Y U HEF 2 B MED, ITZ ONLEE EH GAYM.

Here's an idea, start using ASB's.

Problem solved.

Move on.

Look at you being all contrarian.

Yeah of course, because dual ASB's isn't literally "invincible" they must be "fine". Despite numerous pvp videos proving you can tank 3-5 bc in a bc for the full length of a 10+ minute fight.

Stop trolling you ****.

Link please. I linked one getting soloed. Please link one tanking 5 bcs.

ASBs are fine.

Ill use the Cyclone because it has these obscene theoretical numbers being thrown around.

They can be soloed, despite claims to the contrary.

http://pinkiepie.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14290526

Even dual XLASB are not invincible because of alpha.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14444795

Say it out loud: "54 seconds."

That is how long they are awesome for. 54 Seconds. They might need a fitting increase to discourage dual oversized fits, but otherwise:

54 seconds.

I use ASB's. It isn't a solution. When they become widespread it will wreck solo pvp and small gang. They're a huge lopsided buff to tanking, which will affect all non-fleet pvp.

In fact let's just cut to the chase: they're hilarious badly balanced and will be nerfed.

PS. the "u mad" thing hasn't been funny since about 2008 you atrocious pubby.

I've already thoroughly debunked that 54 seconds claim.

Repeatedly.

-Liang

Pardon me, but I must have missed it. I have yet to see a single kill board link or pvp video that shows a single ASB setup is op. They are vulnerable every 54 seconds (or whenever your DPS forces them to reload). If the attackers survive (~500ish dps in your example) past 54 seconds (or whatever the reload time becomes) and have enough dps, the ASB ship dies. If you don't have enough dps (800 in your example) the ASB ship will live. Sounds ok to me.

Post examples. CCP still appears to have an open mind. (at least about the multi setups). I have an open mind. Our theory crafting and EFT warrioring is fun, but evidence rules. Post kill mails or pvp videos that prove single setups are op (and don't look like other pvp mails/videos where normal armor/shield boosting ships eat entire gangs - Nerf Kessah Domis and Kil2 Megas and Geddons and Triple rep Myrms and pwnage Maelstroms and Hypes!). I'd love to see them. If they show what you guys are claiming, Ill post it in Test server feedback myself.

I love how you totally ignored the meat of that post which illustrated it... yet again. The funny thing is that this thread is littered with me posting killmails that simply should not have ever happened.

-Liang

Ed: Removed well deserved snark.

I'm not going to take the approach that the pro-ASB side has done and claim that any killmail without absolutely perfect fittings or not going the exact way that I would predict is not admissible evidence. Instead, I'm going to say that this is a fantastic killmail for proving my point. We know these things from the killmail:
- He did not have implants
- He did not have links
- He tanked 39k raw damage
- He tanked 76k EHP (10k hull, 8.5k armor, 56.5k shields)
- He tanked 29.8k shield HP which means he almost certainly had 15-16 boosts from the ASB
- He made it through the first reload
- He had no cap boosters in his ASB at the end of the fight
- He had no cap boosters in his cargohold at the end of the fight

The take home lesson here is that your 54 second claim is false (108 seconds if he'd bothered to bring some cap boosters along). A bit more research shows us that the Talos in that kill was also almost certainly ASB fit.

I read that part and I did ignore it. "It shouldda had links and implants and god knows whatelse" didnt seem to be something I needed to respond to (because we arent talking about the need to nerf boosts right now). Anyway - I guess you are taking me hyper-literally and I am being a bit hyperbolic. I think you understand my point though, as I detailed in the above post and others before it, that I am saying they are weak whenever they have to reload. That is a balancing factor. Admittedly, that reload may not take place at exactly 54 seconds. It might be longer depending on the incoming dps. It might be shorter depending on if you have to overheat it. It might be exactly 54 seconds. Regardless, when it reloads, it is vulnerable. It can be alphaed too. It has weaknesses. That is the point. My point still stands, I havent seen any linked evidence that shows that single ASB setups are OP. (And no, the honor tanked Typhoon kill doesnt convince me. )

