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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
gwabakk
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Posted - 2010.02.19 19:45:00 -
[1]
Eve online is a great MMO game because it allows the players freedom of choice of what careers they want to explore. The game had a very fine balance indeed between the interests of, say, the casual miner and the hardcore combat pilots. Each and everyone was allowed its fair amount of time and space in the game to persue whatever they choose to do.
This has changed with the event or wardeccing.
Wardeccing, whatever the fair intentions where when introduced, has now become a means to score easy kills and/or easy money in high-sec at the cost of the peacefull and innocent. A combat corp can start a war at very little cost against a miner corp, which of course is not equipped to defend itself. Some people argue that miner/manufacturing corp should prepare to defend themselves but you cannot possibly expect that players that have devoted all their time and resources to mining/manufacturing to be a match to a bunch of players who have devoted all their time and resources to combat.
Furthermore, and at least as important, those miner did not come to eve to do combat, they chose a different path, because that is what they wanted, and that is what eve promised to be a valid paht when they started out. Now, with wardeccing, they are forced into a path they did not choose, and they do not whish to follow.
High-sec isn't called high-sec for nothing, but what wardeccing has effectively done is making piracy legal in high-sec. My corp, less than a month old, has already been wardecced three times, every time without a proper reason. Wardeccing has given combat corps that do not want/dare to engage their equals the perfect to tool to just attack the defenseless instead, getting easy kills perfectly legal, and all that in high-sec. That can hardly have been the intention of the designers of this game feature. Wardeccing is disabling the free choice of career paths in eve (freedom that the game was designed for), and forcing miners to quit player corps and join NPC corps instead (which eve was not designed for).
I do not propose to get rid of wardeccing, but restore the high-sec balance. When a wardec is mutual by both corps, no problem, go ahaed and fight it out. And low-sec being low-sec you should always expect being attacked. But when the wardec is not mutual, high-sec should still remain a save place, and any encounters should be concorded by the normal rules.
I know this will also disable to opportunity to start wars in high-sec even if there is a valid reason, but then again, it would also be ridicolous if you could just give the local police (Concord) some money and then can go beat them neighbours up without consequense whatsoever. High-sec is high-sec and should be properly guarded.
Bottom line: wardeccing, whatever its fair intentions were, has now become an abuse at the cost of those who justifiably have choosen a non-combat career in eve. And that abuse will have to stop. Engaging others in high-sec should always be concorded, even when the corps are at war (unless the wardec is mutual)
Regards.
Gwabakk
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Xtover
Suicide Kings
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Posted - 2010.02.19 20:07:00 -
[2]
No.
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.02.19 20:08:00 -
[3]
I cannot support this motion as in eve PvP is not achoise in this case, you are getting attacked, and you need to defend yourself. so no.
Quote: High-sec isn't called high-sec for nothing, but what wardeccing has effectively done is making piracy legal in high-sec. My corp, less than a month old, has already been wardecced three times,
I can see where you are coming from, and that might be an issue indeed, i would not mind something like increasing wardec fees a little.
Quote: . But when the wardec is not mutual, high-sec should still remain a save place
So what happens if some bastard smacktalks in local where we live eevry day, and keeps bumping our miners? Do i need to wait for him to mutualy declare war on me to teach him manners? that does not exactly work.
I agree that high-sec war-decs do need to be looked at. They must be a more serious decision then they are not, and have more consequences then someone having to stay docked up for a while untill the others get bored. Station games, nutral Rr alts, and other **** like that makes them lame. It's used for griefing 80% of the time, where 19 percent is where the attacker fails, and 1% when it is actually a proper fight. So, yes, it might need to be looked at, but not this way. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG |
Stil Harkonnen
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Posted - 2010.02.19 20:09:00 -
[4]
pvp oriented game.
It is already easy enough to avoid war decs.
No.
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Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.02.19 20:20:00 -
[5]
Welcome to EVE. I see that you have located the forums! Congratulations!
Now that you are here you can take some of the money that you made and use it to pay people to kill other people for you! Exciting isn't it!
For more information on how to defend yourself without a gun go to:
Crime and Punishment Warn others of the latest scam, hire a mercenary to seek revenge or brag about your kills. This is the place to discuss the criminal elements of EVE.
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gwabakk
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Posted - 2010.02.19 20:28:00 -
[6]
So tell me, how can a corp avoid being wardecced? Only way is to leave corp and become a NPC corp member. A player corp cannot prevent being wardecced.
And as for the PVP argument: PVP in eve is not just about shooting each other. Eve is much more than that. Eve is not a combat game, combat is just one of the many game features. My point is that wardeccing is becoming a blockade of all those other features
Gwabakk
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Xtover
Suicide Kings
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Posted - 2010.02.19 20:33:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Xtover on 19/02/2010 20:34:13
Originally by: gwabakk So tell me, how can a corp avoid being wardecced? Only way is to leave corp and become a NPC corp member. A player corp cannot prevent being wardecced.
And as for the PVP argument: PVP in eve is not just about shooting each other. Eve is much more than that. Eve is not a combat game, combat is just one of the many game features. My point is that wardeccing is becoming a blockade of all those other features
Gwabakk
you do understand that EVE stands for everyone vs everyone, right?
never being truely safe is what eve is. it's why it stands alone.
nonconsentual pvp combat is something that CCP holds dear.
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Sdlonyer
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Posted - 2010.02.19 20:54:00 -
[8]
Quote: Wardeccing, whatever the fair intentions where when introduced, has now become a means to score easy kills and/or easy money in high-sec at the cost of the peacefull and innocent.
Stop being peaceful Be peaceful elsewhere Hire someone to not be peaceful in your place
If none of the above,
Join NPC corp to be wardec proof.
/topic
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Mr Ravenblade
University of Caille
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Posted - 2010.02.19 21:06:00 -
[9]
I cant support this petition on the grounds that it sounds like somebody who is still learning about what the game is about.
I suggest you look into hiring a mercenary corp if you have no other deference. - MRB |
Comodore John
Gallente KILRATHI INDUSTRIES Sang Do Oligarchic Democracy
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Posted - 2010.02.19 21:21:00 -
[10]
Join an alliance maybe?
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.02.19 21:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: gwabakk And as for the PVP argument: PVP in eve is not just about shooting each other. Eve is much more than that. Eve is not a combat game, combat is just one of the many game features. My point is that wardeccing is becoming a blockade of all those other features
Gwabakk
Wrong. You can certainly do everything in EVE with a war active as you can without a war active. You may have to be a minuscule bit more careful but having a war against you does not force you to stop what you are doing, dock up and log.
Starting wars with no reason or purpose against new players is a problem, but not to be solved by making wars useless and making high sec logistics near invulnerable.
Originally by: Jim Raynor EVE needs danger, EVE needs risks, EVE needs combat, even piracy, without these things, the game stagnates to a trivial game centering around bloating your wallet with no purpose. |
Jerid Verges
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Posted - 2010.02.19 22:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Xtover No.
Best answer.
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.02.19 23:09:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jerid Verges
Originally by: Xtover No.
Best answer.
I will elaborate.
No , learn how to defend yourself.
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Malen Nenokal
The Nightshift
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Posted - 2010.02.19 23:56:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Malen Nenokal on 19/02/2010 23:56:00 You're an industrial corp. Hire a mercenary corporation to counter wardec the attackers. You may not have PvP prowess, but as industrialists, you can fight with your ISK.
welcome to Eve btw.
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Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.02.20 00:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: gwabakk So tell me, how can a corp avoid being wardecced? Only way is to leave corp and become a NPC corp member. A player corp cannot prevent being wardecced.
And as for the PVP argument: PVP in eve is not just about shooting each other. Eve is much more than that. Eve is not a combat game, combat is just one of the many game features. My point is that wardeccing is becoming a blockade of all those other features
Gwabakk
There is no way to avoid being war decced 100% of the time. However, there are deterrents. First, you can hire mercs to counter dec your enemy. Second, you can join an alliance for security. Third, you can train up to use combat ships and fight back. Fourth, you can take a vacation from EVE and let the war dec reward the enemy in zero targets, zero fun, and some wasted ISK(if you know what you are doing on the market this is actually not that bad).
How you fight a war is up to you but you fight one everyday as soon as you log in.
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.02.20 02:06:00 -
[16]
I sympathize with the OP because I believe that there is something wrong when cowardly griefers -- and they are most definitely cowards or they'd be attacking someone of equal skill rather than shooting fish in a barrel by wardeccing newbs and industrialists -- can force people to not play the game that they are paying REAL WORLD MONEY for.
I would like to have the ability to take revenge by being able to file some kind of mining-dec that would allow industrial players to declare a state of operations where members of the decced corp could undock only in mining barges, exhumers, industrials, freighters, ... so as to deny them their preferred activities -- which they pay REAL WORLD MONEY to engage in -- in the same way that a wardec denies industrialists the ability to engage in our preferred activities.
As the OP gains more experience he/she will clearly see that the people who post most vehemently about how EVE is a PVP game are the ones who, rather than engaging in actual combat with equals, like to shoot fish in a barrel.
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Solorman
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Posted - 2010.02.20 02:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Malen Nenokal Edited by: Malen Nenokal on 19/02/2010 23:56:00 You're an industrial corp. Hire a mercenary corporation to counter wardec the attackers. You may not have PvP prowess, but as industrialists, you can fight with your ISK.
Corp is less then 3 weeks old and you expect people to have tons of money to throw away. Also, as an mining corp if they cant mine they cant get money. So thats a great idea of paying merc corps.
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Zarofdium
Caldari Imperial Syndicate Forces Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.02.20 04:54:00 -
[18]
I can only see two reasons that would keep you from joining a 0.0 or lowsec alliance or corp (which would discourage people- although not prevent them from war'decing you).
1.) You only want to mine.
2.) You want to stay in safe- high sec.
Solution:
Join an NPC Corp. The only downside- You cannot have your own POS. But you can mine, without any more tax than if you were in your own corporation.
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Kindra Blades
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.02.20 04:57:00 -
[19]
War deccing is part of eve. Would be pointless to war dec someone in 0.0 or low sec. Eve is a cut throat style game. Paying ISK for concord to look the other way is just one of those risks.
If your corp is only 3 weeks old and you get war decced, all you have to do is either surrender and find a corp that can back you (there are way too many corps now anyway), or you can stay docked and bore them to death.
/not supported
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.02.20 05:33:00 -
[20]
Originally by: gwabakk So tell me, how can a corp avoid being wardecced? Only way is to leave corp and become a NPC corp member. A player corp cannot prevent being wardecced.
Yes, that's how Eve works. Glad we're on the same page here.
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Irongut
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.02.20 07:41:00 -
[21]
The whole point of a war dec is to allow you to shoot people in high sec. So no. --
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Catrina Denaries
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.20 10:09:00 -
[22]
War declarations in EVE are Darwin's Law applied. Got deced? Man up and defend your corporation. If you can't, then you didn't deserve the corp to begin with. ----- The yarr is strong with this one. |
Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.02.20 10:44:00 -
[23]
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one? |
gwabakk
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Posted - 2010.02.20 12:43:00 -
[24]
Allow me to stress again my basic argument: there are people in eve who prefer to do combat, and there are those who prefer to do other things. Both groups have every and equal rights to play eve the way they like to play it. But their interest conflict sometimes, and a lot of eve game mechanics is about balancing those interests. That is why we have high-sec, low-sec, null-sec, concord et all. Eve has done a great job in that, but wardeccing is now upsetting the fine balance to much in favour of those who want to shoot others.
And that is why the wardeccing mechanics needs changing, to bing back the balance.
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Kruxxas
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Posted - 2010.02.20 14:17:00 -
[25]
mimimimimimi
No!
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343guilty1
Gallente Strategic Insanity
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Posted - 2010.02.20 16:14:00 -
[26]
makes war irrelevant, because it doesn't matter in who you attack in low/null sec >_> besides, this is where yet ANOTHER career comes up, Merc corps =) hire one with all the ore you mined ;)
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.02.20 16:24:00 -
[27]
Speaking as a miner/industrialist no.
Either learn how to avoid people who want to shoot you, or learn to shoot back effectively. --Vel
Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats. |
Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.02.20 16:53:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Sokratesz Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Best reply so far and from CSM too.
Yeah, keep posting in this thread, I see it going far...
Not really. ------------
+15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG |
Shivani
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Posted - 2010.02.20 16:58:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Shivani on 20/02/2010 16:58:11
Originally by: Sokratesz Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
And you are who?
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343guilty1
Gallente Strategic Insanity
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Posted - 2010.02.20 17:00:00 -
[30]
Originally by: gwabakk Allow me to stress again my basic argument: there are people in eve who prefer to do combat, and there are those who prefer to do other things. Both groups have every and equal rights to play eve the way they like to play it. But their interest conflict sometimes, and a lot of eve game mechanics is about balancing those interests. That is why we have high-sec, low-sec, null-sec, concord et all. Eve has done a great job in that, but wardeccing is now upsetting the fine balance to much in favour of those who want to shoot others.
And that is why the wardeccing mechanics needs changing, to bing back the balance.
I'd like to point out contrary to popular belief, High sec, even with concord, in a 1.0 sec system, is in fact, NOT safe.... simple as that, to prove this point, someone go suicide gank him to show that you don't even need war to be killed in high sec....
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Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.02.20 17:14:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Zonefire on 20/02/2010 17:14:05 Now it just seems that people who don't support this are the people who enjoy war deccing indy corps. The high sec pirate corps are just the ones that fail at low sec/null sec pvp and have to get their anger out on people who can't fight back.
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343guilty1
Gallente Strategic Insanity
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Posted - 2010.02.20 17:22:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Zonefire Edited by: Zonefire on 20/02/2010 17:14:05 Now it just seems that people who don't support this are the people who enjoy war deccing indy corps. The high sec pirate corps are just the ones that fail at low sec/null sec pvp and have to get their anger out on people who can't fight back.
in most cases, yes, but what about an a-hole corp who keeps can flipping you indy guys in our corp? what then, they just sit there and steal your ores? or what if you just plain out right don't like them cuz they talk smack? OR you got beef with em for a legit reason?
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.20 17:47:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Solorman
Corp is less then 3 weeks old and you expect people to have tons of money to throw away. Also, as an mining corp if they cant mine they cant get money. So thats a great idea of paying merc corps.
Join an established alliance or corp. Or just stay docked for a while. _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.02.20 18:05:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Shivani Edited by: Shivani on 20/02/2010 16:58:11
Originally by: Sokratesz Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
And you are who?
enjoying an iceland trip off of your sub money atm
Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one? |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.02.20 18:25:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/02/2010 18:27:30
Originally by: Sokratesz Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Once again we see the maturity and actual age of our CSM at work. Great job.
*golf claps*
Now as to the OP.
First off let me appluad you for not going emo-rage-rant on your post... at least you where decent enough to be eloquent.
Secondly... not going to happen.
I've been playing for about 2 years...if not more... and if there's one thing I've learned... war-dec'ing... as stupid and absolutely ridiculous as it is... mechanics wise... is not something that needs to be eliminated from the game.
There are some very clear points I've learned from this war-dec'ing system.
1: 80 to 99% of the war-dec's I've encountered are all done for the expressed purpose of greifing. Not all are like that... there are some who target you to make an effort to nerf your logistics pipeline... such as 0.0 alliances or whs operations... yet they never really follow you.. they just station camp there asses off... pathetic.
2: Said greifers are typically cowards... they refuse to leave the safety of high sec and as soon as you step out side into low-sec or WHS... they generally do not follow as they are now subject to getting shot at. This means they are geared to shoot down carebears and not other PVP'ers.
3: War-decs only end when there killboard eff. goes down or they get bored. As such its never a matter of ISK... and they tend to cheat the system by ending the war-dec and starting it up again to lower the rates when possible. War-decs as such are very cheap and cost literally nothing. Only gets expensive if they are stacked (multiple war-decs on target) or its an alliance. And typically they won't go after an alliance unless its an soft target.
4: War-decs as such do not serve any purpose other than to deal out easy kills and make it an overused excuse to say its PVP game only and that's that. Funny enough the excuse to tell them to go NPC doesn't work when you have suicide ganking at an all time high... imagine that.
So yeah.... War-dec is broken... its frakked up... its abused... exploited... don't even get me started.
So why do I not support this?
Because there are no other methods in taking action against harassment.
So like it or not... its here to stay.
You'll love this tho.
IMHO... there is absolutely no reason what so ever to be a corporaiton in high sec space. Seriously... its stupid.
Unless your PVP'ing.... manufactureing (and odds are most are solo corps) or strong enough/intimdating enough to keep out of trouble... you have no business being in a corporaiton or being a member of one if your going to be a carebear.
You make just as much money (more in many cases) and do better in NPC.
Teams can exsist outside of a corporation... a corporaiton is nothing more than a formality with some minor advantages...
With mailing-lists... chat rooms... cheap hosting... you can get one put together with minimal effort.
So sorry mate... you should join an alliance that's strong enough to deal with it... or move to 0.0 space.
It doesn't remove the risk... but the rewards make up for it if your able to hold your own out here.
If I end up going to high sec... I will not be in a corporation of any kind... that I can assure you. (unless I decide to join one that's strong enough to deal with the problem)
EVE is not PVE online or PVP online... its EVE Online.
Don't let anyone tell you differently.
So in conclusion... not supporting.
========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Shivani
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Posted - 2010.02.20 20:40:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Shivani on 20/02/2010 20:41:20
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Shivani Edited by: Shivani on 20/02/2010 16:58:11
Originally by: Sokratesz Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
And you are who?
enjoying an iceland trip off of your sub money atm
Dunno, how CCP is hiring their CSMs, but obviously they anre't aware of you no showing any kind of respect for the paying customer.
Luckily, you are only a CSM not a DEV, so it is not your call what happens and what doesn't happen.
I'd advice CCP to do some quality selection ammong their CSMs.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.20 21:00:00 -
[37]
Originally by: gwabakk Eve online is a great MMO game because it allows the players freedom of choice of what careers they want to explore. The game had a very fine balance indeed between the interests of, say, the casual miner and the hardcore combat pilots. Each and everyone was allowed its fair amount of time and space in the game to persue whatever they choose to do.
This has changed with the event or wardeccing.
Wardeccing, whatever the fair intentions where when introduced, has now become a means to score easy kills and/or easy money in high-sec at the cost of the peacefull and innocent. A combat corp can start a war at very little cost against a miner corp, which of course is not equipped to defend itself. Some people argue that miner/manufacturing corp should prepare to defend themselves but you cannot possibly expect that players that have devoted all their time and resources to mining/manufacturing to be a match to a bunch of players who have devoted all their time and resources to combat.
Furthermore, and at least as important, those miner did not come to eve to do combat, they chose a different path, because that is what they wanted, and that is what eve promised to be a valid paht when they started out. Now, with wardeccing, they are forced into a path they did not choose, and they do not whish to follow.
High-sec isn't called high-sec for nothing, but what wardeccing has effectively done is making piracy legal in high-sec. My corp, less than a month old, has already been wardecced three times, every time without a proper reason. Wardeccing has given combat corps that do not want/dare to engage their equals the perfect to tool to just attack the defenseless instead, getting easy kills perfectly legal, and all that in high-sec. That can hardly have been the intention of the designers of this game feature. Wardeccing is disabling the free choice of career paths in eve (freedom that the game was designed for), and forcing miners to quit player corps and join NPC corps instead (which eve was not designed for).
