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Slimy Worm
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Posted - 2010.04.16 03:14:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Slimy Worm on 16/04/2010 03:15:40 To respond to the original troll:
Cloaky ships popping ratters and miners aren't an issue. All you need is a semi-afk buddy within earshot of vent and you're safe. Cloaky ships aren't very tough.
If you get killed by a cloaky afk-er, most likely you're either not smart enough to not be conditioned into thinking it's safe to rat when there's cloakies in the system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning), you're not smart enough to fit 1-2 stabs onto your PvE ship, or you are making the mistake of ratting without competent backup.
Every ratter in the system should have a PvP ship in a POS or a station amd it takes under a minute to switch ships and warp to a belt so you don't have to waste anybody "guarding" the ratters.
Mining ops require more protection; they usually should be guarded by a cloaked Falcon since they can die before their buddies arrive. Having to "waste" one person as a guard is already being partially addressed by making mining more profitable in the next patch (so the guard and the miners will have more ISK to split between themselves), although relying on other players instead of CONCORD to protect your assets is an inherent part of lowsec and nullsec.
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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.04.16 03:26:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Mark Hadden
Originally by: Goumindong
Take the station, siege the POS.
LMAO yeah
Requires almost the same efforts as protecting a carebear from a cloaker, right?
Possibly takes less man hours(especially considering all "kill the cloaked ship scenarios" require the cloaker to take action). And POS and Station are expensive and difficult to maintain, so its not like there is some undue burden here, you even get to take the initiative(and the satisfaction of destroying much more isk worth of assets and effort)
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.16 09:28:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 16/04/2010 09:29:40
so I'm glad we have moved forward from the standpoint there should be no 100% safety. So you say you should be 100% safe because you live there and fuel POS and stuff - and I say I should be safe in a covert/recon because those are ships designed for that, its their purpose.
Afraid of a hostile in your system?? Get a friend with an interceptor, arazu, rapier or something.
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Giakom
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Posted - 2010.04.16 11:52:00 -
[94]
Yea, And keep all these firends by whole a day just w8 if afk cloaker appear. ROTFL
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Xtover
Infinite Improbability Inc
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Posted - 2010.04.16 12:00:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Mark Hadden
Afraid of a hostile in your system?? Get a friend with an interceptor, arazu, rapier or something.
I want cloakers probable because it'd be fun hunting them down while they do their best to stay hidden. I want it to be that game of cat and mouse, where who is the cat and who is the mouse changes. I want them to try to take me out because my [insert new T2 destroyer] is a threat to them being able to hunt their prey.
It would add a level of fun to the game.
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Gramotny
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Posted - 2010.04.16 12:09:00 -
[96]
heh - my friend has 2 alts and he skilled sb on both. I did the same - and we are hunting in 4 systems from time to time. We are keeping chars online whole day and looking there if nothing is happen in ally. The all we should do is to check if some stupid ratters/miners is doing something and then... - even if he's aligned - point, bomb, torps and he'd died cos of our dps and rats :D Thats rly funny to have them scared whole the time - and checking account once or twice a day ;p
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Laurew
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Posted - 2010.04.16 12:13:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Torothanax
Originally by: Mark Hadden tell me more about it why a dedicated covert ship should not be safe in space. Because of lacking counters? So there are no counters against being in a POS or station as well. This cant be a problem. Cosider cloaking as docking for coverts in a hostile space. It is completely fine. I could imagine nerfing cloaks for undedicated ships like battleships, carrier, titans or something but coverts and recons should be safe when cloaked.
Because there never has been and never will be a completely infalable "stealth" anything. Recons are based on modern submarines. Difficult to detect. Very hard to pin down. Not impossible. Originally by: Mark Hadden POS = close to 100% safety in most cases. Probability of dying in a POS FF (only during a war) is the same as if somebody bumps into you accidentally on a SS and decloak you while afking.
A pos takes fuel and planning and time to set up. Think of it as a home court advantage for someone who has prepared before hand. At least you can remove it if you like. A cloaker gets complete immunity to everything any time and any place he likes. No work or preperation required.
Originally by: Laurew so lets say that ccp listen to all your carebear whines and nerfs cloaks. whats to then stop a person entering your system with a dramiel and perma MWD in the system for 12hrs while he/she is asleep? will have the same effect, you wont be able to probe it out.
then ccp will nerf the dram, so people will start using the next fastest ship.
point is, people will always find a way to disrupt your carebear activities in 0.0. cry all you like, if you cant handle one simple afk cloaker in your system then you should stay in empire.
