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Cynoslaver
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Posted - 2009.12.15 20:06:00 -
[1]
There really needs to be some sort of cap fallout or cloak timer to prevent 'overnight' 24/7 around the clock afk griefing in 0.0 space.
I'm all for griefing people and killing them and hunting them, but it is pretty f'in ridiculous that cloak has absolutely no counters. There's no realistic way to hunt the person, there's no chance their cloak will fail, nothing.
I mean jesus after they've been afk cloaking for 2 hours at least give the cloak a CHANCE to fail What the hell is ccp thinking that this somehow adds somethign to the game? And spare me the BS about "welcome to 0.0 space" bla bla typical stupid comments, make a real argument here if you think this is right.
everything else has some sort of counter or something you can do, however hard, to fight back.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2009.12.15 20:10:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 15/12/2009 20:11:01
Originally by: Cynoslaver everything else has some sort of counter or something you can do, however hard, to fight back.
So does cloaking. Maybe one day you will figure out how. You could start by searching these forums for one of the thousands of threads just like yours, but where someone described strategies for dealing with them.
Oh, and welcome to 0.0. -- He said "The President is near."
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Cynoslaver
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Posted - 2009.12.15 20:20:00 -
[3]
Notice it's always idiots like this that reply to a post, say absolutely nothing meaningful or useful in any way, hint at such amazing knowledge they have (but ironically aren't willing to share) and pretend they know a damned thing.
"local" isn't a counter to afk cloaking, afk cloaking is just stupid, it's not strategic. Heaven forbid an eve player actually have to "play" ti grief someone (gasp)...
welcome to stupidity..oh wait you were already there.
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Timothy Heigel
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Posted - 2009.12.15 20:27:00 -
[4]
this thread can only end in tears.
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2009.12.15 20:30:00 -
[5]
Note that in EVE, if something gives you an advantage, you have to give up something to get it. If you want to do more damage, you have to sacrifice a lo-slot for a damage mod. If you want the superior speed of a Vagabond over a Stabber, you have to pay more money for it. If you want the ability to go completely invisible, you take a constant penalty to scan resolution, can't target for 20 seconds after you decloak and pretty much can't do anything except watch while you're cloaked - even moving is slow and inadequate. The few ships that are able to circumvent these limitations (i.e. cov-ops, etc.) are either horrendously unsuited for combat (e.g. covert ops), used for a role other than direct combat (e.g. force recons), suited only to one or two very specific combat roles (e.g. stealth bombers) or so prohibitively expensive that using them in combat is tantamount to madness (e.g. blackops).
So in essence, we get back to the idea of giving up something to gain an advantage. The advantage of cloaking is obvious - being undetectable and untargetable, thus providing the ability to observe the enemy without the enemy's knowledge. Contrariwise, what do you give up by being able to cloak?
PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING ELSE.
Back when I was in 0.0, I was taught very quickly to discern, when I saw a neutral in local, between an actual threat and an AFK cloaker. If people want to pay $15.00 US a month to be the invisible man watching me while I take a shower, let them. -----
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Cynoslaver
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Posted - 2009.12.15 20:40:00 -
[6]
you miss the point totally
any number of corpses take alt accounts, completely afk, and just put 1 cloaker in each system of a corp they dont like. Everyone know sthis happens, they don't even have to play the game, they just set it up on a comp they aren't using, on an alt they aren't using (hell i can see 2 of them right now)
they've been in these systems for probably 4 days straight, but depending on your setup, or the size of your group, it DOES effect what you can do.
The very concept is completely ridiculous that you can "not play the game' and yet have this kind of an impact. People have proposed cloak timers (stupid idea) but jesus christ, what MMO out there doesn't have 'activity' timers. wow puts you afk, lotro logs you out, as do most games, if you sit on your ass doing nothing.
half the time you can't login cuz the eve cluster is full...well gee...how about we force logout the peopel who are afk for 10 hours straight?
I mean seriosuly if someone could actually give me a logical reason this should be allowed with no penalties please speak up.
the point is you can't, the only thing you'll say is "umm golly if a cloaker can be found, then what's the point of cloaking';
completley stuipd logic, it's like saying wow....if im a thief and i use stealth but someone can spot me...what'st he point of even trying to stealth around?
if im a criminal and am trying to cheat you, but you can catch me...then why should crime even exist? it's like 10 year old logic for griefers to keep griefing with no effort
if you want to grief fine, but at least be at your keyboard to do it
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2009.12.15 20:54:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 15/12/2009 20:56:12
lol
Threads like this belong in the "Missions & Complexes" forum
Quote:
if you want to grief fine, but at least be at your keyboard to do it
It's not griefing - area denial is a strategy as old as warfare itself.
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Mining FriendlyBear
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Posted - 2009.12.15 20:58:00 -
[8]
YESTERDAY I FLEW TO PROVIDENCE 0.0 SAFE SPACE AND WAS BLOWN UP WHILE MINING IN KBP SYSTEM. THIS IS AGAINST MECHANICS OF SAFE SPACE NRDS AND I WOULD LIKE FILE FOR REIMBURSEMENT WITH CCP.
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:00:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cynoslaver any number of corpses take alt accounts, completely afk, and just put 1 cloaker in each system of a corp they dont like. Everyone know sthis happens, they don't even have to play the game, they just set it up on a comp they aren't using, on an alt they aren't using (hell i can see 2 of them right now)
Oh well, that's them spending $15 a month to put cloakers in your system. They're still paying to "play" the game. Also, I'd like to point out that if you know they're AFK cloakers and thus won't do anything, what's the problem?
Originally by: Cynoslaver they've been in these systems for probably 4 days straight, but depending on your setup, or the size of your group, it DOES effect what you can do.
How? Again, if you know they're AFK cloakers, why should it matter?
Originally by: Cynoslaver The very concept is completely ridiculous that you can "not play the game' and yet have this kind of an impact.
One could argue that it's equally ridiculous that you can increase your skills without taking any action, or even being logged in, but I have yet to actually see a serious complaint about that on these forums.
Originally by: Cynoslaver I mean seriosuly if someone could actually give me a logical reason this should be allowed with no penalties please speak up.
Can you give me a logical answer to this question? What exactly, other than affect your willingness to undock certain ships or take certain actions? Do the AFK cloakers have any in-game mechanical effect on you? Essentially, what I'm asking, is can you justify to me how AFK cloakers are anything other than specifically your problem, in that you have a problem with them? It's a depressingly common tactic for people playing EVE to paint their own problems with the game or things they dislike about it as things that "everyone" dislikes or has a problem with. -----
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Avoida
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Cynoslaver Notice it's always idiots like me that start these threads, say absolutely nothing meaningful or useful in any way, hint at such amazing knowledge they have (but ironically aren't willing to share) and pretend they know a damned thing.
welcome me to stupidity..oh wait I am already there.
Fixed your post..
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Cynoslaver
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:17:00 -
[11]
oh yeah im sure in all warefare you could deny areas to your enemies while being asleep
f'ing idiot
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Cynoslaver
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:23:00 -
[12]
The answer is quite simple. He can come out of his sleep afk bull **** any time he wants to to prey on people
heaven forbid he has to actually login first to do that.
I notice a common thread in ALL of these posts about this topic and all of the responses (always by the idiots doing it) is that none of them address the issue - afk cloaking - they just whine and ***** and insult about 0.0 and get used to it. They keep posting the same stupid comments without ever making an argument to justify why they can do it.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:25:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 15/12/2009 21:25:46
Originally by: Cynoslaver oh yeah im sure in all warefare you could deny areas to your enemies while being asleep
f'ing idiot
Don't think I'm the idiot here.
AFK cloaking is exactly equivalent to mining a harbor or submarine warfare - any given ship is probably fine, but it forces one to consider a major risk, and as such curtails commercial traffic substantially.
Pretty sure guys slept on subs, to say the least of mine teams sleeping easy back on dry land.
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Avoida
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cynoslaver oh yeah im sure in all warefare you could deny areas to your enemies while being asleep
f'ing idiot
You being stupid and completely incapable of dealing with a cloaked AFK ship who's pilot is sleeping is only your problem. There are innumerable simple counters to cloaked ships (even the dreaded cloaked but active pilot) which you have not yet learned. Do some research or , barring that, try and get a few of those oxygen deprived synapses inside that stale marshmallow planted on top of your neck to think strategically.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:31:00 -
[15]
What's the big deal? You can't rat in a ship that is either too quick for a cloaker to lock, tanked enough withstand an attack, has enough dps to kill cloaker, or cheap enough not to worry about losing?
Or you don't have any safespots in system to bail to? Or you can't align to anything while ratting? Or you have no friends to back you up?
afk cloakers add some risk (and excitement) to an otherwise boring task.
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Cynoslaver
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:32:00 -
[16]
Avoida "Hah I have all these 1337 tactics you just dont know about...I won't mention them here, because like...you know I earned all these things through hard work. I knwo the answer, I just wont tell"
hmm sounds like 5th grade, a: yer full of **** b: your'e liing. There's nothing you can do moron, if he is truely afk he's at a bookmark in dead space. You can't bomb him out idiot. If hes' not afk then he doesn't have to worry about it.
Other guy about that: An even more stupid combat. Just look at your argument.....so you're making the argument that it's jsut like a submarine (which is by NO ways undetectable, laughably not). And that becuase some of the crew sleep in rotations, thus the argument is that it's perfectly acceptable to afk grief cloak while yer not playing eve ;)
Wow...I mean...I'm the idiot here but I just can't argue with that logic...it's probably because it's too intelligent that I simply can't think of any way that it doesn't make sense.... ..... ..... .... lollercaust
wow...next stupid moron who doesn't feel he needs to use actual tactics to grief people please step forward.....what's next......the gun who's bullets fall asleep! :) lol
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Timothy Heigel this thread can only end in tears.
Well, that's the way it started, so it would be fitting. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cynoslaver
if im a criminal and am trying to cheat you, but you can catch me...then why should crime even exist? it's like 10 year old logic for griefers to keep griefing with no effort
if you want to grief fine, but at least be at your keyboard to do it
How is it even griefing if the person is AFK? There has to be a person at the keyboard to gather intel.
Griefing requires action on the part of the griefer. A cloaked ship can only give a head-count and smack in local.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:38:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Cynoslaver
hmm sounds like 5th grade, a: yer full of **** b: your'e liing. There's nothing you can do moron, if he is truely afk he's at a bookmark in dead space. You can't bomb him out idiot. If hes' not afk then he doesn't have to worry about it.
[tear posting removed]
lollercaust
wow...next stupid moron who doesn't feel he needs to use actual tactics to grief people please step forward.....what's next......the gun who's bullets fall asleep! :) lol
No one who unironically says "lollercaust" can ever call anyone dumb. That is the first rule of the internet.
Second, I'll just post this here again and remove the word submarine, because you read some Clancy novel recently and are under the impression submarines are really easy to find (and I guess they were also easy to find in WWI, when submarines as method of area denial was first employed)
Originally by: me
AFK cloaking is exactly equivalent to mining a harbor or submarine warfare - any given ship is probably fine, but it forces one to consider a major risk, and as such curtails commercial traffic substantially.
Pretty sure guys slept on subs, to say the least of mine teams sleeping easy back on dry land.
edit to add: I'm trying to think of a single area denial strategy that the perpetrators can't sleep on. Mines? Nope. Burning a field? Nope. I'm at a loss here. What exactly are you talking about? What area denial strategy requires being present and awake continuously?
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:44:00 -
[20]
Stop abusing local chat as your intel tool and the issue goes away.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:56:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Stop abusing local chat as your intel tool and the issue goes away.
This.
Lowsec and 0.0 are not safe space, deal with it. Either be prepared to fight at any time in case the cloaked ship decides to attack, or go back to highsec where you can farm your level 4s with zero risk. ----------- FREE ABATHUR - HAVING GOOD 0.0 IDEAS IS NOT A CRIME.
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Jane Hardcore
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Posted - 2009.12.15 21:57:00 -
[22]
WoW is THAT WAY ----> |
Cynoslaver
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Posted - 2009.12.15 22:06:00 -
[23]
Ahh...yes, stop abusing local chat as your intel tool. after all it's your god given right to kill with no risk, roam with no threat, etc etc ;)
again...no actual logical arguments or anything worth sh*t here, just a bunch of flamming nonsense and insults to the "im so cool and this is how i roll you should deal with it'
that kind of says everything, whtn the crybabies abusing a broken mechanic don't want it to change, all they can really do is flame and make stupid comments, never actually debate the justification for it...f'in infants.
and 'easy to find' and 'impossible ti find' are 2 differnt things.
and the pathetic argument about 'well if he's afk' that's the whole point moron, because ccp ALLOWS players to afk in a system 24/7 then their enemies have to play as if he's not afk 24/7, aka it's a broken mechanic, period
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2009.12.15 22:13:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 15/12/2009 22:18:16
Originally by: Cynoslaver Avoida "Hah I have all these 1337 tactics you just dont know about...I won't mention them here, because like...you know I earned all these things through hard work. I knwo the answer, I just wont tell"
You haven't done or said anything that'd make you deserve to know.
Here's an example of how to post a question and get an answer:
Quote:
Subject: AFK cloaker strategy
Hi. I'm a n00b in an alliance and we have some AFK cloakers in our system. Can you share any tactics on how to counter these guys? They really put a damper on our mining and ratting ops. We've tried this/that/the other thing but haven't managed to get him. Is there a better tactic or do we just need more patience?
Instead, you posted a crybaby rant about a well-established game mechanic that has been around for years, and then impugned everyone before they even replied, and then wonder why the hostility. Classic troll behavior. You got what you asked for. Now eat ****, loser.
-- He said "The President is near."
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2009.12.15 22:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Cynoslaver Ahh...yes, stop abusing local chat as your intel tool. after all it's your god given right to kill with no risk, roam with no threat, etc etc ;)
again...no actual logical arguments or anything worth sh*t here, just a bunch of flamming nonsense and insults to the "im so cool and this is how i roll you should deal with it'
that kind of says everything, whtn the crybabies abusing a broken mechanic don't want it to change, all they can really do is flame and make stupid comments, never actually debate the justification for it...f'in infants.
and 'easy to find' and 'impossible ti find' are 2 differnt things.
and the pathetic argument about 'well if he's afk' that's the whole point moron, because ccp ALLOWS players to afk in a system 24/7 then their enemies have to play as if he's not afk 24/7, aka it's a broken mechanic, period
I could point out you are completely ignoring my point for the second time, but instead I'm going to make fun of your horrible, horrible posting and extremely tenuous grasp of the english language.
Is it even legal for someone under 18 to play this game? Does your mom know you hang out on internet forums typing words like the s - h - asterisk - t word? Because that word is bad.
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Planetary Genocide
Gallente CNK Manufacturing Co
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Posted - 2009.12.15 22:17:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Planetary Genocide on 15/12/2009 22:17:15 I don't understand what the deal is here. So, you're all ****y and whiny because there's somebody, cloaked, in your system, not doing jack $#!T.
I will now turn on caps lock.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN FIGHT BACK? WHAT THE HELL IS THERE TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST?!?!??! THE CLOAKER IS JUST SITTING THERE, NOT DOING ****! YOU CAN'T FIGHT BACK AGAINST SOMETHING THAT HASN'T TAKEN A SINGLE GODDAMN ACTION AGAINST YOU! CLOAKING HAS COUNTERS! FIND HIS SAFESPOT WHEN HE LOGS ON, SEED IT WITH ANCHORED CANS, AND WATCH HIM APPEAR WHEN HE BUMPS INTO THEM! THAT'S A COUNTER! BUT DON'T COME TO THE FORUMS CRYING ABOUT HOW THERE'S A SCARY MAN IN A CLOAKED SHIP WATCHING YOU CRY IN LOCAL BECAUSE YOU CAN'T FIND HIM!!!!
/rage and caps.
And this definitely adds something to the game. If not denial of land tactics (which are mostly passive tactics; mines, scorched earth policies, and nuking come to mind), then it's espionage, and to catch a spy you have to be clever enough to expose him. In this case, that involves going on the forum, looking through a few pages, and finding mention of a way to decloak someone, i.e. setting an anchored container for them to bump into.
And if **** goes badly, you can just warp to all the planets and moons, set off a few smartbombs, and see what you hit. But please, please, don't bring your BAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWing here, we'll just continue to insult you.
Oh, and it's not "enemy" space unless you own sov, and then, even if you own sov, it's only enemy space to someone if you enforce the laws that you decide to put in place. ______________
RAWRRR |
Rail Gun
Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.12.15 22:26:00 -
[27]
Cynoslaver, who is your main? I have some spare account's with afk cloakers...
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Cynoslaver
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Posted - 2009.12.15 22:28:00 -
[28]
Do you idiots even play this game?
anchor some cans so he can bump into theM?
smart bomb some planets?
what kind of morons are you? You must run into some REALLY stupid griefers for this to work. Even if you could POSSIBLY find their safe spot, which is rpobably the dumbest comment i've EVER seen posted anywhere on this form...ever...and I mean ever.
space is big idiots...that's why they call it space
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2009.12.15 22:31:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Cynoslaver wow...next stupid moron who doesn't feel he needs to use actual tactics to grief people please step forward....
You apparently feel you should not have to do any tactics to defeat the AFK cloaker. That's called Game Balance. You're both just as lazy. Pot meet kettle, you two have a lot in common.
-- He said "The President is near."
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Molly Milli0ns
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Posted - 2009.12.15 22:32:00 -
[30]
Every time someone makes one of these threads, baby Jesus cries. And Christmas is right around the corner. You animal.
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.12.15 22:57:00 -
[31]
Cynoslaver, I suggest you cool off somewhere. I think you are a bit too hostile and insulting for a normal debate about this subject.
*clicks report button* ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2009.12.15 23:27:00 -
[32]
Merdaneth saves the day! -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.12.15 23:33:00 -
[33]
This thread makes me want to afk/cloak/sleepgrief the op.
True Knowledge |
AFK Cloaker
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.12.16 00:11:00 -
[34]
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Aphoticus
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Posted - 2009.12.16 00:18:00 -
[35]
There are two perspectives here, a real-world and a role-world perspective.
The fact is, that the player of the cloaked ship, although afk, is entertaining a role in a universe where, if you really wanted to play the game for the game's sake, would not be perceived as afk, but an ongoing threat. Do pod-pilots sleep?
Your arguments are based on game mechanics and you want people to argue a point with justification that meets your approval?
Some people play this game, and perhaps a lot of them, to have an experience, a role-world perspective, immersed, and to escape that real-world concept you keep expressing.
Game mechanic wise, the arguments can go for or against it. As far as for it being reasonable, the argument is simple; technology has not advanced far enough for there to be a detection system.
In a real-world concept, humanity is often inventing things that have no means to deal with the effects until such time as it becomes a danger to humanity. Even then, depending on economics, may not see the light of day. This is no different.
If you want to change the game mechanics, I would suggest putting that anger and frustration into learning something about what it takes to code these kinds of things, and offer CCP an alternative beyond your preconceived notions of what a good argument is. Features and Ideas comes to mind.
If you are just venting, you just did the same thing everyone else did in this thread; amounting to nothing at all. The other 50k+ of us will keep on playing; perhaps never having read this.
Good luck.
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Lord Xanthoh
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Posted - 2009.12.16 01:26:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Cynoslaver Do you idiots even play this game?
anchor some cans so he can bump into theM?
smart bomb some planets?
what kind of morons are you? You must run into some REALLY stupid griefers for this to work. Even if you could POSSIBLY find their safe spot, which is rpobably the dumbest comment i've EVER seen posted anywhere on this form...ever...and I mean ever.
space is big idiots...that's why they call it space
Hahahahahhahaaa! You must either be a troll or the most pathetic Eve character yet. Man/woman, stop talking, bend over to your PC case and switch the Off button. Believe me if I say that you will feel much better this way.
You are so lazy in seaking the knowledge to play this game properly that you will soon start a thread asking why the heck your ship flies through planets or why projectiles have a range limit in SPACE...
You can either continue entertaining us wirh your pityful nonsense or mute yourseld until the end of Eve times. What a sad sissi whining about harmless afk cloakers. LOL
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Avoida
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Posted - 2009.12.16 03:04:00 -
[37]
Cynoslaver, Member of Perkone for 10 days. Former member of Nailortech Industries in RAZOR Alliance (that explains a lot.) Oh, and that corporation? Former member of Elysium and Ethereal Dawn and Ka-Tet and Veritas Immortalis.
Basically one laughable alliance after another.
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ChipMo
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.12.16 03:32:00 -
[38]
FYI you can't cloak 24/7. Downtime decloaks you.
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Qolthus
Children of Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.12.16 04:10:00 -
[39]
Quote: The sleazebag is currently at Bairshir IV - Moon 11 - Thukker Mix Factory station in the Bairshir system, Sazdih constellation of Derelik region.
I wasnt going to do that... but well then you just had to get more and more abusive.
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Al Choholic
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Posted - 2009.12.16 06:10:00 -
[40]
Wow OP is a lil butt hurt. Did some big bad cloaker pop ur pretty ship?
I think you can talk to Dr. Phil about it i'm sure he'd make ur butt feel better
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Havohej
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.12.16 07:17:00 -
[41]
I like the part where nobody has insulted the OP in the entire thread and yet he keeps spamming about how "all you AFK cloakers do is flame and insult people on the forum", meanwhile posting all manner of misspelled insults himself.
Du'uma Fiisi is Recruiting |
Mur Mis
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Posted - 2009.12.16 10:12:00 -
[42]
you forgot the rule:
Better 1 afk cloaker in the system, Then 10 bs on the station:)
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RichieAlt
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Posted - 2009.12.16 11:22:00 -
[43]
LOL well I for one LOVE being a cloaker from hell, lol
I love a cloaky Ishtar for ratting, plexing!
I love that fact that im in a system by myself and the system is mine..
Nasties drop into local, warp to a safe and cloak, Nasties try to find you give up move on, back to ratting.
The point of a cloak is NOT everyone wants to PvP, and if I dident have a cloak ide either have to stay in a system with friendies for safty in numbers, and IMO that doesent work and the ratting most often sucks, or if im in a system by myself ide have to start moving arround contantly to avoid probing, I like cloakes and hope they stay the way they are!!
I get the feeling most of you are ****ed at the cloaker camper that sitting in YOUR loacl looking for an easy kill, Well again they are camping you , but they arnt doing anything but sitting there and thats bound to get boaring sooner or latter, best option is to go find your own quite system.
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Haramir Haleths
Caldari Nutella Bande
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Posted - 2009.12.16 11:22:00 -
[44]
This will be investigated
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Yarton Killmore
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Posted - 2009.12.16 11:34:00 -
[45]
Working as intended... AFK Cloaker has annoyed you so much you have run to the forums crying as you go :p
Epic!
(p.s. love afk cloaking in a system with wt's)
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2009.12.16 14:00:00 -
[46]
I quite agree. Nerf local.
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.12.16 14:07:00 -
[47]
If they are AFK, how they can do anything to you? +1 to remove local -b |
Fabrienne
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Posted - 2009.12.16 14:38:00 -
[48]
First things first. Cynoslaver, there is absolutely no need for the insults you are throwing around. You really need to calm down and take a chill pill.
As a Cov-Ops pilot I feel I am more than qualified to respond to this. I will break it down into bullet statements to make it easy to understand.
