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Marquis Zenas
I.X Research
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Posted - 2010.05.27 14:34:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Marquis Zenas on 27/05/2010 14:34:20
Originally by: Xylopia
What modules do I need to grind? You can tell me fast. what are you looking at?!
Send me 150 mil and I'll be able to assist -------------------------- How do you play the game?
Originally by: Le Skunk Spin an armarda of expensive ships, grandstand in local chat and post on forums
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Yiulian
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Posted - 2010.05.27 14:38:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Take the insurance fraud for instance. That is more or less the same thing. The basic system was flawed, creating a loophole where it paid to produce&destroy ships to get cash from an NPC agency which was more than the amount invested to produce the ship.
Insurance fraud is a valve of pressure, a mechanism to force a support level for minerals value. Plus it's controlled, that is you could not go "beyond" it: someone would just arbitrage away all the deltas. It's intended to act like it does and the devs had years to change it. Years = they had plenty to see exactly its properties and limits.
It's somewhat different from the case of using a collateral effect of a super-new feature to self amplify gains with no acceptable limit.
Ok I can accept that.
Equally, in my opinion, using a legal in-game mechanic (reprocessing) to take advantage of a mistake (if indeed it is one) by the devs is somewhat different than exploiting a bug in the code which lets you circumvent, say, appearing in local.
But I do see that in this case the potential for profits is massive and as such steps need to be taken. However I don't agree with the sentiment that people taking advantage should be burned at the stake as sinners, especially not in this game.
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General Bezelbub
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.05.27 14:41:00 -
[33]
This is a massive issue, CCP does need to fix it quickly, as it will ruin PI for months to come if not taken care of quickly. Checking out NPC trends in regions it hasnt hit the critical level of isk investment yet, but it could at any point.
btw, thanks akita T for buying my PI stuff^^
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.05.27 14:45:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Yiulian However I don't agree with the sentiment that people taking advantage should be burned at the stake as sinners, especially not in this game.
That is your inference. My statement of "roasting" implies some punitive action. It does not suggest anything as harshly as you represent. Not that I would be against it either. For instance, I applauded when Bill Mahr suggested that if we, the public, hung a few wall street bankers from billboards on I95 people might learn proper behavior from the example. If punitive action is no deterrent - again what is the point. And yes, I fully realize that I could be hoisted on my own petard. Which explains why I totally, and truly, avoid any possible negative interpretation of my actions. While arguing that x action shouldn't draw bans or punishment you are only able to argue that when you are NOT banned.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.05.27 14:49:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 14:52:12 Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 14:51:01 I fail to see how this invesment is justified.We're still quite far away from the major factor in this: removal of the npc orders.What are you going to do when they are removed and nobody buys your stuff for weeks?If i was a major alliance i'd do one very simple thing.
I'd buy least 4-5months worth of sov structure, pos guns, tower, labs and i wouldn't worry about not having them.The only people who will need pos stuff are industrialist corps and the demand will be far less then the supply.
In the meantime people would be undercutting each other trying to sell their tower on the market to brake it even.Whichever angle i look at it its a very risky investment.
The real profit from PI won't hit the shelves until there has been 2months from the removal of the npc orders which is my own speculative opinion.So i recommend strong hold. knowledge is power |
Business Ethics
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Posted - 2010.05.27 14:56:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate akita, shut up already, you're ruining my potential future margins
Pirates collect the tears of people they shoot at and pop... I collect the tears of countless random budding PIndustrialists I never will meet
I resemble this remark!
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:06:00 -
[37]
Btw i just noticed this in the Tyrannis issues thread: Originally by: Steve ThomasDestroying mission structures drops PI materials such as Water, Oxygen and synthetic oil.Granted its a trivial ammount.
By ccp oneiromancer:
Could you please file a bug report and mention the mission name and agent name, please? Thank you. knowledge is power |
Vilgan i'Lakin
Pirates and Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:09:00 -
[38]
Lots of OMG EXPLOIT shouts going on here, without anyone actually doing the math. Can you reprocess the small guns for cheap P4? Sure. 1 type of P4. Most of the other P4 mats are not acquired so easily. I did the math on reprocessing arrays/batteries to make other things and the profit wasn't worth the effort (imo). If you find it possible to undercut NPC prices now, what's the problem? Theoretically we are supposed to be doing that anyway in 2 weeks time when the command centers hit.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:15:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Vilgan i'Lakin Lots of OMG EXPLOIT shouts going on here, without anyone actually doing the math. Can you reprocess the small guns for cheap P4? Sure. 1 type of P4. Most of the other P4 mats are not acquired so easily. I did the math on reprocessing arrays/batteries to make other things and the profit wasn't worth the effort (imo). If you find it possible to undercut NPC prices now, what's the problem? Theoretically we are supposed to be doing that anyway in 2 weeks time when the command centers hit.