At least you know the ship type and location. You can counter it or take apropriate steps to minimize risk. A single Dram, for instance, won't get the benifit of a speed boosing gang link. You can probe it down, get within 100-200km and then run it down. Even if you couldn't catch him, at least you can probe him at any time and verify that he's still just MWDing in a straight line and not setting up to gank someone. Same thing with a docked ship. It's a known threat.
A cloaked ship on the other hand is a complete unknown, unless he reveals himself.
i would love to see you scan down and catch a mwd dramiel, it would be near impossible. and your still missing the point.
what you are really saying is:
I want to rat/mine in complete safety in 0.0 and im going to whine about until ccp makes it happen. its really not hard to bait a cloaker in your system, seriously.
if you understood the tactical uses for a cov ops in a fleet fight, or its use as a intel gathering tool then you would understand that being able to probe a cov ops ship is ******ed.
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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.04.16 12:26:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Goumindong on 16/04/2010 12:28:46
Originally by: Mark Hadden Edited by: Mark Hadden on 16/04/2010 09:29:40
so I'm glad we have moved forward from the standpoint there should be no 100% safety. So you say you should be 100% safe because you live there and fuel POS and stuff - and I say I should be safe in a covert/recon because those are ships designed for that, its their purpose.
Afraid of a hostile in your system?? Get a friend with an interceptor, arazu, rapier or something.
No. I am saying that if you don't have the balls or the smarts to siege towers that people have taken the time and effort to set up and maintain then you should not get the rewards. I mean, its 100% safe to fuel towers and like, you totally can't stop that by doing something like cloaking off a tower and just waiting until they come out. And you totally can't get some battleships and simply kill the thing right?
Beyond that, i am saying that there are ways that you can, if you have the balls and the smarts, take down those towers if you want. And beyond that, since you think they're 100% safe, that you don't have balls or smarts.
I am saying that I want to scan down cloaked ships and kill them. I want to be able to jump into a system, see a ratter, scan him down and kill him and not have that not work because he can cloak and simply wait for me to leave.
Originally by: Laurew
if you understood the tactical uses for a cov ops in a fleet fight, or its use as a intel gathering tool then you would understand that being able to probe a cov ops ship is ******ed.
So what you're saying is that because cov-ops are good for gathering intel and tactics in fleet fights you should not be able to counter that?
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.16 13:00:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 16/04/2010 13:02:08
Originally by: Goumindong
No. I am saying that if you don't have the balls or the smarts to siege towers that people have taken the time and effort to set up and maintain then you should not get the rewards. I mean, its 100% safe to fuel towers and like, you totally can't stop that by doing something like cloaking off a tower and just waiting until they come out. And you totally can't get some battleships and simply kill the thing right?
Beyond that, i am saying that there are ways that you can, if you have the balls and the smarts, take down those towers if you want. And beyond that, since you think they're 100% safe, that you don't have balls or smarts.
lol siege a tower is not enough, you have to remove it entirely. I want you to do this deepy in the enemy territory, I hope you know how impossible this is and because of this people are 99.9999999% safe there, mkay? I dont mind, its ok if they hide quickly, was my fault not having catched them in time but I dont whine about how safe they are there, so you should stop whining how safe recons and coverts are in a hostile space.
Originally by: Goumindong
I am saying that I want to scan down cloaked ships and kill them. I want to be able to jump into a system, see a ratter, scan him down and kill him and not have that not work because he can cloak and simply wait for me to leave.
not everything should be gankable at will
btw. for people complaining cloaks have no counter. afk cloaking is a counter itself, against endless carebearing, if you like this perspective :)
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Giakom
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Posted - 2010.04.16 13:02:00 -
[100]
even coverts should be available for probing them. Just to force them to move around and stop this ****ign afk war between ratters and cloaked alts ;p
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.16 13:06:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Giakom even coverts should be available for probing them. Just to force them to move around and stop this ****ign afk war between ratters and cloaked alts ;p
no they should not.
afking somewhere is their legitime task - for disrupting enemy activities and gathering intel.
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Laurew
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Posted - 2010.04.16 13:38:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Laurew
if you understood the tactical uses for a cov ops in a fleet fight, or its use as a intel gathering tool then you would understand that being able to probe a cov ops ship is ******ed.
So what you're saying is that because cov-ops are good for gathering intel and tactics in fleet fights you should not be able to counter that?
thats exactly what i am saying. a cov ops/recon/bops/bomber should never be able to be probed out because thats what their role is.
