Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:33:00 -
[1]
You probably heard the rumor, or noticed something really weird on the markets already. If not, tl;dr version : you can buy some really cheap POS modules and reprocess them into a metric truckload of "P4" (end-tier) PI products ; you can then either undercut the poor PIons (or was that Planeteers?) or build other POS structures and sell below NPC price
So... brainstorming session : * do you think CCP is likely to intervene in some way ? * if yes, do you think it will punish people that did it, or will it just roll over and let things stand as they are, merely plugging up the hole for future profiteering ? * if no, do you think it might be our evil trader obligation (the "we hate the working class, they're so silly, but we also love them, work my ants, work") to start a nice little pre-emptive PI failure cascade ? * just how fraked-up do you think PI will be because of this, ISK-wise, and for how long ? * better yet, how much ISK are you in for already?
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
mental maverick
Duty. Duty. Private Security
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:48:00 -
[2]
I have no idea if CCP will intervene or not but to me it seems pretty stupid keeping all the npc orders.
Why not remove them and launch PI and let the market adjust itself. Yes, it would have meant inflated prices and "OMGWTF WE HAS NO FUEL!!!" for alot of ppl. But wouldn't both those things be a ****ing splendid incentive for people to get started with PI?
|
Alice Celadon
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:50:00 -
[3]
[1600mm tinfoil hat]
Remember when I had a weird thread where I said the point of Tyrannis was for CCP to radically redistribute isk? It would be incredible if the reprocessing ability is purposeful, and CCP has created a massive one time isk black hole specifically designed to "cater" to the REI/massive industrialist crowd.
Here's how it would work:
1. Uber rich industrialists buy trillions of isk worth of cheap POS mods and reprocess them into end-tier PI products. 2. CCP does some last minute "tweaks" before seeding command centers, increasing both the output of PI and the amount of PI materials needed to manufacture end products. 3. The above constitutes a massive, targeted isk sink.
[/1600mm tinfoil hat]
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:52:00 -
[4]
Zero day patch exploits are one of the most MMO damaging events. I hope it'll get fixed ASAP and the undue income rolled back, like a serious gaming company should do.
(Yes, I keep dreaming). - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:54:00 -
[5]
Not indulging in ... loopholes is a major part of how I identify with myself. So, no I'm not doing it. Haven't put any money in it. I'd love to see CCP roast anyone that does.
However doing the right thing, historically, is the least rewarding option in Eve.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 10:57:00 -
[6]
By a simple skimming of this thread, the Reader will be able to exactly identify auditors, mongers and the other involved categories. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Marquis Zenas
I.X Research
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 11:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Akita T
So... brainstorming session : * do you think CCP is likely to intervene in some way ? * if yes, do you think it will punish people that did it, or will it just roll over and let things stand as they are, merely plugging up the hole for future profiteering ? * if no, do you think it might be our evil trader obligation (the "we hate the working class, they're so silly, but we also love them, work my ants, work") to start a nice little pre-emptive PI failure cascade ? * just how fraked-up do you think PI will be because of this, ISK-wise, and for how long ? * better yet, how much ISK are you in for already?
Time for some armchair opinion slinging:
1 - only by removing NPC sell orders for POS structures which they should have done on deployment. Interfering further would probably just cause threadnaughts (not that threadnaughts wont happen anyway). 2 - they speculated and lost - tough sh*t? 3 - I sense market manipulation 4 - No idea. There's a lot of POS stuff hanging about, probably a lot more now that you've posted this! Though it might have the unintend consequence of getting people to take down old POSes if they're worth a bit more. 5 - Market manipulation again? Or not. Maybe it is. Argh my head hurts! Safe to say that if Akita T has posted this then spreadsheets have been created, numbers crunched for months and someone(s) else is going to loose lots of ISK. -------------------------- How do you play the game?
Originally by: Le Skunk Spin an armarda of expensive ships, grandstand in local chat and post on forums
|
Titsy Normous
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 11:08:00 -
[8]
Wouldnt it be more profitable to simply horde the modules for sale at a later date once npcs stop selling them? Or am i missing somthing?
|
Yiulian
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 11:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Shar Tegral I'd love to see CCP roast anyone that does.
Ok I'm confused. Whenever someone comes onto MD or singatures, etc. and whines about something being unfair or having missed some opportunity or otherwise having fallen victim to basically anything the standard response is "Go back to WOW, noob"
So EVE is meant to be hardcore, a real ffa market economy driven only by the need to make ever more isk.
This is a market opportunity. Whether created by accident by CCP or on purpose for some dark scheme (hand me one of those tin foil hats please, thx) is really not relevant to the point.
Sure, if the imbalance created is too great, they should roll back, however annoying that would be. But I don't see why you would take that out on the ones who took advantage of an opportunity.
Also: PIons.. nice find!
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 11:09:00 -
[10]
I was tempted to wade into it, but then again... I'm reasonably well-off already ISK-wise with no particular rush to get much more, I happen to agree it does feel too much like an exploit to me, the mass of people that do it will probably mean there won't be that much of a profit to be had (still enough for a lot of people)... and last but not least I'd actually have to :effort: it all (i.e. haul stuff ; or better said, go on location to reprocess then make the hauling contracts). I hope CCP does something before June 8... however, chances are pretty slim IMO.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
|
Merouk Baas
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 11:11:00 -
[11]
Well, the original Akita T thread in General was fun, saw your reaction live as it happened and you edited and re-edited you OP. Thanks for that entertainment .
For this thread, if it doesn't feel like it's gonna be profitable (and most replies seem to agree to that), then it probably isn't, but if you have spare cash, you CAN invest some of it just in case. Just make it a side-investment; there will be other opportunities to get super-rich fast (play with mineral prices for example), so save your ISK for them.
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 11:29:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Merouk Baas Well, the original Akita T thread in General was fun, saw your reaction live as it happened and you edited and re-edited you OP. Thanks for that entertainment .
I tried to maintain most of that in the "updates" section, but I bet it was much more fun live with title changes too
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 11:49:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shar Tegral I'd love to see CCP roast anyone that does.
Originally by: Yiulian Ok I'm confused. Whenever someone [...] whines about something [...] the standard response is "Go back to WOW, noob"
I don't know about the rest of MD but you'll find that is never my standard response. For myself, I agree that CCP mix ups are an "opportunity" however in equal measure watching a 10 spot fall out of someone's pocket is also an "opportunity". For me, its an opportunity to tap the person on the shoulder and say, "Hey, you dropped this." Ditto with bugs, oversights, and errors. For me, the striving must be done on a level playing field. The best challenge(s) come from competing, or partnering, with people of good ethics. Besting someone of lesser character is, truly, a lesser accomplishments. Hmmmmm, I think I put it like this a long time ago: Capitalism without ethics is like marriage without sex. Possible, yes. Totally unsatisfying though.PS: Eve Search 4tw & Don't think me representative of MD or anywhere actually.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Yiulian
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 12:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Shar Tegral I'd love to see CCP roast anyone that does.
Originally by: Yiulian Ok I'm confused. Whenever someone [...] whines about something [...] the standard response is "Go back to WOW, noob"
I don't know about the rest of MD but you'll find that is never my standard response. For myself, I agree that CCP mix ups are an "opportunity" however in equal measure watching a 10 spot fall out of someone's pocket is also an "opportunity". For me, its an opportunity to tap the person on the shoulder and say, "Hey, you dropped this." Ditto with bugs, oversights, and errors. For me, the striving must be done on a level playing field. The best challenge(s) come from competing, or partnering, with people of good ethics. Besting someone of lesser character is, truly, a lesser accomplishments. Hmmmmm, I think I put it like this a long time ago: Capitalism without ethics is like marriage without sex. Possible, yes. Totally unsatisfying though.PS: Eve Search 4tw & Don't think me representative of MD or anywhere actually.
Haha nice analogy! I tend to agree, which is exactly why a completely free market economy with no proper regulatory system is bad. Recent developments in the American financial market are a nice example, but that is somewhat o/t.
From your replies in various threads I perhaps got a wrong impression which led me to assume a certain point of view on your part.
No offense intended.
My point of view remains however that while I would probably not personally part-take in this from an ethical point of view (in the same way that I don't part-take in can-flipping or other scams of dubious ethical nature), I think it would be hypocritical of CCP to punish people for exploiting a mistake THEY make, while simultaneously encouraging those same players to exploit the carelessness and mistakes of other players. They've made their own bed when it comes to that.
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 12:14:00 -
[15]
Heh, here's an even older version of the same thought. (Nice sometimes to see old names.)
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 12:16:00 -
[16]
It doesn't recover any of the 'Capital Construction Parts' through reprocessing, those are just 'Poof(tm)' gone.
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 12:29:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Ok I'm confused. Whenever someone comes onto MD or singatures, etc. and whines about something being unfair or having missed some opportunity or otherwise having fallen victim to basically anything the standard response is "Go back to WOW, noob"
Let me put it in a blunt way (like always):
- You come on MD crying you lost 2B because you bought 3-4 destroyers at 700M each.
or
- You come on MD crying you bought 10B worth of widgets and now with the expansion out, they are tanking instead of rising.
or
- You come on MD crying a guy outbidded you to extinction or owned you with a market manipulation.
In these cases you HTFU and learn to use the brain.
- You find out how to enter a system without appearing in local (happened few weeks ago)
or
- At zero day past <insert here big event, ie patch> you find how to trick the system into making you billions because some devs were chimpanzes.
or
- You find how to perma-crash a node with some trick...
If instead of informing the devs you practice these tricks then you are an exploiter no less than RMTers and should be banned.
One thing is to use brain to catch opportunities within the sandbox, another is to exploit opportunities drilling thru the sandbox.
Otherwise you deserve an excalation resulting in devs logging in game and self creating 10000 trillions ISK for themselves and patronizing you to get back to WoW if you don't like it. The mechanism is the same. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 12:40:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Yiulian From your replies in various threads I perhaps got a wrong impression which led me to assume a certain point of view on your part.
Mea culpa, it is fair to assume I'm hostile. I like to think I'm not but experience has shown me that my tone and style comes across as such... so fair to assume and all that.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Yiulian
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 12:44:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Yiulian on 27/05/2010 12:46:50 Edited by: Yiulian on 27/05/2010 12:45:41
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Let me put it in a blunt way (like always):
..explanation..
I fully understand what you're saying, I'm just not sure I agree 100% with such a black&white distinction.
Take the insurance fraud for instance. That is more or less the same thing. The basic system was flawed, creating a loophole where it paid to produce&destroy ships to get cash from an NPC agency which was more than the amount invested to produce the ship.
Personally, I fail to see the difference. They screwed up, they made an item whose reprocess value at current market prices is higher than its NPC cost.
1. Buy 2. Reprocess 3. ??? 4. Profit
imo..
Seriously though, it's all a matter of what you consider to be the borderline for exploiting.
For me, exploiting is using something that's BROKEN in the game code, such as being able to not appear in local and then using that against other players or for you're own enrichment.
This is not the same thing. Nothing is broken, they simply put the wrong numbers into the system, which is doubly stupid considering they were just fixing the other similar screw-up.
|
Steve Celeste
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 13:07:00 -
[20]
Well, finding out what pos structures to reprocess and rebuild into other structures to undercut npc prices didn't take very long :)
The big question for me is how efficient Planeteers will be at churning out products. Demand for towers and structures will remain roughly the same, so prices will skyrocket if they suck at PI, and fall if the Planeteers are really good at their job.
|
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 13:22:00 -
[21]
Its quite dangerous option imo cuz of 2 factors: 1.CCP might deem it exploit 2.0.0 space is rich of PI stuff even if theres not much industrialists in the big alliances i imagine it would not be long before major alliances begin dumping PI goo on the market aka crushing the pre-pi makers. knowledge is power |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 13:28:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Akita T on 27/05/2010 13:29:44
Copypasta from the other thread :
Well, let's see... assuming all end-tier products would roughly cost the same (more on that later), there's this one structure where you get "P4" (PI tier 4, end-tier) at roughly 300k a piece, and there's some other structure where you get other variations of P4 at roughly 500k a piece, several others vary too... but if you do it with a control tower, you end up with one costing nearly 2 mil a piece. And those might not even be the most extreme sides of the equation. Still, the lowball so far (300k-ish) is worth remembering.
Now, back to why P4 products would probably end up costing more or less the same - it's because 5 of 8 of the P4s are built from the same number of sub-components (3x 6xP3), and there is a small variation with the other 3 of 8 (2x 6xP3 + 40xP2), but that ends up being around 70% of the price of the other 5 (or thereabouts) overall resource-wise. The main deciding factor in price will be how much players value their time restarting extractors, hauling stuff between planets (you CAN NOT build a P4 with resources of a single planet - you can barely build a few of the P3s with the resources of a single planet, the rest of P3s require at least two planet types - it requires a combination of multiple planets to get that rolling).
Now, if I remember correctly, at least for those involved in P4 production, it goes like this: 3000x raw -> 20x P1 (every 30m in basic center) ; 2x 40x P1 -> 5x P2 (every 1h in advanced center) ; 2x 10x P2 -> 3x P3 (every 1h in advanced center) ; 3x 6x P3 -> 1x P4 (every 1h in high-tech center). Overall, to make P4s in continuous fire, you need the output of 6 advanced centers making P3s, each needing the output of 4 advanced centers making P2s (24 here plus 6 before makes 30), each of which needs the output of 2 basic centers (half cycle time, yay ; so 48 basic centers). Each basic center needs 6000 units of materials per hour (3000 every half-hour), and that's more than a typical extractor on a very good planet can provide. In fact, you can pretty much assume on average 2 or even 3 extractors per basic center (so 96-144 extractors total)... heck, let's make that a nice and round 120 extractors on average. So... hmmm... 1x P4 = 120 extractors (96000 MW, 24000 tf) + 48 basic factories (9600 MW, 38400 tf) + 30 advanced factories (21000 MW, 15000 tf) + 1 high-tech center (400 MW, 1100 tf)... plus all the other necessary amenities, like plenty of spaceports (the very least 6, probably much more) and all necessary links... umm, yeah, that's pretty much at the very upper limit of what a completely maxed-out character working the optimal set of decent-density-of-materials planets can pull off, by probably working for well over one hour each day (just restarting the extractors alone should take well over half an hour, probably closer to one full hour), probably even over two hours total if you also take into account the hauling to and from planets and so on and so forth. So, at best, almost two hours of grueling work each day, AND all the import/export taxes, you're left with at most 24 (probably just 23) P4 items to show for... so, let's be generous and say 15x P4 per worked hour.
