| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
NoChance Lance
   |
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:12:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Zanaraxtarus
Originally by: NoChance Lance
I'm not defending this one way or the other, but it does seem a little ambiguous that on one hand CCP says wrecks 'belong to no-one' and as such can be salvaged with no consequences, but on the other hand shooting wrecks created by someone else can extend the aggro timer.
Could use some consistency and clarification to be honest.
The SALVAGE inside the wreck belongs to no one.. The wreck itself (and the loot therein) belongs to the person(s) who created said wreck... Salvaging is not illegal because the act of salvaging creates something which did not exist before the salvager module succeeded in it's attempt to turn a wreck into salvage...
A wreck should be though of as a container.. It belongs to no one.. The loot inside the container belongs to the person(s) who created the wreck.. The salvage belongs to no one until it is created..
Rules lawyering works in EVE too
Yeah, I get that. Are the wrecks still shootable after they have been salvaged, thus extending the aggro timer? Not trying to start ****, just genuinely curious as a potential ninja-salavger in the the making 
(Apologies for bringing this up OP, but these situations are intrinsically linked)
_______________________________________________
I'm not afraid of anything or anyone, unless they are wearing a mask. Diego Maradona 2010 |
Kiritsubo
Ritual Suicide
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:14:00 -
[32]
More disturbing than some GM making bad decisions is the carebears request to have his killer banned from the game.
"oh noes he messed with my pixels. please throw him out of the sandbox"
Talk about butthurt.
|
Ktudgha Tuth
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:15:00 -
[33]
I can't see how shooting someone's possesions should give shooter kill rights on wreckage owner. What's next? Make CONCORD help ninja, who flies in and shoots someone's else wreck?
There's a statement: commit an agression against person and have him had kill rights on you for 15 mins. He did agression -- you have kill rights on him for 15 mins.
We have "ninja did agression -- ninja has kill rights". It's clearly against logic, and it's a bug, which CCP didn't care to fix properly. So, technically, runner is right, ninja has exploited the bug. Truth has nothing to do with the fact said bug existed for 3 years.
On the other side, you must be unconsciously wanting to lose CNR, if you undock with timer showing on screen, even if it shouldn't be there. Putting your head into imaginary's lion mouth will eventually result loss of head, even if lions don't usually walk on your street. There are shuttles to check if display is right or wrong.
So, my personal opinion: runner hasn't deserved reimbursement (as rewarding uncautioness is against spirit of game), and ninja deserved punishment for exploiting.
|
Count MonteCarlo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:17:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: Count MonteCarlo
i thought shooting wrecks to extend aggro has been an exploit for 2-3 years, I remember some dude losing a thanatos because of it once and made a big scene of it then ccp declared it as an exploit
which it should be
because its so hard to look in local and see the guy still has aggro on you, amirite?
I know the use of aggro mechanics outside highsec is hard to grasp
are you trolling or are you honestly this stupid
|
Awesome Possum
Gallente Isk Relocation Services
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:17:00 -
[35]
Originally by: NoChance Lance
Originally by: Zanaraxtarus
Originally by: NoChance Lance
I'm not defending this one way or the other, but it does seem a little ambiguous that on one hand CCP says wrecks 'belong to no-one' and as such can be salvaged with no consequences, but on the other hand shooting wrecks created by someone else can extend the aggro timer.
Could use some consistency and clarification to be honest.
The SALVAGE inside the wreck belongs to no one.. The wreck itself (and the loot therein) belongs to the person(s) who created said wreck... Salvaging is not illegal because the act of salvaging creates something which did not exist before the salvager module succeeded in it's attempt to turn a wreck into salvage...
A wreck should be though of as a container.. It belongs to no one.. The loot inside the container belongs to the person(s) who created the wreck.. The salvage belongs to no one until it is created..
Rules lawyering works in EVE too
Yeah, I get that. Are the wrecks still shootable after they have been salvaged, thus extending the aggro timer? Not trying to start ****, just genuinely curious as a potential ninja-salavger in the the making
(Apologies for bringing this up OP, but these situations are intrinsically linked)
Wrecks don't exist after they've been salvaged. Any items that were in the wreck get placed into cans, which belong to the MR. You can shoot those to extend the timer.
I'd like to point out something that the GM pointed out to the whiney ass in his blog:
Quote:
I can only suggest that when docking up you unclaim ownership of your wrecks, cans and drones in the area before retreating to avoid people using them against you.
CCP gave carebears the game mechanic that would have saved this moron his ship. All he had to do was abandon his wreck field. Did he? Nope. Moron.
CCP needs to take that CNR away and ***** slap that GM.