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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.04.16 14:15:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Goumindong on 16/04/2010 14:18:12
Originally by: Mark Hadden
Originally by: Giakom even coverts should be available for probing them. Just to force them to move around and stop this ****ign afk war between ratters and cloaked alts ;p
no they should not.
afking somewhere is their legitime task - for disrupting enemy activities and gathering intel.
Killing things is the legitimate task of battleships. Therefore battleships should not be able to be attacked because otherwise they could not do their legitimate task.
Now do you understand how foolish your comment is?
Nothing should be 100% safe in space. Cloaks do that. This does not mean it should be easy to catch and kill cloaked ships, especially ships with bonuses to cloaking. But it does mean that activating a cloak should not make you immune to being attacked as it does.
Originally by: Mark Hadden
lol siege a tower is not enough, you have to remove it entirely. I want you to do this deepy in the enemy territory, I hope you know how impossible this is and because of this people are 99.9999999% safe there, mkay? I dont mind, its ok if they hide quickly, was my fault not having catched them in time but I dont whine about how safe they are there, so you should stop whining how safe recons and coverts are in a hostile space.
Whatever, just because you don't have the balls and the skills to make it happen its totally unfair right? It mean, its not like you can stop them from warping to a POS by destroying it? Man up and make it happen.
Quote:
btw. for people complaining cloaks have no counter. afk cloaking is a counter itself, against endless carebearing, if you like this perspective :)
Cloaks are the things that allow endless carebearing without risk of losing your ship to a roaming gang.
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Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.04.16 14:20:00 -
[104]
If cloaked ships scare you that much...
You can always abandon your 0.0 sov, move back to empire and run Lvl 4's
Because clearly you are too chicken **** to protect it if one cloaker can nap a whole corp
Grow a Set
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Giakom
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Posted - 2010.04.16 14:22:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Giakom on 16/04/2010 14:24:25
Originally by: Mark Hadden
Originally by: Giakom even coverts should be available for probing them. Just to force them to move around and stop this ****ign afk war between ratters and cloaked alts ;p
no they should not.
afking somewhere is their legitime task - for disrupting enemy activities and gathering intel.
Yes it is :p If you want to disrupt enemy activities and gather intel just do it actively ;p If you want to go afk just leave game :) Should it be boot games? Just give us oportunity to force afkr's to move their fat asses ;p
It's simple - if you are active and in covert you can jump from ss to ss, it's not so easy to scan when somebody is jumping. If you are not - it means that you are ****ing afk'rs. And it should help for all bot-like ratters as well ;p
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Gramotny
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Posted - 2010.04.16 17:19:00 -
[106]
and? no comments for speciall ****ed probes for ****ed afk'rs?
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Andy Landen
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.16 21:02:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Horchan The way to counter a cloak? Nerf Local.
Yeah. Why is it that my ship has to broadcast itself to local before I transmit on local? WH locals for all of null sec are a much better idea. Empires can require local broadcast as a condition for moving into/within their space (LS or HS), but we should not automatically appear on local in null sec, cloaky issues notwithstanding. The key to pvp is effective fleet teamwork. |
Andy Landen
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.16 21:08:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Xtover
Originally by: Mark Hadden
Afraid of a hostile in your system?? Get a friend with an interceptor, arazu, rapier or something.
I want cloakers probable because it'd be fun hunting them down while they do their best to stay hidden. I want it to be that game of cat and mouse, where who is the cat and who is the mouse changes. I want them to try to take me out because my [insert new T2 destroyer] is a threat to them being able to hunt their prey.
It would add a level of fun to the game.
You know he has a good point. I know that some ship systems do interfere with the cloak, so it makes sense that a ship could produce some kind of interference that extends the range of ship decloaking. Instead of 2500m proximity decloaking a ship, a decloaking module could increase that distance to 10km. A cloaky ship could still remain cloaked if it just kept its distance from ships with decloaking modules. The key to pvp is effective fleet teamwork. |
Bloody2k
Gallente SCHWARZSCHILD. Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2010.04.16 21:42:00 -
[109]
The cloak is a great item to use it if you want to go "afk" but it can be very cruel if it is used by many "cloack alts"...
fact:
- CCP reduced skilltime for cloack --> now electronics lvl4 (Rank 1 skill) why
1. I think the scanner should not work if you are cloaked! There is no logical pathway to allow a cloacked ship to use the scanner. On the other hand a cloacked ship is not able to be detected.
2. Allow POS scanner to detect cloackers. You have already work for the safety in this system, this should be the reward.
3. A other idea is let the scanner work but let the screen "fade to black".
4. A other idea is freeze the local in this moment you cloack. The cloacker have to uncloak if he want to see the new local count.
