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Stop wardeccing in high-sec unless wardec is mutual

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Shivani	Posted - 2010.02.22 11:47:00 - [61] Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde So your defense is that you are a player whose old character explains away his poor grammer, moderate literacy, bad spelling, horrible ideas, shady judgement, etc and believe this makes you and the OP less of an embarassment....how? how many languages do you speak? i am able to read and write in 6 languages, though not perfect. we can as well talk in my native language, if you prefer that? might it be possible, that not all ppl in the world are native talkers? could that be? wow, could you imagine, that there are some other ppl in the world but enlish and americans? wow.... impressive. nah that can't be.

CCP Shadow Caldari C C P	Posted - 2010.02.22 14:46:00 - [62] Please stay on topic.

James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.02.22 16:06:00 - [63] Not supported. I love picking on newbies who cannot fight back.
Mielono Caldari SWARTA	Posted - 2010.02.22 17:22:00 - [64] Not supported, high sec wardecs allows a version of highsec piracy which tempers and controls new corporations. If a corp does not get wardecced in highsec it will never be able to prepare for its eventual decent into lowsec or null. I hate to say it, this is a sandbox, the ability to wardec allows the formation of merc corps and pirate corps. I would not be against the limit of one week of warfare without the fight going mutual with a 24 hour cooldown before allowing the coorps to redeclare, this way even your highsec carebearish types can have a bit to resupply before the fighting starts back up as well as slowing down those just doing it for griefing instead of any monetary gain.
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.02.22 17:37:00 - [65] War should not be a WoW-style duel. Eve is not the land of teddy bears and pointy-eared elves. Eve is not a fluffy cartoon land. High sec is not meant to coddle, it is meant to offer minimal protection so new players can learn the game and older players can participate in some activities in relative peace. War is an instrument for other players to disrupt said activities, forcing players out of their bubble so they experience more of the game. This is not to say that PVE players should be forced into PVP. War decs usually happen when players stay in the same place, doing the same thing, for an extended period of time. There are so many aspects of PVE that players would fail to experience if they were allowed to stay stuck in a rut. A war forces players to branch out and try new things. "It is by opposition that we grow." "Adversity precedes growth." "If we're growing, we're always going to be out of our comfort zone." "The unexamined life is not worth living." "When you're finished changing, you're finished." Fix Local
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.22 18:52:00 - [66] Originally by: Vaal Erit Starting wars with no reason or purpose against new players is a problem, but not to be solved by making wars useless and making high sec logistics near invulnerable. Bah. High sec logistics are already invulnerable save for suicide ganking. It's called an alt in an NPC corp and it is slightly more common than farming in the North American prairies. The OP doesn't have a good solution (as in wardecs being mutual) but there does need to be some way to fix the horribly awful current 'pay to grief' system. All it does is drive new players out of the game in frustration and that is simply not a good thing. Not to mention that with all the station games, remote repping and Concord mix Empire wars are loopy anywhoo. The whole thing needs a re-vamp, but mutuality only is not the way. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
blod miner	Posted - 2010.02.22 19:38:00 - [67] Edited by: blod miner on 22/02/2010 19:37:58 im suporting this because wardec is a broke way 2 harass new players. I liked 2 know how many wardec are made between old and established corp (perct.) Originally by: De'Veldrin War is a non-consensual activity. I doubt very much that the Germans (yes I went there) sent a nicely worded note to Paris asking, if it wouldn't be too awful much bother, if the French would mind terribly if they invaded and conquered their country. I'm sure the French fell all over themselves saying "Oh by all means help yourself." perfect there but they fought 4 a territory or for resources, so why not the wardec only valid in a certain constelation or solar system or region leaving the rest of the space safe making possible 2 new corp 2 avoid the fight. think that like switzerland. another way 2 balance the thing was extending the period prior the war start to 48 hours and adding the option do get a corp that gonna fight that war 4 u. EX: you recieve a wardec from a corp. u during the waiting period can talk 2 varios merc corp and if they accept it they gonna become flagged in your place. i dont know if is possible 2 receive varios wardec but if it is limiting to one. this are some ideas 2 keep the wardec but i think this will balance it more.