I do not propose to get rid of wardeccing, but restore the high-sec balance. When a wardec is mutual by both corps, no problem, go ahaed and fight it out. And low-sec being low-sec you should always expect being attacked. But when the wardec is not mutual, high-sec should still remain a save place, and any encounters should be concorded by the normal rules.
I know this will also disable to opportunity to start wars in high-sec even if there is a valid reason, but then again, it would also be ridicolous if you could just give the local police (Concord) some money and then can go beat them neighbours up without consequense whatsoever. High-sec is high-sec and should be properly guarded.
Bottom line: wardeccing, whatever its fair intentions were, has now become an abuse at the cost of those who justifiably have choosen a non-combat career in eve. And that abuse will have to stop. Engaging others in high-sec should always be concorded, even when the corps are at war (unless the wardec is mutual)
Regards.
Gwabakk
I will support your proposal if you amend it so that I can choose buy the stuff you sell at a price I think is fair as long as I dont make any stuff myself. You see it is not my playstyle to spend all my time making ISK, and I dont see why you greedy miners and manufacturers should be allowed to grief me by gouging my wallet, forcing me to buy T2 ships and modules at far above the price I want to pay.
Sound fair?
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.02.20 21:25:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Shivani Edited by: Shivani on 20/02/2010 20:41:20
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Shivani Edited by: Shivani on 20/02/2010 16:58:11
Originally by: Sokratesz Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
And you are who?
enjoying an iceland trip off of your sub money atm
Dunno, how CCP is hiring their CSMs, but obviously they anre't aware of you no showing any kind of respect for the paying customer.
Luckily, you are only a CSM not a DEV, so it is not your call what happens and what doesn't happen.
I'd advice CCP to do some quality selection ammong their CSMs.
CSM are elected by the players... CCP doesn't do much else beyond that.
Malcanis - U Mad? ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.02.20 21:33:00 -
[39]
Originally by: 343guilty1
Originally by: Zonefire Edited by: Zonefire on 20/02/2010 17:14:05 Now it just seems that people who don't support this are the people who enjoy war deccing indy corps. The high sec pirate corps are just the ones that fail at low sec/null sec pvp and have to get their anger out on people who can't fight back.
in most cases, yes, but what about an a-hole corp who keeps can flipping you indy guys in our corp? what then, they just sit there and steal your ores? or what if you just plain out right don't like them cuz they talk smack? OR you got beef with em for a legit reason?
Well eve is rated for people to be at least 13 years old. If you can't handle a little smack talk in local then maybe you need to mature a little. Many people I know just laugh off smack talk and try not to antagonize it. As for constant can flipping I can see that being a legit reason for a war dec, but not random can flipping one in awhile.
What I think would be a good thing would be that each corp has to have a representative after a certain time period when the war is declared. Then both sides would have to explain why or why not they should be able to have a war. The third party would be representing concord(dev). This person would listen to both sides and decide if there is cause for war in high sec.
But of course, EVE devs are lazy and probably wouldn't do this because then they would have to do actual work.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.02.20 22:43:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Shivani
Luckily, you are only a CSM not a DEV, so it is not your call what happens and what doesn't happen.
I'd advice CCP to do some quality selection ammong their CSMs.
You would be sooo dissapointed if you knew what happened today. Also drake, being csm doesn¦t prevent me from laughing at stupid ideas.
Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one? |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.20 22:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Malcanis - U Mad?
Mad because I demonstrated what a stupid proposal this was?
Oh yeah, flaming livid fury. I wept. I smashed my favourite chair. I tore my clothes and smeared ashes over my face. I have sworn a bloody oath of vengeance: I will not spare any man or woman or child, be they innocent or guilty, who stands between me and the death of the OP.
I will spit on his grave.
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Shivani
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Posted - 2010.02.21 00:04:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Sokratesz You would be sooo dissapointed if you knew what happened today. Also drake, being csm doesn¦t prevent me from laughing at stupid ideas.
I don't know how you want to tell whether i would be disappointed about some toony boony super secret going on or not. However i *Do* know, that CCP should rework their CSM system. And i *do* know that you are not a CCP related dev.
However, whether something is a stupid idea or not is not your call to judge. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, at least in the free world. I surely hope you are living in the free world, don't you? Your opinion regarding a certain topic might differ, but that does not make your opinion better or "more true". I think, we understand, hm???
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.02.21 00:56:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Shivani
Luckily, you are only a CSM not a DEV, so it is not your call what happens and what doesn't happen.
I'd advice CCP to do some quality selection ammong their CSMs.
You would be sooo dissapointed if you knew what happened today. Also drake, being csm doesn¦t prevent me from laughing at stupid ideas.
Didn't say you couldn't... or could.
Just saying... nice image to project to the people...
Not very bright. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.02.21 01:20:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Malcanis - U Mad?
Mad because I demonstrated what a stupid proposal this was?
Oh yeah, flaming livid fury. I wept. I smashed my favourite chair. I tore my clothes and smeared ashes over my face. I have sworn a bloody oath of vengeance: I will not spare any man or woman or child, be they innocent or guilty, who stands between me and the death of the OP.
I will spit on his grave.
I'll sell you some ammo - I'm sure we can come to an agreement on the price. --Vel
Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats. |
I SoStoned
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.21 01:34:00 -
[45]
While I am agreed that the entire wardeclaration system needs a revamp, I am solidly against removing them to 'mutual only' status.
What is needed is a way for the declaring corp to put 'demands' into the declaration clause that the declared party can choose to meet, or counter. Then they can duke it out just as they do now. Once the demands are met, however, the war should end in a very short time (30 mins).
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.02.21 02:11:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Zonefire Edited by: Zonefire on 20/02/2010 17:14:05 Now it just seems that people who don't support this are the people who enjoy war deccing indy corps. The high sec pirate corps are just the ones that fail at low sec/null sec pvp and have to get their anger out on people who can't fight back.
Um not really. I'm in a corp that doesn't do this and I don't support this silly idea. Reason being: It's a silly idea.
Although if I was in a corp that did wardec Indy corps I would still have to say I don't support this idea. Again though, its simply because it's a bad one. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.02.21 09:45:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Shivani
However, whether something is a stupid idea or not is not your call to judge. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, at least in the free world. I surely hope you are living in the free world, don't you? Your opinion regarding a certain topic might differ, but that does not make your opinion better or "more true". I think, we understand, hm???
point on the doll where the wardec touched you
Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.21 10:06:00 -
[48]
The simplest way to stop weak helpless newbie corps being griefed by wardecs is to stop there being so many weak helpless newbie corps.
People complain about being "griefed". The real griefers are the ones who trick new players in to joining weak, useless corps that cannot possibly protect them.
You create a corp, then you raise a flag and declare you're ready to play with the big boys. If you're not ready to do that, you're not ready to create a corp.
Increase the corp creation fee to 100M ISK and change the skill requirement to create one to Corporation Management 5. Problem is 90% solved overnight. Running a corp is not a newbie activity in EVE (or in RL)
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Catrina Denaries
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.21 11:46:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Catrina Denaries on 21/02/2010 11:48:30
Originally by: Zonefire Edited by: Zonefire on 20/02/2010 17:14:05 Now it just seems that people who don't support this are the people who enjoy war deccing indy corps. The high sec pirate corps are just the ones that fail at low sec/null sec pvp and have to get their anger out on people who can't fight back.
Look up my kills anywhere and I dare you to say that again. Originally by: Shivani
Luckily, you are only a CSM not a DEV, so it is not your call what happens and what doesn't happen.
I'd advice CCP to do some quality selection ammong their CSMs.
You are aware CSM are democratically selected by the players without CCP interference, right? ----- The yarr is strong with this one. |
Rvlxnx
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Posted - 2010.02.21 11:50:00 -
[50]
i believe you need an office rented in order to be wardec'd ,.. dont you? .. im unsure of this,.. or can they click your corp banner and select "go to war" or something of that nature? if not then dont rent an office, after all an office is not really needed, really it isn't. but having one just makes things a bit easier for you and your corpies ummm without of course the war dec thing. its just easier to get on a "good" side with some mercs (ISK talks and dead pilots dont fly for a few;.. depending on how long you want them to "pay")
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Catrina Denaries
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.21 12:46:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Rvlxnx i believe you need an office rented in order to be wardec'd ,.. dont you? .. im unsure of this,.. or can they click your corp banner and select "go to war" or something of that nature? if not then dont rent an office, after all an office is not really needed, really it isn't. but having one just makes things a bit easier for you and your corpies ummm without of course the war dec thing. its just easier to get on a "good" side with some mercs (ISK talks and dead pilots dont fly for a few;.. depending on how long you want them to "pay")
...the amount of people...
*sigh* In order to wardec someone you open up a vote, do a search for the corpname, and hit apply. Done. There's no need for offices. ----- The yarr is strong with this one. |
Rvlxnx
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Posted - 2010.02.21 13:01:00 -
[52]
Ahhh Thank You for Enlightening me.
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Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.02.21 17:45:00 -
[53]
*sigh* In order to wardec someone you open up a vote, do a search for the corpname, and hit apply. Done. There's no need for offices.
That is why war needs to be changed, it is to easy to declare war on smaller corps just to get free kills. Now some people say you shouldn't form a corp that can't defend itself. In other words they say they do not want any new corps forming, Since most new corps, unless made by people who started playing early on, are newer people. People just make up excuses why its good to have war so they can take advantage of it. It seems like wars are also to prevent newer people from experiencing the better parts of eve, even in high sec.
Now people will continue to say that war is needed but to be honest, less then 1% of wars is actually needed. So why not just make it harder to make a war. Having a third party representing concord to determine if the war is just.
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Alekseyev Karrde
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Posted - 2010.02.21 17:51:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Shivani
However, whether something is a stupid idea or not is not your call to judge. .... It's a pain in the ass for a 2 week old corp to get war decced by some 12 year old griefer with real life problems.
Actually that's pretty much our ONLY job. We are a filter for bad ideas and to push the good ideas to CCP based on our judgement and experience. Your idea is terrible.
If you and your friends can¦t handle losing CONCORD protection against someone who still wets the bed it¦s not CSM¦s problem or CCP¦s problem. ---
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Xtover
Suicide Kings
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Posted - 2010.02.21 20:36:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Shivani Edited by: Shivani on 21/02/2010 00:15:14 Edited by: Shivani on 21/02/2010 00:14:51
I don't know how you want to tell whether i would be disappointed about some toony boony super secret going on or not. However i *Do* know, that CCP should rework their CSM system. And i *do* know that you are not a CCP related dev.
However, whether something is a stupid idea or not is not your call to judge. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, at least in the free world. I surely hope you are living in the free world, don't you? Your opinion regarding a certain topic might differ, but that does not make your opinion better or "more true". I think, we understand, hm???
It's a pain in the ass for a 2 week old corp to get war decced by some 12 year old griefer with real life problems.
No, it's not a pain in the ass. Harden up and fight back. Yes it's unfair but that's what eve is about. High second is safer, it is not meant to be safe.
If you want help with griefers hire mercs. Many are new and will work for dirt cheap.
As to your comments about sok, you might want to spend more time with the eve community to see what he's done for newer players (such as yourself), the advice he's given, the time he's put on the test server (including lending out supercaps) and the issues he's pushed forward through the CSM.
Because so far you're just embarrassing yourself.
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343guilty1
Gallente Strategic Insanity
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Posted - 2010.02.21 20:44:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Xtover
Originally by: Shivani Edited by: Shivani on 21/02/2010 00:15:14 Edited by: Shivani on 21/02/2010 00:14:51
I don't know how you want to tell whether i would be disappointed about some toony boony super secret going on or not. However i *Do* know, that CCP should rework their CSM system. And i *do* know that you are not a CCP related dev.
However, whether something is a stupid idea or not is not your call to judge. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, at least in the free world. I surely hope you are living in the free world, don't you? Your opinion regarding a certain topic might differ, but that does not make your opinion better or "more true". I think, we understand, hm???
It's a pain in the ass for a 2 week old corp to get war decced by some 12 year old griefer with real life problems.
No, it's not a pain in the ass. Harden up and fight back. Yes it's unfair but that's what eve is about. High second is safer, it is not meant to be safe.
If you want help with griefers hire mercs. Many are new and will work for dirt cheap.
As to your comments about sok, you might want to spend more time with the eve community to see what he's done for newer players (such as yourself), the advice he's given, the time he's put on the test server (including lending out supercaps) and the issues he's pushed forward through the CSM.
Because so far you're just embarrassing yourself.
Isn't that what i said already twice now? lol In any event i'd like to also point out, yes, CSM are voted, your fault for not casting votes -.- Third point, Life isn't fair, neither is virtual life >_> plain and simple My case point is this thread has become one big trolling fest, completely derailed from original intended point, has failed, to many accounts, and should probably be ended already, tired of it seeing the top of the list and getting attention for stupid ****ing contests, everyone grow up and just go kill each other in game -.-
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Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.02.21 21:50:00 -
[57]
The original purpose of this thread was to propose some way for new high sec, non-combat focus corps to avoid being griefed by people who have RL problems. But for some reason people keep drfting away from the topic.
Maybe besides this problem we can get something passed to ban people who go on rants comletely off topic.
A for an idea to help top USELESS wardecing, not the ons thatare legit, we should have concord(dev) be ahird party nd speak to a representative of both corps/alliances. Then they can explain why they want a war. And reasons can be checked to make sure its true.
PS: If can flipping was a concord offence, no pirates would have ships in high sec.
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Tamahra
Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch TriMark Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.21 21:57:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kruxxas mimimimimimi
No!
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Shivani
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Posted - 2010.02.22 11:31:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Shivani on 22/02/2010 11:33:02
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde We are a filter for bad ideas and to push the good ideas to CCP based on our judgement and experience. Your idea is terrible.
It's not *my* idea, i am only supporting the OP to a certain degree. I am not part or member of the OP's corp either. Learn 2 read.
Quote: If you and your friends can¦t handle losing CONCORD protection against someone who still wets the bed it¦s not CSM¦s problem or CCP¦s problem.
I have no problems with war deccing corps, as the OP's corp is not my corp. Learn 2 read. :) This eve-character is over 6 years in training. You can be sure, that i know how ot handle pirates.
Originally by: Xtover As to your comments about sok, you might want to spend more time with the eve community to see what he's done for newer players (such as yourself),
Because so far you're just embarrassing yourself.
Lolz, i don't know, who has been "embarrassing himself", as this player is *not* a new player. AGain:
Learn 2 read!
This player's toon has been a part of EVE since 2005. Oooooooppppps!
but you do know what? I detest cheap and emberrassing greifers taking on some newbs. thats why *I* support this idea.
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Alekseyev Karrde
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Posted - 2010.02.22 11:40:00 -
[60]
So your defense is that you are a player whose old character explains away his poor grammer, moderate literacy, bad spelling, horrible ideas, shady judgement, etc and believe this makes you and the OP less of an embarassment....how?
---
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Shivani
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Posted - 2010.02.22 11:47:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde So your defense is that you are a player whose old character explains away his poor grammer, moderate literacy, bad spelling, horrible ideas, shady judgement, etc and believe this makes you and the OP less of an embarassment....how?
how many languages do you speak? i am able to read and write in 6 languages, though not perfect.
we can as well talk in my native language, if you prefer that? might it be possible, that not all ppl in the world are native talkers? could that be? wow, could you imagine, that there are some other ppl in the world but enlish and americans? wow.... impressive.
nah that can't be.
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CCP Shadow
Caldari C C P
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Posted - 2010.02.22 14:46:00 -
[62]
Please stay on topic.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.02.22 16:06:00 -
[63]
Not supported.
I love picking on newbies who cannot fight back.
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Mielono
Caldari SWARTA
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Posted - 2010.02.22 17:22:00 -
[64]
Not supported, high sec wardecs allows a version of highsec piracy which tempers and controls new corporations. If a corp does not get wardecced in highsec it will never be able to prepare for its eventual decent into lowsec or null.
I hate to say it, this is a sandbox, the ability to wardec allows the formation of merc corps and pirate corps. I would not be against the limit of one week of warfare without the fight going mutual with a 24 hour cooldown before allowing the coorps to redeclare, this way even your highsec carebearish types can have a bit to resupply before the fighting starts back up as well as slowing down those just doing it for griefing instead of any monetary gain.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.02.22 17:37:00 -
[65]
War should not be a WoW-style duel.
Eve is not the land of teddy bears and pointy-eared elves.
Eve is not a fluffy cartoon land.
High sec is not meant to coddle, it is meant to offer minimal protection so new players can learn the game and older players can participate in some activities in relative peace. War is an instrument for other players to disrupt said activities, forcing players out of their bubble so they experience more of the game.
This is not to say that PVE players should be forced into PVP. War decs usually happen when players stay in the same place, doing the same thing, for an extended period of time. There are so many aspects of PVE that players would fail to experience if they were allowed to stay stuck in a rut. A war forces players to branch out and try new things.
"It is by opposition that we grow."
"Adversity precedes growth."
"If we're growing, we're always going to be out of our comfort zone."
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
"When you're finished changing, you're finished."
Fix Local |
Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.22 18:52:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Vaal Erit Starting wars with no reason or purpose against new players is a problem, but not to be solved by making wars useless and making high sec logistics near invulnerable.
Bah. High sec logistics are already invulnerable save for suicide ganking. It's called an alt in an NPC corp and it is slightly more common than farming in the North American prairies.
The OP doesn't have a good solution (as in wardecs being mutual) but there does need to be some way to fix the horribly awful current 'pay to grief' system. All it does is drive new players out of the game in frustration and that is simply not a good thing.
Not to mention that with all the station games, remote repping and Concord mix Empire wars are loopy anywhoo.
The whole thing needs a re-vamp, but mutuality only is not the way.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
blod miner
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Posted - 2010.02.22 19:38:00 -
[67]
Edited by: blod miner on 22/02/2010 19:37:58 im suporting this because wardec is a broke way 2 harass new players. I liked 2 know how many wardec are made between old and established corp (perct.)
Originally by: De'Veldrin War is a non-consensual activity. I doubt very much that the Germans (yes I went there) sent a nicely worded note to Paris asking, if it wouldn't be too awful much bother, if the French would mind terribly if they invaded and conquered their country. I'm sure the French fell all over themselves saying "Oh by all means help yourself."
perfect there but they fought 4 a territory or for resources, so why not the wardec only valid in a certain constelation or solar system or region leaving the rest of the space safe making possible 2 new corp 2 avoid the fight. think that like switzerland.
another way 2 balance the thing was extending the period prior the war start to 48 hours and adding the option do get a corp that gonna fight that war 4 u.
EX: you recieve a wardec from a corp. u during the waiting period can talk 2 varios merc corp and if they accept it they gonna become flagged in your place.
i dont know if is possible 2 receive varios wardec but if it is limiting to one.
this are some ideas 2 keep the wardec but i think this will balance it more.
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gwabakk
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Posted - 2010.02.22 20:26:00 -
[68]
Well i didn't figure that my original post would draw so much strong (and sometimes emotional) responses. It has been an interesting read so far. I'm glad that there has been much acknowledgement of the failings and abuse of the wardeccing mechanism, although support for my proposed solution has fallen short. From all that I have read I have concluded for myself too that it is indeed the wrong solution for the problem at hand.
On the other hand I have been a bit dissapointed about some posts that claimed that you should not complain and just fight, because they feel that is what eve is all about (or should be about). Like I argued before, eve is also about free choice of the path you want to go, and I frankly sometimes felt quite some disrespect and even despise towards the part of the eve community that chooses a mining/industrialism path. However, as the eve community as a whole depends very much on miner/industrialist, that is a bit short sighted to say the least. Please lets have respect for each other.