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Awesome Possum
Gallente Isk Relocation Services
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:25:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Count MonteCarlo
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: Count MonteCarlo
i thought shooting wrecks to extend aggro has been an exploit for 2-3 years, I remember some dude losing a thanatos because of it once and made a big scene of it then ccp declared it as an exploit
which it should be
because its so hard to look in local and see the guy still has aggro on you, amirite?
I know the use of aggro mechanics outside highsec is hard to grasp
are you trolling or are you honestly this stupid
i know only idiots care about aggression timers outside of hisec (the ONLY exception i can think of being small ships on a lowsec gate). or would you really look at your sec status and go "nah i didn't want that thanatos kill anyway."
shooting the player, or anything left in space belonging to the player, extends your aggression timer to them.
CCP did two things to the game to keep this mechanic in place. (1) They fixed aggression timers on the wreck owners, to show the aggression is being refreshed. (2) They gave people the ability to ABANDON wrecks/cans left by them, so they could not be used against them.
So tell me how this is still an exploit?
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Stibbins
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:31:00 -
[37]
This mission runner was in my corp.
For the record Leet Corp is about pvp, about taking it on the chin.
I just kicked him out. When someone in my corp has an issue with another player I want them to bring it to his corp-mates, not petition it.
|
NoChance Lance
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:34:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Wrecks don't exist after they've been salvaged.
This is the bit I don't get then:
MR shoots rat -> creates wreck with loot.
MR takes loot leaving wreck (still flagged as owned by MR) with salvage (free-for-all)
Then possible options are:
1. MR salvages wreck -> nothing left behind to shoot
2. MR shoots wreck -> nothing left for ninja to shoot to maintain aggro.
3. MR leaves wreck unsalvaged and unshot-> can be shot at by ninja-salvager to maintain aggro timer if needed.
Would almost seem to imply that the (potential) salvage is owned... (not cool)
Am I missing something?
_______________________________________________
I'm not afraid of anything or anyone, unless they are wearing a mask. Diego Maradona 2010 |
Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:35:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Stibbins
This mission runner was in my corp.
For the record Leet Corp is about pvp, about taking it on the chin.
I just kicked him out. When someone in my corp has an issue with another player I want them to bring it to his corp-mates, not petition it.
 This thread just got better
Originally by: CCP Capslock
OH GOD THE TESTING
|
Cyberin
Misfit Toys
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:35:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Stibbins
This mission runner was in my corp.
For the record Leet Corp is about pvp, about taking it on the chin.
I just kicked him out. When someone in my corp has an issue with another player I want them to bring it to his corp-mates, not petition it.
Justice is now sort of served then, now his Raven needs to die against to correct the injustice brought about by a Senior GM doing something they shouldn't have done...
|
|
|
Awesome Possum
Gallente Isk Relocation Services
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:42:00 -
[41]
Originally by: NoChance Lance
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Wrecks don't exist after they've been salvaged.
This is the bit I don't get then:
MR shoots rat -> creates wreck with loot.
MR takes loot leaving wreck (still flagged as owned by MR) with salvage (free-for-all)
Then possible options are:
1. MR salvages wreck -> nothing left behind to shoot
2. MR shoots wreck -> nothing left for ninja to shoot to maintain aggro.
3. MR leaves wreck unsalvaged and unshot-> can be shot at by ninja-salvager to maintain aggro timer if needed.
Would almost seem to imply that the (potential) salvage is owned... (not cool)
Am I missing something?
You are missing something.
Salvage does not exist until someone activates a salvager module on a wreck, and it is successful.
Until that point in time, there is no salvage. There is only a wreck. Anyone can activate a salvage module on any wreck without being flagged for it, as wrecks are considered abandoned derelicts by CONCORD/CCP.
The wreck of an NPC ship is flagged to either the MR (in missions, as it is his mission) or to whoever initiated combat on the rat. The wreck of a player's ship is flagged to the player flying it, not the player that destroys the ship.
The loot in wrecks belongs to the MR in a mission, the person initiating combat on an NPC elsewhere, or in the case of PVP the pilot that owned the now destroyed ship.
The possible options really are.
1. MR loots his cans/wrecks -> nothing left behind to flag a ninja to him.
2. MR shoots his cans/wrecks -> nothing left behind to flag a ninja to him.
3. MR leaves wrecks unshot but does NOT shoot at the ninja -> not allowing himself to be flagged to a ninja.
4. MR abandons his wreck field -> no way for a ninja to flag themselves to him, thus negating the possibility that the idiot will shoot the ninja.
5. MR shoots the ninja and deals with the consequences.
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:44:00 -
[42]
Option 5 is the prefered modus operandi
Originally by: CCP Capslock
OH GOD THE TESTING
|
NoChance Lance
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:46:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: NoChance Lance
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Wrecks don't exist after they've been salvaged.
