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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 20 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
920
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Posted - 2012.08.09 13:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Insert tired and overused Game of Thrones reference here.
Good news everyone! Now that we have Inferno 1.2 out the door we're going to start posting threads for stuff we are working on for the winter. My first set is the T1 EW frigs (Crucifier, Griffin, Maulus, Vigil). We're giving them the tiericide treatment which means that since they were formerly low-tier they are getting very significant buffs.
Our vision for these ships is that they become commonly used by newer players to take useful roles in fleets of many sizes. These changes are not being made in a vaccum, we expect to release them alongside a lot more balance changes in the Winter that should include the T1 EW cruisers and some tweaks to certain ewar mechanics themselves (among other things).
The Crucifier and Vigil are being given strong roles towards longer range disruption, and the fact that the Griffin and Maulus are more medium range oriented is intended and part of the overall environment change.
We also realize that these changes will make the current problems with EAFs even more obvious, and we're putting a lot of thought into them as well.
Like all the posts we make in this forum, these ships are a work in progress and we're looking for as much feedback as possible.
Without further ado, here's what we've got so far:
CRUCIFIER:
Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per level 10% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+1), 3 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 27 PWG (+2), 235 CPU (+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(-24) / 400(+25) / 350(+21) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 180s (-7.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 350 (+68) / 3.35(-1.09) / 1064000 Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+10) / 45(+40) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64km (+16.5) / 540 (+100) / 6 Sensor strength: 14 Radar Signature radius: 38 (-8) Cargo capacity: 265 (+100)
GRIFFIN:
Frigate skill bonuses (unchanged): 15% Bonus to ECM Jammer strength per level 10% Bonus to ECM Jammer cap use per level Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+1), 2 L (+1), 2 launchers Fittings: 24 PWG (-1), 240 CPU (+15) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+9) / 250 / 250 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 245 (-5)/ 135s (-52.5s)/ 1.815 (+0.482) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 325 (+38) / 3.5(+0.14) / 1056000 Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km (+5) / 500 (+100) / 6 (+1) Sensor strength: 17 Gravimetric Signature radius: 42 (-8) Cargo capacity: 260 (+100)
MAULUS:
Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Sensor Damp effectiveness per level 10% Bonus to Drone MWD velocity and Drone control range per level Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 4 M (+1), 3 L (+1), 2 turrets Fittings: 26 PWG (+1), 230 CPU (+10) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(-13) / 350(-1) / 400(+71) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 275 (+25)/ 150s (-37.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 375 (+69) / 3.25(-0.626) / 1063000 Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+10) / 30(+20) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64.5km (+14.5) / 520 (+100) / 6 Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric Signature radius: 40 (-8) Cargo capacity: 275 (+100)
VIGIL:
Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level 10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers Fittings: 25 PWG , 225 CPU (+15) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 400 (+47) / 3.22 / 1080000 Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6 Sensor strength: 12 Ladar Signature radius: 36 (-8) Cargo capacity: 250 (+100) |
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Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
27
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Posted - 2012.08.09 13:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
when can we expect the missile boats? |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
191
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Posted - 2012.08.09 13:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Increased drone velocity is actually harmful, since it makes the drones overshoot.
Also for gods sake, fix ecm before you start buffing ecm ships. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
920
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Posted - 2012.08.09 13:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Increased drone velocity is actually harmful, since it makes the drones overshoot.
Also for gods sake, fix ecm before you start buffing ecm ships.
I've done a fair bit of testing with the 10% per level bonus and it's worked well so far. May get changed though with further testing. I also tried a 20% per level bonus for fun and it did break things in quite funny ways.
As for the second part, I have plans. |
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mkint
842
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Posted - 2012.08.09 14:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
damps are still useless. I'd still mock rookies who think flying a maulus is a good idea in any way. Fly a combat boat, or cross-train griffin. |
Fleet Warpsujarento
Caldari's Pride - Factional Warfare Cadet School
143
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Posted - 2012.08.09 14:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Got to question the point of the Maulus drone speed bonus. There's a reason you virtually never see drone navigation computers on PvP ships, and it's because Hobs and Warriors II are already fast enough.
What might be nice is a bonus to the range of the damps. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
8
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Posted - 2012.08.09 14:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'll let everyone else do the necessary 'OH GOD ECM IS SO ********' posts. How about two damp bonuses on the maulus?
The cap bonus on the griffin doesn't really make sense to me. Damps use more cap than jammers, I believe, and painters use a similar amount. Is it supposed to be especially cap stable, or would giving it anything else make it more OP than you'd like?
Also, optimal bonus on painters when they are 45 optimal 90 falloff base? Maybe the ranges should be reworked, idk. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
922
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Posted - 2012.08.09 14:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.
The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful. |
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Mira Luhtanen
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:What might be nice is a bonus to the range of the damps. yes please
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
8
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.
The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.
You could give the griffin missile range instead of ecm strength? |
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Cameron Zero
Red Federation
84
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:VIGIL:
Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level 10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers Fittings: 25 PWG , 225 CPU (+15) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 400 (+47) / 3.22 / 1080000 Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6 Sensor strength: 12 Ladar Signature radius: 36 (-8) Cargo capacity: 250 (+100)
This will see the Vigil's speed bonus removed, right? Guess it's time to say good bye to the fastest T1 frigate in the game and go looking for something else that can play with the Interceptors. ;p "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. GǪ" |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
284
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.
The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.
I understand the fear of making the Maulus too good if it were to receive an optimal range bonus to sensor dampers. The drone bonus is unattractive though.
May I suggest a cap usage reduction to sensor dampers instead? They are relatively cap intensive modules and such a bonus would help running a MWD together with them. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846 |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
923
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cameron Zero wrote:Quote:VIGIL:
Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level 10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers Fittings: 25 PWG , 225 CPU (+15) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 400 (+47) / 3.22 / 1080000 Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6 Sensor strength: 12 Ladar Signature radius: 36 (-8) Cargo capacity: 250 (+100) This will see the Vigil's speed bonus removed, right? Guess it's time to say good bye to the fastest T1 frigate in the game and go looking for something else that can play with the Interceptors. ;p
The new Slasher isn't quite as fast as a level 5 Vigil, but I think you'll still like it. |
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Mira Luhtanen
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cameron Zero wrote:This will see the Vigil's speed bonus removed, right? Guess it's time to say good bye to the fastest T1 frigate in the game and go looking for something else that can play with the Interceptors. ;p
In fairness, we do have the Slasher now.
e: FOZZIE! |
PinkKnife
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
184
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Increased drone velocity is actually harmful, since it makes the drones overshoot.
Also for gods sake, fix ecm before you start buffing ecm ships. I've done a fair bit of testing with the 10% per level bonus and it's worked well so far. May get changed though with further testing. I also tried a 20% per level bonus for fun and it did break things in quite funny ways. As for the second part, I have plans.
So then, you're saying don't fit any of those new Drone Navigation Computer II's on it?
Can we fix drones in general while we are it? |
Fleet Warpsujarento
Caldari's Pride - Factional Warfare Cadet School
144
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.
The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.
These ships aren't meant to do damage. That's why the other frigs in this buff don't have any kind of damage bonus, they have two bonuses to their ewar.
Giving the Maulus a bonus to damps would bring it in line with the others. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
694
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. Could be worse. Like an optimal range bonus to the most useless ewar module.
Target painters do not improve damage all that much in larger engagements. It's not even enough to make annoying interceptors at 100km hitable by large artillery, and that would be a pretty niche role. And contrary to other ewar, it's not useful to spread out, so once you have 3-4 painters in the whole fleet, any others are not only of "little use", but literally useless.
What exactly do you see as the role of the Vigil in fleets? I can see useful uses for the three other frigates where a rookie can join a fleet and affect things, but the Vigil? |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
766
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cameron Zero wrote:Quote:VIGIL:
Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level 10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers Fittings: 25 PWG , 225 CPU (+15) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 400 (+47) / 3.22 / 1080000 Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6 Sensor strength: 12 Ladar Signature radius: 36 (-8) Cargo capacity: 250 (+100) This will see the Vigil's speed bonus removed, right? Guess it's time to say good bye to the fastest T1 frigate in the game and go looking for something else that can play with the Interceptors. ;p
It looks like they built half of the bonus into the hull...
CCP consider giving the full bonus up to 440m/s??
Especially with the loss of a low slot and that their "EWAR" bonus is in no way defensive, you're really leaving the vigil a bit under whelmed.
CCP Ytterbium mentioned something at Fanfest panel of "Minmatar EWAR, Target painting, REALLY?!" - Are we going to see a move away from TP as main Minmatar EWAR in the near future?
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
923
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time) |
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Mira Luhtanen
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:May I suggest a cap usage reduction to sensor dampers instead? They are relatively cap intensive modules and such a bonus would help running a MWD together with them. good idea
Tracking Disruptor II: 1.80 cap/s Target Painter II: 2.40 cap/s ECM - Racial Jammer II: 2.85 cap/s Remote Sensor Dampener II: 3.60 cap/s ECM - Multispectral Jammer II: 3.95 cap/s
CCP Fozzie wrote:I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time) In my experience target painting can be really annoying when trying to speed tank in pve, because stacking penalties don't seem to apply correctly to NPC painters.
hint. |
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Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
191
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time)
Highslot painter go go go. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
766
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time)
So you're saying Target Painters are gonna be Doomsday devices for frigates.
I like it!
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
John Nucleus
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
18
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
CRUCIFIER:
Frigate skill bonuses: 7.5% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per level 10% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+1), 3 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 27 PWG (+2), 235 CPU (+20) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(-24) / 400(+25) / 350(+21) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 180s (-7.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 350 (+68) / 3.35(-1.09) / 1064000 Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+10) / 45(+40) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64km (+16.5) / 540 (+100) / 6 Sensor strength: 14 Radar Signature radius: 38 (-8) Cargo capacity: 265 (+100)
This looks like a very fun ship to fly, add the TD effect to missile and it's gold.
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Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
191
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
One issue I have with this is that ewar range is already quite long, and a range bonus is not going to be particularly valuable.
