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CrashM
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Posted - 2010.04.12 20:48:00 -
[31]
IMO almost all cloaks are absolutly fine. I'm all for Cov Ops sitting around collecting intel.
It is only the SB cloak that is too powerful. An SB can take down a hulk with no problem in 0.0 (especally if the hulk is fitted for the local rats).
1 Semi-AFK SB can easily take a 0.0 systems indy level down in a few days with no way to counter this. They arnt much of a threat to the ratting cause most ratting ships can tank a SB long enough to call for help or take out the SB (unless the SB has good timeing).
I know all you griefing pilots keep saying "cloaks nerf ships too much to be harmful" but for SBs that is not the case. Cloaks dont nerf SBs in any way shape or form. And for a miner there are no way to counter them other than risking a 150mil isk hulk to try and trap them.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:00:00 -
[32]
bait hulk ... i was working on that during hulkageddon. this thing has 27k EHP. that might survive a bomb or two ;) put a cloaked dictor next to you and wait.
Quote:
[Hulk, doh] Damage Control II Reinforced Bulkheads II
Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Mining Drone II x5
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Solostrom
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:40:00 -
[33]
Darius... dammit this is my thread! OP is ****ed that I'm AFK cloaked... except for the Hulk, Raven, and Vindicator that I killed while I wasn't afk... or was I afk? It gets confusing! GTFO my thread ;)
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:48:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Solostrom Darius... dammit this is my thread! OP is ****ed that I'm AFK cloaked... except for the Hulk, Raven, and Vindicator that I killed while I wasn't afk... or was I afk? It gets confusing! GTFO my thread ;)
no. no .... we finally got some listening audience. so we can do some education. :) nice one on the vindicator ... I wish i wouldnt be stuck with doing work stuff. *hmpf*
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Raetherana
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:58:00 -
[35]
There does need to be a type of EM scattering bomb that disables nearby cloaky ships.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.12 22:04:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Raetherana There does need to be a type of EM scattering bomb that disables nearby cloaky ships.
you are flying in your blockade runner in 0.0 to collect your loot/modules. you jump into a bubble camp. as usually you pulse your MWD and hit cloak to slide out of the bubble and warp out. BAM. EM bomb gets fired on the gate. your cloak drops and the ceptor points you.
chance for the gate camp to catch cloaker: 100% chance for you to evade the gate camp: 0%
atm you need good ceptor pilots who can anticipate your movement to decloak you before you warp out. Imho 60-70% chance for you 30-40% for them.
then they dont need any skills for killing people in bubble camps. does that sound balanced to you?
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Arden Elenduil
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Posted - 2010.04.12 22:12:00 -
[37]
Agreed,
It ain't broken, so don't fix it. Cloaks should not be changed. They can be a pain, I know, but that's just the way cloaks work.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2010.04.12 22:12:00 -
[38]
I have two counters to cloaks:
Brains and Balls.
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Solostrom
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Posted - 2010.04.13 04:36:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Bibbleibble I have two counters to cloaks:
Brains and Balls.
Sorry OP is ****ed about the hulk, raven, vindicator I killed so lets keep the discussion to topics relating to the SuperDPS/SuperTank Recon ships.
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AnarConn
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Posted - 2010.04.13 04:59:00 -
[40]
Edited by: AnarConn on 13/04/2010 05:01:01 Edited by: AnarConn on 13/04/2010 04:59:15 i think your confused, this is MY thread, now let me show u the door -> http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/5250/ncgetout.jpg And for your info, its not about you or your kills, its like the 100 other ppl that was here before you, nice try to take their credit tho
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Helixios
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Posted - 2010.04.13 05:35:00 -
[41]
First of all, a good majority of the people arguing in this topic are morons.
There's a simple fact to all this, and that it IS rather unfair to remain cloaked for endless amounts of time withough consequence, gaining the ability to disrupt operations at any time you chose or whatever the hell you like.
To be honest, there's a fair compromise to all the bull**** that's been slung in this thread.