For the rest, I stick to the opinion that wardeccing rules should change, but I retract my original solution, as clearly that was not the right one. There were some interesting suggestions that I hope will be elaborated further and which might lead to a solution that is acceptable to everyone.
Thanks for all your contributions so far.
Gwabakk
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.22 21:19:00 -
[69]
There's no arguing that the wardec system needs reforming, but making wardecs optional* isn't the way forward.
A more formal system with declared grievances, declared objectives and declared peace conditions would be better.
And these should apply to both parties. If the wardeccing corp declares a peace condition of "disband corp", then it is under the same ban itself. The war continues until one corp disbands. That would add an element of risk and increase the value of mercs, no? Ditto for a peace condition of "pay 1 billion ISK". If the deccing corp wants to impose this peace condition, it should have to put up a bond for that amount, which they forfeit if they let the war lapse.
But with more stringent conditions on the deccing corp, should also come more stringent conditions on the decced. eg: wardec follows characters leaving either corp for 24 hours, no-one in corp can create a new corp for the duration of the war, etc etc. The tactic of cycling through corps to evade a dec is just as cheap as the tactic of deccing noob corps.
*Yes I know they pretty much are already, but you know what I mean.
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.02.22 21:31:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Zonefire The original purpose of this thread was to propose some way for new high sec, non-combat focus corps to avoid being griefed by people who have RL problems.
What about those people who use war decs against high sec corps but don't actually have RL problems?
Not everyone who wardecs empire corps is a mental basket case, some players actually like to PVP in a PVP game
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The PitBoss
Caldari Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.22 21:42:00 -
[71]
Edited by: The PitBoss on 22/02/2010 21:42:26
DAMN .... How'd I miss this one ... page 3
NO SUPPORT
Thank-You,
The Pitboss (Space between The & Pitboss)
Signatures by: Kalen Vox |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
|
Posted - 2010.02.22 22:20:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Malcanis There's no arguing that the wardec system needs reforming, but making wardecs optional* isn't the way forward.
A more formal system with declared grievances, declared objectives and declared peace conditions would be better.
And these should apply to both parties. If the wardeccing corp declares a peace condition of "disband corp", then it is under the same ban itself. The war continues until one corp disbands. That would add an element of risk and increase the value of mercs, no? Ditto for a peace condition of "pay 1 billion ISK". If the deccing corp wants to impose this peace condition, it should have to put up a bond for that amount, which they forfeit if they let the war lapse.
But with more stringent conditions on the deccing corp, should also come more stringent conditions on the decced. eg: wardec follows characters leaving either corp for 24 hours, no-one in corp can create a new corp for the duration of the war, etc etc. The tactic of cycling through corps to evade a dec is just as cheap as the tactic of deccing noob corps.
*Yes I know they pretty much are already, but you know what I mean.
I actually agree with the general idea behind this proposal. There should be some purpose behind a war dec besides "Lulz". If you just want to watch ships explode, go to low sec. I would also agree with the idea of implementing a character level war dec flag that follows a character leaving a war decced corp for a period of 7 days or until the war officially ends, whichever is shorter. --Vel
Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats. |
blod miner
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Posted - 2010.02.22 22:49:00 -
[73]
Originally by: TeaDaze Not everyone who wardecs empire corps is a mental basket case, some players actually like to PVP in a PVP game
interesting answer, so u see EVE has a PVP game and it isnt only that. The way wardec works pvp players get what they want but rest is forced to it. Eve in my opinion should be more democratic so adding a few conditions to wardec would balance the question
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.02.22 22:52:00 -
[74]
Originally by: blod miner
Originally by: TeaDaze Not everyone who wardecs empire corps is a mental basket case, some players actually like to PVP in a PVP game
interesting answer, so u see EVE has a PVP game and it isnt only that. The way wardec works pvp players get what they want but rest is forced to it. Eve in my opinion should be more democratic so adding a few conditions to wardec would balance the question
I don't understand.
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blod miner
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Posted - 2010.02.22 22:59:00 -
[75]
Edited by: blod miner on 22/02/2010 23:01:56 some players only see EVE has a pvp game but others see more than that and those who dont see it only has a pvp game are forced 2 play a pvp.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.02.22 23:04:00 -
[76]
Originally by: blod miner Edited by: blod miner on 22/02/2010 23:01:56 some players only see EVE has a pvp game but others see more than that and those who dont see it only has a pvp game are forced 2 play a pvp.
Thanks for clearing that up a little.
You can play EVE as PvE game. You just have to keep your head low and stay in an NPC corp.
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Slimy Worm
Vivicide Vivisection.
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Posted - 2010.02.23 01:04:00 -
[77]
Originally by: blod miner Edited by: blod miner on 22/02/2010 19:37:58 im suporting this because wardec is a broke way 2 harass new players. I liked 2 know how many wardec are made between old and established corp (perct.)
Originally by: De'Veldrin War is a non-consensual activity. I doubt very much that the Germans (yes I went there) sent a nicely worded note to Paris asking, if it wouldn't be too awful much bother, if the French would mind terribly if they invaded and conquered their country. I'm sure the French fell all over themselves saying "Oh by all means help yourself."
perfect there but they fought 4 a territory or for resources, so why not the wardec only valid in a certain constelation or solar system or region leaving the rest of the space safe making possible 2 new corp 2 avoid the fight. think that like switzerland.
another way 2 balance the thing was extending the period prior the war start to 48 hours and adding the option do get a corp that gonna fight that war 4 u.
EX: you recieve a wardec from a corp. u during the waiting period can talk 2 varios merc corp and if they accept it they gonna become flagged in your place.
i dont know if is possible 2 receive varios wardec but if it is limiting to one.
this are some ideas 2 keep the wardec but i think this will balance it more.
Having an option to wardec only to a constellation/region might not be a bad idea since it would allow, say, a small mining corp to fight the rival that keeps mining in the same belts as them without paying the 50 mil wardec fee. Or it would let a griefer corp dec only in the Jita area.
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Tason Hyena
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.02.23 01:10:00 -
[78]
I agree very much with Malcanis's counter-proposal.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.02.23 01:34:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Malcanis There's no arguing that the wardec system needs reforming, but making wardecs optional* isn't the way forward.
A more formal system with declared grievances, declared objectives and declared peace conditions would be better.
And these should apply to both parties. If the wardeccing corp declares a peace condition of "disband corp", then it is under the same ban itself. The war continues until one corp disbands. That would add an element of risk and increase the value of mercs, no? Ditto for a peace condition of "pay 1 billion ISK". If the deccing corp wants to impose this peace condition, it should have to put up a bond for that amount, which they forfeit if they let the war lapse.
But with more stringent conditions on the deccing corp, should also come more stringent conditions on the decced. eg: wardec follows characters leaving either corp for 24 hours, no-one in corp can create a new corp for the duration of the war, etc etc. The tactic of cycling through corps to evade a dec is just as cheap as the tactic of deccing noob corps.
*Yes I know they pretty much are already, but you know what I mean.
This makes some sense.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.23 03:09:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Sokratesz Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. ... enjoying an iceland trip off of your sub money atm ... Also drake, being csm doesn¦t prevent me from laughing at stupid ideas. ...
This is totally why I voted for Sok. And I'll do it next time too.
-Liang
-- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.02.23 05:19:00 -
[81]
Originally by: James Tritanius
Originally by: blod miner Edited by: blod miner on 22/02/2010 23:01:56 some players only see EVE has a pvp game but others see more than that and those who dont see it only has a pvp game are forced 2 play a pvp.
Thanks for clearing that up a little.
You can play EVE as PvE game. You just have to keep your head low and stay in an NPC corp.
I disagree, because there is PVP at every level in Eve.
Ok so shooting rats, missions or mining are PVE to a point but as soon as you need to sell your loot you are competing against other players! Do not simply treat the term PVP as "Shooting other players in the face".
Wardecing does allow (for example) an industrial corp to attack their market competitors directly (or via mercs). It also allows people to disrupt supply chains of larger entities (though much is done via NPC corp alts anyway).
I felt I had to comment because of the suggestion that wardecs should be mutual because "all wardeccing against industrial corps is due to people with RL problems" which is something I find ridiculous
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.02.23 06:48:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 23/02/2010 06:50:36 I'm sorry... but I am really getting sick and tired of hearing "Wardecs allow industrialists to attack competitors" as an excuse or an valid argument.
That is utter bull**** and you know it.
Since when has an industrialist corporation ever war-dec'd?
In case you people forgot... you make nothing in PVP'ing... there is no profit... ergo... 99% of the indies in high sec won't even bother... they just go somewhere else or hire a merc to deal with the problem.
So stop coming up with excuses and assumptions and start dealing in facts.
Fact - War-decs are DOMINATED by greifers who seek to PVP soft targets. Fact - War-decs are DOMINATED by corporations seeking to disrupt logistics in 0.0
Now maybe I'm just a guy in a cave but I have never heard of an indy corp war-dec'ing an another for indy reasons.
POS take down? Doesn't qualify... and most hire a merc to handle that.
99% of indy corps are always on the receiving end from some pvp corporation or some such.
Its both hilarious and totally stupid to see people tell me and everyone else "oh but it allows ______ to do this to an another corp"
Wake up... just come out and say it. Stop lying to yourselves.
You'll live longer.
And let me emphasize that while I have an issue with the excuse that I just blew away... it is in no way a valid argument for me to say war-decs should be nerfed... or buffed for that matter.
Just don't put the blame or reasoning in the equation that wardecs are useful in THAT context. Useful or not... they aren't using it... because there's no point to it. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.23 07:05:00 -
[83]
Um, why would an industrial corp dec anyone? That would be pretty stupid and put their assets at risk for no reason. They pay mercenaries to do the wardeccing.
But yeah anyway, well done for working out that most rational people prefer to start fights when they're likely to win...
...u mad, bro?
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Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.02.23 19:05:00 -
[84]
There is an idea, corps would pay for the ability to wardec per system. Each system would cost more then the previous one. This would make wars have a point in high sec to control recources yet make it hard for griefers. Costs could be set that it would be impractical to control more then a handful of high sec.
Only downside is major trade hubs would be constant war systems. (I mean it not like people ever war there.)
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Tason Hyena
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.02.24 00:05:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Malcanis Um, why would an industrial corp dec anyone? That would be pretty stupid and put their assets at risk for no reason. They pay mercenaries to do the wardeccing.
But yeah anyway, well done for working out that most rational people prefer to start fights when they're likely to win...
...u mad, bro?
No I think his point is that the industrial corp argument is used to justify the need for hi-sec wardecs, and it really isn't something that happens. So he's annoyed when it is used as a counter-argument.
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Glonn
Amarr Vivicide Vivisection.
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Posted - 2010.02.24 00:37:00 -
[86]
So the freedom to avoid a war by 'chickening out' makes this game great? No it does not. This would be a HORRIBLE idea. How about we make it so you can't pvp someone unless they lock you back and push the fire button!?
In real life I declare war on you, aw you don't want war. I'm sorry we don't have war.
The brutal truth is war is hell.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.02.24 02:30:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Tason Hyena
Originally by: Malcanis Um, why would an industrial corp dec anyone? That would be pretty stupid and put their assets at risk for no reason. They pay mercenaries to do the wardeccing.
But yeah anyway, well done for working out that most rational people prefer to start fights when they're likely to win...
...u mad, bro?
No I think his point is that the industrial corp argument is used to justify the need for hi-sec wardecs, and it really isn't something that happens. So he's annoyed when it is used as a counter-argument.
Remind me to buy you a drink when WIS comes out. o7 ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
343guilty1
Gallente Strategic Insanity
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Posted - 2010.02.24 06:11:00 -
[88]
Oh... My... GAWD just f-ing surrender the damn war -.- this thread has gone on too long and is not going to go through, so can it be dropped already please? cheezus....
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Arcturus Raz
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Posted - 2010.02.24 09:05:00 -
[89]
Just make war-decs more expensive. That will filter those corps that have legit reasons from pansy pvp corps that are to chicken to fight in low-sec. Triple war-dec fees and make the costs increase exponentially after the first week.
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Doctor Mabuse
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Posted - 2010.02.24 13:00:00 -
[90]
I have a sneaking suspicion that to take part in the Tyrannis land grab, players will need to be in a player corp. As it is intended that planetry interaction has a low barrier to entry I forsee lots of new shiny corps, all ready to be decced ------------------------------------
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
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fivetide humidyear
Gallente Fool Mental Junket
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Posted - 2010.02.24 13:28:00 -
[91]
Edited by: fivetide humidyear on 24/02/2010 13:28:50
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sokratesz Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. ... enjoying an iceland trip off of your sub money atm ... Also drake, being csm doesn¦t prevent me from laughing at stupid ideas. ...
This is totally why I voted for Sok. And I'll do it next time too.
-Liang
I'd just like to quote this for it being the same reason Sok got my vote.
also, the lack of support in this thread warms the ****les of my (war deccing) heart.
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Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.02.24 15:08:00 -
[92]
There are some good ideas here but it seems a few people who do not want this passed are trolling in order to prevent the more mature people from actually seeing the good ideas.
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Sir Fourhead
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:58:00 -
[93]
Supported.
There should be no war decs
High sec should be just like 0.0 Please pardon the prissy overtones that will be found throughout this letter, but the reservoir from which CCP draws its lickspittles is primarily the masses of revolting enemies of the people. |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.02.24 20:29:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Bagehi on 24/02/2010 20:29:35
Originally by: Drake Draconis I'm sorry... but I am really getting sick and tired of hearing "Wardecs allow industrialists to attack competitors" as an excuse or an valid argument.
That is utter bull**** and you know it.
Since when has an industrialist corporation ever war-dec'd?
Before moving to 0.0, the industrial corp I was in did it often to keep competitors out of the area and to keep belts from being cleaned out before we could get to all the shiny rocks in them.
Originally by: Drake Draconis
In case you people forgot... you make nothing in PVP'ing... there is no profit... ergo... 99% of the indies in high sec won't even bother... they just go somewhere else or hire a merc to deal with the problem.
Pretty much false. Ganking freighters is HUGE profit. Spend a day or two ratting to get the sec back and gank another. Wardecing an industrial corp who doesn't hide and fights back poorly is also HUGE profit. Not allowing PVP players to wardec empire corps would reduce the ability of small PVP corps to have income, definitely.
Originally by: Drake Draconis
So stop coming up with excuses and assumptions and start dealing in facts.
Fact - War-decs are DOMINATED by greifers who seek to PVP soft targets. Fact - War-decs are DOMINATED by corporations seeking to disrupt logistics in 0.0
It sounds like you take war decs personally. They are almost always profit driven - whether by a competing industrial corp or a PVP corp. Even in 0.0, most wars are over scarce resources (i.e. profit driven).
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Now maybe I'm just a guy in a cave but I have never heard of an indy corp war-dec'ing an another for indy reasons.
Did this on a regular basis when I was in an indy corp so we could control omber mining, later to control a drone plex which was the source of high end minerals for manufacturing. If you are in an indy corp and aren't pushing your weight around a little (if you don't have people who can fight in your corp, then at least by hiring mercenaries to do it for you), you are doing it wrong.
Originally by: Drake Draconis
POS take down? Doesn't qualify... and most hire a merc to handle that.
True for the most part. POSs in high sec usually don't have the guns to be a threat to even a pile of mission runners.
Originally by: Drake Draconis 99% of indy corps are always on the receiving end from some pvp corporation or some such.
Again, PVP corps have to make money too. Either they are making money off your loot or they are making money on a mercenary contract taken out on you.
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Its both hilarious and totally stupid to see people tell me and everyone else "oh but it allows ______ to do this to an another corp"
Wake up... just come out and say it. Stop lying to yourselves.
You'll live longer.
And let me emphasize that while I have an issue with the excuse that I just blew away... it is in no way a valid argument for me to say war-decs should be nerfed... or buffed for that matter.
Just don't put the blame or reasoning in the equation that wardecs are useful in THAT context. Useful or not... they aren't using it... because there's no point to it.
Yeah, you pretty much ended up sounding like a dumb industrialist. No one can differentiate products in Eve, so the only way you control margins is through scarcity... usually created by muscling out competition. PVP wars are cheaper than price wars.
Fix Local |
Brodit
Gallente Dark Harlequin
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Posted - 2010.02.24 21:11:00 -
[95]
I sympathise with the OP, but unfortunately you are starting from false perspective. New Eden is a dangerous place filled with people whose sole aim is to make your wealth/reputation less than thiers. I own a corp that could be considered "industrial" but we've never been dec'd (that'll change after this post ). However there are many things you can do to avoid/dissuade combat. The best is mobility. Working in Hek and dec'd by a corp, mine in amarr space. Will they follow, unlikely, chances are they based in Mini space too. You are industrialists, therefor high Int and Mem, Ewar your enemy out of the game. Train up trade skills, and fly outposts. Make money while they lose it on an impotent dec. This way you turn thier strength (combat) into a weakness, whilst they force you to play to your strengths.
So no, don't support the motion.
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Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.02.24 21:49:00 -
[96]
We also need to remember that the "Treaty" mechanic is supposed to be implemented before long so entering into a mutual defense pact may be something that is already on the horizon.
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Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2010.02.25 03:48:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Zonefire The original purpose of this thread was to propose some way for new high sec, non-combat focus corps to avoid being griefed by people who have RL problems. But for some reason people keep drfting away from the topic.
So does that mean it's OK for those of us who do not have RL problems to grief, I mean war dec, new high sec, non-combat focus corps? ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.02.25 03:54:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
Originally by: Zonefire The original purpose of this thread was to propose some way for new high sec, non-combat focus corps to avoid being griefed by people who have RL problems. But for some reason people keep drfting away from the topic.
So does that mean it's OK for those of us who do not have RL problems to grief, I mean war dec, new high sec, non-combat focus corps?
Well by griefing you prove you have RL problems. Instead focus on the good ideas people have with wars being system base.
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Dianeces
Buttered On The Wrong Side
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Posted - 2010.02.25 06:22:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Zonefire
Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
Originally by: Zonefire The original purpose of this thread was to propose some way for new high sec, non-combat focus corps to avoid being griefed by people who have RL problems. But for some reason people keep drfting away from the topic.
So does that mean it's OK for those of us who do not have RL problems to grief, I mean war dec, new high sec, non-combat focus corps?
Well by griefing you prove you have RL problems. Instead focus on the good ideas people have with wars being system base.
Well aren't you just the cutest little internet psychologist. You're quite adorable.
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Daemonspirit
Redhawk Tribal Trust
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Posted - 2010.02.25 13:23:00 -
[100]
Originally by: gwabakk Eve online is a great MMO game because it allows the players freedom of choice of what careers they want to explore. The game had a very fine balance indeed between the interests of, say, the casual miner and the hardcore combat pilots. Each and everyone was allowed its fair amount of time and space in the game to persue whatever they choose to do.
Do you know the history of eve? At one point, there were no war-decs at all - that's right, because there was -no- hi-sec. The game had -no- balance between miners and combat pilots at all.
Originally by: gwabakk Now, with wardeccing, they are forced into a path they did not choose, and they do not whish to follow. High-sec isn't called high-sec for nothing,
Just to reiterate: Its called "hi-sec", not "safe-sec".
Originally by: gwabakk My corp, less than a month old, has already been wardecced three times, every time without a proper reason.
In *your* opinion, without proper reason.
Originally by: gwabakk Wardeccing has given combat corps that do not want/dare to engage their equals the perfect to tool to just attack the defenseless instead, getting easy kills perfectly legal, and all that in high-sec. That can hardly have been the intention of the designers of this game feature.
