I don't think this will satisfy DarthNefarius, better make them all super easy again. Oh and nerf Wormholes too!

Hehe, I give it a week before he is back forum warrioring for another buff to incursions.

The reason I'm annoyed at the war dec changes is actually because I can't declare war on him now. I was considering doing it for the lulz, then I remembered that not only is evading war decs still trivial but he can just invite half of Eve to join him for free.

So now you've destroyed the (already terrible) war dec system, you're following up with winding back high sec nerfs? Nice one CCP.

While I agree with the incursion bar changes, buffing isk reward in high sec is simply a quick fix. One that in the long run is just going to continue turning older players away from the game.

Because that's the same dev team, right? Jesus you high sec people get bitter easy

On the feedback side of things, thanks for still watching this ccp, though I do fear this may not be enough of a buff, especially when considering OTA's. And given the large nerf that was random triggers, I would have like to see an overall buff to payouts, instead of just vanguards.

Thankyou! Let's hope some of the old communities that got crucified will return.

Silly changes to be honest. It's not the 10% isk nerf that is killing incursion fleets, nor is it the influence bar although it was definitely better earlier. It's the pacing that's an issue, fleets running into roadblocks with sites not worth running.

If isk was their only concern, and it seems it really was, rollback ALL changes and nerf all incursion profits, including LP by 50% in high sec, 30% in null sec and leave low sec as is and the incursion community would complain about the nerf in the short run, but in the long run people would actually start running them again. The isk gained would drop significantly, but still be at comparable levels to l4 missioning (topping it slightly, when you're in a good fleet, and being roughly the same with junk fleets vs. non optimal l4 runners).

Because that's the same dev team, right? Jesus you high sec people get bitter easy

On the feedback side of things, thanks for still watching this ccp, though I do fear this may not be enough of a buff, especially when considering OTA's. And given the large nerf that was random triggers, I would have like to see an overall buff to payouts, instead of just vanguards.

I think at the end of the day, we were unhappy with the way the changes turned out and now we're going to kill them. These are stopgaps though, we'll need to do some larger remodeling but that has to go on another timescale than "next week".

So now you've destroyed the (already terrible) war dec system, you're following up with winding back high sec nerfs? Nice one CCP.

While I agree with the incursion bar changes, buffing isk reward in high sec is simply a quick fix. One that in the long run is just going to continue turning older players away from the game.

Because that's the same dev team, right? Jesus you high sec people get bitter easy

On the feedback side of things, thanks for still watching this ccp, though I do fear this may not be enough of a buff, especially when considering OTA's. And given the large nerf that was random triggers, I would have like to see an overall buff to payouts, instead of just vanguards.

(2:50:04 PM) Cpt Underpants: "We promised to monitor the result of these changes and we stand to our promise: after evaluating both your feedback and our internal metrics, we..." realised nobody is doing incursions at all outside of highsec.

Wow, are you guys on liquor again?
Incursions were the nr1 source of inflation in the game. Just check the rising plex prices
in the last year and from the time when incursions begun. The small change of 10% drop
in rewards was insufficient, and now you are backing up from it?
Way to go ccp, spineless bunch

what about a tweak to OTA's? make them bearable for fleets other then the ones that blind you with shiny stuff (remove that stupid repping tower and/or the hacking requirement)

that might restore it some some form of popularity, instead of stopping vanguards alltogether after there is nothing but OTA's

These are just short term fixes to get us back to a place where people are happier with Incursions. We will look at further changes in the future - one step at a time.

Just to re-iterate what my blog says and what CCP Soundwave has already stated - we will be making more changes in the future. We will monitor (both through feedback and stats) the payout issue and we will make any further changes we feel are necessary. The only reason for the rollbacks is that we feel we made too many changes at once and want to look into this in more detail and take smaller steps.

these changes combined made getting the influence bar under control an almost impossible task

These are just short term fixes to get us back to a place where people are happier with Incursions. We will look at further changes in the future - one step at a time.

Can we get to see some stats about incursion, pre-inferno and post-inferno?

With so many tweaks made at once, it became very difficult to determine the success of each individual change.

Not sure I can give the exact numbers, but the use of Vanguards basically floored.

Just what is the issue with OTAs? Why are they so hated?

