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Exploration - Apocryphia: why oh why?

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Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:26:00 - [1] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 15:35:58 Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 15:31:10 Exploration or who is guilty? Note: this specifically doesnt include WHs, where apparently stuff is different due to sheer sig masses. So I come back after like 14 months + pause. Of course the "probing" system picks my interest. After 3 weeks nonstop scannign and pobing with this "new system" I honestly have the urge to... p"$Ç. Compared to the old system it is as follows: even more clumsy (except the creation of scan points for a system - which had a need too btw) n00b proof - no matter how much brain one lacks: just move enough circles on the little red or yellow circle, but not too close fast: WTF? 120 seconds down to 4 seconds? Some developer had a wet dream didnt he? skilless: Who needs skill with the new system? Astrometrics 5 doesnt really cut it with the wannabee multispec probe. You are busted if you have high skills - you plain dont need those when alone. no charges: before you had to manage cargo and stuff, now you jsut recall and have **loads of probes KILL the color blind: at least it seems that was a design commandment. A Nebula system as background and I want to see some color blind people do it - CCP does have issues with disabled people? If not - why do it? accurate... : I saw some post gloating about triangulation and physical accuracy... Whoever from CCP wrote this: Get ice cream instead and forget what you wrote. Simply because its a lie. Usability: found some posts about it - no need to repeat about moving bubbles and stuff - thats the part where physically disabled people with disorders die their horrible death or have a wish to .... CCP ... Bottom line: the new system is too easy for too low skills for people who are 100% physically healthy and who dont want to think when playing EvE. Hence my question: CCP - why?** (Please nothing of the "its balanced" or "other said its ok" bs - this system is made for 14 year old kids on purpose or by some developer who is exceptionally º&º&ºº% and wanted somethign even he can understand.) PS. Before you complain: 1. Yes, this is a rant. 2. This "new" system is so bad - no matter what some fanbois told or wrote about it - that it doesnt deserve a different kind of post. Something average (a grind) was made anew and changed to the worse (new system), what did you expect? 3. Someone might tell: you are all wrong with what you write here! You are alone! Then I look on Jita and how piles of Deadspace stuff are auctioned by always younger accounts (no chance to require skill for exploration, when you have to train for your Tengu as a newbie). 4. No you cant have my stuff, friends will when I leave.
Kyle Sucks Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:33:00 - [2] Ever try travelling from a Class 6 wormhole? We're talking dozens of cosmic sigs before you can make your escape, to low-sec space... Just **** off and adapt. You're the one who decided to go afk.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:35:00 - [3] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 15:36:48 Originally by: Kyle Sucks Ever try travelling from a Class 6 wormhole? We're talking dozens of cosmic sigs before you can make your escape, to low-sec space... Just ** off and adapt. You're the one who decided to go afk. Get your own **. Apart from that I wasnt talkign about WHs and will add those to my post. PS: had you actually read my post youd have seen that it includes parts of your issues too.
Lady Ayeipsia	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:38:00 - [4] I like the current system. It works well and I have no problems. I would not enjoy reverting to the older system. So really, I'm sorry you don't like the change, but I think you will now find yourself in the minority.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:39:00 - [5] Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia I like the current system. It works well and I have no problems. I would not enjoy reverting to the older system. So really, I'm sorry you don't like the change, but I think you will now find yourself in the minority. Whats your skills and what do you do with the new system?
Kyle Sucks Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Elena Vherokia PS: had you actually read my post youd have seen that it includes parts of your issues too. What issues? Without the boosts to scanning, it'd be ****ing hell. In short: I don't agree with you.
Ifly Uwalk Caldari Empire Tax Collection Agency	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Elena Vherokia you are all wrong with what you write here! You are alone!
