of a lot of isk is still a lot, and if not, maybe they make one man corps and continue on. I for one spent 10 days in a noob corp when I started EVE, it was dull. I met some new guys, and joined the corp. Then began my fun in EVE, and here a long time later we are still together, and we have pulled of some pretty sweet things. Our corp has taxes as well, and we use those taxes to better our corp, and thus better our own gameplay. All in all this is just a nudge in the direction of making and setting up small communities, and I for one think it will be pretty sweet. We should likely get more interaction between the hoards of players now currently residing in empire NPC corps, and make empire more active, and hopefully low sec and 0.0 more active as well. One really only gets to know the game fully when not soloing it, and this new change promotes this. So go back to your corner and cry some more, your tears only fuel us. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Archa Caldari Bushwhackers Rough Necks	Posted - 2009.09.22 11:58:00 - [537] more tears please.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 11:58:00 - [538] Edited by: Hamshoe on 22/09/2009 12:04:21 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs I for one spent 10 days in a noob corp when I started EVE, it was dull. Oh jeez! Well that changes everything. You sir, are the gold standard of navel gazing. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:04:00 - [539] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: Asuka Smith See the thing is EVE is a PVP game so you are doing PVE exclusively you are doing it wrong. omg somebody tell Chribba. He already knows. That's how he has gotten to where he is: by beating everyone else at his game. So... he wins by doing it wrong? Mad props, as it were. But that does explain the support for the tax: so many people afraid of getting beaten. Unless you're saying that PvE is PvP, in which case the initial complaint is utter nonsense. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:06:00 - [540] Originally by: Hamshoe So... he wins by doing it wrong? Mad props, as it were. But that does explain the support for the tax: so many people afraid of getting beaten. Unless you're saying that PvE is PvP, in which case the initial complaint is utter nonsense. No, I'm saying that he wins by PvPing everyone into submission. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:09:00 - [541] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Hamshoe So... he wins by doing it wrong? Mad props, as it were. But that does explain the support for the tax: so many people afraid of getting beaten. Unless you're saying that PvE is PvP, in which case the initial complaint is utter nonsense. No, I'm saying that he wins by PvPing everyone into submission. .. through PvE. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Asuka Smith Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:10:00 - [542] I am honestly shocked and appalled at how many people are telling me I am wrong when I say EVE is a PVP game, CCP waited FAR too long on this change.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:10:00 - [543] Originally by: Hamshoe Edited by: Hamshoe on 22/09/2009 12:04:21 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs I for one spent 10 days in a noob corp when I started EVE, it was dull. Oh jeez! Well that changes everything. You sir, are the gold standard of navel gazing. Yes, my opinion cahnges everything. And yes, I found noob corps to be dull. You where more or less alone, and nothing happend, its only purpouse to me, was to find a player driven corp. I see you failed to grasp what I was trying to say. But I guess you are just dense and only able to try and come up with personal insults. Go cry some more, it seems to be what you do best (Did you have a point to your post, cause it only seemed you felt insulted? ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
PostWithYourAlt	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:13:00 - [544] This Thread keeps being dragged off topic into a hatred PVE vrs. PVP war in a way that makes the pvp crowd seem blinded against what the real issue is. CCP Eris and CCP Soundwave(as it seems) are proposing a fix to a symptom instead of proposing a fix to the yet not even determined cause. The "fix" will naturally not have the desired effect and thus is not even a fix but rather just a "random change". The critic is that we as players want CCP Gamedesigners to act thoughtfull and make changes to the game that actually mean something. Actual fixes that fix actual problems. All the "I am PVP" and "I am PVE" attitutes aside, everyone will agree that the game does not profit from half thought through unmeaningfull changes. You should all be thankfull to the guys raising this in demonstration of their protest to CCP regarding this kind of workflow within their game design deparment. The next miscue "fix" could be impacting you too.
Cadde Gallente FireworX	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:13:00 - [545] Boohoo! Do the math, compare 0.0 ratting with running missions and you should quickly (if you do it right) find that 0.0 ratting and mission running on average give you the same isk per hour ratio. The big difference here is the RISK vs REWARD factor. Being in a NPC corp makes you invulnerable to EVERYTHING except a suicide gank. No matter if you are in a corp or not, losing your ship in a mission does NOT count towards the RISK vs REWARD ratio, as it is right now that can be easily overcome with a proper fitting and will remain the same until CCP decides to change it up. In 0.0 you face more than just the rats blowing your ship to a thousand pieces. You have roaming gangs, blobs, invasions and even solo PvP'ers looking for your stuff and tears. So how is a 11% tax in any way a bad thing after you consider how horribly unbalanced the RISK vs REWARD ratio is between empire and 0.0? I for one would appreciate any change that makes empire activity worth less than half of what it is today. Give every single person an incentive to seek fame and fortune where the risks are higher but the rewards tenfold. I don't see where the fun in gathering ISK for the sake of gathering ISK is. What will you do with all your isk and faction fitted gear when you get tired of doing the same thing every day with the only goal being gathering ISK? Sure, i can admit i like gathering ISK as well, but i do it with a goal of starting a corp that will be competitive amongst the bigger badder corps out there. I could just as easily start now but i don't see the gain (apart from PvP fun) in doing so. I want to conquer and to conquer i need a starting capital. With the upcoming changes to sov, CCP are opening a lot of new doors for those who wanna gain access to the riches of less secure space. But in the meantime they also need to decrease the profits of high security space. Setting up this 11% tax on NPC corps is just the first step. Wait until they decrease the bonties on your mission rats and your LP gain for being in highsec is not the same as being in "less sec" and the rewards should be in line with what you risk. Risk 100 mil for X amount of hours and you should gain 200 mil over the same period. The X amount of hours should be in direct relationship with the amount of time you can survive. That is, if you make 200 mil where you invested 100 mil and go pop after 30 minutes in 0.0, that is just fine, becuase you still have a 100 mil gain and you did it in 30 minutes. If you now do the same in high sec you should have to spend 600 minutes (6 hours) to gain that same 100 mil and your 100 mil investment should "normally" go pop after those 6 hours. If you pop faster than 6 hours you need to learn how to avoid it. If you don't pop then good, you have learned how not to go pop and can now move on to more lucrative deals. (low sec and null sec) Staying put in "dull space" is just like saying: I am fine with not having fun and paying just as much real money as those who actually have fun. Let me tell you, if you enjoy what you are doing right now in your NPC corp then you have no clue on what you are missing OUTSIDE of that NPC corp. And not all player corps are scam/slave/grief corps. All you need to do is talk to those who know where the good ones are. It all begins with trust, who you trust is up to you but having IRL friends is a good start. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Cassiopeia Draco	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:18:00 - [546] Originally by: Hamshoe So... he wins by doing it wrong? Mad props, as it were. But that does explain the support for the tax: so many people afraid of getting beaten. Unless you're saying that PvE is PvP, in which case the initial complaint is utter nonsense. PvE is not PvP, there is a distinction, PvP is where you compete with other players, PvE is competing against computer run ships (serpentis, Sansha, sleepers, et al). Consider Mining is a PvP as you are competing for resources with other players. When was the last time a mission runner 'competed' for a mission with another player, about the closest a mission runner gets to PvP is with ninja salvagers who compete for the salvage.
Neon Delight	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:19:00 - [547] Taxes don't encourage players to "go here" and "do this" or "get out" of npc corps. New content, more dynamic game play and cool graphics are a far better "carrot", as CCP knows. Tax will be a non-issue for mission runners faster than you can strap on the tin foil hat and say "What, raising my taxes to give a bail out to what player run bank(s)?" Ambulation will be the big thing to get players out exploring the corners of the EvE universe they don't care about right now. So long as it includes more than just "station" environments, and eventually includes things like walking around in your own ship, walking around on planetary surfaces -- THAT will get folks out of Empire.
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:26:00 - [548] Originally by: Neon Delight Taxes don't encourage players to "go here" and "do this" or "get out" of npc corps. New content, more dynamic game play and cool graphics are a far better "carrot", as CCP knows. Tax will be a non-issue for mission runners faster than you can strap on the tin foil hat and say "What, raising my taxes to give a bail out to what player run bank(s)?" Ambulation will be the big thing to get players out exploring the corners of the EvE universe they don't care about right now. So long as it includes more than just "station" environments, and eventually includes things like walking around in your own ship, walking around on planetary surfaces -- THAT will get folks out of Empire. 11% taxes to the NPC or 0 - 100% taxes to you and your fellow players? This, in addition to all the awesome features that already exist is not encouragement enough? Sure, thoose who will not care and still be NPC will not care and pay for the 11%, and does that matter? No. They pay 11% for protection basically. If they want to make the most isk, they set up one man corp, or band togheter. This also makes 0.0 alliance mission alts cry a little bit. Either they loose 11% of the income, or they choose to take some more risk for more rewards. Although one man corps have little to none risk anyways.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:27:00 - [549] Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: Tippia No, I'm saying that he wins by PvPing everyone into submission. .. through PvE. No. By very definition, you can't beat someone through PvE (unless we're talking about a high-score system). Cornering markets, beating everyone to juicy resources, providing services to other players — none of these are PvE. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:35:00 - [550] Originally by: PostWithYourAlt This Thread keeps being dragged off topic into a hatred PVE vrs. PVP war in a way that makes the pvp crowd seem blinded against what the real issue is. CCP Eris and CCP Soundwave(as it seems) are proposing a fix to a symptom instead of proposing a fix to the yet not even determined cause. The "fix" will naturally not have the desired effect and thus is not even a fix but rather just a "random change". The critic is that we as players want CCP Gamedesigners to act thoughtfull and make changes to the game that actually mean something. Actual fixes that fix actual problems. All the "I am PVP" and "I am PVE" attitutes aside, everyone will agree that the game does not profit from half thought through unmeaningfull changes. You should all be thankfull to the guys raising this in demonstration of their protest to CCP regarding this kind of workflow within their game design deparment. The next miscue "fix" could be impacting you too.

Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:44:00 - [551] Originally by: Asuka Smith I am honestly shocked and appalled at how many people are telling me I am wrong when I say EVE is a PVP game, CCP waited FAR too long on this change. Shocked and appalled So you think the PvE content was some kind of oversight? It just happened to show up? Tell me this: would a 1% change in your corporate tax rate get you to change corps? Will dozens, if not hundreds, of one player corps increase "interaction"? The support for this is bumper-sticker reasoning: a bunch of hollow slogans and pantomime indignation. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
sxndy Gallente Snuff inc	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:45:00 - [552] Originally by: Asuka Smith I am honestly shocked and appalled at how many people are telling me I am wrong when I say EVE is a PVP game, CCP waited FAR too long on this change. CCP were waiting on this change? I want to speak to their boss ....... NOW!
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:51:00 - [553] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs I see you failed to grasp what I was trying to say. But I guess you are just dense and only able to try and come up with personal insults. Go cry some more, it seems to be what you do best More to the point, you failed to say anything beyond, "I like this" as though that had meaning beyond yourself. You'll forgive me if I don't find that particularly compelling. btw, I love the recursive bit there, feeling a bit dense? Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2009.09.22 12:58:00 - [554] Originally by: Hamshoe a bunch of hollow slogans and pantomime indignation. In a nutshell the NPC crowd does this with 'how dare they tax my mission running income' Player Corp crowd counters with 'welcome to reality'. PVE probalby since the release of eve, and was there to give new players a way of building wallets, before they went into the big bad world of EvE, NOT to encourage endless grind for 0 risk, and a endless supply of isk. PvE missions are 0 risk, especially if you read the Eve-survival guides, on my main I've lost 4 ships in 3 years doing missions, 1 BS (mega), 1 BC (Myrm) and 2 Cruisers (both Thorax). Two due to lag/disconnects, one due to being distracted and i forgot to clear the scrambler, and the final one due a poor tank and bravado. In PvP over the same period I've lost 30 times that number on same account.
Hythloday Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:00:00 - [555] A summary of the reactions to this development 2+ year old newbcorp campers: Ohgod this will Ruin the GameÖ as we are all made the slaves of player corporations, and constantly wardecced by every chicken high-sec pirate in the game. Why can't you all just leave us alone, we don't want to cooperate or compete with other players in a persistent online universe. How dare CCP disrespect my gamestyle of essentially paying a monthly fee to play a single player game with a built in IRC channel full of newbs and alts. My gamestyle is sacred and cannot be changed, regardless of the number of unpopular changes that CCP have forced on those who have actually played the game outside of an NPC corp that I have welcomed with open arms (warp to zero). etc etc etc. Genuine new players who belong in newb corps: My ship just turned into an egg, did I level up? What tax? What's a corp? Everyone else in Eve: 'bout time.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:03:00 - [556] Originally by: Hythloday A pretty biased summary not reflecting people¦s true issue: Change does not achieve the goal.
Doddy The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:07:00 - [557] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Hythloday A pretty biased summary not reflecting people¦s true issue: Change does not achieve the goal. He was certainly reading the same thread as me.
Cassiopeia Draco	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:11:00 - [558] Originally by: Doddy Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Hythloday A pretty biased summary not reflecting people¦s true issue: Change does not achieve the goal. He was certainly reading the same thread as me. And me, seemed about the right mix of sentiments.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:17:00 - [559] Quote: Change does not achieve the goal. = bad change.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:18:00 - [560] Originally by: Avalon Champion Originally by: Hamshoe a bunch of hollow slogans and pantomime indignation. In a nutshell the NPC crowd does this with 'how dare they tax my mission running income' Player Corp crowd counters with 'welcome to reality'. PVE probalby since the release of eve, and was there to give new players a way of building wallets, before they went into the big bad world of EvE, NOT to encourage endless grind for 0 risk, and a endless supply of isk. PvE missions are 0 risk, especially if you read the Eve-survival guides, on my main I've lost 4 ships in 3 years doing missions, 1 BS (mega), 1 BC (Myrm) and 2 Cruisers (both Thorax). Two due to lag/disconnects, one due to being distracted and i forgot to clear the scrambler, and the final one due a poor tank and bravado. In PvP over the same period I've lost 30 times that number on same account. So, to your points: 1.) Even if we accept your premise, mission running is obviously not "0 risk", that's a false claim. 2.) This is a game, reality is whatever they make it. "Welcome to reality" is meaningless as an argument. 3.) Missions are obviously not there exclusively to give new players a chance to build their wallets, otherwise it wouldn't be so profitable and there wouldn't be an issue. Finally and more importantly, this does little if anything to advance the stated goal of the change. It merely appeases a jealous constituency. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?

Doddy The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:18:00 - [561] Originally by: Michwich As soon as people are in the mix its PVP. What form of PVP people prefer is the only difference. It would be like saying the only form of competition is UFC, or war. Wrong, theres many forms of competition that dont involve physical contact - see life.Unfortunately this games short on some. You are confused about what PvP is. Pvp is where two players can effect each other. Competing for wallet size is no more PVP than any score in any single player game. The only PvP mission runners participate in is through using the market where they compete on prices when they buy/sell, and that is a highly passiveform of pvp (unless they are a trader on the side but then they aren't pure mission runners). It would be different if agents or missions were limited in some way (number of players an agent can have on a mission at a time) and players had to compete to get them, which is how i think the mission system should work tbh.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:20:00 - [562] Originally by: Julian Lynq Quote: Change does not achieve the goal. = bad change. …except that this very thread proves you wrong. It's just that you assume a different goal, and then extrapolate the chance of success from there. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:20:00 - [563] Originally by: Avalon Champion In a nutshell the NPC crowd does this with 'how dare they tax my mission running income' I think you should look closer at a lot of the arguments. A majority is not saying what you claim they are. They're saying that this is not a solution that'll solve whatever the problem is! First of all, CCP has not defined what problem they're trying to solve. That people are in NPC corp is not an inherent problem, but just a symptom. The real problem is somewhere else.... Is it that missions pay too much? Is it that pirates have too few corp to wardec? CCP hasn't told us.... Secondly, while this may move a lot of people out of NPC corp, most of them will move into the WRONG type of player corp, ie. their own little 1-man world. These players will now be out of the social interaction in the NPC corp, which is where people usually meet up and decide to form player corp together WHEN THEY ARE READY! In short, the problem is not defined, and the 'solution' will have much bigger detrimental effects than what small positive effect there may be.... Try to get a perspective.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:23:00 - [564] Originally by: Hythloday Why can't you all just leave us alone, we don't want to cooperate or compete with other players in a persistent online universe. Although you may find this shocking, interacting with you is not one of the better features of EVE. Sorry. If NPC Corps are the sweet and happy life, why isn't everyone doing it? Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Hythloday Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:27:00 - [565] Edited by: Hythloday on 22/09/2009 13:32:38 Originally by: Julian Lynq Quote: Change does not achieve the goal. = bad change. Lets not get confused here. You don't like the change, but all this has any bearing on is your own response to the change, it has nothing to do with the overall statistical change in the behavior of the player base. There will be those who are spurred by this to find good player corps to join. There will be those who go and create their own 1-2 man corps in which to carry on doing what they were doing before the tax. There will be those who, out of spite, choose to stay right where they are despite earning 11% less money. You can't say that just because you don't like the change, or just because YOU don't plan to alter your behaviour, that the changes will achieve absolutely nothing. The change isn't aimed at YOU personally. Originally by: Kerfira Secondly, while this may move a lot of people out of NPC corp, most of them will move into the WRONG type of player corp, ie. their own little 1-man world. These players will now be out of the social interaction in the NPC corp, which is where people usually meet up and decide to form player corp together WHEN THEY ARE READY! Try not to imply that those who form one man corps are going to trap themselves. We have recruitment forums and channels for when they get bored of the solitude.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:28:00 - [566] Originally by: Doddy The only PvP mission runners participate in is through using the market where they compete on prices when they buy/sell, and that is a highly passiveform of pvp (unless they are a trader on the side but then they aren't pure mission runners). Or in short, mission runners do participate in PvP it's just the wrong kind? This becomes less and less about player interaction, and more about control. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Gunnanmon Gallente Imperial Syndicate Forces The Laughing Men	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:31:00 - [567] Christ with this thread Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:33:00 - [568] Originally by: Hythloday There will be those who are spurred by this to find good player corps to join. Noone will go find a player corp to join because of a net income decrease of something between 3 and 5%. People join player corps because they want to socially interact, not so they can earn 5% more income- what a bad corp would that be that¦d attract theese kinds of players?
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:33:00 - [569] Originally by: Hythloday There will be those who are spurred by this to find good player corps to join. How many who wouldn't have done so anyway? I don't think you can say, any more than you can say it will make any difference at all. It's just human nature. Even in active war zones (silly real world comparison, I know) generally less than 5% of a population chooses to move. People are much more likely to just sit and see what fate brings. Would a 1% change in the tax rate be enough to move you, or would it take something else? Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:38:00 - [570] Edited by: Tippia on 22/09/2009 13:40:39 Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: Doddy The only PvP mission runners participate in is through using the market where they compete on prices when they buy/sell, and that is a highly passiveform of pvp (unless they are a trader on the side but then they aren't pure mission runners). Or in short, mission runners do participate in PvP it's just the wrong kind? This becomes less and less about player interaction, and more about control. No. Mission runners still only participate in PvE. However, very few people are only mission runners (because that would get them nowhere, and fast) — they also dabble in trading, in salvaging, occasionally in manufacturing. All these other activities are PvP, but they are also different and separate activities. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:39:00 - [571] Originally by: Hythloday Try not to imply that those who form one man corps are going to trap themselves. We have recruitment forums and channels for when they get bored of the solitude. That is no substitute for getting to know people over a period (which is actually what goes on in the NPC corp) and deciding to go at it together, and you know it! The recruitment channels and forums are filled with scammers etc., not to mention that you have to trust that what people say in their 2 line commercial is true. It is NOT something to put forward as anywhere near being comparative to building a social relationship over time in the NPC corp. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:49:00 - [572] And still the tears continue to flow like that of the yellow river. As I said before it is about time you solo monkies coughed up for your protection, now we are more equal.
Quinn Foute	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:50:00 - [573] This Thread tl-dr After naptraining every1 in their own territory and building big stagnating powerblocks PvPers now need to seek their targets in empire NPCCorps
Hythloday Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:53:00 - [574] Edited by: Hythloday on 22/09/2009 13:53:42 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Hythloday Try not to imply that those who form one man corps are going to trap themselves. We have recruitment forums and channels for when they get bored of the solitude. That is no substitute for getting to know people over a period (which is actually what goes on in the NPC corp) and deciding to go at it together, and you know it! The recruitment channels and forums are filled with scammers etc., not to mention that you have to trust that what people say in their 2 line commercial is true. It is NOT something to put forward as anywhere near being comparative to building a social relationship over time in the NPC corp. The first corp I joined I did so the way you described. It was a lot of fun. Then I got bored with kicking around in empire and I picked an alliance using the recruitment forums. That was even more fun. Then they got kicked out of their space and I joined another alliance, pretty much because they were nearby. Then I took a break and joined a pirate corp I found on the recruitment forums. It was all fun, I haven't joined a corp that I ended up hating, and guess what, even if I was in a corp that I hated being in, I can quit and find another one. Originally by: Julian Lynq People join player corps because they want to socially interact, not so they can earn 5% more income- what a bad corp would that be that¦d attract theese kinds of players? Oh well then if its such an inconsequential change, why are so many people ***ing about it? Originally by:** Hamshoe How many who wouldn't have done so anyway? I don't think you can say, any more than you can say it will make any difference at all. It's just human nature. Even in active war zones (silly real world comparison, I know) generally less than 5% of a population chooses to move. People are much more likely to just sit and see what fate brings. Would a 1% change in the tax rate be enough to move you, or would it take something else? Well you know what, we can wait and see what happens, instead of simply not trying because we think we know everything about human nature. If it doesn't work, we can see what effect raising the tax has,, besides of course eliciting the usual spate of bawwing from the likes of you.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:57:00 - [575] Originally by: baltec1 As I said before it is about time you solo monkies coughed up for your protection, now we are more equal. And there you have it. Support for no reason other than the fact that you feel you can't compete, you need the help to feel more equal. Again, if it's the sweet and easy life why aren't you doing it yourself? Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Wang LeeMei United Kings DEFI4NT	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:58:00 - [576] Originally by: Hythloday Well you know what, we can wait and see what happens,... noo they cant wait they all are visionarys they all know what future will bring ... hype for the loss fly safe
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 13:59:00 - [577] Originally by: Hythloday Oh well then if its such an inconsequential change, why are so many people ***ing about it? Originally by:** PostWithYourAlt This Thread keeps being dragged off topic into a hatred PVE vrs. PVP war in a way that makes the pvp crowd seem blinded against what the real issue is. CCP Eris and CCP Soundwave(as it seems) are proposing a fix to a symptom instead of proposing a fix to the yet not even determined cause. The "fix" will naturally not have the desired effect and thus is not even a fix but rather just a "random change". The critic is that we as players want CCP Gamedesigners to act thoughtfull and make changes to the game that actually mean something. Actual fixes that fix actual problems. All the "I am PVP" and "I am PVE" attitutes aside, everyone will agree that the game does not profit from half thought through unmeaningfull changes. You should all be thankfull to the guys raising this in demonstration of their protest to CCP regarding this kind of workflow within their game design deparment. The next miscue "fix" could be impacting you too. This explains it well
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:00:00 - [578] Originally by: baltec1 And still the tears continue to flow like that of the yellow river. As I said before it is about time you solo monkies coughed up for your protection, now we are more equal. The point is that the solo guys will CONTINUE to be solo guys, all for the cost of 1.6m ISK it costs to create a 1-man corp.... If they get a 2m wardec, they ditch the 1-man corp, pay another 1.6m ISK and create another 1-man corp in 5 seconds. That 1.6m is recovered in tax-savings about 1 hour worth of L4 mission running, and the next wardec can't go into effect until 24 hours later. Into the bargain is also losing what interaction with other players they had in the NPC corp..... Hardly something that should be aimed for in an MMO High-sec DOES pay (way) too much, but instead of changing just one small little corner in a way that'll not affect that anyway, CCP should address the problem, not the symptom! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:04:00 - [579] Originally by: Hythloday Well you know what, we can wait and see what happens, instead of simply not trying because we think we know everything about human nature. If it doesn't work, we can see what effect raising the tax has,, besides of course eliciting the usual spate of bawwing from the likes of you. I don't think you honestly support the idea because you can't think of anything else. I think you can't get around to why you really support it. Again, would it work for you? It's an obvious fact of human nature. How many people sit around in countries with onerous tax rates rather than move somewhere else? How many people squat in refugee camps? This is not a difficult or particularly obscure concept. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Frank Horrigan	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:12:00 - [580] (Haven't replied before) ... Bout Damn Time.

baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:12:00 - [581] Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: baltec1 As I said before it is about time you solo monkies coughed up for your protection, now we are more equal. And there you have it. Support for no reason other than the fact that you feel you can't compete, you need the help to feel more equal. Again, if it's the sweet and easy life why aren't you doing it yourself? Lets see, because I can get access to a personal research and manufaturing tower in high sec, because I have lots of freinds who I mess around with, because I get access to 0.0, because I get backup if I need a hand with something, because I get access to "free" Leeroy ships, ect. Naturaly I pay towards this via a 10% corp tax and with donated loot that gets melted down and forged into more Leeroys. As I said, it is about time you payed for the services your NPC corp provides you.
Hythloday Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:15:00 - [582] Edited by: Hythloday on 22/09/2009 14:15:22 Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Hythloday Oh well then if its such an inconsequential change, This explains it well Yeah that posts a kind of a pointless sentiment. Eve has problems, some of them are so deeply ingrained that they will never ever ever be changed, all we can do is treat the symptoms. For example, gate camping... the cause of that is the game's travel system and world layout forcing players into gun range of other ships... that can be fixed by completely changing the game's travel systems so that they don't even nearly resemble what we have now... but the effects of such a huge change would be immeasurable on an established game and community, and we'd have to change a bunch of other stuff even to have a functioning game. Thats the kind of thing that could genuinely Ruin the GameÖ The best we can do is patch up the holes. If you want to address the 'causes' of problems, then pretty much your only practical option is make a new game from scratch. Welcome to the world of MMO development
Cassiopeia Draco	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:23:00 - [583] Edited by: Cassiopeia Draco on 22/09/2009 14:23:46 Edited by: Cassiopeia Draco on 22/09/2009 14:23:08 Originally by: Kerfira Into the bargain is also losing what interaction with other players they had in the NPC corp..... Hardly something that should be aimed for in an MMO You know just a thought, they could create a corp with the players they like interacting with in the NPC corp, and see where it goes, its not rocket science, or is it.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:23:00 - [584] Originally by: Hythloday you: the change is great I: the change doesn¦t fullfill the goal because {...} you: why is it bad if a change doesn¦t fullfill the goal ? I: here is why {...} you: but the change fullfills the goal
Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:27:00 - [585] Instead of crying many tears you guys should use the time to fly one additional mission per week to make even more money without any risk in your NPC corp. WTB lol-tax and 98% safety.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:30:00 - [586] I'm reading claims here that mission running in hi sec don't carry any real risk. Well, it just so happens that it carries as much risk as any other profession in Eve when you're good at it. Take for example gate camping with alts on other side of the gates watching for incoming threats. Some of you will argue that it does carry risk because there is the remote chance the camp might get a hot drop. That's akin to saying that mission running carries risk because you might get scrambled and killed by NPCs. Seriously, the chance of either of these happening is low if you're aware. So either there is risk in all professions in Eve or there's none. Stop using mission running as your escape goat because it's the one profession in Eve that'll bring you more free targets if CCP were to change it. EVERYONE in Eve minimizes their risk to virtually zero. When I used to rat in 0.0 and lo sec (yes, at one point I was stupid enough to rat and mine in lo sec ) I was never encountered by either a fair amount (usually it was me vs 3+) and never was I encountered by another mining/ratting ship (my osprey vs PVP Rapier of Death). Hell, my mining osprey wouldn't survive the one Rapier of the group piloted by much older players, much less a pack of 4 or more. So this bull that Mission running has no risk needs to stop. If you're good enough at it, no profession in Eve carries real risk. End of.
Hythloday Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:33:00 - [587] Edited by: Hythloday on 22/09/2009 14:33:36 Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Hythloday you: the change is great I: the change doesn¦t fullfill the goal because {...} you: why is it bad if a change doesn¦t fullfill the goal ? I: here is why {...} you: but the change fullfills the goal Me: Pretty much everyone who hasn't been in a newb corp for 2 years likes this idea. You: Well I don't like it and it won't work. Me: Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it won't work You: But it won't work because it only amounts to about 5% loss of income that won't motivate anyone to move into a player corp Me: If it's so inconsequential why is there so much whining? You: Because it doesn't address the underlying causes of the problems we have Me: Its impossible to address the underlying causes of problems in MMOs because so much stuff is built on them. The only practical course of action is to address the symptoms, or make a new game. You: <A synopses of a conversation that apparently happened in your imagination.>
Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:38:00 - [588] This will have zero effect on my wallet but imo CCP are just looking for ways to remove Isk from the game and claiming it is to encourage people to join player corps and promote interaction. As has been said, this won't persuade or force solo players into player corps. It will likely create thousands of 1 man corps that are even more solitary and isolated from other players than when they were in the NPC corp. Not everybody in an NPC corp is a macrominer/ isk farmer / never talks. There are lots of players sharing their knowledge and helping eachother. There are also a lot of 0.0 players/ losec players who have alts in them who are smart enough to just create their own corp and leave. This proposed change does NOTHING apart from inconvenience people and remove Isk from the game. Which is why I believe this is just an attempt to fight inflation.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:38:00 - [589] Originally by: baltec1 Lets see, because I can get access to a personal research and manufaturing tower in high sec, because I have lots of freinds who I mess around with, because I get access to 0.0, because I get backup if I need a hand with something, because I get access to "free" Leeroy ships, ect. Naturaly I pay towards this via a 10% corp tax and with donated loot that gets melted down and forged into more Leeroys. So in short, because you enjoy it more? So what's your beef with people who don't? This is a classic case of "My neighbor has two cows and I only want one. Someone should kill one of his cows so he doesn't have more than me". No one is stopping you from having all the fine services of an NPC corp, you're choosing not to take advantage and want others penalized so you can feel better about your choice. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:44:00 - [590] Edited by: baltec1 on 22/09/2009 14:45:08 Originally by: Hamshoe So in short, because you enjoy it more? So what's your beef with people who don't? This is a classic case of "My neighbor has two cows and I only want one. Someone should kill one of his cows so he doesn't have more than me". No one is stopping you from having all the fine services of an NPC corp, you're choosing not to take advantage and want others penalized so you can feel better about your choice. Works the both ways boyo. I pay taxes for my corps services yet your too good to pay taxes for the services provided for you?

Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:53:00 - [591] Originally by: Cassiopeia Draco You know just a thought, they could create a corp with the players they like interacting with in the NPC corp, and see where it goes, its not rocket science, or is it. And what if they're not ready for that yet? You know as well as I do that the 'well-meaning; old players will then tell them to get out of the NPC corp and form a 1-man corp because they'll save a lot of money in taxes... It is never a good idea to introduce something in an MMO that you KNOW will reduce social interaction. It goes against the whole concept of an MMO in fact.... Whatever the real problem is (CCP still haven't told us exactly WHAT the underlying problem is...), there are better solutions that'll get MORE players currently in NPC corp into REAL player corp, not just 1-man ones.... Note that I'm absolutely not AGAINST players getting out of NPC corp, but I think that doing so should be done in a way that benefits BOTH the players, AND the game, not be detrimental to both! Try to look further than your own nose, please! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:55:00 - [592] Originally by: baltec1 As I said before it is about time you solo monkies coughed up for your protection, now we are more equal. Show us on this doll where the solo monkies touched you.
BeyondRelief	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:56:00 - [593] Terrible Idea by CCP
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.22 14:58:00 - [594] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: baltec1 As I said before it is about time you solo monkies coughed up for your protection, now we are more equal. Show us on this doll where the solo monkies touched you. Here, here and round there. They were spider monkies
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:01:00 - [595] Originally by: baltec1 Works the both ways boyo. I pay taxes for my corps services yet your too good to pay taxes for the services provided for you? Actually, it doesn't. You choose[/i to pay those taxes in return for that whole list of advantages. We'll assume you understood the choice you made. A player in an NPC corp gives up those advantages for the lack of wardecs and no taxes. You choose, and now you're apparently not so satisfied with how your choice stacks up and feel folks should pay a similar tax rate [i]without those advantages. It's not the same at all. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:01:00 - [596] Do you think that by CCP making this change you'll hate us any less? Do you believe this will make you happier? Will this make you less envious of us? I think not. I think in a few months you'll still be bashing and trashing mission runners with even more zeal.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:04:00 - [597] Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: baltec1 Works the both ways boyo. I pay taxes for my corps services yet your too good to pay taxes for the services provided for you? Actually, it doesn't. You choose[/i to pay those taxes in return for that whole list of advantages. We'll assume you understood the choice you made. A player in an NPC corp gives up those advantages for the lack of wardecs and no taxes. You choose, and now you're apparently not so satisfied with how your choice stacks up and feel folks should pay a similar tax rate [i]without those advantages. It's not the same at all. And now CCP have fixed it so that you now pay for your immunity to wardecs. Seems fair to me since all of my stuff can be destroyed by a war dec. You now have a negetive to go along with that positive.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:08:00 - [598] Originally by: Hythloday Edited by: Hythloday on 22/09/2009 14:33:36 Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Hythloday you: the change is great I: the change doesn¦t fullfill the goal because {...} you: why is it bad if a change doesn¦t fullfill the goal ? I: here is why {...} you: but the change fullfills the goal Me: Pretty much everyone who hasn't been in a newb corp for 2 years likes this idea. You: Well I don't like it and it won't work. Me: Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it won't work You: But it won't work because it only amounts to about 5% loss of income that won't motivate anyone to move into a player corp Me: If it's so inconsequential why is there so much whining? You: Because it doesn't address the underlying causes of the problems we have Me: Its impossible to address the underlying causes of problems in MMOs because so much stuff is built on them. The only practical course of action is to address the symptoms, or make a new game. You: <A synopses of a conversation that apparently happened in your imagination.> #1 - Not everyone likes this change. I think its stupid, silly and will not address the issue the GM posted as the GOAL. #2 - What are the symptoms as you see them? Lets define the problem. completely glossing over the fact that we haven't identified that there is a problem. At least to my satisfaction... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Mikayla Grey Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:18:00 - [599] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Do you think that by CCP making this change you'll hate us any less? Do you believe this will make you happier? Will this make you less envious of us? I think not. I think in a few months you'll still be bashing and trashing mission runners with even more zeal. Missions need major change to turn mission running into a profession where you need to compete with other players like everything else in EVE. Then we can talk about a river of tears.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:21:00 - [600] Originally by: baltec1 And now CCP have fixed it so that you now pay for your immunity to wardecs. Seems fair to me since all of my stuff can be destroyed by a war dec. You now have a negetive to go along with that positive. Without any of the other benefits. You know, the "positives" that caused you to choose to go into a player corp in the first place? They obviously already outweigh the immunity to wardecs, unless you made a bad choice. Like I said, you're apparently unhappy with your choice, but rather than adjust that you'll choose to penalize others so you can feel more competative. It's not at all the same thing, it's catering to jealousy. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?

baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:32:00 - [601] Edited by: baltec1 on 22/09/2009 15:35:48 Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: baltec1 And now CCP have fixed it so that you now pay for your immunity to wardecs. Seems fair to me since all of my stuff can be destroyed by a war dec. You now have a negetive to go along with that positive. Without any of the other benefits. You know, the "positives" that caused you to choose to go into a player corp in the first place? They obviously already outweigh the immunity to wardecs, unless you made a bad choice. Like I said, you're apparently unhappy with your choice, but rather than adjust that you'll choose to penalize others so you can feel more competative. It's not at all the same thing, it's catering to jealousy. I could demand CCP take away your immunity to wardecs but I dont, I am quite happy for you to only be paying 11% tax on mission isk for your corp while I take more risks and pay more to my corp. However it seems you just dont like the idea of having a small drawback for your immunity in high sec. I hate double standards. Oh and before this goes any further, I have an alt in an NPC corp to avoid war decs that would get in the way of my industrial projects and mission *****ing, and here I am, quite happy to pay this tax for that protection.
Katarina Shadows	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:36:00 - [602] Edited by: Katarina Shadows on 22/09/2009 15:35:54 Julian, Daemonspirit, a very wise man once said: Do not argue with the stupid, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Hythloday	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:40:00 - [603] Edited by: Hythloday on 22/09/2009 15:41:50 Originally by: Daemonspirit #1 - Not everyone likes this change. I think its stupid, silly and will not address the issue the GM posted as the GOAL. #2 - What are the symptoms as you see them? Lets define the problem. completely glossing over the fact that we haven't identified that there is a problem. At least to my satisfaction... I am aware of what the NPC corp experience entails, having experienced it myself. I think it was around 8 months before I finally left my newb corp. It's essentially a single player game, with players doing the same missions, or mining the same belts, enjoying neither activity, only doing it for the pointless acquisition of wealth and skills. We can have this experience in a single player sandbox game, with an IRC client running in the background. The point of an MMO is to have cooperation and competition between players in a persistent environment. Getting people out of newb corps and into player corps should increase cooperation and competition. If you're scared of competition in its purest most explosive form, then thats fine, you shouldn't be expected to go to 0.0 and learn to dodge gatecamps and ninja rat, but we need more cooperation between players and we're not going to get that with people languishing in newb corps. Even WOW has more cooperation among causal players than Eve does, you have to join a raiding guild if you want access to half of the content in the game. Even if you don't particularly want a serious raiding guild, players will still seek out a guild simply out of boredom, or because they want someone to talk to. You don't get dumped into a newb guild where you can settle in and have people to talk to and instruct while you run the same missions over and over again in WoW. All you've got is Barrens chat, and thats super rewarding. So the problem is: 1. People are becoming comfortable with Eve being little more than a single player game and an IRC client. 2. Players who do this are not cooperating or competing with other players enough, which is the whole point of the game being online. 3. WoW is doing something better than Eve. This is unacceptable Solution: Encourage players out of NPC corps and into player corps.

CCP Eris Discordia	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:41:00 - [604] I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer. If you have a corporation where you can meet people, that is immune to war declarations and a tax haven. Why the hell would you leave? Some people do leave these NPC corporations and join corporations owned by players. Hanging out with these players and having the chance to become very meaningful to your corporation is an example of an EVE experience that is harder to get when you stay in NPC corporations. The data we have also suggests that people who join a player corporation are more likely to do a lot of different things in EVE and are more likely to enjoy the things in EVE. In EVE you can be very useful as a new player to some corporations and they will want to involve you in their activities and you have a group of people who would be dedicated to help you..so you can help them in return. With the tax we want to give an incentive to join player corporations who may have a lower tax rate, or a tax rate that will give back to you in a way. If you are dead set to joining a player corporation you can still stay in the NPC corporation. You are not tossed out after a certain time period, nor does 11% tax cripple your income. It might give you something to think about and affect the choice you want to make in game, for me that is a sandbx game..being presented with choices that will mean something. Pink Dread has been hijacked

Sizzle Anburn	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:53:00 - [605] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Stuff Except for one small problem - nobody other than noobs will be paying the 11% NPC corp tax. Established players can easily just create disposable one man player corps to avoid it. Is that what you want your corp tax to do? Cause the creation of thousands of one man disposable player corps? I'd suggest you take that into consideration, and make some sort other changes to prevent the NPC corp dwellers from gaming your change, and avoiding your tax. Otherwise your logical, well intentioned 11% corp tax punishes nobody other than noobs, and people with so much money that they don't care.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:55:00 - [606] Well, I've been properly chastised... I'm going to have to bow out of the conversation then, because I disagree that (while noble in purpose) this change isn't enough of a change to reach the stated goal. Thanks for the clarification! ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Katarina Shadows	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:57:00 - [607] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer. If you have a corporation where you can meet people, that is immune to war declarations and a tax haven. Why the hell would you leave? Some people do leave these NPC corporations and join corporations owned by players. Hanging out with these players and having the chance to become very meaningful to your corporation is an example of an EVE experience that is harder to get when you stay in NPC corporations. The data we have also suggests that people who join a player corporation are more likely to do a lot of different things in EVE and are more likely to enjoy the things in EVE. In EVE you can be very useful as a new player to some corporations and they will want to involve you in their activities and you have a group of people who would be dedicated to help you..so you can help them in return. With the tax we want to give an incentive to join player corporations who may have a lower tax rate, or a tax rate that will give back to you in a way. If you are dead set to joining a player corporation you can still stay in the NPC corporation. You are not tossed out after a certain time period, nor does 11% tax cripple your income. It might give you something to think about and affect the choice you want to make in game, for me that is a sandbx game..being presented with choices that will mean something. Stands on one leg, flapping my arms like wings chanting Gobblegobblegobble... But seriously it isn't difficult to see by the level of resistance to this idea that your worries are largely unfounded. Many of us are already in player corps and choose merely to leave our alts in NPC corps for convenience. If you are dead set on introducing this tax then why not offset this with the sort of benefits we would receive in player corps - Free ship replacement for all losses anyone? (On top of insurance payouts of course.) Judging by the sheer number of "QQ" and "Cry more" style responses in this thread it cannot be difficult for you to see that it is interaction with exactly these kind of players that many of us choose to reject. I have no interest in spending my game time with prepubescent children and adolescents easily young enough to be my offspring. It has been clearly demonstrated how easy it will be to evade this tax by creating one-man corps and thus negating all your best intentions making this a totally pointless change and, as everyone with even the most limited intelligence can comprehend, a pointless change cannot be considered a good change. There are numerous ways in which you could improve this wonderful game of yours but unfortunately this proposal is not one of them. The user interface in this game really feels like it was designed by an amateur and should be vastly improved before you even consider doing anything else. Adding this tax in the hope of making improvement is tantamount to painting the toenails on a gangrenous leg.
Neon Delight	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:58:00 - [608] Originally by: Lindsay Logan 11% taxes to the NPC or 0 - 100% taxes to you and your fellow players? This, in addition to all the awesome features that already exist is not encouragement enough? Sure, thoose who will not care and still be NPC will not care and pay for the 11%, and does that matter? No. They pay 11% for protection basically. 11% is a cheap alternative to Corp tax which in many cases is more than 11%, and can change on a whim. Complete freedom to do what you want, when you want, is also attractive to many players. The content is already awesome, I agree, but it will never be enough to stop folks playing Alts in npc corps because of the simple fact that NPC corps let you "get away from the office" of what can be a very hectic "career" in player corps. Some folks do it just to avoid burnout by hiding and playing their Alt for awhile...so again, 11% tax is not going to hinder many folks whatsoever.
Hythloday	Posted - 2009.09.22 15:58:00 - [609] Originally by: Sizzle Anburn Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Stuff Except for one small problem - nobody other than noobs will be paying the 11% NPC corp tax. Established players can easily just create disposable one man player corps to avoid it. Is that what you want your corp tax to do? Cause the creation of thousands of one man disposable player corps? And after they get bored of having nobody to talk to, they'll join a proper corp. Like players in WoW do.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:01:00 - [610] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Explanation I knew I needed to come back... I would be interested to see the number of players that CCP believes this will be addressed to, i.e. - the number of players in NPC corps that might actually be motivated to move. Again, thanks for the reply, but I must disagree. ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö

Nidhiesk	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:01:00 - [611] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia - As someone mentioned, the tax is more an encouragement and a nudge towards joining a player corporation than a command. You still have the choice to stay in the NPC corporation and in high sec and mine or run missions. how ? player corp usually has 10-12%. same thing. forget it, Im staying in npc ? LOL. wow, if tahts the explanation... it needs rethinking...lots of it. raising tax wont make people go in player corps lol
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:04:00 - [612] Originally by: Nidhiesk Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia - As someone mentioned, the tax is more an encouragement and a nudge towards joining a player corporation than a command. You still have the choice to stay in the NPC corporation and in high sec and mine or run missions. how ? player corp usually has 10-12%. same thing. forget it, Im staying in npc ? LOL. wow, if tahts the explanation... it needs rethinking...lots of it. raising tax wont make people go in player corps lol It has enough people talking about it though. Seriously if this changes nothing then why all the whines
RansomList	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:04:00 - [613] Edited by: RansomList on 22/09/2009 16:05:04 Tears Dont cave in CCP, this will make EVE a better game in the long run. Quote: It has enough people talking about it though. Seriously if this changes nothing then why all the whines Carebears live in a permanent state of terror.
Xandr0ss	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:07:00 - [614] Originally by: baltec1 I could demand CCP take away your immunity to wardecs but I dont, Really, so you think its fine to wardec a corp which will have a lot of new players in it? might as well remove High Sec if you are suggesting this.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:09:00 - [615] Originally by: RansomList Carebears live in a permanent state of terror. I won't say I speak for most carebears, but it's not a state of terror I live in, it's the stupidity, immaturity, and epeen-waving one has to put up with when dealing with PVP.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:11:00 - [616] Originally by: Xandr0ss Originally by: baltec1 I could demand CCP take away your immunity to wardecs but I dont, Really, so you think its fine to wardec a corp which will have a lot of new players in it? might as well remove High Sec if you are suggesting this. My corp gets wardecs and we have new players.
Carcosa Hali Order of Anarchy The Laughing Men	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:11:00 - [617] It's an ISK sink, plain and simple. Creating all the one man alt-corps is an ISK sink. Same difference. Also it occurs to me that with all the veteran players out of noob corps and in their one-man corps, there will be few around to tell the real noobs how they can do that; therefore many will stick around a few months, and be easy prey for the swarms of exploitation corps already trolling the spacelanes. Good change. -------------- Sometimes you lose it all.
Sabriele Amarr Department of Defence Prismatic Refraction	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:12:00 - [618] Originally by: Xandr0ss Really, so you think its fine to wardec a corp which will have a lot of new players in it? might as well remove High Sec if you are suggesting this. What a great idea! edit: spellin HYRDA WILL PROVAIL
Sizzle Anburn	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:14:00 - [619] Originally by: Hythloday Originally by: Sizzle Anburn Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Stuff Except for one small problem - nobody other than noobs will be paying the 11% NPC corp tax. Established players can easily just create disposable one man player corps to avoid it. Is that what you want your corp tax to do? Cause the creation of thousands of one man disposable player corps? And after they get bored of having nobody to talk to, they'll join a proper corp. Like players in WoW do. So the purpose of the design change is indeed to get NPC corp dwellers to create disposable one man corps because then they'll get bored and join player corps. My God, that's brilliant! I bow before your game design uberness sir.
Lagn Gita	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:14:00 - [620] over/under on how many "WTF my corp just blowed up my 4bil isk ship??!!?" threads 2 weeks after this goes live? you know there are already fake corps being setup for this purpose and there are many people dumb enough to fall for it.

Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:14:00 - [621] Originally by: Nidhiesk Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia - As someone mentioned, the tax is more an encouragement and a nudge towards joining a player corporation than a command. You still have the choice to stay in the NPC corporation and in high sec and mine or run missions. how ? player corp usually has 10-12%. same thing. Actually, by the sound of things, player corps usually have <10% tax — that's why the rate of 11% was chosen after all. You're also missing the tiny point that in a PC corp, those taxes aren't lost, but put into a separate fund which can be used for things that will benefit you. So no. They're not the same thing. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:15:00 - [622] My apologies if this has already been asked (i.e. too lazy to go back and read through 20+ pages,) but what percentage of active players are in NPC corps? And is there a graph comparing the number of people in NPC corps versus their total skill points?
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:18:00 - [623] Originally by: Carcosa Hali It's an ISK sink, plain and simple. Creating all the one man alt-corps is an ISK sink. Same difference. Also it occurs to me that with all the veteran players out of noob corps and in their one-man corps, there will be few around to tell the real noobs how they can do that; therefore many will stick around a few months, and be easy prey for the swarms of exploitation corps already trolling the spacelanes. Good change. It¦s meant to "encourage" people to join player corporations. That is the goal of it that Ccp has communicated. No word they planned it as an Isk sink. I might add that since page... I dont know- maybe 3 noone of the People in favour of the change could believably explain that the change would actually do what Ccp sais it would (Make people join Player Corps).
Dred'Pirate Wesley Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:20:00 - [624] Originally by: Hythloday Originally by: Sizzle Anburn Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Stuff Except for one small problem - nobody other than noobs will be paying the 11% NPC corp tax. Established players can easily just create disposable one man player corps to avoid it. Is that what you want your corp tax to do? Cause the creation of thousands of one man disposable player corps? And after they get bored of having nobody to talk to, they'll join a proper corp. Like players in WoW do. There is always eve radio chat or the dozens of other long term chat channels for the solo corp mission runner. YAAAARRRR! Where's Buttercup?!
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:21:00 - [625] Edited by: Daemonspirit on 22/09/2009 16:21:49 Originally by: stoicfaux My apologies if this has already been asked (i.e. too lazy to go back and read through 20+ pages,) but what percentage of active players are in NPC corps? And is there a graph comparing the number of people in NPC corps versus their total skill points? Its been asked, it hasn't been answered! I am almost willing to bet there are more alts in NPC corps than mains (hell, I have four) - and the number of players affected by this enough to actually >join< a corp larger than 1 is not going to be statistically significant. ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:22:00 - [626] As for everyone forming one-man corps, I just can't get excited about being gang-banged while exiting a station after being wardec'ed. It shouldn't be necessary to have a scouting alt just to undock. So I don't see one-man corps as the "workaround" to the 11% NPC tax.
Mikayla Grey Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:25:00 - [627] Originally by: stoicfaux As for everyone forming one-man corps, I just can't get excited about being gang-banged while exiting a station after being wardec'ed. It shouldn't be necessary to have a scouting alt just to undock. So I don't see one-man corps as the "workaround" to the 11% NPC tax. You wont get wardecked in a 1-man corp unless you act like a moron in local.(But maybe thats the problem). Originally by: Lagn Gita over/under on how many "WTF my corp just blowed up my 4bil isk ship??!!?" threads 2 weeks after this goes live? you know there are already fake corps being setup for this purpose and there are many people dumb enough to fall for it. Yes the poor "new players" with 4 bill missionfarmers.
PostWithYourAlt	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:26:00 - [628] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia .. this is not meant as an accusation or something but do you actually read the complete thread or only parts of it ?
Sizzle Anburn	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:27:00 - [629] Originally by: stoicfaux As for everyone forming one-man corps, I just can't get excited about being gang-banged while exiting a station after being wardec'ed. It shouldn't be necessary to have a scouting alt just to undock. So I don't see one-man corps as the "workaround" to the 11% NPC tax. You might want to actually read the thread before you post. You get war dec'd you just drop the corp and form another, or better yet just join one of your other pre-formed ones. You don't even need to delete any of your corps that way. Just leave an alt in it. It's easily gameable. The fact that most of the "yeah, stick it to the NPC bears" aren't capable of figuring out how gameable it is doesn't surprise me in the least.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:32:00 - [630] Originally by: Mikayla Grey Originally by: stoicfaux As for everyone forming one-man corps, I just can't get excited about being gang-banged while exiting a station after being wardec'ed. It shouldn't be necessary to have a scouting alt just to undock. So I don't see one-man corps as the "workaround" to the 11% NPC tax. You wont get wardecked in a 1-man corp unless you act like a moron in local.(But maybe thats the problem). Originally by: Lagn Gita over/under on how many "WTF my corp just blowed up my 4bil isk ship??!!?" threads 2 weeks after this goes live? you know there are already fake corps being setup for this purpose and there are many people dumb enough to fall for it. Yes the poor "new players" with 4 bill missionfarmers. I think some people hide in the NPC corps so they can smack in local with little chance of comeback. It also seems that some people feel this bit of tax should allow them to have the benefits of a player corp without many of the drawbacks, such as being wardeccable. Most people in NPC corps don't really seem to care either way, they're just happy playing the game and if they eventually migrate out to player corps, fine, if not, fair enough. ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!

stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:53:00 - [631] Originally by: Sizzle Anburn You might want to actually read the thread before you post. And CCP might want to actually use a forum software that lets us list the entire thread in one page. That way it's easier to skim and/or search for keywords to find previously answered questions. Clicking through 20+ pages is tedious and archaic. Quote: You get war dec'd you just drop the corp and form another, or better yet just join one of your other pre-formed ones. You don't even need to delete any of your corps that way. Just leave an alt in it. It's easily gameable. The fact that most of the "yeah, stick it to the NPC bears" aren't capable of figuring out how gameable it is doesn't surprise me in the least. Isn't that considered to be an exploit? Or is disbanding and then reforming the same corp to avoid wardecs considered the exploit?
Terri Lam Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:54:00 - [632] Originally by: stoicfaux what percentage of active players are in NPC corps? And is there a graph comparing the number of people in NPC corps versus their total skill points? As someone who has spent over 11 months in an NPC starter corp and enjoyed almost every moment of it I would also be very interested in seeing this kind of data. If CCP has truly been doing research into the NPC vs Player Corp populations it must be on file and not too hard to publish for the public's inspection. On a related note it would be awesome if there were some kind of Pop-up census (instead of those Pop-up ads) at login. Of course saying there are 300,000 paying accounts doesn't mean much when 3 of every 5 are rarely used or are controlled by the same person, it would be nice to have a semi-accurate picture of the population. Along with the " caveman grunt NPC corps bad, Player Corps Gooooood end grunt" I'll point you towards the in-game bio of Darien Elter, which I will quote here for your convenience, please make note of the underlined text. Originally by: Darien Elter [The Center for Advanced Studies NPC starter corporation] is a real corp. So what we don't fly caps or own a POS? We have our own internal groups that go out and do things together like real corps. We bicker and infight like real corps. However, we don't have to pay taxes, don't have to worry about wardecs, and we're free to do whatever we want, when we want. We are Freelancers in the truest sense of the word At present time, I do not wish to join a Player Corp.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:57:00 - [633] Ccp eris Please provide a Statistic conisting of: -Number of Players in Npc Corps -Number of Player in Player Corps (>5members) before and after the change aswell as # of players in the game at the respective timestamps
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:11:00 - [634] Originally by: Ukucia Edited by: Ukucia on 22/09/2009 02:08:24 Originally by: Ms Iustitia may i? i don't know how you peeps think, but i'm a noob with this game, but may i have something to say... 1) you won't be hurting the established alts taxing the noob corp, instead, the new, and i mean really new players will feel the blow... Then let me cover how the taxation system works. There are only 2 things that are taxed: 1 - Bounties on rats, as long as the bounty is over 100k 2 - Mission rewards, as long as the reward is over 30k. (and if I'm mis-remembering the numbers, I'm sure someone will flame me) As such the "really new players" aren't going to be affected by it. They're doing L1 missions, and only 1 or 2 in the entire game have rewards > 100k. And the rats they kill have relatively small bounties. The vets running L4s aren't really going to be affected very much by it. Sure, the rats they kill will definitely have taxes on their bounties, and all of their mission rewards will be taxed. But loot and salvage are worth so much that they won't be feeling much of a pinch. The folks who will get hurt the most by it are the not-quite-brand-new. They're running L2s/L3s, so they're starting to get taxed rewards and taxed bounties. However, the loot and salvage is nowhere near as valuable. Quote: 2) those industrialist alts will only not shoulder the tax by themselves, but pass it along its costumers, now, that would create inflation... Industrialists are not running missions or killing rats, so they will not be taxed. hmmm, so its seems that the way of thinking is that newbies are the one that's doing L1s and low L2s, then after their progression would be hampered somewhat for that very first battle cruiser they so desired to start doing L3s, at this point, while the alts have isk backing from mains, the new players would need to do 11% more missions to get his/her very first battle cruiser.. that means 11% more time, and if the said newbie is not reading guides on missions, most probably he/she'll pop a few cruisers doing missions... alts/experienced players would not have this problem, just the really new players. well, unless the newbie sticks to L1s til he/she gets a battle cruiser. an experienced player on an alt again would not feel the taxation, but a new player trying to sc**** some isks to improve skills and equipment will.. me personally, i don't mind the tax, but i don't see the point in imposing it, in player corps, you get taxed, yes, but i think you get something out of the tax your giving, npc corps, there's already a vast limitation to what a player in it can do...
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:14:00 - [635] Originally by: Mikayla Grey Edited by: Mikayla Grey on 22/09/2009 05:18:58 Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Altie McName Nothing screams lone wolf more than being alone in your single man 0% tax corp. why the hell would someone who considers themselves a "lone wolf" play an MMORPG in the first place? There is no single player game that adequately simulates a real market used by real humans. The folks playing the industrial or trader roles in the game don't have much need of a corp, yet need other humans to create a vibrant market. Why are you crying if you are a trader or industrialist. You wont be affected and can still stay in your bubble. If you'd actually bother reading what I write, you'd learn I'm not crying. It's a bad decision that has negligible effect on me. That doesn't take away the fact that it's a bad decision. Quote: Originally by: Gsptlsnz To balance this, there is one thing that's rookie-friendly in EvE: the Rookie Help channel. CCP should be removing things that make the game unfriendly to Rookies, not adding new ones. I'd say there is nothing worse for a new player than the old players in npc corp chat. Not all NPC corps are the same. Some have very, very good corp chat. Others are absolutely terrible. Letting us switch NPC corps would do more to "create social interaction" than a tax that pushes people towards small/1-man corps.
Gunnanmon Gallente Imperial Syndicate Forces The Laughing Men	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:19:00 - [636] This thread is stagnating, please increase the tax to at least 43%. Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:27:00 - [637] Originally by: Hythloday There will be those who are spurred by this to find good player corps to join. 3-4% is nowhere near enough to spur such change. Try looking at our actual complaints, instead of the ones you make up in your head. Quote: There will be those who go and create their own 1-2 man corps in which to carry on doing what they were doing before the tax. The stated goal of the change is to increase social interaction. When one of the major results of your 'fix' is to remove the only social interaction these people have, it's a bad fix. Quote: You can't say that just because you don't like the change, or just because YOU don't plan to alter your behaviour, that the changes will achieve absolutely nothing. The change isn't aimed at YOU personally. Again, try reading what people are writing. The pro-player-corp crowd is guessing at the reasons people want to stay in NPC corps, instead of actually reading what they say. The reason people stay in NPC corps for a long time is: 1) They're lone wolves, who will never want to be in a player corp. 2) They've been burned too many times looking for a player corp. And the only ones with enough of a public history to be known quantities have very steep requirements (X0M SP, etc) because they can. There's no fix for #1. These players will just keep playing. The only fix for #2 is to make it easier to evaluate a player corp before joining it and staining your employment history forever. What, exactly, do you propose to fix this? How are players supposed to evaluate player corps when every single one sounds nearly identical in the recruitment forum and channel? When the tax rate is set by the whim of the CEO, when "no mandatory ops" suddenly become "you MUST be HERE, NOW."? CCP's blindly addressing a symptom, because apparently they are making the same false assumptions as you are.
Kewso	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:33:00 - [638] Well here comes the age of tons of 1 man corps, when that 1 man corp gets wardec'd they'll drop to the npc corp then create a new corp.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:44:00 - [639] Originally by: RansomList Edited by: RansomList on 22/09/2009 16:05:04 Tears Dont cave in CCP, this will make EVE a better game in the long run. Quote: It has enough people talking about it though. Seriously if this changes nothing then why all the whines Carebears live in a permanent state of terror. If the CCP folks are actually bothering to read this thread, I'd like to point out that most of those supporting this change are juvenile little morons like this one. Should it shock the devs that some of us don't want to spend all our 'social interaction' with these kids?
Domoso	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:49:00 - [640] I don't want a npc corp tax. I want more cow bell!