What about giving them a secondary bonus to their "ally" ewar type.
ie, vigil and maulus would get damps and tps (with the maulus damp bonus being better than the vigil's, and the opposite for TPs), and the same for the crucifier and griffin. |
Del Vikus
Gradient Electus Matari
7
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
I'm OK with the Vigil losing the speed bonus, but it's by far the least useful ship in this list. Why? Not because of the new layout, but because TPs are just inherently crap compared to the other forms of EWAR. it is universally acknowledged that TPs are crap compared to the other forms of EWAR. Nobody really flew Vigils before because of the TP bonus; they flew them because of speed, sig radius, etc. Now that those bonuses are gone, all you're left is the TP bonuses, which were always the least useful part of the Vigil.
Put another way: I'm fine with these changes as long as you've got TP changes in store. If not, I just don't see the point of getting into a Vigil (as compared to the changes to the Crucifier, which make it really really nasty). All you've done is take things away from the Vigil. |
Vakr Onzo
Elite Amarr Navy Academy
0
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
Del Vikus wrote:I'm OK with the Vigil losing the speed bonus, but it's by far the least useful ship in this list. Why? Not because of the new layout, but because TPs are just inherently crap compared to the other forms of EWAR. it is universally acknowledged that TPs are crap compared to the other forms of EWAR. Nobody really flew Vigils before because of the TP bonus; they flew them because of speed, sig radius, etc. Now that those bonuses are gone, all you're left is the TP bonuses, which were always the least useful part of the Vigil.
Put another way: I'm fine with these changes as long as you've got TP changes in store. If not, I just don't see the point of getting into a Vigil (as compared to the changes to the Crucifier, which make it really really nasty). All you've done is take things away from the Vigil. So TP doesn't make a target easier to hit for bigger guns? |
Del Vikus
Gradient Electus Matari
7
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:36:00 -
[27] - Quote
Vakr Onzo wrote:So TP doesn't make a target easier to hit for bigger guns?
In response, let me quote Arkady:
Quote:Target painters do not improve damage all that much in larger engagements. It's not even enough to make annoying interceptors at 100km hitable by large artillery, and that would be a pretty niche role. And contrary to other ewar, it's not useful to spread out, so once you have 3-4 painters in the whole fleet, any others are not only of "little use", but literally useless.
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John Nucleus
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
18
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:One issue I have with this is that ewar range is already quite long, and a range bonus is not going to be particularly valuable.
What about giving them a secondary bonus to their "ally" ewar type.
ie, vigil and maulus would get damps and tps (with the maulus damp bonus being better than the vigil's, and the opposite for TPs), and the same for the crucifier and griffin.
I don't know, for the crucifier I'd rather have the optimal bonus than two bonuses with no synergy. In fleet battle, it allows you to fly it like a mini arbitrator: stay away from the blob, TD their main dps ship and use your drone to apply dps on the primary. Fun little ship. |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
414
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Increased drone velocity is actually harmful, since it makes the drones overshoot.
Also for gods sake, fix ecm before you start buffing ecm ships. I've done a fair bit of testing with the 10% per level bonus and it's worked well so far. May get changed though with further testing. I also tried a 20% per level bonus for fun and it did break things in quite funny ways. As for the second part, I have plans.
:) heh you should try fitting the drone navigation modules then, specially on a carrier with 15 warriors out... they move so fast you can't even recall them to the ship again (they basicly just orbit you at very high speed then :DD!!!!) Christmas wish list https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134275 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
766
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Going back to my point about the Vigil being underwhelming is really simple.
The target painting bonus for range sounds good but in reality it doesn't help the Vigil in a real situation. A T2 TP reaches 30km base, with some skills it'll go out to 45km currently, with recommended applied bonus it will get out to 67km.
So, that sound great, but when you have a Vigil out at 67km target painting, a sniping cruiser can hit it easy. BLAP, off the field.
The problem with setting up EWAR for long range is basically that the transversal/sig radius calculation to hit is pretty not generous in these situations and they become easy targets for long range cruisers. The Crucifier has the ability to TD the most threatening turret ship potentially, but the Vigil just becomes an easy target. The Maulus can dampen a ship trying to target it, the Griffin can try and jam it. But the Vigil just shines a pretty laser at them. Also, it has no weapon system that will be able to reach that far. Light missiles will reach 40km. So they're going to really just get pinched out of whatever functionality you want.
Also, the powergrid is really weak.
25PG With L5 Skills = 31.25 PG
1MN MWD (Meta) - 15 PG = 16.25 PG LML II ................... - 8.1 PG x2 = .05 PG remaining
And where am i supposed to fit the Target Painter?
OR Meta 4 launchers 7.2x2 = 1.85 PG
So I can only fit 1 TP but have 3 mid slots open?
I think your PG on all the ships seems low TBH. Give them a boost so that they can actually have some fitting space. I understand these aren't DPS ships, but giving them the ability to fit 22 DPS or maybe some tank (God forbid) is hardly going to break them.
And I had to find the quote from CCP Ytterbium about Target painting because it's probably my favorite quote from Fanfest :: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wnCBfkMh8&feature=player_detailpage#t=2605s Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
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