First, I know for a fact that the Talos was also XL ASB fit. So take from that what you will. But damage is the ultimate issue here, because we are talking about tank, right? So, regardless if it was eleventy-billion seconds, or 5 seconds, the ultimate point is that it took 39k raw damage. Then it died. Even if it had not run out of boosters, that Ion Talos would have finished eroding its buffer during the second reload, and the Cyclone would have died then (or the Cyclone would have eroded the Talos' buffer and killed it during its reload - which is the same point). If there were any second ship with the Talos of cruiser size or above, the Cyclone would have died during its first reload. If it was linked and boosted up the wazoo, and took multiples of 39k damage, if that was compared to a similarly boosted armor or shield fit, I suspect those numbers wouldnt be OP either, relative to the others.

Regardless, Im not going to argue any more, though I might come back to post some kill mails that may support either position. We have shouted the theory craft. We have beat the horse. Lets look for evidence (either way).

they do - which is why you usually won't see bonuses for turret damage on amarr ships and why their cap and PG requirements are balanced in a way that makes fitting them to non-amarr ships pretty much impossible.

lasers are by design overpowered relative to the other weapon types.

(my personal feeling is that lasers are in a fine place right now - they were very strong ca. 2008 but since projectiles and hybrids got buffs and the field is relatively balanced; putting them back into a significantly stronger position now would only initiate another cycle of stat inflation)

So lasers were balanced because they had high damage on hit countered. by all their huge downsides, fair enough. Then projectiles and hybrids were buffed to match. And how exactly is that still balanced? Aren't all of the detriments of lasers outdated then?

ASBs are fine.

Ill use the Cyclone because it has these obscene theoretical numbers being thrown around.

They can be soloed, despite claims to the contrary.

http://pinkiepie.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14290526

Even dual XLASB are not invincible because of alpha.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14444795

Say it out loud: "54 seconds."

That is how long they are awesome for. 54 Seconds. They might need a fitting increase to discourage dual oversized fits, but otherwise:

54 seconds.

The cap booster is a direct counter to the neutralizer. The ASB is a direct counter to small gangs.

-Liang

So you need an ASB fitted Talos to take on the ASB cyclone?

Their buffer is terrible, and they can be broken by 1-3 similar sized ships, even before their charges run out (depending on the situation).

Yes, it is overpowered somewhat. I lost a navy megathron with 222k EHP to a sleipner that had kill rights on me, which always seemed to bounce back up when its shields got low under my ~1200 dps + TP and web. Of course, all my faction mods had to drop for the guy instead of being destroyed.

Atleast limit it to 1 ASB per ship...

As I stated in a later post, yes the Talos was asb. And you could say the same "you need to bring X to beat an X" about many ship/fleet configurations. And I solo killed a MASB Atron with a honor tanked Atron. Nerf honor tank or rails? I don't think so.

It's been a bit since I posted in this thread, but after seeing these often in many configurations now, my opinion stands. I believe they need to increase fitting costs to discourage (but not eliminate) dual oversized fits (i.e. you can still fit dual fits, but would have to gimp the rest of your fit terribly). And they need to balance armor because the ASB highlights how bad active armor is. But otherwise, single ASB setups are fine. Their buffer is terrible, and they can be broken by 1-3 similar sized ships, even before their charges run out (depending on the situation).

They add a new element to small gang. I can now fly speedy blasterships with a reasonable tank in small gang so I can actually get in range to apply damage. As primarily a Gallente pilot, it is a refreshing change (though I still want them to fix active armor).

Edit: A thoughtful poster in W&T recently educated me about The Change Curve and I think that is a good label to describe the ASB reception. It's a paradigm shift. It's uncomfortable at first, but people will (and have) warm to them (dual oversized fits aside).

IMHO.

i think the biggest looser of ship types might be the pilgrim and curse
just having with old fits with dps of 237 with maxed droneskills which is not much, but was actuall not needed as they coulbreak the tank with neuts.
now they can neut the ship and the tagets can still rep up like mad and you still have only 237 dps .:-(

ok now you have as well new drone dms mods. but for this you sacrifice the armor tank of the pilgrim . so swap to a shield variant with asb ?
one one side i think the asb are ok , on the other side i think not well thaught out.