I don't know about you, but I'd certainly NOT bother parting with my P4 for under 1 mil the very least (15 mil/hour), probably closer or over 2 mil a piece (30 mil/hour)... and even then it would feel like a rip-off. However, you can stockpile (some of) them at BARELY 300k a piece NOW.
TL;DR - soon after PI hits, you could be looking at anywhere from 250% to 500% profit from your shenenigans, if you're even a bit lucky... probably much more if you wait enough.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 13:47:00 -
[23]
akita, shut up already, you're ruining my potential future margins _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep! |
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 13:49:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 13:50:30 Sure sounds like nice profit on theory but since everything is NPC produced atm and you can buy truckload of it whats stoping everyone doing it minimizing the profit to bad lvls?
Also I'm sure many have noticed that you need to have Adv planetology only on 1 character for all your planets guess why:P?Training the command centers so you can be able to use lvl 4 takes less then a week per char.Now imagine a guy with 8 accs and each of his 24chars having lvl 4com centers, and ability to drop them on 5planets.
Combine this with the puny profits from t4 and i think you will get a very very ugly situation, T1 will actually cost more then t4 for few months.Because everyone will be looking to get out so he can cash his invesment. knowledge is power |
Olusegun Obasanjo
Minmatar CENTRAL BANK OF NIGERIA
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 13:51:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate akita, shut up already, you're ruining my potential future margins
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 13:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate akita, shut up already, you're ruining my potential future margins
Pirates collect the tears of people they shoot at and pop... I collect the tears of countless random budding PIndustrialists I never will meet
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 13:59:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Take the insurance fraud for instance. That is more or less the same thing. The basic system was flawed, creating a loophole where it paid to produce&destroy ships to get cash from an NPC agency which was more than the amount invested to produce the ship.
Insurance fraud is a valve of pressure, a mechanism to force a support level for minerals value. Plus it's controlled, that is you could not go "beyond" it: someone would just arbitrage away all the deltas. It's intended to act like it does and the devs had years to change it. Years = they had plenty to see exactly its properties and limits.
It's somewhat different from the case of using a collateral effect of a super-new feature to self amplify gains with no acceptable limit.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Xylopia
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 14:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Akita T TL;DR on the rest of the thread : soon after PI hits, you could be looking at anywhere from 250% to 500% profit from your shenenigans, if you're even a bit lucky... probably more if you wait enough AND CCP doesn't change stuff.
As a honest businessman who always deeply values business ethics, and has respect in his heart to those ones coming up w/ unusual ideas every now and then, I cannot partake malign exploits like this especially when CCP is most vulnerable.
Shame on you people! Shame is your second name!
...ok..whatever...
What modules do I need to grind? You can tell me fast. what are you looking at?! |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 14:33:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Steve Celeste The big question for me is how efficient Planeteers will be at churning out products.
I noticed what T was talking about when I looked at the Structure BPOs about 5 minutes after uptime. I chose to purchase the cheapest weapon and reprocess it, because like all things I just have to try. But that's as far as I went because I felt that was an exploit, and probably something CCP didn't intend. However, profit aside, there is a massive time sync here. To build a Control Tower takes a good amount of time, sure you get one cheap but by the time it's finished coming out of the cooker, PI will actually be released for real! And with the BPO costing 500mil you better hope you can sell 2 of em to recover the cost of the BPO.
I'm also in the process of building a mega Excel sheet that will capture everything very similar to my T3 which people would suck on semen to get! One thing I noticed is to build a POS it requires the most complex production chain from raw materials to finished goods in EVE. Looking at the control tower it requires an incredible amount of raw material, requires components which all require at least 5 stages of production.
Raw Material Mining *Carbon (The only thing on the market that has a "Production Info" tab but nothing in it. Forgot about? Accident? Left out for a reason?)
Level 1 Processing (These products are not actually listed in Planetary Interaction, Raw materials or Refined Commodities) *Water *Oxygen (You'll notice these are all current commodities listed in the Trade goods section of the market, however all are obtained by PI)
Refined Commodities Specialized Commodities Advance Commodities
Once you have Advance Commodities you can build POS structures.
You need each and every one of those at least -13- of them to build a Control Tower. Each and every one of those products is a result of going though the 5 stages of construction from raw material mining to finished goods.
Conclusion, POSs and POS structures are going to be EXTREMELY high priced due to complexity of production chain.
------------ This raises the valid question.. Why buy NPC, reprocess it, rebuild something else. For me you know what it comes to.... Buy some key POS mods because they are going to be really pricey..
Lets assume for a second that CCP leave reprocessing in unlike T3 which suffers from non-reprocessable items. This means that a majority of those that read this thread know sometimes it's cheaper to buy the products and rebuild different ones. T2 Components is a good one for sometimes. It's what is killing the T3 market as well, if we could reprocess subsystems melted nanofibers wouldn't be so expensive. So I'm going to assume CCP is going to leave reprocessing in.
So we're going to see things like Small Hybrid Blaster Arrays get reprocessed for the component because it's cheaper then buying the component from the market. This means some popular items like Labs, Component Arrays, Large weapons are pretty much going to dictate the price of components, which will dictate the price of the POSes. Smart marketing people will see the smaller less popular items be cheaper then material cost and either buy/relist or buy/reprocess/sell.
The price, that depends on how quick people can push out these level 5 production chained items. I'll see what it's like once I'm done with my excel.
Amarr for Life |
mental maverick
Duty. Duty. Private Security
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 14:33:00 -
[30]
So with Akitas price estimation and explanation of the fact that P4 is pretty laborious to produce, there seems to be quite a risk that large stockpiles of cheap P4 items will make PI not worth the effort at all for a long time ahead...
So not only did CCP **** up the best way to get PI off to a good start, with the incentives I posted earlier, but they may also have completely sabotaged it for another 6? months while stockpiles are being depleted..?
If that is the case, not removing NPC orders might have been one of the biggest mistake CCP has ever made, effectively crippling an entire expansion for what might be a long time after its release
Tbh, i'm having a hard time believing this even though it's right there on TQ...
|
|
Marquis Zenas
I.X Research
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 14:34:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Marquis Zenas on 27/05/2010 14:34:20
Originally by: Xylopia
What modules do I need to grind? You can tell me fast. what are you looking at?!
Send me 150 mil and I'll be able to assist -------------------------- How do you play the game?
Originally by: Le Skunk Spin an armarda of expensive ships, grandstand in local chat and post on forums
|
Yiulian
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 14:38:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Take the insurance fraud for instance. That is more or less the same thing. The basic system was flawed, creating a loophole where it paid to produce&destroy ships to get cash from an NPC agency which was more than the amount invested to produce the ship.
Insurance fraud is a valve of pressure, a mechanism to force a support level for minerals value. Plus it's controlled, that is you could not go "beyond" it: someone would just arbitrage away all the deltas. It's intended to act like it does and the devs had years to change it. Years = they had plenty to see exactly its properties and limits.
It's somewhat different from the case of using a collateral effect of a super-new feature to self amplify gains with no acceptable limit.
Ok I can accept that.
Equally, in my opinion, using a legal in-game mechanic (reprocessing) to take advantage of a mistake (if indeed it is one) by the devs is somewhat different than exploiting a bug in the code which lets you circumvent, say, appearing in local.
But I do see that in this case the potential for profits is massive and as such steps need to be taken. However I don't agree with the sentiment that people taking advantage should be burned at the stake as sinners, especially not in this game.
|
General Bezelbub
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 14:41:00 -
[33]
This is a massive issue, CCP does need to fix it quickly, as it will ruin PI for months to come if not taken care of quickly. Checking out NPC trends in regions it hasnt hit the critical level of isk investment yet, but it could at any point.
btw, thanks akita T for buying my PI stuff^^
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 14:45:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Yiulian However I don't agree with the sentiment that people taking advantage should be burned at the stake as sinners, especially not in this game.
That is your inference. My statement of "roasting" implies some punitive action. It does not suggest anything as harshly as you represent. Not that I would be against it either. For instance, I applauded when Bill Mahr suggested that if we, the public, hung a few wall street bankers from billboards on I95 people might learn proper behavior from the example. If punitive action is no deterrent - again what is the point. And yes, I fully realize that I could be hoisted on my own petard. Which explains why I totally, and truly, avoid any possible negative interpretation of my actions. While arguing that x action shouldn't draw bans or punishment you are only able to argue that when you are NOT banned.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 14:49:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 14:52:12 Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 14:51:01 I fail to see how this invesment is justified.We're still quite far away from the major factor in this: removal of the npc orders.What are you going to do when they are removed and nobody buys your stuff for weeks?If i was a major alliance i'd do one very simple thing.
I'd buy least 4-5months worth of sov structure, pos guns, tower, labs and i wouldn't worry about not having them.The only people who will need pos stuff are industrialist corps and the demand will be far less then the supply.
In the meantime people would be undercutting each other trying to sell their tower on the market to brake it even.Whichever angle i look at it its a very risky investment.
The real profit from PI won't hit the shelves until there has been 2months from the removal of the npc orders which is my own speculative opinion.So i recommend strong hold. knowledge is power |
Business Ethics
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 14:56:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate akita, shut up already, you're ruining my potential future margins
Pirates collect the tears of people they shoot at and pop... I collect the tears of countless random budding PIndustrialists I never will meet
I resemble this remark!
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 15:06:00 -
[37]
Btw i just noticed this in the Tyrannis issues thread: Originally by: Steve ThomasDestroying mission structures drops PI materials such as Water, Oxygen and synthetic oil.Granted its a trivial ammount.
By ccp oneiromancer:
Could you please file a bug report and mention the mission name and agent name, please? Thank you. knowledge is power |
Vilgan i'Lakin
Pirates and Ninjas
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 15:09:00 -
[38]
Lots of OMG EXPLOIT shouts going on here, without anyone actually doing the math. Can you reprocess the small guns for cheap P4? Sure. 1 type of P4. Most of the other P4 mats are not acquired so easily. I did the math on reprocessing arrays/batteries to make other things and the profit wasn't worth the effort (imo). If you find it possible to undercut NPC prices now, what's the problem? Theoretically we are supposed to be doing that anyway in 2 weeks time when the command centers hit.
|
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 15:15:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Vilgan i'Lakin Lots of OMG EXPLOIT shouts going on here, without anyone actually doing the math. Can you reprocess the small guns for cheap P4? Sure. 1 type of P4. Most of the other P4 mats are not acquired so easily. I did the math on reprocessing arrays/batteries to make other things and the profit wasn't worth the effort (imo). If you find it possible to undercut NPC prices now, what's the problem? Theoretically we are supposed to be doing that anyway in 2 weeks time when the command centers hit.
You didn't look very long or hard did you :)
I could spend 400mil on items, buy a BPO, make over 1B worth of products.. However I still consider this something CCP neglected and don't want to be "punished" for it.
Amarr for Life |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 15:25:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Lots of OMG EXPLOIT shouts going on here, without anyone actually doing the math.
The only one using caps here seem to be you.
Also, just because an exploit brings in bad profits (SencneS seems to differ with you) does not make it a non exploit.
This is what I don't like of EvE (posted a longer tantrum on Block's thread): in EvE if you are a jerk, a shark or worse, you are in the Nirvana. It's so NOT realistic that a sandbox only prizes the smart asses, the cheaters, the mongers. When I'll get out of this office later today, I don't expect someone to surely come out and kill me to take my 10 euros if given ANY opportunity. Somehow, the real sandbox is flexible enough to self regulate itself from the inside. Why EvE can't achieve something similar? It's like a shirt wearing too tight. Works, but you don't feel great. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
|
mental maverick
Duty. Duty. Private Security
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 15:35:00 -
[41]
Edited by: mental maverick on 27/05/2010 15:36:02
Quote: Theoretically we are supposed to be doing that anyway in 2 weeks time when the command centers hit.
If you really think that then you have obviously not done your math. If for example, on a decently skilled character, you want to produce and sell Robotics you would be able to make about 11k ish, maby half that in empire.
Now you want to undercut NPC prices, was that it? 6800x11000=74.8 mil. For an average month spending between half an hour to 1 h. Good luck with that, i'll be mining veldspar, spend as much time as you do and will be making twice as much.
edit: except i dont mine, but you get the point...
|
RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 15:37:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Lots of OMG EXPLOIT shouts going on here, without anyone actually doing the math.
The only one using caps here seem to be you.
Also, just because an exploit brings in bad profits (SencneS seems to differ with you) does not make it a non exploit.
This is what I don't like of EvE (posted a longer tantrum on Block's thread): in EvE if you are a jerk, a shark or worse, you are in the Nirvana. It's so NOT realistic that a sandbox only prizes the smart asses, the cheaters, the mongers. When I'll get out of this office later today, I don't expect someone to surely come out and kill me to take my 10 euros if given ANY opportunity. Somehow, the real sandbox is flexible enough to self regulate itself from the inside. Why EvE can't achieve something similar? It's like a shirt wearing too tight. Works, but you don't feel great.
I guess one problem with a true sandbox is that we might end up with a rather dull, drone-filled mediocracy such as the rl sandbox has, in many ways, created. So it makes sense that there is an anti-sandbox bias towards the generation of conflict built into EvE (despite all the marketing-speak aimed at hooking us dull conformist mediocre drones) as conflict = drama, challenge and various other sorts of fun (also, as in rl, some non-fun aspects to conflict). Put in another way, there are built in structures that prevent the establishment of too much stability, law and order. My personal bete noire is the anti-sandbox structure that forbids scam calling on the sell order forum. I know there are more significant features within the game but this seems amongst the most blatant contradictions of the sandbox ethic.
|
Yiulian
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 15:41:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Lots of OMG EXPLOIT shouts going on here, without anyone actually doing the math.