Junko Togawa Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:51:00 - [641] Originally by: Hamshoe You sir, are the gold standard of navel gazing. /thread
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:57:00 - [642] Originally by: Junko Togawa Originally by: Hamshoe You sir, are the gold standard of navel gazing. /thread And you fail to actually (try to) contribute anything :). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:58:00 - [643] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer. Why isn't that the player's choice to make?
Ashina Sito Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.22 17:59:00 - [644] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer. A player corp has nothing to offer me... I am not a sheep. I do not need others to help me succeed. I can survive on my own. I can achieve goals without having corp mates as a crutch. Player Corporations are for the weak, the puny, the insignificant who are unwilling or incapable of doing anything without the rest of the herd around them. Joining a corporation is an admission of incompetence and failure... At least the way I see it.
Junko Togawa Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:01:00 - [645] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs And you fail to actually (try to) contribute anything :). NO U!
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:10:00 - [646] Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: RansomList Edited by: RansomList on 22/09/2009 16:05:04 Tears Dont cave in CCP, this will make EVE a better game in the long run. Quote: It has enough people talking about it though. Seriously if this changes nothing then why all the whines Carebears live in a permanent state of terror. If the CCP folks are actually bothering to read this thread, I'd like to point out that most of those supporting this change are juvenile little morons like this one. Should it shock the devs that some of us don't want to spend all our 'social interaction' with these kids? Well, when your spending about 13 bucks a month on a multiplayer game, yes.
Hythloday	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:13:00 - [647] Edited by: Hythloday on 22/09/2009 18:13:48 Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: Hythloday There will be those who are spurred by this to find good player corps to join. 3-4% is nowhere near enough to spur such change. Try looking at our actual complaints, instead of the ones you make up in your head. Quote: There will be those who go and create their own 1-2 man corps in which to carry on doing what they were doing before the tax. The stated goal of the change is to increase social interaction. When one of the major results of your 'fix' is to remove the only social interaction these people have, it's a bad fix. So let me get this straight. 3-4% is not enough to spur such a change in the direction we want... but at the same time it is enough to spur people into creating their own one man corps? Enjoy your cognitive dissonance. And as I said before. Those who choose to start 1 man corps are welcome to do so. But I think that without the IRC channel of NPC corp chat to lurk in, they'll be spurred to join larger and more active corps when they've grown tired of their solitude. So we arrive at the desired outcome in a more roundabout way. If you truly are a lone wolf, then you shouldn't have a problem being on your own in your own little corp. Removing the 'social interaction' of a 'lone wolf' is kind of a contradiction in terms. Quote: What, exactly, do you propose to fix this? How are players supposed to evaluate player corps when every single one sounds nearly identical in the recruitment forum and channel? When the tax rate is set by the whim of the CEO, when "no mandatory ops" suddenly become "you MUST be HERE, NOW."? I dunno, have an interview with a director, lurk on their public channel and ventrilo. Or just join and quit, and keep trying different corps until you find one that you do like. That or just stay in an NPC corp and accept the tax.
Splinter McIron	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:21:00 - [648] Terrible terrible terrible. That's all I can think of to describe this idea. Don't do it CCP. You are going after the wrong people, and you aren't even telling the truth as to why you are doing it. At least have the balls to stand and say "Hey, we think mission runners make too much money, so here's a sink to that." Really, don't mess with them. I do not support this.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:28:00 - [649] Originally by: Uronksur Suth Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: RansomList Edited by: RansomList on 22/09/2009 16:05:04 Tears Dont cave in CCP, this will make EVE a better game in the long run. Quote: It has enough people talking about it though. Seriously if this changes nothing then why all the whines Carebears live in a permanent state of terror. If the CCP folks are actually bothering to read this thread, I'd like to point out that most of those supporting this change are juvenile little morons like this one. Should it shock the devs that some of us don't want to spend all our 'social interaction' with these kids? Well, when your spending about 13 bucks a month on a multiplayer game, yes. Sorry, should've chosen one of your posts for the juvenile moron example. Since I've already explicitly answered your question. (And when the idiots like you show up in NPC corp chat, I just block them. They happen to be rare in Scope.)
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:28:00 - [650] Originally by: Hythloday So let me get this straight. 3-4% is not enough to spur such a change in the direction we want... but at the same time it is enough to spur people into creating their own one man corps? Enjoy your cognitive dissonance. There's noting dissonant about that at all. If the players motivation is not to be involved with a player corp (for whatever reason), they'll most likely pursue that end until they they reach the point of CBA, and then they'll quit. If a player's motivation is to make isk, they'll pursue that goal until they reach CBA, and then they'll quit. There are other games out there None like EVE, but not everybody likes EVE. Your line of reasoning just brings that point closer to more of the player base. The only thing that will motivate people to join a player corp, is the desire to join a player corp. And this change doesn't address that at all. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?

DrefsabZN Caldari Butterfly Effect Corp.	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:35:00 - [651] I'm strongly in favour of this, best idea I've heard for a while and if anything 11% is a little low (i'd support variable tax rate that increased the longer you have been playing capping out at 90% to stop older players just taking the mick). A lot of people sit in NPC corps and enjoy the benefit of being immune to War Dec's, this is something I see as the big issue.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:38:00 - [652] Edited by: Hamshoe on 22/09/2009 18:38:56 Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia If you have a corporation where you can meet people, that is immune to war declarations and a tax haven. Why the hell would you leave? That's the inverse of the question that should have been answered first. I'll accept that CCP only wants me to have the best game experience possible, and that y'all may actually know better than me what that is in the end. But ask around: Given the happy shiny rainbow world of EVE-y goodness that is life in a player corp, why does anybody not join one? That's where you'll find your motivators. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:39:00 - [653] Originally by: Domoso I don't want a npc corp tax. I want more cow bell! I want corp tax and more cowbell. I want it all.
Quinn Foute	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:39:00 - [654] Originally by: DrefsabZN I'm strongly in favour of this, best idea I've heard for a while and if anything 11% is a little low (i'd support variable tax rate that increased the longer you have been playing capping out at 90% to stop older players just taking the mick). A lot of people sit in NPC corps and enjoy the benefit of being immune to War Dec's, this is something I see as the big issue. Originally by: Quinn Foute This Thread tl-dr After naptraining every1 in their own territory and building big stagnating powerblocks PvPers now need to seek their targets in empire NPCCorps
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:40:00 - [655] Edited by: Ukucia on 22/09/2009 18:42:01 Originally by: Hythloday Edited by: Hythloday on 22/09/2009 18:13:48 Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: Hythloday There will be those who are spurred by this to find good player corps to join. 3-4% is nowhere near enough to spur such change. Try looking at our actual complaints, instead of the ones you make up in your head. Quote: There will be those who go and create their own 1-2 man corps in which to carry on doing what they were doing before the tax. The stated goal of the change is to increase social interaction. When one of the major results of your 'fix' is to remove the only social interaction these people have, it's a bad fix. So let me get this straight. 3-4% is not enough to spur such a change in the direction we want... but at the same time it is enough to spur people into creating their own one man corps? People are not clones. They will do different things based on the same stimulus. Some people will do nothing, because 3-4% isn't worth changing. Some will object to the taxes and form their own corps. That's the whole point of sandbox games, and one you seem completely oblivious to: People want different stuff from their games. What you think is "good", I may not enjoy. The stuff I enjoy, you may find mind-numbingly dull. Quote: And as I said before. Those who choose to start 1 man corps are welcome to do so. But I think that without the IRC channel of NPC corp chat to lurk in, they'll be spurred to join larger and more active corps when they've grown tired of their solitude. So we arrive at the desired outcome in a more roundabout way. That's because you're only thinking like you. Not everyone does. Quote: If you truly are a lone wolf, then you shouldn't have a problem being on your own in your own little corp. Removing the 'social interaction' of a 'lone wolf' is kind of a contradiction in terms. If the goal of a change is to increase social interaction, then the results that do the opposite are bad. If CCP really wants to encourage more people to join player corps, they're going to have to actually change the source code instead of stuffing a number in place with minimal thought. Quote: Quote: What, exactly, do you propose to fix this? How are players supposed to evaluate player corps when every single one sounds nearly identical in the recruitment forum and channel? When the tax rate is set by the whim of the CEO, when "no mandatory ops" suddenly become "you MUST be HERE, NOW."? I dunno, have an interview with a director, lurk on their public channel and ventrilo. Or just join and quit, and keep trying different corps until you find one that you do like. Interviews don't work. The recruiter/director/CEO/whomever is "on their best behavior". When you get into corp chat, you often find they're completely different, or the people they've decided to corp with aren't what was portrayed in the interview. However, that kind of thing is the smaller of the two issues, since you can figure out you don't fit in by only wasting about a week. The larger problem is CEOs of unestablished corps don't really know what they're doing, and so they can decide that the corp needs to suddenly change direction and anyone who disagrees is a traitor. This happens a lot. And when you've been busting your ass for them for months, it is very unpleasant. (And I've run guilds on other games. I know what I'd have to do to run my own corp, and I just don't want to do that much work in my leisure time) Established corps with competent CEOs can have high entry requirements, and thus do so. Again, the objection to this change is not the actual tax, nor the tax rate. The objection to the change is they're putting a one-size-fits-all band-aid on a symptom without making even the slightest effort to find the root cause (based on the dev blog)
Hythloday	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:42:00 - [656] Originally by: Hamshoe The only thing that will motivate people to join a player corp, is the desire to join a player corp. And this change doesn't address that at all. I'd be interested to hear how you've arrived at your conclusions about player motivations for joining player corps, seeing as how you've been in SAK for 3 and a half years. The thing that motivated me to join a player corp, and subsequently join alliances, was the pursuit of fun. Fun and satisfaction being the primary reasons for playing games. The thing that kept me in an NPC corp for ~8 months before taking that step were that I had grown comfortable in the newb corp, and I knew that I wouldn't be able to return after joining a corp. Fear of the unknown also. This change obviously does make it a bit less comfortable to sit in NPC corps. If it didn't then I don't think we'd have so many complaints from career NPC corpies
Coch Draig Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:43:00 - [657] Oh look, another NPC tax thread. Originally by: Zymurgist Locked. Petitions are the only way to deal with this issue there is nothing the forums can help you with. Please stop opening multiple threads. Zymurgist
Hythloday	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:50:00 - [658] Originally by: Ukucia People are not clones. They will do different things based on the same stimulus. Some people will do nothing, because 3-4% isn't worth changing. Some will object to the taxes and form their own corps. That's the whole point of sandbox games, and one you seem completely oblivious to: People want different stuff from their games. What you think is "good", I may not enjoy. The stuff I enjoy, you may find mind-numbingly dull. Yes, people will do different things. I said this before that these changes weren't aimed at 'you' the reader of this post, they're aimed at encouraging a statistical change in behavior in the wider player base. Originally by: Ukucia If the goal of a change is to increase social interaction, then the results that do the opposite are bad. If CCP really wants to encourage more people to join player corps, they're going to have to actually change the source code instead of stuffing a number in place with minimal thought. How can you decrease the social interaction of a 'lone wolf' who, by definition, doesn't socially interact?
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:52:00 - [659] Originally by: Hythloday Originally by: Hamshoe The only thing that will motivate people to join a player corp, is the desire to join a player corp. And this change doesn't address that at all. I'd be interested to hear how you've arrived at your conclusions about player motivations for joining player corps, seeing as how you've been in SAK for 3 and a half years. Familiar with alts? Multiple accounts? I've been in other corps for a little over 5 years. Never the less, I think you'd agree I might have some expertize in what keeps people out of player corps. I think we all pursue fun as you did. Your mistake is thinking that your brand is somehow worthy of imposition on folks looking for something else. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Naradius DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.22 18:56:00 - [660] This should have been done ages ago... You want a reason - well, I will give you a couple or three. From an RP standpoint, I can see the relevance. As has already been mentioned, Concord needs paying. There is also a Fractional War going on at the moment, and all those Militia pilots (via LP's) and Navy need paying...usually the public pay for their military force through...wait for it!...TAXES!!! Oh, I can hear the grumbles and whines now: "...but I have no interest in FW!!". Well, there are many people who aren't interested in the wars of Iraq and Afghanistan, but they still have to pay taxes. Taxes are never popular, so I say CCP's proposal has had the correct and desired effect

RansomList	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:05:00 - [661] If only Xorp tax was increased to say... 24% I'm sure CCP's stated aims would be met Cry more about it why don't you
Lurana Lay Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:16:00 - [662] It's a stupid idea that won't change anything other than needlessly annoying people. shrugs
Brainless Bimbo Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:22:00 - [663] This tax is no big deal in any respect really is it... an addition of a more realistic role play as some have pointed out..... remember, there is no such thing as a free lunch in eve, everything has a price. Its also a gentle progressive change as well, if you have to pay taxes to a NPC entity it normalises paying corp tax and makes joining a player corp more attractive as they give you greater returns for that tax, like more fun and less limits on game play. Now when will they look at insurance........... ...... continues overleaf.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:23:00 - [664] To the forum Administration, Now after the devblog was released please do not close this topic pointing towards the Information Center board or If you do that- do it so that the 22 pages of this topic get automaticly appended to the thread over there. Would be a hassle having to rewrite 22 pages of argumentation.
Junko Togawa Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:25:00 - [665] Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Now when will they look at insurance........... Ooh, insurance whine, do want to has wif some cheez!
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:29:00 - [666] Originally by: Brainless Bimbo if you have to pay taxes to a NPC entity it normalises paying corp tax and makes joining a player corp more attractive as they give you greater returns for that tax, ... ... or less. Or more hassle. They're also significantly more likely to be scammers or insist that you work with brain donors rather than just blocking them. There is a great potential upside, but the risk is not insignificant. And people aren't the rational calculators old school econ makes them out to be. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Chip Flux Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:29:00 - [667] Why dont we call it a donation? we could call it insurance against being locked out of station. Or how about extortion money to be paid to the Jove? Or we could talk about it as if it was not in a story. It is a fine The hate in this place for fellow players is grotesque. But no surprise of course. These people are my motivation Three years ago I decided that I was going to show these people what a sane person can do. I want to make them look like what they are. Dont drive me out CCP
Asuri Kinnes Caldari Adhocracy Incorporated	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:39:00 - [668] Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 22/09/2009 19:44:51 Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 22/09/2009 19:42:11 Originally by: Hythloday So let me get this straight. 3-4% is not enough to spur such a change in the direction we want... but at the same time it is enough to spur people into creating their own one man corps? Enjoy your cognitive dissonance. One man corp = immune to war-dec, because no-one is going to wardec 1500 one-man corps... One man corp = Lvl 4 missionrunning income not subject to tax - tens of millions a day of mission running for the 1.6 million cost of a throw-away corp? oh yeah. One man corp @ the cost of whatever communities HAVE been created within these chat channels? = less social interaction! (which, bye the way, exists whether or not you think its worthwhile...) Some people do enjoy the aspects of the game reachable from the NPC corps. Doesn't matter if >you< think they might enjoy something even more - >you< aren't them... Cognitive dissonance my a$$! Originally by: Hythloday This change obviously does make it a bit less comfortable to sit in NPC corps. If it didn't then I don't think we'd have so many complaints from career NPC corpies I'm not an NPC corpie... I just think its poorly thought out, and address a >symptom< rather than a cause. Hell - turn it around. Corps & Alliances haven't done a good enough job recruiting, have they...? Honor is that which you do when no one else is looking.
Chip Flux Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:46:00 - [669] no pos, is the least of it. Do you understand how we have no right to help a fellow corp member, have little choice but to watch as they are blown up? Of course we cannot be wardecced, we are not a threat, we dont have nor can we take, territory
Ace2001 Caldari Steele-Moose Astrodynamics Research	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:54:00 - [670] I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, and if it has, I'm sorry. I'm also sure this idea will get me flamed, but: What if you allow the person to choose if they want to be taxed? (And thus, have the choice of being protected by Concord or not.) If you don't want to pay your taxes, fine. But don't expect all the support and help that the other tax payers will recieve!

Yelu Olympias	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:58:00 - [671] Edited by: Yelu Olympias on 22/09/2009 19:58:38 If the Gallente give 11% then us Caldari's should give 15%. Also we should get healthcare.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.22 20:17:00 - [672] Originally by: Ashina Sito Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer. A player corp has nothing to offer me... I am not a sheep. I do not need others to help me succeed. I can survive on my own. I can achieve goals without having corp mates as a crutch. Player Corporations are for the weak, the puny, the insignificant who are unwilling or incapable of doing anything without the rest of the herd around them. Joining a corporation is an admission of incompetence and failure... At least the way I see it. I hope such a spectacularly blinkered view is not shared by many in this game. I sense some bitterness in this response, we can only speculate can't we ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Hythloday	Posted - 2009.09.22 20:26:00 - [673] Originally by: Julian Lynq Would be a hassle having to rewrite 22 pages of argumentation.
Stone Breaker	Posted - 2009.09.22 20:51:00 - [674] If I could spend 1.6m and only have to train a rank 1 skill to level 1 to earn 11% more from bounty and rewards while mish running who wouldn't? I look forward to the QQ from all the empire based pvp pansies crying over the mission runners avoiding their war decs.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 20:55:00 - [675] Originally by: Hythloday Yes, people will do different things. I said this before that these changes weren't aimed at 'you' the reader of this post, they're aimed at encouraging a statistical change in behavior in the wider player base. So what's your point then? Originally by: Ukucia If the goal of a change is to increase social interaction, then the results that do the opposite are bad. If CCP really wants to encourage more people to join player corps, they're going to have to actually change the source code instead of stuffing a number in place with minimal thought. How can you decrease the social interaction of a 'lone wolf' who, by definition, doesn't socially interact? They currently interact with others via the NPC corp channel. They just don't want others telling them what to do (be in a player corp) or have to tell others what to do (create their own corp). But they'll still chat.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.22 21:00:00 - [676] Originally by: Naradius From an RP standpoint, I can see the relevance. As has already been mentioned, Concord needs paying. There is also a Factional War going on at the moment, and all those Militia pilots (via LP's) and Navy need paying...usually the public pay for their military force through...wait for it!...TAXES!!! You really don't want to go at this from an RP perspective. Because the realistic RP situation would be no wardecs, and life sentences in prison if you shoot anyone in highsec. Governments don't want wars to take place within their borders. They blow up stuff that has to be rebuilt by the government, and the local peasantry is greatly inconvenienced. So it makes no sense that you _can_ wardec another corp. So, let's not go into the 'realistic from an RP standpoint' concept, 'cause you really wouldn't like it if we made decisions that way.
Ebon Prophecy Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.22 21:15:00 - [677] I'm starting to think this has more to do with CCP reducing macro/botting isk farmers income, then nudging players out of NPC corps.... Most of the people I know in NPC corps(my self included), this is a non-issue, and could care less about the tax... What's your real agenda, CCP?
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.22 21:47:00 - [678] Originally by: Tippia Their competition isn't each other ù it's you, the mission runner, who do a spot of salvaging on the side. Also, if you want to talk about risk:reward, think of it like this: the risk in running missions under the aegis of NPC corp protection is nil. Thus the rewards are being reduced to match. Then you contradict yourself when you say that. first you say mission running isn't competitive and pvp then you say that salvaging missions is and the salvagers are competing with the mission runner, bringing missions into the PVP competition sphere. Saying there is NONE and then saying there is SOME. which is it Tippia? I do agree that running the mission ITSELF by itself isn't really competitive, but the after effects can be (salvaging, looting). Not as often no but there is 'some' competition inherent within the entirety of mission running. Like I said I have no issues with this tax. I always wondered why npc corps didn't have a tax like regular corps. I just think CCP is fullchit when they say that it's to nudge players into player corps. It's more likely they got tired of all the whines on these threads about players in NPC corps supposedly having an unfair advantage (and then those same people screaming that player corps give so much more advantage than an NPC corp - see the stupidity here?). So they added a 'slightly' above average tax. Which makes one wonder why they chose to go above the average rather than stick to the average but that is another question for later. All this tax is, is a Tax on Mission Runners, not on anyone else in npc corps. So it is NOT for why they stated 'to nudge players to player corps' It is to nerf mission runner income slightly to put a salve on all the whiners screaming about mission runners making so much more isk. Name the tax for what it is REALLY for. Don't try to smoke and mirrors bull** us by saying it's to encourage NPC corp players to join player corps when you (ccp) knows damn well that the tax only hits mission runners and not manufacturing alts, hauler alts, logistics players etc. that are still in NPC corps. Thats more why I am y. The smoke and mirrors bull CCP tries to pull by saying it's one thing when it isn't at all. Just tell the ing truth for once you ing **ers. You don't have to lie to your playerbase. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.22 21:53:00 - [679] Being annoyed over the way CCP are trying to pitch this is at least honest, and I think that's what has caused this furore in the first place, not the fact that they are going to put the tax on NPC corps, it's about feeling that CCP are making a compromise to appease those who feel NPC corps are getting it easy. Chances are if CCP had just called it as it seems to be, most people wouldn't be screaming about it. ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.22 22:01:00 - [680] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 22/09/2009 22:03:08 TINFOIL!!! GETCHER TINFOIL HATS RIGHT HERE!!! ON-LY $6.50 PER HAT!!! STEP RIGHT UP!!! TINFOIL!!! GETCHER..... Really people, you certainly are reading a whole lot into this now. Its a small incentive, nothing more. It subtly promotes joining player corps... which (according to CCP) is rather one of the main thrusts of the game... and frankly I could care less what contrived reasons you have for staying in one. You now have one less. The only people really irritated by this change are players that have their mission running alts nestled safely and profitably in an NPC corp. The new players could care less as they fully intend to explore the rest of what the game has to offer eventually anyway. Who is trying to deceive whom here, eh? ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.

Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.22 22:04:00 - [681] You don¦t get it. We are all RMT traders. CCP PrismX found that out.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.22 22:08:00 - [682] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 22/09/2009 22:08:53 Originally by: Serge Bastana Being annoyed over the way CCP are trying to pitch this is at least honest, and I think that's what has caused this furore in the first place, not the fact that they are going to put the tax on NPC corps, it's about feeling that CCP are making a compromise to appease those who feel NPC corps are getting it easy. Chances are if CCP had just called it as it seems to be, most people wouldn't be screaming about it. I wouldn't be. I was pretty vocal when they tried to spin Ghost Training* as a bug that became a feature that became a bug, and I kept saying it was not ever for why they tried to claim it, but was for money, and then Hilmar himself finally admitted that the truth was, it was about money. Which had they said that in the first place, would have been acceptable to the vast majority of the player base (btw I never used ghost training). My issue is that CCP seems to think that lieing to their userbase is acceptable behavior. They have done it over and over again, been called on it over and over again, and STILL think it's ok. I ask you this CCP, when is it going to be enough mud on your face before you wake up and realize you don't need to lie to the people that pay your salaries (yes, WE pay your salaries. YOU work for US, It doesn't matter what name is on the pay stub, all that cash comes from US so YOU are OUR employees and don't you forget it.!)? Just tell the truth, don't sugar coat it or spin it. We are all for the most parts adults here and can understand things quite well. We are also all reasonable (for the most part) people. *for those of you who don't know. Ghost training was a FEATURE CCP advertised as a Unique part of their game, where even if your account wasn't active, you could set a long skill before it became inactive and it would continue training until it was finished, or you resubbed and changed it. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Billius Zabub	Posted - 2009.09.22 22:24:00 - [683] I am a target of this change. I've played EVE on and off for a few years (mostly off, ~2 months/year). I've never joined a player corp. Recently (since starting up again this year), I've learned that I'm a carebear. I mostly run missions in high-sec. My first reaction to this was that old familiar annoyed feeling (the reason I tend to only play EVE for a couple months a year). I thought about quitting again. I know it's childish. But, I've put a lot of effort into building up my mission running abilities and anything that impinges on my efforts sucks (my carebear mentality, I know). My second reaction was to buy the skill book for corporation management and train it to level 1. One-man Corp! I thought of that on my own before reading all the posts here about it. Reading the posts here, I had to go look up what "wardeccing" is. (me=noob) But, I'm starting to calm down now. If CCP wants to nudge me into a corp, maybe I'll try it. I'm not totally against the idea. It's just not that appealing to me. I'm not a big fan of chat windows. Also, I suspect that I wont be that appealing to corps. I don't have a ton of time to play EVE in real life. Even mission running is a strain because it can take 3 hours to complete some of the longer missions. And, yeah, I can see now that the 11% is really more like 3-4% off the total income, so I could just stay with my NPC corp too. Or, do the one-man corp thing. shrug But, I'll try to make an effort to find a player corp that works for me. Most of what has motivated me to stay with EVE a little longer this year is that I'm trying to check out more aspects of the game. Last weekend I used a jump clone and went through a wormhole. That was exciting... though, ultimately kind of boring on the other side, then my probing skills seemed to fail me. Plus, I'm realizing I just need to skill up exploration skills. I also tried Ninja Looting, which was a lot harder and prone to issues than I thought. Blah, blah blah... tl;dr, I know. Anyway, I figured I'd post my reaction to this.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.22 22:31:00 - [684] Originally by: Ranger 1 The only people really irritated by this change are players that have their mission running alts nestled safely and profitably in an NPC corp. The new players could care less as they fully intend to explore the rest of what the game has to offer eventually anyway. Who is trying to deceive whom here, eh? Let's see: 3 main characters, all in player corps, inventing, building and running missions; 4 active alts, 2 are in player corps, 2 are datafarming alts in NPC corps (and they don't run taxable missions) Ans still I feel irritated by the way this change was implemented and by the reasons given. It is that simply the stated goal will not reached with the method used. At most 1-2% of the NPC corps mission runners will move in players corps with more than 1 human player in them. At the same time the Devs have showed a marked prejudice against people in NPC corps. And Prism X words have remarked it. Not a good move for CCP. If the true reason was to reduce isk inflow reducing missions bounties or/and rewards would have been a better solution. People would have grumbled the same but at least they would have accepted it as something affecting all people. done this way it simply show that CCP feel that NPC corp members are second class citizens.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.22 22:35:00 - [685] Originally by: Ranger 1 Really people, you certainly are reading a whole lot into this now. Its a small incentive, nothing more. It subtly promotes joining player corps... How? 15 minutes on one skill and I still don't have to take the hassats seriously. It's a pointless PITA. On the other hand, it quite obviously panders to complaints about "risk free isk" coming from those who feel thay can't compete. This does nothing to improve the player corp experience, it merely makes it seem slightly less onerous. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
SomebodyKickedMyDog	Posted - 2009.09.22 22:55:00 - [686] Edited by: SomebodyKickedMyDog on 22/09/2009 22:57:39 Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer. If you have a corporation where you can meet people, that is immune to war declarations and a tax haven. Why the hell would you leave? I'm glad you took the time to respond; I've been wondering why, exactly, ccp wants to nudge people towards player run corps. You note that you can meet people in NPCs corp, suggesting that they're just as social, if not more so, than player run corps. I would agree that some (not all) NPC corps are more social than many player run corps. Given this, it's hard to understand the reasoning for wanting to nudge people to corporations that are less social. My two main chars are currently in player corps; but when I was in an NPC corp, I liked that I always met new people, rather than seeing the same old 6-10 players everyday. Next you point out that NPC corps are immune to war decs. True enough. But if players don't want to pvp, why try to push them in that direction? As others have pointed out, many corps disband for the very reason that they get wardecced. In fact, it seems that quite a few pirate corporations wardec other corps for the very purpose of trying to close them down. Personally, I actually wish more people would pvp, as that's my main activity and I always want more people to fight. I'm not sure this is the way to do it, though. Making pvp more attractive/less prohibitive (however that would be accomplished) seems to be a more sensible solution. Finally, you explain that NPC corps are 'tax havens.' This ignores the fact that player corps often have ship replacement programs, provide free mods to players, give the opportunity to plow through missions with a fleet, thus making isk faster, and so on. In other words, I wouldn't say that NPC corps have an isk advantage in this area. I would agree that people may be missing out on what player corps can offer. But I don't think that this is the best move in trying to increase player corp numbers. Just my 2isk.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.09.22 22:57:00 - [687] Originally by: Serge Bastana Being annoyed over the way CCP are trying to pitch this is at least honest, and I think that's what has caused this furore in the first place, not the fact that they are going to put the tax on NPC corps, it's about feeling that CCP are making a compromise to appease those who feel NPC corps are getting it easy. Oooooh, conspiracy theory. So if the botters/farmers move to one-map corps they can be tracked/audited more easily? I probably shouldn't use high-bit ascii and random strings of numbers for my corp name then. Or maybe the NPC corp tax is to help ensure that PLEX is a better deal than buying from the isk-resellers? And you had better setup your one-man corps now before CCP raises the incorporation fee (the more small corps you join in a certain time period, the more each one costs,) limits the # of times you can disband/form/join a corp by account, etc.. Maybe CCP wants the botters/farmers to join one-map corps in order to allow the player base to self-police botting/farming?
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.22 23:12:00 - [688] Originally by: DrefsabZN I'm strongly in favour of this, best idea I've heard for a while and if anything 11% is a little low (i'd support variable tax rate that increased the longer you have been playing capping out at 90% to stop older players just taking the mick). A lot of people sit in NPC corps and enjoy the benefit of being immune to War Dec's, this is something I see as the big issue. NOT all of the EVE Community are War Freaks, some are here to enjoy ourselves, and yes, i hide under the NPC corps immunity for wardec's coz fun to me is running missions, not to constantly check local for adversaries and such.
Tax This	Posted - 2009.09.23 00:16:00 - [689] 10 mins training on a brand new alt creating disposable 1-2 man corp and once again risk/tax free mission running! GG CCP!
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2009.09.23 00:21:00 - [690] Originally by: stoicfaux Oooooh, conspiracy theory. So if the botters/farmers move to one-map corps they can be tracked/audited more easily? I probably shouldn't use high-bit ascii and random strings of numbers for my corp name then. Or maybe the NPC corp tax is to help ensure that PLEX is a better deal than buying from the isk-resellers? I would like to see the code for "stupid name finder" function myself. Would be something. On a more serious note ... People that have friends in a game, tend to play the game longer, take that for what you will given CCP's stated reasons. The business justification is clear. If the tax thing is a good way or not to promote those friendships is open to this debate. The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)

Lanais Suleia	Posted - 2009.09.23 00:30:00 - [691] Originally by: Tax This 10 mins training on a brand new alt creating disposable 1-2 man corp and once again risk/tax free mission running! GG CCP! They're not after you. Once you're in a player corp, you can be wardec'ed. That's all they want. I presume some optimist at CCP thinks that this will lead to player macro-hunters being able to do something about ISK farmers, but in reality it'll only lead to professional combat corps wardec'ing defenceless highsec corps formed by people to avoid the tax and griefing them into the ground.
Tax This	Posted - 2009.09.23 00:45:00 - [692] Well the flaw is that one can easily avoid the war dec. The result will however be an anti-social trend toward single/two man mission running corps.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.23 02:24:00 - [693] Originally by: Tax This Well the flaw is that one can easily avoid the war dec. The result will however be an anti-social trend toward single/two man mission running corps. Which will in turn make all the gank bears that have whined and screamed for ages on the forums about this, whine and scream even more because their OWN actions got them what they wanted, but sadly for them, like all species that are eventually driven to extinction due to an inability to be able to adapt to a changing environment, they didn't think past their desire for an easy gank, to how insanely easy it will be to avoid being ganked. Not that they are REAL PvPers. High sec griefers are more care-bear than the care-bears they scream and whine about. They want fat EASY targets to post on their e-peen wagging kill boards, but don't realize all those mission runner ship and industrial ship kills really don't show anything but how utterly pathetic they are as PVPers. Put most of them up against someone that knows how to fight, and they will be on a REAL killboard. As a kill. They will of course attempt to deny it. But they are care bears as well. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.23 05:37:00 - [694] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 23/09/2009 05:40:06 I am sure there will be plenty of people who cheerfully shoot themselves in the foot and form one man corps, I doubt they stay in them long. In doing so they give up any camaraderie they may have had with their friends in the NPC corp and give up their protection from war decs (yes, if you are in the habit of mouthing off in local you can and will end up getting war decced... and corp jumping to avoid war decs can get you banned), all for a few % more isk. Pretty foolish any way you look at it. Having an alt in an NPC corp doing level 4's is by far the most lucrative and safest niche in the game, I don't think anyone in this thread can seriously attempt to deny that. This blunts that edge slightly for the old timers and provides incentive to experience the game more fully to the new. You can complain all you like, you can evade it and do yourself more harm than good, but the fact remains that it is a good call by the developers and does no harm to anyone in the process. At worse it levels certain playing fields a bit. So suck it up people, your game just got a tiny bit more challenging. You'll survive. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.09.23 05:44:00 - [695] A point was made previously about the NPC tax being an "ISK sink" to reduce inflation. This is an important point. The spawn farming of ships and asteroids - unlimited resources - is an ISK pump making money out of thin air. To what effect? When the US adopted central banking that printed money, which in 1971 eventually left the gold standard (the Bretton Woods deal), the US dollar is now worth only 4 cents of what it was in 1900. As for CCP trying to get people into player corps as a means of increasing interaction, I think this is not an effective idea. People will pay the tax and still avoid the politics. How do I know this? Look at all the taxes people pay in real life just to avoid the politics of our own corrupt "representatives". Ever try to get taxes reduced? You will spend countless hours and your own money to get one petition ignored after another, one candidate you support smeared and ignored over and over, and dues to groups in this endeavor paid, whose main accomplishment will be eat-meet-retreat for decades while you still continue to get robbed year after year. So this will change nothing. See how little changes in the real world? Ya think the fake world matters that much? Doubt it. If you want to get interaction, corporations should have the ability to run their own LP systems and their own stores, and allow non-members to run missions for them - even to get them to kill other corp members as if in a mission. "Lone wolves" should be able to choose to run missions for player corps and gain standings with them. Of course the risk of having bad standing or being a war target with a corp that war decs a corp you have high standings with should not be excluded. But you see the "risk and reward" thing in effect here? Simply making a tax does not include reward. Corporations might get a few members who would otherwise not have joined (and they will not last long having not had the motivation to be in a PC corp in the first place). This will not make a difference. The tools need to be expanded. This "carrot and stick" thing is failing because they don't coordinate well. Sometimes you get carrot, sometimes you get the stick. And at times it seems like the carrot gets shoved up your butt or you can beat someone else with the stick. All it does is make people log in to check their skills and set the que while rethinking their subscriptions and hoping for a better day. Let corporations have their own missions for mining, exploring, and kills (even members of other corps). Let them have their own LP stores and LP point systems. Fix the bounty system please. Let those who take advantage of what a corp has to offer, without forcing them to actually join it, also deal with the consequences. If you have high standings with one corp, you have low standings with a corp that it's at war with. If you are on a mission for a corp, you are a war target for a corp it's at war with, if at war. And it they really want to kill the "ISK farming thing", then make it a security status/criminal flagging matter to send ISK to known criminals and terrorists. People are boasting that it's such a "real world thing" to be taxed. Fine then. Send some money to Al Queda and see what happens to you. You want to boast e-peen about "consequences" then don't be a hypocrite. This increases interaction, but without the politics. Risk and reward. Even in the real world, people avoid the politics even while the politicians are robbing them. They can make the NPC corp tax a PROGRESSIVE tax, not a flat tax, and it won't change a thing, because such progressive taxes have not mattered one bit in the real world. 10 percent of the US population pays over 50 percent of all collected income taxes while most of the tax payers don't pay any taxes because they earn so little. Do those top wage earners care? No they just roll past the non-payers at the bus stop while driving their luxury cars and still think it's a fair trade.
Tax This	Posted - 2009.09.23 06:08:00 - [696] You war dec a corp not an individual. The individual is free to join or leave a corp when ever they want. I fail to see how CCP plans to ban people for 'corp jumping'. War dec's are not a licence to grief an individual player in empire.
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.23 06:56:00 - [697] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 23/09/2009 07:01:42 Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 23/09/2009 05:40:06 I am sure there will be plenty of people who cheerfully shoot themselves in the foot and form one man corps, I doubt they stay in them long <....> I've been seriously annoyed about this tax since I first saw it was planned. Today I logged in to find that I forgot to "top up" my skill queue, whch was empty. This stupid tax may not be enough to stop be paying my next subscription, but I think there's a connection. I've been playing a couple of months, currently doing L4 missions in a BC, working for the ISK to upgrade to Battleships. Not enough SP to join a good Corp, not enough patience to sort through the huge number of anonymous "we take anyone" Corps. I won't have my activities constrained by highSec gankbear trash Wardeccing me. Some spreadsheet-jockey in CCP has noted that people in player corps are more likely to play for a long time. As these halfwits do so often, they've mistaken correlation for causation, so they've decided to force everyone into player Corps, believing it will make new players stay. And the means they've chosen is comical: penalize new players who are working to get set up in the game. CCP: one thing new players do all the time is assess whether the game is fun now, and whether is likely to be fun as they get more established. Obviously it's about to become less fun for me. And I have 11% less confidence in the long-term fun-factor of EvE because it seems CCP has stopped using gamers to plan the games future, and has switched to "decision by bean-counter".
Vanzatoarea	Posted - 2009.09.23 07:08:00 - [698] Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: Naradius From an RP standpoint, I can see the relevance. As has already been mentioned, Concord needs paying. There is also a Factional War going on at the moment, and all those Militia pilots (via LP's) and Navy need paying...usually the public pay for their military force through...wait for it!...TAXES!!! You really don't want to go at this from an RP perspective. Because the realistic RP situation would be no wardecs, and life sentences in prison if you shoot anyone in highsec. Governments don't want wars to take place within their borders. They blow up stuff that has to be rebuilt by the government, and the local peasantry is greatly inconvenienced. So it makes no sense that you _can_ wardec another corp. So, let's not go into the 'realistic from an RP standpoint' concept, 'cause you really wouldn't like it if we made decisions that way. puny-minded from a realistic point of view any "strong" player alliance is more then a match for any of the empires military-wise. Capsuleers arent citizens , player-corps are playing on a state-level Concord has no more say in player corps at war with eachother then it has on empires at war with eachother From a RP point of view Concord isnt godmode From a RP point of view , your empire is a cesspool , a lawles place , or at least a place who`s laws and institutions I do not recognize . AT the very least another country , lesser country compared to my 0.0 alliance FFS stop thinking of yourselves as mere pesants , capsuleers are demi-gods...and all you want is to be treated like yet another nobody
Vanzatoarea	Posted - 2009.09.23 07:15:00 - [699] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Originally by: Tax This Well the flaw is that one can easily avoid the war dec. The result will however be an anti-social trend toward single/two man mission running corps. Which will in turn make all the gank bears that have whined and screamed for ages on the forums about this, whine and scream even more because their OWN actions got them what they wanted, but sadly for them, like all species that are eventually driven to extinction due to an inability to be able to adapt to a changing environment, they didn't think past their desire for an easy gank, to how insanely easy it will be to avoid being ganked. Not that they are REAL PvPers. High sec griefers are more care-bear than the care-bears they scream and whine about. They want fat EASY targets to post on their e-peen wagging kill boards, but don't realize all those mission runner ship and industrial ship kills really don't show anything but how utterly pathetic they are as PVPers. Put most of them up against someone that knows how to fight, and they will be on a REAL killboard. As a kill. They will of course attempt to deny it. But they are care bears as well. yet another imbecile who totaly mistakes PvP for "fair competition" PvP isnt going out finding skilled oponents , even fights , and god-knows what so you can have your skills tested against honorable foes . Dont let WoW or for that matter 99% of the mmo`s out there fooling you into thinking there consensual meaningless arena boxing matches are PvP PvP is war. PvP is about destroying your enemy. Does not matter if you understand the reason you are my enemy . In EvE , if you find yourself in a fair fight , you are doing something horibly wrong
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.23 07:43:00 - [700] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 23/09/2009 05:40:06 I am sure there will be plenty of people who cheerfully shoot themselves in the foot and form one man corps, I doubt they stay in them long. In doing so they give up any camaraderie they may have had with their friends in the NPC corp and give up their protection from war decs (yes, if you are in the habit of mouthing off in local you can and will end up getting war decced... and corp jumping to avoid war decs can get you banned), all for a few % more isk. Pretty foolish any way you look at it. Having an alt in an NPC corp doing level 4's is by far the most lucrative and safest niche in the game, I don't think anyone in this thread can seriously attempt to deny that. This blunts that edge slightly for the old timers and provides incentive to experience the game more fully to the new. You can complain all you like, you can evade it and do yourself more harm than good, but the fact remains that it is a good call by the developers and does no harm to anyone in the process. At worse it levels certain playing fields a bit. So suck it up people, your game just got a tiny bit more challenging. You'll survive. Corp jumping to avoid a war dec is only bannable if the corp closes (CCP has said this themselves). Players can leave a corp any time they want so long as the corp remains open. I'm not very social so making my own corp with an alt and then joining it, doesn't change my social habits anyway. I have local minimized all the time, and never talk in corp chat either. Nothing different if I am the only one in the corp channel, or if 300 people are in the corp channel. But I do agree that for most it won't be enjoyable at all because most people ARE more social than I am and they will soon be back into an NPC corp or join a more active player corp. For myself, the tax really changes nothing. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff

Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.23 08:01:00 - [701] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 23/09/2009 08:02:03 Originally by: Vanzatoarea Originally by: Lotus Sutra Originally by: Tax This Well the flaw is that one can easily avoid the war dec. The result will however be an anti-social trend toward single/two man mission running corps. Which will in turn make all the gank bears that have whined and screamed for ages on the forums about this, whine and scream even more because their OWN actions got them what they wanted, but sadly for them, like all species that are eventually driven to extinction due to an inability to be able to adapt to a changing environment, they didn't think past their desire for an easy gank, to how insanely easy it will be to avoid being ganked. Not that they are REAL PvPers. High sec griefers are more care-bear than the care-bears they scream and whine about. They want fat EASY targets to post on their e-peen wagging kill boards, but don't realize all those mission runner ship and industrial ship kills really don't show anything but how utterly pathetic they are as PVPers. Put most of them up against someone that knows how to fight, and they will be on a REAL killboard. As a kill. They will of course attempt to deny it. But they are care bears as well. yet another imbecile who totaly mistakes PvP for "fair competition" PvP isnt going out finding skilled oponents , even fights , and god-knows what so you can have your skills tested against honorable foes . Dont let WoW or for that matter 99% of the mmo`s out there fooling you into thinking there consensual meaningless arena boxing matches are PvP PvP is war. PvP is about destroying your enemy. Does not matter if you understand the reason you are my enemy . In EvE , if you find yourself in a fair fight , you are doing something horibly wrong That is how YOU think. It is also how many players in EVE think, but it is not how I think, and it is not how others think. You want lawlessness and chaos. I don't. While EVE does lean towards your side of the equation, it doesn't do so completely. This leaves the area of EVE that I am comfortable and happy in. There is room in EVE for both areas. Oh and so you know, it takes no skill for 40 people to kill 1 person, non at all. Any mindless, soulless mob can do that, and it is not pvp. You are a part of the social disease of the world (our world, not the game) if you think that there is no honor in or rules to war, because there is and there have always BEEN rules and honor in war. They are not always followed, but when they are not followed, the world generally takes issue with it and explains it to the offending countries/armies/individuals in terms they can't mistake. Sadly in this day and age, thinkers like yourself are more common than they once were, and honor and rules are slowly falling by the wayside. It's a shame really. Imbeciles like you are why the world is an increasingly sorry place to live in. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Xing Fey	Posted - 2009.09.23 08:29:00 - [702] Originally by: Lotus Sutra That is how YOU think. It is also how many players in EVE think, but it is not how I think, and it is not how others think. You want lawlessness and chaos. I don't. While EVE does lean towards your side of the equation, it doesn't do so completely. This leaves the area of EVE that I am comfortable and happy in. There is room in EVE for both areas. Apparently not, according to the devs. Quote: Oh and so you know, it takes no skill for 40 people to kill 1 person, non at all. So? What? This is not an argument at all. Quote: Sadly in this day and age, thinkers like yourself are more common than they once were, and honor and rules are slowly falling by the wayside./quote] Screw honour, I want your stuff.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.23 08:36:00 - [703] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 23/09/2009 08:36:41 Originally by: Xing Fey Originally by: Lotus Sutra That is how YOU think. It is also how many players in EVE think, but it is not how I think, and it is not how others think. You want lawlessness and chaos. I don't. While EVE does lean towards your side of the equation, it doesn't do so completely. This leaves the area of EVE that I am comfortable and happy in. There is room in EVE for both areas. Apparently not, according to the devs. Quote: Oh and so you know, it takes no skill for 40 people to kill 1 person, non at all. So? What? This is not an argument at all. Quote: Sadly in this day and age, thinkers like yourself are more common than they once were, and honor and rules are slowly falling by the wayside./quote] Quote: Screw honour, I want your stuff. LOL. Your wrong on the first part, or there would be no high sec. Your wrong on the second part, you just don't choose to see it as a valid argument. Your funny on the third part, thats what made me LOL. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Kherho S1n	Posted - 2009.09.23 09:06:00 - [704] That 11% penalty sounds good for me but it just hurts missionrunner.. what about the miners? why dont make npc corp miners less efficiant and reduce their ore amount per cycle for 5%. it should be a primary interrest to join a corp, equal what you want to do in eve! for example we declared war to an macrominer corp.. they leave and join npc. so we had no possibility left to disturb them.. with a 5% penalty they would think twice about change to npc for a longer time. sorry for my bad english ;-)
Xing Fey	Posted - 2009.09.23 09:11:00 - [705] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 23/09/2009 08:41:10 Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 23/09/2009 08:37:15 Originally by: Xing Fey Originally by: Lotus Sutra That is how YOU think. It is also how many players in EVE think, but it is not how I think, and it is not how others think. You want lawlessness and chaos. I don't. While EVE does lean towards your side of the equation, it doesn't do so completely. This leaves the area of EVE that I am comfortable and happy in. There is room in EVE for both areas. Apparently not, according to the devs. Quote: Oh and so you know, it takes no skill for 40 people to kill 1 person, non at all. So? What? This is not an argument at all. Quote: Sadly in this day and age, thinkers like yourself are more common than they once were, and honor and rules are slowly falling by the wayside. Quote: Screw honour, I want your stuff. LOL. Your wrong on the first part, or there would be no high sec. Your wrong on the second part, you just don't choose to see it as a valid argument. Your funny on the third part, thats what made me LOL. And you haven't chosen to see my valid argument! meanie
Prof Pain SmokingGuns Corp	Posted - 2009.09.23 09:18:00 - [706] Originally by: Vanzatoarea ...stuff youÆre not making sense and repeat slogans and words imprinted by others as if you had no brain of your own. to the topic: as much as i feel inclined to the role playing elements of eve and as much as i donÆt care about a tax on npc corps, i feel strongly compelled by the blatant misuse of the rp-argument towards this: - if taxes are supposed to pay for the "infrastructure, security and a host of other financially demanding services"[ccp sw] the npc corps provide, than everybody would have to pay them; player corps as well. - if "a government that refuses to tax"[ccp sw] is not a real scenario, id like your recommendation to the insurance that pays me for intentionally wracking my ride or getting this ride shot in the course of me robbing a bank for instance. as matter of fact i¦m not feeling strong about the change itself. i¦m offended by one of the worst devblogs I know of. For one itÆs not even making the attempt to have a solid base of arguments, but hides behind half*ss rp arguments. Secondly the proposed solution (tax) obviously fails its proclaimed goal of inspiring the use of socialising player corps. It will even further hinder it through an increase in 1man corps, as was explained many times. So devs, care to be honest? You either try to hide your real intentions and maybe want to battle inflation through another isk sink, or you try to shape the game by your own preferences, not openly telling it, because it would repel customers. If the seconds holds true, you should really have a talk with your sales staff and stop them praising the sandbox all over trailers and the webside. Thank you.
Count Helmchen	Posted - 2009.09.23 09:33:00 - [707] MOAR TAXES CCP! MOAR!!! It should be 25% if you are in a NPC corp , raising each week by another 1% up to 75% ... corp-jumping should result into perma 75% tax gogogo, kill carebears hiding in npc corps!!!!! HAHA PS: cloaky 0.0 ravens should pay 89% taxes! if you are an achura alt, make it 97%!
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.23 09:39:00 - [708] Originally by: Xing Fey And you haven't chosen to see my valid argument! meanie lol I'm sorry. Here let me wipe those tears from off your view screen for you. I am rather enjoying this thread. I keep wanting so bad to admit that I think CCP should really apply the tax to ALL transactions and activities. Start charging docking/undocking fees etc. I think they should do that for everyone across the board. Flat fee to dock/undock from any station you are in unless your corporation has an office at the station or +5 or higher standing with that corporation. The tears from implementing that would be totally epic and a dry planet like Mars would become a salty ocean world from it all. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Kherho S1n	Posted - 2009.09.23 09:39:00 - [709] its funny to read what npc corp members say to get this 11% idea under the desk.. this is not about to pay something with this 11% its to bring more people on the way ccp wants! this is no single player universe, and the npc corps just exist as a placeholder when you get out of an player corp. tell me atleast one reason why it is good for this game to let ppl stay in npc corps a long time without any negative point. in a rp corp you have obligations, with or without tax. for example you need to interact correct with ppl around or you have to live with the consequences inside your corp and the universe.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.23 09:47:00 - [710] Originally by: Kherho S1n its funny to read what npc corp members say to get this 11% idea under the desk.. this is not about to pay something with this 11% its to bring more people on the way ccp wants! this is no single player universe, and the npc corps just exist as a placeholder when you get out of an player corp. tell me atleast one reason why it is good for this game to let ppl stay in npc corps a long time without any negative point. in a rp corp you have obligations, with or without tax. for example you need to interact correct with ppl around or you have to live with the consequences inside your corp and the universe. Why do people 'need' to interact with other people if they are content doing other things? ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff

Doddy The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.23 09:48:00 - [711] Originally by: Gsptlsnz I've been playing a couple of months, currently doing L4 missions in a BC And here lies the problem, someone playing the game 2 months and doing level 4 missions. You should have to play alot longer to get to the end-game of solo PvE play tbh, never mind being able to do it with free immunity to other players. The fact that how much isk you are making determies how much fun you are having is also a bit worrying tbh.
Kherho S1n	Posted - 2009.09.23 10:06:00 - [712] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 23/09/2009 09:55:19 Originally by: Kherho S1n its funny to read what npc corp members say to get this 11% idea under the desk.. this is not about to pay something with this 11% its to bring more people on the way ccp wants! this is no single player universe, and the npc corps just exist as a placeholder when you get out of an player corp. tell me atleast one reason why it is good for this game to let ppl stay in npc corps a long time without any negative point. in a rp corp you have obligations, with or without tax. for example you need to interact correct with ppl around or you have to live with the consequences inside your corp and the universe. Why do people 'need' to interact with other people if they are content doing other things that don't require that interaction? Someone comes into a mission I am running to salvage and loot the wrecks I make, I shoot the wrecks. That is about all the interaction I need on my mission runner. I fly into low/null sec with my PVP alt, find a good fight or two. That is all the interaction I need on my PVP alt. I toy with prices in jita on this toon, watching as someone tries to outbid me, or undercut me or pay more for an item I want. That is all the interaction I need on my market alt. I don't need to be social with anyone. I don't need to talk to other players. I don't need anyone else to help me accomplish my goals in this game. I can do without the player corp drama and politics. I can do without the Alliance drama and politics. I can do without individual players drama and politics. I interact in the game when and where I want to do so, and how I want to... for the most part anyway. My PVP alt does get into the occasional situation where he doesn't even get the courtesy of a reach around but other than those occasions, I generally choose when and where I engage players in my interactions with them. Not CCP. this is exacly what i mean.. you just can do so couse you live in a npc corp. and as it will be only fair there (hopefully) came this 11% tax. you not "need" to interact with others.. you can create your own corp with 0%tax and never talk with anyone.. your choice! ^^ but you cant hide inside a npc no one can wartag you if you macromine for example.. i dont want to make your personal way to play harder.. but in this hole universe it can be a positive change
Prof Pain SmokingGuns Corp	Posted - 2009.09.23 10:13:00 - [713] Originally by: Doddy And here lies the problem, someone playing the game 2 months and doing level 4 missions. You should have to play alot longer to get to the end-game of solo PvE play tbh, never mind being able to do it with free immunity to other players. The fact that how much isk you are making determies how much fun you are having is also a bit worrying tbh. why should he? because you were not able to? im sure hes not steam rolling them, but rather struggles and still does it. and shouldnt i be allowed to do l4s in my wolf, because maybe you think, everybody has to use battleships? the point is, i dont like people, trying to tell me what and how the f*** i have to do things. and thats probably the reason, so many people stay in the their starter corps or return to them. i for instance have an alt in a npc corp as well and i like the anonymity from time to time. i also like the npc corp channel and had many delightful chats there. to your second point; i remember being a young player and isk is very important then. you simply never have enough to buy skill books, named equipment or the new bc you trained for. so yes i understand, why hes not feeling comfortable about that change.
Katarina Shadows	Posted - 2009.09.23 10:16:00 - [714] Oh dear, there is so much infantile, playground animosity in this thread it is positively unbelievable. So many childish individuals demonstrating the mental capacity of a hairless simian smearing itself with its own faeces and behaving in a manner I haven't seen since I was 9 and used to bully my younger sister. I was attracted to this game because unlike other MMOs it was actually considered relatively difficult and thus required some effort to play and yet the longer I play the more it seems the developers are merely trying to create a product that appeals to the baser aspects of human nature. There are so many replies in this thread that offer no constructive input but are just people openly gloating at the distress of others and even more posts which are just designed to anger and insult other players and yet the moderators to do nothing to remove these posts. I would ask the people in this thread who are gloating and being vociferously in favour of this change to demonstrate undeniably how this change will actively benefit them and their play-style because as far as I can see so far none of them have , they are just here to annoy the "carebears". If, as I suspect, these people are just "trolling" may I respectfully invoke rule 7 of the forum rules and politely ask the moderators to remove their input from this disccussion. Now I fully understand this post will be instantly met with such Einsteinian replies as "Cry more" and "Your tears fuel me" to which I can only retort "You've got brown on you."
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.23 10:21:00 - [715] @Doddy You don't decide what I think is or isn't fun. Nor does CCP, though it's a lot easier for them to influence it. I pay my subscription, I do what I want among the things the game allows me to do. This is a game. CCP can force me to stop playing. But they can't force me to do anything I don't want to do.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.23 10:24:00 - [716] Originally by: Kherho S1n Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 23/09/2009 09:55:19 Originally by: Kherho S1n its funny to read what npc corp members say to get this 11% idea under the desk.. this is not about to pay something with this 11% its to bring more people on the way ccp wants! this is no single player universe, and the npc corps just exist as a placeholder when you get out of an player corp. tell me atleast one reason why it is good for this game to let ppl stay in npc corps a long time without any negative point. in a rp corp you have obligations, with or without tax. for example you need to interact correct with ppl around or you have to live with the consequences inside your corp and the universe. Why do people 'need' to interact with other people if they are content doing other things that don't require that interaction? Someone comes into a mission I am running to salvage and loot the wrecks I make, I shoot the wrecks. That is about all the interaction I need on my mission runner. I fly into low/null sec with my PVP alt, find a good fight or two. That is all the interaction I need on my PVP alt. I toy with prices in jita on this toon, watching as someone tries to outbid me, or undercut me or pay more for an item I want. That is all the interaction I need on my market alt. I don't need to be social with anyone. I don't need to talk to other players. I don't need anyone else to help me accomplish my goals in this game. I can do without the player corp drama and politics. I can do without the Alliance drama and politics. I can do without individual players drama and politics. I interact in the game when and where I want to do so, and how I want to... for the most part anyway. My PVP alt does get into the occasional situation where he doesn't even get the courtesy of a reach around but other than those occasions, I generally choose when and where I engage players in my interactions with them. Not CCP. this is exacly what i mean.. you just can do so couse you live in a npc corp. and as it will be only fair there (hopefully) came this 11% tax. you not "need" to interact with others.. you can create your own corp with 0%tax and never talk with anyone.. your choice! ^^ but you cant hide inside a npc no one can wartag you if you macromine for example.. i dont want to make your personal way to play harder.. but in this hole universe it can be a positive change Don't get me wrong, I actually think the tax is a good idea on the one hand, but I think the implementation and reasoning behind it is pure bull droppings. CCP should have just called it what it really is, a tax on mission runners in yet another failed attempt to placate the screamers and whiners who are furious that mission runners in an NPC corp can make isk without them being able to force them to dock (grief play, that it is obvious CCP promotes). It has no actual effect on me. I'm in my own corp. I never undock. And a war dec will have no effect on me except to make me laugh at the idiot(s) that did it. Same for my mission runner. I'm ready to create multiple alt corps at the drop of a war dec, just so the griefers can scream and cry about it while I laugh at them. My pvp character is already in a corp. None of this will really effect me at all. I'm just enjoying stiring the pot ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Nicolo da'Vicenza Amarr Dissonance Corp Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.09.23 10:25:00 - [717] A whole lot of entitlement on being able to live in the newbie training corp year after year.
Kherho S1n	Posted - 2009.09.23 10:39:00 - [718] Originally by: Prof Pain Originally by: Doddy And here lies the problem, someone playing the game 2 months and doing level 4 missions. You should have to play alot longer to get to the end-game of solo PvE play tbh, never mind being able to do it with free immunity to other players. The fact that how much isk you are making determies how much fun you are having is also a bit worrying tbh. why should he? because you were not able to? im sure hes not steam rolling them, but rather struggles and still does it. and shouldnt i be allowed to do l4s in my wolf, because maybe you think, everybody has to use battleships? the point is, i dont like people, trying to tell me what and how the f*** i have to do things. and thats probably the reason, so many people stay in the their starter corps or return to them. i for instance have an alt in a npc corp as well and i like the anonymity from time to time. i also like the npc corp channel and had many delightful chats there. to your second point; i remember being a young player and isk is very important then. you simply never have enough to buy skill books, named equipment or the new bc you trained for. so yes i understand, why hes not feeling comfortable about that change. no one told you what you have to do if you create your own corp ;-)
Kherho S1n	Posted - 2009.09.23 10:45:00 - [719] Originally by: Katarina Shadows Oh dear, there is so much infantile, playground animosity in this thread it is positively unbelievable. So many childish individuals demonstrating the mental capacity of a hairless simian smearing itself with its own faeces and behaving in a manner I haven't seen since I was 9 and used to bully my younger sister. I was attracted to this game because unlike other MMOs it was actually considered relatively difficult and thus required some effort to play and yet the longer I play the more it seems the developers are merely trying to create a product that appeals to the baser aspects of human nature. There are so many replies in this thread that offer no constructive input but are just people openly gloating at the distress of others and even more posts which are just designed to anger and insult other players and yet the moderators to do nothing to remove these posts. I would ask the people in this thread who are gloating and being vociferously in favour of this change to demonstrate undeniably how this change will actively benefit them and their play-style because as far as I can see so far none of them have , they are just here to annoy the "carebears". If, as I suspect, these people are just "trolling" may I respectfully invoke rule 7 of the forum rules and politely ask the moderators to remove their input from this disccussion. Now I fully understand this post will be instantly met with such Einsteinian replies as "Cry more" and "Your tears fuel me" to which I can only retort "You've got brown on you." "is so much infantile", "So many childish individuals", "I haven't seen since I was 9 and used to bully my younger sister"... youre the only in here doing what you criticize ^^ sorry dude, i cant see any "constructive input" from your side ;-)
Katarina Shadows	Posted - 2009.09.23 10:56:00 - [720] Edited by: Katarina Shadows on 23/09/2009 10:56:23 Originally by: Kherho S1n Originally by: Katarina Shadows Oh dear, there is so much infantile, playground animosity in this thread it is positively unbelievable. So many childish individuals demonstrating the mental capacity of a hairless simian smearing itself with its own faeces and behaving in a manner I haven't seen since I was 9 and used to bully my younger sister. I was attracted to this game because unlike other MMOs it was actually considered relatively difficult and thus required some effort to play and yet the longer I play the more it seems the developers are merely trying to create a product that appeals to the baser aspects of human nature. There are so many replies in this thread that offer no constructive input but are just people openly gloating at the distress of others and even more posts which are just designed to anger and insult other players and yet the moderators to do nothing to remove these posts. I would ask the people in this thread who are gloating and being vociferously in favour of this change to demonstrate undeniably how this change will actively benefit them and their play-style because as far as I can see so far none of them have , they are just here to annoy the "carebears". If, as I suspect, these people are just "trolling" may I respectfully invoke rule 7 of the forum rules and politely ask the moderators to remove their input from this disccussion. Now I fully understand this post will be instantly met with such Einsteinian replies as "Cry more" and "Your tears fuel me" to which I can only retort "You've got brown on you." "is so much infantile", "So many childish individuals", "I haven't seen since I was 9 and used to bully my younger sister"... youre the only in here doing what you criticize ^^ sorry dude, i cant see any "constructive input" from your side ;-) The constructive input is asking the moderators to remove all of the troll posts and in the interest of fairness I would ask them to do this for posters on both side of the argument. Also the post you quoted hasn't been my only contribution to this thread but I wouldn't really expect you to realise that. Your reply, however, added what exactly? Furthermore I would argue that by pointing out how immature some of the comments being made have been I am taking the first steps towards turning this into a sensible and serious discussion rather than the futile flamefest it has become. While I have severe doubts as to the success of my endeavour one can never hope to achieve anything without trying.

Kherho S1n	Posted - 2009.09.23 11:15:00 - [721] Originally by: Katarina Shadows Edited by: Katarina Shadows on 23/09/2009 10:56:23 Originally by: Kherho S1n Originally by: Katarina Shadows Oh dear, there is so much infantile, playground animosity in this thread it is positively unbelievable. So many childish individuals demonstrating the mental capacity of a hairless simian smearing itself with its own faeces and behaving in a manner I haven't seen since I was 9 and used to bully my younger sister. I was attracted to this game because unlike other MMOs it was actually considered relatively difficult and thus required some effort to play and yet the longer I play the more it seems the developers are merely trying to create a product that appeals to the baser aspects of human nature. There are so many replies in this thread that offer no constructive input but are just people openly gloating at the distress of others and even more posts which are just designed to anger and insult other players and yet the moderators to do nothing to remove these posts. I would ask the people in this thread who are gloating and being vociferously in favour of this change to demonstrate undeniably how this change will actively benefit them and their play-style because as far as I can see so far none of them have , they are just here to annoy the "carebears". If, as I suspect, these people are just "trolling" may I respectfully invoke rule 7 of the forum rules and politely ask the moderators to remove their input from this disccussion. Now I fully understand this post will be instantly met with such Einsteinian replies as "Cry more" and "Your tears fuel me" to which I can only retort "You've got brown on you." "is so much infantile", "So many childish individuals", "I haven't seen since I was 9 and used to bully my younger sister"... youre the only in here doing what you criticize ^^ sorry dude, i cant see any "constructive input" from your side ;-) The constructive input is asking the moderators to remove all of the troll posts and in the interest of fairness I would ask them to do this for posters on both side of the argument. Also the post you quoted hasn't been my only contribution to this thread but I wouldn't really expect you to realise that. Your reply, however, added what exactly? Furthermore I would argue that by pointing out how immature some of the comments being made have been I am taking the first steps towards turning this into a sensible and serious discussion rather than the futile flamefest it has become. While I have severe doubts as to the success of my endeavour one can never hope to achieve anything without trying. whats wrong with you? cant you argue without personal attack in every post? do you know me that you can expect something from me? my replay is a reaction of your personal attacks against ppl in here combined with your arrogance. i dont believe it would be constructive to delete posts, equal if you think they are usefull. the last posts only became non sensible and non serious becouse you beginn to ride on personal attacks. lets keep this thematically and not offensive.
Harkwyth Mist Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.09.23 11:31:00 - [722] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Originally by: Xing Fey And you haven't chosen to see my valid argument! meanie lol I'm sorry. Here let me wipe those tears from off your view screen for you. I am rather enjoying this thread. I keep wanting so bad to admit that I think CCP should really apply the tax to ALL transactions and activities. Start charging docking/undocking fees etc. I think they should do that for everyone across the board. Flat fee to dock/undock from any station you are in unless your corporation has an office at the station or +5 or higher standing with that corporation. The tears from implementing that would be totally epic and a dry planet like Mars would become a salty ocean world from it all. And gate taxes !!!... Seriously though, a docking Tax would actually hurt the newer players more than the long term players, as new players won't have the standings needed to avoid them, where most longterm mission runners will. It could have the benefit of possibly making people think more about joining a non-npc corp, but that would become a moot point once they reached the standings threshhold. In principle I like the idea, but i can't see something like this ever getting the 'green light' as it won't affect the right targets.
AsheraII	Posted - 2009.09.23 11:39:00 - [723] Originally by: Arcelian So whats to stop someone from just making their own one or two man corp and putting the tax to 0%? Wardecs, since it makes them a legal target to be shot anywhere by another corp. Though I'm not sure wardeccing every 1-2 men corp you encounter just to get your PvP shots in highsec will be a really profitable experience. People just need to move to some other set of starsystems to get away from you, while it costs your corp 2m isk to start the war. By the time the war is officially started, the target mini-corp is notified and will probably just move away. So yes, w'll probably see many more 1-2 men lonewolf corps appearing now.
Katarina Shadows	Posted - 2009.09.23 11:55:00 - [724] Edited by: Katarina Shadows on 23/09/2009 11:55:10 Originally by: Kherho S1n whats wrong with you? cant you argue without personal attack in every post? do you know me that you can expect something from me? my replay is a reaction of your personal attacks against ppl in here combined with your arrogance. i dont believe it would be constructive to delete posts, equal if you think they are usefull. the last posts only became non sensible and non serious becouse you beginn to ride on personal attacks. lets keep this thematically and not offensive. There is nothing wrong with me but I thank you most graciously for your expression of concern for my wellbeing. Yes I am more than capable of having an argument without resorting to personal attack and in fact I maintain I have done so throughout, however, please feel free to identify the person I have attacked with any of my posts if you construe otherwise. No I do not know you and in fact I only find myself conversing with you as you took it upon yourself to single me out and attempt to deconstruct my comments by partially quoting them to the point they lost context. That does not tend to be a very successful debating technique, by the way, as it is too easy to rebut. You claim to make a reply (or at least I believe that is what you intended to say) to personal attacks made by myself and again I would ask you please to identify the person I have attacked with any of my posts. When debating a topic it is a far more successful strategy to attack the argument and not the person making the argument and as I am aware of this it tends to be the tactic I employ. Pointing out that many of the arguments being made lack maturity is not a personal attack it is merely a statement of fact that anyone can verify by reading back through the (to date) 24 pages of posts. You claim I make personal attacks instead of argument and then proceed to call me arrogant. OK I will, for the sake of expedience, ignore the blatant irony and instead point out that arrogance is defined as unfounded conviction in one's own belief. Since it is immediately viable for anyone choosing to do so to read back through the pages of this thread and identify countless immature arguments being made I would postulate that my beliefs are therefore not unfounded. Hence I fail to see how this fulfills the definition of arrogance. It would be difficult for anyone to deny there are a lot of children posting in this thread and also that a lot of the comments being made lack maturity. I chose to point this out as many such comments add nothing of worth and serve only to inflame what is obviously a very emotive subject. For some reason you chose to take offence at that but I can assure you that, other than my questioning what exactly you hoped to achieve by taking my comments out of context, nothing I have stated was aimed at you personally. I suspect you could not state the same in reverse.
AsheraII	Posted - 2009.09.23 11:55:00 - [725] Originally by: Ukucia They currently interact with others via the NPC corp channel. They just don't want others telling them what to do (be in a player corp) or have to tell others what to do (create their own corp). But they'll still chat. I'd rather be completely corpless than in an NPC corp. Game mechanics just don't allow it. Oh, and this is a recurring question in rookie help chat I might add: "Can I be not in a corp, not even an NPC one?". I see it a few times a day, and I don't even have chat constantly open, only while I'm docked. Sometimes while bored and docked, I enter rookie chat while I still can. I never, ever even look at corp chat. I'd rather close my chat windows than minimize them. Funny enough, the only options available for that window are PIN and MINIMIZE.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.23 12:22:00 - [726] Edited by: Hamshoe on 23/09/2009 12:23:06 Originally by: Ranger 1 ... At worse it levels certain playing fields a bit. ... The official line is still that this is intended to encourage players to join player run corporations. The obvious approach to that goal is to improve the player corp experience. Deciding to make the alternative to the goal suck to an equal degree is the very definition of fail. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.23 12:32:00 - [727] Originally by: Ranger 1 ... and corp jumping to avoid war decs can get you banned... Nope! Please look at this then.... Originally by: GM Nythanos Hello, For #1, Closing a corporation and opening a new one with the same members is allowed, and the people who declared war on your now closed corporation can declare a new war on your new corporation if they choose to do so. For #2, Using alt corps to increase the cost of wars against your corporation or alliance is prohibited. To help clarify this, there are restrictions with regards to joining and leaving corporation, such as mentioned here: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2317&tid=1 This is an official GM ruling posted on EO less than 3 months ago..... Ok, it does speak about closing a corp and opening another one and not directly about hopping between corp, but this is how 1-man corp WOULD do it since you can do that in 5 seconds (at a minor ISK cost). Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Zantris	Posted - 2009.09.23 12:46:00 - [728] Edited by: Zantris on 23/09/2009 12:46:32 The problem isn't 1 man corps avoiding wardecs, its that the wardec mechanics suck. Until you place mechanics in that prevent larger corps from picking on newb/smaller player corps in what basically equates to sanctioned no-risk highsec piracy, players won't leave the NPC corps. Wardecs are great when its a actual fair fight, but 99% of the time its a bigger dog ****ing all over a puppy. Put more limitations on wardecs and you'll see more players coming out of NPC corps. At the same time you get rid of this lame no-risk piracy that wardeccing has evolved into.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.23 12:49:00 - [729] Edited by: Kerfira on 23/09/2009 12:49:07 Originally by: AsheraII Originally by: Arcelian So whats to stop someone from just making their own one or two man corp and putting the tax to 0%? Wardecs, since it makes them a legal target to be shot anywhere by another corp. Allow me to educate you.... Corp A pays 2m ISK to wardec corp B (a 1-man corp) Member of corp B logs on, sees he has an active wardec. Member of corp B press the 'Disband' button on his corp page. Ex-member of corp B press the 'Create' button on his corp page (cost 1.6m ISK). Ex-member of corp B is now a member of non-wardec'ed corp C. Corp A fumes in silent anger at their wasted 2m ISK! Seriously, wardec's are a paper tiger..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kherho S1n	Posted - 2009.09.23 12:59:00 - [730] Edited by: Kherho S1n on 23/09/2009 13:00:06 Edited by: Kherho S1n on 23/09/2009 12:59:40 Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 23/09/2009 12:49:07 Originally by: AsheraII Originally by: Arcelian So whats to stop someone from just making their own one or two man corp and putting the tax to 0%? Wardecs, since it makes them a legal target to be shot anywhere by another corp. Allow me to educate you.... Corp A pays 2m ISK to wardec corp B (a 1-man corp) Member of corp B logs on, sees he has an active wardec. Member of corp B press the 'Disband' button on his corp page. Ex-member of corp B press the 'Create' button on his corp page (cost 1.6m ISK). Ex-member of corp B is now a member of non-wardec'ed corp C. Corp A fumes in silent anger at their wasted 2m ISK! Seriously, wardec's are a paper tiger..... thats right. and if they want to fool you completely they join npc corp.. the easiest step to get away wardec. we see that after we declare war to a macrominer corp.

Hydra Ki Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.09.23 13:22:00 - [731] 11% is too low for all the benifits the npc corporations offer to thier pilots. Adjusting that tax rate higher, like 53 to 86% tax rate would be more benificial to the npc corp player communities. Fees, Export and Import Taxes could also benifit the players in npc corps as well, for npc corporations excellent assistance in refining, manufactering, contracts, market buy, sell orders, and adjustments to existing orders. This next patch is looking great so far, keep it up guys.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.23 14:26:00 - [732] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 23/09/2009 14:28:10 Originally by: Hydra Ki Adjusting that tax rate higher, like 53 to 86% tax rate would be more benificial to the npc corp player communities. 86%?? Are you serious? Have you gone completely mad? That is WAY TOO unreasonable. I'm thinking more like 88%. That is more in line. Don't you think?
Hydra Ki Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.09.23 14:43:00 - [733] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 23/09/2009 14:28:10 Originally by: Hydra Ki Adjusting that tax rate higher, like 53 to 86% tax rate would be more benificial to the npc corp player communities. 86%?? Are you serious? Have you gone completely mad? That is WAY TOO unreasonable. I'm thinking more like 88%. That is more in line. Don't you think? After giving your tax evaluation proposal considerable thought, i concur with your judgement. The NPC Coporation benifits and safety in high security space has been given away and taken for granted for far too long.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2009.09.23 14:58:00 - [734] 11% is an ok isksink, but if the purpose is to push players out of npc corps i dont see working, people will just stay there (or at best join 1man corps) for the safety or will start to leave the game if more extreme measures will be put in place i think people will need some "protection" for their gamestyle. wardecs need to be dealt with as too many times it becomes a way to get some cheap kills if not to harass people... same can be said for corp scams... make corps more safe and desirable and people will join them Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
X Kent Respect Legionnaires	Posted - 2009.09.23 15:10:00 - [735] 11% is nothing, it will not move that 4-5 year old all faction fitted caldari navy raven monkey away from his state war academy. Tax should be 20%-25%
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.23 15:14:00 - [736] Originally by: X Kent 11% is nothing, it will not move that 4-5 year old all faction fitted caldari navy raven monkey away from his state war academy. Tax should be 20%-25% The real question is will this change be enough to satisfy the spiteful name-calling haters such as yourself.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.23 15:16:00 - [737] Originally by: X Kent 11% is nothing, it will not move that 4-5 year old all faction fitted caldari navy raven monkey away from his state war academy. Tax should be 20%-25% Actually now I hope that Ccp will raise it to 60%. Just so that all of you will see that tax is not why people stay in Npc corps.
Blackthorney	Posted - 2009.09.23 17:37:00 - [738] I'm not entire positive, but I think upon checking my "transactions" wallet log this morning, the tax was being applied to the sale of loot to buy orders. If the 11% tax will be applied to everything, I'm definitely going to make myself a 1-man corp.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.23 17:52:00 - [739] Originally by: Blackthorney I'm not entire positive, but I think upon checking my "transactions" wallet log this morning, the tax was being applied to the sale of loot to buy orders. If the 11% tax will be applied to everything, I'm definitely going to make myself a 1-man corp. Market taxes != corp taxes. There have always been market taxes.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.23 18:06:00 - [740] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 23/09/2009 14:28:10 Originally by: Hydra Ki Adjusting that tax rate higher, like 53 to 86% tax rate would be more benificial to the npc corp player communities. 86%?? Are you serious? Have you gone completely mad? That is WAY TOO unreasonable. I'm thinking more like 88%. That is more in line. Don't you think? 69% at least it has some other connotation.

Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.23 18:38:00 - [741] Okay, try looking at it this way. You stick it to the man by forming your own 1 person corp. Go you. But then you find yourself missing corp chat and the several friends that you had made in your NPC corp. You know, the ones that you actually trust and enjoy flying with. So one of these people convo's you, and lo, he admits that he misses the old gang as well and is considering going back despite the 11%. And before you know it you find yourself saying those evil words "Well ya know, if you joined my corp we'd still have no tax and would share the same corp chat again. It might even be handy to have that corp hanger for us to both have access to." Before you know it, not only is he in your corp but so are all of your old buddies from the NPC corp, having a great time and making more isk than ever before by working more closely and easily together. Then it hits you, and it chills your heart. You have become the enemy, you have become the man, you cannot be trusted, you player corp CEO you. So you boss everyone around for awhile, turn into a complete jerk, and ultimately steal the corp wallet... because, ya know, thats what they all do. To sum up, I heartily concur. How dare CCP give you incentive to go in this direction ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.23 18:51:00 - [742] Edited by: Julian Lynq on 23/09/2009 18:52:00 Originally by: Ranger 1 miss corp chat ? friends from the npc corp ? shall I ever miss corp chat I will chat in local. Same quality conversation in there.. I am not making friends in corp chat either. I am a solo player. If I could I would be in no corp at all. It doesn¦t make sense anyway to be employed by one corp, but do the actual work for another. but maybe you look at it this way: Ccp makes changes that does not profit you, or ANYONE. They try fixes without knowing what the problem is. They are become too arogant to even argue with the players about it. Even worse they insult their paying customers and accuse them of RMT trading only because they are in npc corps. Again: the uproar is not about the change it is about everything surrounding it beginning with how it was thought off ending with how it is communicated. And this kind of Ccp behaviour can and propably will hit you too at some point. then they will call YOU stuff and tell you that your style of play now doesnt fit anymore in their vision of the game. mark my words.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.23 19:13:00 - [743] Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.23 19:21:00 - [744] Originally by: Ranger 1 Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway. Maybe that's because if they wanted to be a CEO they'd already be doing it, and if they wanted to work for a CEO they'd be doing that. Why is that so hard to understand? Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.23 19:21:00 - [745] Originally by: Ranger 1 Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway. And some of the other half of the most compelling arguments have been from people that are lone wolf players. However I note with grace that you agree that the arguments of the npc player people are the some of the most compelling.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.23 19:26:00 - [746] Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: Ranger 1 Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway. Maybe that's because if they wanted to be a CEO they'd already be doing it, and if they wanted to work for a CEO they'd be doing that. Why is that so hard to understand? Why is it so hard to understand that you can continue just as you are? ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.23 20:01:00 - [747] Edited by: Julian Lynq on 23/09/2009 20:02:08 Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 23/09/2009 19:24:24 Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway. By the way, CCP never said all NPC corp members are into RMT. However, since it "is" a widespread problem in NPC corps this step also helps to address this issue. Bonus points. In the many years since beta I have often been seriously affected by game play changes far more sweeping than this. Frankly, this in nothing... a tempest in a tea cup if you will. The effect on people in NPC corps is minimal at best (you can reference people using this same point as an arguement not to do it), and has had pretty much universal support including many people that are still in NPC corps. This is an inducement, and a balancing, nothing more. Happens all the time in this game, as it should. And as far a CCP "justifying and explaining" their decision... you got a concise statement. I'm afraid they aren't going to post the meeting notes from the last few months for your perusal. If it were a big deal they might go more in depth, but tbh it is not. If it were not a big deal there were not two threads >20 pages about controverse discussion about it. Saying this step addresses the issue of rmt trading is complete nonsense. 11% more tax address RMT trading ? how ? Because RMT traders will now join PVP alliances ? Is that your logic ? And what CCP Prism said remains what he said. Wether or not you interpret it to be towards all NPC corp members it is full of arrogance towards them. Originally by: CCP Prism X For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT. Thankfully they don't let draconian little me design stuff.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.23 20:08:00 - [748] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Hamshoe Originally by: Ranger 1 Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway. Maybe that's because if they wanted to be a CEO they'd already be doing it, and if they wanted to work for a CEO they'd be doing that. Why is that so hard to understand? Why is it so hard to understand that you can continue just as you are? It's not. The point you're avoiding is that if people wanted to be in player corps, they already would be. I mean, it is a pretty evident possibility in the game. It's not some mysterious, hidden mechanic. Some folks just choose not to.I don't think they should be penalized for that choice, and I don't understand the jealousy of people who do want to be in player corps. I also think it's terrible design. Imagine the following: You build a toll road. You want people to use the toll road because, well, it makes you money. Turns out people who use the toll road are likely to use it longer, and thus make you more money. Now, a certain percentage of drivers just don't like your nice shiny toll road, in spite of all it's obvious advantages. Maybe they don't like the scenery, the other drivers, the toll booths, the accident rate, whatever. Now, in order to convince more drivers to use your toll road do you: a.) Improve the service on the toll road, provide easier access, clearer signage, etc. b.) Try to make the other routes people use suck as much as your toll road. Option "b" is a confession of failure. I don't understand the support for that. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Ethaet Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.09.23 20:28:00 - [749] Goodbye EVE, you will be missed -------------------------------------------------------------- Seriously, we need some kind of separation between the post and signature. There you go. Now that wasn't so hard
Lt Forge Pilots From Honour Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.09.23 20:56:00 - [750] Edited by: Lt Forge on 23/09/2009 20:56:22 Congratulations CCP, you have officially turned all NPC corps into Caldari/American corps! _____________

Potaine	Posted - 2009.09.23 21:40:00 - [751] My thought on this proposed tax is, What is wrong with you people, what good will it do?. Is it now the policy of CCP to try to Force people into playing the game the way they desire? Quit judging people and move on let them play and enjoy the game even if it isn't the way you want it. This is supposed to be some kind of entertainment, so now your going to introduce a tax to punish people for not doing as you wish. Even though most of have been able to enjoy the refuge of a NPC corp.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.23 21:41:00 - [752] Quote: Saying this step addresses the issue of rmt trading is complete nonsense. 11% more tax address RMT trading ? how ? Because that 11% takes a bite out of their real money, which makes it harder for them to compete with legitamate alternatives among other things. Quote: And what CCP Prism said remains what he said. Wether or not you interpret it to be towards all NPC corp members Your flunk the internet. Figure out what the icon in his quote means, and while your at it look up . You are losing more credibility by the moment. You know what, screw being nice. You've been nicely, but directly, told that NPC corps are intended to be temporary retreats by the people that designed and continue to develop the game. You have found that you can exploit them, not only due to personal preference but also for personal gain (no tax, no chance of war dec). Still being nice, they have removed a portion of the advantages you enjoy to encourage you to get with the program... and you freak out. As they continue to make tweaks to bring EVE more firmly in line with their original design goal, I have a feeling you are going to become a very unhappy camper. Perhaps you should take the hint. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.23 21:49:00 - [753] Originally by: Potaine My thought on this proposed tax is, What is wrong with you people, what good will it do?. Is it now the policy of CCP to try to Force people into playing the game the way they desire? Quit judging people and move on let them play and enjoy the game even if it isn't the way you want it. This is supposed to be some kind of entertainment, so now your going to introduce a tax to punish people for not doing as you wish. Even though most of have been able to enjoy the refuge of a NPC corp. Hello Kitty Online is a game too, designed for entertainment. However, that is not the game that CCP set out to design. Are you really surprised when CCP finally focuses on the fact that their dark and gritty sand box has a corner that is more of a Hello Kitty litter box they decide to start taking steps to fix that? The warm and fuzzy NPC corp no tax, no war structure is a bit out of whack with the whole risk vs reward aspect that EVE is based on. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.23 22:02:00 - [754] Edited by: Julian Lynq on 23/09/2009 22:02:19 Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: Saying this step addresses the issue of rmt trading is complete nonsense. 11% more tax address RMT trading ? how ? Because that 11% takes a bite out of their real money, which makes it harder for them to compete with legitamate alternatives among other things. lol. do you seriously believe this ? wow. in regards to your other comments: No I will not quit eve Weather I loose credibility from you i really couln¦t care less tbh.
Slade Trillgon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.09.23 22:06:00 - [755] Originally by: Potaine Is it now the policy of CCP to try to Force people into playing the game the way they desire? I mean what else are the creators of a game supposed to do Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! =v=
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.23 22:08:00 - [756] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 23/09/2009 22:11:36 Still haven't looked the meaning of I see. (Not you slade). If you do a little research on how RMT works, and apply a little logic, you'll eventually figure it out. I have faith in you. And yes, you have made it painfully obvious that being credible means nothing to you. Well done. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.23 22:18:00 - [757] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 23/09/2009 22:09:35 Still haven't looked the meaning of I see. (Not you slade). If you do a little research, and apply a little logic, you'll eventually figure it out. I have faith in you. And yes, you have made it painfully obvious that being credible means nothing to you. Well done. The rolleyes emote is an emote. It applies the same on the internet as in rl. In case of PrismX post it underlines him being annoyed and shows everyone else him being arogant. And yes, you have made it panfully obvious that you are a mindless Ccp fanboy incapable of understanding any other argumentation than your own. And yes I mean understanding, not agreeing to. You have still not understood that this is not about the 11%, but about how Ccp enganges in gamedesign and how theese actions are then communicated. Your believe that the change would make life harder for rmt traders shows me that it¦s really not worth my time to try and explain to you what is obvious to almost everyone else.
PostWithYourAlt	Posted - 2009.09.23 22:20:00 - [758] Eve Online The Universe Is Yours. Sort of.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.23 22:50:00 - [759] Originally by: Ranger 1 The warm and fuzzy NPC corp no tax, no war structure is a bit out of whack with the whole risk vs reward aspect that EVE is based on. Hardly. Listening to you, and reps from CCP, it seems that there's a whole universe of reward available to folks who join player corps. The NPC corps may have a lower risk, but I don't think you'll find CCP arguing that remaining in an NPC corp is more rewarding. At least I'd hope not. If they believe that then they really have screwed the pooch. The focus on isk is nonsense. The focus on WarDecs is nonsense. The pandering is nonsense. The failure to address the real issue is tragic. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.23 23:05:00 - [760] Originally by: Ranger 1 And yes, you have made it painfully obvious that being credible means nothing to you. Well done. So....does your inability to understand what you read make you more credible? Or are you more credible because you just can't be bothered to read opinions that differ from your own?

Offen Sive Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.09.24 00:24:00 - [761] dang, I'm gonna have to loot a wreck now. just cause I'm curious: What are the benefits of being in a player run corp?
AdmiralJohn Gallente The Unknown Bar and Pub	Posted - 2009.09.24 00:31:00 - [762] Originally by: Offen Sive dang, I'm gonna have to loot a wreck now. just cause I'm curious: What are the benefits of being in a player run corp? Corp chat doesn't sound like, and I quote, Originally by: NPC Corp Chat NERAGHEAGH!!
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.24 00:50:00 - [763] "My Thoughts about NPC Corp Taxation" 1) PVP in EVE is becoming dismal and CCP wants to address it. This can be observed with market prices going into a slump. 2) Major EVE Alliances don't want to fight amongst themselves due to MAD or Mutually Assured Destruction, so they're somewhat in a stalemate stuck within their respective borders despite the fact that they're pretty itching for PVP. 3) With hints from Eve Alliance Moguls (an assumption), CCP enforces taxation to NPC corps to "encourage" them joining Players Corps or Alliances or create their own corporations. That's why the Target for the taxation's the Mission Runners. This, as some thinks will increase the frequency of PVP in EVE, but sadly, the newly formed corporations will just fall prey to established well-equipped corps ending into a one-sided battle. (why don't these PVPers not wage war against established corps? hmmm... one reason, they want a fight they can be assured of a win and not LOSE FACE.) NPC Corps comprises of New Players and Player Alts used as their moneymaker to support their respective PVP Alts. And sadly, New Players don't have the skill nor the resources to face up 2-6 year old corporations. It is my opinion that instead of the taxation, CCP must address the PVP game mechanics, New Players will no doubt would not wage war on established corporations, but 2 Million ISK for a War Declaration is lose change for any established corporations.
wickedpheonix Caldari Guy Fawkes Trust Fund 31ST Reliables Division	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:24:00 - [764] Originally by: Ms Iustitia It is my opinion that instead of the taxation, CCP must address the PVP game mechanics, New Players will no doubt would not wage war on established corporations, but 2 Million ISK for a War Declaration is lose change for any established corporations. Most actual "mechanics" are fine - i.e. buying a ship to risk losing it, guns do damage, etc. That whole formula works. There are two major problems with PVP right now: 1) Titan fleets are the only way to win and b) POS bashing is boring. Dominion seeks to address both of these, and that 11% tax is coming along with Dominion as well to bring some new fighters into the fray. Don't act like CCP isn't doing anything to address this.
AvaAlt	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:30:00 - [765] 26 pages of screaming and ****ing and moaning for a real loss of about 3-4%. Seriously, level 4s in an NPC corp will still be insanely profitable. And yeah, in spite of how many try to deny it, a lot of pirates/pvpers have mission running alts, because PVP costs money. They will still mission on their alts, diehard missionrunning/mining carebears wont really be effected... I dont really understand why this is worthy of such a threadnaught.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:37:00 - [766] Originally by: Ms Iustitia 2) Major EVE Alliances don't want to fight amongst themselves due to MAD or Mutually Assured Destruction, so they're somewhat in a stalemate stuck within their respective borders despite the fact that they're pretty itching for PVP. Actually, the alliances are waiting to see what happens with Dominion. There's not much reason to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women if it turns out you're not gonna be holding their space.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:39:00 - [767] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/09/2009 01:44:10 Quote: The rolleyes emote is an emote. It applies the same on the internet as in rl. In case of PrismX post it underlines him being annoyed and shows everyone else him being arogant. PrismX used to indicate humor, as I pointed out. "I" used for obvious reasons. Try to pay attention. Quote: You have still not understood that this is not about the 11%, but about how Ccp enganges in gamedesign and how theese actions are then communicated. CCP has made the core tenants of their game design crystal clear, as was their communication of it. Quote: Your believe that the change would make life harder for rmt traders shows me that it¦s really not worth my time to try and explain to you what is obvious to almost everyone else. It won't stop it completely of course, but it is yet another step to make things difficult for them. Nor it the main point of the change, merely a benefit. I could relate how many farmers I have killed that concentrate on ratting and missions (while hiding in a non taxed NPC corp) that convert those now taxed bounties directly into sell-able isk... or how cutting into those bounties by any percent makes it more difficult for them to compete with Plex sales, but I feel it would be lost on you. Quote: but I don't think you'll find CCP arguing that remaining in an NPC corp is more rewarding. Actually, NPC corp members running level 4 missions is commonly considered to be one of the easiest and safest ways to make isk (outside of owning R64 moons). If you had a point there, you failed to make it. Quote: So....does your inability to understand what you read make you more credible? Or are you more credible because you just can't be bothered to read opinions that differ from your own? Try to be clear, first you say I don't understand what I read, then you say I don't read. How about we try option 3. I read, I understood, and I'm not buying it. Do you really think that the people that are cheering the change didn't spend any time in NPC corps at one point or another? Why would you possibly think because I am not currently in one that I have not been in one in the past and reaped the same benefits that you currently do? The difference is I dislike swimming in the shallow end of the pool. But if that's your cup of tea, nobody is stopping you from doing so. However the reward part of the risk vs reward equation is being evened out a bit. I doubt you'll find any group of people in the game that haven't been reigned in a bit by a balancing decision. I know I certainly have been. But even if those changes irritated me it didn't take much brain power to figure out why the changes were made. So again, yes I understand what you are saying. It is you that are finding it more convenient to leave the blinders on. NPC corps are intended to be a starting point for new players, or a temporary shelter when in between corps. This has been stated clearly and is not new information. Now that steps are being taken to focus them more in that direction to curtail them being used for other purposes you are simply going to have to make alterations to your play style, or live with them. The premise is more than valid, your objections... less so. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.24 01:49:00 - [768] Originally by: AvaAlt 26 pages of screaming and ****ing and moaning for a real loss of about 3-4%. Seriously, level 4s in an NPC corp will still be insanely profitable. And yeah, in spite of how many try to deny it, a lot of pirates/pvpers have mission running alts, because PVP costs money. They will still mission on their alts, diehard missionrunning/mining carebears wont really be effected... I dont really understand why this is worthy of such a threadnaught. That's 'cause you only clicked on the "last" link and posted. Just like about 60% of the posters in this thread. I'd explain why it's a big deal, again, but I've done that maybe a half-dozen times so far, and it bores me now.
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.24 02:00:00 - [769] Edited by: Ukucia on 24/09/2009 02:02:38 Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: So....does your inability to understand what you read make you more credible? Or are you more credible because you just can't be bothered to read opinions that differ from your own? Try to be clear, first you say I don't understand what I read, then you say I don't read. Lemme help: The word "or" Quote: Do you really think that the people that are cheering the change didn't spend any time in NPC corps at one point or another? Lovely strawman. There are multiple NPC corps, and multiple kinds of players. The "fit" with an NPC corp is going to be different for every player. The fact that you "fit" better with player corps doesn't mean that all players fit better with player corps. Quote: However the reward part of the risk vs reward equation is being evened out a bit. Unfortunately for your argument, that's not why the change is being made. Per CCP's posts, they want us all in player corps, b/c NPC corps are just the garbage bins you fall into when changing corps. To sum up: we're playing the game wrong. What you continue to fail to understand, is one can not have a 'sandbox' game yet have there be a 'wrong' way to play it. If everyone is supposed to be out doing the same things in 0.0, then that means you really want a theme park game. Let's all compare uber Illidan strats and stand around Shatt in our purplez! Quote: But even if those changes irritated me it didn't take much brain power to figure out why the changes were made. Yes, because the changes actually had a connection with the problem they were trying to solve. A perfect example being the nano nerf. Lots of people like you are proposing all sorts of reasons to do this, but that's no the reason CCP gave. They're doing it because we're playing the game wrong, and need to be pushed towards player corps. Quote: So again, yes I understand what you are saying. Considering you don't understand the meaning of a simple conjunction, that's rather doubtful. Quote: NPC corps are intended to be a starting point for new players, or a temporary shelter when in between corps. The thing about sandbox games is that there is no 'intended'. There is only game mechanics. It doesn't matter how the devs intend us to use the mechanics, we have free reign to use them. Quote: The premise is more than valid, your objections... less so. Maybe this will help.
Burning Horizon The Lighthouse Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.24 03:05:00 - [770] Edited by: Burning Horizon on 24/09/2009 03:05:29

Domoso	Posted - 2009.09.24 03:44:00 - [771] Edited by: Domoso on 24/09/2009 03:46:24 Edited by: Domoso on 24/09/2009 03:45:53 Originally by: AvaAlt 26 pages of screaming and ****ing and moaning for a real loss of about 3-4%. Seriously, level 4s in an NPC corp will still be insanely profitable. And yeah, in spite of how many try to deny it, a lot of pirates/pvpers have mission running alts, because PVP costs money. They will still mission on their alts, diehard missionrunning/mining carebears wont really be effected... I dont really understand why this is worthy of such a threadnaught. It's not the money. It's what many see as a poor decision, a poor execution to achieve CCP's stated goal. It's a matter of principle. Personally, I'm the type that would rather burn the gates to Heaven rather than be forced through them. I don't like being made to do anything. I'm an adult, not a child. I don't need to be told what to do. What CCP needs to do is create a number of choices through game features to lure npc corp players into player corps and pvp environments. Those of us that are in npc corps aren't stupid. I can't tell you how many times for the past two months that I've returned to the game and seen people come back into The Scope and say they've been pvping and they're broke....that they're back to recoup losses, to rebuild their wallets, to buy new ships, etc, etc, etc. Then there are the players that return to the npc corp complaining they got kicked out of their corp because their work/school schedules conflicted with their "orders". Or the guys that left their corp because it was crap and now they've got roving death gangs after them. Or, they left because it was too political, or there were too many wardecs and they were always broke. No, player corps don't sound appealing at all. I don't work in the corporate world in real life. I'll be damned if I work in one when I'm trying to have fun, relax, get my mind off things. And sure, there are good corps. I've heard people talk about them. But for every one compliment there's a dozen other people complaining about corps. Basically, I liken a good corp to a unicorn or a leprechaun. You've heard stories about them but, noone ever seems to find them. So, why isn't anyone asking, "Why isn't CCP making that aspect of the game more appealing through positive improvements rather than making an apparently appealing aspect of the game less so?" That right there is the failure of CCP's policy change. It's utter and complete nonsense that they're going to negatively impact npc player corps rather than positively improve the player corp/pvp experience. It wreaks of a bad decision that was made because it was cheap and easy to do so rather than make the effort to create more 'real' choices or provide more 'real' benefits to motivate players in the direction they would like to see us go. But then that would prolly take weeks of coding and test. And I'm sure they've got better things to do, like pull the wings off a fly or something.
Grath Telkin Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.09.24 04:20:00 - [772] Originally by: Domoso I don't like being made to do anything. I'm an adult, not a child. I don't need to be told what to do. I stopped reading here, where you stomped your feet and held your breath. Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.24 04:32:00 - [773] Originally by: wickedpheonix Originally by: Ms Iustitia It is my opinion that instead of the taxation, CCP must address the PVP game mechanics, New Players will no doubt would not wage war on established corporations, but 2 Million ISK for a War Declaration is lose change for any established corporations. Most actual "mechanics" are fine - i.e. buying a ship to risk losing it, guns do damage, etc. That whole formula works. There are two major problems with PVP right now: 1) Titan fleets are the only way to win and b) POS bashing is boring. Dominion seeks to address both of these, and that 11% tax is coming along with Dominion as well to bring some new fighters into the fray. Don't act like CCP isn't doing anything to address this. Except... as has been stated hundreds of times now... they aren't going to join.. Oh.. in case you missed it, that 11% only applies to mission rat bounties, time bunus rewards and mission rewards... so... If you salvage and loot... it comes in at a ringing "" - +/- 3.41%. This does not address the fact, that those who wish to avoid even THAT little distraction can form multiple, related one-man corps, invite all their friends into a public (or private!) chat channel... and away they go... Oh, that war dec thing... yeah, as long as they don't close those corps, and just move their main toons back and forth... yeah, corp hopping isn't an exploit... So, since the people who WOULD join a player corp are already doing so, and this won't encourage players to move to player corps (if they don't wish to...) Its just a silly, stupid annoyance, that really should have been thought about a bit more... And the fact that the developers have come out and said "WE WANT YOU IN PLAYER CORPS..." well, they won't get that result 100% until they close the npc corps... and yeah, all those trillions of people on those planets down there? Yeah, they pay taxes too... So Concord keeps me from dropping boulders on thier heads... which I think would be a hoot! ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.24 04:59:00 - [774] Originally by: Ukucia rable, rable, rable I wrote a detailed post ripping each point you made apart, but really I'm not going to ask people to deal with reading that wall of text. Let me put it simply for you instead. 1: People keep saying those who support this change just don't understand. They are incorrect, we do understand. That is why this people have been asking for a move to be made towards balance for the last several years. 2: NPC crops should not grant members more benefits than player corps in regards to income. A higher level of safety is fine, but that in conjunction with a high level of non-taxable income is not. 3: When an imbalance is found to have developed, when time allows it is fixed. Simple as that. 4: CCP didn't tell you that you were playing wrong. They did say that the current game environment is encouraging a style of game play that does is not in line with their design goals. Thus they balanced things a small amount to alleviate that. I do have to quote this last bit though, as it is such a classic representation of your mindset. Quote: The thing about sandbox games is that there is no 'intended'. There is only game mechanics. It doesn't matter how the devs intend us to use the mechanics, we have free reign to use them. Of course there is an "intended" design in a sand box game. EVE didn't just appear whole from some magical happy place. A great deal of thought went into developing a game world with a particular feel and emphasis. When something doesn't fit quite properly within their design goals they are going to change it. You have no intrinsic "right" to demand that things stay static. You do have "free reign" to play within the framework they have provided, but when that framework is out of whack it is going to be adjusted. A good example of this is the restructuring of SOV mechanics, or the devaluing of R64 moons. In comparison, perhaps you should count your blessings. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.24 05:18:00 - [775] Quote: And the fact that the developers have come out and said "WE WANT YOU IN PLAYER CORPS..." well, they won't get that result 100% until they close the npc corps... I actually agree with you on that score to a degree. However they need to give new players a place to figure out the basic mechanics with a high degree of safety, as they should. If that weren't the case, if EVE were a game that you could master quickly and immediately go out and kick butt, they probably would disallow membership in an NPC corp. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.24 05:19:00 - [776] Edited by: Daemonspirit on 24/09/2009 05:21:43 Originally by: Ranger 1 Of course there is an "intended" design in a sand box game. EVE didn't just appear whole from some magical happy place. A great deal of thought went into developing a game world with a particular feel and emphasis. When something doesn't fit quite properly within their design goals they are going to change it. You have no intrinsic "right" to demand that things stay static. You do have "free reign" to play within the framework they have provided, but when that framework is out of whack it is going to be adjusted. A good example of this is the restructuring of SOV mechanics, or the devaluing of R64 moons. In comparison, perhaps you should count your blessings. Or, maybe, you should go to this thread in the Test Server Feedback forum: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1181766&page=12 TL:DR? 21% of the (active) playerbase, with greater than 2M skillpoints are in NPC Corps. Now, account for: Cyno Alts 0.0/pvp/pirate/ alts (possibly even research alts?) any alts, for any purpose, that pulled the training over 2m sp. What does that do to the %? IMHO - if they have over 2M SP and are still in NPC corps, thats where they want to be. For whatever, unfathomable reason, thats where they want to be. Again (and again and again and again) - this change is not going to create the effect CCP wishes to attain. Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: And the fact that the developers have come out and said "WE WANT YOU IN PLAYER CORPS..." well, they won't get that result 100% until they close the npc corps... I actually agree with you on that score to a degree. However they need to give new players a place to figure out the basic mechanics with a high degree of safety, as they should. If that weren't the case, if EVE were a game that you could master quickly and immediately go out and kick butt, they probably would disallow membership in an NPC corp. Totally agree with you here. Honestly, I don't believe the change is going to effect n00bs all that much. IMHO - this has just been handled hamfistedly by CCP. p.s. - edit beats the 5 min ticker! ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
test2354	Posted - 2009.09.24 05:36:00 - [777] The expansion is going to make major changes to how 0.0 works with an emphasis on making alliances use their space productively rather than rely on the moon mining gravy train. This means that alliances are faced with the choice of dropping claim on systems they are not using or finding a large supply of new serfs to work their land. I guess from this "incentive" ccp consider npc corp residents a prime candidate to fill this role
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.24 05:46:00 - [778] I am kind of with you on this to a degree. However, a lot of the alts you mentioned are probably going to be under 2mil points. Even at that, that is over 63,000 characters we are discussing. I have no doubt that a lot of people are going to stay put, but it does encourage a lot of the new players not to linger longer than necessary, and I think that is rather the main point. As a new player I would definitely keep looking at that lost income and keep thinking "hmmmm, maybe I should seriously consider moving on from here". I would be somewhat more motivated to get over my fear of getting blown up. It has other positive effects as well, such as to a small degree balancing the income of the older NPC corp members, but that is only a happy side effect really. Keep in mind, this was only a first step. I think we are going to see other incentives, both positive and negative, to make it more appealing to move out on your own. We'll always have new players learning the game, and we'll always have experienced players alts lurking to make money without risk (especially during times of war), but the more people out there making the wheels of EVE turn the better. Hopefully the next steps will be more to the current NPC corp denizens liking. Now that was refreshing, an intelligent and polite discussion happened. Who'd a thunk it on these forums. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.24 05:52:00 - [779] Originally by: test2354 The expansion is going to make major changes to how 0.0 works with an emphasis on making alliances use their space productively rather than rely on the moon mining gravy train. This means that alliances are faced with the choice of dropping claim on systems they are not using or finding a large supply of new serfs to work their land. I guess from this "incentive" ccp consider npc corp residents a prime candidate to fill this role If so - All I can say is that 0.0 alliances need to do one HELL of a lot better job recruiting... I can't imagine (i could be wrong) that the average NPC corp player (i'm saying the average) is going to be a good fit for a 0.0 Corp/alliance, if they don't like Hi-sec corps... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Stone Breaker	Posted - 2009.09.24 06:06:00 - [780] No taxation without representation! I will be at the 4-4 station in jita dumping crates of quafe into the vacuum of space. I invite all citizens of noob corps to join me in this effort.

Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.24 06:20:00 - [781] Originally by: Stone Breaker No taxation without representation! I will be at the 4-4 station in jita dumping crates of quafe into the vacuum of space. I invite all citizens of noob corps to join me in this effort. \o/ Yeah, "Jita Quafe Party" anyway: 11% is a kinda strange number, I dount think taking the "average" is such a smart thing to do, becuase having lots of 100% communist corps and even more 0% few people corps out there... a flat 10% or 15% would at least sound better. Anyway: Whining ist not going to help, especially as the Tax only applies to Bounties and Rewards. so if oyu loot and salvage (depending on mission) the amount paid is halved (sometimes more sometimes less). It does not apply for trading, manufactoring selling etc. So what? Mission running in high sec is rather profitable anyway (if you grind and grind and grind) but boring, finding a nice corp to at least chat with (mostly not compaable with Flame Warfare in NPC corps ^^) is quite helpful.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 06:48:00 - [782] Originally by: Ranger 1 PrismX used to indicate humor, as I pointed out. "I" used for obvious reasons. Try to pay attention. Are we now serously discussing the emoticons dev¦s attach to their postings ? Weather or not he wanted to indicate humor doesnt negate what he said. It¦s not like I could call you somethingbadthatwouldgetmeforumbanned and then get away with it because I put a smiley behind it.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2009.09.24 07:03:00 - [783] Originally by: Ranger 1 The warm and fuzzy NPC corp no tax, no war structure is a bit out of whack with the whole risk vs reward aspect that EVE is based on. I think it makes perfect sense that starter corps can't be wardecced, because roughly half of the people who play this would take great pleasure in making sure no new players join the game by ganking them relentlessly. But the corp tax is a long overdue way to urge them to leave after they get set up.
pussnheels	Posted - 2009.09.24 07:14:00 - [784] one question or clarification, does this also include FW npc corporations ?
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 07:23:00 - [785] Originally by: pussnheels one question or clarification, does this also include FW npc corporations ? no
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.24 07:42:00 - [786] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 24/09/2009 07:42:50 Originally by: Professor Tarantula I think it makes perfect sense that starter corps can't be wardecced, because roughly half of the people who play this would take great pleasure in making sure no new players join the game by ganking them relentlessly. But the corp tax is a long overdue way to urge them to leave after they get set up. Very good point about the nature of EvE players Prof T. But I think you, and the vast majority of EvE players who are long past the "frog kissing" stage of EvE, vastly overestimate the value of an NPC Corp tax. The first thing a rookie to EvE learns is "trust nobody except RL friends". If you don't have RL friends in the game, it's a social vacuum. The trouble with an environment in which scamming, backstabbing, and ganking are respected, high-status activities is that it's next to impossible to separate honest players from trash. They sound exactly the same - if anything the scumbags are better at sounding like real people. This is a major weakness of EvE as a MMO gane - it strongly discourages social contact. Some people will work hard to make contact anyway. Some won't. I have no social motivation to join some random group of strangers whom I can't trust. Quite the opposite - I dislike mixing with scumbags both IRL and in games, and I won't be forced to do so in a game. PvP Corps are much better than player Corps in this respect, because there is no opportunity for backstabbing. This 11% tax offers me a choice between bypassing it or leaving EvE. Bypassing it is the most likely of course. It isn't a significant factor in my plans for joining a player Corp.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 08:22:00 - [787] Originally by: Gsptlsnz Very good point about the nature of EvE players Prof T. But I think you, and the vast majority of EvE players who are long past the "frog kissing" stage of EvE, vastly overestimate the value of an NPC Corp tax. The first thing a rookie to EvE learns is "trust nobody except RL friends". If you don't have RL friends in the game, it's a social vacuum. The trouble with an environment in which scamming, backstabbing, and ganking are respected, high-status activities is that it's next to impossible to separate honest players from trash. They sound exactly the same - if anything the scumbags are better at sounding like real people. This is a major weakness of EvE as a MMO gane - it strongly discourages social contact. Some people will work hard to make contact anyway. Some won't. I have no social motivation to join some random group of strangers whom I can't trust. Quite the opposite - I dislike mixing with scumbags both IRL and in games, and I won't be forced to do so in a game. PvP Corps are much better than player Corps in this respect, because there is no opportunity for backstabbing. This 11% tax offers me a choice between bypassing it or leaving EvE. Bypassing it is the most likely of course. It isn't a significant factor in my plans for joining a player Corp. Its not that hard to spot a scam if you ask the correct questions and do your research, same goes for when inviting new people to a corp.
Oddymandius Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.24 08:55:00 - [788] Edited by: Oddymandius on 24/09/2009 08:58:30 The amusing thing about the people complaining about the loss of "social interaction" from people joining 1-player corps is that they're admitting they value that interaction at less than 11% of their monthly isk income. As the shallow human contact they get in an NPC corp is worth less to them than some loose change in an imaginary currency, the logical conclusion is that they're complaining about losing something they admit they don't really care about. Great idea CCP.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.09.24 08:59:00 - [789] Originally by: Oddymandius The amusing thing about the people complaining about the loss of "social interaction" from people joining 1-player corps is that they're admitting they value that interaction at less than 11% of their monthly isk income. The shallow human contact they get in an NPC corp is worth less to them than some loose change in an imaginary currency. Great idea CCP. CCP give us a wonderful tool for compensate it : Channel creation. SAK NPC Corp managed to organize some small mining operations and tournaments. It is certainly not hard to "encourage" people to use one channel while they are in a 1-Man Corp. _______ Local is fine, period. CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ?
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 09:01:00 - [790] Originally by: Oddymandius Edited by: Oddymandius on 24/09/2009 08:56:40 The amusing thing about the people complaining about the loss of "social interaction" from people joining 1-player corps is that they're admitting they value that interaction at less than 11% of their monthly isk income. The shallow human contact they get in an NPC corp is worth less to them than some loose change in an imaginary currency - they're complaining about having something taken away that they also admit they don't really care about. Great idea CCP. What is amusing about people outlining that Ccp¦s decision will have the exact opposite effect of what Ccp hopes to accomplish with it? And what makes it soo difficult to understand that a change that does in essence do the exact opposite of what it is supposed to do is a bad one ?

Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.24 09:26:00 - [791] @Baltec I've never been scammed in EvE. I listened while I was in rookie help, and read the forums, and have followed the main rule of EvE: trust nobody. The issue is the very large investment in time to really get a feel for the members of a Corp, since the odds of finding a Corp with only honest players is so low. Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand. Time (per Corp) to get a feel for the members of the Corp: a week elapsed, a few hours effective time (active chatting). An 11% tax on missions hardly influences the tradeoff.
Doddy The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.24 09:31:00 - [792] Originally by: Gsptlsnz Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand. TYpical view tbh, totally wrong ofc. Hundreds of peopletrust each other regularly in eve and very rarely do they actually get screwed over. 90% of eve playersare fairly freindly individuals with no hidden agenda whatsoever. Another 5% won't screw you over because you aren't worth it unless you are either filthy rich or politically powerful. The other 5% are greifers and scammers, the majority of whom are in npc corps. The main rule of eve is not "trust nobody", it is "make freinds quickly".
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 09:32:00 - [793] Originally by: Gsptlsnz @Baltec I've never been scammed in EvE. I listened while I was in rookie help, and read the forums, and have followed the main rule of EvE: trust nobody. The issue is the very large investment in time to really get a feel for the members of a Corp, since the odds of finding a Corp with only honest players is so low. Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand. Time (per Corp) to get a feel for the members of the Corp: a week elapsed, a few hours effective time (active chatting). An 11% tax on missions hardly influences the tradeoff. I find it the other way. I have never been in a bad corp that you seem to fear and even as alliences go, I have never been shafted by one. I refuse to belive I am the luckest man alive so really, your overreacting.
Joe Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.09.24 09:43:00 - [794] Its pretty simple. They're going to increase the registration fee for corp and Alliance creation
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 11:03:00 - [795] Originally by: Joe Its pretty simple. They're going to increase the registration fee for corp and Alliance creation Why would they increase the registration fee of Alliance creation ??
Kara Mitsui The New Era Huzzah Federation	Posted - 2009.09.24 11:35:00 - [796] This is great, it's looong overdue. But it's nowhere near enough. Now, I'm not one of these misanthropic jerks who are baying for carebear tears, in fact for the last 6 months I've been carebearing myself because RL has stopped me participating in corp life. This change isn't to make it easier for pirates to wardec people. it's nothing to do with punishing people for running missions. The only reason for this is that it's good for the game to get more and more people into player-run corps. More player corps = more competition for resources = more fights, it's as simple as that. I've always thought NPC corps should be for noobs and people who are between player corps, not permanent homes. So while this tax is a good start, it needs to go a LOT further. Ultimately, NPC corp tax should start at 10% and increase by 5% every month you are in the corp, capped at 75%. 11% just isn't a very big deal, especially if you are looting and salvaging as well. In fact, for the chat and other benefits you get it's pretty cheap. Besides, I've never been in a player corp with less than 10% tax, and the better corps have 25% or higher - just to discourage carebearing. So this tax isn't a real incentive to leave. But over time they will ramp it up, and if they implemented it as a sliding scale as I mention above, there will come a point where people will just have to leave the safety of the nest. As for the people in here and other threads laughing about carebear tears, well you're just embarassing yourselves. There are a few carebears that are unhappy about this, but the level of whining is less than 10% of the whining when pvp stuff is nerfed. The carrier nef proposals? The speed nerfs? Suiciding nerfs? The whining on those occasions was epic and the tears could fill an ocean. I would go so far as to say that the general response from PVE people to this news has been very mature and sensible, and the rest of you could try and emulate this the next time they nerf something you do.
Davion Nydor	Posted - 2009.09.24 11:47:00 - [797] As someone who has spent significant time in player corps both empire and 0.0 in the past but has no wish ever to do so again this change is going to have little if any impact on me. It certainly will not get me into a player corp. Like most veteran players I already have more than 1 account and at least 4 spare slots for ceo alts. 2 new 1 character corps where created yesterday by a pair of these(and there will be two more when I next log this second account on). Gives me 4 corps for my main to live in tax free. Should be enough to avoid wardeccers, griefers and other assorted pests. If not I can easily create a another 2. If someone wants to wardec 6 corps to chase my main around good luck to them - only then will he go back to the npc corp and take the 3% hit for as long as the enemy wants to run 6 wardecs on empty corps. Net impact of change which has cost ccp goodwill amongst a significant chunk of their player base - zero. Not a smart plan.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.24 11:52:00 - [798] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/09/2009 01:48:28 Quote: The rolleyes emote is an emote. It applies the same on the internet as in rl. In case of PrismX post it underlines him being annoyed and shows everyone else him being arogant. PrismX used to indicate humor, as I pointed out. "I" used for obvious reasons. Try to pay attention. Prism X missed the subtle but important difference between "I am laughing at you" and "I am laughing with you". His post was "I am laughing at you". Not, humour but derision.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.24 12:07:00 - [799] Originally by: Kara Mitsui The only reason for this is that it's good for the game to get more and more people into player-run corps. More player corps = more competition for resources = more fights, it's as simple as that. You're missing one crucial point.... The people this affects are mission runners. Missions are an UNLIMITED resource. An unlimited resource doesn't foster competition, thus no fighting either. All those new 1-man corp will NOT be wardec'ing each other..... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Nihiliax	Posted - 2009.09.24 12:28:00 - [800] Other than the mission-runners themselves this proposed change is really not going to affect anyone. Sure the high-sec war-deccing gank merchants think they are gonna get a lot of new targets to shoot at but as has been demonstrated it isn't really going to pan out like that. They make statements that nobody should be 100% safe in this game and then log in to pop another unarmed shuttle in their gank-fit BS, making sure all the time to stay in high-sec where CONCORD can protect them from the real pvpers. What these people are doing is the equivalent of punching out all the 5 year olds in their local Primary School so they can pretend they are the heavyweight champion of the world, and all for what? So they can point proudly at their lickle e-todger and smile at how big it looks, all standy-uppy in their Batman Y-fronts. Awesome guys, just awesome.

Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.24 12:30:00 - [801] Originally by: Kara Mitsui Now, I'm not one of these misanthropic jerks who are baying for carebear tears, in fact for the last 6 months I've been carebearing myself because RL has stopped me participating in corp life. I'm in a similar situation, and mine's likely to continue for years. I guess that's why your sliding scale idea doesn't appeal in the least. It's not money or safety that keeps me out of a player corp, it's just convienience. There are already huge parts of this game I won't ever get to be a part of, but that's the RL/EVE balance I've got and that's the way it works. A sliding scale tax like you propose will encourage me to leave an NPC corp, but it won't encourage me to seek out a situation that expects more time or where other people will be counting on me for things I cannot provide. I'll go to a corp of my own or I'll come to the unwelcome conclusion that's it EVE's potential I like more than the reality (and yes I'll take my fifty billion accounts, and no you can't have my stuff. ). I'll say it again: Making the alternative suck more is the wrong way to encourage a particular behavior unless you've got a truly captive audience. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 13:57:00 - [802] 27 pages over play internet money? WTF?
Captain Booyah Dawn Vigil	Posted - 2009.09.24 14:17:00 - [803] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Sizzle Anburn Stick (punishment) - "If you don't group we're going to do something to penalize you." NPC corp tax in this case. The problem with that is that they're just perceptions. Carrot: if you join a PC corp, you can get the benefit of lower taxes. It is seen as a stick because you think of 0% taxes as the norm. For new players, it will be a carrot because that norm no longer exists. Corporate Management, 11m 15s. This skill increases your income earned from mission rewards and NPC pirate bounties by 11%. Player corporations with less than 11% taxation are still going to have to explain to the potential recruit why they should sacrifice ISK to the corp. After all, real corporations pay people to work for them. To the thread as a whole: Bickering about where the NPC corp tax "should" be is almost pointless as anyone who doesn't see mission running as an end in itself will tax evade to avoid wasted effort.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.24 14:21:00 - [804] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/09/2009 01:48:28 Quote: The rolleyes emote is an emote. It applies the same on the internet as in rl. In case of PrismX post it underlines him being annoyed and shows everyone else him being arogant. PrismX used to indicate humor, as I pointed out. "I" used for obvious reasons. Try to pay attention. Prism X missed the subtle but important difference between "I am laughing at you" and "I am laughing with you". His post was "I am laughing at you". Not, humour but derision. My, you are a sensitive lad. Got all that from an obviously non-practical statement and a smiley face did you? ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.24 15:23:00 - [805] Edited by: Daemonspirit on 24/09/2009 15:23:34 Eve needs an online data base of Corps currently recruiting. Bumpable weekly, no activity in 10 days automatically cancels the post. And it needs to be part of the tutorial. vOv thats my idea. Is my idea any more effective at making someone move who doesn't want to? edit: Sorry - "In game" database... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 15:56:00 - [806] Originally by: Daemonspirit Edited by: Daemonspirit on 24/09/2009 15:23:34 Eve needs an online data base of Corps currently recruiting. Bumpable weekly, no activity in 10 days automatically cancels the post. And it needs to be part of the tutorial. vOv thats my idea. Is my idea any more effective at making someone move who doesn't want to? edit: Sorry - "In game" database... This yes. And it needs an UI that makes it easy to compare them with each other based on different attributes like Size, TimeZone, Type of Activity, VoiceComms etc. For example somone is looking for a small eu based pirate corporation based in wormhole space, he could just go and tick checkboxes in the ui and get the desired results. Additionally a few other ideas to boost player corporations: - Rework the corporation Logo-"Designer". It shows it¦s age and the corp logo¦s do too. - If a corpmate tries to shoot another corpmate, make it consentual through a yes/no-dialog. - Display their logo¦s /name¦s on the billboards - Increase wardeccing costs (Make wardecs meaningfull) - Based on some randomness and the decisions a new player made in the tutorials (For example which training courses he made) suggest player corporations for him to join that fit his style of play. - Allow CEO¦s to record a small audio snipped (through eve voice code?) about their corporation and attach it to their ingame info.
Roger Midnight Red Federation	Posted - 2009.09.24 16:14:00 - [807] 11% isn't going to influence anyone to leave the NPC corps (except perhaps to do the 1 man corp trick). The worst case scenario of a bad corp choice for a carebear is just too expensive. (e.g. Joining a corp and having a rogue member pop your Hulk or CNR while Concord flies by eating donuts). So basically, all that will happen is people in NPC corps will have less isk to spend. How will that attract new subscribers or retain current subscribers?
Cyrus Doul RDK Research Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.24 16:33:00 - [808] Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 24/09/2009 16:34:19 take any account in NPC corp for over 90 days total, and by total i mean forever. no going 90 days then 2 seconds in alt corp, ninety days. drop into pirate corp and strip ability to be in non pirate npc corp. RTM bots solved either by pirate kill or funtime wardec. if they aren't rtm just find a corp that likes the mission runners ant they can go there. or make their own and try to avoid dec.
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.24 16:36:00 - [809] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 24/09/2009 16:37:11 Originally by: Doddy Originally by: Gsptlsnz Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand. TYpical view tbh, totally wrong ofc. Hundreds of peopletrust each other regularly in eve and very rarely do they actually get screwed over. 90% of eve playersare fairly freindly individuals with no hidden agenda whatsoever. Another 5% won't screw you over because you aren't worth it unless you are either filthy rich or politically powerful. The other 5% are greifers and scammers, the majority of whom are in npc corps. The main rule of eve is not "trust nobody", it is "make freinds quickly". My rookie experience does not match this information. Not even close. You may be correct all the same. But the vast majority of more experienced players I've met have been lowlifes, so I'm gong with "trust no-one". I'm astonished this isn't seen as a problem TBH. The game is fine, but the players you actually "meet" are relentlessly hostile to rookies. Who are least able to avoid trouble, or defend against it. All the childish nonsense in "local" and forums (like the inane meme about drinking player tears) really give it away. This is the face of EvE to new players who aren't "connected" (able to leverage RL friends or their social skills to get them established painlessly). It really doesn't matter if somewhere out there in the "leet" parts of EvE there are real gamers - the ones I "meet" are mostly trash.
DarkFollower Amarr The Edge Foundation Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.09.24 16:44:00 - [810] Are you guys kidding me , are people actually upset of 100k isk ? i don't really get what's the big fuss about this , are you guys that greedy that you look at the few millions you lose to tax when you are making hundreds of millions in a few hours Cap rechargers on PvP ships Suxxor monkey ballzorz!!

Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 16:48:00 - [811] Originally by: DarkFollower Are you guys kidding me , are people actually upset of 100k isk ? i don't really get what's the big fuss about this , are you guys that greedy that you look at the few millions you lose to tax when you are making hundreds of millions in a few hours Hi, Thanks for the bump. You can find multiple answers to your Question inbetween pages 1 and 26 of this thread.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 16:57:00 - [812] Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 24/09/2009 16:37:11 Originally by: Doddy Originally by: Gsptlsnz Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand. TYpical view tbh, totally wrong ofc. Hundreds of peopletrust each other regularly in eve and very rarely do they actually get screwed over. 90% of eve playersare fairly freindly individuals with no hidden agenda whatsoever. Another 5% won't screw you over because you aren't worth it unless you are either filthy rich or politically powerful. The other 5% are greifers and scammers, the majority of whom are in npc corps. The main rule of eve is not "trust nobody", it is "make freinds quickly". My rookie experience does not match this information. Not even close. You may be correct all the same. But the vast majority of more experienced players I've met have been lowlifes, so I'm gong with "trust no-one". I'm astonished this isn't seen as a problem TBH. The game is fine, but the players you actually "meet" are relentlessly hostile to rookies. Who are least able to avoid trouble, or defend against it. All the childish nonsense in "local" and forums (like the inane meme about drinking player tears) really give it away. This is the face of EvE to new players who aren't "connected" (able to leverage RL friends or their social skills to get them established painlessly). It really doesn't matter if somewhere out there in the "leet" parts of EvE there are real gamers - the ones I "meet" are mostly trash. Strange, my corp took on a few nubs barely out of the tutorial so that we had pilots who we could mould into pvp right away and not worry about them being rich but clueless. If we treated every new player like dirt then we would never expand.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:06:00 - [813] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 24/09/2009 16:37:11 Originally by: Doddy Originally by: Gsptlsnz Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand. TYpical view tbh, totally wrong ofc. Hundreds of peopletrust each other regularly in eve and very rarely do they actually get screwed over. 90% of eve playersare fairly freindly individuals with no hidden agenda whatsoever. Another 5% won't screw you over because you aren't worth it unless you are either filthy rich or politically powerful. The other 5% are greifers and scammers, the majority of whom are in npc corps. The main rule of eve is not "trust nobody", it is "make freinds quickly". My rookie experience does not match this information. Not even close. You may be correct all the same. But the vast majority of more experienced players I've met have been lowlifes, so I'm gong with "trust no-one". I'm astonished this isn't seen as a problem TBH. The game is fine, but the players you actually "meet" are relentlessly hostile to rookies. Who are least able to avoid trouble, or defend against it. All the childish nonsense in "local" and forums (like the inane meme about drinking player tears) really give it away. This is the face of EvE to new players who aren't "connected" (able to leverage RL friends or their social skills to get them established painlessly). It really doesn't matter if somewhere out there in the "leet" parts of EvE there are real gamers - the ones I "meet" are mostly trash. Strange, my corp took on a few nubs barely out of the tutorial so that we had pilots who we could mould into pvp right away and not worry about them being rich but clueless. If we treated every new player like dirt then we would never expand. What kind of argumentation is that ? My corp is sending cookies to everyone and we do karaoke singing over ventrillo every night.
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:07:00 - [814] @baltec You need to look at the the other way round: what proportion of rookies find their way to a decent Corp like yours?
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:12:00 - [815] Originally by: Cyrus Doul Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 24/09/2009 16:34:19 take any account in NPC corp for over 90 days total, and by total i mean forever. no going 90 days then 2 seconds in alt corp, ninety days. drop into pirate corp and strip ability to be in non pirate npc corp. RTM bots solved either by pirate kill or funtime wardec. if they aren't rtm just find a corp that likes the mission runners ant they can go there. or make their own and try to avoid dec. Errm, no. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:13:00 - [816] Originally by: Gsptlsnz @baltec You need to look at the the other way round: what proportion of rookies find their way to a decent Corp like yours? I would say most because who is going to stay in a bad corp...It bad business.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:20:00 - [817] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/09/2009 17:21:18 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Gsptlsnz @baltec You need to look at the the other way round: what proportion of rookies find their way to a decent Corp like yours? I would say most because who is going to stay in a bad corp...It bad business. Really now, how hard is it to go to EVE University or Agony and click join? There are several well known and easy to find corps that have an open door policy to new or inexperienced players. They provide a number of advantages, but I'm not going to pimp them any further. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:23:00 - [818] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Gsptlsnz @baltec You need to look at the the other way round: what proportion of rookies find their way to a decent Corp like yours? I would say most because who is going to stay in a bad corp...It bad business. ....or they quit..... You may of.c. say that we're better off without them, that they're not suited for EVE, that they should GBTWOW... but that's lost money from the upkeep and expansion of the game we all like! EVE has and SHOULD have a fair amount of griefing and underhanded stuff, but it should NEVER force newbies out of the game before they actually has a chance to get reasonably settled! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
AvaAlt	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:24:00 - [819] PvP costs isk. So pvpers run missions, many of them on alts in NPC corps, to fund pvp. I hate mission running, but if i wanna pew, i need to pay. Pretty straightforward. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Its not a huge real loss, to be basically immune to danger while you mission in highsec. I dont see an issue here. I run missions on a toon not in an npc corp, so i am totally unaffected. But thats not because i dont want to, its simply because i cannot afford 2 accounts. If i could, i would happily pay the tax to mission in peace and not have to worry about the sec status of my main. Pirates and pvpers are supposed to just "accept" low sec status and the problems that accompany it as a consequence of their playstyle. An 11% tax for total wardec immunity is a consequence for those that choose that playstyle. To those that have brought it up, the 0.0 snorefest is unrelated to the number of people missioning in NPC corps in highsec, and no amount of tax will change that. Apples and oranges, two totally different issues.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:30:00 - [820] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Gsptlsnz @baltec You need to look at the the other way round: what proportion of rookies find their way to a decent Corp like yours? I would say most because who is going to stay in a bad corp...It bad business. ....or they quit..... You may of.c. say that we're better off without them, that they're not suited for EVE, that they should GBTWOW... but that's lost money from the upkeep and expansion of the game we all like! EVE has and SHOULD have a fair amount of griefing and underhanded stuff, but it should NEVER force newbies out of the game before they actually has a chance to get reasonably settled! If they quit over a bad corp then they would have quit over something else far worse.

Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:35:00 - [821] 28 pages about a 11% tax on internet play money. Really people, its fake money, if this was a 11% tax on real money, then I can see it, but 11% on play money? O.K, Now I know, its very hard for some of you to do this, but just let me get it out. If after this tax comes in, a person joins, GUESS WHAT??????!!!!! THEY WONT know about the way it was before taxes!! WOW, what a concept!!!! So it will be the same. OH NOES!!!!!! eleven!!!!!!!!!11111111 MY INTERNET PLAY MONIES!!!!!!! I remember when I used to have nothing better to woory about then the next buff/nerf or change back in school when I was playing EQ. ITS A FRICKING GAME!!!
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:38:00 - [822] Originally by: Bjron 28 pages about a 11% tax on internet play money. Really people, its fake money, if this was a 11% tax on real money, then I can see it, but 11% on play money? O.K, Now I know, its very hard for some of you to do this, but just let me get it out. If after this tax comes in, a person joins, GUESS WHAT??????!!!!! THEY WONT know about the way it was before taxes!! WOW, what a concept!!!! So it will be the same. OH NOES!!!!!! eleven!!!!!!!!!11111111 MY INTERNET PLAY MONIES!!!!!!! I remember when I used to have nothing better to woory about then the next buff/nerf or change back in school when I was playing EQ. ITS A FRICKING GAME!!! Originally by: Julian Lynq Hi, Thanks for the bump. You can find multiple answers to your Question inbetween pages 1 and 26 of this thread.
Nihiliax	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:46:00 - [823] Originally by: Bjron 28 pages about a 11% tax on internet play money. Really people, its fake money, if this was a 11% tax on real money, then I can see it, but 11% on play money? O.K, Now I know, its very hard for some of you to do this, but just let me get it out. If after this tax comes in, a person joins, GUESS WHAT??????!!!!! THEY WONT know about the way it was before taxes!! WOW, what a concept!!!! So it will be the same. OH NOES!!!!!! eleven!!!!!!!!!11111111 MY INTERNET PLAY MONIES!!!!!!! I remember when I used to have nothing better to woory about then the next buff/nerf or change back in school when I was playing EQ. ITS A FRICKING GAME!!! OK, you tried to make this point on page 27 but nobody paid it any attention so here you are trying to get attention with the same point a page later. All right Bjron, I'll bite and give you the attention you crave. I'll explain to you what it is that you seem incapable of comprehending. I'll also use small words so you are sure to understand. Ready? It is not about internet moneys it is about time. I have to grind the occasional level 4 mission (which I don't enjoy) to make ISK to pay for the pew pew against other players (that I do enjoy). As I am a grown up and have limited game time I would rather spend more of my game time doing what I do enjoy and not have to spend 11% extra time doing something I don't enjoy. Got that? Good. Now run along.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:46:00 - [824] sorry, I got to page 14 before I had a over load of QQ/whine. * flys in with a fleet of 10 freighter's * We is gonna need more room for all dem tears masta!
bitters much Nekkid Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:46:00 - [825] The funny thing is that probably 50% of the 11% game money tax whiners here havent paid any RL tax from loan yet. I wonder if they will rage the same if the 1st commission comes in and 30-40% will get ripped off by gov.
Katarina Shadows	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:51:00 - [826] Originally by: Bjron sorry, I got to page 14 before I had a over load of QQ/whine. * flys in with a fleet of 10 freighter's * We is gonna need more room for all dem tears masta! You've got brown on you.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:55:00 - [827] Originally by: bitters much The funny thing is that probably 50% of the 11% game money tax whiners here havent paid any RL tax from loan yet. I wonder if they will rage the same if the 1st commission comes in and 30-40% will get ripped off by gov. You know the funny thing is that in RL my Corp pays Me. Not the other way around.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.24 17:59:00 - [828] Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 24/09/2009 16:37:11 Originally by: Doddy Originally by: Gsptlsnz Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand. TYpical view tbh, totally wrong ofc. Hundreds of peopletrust each other regularly in eve and very rarely do they actually get screwed over. 90% of eve playersare fairly freindly individuals with no hidden agenda whatsoever. Another 5% won't screw you over because you aren't worth it unless you are either filthy rich or politically powerful. The other 5% are greifers and scammers, the majority of whom are in npc corps. The main rule of eve is not "trust nobody", it is "make freinds quickly". My rookie experience does not match this information. Not even close. You may be correct all the same. But the vast majority of more experienced players I've met have been lowlifes, so I'm gong with "trust no-one". I'm astonished this isn't seen as a problem TBH. The game is fine, but the players you actually "meet" are relentlessly hostile to rookies. Who are least able to avoid trouble, or defend against it. All the childish nonsense in "local" and forums (like the inane meme about drinking player tears) really give it away. This is the face of EvE to new players who aren't "connected" (able to leverage RL friends or their social skills to get them established painlessly). It really doesn't matter if somewhere out there in the "leet" parts of EvE there are real gamers - the ones I "meet" are mostly trash. I'm sorry your rookie experience was bad. And I'm not being facetious. I might be able to help you: http://www.eve-ivy.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=66&sid=7c7b96cd58f2885e46e5c400d0586c6e Thats the Recruitment forum of Eve University. While I admit that many pirates do travel through there, I (on my main...) can attest that they are helpful to a degree that I've never seen in any other game (been gaming since online/text based/RPG's - otherwise known as "MUDS"). Think the ingame (open/public) chat channel is "University Public". When perusing the "Work Fair" Forum, look for neat, well organized posts. Check how often the thread gets bumped. See what other players are saying about the Corp. If there is just one entry (the original one) and nothing else... well, you get the idea. Not everyone is out to gank/scam/ripyouoff. Lets put it this way, one of the forum sigs from the Uni is: "Eve is about groups of bastards, fighting other groups of bastards to see who can be the biggest bastard. And we're running a charity!" PvP corps/0.0 corps/Mining/Industrialists/Traders/Mission Runnres/Inventors all recruit from the Uni. But it doesn't really matter... We're all Alts of Kodell... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:00:00 - [829] OK, you tried to make this point on page 27 but nobody paid it any attention so here you are trying to get attention with the same point a page later. All right Bjron, I'll bite and give you the attention you crave. I'll explain to you what it is that you seem incapable of comprehending. I'll also use small words so you are sure to understand. Ready? It is not about internet moneys it is about time. I have to grind the occasional level 4 mission (which I don't enjoy) to make ISK to pay for the pew pew against other players (that I do enjoy). As I am a grown up and have limited game time I would rather spend more of my game time doing what I do enjoy and not have to spend 11% extra time doing something I don't enjoy. Got that? Good. Now run along. * facepalm * I work 8am-5om mon-fri and 3pm-1am on saturday, whats your point? so, some how, a 11% tax because you are in a NPC corp, is going to make your Eve life sooooo, dull because you have to grind 11% more? You only have to grind 11% more IF, 100% of your income is the mission reward and bounty, IF you salvage and loot then its a lot less than the 11%, I think some one said it was more like 3-5%? So, you are going to cry about at the most having to grind 11% more? and in return you are war dec free? I can not understand this, you can make 20-25M a hour easy, lets say you make 20M in a hour all from rewards and bountys, now we take that 11% out 20-11%=17M earned? ok, you lost next to nothing in the big picture, 3M BFD. Pick up some salvage/loot? you know what, I am 23, I have limited game time, I dont care if they set the NPC corp taxes to 50% Oh noes, my play internet moneys, ummm buy a few GTC's and sell them?
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:05:00 - [830] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: bitters much The funny thing is that probably 50% of the 11% game money tax whiners here havent paid any RL tax from loan yet. I wonder if they will rage the same if the 1st commission comes in and 30-40% will get ripped off by gov. You know the funny thing is that in RL my Corp pays Me. Not the other way around. this is a game, you choose to play it, dont like it? leave? I get paid, for working at work, I pay CCP to play in there sand box, hmmm thats not very hard to understand. Hmm, I get paid to do work, and I pay CCP to keep the servers running. The funny thing is, that you people are so upset about game money. I wish I had nothing better to worry about than game money, so what, you might have to grind 11% more? WTF is that even 1 level 4 mission? no one is forcing you to make your money mission running, and no one is forcing you to stay in the NPC corp.

Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:07:00 - [831] Originally by: Bjron Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: bitters much The funny thing is that probably 50% of the 11% game money tax whiners here havent paid any RL tax from loan yet. I wonder if they will rage the same if the 1st commission comes in and 30-40% will get ripped off by gov. You know the funny thing is that in RL my Corp pays Me. Not the other way around. this is a game, you choose to play it, dont like it? leave? I get paid, for working at work, I pay CCP to play in there sand box, hmmm thats not very hard to understand. Hmm, I get paid to do work, and I pay CCP to keep the servers running. The funny thing is, that you people are so upset about game money. I wish I had nothing better to worry about than game money, so what, you might have to grind 11% more? WTF is that even 1 level 4 mission? no one is forcing you to make your money mission running, and no one is forcing you to stay in the NPC corp. But, tbqh - Some of us were enjoying the discussion! So its not important to you? Door ------------> \|out\| Thanks for playing! ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
bitters much Nekkid Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:09:00 - [832] Edited by: bitters much on 24/09/2009 18:14:51 Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: bitters much The funny thing is that probably 50% of the 11% game money tax whiners here havent paid any RL tax from loan yet. I wonder if they will rage the same if the 1st commission comes in and 30-40% will get ripped off by gov. You know the funny thing is that in RL my Corp pays Me. Not the other way around. Sorry but you are wrong, you get paid by the Agent you milk all day long in Motsu, the NPC corp you are in is like your RL Gov., it takes his share for the "Your not deccable" service they provide you. edit: have to log to take a shower in all the tears I harvested tax free in this thread
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:10:00 - [833] Originally by: Bjron this is a game Originally by: bitters much The funny thing is that probably 50% of the 11% game money tax whiners here havent paid any RL tax from loan yet. I wonder if they will rage the same if the 1st commission comes in and 30-40% will get ripped off by gov. We have a winner ! pling. pling pling ! You guys should talk more.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:14:00 - [834] Originally by: bitters much The funny thing is that probably 50% of the 11% game money tax whiners here havent paid any RL tax from loan yet. I wonder if they will rage the same if the 1st commission comes in and 30-40% will get ripped off by gov. if you are talking about RL loans, I got one for stupidly high rate, yes thats right I am paying massive rate on a loan. Cause I needed the money really, really bad. Take out 2,000, pay back 4,000.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:18:00 - [835] Originally by: Daemonspirit http://www.eve-ivy.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=66&sid=7c7b96cd58f2885e46e5c400d0586c6e Ok, just for **** -N- Giggles, I went through some of the Corps on the first page, the most recent posts: Imperial Navy is recruiting - join the 1st Praetorian Guard (FW - Corp) http://www.eve-ivy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20620 Qcats - Gallente FW PVP corp now recruiting http://www.eve-ivy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16776 (These guys seem to have a sense of humor too...) Reaper Industries - PVP http://www.eve-ivy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17713 >># No Tax or corporate dues EVER. << MBK Brigade ("White hat PvP'rs) http://www.eve-ivy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21147 Nutz N Boltz is recruiting! Become A NUT today!! http://www.eve-ivy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8793 "Nutz N Boltz is a relatively laid back corp of PVP'ers, Mission runners, Industrialists, and Miners. We lean a bit more toward the industry and mining aspect of Eve but welcome everyone heck we even have a reformed pirate among us!" >>>5% tax... >>>4 pages of bumps since Jan. 09. [VETOA] - Veto Academy Recruitment http://www.eve-ivy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20885 WWW.VETO-CORP.COM http://www.eve-ivy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20885 "A couple of you may have heard of us, chances are that the majority of you haven't. So firstly, introductions all around. I'm known to most as Verone, and I run a pirate and mercenary corporation by the name of Veto Corp. I lurk here quite a bit, watching Eve-Uni and how the people who come here develop from the ground up. Ivy League never fails to impress and astonish me with their organisation and how well they prepare and support their students during the start of their time in Eve. " This is just a few of the corps there, some better, some worse... Heard of Sniggwaffe? Sniggwaffe Pirate School http://www.eve-ivy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18014 There are TONNES of groups out there who are NOT going to scam, grief or touch you in bad places (in game). There is a TONNE of information out there about them... Just look. and just for the record? I think the tax is stuipd, silly, annoying and won't accomplish CCP's stated goal. But thats just me... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:27:00 - [836] I want to go on record as say the following. If I had the kinda power that CCP does to cause this many pages of QQ, and whines and some times good ideas and covos. The world would already be flooded by now. Imange what I could do with WoW?
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:27:00 - [837] Little cross post from the other thread, just to make sure it catches eris eyes, also maybe bringing the topic back to it¦s main question. Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia We will be keeping a close watch to what happens when this change hits tq Hi. How about releasing a public statistic. One before the change hits TQ, and one after the change. Data would include: Number of players, Number of Players in Player-Corps (Corps > 5 Members), Number of Players in NPC Corps, Number of Players in Player-Corps < 5 Members. I would be very interested in theese and I believe quite a few other people from this and the two other threads aswell.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:28:00 - [838] Originally by: Bjron I want to go on record as say the following. If I had the kinda power that CCP does to cause this many pages of QQ, and whines and some times good ideas and covos. The world would already be flooded by now. Imange what I could do with WoW? You, are a very, very, evil person! Wanna join my Corp?! ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:38:00 - [839] Originally by: Daemonspirit Originally by: Bjron I want to go on record as say the following. If I had the kinda power that CCP does to cause this many pages of QQ, and whines and some times good ideas and covos. The world would already be flooded by now. Imange what I could do with WoW? You, are a very, very, evil person! Wanna join my Corp?! No thank you, but thanks for the offer.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:45:00 - [840] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/09/2009 01:48:28 Quote: The rolleyes emote is an emote. It applies the same on the internet as in rl. In case of PrismX post it underlines him being annoyed and shows everyone else him being arogant. PrismX used to indicate humor, as I pointed out. "I" used for obvious reasons. Try to pay attention. Prism X missed the subtle but important difference between "I am laughing at you" and "I am laughing with you". His post was "I am laughing at you". Not, humour but derision. My, you are a sensitive lad. Got all that from an obviously non-practical statement and a smiley face did you? An the tone of the blog (even if the author wasn't the same person), yes. The attitude showed by CCP personnel gate on my nerves even if the change don't touch me in any way as I have been in player corp for 3 years. The "this is the only approved behavior" attitude always grate on my nerves. Approving only one way to play and belittling all the others is a wrong attitude in a game that call to be a sandbox.

Christina Bamar Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:49:00 - [841] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/09/2009 17:21:18 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Gsptlsnz @baltec You need to look at the the other way round: what proportion of rookies find their way to a decent Corp like yours? I would say most because who is going to stay in a bad corp...It bad business. Really now, how hard is it to go to EVE University or Agony and click join? There are several well known and easy to find corps that have an open door policy to new or inexperienced players. They provide a number of advantages, but I'm not going to pimp them any further. To clarify, Agony has an open door policy when it comes to the students we take in our classes. When it comes to recruitment into Agony the corp we have a selective recruitment process. CEO, Agony Unleashed
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.24 18:57:00 - [842] Quote: You know the funny thing is that in RL my Corp pays Me. Not the other way around. Sorry, but I have to point out two things. The point that was made about your earning your money from agents (or whatever), is correct. Your NPC corp is your Government (essentially the guardian of your civil liberties). That aside though, think about where that money comes from that your Corp pays you in RL. The fact of the matter is, you help earn a lot more money for your RL corp than your RL corp is paying you. Otherwise you would no longer be employed. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:08:00 - [843] Edited by: Julian Lynq on 24/09/2009 19:08:49 Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: You know the funny thing is that in RL my Corp pays Me. Not the other way around. Sorry, but I have to point out two things. The point that was made about your earning your money from agents (or whatever), is correct. Your NPC corp is your Government (essentially the guardian of your civil liberties). That aside though, think about where that money comes from that your Corp pays you in RL. The fact of the matter is, you help earn a lot more money for your RL corp than your RL corp is paying you. Otherwise you would no longer be employed. The point of that post was to provoke a reaction in pointing out that this is a game and not RL. This has been successull. From here I may refer you to post #831 As you have obviously not read from my other posts yet (I highly recommend the pages 1 to 26) I do not care about the 11% tax, but rather about the way ccp is making "Water Cooler" game design, as someone else called it.
Nihiliax	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:16:00 - [844] Edited by: Nihiliax on 24/09/2009 19:21:15 Originally by: Bjron I want to go on record as say the following. If I had the kinda power that CCP does to cause this many pages of QQ, and whines and some times good ideas and covos. The world would already be flooded by now. Imange what I could do with WoW? Awesome post. For a (self-proclaimed) 23 year old your attitudes are very juvenile but I guess that will hopefully change with age. So far you have proudly proclaimed that despite 28 pages of explanation you still aren't capable of understanding why people object to this change. Not something I would be so proud of to be quite honest. But hey, the quality of your posts shows that you were not one of the "academic achievers" before you recently left school (if you have in fact left school). You seem to think that being not too clever financially somehow makes you an adult even though your mum still cooks your meals and washes your clothes for you and yet despite all this we are expected to somehow be swayed by your input into this discussion. Not gonna happen, kiddo. Your failure to understand the objections being raised here does not invalidate those objections as much as it invalidates your input. Logic dictates that you cannot make a valid input into a discussion that, by your own admission, you do not understand. Then there's the post I have quoted above. Personally I would say this makes you look closer to 13 than 23 but if you are in fact as old as you claim it merely attests to the fact that your development has been ******ed in some way. If you do not have a constructive input to make to this discussion please refrain from posting your infantile garbage. Edit: Wow, a profanity filter that blocks the correct use of English. That's a new one on me. I love the way this site allows the kind of trash talk I have quoted above and yet blocks normal English. I only tried to use a word that almost rhymes with discarded.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:20:00 - [845] WE ARE GO for page 30!
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:21:00 - [846] Originally by: Bjron WE ARE GO for page 30! Congrats. Some counting skills right there.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:24:00 - [847] Originally by: Bjron WE ARE GO for page 30! Hard to belive this got moar tears than the moros nerf
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:27:00 - [848] Edited by: Bjron on 24/09/2009 19:35:31 Edited by: Bjron on 24/09/2009 19:30:29 Originally by: Nihiliax Originally by: Bjron I want to go on record as say the following. If I had the kinda power that CCP does to cause this many pages of QQ, and whines and some times good ideas and covos. The world would already be flooded by now. Imange what I could do with WoW? Awesome post. For a (self-proclaimed) 23 year old your attitudes are very juvenile but I guess that will hopefully change with age. So far you have proudly proclaimed that despite 28 pages of explanation you still aren't capable of understanding why people object to this change. Not something I would be so proud of to be quite honest. But hey, the quality of your posts shows that you were not one of the "academic achievers" before you recently left school (if you have in fact left school). You seem to think that being not too clever financially somehow makes you an adult even though your mum still cooks your meals and washes your clothes for you and yet despite all this we are expected to somehow be swayed by your input into this discussion. Not gonna happen, kiddo. Your failure to understand the objections being raised here does not invalidate those objections as much as it invalidates your input. Logic dictates that you cannot make a valid input into a discussion that, by your own admission, you do not understand. Then there's the post I have quoted above. Personally I would say this makes you look closer to 13 than 23 but if you are in fact as old as you claim it merely attests to the fact that your development has been ******ed in some way. If you do not have a constructive input to make to this discussion please refrain from posting your infantile garbage. 23 True! Myspace.com/mustanggangsta still live with mom/dad True! But i got a shiny new truck! I am a tard now? Glad you told me, thanks! Hmm, I fail to see how 11% tax affects anything, becasue I think it does nothing, I can not understand all the QQ. So, was the jab at me living with mom and dad ment to hurt my feelings? Sorry, I bought a truck insted of moving out. Hmmm, I needed that money, I had no other choise, I figured that some one who was so "wise and old" would respect that some times we have no other options are have to do what is needed to be done. go ahead, take some more shots at me, I am not the one crying about a tax on internet money. Edit 1, myspace link had a E in it Edit 2, look down. Oh, so now I am trash talking? because I said that CCP was causing QQ, and that if I had that power the world would be flooded? Thick skin, you dont have it.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:32:00 - [849] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Bjron WE ARE GO for page 30! Hard to belive this got moar tears than the moros nerf Can¦t see no tears. I see some people seriously discussing the matter and a bunch of trolls that try to rip the discussion apart. (hint: you are in the troll-group)
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:33:00 - [850] Edited by: Bjron on 24/09/2009 19:36:26 successful troll is successful mmmm I love the attention. But on topic. Really, how can 11% tax hurt anyone that much? If the tax will have no effect that why QQ about it? Whining and crying about it is not going to make anything change. If it does affect you, then make a 1 man corp? problem solved. Edit, I r tard.

Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:40:00 - [851] Originally by: Bjron Edited by: Bjron on 24/09/2009 19:36:26 successful troll is successful mmmm I love the attention. But on topic. Really, how can 11% tax hurt anyone that much? If the tax will have no effect that why QQ about it? Whining and crying about it is not going to make anything change. If it does affect you, then make a 1 man corp? problem solved. Edit, I r tard. As you have obviously not read from my other posts yet (I highly recommend the pages 1 to 26) I do not care about the 11% tax, but rather about the way ccp is making "Water Cooler" game design, as someone else called it. (copy/pasted that for you from the top of the page).
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:43:00 - [852] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Bjron Edited by: Bjron on 24/09/2009 19:36:26 successful troll is successful mmmm I love the attention. But on topic. Really, how can 11% tax hurt anyone that much? If the tax will have no effect that why QQ about it? Whining and crying about it is not going to make anything change. If it does affect you, then make a 1 man corp? problem solved. Edit, I r tard. As you have obviously not read from my other posts yet (I highly recommend the pages 1 to 26) I do not care about the 11% tax, but rather about the way ccp is making "Water Cooler" game design, as someone else called it. (copy/pasted that for you from the top of the page). got to page 14 then quit. hmm, so you dont care about the tax, thats cool. But how is complaining going to change any thing CCP wants to do. I am just here for the lolz, and this thread provides plenty of them.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:48:00 - [853] Edited by: Bjron on 24/09/2009 19:49:15 I doubled some how, my bad.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:49:00 - [854] Originally by: Bjron got to page 14 Great. Your making progress. Sorry but please understand that i am unwilling to rephrase everything from the previous pages only because you do not manage to read past page 14. Since you have acknoledged that you are not interested in a serious discussion of this thread and are only trying to troll, may i then report your subsequentive posts for trolling this thread ?
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:51:00 - [855] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Bjron got to page 14 Great. Your making progress. Sorry but please understand that i am unwilling to rephrase everything from the previous pages only because you do not manage to read past page 14. Since you have acknoledged that you are not interested in a serious discussion of this thread and are only trying to troll, may i then report your subsequentive posts for trolling this thread ? I have yet to see you put down anything constructive, even your trolling is sub par.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:54:00 - [856] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Bjron got to page 14 Great. Your making progress. Sorry but please understand that i am unwilling to rephrase everything from the previous pages only because you do not manage to read past page 14. Since you have acknoledged that you are not interested in a serious discussion of this thread and are only trying to troll, may i then report your subsequentive posts for trolling this thread ? If you feel the need to report me, go ahead. I am trying to figure it out, but every time I try, come to the place, this whole thread is about some thing that affects nothing important. People are upset over 11% tax that really only affects 2-5% of the income of a misson runner in a NPC corp who get to go on every day free from war-decs. Or, people are upset that this will do nothing and that it is a stupid move? thats pretty much it.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 19:56:00 - [857] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Bjron got to page 14 Great. Your making progress. Sorry but please understand that i am unwilling to rephrase everything from the previous pages only because you do not manage to read past page 14. Since you have acknoledged that you are not interested in a serious discussion of this thread and are only trying to troll, may i then report your subsequentive posts for trolling this thread ? I have yet to see you put down anything constructive, even your trolling is sub par. That is because you suffer from the same reading inability as bjron does. But because i am having a good day today, i¦ll give you a freebie of me posting constructive goodies. #804 Now if you want we can take turns on this.
SomebodyKickedMyDog	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:04:00 - [858] how do i steer my ship?
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:07:00 - [859] Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog how do i steer my ship? If this keeps up with a rudder.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:09:00 - [860] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog how do i steer my ship? If this keeps up with a rudder. I loled, a bunch.

Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:14:00 - [861] Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer. If you have a corporation where you can meet people, that is immune to war declarations and a tax haven. Why the hell would you leave? Some people do leave these NPC corporations and join corporations owned by players. Hanging out with these players and having the chance to become very meaningful to your corporation is an example of an EVE experience that is harder to get when you stay in NPC corporations. The data we have also suggests that people who join a player corporation are more likely to do a lot of different things in EVE and are more likely to enjoy the things in EVE. In EVE you can be very useful as a new player to some corporations and they will want to involve you in their activities and you have a group of people who would be dedicated to help you..so you can help them in return. With the tax we want to give an incentive to join player corporations who may have a lower tax rate, or a tax rate that will give back to you in a way. If you are dead set to joining a player corporation you can still stay in the NPC corporation. You are not tossed out after a certain time period, nor does 11% tax cripple your income. It might give you something to think about and affect the choice you want to make in game, for me that is a sandbx game..being presented with choices that will mean something. Why are you encouraging 1 man corps? Because that is the only reasonable move if someone does not like your tax. How does that make game better?
Octavin	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:19:00 - [862] Edited by: Octavin on 24/09/2009 20:23:09 Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/09/2009 17:21:18 Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Gsptlsnz @baltec You need to look at the the other way round: what proportion of rookies find their way to a decent Corp like yours? I would say most because who is going to stay in a bad corp...It bad business. Really now, how hard is it to go to EVE University or Agony and click join? There are several well known and easy to find corps that have an open door policy to new or inexperienced players. They provide a number of advantages, but I'm not going to pimp them any further. How many people just starting the game even know about those Corps? sorry tools like TZ indenfication would at least be A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, or more tools to indentify these helper schools... this is what people who have a legimiate argument are asking for tools to correct the problem, you and people like Bjorn are just too arrogant to see that.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:21:00 - [863] Edited by: Bjron on 24/09/2009 20:24:46 Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer. If you have a corporation where you can meet people, that is immune to war declarations and a tax haven. Why the hell would you leave? Some people do leave these NPC corporations and join corporations owned by players. Hanging out with these players and having the chance to become very meaningful to your corporation is an example of an EVE experience that is harder to get when you stay in NPC corporations. The data we have also suggests that people who join a player corporation are more likely to do a lot of different things in EVE and are more likely to enjoy the things in EVE. In EVE you can be very useful as a new player to some corporations and they will want to involve you in their activities and you have a group of people who would be dedicated to help you..so you can help them in return. With the tax we want to give an incentive to join player corporations who may have a lower tax rate, or a tax rate that will give back to you in a way. If you are dead set to joining a player corporation you can still stay in the NPC corporation. You are not tossed out after a certain time period, nor does 11% tax cripple your income. It might give you something to think about and affect the choice you want to make in game, for me that is a sandbx game..being presented with choices that will mean something. Why are you encouraging 1 man corps? Because that is the only reasonable move if someone does not like your tax. How does that make game better? Umm, join a player corp with, low/no tax rate? Stay in the npc corp and accept that the 11% tax is pretty much bribe money to have concord keep you safe? Stop making all your money on mission rewards, salvage or mine or trade or make things? Imma quoting! How many people just starting the game even know about those Corps? sorry tools like TZ indenfication would at least be A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, or more tools to indentify this helper schools... this is what people who have a legimiate argument are asking for tools to correct the problem, your just to arrogant to see that. quote over. Umm, before I started playing Eve I looked up info on it, and found out about the game, I didnt go to the store and close my eyes and pick a game, then rush home to play it. I knew what kinda game Eve was, I was aware of how the basics worked. If you go and buy a game and take little or no time at all to to find out about it, then that is not the games fualt.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:23:00 - [864] Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer. If you have a corporation where you can meet people, that is immune to war declarations and a tax haven. Why the hell would you leave? Some people do leave these NPC corporations and join corporations owned by players. Hanging out with these players and having the chance to become very meaningful to your corporation is an example of an EVE experience that is harder to get when you stay in NPC corporations. The data we have also suggests that people who join a player corporation are more likely to do a lot of different things in EVE and are more likely to enjoy the things in EVE. In EVE you can be very useful as a new player to some corporations and they will want to involve you in their activities and you have a group of people who would be dedicated to help you..so you can help them in return. With the tax we want to give an incentive to join player corporations who may have a lower tax rate, or a tax rate that will give back to you in a way. If you are dead set to joining a player corporation you can still stay in the NPC corporation. You are not tossed out after a certain time period, nor does 11% tax cripple your income. It might give you something to think about and affect the choice you want to make in game, for me that is a sandbx game..being presented with choices that will mean something. Why are you encouraging 1 man corps? Because that is the only reasonable move if someone does not like your tax. How does that make game better? I am pretty sure they will at a later point include changes to hamper 1 man corps. Even then tho the lone wolf players will still just life with the tax. Even if they raise it to absurd levels.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:27:00 - [865] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I wouldn't call it a problem, nothing is exploited, nothing is broken..but we worry that the NPC corporation vs player corporations is not a very even situation and people might miss out on what a player corporation can offer. If you have a corporation where you can meet people, that is immune to war declarations and a tax haven. Why the hell would you leave? Some people do leave these NPC corporations and join corporations owned by players. Hanging out with these players and having the chance to become very meaningful to your corporation is an example of an EVE experience that is harder to get when you stay in NPC corporations. The data we have also suggests that people who join a player corporation are more likely to do a lot of different things in EVE and are more likely to enjoy the things in EVE. In EVE you can be very useful as a new player to some corporations and they will want to involve you in their activities and you have a group of people who would be dedicated to help you..so you can help them in return. With the tax we want to give an incentive to join player corporations who may have a lower tax rate, or a tax rate that will give back to you in a way. If you are dead set to joining a player corporation you can still stay in the NPC corporation. You are not tossed out after a certain time period, nor does 11% tax cripple your income. It might give you something to think about and affect the choice you want to make in game, for me that is a sandbx game..being presented with choices that will mean something. Why are you encouraging 1 man corps? Because that is the only reasonable move if someone does not like your tax. How does that make game better? I am pretty sure they will at a later point include changes to hamper 1 man corps. Even then tho the lone wolf players will still just life with the tax. Even if they raise it to absurd levels. if I wanted to play space ships offline, i would play free lancer, or Privateer 2, or any of the many space games that are single player. Why play a mmo by your self? I thought the point of a MMo was to play with others?
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:28:00 - [866] Originally by: Bjron Umm, join a player corp with, low/no tax rate? Stay in the npc corp and accept that the 11% tax is pretty much bribe money to have concord keep you safe? Stop making all your money on mission rewards, salvage or mine or trade or make things? Do you think anyone will do as CCP wish because they are that stupid? They will make 1 man corp that will highly unlikely get ever wardeced and will pay 0 tax. Why would they do anything else? If someone doesn't want to be in PC corp now, this change won't make him change his mind.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:30:00 - [867] Edited by: Daemonspirit on 24/09/2009 20:30:23 I made a thread on the "Features and Ideas Forum": http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1185265&page=1 I would appreciate any and all support to get THAT change in the game! Hopefully, that would encourage more players to Player Corps, w/o being seen as onerous. I don't mind the tax, just don't think it will accomplish what CCP says they want to accomplish, and I think "MY IDEA.tm!" will... No, I'm not conceited at all... Originally by: Octavin How many people just starting the game even know about those Corps? sorry tools like TZ indenfication would at least be A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, or more tools to indentify these helper schools... this is what people who have a legimiate argument are asking for tools to correct the problem, you and people like Bjorn are just too arrogant to see that. Meh, I like it (even when I disagree) - I'm weird, I admit, I LOVE forum PVP! Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Bjron WE ARE GO for page 30! Hard to belive this got moar tears than the moros nerf More NPC'rs than Moros Pilots? edit: yep spelling ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:33:00 - [868] Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: Bjron Umm, join a player corp with, low/no tax rate? Stay in the npc corp and accept that the 11% tax is pretty much bribe money to have concord keep you safe? Stop making all your money on mission rewards, salvage or mine or trade or make things? Do you think anyone will do as CCP wish because they are that stupid? They will make 1 man corp that will highly unlikely get ever wardeced and will pay 0 tax. Why would they do anything else? If someone doesn't want to be in PC corp now, this change won't make him change his mind. if thats the case, why 29 pages on this topic? Off topic, come on page 30!
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:33:00 - [869] Originally by: Bjron if I wanted to play space ships offline, i would play free lancer, or Privateer 2, or any of the many space games that are single player. Why play a mmo by your self? I thought the point of a MMo was to play with others? Has also allready been discussed, but whatever: Playing as a lone wolf character does not imply only playing by yourself. You still meet other players in space and trade with them on the market or shoot them in wormholes or in any kind of other situation. It is not you preffered style of play, but many people enjoy it this way.
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:35:00 - [870] Originally by: Bjron if I wanted to play space ships offline, i would play free lancer, or Privateer 2, or any of the many space games that are single player. Why play a mmo by your self? I thought the point of a MMo was to play with others? Motives and interests of people varies from person to person. Why not accomodate more different people instead of focusing on one type of gameplay? Do you think that people in NPC corps have no role in EVE or are something less then PVPers? Where do you think all that salvage, minerals, faction ammo and named items come from? Originally by: Julian Lynq I am pretty sure they will at a later point include changes to hamper 1 man corps. Even then tho the lone wolf players will still just life with the tax. Even if they raise it to absurd levels. I am affraid so.

Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:45:00 - [871] Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: Bjron if I wanted to play space ships offline, i would play free lancer, or Privateer 2, or any of the many space games that are single player. Why play a mmo by your self? I thought the point of a MMo was to play with others? Motives and interests of people varies from person to person. Why not accomodate more different people instead of focusing on one type of gameplay? Do you think that people in NPC corps have no role in EVE or are something less then PVPers? Where do you think all that salvage, minerals, faction ammo and named items come from? Originally by: Julian Lynq I am pretty sure they will at a later point include changes to hamper 1 man corps. Even then tho the lone wolf players will still just life with the tax. Even if they raise it to absurd levels. I am affraid so. if a person wishes to play with as few as he can, fine, but there needs to be a place for the people who do, and not hopping from corp to corp hiding from war decs and tax. So, if we are going to go that route of focusing on one type of gameplay, what if CCP is trying to give a nod to the corp people and the people who like to play that way? The people who think its not right or fair ( note that I dont care ) that some people can sit around in a starter corp and not pay taxes and not get war decd. What about the people who like to be in corps large and small, and think its un fair to them, that they cant get away with paying 0% tax and have to put up with war decs? Sure these people can go back to the starter corp, but what if they like having a hand in a player run one? The story has two sides. Right now, one side gets away with 0% tax and no war decs against them, the other play style gets no such break, even taking the taxs out of this, they are still not immune to war.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 20:55:00 - [872] Not every corp charges 11% tax. Some charge more, some charge less, some don¦t charge any at all. There are alot unique advantages of being in a player corporation (which is the reason that many people are). Additionally we are allready proposing ideas to make player corporations even more attractive in an attempt to show ccp means of gamedesign practices that use carrots instead of sticks.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:02:00 - [873] Edited by: baltec1 on 24/09/2009 21:03:46 Originally by: Bjron I think they should use subway on sticks, would work better. I would bite and with that in mind welcome to page 30
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:04:00 - [874] Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 24/09/2009 21:06:01 Originally by: Bjron if a person wishes to play with as few as he can, fine, but there needs to be a place for the people who do, and not hopping from corp to corp hiding from war decs and tax. So, if we are going to go that route of focusing on one type of gameplay, what if CCP is trying to give a nod to the corp people and the people who like to play that way? The people who think its not right or fair ( note that I dont care ) that some people can sit around in a starter corp and not pay taxes and not get war decd. What about the people who like to be in corps large and small, and think its un fair to them, that they cant get away with paying 0% tax and have to put up with war decs? Sure these people can go back to the starter corp, but what if they like having a hand in a player run one? The story has two sides. Right now, one side gets away with 0% tax and no war decs against them, the other play style gets no such break, even taking the taxs out of this, they are still not immune to war. No, story has not 2 sides. Those stories you have just invented in your head. Focusing on one type of gameplay is not only uneccessary but also unhappy move for the game. If someone joins player corp, there is nothing unfair. It is his choice of free will, agreement between two subjects. You like it, do it. You don't like it, don't. And that is what this change is about. It does not make anyone like PC corps. It makes people annoyed only.
Tuscanspeed	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:07:00 - [875] Originally by: Bjron Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Bjron got to page 14 Great. Your making progress. Sorry but please understand that i am unwilling to rephrase everything from the previous pages only because you do not manage to read past page 14. Since you have acknoledged that you are not interested in a serious discussion of this thread and are only trying to troll, may i then report your subsequentive posts for trolling this thread ? If you feel the need to report me, go ahead. I am trying to figure it out, but every time I try, come to the place, this whole thread is about some thing that affects nothing important. People are upset over 11% tax that really only affects 2-5% of the income of a misson runner in a NPC corp who get to go on every day free from war-decs. Or, people are upset that this will do nothing and that it is a stupid move? thats pretty much it. That's the whole point. This change does nothing except waste dev time and resources. Things we can all agree is bad given how many other things they could be using their time on. Never have been. Never will be. An Alt.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:09:00 - [876] Originally by: Caldor Mansi And that is what this change is about. It does not make anyone like PC corps. It makes people annoyed only. Im not annoyed by this change that patches up the tax loophole my alt has been abusing.
goazer Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:09:00 - [877] Does the new change include faction warfare militias too?
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:11:00 - [878] I think the CCP team should dress as tax collectors at Fan Fest, just to see what happens ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:11:00 - [879] Originally by: goazer Does the new change include faction warfare militias too? No it does not
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:13:00 - [880] Originally by: baltec1 Im not annoyed by this change that patches up the tax loophole my alt has been abusing. What loophole? NPC or 1 man corp makes no difference.

Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:13:00 - [881] Originally by: Serge Bastana I think the CCP team should dress as tax collectors at Fan Fest, just to see what happens What does a tax collector look like ? I have never had anyone actually come to my apparment and collect taxes in person
Caldor Mansi	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:19:00 - [882] Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 24/09/2009 21:22:42 Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 24/09/2009 21:20:20 Originally by: Tuscanspeed That's the whole point. This change does nothing except waste dev time and resources. Things we can all agree is bad given how many other things they could be using their time on. It is not this single change but it indicates something rotten in development team if this can go through. This is not first change we have seen lately that lacks coherence, creativity and some solid reasoning with understanding and addressing the real issue. The suggested titan changes are made in similarmanner and I dare to say that whole sov revamp bears the same marks...
IVeige	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:28:00 - [883] Originally by: Bjron 27 pages over play internet money? WTF? Wanna bet how many pages for 30 % tax ??????
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:29:00 - [884] Edited by: baltec1 on 24/09/2009 21:31:48 Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: baltec1 Im not annoyed by this change that patches up the tax loophole my alt has been abusing. What loophole? NPC or 1 man corp makes no difference. No cost for having concord punch a prite in the face with gods fist? I have yet to see an alliance that can deploy that kind of firepower in seconds let alone a corp. The new tax is warrented.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:31:00 - [885] Originally by: IVeige Originally by: Bjron 27 pages over play internet money? WTF? Wanna bet how many pages for 30 % tax ?????? its not about the amount of tax. 5% 11% 30% 50% 80% doesn¦t matter at all. it¦s about unintelligent game design.
IVeige	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:38:00 - [886] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: IVeige Originally by: Bjron 27 pages over play internet money? WTF? Wanna bet how many pages for 30 % tax ?????? its not about the amount of tax. 5% 11% 30% 50% 80% doesn¦t matter at all. it¦s about unintelligent game design. Explain why is it unintelligent ?
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:39:00 - [887] Originally by: IVeige Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: IVeige Originally by: Bjron 27 pages over play internet money? WTF? Wanna bet how many pages for 30 % tax ?????? its not about the amount of tax. 5% 11% 30% 50% 80% doesn¦t matter at all. it¦s about unintelligent game design. Explain why is it unintelligent ? read the thread.
goazer Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:49:00 - [888] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: goazer Does the new change include faction warfare militias too? No it does not Perfect. There is no risk to be ganked by enemy militias in your high sec areas. All mission alts just will join FW militias.
Tuscanspeed	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:53:00 - [889] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: goazer Does the new change include faction warfare militias too? No it does not So it's not "ALL" NPC corps, just "SOME"? oooooo k. That makes sense. Never have been. Never will be. An Alt.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:53:00 - [890] No, story has not 2 sides. Those stories you have just invented in your head. Focusing on one type of gameplay is not only uneccessary but also unhappy move for the game. If someone joins player corp, there is nothing unfair. It is his choice of free will, agreement between two subjects. You like it, do it. You don't like it, don't. And that is what this change is about. It does not make anyone like PC corps. It makes people annoyed only. On one had you have people immune to war, and under concord insta help, free from taxes. These people stay in the NPC corp for this very reason, no taxes and no wars. Nothing about the tax is unfair, dont like it, free will your way into a different corp with less or no taxes. It does not annoy me, its fine, It might not change a lot, but I dont care if the tax is there or not. 11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help. But, what about the people in the PC? Hmm, if we take taxes out of this, or say taxes are equal, then what about war immune? They are not war immune. This will not hurt a new player as the tax is not applyed to small mission rewards or bountys. This tax will hardly scratch the mission runner who loots and salvages. So whay complain about it, if CCP wants to do it, they will, going on and on in this thread will not stop it. Did you ever stop to think that CCP has a larger plan that you cant see?

Yokohead BulletProof Monks Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:54:00 - [891] Hahaha I can't believe this has hit 30 bloody pages.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:54:00 - [892] Originally by: goazer Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: goazer Does the new change include faction warfare militias too? No it does not Perfect. There is no risk to be ganked by enemy militias in your high sec areas. All mission alts just will join FW militias. I attacked in gal high sec when in the squid navy. Seems a geddon can get into a belt, pop a hauler and mining barge and get out before the navy can deal with me. Then there was the mass caracal fleets
Harisdrop Gallente Copia-WarRages Armaments	Posted - 2009.09.24 22:15:00 - [893] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: goazer Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: goazer Does the new change include faction warfare militias too? No it does not Perfect. There is no risk to be ganked by enemy militias in your high sec areas. All mission alts just will join FW militias. I attacked in gal high sec when in the squid navy. Seems a geddon can get into a belt, pop a hauler and mining barge and get out before the navy can deal with me. Then there was the mass caracal fleets Hey lets save these posts until after the expansion. We cant ruin the FW npc corps fun can we. I love CCP and the person that brought this out about tax is great.
Ashina Sito Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.24 22:23:00 - [894] Originally by: Bjron 11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help. CONCORD helps pilots in PC as well as NPC corps so that half of the argument fails. Ashina did not have war immunity when she is fighting in low/0.0 sec space. considering I spend about half, or more, of my time in 0.0 the whole war dec immunity does not apply. If you want to shoot me come and get me in 0.0. I just finished running a 10/10 site in 0.0. Did it was a number of other people... all members of CAS. We had intended to jump the local Alliance pilots that were scanning it out but they left and we were stuck running the site ourselves. Had 2 fleets move thought the system, 79 pilots in one, 47 in the other. We completed the site without getting shot at by the PC's that came though. Were we Immune? I think not. After this patch would we all be assessed a 11% tax on the bounties, yes we would. All with No CONCORD and freely available to be shot at by anyone who wishes. Why am I still paying tax?
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 22:29:00 - [895] Originally by: Ashina Sito Originally by: Bjron 11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help. CONCORD helps pilots in PC as well as NPC corps so that half of the argument fails. Ashina did not have war immunity when she is fighting in low/0.0 sec space. considering I spend about half, or more, of my time in 0.0 the whole war dec immunity does not apply. If you want to shoot me come and get me in 0.0. I just finished running a 10/10 site in 0.0. Did it was a number of other people... all members of CAS. We had intended to jump the local Alliance pilots that were scanning it out but they left and we were stuck running the site ourselves. Had 2 fleets move thought the system, 79 pilots in one, 47 in the other. We completed the site without getting shot at by the PC's that came though. Were we Immune? I think not. After this patch would we all be assessed a 11% tax on the bounties, yes we would. All with No CONCORD and freely available to be shot at by anyone who wishes. Why am I still paying tax? So you dont ever get a war dec in high sec which would prove problematic for those people who only ever stay in high sec and dont take the risks you do. Quite honestly your the kind of carebear I like, you can adapt, and I have no doubt you will adapt to this.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.24 22:50:00 - [896] Originally by: Ashina Sito Originally by: Bjron 11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help. CONCORD helps pilots in PC as well as NPC corps so that half of the argument fails. Ashina did not have war immunity when she is fighting in low/0.0 sec space. considering I spend about half, or more, of my time in 0.0 the whole war dec immunity does not apply. If you want to shoot me come and get me in 0.0. I just finished running a 10/10 site in 0.0. Did it was a number of other people... all members of CAS. We had intended to jump the local Alliance pilots that were scanning it out but they left and we were stuck running the site ourselves. Had 2 fleets move thought the system, 79 pilots in one, 47 in the other. We completed the site without getting shot at by the PC's that came though. Were we Immune? I think not. After this patch would we all be assessed a 11% tax on the bounties, yes we would. All with No CONCORD and freely available to be shot at by anyone who wishes. Why am I still paying tax? Because you work for The Man and play by his rules?
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.24 23:05:00 - [897] Originally by: Julian Lynq Not every corp charges 11% tax. Some charge more, some charge less, some don¦t charge any at all. There are alot unique advantages of being in a player corporation (which is the reason that many people are). Additionally we are allready proposing ideas to make player corporations even more attractive in an attempt to show ccp means of gamedesign practices that use carrots instead of sticks. i think there's a bunch of reasons why some players don't want to get involve with player corporations, and amongst those reasons, let's take away moneymaking alts of pvp players... 1) some peeps just don't trust anyone, yet they enjoy playing EVE, so NPC Corps is a haven. 2) some peeps don't have the time (RL sense) to commit to a player corp, they don't want to be a "stagnant luggage" to any corp, so they sit in NPC Corps, despite sacrificing to things they want to do in EVE. 3) some folks just want to shoot at spaceships and have simple fun, the not hardcore gamer types, they want fun without the stress that accompanies being in a player corp. 4) some folks are edging towards EVE's PVP content, but they think they should first establish themselves with the resources to sustain doing PVP, these folks are typically the ones with only 1 account on EVE. all 4 types have one thing in common, they do missions for the most part, or dubbed as mission runners. the 11% taxation towards NPC corps is acceptable (i think) to this types of gamers, but the reasons behind it seems not so. with respect to CCP, IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO SAMPLE EVERY CONTENT EVE OFFERS TO ENJOY THE GAME because not all players of EVE are hardcore gamers, some is satisfied and loves the game even if they have sampled a miniscule portion of EVE's content. this issue is not about the tax, nor it be PVP against "carebears", the issue is about CCP choosing a path for everyone to a game they say as multi-faceted.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.09.24 23:42:00 - [898] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 24/09/2009 23:44:12 Originally by: Bjron 11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help. But, what about the people in the PC? Hmm, if we take taxes out of this, or say taxes are equal, then what about war immune? They are not war immune. . . . 30 pages on this topic to return to the beginning... When will you read the thread ? Also, you seem deliberately omit that NPC Corp has also some disadvantages that PC Corp don't have, and pay a tax in PC Corp means sometimes some player added advantages : Linkage There is already some balance. Wardec immunity, OK, but to pay that, you will NOT have POS, etc. as the link states. _______ Local is fine, period. CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ?
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.24 23:48:00 - [899] Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 24/09/2009 23:44:12 Originally by: Bjron 11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help. But, what about the people in the PC? Hmm, if we take taxes out of this, or say taxes are equal, then what about war immune? They are not war immune. . . . 30 pages on this topic to return to the beginning... When will you read the thread ? Also, you seem deliberately omit that NPC Corp has also some disadvantages that PC Corp don't have, and pay a tax in PC Corp means sometimes some player added advantages : Linkage There is already some balance. Wardec immunity, OK, but to pay that, you will NOT have POS, etc. as the link states. It takes a great deal of effort to get a pos onto a high sec moon and even then, a war dec can mean the end of it. 11% tax on mission payouts and bounties seems a good deal for not having to deal with wars.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.24 23:56:00 - [900] Originally by: Julian Lynq Originally by: Serge Bastana I think the CCP team should dress as tax collectors at Fan Fest, just to see what happens What does a tax collector look like ? I have never had anyone actually come to my apparment and collect taxes in person Use your imagination, and just cos you haven't seen one doesn't mean they don't exist, just like Bigfoot ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!

Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.09.25 00:07:00 - [901] Originally by: Julian Lynq Edited by: Julian Lynq on 20/09/2009 15:28:59 I am saying ccp indentified a problem in that many people stay in npc corporations and do not join player corporations and thus do not socially interact with each other. Ccp then came up with a "solution" to the "problem". However the solution they come up with is a bad one because infact it does not solve the "problem" at all. It will not make more people join player corporations and interact with each other. and yes, when i say player-corporations, that is real corporations not 1 man zombie ones. CCP wishes the game to have a certain balance, pros and cons for different choices as well as general risks vs reward for varying paths taken in the game. After this change, people currently in NPC corps will mostly do one of 3 things: - Stay in NPC corp. Many will either not care enough about the effective 3-5% tax on their mission earnings and just stay where they are. These people are now paying a small amount for the convenience of not having to deal with player run corporations and the potential wardecs that come with it. While the tax is small it results in some sort of payment for the services of the NPC corp and so the players in this group are more in balance with what CCP would like to see in their game. - Create 1 man corps for tax dodging purposes. These people now have to put SOME thought into weighing their options of what to do and where to go. Most will create the 1man corp, never be wardecced and go about their merry way much like they are now (no LOSS to CCP due to the NPC tax). Some will create their corp and perhaps run a few missions with someone and realize they now run their own corp that they can invite people to join. Worst case scenario here is that people put miniscule effort into keeping the status quo with the possibility that it might lead to a direction CCP would like to see their players go in. - Join a player corp. Obvious stated goal of CCP. When this happens (as rare as it may be) the players get to experience another level of EVE gameplay and can always go back to NPC or 1 man corps if it doesn't suit them. In all 3 situations there is nothing lost and something potentially gained towards an EVE that CCP envisions. In what way does the "solution" as you call it that is being introduced qualify as a "bad one"? "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
MightyRhinox Minmatar Rhinox Heavy Industries Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.25 00:23:00 - [902] Originally by: Ashina Sito Originally by: Bjron 11% is a fair price to pay for war immuinty and concord help. CONCORD helps pilots in PC as well as NPC corps so that half of the argument fails. Ashina did not have war immunity when she is fighting in low/0.0 sec space. considering I spend about half, or more, of my time in 0.0 the whole war dec immunity does not apply. If you want to shoot me come and get me in 0.0. I just finished running a 10/10 site in 0.0. Did it was a number of other people... all members of CAS. We had intended to jump the local Alliance pilots that were scanning it out but they left and we were stuck running the site ourselves. Had 2 fleets move thought the system, 79 pilots in one, 47 in the other. We completed the site without getting shot at by the PC's that came though. Were we Immune? I think not. After this patch would we all be assessed a 11% tax on the bounties, yes we would. All with No CONCORD and freely available to be shot at by anyone who wishes. Why am I still paying tax? Why are you still in an NPC corp? It makes no difference to you as it is, so you may as well put a corp together and charge yourselves 0% tax.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.09.25 00:24:00 - [903] Originally by: baltec1 It takes a great deal of effort to get a pos onto a high sec moon and even then, a war dec can mean the end of it. 11% tax on mission payouts and bounties seems a good deal for not having to deal with wars. The problem is not the tax itself. It is the fact that CCP do it not only for the RP reason that the Empire should be compensated for his protection (it would be normal). But also because some players play as they want, not as CCP want (Cf the devblog), so they want "encourage" them to go in a PC... 11% is not a big deal... for the moment. Indeed, the most annoying is that they threaten to increase this tax if the same players still refuse to collaborate (½ If it turns out that this number is too low and the changes do not have the impact we hope, it can always be adjusted to a higher level. +). Every word count. As they have been employed, for me it is the stick instead of the carrot. And EVE is still a sandbox ? Maybe as long as you play at you should... Also, as stated before, there is some doubt about the real importance of the NPC problem, but the consequences are already known if it become worse. Apart that, there is the habitual posts-war against the e-peener and the enjoyner. _______ Local is fine, period. CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ?
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.25 02:40:00 - [904] Originally by: Bjron But how is complaining going to change any thing CCP wants to do. You need to pay more attention. CCP does. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.25 02:47:00 - [905] Originally by: Gorefacer In all 3 situations there is nothing lost and something potentially gained towards an EVE that CCP envisions. In what way does the "solution" as you call it that is being introduced qualify as a "bad one"? Only one of those situations (join a player corp) is something I've seen anyone from CCP endorse. The others are purported motives that have been invented by other folks. So in reality you have only one result that is desired, and it's a result that's already freely available and chock full of goodness. Or so I hear. It's a situation freely chosen by thousands of players. Why the urge to club those that don't, won't, or can't conform? Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.25 03:33:00 - [906] Linkage Another shameless plug for a neo-con mounted recruitment tool on the Features and Ideas forum. C'mon, its not THAT bad an idea! ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.25 03:49:00 - [907] Originally by: Bjron Why play a mmo by your self? I thought the point of a MMo was to play with others? Your not playing alone. Everything you do causes an interaction of one kind or another. I do almost everything solo that anyone else does in a corp except put up a POS (and I have an alt that runs one) or create an alliance. I manufacture. I mission. I mine. I PVP (solo, small gang, large gang, fleet and of course blob). I do all this except for the small gang - fleet without requiring that I be forced to talk to anyone or interact with them in any manner other than how I wish to interact with them. All my characters are either in an NPC corp or in a 1 man corp. The idiocy you elicit in asking that question shows how narrow minded you are and how unable you are to comprehend the FACT that since the very FIRST MMO there have ALWAYS been players who CHOOSE to play without any or very little interaction or help from other players. I play the game because I LIKE playing in an MMO as a LONE WOLF type. Ever hear of the word Loner? 6 billion plus social human beings on the planet and within that group of people you have many different types of people from the overly gregarious type that can't live if they are not around others, all the way to the other extreme to the Hermits that eschew all contact with people as much as possible. There are different levels of people all through that. I am a few steps up from the Hermit type in that I DO interact with people, but I prefer to limit it to as little as possible. Making an assumption that someone playing a Massive Multiplayer Online game requires that they do this WITH OTHERS, shows how little you know about MMO's and people. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Lawnchair Commando	Posted - 2009.09.25 04:15:00 - [908] So my mother always told me, "Only two things in life you cannot escape: death and taxes." Easiest way for me to say anything to these haters about the new tax: Go die in a fire, at the end of someone's guns, in game. /Been in player corp since day 3 //only join NPC corps to transition to player corps ///This is an alt... surprised?
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies	Posted - 2009.09.25 06:59:00 - [909] 31 pages... ... Ok, I'm curious as to the active population of NPC corps? My other thought is straight forward, how about auto-ejecting people into the Faction Warfare corps after 6 months in an NPC corp? Oh the hilarity.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.09.25 07:04:00 - [910] Originally by: Avernus 31 pages... ... Ok, I'm curious as to the active population of NPC corps? My other thought is straight forward, how about auto-ejecting people into the Faction Warfare corps after 6 months in an NPC corp? Oh the hilarity. So, that noob player who doesn't play past the first month and then comes back a year later is forced into Factional Warfare. Sounds good. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:

Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies	Posted - 2009.09.25 07:08:00 - [911] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Avernus 31 pages... ... Ok, I'm curious as to the active population of NPC corps? My other thought is straight forward, how about auto-ejecting people into the Faction Warfare corps after 6 months in an NPC corp? Oh the hilarity. So, that noob player who doesn't play past the first month and then comes back a year later is forced into Factional Warfare. Sounds good. So, Eve can keep track of 6 months of having an active account, can it not? Anyways, it was a very tongue in cheek suggestion.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.25 08:32:00 - [912] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Avernus 31 pages... ... Ok, I'm curious as to the active population of NPC corps? My other thought is straight forward, how about auto-ejecting people into the Faction Warfare corps after 6 months in an NPC corp? Oh the hilarity. So, that noob player who doesn't play past the first month and then comes back a year later is forced into Factional Warfare. Sounds good. Even better: the Gallente mission runner that has worked for Caldari Navy and has a -5 Gallente and Minmatar standing leave his player corp and find himself in the gallente militia, unable to enter any high sec system without being fired by the the faction navy (gallente/minmatar space for the standing, caldari/amarr for being in the militia).
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.25 08:45:00 - [913] Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 24/09/2009 21:57:09 Edited by: baltec1 on 24/09/2009 21:31:48 Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: baltec1 Im not annoyed by this change that patches up the tax loophole my alt has been abusing. What loophole? NPC or 1 man corp makes no difference. No cost for having concord punch lowlifes in the face with gods fist? I have yet to see an alliance that can deploy that kind of firepower in seconds let alone a corp. The new tax is warrented. So they don't do it for your corporation if you are attacked without a wardec? Strange, my corp is fully protected in high sec, barring a wardec. NPc corp opay for the wardec protection with the inability to help fellow corp member when they get can flipped or aggroed in some way and the inability to use POS and corp hangar. You seem to think that your corporation tax is wasted in some way and don't give anything back to you. If that is true you should change corp, it is a fault of your corporation, not of the system. And to repeat two questions any "pro-tax" guy avoid: - will you accept in your corp a guy whose reason to join is "your tax is lower than the NPC corp tax"? - will you join a corp whose reason to be is "our tax is lower than the NPC tax"? I wouldn't accept the first guy and will avoid the corporation.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.25 09:34:00 - [914] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 24/09/2009 21:57:09 Edited by: baltec1 on 24/09/2009 21:31:48 Originally by: Caldor Mansi Originally by: baltec1 Im not annoyed by this change that patches up the tax loophole my alt has been abusing. What loophole? NPC or 1 man corp makes no difference. No cost for having concord punch lowlifes in the face with gods fist? I have yet to see an alliance that can deploy that kind of firepower in seconds let alone a corp. The new tax is warrented. So they don't do it for your corporation if you are attacked without a wardec? Strange, my corp is fully protected in high sec, barring a wardec. NPc corp opay for the wardec protection with the inability to help fellow corp member when they get can flipped or aggroed in some way and the inability to use POS and corp hangar. You seem to think that your corporation tax is wasted in some way and don't give anything back to you. If that is true you should change corp, it is a fault of your corporation, not of the system. And to repeat two questions any "pro-tax" guy avoid: - will you accept in your corp a guy whose reason to join is "your tax is lower than the NPC corp tax"? - will you join a corp whose reason to be is "our tax is lower than the NPC tax"? I wouldn't accept the first guy and will avoid the corporation. Still grasping at those straws I see. Tell me, how much would you panic if you had 3 war decs from alliences of several hundred people in the span of a month AND had another going after your alt corps tower? This is what NPC corps protect you from and it only seems fair that you pay for it with a little tax.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.25 09:59:00 - [915] Originally by: baltec1 Still grasping at those straws I see. Tell me, how much would you panic if you had 3 war decs from alliences of several hundred people in the span of a month AND had another going after your alt corps tower? This is what NPC corps protect you from and it only seems fair that you pay for it with a little tax. Wardec's doesn't affect you no matter how many members the wardec'ing alliance has since it is just a matter of disbanding and reforming the corp. Actually if it's an alliance wardec'ing you they'll have spent 50m to do that, and you spend 1.6m to reform the corp. That's your first argument shot down.... His alt will not be able to put up the POS in an NPC corp. That's your second argument shot down.... Venkul's main point is that this 'change' actually changes nothing.... It's not making 'real' player corp any more attractive (and the large majority of them DO suck), and only really encourage people to move into 1-man corp. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.25 10:15:00 - [916] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: baltec1 Still grasping at those straws I see. Tell me, how much would you panic if you had 3 war decs from alliences of several hundred people in the span of a month AND had another going after your alt corps tower? This is what NPC corps protect you from and it only seems fair that you pay for it with a little tax. Wardec's doesn't affect you no matter how many members the wardec'ing alliance has since it is just a matter of disbanding and reforming the corp. Actually if it's an alliance wardec'ing you they'll have spent 50m to do that, and you spend 1.6m to reform the corp. That's your first argument shot down.... His alt will not be able to put up the POS in an NPC corp. That's your second argument shot down.... Venkul's main point is that this 'change' actually changes nothing.... It's not making 'real' player corp any more attractive (and the large majority of them DO suck), and only really encourage people to move into 1-man corp. 1. CCP do not look kindly on corp hopping to avoid war decs, it is also not an option for us as we are not spineless farmers. 2. Point still stands, those assets are always at risk and cant be dumped in a station till its over. Unless the war decers are truely pathetic.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.25 10:24:00 - [917] Edited by: Kerfira on 25/09/2009 10:26:04 Originally by: baltec1 1. CCP do not look kindly on corp hopping to avoid war decs, it is also not an option for us as we are not spineless farmers. Wrong! Have a look at this.... Originally by: GM Nythanos Hello, For #1, Closing a corporation and opening a new one with the same members is allowed, and the people who declared war on your now closed corporation can declare a new war on your new corporation if they choose to do so. For #2, Using alt corps to increase the cost of wars against your corporation or alliance is prohibited. To help clarify this, there are restrictions with regards to joining and leaving corporation, such as mentioned here: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2317&tid=1 This is an official GM ruling posted on EO less than 3 months ago..... So the procedure will be: Mission runner creates corp You wardec corp (cost 2m, wait 24 hour) Mission runner disbands corp (takes 2 seconds) Mission runner creates new corp (takes 5 seconds, cost 1.6m) You're left fuming ...and they're FULLY allowed to do it as many times as they want It may have been considered an exploit once, but isn't anymore. I think the reason was that some people was wardec'ing other people to grief them out of the game (which is different from wardec'ing for an ingame offence), so CCP decided that since you could pay-to-grief, you could also pay to avoid it if you were willing to give up your corp. Originally by: baltec1 2. Point still stands, those assets are always at risk and cant be dumped in a station till its over. Unless the war decers are truely pathetic. Ehh, no. Any arguments about POS are void as these are not applicable to NPC corp. They thus have absolutely no relevance to the discussion about corp tax. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.25 10:36:00 - [918] Edited by: baltec1 on 25/09/2009 10:36:40 Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 25/09/2009 10:32:00 Originally by: baltec1 1. CCP do not look kindly on corp hopping to avoid war decs, it is also not an option for us as we are not spineless farmers. Wrong! You're projecting your wistful thinking about shooting people into being what CCP thinks.... Have a look at this.... Originally by: GM Nythanos Hello, For #1, Closing a corporation and opening a new one with the same members is allowed, and the people who declared war on your now closed corporation can declare a new war on your new corporation if they choose to do so. For #2, Using alt corps to increase the cost of wars against your corporation or alliance is prohibited. To help clarify this, there are restrictions with regards to joining and leaving corporation, such as mentioned here: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2317&tid=1 This is an official GM ruling posted on EO less than 3 months ago..... So the procedure will be: Mission runner creates corp You wardec corp (cost 2m, wait 24 hour) Mission runner disbands corp (takes 2 seconds) Mission runner creates new corp (takes 5 seconds, cost 1.6m) You're left fuming ...and they're FULLY allowed to do it as many times as they want It may have been considered an exploit once, but isn't anymore. I think the reason was that some people was wardec'ing other people to grief them out of the game (which is different from wardec'ing for an ingame offence), so CCP decided that since you could pay-to-grief, you could also pay to avoid it if you were willing to give up your corp. Originally by: baltec1 2. Point still stands, those assets are always at risk and cant be dumped in a station till its over. Unless the war decers are truely pathetic. Ehh, no. Any arguments about POS are void as these are not applicable to NPC corp. They thus have absolutely no relevance to the discussion about corp tax. Well that GM ruling sucks. As for the pos, still stands. It is assets same as the NPC pimped golem, and the titans I cant build due to not having sov.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.25 10:46:00 - [919] Originally by: baltec1 Well that GM ruling sucks. I think you'll find a lot of people disagreeing with you. Tbh, the solution would be to end 'pay-to-grief' by a total revamp of wardec/corp mechanics, but until that is done this ruling basically has to stand. Otherwise people starting to explore the player corp mechanics would just be griefed out of the game, which is not a benefit to the game or CCP. Originally by: baltec1 As for the pos, still stands. It is assets same as the NPC pimped golem, and the titans I cant build due to not having sov. The point about the POS was that the situation is EXACTLY the same for that before and after this change. Thus it is not relevant AT ALL to the discussion about the corp taxes.... And you're COMPLETELY free to build titans under the new sov system. You might not have sov 4 immunity, but you're not saying you're afraid of a little risk, are you? That you want to hide away somewhere where the bad guys won't get you? That would be.... carebear'ish... like the people hiding in NPC corp. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.25 11:15:00 - [920] Originally by: baltec1 Still grasping at those straws I see. Pointing out that you misrepresent the game mechanic is hardly "grasping at straws". It's called "identifying a fatal flaw". Concord will avenge (it's trivially obvious that they don't protect) anyone attacked in Empire space over 0.5 sec, unless they are at war. RP speaking, if anyone is going to pay a tax for that service, everyone who comes to Empire should. It's no one else's fault you put yourself in a position to be wardeced, it's your choice. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?

DrefsabZN Caldari Butterfly Effect Corp.	Posted - 2009.09.25 14:20:00 - [921] NPC corp tax is coming its a fact and its long over due. Moaning and throwing your toys out of the pram isnt going to change anything. You have several options, a) you can ether stay where you are paying tax to enjoy the benefit of no war dec's as well as not taking any real part in the game. b) form your own little 1 corp with no tax, and play true to that lone wolf style c) Join the eve community in a player corp, sure there are some bad ones and there are some good ones look about when you find a good one you will probably kick yourself for not doing it sooner. d) Quit in a rage and not really be missed by anyone because you didn't really take part in anything. If that's your choice though I will add the obligatory "Can I Haz You Stuff?" :)
Tuscanspeed	Posted - 2009.09.25 14:30:00 - [922] Originally by: DrefsabZN NPC corp tax is coming its a fact and its long over due. Moaning and throwing your toys out of the pram isnt going to change anything. You have several options, a) you can ether stay where you are paying tax to enjoy the benefit of no war dec's as well as not taking any real part in the game. b) form your own little 1 corp with no tax, and play true to that lone wolf style c) Join the eve community in a player corp, sure there are some bad ones and there are some good ones look about when you find a good one you will probably kick yourself for not doing it sooner. d) Quit in a rage and not really be missed by anyone because you didn't really take part in anything. If that's your choice though I will add the obligatory "Can I Haz You Stuff?" :) Or maybe just let me play as I wish without forcing others views of things? I do believe the draw of a sandbox MMO is that I can do what I want, when I want. Or here's a better idea. Instead of nerfing, why not fix sov and faction warefare? The changes CCP will be forced to make because of this tax should be classic. I can't wait for the whines when corp creation and wardec mechanics are changed because of this tax. If player corps were really that good, probably wouldn't need "incentive" to get people to join them..... Never have been. Never will be. An Alt.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.25 14:40:00 - [923] Edited by: Kerfira on 25/09/2009 14:42:32 Originally by: DrefsabZN Post #919 The ones moaning and throwing toys are by and large the NPC-corp haters who want more draconic measures The rest of us are mostly pointing out why this change will not have the effect it is supposed to, and are suggesting what needs to be changed to actually achieve that effect. CCP however, has decided that even though their idea is as full of holes as Swiss cheese, they'll pretend it'll will work because to back down would show weakness (or something...) Now to your points: a. You obviously have no idea about the rich social interaction that actually does happen in some NPC corp. b. Which is not of benefit to EVE as you loose that social interaction you had in the NPC corp, thus is more likely to quit (meaning stopping payment too). c. That isn't an option for our more casual players, and you know it. Besides, most small-medium player corp have LESS social interaction than the NPC corp. d. I bet CCP's accountancy department misses every player that quits. Your opinions are fatally flawed by your conviction that YOUR way is the RIGHT way to play the game, conveniently forgetting that people have different expections from the game, different goals, and most importantly may have much less time they can/want to invest in the game. CCP are selling EVE as the game where "You can be what you want to be!", but are now suddenly deciding that what players might want to be is not to their liking. Thus out comes the whip! "You can be what you want to be!" is suddenly transformed into "You will be what we want you to be!" That is not a very sensible way to treat paying customers whom you've lured to play the game by promising something else. If CCP wants more players in player corp, they should fix all the things that absolutely horribly suck in them, not make NPC corp suck too.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
FlyinS Caldari Planetary Industry and Trade Organization	Posted - 2009.09.25 14:54:00 - [924] Originally by: baltec1 1. CCP do not look kindly on corp hopping to avoid war decs, it is also not an option for us as we are not spineless farmers. This I disagree with. CCP is perfectly fine with a corp constantly breaking up and reforming to avoid a war dec. As lame as that is, they see no problem with it. The only issue it then causes is the annoyance of disbanding and recreating a corp repeatedly which ends up being much more frustrating for the attackers anyway. CCP is really dropping the ball on that one.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.25 15:00:00 - [925] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 25/09/2009 15:01:14 Kerfira, To be fair, taxing NPC corps 11% isn't really game-breaking and seems like a fair change. It's not the forceful hard push some are making it to be. Once the dust settles players will realize it isn't that bad.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar RaouLCrew	Posted - 2009.09.25 15:06:00 - [926] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 25/09/2009 14:47:38 Originally by: DrefsabZN Post #919 The ones moaning and throwing toys are by and large the NPC-corp haters who want more draconic measures The rest of us are mostly pointing out why this change will not have the effect it is supposed to, and are suggesting what needs to be changed to actually achieve that effect. CCP however, has decided that even though their idea is as full of holes as Swiss cheese, they'll pretend it'll will work because to back down would show weakness (or something...) Now to your points: a. You obviously have no idea about the rich social interaction that actually does happen in some NPC corp. b. Which is not of benefit to EVE as you loose that social interaction you had in the NPC corp, thus is more likely to quit (meaning stopping payment too). c. That isn't an option for our more casual players, and you know it. Besides, most small-medium player corp have LESS social interaction than the NPC corp. d. I bet CCP's accountancy department misses every player that quits. Your opinions are fatally flawed by your conviction that YOUR way is the RIGHT way to play the game, conveniently forgetting that people have different expections from the game, different goals, and most importantly may have much less time they can/want to invest in the game. CCP are selling EVE as the game where "You can be what you want to be!", but are now suddenly deciding that what players might want to be is not to their liking. Thus out comes the whip! "You can be what you want to be!" is suddenly transformed into "You will be what we want you to be!" That is not a very sensible way to treat paying customers whom you've lured to play the game by promising something else. If CCP wants more players in player corp, they should fix all the things that absolutely horribly suck in them, not make NPC corp suck too.... When this is implemented, in 3-6 months we'll see another blog from CCP Soundwave on how NPC corp tax needs to be raised to 25%, then perhaps one more to 33% or 50%. After another 3-6 months restrictions on small corp will be implemented. Alternately they'll just try to forget about the whole thing and pretend it never happened.... Timeline and order is of.c. variable, but you should get the idea... With regards to points A, B and C: a) Currently NPC corps consist of nothing more than a channel you join and cannot leave, with social interaction between yourself and the other members being optional and both at your and their discretion; in a player corporation you are in some ways often 'forced' to engage in some social interaction with fellow corp members b) Channels can be and are often created for inter-corp relations. You could easily find that there are channels between alliances where several hundred people will have constant attendance, or that those that are only interested in socializing with select individuals create their own, smaller channels. Much like with any chat channel, you choose who you want to interact with and likewise those that you want to interact with choose whether or not to play along. Other bystanders may simply include themselves, which leaves you and your friends to choose whether or not to let them play along with you or not. This is not lost when leaving an NPC corp, it is only more encouraged. c) It is an option, regardless of how little you play. Do you honestly believe that every individual member that plays only an hour or two every few days while in an NPC corp will go noticed by the other people within the corporation unless they make a point of making themselves seen, heard and their presence felt? Do you have any idea how easy it is to socialise with no other tool than the local chat channel? Are you aware of the amount of casual, social interaction centric corporations/alliances that exist? His opinions are not 'fatally flawed', yours are. ---
DrefsabZN Caldari Butterfly Effect Corp.	Posted - 2009.09.25 15:10:00 - [927] LMAO Ok so please tell me where in anything in eve's advertising does it say "you will have no ingame tax in NPC corp's".? At no point does this change controvert any advertising. As for my points sure they are tainted by my personal views but please present another option that you have other than them? The change (weather it later gets rolled back or added to does not matter) is still going to happen in this expansion. So you are still left with the same options you had before, its not like your being kicked out of your NPC corp, its not like your having a crippling 100% or anything like that. You still can do post patch what you are doing right now. The only thing is your going to have to pay a little for the benifits you get. The options I lined out still remain the same for anyone that doesnt like a change. 1) Just get on with it and carry on as you were 2) Try and find some way around the change 3) Try something new 4) Quit I suppose you can add 5) moan about it and hope it gets changed at a later date but its not going to happen right away so unless the above option still apply. As for the previous poster, Sov is getting changes and as for FW it it does need more loving and im sure you will see such changes in future upcoming patches.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar RaouLCrew	Posted - 2009.09.25 15:15:00 - [928] It may also be worth taking into consideration that this tax in no way forces players to 'be what CCP wants them to be', as if that were true, player corporations that have taxes would, by the very nature of your argument, be forcing you to be what they want you to be. So where does the difference come in? Simple matter of fact is that player corporations have taxes for these potential reasons: 1. The taxes go towards funding replacement ships/modules/ammunition for its members 2. They go towards increasing the infrastructure upon which the corp is based, such as improving the network of available offices for its members to use, improving an industrial backbone by adding some more large-scale haulers, supplying ships and modules for its members to use for missions/mining/hauling/pvp 3. The funding of mineral and/or other resource contracts that the corporation may have with another player corporation or some individuals so that there is always a steady supply of minerals at a fixed price available to the corporation's members for their industrial pursuits (or trade, as it may be) 4. The funding of new blueprints so that the corp can expand its industrial scope 5. The funding of POSs, their modules and fuel, so that the corporation can become more independent from the limitations of NPC owned stations' available facilities 6. Endeavors into 0.0 or wormhole space, which, if things go bad, could be quite costly to the corporation, and as such would require some form of compensation towards its members in the form of rewards for their 'hard work' (from the taxes) These are only examples, but whether or not a corporation actually has a tax and at what level that tax is set is entirely at their own discretion, and it's the player's responsibility to understand why the tax is there and understand that whether they accept its existence is their own problem, not the corporation's. There is good justification for why the Empire factions will have this tax, and even more so with the fact that simple things such as empire expansion and simple stargate 'maintenance' costs will require player contribution in the form of ISK. It would be unfair and immeasurably senseless for the Empire factions to have no tax where they have a far more frequently used network of stargates and a far more 'complex infrastructure' to uphold where 0.0 corporations and alliances have to bust a nut just to get one system to be worth their time, effort and money. ---
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.25 15:32:00 - [929] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Kerfira, To be fair, taxing NPC corps 11% isn't really game-breaking and seems like a fair change. It's not the forceful hard push some are making it to be. Once the dust settles players will realize it isn't that bad. I don't disagree in the slightest I'm not AGAINST changes being made! I'm all FOR high-sec being nerfed with a big dirty nerf-bat, BUT at the same time keeping the part of the playerbase that is not interested in the PvP part of EVE since they DO provide a large part of the income used to develop and maintain the game I like! I'm simply pointing out why these changes will not have the desired effect, and providing a perspective to why this is and how it could be done differently to actually achieve the goal. Fixing what is wrong with player corp is a far better solution than making NPC corp worse! Since the obvious solution for 'tax evaders' is a 1-man corp, that really shows why it is not anything like a good solution. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Anhur Shu Knowledge Stick Station	Posted - 2009.09.25 16:03:00 - [930] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 25/09/2009 15:01:14 Kerfira, To be fair, taxing NPC corps 11% isn't really game-breaking and seems like a fair change. It's not the forceful hard push some are making it to be. Once the dust settles players will realize it isn't that bad. It was also stated in the original Dev blog that if it did not have the desired effect, they would keep raising it. So, while 11% really is hardly anything, that number could increase significantly. This, I think anyone will agree, just isn't the correct way to go about "nudging" people to player corps. -------------------------------------------------- I don't care if I suck, so shut the hell up!

Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2009.09.25 16:22:00 - [931] It's nice to know that CCP are thinking of raising the tax higher if they don't get the 'desired result'. I'm filling up my spare slots with new characters that will remain in the npc corps forever the day this expansion hits.
Julian Lynq	Posted - 2009.09.25 16:23:00 - [932] Edited by: Julian Lynq on 25/09/2009 16:23:40 Everyone who is interested in discussing alternative solutions to help boosting player corporations and ease the process of players finding the right player corporation for them is invited to this thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1185265 It has been linked here allready but so far only 2 or 3 people contributed to it which I find quite low in regards to the amount of people in this thread whining about how player corporations need boosting. Participating in this topic however requires the attending parties to have actual arguments and ideas and might force some to activate parts of their brain that have possibly been out of capacitor for too long.
DrefsabZN Caldari Butterfly Effect Corp.	Posted - 2009.09.25 16:29:00 - [933] Edited by: DrefsabZN on 25/09/2009 16:29:29 Originally by: Droog 1 It's nice to know that CCP are thinking of raising the tax higher if they don't get the 'desired result'. I'm filling up my spare slots with new characters that will remain in the npc corps forever the day this expansion hits. /Signed
Anhur Shu Knowledge Stick Station	Posted - 2009.09.25 17:08:00 - [934] Edited by: Anhur Shu on 25/09/2009 17:09:08 I love it. Those people saying "GOOD, raise it more..." Have you even thought about that? Why is it so hard for you to understand that this will do nothing but eventually cause people to leave the game. You want people to play YOUR way, but guess what, there's a crap-ton of people in NPC corps that don't want to play YOUR way, and if they are forced to they will leave. You know what that means? Even FEWER people for you to shoot at, and build your ships. The easy "fix" for this is NOT going to work. Want more people moving to player corps? Then fix the REASONS they are NOT doing it in the first place. Forcing a large number of the player base to do something they don't want to, just to fit a game style they have no INCENTIVE to play, is just asking for disaster. Tax the NPC corps, I don't care. They SHOULD be taxed. But, if you really want to nudge more people into PC's you're going to have to fix the underlying problems, otherwise this game won't last. -------------------------------------------------- I don't care if I suck, so shut the hell up!
Grath Telkin Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.09.25 17:20:00 - [935] Edited by: Grath Telkin on 25/09/2009 17:26:28 Originally by: Anhur Shu Edited by: Anhur Shu on 25/09/2009 17:09:08 I love it. Those people saying "GOOD, raise it more..." Have you even thought about that? Why is it so hard for you to understand that this will do nothing but eventually cause people to leave the game. You want people to play YOUR way, but guess what, there's a crap-ton of people in NPC corps that don't want to play YOUR way, and if they are forced to they will leave. You know what that means? Even FEWER people for you to shoot at, and build your ships. Yea, we hear this dumb ** with ever nerf, OH GOD YOU'LL TAKE YOUR TOYS AND LEAVE. Nano nerf, was one of the better tantrums, but this one is coming pretty damn close. I don't buy it, you play now, you'll play then, even if its in a solo corp by yourself. Originally by:** Anhur Shu The easy "fix" for this is NOT going to work. Want more people moving to player corps? Then fix the REASONS they are NOT doing it in the first place. maybe because your antisocial freaks of nature, that fail to understand the concept of a MMO, or its social core, which people in NPC corps are ignoring, and also cashing in on at the same time Originally by: Anhur Shu Forcing a large number of the player base to do something they don't want to, just to fit a game style they have no INCENTIVE to play, is just asking for disaster. Maybe if they got off their ass and checked out a few player corps, they'd find one they like, instead of believing all the ghost stories about "evil player corps" and "oppresive atmosphere's". Its all a crock of ** really, and 80% of you buy right into it like the saps you are. Your the same players who get scammed and ganked multiple times, because your suckers. Player corps are actually the core concept of the game, and where the real fun actually begins, but bogey man stories of ty corps (and yes, there are crap corps, but there are also very good ones, that range in all sizes) keep you out. Also the fear of ever having to actually lose a ship. I know its hard to understand and all, but its a game, not your car out front of your house. If you lose a ship, you can get a new one pretty easy. Saying different just makes you a liar. I do in fact have lvl 4 mission alts that ive kept in my own PC corp hoping it ever got wardec'd. I know what you make off level 4 missions, and saying that PVP losses are to steep is just your own cowardice speaking up. If you didn't want to PVP, you probably should have researched the game you were about to sign up for a little bit longer. Originally by:** Anhur Shu Tax the NPC corps, I don't care. They SHOULD be taxed. But, if you really want to nudge more people into PC's you're going to have to fix the underlying problems, otherwise this game won't last. If you really don't care, then why the hell did you post in the first place. EDIT: And to the guy crying about being a loner, stop being stupid and make a one man corp and be done with it, then your REALLY a loner instead of a coward hiding in an NPC corp. The crying and excuses thrown about in this thread are some legendary levels of bull****. Yes its a sandbox, but yes, the intention is that you do what you want WITH OTHER PEOPLE, not in the newbie corps that are designed to be havens for starting players. CCP are pretty much telling you right now that even though its a sandbox game, they INTEND for you to be in player corps, not NPC corps. If you don't like it, your a fully free thinking paying customer, and I'm sure you know what to do. You'll look like a fool for throwing a tantrum because your being forced to be social, but w/e, its your money in the end. Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.25 17:44:00 - [936] Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: Anhur Shu The easy "fix" for this is NOT going to work. Want more people moving to player corps? Then fix the REASONS they are NOT doing it in the first place. maybe because your antisocial freaks of nature, that fail to understand the concept of a MMO, or its social core, which people in NPC corps are ignoring, and also cashing in on at the same time Insulting people will not move your point forward, only crystallize peoples resistance to your point-of-view. Bye the way, there are several people in this thread who are socializing in those npc Corps... Originally by: Grath Telkin Maybe if they got off their ass and checked out a few player corps, they'd find one they like, instead of believing all the ghost stories about "evil player corps" and "oppresive atmosphere's". Perhaps that is how Player run Corps appear to them? Again - telling someone his/her perceptions are wrong, without providing a positive example is counterproductive. Originally by: Grath Telkin Its all a crock of ** really, and 80% of you buy right into it like the saps you are. And 92% of all internet statistics are made up on the spot... Originally by:** Grath Telkin Your the same players who get scammed and ganked multiple times, because your suckers. You know what, you might be right - but if so, so what? It just means they aren't good at weeding out the BS - do you want (I'm tempted to say "more of" - but I won't) that in your Corp? Originally by: Grath Telkin Player corps are actually the core concept of the game, and where the real fun actually begins, but bogey man stories of **ty corps (and yes, there are crap corps, but there are also very good ones, that range in all sizes) keep you out. I thought PVP was the "core" concept of the game? Quibbling now, I know - I apologize. And your statement that "the real fun begins..." Begs the question: why then do I get so much fun out of just flying an internet spaceship? This is the BEST sim since ELITE (google it - 22K of code... Better even than Wing Commander - and bottom line? Its still a game, regardless... Originally by:** Grath Telkin Also the fear of ever having to actually lose a ship. I know its hard to understand and all, but its a game, not your car out front of your house. If you lose a ship, you can get a new one pretty easy. Saying different just makes you a liar. I do in fact have lvl 4 mission alts that ive kept in my own PC corp hoping it ever got wardec'd. I know what you make off level 4 missions, and saying that PVP losses are to steep is just your own cowardice speaking up. If you didn't want to PVP, you probably should have researched the game you were about to sign up for a little bit longer. Liar overlooks that not everyone makes isk as easily as anyone else, nor may they be able to purchase GTC's for sale - just because you find it easy, does not transfer to everyone else in the game. (Just an fyi - I formed a one man corp just to avoid attitudes like yours. Now I'm in a corp w/four other human beings from my workplace - we ran into each other by accident. Would I still be soloing it w/o them? After reading this much of your post - why in the name of god would I voluntarily associate with someone whom I disagree with so much? It is my decision... So yes, I would be still solo... Not because I don't like people, but I'm 48, and have -0- patience for "attitude".) >stupid character limit< ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.25 17:58:00 - [937] Originally by: Grath Telkin EDIT: And to the guy crying about being a loner, stop being stupid and make a one man corp and be done with it, then your REALLY a loner instead of a coward hiding in an NPC corp. The crying and excuses thrown about in this thread are some legendary levels of bull**. My, my, my - speaking of legendary levels of BS... "Coward"?Just because they disagree w/you on the utility or desirability of Player Corps? Originally by:** Grath Telkin Yes its a sandbox, but yes, the intention is that you do what you want WITH OTHER PEOPLE, not in the newbie corps that are designed to be havens for starting players. CCP are pretty much telling you right now that even though its a sandbox game, they INTEND for you to be in player corps, not NPC corps. My suggestion would be then, that CCP prepare for disappointment. Not because I disagree with their intentions, per se, but rather because apparently they didn't do their homework (Surprised? I'm not) on who/what/how/why concerning this change. And it still doesn't change the fact that people who express themselves (as you and others have here) are some very FINE examples of why people avoid player corps. Now, if only players could turn the attitude off from the menu page, we might have something... Originally by: Grath Telkin If you don't like it, your a fully free thinking paying customer, and I'm sure you know what to do. You'll look like a fool for throwing a tantrum because your being forced to be social, but w/e, its your money in the end. Actually - this is the finest moment of your post! It is their money, and if they choose to spend it playing an MMO in single mode, anti-socially, within the rules, they can. CCP is taking steps to stop the whining about being immune from war-decs etc., (which won't stop...) But they haven't closed the n00b corps - and they haven't implemented a forced departure... so therefore, it is still their choice... Most of the people posting here against this idea, aren't protesting the tax, per se, rather it seems they are protesting CCPs "urine-poor" job of communicating their design changes, customer service and communication with the player base in general... My Suggestion to "encourage" players to move out of the NPC corps to player corps? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1185265&page=1 doubt it would get implemented tho - its not a 100% tax on all those RMT's, and involves coding - I hear thats a PITA... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Anhur Shu Knowledge Stick Station	Posted - 2009.09.25 18:03:00 - [938] Originally by: Grath Telkin insult, insult, insult apparently you haven't read a thing...and wow, who's emoraging here? And, oh yeah, apparently you also didn't notice that I'm NOT in an NPC corp. ****** tard (look, I can insult too) 1. I never said tax wasn't a good idea, I said the reasoning behind it wasn't good if other things weren't fixed too 2. I don't care about the TAX...see #1 3. I'm not goin anywhere, I love this game, which is WHY I care about NOT losing other players Insult me, and others all you want for playing their way. But, keep this in mind...I haven't heard any of THEM insulting any of YOU for you playing YOUR way. -------------------------------------------------- I don't care if I suck, so shut the hell up!
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.25 19:00:00 - [939] C'MON GAIZ! Don't slow down now! WE CAN MAKE 50 PAGES! ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Captain Tardbar	Posted - 2009.09.25 19:11:00 - [940] Edited by: Captain Tardbar on 25/09/2009 19:11:45 Originally by: Daemonspirit Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Ukucia A nudge is still forcing. No. A nudge is a suggestion. Forcing is removing choice. You still have full control of what you want to do, only now, the PC corps have another tool at their disposal in trying to convince you. Quote: And if you seriously think that low taxes is going to spur recruiting, then your corp must be awful. There has to be something you guys do that you can brag about that's better than "We can protect your money just like the Cayman Islands!" àlet me stress that: another tool, on top of the ones they already have ù one that they didn't have before. For some, it may be the deciding factor. Given how many are howling at the change, it may actually be quite a fewà Your a bloody optimist now... If only CCP had made some tools so that Corporations and Alliances could get the "recruiting" word out, a forum, or an in game channel... oh wait... maybe MAYBE, Player Corporations are the ones failing? Failing to attract that new player? Failing to counter the "bitter vets" in the rookie channel? Failing to do anything different? It seems like to me that many corps are highly elitist types who aren't led by people without true charisma or integrity. Maybe if there was an organized "zerg" corp which let everyone in with open arms and was simply about being and fair and equal among rather than politics. Though the nice guys often fail in the organization category of getting everyone to work together. Maybe if they had better in game tools.

baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.25 19:12:00 - [941] Originally by: Daemonspirit C'MON GAIZ! Don't slow down now! WE CAN MAKE 50 PAGES! Sorry went out for a few hours, what are we talking about now?
Captain Tardbar	Posted - 2009.09.25 19:44:00 - [942] Originally by: Venkul Mul Real companies pay me to work for them, I don't pay them to let me work for them. You know that always bothered me about the way the current system works. The corps should be playing the players like employees for total work done rather than they paying the corps.
Captain Tardbar	Posted - 2009.09.25 19:57:00 - [943] Originally by: Kerfira First of all, CCP has not defined what problem they're trying to solve. That people are in NPC corp is not an inherent problem, but just a symptom. The real problem is somewhere else.... Is it that missions pay too much? Is it that pirates have too few corp to wardec? CCP hasn't told us.... Secondly, while this may move a lot of people out of NPC corp, most of them will move into the WRONG type of player corp, ie. their own little 1-man world. These players will now be out of the social interaction in the NPC corp, which is where people usually meet up and decide to form player corp together WHEN THEY ARE READY! In short, the problem is not defined, and the 'solution' will have much bigger detrimental effects than what small positive effect there may be.... Try to get a perspective.... I think its pretty clear. CCP wants you to participate in FW if nothing more. I'm surprised no one even mention the fact that players who are in the Militia are excluded from the tax.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.25 20:18:00 - [944] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 25/09/2009 20:19:05 Originally by: Captain Tardbar Originally by: Venkul Mul Real companies pay me to work for them, I don't pay them to let me work for them. You know that always bothered me about the way the current system works. The corps should be playing the players like employees for total work done rather than they paying the corps. I think I mentioned this before, so forgive me for repeating it if that is the case. This is exactly how corps work now in RL. If you and your team work on a contract/projecto for a corp, the funds from your client don't go directly into your wallet. They first go the the corp you work for, expenses are paid, profit is banked, and you are given a fraction of that amount in the form of a paycheck or commision. Of course your NPC corp doesn't pay you, your agent does, but you get my meaning. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.25 20:24:00 - [945] Quote: My Suggestion to "encourage" players to move out of the NPC corps to player corps? The idea proposed in the other thread certainly has merit. In fact CCP has made some small progress as far as making it easier to handle recruitment issues already, but there is certainly room for improvement there. With the new more powerful browser coming out ingame, and the proposed COSMOS (Spacebook, whatever they name it) tech for out of game we may very well see these thing happening and more. Remember, this is just a first step. I imagine we will see a mixture of the carrot and the stick before we are done. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.25 20:43:00 - [946] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Daemonspirit C'MON GAIZ! Don't slow down now! WE CAN MAKE 50 PAGES! Sorry went out for a few hours, what are we talking about now? First of all, I am back. Now we are still QQing about internet play money, in a game that they choose to play, just a new flavor of tear. A game that is a MMO, and promotes playing with ohter players. Because god forbid that a player has to interact with some one else in a multipalyer online game And if they really, really didnt like it, they can quit playing. And lets not forget that the internet play monies is srs buizness. and lets not forget that getting to 32 pages on a 11% tax, that many people have worked out, that the tax only boils down to 2-5% after salvaging and looting a mission, and that 2-5% is srs buizness let also re-state that some people feel this will not change anything, because there massive ammout of info on CCPs plan over all, lets them say so. Mah eyes be rolling outta mah head now. O-wait, lets not forget the people who think the tax will hurt new players, when the tax is only applyed to rewards over 100K and bountys over 30k? Come on guys, we can get to page 40, I got faith in you. This also not forget the guy who threw a tartirum on me, because I am a immature 23 year old who lives with his mom and dad, and I can say with pride, that yes I still do. A immature 23 year old who owns a new truck and works a full time job. Lets see, I think I about got every thing covered. Yeah, thats about it. Here is a TL:DR versonn of this thread. Person 1, QQ tax BBBBAAAWWWW Person 2, ze tax, its does nothing! Person 3, I am a lone wolf, I play MMOs and this hurts me. Person 4, this thread is stupid. Me, lolz, internet moines is srs
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.25 21:10:00 - [947] I think we can safely say this is now a threadnaught, may god bless all those who wail in her. I would be interested to see if this is part of some greater plan on CCP's part actually, and it does make you wonder, if they do have a bigger game plan, are they only letting people know about the tax without further details to sit back and watch the fireworks? ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.25 21:17:00 - [948] Originally by: Grath Telkin Edited by: Grath Telkin on 25/09/2009 17:26:28 Originally by: Anhur Shu Edited by: Anhur Shu on 25/09/2009 17:09:08 I love it. Those people saying "GOOD, raise it more..." Have you even thought about that? Why is it so hard for you to understand that this will do nothing but eventually cause people to leave the game. You want people to play YOUR way, but guess what, there's a crap-ton of people in NPC corps that don't want to play YOUR way, and if they are forced to they will leave. You know what that means? Even FEWER people for you to shoot at, and build your ships. Yea, we hear this dumb ** with ever nerf, OH GOD YOU'LL TAKE YOUR TOYS AND LEAVE. Nano nerf, was one of the better tantrums, but this one is coming pretty damn close. I don't buy it, you play now, you'll play then, even if its in a solo corp by yourself. Originally by:** Anhur Shu The easy "fix" for this is NOT going to work. Want more people moving to player corps? Then fix the REASONS they are NOT doing it in the first place. maybe because your antisocial freaks of nature, that fail to understand the concept of a MMO, or its social core, which people in NPC corps are ignoring, and also cashing in on at the same time Originally by: Anhur Shu Forcing a large number of the player base to do something they don't want to, just to fit a game style they have no INCENTIVE to play, is just asking for disaster. Maybe if they got off their ass and checked out a few player corps, they'd find one they like, instead of believing all the ghost stories about "evil player corps" and "oppresive atmosphere's". Its all a crock of ** really, and 80% of you buy right into it like the saps you are. Your the same players who get scammed and ganked multiple times, because your suckers. Player corps are actually the core concept of the game, and where the real fun actually begins, but bogey man stories of ty corps (and yes, there are crap corps, but there are also very good ones, that range in all sizes) keep you out. Also the fear of ever having to actually lose a ship. I know its hard to understand and all, but its a game, not your car out front of your house. If you lose a ship, you can get a new one pretty easy. Saying different just makes you a liar. I do in fact have lvl 4 mission alts that ive kept in my own PC corp hoping it ever got wardec'd. I know what you make off level 4 missions, and saying that PVP losses are to steep is just your own cowardice speaking up. If you didn't want to PVP, you probably should have researched the game you were about to sign up for a little bit longer. Originally by:** Anhur Shu Tax the NPC corps, I don't care. They SHOULD be taxed. But, if you really want to nudge more people into PC's you're going to have to fix the underlying problems, otherwise this game won't last. If you really don't care, then why the hell did you post in the first place. EDIT: And to the guy crying about being a loner, stop being stupid and make a one man corp and be done with it, then your REALLY a loner instead of a coward hiding in an NPC corp. The crying and excuses thrown about in this thread are some legendary levels of bull****. Yes its a sandbox, but yes, the intention is that you do what you want WITH OTHER PEOPLE, not in the newbie corps that are designed to be havens for starting players. CCP are pretty much telling you right now that even though its a sandbox game, they INTEND for you to be in player corps, not NPC corps. If you don't like it, your a fully free thinking paying customer, and I'm sure you know what to do. You'll look like a fool for throwing a tantrum because your being forced to be social, but w/e, its your money in the end. HE SPEAKS THE TRUTH LETS CRUCIFY HIM!
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.25 21:32:00 - [949] Originally by: Grath Telkin ...your being forced to be social, but w/e, its your money in the end. Does that really make sense to you? You nicely illustrate the point that people are by far the worst feature in EVE. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar RaouLCrew	Posted - 2009.09.25 21:45:00 - [950] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 25/09/2009 15:42:47 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Kerfira, snip Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Post #924 Point a. And that is what some people like! Why should they be punished for that? Why not reward them for chosing something different instead? Point b. It happens, but for casual players it's usually not what they do. The other type of people are the ones liking to help newbies, for which the NPC corp channels is the right place. Point c. Local chat as a social place in high-sec! LOL. You know yourself you're lying on this! The point is, you're trying to force YOUR way of playing on other people, just like CCP.... PS: Two of my characters are in a top-end 0.0 PvP corp for more than 2 years now. I know exactly how player corp works! However, I understand that other people may want to play differently without feeling discriminated against. You don't! I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything - if you re-read what I had said, you maybe notice I was pointing out that it is, ultimately, the player's own choice whether they join a player corporation, what kind of corporation they join, what rules they accept or do not, etc. They cannot and should not expect to be 'unpunished' for not being willing to do these things, and if they really don't want to play by someone else's rules, they and their close-knit group of friends can form their own corporation where they have their own rules, or overall lack thereof. With regards to point C, let me give you a bit of an idea... 1. The first corporations I began industrial dealings with and set up mineral contracts with I contacted via local 2. My initial contact with FIX members way back when was via local, and I was invited to their diplomacy channel for recruitment purposes after we'd talked for a while in local 3. I have made many friends and far more enemies by having some conversations in local If you're going to bring time spent in corporations into this, I'll give you this as my personal timeline: 2005.02.18 Created my first 'main' and joined some friends in playing EVE - our focuses were industry, mining, trade and research; we had our own corporation 2005.~06.x They stop playing actively and I find myself doing more things on my own and with some people that I had begun talking to, primarily those that I was engaging in trading/industrial activities with 2005.06.12 Began my own 1-man corp and was messing with other miners/industrialists 2005.08.20 Join a corporation in the FIX alliance and move on down to Querious. Spend the next 4 months with them. 2006.01.18 Join BYDI on recommendation from two of my friends - spend the next few months between them, my one-man corporation (for personal empire war purposes either alone or with a friend or two) and another friend's corporation 2006.06.19 Join Catalyst Reaction and move down to Immensea for a little over a month before the corporation essentially disbands due to merging with another alliance 2006.~08.X Spend more time between my one-man corp and BYDI till my PC breaks and I am forced to stop playing actively from ~2007.01 till around 2008.05 - spend most of my time meta-gaming with friends either out of game or via some in-game activity on a PC that can't handle PVP 2008.05-2009.08 Spend this time in a small tight-knit corporation of friends 2009.08-present Am in one of the better/best PVP alliances currently in the game tl;dr version: how long you've been in a corporation doesn't justify believing you know more that someone else about something - I'm sure there are people that have been playing for less than half a year that know more than both of us combined about PVP, alliance politics, corporation politics, keeping alliance/corporation members or just people in general happy etc. ---

goazer Amarr Rogen's Heroes Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.09.25 21:49:00 - [951] Edited by: goazer on 25/09/2009 21:49:19 Just join FW militia... Zero tax NPC corp...
Future Mutant Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.09.25 21:51:00 - [952] Originally by: goazer Edited by: goazer on 25/09/2009 21:49:19 Just join FW militia... Zero tax NPC corp... also completely tanks your racial standings making you kos in large sections of empire Your stuff iz mine through actions
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar RaouLCrew	Posted - 2009.09.25 22:00:00 - [953] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 25/09/2009 15:42:47 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Kerfira, snip Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Post #924 Point a. And that is what some people like! Why should they be punished for that? Why not reward them for chosing something different instead? Point b. It happens, but for casual players it's usually not what they do. The other type of people are the ones liking to help newbies, for which the NPC corp channels is the right place. Point c. Local chat as a social place in high-sec! LOL. You know yourself you're lying on this! The point is, you're trying to force YOUR way of playing on other people, just like CCP.... PS: Two of my characters are in a top-end 0.0 PvP corp for more than 2 years now. I know exactly how player corp works! However, I understand that other people may want to play differently without feeling discriminated against. You don't! I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything - if you re-read what I had said, you maybe notice I was pointing out that it is, ultimately, the player's own choice whether they join a player corporation, what kind of corporation they join, what rules they accept or do not, etc. They cannot and should not expect to be 'unpunished' for not being willing to do these things, and if they really don't want to play by someone else's rules, they and their close-knit group of friends can form their own corporation where they have their own rules, or overall lack thereof. With regards to point C, let me give you a bit of an idea... 1. The first corporations I began industrial dealings with and set up mineral contracts with I contacted via local 2. My initial contact with FIX members way back when was via local, and I was invited to their diplomacy channel for recruitment purposes after we'd talked for a while in local 3. I have made many friends and far more enemies by having some conversations in local If you're going to bring time spent in corporations into this, I'll give you this as my personal timeline: 2005.02.18 Created my first 'main' and joined some friends in playing EVE - our focuses were industry, mining, trade and research; we had our own corporation 2005.~06.x They stop playing actively and I find myself doing more things on my own and with some people that I had begun talking to, primarily those that I was engaging in trading/industrial activities with 2005.06.12 Began my own 1-man corp and was messing with other miners/industrialists 2005.08.20 Join a corporation in the FIX alliance and move on down to Querious. Spend the next 4 months with them. 2006.01.18 Join BYDI on recommendation from two of my friends - spend the next few months between them, my one-man corporation (for personal empire war purposes either alone or with a friend or two) and another friend's corporation 2006.06.19 Join Catalyst Reaction and move down to Immensea for a little over a month before the corporation essentially disbands due to merging with another alliance 2006.~08.X Spend more time between my one-man corp and BYDI till my PC breaks and I am forced to stop playing actively from ~2007.01 till around 2008.05 - spend most of my time meta-gaming with friends either out of game or via some in-game activity on a PC that can't handle PVP 2008.05-2009.08 Spend this time in a small tight-knit corporation of friends 2009.08-present Am in one of the better/best PVP alliances currently in the game tl;dr version: how long you've been in a corporation doesn't justify believing you know more that someone else about something - I'm sure there are people that have been playing for less than half a year that know more than both of us combined about PVP, alliance politics, corporation politics, keeping alliance/corporation members or just people in general happy etc. ---
goazer Amarr Rogen's Heroes Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.09.25 22:13:00 - [954] Originally by: Future Mutant Originally by: goazer Edited by: goazer on 25/09/2009 21:49:19 Just join FW militia... Zero tax NPC corp... also completely tanks your racial standings making you kos in large sections of empire Well, since when mission alts were travelling over 5 jumps of their agent anyway..?
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.09.25 23:03:00 - [955] Originally by: Malcanis <<clippage>> HE SPEAKS THE TRUTH LETS CRUCIFY HIM! I expected better. I've been in contact w/one of my friends, he says that they now do not wish to go to 0.0 until after the new patch, haven't heard from the other two corps - and the last one is an odd bunch - Not so much "Industrialists" as "do anything'ists..." So, they have put up a thread on their forums and are now engaged at pointing at it and laughing... and will let me know whenever... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Tuscanspeed	Posted - 2009.09.25 23:20:00 - [956] Originally by: Bjron First of all, I am back. Now we are still QQing about internet play money, in a game that they choose to play, just a new flavor of tear. A game that is a MMO, and promotes playing with ohter players. Because god forbid that a player has to interact with some one else in a multipalyer online game And if they really, really didnt like it, they can quit playing. And lets not forget that the internet play monies is srs buizness. and lets not forget that getting to 32 pages on a 11% tax, that many people have worked out, that the tax only boils down to 2-5% after salvaging and looting a mission, and that 2-5% is srs buizness let also re-state that some people feel this will not change anything, because there massive ammout of info on CCPs plan over all, lets them say so. Mah eyes be rolling outta mah head now. O-wait, lets not forget the people who think the tax will hurt new players, when the tax is only applyed to rewards over 100K and bountys over 30k? Come on guys, we can get to page 40, I got faith in you. This also not forget the guy who threw a tartirum on me, because I am a immature 23 year old who lives with his mom and dad, and I can say with pride, that yes I still do. A immature 23 year old who owns a new truck and works a full time job. Lets see, I think I about got every thing covered. Yeah, thats about it. Here is a TL:DR versonn of this thread. Person 1, QQ tax BBBBAAAWWWW Person 2, ze tax, its does nothing! Person 3, I am a lone wolf, I play MMOs and this hurts me. Person 4, this thread is stupid. Me, lolz, internet moines is srs You know. As much of an ass you are and how absolutely so far off base your opinion is, I'm half inclined to agree. I could care less what they set the tax at. Could be 100% for all I care. Not going to get me to join a player corp. Going to take fixes that just simply have ZERO chance of happening. So I'm happy where I'm at. I have no intentions of moving. But that's the whole point right? This change won't actually force anyone to move except people that would jump ship at the slightest change anyway. So why waste dev time on it? Is fixing sov and fw THAT hard? Never have been. Never will be. An Alt.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.25 23:21:00 - [957] Originally by: Grath Telkin Angry rant Look your post and you will see exactly why a lot of people will not enter your corp. Who will want to have someone doing angry rants like yours on the corp chat?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.25 23:35:00 - [958] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 25/09/2009 23:40:03 Originally by: baltec1 Still grasping at those straws I see. Tell me, how much would you panic if you had 3 war decs from alliences of several hundred people in the span of a month AND had another going after your alt corps tower? This is what NPC corps protect you from and it only seems fair that you pay for it with a little tax. Seeing as I am and have been in a player corp for 3 years, I have been wardecced while having a tower in high sec, I will not panic at all. Next time, before speaking and putting a foot in your mouth, at least look my corp in game. Originally by: baltec1 2. Point still stands, those assets are always at risk and cant be dumped in a station till its over. Unless the war decers are truely pathetic. With 24 hours warning you can dismantle every tower you want or put weapons in it (speaking of high sec where you don't need weapons outside a wardec). At worst you will lose the minerals used for some production and lock some research slots until you reactivate the labs you offlined to online the weapons. Not much experience in POS management or you are simply inventing difficulties that don't exist?
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.26 00:10:00 - [959] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 26/09/2009 00:12:15 This is my final statement on this topic Go Here ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Ukucia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.09.26 01:17:00 - [960] Edited by: Ukucia on 26/09/2009 01:23:13 Originally by: Grath Telkin maybe because your antisocial freaks of nature, that fail to understand the concept of a MMO, or its social core, which people in NPC corps are ignoring, and also cashing in on at the same time And you antisocial freaks of nature don't understand the concept of "sandbox". 'course, this 'nerf' doesn't affect you directly and you have all sorts of delusions about what it's like in an NPC corp, so it must be good, right? Quote: Maybe if they got off their ass and checked out a few player corps, they'd find one they like, instead of believing all the ghost stories about "evil player corps" and "oppresive atmosphere's". Its all a crock of ** really, and 80% of you buy right into it like the saps you are. Hi. I'm from 2005. I've been in player corps. I've been in 0.0. I also have a real life. That real life means at most 2 hours nightly, and around 4-8 hours on the weekend to play eve. I'm not interested in spending that time figuring out which directors of new corps lie. Quote: Player corps are actually the core concept of the game, and where the real fun actually begins, but bogey man stories of ty corps (and yes, there are crap corps, but there are also very good ones, that range in all sizes) keep you out. Boy, it's good you came along. Since everyone likes exactly what you like, you can save the auto, fashion, restaurant and movie industries TONS of money trying to figure out what people want. They might think that not all people like the same things, but clearly you in your infinite wisdom will set them right. Quote: Also the fear of ever having to actually lose a ship. I know its hard to understand and all, but its a game, not your car out front of your house. I believe this was first debunked on page 2-ish. I've been in player corps. I've been in alliances. I killed plenty of BoB ships back in the day, and got killed plenty of time by BoB. Quote: I know what you make off level 4 missions, and saying that PVP losses are to steep is just your own cowardice speaking up. If you didn't want to PVP, you probably should have researched the game you were about to sign up for a little bit longer. I like crafting. Please list any other MMOs with decent crafting systems. (I'll save you the time: there aren't any). Quote: If you really don't care, then why the hell did you post in the first place. Might I suggest actually reading the thread before assuming you have any idea what we're talking about? It's kinda like you barged into the room and assumed we're talking about Survivor:<random location> when we're actually talking about astrophysics. Quote: EDIT: And to the guy crying about being a loner, stop being stupid and make a one man corp and be done with it, then your REALLY a loner instead of a coward hiding in an NPC corp. The crying and excuses thrown about in this thread are some legendary levels of bull. Really...The NPC corp player in 0.0 is the coward? Quote: Yes its a sandbox, but yes, the intention is that you do what you want WITH OTHER PEOPLE, not in the newbie corps that are designed to be havens for starting players. CCP are pretty much telling you right now that even though its a sandbox game, they INTEND for you to be in player corps, not NPC corps. Then it's not a sandbox. Quote:** You'll look like a fool for throwing a tantrum because your being forced to be social, but w/e, its your money in the end. This is on the bottom of my screen on a typical night: Corp(400) This is on the bottom of the screen of a typical PC that will take 'casual' players Corp(10) Which do you think is being more social, Twinklepants?

Future Mutant Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.09.26 01:39:00 - [961] Confirming that my corp chat with 400 ppl in it is less social then a corp chat with 10. To think otherwise would go against ccp's wishes that you play the game "how they intended". Your stuff iz mine through actions
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.09.26 02:07:00 - [962] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 26/09/2009 02:10:01 Originally by: Grath Telkin EDIT: And to the guy crying about being a loner, stop being stupid and make a one man corp and be done with it, then your REALLY a loner instead of a coward hiding in an NPC corp. You don't know how to read do you. Your arrogant, overbearing, self centered, egotistical and stupid. I have several characters and [OMG] they are all except 1 in 1 man player corps. That 1 is my mission runner who I have just been too lazy to bother moving to a 1 man corp. I AM the Lone Wolf type. The Loner. I do every damn thing in this game alone, that you scream over and over again that 'you can only do in a corp with others'. YOUR not required for me to enjoy this game. When I want some pew pew I load up my PVP alt, go roaming in low/null sec and see what kind of fights I can get into. Sometimes I'll join a few guys I know out there for a small fleet roam, and sometimes they ask me to join up on larger ops. That is the only time I MUST engage in group activities with others in this game and even then doing so is by MY choice. All other times, I don't need anyone else to help me with anything in the game. Your utter stupidity shows with that statement "quit being a coward hiding in an NPC corp". You should really be ashamed of that statement because it shows what a gormless fool you are and how little you use what little brains you have to think with. If I were your father, I would shoot myself in shame for having sired something as idiotic as you. ------------------------------------------------ No you can't have my stuff
Harkwyth Mist Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.09.26 02:46:00 - [963] Originally by: Ranger 1 you are given a fraction of that amount in the form of a paycheck or commision. Which is .. <insert drum roll> .. <drum roll ends> .. Taxed
Grath Telkin Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.09.26 03:21:00 - [964] My work is done, helped stretch it out another page. Your all whinging for nothing, the change IS going through, much like the Nano Nerf that so many were happy to see pass, this, will pass. No amount of your complaints will change what is comming. No matter what you feel, CCP feel what your doing is BAD FOR THEIR GAME, and so they are rectifying that, with one of SEVERAL POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS THEY SEE TO FIX THE PROBLEM. As has been quoted before, they are perfectly happy taking a "wait and see approach". If you don't seem to take the hint, they have stated they are prepared to nudge harder. heres a thought, all 400 people in your noob chat channel can band up, form a corp, and you still get your tax free life, and you keep the same people that you hang out with now. No one needs lead the corp, ever, you wont have bills if you don't rent stations. If that life is so special to you, just recreate it in the player corp form CCP intends for you to be in. Why is this so hard? A corp where there are no leaders, no one tells you what to do. Only your not immune any more. Which is what you really all want, obviously, or you'd just do as I suggest, and make one of these threadnaughts for each major NPC corp notifying the population that you intend to open said corp, and word of mouth would spread it. Or you can just admit that what you don't want to give up is your immunity and move on. Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Anhur Shu Knowledge Stick Station	Posted - 2009.09.26 03:40:00 - [965] Originally by: Grath Telkin My work is done, helped stretch it out another page. Your all whinging for nothing, the change IS going through, much like the Nano Nerf that so many were happy to see pass, this, will pass. No amount of your complaints will change what is comming. No matter what you feel, CCP feel what your doing is BAD FOR THEIR GAME, and so they are rectifying that, with one of SEVERAL POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS THEY SEE TO FIX THE PROBLEM. As has been quoted before, they are perfectly happy taking a "wait and see approach". If you don't seem to take the hint, they have stated they are prepared to nudge harder. heres a thought, all 400 people in your noob chat channel can band up, form a corp, and you still get your tax free life, and you keep the same people that you hang out with now. No one needs lead the corp, ever, you wont have bills if you don't rent stations. If that life is so special to you, just recreate it in the player corp form CCP intends for you to be in. Why is this so hard? A corp where there are no leaders, no one tells you what to do. Only your not immune any more. Which is what you really all want, obviously, or you'd just do as I suggest, and make one of these threadnaughts for each major NPC corp notifying the population that you intend to open said corp, and word of mouth would spread it. Or you can just admit that what you don't want to give up is your immunity and move on. /facepalm nvm dude, you're like the bubble boy grasping for fresh air...you're just never gonna get it. -------------------------------------------------- I don't care if I suck, so shut the hell up!
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.26 05:16:00 - [966] Edited by: Bjron on 26/09/2009 05:17:03 Grath Telkin Quote Stuff, I agree with. end quote. only 33 pages? Eve General, i am disappoint Pic related. http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/son_i_am_disappoint.gif
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.26 05:19:00 - [967] /hands Bjorn popcorn I do believe this is just picking up steam, and it's only been going a few days, so 33 isn't too bad really. ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Tuscanspeed Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.26 05:41:00 - [968] Edited by: Tuscanspeed on 26/09/2009 05:44:08 not worth it. ---------------------------------------------- Never have been. Never will be. An Alt.
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.26 06:02:00 - [969] Edited by: Michwich on 26/09/2009 06:03:17 Originally by: Grath Telkin My work is done, helped stretch it out another page. Your all whinging for nothing, the change IS going through, much like the Nano Nerf that so many were happy to see pass, this, will pass. No amount of your complaints will change what is comming. No matter what you feel, CCP feel what your doing is BAD FOR THEIR GAME, and so they are rectifying that, with one of SEVERAL POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS THEY SEE TO FIX THE PROBLEM. As has been quoted before, they are perfectly happy taking a "wait and see approach". If you don't seem to take the hint, they have stated they are prepared to nudge harder. heres a thought, all 400 people in your noob chat channel can band up, form a corp, and you still get your tax free life, and you keep the same people that you hang out with now. No one needs lead the corp, ever, you wont have bills if you don't rent stations. If that life is so special to you, just recreate it in the player corp form CCP intends for you to be in. Why is this so hard? A corp where there are no leaders, no one tells you what to do. Only your not immune any more. Which is what you really all want, obviously, or you'd just do as I suggest, and make one of these threadnaughts for each major NPC corp notifying the population that you intend to open said corp, and word of mouth would spread it. Or you can just admit that what you don't want to give up is your immunity and move on. I dont want to give up my immunity. I will not join a loser gang. 11% is too much. /unsubs Whos next?
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.26 06:17:00 - [970] Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 26/09/2009 06:03:17 Originally by: Grath Telkin My work is done, helped stretch it out another page. Your all whinging for nothing, the change IS going through, much like the Nano Nerf that so many were happy to see pass, this, will pass. No amount of your complaints will change what is comming. No matter what you feel, CCP feel what your doing is BAD FOR THEIR GAME, and so they are rectifying that, with one of SEVERAL POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS THEY SEE TO FIX THE PROBLEM. As has been quoted before, they are perfectly happy taking a "wait and see approach". If you don't seem to take the hint, they have stated they are prepared to nudge harder. heres a thought, all 400 people in your noob chat channel can band up, form a corp, and you still get your tax free life, and you keep the same people that you hang out with now. No one needs lead the corp, ever, you wont have bills if you don't rent stations. If that life is so special to you, just recreate it in the player corp form CCP intends for you to be in. Why is this so hard? A corp where there are no leaders, no one tells you what to do. Only your not immune any more. Which is what you really all want, obviously, or you'd just do as I suggest, and make one of these threadnaughts for each major NPC corp notifying the population that you intend to open said corp, and word of mouth would spread it. Or you can just admit that what you don't want to give up is your immunity and move on. I dont want to give up my immunity. I will not join a loser gang. 11% is too much. /unsubs Whos next? If your quitting over this then you would have quit over something far worse.

Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.26 06:34:00 - [971] Originally by: baltec1 If your quitting over this then you would have quit over something far worse. Blaming the victim - it's always an easy answer, but rarely the right one. By the time most people subscribe they've learned to expect bad behavior from other players. Nothing prepares you for being griefed by CCP.
Michwich	Posted - 2009.09.26 06:34:00 - [972] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 26/09/2009 06:03:17 Originally by: Grath Telkin My work is done, helped stretch it out another page. Your all whinging for nothing, the change IS going through, much like the Nano Nerf that so many were happy to see pass, this, will pass. No amount of your complaints will change what is comming. No matter what you feel, CCP feel what your doing is BAD FOR THEIR GAME, and so they are rectifying that, with one of SEVERAL POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS THEY SEE TO FIX THE PROBLEM. As has been quoted before, they are perfectly happy taking a "wait and see approach". If you don't seem to take the hint, they have stated they are prepared to nudge harder. heres a thought, all 400 people in your noob chat channel can band up, form a corp, and you still get your tax free life, and you keep the same people that you hang out with now. No one needs lead the corp, ever, you wont have bills if you don't rent stations. If that life is so special to you, just recreate it in the player corp form CCP intends for you to be in. Why is this so hard? A corp where there are no leaders, no one tells you what to do. Only your not immune any more. Which is what you really all want, obviously, or you'd just do as I suggest, and make one of these threadnaughts for each major NPC corp notifying the population that you intend to open said corp, and word of mouth would spread it. Or you can just admit that what you don't want to give up is your immunity and move on. I dont want to give up my immunity. I will not join a loser gang. 11% is too much. /unsubs Whos next? If your quitting over this then you would have quit over something far worse. Nothing is worse than game tax, seriousley. Its basically a nerf with no one benefiting but CCP. But yeah im quitting and ill be giving away my stuff at the end of the month. All 10 trillion of it. Ill be doing the double up thing to give it away, you know, send isk and i double/tripple it, whatever. To save time the minimum send amount will be at 100m, so save up your isk and hit me up in local Jita at the end of the month if you want to get rich, you know the deal.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.26 06:39:00 - [973] Originally by: Michwich Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 26/09/2009 06:03:17 Originally by: Grath Telkin My work is done, helped stretch it out another page. Your all whinging for nothing, the change IS going through, much like the Nano Nerf that so many were happy to see pass, this, will pass. No amount of your complaints will change what is comming. No matter what you feel, CCP feel what your doing is BAD FOR THEIR GAME, and so they are rectifying that, with one of SEVERAL POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS THEY SEE TO FIX THE PROBLEM. As has been quoted before, they are perfectly happy taking a "wait and see approach". If you don't seem to take the hint, they have stated they are prepared to nudge harder. heres a thought, all 400 people in your noob chat channel can band up, form a corp, and you still get your tax free life, and you keep the same people that you hang out with now. No one needs lead the corp, ever, you wont have bills if you don't rent stations. If that life is so special to you, just recreate it in the player corp form CCP intends for you to be in. Why is this so hard? A corp where there are no leaders, no one tells you what to do. Only your not immune any more. Which is what you really all want, obviously, or you'd just do as I suggest, and make one of these threadnaughts for each major NPC corp notifying the population that you intend to open said corp, and word of mouth would spread it. Or you can just admit that what you don't want to give up is your immunity and move on. I dont want to give up my immunity. I will not join a loser gang. 11% is too much. /unsubs Whos next? If your quitting over this then you would have quit over something far worse. Nothing is worse than game tax, seriousley. Its basically a nerf with no one benefiting but CCP. But yeah im quitting and ill be giving away my stuff at the end of the month. All 10 trillion of it. Ill be doing the double up thing to give it away, you know, send isk and i double/tripple it, whatever. To save time the minimum send amount will be at 100m, so save up your isk and hit me up in local Jita at the end of the month if you want to get rich, you know the deal. Yes, 10 trillion and you're quitting over 11% tax, hmmmm ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Lector Delmordaine	Posted - 2009.09.26 08:57:00 - [974] here we go again... CCP trying to force changes that make no sense... maybe some people play the game just to play it... do mission running and the like... people join npc corps to avoid war decks... and avoid the taxes... now you take that away they will just make there own corp up even if its just a 1 man corp... way to go CCP!
Alanea Winddancer	Posted - 2009.09.26 09:12:00 - [975] Their game - they can do whatever the heck they want. At least they dare to do changes.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2009.09.26 09:20:00 - [976] Originally by: Lector Delmordaine here we go again... CCP trying to force changes that make no sense... CCP never intended the NPC corps to be used as they are used now. (Can't believe I'm adding to this thread but... whattheheck) They are 'fixing' something that went wrong. Like they did with 'ghost training' (Oh boy now I've done it). I doubt this will get all these people out though, but maybe a few. Get real 11% is a flimsy bit when you look at how easy it is to make isk in EVE. Quote: maybe some people play the game just to play it... do mission running and the like... That flimsy 11% tax is NOT going to change that. Quote: people join npc corps to avoid war decks... Carebear heaven just got a bit taxed, people still can hide in a NPC corp. NOTHING prevents that. Booohoo, cry me some more. Quote: and avoid the taxes... 1.000.000 bounty rat, 11% tax = 110.000 isk still nets you 890.000 isk. Quote: now you take that away they will just make there own corp up even if its just a 1 man corp... way to go CCP! They are only adding a wimsy flimsy 11% tax over RAT BOUNTIES & AGENT COMMISIONS, they do not take anything else away but a bit of isk! Heck if you emo over this, you never got anywhere near the dangers EVE has to offer. Really this game is not for you if you do.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2009.09.26 10:01:00 - [977] Whatever you think of the tax, it has gotten people to interact, in this thread at least. Enjoying those new social bonds everyone? The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
Lijhal Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.09.26 10:07:00 - [978] ccp, you need to increase the tax .. 11% is nothing for perma immunity against wardecs! 33% would be good
PeHD0M	Posted - 2009.09.26 10:51:00 - [979] CCP are just trying to nerf L4 missions in hisec. I can't say if this is right, but doing it that way is wrong and won't work. You can't force people to go into player corps, even if you will make that tax 100%. It will simply either create a tons of 1-man corps, or just a mass exodus of mission runners from the game. I can easily adapt and change my activity from L4 to something else.. But i will quit, if i'm forced to play the game in the way i don't like.
Serpents smile	Posted - 2009.09.26 11:19:00 - [980] Originally by: PeHD0M I can easily adapt and change my activity from L4 to something else.. But i will quit, if i'm forced to play the game in the way i don't like. There is nothing preventing you from doing L4's, with 11% tax. There is nothing forcing you to change your current playing stile, with 11% tax.

Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.09.26 11:28:00 - [981] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 26/09/2009 11:29:00 Serpents smile > 11% TODAY. We have no proof that it will not be worse. CCP wrote it in his blog. If it is not enough and so that the concerned players still play as they want and not as CCP want, CCP will increase it. This is the problem, and the fact that CCP always say that EVE is a sandbox... Contradiction spotted. _______ Local is fine, period. CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ?
Ann Drogynous	Posted - 2009.09.26 11:41:00 - [982] Edited by: Ann Drogynous on 26/09/2009 11:44:52 Originally by: Bjron Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Daemonspirit C'MON GAIZ! Don't slow down now! WE CAN MAKE 50 PAGES! Sorry went out for a few hours, what are we talking about now? First of all, I am back. Now we are still QQing about internet play money, in a game that they choose to play, just a new flavor of tear. A game that is a MMO, and promotes playing with ohter players. Because god forbid that a player has to interact with some one else in a multipalyer online game And if they really, really didnt like it, they can quit playing. And lets not forget that the internet play monies is srs buizness. and lets not forget that getting to 32 pages on a 11% tax, that many people have worked out, that the tax only boils down to 2-5% after salvaging and looting a mission, and that 2-5% is srs buizness let also re-state that some people feel this will not change anything, because there massive ammout of info on CCPs plan over all, lets them say so. Mah eyes be rolling outta mah head now. O-wait, lets not forget the people who think the tax will hurt new players, when the tax is only applyed to rewards over 100K and bountys over 30k? Come on guys, we can get to page 40, I got faith in you. This also not forget the guy who threw a tartirum on me, because I am a immature 23 year old who lives with his mom and dad, and I can say with pride, that yes I still do. A immature 23 year old who owns a new truck and works a full time job. Lets see, I think I about got every thing covered. Yeah, thats about it. Here is a TL:DR versonn of this thread. Person 1, QQ tax BBBBAAAWWWW Person 2, ze tax, its does nothing! Person 3, I am a lone wolf, I play MMOs and this hurts me. Person 4, this thread is stupid. Me, lolz, internet moines is srs Gotta love the intelligence and strategic mastery of a Noob miner in a high-sec industrial corp repeatedly trolling a thread full of pirate alts to say "Nerr nerr ne nerr nerr! I am loving the fact YOU won't be war-dec immune anymore." Genius. ".... and this year's Darwin Award nomination goes to.."
Angelzin	Posted - 2009.09.26 11:48:00 - [983] This game is single player game with chat function. Forcing tax to use chat or be alone in corp is not good or wise. Most of those (who support tax) awaiting to start declaring wars on new formed corps will either quit game in rage or be banned for buying isk for real money. Truth is corp tax should be completely removed from the game as there is no reason for players to finance some dude main and/or alt accounts through purchase of PLEXes.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.26 11:57:00 - [984] Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 26/09/2009 11:48:15 Serpents smile > 11% TODAY. We have no proof that it will not be worse. CCP wrote it in his blog. If it is not enough and so that the concerned players still play as they want and not as CCP want, CCP will increase it. This is the problem, and the fact that CCP always say that EVE is a sandbox... Contradiction spotted. CCP don't try to understand the reasons of why some players don't want leave NPC Corps, they try to solve the symptom by the stick. This will generate more problems than before. You're right - CONCORD is the opposite of a sandbox element and should be removed.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.09.26 12:03:00 - [985] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 26/09/2009 12:03:50 Originally by: Malcanis You're right - CONCORD is the opposite of a sandbox element and should be removed. Maybe for a PVP player, not for the other ones, but Concord can't stop you to kill your target if you really want it, and you know it. Wrong argument. _______ Local is fine, period. CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ?
Fer DeLance	Posted - 2009.09.26 12:05:00 - [986] It will not work. People in NPC corps do it either to avoid being war deced, or simply because they don't want to pay taxes, taxes that most often pay losses for the ships of some "uber" 0.0 pvpers whose constant question when joining a corp is "does corp pay for losses???", simply because they can't afford to loose a single ship, because they never learned how to make some isk, or because they are so lazy to make some isk... My sympathies to all those poor "carebears", miners, ratters etc etc, who pay their taxes to their corps and at somepoint find themselves wandering were did all that isk go, since the corp closed, or the majority ppl left, or even their CEO logs once every couple of months just to see how his wealt is growing... Make the NPC corp tax 99%. It won't change a thing. People will just join a corp, do their missions or whatever (preferably with 0.0% tax), and if wardeced will just join someother corp etc etc etc... I got plenty of assets and isk to keep playing for years, i can't care less for the taxes... but poor noobs... you send them directly to greedy player corps, who will use them for their "politics" and their purposes and when they are of no use anymore, or inactive for a while, or simply when corp closes, noobs will be left with nothing, no isk, no assets, no knowledge... Really, has anyone ever gotten a percentage of corps assets and isk, when they quited corp, or a corp was closed or inactive (CEOs not included of cource...)
Another Forum'Alt Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.26 12:14:00 - [987] Don't CCP realise that within a day, EVE will be full of 1 member corps, and if pirates wardec one, people will just change corp. Costs something like 1.5m to make a corp, and you can hold 2 extra corps just with your alt slots on your main account... BECAUSE OF FALCON. Guide to forum posting
Doctor Mabuse	Posted - 2009.09.26 12:42:00 - [988] Well, given that half the people in this thread support the tax and half are against, it looks like this one is nicely balanced. Well done CCP. Next.... ------------------------------------ Who's trip-trapping on my bridge?
Maarrii	Posted - 2009.09.26 13:50:00 - [989] Not a problem, I just keep switching 0% tax corps, Nothing to see here move along. I smell a new 0% tax corp scam though, get enough people in it and then hike it to 100%, lush isk then close it and repeat :)
Serpents smile	Posted - 2009.09.26 14:07:00 - [990] Originally by: Fer DeLance Generalizing all player corps are baaaaaad Wow, are you misinformed or what?

Taattii	Posted - 2009.09.26 14:12:00 - [991] All hail the 1 player corps!
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.26 14:14:00 - [992] Originally by: Alanea Winddancer Their game - they can do whatever the heck they want. At least they dare to do changes. yup, it's there game indeed... but wait, they said the game's a "sandbox" is it not? oh, their "sandbox"? hmmm... false advertisement? anyways the initial 11% would be absorbed by the casual players, not much of a change, i think, but if CCP Soundwave pushes thru with his plan of molding CASUAL PLAYERS into PVP PLAYERS, i.e. increasing the tax rate "until the goal is achieved"... at the end of the day, anything with a costumer base always ends up as a business proposition... maybe they have a projection to the subscription increase after this changes, who knows. CASUAL PLAYERS mostly play to have fun, to entertain themselves or to unwind, the game is the least of its prioritize. HARDCORE gamers on the other hand prioritizes a game, they'd go so far just to attain some degree of dominance within the game.
Taattii	Posted - 2009.09.26 14:18:00 - [993] Edited by: Taattii on 26/09/2009 14:22:45 Edited by: Taattii on 26/09/2009 14:20:48 Originally by: Ms Iustitia Originally by: Alanea Winddancer Their game - they can do whatever the heck they want. At least they dare to do changes. yup, it's there game indeed... but wait, they said the game's a "sandbox" is it not? oh, their "sandbox"? hmmm... false advertisement? anyways the initial 11% would be absorbed by the casual players, not much of a change, i think, but if CCP Soundwave pushes thru with his plan of molding CASUAL PLAYERS into PVP PLAYERS, i.e. increasing the tax rate "until the goal is achieved"... at the end of the day, anything with a costumer base always ends up as a business proposition... maybe they have a projection to the subscription increase after this changes, who knows. CASUAL PLAYERS mostly play to have fun, to entertain themselves or to unwind, the game is the least of its prioritize. HARDCORE gamers on the other hand prioritizes a game, they'd go so far just to attain some degree of dominance within the game. Yup at the base of every decision there has to be a business justification, risk reward you know :) For every change they open up new doors to new scams, and new work arounds :)
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.26 14:53:00 - [994] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 26/09/2009 14:56:03 Quote: yup, it's there game indeed... but wait, they said the game's a "sandbox" is it not? oh, their "sandbox"? hmmm... false advertisement? I suppose it never occurred to you that someone had to conceive the idea, design it around certain specifications to encompass a certain style of game play, code it, balance it, and maintain it. It didn't just spring into being whole. And that means they had a certain focus when designing the whole thing, a core concept. That concept is based around starter corps for new players to learn the game, player corps for the rest, a player based economy, and a heavy PVP aspect... all set in a very gritty, dark universe. Of course, if you ask 1000 different EVE players how the game is best played, you'll get 1000 different answers. That is the nature of a sandbox type game. However it is the developers that built the Sandbox, repair and balance it. That requires that they have certain goals and parameters that they use as a guideline to keep the general flavor of the game intact. This also means that if a certain style of play develops that they feel is outside the scope of what they intended, and is detrimental to the overall theme of the universe they have created, they are going to tweak things here and there to get things back on track. It's not an attempt to screw over 23% of the population, it's an attempt to enrich the game play experience of everyone in the long run. I'm sorry, but most players feel this tax is not only fair, but makes sense even from a RP point of view. Its certainly not game breaking, and if you absolutely must play in a manner that goes against the general premise the game was designed around you certainly can continue to do to. However CCP is well within their rights to make it a wee bit more difficult to do so. How effective will this small change be? The effect will probably not be huge, more like a slow, steady motivation. Experienced players that are enjoying the current non-taxed NPC corp environment for their money making alts will likely either ignore it and deal with having a small (but needed) isk sink to deal with, or go the less convenient one man corp route with little difficulty. That's fine. They are big boys and girls and can take care of themselves. New players will look at that tax and realize that when they feel confident enough, and have made some contacts with people they enjoy playing with, that there are benefits joining/starting a player corp that more than offset the risks. Especially when they progress to the point where their income is high enough to start taking that tax hit. This is a good thing, and healthy for the game. So "false advertising" on CCPs part? No. To be blunt, its more of a lack of insight on how a gaming world by of this nature has to function/evolve on your part. I can appreciate a knee jerk response to something you don't particularly like as much as the next guy, but c'mon. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.26 15:03:00 - [995] Originally by: Angelzin This game is single player game with chat function. Forcing tax to use chat or be alone in corp is not good or wise. Most of those (who support tax) awaiting to start declaring wars on new formed corps will either quit game in rage or be banned for buying isk for real money. Truth is corp tax should be completely removed from the game as there is no reason for players to finance some dude main and/or alt accounts through purchase of PLEXes. Wat? ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.26 15:54:00 - [996] Originally by: Ann Drogynous Edited by: Ann Drogynous on 26/09/2009 12:22:40 Edited by: Ann Drogynous on 26/09/2009 12:00:11 Edited by: Ann Drogynous on 26/09/2009 11:53:05 Edited by: Ann Drogynous on 26/09/2009 11:44:52 Back eh? And you are....??? Gotta love the audacity and strategic mastery of a Noob miner in a high-sec industrial corp repeatedly trolling a thread full of pirate alts to say "Nerr nerr ne nerr nerr! I am loving the fact that YOU won't be war-dec immune anymore." Genius. ".... and this year's Darwin Award nomination goes to.." I am Bjron, nice to meet you. Goota love that you assume the only thing I do is mine, I do run missions and some times I make things. Yes, I am in a high-sec Indy corp, player run. So, was like that a death threat to my toons? both of my accounts? Cause hoenstlty, its a game, and I dont care if I die in the game, thats part of the game. War-dec me or get me kicked from corp, O well, my own fault for talking here. Gotta love the scare tactics of the oh so scary pirate.
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.26 16:08:00 - [997] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 26/09/2009 15:31:45 Quote: yup, it's there game indeed... but wait, they said the game's a "sandbox" is it not? oh, their "sandbox"? hmmm... false advertisement? I suppose it never occurred to you that someone had to conceive the idea, design it around certain specifications to encompass a certain style of game play, code it, balance it, and maintain it. It didn't just spring into being whole. And that means they had a certain focus when designing the whole thing, a core concept. That concept is based around starter corps for new players to learn the game, player corps for the rest, a player based economy, and a heavy PVP aspect... all set in a very gritty, dark universe. Of course, if you ask 1000 different EVE players how the game is best played, you'll get 1000 different answers. That is the nature of a sandbox type game. However it is the developers that built the Sandbox, repair and balance it. That requires that they have certain goals and parameters that they use as a guideline to keep the general flavor of the game intact. This also means that if a certain style of play develops that they feel is outside the scope of what they intended, and is detrimental to the overall theme of the universe they have created, they are going to tweak things here and there to get things back on track. It's not an attempt to screw over 23% of the population, it's an attempt to enrich the game play experience of everyone in the long run. I'm sorry, but most players feel this tax is not only fair, but makes sense even from a RP point of view. Its certainly not game breaking, and if you absolutely must play in a manner that goes against the general premise the game was designed around you certainly can continue to do to. However CCP is well within their rights to make it a wee bit more difficult to do so. How effective will this small change be? The effect will probably not be huge, more like a slow, steady motivation. Experienced players that are enjoying the current non-taxed NPC corp environment for their money making alts will likely either ignore it and deal with having a small (but needed) isk sink to deal with, or go the less convenient one man corp route with little difficulty. That's fine. They are big boys and girls and can take care of themselves. New players will look at that tax and realize that when they feel confident enough, and have made some contacts with people they enjoy playing with, that there are benefits joining/starting a player corp that more than offset the risks. Especially when they progress to the point where their income is high enough to start taking that tax hit. This is a good thing, and healthy for the game. So "false advertising" on CCPs part? No. To be blunt, its more of a lack of insight on how a gaming world of this nature has to function/evolve on your part. I can appreciate a knee jerk response to something you don't particularly like as much as the next guy, but c'mon. and i'm presuming it never occurred to you that some people or gamers would not partake the PVP content of this game, and i could say that it's not for just this game but any other MMO with PVE and PVP content. and a "fix" whereby 23% (your numbers)of the playing community is alienated advertently or inadvertently would result to more problems. and yes, the initial 11% could be sucked up with annoyance, but the premise of "encouraging" casual players to leave npc corps is what makes it a problem rather than a fix. then again, my opinions are my opinions, if you think all gamers are the same, think again. $15 a month for more hassle than entertainment or fun is not just me, well, unless of course if playing MMOs can feed my family.. hehe, but by then, it'll be a "JOB"...
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar RaouLCrew	Posted - 2009.09.26 17:17:00 - [998] Originally by: Serge Bastana /hands Bjorn popcorn I do believe this is just picking up steam, and it's only been going a few days, so 33 isn't too bad really. I once caused a mini-threadnaught (20 pages!) on the F&I forum by suggesting players in NPC corps be limited in the ships they are allowed to fly, as well as penalties for corp-shifting. Check it out. ---
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.26 18:53:00 - [999] Quote: and i'm presuming it never occurred to you that some people or gamers would not partake the PVP content of this game, and i could say that it's not for just this game but any other MMO with PVE and PVP content. Interesting statement. It has nothing what-so-ever to do with what I posted, but interesting. Just out of curiosity, where do you read that I said anyone in this game must "partake" in PVP? I mentioned it was one of the main elements the game was designed around. There is a difference. No one is forcing you to change your style of play. Perhaps you should actually read the post, especially the bit about how it affects new players far more than established players. Quote: and a "fix" whereby 23% (your numbers)of the playing community is alienated inadvertently or inadvertently would result to more problems. You mean like any other balancing action taken by CCP in the past? Of course people get vocal if the change is not to their advantage, but ultimately it makes for a better game for everyone in the long run, including those who feel "alienated". Quote: and yes, the initial 11% could be sucked up with annoyance, but the premise of "encouraging" casual players to leave npc corps is what makes it a problem rather than a fix. Perhaps in your eyes that encouragement is a problem, in the eyes of the average EVE player it is not. More importantly, in the eyes of new players it will simply make sense. Quote: then again, my opinions are my opinions, if you think all gamers are the same, think again. $15 a month for more hassle than entertainment or fun is not just me, well, unless of course if playing MMOs can feed my family.. hehe, but by then, it'll be a "JOB"... Of course you are more than welcome to your opinions, however never did I say in any way that all gamers are the same. Player corporations have many, many advantages over NPC corps for the casual player. If you haven't realized that yet, no problem. Continue as you are. Nobody cares. It is interesting to note you feel this change might mean that spending $15 a month could make this game more like work that fun. That's quite a leap there. However, if you truly feel that grinding missions solo is more entertaining that the wide variety of activities that player corps open the door to, so be it. To me it sounds like you value the mindless accumulation of isk to be more important than any level of personal "entertainment", but that hardly matters. If a small tax being put in place makes your playtime too much like a job, then perhaps its time for you to move on. As always, that part of the equation is your call. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.26 20:49:00 - [1000] Edited by: Ms Iustitia on 26/09/2009 20:54:06 Edited by: Ms Iustitia on 26/09/2009 20:50:00 Answer to Post 997 sigh, i've read and re-read what soundwave posted, and i think my command of english is more than sufficient to understand it. now, let's start with the basics, with this taxation, players are "encouraged" to move on to player corporations/alliances, it'll start at 11%, if deemed low enough to have an impact, they'll raise it as necessary. by this statement alone, players are "encouraged" to adapt a new play style, is it not? why? this players are stuck with the NPC corp because all they want's the PvE content of EVE, most notably, mission running. they don't care much about the rest of EVE, just doing their respective thing and get a snicker or 2 from corp chat. and yes, they love the wardec immunity, they're not hiding or anything, they just want to be left alone. they log on, do a mission or so, then winding down, stuck in a station watching corp chat, with so many on, there's bound to be something funny, then afk. let me see, can he do that in an established corp? i think not, so lets move on to the scenario where that guy created a corp of his own, hmmm, no more corp chat to look for funny comments and such, switched to local, alas, 10 jumps from a trade hub, not much activity, so, he did a mission, happily salvaging/looting the wrecks when a guy shows up and starts salvaging his wrecks, tries to shoo him away, then shoots at the wrecks to destroy it before he can salvage more of supposedly your wrecks, you're annoyed leaving the computer that night. the next day, hmm, not good, someone declared war on you, disband and create a new corp? sigh... if this goes on for a while, i think playing sins of solar empire, or x2 would be better. you see, my point is this, yes, in certain ways, play style would change, and yes, CCP has the right to make their game world better, but i hope CCP understands that people will tend to be in neutral places most often, especially those peeps that i've described above. "encouraging" peeps to move to player corps is not and will not address the issues regarding a dismal PvP content, nor it will increase the number of subscriptions, on the contrary, it MAY cause lose of subscriptions. yes, established players into mining or industry would not be affected, only the mission runners. "balancing action", tell me, what is being balanced here? population issue? i hope u won't say income, coz nulsec ratting is profitable, i've heard, high-sec corps have exploration sites and wormholes. i think this is not a "balancing action", CCP "prefers" that players be in player-run corp than npc corps, this action is based upon some peeps claiming "unrealistic scenario" w/in empire. my eyes? 34 pages with just me arguing against it? don't think so. hmmm, they keep telling about the advantages of a player corp, but frankly, we don't care about it as well.. along with the advantages of a player corp comes with responsibilities, unless you've forgotten about "risk versus reward". so, let me ask you, being in a player corp, say, an established corp, how many are online at any given time, on average? now, how many will ask help for a mission, ask to escort to move goods, how many will ask you to join in for a wormhole or if you have a sector in nullsec, aren't you obligated to go on patrol every now and then? and aren't you obligated to gave in to this every now and then, even if its not really what you have planned for that moment? now, that sort of thing is what some of the peeps stuck in npc corp is trying to avoid. and to some, if its against what they want, that's not fun and could be dubbed as "work".

chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.09.26 21:57:00 - [1001] Edited by: chatgris on 26/09/2009 21:57:27 Originally by: Maarrii Not a problem, I just keep switching 0% tax corps, Nothing to see here move along. I smell a new 0% tax corp scam though, get enough people in it and then hike it to 100%, lush isk then close it and repeat :) More like "here, join my 0% corp" and then gain some trust and gank their faction fit mission running ship. And people thought the lofty scam was bad.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.26 23:43:00 - [1002] And lo, a new level of paranoia was born in the heavens! ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Xephys Dark Twilight Solutions	Posted - 2009.09.26 23:46:00 - [1003] 1000th post! \o/
Fortum Peccavi	Posted - 2009.09.26 23:58:00 - [1004] ... This thread is still alive? Whine some more, I wanna see 2k posts when I come back. I still haven't read anywhere in this 34 page monstrosity anything that will adversely affect people that stay in NPC corps. And remember folks, you are paying to play thier game. Not the other way around.
RedSplat	Posted - 2009.09.27 00:09:00 - [1005] I like it when you cry. Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.27 00:11:00 - [1006] :)) btw, if ccp really wants to enhance the PvP of EVE, there are instances where a player under an npc corp helps one side of 2 warring player corps mostly by repairing damage, just heard about it so i'm not aware of current implications to the player aiding a side, but i guess, ccp can implement aggression timers, any means of active support is an act of war. javascript:insertsmilie('','WebPost','text');
Harkwyth Mist Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.09.27 01:39:00 - [1007] Originally by: Ms Iustitia Edited by: Ms Iustitia on 26/09/2009 20:54:06 Edited by: Ms Iustitia on 26/09/2009 20:50:00 this players are stuck with the NPC corp because all they want's the PvE content of EVE, most notably, mission running. they don't care much about the rest of EVE, just doing their respective thing and get a snicker or 2 from corp chat. and yes, they love the wardec immunity, they're not hiding or anything, they just want to be left alone. they log on, do a mission or so, then winding down, stuck in a station watching corp chat, with so many on, there's bound to be something funny, then afk. let me see, can he do that in an established corp? i think not, Joining a player ran corp does NOT prevent someone from logging on and running a few missions Joining a player ran corp can also give those moments of chat-window amusement There are lots of pure Hi-Sec Corps, that never go near lo-sec/0.0. They mine, they research, they trade and they mission run, sometimes they even form gasp fleets and do mining or missions together ... imagine that, co-operating with other people. Yes there are elitist *****s in some player corps, but it's odd how my personal experiences mean i've seen more elitist *****s in NPC corps.
Ashina Sito Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.27 01:44:00 - [1008] Originally by: Xephys Edited by: Xephys on 26/09/2009 23:47:27 1000th post! \o/ edit: just adding to that, it's amazing how much crying there be when an update actually affects carebears in a negative way. Nice one CCP. First. Most of the posters that are commenting on the negative side of the change are not whining, they are simply stating that it will not do what CCP what it to do. Secondly, nothing beats the amount of whinage that came from nano's getting fixed.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.27 06:26:00 - [1009] Originally by: Ashina Sito First. Most of the posters that are commenting on the negative side of the change are not whining, they are simply stating that it will not do what CCP what it to do. Secondly, nothing beats the amount of whinage that came from nano's getting fixed. I have to agree. As good as this whine is it cannot beat the nano fix whines
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.27 07:07:00 - [1010] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 27/09/2009 07:08:29 So many posts here which assume that joining a player Corp is automatically a good thing. Eve players - as a group you greatly overestimate yourselves. Some proportion of the people who play EvE are ganmers of course. But EvE is rightly notorious in the MMO world as the game that attracts and holds griefers. Point this out and a bunch of people will claim it's easy to find like-minded players. Well, it's easy for a new scumbag to find like-minded players, but what about people who don't play EvE to steal, grief, backstab, and terrorize? It may be why the majority pay their subscription, but it's not what brought me to EvE. I've seen proof that there are real gamers in EvE. ISD in Rookie help. I have high hopes for EvE University. And along with those, I've seen unmistakable signs of real gamers in the forums and my NPC Corp, so I'm still here. But nothing can force me to hook up with some random group of EvE players because that's what CCP thiks is good for the game. My social contacts with EvE will expand one player at a time, because I have no interest in interacting with the typical EvE player. It will take a long time, but that's going to be my choice. CCP can't use external pressure to expose me to WarDec griefers. They can't force me to go looking for a player Corp full of strangers. But the path for a player who isn't looking to roleplay a scumbag is already a difficult labyrinth. CCP can easily make me leave the game.

Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.09.27 09:19:00 - [1011] Edited by: Rordan D''Kherr on 27/09/2009 09:19:40 Originally by: Gsptlsnz But nothing can force me to hook up with some random group of EvE players ... So where is the ~~10+~~ 30++ pages problem then?
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.27 10:55:00 - [1012] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 27/09/2009 10:55:54 @ Rordan D'Kherr You left out the rest of that paragraph in the interests of making a shallow smartass comment: "CCP can easily make me leave the game" Of course most EvE players delight in making the game unplayable for rookies, and not so many people will stop playing - probably none until the tax is increased a few more times, and 1-man Corps prove to be impractical. Perhaps CCP will see the general increase in happiness as being more valuable than the loss of a few rookies and PvE players.
Terri Lam Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.28 02:35:00 - [1013] Originally by: Gsptlsnz Of course most EvE players delight in making the game unplayable for rookies, and not so many people will stop playing - probably none until the tax is increased a few more times, and 1-man Corps prove to be impractical. Perhaps CCP will see the general increase in happiness as being more valuable than the loss of a few rookies and PvE players. What do you mean one-man corps prove to be impractical? It seems that all the other posts have championed them as The Care Bear's solution to all this tax nonsense. Granted no one in these one-man corps will move to 0.0, but that's a fly in CCP's vision of what their rather profitable soup should look like, not mine or my fellow NPC-ers. Please elaborate on the future failure of the one-man corps.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.28 03:12:00 - [1014] Originally by: Serpents smile Originally by: PeHD0M I can easily adapt and change my activity from L4 to something else.. But i will quit, if i'm forced to play the game in the way i don't like. There is nothing preventing you from doing L4's, with 11% tax. There is nothing forcing you to change your current playing stile, with 11% tax. Which points out quite nicely why the whole concept is complete and utter failsauce. Some people don't want to play CCP's game the way CCP thinks they should. Rather than improve the game so that perhaps people would like to play it the way they "should", CCP decides to make it suck just slightly to play it "wrong". It's so completely stupid I'm beginning to think it's actually just a ploy to distract folks who have been whining about NPC corps for so long. At least that makes some kind of sense. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
arbiter reborn	Posted - 2009.09.28 03:18:00 - [1015] HELP HELP, HERRE COME THE BEARS
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.28 03:18:00 - [1016] Originally by: Ranger ... it's an attempt to enrich the game play experience of everyone in the long run. Don't **** down my back and tell me it's raining. They're not "enriching" anything. They're making something slightly less profitable. There is a difference. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.28 03:19:00 - [1017] So I just got my new sig Originally by: Hamshoe Don't **** down my back and tell me it's raining.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.28 03:22:00 - [1018] Originally by: arbiter reborn HELP HELP, HERRE COME THE BEARS Someone should use this as well ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.28 05:43:00 - [1019] Originally by: Terri Lam <....>Please elaborate on the future failure of the one-man corps. Assuming CCP are foolish enough to impose this ridiculous tax, I expect this: A) CCP will note the rapid growth in the number of 1-man Corps, and impose measures to discourage them. For example it would be easy enough to impose a minimum membership requirement, and entirely consistent with the anti-rookie emphasis of this tax. B) EvE has an effectively infinite supply of griefers. Most griefers are alts of well-established players, so they can afford many more Corps and wardecs than the ex-NPC Corp members can afford Corps. The number of wardec-griefing Corps will expand beyond the number of targets, and the 1-man Corps will be permanently wardecced, thus becoming convenient prmanent targets. Either one will achieve the desired objectives of CCP and high-SP players, finally realizing their fondest dream: the last bastion of players who don't choose to be the unwilling targets of gankers will leave the game. EvE will stablilize on a fine balance between the MMO sadists and the MMO maschoists. Both groups exist only to particiate in one-sided ganks and look at the results (fortunately complemantary) on killboards, so the overall happiness of the remaining players in the EvE universe will increase.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.28 07:00:00 - [1020] Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 28/09/2009 06:38:42 Originally by: Terri Lam <....>Please elaborate on the future failure of the one-man corps. Assuming CCP are foolish enough to impose this ridiculous tax, I expect this: A) CCP will note the rapid growth in the number of 1-man Corps, and impose measures to discourage them. For example it would be easy enough to impose a minimum membership requirement, and entirely consistent with the anti-rookie emphasis of this tax. B) EvE has an effectively infinite supply of griefers. Most griefers are alts of well-established players, so they can afford many more Corps and wardecs than the ex-NPC Corp members can afford Corps. The number of wardec-griefing Corps will expand beyond the number of victims, and the 1-man Corps will be continuously wardecced, thus becoming convenient permanent targets. Either one will achieve the desired objectives of CCP and high-SP players, finally realizing their fondest dream: the last bastion of players who don't choose to be the unwilling targets of gankers will leave the game. EvE will stablilize on a fine balance between the MMO sadists and the MMO masochists. Both groups exist only to particiate in one-sided ganks and look at the results (fortunately complemantary) on killboards, so the overall happiness of the remaining players in the EvE universe will increase. It is, of course, impossible that any other outcome might occur. Such as new players deciding to join corps not entirely composed of new players. Such as existing, non-terrible corps adapting to the new circumstances? Such as EvE-University expanding it's operation? (In before ALL REAL ELITE PEEVEEPEE CORPS REQUIRE TWELVETY-NINE JILLION SP AND FOUR CAPITAL ALTS BEFORE THEY LET YOU EVEN APPLY) "Effectively infinite supply"... that's a good one. So you're contending that right now, all empire corps are wardecced all the time, as would be the case if there were infinitely many "hi-sec griefers"? Seriously mate, I know you're kind of ticked off that your empire mission alt is gonna be a tiny bit less profitable, but even on the EvE-O forums, there comes a level of outrageous lie that steps over the line.

XFreedomX	Posted - 2009.09.28 07:22:00 - [1021] If idea is to tax isk farmer. Fail. If idea is to give the solo mission runners a gentle nudge to expand their game. Cool.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.09.28 07:25:00 - [1022] Though we should admit that more "ISK Sinks" are needed because the respawning resources being converted to ISK creates inflation (as money is being created out of nothing - see the US Federal Reserve and the dollar value curve from 1904 to present), what I think is torquing a lot of people over this tax is that a religious rule is being violated by CCP. Those that zealously push this rule, as if in religion, are the same people who are wanting it violated. When someone gets scammed, ganked, blobbed, has their POS wrecked, loot stolen, ninja'ed, and anything else, there is a chorus of pirates, griefbears, and other nefarious nabobs saying "It's a Sandbox! CCP does not control every aspect of the game or what people can and cannot do. Stop crying dammit!" But this tax, though small, is a way of CCP violating that sandbox rule and the same people pushing the sandbox rule are the ones celebrating it. But since the precedent is set for EvE no longer being a sandbox, beware! Yes the day may come when you will need to start putting as much biomass into your clone vat as you take out. Perhaps the day comes when your crew rebels against you for being a murderer too. But "taxes are a part of life and should be in the game" they say. Well then I agree... Getting criminally flagged, your bank accounts locked, and a visit by the cops is what happens when you send money to known criminals and terrorists. So that former sandbox where you once lived tax free may also be that former sandbox where you once made ISK with an alt and sent it all to your piratey main. That's life, and it's not a sandbox either. In the end, using an overlord type power, be that the CCP devs or the government of your nation, to push your ideals and desires on others by force and law (they are the same), is a sword that cuts both ways. Beware.
Serge Bastana Gallente GWA Corp	Posted - 2009.09.28 07:54:00 - [1023] I recall reading that CCP has made a decision to move away from the sandbox in all areas of the game except 0.0, so perhaps this is one symptom of that. ------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag. Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited!
Princess Jessica Minmatar Red Dawn Systema	Posted - 2009.09.28 07:56:00 - [1024] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer But "taxes are a part of life and should be in the game" they say. Well then I agree... Getting criminally flagged, your bank accounts locked, and a visit by the cops is what happens when you send money to known criminals and terrorists. So that former sandbox where you once lived tax free may also be that former sandbox where you once made ISK with an alt and sent it all to your piratey main. That's life, and it's not a sandbox either. In the end, using an overlord type power, be that the CCP devs or the government of your nation, to push your ideals and desires on others by force and law (they are the same), is a sword that cuts both ways. Beware. I don't have any problems with the taxes being implented, but I also like this idea you're proposing about being penalised for helping a character with negative security status financially. Big Broker is watching you!
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2009.09.28 14:21:00 - [1025] put where belongs
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.09.28 15:13:00 - [1026] Edited by: Zartanic on 28/09/2009 15:15:43 Originally by: Serge Bastana I recall reading that CCP has made a decision to move away from the sandbox in all areas of the game except 0.0, so perhaps this is one symptom of that. Nothing like an unsourced and unsupported assertion to make a strawman argument. All I know is any negative mechanic, like an ISK cost or other restriction, is a very lazy way to deal with a perceived issue. If CCP want to 'encourage' do it by making other parts of the game more attractive. The tax does not affect me one bit and never would have, I did my own corp the day I came out of Trial, but I do know irritating game elements detracting from the game experience are not smart and rarely work to the extent hoped.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.28 15:18:00 - [1027] Meh, IF the tax stays at 11% it won't be bad. If the rate hikes up significantly then I forsee an explosion of 1-man corps . But this still won't be the "free wardecs" system some of you think it will be.
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.28 16:00:00 - [1028] Edited by: Ms Iustitia on 28/09/2009 16:03:55 sigh, reading and re-reading what soundwave posted really makes it more confusing as to the reasons, though 1 thing is certain, CCP wants all of EVE to hug PVP, which at its present state it pretty dismal. you can wardec just about anyone you choose and the corp or alliance with established resources would certainly win. it keeps me wondering, if the folks in NPC corps will start 1-man corps, what would stop some wannabe pvpers from waging war on them? the cost? don't think so, at the current state, there's already some players hanging out in starting areas on BCs and BSs can-baiting newbies or can flipping in starter systems just for "kicks". as i've said in previous posts, most of the players in NPC corps just want the PVE content of EVE, mostly running missions and mission-mining on the side. although taxing NPC corps is "somewhat" acceptable to me personally, the notion of the reasons behind it sickens me. unrealistic scenario w/in empire? is it not that all players of EVE can use all services or infrastructure of empire? costs or fees depending on standings? and i guess there's no standings lesser than -10.0, is there? well, aside from wardec immunity. now, the funny part, why would you declare war on a player who is of no threat to you or your corp? again, just for "kicks"? how reasonable is that? if CCP really wants to better PVP, correct the loopholes with wardec immunity, there are "supposedly" pvpers hiding in NPC corps that helps 1 side of 2 warring corps with impunity, and those are the folks that needs to be weed out of npc corps, not the casual gamers. and there are ways, positive ways, to do this rather than force everyone out of NPC corps. oh, and against isk farmers/traders (referring to prism x comment)? there are ways also to eradicate them, but definitely not this. oh, almost forgot, if CCP wishes EVE to be an all-PVP platform, they should have done so on the get-go, not advertising it as a "sandbox" game, "do whatever you wish" which made me freakin buy the game and subscribe!!!
Ashina Sito Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.28 16:48:00 - [1029] Originally by: Ms Iustitia oh, almost forgot, if CCP wishes EVE to be an all-PVP platform, they should have done so on the get-go, not advertising it as a "sandbox" game, "do whatever you wish" which made me freakin buy the game and subscribe!!! Eve has been that way since the beginning. I do thing that in the attempt to add more subscribers the "everything is PvP" aspect of Eve was played down. You have to remember, CCP's genesis was when the CEO ganked a couple of guys on a DoAC server and they got to talking. Found out they were all in Iceland and eventually CCP and Eve came form that. Eve was conceived from a gank. It exists to gank. There are many better ways to achieve CCP's goal then this tax but the tax is simple, easy and requires little to no coding. Real fixes require real effort. (that is assuming there is a real problem and something needs to be done.)
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.28 19:08:00 - [1030] Originally by: Serge Bastana I recall reading that CCP has made a decision to move away from the sandbox in all areas of the game except 0.0, so perhaps this is one symptom of that. Asking you to pay for your invincible NPC buddies is less sandboxy c/d?

Tax This	Posted - 2009.09.28 19:53:00 - [1031] The sandbox is a lie! Next they will find a way to tax empire based pvp corps to 'nudge' them into 0.0 for 'real' pvp! GG socialist devs.
Nur Vadenn Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.28 20:13:00 - [1032] Is anyone else concerned at the fact that CCP would apply this 11% tax to try and get people to move to player corporations without addressing the failings of those corporations? It would seem to make sense to me to spend development time on things like corporation tools, recruitment tools, corporation vetting, and the many general disincentives to joining or even looking for a player corporation. Once those failings are addressed then it would seem to make sense to try and clear out the NPC corporations. While I am not too concerned with the 11% tax itself, the application of the tax sets a troubling precedent. It seems to approve of the methods many player corporations seem to follow regarding handling taxes. They tax their members often with no accountability and not audibility. The ISK is simply whisked away. When asked about this the heads of a player corporation can say whatever they like. I mean every corporation SHOULD have a tax! Hell CCP says so; it really makes no difference where that money goes. With ôgoodö player run corporations not much more than a myth to some of us in game this change seems a lot like trying to bring someone elseÆs garbage to our pool. It like CCP felt player corporations needed a crutch to help prop them up. This despite the claims that player run corporations are a flavor of awesome that one must sample to believe, but that all should partake in. --- The Lurker
stoicfaux	Posted - 2009.09.28 20:14:00 - [1033] Originally by: Tax This The sandbox is a lie! Next they will find a way to tax empire based pvp corps to 'nudge' them into 0.0 for 'real' pvp! GG socialist devs. Pfffft, it ain't socialism until I can fully insure T2 and T3 ships, including rigging and modules. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Nietzsche, and PvP"
Drunk Driver Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.09.28 20:21:00 - [1034]
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.28 21:23:00 - [1035] Edited by: Kerfira on 28/09/2009 21:23:36 Originally by: Nur Vadenn Is anyone else concerned at the fact that CCP would apply this 11% tax to try and get people to move to player corporations without addressing the failings of those corporations? Yes.... It HAS been repeatedly posted by a lot of people.... Completely ignored by CCP though, who obviously prefers to remove symptoms, NOT the problem! The tax itself is not the issue as it is easily avoided if you want to. Main issue is CCP's inability to understand their game well enough to actually understand what the problems are.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Decarus Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Twilight Federation	Posted - 2009.09.28 21:26:00 - [1036] Originally by: Kerfira The tax itself is not the issue as it is easily avoided if you want to. Main issue is CCP's inability to understand their game well enough to actually understand what the problems are.... Or... their future plans involve something they know will cause a larger threadnaught than this here? Me thinks you're too trusting and optimistic towards CCP.
Domoso	Posted - 2009.09.28 21:53:00 - [1037] Although I haven't read the entirety of this thread I do see a trend in what I've read in the last few pages. And that is it seems that more people are recognizing this for what it is. It is a poor means to change player behavior by CCP instead of addressing the real problems with PVP.....and that is it's a train wreck. Regardless if you believe NPC member should be taxed or not it should be obvious what CCP is doing and what it is not.
Ariane VoxDei	Posted - 2009.09.28 21:56:00 - [1038] Originally by: Tax This The sandbox is a lie! Next they will find a way to tax empire based pvp corps to 'nudge' them into 0.0 for 'real' pvp! Lets throw a few ideas towards that worthy goal of making the s***choose between carebearing or owning up to what they are doing: no insurance pay if concord, faction/customs police or gate/station-guns is involved. * huge fines on any criminal activity (in hisec). * punitive fees on unsanctioned agression (in hisec) - in addition to the voiding of insurance, that is to say cancelling the insurance contract whether or not the agressor(s) are destroyed. * sec loss for stealing. * sec loss for ninjasalvaging. * But lets be generous, make a system for selling salvaging and looting rights. New profession. * automatic concordokking of NPC neutrals trying to RR, falcon alts etc. and anyone in their gang and their RR-target and anyone in the RR-targets gang. This regardless of it being a valid target (=victim) or not. Lets call it the 'no npc abuse' rule. (lets see CCP Claw topping this one :P) * upping gateguns and stationguns to concord level haxdps. Letting people/criminals loiter at such critical infrastructure as gates and station undock points is highly illogical. * faction police responding to any theft (can flipping) in asteroid belts in highsec. Productive citizens must be protected and the law upheld. * stations guns instapopping any container dropped within 5km of undock point. * gateguns instapopping any container (not wrecks) within 20km of gates. Possibly need to yank that to 22km, but anyway its close to the range needed. * locking gates to negative sec, as opposed to the current regime of aggroing the gate squads. 'get out and stay out'. Extend the limits all the way to 0.1, so anyone with -9.5 or below can only move in 0.0. * Forced ejection to nearest seclevel-system that is appropriate the sec rating. * make sec recovery slower. You opt for a life of crime, then you live with the consequences. Criminal acts have far to light and shortlasting consequences and get ratted up far too soon, only to be brought back down as soon as they are back in. * incurring the wrath of concord should make you FFA for the next 24h, with no sec consequences for anyone chosing to make use of it. * incurring the wrath of faction police should make you FFA, in that factions sovereign space, for the next 24h, with no sec consequences for anyone chosing to make use of it. * corcord and faction police timers should last 24h. The associated station locks as well. Gates should block transit - the only escapes being: 1) warping around for 24h or doing a logoff for 24h. 2) letting yourself get blown up and have cargo+drops be confiscated. * no more 'looking the other way' from concord in hisec warfare. "holy ground". Hisec research-pos would be too safe because of this (manufacturing pos is not a problem), so have to sacrifice a those - offline the labs and give 30 days before forced unachoring. Forbid labs in 0.5 and above. Related pos things as a tradeoff for loss of hisec labs: * allow reactors to be used in hisec (up to 0.7 only). Possibly a new set of 'certified' reactors that live up to safety regulations and have lower grid and cpu cost - but can not be anchored in 0.4 and below. Alchemy seing more use would be a good thing. * new structure: compression factory. Allowed anywhere a tower is allowed and allows Rorqual style ore/ice compression. No fuel costs apart from compression BPO/BPC - you are already paying though POS fuel costs. Guess it could be modelled as a special case of the assembly array - becoming the only thing apart from the Rorq that will allow the use of those blueprints. This array might also improve mining exports from wspace, by easing the logistics burden. Introducing gas compression would also be helpful. * limit capitals to 0.2 and below - making 0.4 and 0.3 a bit less dangerous to operate POS in. * Give lowsec POS a HP bonus (towers and everything) of 30% per sec level. Some may sound unreasonable or strange, but i can assure you that there are good reasons behind all. At least as good as soundwaves ;)
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.28 22:03:00 - [1039] Edited by: Kerfira on 28/09/2009 22:07:08 Originally by: Decarus Me thinks you're too trusting and optimistic towards CCP. I hope so Now, if they'd only nerf high-sec L4 income by 50%, all this faffing around with unimportant taxes will be forgiven! Originally by: Ariane VoxDei Post from WoW player.... YOU have completely not understood what kind of game you're playing. Read my signature for further understanding!!! High-sec is SAFER, not SAFE! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Anndy's Wife	Posted - 2009.09.28 22:29:00 - [1040] Quote: No amount of your complaints will change what is comming. No matter what you feel, CCP feel what your doing is BAD FOR THEIR GAME, and so they are rectifying that, with one of SEVERAL POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS THEY SEE TO FIX THE PROBLEM. As has been quoted before, they are perfectly happy taking a "wait and see approach". If you don't seem to take the hint, they have stated they are prepared to nudge harder. heres a thought, all 400 people in your noob chat channel can band up, form a corp, and you still get your tax free life, and you keep the same people that you hang out with now. No one needs lead the corp, ever, you wont have bills if you don't rent stations. If that life is so special to you, just recreate it in the player corp form CCP intends for you to be in. Why is this so hard? A corp where there are no leaders, no one tells you what to do. Only your not immune any more. Which is what you really all want, obviously, or you'd just do as I suggest, and make one of these threadnaughts for each major NPC corp notifying the population that you intend to open said corp, and word of mouth would spread it. Or you can just admit that what you don't want to give up is your immunity and move on. I think in all this rabble rabble an important post has been missed. THIS post is pretty much it, the end of the discussion.

Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.29 01:41:00 - [1041] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 29/09/2009 01:45:49 Are you pretending that highSec WarDec blackmailers are somehow more deserving than PvE players? That they should be provided with helpless and unwilling victims? They're a fine example of why so many players can't be bothered with EvE combat. Risk-averse gankers, who seek only helpless targets. It's as interesting and instructive to interact with them as it is to battle 0.7 belt rats with a Warrior 1. CCP's message is all too clear: "play our way or mix with the dregs of online gaming". If I wanted to be blsckmailed by scumbags I'd be in a weak player corp already. It isn't pleasant to be find the latest extortionists to set up in EvE are CCP themselves.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2009.09.29 13:00:00 - [1042] look i found a thread
Asuri Kinnes Caldari Adhocracy Incorporated	Posted - 2009.09.29 14:03:00 - [1043] Originally by: Anndy's Wife Quote: No amount of your complaints will change what is comming. No matter what you feel, CCP feel what your doing is BAD FOR THEIR GAME, and so they are rectifying that, with one of SEVERAL POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS THEY SEE TO FIX THE PROBLEM. As has been quoted before, they are perfectly happy taking a "wait and see approach". If you don't seem to take the hint, they have stated they are prepared to nudge harder. heres a thought, all 400 people in your noob chat channel can band up, form a corp, and you still get your tax free life, and you keep the same people that you hang out with now. No one needs lead the corp, ever, you wont have bills if you don't rent stations. If that life is so special to you, just recreate it in the player corp form CCP intends for you to be in. Why is this so hard? A corp where there are no leaders, no one tells you what to do. Only your not immune any more. Which is what you really all want, obviously, or you'd just do as I suggest, and make one of these threadnaughts for each major NPC corp notifying the population that you intend to open said corp, and word of mouth would spread it. Or you can just admit that what you don't want to give up is your immunity and move on. I think in all this rabble rabble an important post has been missed. THIS post is pretty much it, the end of the discussion. That quote only concentrates on people who do want to remain immune. Like PVP alts, 0.0 Alts, Indie/Invention/Manufacturing alts. So, if only 21% of the player base w/over 2M SP aren't in Player Corps - what do the aforementioned alts (who are over 2M SP) do to the %? Lower it significantly I assume. I assume because you see all these threads complaining about how bad 0.0 is at supporting multiple players/system (whether ratting or mining), and I know plenty of people who have indie/inventing/manufacturing alts. So how many people are we really talking here? If your concerned about people "pvp'ing your wallet" (fekkin lol @ that) - they still can, w/impunity! All those alts won't be affected by the tax. Mission-running alts will be effected, but all they have to do to maintain their status-quo, is join a one man corp, set up alt-war'dec corps, and jump back and forth if/when war-dec'd. Which tbqh probably won't happen. Doesn't happen now - whats the point of War-Dec'ing a one-man corp when a) they just jump corps (which, if they leave open with said alt, is NOT an exploit), b) log off for a week and play on another alt/main, c) win, because they actually know how to fight? I don't live in an NPC corp, only while I dropped corps once. So the tax actually means s***-all to me. I just think its a silly, stupid change, that will make nothing better. Won't make empire wars better, won't make low-sec life better, won't assist 0.0 corps with recruitment... Its just another poorly thought out annoyance. Honor is that which you do when no one else is looking.
Esk Esme Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.09.29 14:15:00 - [1044] lol TBH who care's about a small sum of 11% its a small price to pay to avoide war decs im a unsocial bastard and dont like ppl in genrial there are a few exseptions tho ppl iv known for a long time iv moved around a few corps in my time and can tell most ar just full of f4k wits i play were i want how i want when i want so npc corp suits me fine alot the crying over npc corps is from empire war dec pansy's who are camping some noob mission minning corp and sitting there thinking why aint we getting kills not fights most empire griefer's want kills not fight's well here's a clue go to lo-sec flashy red hunting go to 0.0 pick a random 0.0 station each day to hit in other words grow some balls go fight ppl who can fight you back my spelling sux so sue me or pay for english teacher coz i just dnt care lol
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.09.29 14:18:00 - [1045] ITT: people who do not understand the meaning of the word 'sandbox' -- Originally by: Professor Slocombe I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
Mescha	Posted - 2009.09.29 16:52:00 - [1046] The only thing I would say is to give new players a break on the tax. We all want the Eve universe to grow, and should encourage more players to join. I would say give new players a 6 month break in the NPC tax. By this time, they have wrapped their head around the game and are on the path they want to be with some sort of skills to generate income. A NPC Corp. tax right out of the gate discourages newbies. Remember, someone new to this game has a lot to learn right away. Give them some time. These people that are Newbs now will be the future veterans of the game if given a chance.
MIrple	Posted - 2009.09.29 17:15:00 - [1047] Sorry if it has already been suggested but what about making the first npc corp tax at 20% so it forces players to join a corp sooner if they dont like it then the second npc corp will have a tax of 11%.
Grath Telkin Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.09.29 17:18:00 - [1048] Originally by: Mescha We all want the Eve universe to grow, and should encourage more players to join. Honestly, I'd be happier if just about everybody that joined in the past 2 years left the game. When I first started, NPC corps had pretty low populations, Player corps were large, Empire wars were all over the place, and people actually engaged in fights. As the game has grown, and people from softer MMO's have joined, NPC corp populations have skyrocketed, as the soft players sought the immunity those corps provided, so they could play eve in "Single Player Mode" instead of interacting with the universe that is EVE. Now its full of docking game ******s, and people who scream about how PVP is broken (when in fact its probably the most unbroken PVP in MMO history, where a group of 1 day old alts can take down a 5 year old player) while hiding in NPC corps. No thanks if more of this is all we get. Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.29 17:40:00 - [1049] Most of the "PvP" that an EvE rookie sees is just pretend combat. Getting jumped by gankers who have 10 times the fighting power, and no chance of losing. Being ganked is boring for anybody. And ganking is boring for a lot of people. "Classic" EvE PvP looked interesting before I started to play, but the more I learn the less interesting it seems. It's not entirely the game's fault either. Experienced EvE players delight in griefing new players - it's hardly surprising you're not trusted. Make PvP fun (and lower the barriers to entry (which are considerable) and people will do it. The new "Red vs Blue" initiative looks like a possible solution to some of this. Instead of whining about "the good old days" you might ask why you didn't do something similar years ago.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.29 17:58:00 - [1050] Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: Mescha We all want the Eve universe to grow, and should encourage more players to join. Honestly, I'd be happier if just about everybody that joined in the past 2 years left the game. I wouldn't. I've met some great players who have been less than 2 years in the game. Generally they're too busy playing to post here though. Compare with 06ers like Praleon...

Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.29 18:07:00 - [1051] Originally by: Tax This The sandbox is a lie! Next they will find a way to tax empire based pvp corps to 'nudge' them into 0.0 for 'real' pvp! GG socialist devs. Oh good idea! I like it, I'll suggest it in the Assembly and give you credit. I reckon increasing base market taxes to 3.5% will do for a start. That's about 1/3rd to 1/6th the level of "real life" economies, which qualifies as a "nudge" and would go a little way - a very little way - towards covering the cost of that huge protection subsidy you hi-sec guys get.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.29 18:15:00 - [1052] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 29/09/2009 18:18:18 Originally by: Ariane VoxDei * But lets be generous, make a system for selling salvaging and looting rights. New profession. In testing patchontes Quote: Player owned wrecks can now be marked as "Available for all" which prevents CONCORD or criminal repercussions for taking from or destroying free for all wrecks. Originally by: Ariane VoxDei * automatic concordokking of NPC neutrals trying to RR, falcon alts etc. and anyone in their gang and their RR-target and anyone in the RR-targets gang. This regardless of it being a valid target (=victim) or not. Lets call it the 'no npc abuse' rule. (lets see CCP Claw topping this one :P) Great: sit outside Jita 4-4 and RR with a frigate random freighter. Have your buddy looting the subsequent wreck.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.29 18:45:00 - [1053] Quote: Most of the "PvP" that an EvE rookie sees is just pretend combat. Getting jumped by gankers who have 10 times the fighting power, and no chance of losing. Being ganked is boring for anybody. And ganking is boring for a lot of people. You do realize of course that if we pretend that statement has more than a passing aquaintance with fact, the main reason this happens is that the rookie in question is sitting in comfortable isolation in an NPC corp. If he were in a corp of like minded rookies, 30 or so of them would jump in and devestate the more experienced gankers. If he were in a normal corp comprised of a wide variety of experience levels, 15 or so of them would jump in to save the day. Don't take your personal failings and blame the game for them. The mechanics are fine, its the players who define their own level on the food chain. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.29 18:47:00 - [1054] Only 36 pages guys? Eve General, I am dissapoint. Keep the QQnought going!.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.29 19:27:00 - [1055] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Tax This The sandbox is a lie! Next they will find a way to tax empire based pvp corps to 'nudge' them into 0.0 for 'real' pvp! GG socialist devs. Oh good idea! I like it, I'll suggest it in the Assembly and give you credit. I reckon increasing base market taxes to 3.5% will do for a start. That's about 1/3rd to 1/6th the level of "real life" economies, which qualifies as a "nudge" and would go a little way - a very little way - towards covering the cost of that huge protection subsidy you hi-sec guys get. Malc: 1) go and look how VAT tax work. It is a tax on added value. I.e. you get a refund on the tax you paid for the items you brought and pay a tax on the items you sell. So that only the true profit is taxed. It is not possible to apply that in EVE as everyone will be evading the tax with direct exchanges. 2) why don't you put aside a bit your hate for mission runners and think what you write? The "huge protection subsidy" work for everyone, indifferently if he is in a player corp or not. So if that is the reason, you should apply the 11% tax to every activity in high sec, independently if you are in a player or NPC corp.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.29 19:32:00 - [1056] Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: Most of the "PvP" that an EvE rookie sees is just pretend combat. Getting jumped by gankers who have 10 times the fighting power, and no chance of losing. Being ganked is boring for anybody. And ganking is boring for a lot of people. You do realize of course that if we pretend that statement has more than a passing aquaintance with fact, the main reason this happens is that the rookie in question is sitting in comfortable isolation in an NPC corp. If he were in a corp of like minded rookies, 30 or so of them would jump in and devestate the more experienced gankers. If he were in a normal corp comprised of a wide variety of experience levels, 15 or so of them would jump in to save the day. Don't take your personal failings and blame the game for them. The mechanics are fine, its the players who define their own level on the food chain. Fables. The gankers aren't stupid (at least not too much) and select targets with that will not present any level of danger, so they will not attack a corporation with enough people to put up a 30 to 1 (or even a 5 to 1) fight.
Bjron	Posted - 2009.09.29 19:42:00 - [1057] Yo, Eve general, i'm happy for you, and imma let you finish, but Npc corp's and carebears have the best tears of all time! ALL TIME!
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.29 19:48:00 - [1058] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 29/09/2009 19:49:13 @Ranger 1 Are you suggesting that scenario is a common response to ganking? Or an occasional but exceptional response? Or a pleasant fantasy, invented to make gankers feel like combat PvPers? I'd suggest it's the third one. Another of these EvE stories which have been fabricated to make players feel good about their behavior. I don't really understand the guilt. Ganking is game-legal, and fair fights are not required or expected in EvE. And surely the gankers have no self-respect left to lose?
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.29 19:52:00 - [1059] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 29/09/2009 19:52:15 Quote: The gankers aren't stupid (at least not too much) and select targets with that will not present any level of danger, so they will not attack a corporation with enough people to put up a 30 to 1 (or even a 5 to 1) fight. Okay, I'll play along. If what you say is true, then the problem is solved eh? Just get a group together before you make your corp and you won't need the war dec immunity, and can have your 0% tax rate. Masterful solution to the problem, I wish CCP had thought of it. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.29 20:11:00 - [1060] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Tax This The sandbox is a lie! Next they will find a way to tax empire based pvp corps to 'nudge' them into 0.0 for 'real' pvp! GG socialist devs. Oh good idea! I like it, I'll suggest it in the Assembly and give you credit. I reckon increasing base market taxes to 3.5% will do for a start. That's about 1/3rd to 1/6th the level of "real life" economies, which qualifies as a "nudge" and would go a little way - a very little way - towards covering the cost of that huge protection subsidy you hi-sec guys get. Malc: 1) go and look how VAT tax work. It is a tax on added value. Ah, so you're saying only the miners and salvagers, inventors and researchers should pay it, and not the guys who make T1 ships & modules? Yeah, OK, I'm down with that.

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.29 20:20:00 - [1061] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 29/09/2009 20:25:40 Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 29/09/2009 19:52:15 Quote: The gankers aren't stupid (at least not too much) and select targets with that will not present any level of danger, so they will not attack a corporation with enough people to put up a 30 to 1 (or even a 5 to 1) fight. Okay, I'll play along. If what you say is true, then the problem is solved eh? Just get a group together before you make your corp and you won't need the war dec immunity, and can have your 0% tax rate. Masterful solution to the problem, I wish CCP had thought of it. Get 50 noob friends along. Get ganked by 20 man corp with people in t2 ships and some year of skills. The ganker are still avoiding 5:1 odd and killing plenty of noobs. You are playing stupid or you are it? Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Tax This The sandbox is a lie! Next they will find a way to tax empire based pvp corps to 'nudge' them into 0.0 for 'real' pvp! GG socialist devs. Oh good idea! I like it, I'll suggest it in the Assembly and give you credit. I reckon increasing base market taxes to 3.5% will do for a start. That's about 1/3rd to 1/6th the level of "real life" economies, which qualifies as a "nudge" and would go a little way - a very little way - towards covering the cost of that huge protection subsidy you hi-sec guys get. Malc: 1) go and look how VAT tax work. It is a tax on added value. Ah, so you're saying only the miners and salvagers, inventors and researchers should pay it, and not the guys who make T1 ships & modules? Yeah, OK, I'm down with that. I see you have not jet got how the tax work. As I am not apparently a good at explaining it to you, I suggest you read some text about it. It apply on what you sell after you have included all the production costs. For a miner production costs include all the ships purchases, crystals and so on. For a shipbuilder all the mineral purchases, BPO, industry fees and so on. It will hit most mission runners as they have low activity costs (unless they purchase a lot of faction items). But it is still perfectly avoidable in EVE doing direct trades.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.29 20:21:00 - [1062] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 29/09/2009 20:22:49 Originally by: Gsptlsnz Are you suggesting that scenario is a common response to ganking? Or an occasional but exceptional response? Or a pleasant fantasy, invented to make gankers feel like combat PvPers? I would suggest to stop living in isolation. This very scenario plays out multiple times every day in EVE. Do a bit of homework. I created a corp shortly after starting EVE and moved to Aridia. My corp became the cornerstone of an informal alliance of corporations call the RAF (Ranger Alliance Fleet). We then proceded to cleanse the Arida region of pirate and gank organizations comprised of more experienced players than the bulk of our membership. On one occasion we turned back a suprise raid by Burn Eden (then a newish organization) and prevented them from launching a surprise attack on Fountain space. In recognition of this, and our general success in stabilizing the region, we were invited to become part of the Fountain Alliance, and I eventually found myself on the ruling council. Fantasy indeed.... ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.29 20:27:00 - [1063] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 29/09/2009 20:22:49 Originally by: Gsptlsnz Are you suggesting that scenario is a common response to ganking? Or an occasional but exceptional response? Or a pleasant fantasy, invented to make gankers feel like combat PvPers? I would suggest to stop living in isolation. This very scenario plays out multiple times every day in EVE. Do a bit of homework. I created a corp shortly after starting EVE and moved to Aridia. My corp became the cornerstone of an informal alliance of corporations call the RAF (Ranger Alliance Fleet). We then proceded to cleanse the Arida region of pirate and gank organizations comprised of more experienced players than the bulk of our membership. On one occasion we turned back a suprise raid by Burn Eden (then a newish organization) and prevented them from launching a surprise attack on Fountain space. In recognition of this, and our general success in stabilizing the region, we were invited to become part of the Fountain Alliance, and I eventually found myself on the ruling council. Fantasy indeed.... Stop living in the past.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.29 20:32:00 - [1064] Originally by: Venkul Mul Get 50 noob friends along. Get ganked by 20 man corp with people in t2 ships and some year of skills. The ganker are still avoiding 5:1 odd and killing plenty of noobs. You are playing stupid or you are it? [/quote Let me educate you. If you have 50 week old characters in even T1 frigates, and attack an experienced group of 20 players in T2 vessels, you will kill a far far higher amount of isk than they will. Apparently you have missed the organized roams from Scrap Heap Challenge, or Eve University, or Agony Unleashed that do these things as a training excercise (often deep into 0.0) on a regular basis for new players. I'm not going to call you stupid, but I will say you lack experience. Stop selling yourself, and all new players in EVE, short. Your only limitations are what you impose upon yourself. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.29 20:39:00 - [1065] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Venkul Mul Get 50 noob friends along. Get ganked by 20 man corp with people in t2 ships and some year of skills. The ganker are still avoiding 5:1 odd and killing plenty of noobs. You are playing stupid or you are it? [/quote Let me educate you. If you have 50 week old characters in even T1 frigates, and attack an experienced group of 20 players in T2 vessels, you will kill a far far higher amount of isk than they will. Apparently you have missed the organized roams from Scrap Heap Challenge, or Eve University, or Agony Unleashed that do these things as a training excercise (often deep into 0.0) on a regular basis for new players. I'm not going to call you stupid, but I will say you lack experience. Stop selling yourself, and all new players in EVE, short. Your only limitations are what you impose upon yourself. Week old character. Call them what really are: Months (plural) old characters with experienced (years) old characters directing them. Way different from a new corp made by new characters.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.29 20:40:00 - [1066] Quote: Stop living in the past. Excuse me? You said what I pointed out was unrealistic. I gave you a factual example from my own experience (as opposed to the thousands of examples I could have listed). I guess that was the best reply you could come up with, considering your arguments were shot down in flames eh? Perhaps if you spent less time trying to blame your failure to succeed in a player corp on the game, and actually listened when people tried to help you, you find yourself having a much deeper and more enjoyable gaming experience than you are now. Then again, perhaps your attitude explains it all. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.29 20:49:00 - [1067] Quote: Months (plural) old characters with experienced (years) old characters directing them. I presume you were attempting to make a point. You failed. If you take any 50 < month old characters, and even one of them comes up with the bright idea of saying "lets focus fire on one target" all on their own, they will kill ships. And they will inflict FAR more damage than they take in isk. Simple fact. Sorry you can't deal with it. Are you saying new players are too stupid to do that? Newsflash, they aren't. Again, quit selling new players short. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.29 20:53:00 - [1068] Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: Stop living in the past. Excuse me? You said what I pointed out was unrealistic. I gave you a factual example from my own experience (as opposed to the thousands of examples I could have listed). I guess that was the best reply you could come up with, considering your arguments were shot down in flames eh? Perhaps if you spent less time trying to blame your failure to succeed in a player corp on the game, and actually listened when people tried to help you, you find yourself having a much deeper and more enjoyable gaming experience than you are now. Then again, perhaps your attitude explains it all. 1) Read the rest of the post. (Yes, probably it was added after you cited it) 2) as already pointed to you, I am in a player corp and I have been in one for the greater part of my EVE life. 3) my hig sec wars have all ended well for me. 0.0 with an alt I was on the losing (BOB) side in Delve. So o much.
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.29 21:25:00 - [1069] Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: Stop living in the past. Excuse me? You said what I pointed out was unrealistic. I gave you a factual example from my own experience (as opposed to the thousands of examples I could have listed). I guess that was the best reply you could come up with, considering your arguments were shot down in flames eh? Perhaps if you spent less time trying to blame your failure to succeed in a player corp on the game, and actually listened when people tried to help you, you find yourself having a much deeper and more enjoyable gaming experience than you are now. Then again, perhaps your attitude explains it all. actually, i have to agree with you, if people just wills it, they may succeed eventually in EVE, BUT, as i've said over and over, a few plays EVE for the PVE content, we, in any discussion should live with that, and that you or CCP should be able to accept the fact that there are PVE players of EVE who do not wish to take part or can't take part in the PVP content of EVE due mainly of game times/schedules or they just want some few stress-free fun time with themselves. NPC Corps have a stress-free environment, the chat is buzzing with everything, but you are not obligated to respond to anything, whereas, in a player corp, there are certain obligations or functions or regulations one must need to adhere to. and i don't really think there's a player corp atm that don't have objectives or aims. and i don't think PVErs are endangering the PVP content of EVE in any ways, those that try to use the loopholes of wardec immunity of NPC Corps are wannabe PvPers hiding in NPC Corps, and i don't think they're casual players by any means. and to those saying that we are crying about the tax, frankly, our contention is not the 11% tax, its the notion that it is used as a tool to "encourage" mission runners out of NPC corps, its not everyone being forced out, JUST MISSION RUNNERS!
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.29 21:38:00 - [1070] My posts are of neccessity limited, I'm sorry I can't quote specific lines. Bear with me. How many T2 ships were flown against us? At its height the majority were T2 vessels (plenty of ceptors) and battleships. I had a lot of people in those corps that were too new to fly either. T2 Modules? Whatever was available. Our opponents tended to equip the best available for combat. Our strength was teamwork. Years of difference in skill? It varied of course, but a lot of our pilots were brand new to the game. Our opponents tended to be a LOT of wannabe pirate corps that have since died, with some exceptions like Beach Boys, among others. I won't comment on how things ended for you in Delve. If you looked at my history, you know what I could say. No need to lower the bar. I think, perhaps, you have forgotten your roots. Somehow we went from a scenario of 10 typical gankers at a gate camp vs 30 or so newish players to you trying to grief them. Interesting. How far do we want to distort this until its workable for your argument? 30 one day old players in noob ships vs a Titan? ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.

Christina Bamar Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.09.29 22:46:00 - [1071] Originally by: Venkul Mul Week old character. Call them what really are: Months (plural) old characters with experienced (years) old characters directing them. Way different from a new corp made by new characters. You'd be surprised how quickly someone can get competent in PvP. I've known 2 month old players who are more knowledgeable than 2 year old players. It simply depends on how easily you take to it, and how motivated you are. CEO, Agony Unleashed
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.30 00:10:00 - [1072] Originally by: Christina Bamar Originally by: Venkul Mul Week old character. Call them what really are: Months (plural) old characters with experienced (years) old characters directing them. Way different from a new corp made by new characters. You'd be surprised how quickly someone can get competent in PvP. I've known 2 month old players who are more knowledgeable than 2 year old players. It simply depends on how easily you take to it, and how motivated you are. yeah, but for a new player to PvP, he'll need to do the following: the first toon will be somewhat balanced to do missions and/or mining runs and stock up some isk, ships and modules in preparation for PvP, i don't think any player would start doing PvP on day one coz you'd be flat broke pretty easily. mostly, an alt or another account is established to train solely for combat and that would be the PvP toon... so again, its the preparation that takes time, unless you'll have a good isk backing from a corp, and i gather that good corps now requires a minimum amount of sp before you're even considered for membership.
Malphilos	Posted - 2009.09.30 04:30:00 - [1073] Originally by: Ranger 1 I created a corp shortly after starting EVE and moved to Aridia. My corp became the cornerstone of an informal alliance of corporations call the RAF (Ranger Alliance Fleet). We then proceded to cleanse the Arida region .... ...and then I tied an onion on to my belt, it was the style at the time, and headed down to the telegraph ofice to call the posse.
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.30 04:38:00 - [1074] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 30/09/2009 04:39:17 @Ranger 1 You started by claiming that rookies can easily supress gankers because they can reliably and easily assemble a large (30 /lol) group of rookies and exact revenge on the gankers. It would be nice if rookies were gank-proof. But your fabricated scenarios don't make it so. Though I must to admit that your flights of fancy have derailed the thread rather effectively. Back on track: much of the combat PvP rookies are exposed to is just boring. There are other powerful disincentives to combat (low skills; low income; implants; irrelevance of typical player Corps; the hostility and dishonesty of established players). People would try a lot harder to get into combat PvP if it looked like fun. If it doesn't they leave quickly, or find another path. HighSec mission running is a common choice, as it offers enough income to get established in the game, and hence to eventually gain control of of your EvE-destiny. The only issue with mission running has been the general hostility of high-SP players, but since you earn that just by logging on, it can be ignored. With this stupid tax CCP has decided to add themselves to the already excessive pool of griefers in the game. It seems we may not choose our own paths and timing after all. CCP has decreed that one form of peaceful economic development is unacceptable. So we will be economically penalized, or we will be subjected to the most tedious of all forms of pretend-PvP in EvE: highSec wardec gankers. If combat PvP was fun and affordable, people would do more of it. If player Corps were easy to find, fun, and useful, more people would join them.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience New Eden Hardware Emporium	Posted - 2009.09.30 05:42:00 - [1075] Originally by: Gsptlsnz Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 30/09/2009 04:39:17 If combat PvP was fun and affordable, people would do more of it. If player Corps were easy to find, fun, and useful, more people would join them. Erm, it can be affordable - don't fly what you can't afford to replace. Player corps are easier to find now check the ingame recruitment screen use the filters to select your ideal corp. Most corps I'm sure are fun and I'm not sure what you mean by 'useful', but it's generally a good idea to bring an open mind and a willingness to listen and indeed share experiences as well as testing the theories out in practice. With the advent of Dominion approaching the line between Combat pilots and Industrial/Science/Traders etc will be even more blurred than they are now and at the moment it can be quite bad. I think people forget that you don't need to have a character that can fill just one role, you CAN have a shield tanking pimped out Drake, or a cyno pilot AND (during the quiet time) remotely start a few invention jobs, place buy orders, adjust sell orders etc. You are not a Class - you are a demi-god please lets start acting as an immortal and get stuck in with everything eve has to offer. As for the npc corp tax - 11% isn't going to mean a lot to a lot of people - if you're worried about the 11% npc tax rate, I wonder how quickly the average player run corp tax rate will rise :D Ours has been at ten percent for a long time, it's managable to live without, not everything is subjected to tax anyway and there's a pretty good threshold before it even kicks in anyway. For so long player corps has had ISK sinks directed at them, I'm sure at one time you got an office in the station you created your corp, now you don't, which is measly. In fact I think a corp SHOULD include the cost of a office in the station you create it in (of course you could move your HQ elsewhere and close the old HQ office down) nothing wrong with that at all. I hope Office space in Empire will be expanded IF the number of corporations is expected to rise suddenly. Eve-online Industrial Organiser thread t1 & t2 batch manufacturing
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.30 05:48:00 - [1076] Quote: You started by claiming that rookies can easily supress gankers because they can reliably and easily assemble a large (30 /lol) group of rookies and exact revenge on the gankers. It would be nice if rookies were gank-proof. But your fabricated scenarios don't make it so. Actually, it is quite easy to put together a group of 30 rookies. Hundreds of corps have done it, my old corp included, when this character was only a few of weeks old. The question is (apparently) why do you think its hard? Anyone can (and do) manage this very feat every day in EVE. It's easy. As for the 30 vs 10 bit being a "fabricated scenario", heh, you need to get out more. I can't tell you how many times I have seen this very thing happen (much to my amusement). And no, rookies aren't gank proof. Nobody is, regardless of player experience. The difference is that even a rookie can easily replace a T1 frigate by hitting a couple of belts. Even if the entire group is killed in the end the rookies have lost a few mil per person at most, while the gankers would typically lose what, a couple of hundred mil if they lose even one HAC and its kit. In the scenario presented, of jumping through into a gate camp, those 30 noobs have pretty good odds of taking out more than one opponent. More importantly, win or lose by any reckoning, all involved got some enjoyment out of the encounter. If the encounter even takes place of course. There are those in this thread who stoutly maintain that gankers wouldn't go after a group of that size to begin with. I don't believe that, but if it were true then the issue of harassment war decs is a non-issue... which would be "problem solved" and a win for your side. Quote: Back on track: much of the combat PvP rookies are exposed to is just boring. There are other powerful disincentives to combat (low skills; low income; implants; irrelevance of typical player Corps; the hostility and dishonesty of established players). People would try a lot harder to get into combat PvP if it looked like fun. If it doesn't they leave quickly, or find another path. HighSec mission running is a common choice, as it offers enough income to get established in the game, and hence to eventually gain control of of your EvE-destiny. 1: High Sec mission running and PVP activities are NOT mutually exclusive. 2: PVP rookies usually end up with the role of tackler, which is one of the most exciting roles in combat. 3: If you have low skills, its easy to be a tackler in a few days (particularly with the improvements to character generation). 4: If you have low income frigates are dirt cheap and a good corp will help you become more financially stable. 5: If you have implants then fly a clone that doesn't have implants into combat... jump clones are easy to acquire and (again) your corp can help you. 6: If you encounter a hostile or dishonest corp environment move to another corp... there are literally hundreds that are neither hostile nor dishonest to their members. 7: Entering a player corp does not necessarily mean that you "must" PVP. Many corps have their established industrial group that rarely, if ever, indulge in corporate PVP activities. This is often true of corps based in any security level. Quote: If combat PvP was fun and affordable, people would do more of it. You see, that's the thing. PvP is fun, and unless you break the golden rule of not flying anything you can't comfortably afford to lose it can be dirt cheap. That is why so many people in game DO engage in combat in some fashion. Even if only in a frig tournament hosted by their corp. Quote: If player Corps were easy to find, fun, and useful, more people would join them. Actually, the majority of people in this game do join player corps, find them with very little trouble, have fun in them, and find them extremely useful (read "easier to make money in than solo"). Sorry to burst your bubble. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.30 05:59:00 - [1077] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 30/09/2009 06:00:05 Originally by: Malphilos Originally by: Ranger 1 I created a corp shortly after starting EVE and moved to Aridia. My corp became the cornerstone of an informal alliance of corporations call the RAF (Ranger Alliance Fleet). We then proceded to cleanse the Arida region .... ...and then I tied an onion on to my belt, it was the style at the time, and headed down to the telegraph ofice to call the posse. Actually, at the time, we didn't have onions yet. We were still quite excited about this newly invented thing called dirt. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.30 06:04:00 - [1078] JumpClones: Standings 8 for a Corp in suitable location. I'll have enough to be useful abut the time I get my Dreadnaught skills. Without JumpClones, PvP is going to cost you approximately 2 atribute points on each skills (the difference between easily replaceable and ruinously expensive implants. With Jumpclones it costs rookies around 5% of their training speed per PvP day. Corps: two threads open on page one of ths forum. It's easy to find a bad Corp, very difficult to find one that suiuts you. Trust (or rather, the impossibility of trust) is a factor The 11% tax is not game-breaking in itself. The threat to increase it until we do exactly what the griefers at CCP matters a lot more. Lines are being drawn in the sand(box).
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.30 06:57:00 - [1079] ok, to those "ayes" for the taxation, could you explain or reiterate the advantages of such a "fix"? again, have read and re-read soundwave's post, and its quiet contradicting and never to the point. 1) it says that NPC Corps are just temporary haven (supposedly), yet the tax will only hit mission runners, not the miners, nor industry-based toons. will someone explain why? 2) "unrealistic scenario" in empire, but wait, all empire infrastructure can be used by all players, unless of course one's standing is less than -10.00, which by the way will never happen. this also needs explaining. 3) now war immunity, guess its a pretty good advantage to PVE players, but wait, why is it deemed necessary to declare or to be able to declare war on PVE solo players? are they perceived threats? 4) "Hopefully, this will let player corporations compete on equal footing with NPC corporations."? equal footing? income? nullsec have all the goodies in terms of minerals and ratting, is it not? highsec corps do band together in exploration sites (mining) and wormholes. anyone care to elaborate? and most of us, "ayes" and "nays", have agreed that 11% would not readily have such impact as perceived, so, i'm asking, what's the exact validity of the said "fix"? and again, what is being "balanced" here? and please, refrain from comparing and thinking that what is years ago will happen "as is" today, i'm quiet familiar how MMOs evolve with respect to the human nature, if the server is just recently, everyone seems to care about everyone else, cause everyone tends to learn amongst themselves, and everyone tends to know everyone as well, then it evolves into being distant and being distrustful, mainly due to competition.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience New Eden Hardware Emporium	Posted - 2009.09.30 07:45:00 - [1080] Interesting reading and good questions. For me, I'm a yay man, but before I explain my own reasons for thinking it's a great idea, I want to attempt to answer your questions. Originally by: Ms Iustitia ok, to those "ayes" for the taxation, could you explain or reiterate the advantages of such a "fix"? again, have read and re-read soundwave's post, and its quiet contradicting and never to the point. 1) it says that NPC Corps are just temporary haven (supposedly), yet the tax will only hit mission runners, not the miners, nor industry-based toons. will someone explain why? Miners get taxed via both the we-take tax AND if they sell the minerals on also sales tax/broker fees. Industry based characters are amongst the highest taxed, in or out of a player run corp. Quote: 2) "unrealistic scenario" in empire, but wait, all empire infrastructure can be used by all players, unless of course one's standing is less than -10.00, which by the way will never happen. this also needs explaining. In Role Play Terms, which the phrase "unrealistic scenario" is alluding to, there's lots of things a pod pilot pays for without it being itemised, from memory; there are crew (don't let anyone tell you otherwise), npc docking fees, replenishing of the camera drones (great article go read it), feeding of all those janitors, exotic dancers and of course the old woman who polishes your Head In A Jar collection too. I may have been flippant in the previous paragraph but you have to see it from a role play perspective. Quote: 3) now war immunity, guess its a pretty good advantage to PVE players, but wait, why is it deemed necessary to declare or to be able to declare war on PVE solo players? are they perceived threats? I view very little distinction between a combat pilot and one that grinds level 4 missions up while watching a movie or reading a book. And Wars aren't just conducted for combat there COULD be a real economic reason. Missions are always more interesting when done as a group but as you specified pve solo players then are they a threat? Nope they're a target of opportunity, or a trap waiting to be sprung. Quote: 4) "Hopefully, this will let player corporations compete on equal footing with NPC corporations."? equal footing? income? nullsec have all the goodies in terms of minerals and ratting, is it not? highsec corps do band together in exploration sites (mining) and wormholes. anyone care to elaborate? Well now when the npc corp tax hits even if it's 11% or 15% I put it to you that joining an active and like minded corp within your own area AND operating in the same time zone as yourself you'll be better off isk wise. A smaller share of a bigger pie is even tastier than trying to do it all by yourself, AND you get to share in the history of Eve. Where would the Doctor be without his assistant? Talking to himself as he dribbles about Daleks that can fly while sitting in a retirement home on the coast no doubt. It's a sad state of affairs and it leads me nicely in to my final paragraph. I said I would tell you why I'm a "aye" man, so here goes, following on with the analogy of Doctor Who living out his final millenium in a retirement home on the coast with no companion to share an adventure with, it's the same reasons that Eve is a lot more than internet spaceships. The adventure is told BECAUSE of the companion, even if it happened without one wouldn't make MUCH difference except that link would be missing and any viewer may not 'get' the alien that is the Doctor and why he's doing what he does. The human companion provides an anchor point to 'reality', much the same way that a well - or even a moderately - run corporation can provide, so what is you're REALLY scared of, because your playing an online multi-player game solo or at least with as few ties as possible, so does the fear of rejection stop you from applying for corps? Eve-online Industrial Organiser thread t1 & t2 batch manufacturing

