Increased drone velocity is actually harmful, since it makes the drones overshoot.

Also for gods sake, fix ecm before you start buffing ecm ships.

What might be nice is a bonus to the range of the damps.

We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.

The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.

VIGIL:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 25 PWG , 225 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 400 (+47) / 3.22 / 1080000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6
Sensor strength: 12 Ladar
Signature radius: 36 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 250 (+100)

We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.

The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.

This will see the Vigil's speed bonus removed, right? Guess it's time to say good bye to the fastest T1 frigate in the game and go looking for something else that can play with the Interceptors. ;p

This will see the Vigil's speed bonus removed, right? Guess it's time to say good bye to the fastest T1 frigate in the game and go looking for something else that can play with the Interceptors. ;p

I've done a fair bit of testing with the 10% per level bonus and it's worked well so far. May get changed though with further testing.
I also tried a 20% per level bonus for fun and it did break things in quite funny ways.

As for the second part, I have plans.

We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.

The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.

We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus.

This will see the Vigil's speed bonus removed, right? Guess it's time to say good bye to the fastest T1 frigate in the game and go looking for something else that can play with the Interceptors. ;p

May I suggest a cap usage reduction to sensor dampers instead? They are relatively cap intensive modules and such a bonus would help running a MWD together with them.

I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time)

I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time)

I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time)

CRUCIFIER:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level
Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+1), 3 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 27 PWG (+2), 235 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(-24) / 400(+25) / 350(+21)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 180s (-7.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 350 (+68) / 3.35(-1.09) / 1064000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+10) / 45(+40)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64km (+16.5) / 540 (+100) / 6
Sensor strength: 14 Radar
Signature radius: 38 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 265 (+100)

I'm OK with the Vigil losing the speed bonus, but it's by far the least useful ship in this list. Why? Not because of the new layout, but because TPs are just inherently crap compared to the other forms of EWAR. it is universally acknowledged that TPs are crap compared to the other forms of EWAR. Nobody really flew Vigils before because of the TP bonus; they flew them because of speed, sig radius, etc. Now that those bonuses are gone, all you're left is the TP bonuses, which were always the least useful part of the Vigil.

Put another way: I'm fine with these changes as long as you've got TP changes in store. If not, I just don't see the point of getting into a Vigil (as compared to the changes to the Crucifier, which make it really really nasty). All you've done is take things away from the Vigil.

So TP doesn't make a target easier to hit for bigger guns?

Target painters do not improve damage all that much in larger engagements. It's not even enough to make annoying interceptors at 100km hitable by large artillery, and that would be a pretty niche role. And contrary to other ewar, it's not useful to spread out, so once you have 3-4 painters in the whole fleet, any others are not only of "little use", but literally useless.

One issue I have with this is that ewar range is already quite long, and a range bonus is not going to be particularly valuable.

What about giving them a secondary bonus to their "ally" ewar type.

ie, vigil and maulus would get damps and tps (with the maulus damp bonus being better than the vigil's, and the opposite for TPs), and the same for the crucifier and griffin.

I've done a fair bit of testing with the 10% per level bonus and it's worked well so far. May get changed though with further testing.
I also tried a 20% per level bonus for fun and it did break things in quite funny ways.

As for the second part, I have plans.

And I had to find the quote from CCP Ytterbium about Target painting because it's probably my favorite quote from Fanfest ::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wnCBfkMh8&feature=player_detailpage#t=2626s


(And the general EWAR quote which I like, especially about ECM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wnCBfkMh8&feature=player_detailpage#t=2605s

Going back to my point about the Vigil being underwhelming is really simple.
*snip*

Erm, can I get a transcript of those quotes? the captioning on those are...."gibberish"

What! I understand him perfectly fine...

Link #1 :

Same for the Minmatar, Target Painters for EWAR, SERIOUSLY?!



Link #2
So we're not happy with ECM in general but again it's very tricky to do beacuse we don't want to make it useless, if anything we want to take a look at EWAR in general, we want to take a look at dampeners. You use the Arazu or Lachesis for warp disruption range generally not for the dampening. Same for the Minmatar, Target Painters for EWAR, SERIOUSLY?!