This is the bit I don't get then:
MR shoots rat -> creates wreck with loot.
MR takes loot leaving wreck (still flagged as owned by MR) with salvage (free-for-all)
Then possible options are:
1. MR salvages wreck -> nothing left behind to shoot
2. MR shoots wreck -> nothing left for ninja to shoot to maintain aggro.
3. MR leaves wreck unsalvaged and unshot-> can be shot at by ninja-salvager to maintain aggro timer if needed.
Would almost seem to imply that the (potential) salvage is owned... (not cool)
Am I missing something?
You are missing something.
Salvage does not exist until someone activates a salvager module on a wreck, and it is successful.
Until that point in time, there is no salvage. There is only a wreck. Anyone can activate a salvage module on any wreck without being flagged for it, as wrecks are considered abandoned derelicts by CONCORD/CCP.
The wreck of an NPC ship is flagged to either the MR (in missions, as it is his mission) or to whoever initiated combat on the rat. The wreck of a player's ship is flagged to the player flying it, not the player that destroys the ship.
The loot in wrecks belongs to the MR in a mission, the person initiating combat on an NPC elsewhere, or in the case of PVP the pilot that owned the now destroyed ship.
The possible options really are.
1. MR loots his cans/wrecks -> nothing left behind to flag a ninja to him.
2. MR shoots his cans/wrecks -> nothing left behind to flag a ninja to him.
3. MR leaves wrecks unshot but does NOT shoot at the ninja -> not allowing himself to be flagged to a ninja.
4. MR abandons his wreck field -> no way for a ninja to flag themselves to him, thus negating the possibility that the idiot will shoot the ninja.
5. MR shoots the ninja and deals with the consequences.
Cheers! Sorry for being dense. 
_______________________________________________
I'm not afraid of anything or anyone, unless they are wearing a mask. Diego Maradona 2010 |
Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:57:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Skippermonkey on 11/08/2010 14:58:43
Originally by: Stibbins
For the record Leet Corp is about pvp
Whoa there... you are the leader of a pvp corp? The only recorded instances of your corporation are all losses, and they are an Iteron, a Mammoth and the Navy Raven in question.
Methinks you jest
Originally by: CCP Capslock
OH GOD THE TESTING
|
Velocity Prime
Misfit Toys
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 14:59:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Velocity Prime on 11/08/2010 14:59:55
WTF?
This confirms that the GMs don't know what the **** they are doing and don't know the damn game mechanics. CCP, get your house in order for chrissake. One more nail in the coffin.
Suicide gank party anyone?
We're recruiting! Visit my blog. |
Morago
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:17:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Morago on 11/08/2010 15:18:39
Originally by: Awesome Possum
CCP did two things to the game to keep this mechanic in place. (1) They fixed aggression timers on the wreck owners, to show the aggression is being refreshed. (2) They gave people the ability to ABANDON wrecks/cans left by them, so they could not be used against them.
So tell me how this is still an exploit?
So, CCP then confess, that they sacrifice common sense on the altar of giving more opportunities to PvPers to involve unwilling players to combat? That looks strange, as common sense is carefully guarded in all other cases. (Edit:Putting kill rights on wrong guy makes zero common sense.)
They turned bug into feature? Let all GMs and players know, it's a feature (in common sense it's not).
I'm playing only a few months, but I thought, abandoning is for allowing other people to take your earnings you don't need, without fear that you shoot them.
|
MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:19:00 -
[47]
Tear collectors collecting their own... Tears .
C&P is full of irony.
And it seems to me that someone could potentially have someone else remained agressed for an entire day while that someone else remains docked waiting for the supposed 15-minute aggression timer to run out. This does smell like gray area.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Ori Blake
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:21:00 -
[48]
I can see why, I don't think CCP intended the aggressor to be able to maintain aggression perpetually by shooting wrecks, and mission runners provide so many wrecks that it is approaching grief level play. You can only abandon nearby wrecks, which does no good when you are not on the field. You shouldn't be able to extend an aggro timer hours with no ability to react.
|
SabotNoob
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:22:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
CCP gave carebears the game mechanic that would have saved this moron his ship. All he had to do was abandon his wreck field. Did he? Nope. Moron.
Question on this solution. Can you abandon your wreck field while docked? I don't think so but just wondering. If you can't then obviously you would have to go back to do it in the field but that presents the obvious problem of dealing with the ninja who comes back in a PvP fit (unless you take your own PvP fit to abandon wrecks).
If the MR was truly unaware of this "exploit", then he couldn't have predicted that the ninja would have extended aggro by shooting wrecks over and over again. He might have abandoned his wrecks before warping out if he knew. Otherwise, he waits endlessly for all of his wrecks to be shot up.