This is what I don't like of EvE (posted a longer tantrum on Block's thread): in EvE if you are a jerk, a shark or worse, you are in the Nirvana. It's so NOT realistic that a sandbox only prizes the smart asses, the cheaters, the mongers. When I'll get out of this office later today, I don't expect someone to surely come out and kill me to take my 10 euros if given ANY opportunity. Somehow, the real sandbox is flexible enough to self regulate itself from the inside. Why EvE can't achieve something similar? It's like a shirt wearing too tight. Works, but you don't feel great.
Because the real world is not a sandbox.
This is true for the internet in general and eve as an extension of that: Take away the rules, and people will be pricks. Apparently many people have some hidden need to be a-holes which is held back only by rules, laws and the opinion of other people.
Look at old school MMOs from before the carebear era, like UO. Not so different to the way eve works now.
The real world doesn't self-regulate, well it does to an extent but mostly it is regulated by the government. Back in the times when this wasn't so much the case, I expect it was much like eve. You'd be ambling along on your way from A to B with the goods you spent all week last week producing, and someone would rob you and possibly kill you. If you lived in a nice little farming town on the coast, the danes would come once a year and take all your stuff and possibly your children/wife as well.
Eve could easily achieve something similar but it would involve restricting the activities allowed in the sandbox, or only allowing them in certain areas of the sandbox. More realistic, yes, but I don't think most of the eve player base would like it much.
Survival of the fittest always works in the favor of the unscrupulous.
|
Xylopia
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 15:44:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Marquis Zenas Edited by: Marquis Zenas on 27/05/2010 14:34:20
Originally by: Xylopia What modules do I need to grind? You can tell me fast. what are you looking at?!
Send me 150 mil and I'll be able to assist
Originally by: SencneS I still consider this something CCP neglected and don't want to be "punished" for it.
With this level of public awareness, CCP might not likely come down hard on people who took some advantage. However, it looks like cheese on a mousetrap to me, tbh. |
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 15:48:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 15:50:54
Originally by: Xylopia
Originally by: Marquis Zenas Edited by: Marquis Zenas on 27/05/2010 14:34:20
Originally by: Xylopia What modules do I need to grind? You can tell me fast. what are you looking at?!
Send me 150 mil and I'll be able to assist
Originally by: SencneS I still consider this something CCP neglected and don't want to be "punished" for it.
With this level of public awareness, CCP might not likely come down hard on people who took some advantage. However, it looks like cheese on a mousetrap to me, tbh.
Yea looks like the guy with the 90+ ravens that lost 3b+ due to insurance being nerfed. knowledge is power |
RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 15:56:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Yiulian
The real world doesn't self-regulate, well it does to an extent but mostly it is regulated by the government. Back in the times when this wasn't so much the case, I expect it was much like eve. You'd be ambling along on your way from A to B with the goods you spent all week last week producing, and someone would rob you and possibly kill you. If you lived in a nice little farming town on the coast, the danes would come once a year and take all your stuff and possibly your children/wife as well.
The existence of governments is an example of the real world being self-regulating, not a counter example. Governments and all other social structures, such as the law and the various mechanisms for enforcing it are sand box creations. Due to the lack of external, absolute restrictions on behaviour people were able to evolve societal patterns that could protect them from the Danes/robbers etc (although at great costs in other areas, such as personal freedom). In EvE this will never be allowed to happen because if fairly universal stability and security arose from the sandbox EvE would be broken as a game.
|
Xylopia
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 16:03:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Grozen Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 15:57:48
Originally by: Xylopia
Originally by: Marquis Zenas Edited by: Marquis Zenas on 27/05/2010 14:34:20
Originally by: Xylopia What modules do I need to grind? You can tell me fast. what are you looking at?!
Send me 150 mil and I'll be able to assist
Originally by: SencneS I still consider this something CCP neglected and don't want to be "punished" for it.
With this level of public awareness, CCP might not likely come down hard on people who took some advantage. However, it looks like cheese on a mousetrap to me, tbh.
Yea looks like the guy with the 90+ ravens that lost 3b+ due to insurance being nerfed.
That guy w/ 90 some insured ravens? He's my alt. Btw, if u are in some sorta hole, I have some iskies to spare. Shoot me a mail. |
Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 16:28:00 -
[48]
It's already pretty much to late. There are folks that have billions (if not trillions) that don't make much isk, buying lots of POS modules is apparently a pretty save bet, even if you don't reprocess them for parts. Chances are that a LOT of POS modules have already been bought up, and I doubt anyone will sell those for cheap. I even suspect that the folks that are already buying up POS structures will continue to keep the POS structures high in price by buying up cheap POS structures when they are not available anymore from NPC sources, this would be the smart thing to do.
PI resources are either going to take a while to gather or you have to interact with them constantly. The first is never going to give you your investment back (PI structures), the second is very time consuming and it could be that there are more fun/profitable ways to earn your isk.
To be honest I'm not touching this with a 10' pole, I just have the isk for such an action, too long term imho.
|
wakalaka
Information And Entropy
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 17:09:00 -
[49]
I'm more of Celadon's opinion. But how repair the damage? CCP has a very hot kartoffel on his hands here, which will dictate the future for the rest of the year of the PI feature.
1)Take NPC orders out. 2)Devaluation. Items reprocess into 100x P4. Adjust PI accordingly to create 100x P4.
This will deal for whoever has stocked P4.
A more complex way to deal for whoever has stocked POS modules (unreprocessed) is to differentiate between old POS modules and new POS modules, and nerf the reprocess of the old POS modules.
CCP should make up their mind very fast. Either way, I can already hear the traders' tears, or the PI farmer's tears. Each minute it will get worse if CCP doesn't clearly and publicly specify which will be the plan. Will they favour traders by allowing the reproccess and hard capping PI's earnings? Will they nerf traders, and allow PIs to expand the business? The battle is set and the destiny undisclosed (tum tum tum).
|
Steve Celeste
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 17:09:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Cergorach Chances are that a LOT of POS modules have already been bought up,
...and then the NPC immediately spawns some more on the market.
|
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 17:52:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Akita T Well, let's see... assuming all end-tier products would roughly cost the same (more on that later), there's this one structure where you get "P4" (PI tier 4, end-tier) at roughly 300k a piece, and there's some other structure where you get other variations of P4 at roughly 500k a piece, several others vary too... but if you do it with a control tower, you end up with one costing nearly 2 mil a piece. And those might not even be the most extreme sides of the equation. Still, the lowball so far (300k-ish) is worth remembering.
Oh, yeah, apparently, there's yet another one, which yields'em at around 180k a piece
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 18:07:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 18:09:12 There are ton of structures you can reprocess anyone brave enough to try the capital ship maint bay?Its only 900m looks like i'm heading to the test server. knowledge is power |
Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 18:08:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Originally by: Cergorach Chances are that a LOT of POS modules have already been bought up,
...and then the NPC immediately spawns some more on the market.
I'm not saying that there is a limit to the number of modules you can buy. I'm saying that folks that have billions upon billions to spend on this market will probably already have bought what they can. The limit is the amount of isk they have to spent and when CCP pulls those items from the market. So even if CCP pulls those items from the market right now, the damage has been done already. There are mountains of cheap parts in storage somewhere... ;-)
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 18:13:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 18:13:38 The Pi item in question is wet mainframe isn't it knowledge is power |
Companion Trollin
You are going too fast
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 18:52:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate akita, shut up already, you're ruining my potential future margins
Pirates collect the tears of people they shoot at and pop... I collect the tears of countless random budding PIndustrialists I never will meet
I love you, don't ever change.
♥
Originally by: CCP Shadow Off-topic posts dealing with sexual orientation have been removed. Please keep this discussion on-topic.
Thanks.
-- Shadow
|
Valemora
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 19:01:00 -
[56]
As a side note, faction guns give you 1 isogen!!!BUYBUYBUYBUY!!!! PROFITZ!
|
Dzil
Caldari SafeHouse Investments of Tautology
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 19:46:00 -
[57]
Fair game imo. When buying and selling become an exploit, I'm quitting EVE.
CCP should deseed this the way they did shuttles: it's an archaic design past it's need and an interruption to the current supply/demand. We had 47k players online last I logged in, this game has a sustainable playerbase to realize filling in the market niches once held by NPCs.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Boogie Bobby
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 20:08:00 -
[58]
I could see this as being a way to bridge the gap between NPC seeds and PI getting enough traction to start filling demand but looks like it's way too much and could make PI not worthwhile til whatever people have stockpiled starts running out which could be awhile if all you billionaires that liquidated assets ahead of the mineral nerf are now going into this. Certainly after 2 weeks it will become a total clusterfark.
They probably intended to remove the NPC seeded modules and implement PI with the patch and when someone decided to delay PI by two weeks they overlooked this gigantic loophole.
I don't think they'll punish anyone, but maybe remove the NPC seeds early and just leave a gap on the market til PI production can allow players to fill it.
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 22:14:00 -
[59]
This is a way of ccp seeding the market so that PI gets a soft start. As compared to people screaming that there aren't any pos, pos guns on the market, fuel or other issues. It also has the effect of removing a lot of isk from the game at the same time.
I also hear wet mainframes are in need of a cold shower.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 22:35:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Professor Leech This is a way of ccp seeding the market so that PI gets a soft start. As compared to people screaming that there aren't any pos, pos guns on the market, fuel or other issues. It also has the effect of removing a lot of isk from the game at the same time.
We are not talking about the existence of NPC sell orders for stuff, but about the IMBALANCES in reprocessing yields of various POS structures. It's not just as if they kept NPC sell orders up a while longer, it's as if they radically LOWERED the NPC sell order value. So, no, that's not a soft start for PI, it's the kick in the balls before even having any balls in the first place, ensuring that no balls grow any time soon.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
|
The Breadmaster
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 22:35:00 -
[61]
CCP has spit in the face of their hardwork on Tyrannis.
If its possible in Eve, how then can it be an exploit... buying, reprocessing, selling... nothing unusual about it. But its stupid, and whatever worth PI was going to have for entry level players is gone.
Tyrannis = insurance nerf and eve economy fumble.
Sigh...
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 22:48:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 22:53:44 Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 22:51:39 Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 22:48:49 The only way Tyrannis will have a normal start is if we tell everyone who has money how to lose it.So heres a hint examine the building reqs for tower.Now examine the recycle materials for Rapid equipment assembly array and if in doubt try to guess why 2.7k of them sold today about 24bil and 300m worth of stock. For those who are dumb recycle produce at planet 250% profit=zomg ccp what have you done
I'm not going to guess how many ppl entered but once npc order bites the dust its going to be one hell a fight.Gallente towers for 100m? knowledge is power |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 22:55:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Grozen Rapid equipment assembly array
Cyno gen beacon and cyno jammer are also looking pretty decent. One is better than REAA, the other is worse than REEA, but they're in the same rough ballpark, and you can get a nice spread of P4s by mixing and matching. There might be more, not just those three
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 22:55:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Professor Leech This is a way of ccp seeding the market so that PI gets a soft start. As compared to people screaming that there aren't any pos, pos guns on the market, fuel or other issues. It also has the effect of removing a lot of isk from the game at the same time.
We are not talking about the existence of NPC sell orders for stuff, but about the IMBALANCES in reprocessing yields of various POS structures. It's not just as if they kept NPC sell orders up a while longer, it's as if they radically LOWERED the NPC sell order value. So, no, that's not a soft start for PI, it's the kick in the balls before even having any balls in the first place, ensuring that no balls grow any time soon.
You seem rather angry about this. I do recall chasing after your alt's pod in 0.0 a long time ago during the first delve invasion. You stated that you make most of your profits around patch time, are you sure that you don't have a vested interest here?
On the flip side the "cheap" modules are going to be very expensive after the patch due to their construction requirements.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:07:00 -
[65]
Thx for the heads up CSJ defo looking to be the hot stuff atm with jesus fking 12.2k units sold=87b some deep pocket invesment here... I'm still wondering if this is going to be total market crash after everyone and his mother put towers/labs up for sale. knowledge is power |
The Breadmaster
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:07:00 -
[66]
You dont even have to do the math... its blatantly obvious from the forge volumes on the hot-to-reprocess bits.
Moon miner Rapid equip cyno sys jammer
Those are the three to mix and match for building towers. Key ingredients are integrity response drone, nano factory, and sterile conduits.
And no 100M is way off the mark per tower. You can build them at 100M and have oodles of leftovers... more like 100M for large tower + ALL bits (guns, reactors, whatever).
+1 for server roll back
I doubt they have the manpower to rework their entire economic model for Tyrannis to account for it at this point.
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:09:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Professor Leech You seem rather angry about this.
Another expansion basically wasted from a profitability-for-the-general-public-as-opposed-to-just-people-like-me before it even started ? You bet I'm angry!
Quote: You stated that you make most of your profits around patch time, are you sure that you don't have a vested interest here?
Yeah, if CCP doesn't fix it soon, or at least acknowledges it as a problem that needs fixing, I fully intend to exploit the **** out of it. I still have time until June 8. And, this time, it would actually involve some marginal effort on my part (which I'm not really keen to make). You know, as opposed to my usual "ready spreadsheets, several hours ; put up orders = 5 minutes, log back next day to modify orders = 5 minutes until done, wait a couple of months, put up orders = 5 minutes, log back next day to modify orders = 5 minutes until done". I'm still holding a tiny sliver of hope that they'll change it, but given CCP's past history, I'm not convinced it even has a half-decent chance of happening.
Quote: On the flip side the "cheap" modules are going to be very expensive after the patch due to their construction requirements.
Except that people would just keep enough of them stockpiled unreprocessed, so they won't go up TOO much in price. Not much more than their components anyway, unless CCP changes their build requirements.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:13:00 -
[68]
So in theory we probably won't be able to see the true impact of this expansion for at least another 7months from now when the supply would probably start wearing down.Basically the richer just got richer if i had 100b atm i'd totally hold for year before i even think of building this. knowledge is power |
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:14:00 -
[69]
I understand completely. However, you did request that PI be delayed and this is the result. :ccp:
Time to run this into the ground.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:19:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 23:20:07 Tbh i'm tempted like everyone else to poor some isk into this but the stuff i do is safe meaning i know that what i do won't get me in trouble and this.... just screams nerf me.