1. No one can afk cloak for 4 days. The daily downtime prevents that. 2. Cloaks are not perfect. There are times when cloaks will turn off for absolutely no reason. Does it happen often? No, but it does happen. 3. Just because someone is sitting cloaked in the system you are in does not mean he/she is an afk cloaker. I, myself have sat cloaked in a system in excess of 20 hours gathering intel, setting up safe spots and finding the safe spots of others. 4. AFK cloaking is not griefing. Griefing is a term that means action against another player that makes the target feel like being targeted on purpose or for the sake of harassment only. Afk cloaking does not meet that definition. 5. Your argument that afk cloaking is not a valid tactical or strategic tactic is invalid. The simple fact that you are so upset over it proves that it is working. The objective is to make you change and alter how you do business. If by sitting in a system cloaked all day makes fewer people go out and mine minerals, run missions, go ratting etc. then I have succeeded in my mission.
There are tactics to discover cloaked ships. What works for one person may not work for you. Experiment a bit and discover a method that works for you. Remember that there are things that are given up in order to be cloaked. For instance:
1. Cov-Ops ships have to de-cloak in order to scan, dock or jump out of system. As long as they are cloaked, they can do nothing except watch. 2. Stealth Bombers and Cov-Ops frigs are paper thin. Catch one uncloaked and it will go down quickly......very quickly. This is also the case with recon ships as well (just not to the same degree). If you tank one good then it is unable to do it's recon job. 3. Black Ops ships cannot warp while cloaked. They are unable to fit the "good" cloak.
Do some research and calm down. CCP has better things to do with their time like un-nerfing missiles.
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc
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Posted - 2009.12.16 14:45:00 -
[49]
OP is correct (although the name calling is unneeded), replyers are doing their utter best to shout read hard hoping the OP will go away and CCP won't awake and take a look at the problem.
There's been many threads on it and while most of my characters can fly cloakers and I've used the scouting/afk cloaking system a lot it's just too good a tool to annoy others with. We all know it, OP knows it, replyers know it it's just CCP that needs to get it's ass in gear.
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service |
Ohhh Matron
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Posted - 2009.12.16 14:55:00 -
[50]
I think this is a perfectly valid warfare tactic.
It causes (obvious from the posts) psychological issues for the enemy and makes them very wary. It also provides strategic and tactical info.
This is exactly the same tactic used by the German Navy in WW2. At times there were only a couple of U-boats in the whole of the Atlantic but it made the allies very nervous and act like there were maybe dozens of them.
They knew they were out there but didnt know where or how many till much later in the war.
I endorse it.
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Madame Bloviator
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Posted - 2009.12.16 15:17:00 -
[51]
know what i love? tough guys who tell everyone carebears suck and only real men can live in 0.0, but then whine about cloaked ships. its a cloaked ship. what u are so worked up about? think about it, if pilot is afk, he cant do anything. |
Fat Uncle
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Posted - 2009.12.16 15:51:00 -
[52]
Is this the new 'Whining and Tactics' forum?
<fire short burst of the random smiley generator>
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Johnny Kettle
PonysPonysPonys
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Posted - 2009.12.16 15:57:00 -
[53]
Hmmm... this initially looked like it could be real, but your troll-fu just wasn't up to scratch and you tried too hard. Next time actually spell & punctuate properly, it's a break from obvious troll tradition and may get more people to believe you.
B- Could do better.
..or of course this could be real. In which case there is some advice:
AFK cloaking works very well, and is a wonderful SAD (Strategic Area Denial) tactic, but that doesn't mean it's a bug or a problem or whatever. Snipe HAC gangs seem to be a good tactic too, but you don't see forum threads whining about them (much...).You will only ever get killed by a cloaky-lurker if you foolishly drop the vital EVE state of mind - Rampant Paranoia.
Find out what sort of ship they're in and plan for it, watch your scanner and don't be stupid and you'll be fine.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.12.16 16:41:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Marko Riva OP is correct (although the name calling is unneeded), replyers are doing their utter best to shout read hard hoping the OP will go away and CCP won't awake and take a look at the problem.
There's been many threads on it and while most of my characters can fly cloakers and I've used the scouting/afk cloaking system a lot it's just too good a tool to annoy others with. We all know it, OP knows it, replyers know it it's just CCP that needs to get it's ass in gear and fix Local so this tactic doesn't work.
Fixed.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.16 17:08:00 -
[55]
Originally by: AFK Cloaker
BAH! You're in this thread and I can't do anything about it!
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K'racker
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.12.16 17:16:00 -
[56]
one time, while i was sleeping, i think i griefed my pillow..
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.12.16 17:39:00 -
[57]
I've heard wormhole space is even worse.
There are just as much afk cloakers there (if not more) as in 0.0, but in wormhole space you are completely defenseless against them, since in 0.0 you can at least identify the threat (amount of afk cloakers, character ages, standings) and move to a system without an afk cloaker.
Wormhole space is horrible, AFK cloakers are completely invisible and invulnerable there! You might have twenty 60million skill points AFK cloakers only a few AU away when you are ratting in wormhole space and you can't do anything about them! ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Absolom Hues
Gallente Sanctum Scala Caeli Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2009.12.16 18:43:00 -
[58]
Originally by: AFK Cloaker
This was the funiest reply to the whole thread!!! ___
"Thats all I gots to say about that" |
robert surtees
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Posted - 2009.12.16 19:33:00 -
[59]
And what about cloaked ships just sitting 200km away from a gate monitoring traffic (not afk)? Are these to be considered unfair/greifing/(insert emo-rage term here)? And if not, how do CCP tell the difference? Next time, before you have a tantrum about a game-mechanic that doesn't suit you, and demand it be changed, try having a think about how those changes will affect someone other than yourself, if you're old enough to have developed that ability (doubtful).
Or, on the other hand you may just be a troll, in which case this thread has gone quite well for you. 'Gratz.
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Blue Dragon
ION Corp. Holdings
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Posted - 2009.12.16 19:54:00 -
[60]
Anyone who says that they're 'completely defenseless' from stealth bombers need to understand a few things:
1> The meaning of 'acceptable risk'. The fact your in low sec or null-sec space already says you made the decision to risk what you have against any future gains. In layman's terms, "You get what you asked for."
2> There are tactics against a stealth bomber, for one having interceptors do high speed, long range orbits around your fleet. You can also try blocking the gates to keep them from coming in at all. Throw cans and other garbage out there to force them to decloak, espicially along the points of entry in a field, where you arrive after warping in from a planet or station. Try /something/. Nothing is perfect, as catching a stealth bomber on the approach is more luck then anything else, just like a number of other things in the game. BUT, you can do things to increase your chances.
3> Try running some actual combat drills. A friendly bomber pilot goes for your ships, you try to stop him. First one with a lock wins. If your REALLY masochistic then run it as a live fire drill. Do that a few times and maybe you'll get a clue or two.
4> But above all, Use your head, and be real about it. Those AFK bombers.. what have they actually done? What's your evidence? If all he did was scare you a little by being there, then maybe you need to double check your responses before assuming the problem is with the game. It's posible they're not even there for you at all, but are after someone/something else. Rats perhasps? And it's possible they're not even in a bomber, but a helios or other covert ship. Work off of what you DO know, not what you don't. Otherwise your jumping at shadows.
5> Keep it polite but talk to them. Maybe they'll respond with what their intentions are. Telling them to **** off is a sure fire way of drawing attention to yourself. *I* personally have no problems putting a thermal bomb up some jerk's butt, or a lock breaker if I just wanted to make a point. But if I'm treated with respect, I will almost always leave them alone.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.12.16 20:46:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Cynoslaver any number of corpses take alt accounts, completely afk, and just put 1 cloaker in each system of a corp they dont like.
Wait, so they're not only griefers, but they're also undead? Wow.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.16 22:33:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 16/12/2009 22:34:31
Originally by: Merdaneth I've heard wormhole space is even worse.
There are just as much afk cloakers there (if not more) as in 0.0, but in wormhole space you are completely defenseless against them, since in 0.0 you can at least identify the threat (amount of afk cloakers, character ages, standings) and move to a system without an afk cloaker.
Wormhole space is horrible, AFK cloakers are completely invisible and invulnerable there! You might have twenty 60million skill points AFK cloakers only a few AU away when you are ratting in wormhole space and you can't do anything about them!
I live in w-space, and cloaked ships don't bother me at all.
Never once has a cloaked ship shot at me, or made me head for the safety of the POS bubble, or got me to jump into a combat ship looking for them.
I have had ships uncloak next to me though.
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alt9854
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Posted - 2009.12.16 23:08:00 -
[63]
And that guys, is how you troll. You take a topic that would provoke typical responses and fuel it from quoting replies. Would have been better if you used a topic other than AFK cloaking, it's all a little easy (ninja salvaging being another example!).
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.12.17 02:57:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 15/12/2009 20:56:12
lol
Threads like this belong in the "Missions & Complexes" forum
Quote:
if you want to grief fine, but at least be at your keyboard to do it
It's not griefing - area denial is a strategy as old as warfare itself.
Yes, sitting afk in a system for hours is considered area denial, but putting cans around a gate to decloak them is an exploit Please re-size your signature to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes.Applebabe
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.12.17 06:44:00 -
[65]
Some of you people need to go see a doctor to get your Jan Brady complexes looked at.
Not all cloakers are doing it to grief you.
Some of them are lone wolves and explorers biding their time to get a safe exit or a new wormhole.
You want cloaky griefing? How about someone who can constantly have combat probes shoved up your ass all day.
A cloaked ship can't do a damned thing to hurt anybody.
I know, we are all not Jan Brady and therefore it's our fault that we are even alive, playing the game in your system in your constellation in your EvE universe and therefore we have to pay for your personal problems by being your next killmail.
What, did you see one too many Soviet and National socialist stock films of people running themselves into pits to be shot in the head and started thinking "So that's what being superior to everyone else is all about! They are supposed to present themselves to me do die so I can bask in my greatness".
When I cloak in a system, it's to keep the ****** pimple popping KM addicts off my case.
But hey if you want combat probes in a ring around you all day, go ahead and ask for it.
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc
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Posted - 2009.12.17 07:37:00 -
[66]
I'm always wondering at which age people were dropped and fell on their head real hard when they come up with the "a cloaked ship can't hurt anyone".
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service |
Loxatl Deathsquad
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Posted - 2009.12.17 07:57:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Loxatl Deathsquad on 17/12/2009 07:58:14 Why does CCP allow "sleep cloaking" in enemy space? Because they think its a valid tactic. These afk cloakers really dont bother me and to the few really new players to 0.0 who are in our corp and are bothered by them, they simply get told to go into a different system. Everyone knows where these guys are, they really shouldnt be a problem to anyone in your corp or alliance. There are many counters to afk cloakers including going afk yourself and doing what you really want in other systems - they think you are there doing something locally but arent really, going in a gang or having a bait ship and a gang 1-2 systems away, or even using a pvp ship whilst missioning.
There are many valid tactics to keep you playing youre game, unless you are clueless, in which case if an afk cloaker bothers you, maybe you should go back to hisec?
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Ivana Twinkle
Amarr Polytechnique Gallenteenne
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Posted - 2009.12.17 11:32:00 -
[68]
because its a sandbox(tm)
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.17 12:02:00 -
[69]
SO not only should we fly a paper cannon (seriously, ever flown an SB?) You also want us to be limited in how long we can hide out waiting for a target to show LOL, why don't you just remove cloaks form us completely, an give us rockets instead of torpedo's ?
You understand no Cov Ops can stand toe to toe with anyone yer?.. we have to run n gun or we die, case in point last night I got hit on a camp an I took 600 dmg, it popped me instantly.
Try something out before you rag on it, cos seriously cloak is the only thing we have to keep us alive.
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Johnny Santos
Beginning of the End
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Posted - 2009.12.17 12:45:00 -
[70]
SOLUTION: w-space mechanics... NO LOCAL.
OUTCOME: OP doesnt have to worry anymore
Cynoslaver - The tears you have shed in this thread equate to an amount of 1 cup of whine on a mountain of tears and whining that has been EVE since '03.
Guess what happened to all the other posts and all those people who shed tears?
CCP cared for about a 10th of a second.
Adapt, overcome or submit and leave the area.
No one can hear you scream, but they can laugh at your tears.
Welcome to EVE.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.12.17 12:55:00 -
[71]
Quote:
Note that in EVE, if something gives you an advantage, you have to give up something to get it.
What do you give up to do L4 missions?
As for the OP, I know anything said is futile because of his attitude. But anyway, in 0.0 I never had any problem. If a cloaker showed up, who cared. The second he came to do anything he'd be popped by 3-4 of us in no time.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Krakkatoa
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Posted - 2009.12.17 16:08:00 -
[72]
I read all the posts in this thread and ive decided to set out to find out what the OP looks like and here is what ive found.
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Johnny Santos
Beginning of the End
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Posted - 2009.12.18 00:05:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Note that in EVE, if something gives you an advantage, you have to give up something to get it.
What do you give up to do L4 missions?
A life? Time? Falling asleep and losing ship? Friends? Wife? Endless list.... :P
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.12.18 00:13:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Cynoslaver you miss the point totally
any number of corpses take alt accounts, completely afk, and just put 1 cloaker in each system of a corp they dont like. Everyone know sthis happens, they don't even have to play the game, they just set it up on a comp they aren't using, on an alt they aren't using (hell i can see 2 of them right now)
they've been in these systems for probably 4 days straight, but depending on your setup, or the size of your group, it DOES effect what you can do.
The very concept is completely ridiculous that you can "not play the game' and yet have this kind of an impact. People have proposed cloak timers (stupid idea) but jesus christ, what MMO out there doesn't have 'activity' timers. wow puts you afk, lotro logs you out, as do most games, if you sit on your ass doing nothing.
half the time you can't login cuz the eve cluster is full...well gee...how about we force logout the peopel who are afk for 10 hours straight?
I mean seriosuly if someone could actually give me a logical reason this should be allowed with no penalties please speak up.
the point is you can't, the only thing you'll say is "umm golly if a cloaker can be found, then what's the point of cloaking';
completley stuipd logic, it's like saying wow....if im a thief and i use stealth but someone can spot me...what'st he point of even trying to stealth around?
if im a criminal and am trying to cheat you, but you can catch me...then why should crime even exist? it's like 10 year old logic for griefers to keep griefing with no effort
if you want to grief fine, but at least be at your keyboard to do it
That would be fixed by removing local ... they wouldn't be able to harras you anymore just by sitting cloaked.
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Junko Togawa
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.18 04:55:00 -
[75]
Confirming that when there's no more nonconsentual PvP and you can run missions 100% safe anywhere in the game, AFK cloakers will just be weirdos and no longer a problem.
NERF PVP!
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tiviirulez
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Posted - 2009.12.18 16:45:00 -
[76]
OP is right, afk-cloak for hours should go.
Originally by: Madame Bloviator ...think about it, if pilot is afk, he cant do anything.
lol and how would you tell apart an afk and an active cloaker? spam convo? supreme smack? ******
Originally by: Zill You understand no Cov Ops can stand toe to toe with anyone yer?..
Arazu? Rapier? Pilgrim? Ever tried ratting with 3 BS spawns on your ass plus a recon holding you for his mates to come or lighting a covert-cyno? Easy hm. Ratting with a cloaked ufo in system is either stupid if done solo or unproductive with a whole gang on stand-by.
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.12.18 17:09:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Originally by: Merdaneth I've heard wormhole space is even worse.
There are just as much afk cloakers there (if not more) as in 0.0, but in wormhole space you are completely defenseless against them, since in 0.0 you can at least identify the threat (amount of afk cloakers, character ages, standings) and move to a system without an afk cloaker.
I live in w-space, and cloaked ships don't bother me at all.
Never once has a cloaked ship shot at me, or made me head for the safety of the POS bubble, or got me to jump into a combat ship looking for them.
Well, that probably is because my post was ironic.
Of course people in wormhole space aren't bothered by AFK cloakers at all. Why? Because due to lack of local there is no additional psychological threat.
That is what people mean when they suggest not to use local as an intel tool. AFK cloakers can only bother you in your own imagination. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
KaiserSoze434
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Posted - 2009.12.18 17:09:00 -
[78]
Wow, I cant believe this was even seriously raised as an issue. For one thing, instilling a sense that you're always there, that you could be watching and operating, is a vital tactic in war. Why do you think the rl military does PRESENCE patrols. Do you really not see that one of the points of things like predator drone strikes in rl is so that the enemy knows you're there but has no idea when you're watching? How do you know they're afk? If, as you say, a Corp is funding some throwaway alt, how do you know they haven't set up shifts to watch the system? Only being there when you're taking notes would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? Some other points are. 1. Afk mining (oh noes! Carebears get things done afk too!) 2. Afk industry (same) 3. Afk research (same) 4. You do have a module that defeats a ship you can't see and suspect has no pilot. It's in the low slot between your legs. Activate your balls and undock. 5. Scan for scan probes. There I gave you a tactic. 6. You have nothing to fear from a lone prober until local spikes. See item 5. 7. Work exploration sites. They move around so the cloaked can't sit on one, and can't find you without probing. See item 4. 8. Make friends. 9. Stay logged in when you're done playing. Go to a safespot and cloak. How will they know when you're on if they're watching. 10. Shoot any npc Corp alt you see on general principle. 11. Change systems (gasp)
There you go. 11 things you can do and proof that afk activity is part of every aspect of eve. HTFU.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.18 18:08:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 18/12/2009 18:08:25
Originally by: KaiserSoze434 Wow, I cant believe this was even seriously raised as an issue. For one thing, instilling a sense that you're always there, that you could be watching and operating, is a vital tactic in war. Why do you think the rl military does PRESENCE patrols. Do you really not see that one of the points of things like predator drone strikes in rl is so that the enemy knows you're there but has no idea when you're watching? How do you know they're afk? If, as you say, a Corp is funding some throwaway alt, how do you know they haven't set up shifts to watch the system? Only being there when you're taking notes would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? Some other points are. 1. Afk mining (oh noes! Carebears get things done afk too!) 2. Afk industry (same) 3. Afk research (same) 4. You do have a module that defeats a ship you can't see and suspect has no pilot. It's in the low slot between your legs. Activate your balls and undock. 5. Scan for scan probes. There I gave you a tactic. 6. You have nothing to fear from a lone prober until local spikes. See item 5. 7. Work exploration sites. They move around so the cloaked can't sit on one, and can't find you without probing. See item 4. 8. Make friends. 9. Stay logged in when you're done playing. Go to a safespot and cloak. How will they know when you're on if they're watching. 10. Shoot any npc Corp alt you see on general principle. 11. Change systems (gasp)
There you go. 11 things you can do and proof that afk activity is part of every aspect of eve. HTFU.
Did you even read the topic? How many RL armies do you know where they let people who are sleeping run patrols? You have nothing to fear from a lone cloaked ship? How many SBs do you think a miner can tank? Exploration sites are only very few and dont support many people. Friends dont help against someone you cant kill (exactly the point, let us kill them). And afk cloaking yourself is besides a large waste of RL electricity also stupid metagaming. Changing system does not really work with the goal of dominion being more people in less systems.
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Sahriah BloodStone
Caldari No.Mercy
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Posted - 2009.12.18 18:38:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Sahriah BloodStone on 18/12/2009 18:40:59
Originally by: Cynoslaver Notice it's always idiots like this that reply to a post, say absolutely nothing meaningful or useful in any way, hint at such amazing knowledge they have (but ironically aren't willing to share) and pretend they know a damned thing.
"local" isn't a counter to afk cloaking, afk cloaking is just stupid, it's not strategic. Heaven forbid an eve player actually have to "play" ti grief someone (gasp)...
welcome to stupidity..oh wait you were already there.
You talk about logic yet fail to use it.
First of all your language in this thread is that of a 15 yr old. Grow up, dont cry when people dont agree with you, attempting to swear does not make you cooler (contrary to popular belief)
Secondly knowledge in EvE is power. Why would anyone freely give you power, ESPECIALLY when you're acting like a baby
Third. AFK cloaking IS strategic. Fourth. AFK cloaking is NOT greifing (but please allow me to copy the words from a excellent sig someone made)
'In a game where killing, stealing, scamming, lying, impossible odds, constant risk and doing whatever you want to whoever you want for any reason you might have or no reason at all are all standard day to day gameplay. Can you really call what happened to you greifing?'
Ok sorry, now back to the issue
You have the power to do many things even if you cannot find the guy. Be very vigilant for a while, kill him a few times when hes been afk and he may stop. How about ASK him (nicely ffs) to not do that. Not everyone is evil (lol). Some people actually respond to that kinda thing. Move systems? Go to high sec? But you dont want to? Thats fine its your choice. Noone is forcing you anywhere.
FIFTH (and most important). How do you know the person is AFK? How do you know how long that person has been AFK for? What consititues AFKing? IF i go to the kitchen to get lunch and am AFK (BTW this means Away from keyboard which i am) is that unfair? If i lay down on my bed and accidently fall asleep for 1hr, is that unfair? How about 2hrs? 3hrs? Is sitting infront of the computer doing homework but watching the screen AFKing? How about on a desk in the same room away from the computer. Do you have a camera in said greifers room to KNOW completly and uterly he is AFK? If you dont then CCP does not either and it is unprofessional of them to use assumptions to limit gameplay, which is exactly why they havnt changed the logging off or on traps.
You need to first define what you believe to be unfair about the situation. By saying that they are greifing you it puts the said person in control of your feelings. You do not give reasonable arguement for CCP to do ANYTHING about the 'problem', you are just venting frustration
Sixth. Please take into account that AFK cloaking has been ingame for how long now? How many people do you think have asked the same as what you ask? How many threads and petitions do you think CCP had dealt with about this over the years? If they were going to change it dont you think LOGICALLY they kinda may have done it by now?
EDit: I forgot to write something
---------------------- Sahriah Bloodstone No.Mercy
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Sahriah BloodStone
Caldari No.Mercy
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Posted - 2009.12.18 18:54:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Did you even read the topic? How many RL armies do you know where they let people who are sleeping run patrols? You have nothing to fear from a lone cloaked ship? How many SBs do you think a miner can tank? Exploration sites are only very few and dont support many people. Friends dont help against someone you cant kill (exactly the point, let us kill them). And afk cloaking yourself is besides a large waste of RL electricity also stupid metagaming. Changing system does not really work with the goal of dominion being more people in less systems.
Lolz don't take everything so literally, the general tactic of instilling a fear of being watched is the same thing.
Also. When does a AFK cloaker any bother anyone? They dont, except for making people about nervous (or paranoid in this case). They are only a threat when they uncloak, and if your in 0.0 ANYWAY, for the duration of the time you are online you should have a plan or protection to get away from any enemy force cloaked or not. They fact you have a little less notice is a testiment to your lazyness. You arnt prepared to watch space and form plans, or there wouldnt even be a problem.
If i was mining in a belt in a hulk in 0.0, and there was an AFK cloaker, and i knew he sometimes came hunting when he wasnt AFK i would get protection. My own cloakers infact. Soon as that rat uncloaked to kill me he would be swarmed himself. How much of this do you think he would want to endure? My god stop whining, if your mining anywhere where AFK cloakers is a problem, then unless you watch local constantly for any inties jumping into system that can tackle you if there lucky within 1min, you will never be safe.