gwabakk	Posted - 2010.02.22 20:26:00 - [68] Well i didn't figure that my original post would draw so much strong (and sometimes emotional) responses. It has been an interesting read so far. I'm glad that there has been much acknowledgement of the failings and abuse of the wardeccing mechanism, although support for my proposed solution has fallen short. From all that I have read I have concluded for myself too that it is indeed the wrong solution for the problem at hand. On the other hand I have been a bit dissapointed about some posts that claimed that you should not complain and just fight, because they feel that is what eve is all about (or should be about). Like I argued before, eve is also about free choice of the path you want to go, and I frankly sometimes felt quite some disrespect and even despise towards the part of the eve community that chooses a mining/industrialism path. However, as the eve community as a whole depends very much on miner/industrialist, that is a bit short sighted to say the least. Please lets have respect for each other. For the rest, I stick to the opinion that wardeccing rules should change, but I retract my original solution, as clearly that was not the right one. There were some interesting suggestions that I hope will be elaborated further and which might lead to a solution that is acceptable to everyone. Thanks for all your contributions so far. Gwabakk
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.22 21:19:00 - [69] There's no arguing that the wardec system needs reforming, but making wardecs optional* isn't the way forward. A more formal system with declared grievances, declared objectives and declared peace conditions would be better. And these should apply to both parties. If the wardeccing corp declares a peace condition of "disband corp", then it is under the same ban itself. The war continues until one corp disbands. That would add an element of risk and increase the value of mercs, no? Ditto for a peace condition of "pay 1 billion ISK". If the deccing corp wants to impose this peace condition, it should have to put up a bond for that amount, which they forfeit if they let the war lapse. But with more stringent conditions on the deccing corp, should also come more stringent conditions on the decced. eg: wardec follows characters leaving either corp for 24 hours, no-one in corp can create a new corp for the duration of the war, etc etc. The tactic of cycling through corps to evade a dec is just as cheap as the tactic of deccing noob corps. *Yes I know they pretty much are already, but you know what I mean.
TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.02.22 21:31:00 - [70] Originally by: Zonefire The original purpose of this thread was to propose some way for new high sec, non-combat focus corps to avoid being griefed by people who have RL problems. What about those people who use war decs against high sec corps but don't actually have RL problems? Not everyone who wardecs empire corps is a mental basket case, some players actually like to PVP in a PVP game

The PitBoss Caldari Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.22 21:42:00 - [71] Edited by: The PitBoss on 22/02/2010 21:42:26 DAMN .... How'd I miss this one ... page 3 NO SUPPORT Thank-You, The Pitboss (Space between The & Pitboss) Signatures by: Kalen Vox
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.02.22 22:20:00 - [72] Originally by: Malcanis There's no arguing that the wardec system needs reforming, but making wardecs optional* isn't the way forward. A more formal system with declared grievances, declared objectives and declared peace conditions would be better. And these should apply to both parties. If the wardeccing corp declares a peace condition of "disband corp", then it is under the same ban itself. The war continues until one corp disbands. That would add an element of risk and increase the value of mercs, no? Ditto for a peace condition of "pay 1 billion ISK". If the deccing corp wants to impose this peace condition, it should have to put up a bond for that amount, which they forfeit if they let the war lapse. But with more stringent conditions on the deccing corp, should also come more stringent conditions on the decced. eg: wardec follows characters leaving either corp for 24 hours, no-one in corp can create a new corp for the duration of the war, etc etc. The tactic of cycling through corps to evade a dec is just as cheap as the tactic of deccing noob corps. *Yes I know they pretty much are already, but you know what I mean. I actually agree with the general idea behind this proposal. There should be some purpose behind a war dec besides "Lulz". If you just want to watch ships explode, go to low sec. I would also agree with the idea of implementing a character level war dec flag that follows a character leaving a war decced corp for a period of 7 days or until the war officially ends, whichever is shorter. --Vel Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats.
blod miner	Posted - 2010.02.22 22:49:00 - [73] Originally by: TeaDaze Not everyone who wardecs empire corps is a mental basket case, some players actually like to PVP in a PVP game interesting answer, so u see EVE has a PVP game and it isnt only that. The way wardec works pvp players get what they want but rest is forced to it. Eve in my opinion should be more democratic so adding a few conditions to wardec would balance the question
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.02.22 22:52:00 - [74] Originally by: blod miner Originally by: TeaDaze Not everyone who wardecs empire corps is a mental basket case, some players actually like to PVP in a PVP game interesting answer, so u see EVE has a PVP game and it isnt only that. The way wardec works pvp players get what they want but rest is forced to it. Eve in my opinion should be more democratic so adding a few conditions to wardec would balance the question I don't understand.
blod miner	Posted - 2010.02.22 22:59:00 - [75] Edited by: blod miner on 22/02/2010 23:01:56 some players only see EVE has a pvp game but others see more than that and those who dont see it only has a pvp game are forced 2 play a pvp.
James Tritanius	Posted - 2010.02.22 23:04:00 - [76] Originally by: blod miner Edited by: blod miner on 22/02/2010 23:01:56 some players only see EVE has a pvp game but others see more than that and those who dont see it only has a pvp game are forced 2 play a pvp. Thanks for clearing that up a little. You can play EVE as PvE game. You just have to keep your head low and stay in an NPC corp.
Slimy Worm Vivicide Vivisection.	Posted - 2010.02.23 01:04:00 - [77] Originally by: blod miner Edited by: blod miner on 22/02/2010 19:37:58 im suporting this because wardec is a broke way 2 harass new players. I liked 2 know how many wardec are made between old and established corp (perct.) Originally by: De'Veldrin War is a non-consensual activity. I doubt very much that the Germans (yes I went there) sent a nicely worded note to Paris asking, if it wouldn't be too awful much bother, if the French would mind terribly if they invaded and conquered their country. I'm sure the French fell all over themselves saying "Oh by all means help yourself." perfect there but they fought 4 a territory or for resources, so why not the wardec only valid in a certain constelation or solar system or region leaving the rest of the space safe making possible 2 new corp 2 avoid the fight. think that like switzerland. another way 2 balance the thing was extending the period prior the war start to 48 hours and adding the option do get a corp that gonna fight that war 4 u. EX: you recieve a wardec from a corp. u during the waiting period can talk 2 varios merc corp and if they accept it they gonna become flagged in your place. i dont know if is possible 2 receive varios wardec but if it is limiting to one. this are some ideas 2 keep the wardec but i think this will balance it more. Having an option to wardec only to a constellation/region might not be a bad idea since it would allow, say, a small mining corp to fight the rival that keeps mining in the same belts as them without paying the 50 mil wardec fee. Or it would let a griefer corp dec only in the Jita area.
Tason Hyena Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.23 01:10:00 - [78] I agree very much with Malcanis's counter-proposal.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2010.02.23 01:34:00 - [79] Originally by: Malcanis There's no arguing that the wardec system needs reforming, but making wardecs optional* isn't the way forward. A more formal system with declared grievances, declared objectives and declared peace conditions would be better. And these should apply to both parties. If the wardeccing corp declares a peace condition of "disband corp", then it is under the same ban itself. The war continues until one corp disbands. That would add an element of risk and increase the value of mercs, no? Ditto for a peace condition of "pay 1 billion ISK". If the deccing corp wants to impose this peace condition, it should have to put up a bond for that amount, which they forfeit if they let the war lapse. But with more stringent conditions on the deccing corp, should also come more stringent conditions on the decced. eg: wardec follows characters leaving either corp for 24 hours, no-one in corp can create a new corp for the duration of the war, etc etc. The tactic of cycling through corps to evade a dec is just as cheap as the tactic of deccing noob corps. *Yes I know they pretty much are already, but you know what I mean. This makes some sense.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.02.23 03:09:00 - [80] Originally by: Sokratesz Short answer: No. Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. ... enjoying an iceland trip off of your sub money atm ... Also drake, being csm doesn¦t prevent me from laughing at stupid ideas. ... This is totally why I voted for Sok. And I'll do it next time too. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire

TeaDaze	Posted - 2010.02.23 05:19:00 - [81] Originally by: James Tritanius Originally by: blod miner Edited by: blod miner on 22/02/2010 23:01:56 some players only see EVE has a pvp game but others see more than that and those who dont see it only has a pvp game are forced 2 play a pvp. Thanks for clearing that up a little. You can play EVE as PvE game. You just have to keep your head low and stay in an NPC corp. I disagree, because there is PVP at every level in Eve. Ok so shooting rats, missions or mining are PVE to a point but as soon as you need to sell your loot you are competing against other players! Do not simply treat the term PVP as "Shooting other players in the face". Wardecing does allow (for example) an industrial corp to attack their market competitors directly (or via mercs). It also allows people to disrupt supply chains of larger entities (though much is done via NPC corp alts anyway). I felt I had to comment because of the suggestion that wardecs should be mutual because "all wardeccing against industrial corps is due to people with RL problems" which is something I find ridiculous
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.02.23 06:48:00 - [82] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 23/02/2010 06:50:36 I'm sorry... but I am really getting sick and tired of hearing "Wardecs allow industrialists to attack competitors" as an excuse or an valid argument. That is utter bull**** and you know it. Since when has an industrialist corporation ever war-dec'd? In case you people forgot... you make nothing in PVP'ing... there is no profit... ergo... 99% of the indies in high sec won't even bother... they just go somewhere else or hire a merc to deal with the problem. So stop coming up with excuses and assumptions and start dealing in facts. Fact - War-decs are DOMINATED by greifers who seek to PVP soft targets. Fact - War-decs are DOMINATED by corporations seeking to disrupt logistics in 0.0 Now maybe I'm just a guy in a cave but I have never heard of an indy corp war-dec'ing an another for indy reasons. POS take down? Doesn't qualify... and most hire a merc to handle that. 99% of indy corps are always on the receiving end from some pvp corporation or some such. Its both hilarious and totally stupid to see people tell me and everyone else "oh but it allows ______ to do this to an another corp" Wake up... just come out and say it. Stop lying to yourselves. You'll live longer. And let me emphasize that while I have an issue with the excuse that I just blew away... it is in no way a valid argument for me to say war-decs should be nerfed... or buffed for that matter. Just don't put the blame or reasoning in the equation that wardecs are useful in THAT context. Useful or not... they aren't using it... because there's no point to it. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.02.23 07:05:00 - [83] Um, why would an industrial corp dec anyone? That would be pretty stupid and put their assets at risk for no reason. They pay mercenaries to do the wardeccing. But yeah anyway, well done for working out that most rational people prefer to start fights when they're likely to win... ...u mad, bro?
Zonefire	Posted - 2010.02.23 19:05:00 - [84] There is an idea, corps would pay for the ability to wardec per system. Each system would cost more then the previous one. This would make wars have a point in high sec to control recources yet make it hard for griefers. Costs could be set that it would be impractical to control more then a handful of high sec. Only downside is major trade hubs would be constant war systems. (I mean it not like people ever war there.)
Tason Hyena Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.24 00:05:00 - [85] Originally by: Malcanis Um, why would an industrial corp dec anyone? That would be pretty stupid and put their assets at risk for no reason. They pay mercenaries to do the wardeccing. But yeah anyway, well done for working out that most rational people prefer to start fights when they're likely to win... ...u mad, bro? No I think his point is that the industrial corp argument is used to justify the need for hi-sec wardecs, and it really isn't something that happens. So he's annoyed when it is used as a counter-argument.
Glonn Amarr Vivicide Vivisection.	Posted - 2010.02.24 00:37:00 - [86] So the freedom to avoid a war by 'chickening out' makes this game great? No it does not. This would be a HORRIBLE idea. How about we make it so you can't pvp someone unless they lock you back and push the fire button!? In real life I declare war on you, aw you don't want war. I'm sorry we don't have war. The brutal truth is war is hell.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.	Posted - 2010.02.24 02:30:00 - [87] Originally by: Tason Hyena Originally by: Malcanis Um, why would an industrial corp dec anyone? That would be pretty stupid and put their assets at risk for no reason. They pay mercenaries to do the wardeccing. But yeah anyway, well done for working out that most rational people prefer to start fights when they're likely to win... ...u mad, bro? No I think his point is that the industrial corp argument is used to justify the need for hi-sec wardecs, and it really isn't something that happens. So he's annoyed when it is used as a counter-argument. Remind me to buy you a drink when WIS comes out. o7 ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
343guilty1 Gallente Strategic Insanity	Posted - 2010.02.24 06:11:00 - [88] Oh... My... *GAWD* just f-ing surrender the damn war -.- this thread has gone on too long and is not going to go through, so can it be dropped already please? cheezus....
Arcturus Raz	Posted - 2010.02.24 09:05:00 - [89] Just make war-decs more expensive. That will filter those corps that have legit reasons from pansy pvp corps that are to chicken to fight in low-sec. Triple war-dec fees and make the costs increase exponentially after the first week.
Doctor Mabuse	Posted - 2010.02.24 13:00:00 - [90] I have a sneaking suspicion that to take part in the Tyrannis land grab, players will need to be in a player corp. As it is intended that planetry interaction has a low barrier to entry I forsee lots of new shiny corps, all ready to be decced ------------------------------------ Who's trip-trapping on my bridge?



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