It can all be solved by fuel consumption. If cloaking devices used a certain (not even costly, or rare) fuel based on the size of the ship using it, these problems would be solved. Long term scouting of systems by covert ops ships could continue, and stealth bombers could still have their fun for long amounts of time. The midground, Recon ships, would be able to remain in systems cloaked for a good amount of time as well, and only the largest, most riduculous ships to be cloaked would suffer the worst consequences of this system. In addition, long term covert ops operations would start requiring the assistance of a CovOps transport ship to meet the fuel requirements of said fleet. This ensures that the same amount of Logistics can go into boring system camping as the boring ratting players who have to move in groups because of cloaked enemies.
Implement a fuel consumption, and I wouldn't give a damn if Local was taken away. At least then there would be some actual thought involved in cloaked operations, rather than going to take a nap while everyone else ****s bricks about a random enemy in system who may or may not be roving around waiting behind every little rock in space waiting to kill you.
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Misunderstood Genius
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Posted - 2010.04.13 08:19:00 -
[42]
Eventually I would agree that every ship except Cov Ops/Recons who fit a cloak can be probed out but with special very expensive probes and very high skills. And even with this it's still hard. Eventually. But it makes no sense.
Generally: what's the frakking problem with afk cloakers? IF CCP would waste time to change mechanics - honestly, they better should focus on the real important stuff - what will that help? Even IF cloakers can be probed out with some handicaps what will happen? Every cloaker will simply adapt. And adaption means: I will warp to a safe and log. Period. And if am active I will just keep moving and warping around.
Cov Ops and Recons have their special tasks in EVE. Cloaking in a normal ship in nullsec is fine with the penalties and limitations. Your cloak is your private POS and it's ok how it is. Why not? We all are not living 23/7 in EVE. There's rl around. For some more and for some less. It gives you a better chance to survive in nullsec if you decide to explore or rat solo there. And the chance to die while jumping to the next system is high. Once you jump into a camp/bubble camp cloaking will help not really much but gives you a very little chance that you can luckily sneak away if the camp fails to catch you.
So just let it how it is and let's all whine about the real problem in EVE: LAG!
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.13 09:09:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Helixios There's a simple fact to all this, and that it IS rather unfair to remain cloaked for endless amounts of time withough consequence, gaining the ability to disrupt operations at any time you chose or whatever the hell you like.
its his (paid) playtime, he chooses to hang in your system around afking when he could do more useful things. Its his decision, a good and legal tactic - and its fine the way it is. If your operations are disrupted by one single cloaker 0.0 is a wrong place for you, anyways or get friends.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.13 09:58:00 -
[44]
Originally by: AnarConn
i think your confused, this is MY thread, now let me show u the door -> http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/5250/ncgetout.jpg And for your info, its not about you or your kills, its like the 100 other ppl that was here before you, nice try to take their credit tho
So you wanna tell us you dont want criticism in your thread? only supportive postings?
And lol on the picture ... we will see what the future will bring you. The clowns are coming for you.
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Misunderstood Genius
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Posted - 2010.04.13 10:03:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Mark Hadden
Originally by: Helixios There's a simple fact to all this, and that it IS rather unfair to remain cloaked for endless amounts of time withough consequence, gaining the ability to disrupt operations at any time you chose or whatever the hell you like.
its his (paid) playtime, he chooses to hang in your system around afking when he could do more useful things. Its his decision, a good and legal tactic - and its fine the way it is. If your operations are disrupted by one single cloaker 0.0 is a wrong place for you, anyways or get friends.
I am dual boxing for ages against numbers. Cloaking is the only way to work out advanced tactics, prep the engagement and finally risking your Falcon in a fight. Why caring about an afk cloaker? What's coming next? Afk docked pilots will be spit out into space when inactive becauce you can't kill them while docked? Nerfing insta undocks because you can't catch a ship at the undock spot warping away?
To nerf cloaking would not change anything except it would be just annoying to log all the time when going afk. But the result would be the same. It's still hard to hunt down an active player without a cloak doing things right like aligning or moving all the time.