But plz let it be a safe if baby is crying while ganking and plz do nothing to nerf it this way....remember the linebreakers! Einmal mit Profis! |
Helixios
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Posted - 2010.04.17 01:19:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Helixios Edited by: Helixios on 14/04/2010 23:28:20 I honestly hope these aren't the sort of people I expect to be fighting in the coming time. The arguments and ignorance here hardly give me reason to think this war will be interesting at all... Rather simply a nearly endless battle of internet ego to see who's more stubborn.
You're not impressing anyone by tossing out these carebear insults, so why don't you try using some of those dimly flickering brain cells to put up a viable argument, rather than proving how unbelievably dense you are.
-sigh-
The topic discussion is regarding cloaking. While to your seemingly primitive mind, it might read "come here to trash talk for the coming war", it really... doesn't. So either leave or give some valueable insight as to why cloaking doesn't need to be balanced other than "lulz, you suxorz, and i'm going to spam this topic because i don't leik yoo".
Repeated again for relevance.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.17 05:44:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Torothanax on 17/04/2010 05:48:21
Originally by: Laurew i would love to see you scan down and catch a mwd dramiel, it would be near impossible. and your still missing the point.
what you are really saying is:
I want to rat/mine in complete safety in 0.0 and im going to whine about until ccp makes it happen. its really not hard to bait a cloaker in your system, seriously.
if you understood the tactical uses for a cov ops in a fleet fight, or its use as a intel gathering tool then you would understand that being able to probe a cov ops ship is ******ed.
I played the nano game. I've played with the new dram. I've played the "probe and catch a MWDing ship." I guarantee I could do it if he was afk.
If you could probe cloaked ships, they'd just have to relocate to stay safe. You can do the same thing with a non cloaking ship now. If you keep bouncing and making safe spots, no one will EVER catch you. Oh but that takes work huh? Couldn't have you do any of that now could we princess?
What I'm saying is I'd like all the "I don't lose" buttons removed. Have I made that clear enough yet?
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BzydaL
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Posted - 2010.04.17 11:20:00 -
[112]
After new patch we will get some bookmark nerf (lol) and deep scaner probes would be totally crap. It would be nice to have oportunity to force ppl to fight - I mean cloaked afk'rs - and deep scaner probes should have such a option ;p If some cloak "pro" fighter appear in system he should be active whole the time, if no - he always can go to high-sec and stay afk as long as he want ;p
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Laurew
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Posted - 2010.04.17 11:25:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Torothanax Edited by: Torothanax on 17/04/2010 05:48:21
Originally by: Laurew i would love to see you scan down and catch a mwd dramiel, it would be near impossible. and your still missing the point.
what you are really saying is:
I want to rat/mine in complete safety in 0.0 and im going to whine about until ccp makes it happen. its really not hard to bait a cloaker in your system, seriously.
if you understood the tactical uses for a cov ops in a fleet fight, or its use as a intel gathering tool then you would understand that being able to probe a cov ops ship is ******ed.
I played the nano game. I've played with the new dram. I've played the "probe and catch a MWDing ship." I guarantee I could do it if he was afk.
If you could probe cloaked ships, they'd just have to relocate to stay safe. You can do the same thing with a non cloaking ship now. If you keep bouncing and making safe spots, no one will EVER catch you. Oh but that takes work huh? Couldn't have you do any of that now could we princess?
What I'm saying is I'd like all the "I don't lose" buttons removed. Have I made that clear enough yet?
truth hurts huh?
being able to probe out a covops ship is just stupid. it completely defeats the purpose of the ship. its like nerfing the range on a logistics ship so it can be neuted.
if you are worried about the whole afk cloaking thing, why not suggest something intelligent instead of waaaa waaaa waaaa you cant counter a cloak waaaa waaa waaaa.
if you were a competent pilot you would already have the cloaky thing sorted.
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BzydaL
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Posted - 2010.04.17 11:40:00 -
[114]
yea - do something inteligent.. some example pls? hmm - maybe we should play hard tanked bs whole the time? no - because they can have covert cyno on board nad do hot-drop any time they want... but you never know. I thought it's the game for play player vs player (if we are talking about null) but it seems to be rather - player vs alts game. It's rly nice to have cloaked alt in sb somhere in eve, and check this account couple times a day. If nothing happen, you can stay another day, week, month - if some ratter appear - you can kill him with some help from rats, without any problem. And it's called "pro" ? rotfl Alt war begin!!!
