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GM caves to reimbursment demand - Dangerous precedent set

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Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.11 10:33:00 - [1] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 11/08/2010 10:33:09 tl:dr MR loses CNR to a ninja while knowingly undocking with aggro still active, petitions loss, recieves a free CNR. ------- read these two blogs in order then tell me that CCP knows what they are doing. http://stabbedup.blogspot.com/2010/08/eve-stupid-stupid-stupid.html http://stabbedup.blogspot.com/2010/08/eve-exchange-of-views-with-ccp.html Official CCP response would be good; explaining the rationale behind rewarding the stupid Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Teschan Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.08.11 10:53:00 - [2] Tbh its probably a matter of time before this is locked as I believe it's against forum rules to discuss petitions or whatever. What I will say is that either this pilot is saving face on his blog and outright lying about his reimbursement, or the rumours are true and CCP really do give carebears everything they want. Having lost ships to blackscreens and entering game loops during fleet fights and never having them replaced after a week long wait just for a reply, I'd find it very disappointing but not completely unexpected if this guys ship was replaced. His petitions responses read like a typical whining carebear who doesn't understand the game properly and just wants to sit unmolested in carebearland all day moaning about how other people are in his MMO.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:04:00 - [3] Interesting .... I hope CCP is ready for the ****storm of petitions that will spawn now ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Jack Dant Minmatar The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:25:00 - [4] To be completely fair to the GMs, the reason why he got reinbursed was that his original aggro timer was extended for an hour, presumably by shooting wrecks. I guess this is the first step towards extending aggro being declared an exploit.
Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:25:00 - [5] Originally by: Ressiv Nothing is true, everything is permitted Couldn't have been a better sig in this topic! I don't think (or maybe don't want to believe) that even the staff making such horrible decisions as sacrificing quality for quantity is THIS bad! Does the mechanic make little-to-no sense...Yes, of course.. Is it a valid and LONG-KNOWN game mechanic...Yes, of course.. How many people lost ships and other crap when deep safes were removed? Better yet, how many people were reimbursed when someone using a deep safe popped them?? ZERO Either no reimbursment happened, or CCP is failing in more areas than just develeopment priorities! --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)
Marlona Sky D00M. Excessum Messor	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:35:00 - [6] Suddenly Ninja tears, best tears. I love it when care bears grief you guys.
Scrapyard Attendant Minmatar Insurance Fraud LTD	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:38:00 - [7] Edited by: Scrapyard Attendant on 11/08/2010 11:42:50 I am in disebelief as to how CCP could possibly do this. Its like when people lose ships to concord by others that get GCCed in hisec while theyre being repped, CCP will do nothing yet its a blatant exploitation of the concord mechanics... you dont even get a criminal warning, its totally unavoidable. And these people do not get reimbursed. (i did not do this, i know someone who it happened to)
K'Mahk	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:40:00 - [8] Edited by: K''Mahk on 11/08/2010 11:42:24 Hmm..... Ninja tears...... how strange... C'mon guys, you use mechanics and assume that everything you use is 'working as intended' Some things are 'as intended' such as the looting = aggression timers, however reseting the aggression timer (Remember that you started it, he escalated it with his act of aggression towards you) should be kept at the 'I can abuse and/or kill you as per my favorite whims' stage by you acting against his wrecks?? Whether you agree with the GSM's decision or not, he made a decision, would you rather he sat on his hands all day ignoring every request that came in for any kind of issue? Based on the mission runners comments in the Blog, I'd say he was doing his best to remain reasonable, and to get an answer out of CCP, he probably did not expect to get the ship back, and based on his comments, he probably did not read your blogs. (Shocking I know, but not everyone takes a Sun Tzu View to intelligence) and thus was not familiar with your favorite devious tricks, yes, this game punishes you for doing something stupid, yeah, he did something stupid, he honestly believed the game had glitched and/or faulted and he petitioned CCP based on that belief and opinion. CCP took him at his word (probably after checking his account's history of such petitions and his previous loss-mails) and made a decision that they thought was fair, you can stand on the side-lines and scream 'FOUL' if you want, but it ain't gonna change CCPs decision, so now I get to use the term you all love to throw around whenever a Mission runner or miner complains about your tactics... HTFU!!! IT'S A GAME!! and the GM's rule is STILL absolute. EDIT: To replace Filth-Filtered word
Xtreem Gallente DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:45:00 - [9] file a report that he got it back and the lead up, and ask it to be looked at by a senior GM, as they need to have a set way of doing it. also you cant talk about the gm's replies for this very reason.. they tend to all be made up on the spot and if we all get together about it then they will get rumbled :D
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Xtreem also you cant talk about the gm's replies for this very reason.. they tend to all be made up on the spot and if we all get together about it then they will get rumbled :D No, it's because they would be obsolete if their word would not be in-game law. If the football players themselves would get to judge on in-game actions, there wouldnt be much of a game left. In this case, the only thing I can think of is that the GM concluded that this guy was honestly not aware of the extending agro 'feature', and this lead to his loss. While he could have went HTFU, he choose to be kind. They are just humans, prone to all kinds of mistakes and unrational behaviour like everyone else. If this same person gets another CNR back from them after loosing it the same way, then we have an issue, as in that case, someone clearly favours stupid. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================

Khors Amtek Inc	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:01:00 - [11] Funny how they replace a lost ship lost to this known game mechanic and at the same time refuse to replace ships lost to the black screen of doom that may occur when you undock (a known bug as of recently, but I guess that we should avoid undocking). If this extending aggro is an exploit or not, this story suggests incompetence and very selective behaviour among GM's.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:02:00 - [12] Edited by: Miilla on 11/08/2010 12:02:53 Why don't I sound supprised. CCP staff caught helping other players scandal at 11! I wish they would stop sending petition emails for every response to my real life email inbox. I now reply with an auto "DO NOT SPAM" response with gay male on male icelandic pron in the signiture.
Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Xtreem he choose to be kind. And you just hit the root of the problem we have with this HORRIBLE lack of judgement and understanding of the EVE universe... EVE is hard! CCP advertises this game as a "harsh universe" Well, how harsh is a universe where you can say, "But I didn't know!!!" and get mistakes magically erased?? Try that the next time you run a stop sign... --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)
K'Mahk	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:18:00 - [14] Edited by: K''Mahk on 11/08/2010 12:19:34 Originally by: Khors this story suggests incompetence and very selective behaviour among GM's. You've never had to work with Customer Support departments or warranty claims from the service provider's point of view have you? It usually goes like this... (non-specific claim) "I don't think it should have failed it isn't 'that' old" Leads to "No I don't have the Proof of Purchase, who keeps those anyway?" which leads to "We don't want to have this person causing us any more trouble, we'll replace their old machine (5-10 years old based on model of machine and damage) and just make them go away, their constant phone calls are going to cost us as much as the new machine." Consistency isn't a constant in the Customer support industry, people tend to complain to newspapers when 'one rule for all' is actually followed. Bigger thing is the fact that if a Mission runner got ganked and complained in this sub-forum that 'my ship wasn't replaced, big mean bully killed my loverly ship and took my ransom ISK anyway' 'CCP Big meanies for not replacing ship' you'd all be in here defending CCP!!! however, the ship was replaced, the mission runner did not cry, and you are now behaving like the bully, who having taken a smaller child's lollipop and stomped it into the mud and laughed at his impotent rage, screams that it's unfair when the child goes to it's mother, tells her what happened and asks (politely) for another lollipop and gets one. You are in here screaming and complaining because the missioner got something you don't think he should have gotten. If you are really so upset about this, get a dozen or so battleships together, warp into his mission, and Suicide gank his ship, 'cause that's a valid game mechanic. Best I can see, the only people who lucked out on this whole incident are the other mission grinders trying to sell CNRs on the contracts market... one less customer for them. Seriously guys, as you are so fond of saying, HTFU.
Mo0seluffer	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:26:00 - [15] Originally by: Zanaraxtarus Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Xtreem he choose to be kind. And you just hit the root of the problem we have with this HORRIBLE lack of judgement and understanding of the EVE universe... EVE is hard! CCP advertises this game as a "harsh universe" Well, how harsh is a universe where you can say, "But I didn't know!!!" and get mistakes magically erased?? Try that the next time you run a stop sign... I ran a stop sign i didnt know about.Was completly honest with the officer about me never being in that area before.Didnt have insurance.And still recieved a warnig.Got my car back (which was 5 feet away from the police cruiser) and made my way to the next stargate (freeway onramp)...Honest mistake is honest.
Count MonteCarlo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:28:00 - [16] i thought shooting wrecks to extend aggro has been an exploit for 2-3 years, I remember some dude losing a thanatos because of it once and made a big scene of it then ccp declared it as an exploit which it should be
Kavu Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Count MonteCarlo i thought shooting wrecks to extend aggro has been an exploit for 2-3 years, I remember some dude losing a thanatos because of it once and made a big scene of it then ccp declared it as an exploit which it should be o/
Richard Christy	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:42:00 - [18] Originally by: K'Mahk Edited by: K''Mahk on 11/08/2010 11:42:24 Hmm..... Ninja tears...... how strange... lol
Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:43:00 - [19] RE: Customer support dealings- Originally by: K'Mahk It usually goes like this... (non-specific claim) "I don't think it should have failed it isn't 'that' old" Leads to "No I don't have the Proof of Purchase, who keeps those anyway?" which leads to "We don't want to have this person causing us any more trouble, we'll replace their old machine (5-10 years old based on model of machine and damage) and just make them go away, their constant phone calls are going to cost us as much as the new machine." Got my 40something'' t.v. turned into a 56'' that way Originally by: K'Mahk you'd all be in here defending CCP!!! Ummm... NO --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)
NoChance Lance	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:44:00 - [20] I'm not defending this one way or the other, but it does seem a little ambiguous that on one hand CCP says wrecks 'belong to no-one' and as such can be salvaged with no consequences, but on the other hand shooting wrecks created by someone else can extend the aggro timer. Could use some consistency and clarification to be honest. _______________________________________________ I'm not afraid of anything or anyone, unless they are wearing a mask. Diego Maradona 2010

Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:45:00 - [21] Originally by: Mo0seluffer Originally by: Zanaraxtarus Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Xtreem he choose to be kind. And you just hit the root of the problem we have with this HORRIBLE lack of judgement and understanding of the EVE universe... EVE is hard! CCP advertises this game as a "harsh universe" Well, how harsh is a universe where you can say, "But I didn't know!!!" and get mistakes magically erased?? Try that the next time you run a stop sign... I ran a stop sign i didnt know about.Was completly honest with the officer about me never being in that area before.Didnt have insurance.And still recieved a warnig.Got my car back (which was 5 feet away from the police cruiser) and made my way to the next stargate (freeway onramp)...Honest mistake is honest. Proof that there are fail cops as well as fail CCP employees... It's illegal and you DO get ticketed for it, unless you get a pansy-ass cop or you're hot... --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)
Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:50:00 - [22] Originally by: NoChance Lance I'm not defending this one way or the other, but it does seem a little ambiguous that on one hand CCP says wrecks 'belong to no-one' and as such can be salvaged with no consequences, but on the other hand shooting wrecks created by someone else can extend the aggro timer. Could use some consistency and clarification to be honest. The SALVAGE inside the wreck belongs to no one.. The wreck itself (and the loot therein) belongs to the person(s) who created said wreck... Salvaging is not illegal because the act of salvaging creates something which did not exist before the salvager module succeeded in it's attempt to turn a wreck into salvage... A wreck should be though of as a container.. It belongs to no one.. The loot inside the container belongs to the person(s) who created the wreck.. The salvage belongs to no one until it is created.. Rules lawyering works in EVE too --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)
Xtreem Gallente DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:55:00 - [23] in effect there needs to a rule one and for all. you die under agro.. you die. eve is evil and harsh place.
Mo0seluffer	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:58:00 - [24] I ran a stop sign i didnt know about.Was completly honest with the officer about me never being in that area before.Didnt have insurance.And still recieved a warnig.Got my car back (which was 5 feet away from the police cruiser) and made my way to the next stargate (freeway onramp)...Honest mistake is honest. Proof that there are fail cops as well as fail CCP employees... It's illegal and you DO get ticketed for it, unless you get a pansy-ass cop or you're hot... Even more proof of why the world is the way it is now.Keep making excuses and dodging the reality of it all there Zanadoo.You cant keep modifing the mechanics or excuses.The whole wreck is no ones.Nor the loot inside.As you ninjas have always said.1st come 1st served.If the wreck is the OPS why no aggression when someone salvages it?CAUSE IT ISNT HIS!
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.11 13:04:00 - [25] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 11/08/2010 13:05:39 Originally by: Marlona Sky Suddenly Ninja tears, best tears. I love it when care bears grief you guys. The kill in question has nothing to do with my corp, I just dont like that CCP are reimbursing ships lost due to combat. Avoidable combat at that. Its obvious that the player undocked while he was under aggro, he confesses as much in his blog, as such why des he qualify for reimbursement? Also, if it was 'deemed an exploit 3 years ago', as others have mentioned, there has been enough time to rectify the situation. It remains the same, so i guess its not an exploit. (Even more so with the recent stealth-patch to aggro extension now that the 'target' is aware his timer is being extended: also admitted to in the blog) ALL this is about is consistent rulings in the game, like others have mentioned, if this sticks, why not reimburse ships lost to 'real' issues? EDIT - Please dont bring the 'ownership of salvage' into question in this thread. That has been debated to death, and CCP has ruled consistently that salvage is a free for all and loot is not. Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Captain Yifan Shadows Of The Requiem Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.08.11 13:12:00 - [26] Edited by: Captain Yifan on 11/08/2010 13:14:08 This is rather a question of: "is extending the aggro timer via the method of shooting wrecks an exploit or not?" And I'd love to hear from CCP. But unfortunately, reimburse after a totally legitemate kill is not a good start on the part of CCP.
Cyberin Misfit Toys	Posted - 2010.08.11 13:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Count MonteCarlo i thought shooting wrecks to extend aggro has been an exploit for 2-3 years, I remember some dude losing a thanatos because of it once and made a big scene of it then ccp declared it as an exploit which it should be This is a good point, and something I always wonder about it. It was labelled an exploit not because you could extend aggro, but because the aggro timer for the other person didn't get updated...so they didn't KNOW they had aggro. CCP fixed this...now they KNOW they have aggro. Why would they have fixed the timer and not removed the entire feature if it's an exploit? I would really love to see a Dev response on this subject...it's something that is often used and really, really needs to be clarified.
Richard Christy	Posted - 2010.08.11 13:26:00 - [28] Originally by: NoChance Lance I'm not defending this one way or the other, but it does seem a little ambiguous that on one hand CCP says wrecks 'belong to no-one' and as such can be salvaged with no consequences, but on the other hand shooting wrecks created by someone else can extend the aggro timer. Could use some consistency and clarification to be honest. Very good point. Then again, logic has no place in Eve.
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:08:00 - [29] Originally by: Count MonteCarlo i thought shooting wrecks to extend aggro has been an exploit for 2-3 years, I remember some dude losing a thanatos because of it once and made a big scene of it then ccp declared it as an exploit which it should be because its so hard to look in local and see the guy still has aggro on you, amirite? ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Kneebone Heathens' Harbor	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:09:00 - [30] Must be nice, I lost mine a few weeks ago due to a bug in the client. GM that reviewed the case said "no trouble found" but they still recommended it over to a support GM to fix a problem that had no impact on the server, but directly resulted in my losing a ship. I am a carebear, this person should not have gotten his ship back. It could just be that the purpose of your life is to server as a warning to others.