---------------------- Sahriah Bloodstone No.Mercy
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Forte Hauler
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Posted - 2009.12.18 19:10:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Sahriah BloodStone
FIFTH (and most important). How do you know the person is AFK? How do you know how long that person has been AFK for? What consititues AFKing? IF i go to the kitchen to get lunch and am AFK (BTW this means Away from keyboard which i am) is that unfair? If i lay down on my bed and accidently fall asleep for 1hr, is that unfair? How about 2hrs? 3hrs? Is sitting infront of the computer doing homework but watching the screen AFKing? How about on a desk in the same room away from the computer. Do you have a camera in said greifers room to KNOW completly and uterly he is AFK? If you dont then CCP does not either and it is unprofessional of them to use assumptions to limit gameplay, which is exactly why they havnt changed the logging off or on traps.
To me, this is the main reason why you will never see anything done by CCP on this issue. I too have sat cloaked for the entire day in a system gathering intel. Also, as a trader, I will sit in space cloaked browsing contracts, looking at prices for hours. The only way this would work would be trying to detect if any client activity has occurred in a certain timeframe and then force the client closed and disconnected with a nasty message. That would suck if I was eyeballing a station waiting for a pilot or package to arrive or leave, and then all of the sudden no connection? Yuck!
L8r, Forte
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Von Stickypants
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Posted - 2009.12.18 19:17:00 -
[83]
+1 for removing local
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.18 19:31:00 -
[84]
Quote: FIFTH (and most important). How do you know the person is AFK? How do you know how long that person has been AFK for? What consititues AFKing? IF i go to the kitchen to get lunch and am AFK (BTW this means Away from keyboard which i am) is that unfair? If i lay down on my bed and accidently fall asleep for 1hr, is that unfair? How about 2hrs? 3hrs? Is sitting infront of the computer doing homework but watching the screen AFKing? How about on a desk in the same room away from the computer. Do you have a camera in said greifers room to KNOW completly and uterly he is AFK? If you dont then CCP does not either and it is unprofessional of them to use assumptions to limit gameplay, which is exactly why they havnt changed the logging off or on traps.
If i go afk when hanging in space i am dead at the end. No one wants CCP to forbid anyone from going afk. But we should be able to scan someone down who is hanging afk in space for a long time, after all it is supposed to be dark and dangerous. Yet it the most dangerous places you can go afk without any fear at all by fittnig a cloak.
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KaiserSoze434
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Posted - 2009.12.18 19:52:00 -
[85]
My apologies OP, because in responding to what you said about my previos post I'm probably going to make you look like a jackass. Not intentional but the poor thinking is what it is.
1. You better believe we let our enemies think we're in the area and watching even when we aren't. Even when we're asleep, playing with ourselves, or trying to figure out why our best friend is answering our girlfriend's phone at 4am. 2. A stealth bomber actively hunting you isn't exactly "sleep cloaking" are they. If they do something then they were just waiting. You don't seem to be arguing for a time limit on how long a miner can sit in one place with a module active. 3. Friends don't count because you can't kill the guy? What is the little pic and name in local what offends you? How many people do you need watching your back before you feel safe from a pilot you're sure isn't there? 4. How many bombs can a miner tank? He shouldn't have to tank any! You fit for fast warping, stay aligned, and when you see the little blip slowly moving toward you with a long fuse sticking out of it you jar sort of not be there when it goes off. I fly SBs and it really is pretty simple. Besides, you're arguing against sleep cloaking. When I try to ram a bomb down your throat I'm not asleep and I'm not cloaked. 5. Exploration sites aren't plentiful enough? First off, they're all over the damn place if you know what you're doing and put some effort into it. Second, are you actually arguing for a nerf because other player's actions could make you have to compete for resources? 6. A waste of RL electricity.... Tell me what part of Internet spaceships is considered to be a necessary use of this vital resource? This is the stupidest argument ever and a sign that someone is getting emotional and reaching. SLEEP CLOAKERS KILL OUR EARTH MOTHER! Leaving your cell charger plugged in is a waste of electricity. Posting on the Internet spaceships forum is a waste of electricity. Sleep cloakers aren't aren't ushering in an era of death and madness with their environmentally destructive tactics, guy.
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.18 20:54:00 -
[86]
Originally by: tiviirulez OP is right, afk-cloak for hours should go.
Originally by: Madame Bloviator ...think about it, if pilot is afk, he cant do anything.
lol and how would you tell apart an afk and an active cloaker? spam convo? supreme smack? ******
Originally by: Zill You understand no Cov Ops can stand toe to toe with anyone yer?..
Arazu? Rapier? Pilgrim? Ever tried ratting with 3 BS spawns on your ass plus a recon holding you for his mates to come or lighting a covert-cyno? Easy hm. Ratting with a cloaked ufo in system is either stupid if done solo or unproductive with a whole gang on stand-by.
Recon's are not SB/Helios etc, they can take a few more hits. I was talking bout SB personally, as it is you are right utterly stupid to solo rat in an SB.....The others, well they have a job to do an just because they have cyno ability an cov ops cloaks does not make them "OP"
Flying covops is all bout getting in unseen an either "harassing" or marking targets for a fleet/gang. What do you think black ops do in reality, they get in behind the lines quiet till they are meant to do something thne come out swinging (so to speak).
Answer me this question seriously, I am sitting in system talkin crap at you to wind you up, what does it do to you ? I see no mental scares or adverse behavioral problems because of it ?:) just ignore the guy! If he's a SB he's gonna wait for his time to bomb a solo or a small group an leg it.... That is hardly OP. If he is sitting for hours in cloak its quite likily hes 2-300k's off the gate spying for others, again a valid tactic.
You guys cant say that drop cans are fine an 00 is fine etc etc when it's in your favor, then turn around an say oh but Cov Ops are so powerful an its silly we need them nerfed....
Doesn't make sense, see? On a perfect day my SB can do 12k damage off bomb\torp salvo but I get time for 1 salvo of torps an 1 bomb, any more an I am dead instantly. If I am in recon I am there for a reason an it's prolly a drop or a spy mission, again doing exactly what the ship was made for. I see no issue with it at all.
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tiviirulez
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Posted - 2009.12.18 21:14:00 -
[87]
Originally by: KaiserSoze434 lalala
Nimm das Blei und den Koks aus der So¯e, Duud. Hirnfick.
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Oriss Amarr
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Posted - 2009.12.18 21:43:00 -
[88]
Welcome to nosec. Why don't you ladies actually start a fleet and see if there is actually jack out there to cry about istead of having 50 people crammed in a station because there's one silly red in local?
How about this: Instead of nerf cloaks, nerf local. It makes cloakers more useful, AND you little girls won't have to worry about seeing red amirite?
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ChickenOfDoom
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Posted - 2009.12.19 05:05:00 -
[89]
I'm gonna have to put my 2 cents in in favor of cloaking for the sole reason that, as a solo player in lowsec and 0.0, I really really really like how, as an alternative to dying I can walk away from my computer and waste peoples time. If they had spent that time making isk they would be able to afford ships, so its basically the equivalent of blowing **** up, while being afk.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.19 09:28:00 -
[90]
Originally by: ChickenOfDoom I'm gonna have to put my 2 cents in in favor of cloaking for the sole reason that, as a solo player in lowsec and 0.0, I really really really like how, as an alternative to dying I can walk away from my computer and waste peoples time. If they had spent that time making isk they would be able to afford ships, so its basically the equivalent of blowing **** up, while being afk.
Which is exactly the reason it shouldnt be possible, and it is only used for grieving.
Quote: How about this: Instead of nerf cloaks, nerf local. It makes cloakers more useful, AND you little girls won't have to worry about seeing red amirite?
1. No because it is supposed to be 0.0 (your own words), where it is dangerous and all stuff (your own words again), yet you want to be able to hang in 0.0, dont do anything, hell not even be behind your computer, and still have CCP make sure no one can hurt you. Maybe high sec station camping is a better idea for you.
2. But if you want to go ahead and remove local (but still allow us to probe afk cloakers), next double/triple 0.0 income to keep it useful compared to high sec missions.
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Dragonmede
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Posted - 2009.12.19 11:01:00 -
[91]
The way I see the AFK Cloaking issue, the OP sees a target he is wanting to KM, but just can't. Kinda like my dog.....I set out a doggie treat on the counter top, and yes he knows it's there, he smells it, he wants it, he can't reach it, so he will whine and cry till somebody gives it to him.......
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.19 20:54:00 -
[92]
I still fail to see the issue, if hes afk he isnt killing anyone, an your all het up scared he's gonna come an get you ? lol why are you in 0.0 ? seriously, not trying to be funny..... why are you in 00 if this bugs you so much. This old chestnut never goes away, in every MMO where thee is a stealth issue, everyone cry's "waaa he can do something I cant do, nurf him or give it to me!!".... yawn
Fact is You choose to play EvE Online, CCP dont hide the fact 00 is a free-fire zone, they encourage lieing cheating stealing griefing ganking an every other term you can come up with. You agreed to this when you ticked the TOS.
AFK cloaking is a non issue whatsoever, Recon/SB hulk hunters or just solo roamers or even spys its all part of the game.
For all you know a recon could be waiting for the word to light off his cyno. Can be any number of reasons hes afk
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc
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Posted - 2009.12.19 21:04:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Zill I still fail to see the issue, if hes afk he isnt killing anyone, an your all het up scared he's gonna come an get you ? lol why are you in 0.0 ? seriously, not trying to be funny..... why are you in 00 if this bugs you so much. This old chestnut never goes away, in every MMO where thee is a stealth issue, everyone cry's "waaa he can do something I cant do, nurf him or give it to me!!".... yawn
Fact is You choose to play EvE Online, CCP dont hide the fact 00 is a free-fire zone, they encourage lieing cheating stealing griefing ganking an every other term you can come up with. You agreed to this when you ticked the TOS.
AFK cloaking is a non issue whatsoever, Recon/SB hulk hunters or just solo roamers or even spys its all part of the game.
For all you know a recon could be waiting for the word to light off his cyno. Can be any number of reasons hes afk
I'm kinda curious how the above meshes with your "waah, there's a can on the gate, not FAAAAIIIRRR!!!!"
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.12.19 21:08:00 -
[94]
The only change I can agree with is that there be a logoff triggered after a given amount if inactivity. Not because of AFK Cloakers or the OP's emoraging display of his inner Jan Brady, but because of bandwidth.
The real greifing is from people who don't log off and use up bandwidth, keeping you from logging on.
I have met players who think that docking is comparable to logging off. Yes that's true. There are also people who think the CDROM/DVD drive is as cup holder.
It would be a good bandwidth and resource-saving measure to detect total inactivity and log them off. The assumption that all cloakers are AFK and griefing is outright wrong and given the reason to cloak, that player might be doing any number of things while cloaked. But honestly going to bed or to a movie while cloaked or even docked and logged in is somewhat inconsiderate. Bandwidth costs money, and the more bandwidth that must be paid for by inconsiderate or stupid people the less profit and that means less development for the game. There could already be a lot we are lacking because some knucklfutz thinks it's cool to stay logged in while he snaps the carrot or goes on a date with his cousin.
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Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.12.19 21:17:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 19/12/2009 21:16:58 I am sitting outside an enemy POS for the last 2 hours waiting for the reds in system to finish the deanchoring so that I can ninja it with my trusty blockade runner. At the critical moment, I get forcefully logged off. Why should this be possible?
All of the threads about cloaks are just whines from people that can't handle this part of gameplay. HTFU or GTFO.
TL;DR wah, wah, I am afraid of my own shadow, mommy! make it go away!!!
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.19 21:31:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Zill on 19/12/2009 21:33:19 lol Marko, fair point :) but my "waaa" is valid to a point... I don't want containers removed or nurfed. I am just *****ing for sake of *****ing about it heh
edit, Tagami I am so disillusioned man, I went back to Prov last week for first time in months, only to find the vaunted UK gate camps in 4b etc were gone.....sigh come back!!! :)
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.19 23:16:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 19/12/2009 21:16:58 I am sitting outside an enemy POS for the last 2 hours waiting for the reds in system to finish the deanchoring so that I can ninja it with my trusty blockade runner. At the critical moment, I get forcefully logged off. Why should this be possible?
All of the threads about cloaks are just whines from people that can't handle this part of gameplay. HTFU or GTFO.
TL;DR wah, wah, I am afraid of my own shadow, mommy! make it go away!!!
TL;DR I am too lazy to double click once every 2 hours to make sure i am not logged off. Although personally i think being able to probe cloakers with long cycle time and as result where they were in beginning of the probe cycle would be a better solution.
All of the threads about AFK (FFS we dont care about you hanging around cloaked, we care about you hanging around cloaked and sleeping and us not being able to kill you) cloaking attracts some people who cant handle the part of gameplay where they are at risk in 0.0 when away from their computer and in a pvp ship.
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Konrad Zsou
Trade Vexillum
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Posted - 2009.12.20 04:33:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Furb Killer
2. But if you want to go ahead and remove local (but still allow us to probe afk cloakers), next double/triple 0.0 income to keep it useful compared to high sec missions.
This shows exactly why the OP is mad at cloakers. It disrupts his isk making. If you want free ISK go back to Empire, 0.0 is about PvP and holding space not your isk/hour ratio.
+1 getting rid of local
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.20 10:34:00 -
[99]
Fail, so you say we should use mission alts to make our isk and 0.0 is eves pvp arena?
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Aralieus
Amarr Traumark Logistics H Y E N A
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Posted - 2009.12.20 20:37:00 -
[100]
Protip: Put a afk cloaker in the same system as well, that way we will think twice before uncloaking and trying to kill one of your peeps when he doesnt know whats out there. But in all seriousness why are you in 0.0/Low sec if this bothers you so much?
Fortune favors the bold!!! |
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Russian Mistress
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Posted - 2009.12.21 09:28:00 -
[101]
I find these cloakers sitting in your systems 24'7 pretty annoying.
Maybe a cycle time for a cloak module would be a nice idea not to let ppl scout U 24'7 being afk.
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Webcam4Isk
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Posted - 2009.12.21 17:14:00 -
[102]
Andreus LeHane, you said the following...
Oh well, that's them spending $15 a month to put cloakers in your system. They're still paying to "play" the game. Also, I'd like to point out that if you know they're AFK cloakers and thus won't do anything, what's the problem?
People like that dont actually pay for that account, they use ISK from there 0.0 pos's that makes them billions a week, 600mil or whatever every 2 months is nothing for the sake of 2 months game time..
i dont know if anyone else has replied to you.. i got half way down page 1 and got bored of this thread nevermind the other 3 pages of crap
but yeah i agree.. afk cloakers should be fixed, it is annoying and its not only in 0.0 you get them in low sec too, which also s u c k s, so yeah nothing will ever happen about this.. same with local chat window.. why its even there i have no idea but whatever.. thats another story
good luck on your rant with getting afk cloakers fixed but itll never happen
Web
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Vaneshi SnowCrash
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Posted - 2009.12.21 17:16:00 -
[103]
I iz in your system... not doing much akshully.
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venariel
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.12.21 18:42:00 -
[104]
actions to take if there is a cloaker in your system: 1. Keep your scanner up and continue what you were doing that way if he "wakes up" upon "sensing" that your in "his" system you can be ready and warp away. 2. Choose a different effing system. 3. If he wakes up and comes after you, kill his ass then resume what you were doing. 4. If you determine he is in fact asleep then continue what you were doing and thank your lucky stars that scary man in deadspace wont notice you.
In conclusion afk cloakers arent that big a effin deal dude stop *****in.
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NobodyHolme
Gallente Colonial Fleet Services Independent Faction
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Posted - 2009.12.21 20:29:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash I iz in your system... not doing much akshully.
Quoted because I agree.
Might even be waiting for your local to die down so I can light a covert cyno up when your defences are weak.
This problem is about as important as mushy peas, tbqh. Because I can. |
Webcam4Isk
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Posted - 2009.12.22 04:53:00 -
[106]
Originally by: venariel actions to take if there is a cloaker in your system: 1. Keep your scanner up and continue what you were doing that way if he "wakes up" upon "sensing" that your in "his" system you can be ready and warp away. 2. Choose a different effing system. 3. If he wakes up and comes after you, kill his ass then resume what you were doing. 4. If you determine he is in fact asleep then continue what you were doing and thank your lucky stars that scary man in deadspace wont notice you.
In conclusion afk cloakers arent that big a effin deal dude stop *****in.
ok how about, we now have a scanner with a timer i cant hit my scanner all the time without getting a stupid error saying our data bases are to crap to support your button bashing power
secondly.. no i wont change system.. this is my home !!
thirdly he wont come after you, how would you like me to stand in your bathroom and watch you taking a crap ? i like to be alone sometimes..
and last but not least.. how will he not notice you.. hes in local FOR YOU !!
as yes this is a problem because its made alot of people cry about this there is plenty of posts out there about crap like this, if it was a high sec carebear problem then this would have been fixed already because the amount of carebears that would cry
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Nikita Stark
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Posted - 2009.12.22 06:11:00 -
[107]
I didn't bother reading passed the first page sorry.
Cynoslaver, you are not listening to anything anyone has to say.
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2009.12.22 06:23:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer The only change I can agree with is that there be a logoff triggered after a given amount if inactivity. Not because of AFK Cloakers or the OP's emoraging display of his inner Jan Brady, but because of bandwidth.
As long as it applies to everyone equally ("AFK" cloaker and POS hugger and AFK Docker) then I'm ok with it.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Codo Yagari
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.12.22 09:07:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Codo Yagari on 22/12/2009 09:08:34
I think the original poster is absolutely correct.
The cloaking mechanics definitely need a change. Perhaps cloaking should drain the capacitor? Or even better, require a specific type of fuel?
The way a hostile pilot is able to camp a system for hours, days and even weeks, cluttering up local with their presence, is ridiculous.
Also, CCP needs to look at the scanning mechanics in general, making it alot easier to track down other ships in a system. Way too many fights are centered around gates or stations.
---
Empress Jamyl I |
JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.12.22 11:07:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer The only change I can agree with is that there be a logoff triggered after a given amount if inactivity. Not because of AFK Cloakers or the OP's emoraging display of his inner Jan Brady, but because of bandwidth.
As long as it applies to everyone equally ("AFK" cloaker and POS hugger and AFK Docker) then I'm ok with it.
-Liang
Agree the moment you jump to the system even in cov ops, everyone knows your here they just dock or go back to the pos. "afk" cloaking I consider it the legal tactic against allmighty local.
Remove/nerf local we can talk about nerfing cloak.
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Geonin
Amarr No.Mercy
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Posted - 2009.12.22 18:57:00 -
[111]
I think cloaking is perfect as is right now in eve.
It actually allows people to do proper recon work.
It prevents people from feeling completely safe. It's working properly it has cynoslaver so worried that he/she has to post on the forums to complain. If it wasn't working properly then you wouldn't be very concerned at all - would you?
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Cosmic Rainbow
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Posted - 2009.12.22 21:56:00 -
[112]
Op provide a use case or stop whining.
If you cant provide a use case where the scenario occurs that it negatively impacts you with no possible recourse, then your point, and entire op is moot.
But I do like the tears. Gave me a lol.
Use case or STFU (and Im going to bet any use case you can post, I can tear down very quickly with manyt possible counters based on current in game mechanics.)
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Haramir Haleths
Caldari Nutella Bande
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Posted - 2009.12.23 12:56:00 -
[113]
This what happend when CCP forces Carebears to come to 00. Damned Dominion Patch ...
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Fireblade Stu
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Posted - 2009.12.23 13:47:00 -
[114]
Excuse the n00bishness of this question, but how do you tell the difference between a cloaked player (that may or may not be AFK) and someone hiding in a safe spot in the system? Also if he / she aint at the pc and is cloaked. whats the big prob?
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Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb
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Posted - 2009.12.23 15:02:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Wacktopia on 23/12/2009 15:07:15
Originally by: Cynoslaver Even if you could POSSIBLY find their safe spot, which is rpobably the dumbest comment i've EVER seen posted anywhere on this form...ever...and I mean ever.
Heh, this comment made me laugh out loud (lol to all you 1337z0rs posting).
Anyway, I thought I'd offer up some friendly advice to you, Cynoslaver.
1) When you post on these forums, why not spend a little time on your post to ensure that you have used punctuation and grammar to the best of your ability. Typing in lower case only with no punctuation or random capitals half way through the line makes your post hard to read. People will not bother reading it or not value your opinion.
2) Don't swear at people (or use that annoying abbreviation you keep using). Swearing has a place, like if you lost your +5s getting podded, but not when you're having a discussion where there are two or more differing opinions. Swearing just annoys people and makes you look immature, damaging your original argument.
3) Don't assume that anyone that disagrees with your opinions is an 'idiot'. This makes it look like you don't know how to make your point clear and are clutching at straws because you feel your position has been compromised. If someone doesn't agree don't take it personally.
4) If your parents pay for you to play a game like EVE, where many of the players are in their late 20s or 30s, don't go around speaking and acting like you are in some teen chat forum. You are not. Shouting and abusing people may work whilst you are amongst your young, skittish peers but it is a complete bore to the rest of the human population.
Have a nice day!
Edit: I forgot to answer your question. How rude of me. Well, CCP allow "afk cloaking" in space because EVE just isn't a very nice place to be and this helps make it even nastier. ---------------------- They're angry there was damage done to their ship. |
Belkadan
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Posted - 2009.12.23 18:05:00 -
[116]
I've read throug a fair amount of this thread and I'm finding a whole bunch of useful advice and sound arguments as to why ask cloaking is perfectly acceptable. The ony counter-argument the OP seems able to gather is "How can afk cloaking be allowed?!?"
He seems incapable of actually reading other people's posts unless they're a carbon copy of his own. He's like many other whiners that constantly complain about game mechanics because they're not able to think of a way to counter it. They seem so angry about their inability to do anything that they become so defensive they don't think clearly. This is a vicious cycle.
OP, take a nap, calm yourself, pretend you actually respect other posters, and read; really really read what they've written. Maybe then you'll have an epiphany and stop whining like a goddamn toddler.
I'd respond to his posts directly, but I'd rather not waste my time with such an inconsiderate person.
To those who've taken the time to counter his pitiful complaints, I applaud you, you're more patient than I.
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Jodi Goulsti
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2009.12.23 18:08:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Fireblade Stu Excuse the n00bishness of this question, but how do you tell the difference between a cloaked player (that may or may not be AFK) and someone hiding in a safe spot in the system?
If he shows up on your scanner, he's not cloaked.
But honestly, it's not incredibly difficult to get safespots that are unscannable from celestial objects.
Once CCP "fixes" cloakers, they need to address the "issue" of deep safe spots. After all, why should *I* be forced to hide in my station when there's someone who might shoot me in local?
Quote: Also if he / she aint at the pc and is cloaked. whats the big prob?
Um, haven't you been following along? There's ABSOLUTELY NO COUNTER to someone cloaked in local. One cannot simply spring a trap without allocating the resources of the entire alliance to deal with the cloaker. One cannot simply fit some PVP modules that can deal with a gimped cloaker. One cannot simply hop into an adjacent system. One cannot stay aligned and warp off in the time that it takes the cloaker to get a lock.
NO COUNTER, I TELL YOU!!!11!!!UNO
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Elora Danzik
Caldari Idiots In Spaceships Psychotic Tendencies.
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Posted - 2009.12.23 18:40:00 -
[118]
first off its 23/7..unless there's a patch then it could be less.
Second. They have to log back in after down time.
Third. Unless you are playing all 23 hrs for the last four day then you don't know if they have been on the entire time.
Fourth. The cloaker won. By shutting you down.
Fifth. Ideally, a cloaker would not sit in an off grid safespot. If they are gathering intel, which is usually the point, then they "should" either be checkingg moons, sitting off grid off system station, or watching a gate. The station a gate for the obvious reason of watching traffic.