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Laurew
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Posted - 2010.04.17 13:00:00 -
[115]
Originally by: BzydaL yea - do something inteligent.. some example pls? hmm - maybe we should play hard tanked bs whole the time? no - because they can have covert cyno on board nad do hot-drop any time they want... but you never know. I thought it's the game for play player vs player (if we are talking about null) but it seems to be rather - player vs alts game. It's rly nice to have cloaked alt in sb somhere in eve, and check this account couple times a day. If nothing happen, you can stay another day, week, month - if some ratter appear - you can kill him with some help from rats, without any problem. And it's called "pro" ? rotfl Alt war begin!!!
how about a timer that starts once a cloak is activated, has a life line of say 30mins/1hr. if the pilot of the ship does nothing in those 30mins/1hr, then his cloak shuts off. if the pilot moves around, changes direction etc then the cloak remains active. solves the afk cloaker thing, keeps the covops ships as they are supposed to be everyone is happy.
as for ratting well, thats not hard either. be aligned and fit a neut instead of a cloak on your ravens. its really not that hard.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.04.17 13:07:00 -
[116]
"A counter to cloak"
Brains.
Oh, and btw, an AFK cloaker is harmless. It is the ones who are not away from the keyboard you need to worry about.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.17 13:09:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Marlona Sky "A counter to cloak"
Brains.
Oh, and btw, an AFK cloaker is harmless. It is the ones who are not away from the keyboard you need to worry about.
QFT:D
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Abbot Laarkin
Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks
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Posted - 2010.04.17 13:52:00 -
[118]
Originally by: BzydaL yea - do something inteligent.. some example pls?
Ok. (Example) Join a corp of experienced, intelligent players. Particularly those who know how to handle cloaked Bombers in their system. It also helps if these corp members accept the fact that 0.0 is above all an area in which co-operation is immensely beneficial, and subsequently will not tell you to "sod-off" if/ when you ask for an escort while mining/ ratting etc. while there is a cloaker in system. Accepting the fact that it may occasionally be required for you to return the favour is also a good idea, otherwise you may be labelled as an anti-social 'tard and asked to GTFO yourself.
Originally by: BzydaL hmm - maybe we should play hard tanked bs whole the time? no - because they can have covert cyno on board nad do hot-drop any time they want... but you never know.
Perhaps learning a little about what bombers (using SB's as example because you did) can and can't do would help you decide what ships to use, and how to fit them. Battleships, hard tanked or not, are not the only choice.
Originally by: BzydaL I thought it's the game for play player vs player (if we are talking about null) but it seems to be rather - player vs alts game.
Little confused here....You seem to accept the fact that 0.0 is about PvP, yet are complaining that you cannot PvE in safety because there is a potentially hostile player in system with you? Oh, and like it or not (personally I don't) Eve is always about Alts. You honestly expect me to believe that if you could probe out cloakers, then neither you nor your corp mates would train-up a probing Alt specifically for this? Alts are annoying, but they are the natural consequence of Eve's basic structure, accept and move on tbh.
Originally by: BzydaL It's rly nice to have cloaked alt in sb somhere in eve, and check this account couple times a day. If nothing happen, you can stay another day, week, month - if some ratter appear - you can kill him with some help from rats, without any problem.
Only if the ratter in question is simply incapable of accepting responsibility for the safety of his/ her internet pixels, and subsequently runs to the forums to demand that CCP change the game in such a way that they no longer have to fear the consequences of their own inadequacy. Anyone with half a clue how to play, and who is willing to seek out a corp of similar-minded people, has almost nothing to fear from an AFK cloaker. Alt or not, a reasonably trained bomber pilot is a valuable asset. Take enough precautions against ganks, and make sure that you give no other reason for the alt to stay (namely lots of amusing Local whines/ smack), and the alt will be moved somewhere more productive.
Originally by: BzydaL And it's called "pro" ? rotfl Alt war begin!!!
No. It's called Eve. Learn to play it and you will learn to love it.
----
Originally by: Sir Carnage
Originally by: Marko Riva Why does that read like they're all 12 and have an IQ of 37?
I was under the impression they were 37 and had an IQ of 12
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.04.17 14:41:00 -
[119]
Isn't it sad how many weak minded players we have in Eve now days.
Damn you evil afk cloakers, stop playing with their minds.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.17 14:47:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Mag's Isn't it sad how many weak minded players we have in Eve now days.
Damn you evil afk cloakers, stop playing with their minds.
It gets even more fun when you buy that mind control device from the sanshas. you can do very evil things with it ... e.g. turning them into spies!
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