NoChance Lance	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:12:00 - [31] Originally by: Zanaraxtarus Originally by: NoChance Lance I'm not defending this one way or the other, but it does seem a little ambiguous that on one hand CCP says wrecks 'belong to no-one' and as such can be salvaged with no consequences, but on the other hand shooting wrecks created by someone else can extend the aggro timer. Could use some consistency and clarification to be honest. The SALVAGE inside the wreck belongs to no one.. The wreck itself (and the loot therein) belongs to the person(s) who created said wreck... Salvaging is not illegal because the act of salvaging creates something which did not exist before the salvager module succeeded in it's attempt to turn a wreck into salvage... A wreck should be though of as a container.. It belongs to no one.. The loot inside the container belongs to the person(s) who created the wreck.. The salvage belongs to no one until it is created.. Rules lawyering works in EVE too Yeah, I get that. Are the wrecks still shootable after they have been salvaged, thus extending the aggro timer? Not trying to start ***, just genuinely curious as a potential ninja-salavger in the the making (Apologies for bringing this up OP, but these situations are intrinsically linked) _______________________________________________ I'm not afraid of anything or anyone, unless they are wearing a mask. Diego Maradona 2010*
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:14:00 - [32] More disturbing than some GM making bad decisions is the carebears request to have his killer banned from the game. "oh noes he messed with my pixels. please throw him out of the sandbox" Talk about butthurt.
Ktudgha Tuth	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:15:00 - [33] I can't see how shooting someone's possesions should give shooter kill rights on wreckage owner. What's next? Make CONCORD help ninja, who flies in and shoots someone's else wreck? There's a statement: commit an agression against person and have him had kill rights on you for 15 mins. He did agression -- you have kill rights on him for 15 mins. We have "ninja did agression -- ninja has kill rights". It's clearly against logic, and it's a bug, which CCP didn't care to fix properly. So, technically, runner is right, ninja has exploited the bug. Truth has nothing to do with the fact said bug existed for 3 years. On the other side, you must be unconsciously wanting to lose CNR, if you undock with timer showing on screen, even if it shouldn't be there. Putting your head into imaginary's lion mouth will eventually result loss of head, even if lions don't usually walk on your street. There are shuttles to check if display is right or wrong. So, my personal opinion: runner hasn't deserved reimbursement (as rewarding uncautioness is against spirit of game), and ninja deserved punishment for exploiting.
Count MonteCarlo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:17:00 - [34] Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: Count MonteCarlo i thought shooting wrecks to extend aggro has been an exploit for 2-3 years, I remember some dude losing a thanatos because of it once and made a big scene of it then ccp declared it as an exploit which it should be because its so hard to look in local and see the guy still has aggro on you, amirite? I know the use of aggro mechanics outside highsec is hard to grasp are you trolling or are you honestly this stupid
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:17:00 - [35] Originally by: NoChance Lance Originally by: Zanaraxtarus Originally by: NoChance Lance I'm not defending this one way or the other, but it does seem a little ambiguous that on one hand CCP says wrecks 'belong to no-one' and as such can be salvaged with no consequences, but on the other hand shooting wrecks created by someone else can extend the aggro timer. Could use some consistency and clarification to be honest. The SALVAGE inside the wreck belongs to no one.. The wreck itself (and the loot therein) belongs to the person(s) who created said wreck... Salvaging is not illegal because the act of salvaging creates something which did not exist before the salvager module succeeded in it's attempt to turn a wreck into salvage... A wreck should be though of as a container.. It belongs to no one.. The loot inside the container belongs to the person(s) who created the wreck.. The salvage belongs to no one until it is created.. Rules lawyering works in EVE too Yeah, I get that. Are the wrecks still shootable after they have been salvaged, thus extending the aggro timer? Not trying to start **, just genuinely curious as a potential ninja-salavger in the the making (Apologies for bringing this up OP, but these situations are intrinsically linked) Wrecks don't exist after they've been salvaged. Any items that were in the wreck get placed into cans, which belong to the MR. You can shoot those to extend the timer. I'd like to point out something that the GM pointed out to the whiney ass in his blog: Quote: I can only suggest that when docking up you unclaim ownership of your wrecks, cans and drones in the area before retreating to avoid people using them against you. CCP gave carebears the game mechanic that would have saved this moron his ship. All he had to do was abandon his wreck field. Did he? Nope. Moron. CCP needs to take that CNR away and *** slap that GM. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:25:00 - [36] Originally by: Count MonteCarlo Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: Count MonteCarlo i thought shooting wrecks to extend aggro has been an exploit for 2-3 years, I remember some dude losing a thanatos because of it once and made a big scene of it then ccp declared it as an exploit which it should be because its so hard to look in local and see the guy still has aggro on you, amirite? I know the use of aggro mechanics outside highsec is hard to grasp are you trolling or are you honestly this stupid i know only idiots care about aggression timers outside of hisec (the ONLY exception i can think of being small ships on a lowsec gate). or would you really look at your sec status and go "nah i didn't want that thanatos kill anyway." shooting the player, or anything left in space belonging to the player, extends your aggression timer to them. CCP did two things to the game to keep this mechanic in place. (1) They fixed aggression timers on the wreck owners, to show the aggression is being refreshed. (2) They gave people the ability to ABANDON wrecks/cans left by them, so they could not be used against them. So tell me how this is still an exploit? ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Stibbins	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:31:00 - [37] This mission runner was in my corp. For the record Leet Corp is about pvp, about taking it on the chin. I just kicked him out. When someone in my corp has an issue with another player I want them to bring it to his corp-mates, not petition it.
NoChance Lance	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:34:00 - [38] Originally by: Awesome Possum Wrecks don't exist after they've been salvaged. This is the bit I don't get then: MR shoots rat -> creates wreck with loot. MR takes loot leaving wreck (still flagged as owned by MR) with salvage (free-for-all) Then possible options are: 1. MR salvages wreck -> nothing left behind to shoot 2. MR shoots wreck -> nothing left for ninja to shoot to maintain aggro. 3. MR leaves wreck unsalvaged and unshot-> can be shot at by ninja-salvager to maintain aggro timer if needed. Would almost seem to imply that the (potential) salvage is owned... (not cool) Am I missing something? _______________________________________________ I'm not afraid of anything or anyone, unless they are wearing a mask. Diego Maradona 2010
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:35:00 - [39] Originally by: Stibbins This mission runner was in my corp. For the record Leet Corp is about pvp, about taking it on the chin. I just kicked him out. When someone in my corp has an issue with another player I want them to bring it to his corp-mates, not petition it. This thread just got better Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Cyberin Misfit Toys	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:35:00 - [40] Originally by: Stibbins This mission runner was in my corp. For the record Leet Corp is about pvp, about taking it on the chin. I just kicked him out. When someone in my corp has an issue with another player I want them to bring it to his corp-mates, not petition it. Justice is now sort of served then, now his Raven needs to die against to correct the injustice brought about by a Senior GM doing something they shouldn't have done...

Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:42:00 - [41] Originally by: NoChance Lance Originally by: Awesome Possum Wrecks don't exist after they've been salvaged. This is the bit I don't get then: MR shoots rat -> creates wreck with loot. MR takes loot leaving wreck (still flagged as owned by MR) with salvage (free-for-all) Then possible options are: 1. MR salvages wreck -> nothing left behind to shoot 2. MR shoots wreck -> nothing left for ninja to shoot to maintain aggro. 3. MR leaves wreck unsalvaged and unshot-> can be shot at by ninja-salvager to maintain aggro timer if needed. Would almost seem to imply that the (potential) salvage is owned... (not cool) Am I missing something? You are missing something. Salvage does not exist until someone activates a salvager module on a wreck, and it is successful. Until that point in time, there is no salvage. There is only a wreck. Anyone can activate a salvage module on any wreck without being flagged for it, as wrecks are considered abandoned derelicts by CONCORD/CCP. The wreck of an NPC ship is flagged to either the MR (in missions, as it is his mission) or to whoever initiated combat on the rat. The wreck of a player's ship is flagged to the player flying it, not the player that destroys the ship. The loot in wrecks belongs to the MR in a mission, the person initiating combat on an NPC elsewhere, or in the case of PVP the pilot that owned the now destroyed ship. The possible options really are. 1. MR loots his cans/wrecks -> nothing left behind to flag a ninja to him. 2. MR shoots his cans/wrecks -> nothing left behind to flag a ninja to him. 3. MR leaves wrecks unshot but does NOT shoot at the ninja -> not allowing himself to be flagged to a ninja. 4. MR abandons his wreck field -> no way for a ninja to flag themselves to him, thus negating the possibility that the idiot will shoot the ninja. 5. MR shoots the ninja and deals with the consequences. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:44:00 - [42] Option 5 is the prefered modus operandi Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
NoChance Lance	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:46:00 - [43] Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: NoChance Lance Originally by: Awesome Possum Wrecks don't exist after they've been salvaged. This is the bit I don't get then: MR shoots rat -> creates wreck with loot. MR takes loot leaving wreck (still flagged as owned by MR) with salvage (free-for-all) Then possible options are: 1. MR salvages wreck -> nothing left behind to shoot 2. MR shoots wreck -> nothing left for ninja to shoot to maintain aggro. 3. MR leaves wreck unsalvaged and unshot-> can be shot at by ninja-salvager to maintain aggro timer if needed. Would almost seem to imply that the (potential) salvage is owned... (not cool) Am I missing something? You are missing something. Salvage does not exist until someone activates a salvager module on a wreck, and it is successful. Until that point in time, there is no salvage. There is only a wreck. Anyone can activate a salvage module on any wreck without being flagged for it, as wrecks are considered abandoned derelicts by CONCORD/CCP. The wreck of an NPC ship is flagged to either the MR (in missions, as it is his mission) or to whoever initiated combat on the rat. The wreck of a player's ship is flagged to the player flying it, not the player that destroys the ship. The loot in wrecks belongs to the MR in a mission, the person initiating combat on an NPC elsewhere, or in the case of PVP the pilot that owned the now destroyed ship. The possible options really are. 1. MR loots his cans/wrecks -> nothing left behind to flag a ninja to him. 2. MR shoots his cans/wrecks -> nothing left behind to flag a ninja to him. 3. MR leaves wrecks unshot but does NOT shoot at the ninja -> not allowing himself to be flagged to a ninja. 4. MR abandons his wreck field -> no way for a ninja to flag themselves to him, thus negating the possibility that the idiot will shoot the ninja. 5. MR shoots the ninja and deals with the consequences. Cheers! Sorry for being dense. _______________________________________________ I'm not afraid of anything or anyone, unless they are wearing a mask. Diego Maradona 2010
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:57:00 - [44] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 11/08/2010 14:58:43 Originally by: Stibbins For the record Leet Corp is about pvp Whoa there... you are the leader of a pvp corp? The only recorded instances of your corporation are all losses, and they are an Iteron, a Mammoth and the Navy Raven in question. Methinks you jest Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Velocity Prime Misfit Toys	Posted - 2010.08.11 14:59:00 - [45] Edited by: Velocity Prime on 11/08/2010 14:59:55 WTF? This confirms that the GMs don't know what the **** they are doing and don't know the damn game mechanics. CCP, get your house in order for chrissake. One more nail in the coffin. Suicide gank party anyone? We're recruiting! Visit my blog.
Morago	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:17:00 - [46] Edited by: Morago on 11/08/2010 15:18:39 Originally by: Awesome Possum CCP did two things to the game to keep this mechanic in place. (1) They fixed aggression timers on the wreck owners, to show the aggression is being refreshed. (2) They gave people the ability to ABANDON wrecks/cans left by them, so they could not be used against them. So tell me how this is still an exploit? So, CCP then confess, that they sacrifice common sense on the altar of giving more opportunities to PvPers to involve unwilling players to combat? That looks strange, as common sense is carefully guarded in all other cases. (Edit:Putting kill rights on wrong guy makes zero common sense.) They turned bug into feature? Let all GMs and players know, it's a feature (in common sense it's not). I'm playing only a few months, but I thought, abandoning is for allowing other people to take your earnings you don't need, without fear that you shoot them.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:19:00 - [47] Tear collectors collecting their own... Tears . C&P is full of irony. And it seems to me that someone could potentially have someone else remained agressed for an entire day while that someone else remains docked waiting for the supposed 15-minute aggression timer to run out. This does smell like gray area. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Ori Blake	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:21:00 - [48] I can see why, I don't think CCP intended the aggressor to be able to maintain aggression perpetually by shooting wrecks, and mission runners provide so many wrecks that it is approaching grief level play. You can only abandon nearby wrecks, which does no good when you are not on the field. You shouldn't be able to extend an aggro timer hours with no ability to react.
SabotNoob	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:22:00 - [49] Originally by: Awesome Possum CCP gave carebears the game mechanic that would have saved this moron his ship. All he had to do was abandon his wreck field. Did he? Nope. Moron. Question on this solution. Can you abandon your wreck field while docked? I don't think so but just wondering. If you can't then obviously you would have to go back to do it in the field but that presents the obvious problem of dealing with the ninja who comes back in a PvP fit (unless you take your own PvP fit to abandon wrecks). If the MR was truly unaware of this "exploit", then he couldn't have predicted that the ninja would have extended aggro by shooting wrecks over and over again. He might have abandoned his wrecks before warping out if he knew. Otherwise, he waits endlessly for all of his wrecks to be shot up. I don't know if I could blame the MR for undocking with aggro after that long, I myself might have thought that something was wrong with the game itself since I'm still fairly new (learned otherwise here today). I do blame him for being trigger happy and firing on the aggro'ed ninja. Lots of good information here. ____________________ Chuck Norris can win a game of Connect Four in three moves.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:26:00 - [50] Originally by: SabotNoob Originally by: Awesome Possum CCP gave carebears the game mechanic that would have saved this moron his ship. All he had to do was abandon his wreck field. Did he? Nope. Moron. Question on this solution. Can you abandon your wreck field while docked? I don't think so but just wondering. If you can't then obviously you would have to go back to do it in the field but that presents the obvious problem of dealing with the ninja who comes back in a PvP fit (unless you take your own PvP fit to abandon wrecks). Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed. What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked). Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!

SabotNoob	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:42:00 - [51] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed. What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked). What defines nearby wrecks? After what distance are they still player created wrecks? ____________________ Chuck Norris can win a game of Connect Four in three moves.
Ori Blake	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:50:00 - [52] I think nearby wrecks extend to the same mission room or asteroid belt. I haven't tested it though.
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:53:00 - [53] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed. What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked). The existence of carebears is an aggressive action.
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.11 16:04:00 - [54] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: SabotNoob Originally by: Awesome Possum CCP gave carebears the game mechanic that would have saved this moron his ship. All he had to do was abandon his wreck field. Did he? Nope. Moron. Question on this solution. Can you abandon your wreck field while docked? I don't think so but just wondering. If you can't then obviously you would have to go back to do it in the field but that presents the obvious problem of dealing with the ninja who comes back in a PvP fit (unless you take your own PvP fit to abandon wrecks). Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed. The mission runner chose to shoot at the ninja in the first place. If the MR had simply abandoned his wreck field, the ninja could NOT have gone red to him in the first place. If the ninja had gone red, and the MR had chosen NOT to shoot the ninja, the ninja could not have shot the MR in the first place. Mission runners have plenty of mechanics to escape this situation. As cops and judges love to point out: Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Quote: What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked). Just because the mechanics of a game do not work as you wished they would, does not mean that players using the mechanics as they are intended to be used are exploiting. Lets try this again people Quote: The possible options really are. 1. MR loots his cans/wrecks -> nothing left behind to flag a ninja to him. 2. MR shoots his cans/wrecks -> nothing left behind to flag a ninja to him. 3. MR leaves wrecks unshot but does NOT shoot at the ninja -> not allowing himself to be flagged to a ninja. 4. MR abandons his wreck field -> no way for a ninja to flag themselves to him, thus negating the possibility that the idiot will shoot the ninja. 5. MR shoots the ninja and deals with the consequences. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.11 16:06:00 - [55] Originally by: Kiritsubo Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed. What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked). The existence of carebears is an aggressive action. Oh I know. It's why I think my sig is quite approporiate . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Richard Christy	Posted - 2010.08.11 16:15:00 - [56] Originally by: Kiritsubo Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed. What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked). The existence of carebears is an aggressive action. Luckily, you're not forced to interact with them.
Spruillo Gallente Spruillo Corp	Posted - 2010.08.11 16:36:00 - [57] Wait a minute wait aminute... Your saying I... Could remote rep anyone.. Anyone... Unsolicited.. And then target paint gate guns... Please tell me that this is true.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.08.11 16:38:00 - [58] ITT: Griefer Tears. (best tears) Seriously guys- I'm not some carebear mission runner (a couple of my most recent kills in the last 24h were an orca and a ratting thanny :>)-- but there has to be a limit to the power a griefer has over a mission runner. Can you honestly say you think it's reasonable to maintain aggro for HOURS after the missioner shoots you? That's just r3tarded. If you want to get more kills, come up with new strategies to lure people into shooting you. Don't abuse flawed mechanics. CCP has classified shooting wrecks in the past as an exploit. Either link a conflicting devblog or GTFO. :D
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.11 16:38:00 - [59] Originally by: Richard Christy Originally by: Kiritsubo Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Not only can you not do that but you can only abandon nearby wrecks. So if a mission runner has wrecks ALL OVER the place he's screwed. What the aggressor was doing was borderline exploit. The 15-minute aggression timer is supposed to last that much as long as that person isn't aggressing (ie docked). The existence of carebears is an aggressive action. Luckily, you're not forced to interact with them. They exist...
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.11 16:39:00 - [60] Originally by: Spruillo Wait a minute wait aminute... Your saying I... Could remote rep anyone.. Anyone... Unsolicited.. And then target paint gate guns... Please tell me that this is true. Yes....obsolutely.. infact, go and do it right now... in your shiney faction shipz Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING

Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.11 16:47:00 - [61] Edited by: Kiritsubo on 11/08/2010 16:47:57 Originally by: Tortugan CCP has classified shooting wrecks in the past as an exploit. Either link a conflicting devblog or GTFO. NO U! U show me devblog that piloting Vagabond not eXploitz! Seriously, saying something is an exploit and then putting the onus on me to prove it isn't is asking me to prove the negative. You show me the Devblog addressing aggro extension as an exploit.
OneTimeAt BannedSpank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.08.11 16:57:00 - [62] Originally by: Tortugan CCP has classified shooting wrecks in the past as an exploit. Either link a conflicting devblog or GTFO. ITT: Ninjas will only further prove they are literally pathetic. ~ One million alts cant be wrong.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.11 16:59:00 - [63] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 11/08/2010 17:01:58 ah, the usual C&P crowd has arrived, 3rd page though, a little late arent you? Making claims about what CCP has said without linking that statement is more useless than not commenting in the first place Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Xearal Minmatar SOL Industries Kamikaze Project	Posted - 2010.08.11 17:01:00 - [64] I'll take the word of people that extending aggro like this is not considered an exploit, and in this light, he should not have gotten the CNR back. ( bad move on CCP there, though I can understand a DM having a little humanity, the guy waited for over an hour to undock ) I can fully see why people find this unfair, as many people have lost stuff to bugs/lag/whathaveyouthatisnotsupposedtohappen. The logic on the timer however, is something I find faulty as well. 1. MR shoots rats, makes wrecks 2. Ninja comes in and salvages wrecks, no problem. 3. Ninja takes loot from wrecks -> Ninja is flagged and can be agressed safely. HOWEVER! Doing so will initiate: 4. MR is agressed to Ninja, and Ninja can rightfully fight back for 15 minutes. Following this: 5. MR halfway in the fight decides it's a bad idea, and manages to escape and dock up. 6. MR sits in station to wait for the counter to go to 0 so he's safe again. Now for the non-logical part: 7 Ninja agresses the wrecks left behind( in a hurry, so no time to abandon ), causing the timer of the MR to extend while MR is not doing anything to agress the Ninja. LOGICALLY would be: 7 Ninja agresses wrecks, HIS timer that he can be shot at without concord interfering extends. Meanwhile, as the MR is not doing anything against the Ninja, the timer on the MR that the Ninja can shoot him keeps going down till it reaches 0, and the Ninja can no longer shoot him without concord getting **ed. Result 8 If MR undocks after said 15 minute time is up, he's safe from being shot at by the Ninja, conversely as the ninja has been playing with his wreck and extending the timer, the MR can go find the ninja and shoot at him without concord being ed. If he does so, HIS agression timer starts again, and the Ninja has another 15 minutes to shoot back without concord being **ed. As it stands, my opninion is that unless this is changed, extending the timer like this SHOULD be considered an exploit as the idea behind agression is bringing harm to someone in some way, aka shooting, stealing, whatnot. As the one who's timer is being extended by this 'trick' is not doing any of the above, his timer should not be extended.
OneTimeAt BannedSpank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.08.11 17:01:00 - [65] Got to sleep sometime. Originally by: Cyberin IÆm extremely upset that you got your ship back. You were killed by valid ingame tactics, and one that ninjas use every day. Extending aggro is not an exploit, nor is it cheating. It is a functioning game mechanicàif you shoot me, I extend aggro. Your aggression timer was still showingà.so you still KNEW that he could kill youàso you made two mistakes. You shot a ninja, and then you undocked when you KNEW he could kill you. I will be making my own petition to ask about this, as well as linking your blog here in C&P (hope you donÆt mindà) to see what others think about this. I have no qualms with people getting ships back if stuff was exploitedàbut in your case, there was no exploits usedàand you should NOT have gotten a ship back. Cry me a fcking river jesus christ literally babbies. Also lol ~ One million alts cant be wrong.
Alazontez Gallenteur Gallente Wolf-Monkey Bastards WolfMonkey Bastards	Posted - 2010.08.11 17:10:00 - [66] Only 1 comment to make to all those going on about a ninja being able to renew aggro indefinitely. Wrecks despawn after 2 hours. So there you go, there's the window. Not espousing support or condemnation for any parties involved, just pointing out a clearly overlooked detail. ---------------------------------------------- There is no honor in war, only victory and defeat Not needing a fleet and not bringing a fleet are 2 completely different things. - Lana Torrin
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.11 17:13:00 - [67] Originally by: OneTimeAt BannedSpank Cry me a fcking river jesus christ literally babbies. Also lol Literally about ninjas.
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.08.11 17:15:00 - [68] Best thing to do in this case is let the whining baby keep his CNR. However, slap him with a savage reprimand for publicising GM to Player communications, which is a clear breach of the rules. It was his own cluelessness and inability to understand game mechanics that got him killed. That's no problem but his. >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Hashpipe Malone	Posted - 2010.08.11 17:42:00 - [69] Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: Stibbins This mission runner was in my corp. For the record Leet Corp is about pvp, about taking it on the chin. I just kicked him out. When someone in my corp has an issue with another player I want them to bring it to his corp-mates, not petition it. This thread just got better how long till leetcorp is decked?
Donatien de'Sade Ars Notoria	Posted - 2010.08.11 17:45:00 - [70] Nearest i could find - Linky ----------------------------------------------------------- In the beginning the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move

Cyberin Misfit Toys	Posted - 2010.08.11 17:45:00 - [71] Originally by: Hashpipe Malone Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: Stibbins This mission runner was in my corp. For the record Leet Corp is about pvp, about taking it on the chin. I just kicked him out. When someone in my corp has an issue with another player I want them to bring it to his corp-mates, not petition it. This thread just got better how long till leetcorp is decked? 48 hours i'd assume
debbie harrio	Posted - 2010.08.11 18:21:00 - [72] hehe, Bin Divers' tears, the best tears by far. This has been deemed an exploit and I am not too bothered to look for the devblog that states it, some people that know far more about the game also agree, just keep crying bin divers.
Velocity Prime Misfit Toys	Posted - 2010.08.11 18:36:00 - [73] Originally by: Hashpipe Malone Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: Stibbins This mission runner was in my corp. For the record Leet Corp is about pvp, about taking it on the chin. I just kicked him out. When someone in my corp has an issue with another player I want them to bring it to his corp-mates, not petition it. This thread just got better how long till leetcorp is decked? The vote is already in. We're recruiting! Visit my blog.
Count MonteCarlo Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.11 18:49:00 - [74] Edited by: Count MonteCarlo on 11/08/2010 18:50:09 Originally by: Awesome Possum i know only idiots care about aggression timers outside of hisec (the ONLY exception i can think of being small ships on a lowsec gate). or would you really look at your sec status and go "nah i didn't want that thanatos kill anyway." shooting the player, or anything left in space belonging to the player, extends your aggression timer to them. CCP did three* things to the game to keep this mechanic in place. (1) They fixed aggression timers on the wreck owners, to show the aggression is being refreshed. (2) They gave people the ability to ABANDON wrecks/cans left by them, so they could not be used against them. (3) This Worthless BOX!, yes I'm ****ing sure I want to undock! So tell me how this is still an exploit? aggro timer doesnt show in 0.0 like it does in empire, unless they changed it again when it involves getting your wrecks shot, not sure if you still can, but you used to be able kill some dudes by shooting their wrecks and camping them in long enough for them to want to log, some cap kills and super cap kills was produced by this, including the thanatos, there was no way for the thanatos to know that he would stay in space after logging tortugans post is accurate, and besides high sec pvpers are so risk averse that they're nearly if not as bad as mission runners
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.11 20:01:00 - [75] Originally by: Count MonteCarlo Edited by: Count MonteCarlo on 11/08/2010 18:50:09 Originally by: Awesome Possum i know only idiots care about aggression timers outside of hisec (the ONLY exception i can think of being small ships on a lowsec gate). or would you really look at your sec status and go "nah i didn't want that thanatos kill anyway." shooting the player, or anything left in space belonging to the player, extends your aggression timer to them. CCP did three* things to the game to keep this mechanic in place. (1) They fixed aggression timers on the wreck owners, to show the aggression is being refreshed. (2) They gave people the ability to ABANDON wrecks/cans left by them, so they could not be used against them. (3) This Worthless BOX!, yes I'm **ing sure I want to undock! So tell me how this is still an exploit? aggro timer doesnt show in 0.0 like it does in empire, unless they changed it again when it involves getting your wrecks shot, not sure if you still can, but you used to be able kill some dudes by shooting their wrecks and camping them in long enough for them to want to log, some cap kills and super cap kills was produced by this, including the thanatos, there was no way for the thanatos to know that he would stay in space after logging Thanks for explaining that, seems obvious now its been said. I'd be willing to bet that was before the aggression timer change was put in. Now he'd be shown that the aggression was refreshed and he would not be allowed to log off safely just yet. This whole wreck shooting situation sucks more for cap pilots, than it does for MRs in high sec. The thanny's story doesn't change the fact that CCP has recently placed 3 changes that would have kept that CNR from being blown up if the pilot had been thinking for even a moment. The aggression timer refreshing when a wreck/can has been aggressed is just proof to me that its a viable tactic allowed by CCP and game mechanics. Quote: tortugans post is accurate, and besides high sec pvpers are so risk averse that they're nearly if not as bad as mission runners just cause some of you go small group roaming or solo a lot doesn't mean that everyone in null does, you know this statement could just as easily apply to most people in null. ** yeah tortugan v0v ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Andrea Skye Caldari The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.11 20:54:00 - [76] Ok, so after reading the blog, it sseems he was waiting out an agression timer. But it kept resetting (due to the ninja looter shooting his wreck). Stupidly he went out to play with it still on and ended up getting killed. It does seem like a bug, if it is all true (tho that kinda thing must of been in the game for ages so why havent CCP fixed it?) I wouldnt care so much about him getting reimbursed. But one time I got podded with high grade snakes. I was in warp (my logs even said I was warping to a belt) and somehow I got hit by artillery. I petitioned (I hardly erver petition anything, and I have a lost a whole ton of ships, so I wouldnt petition unless i think something unatural happened) But CCP basically just told me to ** off. Why does this guy get reimbursed, when he died to game MECHANICS and I get podded due to bull** and get told to gtfo.
Jones Bones Final Agony	Posted - 2010.08.11 21:10:00 - [77] Originally by: Andrea Skye Stuff Because CCP hates pirates.
Bryg Philomena Don't Taze Me Bro	Posted - 2010.08.11 21:11:00 - [78] Originally by: Jack Dant To be completely fair to the GMs, the reason why he got reinbursed was that his original aggro timer was extended for an hour, presumably by shooting wrecks. I guess this is the first step towards extending aggro being declared an exploit. I thought this WAS an exploit. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars??? Your signature
Atomik Harmonik	Posted - 2010.08.11 21:20:00 - [79] Originally by: Bryg Philomena Originally by: Jack Dant To be completely fair to the GMs, the reason why he got reinbursed was that his original aggro timer was extended for an hour, presumably by shooting wrecks. I guess this is the first step towards extending aggro being declared an exploit. I thought this WAS an exploit. Did you even bother reading the guy's blog? (and the CCP initial response therein?)
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.11 21:43:00 - [80] Originally by: Andrea Skye Ok, so after reading the blog, it sseems he was waiting out an agression timer. But it kept resetting (due to the ninja looter shooting his wreck). Stupidly he went out to play with it still on and ended up getting killed. It does seem like a bug, if it is all true (tho that kinda thing must of been in the game for ages so why havent CCP fixed it?) I wouldnt care so much about him getting reimbursed. But one time I got podded with high grade snakes. I was in warp (my logs even said I was warping to a belt) and somehow I got hit by artillery. I petitioned (I hardly erver petition anything, and I have a lost a whole ton of ships, so I wouldnt petition unless i think something unatural happened) But CCP basically just told me to ** off. Why does this guy get reimbursed, when he died to game MECHANICS and I get podded due to bull** and get told to gtfo. Did you escalate? It sounds like you might have gotten shafted by a low level. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!

Xenuria Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.08.11 23:13:00 - [81] Originally by: Skippermonkey Edited by: Skippermonkey on 11/08/2010 14:40:09 tl:dr MR loses CNR to a ninja while knowingly undocking with aggro still active, petitions loss, recieves a free CNR. ------- read these two blogs in order then tell me that CCP knows what they are doing. http://stabbedup.blogspot.com/2010/08/eve-stupid-stupid-stupid.html http://stabbedup.blogspot.com/2010/08/eve-exchange-of-views-with-ccp.html Official CCP response would be good; explaining the rationale behind rewarding the stupid Linky for original blog post regarding aforementioned stupid I looked at this thread title and expected intelligent and stimulating discussion. What I found was some toolbag that dosent know how eve works.
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.11 23:43:00 - [82] Originally by: Xenuria I ... expected intelligent and stimulating discussion. In my C&P? ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 00:02:00 - [83] Thanks for the comment Xenuria, but if i really wanted to know what the special bus thought i would have asked you personally Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
debbie harrio	Posted - 2010.08.12 00:55:00 - [84] Originally by: Skippermonkey Thanks for the comment Xenuria, but if i really wanted to know what the special bus thought i would have asked you personally Are you STILL crying bin diver? get over it, you abused an exploit, the guy got reimbursed, carry on using it and then your tears will be real.
Wee Girl Amarr Misfit Toys	Posted - 2010.08.12 02:05:00 - [85] Originally by: debbie harrio get over it, you abused an exploit, the guy got reimbursed, carry on using it and then your tears will be real. Snicker. The sign of a carebear who didn't actually read the thread. Skippermonkey wasn't involved. :) But, this thread is fun. We should keep it going as long as we can...let's see....how to do that.... I know! But....it's not an exploit you moron. The guy lost his ship because he lost his patience and undocked with aggro. He had to have clicked "ok" when he got the pop-up warning him that he was still in combat and at risk if he undocked. I know, maybe we should introduce a second pop-up that says, "No, seriously dude. You're going to lose your faction-fit CNR if you undock! Are you REALLY sure you want to do this?"... It's kind of like getting the Concord "Dangerous Act" confirmation pop-up telling you that if you shoot that other ship Concord will own your ass, and then clicking "OK"... You then promptly get your ship blown up and you sure as hell won't get it back by filing a petition... GM's should have some discretion, but it does seem unfair that pilots who lose their ships to DCs, lag, bugs, etc. get nothing, and douches like this get reimbursed. I hope the GM in question is squirming a bit today. Wee
LittleTerror Sound Of Inevitability	Posted - 2010.08.12 02:40:00 - [86] Edited by: LittleTerror on 12/08/2010 02:42:30 Edited by: LittleTerror on 12/08/2010 02:40:23 @OP People petitioned their lose all the time after jumping into our gate camp, yet when we lose ships due to a real bug and not being a complete idiot GM's never replaced our ships, discuss that... Many times lag out losing nice ships to sentrys never replaced ever yet joe ****** has his new CNR the next day, only for us to kill again...
LittleTerror Sound Of Inevitability	Posted - 2010.08.12 02:45:00 - [87] Oh any sentrys sometimes apparently hit for over 8000 damage and that's a feature, again ship lose never replaced.
Srialia Misfit Toys	Posted - 2010.08.12 03:01:00 - [88] Edited by: Srialia on 12/08/2010 03:02:09 Edited by: Srialia on 12/08/2010 03:01:25 I'm halfway to believing this is an attempt to get back at the ganker the only way he can - by making him believe that his effort wasn't as painful for the mission runner as he thought. There's no proof of the reimbursement and the blogger posted an obvious troll response in this very thread. The fact that this ploy elicited a lot of collateral rage is just a bonus. So really, who wins here? Answer: griefers. Mission runner was griefed, so he comes up with a plan to counter-grief. A lot of "innocent" people get caught in the crossfire. So congratulations, Stibbins. You are now a griefer. One of us. Welcome.
LittleTerror Sound Of Inevitability	Posted - 2010.08.12 03:10:00 - [89] Dear ccp, OH BOOHOO I lagged out and lost my ship with billions in mods when doing one of your missions, everything just froze when I jumped into x system, so I logged out and when I logged back in I was in a pod... Dear player thank you for your evemail our logs show nothing but we give you a new ship anyway so you don't rage quit. Works fine tbh.
OneTimeAt BannedSpank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.08.12 03:10:00 - [90] ~ One million alts cant be wrong.

Zumra	Posted - 2010.08.12 04:08:00 - [91] Originally by: Alazontez Gallenteur Only 1 comment to make to all those going on about a ninja being able to renew aggro indefinitely. Wrecks despawn after 2 hours. So there you go, there's the window. Not espousing support or condemnation for any parties involved, just pointing out a clearly overlooked detail. But before the 2 hours you can salvage a can which you will have to play with for a while. I am also pretty sure if you kill one of the spawns you get a fresh new wreck with the mission runners name on it. So you can keep agro fro 23 hours theoretically, until the next downtime. I also believe it makes no sense that a timer letting you be attacked by another player for 15 minutes after you make an aggressive action towards them; may be extended 22:45minutes by them shooting at your wrecks, or better yet by killing pirates in your mission and then shooting/neuting/scramming those wrecks.
Belfelmalak	Posted - 2010.08.12 05:39:00 - [92] What freakin differance does it make to the Ninja if the bear got his cuddly back? Did it take away his joy at griefing the guy? Did he lose his killmail? (sob)Griefers and pirates always laugh at people for whining, but isn't this whole thread one long tantrum? Who gives a crap if CCP caved, doing so didn't hurt the Ninja, so everyone should stop acting like they got their Wheaties ***ed in.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.08.12 06:41:00 - [93] Originally by: Belfelmalak What freakin differance does it make to the Ninja if the bear got his cuddly back? Did it take away his joy at griefing the guy? Did he lose his killmail? (sob)Griefers and pirates always laugh at people for whining, but isn't this whole thread one long tantrum? Who gives a crap if CCP caved, doing so didn't hurt the Ninja, so everyone should stop acting like they got their Wheaties ***ed in. You're forgetting. This sets a DANGEROUS PRECEDENT. I once knew a dangerous precedent. It was called GEORGE BUSH. HE IS A DANGEROUS MAN YOU SEE. :D
Lana Torrin Minmatar Republic Military Skool HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.12 06:45:00 - [94] Originally by: Tortugan You're forgetting. This sets a DANGEROUS PRECEDENT. I once knew a dangerous precedent. It was called GEORGE BUSH. HE IS A DANGEROUS MAN YOU SEE. Q F F T Replying to threads without reading them since 2008
Aessoroz	Posted - 2010.08.12 06:47:00 - [95] The only solution to this problem and many others is to drop all sec status from empire. There aggression timers for every single ****ing kind of problem from neutral RR ships and POSes to this are solved.
Belfelmalak	Posted - 2010.08.12 06:48:00 - [96] Originally by: Tortugan.[/quote You're forgetting. This sets a DANGEROUS PRECEDENT. I once knew a dangerous precedent. It was called GEORGE BUSH. HE IS A DANGEROUS MAN YOU SEE. A slippery slope indeed. Now we have the Obamanation, so the theory is proved, it only gets worse farther down the slope.
ISK1machine	Posted - 2010.08.12 07:14:00 - [97] So the Nija guy basically camped an acceleration gate for over an hour waiting for the missioner to return.. Oh dear,who needs low sec and null sec to PVP when there are so many thrills in empire.No wonder i never see Ninja's in low sec. P.S:no i never lost a ship from a ninja.One came in my mission site once,warped out the BS came back with an untanked arbitrator and send my brand new Hammerheads T2 his way.Unfortunatelly i then realised that i didnt had a point fitted.Fortunate for me it was a Ninja guy and he still died without beeing scrammed---->win
F90OEX F9X WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.08.12 10:21:00 - [98] Speaking of CNR's and all that, I'd like to announce that CNR's will be increasing in price over the next few weeks, this is due to the fact my dirty Gallente slaves went on strike. There seemed light at the end of the tunnel, but then I received this mail.... Dear F900EX Unlimited CNR's BPO Inc and Gallente Slave Union management have been in continuous mediation since last week and with the help and suggestions of the UCNR have made substantial progress and approved a tentative agreement. The TA satisfies the goals, but is subject to completion of contract language and approval of a satisfactory return to work agreement before being presented to the membership for ratification. Even with the completion of contract issues, additional details still need to be worked out regarding the important return to work issues. We expect to update you later today with further news. However, until all provisions are met, we remain on strike. I have to admit, upon receiving this mail I lost it, I needed them back to work this week those lazy dirty bast..rds, I got on comms which connects to 1000s of slave homes and dropped the F bomb on them, I told them after 3 years of this crap I had it, F them all.. and they can starve and be homeless for all I care and don't be expecting there 100 Isk pay check... I give them 1 inch, they want a mile. Thing is, I don't think they took that very well since I could see a large group gather outside in the old rusty T1 frigs, so rather than face the music, I grabbed my beers, and slided down the emergency exit into the State Raven, un-docked and warped off. I said to myself as I could tell they where spamming there lock button, "this is going to get rather interesting". Too be continued.......
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.08.12 10:27:00 - [99] lol. almost as good as privateers whining about "they can loot the wrecks from our kills and we cant do anything". CCP should finally fix the bug that the wreck owner doesnt see the extended aggression timer. then they could leave the mechanic in place but both sides would have the information.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 10:32:00 - [100] Originally by: darius mclever lol. almost as good as privateers whining about "they can loot the wrecks from our kills and we cant do anything". CCP should finally fix the bug that the wreck owner doesnt see the extended aggression timer. then they could leave the mechanic in place but both sides would have the information. Hey braniac, they did that already Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING

Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.12 10:49:00 - [101] Originally by: OneTimeAt BannedSpank I don't get it. Can you circle the important part?
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.08.12 10:52:00 - [102] Originally by: Skippermonkey Hey braniac, they did that already Then it was missing in the release notes. when was the fix deployed?
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 10:56:00 - [103] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 12/08/2010 10:57:26 Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Skippermonkey Hey braniac, they did that already Then it was missing in the release notes. when was the fix deployed? No idea, it was a stealth fix.. but it has happened maybe Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Ktudgha Tuth	Posted - 2010.08.12 10:58:00 - [104] Originally by: Tortugan You're forgetting. This sets a DANGEROUS PRECEDENT. Calling exploit an "exploit" is dangerous precedent. If that continues, we couldn't exploit bugs anymore!
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2010.08.12 11:02:00 - [105] Originally by: Count MonteCarlo i thought shooting wrecks to extend aggro has been an exploit for 2-3 years, I remember some dude losing a thanatos because of it once and made a big scene of it then ccp declared it as an exploit which it should be Surely three years promoted it from exploit to valid game mechanic, it can't be that hard to add a check in the code to not extend aggro if a wreck/can is involved. Surely CCP can fix a pretty simple bug in three years right? Right? No they can't and timers are a mess. They'll get to it in 18 months I guess.
Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.08.12 11:58:00 - [106] I see somebody that waited out his 15 minute aggression timer, and still got killed. I dont call that a whiny carebear, I call that a victim of exploitation. Okay, he's a carebear, but the reimbursement was valid. Now if it had been during his normal aggression timer, then I would have no sympathy. I beleive this action to be valid, he should not have been under aggression for an hour.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 12:05:00 - [107] Originally by: Stoopid blog About 40 minutes later I came back. Strange, still 8 minutes on the timer. OK, I know better than to rush out with a timer on, I stayed in dock and read forums. It kept jumping back to 9 minutes whenever it hit 7 minutes. Odd. After about 20 minutes of this I decided to risk a quick sortie to the mission. In my lovely Caldari Navy Raven with faction shield booster. You know what happened, right? I mean I know what happened and I would have known what happened next even if I didn't know what happened next. A Tengu. Waiting. At my acceleration gate. See, he knew what was waiting for him and jumped to his death anyway. Where exactly was the action that allows him to regain his ship for free? Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.12 12:08:00 - [108] Originally by: Mo0seluffer I ran a stop sign i didnt know about.Was completly honest with the officer about me never being in that area before.Didnt have insurance.And still recieved a warnig.Got my car back (which was 5 feet away from the police cruiser) and made my way to the next stargate (freeway onramp)...Honest mistake is honest. Proof that there are fail cops as well as fail CCP employees... It's illegal and you DO get ticketed for it, unless you get a pansy-ass cop or you're hot... Even more proof of why the world is the way it is now.Keep making excuses and dodging the reality of it all there Zanadoo.You cant keep modifing the mechanics or excuses.The whole wreck is no ones.Nor the loot inside.As you ninjas have always said.1st come 1st served.If the wreck is the OPS why no aggression when someone salvages it?CAUSE IT ISNT HIS! Umm... If that was directed at me, you completely missed my point... The WRECK belongs to no one (well, technically it belongs to the person who was piloting the ship, but in this case that was an NPC, so moot point).. The items inside the wreck belong to the person who created the wreck.. Just like the salvage belongs to the person who created it, since it is non-existant until the Salvager module finishes a successful cycle... It's not difficult to understand.. And I'm not a ninja.. Tried it.. Didn't like it, it's boring... I'm merely pointing out the mechanics behind the topic.. And there is no aggro when someone salvages a wreck because it doesn't belong to anyone.. Only the contents of the wreck belong to someone (think I screwed that up in my op)...you're wrong in saying the loot inside the wreck is no one's.. That's why an aggro timer starts when you steal and item from a wreck.. Because you took something which belonged to someone else... There have been a couple of dev posts explaining this.. Why is it still a topic????? Oh, and it's Xanadu, not Zanadoo..... (yeah, I'm old enough to remember that HORRID movie ) --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)
Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.12 12:10:00 - [109] Originally by: Aiwha aggression for an hour. No one was under an aggression timer for an hour.. He was under an aggression timer which lasted 15 minutes, but was being reset by a prick trying to nab a 'bear --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)
Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.12 12:17:00 - [110] Originally by: Xearal What she said Yes, you're right in that it SHOULD be considered an exploit, but it isn't... If it were, there'd be an officail dev post about it and it (hopefully) would've been fixed by now... So, if we want it classed as an exploit (or fixed) then EVERYONE needs to abuse this mechanic on a DAILY basis! CCP would be flooded with 'bear tears to the point of being forced to make a decision or take a REAL action... Problem solved (oh, and fun and 'bear tears created) --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)

Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.08.12 12:18:00 - [111] Originally by: Zanaraxtarus Originally by: Aiwha aggression for an hour. No one was under an aggression timer for an hour.. He was under an aggression timer which lasted 15 minutes, but was being reset by a prick trying to nab a 'bear He served his waiting time in station, and a third party extended it. That doesent fit in with CCP's generally accepted game mechanics, CONCORD. CONCORD lets you engage somebody who steals from your wreck, okay, you can shoot at them, they can now shoot at you. You dock, 15 minutes later, since nothings happened, CONCORD no longer allows fighting between the two of you. Now explain how popping wrecks should allow the "ebil highsec piwate" to KEEP his ability to attack the carebear? Doesn't make sense from a lore standpoint, or a game mechanic standpoint. Sounds to me like CCP needs to patch that up, or keep awarding carebears their ships back when somebody uses that as an exploit.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 12:21:00 - [112] Originally by: Zanaraxtarus So, if we want it classed as an exploit (or fixed) then EVERYONE needs to abuse this mechanic on a DAILY basis! Hate to burst your bubble, but it does get used EVERY DAY...FOR THE PAST THREE YEARS Anyway, CCP have more pressing matters, like making a 3D dress for you to look pretty in when you walk in your station waiting out the two hour aggro timer because you shot at somebody taking 'your stuffs' Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.12 12:23:00 - [113] Originally by: NoChance Lance Am I missing something? Yeah, you're missing that there is NO ownership of items which do not exist and salvage does not exist until a salvager module completes a successful cycle... The item then created (salvage) belongs to the owner of the module which created it... --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)
Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.12 12:25:00 - [114] Originally by: Skippermonkey Hate to burst your bubble Sarcasm detection failed... --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)
Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.12 12:28:00 - [115] Originally by: Aiwha Doesn't make sense from a lore standpoint, or a game mechanic standpoint I don't think anyone (and I know not myself) is trying to say this makes sense, only that it is how it currently is... --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)
Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.12 12:31:00 - [116] Originally by: Awesome Possum Stuffz POSSUM! You are still here.. I wondered how many of the good reads from last year would still be playing.. Was afraid you'd quit when CCP started showing who really matters (anyone attracted by "new shinnies") --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)
Mickey Simon TEMPLAR.	Posted - 2010.08.12 12:32:00 - [117] Without reading the majority of this topic. Gj, you used an exploit to kill a mission runner and he got his ship back. Things that are ****ed about this: 1) The mission runner asking for the ninja to be banned for cheating and having a list of demands. It's just lol. 2) The OP. Seriously. The guy got his ship reimbursed because the ninja used an exploit to get a kill. That sounds like quality pvp right there. 3) The ****s who are all "CRY MORE MISSION RUNNER" and "YOUR TEARS FUEL MY SHIP". Glad you think this sort of risk averse pvp is cool and makes you good at this game or whatever. 4) The exploit itself. Yes, it should be fixed. No, it hasn't been fixed yet. No doubt it's on a similar level of prioritisation as POS bowling (or has that been fixed yet?). Perhaps it occurs for a random reason and it's really hard to find the particular piece of code which does it, or perhaps it's because the code is the same code used for player aggression and it's hard to change without a significant amount of testing which at the moment is not feasible due to stuff which has already been timelined? Either way, deal with it. As it stands currently ninja's get more kills then they would otherwise, and mission runners get their ships reimbursed slightly more often. It's not perfect, and it'd be better it was a non-issue but having a whinge on the forums about whatever you can whinge about isn't going to change anything in this case.
Daniel Cordova	Posted - 2010.08.12 13:00:00 - [118] Edited by: Daniel Cordova on 12/08/2010 13:00:41 Sorry for the noob question, but I'm trying to understand. So someone can keep me aggressed for 2 hours without me doing anything? I'm not following the logic here. If someone else is doing the shooting after the fifteen minutes are up how is it possible that I'm viewed as the aggressor when I'm docked up doing nothing?
Mickey Simon TEMPLAR.	Posted - 2010.08.12 13:22:00 - [119] Originally by: Daniel Cordova Edited by: Daniel Cordova on 12/08/2010 13:00:41 Sorry for the noob question, but I'm trying to understand. So someone can keep me aggressed for 2 hours without me doing anything? I'm not following the logic here. If someone else is doing the shooting after the fifteen minutes are up how is it possible that I'm viewed as the aggressor when I'm docked up doing nothing? Yes, they can keep you aggressed for 2 hours without you doing anything. That's why it's an exploit. I think perhaps, the reason it works as it does currently, is that a wreck is a player object - the same as a ship (despite CCP being fine about salvaging). If you shoot a wreck of a person you are not aggressed to, you get a GCC (in hisec/losec) the same as you would if you shot their ship. Perhaps they use the same section of code. It does need to be fixed, it's pretty broken but at least they're aware of it and are reimbursing players.
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.12 13:44:00 - [120] Not sure what the argument here is about. The Senior GM has declared this to be an exploit. So it's an exploit. He got his ship back as a result. The only precedent that was set here is: Extending an aggression timer via shooting wrecks is an exploit and unintended. Orca Pilot Sale

Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.08.12 13:49:00 - [121] Originally by: Sader Rykane Not sure what the argument here is about. The Senior GM has declared this to be an exploit. So it's an exploit. He got his ship back as a result. The only precedent that was set here is: Extending an aggression timer via shooting wrecks is an exploit and unintended. Piwates who wont risk real piracy want it to be a game mechanic. They QQ, blah blah blah...
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.12 13:58:00 - [122] Originally by: Aiwha Piwates who wont risk real piracy want it to be a game mechanic. They QQ, blah blah blah... I'm not against ninjas in my missions or even pirates. What they do is usually a valid form of PvP, although it does tend to make them a bit soft though. 90% of the ninjas who come to my mission never get anything from me, or end up losing ships to me because they aren't used to coming against a "carebear" whose ready for them. That being said, this isn't about pirates or carebears, it's an unintended game mechanic. It doesn't matter how long its been like that, or whether everyone should know about it (and for the record, I know about this particular mechanic though its never been employed vs me), it is unintended. Now you seem to forget that another precedent has been set here, the pirate that performed this action didn't get reprimanded. So you can still use this particular exploit without getting "banned" or even hand slapped. So keep doing it and you'll eventually find a mission runner who won't petition it and you get to keep his loots. You lost, take it on the chin and try again. Don't bring it up on the forums because now you're making sure more of your "targets" know its petitionable and that's just counterproductive to your "pirating". Orca Pilot Sale
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 13:59:00 - [123] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 12/08/2010 14:00:58 Originally by: Aiwha Piwates who wont risk real piracy want it to be a game mechanic. They QQ, blah blah blah... So you must be one of those "If i wanted pvp i'd go to losec/null" kinda guys eh? Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.12 14:09:00 - [124] Originally by: Skippermonkey Edited by: Skippermonkey on 12/08/2010 14:00:58 Originally by: Aiwha Piwates who wont risk real piracy want it to be a game mechanic. They QQ, blah blah blah... So you must be one of those "If i wanted pvp i'd go to losec/null" kinda guys eh? Listen to the lowbear, real men camp stations with carriers.
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.12 14:15:00 - [125] Originally by: Sader Rykane Not sure what the argument here is about. The Senior GM has declared this to be an exploit. So it's an exploit. He got his ship back as a result. The only precedent that was set here is: Extending an aggression timer via shooting wrecks is an exploit and unintended. I see no quote by a senior GM stating this is an exploit, please post it. Lots of whiners in this thread. I'm guessing you "low/null sec leet pvpers" don't like the thought of your carebear alts being in danger. Just because a game mechanic does not work the way you thought it does, does not make it an exploit when it is used by someone who understands it. Shooting at anything out in space that is owned by a player; ship, drone, POS, anchored containers, cans, or wrecks, refreshes the aggression timer. Its That Simple If you cannot stand the thought of putting yourself in that sort of situation, don't leave anything in space. The idiot MR shot at a ninja, the idiot MR lost his ship due to it. He could have ignored the ninja. He could have abandoned his wrecks. He could have shot his wrecks. He could have left the area. He could have logged out. He could have undocked in something OTHER than his CNR. He didn't. He saw the aggression timer refreshing, he clicked the box that allowed him to undock his CNR while in combat, and he died. The fact that he states he was happy to get his pod away safely shows how little he knows about aggro mechanics. The fact that he states he saw the aggression timer jumping from 7 to 9 minutes shows he is either lying/embellishing his story, or just wasn't even really paying attention to begin with. The timer refreshes to 14m (14m59s on mouse over) for both players. I hope you're taking notes, there will be a test. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.12 14:25:00 - [126] Originally by: Awesome Possum Lots of whiners in this thread. Yep. Starting with the OP and followed by you. Take your own advice and stop whining about this already. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 14:28:00 - [127] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 12/08/2010 14:34:07 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Awesome Possum Lots of whiners in this thread. Yep. Starting with the OP and followed by you. Take your own advice and stop whining about this already. ...said the biggest carebear in this thread Matrix Skye's record on Battleclinic is truely puzzling Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.12 14:35:00 - [128] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 12/08/2010 14:35:24 Originally by: Skippermonkey Edited by: Skippermonkey on 12/08/2010 14:34:07 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Awesome Possum Lots of whiners in this thread. Yep. Starting with the OP and followed by you. Take your own advice and stop whining about this already. ...said the biggest carebear in this thread Matrix Skye's record on Battleclinic is truely puzzling Ninjas calling others carebears . Too cute. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 14:38:00 - [129] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Griefer beware: If you cross my path I WILL blast you :). thats cute Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.12 14:41:00 - [130] Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: Sader Rykane Not sure what the argument here is about. The Senior GM has declared this to be an exploit. So it's an exploit. He got his ship back as a result. The only precedent that was set here is: Extending an aggression timer via shooting wrecks is an exploit and unintended. I see no quote by a senior GM stating this is an exploit, please post it. Lots of whiners in this thread. I'm guessing you "low/null sec leet pvpers" don't like the thought of your carebear alts being in danger. Just because a game mechanic does not work the way you thought it does, does not make it an exploit when it is used by someone who understands it. Shooting at anything out in space that is owned by a player; ship, drone, POS, anchored containers, cans, or wrecks, refreshes the aggression timer. Its That Simple If you cannot stand the thought of putting yourself in that sort of situation, don't leave anything in space. The idiot MR shot at a ninja, the idiot MR lost his ship due to it. He could have ignored the ninja. He could have abandoned his wrecks. He could have shot his wrecks. He could have left the area. He could have logged out. He could have undocked in something OTHER than his CNR. He didn't. He saw the aggression timer refreshing, he clicked the box that allowed him to undock his CNR while in combat, and he died. The fact that he states he was happy to get his pod away safely shows how little he knows about aggro mechanics. The fact that he states he saw the aggression timer jumping from 7 to 9 minutes shows he is either lying/embellishing his story, or just wasn't even really paying attention to begin with. The timer refreshes to 14m (14m59s on mouse over) for both players. I hope you're taking notes, there will be a test. Read his blog... Quote: If you encounter this gain I strongly encourage you not to undock and rather contact us through a petition, such as Agent Mission In Progress or Exploits, whichever is applicable to you. This permits us to limit or eliminate penalties against you and investigate this in more detail. Why would you tell him to petition it under exploits if it wasn't an exploit? Orca Pilot Sale

Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 14:44:00 - [131] Originally by: Sader Rykane Why would you tell him to petition it under exploits if it wasn't an exploit? Which was the point of the original post. The GM fked up. Originally by:** CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.12 14:46:00 - [132] Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: Sader Rykane Why would you tell him to petition it under exploits if it wasn't an exploit? Which was the point of the original post. The GM fked up. According to you.** For me whatever a senior GM says is law, like it or not he's the authority not you. If he gets overturned later than so be it, I honestly don't care either way. That being said: He is right and you are WRONG until his decision is overturned. Orca Pilot Sale
OneTimeAt BannedSpank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:01:00 - [133] CCP Skippermonkey has clearly stated his official stance on this. Who are we, the lowly players, to defy his ruling? ~ One million alts cant be wrong.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:03:00 - [134] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 12/08/2010 15:04:21 [ / THREAD ] Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:04:00 - [135] Originally by: Skippermonkey [ / THREAD ] So basically instead of replying to me, you're just going to make jokes and keep screaming "I'm right, I'm right" to the rafters and rooftops right?
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:15:00 - [136] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 12/08/2010 14:38:41 Originally by: Skippermonkey Edited by: Skippermonkey on 12/08/2010 14:34:07 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Awesome Possum Lots of whiners in this thread. Yep. Starting with the OP and followed by you. Take your own advice and stop whining about this already. ...said the biggest carebear in this thread Matrix Skye's record on Battleclinic is truely puzzling Ninjas calling others carebears . You guys are too cute. We're all carebears now...
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:16:00 - [137] Originally by: Sader Rykane Originally by: Skippermonkey [ / THREAD ] So basically instead of replying to me, you're just going to make jokes and keep screaming "I'm right, I'm right" to the rafters and rooftops right? Well we are on page 5 of a thread that was designed to illicit a response from a CCP employee, and that isnt going to happen any time soon it seems. So, as much as im enjoying this 'my opinion is better than yours' match, there isnt much more to add, other than to troll each other into oblivion. Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:19:00 - [138] Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: Sader Rykane Originally by: Skippermonkey [ / THREAD ] So basically instead of replying to me, you're just going to make jokes and keep screaming "I'm right, I'm right" to the rafters and rooftops right? Well we are on page 5 of a thread that was designed to illicit a response from a CCP employee, and that isnt going to happen any time soon it seems. So, as much as im enjoying this 'my opinion is better than yours' match, there isnt much more to add, other than to troll each other into oblivion. There isn't an opinion here. You don't play the game I want you to play. I don't play the game you want me to play. We play the game THEY want us to play. Now if you were smart, you'd delete this post or have it locked before you warn more people about this mechanic.
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:21:00 - [139] Originally by: Sader Rykane Quote: If you encounter this gain I strongly encourage you not to undock and rather contact us through a petition, such as Agent Mission In Progress or Exploits, whichever is applicable to you. This permits us to limit or eliminate penalties against you and investigate this in more detail. Why would you tell him to petition it under exploits if it wasn't an exploit? I'm referring to a GM post on these forums that can be linked to. Not some cut/paste from a blog. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
OneTimeAt BannedSpank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:23:00 - [140] You don't ask for dev responses by making a stupid thread, you file a petition. Even a noob like you should know better than this. ~ One million alts cant be wrong.

Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:25:00 - [141] Originally by: Sader Rykane Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: Sader Rykane Originally by: Skippermonkey [ / THREAD ] So basically instead of replying to me, you're just going to make jokes and keep screaming "I'm right, I'm right" to the rafters and rooftops right? Well we are on page 5 of a thread that was designed to illicit a response from a CCP employee, and that isnt going to happen any time soon it seems. So, as much as im enjoying this 'my opinion is better than yours' match, there isnt much more to add, other than to troll each other into oblivion. There isn't an opinion here. You don't play the game I want you to play. I don't play the game you want me to play. We play the game THEY want us to play. Now if you were smart, you'd delete this post or have it locked before you warn more people about this mechanic. Hmmm, could this be the trolling i mentioned? We are all bound by the same game mechanics, therefore play the same game. What we choose to do can differ, but with the aggro rules the way they are, yes you ARE playing the game i want to play. You get your knickers in a twist when somebody takes your space pixels and get all shooty Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
OneTimeAt BannedSpank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:28:00 - [142] Edited by: OneTimeAt BannedSpank on 12/08/2010 15:27:52 Originally by: Skippermonkey You get your knickers in a twist when somebody takes your space pixels and get all shooty YOU get your knickers in a twist when someone gets their space pixels replaced. How is that any better? ~ One million alts cant be wrong.
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:29:00 - [143] Originally by: OneTimeAt BannedSpank You don't ask for dev responses by making a stupid thread, you file a petition. Even a noob like you should know better than this. Oh is that what this thread was for? I thought it was for trashing carebears =/ I'm gonna go find a new thread to **** up then. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:29:00 - [144] Originally by: Skippermonkey Hmmm, could this be the trolling i mentioned? We are all bound by the same game mechanics, therefore play the same game. What we choose to do can differ, but with the aggro rules the way they are, yes you ARE playing the game i want to play. You get your knickers in a twist when somebody takes your space pixels and get all shooty Trolling because what I say doesn't match with your world view? If you legitimately felt this was a problem you would petition it. Have you? I'm going to guess that you haven't because you know you were abusing an exploit and are afraid you'll get reprimanded for it. Do us a favor, petition it, get ANOTHER response to support your argument. A whine thread accomplishes nothing. Even your target didn't post a thread about this crap. Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: Sader Rykane Quote: If you encounter this gain I strongly encourage you not to undock and rather contact us through a petition, such as Agent Mission In Progress or Exploits, whichever is applicable to you. This permits us to limit or eliminate penalties against you and investigate this in more detail. Why would you tell him to petition it under exploits if it wasn't an exploit? I'm referring to a GM post on these forums that can be linked to. Not some cut/paste from a blog. If you're not willing to believe that whats on his blog is most likely what the the GM said, then why the hell are you posting on this topic? The OP himself links the blog as his evidence.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:29:00 - [145] Originally by: OneTimeAt BannedSpank Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
OneTimeAt BannedSpank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:30:00 - [146] It's quite clear you are in fact the one that is mad. ~ One million alts cant be wrong.
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:34:00 - [147] Well considering his last post I'de say we've reached the low point with this thread. So I'll be going now o7.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:36:00 - [148] Originally by: Skippermonkey You get your knickers in a twist when somebody takes your space pixels and get all shooty Actually, the only one with his knickers in a twist and crying about someone else getting space pixels is YOU. What is it you say? Ah yes: HTFU Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:39:00 - [149] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Skippermonkey You get your knickers in a twist when somebody takes your space pixels and get all shooty Actually, the only one with his knickers in a twist and crying about someone else getting space pixels is YOU. What is it you say? Ah yes: HTFU It's been more than 4 hours, should I call my doctor?
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.12 15:44:00 - [150] Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING

Atomik Harmonik	Posted - 2010.08.12 17:11:00 - [151] I, for one, would like to see CCP reimburse and give back Providence to CVA. The only reason CVA lost the main battle was because their fleet commander jumped the fleet out and then jumped it right back into the middle of a blob and none of their ships could target due to lag. Of course the other ships already had the grid loaded and could shoot with no return fire at all. Lag is not a game mechanic or feature. CVA pilots should have at least been given the opportunity to fight back, instead of being fish in a barrel. The whole Region should be reset and all ships replaced. After that fight, it was all downhill and now we no longer have a safe NRDS place in 0.0 to go.
FunzzeR Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2010.08.12 17:23:00 - [152] Edited by: FunzzeR on 12/08/2010 17:23:49 Originally by: Atomik Harmonik ...now we no longer have a safe NRDS place in 0.0 to go. A blessing tbh... PRAISE THE SCOTTISH FOLD!! THEIR WILL SHALL BE DONE!!
Mickey Simon TEMPLAR.	Posted - 2010.08.12 17:39:00 - [153] Originally by: FunzzeR Edited by: FunzzeR on 12/08/2010 17:23:49 Originally by: Atomik Harmonik ...now we no longer have a safe NRDS place in 0.0 to go. A blessing tbh... Only if you're a **ing ****. Providence was one of the best places to roam for a long time while CVA held control.
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.12 17:43:00 - [154] Originally by: Atomik Harmonik I, for one, would like to see CCP reimburse and give back Providence to CVA. The only reason CVA lost the main battle was because their fleet commander jumped the fleet out and then jumped it right back into the middle of a blob and none of their ships could target due to lag. Of course the other ships already had the grid loaded and could shoot with no return fire at all. Lag is not a game mechanic or feature. CVA pilots should have at least been given the opportunity to fight back, instead of being fish in a barrel. The whole Region should be reset and all ships replaced. After that fight, it was all downhill and now we no longer have a safe NRDS place in 0.0 to go. You'll need to expand your list of demands to properly intimdate the GMs. Ask for a recount, your old job back and a 6000 SUX. Wouldn't hurt to throw in 1 million ISK and the head of Alfredo Garcia.
Tortugan Internal Anarchy WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2010.08.12 17:49:00 - [155] Revising my previous ITT. ITT: Ninja looters try to convince us that a 1st-level GM copy/paste response trumps a Senior GM's personal (not copy/pasted) response. CCP's Responses to the Petition You want evidence that this is considered an exploit? There's a Senior GM telling you so. So again, I say- either show us a statement from someone higher-up than a Senior GM that this is not classified as an exploit or GTFO. Also, [/THREAD] :D
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.08.12 18:09:00 - [156] Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: Sader Rykane Quote: If you encounter this gain I strongly encourage you not to undock and rather contact us through a petition, such as Agent Mission In Progress or Exploits, whichever is applicable to you. This permits us to limit or eliminate penalties against you and investigate this in more detail. Why would you tell him to petition it under exploits if it wasn't an exploit? I'm referring to a GM post on these forums that can be linked to. Not some cut/paste from a blog. not surprising if nobody can find a link, it was several years ago and the search feature is horrible. you were around, and remember the ruling, or you weren't. simple. it was fixed, and broke in a later patch, and the bug returns, like many others have in eve history. you don't have to shoot the wreck, so just one can keep someone aggro'd for 2 hrs~ till it despawns. you can aggro someone, after they've waited out their timer, and logged. can you seriously say this is intended? don't be upset when gm's are confused or inconsistent when having to rule on something that was supposedly fixed. just keep doing it until you get warned or it's fixed again. i'd not post complaining about it tho.. ffs you're supposed to be pirates, extracting carebear tears. not dumping your own all over the forum.
Atomik Harmonik	Posted - 2010.08.12 19:35:00 - [157] Originally by: Tortugan Revising my previous ITT. ITT: Ninja looters try to convince us that a 1st-level GM copy/paste response trumps a Senior GM's personal (not copy/pasted) response. CCP's Responses to the Petition You want evidence that this is considered an exploit? There's a Senior GM telling you so. So again, I say- either show us a statement from someone higher-up than a Senior GM that this is not classified as an exploit or GTFO. Also, [/THREAD] The aggro-extension feature or exploit can be debated; but that is not the main issue. The main issue here is that Callduron supposedly received a replacement ship for something that HE could have mitigated. - He knew that there was an aggro timer running; he says so. - Even if he didn't understand what was making it reset; he still should not have undocked in his CNR - If he wanted to undock and check if it was 'real', he could have done so in a t1 frigate or shuttle...it only would have taken a few seconds to swap the ship - He even had a second chance to reconsider undocking; a warning popup while under the aggression timer...he clicked through it You can argue about if the aggro extension is an exploit or not, but the fact remains that there are plenty of other people who have lost ships due to 'actual' unexpected glitches or problems with the game (rather than their own stupidity), and have not been reimbursed. I think the guy should hold a charity selloff of the CNR and then give the money to E-Uni or give directly to noobs that are randomly chosen from the help channel.
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.12 20:59:00 - [158] Boredom: Two alts aggressed each other, prober alt and test alt. Test alt dropped a can. Both stopped at 2025. Prober alt aggressed test alt's can at 2030. Aggression timer refreshed to 15m on both immediately. Stopped aggression on can @ 2035, aggression refreshed to 15m again and began counting down. Logged test alt off at 2040, probed and warp to him. He did not disappear after 5 minutes. @2045. With 5 minutes left on aggression, I warped back to the can and aggressed it again. Timer refreshed to 15m Warped back to the test alt, still in space. @2050, test alt still in space, with 10mins left on aggression, he stopped being red for the probe alt. Locking test alt and trying to scram gave me a concord warning. Warping back to can and doing the same resulted in the same. However, the ship stayed in space. Logging test alt in, he warped back to the can, prober alt was still red until the end of the aggression timer @ 2100. What I pulled from this? Cap pilots need to abandon every can/wreck they make unless they want to take the risk of being screwed by the aggression mechanics. Also, if the CNR pilot had simply logged out for >15mins, the Tengu could not have refreshed aggression and he would have been safe. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Tira 0'TooIe	Posted - 2010.08.12 21:16:00 - [159] Please prove that anything said in the blog or in the OP is actually true. Thanks
Random Alt147782	Posted - 2010.08.12 22:58:00 - [160] This will probably get deleted but basically was told this by a senior GM: The game mechanic you are referring to is not advertised nor supported by CCP. We are currently not taking action against anyone doing this at the current time. We at CCP do reserve the right to adjust this policy at any given time in the future should the situation warrant it. Is basically it is not working as intended, but they cannot be bothered to do anything about it.

Rita Zechs	Posted - 2010.08.12 23:22:00 - [161] Originally by: Random Alt147782 This will probably get deleted but basically was told this by a senior GM: The game mechanic you are referring to is not advertised nor supported by CCP. We are currently not taking action against anyone doing this at the current time. We at CCP do reserve the right to adjust this policy at any given time in the future should the situation warrant it. Is basically it is not working as intended, but they cannot be bothered to do anything about it. CCP not fixing bugs? That's impossible! They care about quality!
RasTrent Private Nuisance	Posted - 2010.08.12 23:26:00 - [162] Edited by: RasTrent on 12/08/2010 23:27:02 when they changed the orca mechanics with out mentioning it in the patch notes and i lost a proteus.. they wouldnt give it back. its because im black. CCP IS RACIST! ------------------- Public Ragelations Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator
Misanth Reaper Industries Asset Liberation Front.	Posted - 2010.08.12 23:30:00 - [163] Originally by: Mickey Simon Providence was one of the best places to roam for a long time while CVA held control. It still is. But yes, it was quite good before. And yes, I'm biased. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Analissa Fiora	Posted - 2010.08.12 23:42:00 - [164] pirate QQ is best QQ
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.13 00:02:00 - [165] ...Am tryin ma hardest to derail this thread for fun now... Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Paul Clavet Honorless Internet Jerks	Posted - 2010.08.13 00:16:00 - [166] A Senior GM has told me that aggro extension is NOT an exploit, but that they may still reimburse ships. http://www.mylootyourtears.com/?p=824 Quote: By way of my own insignificant protest, I will not be ninja salvaging/ganking until either aggro extension is called an exploit or I receive assurances from CCP that my victims wonÆt get their mistakes reversed by CCP. IÆll still work my infiltration alts and wardecs, but I have no motivation to continue my primary profession when itÆs so likely that the work will mean nothing. ---- Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
Analissa Fiora	Posted - 2010.08.13 00:54:00 - [167] Lotsa butthurt piwats in this thread keep the tears flowing.
Hallan Turrek Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2010.08.13 01:17:00 - [168] This is ridiculous. It's an accepted mechanic, and a way of life for an entire segment of eve's population. But lets pretend it IS in the air. To say "The other guy did nothing wrong, but here's your ship back" was the mistake. It's either or. If the ninja salvager did nothing wrong, that guy doesn't deserve his CNR back. If the Ninja Salvager did something wrong, of course he deserves it back. But their ain't no gray area here. It's either/or. Again, I find CCP lacking in a basic component of good defensible policy. COMMON SENSE. ________________________________________ A merry life and a short one shall be my motto. Bartholomew Roberts Check out my blog.
Fademist	Posted - 2010.08.13 01:38:00 - [169] 6 pages of tears nice....
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.13 02:28:00 - [170] Edited by: Kiritsubo on 13/08/2010 02:33:10 Edited by: Kiritsubo on 13/08/2010 02:31:26 No bad tears or bad ***. *. *. *. *****. *** Galore's Flying Circus

Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.08.13 03:23:00 - [171] I think the abandon wreck idea is good in theory poor in practice, multiple rooms makes this impossible. A different solution would be multible timers. Ninja loots wreck, gain 15min aggro timer. Missioner opens fire, timer resets both have a 15min timer. Missioner docks, Ninja shoots wreck, Missioners timer resets. Ninja's 15 min timer expires, shooting the wrecks or Missioner invokes Concord. Ninja is still flashy red till his aggro gained from wreck destruction wears off. No more exploit and stupid mission runners still die to stupidity, everyone wins.
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.13 03:27:00 - [172] Originally by: Alara IonStorm I think the abandon wreck idea is good in theory poor in practice, multiple rooms makes this impossible. A different solution would be multible timers. Ninja loots wreck, gain 15min aggro timer. Missioner opens fire, timer resets both have a 15min timer. Missioner docks, Ninja shoots wreck, Missioners timer resets. Ninja's 15 min timer expires, shooting the wrecks or Missioner invokes Concord. Ninja is still flashy red till his aggro gained from wreck destruction wears off. No more exploit and stupid mission runners still die to stupidity, everyone wins. this made absolutely no sense at all. care to try it again? in english perhaps? Oh, as for abandon... the feature works on all cans/wrecks currently on grid. Here's an idea.... Abandon the wrecks/cans before warping to the next gate. All it takes is a right click and a left click (and maybe an ok box), voila done! .... or just don't shoot at the effin red ninja in the first place ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
guska Cryotank Gallente Void Angels Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.13 03:30:00 - [173] So the reimbursement criteria are getting softer? I've personally had a couple of 'what the?' moments with reimbursement petitions. I've had a BS refused reimbursement although it was obviously caught in a bug, had a couple of Dramiels die because of weird bugs where my ship literally couldn't move (speed display was rising etc. but no actual movement). But then I've had several ships returned to me, without asking for it, after filing a "is this intended" petition (which were honesly asking the question, as they were mechanics I hadn't encountered before), without a reimbursment petition to go along with it. These were met with "yes this is intended, but as you weren't aware of it, here's your ship back". What....the?
Belfelmalak	Posted - 2010.08.13 03:35:00 - [174] Originally by: Analissa Fiora Lotsa butthurt piwats in this thread keep the tears flowing. Lotsa Butthurt.....what an amazing name for an alt that would be
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.08.13 03:43:00 - [175] Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: Alara IonStorm I think the abandon wreck idea is good in theory poor in practice, multiple rooms makes this impossible. A different solution would be multible timers. Ninja loots wreck, gain 15min aggro timer. Missioner opens fire, timer resets both have a 15min timer. Missioner docks, Ninja shoots wreck, Missioners timer resets. Ninja's 15 min timer expires, shooting the wrecks or Missioner invokes Concord. Ninja is still flashy red till his aggro gained from wreck destruction wears off. No more exploit and stupid mission runners still die to stupidity, everyone wins. this made absolutely no sense at all. care to try it again? in english perhaps? Oh, as for abandon... the feature works on all cans/wrecks currently on grid. Here's an idea.... Abandon the wrecks/cans before warping to the next gate. All it takes is a right click and a left click (and maybe an ok box), voila done! .... or just don't shoot at the effin red ninja in the first place It's in pretty plain English buddy, all those eye rolls might of damaged your eyes. Perhaps you should consider corrective lenses or contact lenses Mr. Possum. As for abandoning wrecks, why should anyone do that. There is no reason too, except the extended aggro timer weird semi exploit thing. Just in case good sir I will explain it again in simpler terms for you. NinjaÆs shooting the wreck does not extend the timer. When his timer runs out, he should stop shooting wrecks or face Concord. If he shoot wrecks missioner can still open fire on him fifteen minutes after he shoot the last wreck, regardless if his timer has expired.
Paul Clavet Honorless Internet Jerks	Posted - 2010.08.13 03:58:00 - [176] Originally by: Alara IonStorm NinjaÆs shooting the wreck does not extend the timer. When his timer runs out, he should stop shooting wrecks or face Concord. If he shoot wrecks missioner can still open fire on him fifteen minutes after he shoot the last wreck, regardless if his timer has expired. I would be fine with this. Basically either CCP declaring it an exploit and reimbursing or CCP declaring it valid and not reimbursing are perfectly valid outcomes. What is completely unacceptable is to say "Oh, it's not an exploit, but since you didn't know about it, here's your stuff back." Anyone who has done any amount of PvP has lost ships due to ignorance of some niche game mechanic. How many ship reimbursements have you gotten? How is it that I can risk my ship to kill a carebear who shot at me, but I can't be sure that a GM won't just hand my kill back to the victim? Gankers can lose big (I lost a Tengu yesterday!) but for a carebear, claimed ignorance of mechanics will get your ship back? ---- Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
guska Cryotank Gallente Void Angels Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.13 04:17:00 - [177] Originally by: Paul Clavet I lost a Tengu yesterday! RIP JerkTengu, it shall be missed
Gneeznow Minmatar Ship spinners inc	Posted - 2010.08.13 04:29:00 - [178] Originally by: Aiwha I see somebody that waited out his 15 minute aggression timer, and still got killed. I dont call that a whiny carebear, I call that a victim of exploitation. Okay, he's a carebear, but the reimbursement was valid. Now if it had been during his normal aggression timer, then I would have no sympathy. I beleive this action to be valid, he should not have been under aggression for an hour. this pretty much sums it up, cry moar ninja's
Mitz Pufos	Posted - 2010.08.13 07:51:00 - [179] Originally by: Aiwha I see somebody that waited out his 15 minute aggression timer, and still got killed. I dont call that a whiny carebear, I call that a victim of exploitation. Okay, he's a carebear, but the reimbursement was valid. Now if it had been during his normal aggression timer, then I would have no sympathy. I beleive this action to be valid, he should not have been under aggression for an hour. QFT
Zanaraxtarus	Posted - 2010.08.13 07:53:00 - [180] Silly, non-commital CCP dude - "This certainly looks odd although we can not implicate Van Orth in anything directly. Please do not consider this resolution as anything against this character" Basically saying nothing... "this looks odd" No it doesn't.. It's pretty straightforward! I don't know... This thread is dead, but I had to reply to two things... One: The issue isn't REALLY that someone got something back.. The issue is CCPs lack of ability to commit to ANYTHING and seeming total ignorance of the word CONSISTENCY... "X is wrong right now, but ask me again in a minute and it'll be totally okay" and "we are aware of the issue, and it is working as intended" changing to "WHAT?? When did that start happening???" in a matter of weeks are things which are happening FAR too often lately.. (don't try and quote me there, I'm just relaying a general attitude, not actual quotes based on actual events) Two: STOP CALLING NINJAS PIRATES!!! They are FAR from pirates! Pirates ransom.. Pirates uphold their word.. Pirates hunt ships, NOT wrecks.. Pirates care more about isk than tears (be it isk in the form of income [ransom] or isk in the form of loss of ship [refusal to pay ransom] Done... --Zan-- Ban Mr. Richardson! [I was respectful there, I called him "Mr" and deleted the bad word] (quantity/quality studies do NOT apply to EVE. WoW, YES. EVE, NO!)

Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.13 09:57:00 - [181] Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
SupaKudoRio	Posted - 2010.08.13 12:17:00 - [182] If this is considered an exploit, why wasn't the killer warned and/or banned? If it isn't an exploit, why was the CNR reimbursed? GG GMs. GG. Since discussing this isn't allowed on the forums, lets all petition to get an answer. Ye'llo?
Captain Yifan Shadows Of The Requiem Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.08.13 12:47:00 - [183] Originally by: SupaKudoRio If this is considered an exploit, why wasn't the killer warned and/or banned? If it isn't an exploit, why was the CNR reimbursed? GG GMs. GG. Since discussing this isn't allowed on the forums, lets all petition to get an answer. because CCP wants money! If they dont reimburse the ship, then it upsets a particular group of stupid carebears who do not wish to learn about the game mechanics and uses plexes to buy rundonkoulously expensive ships that they dont have no business in flying in. Yes, such carebears are maggots of the game, but, heck, they make CCP a lot of money, so sigh
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.13 12:57:00 - [184] Originally by: SupaKudoRio If this is considered an exploit, why wasn't the killer warned and/or banned? If it isn't an exploit, why was the CNR reimbursed? In a similarly stupid line of thought, why arent all jetcan miners banned for using a cargo capacity exploit!? huh huh ...!? Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
HermanGelmet	Posted - 2010.08.13 13:37:00 - [185] Originally by: SupaKudoRio If this is considered an exploit, why wasn't the killer warned and/or banned? If it isn't an exploit, why was the CNR reimbursed? GG GMs. GG. Since discussing this isn't allowed on the forums, lets all petition to get an answer. Yes, because they want to tell 40,000 people the same thing (hopefully) individually, as opposed to making a public post. Maybe they could have the QA department do it, since they do nothing else.
SupaKudoRio	Posted - 2010.08.13 14:38:00 - [186] Edited by: SupaKudoRio on 13/08/2010 14:38:26 Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: SupaKudoRio If this is considered an exploit, why wasn't the killer warned and/or banned? If it isn't an exploit, why was the CNR reimbursed? In a similarly stupid line of thought, why arent all jetcan miners banned for using a cargo capacity exploit!? huh huh ...!? ... because it was officially stated that abusing jetcans like that is not an exploit? CCP didn't expect it, but decided to keep it because it had a decent set of pros and cons. Ye'llo?
Khalia Nestune Honorless Internet Jerks	Posted - 2010.08.13 14:44:00 - [187] I've used this mechanic a number of times, but I've never seen a reimbursement for losing a ship this way. My thoughts: 1) Shooting some guy's can to extend your ability to shoot him is actually kind of stupid. CCP should remove it. 2) Until CCP removes it, or declares it an exploit, I'll use it. 3) If I can legitimately use it, people should legitimately not get their **** back if they fall to it. 4) One GM does not a policy make. Everyone needs to chill the frak out.
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.13 15:41:00 - [188] Originally by: SupaKudoRio Edited by: SupaKudoRio on 13/08/2010 14:38:26 Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: SupaKudoRio If this is considered an exploit, why wasn't the killer warned and/or banned? If it isn't an exploit, why was the CNR reimbursed? In a similarly stupid line of thought, why arent all jetcan miners banned for using a cargo capacity exploit!? huh huh ...!? ... because it was officially stated that abusing jetcans like that is not an exploit? CCP didn't expect it, but decided to keep it because it had a decent set of pros and cons. In the spirit of this thread, I'm going to need a link to a Dev Blog stating jet can mining is not an exploit. Otherwise you're a kiddie diddler.
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.13 17:41:00 - [189] Originally by: Alara IonStorm Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: Alara IonStorm I think the abandon wreck idea is good in theory poor in practice, multiple rooms makes this impossible. A different solution would be multible timers. Ninja loots wreck, gain 15min aggro timer. Missioner opens fire, timer resets both have a 15min timer. Missioner docks, Ninja shoots wreck, Missioners timer resets. Ninja's 15 min timer expires, shooting the wrecks or Missioner invokes Concord. Ninja is still flashy red till his aggro gained from wreck destruction wears off. No more exploit and stupid mission runners still die to stupidity, everyone wins. this made absolutely no sense at all. care to try it again? in english perhaps? Oh, as for abandon... the feature works on all cans/wrecks currently on grid. Here's an idea.... Abandon the wrecks/cans before warping to the next gate. All it takes is a right click and a left click (and maybe an ok box), voila done! .... or just don't shoot at the effin red ninja in the first place It's in pretty plain English buddy, all those eye rolls might of damaged your eyes. Perhaps you should consider corrective lenses or contact lenses Mr. Possum. As for abandoning wrecks, why should anyone do that. There is no reason too, except the extended aggro timer weird semi exploit thing. Just in case good sir I will explain it again in simpler terms for you. NinjaÆs shooting the wreck does not extend the timer. When his timer runs out, he should stop shooting wrecks or face Concord. If he shoot wrecks missioner can still open fire on him fifteen minutes after he shoot the last wreck, regardless if his timer has expired. Just because you don't understand how the mechanic works, does not make it an exploit when it is used against you. There's no reason to abandon the wrecks? How about.... so people cannot extend aggression against you if you're stupid enough to shoot at them? Why on earth do you think CCP implemented the abandon feature in the first place? Ninjas shooting the wrecks DO extend the timer. I tested it yesterday, so you are wrong right off the bat. Just because you wish it weren't so, doesn't mean doing so is an exploit. Were you people born this stupid, or did you have to take special classes? ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2010.08.13 17:55:00 - [190] Edited by: Tom Peeping on 13/08/2010 17:56:11 Ugghh!!!! If this is legit... if he really got his ship back because aggro was being extended due to shooting wrecks that is incredibly frustrating CCP. The number of times I or my friends have been denied reimbursement when there were valid complaints, but the "logs" show nothing... even when 6 months later you guys report that there was a bug (such as the cloak bug... or the desycnch due to high speed bumping bug) so we re-petition the loss, and still get denied because you had apparently don't keep any information in logs. Then this dude petitions on a well known mechanic, which has formally been deemed by prior senior GM's not to be an exploit, and actually gets reimbursed? Seriously CCP... you remember a thread just a little bit ago where you were wondering why your player base feels an apparent disconnect with your support services? just a little hint that consistency on stuff like this would go a long way towards a sense of "connect". It's precisely because the support setup you've got in place seems totally random at times, that we just toss up our hands and go DUH! Edit: I see some of you guys talking as if shooting wrecks is an exploit... please go eve search prior threads... you'll find some links where senior GM's did finally officially state that this is not an exploit but a valid mechanic. Seems like some GM's are as unknowledgeable about past GM findings as some of the player base.

Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.08.13 18:38:00 - [191] Originally by: Awesome Possum Just because you don't understand how the mechanic works, does not make it an exploit when it is used against you. There's no reason to abandon the wrecks? How about.... so people cannot extend aggression against you if you're stupid enough to shoot at them? Why on earth do you think CCP implemented the abandon feature in the first place? Ninjas shooting the wrecks DO extend the timer. I tested it yesterday, so you are wrong right off the bat. Just because you wish it weren't so, doesn't mean doing so is an exploit. Were you people born this stupid, or did you have to take special classes? How bout so people can't extend aggression huh. well I always thought it was so you could give your loot away. Then again I could be wrong it is not like a GM is just gonna give you your ship back because... oh wait. I do know that shooting wrecks extends the aggro timer. I also know a GM ruled it an exploit in a very weird way. So I suggest an idea and you go all rawr rawr!!! Your not an Awsome Possum at all your just an Angry Possum. Were you born this angry or did you need to take a special class
Ashina Sito Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.08.13 18:41:00 - [192] Originally by: Tom Peeping please go eve search prior threads... you'll find some links where senior GM's did finally officially state that this is not an exploit but a valid mechanic. Seems like some GM's are as unknowledgeable about past GM findings as some of the player base. Your wrong.
Awesome Possum Gallente Isk Relocation Services	Posted - 2010.08.13 19:08:00 - [193] Originally by: Alara IonStorm well I always thought it was so you could give your loot away. So before the abandon feature was implemented, there was no way for a mission runner to give his loot away? Quote: Then again I could be wrong it is not like a GM is just gonna give you your ship back because... oh wait. You could be, and you are. GMs do stupid things all the time. Would you like a screenshot of the one that told me I can choose NOT to have a Concord warning come up? How about the GM that said to use target painters against super carriers? (for those who don't know... target painters are forms of electronic warfare. take a guess at what ship class is immune to ewar?) Quote: I do know that shooting wrecks extends the aggro timer. I also know a GM ruled it an exploit in a very weird way. So I suggest an idea and you go all rawr rawr!!! Your not an Awsome Possum at all your just an Angry Possum. still waiting on a link to a quote by a gm on this forum, not some cut/paste from a blog. Quote: Were you born this angry or did you need to take a special class my parents raised me to rage against ignorance and stupidity, stop making me angry. ♥ Wreck Disposal Services
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.13 19:14:00 - [194] Originally by: Alara IonStorm Were you born this angry or did you need to take a special class Rabies; carebears are known carriers.
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2010.08.13 19:16:00 - [195] Originally by: Ashina Sito Originally by: Tom Peeping please go eve search prior threads... you'll find some links where senior GM's did finally officially state that this is not an exploit but a valid mechanic. Seems like some GM's are as unknowledgeable about past GM findings as some of the player base. Your wrong. \ Go look again... in particular go hunt for the thread where a dude was protesting having lost a ship while he was offline, the reason aggro was maintained was because the guys had been killing wrecks to keep it up. The dude did actually get his ship back in that thread... BUT the important bit was the GM post made towards the end. Go find that before posting more of the usual rumor mill crap.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.08.13 21:12:00 - [196] We got off on the wrong foot Mr. Possum. Lets stop fighting and be super special forum friends, then we can both be happy all the time. I will start by saying something nice about you... umm... you have a cool name.
Misanth Reaper Industries Asset Liberation Front.	Posted - 2010.08.13 22:52:00 - [197] Originally by: Ashina Sito Originally by: Tom Peeping please go eve search prior threads... you'll find some links where senior GM's did finally officially state that this is not an exploit but a valid mechanic. Seems like some GM's are as unknowledgeable about past GM findings as some of the player base. Your wrong. You're - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Zacktar Gallente Voodoo Tactical	Posted - 2010.08.13 23:08:00 - [198] Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: Alara IonStorm Originally by: Awesome Possum Originally by: Alara IonStorm I think the abandon wreck idea is good in theory poor in practice, multiple rooms makes this impossible. A different solution would be multible timers. Ninja loots wreck, gain 15min aggro timer. Missioner opens fire, timer resets both have a 15min timer. Missioner docks, Ninja shoots wreck, Missioners timer resets. Ninja's 15 min timer expires, shooting the wrecks or Missioner invokes Concord. Ninja is still flashy red till his aggro gained from wreck destruction wears off. No more exploit and stupid mission runners still die to stupidity, everyone wins. this made absolutely no sense at all. care to try it again? in english perhaps? Oh, as for abandon... the feature works on all cans/wrecks currently on grid. Here's an idea.... Abandon the wrecks/cans before warping to the next gate. All it takes is a right click and a left click (and maybe an ok box), voila done! .... or just don't shoot at the effin red ninja in the first place It's in pretty plain English buddy, all those eye rolls might of damaged your eyes. Perhaps you should consider corrective lenses or contact lenses Mr. Possum. As for abandoning wrecks, why should anyone do that. There is no reason too, except the extended aggro timer weird semi exploit thing. Just in case good sir I will explain it again in simpler terms for you. NinjaÆs shooting the wreck does not extend the timer. When his timer runs out, he should stop shooting wrecks or face Concord. If he shoot wrecks missioner can still open fire on him fifteen minutes after he shoot the last wreck, regardless if his timer has expired. Just because you don't understand how the mechanic works, does not make it an exploit when it is used against you. There's no reason to abandon the wrecks? How about.... so people cannot extend aggression against you if you're stupid enough to shoot at them? Why on earth do you think CCP implemented the abandon feature in the first place? Ninjas shooting the wrecks DO extend the timer. I tested it yesterday, so you are wrong right off the bat. Just because you wish it weren't so, doesn't mean doing so is an exploit. Were you people born this stupid, or did you have to take special classes? I think they worked at it their whole life o7
Lady Deja	Posted - 2010.08.13 23:12:00 - [199] The CNR pilot has a valid point in the fact that when the ninja extends the aggro timer the original pew pew timer should not be extended in any way other than direct fighting between both parties. /seriousness HTFU and quit whining, honestly if you don't like the way CCP does things then ACTUALLY PRESS THE UN SUB BUTTON. That is all. Things don't appear as to what they really are.
Krecian Gallente Essence of Decay Black Cartel.	Posted - 2010.08.13 23:57:00 - [200] I agree that shooting somebody elses wrecks to keep the agression going is a silly mechanic, but it's been around forever. As many have pointed out, CCP has fixed mechanics surrounding it to not only better-inform the players involved, but to allow them to outright avoid it completely. I think the GM's must of been outsourced and made a mistake. I can accept this. But I am still disappointed - I'm paying for a service in which customer service is a part of said service. This GM decision is inconsistant of what I've come to expect. Inconsistant service is not something I'm enthusiastic about supporting. --------- "The first rock thrown again, welcome to hell little saint. Mother Gia in slaughter, welcome to paradise soldier." -Nightwish, Planet Hell