Sixth this is the thrid thread I've seen on this issue and everyone says the same thing. HTFU. Either learn to smoke them out, or just go about your business with standard 0.0 safety in mind.
If local spikes or a cyno lights, bug out.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.12.23 20:25:00 -
[119]
As has been mentioned throughout the thread, I think the real problem is the local channel and its instant member list. First that needs to be fixed so that it's a chat channel and not an intel tool. Of course, some type of scanning overhaul probably needs to replace it. Then, if need be, cloaking mechanics can be looked at (though I don't think they'll need to be).
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Hoodat Bee
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Posted - 2009.12.24 03:42:00 -
[120]
Posting to confirm that Predator drones can be put into a holding pattern while the controller is doing something else.
US Military -- IN UR SKIES GRIEFIN UR DUEDZ AFK!!
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Fireblade Stu
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Posted - 2009.12.24 11:14:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Jodi Goulsti
Originally by: Fireblade Stu Excuse the n00bishness of this question, but how do you tell the difference between a cloaked player (that may or may not be AFK) and someone hiding in a safe spot in the system?
If he shows up on your scanner, he's not cloaked.
But honestly, it's not incredibly difficult to get safespots that are unscannable from celestial objects.
Once CCP "fixes" cloakers, they need to address the "issue" of deep safe spots. After all, why should *I* be forced to hide in my station when there's someone who might shoot me in local?
Quote: Also if he / she aint at the pc and is cloaked. whats the big prob?
Um, haven't you been following along? There's ABSOLUTELY NO COUNTER to someone cloaked in local. One cannot simply spring a trap without allocating the resources of the entire alliance to deal with the cloaker. One cannot simply fit some PVP modules that can deal with a gimped cloaker. One cannot simply hop into an adjacent system. One cannot stay aligned and warp off in the time that it takes the cloaker to get a lock.
NO COUNTER, I TELL YOU!!!11!!!UNO
Ok but isnt risk part of EVE? Fly around long enough and something will get you regardless. They cant shoot you when cloaked and in the same token you cant shoot them. Whats the difference between a random cloaker getting you and having something big, nasty with a ton of guns warping in right on top of you?
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.24 11:41:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 24/12/2009 11:47:13 Edited by: Zab Zonk on 24/12/2009 11:42:59 AFK cloakers are there for a reason. more often then not it's not a buzzard or bomber but a recon.
anyone that done some pvp and lived in a nbsi knows that any hostile in local is to be considered a threat. POINT. no exceptions. any other behavior leads to losses.
i can give you a number of scenarios whenre the afk cloaker can be dangeros even in systems with a relative high populatins. ( ok think about a 3 systems route between 2 pupulated system with an inbetween system with an afk cloaker in it) you cannot go with a hauler there, beacuse you can never know when he gonna decloak an kill it.)
it's ridicoulous in systems where you have alot of peoples 1 man to effectivly deny small number operations. i mean i want to go from point a to be to transport 15k of loot i shouldnt need an escort in the systems my alliance is in.
i'd much rather have 15-20-200 bs camping the station or whatever. i can fight them. a cloaker will decide when to fight. and that's fine but most of them will pick easy targets. no afk cloaker honor there or anything, no real pvpers ther either , thay just pick soft targets. PVP advocates ( and real pvp-ers ) in general will agree that it's just greifing there.
someone sugested making a gang making a gang for what ? sit in sytem ... and ? wait till he get's up ? see the gang and leave computer again ?
imho there should be probes with an extreme scan time like 5 minutes per scan.... if it's afk you will find it. if it's not there's no way he will get cought. simple there fixed it.
someone said in real world you have submarines... they can be found actually , and no crew cant just sit an watch **** there's allways someone guarding the radar and the sonar. otherwise any afk crew of a submarine will just find'emselfs in heaven very fast. not so with afkers.
it's just broken.
later edit: it's usually a hard task for an alliance to securise a piece of space but that's wat alliances do , we go there and make a 00 a safe place safe as we defend it. there is no posibile defence against cloakers. it's not right to be able to force alliances cram in systems just so players wont be ganked when they can actually defend that space if they have someone to fight. but you cat fight someone whi's not there.
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente The Rise of The Dragon Knights Void Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.24 14:01:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Zab Zonk imho there should be probes with an extreme scan time like 5 minutes per scan.... if it's afk you will find it. if it's not there's no way he will get cought. simple there fixed it.
I like this. Simple solution that (I guess) should not require CCP to rewrite half their codebose to implement. Louis approves +5 Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie ROTDK is recruiting
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Jath Tola
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Posted - 2009.12.24 14:39:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Zab Zonk AFK cloakers are there for a reason. more often then not it's not a buzzard or bomber but a recon.
...
i mean i want to go from point a to be to transport 15k of loot i shouldnt need an escort in the systems my alliance is in.
i'd much rather have 15-20-200 bs camping the station or whatever. i can fight them. a cloaker will decide when to fight. and that's fine but most of them will pick easy targets. no afk cloaker honor there or anything, no real pvpers ther either , thay just pick soft targets. PVP advocates ( and real pvp-ers ) in general will agree that it's just greifing there.
Please, people, if you're going to type long replies make them legible. This was painful to read through. So here's revenge!
Firstly: You are right; AFK cloakers (or cloakers in general) are there for a reason. Often that reason is recon, so you are again correct.
However, beyond that all I find is whining. You don't want to have to get any escort to fly through 0.0 space just because your alliance is there? What, then, is the point of 0.0 space? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 0.0 space meant to be, well, dangerous?
You say you'd much rather have some outrageous number of battleships camping you in a station because you "can fight them" but having one cloaked player *somewhere* in a system somehow makes them simultaneously invulnerable, omnipresent, and "just broken".
Let's be serious: one cloaked anything is going to have a hell of a time competing with firepower that can take on a gazillion camping battleships. Even firepower that can take on one battleship is enough to destroy most anything that tries to use cloaking as a combat tactic. Here's why: Either the cloaker spends forever recalibrating after decloak (enough time to either kill them or get away, one would hope) or they can use superior cloaking devices but are practically made of paper.
Your complaint basically centers around "a cloaker will decide when to fight", but you claim that "that's fine but most of them will pick easy targets"...
...And?
What would you have them do? Ignore transports in favor of that nice shiny battleship to duke it out with? Most cloakers will pick easy targets over hard targets. The rest are morons. Or dead.
It seems that if someone prefers stealth or surprise tactics as opposed to "who has the biggest guns and the best armor", this makes them not a "real PvP'er" in your opinion.
With all the incredible jackassery that occurs in EVE, you find someone quietly sitting, cloaked, possibly AFK in a system you frequent to be "griefing"? Griefing whom? You? How do you know? Have they shot at you? Well, then they apparently weren't AFK. Or cloaked. Are you just creeped out by the fact that anyone could be sitting in your system, undetectable except by, well, looking in local chat?
Cloaking is sneaky. Get over it. It's no more "dishonorable" or "griefing" or "broken" than anything else in EVE. Some pilots (like you, it appears) train up skills to fly huge, devastating DPS-dealers while others (apparently nobody you associate with) train up covops skills and scout instead. Good corporations and alliances often rely on both.
Is it really that hard to avoid flying "gank me" ships in 0.0 without an escort? Ask a corpmate if you're that concerned. Really. Or just make your run. If a cloaker is really AFK then you'll be fine. If not, then you'll be fine unless they scan you down, decide to kill you, show up and their first shot or two is enough to do you in.
EVE is about risk. Cloakers don't risk much while cloaked, but they also can't *do* anything apart from observe. And, evidently, terrify the living daylights out of the paranoid.
Mission accomplished, it would seem.
TL;DR: - Get a damn escort if you're that worried. - Cloakers pick "easy targets" because taking a covops ship against a battleship is stupid. - Not all PvP is "get the biggest ship with the biggest guns and shoot".
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Mel Lifera
Gallente Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.12.24 14:50:00 -
[125]
Ah, the joys of psychological warfare!
There's someone cloaked in the system.
Are they cloaked at the gate, counting everyone who comes and goes? Are they camping the station? Are they cloaked at your favorite belt with an Arazu, or simply psyching you out with a cloaked Iteron III? Is it nothing to worry about, completely safe? Or is death waiting at the door? What to do, what to do?
How about "play the game", slick? Cloaking is hard to beat, true, but it practically cripples the cloaked vessel in the meantime. You're all upset over nothing.
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Dirk Culliford
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.12.24 16:41:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Furb Killer Fail, so you say we should use mission alts to make our isk and 0.0 is eves pvp arena?
\/ You finally got it! How long has it taken you to realise that this is what EVE is all about?
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.12.24 19:48:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Dirk Culliford
Originally by: Furb Killer Fail, so you say we should use mission alts to make our isk and 0.0 is eves pvp arena?
\/ You finally got it! How long has it taken you to realise that this is what EVE is all about?
No, it's not.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.25 00:45:00 -
[128]
ok. first of all for all of you 0.0 local whiners let me say that. 0.0 isnt made to be safe. it's made to be made safe by alliances. either by sheer firepower
or by superiour tactics. look @ kings & rooks one triage carrier + 25 bs taking down 50+ bs
and multiple carriers.
now wether you like it or not isk making is part of the fighting process. some have empire
missioning alts, some just straight buy isk via selling plexes some straight buy isk.
SOME try to make isk within their well deserved space their allaice secured. by secured i
mean repelling any sizable forece that traied to invade that region/ constelation.
problem is ... that any cloaking afker can effectivly deny resource gathering operations in
any given system without any risk. Think like this. part of securing a piece of space is ment to be able to us cost effective ships in orther to hgather resources. this implies using marauders or other expensive ships in order to maximise proffit.
it's why we fought for that space why we repelled any intruder, why we form a fleet and obliterate anyone that traies to get there. OR we can be obliterated by a superriour force. OH WAIT OH NOes 1 SINGLE MAN afk cloaker can single handed disrupt that. with no effort whatsoever ( yeah i CAN SEE THE ECHONIMOCAL REAL WORLD BENEFITS - +1 ACCOUNT PAYED ) so if he stays afk cloaked we aqve 2 options
- stop operations within that syatem - run unviable economical ops - ie for any isk making process we get the ship that could run it and pvp escort.
issue is, it dosent have to do any effort in doing so.... not even play the game... just to pay the account and sit there afk.
everything within that game is ment to have an effort and knowledge associated with it. also most of the tactics usetd within have a counter method ( ok take tackling super-carriers and titans - you and have multiple small dictor bubbles but they can be smartbombed, and if it's a hic we talk about it can be neuted to hell and back)
afk cloaking is nothing like that as you have 3 options
- hope you will not get cought ( just pure chance actually ) - will get u killed - not run oerations in that system - cloaker won - effectivly disrupt op within that system with no risk or effort involved - run operations witha much lower yeld ( cloker won again since it have effectivly disrupt your resource gathering ops )
no matter how your vision of FAIR is that within the game this is beyond it as it is actually a russion roulette if you are not the afk cloaker.
last but not least. coming back to number 1. 0.0 is made so you can make it safe but it depends on you. no local advocates should simply understand the fact that some people movd there for good. no empire isk making alts and no buying isk. so you take a piece of space and make it safe. if anyones come there that die. OR if they use superiour tactics or firepower you are dead. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. i can remember a fleet of AF's with enough logi support ( made yes by triumvirate ) obliterating a fair number of bs's bc's and hac's of a fail alliance. still TRI played, they actually were thre, not downlaoding p o r n while denying outr allaince's gathering resources ops.
tl/dr -no effort for disrupting resource gathering for an afk cloaker -get even if unheard of posibility to scan afk cloaker ( e.g. 5 min scanning time for cloak probes )
well one corpmate of mine learned this the hard way ( k told him before NEVER RAT WHILE HOSTILE IS IN SYSTEM ) but it was just a buzzard reported long time before, never agressed anyone. neutral yes. what harm could he do ? after all he's been there for a week or so !!! allways on never harmed anyone. well he made a covert cyno and falcon and black ops jumped in. he lost a golem 1.5 bil + all in all. was he stupid ? no just inexperienced. and again should he followed my advice that ment no efficeinet rattin in that system while the afk cloaker decided to stay there.
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Jath Tola
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Posted - 2009.12.25 02:57:00 -
[129]
Welcome to EVE. You may get killed here. Repeatedly. It's pretty common, you should get used to it soon.
If they do anything, meaning if they affect your game in any way besides just scaring you by appearing in local, they are NOT AFK. An AFK cloaker cannot light a covert cyno. An AFK cloaker cannot decloak and fire. An AFK cloaker can do nothing but make you worried that they might not be AFK after all.
This thread is about AFK cloaking. Player-present cloaking used as a scare tactic, recon tactic, or "area denial" tactic are all 100% valid. Is it annoying? Inconvenient? Of course - that's the point. If they put a cloaked ship in your system that lights a cyno every time a valuable mark flies by, they're denying you your resource gathering, as you say. But they are not AFK.
Do I advocate cloaking in a system and going to watch TV? No. It's lame. Not broken, not griefing, just kinda being a jerk. But to call all silently cloaked ships in a system "AFK cloaking" is utter nonsense.
For those that do, in fact, cloak and then wander off all day - they'll be findable after downtime. Get them then. Or try running operations with decent escort for a while, then cut back on the escort slowly (but have ships in-system) and see if they ever make a move. Yes? Not AFK. No? Maybe they are an AFK cloaker after all. Which means you now know they won't bother you. Or maybe they're *really* clever and they're just waiting for you to stop bringing escort. Who knows? You won't until you take a risk. So take one.
TL;DR: - "AFK cloaking" and "cloaking" are not the same thing. - AFK cloakers cannot light a cyno or call in reinforcements, so cannot be the ones killing your valuable shipments or calling in others to do so. - AFK cloakers are kinda being jerks. In the way that suicide gankers or canflippers are being jerks. - Bring escort if they're not AFK. Get them after downtime if they are. Problem solved. - EVE is largely about risk. Get over it. No space is "safe", only "safer". Particularly 0.0 space.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.25 08:25:00 -
[130]
would you let me know exactly how would you know if a guy that's allmost all the time in system ( except downtime ) cloaked yes for weeks sometimes is afk or not ?
there's no way to know when he's gonna come out of afk and DO somthing.
by the way as you said someone not afk would not lit a cyno but someone not afk would not be afected by scan probes with 5 min timer would they ? so what's the problem ?
'fraid loosing posibility to be a jerk without lifting a finger ?
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W4nt3d
Caldari IDEON ANDRON Manifest Destiny.
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Posted - 2009.12.25 08:49:00 -
[131]
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.25 22:12:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Zill on 25/12/2009 22:17:04 What I find sad is the fact these guys will get exactly what they ask for. They destroyed highsec by complaining GoonFeet's Jihad was killing too many hulks an freighters....So CCP bashed any fun we had by taking away the 30 sec timer, an making Concord invunerable. Hunting freighters for isk was a great deal of fun an it made people think before going for a cruise..
Now you wait an see, we will have a "timer" on Cov Ops or something equally stupid. It's been in MMO's since EQ times, they know they just have to complain long enough till company gets bored an just gives them what they want.
Some of you lads seem to be attributing a serious about of power to a single SB. My Nem has bout 12000 dmg+torp salvo using Heat bomb/torps. On other hand it takes less than 500 damage to pop me instantly.
If you cant do 500 in a single salvo you belong in 1.0
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Hamano Walker
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Posted - 2009.12.26 00:44:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Hamano Walker on 26/12/2009 00:46:35 OK, speaking from the side of someone who cloaks and does exploration in lowsec and 0.0, if you're worried about some guy who's just a name in local and nothing else, you're not worrying enough. I know aobut not worrying enough, it cost me my first recon ship. Note that, Recon, the tough cloaker. Since that time I have never lost a cloak ship. Why? Because the second I hit lowsec I'm watching things on the assumption that even if local is empty, someone is always just on the other side of the jump gate planning to come in and kill me.
Can you find a cloaked ship that's in a safe? No, but you can find his probes. If he lights up a cyno you can find him. If he decloaks around your assets or gets within 2500m of anything you can find him. . .in fact, you know what, I'll (meaning an alt, actually) come play hunter for you if the price is right.
Cloak Hunter service package includes: Threat assessment of a given (afk?) cloaker Good faith attempts to probe down cloakers. Covops guards to watch for cloakers probing down your assets. (I may have to hire others for this since I can't be on 23/7, but I'd accept a recurring consultancy salary to teach your people to do it) Specific counter-tactics on a case by case basis to encourage afk cloakers to move on.
If cloakers stalking your system are a big problem, surely you're willing to pay to be rid of them. After all, they represent potential economic losses to you. If you're not willing to pay, they must not be much of a problem.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.26 18:48:00 -
[134]
do you even hear what you say ? pay poeple to get me rid of the cloaker ? how ? do what ? he's afk. and cloaked.
pos warfere is already boring as it is, and noone likes it who would want to camp a cloaker for a week ? 24/7 no matter how much isk you'd pay.
people that blow up jf's in empire at least are there at computer pressing a buttion. and they do loose their ships.
cloaker on the other side just sits there.
and as i see it is an exploit. local is there for a reason an no matter how you take it it's a designed game mechanic. afk cloaking means just circumventing that.
imho ppl that complain about existence of local either buy isk either have highsec mission-farming alts. they shurley dont earn their existence in 0.0
some of us like to live in 0.0 and make it our home. would you like to know you maibe have an invisible killer in your dorm ? i very much like that if it's a killer in my dorm i can hit it with a bat. or at least he cant fall asleep while being invisible. sitting there for weeks at a time until at some point he decides to wake up and stab you in the back.
btw morons covert cynos cant be seen in system. do you even know what are you talking about ? what god damn probes are needed for them to find you in a belt ?
you adress the problem as i'm not doing anything to stop them but as long as i am online i cannot gather resources needed for actualy fighting someone i have to camp that cloaker or risk loosing my ship. is it ok for him to force doing that with 0 risk ? with 0 effort ?
give me 1 method i can track down a cloaker that sits afk for 6 days in row and i'll bow down to you. but you know there is none. so you babble about making fleets or hiering people or camping gates when in fact you do know for shure that none of this will work. he will just sit there until at a random moment ( for the others ofc ) he will decide to act and be shure it will be in he's advantage.
you talk about risk, but i take the concept of risk as a calculated risk. you cannot asses the risk of an afk cloaker. that's not risk it's randomness. and it only works against you.
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Shepard Book
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.12.26 20:03:00 -
[135]
I hope they never change cloaks on cov ops, recons and black ops because you want to be safer. You talking like you speak for real PvPers is laughable. Space is not supposed to be safe. Picking your fights is a viable tactic. Small gang and Solo pvp is bad enough and now you want someone to catter to you because you can not learn how to protect yourself. Go back to highsec war deck games if you want that safe feeling.
I hope they remove local from 0.0 one day. I am sure you will be back crying about that too.
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.26 22:21:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Zill on 26/12/2009 22:24:35
Originally by: Zab Zonk Some of us like to live in 0.0 and make it our home. would you like to know you maibe have an invisible killer in your dorm ? i very much like that if it's a killer in my dorm i can hit it with a bat. or at least he cant fall asleep while being invisible. sitting there for weeks at a time until at some point he decides to wake up and stab you in the back.
btw morons covert cynos cant be seen in system. do you even know what are you talking about ? what god damn probes are needed for them to find you in a belt ?
you adress the problem as i'm not doing anything to stop them but as long as i am online i cannot gather resources needed for actualy fighting someone i have to camp that cloaker or risk loosing my ship. is it ok for him to force doing that with 0 risk ? with 0 effort ?
give me 1 method i can track down a cloaker that sits afk for 6 days in row and i'll bow down to you. but you know there is none. so you babble about making fleets or hiering people or camping gates when in fact you do know for shure that none of this will work. he will just sit there until at a random moment ( for the others ofc ) he will decide to act and be shure it will be in he's advantage.
you talk about risk, but i take the concept of risk as a calculated risk. you cannot asses the risk of an afk cloaker. that's not risk it's randomness. and it only works against you.
Just what exactly scares you so much about a single cloaker ? if it's a recon I doubt he has much interest in trying to gank a ratter, hes possibly quite busy with corp bizz. If it's a hound or a nem or something, well its a paper thin cannon, ANY an I do mean any ratter can kill it. If your so "expert" at 0.0 then you know you religiously watch your surroundings for any ship. If he decloaks in belt to bomb you move. If he shoots torps at you, shoot back, ull kill him long before he kills you (you need to hit him once)
If your minng, then you deserve to die anyway for solo mining in 00.
Hell, use the drop can "exploit" lol everyone els does. spread drop cans all over palce any cloaker that coems near has to thread his way through em. Since you drop a can every 5000m it makes our lives very dificult.
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K'racker
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.12.27 00:51:00 -
[137]
a comment from ccp about this, either 'working as intended', or 'we're looking at it', would relieve the people who are making multiple threads across the forums on the same subject, and constantly bumping them to the first page.
the military tactic 'harrassment and interdiction' hurts the morale of the defenders, making them feel constantly threatened, and interfering with logistics and attacking targets of opportunity. it's been used for thousands of years irl, and adapts well to this game.
the propaganda machine trying to eliminate this will assign it a bad name, so instead of 'hostiles', we have 'sleep cloaker' or 'afk cloaker' depending on which forum's been spammed most recently. and keep pounding the subject, until ccp gets sick of looking at it, which is is sadly a proven method of getting game changes.
you consider yourself a 'real pvper' when you hide behind the anonymity of a 200+ ship fleet? the 'real pvpers' in 0.0 are the solo and small gang roamers that go deep into your space to hunt. if there's a hostile in your space, and you're docked, you are not in this group. if there's a hostile in your space, and you're posting here complaining about it, you are not in this group.
the fight for your space is never over, and it will never be completely safe. accept that. cloaking is difficult to counter, but not game-breaking. nor should it stop you from making isk. you can rat in an insurable ship and always be ganged; the only real time you can kill a cloaker is when he attacks you. make the most of the opportunity; it's worth it if you can remove him from your space.
the problem here is those who would like to solo mine. a hulk can pull in what, 50 mill an hour mining hi-ends? and you'd like to do it in complete safety. hate to say it, but the phrase 'risk vs. reward', kind of applies here. don't you agree?
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Hamano Walker
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Posted - 2009.12.27 00:57:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Zab Zonk do you even hear what you say ? pay poeple to get me rid of the cloaker ? how ? do what ? he's afk. and cloaked.
Oh, I hear you fine. I just think you're blowing the risk entirely out of proportion. I can AFK in a station just as easily with one alt and keep an entire fleet one jump away from you with another. End result is about the same. One name in local, untouchable target who has to run your gate camps iin order to dig in.
As far as "1 method", that's exactly what I'm charging for. I'll perform the operations for 1 ISK. Knowing what operation to perform is the part that costs. You most certainly can assess when an AFK cloaker becomes a risk and you can spot a covert cyno. . .but only if it matters enough to you to actually expend some effort.
I used the following quote in an orientation for newbs thread, saw it in a guy's bio. "If its not in your hangar, its not exclusively yours." That applies to your system, too. Its yours to exactly the extent that you can defend it.
Welcome to EVE, where every player has as much right to use your system as you do. Just like a war dec'd newb, you can either handle the problem yourself, pay someone else to, find a way to avoid it or cry about it.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.12.27 01:05:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Hamano Walker
I used the following quote in an orientation for newbs thread, saw it in a guy's bio. "If its not in your hangar, its not exclusively yours." That applies to your system, too. Its yours to exactly the extent that you can defend it.