So TP doesn't make a target easier to hit for bigger guns?

Thank you and well, I'm deaf and well-read. The captioning for Audio Transcribe on some of those youtube clips make my eyes bleed

Assuming that I've done my math right*:
1 TP is equivalent to a 32% web
2 TPs are equivalent to a 52% web
3 TPs are equivalent to a 60% web

*max skilled T2 TPs with a 5%/level ship bonus, no rigs

I guess I'm trying to understand how you're converting from Sig Radius to speed reduction in this case?

:) heh you should try fitting the drone navigation modules then, specially on a carrier with 15 warriors out... they move so fast you can't even recall them to the ship again (they basicly just orbit you at very high speed then :DD!!!!)

VIGIL:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 25 PWG , 225 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 400 (+47) / 3.22 / 1080000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6
Sensor strength: 12 Ladar
Signature radius: 36 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 250 (+100)

I've done a fair bit of testing with the 10% per level bonus and it's worked well so far. May get changed though with further testing.
I also tried a 20% per level bonus for fun and it did break things in quite funny ways.

As for the second part, I have plans.

We completely understand that the drone speed and control range bonus on the Maulus is a fairly weak bonus. I consider the extra 10m3 dronebay the bigger portion of the buff to it's damage dealing.

The drone speed and control range was mostly chosen since it's a bonus that has good synergy with damps as well as little chance of becoming too powerful.

CRUCIFIER:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Tracking Disruptor optimal range per level
Slot layout: 2 H, 4 M (+1), 3 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 27 PWG (+2), 235 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250(-24) / 400(+25) / 350(+21)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 180s (-7.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 350 (+68) / 3.35(-1.09) / 1064000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(+10) / 45(+40)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64km (+16.5) / 540 (+100) / 6
Sensor strength: 14 Radar
Signature radius: 38 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 265 (+100)

GRIFFIN:

Frigate skill bonuses (unchanged):
15% Bonus to ECM Jammer strength per level
10% Bonus to ECM Jammer cap use per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+1), 2 L (+1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 24 PWG (-1), 240 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400(+9) / 250 / 250
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 245 (-5)/ 135s (-52.5s)/ 1.815 (+0.482)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 325 (+38) / 3.5(+0.14) / 1056000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km (+5) / 500 (+100) / 6 (+1)
Sensor strength: 17 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 42 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 260 (+100)

MAULUS:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Sensor Damp effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Drone MWD velocity and Drone control range per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 4 M (+1), 3 L (+1), 2 turrets
Fittings: 26 PWG (+1), 230 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(-13) / 350(-1) / 400(+71)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 275 (+25)/ 150s (-37.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 375 (+69) / 3.25(-0.626) / 1063000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+10) / 30(+20)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64.5km (+14.5) / 520 (+100) / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 275 (+100)

VIGIL:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Target Painter optimal range per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 5 M (+2), 2 L (-1), 2 launchers
Fittings: 25 PWG , 225 CPU (+15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(+76) / 300(+26) / 300(+42)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 235 (-15)/ 130s (-57.5s)/ 1.8077 (+0.57)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 400 (+47) / 3.22 / 1080000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 63.5km (+18.5) / 560 (+105) / 6
Sensor strength: 12 Ladar
Signature radius: 36 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 250 (+100)

Agreed. Please keep the drones.

On a side note, When you guys are done T1 Frigs, are you touching any T2 frigs before you move into Crusiers?

I really would like to see the Keres and Hyena be what they should be. I'm not sure I could wait for a full round of T1 changes through Battleships for you to make these EFs useful for the costs. Would love to see the Keres be an upgraded Maulus to what you are proposing here.

In fact with these changes, an EF on field would be a inferior to a degree of its T1 counterpart. Great changes, just maybe give the EFs a quick duct tape fix to hold them over until a true revamp is ready. EFs are already farily gimp, these guys will make sure they never get any ladies.

ItGÇÖs actually the Maulus Drone control range bonus that I would question how that sort of control range bonus is useful as it is at the edge of lock range, you would be well out of turret range and so could fit range augmenter or a drone control rig instead if you wished. Also drones are very vulnerable used at that range, hitpoints or tracking (to help with the increased speed issue) may be better.

drone mwd speed could be useful if the maulus would get allowed to use bigger drones then it usually could.
maybe combine the mwd speed in a volume und bandwidth reduction for electronic warfare and logistic drones?
making the maulus using logistic drones would also dreate a logistic frigate a lot of people are asking for.

I admit that this idea makes me very excited.

-Liang

I believe 7.5% bonus to sensor damps is not enough as a bonus. I suggest a 10% increase to sensor damps would be more sensible. Sensor Damps are pretty gimped, and 7.5% makes it barely, barely usable. 10% will certainly make them worth using. 15% would make it awesome though.


I don't get why the other ships get an optimal range bonus, while the maulus gets a drone control range and speed bonus.


Tracking disruption is strong ewar, so i think 7.5% is good.


Target Painting is lacking the modules need a boost or a boost in bonus would be ideal.


I believe a boost from 7.5% to 15% would certainly make it worthwhile.

As for the second part, I have plans.

I've done a fair bit of testing with the 10% per level bonus and it's worked well so far. May get changed though with further testing.
I also tried a 20% per level bonus for fun and it did break things in quite funny ways.

As for the second part, I have plans.

As for the second part, I have plans.

The balance of ECM isn't really the problem, it's broadly balanced these days. The problem is that it's an utterly terrible mechanic. It's hopelessly binary, being either ineffective or rage-inducing, and lends itself to being a remote-WCS. All that can be said of it is that old-style ECM, which just used a simple comparison of sum of jam strengths against sensor strength without any % chance roll, was even worse.

So I don't believe there is anything you can do with ECM to make it a better mechanic without basically making it Not ECM. ECM is therefore Not Fixable. So get rid of ECM completely. Give Caldari Gallente's RSDs instead, with appropriate balancing of ship bonuses etc. to ensure that Caldari retains a sensible degree of ewar advantage over the other races. Arguably, RSDs are what ECM should be - capable of inflicting a permajam if the right conditions are met, with the target still able to alter those conditions himself. RSDs are still a bit binary, but it's a much better mechanic.

Gallente should get a new ewar of missile "tracking" disruptors to replace RSDs, as befits their racial enemy. Don't add the missile disruption effect to tracking disruptors, you're in danger of making them too powerful, particularly with the new 7.5% per level bonuses that you're throwing about, and the ubiquitous link T3s.

All we need then is a secondary ewar for Caldari. Something like a module that disrupts remote assistance maybe, to help replace the logistics-suppression role of old ECM. The module would reduce the range and transfer amount of shield, armour and cap transfers by some amount, subject to normal stacking penalties.

The balance of ECM isn't really the problem, it's broadly balanced these days. The problem is that it's an utterly terrible mechanic. It's hopelessly binary, being either ineffective or rage-inducing, and lends itself to being a remote-WCS. All that can be said of it is that old-style ECM, which just used a simple comparison of sum of jam strengths against sensor strength without any % chance roll, was even worse.

So I don't believe there is anything you can do with ECM to make it a better mechanic without basically making it Not ECM. ECM is therefore Not Fixable. So get rid of ECM completely. Give Caldari Gallente's RSDs instead, with appropriate balancing of ship bonuses etc. to ensure that Caldari retains a sensible degree of ewar advantage over the other races. Arguably, RSDs are what ECM should be - capable of inflicting a permajam if the right conditions are met, with the target still able to alter those conditions himself. RSDs are still a bit binary, but it's a much better mechanic.

Gallente should get a new ewar of missile "tracking" disruptors to replace RSDs, as befits their racial enemy. Don't add the missile disruption effect to tracking disruptors, you're in danger of making them too powerful, particularly with the new 7.5% per level bonuses that you're throwing about, and the ubiquitous link T3s.

All we need then is a secondary ewar for Caldari. Something like a module that disrupts remote assistance maybe, to help replace the logistics-suppression role of old ECM. The module would reduce the range and transfer amount of shield, armour and cap transfers by some amount, subject to normal stacking penalties.

It looks like they built half of the bonus into the hull...

CCP consider giving the full bonus up to 440m/s??

Especially with the loss of a low slot and that their "EWAR" bonus is in no way defensive, you're really leaving the vigil a bit under whelmed.

Could someone explain the idea behind the "ship stats by race"? The rebalanced ships seem to follow a set pattern of {N, N+K, N+2K, N+3K} for many stats - for example, the new attack frigates have speeds of 400 / 410 / 420 / 430, targeting range of 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30, etc. Some stats don't have exactly the same interval (I suspect sig 29 was too good on the Slasher), and some stats have a different pattern entirely (sensor strength), but there is a clear overall pattern. Within a single stat, the ships of a single class have a fixed rank by race - so speed is always Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr > Caldari, cap size is always Amarr > Gallente > Caldari > Minmatar, etc.

My question is: why is Caldari on the low end of almost every stat? They're 4th for speed, 4th for total HP, 3rd for sig radius, 3rd for PG, and 3rd for cap. To compensate they're 1st for CPU (good), 1st for targeting range (useful), and 1st for sensor strength. That's right, sensor strength. Not scan resolution - they're 4th for that too.

I guess Caldari are the computer nerds of EVE, because they suck at everything else.

Could someone explain the idea behind the "ship stats by race"? The rebalanced ships seem to follow a set pattern of {N, N+K, N+2K, N+3K} for many stats - for example, the new attack frigates have speeds of 400 / 410 / 420 / 430, targeting range of 22.5 / 25 / 27.5 / 30, etc. Some stats don't have exactly the same interval (I suspect sig 29 was too good on the Slasher), and some stats have a different pattern entirely (sensor strength), but there is a clear overall pattern. Within a single stat, the ships of a single class have a fixed rank by race - so speed is always Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr > Caldari, cap size is always Amarr > Gallente > Caldari > Minmatar, etc.

My question is: why is Caldari on the low end of almost every stat? They're 4th for speed, 4th for total HP, 3rd for sig radius, 3rd for PG, and 3rd for cap. To compensate they're 1st for CPU (good), 1st for targeting range (useful), and 1st for sensor strength. That's right, sensor strength. Not scan resolution - they're 4th for that too.

You way underestimate the power of missiles and mid slots. :)

Caldari is also supposed to be first for electronic warfare, and Minmatar fourth.

At the frigate level Caldari and Minmatar have the same slot layout. What exactly am I underestimating?

Dude what? Caldari ***** all over Minmatar at the frigate level:
- Hookbill >>>>>>> Firetail
- Hawk > Jag/Wolf
- Harpy > Jag/Wolf
- Griffin > Vigil
- New Griffin > New Vigil (lolpainter)
- Kitsune > Hyena
- Merlin > Rifter

Man the list goes on and on. But hey keep telling us how Caldari suck.

-Liang

MAULUS:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Sensor Damp effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Drone MWD velocity and Drone control range per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 4 M (+1), 3 L (+1), 2 turrets
Fittings: 26 PWG (+1), 230 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(-13) / 350(-1) / 400(+71)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 275 (+25)/ 150s (-37.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 375 (+69) / 3.25(-0.626) / 1063000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+10) / 30(+20)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64.5km (+14.5) / 520 (+100) / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 275 (+100)

I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time)

Dude what? Caldari ***** all over Minmatar at the frigate level:
- Hookbill >>>>>>> Firetail
- Hawk > Jag/Wolf
- Harpy > Jag/Wolf
- Griffin > Vigil
- New Griffin > New Vigil (lolpainter)
- Kitsune > Hyena
- Merlin > Rifter

Man the list goes on and on. But hey keep telling us how Caldari suck.

So TP doesn't make a target easier to hit for bigger guns?

CCP Fozzie,

I posted this in the destroyer thread for Ytterbium, but would appreciate your opinions on ship variation and uniqueness as well .... (I'd say maybe the racial EW bonuses should be a role bonus, and a ship bonus be added to add uniqueness in the case of EAFs)

---

I am concerned that ships undergoing re-balancing are starting to look a bit too.....standardized. While standardization makes balancing easier, it saps uniqueness and variation from the different races and ships within the same class.

The slot layouts for destroyers....8/2/3 or 8/3/2.
You did this also for the EAFs.....2/4/3 or 2/5/2.
All ships within these two classes also have bonuses that mirror each other (racially, of course)

Where's the variation? Why are there only 2 slot layouts per class instead of 3 or 4? Where's the destroyer that uses speed and damage to take out frigs, the destroyer that's slower but focuses on scram/web to take them out, and the destroyer that doesn't have the big damage but tanks the assault frigates better? (I'll refer to these as sub-roles)

Lets take Combat Recons for example. Same role, EW based. 4 different slot layouts. All have racial EW bonuses, but fight very different because of their sub-roles....Huginn based on slowing people down, Lachesis based on locking people down, Curse based on disabling ships down, and Rook based on jamming ships down. Shouldn't all ship classes try to be as varied and interesting?

Can you take some time to explain your philosophy on keeping ships within the same class unique, while making them balanced?

25PG With L5 Skills = 31.25 PG

1MN MWD (Meta) - 15 PG = 16.25 PG
LML II ................... - 8.1 PG x2 = .05 PG remaining

And where am i supposed to fit the Target Painter?

OR Meta 4 launchers 7.2x2 = 1.85 PG

So I can only fit 1 TP but have 3 mid slots open?

I think your PG on all the ships seems low TBH. Give them a boost so that they can actually have some fitting space. I understand these aren't DPS ships, but giving them the ability to fit 22 DPS or maybe some tank (God forbid) is hardly going to break them.

From the feedback you've been giving I'm preparing the next (and definitely not the last) set of slight tweaks to the ship design, including heavily considering giving the Griffin and the Vigil their drone buddies back. Will update the OP soon.

To answer a few specific concerns:

I don't think we'll be seeing the full speed of an old level 5 Vigil return. The only way to balance that kind of speed on a t1 ewar frigate is to make the ship otherwise suck, which isn't really the direction we want to go with it. If you are looking for a superfast tech one frigate I advise taking a peek at the new Slasher, it's pretty dope.

The idea of matching the painter bonus with a missile damage bonus was actually the first one on the table, but we rejected it mainly because painters have virtually no effect on frigate size missiles in practical use. Look for the idea to return at ship sizes where it can work more effectively.

That being said, part of the revamp of the EW frig class is that we want to make all of the ships viable for ewar, not just for being fast.

We also want to make TPs more usable in more situations, but that will primarily involve changes to the rest of the environment as opposed to changes to the TP module itself.

As for the fittings question, yes I do think we can reasonably increase the PG on the Vigil without causing problems. Main reason for the intentionally tight PG is to prevent people from too easily fitting heavy buffer tanks, but we may have pushed that a bit too far.

MAULUS:

Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Sensor Damp effectiveness per level
10% Bonus to Drone MWD velocity and Drone control range per level
Slot layout: 2 H (-1), 4 M (+1), 3 L (+1), 2 turrets
Fittings: 26 PWG (+1), 230 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300(-13) / 350(-1) / 400(+71)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 275 (+25)/ 150s (-37.5s)/ 1.8333333 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 375 (+69) / 3.25(-0.626) / 1063000
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+10) / 30(+20)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 64.5km (+14.5) / 520 (+100) / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 40 (-8)
Cargo capacity: 275 (+100)

This looks like a very fun ship to fly, add the TD effect to missile and it's gold.

Can I suggest a role bonus that limits or removes the stacking penalty for their special type of EWAR in small-medium groups?

So that, for example, a swarm of TP frigs can be overwhelming, but 1, 2 or 3 is not *that* big a deal.

They're frigates, they're supposed to be force of numbers, but with (non-ECM) modules - 4+ is irrelevant until they start exploding.

Edit: This would also help balance out the fact that ECM doesn't really suffer a stacking penalty, just weakly diminishing returns.

From the feedback you've been giving I'm preparing the next (and definitely not the last) set of slight tweaks to the ship design, including heavily considering giving the Griffin and the Vigil their drone buddies back. Will update the OP soon.

I'd rather make target painters good, but that's actually a fairly complex issue. (Doesn't make me any less interested in doing it, just means it might take some time)

I want gallente ships to viable in fleets, please stop excluding them by design

Caldari would receive a bonus to all module based EW (ECM, Remote Sensor Damping, Tracking disruption, etc...).
...
- Would be consider the "kings" of EW as their canon suggests.

Vigil: +5 dronebay and bandwidth, +1 pg, +1.5 km lockrange, +10 velocity, -2 signature radius

Look, I'm glad you've been open to suggestions...but I fear that you're inventing your own here.

Among which of the feedback posts have folks been saying, "Removing that drone nerfed the Vigil"? Correspondingly, giving it BACK doesn't change the fact that it's still lost a lowslot and the only useful bonus it had. Yay for 1 more PG (it could use another), but the rest is just laughable.

Look, I'm glad you've been open to suggestions...but I fear that you're inventing your own here.

Among which of the feedback posts have folks been saying, "Removing that drone nerfed the Vigil"? Correspondingly, giving it BACK doesn't change the fact that it's still lost a lowslot and the only useful bonus it had. Yay for 1 more PG (it could use another), but the rest is just laughable.

What about removing the actually harmful speed bonus on the maulus' drones? 50% velocity means light drones will lose tons of damage to overshooting

I still really like the concept of a drone "sniper" and feel it would have good synergy with damps, but for now we'll have to shelve the idea.

Bandwidth bonus for sentries?

Ie, something like a role bonus: -80% bandwidth need for sentry drones, -50% range to sentry drones, -50% damage to sentry drones

The Vigil changes are intentionally minor. We can keep tweaking as we go forward (especially as they hit the test server so people can try them out)

The Vigil won't be getting the 5% speed bonus back, sorry.

I still really like the concept of a drone "sniper" and feel it would have good synergy with damps, but for now we'll have to shelve the idea.

I'm happy with receptiveness to change so far, so I'm confident progress can be made. :)

And I'm not crushed about the speed loss, to be honest. It's sad, but as long as it is replaced with a reasonable alternative, then there's no net loss.

The problem, as you're seeing here, is that it just hasn't been replaced with a real alternative. Sorry. Maybe CCP sees something in TPs that the rest of us don't? You clearly hit the mark with the Crucifier (seriously!) and the Griffin; Maulus is about 75%, in my eyes; I just don't see why anybody would fly this current iteration of the Vigil.

Yep it needs a web range bonus. Make it a mini Huginn. Then it'll actually be useful.

my thoughts exactly (see previous page).
would not turn into a mini huginn, because missing the missiles but it would turn into a "better bang for buck" hyena.

Can you please comment on why the Malaus does not have the largest drone bay? You gave the Executioner 3 flights of drones while the Malaus only has 1.5.

Having lower drone bandwidth but larger bays is a racial trait of Amarr droneships. See the Sentinel or Arbitrator for similar layouts.

The Maulus' more focused role will be better, imho. The drone role was a nice idea and I like when ships stand out from their counter parts in a class, but from a cohesive perspective it was definitely turning into more of a gimmick bonus than anything with any serious gravity to it.

Having lower drone bandwidth but larger bays is a racial trait of Amarr droneships. See the Sentinel or Arbitrator for similar layouts.

So, what then is the usefulness of the race that specializes in Drones, and is supposed use them as a secondary weapon?
....
A drone sniper while sounding cool, is completely useless using anything but sentry drones.

Griffin: +5 dronebay and bandwidth
Maulus: Changed bonus to damp cap use, +2 pg
Vigil: +5 dronebay and bandwidth, +1 pg, +1.5 km lockrange, +10 velocity, -2 signature radius

The OP has been updated with these changes.

Having lower drone bandwidth but larger bays is a racial trait of Amarr droneships. See the Sentinel or Arbitrator for similar layouts.

I don't get the hate TP's get..

People do realize that Sig is a part of the tracking equation right? It does not just help big stuff hit small stuff..

Things like lock time issues (or tracking) are rather secondary benefits, all things considered. A ship fitted with RSBs can apply benefits directly to friendly ships throughout an entire fight. A ship with TPs must first lock a target and then apply a TP (which might miss), and then the remaining ships must lock and target that one. That's one step too many in the midst of a fight; it has no direct support or disruptive power. It is purely "supplementary", but not in a way that makes it substantially threatening.

I hear there is this rebalancing effort. Hopefully it can buck this trend and make Gallente ships more versatile ;-)

We also want to make TPs more usable in more situations, but that will primarily involve changes to the rest of the environment as opposed to changes to the TP module itself.

If I were a betting man I'd say the tracking formula is on the operating table.

Having lower drone bandwidth but larger bays is a racial trait of Amarr droneships. See the Sentinel or Arbitrator for similar layouts.

I think you missed the tormentor with this philosophy. It only has 10/10.

I had originally tested the +50% bonus and found that as long as you don't fit any navigation computers on top of the bonus the drones responded quite well against most targets. Going back and retesting with shuttles and pods found that the problem still existed for the really small hitboxes.

So as I posted above we're dropping the drone speed bonus and replacing it with a cap use bonus for damps.

I still really like the concept of a drone "sniper" and feel it would have good synergy with damps, but for now we'll have to shelve the idea.

Tormentor isn't considered a true Amarr droneboat, it's a gunboat that also has a significant dronebay as a secondary weapon, like the Armageddon.

And yes I know this can get somewhat complicated, but in the end the main goals are always balance and interesting gameplay. The racial traits are useful guidelines to help towards those goals.

Understood but your racial guidelines for Amarr drone boats are consistent across the board (i.e. 3:1 ratio). For Gallente you have the Vexor at 1.33, the Eos, Ishkur, and Myrmidon at 2, the Dominix, Ishtar, and Utu at 3, and the Dominix Navy Issue and Sin at 3.2 (seems to be the case for T2 and faction drone boats except for the Ishtar).

My pattern recognition implant is malfunctioning and I can not discern a guideline for any race other than Amarr. Can you please state the drone boat guidelines for each of the races. I'm looking forward to the complicated equation for Gallente ;-)

It's simply what would be balanced for the ship itself. Generally the Gallente extra dronebay improves as the the ships get larger and more advanced but that's not in stone.
I can say for instance that I'm going to be introducing an entirely new ratio for that list before the end of the week. Sorry in advance.

Should I start drinking now to drown my sorrows? Maybe poor one out for Gallente ?-)

Oh I really like the ship, but it doesn't fit any established bandwidth/dronebay ratio that's all.

It's simply what would be balanced for the ship itself. Generally the Gallente extra dronebay improves as the the ships get larger and more advanced but that's not in stone.
I can say for instance that I'm going to be introducing an entirely new ratio for that list before the end of the week. Sorry in advance.

The issue with TPs are particularly with rapiers huginns and lokis, webs reach out to the ranges you want to shoot (in general). Painters have half the power of webs (so they do very nice things for missiles and large guns), but in most situations if you have a dedicated minmatar ewar boat, webs are more useful in the range you want to fight.

Its not that they are weak, but its that they do the same things as webs (dps wise) and just have silly range. Introduce that highslot TP module, and I am sure everyone will be using painters

Except they don't quite do the same thing as webs. The thing about reducing transversal velocity (webs) is that it gets reduced for both you and your opponent, giving you both an edge in dps (assuming you're both using turrets.) Target painters give you an accuracy boost /without/ also giving that boost to your opponent.

They still could use a bit of a boost, though.

Thats only true if you are both orbiting each other and have identical tracking. In the case of say, a dual prop SFI webbed by a frigate, the SFI is going to be heating its ab away from the frigate in an attempt to drop transversal as much as possible, and the web is going to make this less effective.

Balance is fine and dandy, but consider the logistics of flying a drone(ish) ship where you essentially have one set of drones. Because currently you get 1.5 sets.

If anything happens, anything at all, and you lose that one flight, you are done. Finito. Go back to base and restock. You are out of the fleet, you are out of the gang. By the time you go back, reload, and fly back, the gang will have moved on and you'll spend 40 mins playing catch-up. I know because I've done it.

And it can be anything. The drones, which have unbuffed HP by the way, die ludicrously easy. Direct fire, other drones (perhaps from a ship where drones are only a small percentage of overall DPS), smartbombs, what have you. Heck, I could be forced to warp out without having time for the drones to slowly work their way back. In any of these scenarios that's the end of the roam for me. I gotta pack up and go home and get some new drones, or hope to god there's some for sale somewhere in a nearby system. Which doesn't really work during a roam in hostile space in FW as I can't dock in enemy stations anyhow.