You didn't look very long or hard did you :)
I could spend 400mil on items, buy a BPO, make over 1B worth of products.. However I still consider this something CCP neglected and don't want to be "punished" for it.
Amarr for Life |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:25:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Lots of OMG EXPLOIT shouts going on here, without anyone actually doing the math.
The only one using caps here seem to be you.
Also, just because an exploit brings in bad profits (SencneS seems to differ with you) does not make it a non exploit.
This is what I don't like of EvE (posted a longer tantrum on Block's thread): in EvE if you are a jerk, a shark or worse, you are in the Nirvana. It's so NOT realistic that a sandbox only prizes the smart asses, the cheaters, the mongers. When I'll get out of this office later today, I don't expect someone to surely come out and kill me to take my 10 euros if given ANY opportunity. Somehow, the real sandbox is flexible enough to self regulate itself from the inside. Why EvE can't achieve something similar? It's like a shirt wearing too tight. Works, but you don't feel great. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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mental maverick
Duty. Duty. Private Security
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:35:00 -
[41]
Edited by: mental maverick on 27/05/2010 15:36:02
Quote: Theoretically we are supposed to be doing that anyway in 2 weeks time when the command centers hit.
If you really think that then you have obviously not done your math. If for example, on a decently skilled character, you want to produce and sell Robotics you would be able to make about 11k ish, maby half that in empire.
Now you want to undercut NPC prices, was that it? 6800x11000=74.8 mil. For an average month spending between half an hour to 1 h. Good luck with that, i'll be mining veldspar, spend as much time as you do and will be making twice as much.
edit: except i dont mine, but you get the point...
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:37:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Lots of OMG EXPLOIT shouts going on here, without anyone actually doing the math.
The only one using caps here seem to be you.
Also, just because an exploit brings in bad profits (SencneS seems to differ with you) does not make it a non exploit.
This is what I don't like of EvE (posted a longer tantrum on Block's thread): in EvE if you are a jerk, a shark or worse, you are in the Nirvana. It's so NOT realistic that a sandbox only prizes the smart asses, the cheaters, the mongers. When I'll get out of this office later today, I don't expect someone to surely come out and kill me to take my 10 euros if given ANY opportunity. Somehow, the real sandbox is flexible enough to self regulate itself from the inside. Why EvE can't achieve something similar? It's like a shirt wearing too tight. Works, but you don't feel great.
I guess one problem with a true sandbox is that we might end up with a rather dull, drone-filled mediocracy such as the rl sandbox has, in many ways, created. So it makes sense that there is an anti-sandbox bias towards the generation of conflict built into EvE (despite all the marketing-speak aimed at hooking us dull conformist mediocre drones) as conflict = drama, challenge and various other sorts of fun (also, as in rl, some non-fun aspects to conflict). Put in another way, there are built in structures that prevent the establishment of too much stability, law and order. My personal bete noire is the anti-sandbox structure that forbids scam calling on the sell order forum. I know there are more significant features within the game but this seems amongst the most blatant contradictions of the sandbox ethic.
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Yiulian
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:41:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Lots of OMG EXPLOIT shouts going on here, without anyone actually doing the math.
This is what I don't like of EvE (posted a longer tantrum on Block's thread): in EvE if you are a jerk, a shark or worse, you are in the Nirvana. It's so NOT realistic that a sandbox only prizes the smart asses, the cheaters, the mongers. When I'll get out of this office later today, I don't expect someone to surely come out and kill me to take my 10 euros if given ANY opportunity. Somehow, the real sandbox is flexible enough to self regulate itself from the inside. Why EvE can't achieve something similar? It's like a shirt wearing too tight. Works, but you don't feel great.
Because the real world is not a sandbox.
This is true for the internet in general and eve as an extension of that: Take away the rules, and people will be pricks. Apparently many people have some hidden need to be a-holes which is held back only by rules, laws and the opinion of other people.
Look at old school MMOs from before the carebear era, like UO. Not so different to the way eve works now.
The real world doesn't self-regulate, well it does to an extent but mostly it is regulated by the government. Back in the times when this wasn't so much the case, I expect it was much like eve. You'd be ambling along on your way from A to B with the goods you spent all week last week producing, and someone would rob you and possibly kill you. If you lived in a nice little farming town on the coast, the danes would come once a year and take all your stuff and possibly your children/wife as well.