Poz McAIDS	Posted - 2009.09.30 08:57:00 - [1081] I run a computer shop, and we all play eve, this morning we were discussing this. We came to a sort of conclusion that this could be a staggered tax to greater effect. Tax ppl at less than 10m sp @ 10% 20m sp - 20% 30m sp - 30% and so on, that way the more experienced you are the more there is a nudge to get you away from the noob corp. There really is no reason for a 40m sp pilot with a 15billion isk sihp to be in a noob corp. I also agree that the corp chat in the noob corps is just horrible scamming all the time, so we'd not be losing anything there.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.30 09:20:00 - [1082] Edited by: Kerfira on 30/09/2009 09:20:42 Originally by: Poz McAIDS Tax ppl at less than 10m sp @ 10% 20m sp - 20% 30m sp - 30% and so on, that way the more experienced you are the more there is a nudge to get you away from the noob corp. So you'll just force those players into easily disbanded 1-man corp? Explain why this is a benefit to the game? They'll still have the same effective immunity, but now have NO social interaction in the game. [ironic]Great idea![/ironic] Originally by: Poz McAIDS There really is no reason for a 40m sp pilot with a 15billion isk sihp to be in a noob corp. Actually, there are plenty of reasons. Quite a few experienced players LIKE helping the new players coming into the game, and the NPC corp are the place to be for that. Other players don't want to participate in PvP, which is perfectly fine. Like it or not, EVE has lots of players that are NOT in the game to PvP. It's not what they enjoy! I'm not one of them, but I am able to see their point of view. What would you say if 'the carebears' were in charge of CCP and a ruling came down that forced you to pay for your opponents ship, cargo, implants and clone when you blew him up? Would that be OK? Players of ALL types bring money to CCP to help develop the game we all like. Don't be so eager to force them out.... Originally by: Poz McAIDS I also agree that the corp chat in the noob corps is just horrible scamming all the time, so we'd not be losing anything there. You've CLEARLY not been in NPC corp chat lately! Most of them are great! Always lots of people to chat to (in contrast to most small-medium corp), always new people coming in (in contrast to most small-medium corp), plenty of help for new people etc. There's little scamming going on, since once it happens plenty of people jump on the offender and advises newbies not to go for it.... ISK-sellers try once in a while, but the noobs gets adviced how the 'block' option works. Note that I've got 2 mains in 0.0 corp, and 2 moneymakers in NPC corp. I can see both sides of the story, and contrary to you I can accept that some people might not want to play EVE 'my way'.... Please get over your disease that 'There is only one way to play EVE... MY way!'... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.30 10:11:00 - [1083] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Tax This The sandbox is a lie! Next they will find a way to tax empire based pvp corps to 'nudge' them into 0.0 for 'real' pvp! GG socialist devs. Oh good idea! I like it, I'll suggest it in the Assembly and give you credit. I reckon increasing base market taxes to 3.5% will do for a start. That's about 1/3rd to 1/6th the level of "real life" economies, which qualifies as a "nudge" and would go a little way - a very little way - towards covering the cost of that huge protection subsidy you hi-sec guys get. Malc: 1) go and look how VAT tax work. It is a tax on added value. I.e. you get a refund on the tax you paid for the items you brought and pay a tax on the items you sell. So that only the true profit is taxed. It is not possible to apply that in EVE as everyone will be evading the tax with direct exchanges. 2) why don't you put aside a bit your hate for mission runners and think what you write? The "huge protection subsidy" work for everyone, indifferently if he is in a player corp or not. So if that is the reason, you should apply the 11% tax to every activity in high sec, independently if you are in a player or NPC corp. Yes, good plan. But a transaction tax would be better. Dont compare it to VAT; compare it to the sales tax that countries like New Zealnd have instead of income tax. As for direct exchanges... LOL. Are you seriously saying that if there is a 3.5% base transaction tax that people will only sell stuff with direct exchanges? If so... no, you can be that stupid. Think about it for a bit.
Mikayla Grey Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.30 10:41:00 - [1084] Originally by: Gsptlsnz JumpClones: Standings 8 for a Corp in suitable location. I'll have enough of them to be useful at about the time I get my Dreadnaught skills. It dont take long to get standings 8 in a random corp. The location dont matter. Quote: Without JumpClones, PvP is going to cost approximately 2 points on each attribute (the difference between easily replaceable and ruinously expensive implants). With Jumpclones it costs rookies around 5% of their training speed per PvP day. It's hardly surprising some players choose to get the skills for their Battleship (and appropriate modules) a week or two earlier instead. If you are not in 0.0 you dont get podded. (You dont need much pvp experience to figure this out). Quote: Ship cost and efficiency: if I face the average EvE PvPer one on one (/lol), and we're each in a ship that cost 20 minutes grinding, fitted according to our skills, how is the fight going to go? Hmmm - one of us will be in a ship that can be shredded by a T2 scout drone. The other might well be in a ship with 4 times the fighting power. Eve is not about lol honor duelz. With a couple of noobs in cheap as chips t1 frigs/cruisers you can blow up hacs etc costing hundreds of millions at close to zero cost to yourself (Hint platinum insurance and cheap mods). Quote: In fact the only normal role available to a rookie is cannon-fodder (tackling). I would do it gladly if I was in a 0.0 territory-holding Corp. Without such a purpose it looks really boring. Its actually very fun and costs you little to nothing in terms of isk. You can probably even get free t1 frigs from your corp to tackle with. The tackle role is essential to getting kills. Quote: In fact there's been a major change recently - the player initiative "Red vs Blue". It's still not a simple decision though, due to the podKill/implant issue. Learn to avoid podding in one easy step : spamm warp to button once you hit structure. Quote: Corps: two threads open on page one of ths forum. Bottom line: it's easy to find a bad Corp, very difficult to find one that suits you. Trust (or rather, the impossibility of trust) is a factor Unless you expect a corp with a great ship replacement program etc where you get everything for free and dont lift a finger to help to make it so it isnt hard at all to find a good corp. Keep your eyes and ears open in the systems you are flying in. Quote: Oppressive taxation: The 11% tax is not game-breaking in itself. The threat to increase it until we do exactly what the griefers at CCP matters a lot more. Lines are being drawn in the sand(box). With a subscription model, you need to trust your supplier. This tax has me wondering if CCP has handed design control over to non-gamer beanCounters who can't distinguish between corelation and causation. Sorry you cant live in a bubble amd have to join the others in the sandbox. Quote: One theory for all these outlandish claims by rich, high-SP players is that "once upom a time" EvE was a much more interesting and playable game than current experience suggests. The other, which fits the facts without requiring hallucenogenic assistance, is that the people providing this rose-tinted advice and guidance are exactly as friendly, reliable, and trustworthy as everyone else we interact with ingame. Take off tinfoil hat and learn to play the game.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2009.09.30 12:20:00 - [1085] cornflakes
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.09.30 12:55:00 - [1086] Originally by: Mikayla Grey Unless you expect a corp with a great ship replacement program etc where you get everything for free and dont lift a finger to help to make it so it isnt hard at all to find a good corp. Keep your eyes and ears open in the systems you are flying in. I'll bet you think you're a contributor to a good corp. Irony abounds. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.30 13:47:00 - [1087] Originally by: Mikayla Grey If you are not in 0.0 you dont get podded. (You dont need much pvp experience to figure this out). <....> Learn to avoid podding in one easy step : spam warp to button once you hit structure. I seen this kind of comment before. I received it as advice before I met my first gankers, and it's been used to explain away what happened. It doesnt match my experience. See the last paragraph of my post.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.30 14:43:00 - [1088] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 30/09/2009 14:43:51 On the issue of jump clones being difficult to get... wat? There are any number of people you can contact through this forum that provide a jump clone aquisition service for a small fee. Or, interestingly enough, if you join a corp that has standings already you can get them regardless of your own. Or, if you join a corp that owns a Mothership they can cook one up for you at any time. I believe Roquals can do this as well. On the matter of getting podded in empire, while it is possible to have lag issues and get popped on occassion, it really is a rarity. And if you are in a cheaply implanted (if at all) clone, who cares anyway? It still amazes me how hard some people work to manufacture reasons to justify to themselves why they can not possibly play the majority of the game they are paying for. It is somewhat like playing a race game and only fooling around with customizing the cars, because if you actually raced them you might dent the fender. True, you can do that. Just don't be surprised that the game design caters to the people that are actually racing, and when most folks tell you that you are missing the point. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.30 15:51:00 - [1089] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 30/09/2009 14:43:51 On the issue of jump clones being difficult to get... wat? There are any number of people you can contact through this forum that provide a jump clone aquisition service for a small fee. Or, interestingly enough, if you join a corp that has standings already you can get them regardless of your own. Or, if you join a corp that owns a Mothership they can cook one up for you at any time. I believe Roquals can do this as well. On the matter of getting podded in empire, while it is possible to have lag issues and get popped on occassion, it really is a rarity. And if you are in a cheaply implanted (if at all) clone, who cares anyway? It still amazes me how hard some people work to manufacture reasons to justify to themselves why they can not possibly play the majority of the game they are paying for. It is somewhat like playing a race game and only fooling around with customizing the cars, because if you actually raced them you might dent the fender. True, you can do that. Just don't be surprised that the game design caters to the people that are actually racing, and when most folks tell you that you are missing the point. i have to disagree, your analogy of Eve akin to a "race game" is somewhat wrong, you see, EVE has PVE and PVP content, so, it won't just be "fooling" if you will pursue the PVE content only, as of a "Race Game", its just a race, but certainly, there are events that cater car hobbyists who'll love racing their cars and just merely showing them off in one venue. some Car Shows do that, then again, you're just putting points to discredit an issue, try again.
Awesome Possum Imperium Signal Corps	Posted - 2009.09.30 15:56:00 - [1090] People that whine about clones really should learn to google. Free Jump Clones ♥ Wreck Disposal Services

Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.30 16:19:00 - [1091] Why would I have to try again? The racing game analogy has a non-competative aspect (fine tuning your vehicle) and a competetive aspect (racing the car). The point of the first aspect is to facilitate the second. The racing is the main point of the game. And let me repeat that phrase "racing game"... as opposed to a car show. The point of a car show is to show off your vehicle and be judged on various criteria. The point of a race is to get around the track faster than your competition. If you show up to compete in a race, but never start the engine and keep rambling on about how much prettier your car is than the other competitors, you are going to have people looking at you askance. In this case, it is your example that is flawed. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.30 16:58:00 - [1092] Edited by: Ms Iustitia on 30/09/2009 17:06:42 Originally by: Ranger 1 Why would I have to try again? The racing game analogy has a non-competative aspect (fine tuning your vehicle) and a competetive aspect (racing the car). The point of the first aspect is to facilitate the second. The racing is the main point of the game. And let me repeat that phrase "racing game"... as opposed to a car show. The point of a car show is to show off your vehicle and be judged on various criteria. The point of a race is to get around the track faster than your competition. If you show up to compete in a race, but never start the engine and keep rambling on about how much prettier your car is than the other competitors, you are going to have people looking at you askance. In this case, it is your example that is flawed. then again you're dead wrong, i may just presume that your assumption of EVE is such, the PVE facilitates PVP, well, that's your view. and some views it differently, cause i don't deem it as a "racing game". unless CCP have emphasized that on the get-go, then i'm wrong, but then again, they call it a "sandbox". and frankly, there are hobbyist car shows that feature collectible cars and they race it around tracks to see which handles better or which is faster, aside from showing off what's under the hood or its overall looks, and take note of the word "hobbyist" :). so, i love PVE of EVE, and i have at least 3 NPC corps in every empire with a standing of at least 2.0, and yes, i run around high sec with impunity, well that's how i describe my fun. and of course, with roughly 6 mil. sp, i'm stuck with BC level 3 coz i want to see what i can do with all those skills. and even though i have 2 NPC corps with standings pretty close to 10, i still do L3s at best. so, with such a game style, i still need to suffer more, aside from occasional ganks running low sec missions or rogue players salvaging your wrecks in mission deadspaces? (ganked twice and they never heard from me, just moved on since its a fact that its part of the game) Noting that only us mission runners are getting the boot out of NPC corps, how "balanced" would the game be? :) oh, to really set your point, kindly answer post 1077 on page 36, i hate run-arounds or beating around the bush, as they say, hehehe.
Asuri Kinnes Caldari Adhocracy Incorporated	Posted - 2009.09.30 18:06:00 - [1093] Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 30/09/2009 18:07:35 Originally by: Ms Iustitia ok, to those "ayes" for the taxation, could you explain or reiterate the advantages of such a "fix"? again, have read and re-read soundwave's post, and its quiet contradicting and never to the point. 1) it says that NPC Corps are just temporary haven (supposedly), yet the tax will only hit mission runners, not the miners, nor industry-based toons. will someone explain why? It will only hit mission rewards over 100K, and (I believe) bounties over 30K - CCP stated that this was to nudge players out of the NPC corps - obviously they believe this is the largest group of characters they can influence, and wish to do so. And are going to do it, apparently. Originally by: Ms Iustitia 2) "unrealistic scenario" in empire, but wait, all empire infrastructure can be used by all players, unless of course one's standing is less than -10.00, which by the way will never happen. this also needs explaining. IMHO - CCP are equating Corp taxes paid into Player Corps with Taxes paid into NPC corps, i.e.: Player Corp A taxes its members @ 11%, NPC Corp #(@&@ taxes @ 11% = the same thing. This is their stated position. Originally by:* Ms Iustitia 3) now war immunity, guess its a pretty good advantage to PVE players, but wait, why is it deemed necessary to declare or to be able to declare war on PVE solo players? are they perceived threats? Not just pve players, playing alone, but tbqh - sometimes you get smack in local from someone. This may never be you, but it happens. I personally don't want to take the Sec hit to snatch'em up by the short & curlies, so they get away with it. If I could war-dec'em, it would go a long way to rectifying the disrespect some players show because they are effectively immune to retribution. This is also CCP's stated position (i.e. - single shard, your actions have consequences...). Originally by: Ms Iustitia 4) "Hopefully, this will let player corporations compete on equal footing with NPC corporations."? equal footing? income? nullsec have all the goodies in terms of minerals and ratting, is it not? highsec corps do band together in exploration sites (mining) and wormholes. anyone care to elaborate? Now your just splitting hairs here. Minerals are available anywhere, so are WH's. Ratting is better the lower sec status system you rat in, true. Maybe CCP wants people in PC corps? Originally by: Ms Iustitia And most of us, "ayes" and "nays", have agreed that 11% would not readily have such impact as perceived, so, i'm asking, what's the exact validity of the said "fix"? and again, what is being "balanced" here? CCP (rightly or wrongly) have identified people residing in NPC corps for long periods of time as an undesirable situation. They aim to remedy it by (apparently from the CCP DevBlog) intend to take steps to change the status-quot. Balanced or not, this is the first step they have taken, with the clear implication that more will follow. Originally by: Ms Iustitia and please, refrain from comparing and thinking that what is years ago will happen "as is" today, i'm quiet familiar how MMOs evolve with respect to the human nature, if the server is just recently, everyone seems to care about everyone else, cause everyone tends to learn amongst themselves, and everyone tends to know everyone as well, then it evolves into being distant and being distrustful, mainly due to competition. Years ago, eve was a pvp only mmo. It topped out at 30K subscribers, and 10,000 online @ once. CCP took steps to fix this (over, I might add, the objections of much of the player base at the time) and we have the game we have today. CCP is going to continue making changes to influence the way they want the game played. I should say, they are going to continue to make changes, regardless of whether or not it ****es off a % of the player base. For Example: Introduction of Hi-Sec (I've heard that was wild...) War-Dec introduction War-Dec Nerf... Nano-Nerf... Lofty-Nerf... Honor is that which you do when no one else is looking.
Asuri Kinnes Caldari Adhocracy Incorporated	Posted - 2009.09.30 18:20:00 - [1094] Stupid Time limit and Character Limit... In any event. CCP does not value the income from your subscriptions any higher or lower than anyone else'. So, apparently, these changes are going to go through. vOv Now, I would like to address all the people that say "OH NOES! WE'LL BE WARDEC'D 23/7!" FFS! I have an alt, trained him up to where he could T-2 fit a Rifter and a Rupture. I went out looking for fights, and found a few. It was fun. But I also tried: Can baiting (BOOOOORING...) Can Flipping (only slightly less BOOOORING...) Ninja-Salvaging (Boring, but with scanners added...) Ninja-Looting (are you kidding me, I can't believe people do this... Running missions is more fun FFS!) I even flipped people the bird in local, talked st and generally misbehaved like a four year old boy on a sugar high! Never got a War-Dec, in three months of trying. Admittedly, I did not: Smack/post crap about any of the Hi-Sec PVP corps - I was in a little, solo, one-man-corp! (WTF!?! - Yep, just me and my ruppie o'doom! TBQH - several ruppies of doom, I sucked @ pvp!) So, as far as wardecs go, mind your own business, don't ST talk/post, and your pretty much going to fly under the radar. So please, spare me the "war-dec" complaint, because I used to be a complete and utter carebear with a heart full of puppy-love for everyone and I am saying that it is (or should not be) a big scary problem. One other piece of advice. If you actually DO get war-dec'd and fighting just absolutely turns you off, then for goodness sake, don't fight. Train all your pilots to use a proto-cloak, fly to all the surrounding systems, make safe-spots away from any celestial, cloak up in said safespot and go to work, go to the mall, watch a movie, whatever. After a week of seeing your entire corp online, but unable to track ANY of them down, you will either have run them off, or ****ed them off so bad they go nuts (and war-dec you forever, if so, all of you in corp contract your stuff to alts, and start over!) in either case, you win. Honor is that which you do when no one else is looking.
Ms Iustitia	Posted - 2009.09.30 18:49:00 - [1095] "When you're asking for a law to be rewritten to make your ultimate goal harder, something has gone terribly wrong"
Rellik B00n Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2009.09.30 19:06:00 - [1096] TH TH TH TH TH TH TH TH TH TH TH TH THREADNAAAAAAAAUGHT + LDS @ Bclnc
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.10.01 06:55:00 - [1097] I know I won't be in a player corp, tax or not. And I know CCP is right about the improved "experience" of a player corp. I get many invites from some great and successful corporations. I turn them down. Is it the wardecs, the ops, or taxes? Scarey scarey 0.0 space? No. I just don't have the time.
pumkinlumpkin	Posted - 2009.10.01 07:42:00 - [1098] I think the whole thing about getting people out of npc corps and into player corps can be solved with time limit on being in a npc corp. 6 months in a npc corp longer you stay the more taxes you have to pay. Join a Player corp then you have 1 month limit on your stay in that corp. If booted sooner you go back to the tax rate you left at in the npc corp.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.01 08:32:00 - [1099] Originally by: Malcanis As for direct exchanges... LOL. Are you seriously saying that if there is a 3.5% base transaction tax that people will only sell stuff with direct exchanges? If so... no, you can be that stupid. Think about it for a bit. Seeing how the gain on a lot of stuff is around 5%, removing 70% of the gain hurt a lot. So everyone that want to sell large quantity of stuff will spam local or other chats and try for a direct trade. The others will pay 103,5% for the minerals multiplied by 103,5% for the sale of the finished item. Instant increase of inflation by more than 7% or instant loss of income for traders and miners if they don't update the prices. You can't be that ignorant of how the market work.
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.10.01 16:01:00 - [1100] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 01/10/2009 08:37:46 Originally by: Malcanis As for direct exchanges... LOL. Are you seriously saying that if there is a 3.5% base transaction tax that people will only sell stuff with direct exchanges? If so... no, you can be that stupid. Think about it for a bit. Seeing how the gain for trading and building a lot of stuff is around 5%, removing 70% of the gain hurt a lot. So everyone that want to sell large quantity of stuff will spam local or other chats and try for a direct trade. The others will pay 103,5% for the minerals multiplied by 103,5% for the sale of the finished item. Instant increase of inflation by more than 7% or instant loss of income for traders and miners if they don't update the prices. You can't be that ignorant of how the market work. Actually, some of us don't know how a market works. We see it more along the lines of: A) THINGS TO DO (i.e.: Mission, Mine, Exploration or Industry) B) THINGS TO BLOW UP (Rats, Players) C) THINGS TO GET BLOWN UP (Ourselves) D) If we loose things doing B or C, that we don't get from A, B or C, we end up at "E"(I know that doesn't make sense!) E) The Market. Which is why markets do stupid things sometimes, like minerals being posted for prices below insurance costs, because "it didn't cost me anything to mine it", when in fact they've lost money if they would have used it to build something, blow it up, and get the insurance.... And back to the point of the thread, this change is coming, CCP are idiots for instituting it in the manner they have, it won't affect anyone with two functioning brain-cells to figure out how to avoid it... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö

Rip Minner Gallente Freewind Ventures	Posted - 2009.10.01 20:39:00 - [1101] Originally by: Carcosa Hali It's an ISK sink, plain and simple. Creating all the one man alt-corps is an ISK sink. Same difference. Also it occurs to me that with all the veteran players out of noob corps and in their one-man corps, there will be few around to tell the real noobs how they can do that; therefore many will stick around a few months, and be easy prey for the swarms of exploitation corps already trolling the spacelanes. Good change. Sorry I had to quote this one for truth as I got hit by a few explotation corps when I was new too. Made me stop playing for halve a year and then I came back and stayed away from player corps and I have been happy for over a year now. Also I am not in a npc corp I have my own one man corp too. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2009.10.05 08:53:00 - [1102] a
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.10.05 09:35:00 - [1103] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 01/10/2009 08:37:46 Originally by: Malcanis As for direct exchanges... LOL. Are you seriously saying that if there is a 3.5% base transaction tax that people will only sell stuff with direct exchanges? If so... no, you can be that stupid. Think about it for a bit. Seeing how the gain for trading and building a lot of stuff is around 5%, removing 70% of the gain hurt a lot. So everyone that want to sell large quantity of stuff will spam local or other chats and try for a direct trade. The others will pay 103,5% for the minerals multiplied by 103,5% for the sale of the finished item. Instant increase of inflation by more than 7% or instant loss of income for traders and miners if they don't update the prices. You can't be that ignorant of how the market work. Why yes, I do believe you're right - that would be a powerful incentive to use player owned stations instead.
Xano Heroma Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2009.10.05 09:39:00 - [1104] Originally by: Rip Minner Originally by: Carcosa Hali It's an ISK sink, plain and simple. Creating all the one man alt-corps is an ISK sink. Same difference. Also it occurs to me that with all the veteran players out of noob corps and in their one-man corps, there will be few around to tell the real noobs how they can do that; therefore many will stick around a few months, and be easy prey for the swarms of exploitation corps already trolling the spacelanes. Good change. Sorry I had to quote this one for truth as I got hit by a few explotation corps when I was new too. Made me stop playing for halve a year and then I came back and stayed away from player corps and I have been happy for over a year now. Also I am not in a npc corp I have my own one man corp too. Yep I agree here !!..... oh man theirs gonna be ALOT of 1-man Corps = pointless
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2009.10.05 14:09:00 - [1105] .
Tuscanspeed Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.10.05 20:54:00 - [1106] Originally by: Xano Heroma Originally by: Rip Minner Originally by: Carcosa Hali It's an ISK sink, plain and simple. Creating all the one man alt-corps is an ISK sink. Same difference. Also it occurs to me that with all the veteran players out of noob corps and in their one-man corps, there will be few around to tell the real noobs how they can do that; therefore many will stick around a few months, and be easy prey for the swarms of exploitation corps already trolling the spacelanes. Good change. Sorry I had to quote this one for truth as I got hit by a few explotation corps when I was new too. Made me stop playing for halve a year and then I came back and stayed away from player corps and I have been happy for over a year now. Also I am not in a npc corp I have my own one man corp too. Yep I agree here !!..... oh man theirs gonna be ALOT of 1-man Corps = pointless You know corp creation will get nerfed next right? ---------------------------------------------- Never have been. Never will be. An Alt.
Esk Esme Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.10.05 22:19:00 - [1107] best make a few alt corps rdy b4 they get nurfed then still dont get the whole forcing ppl into player corps angle each to they own and all that when CCP or a player corp pays my subscription fee happy days sign me up untill then lol already av 2 pvp toons in 0.0 and a few empire toons in empire npc corps they all do a difrent job's that make up my game play but for the new player that starts and ventrure's out to do his 1st lvl 1 the 11% is gona b bit steep for them even tho it seems little to most us tbh also npc corp chat can be good laugh at time's like the dude said few pages back scammer's get jumped on ( new player's learn how to avoide the scams). Isk seller's get blocked ( new players learn RLMT is bad also learn block function ). older player empire alts allways seem to give advise to newer player when asked ( new player gains eve exp through other's). so if there is a mass exodas from npc corps by older alt player's to 1 man corps its only the new player's that gona feel it tbh is this forceing ppl into player corps just to make more targets ?? well there are more ways to pvp than point guns shoot each to they own and all that or does it say somewere that we must play a sertain way ?? my english sux's like i care lol
Solo Quest	Posted - 2009.10.06 01:21:00 - [1108] Originally by: annoing Its not so much the tax, but I have begun to believe that CCP Eris Discordia and ccp are ***** idiots. Go on ccp, tell me how this is a great big sandbox and we can play the game in any way we please .... as long as you are part of a player owned corp that is. Sure, the tax will hurt the alts who npc but big **** deal about that. You shouldnt try to force the player base into something they may not want to do, and making them join an player corp is just that. Everyone wants something different from this game, everyone. Some want to mine, some want to pvp, some want to be industrialists etc ... so who are you to tell them how to play this game? You, the player, who thinks you should force everyone to play it your way should go and sucks a donkeys , its got ** all to do with you. Its their dollar that pays for their game. You dont like how they spend it or the way they play it? Fine, ***** and go play WoW or more likely Runescape like the little spolit ey kids that you are. Get this straight, I dont object to the tax, I object to all you little tossers telling all the others how to play this game. ***** idiots the lot of you. Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist I agree.
AdmiralJohn Gallente The Unknown Bar and Pub	Posted - 2009.10.06 01:37:00 - [1109] I'd like to know something: What is your opinion on pirates, corporate thieves, suicide gankers, and scammers?
Askjold Gallente UKF METASYSTEMS	Posted - 2009.10.06 05:53:00 - [1110] Increase the difficulty of level 3 and level 4 missions forcing player to play together by giving them a good mission communication platform making it easier to find player for missions. Increase the belt rats strenght in 0.7-0.6 sec forcing miner to mine together. I think this would be a better way bringing people together. Its not that indirect and a good opportunity giving high sec corps more engagements. Regards, Askjold "Ein Canu gebaut aus Lamms*****en? Natnrlich esse ich das noch!" Homer J. Simpson

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.06 06:23:00 - [1111] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 01/10/2009 08:37:46 Originally by: Malcanis As for direct exchanges... LOL. Are you seriously saying that if there is a 3.5% base transaction tax that people will only sell stuff with direct exchanges? If so... no, you can be that stupid. Think about it for a bit. Seeing how the gain for trading and building a lot of stuff is around 5%, removing 70% of the gain hurt a lot. So everyone that want to sell large quantity of stuff will spam local or other chats and try for a direct trade. The others will pay 103,5% for the minerals multiplied by 103,5% for the sale of the finished item. Instant increase of inflation by more than 7% or instant loss of income for traders and miners if they don't update the prices. You can't be that ignorant of how the market work. Why yes, I do believe you're right - that would be a powerful incentive to use player owned stations instead. Seeing how commerce tax don't go to the station owning corp but is a isk sink and is applied even in player owned stations, I don't see why it will incentive the use of player owned stations. It only increase isk removal from the game and at the same time price inflation.
Fortum Peccavi	Posted - 2009.10.10 02:59:00 - [1112] 1/9th of the way there!!! You guys can do it!!
Wolf Parade	Posted - 2009.10.11 00:32:00 - [1113] Good job on this move ccp \|I support what is going on here thumbs up\|
Hamshoe	Posted - 2009.10.11 04:12:00 - [1114] Originally by: Ranger 1 It still amazes me how hard some people work to manufacture reasons to justify to themselves why they can not possibly play the majority of the game they are paying for. That has to be the godawfull most stupid, ignorant and mind bogglingly arrogant take on the issue I've seen. Are you truly trying to pretend that your concern is that people aren't getting all they pay for? Do you imagine yourself so enlightened that you need to instruct the poor ignorant slobs who are actually paying and playing as they want to that your preferences are somehow objectively better? You're an ass of collossal proportion. And doubtless incapable of recognizing that.
Xano Heroma Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2009.10.11 07:40:00 - [1115] Originally by: Tuscanspeed Originally by: Xano Heroma Sorry I had to quote this one for truth as I got hit by a few explotation corps when I was new too. Made me stop playing for halve a year and then I came back and stayed away from player corps and I have been happy for over a year now. Also I am not in a npc corp I have my own one man corp too. Yep I agree here !!..... oh man theirs gonna be ALOT of 1-man Corps = pointless You know corp creation will get nerfed next right? yes you are right unfortunetly.... less just hope CCP wakes up from their mind Frack'up before they force too many PVE players out of EVE can't imagen any serious missionrunner that will work under a 11%tax... I surtently won't and running missions with war decs on you is out of the question , but for now i choice to be an optimist and believe that their will contiue to be a "way"... and cross that bridge when and if it should come.
Fortum Peccavi	Posted - 2009.10.11 09:03:00 - [1116] Hey look a threadna... ohshi..!!
MightyRhinox Minmatar Rhinox Heavy Industries Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.11 10:13:00 - [1117] Originally by: Malcanis Yes, good plan. But a transaction tax would be better. Dont compare it to VAT; compare it to the sales tax that countries like New Zealnd have instead of income tax. What an odd thing to say, NZ has income tax, indeed every country with a GST does...
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.10.11 12:04:00 - [1118] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue I love the fact they used 11% as tax rate instead of the standard 10%. 11% for wardec immunity sounds fine to me and it's only a nerf to mission/ratting bounty income anyway, so industry and trade alts are unaffected. Lol, yes, but why are ALTS untouched? Just to even more protect Pirats and 00 player? "here, you can gang people with one char destroying there day and safly steal there loot with this ALT npc corp toon" ? -> STUPID!
Oscardoodle Amarr	Posted - 2009.10.11 12:59:00 - [1119] Originally by: Hamshoe That has to be the godawfull most stupid, ignorant and mind bogglingly arrogant take on the issue I've seen. Are you truly trying to pretend that your concern is that people aren't getting all they pay for? Do you imagine yourself so enlightened that you need to instruct the poor ignorant slobs who are actually paying and playing as they want to that your preferences are somehow objectively better? You're an ass of collossal proportion. And doubtless incapable of recognizing that. How about those PVP players who played how they liked until CCP hit them with the bat? Sounds like you'd be one of the first to cry "adapt or die". Pot, meet kettle.
Concubinia Scarlett	Posted - 2009.10.31 09:39:00 - [1120] Will this not just mean a surge of thousands of one-man corps with a zero tax rate as people 'work around' the 10% NPC tax rate?

Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.10.31 10:01:00 - [1121] Originally by: Concubinia Scarlett Will this not just mean a surge of thousands of one-man corps with a zero tax rate as people 'work around' the 10% NPC tax rate? Yes, but these can now be decced. That's the whole point. Things are going to be ... interesting ... -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.10.31 11:25:00 - [1122] Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Yes, but these can now be decced. That's the whole point. Things are going to be ... interesting ... lol, wut? 1000 corps x 2mil isk wardec fee = 2billion isk very interesting indeed. More like: nothing too see here, move along!
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2009.10.31 13:22:00 - [1123] Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Originally by: Concubinia Scarlett Will this not just mean a surge of thousands of one-man corps with a zero tax rate as people 'work around' the 10% NPC tax rate? Yes, but these can now be decced. That's the whole point. Things are going to be ... interesting ... Yes very interesting because preventing one person from undocking for a week or more makes the game more interesting. The influx of corps is going to cause many offices to go up in price and be a bit of annoyance. 11% isn't for war dec immunity. If you want to pick a fight on ONE person then steal from their can.
Casimir Fenring	Posted - 2009.10.31 18:48:00 - [1124] Personally, 11% is no skin off of my buttocks to keep from being dragged into some pimply faced twits trying to work off their inferiority complexes with a wardec.
Casimir Fenring	Posted - 2009.10.31 18:56:00 - [1125] Originally by: Ms Iustitia Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 30/09/2009 14:43:51 On the issue of jump clones being difficult to get... wat? There are any number of people you can contact through this forum that provide a jump clone aquisition service for a small fee. Or, interestingly enough, if you join a corp that has standings already you can get them regardless of your own. Or, if you join a corp that owns a Mothership they can cook one up for you at any time. I believe Roquals can do this as well. On the matter of getting podded in empire, while it is possible to have lag issues and get popped on occassion, it really is a rarity. And if you are in a cheaply implanted (if at all) clone, who cares anyway? It still amazes me how hard some people work to manufacture reasons to justify to themselves why they can not possibly play the majority of the game they are paying for. It is somewhat like playing a race game and only fooling around with customizing the cars, because if you actually raced them you might dent the fender. True, you can do that. Just don't be surprised that the game design caters to the people that are actually racing, and when most folks tell you that you are missing the point. i have to disagree, your analogy of Eve akin to a "race game" is somewhat wrong, you see, EVE has PVE and PVP content, so, it won't just be "fooling" if you will pursue the PVE content only, as of a "Race Game", its just a race, but certainly, there are events that cater car hobbyists who'll love racing their cars and just merely showing them off in one venue. some Car Shows do that, then again, you're just putting points to discredit an issue, try again. It would be really nice if you could pursue PvE without having to put up with the BS of PvP'ers screwing with you looking for an easy kill.
Dr Karsun Gallente HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.31 19:05:00 - [1126] That is actually... Sick. It'll change -nothing-, isk farmers will just create their own 1-2-3-4-5 people corps with 0% tax and take up nice corp names to hide the fact... It'll just make mission running newbs lose 11% of their isk making it harder for them to quickly jump into their first bs to run l4's smoothly. /not signed at all, although I know it won't change anything. Making custom signatures and banners - check my in-game bio for details!
Mimi Ar'Skele Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2009.11.01 06:00:00 - [1127] Awesomest change ever. Look, we know the vets will avoid this. No impact to anyone who's been in eve for any length of time. Those of us enjoying the massively singleplayer experience will still have it. Newbies lose: 1. A useful rookie channel. Yup, the NPC corps are 1337% more useful than the ISK seller spamfest new characters are dumped into. 2. Their ships. You KNOW new guys have no clue corpies can shoot them in highsec. They'll blindly hook up with low tax corps hoping to learn the ropes, and instead will learn why it's important to keep their clone up to date. We'll see how this pans out. I for one will not be impacted overmuch, mostly because I only mission to grind standings. The ISK from mission running is pitiful in the grand scheme of things.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.11.01 07:11:00 - [1128] Originally by: Mimi Ar'Skele Awesomest change ever. Look, we know the vets will avoid this. No impact to anyone who's been in eve for any length of time. Those of us enjoying the massively singleplayer experience will still have it. Newbies lose: 1. A useful rookie channel. Yup, the NPC corps are 1337% more useful than the ISK seller spamfest new characters are dumped into. 2. Their ships. You KNOW new guys have no clue corpies can shoot them in highsec. They'll blindly hook up with low tax corps hoping to learn the ropes, and instead will learn why it's important to keep their clone up to date. We'll see how this pans out. I for one will not be impacted overmuch, mostly because I only mission to grind standings. The ISK from mission running is pitiful in the grand scheme of things. 1: Rookies won't be affected by this tax as there are minimum amounts that will be taxed, only the more experienced players will be getting rewards that are high enough to break the tax threshold. So no, rookies will not loose their useful rookie channel. 2: By the time the tax DOES start affecting them, they should have learned enough to know that their corp mates can shoot them... as well as have had an opportunity to meet people they feel they would like to try corp life with. It might surprise you to learn that only a very small fraction of corps recruit people just to shoot them as, oddly enough, no one wants to join them and they fade away. Funny how that works. Quote: That has to be the godawfull most stupid, ignorant and mind bogglingly arrogant take on the issue I've seen. Are you truly trying to pretend that your concern is that people aren't getting all they pay for? Do you imagine yourself so enlightened that you need to instruct the poor ignorant slobs who are actually paying and playing as they want to that your preferences are somehow objectively better? You're an ass of collossal proportion. And doubtless incapable of recognizing that. Sorry I missed this one when it was first posted. Let me clarify. I'm not concerned in the slightest about people getting their monies worth out of EVE, nor is that what I said. I AM amused at the lengths people go to in justifying why they should have no repercussions for insisting on playing by beginners rules, with beginning players protections, long after they are proficient enough to play with the big boys. To put it in very, very simplistic terms you have joined a game of RISK. However you insist that not only should you be able to gain units a little faster than everyone else, but no one is allowed to attempt to invade the countries you hold. Hey, most people try to cut the guy who's never played before a little slack so he can get the hang of it, but after a while it gets a little old. Sure, you may enjoy accumulating units on the map under those rules but really, eventually, what is the point of playing. CCP has said it, and the community in general has said it, perhaps eventually it will get through to you. NPC corps are intended for new players to learn the game, and as such are safer than other area's of the game. After a while, you really need to move on. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Zulf BesGUowy	Posted - 2009.11.01 08:02:00 - [1129] Fragment of Dev Blog "It seems like an unrealistic scenario that the empires in EVE provide infrastructure, security and a host of other financially demanding services at no cost. I sometimes read people complaining about how EVEs physics are unrealistic, but on the realism scale, that still pales compared to a government that refuses to tax its citizens." By CCP Soundwave I agre to this,thys is fresh and logical,here nothing for free,but why 11%? 5% tax should be ok,here no reason for higer tax beacuse idea is to put feeling to player "you have to pay for meny things",not feeling "you have to pay tax for corp thiefs".If CCP thinking here is a lot mony on mission,they have to reduce amount of bounty,not amount of tax. For some reasons 11% is to much,like in real world nobody want to pay high tax,especially new players who need boost to wallet,new skills ships implants etc,CPP dont forget this,a lot player earn mony in mission then those people buy stuf for pvp. And about corporation,here no difirence betwen rats in empire or 0.0 people have to farm npc if they want mony for pvp,not all people have idea and knowledge about trade-manufacture-so they do mission,because or kiling rats in 0.0 is easy way to get mony. Ps Sory for my grammar
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.01 08:12:00 - [1130] Originally by: Ranger 1 1: Rookies won't be affected by this tax as there are minimum amounts that will be taxed, only the more experienced players will be getting rewards that are high enough to break the tax threshold. So no, rookies will not loose their useful rookie channel. Half of the rats in level 2? Level 2 mission rewards? Truly the experience of people doing level 2 mission is staggering and the should not be in a NPC corp. Originally by: Ranger 1 2: By the time the tax DOES start affecting them, they should have learned enough to know that their corp mates can shoot them... as well as have had an opportunity to meet people they feel they would like to try corp life with. It might surprise you to learn that only a very small fraction of corps recruit people just to shoot them as, oddly enough, no one wants to join them and they fade away. Funny how that works. Funny as this is not true. a) There is a practically endless stream of new players that will not know how it work so they fall for it; b) there is not in game mechanism to know what corps do that so again people will fall for it (note that players tricked that way will not return to a starter corp, so they will not be spreading the word of what are the "bad" corporations); c) they will be the most aggressive corps recruiting in the starter NPC corps so they will get a fair percentage of the new players in proportion to the actual number of the corps doing that.

Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.11.01 08:17:00 - [1131] 38 pages is a lot of thread. Has a single person who was opposed to this tax become reconciled to it? Or a single supporter been persuaded against it? Because it seems like if anyone was going to be persuaded, that 38 pages would be enough to do the job. Otherwise this thread should be deleted at once, because of TQ's known vulnerability to snowflakes. PS I'm back!
ServantOfMask Minmatar Eye Bee Em	Posted - 2009.11.01 08:48:00 - [1132] Edited by: ServantOfMask on 01/11/2009 08:49:28 just had a look on sisi... npc corp tax has been increased to 15% ! there is also an option to war-dec non-starter NPC corporations !! wow... talk about an incentive to GTFO of npc corps since everyone and their grandmothers will wardec npc corps. i'm considering taking a vacation from wormholing to kill me some CNR's in motsu. edit: this is what you get for crying about 11% with no change to war dec immunity. "Misina Arlath GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."
Serpents smile	Posted - 2009.11.01 09:01:00 - [1133] Originally by: ServantOfMask Edited by: ServantOfMask on 01/11/2009 08:49:28 just had a look on sisi... npc corp tax has been increased to 15% ! there is also an option to war-dec non-starter NPC corporations !! \ You're kidding right? Because if it is true then this thread is nothing compared to the mass explosion that will follow this little piece of information. (/me starts praying it is true) Someone bring me MA' POPCORN!
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.11.01 09:36:00 - [1134] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/11/2009 09:39:18 Quote: Originally by: Ranger 1 1: Rookies won't be affected by this tax as there are minimum amounts that will be taxed, only the more experienced players will be getting rewards that are high enough to break the tax threshold. So no, rookies will not loose their useful rookie channel. Quote: Half of the rats in level 2? Level 2 mission rewards? Truly the experience of people doing level 2 mission is staggering and the should not be in a NPC corp. Rolling Eyes Originally by: Ranger 1 They start feeling partially in level 2's and feel it fully in level 3 missions. Sounds about right actually. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.11.01 10:02:00 - [1135] Originally by: ServantOfMask Edited by: ServantOfMask on 01/11/2009 08:49:28 just had a look on sisi... npc corp tax has been increased to 15% ! there is also an option to war-dec non-starter NPC corporations !! wow... talk about an incentive to GTFO of npc corps since everyone and their grandmothers will wardec npc corps. i'm considering taking a vacation from wormholing to kill me some CNR's in motsu. edit: this is what you get for crying about 11% with no change to war dec immunity. I'm not in a position where I can get on the test server currently to confirm this. If true, I don't really see a big problem with 15%, seems like a more sensible level to be honest... about 5% above what most corps run at. As for being able to war dec NPC corps, now that is a new wrinkle. It makes me wonder if there will be new options for people that wish to "role play" being a member of a specific NPC corp, or if things will be left just as they are in that regard to pressure people into leaving the NPC corp you find yourself in after leaving a player corp as quickly as possible. I guess we will just have to see if this is true, is kept, is developed further. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.01 10:50:00 - [1136] Originally by: ServantOfMask just had a look on sisi... npc corp tax has been increased to 15% ! there is also an option to war-dec non-starter NPC corporations !! Both false.
ServantOfMask Minmatar Eye Bee Em	Posted - 2009.11.01 11:36:00 - [1137] Originally by: Venkul Mul Both false. damnit you had to tell them didn't you? im trying to fan the blaze a bit.. we are soo close to beating the dead horse (54pages) and that took 3years. was hoping for alot more tears and rage before someone actually logged into sisi to check. kudos to you "Misina Arlath GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."
RedSplat Noir.	Posted - 2009.11.01 11:57:00 - [1138] Tax still needs to be higher Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.11.01 17:27:00 - [1139] Venkul Mul I haven't brought this to the level of personal insults, perhaps you should refrain from that. Yes, access to information for the new player looking for a corp can be improved. I would suggest keeping your eye peeled for further information on New Eden. However it is difficult for new players not to find information on reputable starter player corps within the first few months of play even as things are now. If you don't agree with that assessment, that's fine... difficult to believe, but fine. I know what you are trying to say, but the fact remains that the number of new players that end up stumbling into a corp that recruits them to die is pretty low. How many healthy player corps are out there? Open your eyes. The VAST majority of EVE players happily existing in player corps. If you don't see that, I'm afraid you are deep in denial. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Casimir Fenring	Posted - 2009.11.01 23:41:00 - [1140] Actually, I'm one of the many players quite satisfied being in an NPC corp. As I said before, 11% is a small price to pay to avoid all of the BS that accompanies a wardec. The ones I've been involved in were for no other purpose than to extort money from the player corps I was in. Pointless and costly. If CCP wants to reflect a real social system, players should be able to go indie, not having membership in either a NPC or player corp. Which begs the question of just why CCP continues to steer, or as seems to be the case here...push, players into corps. I'm also one of those ISK farmers who simply enjoys the game for what it is...a game. I enjoy it so much that I have 3 accounts, and am active on all 3 on a regular basis. But the farming has a goal...generate income while I develop skills to do what I want to do in the game...without having to deal with player corp BS.

Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.01 23:58:00 - [1141] Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 02/11/2009 00:01:14 If it's posible to wardec NPC corps ... it might be posible to kill all this remote-rep and hauler alts from Pirates. But I'm sure CCP intruduses a backdoor to protect them again :(. As tax doesn't tuch this hauler/remote-rep/miner alts anyway, they might just stay in Rookie corps and lough about all the dump free-kill-sheeps they get. Nother proof CCP hate mission runner and love pirates/scammer :(.
Asuri Kinnes Caldari The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.11.02 05:05:00 - [1142] Originally by: Malcanis 38 pages is a lot of thread. Has a single person who was opposed to this tax become reconciled to it? PS I'm back! I'm becoming reconciled to it, in spite of the ham-handed and patently idiotic manner it was introduced. Originally by: Ranger 1 B: Actually, there are a number of avenues for people to investigate prospective corporations. I disagree. I think the tools to research corps in this game suck compared to the very famous scamming... but thats just my opinion... Originally by: Ranger 1 You know as well as I do that there are reputable corporations dedicated to helping new players take their first steps out of the noob corps. They are well advertised and easy to find. Try again. There are some good newb friendly corps out there. I disagree however with the "ease of finding them..." Not everyone gets as lucky as I did, and get a good lead on Eve - Uni shortly after I joined the game. I've run into many, many people who had no clue... Didn't know who to trust, or where to start looking... In any event, this tax will change nothing, as has been stated before, it only amounts to about 3.5% on a mission runners income if they salvage/loot. Basically nothing. People will still be immune to wardec's. (FFS, no one is going to bother war-dec'ing hundreds of 1 man corps...)[[just don't talk smack, you'll be almost perfectly safe...]] Players who don't want to be in player corps won't change. CCP's ham-handed attempt to encourage players to move to Player Corps won't (at this level) accomplish what they want. CCP really should look into changing the recruiting / advertising / corp interface... But I hear that would require more than just going after "low-hanging fruit", i.e. coding and effort... P.S. - Welcome back Malcanis
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.11.02 05:25:00 - [1143] As I have stated before, I am in an NPC corp because I have not had time for a real one. This might change though as my real world Cyclone is nearing completion. As for wardeccing NPC corps, this sounds like a boost for FW. I doubt the noobiest of noob corps will be decable, lest the start systems be full of rookie ship wrecks (and all those claiming the PVP is just the way it is reveal their true nature). But deccing a FW NPC corp might jazz FW up a little.
Casimir Fenring	Posted - 2009.11.02 10:19:00 - [1144] Originally by: Asuri Kinnes Originally by: Malcanis 38 pages is a lot of thread. Has a single person who was opposed to this tax become reconciled to it? PS I'm back! I'm becoming reconciled to it, in spite of the ham-handed and patently idiotic manner it was introduced. Originally by: Ranger 1 B: Actually, there are a number of avenues for people to investigate prospective corporations. I disagree. I think the tools to research corps in this game suck compared to the very famous scamming... but thats just my opinion... Originally by: Ranger 1 You know as well as I do that there are reputable corporations dedicated to helping new players take their first steps out of the noob corps. They are well advertised and easy to find. Try again. There are some good newb friendly corps out there. I disagree however with the "ease of finding them..." Not everyone gets as lucky as I did, and get a good lead on Eve - Uni shortly after I joined the game. I've run into many, many people who had no clue... Didn't know who to trust, or where to start looking... In any event, this tax will change nothing, as has been stated before, it only amounts to about 3.5% on a mission runners income if they salvage/loot. Basically nothing. People will still be immune to wardec's. (FFS, no one is going to bother war-dec'ing hundreds of 1 man corps...)[[just don't talk smack, you'll be almost perfectly safe...]] Players who don't want to be in player corps won't change. CCP's ham-handed attempt to encourage players to move to Player Corps won't (at this level) accomplish what they want. CCP really should look into changing the recruiting / advertising / corp interface... But I hear that would require more than just going after "low-hanging fruit", i.e. coding and effort... P.S. - Welcome back Malcanis Well said. All bases covered.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.02 10:55:00 - [1145] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 02/11/2009 11:04:16 Originally by: Ranger 1 Venkul Mul I haven't brought this to the level of personal insults, perhaps you should refrain from that. Sorry to have been offensive but you really don't want to look the situation with the eyes of a new player. I try to consider the balance starting with the point that the NPC corps should work for the new players and if that allow old players alts or mains to "game" the system it is a necessary evil. You try to balance it with from the point of view that old players (both main and alts) in NPC corps should be nerfed and that it that damage new players it is a necessary evil. Probably two totally opposite positions with no meeting point. Sometime your absolutist position and unwillingness to acknowledge the effect on new players grate my nerves, so the harsh reply. For me someone 1 month old and running level 3 missions in a BC is a new player and should not be affected by the tax, for you the tax affecting a 1 week old character running level 2 mission in a cruiser is the right point to apply it. Originally by: Ranger 1 Yes, access to information for the new player looking for a corp can be improved. I would suggest keeping your eye peeled for further information on New Eden. However it is difficult for new players not to find information on reputable starter player corps within the first few months of play even as things are now. If you don't agree with that assessment, that's fine... difficult to believe, but fine. Sigh, Q.E.D. "find information on reputable starter player corps within the first few months" That kind of griefing is done in the first few days/weeks, not months. And the first few weeks are the point were EVE lose most new players I think. Originally by: Ranger 1 I know what you are trying to say, but the fact remains that the number of new players that end up stumbling into a corp that recruits them to die is pretty low. How many healthy player corps are out there? And how many of those healthy corps recruit noobs with less than 2-3 months of play from the NPC corps? Originally by: Ranger 1 Open your eyes. The VAST majority of EVE players happily existing in player corps. If you don't see that, I'm afraid you are deep in denial. Curious then that CCP feel the need to push people in players corps. If the VAST majority is already there and so happy they should be capable of convince the other players to join them. Originally by: Asuri Kinnes Originally by: Malcanis 38 pages is a lot of thread. Has a single person who was opposed to this tax become reconciled to it? I'm becoming reconciled to it, in spite of the ham-handed and patently idiotic manner it was introduced. Accepted it: yes. Reconciled with something that will no work unless the goal is to get more 1 man corp? no. Personally it will not touch me. All my characters have been in PC corps for most of their life. I have only 1 R&D car in a NPC corp over several accounts. But it still irritate me as it is useless for the stated goal. It is only a bit of salve for the ego of those that want more targets to wardec.
Asuri Kinnes Caldari The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2009.11.02 14:46:00 - [1146] Originally by: Venkul Mul But it still irritate me as it is useless for the stated goal. It is only a bit of salve for the ego of those that want more targets to wardec. VM - I agree with some of the things you post, and disagree with others. Same with Malcanis. Keep in mind however, that many of the people posting in favor of this change have (at various points in the past, and in other threads) expressed a desire that people would leave hi-sec and NPC corps. NOT to be shot (as such) but rather to give their 0.0 Corp or Alliance a better shot at recruiting them. I don't think this change will impact their recruiting (especially as slow as CCP is at making changes [thank god!]) any time soon. Being war-dec free is quite an attraction... I think before any big impact is felt the tax would have to hit 25% to 35%. One question I've asked before tho, and haven't gotten an answer from anyone: Are there any figures on how many of the "over 2M skill point" players that are in NPC corps are actually alts of other, established toons? I haven't been able to find anything on that, but CCP should have that number (imho) if their going to make a change like this. i.e. - how many people are actually targeted? I've rambled again... Sorry.
Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.11.02 16:17:00 - [1147] omg this thread is still alive...
ServantOfMask Minmatar Eye Bee Em	Posted - 2009.11.02 22:43:00 - [1148] BRAAAAAAINZzzzzzzzz! "Misina Arlath GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."


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