I'd wait until june 7 before i decide cuz besides one reply to the big question that this is not deemed exploit yet isn't enough i have to see someone else make a post on the forums from the devs because if they do nerf it then that will be A LOT of PAIN for many wallets. knowledge is power |
|
cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:25:00 -
[71]
Now the horse has bolted you can't move everything back.
CCP will only be able to handle this one way (which they have done in the past), which is to nerf what the 3 oddballs reprocess into.
Most of the POS reprocessing is logical and the build requirements mainly even out (territorial claim unit/jump bridge/mobile lab all need same components).
There are 3 modules that have caused a huge issue. The fact is there will be industrialists who will reprocess enough stuff to last a year or so, making PI a waste of time to actually put anything on planet.
If you want cheap PI stuff buy it now and reprocess before the mini-patch alters reprocessing loot.
|
mental maverick
Duty. Duty. Private Security
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:28:00 -
[72]
Edited by: mental maverick on 27/05/2010 23:35:44 Edited by: mental maverick on 27/05/2010 23:32:04 What would a nerf be if they decide to go that way?
More yield from extractors? That would still make POS structures ludicrously cheap wouldn't it?
|
Thanatoe
Fairlight Corp
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:31:00 -
[73]
nerfing the three items that give alot of P4 loot. Drop their returns on reprocessing. At least for the next two weeks.
They really need too.
God knows how they can sort out the bilions already spent on Pos mods today.
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:31:00 -
[74]
Some of the modules involved may or may not require rebalancing with respect to their build requirements. Unless, of course, they are intended to become more expensive after the next patch. This could be intended either way.
On the flip side it has generated a lot of interest in PI. Now that I have the spreadsheets for this I'm marginally interested in PI whereas previously I didn't care.
The design of PI has some depth and the production process should help PI products retain value in a robust manner (despite the current influx of P4 products). Though there are probably a few people geared up to milk the system right after the patch who have been nerfed by this.
That and the tears are fantastic.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:32:00 -
[75]
Originally by: mental maverick What would a nerf be if they decide to go that way?
More yield from extractors? That would still make POS structures ludicrously cheap wouldn't it?
No, just change what REAA, cyno jammer, cyno generator array and moon miner process into. At the moment they will be very expensive to make, but at present are cheap to buy and reprocess (relatively).
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:32:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 23:34:32 The only way to counter it would be to boost the production of tier 3 and 4 products by huge amounts.
Meaning they could increase both extractor outputs and facilities outputs and building for example tier1 will make 1k of tier 2, t2 will make 500 of t3 and t3 about200 of t4 and it could destroy peoples wallets in a snap.
So hell no i'm puting my cash into this yet.
Other than that what cosmo said and i could also add they could also increase the npc price of the 3said cash cows to like 100m p/u but that's an after effect.My first theory is the only situation that will impact present amounts bought now. knowledge is power |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:33:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Professor Leech I understand completely. However, you did request that PI be delayed and this is the result. :ccp:
This could still have all been prevented by TEMPORARILY removing the ability to reprocess POS stuff as soon as the issue became public knowledge.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
mental maverick
Duty. Duty. Private Security
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:35:00 -
[78]
Quote: No, just change what REAA, cyno jammer, cyno generator array and moon miner process into. At the moment they will be very expensive to make, but at present are cheap to buy and reprocess (relatively).
Wouldnt doing it that way let those who have allready bought and reprocessed to keep their stockpile. That wouldn't help making PI worth while for a long time if the stockpiles get to big before they nerf it...?
|
JitaPriceChecker2
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:36:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Professor Leech I understand completely. However, you did request that PI be delayed and this is the result. :ccp:
This could still have all been prevented by TEMPORARILY removing the ability to reprocess POS stuff as soon as the issue became public knowledge.
Indeed , If infact CCP were listening to their customers they would do it the moment akita made first topics.
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:36:00 -
[80]
On the up side; demand for couriers has probably gone up.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:38:00 -
[81]
Originally by: mental maverick
Quote: No, just change what REAA, cyno jammer, cyno generator array and moon miner process into. At the moment they will be very expensive to make, but at present are cheap to buy and reprocess (relatively).
Wouldnt doing it that way let those who have allready bought and reprocessed to keep their stockpile. That wouldn't help making PI worth while for a long time if the stockpiles get to big before they nerf it...?
Exactly that wouldn't help at all the only way to nerf it is the one i posted above.Presently Pi is not worth doing for anything else besides pos fuel and even that can be bought in fairly large amounts to keep them running for year before you even need to look for them. knowledge is power |
Thanatoe
Fairlight Corp
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:38:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Professor Leech I understand completely. However, you did request that PI be delayed and this is the result. :ccp:
This could still have all been prevented by TEMPORARILY removing the ability to reprocess POS stuff as soon as the issue became public knowledge.
Totally agree there Akita. Would solve alot of problems actually.
|
cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:43:00 -
[83]
So far today:
1. About 12,000 units of Cyno System Jammer purchased in Forge region 2. About 3,000 units of Rapid Equipment Assembly Array purchased in Forge region
It would be almost impossible to wipe all the reprocessing jobs, as people have probably set up manufacturing jobs with the loot, paid the station fees for starting the jobs, market sales, etc.
Mini-nerf in what the above 2 items re-processes into coming to Eve in the next 2-3 days. The window of opportunity will close.
So market effects:
1. Price crash for most POS items initially as people clear the inventory. 2. PI will be unprofitable until inventory is cleared from this reprocessing rush 3. Market won't settle down for many months.
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:45:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Professor Leech On the up side; demand for couriers has probably gone up.
WAY up, for sure. I mean, damn, there must be close to 2 billion m^3 of materials that need to be transported, and it's likely to go up much more in the weekend, I wouldn't exclude 10 or even 20 bil m^3 total before Monday.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:47:00 -
[85]
If they change the output of everything aka t1 makes 2k t2 and visa versa it will be hell for everyone involved.It has been 2days after deployment and this is like playing with fire.Are ccp that stupid to leave things as they are?and what makes you certain cosmo that they will not do anything besides preventing further abuse? knowledge is power |
mental maverick
Duty. Duty. Private Security
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:50:00 -
[86]
I'm kinda curious how much damage have allready been done, how long would stockpiles last going by what has been bought and reprocessed in Forge today?
Akita, your good with numbers, go go go!
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:51:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Grozen It has been 2days after deployment and this is like playing with fire.Are ccp that stupid to leave things as they are?and what makes you certain cosmo that they will not do anything besides preventing further abuse?
They seldom revert mistakes AFTER they happen. Yes, it's somewhat risky, but not how you make it sound - worst case scenario is that you get slightly less than what you invested back, but much more likely, far less profit than you expected. Still, a decent chance of 15-20% profit on a multi-billion investment over 3-4 months, with minimal chance of loss... how could you pass this up ?
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:55:00 -
[88]
From The Forge numbers there could be enough products to produce roughly 15,000 large pos. In rough terms minus the cap parts.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.27 23:58:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 00:04:01 Edited by: Grozen on 27/05/2010 23:59:43 I'm not saying i don't want free cash everyone does.But this could also be the first ever CCP rage on players that does direct big dmg aka wallet ****, ban and so on.I certainly don't wanna be in there IF it happens.
There's first time for everything and somehow even as you say ccp revert mistakes after they happen this is not a small mistake.
Even if a nerf comes in the next 5days people would have already bought close to trillion of PI stuff making PI useless not for year but at least for 3years ahead.
Somehow i don't think they will leave the situation without taking severe measures if they care for their expansion as much as they say they do.
Last i read they have separate team specially for PI and i can't imagine how important that is to them because PI is directly linked to DUST.
In short:
I'm scared.
edit: CSJ volume bought just jumped by 7b Also whats stoping ccp from making t1=t4 and t4=t1? knowledge is power |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 00:05:00 -
[90]
Copypasta from the other thread:
Originally by: Bellum Eternus I can see alliances easily dumping half a TRILLION ISK EACH into this if it's allowed to continue, which it will be, because CCP isn't fast enough to fix it. This could well end up being one of the worst CCP f*ck ups in the history of the game. Again, hilarious.
I nominate PIPOCALYPSE-NOW! for the "Worst CCP Screwup EVER" Award Let's recap : lowering value of most POS/outpost/sov related things almost one order of magnitude PLUS almost one entire expansion rendered pointless.
Any other contenders ? Maybe boot.ini, but that one wasn't nearly half as bad.
Originally by: Blane Xero Chances of this being reverted/calles a sploit/not being touched and destroying PI, in order of chance of happening please? Need to see if its worth jumping into this only to find out 19h later its been plugged and i now have a few assets i don't need.
Not being touched and PI gone up in flames : 55% Reprocess freeze and/or component makeup altering : 25% Being lightly altered so PI gets barely by : 15% (it's quite difficult at this point) Server rollback : 5% (never happened before, doubt it will ever happen)
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 00:06:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Professor Leech on 28/05/2010 00:07:32 That's a lot of fear mongering for one post. How many freighter loads have you sent to jita?
e: post got paged. I'm looking at you Grozen.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
Steve Thomas
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 00:06:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Professor Leech From The Forge numbers there could be enough products to produce roughly 15,000 large pos. In rough terms minus the cap parts.
add in the other regions Ive checked, well lets just say the developers at CCP now have a product thats suposed to tie into Dust. . . that has almost no reason for anyone to toutch any time soon
There had better be the Dev blog from G-D very soon and I dont meean Soon(tm) Im talking monday.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* a (Long) Guide to Pi
|
mental maverick
Duty. Duty. Private Security
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 00:09:00 -
[93]
If your numbers are correct Prof. Leech, and estimated demand of large towers at 50 per day in forge, that would mean there are 300 days worth of large towers.
Haven't checked other POS mods demand but this is from the first day of reprocessing. If this goes on for another 2-3 days there could be an entire year worth of POS mods in stockpile before PI hits.
I believe a, oops , is in order
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 00:13:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 00:16:03 Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 00:14:25
Originally by: Professor Leech Edited by: Professor Leech on 28/05/2010 00:07:32 That's a lot of fear mongering for one post. How many freighter loads have you sent to jita?
e: post got paged. I'm looking at you Grozen.
Trust me none and i'm being honest and serious, also evil.....I filled a petition today under exploits for this to see if i can get an answer(and i did get 1 which was"your petition is filled in the wrong place wait while we redirect it and then nothing happened) and possibly destroy the already bought amounts of PI stuff.
Yes i wanna hurt people if i was ccp dev you'd already be crying over your wallet, but i'm not so i'm still trying to bring their attention to the matter and if they say lol noob we don't care, well i have no reason then not to join the bandwagon with whatever i got spare in my wallet
I'm not a big PI fan but this is giving unfair advantage to some people and destroying the expansion.
edit: now let me feel your hate knowledge is power |
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 00:16:00 -
[95]
As I'm not at home with my spreadsheets my estimate that the current PI products would last around two months for all pos and pos module demand, excluding fuel requirements.
CCP are getting a massive isk sink out of this.
Despite the repro there are certain products that will experience shortages soon after the patch.
There is also a manufacturing bottleneck due to a 1b isk bpo that producers will end up purchasing.
Should be a lot of fun with the market volitility even if CCP do not remove the npc orders prior to the patch.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 00:20:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Professor Leech As I'm not at home with my spreadsheets my estimate that the current PI products would last around two months for all pos and pos module demand, excluding fuel requirements.
CCP are getting a massive isk sink out of this.
Despite the repro there are certain products that will experience shortages soon after the patch.
There is also a manufacturing bottleneck due to a 1b isk bpo that producers will end up purchasing.
Should be a lot of fun with the market volitility even if CCP do not remove the npc orders prior to the patch.
Your estimates can't be correct yet and will not be probably until june 8 because people are constantly bying. knowledge is power |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 00:25:00 -
[97]
Well, if by the weekend it's not fixed, I fully expect the majority of alliances to do their pre-emptive shopping, so, umm, what, 2 to 3 TRILLION ISK sunk into it in one weekend, maybe ? Or, maybe a lot more, since, hell, can you say no to a ~5 bil ISK outpost bargain ? Bye bye PI P4s, you will not really be missed since nobody really got to know you ! See you in 2 to 3 years
Well, the good news is that POS fuel will be somewhat profitable eventually, as the current stockpiles get exhausted in maybe half a year or so ? They're "cheap" enough to not trigger a massive purchase spree. Not much to speak of, but still better than nothing.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 00:25:00 -
[98]
Don't forget that this is being run into the ground and those not able to make use of the products will panic and try to dump products. Then they'll realise they should have retained them, and so on.
Yes, my estimates are for only that point in time. However, my forecast for tears is many.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 00:32:00 -
[99]
I wouldn't mind couple of adv labs for 30m each knowledge is power |
Alice Celadon
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 00:33:00 -
[100]
Here's the way CCP will fix this:
CCP to database DEVS: Go add a "0" to P4 output and also to P4 materials requirements on BPOs.
Database DEVS: Done.
This means, if any alliance wants to manufacture 40 outposts, do it in the next few days.
|
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 01:05:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 01:05:54 Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 01:05:09 Atm this is so well known that i'm already having doubts about the profitability.I like to sell fast and this goes totally against the word fast.
We'll be probably looking at intense market war the first few weeks and you know what they say never put all your eggs in one basket.
Atm even fuel looks more attractive. knowledge is power |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 01:06:00 -
[102]
You got mail !
Bug Report Processed (~7 minutes ago) Thank you for your bugreport - ID:95974 Title: CRITICAL ! Adoption of PI threatened by reprocessable POS structures (contents - tl;dr of the EDG thread) "We are already aware of this problem, and have added your bugreport to the existing issue in our defect tracking system."
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 01:09:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Professor Leech on 28/05/2010 01:14:28 That's great news Akita. I look forward to this issue being addressed by 2014.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 01:10:00 -
[104]
That's interesting.I'm defo not buying anything after seeing this.Now lets see how they solve it.... knowledge is power |
Glafri
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 01:18:00 -
[105]
Funny, I got this response after a petition which I escelated due to it not being a bug rather an oversight by CCP.