Eve could easily achieve something similar but it would involve restricting the activities allowed in the sandbox, or only allowing them in certain areas of the sandbox. More realistic, yes, but I don't think most of the eve player base would like it much.
Survival of the fittest always works in the favor of the unscrupulous.
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Xylopia
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:44:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Marquis Zenas Edited by: Marquis Zenas on 27/05/2010 14:34:20
Originally by: Xylopia What modules do I need to grind? You can tell me fast. what are you looking at?!
Send me 150 mil and I'll be able to assist
Originally by: SencneS I still consider this something CCP neglected and don't want to be "punished" for it.
With this level of public awareness, CCP might not likely come down hard on people who took some advantage. However, it looks like cheese on a mousetrap to me, tbh. |
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:48:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 15:50:54
Originally by: Xylopia
Originally by: Marquis Zenas Edited by: Marquis Zenas on 27/05/2010 14:34:20
Originally by: Xylopia What modules do I need to grind? You can tell me fast. what are you looking at?!
Send me 150 mil and I'll be able to assist
Originally by: SencneS I still consider this something CCP neglected and don't want to be "punished" for it.
With this level of public awareness, CCP might not likely come down hard on people who took some advantage. However, it looks like cheese on a mousetrap to me, tbh.
Yea looks like the guy with the 90+ ravens that lost 3b+ due to insurance being nerfed. knowledge is power |
RAW23
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:56:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Yiulian
The real world doesn't self-regulate, well it does to an extent but mostly it is regulated by the government. Back in the times when this wasn't so much the case, I expect it was much like eve. You'd be ambling along on your way from A to B with the goods you spent all week last week producing, and someone would rob you and possibly kill you. If you lived in a nice little farming town on the coast, the danes would come once a year and take all your stuff and possibly your children/wife as well.
The existence of governments is an example of the real world being self-regulating, not a counter example. Governments and all other social structures, such as the law and the various mechanisms for enforcing it are sand box creations. Due to the lack of external, absolute restrictions on behaviour people were able to evolve societal patterns that could protect them from the Danes/robbers etc (although at great costs in other areas, such as personal freedom). In EvE this will never be allowed to happen because if fairly universal stability and security arose from the sandbox EvE would be broken as a game.
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Xylopia
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.05.27 16:03:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Grozen Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 15:57:48
Originally by: Xylopia
Originally by: Marquis Zenas Edited by: Marquis Zenas on 27/05/2010 14:34:20
Originally by: Xylopia What modules do I need to grind? You can tell me fast. what are you looking at?!
Send me 150 mil and I'll be able to assist
Originally by: SencneS I still consider this something CCP neglected and don't want to be "punished" for it.
With this level of public awareness, CCP might not likely come down hard on people who took some advantage. However, it looks like cheese on a mousetrap to me, tbh.
Yea looks like the guy with the 90+ ravens that lost 3b+ due to insurance being nerfed.
That guy w/ 90 some insured ravens? He's my alt. Btw, if u are in some sorta hole, I have some iskies to spare. Shoot me a mail. |
Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
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Posted - 2010.05.27 16:28:00 -
[48]
It's already pretty much to late. There are folks that have billions (if not trillions) that don't make much isk, buying lots of POS modules is apparently a pretty save bet, even if you don't reprocess them for parts. Chances are that a LOT of POS modules have already been bought up, and I doubt anyone will sell those for cheap. I even suspect that the folks that are already buying up POS structures will continue to keep the POS structures high in price by buying up cheap POS structures when they are not available anymore from NPC sources, this would be the smart thing to do.
PI resources are either going to take a while to gather or you have to interact with them constantly. The first is never going to give you your investment back (PI structures), the second is very time consuming and it could be that there are more fun/profitable ways to earn your isk.
To be honest I'm not touching this with a 10' pole, I just have the isk for such an action, too long term imho.
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wakalaka
Information And Entropy
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Posted - 2010.05.27 17:09:00 -
[49]
I'm more of Celadon's opinion. But how repair the damage? CCP has a very hot kartoffel on his hands here, which will dictate the future for the rest of the year of the PI feature.
1)Take NPC orders out. 2)Devaluation. Items reprocess into 100x P4. Adjust PI accordingly to create 100x P4.
This will deal for whoever has stocked P4.
A more complex way to deal for whoever has stocked POS modules (unreprocessed) is to differentiate between old POS modules and new POS modules, and nerf the reprocess of the old POS modules.