We are listening to the feedback about OTA and we are taking it seriously but that is a change we will have to look at for a future expansion, not one we can squeeze in now. We also don't want to make any further changes right now, please read my previous post about small steps

And do you think that a 10% change to the profit will be enough to change this? Like said numerous times, the OTA wall is the issue. If it's the profits you wish to cut, just rollback every change and nerf incursion income by 50%, this essentially drops the profits down to just slightly above l4 missions and like seen before, there would be no single site type that everyone would avoid.

At Fanfest, CCP's economist stated that Incursions added 9+B ISK per month to the Eve economy, compared to a total ISK faucet in the game of 56B (as I remember). CCP's unwillingness to believe there was any problem for so long with this new game feature was simple ostrich tactics.

I am on record as saying that CCP made far to many changes to the Eve economy with Escalation and Inferno. But, to simply roll-back virtually all changes and ignore this ISK badly leaky faucet is CCP at its best: responding only to lost subscriptions. Simple solution would be, first, tighten the ISK faucet *soon*, then work on issues of difficulty next (and not some day far off).

CCP will find that while sticking its fingers into all the leaking holes in the Eve economic dam that vermin have infested each particular hole and bite it. CCP needs to tough it out, get bitten, or risk continued spiraling inflation (which CCP seems to feel is a problem).

Not sure I can give the exact numbers, but the use of Vanguards basically floored.

Step 1: Remove incursions from hisec

The problem in that will be that you wont see much if any changes in the way people run (or rather don't run) incursions if you don't change it so that people actually want to run the sites again. Sure, for null sec players that influence bar change will change it for the better, but for the low sec and high sec players it will mean very little, same with that 10% isk reward. The whole thing just seems so backwards done that it's not even funny, right from the start when you nerfed them to the way you're backtracking on the wrong things.

Incursioners for the most part would be content with smaller reward, but incursioners for the most part will be looking for other activities if the fleets don't run. That's something you haven't adressed at all with this announcement. You basically have content that no one wants to use, where's the sense in that?

At Fanfest, CCP's economist stated that Incursions added 9+B ISK per month to the Eve economy, compared to a total ISK faucet in the game of 56B (as I remember). CCP's unwillingness to believe there was any problem for so long with this new game feature was simple ostrich tactics.

I am on record as saying that CCP made far to many changes to the Eve economy with Escalation and Inferno. But, to simply roll-back virtually all changes and ignore this ISK badly leaky faucet is CCP at its best: responding only to lost subscriptions. Simple solution would be, first, tighten the ISK faucet *soon*, then work on issues of difficulty next (and not some day far off).

CCP will find that while sticking its fingers into all the leaking holes in the Eve economic dam that vermin have infested each particular hole and bite it. CCP needs to tough it out, get bitten, or risk continued spiraling inflation (which CCP seems to feel is a problem).

you talk about 9Bill a mounth more isk in the game... well what about ALL the stuff that dosn't drop when you blow up other ship's ..

and incurtion ship have the fit value of like 4 bill. and when this ship explode. only 15% of the moduls drop, we are talking about officer and faction module witch dosn't drop, thy get distroied.

and this is just incurtion runners. in PVP this is the same. a ship dies. and all you get is the enemies ammo. no realy good loot from there modules.

don't talk about putting ISK into the game. when the Drop rate of Combat Loot takes 200% more out of the game.

Step 1: Remove incursions from hisec

stop crying.. Incurtions sould ONLY be in high seq. as it is sansha trying to get back on the empire .. WTF sould he realy try to invade NILL seq' realy ..???? this dosn't make any sinds at all.. the story is that he was dobblecrosed by Amarr empire. and "sould" only try to invade high seq for tis reson..

the fact that incurtions are in low and nill is only to balance the game..

and while we are at it.. when are we getting Tech moon mining in high seq.. "just to balance the game"

The main change that killed Vanguards was the OTA, not the payouts... And it's been clearly stated in the forums... And by looking at the data CCP could not see the OTA stacking up in every system??? I'm a bit disappointed... The only thing Vanguards need is balancing of the OTA site, ok, some iterations for influence bar are welcome. Payout is not the issue.