------------------------- Hello,
We are not declaring this to be an exploit. We have made the devs aware of this, and they are looking into if they will change the reprocessing values, or allow this to remain. But no, we are not calling it an exploit.
Best regards, GM ****** Eve Online Customer Support
-------------------------------
Hope this adds to the confusion.
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 01:18:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Professor Leech That's great news Akita. I look forward to this issue being addressed by 2014.
My thoughts exactly But hey, a bit more fear never hurt anybody, at least SOME people will think twice before jumping on the bandwagon _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Steve Thomas
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 01:21:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Akita T Well, if by the weekend it's not fixed, I fully expect the majority of alliances to do their pre-emptive shopping, so, umm, what, 2 to 3 TRILLION ISK sunk into it in one weekend, maybe ? .
Not sunk
Literaly Vaporised from the EvE economy
because remember currently thoes bits are all NPC items.and NPCs dont buy thoes items.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* a (Long) Guide to Pi
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 01:24:00 -
[108]
There is a mistake in your bug report as well. PI is not threatened by reprocessing. Only the supply via npc orders.
Now if only we could build ships with PI goods and insurance fraud them.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
Kalanar
Wrecking Shots Hostile Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 01:29:00 -
[109]
CCP could simply put up buy orders for those given items and P4 goods. I mean, theoretically, all those NPC corps need those items - at say, a high profit for a month. Profit would have to be higher than the Jita prices. People sell, get their money, and CCP fixes PI.
That will never happen. But it was an idea.
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 01:34:00 -
[110]
I think we can totally scrap the idea of good profit here short term.The more i look at it the more i begin to think that towers will be far from the 50m mark and what happens when somebody who needs isk starts dumping below build price?Panic? knowledge is power |
|
Vilgan i'Lakin
Pirates and Ninjas
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 02:09:00 -
[111]
Most of the items reproc in an intelligent fashion. Those 3 are an obvious problem that needs to get fixed.
I don't really think its the end of the world. It'll prop up PI until it isn't a horrible mess (in several iterations). Its also not going to be some super fountain of isk (imo) due to the fact everyone and their grandmother's uncles dog is jumping into it. Is it odds on to make isk? Sure, long as you don't mind sitting on it for 9 months. Some traders can do that, but many will lose patience after a month or two imo. Also capital construction parts BPOs will be a lot cheaper once pos prices crash and everyone is trying to liquidate :P
|
Boogie Bobby
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 02:20:00 -
[112]
Has anyone considered that this wasn't completely an error?
The major problem is they created a huge gap between current NPC prices of seeded items and what they could be refined, rebuilt and resold for, yes? Additionally you can sit on the goods and slowly sell off, which will hold PI prices at least at the ceiling of the value of whatever is being refined, right? If they had got that right and allowed a small profit, the logistics networks and production/research of BPOs and most importantly a buzz and interest in PI and the industrial processes involved in it would have been created. Instead it's just a goldrush/stockpile which is extra amusing since beyond the first people to clue in, everyone else joining the fun is just pushing prices down and prolonging the agony which will begin 8 Jun.
Massive supply, but where's the demand when everyone can do this? Simply being able to produce cheaper than NPC seeds doesn't mean people will buy it, especially now the cat's outta the bag.
|
Alice Celadon
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 02:20:00 -
[113]
The plot thickens? REAA and Cynojammers show "0" volume for yesterday in The Forge. Is CCP trying to suppress what is now common knowledge?
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 02:35:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Alice Celadon The plot thickens? REAA and Cynojammers show "0" volume for yesterday in The Forge. Is CCP trying to suppress what is now common knowledge?
its been reset every few hours i noticed that after i saw 12k volume few hours later it was 0 and 2hours later 1k again.Now its 0 again.The reason is not known for now. knowledge is power |
Alice Celadon
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 02:42:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Grozen
Originally by: Alice Celadon The plot thickens? REAA and Cynojammers show "0" volume for yesterday in The Forge. Is CCP trying to suppress what is now common knowledge?
its been reset every few hours i noticed that after i saw 12k volume few hours later it was 0 and 2hours later 1k again.Now its 0 again.The reason is not known for now.
Ah. This is likely a coding error where the database stored the volume number in a space 2^14 bits or something like that in order to save space. I wonder how many times the transaction volume spooled around 16,384? Heh heh.
|
Steve Thomas
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 02:58:00 -
[116]
that or the system nukes any data that seems to be price manipulation
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* a (Long) Guide to Pi
|
wakalaka
Information And Entropy
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 03:10:00 -
[117]
Looks like Integrity Response Drones and Nano-Factory are the bottlenecks of this loophole, though I have to check throughly many more reprocessing values. I may even do some PI myself at the end, lol.
|
Kalanar
Wrecking Shots Hostile Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 03:40:00 -
[118]
The winners of this are going to be the people who hold onto their stuff in the long run.
1. Massive supply of T4 PI stuff causes decrease in equilibrium price. 2. Marginal revenue significantly because of the price drop (assuming that PI goods are sold in a perfectly competitive market, which pretty much everything in EVE is) 3. MR line drops below Average Total Cost and Average Variable Cost curve, causing firms to exit PI (or, in this case, sell their already bought goods at dirt cheap prices to pay off some costs). 4. Supply of PI stuff goes down 5. Equilbrium Price increases 6. People who held onto their stuff sell slowly, only slightly increasing supply 7. ??? 8. PROFIT!
|
Verite Rendition
Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Initiative Mercenaries
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 04:02:00 -
[119]
Originally by: wakalaka Looks like Integrity Response Drones and Nano-Factory are the bottlenecks of this loophole, though I have to check throughly many more reprocessing values. I may even do some PI myself at the end, lol.
I would be far more worried about Capital Construction Parts right now. Using this P4 material to build anything for cheap requires CCPs, and no one has that in significant supply since it was previously only used in cap ships. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Null-Sec Player Influence Map http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Veritefw/FWinf |
Vilgan i'Lakin
Pirates and Ninjas
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 04:15:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Verite Rendition
Originally by: wakalaka Looks like Integrity Response Drones and Nano-Factory are the bottlenecks of this loophole, though I have to check throughly many more reprocessing values. I may even do some PI myself at the end, lol.
I would be far more worried about Capital Construction Parts right now. Using this P4 material to build anything for cheap requires CCPs, and no one has that in significant supply since it was previously only used in cap ships.
Going to be interesting to see how cheap CCP BPOs will be in a few weeks once the lemming rush to produce 59023242 of them kicks in :)
|
|
Chaska Marcos
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 08:19:00 -
[121]
Has anyone thought about the possibility that CCP did this on purpose? Maybe they would like to make POS's more available for people. Maybe what we'll really see is a price drop on POS equipment.
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 09:03:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Chaska Marcos Has anyone thought about the possibility that CCP did this on purpose?
Yes, a lot of people did don their tinfoil hats and spouted this nonsense already. You're not the first to invent the latest conspiracy theory.
Quote: Maybe they would like to make POS's more available for people. Maybe what we'll really see is a price drop on POS equipment.
Maybe you didn't think enough about why that makes no sense, from an "Occam's Razor" point of view.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Neo Gabriel
Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 10:58:00 -
[123]
A good way for them to fix this is to simply make this ninja change during the DT for PI stuff deployment:
Multiply the numbers of mats required to manufacture using PI items by 2 orders of magnitude, increase production/extraction rates accordingly and reduce volume of items to match. 1 item becomes 100, volume of 1 unit is divided by 100.
Result: Everyone who exploited this for material gain is SOL and the problem is solved.
Only downside is database will have to handle extra zeros.
|
DarkArtz
Celestial Mayhem Honourable Templum of Alcedonia
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 11:39:00 -
[124]
Another day and the NPC orders are still up. Its nearly impossible not to buy some of this stuff now and depending on profits or losses I might have to update my opinion of what I thought was a boring expansion.
|
necronarcosis
Eggz Enterprises Imajiaca
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 12:00:00 -
[125]
intresting, do you think then that this will have an impact on the price of faction towers? eh? |
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 12:02:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 12:02:08 why would i buy faction tower for bil when i can buy 10 normal towers for 500m total? knowledge is power |
necronarcosis
Eggz Enterprises Imajiaca
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 12:07:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Grozen Edited by: Grozen on 28/05/2010 12:02:08 why would i buy faction tower for bil when i can buy 10 normal towers for 500m total?
i think you made my point for me, sell sell sell eh? |
Mr LaForge
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 12:14:00 -
[128]
Sterile Conduits are looking pretty expensive..
|
Alice Celadon
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 12:16:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Neo Gabriel A good way for them to fix this is to simply make this ninja change during the DT for PI stuff deployment:
Multiply the numbers of mats required to manufacture using PI items by 2 orders of magnitude, increase production/extraction rates accordingly and reduce volume of items to match. 1 item becomes 100, volume of 1 unit is divided by 100.
Result: Everyone who exploited this for material gain is SOL and the problem is solved.
Only downside is database will have to handle extra zeros.
Yes, the longer CCP waits to do this, the more damage will be done. So far, I already know of 8 separate outposts cooking at the awesome price of ~3 billion.
|
Dalden V
Blue Lounge Industries New Eden Research.
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 12:21:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Dalden V on 28/05/2010 12:27:41 After today's downtime, does the modules still reproc to the same amounts? What did the Cynosural System Jammer reproc to before?
Current reproc values: Organic Mortar Applicators : 6 Self-Harmonizing Power Core : 9 Recursive Computing Module : 5 Broadcast Node : 9 Integrity Response Drones: 6 Wetware Mainframe : 4
|
|
Uppsy Daisy
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 12:32:00 -
[131]
7.2 million each for a cyno jammer -> 39 T4 parts
185000 per T4 part
Still the same.
Most others work out at about 500000 per T4 part.
|
Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention Rough Necks
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 13:06:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Chaska Marcos Has anyone thought about the possibility that CCP did this on purpose?
Yes, a lot of people did don their tinfoil hats and spouted this nonsense already. You're not the first to invent the latest conspiracy theory.
Quote: Maybe they would like to make POS's more available for people. Maybe what we'll really see is a price drop on POS equipment.
Maybe you didn't think enough about why that makes no sense, from an "Occam's Razor" point of view.
Well it does increase the overall POS fuel needs and thus reinforces the market for those intermediary PI products.
--
Originally by: Zeke Mobius I swear the catholic church was faster at admitting the earth was round than CCP at fixing stuff.
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 13:09:00 -
[133]
When i gave it a bigger thought whats the worse that could happen?Half of pi functionally is disabled for year.Pi is still somewhat of use because fuel will end at some point and people will need to prepare for that point.As for the t4 stuff it will gradually increase in price over time until the price begin to match extraction rate.CCP only introduced softer landing in a no npc sell orders enviroment.Maybe its better then omg i need pos there are no pos for selling or, zomg this fker is selling pos for 700m i'm not bying that? knowledge is power |
Dominiks HandelsHeldin
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 13:29:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Grozen When i gave it a bigger thought whats the worse that could happen?Half of pi functionally is disabled for year.Pi is still somewhat of use because fuel will end at some point and people will need to prepare for that point.As for the t4 stuff it will gradually increase in price over time until the price begin to match extraction rate.CCP only introduced softer landing in a no npc sell orders enviroment.Maybe its better then omg i need pos there are no pos for selling or, zomg this fker is selling pos for 700m i'm not bying that?
I think so too. It will only benefit the fastest, but it's not a situation like insurance fraud. Due to being largely known everyone is purchasing npc-goods. This will drive down the prices and i expect the tower buy orders soon to be filled. After that the demand will drop until npc goods are off the market and it will take a long time until it is worthwile to sell the stockpiled goods.
|
Brant Hammer
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 13:56:00 -
[135]
It's all part of the sandbox...
|
Yiulian
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 13:57:00 -
[136]
I would say it's pretty bad if you put out an expansion that you worked 6 months on that for all intents and purposes won't become fully useful after a year.
I know EVE time moves a little slower than that in the normal (gaming) world but it's still not a good thing...
|
Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 13:59:00 -
[137]
It could be me, but folks seem to think that due to the cheap components they will be making oodles of money. More supply and no increase in demand generally means lower prices. As there's going to be in immense amount of supply, controlled by more then a few, we'll see a lot of competition in price (as not everyone can afford to sit on their stock for a months to a year). Tower prices will plummet, Moon mining arrays prices will skyrocket, they'll meet somewhere in the middle.
No one in their right mind will produce P4 materials through PI, they'll stick to P1/P2/P3 and preferably the materials that will net them the most, such as Enriched Uranium for example (three times more profitable then oxygen and way easier to transport). Supply of EU will go up, new supply of most other POS fuels and T2 components will be almost non-existent. Eventually (within months) demand,supply, and price will balance out for the POS fuels and T2 components.
Due to lower POS prices, there might very well be more POSes in EVE, increasing demand for POS fuels even more. As costs increase for POS fuels, there will be a point where POS operating costs will beyond their operating profit margin AND/OR the amount of POSes operated by Alliances will be an unsustainable drain on their resources. This will lead to less POSes active, leading to less demand for new POSes, it would lead to even more POSes on the market (even more supply, even lower prices).
As PI can be done by every character with little to no training, it's easier then mining to get into and get efficient with, so there will be way more PI users then miners. Add to that that it is possible to fire and forget Extractors (set it at a very long cycle), we'll have 300k PI producers. There is almost no risk (only when you transport the goods off planet are you open to attack), I suspect a large supply of PI products. As I have no clue on the monthly consumption of POS fuels and T2 materials, I can't really make an educated guess on how much needs to be produced and how many PI producers it would take. But due to the fact that P4 materials currently aren't profitable, it also impacts the supply of POS fuels and T2 materials.
Then we have the need for Capital Construction Parts, those need a generous amount of minerals to produce (not to mention a godawful expensive BPO), increasing demand for minerals. On the other hand we have less to none insurance fraud, as I have no idea how many minerals were consumed that way I can't make an educated guess how it will mineral demands. There are also less loot drops and those generated a significant part of the mineral supply, then we have the changes to how drone drops reprocess. So minerals might go up in price, they might go down in price, we'll see in the coming months.