Welcome to EVE, where every player has as much right to use your system as you do. Just like a war dec'd newb, you can either handle the problem yourself, pay someone else to, find a way to avoid it or cry about it.
Amen brother
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Hamano Walker
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Posted - 2009.12.27 03:56:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Hamano Walker on 27/12/2009 04:01:12 Tell you what, I'll sweeten the deal. You can let a trusted third party hold the money. If I do nothing, I get nothing. If your guys end up sufficiently knowledgeable to defeat your camp cloaker I get full price. If I get your cloaker to leave personally, I get double.
I warn you again, though, dealing with any hostile takes work and it takes tactics. If you want to deal with the problem you will actually have to do the work and keep doing it. I've spent a lot of time learning to avoid people who want to find me. I know where my own weak points are. They are absolutely, completely unavoidable. It falls on you, as a system "owner" to learn the tactics you need to protect your system from cloaks just like you would from cynos or blobs.
Again, you do not inherently deserve security in 0.0. If you don't have the resources to keep an eye out for a cloaked ship you certainly don't have the resources to dodge a truly dedicated attack coming through your gates.
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sir meatball
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Posted - 2009.12.27 05:53:00 -
[141]
the fact that ccp are still willing to do nothing about it just shows that they really are not serious about making the game a balanced fair playing field . i mean how can they justify allowing people to cloak in a system you are supposed to have ownership of for a whole 24 hr period were you can do nothing to stop them or find them and say there isn't anything wrong just shows that they do not want people to not get annoyed and leave. i know this is just 1 of the thing that **** people off but it is one of the most annoying. |
Hamano Walker
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Posted - 2009.12.27 06:02:00 -
[142]
Originally by: sir meatball the fact that ccp are still willing to do nothing about it just shows that they really are not serious about making the game a balanced fair playing field . i mean how can they justify allowing people to cloak in a system you are supposed to have ownership of for a whole 24 hr period were you can do nothing to stop them or find them and say there isn't anything wrong just shows that they do not want people to not get annoyed and leave. i know this is just 1 of the thing that **** people off but it is one of the most annoying.
I assume. . .nay hope. . .that was intended to be sarcastic. I'm just not entirely sure.
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sir meatball
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Posted - 2009.12.27 06:03:00 -
[143]
The fact ccp is still allowing it just shows that they see no reason to actually make the game a fair playing field . i mean how can they justify people sitting afk or not for 24 hrs day after day in the same system spying and causing the people that own the system to get ganked if they do use the system they are supposed to own is just about the stupidest think iv hear for a longtime. if they dont end up fixing the problem people will just keep leaving its not the only reason people get ****ed at this game but it is one of the main reasons.the fact they haven,t bothered putting in any pve content for cap ships is a big killer of old players as well i mean all that time training and all you can do is support for pvp or kill a pos lol.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.12.27 06:14:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 27/12/2009 06:14:13
Originally by: sir meatball The fact ccp is still allowing it just shows that they see no reason to actually make the game a fair playing field . i mean how can they justify people sitting afk or not for 24 hrs day after day in the same system spying and causing the people that own the system to get ganked if they do use the system they are supposed to own is just about the stupidest think iv hear for a longtime. if they dont end up fixing the problem people will just keep leaving its not the only reason people get ****ed at this game but it is one of the main reasons.the fact they haven,t bothered putting in any pve content for cap ships is a big killer of old players as well i mean all that time training and all you can do is support for pvp or kill a pos lol.
Sov does not equal omnisience or omnipotence. Does a king (the "soveriegn") know where every criminal is hiding in his nation? You own NOTHING outside of the range of your guns. If you can destroy it, you control it. If not, you don't.
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Hamano Walker
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Posted - 2009.12.27 07:06:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Hamano Walker on 27/12/2009 07:07:40 OK, guys, let's be honest here. No matter who "owns" a system, they have to work to keep it. You have to work to stop fleet engagements. You have to work to stop people from mining your asteroids. You have to work to protect your gates. You can't just drop a TCU and assume no one is allowed to bother you.
You also have to work to keep out cloaked ships. There are tactics for dealing with blobs. There are tactics for dealing with suicide interceptors. There are tactics for dealing with cloaks. They just happen to be tactics where your mining and PVP fitted ships do not excel.
Newb miners want to be safe in Highsec. Guess what, people can flip and suicide gank them all the time. This happens every day in systems where the NPC's supposedly provide protection. Mission runners don't want to be ninja looted. It happens. Explorers don't want to be ganked in their lowsec exporation sites. It happens. All of these are how the game is structured. You don't want a persistent cloak to make you look over your shoulder. It happens.
Some of them go to Crime and Punishment to cry about it. Many many more adapt their tactics to avoid having the same problems in the future. You could do the same but it will require thought, work, money and possibly skill training. Cloaks are designed for a different type of play than most PVP. They require different counter-tactics to deal with.
I do wonder how many posters in this thread are being actively extorted, though. You kind of make yourselves a target. Its like a new corp complaining that pirates extorted them for money. All it does is point the other pirates in their direction.
TL:DR Long term cloaking in unsecure space is less of a grief/unfair tactic than can flipping. Use your head before your guns.
Edit: I geniunely hope the end result of all of these threads is 0.0 corps having a respect for covert warfare on both sides. So far I haven't seen much evidence that they are interested in the covert part of PVP.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.27 09:27:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 27/12/2009 09:34:48 Edited by: Zab Zonk on 27/12/2009 09:31:10 you are only adressing part of the problem that is convenient to you. maybe my posts have no redadability. or maybe you just misread them on purpuse. TL;DR --- i'm ok my systems being attacked 0.0 is made secure by my corp / alliance
i'm not ok attacker to be afk if he's attacking he should be there at the computer if he's cloaked 8 hours straight and tries to find a weakness it's ok then we have the thrill danger and all that.
if he's cloaked 6 days straight this means he's only there active and playing maybe 2-3 hours all in all. TL;DR end --- what i DEMAND is that my enemy is there and is actually doing all that crap interdicting warfare that you talk about. but he is not there. until 1 minute he is.
is it hard to understand that i want that enemy to PLAY the game if he wants to disrupt my operations ( in the way that i have to keep an eye on my back ) ? is that so much to ask ?
and none of you afk cloakers responded what would a 5 minute scan time probes do against a cloaker that's there at the computer playing the god damn game ?
with 0.0 as it si now an afk cloaker have no counter actually. ( CANS ? omg be serious ? space is BIG ) ever heard of warping to a ss BEFORE warping to a gate or an object of intrest ?
so you say you want MY game to be dangerous. so be it. i'm ok. what about cloaker's game ? having the ability to find him when he is afk wont change he's risk when he's not afk. just would remove a broken game mechnic.
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Hamano Walker
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Posted - 2009.12.27 09:56:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Zab Zonk
and none of you afk cloakers responded what would a 5 minute scan time probes do against a cloaker that's there at the computer playing the god damn game ?
Well, since a cloak ship has no way of knowing its on the recieving end of a 5 minute scan, it'd get them killed for one.
Quote: with 0.0 as it si now an afk cloaker have no counter actually. ( CANS ? omg be serious ? space is BIG ) ever heard of warping to a ss BEFORE warping to a gate or an object of intrest ?
The counter is called "vigilance".
Quote: if i want toplay withinn that system having to watch my back and allways be cautions will make me bound to make me mestakes, in response as he'll only play a faction of that time he is not. i demand that he sould be there and to need to watch he's back also , so eventually he will be bound to make the same mistakes. if he dosent when well he's a better player. but HE SHOULD watch he's back just as i do if he's there.
I actually understand the specific point of having people active. Everyone should be subject to the same limits. Highsec miners should have to be active to mine. Deployable warp bubbles and secure containers should only work with their owner online. People in stations shouldn't be able to log local chat while idle. These things can disrupt my gameplay with zero risk to their owners. When its applied evenly to everyone, I'm right there with you.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.27 10:18:00 -
[148]
first well afk miners in empire we are on same page they should really be adressed yes.imho banning them one by one would be a good start.
as for the objects in space ... do you now propose also POSES to dispear when owner is not on-line ? but then again they are objects unable of independent thoughts. a warp disrupt bubble wont move on it's own.
as for scan probes with a 5 minutes scan timmer hill'em when they are NOT afk how ? 5 minutes is a loooooong time to use your scanner around the system aye ? enough time to see them on scan and move.
so if i have to be acutios scann al the time if he's there probing me and etc why shouldnt he be ? and remember it's actually more just a check if he's afk, as a simple warp of 1 AU means probes need repositioned before scanning further. ( same mechanic as normal probes first scan with 32 au then go down ) if he moves he cant be probed if he's afk he will die eventually.
i probably will spent 20-25 minutes to probe him but i'm wiling to do that. ( i supose at least 4 scans needed. to get 100% lock) does it seems unfair ? it'seems perfect.
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Hamano Walker
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Posted - 2009.12.27 10:24:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Hamano Walker on 27/12/2009 10:26:53 Edited by: Hamano Walker on 27/12/2009 10:25:01
Originally by: Zab Zonk first well afk miners in empire we are on same page they should really be adressed yes.imho banning them one by one would be a good start.
as for the objects in space ... do you now propose also POSES to dispear when owner is not on-line ? but then again they are objects unable of independent thoughts. a warp disrupt bubble wont move on it's own.
as for scan probes with a 5 minutes scan timmer hill'em when they are NOT afk how ? 5 minutes is a loooooong time to use your scanner around the system aye ? enough time to see them on scan and move.
so if i have to be acutios scann al the time if he's there probing me and etc why shouldnt he be ? and remember it's actually more just a check if he's afk, as a simple warp of 1 AU means probes need repositioned before scanning further. ( same mechanic as normal probes first scan with 32 au then go down ) if he moves he cant be probed if he's afk he will die eventually.
If I didn't specify non-POS deployables, I meant to. POS's defend themselves. My deployable issue is actually warp disrupt bubbles. You can log in, drop a bubble, log out and let your buddies camp it forever. You effect my stealth gameplay with no personal risk.
If I'm legitimately cloaked and at the keyboard for 1 hour and seven minutes, my probes are gone. Now the cloak is actually a danger. I have to decloak to fire probes to see if I'm being scanned or expect to get mauled at 1 hour 12 minutes and forever after. If you can 0 warp to a cloaked ship with a proper PVP combat fit, that cloaked ship is deceased. That's not an afk check, that's a check on whether or not I've decloaked.
If you want a 15 minute AFK timer on everyone, I'm right there with you.
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.27 11:36:00 -
[150]
I love how the miners all complain about cloakers, yet they want to be in 00 where they can make good isk. Newsflash lads you DONT SOLO MINE IN 0.0. SO he's afk for 6 days, big deal it means he hasn't killed a soul. YAY FOR YOU! :).
Psychological warfare is a vital part in any fight. CCP should never nerf this tactic. No matter how hard the miners scream, you lot already killed highsec with the complaints that it too hard an GF were killing hulks lol.
If I had known hanging out in cloak has this bigger head game on you miner's I'd have done it sooner, this sounds like fun.
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RabbitofDoom
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Posted - 2009.12.27 17:20:00 -
[151]
I have no problem with afk cloakers in my system. I have a problem that i have no tools to find them and blow them up while they are siting afking on their lil safe spots for hours.
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Ry Vern
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Posted - 2009.12.27 22:56:00 -
[152]
cloakers can be annoying especially if your fighting against one or a group of them but what they do is consistent with real life guerrilla tactics when faced with a larger force or just using stealth to be able to assassinate anyone, use the element of surprise or scout enemy activity....having said that, i think it would also be fair to have something someone can use to be able to decloak someone other than spamming drag bubbles and cans :) .....theres a gm module in game (forgot what its called) which is basically a decloaking smartbomb with a range of 15km..i think it would be fair to release this for everyone to use..of course this would not solve cloakers who have grid safes and safe spots but at least it offers a chance for someone to do something against cloakers in their system... oh and i propose black ops ships to have range bonuses to these decloaking smartbombs so they would have an "anti-cloaker" to add some justification to their ridiculous high prices :)
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.28 00:20:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 28/12/2009 00:25:33 Edited by: Zab Zonk on 28/12/2009 00:22:09
Originally by: Zill I love how the miners all complain about cloakers, yet they want to be in 00 where they can make good isk. Newsflash lads you DONT SOLO MINE IN 0.0. SO he's afk for 6 days, big deal it means he hasn't killed a soul. YAY FOR YOU! :).
Psychological warfare is a vital part in any fight. CCP should never nerf this tactic. No matter how hard the miners scream, you lot already killed highsec with the complaints that it too hard an GF were killing hulks lol.
If I had known hanging out in cloak has this bigger head game on you miner's I'd have done it sooner, this sounds like fun.
your mouth is too big for the little kills you have done. ( many of witch was shuttles ... yeeey for the man big pvp expert) you can barely fly an ishtar. i recomend you go back do some pvp then come back talking like a man.
Going back to serious busines, well if i drop a bubble and my budies camp it. that means there IS someone somewhere doing somthing actually playing right ? if an afk ckoaker is afk that means he is not doing anything but still affecting my game.
scripted play or afk play it's the same to me. exploit. should be banned or fixed.
real life snper if you want to call it like that sits without moving for days at a time, he withstands pain from not moving cold or hear hunger and thirst, and he dosent have an invincible cloak to shield him from enemy. infrered , thermal vision name it there are counters for the sniper. he has a risk. if he sleeps he might never wake up. he knows that when ge goes in. How's that compared to afk cloaker ?
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Hamano Walker
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Posted - 2009.12.28 00:57:00 -
[154]
Keeping with the covert warfare style of play, I'd be all right with a decloak bomb on one condition. There should also be a decoy drone/probe/something. Basically you anchor it like any other module. When you log out or leave the system, the decoy keeps your icon on screen in local. As anchorable equipment it would be subject to all of the strengths and weaknesses of deployable equipment such as cans and warp bubbles. . .wait, can those be probed?
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Dragonmede
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Posted - 2009.12.28 01:00:00 -
[155]
Here is an "AFK" Cloaker tactic. Camp a Gate or Station where you want to gather intel, Set-up an "out of game" spy program that records a screen image every 15-30 sec, and check data every day after downtime. Purpose: To observe activity in target system, recording the habits and routines of individuals, to establish patterns.
Known Habits and Patterns are used in the Hunt.
1) Do Not take the same route or travel to specific locations on a set schedule. 2) 0.0 is NOT YOUR HOME, at best it is a forward base camp. Nullsec is Hostile Space. 3) Even if I'm AFK, I'm still Watching and Waiting, and when I get the "Free Weapons" make no mistake "Diablo Ex Machina" will bring the Drama.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.28 01:04:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Dragonmede Here is an "AFK" Cloaker tactic. Camp a Gate or Station where you want to gather intel, Set-up an "out of game" spy program that records a screen image every 15-30 sec, and check data every day after downtime. Purpose: To observe activity in target system, recording the habits and routines of individuals, to establish patterns.
Known Habits and Patterns are used in the Hunt.
1) Do Not take the same route or travel to specific locations on a set schedule. 2) 0.0 is NOT YOUR HOME, at best it is a forward base camp. Nullsec is Hostile Space. 3) Even if I'm AFK, I'm still Watching and Waiting, and when I get the "Free Weapons" make no mistake "Diablo Ex Machina" will bring the Drama.
good that you admit that . And that tactic should be checked against eula if it is considered an exploit. A GM's opinion on that would be intresting.
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Hamano Walker
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Posted - 2009.12.28 02:19:00 -
[157]
Found this in a similar discussion from May. In any further discussions on this subject it will be my one reply.
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Jath Tola
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Posted - 2009.12.28 03:42:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Hamano Walker In any further discussions on this subject it will be my one reply.
...permission to blatantly steal this from you and/or whomever you stole this from originally? It basically sums up the entire argument, but let me reiterate quickly:
1: Cloaked does not mean AFK. 2: 0.0 space is not safe. Ever. Period. Get used to it or move back to highsec. 3: If a cloaker does anything to warrant all the paranoia, they were not AFK. 4: AFK cloakers can only affect your head, not your game, unless you let them. 5: Arguing that using local to find out who is in a system (including cloaked ships) is a "recognized game mechanic" but that cloaking in your system for long periods of time (yet another recognized game mechanic) is griefing/an exploit/etc is ill-advised.
If you have a problem with AFK cloaking, give a specific example of when someone AFK cloaking "griefed" you and how they did so, or else quit whining. If, on the other hand, you have a problem with the cloaking mechanic in general, make a new thread because this one is hopeless for you.
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.28 08:17:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Zill on 28/12/2009 08:18:39
Originally by: Zab Zonk Edited by: Zab Zonk on 28/12/2009 00:45:00 Edited by: Zab Zonk on 28/12/2009 00:43:36 Edited by: Zab Zonk on 28/12/2009 00:30:15[/edit
your mouth is too big for the little kills you have done. ( many of witch was shuttles ... yeeey for the man big pvp expert) you can barely fly an ishtar. i recomend you go back do some pvp then come back talking like a man.
lol my Killboard is a non issue, it means nothing.The fact I have 33 pod kills is because Zill was a pirate, Genius.
I can hardly fly an Ishtar ? haha I can fly 99% of all sub marauder ships inc 2 of the marauders an fitted 100% for pvp or pve, dont waste my time numpty.
You jsut want 00 to be safe for you. You ignore the fact that ANY cov ops can be killed faster than hell so they are a non threat to a pvp ship. If it's a Recon, then fight or leave 0.0 its black an white. Stop *****ing about a game mechanic because you don't want to take ay risks. personally I love camping systems in cloak an sitting there all day.
PS as for "being a man" lol you have no idea what a man is when you define your ability by a computer game.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.28 10:56:00 -
[160]
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 28/12/2009 10:58:33 As long as you keep ignoring the main issue i will respond.
ability to cloak - yes ability to do psiho warfare - yes ability do do that while not playing actually - NO
your kills are an issue, killing pods and shuttles does not count as "leet" pvper that your post wants to give the impression. Just as having an opinion against afk cloakers dosent make me a miner. your kills do looks more like you are a gangker and griefer.
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Thunder1971
Caldari Virtual Warriors IMPERIAL LEGI0N
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Posted - 2009.12.28 11:42:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Thunder1971 on 28/12/2009 11:47:44 I've used the tactic and have been defeated by the tactic a lot of times.
People that are in cloaking ships can stay cloaked and the pilot can be asleep. This makes them sort of AFK but stil safe. Nothing wrong with that.
Are they a pain in the butt? Yeah, even I have been cursing them. But being fair about it, I see it as a valid tactic/ situation as this is realistic. You just have to be more carefull with what you do and how you do it.
T
"comrades in arms know the meaning of true friendship". |
Dragonmede
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Posted - 2009.12.28 16:49:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Dragonmede on 28/12/2009 16:57:50
Originally by: RabbitofDoom I have no problem with afk cloakers in my system. I have a problem that i have no tools to find them and blow them up while they are siting afking on their lil safe spots for hours.
I agree with you, because in many ways AFK Cloaking is too easy, it's only when the cloak drops that things get dicey...
I would see a "fix" as being the nerf of Local, combined with T2 combat probes being able (with limitations) to scan down cloakers. There should definitely not be any T1 fix though.
A suggested limitation is that the cloaked ship cannot be detected beyond say 4 AU range, so that only specific locations can be probed. You can check a Gate area, or around a belt or planetary body for cloakers, but not the entire system.
If an AFK Cloaker is beyond 4 AU range they are too far away to see what your doing without Local, therefore they are a minimal threat.
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Dragonmede
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Posted - 2009.12.28 17:07:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Zab Zonk
good that you admit that . And that tactic should be checked against eula if it is considered an exploit. A GM's opinion on that would be intresting.
It is just one of many obvious scenarios, and even if it is ruled as an exploit and against the eula, I'm not sure that there is anything that the GM's can do about it because it happens outside of the game. It's not like there is any modification going on like running macros, and it's impossible to know when it's occurring while inside of the game. Unless you want to go the DMCA route about me video recording game play (Pandora's Box).
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.28 21:54:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Zab Zonk Edited by: Zab Zonk on 28/12/2009 10:58:33 As long as you keep ignoring the main issue i will respond.
ability to cloak - yes ability to do psiho warfare - yes ability do do that while not playing actually - NO
your kills are an issue, killing pods and shuttles does not count as "leet" pvper that your post wants to give the impression. Just as having an opinion against afk cloakers dosent make me a miner. your kills do looks more like you are a gangker and griefer.
I defy you to show me ONE post I have made where I say I am "elite pvper" lol I leave such rubbish for children thanks mate.
As for what I have killed etc, opportunity is "ALL" pvp is. There are no big heroic battles an honorable fights to the death, if you think that you live in a fantasy world. The ONLY fight worth having is the one you win. No rules, no holding back. The end justify's the means 110% of time.If you don't believe that, then you don't want to win..
So saying that, the fact my SB is cloaked afk in system for 3 weeks, rattles you yes ? GOOD!!! it is meant to!! heh, I mean seriously come on. You say you want risk an you say you love 0.0 blah blah.....ok fine. Anything that puts your enemy off his game is a good thing, an should be encouraged at all times.
Be honest an tell us how many times you have been killed by a lone cloaker in system in a pvp ship ? because I bet its either nill or single digits. Unless it was a recon, all combat ships in CovOps have the tanking ability of wet paper.
So again I say, you are "trying" to push for 0.0 to become safer an more regimented, this happens in every MMO an sadly I do agree eventually CCP will fold an give you exactly what you want. Company's always do to the detriment of the rest of us.
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Jath Tola
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Posted - 2009.12.28 22:03:00 -
[165]
Zab, will you please read my last post. It's short. Stop throwing a tantrum at Zill for a second and read my counter-argument, then make a counter-argument of your own. I'm being polite, here, so I'd appreciate if you'd do likewise. Similarly, I'm not so hard-headed that I won't admit it if you make a valid point.
Bringing into question the manliness or PvP prowess of one of another player's toons instead of supporting your argument against rebuttal is only making you look like a toddler. Reread your last few statements and tell me you've made any sort of rational, understandable argument in support of your position. Honestly. One's PvP leet-ness has nothing to do with the validity of their arguments.
If your argument turns out to be simply "because I don't like them", then so be it. At least you have a position (however tenuous) to be arguing from.
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Jodi Goulsti
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2009.12.28 22:09:00 -
[166]
CCP, do away with AFK cloakers so we can AFK mine and mission.
Seriously. Stay aligned, use your d-scanner and pay attention and there is no way someone with a twenty second lock time can kill you. No way.
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.28 22:19:00 -
[167]
Exactly Jodi :). This is my point they are at no risk at all unless they are miners, an as I said "solo mining in 0.0 is free kill". Even if he is afk it is nothing, he isn't doing anything against you nor is he threatening you.
Myself I tend to spy alot, so my cloakers are usually unarmed.I could sit in system for a year an it wouldn't do a thing against you even if I was in my SB.Sure I would kill your pod or your cruisers or even a hulk if I see it, but that is nothing...Throw away ships.
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Gerrick Palivorn
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Posted - 2009.12.29 08:38:00 -
[168]
I have to make my mark on this monster thread.
