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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Marconus Orion
Global Criminal Countdown
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Posted - 2011.03.14 05:43:00 -
[1711]
The Cylon invasion is getting out of hand. 
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Paul Mustaka Hekard
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Posted - 2011.03.14 05:49:00 -
[1712]
Just spent the day hanging out in a 0.9 sec system. Watched a fleet of bestowers run non-stop; same guys. No response to bumping, targeting, convo, etc. Checked the belts; the only two hulk pilots I found had no response to bumping, convo, identical warp-in patterns. No matter how much I bumped them back, they just pushing towards those 'roids.
Pretty sickening to realize that in a system with 15 to 20 toons in it, I was the only one that wasn't a macro. While I realized that macros were in use, until I started looking around, I didn't realize how flagrant and widespread it was; hell these guys use names that were rolled off of an assembly line. There is no conceivable way that CCP can not be aware of the hot-spots. It is not like they are hard to find. Once again; disgusting and dispiriting.
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.14 06:01:00 -
[1713]
 Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Heh 4 major games sites reporting on RMT, Botting and EvE.
Can't be good for CCP's reputation.
It gives them a bad reputation compared to what games?, most/all of the major mmo's have bot/RMT problems. Blizzzard spend most of the last expansion trying to fight hackers stealing gold from players and guilds, i've not played aion online but from what i've heard they also have huge problems with bots.
It gives them a bad reputation because the other companies you cited are actively fighting against that behavior instead of condoning it (if not enabling it) like CCP does.
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dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.14 07:33:00 -
[1714]
Edited by: dexington on 14/03/2011 07:34:22
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
It gives them a bad reputation because the other companies you cited are actively fighting against that behavior instead of condoning it (if not enabling it) like CCP does.
Blizzard has the most played mmo in the world and they have just as many problems with bots, and alot more problems with account getting hacked. It got bad in TBC and alot worse in WOTLK, i stopped playing wow in the last weeks of WOTLK and the situation was pretty much this, people where complaining that they received scam emails, scam messages in-game, accounts hacked cleaned out and used as bots, bots being active weeks after they had been reported, and the list goes on.
The trade channel was constantly filled with spam from RMT sites, and RMT sites even used exploits to make character float in the air so they could use them to make animated 3D advertisements in the major cities. People reporting bots by name had their threads closed by admins for breaking the naming and shaming rules, and if treads got a response it was always something like "we are working on the problem.".
If they are actively fighting bots and rmt it have had no effect for the previous 2 expansions where things just got worse and worse, the only reason things seem better in wow is because they don't have the same player driven market as eve.
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pcydo
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Posted - 2011.03.14 15:14:00 -
[1715]
Free bump because bots are still there.
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000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
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Posted - 2011.03.14 18:04:00 -
[1716]
Originally by: Cyrus Doul
ibtl
Hehe i had to post this beauty.. post number 2... Boy were u wrong! 
but back on topic... personally i'd like to see the gtc for isk thing go away as well, way too easy to abuse your daddies platinum card and get a leg up in eve... 
________________________________________________
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Crucis Cassiopeiae
Amarr
PORSCHE AG
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Posted - 2011.03.14 22:15:00 -
[1717]
Originally by: riverini
Edited by: riverini on 11/03/2011 16:06:28
title fixed...
noooooo...
that was a feature of this thread...
_______________________________________________
"Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac) |
Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.03.14 23:22:00 -
[1718]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: DonHel
Is there any way to report bots and actually have something done, or do we have to watch them do it everyday and just live with it. And just occasionally pop their hulks/covetors/retrievers and watch thier pods warp back n forth? I have been watching someones bots for like 10 days now, and am planning to gank them to hell everyday for a bit. But it's in a 0.8 so i can only do it so much before i become an eveil pirate dude bieng shot at by gate guns n such lol
Part of what we're trying to get done is achieving precisely this. As I said, solving the problem has multiple angles to it, one of which is being able to properly follow through and action on reports by players and on top of that repeat offenders. It's not to say there's not some of this going on today but it could be done a lot better. We have a solution to that and as soon as we're ready to implement (like REALLY soon) I'll let you guys know.