CCP should make up their mind very fast. Either way, I can already hear the traders' tears, or the PI farmer's tears. Each minute it will get worse if CCP doesn't clearly and publicly specify which will be the plan. Will they favour traders by allowing the reproccess and hard capping PI's earnings? Will they nerf traders, and allow PIs to expand the business? The battle is set and the destiny undisclosed (tum tum tum).
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Steve Celeste
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.05.27 17:09:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Cergorach Chances are that a LOT of POS modules have already been bought up,
...and then the NPC immediately spawns some more on the market.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.05.27 17:52:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Akita T Well, let's see... assuming all end-tier products would roughly cost the same (more on that later), there's this one structure where you get "P4" (PI tier 4, end-tier) at roughly 300k a piece, and there's some other structure where you get other variations of P4 at roughly 500k a piece, several others vary too... but if you do it with a control tower, you end up with one costing nearly 2 mil a piece. And those might not even be the most extreme sides of the equation. Still, the lowball so far (300k-ish) is worth remembering.
Oh, yeah, apparently, there's yet another one, which yields'em at around 180k a piece
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.05.27 18:07:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 18:09:12 There are ton of structures you can reprocess anyone brave enough to try the capital ship maint bay?Its only 900m looks like i'm heading to the test server. knowledge is power |
Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
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Posted - 2010.05.27 18:08:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Originally by: Cergorach Chances are that a LOT of POS modules have already been bought up,
...and then the NPC immediately spawns some more on the market.
I'm not saying that there is a limit to the number of modules you can buy. I'm saying that folks that have billions upon billions to spend on this market will probably already have bought what they can. The limit is the amount of isk they have to spent and when CCP pulls those items from the market. So even if CCP pulls those items from the market right now, the damage has been done already. There are mountains of cheap parts in storage somewhere... ;-)
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.05.27 18:13:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 18:13:38 The Pi item in question is wet mainframe isn't it knowledge is power |
Companion Trollin
You are going too fast
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Posted - 2010.05.27 18:52:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate akita, shut up already, you're ruining my potential future margins
Pirates collect the tears of people they shoot at and pop... I collect the tears of countless random budding PIndustrialists I never will meet
I love you, don't ever change.
♥
Originally by: CCP Shadow Off-topic posts dealing with sexual orientation have been removed. Please keep this discussion on-topic.
Thanks.
-- Shadow
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Valemora
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Posted - 2010.05.27 19:01:00 -
[56]
As a side note, faction guns give you 1 isogen!!!BUYBUYBUYBUY!!!! PROFITZ!
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Dzil
Caldari SafeHouse Investments of Tautology
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Posted - 2010.05.27 19:46:00 -
[57]
Fair game imo. When buying and selling become an exploit, I'm quitting EVE.
CCP should deseed this the way they did shuttles: it's an archaic design past it's need and an interruption to the current supply/demand. We had 47k players online last I logged in, this game has a sustainable playerbase to realize filling in the market niches once held by NPCs.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Boogie Bobby
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Posted - 2010.05.27 20:08:00 -
[58]
I could see this as being a way to bridge the gap between NPC seeds and PI getting enough traction to start filling demand but looks like it's way too much and could make PI not worthwhile til whatever people have stockpiled starts running out which could be awhile if all you billionaires that liquidated assets ahead of the mineral nerf are now going into this. Certainly after 2 weeks it will become a total clusterfark.
They probably intended to remove the NPC seeded modules and implement PI with the patch and when someone decided to delay PI by two weeks they overlooked this gigantic loophole.
I don't think they'll punish anyone, but maybe remove the NPC seeds early and just leave a gap on the market til PI production can allow players to fill it.
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Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
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Posted - 2010.05.27 22:14:00 -
[59]
This is a way of ccp seeding the market so that PI gets a soft start. As compared to people screaming that there aren't any pos, pos guns on the market, fuel or other issues. It also has the effect of removing a lot of isk from the game at the same time.
I also hear wet mainframes are in need of a cold shower.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.05.27 22:35:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Professor Leech This is a way of ccp seeding the market so that PI gets a soft start. As compared to people screaming that there aren't any pos, pos guns on the market, fuel or other issues. It also has the effect of removing a lot of isk from the game at the same time.
We are not talking about the existence of NPC sell orders for stuff, but about the IMBALANCES in reprocessing yields of various POS structures. It's not just as if they kept NPC sell orders up a while longer, it's as if they radically LOWERED the NPC sell order value. So, no, that's not a soft start for PI, it's the kick in the balls before even having any balls in the first place, ensuring that no balls grow any time soon.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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