Being in the RL Military (Ground Pounder). Bases located in hostile territory (0.0 and lowsec in EVE's case) are ALWAYS guarded, no one walks alone and anybody near the entrance is armed and ready for action. This simple way of controlling territory consumes a lot of resources. Because in RL there is no local, because in RL there is no clone to go to. Logistics movements and supply are escorted, presence patrols are an everyday occurance, intel operations are critical. IMHO ppl that are raging about fairness of someone watching them that they cannot see need a serious wake up and realize that keeping pvp ships in system that active ops are occuring in is a normal thing considering CONCORD is no longer there to protect you, your corpmates and alliance should help you in that regard.
Ambushes happen in war and good ppl die in them. This is the cost of holding territory, and for those of you saying that recon ships choosing 'soft' targets is not real pvping, it actually is a VERY common RL tactic in war. In a RL situation would prefer going back to the times that war was standing in formation and shooting at each other? 'Cause thats what your suggesting...
The times have changed and ambushes and traps are the wave of war now, if you have no solution, find someone who does, and then constantly brainstorm new ones. The Art of War is deception, and if you find that these sleeper cloakers are annoying why don't you complain about corporate spying and sabotage, its the same concept...except that there is no local, and the information that they provide can be much more valuable.
I'll give you the best advice I can give in this situation, -Use resources to protect what you consider valuable, -escort your supplies, -always assume your being watched
Whining will only win you sympathy from the those that care about fairness, others will just shoot you.
Life isn't fair, deal with it. |
Winterjack
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Posted - 2009.12.29 09:56:00 -
[169]
"Area Denial" is by definition an "afk" tactic. If you need to be actively present, then it's intel or recon or ambush but certainly not area denial - the whole point in area denial is forcing the enemy to spend more resources defending their assets so that they need to spread thin.
As someone pointed out, mining is the most obvious area denial tactic. Another is guerrilla tactics (sub warfare, sniping). In all three cases, the actual damage is minor - no one destroyed a division by sniping, nor a fleet with submarines: the whole point is forcing the enemy to take countermeasures.
Me's a noob for sure, but I can't see anything wrong with this kind of guerrilla. According to posts before and wiki, cloakships are weak. If you camp 0.0 space without protection of some kind, you're doing it wrong.
The one thing I don't see as "fair" is the automatic screenshot: this uses an out-of-game mechanic to intentionally increase the "attention span" of the player, basically making it like he were 24/7 attentive (if HD space allows). Although the amount of data to process is definitely huge, I see it as an exploit.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.29 11:12:00 -
[170]
most of you have valid points.
escorts are fine, be much more focused on what you are doing now that's fine also. denial tactics ... all is fine, i never said i have somthing about cloakers, and style of play , except posibility to afk
what you have not answered is how you see that it's balanced that 1 single man can trigger all that activity w/o actually playing ?
all i ask is that he wants to do denial of my activities and/or psiho warfare to be forced to actually be there and play. as it is now , take char in system put it in safespot and relog after dt. that's not pvp it's pv'GUY WHO IS AFK' .
as i need to react to he's movements to be ready for him anytime it's only fair that he sould need to react to what i can do to him. ohwait ohnoes i cant do anything to him. even if he's there and afk.
you/we gank afk miners when you discover them... why not allow gank afk cloakers ?
whoever said 20 senonds lock time needs to go do homework again. you get 6 sec delay from cloak and cruiser sized hulls can lock cruisers and bs'es in at most 3 seconds. so with good skills tha's at ost 9 seconds. a smart cloaker that knows what he's doing will go to a safe spot off-grid decloak and warp to you -> no targeting delay. chances are you will not have scanned the sistem with directional at that particular time.
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Nomad Zophiel
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Posted - 2009.12.29 11:15:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Winterjack
The one thing I don't see as "fair" is the automatic screenshot: this uses an out-of-game mechanic to intentionally increase the "attention span" of the player, basically making it like he were 24/7 attentive (if HD space allows). Although the amount of data to process is definitely huge, I see it as an exploit.
Well, this seems to be kind of the thrust of the argument. That just having your name in local with no personal risk amounts to an exploit of the same caliber as, say, macro mining, auto screenshot recon or so forth. I see two basic flaws in this argument.
1. The evidence cited for it is that they must worry constantly about being victims of a sneak attack, which clearly can not happen if the player is AFK.
2. The implication is that if the name of an AFK person were not in local then they would have no need to protect their assets.
The underlying argument seems to be that players in 0.0 (not sov 0.0 in Zab's case) feel that they are entitled to some warning when a previously idle cloaked player becomes a non-idle one. Presumably they would like roughly the same amount of warning that local gives them when hostiles arrive via jump gate. Based on the above I can only conclude that they are engaged in a 0.0 mining operation with a policy of fleeing and/or running to safe spots the moment a non-blue appears in local.
Ironically, while cloaking around Zab's corner of space I encountered a similar experience to exactly what they complain about. Three hostiles in local in a 0.0 with a station. I need to pick up some probes so I warp under cloak to about 100km out. One other ship is in space and he's camped on the station exit in an inexpensive ship not moving. Is he AFK or is he watching for people to enter so he can call for backup and blockade the station? If I dock with a covops, he'll see me at the last second and I may never get out safely. . . or at least have to try and speed log after downtime.
Do I know if he's active or not? No. Could he camp there for a week? Sure. Its the very fact that I don't know what he's really up to that makes it effective and I have no complaints about the tactic.
By the way, anyone interested in the location of Legiunea's POS's can EVEmail me to discuss price.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.29 11:23:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 29/12/2009 11:26:28 Please do tag along we allways like reds in local erm... as long as they fight .
Pos warfare is a little boring but hey pvp is pvp you are welcome :)
as to shoot that guy at station well. you saw him you could shoot. i cant see the cloaker i cant decide if to shoot or not. if i could only find him i could ask myself same question. i might engage him and only find out that he's not afk and have a covert cyno ready.
BUT that kind of options are denied to me.
LE: i find it funny that all the chest bashing people that want to pose as pvpers as oposed to the whining miners post with theri alts. 'Fraid a little ?
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.29 11:58:00 -
[173]
you keep changing your opinion Zab an you keep harping on this "you kids talking tough pvpers blah blah... Yet it was "YOU" you complained that cloakers are in your system an it isn't fair waaa waaa..... Pick a decision an stand by it man your making me seasick with all the bobbing :)
Again I will say this one last time, so what if he is afk, he isn't shooting at you, your in 0.0 its high risk environment, you know this, deal with it. IF the SB comes back an decides to hunt your hulk or whatever, so what? tough luck man surprise attacks are just a fact of life. if you cant kill a single SB then you should be in the station an not come out. I have flown SB for a long time an it is possibly the easiest ship to kill once you lock him, its over in a single salvo.
You cant know he's afk ever, it can be a recon waiting for fleet to form up so he can cyno, it can be an SB hiding out from someone, it can be a ganker waiting for a cheap an easy target (the best kind). There is no "tough guy pvper" or real men, its a computer game an it means absolutely nothing. Lie cheat steal gank grief harras kill pod whatever it takes, win at any cost. If this upsets you then good, it means your rattled an that can only be good when you get attacked, it keeps you on edge as it should do.
This crusade you lot are on to change the fun for one segment of the game is utterly moronic. This same tactic of complaint after complaint after complaint, is what killed Hisec.
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Winterjack
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Posted - 2009.12.29 11:59:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Zab Zonk what you have not answered is how you see that it's balanced that 1 single man can trigger all that activity w/o actually playing ?
Technically, he's using that account to do just that, wether he's online or not - he's still paying it. That paid account could be mining ice, or running contracts or what have you, and is, instead, just keeping you on your toes. IF he were not afk, he'd be much more interested in taking out targets of opportunity, and you'd never know unless you risked it, anyway. Also, there's the chance of a group of fast ships attacking you anyway - as far as I've got it, 0.0 operations are in hostile territory, and thus must be treated as operations under enemy scrutiny or threat. The fact you KNOW they are there is, in fact, enough of a warning. In a real-life situation, you would not know until they fire on you (or otherwise make themselves visible). The fact you see them is an advantage you have, being alerted to their presence: you can decide to protect yourself, to move your op away from them, to lure them out and gank them, to ignore them and strike the eventual loss as enterprise risk, to entice them to see if they're afk or what, and plan accordingly (most of us have regular schedules, don't we? you won't ever see me playing while at office, for instance... although I'm not telling when that is :p)...
Quote: that's not pvp it's pv'GUY WHO IS AFK' .
If he does just that, then take a calculated risk and ignore him/them. Once they're back to the keyboard, you'll probably have repaid the loss they caused you, assuming they DO cause you a loss.
Quote: as i need to react to he's movements to be ready for him anytime it's only fair that he sould need to react to what i can do to him. ohwait ohnoes i cant do anything to him. even if he's there and afk.
If that were true, denial and guerrilla tactics would be totally useless. Guerrilla tactics are by definition unbalanced things in quality. A sniper can pin down an enemy platoon indefinitely, given enough skill and good positions, even if he never kills anyone. A minefield effectively prevents passage even if both the effort in building it and the supervision required are minimal. But the perfect example is submarine warfare. A submarine doesn't even NEED to be there. The fact that it's BEEN there, or that it COULD be there is enough to force a navy to escort each convoy.
Quote: you/we gank afk miners when you discover them... why not allow gank afk cloakers ?
Because the only effective influence of a cloaker is make you prepare for him. They don't make money, they don't deprive you of stuff, they don't compete for resources, they are not traders. They do nothing. Except force you to stay on your toes. _You_ are making money. They are there to slow you down and force you to take countermeasures.
Quote: a smart cloaker that knows what he's doing will go to a safe spot off-grid decloak and warp to you -> no targeting delay. chances are you will not have scanned the sistem with directional at that particular time.
Again, that's not an AFK cloaker. It seems to me that your problem is more with the fact you can't tell if they are AFK or not, rather than they can be afk. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Nomad Zophiel
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Posted - 2009.12.29 12:02:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Zab Zonk Edited by: Zab Zonk on 29/12/2009 11:26:28
as to shoot that guy at station well. you saw him you could shoot. i cant see the cloaker i cant decide if to shoot or not. if i could only find him i could ask myself same question. i might engage him and only find out that he's not afk and have a covert cyno ready.
BUT that kind of options are denied to me.
LE: i find it funny that all the chest bashing people that want to pose as pvpers as oposed to the whining miners post with theri alts. 'Fraid a little ?
I could have shot the guy at the station. Then again, he could have called backup to camp me in whether he survived or not. Same asset denial tactic as a cloak ship, really.
You have this idea that I fancy myself a PVPer? I think my killboard speaks for itself on that matter. Don't look unless you want a laugh. I'm 0 for 3. I just do recon, generally in unarmed ships at that. So I spent a lot of time training my covops skills (couple of months offhand). Keep in mind, Covops and Recon ships both very nearly require skill 4 before they can fit anything besides their cloaks.
Some people train for 2 months to mine the best belts in WH space so they can suck down big ISK hauls. Some so they can insta-lock and web in their Inty so they can pwn u at PVP. That's their choice. I spent two months training so that I could decide if I feel like engaging you. That's mine. Just like the other two, mine isn't perfect but learning how to deal with it is your problem, just like learning how to slip past that inty is mine.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.29 12:42:00 -
[176]
Well none of the arguments convinced me.
But i CAN see that at least judging from this thread ppl that support afk cloaking are more or at least more verbal.
So be it. I'll give it a rest. Have fun in future battles after all that's all it matters.
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Dragonmede
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Posted - 2009.12.29 13:47:00 -
[177]
I personally think that if AFK Cloaking is unfair, then I need to start a crybaby canpaign against a really truely unfair AFK activity, one in which everybody profits.... Let's ban AFK Skill Training next, man you don't even have to be online to earn skills....now THAT is an EXPLOIT!
Let's make everyone that is playing the game, be online AND ACTIVE 23/7. No Outside Life for anyone....
Waaaaaaa......
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Winterjack
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Posted - 2009.12.29 14:29:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Winterjack on 29/12/2009 14:29:09 Zab Zonk: +1 internet skills for a good end of a thread.
Originally by: Dragonmede Let's make everyone that is playing the game, be online AND ACTIVE 23/7. No Outside Life for anyone....
Wait till I'm past my first month before making it impossible for me to play the game, will ya!? ;)
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Mel Lifera
Gallente Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.12.29 16:38:00 -
[179]
Edited by: Mel Lifera on 29/12/2009 16:38:15
Originally by: Zab Zonk what you have not answered is how you see that it's balanced that 1 single man can trigger all that activity w/o actually playing ?
all i ask is that he wants to do denial of my activities and/or psiho warfare to be forced to actually be there and play. as it is now , take char in system put it in safespot and relog after dt. that's not pvp it's pv'GUY WHO IS AFK' .
Except you can not possibly prove he's actually AFK. He might seriously have no life, is unemployed, and aside from five minutes every half hour to run to the kitchen for another bag of Cheetos really spends every moment of his existence in front of his EVE. You don't know.
And once again, just like everybody here is trying to explain to you, an AFK player cannot: shoot, tackle, gank, call a fleet, orbit, pick your nose, or absolutely anything else.
So, two possibilities:
The guy is AFK, in which case who cares where he is or what he's doing? Or the guy is not AFK, in which case he's in a covops with a 20-second lock time so who cares where he is or what he's doing?
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.29 21:29:00 -
[180]
How can a Sn get the lock time of an cov ops wrong? :) An SB has a locking time of 2-3 seconds mate (at least Zill does). But yer, Cov Ops has a very quick lock time mate.
PS Tell Rex I still owe him for last time we tangled, I want his Tempest :D
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Patrice Macmahon
Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.12.29 23:27:00 -
[181]
I think the ULA states that you have to be operating you account when logged in and its against the rules to allow your client to operate without being at your keyboard (its an anti-macro rule in the EULA). So if you are really upset about those pesky afk cloakers, petetion them and cite the EULA after you find the appropriate paragraph...
If they wanna be a **** using the in-game rules, do the same to them.
The Intakis have an obligation to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.12.29 23:45:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Patrice Macmahon I think the ULA states that you have to be operating you account when logged in and its against the rules to allow your client to operate without being at your keyboard (its an anti-macro rule in the EULA). So if you are really upset about those pesky afk cloakers, petetion them and cite the EULA after you find the appropriate paragraph...
If they wanna be a **** using the in-game rules, do the same to them.
So everyone who sits in a station while AFK eating dinner is violating the EULA? I kinda doubt it.
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crashmatusow
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Posted - 2009.12.30 00:19:00 -
[183]
a ship sitting in station does....absolutely nothing. if anything you give WT's time to prepare a station camp.
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Dire Radiant
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Posted - 2009.12.30 00:57:00 -
[184]
Simple Solution: Delayed Local.
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Patrice Macmahon
Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.12.30 02:46:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Patrice Macmahon I think the ULA states that you have to be operating you account when logged in and its against the rules to allow your client to operate without being at your keyboard (its an anti-macro rule in the EULA). So if you are really upset about those pesky afk cloakers, petetion them and cite the EULA after you find the appropriate paragraph...
If they wanna be a **** using the in-game rules, do the same to them.
Nope I was wrong. There is nothing in the Eula about not being at your keyboard while the game is active. Some ofther MMO's have that rule, Eve doesn't. Their focus is on macro'ing and user interface mods.
Cool, so I guess I can station camp all I want.
There is one bit that may of use:
1.You may not take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on the System. - This may imply that afk'ers might pose a large load on the server database collectively when grouped together AFK. This is something for CSM to discuss though...
+)
The Intakis have an obligation to defend the Federation, but not to assult others on its behalf. |
Dragonmede
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Posted - 2009.12.30 06:13:00 -
[186]
I still haven't figured out how you can know that I'm away from my keyboard. I seriously don't think it is possible to do so.
Tonight I was out hunting can-tippers in Hi Sec (The Forge). I set up a jetcan of bait, and sat cloaked for upwards of 5 hours at a location. Just like a hunter in a tree stand waiting for a buck to come by. My reconnaissance over the past two weeks suggested that a particularly "known" can tipper would make their rounds during that time. Sure enough two volleys of Juggernauts later I had my kill.
A hunter will sit patiently for many hour waiting for that 1 shot. Over a period of 18 hours online I was AFK a total of 80 min. I never left the system, and was on Local the entire time, yet I camped 5 belts and got a "clean" HiSec kill.
I defy anyone to tell me when those 80 min AFK occurred. You Can't Know. So HTFU and STFU about AFK Cloaking.
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MasterCeremony
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Posted - 2009.12.30 08:25:00 -
[187]
tl;dr whole thread, but... I can sorta see where this guy is coming from. Being able to have so much influence over a player with such little effort seems a bit broken. HOWEVER, there are ways to counter things like afk cloakers and that is simply to move out. Get a buddy to help you scout a few systems and be on your way to somewhere new. Eve's a relatively big game there's lots of other places to go other than staying in one system.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2009.12.30 13:11:00 -
[188]
well someone finally got it right -> master of ceremony.
As far as the guy with 20 seconds delay for a covop in targeting ... well noob maybe ? That explains ignoring cloaker in local ... well good for you, pro-tip keep doing that. A covops has exactly 6 seconds delay ( 5 with t2 storyline cloak ) and another second for locking a bs. shoudnt be much more for bc/cruisers. Yes it's paper thin ... but the time needed to lock him is more than enough to make a covert cyno. After that it's kind of game over. Oh are you noob enough to be needing an explain what that means ? i'd do it but you know i'm not here to educate anyone. At least not for free.
Point is if you want to be taken serious get your facts straight. mkay ?
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.12.30 21:24:00 -
[189]
lol I dont think I can even be bothered playing any more, you change your tune so many times I cant remember what the original argument was anymore......
oh that's right, you don't like 0.0 being risky....
As I said at start, you have no way of knowing who is afk. 90% of cloakers are not linked to a fleet so Cyno is a non issue. Not many people are gonna hunt ratters in a Recon so SB's are the norm, an that means you can kill them extremely fast. If they are flying Nem it means they are using Scorch bombs an Inferno torps. So if your ratting use omni tank to cover all bases. Ratting doesnt req high lvl tank.
If he is AFK an upsetting you then good, Your obviously too high strung to be in 0.0 if that simple act rattles you.
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Bloody2k
Gallente SCHWARZSCHILD.
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Posted - 2009.12.31 08:16:00 -
[190]
A other possibility is to "nerf" Cloak....
If you cloack, you freeze the local in the moment you activate the cloak...then yo have to decloak to update it.
Einmal mit Profis! |
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Dangerous Heffer
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Posted - 2009.12.31 09:10:00 -
[191]
Cynoslaver likes men
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FantaKraut
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Posted - 2009.12.31 09:15:00 -
[192]
OP is a moron.
The entire point of the cloak is for gathering intel, the person sitting in local cloaked Is doing what the ****ing cloak is designed for. He cannot do anything other than gather intel, If you don't like it, move somewhere else, change up your tactics a bit try to ditch him.
I have spent many hours sitting in systems cloaked up watching the flow of traffic, Seeing what the pirates are doings, when they get on. IF gathering intel for your personal interests and protection of your corp is an exploit, or griefing then I do not want to play the game.
Its a perfectly valid tactic, the OP is more concerned with them being AFK, which is even more ******ed as an AFK cloaky is even less of a threat. If someone wants to spend their 15 dollars a month watching your movements, spying on you. Who are you to dictate how he/she plays? HDFU or GTFO. |
Sal Marshall
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Posted - 2009.12.31 22:14:00 -
[193]
Edited by: Sal Marshall on 31/12/2009 22:14:46
Originally by: Cynoslaver oh yeah im sure in all warefare you could deny areas to your enemies while being asleep
f'ing idiot
LOL. What do you think the guys in the real life military do when stuck in their tanks/APCs/foxholes do when they need sleep? Go home? They nap unless there is active shooting going down. Area denial doesn't exclude the idea of sleeping, its FUNDAMENTAL to the mechanic.
Now I realize that its not EVERYONE sleeping in these real life situations.. but you get my point.. and just for the record.. back to Eve.. if the cloaked player is sleeping, doesn't this give any non-sleeping player an advantage against the cloaker? Its not like they can provide intelligence while they are in bed snoring..
Finally, I don't know what kind of response you expect to get when taking an aggressive and insulting tone in your own thread... its mystifying.
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Ariel Dawn
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.01.01 00:00:00 -
[194]
You can PvE in PvP fitted ships very easily. If someone uncloaks next to you, fight back instead of TO THE FORUMS. The majority of covops capable ships have fairly poor DPS and the majority of the recons rely on drones as well (aka easy to slag).
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.01.01 01:54:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Sal Marshall
LOL. What do you think the guys in the real life military do when stuck in their tanks/APCs/foxholes do when they need sleep? Go home? They nap unless there is active shooting going down. Area denial doesn't exclude the idea of sleeping, its FUNDAMENTAL to the mechanic.
Exactly! Cloaking up while reading, sleeping, etc is one of the most realistic mechanics in Eve. In a 23X7 environment it should be EXPECTED that people are periodically AFK and that they do all they can to secure thier position while doing so.
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Knobbing Everyone
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Posted - 2010.01.01 08:09:00 -
[196]
So you don't like a cloaked red in local while you want to rat? It gets really easy to counter them.
1. Be in a Home Defense fleet. That way, you get hit, your mates can instantly warp to you! 2. Be on comms! The moment the red engages you, just say belt+ship type on TS/Vent and folks should come to your aid. 3. Rat in something faster / more resilient than a Raven. Dominix, or a HAC. 4. If you have the luxury, have a carrier assign fighters. I personally rat in a Sac with a point and web and fighters assigned when there is a AFK red in local. Rapier / Pilgim / <Whatever is cloaked> wants to come play, I will go down fighting.
Think, don't complain, and then counter using proper game mechanics!
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.01.01 12:23:00 -
[197]
trouble with your idea, is I will jump into belt in cloak at 100k's (nothing worse than jumping into a belt an landing on a rock :(. Second I see fighters in there I am gone,cos I know a Carrier is nearby not to mention the likelihood of backup.
Picking your target is an art form. I'd rather sit in cloak a few more hours an only get 3-4 kills a day than die trying to take on too much.
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Knobbing Everyone
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Posted - 2010.01.01 17:18:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Zill Second I see fighters in there I am gone,cos I know a Carrier is nearby not to mention the likelihood of backup.
Picking your target is an art form. I'd rather sit in cloak a few more hours an only get 3-4 kills a day than die trying to take on too much.
You've made my point. You won't pick me as a target because you know the odds of surviving is a lot less than a lone ratting Raven. Thus, I can continue ratting, make some isk, and you can either chose to wait for a dumb target, OR move on. For me, thus, the game continues This is the point I am trying to make to the OP. Adapt to your environment...
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Dragonmede
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Posted - 2010.01.01 20:52:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Knobbing Everyone
This is the point I am trying to make to the OP. Adapt to your environment...
Exactly What She Said.....
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome or Go Home in a Pod...
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.01.01 21:02:00 -
[200]
ok so I could fake it right now an say I "new" I was making your point for you......But I'd be lieing :( I didn't even notice it till you pointed it it heh
As for the issue, well Fighters will work for any SB even a recon wont tangle with that. I know I should know this, but whats range on fighters ?.
Staying outside a hulks range is nothing but to be honest I dont know the activation range on a fighter
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Knobbing Everyone
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Posted - 2010.01.02 11:33:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Zill As for the issue, well Fighters will work for any SB even a recon wont tangle with that. I know I should know this, but whats range on fighters ?.
I'm not sure either to be honest, I just know they're pesky in that they keep following you around system (unless you recloak ofc). My alt has a Thanatos and Fighters V, so the 5 I can send your way will hurt a bit...