See the issue?

Balance is good and all, but remember that real, non-insane people are going to try to use this boat at some point. Maybe. And this kind of stuff will drive them bananas. And this is just icing, on top of an otherwise giant drone cake (poor UI, bad AI, destructible, can't overheat for more damage/faster travel/more range, slowest damage projection of any weapon system, etc., etc).

(1) How is sensor strength decided on? Is it racial or based on other factors? Vigil has lower sensor strength than the crucifier, but the typhoon has higher sensor strength than the armageddon for instance.

(2) Compared to battleship, these frigates also have interesting increments. For instance the domi and scorpion have high sensor strengths (22, 23), whereas the armageddon and typhoon have low sensor strengths (17, 18). For the frigates the increment is just +2 each time.

Sensor Strength and Lock Range:
Caldari > Gallente > Amarr > Minmatar

That was kind of my point, earlier. Targeting range can be useful, but mostly in sniper-fits. Sensor strength, not so much - it only matters when a player tries to ECM you.
Also, did you know that T1 ships get +10% racial armor resists? Can you guess which race is most heavily biased towards shields?

How about these frigs get a bonus to the new ewar drones? Some of them are still totally useless. What if a bonus to the ships were "ewar drones have no stacking penalty" and "20% bonus to the factor of ewar drones strength pr level".

We all know that the dronebays will just be filled up with Warrior II's, and the ewar drones will never be used. But what if the Maulus could send a flight of SD drones that had the effectiveness of half or two thirds a sensor damper. I would use them...

The problem with ewar drones is that they stack nerf...
-Liang

Like many stated before: Target Painters suck, they suck hard for a frigate. Painters are the weakest e-war (if it can be called e-war at all), and it doesn't help this ship an a 1vs1, as the other e-war-frigates' bonuses do. Having its bonus this way poor Vigil wil rarely ever be used, as it only helps others.

Minmatar's real e-war is webs, webs, webs! This is exactly what Vigils T2 variant, Hyena does. Why shouldn't the Vigil get a web bonus? If a web range bonus should interfere with the hyena's role maybe a web strenght bonus would be viable. or a moderate mix of both.

It makes me sad thet CCP is so stubborn in this concern

Web strength, are you for real?

Well, range would make the hyena somewhat obsolete, especially due to the cheaper vigil. If it were web strength, then one could penalize the vigil with less/least frig hp.

How about a very small range bonus to Warp Scrambler instead (to reach a max of some 12km'ish range)?
Now that would be disruption heh.
I'm not against webbing bonuses in general, but hyena should keep that aspect. Nonetheless, EAF will get their love too.

The optimal range bonus for TDs on the crucifier is kind of redundant, given the fact that they already have pretty huge optimals anyway.....

It's page ten and several posts in. While plenty of people are fine with the changes, many have expresses concern over TP as a Minmatar bonus. This has taken place in this thread and many others.

CCP Fozzie, thank you for replying to so many in this thread. I appreciated every dev post. It seems clear that you don't agree with the TP change or do not have the authority to change it. Could you at least counter debate my points?

1. In this time of drastic change, isn't this a good time to consider changing the Minmatar EWar?

2. EWar ships are directly protected by direct disruption. TP is not direct disruption. Doesn't that leave it directly unprotected? Is this not a fallacy in applying ship design philosophy?

I actually recall when the bonuses on these ships where changed to EWar. Caldari was not always the ECM race. The Scorpion was not always an ECM boat.

3. Would it not be a smaller change to switch one type of EWar for another than to reduce all EWar down to one?

I read about the Minmatar missile buff coming in the future. They are set to have a TP bonus on those missile ships. I expect they Typhoon to retain its strong defense. By CCP standards, this will be the second EWar BS.

4. Doesn't a Phoon with a strong defense and offence break the EWar design philosophy that says the opposite?

5. With this new initiative, doesn't it make sense to give a TP bonus to the Breacher? Wouldn't it out shine and be more useful than the TP Vigil? Wouldn't the total small gang or fleet damage be greater with fully revamped TP Breachers in most cases?