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A counter to cloak

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Torothanax	Posted - 2010.04.22 23:46:00 - [331] Originally by: Space Pinata Which one of us adapted a tactic and is currently using it? Adapted a tactic? Cloaks were custom made for keeping alts safe and afking. You didn't adapt squat. There was no thought required.
Valharu	Posted - 2010.04.23 00:48:00 - [332] Originally by: Solostrom Originally by: Valharu You people do understand that Intel is the most powerful weapon out there right? And if so, how can you argue against a way to hunt down cloaked vessels, the logic fails to show itself. Or is this some sort of hell with logic and more of a want issue, a want to act as you will without repercussions? The intel is clear. I show in local. You needed nothing to accomplish this fact. Seriously, remove local from nullsec. Then you won't ***** about me being in the system! How do you showing in local matter here? Its the fact that you can spy on ship movements which is where the dmg is done. I could careless about you being afk, you are not gathering intel then but since we don't know you are afk, it logical to presume you are gathering intel. That is where the dmg is done. In no system that I know of does Cloak mean untouchable, just super stealthy and still must move with caution. For there are still ways to find you are cause dmg, but I have not seen that counter here. So why is EVE supoosed to be so different in that reguard, and alot of these argument about patience and others has no revlence.
Helixios	Posted - 2010.04.23 04:19:00 - [333] When cloaks have a limit, go ahead and remove Local. It's ******ed that Local exists as an intel source anyways. But for the love of god do not remove local until cloaking is balanced for proper gameplay. Give Cloaks a limit, such as fuel, and it should be fine.
Tibalt Avalon Suck my Titan	Posted - 2010.04.23 05:56:00 - [334] Originally by: Mark Hadden Edited by: Mark Hadden on 12/04/2010 09:06:32 Originally by: AnarConn its not a whine. Eve is all about balance, and i dont see anything to balance a cloak. how is cloak imbalanced?? You can do a **** when cloaked... No threat. Bow before the mighty cloak Hardstyle Ambassador
Daenosa Pineal Squeegee	Posted - 2010.04.23 08:16:00 - [335] Originally by: Valharu How do you showing in local matter here? Its the fact that you can spy on ship movements which is where the dmg is done. I could careless about you being afk, you are not gathering intel then but since we don't know you are afk, it logical to presume you are gathering intel. That is where the dmg is done. In no system that I know of does Cloak mean untouchable, just super stealthy and still must move with caution. For there are still ways to find you are cause dmg, but I have not seen that counter here. You can only spy on ship movements if you can fly cloaked ie covert ops ships which in most people's opinion should never ever be detectable. Otherwise you have to use a normal cloak and sit in 1 spot which greatly restricts your ability to gather anything, expect maybe a good layer of dust. The only way a cloak ship to cause "damage" is via intel gathering which is only good if you have a fleet together to act on that intel. A cloak ship by itself can cause no damage whatsoever. Besides if your that hung up about invincible intel gathering theres many other ways of going about it that doesn't use cloaks.
Bawidamek	Posted - 2010.04.23 16:13:00 - [336] Originally by: Torothanax Originally by: Daenosa again, you remove local as an intel tool, cloak whine goes away. 1 problem, 1 solution. W-space works perfectly fine As Vincent pointed out, local as intel goes away, cloaking immunity does not. How much fun would it be if everyone flew cloaked ships? There would never be any combat in open space. You know why? Because no one would be able to find anyone else. Sounds like fun to me... The only combat would take place on stationary objects. Stations, POSs, maybe gates. Do you really think anyone is going to mine when they have to constantly worry about competely invisible and uncounterable cloaking ships? Hauling? Jump freighter from pos to pos only. Ratting? Not without a cloaked alt in tow. People would flock to high sec were they could at least have a chance of not getting ganked. And then there'd be even more cries for "nerf high sec, we don't have anything to shoot". Sounds like low sec now huh? This of course is a bit of an exageration, but I bet it's not too far off from what would actually happen. If you are so enamored with delayed local, you could always go hunt in W space. Tell me how that works out for you. signed all ships shold be probed ;p
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.04.23 16:20:00 - [337] Originally by: Bawidamek Originally by: Torothanax stuff for lol'z signed all ships shold be probed ;p Because there is no PvP in WH space, amiright?
Daenosa Pineal Squeegee	Posted - 2010.04.23 16:51:00 - [338] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Bawidamek Originally by: Torothanax stuff for lol'z signed all ships shold be probed ;p Because there is no PvP in WH space, amiright? I can confirm w-space is as safe as can be and you should all drop by sometime for a friendly cuppa.
Giakom	Posted - 2010.04.23 21:54:00 - [339] Originally by: Daenosa Originally by: Valharu How do you showing in local matter here? Its the fact that you can spy on ship movements which is where the dmg is done. I could careless about you being afk, you are not gathering intel then but since we don't know you are afk, it logical to presume you are gathering intel. That is where the dmg is done. In no system that I know of does Cloak mean untouchable, just super stealthy and still must move with caution. For there are still ways to find you are cause dmg, but I have not seen that counter here. You can only spy on ship movements if you can fly cloaked ie covert ops ships which in most people's opinion should never ever be detectable. Otherwise you have to use a normal cloak and sit in 1 spot which greatly restricts your ability to gather anything, expect maybe a good layer of dust. The only way a cloak ship to cause "damage" is via intel gathering which is only good if you have a fleet together to act on that intel. A cloak ship by itself can cause no damage whatsoever. Besides if your that hung up about invincible intel gathering theres many other ways of going about it that doesn't use cloaks. sitting afk is crap - if you want fight just fight. the probe for cloak probing should be added as well as local removing from null.
Daenosa Pineal Squeegee	Posted - 2010.04.24 01:16:00 - [340] Originally by: Giakom sitting afk is crap - if you want fight just fight. the probe for cloak probing should be added as well as local removing from null. If you managed to read the thread you would of noticed you are agreeing with me

Torothanax	Posted - 2010.04.24 01:46:00 - [341] Do you ever get tired of making things up? Misrepresenting fact? Ignoring facts? Outright lying? Are you really that bad at the game that you have to go to any length to protect your crutch? Originally by: Daenosa You can only spy on ship movements if you can fly cloaked ie covert ops ships which in most people's opinion should never ever be detectable. Otherwise you have to use a normal cloak and sit in 1 spot which greatly restricts your ability to gather anything, expect maybe a good layer of dust Learn to use safe spots and the directional scanner. You can determine enemy force and fleet make up as well as exact location while cloaked at a safe spot within 14 au of whatever you are gathering intel on. You don't have to be on grid. You don't even have to be cloaked. If you absolutely HAVE to have "eyes on" intel, you can do it in an agile and/or fast ship with tactical book marks around whatever you are watching. There's no reason cloaks need to be invincible other then "I don't know how to play eve" or maybe "I need it that way to keep my alts safe". Neither are valid. Originally by: Daenosa The only way a cloak ship to cause "damage" is via intel gathering which is only good if you have a fleet together to act on that intel. A cloak ship by itself can cause no damage whatsoever. Here's the lying part. No cloaked ship could possibly have weapons or destroy ANYTHING by it's self. No sir. It never ever EVER happens. Not in a million years. Blah blah bla-bla blah blah blah blah, and further more blah. You can lie about somthing all day. Sure some gullible people will believe you, but it doesn't make it true.
Midori Tsu Broski Reloaded	Posted - 2010.04.24 02:14:00 - [342] Cloaks are working as intended, no reason to gimp them. Afraid that a rapier will apear on grid and you'll desync with out any warning? Then don't undock, or just be safe about things. You are all babies.
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.04.24 03:04:00 - [343] Quote: Here's the lying part. No cloaked ship could possibly have weapons or destroy ANYTHING by it's self. No sir. It never ever EVER happens. Not in a million years. Blah blah bla-bla blah blah blah blah, and further more blah. You can lie about somthing all day. Sure some gullible people will believe you, but it doesn't make it true. Quote: I lost my ratting raven to a cloaky ship, and think that all of EVE should be changed to protect my ratting raven.
Davelantor Caldari Ore Exploration Team	Posted - 2010.04.24 08:16:00 - [344] this is like whining about a noob ship not being able to kill a well equipped battleship, and asking for a "fix" that will rarely start a event that can make a single shot a extremely lucky one that can destroy the battleship. Because if you can find a cloaked ship inside a system it will just fkup the life of a spy, one that monitors the enemy movements and observe traffic. this is just an other noob whining for a change on a system that has already been screwed around enough. the decloak range increased, other than covert ops ship (the glass cannons), no other ship can warp cloaked + they get a speed penalty, so even if they wanted to decloak and warp it will take more time, even if one is cloaked, you can see him on the local CHAT list, which **s the main goal of stealth .. and yet some whiners come and ask for more nerfing next thing we known, the will ask them to popup on overview aswell but cant be targeted, i mean comeon, they are in the local Chat already, why not the freaken overview. i would only agree with this if cloakers also get local removal and the "special scan" you talk about will be buggy when one is 40km near the enemy ship + can be easier to detect the prototype cloaking systems :P but, than to balance that one should also lower the sensor recalibration time or remove it totaly sensor calibration time : time it takes you to be able to lock targets once you decloak The Hunt
Kidzior	Posted - 2010.04.24 09:14:00 - [345] Originally by: Davelantor this is like whining about a noob ship not being able to kill a well equipped battleship, and asking for a "fix" that will rarely start a event that can make a single shot a extremely lucky one that can destroy the battleship. Because if you can find a cloaked ship inside a system it will just fkup the life of a spy, one that monitors the enemy movements and observe traffic. this is just an other noob whining for a change on a system that has already been screwed around enough. the decloak range increased, other than covert ops ship (the glass cannons), no other ship can warp cloaked + they get a speed penalty, so even if they wanted to decloak and warp it will take more time, even if one is cloaked, you can see him on the local CHAT list, which **s the main goal of stealth .. and yet some whiners come and ask for more nerfing next thing we known, the will ask them to popup on overview aswell but cant be targeted, i mean comeon, they are in the local Chat already, why not the freaken overview. i would only agree with this if cloakers also get local removal and the "special scan" you talk about will be buggy when one is 40km near the enemy ship + can be easier to detect the prototype cloaking systems :P but, than to balance that one should also lower the sensor recalibration time or remove it totaly sensor calibration time : time it takes you to be able to lock targets once you decloak the only problem is that it's rly easy sit afk in enemy system and chceck from time to time if somebody is ratting - if yes - sb can easly capture, keep, and with rats kill any ship in few sec. Some ppl are earning money for pvp just by ratting - and in that case they are forced to move to high-sec and do some missions because ratting with >1 ppl is not working, keeping friends on stand is carp. Calibration ? - on bomber? rotfl. On recons? - saw some solutions (and used it as well) - it's easy chceck where your enemy is - warp on some celestials and decloak during re-warp. On my arazu it was rly easy to cut enemys target range and kill him with rats and some dps from recon. I got some problems twice but friend with system near was helped me ;p. If somebody comparing well fitted bs to noob ship - it's not sufficient - even couple of nobs can attack and kill any "well well well fitted bs" but against cloaked ones? they are 100% immune as long as they keep cloak - and they called it pro (like you) and they think it's pure pvp. alt war - thats all ;p The most funny is that CCP wanted to prove high-sec players that they can earn more money in null, and they wanted to encourage them to move their asses to low-sec and null - but the only they achieved was that all ppl moved to do some missions in high. Wonder what else CCP would do to make ppl happy ;p ROTFL
Giakom	Posted - 2010.04.24 10:06:00 - [346] I'm wondering what CCP is thinking about that - cos they've given SOV and upgrades to players, and to upgrade it owners have to care about killing rats etc - and two alts with cloak are able to crush activity in this system - and always - but always some stupid noob would ratting alone or wihout any help on standby. And - it's good idea - I'm taking both my alts to some enemies sov now :D they spent month to upgrade them :D :D :D
Daenosa Pineal Squeegee	Posted - 2010.04.24 11:00:00 - [347] Edited by: Daenosa on 24/04/2010 11:01:28 Originally by: Torothanax Originally by: Daenosa Learn to use safe spots and the directional scanner. You can determine enemy force and fleet make up as well as exact location while cloaked at a safe spot within 14 au of whatever you are gathering intel on. You don't have to be on grid. You don't even have to be cloaked. What a way to invalidate your own point Originally by: Torothanax Here's the lying part. No cloaked ship could possibly have weapons or destroy ANYTHING by it's self. No sir. It never ever EVER happens. Not in a million years. Blah blah bla-bla blah blah blah blah, and further more blah. You can lie about somthing all day. Sure some gullible people will believe you, but it doesn't make it true. Your reading only bits of what i am saying, a cloaked ship cannot shoot you if it has guns onboard or regardess. If he has to uncloak to shoot and then hes fair game to everyone, how is that lying? Next your going to say a cloaked ship can sneak up on you so its not fair
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.04.24 11:02:00 - [348] Originally by: Giakom I'm wondering what CCP is thinking about that - cos they've given SOV and upgrades to players, and to upgrade it owners have to care about killing rats etc - and two alts with cloak are able to crush activity in this system - and always - but always some stupid noob would ratting alone or wihout any help on standby. And - it's good idea - I'm taking both my alts to some enemies sov now :D they spent month to upgrade them :D :D :D They wanted to increase small gang pvp in 0.0, and disrupting carebearing is the best thing small gangs can do.
Torothanax	Posted - 2010.04.26 06:56:00 - [349] Edited by: Torothanax on 26/04/2010 06:58:12 Originally by: Daenosa Your reading only bits of what i am saying, a cloaked ship cannot shoot you if it has guns onboard or regardess. If he has to uncloak to shoot and then hes fair game to everyone, how is that lying? Originally by: Torothanax Do you ever get tired of making things up? Misrepresenting fact? Ignoring facts? Outright lying? Are you really that bad at the game that you have to go to any length to protect your crutch? Now you are ignoring facts again. I guess you really don't get tired of desperately grasping at straws. Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Giakom I'm wondering what CCP is thinking about that - cos they've given SOV and upgrades to players, and to upgrade it owners have to care about killing rats etc - and two alts with cloak are able to crush activity in this system - and always - but always some stupid noob would ratting alone or wihout any help on standby. And - it's good idea - I'm taking both my alts to some enemies sov now :D they spent month to upgrade them :D :D :D They wanted to increase small gang pvp in 0.0, and disrupting carebearing is the best thing small gangs can do. Since when is afk cloaking small gang warfare? Since when is it even playing the game? Why is this thread still going?
Daenosa Pineal Squeegee	Posted - 2010.04.26 08:18:00 - [350] Originally by: Torothanax ]Since when is afk cloaking small gang warfare? Since when is it even playing the game? Why is this thread still going? It was was on page 2/3 but you keep reviving it, stop trying to prove an invalid point and let the thread die like it should as soon as it was made.

Torothanax	Posted - 2010.04.26 11:18:00 - [351] Cloaks have no counter. This is not balanced. Seems pretty valid to me.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.04.26 12:13:00 - [352] Originally by: Torothanax Cloaks have no counter. This is not balanced. Seems pretty valid to me. We already got the fact that you have no clue what you are talking about, you dont have to prove it more.