When you recognize an afk cloaker in system just ignore him like you ignore pilots docked afk. It's very simple.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.13 10:09:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Misunderstood Genius
Originally by: Mark Hadden
Originally by: Helixios There's a simple fact to all this, and that it IS rather unfair to remain cloaked for endless amounts of time withough consequence, gaining the ability to disrupt operations at any time you chose or whatever the hell you like.
its his (paid) playtime, he chooses to hang in your system around afking when he could do more useful things. Its his decision, a good and legal tactic - and its fine the way it is. If your operations are disrupted by one single cloaker 0.0 is a wrong place for you, anyways or get friends.
I am dual boxing for ages against numbers. Cloaking is the only way to work out advanced tactics, prep the engagement and finally risking your Falcon in a fight. Why caring about an afk cloaker? What's coming next? Afk docked pilots will be spit out into space when inactive becauce you can't kill them while docked? Nerfing insta undocks because you can't catch a ship at the undock spot warping away?
To nerf cloaking would not change anything except it would be just annoying to log all the time when going afk. But the result would be the same. It's still hard to hunt down an active player without a cloak doing things right like aligning or moving all the time.
When you recognize an afk cloaker in system just ignore him like you ignore pilots docked afk. It's very simple.
I wish more people would get that :)
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Tarhim
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.13 11:27:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Helixios
There's a simple fact to all this, and that it IS rather unfair to remain cloaked for endless amounts of time withough consequence, gaining the ability to disrupt operations at any time you chose or whatever the hell you like.
waaah waah waaah.
EVE as an game and universe is complex enough to be unfair in many ways. You can wardec one man corp with your 1000+ alliance and this also is hardly fair.
AFK cloaker in system is not end of the world, system-wide jamming occurence. You can adapt to him - bait him, ignore him, whatever.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.13 11:34:00 -
[48]
It'll get nerfed eventually. It's definately coming. First was nos, then nano. Next is cloaks. Originally by: Mark Hadden Another afk cloaker whine?
Cloaks are fine and a counter itself against getting probed and killed.
Starving system activities with a cloaker is all right also, if you cant counter/bait a cloaker you have no qualification to inhabit any 0.0 system anyways, so get out there.
Carebears tears are delicious, especially flowing out of stations because of an evil red somewhere out there :-D
The counter to getting probed out and killed is actively bouncing safe spots. Keep moving and keep making new safe spots and no one will ever catch you. See that there? It's called balance. An active tactic countering another active tactic.
What's the point in owning space if you can't secure it? No one wants to babysit miners, or industrialists. Someone spots a hostile pilot, everyone ships up and kills them or chases them away. Then everyone goes back to what they were doing. Not so with a cloaker. A cloaked ship is a constant threat, not no threat. Any cloaked combat ship will BBQ a non combat ship. Recons will kill quite a few combat ships with ease.
The problem with afk cloakers isn't that they are cloaked. The problem is they can and do kill people. On thier timetable.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.13 11:41:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Torothanax It'll get nerfed eventually. It's definately coming. First was nos, then nano. Next is cloaks. Originally by: Mark Hadden Another afk cloaker whine?
Cloaks are fine and a counter itself against getting probed and killed.
Starving system activities with a cloaker is all right also, if you cant counter/bait a cloaker you have no qualification to inhabit any 0.0 system anyways, so get out there.
Carebears tears are delicious, especially flowing out of stations because of an evil red somewhere out there :-D
The counter to getting probed out and killed is actively bouncing safe spots. Keep moving and keep making new safe spots and no one will ever catch you. See that there? It's called balance. An active tactic countering another active tactic.
What's the point in owning space if you can't secure it? No one wants to babysit miners, or industrialists. Someone spots a hostile pilot, everyone ships up and kills them or chases them away. Then everyone goes back to what they were doing. Not so with a cloaker. A cloaked ship is a constant threat, not no threat. Any cloaked combat ship will BBQ a non combat ship. Recons will kill quite a few combat ships with ease.