Changes in the payout may be the only needed change, provided you keep iterating on them. For example, OTA's may deserve a higher payout than other sites, just to make them worth while.

A) It's nine trillion.

B) Incursion ships are not 4B, some are, but not all. And it's not particularly important anyway when they so rarely explode.

C) Drop rates aren't 15%., and you don't just get the enemy's ammunition, try blowing a ship up and see.

D) Module and ship destruction does not remove ISK from the game.

I always see this posted as a joke

D) Module and ship destruction does not remove ISK from the game.

Fact is you listened to the griefing retards and screwed the pooch and if you think 10% isk is going to unf**ck vanguards you are smoking the wrong stuff

perhaps blitzing the incursion equivalent of L3 missions isn't supposed to be more profitable than any other PvE in the game?

perhaps blitzing the incursion equivalent of L3 missions isn't supposed to be more profitable than any other PvE in the game?

perhaps blitzing the incursion equivalent of L3 missions isn't supposed to be more profitable than any other PvE in the game?

Grief on baby

Yes, caring about the risk/reward balance in the game is griefing. Good to know!

nerf all incursion profits, including LP by 50% in high sec

No but Goons don't mind keeping all the high isk earnings in 0.0 so don't talk to me about Risk / Reward thats plain b0llox, I have done loads of 0.0 and risk isn't as much as it is in wormholes

Not sure I can give the exact numbers, but the use of Vanguards basically floored.

Some fleets, namely armor fleets, have managed to combat that issue by fitting microwarp drives to each and every ship and then moving everyone to the hacking locations. That however essentially means that half of the fleets are completely unable to do the same, unless they nerf their fits so badly that they're practically unable to do anything else.

if you want to make incursions interesting and fun again make it more realistic like pvp instead of a isk grinding activity which it mostly is you do vanguards in shiny fleets and ignore all others.
you wouldn't use battleships to kill frigs i mean who thought of that?.

Perhaps because wormholes are supposed to be inherently more dangerous than k-space?

And because nullsec is inherently more dangerous than hisec?

I have to take my hat off to you, sir, for the ability to say that with a straight face.

Incursions: Identical across all security regions with a nominal alteration in payout.

Step 1: Remove incursions from hisec

These are just short term fixes to get us back to a place where people are happier with Incursions. We will look at further changes in the future - one step at a time.

Thought is was a 50% increase going from high to low/null? Do you count this as nominal or do I have the numbers wrong?

IIRC the difference is a little over 30%, which is nominal given the additional effort required to form a fleet and get ships to location. You also cannot use the same "shiny" fleets, unless you are very certain of how secure the area is, and a noticeable increase in NPC deaths will very quickly bring people to the system to check on you.

Basically if you think waiting a little while for a fleet in high sec is bad, try forming a low sec incursion fleet.

I have this odd feeling that I'm the only one who likes OTA's now...

Very quick and to the point.

The changes are a start but I don't feel they really are enough to get people running vg's again. They also don't address the biggest issue, that being the ota's. OTA's are too hard for fleets other than super shiney ones. So the end result is going to be stacking OTA's in systems with very few, if any, fleet running them.

Define supershiny. I've been in a system where they stacked because they took longer, but not because they were impossible and the fleet was a mix of ships including a tech 1 BS, a few navy and pirate BS's and a couple of T3's and not everyone was shiny fit, some only running T2 mods. Even then it wasn't particularly painful.

This is it exactly

CCP
It's mentioned that VG's fell to the floor after your last change but you are not asking "why did they fall to the floor and what was the biggest reason they fell to the floor?" You are not drilling down to the real root cause.

Now, if changing the OTA's is not a simple fix and one you can't get to right now, so you are adjusting the issues you can fix in hopes it will work is all you can do, then that is fine. Just be honest. At least I don't hope you are really counting on the new fixes to fix the issue

There is the concern of the dangers of those areas, but what is the "fair" multiplication factor in accounting for this? Too low and it's not worth it, but the fact that they were done before means to someone it was worth it, and too high and the income level becomes broken. Maybe that needs revisited?

Just to clear this up again, as people seem to be confused.
...
Now we will have an almost pre-escalation slate to start from and make the right changes.

