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WE ARE FEED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!!

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riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.12.05 23:51:00 - [1] Good evening, NEW EDEN. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of every day routine- the security of the familiar, the tranquility of PVE repetition. I enjoy them as much as any carebear. But in the spirit of condenation, thereby those important revelations of today usually associated with someone's botting or the end of some awful bloody RMT struggle, a celebration of a nice holiday, I thought we could mark this December the 5th, a day that is sadly no longer remembered, by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat. There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into the batphones, and CTAÆs against me and forum moderators will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this GAME, isn't there? RMT and injustice BOTTING, tolerance and COMPLACENCE. And where once you had the freedom to make a profit, to play and enjoy as you saw fit, you now have ENDLESS HORDES OF BOTS and THEY ALLIANCE LEADERS AND REGULAR PLAYERS coercing EVEN INTO conformity and soliciting ITS submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? BANNINGS, RMT, AND CEOS. There were a myriad of RMTS which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your GAME. Loath got the best of you, and in your loath you turned to the now biggest patronisers of this treachery: THE CSM AND CCP. They promised you order, They promised you NO LAG, and all they demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent of the BOTTING and RMT operations. Last night we sought to end that silence. Last night we disclosed the the confession of a seasoned RMT player, to remind this GAME of what it has forgotten AND WHAT HAZ it complaced into. More than four years ago a great citizen wished to embed the fifth of December forever in our memory. His hope was to remind NEW EDEN that fairness, justice, and freedom of BOTTING are more than words, they are perspectives. So if you've seen nothing, if the SCANDAL of this RMTs remain unknown to you then I would suggest you allow the fifth of December to pass unmarked. But if you see what I see, if you feel as I feel, and if you would seek as I seek, then I ask you to stand beside me one THIS NEXT WEEK, outside THIS PORTAL INTO to all major MMORPG outlets, and together we shall give them a month of December that shall never, ever be forgot. German Giggles riverini
Cyrus Doul Infinite Covenant	Posted - 2010.12.05 23:57:00 - [2] ibtl quote of my comment from evenews on the 2nd article that shall not be linked: "And don't forget, Chribba, EOH and Somer are all actively making isk off of this. Somer says that they have handed out 9.2 trillion isk since they started. Theres no way for a normal player such as me to see who is a bot or legit. But you know a lot of that money are payouts that are going to be used for RMT and Somer keeps something like 15 to 20 percent house Rake. so they have 1.38 trillion isk laying around that is prolly a good half made from laundering payouts."
Apathy 420 Minmatar I'M ON A BOAT	Posted - 2010.12.05 23:57:00 - [3] what You keep what you kill
Tom Fulleride	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:01:00 - [4] "fed"
Tiliam	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:02:00 - [5] Edited by: Tiliam on 06/12/2010 00:02:21 Right so unfortunately I was unable to decipher what you've written OP - I tried google translate but it just blew up when I tried. Something about RMT and bots? Anyway it didn't make much sense. Good luck getting a good discussion on it during the 5th December, as it's the 6th December in all GMT timezones... also ibtl.
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:04:00 - [6] Edited by: riverini on 06/12/2010 00:05:53 Edited by: riverini on 06/12/2010 00:04:36 TL;DR: CCP IS BEING COMPLACENT ABOUT TE BOTTING BCZ THEY'LL LOSE A HUGE SHARE OF THE GTC MARKET IF THEY WERE TO BAN THEM, THIS HOWEVER IS KILLING THE GAME for honest ppl who play the game as they should. as proven before we can't expect CCP to move a finger until some duder from a major news outlet shows some of this, else they don't care about the honest gamers (ref. see lag +18 months) R
Kara Sharalien Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:06:00 - [7] In this wall fo text showdown, WHO WILL WIN? riverini, of majesta empire, got the jump on our challenger, Cyrus Doul, and has surpassed all expecations in the area of atrocious spelling. HOWEVER, Cyrus has demonstrated considerable technique, and none could contest that his text is even more densely compacted and unreadable then his opponent, who made the critical fumble of including one paragraph break per three paragraphs! This is sure to be an interesting matchup, back to you in the studio john! Originally by: Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
Aunty Nora	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:10:00 - [8] Theres not much to be worried about, Botters are only a problem if they surprise and take you from behind.
Cyrus Doul Infinite Covenant	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:12:00 - [9] Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 06/12/2010 00:15:13 Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 06/12/2010 00:13:13 Originally by: Kara Sharalien Edited by: Kara Sharalien on 06/12/2010 00:06:18 In this wall of text showdown, WHO WILL WIN? Riverini, of Majesta Empire, got the jump on our challenger, Cyrus Doul, and has surpassed all expecations in the area of atrocious spelling. HOWEVER, Cyrus has demonstrated considerable technique, and none could contest that his text is even more densely compacted and unreadable then his opponent, who made the critical fumble of including one paragraph break per three paragraphs! This is sure to be an interesting matchup, back to you in the studio John! Yeah I'm just going to make the point that individual sentences tend to not count as paragraphs all too often. and if you were to quote my original statement you will see that there are all of 2 spelling errors, (FYI Im should have a ' and prolly is shortened probably.) Same as your count of expectations as expecations and your false conjunction of match and up as matchup. Technically I guess I should give you half credit as the word is match-up. You just forgot the hyphen. Nice try though Grammar ****. [EDIT] <-- The stars are the leader of the ** party during WWII. Figure it out for yourself.[/EDIT] [EDIT2]Wow. CCP really sticks to the censorship of language to appease Germany's idea that they were all on vacation and to not talk about it.[/EDIT2]
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Cyrus Doul Nice try though Grammar ****. <-- The stars are the leader of the ** party during WWII. Figure it out for yourself. My grandad never told me about the Four Stars Party?

Rian O'Shea	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:18:00 - [11] Edited by: Rian O''Shea on 06/12/2010 00:20:18 --- The whole problem with the universe is that fools and fanatics are always certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubt.
Kara Sharalien Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Kara Sharalien on 06/12/2010 00:22:18 Edited by: Kara Sharalien on 06/12/2010 00:21:59 Originally by: Cyrus Doul Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 06/12/2010 00:15:13 Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 06/12/2010 00:13:13 Originally by: Kara Sharalien Edited by: Kara Sharalien on 06/12/2010 00:06:18 In this wall of text showdown, WHO WILL WIN? Riverini, of Majesta Empire, got the jump on our challenger, Cyrus Doul, and has surpassed all expecations in the area of atrocious spelling. HOWEVER, Cyrus has demonstrated considerable technique, and none could contest that his text is even more densely compacted and unreadable then his opponent, who made the critical fumble of including one paragraph break per three paragraphs! This is sure to be an interesting matchup, back to you in the studio John! Yeah I'm just going to make the point that individual sentences tend to not count as paragraphs all too often. and if you were to quote my original statement you will see that there are all of 2 spelling errors, (FYI Im should have a ' and prolly is shortened probably.) Same as your count of expectations as expecations and your false conjunction of match and up as matchup. Technically I guess I should give you half credit as the word is match-up. You just forgot the hyphen. Nice try though Grammar ****. [EDIT] <-- The stars are the leader of the party during WWII. Figure it out for yourself.[/EDIT] [EDIT2]Wow. CCP really sticks to the censorship of language to appease Germany's idea that they were all on vacation and to not talk about it.[/EDIT2] John, we have another development back at the stadium! It seems that not content with his original submission, Cyrus has created another masterpiece for the judges to assess. Included in this submission are crimes against full stops, flagrant misunderstanding of forum tags and a lonely apostrophe, all sure to win him a lot of points in the final judging. Riverini will have to lift his game if he is to retain any hope of winning this one! Back to you, John. Originally by:** Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
Joe Skellington Minmatar JOKAS Industries Independent Faction	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:33:00 - [13] I'm feed up too, ate a lot of Thai food a few hours ago, then I had a big bowl of vegetable stew.
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:35:00 - [14] OP, you may be feed up, but I assure you my finances are in perfect order and all fees have been paid.
Herping yourDerp	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:35:00 - [15] i see the trolls are trolling, you obviously didnt pay the troll toll anyways RTM is a major problem, and they should be doing somthing about it, weather thy are or not is the question
mechtech SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:35:00 - [16] Just ate curry, I'm feed up!
Pyro Ninja Gallente Loving Pirates Vera Cruz Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:40:00 - [17] Originally by: omgfreemoniez Originally by: Cyrus Doul Nice try though Grammar ****. <-- The stars are the leader of the ** party during WWII. Figure it out for yourself. My grandad never told me about the Four Stars Party? it was a secret party if he told you about it he would have to kill you
ps3ud0nym	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:42:00 - [18] Edited by: ps3ud0nym on 06/12/2010 00:45:18 While I agree that Botting and RMT in EVE is a major issue, I am more interested in other ramifications arising form this. 1) Tax evasion - Seems like this is a good way to make money and keep it off the books. 2) Real world money laundering The question I have is, if CCP doesn't do something about this and very soon, how long will it be before the major media start picking this up and accusing CCP of facilitating criminal activity?
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:43:00 - [19] Originally by: riverini WE ARE FEED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT RMT AND BOTTING!!!! If noise = mocking the OP, mission acomplished. -- I can not decide on a sig yet. Under Construction.
Stegas Tyrano GREY COUNCIL	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:44:00 - [20] We need more war in eve. The only reason they're making so much is because they've found safe space to bot in. We need more Hulkageddons and more wars in 0.0.

Green Daemon 54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry Kugutsumen.	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:46:00 - [21] OP is mostly ~mad~ because he cannot figure out how to link to the thread that started all this on **********.com ..... dammit. "my alliance" . com
Rian O'Shea	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:47:00 - [22] Originally by: Stegas Tyrano We need more war in eve. The only reason they're making so much is because they've found safe space to bot in. We need more Hulkageddons and more wars in 0.0. The problem is that "we" fight for the fun of it, "they" fight for their RL income so their tenacity and focus is very different from us players who "just want to have some fun". Apart from that; Am I seriously the only one who recognised the OP's post? surely not. --- The whole problem with the universe is that fools and fanatics are always certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubt.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:52:00 - [23] Originally by: Rian O'Shea Originally by: Stegas Tyrano We need more war in eve. The only reason they're making so much is because they've found safe space to bot in. We need more Hulkageddons and more wars in 0.0. The problem is that "we" fight for the fun of it, "they" fight for their RL income so their tenacity and focus is very different from us players who "just want to have some fun". Apart from that; Am I seriously the only one who recognised the OP's post? surely not. I'm with you.. and I' really don't get the deal with people bothering a rats ass about grammar. I thik (yeah you understnd tha tws think) we all got the point with the "feed" think.. dotting i's and crossing ts is for anal rententives or peoplpe who can type without transposing a letter in everyother word
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.12.06 01:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso Originally by: Rian O'Shea Originally by: Stegas Tyrano We need more war in eve. The only reason they're making so much is because they've found safe space to bot in. We need more Hulkageddons and more wars in 0.0. The problem is that "we" fight for the fun of it, "they" fight for their RL income so their tenacity and focus is very different from us players who "just want to have some fun". Apart from that; Am I seriously the only one who recognised the OP's post? surely not. I'm with you.. and I' really don't get the deal with people bothering a rats ass about grammar. I thik (yeah you understnd tha tws think) we all got the point with the "feed" think.. dotting i's and crossing ts is for anal rententives or peoplpe who can type without transposing a letter in everyother word disregard the gammar nahzeees let's focus on what's important, these botters are keeling the game, how does it feel to pvp against someone who shrug off loses by letting his computer auto-rat losses while he is at the office...
Rian O'Shea	Posted - 2010.12.06 01:17:00 - [25] Sigh --- The whole problem with the universe is that fools and fanatics are always certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubt.
FluffyDice StarFckers Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.06 01:19:00 - [26] Just thought id add to this that last time i had a browse through ccp's website i noticed they are actually looking to hire someone with the experience and knowledge to address all these issues such as botting and exploits and other security issues that have emerged. Rest assured that CCP is working on dealing with such problems.... eventually
CHEERWlNE	Posted - 2010.12.06 01:21:00 - [27] If you want people to take you seriously then please learn how to ****ing spell properly, thanks.
Soma Khan Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.06 01:21:00 - [28] Originally by: Rian O'Shea The problem is that "we" fight for the fun of it, "they" fight for their RL income so their tenacity and focus is very different from us players who "just want to have some fun". translation: we suck at 'good fights' so here's a cool and convenient reason why we're such losers __
Meridian Siri	Posted - 2010.12.06 01:22:00 - [29] Prior to reading this thread, I was checking out another about Botting and RMT. Even though there was good (and plentiful) discussion regarding an issue that the player base is concerned about, the thread got locked by a CCP moderator (Adida). OK. So you (CCP) have a good chunk of your player base that is pretty worked up over the issue of RMT and Botting and your response is to silence the conversation because "RMT is a EULA violation". What a load of CR**! The discussion itself is not the violation, idiots; it is the botting and RMT. Silencing the conversation makes CCP look either 1) uncaring, 2)complacent, 3)complicit, or 4) like idiots. You pick. Suppose you will remove this thread because it discusses moderating or some BS like that.
oldmanst4r Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.06 02:26:00 - [30] Edited by: oldmanst4r on 06/12/2010 02:26:27 Edited by: oldmanst4r on 06/12/2010 02:26:10 1. Botting will exist as long as there is profit to be made. 2. There will always be profit to be made in botting EVE. 3. Therefore, there will always be botting in EVE. So, shut up. Originally by: CCP Shadow snip Castration successful. Shadow.

Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2010.12.06 02:38:00 - [31] too much OCCASIONAL CAPSLOCK SYNDROME and bad V for vendetta copypaste to read. it helps if you don't try to edit the words to be about something else hamhandedly. i guess you're mad about botting though? _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep!
Lion Around	Posted - 2010.12.06 04:46:00 - [32] Ok, botting I get. But what the heck is RMT?
Fried'chickenisha	Posted - 2010.12.06 04:47:00 - [33] Forum bot x5000......pick one reply 1) STFU noob 2) go back to WoW 3) you mad? 4) Umad 5) cooly story bra 6) your mother random pick #6 Your mother
Exordium8 Minmatar Universal Independence Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2010.12.06 04:52:00 - [34] Originally by: Fried'chickenisha Forum bot x5000......pick one reply 1) STFU noob 2) go back to WoW 3) you mad? 4) Umad 5) cooly story bra 6) your mother random pick #6 Your mother You forgot #7, which is what I choose. (When you ragequit) can I haz your stuff? --------------------------------- Pillage, then burn. Everything is air-droppable at least once. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'time to reload.
Aeronwen Carys	Posted - 2010.12.06 05:45:00 - [35] This is why I hate weekends, less forum moderators around to kill of pointless threads like these.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.06 05:56:00 - [36] Did you know, if you have one of those macro keyboards, CCP gives you full permission to use it, so if CCP bother to question botters they can easily reply "im not botting im using the keyboard". Probably why they only target RMT and not bother with the insane amount of bots Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Tyrrant Peanut Factory	Posted - 2010.12.06 06:24:00 - [37] I said it before and I will say it again. If we want to remove all the botters all we have to do is remove the local in 0.0 and make it delayed mode. This will do a couple things. It will make scouts actually useful and people wont rely on that damn local count. It will also make every single 0.0 botter die in a fire to stealth bombers + recons. Lastly, it will boost black ops and covert bridges.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.06 06:29:00 - [38] Originally by: Tyrrant I said it before and I will say it again. If we want to remove all the botters all we have to do is remove the local in 0.0 and make it delayed mode. This will do a couple things. It will make scouts actually useful and people wont rely on that damn local count. It will also make every single 0.0 botter die in a fire to stealth bombers + recons. Lastly, it will boost black ops and covert bridges. Theres 3 kinds of botters and tbh directional scanners can easily be used to see who is in the system so macros wont really have an issue, in case you missed the link that was provided, botters are in WHs too :P Macro ratters, macro miners, macro haulers all need shooting with a silver bullet Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Tyrrant Peanut Factory	Posted - 2010.12.06 06:31:00 - [39] Originally by: Kalle Demos Originally by: Tyrrant I said it before and I will say it again. If we want to remove all the botters all we have to do is remove the local in 0.0 and make it delayed mode. This will do a couple things. It will make scouts actually useful and people wont rely on that damn local count. It will also make every single 0.0 botter die in a fire to stealth bombers + recons. Lastly, it will boost black ops and covert bridges. Theres 3 kinds of botters and tbh directional scanners can easily be used to see who is in the system so macros wont really have an issue, in case you missed the link that was provided, botters are in WHs too :P Macro ratters, macro miners, macro haulers all need shooting with a silver bullet did you not see the part about cloaky ships? stealth bombers and recons and such?
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.06 06:36:00 - [40] Originally by: Tyrrant Originally by: Kalle Demos Originally by: Tyrrant I said it before and I will say it again. If we want to remove all the botters all we have to do is remove the local in 0.0 and make it delayed mode. This will do a couple things. It will make scouts actually useful and people wont rely on that damn local count. It will also make every single 0.0 botter die in a fire to stealth bombers + recons. Lastly, it will boost black ops and covert bridges. I did, I get what you are saying but I dont think it will do alot of harm to botters, dont get me wrong I would prefer local to be gone in 0.0 and think it should happen anyway but there needs to be something done about ALL types of botting not just 0.0 ratters. Theres 3 kinds of botters and tbh directional scanners can easily be used to see who is in the system so macros wont really have an issue, in case you missed the link that was provided, botters are in WHs too :P Macro ratters, macro miners, macro haulers all need shooting with a silver bullet did you not see the part about cloaky ships? stealth bombers and recons and such? Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw

Meridian Siri	Posted - 2010.12.06 06:41:00 - [41] I like the concept of a removed/delayed local. I do, however, wonder how effective it would be in dealing with macros that are configured to read data directly from the client without the use of OCR. One of the main probs I have with macro/RMT is that everyone sees it going on....and CCP doesn't seem to do anything about it. If the impact on the game was minor, it would be one thing; but when bots are being used to the extent where they can prop up empires...totally different deal. This stuff is,literally, casting a shadow on the legitimacy of null-sec power blocks (whether deserved or not). I would think that alliance leadership types would be concerned about this and police their own.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.12.06 06:48:00 - [42] On the spelling thing, yeah, I was being a bit facetious but if someone is making a point, try to understand what they're trying to say, even if they don't say it exactly right. The point isn't to prove people wrong but to engage in a dialogue that might better understand an issue...not for anyones advantage, but just for the intellectual pleasure of seeing as many nuances, motivations, and posible mechanics as possible. As for the spelling and grammar it has less to do with the subject at hand. People should take people seriously who bring new perspectives to issues. I'm not sure that the OP did that, but the "feed" thing had little influence on whether or not that you, as a well adjusted, noble and magnaminaous human being, should be confused by. I do agree though, that in general, spelling and grammar are a curtesey that you owe a reader...depending upon the medium. If you consider internet conversation as "Oral"... you'd type on here with the same care and pace that you would while talking at a back yard bar-b-que. Going back and correcting spelling would lose that conversational feel. If you considered board posts more like notes written back and forsth to people, not quick verbal responses.. you would take more care. As to the "local"issue: I think the best method would be misiformation, including players appearing in local and maybe even ships on scan, that were not there. The fakes should be chosed from real active players.. move through a few systems, then go poof.. as they would if they were targetted.. Sifting signal to noise is something that humans do well.. it would give and advantage to people who might know who and who not would be likely to be in a system, and it would give a reason for people to know as many players names and corps as possible.. see their corp messages and otherwise make the other players in the game a part of your experience. Eliminating local would tend to make you notice less players and have less reason to get to know them...as friends , or enemies.
Tyrrant Peanut Factory	Posted - 2010.12.06 06:49:00 - [43] Originally by: Meridian Siri I like the concept of a removed/delayed local. I do, however, wonder how effective it would be in dealing with macros that are configured to read data directly from the client without the use of OCR. One of the main probs I have with macro/RMT is that everyone sees it going on....and CCP doesn't seem to do anything about it. If the impact on the game was minor, it would be one thing; but when bots are being used to the extent where they can prop up empires...totally different deal. This stuff is,literally, casting a shadow on the legitimacy of null-sec power blocks (whether deserved or not). I would think that alliance leadership types would be concerned about this and police their own. If bots can read into the delayed local mode and see people when they actually jump in, that is some ****ty news for CCP's programmers. Surely there is a server side fix for this. Perhaps even letting players close the local channel. If it is setup like other channels on eve that would remove them from it. If there are people reading the client like that they should all be perma-banned.
Ringo Jeicha	Posted - 2010.12.06 07:19:00 - [44] How was babby formed? --- Braaaiiinnnsssssssssss
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2010.12.06 08:19:00 - [45] Change gameplay that you can't (easily) automate it. Make gameplay that it is not stupid and senseless grinding but interesting stuff that requires some wits. Most of the problems solved. Besides ... do you have any solid numbers except just some random stuff from some forums? Sure, it is easy to say that whole stain is infested by bots or that the newly NC-conquered constellations in the drone regions are rented to bots. It is easy to say that most of the logistics in the NC are done by bots. It is easy to say that the russians are hugely involved in RMT. It is easy to say that whole EVE is infested with bots. One would guess that there are many sorts of bots: Logistic bots, mining bots, ratting bots, market bots. But what PROOF is there? Without proof and facts you hardly can act. A devblog with details and statistics would be good though. Especially since this is getting pretty alarming. Only time until the larger gamer magazines will report about this - and then it would be good if CCP would have some statements _before_ this happens.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.12.06 09:11:00 - [46] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 06/12/2010 09:12:47 Originally by: Gnulpie One would guess that there are many sorts of bots: Logistic bots, mining bots, ratting bots, market bots. The relevant thread on the forum that must not be named links to a fairly well-known SDK that exposes many functions of the EVE client via a very nice API. This allows you to build your own bots (for trading, ratting, courier work, mission running, mining, ...) very easily if you have some basic programming knowledge. Why are these bots not for sale? Mainly because (a) why would you want to share your unfair advantage (and give CCP insight in the patterns your bot follows) and (b) they still rely on said SDK(s) which require a subscription (in RL cash ofc) making these bots relatively expensive when compared to your standard OCR bot.
Rexthor Hammerfists Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.12.06 09:13:00 - [47] Botting is done everywhere, in some regions more than others but still. As long as coalitions can hold several regions botting will remain. -
Dirk Mortice	Posted - 2010.12.06 09:21:00 - [48] Originally by: Meridian Siri I would think that alliance leadership types would be concerned about this and police their own. BAHAHAHAHAHA If by "police their own" you mean "kick out friendly ratters to ensure they have more than enough botting space for themselves" then yeah sure.
Neo Gabriel Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.12.06 09:23:00 - [49] CCP I AM **ING SICK OF YOUR BULL**. ALL THESE PEOPLE CHEATING IN THIS GAME AND YOU KNOW ALL ALONG AND YET YOU DO NOTHING. I WANT ACCOUNTS BANNED AND EVERYTHING EXPOSED. I DON'T CARE HOW MANY DEVS USE BOTTING AND RMT TO MAKE OFF-THE-BOOKS INCOME, FIRE THEM IF YOU HAVE TO, IF YOU DONT FIX THIS I'LL CANCEL ALL MY THREE ACCOUNTS. EXCELLENCE OR MEDIOCRITY? IN EVE, THE CHOICE IS YOURS.
Vurshachka	Posted - 2010.12.06 09:44:00 - [50] There are some EveNews 24 sites that post bottling guides that i think is to much !!!

Pesadel0 the muppets Talos Coalition	Posted - 2010.12.06 10:16:00 - [51] Edited by: Pesadel0 on 06/12/2010 10:16:45 Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists Botting is done everywhere, in some regions more than others but still. As long as coalitions can hold several regions botting will remain. Off course it will remain if CCP doenst take action..ANd CCP closing all the threads about the issue lol .
Reeno Coleman	Posted - 2010.12.06 10:41:00 - [52] /signed, but.... ...CAPSLOCK in the title.. really?
Torus Schwert German Kings Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.12.06 10:43:00 - [53] Killing enemy supercap, knowing that his bot-army will farm him a new one within 1-2 days ... no fun anymore ...
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.12.06 10:56:00 - [54] i 100% agree with the removal of any macro that create isk like macrofarmer or macro missioner but on the removal of macrominer im a bit worried because if CCP remove them, all the T1 ship will skyrocket in price since ppl would have to actually mine, the maintenance cost of POS will skyrocket as well since there wouldnt be anymore cheap ice product (not to mention fuel for capital). in the end im more happy knowing there are people that make more money than me because they macro rather than have to mine ice and minerals myself
Reeno Coleman	Posted - 2010.12.06 10:58:00 - [55] Originally by: Lion Around Ok, botting I get. But what the heck is RMT? RMT = Real Money Trading Buying or Selling EvE Assets for real dollars, which is strictly forbidden, but apparently very common.
Eyeama Spy	Posted - 2010.12.06 11:09:00 - [56] ccp are tackling the bot problem in 2 ways, the first is the xmas present on 14th dec...its an afk cloaked ship in every system in eve online 24/7, the second is incursions, which will target all high sec ice belt systems with reduced resists, sansha bombers to kill the bots in belts and gate camps on the exits. Merry xmas and a happy new year
Arec Bardwin	Posted - 2010.12.06 11:31:00 - [57] Read the RMT stories on http://www.evenews24.com/ (this is a CCP-endorsed website)
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.12.06 11:34:00 - [58] When CCP start banning the accounts that buy ISK, we'll see a decline in RMT. But RMT is only half the story when it comes to botting. CCP seem to pretty much ignore botting as long as the ISK isn't sold. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Charles Newton Amarr Duck Hide and Pants Solicitors	Posted - 2010.12.06 11:40:00 - [59] OP, breathe deeply dude.
Anila Taipei	Posted - 2010.12.06 11:55:00 - [60] Stop botting /botter, I suppport this discussion.

Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.06 12:26:00 - [61] Originally by: Malcanis When CCP start banning the accounts that buy ISK, we'll see a decline in RMT. But RMT is only half the story when it comes to botting. CCP seem to pretty much ignore botting as long as the ISK isn't sold. I agree and it doesn't help that so many players tend to think that botting = RMT as is evident by oh so many of the rage at bots/rmt threads. There isn't a simple, easy or perfect solution to RMT or botting but that doesn't stop the rage threads. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
gfldex	Posted - 2010.12.06 12:39:00 - [62] /me rattles his cage
Servus Y	Posted - 2010.12.06 13:15:00 - [63] I think things are fine the way they are. Eve economy is booming and CCP is making lots of money. If non-human players have become as integral part of the game as people are saying then removing them could have catastrophic consequences to CCP. Моё судно на воздушной подушке полно угрей
Pesadel0 the muppets Talos Coalition	Posted - 2010.12.06 13:26:00 - [64] Originally by: Servus Y I think things are fine the way they are. Eve economy is booming and CCP is making lots of money. If non-human players have become as integral part of the game as people are saying then removing them could have catastrophic consequences to CCP. Моё судно на воздушной подушке полно угрей Lol why is that ? Catastrofic as in killing some macro ratter alliances SC would actually make a diference in wars?
Derelicht	Posted - 2010.12.06 13:30:00 - [65] Originally by: Servus Y If non-human players have become as integral part of the game as people are saying then removing them could have catastrophic consequences to CCP.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.06 13:52:00 - [66] Edited by: Kalle Demos on 06/12/2010 13:53:23 According to that website the bot has been bought 6139 times lol, since CCP are cool with botters and there is no reason for more than 1 purchase im going to have to assume more than 10% of the population are botters, the scary thing is thats just one website AND only applies to macro ratting. 1 in 10 eve players are gay and by the looks of it 3 in 10 eve players are botters. Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
TimMc Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2010.12.06 14:01:00 - [67] Fist off, I lol'ed at the V for Vendetta reference. Second, I too am sick of bots in eve. I live on the fringe of russian space. I roam out at night, and it seems every system is full of bot ravens with exqurors hauling. They run 23/7 and hide in cloaked safes the second anyone enters local. There is even a ratting raven in a system next to ours, so we watch first hand its activity and have reported it multiple times with no reaction by CCP. I understand botting is nearly impossible to prove. Bots can be very complex and from CCPs perspetive they see a player who has no life. They might be taking an unemployed or disable persons only joy. Only way they can ever ban them is if they get into RMT. But alot of these bots are not RMTers. They are botting for the profit of their main character only. I see no way of stopping them except giving temp bans to every who plays 23/7 and seeing how quickly petitions are filed.
kurg	Posted - 2010.12.06 14:07:00 - [68] Learn to spell first.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.06 14:20:00 - [69] From the 'best' bot guide Quote: Overview needs to be unpinned, it is very important that your overview like your local tab are unpinned, otherwise the stars or celestial objects will interfere with X-XXX which will result in unwanted outcomes There is alot of these 'strict' rules and alot of other stuff too, killing off bots isnt really as hard as one would think, if CCP could go research the bot then perhaps they would be able to see what the bot heavily depends on Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
TimMc Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2010.12.06 14:30:00 - [70] Originally by: Kalle Demos From the 'best' bot guide Quote: Overview needs to be unpinned, it is very important that your overview like your local tab are unpinned, otherwise the stars or celestial objects will interfere with X-XXX which will result in unwanted outcomes There is alot of these 'strict' rules and alot of other stuff too, killing off bots isnt really as hard as one would think, if CCP could go research the bot then perhaps they would be able to see what the bot heavily depends on Are you saying they should redesign the GUI to mess up bots or they should feed back GUI customisations in order to ban bots?

Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.06 14:41:00 - [71] Originally by: TimMc Originally by: Kalle Demos From the 'best' bot guide Quote: Overview needs to be unpinned, it is very important that your overview like your local tab are unpinned, otherwise the stars or celestial objects will interfere with X-XXX which will result in unwanted outcomes There is alot of these 'strict' rules and alot of other stuff too, killing off bots isnt really as hard as one would think, if CCP could go research the bot then perhaps they would be able to see what the bot heavily depends on Are you saying they should redesign the GUI to mess up bots or they should feed back GUI customisations in order to ban bots? Prevent unpinning of boxes, which imo is a stupid thing to allow anyway and make boxes more tranparent Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2010.12.06 14:43:00 - [72] Last time they banned all the bots GTC prices dropped and my LP store actually became worth it for a while. So yes, please do Unholy Rage II ASAP.
Quazal Atreides Gallente Asteo Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.06 14:57:00 - [73] Originally by: Cyrus Doul , By doing so the money can leave their account. get washed by blinks account and sent back as an actual item instead of isk again. Adding one more layer of masking to it. you see people like Quazal Atreides on there 15+ hours a day. at this point they have bots for the bots. He at this point has put at least 55 billion isk into the game as shown by his achievements. A" Firstly who the ** are you calling me a bot, I am a player who has enough isk to gamble just because you have to beg borrow steal to get enough isk to play per month that aint my problem and for the record this is taken directly from Somer site ISK Deposited118,500,000,000 ISK Blinks Played8,433 Promo Blinks Played49 Blinks Won1,138 Megablinks Won96 Win Ratio13.49% Value of Blinks Won160,076,000,000 ISK So a bot am i :) the fact if you even bothered to get off your lazy arse and investigate is that i sit in the blink channel all day and chat away you can pop in most times and say hi. Hey half time im in game half time im the fact that i can do research on my final dissatation paper and click a button and win things is non of your Fing business. So next time you decide to call someone a bot please get off you lazy arse and do some investigation. If you even bothered to do checking on me on the forum you would see that i run succesfull business and ddonate to the community (not much granted) but more than some whiny ass 2isk pimp like you. Thanks and good night! NB This script wasn't written by a Bot but a **ed of player who like most people in eve takes great pleasure in killing/and hutting out ratting/mining macros
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2010.12.06 15:00:00 - [74] We need delayed Local in 0.0 (ideally everywhere) and updated d-scan (and other updates to client to hinder sophisticated macros). Let the players do our own policing. ...
holding pattern58	Posted - 2010.12.06 15:03:00 - [75] Actually a simpler solution would be to have people with negative standing afk-cloak in each of the botter systems. If the bots then start mining/plexing again you are free to shoot them. From what I've heard most of the bots will stay docked/safespot whenever a non-blue enters system, thus preventing them from making isk. Too bad we don't have an alliance who can disrupt bot activities on such a massive scale with afk cloakers.
Xylengra	Posted - 2010.12.06 15:08:00 - [76] I think all but those directly benefiting from the sale of macro proceeds will agree that RMT-ing is bad. It's easy to focus in on the owners of macro ratting operations as benefactors, but in a real way CCP benefits too. It is also easy to discount, though we shouldn't, a certain amount of bot envy, even from those who claim the moral high ground in the argument. However (and this is something I rarely see mentioned), in this space simulation game, which already has a well-evolved drone-using and drone-accepting society, isn't it entirely reasonable that we would have developed robots to do many of these routine tasks, such as mining, for us? It reminds me of every Star Trek episode ever made - the captain has to give an order for the shields to go up. Why wouldn't that be an automated thing?? Forgive that digression, I couldn't help but see the analogy. There are some bottom line truths out there about this issue. Like weeds, you might cut them back, but to get rid of them completely you will poison the lawn. Our worry, and CCP's worry, SHOULD be focused on the RMT-ers. The average joe out there running a high-sec macro to finance his PLEX purchases for game time is, seriously, the least of the problem.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.06 15:09:00 - [77] Originally by: holding pattern58 Actually a simpler solution would be to have people with negative standing afk-cloak in each of the botter systems. If the bots then start mining/plexing again you are free to shoot them. From what I've heard most of the bots will stay docked/safespot whenever a non-blue enters system, thus preventing them from making isk. Too bad we don't have an alliance who can disrupt bot activities on such a massive scale with afk cloakers. Even if there was a neut afk cloaker in every system in the game it wouldnt remotely affect macro miners, which are equally annoying. Hmm I am starting to obsess about this a little too much, this I will take a 24h forum break :) Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
how many	Posted - 2010.12.06 15:22:00 - [78] stop double posting majestaphail.
Alt Obviously	Posted - 2010.12.06 15:32:00 - [79] It's unfortunate that the OP chose this style of post (CAPs, etc.), diverting attention to a very real and serious issue. I don't believe that CCP isn't doing anything against it, but it's easy to see how something in which easy money can be made corrupts people (alliance leaders and individual CCP employees alike). As such, it deserves attention, especially because it does affect the quality of the overall game and enjoyment of players. On a side note, the article on EVE News 24 is awful: rather than critically analyzing the problem, it is simply a manual on how to RMT yourself. I wonder how many people have been "inspired" to try it out after reading it.
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.12.06 16:07:00 - [80] It is funny how many people whined and threadnaughted about Remaps for PLEX destroying the game, but only a fraction of those people are actively posting in this thread. ---

Myz Toyou APOCALYPSE LEGION	Posted - 2010.12.06 16:20:00 - [81] Edited by: Myz Toyou on 06/12/2010 16:24:32 Originally by: Suitonia It is funny how many people whined and threadnaughted about Remaps for PLEX destroying the game, but only a fraction of those people are actively posting in this thread. they either: - busy with setting up their own bot clusters - smart enough to know that CCP has no real interest in stop the botting - know that CCP most likely will close all these threads and try to keep it under the carpet - still believe this all is a lie and think that bots dont exist - dont care - already unsubbed and moved over to WoT Personally I go with choice 2 + 3
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.06 16:31:00 - [82] Originally by: Myz Toyou Edited by: Myz Toyou on 06/12/2010 16:24:32 Originally by: Suitonia It is funny how many people whined and threadnaughted about Remaps for PLEX destroying the game, but only a fraction of those people are actively posting in this thread. they either: - busy with setting up their own bot clusters - smart enough to know that CCP has no real interest in stop the botting - know that CCP most likely will close all these threads and try to keep it under the carpet - still believe this all is a lie and think that bots dont exist - dont care - already unsubbed and moved over to WoT Personally I go with choice 2 + 3 I'm 2 + 3 and a bit of 4 because of my 2 + 3 leanings. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2010.12.06 16:40:00 - [83] Edited by: Tres Farmer on 06/12/2010 16:44:40 nvm. support Public Idea Tracker \| 24hr PLEX
Pesadel0 the muppets Talos Coalition	Posted - 2010.12.06 16:48:00 - [84] Originally by: Suitonia It is funny how many people whined and threadnaughted about Remaps for PLEX destroying the game, but only a fraction of those people are actively posting in this thread. Indeed it is weird ,damm i really tougth it would create a new threadnougth and here we are now 3 pages and counting ...Really sad
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.12.06 16:55:00 - [85] Originally by: Kalle Demos From the 'best' bot guide Quote: Overview needs to be unpinned, it is very important that your overview like your local tab are unpinned, otherwise the stars or celestial objects will interfere with X-XXX which will result in unwanted outcomes There is alot of these 'strict' rules and alot of other stuff too, killing off bots isnt really as hard as one would think, if CCP could go research the bot then perhaps they would be able to see what the bot heavily depends on What's "unpinning" ? Certainly you need to be able to move local around and make it as skinny as possible. I really hope they ad the opttion to remove the charater portraits from the list of players so more would stack into a a smaller legnth of space... (yeah I like local(for social interaction encouragement...i'd prefer to even have the corp names listed under player name in local)... but thats another argument I partially made above. But on your Main Point... Yeah.. Know Your Enemy... i hope peole at ccp have purchased the programs mentioned, are using them and trying to figure out a method to engineer game mechanics to make such things difficult ... ... thats not lowest common denominator thinking if the changes are made in a way that also enhance real player to player interaction... ... making botters an easy target for players also would enhance game play not only through reducing botters in game but giving players semi-npc-like targets with an AI designed by random "external programmers"
00 RatingBot987657	Posted - 2010.12.06 16:57:00 - [86] So what alliance leaders sell supercarriers and other Items procured with or bought with the use of BOTS on RMT sites. As well as their ISK in game? So what people like KIA Eddz are active and loud proponetns of RMT and CCP flies them to Iceland to host Alliance tournaments.
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.12.06 18:14:00 - [87] Originally by: 00 RatingBot987657 So what alliance leaders sell supercarriers and other Items procured with or bought with the use of BOTS on RMT sites. As well as their ISK in game? So what people like KIA Eddz are active and loud proponetns of RMT and CCP flies them to Iceland to host Alliance tournaments. I think Accusations of whether or not people or alliance leaders bot, and which ones are botting or not is just going to derail this thread into a flamefest fast. Lets focus on the issue that there are a lot of botters out there, and CCP needs to do something. ---
Cyrus Doul Infinite Covenant	Posted - 2010.12.06 18:29:00 - [88] Originally by: Quazal Atreides Originally by: Cyrus Doul , By doing so the money can leave their account. get washed by blinks account and sent back as an actual item instead of isk again. Adding one more layer of masking to it. you see people like Quazal Atreides on there 15+ hours a day. at this point they have bots for the bots. He at this point has put at least 55 billion isk into the game as shown by his achievements. A" Firstly who the ** are you calling me a bot, I am a player who has enough isk to gamble just because you have to beg borrow steal to get enough isk to play per month that aint my problem and for the record this is taken directly from Somer site ISK Deposited118,500,000,000 ISK Blinks Played8,433 Promo Blinks Played49 Blinks Won1,138 Megablinks Won96 Win Ratio13.49% Value of Blinks Won160,076,000,000 ISK So a bot am i :) the fact if you even bothered to get off your lazy arse and investigate is that i sit in the blink channel all day and chat away you can pop in most times and say hi. Hey half time im in game half time im the fact that i can do research on my final dissatation paper and click a button and win things is non of your Fing business. So next time you decide to call someone a bot please get off you lazy arse and do some investigation. If you even bothered to do checking on me on the forum you would see that i run succesfull business and ddonate to the community (not much granted) but more than some whiny ass 2isk pimp like you. Thanks and good night! NB This script wasn't written by a Bot but a ed of player who like most people in eve takes great pleasure in killing/and hutting out ratting/mining macros And his email: get your facts right From: Quazal Atreides Sent: 2010.12.06 15:14 To: Cyrus Doul, Firstly Who the are you calling me a Bot. If you have a link to an imaginary site i want it, becaue i will personally respond to their ignorance. I suggest you read my post on the forum and appologise Dont bother trying to come out with some , simply your a lazy tard who doesn't know what its like to have 1mill isk let alone the amount that i can gamble and lose at my own expense. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1426740&page=3 Post 78 is my response. Now next time you want try to be deflamatory do your ing investigation on the person first. Quaz. Also if you really want feel free to get CCP to investigate me, because it would take all of 5 mins to see that i rarely go 5 mintues without talking in one of the many public trade channel that people know (and have known me for 2/3 years) or in the blink public channel.. So report me if im a bot... if not ** you ...... and an apology would be appreciated. End mail correspondance I'm happy for you that you can respond to posts. But your numbers are just helping me out here really. And the fact that you rage that hard core by me using you as a username example. I could have said the TYKONDEROGA guy that has now racked up 352 billion isk in winnings. I guess if you can manage to play a game 12 to 15 hours a day while doing your dissertation in how to write a better bot program more power to you. The fact stands is that I randomly picked one of the people that you can see betting on EVERYTHING with the same style all day on something that is a known way to launder money and you responded ridiculously over the top. I have noticed that you have toned it down since the article came out and I made my statement that made you rage oh so much. Good way to show what ones the bots might be. Or to lay low... Btw your not getting an apology. So you talk in the in game channel occasionally, doesn't mean you aren't botting blink. And petitioning CCP won't help as they can only get you on EVE not some third party page. Basically this whole thing is calling out how Botters or non botter RMT people can launder. I guess I'm sorry you fit the description of a bot user perfectly.
Quazal Atreides Gallente Asteo Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.06 19:02:00 - [89] ok show me evidence.get a GM to audit my accounts. you know nothing about account the fact is you decided to slander a real person you know find yourself trying to justify this by the "you fit the potrait" let me let you into a little secret. In a game of chance (using somer site) 1 in 8 chance or 12.5% then should the numbers be completly random then the same number will come up 12.5% of the time So using this logic betting on the same number 1000 times will give you 125 wins now assuming your wins are not the small ships then you win isk.. Using this logic is how i play when i goto casino (which i do 1 a month) i play roulette and guess what.... i use the same numbers on teh roulette table, now unless im mistaken i dont need to plug myself into the power mains, i am definatly human But also if i was RMTing why would i then not take all my winning as isk.. My winnings are split between the following numbers Value of Blinks Won161,900,000,000 ISK Winnings Transformed to Blink Credit31,235,106,000 ISK Winnings Transformed to ISK24,949,820,000 ISK now if i was RMTing then i would transfer every single win to isk otherwise would be pointless... I have nothing to hide so unless you want to get a GM involved take your little 2 isk ass back to your carebear home and finally.. does a BOT really offer services to the other players eve, have you even bothered to check in teh trade channels.. speak to other players who have known me for 3 years before you start to slander my name. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1173454&page=1 1st service ive offered )still the only free copr creation service in eve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1297027&page=1 another service i offered with comments from customers. http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1360011/page/2#32 a public share offering Now do any of them look like the posts of a RMT etc. feel free to continue flaming or using my name but i am asking you first remove my name from the slander or i will get a GM to remove it (and yes i will ask them to audit my account and see if a single isk has been bought or sold in the 4yrs i have played the game)
Tuscanspeed Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.12.06 19:10:00 - [90] Unpopular opinion time: Please extend the holy rage to the following categories as well: 1. GTC's 2. running multiple accounts at the same time (whether from the same PC or several 3. character bazaar If the goal is getting rid of botting. Getting rid of the above 3 go a long way to accomplishing that goal. But fair play isn't in the playbook in EvE. It's all about the isk. Tournies are fun to watch knowing about how it's all bought behind the scenes in one way or another. ---------------------------------------------- Never have been. Never will be. An Alt.

Almethea Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.06 19:38:00 - [91] no ?! Eve has bot? /me facepalm and emoragequit Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist One Isk Baby
Cyrus Doul Infinite Covenant	Posted - 2010.12.06 19:50:00 - [92] Originally by: Quazal Atreides ok show me evidence.get a GM to audit my accounts. you know nothing about account the fact is you decided to slander a real person you know find yourself trying to justify this by the "you fit the potrait" let me let you into a little secret. In a game of chance (using somer site) 1 in 8 chance or 12.5% then should the numbers be completly random then the same number will come up 12.5% of the time So using this logic betting on the same number 1000 times will give you 125 wins now assuming your wins are not the small ships then you win isk.. Using this logic is how i play when i goto casino (which i do 1 a month) i play roulette and guess what.... i use the same numbers on teh roulette table, now unless im mistaken i dont need to plug myself into the power mains, i am definatly human But also if i was RMTing why would i then not take all my winning as isk.. My winnings are split between the following numbers Value of Blinks Won161,900,000,000 ISK Winnings Transformed to Blink Credit31,235,106,000 ISK Winnings Transformed to ISK24,949,820,000 ISK now if i was RMTing then i would transfer every single win to isk otherwise would be pointless... I have nothing to hide so unless you want to get a GM involved take your little 2 isk ass back to your carebear home and finally.. does a BOT really offer services to the other players eve, have you even bothered to check in teh trade channels.. speak to other players who have known me for 3 years before you start to slander my name. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1173454&page=1 1st service ive offered )still the only free copr creation service in eve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1297027&page=1 another service i offered with comments from customers. http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1360011/page/2#32 a public share offering Now do any of them look like the posts of a RMT etc. feel free to continue flaming or using my name but i am asking you first remove my name from the slander or i will get a GM to remove it (and yes i will ask them to audit my account and see if a single isk has been bought or sold in the 4yrs i have played the game) Your logic is great on game theory, which proves that you will always be in the black, and I'm fine with your quantity you have made from a bot standpoint, its soley the amount of time that is invested per day seemingly everyday that looks like a bot. As to the rmt once again this is proven though quantity. I figure you aren't doing that, at least with this account as you have been around and public. I will say I'm sorry if I came off saying you were rmt. I did use you as a general example. If your not doing that my bad To answer your question as to why someone would take the items, ccp would see the isk line disappear as somer bought the navy mega and give it to you, which you then sell. It would take longer but gives you another level of masking on your isk. As to your high popularity your right, that does make it hard to bot in game or rmt. I've not accused you of botting in game, just that you very much could be on blink and there is no way for ccp to tell so I can't go to them and say you are a bot and check because they can't. They don't own blink. And while botting on there is not a form of abusing the isk faucet it can and is money laundering.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.06 20:22:00 - [93] LMFAO I just went on yet another site which has 3407 active eve bot members <sigh> and it looks like people have created usernames based on eve players, haha almost every famous eve player is on there, ofc its all bull** since I doubt all the leaders want to risk but it is pretty funny Originally by:** Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Quazal Atreides Gallente Asteo Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.06 20:22:00 - [94] fair enough, im happy to open discussion on this :) It was the use of my name that i took offense too. Now the time in game, I can sit in game plug a load of single blink blinks in go and do a bit of reading (ftr my dissetation is on south indian cave art {im an archaeologist}) then come back 10/20 mins later etc. During busy times i can click refresh and play away. Yes if you look at my history of blink alone i can understand how you came to your conclusions but its no different than my roulette analogy just on a far far quicker turn around. But one part of your logic fails... Botting effects the game for miners/Ratters & plexers which has effect on the market etc. However RMT, if you were going to RMT using sites such as EOH & Blink would not pay, why not just buy 'n' sell trit in jita given on most days the difference between buy and sell is about 0.02isk difference (i spent 18motnhs in the mineral market ) on average lets assume a 0.015isk difference then that is just a 2% loss on buying from market and selling straight back to the buy orders if i use EOH *(and yes i play poker as well) then the rake is 5/10% and blink work on 15% (i dont know the exact rakes both sites take) but as you can see.. 1>2% loss by trading Trit or 10>20% loss by using other people websites/games... if your dealing in 10s of billions of isk, which one do you think the RMTers would do?? If its their real money business im sure they know that for every billion isk they launder they would lose upto 180mill isk by using Somer or Selene's site do you still think they would do it when they can just use the jita market that trades abotu 100/200billion isk a day on trit alone? think about that for logic
Klonc Zind	Posted - 2010.12.06 21:08:00 - [95] Cataclysm is comming to night, right? So this is not the best time for CCP to have this as a front page news. I've read more about Bots and RMT last few days then the new expansion . This just make me rethink my life... So please CCP tell me at least you are gonna look into this
Cyrus Doul Infinite Covenant	Posted - 2010.12.06 21:25:00 - [96] Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 06/12/2010 21:28:17 My logic on how accounts like yours seem very strongly RMT'y due to botting is that based on the mineral market all those transactions go on in game. since CCP controls the game it is really easy to say I think this guy is a bot and set up a monitor for it and watch the speed that it makes the .01 changes and how much it does (in the sense of 1 hour, 2 hours, 12 hours, 23 hours per day) you get a situation where its 23 hours per day every day and even if it was not a bot it would be account sharing which IIRC is also lifetime bannable so either way they got rid of an account that was EULA violating one way or another. (Granted if the persecuted every account share in the game i bet my titan list would shrink quite a bit.) I would also argue that those percentages for Blink are too high. You yourself have said that you have pumped in 118.5 billion isk and have won 161.9 billion in prizes with 31.25 billion redeemed for credit 161.9 prizes - 31.25 free reinvestment =130.65 legit isk / hardware winnings 130.65 - 118.5 Initial investment = 12.15 either in your account or in pure profit So with the numbers you have provided you have put in 118.5 billion, and have paid to you 130.65 Billion. if you have less then 12.15 billion in your Blink account currently you are running over 100% ROI. If you want proof of this look at Gonzattack. I can't do the math like I could with you but because of achievements its possible to tell that he has invested between 40 and 55 billion ISK into the system as i don't think taking blink credit counts towards those achievements as my own account has paid in 900 million and has 203,427,000 in winnings transformed into credits and I do not have the 1 billion isk achievement. This means that he has to have over 100 percent ROI unless he has recycled 141.37 billion back into as blink credit assuming he is sitting at 54.9 billion deposited or has just a massive amount sitting in his account that he doesn't use yet can't withdraw so its pretty much lost isk. And after talking to you I'll assume that you aren't a bot either now that you see where I'm coming from with why I said you are. I'm not going to redact the document as at this point we are already known for this discussion and changing it will just throw out most of the validity of this discussion, but I will publicly say I'm sorry. As you are the exception that proves the rule as they say I managed to pick one of the few that play as intense as you and yet are not actually a bot. That was my bad and until now I genuinely did think you were just someone trying to throw people off your scent.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.06 21:38:00 - [97] Originally by: randomthreadnaught You mix two types of truth in your logic. There is the type of truth that exists as a defining characteristic of something physical. My milk is cold. My apple is red. There also the type of truth that exists outside of physical characteristic like my mother was good to me. I really do think my mother was good to me, but this truth is far more complex than any physical characteristic of my mother. You can't jump between the two truths in your argument as if they are the same thing. Liberalism is a philosophy that isn't even defined by a single definition. As elgaberino pointed out, Liberism in most of the world and in the past is a philosophy based on rule by the common man free of the aristocratic authority in feudalism. Only in America and Canada to my knowledge has this label been applied to what you seem to mean by liberalsim. If you go to Germany and describe your conservative views, they will declare that you are a neo-liberal. To state that there is no truth in liberalism, because it is based on a relative truth invalidates conservative thought as well. There is no one approach to conservative policies. There is no one answer that will make everything run perfect in all scenarios. If this was the case, then I think every conservative president would have led to the election of another conservative president. In reality, liberalism is based on the foundation of the original liberalism rather than relativism. It is America's approach to freedom for the masses 100 years after we kicked out England. It was an attempt to overthrow the control of the powerful corporate leaders that in their view harm the masses. Conservatives in America base their philosophy on the same base with the theory that the government is the powerful elite causing harm to us. It is not about different truths. It is about different approaches to the same goal with different priorities. There can be no absolute truth here, because you aren't dealing with a simple subject with a simple right and wrong answer. /thread
Quazal Atreides Gallente Asteo Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.06 22:09:00 - [98] aye this is one problem with blink stats page, the figures we all see are not 'real values' They include the mark up that somer makes.. and i think the numbers are 5.8 > 6.2 tickets cover ships cost.. so lets work on 6tickets then 2 tickets are profit (so 25% ) the nubmers you see on people profiles include this 25% the true value of the ships are actually 75% of this.. So my winnings of 160bill is actually 75% of this so 120bill.. then as you said abot free money that has been transferred .. means from my 120bill deposited is actually 90bill (30bill transferred) and given that of my winnings 120bill, 30bill of this has not been withdrawn thats 90bill so basically all that isk means i have made little to no profit I am attempting to use emma to see real results.. but early esitmates suggest a profit or loss of about 5bill... it could go either way. TLDR the winnings are not market value, its market value + somer mark up.. (somewhere between 15>25% per normal blink/ship) so this always needs to be reduced from the somer stats page :)
Suitonia Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.12.06 22:19:00 - [99] Originally by: Quazal Atreides aye this is one problem with blink stats page, the figures we all see are not 'real values' They include the mark up that somer makes.. and i think the numbers are 5.8 > 6.2 tickets cover ships cost.. so lets work on 6tickets then 2 tickets are profit (so 25% ) the nubmers you see on people profiles include this 25% the true value of the ships are actually 75% of this.. So my winnings of 160bill is actually 75% of this so 120bill.. then as you said abot free money that has been transferred .. means from my 120bill deposited is actually 90bill (30bill transferred) and given that of my winnings 120bill, 30bill of this has not been withdrawn thats 90bill so basically all that isk means i have made little to no profit I am attempting to use emma to see real results.. but early esitmates suggest a profit or loss of about 5bill... it could go either way. TLDR the winnings are not market value, its market value + somer mark up.. (somewhere between 15>25% per normal blink/ship) so this always needs to be reduced from the somer stats page :) Not to mention that the 'winnings' include prizes converted back into blink credit, which is then used to win more blink credit etc. I only deposited 100m into blink, and got about 180m out of it. But my stats show that I have 'won' over 2 billion. despite the fact that I only ever kept transferring my prizes back into blink credit. ---
Erythorbic Benzoate	Posted - 2010.12.06 23:47:00 - [100] 1. I didn't read your post because your subject was in caps. 2. Fed. 3. Do yourself a favor, make a large scale MMO. Remember to make it so there are no errors or bugs so you don't upset anybody. Then when everyone fills the servers, make sure they don't lag. Next, you'll want to ensure that you personally know every single person that logs in so that you can police the RMT'ers and bots. Okay? Once you do that successfully, your complaint will be valid. Until then, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Cyrus Doul Infinite Covenant	Posted - 2010.12.07 00:28:00 - [101] Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 07/12/2010 00:33:24 Originally by: Quazal Atreides aye this is one problem with blink stats page, the figures we all see are not 'real values' They include the mark up that somer makes.. and i think the numbers are 5.8 > 6.2 tickets cover ships cost.. so lets work on 6tickets then 2 tickets are profit (so 25% ) the nubmers you see on people profiles include this 25% the true value of the ships are actually 75% of this.. So my winnings of 160bill is actually 75% of this so 120bill.. then as you said abot free money that has been transferred .. means from my 120bill deposited is actually 90bill (30bill transferred) and given that of my winnings 120bill, 30bill of this has not been withdrawn thats 90bill so basically all that isk means i have made little to no profit I am attempting to use emma to see real results.. but early esitmates suggest a profit or loss of about 5bill... it could go either way. TLDR the winnings are not market value, its market value + somer mark up.. (somewhere between 15>25% per normal blink/ship) so this always needs to be reduced from the somer stats page :) If that were the case on every item I guess you would be right. But the fact is is that some of the items are at market cost like that plex that you currently have slot nine on. if you cash that out by buying say 300 million in tickets you you know you are most likely going to win she will pay you 370 million to not have to buy the item but just give you the isk. Other things like that obelisk sure, you are going to take a loss on because I am assuming that it is displaying mineral basket prices to make the thing which is why its about 100 mil under cost. If you play the proper stuff though you will hit. As to if that is the amount you make if you win. I'm pretty sure that value could be off. I know for a fact though that the thing saying I have deposited 900 million in is correct. My character has the corroborating wallet to prove that the isk converted is a 1:1 match. and the blink credit is 1:1 I have six ships that are in processing for turning back into isk in my account. When that is done I can do the math to see what the offset if any is. Or if you win another thing just check what your value of winning is now vs when that one item gets added. See if it goes up by the buyout value or some other integer markup on a 18.9 million byout wolf when added to the winners prize kitty was 10 million isk. So your right on that. Only way to be able to tell is find all your pay ins, and all your pay out values including ship hulls.
Trupo Baptista	Posted - 2010.12.07 00:42:00 - [102] It¦s no good remove Local
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor Elite PWNED THEORY	Posted - 2010.12.07 02:31:00 - [103] Originally by: Trupo Baptista It¦s no good remove Local Keep local, keep local count... remove local list.
00 RatingBot987657	Posted - 2010.12.07 02:32:00 - [104] sage
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.12.07 02:42:00 - [105] Oh, it's time now, is it? Could have sworn the noise never ceased. My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.12.07 03:39:00 - [106] Whats's blink? guess i'll search after I get my daughter from basketball practice
oldmanst4r Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.07 04:22:00 - [107] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso Whats's blink? guess i'll search after I get my daughter from basketball practice Hey, your almost as old as I am! Have you had your first prostate exam yet? They are terrible, trust me. Originally by: CCP Shadow snip Castration successful. Shadow.
Stig Sterling Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2010.12.07 05:05:00 - [108] I think we should all gather our resources, and pay Istvaan to take down the botters from the inside. He could do it! .
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2010.12.07 08:21:00 - [109] If you really want CCP to address the bot use.. do so in a manner that doesn't hurt their wallet, and they might add some haste to the matter since I'm sure they are aware the vast majority of legit players of the game don't like it, at all. Get CSM to bust their balls about it, bust their balls in petitions, slap the issue across their face. If it makes headlines, just like '18 months'.. they will respond. So how can they do it without hurting their wallet, why not make it more enjoyable for the players as well too.. 1) Players file petitions. CCP investigate.. if confirmed.. Post the character on this site in a list of confirmed Bot-users. Lets make it known who is using bots, what players, what corps, what alliances take part and to what degree. 2) 3-month Kill Rights granted on that player.. for everyone. And it never disappears til the 3 month penality is up. If they continue to bot after that.. Kill rights for all again. 3) Break their ability to cloak and use unprobe-able mods. They want to break the game and rules and cheat.. break them. 4) Design a simple program that takes note when a player is adjusting buy/sell orders 23/7. Ban him not from the game, but from the station first offense.. spit him out of the station in pod/ship whatever he is in, red n flashy for all to shot. Does it again, ban the player from even entering a region. does it again in another region.. banned entering that region. Remember.. CCP owns your character and assets. They can do whatever they want with them. With these methods.. it gives players the chance to take action in entertaining ways, while CCP gets to keep making money off their subs. How many bot users will simply hide til it blows over, keeping their character active so they can work up skills? Quite a few, I'm sure. And to the people purchasing Isk on RMT sites.. you people are failures. Complete Failures. I get people purchase PLEX for sale in game to get iskies for PvP pewpew. That's legit. Trying to save a buck cause your rl broke ass can't afford the legit manner, and you suck ass in game to make enough isk on your own that you have to go the RMT route.. **ing Failures and probably dumber than ** eating monkeys. You people are the reason they exist. Anyone that argues against some sort of action taken against bots is a bot user themselves. Gank'em.. repeatedly. Til their voice disappears from the forums forever from them quiting. ---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it-
PhoenixDawn Gallente Forge Regional Security United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.12.07 10:21:00 - [110] Just do cloaks like they did with warp stabs... make it pretty much pointless to put a cloak on a ship intended to shoot something (other than ships specifically designed for cloaks, which always have crappy combat ability). Change the velocity penalty to a targeting resolution penalty. So if a non-covert designed ship fits a cloak it's strictly for one purpose: cloaking. The ship can't engage in any activity which requires it to target anything in a timely manner. So, botting ratters will be forced to remove their cloaks. If they want to use modules that reduce their sig against scanning they'll have no tanks, rendering them far too vulnerable to be efficient at ratting. This one change would not impact AFK cloaking and the like, but in one fell swoop essentially removes the macro bot safety net.

Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.07 10:31:00 - [111] Originally by: PhoenixDawn Just do cloaks like they did with warp stabs... make it pretty much pointless to put a cloak on a ship intended to shoot something (other than ships specifically designed for cloaks, which always have crappy combat ability). Change the velocity penalty to a targeting resolution penalty. So if a non-covert designed ship fits a cloak it's strictly for one purpose: cloaking. The ship can't engage in any activity which requires it to target anything in a timely manner. So, botting ratters will be forced to remove their cloaks. If they want to use modules that reduce their sig against scanning they'll have no tanks, rendering them far too vulnerable to be efficient at ratting. This one change would not impact AFK cloaking and the like, but in one fell swoop essentially removes the macro bot safety net. Sound good I guess or just limit cloaks to cloaky ships only :D But again theres more than one type of bot, not just ratters I would hate to see macro miners free from the hate. Also I went on another site which is the one that 'reads' the memory, while it requires a person with brains to actually use it, it supposedly is the king of all bots. I wouldnt suggest anyone go drooling spam downloading it, you would need to know how to script which is probably why the script is so popular with 0.0 mega alliances. Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.12.07 10:36:00 - [112] Originally by: Umega If you really want CCP to address the bot use.. do so in a manner that doesn't hurt their wallet, and they might add some haste to the matter since I'm sure they are aware the vast majority of legit players of the game don't like it, at all. currently the preferred approach is "Threaten to create enough drama to get the topic picked up by TTH, MMORPG.com, ... - hopefully the bad publicity and loss of potential subscribers would cost CCP more than banning the bots." Nevermind that banning the bots would probably send the in-game economy into spasmic seizures.
Pesadel0 the muppets Talos Coalition	Posted - 2010.12.07 10:59:00 - [113] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Originally by: Umega If you really want CCP to address the bot use.. do so in a manner that doesn't hurt their wallet, and they might add some haste to the matter since I'm sure they are aware the vast majority of legit players of the game don't like it, at all. currently the preferred approach is "Threaten to create enough drama to get the topic picked up by TTH, MMORPG.com, ... - hopefully the bad publicity and loss of potential subscribers would cost CCP more than banning the bots." Nevermind that banning the bots would probably send the in-game economy into spasmic seizures. Got the same opinion regarding CCP fastness to act upon this issue, about the economic afertmatch of the bot destruction ,well the economy would eventually recover and prosper even more, because they (legit players) would be competing with real players and not players that work 23/7.
Muul Udonii Minmatar THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.07 11:22:00 - [114] I don't actually have a problem with bots. If people want to use them and keep prices for my stuff lower; that's great. I don't even have a problem with RMT, but CCP should have a huge problem, and should be trying to prevent it. There's been a few good ideas in this thread; namely changing the way cloaks work to make it less effective to use them; or lowering the price of PLEX to make it less profitable. But the users will complain about either of these were they to implement them. I guess they just have to look at the economics of each (and others) and decide if there is actually anything worth doing at all.
Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.07 11:28:00 - [115] Edited by: Othran on 07/12/2010 11:28:22 Basically the client needs to be secured. That's the bottom line. We need to stop calling the bots "macros" because they're not. They are really replacing the client or modifying the data prior to the client sending or receiving it. As things stand, the client can be compromised or replaced by someone wishing to cheat. Its also subject to "man in the middle" compromises where the client is 100% genuine. Anyone with half a brain has worked this out by now but CCP continue to be unable to detect these attacks. I used to laugh at my wife's game as it took so long to load or patch. The jokes on me now though the only way to modify her client is by using encrypted patch files, each one of which is verified both on download AND when implementing the patch - every single file in the patch archive; client integrity is thoroughly checked every time it loads and there are "measures to prevent man in the middle exploits". Downside of patch process is that even when the patch is downloaded, the patch process can still take hours to decrypt/verify/re-encrypt the patch files.
frog0ut	Posted - 2010.12.07 11:54:00 - [116] Originally by: Muul Udonii There's been a few good ideas in this thread; namely changing the way cloaks work to make it less effective to use them; or lowering the price of PLEX to make it less profitable. But the users will complain about either of these were they to implement them. I guess they just have to look at the economics of each (and others) and decide if there is actually anything worth doing at all. Adjusting the Economy (which is player driven) isn't going to be effective, or well-recieved at all, as well as insanely difficult to implement without causing a major **** storm. I honestly don't think we should be calling for no local, anti-cloaks, etc. I think we should be calling for CCP to increase their counter-measures against bots. Why drastically change game mechanics to screw with some botters who will simply CTRL-Q instead of afk cloaking when hostiles are in local, or instead of reading local they'll just spam the scanner and CTRL-Q when they see something new appear on the scanner.
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.12.07 13:50:00 - [117] Edited by: riverini on 07/12/2010 13:50:24 Originally by: Muul Udonii I don't actually have a problem with bots. If people want to use them and keep prices for my stuff lower; that's great. I don't even have a problem with RMT, but CCP should have a huge problem, and should be trying to prevent it. There's been a few good ideas in this thread; namely changing the way cloaks work to make it less effective to use them; or lowering the price of PLEX to make it less profitable. But the users will complain about either of these were they to implement them. I guess they just have to look at the economics of each (and others) and decide if there is actually anything worth doing at all. Making the PLEX less profitable would then encourage a heavier black-market usage, since lower PLEX price = isk get less cheaper per USD, what CCP needs is a way to fractionate the PLEX and compete with RMT's in a way they totally gets them out of the market and ofc, being proactively combating botters since they are the primary source of RMT isk.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2010.12.07 14:42:00 - [118] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 07/12/2010 14:46:01 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 07/12/2010 14:45:42 Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 07/12/2010 14:42:52 Rumors are flying... EvE is dying... Players are crying... CCP are lying too... Manfred is shilling... Horus is spilling... The whole universe's gone to hell... But how are you? I'm super Thanks for asking All things considered I couldn't be better I must say! I'm feeling super Nothing bugs me Everything is super when your not subbed Bye bye editvote with your wallet....I did. editchanged a line cause <3 PL
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.07 14:50:00 - [119] Edited by: Kalle Demos on 07/12/2010 14:53:46 So I was a bit funny about the 40 mil an hour comment and decided to check on sisi yesterday and today to confirm this for the sake of things. Ok so I dont really know about the sov upgrades in a system and well I just assumed MI meant something ratting related (higher meaning more rats or some **), sadly only EC- (lol nc) was (and probably still is considering what was going on) the only MI 5 system and well I dont mean to point fingers at any alliance but I would assume based on what I saw this is the queen system for a special kind of testing. Anyway -0.45 (Syndicate) with a bc brought in without looting 22 mil an hour lol EC-, well I got flamed at and got told to gtfo out of the system gfgf, I was interrupting their 'private' testing. I went to a MI 3 in catch today (GE- -0.21), made about 29 mil but it wasnÆt a great system, not enough belts imo, ran out of ammo half way and well someone signed the corp up to militia recently on sisi out of all things and I was so ed at dying while autopiloting the way down I decided to just end things there So yeh I would say a person could make approx 40mil easily without a macro and that EC- is completely different on sisi to what it is like on tranq, if you know what I mean Oh and all testing was done manually, no botting and if you do happen to see my failfit losses to station guns they were only done for the sake of making ISK through insurance since well yeh everything is at full price (smartbombing noctis = 20mil x 10 = 200mil) How is this relevant to this thread, I donÆt really know tbh but thanks for reading. Originally by:** Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Muul Udonii Minmatar THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.07 15:28:00 - [120] Originally by: riverini Edited by: riverini on 07/12/2010 13:50:24Making the PLEX less profitable would then encourage a heavier black-market usage, since lower PLEX price = isk get less cheaper per USD, what CCP needs is a way to fractionate the PLEX and compete with RMT's in a way they totally gets them out of the market and ofc, being proactively combating botters since they are the primary source of RMT isk. I think you got the wrong idea; I'm saying the idea to reduce the úúú cost of PLEX is a good idea. That will mean that the ú/ISK rate is lowered; and RMT is less profitable for people. It would also have a secondary effect of increasing the sales; as people would buy more and prices would be more competitive.

Aessoroz	Posted - 2010.12.07 16:09:00 - [121] Edited by: Aessoroz on 07/12/2010 16:08:56 I propose a three prong attack. -Sniping alpha maelstroms at every low sec gate where 300+ macro haulers per minute pass through -Afk cloaker bombers in every russian system -Suicide ganks on a massive level in ice belts across the empire
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.12.07 16:15:00 - [122] Originally by: oldmanst4r Originally by: Diomedes Calypso Whats's blink? guess i'll search after I get my daughter from basketball practice Hey, your almost as old as I am! Have you had your first prostate exam yet? They are terrible, trust me. LOL.. yeah just had my first...the "simple" one the doctor does in 60 seconds or so. All I can say is thank god I'm not .gaay. Still need to figure out this "blink" thing
Soma Khan Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.07 16:47:00 - [123] man this thread is really going places __
Corcyrus Endymion Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming	Posted - 2010.12.07 16:51:00 - [124] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso Originally by: oldmanst4r Originally by: Diomedes Calypso Whats's blink? guess i'll search after I get my daughter from basketball practice Hey, your almost as old as I am! Have you had your first prostate exam yet? They are terrible, trust me. LOL.. yeah just had my first...the "simple" one the doctor does in 60 seconds or so. All I can say is thank god I'm not .gaay. Still need to figure out this "blink" thing You're just too cramped up. Relax and use more lotion next time, you'll be fine. I'm also feed up btw....
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.12.07 21:04:00 - [125] Originally by: Umega If you really want CCP to address the bot use.. do so in a manner that doesn't hurt their wallet, and they might add some haste to the matter since I'm sure they are aware the vast majority of legit players of the game don't like it, at all. Get CSM to bust their balls about it, bust their balls in petitions, slap the issue across their face. If it makes headlines, just like '18 months'.. they will respond. So how can they do it without hurting their wallet, why not make it more enjoyable for the players as well too.. 1) Players file petitions. CCP investigate.. if confirmed.. Post the character on this site in a list of confirmed Bot-users. Lets make it known who is using bots, what players, what corps, what alliances take part and to what degree. 2) 3-month Kill Rights granted on that player.. for everyone. And it never disappears til the 3 month penality is up. If they continue to bot after that.. Kill rights for all again. 3) Break their ability to cloak and use unprobe-able mods. They want to break the game and rules and cheat.. break them. 4) Design a simple program that takes note when a player is adjusting buy/sell orders 23/7. Ban him not from the game, but from the station first offense.. spit him out of the station in pod/ship whatever he is in, red n flashy for all to shot. Does it again, ban the player from even entering a region. does it again in another region.. banned entering that region. Remember.. CCP owns your character and assets. They can do whatever they want with them. With these methods.. it gives players the chance to take action in entertaining ways, while CCP gets to keep making money off their subs. How many bot users will simply hide til it blows over, keeping their character active so they can work up skills? Quite a few, I'm sure. And to the people purchasing Isk on RMT sites.. you people are failures. Complete Failures. I get people purchase PLEX for sale in game to get iskies for PvP pewpew. That's legit. Trying to save a buck cause your rl broke ass can't afford the legit manner, and you suck ass in game to make enough isk on your own that you have to go the RMT route.. **ing Failures and probably dumber than ** eating monkeys. You people are the reason they exist. Anyone that argues against some sort of action taken against bots is a bot user themselves. Gank'em.. repeatedly. Til their voice disappears from the forums forever from them quiting. Shamefully, even if your proposition is tempting, you need to keep in mind that the field must be leveled to all players (infracting or non-infracting) Am inclined to think if the micro-transaction stuff would be an RMT killer.
Pr0m Queen	Posted - 2010.12.07 21:17:00 - [126] Originally by: Aessoroz Edited by: Aessoroz on 07/12/2010 16:08:56 I propose a three prong attack. -Sniping alpha maelstroms at every low sec gate where 300+ macro haulers per minute pass through -Afk cloaker bombers in every russian system -Suicide ganks on a massive level in ice belts across the empire While I see no problem with 1st and 3rd statement, 2nd is disturbing. Can you show us any solid proof that all russians are evil or use bots or do any such things? I think you don't have it. As for me, I know for a fact that russian players DO REPORT others for botting if they suspect it. You've read an article on that so-called "news" site and decided you know the truth all of a sudden? Of course not, that article is well aimed and serves it's own purpose. In real world it's not nationality that makes you want to use a bot, it's your own greed. 99% of russian players play EVE for same reasons as everyone else - fun, some sort of escape from RL that it offers - thing like that. 99% of US players do too. And 1% maybe does botting. Know who those people are? Goldsellers. They don't usually care about what the game is, what they need to do - they just use bots. If they won't be able to use bots, they'd use cheap manpower. If you want to know real faces that sell ISK in EVE - look at every major alliance leaders, not just russians. For example Atlas had pretty rotten renter empire, IT has it now. They accumulate funds from rent, they don't have to run any bots - they "run" real people, all those nubs from empire that wanted to go nullsec, caberears, miners, pvpers - doesn't matter as long as their corps pay the rent. Do you know what rent you need to pay to be IT renter? 10*. Compare it to something like 800-900kk for renting in droneregs - maybe that' the reason there's a lot more renters? As for motivation and why NC got recently beaten there (even though we all know it was PL drawing their attention on 2nd front), didn't NC learn anything from Atlas failure? I personaly been in C-J battle where Atlas left the field and XiX & Co won, like 4-5 month ago or so. It was a clean victory for DRF... and if you ask any of their pilots - do they fight for real cash or for fun, honor and adrenaline rush, I'm sure they won't even understand the first part of the question. Have they ever saw any money profit from their game? Hell no, don't be stupid. I tell you - you want to see a real RMT king, then go ask Sir what he does for living OP is making fun of himself and his alliance. NC got beaten in dronelands, now he thinks it's because some sort of "better cause" gave russians the strenght to beat NC blob? Well, it's not only childish, it's plain stupid. First of all XiX & allies have blobs of almost same size as NC, 2nd - how the hell they'd have any motivation for RL cash? Pray tell me how you think they do it? Distribute the profit among members? How much that would be? 1 dollar per person per month? Nope, you got beaten by 3000+ man blobs just beacuse those people threat dronelands as their home. Russian tenacity has nothing to do with money. Same thing happened in south, where AAA, against all odds, regained it's strenght and is fighting to take back it's territory (AAA is half russian alliance, just so you know). And if we're talking about where else you can see russians fighting for some just cause - in NC you have Bricks and Stella, two more solid "BFF's" that are all about pvp. In south you have Stain Empire, you have what's left of ROL after all *s left to join WN. Those are all good alliances, Majesta's also good. At least used to be. P.S. sprry for typos, can't be bothered to read through it all again, i'm sure there are some. maybe later, bb hf
DUYSheep	Posted - 2010.12.08 01:02:00 - [127] DAMAGE CONTROL CCCC C C CCCC
chrisss0r Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.12.08 02:31:00 - [128] russians bot? never
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.12.08 02:47:00 - [129] Edited by: riverini on 08/12/2010 02:47:14 Quote: Considering the ammounts you just described, it seems there must be huge demand from eve population to buy isk. How many customers you supported? Around 300 are on my msn. With a daily request that not absorb more than 80% of my income i do daily around. How much si the average transaction and how you deliver the isk? 500ml x 12.I usually wait to have orders for 20b at minimum, so once every 4-5 days i make a new account, transfer the isk in various amounts, rarely 500000, more like 455448 , than make contacts, this account will be banned in 3-8 day usually cause he made like 20x contacts between 500ml and 5b (contracts). Average order is 2-3b so 90$ for each transfer. Could you describe little bit how you use the bots to generate isk you sell later on? How i use the bot do everything alone, including re-start after server downtime, i do only some daily check, like if all bot are alive, (only way to kill them is by using a blue spy for tackle one of my bot) anyway if a bot dies, he transfers information of hex code, of the killer, to others bots, who place it on a blacklist. So after the first loss, all others bots, if the ôblacklistedö blue enter on sys, warp to safe and cloak up. To explain, the bot does find the NPC¦s, kills them, reloads ammo and extracts loot? I don¦t make them loot, unless is an officer-faction spawn. They have an exact list of npc to kill (they chain) and npc to loot. Usually i chain all spawn 1,5ml x 3 + to every 20 min a good bot does, 12-15ml that means that a bot user pretty much can lose a fleet fitted drake every hour or a carrier daily or a ms every month and still be in green with profit. The average bot goes from 400 to 600ml day of liquid isk + officer+faction, so from 12 to 18b month + extra if you are lucky what officer/faction dropped. That means pretty much play eve as immortal, since none of what you lose, touches you for really. Where maybe others played years to reach a ms or a titan. The Full interview is in the evenews24 site, this... just... i don't even... Seriously, is CCP gonna do something about RMT?? R
Trajan Ultor	Posted - 2010.12.08 03:02:00 - [130] Originally by: riverini The Full interview is in the evenews24 site, this... just... i don't even... Seriously, is CCP gonna do something about RMT?? R What you think ?

Neo Gabriel Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.12.08 04:21:00 - [131] At least they stopped deleting threads, so its a sign tehy are not pretending its not a problem. If they don't take care of this once and for all the game will die. PS: If they dont ban eveyrone taht rmts and installs a warden type program i will cancel my accounts, because it will prevent future botting. PSS: They also need to fix the client code so people cant inject python. Its also sad since people have been doing rmt and cheating for many years and they never do anything about it. Why should i ever run lv4s in highsec when some guy with 3 pcs can make 20bil a month w/o effort at all?
Nipple Clamps	Posted - 2010.12.08 04:32:00 - [132] Are they recruiting botters? the 0.0 alliances or do they have all those slots filled. considering this is CCP sanctioned and encouraged I''m going to do everything possible I can to learn how to bot. HEY CCP I AM GOING TO BOT, I AM GOING TO LEARN HOW TO BOT, DOWNLOAD THE BOT AND RUN THE BOT IN 0.0 YOU WON'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT'S ALLOWED, AND IT SEEMS LIKE A PRETTY GOOD INCOME SOURCE MAYBE I CAN SELL SOME OF THE EXCESS ISK LIKE THE REST OF 0.0, OR YOU CAN GIVE ME GM POWERS SO I CAN GET FREE T2 BPO'S ETHER OR
aronne	Posted - 2010.12.08 09:55:00 - [133] I'm considering unsub. due to this issue. Better ccp find a solution asap and destroy all isk made in this way.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.08 10:01:00 - [134] Originally by: Aessoroz -Sniping alpha maelstroms at every low sec gate where 300+ macro haulers per minute pass through -Afk cloaker bombers in every known 0.0 botting system -Suicide ganks on a massive level in ALL belts across empire Slightly altered your post but I agree, since CCP cant be bothered todo anything I guess it is up to players once again to do something. Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw

CCP Spitfire	Posted - 2010.12.08 10:06:00 - [135] Spam posts removed. Please keep the discussion on topic. Spitfire Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online

Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.12.08 10:08:00 - [136] Originally by: Neo Gabriel PS: If they dont ban eveyrone taht rmts and installs a warden type program i will cancel my accounts, because it will prevent future botting. If they did start using a warden type program like WoW does then I'd probably cancel my account. Uninstalling WoW and then removing the left over Blizzard files, tends to mess up your system. Which, then is much simpler to reformat your hard drive to sort out the problem.
Lady Aja Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.08 10:25:00 - [137] what annoys me the most is the blatent exploitsing of trial accounts to run macro magnates to farm fee isk.. followed closly by the corp hoping mission running isk farmers in hi sec mission hubs. you cant war dec these pricks as they insta jump into a new corp the moment a new dec comes through. ccp dont give a flying ** about the harm they are doing to this game. CCP FU! do your **ing job.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.08 11:05:00 - [138] Warden sucks, glider can run freely without warden even noticing. Change the mechanics of mining making it more hands on and not point & click. Change NPCs AI make them smarter, make them warp jam, use EW more and warp off if in danger, this should apply to missions too Change the UI so it isnt designed to favour botters Botters can then keep their 982745983749823 botting accounts but will have to play more :P Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.08 12:29:00 - [139] I logged on after DT with a thought, based on Dotlan I asked myself "well if theres the option to see where all the NPC'ing is happening, then why not take advantage of those stats", sadly the stats were based on 24hours which werent really all that helpful. If there was an option "Number of NPCs killed in the last 1 hour" or "Average number of rats killed in the last 24 hours" maybe we could work out macro hot spots, for example a bot can freely rat 23.5/7 so the systems he is ratting is will have a higher ratting average than lets say a person who rats for 2 hours. As for macro miners which you guys are still neglecting to include in this problem, "Number of asteroids mined in the last hour" similar stats would at least give players the ability to intervene. While I feel CCP should be ultimately the ones to deal with this problem, I am sure if CCP introduced stats useful for us to use, players could at least hunt botters. I am now officially bitter about bots Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Syme Gallente Umbra Scientia Muneris	Posted - 2010.12.08 12:30:00 - [140] I am saddened by the sheer extent of botting. Although it means that I canÆt compete with the botters and the buyers of RMT isk, I can do passably well enough not to feel discouraged from playing the game. The issue for me is how the bots are effectively stopping newer players from engaging in parts of the game that used to be a standard part of learning the game and building starting capital, i.e. mining. Our corp used to mine its own ore for production and ice to run our POS. Doing this would get the whole corp together and let newer players engage with older players and earn decent isk, beyond what they would earn on their own. Now we donÆt bother; mineral and ice prices are so low that it no longer makes sense to mine low end mins ourselves.

Ram Strider Aliastra	Posted - 2010.12.08 12:42:00 - [141] Edited by: Ram Strider on 08/12/2010 12:43:17 Im gonna feed you in the bot if you dont tell me what RMT is? ps just ban every russian and chinese player from all online games, they all hack and cheat and sell ingame items on ebay, everyone knows this
Lilla Kharn Amarr B4D W0LF Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.08 12:54:00 - [142] Edited by: Lilla Kharn on 08/12/2010 12:55:48 RMT=Real Money Trading. Trading ISK or in-game items for real world money. To put my two cents in, I really like how EVE does not have a client side detection. It means I don't have to deal with something like PunkBuster or GameGuard screwing something else up on my computer because it runs the wrong way. I like being able to run two accounts at a time so I can jump my own carrier without having to scream for people to get on. (Disregard the trolls coming from the previous sentence.) However, botting and macro'ing does bother me. Not just RMT. How is it fair to me as an honest player that I can rat or run plexes or mission for 5 hours or so, then go to school or work while the guy next to me can go to school and work and come back and still be doing all that with no input? To comment on the replacing a MS in 1-2 days, they are supercaps. I mean come on, they aren't supposed to be ships that are expendable to that extent. I miss the days where flying one actually meant something, that owning something in this game meant something great. No, we shouldn't care about the other person and how they make their ISK, but it's a shame that those who don't play the game at all still get farther than the majority of those that do play the game. When did that become logical? ============================================= "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.08 12:55:00 - [143] Originally by: Ram Strider Edited by: Ram Strider on 08/12/2010 12:43:17 Im gonna feed you in the bot if you dont tell me what RMT is? ps just ban every russian and chinese player from all online games, they all hack and cheat and sell ingame items on ebay, everyone knows this KIAEddz is German :P and according to some of these sites, the best providers are from the US Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Dagny Bronstein	Posted - 2010.12.08 12:59:00 - [144] Edited by: Dagny Bronstein on 08/12/2010 13:04:31 Why should the players exert effort to fight this problem? If you like padding your killboard that's fine but at the end of the day the only way this problem can be solved is by CCP changing game mechanics and making a more serious effort in locking down the client. Trying to "solve" this issue by ganking botters is like fighting the hydra - maybe you could really manage to clear a small part of the EVE universe but in that case the RMT guys everywhere else would rejoice because less competition + perceived higher risk (for the ISK provider not the customer) = more profit for them. And CCP is of course very hesitant to take more than symbolic measures: for one, nobody can know for sure how the market would react (remember when +4 implants that are 22m now were 15m before Unholy Rage? less bots = less LP, less minerals but also less ISK -- prices for ships might go way up or the lack of ratting bots might cause some deflation (less likely imo as a large part of that ISK seems to go into the pockets of supercap builders and probably doesn't get released into the general economy) while on the other hand taking serious measures against automation can easily ruin gameplay and cost you lots of subscribers (Jagex apparently lost 60,000 Runescape subscribers after making massive gameplay changes to make botting more difficult). In my personal opinion miners are the big unknown in the equation - you cannot know how many of them "casually" use bots (i.e. not 23.5/7, only for personal income), you cannot know how many of those that don't use bots only mine because they can do it semi-afk (while doing other work) and as a result you cannot know how they would react to the introduction of mining minigames. Probing down mining sites in high-sec isn't difficult, isn't dangerous, doesn't require high in-game skills and can be very profitable - yet you see many people still mining belts. What should this tell us? Are miners just dumb, too lazy to use the scanner or does the lack of automation for scanning make these sites so underused?
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.08 13:21:00 - [145] Originally by: Dagny Bronstein If you cant beat them, join them Your concerns have already been noted, so I will sum up what WILL happen if things remain, more bots + more people leaving, soon enough eve will be Bots Online according to the current stats approx 20% of active only players are botting or have the potential to :P Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2010.12.08 13:21:00 - [146] Originally by: Cyrus Doul don't forget, Chribba, EOH and Somer are all actively making isk off of this I would not throw Chribba into one pot with EOH nor Somer. But in theory it can be way worse than just "making some percentage": 1.) Imagine some Lotto site operator would be the designated money recipient in a money laundering setup right from the beginning. 2.) Maintenance of external websites does cost real life money, right? If real money invested in some site external to EVE is capable of "generating" a stream of ISK income afterwards: Does that really differ from RMT ISK buying, just because there's some extra level of complexity inbetween (i.e. running a Lotto website, etc.)? 3.) If there's advertisement stuff on a site external to EVE, generating real life revenues of one form or another (be it Google ads, PLEX reselling related stuff, etc.): Would it then be valid to say ISK is being used to generate real money? Would that really differ from stuff like "Here's a loan of 1b ISK, have some fun, I expect you to pay back and add another 5 real life dollar on top before the week is over!", which could be seen as yet another form of RMT, "transfer" direction reversed this time?! BTW: Somer banned me from Blink chat and site some time ago... plenty of love out there! >:-)
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2010.12.08 13:47:00 - [147] RMT is bad. Botting is worse. Two ways to fight this: Punish the BUYERS of RMT harder Also promote more the usage of GTC's if you are in need of isk - maybe a login screen from time to time saying "RMT is bad, GTC is good". For those people who do not understand: for each isk sold to the RMT guys, CCP suffers a financial loss (the isk would have bought from CCP normally instead of the RMT) thus the funds for EVE are lower than they should be. Change GAMEPLAY so that botting isn't easy any more For example rootkits like punkbusters won't help, there are always ways around this. But if you have gameplay that cannot be automated then you get automatically rid of bots. Best examples for bad gamedesign: Ratting, hauling stuff, invention grinding, mining, PI - all bad because they only promote grinding and thus makes botting desirable and easy. Best example for good gamedesign: Exploration. It is not easy to handle exploration automatically - if they add some more variable elements (like space-structure so that you don't have a perfect sphere for the probe radius but instead dented potatoes) exploration will be even more interesting and less prone to botting. Now ... if you would change ratting, mining, PI and such also to make it a lot less repetitive, less grind and more interactive with unpredictable elements you will automatically have a better game PLUS tons of fewer bots! The interview on Evenews24 claims that CCP isn't doing anything against bots because CCP would profit from bots for all the GTC the buy. That is complete idioticy. Of coure CCP do NOT like bots. That guy said he sold 1.2 trillion isk during nine months - that are 1700 GTCs he stole from CCP (they could almost hire a new dev for that money!) and how many GTC did he use himself? 90? 100? So still 1600 GTC in the negative for CCP. It is total nonense that CCP doesn't want to do anything against bots because they would profit from the bots - that is 100% wrong. And all the people whining: Yes, YOU can do something against RMT and bots. Tell everyone and your friends how bad RMT and go to 0.0 and kill the botters. You can hurt the botters quite a lot - if you want.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.12.08 13:50:00 - [148] The biggest problem are the buyers because without out the buyers there would be no sellers. My obvious statement of the day!
Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.12.08 13:54:00 - [149] Edited by: Jaqel Broadside on 08/12/2010 13:56:04 Most of the botting problems could be solved immediately with the following: 1) Remove local -> Removes the information used by botters to warp and cloak. 2) Cloaking can only be continuous fora short period of time, after which the cloak burns out. Cloaking for transport works fine as jump gates "allow" cool down time - timer reset. 3) Remove sovereignty, free space should allow anyone to go try and take it by force at any time. 4) Stop putting high isk value at static sites. 5) Remove all static sites and make them scannable only - no static asteroid belts, NPC sites, complexes etc 6) Stop penalising high sec play and putting ever more ISK into null sec - up and coming players have to be able to challenge established playuers - give them the means to do so. 7) Stop creating expensive all out GANK ships like Titans and Motherships. No one ship should be that all encompassing that a few players can dominate regions. 8) Ban any kind of wealth transfer system to trial accounts above a few 100K isk - ie by trade or transfer ISK or named contract. Allow market and open contracts only. 9) NPCs should hunt players doing repetative play as NPCs do in FW or if you have bad sec in a region. As all good commanders would in RL, they'd hunt the main protagonists. 10) Limit play time to a maximum of a set number of hours per 48 hours - people HAVE to sleep bots dont. 11) Reward interactive play, monitor chat channels and if repetative or no chat exists from players then they are flagged as bots -> easy investigation. 12) It should be easy to spot any program running on a computer that interfaces with the APIs that allow botting to be performed. Microsoft should be able to tell you how to sppot these programs easily. By nerfing hisec activities all CCP has been doing is raising the bar on peole being able to afford to challenge established nullsec players. START REWARDING INTERACTIVE PLAY A WHOLE LOT MORE.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.12.08 13:58:00 - [150] Originally by: Jaqel Broadside 11) Reward interactive play, monitor chat channels and if repetative or no chat exists from players then they are flagged as bots -> easy investigation. Because people who don't talk much are not really people, amirite? Originally by: Jaqel Broadside 12) It should be easy to spot any program running on a computer that interfaces with the APIs that allow botting to be performed. Microsoft should be able to tell you how to sppot these programs easily. And everyone knows that MS Windows is the only operating system on the planet, of course. Seriously? --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.

Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.12.08 14:06:00 - [151] Originally by: De'Veldrin Originally by: Jaqel Broadside 11) Reward interactive play, monitor chat channels and if repetative or no chat exists from players then they are flagged as bots -> easy investigation. Because people who don't talk much are not really people, amirite? Originally by: Jaqel Broadside 12) It should be easy to spot any program running on a computer that interfaces with the APIs that allow botting to be performed. Microsoft should be able to tell you how to sppot these programs easily. And everyone knows that MS Windows is the only operating system on the planet, of course. Seriously? I take it getting in touch with Unix and Mac operating systems engineers is beyond the scope of the internet or the telephone ??? And yes most people speak in a chat channel,,, I see you can even be bothered to post on here.
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.12.08 14:08:00 - [152] Edited by: Forum Guy on 08/12/2010 14:13:44 Originally by: Jaqel Broadside Edited by: Jaqel Broadside on 08/12/2010 13:56:04 Most of the botting problems could be solved immediately with the following: 1) Remove local -> Removes the information used by botters to warp and cloak. 2) Cloaking can only be continuous fora short period of time, after which the cloak burns out. Cloaking for transport works fine as jump gates "allow" cool down time - timer reset. 3) Remove sovereignty, free space should allow anyone to go try and take it by force at any time. 4) Stop putting high isk value at static sites. 5) Remove all static sites and make them scannable only - no static asteroid belts, NPC sites, complexes etc 6) Stop penalising high sec play and putting ever more ISK into null sec - up and coming players have to be able to challenge established playuers - give them the means to do so. 7) Stop creating expensive all out GANK ships like Titans and Motherships. No one ship should be that all encompassing that a few players can dominate regions. 8) Ban any kind of wealth transfer system to trial accounts above a few 100K isk - ie by trade or transfer ISK or named contract. Allow market and open contracts only. 9) NPCs should hunt players doing repetative play as NPCs do in FW or if you have bad sec in a region. As all good commanders would in RL, they'd hunt the main protagonists. 10) Limit play time to a maximum of a set number of hours per 48 hours - people HAVE to sleep bots dont. 11) Reward interactive play, monitor chat channels and if repetative or no chat exists from players then they are flagged as bots -> easy investigation. 12) It should be easy to spot any program running on a computer that interfaces with the APIs that allow botting to be performed. Microsoft should be able to tell you how to sppot these programs easily. By nerfing hisec activities all CCP has been doing is raising the bar on peole being able to afford to challenge established nullsec players. START REWARDING INTERACTIVE PLAY A WHOLE LOT MORE. OTT springs to mind. I'd like to see the buyers hit hard not the sellers, because like I said before it's the buyers that perpetuate the market. I used to mine in a Hulk with one character with cargo expanders. Took about 20 minutes to fill up, once full fly back to the station unload then fly back to the book-marked asteroid and repeat. Even have been asked if I was a bot in the past whilst mining. Mining is not that interactive, great for watching a film or reading a book at the same time. As for a time limit that's just a daft idea. I myself can easily knock-up 32+ hours in 2 days if I wish. I also see people slipping in the get rid of local in 0.0 argument as a solution which just says to me its pvp players that want to get rid of local for pvp reasons using botters as the excuse.
Captain Pompous Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It	Posted - 2010.12.08 14:20:00 - [153] Originally by: Quazal Atreides Originally by: Cyrus Doul , By doing so the money can leave their account. get washed by blinks account and sent back as an actual item instead of isk again. Adding one more layer of masking to it. you see people like Quazal Atreides on there 15+ hours a day. at this point they have bots for the bots. He at this point has put at least 55 billion isk into the game as shown by his achievements. A" Firstly who the ** are you calling me a bot, I am a player who has enough isk to gamble just because you have to beg borrow steal to get enough isk to play per month that aint my problem and for the record this is taken directly from Somer site ISK Deposited118,500,000,000 ISK Blinks Played8,433 Promo Blinks Played49 Blinks Won1,138 Megablinks Won96 Win Ratio13.49% Value of Blinks Won160,076,000,000 ISK So a bot am i :) the fact if you even bothered to get off your lazy arse and investigate is that i sit in the blink channel all day and chat away you can pop in most times and say hi. Hey half time im in game half time im the fact that i can do research on my final dissatation paper and click a button and win things is non of your Fing business. So next time you decide to call someone a bot please get off you lazy arse and do some investigation. If you even bothered to do checking on me on the forum you would see that i run succesfull business and ddonate to the community (not much granted) but more than some whiny ass 2isk pimp like you. Thanks and good night! NB This script wasn't written by a Bot but a **ed of player who like most people in eve takes great pleasure in killing/and hutting out ratting/mining macros Stop whining you jumped up Jita spammer --- ☻♥ Problem? Therapy sessions ♥☻
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.08 14:33:00 - [154] Originally by: Gnulpie Stuff Right, kill off parts of EVE cause they are too easy to bot instead of trying to secure the client, lowering the cost of GTC and cracking down on buyers of RMT by getting tougher on them AND promoting the acceptable method of 'buying isk' in game. Oh and we should all take up to working for CCP while conversely paying them to play their game so WE can do their jobs and attack suspected bots, cause that is all we as players can do suspect someone is a bot, no **ing thanks. CCP gets out of providing the full use of PLEX/subscription for accounts they ban for RMT, so if 50 PLEX are used CCP didn't have to provide 50 full months of service on them, it could have been as little as a few days for each one or as long as it took for CCP to notice the RMT transactions were happening. Additionally CCP should very easily have numbers on how many accounts are likely bots in that they can see 23/7 activity in space, ie fighting NPCs, over just station spinners as well as very diligent scheduling that likely only a bot would have. That number represents how many accounts are paid for in advance every month, only CCP has those numbers and thus knows how much they make based off the premise that people will buy the RMT isk the owners are trying to sell, not sold, trying to sell before CCP finds them and shuts them down. I'd also add that saying that RMT sales = lost GTC sales is false, just as the RIAA saying music downloads equate to lost record sales, we don't know how many people would or wouldn't buy RMT isk if it didn't exist there isn't a one to one formula because the prices are different and people have different motivations for why they'd risk banning/getting put in the red over just getting it the game 'legal' way. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--**
Karoll Borman	Posted - 2010.12.08 15:05:00 - [155] There is no MMORPG in existence, which doesn't require mundane, mind-blowing and massive grinding in order to achieve your goals. Not one. As long as the gameplay forces players to do grinding, the game is doomed to be automated. Simple as that. We all know how much mining is needed for the minerals, required to construct Tier 1 Battleship, if you do it by yourself. We all hate the mandatory Corp Mining Ops twice a week, so we can replenish and re-supply our assets. It is fun for the rookies first couple of times, but then it becomes extremely boring. We all know that. And then it is not fun anymore. It is job. If you don't show up, the CEO whines. Corpmates who have more time to play than you, whine. Everyone whines. Team effort becomes a burden, soon or a later. - >This is the moment you start looking for alternatives. Wait, the game allows you to crate alt. Game allows you to pay with in-game currency for play time. -> Screw that, I'm not paying with real money for my game time, since the game allows it. I can easily download a bot, which I can set up in 15 minutes. And it can mine all day, feed me and the botting account, in HS, risk free. Because the gameplay allows it. And the gameplay even encourages it. WTF do you want, people? EVE's base gameplay is extremely grinding and time-demanding, there will always be bots, since it would take many days for player or group of players to grind the resources to support themselves. How insane must a person be to seat himself after a long working day, and... watch rocks in space, engulfed in mining lasers... for hours. Nothing else. For hours. Or to run HS plexes. Or to rat in NPC space. Or to mission. Same boring missions over and over. Again, this time sing with me: All MMORPGs are grinding and time-demanding, therefore they are forcing players to automate them! No matter how expensive the Trit will be, if there are no botters, mining will still be as boring as ****.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2010.12.08 15:16:00 - [156] Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: Gnulpie Stuff Right, kill off parts of EVE cause they are too easy to bot... Did you read my post because it doesn't look like it. What part of EVE would you kill by removing senseless grind? What part would be killed if for example the klickfest of PI would be replaced by some better game design which makes PI actual fun AND pretty impossible to bot? Same with mining which is just a no-brainer grind, some with how invention work (install job, deliver, install build job, deliver, rinse and repeat, perfect for bots and booring). Botting usually reveals a major flaw in the game design. And making GTC cheaper? Yeah suuuuure. Great idea. Why not make them free, then you get 100% completely rid of RMT and botters, right?
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.12.08 15:48:00 - [157] Rabble rabble rabble. No moar bots. Hire me to keep tabs on them. I will give every single one a fair and honest permaban.
ChingChongCha	Posted - 2010.12.08 15:56:00 - [158] Two easy solutions, although I doubt it will ever be done because CCP will loose to much income. Yes, they are making money from the bots as well. 1) Get rid of GTC's completely!!! 2) Get rid of character sales. Someone give you a character (for nothing) or you train one. There are no other way. Anything else will punish the players who are not involved in this bull**** as well.
chrisss0r Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.12.08 16:27:00 - [159] Originally by: ChingChongCha Two easy solutions, although I doubt it will ever be done because CCP will loose to much income. Yes, they are making money from the bots as well. 1) Get rid of GTC's completely!!! 2) Get rid of character sales. Someone give you a character (for nothing) or you train one. There are no other way. Anything else will punish the players who are not involved in this bull**** as well. so your solution to fight black markets is to kill off legit markets completely? you sir are pretty stupid
StyweBal Mercenaries of Andosia Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2010.12.08 16:45:00 - [160] Originally by: chrisss0r Originally by: ChingChongCha Two easy solutions, although I doubt it will ever be done because CCP will loose to much income. Yes, they are making money from the bots as well. 1) Get rid of GTC's completely!!! 2) Get rid of character sales. Someone give you a character (for nothing) or you train one. There are no other way. Anything else will punish the players who are not involved in this bull** as well. so your solution to fight black markets is to kill off legit markets completely? you sir are pretty stupid No, you sir, are stupid as **! These markets are NOT in game. PLEX were introduced in game to make it "easier" but is part of nothing else in game. Can you comprehend the difference??? I doubt. Are you making some RL cash from this as well? I guess so, looking at your response.

chrisss0r Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.12.08 16:52:00 - [161] u mad? if you kill off methods to turn your cash into isk legally people will do it by rmt. if you kill off methods to use your isk to buy a character people will instead sell their isk for cash and use the cash to buy a character. plex and charactertrade DECREASE rmt. Killing off plex/gtc would be the best thing you can do for the rmt guys. just like banning alcohol was a ****ing kickstart for the 30's mafia business
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.12.08 16:57:00 - [162] Originally by: chrisss0r u mad? if you kill off methods to turn your cash into isk legally people will do it by rmt. if you kill off methods to use your isk to buy a character people will instead sell their isk for cash and use the cash to buy a character. plex and charactertrade DECREASE rmt. Killing off plex/gtc would be the best thing you can do for the rmt guys. just like banning alcohol was a ****ing kickstart for the 30's mafia business Stiffer penalties for buyers would help may deter some from going that route.
Spurty Caldari D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2010.12.08 17:01:00 - [163] Edited by: Spurty on 08/12/2010 17:02:33 chrisss0r = completely correct They are clearly sane and just displayed more than adequate knowledge of market forces. Other guy = He is 'foaming' a bit there Lowering the RL cost of legitimate ISK via GTC sales forces illegitimate ones out of business. Why add RISK to your purchase? +1 to chrisss0r, -50DKP to nay-sayers. CCP aren't ignorant of RMTing, they just move 'slower' and they wield one heck of a big stick to thwack em with. Hoppit!
StyweBal Mercenaries of Andosia Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2010.12.08 17:03:00 - [164] Originally by: chrisss0r u mad? if you kill off methods to turn your cash into isk legally people will do it by rmt. if you kill off methods to use your isk to buy a character people will instead sell their isk for cash and use the cash to buy a character. plex and charactertrade DECREASE rmt. Killing off plex/gtc would be the best thing you can do for the rmt guys. just like banning alcohol was a ****ing kickstart for the 30's mafia business Of course I'm mad. That said, the client needs some hardcore securing as well with the suggestions Ching made to be completely effective, else yes, bots will go on.
chrisss0r Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.12.08 17:08:00 - [165] Originally by: StyweBal Originally by: chrisss0r u mad? if you kill off methods to turn your cash into isk legally people will do it by rmt. if you kill off methods to use your isk to buy a character people will instead sell their isk for cash and use the cash to buy a character. plex and charactertrade DECREASE rmt. Killing off plex/gtc would be the best thing you can do for the rmt guys. just like banning alcohol was a ****ing kickstart for the 30's mafia business Of course I'm mad. That said, the client needs some hardcore securing as well with the suggestions Ching made to be completely effective, else yes, bots will go on. you are also stupid. the suggestions you (ching) made won't fix ANYTHING. they will make things worse. whats so hard to understand? Atm you can either choose to buy a character with let's say 10b isk or buy it on ebay with the cahs-equivalent of 7 bill isk but with the risk to get banned and have nothing. Many people take the safer route and pay a bit more for char transfers. Killing the legal way people will have to use rmt.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.12.08 17:11:00 - [166] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 08/12/2010 17:15:22 Originally by: Spurty Lowering the RL cost of legitimate ISK via GTC sales forces illegitimate ones out of business. Why add RISK to your purchase? +1 to chrisss0r, -50DKP to nay-sayers. allowing people to pay for their subscription with ISK (via GTC trade, PLEX) makes botting much more attractive. bot => sell ISK for RL cash => pay for subscription is :effort: bot => PLEX is easy the "if I run my mining bot for a few hours every weekday while I am at work/school/uni, I can play this game for free" argument is a strong one. ... and without any data to back me up (but with some ex-corp/alliance-mates in mind) I would expect most bot users to be of that type - no connection to direct RMT, money laundering, ... using a primitive mining bot to make some ISK during the times they cannot play.
Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.08 17:15:00 - [167] Everyone is focusing a little too much on RMT. Lets just look at in-game effects. Assume the bots don't do RMT, they only pay for the account via PLEX. Now you've seen some wild figures thrown around but lets take a very conservative view for a few seconds. Assume the bot is just run by someone who starts it up when they go to work/school for 8 hours. Now we'll assume that the isk/hour figures for the bot are overstated on the various sites. Lets say 10mill/hour OK? So for the month we have : 10(mill) x 8(hours) x 30(days) = 2.4 billion isk. Every month. BEFORE you even start playing the game. That's just for a "casual" botter who is actually a player, not a RMT *****. I've been in alliances/corps where there's always someone that seems to have been "left logged in by mistake" and doesn't talk for 10 hours or so on channels or vent/TS. Haven't most of you noticed the same and isn't it always the same people now you think about it? Eve sov gameplay is screwed really - and its not the riches of moons that are doing it, its the ability to generate isk literally from nothing (npc bounties) while being at work.
Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.12.08 17:38:00 - [168] Originally by: chrisss0r Originally by: StyweBal Originally by: chrisss0r u mad? if you kill off methods to turn your cash into isk legally people will do it by rmt. if you kill off methods to use your isk to buy a character people will instead sell their isk for cash and use the cash to buy a character. plex and charactertrade DECREASE rmt. Killing off plex/gtc would be the best thing you can do for the rmt guys. just like banning alcohol was a ****ing kickstart for the 30's mafia business Of course I'm mad. That said, the client needs some hardcore securing as well with the suggestions Ching made to be completely effective, else yes, bots will go on. you are also stupid. the suggestions you (ching) made won't fix ANYTHING. they will make things worse. whats so hard to understand? Atm you can either choose to buy a character with let's say 10b isk or buy it on ebay with the cahs-equivalent of 7 bill isk but with the risk to get banned and have nothing. Many people take the safer route and pay a bit more for char transfers. Killing the legal way people will have to use rmt. Actually if the account was verified and traceable then no fraud would be possible at all. Buying characters by what so ever means just promotes fraudulant activities. All character sales should be banned - they should be terminated and that's it. All accounts should be paid for by CASH via accepted means - any payment method which cannot be verified should be disabled. Quite frankly if this situation isnt sorted the people who do pay for the game will leave. I know because that is on the cards for accounts I pay as it will be for anyone else who realises they could do something more valuable with their time. There are no excuses any more,,, none what so ever. There is NO reason to even have these high ISK value NPCs at stastic sites,, neither is there a reason to have shpis like the Raven that dont require human input to survive. A radical rething is needed to stop this process now or there will be no game.
Feilamya Missions Mining and Mayhem	Posted - 2010.12.08 18:01:00 - [169] Originally by: Othran I've been in alliances/corps where there's always someone that seems to have been "left logged in by mistake" and doesn't talk for 10 hours or so on channels or vent/TS. Haven't most of you noticed the same and isn't it always the same people now you think about it? There are entire corps and maybe even alliances of obvious farmers, who are blue to some of the major power blocks. A short trip through the drone regions can open your eyes for the real magnitude of the RMT problem.
Jessicat	Posted - 2010.12.08 18:05:00 - [170] CCP do something!

Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.08 18:10:00 - [171] Originally by: Feilamya There are entire corps and maybe even alliances of obvious farmers, who are blue to some of the major power blocks. A short trip through the drone regions can open your eyes for the real magnitude of the RMT problem. I've been to Stain and seen the AAA Citizens Ravens thanks Been out to Perrigen Falls too, Oasa and the Spire. The point I was trying to make is that even for someone who doesn't care about RMT, this bollox affects you as its simply cheating. No need to talk about RMT - if your enemy has more members who bot when at work than you do then he'll likely win the sov war* *assuming equality in TZ participation etc.
gfldex	Posted - 2010.12.08 18:30:00 - [172] /me goes into 28-days-rage-monkey-cage-rattle-mode after reading this article
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2010.12.08 18:40:00 - [173] Originally by: Feilamya Originally by: Othran I've been in alliances/corps where there's always someone that seems to have been "left logged in by mistake" and doesn't talk for 10 hours or so on channels or vent/TS. Haven't most of you noticed the same and isn't it always the same people now you think about it? There are entire corps and maybe even alliances of obvious farmers, who are blue to some of the major power blocks. A short trip through the drone regions can open your eyes for the real magnitude of the RMT problem. Bull. You've never been to the drone regions. ...
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2010.12.08 20:02:00 - [174] Carebears buy ISK The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.08 20:07:00 - [175] Originally by: Razin Originally by: Feilamya Originally by: Othran I've been in alliances/corps where there's always someone that seems to have been "left logged in by mistake" and doesn't talk for 10 hours or so on channels or vent/TS. Haven't most of you noticed the same and isn't it always the same people now you think about it? There are entire corps and maybe even alliances of obvious farmers, who are blue to some of the major power blocks. A short trip through the drone regions can open your eyes for the real magnitude of the RMT problem. Bull. You've never been to the drone regions. I do feel sorry how the bad press is on you guys, theres botters everywhere in 0.0 and people cant really single out the Russians espeically when the 'Russians are botters' propaganda was started by nc lol Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Ulrich Ultor	Posted - 2010.12.08 22:07:00 - [176] I'm returning to the game after a long break and this boils up. Everyone knows botting occurs, but if it is so widespread that no 0.0 power block can maintain power without botting I am concerned. If all the time spent fighting in 0.0 was ultimately a waste why play the game ? If power blocks exist not only to win a spaceship game but also to make money, both through cheating, something is askew.
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2010.12.08 23:18:00 - [177] Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 08/12/2010 23:24:54 Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 08/12/2010 23:23:13 1) there is NO big 0.0 ally which does not run bots. Sometimes just some of the members, sometimes even "corp-owned" bots. PvP IS expensive and for most people it's an ISK-sink with sero gain (they gain fun but no ISK). So they need some sort of income. As most PvP player HATE PvE they don't want to rat/missioning/trade/produce, they chose the easy way of RMT and/or boting. 2) as there are ways to program bots there are ways to program anti-bots (tools to detect bots). It's just a question if the game owner want this anti-bots or not. In addition you need someone to check the findings of this anti-bots (like you need someone to check the bot from time to time). 3) Chribba is a trader, he does not care who sells or buys stuff from him. He want profit. Even IF he knows, that the ISK is illigal made, he wouldn't care to much as long as his accounts/chars aren't in dangure and his profit is save. But where should he know it from? Rumores? Will the seller/buyer tell it to him? Very unlikely. And as long as it is just a rumore ... he might contact CCP to check it. But why should he as long as he know "I am proven as secure at CCP"? He might contact CCP under 2 circumstands: - some party scammed him - he get the feeling his acc/chars/goods are in dangure Is it legit what he do? Technical yes! Is it "right" what he do? If he like the game no! Originally by: Ulrich Ultor I'm returning to the game after a long break and this boils up. Everyone knows botting occurs, but if it is so widespread that no 0.0 power block can maintain power without botting I am concerned. If all the time spent fighting in 0.0 was ultimately a waste why play the game ? If power blocks exist not only to win a spaceship game but also to make money, both through cheating, something is askew. Well, ANY online game has this problem and from all the games I played the "top player/guilds/corps" allways used cheats, exploids, bugs, RMT to get and hold this status. As boring as it is but you must except it, if you want to have some fun :(. "I will never be one of the top players as I REFUSE TO CHEAT!" PS: and that's why PvP in any game is pritty useless anyway. Use no cheat = can't compet => no reson to PvP => relax with PvE ;)
The Git	Posted - 2010.12.09 00:01:00 - [178] Make mining a known asteroid belt an NPC activity only. The only exception would be randomly seeded asteroids found through exploration. Any other player acquired minerals would be derived from processed loot and ships. Create a true salvaging ship that will collect entire wrecks and return them to station for reprocessing. Sure, the idea needs a lot more fleshing out....but it's a start.
Kireiina	Posted - 2010.12.09 01:21:00 - [179] I would like to see CCP address this issue. It warps and perverts the game and ultimately will drive off people trying to play it by the rules. How they actually solve it I'm not so concerned about. Realistically though Eve is on the back-burner, as a company CCP really needs to get Dust and WoD out, so not expecting too much is a good bet.
Derek McGiggles	Posted - 2010.12.09 06:55:00 - [180] Originally by: Kireiina Realistically though Eve is on the back-burner, as a company CCP really needs to get Dust and WoD out, so not expecting too much is a good bet. Sometimes, it really feels like it is...

knobber Jobbler Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.09 07:08:00 - [181] re: lowering cost of gtc: one that can't be done and 2, people in wormholes make to much money as it is, which is where some of the problem lies. stop botters and reduce wormhole profits and gtc may go down. but there are so many ways in eve to make vast sums of money with little effort if you have multiple accounts and you play more than a casual player. as a casual player the rise in gtc prices is welcome as I pvp and don't have time to grind anything, even null sec anoms.
Sister Hypatia	Posted - 2010.12.09 07:19:00 - [182] "I don't want pve it's bad and boring, I want only pvp" is a common excuse for botting or rmt. Eve does not have pve or pvp, it is not pvp or pve game. Eve is a sandbox and cheating turns it into litter box. Do not want.
Caldari Citizen2323256	Posted - 2010.12.09 10:59:00 - [183] Quote: CCP have no interest in removal of bots, because more bots = more clients, and trust me none of bot user pay the subscription, they buy gtc. so they use a ****load of gtc, buyed legally. For every bots there is a gtc, in game, buyed from ccp, at a cost that is higher, than what you can buy from chinese. Says a certain RMT'er on an unmentionable Eve News site.
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.09 11:20:00 - [184] Originally by: knobber Jobbler re: lowering cost of gtc: one that can't be done and 2, people in wormholes make to much money as it is, which is where some of the problem lies. stop botters and reduce wormhole profits and gtc may go down. but there are so many ways in eve to make vast sums of money with little effort if you have multiple accounts and you play more than a casual player. as a casual player the rise in gtc prices is welcome as I pvp and don't have time to grind anything, even null sec anoms. When I say lower GTC I'm talking about the real dollar cost to people not the otherside which is then PLEX ingame, that is not controlled by CCP. IF CCP lowers the cost for GTC the immediate effect is you get more isk per real dollar spent when selling PLEX, now the market can adjust to decrease that, counter productive to fighting RMT, but on the surface it is more competitive with the RMT people and lowers their profit margins as well as CCP but CCP can/may reclaim alleged 'lost' sales. Why a GTC price can't be lowered is beyond me $35 for 2 months game time at a rate of $17.50 per PLEX the regular monthly cost is $15 per month on monthly sub, $13 on a 3 month sub and $12 on a 6 month sub and $11 on a yearly plan. GTC have a $5 cost that could be 'dropped' to equal a real month of regular subscription time, or even dip to a 3 month cost or somewhere between the month and 3 month cost. Of course it wouldn't even need to be 'on the table' if CCP was more successful in stopping RMT and botting. We can argue that 'everyone' makes too much ISK from 00 moon goo/plex/rat chaining/etc to mission runners and so on the first thing and I see you acknowledge it is to stop the botting so that to make the isk you have to be present playing, more or less. It absolutely is FINE that if you have more than one account and play more than a casual player you make more than a casual player, how else should it be, you put in more effort/time and or money on subscriptions you should reap more benefit. The 'line' is that you shouldn't gain from misusing the system with bots/macros or be allowed to get away with RMT sales or buying and 'isk washing' it to keep for your main, that is the gain with little effort which isn't right. There may be 'too much isk' in the game and the only way to curb that is to aggressive stop botting/macros that artificially create ISK along with more ISK sinks, if that is done the isk in game will get consumed in time especially with all the WTF Supercap lag fests. CCP's approach seems to me will be "let's nerf isk creation and/or add more ISK sinks" rather than the real problem which is bots/macros generating it at inhuman rates. I have some hope CCP might be going in the right direction with the updates of recent but CCP hasn't inspired me that they are working on the problem and it may just be my wishful thinking as their past efforts and behavior shows me more a complicit attitude than one of fighting it on every front. If a player wants to spend all day/or days sitting in a chair or on a toilet not bathing or interacting with people in RL to generate their millions or billions that is fine it is when they let a program do it for them that we have a problem. In the end bots/macros will never go away but real efforts can be made to limit their prevalence and put the fear in people to not do it as they will get banned and lose their accounts/characters. Now it is IMO the view that people can 'get away with it' and that by taking certain steps they can insulate their mains from banning by various means, if that weren't true we wouldn't have as many isk billionaires or the RMT market still kicking as it is. TLDR: I want cornflakes. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
knobber Jobbler Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.09 11:45:00 - [185] I agree with many of your points and I want to see RMT and botting gone. The whole selling GTC is a double edged sword in this regard. Myself the genuine player with 1 account benefits from this but it turns out now, that so does the botter/RMT person. If it takes GTC removal as part of the solution then I support it. One thing I noticed in my years of EVE is when GTC selling was introduced, a player with 1 or 2b ISK was no longer considered rich. You're now only considered rich if you have 20b+. What ****es me of most is some alliances using RMT or bots to fund themselves. I often puzzles me just how certain corps and alliances fund themselves, it was pretty obvious but now its really clear. CCP, if you don't remove the bots and RMT's then the players that buy from the RMT will leave EVE, leaving you with a dead game.
MadManMaura Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2010.12.09 13:15:00 - [186] has CCP even bothered to say this is a problem or is it true they just dont care about botters, the russian drone areas are loaded with em. but seeing as CCP never fired the person who was giving bob BPO and other faction eqipment this should be no suprise
Michwich	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:07:00 - [187] Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:07:21 What if you could buy bots (or macros as you old timers like to call them) with plex? or money, whatever. Itd be the same thing as buying isk from ccp, it would be legit and you wouldnt get mad. ?
Mr FourEyes	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:10:00 - [188] Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:07:21 What if you could buy bots (or macros as you old timers like to call them) with plex? or money, whatever. Itd be the same thing as buying isk from ccp, it would be legit and you wouldnt get mad. ? I think your high, we dont want any botters anyway anyhow. I take it your a russian botter
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:16:00 - [189] Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:07:21 What if you could buy bots (or macros as you old timers like to call them) with plex? or money, whatever. Itd be the same thing as buying isk from ccp, it would be legit and you wouldnt get mad. ? A bot or macro makes ISK by abnormally and continuously doing things that make ISK in such a manner that a normal person could not do except for short stints aka marathon gaming sessions. Buying GTC converting them to PLEX and selling them doesn't make ISK at all, it simply transfers ISK created by a bot or a human to another account. So no they wouldn't be the same thing botting/macros create ISK and buying GTC selling PLEX transfers it. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Michwich	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:19:00 - [190] ^^^ The difference being, the bot you buy from ccp will make 360million a month, instead of buying 360million isk from ccp you'll buy a bot which makes the same amount of isk but over a longer period of time. It will be cheaper. So now you have the option of buying isk whenver you want.. via plex for $15 or you can buy a bot for lets say $2 and it will give you the same amount of isk but at a slower rate. So now you got the options of buying isk flat out at a premium, or buying a bot for cheaper, or playing for free and earning it the hard way. Everyones covered.

Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:26:00 - [191] Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:07:21 What if you could buy bots (or macros as you old timers like to call them) with plex? or money, whatever. Itd be the same thing as buying isk from ccp, it would be legit and you wouldnt get mad. ? I learned how to program all sorts of automated stuff including bots. My real job is to create automated picture and video analysis/manipulating tools. But I would NEVER EVER use my knowlage to cheat as I would lose all fun playing a game after I "won allready by cheating". I earn a lot of real money with this tools I create. So it would be no problem to sell 100 PLEX/month. But again I would NEVER EVER use my real money for it as I would lose all fun playing a game after I "won by real money allready". I pay (normaly monthly price) and play to have fun. Cheating, botting, exploiding DESTROY FUN!
Michwich	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:30:00 - [192] Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:30:22 Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:07:21 What if you could buy bots (or macros as you old timers like to call them) with plex? or money, whatever. Itd be the same thing as buying isk from ccp, it would be legit and you wouldnt get mad. ? A bot or macro makes ISK by abnormally and continuously doing things that make ISK in such a manner that a normal person could not do except for short stints aka marathon gaming sessions. Buying GTC converting them to PLEX and selling them doesn't make ISK at all, it simply transfers ISK created by a bot or a human to another account. So no they wouldn't be the same thing botting/macros create ISK and buying GTC selling PLEX transfers it. I really dont understandt your point... my point is that you can arleady buy isk legitimately , you just but plex with money and then sell it for isk ont he market, in effect CCP is selling isk, its no loop hole or accident. So why not sell bots as well, as a cheaper option? and why not move the game to F2P for the cheapest option, where you have to earn everything manually if you chose that route?
Captain Megadeath	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:31:00 - [193] Originally by: Michwich Everyones covered. Keep poasting. Go ahead. It shows how much you don't know about the Macro scourge. For starters, have you any idea the load strain that is and would be put on the servers during bot use? You sir are a fool and/or a macro user. /petitioned ingame for macro investigation Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails my name actually is short for catherine Yeah, Katie Door perhaps...... lol
Michwich	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:35:00 - [194] Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:38:30 Originally by: Jojo Jackson Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:07:21 What if you could buy bots (or macros as you old timers like to call them) with plex? or money, whatever. Itd be the same thing as buying isk from ccp, it would be legit and you wouldnt get mad. ? I learned how to program all sorts of automated stuff including bots. My real job is to create automated picture and video analysis/manipulating tools. But I would NEVER EVER use my knowlage to cheat as I would lose all fun playing a game after I "won allready by cheating". I earn a lot of real money with this tools I create. So it would be no problem to sell 100 PLEX/month. But again I would NEVER EVER use my real money for it as I would lose all fun playing a game after I "won by real money allready". I pay (normaly monthly price) and play to have fun. Cheating, botting, exploiding DESTROY FUN! Here here, but some dont see it that way. They get their fun by buying stuff, not earning it. So what if you could play for free... and earn it the hard way,(by free i mean no monthly cost, be it isk or money) would you accept people in the game "cheating" if they had to pay for it with real money? Youre playing for free so you shouldnt complain.. they're buying their isk so if anything they're comlpaining youre able to make good isk for free, no ones better than the other. Buying bots would be an intermediate step, for those who dont want to buy isk flat out, and at the same time dont want to earn it the hard way. I wouldnt even call it a bot, lets call it a wingman, hire a wingman to mine for you for $2 , or however many isk.
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:41:00 - [195] Originally by: Michwich ^^^ The difference being, the bot you buy from ccp will make 360million a month, instead of buying 360million isk from ccp you'll buy a bot which makes the same amount of isk but over a longer period of time. It will be cheaper. So now you have the option of buying isk whenver you want.. via plex for $15 or you can buy a bot for lets say $2 and it will give you the same amount of isk but at a slower rate. So now you got the options of buying isk flat out at a premium, or buying a bot for cheaper, or playing for free and earning it the hard way. Everyones covered. /me tosses poisoned troll food at Michwich. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Tornan Minmatar Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:43:00 - [196] Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:38:30 Originally by: Jojo Jackson Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:07:21 What if you could buy bots (or macros as you old timers like to call them) with plex? or money, whatever. Itd be the same thing as buying isk from ccp, it would be legit and you wouldnt get mad. ? I learned how to program all sorts of automated stuff including bots. My real job is to create automated picture and video analysis/manipulating tools. But I would NEVER EVER use my knowlage to cheat as I would lose all fun playing a game after I "won allready by cheating". I earn a lot of real money with this tools I create. So it would be no problem to sell 100 PLEX/month. But again I would NEVER EVER use my real money for it as I would lose all fun playing a game after I "won by real money allready". I pay (normaly monthly price) and play to have fun. Cheating, botting, exploiding DESTROY FUN! Here here, but some dont see it that way. They get their fun by buying stuff, not earning it. So what if you could play for free... and earn it the hard way,(by free i mean no monthly cost, be it isk or money) would you accept people in the game "cheating" if they had to pay for it with real money? Youre playing for free so you shouldnt complain.. they're buying their isk so if anything they're comlpaining youre able to make good isk for free, no ones better than the other. Buying bots would be an intermediate step, for those who dont want to buy isk flat out, and at the same time dont want to earn it the hard way. I wouldnt even call it a bot, lets call it a wingman, hire a wingman to mine for you for $2 , or however many isk. if there is a ny god ccp will ban this botter.
Michwich	Posted - 2010.12.09 14:54:00 - [197] Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:54:56 Originally by: Tornan Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:38:30 Originally by: Jojo Jackson Originally by: Michwich Edited by: Michwich on 09/12/2010 14:07:21 What if you could buy bots (or macros as you old timers like to call them) with plex? or money, whatever. Itd be the same thing as buying isk from ccp, it would be legit and you wouldnt get mad. ? I learned how to program all sorts of automated stuff including bots. My real job is to create automated picture and video analysis/manipulating tools. But I would NEVER EVER use my knowlage to cheat as I would lose all fun playing a game after I "won allready by cheating". I earn a lot of real money with this tools I create. So it would be no problem to sell 100 PLEX/month. But again I would NEVER EVER use my real money for it as I would lose all fun playing a game after I "won by real money allready". I pay (normaly monthly price) and play to have fun. Cheating, botting, exploiding DESTROY FUN! Here here, but some dont see it that way. They get their fun by buying stuff, not earning it. So what if you could play for free... and earn it the hard way,(by free i mean no monthly cost, be it isk or money) would you accept people in the game "cheating" if they had to pay for it with real money? Youre playing for free so you shouldnt complain.. they're buying their isk so if anything they're comlpaining youre able to make good isk for free, no ones better than the other. Buying bots would be an intermediate step, for those who dont want to buy isk flat out, and at the same time dont want to earn it the hard way. I wouldnt even call it a bot, lets call it a wingman, hire a wingman to mine for you for $2 , or however many isk. if there is a ny god ccp will ban this botter. Dont worry, once CCP starts getting into the bot selling business(just like isk selling) you can be sure those illegitimate botters will get banned.
frog0ut	Posted - 2010.12.09 15:22:00 - [198] I can't wait for CCP to announce they are banning botting, and then all the anti-plex for remap guys quit the game
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.12.09 15:25:00 - [199] Quote: Probing down mining sites in high-sec isn't difficult, isn't dangerous, doesn't require high in-game skills and can be very profitable - yet you see many people still mining belts. What should this tell us? Are miners just dumb, too lazy to use the scanner or does the lack of automation for scanning make these sites so underused? A miner typically won't have lots of scanning skills nor navigation skills. Miner is also a typically newbie profession, where the guy is surely more in need to grow other skills than probing. A typically low income profession like mining cannot cohexist with having to jump 10 or so systems to find the one with a grav site. The low navigation skills make ships require two jumps per system, moving hulks is a slow pain (and the others are way worse). All of this to find a sparse grav site with few and close-to-worthless amounts of quality minerals. The same site (seen this many times) after few minutes gets invaded by 10 other miners as well, all digging at those poor 3 hedbergite roids. Quote: my own agenda in this whole matter is that I think 0.01 ISK station trading is stupid but necessary It's not at all. In RL trading you get to pay from $5 upwards to $10 to trade in basic markets like futures and Forex. Actually sold futures strategies ("Seahawk") yield $25 profit for $5 per contract, and this assumes you trade at a profit. Imagine if you had to shell up to 20% in broker fees at each market transaction like in RL. This would put bots out of commission F A S T. Quote: the client needs some hardcore securing You can't. It's possible to inject everything you want after the game has un-encrypted itself in memory, checked all you want and then started. The CPU needs to execute coherent instructions, therefore there will always be something able to intercept that and modify on the fly and much, much more. Quote: I'm returning to the game after a long break and this boils up. Everyone knows botting occurs, but if it is so widespread that no 0.0 power block can maintain power without botting I am concerned. You are right to be concerned because it's the same as doping in sports. It becomes such a rotten system that those who don't dope cannot compete with the majority that does. Same in EvE, if an alliance can field endless supercarriers thanks to RMT it WILL win. Quote: Realistically though Eve is on the back-burner, as a company CCP really needs to get Dust and WoD out, so not expecting too much is a good bet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sometimes, it really feels like it is... It's not in the backburner but has peaked. Some great players, alliances and web sites have closed down for good (eve-metrics founder comments are really enlightening about this) because EvE is not the same EvE of once any more. Raw, unfinished but with so many possibilities, so much to grow, so much potential. Defining new MMO standards. Now it's just "a" MMO (even if the niche has no real competition), following others ideas (public quests, microtransactions, huge blobs > skill, just having many bigger ships > all, optimizing PvE grind) and it's filling up with "solo farmers" whose maximum horizon in life is to self grind a better self grind ship. Quote: has CCP even bothered to say this is a problem or is it true they just dont care about botters Most recent visible activity: lock threads even mentioning the issue. Putting heads under the sand is not just a politician tactic. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Suitellis You're Bad At This Game	Posted - 2010.12.09 16:20:00 - [200] There is an assembly hall thread up now requesting a Devblog or CCP response on botting. I suggest you support it and show the CSM (who has been strangely absent on the subject) how much we want some kind of correspondence.

Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.12.09 17:02:00 - [201] Down with the machines! Viva la resistance!
Vitamin B12	Posted - 2010.12.09 17:21:00 - [202] signed --- Corporations for Highsec pos anchoring. Only a fee of 75 Million ISK. click
Goparu Prdc3r Caldari Tormentum Insomniae IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.09 17:22:00 - [203] CCP stop bots now! market bots also please!!!!
malkisania Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.09 21:51:00 - [204] botting needs to end now, signed
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.12.09 22:05:00 - [205] Originally by: frog0ut I can't wait for CCP to announce they are banning botting, and then all the anti-plex for remap guys quit the game I know you're a troll, but WTF? --Vel I'm more of a care-badger.
Dyxan	Posted - 2010.12.10 00:25:00 - [206] just finished to see all 3 blogs on evenews24... really impressive...
Spineker Caldari Chain of Dogs	Posted - 2010.12.10 02:17:00 - [207] I don't generally jump on the CCP sucks bandwagon but what can you say this sucks. No wonder plex goes up 40 million a month.
NastyMan AnimalBeast	Posted - 2010.12.10 02:44:00 - [208] Welcome to the war between the people who make software and the people who misuse it. As long as ingenuity exists and people are trying to find a way to bot they will find it. Computers are getting very clever at behaving like and doing things that humans do. I have a friend who operates 8 Characters at a time in Eve without botting how do you propose to differentiate between him and the real botters? Whatever answer you provide there will be a way around that. I'm confident that they are doing what they can where they can but also doing it carefully enough to be sure they are not banning legitimate players.
Meridian Siri	Posted - 2010.12.10 03:55:00 - [209] Originally by: Captain Megadeath Originally by: Michwich Everyones covered. For starters, have you any idea the load strain that is and would be put on the servers during bot use? There's an idea. We can all just set a date, much like Hulkageddon, and: 1) each get mining bots set up on as many accounts as each player who give a **** can manage (include trial accounts, as many as you have PC's for) 2) converge on a single Region/constellation/system. 3) turn them loose and beat the hell out of the server; for days or weeks. Laughable thought, of course; but it would hilarious to see the population in eve hold constant for all hours at about two to three times the record for a week or two. If no action from the developers, make the problem obvious. It would also provide some nice entertainment for the suicide gankers
Verx Interis Amarr SkyNet.	Posted - 2010.12.10 04:47:00 - [210] Edited by: Verx Interis on 10/12/2010 04:49:42 Originally by: riverini Edited by: riverini on 06/12/2010 00:08:19 Good evening, NEW EDEN. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of every day routine- the security of the familiar, the tranquility of PVE repetition. I enjoy them as much as any carebear. But in the spirit of condenation, thereby those important revelations of today usually associated with someone's botting or the end of some awful bloody RMT struggle, a celebration of a nice holiday, I thought we could mark this December the 5th, a day that is sadly no longer remembered, by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat. There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into the batphones, and CTAÆs against me and forum moderators will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this GAME, isn't there? RMT and injustice BOTTING, tolerance and COMPLACENCE. And where once you had the freedom to make a profit, to play and enjoy as you saw fit, you now have ENDLESS HORDES OF BOTS and THEY ALLIANCE LEADERS AND REGULAR PLAYERS coercing EVEN INTO conformity and soliciting ITS submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? BANNINGS, RMT, AND CEOS. There were a myriad of RMTS which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your GAME. Loath got the best of you, and in your loath you turned to the now biggest patronisers of this treachery: THE CSM AND CCP. They promised you order, They promised you NO LAG, and all they demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent of the BOTTING and RMT operations. Last night we sought to end that silence. Last night we disclosed the the confession of a seasoned RMT player, to remind this GAME of what it has forgotten AND WHAT HAZ it complaced into. More than four years ago a great citizen wished to embed the fifth of December forever in our memory. His hope was to remind NEW EDEN that fairness, justice, and freedom of BOTTING are more than words, they are perspectives. So if you've seen nothing, if the SCANDAL of this RMTs remain unknown to you then I would suggest you allow the fifth of December to pass unmarked. But if you see what I see, if you feel as I feel, and if you would seek as I seek, then I ask you to stand beside me one THIS NEXT WEEK, outside THIS PORTAL INTO to all major MMORPG outlets, and together we shall give them a month of December that shall never, ever be forgot. German Giggles riverini Quick facts: 1bil RMT is bought on the black market @$20 - $30 USD, do your math. TL;DR: CCP IS BEING COMPLACENT ABOUT TE BOTTING BCZ THEY'LL LOSE A HUGE SHARE OF THE GTC MARKET IF THEY WERE TO BAN THEM, THIS HOWEVER IS KILLING THE GAME for honest ppl who play the game as they should. as proven before we can't expect CCP to move a finger until some duder from a major news outlet shows some of this, else they don't care about the honest gamers (ref. see lag +18 months) R What the **** did I just read? Edit: This has the propaganda-like aura of trying to make something appear like a huge giant epic threat while having no rationalization for such a thing. ---- Logins required for this post: 555117

Ash Donai	Posted - 2010.12.10 05:40:00 - [211] Originally by: riverini THIS HOWEVER IS KILLING THE GAME for honest ppl who play the game as they should Confirming that after 7 years in the running the game has been killed by RMTers!
captain foivos	Posted - 2010.12.10 06:56:00 - [212] PEW PEW PEW Originally by: CCP Zulu You're assuming I read threads before I turdpost in them :)
Musashi IV	Posted - 2010.12.10 11:20:00 - [213] CCP stop the use of macros!!
Trupo Baptista	Posted - 2010.12.10 12:13:00 - [214] Edited by: Trupo Baptista on 10/12/2010 12:13:19 Any reply to this anywhere? Or will it just be ignored.
Ganagati Caldari Zebra Corp	Posted - 2010.12.10 13:57:00 - [215] Edited by: Ganagati on 10/12/2010 13:57:53 This is what I love about MMO communities. People whine. They complain. They ***. They DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) action. Fair enough. What action? They've been doing their best effort to spot using limited resources the botters and it seems to no avail. So, is that it then? Do they throw in the towel. Well, that's up to you. You want to whine? Want to *? Ok: I have your answer then- the answer Blizzard came up with and the only answer an MMO can truly turn to when all else fails. Please go look up the Warden Client If you cannot catch botters when you have limited resources, expand your resources. And do you know how the players react when they get what they have been so begging for? They'll whine. They'll complain. They'll ***. They'll DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) that it is removed. And do you know what CCP will get for all their effort? 2,000+ subscriptions lost from the botters and the exact same number of angry players as before. Yep, I can see why they are chomping at the bit to fix this.
betty drunkenlord	Posted - 2010.12.10 14:15:00 - [216] Originally by: Ganagati Edited by: Ganagati on 10/12/2010 13:57:53 This is what I love about MMO communities. People whine. They complain. They ***. They DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) action. Fair enough. What action? They've been doing their best effort to spot using limited resources the botters and it seems to no avail. So, is that it then? Do they throw in the towel. Well, that's up to you. You want to whine? Want to *? Ok: I have your answer then- the answer Blizzard came up with and the only answer an MMO can truly turn to when all else fails. Please go look up the Warden Client If you cannot catch botters when you have limited resources, expand your resources. And do you know how the players react when they get what they have been so begging for? They'll whine. They'll complain. They'll ***. They'll DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) that it is removed. And do you know what CCP will get for all their effort? 2,000+ subscriptions lost from the botters and the exact same number of angry players as before. Yep, I can see why they are chomping at the bit to fix this. Yes, whining [constructively] is the reason of most of mankind development. It is also the reason of all great things that got developed in Eve. So in this aspect whining is good. Whining with the purpose to make game better, more enjoyable and fun. As for subscriptions no worries, since bots subscriptions will be replaced by players reactivating their abandoned alts and ex-players disgusted with bots returning to game there will be no substantial loss for CCP in the long run, inversely, CCP will make more dough with employing everything in its power to cut off botters.
TriadSte Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.10 14:29:00 - [217] My thing is this: Whats MORE illegal [ lol ] People using other peoples chars like alliances do [ alot ] or Macro users? I ask which is more illegal because, chars get banned pretty much all the time because of other people logging in with that char. But Macro users DO NOT CCP you are making yourself look uber noob for this? Go out of the box and look inside like we do and you'll see.
Ganagati Caldari Zebra Corp	Posted - 2010.12.10 14:30:00 - [218] Edited by: Ganagati on 10/12/2010 14:32:48 Originally by: betty drunkenlord Originally by: Ganagati Edited by: Ganagati on 10/12/2010 13:57:53 This is what I love about MMO communities. People whine. They complain. They ***. They DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) action. Fair enough. What action? They've been doing their best effort to spot using limited resources the botters and it seems to no avail. So, is that it then? Do they throw in the towel. Well, that's up to you. You want to whine? Want to *? Ok: I have your answer then- the answer Blizzard came up with and the only answer an MMO can truly turn to when all else fails. Please go look up the Warden Client If you cannot catch botters when you have limited resources, expand your resources. And do you know how the players react when they get what they have been so begging for? They'll whine. They'll complain. They'll *. They'll DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) that it is removed. And do you know what CCP will get for all their effort? 2,000+ subscriptions lost from the botters and the exact same number of angry players as before. Yep, I can see why they are chomping at the bit to fix this. Yes, whining [constructively] is the reason of most of mankind development. It is also the reason of all great things that got developed in Eve. So in this aspect whining is good. Whining with the purpose to make game better, more enjoyable and fun. As for subscriptions no worries, since bots subscriptions will be replaced by players reactivating their abandoned alts and ex-players disgusted with bots returning to game there will be no substantial loss for CCP in the long run, inversely, CCP will make more dough with employing everything in its power to cut off botters. Yes, but what will the cost to us be to remove those botters? The only surefire method to remove bots is yet more client spyware like Warden. CCP has been doing the best they can with limited resources. Obviously, most of you feel that isn't good enough. I'm asking: are you ok with what the next logical step would be? As in, expanding their resources. Originally by:** TriadSte I ask which is more illegal because, chars get banned pretty much all the time because of other people logging in with that char. But Macro users DO NOT CCP you are making yourself look uber noob for this? Go out of the box and look inside like we do and you'll see. This I can answer. As someone familiar with these sort of mechanics- atm it is far simpler for them to CATCH people sharing accounts than catching macroers. It isn't like they look at 2 accounts and say "hey, this guy is macroing and this guy is switching toons... lets ban the toon sharer." With macro mining, since they have no software options in place, they must rely purely on watching the character, player reports, and things like that. For someone sharing an account, it is pretty easy to notice that someone logs in regularly from Georgia USA and then suddenly appears in Illinois USA 3 hours later... only to reappear in Georgia USA within an hour of that. Shy of teleportation, it isn't possible. But setting up systems to alert them of this IS very simple.
Aelius Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2010.12.10 14:31:00 - [219] If i get elected to the CSM this matter will have my maximum priority. _________________________ CSM Candidate for 2011 (soon a pretty photoshop sig) Aelius 2011 Candidacy Guide Lines
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.10 14:32:00 - [220] Originally by: Ganagati Edited by: Ganagati on 10/12/2010 13:57:53 This is what I love about MMO communities. People whine. They complain. They ***. They DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) action. Fair enough. What action? They've been doing their best effort to spot using limited resources the botters and it seems to no avail. So, is that it then? Do they throw in the towel. Well, that's up to you. You want to whine? Want to *? Ok: I have your answer then- the answer Blizzard came up with and the only answer an MMO can truly turn to when all else fails. Please go look up the Warden Client If you cannot catch botters when you have limited resources, expand your resources. And do you know how the players react when they get what they have been so begging for? They'll whine. They'll complain. They'll *. They'll DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) that it is removed. And do you know what CCP will get for all their effort? 2,000+ subscriptions lost from the botters and the exact same number of angry players as before. Yep, I can see why they are chomping at the bit to fix this. Indeed, because obviously the only way to make sure their client isn't being modified is to violate the user's machine and scan out what is being run, and interfere with it, instead of say securing their client and making it aware of when IT has been compromised. The difference between putting cameras outside your house to watch if your neighbor steps on your lawn, while also seeing into their yard, and shooting their dog cause he could take a dump on your flowers OR putting up a fence along with cameras that only have a view of your property. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--**

Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.12.10 14:35:00 - [221] With unlimited ISK from botters the risk vs revard that EVE is famous for is going down the drain.
Ganagati Caldari Zebra Corp	Posted - 2010.12.10 14:35:00 - [222] Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: Ganagati Edited by: Ganagati on 10/12/2010 13:57:53 This is what I love about MMO communities. People whine. They complain. They ***. They DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) action. Fair enough. What action? They've been doing their best effort to spot using limited resources the botters and it seems to no avail. So, is that it then? Do they throw in the towel. Well, that's up to you. You want to whine? Want to *? Ok: I have your answer then- the answer Blizzard came up with and the only answer an MMO can truly turn to when all else fails. Please go look up the Warden Client If you cannot catch botters when you have limited resources, expand your resources. And do you know how the players react when they get what they have been so begging for? They'll whine. They'll complain. They'll ***. They'll DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) that it is removed. And do you know what CCP will get for all their effort? 2,000+ subscriptions lost from the botters and the exact same number of angry players as before. Yep, I can see why they are chomping at the bit to fix this. Indeed, because obviously the only way to make sure their client isn't being modified is to violate the user's machine and scan out what is being run, and interfere with it, instead of say securing their client and making it aware of when IT has been compromised. The difference between putting cameras outside your house to watch if your neighbor steps on your lawn, while also seeing into their yard, and shooting their dog cause he could take a dump on your flowers OR putting up a fence along with cameras that only have a view of your property. An example of how this could work? Besides the theoretical "They should figure out how to do it. I'm sure it's easy!". Bots use the same mechanics game clients do to send commands to them. When those commands appear at CCPs servers, it looks no different and is completely indistinguishable from a normal player sending information. At no point do botters crack into CCP's servers. So, I look forward to hearing how they could do this. You have no idea how many lives you would make easier in doing so... and that last line isn't sarcasm.
betty drunkenlord	Posted - 2010.12.10 14:42:00 - [223] I think CCP might be working on its version of warden atm. They might just announce it post factum after they clean up majority of bots doing unholy rage 2. I think it's important to fight botters on every field: 1) removing their technical capabilities (warden) 2) removing moral support for software they are selling (thus inducing players which couldn't distinguish clearly whether it's good or not to use the program) 3) removing income incentive for RMTers - creating plex was a very good step, I think there could be very interesting discussion how to remove it further. What I would like to see is to support no2) in other words a clear communication that it's illegal to use bots, that they cut player base growth prospects for ccp etc. so this could be copy pasted in other forums, heck even bot forums. In efffect they wouldn't get away with a statement that ccp really likes bots because they fuel the eve economy and all that crap...
Ganagati Caldari Zebra Corp	Posted - 2010.12.10 14:44:00 - [224] Originally by: betty drunkenlord I think CCP might be working on its version of warden atm. They might just announce it post factum after they clean up majority of bots doing unholy rage 2. I think it's important to fight botters on every field: 1) removing their technical capabilities (warden) 2) removing moral support for software they are selling (thus inducing players which couldn't distinguish clearly whether it's good or not to use the program) 3) removing income incentive for RMTers - creating plex was a very good step, I think there could be very interesting discussion how to remove it further. What I would like to see is to support no2) in other words a clear communication that it's illegal to use bots, that they cut player base growth prospects for ccp etc. so this could be copy pasted in other forums, heck even bot forums. In efffect they wouldn't get away with a statement that ccp really likes bots because they fuel the eve economy and all that crap... 1 I dread. 3 sounds fun but I'm biased as I'm a pretty big supporter of PLEX. 2 I don't really get, but it sounds better than 1 so I'm all for it. =D
Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.12.10 14:48:00 - [225] Originally by: Ganagati Edited by: Ganagati on 10/12/2010 13:57:53 This is what I love about MMO communities. People whine. They complain. They ***. They DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) action. Fair enough. What action? They've been doing their best effort to spot using limited resources the botters and it seems to no avail. So, is that it then? Do they throw in the towel. Well, that's up to you. You want to whine? Want to *? Ok: I have your answer then- the answer Blizzard came up with and the only answer an MMO can truly turn to when all else fails. Please go look up the Warden Client If you cannot catch botters when you have limited resources, expand your resources. And do you know how the players react when they get what they have been so begging for? They'll whine. They'll complain. They'll *. They'll DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) that it is removed. And do you know what CCP will get for all their effort? 2,000+ subscriptions lost from the botters and the exact same number of angry players as before. Yep, I can see why they are chomping at the bit to fix this. Really ? They can't spot the botters ? Limited resources ? What a load of utter crap - never read such a load of utter complete crap in my life. Exploit the mechanic of bots being linear in how they work -> store the results -> query and delete accounts. Trace the ISK transfers of the accounts -> store the results -> delete the accounts. Any programmer could do this kind of task in a few days including implementation. The database update would take a few minutes at most. I agree with you in part CCP DONT WANT TO FIX THE PROBLEM. Why ? Simple all of Null Sec would be exposed as a complete sack of st,,, the only reason they allow it to continue is the press generated from the ever increased size of battles being funded by botters and the bad publicity if the whole pack of cards crumbled and turned into what was humanly possible. Revenue streams would be way, way higher if it was known that new players could actually make their way in the game as there would actually be a point in playing the game. What REALLY, REALLY annoys me is that over the years more and more features have put into the baby of null sec, vast amounts of developers time and at the same time high sec has been nerfed year after year. The net result ? Resources are hogged in nullsec forcing those in highsec to play more or PAY MORE REAL LIFE CASH. And what's worse ? PvP corps and griefers paid for by botting accounts ! Not only is the high sec income reduced by botters the ISK is being used to destroy game play of the very people who pay for their services. CCP you suck. And what do we get ? New Christmas present of learning skills being removed - on face value a good thing,, great 8) Hold on,, wont that mean you can now create a new botter account that much quicker ? Won't it also mean any passive earning accounts like PI can also be raised quicker. Just another in a long line of dumbing down excercises dressed up as improvements but actually destroying peoples ISK earning potential specifcally targetted at those who actually pay for their accounts. Cheers CCP thanks for making matters worse over the years.
knobber Jobbler Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.12.10 15:05:00 - [226] Has CCP made a statement about this yet? Looks like CCP is inviting people to break the EULA. Really disappointed with CCP over this. The other stuff with lag and bad priorities I can sit by and watch but this is ****ing daft.
betty drunkenlord	Posted - 2010.12.10 15:05:00 - [227] Originally by: Jaqel Broadside Originally by: Ganagati Edited by: Ganagati on 10/12/2010 13:57:53 This is what I love about MMO communities. People whine. They complain. They ***. They DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) action. Fair enough. What action? They've been doing their best effort to spot using limited resources the botters and it seems to no avail. So, is that it then? Do they throw in the towel. Well, that's up to you. You want to whine? Want to *? Ok: I have your answer then- the answer Blizzard came up with and the only answer an MMO can truly turn to when all else fails. Please go look up the Warden Client If you cannot catch botters when you have limited resources, expand your resources. And do you know how the players react when they get what they have been so begging for? They'll whine. They'll complain. They'll *. They'll DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) that it is removed. And do you know what CCP will get for all their effort? 2,000+ subscriptions lost from the botters and the exact same number of angry players as before. Yep, I can see why they are chomping at the bit to fix this. Really ? They can't spot the botters ? Limited resources ? What a load of utter crap - never read such a load of utter complete crap in my life. Exploit the mechanic of bots being linear in how they work -> store the results -> query and delete accounts. Trace the ISK transfers of the accounts -> store the results -> delete the accounts. Any programmer could do this kind of task in a few days including implementation. The database update would take a few minutes at most. I agree with you in part CCP DONT WANT TO FIX THE PROBLEM. Why ? Simple all of Null Sec would be exposed as a complete sack of st,,, the only reason they allow it to continue is the press generated from the ever increased size of battles being funded by botters and the bad publicity if the whole pack of cards crumbled and turned into what was humanly possible. Revenue streams would be way, way higher if it was known that new players could actually make their way in the game as there would actually be a point in playing the game. What REALLY, REALLY annoys me is that over the years more and more features have put into the baby of null sec, vast amounts of developers time and at the same time high sec has been nerfed year after year. The net result ? Resources are hogged in nullsec forcing those in highsec to play more or PAY MORE REAL LIFE CASH. And what's worse ? PvP corps and griefers paid for by botting accounts ! Not only is the high sec income reduced by botters the ISK is being used to destroy game play of the very people who pay for their services. CCP you suck. And what do we get ? New Christmas present of learning skills being removed - on face value a good thing,, great 8) Hold on,, wont that mean you can now create a new botter account that much quicker ? Won't it also mean any passive earning accounts like PI can also be raised quicker. Just another in a long line of dumbing down excercises dressed up as improvements but actually destroying peoples ISK earning potential specifcally targetted at those who actually pay for their accounts. Cheers CCP thanks for making matters worse over the years. Actually removing learning skills along with 1.6mil 100% learning bonus will increase time to make new botters (vide comparison of times needed to train for a drake widely used with hbot). what I would like to know is whether highsec lvl5s were abused by bots (presumably no because scripting lvl4s would give more isk per account in the same time).
ILikeMarkets	Posted - 2010.12.10 15:21:00 - [228] Edited by: ILikeMarkets on 10/12/2010 15:21:21 Originally by: Jaqel Broadside Originally by: Ganagati Edited by: Ganagati on 10/12/2010 13:57:53 This is what I love about MMO communities. People whine. They complain. They ***. They DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) action. Fair enough. What action? They've been doing their best effort to spot using limited resources the botters and it seems to no avail. So, is that it then? Do they throw in the towel. Well, that's up to you. You want to whine? Want to *? Ok: I have your answer then- the answer Blizzard came up with and the only answer an MMO can truly turn to when all else fails. Please go look up the Warden Client If you cannot catch botters when you have limited resources, expand your resources. And do you know how the players react when they get what they have been so begging for? They'll whine. They'll complain. They'll *. They'll DEMAND (they are OWED/ENTITLED) that it is removed. And do you know what CCP will get for all their effort? 2,000+ subscriptions lost from the botters and the exact same number of angry players as before. Yep, I can see why they are chomping at the bit to fix this. Really ? They can't spot the botters ? Limited resources ? What a load of utter crap - never read such a load of utter complete crap in my life. Exploit the mechanic of bots being linear in how they work -> store the results -> query and delete accounts. Trace the ISK transfers of the accounts -> store the results -> delete the accounts. Any programmer could do this kind of task in a few days including implementation. The database update would take a few minutes at most. I agree with you in part CCP DONT WANT TO FIX THE PROBLEM. Why ? Simple all of Null Sec would be exposed as a complete sack of st,,, the only reason they allow it to continue is the press generated from the ever increased size of battles being funded by botters and the bad publicity if the whole pack of cards crumbled and turned into what was humanly possible. Revenue streams would be way, way higher if it was known that new players could actually make their way in the game as there would actually be a point in playing the game. What REALLY, REALLY annoys me is that over the years more and more features have put into the baby of null sec, vast amounts of developers time and at the same time high sec has been nerfed year after year. The net result ? Resources are hogged in nullsec forcing those in highsec to play more or PAY MORE REAL LIFE CASH. And what's worse ? PvP corps and griefers paid for by botting accounts ! Not only is the high sec income reduced by botters the ISK is being used to destroy game play of the very people who pay for their services. CCP you suck. And what do we get ? New Christmas present of learning skills being removed - on face value a good thing,, great 8) Hold on,, wont that mean you can now create a new botter account that much quicker ? Won't it also mean any passive earning accounts like PI can also be raised quicker. Just another in a long line of dumbing down excercises dressed up as improvements but actually destroying peoples ISK earning potential specifcally targetted at those who actually pay for their accounts. Cheers CCP thanks for making matters worse over the years. ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAOxY_nHdew
Bractorlion	Posted - 2010.12.10 15:30:00 - [229] I understand this is a problem, but I can't respect any post with caps, "haz" and grammar errors.
Per Bastet Amarr B.O.O.M Obsidian Mining Coalition	Posted - 2010.12.10 15:31:00 - [230] I have one Simple question - Why has CCP not even Posted a Yes we have Read this Thread Post? Or even a Post Stating that they are Now Aware how the Bots are Working and Will take Steps to prevent it? WHY HAS THERE BEEN NO RESPONSE FROM CCP ON THIS THREAD? -- Bastet's Organization Of Mining

Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.10 16:17:00 - [231] Do what they do on travian, when a person is suspected of botting they alone receive a captcha or whatever those things are called. It is bloody effective how it works, no one gets banned but obvious automated stuff gets a captcha, if botters wish to be singled out then so be it. People created new bots and ** but it has really turned into a nice system how they get the info on how the bot works put it in their anti bot system, so botters are always constantly having to update their program making it very difficult or inefficient to bot. WOW has a [Teleport Botter] system to tackle botters, where known botters are typically teleported, there is a lot of ways to counter botters without damaging income or affect other players. You should also hear some of the whines the bots use on travian, they will get a captcha and complain about it 12 hours later, "Hi the reason I am complaining now is because when the captcha happened I decided to log off without bothering to fill it in" "I am not a bot, the only reason I didnt bother filling in the captcha was because my computer crashed" They measure the time it takes to respond to the captcha too and from their reports not a single bot has effectively replied, unfortunately their anti botting system requires you to be playing for 3 hours before it can recognise if you are a bot or not, but 3 hours is fine for eve imo. Browser game has a better anti-botter program than eve Originally by:** Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.10 16:21:00 - [232] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 10/12/2010 16:23:53 Originally by: Per Bastet I have one Simple question - Why has CCP not even Posted a Yes we have Read this Thread Post? Or even a Post Stating that they are Now Aware how the Bots are Working and Will take Steps to prevent it? Because they have been aware of how bots work all the time and nothing has really changed during the last few months? Because as of now this issue has not yet reached threadnaught status despite a massive "public awareness" campaign by Horus/Czech Lion (I think Akita's "Let's get rid of Dr. EyjoG" thread had more posts/support than this "Get rid of bots/RMT" campaign). Because it's really hard to decide what steps CCP could take that wouldn't have the potential to backfire massively (Warden/Punkbuster like tools are "spyware", legit miners might get angry if they can't mine semi-afk anymore, removal of bots might have very undesirable effects on the in-game economy, maybe we're already at the point at which the numbers of bots is so high that CCP cannot really afford to lose that customer segment, ... and a thousand other plausible reasons). To play WoW (or most other games) you have to be on keyboard all the time - when I doing mining or mission running in EVE, I am usually tabbed out (or do other stuff like laundry, dishes, ...) 80% of the time. Requiring captchas, mini-games, ... would make EVE require a lot more attention and by far not all players would like that.
Vitamin B12	Posted - 2010.12.10 16:52:00 - [233] Originally by: Aelius If i get elected to the CSM this matter will have my maximum priority. thats the sad part of this. maybe ccp should focus on the 0.0 ratting mechanic. it looks like most of the bots do this... [joke] only a maximum of 10% play in 0.0 . remove it and the bots are away :) 90% of playerbase is happy. [/joke] --- Corporations for Highsec pos anchoring. Only a fee of 75 Million ISK. click
Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.12.10 17:04:00 - [234] Originally by: Cyaxares II To play WoW (or most other games) you have to be on keyboard all the time - when I doing mining or mission running in EVE, I am usually tabbed out (or do other stuff like laundry, dishes, ...) 80% of the time. Requiring captchas, mini-games, ... would make EVE require a lot more attention and by far not all players would like that. Laundry does not take 80% of your time. Most players who pay for their subscriptions will not accept botters of ANY description, WHATEVER the excuse. If some players are upset at having to "interact" with the game then it's best they don't play a game that requires interaction. Perhaps watching paint dry is more your forte ?
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.10 17:23:00 - [235] Originally by: Cyaxares II words Did you miss the part where I said this only affects bot like behaviour, if you are tabbed out this WONT affect you? How the hell do you manage todo a combat mission and do laundry & dishes anyway, besides I said this should affect ratting / mining bots So if you are copying identical stuff as a bot, then you deserve to get a captcha, if you are doing the dishes a captcha wont appear because well you will be in game doing nothing, if you are doing the dishes and somehow magically mine at the same time I think you would deserve a captcha. As far as I have seen, the anti-botting protocols used have been really effective Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2010.12.10 18:25:00 - [236] WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. Wrangler Senior Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us If it's stupid but works, it isn't stupid.

Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.12.10 18:30:00 - [237] I suggest you kill them with fire. fire works good
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.10 18:38:00 - [238] Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. As it has been stated over and over the issue ISNT just RMT, it is botting used for personal gain, unholy rage targetted RMT ONLY. CCP need to focus on botting in general careless of RMT, this includes macro ratting, macro mining and macro hauling, going after RMT ONLY just confirms the rumours that CCP dont care about botters unless they RMT. Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2010.12.10 18:40:00 - [239] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 10/12/2010 18:40:43 Originally by: Kalle Demos How the hell do you manage todo a combat mission and do laundry & dishes anyway, besides I said this should affect ratting / mining bots activate perma-tank, pull aggro, deploy drones edit. wrong character, Cyaxares is my alt
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.10 18:52:00 - [240] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 10/12/2010 18:40:43 Originally by: Kalle Demos How the hell do you manage todo a combat mission and do laundry & dishes anyway, besides I said this should affect ratting / mining bots activate perma-tank, pull aggro, deploy drones edit. wrong character, Cyaxares is my alt Ok well eitherway anti-botting wont affect you, because A no macro would be even remotely efficient doing that (because of triggers and just a bad way of doing missions) and B because you arent clicking anything :P When you are mining, despite being able todo it with little attention you still have to click one every few mins, your style of mission running doesnt. Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw

ILikeMarkets	Posted - 2010.12.10 19:16:00 - [241] lmao wow. Captcha has to be the dumbest EVE idea I've ever heard of. I can see it now- miner is going. Suddenly a ganker warps into the belt. Time to leav... LOLCAPTCHA!!! Worst timing ever. Please fill me out before you can warp to safety. Bye bye hulk. :)
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.10 19:20:00 - [242] Edited by: Kalle Demos on 10/12/2010 19:23:39 Originally by: Florestan Bronstein edit2: how exactly do you imagine this bot detection would work? not exactly hard for the bot author to introduce substantial randomization of bot behavior. I dont think you get this still, if this was an idea I created, I probably would agree with you but theres already a nice and effective way in dealing with bots and techniques that I have mentioned are being used and have been effective for many years, other games do this, who openly announce they check bots to understand their enemy. If a bot gets changed your anti-botting WONT be picking up on bots, the following is most likely the reason A- The bot has been changed like glider for the 5000th time or a very unlikely scenario B- no one is botting EVE isnt the only game out there but by the looks of it is the only one that doesnt do anything against non-RMT botters, sounds to me your concerns are more todo with your afk income than anything else. Originally by: ILikeMarkets lmao wow. Captcha has to be the dumbest EVE idea I've ever heard of. I can see it now- miner is going. Suddenly a ganker warps into the belt. Time to leav... LOLCAPTCHA!!! Worst timing ever. Please fill me out before you can warp to safety. Bye bye hulk. :) Like I said it would ONLY apply to botters, so if botters are the only one affected who would really care, besides who really warps out when they see another player in their belt, by the time you have aligned you are dead anyway. Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Memorya	Posted - 2010.12.10 19:51:00 - [243] Any reporters from masively here, this coud be your good news ? Ban the botter's. ------------------------ English is my 5th. Language.
ILikeMarkets	Posted - 2010.12.10 19:55:00 - [244] Originally by: Kalle Demos Like I said it would ONLY apply to botters, so if botters are the only one affected who would really care, besides who really warps out when they see another player in their belt, by the time you have aligned you are dead anyway. So wait... your entire plan henges on them already knowing who the botters are? Except... if they already know who the botters are, why not just ban them? Isn't the point of the captchas to catch the botters? Go look up recursion on google.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.10 19:57:00 - [245] Edited by: Kalle Demos on 10/12/2010 19:58:42 Originally by: ILikeMarkets Originally by: Kalle Demos Like I said it would ONLY apply to botters, so if botters are the only one affected who would really care, besides who really warps out when they see another player in their belt, by the time you have aligned you are dead anyway. So wait... your entire plan henges on them already knowing who the botters are? Except... if they already know who the botters are, why not just ban them? Isn't the point of the captchas to catch the botters? Go look up recursion on google. Im bored, please troll tomorrow when I care Also read what I have written :P Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Maier Lehman	Posted - 2010.12.10 20:05:00 - [246] majesta "bot" empire clean your own ranks of ebay selling "pro gamers" first upon crying around like a baby. and if you are onto it continue within the ranks of your masters^^ hahahahaha
Dmoney3788 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.10 20:07:00 - [247] Considering that mining is one of the most boring ways to spend actually playing a game...
Lady Aja Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.10 20:07:00 - [248] Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. ok we all know ccp implimented no trial accounts can be working with a full account a long time ago. how about? you guy when someone is playing eve and a bot program is resident in memory , i automatically resets the client OR it send you mail and youknow what account to insta ban.
Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.10 20:42:00 - [249] Originally by: Ganagati An example of how this could work? Besides the theoretical "They should figure out how to do it. I'm sure it's easy!". Bots use the same mechanics game clients do to send commands to them. When those commands appear at CCPs servers, it looks no different and is completely indistinguishable from a normal player sending information. At no point do botters crack into CCP's servers. So, I look forward to hearing how they could do this. You have no idea how many lives you would make easier in doing so... and that last line isn't sarcasm. Well if we're talking about replacing/compromising the client then the fix for that is pretty trivial. Client sends an encrypted token to server after the handshake which is unique every time - just grab a timestamp from the server/client and use that as part of the seed for the token, along with the hash outputs for the critical files in the client. Longer load/login time but something has to give. No valid token = no login regardless of username/password presented. As far as client comms go, well we're talking about data injection so there are options available there - both client and server-side but only CCP can comment on those as they're not "free" in terms of cpu usage. This is just after like a few minutes thought so I'm sure its easily subverted. Its not beyond the wit of man to sort this out though. Really.
xo3e The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.12.10 21:03:00 - [250] 1) delayed local 2) npc gives aggro timer same as players (if someone will log off while being aggroed by npcs - his ship will warp out to spot and will be there for 15 minutes) 3) standard cloaking device (not cov-ops cloak) must consume capacitor, so BS full of cap-mods will be out of cap in 15 or so minutes and then decloak = no bots (and atomic rage of 00 carebears as bonus) maim, kill, burn!

Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.10 21:22:00 - [251] Originally by: xo3e 1) delayed local 2) npc gives aggro timer same as players (if someone will log off while being aggroed by npcs - his ship will warp out to spot and will be there for 15 minutes) 3) standard cloaking device (not cov-ops cloak) must consume capacitor, so BS full of cap-mods will be out of cap in 15 or so minutes and then decloak = no bots (and atomic rage of 00 carebears as bonus) <3 it, especially 3, means probers will be used more Shame no one from Hydra applied to be a CSM /brown nose off :D Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2010.12.10 21:40:00 - [252] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 10/12/2010 21:42:59 Originally by: Kalle Demos Edited by: Kalle Demos on 10/12/2010 19:23:39 Originally by: Florestan Bronstein edit2: how exactly do you imagine this bot detection would work? not exactly hard for the bot author to introduce substantial randomization of bot behavior. I dont think you get this still, if this was an idea I created, I probably would agree with you but theres already a nice and effective way in dealing with bots and techniques that I have mentioned are being used and have been effective for many years, other games do this, who openly announce they check bots to understand their enemy. My rule on all programming/CS-related claims is - either I understand how the described service/mechanic/feature/... can work in principle or I believe the claim to be fake until I have been convinced. You wrote that the captcha is only displayed when a suspicion has already been established. The question is - where does this suspicion come from? A good bot should be indistinguishable from a real player after all. One solution is to install spyware on your customers' computers and monitor what programs they run besides your own (you have to add rootkit-like features, too, to make sure that spyware is not easily bypassed). That's extremely ugly, doesn't work when the bot is changed and because said spyware runs on the customers' PC he can analyze and bypass it without too much troubles. Otherwise how do you detect a bot? do you suspect every player who earns a certain amount of ISK per week from mining to be a bot and give him some sort of Turing test? do you suspect every character who is actively logged in for more than <x> hours? or do you go after actual behavior (as you seemed to suggest)? because in that case you get into problems. you say "but a bot is predictable, he always does the same things" - well, instead of waiting 2 seconds before going to the next step the bot good as well wait for a random amount of seconds drawn from some distribution with mean 2. The bot can warp to random belts, change the order of some actions (why always activate the first and then the second mining laser?), take random breaks to check out 4chan with the IGB, ... all without much effort to the bot writer. If the bot writer wants to be serious about this he could even create a database of recorded actions by real players and select from these (or do variations on these). So unless you go for the crude "everybody who is playing for more than <x> hours per day" metric (which basically only says "hey, extreme botting is not good for you") how do you establish that initial suspicion? Every game company will tell you that they can detect bots somewhat reliably because the first step to prevent botting in your game is to scare people away from using bots (read Akita's posts on that matter). But unless you provide more specific information I have no reason to believe that the bot detection system you describe (before the actual captcha is presented) is really that good. Originally by: Kalle Demos EVE isnt the only game out there but by the looks of it is the only one that doesnt do anything against non-RMT botters, sounds to me your concerns are more todo with your afk income than anything else. no I don't play actively atm - I am just concerned because lots of know-it-alls are rallying up on this matter without giving much thought to the possible consequences of their demands ...
Vestrara Khai	Posted - 2010.12.10 22:08:00 - [253] A squeaky wheel gets oiled first. So make this thread squeak.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.10 22:53:00 - [254] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein snip I would prefer a change to the mechanics on how mining and ratting and various other boring tasks work, but CCP are hardly known for being quick on changes. So im thinking change it to 'xo3e' idea but for goodness dont do another unholy rage that ONLY targets RMT, ALL botters need to be focused on. As to your "games try to scare" while this may be true, in other games I have actually seen bans given for botting careless of RMT, they are usually temp bans followed by permo bans but there is a focus of getting rid of bots. I will wait to hear what CCP say next week, there is no point in raging atm. Oh and "CCP cant deal with botters because it requires too much time" is a poor excuse much like the "CCP cant put new stuff in game to counter bots, it puts too much strain on the server" when every expansion HAS contained a ** load of new stuff. I hate getting involved in heated like this but right now I am thinking "what is the point of ANYONE PvE'ing when they can just get a bot go afk, put zero effort in the game and get everything". If people want no risk PvP they should go play on sisi :P Originally by:** Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Dmoney3788 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.10 23:00:00 - [255] Why doesn't CCP do something like punkbuster?
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.10 23:13:00 - [256] Originally by: Dmoney3788 Why doesn't CCP do something like punkbuster? Because everyone is a secret agent in real life with so much valuable information on their computer that they dont get how warden / punkbuster works and worried Wikileaks will get hold of the information and destroy the world. Saying that what does CCP have access to now, when I log onto eve what can they see, I am currently a week into a petition todo with a 'skill bug' and after 7 replies finally asked "you know you guys have access to my account it would be much easier to just look yourselves rather than have me explain". So what exactly can CCP see now? IP only Warden CCP can sue botting companies after and make money Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
HyperZerg	Posted - 2010.12.10 23:26:00 - [257] Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. We care about Macros and Bots, not RMT ... I starting to belive you don't want to get this one ... RMT destroys CCP Bots/Macros destroy the game. Let's fix both !
Open Orifice	Posted - 2010.12.10 23:29:00 - [258] This is the first MMO I have ever played in 22 years of gaming. After understanding the immense issue of this I will never start another one again. I stay here though because I'm hooked and don't want to leave.
Kraundewr	Posted - 2010.12.10 23:51:00 - [259] For God's sake people, wake up. Game companies are about money. Accounts = cash flow into CCPs pocket. If you seriously think CCP will "ban" botters and macro miners then you need to HTFU. Perhaps you should recommend that for every botting/macro account you will personally pay the GTC cost per lost account. CCP might listen then.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.10 23:55:00 - [260] Originally by: Kraundewr For God's sake people, wake up. Game companies are about money. Accounts = cash flow into CCPs pocket. If you seriously think CCP will "ban" botters and macro miners then you need to HTFU. Perhaps you should recommend that for every botting/macro account you will personally pay the GTC cost per lost account. CCP might listen then. Then they should remove all the rules, as long as they are making money that is all that matters right? Freedom for exploiters Freedom for hackers Freedom for cheaters Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw

Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2010.12.11 00:04:00 - [261] Originally by: Kraundewr For God's sake people, wake up. Game companies are about money. Accounts = cash flow into CCPs pocket. If you seriously think CCP will "ban" botters and macro miners then you need to HTFU. Perhaps you should recommend that for every botting/macro account you will personally pay the GTC cost per lost account. CCP might listen then. Botter destroy markets, as soon as markets destroyed normal player will leave, when normal player left botter will leave. If a company just wants fast money (EA for example) they do nothing against botters as they got their money by selling CDs. If a company wants a long tearm moneymaker (Blizzard/CCP) they fight the booters to secure their income. But we should not only talk about mining/ratting/missioning bots. What about all the Jita-trade-bots?? Jita-trade-bots are far easier to create as you have no random factor like "where will the enemy move". And there are planty of them! I do any bet 50 to 75% of this 0.01 cent "traders" are bots. - place offers - refresh market view - alter your offers SUPER easy made, sero risk. Do you include them into your fight @CCP?
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.12.11 00:06:00 - [262] Raging against the machine!
Fanndis	Posted - 2010.12.11 01:45:00 - [263] over 6 months ago i reported 3 characters that are in hulks mining 23/7 and all left their respective corps on the same exact year/month/day/second ( 2009.08.21 17:58 ) so its clear that these 3 characters belong to same person but all 3 are still mining in same system right this second so i haven't bothered wasting my time reporting other macro's iv seen since
Rat Mcgee	Posted - 2010.12.11 06:23:00 - [264] CCP stop macro users!!
tube chiId	Posted - 2010.12.11 10:07:00 - [265] CCP stop macro users!!
ghost st	Posted - 2010.12.11 10:10:00 - [266] Well CCP could easily do more against RMT and botting. The easiest way (with a more long term effect) would be to re-introduce 30-day timecodes. And be more aggressive advertising and educating players about the plex system. The first thing for CCP to do would be to have some kind of page or site be in the top results if someone searches for 'buy isk' or 'eve isk', stuff like that. Reintroducing 30day gtc would give players a lower minimum cost to get a plex. The current system of having a minimum 60day gtc, sets a rather high minimum cost for players to buy plex for isk. (re)adding the 30day option would lower the minimum cost, which may be more attractive to some players.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.11 12:27:00 - [267] Originally by: Kalle Demos Will CCP be addressing RMT only or will they actually do something about botting unrelated to RMT Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2010.12.11 12:29:00 - [268] Do you really want to 1/4 population ( yes that icludes big alliances macro fleets ) of the servers to dissapear . How will taht look for CCP.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.11 12:37:00 - [269] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Do you really want to 1/4 population ( yes that icludes big alliances macro fleets ) of the servers to dissapear . How will taht look for CCP. Theres more than one way to fix any problem, banning isnt the only solution, right now though I would like to know what they are addressing. Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Forum Guy	Posted - 2010.12.11 13:11:00 - [270] Originally by: Kalle Demos Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Do you really want to 1/4 population ( yes that icludes big alliances macro fleets ) of the servers to dissapear . How will taht look for CCP. Theres more than one way to fix any problem, banning isnt the only solution, right now though I would like to know what they are addressing. Problem is, if they tell Eve players what they're doing, at the same time they will be informing the botters what they're doing. Which will give the botters time to do something about it. If they do give any feed-back on the botter problem, then it's best to get it after they've acted.

mechtech Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.11 13:12:00 - [271] The "report isk spammer" button was a step in a good direction. Harness the rage, use our hate against RMT
Per Bastet Amarr B.O.O.M Obsidian Mining Coalition	Posted - 2010.12.11 13:36:00 - [272] Why not Implement a Name and Shame for Botters that are Caught? Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them. We have the Capability to Self Police to a Good extent - But we need to know who to nail to the wall. -- Bastet's Organization Of Mining
Vitamin B12	Posted - 2010.12.11 13:42:00 - [273] CCP stop macro users!! --- Corporations for Highsec pos anchoring. Only a fee of 75 Million ISK. click
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2010.12.11 14:07:00 - [274] Not enough Macro threads, but yeah CCP needs to create a full time task force to deal with bots and macros
Tom Fulleride	Posted - 2010.12.11 14:40:00 - [275] Can the OP or a mod please change the title from "FEED" to "FED". thank you.
Corcyrus Endymion Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming	Posted - 2010.12.11 15:25:00 - [276] Originally by: Per Bastet Why not Implement a Name and Shame for Botters that are Caught? Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them. We have the Capability to Self Police to a Good extent - But we need to know who to nail to the wall. Great that you have the ability to self police all of EvE: Most botters can be found in the following sovereignity holding alliances: Please gank them on a consistent enough basis: - IT alliance - Goonswarm Alliance - Triple A There you go.
Zagdul Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.12.11 15:28:00 - [277] instead of CCP investing tons of resources and time. They should just license VAC. EVE is already distributed on Steam. Maximum signature size is 24,000 bytes. Spitfire
Meridian Siri	Posted - 2010.12.11 16:03:00 - [278] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Do you really want to 1/4 population ( yes that icludes big alliances macro fleets ) of the servers to dissapear . How will taht look for CCP. Actually, yes. If that 1/4 of the population that you are talking about is macros. How it will look for CCP depends on how they handle the issue. They did a good enough PR job with Unholy Rage that some think it was simply PR; sell this one the same way.
Pesadel0 the muppets Talos Coalition	Posted - 2010.12.11 17:06:00 - [279] Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. Well i'am happy and waiting for the news :)
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.11 17:39:00 - [280] Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion Originally by: Per Bastet Why not Implement a Name and Shame for Botters that are Caught? Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them. We have the Capability to Self Police to a Good extent - But we need to know who to nail to the wall. Great that you have the ability to self police all of EvE: Most botters can be found in the following sovereignity holding alliances: Please gank them on a consistent enough basis: - IT alliance - Goonswarm Alliance - Triple A There you go. ALL OF 0.0!! Not just them, even the ones without space too Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw

Kyzzie	Posted - 2010.12.11 19:34:00 - [281] Interesting Originally by: Per Bastet ...Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them.... Where do we find these Botters, Jita? High Sec, Null Sec, where. Its EvE, Get Over It.
Dmoney3788 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.11 21:14:00 - [282] Originally by: Kyzzie Interesting Originally by: Per Bastet ...Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them.... Where do we find these Botters, Jita? High Sec, Null Sec, where. Macro miners are almost exclusively in hisec. Macro ratters are generally in nullsec, although I've seen some in quiet lowsec systems.
Professor Screweyes I.M.M Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.12.11 22:26:00 - [283] Quote: WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. LAWL... Fail. RMT fails to cut CCP in for a piece of the action so that's what you'll look at. I noticed that you excluded bot/botting from your statement. Tell us about the Bots. If you choose to do nothing, then bots must be good. Please link a good bot site for the other 3/4 of eve so we can all stop buying GTC's with real money.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.11 22:30:00 - [284] Originally by: Professor Screweyes Please link a good bot site for the other 3/4 of eve so we can all stop buying GTC's with real money. fail reasoning is fail. (hint: "equilibrium" is the word you should meditate on)
Dmoney3788 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.11 22:48:00 - [285] Originally by: Professor Screweyes Quote: WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. LAWL... Fail. RMT fails to cut CCP in for a piece of the action so that's what you'll look at. I noticed that you excluded bot/botting from your statement. Tell us about the Bots. If you choose to do nothing, then bots must be good. Please link a good bot site for the other 3/4 of eve so we can all stop buying GTC's with real money. You are aware that all GTC's come from someone who buys it with real money. Right? RIIGGGHT????
Professor Screweyes I.M.M Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.12.11 22:49:00 - [286] Quote: fail reasoning is fail. (hint: "equilibrium" is the word you should meditate on) I'll meditate on "equilibrium." You can meditate on "sarcasm"
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.11 23:31:00 - [287] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 11/12/2010 23:34:39 Originally by: Professor Screweyes Quote: fail reasoning is fail. (hint: "equilibrium" is the word you should meditate on) I'll meditate on "equilibrium." You can meditate on "sarcasm" If everybody would run bots and was firmly commited to buying PLEX/GTCs with ISK only you would run into the problem that nobody would have any reasons/inclination to sell GTCs/PLEX for ISK. That state would never exist because soon enough somebody would figure out that selling one GTC for over 9000 trillion ISK might be a good idea and your market would slowly revert back to normal. I guess asking CCP to help you (even more) with botting was intended to be sarcastic - however, the "all" in "so we can all stop buying GTC's with real money" being blatantly, horrendously wrong (for the reasons mentioned above) is not changed by the context.
Arx Eladios SPORADIC MOVEMENT The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.12.12 01:07:00 - [288] The usage of macros is so widespread that it borders on ridiculous levels. Particularly widespread are the ratting macros in 0.0 space. Virtually every space holding alliance got at least several people that run macros. To be fair, the rest of the alliance is never aware of this, so banning entire alliances is not appropriate. These bots are very advanced too. They no longer work by grabbing the screen, but accessing the internal application calls via Windows API. In simple terms it hacks the client. Thus removing local will not do anything since the bot software will still pick-up the server message that someone entered and will safe up/cloak/log off. This tempering is not new: Every competitive online game gets hacked like that. Possible solution is to use punkbuster-like application that scans local memory for use of such applications. There might be other solutions, but that is all that comes to mind. Even if the person running the macro never uses it for RMT/GTC trade, it still is harmful to the EVE as a whole. For one it injects massive ISK amounts into the economy which eventually will result in inflation. Another is that it makes any kind of competition unfair. Imagine if a corporation of macros was setup with all the income going to the alliance. Keep in mind that this corporation could be in a whole another alliance in some other part of the map, so never under threat if the keeper's space gets invaded. With that massive income that alliance can simply outclass/outnumber their opponents with no risk. For example if you got 50 billion coming in per week (Doable if you got like 30 macros working 23.5/7) imagine how many super-capitals you can buy with that. If you can handle the logistics of building/moving them (Admittedly not easy) you can outfit whole corporations with them. And if you lose them, it is no risk given the guaranteed income coming in. Thus the opponent's only choice is either give up or use macros themselves. It is also unfair to the people that honestly play EVE. They would spend quite an amount of time, effort and sometimes risk raising ISK to afford their carrier while macro owner just relaxes with ISK rolling in. Knowing this you just feel like a sucker to use honest ways to earn your assets. There is a very nice set of articles on this on the evenews24 site: http://www.evenews24.com/2010/12/08/rmt-uncovered-the-interview/
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2010.12.12 01:54:00 - [289] I've always felt like a sucker actively ratting and doing invention after I saw a guy macroing 23/7 in two near -1 systems in Delve. I managed to kill him a few times by putting up bubbles at his undefended pos but he was always back the next day in a new ship.
Michal Fogel Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.12 02:05:00 - [290] i wish i could find a good sauce for a bot :( im just 2 lazy after almost 4 years .

Quin Dar	Posted - 2010.12.12 06:54:00 - [291] It's very easy to stop micro miners and other botters. 10 years old games have something against botters and only CCP do not want to do anything, cos then CCP will lost alot of micro miners subscriptions. Only one thing need to do is prebuild in EVE program like - Punkbuster for Unreal tournament
Rasz Lin Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.12.12 07:08:00 - [292] Originally by: Arx Eladios Even if the person running the macro never uses it for RMT/GTC trade, it still is harmful to the EVE as a whole. EVE playerbase yes, CCP NO. More ISK means more buying power on PLEX market = more PLEX sold = more profit. More bots means more PLEX sold to fuel those bot accounts. CCP is ONLY concerned about RTM, but they leave bots alone.
Carniflex StarHunt R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.12.12 07:43:00 - [293] Originally by: Rasz Lin Originally by: Arx Eladios Even if the person running the macro never uses it for RMT/GTC trade, it still is harmful to the EVE as a whole. EVE playerbase yes, CCP NO. More ISK means more buying power on PLEX market = more PLEX sold = more profit. More bots means more PLEX sold to fuel those bot accounts. CCP is ONLY concerned about RTM, but they leave bots alone. That is not quite correct - you see, if people start really believing that CCP does not care about bots but only about RMT then people no longer have a reason to sell a PLEX as it would be cheaper just to buy your own bot and get the 20 bil / month instead of spending 30 bucks for 700 mil in the form of PLEX. And ofc if rampant macroing gets out of hand most 'honest' players will just quit. In such competitive environment you do not have any reason to play if you see that only way to compete would be running bots of your own and you are not willing to run bots.
Trajan Ultor	Posted - 2010.12.12 07:47:00 - [294] I don't think CCP cares about Bots. Many great 0.0 alliances would fall if Bots were outlawed.
Spineker Caldari Apolitical	Posted - 2010.12.12 07:48:00 - [295] Originally by: Trajan Ultor I don't think CCP cares about Bots. Many great 0.0 alliances would fall if Bots were outlawed. CCP gave 0.0 alliances BPO's no bots dont bother them at all with plex.
betty drunkenlord	Posted - 2010.12.12 12:00:00 - [296] Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. CCP, fight the cause not effect! First let's distinguish between cause and effect here. RMT is an effect. What is a cause? Stolen accounts - yes, corp frauds - yes, tech moons - to limited degree, but the true and biggest cause is a growing army of bots generating unlimited stream of isk each month. And it is your shortsighted view that let that go unpunished for a long time . How could you not envisioned that botting activities turn out into mass RMT sooner or later? It's obvious. Let's assume it starts with a few players using macros to generate an income for them. Great. They don't RMT, they keep profits for themselves sooner or later gathering influence and power, grabbing some space, creating powerful 0.0 alliance. They gather more corps also using bots, fun is superb. But then even if they loose supercaps, sponsor mercs, play market games to destroy other alliances the isk stream is just growing faster than they could spend it. And since they have already broken botting rule and saw that ccp allows crime go unpunished it's just a matter of time when someone among them start organizing cash for isk activities. It's exactly the process described on various forums. Then it's simple to envision how the botters employing RMT could successfuly expand their customer base -> just don't let normal people earn cash to upkeep their accounts. How? Mercs for 0.0, mercs for empire, constant war between big blocks, cta all the time so to force maximum people in alliances to pay for game either by buying isk from ccp or rmters. \o/ more profit for ccp, more profit for RMTers, what could possibly go wrong? Well, in a short period it's a win-win situation both for botters (rmters) and ccp. What happens long term? Alliance leaders employing bots, mercs and earning more and more rl income from RMT just kill their cash cow which are ordinary soliders as they see that the game is rigged, they cannot win and enjoy the game as all the stars are aligned against them. It's like with crime, when police let go away pickpocketers the problem grows until we see armed gangs robbing and killing people around. Then one step in the future crime corrupts police. Inversely, when police in NY introduced zero tolerancy taking care of small pickpocketers, the level of crime OVERALL decreased in the city. The police was so successful that other cities started to copy that solution. Want to successfuly fight RMT? Want to increase real player base long term; not just playing the game of cat and mouse? Fight the cause, not just effect. Kill the bots, simple as that.
Carniflex StarHunt R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.12.12 12:27:00 - [297] I would like to see more clever algorithms for detecting bots, if it's feasible. Granted the data amounts are massive and CCP propably does not have computing power to do that on their own. However once they figure out what to look for it might be possible to compress the logs of player activities somehow and then send them to player computers for further analysis using processing power currently unused by EVE client. I mean computers have many cores nowadays, but each EVE client tends to use only one of those most of the time. So the analyzis tool could be part of the official client. Or do somekind of SETI@home kind of data analysis tool that players can install in their computers and that would be able to run in the background at low priority using idle processor power to hunt the bots for CCP. For example for a start looking if some action is too 'regular' should be able to nail the simplest bots that dont randomize their actions but just use previously saved script for actions. There should be some other more complex patterns one can track to flag the bots for more detailed investigation. To avoid data tampering same dataset would need to be analyzed by several different people ofc, same as it is done with SETI program.
betty drunkenlord	Posted - 2010.12.12 13:05:00 - [298] Originally by: Carniflex I would like to see more clever algorithms for detecting bots, if it's feasible. Granted the data amounts are massive and CCP propably does not have computing power to do that on their own. However once they figure out what to look for it might be possible to compress the logs of player activities somehow and then send them to player computers for further analysis using processing power currently unused by EVE client. I mean computers have many cores nowadays, but each EVE client tends to use only one of those most of the time. So the analyzis tool could be part of the official client. Or do somekind of SETI@home kind of data analysis tool that players can install in their computers and that would be able to run in the background at low priority using idle processor power to hunt the bots for CCP. For example for a start looking if some action is too 'regular' should be able to nail the simplest bots that dont randomize their actions but just use previously saved script for actions. There should be some other more complex patterns one can track to flag the bots for more detailed investigation. To avoid data tampering same dataset would need to be analyzed by several different people ofc, same as it is done with SETI program. yes, we need that. we need also clear communication campaign, that not only RMT is bad, but also all forms of botting are bad and are hurting player experience as was clearly explained in multiple threads. Sorry but I've got impression that right now CCP is acting like a selfish alliance leader caring only about its tech moons and rent(from botters) profit, rather than wellbeing of its soldiers (real players). Guess what happens next with the alliance?
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.12 13:15:00 - [299] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 12/12/2010 13:16:30 Originally by: Arx Eladios These bots are very advanced too. They no longer work by grabbing the screen, but accessing the internal application calls via Windows API. In simple terms it hacks the client. Thus removing local will not do anything since the bot software will still pick-up the server message that someone entered and will safe up/cloak/log off. This tempering is not new: Every competitive online game gets hacked like that. Why would the server send such a message to the client if the client didn't need to know at that point. I can't see any reason for sending that information other then so the client knows to update the local with the information. If no local then no reason to send that information and so no advance warning for the bot. Since that article was written by a obvious bot enthusiast it seems to me more like a slight of hand trick to get people off the idea that local removal would hurt bots. Which is most certainly would (unless theres a reason the server would send that information to the client which I doubt) --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
Enarem Kador	Posted - 2010.12.12 13:19:00 - [300] Stop throwing bones to people, CCP. We are not dogs. Fix the damn problem for good, properly.

Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.12 13:27:00 - [301] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 12/12/2010 13:29:06 Originally by: Enarem Kador Stop throwing bones to people, CCP. We are not dogs. Fix the damn problem for good, properly. Um yeah. Bots and macros are a scourge for all mmo's and they are not easily defeated or cured. They're like the aids virus, they adapt as fast as you can think of a cure. There is no simple fix, many have tried and most have failed miserably, all have failed to some extent. If you found a failsafe way to remove all automation, they would still do it, but they'd be online farmers instead. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.12 13:33:00 - [302] 300th Snipe -- I can not decide on a sig yet. Under Construction.
Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.12.12 13:36:00 - [303] Originally by: betty drunkenlord Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. CCP, fight the cause not effect! etc You are 100% right, if the game was actually worth playing and there was an ability to create corporations which would give everyone the ability field and fight for territory then people would have a very good reason to stay. But the situation of alliances holding all the territory and the gank mechanics have left CCP with no room to manouvre, there is only one result possible - concentration of power and exclusion of the majority by the rich few. But I'm sure CCP thought this would play into their hands as people would buy plex - even the botters. But it hasn't worked has it ? Ultimately your own game mechanics are doing more to help botters and create a self degenerating cirlce of pointless game play. I can see only two reasons to play Eve -> Kill mails and griefing. Not many people actually want to bother with this kind of stuff. Still I don't see it ever ending, 7 years of null sec development and 0 years of high sec development and you still haven't learnt a thing. Your still stuck in gank mode, get off the tread mill, drop the gank bat mobile and get on providing something people value playing. PvP comes with the ability to have a stable income and the ability to apply that ISK, start providing legit ways corps can make that ISK through interaction. Recently you keep introducing one after another of simple mind numbing boring repetative easily botted crap: 1) Planetary interaction 2) Rorqual,, like wtf ? 3) Sov mechanics, lets create some central target lagfests and botting activities required to improve systems. Obvious stuff 1) Get rid of officer spawns in rat belts already,,, no reason what so ever they should be there. 2) Make mining interactive, all of it 3) Change missions for god sakes and make them dynamic 4) Stop making alliances able to dominate the map - this just does not make any business sense for your company. If the game cannot allow a group of new players to gain sov in one system and keep it within 1 year then there is no game and you wont get many subscribers. I mean really this is a no brainer at all. AND STOP LINKING IT TO ALLIANCES ALREADY. 5) Stop making gank mobiles that only rich players can afford. 6) IDENTIFY YOUR CUSTOMERS THAT PAY, create the game play they want not looking after a bunch of people who already dont pay. 7) Get rid of the failure that is T2 BPOs. You're running a business, your business relies on your customers having the knowledge that there is a set of rules that keep everything on a level playing field, no matter how harsh - if you cant be bothered to look after your own business then watch it be taken away from you.
Goparu Prdc3r Caldari Tormentum Insomniae IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.12 16:45:00 - [304] CCP Dr.EyjoG can you tell us, if you actually know ( I bet you do), how much money is being dumped into eve's economy through bots? 5%, 10%, 20%?? How much more value would my sadly ratted/mined/plexed/PI'd isk have?
Dmoney3788 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.12 17:10:00 - [305] Edited by: Dmoney3788 on 12/12/2010 17:11:23 Originally by: Jaqel Broadside 4) Stop making alliances able to dominate the map - this just does not make any business sense for your company. If the game cannot allow a group of new players to gain sov in one system and keep it within 1 year then there is no game and you wont get many subscribers. I mean really this is a no brainer at all. AND STOP LINKING IT TO ALLIANCES ALREADY. This made my day. So more or less you want the riches of 0.0 but don't have the manpower to claim a system. Guess what? There is no game mechanic that can prevent a larger corp/alliance from annihilating a smaller one that is fair and balanced.
waferzankko The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.12 17:41:00 - [306] thet took our jobs!
Dr Nefarius	Posted - 2010.12.12 17:50:00 - [307] I fully support this whining. CCP please work to get rid of all macros and not only those in RMT.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.12 17:52:00 - [308] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 12/12/2010 17:56:20 Originally by: Jaqel Broadside 5) Stop making gank mobiles that only rich players can afford. wow, you're lecturing about business sense but seem to be a bit lacking in that regard yourself... example: have a superpwnmobile for old players. -> old players remain motivated because they have a goal to aim for and can dominate the battlefield -> newer players will sell PLEX to keep up with the older players thus financing the older players' subscription. (new players who don't like to spend effort or RL cash to get the ISK advantage can tag along with the older players) -> more paying subscribers make older players leave because there is no "end-game" content -> less players, newer players have no real reasons to sell PLEX because everything is easily attainable - neither do they have the perspective that one day they too will play this game for free if they just stick with it for another few months -> fail. now you're going to claim that all the new players quit the game because it is so unfair - but in my experience the "instant gratification" type of players has relatively little worries to spend some RL cash in order to get more ISK or a better character. EVE's business model is a pyramid scheme. You keep older players as active accounts even if they aren't that interested in the game anymore by allowing them to play for free. The presence of these older players and the pvp aspect of EVE "motivates" younger player to pay the subscription fees of these older players thus perpetuating the circle.
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2010.12.12 22:13:00 - [309] Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion Originally by: Per Bastet Why not Implement a Name and Shame for Botters that are Caught? Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them. We have the Capability to Self Police to a Good extent - But we need to know who to nail to the wall. Great that you have the ability to self police all of EvE: Most botters can be found in the following sovereignity holding alliances: Please gank them on a consistent enough basis: - IT alliance - Goonswarm Alliance - Triple A There you go. Even allies like CVA have them. Mostly ice-bots there. Talked to a high rank guy from CVA once and he told me "if you have ISK probs start some mining bots like I do". So I do any bet ANY ally uses them! And about the "CCP stop intruducing expinve ships". I'm sorry to say this BUT if CCP realy start a fight against all the bots you will see ore/ice price go up by double or even trippel. This will lead to much more expensive NORMAL T1 ships too.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.12 22:40:00 - [310] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Even allies like CVA have them. Mostly ice-bots there. Talked to a high rank guy from CVA once and he told me "if you have ISK probs start some mining bots like I do". So I do any bet ANY ally uses them! Almost any major alliance has members that run bots. Almost any major alliance does de-facto practice a "blues don't report blues" policy. However, not every major alliance does knowingly rent space to whole botting corps (without any legit members that turn up to CTAs, ...) in order to tax them (bounties/reprocessing). There is (imo) a huge difference between individual members running bots (and corp/alliance officials following a "don't ask, don't tell" policy) and the alliance itself being engaged in botting or RMT activities. Even if the CEO of the executor corp is known to run a few bots on the side to augment his personal income that's imo less of an issue than using said bots as alliance property to fill the alliance warchest.

Sillypants McAwesome	Posted - 2010.12.12 22:41:00 - [311] Edited by: Sillypants McAwesome on 12/12/2010 22:41:23 You know guys, I think something fishy is happening in here: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/WIW-X8
eddie valvetino Caldari TunDraGon Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.12.12 22:54:00 - [312] was nearly a good copy of V for vendetta nearly (\_/) (O.o) (> <)
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2010.12.12 23:56:00 - [313] Originally by: Cyaxares II Almost any major alliance has members that run bots. And that's part of the problem why a new ally/corp has big trubble getting first steps into 0.0. Most of the old 0.0 allys run this bots for a LOOOONG time and have so much ISK, that they can throw cap after cap into fights. If you want to compet you NEED to run bots too or you wont have the ISK to counter throw caps. Even wors it is with super caps. There is no way except month of regular mining ops (we all know how much PvP 0.0 junkys "love" mining) or run mining-bot-ops. And again we all know: PvP tend to do anything to avoid PvE stuff ;).
Arx Eladios SPORADIC MOVEMENT The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.12.13 02:04:00 - [314] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 12/12/2010 13:17:29 Originally by: Arx Eladios These bots are very advanced too. They no longer work by grabbing the screen, but accessing the internal application calls via Windows API. In simple terms it hacks the client. Thus removing local will not do anything since the bot software will still pick-up the server message that someone entered and will safe up/cloak/log off. This tempering is not new: Every competitive online game gets hacked like that. Why would the server send such a message to the client if the client didn't need to know at that point. I can't see any reason for sending that information other then so the client knows to update the local with the information. If no local then no reason to send that information and so no advance warning for the bot. There is more information needed than whether to add the person to local. For example the gate needs to light up, their ship must appear on directional scanner and so on. Sure you could write extra code that says "If this person is not on the gate, don't bother sending message" but this just doesn't scale. Imagine 800 people fleet sitting on the gate and the server having to check the location of each. Like it or not, but every client needs to know whether someone enters the system regardless how it uses this information. Originally by: Infinity Ziona Since that article was written by a obvious bot enthusiast it seems to me more like a slight of hand trick to get people off the idea that local removal would hurt bots. Which it most certainly would (unless theres a reason the server would send that information to the client which I doubt) Perhaps. Just that his explanation makes sense. Modification of client/memory overwrite programs are so common out there (Aimbots, etc) that it would be odd that same wasn't created for EVE. And interception/deciphering information coming in from the server packets is trivial. Besides changing local behaviour is too much of a game-changing idea. It is being used so extensively in 0.0 gameplay that any change will have a massive impact, therefore it is simply off the table. It has been talked about for as long as EVE existed and nothing came out of it.
Aelius Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2010.12.13 02:09:00 - [315] "BOTS IN MY EVE?! IMPOSSIBLE" says CCP... We ganked a "few" today and filed a petition... and also put them all in watch list... to see if CCP bans them.... then i will have my proof if CCP really cares. see the carnage here http://mnee.eve-kill.net _________________________ CSM Candidate for 2011 (soon a pretty photoshop sig) Aelius 2011 Candidacy Guide Lines
Merth Righter	Posted - 2010.12.13 03:08:00 - [316] I have a suggestion, but it will require more GMs... I used to play this awe-full mmo called fairyland, F2P but P2W. Playing without paying meant loads of grinding, something I eventually got fed up with. Not really caring at that time I wrote a simple script to level some skills for me. It just made me run up and down and automated combat, not smart, djsut repeated the same sequence over and over. Being the careless idiot I was I left the script running somewhere where players occasionally came trough. I was reported, Almost immediately I was picked up by a GM and put in some kind of prison, He started talking to me, obviously I didn't respond, I was watching TV. When the GM establish I was just an automatic program he just banned me obviously. Something like this should be implemented in EVE as well. As soon as someone is reported for botting a GM should open a conversation with the player, if the GM establishes that there is nobody behind the account but the character is still ratting activly, or mining and putting stuff in cans, A temp-ban should follow. If the offence is repeated a perma-ban. Obviously when someone is reported who is not a bot he can just reply, tell the GM he's really there etc. To prevent people from abusing this function the report function for the player (for botting) will be disable for the next hour or so, and if people the reported player is in PVP combat the GM should not be able to open a conversation, as to not let people abuse this to gank easier ;) that was my 0.02ISK.
ILikeMarkets	Posted - 2010.12.13 04:02:00 - [317] Originally by: Merth Righter I have a suggestion, but it will require more GMs... I used to play this awe-full mmo called fairyland, F2P but P2W. Playing without paying meant loads of grinding, something I eventually got fed up with. Not really caring at that time I wrote a simple script to level some skills for me. It just made me run up and down and automated combat, not smart, djsut repeated the same sequence over and over. Being the careless idiot I was I left the script running somewhere where players occasionally came trough. I was reported, Almost immediately I was picked up by a GM and put in some kind of prison, He started talking to me, obviously I didn't respond, I was watching TV. When the GM establish I was just an automatic program he just banned me obviously. Something like this should be implemented in EVE as well. As soon as someone is reported for botting a GM should open a conversation with the player, if the GM establishes that there is nobody behind the account but the character is still ratting activly, or mining and putting stuff in cans, A temp-ban should follow. If the offence is repeated a perma-ban. Obviously when someone is reported who is not a bot he can just reply, tell the GM he's really there etc. To prevent people from abusing this function the report function for the player (for botting) will be disable for the next hour or so, and if people the reported player is in PVP combat the GM should not be able to open a conversation, as to not let people abuse this to gank easier ;) that was my 0.02ISK. That's a difficult thing to work with. A) they can't just do it based on whether you respond to a conversation or not. I don't pay any attention to my chat window at most times and would be highly ticked if I got banned just for not saying hello back to someone. B) Pulling a player out and putting them elsewhere could have detrimental effects of the GM was mistaken and it really was a player. The player could end up losing drones, being put back in dangerous positions, etc. And of course, this returns to the whole not being punished for not watching chat. If you miss the chat window pop up, hello teleport and bye bye drones.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.13 04:14:00 - [318] Originally by: Arx Eladios Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 12/12/2010 13:17:29 Originally by: Arx Eladios These bots are very advanced too. They no longer work by grabbing the screen, but accessing the internal application calls via Windows API. In simple terms it hacks the client. Thus removing local will not do anything since the bot software will still pick-up the server message that someone entered and will safe up/cloak/log off. This tempering is not new: Every competitive online game gets hacked like that. Why would the server send such a message to the client if the client didn't need to know at that point. I can't see any reason for sending that information other then so the client knows to update the local with the information. If no local then no reason to send that information and so no advance warning for the bot. There is more information needed than whether to add the person to local. For example the gate needs to light up, their ship must appear on directional scanner and so on. Sure you could write extra code that says "If this person is not on the gate, don't bother sending message" but this just doesn't scale. Imagine 800 people fleet sitting on the gate and the server having to check the location of each. Like it or not, but every client needs to know whether someone enters the system regardless how it uses this information. I doubt they would have coded it like this. Everything probably happens on the server with only required information sent to a client if that client is in range. Why would a server send a gate message to your client if your nowhere near a gate. It probably works something like this. A person activates the gate on their client, server transfers them to the new system. The server then checks for pilots on grid or in range of the gate. The server then sends a message to each client telling it to activate the gate graphic and sounds etc. Same for scanners. Clicking scan most probably sends a query to the server saying "is there anything x distance from my coordinates on the server. The server then probably checks and then sends back any data on objects that it finds on the server which matches your coordinates + range of the scan. I find it unlikely that the server would waste resources updating your client with information that is not pertinent to the client at that point in time. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.12.13 05:46:00 - [319] Originally by: Sillypants McAwesome Edited by: Sillypants McAwesome on 12/12/2010 22:41:23 You know guys, I think something fishy is happening in here: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/WIW-X8 wow... 18,000 rats in 48hrs. and look at those spikes. looks like someone fills up on loot every 45 min or so and has to run abck to the station.
northwesten Amarr Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.12.13 05:53:00 - [320] Originally by: HyperZerg Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. We care about Macros and Bots, not RMT ... I starting to belive you don't want to get this one ... RMT destroys CCP Bots/Macros destroy the game. Let's fix both ! RMT is the big reason why Bots are here in the first place. Think before posting idiot

betty drunkenlord	Posted - 2010.12.13 07:30:00 - [321] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Originally by: Corcyrus Endymion Originally by: Per Bastet Why not Implement a Name and Shame for Botters that are Caught? Then the Rest of Eve Can Spend some time Ganking them. We have the Capability to Self Police to a Good extent - But we need to know who to nail to the wall. Great that you have the ability to self police all of EvE: Most botters can be found in the following sovereignity holding alliances: Please gank them on a consistent enough basis: - IT alliance - Goonswarm Alliance - Triple A There you go. Even allies like CVA have them. Mostly ice-bots there. Talked to a high rank guy from CVA once and he told me "if you have ISK probs start some mining bots like I do". So I do any bet ANY ally uses them! And about the "CCP stop intruducing expinve ships". I'm sorry to say this BUT if CCP realy start a fight against all the bots you will see ore/ice price go up by double or even trippel. This will lead to much more expensive NORMAL T1 ships too. So what if mineral/ice prices go through the roof? so what if all ships become more costly? less is more in the eve, people will just fly smaller ships which are hell more fun to pvp in. so what if new paradigm (without all types of bots) breakes largest alliances? the political landscape will become much more interesting and you'll fix the lag in the same time (less big alliances - less big fleet fights). Then mining profession will become more profitable again. It's time to come to your roots EVE, it's finally the time to nerf big alliances comfy living.
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E Talos Coalition	Posted - 2010.12.13 08:43:00 - [322] Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. yeah specialy when you report 1. and you get thanks well look in to it. and the macro keeps doing it untill the end of time.. Do not click this ad.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.12.13 10:57:00 - [323] Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. I have got a tiny idea, a modification of the captcha for Travian detailed above for miners 1) IF player ship is not in station / POS and has >= 1 mining / harvesting module 2) EVERY random time between 1 minute and 1 hour 3) SHOW transparent (like PI) window in random position with captcha including a simple math operation (so OCR has an harder time). This SHOW captcha has a status, so it'll pop up again on re-log (to avoid circumventing it). 4) IF no reply is made within 5 minutes then mining yield drops to 1% of its usual value (so bots don't "see" anything obvious to counter). Docking will restore yield to full but the captcha will show up at station undock. For combat ships I am sure it's possible to find a similar arrangement: 1) IF player ship has any offensive mod or T2 drones > small drones and not in station / POS 2) IF player ship is in belt grid or mission / deadspace / pocket 3) Same as above 3) 4) IF no reply is made within 5 minutes then the next bounty tick will be reduced to 1% from captcha showing up onwards. Not removed so bots have an harder time detecting if a captcha showed up or not. Quote: And that's part of the problem why a new ally/corp has big trubble getting first steps into 0.0. Most of the old 0.0 allys run this bots for a LOOOONG time and have so much ISK, that they can throw cap after cap into fights. If you want to compet you NEED to run bots too or you wont have the ISK to counter throw caps. It's even worse than that. If you are a real corp willing to humbly rent some 0.0 space they demand you so much money you can't afford it, because they assume and know you are botting and therefore asking 1B a month is "fair game" for keeping their mouths shut and ask no questions. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Alaizabel Bronstein	Posted - 2010.12.13 12:56:00 - [324] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha If you are a real corp willing to humbly rent some 0.0 space they demand you so much money you can't afford it, because they assume and know you are botting and therefore asking 1B a month is "fair game" for keeping their mouths shut and ask no questions. IT's standard renting rate is 10b/month for a single system (you can negotiate discounts for additional systems).
Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.13 13:06:00 - [325] Originally by: Alaizabel Bronstein Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha If you are a real corp willing to humbly rent some 0.0 space they demand you so much money you can't afford it, because they assume and know you are botting and therefore asking 1B a month is "fair game" for keeping their mouths shut and ask no questions. IT's standard renting rate is 10b/month for a single system (you can negotiate discounts for additional systems). Which frankly isn't unreasonable assuming that the renter corp has 10 members. 1bill each/month = 30 mill a day. Real 0.0 players who PvE and PvP for a few hours a week make way way more than that a day. 250-400mill a day was normal in the last alliance I was in, and from what I saw the core corps weren't macroing. Do note that the "250-400mill" included faction mods etc which would need to be sold, I'm not talking just bounty income.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.13 13:10:00 - [326] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 13/12/2010 13:11:47 Computers are extremely good at puzzles and math. Anything that you can think of that's sent to the client like a math quiz will be picked up and solved much faster by the bot then it would by the human. Computers are rather stupid at holistic thinking. Humans are rather good at it. Creating a situation where a bot is required to feel its way through an encounter based on prior experience and learning will be harder to crack for the bot makers then what we currently have which is npc's doing identical and predictable things which are easily handled. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
betty drunkenlord	Posted - 2010.12.13 16:20:00 - [327] Originally by: Alaizabel Bronstein Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha If you are a real corp willing to humbly rent some 0.0 space they demand you so much money you can't afford it, because they assume and know you are botting and therefore asking 1B a month is "fair game" for keeping their mouths shut and ask no questions. IT's standard renting rate is 10b/month for a single system (you can negotiate discounts for additional systems). Isn't that the alliance leaders are main benefactors from ratting/mining bots apart from renters employing bots? It's not hard to assume the situation is perfect for them -> they collect very high rent allowing botting and also avoid risk of being caught (my renter is using bots? I could have never guessed...). This is probably why major alliance leaders will fight against doing something with bots because large share of their profits depends on... bots. It is one more aspect of a game that needs immediate balancing. If the botting was dealt with, leaders would have to focus more on wellbeing of its soldiers because they would actually be the source of income. No wonder why they are looking only for pvp players (because ratting thus all the earnings is done by bots and reserved to themselves).
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2010.12.13 16:33:00 - [328] Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 13/12/2010 16:34:07 Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. Please, don't focus purely on the RMT angle and loose sight of the non-RMT bots. Bots that exist to fund an actual player vs an RL business have all the same negative effects on the gaming and competitive environments as RMT bots & farmers.
Vespoi Filar	Posted - 2010.12.13 16:52:00 - [329] I've reported botters many times. Months ago. They are still here. nuff said btw can anyone link me a good botting application? Apparently CCP doesn't give a ****!
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.13 18:07:00 - [330] the requested devblog has been posted. (and I guess it's title describes the direction this thread is going to take )

Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.13 19:01:00 - [331] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha For combat ships I am sure it's possible to find a similar arrangement: Yeah there is actually and given the weak devblog I think its worth considering. Remove npc bounties from 0.0 ratting. There's no valid "in-game reason" for them to be paid. 0.0 has unique rewards in terms of materials and faction items. Bounties shouldn't exist - or they should be paid by the controlling sov entity. Remember that npc bounties are the only way to generate significant quantities of NEW isk in-game. Time to look very hard at this I think.
Stratego Ad Infernum	Posted - 2010.12.13 19:20:00 - [332] Always fun when i petitioned CCP about the macrohaulers in the system i live at (30+) only to get a reply saying "give us a list of names", always lovely to get asked to do their work for them when they could just sit themselves there for 20minutes and start banning :/ "Education and heightening of awareness constitutes a major requirement in our battle plan. Many of the ISK buyers we process claim ignorance of the rules and we must make sure that information is available and prominent." Being a ***** with them aint going to work CCP.
Aijle Mijleroff	Posted - 2010.12.14 01:22:00 - [333] I am very upset devblog ССР ' Raging On '. There was an impression, that the boats buying plex's, for ССР it is more important than ordinary players. I think soon on a server of ССР there will be only boats. I am very upset and I can not play properly now EVE. I would not like to pay more a subscription, can, if ССР will take actual measures against boats then I shall continue to pay a subscription.
Dmoney3788 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.14 02:35:00 - [334] Originally by: Aijle Mijleroff I am very upset devblog ССР ' Raging On '. There was an impression, that the bots buying plex's, for ССР it is more important than ordinary players. I think soon on a server of ССР there will be only bots. I am very upset and I can not play properly now EVE. I would not like to pay more a subscription, can, if ССР will take actual measures against bots then I shall continue to pay a subscription. Fix'd (Hint: boat = bot)
Zyno 04	Posted - 2010.12.14 02:51:00 - [335] As player, i am forced to compete in a sandbox environment with 23/7 bots for the same resources. I am undecided if my continued preference for your service denotes idiocy or stupidity on my behalf, but surely, it must be one of them.
Meridian Siri	Posted - 2010.12.14 04:06:00 - [336] Hey, Did that dev-blog seem like a pile of non-informative drivel that basically did not say **** about the alleged involvement/entrenchment of certain alliances in botting/RMT to anyone else? I thought this was supposed to an update on CCP efforts on this issue. Demanding a do-over on this.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.14 08:32:00 - [337] As expected the devblog was nothing more than RMT, wake up CCP, the bot costs the same as buying 1 bill, why would anyone with a brain risk buying ISK when they can get a bot and get unlimited ISK faster and easier. It is like arresting drug dealers but saying the grow houses are too difficult to spot, sigh. Now my bitter side has returned, I think I will go rat AND mine for 2 months straight on all my chars, nothing out of the ordinary is it IN ORDER TO KILL A WART YOU NEED TO KILL THE ROOTS!! Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Target Painter	Posted - 2010.12.14 09:27:00 - [338] Originally by: Tyrrant I said it before and I will say it again. If we want to remove all the botters all we have to do is remove the local in 0.0 and make it delayed mode. This will do a couple things. It will make scouts actually useful and people wont rely on that damn local count. It will also make every single 0.0 botter die in a fire to stealth bombers + recons. Lastly, it will boost black ops and covert bridges. They mostly use Drakes, Tengus and Ravens that remain aligned 99% of the time. You appear in local, on D-scan or on-grid and they instantly warp. There is a fairl eloquent setup they use for safe mining where there will be a system at the end of a "chain" of two jump systems. There will be a scout bot, or several, acting as kind of an intel network players use. You pop into the bottom of the chain, they align, you hit halfway up the pipe, they warp. It's incredibly frustrating.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.14 11:50:00 - [339] Originally by: Target Painter Originally by: Tyrrant I said it before and I will say it again. If we want to remove all the botters all we have to do is remove the local in 0.0 and make it delayed mode. This will do a couple things. It will make scouts actually useful and people wont rely on that damn local count. It will also make every single 0.0 botter die in a fire to stealth bombers + recons. Lastly, it will boost black ops and covert bridges. They mostly use Drakes, Tengus and Ravens that remain aligned 99% of the time. You appear in local, on D-scan or on-grid and they instantly warp. There is a fairl eloquent setup they use for safe mining where there will be a system at the end of a "chain" of two jump systems. There will be a scout bot, or several, acting as kind of an intel network players use. You pop into the bottom of the chain, they align, you hit halfway up the pipe, they warp. It's incredibly frustrating. Stealth bombers. Or afk cloaking after finishing playing eve. Two very good counters. One kills them the other makes them useless. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
Iceni	Posted - 2010.12.14 11:52:00 - [340] This thread makes me glad I only play EVE for a bit of pew pew when I need a break from rl...

Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.14 12:20:00 - [341] You can start by telling your alliance bosses not to buy PLEX and ISKs of Chinese websites. RMT only works because some morons think they can buy everything. Stop buying it. Get your PLEX and ISK the way you want everyone else to get them - by playing the game - and stop thinking you have got nothing to do with it. Do you let your junk hang out and then complain about the flies it attracts? No. Your money makes Russians and Chinese run bots, because they can make a few thousand dollars per month with it. What is a small or average income for western standards is a lot more for them. They will not stop with it, because it feeds their families. All you do is to blame it on people who are trying to make a living in a free world. The problem is created by people who do not want to make ISK by playing the game, but want to buy it with real money. Stop blaming those who run bots, but start with those who want to win EVE with throwing lots of money at it. They are the ones who crap on EVE. --
Superpossee	Posted - 2010.12.14 12:29:00 - [342] This is not just about RMT. RMT is mainly a ccp-problem. The main problem is the thousands of players with bot-alts funding their gametime, shiny ships, supercaps without putting any effort in it. Its called cheating and you dont want your opponent to be a cheater because you cannot win then. Playing against an enemy with endless isk-income is pointless and ruins the fun of the game. Look at all the SCs and titans being built and sold atm, fun? Thats what its about. Some good ideas of how to give players the means to deal with botters themselves have been mentioned in this thread. If ccp keeps ignoring the problem the quality of the game will go down rapidly
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.14 12:56:00 - [343] Originally by: Superpossee This is not just about RMT. RMT is mainly a ccp-problem. The main problem is the thousands of players with bot-alts funding their gametime, shiny ships, supercaps without putting any effort in it. Its called cheating and you dont want your opponent to be a cheater because you cannot win then. Playing against an enemy with endless isk-income is pointless and ruins the fun of the game. Look at all the SCs and titans being built and sold atm, fun? Thats what its about. Some good ideas of how to give players the means to deal with botters themselves have been mentioned in this thread. If ccp keeps ignoring the problem the quality of the game will go down rapidly True, but these players are a minor problem compared to what is happening. There are wars going on where the only goal is to go against those suspected of RMT, the Russians. Entire alliances start showing fascist tendencies. It starts with being just fun, but it becomes more and more often nothing less than harassment of russian speaking players on a grand scale. Some put their dislike into their bios and corp descriptions, saying that they are "anti-russian". --
Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.12.14 14:09:00 - [344] Originally by: Whitehound Your money makes Russians and Chinese run bots, because they can make a few thousand dollars per month with it. What is a small or average income for western standards is a lot more for them. They will not stop with it, because it feeds their families. All you do is to blame it on people who are trying to make a living in a free world. who want to win EVE with throwing lots of money at it. They are the ones who crap on EVE. This is absolutely and utterly wrong. You should be ashamed of yourself. The eastern countries are as capable as any others at producing great games like "The Witcher" and there are many, many games out there which being produced by those companies. All of them providing a way of life and the ability to raise a family. The actions of macros and botters spoil what should be an entertainment game into one riddled with RL issues and an in-game lack of playability. Eve is not a way of creating income for "God knows who",, how long before real life criminals take advantage of this ? Where exactly do you think they will spend their money ? Trafficing people, drugs, smuggling or buying food for their "families". Take the ethics you are espousing to a charity site. Bots make playing Eve pointless,, no one can compete with a bot -> end of game.
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:17:00 - [345] Originally by: Jaqel Broadside Originally by: Whitehound Your money makes Russians and Chinese run bots, because they can make a few thousand dollars per month with it. What is a small or average income for western standards is a lot more for them. They will not stop with it, because it feeds their families. All you do is to blame it on people who are trying to make a living in a free world. who want to win EVE with throwing lots of money at it. They are the ones who crap on EVE. This is absolutely and utterly wrong. You should be ashamed of yourself. The eastern countries are as capable as any others at producing great games like "The Witcher" and there are many, many games out there which being produced by those companies. All of them providing a way of life and the ability to raise a family. The actions of macros and botters spoil what should be an entertainment game into one riddled with RL issues and an in-game lack of playability. Eve is not a way of creating income for "God knows who",, how long before real life criminals take advantage of this ? Where exactly do you think they will spend their money ? Trafficing people, drugs, smuggling or buying food for their "families". Take the ethics you are espousing to a charity site. Bots make playing Eve pointless,, no one can compete with a bot -> end of game. Eh? Should be ashamed of what? It's the people that buy it that give the people doing it reason to sell it - without a buyer there'd be no seller. Stop buying isk and they'll not be able to make a living from it. I don't see where the shame comes from, just because people in Russia and China can make a living some other way doesn't mean nobody makes a living the bad way? They make great games, so do lots of countries, but there are lots of people in lots of countries catering to a market that exists in EVE to make their living - selling isk.
Target Painter	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:24:00 - [346] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Stealth bombers. Or afk cloaking after finishing playing eve. Two very good counters. One kills them the other makes them useless. Regarding stealth bombers, there was a period of time when their local monitoring capability stopped working. The ratting bots still could monitor d-scan and their overview however. The instant you would decloak, they would warp, since they spend all their time aligned out. There may be some technique around it, but I never figured out because within a few days they were back to watching local. The most effective way of catching them is a combination of anchored bubbles and logoffskis, but then you figure you're spending 30 minutes to 2 hours to kill a single T2 fit Raven or Drake (the Tengus are nullified). That's just a little bit more work I feel like putting into my gametime.
Whitehound The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.14 15:38:00 - [347] Originally by: Jaqel Broadside Take the ethics you are espousing to a charity site. Bots make playing Eve pointless,, no one can compete with a bot -> end of game. Let me ask you, what did your attitude give you this far? Nothing. All the complaining about macros and bots has not changed anything. CCP then has banned bots in the past because of the CPU load these created, not because it might be morally wrong. The false moral is not on the side of those who spend a lot of time with the game and develop macros and bots. It is those who have not got a clue about the game and buy the ISKs. I hope your protest leaves you a little time to take a breath. It takes a while to calm down and to look at the problem without being upset or angry about the botters making lots more ISKs than you do. Did you know that botters can make 300 billion ISK per month? 300 BILLION ISK. Now, think of all those people who are buying them. 300 billion ISK per month changing hands from one, single botter to a buyer. Any idea who needs this much ISKs to play EVE? I do not think that it is the noob in his rookie ship who buys ISKs. --
Identity Agent	Posted - 2010.12.14 16:09:00 - [348] bot infested systems listed out here we've pointed them out to you, now do something about them.
Adamantor	Posted - 2010.12.14 17:44:00 - [349] Edited by: Adamantor on 14/12/2010 17:44:53 CCP needs to come up with a solution and make it clear that their intent is to prevent any bot's. There have been a lot of mention of other MMO's, but EVE is rather unique in it's economic model making botting extremely unbalancing from a competitive perspective. Just reading about these issues has many of my corp mates frustrated with EVE after having worked thorough legitimate methods for so long, only to realize someone could have ran a few bots and exceeded their financial success in a much shorter period of time. I understand the reasons why some are tempted to bot, but that undermines the entire game system. It's no different than any other game, many people take the easy road and cheat using a myriad of excuses why it's justified. You might as well log into Sisi and play where everything costs 1 ISK.
Wartrec	Posted - 2010.12.15 00:11:00 - [350] Just in case any of you macro users misssed this thread.

oldmanst4r Minmatar oldmanst4r's Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.15 00:22:00 - [351] Originally by: Wartrec Just in case any of you macro users misssed this thread. Yes, macro users can look at this thread to confirm their suspicions that CCP doesn't give a flip as to whether they cheat or not. Wouldn't want them to be stressed out not knowing for sure. Originally by: CCP Shadow snip Castration successful. Shadow.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.12.15 00:39:00 - [352] Quote: You can start by telling your alliance bosses not to buy PLEX and ISKs of Chinese websites. RMT only works because some morons think they can buy everything. Stop buying it. Get your PLEX and ISK the way you want everyone else to get them - by playing the game - and stop thinking you have got nothing to do with it. Teaching people not to cheat is a very long term objective. This stance is totally simplicistic, it's the same as standing on a high horse and saying that people should stop committing crimes. O really? No way, those committing crimes don't give a BEEP about you preaching them to be good boys. In RL we get police to convince them, what do we get in EvE? In EvE what I have met is an endless stream of clueless GM that closely remind those overseas call centers. The players have to explain them the 101 of what happens and escalate the issue to GMs with a clue as soon as the problem requires an above chimpanze level knowledge. How can anyone expect they'll even bother or know how to properly alert the higher tiers of actual employees up the CCP food chain? The blog is a testament to this. It seems written by an alien. WE ARE FUCED EVERY DAY BY BOTS in a game that unlike the others: - is competitive - relies on an healthy economy - has no parachute mechanisms for RMT - is CHOKING FULL of easily botted activities - has dire consequences in case of loss. I lose a SC that took me 3 RL years to grind? I am BONED (the corp will help but the hurt IS here). A botter or - worse - a RMTer loses a SC? Yawn he'll have to log in one of his 20 other ones. How does this look in the flaunted competitive, pure PvP MMO? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read* http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.15 03:25:00 - [353] Originally by: Target Painter Originally by: Infinity Ziona Stealth bombers. Or afk cloaking after finishing playing eve. Two very good counters. One kills them the other makes them useless. Regarding stealth bombers, there was a period of time when their local monitoring capability stopped working. The ratting bots still could monitor d-scan and their overview however. The instant you would decloak, they would warp, since they spend all their time aligned out. There may be some technique around it, but I never figured out because within a few days they were back to watching local. The most effective way of catching them is a combination of anchored bubbles and logoffskis, but then you figure you're spending 30 minutes to 2 hours to kill a single T2 fit Raven or Drake (the Tengus are nullified). That's just a little bit more work I feel like putting into my gametime. I don't see how they could react that fast. A stealth bomber can lock instantly, it doesn't show up on d-scan. I would think due to latency, by the time the client on their end registers the bomber even decloaked they're already scrambled. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
Target Painter	Posted - 2010.12.15 06:11:00 - [354] Edited by: Target Painter on 15/12/2010 06:12:34 Originally by: Infinity Ziona I don't see how they could react that fast. A stealth bomber can lock instantly, it doesn't show up on d-scan. It shows up on overview when decloaking and while you are able to start locking on, getting a lock takes around 2 or 3 seconds for a Drake or Tengu (off the top of my head). Quote: I would think due to latency, by the time the client on their end registers the bomber even decloaked they're already scrambled. Latency cuts both ways. You decloak and for a few seconds clicking, get the message(s) saying, "You cannot target while cloaked." Aligned out warps are instanteous, regardless of what is displayed on screen, so you see yourself get lock, but then it disappears a split-second later (Interference from Botty McMacro's warp..., etc.). Manually breaking safespots isn't feasible because they all fit cloaks or have armed POSes (in sov 0.0 areas). Like I said before, incredibly frustrating.
Kewso	Posted - 2010.12.15 06:35:00 - [355] I enjoy my macros, couple years ago after using a Nostromo N52 only way I'll ever play most games now is with macros. Automation is nice, can sit back and remove annoying keystrokes and helps release stress on wrists and such.
Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp Without Remorse.	Posted - 2010.12.15 06:57:00 - [356] Originally by: Kewso I enjoy my macros, couple years ago after using a Nostromo N52 only way I'll ever play most games now is with macros. Automation is nice, can sit back and remove annoying keystrokes and helps release stress on wrists and such. I can understand why you like to do such a thing, it can make the game more enjoyable until the game just ends up being a bunch of botters with a few rich people throwing cash around to rein supreme. What changes to game mechanics do you think would make it harder for a macro program to automate gameplay (less bots per computer)?
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.15 07:24:00 - [357] Originally by: Elzon1 Originally by: Kewso I enjoy my macros, couple years ago after using a Nostromo N52 only way I'll ever play most games now is with macros. Automation is nice, can sit back and remove annoying keystrokes and helps release stress on wrists and such. I can understand why you like to do such a thing, it can make the game more enjoyable until the game just ends up being a bunch of botters with a few rich people throwing cash around to rein supreme. What changes to game mechanics do you think would make it harder for a macro program to automate gameplay (less bots per computer)? whoosh I, too, love my G15 - was more useful before weapon grouping but even now macros are a real help while playing EVE.
Aylara	Posted - 2010.12.15 07:49:00 - [358] It's cheaper to tolerate the bots to a certain amount than to change the game mechanics.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.15 07:52:00 - [359] Originally by: Elzon1 Originally by: Kewso I enjoy my macros, couple years ago after using a Nostromo N52 only way I'll ever play most games now is with macros. Automation is nice, can sit back and remove annoying keystrokes and helps release stress on wrists and such. snip What changes to game mechanics do you think would make it harder for a macro program to automate gameplay (less bots per computer)? I posted something in a thread on bots in ideas discussion. Basically you need to remove repetitive static game play, remove easily recognizable names and tags and recognizable commands. Humans can easily distinguish between an unnamed asteroid of a vaguely different shape and size but a bot has trouble. Humans can learn and adapt to a npc ai that doesn't repeatedly behave in the same manner, a bot cannot learn. A human can easily learn to probe out an asteroid field while a bot benefits more from static asteroids. A human warping into a dynamically changing worlds collide mission can easily figure out how to get to the next stage, even if they have to visually find the the gate and navigate to it manually, rather then right click and approach gate. A bot cannot reason, its as likely to approach a gate that does nothing but send it out of the deadspace area as it is to approach the gate that takes it further in, if the reasoning to work out which gate is even slightly abstract. Get my drift? --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
Aylara	Posted - 2010.12.15 08:37:00 - [360] The easiest and cheapest move from CCP would be to let players police the bot-ing. 1. With the change regarding the learning skills, it's going to be easy to train an alt for killing hauling bots in low-sec. 2. Change the AI of the belt NPC's to use the Sleeper AI (tweak it to be easy to do it) and make all ships (or at least the frigates) scramble the ratting ship. Ratting bots will be easier to get caught; this will not stop the macro ratting, but at least will keep it under control. 3. The market bots. Here I have no idea, but these guys I really dislike since I don't want to / have time to waste it on PVE and my income comes from trading. I bet that you guys have also cheap and easy to do modifications against bot-ing.

Superpossee	Posted - 2010.12.15 10:23:00 - [361] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: You can start by telling your alliance bosses not to buy PLEX and ISKs of Chinese websites. RMT only works because some morons think they can buy everything. Stop buying it. Get your PLEX and ISK the way you want everyone else to get them - by playing the game - and stop thinking you have got nothing to do with it. Teaching people not to cheat is a very long term objective. This stance is totally simplicistic, it's the same as standing on a high horse and saying that people should stop committing crimes. O really? No way, those committing crimes don't give a BEEP about you preaching them to be good boys. In RL we get police to convince them, what do we get in EvE? In EvE what I have met is an endless stream of clueless GM that closely remind those overseas call centers. The players have to explain them the 101 of what happens and escalate the issue to GMs with a clue as soon as the problem requires an above chimpanze level knowledge. How can anyone expect they'll even bother or know how to properly alert the higher tiers of actual employees up the CCP food chain? The blog is a testament to this. It seems written by an alien. WE ARE FUC*ED EVERY DAY BY BOTS in a game that unlike the others: - is competitive - relies on an healthy economy - has no parachute mechanisms for RMT - is CHOKING FULL of easily botted activities - has dire consequences in case of loss. I lose a SC that took me 3 RL years to grind? I am BONED (the corp will help but the hurt IS here). A botter or - worse - a RMTer loses a SC? Yawn he'll have to log in one of his 20 other ones. How does this look in the flaunted competitive, pure PvP MMO? This SO MUCH
Rasz Lin Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.12.15 10:53:00 - [362] Edited by: Rasz Lin on 15/12/2010 10:55:02 Originally by: Aylara It's cheaper to tolerate the bots to a certain amount than to change the game mechanics. What do you mean "cheaper"? The bots are the ones PROVIDING INCOME for CCP. Every bot generates isk that later pays for 20-50 PLEXes per month. Bots enable people to pay for plex = they create demand for PLEX = CCP sells more PLEX. The only thing CCP doesnt like is competition from RTMers, but CCP LOVES bots. Last time they banned bots (unholy rage) PLEX price plummeted down as people didnt have ISK to buy plex = demand for PLEX dropped = incentive to buy PLEX from CCP in order to get ISK dropped = CCP lost money on the whole operation. They wont do it again.
Hueijin San Gallente Estrale Frontiers	Posted - 2010.12.15 11:11:00 - [363] "Remember, remember, the 5th of December, RMT traders and bots." Ben, can you complete the doggerel?
Tornan Minmatar Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.12.15 11:23:00 - [364] Originally by: Rasz Lin Edited by: Rasz Lin on 15/12/2010 10:55:02 Originally by: Aylara It's cheaper to tolerate the bots to a certain amount than to change the game mechanics. What do you mean "cheaper"? The bots are the ones PROVIDING INCOME for CCP. Every bot generates isk that later pays for 20-50 PLEXes per month. Bots enable people to pay for plex = they create demand for PLEX = CCP sells more PLEX. The only thing CCP doesnt like is competition from RTMers, but CCP LOVES bots. Last time they banned bots (unholy rage) PLEX price plummeted down as people didnt have ISK to buy plex = demand for PLEX dropped = incentive to buy PLEX from CCP in order to get ISK dropped = CCP lost money on the whole operation. They wont do it again. I dont understand your logic, if I buy plex with isk they make no money off me. If they removed plex I would have to buy the regular subscription, unless your saying that ccp generates more money by sselling isk.
Mernek	Posted - 2010.12.15 11:42:00 - [365] Originally by: Tornan Originally by: Rasz Lin Edited by: Rasz Lin on 15/12/2010 10:55:02 Originally by: Aylara It's cheaper to tolerate the bots to a certain amount than to change the game mechanics. What do you mean "cheaper"? The bots are the ones PROVIDING INCOME for CCP. Every bot generates isk that later pays for 20-50 PLEXes per month. Bots enable people to pay for plex = they create demand for PLEX = CCP sells more PLEX. The only thing CCP doesnt like is competition from RTMers, but CCP LOVES bots. Last time they banned bots (unholy rage) PLEX price plummeted down as people didnt have ISK to buy plex = demand for PLEX dropped = incentive to buy PLEX from CCP in order to get ISK dropped = CCP lost money on the whole operation. They wont do it again. I dont understand your logic, if I buy plex with isk they make no money off me. If they removed plex I would have to buy the regular subscription, unless your saying that ccp generates more money by sselling isk. They make no money directly from you, but that PLEX you bought is not seeded by CCP, it is bought from CCP by someone else and put on the market. PLEX is not necessarily used up at the time of purchase, it can be stockpiled, it has been stockpiled. More gametime is in circulation as a result of PLEX than if we just had regular subscriptions. Of course this is also a liability for CCP as there is always the possibilty of that PLEX gametime being used up at the expense of subscriptions later. Although if a few players are controlling the sales of PLEX, I doubt that would happen. Essentially there will be PLEX gametime on the servers long after they have been shutdown and we are all playing something else. That is why PLEX makes CCP more money than regular subscriptions.
Rasz Lin Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.12.15 11:47:00 - [366] Originally by: Tornan Originally by: Rasz Lin Edited by: Rasz Lin on 15/12/2010 10:55:02 Originally by: Aylara It's cheaper to tolerate the bots to a certain amount than to change the game mechanics. What do you mean "cheaper"? The bots are the ones PROVIDING INCOME for CCP. Every bot generates isk that later pays for 20-50 PLEXes per month. Bots enable people to pay for plex = they create demand for PLEX = CCP sells more PLEX. The only thing CCP doesnt like is competition from RTMers, but CCP LOVES bots. Last time they banned bots (unholy rage) PLEX price plummeted down as people didnt have ISK to buy plex = demand for PLEX dropped = incentive to buy PLEX from CCP in order to get ISK dropped = CCP lost money on the whole operation. They wont do it again. I dont understand your logic, if I buy plex with isk they make no money off me. If they removed plex I would have to buy the regular subscription, unless your saying that ccp generates more money by sselling isk. CCP tapped and monetized "Free to play" market with PLEX. Removing PLEX means losing huge chunk of EVE population. Remember that "Free to play + microtransaction" is becoming the norm. CCP can either somehow let those people participate in EVE (PLEX) or lose money .... or convert to microtransaction completely. CCP doesnt sell ISK, they sell PLEX. They will sell isk if/when they convert to microtransaction model.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.15 11:52:00 - [367] Originally by: Rasz Lin Last time they banned bots (unholy rage) Actually they never banned bots, unholy rage was to tackle RMT Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Mernek	Posted - 2010.12.15 11:58:00 - [368] Best way to look at it is by using unholy rage as an example. Rasz said ccp lost money and they won't do it again. We can show how they 'lost money' but whether they do it again is dependent upon how virtuous they are. I wrote above about the PLEX + subscription gametime being in excess of subscription gametime alone. I tried to explain how this selling of PLEX can therefore create at any one time a greater revenue for CCP than subscriptions alone. I also said that this is also somewhat of a liability as this gametime in the system could be used up at the expense of subscriptions. In a sense you can say that PLEX are an advance for CCP. SO, recap over, on to unholy rage. As Rasz said unholy rage banned a large number of botters, likely not those just involved in RMT. As a result the demand for PLEX fell. This is for 2 reasons. Firstly the bot accounts themselves are paid for with PLEX and secondly, the RMT isk is cheaper than PLEX isk (or there would be no RMT) so people were buying a bil for 20 dollars and buying 3 months of gametime in the form of PLEX. 3 times the gametime you can get legitimately. When the demand for plex fell, so did the price. This did two things, legitimate PLEX sellers stopped selling and more players started to fund their game time through PLEX. This eats into that giant liability CCP have, revenue per month fell and who knows maybe they were idiots and already spent the advance from the community. There will be people who cry at this and say that the increase in PLEX used after unholy rage should have caused a price increase. I'm sure it did, gradually, a little. But nowhere near as volatile as teh changes we saw due to removal of bots. I think that volatility shows just how many are at work here.
Mernek	Posted - 2010.12.15 12:03:00 - [369] Originally by: Rasz Lin Originally by: Tornan Originally by: Rasz Lin Edited by: Rasz Lin on 15/12/2010 10:55:02 Originally by: Aylara It's cheaper to tolerate the bots to a certain amount than to change the game mechanics. What do you mean "cheaper"? The bots are the ones PROVIDING INCOME for CCP. Every bot generates isk that later pays for 20-50 PLEXes per month. Bots enable people to pay for plex = they create demand for PLEX = CCP sells more PLEX. The only thing CCP doesnt like is competition from RTMers, but CCP LOVES bots. Last time they banned bots (unholy rage) PLEX price plummeted down as people didnt have ISK to buy plex = demand for PLEX dropped = incentive to buy PLEX from CCP in order to get ISK dropped = CCP lost money on the whole operation. They wont do it again. I dont understand your logic, if I buy plex with isk they make no money off me. If they removed plex I would have to buy the regular subscription, unless your saying that ccp generates more money by sselling isk. CCP tapped and monetized "Free to play" market with PLEX. Removing PLEX means losing huge chunk of EVE population. Remember that "Free to play + microtransaction" is becoming the norm. CCP can either somehow let those people participate in EVE (PLEX) or lose money .... or convert to microtransaction completely. CCP doesnt sell ISK, they sell PLEX. They will sell isk if/when they convert to microtransaction model. Bold part is a bit naive. RL cash --> GTC --> PLEX --> ISK is CCP selling isk, it's just got some extra steps so some smart arse lawyer doesnt start clamouring for us to start paying tax on our isk irl.
Aabis Jeasu	Posted - 2010.12.15 14:37:00 - [370] This game stopped being legit when they allowed people to hand over real money to become more powerful in game. What makes you think they would give a **** about bots at this point?

EvilFighter123	Posted - 2010.12.15 14:40:00 - [371] Grammar ****: You spelt fed wrong.
Aeronwen Carys	Posted - 2010.12.15 14:44:00 - [372] For god sake edit the title of this damned thread, its FED not feed. Got it?? F E D. you people **** me off.
EvilFighter123	Posted - 2010.12.15 14:47:00 - [373] Originally by: Aeronwen Carys For god sake edit the title of this damned thread, its FED not feed. Got it?? F E D. you people **** me off. THANK YOU FOR THE SUPPORT
Arugas Koken	Posted - 2010.12.15 23:14:00 - [374] Apparently the Eryan code has been acquired by CCP and is being looked at.
Mernek	Posted - 2010.12.15 23:41:00 - [375] I don't know what's more worrying, that they have only recently laid hands on it, or that someone in ccp told the brains behind the bots that they had.
Wartrec	Posted - 2010.12.16 12:04:00 - [376] In case one of you macro users did not read this.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.16 13:17:00 - [377] Seems like the patch yesterday and today has made people focus on other stuff. I guess if you need anything doing right, you have todo it yourself. Next Hulageddon in mid jan yeh? Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
OneTimeAt BannedSpank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.12.16 14:10:00 - [378] ~
Tornan Minmatar Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.12.16 15:28:00 - [379] wasnt CCP supposed to give an official response this week
Stratego Ad Infernum	Posted - 2010.12.16 15:35:00 - [380] Originally by: Tornan wasnt CCP supposed to give an official response this week Still a lot of time left of the week.

Commander Shipping	Posted - 2010.12.16 15:45:00 - [381] Edited by: Commander Shipping on 16/12/2010 15:45:55 Originally by: EvilFighter123 Originally by: Aeronwen Carys For god sake edit the title of this damned thread, its FED not feed. Got it?? F E D. you people ** me off. THANK YOU FOR THE SUPPORT It is about understanding the contents of the post, not about spelling/grammar. 3/4 of the players are not from UK/US, so why would they care about it?.. If i post a link to a picture with a fist that has a middle finger raised up, you will understand either you speak English or not. Internet is full of idiot s like you, who are using spelling/grammar as an argument. **
Soma Khan Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.16 15:50:00 - [382] Originally by: Aeronwen Carys For god sake edit the title of this damned thread, its FED not feed. Got it?? F E D. you people **** me off. apparently the owner of the thread got banned for rmt'ing, so there's no-one to fix the title. file a petition __
trollerii -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2010.12.16 16:03:00 - [383] Originally by: Aeronwen Carys For god sake edit the title of this damned thread, its FED not feed. Got it?? F E D. you people **** me off. Such an issue. The thread is incomprehensible because of an extra E in one of the words in the topic. People whining on things like this deserves to DIAF. OT: Gonna be interesting with a statement from CCP, RMT is never fun for us that actually play the game legit. -{Signature}- OvO -orly? hoot hoot m m
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.12.16 16:25:00 - [384] The GM blog on this is out, as you can see the issue is RMT and botting is something that is difficult to detect. DEVBLOG!! Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments ftw
Namira Incendie Minmatar Valor Enterprises	Posted - 2010.12.16 17:09:00 - [385] Edited by: Namira Incendie on 16/12/2010 17:09:23 Originally by: Kalle Demos The GM blog on this is out, as you can see the issue is RMT and botting is something that is difficult to detect. DEVBLOG!! Easy to detect, just look at the server resources usage from the Unholy Rage blog. It's hard to prove, but easy to detect. The smart ones wont have their main characters at risk at all, as all illegal activity is done remotely. Also that devblog is a horrid excuse for a response. It'd be better off as a forum post.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.12.17 11:13:00 - [386] Originally by: Kalle Demos The GM blog on this is out, as you can see the issue is RMT and botting is something that is difficult to detect. DEVBLOG!! It's not difficult. You could copy a protection scheme used by Autodesk 2 decades ago to weed off the "thin clients". You can also inspect system that have 1 zillion belt kills a day and zero PVP activity. Just with the two above they could get hundreds of bots a day. If they also implemented my suggestions posted in the previous pages this would even achieve much more. The worst result anyway is not being unable to defeat botters (they'll evolve over time) but the ambiguous at best messages that CCP sends to the player base. No other prominent MMO company seem so deaf and even complacent with botters like they do. The blog you linked is an hurriedly up made piece of PR, with no substance, no commitment, no sense of serious and well programmed engagement. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Rasz Lin Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.12.17 13:28:00 - [387] The problem was NEVER with detecting. Problem is of economic nature. CCP crunched the numbers after Unholy Rage, came to the conclusion they lost money and decided to focus on RTMing alts instead of macro. Read that blog again, not a word about macro being a problem. Only about RTM and how its competing with legal GTC sales. CCP is in business of making money, macros provide ISK that is used to buy PLEX, CCP likes to sell a lot of PLEX. Its that simple.
Silen Boon	Posted - 2010.12.17 15:27:00 - [388] The recent devblog, regarding this subject, suggested that CCPs focus was to stop RMTs. I think this is exceptionally unfair on the players who stick to the rules. The rules should be enforced regardless of CCPs preferences. RMTs and bots need to be treated as different issues. Both are against CCPs rules, and are tackled in different ways. Bots and Macros have a huge effect peoples game play. CCP needs to make it clear that using macroes is not acceptable, and people using them will be hunted down and banned. Sadly the devblog gave the impression that even if CCP suspect you were using a macro, they couldn't prove it.
Open Orifice	Posted - 2010.12.17 17:12:00 - [389] Man, I can hardly wait until I can buy Skill Points for real cash....
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2010.12.17 17:23:00 - [390] Originally by: Mernek Originally by: Rasz Lin CCP doesn't sell ISK, they sell PLEX. They will sell isk if/when they convert to micro transaction model. Bold part is a bit naive. RL cash --> GTC --> PLEX --> ISK is CCP selling isk, it's just got some extra steps so some smart arse lawyer doesn't start clamoring for us to start paying tax on our isk irl. CCP isn't selling isk. They're selling something that can be exchanged for isk through a self balancing game mechanic. The differences may be subtle but they are important, and not only for the reason you offered: 1st Isk is not created by the transaction, which would dilute the value of isk and fuel inflation. The isk exchanged for the plex already exists within the game and is owned by another player. 2nd By trading plex across a player market, there is no fixed $$$ to isk ratio. If plex for isk becomes too popular, you get fewer isk for your RL money. If grind to play becomes too popular, then it costs progressively more isk to play.

Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.17 21:18:00 - [391] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 17/12/2010 19:11:40 Originally by: Mernek Originally by: Rasz Lin CCP doesn't sell ISK, they sell PLEX. They will sell isk if/when they convert to micro transaction model. Bold part is a bit naive. RL cash --> GTC --> PLEX --> ISK is CCP selling isk, it's just got some extra steps so some smart arse lawyer doesn't start clamoring for us to start paying tax on our isk irl. CCP isn't selling isk. They're selling something that can be exchanged for isk through a self balancing game mechanic. The differences may be subtle but they are important, and not only for the reason you offered: 1st Isk is not created by the transaction, which would dilute the value of isk; fueling inflation and the need for still more isk. The isk exchanged for the plex already exists within the game and is owned by another player. 2nd By trading plex across a player market, there is no fixed $$$ to isk ratio. If plex for isk becomes too popular, you get fewer isk for your RL money. If grind to play becomes too popular, then it costs progressively more isk to play. I wouldn't phrase it as Mernek did but in essence CCP is selling isk, because the transaction happens the exact same way as someone paying $ to a RMT to get isk from another party the 'farmer'. The isk used to purchase a PLEX in game is made in nearly every way that the isk made to sell to another player for $ is at no time do RMT magically create isk from thin air on their own, CCP's progam does that when farmed by bots/macros. The only exception to the two methods is stealing isk from other accounts, it can and probably does happen when used for PLEX in the cases of corp theft, or for people who share login info etc but isn't significant compared to RMT operators who go after account data and try to see if people use the same info across communities/sites as their EVE account. The difference we 'hope' between the two is that the isk made to buy plex is done so w/o bots/macros but we don't know since CCP seems not to be interested in making it harder for people who use bots/macros they are more interested in the accounts who sell isk, however it is made, for real money. And we hope the $ that CCP gets goes to bettering EVE and CCP so they are 'strong' to do what needs to be done, but once CCP gets your money or mine they can and will do whatever the ** they want with it, from getting into the console market, looking at making EVE f2p with micro-transactions or making a vampire game. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--**
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2010.12.17 21:33:00 - [392] Hm, the dev blog basically confirms that CCP is only fighting RMT, not botting. That's sad. Quote: ISK is sold because people buy it. Players do business with the RMT element and that is why accounts are hacked, asteroid belts are sucked up by bots and it is why we find ourselves in our current situation. Sorry to say, but belts are sucked up by bots just as much, if not more, because people want free ISK to get ahead in the game or to buy PLEX. CCP could reduce the impact of botting without annoying players too much buy imposing a limit on the time spent mining or ratting per day. Very few sane people can or should mine/rat/mission more than 3-4 hours/day while bots do it 23/7. It takes some thought to work out how to implement such limits (for mining it's easy), but it should be done ... How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2010.12.17 22:41:00 - [393] Edited by: Baudolino on 17/12/2010 22:41:10 OP shamelessly copied and pasted a monologue from the movie V for Vendetta. The text is from the scene when V hijacks Britains national television signal to promote a national resistance on Guy Fawkes day - 5th November.. At least come up with something of your own- punk..
Lenore Leelu	Posted - 2010.12.18 01:20:00 - [394] Originally by: Eyeama Spy ccp are tackling the bot problem in 2 ways, the first is the xmas present on 14th dec...its an afk cloaked ship in every system in eve online 24/7, the second is incursions, which will target all high sec ice belt systems with reduced resists, sansha bombers to kill the bots in belts and gate camps on the exits. Merry xmas and a happy new year Uh oh, how will CCP/Sansha know who is a botter compared to my team of 3 macinaws and an orca legitimately mining (and generally being controlled by people all in the same room eating doritos)(ok the orca will be an alt, but definitely not macroed)? And I dont understand the cloaked ship thing you're talking about.
Dirk Swan	Posted - 2010.12.18 06:39:00 - [395] Just in case you macro users missed this article.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.12.18 06:50:00 - [396] Originally by: Baudolino Edited by: Baudolino on 17/12/2010 22:41:10 OP shamelessly copied and pasted a monologue from the movie V for Vendetta. The text is from the scene when V hijacks Britains national television signal to promote a national resistance on Guy Fawkes day - 5th November.. At least come up with something of your own- punk.. Good eye. My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.18 06:57:00 - [397] Edited by: Bhattran on 18/12/2010 06:59:12 Originally by: Professor Tarantula Originally by: Baudolino Edited by: Baudolino on 17/12/2010 22:41:10 OP shamelessly copied and pasted a monologue from the movie V for Vendetta. The text is from the scene when V hijacks Britains national television signal to promote a national resistance on Guy Fawkes day - 5th November.. At least come up with something of your own- punk.. Good eye. Not really, nearly 2 weeks later and someone thought enough to post about it, I noticed that fact when I first saw this but thought the discussion, given the context, was worth more than a movie reference at least to me. EDITED TO ADD: Rian O'Shea beat him to it with an image link regarding the Movie. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
SweetHoney	Posted - 2010.12.18 08:51:00 - [398] Edited by: SweetHoney on 18/12/2010 08:56:05 I did not read it all the pages but I just leave this article here http://evenews24.com/2010/12/08/rmt-uncovered-the-interview Linkage
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.18 10:57:00 - [399] Originally by: SweetHoney Edited by: SweetHoney on 18/12/2010 08:56:05 I did not read it all the pages but I just leave this article here http://evenews24.com/2010/12/08/rmt-uncovered-the-interview Linkage that series of articles (and the thread on the forum that must not be named that sparked this series) led to the creation of this thread in the first place. ^^
Meridian Siri	Posted - 2010.12.18 23:48:00 - [400] I had heard that CSM was meeting with CCP and that macroing was an issue that was on the agenda. Does anyone know when this is going to occur or have any links to information on said meeting?

Dante Marcellus Minmatar Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team	Posted - 2010.12.19 00:02:00 - [401] I AM FEED UP AS WELL. I just had taco bell. <<<< PaxCorpus This wasn't the road home -- This was a road littered with questions that would inevitably lead to an answer.

CCP Sreegs C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.19 01:10:00 - [402] Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least.

Aessoroz	Posted - 2010.12.19 01:21:00 - [403] Edited by: Aessoroz on 19/12/2010 01:21:35 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. O really? Have you been to Ingunn in the last 3 months? There's at least 200 macro industrials passing through it per hour and it's freaking low sec.
Janos Saal	Posted - 2010.12.19 01:42:00 - [404] posting without reading the thread If bots are so prevalent and easily identifiable as you people say, why not roll up some alts and form a corp that does nothing but kill botters? Hell, make an event out of it - Bottergeddon.
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2010.12.19 01:57:00 - [405] Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 19/12/2010 01:57:49 Originally by: Pan Crastus Hm, the dev blog basically confirms that CCP is only fighting RMT, not botting. That's sad. Quote: ISK is sold because people buy it. Players do business with the RMT element and that is why accounts are hacked, asteroid belts are sucked up by bots and it is why we find ourselves in our current situation. Sorry to say, but belts are sucked up by bots just as much, if not more, because people want free ISK to get ahead in the game or to buy PLEX. CCP could reduce the impact of botting without annoying players too much buy imposing a limit on the time spent mining or ratting per day. Very few sane people can or should mine/rat/mission more than 3-4 hours/day while bots do it 23/7. It takes some thought to work out how to implement such limits (for mining it's easy), but it should be done ... Then they have to limit the time player can spent in PvP too or how often they can scan the market or how many jumps a hauler can make peer day. Stupid sugestion.
capn gump ElitistOps Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.12.19 02:07:00 - [406] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, we banned Karttoon so no need to ban anyone else
lol internets North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.12.19 02:08:00 - [407] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. If that is the case then please explain to me the reasons you have not freed karttoon?
CapnKellTainer 54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry Kugutsumen.	Posted - 2010.12.19 02:47:00 - [408] Originally by: Janos Saal posting without reading the thread If bots are so prevalent and easily identifiable as you people say, why not roll up some alts and form a corp that does nothing but kill botters? Hell, make an event out of it - Bottergeddon. Bots read local and will log off/warp to a safespot if a neut or red enters local. You could do this, but only if every 0.0 system had a cloaky ship there 23/7.
Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp Without Remorse.	Posted - 2010.12.19 02:49:00 - [409] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. Interesting, so what sort of game mechanic changes/additions does CCP plan to inact to slow down botting? Will CCP finally balance isk creation with isk destruction (increasing isk production with an increase in trade proportionately as an exception of course)? When will the next set of CSM minutes be out on discussion of botting and rmt?
Rasz Lin Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.12.19 03:54:00 - [410] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. Subject is RTM _and_ botting. We know you care about RTM as it is competing with PLEX revenue, we also know you do not ban bots.

Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2010.12.19 04:55:00 - [411] Originally by: Jojo Jackson Then they have to limit the time player can spent in PvP too or how often they can scan the market or how many jumps a hauler can make peer day. Why do they have to limit the time spent in PVP? Please explain. Just because it "sounds the same" isn't a good reason. As for accessing the market - good idea, market botting is very common too. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2010.12.19 05:51:00 - [412] EVE is a source of income for CCP, only in case where CCP starts to suffer financially, it will assign a full task force with x-amount of employees, until than (CCP starts losing income), it will only put a few people in charge, without necessary means and methods to really do anything. What we're seeing here is a lame excuse, just to make believe something is getting done. No offense to CCP folks who were assigned the tasks to deal with RMT/MACROS/BOTTERS, but until higher up CCP management decides that you need to get something accomplished you're not really getting far. It's not the matter of your dedication and what you believe.
Opertone Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.19 08:15:00 - [413] you can declare war on bots... but killing bots does not generate enough resources, obviously. If only bots provided enough trophies to keep on killing more bots. As I imagine, they would bribe you and give you 500 mill isk to leave them in peace, would you resist that?
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.19 08:22:00 - [414] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. forums: CCP doesn't care. single dev: but I care! Yes, it makes sense that CCP's Security Administrator would care about RMT (and by extension botting) - anything else would actually be quite shocking considering that botting & RMT can both be related to the problem of account theft. and "not ignoring" a problem is not the same as "working hard on a solution to that problem". => it's nice to know you care, sadly from what we know you don't seem to have the discretionary power to make any decisions on assigning significant company resources to this effort/taking the risk of instantly losing a big chunk of revenue from account bans.
Keta Fraal Nul and Booleans	Posted - 2010.12.19 09:09:00 - [415] Originally by: Jaqel Broadside Actually if the account was verified and traceable then no fraud would be possible at all. Buying characters by what so ever means just promotes fraudulant activities. All character sales should be banned - they should be terminated and that's it. All accounts should be paid for by CASH via accepted means - any payment method which cannot be verified should be disabled. Quite frankly if this situation isnt sorted the people who do pay for the game will leave. I know because that is on the cards for accounts I pay as it will be for anyone else who realises they could do something more valuable with their time. There are no excuses any more,,, none what so ever. There is NO reason to even have these high ISK value NPCs at stastic sites,, neither is there a reason to have shpis like the Raven that dont require human input to survive. A radical rething is needed to stop this process now or there will be no game. I really dislike that part of human nature that loves being a cop, and where some of you draw your lines are extreme. "A radical rething is needed to stop this process now or there will be no game." What?! ...what? --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated.
mechtech Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.19 09:26:00 - [416] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. That's good to hear, I have a couple questions though. When is the client injection being patched? If you aren't able to answer that, are you at least aware that the most advanced bots use client injection, and are you working on making the client more secure from outside code? I'm not a botter nor a bot designer, so forgive me if my questions are a bit ignorant, but from taking a cursory look around it looks like the top bots are much "closer to metal" than should be allowed, due to presumably a lack of security in the client. I do know that the source code leaked a few years ago, so that might be making the job harder (?). What about a Warden/Punkbuster style program? Keep in mind there would be some community backlash, but this is very standard for MMOs, and even FPSs to implement to stop cheating. I think that an anti-cheat process that runs separately from the game, even a simple one, would make it much tougher to macro. The simple macros are basically recorded mouse movement, and the advanced ones use client injection. Both of these can be patched or detected much more easily if you have an anti-cheat process running outside of the client code.
Geanos Phoenix Tribe	Posted - 2010.12.19 09:48:00 - [417] For Christ sake, enough with this bull**** already. I've had enough with that attention seeking troll, with his "RMT confessions" crap and with this poor RL copy of a hysteria induced campaign. What do you expect from CCP? Details about what they are going to do with the client? Or the exact date of the future mass ban action? Yeah, not good, right?
Keta Fraal Nul and Booleans	Posted - 2010.12.19 10:32:00 - [418] No thank you to "Warden" and No to "Punkbuster". I don't want anything cluttering my memory. If you sorry chaps really are hurt by people mining 23.5/24 hrs than make it less of a grind and more along the lines of active decision making (the way PVP is active and intense). Use your imaginations. Mining is a grind and i do hope that somewhere in our distant future (circa 2424 A.D.) there is a way to automate it. So let's not get all up tight about it going on in eve. The only ones who should be ***ed about botting are those who mine or mission or what-not and figure their edge in isk-making is that they can handle boring grinding and it's in their interest to protect that advantage. But instead of being angry, instead of adding to the complexity by creating more rules, try solving the problem by consensus. It's not so serious that it's game-breaking. You should see some of the games out there; where players are walking through solid walls and unlimited HP and so on... I understand how we don't want to get anywhere near that kind of problem, but change the game away from the ugly grinds so the only ones botting are the ones who get caught RMT'ing. I'm only posting because I don't want to let some of the suggestions I read get adopted in game. Here is the botter's loophole in the EULA, under CONDUCT-A-3.: 3. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated.*
Shiptoaster	Posted - 2010.12.19 11:36:00 - [419] Botting has long since been legal in eve. RMT is not however. You get ISK deducted from your wallet and could be in the negative when you RMT
Shiptoaster	Posted - 2010.12.19 11:40:00 - [420] Edited by: Shiptoaster on 19/12/2010 11:40:16 Originally by: Keta Fraal No thank you to "Warden" and No to "Punkbuster". I don't want anything cluttering my memory. minging bots blargh i'm stupid blargh lol u stupid mining botter, there are ratting bots to you know. no one is gonna read your post

Fvr Pvpr	Posted - 2010.12.19 12:09:00 - [421] Botting is the only way this game works. GMs in alliances can only donate so much magic ISK.
Linistitul	Posted - 2010.12.19 12:21:00 - [422] ^^ Hey, I too can create fresh alts to post on forums!
Batolemaeus Caldari Money Liberation Services Corp	Posted - 2010.12.19 14:11:00 - [423] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. The amount of bots I've seen on my roams through the drone regions, lowsec and highsec speak volumes about your commitment. Put some meat on the table. How many non-rmt aligned bots have you been banning per region / security level? How many courier macros in magnates? How many market bots? How many courier mission bots in industrials, and how does the QEN look like with them factored out of the statistic? How many drone region macro renter corps have you dropped the hammer on? What's your average time between character creation / discovery / banning? How much isk have you confiscated from the main accounts of known botters? Why did PI hit tq when it was clear that the only way to do PI was with a macro and with functional macros appearing less than 30 minutes after it hit sisi? Why does game design continue to create extremely macro friendly content? Quo vadis, CCP?
Erica Lundell	Posted - 2010.12.19 14:54:00 - [424] Edited by: Erica Lundell on 19/12/2010 14:55:06 Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. The amount of bots I've seen on my roams through the drone regions, lowsec and highsec speak volumes about your commitment. Put some meat on the table. How many non-rmt aligned bots have you been banning per region / security level? How many courier macros in magnates? How many market bots? How many courier mission bots in industrials, and how does the QEN look like with them factored out of the statistic? How many drone region macro renter corps have you dropped the hammer on? What's your average time between character creation / discovery / banning? How much isk have you confiscated from the main accounts of known botters? Why did PI hit tq when it was clear that the only way to do PI was with a macro and with functional macros appearing less than 30 minutes after it hit sisi? Why does game design continue to create extremely macro friendly content? Quo vadis, CCP? Why the avoidance of mining being updated to be interactive ? Why the avoidance of missions being updated ? How come the CSM hasn't raised this as an issue since day 1 of it's existance ? How come High Sec keeps being nerfed ? How can we have over 400 titans in the game and have mineral prices at their lowest ? It wasn't long ago that building 1 Titan was a real struggle, now it's a peice of cake. PI was a joke - and you were told during it's testing on SiSi it was botters heaven. I was reading only a few days ago how people were looking to bot anomalies in carriers because they were "bored" of the content. CCP do you even know who your customers are ?
Mazzarins Demise Profit Development and Research Association	Posted - 2010.12.19 15:06:00 - [425] I've been working on a mini UI change proposal involving the wallet. I spent the last day or two photoshopping everything and it all looks pretty sweet. I'm wondering if it would be wiser to post the idea in this topic, rather than start a new one. What do you think Akita, or anyone for that matter . _________________________________________
Reediculouhs	Posted - 2010.12.19 17:47:00 - [426] It's not a mystery folks. CCP wants profit. Profit comes in the form of active accounts. Ask yourself if you were making thousands of dollars would you ban those people for playing your "game"? /nievity off
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2010.12.19 18:09:00 - [427] Originally by: Reediculouhs It's not a mystery folks. CCP wants profit. Profit comes in the form of active accounts. Ask yourself if you were making thousands of dollars would you ban those people for playing your "game"? /nievity off Active bots accounts bring CCP money - true, there may be plenty of BOTS and Macros that are used to gain in game isk and not for RMT purposes. RMT takes income from CCP so they fights it, the first one does not. The only turning point I can see if more and more players are getting annoyed by unfair advantage given to people who use BOTs and Macros, in comparison if a tech II fitted ship may take someone 3-4 hour to earn, a BOT doesn't have to waste the time in front of the PC. This may result in big amount of subscription lost for CCP, only then they will act on it. It seems the turning point for Botting and Macros is just now turning into a plague for EVE, if CCP loses credibility with player base for their inaction with BOTs and Macros it may very well be a start of decline of their subscription base. 54k people online right now means nothing, this can change any day. Also, CCP's fight on RMT is only aimed to punish players who RMT from isk sellers, they give them warning and duduct the isk - by that they are preserving their right to collect money on GTC market and only worry about their profit. Yet for ISK sellers a banned account is nothing, they can open many new ones and still go on using those army of bots, which btw still brings CCP income - so they are still not losing much. If CCP is worried about banning players with Bots and MAcros I think 1 warning before BAN should do, to stop normal, non isk sellers to stop using them.
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2010.12.19 18:22:00 - [428] I have at one time started a topic on using similar program to punkbuster for eve. 100% of responses were negative, everyone hates etc, it can be easily defeated, too many problems and horrible experiences with punkbuster. But i'm sure there should be other ways for CCP to check for bots. For example, anyone suspected of using bots can have a pop op screen, with random questions, or 1st grade puzzles each time random, that no bot can defeat, display to them. If someone is botting and sitting in front of PC, than this won't work, but for those that are afk with bots it sure will. There must be other creative ways to deal with bots and macros too.
Darth McDarth	Posted - 2010.12.19 18:53:00 - [429] Does this remind anyone else of the Red Scare that happened in America? Couple people say that there's Communists, all of a sudden everyone's a Commie. Bot's weren't an issue until evenews ran those articles, all of a sudden they're killing the game and ruining the economy. No one was complaining before the article. Seems like a bunch of hype. Mainly I want it to go away because ITS ****ING SPELLED FED. JUST FIX THE TITLE FFS.
Keta Fraal Nul and Booleans	Posted - 2010.12.19 18:53:00 - [430] According to certain prominent "botter" sites(ahem), CCP does issue 3-day and 7-day suspensions along with ISK corrections for breaking the EULA. There is significant pressure related by botters on their forums relevant to CCP actions,and those who post on those forums are careful to discourage RMTs. The open discussions on this thread are certainly sending a strong message to anyone out there who might otherwise foolishly ***-off the normal players. I think my point is that botting is a black market type of activity that will always be around. And while tolerance is not productive to a good game, we need to be careful not to police players for the sake of policing. I don't want to have botting affect my gaming through undue changes in mechanics that target free play. Let's change game mechanics in a progressive manner towards game play. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated.*

Keta Fraal Nul and Booleans	Posted - 2010.12.19 18:57:00 - [431] Originally by: Darth McDarth No one was complaining before the article. Seems like a bunch of hype. Mainly I want it to go away because ITS **ING SPELLED FED. JUST FIX THE TITLE FFS. LOL. the most prominent thread on the forums has an idiot's typo (or actual misspelling). I think the mistake in the title *es me off more than the subject matter. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated.*
Reediculouhs	Posted - 2010.12.19 19:07:00 - [432] Everyone should read that article linked above somewhere and see what a full time botter says about CCP. He laughs at them! The bottom line is that CCP can't stop botting completely, they can only catch 1 or 2. It is the plague of MMOs and there is no way around it...period!
Vertisce Soritenshi O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.19 19:12:00 - [433] Everytime I see this threads title I get hungry. Sig.Learning skills vote.
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2010.12.19 19:17:00 - [434] Originally by: Reediculouhs It is the plague of MMOs and there is no way around it...period! True on MMOs, but somehow I'd like to think EVE is different, and CCP is able to come out on top more efficiently than others.
Opertone Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.19 19:35:00 - [435] games are ruined by botting it is the same if someone printed hard currency at home... or if I made fraudulent 10 000 000 USD accounts for myself (because I can) It will bring the financial system to a collapse, gameplay to deterioration and criminal mafia-like alliances, that make MMO miserable.
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.19 19:39:00 - [436] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. Read but not 100% believed, as you neglect to mention botting/macroing as CCP has been careful to make the distinction that you fight RMT and that violating the EULA is 'bad' but don't clearly say botting/macroing is 'bad' or that botting/macroing without RMT is still bad as CCP has so concisely linked RMT with botting as if they are the exact same thing. The position we see here on the forums and ingame reasserts the assumption/presumption that CCP doesn't care, being clear that you do and saying so without dancing around the subject as the dev blog does and more importantly the forum responses have in the past, as does your own 'the subject' no mention of botting/macros, along with a REAL devblog on what you are doing about botting/macros and providing some data beyond anti RMT ops and implying that RMT+botting are one in the same because we 'know' you work against RMT and as part of that get botters/macros. We also see what CCP aren't doing and when CCP won't say clearly that botting/macro use isn't permitted in the context of which we speak in this thread or allowed as part of playing the game you show us that you "don't care". I tend to imagine individual employees of CCP DO care, at least the ones who do the 'real' work but are constrained and limited to what they can and can't do, what projects they undertake by their 'superiors' and other high-ups who make the final decisions. That is MY optimistic view of the situation that things aren't done one way or another because it isn't up to the people who do the work to make the choices on what to add/work-on/fix/etc but I could be wrong, that's MY assumption. Maybe everyone over in CCP land is in unanimous agreement on how things are approached/worked on beyond the surface level that most people have to demonstrate as part of a 'team'/work environment once a direction is chosen, maybe not, I don't know. If this, dev blog, forum responses, lack of action against what would 'have' to be bots or extremely rich and thickheaded players sending their characters to get blown up over and over hour after hour, day after day, etc, is the 'best' CCP can do to convey the message that CCP is doing something/does care it falls on deaf ears, at least for me. I took offense that the devblog was the 'best' CCP could muster to address this 'subject' and barely mentions botting, provides no real information, and tempts me to 'lock it for no content' had I the power, but the opportunity to call a spade a spade is too great and it is just another example of how CCP hasn't handled this issue 'correctly' if they cared to do so. I hope the CSM has more luck in getting information from CCP during the next meeting, and one of several questions I'd like answered from a pure WTF POV is why CCP GM/DEV/etc won't say flat out that using macros or bots to play the game for you when you aren't at your client/without your being present is against the EULA and you will get banned, IF THAT IS THE CASE, because honestly I'm not sure and haven't seen a response from CCP clearing it up. Instead CCP respond to said inquires with re-posting the section of the EULA about macros which is vague and/or talk about RMT and banning players when RMT may have never been brought up or even be relevant. TLDR: Happy holidays. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2010.12.19 20:06:00 - [437] Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: CCP Sreegs stuff stuff I recall seeing somewhere that using a third party software to gains you an unfair advantage over other players is illegal, so BOTs and Macros are illegal, it's just isn't much CCP want to do about, what about try? You did say something that I agree with, and I also mentioned it in my earlier posts about people working on this issue will not advance until their superiors decide they need to advance. I think a lot of front faces for CCP have a passion about the game, and try, but again without proper resource dedication from upper management nothing is getting done.
Keta Fraal Nul and Booleans	Posted - 2010.12.19 20:52:00 - [438] Originally by: Miss President Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: CCP Sreegs stuff stuff I recall seeing somewhere that using a third party software to gains you an unfair advantage over other players is illegal, so BOTs and Macros are illegal, it's just isn't much CCP want to do about, what about try? You did say something that I agree with, and I also mentioned it in my earlier posts about people working on this issue will not advance until their superiors decide they need to advance. I think a lot of front faces for CCP have a passion about the game, and try, but again without proper resource dedication from upper management nothing is getting done. EULA-CONDUCT-A-3. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated.
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.19 21:45:00 - [439] Originally by: Miss President Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: CCP Sreegs stuff stuff I recall seeing somewhere that using a third party software to gains you an unfair advantage over other players is illegal, so BOTs and Macros are illegal, it's just isn't much CCP want to do about, what about try? You did say something that I agree with, and I also mentioned it in my earlier posts about people working on this issue will not advance until their superiors decide they need to advance. I think a lot of front faces for CCP have a passion about the game, and try, but again without proper resource dedication from upper management nothing is getting done. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. Underline=Macro/bot talk Bold=Client Hack or 'lite client' creation depending on how they are implemented It can be interpreted as meaning if you A) Hack the client (it specifically mentions modifying it) or B) Are able to acquire 'benefits' at 'an accelerated rate' then it is 'game illegal' but CCP haven't ever expanded on that AFAIK. If you run a macro and don't hack the client in any way you're fine right? and if your macro/bot doesn't gain you anything at an accelerated rate, ie 'it' rats/missions/mines/whatever at the same rate a human would do those things you are 'fine' too because they don't violate 'ordinary game play' right, since it would work exactly as if you were there doing it. The 'argument' CCP hasn't made is that the use of such a program is 'at an accelerated rate' over 'normal' play or that playing for 23.5 hours a day is 'an accelerated rate' where has CCP what 'an accelerated rate' is?, The answer is they haven't they (CCP employess) post that bit or refer to it as if there were no loopholes or other ways it could be read/interpreted and clearly there are. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2010.12.19 22:09:00 - [440] Originally by: Erica Lundell How come the CSM hasn't raised this as an issue since day 1 of it's existance ? Not a huge coincidence, in my opinion. People get on the CSM by getting large groups of players behind them, and any large organized group of players in this game seems to either passively or actively benefit from botting. I'm pretty pro-CSM generally, but just like with politicians, one always has to remember who they really work for.

Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.19 22:20:00 - [441] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 19/12/2010 22:21:31 the 'accelerated rate' has mainly been used to explain why having a G15 keyboard macro for F1-F8 is ok (you still have to sit in front of the screen, you only save yourself a little effort but don't get any tangible in-game benefits) but more complex macros are not. think of a continuum with G15-style macros on the one end, autohotkey in the middle and full-blown bots (that rely on simulating user input, reading game data from the screen) on the other end. You cannot restrict usage of the "simple multi-keystroke"-type of macros (and why would you want to?) but you don't want people to use pretty much anything more complex. So you need some clause that enables you to draw a line between "good" and "bad" macros and that is fuzzy enough to allow for interpretation on a case-by-case basis (fuzziness also protects against players trying to game the EULA thinking they have found a loophole).
Reediculouhs	Posted - 2010.12.20 02:19:00 - [442] Is there a way possibly to make macro capable keyboards incompatible with EvE?
alittlebirdy	Posted - 2010.12.20 04:12:00 - [443] They cant make the server stay up DT to DT... you think botting is something they are worried about? lol ya right.
Target Painter	Posted - 2010.12.20 04:26:00 - [444] Originally by: Erica Lundell How can we have over 400 titans in the game and have mineral prices at their lowest ? It wasn't long ago that building 1 Titan was a real struggle, now it's a peice of cake. Insurance nerf. Before that insurance kept mineral prices artifically high.
Reediculouhs	Posted - 2010.12.20 07:09:00 - [445] So your saying minerals are cheaper because of increased botting and mining bots?
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2010.12.20 07:38:00 - [446] I'd like to see CCP's estimated percentage of botting accounts among the active players shown at login ... My estimate is: more than 50%. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2010.12.20 07:46:00 - [447] Originally by: alittlebirdy They cant make the server stay up DT to DT... you think botting is something they are worried about? lol ya right. A bot probably causes as much, if not more lag than 10 real players... So yes, they are probably worried about it. They probably introduced the scanner delay specifically because of bots scanning all the time and causing lag. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.20 07:53:00 - [448] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 20/12/2010 07:53:59 Originally by: CCP Spitfire Furthermore, what the OP has stated is simply not true - macroing is illegal, bad and will land you in trouble. Linkage yet another epic fail by CCP (I am not talking about moderation, i.e. the decision to lock that thread, just about the policy statement quoted above). so ... forum users say: "hey running macros without engaging in RMT won't get you banned." CCP representative shows up and says: macroing is illegal - that's almost certainly wrong, it is against the ToS/EULA (which might or might not stand up to legal scrutiny) but good luck trying to find an explanation how macroing itself is illegal in any civilized jurisdiction. bad - lol? unspecific blanket statement (crucially missing the "for whom" part - bad for me? bad for the game? bad for CCP's coffers? seems like it is bad because it is bad, great point.) to which the only reaction can be "who cares?" and will land you in trouble. - yet another extremely unspecific statement. Will land me in "trouble" with CCP? Will land me in trouble because the botting program could steal my login credentials or important RL information? will land me in trouble because mom will get really angry once she sees the electricity bill for running several computers 24/7 in her basement? will land me in trouble because the police might come over for a visit? (that's the context in which I have seen this expression mostly used). in short - CCP Spitfire does a really great job at confirming the claims he tries(?) to debunk. Originally by: CCP Spitfire Furthermore, what the OP has stated is simply not true - macroing is illegal, bad and will land you in trouble. Originally by: CCP Spitfire Furthermore, what the OP has stated is simply not true - macroing is against the ToS/EULA, hurts the in-game economy and will get you banned from this game. so hard? why???
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.20 08:12:00 - [449] Originally by: Reediculouhs So your saying minerals are cheaper because of increased botting and mining bots? they certainly are cheaper in relative and probably in absolute terms. (mining bots -> cheap minerals, ratting bots -> increased price level)
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact	Posted - 2010.12.20 08:48:00 - [450] So would putting all the minerals into grav sites and eliminating belts, and making it so that there are two to four grav sites per system fix the macro mining, or would the macro'ers just find a way to program their macros to scan as well? Originally by: Samuel Langhorne Clemens I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.

Reign Down Minmatar X-ORE	Posted - 2010.12.20 09:14:00 - [451] The penalty for botting is not severe enough. CCP needs to be more harsh when it comes to punishing those who cheat...a week ban simply does not make them stop botting. If someone gets caught using a macro they should be banned for a month, all of their assets get seized and isk taken away. Get caught a 2nd time...perma ban. ______________________________________________________
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.12.20 10:40:00 - [452] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 20/12/2010 10:43:47 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. Dear CCP Sreegs, when CCP issued Unholy Rage, the related QEN showed what kind of handicaps the bots were imposing upon the game, the CPU resource occupied, the numbers of them being squashed and so on. This was a GREAT transparency act but as usual it became a double edged sword. In fact now we have official terms of reference to gauge what's being done. By those same terms, I can safely state that your "caring" at the moment is producing little tangible effects, effects we could SEE when Unholy Rage happened. I.E. I started as miner and still have my hearth about miners so I follow them a lot. I have some systems under my eyes, expecially ice mining ones, I actually gather data over the months about them. I can safely say that the day after Unholy Rage the "players" dropped by 70-80%. In One Day. It took them 3-4 months to recover but they DID recover. Now, I am too old to believe it's natural phenomenon seeing ice miners drop by 70-80% overnight and then magically recover to pre-Unholy Rage numbers because ice mining suddenly became more appealing. Even now that ice mining fell in profitability under the shoes, the same pre-Unholy Rage numbers are back in there and since a year. So how is this fitting with your "just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything" when I can see and meausure a distinct lack of anything being done? What about making something happen again that we can see and believe? Unholy Rage was seen, it had consequences everyone could see and even measure. Now, despite the claims, we are NOT seeing anything we can see and believe. This makes your statements and also the dev blog sound like empty and mild. Quote: The penalty for botting is not severe enough. CCP needs to be more harsh when it comes to punishing those who cheat...a week ban simply does not make them stop botting. If someone gets caught using a macro they should be banned for a month, all of their assets get seized and isk taken away. This too. Blizzard blocks the money purchaser account and he has to subject to countless tortures and ordalies before being re-enabled, taking weeks and weeks of pain. THIS IS THE ONLY FACT THEY WILL UNDERSTAND: to get a so annoying recovery that they will cringe in fear of being subjected to it. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Tub Chil	Posted - 2010.12.20 11:07:00 - [453] Probably someone already said that but.... CCP can't stop botting as long as mining/ratting/missioning is as DUMB and REPETITIVE as it is now. it really looks like mining and PVE is SPECIFICALLY MADE for bots. minimum intelligence maximum repetition. mission after mission, belt after belt same thing over and over again. With 0 brains and imagination needed from player. So, CCP, change PVE, change mining and you can fix botting problem. and guess what, you will greatly improve game quality too
Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.12.20 11:19:00 - [454] Originally by: Tub Chil minimum intelligence Ouch I've got little faith in CCP banning many more macros, I re visited a system not so long ago and there were more ice miners than pre-unholy rage. I think it would be safe to say 95% in that system were at an ice belt in NPC corps with completely random names, working like drones flying back and forth completely unresponsive to bumping and smack talk. There is no way these are all real players, CCP have either got lazy or have a reason for not doing anything.
Idris alDin	Posted - 2010.12.20 11:25:00 - [455] I just love how every single ratter in NS in the ass-ends of eve regions completely disappear, cloaked up, without fail within seconds of you jumping into a system. How obvious can it get? Petition to CCP... "Thank you for your concern blah blah.." --------
Superpossee	Posted - 2010.12.20 11:40:00 - [456] Edited by: Superpossee on 20/12/2010 11:40:59 CCP doesnt care about botters because they fund their cheating-accounts with plexes bought by real players? I hope this is not true. The amount of plexes might go down if botting was impossible because the prices would be lower due to less buyers but considering that the plex-system was intended to prevent RMT this is exactly the effect it should have. Plus if you say CCP has to think about profit, what does CCP want? A sound game with a healthy market and ressource-system that attracts people from MMOs that dont have any balance -> constantly new players and new subscriptions OR a small community of bitter vets with a high amount of bot-accounts feeding the game's imbalance? You can only buy plexes as long as there are real players putting them into the game. If those players stop playing the plex-argument will be nonsense.
bucktooth Caldari Ghost Data Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr	Posted - 2010.12.20 11:47:00 - [457] 3. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. This in the EULA means ccp should do something.
Sonjaa VII	Posted - 2010.12.20 13:05:00 - [458] Here's my contribution : from http://reboot.gr/index.php?topic=2019.30 to http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/2148/42583639.jpg. Do you think Sirenje will get away with it ? T.
Telarmore	Posted - 2010.12.20 13:08:00 - [459] Originally by: bucktooth 3. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. This in the EULA means ccp should do something. Actually, if you read that clause it seems broken. What if you had a bot that did exactly what you normally did (therefore ordinary game play)? As long your bot didn't gain stuff faster than a human player, that clause doesn't seem cover it. Now if it mentioned unattended or automate somewhere, that would be different. As it stands, it looks more like an anti-cheating/hacking clause than an anti-automation clause.
QT McWhiskers EdgeGamers Covenant of Prophecy	Posted - 2010.12.20 13:12:00 - [460] Im sorry if this has already been posted, I tried to read most of the thread but went into tl:dr mode around page 9ish. If CCP is serious about battling the RMT on their game, then I seriously hope they do not implement some kind of autoban system. Other game companies tried this with their online games, and then had to stop their usage because literally THOUSANDS of players were complaining of being banned by mistake. Fifty, maybe even a hundred people would be considered crying cheaters, but thousands. Nuh uh. The most notable instance of this, was when Squre Enix unleashed a bot tracker literally named RMTPWNR. It banned over 15000 accounts in a month. Of those 2200 were overturned because of people unjustly banned. Then next month thousands more were banned and a significant percentage of those accounts had to be unbanned. To keep this on topic. If CCP decides to go after RMT hardcore, then please don't start banning indiscriminately. Actions like SE's were one of the major causes of people leaving the game permanently.

Carniflex StarHunt R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.12.20 16:30:00 - [461] Originally by: QT McWhiskers Im sorry if this has already been posted, I tried to read most of the thread but went into tl:dr mode around page 9ish. If CCP is serious about battling the RMT on their game, then I seriously hope they do not implement some kind of autoban system. Other game companies tried this with their online games, and then had to stop their usage because literally THOUSANDS of players were complaining of being banned by mistake. Fifty, maybe even a hundred people would be considered crying cheaters, but thousands. Nuh uh. The most notable instance of this, was when Squre Enix unleashed a bot tracker literally named RMTPWNR. It banned over 15000 accounts in a month. Of those 2200 were overturned because of people unjustly banned. Then next month thousands more were banned and a significant percentage of those accounts had to be unbanned. To keep this on topic. If CCP decides to go after RMT hardcore, then please don't start banning indiscriminately. Actions like SE's were one of the major causes of people leaving the game permanently. TBH I would swallow some false positives if the system would get real bots reliably enough as well. Even considering that with the number of accounts I happen to have active the system would prolly just nuke me for a start from orbit. It's the only way to be sure ;) However after going through the process of proving that I am real human I would presumably be unbanned and flagged as 'real human' for a little while. Perhaps those 'thousands' were actually botters as well, just the casual ones. And from the other hand about 90 % bot detection accuracy is not that bad for a automated system.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2010.12.20 17:02:00 - [462] Originally by: Telarmore Actually, if you read that clause it seems broken. What if you had a bot that did exactly what you normally did (therefore ordinary game play)? As long your bot didn't gain stuff faster than a human player, that clause doesn't seem cover it. Now if it mentioned unattended or automate somewhere, that would be different. As it stands, it looks more like an anti-cheating/hacking clause than an anti-automation clause. It does seem broken, but can be seen to be OK if you look at it this way: Imagine running a race between a human and a somewhat inefficient bot. If the race ran for a hour or two, the human would win, being more efficient. Now run the race for 2 weeks. The human will have to stop for food, sleep, work, school, etc. The bot now wins, and hence is a EULA violation.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2010.12.20 17:41:00 - [463] Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium So would putting all the minerals into grav sites and eliminating belts, and making it so that there are two to four grav sites per system fix the macro mining, or would the macro'ers just find a way to program their macros to scan as well? The complex ones will scan. The simple ones: The bot owner would scan, then set the bot to mining the grav site while he went to sleep. This idea would slow them down, a little. But it also slows down players, which raises mineral prices, which makes mining more profitable for both players and the bots. Result: the bots still out compete the players. What we need are changes that are good for players and bad for bots.
Telarmore	Posted - 2010.12.20 20:03:00 - [464] Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: Telarmore Actually, if you read that clause it seems broken. What if you had a bot that did exactly what you normally did (therefore ordinary game play)? As long your bot didn't gain stuff faster than a human player, that clause doesn't seem cover it. Now if it mentioned unattended or automate somewhere, that would be different. As it stands, it looks more like an anti-cheating/hacking clause than an anti-automation clause. It does seem broken, but can be seen to be OK if you look at it this way: Imagine running a race between a human and a somewhat inefficient bot. If the race ran for a hour or two, the human would win, being more efficient. Now run the race for 2 weeks. The human will have to stop for food, sleep, work, school, etc. The bot now wins, and hence is a EULA violation. I can sort of see your point, but the clause specifically mentions rate, and never mentions a time period to measure the rate over. The odd time is, the clause would ban macros if you took out all the stuff about earning at an accelerated rate compared to regular gameplay. As it stands, it apparently allows them, as long as it only as good as a human.
Meridian Siri	Posted - 2010.12.21 01:42:00 - [465] Concur. Rate can be seen as an aggregate over any time period. For the sort term, bot -vs- human rates are comparable. Over the long haul when you have interuptions for (take your pick); 1) biological functions, 2) family, 3) work, 4) sex (if you are so inclined), the bot will win the race. You see, the bot doesn't care if it is "getting some" ..... or do they?
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2010.12.21 02:09:00 - [466] Telarmore you give the word "rapid" FAR to much weight. Originally by: bucktooth 3. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. This in the EULA means ccp should do something.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2010.12.21 02:17:00 - [467] Originally by: QT McWhiskers If CCP is serious about battling the RMT on their game, then I seriously hope they do not implement some kind of autoban system. Other game companies tried this with their online games, and then had to stop their usage because literally THOUSANDS of players were complaining of being banned by mistake. Fifty, maybe even a hundred people would be considered crying cheaters, but thousands. Nuh uh. Every major game has 1000s of cheaters/bots ... And yes, they will complain. As far as EVE is concerned, the bots probably make up a large chunk of the "concurrent players" now, so CCP will be reluctant to ban them all. It would look very bad if those 40-50K numbers suddenly dropped to the real number of players, which is probably somewhere around 20-30K. Same reason why they don't kick idle players (taking up precious bandwidth and other resources) like every other game out there... How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Typhis Deterious Crista Research	Posted - 2010.12.21 03:27:00 - [468] Originally by: Kara Sharalien Edited by: Kara Sharalien on 06/12/2010 00:06:18 In this wall of text showdown, WHO WILL WIN? Riverini, of Majesta Empire, got the jump on our challenger, Cyrus Doul, and has surpassed all expecations in the area of atrocious spelling. HOWEVER, Cyrus has demonstrated considerable technique, and none could contest that his text is even more densely compacted and unreadable then his opponent, who made the critical fumble of including one paragraph break per three paragraphs! This is sure to be an interesting matchup, back to you in the studio John! Thanks Kara! Up next: Lemming out of here! Bots lead into a wormhole until it collapses. Film at 11! [url="http://www.trinitynova.co.uk"
Nvermind Native Freshfood	Posted - 2010.12.21 06:33:00 - [469] I endorse a change to the mechanics that mean mining is not so easily macroed. Last time I checked I perform 10-15 actions to undock, lock roids, mine, dock, empty cargohold, repeat. Jesus not even to get rid of the bots, just to make it bearable for a bunch of ADHD internet spaceship nerds! - Missioner - miner - all round nice guy -
Dr Nefarius	Posted - 2010.12.21 07:15:00 - [470] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: QT McWhiskers Im sorry if this has already been posted, I tried to read most of the thread but went into tl:dr mode around page 9ish. If CCP is serious about battling the RMT on their game, then I seriously hope they do not implement some kind of autoban system. Other game companies tried this with their online games, and then had to stop their usage because literally THOUSANDS of players were complaining of being banned by mistake. Fifty, maybe even a hundred people would be considered crying cheaters, but thousands. Nuh uh. The most notable instance of this, was when Squre Enix unleashed a bot tracker literally named RMTPWNR. It banned over 15000 accounts in a month. Of those 2200 were overturned because of people unjustly banned. Then next month thousands more were banned and a significant percentage of those accounts had to be unbanned. To keep this on topic. If CCP decides to go after RMT hardcore, then please don't start banning indiscriminately. Actions like SE's were one of the major causes of people leaving the game permanently. TBH I would swallow some false positives if the system would get real bots reliably enough as well. Even considering that with the number of accounts I happen to have active the system would prolly just nuke me for a start from orbit. It's the only way to be sure ;) However after going through the process of proving that I am real human I would presumably be unbanned and flagged as 'real human' for a little while. Perhaps those 'thousands' were actually botters as well, just the casual ones. And from the other hand about 90 % bot detection accuracy is not that bad for a automated system. Having a bot detection program in eve with 90% accuracy would end the botting problems. Just as long as they don't use the result to ban people immediatly, but instead put them on a watchlist so a senior gm can observe and pass judgment on them. Fight fire with fire.

Opertone Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.21 08:25:00 - [471] Originally by: Tub Chil Probably someone already said that but.... CCP can't stop botting as long as mining/ratting/missioning is as DUMB and REPETITIVE as it is now. it really looks like mining and PVE is SPECIFICALLY MADE for bots. minimum intelligence maximum repetition. mission after mission, belt after belt same thing over and over again. With 0 brains and imagination needed from player. So, CCP, change PVE, change mining and you can fix botting problem. and guess what, you will greatly improve game quality too You are right. Now, this is why treasure hunting is what I did in 2006. Explore low sec, avoid pirates (xciting), look for commander Rats, trade channel, profit. Now treasure hunting is less attractive, nothing of value is to be found, expeditions and cosmic sites are well detailed and milked by a select few. Eve needs more opportunities of making wealth, by looking for it. Right now wealth is gained by countless repetitions.
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2010.12.21 10:40:00 - [472] Did you ever stop to notice that the EULA puts a lot of restrictions on you, but accepts no responsibilities to CCP? It's up to you to not use bots, it's not up to CCP to do anything about it if they choose not to. You will find this pattern repeated in every rule they impose on you. In this way, they can never be accused of falsehoods or lying when they play favourites as they so often do. The only real way to win is to not play.
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact	Posted - 2010.12.21 11:26:00 - [473] Originally by: Wiki Leaks Did you ever stop to notice that the EULA puts a lot of restrictions on you, but accepts no responsibilities to CCP? Their lawyers would be grossly negligent if it wasn't like that. Originally by: Samuel Langhorne Clemens I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.21 12:55:00 - [474] Given the fact that CCP is locking and/or moving other threads on this subject so quickly the mods must be botting, the question for CCP is why the hell aren't they DISCUSSING this subject in this thread that they keep relegating to the ghetto? Want proof of widespread botting? Look at Dotlan. More proof? Go look at ISK for sale websites (and no, I'm not going to link any, Google it for yourself) and you will see that you can get 1 Billion for around $31. Compared to purchasing a GTC and selling two PLEX items which will net you around 700M or so for $35. Therein lies the problem, the PLEX system is part of the problem and is what is making it easy for botters to run large numbers of accounts as they can be funded entirely by the act of botting itself which allows them to self perpetuate. The botter/ISK seller need not invest a single dime beyond the cost of the client itself. It is a huge irony that the people who are buying ISK "honestly" (really, there is no moral difference between paying CCP or paying "Russian Drone Bot Hellhole Alliance B" for ISK) are the ones MAKING PLEX ITEMS available for the botters! The way I see it there are three possible solutions that need to be tried: 1. Get rid of the PLEX items and go back to direct account to account trading of GTC codes (or get rid of any form of RMT entirely). This CCP absolutely won't do even if it can be demonstrated (and it can) that this practice is harming the game economy. The 60 day GTC/PLEX system is what is being exploited and is what has sent this problem spiraling out of control. 2. Implement a system of aggressive behavior monitoring supervised by live GM's. Given the regularity of bot patterns/size of operations, surely a database query can be built that can whittle down a list of possibles for GM's to investigate. Hell, you don't even need to go to that effort, just dedicate some GM's to check out the top 25 most ratted 0.0 systems on Dotlan... 3. A rewrite of client encryption and packet security needs to be done ASAP. There are now bots so advanced multiple ones can run on a single PC due to the fact that the client can be talked to directly by the bot. Clearly this indicates that the security CCP has in the client has been completely breached and is useless. This won't stop bots completely (bots that read pixels on a video screen can't ever be stopped) but it will make running them more inconvenient and expensive for the botters, something that will increase their costs and decrease their numbers.
Wiki Leaks	Posted - 2010.12.21 14:57:00 - [475] Originally by: Jack Gilligan 1. Get rid of the PLEX items. When Hilmar watches us all paying real money to provide the means for other people to cheat-for-free he must laugh his ****ter inside out before going back to count the massive piles of cash he's making.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.21 17:07:00 - [476] Originally by: Wiki Leaks Originally by: Jack Gilligan 1. Get rid of the PLEX items. When Hilmar watches us all paying real money to provide the means for other people to cheat-for-free he must laugh his ****ter inside out before going back to count the massive piles of cash he's making. This is why we need to hold their feet to the fire, not let off the pressure and force CCP to either get rid of RMT entirely OR commit to dedicating the live GM staff resources needed to stop the botters. They can fix the client encryption make automated DB queries, etc, but there need to be people dedicated to this. One mass banning "Unholy Rage" style won't cut it this time, there needs to be a massive and VISIBLE ongoing effort. Either this, or CCP acknowledges that the PLEX system is going to COST them more money than it brings in to keep and they get rid of it. Massive bot operations would be a lot harder to start up, run, and continue without their ability to fund themselves entirely from ISK of their own botting...
Borun Tal Minmatar Roslyn Arago	Posted - 2010.12.21 17:19:00 - [477] Are we still feed up? After two weeks we haven't ragequit, but we're still feed up? Wow...
gpfwestie Gallente Westie Engineering	Posted - 2010.12.21 22:27:00 - [478] RMT is a serious issue
Superpossee	Posted - 2010.12.22 11:14:00 - [479] Posting to prevent the thread from being ignored. New potential players reading this should know that eve has a cheating-problem
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.22 11:58:00 - [480] Originally by: Superpossee Posting to prevent the thread from being ignored. New potential players reading this should know that eve has a cheating-problem Not only a cheating problem, but a cheating problem the dev's simply ignore, even when presented with incontestable proof: Quote: Guy #1: http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/botter1.jpg http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/botter2.jpg http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/botter3.jpg http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/botter4.jpg Guy #2: http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/20091102231706.jpg Guy #3: http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/frm00524.JPG Can't check right now but this evidence, along with the forums where these were posted, was given to CCP a few weeks ago, whats the bet they're still botting in game today? --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.

Bill's Alt	Posted - 2010.12.22 12:33:00 - [481] A screenshot with a name that might very well be shopped is hardly compelling evidence Regardless, the bots are not easily taken care of. Changing the boring aspects of the game might decrease the motivation to use a bot, but it sure won't remove the ability to do so.
DR Blues	Posted - 2010.12.22 13:18:00 - [482] Originally by: Superpossee Posting to prevent the thread from being ignored. New potential players reading this should know that eve has a cheating-problem Is bying timecodes with RLM en sell them here legal for isk not cheating? The answer is no because ccp makes profit this way. Selling timecodes and plex = buying ships, bpo and caracters with rlm from ccp. Not that i have anything against that. I buy timecodes
Pesadel0 the muppets Blade.	Posted - 2010.12.22 13:38:00 - [483] Originally by: DR Blues Originally by: Superpossee Posting to prevent the thread from being ignored. New potential players reading this should know that eve has a cheating-problem Is bying timecodes with RLM en sell them here legal for isk not cheating? The answer is no because ccp makes profit this way. Selling timecodes and plex = buying ships, bpo and caracters with rlm from ccp. Not that i have anything against that. I buy timecodes I dont know about you but i can¦t really compete against a player that is making bilions of cash .
Khors Amtek Inc	Posted - 2010.12.22 14:56:00 - [484] If I had millions of cash I guess I could afford some more costly ships and layout, but at the end of the day, I still get along well with my only account, making enough isk to get standard ships and the main strength for any pvp'er is not the skillpoints or equipment, it's how it's used. Plex is only only one shortcut. The point is while I don't think I suffer personally from botting, I rather see CCP getting the resources when selling plex, than someone making a living out of botting and selling the isk.
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.12.22 20:27:00 - [485] Botting doesn't always lead to RMT or isk sales, which I believe CCP works against, but it kind of makes sense if you are botting away piling up billion on billions of isk you'd probably then think "why not sell this **?" since there is only so much isk you 'need' anyway. So some of those people probably do that but not all, the others are smarter to just bot away and have unlimited isk to do what they want. It is the issue of players using bots to make isk for themselves that is the issue CCP repeatedly is seen as ignoring, because it doesn't compete with their product Game Time Codes converted to PLEX and sold ingame for ISK. Bottom line CCP seems to look the other way for botting when no Real Money Transactions are involved because those botting use up PLEX, decreasing the stock piles on the market, less PLEX on market means higher ISK return on real money spent for them, which means CCP's option to 'buy' isk gets closer to the RMT prices. The 'cost' to CCP is continued sources of 'isk' for RMT, competition for 'isk' sales, bad PR from players who see the problem, a set number of what must be thousands, probably ten thousand or so of 'subscribers' who tax their HW by botting regularly, a false sense of how many people actually play their game, among others. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--**
StillBorn CrackBaby	Posted - 2010.12.22 20:34:00 - [486] Originally by: Bhattran ... doesn't compete with their product Game Time Codes converted to PLEX and sold ingame for ISK. Game Times Codes are NOT converted to PLEX and "sold" for ISK. Game Time Codes are "traded" for ISK in the Timecode Bazarr. No PLEX are involved...
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.22 20:55:00 - [487] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 22/12/2010 20:58:15 Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby Originally by: Bhattran ... doesn't compete with their product Game Time Codes converted to PLEX and sold ingame for ISK. Game Times Codes are NOT converted to PLEX and "sold" for ISK. Game Time Codes are "traded" for ISK in the Timecode Bazarr. No PLEX are involved... you should check your facts before making "look, how dumb you are" statements like this. You know, it's pretty embarrassing when they backfire... of course you can convert GTCs to PLEX if you want to (but you cannot convert 2x PLEX into a GTC afaik). [ESC] -> Convert ETC Selling GTCs on the forums only means longer waiting times, leaving a public paper trail and often getting a worse price than you could have expected in-game.
RedShadow Evoke. Ev0ke	Posted - 2010.12.22 23:26:00 - [488] Edited by: RedShadow on 22/12/2010 23:27:22 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Superpossee Posting to prevent the thread from being ignored. New potential players reading this should know that eve has a cheating-problem Not only a cheating problem, but a cheating problem the dev's simply ignore, even when presented with incontestable proof: Quote: Guy #1: http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/botter1.jpg http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/botter2.jpg http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/botter3.jpg http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/botter4.jpg Guy #2: http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/20091102231706.jpg Guy #3: http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/frm00524.JPG Can't check right now but this evidence, along with the forums where these were posted, was given to CCP a few weeks ago, whats the bet they're still botting in game today? We received word of these screenies and since evoke doesn't support any botters, the regarding member is being kicked from the corp.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.23 02:13:00 - [489] Originally by: RedShadow Edited by: RedShadow on 22/12/2010 23:27:22 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Superpossee Posting to prevent the thread from being ignored. New potential players reading this should know that eve has a cheating-problem Not only a cheating problem, but a cheating problem the dev's simply ignore, even when presented with incontestable proof: Quote: Guy #1: http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/botter1.jpg http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/botter2.jpg http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/botter3.jpg http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/botter4.jpg Guy #2: http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/20091102231706.jpg Guy #3: http://www.randomhost.org/botterimgs/frm00524.JPG Can't check right now but this evidence, along with the forums where these were posted, was given to CCP a few weeks ago, whats the bet they're still botting in game today? We received word of these screenies and since evoke doesn't support any botters, the regarding member is being kicked from the corp. Good to see you guys stepping up. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.23 10:14:00 - [490] Well I've just done what might be my last petition ever on this. I've petitioned 20 characters who aren't just obvious, they're blatant. If they're still here in a couple of weeks then I know that CCP simply don't care about cheating unless it involves RMT. Do make sure you're all pointing new/returning players at this thread. Best they know the score as early as possible.

leich Amarr bish bash bosh	Posted - 2010.12.23 11:08:00 - [491] I have no Problems with botting. I think it's good for the game not bad. RMT is another issue and should be dealt with harshly. RMT and botting or not mutually exclusive so can we please separate them.
Superpossee	Posted - 2010.12.23 11:12:00 - [492] Originally by: leich I have no Problems with botting. I think it's good for the game not bad. RMT is another issue and should be dealt with harshly. RMT and botting or not mutually exclusive so can we please separate them. I have no problems with RMT. I think its only bad for ccp, not the players. Botting is another issue and should be dealt with harshly. RMT and botting or not mutually exclusive so can we please separate them.
Othran Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.23 19:48:00 - [493] Originally by: Othran Well I've just done what might be my last petition ever on this. I've petitioned 20 characters who aren't just obvious, they're blatant. If they're still here in a couple of weeks then I know that CCP simply don't care about cheating unless it involves RMT. Do make sure you're all pointing new/returning players at this thread. Best they know the score as early as possible. Mmmm odd that within an hour of this post I get some "eastern" attention. Bring it if you like lads - no bubbles = epic fail on your part. Do keep bringing in the alts though.....
coolzero Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.23 20:32:00 - [494] ban the botters..... in o.o at least you can shoot them down...but in high sec they are always there and at the end of the day stripped the belt before you can get to it(yes i know you can mine in other system...guess what...they are there too...... reported many suspected bots...never any signs they have been banned of punished.... guess CCP doesnt care all that much about it or at least i cant see it. Jack of all trades, master of none...
Starfall Achura	Posted - 2010.12.23 21:14:00 - [495] Originally by: Fried'chickenisha Forum bot x5000......pick one reply 1) STFU noob 2) go back to WoW 3) you mad? 4) Umad 5) cooly story bra 6) your mother random pick #6 Your mother What in the hell happened to "Amirite?"?!?!?!? I demand you add it to the Forum bot!!! What kind of junk are you trying to peddle around here?
Trajan Ultor	Posted - 2010.12.23 21:36:00 - [496] If CCP did something about macro-bots, especially the ones in 0.0, do you have any idea how many Russians would emo-rage-quit ? Entire alliances would collapse.
Superpossee	Posted - 2010.12.24 09:27:00 - [497] Originally by: Trajan Ultor If CCP did something about macro-bots, especially the ones in 0.0, do you have any idea how many Russians would emo-rage-quit ? Entire alliances would collapse. So?
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.12.24 09:30:00 - [498] Originally by: Superpossee Originally by: Trajan Ultor If CCP did something about macro-bots, especially the ones in 0.0, do you have any idea how many Russians would emo-rage-quit ? Entire alliances would collapse. So? So byebye funding for Incarna
coolzero Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.24 11:21:00 - [499] Quote: We will continue to allow people to use PLEX to pay for their tickets to Fanfest, gathering as many players as possible. Using PLEX, attendees can attend Fanfest simply by playing EVE! We are making the Plex for Passes system easier for everyone. Now you can simply use the redeeming system in account management to get your ticket(s) to Fanfest 2011. 1 Fanfest Access Pass = 6 PLEX 1 Spouse (SoE) Access Pass = 12 PLEX well this should be easy for people who use macro's, if i read how much they are making.... Jack of all trades, master of none...
Dienowthxbay	Posted - 2010.12.24 13:27:00 - [500] Playing since 2004, i saw a lot, this will probably kill not eve but playerbase :( Take a look and u will feel being idiots playing RMT + CCP both making money... Eve-news info 1 info 2

sakana North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.12.24 14:05:00 - [501] jus posting to note the irony of an NC member complaining about RMT. although thats probably been covered somewhere in the last 17 pages
Jaqel Broadside	Posted - 2010.12.24 15:39:00 - [502] Originally by: Cupio Mortem Originally by: Superpossee Originally by: Trajan Ultor If CCP did something about macro-bots, especially the ones in 0.0, do you have any idea how many Russians would emo-rage-quit ? Entire alliances would collapse. So? So byebye funding for Incarna I don't know anyone who plays Eve for Incarna. I do know lot's of people who would like to ACTUALLY be able to get into 0.0 without getting into Alliance idiotfare
Joe Skellington Minmatar JOKAS Industries Apocalypse Now.	Posted - 2010.12.24 17:19:00 - [503] Confirming I'm FEED UP with Gingerbread cookies. Merry Christmas.
Lady Aja Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.24 22:20:00 - [504] everytime i see a 14 day trail account magnate hauler in my my area i pettion then and they now get banned fairly fast.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.25 01:40:00 - [505] Originally by: Dienowthxbay Playing since 2004, i saw a lot, this will probably kill not eve but playerbase :( Take a look and u will feel being idiots playing RMT + CCP both making money... Eve-news info 1 info 2 If people are making 400bil a month like the guy claims in the first link then any sort of economic warfare becomes redundant and the game is simply broken for anyone playing alliances the way it was intended. Certainly hope that's not true. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2010.12.25 04:14:00 - [506] ccp allows the game to happen a certain way
Barbelo Valentinian Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.12.25 14:53:00 - [507] Originally by: HeliosGal ccp allows the game to happen a certain way Fascinating topic. I think the above must surely be the case. After all, CCP are computer geeks like many other players here, they must know the commonly-used softwares, etc., etc., in fact they probably have them installed themselves, to see how they work! It's no great mystery. The obvious conclusion is that a certain amount of it is tolerated so long as it's not hurting the bottom line, and there must be many ways in which people can do this stuff without hurting CCP's bottom line. Presumably the only ones that do hurt CCP's bottom line are the rl isk sellers who bypass the GTC/Plex system CCP have set up, and I'd be willing to bet CCP do go after them if and when they find them. But EVE is a big place, and people are clever. But those who work within CCP's rules to make large amounts of isk or even some rl money? All good, clean fun from CCP's point of view, so far as I can fathom. In a way, they're just doing a meta version of what rentiers do in-game, or what a franchise might do irl. And to be fair to CCP, it's clear that EVE is also a labour of love, and I believe they do also have some dedication to the artistic concept of making the world's first true all-in s-f simulator, so I think they're willing to do whatever it takes to get there - and that's a good thing for all of us. One might think, well what about those who just play the game? Well, they get a great game to play, that keeps rolling, and keeps updating - I can say that because I'm one of them, I'm just a Bartle "Explorer" type who likes goofing off pretending to be a space pilot for a few hours a night. Bartle "Player Killers" are obviously well-catered for in EVE too, as are "Social" players. The only losers, and that only in a psychological sense, are those who have a psychological barrier against all this kind of stuff happening - Bartle "Achievers" who have romantic notions about gameplay and what's fair and right in MMOs, and whose sense of achievement is tied to "achievement" in terms of the virtual game world. All this kind of botting stuff cheapens their experience. As a Bartle "Explorer", I don't have much sympathy for that type of player, but I recognise that the situation as it currently stands must hurt. On a more general level, this kind of thing was foreseen long ago by s-f writers like Vernor Vinge and canvassed more recently by Charlie Stross. The idea that virtual worlds could be places where people can make real life money is a well-known trope, and it's obviously just going to expand as time goes on. ***** "To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
Meridian Siri	Posted - 2010.12.26 15:51:00 - [508] Imoa CCP has done a passably good job at building a game that cover a diverse set of game playing "styles". I think that the impact of botters on the game is probably felt less by the really casual explorer-type (as described above). Their impact is felt more as a such a player tries to expand their horizons into other content of the game. A lot of the game (even PvP) is based in economics; when botters are on the board, it make it unrealistic that the honest player will be able to compete.
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2010.12.26 16:45:00 - [509] Originally by: Meridian Siri Imoa CCP has done a passably good job at building a game that cover a diverse set of game playing "styles". I think that the impact of botters on the game is probably felt less by the really casual explorer-type (as described above). Their impact is felt more as a such a player tries to expand their horizons into other content of the game. A lot of the game (even PvP) is based in economics; when botters are on the board, it make it unrealistic that the honest player will be able to compete. Last sentence is very true. To make things really work, CCP needs to do a life time ban on accounts associated with Bots, and secondary accounts where isk and good are transferred from bot account. CCP is afraid for it's profit, and ruining fair game play, they give out minor accounts suspensions from what I hear. Make players caught with bots suffer majorly by losing everything they have and all their accounts, be that 2 3 4 or 5 accounts all banned. Lesser punishment would be full stripping of all assets on all accounts, and 1 month ban? This will discourage 90% of players who uses bots for in game profit, ISK sellers will remain a separate issue, but the first is a big advancement.
Angie McFish Gallente Caldari Industrial Capitalist Consortium	Posted - 2010.12.26 21:52:00 - [510] I wouldn't mind botting as much if there was a risk involved in it. Now from what I've gathered, they are pretty much bulletproof. If CCP would introduce some kind of botting countermeasure which would let us attack these *cheaters*. Maybe some logoffski timer, anti-cloak equipment, dock request times, slower acceleration for mining ships, W-space kind of local chat? These are just a few ideas I can come up with to make botting more dangerous. Risk vs reward, considering 400bil/month is a pretty juicy reward, I believe the risk should be much greater

De Su	Posted - 2010.12.27 03:07:00 - [511] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Dienowthxbay Playing since 2004, i saw a lot, this will probably kill not eve but playerbase :( Take a look and u will feel being idiots playing RMT + CCP both making money... Eve-news info 1 info 2 If people are making 400bil a month like the guy claims in the first link then any sort of economic warfare becomes redundant and the game is simply broken for anyone playing alliances the way it was intended. Certainly hope that's not true. Warfare, especially 0.0 warfare involving anyone competent, has always been more about morale than finances anyways. One guy who can afford to lose expensive ship after expensive ship makes less impact than 100 who can fly whatever the standard fleet ship is on a regular basis in any case.
Meridian Siri	Posted - 2010.12.27 06:22:00 - [512] Originally by: De Su Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Dienowthxbay Playing since 2004, i saw a lot, this will probably kill not eve but playerbase :( Take a look and u will feel being idiots playing RMT + CCP both making money... Eve-news info 1 info 2 If people are making 400bil a month like the guy claims in the first link then any sort of economic warfare becomes redundant and the game is simply broken for anyone playing alliances the way it was intended. Certainly hope that's not true. Warfare, especially 0.0 warfare involving anyone competent, has always been more about morale than finances anyways. One guy who can afford to lose expensive ship after expensive ship makes less impact than 100 who can fly whatever the standard fleet ship is on a regular basis in any case. Not strictly a credible argument. Although, I will conceed that good pilots in basic fleet fits are a cornerstone of a quality organization....warfare eventually comes down to economics, logistics, etc. If your 100 guys in regular fleet fits can loose with impunity (ie. ready and unlimited replacements) this is a severe obstacle for an alliance/corp that is not in the "bot-game". It is hard to argue that the ability to replace losses (extending to capitols and supercaps) at will does not represent a dramatic advantage to an alliance or corp. Basically, the cheater will nearly always win because of pure economic might. RL military history bears this out well. Wars are won by crippling an opponents economic base; it's why factories get bombed....just saying.
Dienowthxbay	Posted - 2010.12.27 07:51:00 - [513] Yeah its skill, but in big fleet figts personal skill value diminishes and impact of fleetcomm skill rise... And about botting and economics - we are not talking about replacing ordinary gang ships (thats pretty easy to get money for new 1-3 fleet bs in 0.0) - we are talking about x10***+ sums made in days, capital fleets, inflation and isk mass ingame.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.27 08:25:00 - [514] Originally by: Meridian Siri If your 100 guys in regular fleet fits can loose with impunity (ie. ready and unlimited replacements) this is a severe obstacle for an alliance/corp that is not in the "bot-game". It is hard to argue that the ability to replace losses (extending to capitols and supercaps) at will does not represent a dramatic advantage to an alliance or corp. subcap ship replacement shouldn't be a problem as long as you consider insurance payouts and have minimal access to decent moon minerals (and if it is a problem, you might want to contact the UN for help^^). I guess botting really starts to shine when you start playing the supercap game...
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.12.27 08:33:00 - [515] Originally by: Dienowthxbay Yeah its skill, but in big fleet figts personal skill value diminishes and impact of fleetcomm skill rise... And about botting and economics - we are not talking about replacing ordinary gang ships (thats pretty easy to get money for new 1-3 fleet bs in 0.0) - we are talking about x10***+ sums made in days, capital fleets, inflation and isk mass ingame. I have a hard time believing this inflation talk. If I buy a supercap for ISK I did gain from botting, then the most direct impact on the price level would be rising mineral prices (extra demand for minerals financed with freshly printed money). But by the looks of it the mining bots are very well able to counteract the extra supply of ISK with an additional inflow of minerals. Ratting bots -> tendency towards inflation (note that I say "tendency") Mining/PI bots -> tendency towards deflation/disinflation end result - fairly stable prices & happiness
Zangorus	Posted - 2010.12.27 11:31:00 - [516] botting is bad mkay?
Superpossee	Posted - 2010.12.27 11:33:00 - [517] Originally by: Cyaxares II Originally by: Dienowthxbay Yeah its skill, but in big fleet figts personal skill value diminishes and impact of fleetcomm skill rise... And about botting and economics - we are not talking about replacing ordinary gang ships (thats pretty easy to get money for new 1-3 fleet bs in 0.0) - we are talking about x10*+ sums made in days, capital fleets, inflation and isk mass ingame. I have a hard time believing this inflation talk. If I buy a supercap for ISK I did gain from botting, then the most direct impact on the price level would be rising mineral prices (extra demand for minerals financed with freshly printed money). But by the looks of it the mining bots are very well able to counteract the extra supply of ISK with an additional inflow of minerals. Ratting bots -> tendency towards inflation (note that I say "tendency") Mining/PI bots -> tendency towards deflation/disinflation end result - fairly stable prices & happiness I agree with the ratting-bots vs. mining-bots stuff, but the rest is bull**. It starts with you buying a supercap with cheater-isk in the first place, isk you should not have, isk you dont care about losing while your opponent who grinded months for his SC really puts something at risk if he uses it. So the onle possible winner here is the cheating bastard, even if he has to lose 10 SCs before killing one. You simply dont care for isk if it is generated constantly without putting efforts in it.
Pesadel0 the muppets Blade.	Posted - 2010.12.27 20:01:00 - [518] Originally by: Superpossee Originally by: Cyaxares II Originally by: Dienowthxbay Yeah its skill, but in big fleet figts personal skill value diminishes and impact of fleetcomm skill rise... And about botting and economics - we are not talking about replacing ordinary gang ships (thats pretty easy to get money for new 1-3 fleet bs in 0.0) - we are talking about x10*+ sums made in days, capital fleets, inflation and isk mass ingame. I have a hard time believing this inflation talk. If I buy a supercap for ISK I did gain from botting, then the most direct impact on the price level would be rising mineral prices (extra demand for minerals financed with freshly printed money). But by the looks of it the mining bots are very well able to counteract the extra supply of ISK with an additional inflow of minerals. Ratting bots -> tendency towards inflation (note that I say "tendency") Mining/PI bots -> tendency towards deflation/disinflation end result - fairly stable prices & happiness I agree with the ratting-bots vs. mining-bots stuff, but the rest is bull**. It starts with you buying a supercap with cheater-isk in the first place, isk you should not have, isk you dont care about losing while your opponent who grinded months for his SC really puts something at risk if he uses it. So the onle possible winner here is the cheating bastard, even if he has to lose 10 SCs before killing one. You simply dont care for isk if it is generated constantly without putting efforts in it. This , and did we get a devblog about this stuff?
Sraik Doubter PWNED THEORY	Posted - 2010.12.28 00:04:00 - [519] Yes, we got a lame, corporate yes-man style dev blog. Problem solved apparently.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire	Posted - 2010.12.29 00:11:00 - [520] time to bring back some noise, great threads live!

Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire	Posted - 2010.12.29 00:41:00 - [521] Originally by: Cyaxares II Originally by: Dienowthxbay Yeah its skill, but in big fleet figts personal skill value diminishes and impact of fleetcomm skill rise... And about botting and economics - we are not talking about replacing ordinary gang ships (thats pretty easy to get money for new 1-3 fleet bs in 0.0) - we are talking about x10***+ sums made in days, capital fleets, inflation and isk mass ingame. I have a hard time believing this inflation talk. If I buy a supercap for ISK I did gain from botting, then the most direct impact on the price level would be rising mineral prices (extra demand for minerals financed with freshly printed money). But by the looks of it the mining bots are very well able to counteract the extra supply of ISK with an additional inflow of minerals. Ratting bots -> tendency towards inflation (note that I say "tendency") Mining/PI bots -> tendency towards deflation/disinflation end result - fairly stable prices & happiness no, not at all... 1st Money that botters make is not injected into the economy. Nobody ever buys 3 bill isk in order to buy 150 Drakes! So the demand does not change much. This way general markets and minerals prices aren't affected, since the player base still has finite and stable money source. People who buy isk prefer to spend it on top-end gear, like tech 3 cruisers, rare faction mods and HG implants. Thus, the very limited supply of 'rare' named stuff is unable to meet the demand and prices tend to grow (Sellers are not numerous and adjust pricing fast). 2nd Mining bots only eliminate the competitive advantage of miners and mining alliances on the markets, so bulk sales of minerals become less and less attractive. The 'reasonable price' of minerals can only be related to the ability of an individual to 'produce' isk in order to consume 'finished products and materials'. Because pricing is directly related to purchasing power of the general population. And general population doesn't rely on bots and doesn't buy isk. Nobody becomes happy when the value of spaceships and equipment goes down. Frankly speaking massively available items are compared to crap, because they give neither advantage, nor satisfaction.
yieasase susivirate	Posted - 2010.12.29 10:53:00 - [522] cash cash payback presents environment versus environment create ur own tax free company, with a daily incom up to xxxxx blend idots or selfdestruct, right originalities organize the known intelligence term i miss a substantive sure
Doug Garvin	Posted - 2010.12.29 13:01:00 - [523] Do you think CCP wants to offend its macro mining paying customers?
Rat Mcgee	Posted - 2010.12.29 18:48:00 - [524] CCP we need to get rid of macro users!
Ephemeron The Dirty Dozen	Posted - 2010.12.29 19:03:00 - [525] If CCP were hardcore enough they could organize and secretly fund Anonymous type group and use it to attack the known RMT IPs, for both clients and websites. CCP got all the right things to make it happen - inside information, money, and 300,000 people who may be interested in participating. Of course none of it could be official and everything would have to be done thru 3rd parties. But in this world we KNOW it can be done, safely and successfully.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire	Posted - 2010.12.29 19:03:00 - [526] what did we whine about again?
Airatt DeathRattlers	Posted - 2010.12.29 20:15:00 - [527] Why has CCP not responded to this forum post?
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.12.29 21:54:00 - [528] Edited by: riverini on 29/12/2010 21:56:40 Originally by: Airatt Why has CCP not responded to this forum post? They will... in 18 months... Originally by: Meridian Siri Originally by: De Su Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Dienowthxbay Playing since 2004, i saw a lot, this will probably kill not eve but playerbase :( Take a look and u will feel being idiots playing RMT + CCP both making money... Eve-news info 1 info 2 If people are making 400bil a month like the guy claims in the first link then any sort of economic warfare becomes redundant and the game is simply broken for anyone playing alliances the way it was intended. Certainly hope that's not true. Warfare, especially 0.0 warfare involving anyone competent, has always been more about morale than finances anyways. One guy who can afford to lose expensive ship after expensive ship makes less impact than 100 who can fly whatever the standard fleet ship is on a regular basis in any case. Not strictly a credible argument. Although, I will conceed that good pilots in basic fleet fits are a cornerstone of a quality organization....warfare eventually comes down to economics, logistics, etc. If your 100 guys in regular fleet fits can loose with impunity (ie. ready and unlimited replacements) this is a severe obstacle for an alliance/corp that is not in the "bot-game". It is hard to argue that the ability to replace losses (extending to capitols and supercaps) at will does not represent a dramatic advantage to an alliance or corp. Basically, the cheater will nearly always win because of pure economic might. RL military history bears this out well. Wars are won by crippling an opponents economic base; it's why factories get bombed....just saying. You obviously haven't been never in 0.0 or just not long enough, Morale and decent FC's are the oxygen of any respectable 0.0 entity, just take a look at the mid year KSC invasion, H-W changed everything, not because of the ship lost there, but because of the morale blow it dealt to all it's pilots German Giggles riverini
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2010.12.29 22:00:00 - [529] Yeah it is getting really bad. Support
Dante Marcellus Minmatar Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team	Posted - 2010.12.29 23:08:00 - [530] I usually feed down.

McTard	Posted - 2010.12.29 23:23:00 - [531] Only way anything would ever change about this is if almost EVERYONE had acces to free, safe macros. Then of course the anti-macro/botting measures would fall like rain.
Lord Dragonmede	Posted - 2010.12.30 00:21:00 - [532] Edited by: Lord Dragonmede on 30/12/2010 00:22:25 CCP has responded to this thread, they keep locking similar threads and burying the conversation into this one. Contain the situation, contain the topic, and pretend it doesn't exist... Eventually, the solution is for everyone to EMORAGEQUIT over botting. When that does happen, can I have your stuff?
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.30 04:21:00 - [533] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 30/12/2010 04:21:43 Originally by: riverini You obviously haven't been never in 0.0 or just not long enough, Morale and decent FC's are the oxygen of any respectable 0.0 entity, just take a look at the mid year KSC invasion, H-W changed everything, not because of the ship lost there, but because of the morale blow it dealt to all it's pilots German Giggles riverini Doesn't matter if you have the best FC's and the greatest pvp'rs in the world. When a single guy can farm 400 billion isk per month, enough to fund 20 super-carriers, you cannot win. By the time you manage to blow up all his 20 super carriers, lets say that takes 3 months he now has 60 more. Meanwhile his super carriers have managed to kill half of your total assets. How are you going to continue without botting yourself? Morale wise who is winning? --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.12.30 05:18:00 - [534] Originally by: Infinity Ziona By the time you manage to blow up all his 20 super carriers, lets say that takes 3 months he now has 60 more. Meanwhile his super carriers have managed to kill half of your total assets. How are you going to continue without botting yourself? One option is to stake out the systems suspected of harbouring botters. Do so in cloaky ships equipped with cynos. The bots will warp to a safespot and cloak. The catch is that this does require dedicating one account to being unproductive 24x7. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2010.12.30 05:37:00 - [535] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 30/12/2010 05:38:04 Originally by: Mara Rinn Originally by: Infinity Ziona By the time you manage to blow up all his 20 super carriers, lets say that takes 3 months he now has 60 more. Meanwhile his super carriers have managed to kill half of your total assets. How are you going to continue without botting yourself? One option is to stake out the systems suspected of harbouring botters. Do so in cloaky ships equipped with cynos. The bots will warp to a safespot and cloak. The catch is that this does require dedicating one account to being unproductive 24x7. Ironically that was the goal of my current corporation. To recruit alts who would log on a covert ops character in a bot ratting system when they logged off to go work, sleep, rl stuff. Unfortunately it was torpedoed by CCP's new netcode that no longer allows me to play without constantly disconnecting. Hopefully someone will pick up this idea and run with it till CCP fixes their netcode. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
Meridian Siri	Posted - 2011.01.01 03:59:00 - [536] Originally by: Lord Dragonmede Edited by: Lord Dragonmede on 30/12/2010 00:22:25 CCP has responded to this thread, they keep locking similar threads and burying the conversation into this one. Contain the situation, contain the topic, and pretend it doesn't exist... This. Seems like this issue is destined to be swept under the rug through neglect.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.01 05:38:00 - [537] This thread has gone on for 18 pages now. Will the OP PLEASE ****ing change the subject to "We are FED up" and not "FEED". It's been bugging me. Just sayin'.
Peaceouthomies	Posted - 2011.01.01 08:05:00 - [538] Yeah, what she said M'Fer!
Musashi IV	Posted - 2011.01.01 13:20:00 - [539] CCP its time to get rid of macro users!
Keta Fraal Nul and Booleans	Posted - 2011.01.01 13:40:00 - [540] Originally by: Musashi IV CCP its time to get rid of macro users! Your useless posting on this subject continually serves as an advertisement to new players on the forum. nothing will come of further discussion on the matter. If you really wanted to make a difference you would petition about suspected macro users. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated.

Meridian Siri	Posted - 2011.01.01 17:20:00 - [541] Originally by: Keta Fraal Originally by: Musashi IV CCP its time to get rid of macro users! Your useless posting on this subject continually serves as an advertisement to new players on the forum. nothing will come of further discussion on the matter. If you really wanted to make a difference you would petition about suspected macro users. For the benefit of one that has not read some of the content of this thread; been there, done that. One of the reasons for this thread is that such petitions appear to go nowhere. You can petition macroers until the moons go blue from cold and CCP does not appear to act.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.01 18:19:00 - [542] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 01/01/2011 18:20:31 Originally by: Keta Fraal Originally by: Musashi IV CCP its time to get rid of macro users! Your useless posting on this subject continually serves as an advertisement to new players on the forum. ... which is the very point of this thread? (and of CzechLion's campaign that sparked this thread) New players reading this thread will either take the countless clues and start running bots by themselves or they will turn away from EVE in disgust before they have (over-)committed to this game. Both outcomes are not really desirable for CCP (first one leads to long-term issues, second one means direct loss of revenue). If you want to get a company to do your bidding but are not in a position to vote with your own dollars (because you are addicted, have already invested too much time into this game, don't see any attractive games to switch to, ...) trying to deny that company income from new customers can be a viable approach. "EVE's economy is run by bots" is a very strong counter to CCP's "sandbox" advertisment and CCP will have a very hard time getting this notion out of people's heads if they don't react before it becomes common knowledge in the wider MMO audience. As is the benefits of having a "clean" game do not seem to outweigh the cost of banning the bots (and implementing serious countermeasures to prevent botting). What this thread tries to achieve is adding/threatening to add a substantial "cost of not banning bots" entry into the equation.
Market Blackhole	Posted - 2011.01.01 18:25:00 - [543] Edited by: Market Blackhole on 01/01/2011 18:25:33 341,481,600,000 isk / month 11,382,720,000 isk / day 474,280,000 isk / hour 7,904,666 isk / min Venal contains 71 Technetium moons. Thats 1 of 9 regions controlled in the north. And you really think its botters who are the problem? Please.
Soma Khan Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.01 21:32:00 - [544] Originally by: Cyaxares II CzechLion's campaign that sparked this thread checklion is hardly an objective participant in this, having been permabanned for rmt'ing. now, being butthurt at ccp, he's running adverts disguised as interviews for the leading macroers and rmt'ers on his news site __
KaraStarbuckThrace	Posted - 2011.01.01 22:02:00 - [545] I have to say that 99% of posts on the subject of bots are made by people who have no f**king clue what they are talking about. If it is so easy then why don't you come up with an effective method of stopping them, and I am not just talking about an idea.. actually go and create it. To fight the problem you actually have to have a clear understanding on exactly how bots work which many people here have demonstrated they don't have a clue. The majority of bots work using OCR(optical character recognition) macros, such as Tiny Miner, Stealth miner etc etc. At there basic level they just copy a serious of mouse and keyboard inputs and then just repeat them. So the most effective way is to run the Eve Client and the bot program within a virtual environment so that you can use you computer without disturbing Eve. The other method is by using Python Injection. Again at its most basic level this allows you to inject new python code straight into the game client. People have talked about using a program like Warden... well those people have no idea how Warden works and what a massively abuse to your privacy it is. Take a look for yourselves. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/10/blizzard_entert.html It doesn't make a difference to what you do in game as this will have no effect as the bots will just be able to replicate it. Changes would have to be made to the client... what changes I don't know.... I have never claimed to know but only that it would be very difficult, a lot more difficult then some people think.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.01.01 22:39:00 - [546] Originally by: Market Blackhole Edited by: Market Blackhole on 01/01/2011 18:25:33 341,481,600,000 isk / month 11,382,720,000 isk / day 474,280,000 isk / hour 7,904,666 isk / min And you really think its botters who are the problem? Please. That's the income of 7 to 17 bots depending on who you believe. So yes, bots are the problem. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.01.01 22:47:00 - [547] Originally by: KaraStarbuckThrace If it is so easy then why don't you come up with an effective method of stopping them, and I am not just talking about an idea.. actually go and create it. It's already been suggested. Limit the amount of time per day and account that can be spent ratting or mining, e.g. 2-3 hours/day. Alternatively, put an upper limit on bounties collected in 24h (including missions). Everything above the limit can go to the capsuleer orphans fund. ;-P Will it remove bots? Nope, but it will make 23/7 botting useless and it will allow human players to compete with botting income with a reasonable time investment per day. Will it affect the player-driven economy? Much less so than botting and people who complain about such a limit should get a life / find something else to do in the remaining online time, like PVP, trading, chatting ... How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.01.01 23:26:00 - [548] Originally by: KaraStarbuckThrace I have to say that 99% of posts on the subject of bots are made by people who have no fking clue what they are talking about. If it is so easy then why don't you come up with an effective method of stopping them, and I am not just talking about an idea.. actually go and create it. To fight the problem you actually have to have a clear understanding on exactly how bots work which many people here have demonstrated they don't have a clue. The majority of bots work using OCR(optical character recognition) macros, such as Tiny Miner, Stealth miner etc etc. At there basic level they just copy a serious of mouse and keyboard inputs and then just repeat them. So the most effective way is to run the Eve Client and the bot program within a virtual environment so that you can use you computer without disturbing Eve. The other method is by using Python Injection. Again at its most basic level this allows you to inject new python code straight into the game client. People have talked about using a program like Warden... well those people have no idea how Warden works and what a massively abuse to your privacy it is. Take a look for yourselves. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/10/blizzard_entert.html It doesn't make a difference to what you do in game as this will have no effect as the bots will just be able to replicate it. Changes would have to be made to the client... what changes I don't know.... I have never claimed to know but only that it would be very difficult, a lot more difficult then some people think. You didn't say it but in typical internet style I must retort you think it is too hard and we should all shut up and accept CCP's buy PLEX as the solution for botting. I haven't seen people say it is 'so easy' I do see people saying it is too hard. Some people do say use warden/punkbuster some say try other things, like you know looking at the programs being used and figure out how to counter them. I'm on the side that if CCP secured their client better along with doing things like analyzing 'player' behavior they could detect with great accuracy who's likely to be a bot. There are other ideas in this thread as well as others that have promise and only CCP can determine what will or won't work I'd hope they wouldn't choose warden/punkbuster 'easy street' crap but use some element to have their client resist tampering or detect a stripped down version being used to play the game. I don't know what would or wouldn't work but it seems that CCP has largely ignored this problem and if they put some real effort they could do a lot, at least for a while, and if they then continued to do things like randomizing data fields so bot users couldn't so easily read client data that might make it harder to run bots. If CCP keeps working to make botting harder botters have to work to keep up and that helps the 'fight' sitting there and waiting for RMT to happen isn't fighting botting, it is letting people amass so much isk they reach the point of real life greed and try to cash in and not everyone will do that. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--**
Meridian Siri	Posted - 2011.01.01 23:52:00 - [549] Originally by: KaraStarbuckThrace I have to say that 99% of posts on the subject of bots are made by people who have no fking clue what they are talking about. If it is so easy then why don't you come up with an effective method of stopping them.....blah, blah, blah.... Changes would have to be made to the client... what changes I don't know.... I have never claimed to know but only that it would be very difficult, a lot more difficult then some people think. Excellent post. ***es about folks not directly providing solutions (which would be sort of tough, since we don't code the game), then ends up tossing an idea out while admitting he has no idea how to accomplish it. Many potential idea have been presented here. Some seem pretty reasonable, some not. My suggestion is that if you are going to present an image that you know what you are talking about, at least try harder not to make it obvious that you are a major, clueless tool.
Meridian Siri	Posted - 2011.01.02 00:01:00 - [550] If you can find a good deal on a simple, logical line of reasoning (like a post holiday sale). I would be more than happy to buy you one.

Musashi IV	Posted - 2011.01.02 11:56:00 - [551] CCP need to get rid of all macro users.
laksmi2	Posted - 2011.01.02 12:51:00 - [552] do u realy think they will make willingly 1/3 of their income go away? ccp will see how far they can go with the macro situation before the games reputation becomes worse and they lose more subscriptions than make profit from macro accounts. the gms/devs posting here are either lying or have no clue or are too low on the pecking order to know. why not monitor the most obvious botting systems? even we without a database can see them on the map. why not check every supercap transaction from the material its built from to the money its bought with? ccp doesnt want to lose this income and dont want to spend the 30 k $ per month for the additional gms
Keta Fraal Nul and Booleans	Posted - 2011.01.02 15:30:00 - [553] Originally by: Musashi IV CCP need to get rid of all macro users. macrobot poster detected. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2011.01.02 15:45:00 - [554] CCP need to change mining, ratting and all those boring stuff to make it some what hard to bot Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments <0>
Ikathis sihtaki	Posted - 2011.01.02 17:12:00 - [555] Edited by: Ikathis sihtaki on 02/01/2011 17:15:22 too bad can't find that old quote from i can't remember who 7 years ago, when teh bots first were being noticed, and the rmt issue arose where CCP said that they will do all they can to keep outside of game mechanics (plex, your personal real life wallet, bots, character trading etc) from having an advantage ingame. Effin liers. CCP may as well release and expansion with bots built in for the avg user so we do'nt have to go to the 3rd party programs to keep the same edge as everyone else. CAN ANYONE ELSE agree that programs like i think it is BACON, and those that tell you who is coming into system with you is bull**? Then you do a lil diggin of your own and find fail sites like, rpgexploiters.com what a pathetic bunch of gamers we all are turning into. PLAY THE EFFIN GAME ***ES.
Musashi IV	Posted - 2011.01.03 14:05:00 - [556] Stop all macro users!!
Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp White Angels.	Posted - 2011.01.03 15:29:00 - [557] Edited by: Elzon1 on 03/01/2011 15:29:32 Am I the only one that heard of rumors that CCP will be doing a new "Unholy Rage" five times bigger than the previous one Maybe they have finally been able to develop an automated detection scheme to find all predictable bots/macros, wishful thinking Woot for a new "unholy rage though"... can't wait to see those PLEX prices drop when that happens (rmt isk demand goes into PLEX's at least temporarily) And thats the real reason to do an "unholy rage" thing, moar money for CCP Edit: not enough "unholy rage"
Musashi IV	Posted - 2011.01.04 12:31:00 - [558] Its time to remove macro users!
Caldari Citizen2323256	Posted - 2011.01.04 12:50:00 - [559] This thread reminds me. Must feed the chickens.
knobber Jobbler Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2011.01.04 13:31:00 - [560] Originally by: Cyaxares II Originally by: Meridian Siri If your 100 guys in regular fleet fits can loose with impunity (ie. ready and unlimited replacements) this is a severe obstacle for an alliance/corp that is not in the "bot-game". It is hard to argue that the ability to replace losses (extending to capitols and supercaps) at will does not represent a dramatic advantage to an alliance or corp. subcap ship replacement shouldn't be a problem as long as you consider insurance payouts and have minimal access to decent moon minerals (and if it is a problem, you might want to contact the UN for help^^). I guess botting really starts to shine when you start playing the supercap game... Not even with supercaps. If a bot supported corp or alliance can instantly replace lost POS bashing BS fleets it makes a massive difference to how 0.0 works, and we're already seeing this and CCP are ignoring it. A corp or alliance not using bots cannot endless replace or reimburse members for lost ships, POS towers, JB networks etc as they have a limited income govered by game mechanics and the number of players in that corp/alliance. Fleet armour BS's cost near enough 200m, even with normal insurance and alliance reimbursment it will only go so far before the non botters reach financial meltdown. You also have the issue of getting replacement ships to the local market or getting them brough in by JF. A corp or alliance botting can just buy up JF pilot alts and buy as many ships as they can get of the market in Jita and them get them shipped locally with there bot paid for JF pilots. This will also cause inflation in these high sec markets meaning normal players not using bots will no longer be able to afford BS's and T2 ships. As it is things like HAC's, Recons and logistics ships are horribly overpriced right now and this I think will force more casual players out of EVE. Unless something is done, more people will turn to bots and RMT as its the only way to compete with these guys who've been getting away with it for years.

Keta Fraal Nul and Booleans	Posted - 2011.01.04 13:47:00 - [561] BUMP. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated.
Countess Ponzi	Posted - 2011.01.04 13:51:00 - [562] What was Unholy Rage???
M4cr0 Min3r	Posted - 2011.01.04 14:49:00 - [563] So you want to stop botting? Current publically available bots allow you to run multiple characters from 1 PC, using a program which reads the memory used by the EVE client. This then runs a script which dictates the actions. So all those crying captcha fail, as the bot will bypass this entirely. The only 100% proof method to stop this malarky is for CCP to rewrite at least the client, and possibly some server code, to limit what information is given out, and to assume anything known to the client will be available to the user. An open source client would be ideal. If you need further info just google the words "Kugutsamen" and "RMT" and read page 8 of the first hit.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.01.04 20:26:00 - [564] Hm, interesting claims about major alliances / CSM members in the forum thread mentioned in the previous post. CCP should really try to limit the botting income even if they cannot / do not want to ban all bots. 18b/month from botting is a bit harsh towards the non-botting players who need to invest a lot of time in boring activities to make 1/10th the amount. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.04 20:49:00 - [565] Edited by: Severian Carnifex on 04/01/2011 20:57:04 I "love" ppl that say "nothing can be done" that ppl are users of macro or just like to citate CCPs text written between the lines... or are ppl that don't understand that prices of their ships will not go up that much like others macro users are talking becouse more real ppl will start to mine when mining will pay more isk per hour and prices will be balanced... i don't know why ppl are talking about macros... why "yes - no" voting... if we can use macro... just say so... real ppl pvp, and macros do all the rest... and EVE become "play with macros online"... i see many ppl that are thinking about buying macro software becouse they feel stupid... they must play the game to earn isk... and then they are killed and laugh at by ppl that are "PVP-ers" financed by many macro accounts... and that is just stupid... becouse that this game has more and more macros... and now not only lazy ppl macro or ppl that want real cash for not doing anything... now more and more ppl use macros becouse they want to have fun... and in this game most of fun have ppl that use macros... well... if you want to have fun without 4 accs runing in backround and macroing... speak now and make CCP do somethig about this...
Musashi IV	Posted - 2011.01.05 12:44:00 - [566] CCP needs to stop macro users!
M4cr0 Min3r	Posted - 2011.01.05 14:54:00 - [567] Originally by: Musashi IV CCP needs to stop macro users! In Soviet Russia macro users stop CCP!
Pookie McPook	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:28:00 - [568] The means is already in our hands. Hulkageddon. Use it. Thank you and goodnight. ----- Marmite. Rocket fuel of champions.
TheVolga	Posted - 2011.01.05 16:47:00 - [569] I wonder if CCP have ever thought of making an official eve bot. Everyone has access to it and can use it for a limited amount of hours per month. I personally have never botted, but I don't think its much harm if someone sticks on a bot to mine for themselves once or twice a month. Mining/ratting 23/7 is a different story though.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2011.01.05 17:47:00 - [570] Originally by: Pookie McPook The means is already in our hands. Hulkageddon. Use it. Thank you and goodnight. Yes im sure the macro ratters are heavily affected by this Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments <0>

Nicol Nicculon	Posted - 2011.01.05 22:46:00 - [571] Hi all, I'm a total EVE newb, 2.5 months in the game and flying my 3 weeks old retriever. I just read this page so far and it troubles me a lot - at least the parts that I understand (not much, YET). I still remember my endless trips to my tiny high-sec 'roid belts mining with two measly Miner I s in a Bantam yielding approx. 20 kISK per trip to save up for the Retriever. Jetcan mining lost it's value for me due to intense can flippers in the noob system. So I hurled many times between belt to station to save up for that Retriever, after some weeks real time I finally got one not long ago. And now I read there are bots making 1 MISK/min? I have no words for that - it's not funny anymore. Even if that number is too high, it's still a very drastic disturbance of the economic system - I'm quite sure I'm already suffering from it - it certainly seems to me that certain price / service quotients are highly disturbed in the market. I have been educated that hard and true work leads to true values - of course there are cheaters everywhere, as in real life, but this just makes me wanna go away. And then, on top of that, I have seen a "hulkageddon" mentioned at some places, also here, possibly a war on miners. Now I don't know yet what that is, but you certainly know that if you are going to destroy my or any other newb's Retriever, we need weeks to rebuild it, but if you go destroy a hulk of a bot, the person behind it needs just to tap 0.001% of his post stamp cash to buy and outfit a new hulk? Is this hulkageddon meant to fight the bots or to annoy the newbs even more? Sorry, if I disturbed the discussion with my clueless points.
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.01.05 22:54:00 - [572] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: KaraStarbuckThrace If it is so easy then why don't you come up with an effective method of stopping them, and I am not just talking about an idea.. actually go and create it. It's already been suggested. Limit the amount of time per day and account that can be spent ratting or mining, e.g. 2-3 hours/day. Alternatively, put an upper limit on bounties collected in 24h (including missions). Everything above the limit can go to the capsuleer orphans fund. ;-P Will it remove bots? Nope, but it will make 23/7 botting useless and it will allow human players to compete with botting income with a reasonable time investment per day. Will it affect the player-driven economy? Much less so than botting and people who complain about such a limit should get a life / find something else to do in the remaining online time, like PVP, trading, chatting ... You'd lose 70% of the population of the game over night implementing limits like that. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.01.05 23:01:00 - [573] Originally by: Barakkus Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: KaraStarbuckThrace If it is so easy then why don't you come up with an effective method of stopping them, and I am not just talking about an idea.. actually go and create it. It's already been suggested. Limit the amount of time per day and account that can be spent ratting or mining, e.g. 2-3 hours/day. Alternatively, put an upper limit on bounties collected in 24h (including missions). Everything above the limit can go to the capsuleer orphans fund. ;-P Will it remove bots? Nope, but it will make 23/7 botting useless and it will allow human players to compete with botting income with a reasonable time investment per day. Will it affect the player-driven economy? Much less so than botting and people who complain about such a limit should get a life / find something else to do in the remaining online time, like PVP, trading, chatting ... You'd lose 70% of the population of the game over night implementing limits like that. Why? Because they're bots, or because that's your estimate of the number of people who rat or mine 23/7 without botting? How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.01.05 23:05:00 - [574] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Barakkus Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: KaraStarbuckThrace If it is so easy then why don't you come up with an effective method of stopping them, and I am not just talking about an idea.. actually go and create it. It's already been suggested. Limit the amount of time per day and account that can be spent ratting or mining, e.g. 2-3 hours/day. Alternatively, put an upper limit on bounties collected in 24h (including missions). Everything above the limit can go to the capsuleer orphans fund. ;-P Will it remove bots? Nope, but it will make 23/7 botting useless and it will allow human players to compete with botting income with a reasonable time investment per day. Will it affect the player-driven economy? Much less so than botting and people who complain about such a limit should get a life / find something else to do in the remaining online time, like PVP, trading, chatting ... You'd lose 70% of the population of the game over night implementing limits like that. Why? Because they're bots, or because that's your estimate of the number of people who rat or mine 23/7 without botting? Yeah only allowing people to do stuff for 2-3 hours a day is real smart. I suppose the rest of the time you're online you must fap to **** in the in game browser while spinning your ship right? I bet their subscriber base would jump 10 fold with stupid artificial limits on what you can do in game like that. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Aelius Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2011.01.06 10:56:00 - [575] Extracted directly from one of those FREE to play games forums: Quote: Botting, macros, everything you need to know. Postby toastgodsupreme on Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:48 am PERCEPTION IS REALITY! That means if you look like a bot, fight like a bot, react like a bot, and respond like a bot, then you must be a bot. It doesn't matter if you're using a third party program to do it, or the in game macros, or some special keyboard with macros. A bot, is a bot, is a bot. So what do we consider botting? If you are AFK while your character is doing one of the following, and unable to respond to a GM's requests then you are considered a bot: * Changing targets and attacking. * Using skills/items. * Looting items. * Gathering items. So let me be very clear once again... IF YOU ARE AFK AND YOUR CHARACTER IS DOING ONE OF THOSE THINGS IN THE LIST, YOU ARE CONSIDERED BOTTING. There is absolutely no visual difference from you being afk and using macros and you using a bot. Each can use skills, loot, and change targets. So stop being ****s about it and thinking you're slick. If your character is playing the game and you are AFK, YOU ARE BOTTING AND WILL BE JAILED FOREVER IF/WHEN YOU ARE CAUGHT. :roll: All of this is common sense really. But SOME of you need it spelled out for you. So here it is, VERY clearly spelled out. And from now on, unless Erb or Goog challenges one of my jailings, I will no longer provide screenshots or videos to players. By now you should all know that I don't jail people for botting without solid proof. Oh, and the excuse of "well, I let my friend/cousin/brother/sister/etc play my account" will ALWAYS fail. Plain and simple. YOU are responsible for your account and all actions taken on it by anyone you choose to let play on it. Now CCP if even free to play games have found the solution, don't tell us that you can't... unless... as they are free to play** they aren't afraid of losing money on the accounts they ban, which you can't say the same. Right CCP?! _________________________ CSM Candidate for 2011 (soon a pretty photoshop sig) Aelius 2011 Candidacy Guide Lines
Dasola Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.06 11:27:00 - [576] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Barakkus Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: KaraStarbuckThrace If it is so easy then why don't you come up with an effective method of stopping them, and I am not just talking about an idea.. actually go and create it. It's already been suggested. Limit the amount of time per day and account that can be spent ratting or mining, e.g. 2-3 hours/day. Alternatively, put an upper limit on bounties collected in 24h (including missions). Everything above the limit can go to the capsuleer orphans fund. ;-P Will it remove bots? Nope, but it will make 23/7 botting useless and it will allow human players to compete with botting income with a reasonable time investment per day. Will it affect the player-driven economy? Much less so than botting and people who complain about such a limit should get a life / find something else to do in the remaining online time, like PVP, trading, chatting ... You'd lose 70% of the population of the game over night implementing limits like that. Why? Because they're bots, or because that's your estimate of the number of people who rat or mine 23/7 without botting? So on your opinion im bot becouse i play this game everyday anywhere from 2-3 hours to 5-9 hours. Lets see in theory i could play 23.5 hours daily. lets say they implement 3 hours limit... 3/23.5*15 = 1,91 e/month. Ok i could deal with that, but im pretty sure ccp could not. Timelimit is not answer to botting, but it would rise prices of things and make few industrials happy. (Limits supply).. Better solution would be make game such way its very very hard to bot it. Currently just about anything can be botted from mining, ratting, PI to market orders handling... Im sure everyone has seen youtube video of that grazy market bot.... What is problem is certain tasks ingame are repeative and super booring... Thats why automation was first invented... Add some random elemenents and you make much more interesting things... How about your guns could jam when your camping on gate and try to shoot someone? Take actions: A, B and C to unjam them.... or minign laser gets stuck active and is in danger to overload, take steps A, B and C to prevent disasterous events...
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.01.06 14:13:00 - [577] For pervention of mining macros, I think that there is one simple solution... Make that all good ore belts you need to scan for... so that they are not on the same place... and this static ones that only have very small roids so that new players with miner I can mine in them but if you have anything better you must scan... There is not macro that can move probes close to one of the dots on the screen to get better accuracy so that it can warp to that belt... even forums and some web based games have "click in unfinished dot" programs for log in becouse no program can see what dot is finished, what is not... and all this work becouse programs that can "see" are hard to program... and making macros that can do that would be very hard... and this mechanic will help new players to beter learn scaning that they must use later in the game... "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes"
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.01.06 15:27:00 - [578] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 06/01/2011 14:29:52 For pervention of mining macros, I think that there is one simple solution... Make that all good ore belts you need to scan for... so that they are not on the same place... and this static ones that only have very small roids so that new players with miner I can mine in them but if you have anything better you must scan... There is not macro that can move probes close to one of the dots on the screen to get better accuracy so that it can warp to that belt... even forums and some web based games have "click in unfinished dot" programs for log in becouse no program can see what dot is finished, what is not... and all this work becouse programs that can "see" are hard to program... and making macros that can do that would be very hard... and this mechanic will help new players to beter learn scaning that they must use later in the game... The botters aren't selling high end ore, they're getting the easiest to find ore and selling that. Having to scan down belts for good ore will do nothing. All you will achieve is having absolutely no belts b/c someone comes by and cleans out every belt in every system near by within an hour or two. If I'm not mistaken, when I first started playing, belts used to respawn once a week, leaving many systems with absolutely nothing to mine because people would just strip mine a whole system within an hour or two. Captchas are stupid, whether it's type in this phrase or click on this thingie, it's stupid. There is nothing you can do to eliminate bots, absolutely nothing unless you make a thin client that only streams the graphics to the user and all processing is done server side based on clicks transmitted from the thin client. That's it, and that won't happen. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
mooimafish	Posted - 2011.01.06 15:34:00 - [579] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 06/01/2011 14:29:52 For pervention of mining macros, I think that there is one simple solution... Make that all good ore belts you need to scan for... so that they are not on the same place... and this static ones that only have very small roids so that new players with miner I can mine in them but if you have anything better you must scan... There is not macro that can move probes close to one of the dots on the screen to get better accuracy so that it can warp to that belt... even forums and some web based games have "click in unfinished dot" programs for log in becouse no program can see what dot is finished, what is not... and all this work becouse programs that can "see" are hard to program... and making macros that can do that would be very hard... and this mechanic will help new players to beter learn scaning that they must use later in the game... actually moving probes wouldn't be that difficult... granted the macro would still need to hook into the client memory directly but most macros already do. this solution of yours would be temporary at best until the adapted version is released. ever play Asheron's call with decal? probably not lol. no ccp should have some kind of memory protection to detect intrusions made by 3rd party programs wait a month after logging said accounts, and then permaban all of them in one sweep. Then makers of the program would need to come up with a new version and ccp would have to keep changing the detector build so that they cannot adapt or be adapted for long. Blizzard has to deal with this all the time, ccp just doesn't want to burn the cash on it, or ban the 20k accounts that use 3rd party programs because it cuts into their profit margin by a considerable amount. heck they probably already can detect most of the intrusions already and are not doing anything because of the above reasons.
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2011.01.06 19:40:00 - [580] Ratting changes - Rats will now give no bounty but are treated like missions, where you get the mission to kill XXX and return back. However the mission will be by a neutral agent that has no affiliation with any NPC, the mission will send you different places etc and when you kill the rat you will be rewarded with X amount of ISK, do it like FW missions where it can be done in a SB but also rewards nicely too. Mining changes - only 1.0 systems will have asteroid belts on your overview with limited amounts, you will have to scan all other asteroid fields out. this will apply to ice mining too, the difference is ice mining will only have enough ice for a few people not the 98374598395385 supply it has atm. There will be more asteroid belts but have less in, there will also be alot more ice belts but with a huge reduction. Everyday that CCP stalls on fixing macros is the equivalent of 600 billion made through macros Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments <0>

Countess Ponzi	Posted - 2011.01.06 19:50:00 - [581] How long do we have to wait for an official response to this post from CCP? What does it take to get an answer to a post that is over hundreds of responses. Come on CCP. Throw us a crumb..... Please!
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.01.06 19:52:00 - [582] Originally by: Countess Ponzi How long do we have to wait for an official response to this post from CCP? What does it take to get an answer to a post that is over hundreds of responses. Come on CCP. Throw us a crumb..... Please! Why do they need to respond to this particular thread when they have responded to half of the 8 billion threads that have come before this one on the same subject? Repeating themselves won't do any good either. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:01:00 - [583] Originally by: Barakkus Originally by: Countess Ponzi How long do we have to wait for an official response to this post from CCP? What does it take to get an answer to a post that is over hundreds of responses. Come on CCP. Throw us a crumb..... Please! Why do they need to respond to this particular thread when they have responded to half of the 8 billion threads that have come before this one on the same subject? Repeating themselves won't do any good either. The response to those other threads has been either 'Use the other thread. Thread closed.' Or 'RMT is bad, Mkay? Buy plex,' Some of us want to hear that CCP actually understands that RMT and botting are not the same thing, they see it as a real problem that needs to be dealt with, and that they will be taking action before EvE becomes Bots Online.
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:14:00 - [584] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Originally by: Barakkus Originally by: Countess Ponzi How long do we have to wait for an official response to this post from CCP? What does it take to get an answer to a post that is over hundreds of responses. Come on CCP. Throw us a crumb..... Please! Why do they need to respond to this particular thread when they have responded to half of the 8 billion threads that have come before this one on the same subject? Repeating themselves won't do any good either. The response to those other threads has been either 'Use the other thread. Thread closed.' Or 'RMT is bad, Mkay? Buy plex,' Some of us want to hear that CCP actually understands that RMT and botting are not the same thing, they see it as a real problem that needs to be dealt with, and that they will be taking action before EvE becomes Bots Online. They've already stated that a billion times over. Just because the only things you've noticed are thread locking doesn't mean they haven't said it like a billion times before. They also take great pride in posting their unholy rage results when applicable. I'm not saying they're doing a good job with anything, but they're doing as much as they can and don't need to be running around posting the same responses repeatedly to the same tired old thread subjects. If they decide to post great, if they don't then who cares? This topic has been discussed to death by all the arm chair game developers that play this game. Not a single person comes up with anything realistic or anything better than what CCP has already been doing for years. All the self proclaimed game design experts in this thread need to go outside and stop worrying about things that are already being handled. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:19:00 - [585] Originally by: Countess Ponzi How long do we have to wait for an official response to this post from CCP? What does it take to get an answer to a post that is over hundreds of responses. Come on CCP. Throw us a crumb..... Please! They've posted devblogs on this topic recently, I believe. Maybe you should go read them?
Countess Ponzi	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:20:00 - [586] If it is being handle, just show us the results....
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:21:00 - [587] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 06/01/2011 20:24:47 Originally by: Dasola So on your opinion im bot becouse i play this game everyday anywhere from 2-3 hours to 5-9 hours. If all you ever do is ratting or mining and you spend no online time PVPing, chatting, sorting your inventory, travelling a long way, just being idle, then you probably are a bot, yes. Quote: Timelimit is not answer to botting, but it would rise prices of things and make few industrials happy. (Limits supply).. So botting is OK now because it lowers prices? Quote: Better solution would be make game such way its very very hard to bot it. Currently just about anything can be botted from mining, There is no such way, anything a human capable of playing EVE could do, bots can be written to do also. At some point probably some people will also add nearly Turing test capable chatting code to bots in case a GM tries to talk to them ... Such measures would just annoy people, introduce new bugs, stall development on other parts of the game. The suggested time limit should be enforced on the ISK-earning activity only, not on idle time, PVPing etc. ... That gives humans a clear advantage because compared to bots, they cannot use their play time as efficiently. So while a bot would run into a 3 hour limit on ratting after 3 hours, a human would hit it after 5-6 hours because he needs to go AFK occasionally, chat etc. ... Also, a maximum number of missions giving rewards (even if someone else took the mission and hands it in for the fleet) per account and day would make sense. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:25:00 - [588] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 06/01/2011 20:25:57 Originally by: Pan Crastus At some point probably some people will also add nearly Turing test capable chatting code to bots in case a GM tries to talk to them ... In this case the bot author's contribution to computer science would IMO outshine any damage he might have done to this game
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:40:00 - [589] Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 06/01/2011 20:25:57 Originally by: Pan Crastus At some point probably some people will also add nearly Turing test capable chatting code to bots in case a GM tries to talk to them ... In this case the bot author's contribution to computer science would IMO outshine any damage he might have done to this game There has been good progress in that field in the past ~10 years, take a look at alicebot ... Tailoring it for discussions with EVE players/GMs is probably not very hard. ;-) How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:46:00 - [590] Originally by: Barakkus They've already stated that a billion times over. Just because the only things you've noticed are thread locking doesn't mean they haven't said it like a billion times before. They also take great pride in posting their unholy rage results when applicable. Show me a link where CCP acknowledges that EvE has a problem with botting that is independent of RMT, and states that they will deal with that problem beyond copy/pasting a snip from the EULA and suggesting that a petition be submitted. Yes, they love to say that Unholy Rage killed off thousands of RMT accounts. That was 18 months ago, and targeted RMT. This is today, when a player that chooses not to pay for isk downloads a bot program and bypasses the whole issue of RMT. Originally by: Selinate They've posted devblogs on this topic recently, I believe. Maybe you should go read them? Maybe you should go read the Dev Blog again. If you want a tldr, I think SkinSin summed it up pretty well: Originally by: SkinSin Well I read the devblog and the gist of it was: 1) We know about RMT. 2) We continue to do something about it. 3) Buy plex. It was a particularly unenlightening devblog and didn't add any more information than we already know. To be honest, GM Grimmi might as well have not bothered it was that pointless!

Barakkus	Posted - 2011.01.06 20:49:00 - [591] Originally by: Countess Ponzi If it is being handle, just show us the results.... How about not being lazy and doing your own research? There is a devblog showing the results of processor usage in the cluster after one particular unholy rage floating around. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.06 21:49:00 - [592] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Originally by: SkinSin Well I read the devblog and the gist of it was: 1) We know about RMT. 2) We continue to do something about it. 3) Buy plex. It was a particularly unenlightening devblog and didn't add any more information than we already know. To be honest, GM Grimmi might as well have not bothered it was that pointless! ...Wtf more do you want? You want the specifics of what they're doing about it? That defeats the purpose of trying to combat a problem like this if they tell you how they're combating it... I mean srsly, if CCP says they're continuing to do something about botting, then that's all the info I need...
Pookie McPook	Posted - 2011.01.07 12:35:00 - [593] Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 06/01/2011 20:25:57 Originally by: Pan Crastus At some point probably some people will also add nearly Turing test capable chatting code to bots in case a GM tries to talk to them ... In this case the bot author's contribution to computer science would IMO outshine any damage he might have done to this game Melon? With due acknowlegment to Autocamp 2000 ----- Marmite. Rocket fuel of champions.
Superpossee	Posted - 2011.01.08 00:54:00 - [594] Originally by: Selinate Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Originally by: SkinSin Well I read the devblog and the gist of it was: 1) We know about RMT. 2) We continue to do something about it. 3) Buy plex. It was a particularly unenlightening devblog and didn't add any more information than we already know. To be honest, GM Grimmi might as well have not bothered it was that pointless! ...Wtf more do you want? You want the specifics of what they're doing about it? That defeats the purpose of trying to combat a problem like this if they tell you how they're combating it... I mean srsly, if CCP says they're continuing to do something about botting, then that's all the info I need... Since nothing has improved in that matter and is becoming worse everyday.. no sir, SAYING they are doing "something" is not all the info people need to trust in the game's fairplay
Zia Aiz	Posted - 2011.01.08 14:10:00 - [595] Originally by: SweetHoney Edited by: SweetHoney on 18/12/2010 08:56:05 I did not read it all the pages but I just leave this article here http://evenews24.com/2010/12/08/rmt-uncovered-the-interview Linkage Reading that actually made me somewhat concerned what name EvE online is gonna get if this isn't stopped. Or what it will do to the game. CCP is the only one able to do anything about it. But then i read that botters use plex to extend their accounts, and plex is only generated by people who bought it from CCP. I also notice that plex isk cost seem to increase, which would suggest that there is more demand for plex then there is supply. In other words, more bots = more plex = more profit for CCP. Other then through petition, can't say i've seen CCP doing much about it. Can't some sort of punkbuster program required to run with eve that scans the memory solve this? I suppose hackers would find ways around it anyway, but might be worth it if it's updated often enough.
Corcyrus Endymion Caldari Excessum Corporation Excessum Gaming	Posted - 2011.01.08 14:29:00 - [596] Originally by: Zia Aiz Originally by: SweetHoney Edited by: SweetHoney on 18/12/2010 08:56:05 I did not read it all the pages but I just leave this article here http://evenews24.com/2010/12/08/rmt-uncovered-the-interview Linkage Reading that actually made me somewhat concerned what name EvE online is gonna get if this isn't stopped. Or what it will do to the game. CCP is the only one able to do anything about it. But then i read that botters use plex to extend their accounts, and plex is only generated by people who bought it from CCP. I also notice that plex isk cost seem to increase, which would suggest that there is more demand for plex then there is supply. In other words, more bots = more plex = more profit for CCP. Other then through petition, can't say i've seen CCP doing much about it. Can't some sort of punkbuster program required to run with eve that scans the memory solve this? I suppose hackers would find ways around it anyway, but might be worth it if it's updated often enough. More bots, more isk, more inflation, harder to enter the game for new players, bad for game. I'd be more than happy with a proper Warden.
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.01.10 22:46:00 - [597] and wha tbout idea to... maybe to make NPCs that guard belts faster, smarter, stronger and that they warp scramble... real ppl will need to put some extra defence on ships and use drones to kill them before warping out... ppl in smaller ships will warp out quicker then hulks so new players will be safe... or ppl will mine in groups with defance ship... if NPCs can warp scramble macros that will make them much less cost-effective becouse they will stuck in belts or be killed if they dont have defence at all... and i think that macro users dont want to "rescue" their bots every 10 mins...
Joshua Cy	Posted - 2011.01.11 01:00:00 - [598] Just looked at the latest CSM minutes. Someone posted links to all 3 sets of them. Bots and RMT is only briefly mentioned. Apparently CCP was closed lipped about it to the CSM, saying about the same as we got with the "raging on" blog. So the problem will continue to fester.
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2011.01.11 01:50:00 - [599] Timelimits are a NO GO. Else you would have to limit the time you can sit cloaked at a gate too. Ever heared of alarm-bots? they inform you via SMS when a red blob jumps in your system. They do nothing but sit cloaked and scan the local, when number of red > X they send a SMS to a given number. You would have to limit the number of transactions you can make too. Ever heared of Jita-Bots? They do nothing but scan the marked for cheap stuff, buy it, sell it again OR all this 0.01 gamers, half of them are BOTS! Scan your offers, if someone underbit your offer change it by -0.01 ISK. Time-/Counter-Limits are a NO GO as there are 24/7 bots anywhere. Even for PvP! And do you realy want to limit yourselve? And how will you count it? Just for one Char? No prob, everone can creat 3 anyway. One ACC? ROFL! Boters very likely use planty of ACC (10+++++). It will just rise the ISK/Ç$ price.
Aessoroz	Posted - 2011.01.11 03:23:00 - [600] Edited by: Aessoroz on 11/01/2011 03:25:08 Originally by: mooimafish no ccp should have some kind of memory protection to detect intrusions made by 3rd party programs wait a month after logging said accounts, and then permaban all of them in one sweep. Then makers of the program would need to come up with a new version and ccp would have to keep changing the detector build so that they cannot adapt or be adapted for long. Blizzard has to deal with this all the time, ccp just doesn't want to burn the cash on it, or ban the 20k accounts that use 3rd party programs because it cuts into their profit margin by a considerable amount. heck they probably already can detect most of the intrusions already and are not doing anything because of the above reasons. As someone who used to write bots for other games(unreal engine via reverse engineering of the loaded libraries in memory to generate C++ headers to hook into the games natively). The said memory protection would be loaded into memory, the 3rd party program modifies memory, it's kind of straight foward to see that the memory protection can just be overwritten before doing anything else... On a side note, the ratting/mining bots for eve ARE NOT memory modifying or reading. They are mainly ocr based that essentially hook into directx or take "screenshots" constantly and feed that to the ocr portion of the code or something to identify the control positions and other stuff on the overview. They are very sensitive to the UI being out of position, especially the overview to the point they force users to use specific ui settings to make it easier to "read" or else it won't work.

Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2011.01.11 05:02:00 - [601] Originally by: Aelius Extracted directly from one of those FREE to play games forums: Quote: Botting, macros, everything you need to know. Postby toastgodsupreme on Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:48 am PERCEPTION IS REALITY! That means if you look like a bot, fight like a bot, react like a bot, and respond like a bot, then you must be a bot. It doesn't matter if you're using a third party program to do it, or the in game macros, or some special keyboard with macros. A bot, is a bot, is a bot. So what do we consider botting? If you are AFK while your character is doing one of the following, and unable to respond to a GM's requests then you are considered a bot: * Changing targets and attacking. * Using skills/items. * Looting items. * Gathering items. So let me be very clear once again... IF YOU ARE AFK AND YOUR CHARACTER IS DOING ONE OF THOSE THINGS IN THE LIST, YOU ARE CONSIDERED BOTTING. There is absolutely no visual difference from you being afk and using macros and you using a bot. Each can use skills, loot, and change targets. So stop being ****s about it and thinking you're slick. If your character is playing the game and you are AFK, YOU ARE BOTTING AND WILL BE JAILED FOREVER IF/WHEN YOU ARE CAUGHT. :roll: All of this is common sense really. But SOME of you need it spelled out for you. So here it is, VERY clearly spelled out. And from now on, unless Erb or Goog challenges one of my jailings, I will no longer provide screenshots or videos to players. By now you should all know that I don't jail people for botting without solid proof. Oh, and the excuse of "well, I let my friend/cousin/brother/sister/etc play my account" will ALWAYS fail. Plain and simple. YOU are responsible for your account and all actions taken on it by anyone you choose to let play on it. Now CCP if even free to play games have found the solution, don't tell us that you can't... unless... as they are free to play they aren't afraid of losing money on the accounts they ban, which you can't say the same. Right CCP?! WoW has a somewhat similiar rule Back in the glorius days of grind grind grind (not that its any different now), I use to end up in a small cave in western feralas, this area use to be rich for golden pearls which sold nicely. During this time GMs contacted me on more than one occasion and we always got in a nice conversation, I did ask "hmm so why did you contact me?" each time and got replies like "health & safety really, just seeing if everything is ok since you have been online for a bit". Obviously he wanted to see if I was a bot but couldnt say that, anyway with 450+ supercarriers getting pumped out a month I dont think this is something that should be ignored or marked as 'low priority'. Originally by:** Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments <0>
Alara IonStorm	Posted - 2011.01.11 05:05:00 - [602] 600th Super Snipe -- Originally by: NoNah I'm afraid you can't really expect a decent answer as the new generation of posters arrived. Alara and her merry crew just isn't that interested in anything constructive.
Selinate Amarr Wardens of the Void	Posted - 2011.01.11 05:10:00 - [603] "fed"
Liliane Woodhead Intergalactic Charwomen	Posted - 2011.01.11 06:01:00 - [604] Edited by: Liliane Woodhead on 11/01/2011 06:04:45 Edited by: Liliane Woodhead on 11/01/2011 06:03:42 Good Evening, EVE General Discussion .. i am german that "giggles" translate to hi hi fo huuuuhahahahah hihiho or something. Fangirl on~ I love the way they do ( esp. Oveur ) Fangirl off~ A tip from me .... just play that game one year not. ( you believe now that i am german ? grammar ) That opens your mind for a fresh new way that can only give "Hakle feucht" or Eve to you. Excuse me for the german things .... i am not german, no :P edit: I hope you can see through it. "I am german is a quote." edit: Is a quote!
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2011.01.12 14:38:00 - [605] Trader bot publically released...another game element screwed by macroers. Well I guess it was pretty boring anyway (same with ratting and mining).
Tornan Minmatar Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.01.12 15:04:00 - [606] CCP likes bots
DR Blues	Posted - 2011.01.12 15:21:00 - [607] There is a simple solution to reduce botting and that is to make ratting and mining more exploration dependable. It's harder to run scripts when you need to scan first. More sites and less belts in local.
Othran Ad Infernum	Posted - 2011.01.13 07:51:00 - [608] Edited by: Othran on 13/01/2011 07:51:37 Originally by: Tornan CCP likes bots A little unfair perhaps? The truth of the matter however is that CCP doesn't care about bots which are not directly involved in RMT. That is the only conclusion a reasonable person can make. I know I'm never wasting my time raising another petition on the matter anyway. Anybody who asks me about Eve now gets told that its unlikely they will ever be able to compete with established players/corps (well botters really). Nothing to do with SP. Everything to do with ISK "earned" while you're not even in the same room/building as the client. Do the newbies/potential players a favour and tell them the truth - there really is no point in most of them wasting their time trying to play Eve "honestly".
Dev Jah	Posted - 2011.01.13 10:52:00 - [609] Trying to figure out whether to play eve or not I wanted to know how other new players felt about bots so I made another thread about bots in the new players forum that got locked. Originally by: Dev Jah Notes: Players who are not using bots directly or indirectly do not benefit from any kind of botting in any way at all. I've read some arguments about bots causing cheaper prices on ships and so on. Well, if you're mentally challenged you might very well believe so. But its not right, CCP would only have to increase the speed of mining/reduce material cost of production etc etc if they find the current market of EVE desirable, if botting would all of a sudden disappear. Originally by: ShahFluffers Once the bot has enough ore/minerals collected, it dumps it on the market. With the flood of new ores/minerals the market becomes "saturated" and thus prices fall (supply is exceeding demand). With the cheaper prices for ores/minerals the cost to build ships, modules, and various other things becomes less expensive... and so THEIR prices fall as well. ... To touch on what you said... about CCP modifying the yields and/or production costs... it doesn't work. If you increase the production costs of things, more bots are created to compensate and actual players that specialize in mining and industry get the shaft (as they have to modify their entire production lines). If you decrease the yields that you can mine, the bots will spread out and cover more ground to make up for the loss. What I meant was, if CCP would magically somehow find a way to remove 100% of the bots at once, the incoming supply of materials probably would get cut down. Lets say 50%, however if CCP was happy with how the market was balanced when the bots were active all they then would have to do would be to decrease the material cost of production by 50% or increase mining yield or something, to offset the reduction of materials. Even with how it looks today like you say bots flooding the market causing cheaper prices, if you ever conduct any sort of pvp at all your eventually gonna stumble upon some of the bot users who will, compared to you, have limitless funds.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.01.13 11:09:00 - [610] Originally by: Dev Jah What I meant was, if CCP would magically somehow find a way to remove 100% of the bots at once, the incoming supply of materials probably would get cut down. Lets say 50%, however if CCP was happy with how the market was balanced when the bots were active all they then would have to do would be to decrease the material cost of production by 50% or increase mining yield or something, to offset the reduction of materials. this. so many people who buy into the "sandbox" marketing and don't seem to realize that CCP can engineer any economic equilibrium it deems to be desirable.

Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.01.13 11:13:00 - [611] Have you ever seen that southpark episode where they try to kill Walmart? They can't quite get to the back of the Walmart so they can destroy the mirror because the deals are "just to good?" Bots are kind of like this... Traders and miners want them gone so they can make more profits and increase market prices. I on the other hand have 0 interests in trading, mining or the .01 mini-game. People like myself, which constitutes a vast portion of the EVE Community mind you, truly benefit from a saturated market filled with cheap crap. Removing of Bots will make me have to pay more in the Market Place. Why would I want that to happen? I Don't Live In 0.0 But If I Did... I probably would like all those POS's fueled now wouldn't I? I mean, I don't want to fuel those things, but I bet someone out there might want to it for my CEO for Tree-fifty real life monies now wouldn't they? I might also like the sweet area of Null Sec that I was ISK whoring in [RMT Purchased Diplomacy], and I might also like the unending train of Supercapitals that I get to fly [RMT Purchased Epeen] People make millions of dollars in MMO's like second-life, and it is natural that people will figure out how to fly under the radar and do it here too. It is fueled by the egos and greed of the oldest players in the game, hording Tech II BPO's and herding sheep like you into battle so they can mine moon goo. You want to end RMT? Then mass drop your alliance and turn 0.0 into a everyman for himself free-for all You want to end Bots? Build your own crap and don't make other people do it for you.
sarah mcjimmy	Posted - 2011.01.13 18:37:00 - [612] needless bump
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.01.13 21:56:00 - [613] Edited by: yani dumyat on 13/01/2011 21:59:12 Originally by: Eternum Praetorian People like myself, which constitutes a vast portion of the EVE Community mind you, truly benefit from a saturated market filled with cheap crap. Removing of Bots will make me have to pay more in the Market Place. Why would I want that to happen? You're missing something here, something that can be characterised by the term 'cheap crap'. The cheaper things become the more crap they seem to you, if T2 cruisers are cheap enough for you to lose one every day and not care then you get bored of them quickly. Alternatively if you can only afford to lose one T2 cruiser each month then it becomes special to fly one, it's that ship you've been saving for weeks to buy and the rush of taking it in to combat. The only thing that 'a saturated market filled with cheap crap' does for the average player is devalue the game experience. I'd happily see prices quadruple and T1 cruisers become something more than a laughing stock in 0.0 fleets again, battleships be a pain to lose and supercaps become rare. Originally by: Eternum Praetorian I Don't Live In 0.0 But If I Did... I probably would like all those POS's fuelled now wouldn't I? I mean, I don't want to fuel those things, but I bet someone out there might want to it for my CEO for Tree-fifty real life monies now wouldn't they? I might also like the sweet area of Null Sec that I was ISK whoring in [RMT Purchased Diplomacy], and I might also like the unending train of Supercapitals that I get to fly [RMT Purchased Epeen] Or you could make do with a quarter the number of posses, lets face it they're pretty horrible things, it staggers me that so many people can be bothered with them. As for the endless stream of supercaps, that's fine in alliance warfare but when SC's are being dropped on FW pubbies in rifters you know there's a problem. To borrow your terminology it's not 'RMT Purchased Epeen' so much as RMT influenced impotence. If you need a fleet of supercaps to get your epeen up then you'll be in need of some viagra soon. Bots do not enhance the game for your average player in any shape or form. Quite the opposite. _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Berikath	Posted - 2011.01.13 22:19:00 - [614] Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 13/01/2011 07:51:37 Originally by: Tornan CCP likes bots A little unfair perhaps? The truth of the matter however is that CCP doesn't care about bots which are not directly involved in RMT or causing disproportionately large server loads. Fixed that for ya. They don't like having to buy bigger servers, either. * [ SIG] * Wish list for PI: One-click input routing Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! [ /sig ]
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.01.13 22:50:00 - [615] Something that I'd love to get an answer to is this: What is the impact of botting on your average Joe? Does anyone have a speculation on the quantities of isk and minerals brought in to the game through botting? _______ Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel.
Quemist	Posted - 2011.01.13 22:57:00 - [616] A metric ** ton of ISK is brought in, more than legitimate players account for. Constant 0.0 ratting dwarfs any sort of mission whoring over time. You would think inflation would happen right? Bots are also producing a metric ** ton of building materials but not as much compared to bounties.
Nuhm DeAra	Posted - 2011.01.13 23:00:00 - [617] FIX THE TITLE OF THE THREAD.
MataHarry Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2011.01.13 23:13:00 - [618] yes stop rmt and botting somehow !
Rubet Gold	Posted - 2011.01.13 23:15:00 - [619] Currency NO-Trade All Items NO-Trade RMT Gone Bots Gone That is All.....
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.01.13 23:30:00 - [620] Originally by: yani dumyat The term 'cheap crap'. The cheaper things become the more crap they seem to you, if T2 cruisers are cheap enough for you to lose one every day and not care then you get bored of them quickly. Alternatively if you can only afford to lose one T2 cruiser each month then it becomes special to fly one, it's that ship you've been saving for weeks to buy and the rush of taking it in to combat. Vastly incorrect... I would prefer much cheaper tech II cruiser, and I would not get bored burning up Vagabonds everyday. Nor would the people who are like me. They are more fun to fly, and thus a world where people are in them more often appeals to me. on top of that, I am very much aware of what the markup on Vagabonds are. Builders are getting away with highway robbery now, even with the bots. Originally by: yani dumyat Or you could make do with a quarter the number of posses, lets face it they're pretty horrible things, it staggers me that so many people can be bothered with them. As for the endless stream of supercaps, that's fine in alliance warfare but when SC's are being dropped on FW pubbies in rifters you know there's a problem. To borrow your terminology it's not 'RMT Purchased Epeen' so much as RMT influenced impotence. If you need a fleet of supercaps to get your epeen up then you'll be in need of some viagra soon. This is 100% on CCP and has nothing to do with Bots or RMT. CCP balances the game mechanics, and not only are they OK with FW pubbies dropping SC's they are making Faction Versions of those SC's and (rumor has it) even larger Hive ships to enhance the blobs of 0.0. RMT and Bots are merely an after effect of the direction that CCP has taken this game. You know, that law of Physics called "Cause and Effect?" Originally by: yani dumyat Bots do not enhance the game for your average player in any shape or form. Quite the opposite. Yes they do, because a 1 day old character can fly to Jita and literally buy ANYTHING if they have enough ISK. This was not even possible when EVE was first created. Bots could actually be considered a control mechanism to keep market manipulation at a reasonable ground floor.

Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.01.13 23:52:00 - [621] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian RMT and Bots are merely an after effect of the direction that CCP has taken this game. You know, that law of Physics called "Cause and Effect?" Too true. CCP changed course and courted the kiddies that are more interested in having the bigger better thing and having it now, rather than those that enjoy earning achievement more than having it. CCP asked for it & now they have it.
Dev Jah	Posted - 2011.01.14 00:27:00 - [622] I like how this thread has been selected to be the one and only thread about botting, with a great thread title and really informative OP post. /sarcasm Originally by: yani dumyat Something that I'd love to get an answer to is this: What is the impact of botting on your average Joe? Does anyone have a speculation on the quantities of isk and minerals brought in to the game through botting? I have no idea about actual quantities and values, but this is how it works out in the end I believe: Lets say there are 100 players, each player having the average income = x. So each player makes the same amount of income x, 1% of the total income each, no one bots and they are all equally competitive in relation to time invested. Now lets say 10% of the player base starts botting resulting in 10 times the income of the normal player base, that is 10 players making 10x each. We now have 90 players making a total of 90x and 10 players making a total of 100x through botting, amounting to 190x total. 10 players covering 52% of the market through cheating, 90 players covering 47% of the market through legit playing. Now each income X is no longer 1% of the total income, each income X is instead 100/190 = 0,526...% of the total income. A normal player is now 0,526% competitive compared to a botter being 10 times as competetive, 5,26%. These are values pulled out of my ass, it's a lot simplified and probably (somewhat) flawed
Doctor Steinsbrow Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.01.14 00:34:00 - [623] makes some noise \|\<o>/\| \|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\| \|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\| \|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\| \\|CCP\|/ -\|\|\|\|\|\|\|- -\|\|\|\|\|\|\|- ONE DOES NOT SIMPLY ~~WALK~~ WARP INTO ~~MORDOR~~ J7HZ-F!
Dev Jah	Posted - 2011.01.14 01:33:00 - [624] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Traders and miners want them gone so they can make more profits and increase market prices. I on the other hand have 0 interests in trading, mining or the .01 mini-game. People like myself, which constitutes a vast portion of the EVE Community mind you, truly benefit from a saturated market filled with cheap crap. Removing of Bots will make me have to pay more in the Market Place. Why would I want that to happen? ... on top of that, I am very much aware of what the markup on Vagabonds are. Builders are getting away with highway robbery now, even with the bots. Rolling Eyes So because you don't think its fair or whatever that there are players playing the market through implemented game features and mechanism, bots are justified? Never mind botters using external programs to read/modify the eve-client and automate actions Relatively, you are not gaining any advantage over anybody else, you are however at a huge disadvantage to players who are directly or indirectly benefiting from botting. Yes you might get the new ship of the line in order to conduct higher levels off pve'ing faster, but at the same time you will probably get bored faster. Conduction pvp'ing you're gaining no advantage over other legit players, though huge disadvantages against botters... Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Vastly incorrect... I would prefer much cheaper tech II cruiser, and I would not get bored burning up Vagabonds everyday. Nor would the people who are like me. They are more fun to fly, and thus a world where people are in them more often appeals to me. ... Yes they do, because a 1 day old character can fly to Jita and literally buy ANYTHING if they have enough ISK. This was not even possible when EVE was first created. Bots could actually be considered a control mechanism to keep market manipulation at a reasonable ground floor. Not a valid argument to justify botters... Read: Originally by: Dev Jah What I meant was, if CCP would magically somehow find a way to remove 100% of the bots at once, the incoming supply of materials probably would get cut down. Lets say 50%, however if CCP was happy with how the market was balanced when the bots were active all they then would have to do would be to decrease the material cost of production by 50% or increase mining yield or something, to offset the reduction of materials. Botters are gone, you're still able to use the same amount of space pixels while you don't have to deal with huge disadvantages with players who bot. Originally by: Eternum Praetorian This is 100% on CCP and has nothing to do with Bots or RMT. CCP balances the game mechanics, and not only are they OK with FW pubbies dropping SC's they are making Faction Versions of those SC's and (rumor has it) even larger Hive ships to enhance the blobs of 0.0. RMT and Bots are merely an after effect of the direction that CCP has taken this game. You know, that law of Physics called "Cause and Effect?" So what? Does this somehow justify bots? Would eve not be a better game would all botting be gone?
Blacksquirrel	Posted - 2011.01.14 01:36:00 - [625] Could add some PB type software that checks to see for client tampering/scripting. Thats essentially what bots are is conditional scripts.
Eternum Praetorian	Posted - 2011.01.14 01:55:00 - [626] Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 14/01/2011 01:56:52 Originally by: Dev Jah Stuff... Lots Never did I say Bots were justified... I merely stated basic facts. Go back and read it better. I don't build, bot, trade, manufacture, mine or run missions... I just casually PVP. I do not like Bots or RMT either, but that does not mean that ultimately both things being in this game do not benefit me and people like me.
Dev Jah	Posted - 2011.01.14 02:14:00 - [627] Well then I must have misunderstood you, though what I was trying to say is that you do not ultimately benefit of it, especially if all you do is pvp. Or well, if you get a lot of easy, juice targets thanks botters not knowing how to play spending a lot on their ships lol
Flex Carter Caldari Independant Mining Association	Posted - 2011.01.14 08:30:00 - [628] What are you guys babbling about? Botters are the ****nit... They keep New Eden supplied with resources with little to no effort what-so-ever. Thank goodness CCP allows players to purchase such resources with real currency... If only we can get this game to go F2P.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.01.14 09:39:00 - [629] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 14/01/2011 09:43:19 Quote: People like myself, which constitutes a vast portion of the EVE Community mind you, truly benefit from a saturated market filled with cheap crap Benefitting off a saturated market filled with cheap crap and having generally no "death penalty" was the premise at the foundation of Warhammer Online. As beta player, I have seen it tank HARD exactly because of its foundation. You only get long term satisfaction and ultimately subscriptions if you have the thrill of achieving something that can cost you dearly. Not the other way around. Edit: Of course CCP are going to tolerate botting and people with your mentality now, they started some time ago once they understood the game is nearing its peak life cycle. They want to squeeze out the most money before EvE starts to decline (very slowly I hope, it's still a beautyful concept game). They need idiots inadequate to win in this game but with big RL wallets to join and let them feed their next products so they can plan their long term company future. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Faile Leahan	Posted - 2011.01.14 11:40:00 - [630] I had mostly been avoiding this topic but as things have transpired I felt I should add my bit. Botters in essence increase "supply". The advantage is such that they are able to operate at say 3x the speed of an average player. When coupled with multiple account this can go up to I would estimate to 9x. So, a botter is able to deliver about 9x what a normal player can from my estimations. Now I see alot of posts on here who fear what it would do to their eve economy. If all the botters were to be banned yes supply of goods would drop. Significantly I believe. As we have all been told and seen in life. When supply exceeds demand then competitive suppliers drop their prices. When demand exceeds supply it pushes up prices however it also gives rise to something else, something called opportunity. From what I have seen prices in eve dont seem to fluctuate that often. If 5 alliances were building 3 titans each at the same time the materials required would hardly be a drop in the ocean to the overall eve economy and the excessive industry supply we see right now. In my opinion this is not an ideal situation. As prices of ships shot through the roof if all botters were banned then it is in the legitimate industry players who benefit. The people who would ultimately lose are mission runners. Their income is fairly fixed between bounties, LP, salvage and loot. Their isk wouldn't stretch as far as it does now. anyhow. Thats my 5 cents I would however like to point out we may have to give ccp a medal for this. The honest man is complaining that he cannot make an honest buck or produce as much as a robot can, and this is how far into the future?

Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2011.01.14 14:50:00 - [631] Originally by: CSM CCP Minutes Discussion then turned to the issue of botting and RMT, and what could be done to reduce their impact on the game. As this discussion involved potential countermeasures, it is sealed under NDA. Source I find it funny how out of the whole thing this discussion was the shortest, I understand that you cant tell us some stuff but you could have atleast told us the following. 1. Will macro ratting and macro mining be targeted 2. When can players expect to see a change 3. Can incursions be changed to affect botting (ie warp jamming etc) The CSM have already stated that CCP have said they would look into RMT in 2011 or so, which sounds really bad, is this still the case or will CCP look at both RMT & botting THIS YEAR Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments <0>
Sixtina KL The Shoop Group	Posted - 2011.01.14 15:36:00 - [632] Originally by: Kalle Demos The CSM have already stated that CCP have said they would look into RMT in 2011 or so, which sounds really bad, is this still the case or will CCP look at both RMT & botting THIS YEAR Hmmm... (getCurrentYear().equals("2011")) Function returns "true" \o/ __________________________________
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2011.01.14 15:43:00 - [633] Originally by: Sixtina KL Originally by: Kalle Demos The CSM have already stated that CCP have said they would look into RMT in 2011 or so, which sounds really bad, is this still the case or will CCP look at both RMT & botting THIS YEAR Hmmm... (getCurrentYear().equals("2011")) Function returns "true" \o/ Guess you missed the 'or so' part Originally by: Kool StoryBro <--- Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed. Random forum moments <0>
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.01.14 18:25:00 - [634] Originally by: Kalle Demos Originally by: CSM CCP Minutes Discussion then turned to the issue of botting and RMT, and what could be done to reduce their impact on the game. As this discussion involved potential countermeasures, it is sealed under NDA. Source I find it funny how out of the whole thing this discussion was the shortest, I understand that you cant tell us some stuff but you could have atleast told us the following. 1. Will macro ratting and macro mining be targeted 2. When can players expect to see a change 3. Can incursions be changed to affect botting (ie warp jamming etc) The CSM have already stated that CCP have said they would look into RMT in 2011 or so, which sounds really bad, is this still the case or will CCP look at both RMT & botting THIS YEAR CCP, will hide behind the NDA on all those points as they might tip botters off when in reality the answer is probably something more like they aren't going after them unless RMT is involved, change will happen once they pencil in a team and allocate people to actually do something. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.01.14 18:34:00 - [635] Originally by: Bhattran ...change will happen once they pencil in a team and allocate people to actually do something. 18 months.
Solena Rain	Posted - 2011.01.14 19:12:00 - [636] Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: Kalle Demos Originally by: CSM CCP Minutes Discussion then turned to the issue of botting and RMT, and what could be done to reduce their impact on the game. As this discussion involved potential countermeasures, it is sealed under NDA. Source I find it funny how out of the whole thing this discussion was the shortest, I understand that you cant tell us some stuff but you could have atleast told us the following. 1. Will macro ratting and macro mining be targeted 2. When can players expect to see a change 3. Can incursions be changed to affect botting (ie warp jamming etc) The CSM have already stated that CCP have said they would look into RMT in 2011 or so, which sounds really bad, is this still the case or will CCP look at both RMT & botting THIS YEAR CCP, will hide behind the NDA on all those points as they might tip botters off when in reality the answer is probably something more like they aren't going after them unless RMT is involved, change will happen once they pencil in a team and allocate people to actually do something. "They aren't going after them" first, terrible sentence structure, second reading and comprehension is not your strong point is it? Incursion is directly targeting botters. Are you not aware of the new features?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.14 22:22:00 - [637] Hi. I believe this RMT is not permitted for discussion on forums because it is real money trade ... Thanks. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Go vote! Put voice for silent majority. LOVE PVP, HATE grief
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.01.15 03:40:00 - [638] Originally by: Solena Rain Originally by: Bhattran Originally by: Kalle Demos Originally by: CSM CCP Minutes Discussion then turned to the issue of botting and RMT, and what could be done to reduce their impact on the game. As this discussion involved potential countermeasures, it is sealed under NDA. Source I find it funny how out of the whole thing this discussion was the shortest, I understand that you cant tell us some stuff but you could have atleast told us the following. 1. Will macro ratting and macro mining be targeted 2. When can players expect to see a change 3. Can incursions be changed to affect botting (ie warp jamming etc) The CSM have already stated that CCP have said they would look into RMT in 2011 or so, which sounds really bad, is this still the case or will CCP look at both RMT & botting THIS YEAR CCP, will hide behind the NDA on all those points as they might tip botters off when in reality the answer is probably something more like they aren't going after them unless RMT is involved, change will happen once they pencil in a team and allocate people to actually do something. "They aren't going after them" first, terrible sentence structure, second reading and comprehension is not your strong point is it? Incursion is directly targeting botters. Are you not aware of the new features? Thanks, you might look at your own reading comprehension and understanding of the situation with botting and game mechanics if you think Incursions is directly targeting botters. Incursions at best will be a minor annoyance to botters for the time they last if the botters don't leave the systems affected. They will be far more of a 'problem' for real players grinding with limited time to play who don't move, over bots that run hours on end everyday. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.01.21 11:27:00 - [639] Ok ppl... new avatars are great and all but don't forget more important things in EVE that need DEVs attention... And i think that Botting and RMT problem must be one of the priorities. "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes"
Artisan Botanist Minmatar Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2011.01.21 11:28:00 - [640] Thanks for the bump, was looking for this thread earlier You probably will need to bump it on Feb 5th onwards, when everything is cool and calm

Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.01.21 14:05:00 - [641] Did you see in the dev blog about account security that CCP is reverse engineering bot programs? That one statement carries more weight than the entire "raging on" blog. Also for anyone looking at this thread and thinking "maybe I should get a bot": read that blog on phishing. It says bot programs secretly steal your account info and send it to the bot program writer, or do other nasty stuff to you. People writing programs for cheating don't stop at cheating in the game, they cheat you too.
Artisan Botanist Minmatar Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2011.01.21 14:10:00 - [642] Originally by: Vincent Athena Did you see in the dev blog about account security that CCP is reverse engineering bot programs? That one statement carries more weight than the entire "raging on" blog. Also for anyone looking at this thread and thinking "maybe I should get a bot": read that blog on phishing. It says bot programs secretly steal your account info and send it to the bot program writer, or do other nasty stuff to you. People writing programs for cheating don't stop at cheating in the game, they cheat you too. Link blog, all I want is an ETA on when will we see majority of bots dead, there is a deadline for all projects and it really wouldnt make a difference if a date (or vague date ie 'first quarter') is given, but one needs to be given
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.01.21 14:56:00 - [643] If you want to make a difference this is what you need to do: 1. Create an alt character. 2. Train him/her up to be able to use the lowest skilled cloaking device. 3. Use one of the resources available to you (web, word of mouth) which shows systems with unusual numbers of NPC kills. 4. Move your character to that system. 5. When you go to sleep / work etc, log him/her in to afk cloak in that system. The bots rely on code which effectively disables them from botting when a nuetral is in system. Your afker character will be a nuetral and will stop the bot from farming. The only fix for the bot will be to flag your neutral character as a blue character making it vulnerable to attack by you. Win for us / loss for bots. Best thing about this tactic, you lose nothing, bot loses everything. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up.
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.01.21 17:06:00 - [644] Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 21/01/2011 17:07:58 Originally by: Vincent Athena Did you see in the dev blog about account security that CCP is reverse engineering bot programs? That one statement carries more weight than the entire "raging on" blog. Also for anyone looking at this thread and thinking "maybe I should get a bot": read that blog on phishing. It says bot programs secretly steal your account info and send it to the bot program writer, or do other nasty stuff to you. People writing programs for cheating don't stop at cheating in the game, they cheat you too. Yes, i saw that blog... but i saw many other "words on paper" that remained only that... That words give us hope that something will be done on this subject... but i would like to see results too... I know that there is not simple solution of this problem... but if you dont do anything, thats approval... and i know that noone wants to be riped-off and/or have competition which you can not mach in any way, simple becouse you have one flaw... you are human... and becouse that many ppl are thinking why to do something that one stupid code can do and beat you in that becouse "it has all the time in the world"... and then that code "gives" ISK to some "elite PVPer" and that PVPer kills you with isk which he stole from you and now its in his ship... Many ppl are feeling stupid becouse of that... and ask themself "whats the piont"... Or simple cash out that ISK in $$$ and than show off with $$$ stolen from CCP and you... Becouse that there is EULA... and I think that EULA is law... and law must be obeyed and protected... and becouse that i plea to CCP, protect citizens of New Eden and protect New Eden himself becouse i don't want to see EVE Online to become Macros Online. "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes"
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.01.22 10:12:00 - [645] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 21/01/2011 18:17:13 Originally by: Vincent Athena Did you see in the dev blog about account security that CCP is reverse engineering bot programs? That one statement carries more weight than the entire "raging on" blog. Also for anyone looking at this thread and thinking "maybe I should get a bot": read that blog on phishing. It says bot programs secretly steal your account info and send it to the bot program writer, or do other nasty stuff to you. People writing programs for cheating don't stop at cheating in the game, they cheat you too. Yes, i saw that blog... but i saw many other "words on paper" that remained only that... That words give us hope that something will be done on this subject... but i would like to see results too... I know that there is not simple solution of this problem... but if you dont do anything, thats approval... and i know that noone wants to be riped-off and/or have competition which you can not mach in any way, simple becouse you have one flaw... you are human... and becouse that many ppl are thinking why to do something that one stupid code can do and beat you in that becouse "it has all the time in the world"... and then that code "gives" ISK to some "elite PVPer" and that PVPer kills you with isk which he stole from you and now its in his ship... Many ppl are feeling stupid becouse of that... and ask themself "whats the piont"... Or simple cash out that ISK in $$$ and than show off with $$$ stolen from CCP and you... Becouse that there is EULA... and I think that EULA is law... and law must be obeyed and protected... and becouse that i plea to CCP, protect citizens of New Eden and protect New Eden himself becouse i don't want to see EVE Online to become Macros Online. ill quote myself what i wrote in other post: Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae I wont worry if botters would not affect my game experiance... but they are... - the problem is that ore that I mine becouse of bots worth 2 to 3 times less... - the problem is that plex becouse of bots costs 1,5 to 2 times more... - the problem is that I cant even mine that much ore becouse bots mine out belts before i come online... - the problem is that when i kill them they just buy new ship and when they kill me i must earn for new ship... - the problem is that they play the game and dont have to worry about ISK, and i must calculate can i afford to play the game that way or i must wait to play it becouse i dont have ISK for that ship or something... - the problem is that they play the game only when its fun and I must to do less fun parts for longer time becouse of them.... they are ruining the game for real ppl... signed!!!
Kappas Katamara	Posted - 2011.01.22 11:19:00 - [646] Bumping an important thread.
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.01.23 18:38:00 - [647] @ CCP What are you doing on this subject??? there are so many topics on same subject and all we get is one sentence from DEV or in most cases nothing. can you please tell us are you doing anything and can we expect results of it, and maybe when???
Selinate Amarr Red Water Syndicate	Posted - 2011.01.23 18:39:00 - [648] Edited by: Selinate on 23/01/2011 18:40:32 Ok. It's official. This thread is now officially the "Tea Party of Eve" thread. You guys whine at CCP just about as much as the Tea Partiers do at Obama. EDIT: Also, once again, "fed"
Ancalagon DorDaedeloth	Posted - 2011.01.23 19:25:00 - [649] Originally by: Selinate Edited by: Selinate on 23/01/2011 18:40:32 Ok. It's official. This thread is now officially the "Tea Party of Eve" thread. You guys whine at CCP just about as much as the Tea Partiers do at Obama. EDIT: Also, once again, "fed" I like teaBetter than licking the slime off the Socialist Popsicle
Yavanna Akallabeth	Posted - 2011.01.23 19:28:00 - [650] Originally by: Ancalagon DorDaedeloth Originally by: Selinate Edited by: Selinate on 23/01/2011 18:40:32 Ok. It's official. This thread is now officially the "Tea Party of Eve" thread. You guys whine at CCP just about as much as the Tea Partiers do at Obama. EDIT: Also, once again, "fed" I like teaBetter than licking the slime off the Socialist Popsicle Now now madame be nice, you old hag.

Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.01.24 10:41:00 - [651] Edited by: Elanor Vega on 24/01/2011 10:41:50 Originally by: Selinate Edited by: Selinate on 23/01/2011 18:40:32 Ok. It's official. This thread is now officially the "Tea Party of Eve" thread. You guys whine at CCP just about as much as the Tea Partiers do at Obama. EDIT: Also, once again, "fed" and what are you? Obamas Secretary for Public Relations? you dont need to read this if you dont want to but you cant say that there isnt a big problem.
Musashi IV	Posted - 2011.01.24 12:07:00 - [652] We need to destroy all bots!!
Marlona Sky Global Criminal Countdown	Posted - 2011.01.24 17:37:00 - [653] Sure is a ** ton of macro haulers in low sec. Yeah and before you go giving me the same line of "If you suspect someone... blah, blah" and then link the petition thing. I have petitioned my ass off. So has a bunch of others. CCP has done nothing and we still have the same macro haulers for a year now. Get off your ass and do something about these bots already you lazy **s!
Shakira MILF	Posted - 2011.01.24 18:14:00 - [654] Originally by: Marlona Sky Sure is a ** ton of macro haulers in low sec. Yeah and before you go giving me the same line of "If you suspect someone... blah, blah" and then link the petition thing. I have petitioned my ass off. So has a bunch of others. CCP has done nothing and we still have the same macro haulers for a year now. Get off your ass and do something about these bots already you lazy **s! Frankly I don't believe CCP will ever fix this...
Torquemada Credo	Posted - 2011.01.24 18:27:00 - [655] Botters dont care, marcoing is becoming more common and legit in mmorgs. As for RMT, big giant who cares, CCP have taken over that market with plexes. So I really cant see the issue with it anymore. Its true it borks the economy, but if CCP are flooding the market with fake isk, why should I care if others are.
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.01.24 18:29:00 - [656] Hey guys, I've come up with a better solution that might end the macro invasion. Please read my thread on this and give a +1 or -1 to it...the more people respond, the better chance CCP has to fix it.
Dev Jah	Posted - 2011.01.25 02:37:00 - [657] Originally by: Torquemada Credo As for RMT, big giant who cares, CCP have taken over that market with plexes. So I really cant see the issue with it anymore. Its true it borks the economy, but if CCP are flooding the market with fake isk, why should I care if others are. RMT is financed by bots which flood the market with ISK/loot/minerals. PLEX does not flood the market as such, buying/trading PLEX does not create any isk/minerals. Originally by: NinjaSpud Edited by: NinjaSpud on 24/01/2011 21:10:17 Hey guys, I've come up with a better solution that might end the macro invasion. Please read my thread on this and give a +1 or -1 to it...the more people respond, the better chance CCP has to fix it. (so as i dont get pointed at for double posting) EDIT: Are people actually brave enough to discuss their use of macros in game? check it out Seems like some good ideas regarding mining. But it wouldn't really help with the botting issue as a whole, as there are bots that can run missions, rat as well. I don't know how much harder it is to set up a bot running missions/ratting vs mining. But I figure if there are a lot of players who suddenly lost their means of free income they would soon find another way. So CCP would have to take care of that part of the game as well, if it even is possible to make certain aspects of the game unbotable.
Q aa's Vassal	Posted - 2011.01.25 04:24:00 - [658] /noice kill all bots!
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.01.25 13:45:00 - [659] many people say that this or that would not work, maybe it wont 100% but thats not excuse for not doing anything!!! DO SOMETHING
rock crawlermne	Posted - 2011.01.26 00:32:00 - [660] Edited by: rock crawlermne on 26/01/2011 00:33:58 I'm sure ccp will eventually see this thread bump it up!!! EDIT: almost 50 thousand views....thats more then most stickies!!! CCP, assuming that's 50k different people...each paying 15 bucks a month...you have 3/4 of a MILLION US dollers in profit yelling out...please at least comment on this.

Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.01.26 12:49:00 - [661] Originally by: rock crawlermne Edited by: rock crawlermne on 26/01/2011 00:33:58 I'm sure ccp will eventually see this thread bump it up!!! EDIT: almost 50 thousand views....thats more then most stickies!!! CCP, assuming that's 50k different people...each paying 15 bucks a month...you have 3/4 of a MILLION US dollers in profit yelling out...please at least comment on this. I am afraid that this thread is on CCPs ignore list... :(
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.01.26 12:59:00 - [662] Originally by: Aquila Draco Originally by: rock crawlermne Edited by: rock crawlermne on 26/01/2011 00:33:58 I'm sure ccp will eventually see this thread bump it up!!! EDIT: almost 50 thousand views....thats more then most stickies!!! CCP, assuming that's 50k different people...each paying 15 bucks a month...you have 3/4 of a MILLION US dollers in profit yelling out...please at least comment on this. I am afraid that this thread is on CCPs ignore list... :( Nah. I'm sure they're keeping an eye on it... its just every time someone enters the thread they cloak or log off. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Sophia Amelia Stone	Posted - 2011.01.26 13:04:00 - [663] Edited by: Sophia Amelia Stone on 26/01/2011 13:05:04 Originally by: rock crawlermne Edited by: rock crawlermne on 26/01/2011 00:33:58 I'm sure ccp will eventually see this thread bump it up!!! EDIT: almost 50 thousand views....thats more then most stickies!!! CCP, assuming that's 50k different people...each paying 15 bucks a month...you have 3/4 of a MILLION US dollers in profit yelling out...please at least comment on this. This thread 22 pages long 50,057 views and a creation date of 05-12-2010. Rate the avatar above thread, 83 pages long 71,630 views and a creation date of only 19-01-2011. Seems that this thread does not make such an impact as you seem to think. Note: Figures used correct at time of gathering the information to use in this post (which was shortly before posting).
Superpossee	Posted - 2011.01.26 13:10:00 - [664] That is because all has been said. No point in repeating over and over again. All that matters is to keep the thread on top so people esp. newcomers who read this forum get informed about cheating in eve until CCP finally stops tolerating botting.
L A G Gallente Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2011.01.26 13:13:00 - [665] Looks like sansha are actually putting and effort in killing botters and RMT
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.26 13:29:00 - [666] Originally by: L A G Looks like sansha are actually putting and effort in killing botters and RMT But incursions are only in few systems of EVE... and bots in other systems are working fine... :( and there are many many systems in EVE...
Rin Vires Gallente RinCorp	Posted - 2011.01.26 13:39:00 - [667] Originally by: L A G Looks like sansha are actually putting and effort in killing botters and RMT LMAO, that thread is awesome. Botter tears... ain't nothing better. --- You're in the topic. Topic is in the forum. Troll is in the forum.
DTMKnight	Posted - 2011.01.26 14:16:00 - [668] Killing the bots sounds good to me. +1 Sansha I'm all for CCP actually doing something significant to stop botting. If a bot is reported do they actually check then suspend the account of the bot?
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.01.26 22:40:00 - [669] Originally by: DTMKnight Killing the bots sounds good to me. +1 Sansha I'm all for CCP actually doing something significant to stop botting. If a bot is reported do they actually check then suspend the account of the bot? Someone posted a link to a macro site in a locked thread earlier today, after perusing their forums, it seems they only temp-ban the accounts. I don't know what the threshold is for a perma-ban though. They need to revisit that policy and make it perma-ban on the first offense. I can understand why they only temp-ban, but seriously, from reading that forum, it's rediculous what people are getting away with and the amount of isk they're making. It seems CCP also is tracking all the accounts linked to botters and banning those too. My faith in CCPs efforts have been somewhat restored, but seriously they need to rethink their policy on only temp-banning people. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.01.26 22:46:00 - [670] If you think that CCP is ever going to permaban someone caught botting you need to either get off your meds or get on better ones. Recent online record somethere near 635000 If CCP banned the botters, there would be half or less. While that might appeal to you, it makes absolutely NO business sense to CCP. Facts is facts and no matter what YOU want, this is their game. They are going to keep the subs and say goodbye to the very few that would actually quit over their rage against botters.

Barakkus	Posted - 2011.01.26 22:49:00 - [671] Edited by: Barakkus on 26/01/2011 22:50:29 Originally by: Xylengra If you think that CCP is ever going to permaban someone caught botting you need to either get off your meds or get on better ones. Recent online record somethere near 635000 If CCP banned the botters, there would be half or less. While that might appeal to you, it makes absolutely NO business sense to CCP. Facts is facts and no matter what YOU want, this is their game. They are going to keep the subs and say goodbye to the very few that would actually quit over their rage against botters. They do perma-ban but I guess they have a high threshold on it. And a little hint, it's not just me that wants botters banned. You seem to have missed the devblog explaining how botters cause undue load on parts of the cluster they'd rather not have to deal with. When they have to keep upgrading hardware to compensate for increased loads, or they can choose to ban some accounts, the cheaper and more cost effective method would be to ban accounts. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Naya Mae	Posted - 2011.01.26 23:01:00 - [672] Originally by: Xylengra If you think that CCP is ever going to permaban someone caught botting you need to either get off your meds or get on better ones. Recent online record somethere near 635000 If CCP banned the botters, there would be half or less. While that might appeal to you, it makes absolutely NO business sense to CCP. Facts is facts and no matter what YOU want, this is their game. They are going to keep the subs and say goodbye to the very few that would actually quit over their rage against botters. Any reliable source stating that each of us has his/her botter soul in the universe of EVE? P.S.: If all that was true, I would quit over my rage against CCP who does nothing to ban the botters.
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.01.26 23:14:00 - [673] Btw, I have more botter character names aside from the once I already posted here. EVE mail me and I'll send you the proof. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.01.26 23:40:00 - [674] Edited by: Vincent Athena on 26/01/2011 23:43:21 Originally by: Naya Mae Originally by: Xylengra If you think that CCP is ever going to permaban someone caught botting you need to either get off your meds or get on better ones. Recent online record somethere near 635000 If CCP banned the botters, there would be half or less. While that might appeal to you, it makes absolutely NO business sense to CCP. Facts is facts and no matter what YOU want, this is their game. They are going to keep the subs and say goodbye to the very few that would actually quit over their rage against botters. Any reliable source stating that each of us has his/her botter soul in the universe of EVE? P.S.: If all that was true, I would quit over my rage against CCP who does nothing to ban the botters. Well, if we take a totally made up case and do the math: Assume 97% of players are playing legally, and average 2.3 hours of play a day, and on average run 1.5 clients. Assume the other 3% are bot users, are on 23 hours a day and on average run 5 bots. Result: About half of those on-line are bots. So a very large fraction of the ships we see could be run by bots, even if a tiny fraction of the subscribers are cheaters. Edit: It also means that we do not really have a player driven economy, we have, to some unknown extent, a cheater driven economy. It also means that if CCP managed to rid the game of bots, their subscription base would not go down much, but server use would go down alot. Also CCP has stated that many bot users use stolen accounts and engage in various fraudulent activities that directly cost CCP money. So why are there still bots? Why has CCP not killed them all? I can only conclude it is in fact a difficult problem. But I sure would like to see some data from CCP showing this to be true.
Jing Toh	Posted - 2011.01.26 23:43:00 - [675] What is this botting you speak of? Are you talking about the macro miners who clear out whole belts and never sleep?
Lellian Marcellus Taron	Posted - 2011.01.26 23:44:00 - [676] I am so glad this thread -- a reminder of how bad spelling is these days -- has made it back to the first page.
Selinate Amarr Red Water Syndicate	Posted - 2011.01.26 23:46:00 - [677] I have come up with a clever name for the tea party of Eve. It is the quafe party. Quafers. I'll go with quafers. Close enough. Anywho, "fed"
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.01.26 23:46:00 - [678] Originally by: Jing Toh What is this botting you speak of? Are you talking about the macro miners who clear out whole belts and never sleep? Macro mining, market bots, ratting bots...I didn't think there were market bots, didn't seem to make any sense to me, but I saw some **** that actually enlightened me on the aforementioned forums I perused today. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.01.27 10:33:00 - [679] Originally by: Vincent Athena Edited by: Vincent Athena on 26/01/2011 23:43:21 Originally by: Naya Mae Originally by: Xylengra If you think that CCP is ever going to permaban someone caught botting you need to either get off your meds or get on better ones. Recent online record somethere near 635000 If CCP banned the botters, there would be half or less. While that might appeal to you, it makes absolutely NO business sense to CCP. Facts is facts and no matter what YOU want, this is their game. They are going to keep the subs and say goodbye to the very few that would actually quit over their rage against botters. Any reliable source stating that each of us has his/her botter soul in the universe of EVE? P.S.: If all that was true, I would quit over my rage against CCP who does nothing to ban the botters. Well, if we take a totally made up case and do the math: Assume 97% of players are playing legally, and average 2.3 hours of play a day, and on average run 1.5 clients. Assume the other 3% are bot users, are on 23 hours a day and on average run 5 bots. Result: About half of those on-line are bots. So a very large fraction of the ships we see could be run by bots, even if a tiny fraction of the subscribers are cheaters. Edit: It also means that we do not really have a player driven economy, we have, to some unknown extent, a cheater driven economy. It also means that if CCP managed to rid the game of bots, their subscription base would not go down much, but server use would go down alot. Also CCP has stated that many bot users use stolen accounts and engage in various fraudulent activities that directly cost CCP money. So why are there still bots? Why has CCP not killed them all? I can only conclude it is in fact a difficult problem. But I sure would like to see some data from CCP showing this to be true. :((( so EVE-online has become MACROS-online... and how can CCP say that this is player driven economy??? new advertise: EVE-online - the best macros driven economy!!! "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes"
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.01.27 11:11:00 - [680] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae new advertise: EVE-online - the best macros driven economy!!! lol

Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2011.01.27 11:15:00 - [681] Originally by: Vincent Athena It also means that if CCP managed to rid the game of bots, their subscription base would not go down much, but server use would go down alot. Also CCP has stated that many bot users use stolen accounts and engage in various fraudulent activities that directly cost CCP money. So why are there still bots? Why has CCP not killed them all? I can only conclude it is in fact a difficult problem. You are looking at the same situation as was described in fight club. If the lost profit from killing a bot account off is more than the cost of tidying up after the bot. You don't kill the bot. So if the mining bot is just sat there grunting away behaving itself and not directly annoying anyone... it's unlikely anything bad will happen to it. It's simple business sense and with 700? employees around the world... you don't really want to hack away parts of the cash cow. So whilst "Unholy Rage" and "We (temp)banned X bots, look at our server stats now" make good PR, everyone knows they'll be back, accepts they'll be back and actually hopes they'll be back due to the subscription cost; even if all the bots PLEX that just offsets the ú14 to someone else, it doesn't mean 'play for free'.
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.01.27 14:13:00 - [682] Edited by: Aquila Draco on 27/01/2011 14:13:36 Originally by: L A G Looks like sansha are actually putting and effort in killing botters and RMT but the thing is... all macros are updated by now or will be in few days... and they are back in business... this expansion can't stop macros... sadly...
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.01.27 15:46:00 - [683] Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 27/01/2011 15:46:58 Originally by: Sophia Amelia Stone Edited by: Sophia Amelia Stone on 26/01/2011 13:05:04 Originally by: rock crawlermne Edited by: rock crawlermne on 26/01/2011 00:33:58 I'm sure ccp will eventually see this thread bump it up!!! EDIT: almost 50 thousand views....thats more then most stickies!!! CCP, assuming that's 50k different people...each paying 15 bucks a month...you have 3/4 of a MILLION US dollers in profit yelling out...please at least comment on this. This thread 22 pages long 50,057 views and a creation date of 05-12-2010. Rate the avatar above thread, 83 pages long 71,630 views and a creation date of only 19-01-2011. Seems that this thread does not make such an impact as you seem to think. Note: Figures used correct at time of gathering the information to use in this post (which was shortly before posting). Just saw this... please add up together all posts on this subject and you will see how many threads, pages, posts, views this subject has in all sub forums... and ppl are fed of writing the same things over and over again over years and they still write about botting... and threads about new avatars are here now, when this is new thing, and only now... "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes"
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.27 18:59:00 - [684] I would like to point you all to one thread that i found in Assembly Hall: [Reality Check] Bots, Macros and CCP follow the link and support the cause if you think that "next CSM should bring this situation to the table and ask why is CCP openly allowing bots to flourish"
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.01.27 20:33:00 - [685] Question about null bots, if it's so obvious where they are and big empires are using them to fund their wars why do their enemies let this happen? EG is it really beyond the means of the NC or IT to flood areas with afk cloakers and pick off bots at random? I would have thought that this would make military sense. Apologies if this is a naive question, I have a serious aversion to poses, cap ships and blindly following orders so know very little about the current state of sov warfare.
Larz Eldherjur Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.27 23:50:00 - [686] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 21/01/2011 18:17:13 Originally by: Vincent Athena Did you see in the dev blog about account security that CCP is reverse engineering bot programs? That one statement carries more weight than the entire "raging on" blog. Also for anyone looking at this thread and thinking "maybe I should get a bot": read that blog on phishing. It says bot programs secretly steal your account info and send it to the bot program writer, or do other nasty stuff to you. People writing programs for cheating don't stop at cheating in the game, they cheat you too. Yes, i saw that blog... but i saw many other "words on paper" that remained only that... That words give us hope that something will be done on this subject... but i would like to see results too... I know that there is not simple solution of this problem... but if you dont do anything, thats approval... and i know that noone wants to be riped-off and/or have competition which you can not mach in any way, simple becouse you have one flaw... you are human... and becouse that many ppl are thinking why to do something that one stupid code can do and beat you in that becouse "it has all the time in the world"... and then that code "gives" ISK to some "elite PVPer" and that PVPer kills you with isk which he stole from you and now its in his ship... Many ppl are feeling stupid becouse of that... and ask themself "whats the piont"... Or simple cash out that ISK in $$$ and than show off with $$$ stolen from CCP and you... Becouse that there is EULA... and I think that EULA is law... and law must be obeyed and protected... and becouse that i plea to CCP, protect citizens of New Eden and protect New Eden himself becouse i don't want to see EVE Online to become Macros Online. ill quote myself what i wrote in other post: Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae I wont worry if botters would not affect my game experiance... but they are... - the problem is that ore that I mine becouse of bots worth 2 to 3 times less... - the problem is that plex becouse of bots costs 1,5 to 2 times more... - the problem is that I cant even mine that much ore becouse bots mine out belts before i come online... - the problem is that when i kill them they just buy new ship and when they kill me i must earn for new ship... - the problem is that they play the game and dont have to worry about ISK, and i must calculate can i afford to play the game that way or i must wait to play it becouse i dont have ISK for that ship or something... - the problem is that they play the game only when its fun and I must to do less fun parts for longer time becouse of them.... they are ruining the game for real ppl... Signed!
Zachstar	Posted - 2011.01.28 05:32:00 - [687] Originally by: yani dumyat Question about null bots, if it's so obvious where they are and big empires are using them to fund their wars why do their enemies let this happen? EG is it really beyond the means of the NC or IT to flood areas with afk cloakers and pick off bots at random? I would have thought that this would make military sense. Apologies if this is a naive question, I have a serious aversion to poses, cap ships and blindly following orders so know very little about the current state of sov warfare. This isnt some sleepy third world farmer working for pennies. Bots seem to be highly advanced and defeating a good one is next to impossible. Which is pointless anyway because the idiot has 20-50 extra in reserve. Incursions are going to help but we need more to stop this madness. The way min prices and suggested massive bot fleets are going... Capship defeats will mean almost nothing.
Murtal Liven	Posted - 2011.01.28 06:25:00 - [688] lol im sorry I was looking at this OP guy he has a cool moustache and didnt read the rest of the thread
Pesadel0 the muppets RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.01.28 10:12:00 - [689] Originally by: Murtal Liven lol im sorry I was looking at this OP guy he has a cool moustache and didnt read the rest of the thread Thank you for the free bump.
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2011.01.28 10:24:00 - [690] CCP wil ldo a minimum only when it affects their bottom line maybe a permanent hulkageddon

James Tiberius Kirk	Posted - 2011.01.28 11:24:00 - [691] Act if you are feed up!
1ee7W4rr10z	Posted - 2011.01.28 12:06:00 - [692] I'd like to point out that you spelt fed wrong in the thread title
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.01.28 12:54:00 - [693] Just to post important link on new page too: Originally by: Severian Carnifex I would like to point you all to one thread that i found in Assembly Hall: [Reality Check] Bots, Macros and CCP follow the link and support the cause if you think that "next CSM should bring this situation to the table and ask why is CCP openly allowing bots to flourish"
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.01.28 13:08:00 - [694] Looking at some of the whines going on in other parts of this and other forums (by known botters), might not incursions be used as a weapon to make RMT botting untenable?
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.01.28 14:23:00 - [695] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Looking at some of the whines going on in other parts of this and other forums (by known botters), might not incursions be used as a weapon to make RMT botting untenable? No not really. Bots will adapt. Most likely they will simply dock, cloak, log if incursion is going on until their owner can move them somewhere else. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.01.28 18:24:00 - [696] Originally by: 1ee7W4rr10z I'd like to point out that you spelt fed wrong in the thread title Working as intended...
Tom Gerard	Posted - 2011.01.29 13:58:00 - [697] If nobody will enforce the law then is it really still a law? Acording to my minmatar friend, who is a worthless scrapheap of human genetic garbage, like all their kind, CCP has no grounds to punish anyone legally for botting. ............................................ Blinding them with brilliance or baffling them with bull****.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.01.29 15:33:00 - [698] Originally by: Tom Gerard If nobody will enforce the law then is it really still a law? Acording to my minmatar friend, who is a worthless scrapheap of human genetic garbage, like all their kind, CCP has no grounds to punish anyone legally for botting. Legally as in using the legal system? No they don't. Legally as in using the EULA, yeah they do. Legally as in making up the rules for their game and informing their users of those rules and then punishing them for not following those rules, yeah they do. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.01.30 12:33:00 - [699] Edited by: Elanor Vega on 30/01/2011 12:36:33 there is Anti Bot Petition in Assembly Hall too: [Request] Anti Bot Petition .
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.01.30 14:26:00 - [700] I'll just quote myself, what i wrote in Mining, Rats, Immersion, Bots: Fix? thread in Features and Ideas Discussion forum: Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae All around EVE forum you can find many many many posts on the same subject... EVE <-> BOTS <-> MINING BOTS <-> EVE <-> MINING MINING <-> BOTS <-> EVE there are many sugestions how to solve this problem... and I support anything that can solve this problem... problem of BOTS... and not only in mining... and CCP needs to do something... it's CCPs turn now... but after all this i think that, if CCP wants to solve this problem, CCP need to integrate in client some sort of BOT DETECTION PROGRAM... and that server ACCEPTS ONLY CLIENT CONNECTIONS... By this bot programers will need to make more effort and not only inject little pyton code in client and make it their puppet... all other MMOs have some sort of bot detections... EVE must have it too... when this is done, then you can make some changes in game-play... and that all will substantially reduce number of bots in EVE... and make EVE again the best game on the market... "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes"

PhoenixofMT Gallente	Posted - 2011.01.30 22:11:00 - [701] I've read posts on several different subjects involving "What the fans want" and the conclusion I've come to is: What a bunch of whiny *****es! I'll admit I don't know a great deal about software development (I only wear the code monkey hat at work on an as needed basis) but I do know it takes time to implement changes and this time is not influenced by complaining whether it's just your boss or a half-million enraged customers. Signing petitions can be effective to a point, but once CCP has acknowledged you, adding your voice here cannot make anything happen sooner, whether its solving UI problems with client patches or squashing the bots. And personally, I don't think hiring an army of moderators to hold everybody's hand through every "crisis" is the way to go. Of course they are silent. They've acknowledged the problem (even if it wasn't absolutely clear) and are busy working on a fix. I don't expect them to come back every 15 minutes to clarify and debate the definition of "is" in their response. I also hate this opinion many seem to have that CCP is an evil corporation that cares only for its bottom line. It's been obvious to me from the beginning (well, my beginning about a year ago any way) that the developers have put a lot of love into this game, sometimes even to the point of ignoring what the fans would like in favor of doing something cool and new. Sure if they banned all the bots tomorrow they would loose 1/3 of their subscribers (or whatever) but I doubt that would crush them. They might have to run lean for a couple of months but they have a great product and a loyal fan base. I'm sure they would bounce back. Now I've read quite a bit of this thread and a few others and here are my thoughts on a few proposed solutions (though I'm sure they've already thought of and analyzed just about every possible solution). Make mining more interactive. This one just seems like a good idea on its own. Sure the bot programmers will probably just upgrade their bots, but adding a more interactive layer to mining (possibly with higher yields if you do more than set your laser and go watch a movie) seems like a good improvement to the game in general. I mine on occasion and it is incredibly boring unless there is some good corp chat or something to break the monotony. Move the rarer ores to grav sites and make the miners scan them down. Leave the belts in high sec for the noobs. This sounds good to. I don't know how a bot would access the scanning interface but it seems like it would be very difficult. And if the bot runner just scans down the site manually, they still have to come back in a couple of hours (tweak volumes to balance time to deplete) to scan down a new site. Find the bots and permaban them. It sounds like the Warden style bot monitor wouldn't work as well as people seem think and some regard it as an invasion of privacy. It seems pretty simple to me though. How long does the most Eve crazed, caffeine doped teenager with a summer to waste ever spend logged on in a week? It seems every fourth post talks about bots mining 23/7. What is the longest Eve marathon anyone's run? 23 hours? Has anyone gone that long and come right back for another 23 after downtime? Seems to me that a series of time based flags would be sufficient. Log more than, say, 8 hours a day more than 2 days in a row, FLAG. On more than 30 hours in a week, flag. Repeat this behavior 2 weeks in a row FLAG. 5 or 6 flags and a GM comes along to investigate. I've just pulled these numbers out of my butt but someone smarter than I with access to game statistics could put together a simple but effective algorithm. The idea is to determine the reasonable amount of grinding a human can be expected to tolerate and investigate those who exceed this regularly. This reduces the impact of the bots on the economy by forcing them to behave more like human players. It's not a perfect fix, but it would help, and it may be the best we can hope for. -- Phoenix Phoenix
Zen Q	Posted - 2011.01.30 23:14:00 - [702] Originally by: PhoenixofMT I'll admit I don't know a great deal about software development lol, understatement.
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2011.01.30 23:30:00 - [703] Originally by: PhoenixofMT stuff CCP PR (public relations) at work??
Selinate Amarr Red Water Syndicate	Posted - 2011.01.30 23:55:00 - [704] Ahhh, the quafer thread is back. Go back to your station holes!!! Also, "fed"
PhoenixofMT Gallente	Posted - 2011.01.31 00:21:00 - [705] Originally by: Miss President Originally by: PhoenixofMT stuff CCP PR (public relations) at work?? Nope, just my opinion. -- Phoenix Phoenix
Walmartt	Posted - 2011.01.31 02:19:00 - [706] /signed upheaval is good. CCP, nuke the bots so the market will go nuts.
Priestess Natasha	Posted - 2011.01.31 02:20:00 - [707] Edited by: Priestess Natasha on 31/01/2011 02:29:55 Warden is not foolproof. shadow.sys, a glider tool, hides glider inside a rootkit of sorts. To this day Blizzard has not been able to break it. They shut down glider via a DCMA/Copyright suit and mostly won. However upon appeal, that I just read, looks like Glider will be up and running again after 2 years. Woot! Eve's UI is the worst for enabling botting. Specifically the overview. I can sort it, position it, filter it. It's a scripters dream. The things I want will always be in exactly the same place, but better, is if there's nothing on my filtered overview, then I can just move on. I know how one of the popular mining script works, it's a very simple pixel search type of deal. Again the overview is the bad seed here. R/Click menus, bookmark tabs, Overview, there's never any variance. Thus extremely simple to find the element you're looking for. I don't claim to know how some unnamed eve rattingbot works, but if it's doing more than pixel scans, as in reading memory or injecting python directly to the client, then that's fixable in the very short term by some sort of wardenesque spyware. Short term until someone either breaks the warden type software, or they simply hide thier processes from it. The overview is the main culprit for scripting things to shoot at. And local is the main culprit for giving a very certain unvarying event that the script can react to. Regarding the "time based bans". Once it's determined what the safe time levels are, there's nothing to stop a rotating roster of bots. If the safe time is 8 hours, fine..I'll run 3 bots. (I'm putting myself in a hardcore botters shoes here) Triple the number of accounts it takes to do it? They don't care, the income far exceeeds the lolPLEXprice. Time based or activity based flags wont work. BTW you can easily script a GM reply. That's been happening since EasyUO was state of the art.
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.01.31 03:45:00 - [708] Originally by: Priestess Natasha Edited by: Priestess Natasha on 31/01/2011 02:29:55 Warden is not foolproof. shadow.sys, a glider tool, hides glider inside a rootkit of sorts. To this day Blizzard has not been able to break it. They shut down glider via a DCMA/Copyright suit and mostly won. However upon appeal, that I just read, looks like Glider will be up and running again after 2 years. Woot! Eve's UI is the worst for enabling botting. Specifically the overview. I can sort it, position it, filter it. It's a scripters dream. The things I want will always be in exactly the same place, but better, is if there's nothing on my filtered overview, then I can just move on. I know how one of the popular mining script works, it's a very simple pixel search type of deal. Again the overview is the bad seed here. R/Click menus, bookmark tabs, Overview, there's never any variance. Thus extremely simple to find the element you're looking for. I don't claim to know how some unnamed eve rattingbot works, but if it's doing more than pixel scans, as in reading memory or injecting python directly to the client, then that's fixable in the very short term by some sort of wardenesque spyware. Short term until someone either breaks the warden type software, or they simply hide thier processes from it. The overview is the main culprit for scripting things to shoot at. And local is the main culprit for giving a very certain unvarying event that the script can react to. Regarding the "time based bans". Once it's determined what the safe time levels are, there's nothing to stop a rotating roster of bots. If the safe time is 8 hours, fine..I'll run 3 bots. (I'm putting myself in a hardcore botters shoes here) Triple the number of accounts it takes to do it? They don't care, the income far exceeeds the lolPLEXprice. Time based or activity based flags wont work. BTW you can easily script a GM reply. That's been happening since EasyUO was state of the art. Purely time based aren't a solution but they could be part of a pattern detection system to flag the ones you want to look further into, same with analyzing behavior, if a ship warps to safe(stops what it is doing) every time someone enters the system then sits there cloaked or docked etc for a set time every time that is a flag, you also note anyone it doesn't 'run' from. If a character logs in everyday at the same time for the same amount of time doing the same thing, that is a flag, if it never deviates from its activity (no browser, no email, no market, etc) that is a flag and so on. Nothing is 100% but there are many things that can be built upon to discover patterns that ultimately lead to more investigation or just an abundance of 'proof' even if circumstantial that something isn't quite right. At best the people flagged have no lives/jobs/responsibilities or at worst are bots/share accounts. As far as getting by a GM convo I'm sure if there are standard can queries it is easy, might not be so easy if there were more interactive and creative conversations happening. Imagine asking the 'bot' to name their favorite animal, what color is it, what does it eat, I type "door, two, fox, boot, seven" and ask "what animal did I type", and so on. Of course playing the "I don't speak that language" act is an issue but that can also be another flag dependent upon the other flags. Further tactics could be as GM I suspect you of being a bot, I alter your systems rack and swap your weapons/mining lasers with your lower rack or vice versa, if you were there you'd notice sooner or later, if not it would spend hours trying to cycle/uncycle the wrong things. Certainly if the UI is problematic there is then a method to 'fight' them, even doing things like changing names of references in it, with proper Q/A could make reading from it more difficult and require more maintenance by botters. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Musashi IV	Posted - 2011.01.31 07:32:00 - [709] Just by changing one menu item you knocked out a lot of macro users. If you randomized every menu everytime its opened you will kill all macros.
Eden Love	Posted - 2011.01.31 10:01:00 - [710] Originally by: Musashi IV Just by changing one menu item you knocked out a lot of macro users. If you randomized every menu everytime its opened you will kill all macros. +1 This bot problem schould be attacked by honest player base much more. A thread wont make it at all. How about a 1 day protest which could be expanded to 1 month without sub? How about mass petition CCP? Above idea would be a big time success against botters! What did CCP do against botters? Have they any idea?

Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.01.31 15:46:00 - [711] Originally by: Eden Love This bot problem schould be attacked by honest player base much more. signed Originally by: Eden Love What did CCP do against botters? Have they any idea? well... nothing... thats The Problem...
Senily	Posted - 2011.01.31 16:26:00 - [712] Originally by: Bhattran Purely time based aren't a solution but they could be part of a pattern detection system to flag the ones you want to look further into, same with analyzing behavior, if a ship warps to safe(stops what it is doing) every time someone enters the system then sits there cloaked or docked etc for a set time every time that is a flag, you also note anyone it doesn't 'run' from. If a character logs in everyday at the same time for the same amount of time doing the same thing, that is a flag, if it never deviates from its activity (no browser, no email, no market, etc) that is a flag and so on. Nothing is 100% but there are many things that can be built upon to discover patterns that ultimately lead to more investigation or just an abundance of 'proof' even if circumstantial that something isn't quite right. At best the people flagged have no lives/jobs/responsibilities or at worst are bots/share accounts. Very laughable... I log a certain Pilot in every day at exactly the same time, and perform exactly the same tasks, and warp to a safe spot if someone enters the system. In fact, I do this with 3 pilots every day It is called PI management Oh, and it is because I DO have a Job and responsibilities that I do it this way lol.
Aylara	Posted - 2011.01.31 16:31:00 - [713] How's the witch-hunt going? Tbh, I find the whole situation amusing, with so many people seeing bots everywhere. It is probably impossible right now to rat in neutral/hostile space, just to pi ss the other guys off, without being reported as a bot
Lady Isabell Amarr Priory Of The Lemon Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2011.01.31 16:53:00 - [714] Originally by: Musashi IV Just by changing one menu item you knocked out a lot of macro users. If you randomized every menu everytime its opened you will kill all macros. Randomizing menu items every time a menu is opened is a nice way to ** off a LOT of legitimate players. Look, we all agree that bots have to go, but **ing over everyone is not the solution.
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.01.31 17:44:00 - [715] Originally by: Senily Originally by: Bhattran Purely time based aren't a solution but they could be part of a pattern detection system to flag the ones you want to look further into, same with analyzing behavior, if a ship warps to safe(stops what it is doing) every time someone enters the system then sits there cloaked or docked etc for a set time every time that is a flag, you also note anyone it doesn't 'run' from. If a character logs in everyday at the same time for the same amount of time doing the same thing, that is a flag, if it never deviates from its activity (no browser, no email, no market, etc) that is a flag and so on. Nothing is 100% but there are many things that can be built upon to discover patterns that ultimately lead to more investigation or just an abundance of 'proof' even if circumstantial that something isn't quite right. At best the people flagged have no lives/jobs/responsibilities or at worst are bots/share accounts. Very laughable... I log a certain Pilot in every day at exactly the same time, and perform exactly the same tasks, and warp to a safe spot if someone enters the system. In fact, I do this with 3 pilots every day It is called PI management Oh, and it is because I DO have a Job and responsibilities that I do it this way lol. Stay with me, if you did it with machine accuracy every time day after day that would be a 'flag', one of many, priority going to those who spend hours doing repetitive activities. That could all be further streamlined to ratting/missioning (bounty activities) or mining (roids/belts) or focused on things like a 'trader' that makes market changes all day always updating orders that have become 'outdated' exactly after a set time. A 'flag' is simply something used as an indicator, accumulation of several flags or meeting the requirements for a specific flag like being online for 12hrs a day every day, same time, same system, exact 'same' activity etc could be the kick to have GM investigate, through further study or the GM 'convo'/messing with your racks. All flagging is supposed to do is offer a way to alleviate some of the burden that is pretty much on the players to report and detect 'bots' by spending our time looking for them. Why should I or any other player take on the mantle of doing CCP's job to fight botting when there are other ways for them to fight it, in this thread and others, not all are going to be effective and might not be feasible but the solution isn't to ignore it. CCP has the data or at least has access to it, this is a method to help them find possible bots, laughable is the apparent efforts of CCP and their attitude in regards to this issue. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Senily	Posted - 2011.01.31 18:54:00 - [716] Originally by: Bhattran Stay with me, if you did it with machine accuracy every time day after day that would be a 'flag', one of many, priority going to those who spend hours doing repetitive activities. That could all be further streamlined to ratting/missioning (bounty activities) or mining (roids/belts) or focused on things like a 'trader' that makes market changes all day always updating orders that have become 'outdated' exactly after a set time. A 'flag' is simply something used as an indicator, accumulation of several flags or meeting the requirements for a specific flag like being online for 12hrs a day every day, same time, same system, exact 'same' activity etc could be the kick to have GM investigate, through further study or the GM 'convo'/messing with your racks. All flagging is supposed to do is offer a way to alleviate some of the burden that is pretty much on the players to report and detect 'bots' by spending our time looking for them. Why should I or any other player take on the mantle of doing CCP's job to fight botting when there are other ways for them to fight it, in this thread and others, not all are going to be effective and might not be feasible but the solution isn't to ignore it. CCP has the data or at least has access to it, this is a method to help them find possible bots, laughable is the apparent efforts of CCP and their attitude in regards to this issue. My turn.... stay with me.. in the year 2011, Automation software can get this.. randomize!! Part of what I do as my job, is Automate tedious tasks for other people using computers. Some of the code I use, incorporates Randomization.. Hmm, what a concept! Honestly, I get a kick out of all the ideas people brew up in these over exagerated threads. Yes, there are some very good ideas, but people need to realize just how sophisticated some of the new automation software really is, and how creating a challenge for the "Bot" authors only results in a higher cost to the person that purchases it. Want to stop RMT and Bots? seriously? then remove the thing they cater to. Make all Currency NO TRADE Make all Items NO TRADE As long as there is a free and open economy, free market, then, people are going to find ways to cheat, automate, bot, and all of the rest of the things that real life economies offers, that includes scamming and stealing.
PhoenixofMT Gallente	Posted - 2011.01.31 21:10:00 - [717] First, I want to apologize for calling you all whiny ***es. My Irritation got the better of me. When I debate my opponent with personal remarks, he wins. /sigh Now... Originally by:** Last few posters Stuff... Originally by: Senily Originally by: Bhattran Stuff... My turn.... stay with me.. in the year 2011, Automation software can get this.. randomize!! Part of what I do as my job, is Automate tedious tasks for other people using computers. Some of the code I use, incorporates Randomization.. Hmm, what a concept! Honestly, I get a kick out of all the ideas people brew up in these over exagerated threads. Yes, there are some very good ideas, but people need to realize just how sophisticated some of the new automation software really is, and how creating a challenge for the "Bot" authors only results in a higher cost to the person that purchases it. Want to stop RMT and Bots? seriously? then remove the thing they cater to. Make all Currency NO TRADE Make all Items NO TRADE As long as there is a free and open economy, free market, then, people are going to find ways to cheat, automate, bot, and all of the rest of the things that real life economies offers, that includes scamming and stealing. Senily, The point of my suggestion is to reduce the effectiveness of the bot (i.e. its ability to mine/rat/whatever for extended periods) to be more in line with your style of play. If the bots have to act more like real humans (i.e. get tired after 5 hours, can't do more than 1 23 hour marathon a month, have to leave the house for a few hours most days, etc.) 1. They will be closer to the letter, if not the spirit, of the EULA clause on macros. 2. Their impact on the economy will more closely match that of your above average miner. The problem hasn't gone away, but it has been reduced in severity. I suppose the response to this would be more accounts running bots to make up for it, but there has to be a break over point somewhere. At some point the number of bot accounts supported with PLEX has to become too expensive to be worth it. The sheer number of clients required for one person to remain profitable would be unrealistic? Again, someone with better access to stats/more experience with play-for-free might be able to give better insight on this. I'm glad I've managed to spark some proper discussion here. The last few posts have been a refreshing dose of rational thought as opposed to emotional rants. Keep it up. -- Phoenix Phoenix
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.01.31 23:53:00 - [718] Originally by: PhoenixofMT Originally by: Last few posters Stuff... Originally by: Senily Originally by: Bhattran Stuff... My turn.... stay with me.. in the year 2011, Automation software can get this.. randomize!! Part of what I do as my job, is Automate tedious tasks for other people using computers. Some of the code I use, incorporates Randomization.. Hmm, what a concept! Honestly, I get a kick out of all the ideas people brew up in these over exagerated threads. Yes, there are some very good ideas, but people need to realize just how sophisticated some of the new automation software really is, and how creating a challenge for the "Bot" authors only results in a higher cost to the person that purchases it. Want to stop RMT and Bots? seriously? then remove the thing they cater to. Make all Currency NO TRADE Make all Items NO TRADE As long as there is a free and open economy, free market, then, people are going to find ways to cheat, automate, bot, and all of the rest of the things that real life economies offers, that includes scamming and stealing. Senily, The point of my suggestion is to reduce the effectiveness of the bot (i.e. its ability to mine/rat/whatever for extended periods) to be more in line with your style of play. If the bots have to act more like real humans (i.e. get tired after 5 hours, can't do more than 1 23 hour marathon a month, have to leave the house for a few hours most days, etc.) 1. They will be closer to the letter, if not the spirit, of the EULA clause on macros. 2. Their impact on the economy will more closely match that of your above average miner. The problem hasn't gone away, but it has been reduced in severity. I suppose the response to this would be more accounts running bots to make up for it, but there has to be a break over point somewhere. At some point the number of bot accounts supported with PLEX has to become too expensive to be worth it. The sheer number of clients required for one person to remain profitable would be unrealistic? Again, someone with better access to stats/more experience with play-for-free might be able to give better insight on this. I'm glad I've managed to spark some proper discussion here. The last few posts have been a refreshing dose of rational thought as opposed to emotional rants. Keep it up. -- Phoenix Phoenix sums up part of the 'point' of fighting bots IMO, making them 'act' more like regular players so they don't get all the benefits of being able to play 'all the time' or at 'inhuman' rates, I'd add that they should also have to continually 'adapt' or update their programs so it isn't a one time 'cost/effort' to get it setup and go. Yes Senily there can be randomization but it is an extra step, even if is a 'minor' one to add because it is yet another thing the botter/bot maker has to 'deal' with. To really make use of it in more than a handful of aspects the bots would become more like a 'normal' player and thusly reap less rewards. Simply shifting your 400million isk income or 2 billion m3 volume of ore sessions around during the day or week or month still can be looked at and made to toss a flag. As far as removing the open market it is one of EVE's strengths and CCP likes the scamming/stealing aspects of gameplay it makes EVE what it is. I don't expect to ever have bots be 100% dead and that isn't the point IMO, I'm sure others may want that at any cost but not me, I want them actively 'fought' and made to keep updating/reworking their cheats rather than sitting back after doing it once or x times for each character/account. I'd think another thing to combat botting, is making gameplay less susceptible to their use, more dynamic and interactive gameplay so it isn't so easy to script or boring you want to script it. While RMT is a part of the issue I am focusing on botting as it is here where CCP isn't really motivated as they already work against their competition for player's cash. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.01 10:57:00 - [719] I cant believe that CCP just don't see this many topics about the same problem across the entire EVE forums...
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.02.01 11:13:00 - [720] I can't believe that the players actually believe that CCP is doing nothing. More to the point, I can't believe that players claim to see bots in operation, and don't take action against the bots themselves. Players require a far lower burden of proof to claim someone is a bot and unleash their righteous fury upon the evildoers. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]

Musashi IV	Posted - 2011.02.01 13:23:00 - [721] Instead of these worthless expansions CCP should be doing something to get rid of Macro users!!
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.02.01 14:04:00 - [722] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 01/02/2011 14:06:09 Originally by: Eden Love Originally by: Musashi IV Just by changing one menu item you knocked out a lot of macro users. If you randomized every menu everytime its opened you will kill all macros. +1 This bot problem schould be attacked by honest player base much more. A thread wont make it at all. How about a 1 day protest which could be expanded to 1 month without sub? How about mass petition CCP? Above idea would be a big time success against botters! What did CCP do against botters? Have they any idea? If you really want to do something to stop bots. Then do what I suggested in an earlier post. Create an alt, train it to use a basic cloak. Take it out in a frig to 0.0 (start in the drone regions)in a known botting system and then when you log off, go to work, sleep, load that afk guy and afk cloak in that system. This will completely remove the ability of all bots in that system from botting because the bots auto-dock / cloak if a nuetral is in their system. If enough people do this it will substantially reduce profits for the bots and it costs you virtually nothing. What would be useful is starting up a bot-intel channel for everyone who afk cloaks so that you can find / coordinate your afking against bots. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.02.01 14:56:00 - [723] Reposting important link: Originally by: Elanor Vega Edited by: Elanor Vega on 30/01/2011 12:36:33 there is Anti Bot Petition in Assembly Hall too: [Request] Anti Bot Petition .
Keta Fraal Nul and Booleans	Posted - 2011.02.01 16:34:00 - [724] Hey! Guess what ladies? There is bot trading in RL! Wiki article AND in the future there will be bots to mine as well: http://www.solve.csiro.au/0505/article5.htm So maybe we need to rethink what these functions will entail in eve since all the smart people in our real world have figured it out. Any solution that does not reduce the tedium of mundane gaming is only hindering progress. Find a solution that makes third party bots obsolete or you are wasting effort. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated.
Rubet Gold	Posted - 2011.02.01 17:42:00 - [725] The whole thing about being against "Bots" is really very Ironic.. We play this game on a "Computer" We are all aware of the practical uses of computers in the Automation and Industrial Robotics world right? All over the globe, people are making billions of real cash inventing systems to make our life easier and most of us suck this stuff up to no end. Eve has an Open Ecomomy just like the real world, are we to expect people will treat it any differently? So, I have been playing MMOs for close to 12 years I guess, and all games that have an open economy have "Bot" and RMT problems. Whether I agree with or like "Bots" really does not matter. I think the game world / Developers need to find a new dynamic to deal with this type of reality in the virtual world. "Virtual Goods" have taken a HUGE part/segment of the gaming world, even Face book is now involved in getting their "Cut" from people that want to buy junk for their Farm thing, what ever that game is. What I am saying, is not that I agree there should be "Bots" in Eve, but there needs to be a very new Dynamic to deal with this part of the Virtual world we all play in rather than just going on a "Bot Busting Rage" Bot Busting Rages, really, just do one thing, they entice more competent developers into the field of developing game bots and then more money can be charged for them which in turn I would imagine just increases the desire to have more Bots per operator. For all of you that seem to have the Million ideas to make the game more complicated to thwart bots, that is a FAIL direction, the types of Software that are available to automate these days is simply amazing, and has become very professional. I just dont think Busting Bots is the answer, something new is needed, and please, lets NOT talk about Micro Transactions for Eve. Thats all I have to say in this rediculas thread lol, enjoy!
Optimus Night	Posted - 2011.02.01 23:34:00 - [726] For me it comes always back to this point: Botters/Macros have an unfair advantage against "honest" players. This is a fact!!! Everyone who opposes this must be affilated in some sort to Botters/Macros or is just plain stupid. Just read this Interview: http://www.evenews24.com/2010/12/08/rmt-uncovered-the-interview/ "How much roughly you sold to players over the whole time period? (in isk and dollars/euros ) roughly in 9 months 1.2 trillion isk for around 55k euro" Big alliances tolerate and/or use Bots/Macros. CCP knows this and does nothing against it(or we dont know about it) Tells me and every other honest player: No chance to suceed at eve without cheating If I move to 0.0 sec I cant suceed ever cause Alliances will use isk which was generated through Bots/Macros to fight me. I cant win against this behaviour ever cause the hours a day me and other honest players play does never ever match the hours Bots/Macros can generate ISK. This frustrates me. So why even bothering building up a industrial backbone over many months when I will never have the chance to succeed against those using Bots/Macros. ATM I want to quit but hate to throw away all the time (and REAL money) I invested. CCP? THINK! Ban those Bots/Macros and make the Game/client safe and fair to use for everyone. If this means that some parts of the game need to be changed/lost - so be it otherwise this will turn into bot online! The backbone of this game are not the Bots/Macros. We the honest players are the base of this game. We do pay your jobs. Without us Eve is nothing! Loose some money banning and stopping the Bots/Macros and earn even more in making eve an even better and fair game as it is(was). Please!
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.02.02 11:54:00 - [727] Originally by: Optimus Night For me it comes always back to this point: Botters/Macros have an unfair advantage against "honest" players. This is a fact!!! Everyone who opposes this must be affilated in some sort to Botters/Macros or is just plain stupid. Just read this Interview: http://www.evenews24.com/2010/12/08/rmt-uncovered-the-interview/ "How much roughly you sold to players over the whole time period? (in isk and dollars/euros ) roughly in 9 months 1.2 trillion isk for around 55k euro" Big alliances tolerate and/or use Bots/Macros. CCP knows this and does nothing against it(or we dont know about it) Tells me and every other honest player: No chance to suceed at eve without cheating If I move to 0.0 sec I cant suceed ever cause Alliances will use isk which was generated through Bots/Macros to fight me. I cant win against this behaviour ever cause the hours a day me and other honest players play does never ever match the hours Bots/Macros can generate ISK. This frustrates me. So why even bothering building up a industrial backbone over many months when I will never have the chance to succeed against those using Bots/Macros. ATM I want to quit but hate to throw away all the time (and REAL money) I invested. CCP? THINK! Ban those Bots/Macros and make the Game/client safe and fair to use for everyone. If this means that some parts of the game need to be changed/lost - so be it otherwise this will turn into bot online! The backbone of this game are not the Bots/Macros. We the honest players are the base of this game. We do pay your jobs. Without us Eve is nothing! Loose some money banning and stopping the Bots/Macros and earn even more in making eve an even better and fair game as it is(was). Please! Signed!
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.02.02 21:29:00 - [728] Originally by: Keta Fraal Hey! Guess what ladies? There is bot trading in RL! Wiki article AND in the future there will be bots to mine as well: http://www.solve.csiro.au/0505/article5.htm So maybe we need to rethink what these functions will entail in eve since all the smart people in our real world have figured it out. Any solution that does not reduce the tedium of mundane gaming is only hindering progress. Find a solution that makes third party bots obsolete or you are wasting effort. You are suggesting / you want to automate mining and trading??? "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes"
Geil Ding	Posted - 2011.02.02 22:49:00 - [729] My solution for the botters though: An ingame captcha! It works for forums, it will work for the game. For example: After 50 NPC killed and you are in warp to the next NPC's you will get a popup with a captcha. When you give the right words/letters your ship will land if not your game will exit/disconnect. Same for mining or certain ammount of order given/changed on the market. I have yet to see a bot which can break a good captcha
Skull Fauken	Posted - 2011.02.02 22:56:00 - [730] Originally by: Geil Ding My solution for the botters though: An ingame captcha! It works for forums, it will work for the game. For example: After 50 NPC killed and you are in warp to the next NPC's you will get a popup with a captcha. When you give the right words/letters your ship will land if not your game will exit/disconnect. Same for mining or certain ammount of order given/changed on the market. I have yet to see a bot which can break a good captcha CAPCHA stopped being useful for forums multiple years ago, Forum spamming by bots got that covered when OCR became a widely usable option. As has been discussed already, many BOTs use OCR extensivley.

sinisterdave	Posted - 2011.02.03 01:57:00 - [731] ok, heres the most (well to me anyway) obvious soultion to macros. make it leagal and reduce the amout off roid fields in hi sec, with 30k+ bot user in hi sec the roids will quickly run out each day forcing people out to low or nul sec to mine! And if it doesnt work, well at least everyone will have an equal advantage!
Norxil	Posted - 2011.02.03 09:27:00 - [732] Quote: CAPCHA stopped being useful for forums multiple years ago, Forum spamming by bots got that covered when OCR became a widely usable option. As has been discussed already, many BOTs use OCR extensivley. Thats not true. I have yet to see any forum with CAPCHA being flooded with spam. Also Blogspot uses this to keep botter away which normaly flood the reactions with any blogspot topic. OCR only works with stuff like books and only if the text is clear. If you want OCR to reconize your own handwriting you need to train it and then it isn't optimal.
Keta Fraal Nul and Booleans	Posted - 2011.02.03 10:46:00 - [733] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae Originally by: Keta Fraal Hey! Guess what ladies? There is bot trading in RL! Wiki article AND in the future there will be bots to mine as well: http://www.solve.csiro.au/0505/article5.htm So maybe we need to rethink what these functions will entail in eve since all the smart people in our real world have figured it out. Any solution that does not reduce the tedium of mundane gaming is only hindering progress. Find a solution that makes third party bots obsolete or you are wasting effort. You are suggesting / you want to automate mining and trading??? No. I am pointing to the fact that progress and innovation have (for the good or bad) made the game mechanic obsolete in the way of mining, trading and missioning. You will never win against those who invent a way to circumvent a system. The only suggestion that sounds feasible is to make botters easier targets to players who want to hunt them and blow them up. Be innovative. Build on the gameplay. Not restrictive by adding what would amount to a counter-bot to prevent botting. And as far as market botting goes... If anyone can figure that out, then by all means contact the S.E.C. because making money off useless market interactions is rampant with botting. --------------------------------------- Completely ignore any whining that is not toilet orientated.
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.02.03 14:28:00 - [734] Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 03/02/2011 14:28:49 Originally by: Keta Fraal Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae Originally by: Keta Fraal Hey! Guess what ladies? There is bot trading in RL! Wiki article AND in the future there will be bots to mine as well: http://www.solve.csiro.au/0505/article5.htm So maybe we need to rethink what these functions will entail in eve since all the smart people in our real world have figured it out. Any solution that does not reduce the tedium of mundane gaming is only hindering progress. Find a solution that makes third party bots obsolete or you are wasting effort. You are suggesting / you want to automate mining and trading??? No. I am pointing to the fact that progress and innovation have (for the good or bad) made the game mechanic obsolete in the way of mining, trading and missioning. You will never win against those who invent a way to circumvent a system. The only suggestion that sounds feasible is to make botters easier targets to players who want to hunt them and blow them up. Be innovative. Build on the gameplay. Not restrictive by adding what would amount to a counter-bot to prevent botting. And as far as market botting goes... If anyone can figure that out, then by all means contact the S.E.C. because making money off useless market interactions is rampant with botting. Thnx God for that "No"... :) But thats game mechanic... in real world we, in "game mechanic" of real world, have computers and with them we can automate some things... in EVE we don't have that RL computers (in EVE like separate world)... if in EVE world would be integrated some computers that could automate some parts of game, then that would be the part of game mechanic and you could use it... becouse that you cant compare that things... and that is RPG... so you must play in boundaris of that game mechanic... and game mechanic in EVE do not include Botting... "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes"
Harvey Norman Kairos Group	Posted - 2011.02.04 02:32:00 - [735] Bumpity ______________ Indigo Labs Services Feedback Thread
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.04 04:47:00 - [736] Well, they did one thing, they nerfed the Bot, uhh, drone regions. Now what they need to do is drop Incursions into every 0.0 constellation east of Geminate and south of Providence...
Ispia Jaydrath	Posted - 2011.02.04 14:39:00 - [737] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. Okay, would you mind doing something about the bots that I petitioned a month ago then? I know of a dozen more off the top of my head that I would petition if there was any sign whatsoever of somebody, you know, caring. But there isn't.
Ludacrys	Posted - 2011.02.04 15:06:00 - [738] Delay local in 0.0 by a minute and let pvpers take care of the bot problem
Gustav Knuttsen	Posted - 2011.02.04 15:34:00 - [739] Why you PPL are such a s*** ? 80% of posts are "wet dreams of teenagers". If have nothing to say STFU. And If you want to try social networking go facebook and write there down your's 15 minutes of fame... Where is moderator of this mess ? They care only about EULA stuff.. And closes topics with are "not nice" for CCP... Moderate do your job !
sarah mcjimmy	Posted - 2011.02.04 16:38:00 - [740] Originally by: Gustav Knuttsen Why you PPL are such a s*** ? 80% of posts are "wet dreams of teenagers". If have nothing to say STFU. Maybe you can take some of your own advice...

Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.05 11:01:00 - [741] Originally by: Gustav Knuttsen Why you PPL are such a s*** ? 80% of posts are "wet dreams of teenagers". If have nothing to say STFU. And If you want to try social networking go facebook and write there down your's 15 minutes of fame... Where is moderator of this mess ? They care only about EULA stuff.. And closes topics with are "not nice" for CCP... Moderate do your job ! LOL someone nead to learn what word "social" mean...
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.02.06 22:28:00 - [742] Originally by: Optimus Night For me it comes always back to this point: Botters/Macros have an unfair advantage against "honest" players. This is a fact!!! Everyone who opposes this must be affilated in some sort to Botters/Macros or is just plain stupid. Just read this Interview: http://www.evenews24.com/2010/12/08/rmt-uncovered-the-interview/ "How much roughly you sold to players over the whole time period? (in isk and dollars/euros ) roughly in 9 months 1.2 trillion isk for around 55k euro" Big alliances tolerate and/or use Bots/Macros. CCP knows this and does nothing against it(or we dont know about it) Tells me and every other honest player: No chance to suceed at eve without cheating If I move to 0.0 sec I cant suceed ever cause Alliances will use isk which was generated through Bots/Macros to fight me. I cant win against this behaviour ever cause the hours a day me and other honest players play does never ever match the hours Bots/Macros can generate ISK. This frustrates me. So why even bothering building up a industrial backbone over many months when I will never have the chance to succeed against those using Bots/Macros. ATM I want to quit but hate to throw away all the time (and REAL money) I invested. CCP? THINK! Ban those Bots/Macros and make the Game/client safe and fair to use for everyone. If this means that some parts of the game need to be changed/lost - so be it otherwise this will turn into bot online! The backbone of this game are not the Bots/Macros. We the honest players are the base of this game. We do pay your jobs. Without us Eve is nothing! Loose some money banning and stopping the Bots/Macros and earn even more in making eve an even better and fair game as it is(was). Please! +1
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.02.07 17:31:00 - [743] This last weekend an incursion hit in a system where a corp member happened to be with his freighter. He thought he was stuck, but I assured him that in high sec it only effects miners and mission runners, not hauling. So he got in a shuttle and checked out the gates and a belt. In the belt he saw cruiser wrecks, barge wrecks, and 2 pods. I guess some macros got caught, and the pods were warping back and forth, still "mining". Then he saw the shuttle wrecks and ran away. So Incursions are helping... a little.
Aessoroz Nohbdy.	Posted - 2011.02.07 17:36:00 - [744] Edited by: Aessoroz on 07/02/2011 17:37:02 Originally by: Norxil Quote: CAPCHA stopped being useful for forums multiple years ago, Forum spamming by bots got that covered when OCR became a widely usable option. As has been discussed already, many BOTs use OCR extensivley. Thats not true. I have yet to see any forum with CAPCHA being flooded with spam. Also Blogspot uses this to keep botter away which normaly flood the reactions with any blogspot topic. OCR only works with stuff like books and only if the text is clear. If you want OCR to reconize your own handwriting you need to train it and then it isn't optimal. I can provide logs of 800+ spam bots attempting to attack my forum over the course of a week, they bypassed Recaptcha like it was nothing. I had to catch them a more stupid way(they always put a country in the gmail fields ) Want to know how they did it? Simple, bot takes quick screenshot of captcha, uploads to indian outsourcing service, indians paid $.0001 per captcha quickly type in the answer and the bot gets the response.
Rubet Gold	Posted - 2011.02.07 18:49:00 - [745] Yup, do a google on "Captcha Reader", pretty amazing stuff, I watched a video for one that deciphers 51 complete captchas a minute. Captchas are so 1990s technology, waste of time these days, they just **** real people off and are a small bump in the road for a bot.
Serena Liena McNemsie	Posted - 2011.02.07 18:57:00 - [746] To me it seems bots are used because you can. Mining is not rocket science and it is kind of a pity that it is not. If there was more happening while mining, people would less afk mine. Let's say you can mine afk, but it will be far from the optimal yield. While the roid is being sucked out you need to adjust various settings to keep the yield at an optimum level. Maybe also overheating of the mining equipment could be a factor that needs to be taken into consideration (or even the equipment working best at an optimal temperature). Yeah, bots would still be possible, but I would see two advantages: 1) People might find mining a lot more interesting and therefore not afk mine as much to keep their yield up. 2) You could tweak the system in a way that not tweaking will be punished. Bots would of course still be possible, but the development of a good bot would devour way more resources in real life.
Eden Love	Posted - 2011.02.07 19:06:00 - [747] Just use the petition window. -> F12 Mass petition all the bots you see in your system. Just drag and drop the character from local to petition mail. They are easy to spot. They do perfectly strip mine the belts. Its easy. Sadly when you read in bot forums they jsut tell that CCP is doing nothing against them and you certainly only get some whining from them when they think they got reported. So report!
Catheryn Martobi	Posted - 2011.02.07 20:54:00 - [748] Saw someone mention removing local to curb bots. While I do agree we should be rid of local chat (at least in 0.0), it's not a solution for botting. Bots can be configured to keep a DirScan open and filter for probes or combat ships. As soon as they see one they take off. Also, CCP can't get rid of local in highsec, too many people use it, then all the bots would just move to highsec and it would be even more barren. If CCP has some sort of way of telling where botting is very frequent they could manually drop incursions on it until they come up with a more permanent solution.
Sully Kajahazuum	Posted - 2011.02.07 21:24:00 - [749] Originally by: Catheryn Martobi Saw someone mention removing local to curb bots. While I do agree we should be rid of local chat (at least in 0.0), it's not a solution for botting. Bots can be configured to keep a DirScan open and filter for probes or combat ships. As soon as they see one they take off. Also, CCP can't get rid of local in highsec, too many people use it, then all the bots would just move to highsec and it would be even more barren. If CCP has some sort of way of telling where botting is very frequent they could manually drop incursions on it until they come up with a more permanent solution. You don't even have to remove local though. Just do what's done in WH's and have only people that talk show up in local chat. That way, if people want to say someting (for example in jita), there's nothing stopping them from doing so, but it would also mean that bots, (and lazy carebears :P) would have to be using the dscanner/wouldn't be able to predict when a ganking was gonna come. Having roamed the drone regions alot, this would things far easier then bubbling every belt/undefended pos lol.
Vortura	Posted - 2011.02.07 22:15:00 - [750] Originally by: Sully Kajahazuum Originally by: Catheryn Martobi Saw someone mention removing local to curb bots. While I do agree we should be rid of local chat (at least in 0.0), it's not a solution for botting. Bots can be configured to keep a DirScan open and filter for probes or combat ships. As soon as they see one they take off. Also, CCP can't get rid of local in highsec, too many people use it, then all the bots would just move to highsec and it would be even more barren. If CCP has some sort of way of telling where botting is very frequent they could manually drop incursions on it until they come up with a more permanent solution. You don't even have to remove local though. Just do what's done in WH's and have only people that talk show up in local chat. That way, if people want to say someting (for example in jita), there's nothing stopping them from doing so, but it would also mean that bots, (and lazy carebears :P) would have to be using the dscanner/wouldn't be able to predict when a ganking was gonna come. Having roamed the drone regions alot, this would things far easier then bubbling every belt/undefended pos lol. What would stop a botter from having the scanner window open and continuaously scanning and when a shiptype pops up in the scanner to instruct the botter to safe and cloak up? I personally would just prefer that CCP include a local process scanner and if it finds a process for an application that is known to create macros, then it terminates the EvE Client proccess, logs the API User ID, and bans the API User ID on multiple attempts. User would then need to create a petition to unban the account, and explain their actions and address the accusation of being a botter.

Catheryn Martobi	Posted - 2011.02.07 22:37:00 - [751] Originally by: Vortura Originally by: Sully Kajahazuum Originally by: Catheryn Martobi Saw someone mention removing local to curb bots. While I do agree we should be rid of local chat (at least in 0.0), it's not a solution for botting. Bots can be configured to keep a DirScan open and filter for probes or combat ships. As soon as they see one they take off. Also, CCP can't get rid of local in highsec, too many people use it, then all the bots would just move to highsec and it would be even more barren. If CCP has some sort of way of telling where botting is very frequent they could manually drop incursions on it until they come up with a more permanent solution. You don't even have to remove local though. Just do what's done in WH's and have only people that talk show up in local chat. That way, if people want to say someting (for example in jita), there's nothing stopping them from doing so, but it would also mean that bots, (and lazy carebears :P) would have to be using the dscanner/wouldn't be able to predict when a ganking was gonna come. Having roamed the drone regions alot, this would things far easier then bubbling every belt/undefended pos lol. What would stop a botter from having the scanner window open and continuaously scanning and when a shiptype pops up in the scanner to instruct the botter to safe and cloak up? I personally would just prefer that CCP include a local process scanner and if it finds a process for an application that is known to create macros, then it terminates the EvE Client proccess, logs the API User ID, and bans the API User ID on multiple attempts. User would then need to create a petition to unban the account, and explain their actions and address the accusation of being a botter. Process scanners can be too easily avoided by changing your bots naming conventions or simply hiding it. Most of the 'professional' botters have their own software where they could easily change the process name and recompile it whenever they wanted. Preventing bots would be a lot harder than coming up with a solution that makes it too hard to make a bot, or allowing us to take care of the botters ourselves. More complicated ratting or mining seems like the most likely candidate at the moment.
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.	Posted - 2011.02.07 22:44:00 - [752] Originally by: Norxil Quote: CAPCHA stopped being useful for forums multiple years ago, Forum spamming by bots got that covered when OCR became a widely usable option. As has been discussed already, many BOTs use OCR extensivley. Thats not true. I have yet to see any forum with CAPCHA being flooded with spam. Also Blogspot uses this to keep botter away which normaly flood the reactions with any blogspot topic. OCR only works with stuff like books and only if the text is clear. If you want OCR to reconize your own handwriting you need to train it and then it isn't optimal. Poor you stuck in 2003... http://caca.zoy.org/wiki/PWNtcha
gfldex	Posted - 2011.02.08 12:30:00 - [753] Originally by: Tom Gerard Acording to my minmatar friend, who is a worthless scrapheap of human genetic garbage, like all their kind, CCP has no grounds to punish anyone legally for botting. They can. Anybody who playes a game in some sort of league (CCP might need to register it as a leage first) can be charged with fraud if they cheat, take drugs, bribe ppl, etc. pp. AFAIK, no gaming company tried that yet. Might be worth it. At the other hand it could backfire because paying the game with a PLEX-for-ISK might be income and need taxing. State debts, you know.
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.02.08 14:51:00 - [754] Originally by: Infinity Ziona If you really want to do something to stop bots. Then do what I suggested in an earlier post. Create an alt, train it to use a basic cloak. Take it out in a frig to 0.0 (start in the drone regions)in a known botting system and then when you log off, go to work, sleep, load that afk guy and afk cloak in that system. This will completely remove the ability of all bots in that system from botting because the bots auto-dock / cloak if a nuetral is in their system. It's actually much easier than that, and cheaper too. Take a noob character fresh out of the box, put it in one of the T1 EW frigs, & fit 3 ECCM-Is for the appropriate race. Skills required are Racial Frig II, Electronics I & Electronic Warfare I. All 4 races are cap stable with no other modules or skills. Think it ****es people off when a character with some skills & isk invested camps them out? Wait for the tears a day old noob in a few 100k isk of ship generates.
Dark Assassin15 Failed Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.02.08 15:05:00 - [755] Originally by: Kara Sharalien Edited by: Kara Sharalien on 06/12/2010 00:06:18 In this wall of text showdown, WHO WILL WIN? Riverini, of Majesta Empire, got the jump on our challenger, Cyrus Doul, and has surpassed all expecations in the area of atrocious spelling. HOWEVER, Cyrus has demonstrated considerable technique, and none could contest that his text is even more densely compacted and unreadable then his opponent, who made the critical fumble of including one paragraph break per three paragraphs! This is sure to be an interesting matchup, back to you in the studio John! ^^ Priceless........ ---
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.02.09 19:33:00 - [756] Originally by: Optimus Night For me it comes always back to this point: Botters/Macros have an unfair advantage against "honest" players. This is a fact!!! Everyone who opposes this must be affilated in some sort to Botters/Macros or is just plain stupid. Just read this Interview: http://www.evenews24.com/2010/12/08/rmt-uncovered-the-interview/ "How much roughly you sold to players over the whole time period? (in isk and dollars/euros ) roughly in 9 months 1.2 trillion isk for around 55k euro" Big alliances tolerate and/or use Bots/Macros. CCP knows this and does nothing against it(or we dont know about it) Tells me and every other honest player: No chance to suceed at eve without cheating If I move to 0.0 sec I cant suceed ever cause Alliances will use isk which was generated through Bots/Macros to fight me. I cant win against this behaviour ever cause the hours a day me and other honest players play does never ever match the hours Bots/Macros can generate ISK. This frustrates me. So why even bothering building up a industrial backbone over many months when I will never have the chance to succeed against those using Bots/Macros. ATM I want to quit but hate to throw away all the time (and REAL money) I invested. CCP? THINK! Ban those Bots/Macros and make the Game/client safe and fair to use for everyone. If this means that some parts of the game need to be changed/lost - so be it otherwise this will turn into bot online! The backbone of this game are not the Bots/Macros. We the honest players are the base of this game. We do pay your jobs. Without us Eve is nothing! Loose some money banning and stopping the Bots/Macros and earn even more in making eve an even better and fair game as it is(was). Please! nicely put.
Gareth Ultari	Posted - 2011.02.09 21:45:00 - [757] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Originally by: Infinity Ziona If you really want to do something to stop bots. Then do what I suggested in an earlier post. Create an alt, train it to use a basic cloak. Take it out in a frig to 0.0 (start in the drone regions)in a known botting system and then when you log off, go to work, sleep, load that afk guy and afk cloak in that system. This will completely remove the ability of all bots in that system from botting because the bots auto-dock / cloak if a nuetral is in their system. It's actually much easier than that, and cheaper too. Take a noob character fresh out of the box, put it in one of the T1 EW frigs, & fit 3 ECCM-Is for the appropriate race. Skills required are Racial Frig II, Electronics I & Electronic Warfare I. All 4 races are cap stable with no other modules or skills. Think it ****es people off when a character with some skills & isk invested camps them out? Wait for the tears a day old noob in a few 100k isk of ship generates. creative, an unscannable frig that would show up on d-scan and in local. Nice. +1 for taking away local and delaying dscan in 0.0. PVPers would easily take care of the bots, no problems. Would there be bots in hi sec? Sure. Who cares, the yield there is nothing compared to the yield these guys get ratting and mining in 0.0.
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.02.10 18:04:00 - [758] Originally by: Gareth Ultari Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Originally by: Infinity Ziona If you really want to do something to stop bots. Then do what I suggested in an earlier post. Create an alt, train it to use a basic cloak. Take it out in a frig to 0.0 (start in the drone regions)in a known botting system and then when you log off, go to work, sleep, load that afk guy and afk cloak in that system. This will completely remove the ability of all bots in that system from botting because the bots auto-dock / cloak if a nuetral is in their system. It's actually much easier than that, and cheaper too. Take a noob character fresh out of the box, put it in one of the T1 EW frigs, & fit 3 ECCM-Is for the appropriate race. Skills required are Racial Frig II, Electronics I & Electronic Warfare I. All 4 races are cap stable with no other modules or skills. Think it ****es people off when a character with some skills & isk invested camps them out? Wait for the tears a day old noob in a few 100k isk of ship generates. creative, an unscannable frig that would show up on d-scan and in local. Nice. +1 for taking away local and delaying dscan in 0.0. PVPers would easily take care of the bots, no problems. Would there be bots in hi sec? Sure. Who cares, the yield there is nothing compared to the yield these guys get ratting and mining in 0.0. hmmm... WHO CARES? may be ppl that live and work in hi-sec... and thats majority...
pcydo	Posted - 2011.02.13 11:10:00 - [759] Free bump. In regards to http://www.evenews24.com/2011/02/12/the-rise-of-the-isk-printing-machines-a-case-study-on-bots/
King Kazma Usoko	Posted - 2011.02.13 12:36:00 - [760] Originally by: pcydo Free bump. In regards to http://www.evenews24.com/2011/02/12/the-rise-of-the-isk-printing-machines-a-case-study-on-bots/ i tell ya this stuff is sooo true and i dont know what ccp has done at all so far. I mean it is sooo easy for us players to make up who is bot and who is not. Why does ccp fail so hard in eliminating bots. I didnt believe so far that Ccp is accepting them because of the money they give em, thinking that they would never betray their honest playin players. Now im not so sure anymore :-/

sarah mcjimmy	Posted - 2011.02.13 12:38:00 - [761] Edited by: sarah mcjimmy on 13/02/2011 12:39:14 Originally by: pcydo Free bump. In regards to http://www.evenews24.com/2011/02/12/the-rise-of-the-isk-printing-machines-a-case-study-on-bots/ very interesting read. shame CCP don't care enough to do anything meaningful about it
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.13 13:05:00 - [762] Edited by: Othran on 13/02/2011 13:05:25 Originally by: pcydo Free bump. In regards to http://www.evenews24.com/2011/02/12/the-rise-of-the-isk-printing-machines-a-case-study-on-bots/ 1 day bans. Oh yeah you're REALLY serious about stamping out bots aren't you CCP? Total unmitigated bull***. ALL CCP cares about is the revenue stream. Nothing else is a factor as has been demonstrated on HUNDREDS if not thousands of occasions. I hope lots of people look at this and say "fck it may as well get a bot myself". Spread the word to other sites
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.02.13 13:05:00 - [763] Originally by: pcydo Free bump. In regards to http://www.evenews24.com/2011/02/12/the-rise-of-the-isk-printing-machines-a-case-study-on-bots/ Here is topic about that article, started by the same author: EveNews24.com DDoS issues and an update on our war on bots. _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Lord Evangelian Gallente The White Mantle	Posted - 2011.02.13 14:02:00 - [764] Edited by: Lord Evangelian on 13/02/2011 14:02:22 http://www.eve-bot.com/ Get sites like this shut down.... The White Mantle \| Join Channel: "Public [-TWM-]"
Arec Bardwin	Posted - 2011.02.13 14:20:00 - [765] Originally by: Othran f¡*ck it may as well get a bot myself Should be 100% safe if you don't engage in RMT activities.
Selinate Amarr Red Water Syndicate	Posted - 2011.02.13 14:35:00 - [766] Feed?!?! it should be FED!!!!!!!!!!!!! (300 joke)
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.13 14:36:00 - [767] Originally by: pcydo Free bump. In regards to http://www.evenews24.com/2011/02/12/the-rise-of-the-isk-printing-machines-a-case-study-on-bots/ Interesting article, particularly the conclusions that 3-5% of accounts are bots and that a bot is 10-15 times more industrious than a player. 310 = 30 971 = 97 97+ 30 = 127 (30/127)100 = 23.6% 515 = 75 951 = 95 95+75 = 170 (75/170)100 = 44.1% Given that the metrics are imperfect I'll say that your numbers indicate that bots account for about 20% to 40% of assets entering the eve economy, whatever way you slice it those are f'ing huge numbers. Originally by: Vortura I donÆt think CCP wants to take care of botters. Think about it. In your list there are 82 individual accounts (there may be 83 to 85, but I couldnÆt tell the separation). Each count is paying 14.99 (or stimulating the EvE Economy through time card purchases). That is $1,228.18 a month income they would lose from those 82 accounts, or $17,750.16 a year. You can bet there are just say there are 3 x that many botters in all of EvE, 246. That is $3,687.54 a month or $44,250.48 a year of loss revenue. Seems like chump change, but in the grand scheme of things, everything adds up to thousands more. The problem is far worse than this, lets go back to that 3-5% of players are bots number again: 3% of 300,000 = 9,000 = $135,000 per month / $1,620,000 per year 5% of 300,000 = 15,000 = $225,000 per month / $2,700,000 per year With those numbers it's not looking like chump change any more, in fact it's hard to see how anyone at CCP could justify getting rid of the bots despite the horrible distortions they put on gameplay. Then there's the plex factor, bots keep the price of plex down which means people can afford to run extra accounts. Let the price of plex rise too high and it becomes hard to justify that extra alt account and CCP loses more money. To give CCP any kind of incentive to get tough on bots the solution must be business driven and aimed at providing around 2 million dollars income per year. That may be a tall order but I don't think it's impossible. Changing gameplay mechanics so that players have a reasonable chance of killing bots combined with a revamp of the bounty system could well bring in the 10 to 15 thousand players needed to cover the income gap, bounty hunting is after all one of the coolest sci-fi professions and has good marketing potential. Then you've got the the player retention factor involved in having a player policed game, the sort of satisfaction that comes from beating botters over the head with a big stick is why people hang around, as summed up nicely in the article: Originally by: article This took a couple hours, but I found it more interesting and challenging than shooting at an IHUB. The downsides to the above idea are the dev time it would take to implement (which is likely to be quite substantial) and the need for PLEX sinks to replace the botters. Really I'm just throwing ideas and numbers about here, none of which are based on more than lay observations. It is clear to me however that rampant botting has the ability to kill a game, generally a slow painful death somewhat akin to cancer. Any solution must be grounded in good economic sense and be able to cover income shortfalls to protect the game as a long term investment.
Vuk Lau 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.13 14:44:00 - [768] I re-raised this issue to CCP AGAIN. Stay tuned.
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.02.13 14:50:00 - [769] Originally by: Vuk Lau I re-raised this issue to CCP AGAIN. Stay tuned. I sadly believe that as long as CCP depends on botting subscription moneys to pay their overhead, they will be disinclined to perform anything but token measures to keep the community quiet. They will never put in a real effort, since the bottom line for CCP is still, and will always be, staying in the black.
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.13 15:11:00 - [770] Originally by: Helicity Boson Originally by: Vuk Lau I re-raised this issue to CCP AGAIN. Stay tuned. I sadly believe that as long as CCP depends on botting subscription moneys to pay their overhead, they will be disinclined to perform anything but token measures to keep the community quiet. They will never put in a real effort, since the bottom line for CCP is still, and will always be, staying in the black. The problem is as much about metrics as it is about income, botter subscription money is easy to calculate and bean counters love to have things they can point at and say, "This brings us XXX income per year." What's far harder to measure is the negative impact of botting, how many industrial accounts get cancelled because people don't feel they can compete with bots? Miners for example often use 2 or 3 accounts so pushing one miner out of the game due to unfair competition has a disproportionate effect on CCP's income. Problem is that there is no real way to know how many people have closed down their industrial accounts due to botting, there's nothing for the bean counters to point at and say "Arrrgh ban the bots" even if bots are having a negative impact on CCP's income. It comes down to management having to chose between intangible concepts like the happiness of their players and solid figures like botters bring in XXX dollars. It takes a brave manager to go with their players instead of their accountant but ultimately accountants can not ensure a long term future for eve, only the players can do that.

Optimus Night	Posted - 2011.02.13 15:33:00 - [771] I really fell dumb. I feel so dumb for playing the game as it is. These botters, no matter if rmt or not, earn so much isk that I never ever can outsmart them -> Never!! I can be the best PVP pilot out there but wont suceed ever cause these botters can invest hundreds of millions a day to pay several mercs. It just makes no sense to play this game within the game mechanics cause you have no chance. Yes CCP you earn millions cause of this bots and their main characters who rule 0.0 space. BUT you will loose all other honest players soon. You need to end this or Eve will die cause this problem gets bigger and bigger. People wont shut up. Soon Eve Online will be known as BOT ONLINE and new players wont join this game. Its sad cause eve is the best space mmo out there. Please do your outmost to PERMA BAN all botters and make it your No.1 priority to make eve bot free!!! I reported several bots in my home system ONO - 3 got a time ban other ones are still up and online 20 hours a day. I am frustrated and if this problem wont get solved I will leave EVE within the next months. We need to keep this issue up until it is solved!!! Maybe CCp will have some campaign to ban botters but its not enough! You need to push this problem everyday! Goal must be to get and keep Eve bot free. Even if it can be achieved 100% it is needed to try everything to reach such a goal.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.02.13 15:41:00 - [772] The TL;DR is that most likely until there is a real alternative to eve if you want an open-ended player driven MMO (doesnt necesarily have to be space based for me) CCP will condone botting since they are also subscriptions. When legit players have an alternative they might realise they should do something about it.
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.02.13 16:13:00 - [773] Really great article. Provided me with a solid feeling that CCP doesn't give a rip about this issue. Recently moved down to 0.0 and was sort of surprised to find out that some of my corpies hunt bot for sport; with the blue bots being the sweetest meat). When the bot thing is so pervasive, that you run into them on a daily weekly basis, things are out of control. Unless CSM can throw the players a lifeline and try to talk some sense into CCP, this prob will continue. The author made it quite cleat that 1) bots are relatively easy to id (even with low-tech means), 2) their use is common, 3) the isk they make is HUGE, 4) consequences from CCP are negligable. The advantage that the bot-moguls have over honest players is BS and unbalances this game to the point that the "reality" of how alliances hold SOV is suspect. While I want to believe that the majority are hard-working, honest players, I do wonder how many of these empires are propped up on the backs of the machines.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.02.13 16:47:00 - [774] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 13/02/2011 16:52:46 Originally by: yani dumyat 3% of 300,000 = 9,000 = $135,000 per month / $1,620,000 per year 5% of 300,000 = 15,000 = $225,000 per month / $2,700,000 per year It's not that simple. Botters pay for their subscriptions with PLEX, i.e. their earned ISK. If they are removed, PLEX-RMTers will simply have a slightly harder time selling their PLEX for ISK (demand for PLEX will go down) and thus PLEX price will go down a bit. Which means that CCP might actually make more money if bots are removed due to a) RMTers needing to sell more PLEX for the same amount of ISK b) RMTers needing to sell even more PLEX because they need more ISK (prices go up when bots are gone) Also, do not forget the disproportionate server load bots cause: many times more than a player (whose subscription is not cheaper). So, it's probably in CCP's best interest to remove bots and they know it. The only positive aspect for CCP is inflated PCU numbers, I hope they don't value that more than anything else. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Malas MiserableFaith	Posted - 2011.02.13 16:48:00 - [775] very nice topic
pcydo	Posted - 2011.02.13 18:10:00 - [776] Originally by: Pan Crastus The only positive aspect for CCP is inflated PCU numbers, I hope they don't value that more than anything else. I would like to see PCB (Peak Concurrent Bots) metric. It is a shame that unfair game mechanic is being advocated (not being dealt with) by CCP. Sometimes it makes me feel that bot development is sort of CCP underground work, for extra cash (bots do cost real cash).
Darth McDarth	Posted - 2011.02.13 18:13:00 - [777] Edited by: Darth McDarth on 13/02/2011 18:13:02 Not this thread again. I know botting is bad and all but... ITS SPELLED FED FFS
Ger Tomard Caldari Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan	Posted - 2011.02.13 18:26:00 - [778] Nobody seems to mind there is ZERO proof macroland exists. If it there was proof CCP would have fixed it already. [QUOTE]I think the next time you make one of these bad threads on this character, or any alt, you will be having a nice vacation to help work on making better threads. [/QUOTE] CCP finally acknowled
Gella Darru	Posted - 2011.02.13 18:30:00 - [779] Originally by: Ger Tomard Nobody seems to mind there is ZERO proof macroland exists. If it there was proof CCP would have fixed it already. look at you! You are duuuuumb. Just wow.
Ger Tomard Caldari Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan	Posted - 2011.02.13 19:15:00 - [780] Originally by: Gella Darru Originally by: Ger Tomard Nobody seems to mind there is ZERO proof macroland exists. If it there was proof CCP would have fixed it already. look at you! You are duuuuumb. Just wow. If you have any proof send it to a GM, without proof this is all just slanders. [QUOTE]I think the next time you make one of these bad threads on this character, or any alt, you will be having a nice vacation to help work on making better threads. [/QUOTE] CCP finally acknowled

Eden Love	Posted - 2011.02.13 19:33:00 - [781] Originally by: Ger Tomard Originally by: Gella Darru Originally by: Ger Tomard Nobody seems to mind there is ZERO proof macroland exists. If it there was proof CCP would have fixed it already. look at you! You are duuuuumb. Just wow. If you have any proof send it to a GM, without proof this is all just slanders. have fun reading GM's usually just give a 1 day ban it seems
Zyno 04	Posted - 2011.02.13 22:14:00 - [782] Look what 1 player did without CCP Help > http://www.evenews24.com/2011/02/12/the-rise-of-the-isk-printing-machines-a-case-study-on-bots/
Eden Love	Posted - 2011.02.13 22:22:00 - [783] Originally by: Zyno 04 Look what 1 player did without CCP Help > http://www.evenews24.com/2011/02/12/the-rise-of-the-isk-printing-machines-a-case-study-on-bots/ Thats nice and I will join but whats with all the bots under protection of big alliances? The Bots grinding in High sec?
Emilie Sunstrider	Posted - 2011.02.13 22:31:00 - [784] I guess that ccp dont realize how bad the bots are for possible new players. i saw a lot of blogs mmo related (not eve only) talking about the bot party that eve is. eve = the bot game.
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.13 23:11:00 - [785] Originally by: Pan Crastus Edited by: Pan Crastus on 13/02/2011 16:52:46 Originally by: yani dumyat 3% of 300,000 = 9,000 = $135,000 per month / $1,620,000 per year 5% of 300,000 = 15,000 = $225,000 per month / $2,700,000 per year It's not that simple. Botters pay for their subscriptions with PLEX, i.e. their earned ISK. If they are removed, PLEX-RMTers will simply have a slightly harder time selling their PLEX for ISK (demand for PLEX will go down) and thus PLEX price will go down a bit. Which means that CCP might actually make more money if bots are removed due to a) RMTers needing to sell more PLEX for the same amount of ISK b) RMTers needing to sell even more PLEX because they need more ISK (prices go up when bots are gone) Also, do not forget the disproportionate server load bots cause: many times more than a player (whose subscription is not cheaper). So, it's probably in CCP's best interest to remove bots and they know it. The only positive aspect for CCP is inflated PCU numbers, I hope they don't value that more than anything else. Fair point, removed the paragraph about PLEX from my post, will try and proof read in future. Rest of it still stands though.
Zygapoph	Posted - 2011.02.14 01:14:00 - [786] there are 2 sides to the bot problem... pro's who wants to spend all their time mining rather than playing? it keeps ore prices down, keeps costs for everything else down. Con's makes it tough for honest players to make some money mining. tough to compete price wise with manufacturing. some solutions are to only buy from players that you know are not bots. make the game more dynamic so it would be really tough to bot. make it so you have to actively have to guide your mining laser not just target the closest asteroid and come back in 10 mins. perhaps the asteroid belts actually move so they are not in a static bookmark-able location. make the risks for mining in lower sec belts more profitable. right now you can have a safe bot running in high sec and make lots of money, the bots will go where it is profitable.
Miss Ficelle	Posted - 2011.02.14 09:19:00 - [787] Edited by: Miss Ficelle on 14/02/2011 09:19:37 Set perma incursions in the bot systems !! And please ccp, do consider the intel given by players ! Refer to evenews24 article (the rise of the is printing machines, a case study) http://www.evenews24.com/2011/02/12/the-rise-of-the-isk-printing-machines-a-case-study-on-bots/
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.14 13:39:00 - [788] Edited by: Severian Carnifex on 14/02/2011 13:39:21 Well... when I see posts like this: Originally by: Priscilla Fancypants Look man. The problem is pretty simple and you all are pretty dumb if you agree with the first post. 90% of the people in this channel are too stupid to use botting, so they ***** that they have to make money the old fashioned way. CCP allows bots and as such you should learn to move with the times in [Request] Anti Bot Petition topic in Assembly Hall, and see that CCP ignore this problem completely... it seems that that guy speaking the truth... if you want to play EVE, you need to Bot... and more and more people are coming to the same conclusion...
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.14 15:02:00 - [789] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 14/02/2011 15:04:40 The EVE24 article is pretty dammning, is proof that XDeath and Solar at the best condone, at worst RUN whole bot networks. There is at least enough there to warrant a thorough investigation of those involved up to and including their senior leadership (ie: anyone in those alliances with director roles) with punishments up to forfeiting Sov and being forced to disband with permabans if it proves to be true. What is ironic is that the investigation showed by and large the renters in the "Bot Regions", such as IRC, are innocent of botting which is largely done in XDeath/Solar space instead. I'd always assumed that most of the "renter alliances" were shells created by XDeath/Solar to keep their own hands directly clean. Apparently this is not so, the renters exist up there simply so that there are at least some ACTUAL NON BOT PLAYERS living in the drone regions! What will CCP do? Nothing. Why won't CCP do anything? Greed. They make more money off the bots than they do the non bots. Bot accounts are paid for in ISK for plex codes. A regular subscription nets CCP $15/month (USD). An account paid for by plex nets them $17.50/month (USD). CCP, is an extra $2.50 worth a ruined economy and ****ed off players? It is no accident that serious efforts by CCP against bots (think "Unholy Rage") ENDED when the plex system was put into the game and GTC prices were raised to a premium (the discontinuation of the old 30 and 90 day codes). CCP is afraid that the demand for plex items (and thus the incentive to buy the 60 day plex GTC) will COLLAPSE if they truly cracked down on bots. I believe that they would, the whole plex market in Jita is being supported by the buy orders of botters. CCP can get away with this as long as people don't notice what is going on. But it's clear that botting has become a detriment to the game. More than 1/3rd of 0.0 is being locked up in sov by alliances that are profiting in real money off the destruction of the game economy, the inflation of the cost of goods (because they inject too much ISK into the market) and the deflation of the price of minerals. Now, this said, I have nothing against Russian players in EVE. I've played with many of them, fought with and against many of them. But it is very clear WHERE the bots are running and who is doing it. Now is the time for honest players within those alliances from Etherium Reach down to Omist to turn in the rats. File petitions reporting those within your corps and alliances who are running these operations. If anyone were doing this in my corp or alliance, you bet your ass I'd be the first to blow the whistle. Again to CCP: Games are over. It's time to take this seriously. You need to investigate and ban these people. You need to add tools to the UI to make it easier to capture and submit reports of bots to the GM's (I'm thinking a "Report Macro/Bot" option in the UI which captures from the logs information specific to identifying bots). You need to DEDICATE GM's to all time zones to handle these reports.
Assegai Developments	Posted - 2011.02.14 15:40:00 - [790] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 14/02/2011 15:04:40 What will CCP do? Nothing. Why won't CCP do anything? Greed. They make more money off the bots than they do the non bots. Bot accounts are paid for in ISK for plex codes. A regular subscription nets CCP $15/month (USD). An account paid for by plex nets them $17.50/month (USD). CCP, is an extra $2.50 worth a ruined economy and ****ed off players? It is no accident that serious efforts by CCP against bots (think "Unholy Rage") ENDED when the plex system was put into the game and GTC prices were raised to a premium (the discontinuation of the old 30 and 90 day codes). wrong jack. subscriptions can get MUCH cheaper. for example, a 6 month membership i think is 75 US$, or roughly 12 US$ a month. if you go yearly i think it brings it more or less to 10 US$ a month. that means plex buying almost DOUBLES their income in comparison to the best subscription choice (and 50 % increase in comparison to some of the worst, 3 month)

Whyumadtho	Posted - 2011.02.14 17:50:00 - [791] Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. Anyone got a link to this promised info? I read the devblog and it had no 'info'.
Eden Love	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:05:00 - [792] Originally by: Whyumadtho Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. Anyone got a link to this promised info? I read the devblog and it had no 'info'. Its not only about RMT its also about players who gain an unfair advantage through financing their corporations and alliances with bot money. Thats as bad as RMT..wtf its even more **ed up cause RMT guys take the money out of the game while players who bot to gain isk to fight others use this money directly against all honest players. We know that RMT's give a ** to the game. But the dumb idiots who run Bots and play the game should be banned permanently cause they are the biggest threat to the game.
Whyumadtho	Posted - 2011.02.14 18:35:00 - [793] Originally by: Eden Love Originally by: Whyumadtho Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. Anyone got a link to this promised info? I read the devblog and it had no 'info'. Its not only about RMT its also about players who gain an unfair advantage through financing their corporations and alliances with bot money. Thats as bad as RMT..wtf its even more **ed up cause RMT guys take the money out of the game while players who bot to gain isk to fight others use this money directly against all honest players. We know that RMT's give a ** to the game. But the dumb idiots who run Bots and play the game should be banned permanently cause they are the biggest threat to the game. No link then? :(
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.02.14 20:52:00 - [794] Edited by: Elanor Vega on 14/02/2011 21:04:10 Originally by: Eden Love Originally by: Whyumadtho Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. Anyone got a link to this promised info? I read the devblog and it had no 'info'. Its not only about RMT its also about players who gain an unfair advantage through financing their corporations and alliances with bot money. Thats as bad as RMT..wtf its even more **ed up cause RMT guys take the money out of the game while players who bot to gain isk to fight others use this money directly against all honest players. We know that RMT's give a to the game. But the dumb idiots who run Bots and play the game should be banned permanently cause they are the biggest threat to the game. +1 P.S. I'll quote myself from other thread: Originally by:** Elanor Vega Thats resonable... if you cheat you need to pay for it... there are so many ways to fight against Botting... why not implement what many other multiplayer games did... why not implement some sort of PunkBuster bot detection program??? other games that have it don't have this many Bots... i know, i know... now I will be attacked by botters that are concerned about theirs "privacy"...
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.14 22:35:00 - [795] Here's a thought, CCP currently make no money from botting whatsoever, at no point does the botter ever reach in to their pocket and give them money. If CCP were to put up NPC buy orders for plex at say 350 million isk then plex prices would have a floor below which they could not sink. The people who actually pay cash to buy plex would keep giving CCP money and we could get rid of the botters with no financial loss to CCP. The more I think about it the argument that CCP won't ban bots because of all the accounts they pay for is completely false.
DeBingJos Minmatar The Reformed Chaos Theory Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.15 09:59:00 - [796] Bump for keeping this topic on the first page.
Badvar EXTERMINATUS. Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.02.15 10:20:00 - [797] signed
Jimboga Did I just do that Ultra-violence	Posted - 2011.02.15 10:47:00 - [798] bumping ... not sure if this has any point to it though, considering the show of force in Uemon last night, the horrible lag and sheer amount of ISK that was on display, so much of this game needs fixing its starting to become a joke.
Illwill Bill Reign of Anarchy	Posted - 2011.02.15 11:26:00 - [799] Originally by: yani dumyat If CCP were to put up NPC buy orders for plex at say 350 million isk then plex prices would have a floor below which they could not sink. No, just no. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
IsoMetricanTaliac 2 Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.02.15 12:05:00 - [800] Each & EVERY single game that has ever had RMT'ing going on in it suffers in many many ways. What I am struggling to understand with what goes on in EVE is the fact that it's very well known that certain people/alliances/corps are up to their necks in this trade yet nothing ever gets done. Examples of just how negative an impact this sort of thing has on the game isn't hard to find if you have a good look at the people who are known for this sort of thing & the things they do/are able to do when it is their livelihood on the line. Yeah it's always so easy to pass it off as something else & it seems that this practice of looking the other way is being used a lot. Sure not everyone within the alliances that are involved are also involved in the RMT side of things but it surely wouldn't be too hard to work out who is doing what when you have access to all & any information the game log-files etc might be able to show up. I guess at this stage the main question is why is it that nothing is being done to these people who are at the top of the control ladder for the farming/RMT'ing? Is CCP really serious about getting rid of these leeches or is it a case of being worried about all the RL $$$$ that would be lost due to the shear amount of accounts that would/could end up being banned? OR are there more sinister reasons that go to higher levels? <doubtful> I guess the game is coming to a stage where many of the older players are giving up knowing only too well that it won't be stopped & will probably become even more blatant which in the end ruins any hope of fair or decent fights in 0.0 when fighting these people or trying to take/hold space from them. <It is amazing just how motivated people can be when their RL could be at stake & they are also usually very good at motivating other people to help them without really knowing the true story> Anyway there are several New space based MMO's happening now, so could that end up being enough to make CCP do something to hold onto it's players? In a Time When Many Will Seek Death, There Will Always Be Those Like Me Who Won't Mind Helping Them Along Their Way!?!

Jowdra Amarr GalTech Shipyards	Posted - 2011.02.15 12:48:00 - [801] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. # This is i guess CCP talking smack once again. They tried this a year ago and a year before that.. in fact they tried this method of communication when the old vet players started reporting macro miners back in 2003!!!! yet ccp always comes back with PR Bullshyte. Time to learn ccp or time to hand over all your rights to whitewolf. people are getting sick of rmt and bots.. as for dealing with as quickly as possible.. i had a petition 3 weeks old.. put it into rules and what happens.. the GM convo's the bot gets a reply and then ceases to investigate.. the thing is i know the account holder in Real life and i almost asked him to copy and paste the convo they had.. wish i had the link it would show how useless CCP are at handling bot petitions. i pay to play this game to enjoy the subscription to this game.. i should really go grab myself a bot and stop paying.. let some poor innocent mug pay for the game on my behalf..
sarah mcjimmy	Posted - 2011.02.15 14:29:00 - [802] Originally by: Jowdra i should really go grab myself a bot and stop paying.. let some poor innocent mug pay for the game on my behalf.. I'm not going as far as that. But CCP is never getting another penny of mine. DUST 514 did seem interesting once, however, it will now be bypassed (if it ever gets released) and I will forever let some other poor sap pay for my account via PLEX (yes, I know how they work). It's a shame really as Eve is all I really play but I refuse to fund Bot Online.
Angel of Night	Posted - 2011.02.15 14:38:00 - [803] It would be about time to see some real actions against the bots and not just empty promises or some cosmetical 1 to few day bans like it has been so far. big bump for the topic.
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2011.02.15 15:37:00 - [804] Botting and hacked clients (aka the 'Sphere) are the one thing that will kill this game. Normally I laugh at the "eve is dying" crowd, as they are proven wrong repeatedly, however looking at other mmos they do suffer a loss of customer retention - especially casual players - once RMT and botting become prevalent or even mandatory. Eve is in a unique position to combat this nefarious activity. As a sandbox mmo with very few safety nets or protection from players it is much easier for CCP to allow players to police this activity. Bots by their nature are repetitive and rely on knowns to make their decisions. Players on the other hand are much better at the judgement call, and thus removing sources of 100% accurate intel will favour players over bots. Oh and free bump.
Inanna NiKunni	Posted - 2011.02.15 15:41:00 - [805] read this CCP last night i was roaming with my main and run into those exact same bots - exhibiting the exact same behavior http://www.evenews24.com/2011/02/12/the-rise-of-the-isk-printing-machines-a-case-study-on-bots/
pcydo	Posted - 2011.02.15 16:09:00 - [806] Bring the Unholy Rage 2. Let the next dev blog look like this: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=687 . We all know you can, CCP!
Buzz Narrenschiff	Posted - 2011.02.15 16:19:00 - [807] This is an idea I've had bouncing around. Hopefully one of you folks out there better versed in the area of crypto can tear it down, and tell me if it would or would not work. Here goes: One of the key points I've seen regarding bots is they can be run with a non-EVE client. In order to make things less efficient on the botting side, would there be a way to include an encrypted "token" into the actual EVE client? Something like a phone-home using public keys, if my limited crypto memory serves me. The main problem I see, is trying to figure out a way to make the verification of client server side, without having to worry about "don't trust the client". It wouldn't stop botting, but if the idea worked, it would force them to go "back" to running OCR clients, which is less efficient CPU wise.
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.02.15 16:24:00 - [808] Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 15/02/2011 16:28:01 Originally by: pcydo Bring the Unholy Rage 2. Let the next dev blog look like this: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=687 . We all know you can, CCP! Unholy Rage 2 would do nothing... even in that DEV blog you can see that they ban Botters only for ONE DAY... you see how it's marked on Memory Augmentation diagram "Temporary bans expire"... and thats ONE DAY AFTER Unholy Rage... Unholy Rage is only marketing trick... if CCP wants to do something they must fight botters all the time and not only when public relations department says so... and even then you see that its one time mass ban for only one day... P.S. 800 replies passed... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.15 17:51:00 - [809] Originally by: Illwill Bill Originally by: yani dumyat If CCP were to put up NPC buy orders for plex at say 350 million isk then plex prices would have a floor below which they could not sink. No, just no. Why thank you for your well informed and comprehensive reply.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.15 17:52:00 - [810] Originally by: Assegai Developments Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 14/02/2011 15:04:40 What will CCP do? Nothing. Why won't CCP do anything? Greed. They make more money off the bots than they do the non bots. Bot accounts are paid for in ISK for plex codes. A regular subscription nets CCP $15/month (USD). An account paid for by plex nets them $17.50/month (USD). CCP, is an extra $2.50 worth a ruined economy and ****ed off players? It is no accident that serious efforts by CCP against bots (think "Unholy Rage") ENDED when the plex system was put into the game and GTC prices were raised to a premium (the discontinuation of the old 30 and 90 day codes). wrong jack. subscriptions can get MUCH cheaper. for example, a 6 month membership i think is 75 US$, or roughly 12 US$ a month. if you go yearly i think it brings it more or less to 10 US$ a month. that means plex buying almost DOUBLES their income in comparison to the best subscription choice (and 50 % increase in comparison to some of the worst, 3 month) Excellent point. I didn't even think of that as I assumed most people subscribed monthly (as I do). As a policy, and CCP than thank SOE for this, I will not pay for more than a monthly subscription at a time so I don't end up ripped off for a year of game time (as SOE did to me) because of an unwanted game change (NGE) that leaves me with no desire to continue to play. So, with the bots consuming PLEX, which is the MOST EXPENSIVE means of subscribing to EVE, CCP has an economic interest in favoring them over us.

yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.15 18:00:00 - [811] The phrase 'CCP won't do anything about the bots because of all the accounts they pay for' has become something of a mantra in these bot threads, it is however complete rubbish. Botters pay for their accounts by buying plex with isk, they do not bring a single cent, penny or any other useful attribute to the game, they are leeches and parasites, nothing more. The people who bring money in are the ones who use RL cash to buy plex, once bought those plexes become what in business terms is known as a liability. That is to say the plex can be applied to your account at any time and CCP will be liable for providing the service but will not receive any more money. If CCP got rid of all the bots today the demand for plex would drop and so would their isk price. This means that players who had previously been paying RL cash would start using plex to run their accounts, this could quite easily leave CCP a situation where there income was less than their outgoings until the surplus plexes on the market were used up and isk prices stabilized. Without being able to see CCP's accounts it's impossible to say how much of a problem this might be, there is however one underlying truth. If getting rid of bots causes CCP any financial problems then it is to do with the plex system and entirely of their own making. If CCP need to meddle in the plex market in order to preserve their cash flow while getting rid of bots then I think that's fair enough, as long as they get rid of the bots.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.15 18:01:00 - [812] Originally by: Whyumadtho Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. Anyone got a link to this promised info? I read the devblog and it had no 'info'. You can't report what doesn't exist. CCP's response to EVE24's very thorough documentation of XDeath/Solar macros was a 24 hour ban of the macro accounts. I don't think that's taking this problem seriously by even the least serious person's standards. The investigation in that article shows that the only reason why CCP isn't crushing this problem is because they are too lazy to. After all, the RMT store that will come with Incarna and "Twilight Online: Emo Teen Vampires and the Teen girls (and their middle aged mothers) who love them" will (they think) bring in money, whilst improving our existing game won't. Remember the Dev who said (in the infamous "get back to us in 18 months" post) that their data doesn't show that polish and bug fixing gets them subscribers? All it would take is a simple DB query checking for characters that have been logged on far longer than the average (such as 20 hours or more) that has received an extraordinary amount in bounties or looted alloys, then assign GM's to investigate. There is zero evidence that CCP is doing any of that. Zero.
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.15 18:03:00 - [813] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Originally by: Assegai Developments Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 14/02/2011 15:04:40 What will CCP do? Nothing. Why won't CCP do anything? Greed. They make more money off the bots than they do the non bots. Bot accounts are paid for in ISK for plex codes. A regular subscription nets CCP $15/month (USD). An account paid for by plex nets them $17.50/month (USD). CCP, is an extra $2.50 worth a ruined economy and ****ed off players? It is no accident that serious efforts by CCP against bots (think "Unholy Rage") ENDED when the plex system was put into the game and GTC prices were raised to a premium (the discontinuation of the old 30 and 90 day codes). wrong jack. subscriptions can get MUCH cheaper. for example, a 6 month membership i think is 75 US$, or roughly 12 US$ a month. if you go yearly i think it brings it more or less to 10 US$ a month. that means plex buying almost DOUBLES their income in comparison to the best subscription choice (and 50 % increase in comparison to some of the worst, 3 month) Excellent point. I didn't even think of that as I assumed most people subscribed monthly (as I do). As a policy, and CCP than thank SOE for this, I will not pay for more than a monthly subscription at a time so I don't end up ripped off for a year of game time (as SOE did to me) because of an unwanted game change (NGE) that leaves me with no desire to continue to play. So, with the bots consuming PLEX, which is the MOST EXPENSIVE means of subscribing to EVE, CCP has an economic interest in favoring them over us. CCP DO NOT MAKE A SINGLE PENNY OFF THE BOTS, PLEASE CAN WE KNOCK THIS MYTH ON THE HEAD!
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.15 18:04:00 - [814] Originally by: yani dumyat The phrase 'CCP won't do anything about the bots because of all the accounts they pay for' has become something of a mantra in these bot threads, it is however complete rubbish. Botters pay for their accounts by buying plex with isk, they do not bring a single cent, penny or any other useful attribute to the game, they are leeches and parasites, nothing more. True, the PLEX market is seeded by non botters. The sick part of all this is that the botters create inflation (making end products more expensive due to their massive ISK injections) and depress the value of things we might sell (such as minerals) because that is what they are flooding the market with which helps DRIVE THE DEMAND FOR CASH FOR ISK to begin with! In other words, the botters hurts legitimate players twice.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.15 18:08:00 - [815] Originally by: yani dumyat CCP DO NOT MAKE A SINGLE PENNY OFF THE BOTS, PLEASE CAN WE KNOCK THIS MYTH ON THE HEAD! Yes they do. Bots drive DEMAND for PLEX, which stimulates supply. If the bots were eradicated the PLEX market would collapse in value. Before bots got really out of hand PLEX items were cheaper on the market (selling for under 300M), whilst now they seem to have hit a 320-340M ISK floor, supported by botter demand.
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.15 18:15:00 - [816] Originally by: Severian Carnifex Edited by: Severian Carnifex on 14/02/2011 13:39:21 Well... when I see posts like this: Originally by: Priscilla Fancypants Look man. The problem is pretty simple and you all are pretty dumb if you agree with the first post. 90% of the people in this channel are too stupid to use botting, so they ***** that they have to make money the old fashioned way. CCP allows bots and as such you should learn to move with the times in [Request] Anti Bot Petition topic in Assembly Hall, and see that CCP ignore this problem completely... it seems that that guy speaking the truth... if you want to play EVE, you need to Bot... and more and more people are coming to the same conclusion... This is wrong. Read what you just said again will u?
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.15 19:36:00 - [817] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Originally by: yani dumyat CCP DO NOT MAKE A SINGLE PENNY OFF THE BOTS, PLEASE CAN WE KNOCK THIS MYTH ON THE HEAD! Yes they do. Bots drive DEMAND for PLEX, which stimulates supply. If the bots were eradicated the PLEX market would collapse in value. Before bots got really out of hand PLEX items were cheaper on the market (selling for under 300M), whilst now they seem to have hit a 320-340M ISK floor, supported by botter demand. No they don't. Botters do not at any point shell out RL cash to CCP. A liability (plex) can be thought of like an advance payment to CCP more than straight income, every time someone uses one to pay for an account that's a month's income CCP won't receive so the money received from the plex has to be used to cover the gap. What the botters have done is create a plex bubble and CCP have received a lot of advance payments on game time, if the plex market collapses then it will affect CCP's cash flow, however the effect on their overall income will be negligible. So I say again, botters do not bring money in to the game.
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.15 19:49:00 - [818] Originally by: Jack Gilligan True, the PLEX market is seeded by non botters. The sick part of all this is that the botters create inflation (making end products more expensive due to their massive ISK injections) and depress the value of things we might sell (such as minerals) because that is what they are flooding the market with which helps DRIVE THE DEMAND FOR CASH FOR ISK to begin with! In other words, the botters hurts legitimate players twice. Just adding this for QFT
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.15 19:52:00 - [819] I dont get why ppl even buy isk in this game when you can get it from CCP in the form of PLEX. Hm... Buy it illegitimately and get banned or Buy it legally from CCP
Captain Mung	Posted - 2011.02.15 19:53:00 - [820] I guess what CCP is saying is "**** it we don't care! lolz!" So let's all start botting, apparently it's not against the rules (well it's written in the rules, but c'mon it's not in the real rules). I was getting tired of "grinding" for isk anyways. So, hey DRF, post up your botting programs and instructions so we can all have fun with this new sensation!

gfldex	Posted - 2011.02.15 20:07:00 - [821] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira I dont get why ppl even buy isk in this game when you can get it from CCP in the form of PLEX. Same reason super rich people do tax fraud. Cheating and getting away with it is much more rewarding than just being lame.
Valcerus	Posted - 2011.02.15 20:57:00 - [822] I hate bots, it makes me feel bad knowing that all the effort I put in to make my hard earned isk has been doubled by a bot next to me.
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.02.15 23:40:00 - [823] Originally by: Valcerus I hate bots, it makes me feel bad knowing that all the effort I put in to make my hard earned isk has been doubled by a bot next to me. Only doubled? that's huge understatement... they make much more than that... unfortunately...
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.16 00:20:00 - [824] Originally by: Aquila Draco Originally by: Valcerus I hate bots, it makes me feel bad knowing that all the effort I put in to make my hard earned isk has been doubled by a bot next to me. Only doubled? that's huge understatement... they make much more than that... unfortunately... and CCP doesnt care so long as theyre making their 6 mil in profits a year. As long as the botters are helping them do this, yeah you get the picture
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.16 03:39:00 - [825] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 16/02/2011 03:43:17 Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 16/02/2011 03:42:01 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira I dont get why ppl even buy isk in this game when you can get it from CCP in the form of PLEX. Hm... Buy it illegitimately and get banned or Buy it legally from CCP Who the hell is CCP banning? Right now there is absolutely NO RISK involved in massively making ISK by botting, nor honestly in purchasing ISK. Who the hell is CCP permabanning? That's right, NO ONE, not even people caught red handed as running bots, with irrefutable proof, banned 24 hours then back botting again! Really, if I were going to buy ISK right now, I'd use a trial account, a disposable gift card VISA and get it from Mother Russia. It's a better value than purchasing PLEX, you'll get about 40% more ISK per dollar. Then use some sort of contract "scam" to transfer the ISK to your main. That's what the farmers are doing. This is foolproof and CCP cant' (nor won't) do a damn thing about it. Of course, I'd not do any of that, I'm too honest, but it does sort of illustrate the problem. CCP doesn't give a flying crap about buying ISK nor it's effect on the game, or they never would have introduced PLEX. Instead, they have decided to enter the market themselves by creating PLEX, which is the perfect catalyst for botters which itself exploits the real players. CCP doesn't' care about that, they just want a piece of the action. People who buy PLEX items and sell them for ISK are buying from the SAME SOURCE as those who buy directly from the illicit sites. The only difference is CCP is the middle man, consider them the "Chribba" in this transaction. The extra expense in doing it "honestly" via PLEX purchase from CCP is their profit. Which is why I recommend if you are going to buy ISK, go buy ISK, forget the PLEX. Buying it from CCP is the biggest scam there is, you get less and risk nothing more. And besides, if we cut out the PLEX middle man and CCP ceases to pocket extra money from it they might get ****ed off enough to actually engage in "Unholy RAGE" again and actually go after botters. Which would end up making the game better. What I'd do if I were CCP: Permaban and disband bot alliances. Make it clear that it's the responsibility of alliances to NOT permit bot operations under their tags. Permaban ISK buyers. Kill the supply AND demand.
Captain Mung	Posted - 2011.02.16 05:45:00 - [826] ^^ Why even buy the isk in the first place? Botting is ok haven't you heard? Just start botting yourself! Still waiting on some member of the DRF to post up some good botting programs! C'mon guys share the wealth so we can all bot.
Sator Nyatt	Posted - 2011.02.16 05:53:00 - [827] I dislike bots, in general, feels like cheating to me. However! IT is unfortunately something that won't go away. CCP doesn't want to really get rid of these for many reasons: As stated, it fuels the plex market. Bots buy plex with isk, this isk goes to players who sell plex, who bought them off CCP. CCP selling plex cards is the same as making drugs legal - you can buy it, no risk, but its got a higher cost due to tax. People will buy isk, this is a smart move by CCP, cause now people will buy THEIR isk. CCP sells this game on the blob. Dominion and Tyrannis trailers both heavily feature large fleet warfare. There was a battle in Uemon yesterday between RUS and NC. 22 titans were fielded, 110+ supers, plus carriers, dreads, etc. OVER 100 SUPERS. They LOST 12 titans in the battle. You cannot have these battles without bots. Even if people spent the time grinding isk for the supercarrier, you need a million human miners in hisec to get together the amount of tritanium that was on the field in these supercaps. And no one would risk them then in these blobs, because you get lagged, you lose 15 billion isk. If that takes you 12 months to get back again, you don't undock the super (or just don't buy them). Bye bye supercap fleet battles (which may not be a bad thing...). Lastly, if you crunch bots, mineral prices shoot up, and ships get more expensive until capital ship production/demand slows. Ice shoots up, and icefuel gets a lot more expensive. Hisec POSes get harder to run between PI and ice, and so T2 ships get more expensive, and PVP suffers as a result, as PVPers can't afford to lose ships as frequently. So hurting bots hurts the most important things in EvE for CCP - Plex (and CCPs profit), Large Fleet battles (CCPs 'main' marketing tool) and to some degree, access to PVP, which is what EVE is supposed to be about. PS - Personally i don't care about large fleet battles or CCP's profit margin, so i'm all for Unholy Rage II: The Ragening. Bots detract from the game more than they add to it. CSM - want to stop Supercap blob proliferation? Hit the bots, come back in 6 months, and see how many supers are still fielded.
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.16 06:12:00 - [828] Edited by: Richard Aiel on 16/02/2011 06:12:49 Originally by: Sator Nyatt There was a battle in Uemon yesterday between RUS and NC. 22 titans were fielded, 110+ supers, plus carriers, dreads, etc. OVER 100 SUPERS. They LOST 12 titans in the battle. Is it me or has this just gotten ridiculous now? I remember when losing a titan was a major thing Now these guys sneeze and 16 titans are gone and noone cares lol ------------------------------------------------ CCP you are your own worst enemy. ------------------------------------------------
Katarina reid	Posted - 2011.02.16 06:42:00 - [829] if all u get is a slap on the wrists and only on the bot account. why not join them? atleast till you get your first couple of warnings. off to sort my 2nd pc and a vpn.
Jessie42 Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.02.16 07:42:00 - [830] A lot of dumb pubbies in here that's for sure. I'll give you one quick easy solution to null sec bots: Delayed Local.

James Tiberius Kirk	Posted - 2011.02.16 09:04:00 - [831] Edited by: James Tiberius Kirk on 16/02/2011 09:08:30 Originally by: Sator Nyatt CCP sells this game on the blob. Dominion and Tyrannis trailers both heavily feature large fleet warfare. There was a battle in Uemon yesterday between RUS and NC. 22 titans were fielded, 110+ supers, plus carriers, dreads, etc. OVER 100 SUPERS. They LOST 12 titans in the battle. You cannot have these battles without bots. Even if people spent the time grinding isk for the supercarrier, you need a million human miners in hisec to get together the amount of tritanium that was on the field in these supercaps. And no one would risk them then in these blobs, because you get lagged, you lose 15 billion isk. If that takes you 12 months to get back again, you don't undock the super (or just don't buy them). Bye bye supercap fleet battles (which may not be a bad thing...). Those are pure Pros of the situation, not the cons. As for the mineral prices, ~~when,~~ if, bots get banned, miners might actually make some decent ISK and we might start seeing more mining OPs in 0.0, which fulfills the CCP's homogeneous 0.0 environment dream. Its all PROs so far, only con being the PLEX and the additional manpower that would be required. We all know Incarna, WoD and Dust takes it all so it wont ever happen. Edit: We already have too much ISK, and too much minerals in the market. I wouldn't be surprised if yesterdays titan losses were already replaced within hours. Ships, even titans mean nothing to big alliances. There's so much money and mineral in the game, only limiting factor is time. CCP needs to reduce ISK and Mineral faucet, or needs to add additional ISK sinks. Otherwise economy will crash in long term.
betty drunkenlord	Posted - 2011.02.16 09:17:00 - [832] To people who think bots earns ccp rl money because of additional plexes: calculations for 1 bot +15 USD / month for ccp -300 USD / month for ccp (because more or less % of it's isk is finally converted to rmt and sold to other players. The cash which was supposed to go to ccp filled RMTraders wallets) = 15 - 300 = 285 USD / month LOSS for ccp per single ratting bot
FOXX IS dutch viper squadron viperfleet	Posted - 2011.02.16 10:15:00 - [833] Come on, only 2 replies from CCP. This is pathetic. This tread needs more support And for the isk spammer thingy, I made numerous petitions as they suggest in the dev blog and many of them remain unanswerred. Not even a word of thanks, sorry, but I no longer spend the time to create the petition, replying with a word of gratitude should be the least. We should be rewarded for taking the time of doing their job. Some ideas, which don't create inbalance on tranquility * Extra SP on the test server * ability to request faction stuff on the test server, you can't buy these fancy faction mods on the market yet * get some points so we can get our other petitions handled faster (some take a week or more to get a reply and then you get the reply: "is the issue still needing our attention?") Don't tell me it is that hard to scan the evemails that are send out. I'll give a hint "... \| grep -i isk \| grep -i buy"
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.16 10:31:00 - [834] Originally by: CCP Spitfire Breaking EULA, or encouraging others to do so, is not allowed. Spitfire Nice to see CCP's sense of irony is alive and well
Major Atrocity	Posted - 2011.02.16 10:56:00 - [835] Originally by: Jessie42 A lot of dumb pubbies in here that's for sure. I'll give you one quick easy solution to null sec bots: Delayed Local. eont change a thing for botters. they KNOW when someone elters local. they have "cheats" running similar to how bacon used to work. someone enters local the bot client knows and warps off .. assuming its not scrambled.
Isus Jarode Gallente Sons of Ivaldi	Posted - 2011.02.16 10:58:00 - [836] Edited by: Isus Jarode on 16/02/2011 10:58:42 From what I'm hearing, bots remind me quite a bit of the argument for and against illegal immigratant laborers in the United States. Their very existence aggravates a lot of people, but if you eliminate them then your pretty little world is shot to all hell. Sounds to me like bots are a necessary evil that's not going away. Though if they were eliminated, then this game could get a LOT more interesting... in both good and bad ways. Good luck with the fight folks.
speedek Destructive Influence	Posted - 2011.02.16 11:06:00 - [837] Delayed local in 0.0 CCP PLEASE!
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.02.16 11:20:00 - [838] Originally by: Severian Carnifex and see that CCP ignore this problem completely... it seems that that guy speaking the truth... if you want to play EVE, you need to Bot... and more and more people are coming to the same conclusion... Not true. I do not bot and play Eve and I have fun doing it. But I will agree that botting is raising the isk bar for the entire playerbase. Botting is to Eve that steroids are to professional sports. In essence botting puts honest players at a disadvantage. It inflates the economy with cheap minerals and cheap mods. And it may be to a point that Eve is now dependent on it to make the economy work. IDK. Obviously, if there were a concerted effort to remove botting from the picture mineral prices would spike. This should lead more people into mining due to increased profitability. But perhaps there aren't enough players manually mining to provide enough minerals into the Eve economy. IDK. Only CCP knows these things. And I think their lack of action is telling us that this is exactly how they want it to work.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.02.16 11:35:00 - [839] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 16/02/2011 11:35:38 Quote: Breaking EULA, or encouraging others to do so, is not allowed. Spitfire Is it allowed to ask you to actually enforce this mithical EULA on the botters, then? This is not hot news. When people see criminals getting ALL the good and NO consequence they start following them crashing the whole system. Then you will be forced to fight botters but it'll be too late, because people will start mass quitting the game. Edit: the nine mackinaws botter I meet every single day and posted about for months is - guess what - still here. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.16 11:40:00 - [840] Originally by: Katarina reid if all u get is a slap on the wrists and only on the bot account. why not join them? atleast till you get your first couple of warnings. off to sort my 2nd pc and a vpn. I hate to say it but mass civil disobedience like that might be the only thing that can force their hand. They clearly aren't listening to us and intend to keep shouting LALALALA!!!!! when it gets pointed out to them where and who the most egregious botters are.

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.16 11:40:00 - [841] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edit: the nine mackinaws botter I meet every single day and posted about for months is - guess what - still here. As are the 20+ courier bots I petitioned - who to my sure and certain knowledge have been petitioned (and temp banned) 4 times now. CCP are NOT serious about removing botters from the game. They want to keep the isk faucets running and so all the botters get is a slap on the wrist. Bad bot! Don't do it again - oh wait you already did. Several times
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.02.16 11:42:00 - [842] Edited by: Malcanis on 16/02/2011 11:42:48 Originally by: Captain Mung Breaking EULA, or encouraging others to do so, is not allowed. Spitfire If the punishment for encouraging others to break the EULA is as unlikely and as trivial as it is for actually breaking the EULA, then why should we care? Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Grey Stormshadow	Posted - 2011.02.16 12:38:00 - [843] It would be about time to see major security upgrade to the game client and swift removal of bots and their assets from the game. Every day this game goes downhill because all the ignorance and tolerance towards the botters. If you (ccp management) really think that 1 to few day bans will stop the botters from doing their stuff again, you are either stupid (which I dont believe) or extremly hilarious (more likely). If you seriously think that entire EvE's playerbase will tolerate this bullcrap propaganda about fighting the RMT without serious punishments and removal of all the botters, you are most likely reaching the end of that road. The public awarness of this issue is growing every day and major news outlets have taken the issue to their own hands. It isn't long way to the point where general reputation and reviews of the game start to melt down also. It is funny how often it is hard act before it _was_ too late. Hopefully this doesnt turn into one of those moments too.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.02.16 12:48:00 - [844] Posting here to express my dislike of the 'tollerance' of bots. Botters should be banned the same as RMTers imho. Wack'
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.16 12:49:00 - [845] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 16/02/2011 12:55:16 Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 16/02/2011 12:54:17 Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 16/02/2011 11:42:48 Originally by: Captain Mung Breaking EULA, or encouraging others to do so, is not allowed. Spitfire If the punishment for encouraging others to break the EULA is as unlikely and as trivial as it is for actually breaking the EULA, then why should we care? I'd be more impressed if CCP actually ENFORCED this EULA thing. Why not start in the Bot Regions? Whole alliances should be disappearing after downtime if this EULA meant anything. If CCP want us to respect their EULA as anything more than a paper tiger and an excuse to delete stuff they don't want people to know they should start actually enforcing it. The lid isn't going to stay on this much longer. We got CCP's deliberate ignoring of the Dominion lag issues into the press when they nominated themselves for an award they didn't deserve and the bot story will get out as well. The bot/RMT issue is actually bigger and even more potentially destructive to EVE than the lag issues because it cuts at the heart of this game's credibility. If one group (the botters) are being allowed to flout the rules because: 1. CCP can't be bothered to deal with it (check back in 18 months) 2. CCP doesn't care because it stimulates the PLEX market which nets them extra cash If this continues this game AND CCP lose all credibility with potential players. Why bother with it and the lure of the sandbox economy if a bunch of Russian alliance botters are going to reduce the value of what you do to nothing? How long are you going to keep buying expensive ships when you know that built into the price of that ship is inflation caused by the same botters? Why bother mining or even running high end plex's for stuff to sell when cut off the TOP of the asking price you can get is the glut of minerals/items dumped on the market by the SAME botters? Why buy GTC's to sell PLEX for ISK when it's a crappy value? Especially when you consider that it's going to feed the robots to buy ISK that is of decreasing value? I also can't stand the hypocrisy. Buying ISK for cash is either good, bad, or neutral. Who is doing the buying and selling is irrelevant.
Archbeholder	Posted - 2011.02.16 13:17:00 - [846] The best thing we can do as players is simply to cancel our subscriptions. If this wont make CCP do something about botting then so be it.
Whyumadtho	Posted - 2011.02.16 13:17:00 - [847] Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. Still waiting on delivery.
Superkiller NinjaPirate	Posted - 2011.02.16 13:23:00 - [848] Edited by: Superkiller NinjaPirate on 16/02/2011 13:26:43 Edited by: Superkiller NinjaPirate on 16/02/2011 13:25:27 One day I was jumping around in Venal in my shiny cov-op. After traveling system to system and founding ratters and a huge load of guristas wreks I decided to try to takle one of those silly carebears. The plan was to takle+smak as I had no guns/drones etc. After many tries I did it. I takled a shiny Raven!! A Raven, takled by a cov-op, has many options ... the best one is to destroy the cov-op ... or just log off. He did nothing ... i tried to open a chat with him ... no answer, no yes, no denial ... tried to fleet with him, no yes, no cancel fleet invite ... the pilot remains takled for 4 hours, FOUR HOURS, with chat+fleet invites open in the middle of the screen ... from time to time, I un-takled him, and he just continued ratting like nothing happened. Keeping him tackled and playing with takle / un-takle, I petitioned it to a GM: I filled a "stuck" petition because I know they answer very fast and I wanted to be sure to make a GM see this botting behaviour. Indeed they answered fast and a kind GM said he can do nothing but escalate the petition to someone else departement ... "the **, I have him takled here, if a GM come and see will ban him for sure!". guess what ? ... after 2 weeks I went back to the system, the botter was there ratting. After 5 months I went back there ... he was there botting. I have him in contact list ... 24/7 online. I contacted the CEO of the botter ... "our corp is very against botting! we don't tolerate this !" ... guess what ? the botter is still in the corp. During time, i petitioned a number of botters ... guess what ? they are still here botting. So ... what is the conclusion of the story ? CCP do not give a ** about botters ... deal with it guys. They can say "they care" ... it is not like that, they do not. And I'm not talking about what has been exposed via EvEnews24.com (that for itself could make me vomit and change game) ... I'm talking about the infinite number of players petitions over the years. And Botting has NOTHING TO DO with RMT ... botting isks goes in the wallet of big alliances, for cap/supercap/sov/etc. or just in the wallet of players who want the shiny ship. If "ever" CCP will make a stance against RMT, they will just touch the top of the botting iceberg, and ban a small numer of traders. If CCP will make a stance against macroing (and that's whay they will never do it and continue to tell us lies) ... we will se 0.0 sov system changed radically, the entire economy back to the roots, corps and alliances loosing more than 50% of their playerbase. So again ... CCP will never ban macroers as long as they will not RMT ... happy botting everyone.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.16 13:26:00 - [849] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Why bother with it and the lure of the sandbox economy if a bunch of Russian alliance botters are going to reduce the value of what you do to nothing? Look you do yourself no favours at all by repeating this, so stop eh? This is in EVERY SINGLE SOV HOLDING ALLIANCE, BAR NONE. The Russian speaking Eve community does however seem to be deeper into this whole crappy business than most other language groups. I suspect that had a lot to do with ancient drone region nerfs and bots have evolved a lot since then such that they are in use everywhere. There are however a lot of countries that speak Russian to some extent - eg Serbia. Always pointing the finger at "the Russians" is like blaming the English for people smack talking in local because the majority of smack is in English I'm not naive. I know what goes on in the South/East. Nor am I anyones alt. Nor am I Russian or Eastern European. This is my main. The drone regions however are NOT the source of new ISK as they don't get bounties for drones so I wish people would stop going on about them as being the main problem. There are loads of bots yes but they're not injecting money into the economy. They are however cheating in-game in that they can build superiority rather than buy it (as bounty macro ratting alliances do) so from my point of view they're still just cheating scum. Being dispassionate though they do less damage to the game than the macro ratters in other null regions. If anyone wants to go rage on bots then there is NO better area to do it than Stain. NPC null so you have stations. Rats in Stain generate ISK through bounties so shut that down if you want to do cloaky stuff. CCP won't do anything other than tweak game mechanics - and don't kid yourselves, that is aimed ONLY at RMT botters. Rampant cheating will continue, but blaming the Russians for it all the time is asinine. If we're talking RMT then the US economy is flat on its arse right now - hell California alone runs a deficit bigger than most European countries - so the incentive is the same for people without a job regardless which side of the Greenwich Meridian you are. Every single corp which resides in sov-holding space have some members who always seem to be ratting. Before those corps complain, look around you. There IS someone (probably several) just like that. Until the cost of tolerating botters exceeds the cost of banning them bots will remain. I think the players (all languages) need to convince CCP to do the right thing. It's worth a try before giving up on Eve I reckon.
Superkiller NinjaPirate	Posted - 2011.02.16 13:41:00 - [850] Edited by: Superkiller NinjaPirate on 16/02/2011 13:44:28 Blaming the russian is just as CCP trying to focus our attention only on RMT (yes, rus alliances do RMT a lot, it's a fact, hads down) ... just a faint not to solve the real problem. The real botting isks goes directly in tha wallets of players/corps/alliances ... big 0.0 holding alliances. I strongly believe just a very small % of macroers do that to sell isk for real money. CCP has never and will never ban for botting not related to RMT ... CCP employs play EvE in the very same alliances that will be destroyed if botters will be banned. It's a fairy tale they don't know how things are going. The only thing to do is ... botting as everyone else do, CCP will never ban you if you don't sell isks for $$$.

gfldex	Posted - 2011.02.16 14:03:00 - [851] Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate I strongly believe just a very small % of macroers do that to sell isk for real money. How likely is it that somebody who is botting is not paying his accounts with PLEX from 4-4? So in that respect they are all ISK sellers.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.16 14:12:00 - [852] Originally by: gfldex How likely is it that somebody who is botting is not paying his accounts with PLEX from 4-4? So in that respect they are all ISK sellers. No its not. From CCPs perspective, isk generated from bounties and spent on PLEX = net revenue to CCP and neutral effect on economy. Healthy situation and really not a problem, but.... ....of course it only works if you disregard the way Eve (and its players) actually works. Which is precisely what CCP have done. Got to give them credit for it though - lovely re-inflating bubble. Just takes a loss of player confidence though and.... pop
Jefferson H Clay	Posted - 2011.02.16 15:15:00 - [853] I suspect I'm going to get yellow text but whatever. Reading the thread and making a few comments one thing is quite clear; very few people have researched bots. A lot still seem to think along the lines of dumb macro's. You'd be better off opening a web browser and visiting google, then using some generic search terms to find the people selling this stuff. They've usually got YouTube videos, forums (most of which are off limits to non-customers, but you find the occasional bug report in the public spaces) and set-up guides (which are usually pdf's). Those guides give basic defaults for you to work from... how many people running the bots do you think just keep the defaults? :) That should be enough for you to figure out exactly what this software is capable of AND what it's weaknesses are. Here's an example of a mining bot from a year or so ago: It could see Local and would respond to red/neut/blue as per settings. It could NOT detect the scroll bars or arrows so it couldn't look up & down local. So if it was in a busy system it might only see the top, middle or bottom of the list of people and the default for EVE is to only show the top... so it'd see, for example, Abraxis enter and run but it couldn't see Zulu. However if it started to register shield damage it'd check for rats, then check for players and depending on how fast it was going down either deploy drones and deal with the issue or logoff. Hulk's can throw out ECM drones and one of them getting a cycle off and 'poof' it's back at the station spamming dock. If it's shields instantly fell under X% it'd just assume it was being alpha'd and log. So you could sneak someone up on it to hold it down, then drop a large alpha gang on it... assuming the tackle slipped by it's local check. However that was a while ago and I've no reason to doubt "scrolling" is now one of its features, but I'd wager its on a timer and you could nab it in between cycles.
Superkiller NinjaPirate	Posted - 2011.02.16 15:43:00 - [854] once upon a time ... I played on an UO unofficial server. They developed an anti-macro check system: if you doing the same thing over and over (i.e. skill rising, money, materials rising check etc.) a random popup appears and you had to fill in a small digit etc. I strongly understand that this kind of things is very hard for CCP to implement and that an UO shard back in 2000 is still the vanguard of programming ... but maybe, you know, CCP should try harder. My little cousin is learning v-basic ... he could help you CCP.
Jefferson H Clay	Posted - 2011.02.16 15:51:00 - [855] Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate once upon a time ... I played on an UO unofficial server. They developed an anti-macro check system: if you doing the same thing over and over (i.e. skill rising, money, materials rising check etc.) a random popup appears and you had to fill in a small digit etc. I strongly understand that this kind of things is very hard for CCP to implement and that an UO shard back in 2000 is still the vanguard of programming ... but maybe, you know, CCP should try harder. My little cousin is learning v-basic ... he could help you CCP. Align, warp, jump, align, warp, jump... POPUP Think of all the repetitive things a fleet does on the move and exactly how much rage that going off at the wrong time would cause. Funny I know... until it happens to you.
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.02.16 15:57:00 - [856] Originally by: Jefferson H Clay Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate once upon a time ... I played on an UO unofficial server. They developed an anti-macro check system: if you doing the same thing over and over (i.e. skill rising, money, materials rising check etc.) a random popup appears and you had to fill in a small digit etc. I strongly understand that this kind of things is very hard for CCP to implement and that an UO shard back in 2000 is still the vanguard of programming ... but maybe, you know, CCP should try harder. My little cousin is learning v-basic ... he could help you CCP. Align, warp, jump, align, warp, jump... POPUP Think of all the repetitive things a fleet does on the move and exactly how much rage that going off at the wrong time would cause. Funny I know... until it happens to you. I think that point of that post was that everybody are doing something to solve botting problem... only CCP nothing...
Superkiller NinjaPirate	Posted - 2011.02.16 16:04:00 - [857] Edited by: Superkiller NinjaPirate on 16/02/2011 16:06:00 Originally by: Elanor Vega Originally by: Jefferson H Clay Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate once upon a time ... I played on an UO unofficial server. They developed an anti-macro check system: if you doing the same thing over and over (i.e. skill rising, money, materials rising check etc.) a random popup appears and you had to fill in a small digit etc. I strongly understand that this kind of things is very hard for CCP to implement and that an UO shard back in 2000 is still the vanguard of programming ... but maybe, you know, CCP should try harder. My little cousin is learning v-basic ... he could help you CCP. Align, warp, jump, align, warp, jump... POPUP Think of all the repetitive things a fleet does on the move and exactly how much rage that going off at the wrong time would cause. Funny I know... until it happens to you. I think that point of that post was that everybody are doing something to solve botting problem... only CCP nothing... this ... plus: the anti macro in UO (i repeat, back in 2000, in Ultima Online free shard ... we are in 2011 now) was able to check for specific repetitive behaviours. but you know ... it's too hard to do for CCP programmers. you can solve the botting problem in only 2 ways: 1) do sothing against 2) legalize it or make it a game mechanic (like i.e. mining in RFonline e other games) CCP is doing nothig = they don't want to solve the "problem".
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.02.16 16:30:00 - [858] Can you assume that CCP employees have a feeling that EVE is dying or that perhaps they do not make enough money, so they strike a deal with ISK selling companies and not interfere in their activities. In return they get X ~ (1-20) % of the money by a private transfer. In simple words CCP staff makes money on RMT, diverting profit from their company to their personal accounts. This can be a clear, logical explanation. Regardless of RMT aspect, botting makes eve not competitive, as non RMT players use bots to accumulate enormous volumes of isk and gain the upper hand in assets and equipment. Their enemies must make use of bots in order to close the gap in budgeting and afford better equipment. Botters force every competing pilot to resort to botting. The balance of powers gets upset and the game becomes ruined by exploiters. (I see MACRO and multiaccount MACRO as an exploit to EULA)
Heimdallofasgard APEX ARDENT COALITION	Posted - 2011.02.16 17:23:00 - [859] CCP: I know there are some flamers and trolls on these forums, but some of us genuinely want to engage in dialogue with the developers and GM's. The dev blogs and test server is awesome! It clearly shows you want to document and report your dev work to the players, and your current trend of fixing old features and bugs in the current client in the form of smaller but more frequent patches is indication that you want to polish the existing features as much as possible. So why is it when we come to the "bot issue", you all cower away and don't say anything about your thoughts or opinions on it? I know a spy in an old corp that hacked an account using third party software and he got a 12 month ban. Why not the same with botters? I noticed two or three patches back, you changed the rogue drone loot to even out mineral sources. I've also noticed more and more people getting faction drops from level 4 missions (myself included) I don't know if these are measures to try discourage botting or change how lucritive 0.0 is for making isk, but it's curious as to why these changes are being made. If botters are not being dealt with (which I hope they are) because you're worried about how the market will react, then I think you underestimate how robust it really is, take the noctis for instance... It took less than a week after it was introduced for the price of one to get down to nearly the cost of minerals to build one. If all of a sudden, 300/500 botting accounts were deleted, there would be an initial (gradual) shock to the market where prices would increase because many of the isk faucets had been turned off, but... As the isk sinks are decreased and faucets increased, the market would fill up again, because the isk wouldn't be flowing to the botters, it would be going to honest players, MORE isk for honest players. Another thing, there's quite a large null sec war on right now (if you hadn't noticed) which is putting a bit of strain on the high sec markets (phobos for 200mill?! Hah) It'd be nice to have your comments/opinions ccp, bad/good or reports of how many botters you HAVE kicked? -------
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.16 17:30:00 - [860] I'm beginning to wonder if we're poking at the edges of a scandal that could make T20 look tame? What if CCP employees are engaging in botting or even creating ISK for RMT?