EmpireOfDust	Posted - 2010.04.26 13:26:00 - [353] Quote: Because if you can find a cloaked ship inside a system it will just fkup the life of a spy, one that monitors the enemy movements and observe traffic. this is just an other noob whining for a change on a system that has already been screwed around enough. the decloak range increased, Actually it would **up the life of a spy that sits in a safespot all day. Imo introduce some probes which can probe down cloaked ships, put really low sensor strength on them and a deviation of about 5k from the point (with max skills), that way you still need to search the grid, and you can't find an ACTIVE cloaker who is likely to be moving around and therefore very difficult to probe out... Because truth be told all a spy needs right now is a prototype cloaking device, a safespot and fraps. And this is from the point of view of someone who thinks cloaking is a good tactic and enjoys seeing it being used effectively and truthfully probes shouldn't change anything for someone who uses cloaking properly.
Torothanax	Posted - 2010.04.26 13:29:00 - [354] Hey look, someone not stuck in a river in Egypt. Imagine that.
Giakom	Posted - 2010.04.26 13:35:00 - [355] Originally by: Daenosa Originally by: Torothanax ]Since when is afk cloaking small gang warfare? Since when is it even playing the game? Why is this thread still going? It was was on page 2/3 but you keep reviving it, stop trying to prove an invalid point and let the thread die like it should as soon as it was made. rly? 2/3? It's true that cloaking has no counter, it's true that CCP will do nothing with that, it's true that whinning is comes from afk'er who are playing on alts & from uber-pro bots users who are using cloak to be 100% immune. I'm using cloak as well - both with covert cyno on board and there's no counter for such a activity, and we'll use it as long as something change with that ;p
Mark Hadden Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke	Posted - 2010.04.26 15:48:00 - [356] Originally by: Torothanax Cloaks have no counter. This is not balanced. AFK cloaking is the only method for mitigating the existence of the local. If AFK cloaking would be removed by making afk cloakers probe-able no viable counter for local would exist anymore. Originally by: Torothanax Seems pretty valid to me. no and let this thread die now.
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.04.26 16:40:00 - [357] Originally by: Mark Hadden AFK cloaking is the only method for mitigating the existence of the local. If AFK cloaking would be removed by making afk cloakers probe-able no viable counter for local would exist anymore. You probably don't want to center your defense around a claim that your tactic is used in order to circumvent official gameplay mechanics and gain unfair advantages against other players. -- Did you get that thing i sent you?
Space Pinata Amarr Discount Napkin Industries	Posted - 2010.04.26 17:12:00 - [358] Everyone says this is a fix for AFK cloakers. No one addresses the fact that, if probeable, cloaks do LITERALLY NOTHING for your ship. In fact, if cloaks could be probed, you'd be disadvantaged by fitting one, since you couldn't bounce safes or pre-align. In other words: you'd make the module do absolutely, literally, 100%, not a damn thing. "But it's hard to probe out" doesn't hold water, unless you let even prototype/improved cloaks warp while cloaked.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.04.26 17:24:00 - [359] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Mark Hadden AFK cloaking is the only method for mitigating the existence of the local. If AFK cloaking would be removed by making afk cloakers probe-able no viable counter for local would exist anymore. You probably don't want to center your defense around a claim that your tactic is used in order to circumvent official gameplay mechanics and gain unfair advantages against other players. not everyone is monkey and his buddy and uses exploits. waiting until the ratter feels comfortable with you in local is far from using exploits. but nice try.
Mark Hadden Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:15:00 - [360] Edited by: Mark Hadden on 26/04/2010 18:16:07 Originally by: Goumindong You probably don't want to center your defense around a claim that your tactic is used in order to circumvent official gameplay mechanics and gain unfair advantages against other players. cloaking is an official gameplay mechanic as local, so while you considering cloaking as unfair, I'm ready to state the local is unfair, so making it partially useless by afk cloaking in a system is all right and requred to circumvent local as intel.



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