We don't need to talk multiples, we need to talk straight isk/hour. The payouts were too high, and now they're too low. Even though we do have a closed pool of allies to draw from, not everyone is available to run 23/7, especially during deployments.

Lowsec & nullsec incursions should be balanced to pay out about as much per individual as high-end solo ratting, or else everyone is just going to go hide in their sanctums with their tengus instead of coming out to socialize.

Currently, in Fountain, doing anomalies with a tengu that has fighters assigned to it can make upwards of 90m/hr. Many people who don't have a carrier have a second tengu and can make even more.

CCP: We don't care what the missions are or what flaming hoops we have to jump through to get the payouts, as long as it's balanced with other forms of income.

The magic number is between 80-90.

Good explanation for why payouts and rewards in W-space should be higher than in K-space.

I have to take my hat off to you, sir, for the ability to say that with a straight face.

Thought is was a 50% increase going from high to low/null? Do you count this as nominal or do I have the numbers wrong?

It's not even close to 50%.

We are listening to the feedback about OTA and we are taking it seriously but that is a change we will have to look at for a future expansion, not one we can squeeze in now. We also don't want to make any further changes right now, please read my previous post about small steps

I may be wrong about the multiplier then. My math came out to a ~42% increase going from high to low.

That'd make sense if people were flying shiny fleets outside of hisec.

Just to clear this up again, as people seem to be confused. We weren't happy with the outcome of the changes so we are rolling back. This has absolutely nothing to do with fixing Incursions or making right or wrong changes in the future .. it is simply that once the changes hit TQ, we didn't feel they sent Incursions in a direction we want to take them - so we are reverting them. Now we will have an almost pre-escalation slate to start from and make the right changes. I have several threads of feedback and have spoken with many people about the future of Incursions and we will make a lot more threads about the changes as they progress.

Thank you for this important clarification.

Unfortunately, your confidence in "reverting them ... [to an] ... almost pre-escalation slate to start from" may be materially misplaced.

In the hierarchy of factors that have changed the nature of incursions, what you are rolling back pales in significance to the impact of the trigger changes. To genuinely make incursions "almost pre-escalation" would require a roll-back that reinstates the triggers and removes the WoW-like dungeon grinding.

Do note, I'm not necessarily advocating that rollback, just pointing out the potential hole in your assumption.

Something needs to change to make them worth doing again. Come on give me a reason to dust off the Vindy and make some serious isk.

I really wonder why they needed to tweak the incursions in the first place

alts of some nullsec alliances

Not sure I can give the exact numbers, but the use of Vanguards basically floored.

We are listening to the feedback about OTA and we are taking it seriously but that is a change we will have to look at for a future expansion, not one we can squeeze in now. We also don't want to make any further changes right now, please read my previous post about small steps

The biggest flaw with Incursions isn't just the amount of ISK they were producing, its that producing ISK is ALL they were good for. There was such talk of the 'incursion community' and how they enjoyed their challenging co-operative intelligent PvE but as soon as the ISK fountain was turned down that 'community' scattered to the four winds.

As a method of producing lasting bonds between individuals incursions haven't worked, instead we've seen an attitude of 'lets grind ISK with strangers then go our separate ways again'. That's the underlying issue here.

From my personal view and from a lot of friends i made during making incursions this statement could not be more wrong.

Nope, we're reverting these two specific changes because they were a mistake. I never said they would change everything back to how it was, but looking at them in isolation I don't think they were beneficial to anyone and that's why they're being rolled back. If we need to make larger and more holistic changes that's fine, but our initial reaction is that we put something out that we're not happy with and we're taking it back.

I started regularly doing incursions before the big nerf. i think I'd had been in them for about a month or so, maybe flown 5 or 6 times. Since then, I've heard the whine and bickering from both sides of the plate, those being from the bears and those from being the low/null runners. I NEVER see the low/null bars really dip at all, so really I don't see the reason low/null runners are bitching. THEY DON'T RUN THEM!

The biggest flaw with Incursions isn't just the amount of ISK they were producing, its that producing ISK is ALL they were good for. There was such talk of the 'incursion community' and how they enjoyed their challenging co-operative intelligent PvE but as soon as the ISK fountain was turned down that 'community' scattered to the four winds.