Misanth Reaper Industries Asset Liberation Front.	Posted - 2010.08.14 12:56:00 - [201] Edited by: Misanth on 14/08/2010 12:56:48 CBA to dig up the old threads, but there was craploads of arguments on this shooting-wrecks-to-keep-aggression some years ago. Ratters in my area started to blow up their wrecks before leaving belts, and eventually some GM posted that it was a 'bannable offense'. (to keep someones aggression running by shooting their wrecks/cans) Have to admit I havn't paid much attention to changes in policies but.. when did CCP state otherwise? or is someone else not as lazy as me and feel like digging up those old things.. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.08.14 15:21:00 - [202] found this on google, seems some ninja's have extending aggro down to a science. http://podlogs.com/ninjahijinx/2010/08/03/tutorial-trio-the-mystical-art-of-aggro-extension/ my favorite part: "You can extend even longer if there are rats in the same or next pockets, by killing one, which will in result, also create a wreck etc" blue that.. please go on and abuse this 'broken mechanic' or whatever you'd call it. a full petition queue is the only proven way to get ccp to fix anything. thanks for making eve a better place for all of us.
Muad' Dib Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.14 15:31:00 - [203] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 14/08/2010 15:33:31 Originally by: Skippermonkey Edited by: Skippermonkey on 11/08/2010 14:40:09 tl:dr MR loses CNR to a ninja while knowingly undocking with aggro still active, petitions loss, recieves a free CNR. ------- read these two blogs in order then tell me that CCP knows what they are doing. http://stabbedup.blogspot.com/2010/08/eve-stupid-stupid-stupid.html http://stabbedup.blogspot.com/2010/08/eve-exchange-of-views-with-ccp.html Official CCP response would be good; explaining the rationale behind rewarding the stupid Linky for original blog post regarding aforementioned stupid One of the GM replies refers to extending the agression timer by reagressing the cans, that was deemed an exploit before CCP introduced give away ownership of your wrecks/cans. If anything, your dude was exploiting and using a bug to his defense -doesn't make the mission runner any less of a whiny *****. --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market !
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.14 15:59:00 - [204] Originally by: Tutorial Trio Most people think that once the MR shoot, you only have the 15 minutes given by the timer to tackle him, and take him out, this is incorrect. Instead, depending on the situation, you can keep on æextendingÆ the aggro for anywhere between 2 and 23 hours (because of downtime). This of course lures the MR into a false sense of security, making him undock while youÆre still aggroÆd. I'd like to thank the ninja who wrote this for bringing it to light. A 15 minute aggro timer can be extended to 23 hours by someone else other than the aggroer . If anything I hope this thread of ninja tears presses CCP to finally fix this nonsense in favor of the MR. That'll teach you ninjas to stop crying so much... Or not :P. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Captain Yifan Shadows Of The Requiem Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.08.14 16:08:00 - [205] Edited by: Captain Yifan on 14/08/2010 16:11:57 Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Tutorial Trio Most people think that once the MR shoot, you only have the 15 minutes given by the timer to tackle him, and take him out, this is incorrect. Instead, depending on the situation, you can keep on æextendingÆ the aggro for anywhere between 2 and 23 hours (because of downtime). This of course lures the MR into a false sense of security, making him undock while youÆre still aggroÆd. I'd like to thank the ninja who wrote this for bringing it to light. A 15 minute aggro timer can be extended to 23 hours by someone else other than the aggroer . If anything I hope this thread of ninja tears presses CCP to finally fix this nonsense in favor of the MR. That'll teach you ninjas to stop crying so much... Or not :P. I'm sorry to burst your (and the stupid ninja's) bubble but by logging off for 15 minutes, the MR can simply ensure that the aggro timer cannot be reset by shooting the wreck. While I agree that the tactic of extending aggro via shooting wrecks is somewhat lame, it is legal as long as no one with a "CCP" before his name came out and say it is not. Saying "yea but CCP will fix it in the future" is simply a fallacy of wishful thinking. Yea but eve is going to die somepoint in the future, so why dont we all quit the game now?
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.14 17:07:00 - [206] i'll test it out to see if indeed logging off puts an end to aggro-extension by ninjas. And if this turns out the be the case (that you are right), then perhaps CCP may want to put out a public service announcement that waiting out a timer docked isn't good enough and that the pilot will need to log out for 15 minutes. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.08.14 18:07:00 - [207] Originally by: Captain Yifan I'm sorry to burst your (and the stupid ninja's) bubble but by logging off for 15 minutes, the MR can simply ensure that the aggro timer cannot be reset by shooting the wreck. this is a game-wide mechanic. not everybody lives in empire, with a visible timer. not every system has a station that you have docking rights at. lose your ship, and spend the next 4 hrs warping your pod around evading probes? you can't log safely after waiting 15 minutes, and that is not how aggro mechanics are intended. i don't care about some MR who undocks with a timer, or ninjas diddling wrecks to keep that timer running. i am a little mad at ccp letting bugs back into game because their crappy hot patches aren't compatible with a later version of eve.
Thorradin State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.08.14 19:15:00 - [208] Originally by: Tom Peeping Originally by: Ashina Sito Originally by: Tom Peeping please go eve search prior threads... you'll find some links where senior GM's did finally officially state that this is not an exploit but a valid mechanic. Seems like some GM's are as unknowledgeable about past GM findings as some of the player base. Your wrong. \ Go look again... in particular go hunt for the thread where a dude was protesting having lost a ship while he was offline, the reason aggro was maintained was because the guys had been killing wrecks to keep it up. The dude did actually get his ship back in that thread... BUT the important bit was the GM post made towards the end. Go find that before posting more of the usual rumor mill crap. Since you seem to know where to look, why don't you link the thread? Saying "It's there but I won't prove it" doesn't add any weight to your claim. Until then... There's proof the sun is made of candy, I read about it but you just have to go look for the info yourself.
Bask Ilisk	Posted - 2010.08.14 21:42:00 - [209] Even if you abandon wrecks, they still extend aggro timer since they belong to you.
Jack Norris Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.	Posted - 2010.08.14 22:09:00 - [210]

Ghaylenty	Posted - 2010.08.14 22:41:00 - [211] situations like this in the past have always marked the beginning of a one way trip downhill for games. it sets the playerbase up to emotionally disconnect from the game, which is what currently holds all of the unhappy peoples interest. i actually fly amarr
Slimy Worm Cyan Wolf	Posted - 2010.08.15 04:18:00 - [212] Edited by: Slimy Worm on 15/08/2010 04:20:10 Originally by: Jack Dant To be completely fair to the GMs, the reason why he got reinbursed was that his original aggro timer was extended for an hour, presumably by shooting wrecks. I guess this is the first step towards extending aggro being declared an exploit. Wreck shooting can only extend aggro for an additional 15 minutes and only during the initial 15 minutes. Since aggro kept flipping between 7 and 9 minutes after the original 15 minutes had expired, then the ninja did something else to extend aggro or else it was a bug. Normally, when aggro is extended by shooting wrecks, it resets to 15 minutes and in this case it kept resetting to 9 minutes. The GM probably checked the logs and confirmed that the missionbear was attacked more than thirty minutes after the initial aggro began. CCP has not reimbursed someone for losing a ship due to wrecks being shot as the OP claims.
Slimy Worm Cyan Wolf	Posted - 2010.08.15 08:43:00 - [213] double-post
OneTimeAt BannedSpank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.08.15 11:07:00 - [214] Originally by: Slimy Worm EDIT: If I'm wrong and it's possible to extend aggro beyond one additional set of 15 minutes then forget everything I just typed. OK ~ One million alts cant be wrong.
AterraX Caldari	Posted - 2010.08.15 11:17:00 - [215] Originally by: Marlona Sky Suddenly Ninja tears, best tears. I love it when care bears grief you guys. This ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character...
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.15 12:51:00 - [216] Originally by: Slimy Worm EDIT: If I'm wrong and it's possible to extend aggro beyond one additional set of 15 minutes then forget everything I just typed. Read this: How to extend the 15-minute aggro on someone It explains how to extend it up to 23 hours. And this thread needs more ninja tears. C'mon, ninjas. Cry some moar so CCP can finally patch this nonsense . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2010.08.15 14:11:00 - [217] I wonder if ratting RA nyx which had his aggression extended for over 5 hours and then popped by NC will get reimbursed since it is exactly the same as this.
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.08.15 15:06:00 - [218] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1213121&page=2 CCP Gangleri Minmatar Posted - 2009.11.13 18:10:00 - [49] "We are aware of the issue of players extending the aggression between pilots by interacting with their wreck, this is being fixed." 2 weeks later dominion is released, and abandon feature is added. this may have been ccp's 'fix', but i confirmed what another poster already said in this thread: abandoning does not stop the aggro extension. i spent nearly an hour shooting/webbing/ecm'ing and remote eccm'ing a blued can, each time extending the aggro timer. note the non-aggressive module has same effect. seem to me, clearly not an intended mechanic, abandoning does nothing, definately petitionable if you lose your ship to this exploit. thanks again to the op for bringing this to our, and hopefully ccp's, attention. carebear hugs for you !!
Dark 0verlord Therapy. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.15 15:36:00 - [219] Hmm well the kill is still on the kb so who cares if he got the ship back. Ninja tears truly are the sweetest.
Paul Clavet Honorless Internet Jerks	Posted - 2010.08.15 17:35:00 - [220] Originally by: K'racker seem to me, clearly not an intended mechanic, abandoning does nothing, definately petitionable if you lose your ship to this exploit. thanks again to the op for bringing this to our, and hopefully ccp's, attention. carebear hugs for you !! Reading comprehension. You no haz it. The problem here is not the mechanic. The problem is that some (Senior!) GMs are calling it an "exploit", some are calling it "unintended functionality", and some are calling it simply "an unclear mechanic". If it is an exploit, SAY that it's an exploit, and we'll all move on! If it's NOT an exploit, then assure us that nobody else will get reimbursements for mechanics that are fine. Most mission crashers, including myself, don't care one way or another how CCP rules on this, but it MUST be resolved. Having reimbursements to someone who ignored aggro undock warnings for something that GMs are currently NOT saying is an exploit is unacceptable. As others have said, it raises doubts about in what other circumstances CCP will reward losses from ignorance with replacement ships. ---- Blog: My Loot, Your Tears

MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.15 19:14:00 - [221] Originally by: Paul Clavet The problem here is not the mechanic. The problem is that some (Senior!) GMs are calling it an "exploit", some are calling it "unintended functionality", and some are calling it simply "an unclear mechanic". If it is an exploit, SAY that it's an exploit, and we'll all move on! If it's NOT an exploit, then assure us that nobody else will get reimbursements for mechanics that are fine. I'll clear things up a bit for you. At the moment, and from what I have read, devs are not happy with the way this "mechanic" (aggro extension) is being used. It is on their to-do list and it will be resolved. In the mean time they are handling it on a case-by-case basis. We would all like to see a quick resolution to this issue. However and in the mean time, we'll just have to have some patience. We'll have to accept that ships will be reimbursed and all that "hard work" that ninjas put in killin' that PVE ship with their PVP ship may be in vein. Quote: Most mission crashers, including myself, don't care one way or another how CCP rules on this, but it MUST be resolved. Having reimbursements to someone who ignored aggro undock warnings for something that GMs are currently NOT saying is an exploit is unacceptable. As others have said, it raises doubts about in what other circumstances CCP will reward losses from ignorance with replacement ships. Paul Clavet, The pilot in question did not ignore the aggro undock warning. Read his blog. He WAITED OVER 15 MINUTES to undock. The aggro timer is supposed to be that long, assuming the pilot does not continue to aggro. I can see your dilemma, as you prey on pilots who experience the confusion of waiting out the 15 minute timer only to have someone else continue having it extended almost indefinitely to whatever time such person chooses to. Have patience. This will be fixed. In the mean time you may continue to cry over you not being able to make others cry. Hopefully it will speed things up a bit. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Guido Innocenti	Posted - 2010.08.15 23:17:00 - [222] Oh wow, this is golden, highsec griefer cries a river over a reimbursed cnr :D These are clearly the best tears seen ever on the forums. Send me all isk and assets while you emorage quit please. Go play hello kitty world or something if you can't handle eve ;) I'm sure they'll make sure no one can make you butthurt again ;) Dude get over it, it's only a game, and for crying out loud, stop crying over it :D
OneTimeAt BannedSpank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.08.16 00:24:00 - [223] Eve is too hard. ~ One million alts cant be wrong.
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.16 02:27:00 - [224] Originally by: Paul Clavet The problem here is not the mechanic. The problem is that some (Senior!) GMs are calling it an "exploit", some are calling it "unintended functionality", and some are calling it simply "an unclear mechanic". If it is an exploit, SAY that it's an exploit, and we'll all move on! If it's NOT an exploit, then assure us that nobody else will get reimbursements for mechanics that are fine. Most mission crashers, including myself, don't care one way or another how CCP rules on this, but it MUST be resolved. Having reimbursements to someone who ignored aggro undock warnings for something that GMs are currently NOT saying is an exploit is unacceptable. As others have said, it raises doubts about in what other circumstances CCP will reward losses from ignorance with replacement ships. Exactly this. We need CCP to show a "united front", as it were, on the question of whether this is an exploit or not - because right now, the answer seems to depend on which GM you ask, and that's not cool. We use this mechanic of aggro extension often (confirming, though, that no member of Suddenly Ninjas would sit there and extend aggro for over an hour when there's plenty of bears to bait out there). So if it's going to be officially declared an exploit, we need to know it immediately so we don't individually get banned out of the blue one day for "consistently using exploits".
guska Cryotank Gallente Void Angels Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.08.16 03:28:00 - [225] I can't seem to find it, but I thought there was a change to the extending aggro mechanics, that only allowed the aggro to be extended for 1 or 2 more 'cycles' (ie, up to 30 or 45min). To be truly safe, all the MR has to do is sit and wait for 2+ hours for the ninja to get bored, or all his wrecks/cans to de-spawn. Of course, if the ninja has a salvager handy (more than likely) then the MR could be waiting 4 hours, as AFAIK the 2 hour timer is reset when a wreck is salvaged and becomes a can. Why am I writing 'tips' for mission runners? God knows, but I'm pretty sure that any MRs that read this will have been reading C+P anyway and know that when you shoot a ninja, bad things happen. Originally by: One of many spanks I don't speak Chinese but if my picnic cutlery snapped I wouldn't expect the manufacturers to offer English support when my birthday party is RUINED.
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.08.16 12:48:00 - [226] Originally by: Paul Clavet Originally by: K'racker seem to me, clearly not an intended mechanic, abandoning does nothing, definately petitionable if you lose your ship to this exploit. thanks again to the op for bringing this to our, and hopefully ccp's, attention. carebear hugs for you !! Reading comprehension. You no haz it. The problem here is not the mechanic. The problem is that some (Senior!) GMs are calling it an "exploit", some are calling it "unintended functionality", and some are calling it simply "an unclear mechanic". If it is an exploit, SAY that it's an exploit, and we'll all move on! If it's NOT an exploit, then assure us that nobody else will get reimbursements for mechanics that are fine. Most mission crashers, including myself, don't care one way or another how CCP rules on this, but it MUST be resolved. Having reimbursements to someone who ignored aggro undock warnings for something that GMs are currently NOT saying is an exploit is unacceptable. As others have said, it raises doubts about in what other circumstances CCP will reward losses from ignorance with replacement ships. there's only one gm post linked in this thread, you can haz read it again. it was scheduled to be fixed. that means it's broken. nowhere is a gm quoted saying it's "unintended functionality", "unclear mechanic", or an "exploit". i bolded my quote, you can clearly see i'm giving an opinion when i call it an exploit. you can haz read it again, and stop making stuff up. those posters who have 0.0 history, and in-game time enough to recall this being labelled an exploit, have stated so. there, such a mechanic can't simply be waited out. and there's a lot more isk at stake, when applied to undockable supercaps.
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.16 13:03:00 - [227] Originally by: K'racker those posters who have 0.0 history, and in-game time enough to recall this being labelled an exploit, have stated so. there, such a mechanic can't simply be waited out. and there's a lot more isk at stake, when applied to undockable supercaps. So you can't point to specific evidence and we should take your word for it cause you are older? ...Mom? Is that you? Why did you leave us? The Dev response you linked was in regards to ships not despawning after logoffski. It is not relevant to the topic at hand.
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.08.16 13:15:00 - [228] Originally by: Kiritsubo Originally by: K'racker those posters who have 0.0 history, and in-game time enough to recall this being labelled an exploit, have stated so. there, such a mechanic can't simply be waited out. and there's a lot more isk at stake, when applied to undockable supercaps. So you can't point to specific evidence and we should take your word for it cause you are older? ...Mom? Is that you? Why did you leave us? The Dev response you linked was in regards to ships not despawning after logoffski. It is not relevant to the topic at hand. don't think you read the correct link. Originally by: K'racker http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1213121&page=2 CCP Gangleri Minmatar Posted - 2009.11.13 18:10:00 - [49] "We are aware of the issue of players extending the aggression between pilots by interacting with their wreck, this is being fixed." bolded the relevant part for you.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.16 16:11:00 - [229] Originally by: K'racker Originally by: CCP Gangleri Posted - 2009.11.13 18:10:00 "We are aware of the issue of players extending the aggression between pilots by interacting with their wreck, this is being fixed." bolded the relevant part for you. Oh no no no, i bolded, enlarged and made purple the relevant part FOR YOU If it was important enough 'to be fixed' it would have happened already. Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Plainace	Posted - 2010.08.16 16:34:00 - [230] I love purple

Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.08.16 16:59:00 - [231] Originally by: Skippermonkey Originally by: K'racker Originally by: CCP Gangleri Posted - 2009.11.13 18:10:00 "We are aware of the issue of players extending the aggression between pilots by interacting with their wreck, this is being fixed." bolded the relevant part for you. Oh no no no, i bolded, enlarged and made purple the relevant part FOR YOU If it was important enough 'to be fixed' it would have happened already. It hasn't been 18 months yet.
Misanth Reaper Industries Asset Liberation Front.	Posted - 2010.08.16 17:09:00 - [232] Originally by: Plainace I love purple Me too. Even better Deep. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Paul Clavet Honorless Internet Jerks	Posted - 2010.08.16 17:55:00 - [233] A GM told me "Current available information indicates that this is not as it should be, until we have more information we will not be announcing anything nor taking action against those making use of this." Which is close to calling it a bug as I think CCP is going to get. http://www.mylootyourtears.com/?p=852 My confidence in CCP's customer service has never been lower, but I guess we have our answer. ---- Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.16 18:44:00 - [234] Originally by: Paul Clavet A GM told me "Current available information indicates that this is not as it should be, until we have more information we will not be announcing anything nor taking action against those making use of this." Which is close to calling it a bug as I think CCP is going to get. http://www.mylootyourtears.com/?p=852 My confidence in CCP's customer service has never been lower, but I guess we have our answer. Ok. I read that blog of yours. As much as I enjoy watching "tear collectors" choke on their own tears I have to tell you, you need to relax and take a breather, man. It's going to be OK. They're going to fix this. In the mean time, they're not taking action against those using this "technique". If they reimburse victims of this technique then let it just be. Just because you're not pssing people off as much as you'd like to doesn't mean it's the end of the world. I'm sure you can find other ways to grief. It'll be OK, man. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Scoundrelus The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.08.16 19:08:00 - [235] I really can't stand people like the OP. If every single person I kill petitions and gets their ship back I couldn't care less, I have the modules I killed for and that's all I need. In my opinion people who complain about others getting their ship back are just haters. Go drink some Haterade and get back to your pseudo-pvp.
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.08.16 20:55:00 - [236] Originally by: Scoundrelus I really can't stand people like the OP. If every single person I kill petitions and gets their ship back I couldn't care less, I have the modules I killed for and that's all I need. In my opinion people who complain about others getting their ship back are just haters. Go drink some Haterade and get back to your pseudo-pvp. Wait, you kill people so you can have their modules? That's not normal. People normally kill so the people they kill can't have their modules. If the person gets their modules back there's no point.
Scoundrelus The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2010.08.16 21:24:00 - [237] Originally by: omgfreemoniez Originally by: Scoundrelus I really can't stand people like the OP. If every single person I kill petitions and gets their ship back I couldn't care less, I have the modules I killed for and that's all I need. In my opinion people who complain about others getting their ship back are just haters. Go drink some Haterade and get back to your pseudo-pvp. Wait, you kill people so you can have their modules? That's not normal. People normally kill so the people they kill can't have their modules. If the person gets their modules back there's no point. If this is sarcasm then I'm not really seeing your point. If not then you have some messed up views. Pirates make their money off modules/ransoms and frankly dwelling on what did or did not happens to your victims after you gank them is just plain pointless.
Barakkus Caelestis Iudicium	Posted - 2010.08.16 21:47:00 - [238] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 The pilot in question did not ignore the aggro undock warning. Read his blog. He WAITED OVER 15 MINUTES to undock. The aggro timer is supposed to be that long, assuming the pilot does not continue to aggro. Unless the warning is broken, he ignored the aggro warning. Originally by: CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
Itoli Erebus	Posted - 2010.09.11 05:53:00 - [239] I don't know what is more discouraging: the GM blasting through the established rules of the game and voiding risk vs. reward, or the horde of morons cheering at this blatant game-compromising move.
Xia Kairui	Posted - 2010.09.11 07:56:00 - [240] Originally by: Itoli Erebus I don't know what is more discouraging: the GM blasting through the established rules of the game and voiding risk vs. reward, or the horde of morons cheering at this blatant game-compromising move. What is compromising the game here? This could be a win-win situation. The ninja got a CNR kill mail, the CNR drops and 150M. The mission runner got his ship back and was satisfied with that situation. Everyone should be happy. Instead a lot of people whine because this incident did not frak up someone's game experience and want someone to suffer for no reason at all except for their personal enjoyment. Isn't THAT the definition of griefing? Sheesh. IMO that's the main problem with EVE: that some people cannot stand the idea of someone else enjoying themselves.

Misanth Reaper Industries Asset Liberation Front.	Posted - 2010.09.11 09:30:00 - [241] Originally by: Itoli Erebus I don't know what is more discouraging: the GM blasting through the established rules of the game and voiding risk vs. reward, or the horde of morons cheering at this blatant game-compromising move. ..or the guy that thought it was cool to necro that thread. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Itoli Erebus	Posted - 2010.09.11 09:37:00 - [242] Originally by: Xia Kairui Originally by: Itoli Erebus I don't know what is more discouraging: the GM blasting through the established rules of the game and voiding risk vs. reward, or the horde of morons cheering at this blatant game-compromising move. What is compromising the game here? This could be a win-win situation. The ninja got a CNR kill mail, the CNR drops and 150M. The mission runner got his ship back and was satisfied with that situation. Everyone should be happy. Instead a lot of people whine because this incident did not frak up someone's game experience and want someone to suffer for no reason at all except for their personal enjoyment. Isn't THAT the definition of griefing? Sheesh. IMO that's the main problem with EVE: that some people cannot stand the idea of someone else enjoying themselves. There aren't any griefers in this situation, only two players playing by the currently established rules of the game. You need to get that word griefer out of your empty head, because it seems to be all you think about. EvE online has pirates in it, and it has a rule set to govern the relations between pirates and capsuleers. When you talk about griefers, it shows me that you know nothing about this game. You should review what EvE online IS as a game, and not what you think it is. Some claim that people say certain official people have said this is an exploit in the past. None of that matters, whether or not any of it is true or how much truth there is to it, because these are not the rules governing the game during these events. In the past the pirate player had an unfair advantage as the opposing player could not see the renewal of the aggression timer when wrecks were shot. This has since been fixed. The loser in this scenario blogged that he watched the timer raise and he was aware of it. Neither player had an unfair advantage in this exchange, thus the rules are ideal. Both players were aware the timers were being extended, no unfair advantage was gleaned by either player (until GM intervention). The CNR pilot could have undocked in a pod and warped into the vast universe if he so chose. I don't understand how you can't see that rules being ignored and consequences being eliminated is not compromising a game. As an aside, only one player out of two who put their ships and time on the line received reimbursement. None should receive any reimbursement, however this shows that we really do not know how much this happens. It is appreciated that this issue was brought to attention.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.11 16:42:00 - [243] Originally by: Itoli Erebus BOOHOO NO FAIR Still with the tears? Please keep crying about this. That way CCP can finally close that loop hole on extending someone's aggro without that someone even so much as undocking. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!

CCP Jericho	Posted - 2010.09.12 03:35:00 - [244] Inappropriate post removed.

Statutory Ape	Posted - 2010.11.04 22:22:00 - [245] I dont think ive ever heard this much whine about mechanics from carebears. Crying tears about someone slightly lessening your hard earned grief is hilarious. crying about loosing some internet pixels is one thing.. but crying coz someone else got a free internet pixels.. thats awesome <3 This Cheasy mechanic should be fixed (again) asap, but not yet.. this is too good.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.11.04 23:56:00 - [246] Originally by: Statutory Ape I dont think ive ever heard this much whine about mechanics from carebears. Crying tears about someone slightly lessening your hard earned grief is hilarious. crying about loosing some internet pixels is one thing.. but crying coz someone else got a free internet pixels.. thats awesome <3 This Cheasy mechanic should be fixed (again) asap, but not yet.. this is too good. Ans this was so worth necroing a thread that died two months ago.
Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.05 01:18:00 - [247] Originally by: Itoli Erebus I don't know what is more discouraging: the GM blasting through the established rules of the game and voiding risk vs. reward, or the horde of morons cheering at this blatant game-compromising move. It lives! Repeating my 2 cents. Shooting wrecks has been verified as an exploit, but CCP's not fixing it. They've said that doing it is an exploit. It's simple enough to understand. ---- Gullible
Nyhlus Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.11.05 02:02:00 - [248] Was he in IT? All they've gotta do is pick up the batphone and CCP drops everything to help them out.
Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.05 02:29:00 - [249] Originally by: Nyhlus Was he in IT? All they've gotta do is pick up the batphone and CCP drops everything to help them out. Oh, go back to COAD. ---- Gullible
Winston Shaftmore	Posted - 2010.11.05 02:41:00 - [250] Edited by: Winston Shaftmore on 05/11/2010 02:44:08 I actually have logs of a similar incident in which the GMs say it IS NOT an exploit. So it is basically GMs deciding policy randomly and not in any standard fashion. WTB Moar Zombies. Wanted to mention that the logs also contain reference to this thread and CCP's previous reaction. GM no likey that.

Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.11.05 12:44:00 - [251] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 05/11/2010 12:53:15 Originally by: Statutory Ape I dont think ive ever heard this much whine about mechanics from carebears. Crying tears about someone slightly lessening your hard earned grief is hilarious. crying about loosing some internet pixels is one thing.. but crying coz someone else got a free internet pixels.. thats awesome <3 This Cheasy mechanic should be fixed (again) asap, but not yet.. this is too good. Originally by: CCP Capslock OH GOD THE TESTING
Ynot Eyob Minmatar Nisroc Angels The Obsidian Front	Posted - 2010.11.05 12:44:00 - [252] Originally by: Skippermonkey Edited by: Skippermonkey on 11/08/2010 14:40:09 tl:dr MR loses CNR to a ninja while knowingly undocking with aggro still active, petitions loss, recieves a free CNR. ------- read these two blogs in order then tell me that CCP knows what they are doing. http://stabbedup.blogspot.com/2010/08/eve-stupid-stupid-stupid.html http://stabbedup.blogspot.com/2010/08/eve-exchange-of-views-with-ccp.html Official CCP response would be good; explaining the rationale behind rewarding the stupid Linky for original blog post regarding aforementioned stupid I didnt read every post in here, but it quite simple, he just need to warp scram one of your wrecks and keep the scammer on. That will reset the timer. Only way you can prevent this is to lock out of game for 15 min.
Kiritsubo Ritual Suicide	Posted - 2010.11.05 12:47:00 - [253]
Lady Parity Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.11.05 12:56:00 - [254] I want all my ships lost to lag returned to me as lag is an exploit :RAGE!:
Helmh0ltz	Posted - 2010.11.06 17:14:00 - [255] Originally by: Statutory Ape I dont think ive ever heard this much whine about mechanics from carebears. Crying tears about someone slightly lessening your hard earned grief is hilarious. crying about loosing some internet pixels is one thing.. but crying coz someone else got a free internet pixels.. thats awesome <3 This Cheasy mechanic should be fixed (again) asap, but not yet.. this is too good. ====== Your signature is freakishly huge for this forum. Please resize according to the forum rules, thanks. Shadow.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2010.11.06 17:22:00 - [256] Originally by: Misanth Originally by: Itoli Erebus I don't know what is more discouraging: the GM blasting through the established rules of the game and voiding risk vs. reward, or the horde of morons cheering at this blatant game-compromising move. ..or the guy that thought it was cool to necro that thread. Hey, I get to quote myself while being (almost) on topic! Sweet. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2010.11.06 17:45:00 - [257] Originally by: K'Mahk Edited by: K''Mahk on 11/08/2010 11:42:24 Hmm..... Ninja tears...... how strange... C'mon guys, you use mechanics and assume that everything you use is 'working as intended' Some things are 'as intended' such as the looting = aggression timers, however reseting the aggression timer (Remember that you started it, he escalated it with his act of aggression towards you) should be kept at the 'I can abuse and/or kill you as per my favorite whims' stage by you acting against his wrecks?? Whether you agree with the GSM's decision or not, he made a decision, would you rather he sat on his hands all day ignoring every request that came in for any kind of issue? Based on the mission runners comments in the Blog, I'd say he was doing his best to remain reasonable, and to get an answer out of CCP, he probably did not expect to get the ship back, and based on his comments, he probably did not read your blogs. (Shocking I know, but not everyone takes a Sun Tzu View to intelligence) and thus was not familiar with your favorite devious tricks, yes, this game punishes you for doing something stupid, yeah, he did something stupid, he honestly believed the game had glitched and/or faulted and he petitioned CCP based on that belief and opinion. CCP took him at his word (probably after checking his account's history of such petitions and his previous loss-mails) and made a decision that they thought was fair, you can stand on the side-lines and scream 'FOUL' if you want, but it ain't gonna change CCPs decision, so now I get to use the term you all love to throw around whenever a Mission runner or miner complains about your tactics... HTFU!!! IT'S A GAME!! and the GM's rule is STILL absolute. EDIT: To replace Filth-Filtered word Actually, the annoying thing here is that a formal ruling was made on this years ago, where it was determined that extending aggro via wreck shooting was not an exploit. CCP has even now made it possible to remove your claim to wrecks so that they can't be used against you. The issue isn't that a GM made a decision one way or another, it's that GM's don't even seem to be capable of consistency... great.. decide it one way or the other... just come up with some consistent method, instead of this "he gets reimbursement, you get Jack" despite it being the identical situation.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.11.07 13:08:00 - [258] Originally by: Mo0seluffer Even more proof of why the world is the way it is now.Keep making excuses and dodging the reality of it all there Zanadoo.You cant keep modifing the mechanics or excuses.The whole wreck is no ones.Nor the loot inside.As you ninjas have always said.1st come 1st served.If the wreck is the OPS why no aggression when someone salvages it?CAUSE IT ISNT HIS! Keep telling yourself that if you like but don't expect others to believe that.Until the name of the corp is removed from wrecks,that wreck is and will remain the property of that corp. Funny how the "owner" can shoot the wreck and no one else can without getting concorded in high sec too isn' it?What does that tell you?So you can argue about the salvage belonging to no one..but dont start saying the wreck belongs to no one while their name is clearly on it. But feel free to deny reality if it makes you feel better.
Feilamya Pain Elemental	Posted - 2010.11.07 19:00:00 - [259] Originally by: HeIIfire11 Edit:Fact is that there is a timer on aggo for a reason..and not to be extended by any given player for as long as he pleases.So it is an exploit. No, this is is your wishful thinking. Fact is that aggro CAN be extended. Deal with it.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.11.07 20:07:00 - [260] Quote: To be completely fair to the GMs, the reason why he got reinbursed was that his original aggro timer was extended for an hour, presumably by shooting wrecks. I guess this is the first step towards extending aggro being declared an exploit. Have to agree with this. While I have used this extensively in the past, I never fooled myself into thinking this was really intended game mechanics. It's inconsistent and NOT DOCUMENTED ANYWHERE. While I am certainly not opposed to ways for hisec missiongrinders to have a little risk, it's a pretty bad mechanic. I support this for the same reason I supported fixing the Lofty way back.

HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.11.07 22:13:00 - [261] Originally by: Feilamya Originally by: HeIIfire11 Edit:Fact is that there is a timer on aggo for a reason..and not to be extended by any given player for as long as he pleases.So it is an exploit. No, this is is your wishful thinking. Fact is that aggro CAN be extended. Deal with it. Whatever man,I have better things to do than yelling rabbit/duck season back and forth with you.You do see the guy got his ship back right? What proof do you have that it is not an exploit? None..I didnt think so.


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