Actually, I think you would be surprised at what CCP has to say about it... They have stated, on NUMEROUS occasions, that "player interaction, consensual or otherwise, is what Eve is all about..."
Originally by: gwabakk Wardeccing is disabling the free choice of career paths in eve (freedom that the game was designed for), and forcing miners to quit player corps and join NPC corps instead (which eve was not designed for).
Look, if you SERIOUSLY can't stand the thought of (in game) blowing the **** out of some bandit that desperately WANTS it...
Use alts on your accounts to create shell corps, war-dec comes in, drop corp, move to new corp, last guy out of the old corp takes all the corps assets, gives them to new corp owner, VIOLA! No more war.
Although, I honestly believe that with only a wee bit of training and practice, you would be surprised at how much fun it can be to blow up a fellow pod pilot.
So, since there is already a perfectly fine method to avoiding a war, I do not support your proposal.
My apologies.
ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
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Cash McGee
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Posted - 2010.02.25 13:27:00 -
[101]
Can't believe I missed this jewel.
NO, EVE has never been about having a choice to avoid pvp.
However, I did find a solution that would help you avoid wardecs for good.
How to avoid PVP in EVE
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Asuri Kinnes
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.02.25 14:18:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Cash McGee Can't believe I missed this jewel.
NO, EVE has never been about having a choice to avoid pvp.
However, I did find a solution that would help you avoid wardecs for good.
How to avoid PVP in EVE
Lame meme is lame... I mean.. that's not even a "rick-roll..."
Avoiding empire wars, nerfing suicide ganking, wth is going on here...? Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.02.26 00:42:00 -
[103]
Originally by: TeaDaze
Originally by: Zonefire The original purpose of this thread was to propose some way for new high sec, non-combat focus corps to avoid being griefed by people who have RL problems.
What about those people who use war decs against high sec corps but don't actually have RL problems?
Not everyone who wardecs empire corps is a mental basket case, some players actually like to PVP in a PVP game
Then go to low-sec or null-sec and fight other people who like to PVP and who might actually beat you.
Wardeccing newbs and industrials in high-sec is not PVP, its just a cheap, coward's trick -- shooting fish in a barrel.
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Dianeces
Buttered On The Wrong Side
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Posted - 2010.02.26 00:44:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Originally by: TeaDaze
Originally by: Zonefire The original purpose of this thread was to propose some way for new high sec, non-combat focus corps to avoid being griefed by people who have RL problems.
What about those people who use war decs against high sec corps but don't actually have RL problems?
Not everyone who wardecs empire corps is a mental basket case, some players actually like to PVP in a PVP game
Then go to low-sec or null-sec and fight other people who like to PVP and who might actually beat you.
Wardeccing newbs and industrials in high-sec is not PVP, its just a cheap, coward's trick -- shooting fish in a barrel.
u mad?~
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.02.26 00:50:00 -
[105]
Originally by: De'Veldrin ... I would also agree with the idea of implementing a character level war dec flag that follows a character leaving a war decced corp for a period of 7 days or until the war officially ends, whichever is shorter.
I'll support that enthusiastically when I get that "mining dec" I mentioned before.
Remember, people pay REAL WORLD MONEY to play this game. It should not be possible for griefers to leave them no options but to pay for a game they cannot actually play.
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Dianeces
Buttered On The Wrong Side
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Posted - 2010.02.26 01:35:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Originally by: De'Veldrin ... I would also agree with the idea of implementing a character level war dec flag that follows a character leaving a war decced corp for a period of 7 days or until the war officially ends, whichever is shorter.
I'll support that enthusiastically when I get that "mining dec" I mentioned before.
Remember, people pay REAL WORLD MONEY to play this game. It should not be possible for griefers to leave them no options but to pay for a game they cannot actually play.
I didn't realize CCP added a feature to wardecs where people who get wardecced aren't allowed to log in at all. That's a p. chill feature.
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.02.26 02:19:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Originally by: De'Veldrin ... I would also agree with the idea of implementing a character level war dec flag that follows a character leaving a war decced corp for a period of 7 days or until the war officially ends, whichever is shorter.
I'll support that enthusiastically when I get that "mining dec" I mentioned before.
Remember, people pay REAL WORLD MONEY to play this game. It should not be possible for griefers to leave them no options but to pay for a game they cannot actually play.
I didn't realize CCP added a feature to wardecs where people who get wardecced aren't allowed to log in at all. That's a p. chill feature.
Removing the option to leave a wardecced corp is FORCING people who have no interest in combat and who have not trained combat skills to pay to not play. Stuck in station unable to do anything that you are paying real world money to do is the same as not being able to log on at all.
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Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.02.26 03:01:00 -
[108]
Exactly, people are paying real money in order to play a game. By allowing corps to grief newer players in high sec, such as station camping, people are paying money to not play the game. Now CCP could give money back to players who cant do anything during a wardec but they won'.
So making wars system based would be better. That way would be like fighting over recources but war deccing many corps over one system would be unrealilistic so it would be between just a few corps. Of corse you coud pay more for more systems but each one gets more expensive. This way newer people can get out while people who want to pvp can.
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Daemonspirit
Redhawk Tribal Trust
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Posted - 2010.02.26 05:13:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Zonefire Exactly, people are paying real money in order to play a game. By allowing corps to grief newer players in high sec, such as station camping, people are paying money to not play the game. Now CCP could give money back to players who cant do anything during a wardec but they won'.
So making wars system based would be better. That way would be like fighting over recources but war deccing many corps over one system would be unrealilistic so it would be between just a few corps. Of corse you coud pay more for more systems but each one gets more expensive. This way newer people can get out while people who want to pvp can.
Jumpin' Jehosaphat!
JUST DROP CORP!
You and your buddies make up a new corp, and every day a new dec comes in, drop corp to one of your other holding corps. Hell, disband corps and make new ones...
Stop asking for something that already exists in game, and is supported by CCP!
jesus...
ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.02.26 05:41:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Daemonspirit
Jumpin' Jehosaphat!
JUST DROP CORP!
You and your buddies make up a new corp, and every day a new dec comes in, drop corp to one of your other holding corps. Hell, disband corps and make new ones...
Stop asking for something that already exists in game, and is supported by CCP!
jesus...
This is an example of people who need to be a little more mature. Instead of just instantly dismissing issues, look at it from the other persons side.
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ShahFluffers
Gallente Vitharr's Vengeance
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Posted - 2010.02.26 09:32:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Zonefire
Originally by: Daemonspirit
Jumpin' Jehosaphat!
JUST DROP CORP!
You and your buddies make up a new corp, and every day a new dec comes in, drop corp to one of your other holding corps. Hell, disband corps and make new ones...
Stop asking for something that already exists in game, and is supported by CCP!
jesus...
This is an example of people who need to be a little more mature. Instead of just instantly dismissing issues, look at it from the other persons side.
It's not that he's being immature. It's more along the lines of "Oh crap, not this again. Haven't they got the message already?" What the people here are trying to say is that the mechanics to "avoid" war or "deal with it" are already there. You simply have to learn about and take advantage of it rather than ask that the mechanics be changed.
Now... I personally do not support this proposal. The whole reason I like this game is for its PvP element... an element that the CCP Devs have time and time again stated that they strive towards. Is it perfect? Hardly. But there in lies the challenge in making a game that is geared towards forcing "player confrontation" one way or another and making it so that new players are not at a complete disadvantage.
If someone declares war on you, rather than ***** and moan you should weigh you options. - Do you move operations to another part of the cluster? (a lot of people, myself included, are lazy and will not pursue targets if they too far away) - Do you jump into t1 frigates and cruisers and lay some hurt on them? (protip: many war decs will end when the aggressing corp's isk efficiency dives... so while you may lose 5 or even 10 t1 fitted t1 cruisers, if focus your fire on their expensive stuff and pop it, you win) - Do you jump corp? (self explanatory) - Do you "hibernate"? (stay in station... play the market... and be as boring as possible; stop talking back to your aggressers... talking gives them more "resolve" with which to keep their hunt going)
So it's not that we don't see your point of view. It's more that we've been there, we've clawed our way through, now it's your turn. _______________________
"Just because I look like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.02.26 13:39:00 -
[112]
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 26/02/2010 13:39:47
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Removing the option to leave a wardecced corp is FORCING people who have no interest in combat and who have not trained combat skills to pay to not play. Stuck in station unable to do anything that you are paying real world money to do is the same as not being able to log on at all.
I was unaware that it stopped you from pausing training on that character and rolling an alt in an NPC corp. Sure it may suck, but you can still play the game.
Face it, your "I can't play, so don't let them wardec me" argument is bull****, and everyone here, including you, knows it. --Vel
Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats. |
Mistress Servelan
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.02.26 14:45:00 -
[113]
lol
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.02.26 15:54:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/02/2010 16:06:16 Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/02/2010 15:57:31 Bagehi - Thank you so much for proving to us that the art of bull****ting is not lost on PVP'ers.
I haven't laughed that hard in a long time.
Whats ridiculous is your bold faced enough to actually argue something that is obviously wrong and false.
I've known many many industrialist corporations... and they don't even pull some of the crap you even CLAIMED to do.
Only corporations that do that are Greifing PVP'ers. PVP'ers don't like industry and only go so far as to make sure they have enough ISK to do whatever it is they want to do. I know very few who are actually good at both things as it is.
What you claimed are very (if at all) rare incidents and only possible when your corporation just happens to have a capable and good enough PVP force... that or you used a second corporation or hired a merc live everyone else.
Please... give it up.... we can see right through you.
Industrialists don't have time to "gank" freighters... What the heck kind of argument is that? You have any idea how much firepower and effort it takes to gank a freighter? Sure as hell won't be in a war-dec unless the other corproation is really that stupid!
(And sad to say I've seen some but even then everyone knows its stupid to drag a freighter out in a war dec! DUH!)
We don't have time to war-dec because "someone stole our omber belt". There are hundreds upon hundreds of asteroids out there... they just move on to a different system. Or move out.
Honestly... why do people keep this tripe up.
War-dec's are not a personal thing... please... grow up... stop using childish reasoning for once. War-decs are broken... but nerfing them or buffing them is a waste of time because it ends up unbalancing the whole system.
My "personal" issue is the asshats who come up with stupid arguments. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.02.26 16:08:00 -
[115]
How did I miss this thread.
I particularly love this little gem.
Originally by: Zonefire Well by griefing you prove you have RL problems.
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gwabakk
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Posted - 2010.02.26 22:49:00 -
[116]
Less than two days after the third wardec in one month ended, we received another wardec...
Lessons learned: - Staying docked is not a feasible strategy because it means I will stay docked for more than 80% of the time - Hiring a merc corp is not a feasible strategy because at this rate the corp will be broke very soon - Fighting is not a feasible strategy because it means I will have to fight for more than 80% of my time, and cannot play the game the way I want to - Disbandling the corp and create another one is not a feasible strategy, because than we would have to do that once every week - Wardeccing is effectively making it impossible to run this corp
Wardeccing is broken. Fix it or get rid of it
Gwabakk
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.02.26 22:59:00 -
[117]
Join an alliance.
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Dianeces
Buttered On The Wrong Side
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Posted - 2010.02.26 23:01:00 -
[118]
Originally by: gwabakk Less than two days after the third wardec in one month ended, we received another wardec...
Lessons learned: - Staying docked is not a feasible strategy because it means I will stay docked for more than 80% of the time - Hiring a merc corp is not a feasible strategy because at this rate the corp will be broke very soon - Fighting is not a feasible strategy because it means I will have to fight for more than 80% of my time, and cannot play the game the way I want to - Disbandling the corp and create another one is not a feasible strategy, because than we would have to do that once every week - Wardeccing is effectively making it impossible to run this corp
Wardeccing is broken. Fix it or get rid of it
Gwabakk
You forgot one:
-Whining on the forums won't work; nobody cares about you.
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ShahFluffers
Gallente Vitharr's Vengeance
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Posted - 2010.02.26 23:15:00 -
[119]
Originally by: gwabakk Less than two days after the third wardec in one month ended, we received another wardec...
How are you getting these wardecs?????? Send them to me!!
But seriously, you're doing something to catch people's ire. You or someone in your corp is probably doing something to draw unnecessary attention (i.e. screaming in local, saying that the people that flipped them are idiots, greifers, and have no life, etc) hence all the war decs.
Another protrip: pods instawarp, you can escape station that way. _______________________
"Just because I look like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.26 23:19:00 -
[120]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 26/02/2010 23:23:54 Edited by: James Lyrus on 26/02/2010 23:22:56 As someone who started out EVE somewhat 'highsec' focussed - 5 years ago, I thought abolishing war declarations were a stupid idea, and I still feel that way today. We still do quite a lot of... well, everything really. Industry included. And I think war declarations are very positive, even when they do occasionally make our lives a little less convenient.
It's really very simple - there's a lot of mediocre corps in EVE. I mean, the kind that someone joins unsuspectingly, and somehow EVE turns all boring, and they quit.
These I call 'failcorps' and they're usually the kind of corp that do a bit of everything, and whine when something isn't ultra convenient for them. The war declaration mechanism filters these corps out, by encouraging the players in them to take the initiative. To sharpen up and fight back. Or to sharpen up and evade the war. Or just accept that they are a failcorp, and go join a corp that isn't pathetic, and find they don't have a problem any more.
Originally by: gwabakk Less than two days after the third wardec in one month ended, we received another wardec...
Lessons learned: - Staying docked is not a feasible strategy because it means I will stay docked for more than 80% of the time - Hiring a merc corp is not a feasible strategy because at this rate the corp will be broke very soon - Fighting is not a feasible strategy because it means I will have to fight for more than 80% of my time, and cannot play the game the way I want to - Disbandling the corp and create another one is not a feasible strategy, because than we would have to do that once every week - Wardeccing is effectively making it impossible to run this corp
Wardeccing is broken. Fix it or get rid of it
Gwabakk
Case in point. Your best option here is to accept that you haven't got what it takes to run your own corp. There are any number of 'real' corps out there, who would happily accept a member who's a wardec magnet, because ... well, it's a free war. Chances are though, you'd see no sign of a war declaration.
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Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.02.26 23:24:00 -
[121]
I agree, there is no way you are randomly getting war decced like this.
Likely cause here is someone running their mouth as that tends to be about 90% of the reasons why war decs happen to a corp like yours. Either that or someone has a big wallet and a bone to pick with you for some other reason. PVP corps don't like station camping anymore than you do. Anyone doing it for economic purposes normally tells you why they are doing it so someone is paying them to grief you, one of your corp m8's is bringing this on you, or you are incredibly unlucky.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.02.26 23:27:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/02/2010 23:28:59 The problem is... while there are many fail corps... there are legitimate start ups.
Shadow Cadre is... was... still is one of these corps.
We are a small and financially poor at best... most of our assets are in the ships we just barely are able to afford.
We can't generate income or bother to mine or manufacture because we get war-dec'd every f'ing time we turn around.
And we don't do a damn thing... we don't smacktalk (I insta-kick anyone who does pretty much). We don't "attract attention" and we sure as hell don't compete as we have nothing to compete with.
All we get is "oh we saw you flying a battlecruiser" and they war-dec you.
War-decs target easy prey..they never target anyone who is bigger or stronger than you are. With the exception of addicts that are few and far between of course (Been reading "The Taxman" from the IRS...great writing!).
basically we just wanted to mind our own "boring mediocre" business. Our intention from the start was to get wealthy enough to be able to strike it out on our own in 0.0 or WHS.
But due to the war-dec crap... we always end up jumping from alliance to alliance.. ultimately we ended up living in 0.0 and at least here we can do what we want and not worry too much about getting harassed. (not that we don't... but at least we got some good friends out here who are bloodthirsty enough to handle that problem).
Again... I'm agianst war-decs on principle... but removing them is a mistake. I'm not foolish enough to say that they should be removed all together.. then high sec would grow out of control.
but something has to be done to balance it out... for the small time corps starting up and for the epic fail corps who smack talk out that needs to be crushed.
If you don't get a solution to that problem in whatever changes are wrought... you will run into a total chaos problem... scaring off new players... or a status quo where things get stale.
As it is Shadow Cadre will never have a corp in high sec... we will be NPC because of that threat.
Most of our membership are too busy to deal with pvp crap... we have only a scant few hours to play and that's that.
(I post often because my job is boring but won't allow EVE time : O P Sucks to be me) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.27 00:01:00 -
[123]
The difference between a failcorp and a 'legitimate startup' is that one takes responsibility for it's own continued existence, and doesn't presume a 'right' to be there.
You're quite correct - most war decs are selective in their targets - there's no shortage of failcorps out there, so why should they pick on yours if it doesn't suck?
Sometimes there's reasons for it, like a corptheft, smacktalker, canflipper, whatever. Other times it's just because you look like the kind of corp that isn't going to fight back, and is going to die pointlessly and drop good loot. The way to stop this happening is to stop making yourself a target - there's no shortage of ways to do this, and the easiest one is 'stop being the fish in the barrel'.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.02.27 00:40:00 -
[124]
Originally by: James Lyrus The difference between a failcorp and a 'legitimate startup' is that one takes responsibility for it's own continued existence, and doesn't presume a 'right' to be there.
You're quite correct - most war decs are selective in their targets - there's no shortage of failcorps out there, so why should they pick on yours if it doesn't suck?
Sometimes there's reasons for it, like a corptheft, smacktalker, canflipper, whatever. Other times it's just because you look like the kind of corp that isn't going to fight back, and is going to die pointlessly and drop good loot. The way to stop this happening is to stop making yourself a target - there's no shortage of ways to do this, and the easiest one is 'stop being the fish in the barrel'.
Problem is we've done it all short of the abusive/exploitive hiding in NPC corps to evade war-dec.
So in short its a total and utter waste of time to lecture ME (of all people) as to how to get around it.
The point is there is no way around it... end of discussion (as far as we are concerned).
I don't infer the right to exsist... but I do think this is nigh practically harassment on the greatest levels.
And the reasons for WHY they war-dec us are always the same... the same reason I give everyone else that complains.
Because they can.
They don't need a reason.... and the ones they come up with are epic fail to begin with. (Mining permit would be the most utterly stupid one I can think of off hand)
So please... don't give me the gritty details of how to get around it and how to evade it... because when it gets right down to it... if your in a corp... they can war-dec you no matter who you are or what your doing.
They will war-dec you... regardless... its just a question of who and what.
You could be casually flying a little industrial hauler that's empty and they war-dec you because they see you all the time in some market hub.
never mind the guy smack talking for 1vs1's and dis-hororing them with a neut repper etc..etc..etc..
Ultimately its a greifing tool... and nothing but. Some use it for other reasons... others use it for legitimate reasons... but overall 9 times out of 10 its to greif someone for something as simple as desire.
How do we fix it? I don't have the slightest idea... every suggestion I've seen would bring too much favor to high sec or ruin high sec with non-stop carnage worthy of low-sec and 0.0.
Like it or not... industrialists (carebears as I loath to be told as I prefer industrialist with teeth) are here to stay... you have no ammo...no ships..no nothing without us.
But they don't give a crap..and come up with all kinds of excuses.... so yes... the debate will likely continue on for an another 3 to 5 years or so. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Tellenta
Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.02.27 01:09:00 -
[125]
Am I the only one that reads the accusations of 'griefers with real life problems' and understands the statement as 'I have real life problems would you please stop griefing me I'm tired of crying myself to sleep'. Trolls excluded in this analysis as they are irrelevant.