As a method of producing lasting bonds between individuals incursions haven't worked, instead we've seen an attitude of 'lets grind ISK with strangers then go our separate ways again'. That's the underlying issue here.

I think at the end of the day, we were unhappy with the way the changes turned out and now we're going to kill them. These are stopgaps though, we'll need to do some larger remodeling but that has to go on another timescale than "next week".

The reason such a community was built up around them is because

a) They provided good isk so, over time, competant fc`s started to run them with thier mates in good ships ( = good isk)

b) They are realtivly fun, by this I mean there more engaging than missions and other things like that.

Add to the incursion system, make more gameplay elements its a solid foundation.

P.S
If you nerf the isk down too much people will go back to doing other things, hence the community crumbles.

The biggest flaw with Incursions isn't just the amount of ISK they were producing, its that producing ISK is ALL they were good for. There was such talk of the 'incursion community' and how they enjoyed their challenging co-operative intelligent PvE but as soon as the ISK fountain was turned down that 'community' scattered to the four winds.

As a method of producing lasting bonds between individuals incursions haven't worked, instead we've seen an attitude of 'lets grind ISK with strangers then go our separate ways again'. That's the underlying issue here.

WE talked, joked and laughed, trolled each other and other fleets, and oh yeah made some isk while we were doing it. Most of that isk went to the PVP alts in various alliances and pirate corps in null/low. So when you null tards start whining about hi sec carebears making risk free isk you have no idea what your talking about. The communities stopped because some/most people just did not want to do assaults/hq and enjoyed the fast pace of the VG and the contest instead. Take the fun out of anything and see how long people will stay. The current state of Incursions is proof of that.

The problem is that you are assuming the community was derived solely of mission runners, it was not.

While yes, incursions were marginally more engaging than missions, would you argue that they were more "community driven" than null sec or wormholes? Because a very large number of the players in incursions were null sec or wormhole players.

The "community" wasn't something new, it was taking players from other communities in the game for an activity that was arguably less involved. Albeit considerably better paying.

This is the definition of theme park gameplay.

Bravo for posing a brilliant argument as to why high sec incursions were bad pre-escalation.

read: "I want my risk-free isk fountain back"

We are listening to the feedback about OTA and we are taking it seriously but that is a change we will have to look at for a future expansion, not one we can squeeze in now. We also don't want to make any further changes right now, please read my previous post about small steps

Well until you fix OTAs you changes will mean virtually nothing.
I use to run Vanguard sites alot. The day after the nerf I tried to run an OTA 3 hours later we finished the 3rd site. I never went back to vanguards. I trained half my corp on how to run vanguards and then the nerf and no one ever ran a vanguard site again after I explained about the new OTA setup.

Incursions cannot be risk free because to do them you got to undock. Anytime you undock you are at risk.

This is very true, a large portion of incursion runners I ran with were either pvp chars or obvious nullsec alts.

No i wouldnt say they are at all, its the big nullsec battles, the things individual corporations and even a single man can do in the game that really drive the story. Incursions were more like a mutual benifactor for everyone involved. A lot of times i saw 0.0 enemies together in the same incursion fleet.

Yes I also totally agree with you about the community, hence why when incursions droped out of favour, mass portions of the so called 'incursion community' went back to what ever they did before.

I for one would personally love it if it was the members collecting resources for thier corp / alliance. Similar to how resources are gathered in a RTS. Ive allways seen eve more as a real time strategy game than a space combat sim. Obviously has elemnts of both.
Incursions were at least something half decent to do pve wise.

Missions: Different missions available dependent on system security.
Exploration: Different sites available dependent on system security.
Anomalies: Different sites available dependent on system security.
Belt Ratting: Different NPCs available dependent on system security.

Incursions: Identical across all security regions with a nominal alteration in payout.

[quote=Simi Kusoni]

This is very true, a large portion of incursion runners I ran with were either pvp chars or obvious nullsec alts.

No i wouldnt say they are at all, its the big nullsec battles, the things individual corporations and even a single man can do in the game that really drive the story. Incursions were more like a mutual benifactor for everyone involved. A lot of times i saw 0.0 enemies together in the same incursion fleet.

Yes I also totally agree with you about the community, hence why when incursions droped out of favour, mass portions of the so called 'incursion community' went back to what ever they did before.