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Kyle Sucks Originally by: Elena Vherokia PS: had you actually read my post youd have seen that it includes parts of your issues too. What issues? Without the boosts to scanning, it'd be ****ing hell. In short: I don't agree with you. Then skill up or find your brain, which apparently was lost in translation. a. people with disabilities in real have issues with this system (esspecially contrasts and colors and handlign of spheres) b. this system is too easy for EXPLORATION as in radar, ladar and unknown-non-WH-sites Just for you I added a sentence at the beginnign of my post in the hope the next of your kin sees it.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:23:00 - [9] Edited by: Tippia on 19/08/2010 16:25:07 Originally by: Elena Vherokia - This post specifically is not aimed at WHs sites or life, where I have no additinal experience. àbut the new scanning system is, so you're not really in a position to comment on it. Aside from that, it actually requires some (minute) player skill beyond "waiting", unlike the old one and (character) skills still matter. In addition, repeating the same complaint three times over doesn't make you have more points ù you're just trying to hide that you don't have much to say. Oh, and you don't actually explain what's wrong with the new system and how it's been developed ù you just barf out a bunch of unfounded complaints. Accessibility issues aside, your entire post can be answered with "so what?" There. Counter-rant. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:40:00 - [10] As you have seen your comments have been met with overwhelming dislike. I know you're talking about non-wh stuff but you have to realize that being in a wh can take an hour or more just to scan all the sigs. What you have suggested would increase that at least 4 fold. I agree the scanning system needs improvements. Just not in the direction you suggest.
Lady Ayeipsia	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:46:00 - [11] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia I like the current system. It works well and I have no problems. I would not enjoy reverting to the older system. So really, I'm sorry you don't like the change, but I think you will now find yourself in the minority. Whats your skills and what do you do with the new system? Gee, I use the new system for exploration. I use it to find all site types. I also go into wormholes to find sites in there of all sorts. I even use the new system to try to probe down mission runners and the like in low sec, nul, and wormholes. In other words, there really isn't a situation where I haven't used the new system. And I use exploration as my primary source of income because it's fun, I like seeing what is out there, and well, finding a good wormhole and running the sites I've found in there is both profitable and enjoyable. As for my skills, I would say extremely good. Either level 4 or 3 for the basic astrometric skills, and Covert Op/Racial frigates that I use to 5. Racial frigates to 5 was for the Covert Op (and assualt) T2 frigs, and Covert Ops to 5 is for both the benefit to probing, but also to be a very good Stealth bomber. So yes, my skills may be overkill, but they suit my play style well. So sorry change happened and you didn't like it. Honestly, if they change the current system, I too may feel as you do. However, for now, I like what is presently available and see no argument from you that would merit reverting back to the older system.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:54:00 - [12] I agree with the OP - the new system is terrible. The old system of deploy-cloak-initiate scan-redtube.com for 10 minutes was vastly superior. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Daergaar Caldari Yama Seki	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:57:00 - [13] You're welcome to continue using the old system. You then have the advantage of a free high slot from not having use a scan probe launcher! Win-win, right? I wouldn't complain about newbies finding complexes and deadspace. I know you weren't talking about W-space, but wormholes are FAR more profitable than plexes/missions/deadspace...if you survive. 2 of my corpmates and I went into a Class 3 wormhole. It took awhile to scan down (you don't always find the class of wormhole you want), but we went in, and an hour later when we came out, we were EACH about 37 million richer. Granted, we're all 2 year old characters or older. You need those combat skills to survive the sleepers in there. It's not newbie friendly (except for class 1). If you get stuck inside one without a scan probe launcher fitted...well, not much you can do but pod yourself!
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:02:00 - [14] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 17:02:42 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia Gee, I use the new system for exploration. I use it to find all site types. I also go into wormholes to find sites in there of all sorts. I even use the new system to try to probe down mission runners and the like in low sec, nul, and wormholes. In other words, <snip> As for my skills, I would say extremely good. Either level 4 or 3 for the basic astrometric skills, Rite the second when I thought what a needless rant I brought up... lvl 3/4 in astro skills? Thx for making my point - this system is waaaaaay too easy.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 17:02:42 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia Gee, I use the new system for exploration. I use it to find all site types. I also go into wormholes to find sites in there of all sorts. I even use the new system to try to probe down mission runners and the like in low sec, nul, and wormholes. In other words, <snip> As for my skills, I would say extremely good. Either level 4 or 3 for the basic astrometric skills, Rite the second when I thought what a needless rant I brought up... lvl 3/4 in astro skills? Thx for making my point - this system is waaaaaay too easy. Because everything is supposed to be unusable if you have less than lvl 5 in it - levels 1-4 are merely placeholders, and are not intended to allow any effective use of the skills, AMIRITE? --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:17:00 - [16] Originally by: Elena Vherokia lvl 3/4 in astro skills? Thx for making my point - this system is waaaaaay too easy. So what? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Dolm De'Mourne	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:22:00 - [17] Edited by: Dolm De''Mourne on 19/08/2010 17:25:51 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 17:02:42 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia Gee, I use the new system for exploration. I use it to find all site types. I also go into wormholes to find sites in there of all sorts. I even use the new system to try to probe down mission runners and the like in low sec, nul, and wormholes. In other words, <snip> As for my skills, I would say extremely good. Either level 4 or 3 for the basic astrometric skills, Rite the second when I thought what a needless rant I brought up... lvl 3/4 in astro skills? Thx for making my point - this system is waaaaaay too easy. Ok, starting to feel inferior here due to not being able to lock something on 3 occasions with 3's across the board. Maybe my definition of easy is a bit lax, but saying 3/4 skills is way too easy would seem to lock alot of people out of being able to functionally do anything. Why do you see that as a good thing?
Lady Ayeipsia	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:35:00 - [18] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 17:02:42 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia Gee, I use the new system for exploration. I use it to find all site types. I also go into wormholes to find sites in there of all sorts. I even use the new system to try to probe down mission runners and the like in low sec, nul, and wormholes. In other words, <snip> As for my skills, I would say extremely good. Either level 4 or 3 for the basic astrometric skills, Rite the second when I thought what a needless rant I brought up... lvl 3/4 in astro skills? Thx for making my point - this system is waaaaaay too easy. Ah, one of those people who feel that you must have billions of skill points to be able to do anything in this game besides spin ships in station. And you came back why?
vekol	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:42:00 - [19] Originally by: Elena Vherokia a. people with disabilities in real have issues with this system (esspecially contrasts and colors and handlign of spheres) You don't need any disabilities, it's terrible. Shouldn't be hard to "fix" for ccp so please, DO IT.
Dolm De'Mourne	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:53:00 - [20] Originally by: vekol Originally by: Elena Vherokia a. people with disabilities in real have issues with this system (esspecially contrasts and colors and handlign of spheres) You don't need any disabilities, it's terrible. Shouldn't be hard to "fix" for ccp so please, DO IT. I can see adding ways to increase contrast for obvious reasons, but what else would you change about it? How would it be "fixed"? I'm not familiar with the old system so I cannot draw any comparison between the 2.
Salvage Contractor	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Bottom line: the new system is too easy for too low skills for people who are 100% physically healthy and who dont want to think when playing EvE. Hence my question: CCP - why? Because, quite frankly and just like in real life, no one gives a **** about disabled people. Those who are impaired in some way or another are such as small fraction of the paying subscriber based that it just doesn't make economical sense to develop with their needs in mind. Sucks for those who can't do it but again, not CCP's problem.
Outa Rileau Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2010.08.19 18:29:00 - [22] Because all other games are tailored for the physically, mentally, and visually impaired. ------------------------- OMG YELLOW TXT!
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.08.19 20:05:00 - [23] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Compared to the old system it is as follows: even more clumsy (except the creation of scan points for a system - which had a need too btw) clumsy or is it that learning curve thing again? n00b proof - no matter how much brain one lacks: just move enough circles on the little red or yellow circle, but not too close because the old system required brains? orly.. fast: WTF? 120 seconds down to 4 seconds? Some developer had a wet dream didnt he? no skills vs max skills, nice comparison. this is where i start to think troll... skilless: Who needs skill with the new system? Astrometrics 5 doesnt really cut it with the wannabee multispec probe. You are busted if you have high skills - you plain dont need those when alone. you didn't need astro 5 for the old system. deep space probes still require it. no charges: before you had to manage cargo and stuff, now you jsut recall and have **loads of probes how is having to carry 17 different kind of probes better than just one?** beyond here in your post just real bad rant. yes the graphics are terrible in some systems, and get rid of the stupid black disk on the solar plane already.. overall, i'd say much improved in the exploration side. for ships and pods i like the old system, tho. one short range probe gave a warpable hit in about 45 secs which i still can't match with new system.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.08.19 20:29:00 - [24] The old system was better? Are you insane? Maybe you just do not remember the old system since you don't play anymore. Here's a refresher in the old system. All sigs were within 4 AU from a planet. So you think you drop a probe on each planet but oh no you could not drop a probe within 4 AU of another probe. In a lot of systems planets are bunched together. So what you had to do is warp around a lot and make tons of safespots in order to try to get a spot that was 4.1 AU away from your other probe or else you'd not be scanning everywhere. Even then you usually didn't get 100% coverage. Also in the old system the chance of getting a hit was extremely low, the good 10/10 complexes had such a ridiculously chance to hit, like around 1-3%. So what you'd do is hit scan, wait 2 minutes and get nothing and then hit scan again and you don't even know if the signature is out of range of your probes. A good plex took around 45 minutes to scan out. Oh and my skills are cov ops V, sisters launcher/probes/gcu rigs and all probing skills to 4 and I've scanned a lot in both of the systems. New system is about 100000x better than old system. The only bad thing about the new system is I have a lot more competition because very few people could take the utter boredom of the old system. Old system = Hit scan for an hour and watch tv New system = Hunt for signatures where you have to actually pay attention OP = Whiny bitter vet - It's not "Play through a pre-set story, become stronger, do endgame". Gameplay is open ended, and you make your own story. Unless you're too afraid of 'pvp grief' to do anything relevant
Spineker Caldari Chain of Dogs	Posted - 2010.08.19 20:43:00 - [25] The old system was more interesting. You had to actually work and think to get what you wanted. It was dumbed down to near mindless level now, I guess CCP wanted to make sure to use the lowest IQ for a measure of difficulty... When exploration came out it was hell of a lot of fun and interesting not to mention I made billions in exploring. It was something special you had to be skilled for.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 20:49:00 - [26] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 20:50:58 Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 20:50:12 Originally by: K'racker vs Elena Vherokia Compared to the old system it is as follows: even more clumsy (except the creation of scan points for a system - which had a need too btw) clumsy or is it that learning curve thing again? Its safe to assume you use it, so of those issues you prolly know yourself, which I call clumsy: - Grab a sphere arrow for one direction (arrow is blue when you click it) and instead either * have the sphere jet 100 AU away or * move in 2 directions instead of one or * just realize that you drag another sphere size. Moving sphere's with those arrows, with this zoom function, with this lack "of stick to arrow" should have never made it live. Thats clumsy! Originally by: K'racker vs Elena Vherokia n00b proof - no matter how much brain one lacks: just move enough circles on the little red or yellow circle, but not too close because the old system required brains? orly.. C'mon yes it needed brains - more than this one. Originally by: K'racker vs Elena Vherokia fast: WTF? 120 seconds down to 4 seconds? Some developer had a wet dream didnt he? no skills vs max skills, nice comparison. this is where i start to think troll... For PvE everythign below 10 seconds is laughable anyways - why? Because settign spheres up with that clumsy interface takes xxxxxxxxxx times than scanning. Basically with this system scanning time below 10 secs is of zero interest. For PvP - ship scanning scan time is totally different: A good scanner in tracking down a ship should need 1-2 scans with combats (assuming he used the directional scanner before to have a rough idea of the place to look for) to hit a ship. If done smart with some patience the targets only chance would be 1-2 times 4 seconds to realize he is being tracked. Sounds reasonable to me :D Originally by: K'racker vs Elena Vherokia skilless: Who needs skill with the new system? Astrometrics 5 doesnt really cut it with the wannabee multispec probe. You are busted if you have high skills - you plain dont need those when alone. you didn't need astro 5 for the old system. deep space probes still require it. Astro 5 made sense for the old system - diminishing returns - still made sense. The usefullness of Astro 5 for DS probes is just low, except when looking in one specific sig range only (and even then you got too much trash on scanner too). Originally by: K'racker vs Elena Vherokia no charges: before you had to manage cargo and stuff, now you jsut recall and have **loads of probes how is having to carry 17 different kind of probes better than just one?** It wasnt 17 types ;) - claiming it was plain isnt true. But instead you couldnt recall probes so you had to use new ones - therefore cargo management for probes was an issue. Limitations are imho a good thing - yes. Why not improve the old system instead of making a new one (rite now it feels like windows 1.0). And exactly that imho makes it worth a rant. Yours Elena Vherokia (Jita 4-4 your Corpum a-type dealer )
Spineker Caldari Chain of Dogs	Posted - 2010.08.19 20:57:00 - [27] CCP basically made it a waste to have trained up skills and knowledge. What they did if we wanted to compare is take away all the work and level the field to a brainless level it would be the same as making the skills needed to build T2 Battleships something I could learn by next monday and be in production by tuesday. Or just train up capital ships over the weekend and fly a carrier next week. They screwed the people who worked hard. I don't want a level playing field I want to work for the things that are fun. If they are going to start using "fairness" as a guage than count me out.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:00:00 - [28] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 21:01:31 Originally by: Vaal Erit The old system was better? Are you insane? Maybe you just do not remember the old system since you don't play anymore. <snip spam> You had better maxxd your skills and learnt how to do it rite. I recall those times exactly and I didnt have your issues :P Boring times sometimes durign scanning? Yes! But boring is better than getting angry about a clumsy interface. Originally by: Vaal Erit Old system = Hit scan for an hour and watch tv New system = Hunt for signatures where you have to actually pay attention Old system = newbies or people who didnt know exactly what they do are bored and leave New system = Drag as much spheres as possible around but not too close and pray the interface doesnt cheat you This has nothign to do with paying attention. With 8 probes one should be able to scan 2 sites at once, but the system is so clumsy that there is close to no advantage in doing so. Originally by: Vaal Erit OP = Whiny bitter vet Vaal = one of those who need it easy mode Now I see why you need the new system this way and feel good with its clumsiness
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:01:00 - [29] Originally by: Spineker CCP basically made it a waste to have trained up skills and knowledge. How so, especially considering that you still need good skillsà? Your T2 comparison is quite inaccurate. Quote: They screwed the people who worked hard. "Worked hard"? How? By waiting a lot? Pffà Quote: I don't want a level playing field I want to work for the things that are fun. Funnily enough. a level playing field means you have to work harder to get what you want. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:08:00 - [30] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 21:10:24 Originally by: Tippia <snip> a level playing field means you have to work harder to get what you want. Which is ok so far. But it isnt ok if this means to have aspects which "worked" completly changed and/or drastically reduced in difficulty. This change paired with - the "Sentinel" in Crimson Hand being inactive (no paradise cruise missiles, no webber anymore), - dps-heavy rooms in other plexes empty of rats , - overseers behaving suddenly "stupid" and moving alone to the plexer, leaving all dps behind - ... Those changes all together paint one picture: EvE is becoming easy mode all of a sudden without telling anyone. That deserves the question: why oh why?

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