As someone who has never partook in that many high sec wars I am going to say, no this idea is dumb. As much as I find docking games online adventures a terrible terrible waste of time, I can't find it in my heart to take that whack a mole game away from people.
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.02.27 01:16:00 -
[126]
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 26/02/2010 13:39:47
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Removing the option to leave a wardecced corp is FORCING people who have no interest in combat and who have not trained combat skills to pay to not play. Stuck in station unable to do anything that you are paying real world money to do is the same as not being able to log on at all.
I was unaware that it stopped you from pausing training on that character and rolling an alt in an NPC corp. Sure it may suck, but you can still play the game.
Face it, your "I can't play, so don't let them wardec me" argument is bull****, and everyone here, including you, knows it.
You are confusing who is whom.
I am not the OP, who suggested eliminating non-consensual wardecs.
I am the one who wants them balanced with mining decs -- a state of being that prohibits the decced from leaving station or going through gates unless in a mining barge, exhumer, or industrial. I want to be able to force the griefers to do something as boring and pointless to them as I find combat to be -- something for which they have not trained their skills -- or leave their corp or stay docked and twiddle their thumbs.
Again, we are paying REAL WORLD MONEY. That fact should be sufficient to CCP to design a means to prevent bored cowards -- who would be in low-sec or null-sec if they really wanted PVP instead of risk-free shooting of fish in a barrel -- from preventing PAYING CUSTOMERS from playing the game they purchased.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.27 01:18:00 -
[127]
Drake, you're missing something here. We are an industry focussed corp, and have been for 5 years. We've never really had a problem. Actually, if someone would like to wardec us, that would be lovely. It serves very nicely as a training exercise.
That's why I would 'lecture' you - because I have quite literally 'been there, done that' and that's why I assert that the current scenario is not a problem.
Wars aren't griefing, any more than mining someone elses roids are griefing, or undercutting them on the market. The mines in minesweeper aren't 'griefing' you. They just part of the game - part which separates the men from the boys. (OR the Carebears from the Industrialists with Teeth if you prefer)
"because they can" is true enough, but you're projecting altogether too much animosity onto another player. It's more like 'because they can, and because it'll work'. If they don't get any kills during the war, or worse end up losing ships, then they probably won't bother in future. It really is that simple - 'griefing' you specifically really isn't worth the effort, unless you've gone out of your way to annoy.
Oh, and you'll probably find that most of the 'griefers' you refer to, are more than capable of doing their own manufacturing and industry. The strategic thinking team player who's effective in PvP is almost certainly also going to be effective should they choose to turn their hand to industry as well.
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.02.27 01:26:00 -
[128]
Originally by: James Lyrus ...and the easiest one is 'stop being the fish in the barrel'.
Translation: Eve is not really a sandbox. There is only one right way to play and anyone who wants to play in any other fashion must be crushed, ridiculed, and driven out of the game.
Yeah. Right.
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Tellenta
Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.02.27 01:49:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Tellenta on 27/02/2010 01:54:59
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Again, we are paying REAL WORLD MONEY. That fact should be sufficient to CCP to design a means to prevent bored cowards -- who would be in low-sec or null-sec if they really wanted PVP instead of risk-free shooting of fish in a barrel -- from preventing PAYING CUSTOMERS from playing the game they purchased.
I find the stance that just because you are paying someone to play THEIR game, gives you and form of right to dictate how THEIR game is played rather idiotic. I myself enjoy playing EVE online even with all the faults and lolunfairness that comes a long with the game. However lets both be clear on a point, the 'griefers' are ALSO paying for this game, you have no monopoly on this paying concept the only difference is that you are paying for a game you do not like apparently. How foolish is that.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.02.27 01:54:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Originally by: De'Veldrin Edited by: De''Veldrin on 26/02/2010 13:39:47
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Removing the option to leave a wardecced corp is FORCING people who have no interest in combat and who have not trained combat skills to pay to not play. Stuck in station unable to do anything that you are paying real world money to do is the same as not being able to log on at all.
I was unaware that it stopped you from pausing training on that character and rolling an alt in an NPC corp. Sure it may suck, but you can still play the game.
Face it, your "I can't play, so don't let them wardec me" argument is bull****, and everyone here, including you, knows it.
You are confusing who is whom.
I am not the OP, who suggested eliminating non-consensual wardecs.
I am the one who wants them balanced with mining decs -- a state of being that prohibits the decced from leaving station or going through gates unless in a mining barge, exhumer, or industrial. I want to be able to force the griefers to do something as boring and pointless to them as I find combat to be -- something for which they have not trained their skills -- or leave their corp or stay docked and twiddle their thumbs.
Again, we are paying REAL WORLD MONEY. That fact should be sufficient to CCP to design a means to prevent bored cowards -- who would be in low-sec or null-sec if they really wanted PVP instead of risk-free shooting of fish in a barrel -- from preventing PAYING CUSTOMERS from playing the game they purchased.
And you are missing the point. And I'm beginning to think it's on purpose. No one is stopping you from playing the game you purchased with your real world money. Until a war dec comes through that boots you out of the game and locks out your login account, that statement will never be true no matter how many times you bold underline parts of it.
If the problem is that you don't like other active players being able to dictate (in part) the content of your game experience, then I have bad news for you -- you are playing the wrong game. --Vel
Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats. |
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Amberlyn Stardreamer
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Posted - 2010.02.27 02:26:00 -
[131]
Originally by: De'Veldrin ... If the problem is that you don't like other active players being able to dictate (in part) the content of your game experience, then I have bad news for you -- you are playing the wrong game.
Then you support the mining dec idea?
So that I have an equal chance to dictate the content of the griefer cowards game?
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Munin Ravensong
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Posted - 2010.02.27 02:42:00 -
[132]
IMHO, the OP did have a point. As things stand it is incredibly easy (and far too cheap) for a greifer corp to wardec an industrial/mining corp and do very bad things to any mining ship foolish enough to come out of dock.
Of course since you do get 24 hours, you could go set up a PoS in Wormhole space and go make real money for a while while your enemy goes broke. (oh wait as long as one of them donates a single lvl 1 mission a day they can pay the declaration fee forever.) To players who have been around a bit, a wardec from a highsec greifer corp just means time to go work out in low / null and watch as they spend money on the dec, but are afraid to come out into low / null to get any kills. Oh, right... that's why they pick on carebear mining corps.
As an alternate idea I'd reccoment a change to teh wardec pricing, bringing the base price of 2-3 mill a week (seriously if both corps have no wars, it only costs as much as 3 tractor beam 1's)to something a little more consequential, say a base of 10 - 20 mill a week. I actually like the Highsec wars - I just think that there needs to be enough of a cansequence of starting a war other than potential losses to make people think twice about just tossing the wardec out there. If you have a good enough reason, you will find a way to pay the dec cost no matter how high just to make the other SoB bleed.
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Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.02.27 03:12:00 -
[133]
Originally by: ShahFluffers
Originally by: gwabakk Less than two days after the third wardec in one month ended, we received another wardec...
How are you getting these wardecs?????? Send them to me!!
But seriously, you're doing something to catch people's ire. You or someone in your corp is probably doing something to draw unnecessary attention (i.e. screaming in local, saying that the people that flipped them are idiots, greifers, and have no life, etc) hence all the war decs.
Another protrip: pods instawarp, you can escape station that way.
Well we got a wardec because a corp run by Holy8th, decided to wardec us. His corp was onyl going after miners and failing at killing a few combat ships without having 5 people on one. But recently an alliance heard about this and wardeced holy8th's corp. His corp got station camped so they stop the war. Then rumor has it he payed a merc corp 700 MIL, to wwardec this tiny little indy corp.
Thats pretty funny and sad at the same time.
Diplomacy does help, but once an indy's money reserves run out, they cant do much in a war dec. Thats why system war decs would be a better solution, so if you dont want to fight you can leave, but consequences you could easily lose your mining sites near your HQ. This would be a great solution but a lot of trollers tend to add a bunch of rants to this thread so a lot of people didn't see the good posts.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.02.27 04:45:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Originally by: De'Veldrin ... If the problem is that you don't like other active players being able to dictate (in part) the content of your game experience, then I have bad news for you -- you are playing the wrong game.
Then you support the mining dec idea?
So that I have an equal chance to dictate the content of the griefer cowards game?
You already do. Industrial corps have a direct impact on the amount of ISK PvP centric players pay for their equipment. It's a symbiotic relationship in which neither would survive very long (or at least not happily) without the other.
You're not getting the idea behind EvE. It is not an instanced world. It is not neatly divided pockets of activity. It is, more than any other MMO, just like the real world. Everyone is all smashed up together, and what you do affects other people, just as what they do affects you.
The griefers, as you refer to them, do not dictate HOW you play the game unless you LET them. Certainly they dictate what happens around you, but no more or less than a suicide ganker at a gate, or a market competitor that undercuts your sale of EMP M. If you want a game where you're not impacted by other players - I reiterate, you REALLY picked the wrong game. --Vel
Forum Mom: Spanking the snot out of little brats. |
Larg Kellein
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.02.27 09:41:00 -
[135]
Wardecs could use a price increase, but that's about it.
Sorry, OP, but your idea won't happen. It flies directly in the face of the core principles of Eve, one of which is that nowhere is entirely safe.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.02.27 09:51:00 -
[136]
This thread is still lols.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Shawna Gray
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.27 11:35:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Originally by: James Lyrus ...and the easiest one is 'stop being the fish in the barrel'.
Translation: Eve is not really a sandbox. There is only one right way to play and anyone who wants to play in any other fashion must be crushed, ridiculed, and driven out of the game.
Yeah. Right.
The sandbox still forces you to play within the rules set by the game. You can not project a bubble of immunity around you while still playing the market just as i can not decide that i want to put a doomsday device on my rifter.
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Kilostream
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.27 11:54:00 -
[138]
To the OP,
The thing here is that war decs only lasts for a week.
My recommendation would be to train a bit of pvp skills - not too much, get everyone to spend a couple weeks on some missile / gunnery / propulsion jamming, then build yourself I dunno, 20 rifters (or similar) each and pvp fit them.
Tuck them away in a hangar and go about your mining.
When you get a war dec, treat it as a holiday from mining and go pew pew for a week - I guarantee by the time you have burned through 20 rifters each you will have made many mistakes, learnt much about pvp basics, had a good few laughs and maybe, maybe even gotten a kill.
As with RL, a change is as good as a break, and mining will get pretty tiresome pretty quickly if it's all you ever do.
I realise pvp isn't what you want to do, but hiding, crying and feeling put upon is not going to enrich your game experience - putting the barges away for a week, building some cheap pew pew ships and getting stuck in will - especially if you accept you're going to lose at first, review what happened after every loss, and try to figure out what you can change for next time to prevent that particular loss again.
I think you can see from the responses you got here, the wardec system is unlikely to change the way you want, so your best bet is to find a way to turn what you're seeing right now as a negative into a positive.
Good luck,
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.02.27 15:36:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 27/02/2010 15:37:48
Originally by: James Lyrus Drake, you're missing something here. We are an industry focussed corp, and have been for 5 years. We've never really had a problem. Actually, if someone would like to wardec us, that would be lovely. It serves very nicely as a training exercise.
That's why I would 'lecture' you - because I have quite literally 'been there, done that' and that's why I assert that the current scenario is not a problem.
Wars aren't griefing, any more than mining someone elses roids are griefing, or undercutting them on the market. The mines in minesweeper aren't 'griefing' you. They just part of the game - part which separates the men from the boys. (OR the Carebears from the Industrialists with Teeth if you prefer)
"because they can" is true enough, but you're projecting altogether too much animosity onto another player. It's more like 'because they can, and because it'll work'. If they don't get any kills during the war, or worse end up losing ships, then they probably won't bother in future. It really is that simple - 'griefing' you specifically really isn't worth the effort, unless you've gone out of your way to annoy.
Oh, and you'll probably find that most of the 'griefers' you refer to, are more than capable of doing their own manufacturing and industry. The strategic thinking team player who's effective in PvP is almost certainly also going to be effective should they choose to turn their hand to industry as well.
How nice of you to have a very lucky 5 year run streak.
I stand by what I said... if you want to take it out of context or misinterpret what I'm saying then go right on ahead.
Bottom line is.. the mechanic is broken and the age old excuses people keep coming up with are bull****.
That goes for both sides... war-decced and war-deccer.
And just because you've had little to no trouble doesn't mean everyone else hasn't.
You can pep talk us all you want... you can attempt to rationalize all you want. Won't work.
Because the facts are still there.. the history of what we've had to see first hand is still there.
Alot of EVE is based on luck and various small choices... perhaps we've made some mistakes... that's what makes EVE so great... the sandbox is big and crowded in high sec... probability of escaping/getting someones attention shifts all the time.
Fact remains... if I go back to high sec... it would be stupid to be in a corporation that lives in high sec unless you have a capable and good sized PVP force or skilled in such ways where you can handle it.
Trying to retool an industrialist.... to PVP without getting an additional account... is wholly stupid and utter tripe at best.
And war-decs as a vacation? Only works if it happens once a month.
Back-to-back-to-back war-decs and war-decs that stack on top of each other quickly shoots that down.
And for what reasons did we get war-dec'd so often?
None at all... because they wanted to and they did. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Clumsy Pilot
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Posted - 2010.02.27 16:08:00 -
[140]
Quote: Trying to retool an industrialist.... to PVP without getting an additional account... is wholly stupid and utter tripe at best.
I have to disagree here.
Quote: And for what reasons did we get war-dec'd so often?
because they can, adn they like other's tears, and they don't have the guts to dec someone who fights back.
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Shivani
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Posted - 2010.02.27 17:29:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Shivani on 27/02/2010 17:32:07
Originally by: Sokratesz This thread is still lols.
CCP has asked already to stay in topic. Do you think that said request doesn't affect you? Or do you have anything else constructive to add to this thread? Because except from puny oneliners, there is not much comming from you, aside some hot air.
On topic: As it stands, there are lot of griefers, who are not able to beat someone in a "real" and even leveled pvp scene, war-deccing young, weak, poor, non experienced and small corps. I would propose the following:
a) make war-deccing the more expensive the smaller and younger the war-declared corp b) remove war deccing for corporations that exist for less than 4 months.
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Clumsy Pilot
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Posted - 2010.02.27 17:55:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Shivani Edited by: Shivani on 27/02/2010 17:32:07
Originally by: Sokratesz This thread is still lols.
CCP has asked already to stay in topic. Do you think that said request doesn't affect you? Or do you have anything else constructive to add to this thread? Because except from puny oneliners, there is not much comming from you, aside some hot air.
On topic: As it stands, there are lot of griefers, who are not able to beat someone in a "real" and even leveled pvp scene, war-deccing young, weak, poor, non experienced and small corps. I would propose the following:
a) make war-deccing the more expensive the smaller and younger the war-declared corp b) remove war deccing for corporations that exist for less than 4 months.
I can see what you are trying to do, unfortunately that suggestion would not work.
A) so what, war dec's between 500-men corps become nearly free? that is not right. What happenes if small corporations whant to duke it out because they ****ed each-other off?
b) what if noobs want to duke it out? What if someone creates a new corp every 4 months?
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.27 18:55:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer
Originally by: James Lyrus ...and the easiest one is 'stop being the fish in the barrel'.
Translation: Eve is not really a sandbox. There is only one right way to play and anyone who wants to play in any other fashion must be crushed, ridiculed, and driven out of the game.
Yeah. Right.
Don't be ridiculous. EVE is a sandbox. That means you have to deal with the other kids in that sandbox. Not try to partition it off and say 'this is my bit, go away' and throw a tantrum when they don't see it that way.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.02.27 19:02:00 -
[144]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 27/02/2010 19:02:38
Originally by: Drake Draconis
And just because you've had little to no trouble doesn't mean everyone else hasn't.
You're quite correct. The difference is, I took the problems onboard when they came, and dealt with them. Then they weren't a problem any more.
Quote: Fact remains... if I go back to high sec... it would be stupid to be in a corporation that lives in high sec unless you have a capable and good sized PVP force or skilled in such ways where you can handle it.
Trying to retool an industrialist.... to PVP without getting an additional account... is wholly stupid and utter tripe at best.
Utter nonsense. It takes _very_ little effort to be a threat in combat. It's much more about mindset and thinking, than it is about skill points - even after the 5 years, I'm still flying T1 cruisers a lot, because they are STILL very effective.
But perhaps you're right - it's definitely easier to take a team oriented focussed individual that happens to like PvP and retrain them into industry.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.02.27 19:53:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Shivani Edited by: Shivani on 27/02/2010 17:32:07
Originally by: Sokratesz This thread is still lols.
CCP has asked already to stay in topic. Do you think that said request doesn't affect you? Or do you have anything else constructive to add to this thread? Because except from puny oneliners, there is not much comming from you, aside some hot air.
On topic: As it stands, there are lot of griefers, who are not able to beat someone in a "real" and even leveled pvp scene, war-deccing young, weak, poor, non experienced and small corps. I would propose the following:
a) make war-deccing the more expensive the smaller and younger the war-declared corp b) remove war deccing for corporations that exist for less than 4 months.
Alright, I'll add some more hot air.
EVE is about PVP Wars are about PVP If you log in, you agree with the chance of being blown up. Don't like that? Hello kitty online is that way ------------------------------>
This is the best reply you're gonna get, and guess what, most CCP personnel will say the same, so shut up and fight back.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.02.27 21:29:00 -
[146]
Opposed, high sec war decs are part of game.
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Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2010.02.28 03:30:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Zonefire
Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
Originally by: Zonefire The original purpose of this thread was to propose some way for new high sec, non-combat focus corps to avoid being griefed by people who have RL problems. But for some reason people keep drfting away from the topic.
So does that mean it's OK for those of us who do not have RL problems to grief, I mean war dec, new high sec, non-combat focus corps?
Well by griefing you prove you have RL problems. Instead focus on the good ideas people have with wars being system base.
I am very kind to dogs and other small animals. So I figure I have balance in my karma and can grief my little heart out in this game. War decs could be better. I have fond memories of late 2006 and Privateers running rough shod throughout high sec. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
343guilty1
Gallente Forgotten Godz
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Posted - 2010.02.28 06:43:00 -
[148]
MMK people, i'd like to end this here.... Whatever you THINK, is not true, and high sec is NOT ****ING SAFE! Wars or not (In my case not) you WILL still get popped by *******s, so deal with it =) War decs just give you the chance to see your opponent AND fight back. High sec Gank *Tear* Don't go afk and fall asleep outside of Jita kids
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.02.28 09:03:00 -
[149]
I wonder...the people who think griefers and pirates are de facto sociopaths and potential serial killers - have they been brought up sitting indoors watching teletubbies all day? Did they get stuck in la-la land somewhere along the line? I'll think about it some more next time I go muff diving..
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Shivani
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Posted - 2010.02.28 11:33:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Shivani on 28/02/2010 11:36:24
Originally by: Clumsy Pilot I can see what you are trying to do, unfortunately that suggestion would not work.
A) so what, war dec's between 500-men corps become nearly free? that is not right. What happenes if small corporations whant to duke it out because they ****ed each-other off?
I have not asked to make it free for 500 ppl corps. (Are there anyway corps that big out there?) Quite the opposite, i said: Make it so, that new and small corps have some "safe time", some protected time in Eve to develop themselves and after that they are free to become camped by the usual griefers. A few weeks up to a couple of months should help them out. Of course the usual PvP people will thumb it down. I suspect they are eager for easy kills.
Quote: b) what if noobs want to duke it out? What if someone creates a new corp every 4 months?
Well that happens already and was suggested in another form by the same grief-people over and over in this thread: People will leave the corp and join a NPC corp. Do you think, this is the idea behind joinging and creating a corp? Do you think, that was the intention of CCP when creating the Corp mechanics? To be forced to leave a corp, just because some stupid real life loser is bored and wants some cheap kills yb harassing a newbie corp?
To prevent this from happening i proposed some time in "protected mode" for the newly created corp. Otherwise we coudl just freeze corp creation. new corps will stand no chance against the older ones and against griefers anyway.
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Shawna Gray
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.02.28 12:04:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Back-to-back-to-back war-decs and war-decs that stack on top of each other quickly shoots that down.
And for what reasons did we get war-dec'd so often?
None at all... because they wanted to and they did.
If that is true (and i doubt it) its probably because of your constant crying on the forums attracting attention.
And from the sound of it you are doing nothing at all to discourage them.
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Omega Flames
Last Resort Inn
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Posted - 2010.03.01 11:44:00 -
[152]
Quote: I sympathize with the OP because I believe that there is something wrong when cowardly griefers -- and they are most definitely cowards or they'd be attacking someone of equal skill rather than shooting fish in a barrel by wardeccing newbs and industrialists -- can force people to not play the game that they are paying REAL WORLD MONEY for. I would like to have the ability to take revenge by being able to file some kind of mining-dec that would allow industrial players to declare a state of operations where members of the decced corp could undock only in mining barges, exhumers, industrials, freighters, ... so as to deny them their preferred activities -- which they pay REAL WORLD MONEY to engage in -- in the same way that a wardec denies industrialists the ability to engage in our preferred activities. As the OP gains more experience he/she will clearly see that the people who post most vehemently about how EVE is a PVP game are the ones who, rather than engaging in actual combat with equals, like to shoot fish in a barrel.
A form of "Industry Dec'ing" actually isn't a bad idea. ------------------------- "Forsys > WAR Forsys > HUH Forsys > WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR Harry Sunday > loot Forsys > touchT" |
Dianeces
Buttered On The Wrong Side
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Posted - 2010.03.01 12:19:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Omega Flames
A form of "Industry Dec'ing" actually isn't a bad idea.
It is, actually, but don't let that stop you~
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.03.01 12:30:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Omega Flames A form of "Industry Dec'ing" actually isn't a bad idea.
A war dec doesn't actually stop you mining, it just makes it very risky without combat support. It also doesn't force you to fly only combat ships.
So the idea of an industry dec to force players into industrial ships is nothing like the same thing. I can't see how forcing people to bring "industrial support" could be added either, unless you have roaming asteroids that attack the PVPers and can only be taken down by hulk support.
But now we are getting silly
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Gaven Darklighter
Gallente The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2010.03.01 18:56:00 -
[155]
Yet another thread in dire need of a "check here if you don't support" box
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.03.01 21:22:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Gaven Darklighter Yet another thread in dire need of a "check here if you don't support" box
154 replies with only 6 supports. Looks pretty obvious to me.
I'm not supporting this because I like deccing and killing new players.
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Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.03.01 22:23:00 -
[157]
Originally by: James Tritanius
Originally by: Gaven Darklighter Yet another thread in dire need of a "check here if you don't support" box
154 replies with only 6 supports. Looks pretty obvious to me.
I'm not supporting this because I like deccing and killing new players.
People like this guy are the reason war deccing needs to be changed.
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.03.01 22:39:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 01/03/2010 22:39:16
Quote: Don't go afk and fall asleep inside of Jita kids
fixed and no Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG |
Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2010.03.03 03:30:00 -
[159]
Originally by: James Tritanius I'm not supporting this because I like deccing and killing new players.
The ones worth deccing are the 8 month to 1.5 year people who think they know how to PvP and fly really nice ships. Or deccing a 300 man alliance that has a nice pos and wont come to defend it.
Deccing people who can only fly frigates and cruisers is just a waste of ammo. Still, war decs are fine the way they are. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.03.03 22:42:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/02/2010 16:06:16 Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/02/2010 15:57:31 Bagehi - Thank you so much for proving to us that the art of bull****ting is not lost on PVP'ers.
I haven't laughed that hard in a long time.
Whats ridiculous is your bold faced enough to actually argue something that is obviously wrong and false.
I've known many many industrialist corporations... and they don't even pull some of the crap you even CLAIMED to do.
Argumentum ad populum.
Originally by: Drake Draconis Only corporations that do that are Greifing PVP'ers. PVP'ers don't like industry and only go so far as to make sure they have enough ISK to do whatever it is they want to do. I know very few who are actually good at both things as it is.
What you claimed are very (if at all) rare incidents and only possible when your corporation just happens to have a capable and good enough PVP force... that or you used a second corporation or hired a merc live everyone else.
Please... give it up.... we can see right through you.
Industrialist corps DO war dec competitors. Industrialist corps DO put contracts out on competitors. When an industrial corp gets large enough (requiring the ability to stave off attacks from competitors and high sec PVP corps), they attract the attention of alliances.
What you fail to realize is the biggest industrial corps are in null sec alliances. Where do you think they get all the minerals to build outposts, titans, super caps, and replace all those capital ships they lose? They don't buy them from dinky high sec industrial corps, that's for sure.
Short of a few months (when I joined two consecutive pirate corps after getting my first industrial corp bulldozed), I've been in industrial corps the entire 4 years I've played Eve.
The current corp cranks out a few dozen BSs/BCs a day and caps are built on a regular basis. Why can we do this? We also have a group of rabid PVPers in the corp who keep systems we mine clear, and keep our freighters safe.
Originally by: Drake Draconis Industrialists don't have time to "gank" freighters... What the heck kind of argument is that? You have any idea how much firepower and effort it takes to gank a freighter? Sure as hell won't be in a war-dec unless the other corproation is really that stupid!
As to ganking freighters (straw man argument)... I was showing you why PVP corps would attack an industrial corp without a contract from another industrial... when you kill a loaded freighter, you pull in a mountain of isk. YOU CAN MAKE MONEY WITH PVP. That is the point.
And I do know how much it takes to gank a freighter in high sec. The last time I was in on one, we attacked it with 19 BSs (tier 1-2). Fully fit, each lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-30m each from the difference between insurance payout and fittings. Each person received about 110m isk from the loot that was dropped and sold. That is a healthy profit for a few hours of grinding sec status and about an hour spent hunting a worthwhile target (not including the income from grinding sec status).
Originally by: Drake Draconis We don't have time to war-dec because "someone stole our omber belt". There are hundreds upon hundreds of asteroids out there... they just move on to a different system. Or move out.
Belts are less static than they used to be. As are plexes. You really don't have the systems that are end-all-be-all sources for industrialists. As such, a high sec industrialist corp should easily be able to pick up and move where the war dec becomes pointless. You have 24 hours notice for crying out loud.
Originally by: Drake Draconis
... My "personal" issue is the asshats who come up with stupid arguments...
I will ignore your ad hominem arguments.
Fix Local |
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.03.04 16:53:00 -
[161]
tHIS THREAD DELIVERS.
(Hmmm caps... I guess I'll leave it there.) -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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yourdoingitwrong
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Posted - 2010.03.04 17:43:00 -
[162]
Originally by: James Tritanius
Originally by: Gaven Darklighter Yet another thread in dire need of a "check here if you don't support" box
154 replies with only 6 supports. Looks pretty obvious to me.
Yet another +1 NOT SUPPORTED.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.03.04 21:56:00 -
[163]
Yeah wardecs are abused to the max by griefers and lamers and they need fixing. I just dont think you have the solution.
Wardecs ( mutual or otherwise ) are a valid way for corps who have a beef against each other to sort stuff out.
What I'd like to see is a wardec fee that gets exponentially more expensive the greater the difference in combat SP between the two corps.
Wardec fee = 1,000,000 x 10 ^ (( deccing corp combat sp ) / ( decced corp combat sp ))
or something similar.
So big groups of experianced pvp players would have to pay a small fortune to dec a noobie indi corp etc.
To stop large fee avoidance player cannot join a deccing corp until any wars they have declared have expired.
Oh and neutral remote reppers should get concordokkened for interfering in a legalised war.
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Arimus Darkhart
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.03.04 21:57:00 -
[164]
+1 NOT supported.
-- Users are like a virus - each causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally dies. |
Doctor Cal'torien
Gallente The Vikings of the Black Sea
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Posted - 2010.03.04 23:07:00 -
[165]
no -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Originally by: CCP Shadow
Originally by: Doctor Cal'torien in before the "OP lacks content + witty dialogue" from Shadow
*click* You just did it for me.
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Dianeces
Buttered On The Wrong Side
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Posted - 2010.03.05 00:21:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Dav Varan Yeah wardecs are abused to the max by griefers and lamers and they need fixing. I just dont think you have the solution.
Wardecs ( mutual or otherwise ) are a valid way for corps who have a beef against each other to sort stuff out.
What I'd like to see is a wardec fee that gets exponentially more expensive the greater the difference in combat SP between the two corps.
Wardec fee = 1,000,000 x 10 ^ (( deccing corp combat sp ) / ( decced corp combat sp ))
or something similar.
So big groups of experianced pvp players would have to pay a small fortune to dec a noobie indi corp etc.
To stop large fee avoidance player cannot join a deccing corp until any wars they have declared have expired.
Oh and neutral remote reppers should get concordokkened for interfering in a legalised war.
Your ideas are almost as bad as the OPs. In fact, in some ways they are worse.
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.03.05 01:47:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Dav Varan Yeah wardecs are abused to the max by griefers and lamers and they need fixing. I just dont think you have the solution.
Wardecs ( mutual or otherwise ) are a valid way for corps who have a beef against each other to sort stuff out.
What I'd like to see is a wardec fee that gets exponentially more expensive the greater the difference in combat SP between the two corps.
Wardec fee = 1,000,000 x 10 ^ (( deccing corp combat sp ) / ( decced corp combat sp ))
or something similar.
So big groups of experianced pvp players would have to pay a small fortune to dec a noobie indi corp etc.
To stop large fee avoidance player cannot join a deccing corp until any wars they have declared have expired.
Oh and neutral remote reppers should get concordokkened for interfering in a legalised war.
Your ideas are almost as bad as the OPs. In fact, in some ways they are worse.
I like how they don't actually solve anything either. I'm sure there are greifer corps who would be perfectly happy to skill up some low sp alt pilots and just do it with t1 mods and hulls instead.
Newsflash Dav, SP's are really only part of pvp, arguably not even that big of one. Certainly not the main part. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Phobos Timor
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Posted - 2010.03.10 22:42:00 -
[168]
Edited by: Phobos Timor on 10/03/2010 22:44:31 Edited by: Phobos Timor on 10/03/2010 22:44:01 While Wardeccing is a bit broken to say the least there aren't many ways it could actually be improved, still I had a couple of ideas.
1. Pay for time The Wardeccing corp has to choose how long the war will last when they declare and pay an ISK amount per day. So just for example 10mil ISK per day, so a 4 day war will cost 40mil.
2. Keeping the peace Wardec costs are just bribes to Concord to look the other way, still no matter how much you pay them there is such a thing as going too far. Leave wardecs as they are but have it so that they are void in 0.9 and 1.0 systems, after all these are highly policed and civilised systems. You can't just have people disrupting the peace by blowing each other up outside of stations. On a more practical note it would give members of a wardecced corp at least some areas that could feel vaguely safe in, bar the odd suicide gank. Of course there's not much to do in 0.9-1.0 but such is the price of safety.
On another note, unless you're just really unlucky, if your corp is falling apart due to random greifer wardecs then odds are it's failcorp, either work together to do something about it or find a new one.
-Carebear and Industrialist
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Chirjo Durruti
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.11 01:01:00 -
[169]
suggestion for fixing wardecs: pay per system. paying only 10m or so to bribe all concord officers in all hisec systems is a joke anyways. since extending to more systems must involve higher ranking concord staff, bribes should stack exponentially.
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Normin Bates
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Posted - 2010.03.11 12:48:00 -
[170]
I'll support this when, in addition to removing war declarations, they remove Concord. |
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Dianeces
Buttered On The Wrong Side
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Posted - 2010.03.11 13:01:00 -
[171]
Let the poor thread die already.
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Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari The Phoenix Enclave
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:57:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Xtover No.
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Carniflex
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.03.21 19:40:00 -
[173]
Wardeccing could use some tweaking as currently it is relatively easy to circumentvent with alts. Both on attackers as well as defenders side.
As wardec is relatively pointless activity atm it might as well removed as it's only useful atm for harassing n00bs who do not know how to use alts. Everyone else (including me) has already NPC corp freighter alts.
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Harassment Panda
Lead Farmers
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Posted - 2010.03.22 11:38:00 -
[174]
lul wut?
Nooooo
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2010.03.22 16:12:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Kilostream Edited by: Kilostream on 27/02/2010 12:02:49 To the OP,
The thing here is that war decs only lasts for a week.
My recommendation would be to train a bit of pvp skills - not too much, get everyone to spend a couple weeks on some missile / gunnery / propulsion jamming / mwd, then build yourself I dunno, 20 rifters (or similar) each and pvp fit them.
Tuck them away in a hangar and go about your mining.
When you get a war dec, treat it as a holiday from mining and go pew pew for a week - I guarantee by the time you have burned through 20 rifters each you will have made many mistakes, learnt much about pvp basics, had a good few laughs and maybe, maybe even gotten a kill.
I agree in principle, but wars are quite useless for that experience. Undock in something even faintly threatening, and the plated, station-humping command ship or BS will de-aggress and dock up. Assuming they're not playing in easy mode with neutral logistics, of course.
The thing about wardecs that doesn't work is, they're very effective against noob corps without much experience, and virtually useless against everyone else. "Hey, wardec coming in. Time to fill the shell corp / move out to lowsec / break out the NPC hauler alts."
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Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2010.03.22 17:44:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Solorman Edited by: Solorman on 20/02/2010 03:06:06
Originally by: Malen Nenokal Edited by: Malen Nenokal on 19/02/2010 23:56:00 You're an industrial corp. Hire a mercenary corporation to counter wardec the attackers. You may not have PvP prowess, but as industrialists, you can fight with your ISK.
Corp is less then 3 weeks old and you expect people to have tons of money to throw away. Also, as an mining corp if they cant mine they cant get money. So thats a great idea of paying merc corps.
Corps of noobs and mining corps are worthless anyway. People driving them to close render all members (but the often egomaniac CEO) a service, as it is likely their next corp will be something more integrated with at least a combat wing and older players to assist the younger ones.
EVE is a huge food chain, while would you position yourself in the plankton role?
If you just want to play with your RL friends guess what, a chat channel is enough, no need to make a corp. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
Daemonspirit
Redhawk Tribal Trust
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Posted - 2010.03.22 22:21:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Zonefire
Originally by: Daemonspirit Jumpin' Jehosaphat! JUST DROP CORP! You and your buddies make up a new corp, and every day a new dec comes in, drop corp to one of your other holding corps. Hell, disband corps and make new ones... Stop asking for something that already exists in game, and is supported by CCP! jesus...
This is an example of people who need to be a little more mature. Instead of just instantly dismissing issues, look at it from the other persons side.
Dude, I *totally* suck at pvp... But if I were to get war-dec'd, I'de take the minerals I've saved from all my mission running, build a couple of Ruptures/Rifters from the BPC's I have, fit them with loot I've found, and go have fun for a few days....
IF it stopped being fun, I would leave my corp in the capable hands of my alts, and just continue on.... I mean, c'mon... There are ways to get around this... and yeah, I pretty much suck @ pvp... but its not impossible either....
ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
Major PewPew
The Dark Horses
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Posted - 2010.03.23 07:32:00 -
[178]
Originally by: gwabakk Eve online is a great MMO game because it allows the players freedom of choice of what careers they want to explore. The game had a very fine balance indeed between the interests of, say, the casual miner and the hardcore combat pilots. Each and everyone was allowed its fair amount of time and space in the game to persue whatever they choose to do.
This has changed with the event or wardeccing.
Wardeccing, whatever the fair intentions where when introduced, has now become a means to score easy kills and/or easy money in high-sec at the cost of the peacefull and innocent. A combat corp can start a war at very little cost against a miner corp, which of course is not equipped to defend itself. Some people argue that miner/manufacturing corp should prepare to defend themselves but you cannot possibly expect that players that have devoted all their time and resources to mining/manufacturing to be a match to a bunch of players who have devoted all their time and resources to combat.
Furthermore, and at least as important, those miner did not come to eve to do combat, they chose a different path, because that is what they wanted, and that is what eve promised to be a valid paht when they started out. Now, with wardeccing, they are forced into a path they did not choose, and they do not whish to follow.
High-sec isn't called high-sec for nothing, but what wardeccing has effectively done is making piracy legal in high-sec. My corp, less than a month old, has already been wardecced three times, every time without a proper reason. Wardeccing has given combat corps that do not want/dare to engage their equals the perfect to tool to just attack the defenseless instead, getting easy kills perfectly legal, and all that in high-sec. That can hardly have been the intention of the designers of this game feature. Wardeccing is disabling the free choice of career paths in eve (freedom that the game was designed for), and forcing miners to quit player corps and join NPC corps instead (which eve was not designed for).
I do not propose to get rid of wardeccing, but restore the high-sec balance. When a wardec is mutual by both corps, no problem, go ahaed and fight it out. And low-sec being low-sec you should always expect being attacked. But when the wardec is not mutual, high-sec should still remain a save place, and any encounters should be concorded by the normal rules.
I know this will also disable to opportunity to start wars in high-sec even if there is a valid reason, but then again, it would also be ridicolous if you could just give the local police (Concord) some money and then can go beat them neighbours up without consequense whatsoever. High-sec is high-sec and should be properly guarded.
Bottom line: wardeccing, whatever its fair intentions were, has now become an abuse at the cost of those who justifiably have choosen a non-combat career in eve. And that abuse will have to stop. Engaging others in high-sec should always be concorded, even when the corps are at war (unless the wardec is mutual)
Regards.
Gwabakk
didnt read your post or the thread...but kindly, **** off |
Richard Christy
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Posted - 2010.03.23 14:35:00 -
[179]
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Bfoster
Wrecking Shots Hostile Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.26 18:35:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Gaven Darklighter Yet another thread in dire need of a "check here if you don't support" box
This! ------------
My Killboard- The Jerk Cartel |
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Hien Morisato
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Posted - 2010.03.28 00:38:00 -
[181]
Great idea but you need to be a little bit less one sided on this topic. On top of that members should be here to debate not simply to say "no" if you say "no" state explain your views. Personally I like the idea but it needs to have a few other changes made in order to balance it. I understand where all the combat pilots are coming from, that you are "paying" CONCORD to fight. That is absolutely true, and from a couple of the other posts they use the examples of real-life wars. Not to be the barer of bad news but no nation has ever had to pay a "World Governing Body" to go to war with another country nor have they ever had to "Formally" declare war on another country before attacking it or wait 24 hours after declaring war to attack another nation. This is after all a game not the real world so using real world examples is pointless. Now back to the idea of only allowing a corporation that is declaring war against another corporation the ability to attack in high-sec with out the declaration of war not being consensual. Again great idea just needs a little bit more balancing. For example if you look at empire space right now there is very little differences besides the fact that capital ships can't jump into high-sec, and CONCORD isn't as strong in low-sec as it is in High-sec. Well, with that in mind why couldn't CONCORD enforce the fact that a Declaration of War must be consensual for attacks to be made in High-sec. The fact is they easily could, however you would basically turn High-sec into a safe-zone. As we all know PvPers "hate" safe-zones with a passion. It would also basically turn low-sec more of a combat zone then it already is. So what would also have to be changed is the securities in low-sec. Face it Empire space is Empire space. Its roughly 1/10th the size of Null sec so why not actually give the police a set of teeth to defend that section of space. Basically make High-sec into a Safe-zone unless the Declaration of War is Mutual. Once that happens you can kill any where you wish. Low-sec gets a security increase which would make some of the high-sec missions that put you into low-sec safe again for all the PvEers. Also it would spread out the empire space players, an increase in minerals meaning cheaper ships, an increase in tech II and tech III minerals for again cheaper ships and modules. Would give the industrial corps more of a purpose in this game rather then just being "targets" or lambs to the slaughter. And for all those combat pilots the battles would be truly impressive. You would end up getting battles that had 100+ pilots. Mutual wars though both sides take losses and get kills the battles are truly epic being that "both" sides actually want to fight. How many combat corps actually spend most of they're time sitting on gate camps for a couple of kills or camping a station with 3 or 4 war targets. I know I have, and I know I've taken losses for fighting with others. It happens the trick is to "enjoy" the game. So below is the changes that would have to be made in order for this to work
1.) Low-sec would have to receive a more aggressive police force one that would actually prevent or limit ganking to the ganking force taking losses but still have the ability to run from CONCORD if needed. 2.) In order to fight with out CONCORD interference in High-sec the Declaration of War would have to be Mutual.