I for one would personally love it if it was the members collecting resources for thier corp / alliance. Similar to how resources are gathered in a RTS. Ive allways seen eve more as a real time strategy game than a space combat sim. Obviously has elemnts of both.
Incursions were at least something half decent to do pve wise.

I remember fleeting up with Reds on several occasions. Even someone I had killed recently. He told me in fleet chat he was looking forward to a rematch and was planning on using the incursion funds to pay for ships to do it in. I was doing the same thing saving up isk to buy stuff to support my null sec agenda(CAPs and a POS and POCOs and new drakes to get blown up in)

THIS IS THE PROBLEM PLEASE LISTEN TO THE FEEDBACK OF PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY RUN INCURSIONS CCP DEVs!!!
Its not the ISK of the Individual sites. The inluence bar is a secondary problem AFTER the OTA's can finally be tackled by less then shiney fleets but the 2 'rollbacks' you are proposing are NOT going to change the reason why Vanguards have FLOORED.

( NULL/lo SEC just cannot field the shiney ships required for OTA's due to the risk )

Here is an idea that you might be able to squeeze:

Instead of 10% increase payout to Vanguards, just increase OTAs by let's say 50% and/or tweak they curve so a 15 pilot fleet gets full payout (they are almost as hard and take as long as assaults right now). Now, this would just be just a temporary stopgap until you can rebalance them.

The idea is to make OTAs at the very least worth the grind. This change along the influence one could inject new life to all incursions short term and should be pretty easy to implement i guess, right?

As far as long term, you could make payouts dynamic based on number of sites/hr completed so incursions sites left untouched slowly increase their payout while blitzing fleets get paid a little less for each site they complete.

You have to laugh at times when you see players claiming the issue isn't with ISK, but with OTAs not being "fun".

The solution? Increase the payout of OTAs.

Here is an idea that you might be able to squeeze:

Instead of 10% increase payout to Vanguards, just increase OTAs by let's say 50% and/or tweak they curve so a 15 pilot fleet gets full payout (they are almost as hard and take as long as assaults right now). Now, this would just be just a temporary stopgap until you can rebalance them.

The idea is to make OTAs at the very least worth the grind. This change along the influence one could inject new life to all incursions short term and should be pretty easy to implement i guess, right?

As far as long term, you could make payouts dynamic based on number of sites/hr completed so incursions sites left untouched slowly increase their payout while blitzing fleets get paid a little less for each site they complete.

What do you do in EVE with the friends you made running incursions?

Besides running incursions, of course

They complain about the reduced ISK/hr ratio that made them all decide that running incursions was no longer "fun".

If these "incursion communities" were a real thing they'd have stuck together after the nerf and moved on as a community to other things. We'd be hearing a constant flow of stories about how they came together and had fun and bonded, and now they're running a wormspace operation in a C5, or carving out a name for themselves in a quiet corner of Aridia or Syndicate,and how glad they were that the Incursions gave them the opportunity to meet and get to know each other. Instead they melted away overnight when the isk tap was turned down.

Dear CCP,

that seems good, but there will be still the problem that larger sites won-¦t reward to effort. So it would be helpful if you add a 15% more payout for AS and 25% payout increasement for the HQ. Then lets hope that all FCs, who decide to boycott incursions will come back and that the playerbase to recruite from will be normalized through the changes you will implement.

They complain about the reduced ISK/hr ratio that made them all decide that running incursions was no longer "fun".

If these "incursion communities" were a real thing they'd have stuck together after the nerf and moved on as a community to other things. We'd be hearing a constant flow of stories about how they came together and had fun and bonded, and now they're running a wormspace operation in a C5, or carving out a name for themselves in a quiet corner of Aridia or Syndicate,and how glad they were that the Incursions gave them the opportunity to meet and get to know each other. Instead they melted away overnight when the isk tap was turned down.

So basically you want high sec incursion income to surpass low sec again?

No.

Just to note, some of us are still running. We may not be nearly as numerous, but we're far from completely gone.

* The Incursion story line - will this ever end? There's no real sense of danger. **** needs to get real.

* "NPC" space doesn't feel very alive. There are no convoys anymore, etc... Why don't the NPCs react to all of this bad stuff going on in their space?