What have minerals to do with PI supply? The are competitors for time, I suspect that it attracts the same kind of people. You can do both at relatively low production levels, but if you have multiple accounts mining a belt at the same time, you'll probably busy all the time with targeting new asteroids, emptying cans, etc. The same goes for PI, when you have 18 planets to manage per account, you'll be busy all the time. The point is, if you make more per hour doing PI then you do mining, you'll do PI (and vice versa). So the price of PI materials and minerals is (imho) related, more so then ratting/missioning (different kind of player).
I don't see why everyone is making such a big deal about 'cheap' P4, when there are also 'cheap' POS fuels and T2 materials, those will go up drastically in price and will stay there, with (imho) a lot less risk then the P4 materials.
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 14:17:00 -
[138]
This is really the best time to get rich both from pi and from the bug.First because t3 products will be very high in price and second because you have a chance to buy ton of cheap pos,labs that you never had before just think about it no matter how much money has been poored in it will eventually lead to depleted supplies.
This will automatically lead to 200% price increase and the market will restore itself to dominion prices on everything if not better.
So yea its a great oportunity to buy tons of cheap pos/lab/whatever sit on it for year and then sell later when market has stabilized.For those who can't do the calculation that will be about 150-300% profit IF you have the patience and the isk :P knowledge is power |
Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 14:30:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Grozen For those who can't do the calculation that will be about 150-300% profit IF you have the patience and the isk :P
That's a ROI of 3%-10% a month, not exactly a lot imho, especially with the risks attached (CCP changing things in a 'bad' way). Maybe that's good if you have a couple of hundred billion laying around, but not when you only have a couple of billion.
|
Alexi Blue
Serra Technologies
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 14:32:00 -
[140]
Why wait when there are still plenty of POS buy orders to fill. ---
Serra Blueprint Store |
|
Alexi Blue
Serra Technologies
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 14:48:00 -
[141]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Hi Folks,
There is indeed an issue where you can reprocess the starbase modules whilst they are still regulated by the old market supply prices and use those materials to manufacture other more expensive modules. This unfortunately was a timing issue with our transition to planetary interaction from old to new supply routes and as can be seen, was not handled in the appropriate way.
For those of you looking forward to Planetary Interaction on June 8th, do not worry as these issues will be cleaned up and appropriate measures will be taken to ensure there will be a viable market for you. Those of you currently gambling on profiting from this error should heed that as a warning before splashing more isk here.
Apologies for this bug and further updates will follow in the future!
-Chronotis
---
Serra Blueprint Store |
Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 14:52:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Alexi Blue Why wait when there are still plenty of POS buy orders to fill.
That would be fun if there wasn't a shortage of Capital Construction Parts, without those no profitable POS buy orders to fill. By the time there are CCPs available, the profitable buy orders will be gone. If there where any available, somewhere, they should now have reached a price point it isn't profitable to buy those components anymore...
|
Yiulian
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 14:52:00 -
[143]
If they display the same aptitude with the fix that they displayed so far, I wouldn't be too worried ;-)
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 14:58:00 -
[144]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Hi Folks,
Linkages go well with posts!
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 14:58:00 -
[145]
Warning means you might get ****ed? thank god i bought only 1csj.This actually means PI might not be screwed yet? knowledge is power |
Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 14:58:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Alexi Blue
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Hi Folks,
There is indeed an issue where you can reprocess the starbase modules whilst they are still regulated by the old market supply prices and use those materials to manufacture other more expensive modules. This unfortunately was a timing issue with our transition to planetary interaction from old to new supply routes and as can be seen, was not handled in the appropriate way.
For those of you looking forward to Planetary Interaction on June 8th, do not worry as these issues will be cleaned up and appropriate measures will be taken to ensure there will be a viable market for you. Those of you currently gambling on profiting from this error should heed that as a warning before splashing more isk here.
Apologies for this bug and further updates will follow in the future!
-Chronotis
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1324999&page=9#249
Added link for those in the proof or STFU crowd.
|
zzbooks
Fighting Cats
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 14:58:00 -
[147]
I think everyone in this thread has missed the main problem
The main aim of PI is for Eve players to build stuff on planets, which Dust players will then fight for - Dust players can kill our extractors, command centers etc. Eve-Gate will allow Dust-players to talk to Eve-players and demand isk/rent from Eve players in return for not killing our PI stuff. If noone builds any PI stuff, then Dust players have no reason to fight each other. The reprocessing problem is a small problem for Eve, but it completly breaks Dust. CCP have to cancel Dust, or do something that will make us use PI.
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 15:05:00 -
[148]
Originally by: zzbooks The reprocessing problem is a small problem for Eve, but it completly breaks Dust. CCP have to cancel Dust, or do something that will make us use PI.
This is why I think CCP will actually do something about this error. It's one thing to have it in the Eve-verse and that's it. This here will effect the launch of a secondary CCP product - perhaps all the way to failure. So either CCP does something about this or they change the name of their new product to FAIL-514.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Yiulian
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 15:05:00 -
[149]
Originally by: zzbooks I think everyone in this thread has missed the main problem
The main aim of PI is for Eve players to build stuff on planets, which Dust players will then fight for - Dust players can kill our extractors, command centers etc. Eve-Gate will allow Dust-players to talk to Eve-players and demand isk/rent from Eve players in return for not killing our PI stuff. If noone builds any PI stuff, then Dust players have no reason to fight each other. The reprocessing problem is a small problem for Eve, but it completly breaks Dust. CCP have to cancel Dust, or do something that will make us use PI.
I think you have missed the part where Dust is going to epic fail regardless..
|
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 15:09:00 -
[150]
This can only lead to bad things... here is why...
Very much like the way T3 is, you need multiple WH's with different classes just to harvest the gas, making it pretty much void for one corp to even attempt to manage a full production chain from harvest raw materials to T3 ship. As a T3 builder I buy Polymers and Salvage. So I'm paying the farmer for the salvage, and either the harvesters for a particular polymer and odd gases, or paying the reactors who buy the gas from the market, which they are paying the harvesters. So there is added cost right there, and I know how much it costs, because I check to see if I could react the gases myself.
Just as T3 has specific production chains and suppliers because it's WH space/corp. POS/Outpost Structures will require several production chains.
Searching the PI threads I read somewhere you can harvest up to 300 units of raw material a minute. You need 3,000 units to run a Processed Materials cycle. That's 10 minutes for 3,000 units. If we expand out to 15 hours of doing that would get you 270,000 units of Raw materials. In that same 15 hours if you're making refined commodities you need 40 of them to make 5 refined commodities which takes 30 minutes. You'll have 600 Processed materials in that same 15 hours. You'll also have enough left overs in storage to build another for another 30 hours without changing your extractors. After 45 hours you'll have 1,800 Processed materials, which will go into making 225 Refined commodities. Which oddly enough takes 45 hours. So your total time investing at this stage is 2,770 minutes (46 hours 10 minutes). From there you need 10 Refined Commodities to get 3 Specialized Commodities which takes an hour. So you'd end up with 67.5 Specialized Commodities, this takes 1 hour to make 3, and used 10, so your total time sink now is, 47 hours 10 minutes. Last stage requires 6 units to make 1 Advance Commodity. So you'll get 11 Advance Commodities in 48 hours 10 minutes. That's not bad, what is bad is the number of chains required in the end.
Conclusion, Maybe Advance Commodities are not where the action is, but the intermediary components are. Very much like Polymers.
While I will not put it past anyone that they just harvest raw materials and sell them, but I somehow don't believe they will just stop there. There is very little cost in processing the raw materials into Processed Materials. Extractor -> Storage -> Processor -> Storage -> Command Center -> Launch. Very simple chain so it's not much of a stretch to believe people will just do this anyway. That's to say I don't believe raw materials will absent from the market but I just can't why people wouldn't just process them.
I once set up a T2 Reaction chain in which I looked for a moon which could provide me with 1 simple reaction. This halved my logistics and saved a little money. I harvested and processed the simple reaction and then added the simple reaction I purchased from the market in order to build complex reaction materials.
I would imagine the exact same thing happening here. People can build one almost complete chain section of the chain or stage but they need something else, so they buy it from the market. I believe the money will in Refined Commodities. In most chains this is the spot in which requires a somewhat complex chain, but from that point forward doesn't require much complexity to get to the finished product.
All these people buying POS structures to get P4 items is taking a big risk in my opinion. While I love the ISK sink and would encourage others to do it, I think it's an investment nightmare, waiting to happen. After all, over half the refined commodities are already available by NPC. To build 10 units of 1 P4 doesn't require much ISK. Just 200 units of Refined Commodities.
10 Self-Harmonizing Power Core requires 200 units of Rocket Fuel, Silicate Glass, Enriched Uranium, which comes to about 1.22mil. The rest of done on planet. Did I said Nightmare waiting to happen?
Amarr for Life |
|
Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 15:24:00 -
[151]
I really was expecting an eve rollback over this one.
But with plexes and game time card transfers for isk they made it kind of impossible (or potentially very expensive) to do a rollback of the database. Some people already sunk their isk gains into plexes. As some might have felt what they were doing was not quite above board they may have taken measures to launder the gains as well. I am guessing that undoing this whole mess would already require a similar amount of work as was needed to sort out the whole pos exploid a while back.
Shutting down the cluster for days in between these 2 patches (26th of may and 8th july) because of a mistake may not apeal to them for obvious reasons. Not to mention all the complaints form all the people that already calculated themselves to be rich now.
I do not think recalculating the amounts of modulse used and produced is an option either. Many of the items referred to as pos fuels are also used in t2 production. Ajusting only the production amounts and requirements for the high end pos and outpost items would probebly not lead to the balance they sought for with the numbers they started this expansion with. Of course with such hurried ajustments on potentially many bpo's with loads and loads of expected and to be honest quite valid complaints also brings a huge risk of even more errors.
Considering how widely know this is fixing it now is sort ofsuperfluous. What I expect to be the only option remaining is downplaying the importance of this failure and trying to do the seccond stage of delivery as soon as humainly possible. I Believe there is one more lagtest scheduled for this weekend. I suspect and predict that if no serious issues are raised at this test that by monday downtime at the latest the npc orders will dissapear and that this tuesday the seccond stage of tyrannis will be deployed making the outposts availeble for everyone.
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 15:32:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Martosh Toma I really was expecting an eve rollback over this one.
You know... I don't think I'd be too upset by this myself.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 16:46:00 -
[153]
Making quick cash out of this patch is like a ponzi scheme, get in early and get out quickly before the authorities drop the hammer.
My PI:
100 REAA (@ 9 each) = 900M 100 cyno jammer (@ 7.2 each) = 720M 160 Cap Construction Parts (avge 5M each, some mine) = 800M 1 Large Caldari Tower BPO = 500M
Total = 2920M
20 Large Caldari Towers in production Sold all other spare P4 modules = 720M
Total spent = 2200M Caldari Tower each cost = 85M (not inc BPO)
The market for P4 parts looks to have tanked badly in the last few hrs. Sterile conduits selling for around 1M (vs 2.5M 2 hrs ago).
One of the big winners is those making cap construction parts, now selling for 15M each (production cost approx. 3.5M ISK)
|
Tavusii
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:07:00 -
[154]
Originally by: cosmoray Making quick cash out of this patch is like a ponzi scheme, get in early and get out quickly before the authorities drop the hammer.
My PI:
100 REAA (@ 9 each) = 900M 100 cyno jammer (@ 7.2 each) = 720M 160 Cap Construction Parts (avge 5M each, some mine) = 800M 1 Large Caldari Tower BPO = 500M
Total = 2920M
20 Large Caldari Towers in production Sold all other spare P4 modules = 720M
Total spent = 2200M Caldari Tower each cost = 85M (not inc BPO)
The market for P4 parts looks to have tanked badly in the last few hrs. Sterile conduits selling for around 1M (vs 2.5M 2 hrs ago).
One of the big winners is those making cap construction parts, now selling for 15M each (production cost approx. 3.5M ISK)
Now, notwithstanding the coming massive drop in pos prices, a quick visit with mr. calculator tells me that cosmoray just profited 5.5 billion on an investment of approx. 3 billion, or ~180% in several days.
Any speculation as to the final settling point of a large pos as everyone and their momma tries to dump their **** before the hammer falls, or as people realize that they're going to need to hold their new pos' for up to a year before demand equalizes with this new supply?
|
Jan VanRijkdom
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:21:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Jan VanRijkdom on 28/05/2010 17:21:47 *Cue '50s music and grainy radio broadcast with enthusiastic voice*
"With the advancing of this modern age, now every man, woman and child can afford to have their very own Player Owned Sation! It's not just for the nieghbours anymore..."
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 17:22:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Tavusii
Originally by: cosmoray Making quick cash out of this patch is like a ponzi scheme, get in early and get out quickly before the authorities drop the hammer.
My PI:
100 REAA (@ 9 each) = 900M 100 cyno jammer (@ 7.2 each) = 720M 160 Cap Construction Parts (avge 5M each, some mine) = 800M 1 Large Caldari Tower BPO = 500M
Total = 2920M
20 Large Caldari Towers in production Sold all other spare P4 modules = 720M
Total spent = 2200M Caldari Tower each cost = 85M (not inc BPO)
The market for P4 parts looks to have tanked badly in the last few hrs. Sterile conduits selling for around 1M (vs 2.5M 2 hrs ago).
One of the big winners is those making cap construction parts, now selling for 15M each (production cost approx. 3.5M ISK)
Now, notwithstanding the coming massive drop in pos prices, a quick visit with mr. calculator tells me that cosmoray just profited 5.5 billion on an investment of approx. 3 billion, or ~180% in several days.
Any speculation as to the final settling point of a large pos as everyone and their momma tries to dump their **** before the hammer falls, or as people realize that they're going to need to hold their new pos' for up to a year before demand equalizes with this new supply?