Now I know what the null sec guys are saying. "this will force the Gate camp pirates into Null" well it would make Null sec what its truly suppose to be "OUT-LAW" space. I'm actually working on another purposal for you guys in Null sec that will make your lives much much easier. But in the end we all know its up to CCP whether or not these requests are implemented.
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Rogue Steel
Order of the Chaotic Sewn Together Wrong
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Posted - 2010.03.28 04:58:00 -
[182]
Eve is survival of the fittest.
Starting a corp takes a certain level of responsibility. If you can't keep yourselves afloat through a war, maybe you just aren't ready to own a corp yet.
Members who are d-bags in local will attract random wardecks. If you are incapable of policing your members and maintaining recruitment standards maybe you aren't ready to own a corp yet. If the shoe fits here.
If you are wardecked, often a lil bit of diplomacy can resolve the war. If you have no RL communication skills, maybe you aren't ready to own a corp yet.
Corp members often expect a certain level of security and defense from their corp. If you are unable to provide security for your members in one way or another, maybe you aren't ready to own a corp yet.
Naming your corp 'Super Elite Turbo Mining Corp' or something similar will attract greifers. If you can't come up with a better name, maybe you aren't ready to own a corp yet.
Rogue
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Saraya Velcrow
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Posted - 2010.03.30 15:14:00 -
[183]
No but not that simple. Maby ccp could implement a way to mark your corp as a NON combat corp. so other players cannot wardec or shoot you unpunished. BUT then again your corp should be prohibited to participate in any combat situations. and denied acces to 0.0. Or some other nifty way ccp can think of. Most of the times industrial corps get wardect for the fun of it and because they can. playing eve should remain fun for EVERY player. and wardeccing a corp just for the fun of it is grieffing.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.03.30 16:27:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Saraya Velcrow No but not that simple. Maby ccp could implement a way to mark your corp as a NON combat corp. so other players cannot wardec or shoot you unpunished. BUT then again your corp should be prohibited to participate in any combat situations. and denied acces to 0.0. Or some other nifty way ccp can think of. Most of the times industrial corps get wardect for the fun of it and because they can. playing eve should remain fun for EVERY player. and wardeccing a corp just for the fun of it is grieffing.
WoW is that way ----->
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.03.30 17:45:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Saraya Velcrow No but not that simple. Maby ccp could implement a way to mark your corp as a NON combat corp. so other players cannot wardec or shoot you unpunished. BUT then again your corp should be prohibited to participate in any combat situations. and denied acces to 0.0. Or some other nifty way ccp can think of. Most of the times industrial corps get wardect for the fun of it and because they can. playing eve should remain fun for EVERY player. and wardeccing a corp just for the fun of it is grieffing.
<-------- Leave corp button is that way
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Daemonspirit
Redhawk Tribal Trust
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Posted - 2010.03.30 23:02:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Saraya Velcrow and wardeccing a corp just for the fun of it is grieffing.
Wish I could find the quote, but wardeccing isn't considered griefing by CCP. Even if your war-decc'r follows you around as you jump corp and wardecs every corp you make/join for the next year...
As long as there is *any* point to it (and all the dec'r has to say, really is: "He smack talked me...") CCP won't do anything about it.
So make your shell corps, and bounce corp (if you seriously don't want to fight) every 23 hours....
ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
Jerid Verges
Gallente The Society of Innovation The Last Stand
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Posted - 2010.03.30 23:38:00 -
[187]
Why is this still being discussed? Please people. Stop posting in this thread. I am tired of seeing it on the main page.
OP is dumb. We knew that before we even entered the thread.
/Case closed.
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Leilani Masters
The Ladies Corporation
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Posted - 2010.04.02 17:19:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer I sympathize with the OP because I believe that there is something wrong when cowardly griefers -- and they are most definitely cowards or they'd be attacking someone of equal skill rather than shooting fish in a barrel by wardeccing newbs and industrialists -- can force people to not play the game that they are paying REAL WORLD MONEY for.
Thanks for sympathizing with us people who are trying to make a living, but cannot because of some griefers. I will tell you what I mean: I have been wardecced for the 3rd time by the same corp, and for the last 3 months I haven't been able to do anything, because they are on my tail every single time. I already shut down one account, because CCP refuses to do anything. They say it's game mechanics. Well, I'm sorry, but I call this plain HARASSMENT!
Can't there be a maximum of wardecs that come from one corp or something?
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Gabrielle Lamb
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Posted - 2010.04.03 02:22:00 -
[189]
Originally by: gwabakk Allow me to stress again my basic argument: there are people in eve who prefer to do combat, and there are those who prefer to do other things. Both groups have every and equal rights to play eve the way they like to play it. But their interest conflict sometimes, and a lot of eve game mechanics is about balancing those interests. That is why we have high-sec, low-sec, null-sec, concord et all. Eve has done a great job in that, but wardeccing is now upsetting the fine balance to much in favour of those who want to shoot others.
And that is why the wardeccing mechanics needs changing, to bing back the balance.
There are countless options available for you in order to get out of the whole wardec mess.
Best one is to just get youre asses out of highsec and into 0.0, im sure there's plenty of alliances that would gladly invite a mining corp so they could buy ore off you instead of hauling it from jita to 0.0. |
Kuar Z'thain
Fraser's Finest
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Posted - 2010.04.09 14:34:00 -
[190]
Wow, 11 supporting posts out of 188.
Pretty sure the consensus is "GB2WOW".
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Jag Kara
United Investment
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Posted - 2010.04.10 01:01:00 -
[191]
I dont think it needs to go this far, but it certainly shouldnt be so cheap to get free kills in high sec. I would support a cost increase. In Soviet Russia, carebears gank YOU! |
Ahsekuaw
Brother Theo's Monastery The Ancients.
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Posted - 2010.04.10 18:19:00 -
[192]
Not supported. I've no problems with decs in high sec.
I would however, like to see the mechanic modified. I'd like to see the costs of the non mutual decs double in price weekely to limit the perma decs.
Ahs
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Manalapan
Dynasty Banking General Tso's Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:18:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Leilani Masters
Thanks for sympathizing with us people who are trying to make a living, but cannot because of some griefers. I will tell you what I mean: I have been wardecced for the 3rd time by the same corp, and for the last 3 months I haven't been able to do anything, because they are on my tail every single time. I already shut down one account, because CCP refuses to do anything. They say it's game mechanics. Well, I'm sorry, but I call this plain HARASSMENT!
Can't there be a maximum of wardecs that come from one corp or something?
Maybe you shouldn't make it worth their time to wardec you? Do you talk to them during the war? Beg them to stop? Pay them to stop?
If you answered yes to any of those questions then they are most definitely enjoying themselves. Support Manalapan for CSM!
We must stand together against the oppressive neo-carebears. A vote for Manalapan is a vote for Scammers and Griefers everywhere!
[url="http://www.dyco-eve.com/manalap |
Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:49:00 -
[194]
absolutely not
though the whole war dec mechanics could always be improved upon
"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." |
Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2010.04.10 23:07:00 -
[195]
Edited by: Lubomir Penev on 10/04/2010 23:10:26
Originally by: Saraya Velcrow No but not that simple. Maby ccp could implement a way to mark your corp as a NON combat corp. so other players cannot wardec or shoot you unpunished. BUT then again your corp should be prohibited to participate in any combat situations. and denied acces to 0.0. Or some other nifty way ccp can think of. Most of the times industrial corps get wardect for the fun of it and because they can. playing eve should remain fun for EVERY player. and wardeccing a corp just for the fun of it is grieffing.
Yup, no mission for them. No shooting the rats attacking their barges either. Can't have it both ways.
Edit: Can't anchor POS, nor participate in planetary interaction either obviously.
Quote:
I have been wardecced for the 3rd time by the same corp, and for the last 3 months I haven't been able to do anything, because they are on my tail every single time.
Why don't you join a NPC corp, you obviously can't handle a player corp. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
Hien Morisato
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Posted - 2010.04.14 22:10:00 -
[196]
lol forgot to click the support button so tack another thumbs up to the short list lol.
Also Ladies and Gents put away your pitch forks and torches I doubt CCP will change anything when it comes to wardeccing any time soon but its always nice to discuss challenge and improve upon an idea that might make both the War deccer and War Deccee's lives better.
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Tibalt Avalon
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2010.04.15 01:02:00 -
[197]
Go find a whole and bury yourself.
War decking everyone in support of this thread. Hardstyle Ambassador |
Alun Hughes
The Dark Horses WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.04.15 12:06:00 -
[198]
OP is terrible and I If he posted with his main i would dec him.
Avoid war decs.. Keep a low profile dont talk in local at all. Who wants to bet they were posting recruitment ads in local
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lookatzebirdie
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Posted - 2010.04.15 13:49:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Leilani Masters
Originally by: Amberlyn Stardreamer I sympathize with the OP because I believe that there is something wrong when cowardly griefers -- and they are most definitely cowards or they'd be attacking someone of equal skill rather than shooting fish in a barrel by wardeccing newbs and industrialists -- can force people to not play the game that they are paying REAL WORLD MONEY for.
Thanks for sympathizing with us people who are trying to make a living, but cannot because of some griefers. I will tell you what I mean: I have been wardecced for the 3rd time by the same corp, and for the last 3 months I haven't been able to do anything, because they are on my tail every single time. I already shut down one account, because CCP refuses to do anything. They say it's game mechanics. Well, I'm sorry, but I call this plain HARASSMENT!
Can't there be a maximum of wardecs that come from one corp or something?
Why do some people fail to understand that paying for an online game gives you the right to access said game, not have it altered so you can cope with it. It's not harrasment, it's Eve, that's what it is meant to be, if you don't like it you should stop playing.
I wouldn't expect the devs of hello kitty to allow me to attack whomever I choose just because i pay a sub, it's not that kind of game, I come here because EvE is that kind of game.
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Tiffany Jane
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Posted - 2010.04.16 03:03:00 -
[200]
A quick note to the OP (and anybody else who feels griefed by a wardec) - some corps enjoy picking fights with pansy bullies and will wardec them for the small fee of simply asking (ie, just ask and I'll see what the others in my corp think). Short of that, many will do it if you simply pay the wardec fee (can be as little as 6m per week).
(Further discussion beyond the "quick note" follows)
All game mechanics in EVE have one thing in common, no matter how unfair they may seem, and that is to encourage player interaction and cooperation.
I was wondering why the rules about stealing from a container were so unfair in that it allows a miner (in a mining barge/cruiser) to attack the combat pilot (in a combat ship) who is stealing from them (yeah, like that's an option). What I realised was that if you mine in a group with haulers, not only is it more efficient (more ISKies), it makes it very difficult for anybody to can-flip you - the mechanic encourages players to work together.
The same goes for wardecs. Form a relationship with a combat corp which is mutually beneficial - perhaps you supply them with a regular amount of T1 frigs/cruisers/BCs in return for them wardeccing anybody who wardecs you (they may or may not drop the wardec when the griefers back down). You may not be able to mine during wardecs, and therefore won't be supplying ships, but most combat oriented corps will understand this.
This is a social MMO. Many MMOs are criticised for being massively single player - in EVE you can always come to an arrangement with players outside any implemented game mechanic.
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JShepard
Caldari Imperial Syndicate Forces Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.04.16 04:23:00 -
[201]
IIRC, it's High-Sec, not Total-Sec, dumbass.
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Seamus Donohue
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Posted - 2010.04.20 05:48:00 -
[202]
I support the original post in principle, though I don't know if the exact implementation proposed is the best way to go about it. A corporation should still be able to wardec another corporation in response to habitual canflipping, for example. |
lookatzebirdie
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Posted - 2010.04.20 09:05:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Seamus Donohue I support the original post in principle, though I don't know if the exact implementation proposed is the best way to go about it. A corporation should still be able to wardec another corporation in response to habitual canflipping, for example.
lol.. so ur saying carebear corps should still have the facility of wardecs but those filthy can flipping griefers should not ? ur worse than the OP
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Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb
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Posted - 2010.04.20 10:46:00 -
[204]
Reducing war-decs to mutual only is a preposterous idea.
All of your arguments are based on your ill-assumption that players in hi-sec space should be 100% safe and that EVE is not a PvP game.
News flash: EVE is a deep, dark and nasty PvP game and not WoW, FarmVille or any other soft and fluffy game.
You need a combat arm of your industrial corp and/or learn to evade war decs instead of coming on the forums, whining about changing the game for the worse because you cannot play it.
Pro-Tip: Learn to EVE!
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NereSky
Gallente Maelstrom Crew Paradigm Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.20 10:55:00 -
[205]
God no - you just dont get Eve do you!
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ITTigerClawIK
Amarr Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
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Posted - 2010.04.20 20:28:00 -
[206]
i dont think any rant could says what i want to say more than this little clip from Scrubs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zNjQecyjE8
Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected]) |
Hien Morisato
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Posted - 2010.04.22 20:31:00 -
[207]
lol video clip was great, and sorry OP don't think this is gonna make it. oh well life goes on.....and just a quick question....why does everyone compare this game to WoW when they don't like an idea.....I mean I aggree with ya WoW does suck lol but I'm sure you can pull another game out to compare it too like I don't know....maplestory....or Ultima.....or ooo ooo Galaxy Wars lol I totally googled that while I was writing this lol and if ya'll wanna play a rough game try Neveron but yeah lol WoW has something like 3million patrons vs what 500thousand that Eve has so yeah....WoW still sucks lol
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Dengen Krastinov
Amarr Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.04.29 07:40:00 -
[208]
Absolutely no. Your idea is misguided.
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Vlad McCain
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Posted - 2010.04.29 20:34:00 -
[209]
Edited by: Vlad McCain on 29/04/2010 20:41:20 even tho everyone else threw in their 2 isk, im going to throw in some to. 1st op is an alt? 2nd ive been mostly industrial and pve in my time here. and wardecks are part of the game. there are corps/alliances out there that will teach you how to fight, or dock up, or move.
if you want to mine in relative security, there is this new mechanic called wormholes. you'll still will need to keep an eye out since it -is- nullsec space.
not supported
oh and just one other thing, eve isnt an -only- pvp game.
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Dianeces
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.04.29 21:32:00 -
[210]
Please, for the love of everything that is good in this world, let this abomination of a thread die.
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Richard Christy
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Posted - 2010.04.30 11:27:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Dianeces Please, for the love of everything that is good in this world, let this abomination of a thread die.
Okay.
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Pseudo Sasaya
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Posted - 2010.04.30 16:26:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Tiffany Jane
All game mechanics in EVE have one thing in common, no matter how unfair they may seem, and that is to encourage player interaction and cooperation.
Here I disagree. EVE has too many features that discourage player interaction, and hi-sec wardecs are one of them. I guess in theory they are supposed to get people to band together in larger groups or join a bigger corp (which fits CCP's idea that bigger is more impressive, so I would agree that they are trying to encourage people into the largest groups possible) , but in reality they just discourage people from forming player corps in the first place since such corps really only have the advantage of interaction yet the disadvantage of wardeccing. Player corps simply do not have enough point to them to offset the negative in many cases.
A similar example would be the fleet mechanic. Fleeting removes concord protection, so it becomes a very 'all or nothing' thing.. so no fleeting with strangers, no helping newbies, no casual throw together groups that might eventually become a unit or corp.
So no.. wardecs do not help interaction or cooperation, they hurt it. It could even be argued that they serve no purpose other then harrassment when it comes to hi-sec. After all, there are no resources to actually fight over, no territory, nothing. They are just a way to 'get at those carebares' and encourage people to either join a larger group or go back to an NPC corp.
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ShahFluffers
Gallente Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.04.30 17:09:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Pseudo Sasaya
Here I disagree. EVE has too many features that discourage player interaction, and hi-sec wardecs are one of them. I guess in theory they are supposed to get people to band together in larger groups or join a bigger corp (which fits CCP's idea that bigger is more impressive, so I would agree that they are trying to encourage people into the largest groups possible) , but in reality they just discourage people from forming player corps in the first place since such corps really only have the advantage of interaction yet the disadvantage of wardeccing. Player corps simply do not have enough point to them to offset the negative in many cases.
The fact that people would rather jump corp to avoid such "forced interaction" rather than fight back and protect their creation(s) smacks of problems regarding the player(s) and not the system. You correctly pointed out that by being in a corp you have the advantage of interaction. How you utilize this is almost impossible to measure. You can share intel, rally to corp into a fleet, talk about what ships you found to be most effective, etc.
A war dec is only a disadvantage if you don't like to fight other people at all.
Originally by: Pseudo Sasaya
Fleeting removes concord protection, so it becomes a very 'all or nothing' thing.. so no fleeting with strangers, no helping newbies, no casual throw together groups that might eventually become a unit or corp.
They changed this mechanic some time ago. As it stands right now, you will go GCC if you shoot at a non-corp fleetmember.
Originally by: Pseudo Sasaya
So no.. wardecs do not help interaction or cooperation, they hurt it. It could even be argued that they serve no purpose other then harrassment when it comes to hi-sec. After all, there are no resources to actually fight over, no territory, nothing. They are just a way to 'get at those carebares' and encourage people to either join a larger group or go back to an NPC corp.
See... you assuming there is NOTHING you can do if some "big, bad, mean, pvp corp" war decs you. God forbid you engage in actual diplomacy (i.e. getting the balls to convo and hash things out with your adversary without resorting to insults and questions regarding their mental health) or gear up and fight back. In the latter case, having numbers and being part of a larger group is a GOOD thing. You just need to organize it a bit so you don't ALL go up in balls of fire.
Truth be told, if people can't handle the idea that they HAVE to interact with other people [in some capacity] and that they CAN be forced into situations which might not be to their liking, they shouldn't be playing MMOs. _______________________
"Just because I look like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.05.12 05:05:00 -
[214]
bump
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Killer Gandry
Caldari TerraNovae
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Posted - 2010.05.12 13:36:00 -
[215]
A big no.
Make changes to wardecs. Put conditions in them for winning or losing or something like that.
Mutual wardeccing is a stupid idea for the sole reason that everyone can avoid a wardec then.
My only agreement is that declaring wars as it is now is a crap game mechanic.