I don't know if I could blame the MR for undocking with aggro after that long, I myself might have thought that something was wrong with the game itself since I'm still fairly new (learned otherwise here today). I do blame him for being trigger happy and firing on the aggro'ed ninja. Lots of good information here.
____________________
Chuck Norris can win a game of Connect Four in three moves. |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:26:00 -
[50]
Originally by: SabotNoob
Originally by: Awesome Possum
CCP gave carebears the game mechanic that would have saved this moron his ship. All he had to do was abandon his wreck field. Did he? Nope. Moron.
Question on this solution. Can you abandon your wreck field while docked? I don't think so but just wondering. If you can't then obviously you would have to go back to do it in the field but that presents the obvious problem of dealing with the ninja who comes back in a PvP fit (unless you take your own PvP fit to abandon wrecks).
Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed.
What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked).
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
|
|
SabotNoob
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:42:00 -
[51]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed.
What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked).
What defines nearby wrecks? After what distance are they still player created wrecks?
____________________
Chuck Norris can win a game of Connect Four in three moves. |
Ori Blake
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:50:00 -
[52]
I think nearby wrecks extend to the same mission room or asteroid belt. I haven't tested it though.
|
Kiritsubo
Ritual Suicide
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 15:53:00 -
[53]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed.
What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked).
The existence of carebears is an aggressive action.
|
Awesome Possum
Gallente Isk Relocation Services
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 16:04:00 -
[54]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: SabotNoob
Originally by: Awesome Possum
CCP gave carebears the game mechanic that would have saved this moron his ship. All he had to do was abandon his wreck field. Did he? Nope. Moron.
Question on this solution. Can you abandon your wreck field while docked? I don't think so but just wondering. If you can't then obviously you would have to go back to do it in the field but that presents the obvious problem of dealing with the ninja who comes back in a PvP fit (unless you take your own PvP fit to abandon wrecks).
Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed.
The mission runner chose to shoot at the ninja in the first place.
If the MR had simply abandoned his wreck field, the ninja could NOT have gone red to him in the first place. If the ninja had gone red, and the MR had chosen NOT to shoot the ninja, the ninja could not have shot the MR in the first place.
Mission runners have plenty of mechanics to escape this situation.
As cops and judges love to point out: Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Quote:
What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked).
Just because the mechanics of a game do not work as you wished they would, does not mean that players using the mechanics as they are intended to be used are exploiting.
Lets try this again people
Quote:
The possible options really are.
1. MR loots his cans/wrecks -> nothing left behind to flag a ninja to him.
2. MR shoots his cans/wrecks -> nothing left behind to flag a ninja to him.
3. MR leaves wrecks unshot but does NOT shoot at the ninja -> not allowing himself to be flagged to a ninja.
4. MR abandons his wreck field -> no way for a ninja to flag themselves to him, thus negating the possibility that the idiot will shoot the ninja.
5. MR shoots the ninja and deals with the consequences.
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 16:06:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Kiritsubo
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed.
What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked).
The existence of carebears is an aggressive action.
Oh I know. It's why I think my sig is quite approporiate  .
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Richard Christy
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 16:15:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kiritsubo
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed.
What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked).
The existence of carebears is an aggressive action.
Luckily, you're not forced to interact with them.
|
Spruillo
Gallente
Spruillo Corp
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 16:36:00 -
[57]
Wait a minute wait aminute...
Your saying I...
Could remote rep anyone..
Anyone...
Unsolicited..
And then target paint gate guns...
Please tell me that this is true.
|
Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 16:38:00 -
[58]
ITT: Griefer Tears.
(best tears)
Seriously guys- I'm not some carebear mission runner (a couple of my most recent kills in the last 24h were an orca and a ratting thanny :>)-- but there has to be a limit to the power a griefer has over a mission runner.
Can you honestly say you think it's reasonable to maintain aggro for HOURS after the missioner shoots you? That's just r3tarded. If you want to get more kills, come up with new strategies to lure people into shooting you. Don't abuse flawed mechanics.
CCP has classified shooting wrecks in the past as an exploit. Either link a conflicting devblog or GTFO.
:D
|
Kiritsubo
Ritual Suicide
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 16:38:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Richard Christy
Originally by: Kiritsubo
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed.
What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked).
The existence of carebears is an aggressive action.
Luckily, you're not forced to interact with them.
They exist...
|
Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2010.08.11 16:39:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Spruillo
Wait a minute wait aminute...
Your saying I...
Could remote rep anyone..
Anyone...
Unsolicited..
And then target paint gate guns...
Please tell me that this is true.
Yes....obsolutely..
infact, go and do it right now...
in your shiney faction shipz
Originally by: CCP Capslock
OH GOD THE TESTING
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |