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Exploration - Apocryphia: why oh why?

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Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:26:00 - [1] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 15:35:58 Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 15:31:10 Exploration or who is guilty? Note: this specifically doesnt include WHs, where apparently stuff is different due to sheer sig masses. So I come back after like 14 months + pause. Of course the "probing" system picks my interest. After 3 weeks nonstop scannign and pobing with this "new system" I honestly have the urge to... p"$Ç. Compared to the old system it is as follows: even more clumsy (except the creation of scan points for a system - which had a need too btw) n00b proof - no matter how much brain one lacks: just move enough circles on the little red or yellow circle, but not too close fast: WTF? 120 seconds down to 4 seconds? Some developer had a wet dream didnt he? skilless: Who needs skill with the new system? Astrometrics 5 doesnt really cut it with the wannabee multispec probe. You are busted if you have high skills - you plain dont need those when alone. no charges: before you had to manage cargo and stuff, now you jsut recall and have **loads of probes KILL the color blind: at least it seems that was a design commandment. A Nebula system as background and I want to see some color blind people do it - CCP does have issues with disabled people? If not - why do it? accurate... : I saw some post gloating about triangulation and physical accuracy... Whoever from CCP wrote this: Get ice cream instead and forget what you wrote. Simply because its a lie. Usability: found some posts about it - no need to repeat about moving bubbles and stuff - thats the part where physically disabled people with disorders die their horrible death or have a wish to .... CCP ... Bottom line: the new system is too easy for too low skills for people who are 100% physically healthy and who dont want to think when playing EvE. Hence my question: CCP - why?** (Please nothing of the "its balanced" or "other said its ok" bs - this system is made for 14 year old kids on purpose or by some developer who is exceptionally º&º&ºº% and wanted somethign even he can understand.) PS. Before you complain: 1. Yes, this is a rant. 2. This "new" system is so bad - no matter what some fanbois told or wrote about it - that it doesnt deserve a different kind of post. Something average (a grind) was made anew and changed to the worse (new system), what did you expect? 3. Someone might tell: you are all wrong with what you write here! You are alone! Then I look on Jita and how piles of Deadspace stuff are auctioned by always younger accounts (no chance to require skill for exploration, when you have to train for your Tengu as a newbie). 4. No you cant have my stuff, friends will when I leave.
Kyle Sucks Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:33:00 - [2] Ever try travelling from a Class 6 wormhole? We're talking dozens of cosmic sigs before you can make your escape, to low-sec space... Just **** off and adapt. You're the one who decided to go afk.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:35:00 - [3] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 15:36:48 Originally by: Kyle Sucks Ever try travelling from a Class 6 wormhole? We're talking dozens of cosmic sigs before you can make your escape, to low-sec space... Just ** off and adapt. You're the one who decided to go afk. Get your own **. Apart from that I wasnt talkign about WHs and will add those to my post. PS: had you actually read my post youd have seen that it includes parts of your issues too.
Lady Ayeipsia	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:38:00 - [4] I like the current system. It works well and I have no problems. I would not enjoy reverting to the older system. So really, I'm sorry you don't like the change, but I think you will now find yourself in the minority.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:39:00 - [5] Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia I like the current system. It works well and I have no problems. I would not enjoy reverting to the older system. So really, I'm sorry you don't like the change, but I think you will now find yourself in the minority. Whats your skills and what do you do with the new system?
Kyle Sucks Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Elena Vherokia PS: had you actually read my post youd have seen that it includes parts of your issues too. What issues? Without the boosts to scanning, it'd be ****ing hell. In short: I don't agree with you.
Ifly Uwalk Caldari Empire Tax Collection Agency	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Elena Vherokia you are all wrong with what you write here! You are alone!
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 15:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Kyle Sucks Originally by: Elena Vherokia PS: had you actually read my post youd have seen that it includes parts of your issues too. What issues? Without the boosts to scanning, it'd be ****ing hell. In short: I don't agree with you. Then skill up or find your brain, which apparently was lost in translation. a. people with disabilities in real have issues with this system (esspecially contrasts and colors and handlign of spheres) b. this system is too easy for EXPLORATION as in radar, ladar and unknown-non-WH-sites Just for you I added a sentence at the beginnign of my post in the hope the next of your kin sees it.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:23:00 - [9] Edited by: Tippia on 19/08/2010 16:25:07 Originally by: Elena Vherokia - This post specifically is not aimed at WHs sites or life, where I have no additinal experience. àbut the new scanning system is, so you're not really in a position to comment on it. Aside from that, it actually requires some (minute) player skill beyond "waiting", unlike the old one and (character) skills still matter. In addition, repeating the same complaint three times over doesn't make you have more points ù you're just trying to hide that you don't have much to say. Oh, and you don't actually explain what's wrong with the new system and how it's been developed ù you just barf out a bunch of unfounded complaints. Accessibility issues aside, your entire post can be answered with "so what?" There. Counter-rant. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:40:00 - [10] As you have seen your comments have been met with overwhelming dislike. I know you're talking about non-wh stuff but you have to realize that being in a wh can take an hour or more just to scan all the sigs. What you have suggested would increase that at least 4 fold. I agree the scanning system needs improvements. Just not in the direction you suggest.

Lady Ayeipsia	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:46:00 - [11] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia I like the current system. It works well and I have no problems. I would not enjoy reverting to the older system. So really, I'm sorry you don't like the change, but I think you will now find yourself in the minority. Whats your skills and what do you do with the new system? Gee, I use the new system for exploration. I use it to find all site types. I also go into wormholes to find sites in there of all sorts. I even use the new system to try to probe down mission runners and the like in low sec, nul, and wormholes. In other words, there really isn't a situation where I haven't used the new system. And I use exploration as my primary source of income because it's fun, I like seeing what is out there, and well, finding a good wormhole and running the sites I've found in there is both profitable and enjoyable. As for my skills, I would say extremely good. Either level 4 or 3 for the basic astrometric skills, and Covert Op/Racial frigates that I use to 5. Racial frigates to 5 was for the Covert Op (and assualt) T2 frigs, and Covert Ops to 5 is for both the benefit to probing, but also to be a very good Stealth bomber. So yes, my skills may be overkill, but they suit my play style well. So sorry change happened and you didn't like it. Honestly, if they change the current system, I too may feel as you do. However, for now, I like what is presently available and see no argument from you that would merit reverting back to the older system.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:54:00 - [12] I agree with the OP - the new system is terrible. The old system of deploy-cloak-initiate scan-redtube.com for 10 minutes was vastly superior. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Daergaar Caldari Yama Seki	Posted - 2010.08.19 16:57:00 - [13] You're welcome to continue using the old system. You then have the advantage of a free high slot from not having use a scan probe launcher! Win-win, right? I wouldn't complain about newbies finding complexes and deadspace. I know you weren't talking about W-space, but wormholes are FAR more profitable than plexes/missions/deadspace...if you survive. 2 of my corpmates and I went into a Class 3 wormhole. It took awhile to scan down (you don't always find the class of wormhole you want), but we went in, and an hour later when we came out, we were EACH about 37 million richer. Granted, we're all 2 year old characters or older. You need those combat skills to survive the sleepers in there. It's not newbie friendly (except for class 1). If you get stuck inside one without a scan probe launcher fitted...well, not much you can do but pod yourself!
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:02:00 - [14] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 17:02:42 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia Gee, I use the new system for exploration. I use it to find all site types. I also go into wormholes to find sites in there of all sorts. I even use the new system to try to probe down mission runners and the like in low sec, nul, and wormholes. In other words, <snip> As for my skills, I would say extremely good. Either level 4 or 3 for the basic astrometric skills, Rite the second when I thought what a needless rant I brought up... lvl 3/4 in astro skills? Thx for making my point - this system is waaaaaay too easy.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 17:02:42 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia Gee, I use the new system for exploration. I use it to find all site types. I also go into wormholes to find sites in there of all sorts. I even use the new system to try to probe down mission runners and the like in low sec, nul, and wormholes. In other words, <snip> As for my skills, I would say extremely good. Either level 4 or 3 for the basic astrometric skills, Rite the second when I thought what a needless rant I brought up... lvl 3/4 in astro skills? Thx for making my point - this system is waaaaaay too easy. Because everything is supposed to be unusable if you have less than lvl 5 in it - levels 1-4 are merely placeholders, and are not intended to allow any effective use of the skills, AMIRITE? --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:17:00 - [16] Originally by: Elena Vherokia lvl 3/4 in astro skills? Thx for making my point - this system is waaaaaay too easy. So what? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Dolm De'Mourne	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:22:00 - [17] Edited by: Dolm De''Mourne on 19/08/2010 17:25:51 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 17:02:42 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia Gee, I use the new system for exploration. I use it to find all site types. I also go into wormholes to find sites in there of all sorts. I even use the new system to try to probe down mission runners and the like in low sec, nul, and wormholes. In other words, <snip> As for my skills, I would say extremely good. Either level 4 or 3 for the basic astrometric skills, Rite the second when I thought what a needless rant I brought up... lvl 3/4 in astro skills? Thx for making my point - this system is waaaaaay too easy. Ok, starting to feel inferior here due to not being able to lock something on 3 occasions with 3's across the board. Maybe my definition of easy is a bit lax, but saying 3/4 skills is way too easy would seem to lock alot of people out of being able to functionally do anything. Why do you see that as a good thing?
Lady Ayeipsia	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:35:00 - [18] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 17:02:42 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia Gee, I use the new system for exploration. I use it to find all site types. I also go into wormholes to find sites in there of all sorts. I even use the new system to try to probe down mission runners and the like in low sec, nul, and wormholes. In other words, <snip> As for my skills, I would say extremely good. Either level 4 or 3 for the basic astrometric skills, Rite the second when I thought what a needless rant I brought up... lvl 3/4 in astro skills? Thx for making my point - this system is waaaaaay too easy. Ah, one of those people who feel that you must have billions of skill points to be able to do anything in this game besides spin ships in station. And you came back why?
vekol	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:42:00 - [19] Originally by: Elena Vherokia a. people with disabilities in real have issues with this system (esspecially contrasts and colors and handlign of spheres) You don't need any disabilities, it's terrible. Shouldn't be hard to "fix" for ccp so please, DO IT.
Dolm De'Mourne	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:53:00 - [20] Originally by: vekol Originally by: Elena Vherokia a. people with disabilities in real have issues with this system (esspecially contrasts and colors and handlign of spheres) You don't need any disabilities, it's terrible. Shouldn't be hard to "fix" for ccp so please, DO IT. I can see adding ways to increase contrast for obvious reasons, but what else would you change about it? How would it be "fixed"? I'm not familiar with the old system so I cannot draw any comparison between the 2.

Salvage Contractor	Posted - 2010.08.19 17:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Bottom line: the new system is too easy for too low skills for people who are 100% physically healthy and who dont want to think when playing EvE. Hence my question: CCP - why? Because, quite frankly and just like in real life, no one gives a **** about disabled people. Those who are impaired in some way or another are such as small fraction of the paying subscriber based that it just doesn't make economical sense to develop with their needs in mind. Sucks for those who can't do it but again, not CCP's problem.
Outa Rileau Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2010.08.19 18:29:00 - [22] Because all other games are tailored for the physically, mentally, and visually impaired. ------------------------- OMG YELLOW TXT!
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.08.19 20:05:00 - [23] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Compared to the old system it is as follows: even more clumsy (except the creation of scan points for a system - which had a need too btw) clumsy or is it that learning curve thing again? n00b proof - no matter how much brain one lacks: just move enough circles on the little red or yellow circle, but not too close because the old system required brains? orly.. fast: WTF? 120 seconds down to 4 seconds? Some developer had a wet dream didnt he? no skills vs max skills, nice comparison. this is where i start to think troll... skilless: Who needs skill with the new system? Astrometrics 5 doesnt really cut it with the wannabee multispec probe. You are busted if you have high skills - you plain dont need those when alone. you didn't need astro 5 for the old system. deep space probes still require it. no charges: before you had to manage cargo and stuff, now you jsut recall and have **loads of probes how is having to carry 17 different kind of probes better than just one?** beyond here in your post just real bad rant. yes the graphics are terrible in some systems, and get rid of the stupid black disk on the solar plane already.. overall, i'd say much improved in the exploration side. for ships and pods i like the old system, tho. one short range probe gave a warpable hit in about 45 secs which i still can't match with new system.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.08.19 20:29:00 - [24] The old system was better? Are you insane? Maybe you just do not remember the old system since you don't play anymore. Here's a refresher in the old system. All sigs were within 4 AU from a planet. So you think you drop a probe on each planet but oh no you could not drop a probe within 4 AU of another probe. In a lot of systems planets are bunched together. So what you had to do is warp around a lot and make tons of safespots in order to try to get a spot that was 4.1 AU away from your other probe or else you'd not be scanning everywhere. Even then you usually didn't get 100% coverage. Also in the old system the chance of getting a hit was extremely low, the good 10/10 complexes had such a ridiculously chance to hit, like around 1-3%. So what you'd do is hit scan, wait 2 minutes and get nothing and then hit scan again and you don't even know if the signature is out of range of your probes. A good plex took around 45 minutes to scan out. Oh and my skills are cov ops V, sisters launcher/probes/gcu rigs and all probing skills to 4 and I've scanned a lot in both of the systems. New system is about 100000x better than old system. The only bad thing about the new system is I have a lot more competition because very few people could take the utter boredom of the old system. Old system = Hit scan for an hour and watch tv New system = Hunt for signatures where you have to actually pay attention OP = Whiny bitter vet - It's not "Play through a pre-set story, become stronger, do endgame". Gameplay is open ended, and you make your own story. Unless you're too afraid of 'pvp grief' to do anything relevant
Spineker Caldari Chain of Dogs	Posted - 2010.08.19 20:43:00 - [25] The old system was more interesting. You had to actually work and think to get what you wanted. It was dumbed down to near mindless level now, I guess CCP wanted to make sure to use the lowest IQ for a measure of difficulty... When exploration came out it was hell of a lot of fun and interesting not to mention I made billions in exploring. It was something special you had to be skilled for.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 20:49:00 - [26] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 20:50:58 Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 20:50:12 Originally by: K'racker vs Elena Vherokia Compared to the old system it is as follows: even more clumsy (except the creation of scan points for a system - which had a need too btw) clumsy or is it that learning curve thing again? Its safe to assume you use it, so of those issues you prolly know yourself, which I call clumsy: - Grab a sphere arrow for one direction (arrow is blue when you click it) and instead either * have the sphere jet 100 AU away or * move in 2 directions instead of one or * just realize that you drag another sphere size. Moving sphere's with those arrows, with this zoom function, with this lack "of stick to arrow" should have never made it live. Thats clumsy! Originally by: K'racker vs Elena Vherokia n00b proof - no matter how much brain one lacks: just move enough circles on the little red or yellow circle, but not too close because the old system required brains? orly.. C'mon yes it needed brains - more than this one. Originally by: K'racker vs Elena Vherokia fast: WTF? 120 seconds down to 4 seconds? Some developer had a wet dream didnt he? no skills vs max skills, nice comparison. this is where i start to think troll... For PvE everythign below 10 seconds is laughable anyways - why? Because settign spheres up with that clumsy interface takes xxxxxxxxxx times than scanning. Basically with this system scanning time below 10 secs is of zero interest. For PvP - ship scanning scan time is totally different: A good scanner in tracking down a ship should need 1-2 scans with combats (assuming he used the directional scanner before to have a rough idea of the place to look for) to hit a ship. If done smart with some patience the targets only chance would be 1-2 times 4 seconds to realize he is being tracked. Sounds reasonable to me :D Originally by: K'racker vs Elena Vherokia skilless: Who needs skill with the new system? Astrometrics 5 doesnt really cut it with the wannabee multispec probe. You are busted if you have high skills - you plain dont need those when alone. you didn't need astro 5 for the old system. deep space probes still require it. Astro 5 made sense for the old system - diminishing returns - still made sense. The usefullness of Astro 5 for DS probes is just low, except when looking in one specific sig range only (and even then you got too much trash on scanner too). Originally by: K'racker vs Elena Vherokia no charges: before you had to manage cargo and stuff, now you jsut recall and have **loads of probes how is having to carry 17 different kind of probes better than just one?** It wasnt 17 types ;) - claiming it was plain isnt true. But instead you couldnt recall probes so you had to use new ones - therefore cargo management for probes was an issue. Limitations are imho a good thing - yes. Why not improve the old system instead of making a new one (rite now it feels like windows 1.0). And exactly that imho makes it worth a rant. Yours Elena Vherokia (Jita 4-4 your Corpum a-type dealer )
Spineker Caldari Chain of Dogs	Posted - 2010.08.19 20:57:00 - [27] CCP basically made it a waste to have trained up skills and knowledge. What they did if we wanted to compare is take away all the work and level the field to a brainless level it would be the same as making the skills needed to build T2 Battleships something I could learn by next monday and be in production by tuesday. Or just train up capital ships over the weekend and fly a carrier next week. They screwed the people who worked hard. I don't want a level playing field I want to work for the things that are fun. If they are going to start using "fairness" as a guage than count me out.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:00:00 - [28] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 21:01:31 Originally by: Vaal Erit The old system was better? Are you insane? Maybe you just do not remember the old system since you don't play anymore. <snip spam> You had better maxxd your skills and learnt how to do it rite. I recall those times exactly and I didnt have your issues :P Boring times sometimes durign scanning? Yes! But boring is better than getting angry about a clumsy interface. Originally by: Vaal Erit Old system = Hit scan for an hour and watch tv New system = Hunt for signatures where you have to actually pay attention Old system = newbies or people who didnt know exactly what they do are bored and leave New system = Drag as much spheres as possible around but not too close and pray the interface doesnt cheat you This has nothign to do with paying attention. With 8 probes one should be able to scan 2 sites at once, but the system is so clumsy that there is close to no advantage in doing so. Originally by: Vaal Erit OP = Whiny bitter vet Vaal = one of those who need it easy mode Now I see why you need the new system this way and feel good with its clumsiness
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:01:00 - [29] Originally by: Spineker CCP basically made it a waste to have trained up skills and knowledge. How so, especially considering that you still need good skillsà? Your T2 comparison is quite inaccurate. Quote: They screwed the people who worked hard. "Worked hard"? How? By waiting a lot? Pffà Quote: I don't want a level playing field I want to work for the things that are fun. Funnily enough. a level playing field means you have to work harder to get what you want. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:08:00 - [30] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 21:10:24 Originally by: Tippia <snip> a level playing field means you have to work harder to get what you want. Which is ok so far. But it isnt ok if this means to have aspects which "worked" completly changed and/or drastically reduced in difficulty. This change paired with - the "Sentinel" in Crimson Hand being inactive (no paradise cruise missiles, no webber anymore), - dps-heavy rooms in other plexes empty of rats , - overseers behaving suddenly "stupid" and moving alone to the plexer, leaving all dps behind - ... Those changes all together paint one picture: EvE is becoming easy mode all of a sudden without telling anyone. That deserves the question: why oh why?

Spineker Caldari Chain of Dogs	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:11:00 - [31] Your T2 comparison is quite inaccurate. No it isn't there were tons of skills people maxed out to be very good at exploration. Specialized equipment, ships, skill sets, gear, knowledge. Now it is clumsy dumbed down and boring. With no reward hardly. "Worked hard"? How? By waiting a lot? Pffà If that is the best you can come up with I dare say right here and now YOU NEVER used the old system. Scanning time was never an issue with me, if anything annoying about it wasnt scan time but warp time scanning was part of the fun, not knowing what was going to happen getting a hit. I could plan out my exploration, know exactly where I was going in low-sec and know exactly the dangers involved then hit the systems I wanted scann down my Radar site in 20 mins or so raid it and move on. But there were many things you had to be able to do in order to succeed at that. Sure scanning was hard waiting is bad? Funnily enough. a level playing field means you have to work harder to get what you want. Work harder? no you mean you dumb it down so it is no longer interesting or profitable.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:13:00 - [32] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Which is ok so far. But it isnt ok if this means to have aspects which "worked" completly changed and/or drastically reduced in difficulty. Why not? Quote: Those changes all together paint one picture: EvE is becomign easy mode all of a sudden without telling anyone. So what? Quote: That deserves the question: why oh why? Because, again, you're not looking at what the scanning system is meant to be used for ù you're looking at the kids' stuff and complaining that it's easy. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Spineker Caldari Chain of Dogs	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:15:00 - [33] So what? That says everything. So what? Reminds me of society thinking winning is wrong and everyone should be equal losers.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:20:00 - [34] Originally by: Spineker So what? That says everything. Yes, it does. It says "welcome to a new game where you actually have competition for the goods, and where you have to earn your rewards." It's a good thing. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:34:00 - [35] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 21:35:26 Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 21:34:52 Originally by: Tippia <snip> Tippia: Please, please leave it as it is now - Id have to think to use a different one - please... Elena Vherokia: Dont worry you wont loose easy mode - CCP has its reasons for sure. All I asked was: Why oh why? Elena Vherokia: So? Why?
Dolm De'Mourne	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:48:00 - [36] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 21:35:26 Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 21:34:52 Originally by: Tippia <snip> Tippia: Please, please leave it as it is now - Id have to think to use a different one - please... Elena Vherokia: Dont worry you wont loose easy mode - CCP has its reasons for sure. All I asked was: Why oh why? Elena Vherokia: So? Why? From your explanation of the old system it seems the only active part of the scanning was the initial placement of the probe which would involve actually warping to the spot to leave them. Then you may have to scan several times to see what was there, and that process was much longer. Again, why is that better? Currently the skills help you lock at higher scan radii through stronger scan strength, scan faster, and reduce the "lying" your probes do. Why is just waiting through several long scan cycles for chance "smarter?"
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.19 21:50:00 - [37] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 21:35:26 Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 21:34:52 Originally by: Tippia <snip> Tippia: Please, please leave it as it is now - Id have to think to use a different one - please... Elena Vherokia: Dont worry you wont loose easy mode - CCP has its reasons for sure. All I asked was: Why oh why? Elena Vherokia: So? Why? Here's why: The old system was a dismally boring abortion that was never used by anybody but the most die hard of masochists and, as a general rule, having systems in the game that aren't considered worthwhile to use by the vast majority of the population is bad design. Additionally, allow me to burst your bubble: Feel free to spare us any more of your idiotic and disingenuous elitism. There was nothing difficult about the old system. Not even a little bit. Time consuming? Sure. Difficult? Only if you're the type of person who struggles with tying their own shoelaces. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Svekke Minmatar The Shepards	Posted - 2010.08.19 22:08:00 - [38] I don't see your point either. There are currently exploration sites which simple can not be scanned down unless you have lev 4+ in most scanning skills, use faction gear, cov ops ship and even then some still require an implant to increase your scanning strength even further. Try a 10/10 ded site for example. Then ofcourse these sites only exist in lowsec and mostly nullsec, which I doubt you ever went to. Or maybe you did go down there and got podded by someone probing you down who you reckon had low skills. Even for that there is a fix! Reprocess your drake and buy a unprobable tengu.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 22:34:00 - [39] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 22:39:19 My Dear Mr NewBie or Svekke, just because you are that wise: Originally by: Svekke Edited by: Svekke on 19/08/2010 22:22:56 I don't see your point either. There are currently exploration sites which simple can not be scanned down unless you have lev 4+ in most scanning skills, use faction gear, cov ops ship and even then some still require an implant to increase your scanning strength even further. Funnily those high end sites are for the most part not worth it. Interesting sites are: - average difficulty in lowsec and - easy in nullsec Revenue/risk/hour in 6/10 or 7/10 (or comparable non DED sites) >>>>> 10/10 (or comparable sites like military complex etc.) Since you dont know that, I doubt your expertise - sounds more like a clueless babble you brought up. Originally by: Svekke Try a 10/10 ded site for example. Your point? Been there done it - not worth it. Originally by: Svekke 10/10 sites also require leadership 5 and a bit of social skills(real ones) if I remember correctly. But then again you do your scanning and exploration alone. You obviously have no clue about the return and/or revenue of 10/10s compared to other sites. Why dont you learn exploring before you babble such obvious bs?
Spineker Caldari Chain of Dogs	Posted - 2010.08.19 22:36:00 - [40] Edited by: Spineker on 19/08/2010 22:41:08 Before you edited Svvek I was going to ask who would want to find a 10/10 DED site anyway? Exploring was always solo event for me, more money. Now it is just a waste of time and energy. As for lowsec when exploring came out .3 systems and .2 where the most profitable per hour systems to explore in. 00 was ok if you had a gang but then it was less profits. Anyway I was never even remotely close to being podded nor did I ever lose an CovOps Anethema which Covops was the only way to seriously explore.

Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.19 22:47:00 - [41] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 22:49:55 Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Additionally, allow me to burst your bubble: Feel free to spare us any more of your idiotic and disingenuous elitism. There was nothing difficult about the old system. Not even a little bit. Time consuming? Sure. Difficult? Only if you're the type of person who struggles with tying their own shoelaces. Moving around your probes inside spheres aka bubbles - thats exactly what you do in the "new exploration" system. Dont complain at my bursting bubbles when its yours - mmkkay? --- We now heard those for the most part who made it obvious they need "easy mode". Now maybe a sane answer? Why oh why?
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.19 22:59:00 - [42] Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 19/08/2010 23:02:46 A reason was given: Virtually nobody liked the old system. A lot of people like the new one. Systems that are universally disliked are bad. A universally disliked system was replaced with one that a large portion of the population now participates in. We get that you liked feeling as if you were somehow part of a small, elite group with the wherewithal to watch endless timer countdowns. Tough ****. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Spineker Caldari Chain of Dogs	Posted - 2010.08.19 23:12:00 - [43] Yes I would rather be elite something wrong with that? Success? Oh I see others want it to be handed to them, its called entitlement generations.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.19 23:22:00 - [44] Originally by: Spineker Yes I would rather be elite something wrong with that? Success? Oh I see others want it to be handed to them, its called entitlement generations. You must have missed the sarcasm - there was nothing elite about sitting on your ass watching a timer tick down. It was boring, bad design - and it was improved upon greatly. There is nothing difficult about the new system, but there wasn't anything difficult about the old one, either. To think otherwise is to delude yourself. What you really don't like is that more people use the system now. You're basically like those hipster types who hate any band that more than 40 people have heard of. HTFU --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Svekke Minmatar The Shepards	Posted - 2010.08.19 23:43:00 - [45] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 22:51:52 My Dear Mr NewBie or Svekke, Originally by: Svekke 10/10 sites also require leadership 5 and a bit of social skills(real ones) if I remember correctly. But then again you do your scanning and exploration alone. You obviously have no clue about the return and/or revenue of 10/10s compared to other sites. Why dont you learn exploring before you babble such obvious bs? You obviously have no clue that MMORPG means massively "multiplayer" online rpg and that some people like to play it for fun with "friends". If the only thing that matters to you is your ammount of isk/hr you pull in I'd suggest you go and run missions. I actually do like to run 10/10 sites and I don't care about revenue or anything like that, aslong as I had a laugh. Just as much as I like to tackle drone sites or mine all the veldspar in a mission or combat site. And if having fun at what I do makes me a "NewBie" then fine, I am a "NewBie", atleast I'm not stressed out if I don't get my daily shot of isk. Have you ever tried PI? A "NewBie" with one week worth of skills can make about 300 mil per week by doing "clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick". How is that fair? I'll bother with return and revenue in real life, where it actually matters. Kisses from your greatest fan! xxxx Svekke
Kyle Sucks Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.08.20 01:02:00 - [46] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey You're basically like those hipster types who hate any band that more than 40 people have heard of. QFT.
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.08.20 02:02:00 - [47] LoL at OP. Yes, we all miss a boring system that required no player involvement. Not. Only people who never scan think astrometrics 5 is useless now. Only n00bs or people that don't scan pvp targets think high skills/implants/sisters stuff/etc are useless. Go back to the land of bitter vets who don't play, you weren't missed.
Siamese Kitten	Posted - 2010.08.20 02:08:00 - [48] requests a moderator lock for excessive OP trolling
K'racker Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.08.20 04:17:00 - [49] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: K'racker vs Elena Vherokia no charges: before you had to manage cargo and stuff, now you jsut recall and have **loads of probes how is having to carry 17 different kind of probes better than just one?** It wasnt 17 types ;) - claiming it was plain isnt true. But instead you couldnt recall probes so you had to use new ones - therefore cargo management for probes was an issue. Limitations are imho a good thing - yes. as i recall for exploration there were 4 different sensor type probes (grav,mag,ladar,radar) x 4 different ranges = 16 + one multi-spec. plz correct me.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.20 05:25:00 - [50] Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2010 05:31:52 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Tippia: Please, please leave it as it is now - Id have to think to use a different one - please... Elena Vherokia: Dont worry you wont loose easy mode - CCP has its reasons for sure. All I asked was: Why oh why? Elena Vherokia: So? Why? Incorrect. Elena: Onoz, I can't handle competition, and my AFK income is gone! Tippis: Yes, so what? Elena: Whaaaaa! Tippis: So what? Elena: DON'T WANNA WORK!! Tippis: So what? You still haven't explained why this is a bad thing. Your question was answered almost immediately: because it is aimed towards a new kind of exploration that you don't know about and haven't engage in, which makes you entirely unsuited to make any kind of comment about how it works. It's also infinitely better than the old one since it relies on player skill rather than appeasing the RNG god; it relies on active participation, rather than waiting around; it relies on research, rather than hoping for the best. The old system wasn't "hard" ù it was mind-numbing, which is why you didn't have to deal with the competition. Now, it's actually usable and (gulp!) it involves gameplay, so more people engage in it. If you can't handle the increased competition this creates, then that's something lacking on your part, not with the system. The mere fact that it yields these kinds of "onoz! I have to compete" outbursts from the lazy and complacent shows that not only was the change dearly needed ù it is working beautifully. Quote: We now heard those for the most part who made it obvious they need "easy mode". Now maybe a sane answer? No we haven't. Or rather, yes ù we've heard a lot of kvetching from those of you who desperately miss your AFK easy mode, but you haven't actually presented any argument why it should be brought back; why you don't want to work for your stuff; why you can't handle competition. You also haven't explained how it would benefit the new exploration environment (where, btw, you're still playing in the kiddie pool ù maybe that's why you find it too easy? Go out and try the real "grown-up" stuff). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki

Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.20 06:04:00 - [51] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 20/08/2010 06:06:03 Originally by: Svekke Edited by: Svekke on 19/08/2010 23:57:51 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 22:51:52 My Dear Mr NewBie or Svekke, Originally by: Svekke 10/10 sites also require leadership 5 and a bit of social skills(real ones) if I remember correctly. But then again you do your scanning and exploration alone. You obviously have no clue about the return and/or revenue of 10/10s compared to other sites. Why dont you learn exploring before you babble such obvious bs? You obviously have no clue that MMORPG means massively "multiplayer" online rpg and that some people like to play it for fun with "friends". If the only thing that matters to you is your ammount of isk/hr you pull in I'd suggest you go and run missions. <snip> Then there was a mentally 13-year old, who thinks he knows the correct drawer for each player... If you want to Troll do it - but do it right.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.20 06:11:00 - [52] Originally by: Vilgan Mazran LoL at OP. Yes, we all miss a boring system that required no player involvement. Not. Only people who never scan think astrometrics 5 is useless now. Only n00bs or people that don't scan pvp targets think high skills/implants/sisters stuff/etc are useless. learn2read Saves you from the hazzle of people laughing at the fool you are. Simply since I wrote nothign of what you told above in this thread.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.20 06:12:00 - [53] Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2010 06:14:35 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Then there was a mentally 13-year old, who thinks he knows the correct drawer for each player... So you agree, then, since you can't think of a single counter-argument and have to go straight for the ad hominem. Good. Then it's settled. Quote: Simply since I wrote nothign of what you told above in this thread. You mean apart from the bit where you said you didn't need skills any more, and certainly not Astro V? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.20 06:32:00 - [54] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 20/08/2010 06:32:48 Originally by: Tippia You mean apart from the bit where you said you didn't need skills any more, and certainly not Astro V? Since you fail at scrolling one page back: Originally by: Elena Vherokia Astro 5 made sense for the old system - diminishing returns - still made sense. The usefullness of Astro 5 for DS probes is just low, except when looking in one specific sig range only (and even then you got too much trash on scanner too). So far it seems people answered who either cant read or who try to Troll a rant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To refresh those who cba'd to read the whole thread: - The current system puts the physically disabled on a huge disadvantage (rl). This esspecially applies to colors/contrast and hand-eye-coordination. Its the worst part ever done in usability by CCP. (please only comment on this one if you really did probing for some time and stop trolling this part) - The current system is too easy on the high income/high return exploration sites. Anyone with low skills can directly do those. The return of high-end skills in exploration has been killed. - The greates difficulty in the new system is to drag spheres aka bubbles (which dont like to be dragged :P ) - For PvP the new system feels good apart from usability and its clumsiness. Question: Why not update the old system but instead create a new windows 1.0 system? Why oh why?
Una Achura	Posted - 2010.08.20 08:26:00 - [55] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 20/08/2010 06:42:33 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Astro 5 made sense for the old system - diminishing returns - still made sense. The usefullness of Astro 5 for DS probes is just low, except when looking in one specific sig range only (and even then you got too much trash on scanner too). Too much trash in results? Sounds like you fail at maiking filters then... Quote: So far it seems people answered who either cant read or who try to Troll a rant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To refresh those who cba'd to read the whole thread (updated thread start post): - The current system puts the physically disabled on a huge disadvantage (rl). This esspecially applies to colors/contrast and hand-eye-coordination. Its the worst part ever done in usability by CCP. (please only comment on this one if you really did probing for some time and stop trolling this part) The contrasts are bad, I agree, espcially in dark bly/green systems, a bit easier in reddish systems. Can be overcome with some hassle by moving the POV around... If you can't do hand-eye coordination you are pretty much screwed anyway in all the other kinds of gameplay as well. How do you even target stuff?? Quote: - The current system is too easy on the high income/high return exploration sites. Anyone with low skills can directly do those. The return of high-end skills in exploration has been killed. Noooo, rather K-space sites are no longer the high income sites, those have been replaced by WH-sites. One can still support oneself and some moderatly expensive habits by highsec exploration alone though. If, that is, one is clever enough to find the right systems to probe in. Quote: - The greatest difficulty in the new system is to drag spheres aka bubbles (which dont like to be dragged :P ) Hint: Try holding down shift while dragging, and try clicking on the probe itself, not the bloody arrow... The arrows are for fine tuning, not large movements...
SwissChris1	Posted - 2010.08.20 08:51:00 - [56] Edited by: SwissChris1 on 20/08/2010 08:51:57 CCP could introduce handicap stickers for the disabled, then they could use special handicapped parking in stations ... and yes I am trolling because this thread is just rediculous. Your argument is that because you have a six year old account everything should be easy for you and screw everyone else. New players are important for the continued existance of eve...guess what, your loyalty alone doesn't keep servers running, money does. Just sell one of your t2 BPOs and play eve free for life (almost). Adapt or move on. I doubt that there is anyone in eve who wants to change the scan time from 4 seconds back to 120 seconds...
DNightmare Stripper Mine Co.	Posted - 2010.08.20 09:00:00 - [57] yay someone rages about the probing system... Just wanna get my 2 isk in before this thread is either locked or disappears in the endless space of forum page 100: To be honest: Both system are kinda borked and have their problems! But instead of trying to get the old and beloved one back I think some small fixes to the new one would be all what is needed. - The ship-preview window shows us that the engine is capable of handling two different renderoutputs at the same time, so why not do something like a splitscreen with one view from the top and one view from the side of solarsystem X, remove the boxes from the probes and only keep the arrows for the correct view (topview -> move probe on X & Y, sideview -> move them on Z) Think of it a bit like the systemoverview you can open where you have those three little sidewindows for region, constellation, system - Introduce another scan category so wormholes can be filtered - Bring back one thing I really miss from the old days: Multispecs! Sometimes I'm not in the mood for complexes or don't have a salvager around, so with multis you can hunt down exactly what you wanna do - Yeah, grav / mag sites will get ignored even more with multis so they need some redesign / adjusting to be worth the effort again <veteran raging> - Well, make sigs a bit harder to probe, at least in low/0.0/w-space. I have all the skills & stuff but that doesn't mean I don't like a challenge and some 'fiddeling' around to get my results to 100%. Someone above mentioned all those stupid hours he needs to scan a C5 / C6 with lots of sigs: The longest run I had was about 2.5 hrs with the OLD system, the new one... well I can go 32-8-2AU for most stuff, 1-0.5 for some better Radars and that's it, done!. Probed out every system, no matter how many signatures in there in < 1 hr so far but most of the time I'm done after ~10 minutes (Because we have omniprobes now and don't have to launch the correct probes for each signaturetype + we don't have to make bookmarks to place the probes at good spots) - A bit more risk in low/0.0 for probers would be nice. Right now I only lost 2 ships because I was stupid again so can't blame the probesystem for that, apart from that there's literally no risk if you sit in your Cheetah hunting down stuff cause you can warp, cloak etc. Why not make your ship having to decloak when you wanna recall probes? (as you need to be decloaked to launch em in the first place) Or you can only initiate scan without any active module and out of warp? Just all those little bits that give others a chance to maybe track you down ;) No I'm not one of those others but I like a little bit of adrenaline instead of being 99%+ safe all the time. </veteran raging> Just some points to think about before complaining. Yes it's noob-friendler than before (I even got a couple of RL friends into eve and explained them HiSec Radar probing for a lil sideincome if bored from other activities, takes only ~7days skilling) but that's not really bad, because it saves alot of time in the exploration channel answering the same questions over and over again and as stated some times now, competition is no bad thing. Now before some in here jump me with "Hey man, you never have used the old system it seems rabble blabla" Well if YOU actually used the old one and remember the time back then you prolly will know my name ;) Time to get back to my probe launcher, DNightmare PS: Won't talk about the problem for disabled people cause, sad but true,that's kinda found everywhere in eve and OP just used it to support his raging.
Johan Sabbat Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.08.20 09:35:00 - [58] Ignoring the rant-fest about the new system being just moving spheres and too easy. I'd just like to easily view the star map, flat from above through 90 degress to flat from the side (and because I'm greedy each angle in between and spin the system through 360 degrees). -- Fake edit It would be so good if everyone laughs at me and then tells me how to do all the above.
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.20 11:27:00 - [59] Edited by: Naomi Wildfire on 20/08/2010 11:36:49 Quote: I know you weren't talking about W-space, but wormholes are FAR more profitable than plexes/missions/deadspace...if you survive. 2 of my corpmates and I went into a Class 3 wormhole. It took awhile to scan down (you don't always find the class of wormhole you want), but we went in, and an hour later when we came out, we were EACH about 37 million richer. 37m per hour? Thats loughable low, you can beat that by far even with ratting and doing anomalies. For your interest, i've made 8b in 3 days in a few hours of work, you would have made around 2,7b in constant 72 hours of killing sleepers. Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 22:51:52 My Dear Mr NewBie or Svekke, Originally by: Svekke 10/10 sites also require leadership 5 and a bit of social skills(real ones) if I remember correctly. But then again you do your scanning and exploration alone. You obviously have no clue about the return and/or revenue of 10/10s compared to other sites. Why dont you learn exploring before you babble such obvious bs? Since i'm a 10/10 runner and run those in around 30 minutes, i can say "the return and/or revenue of 10/10s compared to other sites" is pretty good. If you dont have a clue how to do it right, i wouldnt mind if you just be silent What i dont like on probing atm are, when you lower your probe boxes below the "0 mark" and they turn almost unseeable dark.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.20 11:37:00 - [60] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Since you fail at scrolling one page back: Since you fail at understanding the new system: Astro 5 in makes sense because it lets you assess the value of a system at a glance. If you feel this makes for "low" usefulness, you're not really interested in exploration for profit, so the fact that there are more people competing for the sites make no difference for you. Quote: - The current system puts the physically disabled on a huge disadvantage (rl). This esspecially applies to colors/contrast and hand-eye-coordination. Its the worst part ever done in usability by CCP. (please only comment on this one if you really did probing for some time and stop trolling this part) This is the only actual complaint you have, but you're missing the bigger picture: it's bad for everyone, not just the disabled. Quote: - The current system is too easy on the high income/high return exploration sites. Anyone with low skills can directly do those. The return of high-end skills in exploration has been killed. First of all: false. Second of all, even if it were true: so what? You seem to believe that the exploration environment hasn't changed (and you've even said yourself that you have no actual experience of the new environment), so you're assuming that the "high end" is still the same place it used to beà based on sheer ignorance. Quote: - The greatest difficulty in the new system is to drag spheres aka bubbles (which dont like to be dragged àwhich is infinitely more difficult from the old one, which was simplistic to the point of being 99% bottable. Quote: Question: Why not update the old system but instead create a new windows 1.0 system? This has been answered. Comment on the answers, or the only conclusion can be that you have never actually scanned using either the old or the new system. Basically, you're complaining that it's too easy in the kiddy pool, and you're alluding to being outsmarted in said poolà àand then you try to make that a problem with the system?! ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki

Lord Amentia Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.20 14:04:00 - [61] I agree with the op. Generally the system is clumsy made and the handling needs alot of improvement. It is making my poor head spin :D
Dorotent	Posted - 2010.08.20 15:28:00 - [62] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2010 11:43:05 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Since you fail at scrolling one page back: Since you fail at understanding the new system: Astro 5 in makes sense because it lets you assess the value of a system at a glance. ...how? Not trolling, genuinely curious since training for Deep Space probes and finding that I wasn't able to 'glance' at a system in the way I'd heard about (from the old rules I assume).
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.20 15:32:00 - [63] Originally by: Dorotent ...how? Not trolling, genuinely curious since training for Deep Space probes and finding that I wasn't able to 'glance' at a system in the way I'd heard about (from the old rules I assume). You build up a database over what signal strengths correspond to what kind of site, toss out a DSP (or eight) to cover the entire system and hit scan, and compare the hits you get to what you've recorded. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Dolm De'Mourne	Posted - 2010.08.20 15:39:00 - [64] Edited by: Dolm De''Mourne on 20/08/2010 15:50:26 Edited by: Dolm De''Mourne on 20/08/2010 15:47:21 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 19/08/2010 22:49:55 Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Additionally, allow me to burst your bubble: Feel free to spare us any more of your idiotic and disingenuous elitism. There was nothing difficult about the old system. Not even a little bit. Time consuming? Sure. Difficult? Only if you're the type of person who struggles with tying their own shoelaces. Moving around your probes inside spheres aka bubbles - thats exactly what you do in the "new exploration" system. Dont complain at my bursting bubbles when its yours - mmkkay? --- We now heard those for the most part who made it obvious they need "easy mode". Now maybe a sane answer? Why oh why? You still haven't actually answered any part of my question, save that you seem to not understand the concept of finding something based on spacial reasoning instead of chance, making those "bubbles" rather relevant. I'm still not seeing how a static configuration of probes with a long wait for a chance based result is better. As far as the interface goes, I could see some minor control improvements but personally can't figure too much better of a way to manipulate object in a 3d space using a 2d interface/control set. To make my question more clear, are you stating that the waiting in the old system, either for the scan completion or the skills to train, counts as skill? Maybe the initial placement of the probes (which now has to be done several times to account for deviation)? What am I missing here?
Salvage Contractor	Posted - 2010.08.20 15:58:00 - [65] Originally by: Tippia You build up a database over what signal strengths correspond to what kind of site, toss out a DSP (or eight) set at max range to cover the entire system and hit scan, and compare the hits you get to what you've recorded. This type of approach works fine without DSP though I agree that it may take you approximately 13.4946943659646 seconds longer to do it without.
Wolfcheck Pack o' Wolves	Posted - 2010.08.20 16:38:00 - [66] Edited by: Wolfcheck on 20/08/2010 16:38:50 It's pretty easy to perceive oneself as the only one who "gets it" if you claim that the simple fact of thinking differently means "wanting it easy". By disqualifying any disagreement "a priori", it's obvious that only agreement has any value. But it's a logical fallacy. I haven't used the old system, but the simple fact that a vast majority of people NOW use it that did not before defines it as "better". Can be easier. Can be "dumbed down". Can even be "easy mode". Doesn't matter in the slightest. So now, if Deadspace stuff were lying in piles in jita, then prices would've dropped crazily. Yet I still see I can't afford to deadspace fit my ship, no matter what. I might not be rich but I could buy an orca and a pos tomorrow... yet I can't fit my battleship with deadspace gear. So much for "piled up stuff". The OP states: Quote: Note: - This post esspecially applies to exploration as in exploration site: Radar, Ladar, Unknown-non-WH-sites. - This post specifically is not aimed at WHs sites, where I have no additinal experience. So, you basically take out half or more of the scanning system and say the other half is stupid. You say you don't care about 10/10 sites, and you don't care about WH, and thus the system is broken. Now, I can take exhumers and say I haven't ever met any ship that is less useful. They are so bad that despite what FANBOYS will say, no one in their sane mind will ever buy one. This sentence is not aimed at miners. This has been explained to you so many times it's not even funny anymore. Yet you still have that question in yer mind eh? "why oh why"? Cuz the vast majority of eve likes it this way. We're noobs? We're tards? We're a bunch of whiny guys? Yeah, maybe. So whAT? HTFU, or GTFO. That's your choice. EDIT: for spelling.
Svekke Minmatar The Shepards	Posted - 2010.08.20 18:57:00 - [67] Edited by: Svekke on 20/08/2010 19:03:50 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 20/08/2010 06:06:03 Then there was a mentally 13-year old, who thinks he knows the correct drawer for each player... If you want to Troll do it - but do it right. Well I sure know your drawer. It's so obvious! I'm not even going to respond on that age estimate, but I do agree to the other reply on this fact that if this is the only counter argument you can come up with you just fail at argumentation. Someone got pumped in the butt with the new exploration system, leaves out more than half of the content and then blames those that counter his arguments by saying they are newbies or lack experience. What I am visualizing now is a scary emo-rage boy living with his mom, lacking social skills, projecting everything he is on other people in his only defense. Well I have news for you kiddo, making a 'I don't like this feature because the parts that can be run solo are too easy for the majority of people, and now I make lower profits from it' does not make you a sudden expert in the subject. I am pretty confident that most people who gave a decent response have way more on hands experience with the game and exploration in general, in the whole context. And maybe, a few tips about how mmo games are designed: 1. Solo content is for the newer players to get started and learn the ropes. So it is supposed to be easy for everyone. On exploration it already was easy, but the redesign just made the profession a whole lot more accessible to this target crowd and make more sense. 2. The harder more difficult content is there to give groups of players a great challenge, but does not necessarily have to lead to a greater profit per person ratio. It is all about planning and beating the encounter, acquiring goals of the tram you are playing with. 3. The content I describe in nr2 is everything you left out in your original post. So do you have any clue what you are talking about. Sorry to break it to you, but no. 4.Games that do provide easy content from beginning to end, where you can compete with the hardcore gamers at an almost unfair level without any need of skill. Well I know only one: World of Warcraft. Lord of the Rings Online also falls in this area, yet in there without any interest in the actual story it will become even more boring than WoW. With all due respect to WoW players, it's a choice, it's a lifestyle. So is being gay and I have no problems with those people either.) Now.. you want to be a solo player, fine. Just don't come crying that everybody can do what you can do and things are too easy. And just if you are one of those who does not give up because he is not open for any other opinion but his own I would like to state: "You can not win this argument, ever. You lost it at the second you started calling people names etc." And before you get in in your head looking up every name or incorrect judgment I used on you...well never mind, please, make my day But then again, I'm just a mental 13 year old "NewBie". (I like the way you spell it though, makes it look a bit German). Greetings and kind regards, Svekke (edit: wow statement just popped in my head the second I clicked submit, also sentence construction and spelling)
Daergaar Caldari Yama Seki	Posted - 2010.08.20 21:13:00 - [68] Originally by: Svekke With all due respect to WoW players, it's a choice, it's a lifestyle. So is being gay and I have no problems with those people either.) Don't you dare even bring that into this thread. Just don't. As to the other player who was laughing at the fact that me and my friends made only 37 million in an hour in W-space...it was fun for us and our first time in there. I'm sure that W-space is significantly more profitable than that if you have the proper skills/fleet/setup. If it weren't, would people be trying to set up POSs in there otherwise instead of just running 10/10 complexes?
khazak mokl Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2010.08.21 07:48:00 - [69] I have used both the old system and the new system and I feel the new way is alot better in general. I am also colour blind and have no problem scanning stuff out. I live in a C5 WH and I do most of the scanning(PvP or PvE) for my corp if I am online. I have skills at 3 or 4 and no implants and use a covert ops with grav rigs and can get pretty much any sig in 5 or 6 scans. Once you have half decent skills and a good ship its more down to method than any thing else. I admit it would be good to have a feature where u can save standard probe configurations but it isnt a hardship to not have it.
Celia Therone	Posted - 2010.08.21 09:30:00 - [70] I think that both systems are/were flawed. The new system really does not give you much incentive to train up to level 5 in the scanning skills or fit scanning implants. The old system really did and that's a good thing. Just like getting BS 5 is desirable, getting pinpointing 5 should be too after all real life time based skill training is one of the ways that CCP encourages people to keep giving them money. The new system isn't really skill based. It's a repetitive strain inducing time sink. It'd be much better if it replaced some of the clicking and dragging with thinking. Right now I just tune my brain out when I have a lot of scanning to do. To be fair there was almost no skill in the old system either after safespot placement. Although there were a couple of times as a noob when I didn't have the skills to get a warpable hit within 1000km yet I got to the site anyway by manually triangulating several hits and using warp to 100km to move my ship to where I thought the site would be. They really ought to have done a loot re-balance for radar sites. Nearly all the value has shifted from encryption books, bpcs and bpc components to decryptors and it just keeps getting worse. It's classic market fail - you can't control what a can drops so you can't choose to concentrate on high value items (lowering production of low value, thus raising the price whilst increasing production of high value items, lowering their price.) The same design flaw that broke sleeper salvage and wormhole gas prices only even worse because you only need to read each race's book once per manufacturing character and acquire one of each interface. And for magnetometrics and gravs too, for different reasons, probably myko ladars but those are a lot more complicated. The lack of contrast in some systems is lamentable. Having to switch the view from top down to bottom up because you moved your probes down a pixel and now they're on the other side of the system 'shadow' median? Even then some systems (exacerbated by some graphics cards I think) are completely horrible to scan. The probe widget arrows still aren't thick enough. It'd be nice if you could group probes so that when you're adjusting all of group A it doesn't move/resize the probe bubbles on group B. Ship combat probing needs a complete re-work. No un-scannable ships, but the defender needs to be able to defend. The d-scan spam is rsi bs. I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting. (Note, though, that they have been subtly fixing things in the new probing interface like launchers auto-re-loading all stacks of probes in your bay at once and being able to multi-select and ignore in the probe hit box.)

Kaian Voskhod	Posted - 2010.08.21 09:52:00 - [71] With the news system, i can hunt mission runner i just war deced. All that soloable. Yummi marauders. And with the 10% tax, more and more are in a corp.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.08.21 10:26:00 - [72] My main gripes with probing (separately to any issues with exploration in general) are the way that the spheres overlap each other, and the nasty interaction when probes have to be placed below the system's plane and thus under the useless shadow. Then there are the probes that disappear off into the distance when you click their movement boxes, move in the wrong axes or cause other probe ranges to change. Off I go to do more probing on my own and remember to bug report every UI problem rather than just shrugging it off as another instance of "windows programmer syndrome." -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2010.08.21 10:38:00 - [73] I like the old system becuase you could scan someone else probes and smartbomb them. Scanning PVP. Now its impossible so its sucks.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 10:14:00 - [74] Originally by: DNightmare PS: Won't talk about the problem for disabled people cause, sad but true,that's kinda found everywhere in eve and OP just used it to support his raging. Not really, but do understand where that impression comes from.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 10:20:00 - [75] Originally by: Naomi Wildfire Since i'm a 10/10 runner and run those in around 30 minutes, i can say "the return and/or revenue of 10/10s compared to other sites" is pretty good. If you dont have a clue how to do it right, i wouldnt mind if you just be silent a. if you ar ein an alliance b. if you got one of the soloable 10/10 plex factions c. if you are on low risk to be busted (aka loads of friends near) d. if you gota faction with nice drops (not armor tank since those prices are just dropping down low) e. ... then you might hold true, that 10/10 income is ok. Whereas 6/10, 7/10 and 8/10 can be run easier, faster, found easier, faster and plain bring more return in the same time. We could start nitpicking now about records in completion and income, which is pointless since both incomes are good and sometimes excel on a lucky drop.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 10:24:00 - [76] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 22/08/2010 10:24:52 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elena Vherokia Since you fail at scrolling one page back: Since you fail at understanding the new system: Astro 5 in makes sense because it lets you assess the value of a system at a glance. If you feel this makes for "low" usefulness, you're not really interested in exploration for profit, so the fact that there are more people competing for the sites make no difference for you. Yada, yada, yada please just dont bs people because you think you might know more about deep space probes. Arrogant kid that is. 1. You can assess which sigs are in a system with a DS 2. If you got a nice list you can look up of what might be in system and which sig is a candidate for something - you dont know for sure from a DS; and drone sites, WHs, grav sites, ladar sites,... are trash to someone not hunting for those - ya know? Mkaay? Reading? Reading = good for you. kthxbye
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 10:37:00 - [77] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 22/08/2010 10:38:28 Originally by: Dolm De'Mourne You still haven't actually answered any part of my question, save that you seem to not understand the concept of finding something based on spacial reasoning instead of chance, making those "bubbles" rather relevant. There is no need to answer you, simply because you assumed of what I am asking instead of reading what I posted. You know: reading makes it possible to answer what was asked for. For your assumptins I suggest you create a new topic. Anyways here the part you most likely stumbled upon in more detail: 1. Elena: the old system was a grind, but not clumsy - still it direly needed a change 2. Elena: the new system is so clumsy, that its barely better than the old system if at all 3. Elena: Hence my question: Why not improve the old system and make a 2.0 or 3.0 version of the old? From here my personal opinion: - the new system behaves so clumsy that it wasnt worth the effort to create it anew in the first place - reading the Dev Blogs about it, it seems - when reading between the lines - that it was only about makign it easier. Making it easier without telling aka "Easy" in the disguise of "Better". As a result thats the attitude CCP imho shows here and thats what I consider bs. Its brown, its laying on the ground, its warm and it stinks - something like that got a name - and thats exactly what the new system imho is. Swapping a bs grind for a clumsy bs doesnt bring it.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 10:41:00 - [78] Originally by: Celia Therone I think that both systems are/were flawed. Thats what this is about.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.22 11:27:00 - [79] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Yada, yada, yada please just dont bs people because you think you might know more about deep space probes. Yes, please stop doing that. Quote: If you got a nice list you can look up of what might be in system and which sig is a candidate for something - you dont know for sure from a DS; and drone sites, WHs, grav sites, ladar sites,... are trash to someone not hunting for those - ya know? àwhich is why you want to be able to sort them out at a single click. Which DSes let you do if you actually have some player skill and don't expect the game to do it for you the way the old easy-mode system did. Of course, not being all that familiar with the new system (such as not seeing the benefits of the skills and not actually having used it in its real environment), you wouldn't know this. Until you do, stop feeding people nonsense based on your own inexperience. Quote: Anyways here the part you most likely stumbled upon in more detail: 1. Elena: the old system was a grind, but not clumsy - still it direly needed a change 2. Elena: the new system is so clumsy, that its barely better than the old system if at all 3. Elena: Hence my question: Why not improve the old system and make a 2.0 or 3.0 version of the old? And here's what you've failed to explain: what's clumsy about the new one? If it's so clumsy, why do you call it "easy mode"? Have you considered what the system needs to do in the new exploration environment? If this is truly how you feel, all of your hollering and posturing basically boils down to a simple matter of UI: you don't like working in 3D space. As for #3: they did improve the old system by removing the AFK in favour of actual gameplay and active player involvement, by removing randomness in favour of player input, by ditching static placement and equipment restrictions on dynamic and player-selectable mechanics. That's why we have what we have now. In fact, can you name a single thing from the old system you would want back and explain why? What is there to save? And, again: what do feel is actually wrong with the new system ù saying it is "clumsy" is a thoroughly inadequate and void of any kind of useful information. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 11:34:00 - [80] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 22/08/2010 11:34:22 Originally by: Tippia àwhich is why you want to be able to sort them out at a single click. I phail - to see where I stated that one... simply because I didnt. Is it a disease of yours or are imputations what you consider a discussion or argument?

Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.22 11:43:00 - [81] Edited by: Tippia on 22/08/2010 11:46:48 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Tippia àwhich is why you want to be able to sort them out at a single click. I phail - to see where I stated that one... simply because I didnt. In Post #76, you said you didn't want to probe for "trash" sites. My answer to that was that a DS lets you. Now, was that really so hard to follow? edit: I guess you aren't familiar with the general use of "you" ù it has more uses that simply referring to you, personally, you knowà Oh, and why can't you answer the actual questions? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 11:54:00 - [82] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Tippia àwhich is why you want to be able to sort them out at a single click. I phail - to see where I stated that one... simply because I didnt. Stated what exactly? In Post #76, you said you didn't want to probe for "trash" sites. My answer to that was that a DS lets you. Nice you linked the post because I didnt write what you told - not there, not anywhere else. Instead in that post I summarized the current state of the game as is - in my typical blunt style. Seriously - out of curiosity, do you suffer from "a congenital lack of capacity for reasoning, or a temporary state of daze or slow-mindednes"? Wikipedia - Stupidity
Hitoshi Yamadori	Posted - 2010.08.22 11:59:00 - [83] There is only one thing I want to change is the color It often makes me sit a few inches in front of the screen, to identify the probes out of the gray in gray.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.22 12:01:00 - [84] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Nice you linked the post because I didnt write what you told What are you on about? I didn't say you wrote anything (aside from the bit I quoted, which is straight out of post #76). Quote: Seriously - out of curiosity, do you suffer from "a congenital lack of capacity for reasoning, or a temporary state of daze or slow-mindednes"? Do you suffer from delusions of grandeur, or are you just completely unfamiliar with the generalised "you"? Again: you said some sites are trash. I said that this is why you (=one) want to sort out before hand what's there, and that a DS lets you (=one) do exactly that. I then said that you (=you, Elena) apparently aren't familiar enough with the new system to understand how. Ohà and those questions ù you've still left them unanswered. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 12:17:00 - [85] Originally by: Tippia In Post #76, you said you didn't want to probe for "trash" sites. You lil whiney lieing worm. Above is exactly what you claimed and I never wrote it. Slime elsewhere. CBA'd to answer fools like you (in other threads you were just called a "Troll")...
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 12:22:00 - [86] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 22/08/2010 12:26:31 Originally by: Hitoshi Yamadori There is only one thing I want to change is the color It often makes me sit a few inches in front of the screen, to identify the probes out of the gray in gray. How about: - You move probes to hits and cant find them (the hits from the last scan) after you turned down scan range? (since hits grey out, when not inside a sphere - this is a severe issue when you have 8 probes available and try to scan 2 hits at once) - Probes suddenly jet away? ( fine tune with arrow, grabbed an arrow, but system "misplaces" the sphere by 100-200 au) - "Tilted systems" - even though all celestials are in one plane, one encoutners "tilted solar systems" where the probes are not on the solar system plane? - Fine adjustment of probes with arrows - arrow is blue (for dragging) but system still readjusts the scan range of another probe? - Nebular systems with partially extremly light (white) background and you dont see your stuff? - Dark systems, where the background is so dark that you cant find your probes center? - ... A lot more - how about that? Or never encountered it?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.22 12:33:00 - [87] Edited by: Tippia on 22/08/2010 12:36:18 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Tippia In Post #76, you said you didn't want to probe for "trash" sites. You lil whiney lieing worm. Above is exactly what you claimed and I never wrote it. Slime elsewhere. Quote: you dont know for sure from a DS; and drone sites, WHs, grav sites, ladar sites,... are trash to someone not hunting for those - ya know? Your words. Btw, it's "lying" (I think this hints at the problem you're having here), and by your very own admission, you're the whiner, so stop projecting. Quote: CBA'd to answer fools like you (in other threads you were just called a "Troll")... So let's sum up: You can't think of anything you want to keep from the old system. ~~You can't specify anything that's wrong with the new one.~~ ← Corrected, you have UI issues, but nothing is apparently wrong with the scanning mechanic as such. You think it's too easy now ("easy" being the standard code for "I can't compete"). You have no arguments and therefore have to resort to ad hominems. You're quite right: this makes you a troll. Quote: - You move probes to hits and cant find them (the hits from the last scan) after you turned down scan range? (since hits grey out, when not inside a sphere - this is a severe issue when you have 8 probes available and try to scan 2 hits at once) - Probes suddenly jet away? - "Tilted systems" - even though all celestials are in one plane, one encoutners titled systems where the probes are not on the solar system plane? - Fine adjustment of probes with arrows - arrow is blue but system still readjusts the scan range of another probe? - Nebular systems with partially extremly light (white) background and you dont see your stuff? - Dark systems, where the backgroudn is so dark that you cant find your probes center? See? Was that really so hard? UI issues. Ok. These we can agree on. So why do we need to trash the probing system and go back to the old player-irrelevant AFK grind? Why not just fix these (surface polish) issues? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 12:54:00 - [88] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 22/08/2010 12:56:31 Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 22/08/2010 12:55:29 Originally by: Tippia See? Was that really so hard? UI issues. ... yada You know you deserve a headbang for that one - and a PM ingame for the lie above would be in order if you have a spine. Apart from that we now complete the tour of understanding of my posts since UI is only the start: 1. Interface (UI issues) "kills" the benefit of high end skills (8 probes offer low benefit in scanning 2 hits since moving those 8 probes together with sites greying out is a killer). 2. High end skills offer diminishing return for the player, who has them ( I do consider the DS probe "effect" low). 3. High value unknown sites with DS-items are too easy to find (this is bad - not only for my pocket but in fact a killer for the existing player-run economy in the long run). Solution - suggestion: - fix UI asap, since it sucks - scannign on lower skills must be harder, more difficult and take longer
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.22 13:43:00 - [89] Edited by: Tippia on 22/08/2010 13:45:20 Originally by: Elena Vherokia[:D You know you deserve a headbang for that one - and a PM ingame for the lie above would be in order if you have a spine. Here's a tip: if you want to call something a lie, make sure it's not true first. You made the claim, then said the exact quote of that claim wasn't something you said. àthat, or you just don't understand what "you" means. Take your pick. Either way, you've become very confused over what you yourself has said, and even more so what I've said. I would suggest that you read through the exchange again and think very very hard about what is written there. I'm sure you'll figure it out. Just remember "you" can refer to more things than Elena Vherokia ù this is an important lesson for you to learn. Quote: 1. Interface (UI issues) "kills" the benefit of high end skills (8 probes offer low benefit in scanning 2 hits since moving those 8 probes together with sites greying out is a killer). High skills have benefits of their own ù you're just not seeing them because you're not at the high end of exploration. In addition, what you're describing is a matter of player skill being able to compensate for character skill. This is a good thing. Quote: 2. High end skills offer diminishing return for the player, who has them ( I do consider the DS probe "effect" low). Same argument, same answer. Quote: 3. High value unknown sites with DS-items are too easy to find. That's because they're not the high end any more. Again: you're simply confused over the fact that the exploration environment has changed while you were gone ù it's not just a new system, but a new world, and it's your assumptions that things are still the same that trip you up, not some flaw with the system. Quote: - scanning on lower skills must be harder, more difficult and take longer Aforementioned perspective issues aside (ie. you're thinking lower skills makes no difference simply because you have no experience with the sites and situations where the difference is huge), why? Why shouldn't player skill be able to compensate? Still, you deserve a pat on the head and some candy for actually, finally being able to articulate an answer to one of the questions. Only two more to goà Pat Candy ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 16:07:00 - [90] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 22/08/2010 16:08:16 Originally by: Tippia Here's a tip: if you want to call something a lie, make sure it's not true first. Troll is Troll :) For the tip pot: learn to read next time before you make yourself look as stupid as you did :)

Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.22 16:18:00 - [91] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Troll is Troll :) For the tip pot: learn to read next time before you make yourself look as stupid as you did :) So, tell me again, what exactly was it you didn't say that I said you did? You're referring to this bit, in case you forgot: Originally by: You If you got a nice list you can look up of what might be in system and which sig is a candidate for something - you dont know for sure from a DS; and drone sites, WHs, grav sites, ladar sites,... are trash to someone not hunting for those - ya know? Originally by: Me àwhich is why you want to be able to sort them out at a single click. Which DSes let you do if you actually have some player skill and don't expect the game to do it for you the way the old easy-mode system did. Now. what in this quote didn't you say? Try to actually answer this time. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ashira Twilight	Posted - 2010.08.22 16:33:00 - [92] Originally by: Elena Vherokia dear ccps, i is mad cause i dont gots monopolies on xplorations no mores. i dun wan to competes for de lewtz. plz giv back awful gutwrenching xplorations systems, cuz i has diabilities, n stuffs
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 20:53:00 - [93] Originally by: Ashira Twilight Dear Life, I dont have one, so I try to look and appear intelligent. Yours Ashire fixed it for ya
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 20:58:00 - [94] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 22/08/2010 20:59:15 Apart from the Trolling (which my blunt style provokes) we should have a look at what exactly some fanbois/fangurlzz defend... I am an ingame screen, I was not made up, but my user just saw me exactly this way. Question: Where are the two hits of the same sig in this screen?
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.08.22 21:20:00 - [95] You have to click on the result in order to show the red dot/circle/sphere. Also according to that picture you are doing it wrong, no wonder you think scanning sucks. No one is saying that the UI in the new scanning system is perfect and there aren't any bugs in the new system. Of course the new scanning system has bugs and bad things that make it annoying. The shadow you get that makes probes all dark and hard to see makes me crazy. But the mechanic change from 40 minutes of click once -> wait 2 minutes -> click once -> wait 2 minutes to one where you have to be active is a good change. Lastly, neither system is harder than the other. Once you figure out how to scan it is the same thing over and over again, there are no new challenges or new possibilities. The new system is faster but faster is not the same as easier, both systems are easy. - It's not "Play through a pre-set story, become stronger, do endgame". Gameplay is open ended, and you make your own story. Unless you're too afraid of 'pvp grief' to do anything relevant
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.22 21:23:00 - [96] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 22/08/2010 21:25:09 Originally by: Vaal Erit You have to click on the result in order to show the red dot/circle/sphere. Also according to that picture you are doing it wrong, no wonder you think scanning sucks. No one is saying that the UI in the new scanning system is perfect and there aren't any bugs in the new system. Of course the new scanning system has bugs and bad things that make it annoying. The shadow you get that makes probes all dark and hard to see makes me crazy. But the mechanic change from 40 minutes of click once -> wait 2 minutes -> click once -> wait 2 minutes to one where you have to be active is a good change. Lastly, neither system is harder than the other. Once you figure out how to scan it is the same thing over and over again, there are no new challenges or new possibilities. The new system is faster but faster is not the same as easier, both systems are easy. a. it might be hard to see for you, but it actually is clicked (you see the grey underline color of the hits?) - the hit is close to the upper center 4 spheres together b. of course it is wrong and you are perfect ;) and since you know it better you can for sure tell whats wrong sweetheart :) ? In case you refer to the lower right spheres hun: those are remaints of a previous scan I eliminated. Dont assume too fast mmmmkay? Rule of thumb: with 8 spheres you can scan 2 hits at once...
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.08.22 22:31:00 - [97] I used to use the old system, many years ago, but mainly for scanning down ships to kill. I remember it being rather easy in terms of finding ships. I've recently started exploration, and I like the ease of the new system. However, I completely understand and agree with people that have certain bugbears about it. It would be nice if some things were fixed in the UI. The bright backgrounds. Trying to select a probe's plane when it's near planets/gates/etc. The little drop down icon gets annoying. Other than that, I'd like to be able to set up my probes in a pattern, and then have an option to have them focus inwards as I reduce the range. Anyway... I like the new system as a whole, and exploration can be fun and rewarding, even in High sec. And even with Astro 5, and all other skills at 4, using Sisters launcher/probe and a T3 electronic subsystem... I still rarely find a radar site that I cannot narrow down. So no, you still need high skills/items to get some sites. -G
Shinshi Casoyako	Posted - 2010.08.23 06:50:00 - [98] Originally by: Elena Vherokia - The current system puts the physically disabled on a huge disadvantage (rl). Sorry man, but do we have cars for the blind? no well lets nerve the driving system so that the blind can drive cars. Its hard to be disabelled (me being colorblind, nearsighted, dyslectic) but I scan down sites in under 4 minutes. And laziness aint a disabillity . Seriously Have I Not Said How I Can Assist Some One You Are Killing Online?
Daergaar Caldari Yama Seki	Posted - 2010.08.23 07:23:00 - [99] Originally by: Elena Vherokia a. it might be hard to see for you, but it actually is clicked (you see the grey underline color of the hits?) - the hit is close to those 4 spheres together. Actually both hits are app. 15 pixels above the middle sphere. I'm sure you already know that two hits of the exact same percentage are almost guaranteed to be the same object, right? If you used two of the 4 probes you left off to the side and increased their scan ranges, and intersected them around those 2 dots of the same percentage, you'd get a red ring, showing you the plane the object is in. Then you centre your probes on it (recall them first, it's easier that way), and then use the arrows to pull 1 to each side. Pull a 5th above. Use more probes to make it easier if you have higher Astrometrics. You can have a larger probe overlap everything to make sure you don't lose a signature. With 8 probes, you should be VERY fast at scanning something down. Someone with Astrometrics 2 (like me) has to work a lot harder because I have less flexibility on how I place my probes.
Wolfcheck Pack o' Wolves	Posted - 2010.08.23 07:58:00 - [100] Edited by: Wolfcheck on 23/08/2010 07:59:20 No one said the system is perfect. Yet you of course ignored at least one post that highlighted your total inability to understand logic, and proceeded to troll and call names, which is exactly the behaviour that one would expect given your answers in this thread. Originally by: Elena Vherokia a. it might be hard to see for you, but it actually is clicked (you see the grey underline color of the hits?) - the hit is close to those 4 spheres together. Actually both hits are app. 15 pixels above the middle sphere. If you clicked ONE it would've been highlighted. Also, if you zoomed in the sphere widget wouldn't cover 80% of the sphere interior, making it easier to spot the hits and to move them around. Originally by: Elena Vherokia And about easy: creating proper scan points in the old system was - an art. Clumsy too, a grind, but nonetheless an art and it ensured you are good in your home systems. There was a lot more to it, but at 2 min scan time I doubt you ever experienced it. Tough luck. They made it so that kids like it and you don't. Better move on to better games that cater to 1337 players like you and leave us grunts in the mud. And no, I don't want your stuff. Choice is still the same: HTFU or GTFO. I suggest GTFO. EDIT: Daergaar has it right. Very much so.

Mizar Amatali	Posted - 2010.08.23 09:19:00 - [101] Ok first of i would like to say my skills are pretty good - with 5 in astro and 4 in all suport skills. Second id like to point out i did TONS of scaning under old system mostly in 0.0 (omist at that time) Thirdly as im not disabled or color blind (to my knowledge) i cant really comment on that issues. All that said heres what i think - OP makes it seems worse than it really is but actualy has made valid points. In old system scanning itself was boring and easy - but getting it done efficently required thinking and much work making probing BMs (i still have around 300 for omist alone). All you people who point out to "scan and wait" method as all there was to probing are plainly wrong. Aditionaly,in the old system skills did matter and equipement you used also did matter. Harder sites (DED 8/10 up) were AT THE limit of my skills, granted i spent 10,s of hours by planing and making probing BMs in neighobring constelations and as far as i know getting PERFECT coverage for them. So no old system was not only about waiting for scan to end up as before you had to put much work in it, surely it wasnt mindless. So actually getting better skills and sisters equipement allowed you acces to sites otherwise un-probale. So yes there is a lot of difference. Then there is issue with interface itself - as OP pointed out astro 5 allows you to probe 2 sites at a time - this is theory. In practice the interface makes it inefficent - your better of, in terms of time, scanning one site after another because the time (and pain) of setting 8 probes is not worth it. That is a real issue as UI does not allow you to use skills you trained. This issue is even more valid when probing ships - they are not static and time needed to set probes (whatever system you try to use - scouting/pinning) makes scaning ships hard unless its mission runner/afk. So in my opinion new system could use some touches - im not claiming the right to judge which was better i just want to point out that there are flaws in new system: 1. bad interface 2. too easy scaning 3 you can scan pretty much everything with medicore skills Of course you may disregard point 2 and maybe because i may be biased because of tons of people scanning out "my" sites but consider work/profit thing. Of course better skills allow you too probe a little faster (skiping ranges by two or even three steps). Thing is that people who trained skills higher than usual 4/3 get almost no benefit from them. This was mostly on sites scan - ship scan benefits more from higher skills efficency so the problem is less visible here (unless interface problems pointed out above are discussed). Flame On
Soldarius Independent Coalition OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.23 09:35:00 - [102] Wow. I've never seen so many people who don't know how to use the new system properly. I won't say my way is the best. But it works for me. I will also allow that I never used the old system. But from what I've read so far,I know that I wouldn't care to spend an hour warping around making safes just to drop a motionless probe. I would however, like to have different probes for different sites (mag/radar/grav/ladar). Multispecs too. As the system is now, you cannot filter between them without scanning to a significant strength. As for the skills, I think it does need some tweaking. With level 3/4 skills, properly fitted/rigged covert ops and standard probes, I can scan small drones. But just barely. To date, since my last sp went into scanning, I have never failed to scan a site of any kind. Proper ship+rigs helps with that. But clearly the harder sites need to be even harder. There needs to be a benefit to train those skills up to 5. I find no need for more than 4 probes. I can use 5. But never do. Again, I don't see the point. I think multispectrals (current probes) should be weaker. Make the special ones I proposed above better. They are more specialized. The dark glass at the ecliptic needs to go. It just interferes with scanning. Sure, you can rotate the view to look up. But why bother? Just loose it. It serves no purpose and only gets in the way. The probes do sometimes get lost in the background. Again, you can rotate to compensate. But in some systems its about useless. You'd think our on-board computers would be smart enough to choose a color set that would always contrast well with the background. As long as the hit is highlighted (you can highlight more than one and they are all highlighted upon initial display of results) and the point is within a scan bubble, it will show up brightly. I would keep the highlight system, except in relation to the hit having to be inside an active scan bubble. Clicking on the hit in the results should be sufficient to keep it illuminated. 2 hits of the same percentage do not indicate the same object. However, 2 hits of the same ID are always the same object. That is by design. It is only by coincidence that those 2 results are almost always the same strength. The percentage is actually irrelevant at this point. Its the ID you need to watch. If you have issues with the "clumsy" interface, you're doing it wrong. In every instance of incorrect actions occurring, it has always been a result of me clicking on the wrong spot. Zooming in always fixes this. The only issue I have with the interface is the labels sometimes get in the way. Rotating/zooming usually fixes this. I have never had a probe zoom anywhere I didn't tell it to. Hell most systems aren't even as big as the jumps you describe. Perhaps you should examine what you are doing to make it do that? Split-screen 2-D interface? Barf... This is the modern world. I like my 3-D rotating world. "When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.23 09:59:00 - [103] Originally by: Soldarius Wow. I've never seen so many people who don't know how to use the new system properly. I won't say my way is the best. <snip text wall> a. Why comment on the old system if you dont know it? b. Dark glass and shadow of spheres actually serve a purpose. They need to be changed but cant go. PS: Bring the comments on my screenshot and how you believe you can scan better and its all wrong - didnt have such a good laugh by ppl outing themselves as n00bs.
Wolfcheck Pack o' Wolves	Posted - 2010.08.23 10:03:00 - [104] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Soldarius Wow. I've never seen so many people who don't know how to use the new system properly. I won't say my way is the best. <snip text wall> a. Why comment on the old system if you dont know it? b. Dark glass and shadow of spheres actually serve a purpose. They need to be changed but cant go. PS: Bring the comments on my screenshot and how you believe you can scan better and its all wrong - didnt have such a good laugh by ppl outing themselves as n00bs. Cool story, bro. 1/10 as a troll attempt.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.23 10:06:00 - [105] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 23/08/2010 10:06:24 Unfortunately a text wall followed directly to a well thought out and good post. So here a quote from one of the few gems in this thread :) Originally by: Mizar Amatali <snip> OP makes it seems worse than it really is but actualy has made valid points. In old system scanning itself was boring and easy - but getting it done efficently required thinking and much work making probing BMs <snip> All you people who point out to "scan and wait" method as all there was to probing are plainly wrong. Aditionaly,in the old system skills did matter and equipement you used also did matter. Harder sites (DED 8/10 up) were AT THE limit <snip> So no old system was not only about waiting for scan to end up as before you had to put much work in it, surely it wasnt mindless. So actually getting better skills and sisters equipement allowed you acces to sites otherwise un-probale. So yes there is a lot of difference. Then there is issue with interface itself - as OP pointed out astro 5 allows you to probe 2 sites at a time - this is theory. In practice the interface makes it inefficent - your better of, in terms of time, scanning one site after another because the time (and pain) of setting 8 probes is not worth it. That is a real issue as UI does not allow you to use skills you trained. <snip> there are flaws in new system: 1. bad interface 2. too easy scaning 3 you can scan pretty much everything with medicore skills Of course you may disregard point 2 and maybe because i may be biased because of tons of people scanning out "my" sites <snip>
Mizar Amatali	Posted - 2010.08.23 11:16:00 - [106] Also as a side note this thread would surely use less hostility and less "me better than you" and "you dont get it argumrents" May people make valid points supporting both systems most seem to agree both systems were/are lacking. Whats to argue about. To people doing DS argument - sure you are right but most systems can be covered with "normal" probes so whats the point ? This is a serious question not to troll or say "youre wrong stfu". Flame On
TheMahdi	Posted - 2010.08.23 11:30:00 - [107] Edited by: TheMahdi on 23/08/2010 11:32:32 Edited by: TheMahdi on 23/08/2010 11:31:31 Theres bigger problems with Exploration then the scanning system, thats the last thing that should be getting any attention. For example, 1) DED plexs are just so weak now, if they wanted to curb the ISK gain from infrastructure spwaned DEDs, why not just create seperate instances of those plexs - instead, they got lazy and nerfed all DED plexs even those rare few you find through normal exploration. Increase the rate of OPEs to what it was before, the rate of OPEs is so low now, when before you could get an OPE in every room and now you only guaranteed one in the last room. 2) The loot from Radars and Mags (for some factions) needs to be looked at. Personally, even just removing the dreaded "empty cans" and guaranteeing all cans yield something will go a long way. But personally I'd like to see much more consistent rate of T2 salvage. And much more consistent rate of decryptors from Radars. 3) Increase the rate at which unrated plexs spawn, so that real exploring actually has a good chance at faction spawns and escalations more regularly. If you could find twice as many unrated plexs as there is now, it would actually be worth it to explore as opposed to just run missions or anomalys in an upgraded system. The way it stands, exploration is a very low ISK/hr profession surpassed by almost everything else. I don't want it to be the best but atleast lets make 0.0 and low sec exploration compareble to other professions that have much less risk! Come on CCP, exploration is a great feature of EVE, it's the only interesting form of PvE where you can actually feel like your in a living universe.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.23 11:58:00 - [108] Originally by: Mizar Amatali To people doing DS argument - sure you are right but most systems can be covered with "normal" probes so whats the point ? This is a serious question not to troll or say "youre wrong stfu". The point is that unless the system is <20AU across, chances are that a normal probe will taint your results due to being too close to the potential hits. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Mizar Amatali	Posted - 2010.08.23 12:07:00 - [109] Tippia- right and why do you need less varied results achieved by weeker more distant probes (variables with lesser impact on the result) when you can get better and more accurate hits on first scan with normal probes ?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.23 12:15:00 - [110] Originally by: Mizar Amatali Tippia- right and why do you need less varied results achieved by weeker more distant probes (variables with lesser impact on the result) when you can get better and more accurate hits on first scan with normal probes ? Because you're not looking for "better" or "accurate" hits ù you're looking for normalised ones. Based on what you see, you can choose to hunt down the ones you're interested in or move on to a more valuable system. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki

Mizar Amatali	Posted - 2010.08.23 12:19:00 - [111] Ok seems everyone has a system of his own - thanks for the answer.
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.08.23 12:20:00 - [112] Like Tippia, I use the DSP to isolate what I want. I keep a notepad open ingame to track the hits, and as a reference. Means I can travel fast and find more sites. -G
Wolfcheck Pack o' Wolves	Posted - 2010.08.23 14:20:00 - [113] Originally by: Brannor McThife Like Tippia, I use the DSP to isolate what I want. I keep a notepad open ingame to track the hits, and as a reference. Means I can travel fast and find more sites. -G Ok must be stupid cuz I don't get the point in this and tippia's systems. You mean the hit "code" depends on how strong the signal is when you first find it? I don't really understand so if you can enlighten me that'd be appreciated. Also, Mizar: nice analysis. This topic, tho, has started and has been conducted by the OP as a "me better than you" rant. There has been a number of people trying to reason and discuss and they've been answered with petty name calling or ignored. All in all we'd be better moving to another topic and let this childish rant die. IMNERHO.
Celia Therone	Posted - 2010.08.23 19:20:00 - [114] Originally by: Wolfcheck Ok must be stupid cuz I don't get the point in this and tippia's systems. You mean the hit "code" depends on how strong the signal is when you first find it? I don't really understand so if you can enlighten me that'd be appreciated. Every site has an inherent signal strength. More difficult sites have a lower inherent strength, which makes them harder to scan down. What this means is that if your probe is far enough away from the site you can tell something about the site from the strength of the hit that you get on it. (If your probe gets close enough to a site then the proximity of the site results in an increase in its detected signal strength, that's why you want your probe to be pretty far away.) So if, say, you figure out that every site with a base strength of 0.14 is something that you aren't interested in doing (as a random example this might include haunted yard, large gneiss, ransacked serpentis demolished station, regional serpentis data mining, Celadon Nebula) then simply doing one scan with a deep space probe potentially allows you to decide that a system isn't worth scanning even if you get multiple hits. If you decide that you're only interested in sites with a base strength of 0.02 then you can rapidly discard most systems without having to spend an appreciable mount of time in them. Note that I don't actually do this myself under the new system so the above sites are random examples not actual values. I originally saw the mechanics under the old system, where you tended to spend a lot more time looking at signal strengths and because you didn't know how many sites were in a system (only their types) it could be pretty significant if you got a hit on a site with an unexpected signal strength. So, anyway, the idea is that you can cycle through a lot of systems very quickly looking for rare high isk sites and then hit the jackpot whereas the schlub that's scanning every site has just found a bunch of junk in the same amount of time. I suspect that most people that use this method trained Astrometrics V under the old system. You can approximate this method using regular core probes but you waste some time dropping more of them (depending on the system) and moving them around and possibly scanning a couple of times to get the same outcome.
Zilberfrid	Posted - 2010.08.23 19:56:00 - [115] I like the new probing system. I have not tried the old though. ------------------------------------- I like to fly around and shoot stuff.
Mizar Amatali	Posted - 2010.08.23 22:05:00 - [116] Celia nice write up - and yes its true in old system you knew what you are scaning on first hit. And that was because scanning itself was more time consuming so there was actually a reason to analyze more (ye im lazy bastard)to save up a reasonable quantity of time. Now i dont feel like it - im around 15 seconds away from knowing what kind of site it is anyway - im not sure that looking it up by sig str takes less time. Flame On
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.23 23:00:00 - [117] Originally by: TheMahdi Theres bigger problems with Exploration then the scanning system, thats the last thing that should be getting any attention. Its not seperate, those are all connected. Originally by: TheMahdi For example, 1) DED plexs are just so weak now,... I disagree with your DED arguing since it is plain not true: - Every lowsec region has at least 1 high end and 2 low end DED plexes. In fact it is hard to avoid stumbling upon them. - Every nullsec region (except drones) has at least one high end DED (10/10) and 2 low end DED (6,7,8/10) plexes. - The effects in the low end rooms were crap compared to the rest. Except as for 5/10 + I personally didnt even bother to grab em. And even for 6/10 the effects are 17th and 18th tire - compared to what drops it doesnt matter. - DED plexes are scanned too easily, too fast with too low skill requirements. To make it worse: Some DED plexes are easy mode by now. Meaning that in one plex a whole room dps is gone, another plex apparently had its dps tuned down, my beloved Crimson Sentinel doesnt know when he wants to spam missiles and webbers and when not. Bottom line: its a mess with those DEDs and by far too easy. In case you need it easier, there is still mining Veldspar in Amarr... Originally by: TheMahdi 2) The loot from Radars and Mags (for some factions) needs to be looked at. Personally, even just removing the dreaded "empty cans" and guaranteeing all cans yield something will go a long way. But personally I'd like to see much more consistent rate of T2 salvage. And much more consistent rate of decryptors from Radars. I take your word on that one since I never bothered to compare factions 1 by 1 for Mag and Radar. Originally by: TheMahdi 3) Increase the rate at which unrated plexs spawn, so that real exploring actually has a good chance at faction spawns and escalations more regularly. If you could find twice as many unrated plexs as there is now, it would actually be worth it to explore as opposed to just run missions or anomalys in an upgraded system. It is worth it - I assume you are in nullsec? Seriously get a friend who is expert in exploration you definitly miss in one or several areas. Originally by: TheMahdi The way it stands, exploration is a very low ISK/hr profession surpassed by almost everything else. I don't want it to be the best but atleast lets make 0.0 and low sec exploration compareble to other professions that have much less risk! That statement holds true with exploration in low- and nullsec being too easy as it is now and therfore the market being flooded with stuff.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.24 07:07:00 - [118] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 24/08/2010 07:08:38 Originally by: Mizar Amatali im not sure that looking it up by sig str takes less time. Flame On Ohhhh yes it takes way less time. In a cov ops or similar you can do "fly-by-scanning". Meaning you can plot a course through a whole constellation or more and scan in the time it takes you to fly to the next gate. When you reach the next gate you already know if it is worth it scanning more in this system or not. Once you started it you will see that it is somehow like our good ol Multispec probe (not really but sometimes feels that way). Still this benefit is void if you run most signatures in a system (Radar, Mag, some Ladar and unknown) since in that case any group of sig strengths interests you (except 1.25+ %).
Killerjock	Posted - 2010.08.24 07:39:00 - [119] Originally by: Celia Therone Every site has an inherent signal strength. <snip> Makes perfect sense. Thanks. I had not thought of making a DB (probably cuz my scanning skills AND ship bonuses kept changing while I trained thus making it kinda pointless) but this is about the same approach i used... and that everyone used I assume. Quote: You can approximate this method using regular core probes but you waste some time dropping more of them (depending on the system) and moving them around and possibly scanning a couple of times to get the same outcome. Tippia's claim that this might be "contaminated" by a probe being too close to one sig has merit, tho.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.24 10:15:00 - [120] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 24/08/2010 10:16:06 Originally by: Killerjock Originally by: Celia Therone Every site has an inherent signal strength. <snip> Makes perfect sense. Thanks. I had not thought of making a DB (probably cuz my scanning skills AND ship bonuses kept changing while I trained thus making it kinda pointless) but this is about the same approach i used... and that everyone used I assume. Quote: You can approximate this method using regular core probes but you waste some time dropping more of them (depending on the system) and moving them around and possibly scanning a couple of times to get the same outcome. Tippia's claim that this might be "contaminated" by a probe being too close to one sig has merit, tho. Nice you learned something - my congratulations. Still this thread is not about you and learning probing. It would be kinda cool if you were constructive to the thread. Apart from that: None stops you from messaging your heros of this thread - ingame.

Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.08.24 11:44:00 - [121] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Nice you learned something - my congratulations. Still this thread is not about you and learning probing. It would be kinda cool if you were constructive to the thread. Apart from that: None stops you from messaging your heros of this thread - ingame. Oh quit your whining you old bitter grouch. Sheesh. Are forums just supposed to be for whining about what you (general) don't like about the game? How about, the posts above will make things easier now for other people wanting to know. Share the knowledge...ignore the old grouches... -G
Killerjock	Posted - 2010.08.24 12:14:00 - [122] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Nice you learned something - my congratulations. Still this thread is not about you and learning probing. It would be kinda cool if you were constructive to the thread. LOL. Beside astrometrics, you should try Forumite skill - you're blatantly lacking. This thread stopped being "yours" when you clicked "Post". So unless a moderator comes to tell me I'm off topic, you're just showing your usual lack of manners, arrogance, and stupidity. Get a grip, and as already mentioned, HTFU or GTFO. I still suggest GTFO. It's not like anyone will miss you or your tears. It's funny that the only times you answer me (I'm wolfcheck as well) is when I'm not addressing your points. When I am, you can't find anything to counter them so you just ignore them. You're such a bunch of fail you couldn't hit yourself with a stone.
Mizar Amatali	Posted - 2010.08.24 12:28:00 - [123] Edited by: Mizar Amatali on 24/08/2010 12:34:23 Edited by: Mizar Amatali on 24/08/2010 12:32:43 ^^ thats all for a "civil" thread - not that i seen one in my life.... And yes as i stated i scan whole constelations no matter what they conatin as no-use for me site can be other people dream - i dont have mining skills and dont care about mining but to some people large mercoxit arkonor bla bla bla is good. And under current system i dont see any real profits from doing a probe "drive-by" especilly since you decide - oh there is 9/10 possible - i want it you have to: 1. recollect probes 2. launch a new set (good luck since you are on null sec gate) 3. set a new set of probes 4. scan the site down As opposed to normal probes covering systems: 1. re set probes position 2. scan away Yes you may waste your time while normal probes borkd results makes you scan some stupid thing - but consider time loss taking into account how often youre results are wrong. Of course if you are hunting only for 10/10 then drive by is greatmethod (done it many times) but consider "you" own a region - wheres the rush ? Having said all that i just want to make clear - i dont use that method which of course dosent mean its not a very good method. I just want to say that unless you hunt for 10/10 and only them there is not much profit in it - and surely not enough to make you train astro 5 (unless for BO bridging heheh) Oh one more thing consider isk/h on only 10/10 sites (limited supply) and running everything (almost infinite supply. The other thing its not possible t reliably scan out all 10/10 in region before ANYONE else does. Oh heres another one - consider chances for escalation doing 10 sites opposed to doing 1-2 of them. Flame ON
Ankbar	Posted - 2010.08.24 12:56:00 - [124] Originally by: Mizar Amatali {...}but consider "you" own a region - wheres the rush? Oh, easy: You don't have the time. Frequently when I have time to play, I either have the time to only scan the systems in my little scanning area, or scan one or two systems(depending on # of sigs) and run them.
Ankbar	Posted - 2010.08.24 13:00:00 - [125] Originally by: Elena Vherokia {...}{20th venom-filled post}{...} Elena, you are not blunt. You are mean. There is a huge difference between not sugar-coating your statements(being blunt) and using derogatory language(what you do.) You deserve to be ignored. I'm starting now.
Mizar Amatali	Posted - 2010.08.24 13:35:00 - [126] Edited by: Mizar Amatali on 24/08/2010 13:35:51 Ankbar - time is an issue not resolved by in-game mechanics :) But you are, right if you got like 30 min at a time best to try to get best site there is. Only i got a feeling that you may end up with pretty much nothing as oposed to doing closest radar (terrible sites ) and get your 40 mil in that 30 minutes no problem. Anyway due to how much people recomend (almost stating "the only good way to probe") ill look into DSP again as soon as i get some time for it.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.24 15:50:00 - [127] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 24/08/2010 15:50:26 Originally by: Ankbar Originally by: Elena Vherokia {...}{20th venom-filled post}{...} Elena, you are not blunt. You are mean. There is a huge difference between not sugar-coating your statements(being blunt) and using derogatory language(what you do.) You deserve to be ignored. I'm starting now. Another boi into lecturing manners, while trying to sound intelligent :) Yes I am blunt to liars and additionally I am mean to morons aka ppl bsing on forums. Bsing as in telling about stuff they dont really know about. If you cant stand the truth, you are best off to ignore me and no matter how important you deem yourself in your greatness: I couldnt care less. So please ignore me
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.24 16:07:00 - [128] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Another boi into lecturing manners, while trying to sound intelligent :) Better that, than trolling without a hint of knowledge, while trying to make arguments based on experience. Your manners is what betrays you. Quote: Yes I am blunt to liars and additionally I am mean to morons aka ppl bsing on forums. Bsing as in telling about stuff they dont really know about. You scream at yourself a lot, don't you? After all, you've been bs:ing your arse off around here. And you certainly aren't here for an argument since anything not strictly adhering to your POV gets met with abuse. Quote: If you cant stand the truth, you are best off to ignore me Maybe if you started to actually say true things rather than trolling everyone, ignoring questions, calling people names, and generally make noise about things you don't know anything about, people would be more prone to ignoring you rather than setting you straight. Of course, seeing as how you are impervious to teaching and to reasoning, people are ignoring you for that reason instead. Quote: I couldnt care less. So please ignore me You're a troll. Of course you care. That's the entire reason this thread exists. àbtw, you still have left a couple of questions unanswered. Would you care to get to work on those, or will you go for the personal abuse instead? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.24 16:44:00 - [129] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 24/08/2010 16:45:48 Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 24/08/2010 16:44:55 Originally by: Tippia <snip text wall> Its easier to post what others say about you: Originally by: DeMichael Crimson Originally by: Tippia Originally by: KiLLeR21 Especially in Motsu. Found your problem. Quote: Now to be... <snip> Amazing, starts off being ok and helpful and then turns into a total ass troll. It seems this happens most of the time. There is a pattern with you and you wonder why I dont take you serious ?
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.24 16:47:00 - [130] Originally by: Killerjock It's funny that the only times you answer me (I'm wolfcheck as well) is when I'm not addressing your points. When I am, you can't find anything to counter them so you just ignore them. We just heard something about "sugar-coating" answers... There is a reason I didnt answer you, maybe we can see why: Originally by: Wolfcheck It's pretty easy to perceive oneself as the only one who "gets it" if you claim that the simple fact of thinking differently means "wanting it easy". Quote: Its not about wanting it easier than before. It actually is right now easier than before: much more easier. Even if you dont trust in my judgement here, which you obviously dont, there are some posts of others who state exactly that. Actually people (btw: including me with my non-alt-characters) who wrote guides and tutorials for others about exploration state exactly that. Originally by: Wolfcheck I haven't used the old system, but the simple fact that a vast majority of people NOW use it that did not before defines it as "better". So basically you are telling me: if 1,000 Lemmings jump down the cliff, when it were 100 before - it is now better? Calm down, think a second since it is exactly what you told in above statement. You plain verified that it is easier (the system? scanning sites? finding high-value-items? - which part?) not if it is better. The part "I haven't used the old system" (quotation of yours) makes it obvious that any opinion of yours in 'improving an old system' vs 'making a new one' or 'difficult' vs 'easy' lacks experience in at last 50% of what we are talkign about. Originally by: Wolfcheck So now, if Deadspace stuff were lying in piles in jita, then prices would've dropped crazily. Yet I still see I can't afford to deadspace fit my ship, no matter what. In all due respect you apparently didnt check Jita prices on a steady basis. Prices actually dropped drastically the past few weeks. Drastically means: pricing dropped by 30-90% for pirate faction drop items and Deadspace items. There actually are piles of stuff (faction and deadspace) in Jita. Originally by: Wolfcheck So, you basically take out half or more of the scanning system and say the other half is stupid. You say you don't care about 10/10 sites, and you don't care about WH, and thus the system is broken. I am sorry and strongly advise you to read my post again. Just to clarify: 'This post specifically is not aimed at WHs sites, where I have no additinal experience.' It says somethign along the line: I lack the experience to judge in this regard. If it is broken there or not - this I cant tell. Originally by: Wolfcheck Yet you of course ignored at least one post that highlighted your total inability to understand logic, and proceeded to troll and call names, which is exactly the behaviour that one would expect given your answers in this thread. Originally by: Elena Vherokia a. it might be hard to see for you, but it actually is clicked (you see the grey underline color of the hits?) - the hit is close to those 4 spheres together. Actually both hits are app. 15 pixels above the middle sphere. If you clicked ONE it would've been highlighted. Ok and from this on it just becomes ridicolous. Simply if you look at the screenshot you will see that both hits of the same sig are clicked as in highlighted. I strongly adivse you to look again. Seriously take a second look. Even though I got all other of your points here to comment - sorry I wont since no matter how much good will I have I cant see any valid argument of yours. Anything you posted be it about Jita prices, the screenshot, 'easy', the 'old system',... anything you plain lack substance in your posts. I truly hope that you add some substantial argument and will gladly answer you as soon as you do. Yours Elena Vherokia.

SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.24 17:02:00 - [131] I can't believe you lot are still indulging this numpty. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.24 17:05:00 - [132] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey I can't believe you lot are still indulging this numpty. They got issues digesting and lack your help.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.24 17:16:00 - [133] ------------------------ Back to basics The following points turned out: 1. The new system makes it easier to scan sites than before. Actually a lot easier as well as faster. 2. The new UI is clumsy and in dire need of change. 3. The UI renders advantages by skill useless (example: 8 probes should be usable for scanning two sites at once but dont since the UI is too clumsy to use them). Thats somethign all agreed on. Back to my question: Why oh why? Or in other words @CCP: Could you please stay with one system now and put your effort into improving it instead of simply changing one? The new system killed: anti-probe-PvP, familiarity (home-advantage) of pre-scanned systems and a lot more. a.) please find a way to reintroduce those aspects into the current system (which you removed without reason). b.) make the UI less clumsy c.) make it possible that one can use high-end skill advantages (eg. 8 spheres) d.) make it more difficult to scan high end sites and/or improve difficulty of retrieving items. e.) ...
Killerjock	Posted - 2010.08.24 17:39:00 - [134] Edited by: Killerjock on 24/08/2010 17:45:58 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Its not about wanting it easier than before. It actually is right now easier than before: much more easier. Even if you dont trust in my judgement here, which you obviously dont, there are some posts of others who state exactly that. Actually people (btw: including me with my non-alt-characters) who wrote guides and tutorials for others about exploration state exactly that. I never said it wasn't easier. In fact I stated (you quote me below) that it does not matter if it is. If more people use it, then it's better than before. I can't say if it IS or ISN'T easier since, as you quoted, I never used the old system. Came to eve when it was already gone. OTOH, you DID say in your original post and many times since that "people who spoke so far are those who want it easy". So you DID say that, and it IS about ignoring arguments that you don't like. Quote: So basically you are telling me: if 1,000 Lemmings jump down the cliff, when it were 100 before - it is now better? Calm down, think a second since it is exactly what you told in above statement. Yes. If 1000 lemmings DECIDE to jump, and before they were only 100, the JUMPING COERCION system is better. There's no logically denying that. Of course, that doesn't mean the lemmings are better off - and I never claimed they are. Quote: Above verifies that it is easier now (the system? scanning sites? finding high-value-items? - which part?) not that it is better. Then define better. For me, the game mechanics are better when they are more ENJOYABLE. Since no one gets paid (afaik) for playing eve, then if more people use the system it means it's more enjoyable or causes less boredom/hurt/displeasure to them. So, by this definition, a more enjoyable system is better, and a system that is in widespread use is better. Quote: The part "I haven't used the old system" (quotation of yours) makes it obvious that any opinion of yours in 'improving an old system' vs 'making a new one' or 'difficult' vs 'easy' lacks experience in at last 50% of what we are talkign about. Never claimed otherwise. In fact, you might see I never commented on the old system. I don't need to. And the choice of improving vs making anew is not yours. It's CCP. They made one. Like it or not. Quote: There actually are piles of stuff (faction and deadspace) in Jita. Ok, I'll take your word here - much as I don't really trust you - cuz I didn't systematically check prices. So the prices dropped 90% in the last "few weeks". But this system is up since dominion, afaik. Or before even? That's more than 8 months ago. If that price trend was caused by the scanning system, and assuming the plummeting was linear as opposed to asyntothical as they usually are, then the current prices should be around 8 orders of magnitude lower than in december. A centus x-type large armor rep is on contracts for roughly 700 millions. That means it was between a billion and 7 billions a "few weeks ago"? It also means either faction large hybrid charges costed in the range 2.4 billions a piece, or you're misplacing the blame for the drop in prices. Quote: I am sorry and strongly advise you to read my post again. Just to clarify: 'This post specifically is not aimed at WHs sites, where I have no additinal experience.' It says somethign along the line: I lack the experience to judge in this regard. If it is broken there or not - this I cant tell. But others have told you. As much as I can only accept your word (and that of others) in the old system compartment, you have to accept theirs in the WH compartment. Only you don't. You just claim and claim and blather. Your only points on the new system are: - it's clumsy; - it's easy. Fine. Let's say you're right - I don't know if the old one was less clumsy, from what I heard in this thread from many others I'd say the new one is nicer - for the sake of the argument. Who cares?
Killerjock	Posted - 2010.08.24 17:48:00 - [135] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey I can't believe you lot are still indulging this numpty. My fault. Fixing it now.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.24 19:06:00 - [136] Originally by: Killerjock Quote: So basically you are telling me: if 1,000 Lemmings jump down the cliff, when it were 100 before - it is now better? Calm down, think a second since it is exactly what you told in above statement. Yes. If 1000 lemmings DECIDE to jump, and before they were only 100, the JUMPING COERCION system is better. There's no logically denying that. Denied - since this isnt logic :). Logic tells us only one thing: there must be a reason that 10x more Lemmings jump. Logic doesnt tell if it is better or worse. And here comes the "opinion"-part: - you tell: IT IS better this way! - And I say: From my experience it is only greed aka the risk vs reward relation is completly out of whack, which makes people jump on the bandwaggon. I believe it is the worst thing happening to the game: creating and keeping unbalanced risk vs reward aspects. Quote: Then define better. For me, the game mechanics are better when they are more ENJOYABLE. Since no one gets paid (afaik) <snip> Better: Risk/investment vs reward is balanced. It isnt right now. Originally by: Killerjock And the choice of improving vs making anew is not yours. It's CCP. They made one. Like it or not. The choice of asking: Why oh why did you decide that way is mine. Whats your point? Originally by: Killerjock So the prices dropped 90% in the last "few weeks". But this system is up since dominion, afaik. Or before even? <snip> Seriously: you claimed you are into arguing, yet you dont read or quote correctly. This time I assume it plain slipped you. So, my correct quote: "Drastically means: pricing dropped by 30-90% for pirate faction drop items and Deadspace items." Core X-Type Large Armor Repairer: 900Mill - 1.2 Bill before, cheapest right now in Jita 590 Mill Item Exchange. Thats a drop by 34.55% - 50.83%. So whats wrong about what I wrote? Your point? Originally by: Killerjock But others have told you. As much as I can only accept your word (and that of others) in the old system compartment, you have to accept theirs in the WH compartment. What are you actually talking about? There is nothing to accept, since it isnt connected at all. There are sites in WHs and there are sites in HiSec, LowSec and NullSec. Originally by: Killerjock Your only points on the new system are: - it's clumsy; - it's easy. No. Only, among other things I told its clumsy. For the rest please read - there are several summaries in this thread.
Lady Ayeipsia	Posted - 2010.08.24 19:32:00 - [137] Now I know the OP is not impressed by my skill set for probing, and seems to think it must be a high skill profession only. However, with my limited skill set, it took me over 2 hours to probe all sites in a Class 5 wormhole. This included 4 Ladar, 3 Radar, 3 Mag, and 4 other wormholes. This does not include the huge number of cosmic anomalies that pop up easily. Given the nature of the old system, and that this Class 5 had static exits to Nul and a C3 WH, how long would the OP expect anyone to take to find a way out? The only way would either be to nul, or into the Class 3 on a regular basis, which in turn would then require time to probe down yet another exit, hopefully to a lower class wormhole or high sec. The point is, yes in known space it may be easy. However, known space is not the only realm we probe in. Now either there has to be one system that covers both situations, and one side will be lopsided, or you would need 2 seperate probing systems. As for the disability aspect, there are monitors made for the colorblind. If you had that disability, you might want to look into such, as it would work for all games, not just EVE.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.24 20:09:00 - [138] Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia Now I know the OP is not impressed by my skill set for probing, and seems to think it must be a high skill profession only. However, with my limited skill set, it took me over 2 hours to probe all sites in a Class 5 wormhole. This included 4 Ladar, 3 Radar, 3 Mag, and 4 other wormholes. This does not include the huge number of cosmic anomalies that pop up easily. Given the nature of the old system, and that this Class 5 had static exits to Nul and a C3 WH, how long would the OP expect anyone to take to find a way out? The only way would either be to nul, or into the Class 3 on a regular basis, which in turn would then require time to probe down yet another exit, hopefully to a lower class wormhole or high sec. <snip> What are you talking about? WH-sites and His-/Low-/NullSec-sites are not connected its that easy. If a site has a sig of .31 or .04 in lowsec wouldnt matter for WHs at all. Where is your problem? I dont see it. Also it hasnt been said that WHs are too easy - you tell: its ok, maybe too hard. Ooke, trust ya on that and? Where is you issue? What gives? What does it change for Hi-Low-NullSec scanning?
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.24 21:35:00 - [139] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 24/08/2010 21:35:06 As for the disability aspect, there are monitors made for the colorblind. If you had that disability, you might want to look into such, as it would work for all games, not just EVE. Just in answer to the purpose of your post: yes, I am not impressed by your skills. Now thanks to your advice we luckily got a screenshot of probing in progress to verify your hint: This screenshot shows a probing in progress, where the spheres ( previous Trolls please dont read) just have been resized; the hits are highlighted in the list. As such one should see the 50% transparent round "hit icons" of the same site. Additionally one sphere has been set to lowest size to be placed exactly on the spot where the prober is sure to find the hit. I assume - thx to your advice - you can see those two hit points/circles at once?
Celia Therone	Posted - 2010.08.25 01:37:00 - [140] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Now thanks to your advice we luckily got a screenshot of probing in progress to verify your hint: This screenshot shows a probing in progress, where the spheres just have been resized; the hits are highlighted in the list. As such one should see the 50% transparent round "hit icons" of the same site. Additionally one sphere has been set to lowest size to be placed exactly on the spot where the prober is sure to find the hit. I'm not sure exactly what the question is here. I can see 2 faint site hits one atop the other... They're above the leftmost probe - about as much above the top of the scan sphere as the radius of the sphere less a smidgen and slightly offset to the right. They are faint because they are not inside a probe bubble. I agree that there are too hard to see for general usage and that you're really fighting the interface at times rather than playing with it. However if you drag one probe's bubble out then it will highlight the hit and it isn't too hard to see them so it is functionally usable.