Now if only there wasn't atleast 1k pos already in the oven he'd be able to sell it fast.But everyone is trying to cash out before ccp brings justice so my guess is its not gonna be funny when all those pos enter the market. knowledge is power |
Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention Rough Necks
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:05:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Grozen This means that most calculations about PI are wrong?
No, that's damage control
--
Originally by: Zeke Mobius I swear the catholic church was faster at admitting the earth was round than CCP at fixing stuff.
|
Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:11:00 -
[158]
Hmm.
A 'quick and dirty' fix to all of this could be to re-seed the Empire planets to have same resource levels as Null, maybe higher. Then lower it over 3-4 months (this is very easily shoehorned from a RP/Lore perspective). Nice little side effect of this would be to get more players addicted to the higher levels, and maybe tempt them towards Low and Null.
Of course, they could also place a two-month ban on every account that held P4 materials during the time frame. As a DB person, I can envision the query easily enough, especially since they're not supposed to exist yet...
Neither solution would surprise me, given past history. I definitely do not envy them whatever decision they eventually make.
--A_K
|
Steve Celeste
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:29:00 -
[159]
That other GM correspondence got snipped from GD, any idea if they will actually do something to current PI materials?
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:36:00 -
[160]
It doesn't seem you understand what i posted.The output of PI is so large players have no idea.There are really great planets out there with tons of resources in them.A player with maxed planetary skills can catch up very easy to the situation. knowledge is power |
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 18:48:00 -
[161]
POPCORN GRAB TIME NOW _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention Rough Necks
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 19:18:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Grozen It doesn't seem you understand what i posted.The output of PI is so large players have no idea.There are really great planets out there with tons of resources in them.A player with maxed planetary skills can catch up very easy to the situation.
It doesn't seem you understand what you are talking about, if only planet output was increased then prices will tank even more. The problem was never of players not being able to catch up, the problem was always one of oversupply.
--
Originally by: Zeke Mobius I swear the catholic church was faster at admitting the earth was round than CCP at fixing stuff.
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 19:24:00 -
[163]
Ok we'll talk again when the cc get seeded and i have some numbers to back me up. knowledge is power |
Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 19:31:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Grozen It doesn't seem you understand what i posted.The output of PI is so large players have no idea.There are really great planets out there with tons of resources in them.A player with maxed planetary skills can catch up very easy to the situation.
I believe I understand enough; I spent a weekend with the final 'base' iteration on Sisi a couple weeks ago, and would be eager to get into it if they can reduce the clicks a bit (I did so much in 3 days it injured my wrist again which is why I liked mining so much).
I only tested in Empire, as that is where most of the 'common' (or 'visible') PI will be occurring. To be blunt, if you want to produce P4 in Empire be ready to spend tons of time training (which I agree with you on).
However, in about three days or so you can have all three of your character slots trained for four planets and the L4 CCs. This is more than enough to get basic P2 chains in Empire, and some P3 chains with a little work and/or a lot of importing. I did not test in Null, but would suspect that a standalone (partial or full import) P4 chain is doable with these skills. That's mostly due to less need for extractors in higher-output planets; You can then fit more in the planet chain.
Which is why I suggested raising the Empire output for awhile. Folks will flood the market with relatively cheap (aka low-risk) P4 in short enough order. A ratio change to P4 (as suggested by Akita in the other thread) would be a reasonable tie-in to that actually.
--A_K
|
Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention Rough Necks
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 20:03:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Alain Kinsella PS - Catari, though I'm also concerned about oversupply, raising the output could also entice smaller/starter corps to be self-sufficient. In theory, you can now have a small group build and supply their own high-sec pos labs from scratch - just add standings (or none, if a WH is used). The only isk sink, to them, will be the BPOs and costs of PI usage.
Yes, but that is exactly the problem, isn't it? If everybody is self-sufficient who is going to buy oversupply from the market? There needs to be an incentive to rather lay down the ISK than build it yourself. |
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 20:11:00 -
[166]
They have yet to reveal more parts of PI do not forget its going to be linked to DUST.If there are alot of dust players how are we going to meet the demand for DUST goods if we're not self-sufficient? knowledge is power |
Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention Rough Necks
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 20:22:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Grozen They have yet to reveal more parts of PI do not forget its going to be linked to DUST.If there are alot of dust players how are we going to meet the demand for DUST goods if we're not self-sufficient?
Lol, well let me just say that's assuming an awful lot, and considering DUST is 2-3 expansions away it's pretty irrelevant to everything happening now.
--
Originally by: Zeke Mobius I swear the catholic church was faster at admitting the earth was round than CCP at fixing stuff.
|
Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 20:29:00 -
[168]
Its not irrelevant because some of the DUST structures/vehicles may require insane amount of PI materials so if we haven't stocked enough of them and if we don't have enough on the markets at good price we won't be able to cope with the demand regardless how big the DUST population is.
Its pretty much pointless to worry about supply atm i say we can look at it again when PI gets fully developed. knowledge is power |
Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 21:06:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Grozen Its not irrelevant because some of the DUST structures/vehicles may require insane amount of PI materials so if we haven't stocked enough of them and if we don't have enough on the markets at good price we won't be able to cope with the demand regardless how big the DUST population is.
THAT is nothing more then speculation, we don't know if we can even interact with Dusk beyond contracts and isk.
|
mental maverick
Duty. Duty. Private Security
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 21:20:00 -
[170]
I dont think i agree with you Grozen.
Dust is way too far off to be speculating on what that is going to do to help PI in the comming months.
Increasing the supply from planets and making every POS blueprint require more materials could have been a good fix if there where only big stocks of P4 materials. The big problem are all the outposts and POS mods allready in construction that were constructed with the cheap P4s gotten from cyno jammers. There are probably months of supplys out there allready (going by the Forge market graphs).
Since P4s cant be reprocessed into anything else and used for other stuff, like nanite paste for example, those POSes will remain POSes. Even if they will bring a loss people will still sell them to get atleast some isk back, since there is no other way to get rid of them. This would still make POS mods dirt cheap. It might shave off a few months worth of supply but in no way is it a "fix".
|
|
Di Mulle
|
Posted - 2010.05.28 21:20:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Di Mulle on 28/05/2010 21:21:27
Originally by: Grozen They have yet to reveal more parts of PI do not forget its going to be linked to DUST.If there are alot of dust players how are we going to meet the demand for DUST goods if we're not self-sufficient?
When I see talks about "production for Dust", I want to say this: I don't care about their demands, I care what they will pay for these demands with ?
Originally by: Grozen Its not irrelevant because some of the DUST structures/vehicles may require insane amount of PI materials so if we haven't stocked enough of them and if we don't have enough on the markets at good price we won't be able to cope with the demand regardless how big the DUST population is.
Again, where Dusters are gonna get insane amounts of ISK to pay for "insane amount of PI material" ? You are going to provide them for free ?
|
Panjho
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 00:44:00 -
[172]
Let's talk long term damage control. I'm shocked there isn't an emergency cutoff for NPC goods. This could have happened anytime, not just with PI. When an NPC good is mispriced, naturally, players will jump all over it. There should be a volume cutoff which halts NPC trades when the volume traded in a region exceeds the normal volume by a factor of 10x. If such a cutoff existed, it would have limited the damage in this case by a lot.
Current 3-day Forge volume:
REAA: 743 3695 7262 MHA: 67 1429 1084 CSJ: 1557 13934 0*
If there was a cutoff in place this would have been:
REAA: 10 10 10 (based on normal volume of 1/day) MHA: 67 500 500 (based on normal volume of 50/day) CSJ: 10 10 10 (based on normal volume of 1/day)
*: Misreporting by the in-game price history table
|
Xylopia
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 00:53:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Grozen blah.
I cannot help but point out that you seem trying too darn hard to represent/delegate CCP at this matter from the very beginning.
Hmmm... let me guess, mister. Are you not milking this fatty cash cow just because you want to stand on high moral ground by not partaking this awesome endeavor?
.....oh...so... you're mad!
So be it then. I'll be a dirty moron and be richer than you! muhahahahaha! |
Merouk Baas
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 01:09:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Panjho There should be a volume cutoff which halts NPC trades when the volume traded in a region exceeds the normal volume by a factor of 10x.
How exactly do they calculate or decide what's "normal" volume?
How does that formula deal with players manipulating the volume numbers via player-to-player trades?
What if a savvy trader makes sure to trade 10 of his REAA's per day to his alt, thereby trigerring the NPC cutoff?
|
Alice Celadon
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 01:21:00 -
[175]
Guys, cool it. There are dozens of ways CCP could have prevented this. Inability to formulate ways to prevent mass CSJ, REAA reprocessing was not CCP's failing. Their failing was not identifying the problem beforehand.
What's more interesting at this point is to speculate what possible fixes could be at hand. 10xin 10xout (ahem, which I would self-aggrandizingly point out I first suggested in this thread) seems like a good option.
...
However I predict CCP's solution will be to do nothing. Anything else would require more coding and bug testing. If this is the case on the eve of June 8th, even I will dump a few decabillion isk into this machine.
|
Panjho
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 02:40:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Merouk Baas
Originally by: Panjho There should be a volume cutoff which halts NPC trades when the volume traded in a region exceeds the normal volume by a factor of 10x.
How exactly do they calculate or decide what's "normal" volume?
Since this is intended to be an emergency system it doesn't have to be a tight bound on normal volume. Even at 100x, the cutoff would have prevented 97.4% of the anomalous REAA trades (300 vs. 11700).
|
Merouk Baas
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 04:38:00 -
[177]
No, but, I mean, do you expect a dev-person to go through each commodity and manually set a limit? There's thousands of them. Because otherwise any sort of moving average formula can be meta-gamed by players.
You have the benefit of hindsight, knowing that REAA's specifically are the problem. Had they known that ahead of time, the issue wouldn't have happened.
|
Steve Thomas
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 04:51:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 29/05/2010 04:53:13
Originally by: Merouk Baas No, but, I mean, do you expect a dev-person to go through each commodity and manually set a limit? There's thousands of them. Because otherwise any sort of moving average formula can be meta-gamed by players.
You have the benefit of hindsight, knowing that REAA's specifically are the problem. Had they known that ahead of time, the issue wouldn't have happened.
hes talking about an automated trade limmit, the system would bascialy "know" based on (say) a 100 day moveing average what the normal and peak volume "should" be
Originally by: Alice Celadon Their failing was not identifying the problem beforehand.
you left off the word Again at the end of that sentance
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* a (Long) Guide to Pi
|
Jessica Verne
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 07:07:00 -
[179]
It wouldn't take a massive rollback to 'fix' this exploit.
Its actually pretty simple:
#1 Cancel all manufacturing jobs involving any of the newly producible items (Control towers, sov structures, etc.) #2 Remove all NPC sell orders for pos modules #3 Remove all Tier 4 PI goods (from market, player/corp hangers,etc)
Fairly simple, and you'd be at a point where only people who have delivered the tower/etc they were baking have an advantage-- Its not hard to find these people, they have all delivered manufacturing jobs recently that are not possible through valid in-game (intended) mechanics.
I think we can all agree that without this type of rollback, PI will be pre nerfed so bad no one will seriously want to even waste their time.
|
Panjho
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 07:34:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Merouk Baas No, but, I mean, do you expect a dev-person to go through each commodity and manually set a limit? There's thousands of them. Because otherwise any sort of moving average formula can be meta-gamed by players.
You have the benefit of hindsight, knowing that REAA's specifically are the problem. Had they known that ahead of time, the issue wouldn't have happened.
The system would be automatic and applied to all NPC goods; no foresight is needed.
I don't care, and neither should you, if someone can meta-game an emergency cutoff. In case you haven't noticed, people are meta-gaming the system right now.
The point of the emergency cutoff is not to regulate the economy. It's there to give CCP time to react to mistakes. We don't need a permanent, foolproof solution. We just need a speed bump. A 30-day moving average which triggers a cutoff at 100x volume would have given CCP the time to defuse this economic bomb.
|
|
AnakieNine
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 11:00:00 -
[181]
After a day building a model containing everything PI related from start to finish I can say that itÆs not messy for CCP to fix. It just means changing 2 ratios in the PI chain, manual adjustment of a couple of the BPOs build requirements and changing the m3 to match them so freight doesn't become a problem. One other thing unrelated that I wonÆt mention :) With that said, expect a week before we see anything. Q.A. etc.
The end result of it all should be that the refined materials are going to return almost the exact same profits that most of the t1 items currently do. The changes I see happening also fix a few other discrepancies that existed with several of NPC trade commodities that I didn't like during my first run over PI. So assume more of the PI chains will be utilized by planet owners that weren't in the current format.
If I didn't know better I would guess that this was planned by someone within CCP to force the community to take over the existing NPC supply of sov and tower structures in a seamless way. Thanks to what has happened we can look forward to non price gouging from this patch. unlike several patches in the past. Bad luck there MD. :P Just think back to how long T3 took to come down to a fair price. I alone was easily making between 5-8 billion a day for months with t3 and I didn't even push into that market very hard.
This time around if the fix is what seems most obvious we are going to get towers and sov structures at roughly the same prices that the NPC's are currently selling them for. This means people on planets will get paid exactly what CCP planed for them from the start. Way to go CCP!!!
Refining players wonÆt be able to sell at a much higher price than the current NPC price due to the competition. It also shouldn't go much lower than the existing NPC prices either as most refiners wonÆt want to sell for a loss on what they paid for the refined PI material. Many will also gamble on it going up after some time.
When PI production finally kicks in from planets they could push the price down as the "minerals I mine are free" crowd often do that, however itÆs going to be a balancing act of current supply from refining being replaced by planet goo.
To fix that long term I personally wouldn't care if CCP left all the old NPC orders up until the system is working smoothly and allow smart players to continue making a couple of % here and there via continued use of monitoring, refining and re-building. Ie normal trading for many. It would hold as a kind of a temporary price cap for PI until the system is mature. This technique would be no different than CCP used for years in the minerals. Just think back to refining silo's for trit which occurred for a long time or npc buy sell orders, or even rat npc drops of massive amounts of trit. This would be the fairest position for all but it means a boring patch for the MD crowd looking to make billions in speculation.