Now, what I also did learn = stealth bomber, bombing fighters...that can be costly at 13mill+ a pop (if the SB pilot gets it just right)
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Zill
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.01.02 20:57:00 -
[202]
Only takes 500 odd damage to pop a Nem, so hes gonna have to be quick. 30k range on bomb launch an only 15k blast.
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Platoon Sergeant
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Posted - 2010.01.03 05:02:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Cynoslaver oh yeah im sure in all warefare you could deny areas to your enemies while being asleep
f'ing idiot
Just for the record.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_in_being
AFK griefing is a historically accurate tactic.
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Zab Zonk
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Posted - 2010.01.03 08:51:00 -
[204]
Edited by: Zab Zonk on 03/01/2010 08:51:11 From the same wikipedia...
""Because of this threat the British decided to attack the Italian fleet at anchor during the famed Battle of Taranto. In this action, the British sank three Italian battleships, about half of the Italian Navy's battleship strength. Realising that Taranto harbour was no longer safe, the Italians relocated the undamaged ships to ports further away.""
So historically speaking afk'ing have been a dangerous tactic afker could allways be attacked ;) i only ask the same risk to be added to eve afk'ers :D
beside all afkers have a danger, except for those in station. 0.0 especially is dangerous. how can you ppl agree to simply drop a cloak on your ship and then be able to afk in any place in this universe no matter how hostile ?
i mean if you are in hostile place least you can do is pay attention to the game in order to survive.
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Jath Tola
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Posted - 2010.01.03 10:40:00 -
[205]
Warning: Wall of Text. Read it all if you plan on replying to it.
"Fleet in being" is not a good metaphor for AFK cloaking. The EvE equivalent of a "fleet in being" would be having many ships docked safely in stations in the system to be denied. In this way, they are available on short notice to undock and attack, much the way fleets-in-being could potentially leave port and attack. (Also the Battle of Taranto was very much the exception to the rule. Do some research.)
A cloaked ship, on the other hand, is much more like a sniper in that their combat utility is ultimately limited by their specialization. They can, however, deny access to an area by their presence. Here is where the AFK part comes in:
A sniper IRL does not, in fact, need to be present to have the desired area-denial effect. The mere knowledge (or belief, even) that there *could* be, or once was, a sniper present is often sufficient. In EvE, due to local being used as an intel tool, cloaked players (the EvE analog to our sniper) cannot leave the system without enemy forces' knowledge. They can instead leave their computers, going AFK. Allow me to explain.
Imagine if you will an EvE without local chat. Someone spots, or is attacked by, a WT covops ship in your system. The covops warps away before it can be killed. The covops pilot can now do one of several things: 1. Cloak and remain in-system (either at keyboard or AFK). 2. Jump out of system. 3. Dock at a station in-system. 4. Log off. With the exception of option 3, you will have no way of telling whether or not said covops ship is still present and/or a threat. This, in effect, denies you your accustomed free run of the system, as you know (or at least believe) that they could reappear at any time and attack, and so must take the necessary precautions (i.e. escort, not flying failships).
Now, with the current system of "everyone shows up in local" imagine the same situation takes place. All goes identically until the covops pilot has warped away. They now have the same options as above. However, option 1 is the only option that allows the covops pilot to maintain the area-denial effect. Leaving system or logging off will be visible in local, and docking carries the same risks of discovery (if a WT happens to be in the same station). If the covops is there for area-denial purposes his only real option is to remain cloaked somewhere in system. Unless he's there to pick off easy or specific targets, or to gather intel, his presence is enough to serve his purpose.
But then what to do? He can't leave the system, can't dock, and can't expose himself in any way or else his cover is blown. In this case a lot of people would go AFK.
Do I like this? No, as I've said before. I think it's rather lame to go AFK for any great length of time no matter what your character is doing. But given the burden placed on the average covops pilot by the omniscience of local chat, there really is no other option. To nerf cloaking, taking away even that one advantage covops pilots have, while leaving local chat the way it is, would make cloaking practically useless except in very specific, very rare situations.
IRL there is no local chat. The only way to find out if you're being actively denied an area is to risk going out in said area. EvE is doing you a favor by warning you of a cloaked pilot's presence via local, so pilots are doing their best to negate this imbalance by sometimes going AFK (meaning sometimes the warning is unnecessary). Without local, this thread would never have been started, because you'd never have known they were there... unless they're not really AFK in the first place, making your complaint moot.
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Platoon Sergeant
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Posted - 2010.01.03 11:09:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Zab Zonk Edited by: Zab Zonk on 03/01/2010 08:51:11 From the same wikipedia...
""Because of this threat the British decided to attack the Italian fleet at anchor during the famed Battle of Taranto. In this action, the British sank three Italian battleships, about half of the Italian Navy's battleship strength. Realising that Taranto harbour was no longer safe, the Italians relocated the undamaged ships to ports further away.""
So historically speaking afk'ing have been a dangerous tactic afker could allways be attacked ;) i only ask the same risk to be added to eve afk'ers :D
beside all afkers have a danger, except for those in station. 0.0 especially is dangerous. how can you ppl agree to simply drop a cloak on your ship and then be able to afk in any place in this universe no matter how hostile ?
i mean if you are in hostile place least you can do is pay attention to the game in order to survive.
The critical logical error you have made is comparing a fleet of battleships moored at a harbour to a lone ship sitting cloaked in the middle of nowhere. A cloaked ship is more analogous a submarine submerged in the middle of the ocean. It can sit for days undetected and passively conduct reconaissance, while your only recourse for finding it is to pretty much bump into it.
I only used the example of a fleet in being to illustrate that idle threats are still threats on both real and fictional battlefields. Just because someone is AFK does not mean they cannot/should not be able to manipulate the battlefield.
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Johnny Yakuza
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Posted - 2010.01.03 11:29:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Cynoslaver There really needs to be some sort of cap fallout or cloak timer to prevent 'overnight' 24/7 around the clock afk griefing in 0.0 space....
everything else has some sort of counter or something you can do, however hard, to fight back.
This just in, "global warming" blamed for dramatic increase in nubbin tears.
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Aaran Logh
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.01.04 22:36:00 -
[208]
wow, this thread really became a how-to-flame tutorial
wasnt this actually about that cloaking is overpowered?
well, to that:
say cloaking IS overpowered, (well it may be a little, but i dont think so), lets see what comes next: every freaking pirate or pvp dude who can fit and use a scanner will find EVERY ship and player in a system without a station that makes scanners overpowered, right? lets remove them! oh, and then the ability to make safespots would be overpowered, lets just remove it...
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Grin Sturm
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Posted - 2010.01.05 00:57:00 -
[209]
If you get killed it's your own fault. There are no immensely overpowered ships or tactics in eve, just the lack of knowledge on how to counter them. A cloaked ship and a real submarine is often considered analogous as previously mentioned. Your encounter shows how effective they are at denying areas and stalling operations by just sitting there hidden, making you nervous. They do have a great disadvantage though, they're friggin expensive and difficult to pvp in. A smart blackops player will not gamble, but attack only if he knows he will win the fight. So don't solo if you know there are blackops present, or fly a decent ship. That'll force them to stay put.
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Gourdo
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.01.05 02:46:00 -
[210]
it is possible to decloak a afk cloaker. I have done it before. All tho it was just pure luck that my warp off point from the station in 0.0 just happened to be where he was sitting at. I am glad he was afk. you know how long it takes to turn a freighter 180 degrease. Bet he was surprise to come back and find him self in a med bay in a fresh clone.
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Sumelar
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Posted - 2010.01.05 07:04:00 -
[211]
Maybe they'll fix it once you can explain how someone who isn't even at their computer could possibly do you harm.
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.01.05 10:14:00 -
[212]
The part we are dancing around is this...
You want the system your in to be completely 100% safe. It burns you that at any moment that cloaked ship could pop up and do you harm. Eve isnt safe. Deal with it.
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Bane Loppknow
Pel Industries
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Posted - 2010.01.05 13:14:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Bane Loppknow on 05/01/2010 13:15:08 Didn't read anything but the OP, cos I'm cool like that. That being said, heres my solution:
Gives cloaks a system similar to overheating. Your cloak, while it remains active, slowly accumulates heat, say, on an hour-long timer. After an hour, your cloak begins taking overheat damage and burns out after 5 minutes, and then you need to repair it.
If you deactivate it at or before 59 minutes 59 seconds, your cloak will relatively quickly (say, 5 minutes?) dissipate the excess heat, allowing you to safely re-cloak with no damage to the module. If you reactivate your cloak before all the excess heat is dissipated, it stays there and accumulates slightly more rapidly. If all the excess heat is dissipated, you get the initial 1 hour timer again.
The Thermodynamics skill could increase the rate at which you dissipate heat.
The in-game explanation is simple: Computers generate heat. A cloak is a very powerful computer. It generates a lot of heat, and since the object is to hide, you can't just let it all bleed into space; someone will 'see' it and figure out where you are.
An active cloaker warps around, maybe shoots at some things, possibly drops a cyno, jumps through gates... all of which require the deactivation of the cloak. As the cloak is inactive and you're popping a cyno or w/e, you're also dissipating heat.
Warping rapidly through multiple systems would generate no heat, as you're typically only in a system for a couple minutes, and cloaked (gate cloaks obviously don't count) for three quarters of that. That's maybe a second of dissipation, which you get when you jump through the gate and the next system loads. You can also hold your gate cloak to dissipate heat, as the gate is cloaking you, not your module.
There are many strategies you could employ to keep your cloak from overheating while remaining uncatchable. For example, you could warp across system and de-cloak while in warp. You're invulnerable, traveling too fast for probes, and it takes time to warp... time that you can use to dissipate heat. The point is that this system would require a conscious pilot in order to remain cloaked in hostile territory, while not making it impossible. EVE isn't safe for anyone... except afk cloakers. It's time that changed.
Also, don't nitpick the times I've given. That would be stupid (I know someone will anyway). This is just a hypothetical system. If it were ever implemented, CCP could figure out their own numbers that they find to be balanced.
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Elora Danzik
Caldari Idiots In Spaceships Psychotic Tendencies.
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Posted - 2010.01.05 18:34:00 -
[214]
Edited by: Elora Danzik on 05/01/2010 18:35:58 then by that logic Bane,
There "should" be a module that can track background heat fluctuations. So, a prober would be able to load thermal probes that scan for heat fluctuations to background radiation. This could work similar to combat probes and could find ships and towers and such just with reduced effecientcy. It would not be able to fine sites.
Thus it would be a cloak ship finder. It could get you with in say 5-10 k of the target with the "decloaking" up to you. obviously the standard skills would apply. With the addition of themodynamics to use the probes.
This would allow people a way to find a cloaker without gimping the cloak.
What should also be obvious is the longer you stay in one location the larger the heat difference becomes allow for faster acquisition. This has the side effect of causing a larger scan deviation. Also the larger the ship the more heat the easier to find.
just a thought.
EDIT: This could also be used to find "recent" combat sites. Weapons create heat. The more weapons teh greater the heat source. So you could probe out missioners or sites that have "active" combat.
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Tammarr
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Posted - 2010.01.05 19:32:00 -
[215]
Why cloak ? Buzzard, point, web, cov cloak(just for sneaking up on ppl), expanded launcher, 2xECCM. co-proc and aux core, oh why the aux core? to fit the ab and the covert cyno. Go afk at safespot without cloaking, risk free.
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Jumponme
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Posted - 2010.01.07 11:06:00 -
[216]
Tbh ... CCP should implement a powersaving routine.
Every client not beeing used for a certain amount of time (like 30min or 1h) should be closed. Eve uses quiet a lot power from your graphicscard (especially from them) ... and CCP should fight for their own sake against global warming since we all know iceland will vanish in the ocean like once atlantis if the poles melt and thus raising the waterlevel.
Though ... part of it is true, another part i made up.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.01.07 11:09:00 -
[217]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 07/01/2010 11:09:05 The real question is, why does CCP allow to post these stupid threads over and over again?
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2010.01.07 11:48:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Future Mutant The part we are dancing around is this...
You want the system your in to be completely 100% safe. It burns you that at any moment that cloaked ship could pop up and do you harm. Eve isnt safe. Deal with it.
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.01.07 15:36:00 -
[219]
Edited by: Andreus LeHane on 07/01/2010 15:40:51
Originally by: Jumponme iceland will vanish in the ocean like once atlantis
Atlantis didn't vanish because of global warming, it vanished because of the fallout from the war over the Celestial Ladder, and is now scattered throughout time and space. Don't you read Mage: The Awakening? -----
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Mova B
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Posted - 2010.01.07 15:44:00 -
[220]
how can something be unfair when you have the option of doing it as well ?
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SirDynty
Gallente Boiians
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Posted - 2010.01.07 18:16:00 -
[221]
this does not have anything to do with game mechanics
its your own paranoia..afk cloaker is not doing anything else,than feeding your paranoia.
You are scared that he MIGHT uncloak and do something,but he isnt uncloaking. I hated them as well,but it is only my paranoia and i know it:) non afk cloakers are different story,but i guess that this topic is not about them |
tribalfreak
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Posted - 2010.01.07 18:35:00 -
[222]
wow how did a thread like this get all these posts lol. even the OP had abandoned it (troll) anyway i'll bite
can the op comeback and explain why afk colocks have you so riled up?
honestly, i've only been here about a month, but really i would do what i always do, if i see a ship wrap in i wrap out it just doesn't make sense to me in general why seeing someone's name in local chat would make one so scared. if they wrap in clocked then they can't even target me when they declocked for a few seconds so i have lots of time to get outta dodge. they can warp in uncloaked and the minute i see them i'm outta there. don't know if there's any flaw in my logic or not, feel free to let me know i'm still learning.
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its seriousbusiness
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Posted - 2010.01.07 19:21:00 -
[223]
All those AFK-Cloak in 0.0 Whining-Threads prove that being a Carebear has nothing to do with being in Highsec running missions
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Joeseph Foenix
Foenix Labs
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Posted - 2010.01.08 05:47:00 -
[224]
Originally by: its seriousbusiness All those AFK-Cloak in 0.0 Whining-Threads prove that being a Carebear has nothing to do with being in Highsec running missions
QFT
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Zedic
Amarr Universalis Imperium
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Posted - 2010.01.24 15:56:00 -
[225]
As one of the former Sneaky Bastards of LV I am offended by the OP. Off with his head.
Read and comprehend first before you open your trap and show everyone in a game where it's possible to find and then run you out of the game, you muppet. You're playing the wrong game if you think you can bray like this and get results. Covops pilots are like gold pressed latinum to their corps and alliances, they are the stuff of change and their success can turn the tide. Acknowledge the cloaked pilot when you see him. Maybe one day he'll answer you. Don't be so egotistical as to think he's there for you and your merry band of mouth breathing 0.0 nuggets. There may be bigger fish to fry, or perhaps the pilot is just trying to find a way back to their WH. The arrogance of noobs never ceases to amuse me.
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Misha'la
Gallente Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
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Posted - 2010.01.24 16:17:00 -
[226]
Ok I read this and can't understand why it's 8 pages long.
AFK Cloakers can do no harm to you. Because first of all, if they're cloaked you're safe. If they uncloak, theres a timer before their systems are working properly, so you can leave before they hit you a good amount of the time.
Why is this such a big discussion? It's like complaining about moons
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Rail Gun
Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2010.01.24 18:02:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Misha'la Ok I read this and can't understand why it's 8 pages long.
AFK Cloakers can do no harm to you. Because first of all, if they're cloaked you're safe. If they uncloak, theres a timer before their systems are working properly, so you can leave before they hit you a good amount of the time.
Why is this such a big discussion? It's like complaining about moons
Well I want to know why CCP allows moons. There really is not any counter for them. They should remove them untill we get Death Star's raygun to Titans...
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Zedic
Amarr Universalis Imperium
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Posted - 2010.01.24 19:11:00 -
[228]
Also this thread reminds me of snipe hunting.
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Haramir Haleths
Caldari Nutella Bande
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Posted - 2010.01.25 11:38:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Haramir Haleths on 25/01/2010 11:38:09 Snipe
*Fail Snipe*
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Madmi CEO
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Posted - 2010.01.25 15:41:00 -
[230]
I could suggest that cloaked people would simply disappear from the local chat. But you know what would happen then? The people who complained about AFK Cloakers will start complaining about them not being visible, and start demanding that they show up in the local chat.
Which will bring us back to where we are now.
That said, I do think it would be a good idea to remove cloaked people from the local chat. Their own local view might even disappear as well - if they want to establish system-wide communications again, they'd need to uncloak. I find it silly that the local chat is used to keep an eye on who's in the system - it is much more powerful than the directional scanner for instance. Most people will be alerted to possible danger by simply scrolling the local chat. If people had less warning about potential dangerous situations, I think the game would be more fun. Miners wouldn't be aligning the second an bogey entered the system, and those ganking the miners wouldn't be warping away as soon as help arrived in the system for the miners.
Some more surprises will keep people on edge, and it would make it more fun altogether. I think.
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Jadwina Kerkova
The Artificial Intelligence
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Posted - 2010.01.25 16:39:00 -
[231]
To take and complete the anti-whiners position:
The problem is not AFK-cloaking, but being able to log off at all (with the consequence of a ship and pilot disappearing because of no consistent ingame reason). |
X Dead
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Posted - 2010.01.26 23:12:00 -
[232]
I have to ask whether the OP's problem is with the "afk" part or the "cloak" part? Or is it just that they don't like knowing somebody is around that they can't find (monsters-under-the-bed-syndrome)?
Cloak: I think the point of a cloak is that you can't find the cloaked entity - or am I missing something in the intent of the device there?
Afk: Afk happens - people get called away and fail to return all the time (sometimes even during operations which can make things... "interesting" for an FC) but that might also break some other activities of the OP's (or folks with similar opionions) and become the next problem. It's very hard to determine the intent of the Pilot in any case - were they called away on an emergency or did they leave to taunt somebody? There are other activities that pilots stay logged in for even when intentionally away too - keeping up with corp chat for when they return is one that come to mind. When leaving for a couple of minutes a warp to a safe is exceedingly common so we can't even correlate that with afk-cloaking.
In any case, the psych-warfare *effects* of afk-cloak can be accomplished both with or without either or both of the "afk" or the "cloak" parts, it's just easier and most commonly done that way. Mind you, there's no way for the target to know which technique is being used and I have little doubt they'll keep having issues and blame it on afk-cloaking even when other methods are used.
Boiled down, for folks in a system with a hidden pilot it's really that they don't want to be subject to "I don't know where somebody I could be scared of is and can't find out" psych-warfare. At least admit it. I think that most forms of in-game warfare within the intent of the mechanics is on (allowing some wiggle for exploits there) so it will probably be hard to argue for a change based on the current logic. Get mocked, sure; get a change made, rather more difficult. |
Atraxerxes
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit General Panic.
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Posted - 2010.01.27 02:25:00 -
[233]
I may be a little late in this thread (meaning I'm at the point where nobody is reading just waiting for their turn to talk), but I have to agree cloaking needs a counter measure or change (call it a nerf if you want).
Whether or not it's a change to the item such as making it a non recurring activation. Say a 1 or 2 hour cycle with no chance to repeat without manually activating it again. (of course this could be macro'd)
Or make cloaking devices use charges or crystals that will wear out. I would advocate that they be very small so that many could be fit in a cargo hold).
Sitting cloaked up and stalking your enemy for hours is a viable tactic and should be protected, but sitting in a system cloaked while you go to work or school is just fricken' lame, even if you try to call it something fancy like Strategic Area of Denial.
AX
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IbanezLaney
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Posted - 2010.01.27 04:46:00 -
[234]
I don't see how it matters if someone sits cloaked.
If they are spying and you know they are there - do something to give them false intel. Use it to your own advantage.
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Damion Rayne
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2010.01.27 06:24:00 -
[235]
I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and pose the major question to the OP that neds posing,
Have you ever been in any real life military situation? Have you ever studied military tactics and strategy?
I'm going to shoot for the "no" response to both of these questions. Now while I have been active duty military it still doesn't give me the right to bring things that happen in a real combat situation into a game.
What I will do however is link real military tactics and strategy to this question. An AFK cloaker is infact no threat to you what so ever. This is psychological warfare. They have allready won, your overzealous need to whine ***** moan and complain about their presence and cry to CCP askign for a change to a game mechanic denots just that simple fact. You have been beaten. A person sitting AFK cloaked is infact no different then having an UAV in real life loiter over an enemy target and send acurate and up to date inteligence on enemy threat's and assets. You really need to think seriously about what your complaining about here. You are complaining about fundamental military tactics and strategy. Covert Operations is never fair. The sniper does not ask permission to shoot you from a mile away.
THink about that.
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Shepard Book
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.01.27 11:18:00 -
[236]
Edited by: Shepard Book on 27/01/2010 11:21:19 Edited by: Shepard Book on 27/01/2010 11:20:38 The problem is having a local to begin with. Remove local from 0.0 We should not know ahead of time if there are hostiles around and the numbers in the fleet.
You should have protection if you decide to carebear after you already get a FREE warning there are hostiles around. |
Gwenivere Diamond
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Posted - 2010.01.28 18:37:00 -
[237]
In a game where nearly anything at all is either permissable or encouraged im not sure how cloaking of all things would be counted as griefing regardless of where and how long it takes place.
To me this is in the same vein as those who are essentially *****ing that enemies do not sit in one spot with their tank turned off for you to kill them at your leisure, you just want 0.0 quality space with no risk to your ship. Nothing in this game is free and operating with hostiles or unkowns in space is something you'll have to get used to or be paralyzed with fear in station and it will be no one's fault but your own.
If you're not in high sec be prepared to fight or at least prepared to escape and if you are in high sec be prepared to survive a suicide. If you suspect someone is AFK cloaked ignore them and do what you gotta do. AFK cloaking stays.
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Pay Tiger
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Posted - 2010.01.28 18:52:00 -
[238]
I'm a little confused. How does being cloaked in a system affect someone to the point that it's griefing? My EVE blog |
jodine
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Posted - 2010.01.28 19:55:00 -
[239]
whats the diffrence between afk cloaking and afk in the station. either way they could become not afk on at any time
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Masquitar
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Posted - 2010.01.28 21:17:00 -
[240]
Edited by: Masquitar on 28/01/2010 21:18:57
Originally by: jodine whats the diffrence between afk cloaking and afk in the station. either way they could become not afk on at any time
I can understand the OP's frustration, particularly in the case of cov ops capable pilot long term afk campers.
The situation described by Jodine is very different to that of an enemy being afk in station. Both the location and to small extent the timing of said enemy's undocking can be predicted. Added to this the fact that a docked player is blind to what's going on outside the station. These factors make for a balanced mechanic in which it's possible for either side to gain an advantage through player input and game mechanics.
In the case of a cov ops cloaked pilot, an enemy's timing and location of uncloaking is very unpredictable and the cov ops capable ship pilot is able to see there surroundings first hand anywhere in system. These are of course fully intended mechanics and should be left alone. But when combined with a 23/7 afk cloaked system camping situation, I can fully understand the logic of implementing a balancing mechanic to make long term cloaked system camping more difficult from the campers point of view, and counterable from the everybody elses point of view.
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Kijo Rikki
Caldari Swarm of Angry Bees
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Posted - 2010.01.29 00:14:00 -
[241]
ok, i started glazing over posts about midway down the page so forgive me if its already been covered.