Namdor Amarr Suicide Bomber INC	Posted - 2010.08.25 01:47:00 - [141] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 24/08/2010 21:35:06 As for the disability aspect, there are monitors made for the colorblind. If you had that disability, you might want to look into such, as it would work for all games, not just EVE. Just in answer to the purpose of your post: yes, I am not impressed by your skills. Now thanks to your advice we luckily got a screenshot of probing in progress to verify your hint: This screenshot shows a probing in progress, where the spheres ( previous Trolls please dont read) just have been resized; the hits are highlighted in the list. As such one should see the 50% transparent round "hit icons" of the same site. Additionally one sphere has been set to lowest size to be placed exactly on the spot where the prober is sure to find the hit. I assume - thx to your advice - you can see those two hit points/circles at once? That you've managed to obscure the hit points by means of intentional, willful stupidity isn't as compelling as you might think. I've done a metric ****-ton of scanning and I have never - not once! - had even the slightest bit of difficulty locating the icons.
Mr Moris	Posted - 2010.08.25 03:04:00 - [142] God damnit! I go on vacation, come back, and space travel is all easy mode. Warp to 0?! What is this crap. It doesn't take skill to travel now. Anyone can do it. Sure, there were problems: camps, slow ships etc, but they could have fixed those without recreating the wheel. This is gonna totally ruin the player economy. There must be hundreds, maybe thousands of players making their isk off selling stargate bookmarks and now all that work is for naught. Why couldn't we keep the old system? Smart people could travel fine and the dumb would die like they're supposed to. I want answers! (Old scanning system was total **e. New scanning system is a mini-game, also e. So what? Even if everyone agreed with you [Elena Vherokia] they are not turning back the clocks and yanking the system. Won't happen. Why not * about the sky being blue or asparagus making your ** green? It'll have the same effect.) 5/10 troll, lots of butt hurt.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.25 18:48:00 - [143] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 25/08/2010 18:48:24 Originally by: Namdor That you've managed to obscure the hit points by means of intentional, willful stupidity isn't as compelling as you might think. I've done a metric **-ton of scanning and I have never - not once! - had even the slightest bit of difficulty locating the icons. Why are you bull**ting people? If you went out scannign you had the same occur to you by times. With 8 probes and several hits you simply cant avoid to have hits outside spheres sometimes when you resize spheres. Similar to some others it is safe to assume that you lack experience and/or skill in exploration. If you actually knew what you are talkign about, you would know how much of an issue it is - Mr ForumWarrior. kthxbye Elena Vherokia
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:01:00 - [144] Originally by: Celia Therone I agree that there are too hard to see for general usage and that you're really fighting the interface at times rather than playing with it. That is part of the argument we got here. Originally by: Celia Therone However if you drag one probe's bubble out then it will highlight the hit and it isn't too hard to see them so it is functionally usable. At first sight you are right with this advice. On second actually - not. Why? - In above screenshot we got one site with two hits on it: your statement applies and thats actually how I made it from then on (which I consider stupid - being forced by the interface) - The past few days I had solar systems with 16+ sites in interesting sig ranges for me (yes, all sites together must have been 20-30 total in that system when I entered). With that many sites you are plain unable to handle it correctly: it doesnt work anymore. Hence I say: the interface is clumsy. In fact things like this (among MANY others: sphere movement, solar plane adjustment by sphere shadows, spheres jetting away,...) is the reason why I consider the change so bad. Which makes it worse is that the same signature as before can be scanned with less skill of the toon. Bottom line: an extremly bad interface and a game balance change for the worse has been sold by CCP as an "improvement". All that together sucks donkey balls apart from Forum warriors posting who dont know still what we are talking about here :/ Elena Vherokia PS: seriously, considering how hard it is to see in the screenshot - non can be serious to tell that it is ok this way.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:05:00 - [145] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Similar to some others it is safe to assume that you lack experience and/or skill in exploration. If you actually knew what you are talkign about, you would know how much of an issue it is - Mr ForumWarrior. kthxbye Elena Vherokia So basically, you want us to accept that you - the whiny cry-bear who has apparently been reduced to a weepy, fetal mass by the complexity of finding little dots - are a peerless expert at scanning, while everyone else - especially those who don't struggle with the system at all - are completely inept and don't know what they are talking about? --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:14:00 - [146] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey So basically, you want us to accept that you - the whiny cry-bear who has apparently been reduced to a weepy, fetal mass by the complexity of finding little dots - are a peerless expert at scanning, while everyone else - especially those who don't struggle with the system at all - are completely inept and don't know what they are talking about? Nope I am sayign that those who dont struggle definitly lack experience :) Not hard - if need be and you need somethign to Troll on, I will gladly repeat it for you ^_^ Elena
Celia Therone	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:17:00 - [147] Originally by: Elena Vherokia - The past few days I had solar systems with 16+ sites in interesting sig ranges for me (yes, all sites together must have been 20-30 total in that system when I entered). With that many sites you are plain unable to handle it correctly: it doesnt work anymore. Use the ignore site feature to reduce the number of hits to something you find easier to manage then un-ignore them once you've scanned a few to 100%. Although, having scanned systems with more cosmic signatures in than would fit on the screen (50+ iirc) there's something to be said for setting your probes up in formation with a range of 2au or so and moving through the central planets. You often get quite a few 100% hits that way. And once you have a 100% hit you can temporarily tell the interface to ignore it to remove the clutter.
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:47:00 - [148] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: SurrenderMonkey So basically, you want us to accept that you - the whiny cry-bear who has apparently been reduced to a weepy, fetal mass by the complexity of finding little dots - are a peerless expert at scanning, while everyone else - especially those who don't struggle with the system at all - are completely inept and don't know what they are talking about? Nope I am sayign that those who dont struggle definitly lack experience :) Have you considered the possibility that it's just you? --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Una Achura	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:59:00 - [149] Step 1: Place probes, scan. Step 2: Look at the hits (guaranteed to be highlighted, yay!), move your probes to the next configuration. Step 3: Resize the bubbles. step 4: Step 5: Profit! You seem to have mistaken the order of 2 and 3...
Xessej	Posted - 2010.08.26 00:36:00 - [150] Originally by: Elena Vherokia - The past few days I had solar systems with 16+ sites in interesting sig ranges for me (yes, all sites together must have been 20-30 total in that system when I entered). With that many sites you are plain unable to handle it correctly: it doesnt work anymore. Been living in wspace since Apocrypha came out, was an explorer under old system. Have had to scan down every sig in a system with 20+ sigs. It's possible using the present system, takes at most 5 minutes per site if I'm chatting or on the phone. Under the old system scanning even 15 sites down would take many hours and many probes. Leaving much less time to actually do stuff. No reasonable comparison is possible. The new systems shortcomings are inconsequential compared to the massive fail of the old system.

Ankbar	Posted - 2010.08.26 13:00:00 - [151] Originally by: Xessej Been living in wspace since Apocrypha came out, was an explorer under old system. Have had to scan down every sig in a system with 20+ sigs. It's possible using the present system, takes at most 5 minutes per site if I'm chatting or on the phone. Under the old system scanning even 15 sites down would take many hours and many probes. Leaving much less time to actually do stuff. No reasonable comparison is possible. The new systems shortcomings are inconsequential compared to the massive fail of the old system. But since you don't agree with the OP, obviously you don't know what you are talking about, and all that experience you claim to have must have been dreamed.
Ankbar	Posted - 2010.08.26 13:03:00 - [152] Edited by: Ankbar on 26/08/2010 13:03:25 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Namdor That you've managed to obscure the hit points by means of intentional, willful stupidity isn't as compelling as you might think. I've done a metric **-ton of scanning and I have never - not once! - had even the slightest bit of difficulty locating the icons. Why are you bull*ting people? It seems to me that the OP is confusing whether or not something has happened and if another person had difficulty* with it. And thus calls BS.
Dark Ionix United Miners Inc. Wrath.	Posted - 2010.08.27 21:31:00 - [153] Originally by: Spineker CCP basically made it a waste to have trained up skills and knowledge. What they did if we wanted to compare is take away all the work and level the field to a brainless level it would be the same as making the skills needed to build T2 Battleships something I could learn by next monday and be in production by tuesday. Or just train up capital ships over the weekend and fly a carrier next week. They screwed the people who worked hard. I don't want a level playing field I want to work for the things that are fun. If they are going to start using "fairness" as a guage than count me out. Good.. get lost! One less elitist douchbag in Eve as far as I'm concerned.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.28 08:15:00 - [154] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 28/08/2010 08:15:50 Originally by: Ankbar Edited by: Ankbar on 26/08/2010 13:03:25 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Namdor That you've managed to obscure the hit points by means of intentional, willful stupidity isn't as compelling as you might think. I've done a metric **-ton of scanning and I have never - not once! - had even the slightest bit of difficulty locating the icons. Why are you bull*ting people? It seems to me that the OP is confusing whether or not something has happened and if another person had difficulty* with it. And thus calls BS. The word constructive evaded you "slightly" just because you feel "hurt"? There are several people agreeign to the clusminess of the itnerface as is and its shortcommings. And despite to you and others I dont need alt posts. Have at thee. Elena
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.28 08:28:00 - [155] Originally by: Dark Ionix Originally by: Spineker CCP basically made it a waste to have trained up skills and knowledge. What they did if we wanted to compare is take away all the work and level the field to a brainless level it would be the same as making the skills needed to build T2 Battleships something I could learn by next monday and be in production by tuesday. Or just train up capital ships over the weekend and fly a carrier next week. They screwed the people who worked hard. I don't want a level playing field I want to work for the things that are fun. If they are going to start using "fairness" as a guage than count me out. Good.. get lost! One less elitist douchbag in Eve as far as I'm concerned. Id say one more moron identified aka a forum warrior who doesnt excel in reading previous posts by others - quoted right above this sentence.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.28 08:35:00 - [156] Originally by: Celia Therone Originally by: Elena Vherokia - The past few days I had solar systems with 16+ sites in interesting sig ranges for me (yes, all sites together must have been 20-30 total in that system when I entered). With that many sites you are plain unable to handle it correctly: it doesnt work anymore. Use the ignore site feature to reduce the number of hits to something you find easier to manage then un-ignore them once you've scanned a few to 100%. Lets see on your advice: 1. To me: I ignore a site once its done or definitly uninteresting 2. In case you ignore sites beforehand to reduce the clutter it would require you to note them down beforehand or scan all sites to 100%, bm them and then rescan on the bm. Seriously on that advice I dont have the impression it is smart way to do it or less "problemati" - not at all; even more clumsy than now. Still thats my impression so far - please tell if I missed something. Originally by: Celia Therone Although, having scanned systems with more cosmic signatures in than would fit on the screen (50+ iirc) there's something to be said for setting your probes up in formation with a range of 2au or so and moving through the central planets. You often get quite a few 100% hits that way. And once you have a 100% hit you can temporarily tell the interface to ignore it to remove the clutter. Definitly a nice option for systems with planets close to the star and a lot of sigs.
GURISTA SHEWOLF Caldari	Posted - 2010.08.29 11:26:00 - [157] i love the current system !
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.30 12:20:00 - [158] Originally by: GURISTA SHEWOLF i love the current system ! Its: 1. too easy to find stuff 2. too clumsy Do you consider it easy to use (aka grabbing/moving spheres/seeign things/...)?
Wolfcheck Pack o' Wolves	Posted - 2010.08.30 12:23:00 - [159] Originally by: Elena Vherokia There are several people agreeign to the clusminess of the itnerface as is and its shortcommings. And despite to you and others I dont need alt posts. Yet most of them agree that the new system is better than the old nonetheless. Of course, that's lost to you cuz you know better.
Ankbar	Posted - 2010.08.30 13:02:00 - [160] Originally by: Elena Vherokia There are several people agreeign to the clusminess of the itnerface as is and its shortcommings. What Wolfcheck said. Originally by: Elena Vherokia And despite to you and others I dont need alt posts. Have at thee. 1 - Grammer and spelling FTW. 2 - I'd love to bet you a Paladin your baseless accusation about me posting with an alt is wrong. You up for supporting your accusations with fact? Cause I pay the bill and play the game, I'm pretty sure I know whether or not I even have an alt, much less post with it.

Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.30 14:53:00 - [161] Originally by: Wolfcheck Originally by: Elena Vherokia There are several people agreeign to the clusminess of the itnerface as is and its shortcommings. And despite to you and others I dont need alt posts. Yet most of them agree that the new system is better than the old nonetheless. Of course, that's lost to you cuz you know better. Of course says the one who posts with 2+ alts to make a point because by words he cant ^_^ You, who additionally proved by all comments that you dotn have indepth experience of exploration, which makes your poitns/arguments just that: not so indepth.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.30 14:59:00 - [162] Originally by: Ankbar 1 - Grammer and spelling FTW. Seriously? How about grammar school for you?
Ankbar	Posted - 2010.08.30 16:07:00 - [163] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Ankbar 1 - Grammer and spelling FTW. Seriously? How about grammar school for you? lol, that's hilarious. Touche'. Noticed that was the only part you countered, though. Not the part where you are trying to defame the character of people you don't even know, claiming they are hiding behind alts when you have no clue whatsoever.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.30 16:15:00 - [164] Originally by: Ankbar Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Ankbar 1 - Grammer and spelling FTW. Seriously? How about grammar school for you? lol, that's hilarious. Touche'. Pardon? You Sir, need to learn to read, also between the lines. The need to shoot at another person's grammar and spelling (which was correct btw) just shows what sort of Troll you are. From your first few posts on I considered you a moron.
Captain Merkin Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.30 16:18:00 - [165] Personally I like the new system but it has what I would consider a learning curve to it, skills and good kit / sisters stuff really does help. I used to like the old system having spent a long time perfecting its use, it was a shock to me to have a new system when returning to eve that I had to get my head around. But having witnessed the beauty of rapid grid scanning and its ability to get those warp to sling before gate folks, and also being able to take get a lock on covert ops pilots to zero if running before they cloak, I find it great. Drag those bubbles around, get used to it and skill up a tad, its much nicer than before and doesnt take half a day to sort ;) Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981. The Kamikaze pilot
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.30 16:25:00 - [166] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 30/08/2010 16:25:32 Originally by: Captain Merkin Personally I like the new system but it has what I would consider a learning curve to it, skills and good kit / sisters stuff really does help. I used to like the old system having spent a long time perfecting its use, it was a shock to me to have a new system when returning to eve that I had to get my head around. But having witnessed the beauty of rapid grid scanning and its ability to get those warp to sling before gate folks, and also being able to take get a lock on covert ops pilots to zero if running before they cloak, I find it great. Drag those bubbles around, get used to it and skill up a tad, its much nicer than before and doesnt take half a day to sort ;) Hehe so far I agree with you except on 2 points: 1. its clumsy (yeah I repeat myself dragging them bubbles, scanning with 2 hits with 8 bubbles,...) 2. its too easy to scan sites - with lvl 3-4 skills and full equipment you can scan the hardest of sites, where before you barely could I wholeheartly disagree with that attitude of CCP: making it easier (to find sites - not the using "part" of the system) and selling it as a revamp.
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2010.08.30 22:19:00 - [167] I'd like to address a few issues presented here in no particular order. Perhaps some have already been discussed but I only read the first 3 pages and quite frankly the op's hostility really deters from the thread. 1. Lvl 3-4 skills should be sufficient for the majority of exploration sites. There is no reason someone should have to train max skills to be able to do something. Maxing skills are something you do for marginal gains, but a margin you capitalize on and prevail over other players with. The competition of exploration is 2-fold. Who can find the site faster and who can complete it first. I guarantee you the player with better skills (both player and in-game) will come out on top. 2. Astrometrics 5: It is a common mistake that this is a useless skill. Is it long? Absolutely. Is it worth it? Absolutely. Be creative. Look at how the system is setup in regards to signal strengths. Astrometrics 5 also gives you 8 probes. Use this to your advantage. I have posted on the usefulness of this skill and deep space probes quite a few times, feel free to look up my posts for more info. 3. I will agree that some of the higher tier sites are not hard enough to find. It is my personal belief that only a dedicated probe alt (lvl 4 skills + covert ops bonuses + gear) should be able to find the top tier stuff. Granted this can be mitigated by the use of a tengu or other T3. This is intended, otherwise why make the emergent locus analyzer on a combat capable ship? 4. I will agree that the simplicity of moving spheres around is...quite simple, when compared to the old system. However, it is much more engaging and much more rewarding. If you had experienced the old system (not sure if you did), it was a tedious task, one that few participated in. Sure this meant the spoils were greater, but why have such a potentially awesome part of the game rejected by a majority of your player base? The system had to be changed. 5. The new system is much easier to wade into for beginners. This is intended. However, there are quite a few tricks that can be utilized that take a bit more understanding of the mechanics and quite honestly more experience (a couple weeks is simply not enough). 6. As someone else pointed out, this system needed to be implemented to keep wormhole diggers from going insane. I can't even begin to describe how terrible the old system would have been with wormholes ::shudders:: Has k-space exploration become more competitive? Absolutely. Guess what? Its a pvp game. Competition with other players is pvp. Max your skills, get top tier equipment and implants, use a covert ops alt, and refine your practical probing skills. These are all options to get a leg up on your "average noob explorer." Last note to the op: chill out. Its a game. You have your opinion but frankly you are part of a small minority of the old guard. Most people accepted the changes quite easily (many with great cheer, me being among them). Just keep these things in mind and try to have fun. Exploration is easily one of the most fun and rewarding activities to do in Eve. Disclaimer: I participate in everything exploration (wh + kspace) and have been doing this crap for a pretty long time.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.31 13:16:00 - [168] Snipping a lil bit so it fits into the character limit. Originally by: XXSketchxx op's hostility I am really hostile towards people who lack experience. Some might not like it, I on the other hand see no point what this thread has to do with some lvl3 skill player who obviously didnt encoutner the interface often enough to remember what it looks like. Yes makes me hostile - flamed into oblivion. Originally by: XXSketchxx 1. Lvl 3-4 skills should be sufficient for the majority of exploration sites. There is no reason someone should have to train max skills to be able to do something. Maxing skills are something you do for marginal gains, but a margin you capitalize on and prevail over other players with. We think similar but with adjustments from my side: - lvl 3-4 skills should imho NOT be sufficient for high end sites in a given environment (hi-, low-, nullsec) - with lvl 4 skills and top-notch equipment one should be able to find all sites but high end should be difficult Thats the way it was and exactly that is what was changed also. I disagree to that change by CCP without telling. Originally by: XXSketchxx 2. Astrometrics 5: It is a common mistake that this is a useless skill. Astrometrics 5 also gives you 8 probes. "do all types of sites." Okay so the benefits of maximizing skills should be tailored to you? Seems like bad logic to me. Sorry please rethink your logic here. - before you could decide on a given difficulty (sig str) or a type (unknown, grav, radar,...) - now to take advantage of the DSP requires to decide on a sig str or on only one specific site Meaning if you eg go for unknowns in blood space you must now decide beforehand if you go for Monastery, Crimson hand, Minor Blood Annex, Blood Annex, Provisional Outpost,... since most of those have a different sig strength. Alternatively one is now forced to decide on a sig strength and to either do all sites in a sig str or scan whole regions into meaninglessness, which in itself is a grind too. This change was not asked for and is stupid. to be continued =>
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.31 13:29:00 - [169] Originally by: XXSketchxx 3. I will agree that some of the higher tier sites are not hard enough to find. It is my personal belief that only a dedicated probe alt (lvl 4 skills + covert ops bonuses + gear) should be able to find the top tier stuff. Granted this can be mitigated by the use of a tengu or other T3. This is intended, otherwise why make the emergent locus analyzer on a combat capable ship? It is unfortunately another issue which doesnt fit here: setup and makign of T3 vessels. Apart from that I 100% agree with you, except as outlined above: for a given region (hi-, low-, nullsec) Originally by: XXSketchxx 4. I will agree that the simplicity of moving spheres around is...quite simple and clumsy, when compared to the old system. However, it is much more engaging and much more rewarding. If you had experienced the old system (not sure if you did), it was a tedious task, one that few participated in. Sorry but having to create a few dozen bookmarks if not more to get proper probe locations was just stupid. Sure this meant the spoils were greater, but why have such a potentially awesome part of the game rejected by a majority of your player base? The system had to be changed. It is a common misinterpretation that I want the old system back. But introducing a new system brought more shortcommings than the old one hand. Thats what I oppose. Apart from that complexity was taken away (probe PvP, local advantages for scanners,...). We agree that changes were needed. Makign a new system is what I consider stupid. In return alot changed: for the sake fo a new feature (WHs) an existing profession was sacrificed and completly changed. The major change beign sites being too easy to scan. Originally by: XXSketchxx 5. The new system is much easier to wade into for beginners. This is intended. However, there are quite a few tricks that can be utilized that take a bit more understanding of the mechanics and quite honestly more experience You are missing the major point. Is it easier to understand? Yes. Is it easier to achieve more with less skills than before? Yes! The first I agree to, the latter I oppose! It is pointless to require less skill (trained on character) for the same site. That is what happened. Originally by: XXSketchxx 6. As someone else pointed out, this system needed to be implemented to keep wormhole diggers from going insane. I can't even begin to describe how terrible the old system would have been with wormholes ::shudders:: Not really adjustments - easily. Reducing scan time close to current value,... voilß. Mark me its options, its too late to roll back but exchanging shortcomings for shortcomings by making it anew is a bad design decision. Originally by: XXSketchxx Has k-space exploration become more competitive? Absolutely. Guess what? Its a pvp game. Competition with other players is pvp. Max your skills, get top tier equipment and implants, use a covert ops alt, and refine your practical probing skills. These are all options to get a leg up on your "average noob explorer." Please just stop to pull that card. I seriously doubt you can pass me in ingame character skills for exploration PvE or PVP-wise - 100% you can't, maybe come even. I liked your reply up to this point. Originally by: XXSketchxx Last note to the op: chill out. Its a game. You have your opinion but frankly you are part of a small minority of the old guard. Most people accepted the changes quite easily (many with great cheer, me being among them). Just keep these things in mind and try to have fun. Exploration is easily one of the most fun and rewarding activities to do in Eve. Ok so you dont have spheres jettign away when grabbign an arrow, you always feel good on resizing spheres and looking for hits, you never have a sphere radius move when you wanted to move a whole sphere,... (lots more)! Do you have it happen or not? And its ok?
Lady Ayeipsia	Posted - 2010.08.31 14:40:00 - [170] So it's still... long story short, the OP wants everything thier way, won't listen to anyone else, and still feels that the time they invested in the skills should be rewarded, while the rest of us who do not have skills up to the OP's level or higher, should get nothing. Thanks for playing!

Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.31 14:58:00 - [171] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 31/08/2010 15:01:27 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia So it's still... long story short, the OP wants everything thier way, won't listen to anyone else, and still feels that the time they invested in the skills should be rewarded, while the rest of us who do not have skills up to the OP's level or higher, should get nothing. Thanks for playing! This - I just can tell fools like that Aye wannabe-Lady from serious posters. Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: XXSketchxx op's hostility I am really hostile towards people who lack experience. Some might not like it, I on the other hand see no point what this thread has to do with some lvl3 skill player who obviously didnt encoutner the current interface often enough to remember what it looks like. Yes makes me hostile - flamed into oblivion.
Ankbar	Posted - 2010.08.31 16:03:00 - [172] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Ok so you dont have spheres jettign away when grabbign an arrow, you always feel good on resizing spheres and looking for hits, you never have a sphere radius move when you wanted to move a whole sphere,... (lots more)! Do you have it happen or not? And its ok? I had the jetting-sphere problem happen to me last week for the first time. It seemed to only happen because another program forced Windows to switch focus. When I came back to EVE the probes where acting as if I was still holding down on the mouse button, flying all over the place with each mouse movement. But this only happened once, and was not caused by EVE alone, but with interference from another program and likely the OS. I have never moved a sphere when I wanted to resize it, nor vice-versa. Any worry about resizing spheres comes from concern over my scan deviation stat and triangulation. Not the interface. When I learned I could grab the probes by the center block and move them in 2-dimensions at once, I loved it. But then I was finding that sometimes(~1 out of 20 moves)a probe had moved along the z-axis and threw off my scanning. But then I learned that grabbing the probe at the center axis could move it in the x-y, y-z, or x-z dimensions, not just 'left/right, up/down' by how I have my view oriented. I learned, I adjusted, now it rarely occurs anymore and when it does I am aware of it as it is happening. I have not experienced any other UI 'clumsy' anomolies. Yes, these are all okay. It is not that the UI is borked, I just had to learn how to use it. plink plink
Ankbar	Posted - 2010.08.31 16:10:00 - [173] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: XXSketchxx op's hostility I am really hostile towards people who lack experience. How do you judge someone else's experience with either the new or old system?
Daergaar Caldari Yama Seki	Posted - 2010.08.31 16:44:00 - [174] Originally by: XXSketchxx 3. I will agree that some of the higher tier sites are not hard enough to find. It is my personal belief that only a dedicated probe alt (lvl 4 skills + covert ops bonuses + gear) should be able to find the top tier stuff. Granted this can be mitigated by the use of a tengu or other T3. This is intended, otherwise why make the emergent locus analyzer on a combat capable ship? I completely disagree. You shouldn't need 2 accounts to play the game. Sorry, I just don't agree with having to pay for a separate account to enjoy the game. That doesn't mean I should be able to find a 10/10 DED site with a Core Probe Launcher I on a Drake (and, as far as I know, it's not possible anyways). But I SHOULD be able to find wormholes without too much trouble. The fact of the matter is that for people going into w-space, combat ships MUST be able to fit a probe launcher and scan down sigs without gimping their tank or dps to a meaningful degree. I do agree that 9/10 and 10/10 DED plexes should be hard to find and require a dedicated scanning ship and high enough scanning skills though. But you shouldn't need EVERYTHING to 5 (which probably means an alt). Level 4 should suffice, but if you have level 4 you should find it slower (which is currently the case).
TheMahdi	Posted - 2010.08.31 17:07:00 - [175] Why are >50% of the posts in this thread by the OP flaming and forcing his/her opinions down other peoples throats? I would say troll, and if so, 10/10 for effort. But probably just a somebody with a complex that thinks they are always right and everything is wrong no matter what they say. You have an opinion, great, so does everyone else. P.S. I love the new system!
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2010.08.31 18:59:00 - [176] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Please just stop to pull that card. I seriously doubt you can pass me in ingame character skills for exploration PvE or PVP-wise - 100% you can't, maybe come even. I liked your reply up to this point. If this is the case and you are so exceptional at probing, then why are you complaining about lower skilled players being able to find sites too? If your skills are truly good (both player and game) then you should have no problem 1. finding the site first and 2. completing it. Quote: Ok so you dont have spheres jettign away when grabbign an arrow, you always feel good on resizing spheres and looking for hits, you never have a sphere radius move when you wanted to move a whole sphere,... (lots more)! Do you have it happen or not? And its ok? No, this crap never happens to me. Maybe in the beginning when I was getting used to it but...after some refining you should become precise enough such that you don't do that anymore. Its a video game man, it requires some sort of coordination, believe it or not. Would you also complain that once in a while you miss shots in a first person shooter cause you miss clicked? While Eve may have great potential with spreadsheets, some minor mouse precision is required to play the game efficiently. What happens if you miss click a market order and put it up for a power 10 higher or lower? You going to blame the game? As for your remarks about hostility, grow up. It doesn't make you sound tough, cool, or solidify your arguments. In fact it does the opposite, undermining your thoughts at every step (even the valid ones). Originally by: Daergaar I completely disagree. You shouldn't need 2 accounts to play the game. Sorry, I just don't agree with having to pay for a separate account to enjoy the game. That doesn't mean I should be able to find a 10/10 DED site with a Core Probe Launcher I on a Drake (and, as far as I know, it's not possible anyways). But I SHOULD be able to find wormholes without too much trouble. The fact of the matter is that for people going into w-space, combat ships MUST be able to fit a probe launcher and scan down sigs without gimping their tank or dps to a meaningful degree. I do agree that 9/10 and 10/10 DED plexes should be hard to find and require a dedicated scanning ship and high enough scanning skills though. But you shouldn't need EVERYTHING to 5 (which probably means an alt). Level 4 should suffice, but if you have level 4 you should find it slower (which is currently the case). I pretty much agree with you, I think I just wasn't clear. When I said probing alt, I should have added "or have to reship." In other words, for higher tier sites, you should need a dedicated probing ship. Whether you have an alt fly this while your main sits ready in a combat ship, or you use your main to do both tasks and simply reship, that is your choice. I would like to emphasize though that it is an MMO. There are some things that a single "character" should not be able to do alone. 10/10 plexes are one such thing. I agree fully that no task should require strictly level 5 skills in an area to be effective. Anyone who says you should need Astrometrics rangefinding to lvl 5 to find the hardest sites is just a bitter elitist that probably trained the skill to that level pre-Apocrypha because back then, it was necessary. That sort of requirement is akin to saying you need Weapon specialization skills to lvl 5 to use T2 weapons. This is silly.
Daergaar Caldari Yama Seki	Posted - 2010.08.31 20:10:00 - [177] Edited by: Daergaar on 31/08/2010 20:10:48 Originally by: XXSketchxx I would like to emphasize though that it is an MMO. There are some things that a single "character" should not be able to do alone. 10/10 plexes are one such thing. I agree fully that no task should require strictly level 5 skills in an area to be effective. Anyone who says you should need Astrometrics rangefinding to lvl 5 to find the hardest sites is just a bitter elitist that probably trained the skill to that level pre-Apocrypha because back then, it was necessary. That sort of requirement is akin to saying you need Weapon specialization skills to lvl 5 to use T2 weapons. This is silly. I agree here. Since it's an MMO, 2 people or more should be required for a 10/10 plex or some of the harder sites. W-space is actually a great example of this. It's MAYBE possible to solo some C4 sites, but they usually need a small gang at least. C5 and C6 absolutely require a fleet or gang and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe what's needed is that the 10/01 DED sites should be harder combat-wise, about the same difficulty as a C5 sleeper site. Then it would be impossible to solo them no matter what, even with 2 accounts. The loot should increase accordingly. EDIT: And Astrometrics 5 still gives a benefit if you're a skilled player. A skilled player will be able to make use of their extra probes to scan down a site much faster than someone with Astro 4 or someone with Astro 5 who sucks at probing.
Aargolos	Posted - 2010.08.31 20:38:00 - [178] I sometimes find that when moving probes around they can be hard to see. It's pretty easy to move them vertically instead of horizontally because the arrows aren't entirely visible. A different color scheme would probably fix that easily enough. Alternately, reducing the scan radius to .5 or so when moving them around works--but adds more clicking.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.31 22:12:00 - [179] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 31/08/2010 22:11:48 Originally by: TheMahdi Why are >50% of the posts in this thread by the OP flaming and forcing his/her opinions down other peoples throats? I would say troll, and if so, 10/10 for effort. <snip> Its actually easy: you for example have been a well known Troll 2 years ago and still are. Why do you talk?
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.31 22:20:00 - [180] Originally by: XXSketchxx Originally by: Elena Vherokia Please just stop to pull that card. I seriously doubt you can pass me in ingame character skills for exploration PvE or PVP-wise - 100% you can't, maybe come even. I liked your reply up to this point. If this is the case and you are so exceptional at probing, then why are you complaining about lower skilled players being able to find sites too? If your skills are truly good (both player and game) then you should have no problem 1. finding the site first and 2. completing it. You could have just stopped pulling that card - couldnt you? Please tell if you dont like arguing. I never said: a. that I have a problem in finding a site b. that I have issues in finishing them c. I dont complain others find sites too Nowhere - simple as that. Why do you claim I did? My point: a. finding sites is definitly too easy, eg. piles of stuff in Jita being cheaper daily proove that point (high-end stuff, the best items in game) - pricing of those items dropped by 30-90% in rare cases even more (medium a-type shield transporter at 3m topped it off today). b. above point a. alone is no issue since more people get more stuff, which at first is good. Whereas in the long run it applies to the best ingame items and in return completly kills the player-run economy. That effect didnt kick off yet but will for sure if it stays that way and drop player-created item pricing too.

Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.31 22:31:00 - [181] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 31/08/2010 22:32:07 Originally by: XXSketchxx Quote: Ok so you dont have spheres jettign away when grabbign an arrow, you always feel good on resizing spheres and looking for hits, you never have a sphere radius move when you wanted to move a whole sphere,... (lots more)! Do you have it happen or not? And its ok? No, this crap never happens to me. Maybe in the beginning when I was getting used to it but...after some refining you should become precise enough such that you don't do that anymore. Its a video game man, it requires some sort of coordination, believe it or not. Would you also complain that once in a while you miss shots in a first person shooter cause you miss clicked? While Eve may have great potential with spreadsheets, some minor mouse precision is required to play the game efficiently. What happens if you miss click a market order and put it up for a power 10 higher or lower? You going to blame the game? You left me speechless - it looks like I will fraps a session about it. We can then discuss on such a fraps video. Without it it apparently becomes pointless. Originally by: XXSketchxx As for your remarks about hostility, grow up. It doesn't make you sound tough, cool, or solidify your arguments. In fact it does the opposite, undermining your thoughts at every step (even the valid ones). I make it easy for ya: if its brown, laying on the ground, warm and stinks - by then it got a name. If you have issues to argue with someone calling things by their name, then why call it a discussion or argument anyways? - Troll is a Troll (not difficult) - A thread about 100-400 mill/hour income answered by someone that "its unfair how PI-people earn so much isk of 300Mill/week..." makes this person a Troll. - People trying to deny valid arguments due to proper use of grammar or spelling makes those people - guess what? A Troll. - The list goes on... You might call it hostile, I call it bull**** detector.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.31 22:36:00 - [182] Originally by: XXSketchxx I agree fully that no task should require strictly level 5 skills in an area to be effective. Anyone who says you should need Astrometrics rangefinding to lvl 5 to find the hardest sites is just a bitter elitist that probably trained the skill to that level pre-Apocrypha because back then, it was necessary. That sort of requirement is akin to saying you need Weapon specialization skills to lvl 5 to use T2 weapons. This is silly. Then please elaborate on that one. My answer before was: 1. lvl 4 skill + top notch equipment needed or 2. lvl 5 skills with low end equipment needed for the high end sites. In no case should lvl 3 skills be sufficient for finding high end sites. Right now you do find all high end sites with lvl 3 skills and top notch equipment. Thats wrong.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.08.31 23:08:00 - [183] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 31/08/2010 23:10:46 Originally by: Daergaar Edited by: Daergaar on 31/08/2010 20:10:48 Originally by: XXSketchxx I would like to emphasize though that it is an MMO. There are some things that a single "character" should not be able to do alone. 10/10 plexes are one such thing. I agree fully that no task should require strictly level 5 skills in an area to be effective. Anyone who says you should need Astrometrics rangefinding to lvl 5 to find the hardest sites is just a bitter elitist that probably trained the skill to that level pre-Apocrypha because back then, it was necessary. That sort of requirement is akin to saying you need Weapon specialization skills to lvl 5 to use T2 weapons. This is silly. I agree here. Since it's an MMO, 2 people or more should be required for a 10/10 plex or some of the harder sites. W-space is actually a great example of this. It's MAYBE possible to solo some C4 sites, but they usually need a small gang at least. C5 and C6 absolutely require a fleet or gang and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe what's needed is that the 10/01 DED sites should be harder combat-wise, about the same difficulty as a C5 sleeper site. Then it would be impossible to solo them no matter what, even with 2 accounts. The loot should increase accordingly. The whole risk vs reward equation is out of line. Examples: 1. Mul-Zatah Monastery vs Provisional Blood Outpost (same loot in the end). Mul-Zatah is a 8 minute plex, last escalation of Provisional Outpost is a death trap (compared to Monastery) 2. Angel Annex vs. Angel Fortress - gimme a break! The boss in Angel Fortress is some crazy stuff, whereas Angel Annex is almost easy. Same loot... 3. Blood Annex vs Angel Annex - dont compare its laughable! Angel Annex = heavy dps vs a lot of resists; deathtrap. Blood Annex = 14 minute trip to Corpus C-type stuff, farming never was that easy. 4. Crimson Hand vs Minor Blood Annex - we shouldnt compare those, except they drop loot of similar quality! Only difference? Crimson Hand drops more reliably the loot which is worth more isks. Minor Blood Annex is a death trap incarnate until you learn to handle the triggers (standby for losses until you do). Whereas Crimson Hand (remember? Loot is more valuable here...),.. whereas Crimson Hand is 45 minutes of boredom only to see the Crimson Lord run away from his own men to be slughtered by the player. (Yes, I know some people with 2 accounts do it in almost 20 minutes). 5. Minor Angel Annex vs Minor Blood Annex - the only one where it seems to fit together, except Minor Blood Annex needs slightly more neut and dps on the 2nd and 3rd wave (in both rooms) to make it even... Gimme a break! Finding the sites and risk vs reward are plain out of whack here. It starts with scanning these sites being too easy (eg. "easy sites" should be more difficult to scan) and it doesnt stop with ships making exploration too easy (namely T3). A proper fit Tengu can run most sites and be invulnerable(TM) in nullsec even. Some sites are killers be it dp-wise or time-wise, where you need forever to kill the spawn or need to jet around half eve-verse to finish it. Compare that to their DED-counterparts... sorry, laughable. My bottom line: This deserves a seperate thread. invulnerable(TM) = 1. cant be affected by untargeted warp scrambling - check interdiction nullifier 2. cant be targeted at all as long as player got skill - check covert ops 3. can field a mean tank - check 500+ dp tank (and much more with DS stuff) with Cov Ops 4. can field some mean dps - check 500+ dps (and much more with DS stuff) with Cov Ops (we could run it similar for unprobeable Tengu, but am too tired for it)
Brannor McThife Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients	Posted - 2010.09.01 02:09:00 - [184] OMG. This whining STILL going on? Dear Lord. Everyone... please stop talking to Elena. Heck, I might just start a collection to add a prize for someone to gank & pod Elena repeatedly ingame... just to give him/her something else to whine about. This thread is nothing more than one person's rant at the game at anyone that has a different opinion. Seriously, move on, do not feed the troll more. -G
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 04:33:00 - [185] Originally by: Brannor McThife OMG. This whining STILL going on? Dear Lord. Everyone... please stop talking to Elena. Heck, I might just start a collection to add a prize for someone to gank & pod Elena repeatedly ingame... just to give him/her something else to whine about. This thread is nothing more than one person's rant at the game at anyone that has a different opinion. Seriously, move on, do not feed the troll more. -G Trolls talk or was it cutn paste from a website?
Ankbar	Posted - 2010.09.01 14:37:00 - [186] Originally by: Elena Vherokia In no case should lvl 3 skills be sufficient for finding high end sites. Right now you do find all high end sites with lvl 3 skills and top notch equipment. Thats wrong. I'm confused about this part. I had read other threads about scanning strength, and they had said that the strength needed to get all sites to 100% was either 96+ or 103+, I don't remember. Either way, I just got in EFT and put Sister Probe Launcher and Sister Probes in an Ananthema with III in Covert Ops and all the Astrometric <blank> skills. And I got 94.47(snip). IF the other threads were correct, this is not enough.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 14:46:00 - [187] Originally by: Ankbar Originally by: Elena Vherokia In no case should lvl 3 skills be sufficient for finding high end sites. Right now you do find all high end sites with lvl 3 skills and top notch equipment. Thats wrong. I'm confused about this part. I had read other threads about scanning strength, and they had said that the strength needed to get all sites to 100% was either 96+ or 103+, I don't remember. Either way, I just got in EFT and put Sister Probe Launcher and Sister Probes in an Ananthema with III in Covert Ops and all the Astrometric <blank> skills. And I got 94.47(snip). IF the other threads were correct, this is not enough. Above is a keyword highlighted. If you now add top notch equipment including implants you will see 139.07855 scan strength. That is by far enough for all sites.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 14:50:00 - [188] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 01/09/2010 14:50:17 And here a link to nice thread which lists how easy scanning is. Those few readers who didnt try to Troll here might realize how there are players who dont want their "easy life" taken away. Scanning sites is too easy - simple as that. By now I even add: even for WHs its too easy. PS: took me long to realize how much people know it is too easy but dont want their toy tweaked.
Ankbar	Posted - 2010.09.01 15:17:00 - [189] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Ankbar I'm confused about this part. I had read other threads about scanning strength, and they had said that the strength needed to get all sites to 100% was either 96+ or 103+, I don't remember. Either way, I just got in EFT and put Sister Probe Launcher and Sister Probes in an Ananthema with III in Covert Ops and all the Astrometric <blank> skills. And I got 94.47(snip). IF the other threads were correct, this is not enough. Above is a keyword highlighted. If you now add top notch equipment including implants you will see 139.07855 scan strength. That is by far enough for all sites. Ah, I didn't think of implants. So... Yes and No. I still got enough, but I come up with 103.92. Not sure how you got 130+, but 103+ is certainly enough.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 15:45:00 - [190] Originally by: Ankbar Ah, I didn't think of implants. So... Yes and No. I still got enough, but I come up with 103.92. Not sure how you got 130+, but 103+ is certainly enough. I have no idea how you made 103.92 when using all implants lvl 3 skills in all departments of exploration (incl. cov ops) + implants = 139.07855 scan strength on sister scan probes.

Ankbar	Posted - 2010.09.01 16:31:00 - [191] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Ankbar Ah, I didn't think of implants. So... Yes and No. I still got enough, but I come up with 103.92. Not sure how you got 130+, but 103+ is certainly enough. I have no idea how you made 103.92 when using all implants lvl 3 skills in all departments of exploration (incl. cov ops) + implants = 139.07855 scan strength on sister scan probes. All implants? What is there besides the Prospector PPH-2? Oh, just found the Virtue set. Understand now. TBH, though, to me, if someone wants to trade this amount of ISKies (for equip/implants) instead of time (training to V), that's okay with me. Two different kinds of investments, but they both took investments. Heck, you can blow up people's ships and pods, but you can't take away skill. (Well, as long as they have their clone updated.)
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 16:36:00 - [192] Originally by: Ankbar TBH, though, to me, if someone wants to trade this amount of ISKies (for equip/implants) instead of time (training to V), that's okay with me. Two different kinds of investments, but they both took investments. Heck, you can blow up people's ships and pods, but you can't take away skill. (Well, as long as they have their clone updated.) TBH not this way, more like this: 1. lvl4 skills plus top notch equipment = all sites, fine with me 2. lvl 5 skills + average equipment = all sites, fine with me 3. lvl 5 + top equipment = all sites easily, cool with me lvl 3 skills + equipment = expert doesnt exist in any other EvE skill, thats not ok.
Ankbar	Posted - 2010.09.01 17:06:00 - [193] Edited by: Ankbar on 01/09/2010 17:07:56 Originally by: Elena Vherokia PPS: the cost for a virtue set is what I make on a lucky evening, so its hardly a lot of isk. But as you have said, you are not a low-SP character, you've been around for a while. So you aren't having "lucky evening[s]" in the kind of places where a newb would be running. I doubt a newb--who is going to be buying ships, replacing ships, upgrading equipment, buying the heafty skill books, etc--is going to easily come up with this kind of ISK. I haven't looked at the cost of Virtues since I just realized they existed, so my guess may be wrong, but I'd be surprised if they were cheap. edit: and if they are cheap, I can't wait to log in!
Daergaar Caldari Yama Seki	Posted - 2010.09.01 17:10:00 - [194] When you're in a proper combat ship, you don't have the luxury of fitting probing implants, nor expanded probe launchers. Any sites that are possible to solo should be possible to scan down alone with a combat ship and not a probing ship. Non-soloable sites should require a probing ship. The actual difficulty of the sites is another discussion for another thread. Wormholes are not too easy to scan down. C5 and C6 wormholes are harder to scan down than C4 and below. I think that's just fine. If you're going into a C1 or C2, you're probably going in alone, thus you MUST fit a probe launcher. You'll be in a combat ship and won't be able to fit an expanded probe launcher without seriously gimping yourself, which you can't afford to do against sleepers. People who are newer to the game or have lower skills shouldn't be shut out from doing basic wormholes and up to 5/10 DED sites. I shouldn't have to invest in a Tengu to do that either, I should be able to do it in my Drake (which I currently can). I've been playing for 2 years and a bit, and I've only recently trained probing. It's a good thing for strictly combat pilots to be able to branch off and do other stuff without too much trouble.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.01 17:19:00 - [195] Originally by: Elena Vherokia PPS: the cost for a virtue set is what I make on a lucky evening, so its hardly a lot of isk. àand how much is that again? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 17:32:00 - [196] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elena Vherokia PPS: the cost for a virtue set is what I make on a lucky evening, so its hardly a lot of isk. àand how much is that again? I am sure the greedy aspect of yours already looked it up :D
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.01 17:32:00 - [197] Originally by: Elena Vherokia I am sure the greedy aspect of yours already looked it up :D I want the number from you. How much? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 17:39:00 - [198] Originally by: Daergaar When you're in a proper combat ship, you don't have the luxury of fitting probing implants, nor expanded probe launchers. Any sites that are possible to solo should be possible to scan down alone with a combat ship and not a probing ship. Non-soloable sites should require a probing ship. The actual difficulty of the sites is another discussion for another thread. Wormholes are not too easy to scan down. C5 and C6 wormholes are harder to scan down than C4 and below. I think that's just fine. If you're going into a C1 or C2, you're probably going in alone, thus you MUST fit a probe launcher. You'll be in a combat ship and won't be able to fit an expanded probe launcher without seriously gimping yourself, which you can't afford to do against sleepers. People who are newer to the game or have lower skills shouldn't be shut out from doing basic wormholes and up to 5/10 DED sites. I shouldn't have to invest in a Tengu to do that either, I should be able to do it in my Drake (which I currently can). I've been playing for 2 years and a bit, and I've only recently trained probing. It's a good thing for strictly combat pilots to be able to branch off and do other stuff without too much trouble. Your post is ambigious: 1. 6/10 sites are meant to not be soloable (stated by CCP) yet they can be easily scanned down by means of a non-bonused ship without implants in lowsec and even easier in nullsec (ofc). 2. People newer to the game should be shut out from 5/10 and upwards so we only disagree on the breakign point (5/10 or 6/10). Shut out aka by difficulty of the site itself. 3. Scanning sites is too easy :) I am aware I repeat myself. Lvl3 skills + top notch equipment in a non-combat ship scans everything; lvl3 skill + less than 1 Bill equipment scans almost anything;... Thats far off. Saying that an expanded probe launcher gimps a ship is simply not true: SOME ships are gimped by fitting an expanded probe launcher (eg Tengu or Legion or Proteus esspecially with sentry dmg aug :D) ; quite a lot of ships dont care for expanded probe launcher or not. Its not only the ships you fly - there are more ships.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 17:42:00 - [199] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elena Vherokia I am sure the greedy aspect of yours already looked it up :D I want the number from you. How much? I am sorry, I just suffer from heavy Amnesia (else I wouldnt even answer you ;) - we know each other better than you can imagine right now)
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.01 17:46:00 - [200] Originally by: Elena Vherokia I am sorry, I just suffer from heavy Amnesia (else I wouldnt even answer you ;) - we know each other better than you can imagine right now) What's the number? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki

Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 17:47:00 - [201] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elena Vherokia I am sorry, I just suffer from heavy Amnesia (else I wouldnt even answer you ;) - we know each other better than you can imagine right now) What's the number? am too shy, tell me hunny
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.01 17:49:00 - [202] Edited by: Tippia on 01/09/2010 17:49:33 Originally by: Elena Vherokia am too shy, tell me hunny So you're just lying. You just threw it out there to sound cool and 1337. In light of that: have you ever probed? In the old system or the new one? Sounds like a big "no" to meà So what are you whinging about? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 17:54:00 - [203] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 01/09/2010 17:55:01 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 01/09/2010 17:49:33 Originally by: Elena Vherokia am too shy, tell me hunny So you're just lying. You just threw it out there to sound cool and 1337. In light of that: have you ever probed? In the old system or the new one? Sounds like a big "no" to meà So what are you whinging about? Ohhh noes the lvl 3-4 exploration professional Tippia doubts that I can use contracts in EvE and read them. And now the Tippia Troll (eve search reveals more than 10 ops in different topics calling her that way)... and now Tippia doubts I can do exploration, because I didnt proove it to the Tippia Troll. I suggest: stop fapping, in your case it hurts your brain.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.01 17:58:00 - [204] Edited by: Tippia on 01/09/2010 17:58:56 Originally by: Elena Vherokia Ohhh noes the lvl 3-4 exploration professional Tippia doubts that I can use contracts in EvE and read them. Why would you want to use contracts? You don't have a clue, do youà Quote: And now the Tippia Troll (eve search reveals more than 10 ops in different topics calling her that way)... Because I prove their bull**** for what it is, and like you, they don't like it and hope that calling me a troll will make it aaaall go away and suddenly make their fantasies reality. It never happens. So: what's the price of a full virtue set? You should know this, seeing as how you can earn that in an eveningà àor is it that you know where this line of inquiry is going and you're afraid that it will expose something else you want to hide? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ankbar	Posted - 2010.09.01 19:05:00 - [205] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 01/09/2010 17:49:33 Originally by: Elena Vherokia am too shy, tell me hunny So you're just lying. You just threw it out there to sound cool and 1337. If you make a claim, be able and willing to back it up. Otherwise keep it to yourself. No better than a little elementary kid claiming to know something, and then when you ask them to reveal they say, "I'm not going to tell you!" Because in truth, they never knew, they only wanted to seem important/smart/etc. You have made statements which hinge on the cost of Virtues. What you may think is cheap someone else may think is expensive, or vice versa, so your subjective claim is insufficient. Provide a number to back your claim.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 19:09:00 - [206] Originally by: Ankbar Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 01/09/2010 17:49:33 Originally by: Elena Vherokia am too shy, tell me hunny So you're just lying. You just threw it out there to sound cool and 1337. If you make a claim, be able and willing to back it up. Otherwise keep it to yourself. No better than a little elementary kid claiming to know something, and then when you ask them to reveal they say, "I'm not going to tell you!" Because in truth, they never knew, they only wanted to seem important/smart/etc. You have made statements which hinge on the cost of Virtues. What you may think is cheap someone else may think is expensive, or vice versa, so your subjective claim is insufficient. Provide a number to back your claim. So whats your issue? That a lucky day of pro-exploration yields 2.5+ Bill on lucky evenings? Happens therefore the cost of virtue sets are not really an issue. Claiming it is just shows that there are peopel in this thread who dont know what I am posting about. Hence I call some Trolls, who still post and dont get it. Reality check.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.01 19:22:00 - [207] Edited by: Tippia on 01/09/2010 19:23:28 Originally by: Elena Vherokia So whats your issue? That, as mentioned all the back at the beginning, your complaint boils down to you wanting to protect your easy-mode, and is upset that you now have competition. I'll grant you that complaining about a new "easy mode" is a very clever way of arguing for the preservation of your own, but at least be honest about it. àoh, and if you believe that what you're doing still counts as "pro exploration" then, as also mentioned, you're not really all that tuned into the new realities of the game. The problem isn't the system ù it's with you being stuck in the past and thinking that nothing has changed. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 19:24:00 - [208] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elena Vherokia So whats your issue? That, as mentioned all the back at the beginning, your complaint boils down to you wanting to protect your easy-mode, and is upset that you now have competition. I'll grant you that complaining about a new "easy mode" is a very clever way of arguing for the preservation of your own, but at least be honest about it. Trolls make up arguments - hence why I call you a Troll. I say: its overall too easy. Its true so dont complain boi.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.01 19:29:00 - [209] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Trolls make up arguments If you say so, troll. Quote: I say: its overall too easy. àand the point you keep missing is: so what? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 19:36:00 - [210] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elena Vherokia Trolls make up arguments If you say so, troll. Quote: I say: its overall too easy. àand the point you keep missing is: so what? So what for you :) You maybe didnt realize: this thread never was about you. Hard for your ego I know.

SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2010.09.01 19:40:00 - [211] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elena Vherokia So whats your issue? That, as mentioned all the back at the beginning, your complaint boils down to you wanting to protect your easy-mode, and is upset that you now have competition. I'll grant you that complaining about a new "easy mode" is a very clever way of arguing for the preservation of your own, but at least be honest about it. Trolls make up arguments - hence why I call you a Troll. I say: its overall too easy. Its true so dont complain boi. Yes, we all know what your opinion is. What this thread has established is that nobody cares about your opinion. Repeating your opinion does not increase its value. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.01 19:43:00 - [212] Originally by: Elena Vherokia So what for you No. Just answer the question for once: so what? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ankbar	Posted - 2010.09.01 19:47:00 - [213] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elena Vherokia So what for you No. Just answer the question for once: so what? You sure don't like answering direct questions with facts, Elena.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 20:18:00 - [214] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Originally by: Elena Vherokia Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elena Vherokia So whats your issue? That, as mentioned all the back at the beginning, your complaint boils down to you wanting to protect your easy-mode, and is upset that you now have competition. I'll grant you that complaining about a new "easy mode" is a very clever way of arguing for the preservation of your own, but at least be honest about it. Trolls make up arguments - hence why I call you a Troll. I say: its overall too easy. Its true so dont complain boi. Yes, we all know what your opinion is. What this thread has established is that nobody cares about your opinion. Repeating your opinion does not increase its value. If you wouldnt care, you wouldnt post.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 20:21:00 - [215] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elena Vherokia So what for you No. Just answer the question for once: so what? I never answered any of your questions because "Tippia starts good but is just a Troll in the end". So what :) Before I forget: scannign is too easy.
TheMahdi	Posted - 2010.09.01 20:22:00 - [216] Originally by: Elena Vherokia If you wouldnt care, you wouldnt post. Obvious troll is obvious.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 20:27:00 - [217] Originally by: Ankbar You sure don't like answering direct questions with facts, Elena. I dont answer Tippia simply since Tippia is a Troll like app. 10 other ops already confirmed. Apart from that I neither value your opinion in regards to exploration as an experts statement nor in other regards out of game (the ones you raised). That wasnt a secret of the trade. You simply neglected to accept that its true - your choice not mine :)
Sendraks The Spice Weasels Must Flow	Posted - 2010.09.01 20:56:00 - [218] wonders if this thread should be renamed "Elena Vherokia's Troll Masterclass Because you're doing some epic trolling here Elena. I wonder how long you can keep it up?
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 20:59:00 - [219] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 01/09/2010 21:01:11 Originally by: Sendraks wonders if this thread should be renamed "Elena Vherokia's Troll Masterclass Because you're doing some epic trolling here Elena. I wonder how long you can keep it up? Flaming Trolls? Daily :) - never stops, I laughed about Tippia 2 years ago and I still do :) Apart from that Trolls never stop to amaze me with their stubborness. EDIT: and yes, I am aware you were looking for a "seemingly intelligent way" to call me a Troll - got enough of that kind in here so hush.
Sendraks The Spice Weasels Must Flow	Posted - 2010.09.01 21:09:00 - [220] I am impressed. Either you are a supreme troll or your levels of self denial about your behaviour are borderline psychotic.

Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 22:11:00 - [221] Originally by: Sendraks I am impressed. Either you are a supreme troll or your levels of self denial about your behaviour are borderline psychotic. Cant argue so need to be personal - you are a genius.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 23:44:00 - [222] Time for a short Troll summary: - Tippia makes nice isk with lvl3-4 skills and tries to derange this thread since Tippia is afraid to loose her coolness income stream. - Ankbar pulled the grammar and spelling card on a fine post, but failed to spell grammar correctly. Apart from that Ankbar has as much experience in exploration as Stavros was a PvE-Carebear (at least Ankbar now knows that Virtue implants exist). - TheMahdi still spills his words with as much expertise as a teen girl having her first period. - Sendraks tries to sound intelligent by deploying the term "borderline psychotic" whereas the term itself shows he doesnt know what it means. Apart from that... - SurrenderMonkey doesnt care about my opinion. In fact he disregards it so much that he steadily needs to post. - I missed some but those were boring. Some call it hostility - I now call it once more: bull** detection. Since that is exactly what those people added (while trying to sell bull** as arguments or solid facts).
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.01 23:52:00 - [223] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 01/09/2010 23:53:05 Thread summary - the content: 1. Scanning is overall too easy. Average skills (+ some top-notch equipment) are sufficient to scan any site. Non-bonused ships offer way too much scanning capabilities. It is still being argued what the breaking point shall be. 2. The interface has shortcommings. Personally I consider the interface clumsy and out of place. Something most answers objected while still agreeing it needs "tuning". Nonethless most agreed: change is direly needed. OP might fraps a vid since the discussion here still "rages". 3. Opinions are split on the difficulty + risk vs reward euqation. Still this deserves a different thread.
DeMichael Crimson Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2010.09.02 02:30:00 - [224] I agree, the skill level needed for exploration scanning is too low. I remember spending a lot of time to train skills to do exploration and then, BAM. CCP lowers the level's needed for exploration and makes it easy for a 3 day old newb player to train. Supposedly because of adding W-systems to eve and trying to introduce more PvP action in low/0.0 systems. I like the new scanning interface over all even though it still needs to be made a little bit more user friendly. The bottom line about the color of the dots doesn't really matter. 100% signal strength showing in the scan results box is what's needed before you can warp to the location. I'd have to say I'm 50% with you on this post.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.02 07:03:00 - [225] Originally by: DeMichael Crimson I agree, the skill level needed for exploration scanning is too low. I remember spending a lot of time to train skills to do exploration and then, BAM. CCP lowers the level's needed for exploration and makes it easy for a 3 day old newb player to train. Supposedly because of adding W-systems to eve and trying to introduce more PvP action in low/0.0 systems. I like the new scanning interface over all even though it still needs to be made a little bit more user friendly. The bottom line about the color of the dots doesn't really matter. 100% signal strength showing in the scan results box is what's needed before you can warp to the location. I'd have to say I'm 50% with you on this post. Please tune the summary in my last post so you agree with it. I am sure we find something. Please keep in mind that CCP is changing exploration as we speak - even though there is no official statement here on boards - .
Sendraks The Spice Weasels Must Flow	Posted - 2010.09.02 09:36:00 - [226] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Cant argue so need to be personal - you Sir - you are a genius. There is no point in arguing with you as you are not interested in any opinion that deviates even slightly from your own. So what would be the point? Really I just think you should stop. And from your later post, it is pretty clear I understand psychosis a good deal better than you do. Which isn't saying much, as I doubt you understand it at all.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.02 11:04:00 - [227] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 02/09/2010 11:04:35 Originally by: Sendraks And from your later post, it is pretty clear I understand psychosis a good deal better than you do. Which isn't saying much, as I doubt you understand it at all. Bull** detector.... check - bull** detected: by now "borderline psychotic" = psychosis. There a starting point for your self-finding process, Wikipedia says: Stupidity is a lack of intelligence, understanding, reason, wit, or sense. You Sir are stupid in its original meaning.
heheheh Ecliptic Refuge	Posted - 2010.09.02 11:08:00 - [228] Although i agree with it being to easy, i wouldnt want to go back to the old method of placing each probe individually.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.02 11:35:00 - [229] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 02/09/2010 11:35:46 Originally by: heheheh Although i agree with it being to easy, i wouldnt want to go back to the old method of placing each probe individually. None asked for that (going back to placing each probe individually) :) So we both fully agree.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.02 11:51:00 - [230] On a sidenote how often did I answer to alts of "same posters"? So far its 2 I found.

Lady Ayeipsia	Posted - 2010.09.02 12:07:00 - [231] At this point, does anyone else want to trap the OP in a C6 wormhole, with low end probing equipment and hear him complain later about how hard it was to get out?
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.02 12:17:00 - [232] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 02/09/2010 12:27:02 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia At this point, does anyone else want to trap the OP in a C6 wormhole, with low end probing equipment and hear him complain later about how hard it was to get out? Cant you answer with wits and intelligence :( - I mean, just try - once, only once.... purrrrty please? PS: I won this thread anyway since CCP changed exploration the past few days and still does as we speak. Answers by Lady Aye, checkers, MahdiTrolls and the like are just the cherries on my pie. Thank you for adding the noise I needed. After all thats what I needed you for. PPS: Did the math on my current clone with low end equipment - I easily get out of a C6 :P
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.02 12:28:00 - [233] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Thread summary - the content: 1. Scanning is overall too easy. Average skills (+ some top-notch equipment) are sufficient to scan any site. Non-bonused ships offer way too much scanning capabilities. It is still being argued what the breaking point shall be. 2. The interface has shortcommings. Personally I consider the interface clumsy and out of place. Something most answers objected while still agreeing it needs "tuning". Nonethless most agreed: change is direly needed. OP might fraps a vid since the discussion here still "rages". 3. Opinions are split on the difficulty + risk vs reward euqation. Still this deserves a different thread. So what? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.02 12:31:00 - [234] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elena Vherokia Thread summary - the content: 1. Scanning is overall too easy. Average skills (+ some top-notch equipment) are sufficient to scan any site. Non-bonused ships offer way too much scanning capabilities. It is still being argued what the breaking point shall be. 2. The interface has shortcommings. Personally I consider the interface clumsy and out of place. Something most answers objected while still agreeing it needs "tuning". Nonethless most agreed: change is direly needed. OP might fraps a vid since the discussion here still "rages". 3. Opinions are split on the difficulty + risk vs reward euqation. Still this deserves a different thread. So what? Hush cave is closing soon. Trolls are meant to be for lunch atm.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.02 12:39:00 - [235] In other words, you have absolutely no argument to support your position. Is that it? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.02 13:17:00 - [236] Originally by: Tippia In other words, you have absolutely no argument to support your position. Is that it? Dearest Tippia, on every page you forget what you are :) I pitty you but help you once more: Originally by: DeMichael Crimson Originally by: Tippia Originally by: KiLLeR21 Especially in Motsu. Found your problem. Quote: Now to be... <snip> Amazing, starts off being ok and helpful and then turns into a total ass troll. It seems this happens most of the time.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.02 13:46:00 - [237] Answer the question. You can answer it, can't you? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Lady Ayeipsia	Posted - 2010.09.02 13:47:00 - [238] Originally by: Elena Vherokia PS: I won this thread anyway since CCP changed exploration the past few days and still does as we speak. PPS: Did the math on my current clone with low end equipment - I easily get out of a C6 :P I'll bite... what change was made? I haven't noticed anything being mentioned at all. As for the math... in theory yes, you would have the skills. In practice, you try scanning down 14 Cosmic Anomalies, not knowing which is which in the C6, knowing that the WH out most likely leads to a C5 or C4, and you have to probe another 10+ sites to find the next WH out. I'm not saying it might not be fun, but it takes time.
oolk Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.09.02 14:43:00 - [239] What is a waypost??
Sendraks The Spice Weasels Must Flow	Posted - 2010.09.02 15:28:00 - [240] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Bull** detector.... check - bull** detected: by now "borderline psychotic" = psychosis. Well my idiot detector just went into overdrive. As I expected, you have no idea about psychosis, otherwise you would not have written this or preceded to provide an inappropriate link to wikipedia for no readily explainable reason (other than some form of psychosis, the same which is driving this thread). What I can't grasp is why you're doing this or what you think you're going to get out of it, other than to be made to look increasingly foolish.

Daergaar Caldari	Posted - 2010.09.02 15:31:00 - [241] Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia At this point, does anyone else want to trap the OP in a C6 wormhole, with low end probing equipment and hear him complain later about how hard it was to get out? That would be rather amusing. Although it's easier to get out of a C6 than into one, as lower class holes are easier to scan down.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.02 15:31:00 - [242] Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia I'll bite... what change was made? I haven't noticed anything being mentioned at all. Its all in this forum and has been discussed in explration channel several times by now. Just look for my other thread in this forum. Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia As for the math... in theory yes, you would have the skills. In practice, you try scanning down 14 Cosmic Anomalies, not knowing which is which in the C6, knowing that the WH out most likely leads to a C5 or C4, and you have to probe another 10+ sites to find the next WH out. I'm not saying it might not be fun, but it takes time. You miss the point - with astrometrics 5 you should be in theory twice as fast, but the UI prevents it. Still astrometrics 5 speeds it up a lot. So I truly doubt it will take me an hour or more to scan a whole C6 at my skills in my current clone with low end equipment.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.02 15:33:00 - [243] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 02/09/2010 15:33:24 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia I'll bite... what change was made? I haven't noticed anything being mentioned at all. I dont know why, but a severe rush of kindness made me link it.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.02 15:38:00 - [244] Originally by: Sendraks I am too stupid to make a point. I hate the OP. That is why I write text walls! There fixed it for ya!
Sendraks The Spice Weasels Must Flow	Posted - 2010.09.02 16:01:00 - [245] Originally by: Elena Vherokia I'll go ahead and prove Sendrak's point for him Fixed it for you as well. Playing stupid quote alteration games is easy, but I guess thats all you've got as an attempt to wriggle out of the idiocy of your earlier post.
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.02 16:10:00 - [246] Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 02/09/2010 16:11:18 Originally by: Sendraks Sendraks missed the point in . My dearest Sendraks, only in your wet dreams we write in the same league. You are only posting off-topic in a thread on eveo boards. Despite that you are messing up hostility and your own inablities and shortcommings with Trolling. Please just stop to show off on how stupid you are. Thank you Elena Vherokia PS: Did I mention I won this thread
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.02 16:17:00 - [247] Originally by: Elena Vherokia PS: Did I mention I won this thread Yes, your troll on a topic you know absolutely nothing about is very successful. Applause and huzzas all around. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Lady Ayeipsia	Posted - 2010.09.02 16:58:00 - [248] Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 02/09/2010 15:33:24 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia I'll bite... what change was made? I haven't noticed anything being mentioned at all. I dont know why, but a severe rush of kindness made me link it. Um, ok... I see nothing more than you attempting to make a pattern out of random chance. It seems like maybe one or two people saw an issue, no one else commented, and you guys are trying to make a pattern out of it. Still, I could be wrong. This weekend, I'll have more time to explore and see what is out there. If I see these anomalies as you all describe, I'll report them. But in what I have seen over the past few days, there is no change,things are exactly as they were. You guys have just had bad luck and a few buggy sites. Also, did it occur to anyone that there are other explorers who may have run the sites recently? I've found this to be the case often in certain regions, hence why I try to avoid those regions.
Dzil Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.02 17:02:00 - [249] TBH, "exploration" in apocrypha is horribly named. Prospecting would be a better word for it. You're very rarely out there searching the unknown just for the sake of discovery, rather you're out looking for wormholes to find sleeper sites to get mats for your t3 cruiser assembly logistics, pin pointing their locations so you and a small band of combat ships can run a bonus dungeon for the loot pinada. Or "hidden belt" #81593 which contains the same well known elements of arcandy and bisquick. In EVE you're about as much an explorer as any of the thousands scouring the mountains of California during the gold rush. That rant aside, the probing system ain't so bad. Sure, it's maybe not ideal for the color blind, but then unfortunately that can be said of many, many elements where gameplay uses color to differentiate between different values. I'm sure the colorblind get kinda screwed by the scan gradiant system in PI, too. To that, I'll simply say I appreciate your disability and cast no inferiority on you for maybe not doing so well at that portion of the game... but video games don't need handicap ramps. Deaf folks don't do well at guitar hero, etc. Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :)
Elena Vherokia Silent Service Limited	Posted - 2010.09.02 18:11:00 - [250] Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia Originally by: Elena Vherokia Edited by: Elena Vherokia on 02/09/2010 15:33:24 Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia I'll bite... what change was made? I haven't noticed anything being mentioned at all. I dont know why, but a severe rush of kindness made me link it. Um, ok... I see nothing more than you attempting to make a pattern out of random chance. It seems like maybe one or two people saw an issue, no one else commented, and you guys are trying to make a pattern out of it. Still, I could be wrong. This weekend, I'll have more time to explore and see what is out there. If I see these anomalies as you all describe, I'll report them. But in what I have seen over the past few days, there is no change,things are exactly as they were. You guys have just had bad luck and a few buggy sites. Also, did it occur to anyone that there are other explorers who may have run the sites recently? I've found this to be the case often in certain regions, hence why I try to avoid those regions. Ill tell you something hunny: doubting facts collected by others, which are verified by third parties, just because you dont like them is your choice :). Writing before finishing a thought also. Only because you make up arguments out of thin air, doesnt mean others work alike. As such remarks like "that there are other explorers" might be things you forget before posting - I dont. Actually that happens when putting a brain to use. On anything else: happy Trolling since I got what I wanted - attention for a change and a change in progress. Thanks again for ya help this is a Troll thread now and thus without me Yours Elena Vherokia

Sendraks The Spice Weasels Must Flow	Posted - 2010.09.02 20:08:00 - [251] Originally by: Elena Vherokia only in your wet dreams we write in the same league. Believe me kid, we're no way in the same league. I might have nightmares about one day being in the same league as you (perhaps following an accident that leaves me seriously deranged), but wet dreams, not a chance. I mean, what kind of idiot would dispute the meaning behind two words and then supplement their dispute with a link to wikipedia. A website that would allow anyone who chose to enter those two words to see how wrong and how much of an idiot you really are. You are not able to construct a reasoned argument. Whatever argument you may have had was lost from the outset in the trolling and flamebait of your original post. Since then you've steadily resisted any and all reasoned argument against what you've suggested, as you're only interested in hearing that which supports what you already believe. Such is the path of madness and denial.


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