* If the Sansha are invading, wouldn't CONCORD be busy dealing with that and not capsuleers? (totally legit question)

Going by Selene's latest blog post the CSM and CCP discussed some of the real problems with Incursions (full article here: http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com):



This is what CCP should be working on fixing with Incursions, particularly the last point. Either Incursions in High Sec lose CONCORD protection or High Sec should lose Incursions.

I think at the end of the day, we were unhappy with the way the changes turned out and now we're going to kill them. These are stopgaps though, we'll need to do some larger remodeling but that has to go on another timescale than "next week".

Incursions that loose Concord protection are inherently not highsec incursions. Either way you are asking for the same thing.

" But the fact remains that CCP essentially murdered what was previously a growing, vibrant player community. "
http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/06/rollback.html

I think he knows

Yes, in terms of CONCORD mechanics they're largely the same thing, but in a broader sense they are not. High Sec could have Incursions which drop security to the same as Low Sec or NPC Null sec for the duration, but that would not make those Incursions identical in experience to Incursions in already existing Low or Null Sec as it's both temporary and more dynamic.

As general design philosophy I believe CCP should abandon principally defining space by the degree of NPC/game mechanic security provided, and instead think of of it terms of Player Controlled or NPC Controlled. A more pure sandbox player generated politics vs Lore based NPC politics, but neither should automatically mean more safety for the player. The idea mostly proliferated by players themselves of a near or absolutely safe High Sec should be publicly dispatched by CCP in such a way that such treachery against the spirit of Sandbox MMOs may never resurface here again. Mostly safe trade areas, fine. Safe newbie starter zones fine. However, all desirable resources, the "farms and fields" should be found in dangerous space whether that space is NPC or player controlled. They can start with Incursions!

So basically you want high sec incursion income to surpass low sec again?

No.

I personally think whatever changes made to hisec incursions should be completely separate from low/nullsec incursions.

CCP did the lazy and dumb blanket nerf that made low/null incursions bad to the point that its not even worth running anymore.

Low and Nullsec incursions should have their sites and mechanics back to pre-escalation to inferno level.

These are just short term fixes to get us back to a place where people are happier with Incursions. We will look at further changes in the future - one step at a time.

Dear Simi Kusoni,


This will be much lesser then before the nerf of death. And it will complete the goal CCP had, with bringing more people into larger sites. But there are currently 2 major problems for larger sites:

1. Too small playerbase to recruite from
2. Payout not really more or less then small VGs

And last but not least, of course a 20+ man fleet should have the possibility to earn more money as a singleplayer in lowsec. Becuase Highsec does not mean there is less risk.

And yet... There is less risk.

Rolling back the 10% doesn't change really much.
- Fix OTA
- Boost Assaults and HQ rewards

AS and HQ pay too less compared to VG. They are more risk, need more people, need more work, need more attention. So they should pay better.

Dear Forum,

VG are already pretty nerfed, so much that to less people running incursions to recruite for larger sites. I always said nerf VG and buff AS/HQ. CCP only did one thing a that really heavy.

I am waiting to see how little impact wiping out Incursions had on the overall ISK generation, so the anti-high sec folks can scream "nerf L4's!!!". But maybe they have to wait on that one. Given the significant drop in people logging on, there will be a decent drop in economic activity from that alone, which will not give them a strong base to argue from.

You do of course realise the incursion nerf wasn't an attempt to curb ISK faucets, but a simple risk/reward rebalancing, right?

LOL....still using that tired old line?

It reminds me of another grand farce.
****** ******* has weapons of mass destruction.
Oh, he doesn't have any?
Never mind, it was about regime change to make the world a safer place.

Same concept as the crap you keep spewing out.

What does that have to do with the motivations behind some random computer game rebalancing?

"Some random country lied about it's motivations for going to war, therefore CCP's primary motivation for nerfing incursions was to curb inflation".

I am honestly not following that line of reasoning.

there is only ONE word to discribe incurtions, just a "wreste" of time...

we was starting to run them a year ago.. we was fighting to figuer out how to kill sansha as fast as posible, WE invested houres and munths of Skill points into skill's needed to make this happen.

We invested Tons of ISK into the needed ship's and fitting for this to happen.