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Tarsas Phage
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Posted - 2010.05.14 20:43:00 -
[216]
Edited by: Tarsas Phage on 14/05/2010 20:49:15 For those who are for this idea, what you're really wishing for is a standalone EVE game to play off your computer's hard drive, where anything and everything around you is not human and can be controlled by difficulty levels and whatnot. If that's what you want, there are plenty of other environments out there which offer you that control.
When one purchases an EVE account, that purchase should be made with the realization that you're buying into the EVE environment and all it can entail, right? You did your homework before committing, right? It seems that many people come in with the expectation that they'll exist in their own bubble and any external human-human interaction will be made on their own terms. When that expectation is shattered, we get RL emo threads like this one.
So, to sum that up: You bought into EVE, thus you should have been aware of what can happen once you do so. If you weren't, then that's no one else's fault but your own. You are not a ship passing in the night, and no one else is, either. EVE is what it is, and if that's orthogonal to what you desire, then perhaps you're playing for the wrong reasons.
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Tarsas Phage
Just Us Guys In Space
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Posted - 2010.05.14 21:06:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Killer Gandry
Make changes to wardecs. Put conditions in them for winning or losing or something like that.
We already have those, and those are thankfully user-dictated, and options may be pursued by either side and at will:
1) Pay a nominal undec'ing fee. Dec'er result:
2) Get good at hiding. Dec'er result: or
3) Respond with force that will make the dec'ers realize they underestimated you. Dec'er result:
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menacemyth
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Posted - 2010.05.15 08:45:00 -
[218]
Edited by: menacemyth on 15/05/2010 08:50:06 Edited by: menacemyth on 15/05/2010 08:49:18 A thread like this only makes immature people stand out more!
Truth be told, this game is one of the very few that offer a pure pvp experience. However, it's true that Concord has been asleep at the wheel for a long time.
With experience war-deccing becomes a nusance at best, so get used to it. I do believe that CCP should change it to make the up-front cost of war-deccing hurt a little more. Corps and alliances like privateers make way too much isk from war-deccing for current up-front cost to matter. Ever wonder why you get war-decced but it never lasts more than a week or two?
Honestly the bigger problem is with pirates who fit a cheap BS, insure it, and make tons of isk killing people they're not at war with. Sure you get a security status hit, but who cares? Security status means jack anymore.
I say if your security status is below -5 your KOS to everyone in hisec and concord just watches, no sec status hits result. edited If your sec status is 0 to -4.9 players are free to egress you in lowsec without gate-gun intervention.
Make those players pirating in hisec either do a fair amount of faction work to maintain it, or be forced to recycle their toons, or just play pvp style everywhere.
Otherwise let's just fire concord, call it all 0.0 because that's what it's become.
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Raukho
Evoke. Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.05.15 10:27:00 -
[219]
no
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Dianeces
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.05.15 11:06:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Dianeces Please, for the love of everything that is good in this world, let this abomination of a thread die.
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The Grouch
FinFleet IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.15 21:10:00 -
[221]
It might be worth pointing out that Eve Online is one of the only MMORPGs which totally supports the sort of gratuitous griefing which you are currently having a problem with. This results in two things. First, individuals who enjoy this sort of gameplay (the "non-consentual" types) usually find their way to eve via the usual methods: banned from other games, left other games due to reputation, etc. Secondly, these same individuals tend to go overboard on the griefing, especially if the consequences for said actions are lacking.
That being said, you're in a tough spot. Because I doubt CCP is going to change non-consentual pvp. Not because they think its funny when you're ridiculed and abused to the point where you can't log in, but because changing it would break the physical game mechanics of combat in EVE. Remember, NPC pirates engage you "non-consentually" as well.
Personally, I feel that griefing has seriously tarnished this game's previous levels of awesome. There is a difference between pirates and griefers. Lastly, I would just like to point out that I have caught a number of people using WOW references to their griefing, which only substantiates my theory that many of said griefers are actually "immigrants" to eve.
However, wardecs are unique and give small corps a chance to get their feet wet in combat, and FYI wardecs are never mutual, because making someone PAY for war is another form of isk attrition.
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Funky Johnson
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Posted - 2010.05.16 01:23:00 -
[222]
Instead of changing the way wardecs work, why not give industrialists a way to fight back that is more becoming of their chosen path?
For example you could make all products, resources and products made by those resources which are put into the market by a wardecc'd corp and their alliance off limits to the opposing corp and their alliance(ie un-fittable, or fittable but you run the risk of concord attack despite your bribe). Perhaps this could be obtainable by a similar bribe to concord. For a small corp, this would seem useless since your products represent a very small portion of the total market or may not affect a combat oriented corp at all. However, this would encourage small industrial corps to join large alliances so that it would more likely make an impact on the aggressors. Furthermore, since this also affects the aggressor's alliance, the product ban might give the antagonizing corp some political considerations.
Worst case scenario? The aggressors and their alliance have other sources or are self sufficient and the ban does nothing. But at the very least it requires the wardeccing corp to think about, and prepare for, a few more factors before they wardec a small corp for no real reason but to get their jollies. Also, it encourages these smaller corps to work together, and who knows? Maybe they'll find out it's fun, consolidate some of those smaller corps, and end up with a larger, richer, and better prepared corp at the end.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.16 08:45:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Funky Johnson Instead of changing the way wardecs work, why not give industrialists a way to fight back that is more becoming of their chosen path?
For example you could make all products, resources and products made by those resources which are put into the market by a wardecc'd corp and their alliance off limits to the opposing corp and their alliance(ie un-fittable, or fittable but you run the risk of concord attack despite your bribe). Perhaps this could be obtainable by a similar bribe to concord. For a small corp, this would seem useless since your products represent a very small portion of the total market or may not affect a combat oriented corp at all. However, this would encourage small industrial corps to join large alliances so that it would more likely make an impact on the aggressors. Furthermore, since this also affects the aggressor's alliance, the product ban might give the antagonizing corp some political considerations.
Worst case scenario? The aggressors and their alliance have other sources or are self sufficient and the ban does nothing. But at the very least it requires the wardeccing corp to think about, and prepare for, a few more factors before they wardec a small corp for no real reason but to get their jollies. Also, it encourages these smaller corps to work together, and who knows? Maybe they'll find out it's fun, consolidate some of those smaller corps, and end up with a larger, richer, and better prepared corp at the end.
So if a corp produces Veldspar, then their attackers cant use ships and modules?
Seriously, this is the worst idea I've ever seen, and given that Emo TJ posts on this forum, that's quite an acheivement.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.05.16 16:42:00 -
[224]
Originally by: The Grouch It might be worth pointing out that Eve Online is one of the only MMORPGs which totally supports the sort of gratuitous griefing which you are currently having a problem with. This results in two things. First, individuals who enjoy this sort of gameplay (the "non-consentual" types) usually find their way to eve via the usual methods: banned from other games, left other games due to reputation, etc. Secondly, these same individuals tend to go overboard on the griefing, especially if the consequences for said actions are lacking.
(...) Personally, I feel that griefing has seriously tarnished this game's previous levels of awesome. There is a difference between pirates and griefers.
The root issue, IMHO, lies with CCP's over-romantacised notion of PvP. Yes, these know it's harsh, but at the same time shroud themselves in the illusion that it's all about bonding, glorious battles, good learning experiences, etc. The reality, of course, is that any thread of honor (CCP: stop censoring a perfectly legit word like modi**** Kinda makes you look illiterate) is far to be found in EVE. I have yet to see a mechanism that isn't being abused by pirates and griefers. Naturally, they don't see it as 'abusing.' To them, whatever they can get away with is a valid game mechanic. Wardeccing is one of those areas where CCP must have envisioned fun ways to do PvP in high-sec. Yet, here too, for the most part it's just low lives preying on noob corps. Funny that is: although honor is a rare commodity, if it were ever put on the market, it would still be dirt-cheap, as nobody seems to wants it.
The problem, of course, is that you cannot simply outlaw wardecs in high-sec; nor can you make them so it's a mutual thing. Frankly, the latter is really one of the most stupid suggestions I've ever come across here.
Mr. H: "Can we declare war on you guys?" Churchill: "Um, ... NO!" :)
LOL. Seriously, in pointing out genuine issues, people tend to get too carebear overboard in their proposals to deal with them. Whilst I'm a carebear too, let's keep it real, okay?
--
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Eva Glentis
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Posted - 2010.05.16 17:07:00 -
[225]
i was think about righting up a detailed description of what is wrong with your statement about mutual war decs. But i do not want to feed the Troll. Go back to playing WoW tbh
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Hien Morisato
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Posted - 2010.05.16 17:14:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Funky Johnson Instead of changing the way wardecs work, why not give industrialists a way to fight back that is more becoming of their chosen path?
For example you could make all products, resources and products made by those resources which are put into the market by a wardecc'd corp and their alliance off limits to the opposing corp and their alliance(ie un-fittable, or fittable but you run the risk of concord attack despite your bribe). Perhaps this could be obtainable by a similar bribe to concord. For a small corp, this would seem useless since your products represent a very small portion of the total market or may not affect a combat oriented corp at all. However, this would encourage small industrial corps to join large alliances so that it would more likely make an impact on the aggressors. Furthermore, since this also affects the aggressor's alliance, the product ban might give the antagonizing corp some political considerations.
Worst case scenario? The aggressors and their alliance have other sources or are self sufficient and the ban does nothing. But at the very least it requires the wardeccing corp to think about, and prepare for, a few more factors before they wardec a small corp for no real reason but to get their jollies. Also, it encourages these smaller corps to work together, and who knows? Maybe they'll find out it's fun, consolidate some of those smaller corps, and end up with a larger, richer, and better prepared corp at the end.
Funky gotta say good idea but you should really start up a purposal with it rather then adding it to the discussion on this one being that it sounds more like an embargo or trade ban idea. You can't however stop someone from fitting something they already purchased however you can force them to stop purchasing items produced by your corp or alliance however its a double edged sword. By proventing them from purchasing items from your corp or alliance you provent your corp for possibly making isk. You could say this was the industrial side of the war-dec. Once a griefer corp or alliance builds up a rep enough industrial corps will have trade bans on them that they won't be able to purchase they're ships and modules lol sounds a little more effective then hiding in a station or paying for a merc to come in and help lol. Though other corps could band together and put the same thing towards an industrial corp in so doing causing that industrial corp to fold being that they can't sell they're product like I said double edged sword. send me a private message in game would like to talk to you about this and possibly have you post it on here for CSM consideration.
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Flippington Bigboy
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Posted - 2010.05.17 04:00:00 -
[227]
Nope -this would ruin of of the things that makes Eve so good. Space is not (and never should be) totally safe, wherever you are.
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Frater Sen
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Posted - 2010.05.17 17:20:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Wacktopia News flash: EVE is a deep, dark and nasty PvP game and not WoW, FarmVille or any other soft and fluffy game.
Wrong. Eve isnt a PvP game, its about ganking players with the wrong fittings / ships.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.05.17 18:04:00 -
[229]
This has to be the crappiest idea I have seen to date here!
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2010.05.17 18:07:00 -
[230]
Originally by: ShahFluffers
The fact that people would rather jump corp to avoid such "forced interaction" rather than fight back and protect their creation(s) smacks of problems regarding the player(s) and not the system. You correctly pointed out that by being in a corp you have the advantage of interaction. How you utilize this is almost impossible to measure. You can share intel, rally to corp into a fleet, talk about what ships you found to be most effective, etc.
A war dec is only a disadvantage if you don't like to fight other people at all.
You can get interaction by just setting up a mutual chat channel. And you seem to be saying that the war-deccer is in it for a good fight. An abundance of station humping plated battleships and neutral Guardians seem to disagree with you.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.05.17 18:26:00 -
[231]
Originally by: ShahFluffers
The fact that people would rather jump corp to avoid such "forced interaction" rather than fight back and protect their creation(s) smacks of problems regarding the player(s) and not the system. You correctly pointed out that by being in a corp you have the advantage of interaction. How you utilize this is almost impossible to measure. You can share intel, rally to corp into a fleet, talk about what ships you found to be most effective, etc.
A war dec is only a disadvantage if you don't like to fight other people at all.
Wait, you are sitting in a nice, safe station and complaining because there are bad guys outside who want to kill you off and on for a week? You realize the undock button is an option right? You don't have to press it. Additionally, this is a reoccurring theme throughout Eve, no matter how big and bad you, your corp, your alliance, or your coalition gets.
Here's the deal. These "little corp gets dec'd by small PVP corp" things are part of learning the game (that learning cliff is because this game is different than what you are used to playing).
You have to live through war decs a few times to lose the "I am a god among ants" attitude drilled into people in single player games (and in many of the other PVE-centric MMO games). Eve is about connections and cooperation. Connections take time to develop, but there is a satisfaction that comes from them far greater than mining an asteroid. Cooperation can be achieved almost instantly in the game.
Don't cry about the lesson being unfair, learn from the lesson and you will grow.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Zonefire
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Posted - 2010.05.19 03:02:00 -
[232]
Quote:
Don't cry about the lesson being unfair, learn from the lesson and you will grow.
Usually if lessons are unfair you ca get the instructor fired. Can we do that to eve people?
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.05.19 03:54:00 -
[233]
NO!
You might as well scrap the game altogether if proposals like this are allowed to fly.
Or have I been trolled again? Seems likely. ______________________ Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.05.23 18:07:00 -
[234]
Bookmarking this for future reference.
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Neo Gabriel
Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.23 19:08:00 -
[235]
How about this:
Use an alt to create a Shell alliance for your peaceful corp of miners.
Use an alt to create ANOTHER Shell alliance, but leave it empty for now (except for alt anchors).
Get wardecced.
Switch your corporation to the OTHER alliance.
Repeat as necessary.
It is best to have many alt corps and alliances to keep hopping to avoid wardecs and force the griefers to waste extra money for nothing. They will get the message and go away.
You can keep your budies on the address book and talk to them on a private restricted channel and work just like a corp while you keep hopping corps. When your group has grown strong enough you can all coalesce into an alliance of small corps and permanently stay there if you believe to be strong enough to fight back. And if you can really fight back griefers go away because all they want is easy kills.
High-sec wardeccing is just a big griefing toll that more experienced players use to grief noobs. There is no chance of a fair fight and neutral logistics just tops it all off as a borked game mechanic.
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Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari The Phoenix Enclave Astro Lux Aedificatiae
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Posted - 2010.05.23 23:01:00 -
[236]
No. And on the off-chance that this proposal is ever implemented I and many others will unsubscribe. And no, you cannot have my stuff.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.05.26 13:59:00 -
[237]
Originally by: fivetide humidyear Edited by: fivetide humidyear on 24/02/2010 13:28:50
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sokratesz Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. ... enjoying an iceland trip off of your sub money atm ... Also drake, being csm doesn¦t prevent me from laughing at stupid ideas. ...
This is totally why I voted for Sok. And I'll do it next time too.
-Liang
I'd just like to quote this for it being the same reason Sok got my vote.
also, the lack of support in this thread warms the ****les of my (war deccing) heart.
Thank you gentlemen!
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.26 14:43:00 -
[238]
However, now that you have been re-elected I hope you will support a war-dec and bounty hunting reform...
Reform, by the way not nerf, not removal, not crippling.
The current war-dec system is a joke. The bounty system is so bad that it isn't even funny. Textwall incoming soon.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.05.26 15:28:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Malcanis However, now that you have been re-elected I hope you will support a war-dec and bounty hunting reform...
Reform, by the way not nerf, not removal, not crippling.
The current war-dec system is a joke. The bounty system is so bad that it isn't even funny. Textwall incoming soon.
Having been well-trained by virtuozzo, I am looking forward to your WOT.
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Dominar Solon
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.05.27 02:51:00 -
[240]
NO.
War Decs kill corps that wont protect themselves. If there was no wardecing without the other party agreeing who would wardec? This separated the wheat from the chaff, those who can lead and made a good corp will prevail those who don't well they don't last long and that is fortunate.
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Synthmilk
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Posted - 2010.05.27 05:20:00 -
[241]
I am not sure if it is in one of the Chronicles or in the EVE Apocrypha novel that I read this, but as the story goes all wardecs are looked at by a CONCORD official (or group of officials) to see if they should be allowed, or not.
Now, it seems to me, that the current officials are either asleep with their foreheads on the "Allow Wardec" button, or they are/have been bought off to allow all wardecs.
So the fix is simple: Replace the current officials with new ones who must pass a revised test to see if they are fit for the position (as the current process for selection is obviously faulty), and appoint an oversight committee to further guard against corruption of this specific group.
Capsuleers are demigods, not gods, they have limits, and those limits are imposed and enforced by CONCORD. Wardecs were never intended to be the free pass they are now.
Before anyone pipes up about the so-called "fee", that fee is only to submit your wardec and to continue hostilities, assuming hostilities are permitted, it does NOT guarantee that your wardec will be allowed.
But, considering how big the hole the Quality Assurance department must fill in, courtesy of the Tyrannis Dev team, I doubt they have any spare personnel to fill these roles, so even if my idea is workable, I'm not expecting it to be implemented....well, ever. |
Ovella
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Posted - 2010.05.27 06:55:00 -
[242]
I don't mind it as long as CONCORD is removed along with non-mutual wardecs. |
Cpt Nebulon
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Posted - 2010.05.27 07:35:00 -
[243]
Look did it ever occur to any of these care bears that some other care bear group wanted to care bear in the area you guys got to first?? And so they hired someone to make your life a pain???
IÆm sick of people crying about war deckÆs and anyone that says this game is not a pvp game truly does not understand the overall driving force of this game.
Everything in this game form the market Indy side of live is driven by the pvp demand in one form or another. Look I have a few friends that care bear all day and I felt bad when they got stuck in a crap situation and had no way to defend their stash...
But ya know itÆs hard to be too sympathetic considering they all have billions and the thought of paying someone else to defend them or spending money on anything other than there miner stuff is just not acceptable to them. You need to figure out how to do business, this factor has been around for quite some time, and others have figured out how to deal with it. Is it really that hard to try and work together and practice some pvp to defend yourself?
You have so much money compared to the avg pvpÆr and while 1vs1 you might not be as well most Indy groups are far more organized, however their lack of experience makes them panic and the factor of loss is just too great to them.
Look crying in the forums about how you canÆt stand getting killed because chances are high that the first few times you got targeted you cried and became a favored target by many mercs.. learn to read between the lines and figure out a tactic crying about it just makes you look bad / weak and now I hope more mercs will come find you and hunt you out as you have placed a giant bulls eye on your name.
Like some others said join an alliance.. figure out how to find like minded people who have figured out what you have not.. basic pvp skills donÆt require months upon months of training or practice.. the time it took you to write your posts you could have been reading a few pirate guides on pvp and tactics and target picking
There is so much you can do aside from cry so try maybe asking for help on concepts.. such as hay guys I have been decked so many times and I really donÆt know how to stop from being a target.. OR.. MOVE!!! Find a better place thatÆs not in super care bear area... but ooo... you might have to find a different way to do things and hay you like were your at why should anyone else have a chance to do what your doing you were there first.. screw them .. o wait.. they paid someone to run us out of town .. screw you cry baby
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Silchius Ruin
Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2010.05.27 12:44:00 -
[244]
Sometimes you have to wonder if people think before they talk/write.
This idea is flawed in so many ways it is not funny. When has War ever been consensual?
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.05.27 13:23:00 -
[245]
I'd like this to be taken 1 step further.
I propose that PPL wishing to get back into Empire and who are traveling through 0.0 and lowsec to get there should also be immune to Bubbles, gatecamps and every other form of agression due to the fact it isn't mutual!
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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