So for now letÆs allow CCP to bring out the changes. This time it will be Q.A to a inch of its life. :P
|
Narfas Deteis
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 12:42:00 -
[182]
News of a day: CCP removed all POS related NPC sell orders.
|
JitaPriceChecker2
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 12:54:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Narfas Deteis News of a day: CCP removed all POS related NPC sell orders.
gods
|
Mr LaForge
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 13:02:00 -
[184]
Good thing I bought what I needed yesterday.
|
Vilgan i'Lakin
Pirates and Ninjas
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 13:04:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Narfas Deteis News of a day: CCP removed all POS related NPC sell orders.
Better late than never. Really should have done this yesterday though.
|
Boogie Bobby
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 16:07:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Vilgan i'Lakin
Originally by: Narfas Deteis News of a day: CCP removed all POS related NPC sell orders.
Better late than never. Really should have done this yesterday though.
Yup, the horse is loooong gone. Congrats to everyone who has made and will make a fortune from this.
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 16:20:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Boogie Bobby Congrats to everyone who has made and will make a fortune from this.
Hear, hear. If it wasn't for cheating and other opportunities I would have no competition. Be far too boring otherwise. So here's to you, those who will sell out because they have nothing else of value.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 18:03:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Boogie Bobby Congrats to everyone who has made and will make a fortune from this.
Hear, hear. If it wasn't for cheating and other opportunities I would have no competition. Be far too boring otherwise. So here's to you, those who will sell out because they have nothing else of value.
Damn my pesky remaining moral values an ethics, I have to completely get rid of them, they are stunting my wallet growth Nah, just kidding. I'm more than happy with what I already have, but more importantly, the way I got it. It's more exciting to play with a bit of a moral handicap
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 18:10:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Akita T It's more exciting to play with a bit of a moral handicap
Well just because I won't indulge in skulduggery does not mean I didn't see what you did. Got yours, readied your position, then made sure everyone knew about it so that you can profit and be out quick like. And all the while still maintain the perception of scrupulous honesty. >wink< Still, nothing deceitful about it. Not at all.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 18:17:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Akita T on 29/05/2010 18:26:06
Well, you could trust me when I tell you I didn't buy/reprocess any POS mods, ...or I could give you my full API key to check I am telling the truth (just ask for it and promise you won't divulge anything else except to confirm/deny my claims in here, then I'm sending it ASAP), ...but you could still choose to believe I took advantage with an alt that had a lot of ISK stashed away somehow (although you probably could tell there can't be any with the data you'll get) ...or that I loaned a lot of ISK with an alt from somebody else or something like that. So there's no way to conclusively prove I didn't make any ISK from it. I can try to convince you though, if you really cared to try to know.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 18:29:00 -
[191]
Nah, I trust you enough to not really care. Besides, I never presume to know exactly how someone profited from a situation. Right brain, left brain thingy. I just know, gut level, that you did.
Intellectually, not enough ambition to think about it really.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 18:44:00 -
[192]
Well, I was hoping you'd care enough to want to find out, so you could be at least reasonably convinced I'm telling the truth, but eh... what can I do if you don't even want to ? It's kind of silly of me to want to have the trust/approval of people I probably never will meet, sure, but on some level I dislike this particular situation anyway.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 18:57:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Akita T stuff
I'll hit you up eve-gate style. Better to take this part of the convo off the forums. Anyone else loving Eve-Gate yet? I am. Finally, a PM system. (If only CCP would integrate it more fully into the forums!)
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 19:02:00 -
[194]
It sucks that it "eats up" CR/LFs from the evemails.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 19:16:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Akita T It sucks that it "eats up" CR/LFs from the evemails.
It's a work in progress. But I've hopes for the overall system.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Jan VanRijkdom
|
Posted - 2010.05.29 23:07:00 -
[196]
Skulduggery FTW. Am I right Akita? Eh, eh? *wink/nudge*
|
Morriganth
|
Posted - 2010.05.30 01:54:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Morriganth on 30/05/2010 01:53:45 nm |
Mael Sechnaill
|
Posted - 2010.05.30 09:42:00 -
[198]
Edited by: Mael Sechnaill on 30/05/2010 09:46:11
Originally by: Yiulian
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Lots of OMG EXPLOIT shouts going on here, without anyone actually doing the math.
This is what I don't like of EvE (posted a longer tantrum on Block's thread): in EvE if you are a jerk, a shark or worse, you are in the Nirvana. It's so NOT realistic that a sandbox only prizes the smart asses, the cheaters, the mongers. When I'll get out of this office later today, I don't expect someone to surely come out and kill me to take my 10 euros if given ANY opportunity. Somehow, the real sandbox is flexible enough to self regulate itself from the inside. Why EvE can't achieve something similar? It's like a shirt wearing too tight. Works, but you don't feel great.
Because the real world is not a sandbox.
This is true for the internet in general and eve as an extension of that: Take away the rules, and people will be pricks. Apparently many people have some hidden need to be a-holes which is held back only by rules, laws and the opinion of other people.
Look at old school MMOs from before the carebear era, like UO. Not so different to the way eve works now.
The real world doesn't self-regulate, well it does to an extent but mostly it is regulated by the government. Back in the times when this wasn't so much the case, I expect it was much like eve. You'd be ambling along on your way from A to B with the goods you spent all week last week producing, and someone would rob you and possibly kill you. If you lived in a nice little farming town on the coast, the danes would come once a year and take all your stuff and possibly your children/wife as well.
Eve could easily achieve something similar but it would involve restricting the activities allowed in the sandbox, or only allowing them in certain areas of the sandbox. More realistic, yes, but I don't think most of the eve player base would like it much.
Survival of the fittest always works in the favor of the unscrupulous.
Well, generalizing is never a good way to know the actual facts. In today's "enlighted" materialist scientific culture, one always needs to assume the existence of some conditioning (even internal ones are percieved to be results of external ones). Simply, the idea of soul, ethics, morale, free will are more and more discarded when consciusness is seen as an appendice of competing genes. Fortunately, this is far from being the whole truth, and while traditional spirituality lost it's power because it too became exoteric, we see a new one pushing strongly from the domain of arts. What I see as faulty in MMO's in general is that they provide a virtual reality where freedom is pretty much restricted, advancement is artificially slowed down, and ultimatley is a mechanicist system where one realy can't stand out in any way. EVE is a sandbox, but as an artificial reality, it's still a prison. What can you do except be more rich than others, or have a higher number of kills ? Even your skills are pretty much the same. Customization is a mtyh. A nullsec PVP Vagabond will be flown by the cookie cutter pilot having a cookie cutter fit. Any disparity comes form being dispersed in time (subscription start) and space. But it indeed provides the perfect ILLUSION of freedom, exactly by allowing antisocial, immoral, unethical behaviour, indeed restricted by real life society.
|
Kanatta Jing
|
Posted - 2010.05.30 19:41:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Kanatta Jing on 30/05/2010 19:42:02 2 and a half more days, to try and clear the excess PI modules off the market. It's a dirty job thankless job but someone has to do it.
But it would sure be easier without the threat of POS modules comming back on the market.
|
Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
|
Posted - 2010.05.30 19:51:00 -
[200]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 30/05/2010 19:54:57
The primary object of a solution must be to make PI viable in fairly short order. The solution must be simple to minimise the possibility of causing additional unintended side effects.
Compulsory purchase, at the start of downtime for the second Tyrannis patch, simply impound all stocks from hangers, market and contracts.
Pay the corporation or player with ISK at an appropriate level. This 'appropriate level' could be at (average) cost, or below cost to balance out any pre-existing profiteering.
OK some completed Towers and Outpost have been built, but these don't have a impact on the viability of PI going forward because the parts to build them have already been consumed.
A few other interventions will probably be needed, like the balancing the NPC costs, but the biggest detriment to PI is eliminated.
It could even be inserted into the current live events story line as 'planetary defence needs provoke compulsory purchase of vital defence platform components'.
|
|
DarkArtz
Celestial Mayhem Honourable Templum of Alcedonia
|
Posted - 2010.05.30 20:23:00 -
[201]
Just give it up and seed command centers. Then after a day remove them without warning and seed bpos instead. Require PI materials to build the command centers and there will be enough demand to use up any extra PI material supply.
|
Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
|
Posted - 2010.05.30 20:25:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Catari Taga
Originally by: Grozen This means that most calculations about PI are wrong?
No, that's damage control
No that is massive competition driving to near zero margins re-enforced by the my-time-is-free crowd.
|
Tiberizzle
|
Posted - 2010.05.30 21:33:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Tiberizzle on 30/05/2010 21:35:06 So where are the cheap POSes at? Shouldn't people be furiously shorting existing POS chains right about now to replace them with their shiny new 80m POSes ?
|
Kanatta Jing
|
Posted - 2010.05.30 21:48:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 30/05/2010 19:54:57
The primary object of a solution must be to make PI viable in fairly short order. The solution must be simple to minimise the possibility of causing additional unintended side effects.
Compulsory purchase, at the start of downtime for the second Tyrannis patch, simply impound all stocks from hangers, market and contracts.
Pay the corporation or player with ISK at an appropriate level. This 'appropriate level' could be at (average) cost, or below cost to balance out any pre-existing profiteering.
OK some completed Towers and Outpost have been built, but these don't have a impact on the viability of PI going forward because the parts to build them have already been consumed.
A few other interventions will probably be needed, like the balancing the NPC costs, but the biggest detriment to PI is eliminated.
It could even be inserted into the current live events story line as 'planetary defence needs provoke compulsory purchase of vital defence platform components'.
Or they could just let the market run dry.
An astounding amount of POS modules are purchased every day in Empire and maintaining the supply between now and whenever The first harvests of PI come in should severely deplete the finite supply of materials available.
|
Paul Clavet
Honorless Internet Jerks
|
Posted - 2010.05.30 23:22:00 -
[205]
Posting to confirm that I bought a billion ISK worth of random PI junk the day before the refining was disabled, and resold them the day after for approximately 120% profit. Thanks, MD! ---- Blog: My Loot, Your Tears |
Kanatta Jing
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 05:40:00 -
[206]
All in all I reprocessed:
8 Coupling Arrays 3 Moon Harvesting Arrays 6 Small Pulse Batteries 4 Medium Pulse Batteries
After that I simply bought materials, and manufactured at wildly various levels of Profit. Actually I think I made more money buying materials then I did reprocessing, probably because no one knows what anything is worth.
I'm still 10 million shy from breaking even, but I have 67 million in Silos on the market at below the old market price and another 110 million worth of Large Beam Lasers in the oven.
And I have to call the 150 million in BPO's a profit, just not an exciting profit.
I don't think this has been any worse exploit wise then buying shuttles off of NPC orders and refining them.
You remember that right? When Trit was 2 ISK and nothing could change it?
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 11:41:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Qoi On an unrelated sidenote, according to the EVE API, the completion status ID 3 means "GM aborted".
It's probably true ! motherofgod.jpg
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Alice Celadon
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 11:47:00 -
[208]
evil things are happening.
http://www.eve-offline.net/
the server status is active, but none of us has the right protocols. my guess is GMs are busy little santa clauses at the moment.
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 12:44:00 -
[209]
Apparently, nope :
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate jobs were not cancelled, mine are all still cooking.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Alice Celadon
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 13:04:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Akita T Apparently, nope :
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate jobs were not cancelled, mine are all still cooking.
santa claus left f|_|king coal.
|
|
DarkArtz
Celestial Mayhem Honourable Templum of Alcedonia
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 13:28:00 -
[211]
Edited by: DarkArtz on 02/06/2010 13:29:41 Hey they raised the NPC price of towers. Interesting price adjustments on the mods.
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 13:37:00 -
[212]
Originally by: DarkArtz Hey they raised the NPC price of towers
Not really. What you see is the reset back to baseprice (i.e. 400m/200m/100m for large/med/small) which happens occasionally after some patches. NPC sell order prices naturally drift towards 90% of baseprice (i.e. 360/180/90) after a short while.
Quote: Interesting price adjustments on the mods.
Care to elaborate which ones you call "interesting", and what the price difference is (before/after) ? From what I can see, the only differences so far seem to be the exact same thing you see on towers, although I admit, I haven't checked each and every one of them (in other words, I only checked very few).
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
BlondieBC
Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Missions
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 17:29:00 -
[213]
This looks like a massive isks sink. Any idea how many isks CCP just vaporized ?
|
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 17:35:00 -
[214]
Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 02/06/2010 17:37:27
Originally by: BlondieBC This looks like a massive isks sink. Any idea how many isks CCP just vaporized ?
300b has been removed from the economy, at least
losses are probably really minor though, maybe a few billions from people with outdated orders...most people i've heard from were building mods pretty quick _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep! |
Tiberizzle
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 18:03:00 -
[215]
I did notice that manufacturing queues were completely full for an unusual number of hops from Jita over the last week
|
DarkArtz
Celestial Mayhem Honourable Templum of Alcedonia
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 19:58:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: DarkArtz Hey they raised the NPC price of towers
Not really. What you see is the reset back to baseprice (i.e. 400m/200m/100m for large/med/small) which happens occasionally after some patches. NPC sell order prices naturally drift towards 90% of baseprice (i.e. 360/180/90) after a short while.
Quote: Interesting price adjustments on the mods.
Care to elaborate which ones you call "interesting", and what the price difference is (before/after) ? From what I can see, the only differences so far seem to be the exact same thing you see on towers, although I admit, I haven't checked each and every one of them (in other words, I only checked very few).
Ok it's a reset resulting in higher NPC POS prices than prior to their removal. I simply thought they would adjust the mods that are clearly priced too low. Yes, we can't reprocess them but why leave them at the same base price? I don't see anyone speculating on them anyways but its just odd that the same price disparity exists after they "fix" it.
|
Tiruriku
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 22:01:00 -
[217]
Anybody from Red Frog or another shipper willing to share some numbers on the percentage increase in hauling contracts for the last week?
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2010.06.02 22:50:00 -
[218]
It was fun pulling down the price of p4 materials last night. Only had a bit over 200 units to reprocess this morning and then dump the trit.
Originally by: LADY MEGA because of the PI?
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 :: [one page] |