The problem with afk cloakers isn't that they are cloaked. The problem is they can and do kill people. On thier timetable.
if you want highsec, move out and let people live there who can deal with stuff properly.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.13 11:48:00 -
[50]
Originally by: darius mclever if you want highsec, move out and let people live there who can deal with stuff properly.
Null sec is what the resident alliance want's to make of it. If they want to make it safe through thier efforts, that should be thier option. If you wanna change it, conqure it properly and then do what you want with it.
Why should one alt with a cloak be able to put a defencive force on infinate alert?
There is no technology that makes anyone completely undetectable. There never will be. |
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr GK inc. Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.04.13 11:50:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Torothanax
Originally by: darius mclever if you want highsec, move out and let people live there who can deal with stuff properly.
Null sec is what the resident alliance want's to make of it. If they want to make it safe through thier efforts, that should be thier option. If you wanna change it, conqure it properly and then do what you want with it.
Why should one alt with a cloak be able to put a defencive force on infinate alert?
There is no technology that makes anyone completely undetectable. There never will be.
What effort is there in anchoring a module to disrupt it? Isn't the effort placing camps and guards throughout the region so the cloaker can't get to the important parts of space? |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.13 11:55:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Torothanax
Originally by: darius mclever if you want highsec, move out and let people live there who can deal with stuff properly.
Null sec is what the resident alliance want's to make of it. If they want to make it safe through thier efforts, that should be thier option. If you wanna change it, conqure it properly and then do what you want with it.
Why should one alt with a cloak be able to put a defencive force on infinate alert?
There is no technology that makes anyone completely undetectable. There never will be.
your effort should be: guard entrance areas to your space (dead end pockets FTW). your effort will be fighting people when they try to enter your space. your effort will be "not being an easy prey", in case something slipped through.
dont rat alone, guard your miners.
works very well. yes this is a continious effort. there is no "we are done, it is safe now". (atleast not for long) |
Valharu
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Posted - 2010.04.13 12:01:00 -
[53]
I am curious here, I have played tactical games for years and studied combat history. How on earth did you people come up with the idea that AFK Cloaking and putting a cloak on a normal ship suddenly makes them non viable?
That is some of the most silly stuff I have ever heard. Burn Eden made awesome use of the cloak for ages and now we have even more ships that can use the Cov Opt Cloak.
As for Cov Opt Ships sacrificing firepower for the ability to stay cloaked, that is pure nonsense. The ability to gather intel is one of the most important things there is. It can make or break an engagement. That is far more deadly then fitting a cloak on a battle ship.
AFK cloaking is very nasty, its very purpose for some is the psychologial effects, it causes your enemy to become afraid at first and if it goes on a while, they become blind to it and later dead as logged off ships suddenly log on and attack somebody.
It just boggles my mind here, EVE is a very highly tactical game and either you guys have missed tactics 101 or you are BSing the OP here or BSing period so at not to get it changed.
I have seen cloaking used to devestating effect from Cov Ops to regulars ships and even now I am trying to worke with my friends and make a T3 team of ships into a nasty strike force. Imagin when there are 10 of us in system afked cloaked while we are at work, that system will shut down and THAT is a very Viable tactic or whatch them get lazy as they get use to us which is just awesome AND another very Viable Tactic. Local is a AFK cloakers best Friend.
Let the idiots be lulled into incompatence and see what happens.
But guys if you want cloak to stay the same, don't BS people, just come up with actual logical arguments. Don't come up with silly things like scan res, all that can be worked around, its just called brains.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.13 12:37:00 -
[54]
as i was the one with the numbers i will just say .... the cloak whiner usually claim "cloak has no penalties". which is not true. :)
and we brought waaaaaaaaaay more arguments than just the penalties of cloaking. I think the biggest problem with all anti cloak ideas is ... they nerf cloaking into uselessness especially for bonused ships. I have yet to see a balanced idea.
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.13 12:39:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Torothanax The counter to getting probed out and killed is actively bouncing safe spots.
no, its cloak.
Originally by: Torothanax
What's the point in owning space if you can't secure it?
- you dont "own" space, you may just anchor your structures there - you "can" protect it if you want
Originally by: Torothanax No one wants to babysit miners, or industrialists.
if you dont need them, dont protect them. That simple.