I think the OP was more concerned about intel (by mentioning an opposing alliance can put an afk cloaker in every single system your alliance holds, effectively giving them 24 hour 100% coverage on intel, minus exact fleet dispositions, of course, assuming he's not on a gate or some place easily accesible) and was not so concerned about her own ship.
While I see her point, the reality is if not them, then spies in your alliance would do this service. Also, if they want to pay an extra 15$ for intel on each system you have, more power to them. They pay for patch upgrades...and hotfixes.
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Cunane
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.29 01:34:00 -
[242]
I saw "Why does CCP allow" as a topic and thought "wow this could be a fun forum game!"
My answer is "why does ccp allow you to own an account despite the fact your not of a sound mind for something as deadly serious as internet spaceships"
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.01.29 02:03:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Cynoslaver There really needs to be some sort of cap fallout or cloak timer to prevent 'overnight' 24/7 around the clock afk griefing in 0.0 space.
I'm all for griefing people and killing them and hunting them, but it is pretty f'in ridiculous that cloak has absolutely no counters. There's no realistic way to hunt the person, there's no chance their cloak will fail, nothing.
I mean jesus after they've been afk cloaking for 2 hours at least give the cloak a CHANCE to fail What the hell is ccp thinking that this somehow adds somethign to the game? And spare me the BS about "welcome to 0.0 space" bla bla typical stupid comments, make a real argument here if you think this is right.
everything else has some sort of counter or something you can do, however hard, to fight back.
Maybe they will do it the same day they add "no local" in null sec, as for now I personally enjoy entering a system and making 30 people dock up. It's rather amusing TBH. .....
FactionWarfare.com New forum dedicated to all four FW factions. |
Aesynil
Caldari The Unit...
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Posted - 2010.01.30 09:20:00 -
[244]
I used to agree with the OP, and loathe...-loathe- AFK cloakers. However, after living in WH space, I really don't. I really agree with all of those posters that say that local is the real issue here, not the cloakers. You are in 0.0 space. Null security. Lawless space. There -should- be somebody always lurking in the shadows, waiting to mercilessly destroy you if you get too careless. The only problem here is that you're aware of when there -aren't- those hostiles lurking in the shadows, so notice when they are present.
Fly in Wormhole space for a while. Get used to -always- flying 100% on guard. :)
Of course, covert cynos and Black Ops jump bridges do suck, and that's not an issue there...Hrm...Ah well. The spirit of my point still stands, I think.
The Unit pursues invention, manufacturing, mining, and research. Evemail us if you need anything related to Science and Industry. |
chrisss0r
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Posted - 2010.01.30 10:22:00 -
[245]
I love it how people insists that there is no reallife equivalent to afk-cloaking while those sleeper jihadists sit at kfc and talk about the the last football match just to blow themselves up in a mall the next day :f
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Aesynil
Caldari The Unit...
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Posted - 2010.01.30 10:31:00 -
[246]
Originally by: chrisss0r I love it how people insists that there is no reallife equivalent to afk-cloaking while those sleeper jihadists sit at kfc and talk about the the last football match just to blow themselves up in a mall the next day :f
....Guh?
The Unit pursues invention, manufacturing, mining, and research. Evemail us if you need anything related to Science and Industry. |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.02.03 02:11:00 -
[247]
Stealth "local" whine detected.
[Aussie players: join channels ANZAC or AUSSIES] |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.02.03 13:35:00 -
[248]
I live in WH space these days. Without local as an instant, infallible source of intel, life actually seems risky. You never know what's lurking out there in the shadows, whether that Drake is just a carebear grinding sleepers or a full-tackle HAM platform with cloaked recon support. Okay, the address book and killboards still provide intel, but it's not perfect and it's not instant.
Then recently I found a WH to 0.0. I went through... one in local, wrecks on scan, Raven on scan, nice! Raven off scan... oh, he's seen me in local. A few minutes later, I see local spike, realise that Teh Blob is here, and GTFO. All because of local. The Raven was easily able to avoid me, and I was easily able to avoid them.
It's just so... stupid. Scouting should be one of the most important professions in the game, but all too often it's relegated to "look at local".
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ZiYauRen
Gallente Sang Do Administraiton Sang Do Oligarchic Democracy
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Posted - 2010.02.03 17:51:00 -
[249]
"Then recently I found a WH to 0.0. I went through... one in local, wrecks on scan, Raven on scan, nice! Raven off scan... oh, he's seen me in local. A few minutes later, I see local spike, realise that Teh Blob is here, and GTFO. All because of local. The Raven was easily able to avoid me, and I was easily able to avoid them."
"It's just so... stupid. Scouting should be one of the most important professions in the game, but all too often it's relegated to "look at local". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What he said....
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Brent riper
Caldari Night Wolves Deprived of Existence by Mercenaries of the Night
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Posted - 2010.02.03 18:28:00 -
[250]
Originally by: ZiYauRen "Then recently I found a WH to 0.0. I went through... one in local, wrecks on scan, Raven on scan, nice! Raven off scan... oh, he's seen me in local. A few minutes later, I see local spike, realise that Teh Blob is here, and GTFO. All because of local. The Raven was easily able to avoid me, and I was easily able to avoid them."
"It's just so... stupid. Scouting should be one of the most important professions in the game, but all too often it's relegated to "look at local". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What he said....
i second that remove local problem fixed.
Now Really srsly another cloaker post.
i stopped being a forum troll for 2 months and i come back and its the same cloaker posts.. why hasnt this been deleted removed locked or what ever there is a good 20 forum threads exactly like this one with the exact same people posting with almost the exact same answers and opinions.
what i find interesting is why does ccp allow THIS thread to be even created when so many other threads consist of the exact same content jst another stupid emo rage quit argument about what OP and others think about cloaking and intel and how they disapprove of such tactics, or lack there of.
answer is always the same let cloakers alone jst remove local aka make 0.0 like w/h space.
AND further more, Carthage must be destroyed!! |
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Meredith Midnight
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Posted - 2010.02.04 00:42:00 -
[251]
First - I don't mind cloaking as it is now (though i do support the forced logoff after idle for 30 min deal).
I've always thought the issue with afk cloaking was the fact that they're there, its like a virus, its there, they can attack at any moment and there's nothing you can do about it.
If they're in a station, then you know where they are, and you have reasonably good intel (if its an active system) when they undock, and you KNOW they can't attack you.
If they're unprobable then you can 'get close enough' by warping and dropping bms until you can burn towards them, especially if they're afk for 22/7. And the fact that you know what type of ship they're in gives the defenders the ability to make a counter-measure.
Also, playing at a constant heightened sense of awareness isn't in everyone's book of fun. Those that do would certainly enjoy wormholes. For the rest, 0.0 and empire. Which i think is the central point.
For most people, I assume its fun to know you can be ganked at any time, and that as long as you take a certain amount of precautions, you're relatively safe (a reward for playing smart if you will), and that the deeper you go, the more precautions you have to take.
Casual --> (Empire > Lowsec > 0.0 > WH) <-- Hardcore
That's my 2 cents anyway
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sirchops
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Posted - 2010.02.04 01:42:00 -
[252]
Edited by: sirchops on 04/02/2010 01:45:06 Why Dose CCP Allow Posts About This To Keep Popoing Up?
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Calrissias
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Posted - 2010.02.14 22:20:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Cynoslaver There really needs to be some sort of cap fallout or cloak timer to prevent 'overnight' 24/7 around the clock afk griefing in 0.0 space.
---------------------------------------------
Become a 24/7 overnight greifer?
or dont go to 0.0 if u cant handle watching ur ass all the time
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Leviathan Tank
Universal Army Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.02.15 00:33:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Cynoslaver There really needs to be some sort of cap fallout or cloak timer to prevent 'overnight' 24/7 around the clock afk griefing in 0.0 space.
I'm all for griefing people and killing them and hunting them, but it is pretty f'in ridiculous that cloak has absolutely no counters. There's no realistic way to hunt the person, there's no chance their cloak will fail, nothing.
I mean jesus after they've been afk cloaking for 2 hours at least give the cloak a CHANCE to fail What the hell is ccp thinking that this somehow adds somethign to the game? And spare me the BS about "welcome to 0.0 space" bla bla typical stupid comments, make a real argument here if you think this is right.
everything else has some sort of counter or something you can do, however hard, to fight back.
lolol
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Varlen Korva
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Posted - 2010.02.15 19:08:00 -
[255]
Mmmmm....
So many delicious tears from this thread.
Apparently, if you don't agree with the op, your a f'ing 5th grader who is just trolling him...
Im a total carebear, I only run missions, and yes, I'm telling you to f'ing learn to play...
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nether void
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.02.15 19:48:00 -
[256]
Don't have the time right now to read the whole thread. lol Sorry if this has already been said:
I think the counter is that cloaking should use up fuel over time. That would solve this issue. A certain amount of ozone or something per cycle. Just like u-boats needed fuel. Eventually they have to dock up, which is when they're most vulnerable. So then if the cloak needs to dock for fuel every hour or so of continual use, you could at least have a chance at catching a spy as he has to come in for fuel at some point. Add some cat and mouse into the mix.
IMO that would give a bit better balance to the system.
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zanthon
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Posted - 2010.03.05 00:07:00 -
[257]
The current cloaking method is great, in fact its so good that they can log in, cloak up and go to work or school for most of the day and come back and gank someone after they are used to the hostile in system.
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kano donn
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Posted - 2010.03.05 03:16:00 -
[258]
got to the end of the first page before i realized this was a very elegant troll.
.02 isk -
Current Cloak is wonderful, CCP please dont change it.
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foksieloy
Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.05 08:13:00 -
[259]
Silly troll, no feeding for you.
2/10. _______________________ We come for our people! |
Tejal Charu
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Posted - 2010.03.05 11:42:00 -
[260]
More like 3.8/10 for lots of replies. |
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Marcus Akhellan
Ch3mic4l Warfare The Ascendent Dominion
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Posted - 2010.03.07 23:27:00 -
[261]
Get rid of Local *everywhere* - Never made sense anyway.
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Bud Johnson
Broski Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.08 06:11:00 -
[262]
Originally by: kano donn got to the end of the first page before i realized this was a very elegant troll.
.02 isk -
Current Cloak is wonderful, CCP please dont change it.
Yeah. Elegant. Like clubbing a baby seal.
I give it a 10/10 for 8 pages sense he last posted though.
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Kroma BaSyl
Amarr Snickers Inc
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Posted - 2010.03.09 20:26:00 -
[263]
A simpler solution would be to just remove local, then you can't be griefed by afk cloakers.
-------------------------
Kroma BaSyl CEO - Snickers Inc
Don't hate me because I am beautiful! |
Larinioides cornutus
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Posted - 2010.03.10 10:16:00 -
[264]
Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 10/03/2010 10:16:37
Originally by: Kroma BaSyl A simpler solution would be to just remove local, then you can't be griefed by afk cloakers.
And remove easy belt bookmarks in 0.0/low sec as well, make them all anomalies-style. Then ppl cant just randomly jump on a belt hoping for a lucky hit.
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VanNostrum
Tigers Of Anatolia
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Posted - 2010.03.10 12:31:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Marcus Akhellan Get rid of Local *everywhere* - Never made sense anyway.
This You already have a chat window with corp, alliance, stamp collectors' club etc why have a chat channel with entire system? This causes problems in trade hubs as well. You can already open convo, create-join channels anytime. Why have a local? Why should we have an instant intel on who entered the system, his/her name, corp, alliance, kb info on various sites as well as forum posts, even personal info if we try?
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Kroma BaSyl
Amarr Snickers Inc
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Posted - 2010.03.10 18:12:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Larinioides cornutus Edited by: Larinioides cornutus on 10/03/2010 10:16:37
Originally by: Kroma BaSyl A simpler solution would be to just remove local, then you can't be griefed by afk cloakers.
And remove easy belt bookmarks in 0.0/low sec as well, make them all anomalies-style. Then ppl cant just randomly jump on a belt hoping for a lucky hit.
Seems unnecessary, since there are both anomalies and belts in most systems, only the stupid would hang out in belts, and I disagree the mechanics of game should prevent stupidity.
-------------------------
Kroma BaSyl CEO - Snickers Inc
Don't hate me because I am beautiful! |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.03.10 20:19:00 -
[267]
How about we just get rid of targeting, that way no-one can gank each other. -----
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Dark Lightening
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Posted - 2010.03.10 21:22:00 -
[268]
Who decided to raise the zombie thread?
Oh, and cloaks are fine. AFK "griefers" aren't doing much griefing while they are AFK. They are there so you get used to them in local and let your guard down to them, to take away your advantage you get when you watch local for new reds/neuts.
Stay ganged up with your corp mates in system and aligned out, so when they suddenly stop being AFK and try to grab your carebear ass you can still get away. Or move to another system.
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Syryin
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Posted - 2010.03.10 23:57:00 -
[269]
Gonna step out on a limb here, I believe (smack talk aside) that the OP is absolutly correct. I mean, how can people be expected to play this game when there are shadows lurking everywhere?
But it is my firm belief that the OP didnt go far enough. I believe null sec NPC stations should be removed from the game as well. Those pesky shadows can dock...and then we can't rat in saftey cause they will undock and spook us. Furthermore, I would like to have complete control over the jump gates so when im in system, i can turn them off and deny traffic "so's i can rats with me privacies".
Actually, rolling with that point, CCP just needs to give each player his own system. Lets just take gates and interaction completely out of the game. That way, CCP (and the rest of us) wont have to read about whiny little pilots getting aggro'd over dumb stuff.
And lets take away recons cause they have devil devices that make me think everyones out to get me. And lets remove guns and missile launchers too. And while it hasnt been said before, i strongly believe that points are well overrated and are ready for retirement. I mean, come-on...if i wanted to pvp, id go pvp. Right?
--all bs aside, I fly in hostile null w/o the full support of a fleet or docking rights. I rat, i gank, i scan for wh's and anoms and go with the flow. And i use my cloak to do just that, go afk for a few minutes. Beats choosing between losing my ship and losing my blatter to infection.
Guess what im trying to say is, you have taken one use for a module and applied your ignorant interpretations to all who use it, even though there are a plethora of uses for it besides afk grieving.
CCP, please give him his own closed off system or a prescription of Paxil so that he may continue to live life without this overwhelming paranoia he seems to have acquired.
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Tom Peeping
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Posted - 2010.03.11 01:20:00 -
[270]
Edited by: Tom Peeping on 11/03/2010 01:21:30
Originally by: Cynoslaver oh yeah im sure in all warefare you could deny areas to your enemies while being asleep
f'ing idiot
hmmmm.... actually, the "threat" of being able to apply force with very little warning to an unprepared enemy is a very common tactic... used in modern warfare, historic warfare, and (gasp) this game. spies and scouts are also extremely common.
Second, a cloaked ship is a bit of a threat, yes.... but it's also a very common tactic to try to restrict an enemies ability to gather resources via either threatened or actual force. In all honesty, despite all the complaints that this tactic gets, this element of eve adds a massive element of realism to the game presuming the presence of local as an intel tool. The only way to make it better imo would be to get rid of local entirely.
Lastly, a cloaked ship is often very intentionally trying to make you feel "safe" because you think they are afk? On what basis are you presuming you know, without any doubt that they are simply perma afk... exclusively to bother you? If you're so certain of this, why does it bother you? If you know without any doubt that they are afk, then feel free to rat without any concern. If they might not be afk, then it's working as intended.
Sorry to disagree with you mate, but there's some very decent reasons to hold the opposite opinion. It's not just that CCP are ridiculous. You're welcome not to like it... but that's a whole separate issue.
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Herpes Sweatrash
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Posted - 2010.03.11 01:49:00 -
[271]
Remove local Make cloaking ship scannable and probeable (it just don't appear on overview) Move all lvl4 agent to low sec/null
everyone is happy
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Xtover
Suicide Kings
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Posted - 2010.03.17 13:50:00 -
[272]
Disable D-scanner and probes while cloaked. Covops unaffected.
good enuff?
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Arnaud Lefevre
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Posted - 2010.03.18 00:14:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Molly Milli0ns Every time someone makes one of these threads, baby Jesus cries. And Christmas is right around the corner. You animal.
:-)
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HerrHeuschrecke
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Posted - 2010.04.21 01:04:00 -
[274]
10 bloody pages, wow.... Go to sleep now, babe....
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Rogan T'van
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Posted - 2010.04.21 04:26:00 -
[275]
I didnt read all the pages but wouldnt a bomb expose a cloaked ship? Plus with the exception of maybe a well fitted t3 cruiser with cov ops recon, most ships designed to use a cloak would be pretty much taken down to hull by a single bomb.
Yah bombs arent cheap but it would be a hell of a show.
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Friar KIte
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Posted - 2010.04.21 07:09:00 -
[276]
I have been seriously playing this game for roughly a month, only did some screwing around with it back at the tail end of quantum rise, and even I know that nowhere is safe in eve, only safer. If you pay attention and don't take stupid risks, you know, the things that are pretty much required if you want to live longer than 5 minutes in nullsec, theres a good chance cloakers won't be able to do anything to you. I mean honestly, if you put half the effort that you have spent complaining about cloaked people that do nothing into actually figuring out a way to work with the game mechanic, this would be a moot point.
tl;dr, Stop complaining and start doing.
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Ramiera DaMorre
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Posted - 2010.04.21 07:58:00 -
[277]
I'm sooo going to call my SB "Красный Октябрь".
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KillUJim
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Posted - 2010.04.22 00:46:00 -
[278]
10 pages of lolz...epic
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Musical Fist
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.04.22 01:33:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Cynoslaver There really needs to be some sort of cap fallout or cloak timer to prevent 'overnight' 24/7 around the clock afk griefing in 0.0 space.
Yup its called DT This is so not my main |
SGT Arachnid
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Posted - 2010.04.22 14:04:00 -
[280]
ok so bored sh!tless as work i read all 10 pages.....sad ik....what it came down to is a VERY small group of people cry about afk-cloakers. How they are there and they dont do anything and how they stop u from ur 00 mining or ratting or plexing. Its all just a bunch of people that have no clue how to problem solve. Ill give u a break down of the Cloaked ships just for u Mr topic maker:
Covert Ops: nothing but a scout/recon. doesnt do any DPS that matters, only good for afk-cloaking, probing out people, then pointing/tackling them for ur fleet/gang 1 just out to burn in and zap ur target(s) down.
SB: amazing glasscannons in every respect. Bombs and torps made this a amazing BC+ killing. and in groups of 4-8 can take whole fleets to their knees. But again. they arent anything that 5 light drones cant fix or even med. They are just paper thin at best and any ratting/plex ship ur hanging out in should be able to take it op easy. yes bomb hurt, but thats why we have SB to a new twist on cloaked warfare.
Recons: talking about the cloaked ones here, they are great for tackle someone down and letting ur gang/fleet jump all over them and zap them down. but they themselfs arent amazing at killing solo. Pilgrim can do amazing things but it has to pick and choose targets carrfully solo. Arazu, my favorite recon, has **** all DPS, but can lock down someone nicely until u get ur fleet in. its not about to go out soloing people. Rapier is an amazing frig killer solo like those dam dramiels. But again like SB, they ships are thin tankeds with just one real roll, tackling and recon work for fleets/gangs
Black Ops: Hands down the most underpowered ships in the game atm imo. They are just cloakingships fo thier t1 brothers. SIN, nothing but a overpriced nuet/nos domi, i cmake a better one with the Domi. Widow, its a falcon in all respects. keep it to that and u will do ok. But it isnt going to win any DPS race.Redremmer and pather, now those are some amazing DPS with nice buffer/active tanks, but nothing to much better then their t1 brothers. Yes tehy ahve a place when urs for what they are ment. But if someone is using one of these as a afk-cloaker u need to let me know ill move a alt into ur corp just waiting for them to come out with it.
All said and down, thats the basic break down of the cloakers. Covert ops, SB,Recons cant do much on their own. They arent anything to run and hide from if u know tehy are afk-cloakers. U just have to know that at any moment u will have to bug out. so if thats the case u have to have probes added to ur d-scan and just watch for them. also be aligned to something when ratting/plexing. And u shouldnt be mining solo anyways. So again there nothing about afk cloakers taht "op" "griefing" "needs a nerf" Nothing about them crys out nerf bat.
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Bort Alexos
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Posted - 2010.04.22 15:06:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 15/12/2009 22:18:16
Originally by: Cynoslaver Avoida "Hah I have all these 1337 tactics you just dont know about...I won't mention them here, because like...you know I earned all these things through hard work. I knwo the answer, I just wont tell"
You haven't done or said anything that'd make you deserve to know.
Here's an example of how to post a question and get an answer:
Quote:
Subject: AFK cloaker strategy
Hi. I'm a n00b in an alliance and we have some AFK cloakers in our system. Can you share any tactics on how to counter these guys? They really put a damper on our mining and ratting ops. We've tried this/that/the other thing but haven't managed to get him. Is there a better tactic or do we just need more patience?
Instead, you posted a crybaby rant about a well-established game mechanic that has been around for years, and then impugned everyone before they even replied, and then wonder why the hostility. Classic troll behavior. You got what you asked for. Now eat ****, loser.
Didn't read every post to page 10, but this guy won the topic on page 1.
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Ste Weiss
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Posted - 2010.04.23 11:42:00 -
[282]
Your trying to find fault with something that isnt faulty.
It's called psychological warfare, theres been loads of times where iv been going to and fro in a system knowing there was an afk arazu cloaked at a safe.
Cloaking is fine, as i said on another topic about this, there aint nout wrong with the cloaking mods, all you can do is bubble gates and camp in him with ceptors orbiting with drones out, either provoking a fight or making sure he cant escape.
We've all been there, get used to it.
ste
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Billybob Braggins
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:30:00 -
[283]
Originally by: alt9854 And that guys, is how you troll. You take a topic that would provoke typical responses and fuel it from quoting replies. Would have been better if you used a topic other than AFK cloaking, it's all a little easy (ninja salvaging being another example!).
Half right, but no proper troll spams the first page like this one. The quality of a troll is measured by how many responses you can get with the OP, without spamming the post with alts either.
AFK Cloaker response was 10/10 though, I hope it's not an alt of the troll. Another good thing about this thread was the topic, which is actually very catchy in the e-thugging fest of EVE. |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.04.25 11:23:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Cynoslaver Inappropriate content removed.Applebabe
"local" isn't a counter to afk cloaking, afk cloaking is just stupid, it's not strategic. Heaven forbid an eve player actually have to "play" ti grief someone (gasp)...
no. Cloaking is a counter to local and endless carebearing, fu***** id***!
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Pokechan333
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Posted - 2010.04.26 02:22:00 -
[285]
Welcome to 0.0
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Jeneroux
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.26 22:16:00 -
[286]
Checklist for trip to 0.0
Insurance: check Clone: check A fortune in cargo: check Probes: check Weapons: pity Cloak: check
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joshua boston
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Posted - 2010.05.01 10:21:00 -
[287]
yeah people sit there in the shadows for days at a time not doing anything and just watching all the time. Sniper teams wont move for days and they're sole purpose is to observe their particular sector... Terrorists sleeper cells do the same thing... scout/observers for IED trigger men .... your post is void. Quit crying.
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daemonna
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Posted - 2010.07.13 07:12:00 -
[288]
afk cloaker??? how do you know if he's afk??? did you put camera in his room?? did you put key-logger in his PC???
maybe it's just your ex-girlfriend and you're angry... so chill out :D
PS: they should ban such wtf-threads...
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