Hey Sreegs,
First, welcome to CCP and welcome to one heck of a grumble and gripe session on behalf of human players. I sincerely appreciate you taking time out of your day to read and respond to many of the concerns that have been raised here in this thread. Your contributions to this thread, to CCP and to solving the problem are welcomed and encouraged. For some time now we have asked CCP for a 'right-click -> report bot' kind of solution. Lacking that, as you may know, I implemented a website (www.reportbots.com) to aid players in filing the petitions CCP can then use to help resolve the problems in whatever ways they can. Having worked with the GMs to ascertain their needs and continually working with the players to ascertain their needs, I came up with the best solution I could not working for CCP myself ;)
I'm presuming from your responses here that all will be revealed (well, 'all' being relative lol) at and after fanfest. I look forward to finding out the steps CCP are taking and how we, as players, may be able to help reinforce the initiative CCP puts forth. I have noticed an elevated response by CCP to this problem in a more general way recently - in short many of the bots being reported are being taken seriously and many of them have gone away from the game for days and weeks now. So, Kudos to CCP for producing some results I can see.
As you yourself have stated this isn't a problem that came about overnight and I think we all understand it isn't a problem that will go away overnight either. It's a cat and mouse game - and you're the cat (unless, of course, you prefer to squeak)! :) That being said, I also want to note that your presence here in the forums, while not a paid activity of your position with CCP, is very sincerely appreciated. As a new(er) member of CCP and one of the few to ever respond in a real way to this problem, you, unfortunately, are getting the brunt of frustration some players have been expressing for years, all rolled down into one post ;) Please forgive us if we offend you - our frustration is not with you, per se, it is with CCP and the (apparent) lack of commitment from them. Your presence at CCP, and the presence of a team of security professionals working on the bot and exploit problem is, at long last, reassuring to those of us whose fists of rage are yet not enough to rid the universe of the scummy underbelly that has invaded it.
In short... keep up the great work bud! And hurry up with a right-click -> report bot solution eh? I have other things I could be doing with that web space and domain... err... not sure what... reportbots.com is kinda specific after all... but I'll come up with something ;) lol.
I look forward to reading and hearing more from your team and CCP on how they will address this problem moving forward. Thank you for your efforts to both quell the growing tide of disdain and to help us to help you to help CCP rid this otherwise awesome game of it's scourge.
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Kireiina
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Posted - 2011.03.15 02:37:00 -
[1719]
Originally by: Freelanc3r
Hi riverini
Look how dumb you are considering the NC are the biggest RMT buyers on iskbank, perhaps you should start with your own alliance then your coalition first.
If they are buying isk they are probably not botting.
If they are buying isk the only person who should really care is CCP because they're not getting their cut compared to the legal way of buying isk.
The problem is the bots that generated that Isk and generated game-breaking amounts of resources making it pointless for human players to compete.
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.15 03:42:00 -
[1720]
Originally by: Consortium Agent
A big post that I can't quote :(
Hey guy thanks for the kind words. I didn't run away from the thread or anything there's just
A) Only so much to say at the moment with Fanfest a week or so away
B) A lot more of you guys than there are of me
C) I was traveling last week which minimizes my posting time
I was aware of your site and found it very useful from a few perspectives that if I don't remember to mention at Fanfest I'll be happy to discuss with you in person if you're attending. If not just bump the thread after or post in the dev blog and I'll get into some more detail. |
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.03.15 03:45:00 -
[1721]
Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 15/03/2011 03:45:55
Originally by: 0Lona 0ltor
CCP is a disgrace. When is the next EVE convention in the UK I plan to go dressed as a bot/robot and **** all CCP persons off. Would be epic if we ruined a meeting and got in the game mags as a protest against CCP not tackling the bot problem.
I will buy a beer for the first person I see dressed as a robot at Fanfest. (not because you're mad but because I like robots) |
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.03.15 04:51:00 -
[1722]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Consortium Agent
A big post that I can't quote :(
Hey guy thanks for the kind words. I didn't run away from the thread or anything there's just
A) Only so much to say at the moment with Fanfest a week or so away
B) A lot more of you guys than there are of me
C) I was traveling last week which minimizes my posting time
I was aware of your site and found it very useful from a few perspectives that if I don't remember to mention at Fanfest I'll be happy to discuss with you in person if you're attending. If not just bump the thread after or post in the dev blog and I'll get into some more detail.
Sadly I have a prior commitment to teach an Adobe OOP code camp this month so I will be unable to attend fanfest :( Sad panda. I'd have dressed like a robot (plastered with reportbots.com, ofc) just for the beer too! lol
I'll hit ya up after fanfest and get the details if you don't mention them elsewhere. Thanks again!
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PC l0adletter
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Posted - 2011.03.15 07:46:00 -
[1723]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Consortium Agent
A big post that I can't quote :(
Hey guy thanks for the kind words. I didn't run away from the thread or anything there's just
A) Only so much to say at the moment with Fanfest a week or so away
B) A lot more of you guys than there are of me
C) I was traveling last week which minimizes my posting time
I was aware of your site and found it very useful from a few perspectives that if I don't remember to mention at Fanfest I'll be happy to discuss with you in person if you're attending. If not just bump the thread after or post in the dev blog and I'll get into some more detail.
Heya, Sreegs,
Can you comment on the six bots in ETO-OT, Spire, that have been merrily logged in 23/7? They were petitioned and discussed over a month ago in the EN24 article. Here's the screenshot with the names: http://evenews24.com/riverini/other_guys/fromage/2011.02.06.05.59.jpg
They're still there, farming away.
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Florestan Bronstein
Amarr
Taishi Combine
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Posted - 2011.03.15 08:24:00 -
[1724]
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 15/03/2011 08:31:24
Originally by: PC l0adletter
Heya, Sreegs,
Can you comment on the six bots in ETO-OT, Spire, that have been merrily logged in 23/7? They were petitioned and discussed over a month ago in the EN24 article. Here's the screenshot with the names: http://evenews24.com/riverini/other_guys/fromage/2011.02.06.05.59.jpg
They're still there, farming away.
Looking at his prior posts he probably does not care.
... at least not in the way you want him to care.
5 bots are just a drop in the ocean and how does manually banning them solve the problem of botting? it doesn't.
A few days ago I spent about 30 minutes to write a Python script that solved a task I could have done manually in 5-10 minutes.
It even is relatively unlikely I will have to do the same task again in the near future (as the task was fairly specialized) but now I feel like I have truly "solved" the problem (I even included error handling for errors that I knew would not happen in that one specialized set of data) whereas doing the same stuff manually would have felt like a cheap workaround.
Of course you can spend a lot of man-hours on investigating and banning bots manually but as long as you think you have a good idea how to automate this process you won't - and from a purely technical perspective it doesn't really matter whether you need 1 week, 1 month or half a year to implement this solution as long as you know that it can be done.
Throwing bandaids at the problem might provide some temporary relief but it won't solve the problem at all - so why bother spending your resources on the development of bandaids when you can spend the same time on the development of a solution?
Now you will bring up tons of reasonable arguments about banning these bots having a high symbolic value, of EVE bleeding to death before a solution can be found if no bandaids are applied in time, ... but it is not my purpose to convince anyone that the approach outlined above is the right one to take, I just want to illustrate a certain train of thought that tends to be very popular with programmers (imo partly due to them often having a strong maths/applied maths/CS background).
If I look at the problem of botting I see three main challenges:
(a) create gameplay incentives that discourage botting
(b) identify bots
(c) link bots to larger botting/RMT operations
(a) is the job of the game designers
(c) does probably involve a lot of manual work (that is assisted by automated auditing tools).
(b) is an interesting challenge.
You can either concentrate on automated identification of bots or you can concentrate on handling reports by players in the most efficient manner possible (you can't do everything at once as resources are always limited).
In my pipe dreams I would want to design a system that takes reports from players, looks for any patterns in the reported character's actions (much, much harder than it sounds), if it finds any "meaningful" (but what would make them meaningful?) patterns compares these to its set of already known patterns and if new "learns" them to use them in its own automated scanning sweeps for bot activity. (With different patterns having different weights based on GM experience, analysis of bots and prevalence of these patterns in user reports).
Humans (players, GMs) are really good at pattern detection but using humans for detection is a solution that won't scale all that well (automated solution: high initial investment but low marginal cost).
... but that's just my rather lengthy 2 cents.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.15 08:36:00 -
[1725]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
5 bots are just a drop in the ocean and how does manually banning them solve the problem of botting? it doesn't.
I think the point is that these bots have been petitioned multiple times and are still there.
As things stand it does NOT appear possible to get a bot permabanned unless they're involved in RMT.
That's the problem. Whats the point in petitioning when the "punishment" is nothing more than a temporary inconvenience?
That's why botting in Eve is endemic and it will continue to be so until running a bot is viewed as something more than a minor infraction of the rules.
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ArtieLange
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Posted - 2011.03.15 10:51:00 -
[1726]
Did that AFK cloaking alliance ever kick off? I've got an alt I will never use for anything productive that's now in a cov-ops. I might be tempted to sit griefing people all day.
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Erick Odin
Amarr
Local-Spike
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Posted - 2011.03.15 11:17:00 -
[1727]
tbh all you guys in highsec making billions is total safety resemble bots to me. just saying.
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dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.15 11:25:00 -
[1728]
Originally by: Erick Odin
tbh all you guys in highsec making billions is total safety resemble bots to me. just saying.
0/10
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.03.15 12:13:00 -
[1729]
the Bot University page on eveBots is wholly inaccurate. all of these items have even been gone over multiple times in this very thread.
but, lets do it again... (sigh)
* This character is mining ore/ice from the time the server comes up until the time the server goes down.
YES! this is the ticket item. while some people may play for many hours on occasion, a high frequency of 23/7 play is a definite.
* This character exhibits no response to being bumped by my ship.
NO! most real players mine AFK. one only needs to interact with their mining character every few minutes at most, every 10 minutes at least. so bumping chars proves nothing.
* This character refuses to accept chat requests.
NO! people mine solo b/c they don't feel like being bothered. especially by random people. plus, as mentioned above, people mine AFK. so not accepting you're chat goes hand in hand. i even have a high (like 5m) charge to email me....
* This character warps away (usually to another belt) when approached.
NO! there are so many pirates and griefers out there that real players will do the same.
* This character mines only one or two types of ore.
NO! mining crystals force people to only mine one or two things.
* This character only mines high yielding ores like dense, massive, etc.
NO! i would ponder that this is more likely a trait of real players than bots - as bots would need OCR to pick out the good stuff. possible, but regardless real players tend to focus on the higher yield stuff as well.
* This character repeatedly warps to empty belts.
NO! if you're talking the same belt over and over, then yeah; though it may be someone not really paying attention to what they are doing (playing afk). but merely going to a number of empty belts is more a matter of trying to find a good place to mine. further, i really can't see bots not keeping track of which belts it found to be empty - its not like that would be hard to do.
* This character is part of a larger group of bots that do not mine together.
MAYBE! if you see a number of miners from the same corp all solo mining... then maybe. but this may be that they aren't big in splitting in their profits (you still mine the same amount whether in a group or not, difference is in a group you are depending on others to pay as much or more attention to match what would have been your solo profit) and only group mine during corp ops...
note: i know some genius will come along and say "you earn more while fleet boosted" or something equally ******ed... the answer: you can be fleet boosted but not mining in a group.
* This character repeats a cycle of mining in one belt, returning to station, and then mining in a different belt.
NO! if it weren't for pirates then i would call this a maybe. but when solo mining you don't drop cans, you go back to the station... at which point who cares which belt they go back to? they;re all the same... and if playing semi-afk you probably don't care to keep track either.
so.... you have one right, all the rest could merely be real people mining semi-afk. so at best you have a list of "could be a bot, but is just as likely to be a real player." short of 23/7 game play at least. I just hope that your site opens your eyes to how difficult it actually is to find real bots...
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Erick Odin
Amarr
Local-Spike
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Posted - 2011.03.15 12:27:00 -
[1730]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Erick Odin
tbh all you guys in highsec making billions is total safety resemble bots to me. just saying.
0/10
dude don't post your killboard stats here nobody cares
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.03.15 12:40:00 -
[1731]
* This character is always online fighting PVE rats from server up to server down.
* This character always docks up or logs off whenever a neutral enters the system.
* This character fails to respond to requests for chat.
* This character gets stuck in warp bubbles I've placed in their suspected area of operation.
* This character remains in the same system from the time they log on until the time they log off.
* This character is part of a larger group of characters who fight NPC bots but in largely different locations.
this sounds about like every nullsec alliance out there. again, only definite here is playing 23/7 ....
as for the hualers... i've never been a hauler so i don't know. but i did notice something contradictory: in one point you say they run hauler missions, but then you say they don't create nor accept any contracts.. if you're running missions you're not accepting contracts. not sure what these two have to do with each other. and what does amarr have to do with haulers? really, i'm asking.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.15 12:48:00 -
[1732]
Edited by: Othran on 15/03/2011 12:50:00
On detection of ratbots (ratting bots) :
I don't really understand what the "technical issue" is here.
Every time you kill a rat you get a bounty and/or sec standing increase. Now I know that sec status only goes to +5 these days but there's no reason why the increases couldn't be logged if required.
So as a first pass to filtering who's potentially running a ratbot you run a monthly check of total bounties per day/week on the playerbase. I'm assuming that data can be easily extracted by CCP and used "offline". Once your automated filter pulls out the top 5% of bounty earners then you enable logging of sec standing increases for those players (or ratbots). A week or so of data will show whether its a normal human being or not. Edit - obviously bounties wouldn't work for drone regions, but TBH they need attention anyway - both in the sense of ratbots and in the sense of being horrible places to live.
Now you've got a list of people who are either botting or account sharing. If its account sharing then that should be fairly easy to identify as the same peaks/troughs of rats killed will appear over time - or IP addresses/login times.
This is the point CCP should be handing the list to your senior GMs and get them to go have a look at how the player/ratbot behaves when something that isn't blue comes into system.
Its not rocket science. It does require a willingness to enforce the rules though.
Fanfest isn't far off anyway so we'll see whether that willingness exists.
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dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.15 13:01:00 -
[1733]
Originally by: Othran
Edited by: Othran on 15/03/2011 12:50:00
On detection of ratbots (ratting bots) :
I don't really understand what the "technical issue" is here.
Every time you kill a rat you get a bounty and/or sec standing increase. Now I know that sec status only goes to +5 these days but there's no reason why the increases couldn't be logged if required.
So as a first pass to filtering who's potentially running a ratbot you run a monthly check of total bounties per day/week on the playerbase. I'm assuming that data can be easily extracted by CCP and used "offline". Once your automated filter pulls out the top 5% of bounty earners then you enable logging of sec standing increases for those players (or ratbots). A week or so of data will show whether its a normal human being or not. Edit - obviously bounties wouldn't work for drone regions, but TBH they need attention anyway - both in the sense of ratbots and in the sense of being horrible places to live.
Now you've got a list of people who are either botting or account sharing. If its account sharing then that should be fairly easy to identify as the same peaks/troughs of rats killed will appear over time - or IP addresses/login times.
This is the point CCP should be handing the list to your senior GMs and get them to go have a look at how the player/ratbot behaves when something that isn't blue comes into system.
Its not rocket science. It does require a willingness to enforce the rules though.
Fanfest isn't far off anyway so we'll see whether that willingness exists.
It would be easy to spot 1 bot running for 23 hours, but how would you spot 10 bots running for 2.3 hours each?. Aslong as gametime is payed with isk it don't really matter for botters if they need to pay 300M or 3B a months, the bots are still going to make a huge profit.
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ArtieLange
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Posted - 2011.03.15 13:38:00 -
[1734]
Originally by: Othran
Its not rocket science. It does require a willingness to enforce the rules though.
Therein lies the issue.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.15 14:29:00 -
[1735]
Originally by: dexington
It would be easy to spot 1 bot running for 23 hours, but how would you spot 10 bots running for 2.3 hours each?. Aslong as gametime is payed with isk it don't really matter for botters if they need to pay 300M or 3B a months, the bots are still going to make a huge profit.
You know this continual "don't do anything for that's not going to work" approach from you is making you look REALLY bad don't you? I hope you're aware of that even if you are an alt. This is the last time I bother replying to you, life's too short 
Anyway the 10 botters run by one guy are probably RMT. As such you can be sure CCP will have thought of ways as RMT is their (current) sole focus.
What I suggested would be enough to catch people who leave their bot running while they work, then log onto main for the evening. If those people then have to resort to multiple accounts then it makes running the accounts a lot harder.
I think honest players would welcome that.
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dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.03.15 14:47:00 -
[1736]
If you can't handle critique the internet is a dangerous place to post your ideas, not everyone will agree that half measures is a solid solution. I only pointed out an obvious and easy to exploit weakness in your plan, i never say that nothing should or should not be done.
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.03.15 17:31:00 -
[1737]
Originally by: Othran
You know this continual "don't do anything for that's not going to work" approach from you is making you look REALLY bad don't you? I hope you're aware of that even if you are an alt. This is the last time I bother replying to you, life's too short
Anyway the 10 botters run by one guy are probably RMT. As such you can be sure CCP will have thought of ways as RMT is their (current) sole focus.
What I suggested would be enough to catch people who leave their bot running while they work, then log onto main for the evening. If those people then have to resort to multiple accounts then it makes running the accounts a lot harder.
I think honest players would welcome that.
1. someone poking holes in your ideas does not make them look bad. passing thoughts around like this are good IMO. but on the other hand they serve as a potential resource for the bot writers on how to avoid detection......
2. people botting for 8 hours a day would not equal being top of that list. further, at a straight shot, a mothership ratting for a few hours a day would likely end up higher on your list than a bot running 23/7. cross reference highest earner with those who played the most and you're likely on to something. but still not accurate nor inclusive.. at least *an* approach..
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Elanor Vega
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Posted - 2011.03.15 23:24:00 -
[1738]
As topic regarding ISK-bank is redirecting all further posts to here now... bump... and quote last version of first post in that topic...
Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 15/03/2011 22:42:48
RMT and botting related discussion is now continuing on this thread.
Please try not to reply here anymore.
Thank you :)
Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 14/03/2011 08:39:13
Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com exposed
http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/09/in-isk-we-trust-iskbank-com-exposed-thousand-of-customers-outed/
Evenews24.com - Client list
http://www.evenews24.com/2010/03/09/iskbank-com-client-list/
Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com/ru Client List: Revised Edition
http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/11/iskbank-com-client-list-revised-edition/
Evenews24.com - official revised Iskbank customer list @ googledocs
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atu22IqpENk5dFMzMzAwWTdNX1lXelVpUUFlOWt0U1E&hl=en&authkey=CNK1-84L
Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com: The Vadim Interview
http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/14/iskbank-com-the-vadim-interview/
Evenews24.com article - Customers speak out
http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/10/iskbank-com-customers-speak-out/
GM Grimmi's comment about the issue
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1479579&page=5#132
Related:
CCP Sreegs posts about rmt, botting and upcoming announcements in fanfest.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1426740/author/CCP%20Sreegs
TenTonHammer article - The Daily Grind: Have you ever bought gold?
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/12/the-daily-grind-have-you-ever-bought-gold/
Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com Exposed: CSM Candidates Respond
http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/14/iskbank-com-exposed-csm-candidates-respond/
Elsewhere:
Massively article - EVE ISK buyers outed in database leak
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/10/eve-isk-buyers-outed-in-database-leak/#
Slashdot article - In Isk We Trust: the EVE Online IskBank Exposed
http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/03/10/1712207/In-Isk-We-Trust-the-EVE-Online-IskBank-Exposed
mmorpg.com article - EVE Online News - Iskbank.com Exposed
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/19890/Iskbankcom-Exposed
TenTonHammer article - EVENews24 Exposes Iskbank Scandal, Thousands of Customers Outed
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/96325
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.03.16 02:49:00 -
[1739]
Originally by: Arnakoz
Edited by: Arnakoz on 15/03/2011 12:40:44
the Bot University page on reportBots is wholly inaccurate. all of these items have even been gone over multiple times in this very thread.
but, lets do it again... (sigh)
Let's not. Either you didn't read any of my posts in this forum or you didn't read the entire university page, but in either case let me address your question thusly:
You are treating each individual item as exactly that - an individual item. It is not one individual item but the combination of behaviors exhibited by these bots that make them so detectable. Furthermore, your post assumes I am instructing people to make judgments in a given amount of time, which I'm not. Patterns of behaviors make take minutes, hours or days to verify depending on the complexity of the bot, but they are virtually unmistakable once you see the patterns. Humans do not operate in the same way bots do, and I will not argue the merits of pattern detection over your list of reasons why you feel all of the behaviors being exhibited are wholly inaccurate.
In short, the university page clearly indicates it is patterns of behavior one should be observing, not one particular activity which amounts to a smoking gun. Even being on 23/7 isn't always a good indicator - for one, I tend to fall asleep with my game running (cuz I'm just that much of a geek to fall asleep playing Eve!) - for another I've had times where I've been able to play damn near 23/7. So, yes, there is a counter-argument to be made for each and every single behavior or activity I'm instructing people to be aware of, but I'm also clearly stating that it is the patterns of behavior which give away the bots, not any one single behavior. Take your list and combine them into activities being exhibited by one single player, repeatedly, with a visible pattern, over time, and then make your arguments again :)
For what it's worth, the system won't even take a report unless it meets a certain criteria of behaviors. If the behaviors selected don't pass the mustard, the user is notified and given a link to the university page to learn more about how to spot bots.
So, thanks for taking my bulleted items and reposting them here for me ;) Now please go read the words in-between them for the full picture.
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.03.16 03:05:00 -
[1740]
Originally by: Arnakoz
* This character is always online fighting PVE rats from server up to server down.
* This character always docks up or logs off whenever a neutral enters the system.
* This character fails to respond to requests for chat.
* This character gets stuck in warp bubbles I've placed in their suspected area of operation.
* This character remains in the same system from the time they log on until the time they log off.
* This character is part of a larger group of characters who fight NPC bots but in largely different locations.
this sounds about like every nullsec alliance out there. again, only definite here is playing 23/7 ....
as for the hualers... i've never been a hauler so i don't know. but i did notice something contradictory: in one point you say they run hauler missions, but then you say they don't create nor accept any contracts.. if you're running missions you're not accepting contracts. not sure what these two have to do with each other. and what does amarr have to do with haulers? really, i'm asking.
More no reading between the lines here. See my earlier post for an answer to your first question.
As for the haulers - it's very simple. Most human haulers make use of the contract system either for purchasing or selling items, or more likely to accept and complete courier contracts. If they are not creating or accepting any contracts, this can be a good indicator of a toon which may be using a bot when combined with the other behaviors, such as running missions 23/7, etc. in a repetitive pattern.
What does Amarr have to do with haulers? Another good, but simply answered question. Please take a look at all of the different faction haulers and tell me which one you would be most likely to choose to run L1 - L4 missions 23/7 in, and why. That will probably answer your question better than me just telling you that Amarr haulers are the most convenient for that purpose.
And when you're done with all of that... take a fly down to Kronsur (it's in empire). Spend a little time in the system. Tell me how many of those toons you see flying in and out of there back to back to back that *you* think are bots based on the behaviors I've listed on the university page. How do you know?
And lastly, nobody has ever said there isn't a chance for false positives - there is, however, things I have done and that CCP most likely does, to weed out the 'maybe-not-really-a-bot' from the 'omfg-most-definitely-a-bot' reports. No system is 100% accurate in this regard, and with human judgment comes human errors... but with the measures I've put in place... I can sleep at night knowing the chances of a false positive are slim. :)
Humans are the best pattern recognition machines ever built. No computer can beat us at it. So, until one does - it will always take human judgment based on the repetitive patterns of behavior exhibited by these bots to find them, report them, petition them and, with any luck, gank them back to the stone age before CCP lays the hammer down on them :)
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