Originally by: Torothanax
Any cloaked combat ship will BBQ a non combat ship. Recons will kill quite a few combat ships with ease.
yes, a single bomber will roast a ratting raven or other BSs.
Originally by: Torothanax
The problem with afk cloakers isn't that they are cloaked. The problem is they can and do kill people. On thier timetable.
yes. But its only a problem for victims :-D
Originally by: Torothanax
If you spread your defences everywhere at once, you don't have enough force to properly defend anything.
yes. Then your space is too big if you cant protect it properly.
Originally by: Valharu How on earth did you people come up with the idea that AFK Cloaking and putting a cloak on a normal ship suddenly makes them non viable?
AFK implies a player is not there and cant harm anyone. This is what people are *****ing about.
Originally by: Valharu
As for Cov Opt Ships sacrificing firepower for the ability to stay cloaked, that is pure nonsense.
noone talks about covops sacrificing firepower, those ships are designed for stealth operation but none of them are real threat except for a bomber who will eventually obliterate a single carebear BS.
Originally by: Valharu
The ability to gather intel is one of the most important things there is. It can make or break an engagement. That is far more deadly then fitting a cloak on a battle ship.
yes, this is what coverts are for.
Originally by: Valharu
AFK cloaking is very nasty, its very purpose for some is the psychologial effects, it causes your enemy to become afraid at first and if it goes on a while, they become blind to it and later dead as logged off ships suddenly log on and attack somebody.
yes, its their purpose. Nothing wrong with that.
Originally by: Valharu
I have seen cloaking used to devestating effect from Cov Ops to regulars ships and even now I am trying to worke with my friends and make a T3 team of ships into a nasty strike force. Imagin when there are 10 of us in system afked cloaked while we are at work, that system will shut down and THAT is a very Viable tactic or whatch them get lazy as they get use to us which is just awesome AND another very Viable Tactic. Local is a AFK cloakers best Friend.
10 (ten) people are blocking a single system, so what??? Move along to the next system for ratting.
If a cloaker would be huntable, the entire deep 0.0 would be practically absolutely safe from hostiles because even a covert could not survive there for a long time due to continuous escape from possible hunters.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.04.13 12:40:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Torothanax
What's the point in owning space if you can't secure it?
Space isn't owned. It is presided over / ruled over / controlled by active presence.
Sovereignty does not equal omniscience or omnipotence. Just as a country can only control crime through active policing and patrolling, an alliance can only truly control "their" space through active and effective presence.
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SATAN
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2010.04.13 18:00:00 -
[57]
Remove local, problem solved.
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Helixios
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Posted - 2010.04.13 21:16:00 -
[58]
It's clear these guys don't know the difference between ****-talking due to war and a logical discussion about a fairly broken game mechanic.
Thank you, those of you who have argued logical points and actually held up a conversation worth listening to. I'm washing my hands of this troll-licious thread, for now, but my point still stands. I've yet to hear any real reasons why I'm wrong.
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Valharu
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Posted - 2010.04.13 23:18:00 -
[59]
10 (ten) people are blocking a single system, so what??? Move along to the next system for ratting.
If a cloaker would be huntable, the entire deep 0.0 would be practically absolutely safe from hostiles because even a covert could not survive there for a long time due to continuous escape from possible hunters.
Ok some of this was amusing, are you suggesting a wolf wouldnt follow where the sheep go?
And the rest is absurd. First of all, revealing Cloaking has been the main topic but the reality is, how its all done. THAT is what matters, and time after time, there is a difference between detecting a cloaked ship and then revealing it to everyone else.
More brains have to be added to this discussion instead of just claiming this or that.
There have been games out there already that have made this work and work well and not made it easy for either party but turned it into a true cat and mouse game.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.13 23:53:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx What effort is there in anchoring a module to disrupt it? Isn't the effort placing camps and guards throughout the region so the cloaker can't get to the important parts of space?
How do you stop a recon or a cov ops from running even a bubbled gate camp?
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