WE are left with nothing.. CCP was not giveing us an Nerf of 10 % pay out. it's an nerf of -80% profit.

pilotes running VG incurtions now.. thy spent 5 times more the ammo and 3 times more time and the pay out is 10% lower,
you need a fleet of 10 ppl to run. a fleet will not work if your missing just 1 pilot.

this makes lvl 4 mission more profitable.. and Result.. ppl don't fly incurtions anymore...

it's true Shiny fleet's was running them at 4 min's flat. but now you have ppl sitting all day waiting for the 1 missing pilot to be able to run them..

to run incurtions you needed a pilot who was able to fly in all faction of space..
must players have an "extra" accound to do this, but that's not needed anymore.. sinds this is not makeing the asme profit anymore.

guy's REMEMBER EVE is a game.. play the game to have fun.. and enjoy your time online.. don't cry about what was going on befor.. adobt to the changes.. and find something else to do .. go out and Exploit the EASY system of Ganking .. even with Concord right next to you.. THY still don't bother to defend a mining ship getting shot at.. in high seq. OOH and remember " it is not theft to run of with an empty ship is space. but it's theft to take a metal scrap from a dead rat..

just stop...look at the prices of EVERYTHING in the game and then think about what you've just said...incursions have ruined the economy. that and ccp's messing with the dronelands and making them not drop alloys. maybe they need to start nerfing it more so people go back to mining and bring the prices of ships back down. i remember before incursions when you could fully fit a drake/cane/brutix for less than 50 mil. now the HULL is 65ish. quit whining about the ammo you've spent money on because its YOUR fault its gone up in price

And the storyline needs to be developed i mean how many armies in RL would continue fighting when they lose their ships at astronomical rates.

More broken promises...
"We promised to monitor the result of these changes and we stand to our promise: after evaluating both your feedback and our internal metrics, we have decided to roll back a few changes. With so many tweaks made at once, it became very difficult to determine the success of each individual change. We have rolled back the following changes:

GÇóLowering the reward for vanguard sites by 10%
"
Ever hear of QA?
Before the escalation NERF HI SEC Vanguard Incursions paid out 10.5 million and now they pay out 10.395 million... CCP TROLOLOLO

But better then quival over an effective 9% rollback instead of the full 10% why don't we look at the real numbers? Where are they?
The Override Transfer Arrays have made the Vanguards UNBALANCED there is no other 'individual change' which more UNSUCCESFFULLY KILLED THE INCURSION COMMUNITIES. How is that for feedback?

So much for you quitting the game, eh?

this... wtf happened here? why is this guy back?

More broken promises...

The partial un nerf (rollback) does not address the real issue which floored the Vanguards: OTA's are now too dificult and are stacking like pancakes.
I've unsubscribed and my subscription time runs out in under 24 hours

Here's an update on the balancing of Vanguards: as of 0625 Eve time in the Norgoh constellation 27 OTAs, 0 NCO's, 0 NMC's. oh well I guess in 4 hours 35 minutes the sites will reset. Since its a holiday in the states I expect the OTA 'balance' will be near 100% OTAs ~12 hours before DT instead of ~18 hours today.
Hmmmmm I wonder why the Vanguards have floored CCP Soundwave, you want to guess? Wait another 2 months maybe then you'll see a pattern

You folks don't get it.

Incursions being fixed is a long, long way off.
CCP now uses the rule where the urgency to fix something is inversely proportional to the impact it has on the economic generation capability of high sec.

The dev's have to::

Fix UI
Fix FW
Fix War Dec mechanics
Fix POS's (lead dev's pet project, do your forum research on that)
Rebalance T1 frigs and cruisers
Mess with mining barges
Tweak tech mining to give the illusion of fairness

all before getting around to sorting out Incursions.

Also, looking forward to the May, and now June, economic numbers.
I am waiting to see how little impact wiping out Incursions had on the overall ISK generation, so the anti-high sec folks can scream "nerf L4's!!!". But maybe they have to wait on that one. Given the significant drop in people logging on, there will be a decent drop in economic activity from that alone, which will not give them a strong base to argue from.

What is the status and do we get an update?

Why cant we roll back the good ole days to where it was isk worthy to run incursions.