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.16 17:49:00 - [861] Originally by: Opertone Can you assume that CCP employees have a feeling that EVE is dying or that perhaps they do not make enough money, so they strike a deal with ISK selling companies and not interfere in their activities. In return they get X ~ (1-20) % of the money by a private transfer. In simple words CCP staff makes money on RMT, diverting profit from their company to their personal accounts. This can be a clear, logical explanation. No. CCP as a company is maximising the revenue stream that it has NOW to the exclusion of all else. The way they are behaving its likely the revenue stream is decreasing WAY more rapidly than they thought. There are two games (one costing WAY WAY more than they got told at acquisition) hanging on the Eve revenue stream so you work it out. Employees diverting isk to their own accounts? Dream on and find another tin hat. Employees have nothing to do with it.
Richard Christy	Posted - 2011.02.16 17:52:00 - [862] Originally by: Captain Mung Breaking EULA, or encouraging others to do so, is not allowed. Spitfire Read up, apparently it is... Amusingly censored words: **, grape, ***. More to follow, no doubt.
Superkiller NinjaPirate	Posted - 2011.02.16 18:03:00 - [863] Originally by: Othran Employees have nothing to do with it. Are you so sure ? many employees play EvE like us, in the very same 0.0 alliances that rent systems to macro ratter or macro miners, in the very same 0.0 alliances that builded their supercapital/capital fleets with botting money.
Jame Jarl Retief	Posted - 2011.02.16 18:17:00 - [864] Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate One day I was jumping around in Venal in my shiny cov-op. SNIP Sadly I've yet to play an MMO where I have not seen this kind of behaviour, or an MMO where devs or GMs took a hard stance against it. In the past 5 years alone I played, let's see...18 MMOs (holy cow!), ranging from big giant "one we don't mention on EVE forums, starts with a W" down to indie titles that barely sc****d together 60k subs at their peak. And in each one, I observed exactly what you described. I too tried reporting. Nothing was ever done. Not once. At best you get a GM that says they will look into it, and that's where it ends. There was one time where I quit an MMO and came back nearly 2 years later and the very same character I reported was still botting in the exact same spot, wearing exact same gear, riding exact same mount. It was freaky, made me feel like I traveled back in time. Long story short, Ive yet to see an MMO where the developers took actual tangible action against botters. From the sound of it, EVE is no exception. Pity... :(
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.16 19:25:00 - [865] Originally by: Soma Khan Originally by: Rian O'Shea The problem is that "we" fight for the fun of it, "they" fight for their RL income so their tenacity and focus is very different from us players who "just want to have some fun". translation: we suck at 'good fights' so here's a cool and convenient reason why we're such losers A man will fight much harder for his livelyhood than for the virtual bond of rp. If you are a normal player then you don't litterally go out of your way to play the game just to make sure your isk source is kept alive. For the normal eve player they just go somewhere else and make it because its so much easier that way. For a botter who is making rl money off that isk to pay his rl bills then he will be at his computer with every hack, exploit and bot he can lay his hands on to keep him in the best areas that cater to making him money. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Omni Industrial Coalition Crooked Cross	Posted - 2011.02.16 20:06:00 - [866] Folks, just follow the money. People pay real money for Plex, to sell for ISK. Bot miners use thier ISK to buy the Plex. Where'd the cash paid to buy the Plex go? Now, show me the incentive to remove bots.
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.02.16 20:17:00 - [867] 29 page threadnaught about botting. Countless locked threads & censored posts for complaining about botting in the wrong thread. After more than 2 months, in response we've seen one very poorly received GM blog, a few posts stating that you do care about RMT and are working very hard to stop it, and one CSM summit with all conversation regarding RMT and botting redacted under NDA. CCP, your silence is speaking volumes.
Halan Devan	Posted - 2011.02.16 20:21:00 - [868] This thread is right on, CCP has had years with which to develop effective means of enforcing the EULA in regards to Bots and have consistantly failed to do so. The honest players suffer inflated prices while the issue is ignored, put off, and barely acknowledged. Sadly the only fix i can see is if the players make a huge issue about it OUT OF GAME. Forums have been shown to be pointless in seeking a resolution to this problem, the next point is to go public and cause a decision between corporate reputation with the gaming public versus allowing the bots to continue on. The EULA is a laughingstock really, secondary account botting needs to be traceable to the player paying for the account and punishment has to go out to the individual before this would stop and all of their accounts. I could not care less who is botting or how they bot, or where they are from, it just needs to stop.
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.16 20:27:00 - [869] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow 29 page threadnaught about botting. Countless locked threads & censored posts for complaining about botting in the wrong thread. After more than 2 months, in response we've seen one very poorly received GM blog, a few posts stating that you do care about RMT and are working very hard to stop it, and one CSM summit with all conversation regarding RMT and botting redacted under NDA. CCP, your silence is speaking volumes. Well there were pages and pages of locked threads and cencored posts about ccp's indifference to botting right before they banned 9000 of them during unholy rage.
Sirius Cassiopeiae	Posted - 2011.02.16 20:32:00 - [870] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow 29 page threadnaught about botting. Countless locked threads & censored posts for complaining about botting in the wrong thread. After more than 2 months, in response we've seen one very poorly received GM blog, a few posts stating that you do care about RMT and are working very hard to stop it, and one CSM summit with all conversation regarding RMT and botting redacted under NDA. CCP, your silence is speaking volumes. Well there were pages and pages of locked threads and cencored posts about ccp's indifference to botting right before they banned 9000 of them during unholy rage. yeah... and they all got temporary bans... max one month... how sexy... we see how that helped... NOT... but that "unholy rage" was good PR move... that helped only CCP... and that help was temporary too...

Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2011.02.16 20:39:00 - [871] Originally by: Sirius Cassiopeiae Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow 29 page threadnaught about botting. Countless locked threads & censored posts for complaining about botting in the wrong thread. After more than 2 months, in response we've seen one very poorly received GM blog, a few posts stating that you do care about RMT and are working very hard to stop it, and one CSM summit with all conversation regarding RMT and botting redacted under NDA. CCP, your silence is speaking volumes. Well there were pages and pages of locked threads and cencored posts about ccp's indifference to botting right before they banned 9000 of them during unholy rage. yeah... and they all got temporary bans... max one month... how sexy... we see how that helped... NOT... but that "unholy rage" was good PR move... that helped only CCP... and that help was temporary too... I would be quite interested in your 'source'. Originally by: Response to bitter carebear tears in local [19:44:46] CCP Incognito > sorry i can't talk about game mechanics. you need to use your brains and figure it out.
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.16 20:40:00 - [872] Originally by: Jame Jarl Retief In the past 5 years alone I played, let's see...18 MMOs (holy cow!), ranging from big giant "one we don't mention on EVE forums, starts with a W" down to indie titles that barely sc**d together 60k subs at their peak. And in each one, I observed exactly what you described. I too tried reporting. Nothing was ever done. Not once. At best you get a GM that says they will look into it, and that's where it ends. The difference is that the free market and holding sov are two of the main selling points in eve. If someone bots in wow it makes minimal difference to your ability to go enjoy the theme park, with botting in eve it's a totally different story. The market and your ability to outspend your enemies is the central core of eve warfare, every war I've been involved in has ended when one party has either run out of isk or failscaded. The market affects everyone from solo carebears to alliance leaders, WH corps, mercs and anyone else in the game. Once gaming sites start running articles mentioning bots in eve (and with the current level of noise they will) the whole paradigm behing eve's marketing, and to a big extent the game itself, will collapse. Originally by:** Superkiller NinjaPirate Off topic, after seeing your name I can't stop singing: Superkillerninjapirateexpialidocious, even though the sound of it is something quite atrocious...
Sirius Cassiopeiae	Posted - 2011.02.16 21:11:00 - [873] ok... and... if they were all permabanned... how did that help us in long run? we are at the same place where we would be without that "Unholy rage". that kind of PR things dont work... if botting is problem, then its problem allways... and CCP need to work on it all the time and implement things that will prevent it... and not only when PR says so... and only then...
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2011.02.16 21:35:00 - [874] CCP when will you ban supercap fleet bought on e-bay for more than 1 day. When will you disband alliances that allows botting and get direct benefit from them ( macro ravens and exquerors) When will you deal with HORDS of hi-sec macro miners , missioners, haulers, traders . ???????????????? There is very much chance some of DEVS could be dirty into RMT, becuase you are shooting yourself into leg in here.
Superkiller NinjaPirate	Posted - 2011.02.16 21:39:00 - [875] "Unholy rage" was a very good thing. The problem, and the most important thing now, two years later, is that we all see RMT in just the top of an iceberg of ****. Botting, as many of us already wrote, do not necessarily involve RMT ... and it is very likely that a vast majority of the cash from macroing is directly inejected in players/corp/alliances wallets. These dirty isks are used to build 0.0 sov empires, supercap/cap fleets, and even to maintain pvp players etc. p.s. isn't there a "wall of shame" around these boards ? with the names of players/corp/ally that do bot ? or it is something CCP will censurate fast ?
lolioverbidu	Posted - 2011.02.16 22:02:00 - [876] Its ****ing ridiculous when legitimate players have to consider botting in order to remain competitve with other people in nullsec.
HowardStern	Posted - 2011.02.16 22:02:00 - [877] Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate p.s. isn't there a "wall of shame" around these boards ? with the names of players/corp/ally that do bot ? or it is something CCP will censurate fast ? That would last roughly exactly zero point zero seconds.
Apollo Gabriel Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2011.02.16 22:33:00 - [878] Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. still waiting ... I just read the evenews story posted here and I have to say, no single writing has ever depressed me more about a game than this one... Warning Signature Detected If you need to douche, please do it at home.
Eden Love	Posted - 2011.02.16 22:47:00 - [879] ITS NOT ABOUT RMT in first place. RMT is only the tip of the iceberg. RMT is more important for CCp then for the players. I dont care if some idiot pays 40 dollar for some titan. The problem is botting and macro use to gain an advantage ingame! And about that topic CCP doesnt care. There are enough examples now that show that they dont do a damn thing. 1 day bans etc. It needs to be the number one priority to make life for the bots at least hard. You may never stop them completely. Just make the client safe! Check how the bots operate and when you got one who is 100% bot perma ban him!
Sator Nyatt	Posted - 2011.02.16 23:44:00 - [880] I doubt if any Eve employees are RMTing, unless CCP pays really really bad wages, the income stream relative to their job income probably isn't there. RMTing is much more valuable to players in countries where 15 US dollars means more than a Mcdonald's breakfast for 2. However, i would wager 100% that there are many EVE employees who play the game in large sov holding alliances that happily look the other way every day to botters. RMT may be focused into some country-demographics but botting is universal. There are many ways to catch a nullsec botter, it requires a little patience and some luck (and hopefully not finding one in a system with 23 belts) but its not that hard to do. The reality is, though, that a raven in a reasonable security system (around -0.3) can net upwards of 3-4 billion isk a month in bounties. You're looking at 6-10 billion a month in those sweet -0.8 to -1.0 systems that the big alliances keep for themselves. Plus special spawns. Killing a couple ravens doesn't really hurt the botter, it just slows them down for a day while they refit and rearm. Rental alliances often are rich with bots, because many alliances base their rental costs off the assumption you use it. Ex-IT space, you'd pay what, 2-3 billion a month in rental for a single system? Many southern areas charge slightly less, around 1-2 billion per system (plus sov fees, plus POS, upgrades, and other running costs). When you're only allowed 1 corp per system, how do you think players afford the space and still have enough money to make it worth being there? I remember being in 0.0 not too long ago, when a corpmate found a botter. Instead of shooting at them, he merely parked a cloaky alt in system, and left it there, for days and days, triggering the ratting bot to safe and cloak up. One day, he got a message from a person in the sov-holding alliance (the bot was a neut alt, though), demanding he get out of system because it was interfering with the bot. He not only freely admitted that this character was a bot, he also demanded reparations for the lost income of having said bot idle (which wasn't paid, of course). We have been about to rent space in other instances, only to have a 1.8 billion per month system taken from us and given to a 2-man corp (we were going to send neut cloakies to bankrupt him too, but in the end couldn't be bothered). These instances are pretty common. Looking over botting forums, there's plenty of chatter about why its ok to use them, and how not to get banned, and also what might trigger a ban. The EULA is written in such a way that OCR bots occupy a grey area that is against the spirit of the EULA but not the letter. The instance of bans being reported on forums like H-Bot and other EVE bot sites is very rare. Its unfortunate, CCP, that while you may have 1 or 2 devs that do not like bots, the actions of your company as a whole encourages more and more botting. You can say, "Do not encourage botting" and you can say, "Taking down botters is something close to my heart" but the reality is that no resources are allocated to it, and even when players do all the work for you, you can't be arsed to even reply to them. It would be far more economical and closer to CCP's current model to just buy the botting software and sell it from this website in a similar way you sell eve time codes. You could partner with companies selling VM server space for the purpose of running EVE clients. If you're not going to actually do something to actively or passively remove botting, then you might as well get a piece of the pie the same way you did with PLEX. Of course, the PR ramifications of encouraging and 'taxing' cheating might be rather bad, probably worse than the 'incomptent/corrupt/lazy' PR you get now re: botting. But you'd get more profit. This is a tradeoff most sov alliances already happily take.

Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.16 23:47:00 - [881] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 16/02/2011 03:59:26 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira I dont get why ppl even buy isk in this game when you can get it from CCP in the form of PLEX. Hm... Buy it illegitimately and get banned or Buy it legally from CCP Who the hell is CCP banning? Right now there is absolutely NO RISK involved in massively making ISK by botting, nor honestly in purchasing ISK. Who the hell is CCP permabanning? That's right, NO ONE, not even people caught red handed as running bots, with irrefutable proof, banned 24 hours then back botting again! Really, if I were going to buy ISK right now, Don't. Removed EULA-violating suggestions. Spitfire What I'd do if I were CCP: Permaban and disband bot alliances. Make it clear that it's the responsibility of alliances to NOT permit bot operations under their tags. Permaban ISK buyers. Kill the supply AND demand. Looks like at least the forum mods disagree
Freyja Asynjur Folkvangr	Posted - 2011.02.17 02:55:00 - [882] Some hi-sec constellations should be re-classified as bot-sec, as they're inhabited by more bots than players. In Otawasa ( http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/The_Citadel/Otawasa#const ), I would need more than six hands to count all the golem bots.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.02.17 03:42:00 - [883] Many have said that eve is heavily botted because it has repetitive activities in it that are easily botted. The proposed solution is to make the gave more difficult. If it was as difficult as the game "Jeopardy" then a bot could never play it. Oh wait.....
Cruel Crow Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate	Posted - 2011.02.17 04:00:00 - [884] I'm taking cover! They call me a bot now because I'm playing more then hr or two. What's next?
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.17 04:55:00 - [885] Edited by: Richard Aiel on 17/02/2011 04:58:32 Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate Originally by: Othran Employees have nothing to do with it. Are you so sure ? many employees play EvE like us, in the very same 0.0 alliances that rent systems to macro ratter or macro miners, in the very same 0.0 alliances that builded their supercapital/capital fleets with botting money. Theyre also known to cheat... ever hear of T20... Originally by: Jame Jarl Retief Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate One day I was jumping around in Venal in my shiny cov-op. SNIP Sadly I've yet to play an MMO where I have not seen this kind of behaviour, or an MMO where devs or GMs took a hard stance against it. In the past 5 years alone I played, let's see...18 MMOs (holy cow!), ranging from big giant "one we don't mention on EVE forums, starts with a W" down to indie titles that barely sc****d together 60k subs at their peak. And in each one, I observed exactly what you described. I too tried reporting. Nothing was ever done. Not once. At best you get a GM that says they will look into it, and that's where it ends. There was one time where I quit an MMO and came back nearly 2 years later and the very same character I reported was still botting in the exact same spot, wearing exact same gear, riding exact same mount. It was freaky, made me feel like I traveled back in time. Long story short, Ive yet to see an MMO where the developers took actual tangible action against botters. From the sound of it, EVE is no exception. Pity... :( Only one Ive seen where they did was Warhammer... they bqannedthem and put up a system message about torturing the offender to death or something lol ------------------------------------------------ CCP you are your own worst enemy. ------------------------------------------------
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.02.17 05:07:00 - [886] Ummm... Others have said it before. This is a quick and easy solution. ###### # # ###### # ## # # ###### ##### # # # # # # # # # # # # # ##### # # # # ##### # # # # # # ###### # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ###### ###### ###### # # # ###### ##### # # #### #### ## # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ###### # # # # # # # # # ####### #### #### # # ###### Seriously though, even if local was delayed for as little as one minute, this would have drastic impacts on botters. --------[Signature]-------- If at first you don't succeed... you're obviously not Chuck Norris.
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.17 05:09:00 - [887] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 When will you disband alliances that allows botting and get direct benefit from them ( macro ravens and exquerors) lol they didnt even disband the alliance that got the dev created T2 stuff in T20 OR fire the employee caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The only one I know that got banned from that was the guy that blew the whistle lol ------------------------------------------------ CCP you are your own worst enemy. ------------------------------------------------
Swanky nutjob	Posted - 2011.02.17 07:36:00 - [888] Its sad that 0.0 politics is now being affected by bot financed alliances. Really CCP, get down to the drone lands and use the information given to you to perma ban the 80 + bots you've been told about already, not just 1 day bans. Other MMO publishers take action to perma ban, even going as far as contacting ISP's to blacklist (I know, I worked at a large MMO publisher), CCP endorses botting.
Superkiller NinjaPirate	Posted - 2011.02.17 11:34:00 - [889] Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 When will you disband alliances that allows botting and get direct benefit from them ( macro ravens and exquerors) lol they didnt even disband the alliance that got the dev created T2 stuff in T20 OR fire the employee caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The only one I know that got banned from that was the guy that blew the whistle lol yeah lol ... he was banned and censored his name on forum ... ********** ... k u g u t s u m e n that explain alot about how CCP deals with cheating and stuff
Knobfer Jones	Posted - 2011.02.17 11:41:00 - [890] LOUD NOISES

Richard Christy	Posted - 2011.02.17 12:32:00 - [891] Is there a channel set up to report systems currently being used to bot rat? Amusingly censored words: **, grape, ***. More to follow, no doubt.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.17 12:36:00 - [892] Originally by: Sator Nyatt a bunch of interesting stuffs. Did you report the guy who complained about being ruined by being AFK cloaked?
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.17 13:54:00 - [893] They need to make a cloaking miner where you cant see the beams either. lol then noone will be able to complain cause noone will see them
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2011.02.17 15:11:00 - [894] Originally by: Slate Shoa Edited by: Slate Shoa on 17/02/2011 05:15:22 Edited by: Slate Shoa on 17/02/2011 05:09:24 Ummm... Others have said it before. This is a quick and easy solution. DELAYED LOCAL Seriously though, even if local was delayed for as little as one minute, this would have drastic impacts on botters. I'm pretty sure the client reading bot will show who enters system even with local minimised/delayed. All this will do is hand even more advantage to the exploiters. If not tho, I am right behind this idea. On a similar vein, perhaps a deployable object that appears to all clients identical to a real player would have an effect, a fake local/d-scan sig etc. You could simply bounce around systems dropping these and stop all botting.
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.17 15:28:00 - [895] Edited by: yani dumyat on 17/02/2011 15:30:22 Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: yani dumyat Once gaming sites start running articles mentioning bots in eve (and with the current level of noise they will) the whole paradigm behing eve's marketing, and to a big extent the game itself, will collapse. Given that there are literally bots in every mmo, and noone cares in any other mmo about them, bots in an MMO isnt something likely to get front page news anywhere on the net, and nowhere will it get enough coverage to kill EVE I didn't say that coverage would kill eve (though too many bots will eventually do so), I said that the paradigm would break down. The whole point of having a single server and free market economy is that the game isn't just pvp it's eve, everyone vs everyone. The market is the absolute core of the game, it defines everything from the ships you can afford to fly, your ability to wage war, the amount of time you have to spend carebearing to have a decent income etc. If it gets to the point where someone posts on mmorpg.com or some other forum saying they think that the sandbox, open market and player driven empires look cool, and the next 5 replies are people responding that you cant engage with any of that unless you bot then the paradigm has broken. Eve is fairly unique among mmo's and one of those unique points is its weakness to botting and the disproportionate affect bots have on every player. If that becomes common knowledge repeated by non eve players then eve is just another space mmo and the free market counts for nothing.
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.02.17 15:32:00 - [896] Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Originally by: Slate Shoa DELAYED LOCAL I'm pretty sure the client reading bot will show who enters system even with local minimised/delayed. All this will do is hand even more advantage to the exploiters. If not tho, I am right behind this idea. If delayed local is reworked such that the client doesn't have the information until it should have it, then there's no information for the bot program to get. 'Security' in 0.0 would almost loose meaning (worse in NPC 0.0), but it would give purpose back to small gang roams, and Black Ops would probably become the new FotM.
Morgen Truffaud	Posted - 2011.02.17 15:34:00 - [897] Edited by: Morgen Truffaud on 17/02/2011 15:35:07 Edited by: Morgen Truffaud on 17/02/2011 15:34:39 One more bot = One more account = $15 more for CCP per month. Bots make money for CCP. Until they don't, don't expect to see any changes. Tbh., the most honest thing CCP could do right now is change the EULA so botting is allowed. Then we'd at least have a level playing field. Having an EULA that they have no intention of enforcing is meaningless. Right now they claim they're doing something when it's quite obvious that they aren't. And why should they spend money finding bots when banning botting accounts will in all likelihood end up decreasing their revenue? It doesn't make sense. There are plenty of blogs out there where people have given CCP all the evidence needed on a silver platter and absolutely nothing happens. They're just not interested. CCP - committed to excellence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivdeuedajko
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.17 15:39:00 - [898] Originally by: Morgen Truffaud Edited by: Morgen Truffaud on 17/02/2011 15:34:39 One more bot = One more account = $15 more for CCP per month. Botters pay for their accounts with isk, CCP do not make any money from bots in fact they lose money through players quitting due to bot competition and less plex sales. Players who would have bought plex with cash (ie the people paying the ú15 a month for the botters account) are the ones who give money to CCP. Go read the last couple of pages of this thread if you don't understand how botters cause CCP financial loss.
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2011.02.17 15:52:00 - [899] Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 When will you disband alliances that allows botting and get direct benefit from them ( macro ravens and exquerors) lol they didnt even disband the alliance that got the dev created T2 stuff in T20 OR fire the employee caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The only one I know that got banned from that was the guy that blew the whistle lol Lol if that is true the more i think is that botting are just part of the system.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.17 15:52:00 - [900] Originally by: Sirius Cassiopeiae ok... and... if they were all permabanned... how did that help us in long run? we are at the same place where we would be without that "Unholy rage". that kind of PR things dont work... if botting is problem, then its problem allways... and CCP need to work on it all the time and implement things that will prevent it... and not only when PR says so... and only then... Unholy Rage DID work. If you monitor the seller sites (I do out of curiosity) the cost of ISK for real money skyrocketed after the mass bannings of botters. Before UR the cost of ISK from the RMT sites was a lot cheaper than selling GTC's. After it, they had no price advantage over GTC. That situation persisted for several months. The botters probably were reluctant to commit to setting things up again because they assumed they'd be looking at getting caught in UR II, UR III, etc. They got back in when it became clear that UR was a one time deal and NOT the establishment of a new, permanent operation against bots and RMT. At the same time, CCP got rid of the old system of 30 and 90 day GTC's which had to be transacted manually in favor of a 60 day PLEX which could be bought and sold through market orders. The new system raised the prices of GTC's to a premium over a regular subscription. Remember that 30 day codes used to cost $15 and 90 day codes $45, the new 60 day codes cost $35 which is almost as much as the old 90 day codes but gives 1/3rd less game time. So what happened was a combination of CCP ceasing any serious efforts to continue Unholy Rage AND the introduction of a system that is a macro RMT'ers dream: the ability to fund the ENTIRE OPERATION on nothing but in game currency they themselves are mass producing, AND to be able to transact it nearly anonymously. They could do the same thing in the old system but it would have required some level of interaction directly with real players, and only when sellers were online. Now they can transact game time anonymously, 23 hours a day. Is there any question, then as to WHY the proliferation of bots and RMT'ing of ISK has boomed to unprecedented levels in this environment? The cost of ISK on the RMT sites now is back down to (or below) the levels prior to UR, to the point that buying ISK itself then buying a PLEX in game with it is cheaper than the cost of an actual subscription to the game, by about 30-40%. I put the blame here COMPLETELY on CCP, for failing to sustain UR, AND for implementing the PLEX system without thought to how it would make setting up bot/RMT operations in this game so stupidly easy that we'd end up with more botters and sellers THAN EVER BEFORE? It's clearly a case of the greed of marketing overcoming the objections of designers, that is, if anyone realized what kind of monster they were introducing in the first place.

Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.02.17 15:55:00 - [901] Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 17/02/2011 15:58:05 Originally by: yani dumyat Botters pay for their accounts with isk, CCP do not make any money from bots in fact they lose money through players quitting due to bot competition and less plex sales. Bots create demand for Plex, adding value to them. People that pay cash for plex to sell then for isk do so only beacuse Plex have that value. IF bots were gone and the price of Plex crashed, how many people do you think would continue to pay cash to buy more? How many paying accounts would switch to using Plex to keep their account alive?
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.17 15:56:00 - [902] Originally by: yani dumyat Originally by: Morgen Truffaud Edited by: Morgen Truffaud on 17/02/2011 15:34:39 One more bot = One more account = $15 more for CCP per month. Botters pay for their accounts with isk, CCP do not make any money from bots in fact they lose money through players quitting due to bot competition and less plex sales. Players who would have bought plex with cash (ie the people paying the ú15 a month for the botters account) are the ones who give money to CCP. Go read the last couple of pages of this thread if you don't understand how botters cause CCP financial loss. If this were true the PLEX market would die for lack of supply, and they'd be selling for crazy prices on the market when anyone actually bothered to purchase some for sale. The bots are driving demand for PLEX on the market, which naturally stimulates supply. The bots need to operate via the ISK they farm, which they use to buy a PLEX, then use the rest of their botted ISK to sell on the market. If they were unable to do so, their real costs would rise and so would the price of illicit ISK.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.17 16:03:00 - [903] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 17/02/2011 15:55:44 Originally by: yani dumyat Botters pay for their accounts with isk, CCP do not make any money from bots in fact they lose money through players quitting due to bot competition and less plex sales. Bots create demand for Plex, adding value to them. People that pay cash for plex to sell then for isk do so only beacuse Plex have that value. IF bots were gone and the price of Plex crashed, how many people do you think would continue to pay cash to buy more? Which is why, I feel, that Unholy Rage wasn't followed up with UR II, UR III, UR IV, etc. Someone realized the PLEX system had achieved it's goal of making sure CCP get's "it's cut" of the botters RMT operations and decided to leave it that way. How long has this thread been up? What has CCP said substantively about botters or their plans to do anything about them? Not one damn thing. EVE24 does what any GM could do in minutes, discover that there are tons of "players" ratting for 23 hours a DAY, a feat humanely impossible, located within two alliances, and what does CCP do? Again, not a damn thing. (well they banned them for 24 hours, oooh that will hurt) Why do they keep relegating discussion of this to the ghetto? Because they want it to die, they HOPE that it dies. PLEX sales are booming thanks to the hungry bots, which is helping CCP's bottom line. They could care less if it affects us negatively so long as it's positive to their bank accounts. As I've said before, CCP can only demonstrate their seriousness and commitment to ridding this game of bots and illicit RMT by IMMEDIATELY bringing back the Unholy Rage campaign, as well as suspending the availability of PLEX conversion during it (so the market drains and the botters can't immediately replace their losses).
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.17 16:06:00 - [904] Edited by: yani dumyat on 17/02/2011 16:11:11 Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 17/02/2011 15:55:44 Originally by: yani dumyat Botters pay for their accounts with isk, CCP do not make any money from bots in fact they lose money through players quitting due to bot competition and less plex sales. Bots create demand for Plex, adding value to them. People that pay cash for plex to sell then for isk do so only beacuse Plex have that value. IF bots were gone and the price of Plex crashed, how many people do you think would continue to pay cash to buy more? That is a problem with the plex system that has nothing to do with botting. Botters have created a market bubble but the same bubble could just as easily have been caused by market speculation or some other means. CCP knew they were tying their RL income to the in game market when they released GTC and then plex, if their accountants have failed to account for market bubbles then more fool them. If crashing the market would cause CCP genuine harm then plex sinks can be created easily, price floors and ceilings can be created through NPC buy and sell orders or selling vanity items for micro plex are two basic mechanisms, I'm sure CCP are clever enough to think of more. EDIT, also to add that any market crash would be followed by a reduction of supply and an increase in demand, the price would stabilise once the current supply of plexes were used up. Given that plexes are essentially pre paid game time CCP should have the cash to cover such an eventuality.
Superkiller NinjaPirate	Posted - 2011.02.17 16:14:00 - [905] Stop focusing to RMT ... this is not the point. Who will pay for real money isk sellers and maybe get banned, when you can buy a bot for a few $$$ and gain all the isk you want without even paying EvE subscribtion anymore, and be very safe ? Go look at a random RMT website ... they sell you 1bil for about 35 USD ... with 35 USD you can buy a bot (or more). In one single month you repaid your investment and you also got the isk to pay 1 30day PLEX. Go read evenews24 ... 1 month of botting is even far more than 1bil. SO ... the plague is not RMT ... the plague are the isks from botting that are directly injected in players/corp/alliances wallets.
Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2011.02.17 16:15:00 - [906] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 17/02/2011 16:15:27 If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do?
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.17 16:30:00 - [907] Originally by: yani dumyat Edited by: yani dumyat on 17/02/2011 15:30:22 Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: yani dumyat Once gaming sites start running articles mentioning bots in eve (and with the current level of noise they will) the whole paradigm behing eve's marketing, and to a big extent the game itself, will collapse. Given that there are literally bots in every mmo, and noone cares in any other mmo about them, bots in an MMO isnt something likely to get front page news anywhere on the net, and nowhere will it get enough coverage to kill EVE I didn't say that coverage would kill eve (though too many bots will eventually do so), I said that the paradigm would break down. The whole point of having a single server and free market economy is that the game isn't just pvp it's eve, everyone vs everyone. The market is the absolute core of the game, it defines everything from the ships you can afford to fly, your ability to wage war, the amount of time you have to spend carebearing to have a decent income etc. If it gets to the point where someone posts on mmorpg.com or some other forum saying they think that the sandbox, open market and player driven empires look cool, and the next 5 replies are people responding that you cant engage with any of that unless you bot then the paradigm has broken. Eve is fairly unique among mmo's and one of those unique points is its weakness to botting and the disproportionate affect bots have on every player. If that becomes common knowledge repeated by non eve players then eve is just another space mmo and the free market counts for nothing. then you better not go and try that theory out... oh wait maybe you should lol id like to see if this game is as fragile as you claim
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.17 16:32:00 - [908] Edited by: Richard Aiel on 17/02/2011 16:44:40 Edited by: Richard Aiel on 17/02/2011 16:37:19 Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 When will you disband alliances that allows botting and get direct benefit from them ( macro ravens and exquerors) lol they didnt even disband the alliance that got the dev created T2 stuff in T20 OR fire the employee caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The only one I know that got banned from that was the guy that blew the whistle lol Lol if that is true the more i think is that botting are just part of the system. IF that is true? google is your friend lol its not hard to find info on T20 Originally by: Jack Gilligan How long has this thread been up? What has CCP said substantively about botters or their plans to do anything about them? The fact of how long this thread has been up and its the only bot related thread that isnt getting pruned to death or locked/deleted SHOWS their attitude towards bots: Limit it to one thread so it can be easily ignored and we can kill all the rest of the threads that try and talk about it Originally by: yani dumyat CCP knew they were tying their RL income to the in game market when they released GTC and then plex, if their accountants have failed to account for market bubbles then more fool them. Didnt they hire an actual economist for the game? Did dude work for Enron? ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.02.17 16:39:00 - [909] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do? Myself, I'd go for the 20% ban, and track the isk from those banned accounts to see where it was going. Even if you only have solid evidence to ban 1% of the mains that are directly benefitting from botting, making those bans public knowledge will have the effect of showing that botting is actually against the rules, CCP does care, and give players that are considering botting (or are not fully committed to doing it) something to think about. Reducing the efficiency of all bots by 20% would be the same as taking ~5 hours away from their day and leaving the other ~18.5 hours alone; there is still a massive advantage to botting, esp if you're fielding several of them.
gfldex	Posted - 2011.02.17 16:45:00 - [910] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do? You can't reduce efficiency of bots. All you will get are more bots to compensate.

Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.17 16:47:00 - [911] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 17/02/2011 16:15:27 If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do? Ban the botters. The drone region nerfs are clearly aimed at the Russian bot alliances, but won't do anything in the end except punish honest players and make the area even more inhospitable to anyone who isn't a bot.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.17 16:52:00 - [912] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 17/02/2011 17:06:22 Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 17/02/2011 16:15:27 If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do? If you worked at CCP and you had the choice between the bots and the company work for getting all the money or you getting a cut via GTC and plex, what would you do? Point made lol
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.02.17 17:45:00 - [913] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 17/02/2011 16:15:27 If you would work at CCP and you had the choice between banning 20% of bots and reducing all bots efficiency by 20% what would you do? As a techie person I'd ban the bots because they cause much more server load than a real player. As a game designer I'd ban the bots because they break the game for everyone. As a marketing guy I'd do nothing because bots contribute to inflated PCU numbers, so EVE can claim one PCU record after the other, knowing it's 50% or more bots. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.17 17:57:00 - [914] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira If you worked at CCP and you had the choice between the bots and the company work for getting all the money or you getting a cut via GTC and plex, what would you do? Point made lol Facepalm Because bots are the only possible plex sink ever created, CCP never ever once considered the possibility of bubbles in the plex market when they were designing the system, leaving all the bots in place so ISK selling sites can have really low prices and having a large portion of the playerbase pi$$ed off about botting is a good way to make money?
Cheekything Gallente Macabre Votum	Posted - 2011.02.17 18:02:00 - [915] I dont think banning botters will work, yes they make a massive amount of isk, however I think all that will happen is they will just improve their AI to make them more random. I do think that CCP should just make the places where botters are used less appealing for the botter and more appealing for a player who is sitting at his desk, things that require some imagination or intuition, things that bots just cannot do (or at least easily). And RMT is evil :/
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.17 18:04:00 - [916] Originally by: Cheekything I dont think banning botters will work, yes they make a massive amount of isk, however I think all that will happen is they will just improve their AI to make them more random. I do think that CCP should just make the places where botters are used less appealing for the botter and more appealing for a player who is sitting at his desk, things that require some imagination or intuition, things that bots just cannot do (or at least easily). And RMT is evil :/ Doesn't matter how "random" they make the behavior, they will always stick out like a sore thumb if CCP would bother to look. As the EN24 article stated, these guys are literally on from after downtime to next downtime. Literally 23/7. No real player could do that.
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2011.02.17 18:21:00 - [917] Originally by: Sator Nyatt As stated, it fuels the plex market. And screws up the market for legitimate players. Originally by: Sator Nyatt 22 titans were fielded, 110+ supers, plus carriers, dreads, etc. OVER 100 SUPERS. And this is a good thing? I remember when having a Titan meant something, and fielding it was a big deal. Originally by: Sator Nyatt You cannot have these battles without bots. [...] you need a million human miners in hisec to get together the amount of tritanium that was on the field in these supercaps. As it should be. Originally by: Sator Nyatt Lastly, if you crunch bots, mineral prices shoot up, and ships get more expensive until capital ship production/demand slows. Good. Cap Ships Online is a boring game to play. Originally by: Sator Nyatt So hurting bots hurts [...] to some degree, access to PVP, which is what EVE is supposed to be about. Quite the opposite. Hurting bots levels the playing field by removing an unfair, against-the-rules advantage, allowing people to compete fairly. This means less T2 blobs, less super cap blobs, and fewer silly stories of 20+ titans. That means a lower barrier to entry for everyone else. - "When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed." - CCP Big Dumb Object
Dawnmist	Posted - 2011.02.17 18:28:00 - [918] After seeing how high this entire botting issue is on CCP's "things to ignore"-list, goals and fun factor of this game have pretty much died away. Thank you for ruining it. -dawn
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.17 18:29:00 - [919] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 17/02/2011 18:32:14 Funny thing about the bots, even if all the players leave except the hard core players, more bots will join and more an more plex will be bought so CCP wiull still make money lol so quitting doesnt even hurt them to above can i have your stuff?
Archbeholder	Posted - 2011.02.17 19:08:00 - [920] Edited by: Archbeholder on 17/02/2011 19:08:26 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 17/02/2011 18:32:14 Funny thing about the bots, even if all the players leave except the hard core players, more bots will join and more an more plex will be bought so CCP wiull still make money lol so quitting doesnt even hurt them to above can i have your stuff? Funny thing about the bots, if all players leave there wont be anyone left to pay for plex lol edit:forgot lol

Ger Tomard Caldari Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan	Posted - 2011.02.17 19:47:00 - [921] Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread. Botting sure, show me RMT proof. [QUOTE]I think the next time you make one of these bad threads on this character, or any alt, you will be having a nice vacation to help work on making better threads. [/QUOTE] CCP finally acknowled
Apollo Gabriel Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2011.02.17 20:08:00 - [922] Originally by: Ger Tomard Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread. Botting sure, show me RMT proof. Do you mean other than the admission by a botter to eve24? Also the top is mainly focussed on botting, which is a major issue. *** Signature may appear without warning! *** Please do not feed the trolls, it builds dependency.
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.02.17 20:58:00 - [923] Originally by: Ger Tomard Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread. Botting sure, show me RMT proof. Maybe this: RMT Uncovered: The Interview
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2011.02.17 20:59:00 - [924] Originally by: Ger Tomard Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread. Botting sure, show me RMT proof. Except in the thread. Try reading the thread then posting.... Then check out k.ugutsumens site, theres another expose there, specifically on page 3 by a guy named rmfhorus iirc. Post 117 at the bottom is the juicy info. Then google "h-bot". The client reading bots developed after the source code leak are much better. Read their forums. Then read the Eve24.com articles ffs(of which there are many - and remember this is CCP endorsed) Or spend 5 seconds googling to buy or sell isk. Yup joe average player can sell your hard earned isk for real cash (and risk a ban - don't do it ppl) on easily accessable exchange sites. Finally this quote may be relevent to your situation: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt"
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.02.17 21:04:00 - [925] Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Originally by: Ger Tomard Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread. Botting sure, show me RMT proof. Except in the thread. Try reading the thread then posting.... Then check out k.ugutsumens site, theres another expose there, specifically on page 3 by a guy named rmfhorus iirc. Post 117 at the bottom is the juicy info. Then google "h-bot". The client reading bots developed after the source code leak are much better. Read their forums. Then read the Eve24.com articles ffs(of which there are many - and remember this is CCP endorsed) Or spend 5 seconds googling to buy or sell isk. Yup joe average player can sell your hard earned isk for real cash (and risk a ban - don't do it ppl) on easily accessable exchange sites. Finally this quote may be relevent to your situation: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt" THNX for all this links on one place...
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.02.17 21:29:00 - [926] Originally by: Othran Originally by: Opertone Can you assume that CCP employees have a feeling that EVE is dying or that perhaps they do not make enough money, so they strike a deal with ISK selling companies and not interfere in their activities. In return they get X ~ (1-20) % of the money by a private transfer. In simple words CCP staff makes money on RMT, diverting profit from their company to their personal accounts. This can be a clear, logical explanation. No. CCP as a company is maximising the revenue stream that it has NOW to the exclusion of all else. The way they are behaving its likely the revenue stream is decreasing WAY more rapidly than they thought. There are two games (one costing WAY WAY more than they got told at acquisition) hanging on the Eve revenue stream so you work it out. Employees diverting isk to their own accounts? Dream on and find another tin hat. Employees have nothing to do with it. try to understand me... some guy, a dev, a technician or a GM wants to make extra cash, so he cheats on the company and strikes a deal with RMT. He is jealous, angry or doesn't care about reparation. As if Iceland economy was slow after the crisis and certain people prefer hard cash. I assume the company itself would not sell ISK on the black market.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.02.17 21:50:00 - [927] Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Then check out k.ugutsumens site, theres another expose there, specifically on page 3 by a guy named rmfhorus iirc. Post 117 at the bottom is the juicy info. Then google "h-bot". The client reading bots developed after the source code leak are much better. Read their forums. Then read the Eve24.com articles ffs(of which there are many - and remember this is CCP endorsed) Or spend 5 seconds googling to buy or sell isk. Yup joe average player can sell your hard earned isk for real cash (and risk a ban - don't do it ppl) on easily accessable exchange sites. Finally this quote may be relevent to your situation: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt" Botting and RMT pigs must be slit cut and bleed to death! Bacon Bacon Bacon (just a troll)
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.02.17 22:00:00 - [928] Originally by: Opertone try to understand me... some guy, a dev, a technician or a GM wants to make extra cash, so he cheats on the company and strikes a deal with RMT. He is jealous, angry or doesn't care about reparation. As if Iceland economy was slow after the crisis and certain people prefer hard cash. I assume the company itself would not sell ISK on the black market. There was a thread where it was asked if CCP devs actually play eve. They chimed in in large numbers saying yes, that there are internal affairs people at CCP to insure no cheating takes place, and these internal affairs folks take their job very seriously. Apparently past events with BPO's and whatnot has made CCP do whats needed to its house clean. So I highly doubt anyone at CCP is selling isk. Now if they were only so diligent when it came to bots.....
Turzyx Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.02.18 00:17:00 - [929] Originally by: Avila Cracko Originally by: Ger Tomard Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread. Botting sure, show me RMT proof. Maybe this: RMT Uncovered: The Interview Fascinating read. Quoted for emphasis. Quote: What is the impact on eve community regarding thes bots? Do you think it really destroys the game or as some suggest, if CCP doesnt care we shouldnt too? I think that with whis new generation, eve is pretty much rotten, from the core, when ppl like me will organize not at individual level but with 5-10 ppl, will sort up alliance with infinite and untouchable income able to born in 2 month and able to field 100ms. With only 300-400 real players in PL in this sense is an expression of this, since 80% of the isk they received from russian is from bots. What i am afraid is when ppl will do this at pro level, only for the purpose to own and steamroll. Every game that will become heavy bot, or read cheat inflactioned, is indeed destinate to fall. Eve was cool becouse had limited number of exploits, impossible to cheat without bugs, now? is like a 3rd series free mmporg fps with aimbotter and wallhacker. It will lose all credibility, than clients.
VaMei Gallente	Posted - 2011.02.18 00:17:00 - [930] Edited by: VaMei on 18/02/2011 00:41:26 Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Then check out k.ugutsumens site, theres another expose there, specifically on page 3 by a guy named rmfhorus iirc. Post 117 at the bottom is the juicy info. Then google "h-bot". The client reading bots developed after the source code leak are much better. Read their forums. Then read the Eve24.com articles ffs(of which there are many - and remember this is CCP endorsed) Or spend 5 seconds googling to buy or sell isk. Yup joe average player can sell your hard earned isk for real cash (and risk a ban - don't do it ppl) on easily accessable exchange sites. Finally this quote may be relevent to your situation: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt" What I fail to understand, is how anyone that plays Eve as an MMO could read the news and still fail to understand how bots hurt the game. When empires are bought and sold for real money, what's the point of putting your hard earned gear in harm's way? I imagine that there will always be those in the tin foil hat crowd that don't believe any of this is true. To them I have to ask, is there any part to the whole story that can't be true? If it could all be true, is there any reason that no one has done it or is still doing it?

Zachstar	Posted - 2011.02.18 01:17:00 - [931] I have heard lately the GREAT idea in my opinion of tracking where the bot isk/mins go to. I agree that it will be impossible to get all the bots out and will take a big effort to remove a good chunk of em. But what is needed is fear. Fear of breaking the EULA leads to real in game consequences. A few big name bans with direct evidence (As in an investigation not some easily contested "You are playing too much") of bots contributing to their operations will do wonders to install fear. But in my opinion take it further than that. If a supercap has more than a certain percentage of bot created minerals inside of it? It gets destroyed on the spot. The loss of Titans and moms will cause extreme tears from botting idiots and WILL reduce the BIGGEST issue with botting currently atm in my opinion which is the lack of value in fleet engagements. When they cant have bots running to replace their moms and titans due to fear of the CCP effort. 12 titans lost or 4 or 25 or even 1 will be a HUGE blow not something replaced next week by bots.
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.02.18 01:37:00 - [932] Originally by: Zachstar What is needed is fear. Fear of breaking the EULA [with] real in game consequences. Law, without force, is impotent. Blaise Pascal
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.18 04:40:00 - [933] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Originally by: Zachstar What is needed is fear. Fear of breaking the EULA [with] real in game consequences. Law, without force, is impotent. Blaise Pascal You log on and no bot disturbs you in anyway then you say you are fed up????!!!! I don't get. Enlighten me, plox!
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.18 04:55:00 - [934] Originally by: Archbeholder Edited by: Archbeholder on 17/02/2011 19:08:26 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 17/02/2011 18:32:14 Funny thing about the bots, even if all the players leave except the hard core players, more bots will join and more an more plex will be bought so CCP wiull still make money lol so quitting doesnt even hurt them to above can i have your stuff? Funny thing about the bots, if all players leave there wont be anyone left to pay for plex lol edit:forgot lol ALL the players will never leave. Ther are some people that will always be here "till they switch off the servers"
Captain Mung	Posted - 2011.02.18 06:19:00 - [935] Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 16/02/2011 11:42:48 Originally by: Captain Mung Breaking EULA, or encouraging others to do so, is not allowed. Spitfire If the punishment for encouraging others to break the EULA is as unlikely and as trivial as it is for actually breaking the EULA, then why should we care? This. So only discussing botting openly is illegal huh.. CCP should just come out with 1rst party botting software so we can all enjoy the fun.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.02.18 08:29:00 - [936] the logical solution to the problem - start botting yourself, tell your friends to do it. When the problem becomes big, CCP will change the security/macro policy. The problem isn't big enough yet.
IsOcYaNaTo Caldari dutch viper squadron viperfleet	Posted - 2011.02.18 08:34:00 - [937] Ban those botters, breaking the game.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.02.18 08:43:00 - [938] wait wait, bott more actually... put this game to its knees. Make 30 000 active players who still believe in fairplay fools. Devastate the the economic balance and turn eve-o into another piece of rubbish. Let the yellow gold plague spread. Also make some cash and get some sweet tears. Prove that you have brains, push the chinese traders out of this business.
HowardStern	Posted - 2011.02.18 11:39:00 - [939] Originally by: Captain Mung Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 16/02/2011 11:42:48 Originally by: Captain Mung Breaking EULA, or encouraging others to do so, is not allowed. Spitfire If the punishment for encouraging others to break the EULA is as unlikely and as trivial as it is for actually breaking the EULA, then why should we care? This. So only discussing botting openly is illegal huh.. CCP should just come out with 1rst party botting software so we can all enjoy the fun. This. Or even better, how about an infinite wallet, that'll save everyone any effort whatsoever.
sarah mcjimmy	Posted - 2011.02.18 11:45:00 - [940] Edited by: sarah mcjimmy on 18/02/2011 12:00:24 Originally by: Opertone the logical solution to the problem - start botting yourself, tell your friends to do it. When the problem becomes big, CCP will change the security/macro policy. The problem isn't big enough yet. Pretty much this. I've come to the conclusion that until an issue is exploited LIKE HELL. CCP won't do anything about it.

Jefferson H Clay	Posted - 2011.02.18 12:53:00 - [941] Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: Opertone try to understand me... some guy, a dev, a technician or a GM wants to make extra cash, so he cheats on the company and strikes a deal with RMT. He is jealous, angry or doesn't care about reparation. As if Iceland economy was slow after the crisis and certain people prefer hard cash. I assume the company itself would not sell ISK on the black market. There was a thread where it was asked if CCP devs actually play eve. They chimed in in large numbers saying yes, that there are internal affairs people at CCP to insure no cheating takes place, and these internal affairs folks take their job very seriously. Apparently past events with BPO's and whatnot has made CCP do whats needed to its house clean. So I highly doubt anyone at CCP is selling isk. Now if they were only so diligent when it came to bots..... Problem is though and this is only my understanding. IA can only monitor accounts they know about. Now if I remember the thread each CCP employee gets 3 accounts gratis as part of working for CCP. All of which it's fair to assume IA keep an eye on. Nothing stopping someone whipping out their (or their partners) credit card and buying more. Which IA won't be keeping an eye on (especially not if it's in the partners name). So yeah, a CCP employee could be running a bot farm, but they probably aren't. Also I need to tighten my tin foil hat slightly.
Jefferson H Clay	Posted - 2011.02.18 12:58:00 - [942] Originally by: Captain Mung CCP should just come out with 1rst party botting software so we can all enjoy the fun. Their 'thin client' did catch a lot of peoples interest. Now I'm sure everyone thought: Holy cow, I can write a native OpenGL engine and link the two together... multiplatform nirvana is mine! I shall have EVE on my iPad evil laugh And nobody thought: Well, I wonder if it can mine and use less resources per client than my current bot farm? Removed hints on how to bot. - Adida
Derelicht	Posted - 2011.02.18 13:16:00 - [943] Originally by: Turzyx Originally by: Avila Cracko Originally by: Ger Tomard Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread. Botting sure, show me RMT proof. Maybe this: RMT Uncovered: The Interview Fascinating read. I encourage everyone to read this interview, all 3 parts. Fascinating, and enlightening. And disheartening.
Skareon	Posted - 2011.02.18 13:23:00 - [944] Edited by: Skareon on 18/02/2011 13:23:11 Each bot can garner a net total of 30 bill per month easily. The question is... is CCP for or against such "easy money"? They need to make a clear stance either for or against such botting. I'm cool with whatever response they give on the matter, for I am sure that whatever decision they make it is for the great good of EVE. note: personally I am strongly against botting and I strongly believe all people caught botting should have their accounts (and all associated accounts) deleted immediately.
Banjo String	Posted - 2011.02.18 14:04:00 - [945] Is there no way to fix the spelling mistake in the topic title?
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.18 16:02:00 - [946] Originally by: Skareon Edited by: Skareon on 18/02/2011 13:23:11 Each bot can garner a net total of 30 bill per month easily. The question is... is CCP for or against such "easy money"? They need to make a clear stance either for or against such botting. I'm cool with whatever response they give on the matter, for I am sure that whatever decision they make it is for the great good of EVE. note: personally I am strongly against botting and I strongly believe all people caught botting should have their accounts (and all associated accounts) deleted immediately. Removed conversation that encouraged people to purchase ISK from 3rd party sellers - Adida
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.18 16:12:00 - [947] kinda how funny how its more illegal to talk about it openly than to actually do it huh?
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.02.18 16:31:00 - [948] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira kinda how funny how its more illegal to talk about it openly than to actually do it huh? The 1st rule of Figh... oh wait.. oops.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.02.18 16:43:00 - [949] Originally by: Jefferson H Clay Problem is though and this is only my understanding. IA can only monitor accounts they know about. Now if I remember the thread each CCP employee gets 3 accounts gratis as part of working for CCP. All of which it's fair to assume IA keep an eye on. Nothing stopping someone whipping out their (or their partners) credit card and buying more. Which IA won't be keeping an eye on (especially not if it's in the partners name). So yeah, a CCP employee could be running a bot farm, but they probably aren't. Also I need to tighten my tin foil hat slightly. Well, sure, but thats "just" botting. Being employed by CCP does not make that easier. What I was saying is to actually steal from CCP, like using dev privileges to create isk form nothing and then sell it to an RMT, would be quite hard to do.
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.18 16:46:00 - [950] Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: Jefferson H Clay Problem is though and this is only my understanding. IA can only monitor accounts they know about. Now if I remember the thread each CCP employee gets 3 accounts gratis as part of working for CCP. All of which it's fair to assume IA keep an eye on. Nothing stopping someone whipping out their (or their partners) credit card and buying more. Which IA won't be keeping an eye on (especially not if it's in the partners name). So yeah, a CCP employee could be running a bot farm, but they probably aren't. Also I need to tighten my tin foil hat slightly. Well, sure, but thats "just" botting. Being employed by CCP does not make that easier. What I was saying is to actually steal from CCP, like using dev privileges to create isk form nothing and then sell it to an RMT, would be quite hard to do. How about a dev account making things that are extremely valuable then providing them to a corp to make money with them, taking a portion of that money and feeding it out as RMT? I know that the first part of that has happened in the past. ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51

Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.02.18 16:57:00 - [951] How about not touching MACROes in exchange for 20% of their revenue.
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.18 17:01:00 - [952] Originally by: Skareon They need to make a clear stance either for or against such botting. They do. Every time they delete a post about botting in another thread and point to this one as where to talk about it. ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
Skareon	Posted - 2011.02.18 18:55:00 - [953] Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: Skareon They need to make a clear stance either for or against such botting. They do. Every time they delete a post about botting in another thread and point to this one as where to talk about it. So... you're implying that they are "for it"? hehe..., darn.
Trauli	Posted - 2011.02.18 18:56:00 - [954] I am feed up of riverinis posting
sarah mcjimmy	Posted - 2011.02.18 18:58:00 - [955] How about making the Alliance responsible? Eg, negative corp wallets etc. I'm sure that would have quite the effect on allowing renters in a system.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.18 19:26:00 - [956] Originally by: sarah mcjimmy How about making the Alliance responsible? Eg, negative corp wallets etc. I'm sure that would have quite the effect on allowing renters in a system. According to the EN24 report it's not the drone renters who are the botters. It's the RENTOR alliances (XDeath, Solar, RA, etc).
sarah mcjimmy	Posted - 2011.02.18 19:32:00 - [957] Originally by: Jack Gilligan According to the EN24 report it's not the drone renters who are the botters. It's the RENTOR alliances (XDeath, Solar, RA, etc). What I mean is to extend the punishment at present (engage in RMT with dirty ISK and face negative balances) and taking it to a higher level. Whether it be the corporation or alliance directly.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.02.18 20:27:00 - [958] Edited by: Opertone on 18/02/2011 20:28:34 Edited by: Opertone on 18/02/2011 20:27:28 Edited by: Opertone on 18/02/2011 20:26:53 CCP need to change its marketing slogan... Economy controlled entirely by the players... EvE economy entirely run by bots... Competitive market, driven by players through supply and demand... Overheated, oversupplied markets, overtaken by macro farmers Every player action has an effect... Only the richest moguls with macro space holding alliances can change the balance of power, a truly authoritarian regime. Playerbase, that is fun to be a part of, become a member of a corporation, join an alliance, which in terms is friends with other alliances... Travel across systems and meet thousands of spam bots, silent 24 hour mining bots and risk averse hunter-bots, who cloak and log off. Heck, it would be simpler for them to play on SiSi for ultimate ISK bloodbath.
Yana Cova Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.18 20:51:00 - [959] I rarely ever post, in all of my 5 years playing this great game, but now I feel compelled to. It is my heartfelt wish that someone listens and takes to heart what I have to say... I spend my time trading. I buy and sell goods for a margin - look for profits between stations, constellations and regions and exploit them - this is a form of market pvp that I am sure the vocal minority will decry with taunts of 'carebear', 'cry moar', 'gtfo' or whatever. Fair dues, this is a sandbox, I traded in Elite (yes I am that old), and I am trading now in this wondrous, advanced and expanded multiplayer version as I see it - good times, good times... But... I make a tidy sum through market knowledge, patience and cunning - this is fun. However my tidy sum is entirely eclipsed by the accusations of what people make by buying a bot program and leaving 1,2,3...x running - it makes my personal, real time effort seem like a joke. So what do I care about some other folks making easy cash? Jealous much? Well the answer to that is, it cheapens my sense of achievement - what I do through effort they can do through buying a program and leaving it running - the obvious question is why bother with effort in that case? Yes I find the market fun, but if I know I am not on a level playing field, the obvious answer would be to level it - i.e. get some bots up and running and cash in like the rest. Why don't I do that? Well, that would destroy the point of playing for me - the fun is pvp (even if without lasorz) but if the bot isk/ore/mod generation is as great as many people indicate, then I am not so much in favour of player vrs robot - where is the fun in that? If you went robot vrs robot, then there really is literally no point at all. So, just my plea to add to the chorus - please CCP do something about this or at least open up to us about how much of a problem you know it to be and what you intend to do about it rather than the playerbase relying on hearsay and non-official news sites. If nothing major is planned to be done against bots (not just RMT but for personal gain too!!!) then the message will be increasingly loud and clear via the silence that is it unofficially acceptable to bot for personal gain making anything I and thousands of others do effectively pointless (after all, where is the achievement in grafting for say 100m when I could be afk for a day and make 10x that?) Hear my cry....please...
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.18 20:57:00 - [960] Originally by: Yana Cova Hear my cry....please... They are deaf. ...

IIIAsharakIII Hostile Takeover.	Posted - 2011.02.18 21:00:00 - [961] Personally I feel that folks make way too much of a big deal out of this. It hardly effects you, except for occasionally fluxuating the price of goods IN A GAME. The worst part about this is your presentation. You used V is for Vendetta to describe RMT. Ok. . . . HOW IS RMT EVEN AFFECTING YOUR REAL LIFE?!?!?!? You don't even know why those RMTs do what they do, what their motivations are. Is their mother sick with cancer from working in some **ty factory overseas where they didn't think it was worth their time to give her protective gear to shield her from the obviously cancerous materials she was working with? Or maybe its a younger guy, and he's got a little sister, and he's pulling in extra income so she doesn't have to go work in the dupont factory to begin with, or worse, become a prostitute and serve the same ungrateful sobs that spend their time ***ing and moaning about frivilous things like RMT. RMT has absolutely ZERO effect on your real life, and it has a 100% effect on theirs. I say, the RMT guys should get toegether and have their own V is for Vendetta speech, it would make more sense coming from their mouths than yours.
Yana Cova Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.18 21:09:00 - [962] Edited by: Yana Cova on 18/02/2011 21:14:08 I dare say as this issue become more public knowledge - heck even I found about it, then if nothing is done we will be left with one of two likely outcomes: 1) More and more people start to use bots until it becomes prevalent amongst the playerbase - economic upheaval ensues and game is in spiral death mode. 2) More and people get upset as they become aware that the playing field is not level and quit out of disgust. With new fancy Incarna avatars causing influx of noobs, and fancy expansions down the line, we may have situation (1) with people joining, learning that status quo and botting themselves, or just have a turnover of noobs getting a few months in then quitting in disgust - in which case EVE will need a pretty steady influx of new people... As for the post above mine saying that RMT is fine as it helps dolphins and orphans - good grief...
betty drunkenlord	Posted - 2011.02.18 21:13:00 - [963] Originally by: IIIAsharakIII Personally I feel that folks make way too much of a big deal out of this. It hardly effects you, except for occasionally fluxuating the price of goods IN A GAME. The worst part about this is your presentation. You used V is for Vendetta to describe RMT. Ok. . . . HOW IS RMT EVEN AFFECTING YOUR REAL LIFE?!?!?!? You don't even know why those RMTs do what they do, what their motivations are. Is their mother sick with cancer from working in some **ty factory overseas where they didn't think it was worth their time to give her protective gear to shield her from the obviously cancerous materials she was working with? Or maybe its a younger guy, and he's got a little sister, and he's pulling in extra income so she doesn't have to go work in the dupont factory to begin with, or worse, become a prostitute and serve the same ungrateful sobs that spend their time ***ing and moaning about frivilous things like RMT. RMT has absolutely ZERO effect on your real life, and it has a 100% effect on theirs. I say, the RMT guys should get toegether and have their own V is for Vendetta speech, it would make more sense coming from their mouths than yours. this surely is a troll [0/10]. Time to repeat it for n+1 time. 1. Plexes prices rose before ccp took action in latest patch (bots increase demand and decrease supply of plexes) 2. rmt renter alliances force out real players from many systems. rmt alliances gain unfair advantage and it leads to stupid situations of overkill when one person from alliance is multiplexing 8 supercaps / titans [-> Krutoj]. it leads to unfair advantage when alliance with relatively small active pvp player base can throw supercaps at everyone without real consequences. 3. when not dealt properly problem only grows to enormous proportions. 4. less is more in eve, due to bots and cheap minerals space is too crowded with top tier ships, supercap kill is not something big like in the past. 5. big point -> every bot while paying for subscription is decreasing directly/indirectly ccp income by many times of plex a month due to fuelling mods/isk/supercap trading for RL. expansion of botting always leads to RMT. 6. many many more bad things that i cba to write.
mechtech SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2011.02.18 21:15:00 - [964] bots should be perma-banned, and the cheating policy should be well publicized. RMT can be dealt with by a week-long ban and 0 isking the character, but once someone knowingly downloads and uses a bot they should simply not be welcome in our game ever again.
Yana Cova Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.18 21:35:00 - [965] Edited by: Yana Cova on 18/02/2011 21:41:27 To be honest we should make this as public as possible - most folks probably dont even erad the forums but would care ALOT about this topic - so we should spam this thread in local where ever we are - if the player base gets properly motivated we might see some meaningful reaction (as long as it harms no dolphins or orphans ofc) Therefore I call all readers/posters to promote this issue in local where ever they are to educate the masses - let them work out for themselves if they care or not.... Is there any chance we could get a new thread without the 1st post from Riverini which quite frankly is truly awful...
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.18 21:54:00 - [966] Edited by: Richard Aiel on 18/02/2011 22:05:58 Edited by: Richard Aiel on 18/02/2011 21:58:53 Edited by: Richard Aiel on 18/02/2011 21:57:57 Originally by: Skareon Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: Skareon They need to make a clear stance either for or against such botting. They do. Every time they delete a post about botting in another thread and point to this one as where to talk about it. So... you're implying that they are "for it"? hehe..., darn. see Jack and Jefferson's posts lol They care about ppl talking about it on THE FORUMS more than they care about it in THE GAME Originally by: IIIAsharakIII Personally I feel that folks make way too much of a big deal out of this. It hardly effects you, except for occasionally fluxuating the price of goods IN A GAME. lol you sound JUST like the ppl saying back in the day that T20 didnt affect you unless you were in 0.0 Originally by: Yana Cova Is there any chance we could get a new thread without the 1st post from Riverini which quite frankly is truly awful... No, because any thread made now id locked / deleted and pointed to this thread as where to talk about it Originally by: Yana Cova 2) More and people get upset as they become aware that the playing field is not level What level playing field has there ever been? Its a time based levelling system (skill points) with no top number. Its basically like a pyramid scheme and unless you ignore the fact that the field isnt level and youll never catch up to the older players youll quit in frustration lol ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
Yana Cova Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.18 22:34:00 - [967] To respond re: level playing field - I am talking in terms of personal effort/ability/skill rather than automated macros/bots that just play for you , therefore negating any requirement for you to PLAY THE GAME. Thats really where I am coming from N Now i have no idea what your experience of any other games are like but EVE is very innovative in terms of allowing new players to have a fighting chances against older players, they could choose a small agile ship that a big ship could not track etc, whereas think of WOW or EQ where a LVL 10 could not hope to do anything AT ALL against a lvl 30, 40, 50, 60 etc etc - EVE is very advanced in that respect, so give it it's due.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.18 22:42:00 - [968] Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 18/02/2011 22:51:03 Yer really trying to say someone with say 20 mil SP is evenly matched vs someone starting today? Cause thats just foolish. If thats the case why to corps say a specific number of SP must be gained (IE must have 18 mil SP) before you can join the corp? If theres no difference between a 18 mil toon and a brand new one There is no "due" to be given
Yana Cova Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.18 22:52:00 - [969] Lets be serious, would you expect someone starting today to be evenly matched with someone who has played for a while - this is not TEKKEN, and even if it was, would you not think someone who has played TEKKEN before would not beat someone who has not? If that mode ask Goons how they use noobies, how they make them useful in fleets in 0.0 on day 1 (Kudos for that) - plus have a think about how in a team a low sp player can be very useful in engagments against higher sp players (again Goons have kudos for that) - any other mmporg based on levelling can offer that? I don't think so to my knowledge... It sounds like you are after a game where everyone spawns, fights and dies, then spawns again, in which case I direct you to Modern Warfare - oh wait, you play and get skills there.... hrm back to counter strike for you then. Instanced level 1 shot game them reset. Anyway, back to the point - lets get a level playing field either - either we all bot and kill the game slowly, or no bots allowed and we struggle on as I imagine was intended...
Valator Uel Caldari Mercenaries of Andosia Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.02.18 22:56:00 - [970] Just jumping on the wagon to say that I too am angry that some players can make isk AFK while I have to be active to make isk.

Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.18 23:03:00 - [971] Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 18/02/2011 23:09:07 Originally by: Yana Cova It sounds like you are after a game where everyone spawns, fights and dies, then spawns again, in which case I direct you to Modern Warfare - oh wait, you play and get skills there.... hrm back to counter strike for you then. Instanced level 1 shot game them reset. Really? please point out the part where I said I wanted this. Ill wait Cause if I wanted that Id play STO
Yana Cova Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.18 23:05:00 - [972] CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A NEW THREAD WITHOUT A SH*TPOST AS THE START? PLEASE? (I know this is caps but really - the 1st post is awful and this is a serious subject)
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.18 23:13:00 - [973] Edited by: Richard Aiel on 18/02/2011 23:14:47 Unfortionately, theyre showing us exactly how serious this is to them By keeping us in this thread You could try making another thread about it and trying to appeal to the mods ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.02.18 23:18:00 - [974] Originally by: Yana Cova Edited by: Yana Cova on 18/02/2011 21:41:27 To be honest we should make this as public as possible - most folks probably dont even erad the forums but would care ALOT about this topic - so we should spam this thread in local where ever we are - if the player base gets properly motivated we might see some meaningful reaction (as long as it harms no dolphins or orphans ofc) Therefore I call all readers/posters to promote this issue in local where ever they are to educate the masses - let them work out for themselves if they care or not.... snip I agree. I'll do this next time I'm on. Also, DELAYED LOCAL will fix the botting issue for a majority of cases.... --------[Signature]-------- If at first you don't succeed... you're obviously not Chuck Norris.
Nemesis Factor Caldari Telanus' Reach	Posted - 2011.02.18 23:40:00 - [975] Originally by: Slate Shoa I agree. I'll do this next time I'm on. Also, DELAYED LOCAL will fix the botting issue for a majority of cases.... Fraid not. Bots can be configured to run away when they see something on D-scan. ==================== ~/~ Sultan of Buruni
Immivas Parata	Posted - 2011.02.19 01:03:00 - [976] I think the best way to force CCPs hand in this matter is to get a popular gaming site like Gamespot write an article on it.
Richard Christy	Posted - 2011.02.19 01:37:00 - [977] Originally by: IIIAsharakIII Personally I feel that folks make way too much of a big deal out of this. It hardly effects you, except for occasionally fluxuating the price of goods IN A GAME. The worst part about this is your presentation. You used V is for Vendetta to describe RMT. Ok. . . . HOW IS RMT EVEN AFFECTING YOUR REAL LIFE?!?!?!? You don't even know why those RMTs do what they do, what their motivations are. Is their mother sick with cancer from working in some **ty factory overseas where they didn't think it was worth their time to give her protective gear to shield her from the obviously cancerous materials she was working with? Or maybe its a younger guy, and he's got a little sister, and he's pulling in extra income so she doesn't have to go work in the dupont factory to begin with, or worse, become a prostitute and serve the same ungrateful sobs that spend their time ***ing and moaning about frivilous things like RMT. RMT has absolutely ZERO effect on your real life, and it has a 100% effect on theirs. I say, the RMT guys should get toegether and have their own V is for Vendetta speech, it would make more sense coming from their mouths than yours. Good point, it doesn't. Therefore we should allow every single exploit that was ever discovered to be used. As none affect our RL, right?
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.19 04:11:00 - [978] Heres another thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1470251&page=1
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.19 04:28:00 - [979] well, Hulkageddon is putting a hurt on bot miners lol 396 kills and climbing ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
Reaver Glitterstim Legio Geminatus	Posted - 2011.02.19 07:54:00 - [980] Seriously, they should just make players aim the mining laser at a picture of rock and minerals and make it hit the richest looking stuff. If it all has the same color range, bots won't be able to find the minerals, but human eyes will find it all too easy with a bit of practice. End result: bot miners sc**** up loads of useless rock with the occasional mineral, and human players get lots of extra minerals to balance out what the bots aren't producing any more. And the overall reduction of minerals mined (especially nocxium-rich and other lowsec ores) will draw non-bot players into lowsec. Here is an example image to demonstrate this point, as I have found in the past that people usually do not understand how this phenomenon would work: http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff238/Winternyght/Reaver%20Glitterstims%20Album/forhumaneyesonly.jpg -- "[Reaver Glitterstim] I will make your war look like a schoolyard scuffle, FATHER." -Lyra Belacquae telling what my avatar is probably thinking

knobber Jobbler Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2011.02.19 09:20:00 - [981] for those that just can't see why its a problem: alliance A doesn't use bots. they have to get isk honesty. alliance B uses bots. alliance B attacks A's sov holdings. alliance B has an endless supply of isk so can absorb any losses and field the most expensive ships and put them in harms way without fear. they can also buy accounts for cap pilots, cyno alts, neutral alts etc. alliance A, while they might be good pvp'ers will suffer attrition. alliance B eventually wins because they can out perform alliance A economically because alliance A has to replace ships though in game methods whereas alliance B can buy there way to victory through bot made isk. alliance A then gets some bots themselves and the whole problem escalates where no one can compete in sov pvp without the use of bots. since pvp, especially sov pvp is a main economic driver in eve's player driven economy it begins to severely affect all markets in quite a number of ways which are negative to the honest player.
Angel of Night	Posted - 2011.02.19 12:24:00 - [982] Edited by: Angel of Night on 19/02/2011 12:24:19 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Heres another thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1470251&page=1 Originally by: CCP Spitfire If you would like to report EULA violations, please file a petition. Thread locked. Well that thread ended fast... And apparently we are no longer allowed to talk about cheating, exploiting, macroing or botting in the forums either. God help us... or does he have to file a petition also.
Superkiller NinjaPirate	Posted - 2011.02.19 14:26:00 - [983] Edited by: Superkiller NinjaPirate on 19/02/2011 15:04:43 Edited by: Superkiller NinjaPirate on 19/02/2011 14:40:49 Originally by: Angel of Night Edited by: Angel of Night on 19/02/2011 12:24:19 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Heres another thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1470251&page=1 Originally by: CCP Spitfire If you would like to report EULA violations, please file a petition. Thread locked. Well that thread ended fast... And apparently we are no longer allowed to talk about cheating, exploiting, macroing or botting in the forums either. God help us... or does he have to file a petition also. CCP damage control is faster than the speed of light. It is funny that they ask to fill a petition ... when it is clear that all petitions against botters have no consequences. just look at here: http://www.evenews24.com/2011/02/12/the-rise-of-the-isk-printing-machines-a-case-study-on-bots/ the names of many botters are exposed ... I just added them to my contact list. Dolce Gabana Jack Freestylo Lena Kanto Mitsu Takanara Samwise thin Vinyl Chloride AdronnMari Ardalias DoriGrinn FelHariel KaginN Klem Almer Lulu Mega Masha Monstr Mirgu Krea Misha Vase4kin Taran Treg TrueWeaver Antuan Calisto Arab BamBam Aram Danu dominion940 FlameStrike1 FlameW1nd1 Kirdik Maru lies hrum niiel para SciMass Sivlak Sidilak ThunderGuy ... and many many others ... guess what ? they are still active and online 24/7 At this point it is very clear that CCP is deeply involved in the botting business with the players and their alliances. I hope this whole thing will soon or later be published on external gaming magazines or gaming websites ... maybe it's the only way CCP will do "something" about it.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.19 16:51:00 - [984] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 19/02/2011 17:57:50 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 19/02/2011 17:01:05 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 19/02/2011 16:56:27 I like how faqst this thread was killed for ranting.... if that was truely against the rules and they locked every thread this fast, the forums would be on lockdown 24/7 and hey why isnt this thread locked then? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1470518 Originally by: Superkiller NinjaPirate I hope this whole thing will soon or later be published on external gaming magazines or gaming websites ... maybe it's the only way CCP will do "something" about it. Yea, theyll form another CSM to go to Iceland and look over their shoulder and make sure they arent involved like the last CSM was supposed to do about cheating... We know how well thats gone and seriously... lol @ the CCP that said something about file a petition just lol Look how long it took for them to close the hulkageddon troll thread lol they must be busy blowing up miners
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.02.19 18:54:00 - [985] Originally by: Yana Cova Edited by: Yana Cova on 18/02/2011 21:14:08 I dare say as this issue become more public knowledge - heck even I found about it, then if nothing is done we will be left with one of two likely outcomes: 1) More and more people start to use bots until it becomes prevalent amongst the playerbase - economic upheaval ensues and game is in spiral death mode. 2) More and people get upset as they become aware that the playing field is not level and quit out of disgust. With new fancy Incarna avatars causing influx of noobs, and fancy expansions down the line, we may have situation (1) with people joining, learning that status quo and botting themselves, or just have a turnover of noobs getting a few months in then quitting in disgust - in which case EVE will need a pretty steady influx of new people... As for the post above mine saying that RMT is fine as it helps dolphins and orphans - good grief... you are telling the truth, you either need to convince devs to change the game or to have the crowds follow you and punish MACRO and macro alliances with player actions, such as hulkageddon. Hulkageddon community driven fest, in which you destroy macro fleets with smartbombs and collect killmails.
Yana Cova Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.19 19:05:00 - [986] Let's make this issue known to the masses that play the lvl 4s, mine the roids etc to work their way up and let them know that everything they do is effectively pointless unless they join the rest and start botting to make 10x more than they can ever dream of currently. Afterall, why put the effort in when you can just the pc on all day/overnight to make your riches? We will end up with: a) everyone botting - goodnight eve b) CCP finally takes a stance and does something meaningful c) no one cares much and those who do quit.. ah well.. was a nice idea, shame about the execution. Lets make this public! Let people make up their minds once they know of the problem, whether they care or not. Tell people in local! Direct them to this thread, but let them know the 1st post is a troll, the rest is meaningful!
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.19 19:10:00 - [987] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 19/02/2011 19:10:42 d) Goodbye EVE, CCP doesnt care and focuses on world of Twilight
Yana Cova Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.19 19:19:00 - [988] Heh very cynical - but not a great idea from the corporate point of view - if (d) do nothing, let Eve slowly die and focus on 'world of twilight' then CCP will become known as the company that allows macors, bots etc and WOT would just get screwed over fast anyway as people move in to cash in... - huge investment down the drain. Not a clever move for the future from the business perspective.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.19 19:31:00 - [989] Thought ofa side effect.... wonder if hulkageddon will eventuallly stop happening once they realize the only ones theyre killing are bots so they cant get any tears and arent ruining anyone's day
Yana Cova Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.19 19:36:00 - [990] Edited by: Yana Cova on 19/02/2011 19:36:53 Sadly I think most people that get ganked by hulkageddon are real people (no proof, just a theory) - the majority of bots I believe reside in 0.0 regions, with a fair few running courier missions in lo sec or mining ice in hi sec. Most hulks in Hi sec are probs just bears - whereas <tinfoil> most* hulks in 0.0 probs are not people.... *depending on region

Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.19 19:43:00 - [991] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 19/02/2011 19:46:44 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 19/02/2011 19:44:40 Originally by: Yana Cova if (d) do nothing, let Eve slowly die and focus on 'world of twilight' then CCP will become known as the company that allows macors, bots etc and WOT would just get screwed over fast anyway as people move in to cash in... - huge investment down the drain. Dont know that they would honestly. I play a lot of other MMOs and, honestly, EVE isnt widely known and if it is known, its reputation is that of Mos Eisley. The hive of scum and villany. Also, its an old game. Most likely people would chalk it up to the scum killing the game or that it died off because it was old. I really dont think the rest would come out and if it did, most MMO players would be like "bots? so what every game has em. Theyre not a big deal" not knowing it is a big deal in THIS game cause of the single shard and the way the economy works. Hell, the CEO of the company that put out Hellgate was snatched up days after that game and that company meteored into the ground, like nothing had happened lol. He works for Cryptic. Bill Roper. The man with the ** midas touch. Everything he touches turns to . I mean its not like ppl kill an MMO an noone ever plays their games anymore, **, SOE killed SWG (basically) and they got DCUO now, which doesnt look like its failed to sell copies. SADNY, most ppl are sheep in this industry and buy games for the name not the company. Look at the sales of STO when it came out vs what it is now. They had big opening sales but theres noone in the game now cause its crap. They bougth into the name of the game, not the company.
Yana Cova Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.19 19:51:00 - [992] You may be right there - I agree to people that have vaguely heard of EVE it really is with a feeling of Mos Eisley - as for me maybe I am old and jaded and this is the future, so I need to get with it... Just bot the sh*t of any game I play (on auto) since everyone else will be. I loved the idea of MMPORGS, and now maybe we have evolved to the point where they are, at least in my opinion, just freaking broken - let the kids play for a month or so with the parents credit card, then move on the next one... Maybe the next market cycle wll be hugely anti-bot as we see the current generation die....
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.20 09:05:00 - [993] Nope, cant allow CCP to win and let this thread die ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
Kuronaga The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2011.02.20 10:33:00 - [994] Got a friend who bots. He laughs, cause on the botter forums it's an ongoing joke that not a single one of them has ever gotten cracked down on.
Von Hinten	Posted - 2011.02.20 10:38:00 - [995] Originally by: Kuronaga Got a friend who bots. He laughs, cause on the botter forums it's an ongoing joke that not a single one of them has ever gotten cracked down on. And when he get cracked down he only recieves a lol 3 day ban: Quote from public*****.com forum Quote:** Banned Sad I hate to be the bearer of bad news but one of my accounts got a 3 day ban today after dt, The reason stated was eula violation - using a macro. Now it may be that someone reported this account, I dont know, what interests me about this is that i have 4 other accounts operating in the same system, but they are in a corp and this one wasnt. The other accounts have no bans, but to be safe im moving Smile. I'll take one for the team, and have this one operating after the ban to see what happens, but in another system ofcourse. Lets see if they track these accounts afterwards.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.20 10:46:00 - [996] Edited by: Othran on 20/02/2011 10:48:57 Originally by: Von Hinten Originally by: Kuronaga Got a friend who bots. He laughs, cause on the botter forums it's an ongoing joke that not a single one of them has ever gotten cracked down on. And when he get cracked down he only recieves a lol 3 day ban: That sounds like a second ban to me. 1 day = first offence; 3 day = second offence; 7 day = third offence from what I've been told. I have no reason to doubt the person who told me this as he's been botting (and probably RMT'ing) for years and freely admits it. Edit - the only way to get CCP interested in fixing this is hit them where it hurts - their corporate revenue stream. All my accounts are suspended now - same reason, "CCP condones cheating". I'm sure they don't give a sh*t anyway but I'm not paying real money for a game where the game company actively condones and benefits financially from cheating.
Ocih Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2011.02.20 11:35:00 - [997] While it would be nice to get rid of the bots, from market to mining, it isn't that easy. I don't have the answer. Every one I come up with has a point of contention that makes it more damaging than good.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.20 11:45:00 - [998] Originally by: Ocih While it would be nice to get rid of the bots, from market to mining, it isn't that easy. I don't have the answer. Every one I come up with has a point of contention that makes it more damaging than good. Well in that case CCP shouldn't have condoned cheating to the point at which their game cannot survive without it. Their problem as its entirely their fault the problem is so large I encourage everyone to go google and find out which particular alliance is now ADVERTISING rental for bots in their renter systems priced at 40mill per account per month. It'll come as no surprise to anyone who hasn't had their head up their ar*e for years (hello CCP!). I suspect the game is beyond redemption unless you're happy with CCPs attitude. I'm not hence the account suspensions
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2011.02.20 17:22:00 - [999] Originally by: Othran Well in that case CCP shouldn't have condoned cheating to the point at which their game cannot survive without it. Their problem as its entirely their fault the problem is so large I encourage everyone to go google and find out which particular alliance is now ADVERTISING rental for bots in their renter systems priced at 40mill per account per month. It'll come as no surprise to anyone who hasn't had their head up their are for years (hello CCP!). I suspect the game is beyond redemption unless you're happy with CCPs attitude. I'm not hence the account suspensions Yeah it is something when they are that blatant about it. CCP with Eve's vision of non-consensual pvp are in a unique position to do something about it tho, the playerbase would gladly shoot them if they could. High profile bans or at least some* sign of consequences for botting would go a long way. Trouble is atm they would have to pretty much ban all of 0.0 to clear the botters and their mains.
Selinate Amarr Red Water Syndicate	Posted - 2011.02.20 17:37:00 - [1000] "FED" FFS you queefing quafers.

Ger Tomard Caldari Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan	Posted - 2011.02.20 17:56:00 - [1001] CCP would fix this if even a shred of proof could be given to GM. Instead, its QQ and slander against potentially innocent players. [QUOTE]I think the next time you make one of these bad threads on this character, or any alt, you will be having a nice vacation to help work on making better threads. [/QUOTE] CCP finally acknowled
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.02.20 18:22:00 - [1002] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 20/02/2011 18:26:41 By the way, the author(?) of that greek botting software claims that it's "100% legal as long as it is used within the restrictions of EVE's EULA" ... Interesting claim. ;-) Some hilarious posts there also: Quote: Anyone else heared that Accounts have been banned. in our alliance are some bots banned. Quote: Looking for (botting software) friendly corp[...]Preferably at Angel regions (so much for Alliances with no botting policy ...) Quote: Botting Corp Available Will have available 7 systems of angel 0.0 with good true sec. 3 of the systems upgraded with Military 5 upgrades. We rent from people who know we bot so no requirements needs of you. Deadend systems with bubbles on gate available for safe ratting. [...] There are many corporations you can join to rat in, if you do own **. Look for the post by * at: *** If anyone has any doubts that botting is widespread in EVE, these forums will fix them ... How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2011.02.20 18:24:00 - [1003] Originally by: Ger Tomard CCP would fix this if even a shred of proof could be given to GM. Instead, its QQ and slander against potentially innocent players. You have been told once. Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Originally by: Ger Tomard Still no actual proof of RMT in this thread. Botting sure, show me RMT proof. Except in the thread. Try reading the thread then posting.... Then check out k.ugutsumens site, theres another expose there, specifically on page 3 by a guy named rmfhorus iirc. Post 117 at the bottom is the juicy info. Then google "h-bot". The client reading bots developed after the source code leak are much better. Read their forums. Then read the Eve24.com articles ffs(of which there are many - and remember this is CCP endorsed) Or spend 5 seconds googling to buy or sell isk. Yup joe average player can sell your hard earned isk for real cash (and risk a ban - don't do it ppl) on easily accessable exchange sites. Finally this quote may be relevent to your situation: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt"
Ger Tomard Caldari Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan	Posted - 2011.02.20 18:42:00 - [1004] I read it and I stick to my opinion that it all reads like slander and tears. Seriously CCP would've banned if the had a reliable evidence pool. [QUOTE]I think the next time you make one of these bad threads on this character, or any alt, you will be having a nice vacation to help work on making better threads. [/QUOTE] CCP finally acknowled
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2011.02.20 19:51:00 - [1005] Originally by: Ger Tomard I read it and I stick to my opinion that it all reads like slander and tears. Seriously CCP would've banned if the had a reliable evidence pool. Thats just it, CCP have banned, but for only a few days, and only a few accounts. Browse the botters own forums and read their "slander and tears". Only you won't find many tears. So do you believe there are bots, but can't be reliably identified thus banned, or that there are no/few bots and its all rumour mongering?
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2011.02.20 20:09:00 - [1006] Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Botting sure, show me RMT proof. Except in the thread. Try reading the thread then posting.... Then check out k.ugutsumens site, theres another expose there, specifically on page 3 by a guy named rmfhorus iirc. Post 117 at the bottom is the juicy info. Then google "h-bot". The client reading bots developed after the source code leak are much better. Read their forums. Then read the Eve24.com articles ffs(of which there are many - and remember this is CCP endorsed) Or spend 5 seconds googling to buy or sell isk. Yup joe average player can sell your hard earned isk for real cash (and risk a ban - don't do it ppl) on easily accessable exchange sites. Finally this quote may be relevent to your situation: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt" Now i am sure someone is getting a cut .
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.20 20:41:00 - [1007] Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 20/02/2011 10:48:57 Originally by: Von Hinten Originally by: Kuronaga Got a friend who bots. He laughs, cause on the botter forums it's an ongoing joke that not a single one of them has ever gotten cracked down on. And when he get cracked down he only recieves a lol 3 day ban: That sounds like a second ban to me. 1 day = first offence; 3 day = second offence; 7 day = third offence from what I've been told. I have no reason to doubt the person who told me this as he's been botting (and probably RMT'ing) for years and freely admits it. Edit - the only way to get CCP interested in fixing this is hit them where it hurts - their corporate revenue stream. All my accounts are suspended now - same reason, "CCP condones cheating". I'm sure they don't give a sh*t anyway but I'm not paying real money for a game where the game company actively condones and benefits financially from cheating. You leave, your three accounts are replaced by 6 bots, buys more plex, CCP doesnt care
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.20 20:44:00 - [1008] Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 20/02/2011 20:46:07 Originally by: Ger Tomard I read it and I stick to my opinion that it all reads like slander and tears. Seriously CCP would've banned if the had a reliable evidence pool. Ger Tomard: If they found one of their own devs cheating in the game you think theyd fire him? If say he gave illegally created items that arent able to be attained in game? And do you think theyd ban the people that accepted those items knowing that the guy they were getting from them made them illegally?
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.21 00:38:00 - [1009] Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 20/02/2011 20:46:07 Originally by: Ger Tomard I read it and I stick to my opinion that it all reads like slander and tears. Seriously CCP would've banned if the had a reliable evidence pool. Ger Tomard: If they found one of their own devs cheating in the game you think theyd fire him? If say he gave illegally created items that arent able to be attained in game? And do you think theyd ban the people that accepted those items knowing that the guy they were getting from them made them illegally? Hey Ger, you havent answered my question...
Perramas Caldari Pan Caldarian Ventures	Posted - 2011.02.21 02:12:00 - [1010] Originally by: Ocih While it would be nice to get rid of the bots, from market to mining, it isn't that easy. I don't have the answer. Every one I come up with has a point of contention that makes it more damaging than good. CCP doesnt not have to make EVE bot proof to get rid of botting. CCP only has to make the player base truly fear getting caught botting and the botting problem will go away. Enough with the temporary bans, they are not a deterrent. Permanently delete all characters on any account caught botting for any reason the first time and the botting problem will go away.

Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2011.02.21 02:21:00 - [1011] Originally by: Perramas CCP doesnt not have to make EVE bot proof to get rid of botting. CCP only has to make the player base truly fear getting caught botting and the botting problem will go away. Enough with the temporary bans, they are not a deterrent. Permanently delete all characters on any account caught botting for any reason the first time and the botting problem will go away. Would be nice, but CCP needs all the money they can get for their exit strategy from EVE. It seems they have decided Eve will fall in a year or two, based on their weak punishment of bots and inaction, they also timed the release of Incarna blog when most players are unable to compete with bots and thinking about quitting, as a bone thrown to the players to keep playing. Its a really bad situation for honest players, there are no alternatives to EVE so CCP is taking advantage of this to still collect revenue.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.21 03:09:00 - [1012] Originally by: Miss President Originally by: Perramas CCP doesnt not have to make EVE bot proof to get rid of botting. CCP only has to make the player base truly fear getting caught botting and the botting problem will go away. Enough with the temporary bans, they are not a deterrent. Permanently delete all characters on any account caught botting for any reason the first time and the botting problem will go away. Would be nice, but CCP needs all the money they can get for their exit strategy from EVE. It seems they have decided Eve will fall in a year or two, based on their weak punishment of bots and inaction, they also timed the release of Incarna blog when most players are unable to compete with bots and thinking about quitting, as a bone thrown to the players to keep playing. Its a really bad situation for honest players, there are no alternatives to EVE so CCP is taking advantage of this to still collect revenue. Theyve also timed it well with World of Twilight also two minute wait is fail
D3F4ULT Gallente	Posted - 2011.02.21 03:12:00 - [1013] Bumping for great Justice :) I to want a bot free Economy. I understand such a thing is nearly impossible to obtain, what could stop botting? A Capche, say if you get "Report Botter, gold seller, etc" It will send a Capche to that player, they have to enter a 6 digit/letter code to continue playing. If it fails, they get banned for a day or so while under investigation. You can only ping an account every 30 minutes that way players don't get bombarded with CAPCHE requests.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.21 06:47:00 - [1014] Originally by: Sullen Skoung Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 20/02/2011 20:46:07 Originally by: Ger Tomard I read it and I stick to my opinion that it all reads like slander and tears. Seriously CCP would've banned if the had a reliable evidence pool. Ger Tomard: If they found one of their own devs cheating in the game you think theyd fire him? If say he gave illegally created items that arent able to be attained in game? And do you think theyd ban the people that accepted those items knowing that the guy they were getting from them made them illegally? Hey Ger, you havent answered my question... Ger Tomard.... are you avoiding the question?
Siona Windweaver Placeholder Holdings	Posted - 2011.02.21 08:54:00 - [1015] Quote: about botting if someone can be interested about what alliance rat-bot more. since i have a direct experience on the field fighting those entity for place mine bots. about venal : 1) goonswarm 2) white noise, (only less in number but % compared to real number where much superior than goons, of course i am talking about period wn was in venal) 3) razor + renters 4) stella polaris 5) morsus mihi 6) rebellion. about stain : 1) xenobyte 2) aaa 3) burn eden (probably every sigle burn eden have 2-3 rattobot) about GLOBAL. ALLIANCES (bots-related to alliance numbers) 1) white noise 2) solar (mainly thrue theyr renters with alts or fake corps) 3) xdeathx (they do it mainly thrue theyr renters with alts or fake corps) 4) aaa 5) goonswarm 6) red alliance 7) stain empire 8) it 9) razor 10) atlas previously, now INIT (mainly b side of alliance) , about atlas, basicly all theyr renters. there was even atlas ppl offering system on the h-bot forum for a % of income of the botters Quote from k forums.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.21 09:45:00 - [1016] UH OH the mods are awake from their weekend long nap lol
fieken	Posted - 2011.02.21 09:47:00 - [1017] Ban those botters and punish those corporations, profitting from the taxes collected. My suggestion is to kill the complete chain of accounts profiting from them: For the botters, permaban their accounts and give them no chance to log in again (to sell their loot, to trade any belongings, to jet any faction loot in a container/hangar, ...), ever. Destroy their containers in space so nobody is ever able to recover anything from those For the alts who profit from these isk printing machines, put an invisible in local channel polaris inspector frigate in system, fitted with a covop cloak and collect the data of the person(s) who are collecting the loot and laundering the isk. Now you get the person behind these bots, sadly there is nothing worse that you can do to this person than a permaban. Don't forget to do the same as above For those corporations, nullify the isk they received in the past by these botters, it is their task to scan their members when letting them apply the corporation. They should have to fase the consequences for allowing them to join corp. Don't tell me they don't look at their corp wallet that steadily rises like hell day in and out, and find it normal that the same persons are allways ratting, ... and never respond to any CTA. For as long the corporation wallet is in red, deny anyone leaving corp until it the balance is back positive. Also, make sure any characters involved in these offences are impossible to sell or transfer to another account either or to do any plex trading, posting on forums, ... forever.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.21 09:48:00 - [1018] this is actually kinda funny given that the reason they shut down the thread never actually HAPPENS in the thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1471390
Insane Nutmunch	Posted - 2011.02.21 09:50:00 - [1019] And of course EVERYTHING on K's forums are true. There is still only anecdotal evidence on this thread that Botting = RMT for any individual player. Of course it would be nice for CCP to issue a statement verifying it's position on botting and detailing some of it's efforts (where possible) to eradicate or at least minimise the problem.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.02.21 09:51:00 - [1020] Originally by: Insane Nutmunch ... Of course it would be nice for CCP to issue a statement verifying it's position on botting and detailing some of it's efforts (where possible) to eradicate or at least minimise the problem. I think they did some months ago. Do you demand weekly statements? Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!

Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.21 09:55:00 - [1021] Originally by: Tres Farmer Originally by: Insane Nutmunch ... Of course it would be nice for CCP to issue a statement verifying it's position on botting and detailing some of it's efforts (where possible) to eradicate or at least minimise the problem. I think they did some months ago. Do you demand weekly statements? They do... this thread. "we wish to sweep this under the rug"
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.21 10:34:00 - [1022] Originally by: Ai Shun End of their game: November 2008: 250,000 subscribers December 2009: 300,000 subscribers (Over 300,000) January 2011: 340,000 subscribers Amazing what you can "prove" with statistics Current subscriber numbers are the same as they were in January 2010. They have DECREASED by around 10-15% since Summer 2010 despite the "power of two" promotion and various other "come back and get 60 days for Ç19.95" offers. As an aside if you take a look around at the influx of "power of two characters" from last promotion you'll notice a HELL OF A LOT of courier and ratting bots - low-sec heimatar (for example) is full of courier bots in bestowers, pretty much all of whom date from the last power of two promotion. CCP knows this as one group of 20+ have been petitioned 7 times now. Still there and botting though... Source is mmodata.net who get their figures from CCP.
Kuronaga The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2011.02.21 10:56:00 - [1023] I think it's clever how CCP has banned all talks of botting to a single, hilariously ugly looking thread. I must admit is a brilliant stunt from their end, I mean who will take anti-bot talk seriously when this is the only thread its represented in?
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact	Posted - 2011.02.21 11:00:00 - [1024] Also, who would want to read 35 pages of trolling, whining, and ******ation? This person will be our botting free messiah, and he will lead us to the promised region of space to live in a utopia... erh uh, never mind. By the way, real men biomass when they emoragequit.
Iceni	Posted - 2011.02.21 11:28:00 - [1025] I gave up reading this thread after the first page reduced me to despair. However as all other botting threads seem to be locked before they get started, I will dutifully sign on here and add my voice to the BAN THE BOTS cause. Titans and supercarriers should be a 'wow' in the game, not an everyday fleet necessity.
Siona Windweaver Placeholder Holdings	Posted - 2011.02.21 11:58:00 - [1026] Quote: The problem I have with 'Botting is fine/understandable as long as PvE in EVE is so boring/**' argument is that it just puts off the solution (get better PvE in EVE) until later. Sorry, but I'm not going to argue the 'immorality' of botting just as much as I'm not going to argue the 'understandable' aspect of botting. I don't care about your wounded sense of morality, nor do I care for your spurious justifications. In the end the only thing that counts is this: botting is killing EVE. It really is as simple as that. If you have to bot to, basically, participate, the game is broken. Fine. We know that. We've known that for a long long time. But right now, the, and lets be honest here, vast amount of botting, not just in the drone regions but everywhere, is killing the game. Over the last year or so, perhaps even longer, botting has become endemic. This isn't a matter of discussion whether it is 5% or 15% of the PCU botting, as each bot causes massive damage to the game, it's player driven economy, not least to EVE brand value (We're now getting messages away from EVE-O or SHC like this: "EVE? Ohh, that game is botted to hell and back! I won't play against bots!"). And I don't want to wait until CCP finally gets around to reiterating on PvE, which we all know won't be until several expansions from now. I want CCP to do something NOW. They'll never be able to remove botting entirely, I'm not delusional about that, but right now CCP isn't doing nearly enough about botting, in fact, I don't see any signs that CCP is doing anything at all (one day ban? That's plain silly!). I'll take any damage banning as many bots as possible will do to the EVE economy. Prices of minerals and T2 go sky high? Fine, that then is where they should be, as bot minerals and ice shouldn't have been in the game entirely. Toppling large alliances because they'll lose their bot income? Fine, very good in fact, they shouldn't have that Isk anyway. Mass permanent bans for bots and all accounts on that IP? Fine, I relish the thought. Mass permanent bans for everyone condoning botting or supporting it? Fine, I relish the thought. Is much as 1/3 of the PCU getting banned over botting or botting related things? Fine, I don't want those bots in my game anyway. I don't mind any of that, I don't frankly care about protestations to the opposite of the possible effect that may or may not have on EVE. Because, in the end, botting, and the proliferation of botting is already killing EVE. I don't give a rat's arse about possible effects down the road if already the game is ed. The only thing I see confirmed is that after years of this , Dr Eggnog still doesn't seem to have a clue about what is really going on in the EVE economy. But I'll gladly trade-in what little satisfaction that confirmation gives me if CCP starts permanently banning loads of bots and botting accounts, who are, let's face it, trivially easy to find, RIGHT NOW, and keep on doing so forever more. It is their job, you know! Providing a level playing field in their game, as much devoid of cheaters as possible, to the customers paying them for their service! Why do CCP's customers consistently have to tell CCP to do their **ing job already? What is it with these people? A well thought out post from Bartholomeus Crane.
Elrca Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.21 12:01:00 - [1027] There will always be bots in an MMO, they hare here to make money. They will always be here as there are always people willing to spend RL money for Virtual money. Most gamers just want to have fun without the ned to "work" in a game to be albe to do stuff. It happens everywhere. And since the game producers get the influx of money for those "bot accounts"they will do nothing to stop it, they get their cash. They only take action with the "people" demand it. But then the bots grow so much that the action is futile.. ..lernt to live with it!
bustergonads	Posted - 2011.02.21 12:03:00 - [1028] Given that CCP is only temp banning people for three days when they get caught botting it's pretty obvious they don't give a flying **** about this practice. Yet again I shouldn't really be surprised I suppose, as some of the bots we used to kill in Jita ice belts in 05/06 were in game at least three years later that I know of despite being petitioned many times.
Neamus	Posted - 2011.02.21 12:04:00 - [1029] The botting situation seems to have gotten way out of hand. Running around null sec trying to find a backwater system to do some ratting in is very difficult, they're all occupied with bots. The typical pattern is that I log in when I get back from work, only to find that my local bot has nomed the entire system and is now in idle mode waiting for the next sanctum to spawn. Occasionally the bot's Russian operator comes back to his keyboard to laugh at me, before going afk again for the rest of the week. I could try looking for a new system to rat in, but honestly so far its been the same everywhere I've looked. Its anti-social and anti-competitive, both of which are big no-no's for an MMO. A major annoyance for me is that petitioning has no discernible effect. No bans, no useful feedback, just nothing... Oh, except for over zealous moderation. Yay. I've recently come back to the game after about a year off, and initially I thought it was just bad in my local area. But now after catching up on the forums I'm starting to wish I hadn't come back at all. Titans used to be a rarity, have a real "WOW" factor, but now I'm reading about fleets of them? That if lost get replaced after just a few days? At first I thought this was just exaggeration by the usual forum trolls, but now I'm starting to wonder... Anyway the point is that they're strangling peoples enjoyment of the game, and something quickly needs to be done to stop them.
Dani Nardieu	Posted - 2011.02.21 12:12:00 - [1030] Edited by: Dani Nardieu on 21/02/2011 12:16:10 Highsec has always been chock full of macro miners ever since i've started EvE 5 years ago. There is no rise in that at all and it's not "killing the game". In fact what has been added on the mining front since then has given real industrial players more options with exploration, WH etc.. giving some place to go besides the strip mined belts. There's been a dramatic rise in ratting bots though and bounties create ISK out of thin air at a frightning rate which is a lot more damaging to the economy then minerals changing hands at low prices.

Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.21 12:19:00 - [1031] Hey Everybody. I've been posting here and there in the various posts about the bot problem in Eve over the past month and am happy to (finally) see a thread listed by the CSM. As others have already pointed out, there is a bot problem in Eve that CCP has routinely ignored and blown smoke up our butts about for years. I won't reiterate all of my thoughts on the topic as I've either already expressed them elsewhere in posts or it's not really relevant to this discussion, but on the whole each bot represents another paying customer to CCP. In fact, I firmly believe that if RMT wasn't happening, CCP would care even less about bots than they already (appear to) do. From a purely business standpoint - only RMT would give pause, and RMT is the only thing CCP is really concerned about ending. As this stance doesn't jive well with the player base - since our resources are being sucked dry by automated programs that run 23.5/7 and everywhere we look we see bots, bots and more bots - only a handful of which are likely to be involved in any serious RMT rings - I had previously suggested that it would be left up to the players of Eve to fight this battle themselves. Truly, if we're tired of bots everywhere we look then we need to begin exposing those characters, corporations and alliances - exposing their locations, bot types and activities - and slamming CCP with petition after petition after petition until they do something about it. I've filed lots of bot petitions with Eve, and months later the bots are still botting happily. CCP has repeatedly told me they are building evidence against these characters and will take action when they have enough evidence. Frankly, I consider this a load of BS, but it's their company, it's their game so ultimately it's their decision, right? The choice we have as players is one of the following: 1. Stop playing Eve (yeah, right, that's going to happen... NOT!) 2. Start using bots to level the playing field. 3. Start resolving the problem ourselves. I choose option number 3. As such, I am in the final stages of developing a web application specifically designed to assist the players of Eve in locating, reporting, hunting and killing and filing bot report petitions about these bots. The site is about 90% there and all the important features are already operational: http://www.reportbots.com/ <- home page - gives more details on what the site is meant to be http://www.reportbots.com/university/ <- an informational page that aims to help players understand how to spot bots http://www.reportbots.com/report/ <- Our bot reporting tool which allows you to file bot reports with our system and get a copy & paste text to file a bot petition with CCP. http://www.reportbots.com/evidence/ <- Our evidence area (still under development) shows characters reported within a specific time frame and number of reports (24 hours and 1 or more reports, or more than one report in 7, 14 or 30 days) and 'botspots' where bots are being reported. It will also show corporation and alliance reports in the next week. The remainder of our development is mostly bells and whistles and finishing up the user interface (our designer is busy working on our logo/navigation now). Our aim is to be fully operational with all the bells and whistles and pretty user interface by the end of the month, but the report and evidence systems are operational now and the core system has been through alpha and beta testing phases and is solid. Even some folks from CCP gave it a few whacks and I've been busily filing petitions informing the GMs that the system is forthcoming and what they can expect to see from our site. So, instead of simply complaining about the problem, I suggest we take action. Hence why I wrote reportbots.com. Comments/Suggestions welcomed
Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2011.02.21 12:26:00 - [1032] Originally by: Consortium Agent The choice we have as players is one of the following: 1. Stop playing Eve (yeah, right, that's going to happen... NOT!) 2. Start using bots to level the playing field. 3. Start resolving the problem ourselves. 4. put pressure on CCP to take action against bots or face massive negative media fallout. riverini is currently contemplating the "Pros and Cons of Putting a Botting Guide in EN24.com" on kugu - idea is to set CCP a 30 day ultimatum "to release a blog where they explain what they have been doing to drive the botting issue down" and publish extensive botting guides on EN24 if the ultimatum is not met (to "level the field" and put further pressure on CCP).
Jelek Coro Erase Rewind	Posted - 2011.02.21 12:28:00 - [1033] CCP are not serious about stopping bots. If they were - then certain regions would be emptied overnight. HM-UVD in Stain almost always tops the list for botters. Nothing done. Pick almost any drone region system with high NPC kills - botters. Nothing done. CCP will destroy their own game if they continue to sit on their backsides doing SFA. Failure to act will just mean more people will use them.
Kuronaga The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2011.02.21 12:31:00 - [1034] Edited by: Kuronaga on 21/02/2011 12:34:58 It doesn't matter how much evidence you collect. They arn't going to ban the bots, I've tried already and even if you kill the bots, they are ravens. It's not even a drop in the bucket for them to replace. IMO the only way to really get CCP's attention is to either A. Convince an outlet to make it a serious news story on a website that generally promotes positive reviews of eve (ie tentonhammer) B. Mass protest and crash Jita every single day until they do something -- they love dealing with that. C. Mass protest and boycott. Dead serious. I mean it sucks, but honest players still make up more of a population then botters do. They can't afford to lose em. Edit: yes you are right about HM-UVD. The russian botting scumsuckers have been living here for years and I've been living next door to them. Some of them actually mission run honestly, but they are still have plenty of botter alts all up and down that constellation. One guy named DeathKill actually runs missions with like five alts in tengus at the same time, while he has three more alts just botting the belts down the pipe.
Raid'En	Posted - 2011.02.21 12:37:00 - [1035] so i see this thread on front page. see now it's 35 pages, i say "wow" and then go check on eve-search about new CCP answers here ince last time. huh ? nothing ? okay no answer since 2 months, i see... ---------------- Wormhole Trading
gfldex	Posted - 2011.02.21 12:44:00 - [1036] Originally by: Neamus I've recently come back to the game after about a year off, and initially I thought it was just bad in my local area. CCP kindly changed sov mechanics from the logistic burden to move all the fuel to a ISK burden to pay for the bills. The idea was to make all those afk alliances go and farm for the privilege to hold space. Or to rent out individual systems (hence the updates) to smallish (or ***ty) corps that didn't have much options to go to 0.0 with the moon goo mechanics. Sadly CCP forgot that this can not work if they don't go after bots as hard as they can. They didn't and as a result those afk alliances are still afk while their bots make the ISK to maintain space. And while they are on it anyways, they can make the ISK to pay for all those super caps that are needed to keep the space to bot in. On top of that you don't even have to run those bots yourself, you can out source that job to some RMTs. Anybody gets a share, isn't that nice? A nicely upgraded system with a few bots in it is worth 3 to 5 times as much as r64 moons used to. It's even better then the moon goo exploit because the CEO can look the other way and still see his corps wallet go up quite nicely. Now CCP is in the situation that they can't go and kick all those bots and remove the ISK that was cheated into corp wallets because they have to expect that halve of all sov is lost and loads of ppl with multiple accounts (not counting bots) will quit the game because they can't maintain their play style. CCP, as always, didn't act in time and now they have no idea how to deal with that clusterbeep* they created. It's not like there where no warning voices, but if you don't read your very own forum anymore and expect to get problems spoon fed by some elected officials once every 3 months you may learn about problems a little late. But don't worry. They will optimise their customer communication (have the elected officials elect an official maybe?) and will not step forward to admit they beeped up. Because that might actually lead to somebody comming up with an idea how to solve that problem.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.21 12:49:00 - [1037] Originally by: sarah mcjimmy Originally by: Jack Gilligan According to the EN24 report it's not the drone renters who are the botters. It's the RENTOR alliances (XDeath, Solar, RA, etc). What I mean is to extend the punishment at present (engage in RMT with dirty ISK and face negative balances) and taking it to a higher level. Whether it be the corporation or alliance directly. I completely agree. And, btw, it's funny how CCP sends people into this thread to delete stuff they don't like (such as noting the disparity in the cost of buying isk, go look it up) but NOT ONE FREAKING DEV will respond to anything in this thread. I'm beginning to believe the only way we'll get CCP's ass on this problem is to unsubscribe in mass numbers.
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.21 13:51:00 - [1038] CCP isn't very upset about people having 10 alt accounts to bot. So this is up to the players. I suggest you get to know your enemy and wipe him out? There's lots of info around lately. Search for "A Botter's Survival Guide" in Google and read the first result aswell.
Illwill Bill Reign of Anarchy	Posted - 2011.02.21 13:57:00 - [1039] Edited by: Illwill Bill on 21/02/2011 13:57:11 Originally by: Spacebat [Crucifier, Unprobable] Warp Core Stabilizer I Warp Core Stabilizer I Nanofiber Internal Structure I Incremental Radar ECCM Scanning Array I Incremental Radar ECCM Scanning Array I 1MN Afterburner I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Let's AFK them to death. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
gfldex	Posted - 2011.02.21 14:14:00 - [1040] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Search for "A Botter's Survival Guide" in Google and read the first result aswell. I like this part the most: Quote: Mercs: If you're botting, chances are you've got ISK. Merc corps can be hired to assassinate, or even grief specific players. Also, you can hire mercs to simply war dec the corp of the people giving you grief. Mercs can be found advertising themselves in the Crime & Punishment section of the official forums. Esp. if you take the justification part into account: Quote: Check out blueprints for ships sometime, see how many minerals are needed to build things like BS's and caps. We're part of the system that keeps those prices reasonable. Brilliant!

Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.21 14:29:00 - [1041] Bit of a problem is that all player action will not be perfectly successful. In fact, any player action might be one sided, giving temporary advantages to those whose bots yet operate. I wonder what CCPs resident economist has to say to all this. If he yet lives. Only CCP can truly put the nail into their coffins. Also, the argument of eliminating botting screwing up the economy is utterly misguided. Yes, prices will rise, but they will rise on both ends. The real players income might increase, just as costs increase. Of course the age of spamming supercapitals ala 'lol I didn't want it anyways' might end... and the game might make sense again. But I'm just some generic and not very knowledgeable alt.
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2011.02.21 14:44:00 - [1042] I remember when isk farmers in one of the 0.0 region I lived in were actually people, and if you attacked one, couple more ravens would come to rescue from near by systems. Back at those times, supercaps were extremely rare, losing a carrier or a dread was a big deal. I don't know at what point in time those same isk farmers started using bots, but there was a diffidently time in EVE when caps were being produced at unrealistic pace. There could be many reasons, but I wonder to what percentage of those outrageous # of supercaps produced were funded by botting? I'm only guessing "a lot". Also, it seems that at battle reports regular caps are not counted, only super caps which seems to be replaced pretty fast. Well, if I lose a cap and any other normal player they will have to sweat and work like a horse to replace it. someone who knows lets put a guess Percentage of capitals produced by the following: 1. Moon income 2. Rent income 3. Players hard work 4. Bots
Ocih Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2011.02.21 14:55:00 - [1043] Originally by: Iceni I gave up reading this thread after the first page reduced me to despair. However as all other botting threads seem to be locked before they get started, I will dutifully sign on here and add my voice to the BAN THE BOTS cause. Titans and supercarriers should be a 'wow' in the game, not an everyday fleet necessity. And I gave up playing EvE when the unhealthy dedication required to compete made logging in feel like a hangover. There is no way to know how much of it stems from people bot mining and marketing but it's a good assumption, alot. Because I am seasonal at work where I have months that I can dedicate alot of time to EvE and I still fail to make any great progress. Even with my several hundred million SP my wallet dictates my worth in this game and that is a direct result of ISK farming in EvE that force all of us to become ISK farmers or buyers. I still don't have any solution for CCP though. If I do find one I think will help, I will post it. If they have any desire to solve the problem they might use it. If they don't care, I can't do anything about it and Love EvE or hate it, that's the simple truth of it for me.
fythos	Posted - 2011.02.21 15:24:00 - [1044] Quote: 1) delayed local 2) npc gives aggro timer same as players (if someone will log off while being aggroed by npcs - his ship will warp out to spot and will be there for 15 minutes) 3) standard cloaking device (not cov-ops cloak) must consume capacitor, so BS full of cap-mods will be out of cap in 15 or so minutes and then decloak Sooo many problems in Eve could be solved by this one little change. Go on CCP, you know you want too... you know it makes sense. Hell, even if its just in 0.0 where the big boys play. You could even link it to SOV and have structures that decrease the local delay for members of the alliance that holds sov.
Alexi Komanov	Posted - 2011.02.21 15:29:00 - [1045] I wish CCP would just tighten their collective belts and remove all the bots. Yes I know it's not that easy, yes I know the bots will be back but at least it would give us a breather. Unfortunately, thats not going to happen, CCP just loves money too much and if they remove all the bots thats at least half of their subscriptions down the drain, leaving us back at pre-trinity levels of subscribers. EVE is going to be choked out by bots, as playing the game becomes dependent on using a bot. That is when EVE will die, sure there will still be people playing but they will be 80% bots and CCP will still be making money so they just wont give a damn. EVE will be dead for the rest of us, to bad CCP won't care.
gfldex	Posted - 2011.02.21 15:37:00 - [1046] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa I wonder what CCPs resident economist has to say to all this. If he yet lives. QEN-2010/3 page 17/18: Quote: bounty payout increased by over 16% compared to Q2
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.02.21 16:08:00 - [1047] A DARK HARSH UNIVERSE? I want to bathe in rivers of tears, Failscading alliances ring music in my ears. Turmoil and war are the engines that drive, Macroed systems are no place for a human to survive. When neither sov nor the markets are player driven, Frustration among capsuleers should be a given. CCP you are playing a game of attrition, Player vs bot will not bring anyone's dreams to fruition. The death of a titan should be accompanied by cries from a thousand null bears, Not the shrug of a botter who just doesn't care. War should be economic and harsh, By comparison bot wars are no more than farce. Some say that getting rid of botters will hurt your bottom line, I say it is honest players who truly give you dollar and dime. That bots drive plex for short term gain is something I know, As Icelanders you should understand what happens when short term economics run the show.
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.21 16:41:00 - [1048] Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 21/02/2011 16:43:04 Originally by: gfldex QEN-2010/3 page 17/18: Quote: bounty payout increased by over 16% compared to Q2 Thank you for remining me of that. "In only a year the bounty payout increased by 64%, pushing the money supply further up." That's kinda suspicious. "Tritanium and Pyerite prices continued to fall in Q3, but Mexallon and Isogen prices rose somewhat, probably due to reduced supply." Mining Veldspar much? Maybe it's Chribba's fault? ;) Not that much in it hinting at botters, tho. The ship numbers make me think there's no more than 5000 botting accounts... probably less. Wouldn't make that big an impact on subscription numbers. The forum of a prominent ratting bot has 4444 registered members. The bots could still conceivably inject more than 2.500 Billion ISK per day into the economy... looks like a fair share of that would go into RMT.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.21 19:08:00 - [1049] Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 21/02/2011 19:11:03 Originally by: Othran Originally by: Ai Shun End of their game: November 2008: 250,000 subscribers December 2009: 300,000 subscribers (Over 300,000) January 2011: 340,000 subscribers Amazing what you can "prove" with statistics Current subscriber numbers are the same as they were in January 2010. They have DECREASED by around 10-15% since Summer 2010 despite the "power of two" promotion and various other "come back and get 60 days for Ç19.95" offers. As an aside if you take a look around at the influx of "power of two characters" from last promotion you'll notice a HELL OF A LOT of courier and ratting bots - low-sec heimatar (for example) is full of courier bots in bestowers, pretty much all of whom date from the last power of two promotion. CCP knows this as one group of 20+ have been petitioned 7 times now. Still there and botting though... Source is mmodata.net who get their figures from CCP. Its lowsec? KILL THEM lol Edit: If youve spent any time in this game, you should know this is pretty much CCP's reaction to any real issue. Censorship.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.21 19:42:00 - [1050] Originally by: Consortium Agent So, instead of simply complaining about the problem, I suggest we take action. Hence why I wrote reportbots.com. Wouldnt it be ironic as hell if you got banned for interrupting gameplay or something stupid like that?

Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2011.02.21 20:12:00 - [1051] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 21/02/2011 20:15:24 Originally by: Sullen Skoung Originally by: Florestan Bronstein 4. put pressure on CCP to take action against bots or face massive negative media fallout. Funny thing about that, as has already been said, Bots are in EVERY MMO. Most MMOs however dont have the player run economy (hah) that we do so bots arent an issue, and so noone cares about them. So unless youre already in this game, and know the issue is a problem, then reading about how EVE is bot riddled isnt gonna matter. lol, that's pretty much exactly what I wrote in the kugu thread. Originally by: Sullen Skoung On the other hand, also, as previously stated, making the issue more well known will drive people that would be interested in the game away. "Yes, but that will put pressure on CCP" Yes, but that will damage EVE in the process. Google the term "Pyrrhic victory" What makes you assume that I have no general education and have to google that term? (the grammar school I did attend had a focus on classical languages) The victory wouldn't be in causing damage to CCP, the victory would consist of the prospect of damage to CCP forcing them into action to prevent said damage. If they fail to do this and it becomes necessary to turn the mere threat of damage into actual damage, then both sides have failed to achieve their respective objectives. That would be a bad outcome but it has to be accepted as a possible outcome for the threat to be credible. If you aren't ready to ruin the game, there is no incentive for CCP to fix it.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.21 20:16:00 - [1052] Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 21/02/2011 20:17:42 Originally by: Florestan Bronstein What makes you assume that I have no general education and have to google that term? (the grammar school I did attend had a focus on classical languages) It wasnt directed at anyone it was a general statement, calm down Quote: That would be a bad outcome but it has to be accepted as a possible outcome for the threat to be credible. If you aren't ready to ruin the game, there is no incentive for CCP to fix it. Right, see, Im not THAT bothered by the issue that Im willing to leverage a game existing at all vs them wanting to fix it. They might just give it up as a lost cause (as most ppl here have noted that there might BE no fix) and focus on world of twilight.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.21 20:53:00 - [1053] Edited by: Othran on 21/02/2011 20:55:33 Edited by: Othran on 21/02/2011 20:53:49 Originally by: Sullen Skoung Its lowsec? KILL THEM lol Go right ahead. Bot undocks, bot loses ship, bot autopilots off in pod. 10 minutes later when bot APs back in pod : Bot undocks, bot loses ship, bot autopilots off in pod. 10 minutes later when bot APs back in pod : Bot undocks, bot loses ship, bot autopilots off in pod. Rinse/repeat until bored senseless and sec status trashed for a bunch of cheap T1 haulers with nothing in them but mission hauling items. Don't try taking the **** about things which you have no idea about mmm? It only makes you look foolish. Edit - and if anyone wants to be dumb enough to pod them go right ahead. Won't make any difference to the courier bot.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.21 20:57:00 - [1054] Originally by: Othran Don't try taking the **** about things which you have no idea about mmm? It only makes you look foolish. Dont remember trying to... I madea suggestion not claiming to be the god of all pvp. learn to read before you speak. "It only makes you look foolish"
FeralShadow RipStar Mining Industries United Front Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.21 21:04:00 - [1055] Originally by: Siona Windweaver Quote: The problem I have with 'Botting is fine/understandable as long as PvE in EVE is so boring/**' argument is that it just puts off the solution (get better PvE in EVE) until later. Sorry, but I'm not going to argue the 'immorality' of botting just as much as I'm not going to argue the 'understandable' aspect of botting. I don't care about your wounded sense of morality, nor do I care for your spurious justifications. In the end the only thing that counts is this: botting is killing EVE. It really is as simple as that. If you have to bot to, basically, participate, the game is broken. Fine. We know that. We've known that for a long long time. But right now, the, and lets be honest here, vast amount of botting, not just in the drone regions but everywhere, is killing the game. Over the last year or so, perhaps even longer, botting has become endemic. This isn't a matter of discussion whether it is 5% or 15% of the PCU botting, as each bot causes massive damage to the game, it's player driven economy, not least to EVE brand value (We're now getting messages away from EVE-O or SHC like this: "EVE? Ohh, that game is botted to hell and back! I won't play against bots!"). And I don't want to wait until CCP finally gets around to reiterating on PvE, which we all know won't be until several expansions from now. I want CCP to do something NOW. They'll never be able to remove botting entirely, I'm not delusional about that, but right now CCP isn't doing nearly enough about botting, in fact, I don't see any signs that CCP is doing anything at all (one day ban? That's plain silly!). I'll take any damage banning as many bots as possible will do to the EVE economy. Prices of minerals and T2 go sky high? Fine, that then is where they should be, as bot minerals and ice shouldn't have been in the game entirely. Toppling large alliances because they'll lose their bot income? Fine, very good in fact, they shouldn't have that Isk anyway. Mass permanent bans for bots and all accounts on that IP? Fine, I relish the thought. Mass permanent bans for everyone condoning botting or supporting it? Fine, I relish the thought. Is much as 1/3 of the PCU getting banned over botting or botting related things? Fine, I don't want those bots in my game anyway. I don't mind any of that, I don't frankly care about protestations to the opposite of the possible effect that may or may not have on EVE. Because, in the end, botting, and the proliferation of botting is already killing EVE. I don't give a rat's arse about possible effects down the road if already the game is ed. The only thing I see confirmed is that after years of this , Dr Eggnog still doesn't seem to have a clue about what is really going on in the EVE economy. But I'll gladly trade-in what little satisfaction that confirmation gives me if CCP starts permanently banning loads of bots and botting accounts, who are, let's face it, trivially easy to find, RIGHT NOW, and keep on doing so forever more. It is their job, you know! Providing a level playing field in their game, as much devoid of cheaters as possible, to the customers paying them for their service! Why do CCP's customers consistently have to tell CCP to do their **ing job already? What is it with these people? A well thought out post from Bartholomeus Crane. Hell yes. QFT. _______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.02.21 21:05:00 - [1056] Some sort of response from CCP (I mean a credible one; not the platitudes given so far) would be great. It would also be nice to see one of their response that isn't in the form of yellow deletion notice. All hail the mighty censor! Hire some fracking PR folks for Christ's sake. You guys are letting the conversation spiral into conspiracy-theory by not dealing with it directly. Unless you really do have some good legal reasons for not wanting to be on the record regarding botting......
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.21 21:08:00 - [1057] Originally by: Alexi Komanov I wish CCP would just tighten their collective belts and remove all the bots. Yes I know it's not that easy, yes I know the bots will be back but at least it would give us a breather. Unfortunately, thats not going to happen, CCP just loves money too much and if they remove all the bots thats at least half of their subscriptions down the drain, leaving us back at pre-trinity levels of subscribers. EVE is going to be choked out by bots, as playing the game becomes dependent on using a bot. That is when EVE will die, sure there will still be people playing but they will be 80% bots and CCP will still be making money so they just wont give a damn. EVE will be dead for the rest of us, to bad CCP won't care. CCP could do one thing that wouldn't involve even having to investigate reports of botters to cut their numbers drastically. End the PLEX system. Get rid of it. Replace it with an actual RMT store to buy, yes, game time, and yes, ISK, along with Incarna "dress up barbie" items they clearly plan to introduce. Take the PLEX item out of the game COMPLETELY, awarding equivalent store points to everyone holding them at the time of removal. The bot problem exploded with the introduction of PLEX, which means the botters don't even have to leave the game to use their ill gotten ISK to fuel their operation. The PLEX item buyable from the in game market makes sustaining and growing a bot operation FAR too easy. Not to mention, purchasing PLEX for ISK is a ripoff. Set the cost of ISK at such a level that it floats with the economy (ie, your $35 nets you a variable level of ISK, indexed to the in game economy).
Grey Stormshadow	Posted - 2011.02.21 22:04:00 - [1058] Reading this thread and seeing my favorite game going down to drain really makes me sad. It seems that all important opinnions, reasons and statements have been said on the posts above already and there is nothing much we can add. It would be good time to start hearing some response and real actions from CCP. With real actions I mean something what will permanently remove most of the bots from this game - with and without of RMT connections. To put lil more weight to this statement I am going to cancel the subscription of all my alt accounts in end of march 2011 if no real community approved actions towards the goals have been started. I challenge other players in the community to do the same thing and leave only their mains up until this really ****** up situation will be properly fixed. And finally a small note to CCP management: You really could make good PR with real anti bot campain if you just choose to play your cards well and are ready to fully commit into it.
Famble Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.02.21 22:09:00 - [1059] After reading some of this thread I decided to Google "eve bots". The results were quick and the first link landed me on a very professional site with a well described botting program. Reading it's features was extremely impressive and I won't lie... tempting. Anyway, I couldn't ever bring myself to do it for a lot of reasons but what I found most surprising was how quickly I just went from being breifly tempted to simply not wanting to play anymore. I may not be very active in the community and certainly not in the know about current events but in 90 seconds of independent research I am now patently convinced that botting is definitely NOT a good thing for Eve! I truly hope I'm around when they fix this problem :(
Hoya en Marland	Posted - 2011.02.21 22:39:00 - [1060] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Reading this thread and seeing my favorite game going down to drain really makes me sad. Same here dude... all this is very disheartening to witness. Perhaps it's not too late for CCP to finally awake and think about some serious and urgent actions before bad publicity starts breaking through. If people begin to recognize EVE as game ruled by bots, macros and RMT-based alliances then it's pretty much over. Honestly, I doubt that CCP has courage for cleaning up this mess.

Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.21 22:44:00 - [1061] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 21/02/2011 22:45:38 Originally by: Paul Mustaka Hekard Some sort of response from CCP (I mean a credible one; not the platitudes given so far) would be great. It would also be nice to see one of their response that isn't in the form of yellow deletion notice. That IS the response. Theyre trying to tell you they dont care. Especially after world of twilight comes out, they will continue to care less and less about this game Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 21/02/2011 21:09:09 Originally by: Alexi Komanov I wish CCP would just tighten their collective belts and remove all the bots. Yes I know it's not that easy, yes I know the bots will be back but at least it would give us a breather. Unfortunately, thats not going to happen, CCP just loves money too much and if they remove all the bots thats at least half of their subscriptions down the drain, leaving us back at pre-trinity levels of subscribers. Sadly you do that and youll lose a huge chunk of your sub base as they go running, screaming "Korean MT farm" Like I did from STO
Jimmy Jazz Warp Asylum Ltd	Posted - 2011.02.21 22:50:00 - [1062] Originally by: Hoya en Marland If people begin to recognize EVE as game ruled by bots, macros and RMT-based alliances then it's pretty much over. Honestly, I doubt that CCP has courage for cleaning up this mess. Thing is they (people who don't play the game) are already recognising this. I've got a number of friends, avid gamers and sci-fi fans, who won't touch EVE and one of the primary reasons is the reputation for bots being condoned. They didn't get this from me, but from reading about the game on independent sites. CCP may well be making a rod for their own back with this, because none of those guys are going to touch any other CCP products (DUST, WOD) and I'd guess a fair few EVE players are now questioning whether they will.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.21 23:00:00 - [1063] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 21/02/2011 23:03:12 Originally by: Jimmy Jazz Originally by: Hoya en Marland If people begin to recognize EVE as game ruled by bots, macros and RMT-based alliances then it's pretty much over. Honestly, I doubt that CCP has courage for cleaning up this mess. Thing is they (people who don't play the game) are already recognising this. I've got a number of friends, avid gamers and sci-fi fans, who won't touch EVE and one of the primary reasons is the reputation for bots being condoned. They didn't get this from me, but from reading about the game on independent sites. CCP may well be making a rod for their own back with this, because none of those guys are going to touch any other CCP products (DUST, WOD) and I'd guess a fair few EVE players are now questioning whether they will. hold on ill get the post I put up earlier on this thought... Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Dont know that they would honestly. I play a lot of other MMOs and, honestly, EVE isnt widely known and if it is known, its reputation is that of Mos Eisley. The hive of scum and villany. Also, its an old game. Most likely people would chalk it up to the scum killing the game or that it died off because it was old. I really dont think the rest would come out and if it did, most MMO players would be like "bots? so what every game has em. Theyre not a big deal" not knowing it is a big deal in THIS game cause of the single shard and the way the economy works. Hell, the CEO of the company that put out Hellgate was snatched up days after that game and that company meteored into the ground, like nothing had happened lol. He works for Cryptic. Bill Roper. The man with the ** midas touch. Everything he touches turns to . I mean its not like ppl kill an MMO an noone ever plays their games anymore, **, SOE killed SWG (basically) and they got DCUO now, which doesnt look like its failed to sell copies. SADLY, most ppl are sheep in this industry and buy games for the name not the company. Look at the sales of STO when it came out vs what it is now. They had big opening sales but theres noone in the game now cause its crap. They bought into the name of the game, not the company. FFS, with what they did to SWG, and SOE makes another game an ppl still buy it. ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.02.21 23:34:00 - [1064] It's interesting to note that botting really took off when CCP introduced PLEX - paying game money for monthly subscription. Before that, a person with 20 bots would have to spend $300 a month and risk losing real money when there are bans or disruptions in bot operations. Now ANYONE with enough hardware can run 20 bots with $0 subscription costs. The bots pay for themselves. It is precisely this mechanic that caused botting to grow geometrically, restrained only by the hardware limits to run multiple accounts. And they have absolutely no risk of losing money when getting banned. Banning doesn't stop them at all. Every time you sell a PLEX in game, you are sponsoring botting.
Gimpslayer	Posted - 2011.02.21 23:45:00 - [1065] Do the Right Thing. So easy to say. So hard to do. Too bad for us gamers that CCP is a spineless jellyfish. Clearly, they have known about this. Clearly, no position yay/nay is adopted by them. Erego, SPINELESS JELLYFISH THEY BE. I'm gonna vote with my pocketbook, because $ is the only thing these SPINELESS JELLYFISH understand. Botters suck privacy parts, both in game and out.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.21 23:49:00 - [1066] Originally by: Ephemeron It's interesting to note that botting really took off when CCP introduced PLEX - paying game money for monthly subscription. Before that, a person with 20 bots would have to spend $300 a month and risk losing real money when there are bans or disruptions in bot operations. Now ANYONE with enough hardware can run 20 bots with $0 subscription costs. The bots pay for themselves. It is precisely this mechanic that caused botting to grow geometrically, restrained only by the hardware limits to run multiple accounts. And they have absolutely no risk of losing money when getting banned. Banning doesn't stop them at all. Every time you sell a PLEX in game, you are sponsoring botting. When did they introduce plex? I started playing in 2006-7 and you could buy GTCs with Isk then but the botting issue was nowhere near as bad as it is now... ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.22 00:13:00 - [1067] Originally by: Famble After reading some of this thread I decided to Google "eve bots". The results were quick and the first link landed me on a very professional site with a well described botting program. Reading it's features was extremely impressive and I won't lie... tempting. Anyway, I couldn't ever bring myself to do it for a lot of reasons but what I found most surprising was how quickly I just went from being breifly tempted to simply not wanting to play anymore. I may not be very active in the community and certainly not in the know about current events but in 90 seconds of independent research I am now patently convinced that botting is definitely NOT a good thing for Eve! I truly hope I'm around when they fix this problem :( Disgusting isn't it? There are seemingly as many sites selling bots as there are ISK. And a 10 minute search on the subject shows you that bots exist that can run multiple clients on a single PC, can mine, rat, move loot to POSs or stations, that can properly chain belts, you name it, there is a bot that will automate it. What I don't understand is that no action is taken against them. To work like they do they HAVE to sniff the client. Blizzard successfully sued WoWGlider, the most popular WoW bot into oblivion. Or is it that CCP is willing to tolerate bots because the demand for PLEXs stimulates supply? As I've said, the worst thing you can do as a player right now if you oppose bots is to buy PLEX. You are victimizing yourself twice, first your PLEX is getting you botted ISK, and the stuff you buy with that ISK is inflated in price because of the supply of ISK dumped on the market by the bots.
Kuronaga The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2011.02.22 00:21:00 - [1068] Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 21/02/2011 20:11:34 Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 21/02/2011 19:48:38 Originally by: Consortium Agent So, instead of simply complaining about the problem, I suggest we take action. Hence why I wrote reportbots.com. Wouldnt it be ironic as hell if you got banned for interrupting gameplay or something stupid like that? Originally by: Florestan Bronstein 4. put pressure on CCP to take action against bots or face massive negative media fallout. Funny thing about that, as has already been said, Bots are in EVERY MMO. Most MMOs however dont have the player run economy (hah) that we do so bots arent an issue, and so noone cares about them. So unless youre already in this game, and know the issue is a problem, then reading about how EVE is bot riddled isnt gonna matter. On the other hand, also, as previously stated, making the issue more well known will drive people that would be interested in the game away. "Yes, but that will put pressure on CCP" Yes, but that will damage EVE in the process. Google the term "Pyrrhic victory" Better yet; here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Pyrrhic victory Quote: ûnoun a victory or goal achieved at too great a cost. Originally by: Alexi Komanov Unfortunately, thats not going to happen, CCP just loves money too much God forbid they act like a corporation Game developers are supposed to be artists first, business second. If you put the art as a second tier priority, you are a failure as a human. At one point CCP understood this, which is how they got my loyalty. These days, though...
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.22 00:25:00 - [1069] What MMO company prioritizes Art > money? Blizzard? Wait no... ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Kuronaga The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2011.02.22 00:37:00 - [1070] No one anymore, it seems.

Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.22 01:24:00 - [1071] Originally by: Kuronaga Edited by: Kuronaga on 22/02/2011 00:54:15 No one anymore, it seems. Not trying to be a **** but given the only example I put forth was Blizzard and you said "not anymore" I have to ask "When DID Blizzard value art over money?" Maybe their first ever game or something but even then, Im betting you there was a price tag attached to it ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Kireiina	Posted - 2011.02.22 01:47:00 - [1072] Edited by: Kireiina on 22/02/2011 01:48:41 Botting is destroying any value in actually playing this game, and CCP are noticeable only in their lack of any effort or concern about the problem. Given they have access to better information I'd say they realize the majority of their much loved player count are alts or bots and they don't want to rock the boat before they can finish using Eve revenue to fund WoD and Dust development. Not to mention doing anything on Eve, like discouraging botting, would take developers away from the titles with a future.
Kuronaga The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2011.02.22 02:13:00 - [1073] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Originally by: Kuronaga Edited by: Kuronaga on 22/02/2011 00:54:15 No one anymore, it seems. Not trying to be a **** but given the only example I put forth was Blizzard and you said "not anymore" I have to ask "When DID Blizzard value art over money?" Maybe their first ever game or something but even then, Im betting you there was a price tag attached to it I didnt say not anymore, I said no one anymore. Blizzard has never shown me any sterling example of artistic brilliance so I never opted to argue for their sake. Early CCP did, and despite them making stupid decisions along the way they did and still do actually listen to their players far more then other MMORPG companies do. For a long time it seemed like CCP didn't even give a damn about subscriber rate. It feels like a lot of that has changed lately.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.22 02:30:00 - [1074] Originally by: Kuronaga Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Originally by: Kuronaga Edited by: Kuronaga on 22/02/2011 00:54:15 No one anymore, it seems. Not trying to be a ** but given the only example I put forth was Blizzard and you said "not anymore" I have to ask "When DID Blizzard value art over money?" Maybe their first ever game or something but even then, Im betting you there was a price tag attached to it I didnt say not anymore, I said no one anymore. Blizzard has never shown me any sterling example of artistic brilliance so I never opted to argue for their sake. yah I misread that. Sorry, I have a migrane Quote:** Early CCP did, and despite them making stupid decisions along the way they did and still do actually listen to their players far more then other MMORPG companies do. For a long time it seemed like CCP didn't even give a damn about subscriber rate. It feels like a lot of that has changed lately. Except for this issue it seems ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Kuronaga The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2011.02.22 03:27:00 - [1075] Most precisely. It's making me re-think a lot of what I think of this company. It's really depressing, this has been my favorite development studio for a long time, for pretty much all of the reasons that contradict this thread. Wish I knew what happened.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.22 05:04:00 - [1076] Originally by: Kuronaga Wish I knew what happened. the want of this: $ AKA greed ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Miep Miep The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.02.22 07:40:00 - [1077] so... still no post from cpp? speaking of the bot problem -> 3 day ban botting- > 1 day ban. lol
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.22 08:07:00 - [1078] Originally by: Miep Miep so... still no post from cpp? speaking of the bot problem -> 3 day ban botting- > 1 day ban. lol thats about it sadly
Von Hinten	Posted - 2011.02.22 08:31:00 - [1079] Funny: most bots scan local for words like "bot" "botter" "macro" all 5-10 minutes. Type this to a local chat where you suppose botters and watch 10 ppl log out 5mins later synchron:p .... and log in 30min later synchron too :(
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.22 09:04:00 - [1080] Originally by: Ephemeron Every time you sell a PLEX in game, you are sponsoring botting. Basicly, yeah. I suppose all the PLEX sellers won't be too happy to learn that 330M they get for $15 allows a single bot to earn around 30 Billion ISK per month. Basicly, earning 100 ($1500) times as much for nothing. I guess Interpol would also like to hear about people RMTing for an (tax fraudulent) income of (possibly much) more than $1000 per month.

Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2011.02.22 09:15:00 - [1081] Originally by: Von Hinten Funny: most bots scan local for words like "bot" "botter" "macro" all 5-10 minutes. Type this to a local chat where you suppose botters and watch 10 ppl log out 5mins later synchron:p .... and log in 30min later synchron too :( I've noticed this too. If CCP isn't going to take swifter, more concrete standards on the issue.. they basicly are telling us, they want the cash bot subs produce for the company. Reguardless that it **s over the entire economy of EVE, which is the foundation of this game. Reguardless if it *s over nullsec into an arms race of cycling top 3 alliances.. which really does create a large stignant mass of space that borders on boredom. Until CCP hands over the tools to us to handle the problem ourselves.. like delayed local in null, and a growing stiff mining/bounty taxes in NPC corps to eventually force them into wardec'able corps in highsec.. We should do our part til then. Instead of mentally fap'ing off to our beautiful* posting and arguing about what CCP should do... Flood CCP with legit petitions first off. Secondly, if I knew how.. I'd make a site. Solely dedicated to plastering the names of suspected and confirmed macros for all to see.. and the main characters that control them. Lets expose who is doing what.. Expose which of the major alliances, and just how much they are using bots to fuel their war machines. Smear them through the mud.. its drama.. drama creates interest, interest that note-worthy blogs and interweb articles pick up on and report. Then.. Like 18 months.. You can expect CCP to act swiftly and do something about it. Til then.. best pray EVE doesn't go sour like every single MMO that has ignored severe bot problems.. and EVE's bot problems are even more serious to its envirnoment than the other games... This is not a player driven economy because of bots. Nullsec is not what it could be.. because bots fuel and create the super-cap fleets that exist today. Imagine.. Imagine the effects on supers if bot miners/ratters were entirely removed.. the 'bring supers or go home' problem solved, without actually nerfing the ships. Because losing one would end up hurting a whole, whole lot more than it does now. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please.
Von Hinten	Posted - 2011.02.22 09:22:00 - [1082] Edited by: Von Hinten on 22/02/2011 09:23:42 Originally by: Umega Originally by: Von Hinten Funny: most bots scan local for words like "bot" "botter" "macro" all 5-10 minutes. Type this to a local chat where you suppose botters and watch 10 ppl log out 5mins later synchron:p .... and log in 30min later synchron too :( I've noticed this too. If CCP isn't going to take swifter, more concrete standards on the issue.. they basicly are telling us, they want the cash bot subs produce for the company. Reguardless that it **s over the entire economy of EVE, which is the foundation of this game. Reguardless if it *s over nullsec into an arms race of cycling top 3 alliances.. which really does create a large stignant mass of space that borders on boredom. Until CCP hands over the tools to us to handle the problem ourselves.. like delayed local in null, and a growing stiff mining/bounty taxes in NPC corps to eventually force them into wardec'able corps in highsec.. We should do our part til then. Instead of mentally fap'ing off to our beautiful* posting and arguing about what CCP should do... Flood CCP with legit petitions first off. Secondly, if I knew how.. I'd make a site. Solely dedicated to plastering the names of suspected and confirmed macros for all to see.. and the main characters that control them. Lets expose who is doing what.. Expose which of the major alliances, and just how much they are using bots to fuel their war machines. Smear them through the mud.. its drama.. drama creates interest, interest that note-worthy blogs and interweb articles pick up on and report. Then.. Like 18 months.. You can expect CCP to act swiftly and do something about it. Til then.. best pray EVE doesn't go sour like every single MMO that has ignored severe bot problems.. and EVE's bot problems are even more serious to its envirnoment than the other games... This is not a player driven economy because of bots. Nullsec is not what it could be.. because bots fuel and create the super-cap fleets that exist today. Imagine.. Imagine the effects on supers if bot miners/ratters were entirely removed.. the 'bring supers or go home' problem solved, without actually nerfing the ships. Because losing one would end up hurting a whole, whole lot more than it does now. Did that, got answer telling me that thex have not the ressources to investigate. gave them 300 botters + links to sites where corps adtvertises for bot freindly 0.0. oh, and if you post name of botters you will get banned for harrassment, sad, but true.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.22 09:44:00 - [1083] Originally by: Umega Flood CCP with legit petitions first off. Does not work. A few of us have been working out whether its actually possible to get botters permabanned. We've come to the conclusion that it is not. This is based on petitioning (over the course of 2 months) ONE person who never leaves the system he bots in, is online 20+ hours per day, is solely responsible for over 150 rat kills per hour EVERY hour he is online, cloaks up whenever someone who isn't blue enters system and remains cloaked for up to 14 hours (the most anyone could be bothered AFK camping "his system" for). He has been petitioned 9 times by 9 different characters in 9 different corps. He has been offline for three 24 hour periods during those 2 months which we're assuming may have been bans - the rest of the time he continues to bot 20+ hours a day, every day. The only thing that is going to make CCP do anything of a substantive nature is the removal of (real) players subs. As such, even if you don't really intend to quit I suggest that all players who find CCPs attitude unacceptable go to their account settings and hit the CANCEL SUBSCRIPTION button. Tell them why you're doing it. If enough of you do it then CCP will be forced to gamble that you're bluffing about cancelling or do something SERIOUS about bots. Its worth a try. NB - that doesn't actually cancel your sub until the next time a payment/PLEX is due. It DOES make your objections to CCP condoning cheating quite clear though.....
bustergonads	Posted - 2011.02.22 09:49:00 - [1084] Originally by: Umega Flood CCP with legit petitions first off. And then sit there for eternity as CCP do absolutely **** all just like they have for the last five or more years.
Von Hinten	Posted - 2011.02.22 10:06:00 - [1085] screenshot taken from a botter forum in a thread "how fat is your wallet" sidenote: this forum , just one of many evebots sites, has 4500 members....
WShatner	Posted - 2011.02.22 10:09:00 - [1086] Edited by: WShatner on 22/02/2011 10:12:33 An interesting wee rumour I heard.considering that the EN24 is doing more than any other organisation to try to stamp out botting, apparently CCP are refusing to do an interview with them about the problem, because they're furious about EN24's campaign.... I don't get why CCP aren't supporting this initiative? Can any of the Eve News guys confirm / deny?
Greniard	Posted - 2011.02.22 10:39:00 - [1087] Originally by: Othran The only thing that is going to make CCP do anything of a substantive nature is the removal of (real) players subs. As such, even if you don't really intend to quit I suggest that all players who find CCPs attitude unacceptable go to their account settings and hit the CANCEL SUBSCRIPTION button. Tell them why you're doing it. If enough of you do it then CCP will be forced to gamble that you're bluffing about cancelling or do something SERIOUS about bots. Its worth a try. Just did this. Not sure if I'm bluffing or not tho...
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.22 10:50:00 - [1088] Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 22/02/2011 10:51:17 Maybe CCP developed and sells that bot itself? Or they receive roalities? It seems kinda likely.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.22 11:02:00 - [1089] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Originally by: Kuronaga Edited by: Kuronaga on 22/02/2011 00:54:15 No one anymore, it seems. Not trying to be a **** but given the only example I put forth was Blizzard and you said "not anymore" I have to ask "When DID Blizzard value art over money?" Maybe their first ever game or something but even then, Im betting you there was a price tag attached to it But that did not stop blizzard from actually taking both in game and legal action against the botters. Pod
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.22 11:04:00 - [1090] Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 22/02/2011 11:04:21 Originally by: Pod Amarr But that did not stop blizzard from actually taking both in game and legal action against the botters. Yeah. There's no PLEX in WoW, tho.

Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.22 11:05:00 - [1091] Looking at the screenshots it is really sad. 17 trilion isk Hello CCP what you think that isk is used for other then the RMT. Pod
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.22 11:11:00 - [1092] Edited by: Othran on 22/02/2011 11:13:17 Originally by: Greniard Originally by: Othran The only thing that is going to make CCP do anything of a substantive nature is the removal of (real) players subs. As such, even if you don't really intend to quit I suggest that all players who find CCPs attitude unacceptable go to their account settings and hit the CANCEL SUBSCRIPTION button. Tell them why you're doing it. If enough of you do it then CCP will be forced to gamble that you're bluffing about cancelling or do something SERIOUS about bots. Its worth a try. Just did this. Not sure if I'm bluffing or not tho... I honestly hope they do something substantive to make me change my mind. However the bottom line is that I'm not paying any more real money to a games company which fails to enforce its own rules. The more people cheating the more CCP benefits in financial terms. CCP condones cheating. That's the truth of the matter.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.22 11:17:00 - [1093] Originally by: WShatner Edited by: WShatner on 22/02/2011 10:12:33 An interesting wee rumour I heard.considering that the EN24 is doing more than any other organisation to try to stamp out botting, apparently CCP are refusing to do an interview with them about the problem, because they're furious about EN24's campaign.... I don't get why CCP aren't supporting this initiative? Can any of the Eve News guys confirm / deny? There's a thread going on over at the site which must not be mentioned which suggests that CCP have less than a month before EN24 blows the whole sorry mess wide open. I hope they do it as CCP have a history of doing nothing about cheating until its in the mainstream media and some of them may pick up on the story.
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.22 11:24:00 - [1094] Originally by: Othran There's a thread going on over at the site which must not be mentioned which suggests that CCP have less than a month before EN24 blows the whole sorry mess wide open. I hope they do it as CCP have a history of doing nothing about cheating until its in the mainstream media and some of them may pick up on the story. I already reported this whole mess to various news sites, I recommend everyone to hand out a few news tips aswell to well known gaming sites and magazines.
Ming Call	Posted - 2011.02.22 11:26:00 - [1095] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Originally by: Othran There's a thread going on over at the site which must not be mentioned which suggests that CCP have less than a month before EN24 blows the whole sorry mess wide open. I hope they do it as CCP have a history of doing nothing about cheating until its in the mainstream media and some of them may pick up on the story. I already reported this whole mess to various news sites, I recommend everyone to hand out a few news tips aswell to well known gaming sites and magazines. This is an excellent idea.
Neamus	Posted - 2011.02.22 12:05:00 - [1096] I just read this article on EN24 It's really hammered home for me the utter futility of playing eve, well, at all really. It seems that if one wishes to be competitive then the ONLY way to do so right now is to become a botter. Also for those that are shouting for local to be delayed, or removed altogether, apparently that on its own wont help. Bots can still read client data, so they "know" when someone jumps in, regardless... Presumably this also means that bots are already perfectly safe in WH space. So this guy in the article, over the period of 9 months, has made 55k euro's via RMT, and still has a set of separate accounts for playing on, with 600b, a titan and a MS. Me? I've been playing on and off since 2003, and I have 1 carrier and about 3b in isk and assets. I was actually quite proud of that until today. lol.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.02.22 12:13:00 - [1097] To battle the spoils of capitalism, inflation and money printing that is done by evil bots the state must introduce socialism. No more open markets, money can not buy things, trade and exchange is controlled by the state centre. Soon the capitalist pigs will realize that their money things do not work. Because only RMT free parties can get what they need for their labour and service.
lost marble Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.22 12:36:00 - [1098] Originally by: Ming Call Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Originally by: Othran There's a thread going on over at the site which must not be mentioned which suggests that CCP have less than a month before EN24 blows the whole sorry mess wide open. I hope they do it as CCP have a history of doing nothing about cheating until its in the mainstream media and some of them may pick up on the story. I already reported this whole mess to various news sites, I recommend everyone to hand out a few news tips aswell to well known gaming sites and magazines. This is an excellent idea. People should hold their horses, the last uproar was about excellence and when CCP Zulu tried to write a blog to calm things down it blew the whole thing wide open. It then took several months for CCP to respond by changing their entire release schedule, putting team BFF on to fixing little things, increasing the number of dev blogs and adding a lot of small fixes to incursion. Based on that I find all the "warrrrgh CCP have abandoned EVE" talk in this thread to be somewhat childish and ungrateful, it takes time for a corporation to react to their market and as we all know action is the only thing players will be happy with, a dev blog stating that they are working on the problem would not go down well. If CCP are to tackle bots then hard decisions need to be made, should team BFF be taken off the 'little things' project to reverse engineer bot programs, or should it be team gridlock who are given the task? If GM's are to be tracking bots will new staff need hired or do you simply keep the same number of staff and accept that petitions will take longer? Don't get me wrong I want to see the bot problem brought under control but don't expect CCP to say anything until after the plan is implemented, otherwise they are inviting vast quantities of forum rage about a lack of action. The current situation with bots and plex is no doubt one of CCP's own making but they have in the past been very good about listening to players, it's just that players want things done yesterday so often don't see this. Give them time, as someone else said taking this issue to the press is a pyrrhic victory, we would be hurting the very game we are trying to protect. In CCP land getting something done inside of 6 months is considered fast, lets at least see what they come up with before crying that the sky is falling.
Kara Kugisa	Posted - 2011.02.22 12:39:00 - [1099] Edited by: Kara Kugisa on 22/02/2011 12:44:24 Originally by: Ephemeron It's interesting to note that botting really took off when CCP introduced PLEX - paying game money for monthly subscription. Before that, a person with 20 bots would have to spend $300 a month and risk losing real money when there are bans or disruptions in bot operations. Now ANYONE with enough hardware can run 20 bots with $0 subscription costs. The bots pay for themselves. It is precisely this mechanic that caused botting to grow geometrically, restrained only by the hardware limits to run multiple accounts. And they have absolutely no risk of losing money when getting banned. Banning doesn't stop them at all. Every time you sell a PLEX in game, you are sponsoring botting. Whilst Botting for RL money is annoying how does that affect other players in game ? Those bots arent then starting wars with their money. Whilst its annoying the true issue with botting is surely the fact real players do it to pay for ships to play the game and hence get an unfair advantage. What do I care if some Korean is making money by botting and sitting in an asteroid belt all day ? Might be wrong but affects me in no way at all. Removing Plex will remove the people selling ISK IRL but wont stop the botters who actually use it in game. And if you stop botting people will still buy plexes.
sarah mcjimmy	Posted - 2011.02.22 12:44:00 - [1100] Originally by: Kara Kugisa What do I care if some Korean is making money by botting and sitting in an asteroid belt all day ? Might be wrong but affects me in no way at all. Either directly or indirectly, it affects the whole of eve.

Kara Kugisa	Posted - 2011.02.22 12:46:00 - [1101] Originally by: sarah mcjimmy Originally by: Kara Kugisa What do I care if some Korean is making money by botting and sitting in an asteroid belt all day ? Might be wrong but affects me in no way at all. Either directly or indirectly, it affects the whole of eve. How ? If a korean botter makes 1 billion and sells it to a player who can get the isk from plex anyway how does that affect anything ?
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.22 12:46:00 - [1102] Originally by: lost marble Give them time, We have. Some of us have been pointing out the bots to CCP for years. The problem is that unless you stay where the bot is then how do you know (guess) what CCP did? I never stuck around to find out, I assumed that CCP would deal with it. I see the same bots around now that I reported years ago in Stain. On one memorable trip I went through 30+ systems in Stain making bookmarks. I saw 3 real people - they tried to gank me The rest were bots. They're still there.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.22 12:47:00 - [1103] Originally by: Pod Amarr Looking at the screenshots it is really sad. 17 trilion isk Hello CCP what you think that isk is used for other then the RMT. If you're referring to the image a few posts above, that's billion. Also, I wish there was an easy way to say when you didn't resubscribe when you use PLEXes (other than petitioning or something). I think I need a hiatus until something comes of this. I recently lost the will to play Eve due to something they did, and now this fiasco. Great.
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.22 12:51:00 - [1104] Originally by: lost marble Originally by: Ming Call Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Originally by: Othran There's a thread going on over at the site which must not be mentioned which suggests that CCP have less than a month before EN24 blows the whole sorry mess wide open. I hope they do it as CCP have a history of doing nothing about cheating until its in the mainstream media and some of them may pick up on the story. I already reported this whole mess to various news sites, I recommend everyone to hand out a few news tips aswell to well known gaming sites and magazines. This is an excellent idea. People should hold their horses, the last uproar was about excellence and when CCP Zulu tried to write a blog to calm things down it blew the whole thing wide open. It then took several months for CCP to respond by changing their entire release schedule, putting team BFF on to fixing little things, increasing the number of dev blogs and adding a lot of small fixes to incursion. Based on that I find all the "warrrrgh CCP have abandoned EVE" talk in this thread to be somewhat childish and ungrateful, it takes time for a corporation to react to their market and as we all know action is the only thing players will be happy with, a dev blog stating that they are working on the problem would not go down well. If CCP are to tackle bots then hard decisions need to be made, should team BFF be taken off the 'little things' project to reverse engineer bot programs, or should it be team gridlock who are given the task? If GM's are to be tracking bots will new staff need hired or do you simply keep the same number of staff and accept that petitions will take longer? Don't get me wrong I want to see the bot problem brought under control but don't expect CCP to say anything until after the plan is implemented, otherwise they are inviting vast quantities of forum rage about a lack of action. The current situation with bots and plex is no doubt one of CCP's own making but they have in the past been very good about listening to players, it's just that players want things done yesterday so often don't see this. Give them time, as someone else said taking this issue to the press is a pyrrhic victory, we would be hurting the very game we are trying to protect. In CCP land getting something done inside of 6 months is considered fast, lets at least see what they come up with before crying that the sky is falling. You're mostly right of course. ..thinking.. we mostly want a reply from CCP, but maybe they're not saying anything yet exactly because they are working on it? Would make some sense. I mean, sure, it always took CCP a few days or a week to respond with a satisfactory reply, but the botting issue isn't exactly new. And all their past endevours to control this problem have, as far as we can tell, not done anything and the players have to draw the line somewhere.
Neamus	Posted - 2011.02.22 12:53:00 - [1105] Yes they are actually, and evidentially most of the big alliances are in on it. The supercap fleets that alliances keep throwing at each other are essentially bot funded. So not only are there bots in eve that make their operators more RL money than most get paid annually, for what ever they do (unless you're lucky enough to have a 100k+ RL job).. But there are also bots running around right now that are funding alliances in-game activities, inclusive of war. I don't see how an alliance in EvE can be competitive without botting, or at least turning a blind eye to it.
Ming Call	Posted - 2011.02.22 12:59:00 - [1106] Originally by: lost marble People should hold their horses, the last uproar was about excellence and when CCP Zulu tried to write a blog to calm things down it blew the whole thing wide open. It then took several months for CCP to respond by changing their entire release schedule, putting team BFF on to fixing little things, increasing the number of dev blogs and adding a lot of small fixes to incursion. Based on that I find all the "warrrrgh CCP have abandoned EVE" talk in this thread to be somewhat childish and ungrateful, it takes time for a corporation to react to their market and as we all know action is the only thing players will be happy with, a dev blog stating that they are working on the problem would not go down well. If CCP are to tackle bots then hard decisions need to be made, should team BFF be taken off the 'little things' project to reverse engineer bot programs, or should it be team gridlock who are given the task? If GM's are to be tracking bots will new staff need hired or do you simply keep the same number of staff and accept that petitions will take longer? Don't get me wrong I want to see the bot problem brought under control but don't expect CCP to say anything until after the plan is implemented, otherwise they are inviting vast quantities of forum rage about a lack of action. The current situation with bots and plex is no doubt one of CCP's own making but they have in the past been very good about listening to players, it's just that players want things done yesterday so often don't see this. Give them time, as someone else said taking this issue to the press is a pyrrhic victory, we would be hurting the very game we are trying to protect. In CCP land getting something done inside of 6 months is considered fast, lets at least see what they come up with before crying that the sky is falling. I wasn't aware that botting was a brand new problem of the the last few months. Silly me. I thought it had been going on for years and years, without any significant measurable impact from CCP to put it right. I guess we are being unreasonable to assume that CCP would have considered a solution after such a short period of time.
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.22 13:00:00 - [1107] Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 22/02/2011 13:00:28 Originally by: Neamus Yes they are actually, and evidentially most of the big alliances are in on it. The supercap fleets that alliances keep throwing at each other are essentially bot funded. So not only are there bots in eve that make their operators more RL money than most get paid annually, for what ever they do (unless you're lucky enough to have a 100k+ RL job).. But there are also bots running around right now that are funding alliances in-game activities, inclusive of war. I don't see how an alliance in EvE can be competitive without botting, or at least turning a blind eye to it. Yeah, in fact I think that is something CCP keeps overlooking constantly: Peer pressure and competition If they field a blob, you field a blob, if they bot, you have to bot, etc.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.22 13:07:00 - [1108] Wow. Some of the comments on this thread seem to suggest this is nothing more than a witch hunt against players that enjoy mining and missioning. By the definitions put forth here I am a bot . Feel free to report me. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Greniard	Posted - 2011.02.22 13:20:00 - [1109] Originally by: Othran Originally by: WShatner Edited by: WShatner on 22/02/2011 10:12:33 An interesting wee rumour I heard.considering that the EN24 is doing more than any other organisation to try to stamp out botting, apparently CCP are refusing to do an interview with them about the problem, because they're furious about EN24's campaign.... I don't get why CCP aren't supporting this initiative? Can any of the Eve News guys confirm / deny? There's a thread going on over at the site which must not be mentioned which suggests that CCP have less than a month before EN24 blows the whole sorry mess wide open. I hope they do it as CCP have a history of doing nothing about cheating until its in the mainstream media and some of them may pick up on the story. If EN24 do what it seems they are planning, it's going to be epic. <3
lost marble Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.22 13:47:00 - [1110] Originally by: Ming Call Originally by: lost marble snip I wasn't aware that botting was a brand new problem of the the last few months. Silly me. I thought it had been going on for years and years, without any significant measurable impact from CCP to put it right. I guess we are being unreasonable to assume that CCP would have considered a solution after such a short period of time. It's far from a new problem but the current reaction is new, botting is rampant in a lot of games so most players grudgingly accept that it happens. Horus, riverini and the EN24 team have between them changed all that, the numbers are now plain for everyone to see. As I said about players always wanting things done yesterday the warning signs were there but then again the signs were there for every issue CCP ever has to deal with, be it hybrid balance, excellence or botting. We the players demanded that CCP put their resources in to fixing little things which they then did, now people are moaning that no resources are being spent on combating botting and that CCP don't listen. My point was that if CCP are to respond to player concearns then we have to accept that the world is not perfect, resources are finite and CCP take time to react.

Ohmunny	Posted - 2011.02.22 13:57:00 - [1111] Originally by: Von Hinten screenshot taken from a botter forum in a thread "how fat is your wallet" sidenote: this forum , just one of many evebots sites, has 4500 members.... No offense here. But how did you come upon this bot forum? Unless you were looking to get a bot yourself? I'm not a botter and I wouldnt know where or care to search for one. Thanks to you, now, anyone who interested in botting will know exactly what bot to use and what to search for. Anyway, lets be honest here people. Everyone here complains about bottings and voice their hate for botters. But given a chance, im sure some of these people will use them bots in a heart beat. I dont care about bots. I dont feel affected by them. I just carebear and enjoy my game. If those players choose to be botters, so be it. I could care less. Iff CCP deals with them, fine. If not, fine. I rather CCP worry about fixing the game than catering to all these whine posts.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.22 14:13:00 - [1112] Ohmunny, if they do nothing, it deteriorates into everyone botting to stand a chance in the isk-dependent 0.0 areas. And people in high sec will start doing it whilst they are at work. So they don't need to grind. If it's not stopped, the game will spiral into oblivion.
General Windypops The Littlest Hobos En Garde	Posted - 2011.02.22 14:16:00 - [1113] Edited by: General Windypops on 22/02/2011 14:18:20 Originally by: Greniard Originally by: Othran Originally by: WShatner Edited by: WShatner on 22/02/2011 10:12:33 An interesting wee rumour I heard.considering that the EN24 is doing more than any other organisation to try to stamp out botting, apparently CCP are refusing to do an interview with them about the problem, because they're furious about EN24's campaign.... I don't get why CCP aren't supporting this initiative? Can any of the Eve News guys confirm / deny? There's a thread going on over at the site which must not be mentioned which suggests that CCP have less than a month before EN24 blows the whole sorry mess wide open. I hope they do it as CCP have a history of doing nothing about cheating until its in the mainstream media and some of them may pick up on the story. If EN24 do what it seems they are planning, it's going to be epic. <3 Not quite that they're 'furious' with EN24 but CCP have refused me an interview because they claim they need to have a 'cooling off' period before they'll talk to us. It's a shame as I think a simple interview would really help us all to understand what they're planning to do about an issue that's clearly of HUGE importance to their players. I welcome the opportunity for CCP to put over their side of the story whenever they feel ready. Please resize your signature to no more than 120 x 400 pixels. - Adida Twitter:@genrlwindypops
Ohmunny	Posted - 2011.02.22 14:19:00 - [1114] Originally by: Nina Mercedez Ohmunny, if they do nothing, it deteriorates into everyone botting to stand a chance in the isk-dependent 0.0 areas. And people in high sec will start doing it whilst they are at work. So they don't need to grind. If it's not stopped, the game will spiral into oblivion. I guess it is a careless and self-fish thinking coming from me. Im going to agree with what you are saying. Anyway, lets spend more time playing and less time QQing about botting. Im sure CCP doesnt want EVE to turn into a bot haven and they probably doing something about it.
bustergonads	Posted - 2011.02.22 14:35:00 - [1115] Originally by: Ohmunny Im sure CCP doesnt want EVE to turn into a bot haven and they probably doing something about it. 5+ years and no sign of this yet...
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.22 14:38:00 - [1116] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 22/02/2011 14:39:16 Originally by: WShatner Edited by: WShatner on 22/02/2011 10:12:33 An interesting wee rumour I heard.considering that the EN24 is doing more than any other organisation to try to stamp out botting, apparently CCP are refusing to do an interview with them about the problem, because they're furious about EN24's campaign.... I don't get why CCP aren't supporting this initiative? Can any of the Eve News guys confirm / deny? CCP doesn't want to stamp out bots, obviously. They like the fact they are getting extra money from PLEX purchases and they don't want that gravy train to stop. Well, it wouldn't stop, but without the botters there would be less demand for PLEX items which would mean lower prices for them on the market and thus, less incentive for people to buy them from CCP to convert to ISK. This is why "Unholy Rage" was never repeated after they realized the effect botters would have on the PLEX market and their revenues. They need all that money after all to keep developing DUST and Twilight Online.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.22 14:49:00 - [1117] Originally by: Ohmunny Originally by: Nina Mercedez Ohmunny, if they do nothing, it deteriorates into everyone botting to stand a chance in the isk-dependent 0.0 areas. And people in high sec will start doing it whilst they are at work. So they don't need to grind. If it's not stopped, the game will spiral into oblivion. I guess it is a careless and self-fish thinking coming from me. Im going to agree with what you are saying. Anyway, lets spend more time playing and less time QQing about botting. Im sure CCP doesnt want EVE to turn into a bot haven and they probably doing something about it. The old ostrich move doesn't really work. The offenders get a 3 day ban. lol, you've got be kidding. I don't want a perma-ban, I want account deletion. What ****ing use is a 3 day ban? Oh, they get to turn their PC off for 3 days now, sweet. Oh wait, they can just use their other 7 accounts.
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.02.22 14:53:00 - [1118] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 22/02/2011 14:39:16 Originally by: WShatner Edited by: WShatner on 22/02/2011 10:12:33 An interesting wee rumour I heard.considering that the EN24 is doing more than any other organisation to try to stamp out botting, apparently CCP are refusing to do an interview with them about the problem, because they're furious about EN24's campaign.... I don't get why CCP aren't supporting this initiative? Can any of the Eve News guys confirm / deny? CCP doesn't want to stamp out bots, obviously. They like the fact they are getting extra money from PLEX purchases and they don't want that gravy train to stop. Well, it wouldn't stop, but without the botters there would be less demand for PLEX items which would mean lower prices for them on the market and thus, less incentive for people to buy them from CCP to convert to ISK. This is why "Unholy Rage" was never repeated after they realized the effect botters would have on the PLEX market and their revenues. They need all that money after all to keep developing DUST and Twilight Online. You know when you put it like that, it kind of horrifies me when I think about how the CSM talked CCP out of using plex for microtransactions (temporarily, at least). If the demand for them had gone up like it was supposed to a few months back, it probably would've given the excuse we needed to get rid of the damn things. I can't say I like microtransactions but if I had to choose between that and bots, I'd scorch the Effing bots.
Angel of Night	Posted - 2011.02.22 14:59:00 - [1119] Originally by: General Windypops Not quite that they're 'furious' with EN24 but CCP have refused me an interview because they claim they need to have a 'cooling off' period before they'll talk to us. It's a shame as I think a simple interview would really help us all to understand what they're planning to do about an issue that's clearly of HUGE importance to their players. I welcome the opportunity for CCP to put over their side of the story whenever they feel ready. I surely hope that this 'cooling off' period isn't just coverup for 'we need more time to sweep this entire thing under the rug'. Btw remember incarna oh that lovely incarna and holy, even godly station walking. What bots? You can walk cant you see! Who cares about few bots? We already banned them for 1-3 days - just let it go and run around in your quarters like we want you to.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:13:00 - [1120] Originally by: General Windypops Not quite that they're 'furious' with EN24 but CCP have refused me an interview because they claim they need to have a 'cooling off' period before they'll talk to us. It's a shame as I think a simple interview would really help us all to understand what they're planning to do about an issue that's clearly of HUGE importance to their players. I welcome the opportunity for CCP to put over their side of the story whenever they feel ready. Remember how they treated K--- over T20? That's why the blackout. They are looking for scapegoats to ban rather than dealing with the problem. They probably have "EULA lawyers" looking for the clause to accuse your reporter of "OMG HAX!" in collecting the data. CCP has a history of reacting to being publicly embarrassed by punishing the whistleblower. CCP has a history and a habit of punishing the messenger. The article on EN24 shows how easy it is to find, identify, and collect evidence on bots, especially if you were a GM and didn't have to go through all the bother of travel, being visible in local, etc that an ordinary player has to, and exposes the fact that they clearly DO NOT do this is due to pure laziness and lack of will to do anything. Add to it the fact that the reported bots got only 24 hour bans as the final clincher that CCP does not take this seriously at all, it proves their statements to the contrary to be lies. They take ISK sellers seriously (supposedly) while they don't bother at all with the source, ie, how all that ISK is generated. If they attacked the bots, which would limit the supply, the cost of ISK would rise and be more in line with PLEX, which would actually SOLVE THE PROBLEM of people wanting to buy ISK! I can't understand why they can't see this. Well, I can, actually, I think we are making the mistake of assuming that CCP actually wishes to STOP RMT in ISK and the bots that generate it. If you don't look at this issue from that point of view and instead look at it from what makes CCP the most money you will understand that they have no incentive to stop it. CCP, it's WAY past time for you to make a definitive statement and back it with decisive action. Sending your mods in here to sabotage our discussion is inappropriate and only makes us angrier.

Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:15:00 - [1121] Really whine topics ? Anyone can do it really if you are bit technical you can do it no problem. It is not like you need possibility all people have the possibility. The sad true is that CCP does not care about this as long as they paid through the plex system. ONLY thing that has woken them up is bad press on review sites. Worked with the loag should be done again and on a more massive scale. Pod
Butzewutze	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:16:00 - [1122] What i dont get is why CCP only gives a timeban for 3 days if they found a macrouser. They should be banned and the ip monitored. At least thats what i would do. WAKE UP CCP!
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:17:00 - [1123] Originally by: Angel of Night Originally by: General Windypops Not quite that they're 'furious' with EN24 but CCP have refused me an interview because they claim they need to have a 'cooling off' period before they'll talk to us. It's a shame as I think a simple interview would really help us all to understand what they're planning to do about an issue that's clearly of HUGE importance to their players. I welcome the opportunity for CCP to put over their side of the story whenever they feel ready. I surely hope that this 'cooling off' period isn't just coverup for 'we need more time to sweep this entire thing under the rug'. Btw remember incarna oh that lovely incarna and holy, even godly station walking. What bots? You can walk cant you see! Who cares about few bots? We already banned them for 1-3 days - just let it go and run around in your quarters like we want you to. Just wait until WIS/Incarna adds some activity that you can generate ISK from and bots are made to automate THAT... This will happen, of course, it's inevitable.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:20:00 - [1124] Originally by: Butzewutze What i dont get is why CCP only gives a timeban for 3 days if they found a macrouser. They should be banned and the ip monitored. At least thats what i would do. WAKE UP CCP! Not even a 3 day ban. 24 hours.
4 2 0	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:29:00 - [1125] The real problem is PLEX This game is very gear (ship) based, meaning often times new players with expensive ships can easily kill vets. Whats the point of playing a game when everyone can legit buy as much isk as they want with rl money through plex? It completely ruins all competeivtive aspect of this game. Plex also is the reason why there are so many bots. Many players want the isk but don't want to pay for the subs out of their own pocket. Many also dont want to RMT to pay for their accounts, so they let other players and CCP do it for them.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:33:00 - [1126] Originally by: Von Hinten Edited by: Von Hinten on 22/02/2011 09:23:42 Originally by: Umega Originally by: Von Hinten Funny: most bots scan local for words like "bot" "botter" "macro" all 5-10 minutes. Type this to a local chat where you suppose botters and watch 10 ppl log out 5mins later synchron:p .... and log in 30min later synchron too :( I've noticed this too. If CCP isn't going to take swifter, more concrete standards on the issue.. they basicly are telling us, they want the cash bot subs produce for the company. Reguardless that it **s over the entire economy of EVE, which is the foundation of this game. Reguardless if it *s over nullsec into an arms race of cycling top 3 alliances.. which really does create a large stignant mass of space that borders on boredom. Until CCP hands over the tools to us to handle the problem ourselves.. like delayed local in null, and a growing stiff mining/bounty taxes in NPC corps to eventually force them into wardec'able corps in highsec.. We should do our part til then. Instead of mentally fap'ing off to our beautiful* posting and arguing about what CCP should do... Flood CCP with legit petitions first off. Secondly, if I knew how.. I'd make a site. Solely dedicated to plastering the names of suspected and confirmed macros for all to see.. and the main characters that control them. Lets expose who is doing what.. Expose which of the major alliances, and just how much they are using bots to fuel their war machines. Smear them through the mud.. its drama.. drama creates interest, interest that note-worthy blogs and interweb articles pick up on and report. Then.. Like 18 months.. You can expect CCP to act swiftly and do something about it. Til then.. best pray EVE doesn't go sour like every single MMO that has ignored severe bot problems.. and EVE's bot problems are even more serious to its envirnoment than the other games... This is not a player driven economy because of bots. Nullsec is not what it could be.. because bots fuel and create the super-cap fleets that exist today. Imagine.. Imagine the effects on supers if bot miners/ratters were entirely removed.. the 'bring supers or go home' problem solved, without actually nerfing the ships. Because losing one would end up hurting a whole, whole lot more than it does now. Did that, got answer telling me that thex have not the ressources to investigate. gave them 300 botters + links to sites where corps adtvertises for bot freindly 0.0. oh, and if you post name of botters you will get banned for harrassment, sad, but true. Send the list to a 3rd party site with the GM comments on How they do not have resources to publish ? Pod
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:37:00 - [1127] Compile all the evidence, GM correspondence, etc, and send it to every gaming news site you can find. I guess we can only get action from CCP when we cause them to not win some award they nominate themselves for I guess.
lost marble Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:39:00 - [1128] Originally by: Kuronaga Originally by: Jack Gilligan CCP doesn't want to stamp out bots, obviously. They like the fact they are getting extra money from PLEX purchases and they don't want that gravy train to stop. Well, it wouldn't stop, but without the botters there would be less demand for PLEX items which would mean lower prices for them on the market and thus, less incentive for people to buy them from CCP to convert to ISK. This is why "Unholy Rage" was never repeated after they realized the effect botters would have on the PLEX market and their revenues. They need all that money after all to keep developing DUST and Twilight Online. You know when you put it like that, it kind of horrifies me when I think about how the CSM talked CCP out of using plex for microtransactions (temporarily, at least). If the demand for them had gone up like it was supposed to a few months back, it probably would've given the excuse we needed to get rid of the damn things. I can't say I like microtransactions but if I had to choose between that and bots, I'd scorch the Effing bots. It doesn't need microtransactions, the whole plex / botter relationship can be sorted out easily with some basic economics. During unholy rage PLEX prices dropped to about 250 mill or less, that's ú35 for 500 mill isk. What that shows us is that without bots the free market can not sustain a high plex price, it certainly can't compete with RMT sites who will sell you a billion isk for the same ú35. All CCP need to do is set minimum and maximum buy and sell prices in the form of NPC buy and sell orders, this would guarantee value for people wanting to buy isk and if combined with an anti botter initiative would drive RMT prices up so that there's not point in using them any more. Apart from the occasional player who might be forced to pay for their account with RL money instead of ISK I really see no downside to doing this and on the upside we get rid of bots and CCP get to increase their revenue by owning the entire RMT market. If you kill off RMT and give permabans to players caught using bots then investment in bots crumbles. What's not to like?
J'Torr Kitano Caldari ZiiP Empire	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:45:00 - [1129] WARNING: WOT I've been keeping an eye on this thread for some time now. I've gone from giggling at the whole 'FEED UP!' thing, to reading it and thinking 'well, I've always known botting goes on, it doesn't really affect me though', to now thinking actually, if the numbers here are accurate then yes, the bots are affecting me. I've only recently got myself into the position where I can solo lvl 4 missions, which I do so that I can buy ships to pvp in (only just creeping into this area now, finally). Having got myself here I'll now be looking at all those other areas of Eve I haven't participated in; War Dec'ing, Low Sec belt ratting, market profits, manufacturing, heck, maybe even mining...but in all these things it now seems obvious, I'll be in direct competition with players who use bots to make their isk. I'm a casual player, I get on maybe a couple hours during the week and then maybe a 3 or 4 hour session on a Sat or Sun with my corp, which is why initially I thought botting doesn't affect me. I now see how wrong I was. Everything in Eve revolves ultimately around isk - even training the skills becomes irrelevant after a point when you look at how much money these bots make and how they do it. If you you have the most money coming in then you win. You can replace ships, pimp out your POS, hire mercs, buy sovereignty, hell you can buy peoples allegiance = you WIN. It's my opinion that the moment you embrace all the depth that Eve has to offer in all the ways I mentioned above and more, then that is the moment that you are in direct competition with these bots, whether you admit it or not. Bots now seem be an influencing aspect of the game û ignoring it doesnÆt mean itÆs not there, thatÆs like saying hi-sec is safe from pvp. This has been a bit of a Wizard of Oz experience for me, peering behind the CCP curtain and finding a little empty chair in front of a cash machine spewing isk into boxes behind a cardboard cutout of a man frozen in the æsmile and waveÆ poseà TL:DR = Money is a reflection of win in Eve. How can you possibly compete with 23hr bots? Looking forward to a CCP statement of intended action (not a æwe care, honestÆ post) and will be keeping an eye on the player suggestions in this thread. what means 'isk per hour' anyway...?
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:47:00 - [1130] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 22/02/2011 15:50:32 Originally by: lost marble During unholy rage PLEX prices dropped to about 250 mill or less, that's ú35 for 500 mill isk. What that shows us is that without bots the free market can not sustain a high plex price, it certainly can't compete with RMT sites who will sell you a billion isk for the same ú35. All CCP need to do is set minimum and maximum buy and sell prices in the form of NPC buy and sell orders, this would guarantee value for people wanting to buy isk and if combined with an anti botter initiative would drive RMT prices up so that there's not point in using them any more. Apart from the occasional player who might be forced to pay for their account with RL money instead of ISK I really see no downside to doing this and on the upside we get rid of bots and CCP get to increase their revenue by owning the entire RMT market. If you kill off RMT and give permabans to players caught using bots then investment in bots crumbles. What's not to like? That's the point I've been trying to make but it keeps getting deleted, as I suspect yours will, CCP is insane about wanting to suppress anyone pointing out the fact that PLEX for ISK is, in fact a poor value, AND THE BOTS ARE THE CAUSE OF IT! Yes, PLEX as it is now can't continue. It needs to be yanked completely and replaced with an outright cash shop, OR, as you suggest, it needs to be supported by NPC orders to keep it at a level where buying ISK from the botters is not a viable option. Not to mention, price supports for PLEX would make botting more expensive. A win win. I don't see CCP having the wisdom to see this though, the only CCP people reading this thread are the moderators. The chief argument against this is that it amounts to interference in the "free market". The market already isn't free. It's being distorted by the botters and the RMT'ers. Failure to take action will cause this distortion to only increase over time, and eventually, cause so much disruption that people stop playing because they can't compete with the bots, keep up with the ever increasing prices for stuff, and they can't afford to buy PLEX's.

Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:54:00 - [1131] Originally by: J'Torr Kitano WARNING: WOT I've been keeping an eye on this thread for some time now. I've gone from giggling at the whole 'FEED UP!' thing, to reading it and thinking 'well, I've always known botting goes on, it doesn't really affect me though', to now thinking actually, if the numbers here are accurate then yes, the bots are affecting me. I've only recently got myself into the position where I can solo lvl 4 missions, which I do so that I can buy ships to pvp in (only just creeping into this area now, finally). Having got myself here I'll now be looking at all those other areas of Eve I haven't participated in; War Dec'ing, Low Sec belt ratting, market profits, manufacturing, heck, maybe even mining...but in all these things it now seems obvious, I'll be in direct competition with players who use bots to make their isk. I'm a casual player, I get on maybe a couple hours during the week and then maybe a 3 or 4 hour session on a Sat or Sun with my corp, which is why initially I thought botting doesn't affect me. I now see how wrong I was. Everything in Eve revolves ultimately around isk - even training the skills becomes irrelevant after a point when you look at how much money these bots make and how they do it. If you you have the most money coming in then you win. You can replace ships, pimp out your POS, hire mercs, buy sovereignty, hell you can buy peoples allegiance = you WIN. It's my opinion that the moment you embrace all the depth that Eve has to offer in all the ways I mentioned above and more, then that is the moment that you are in direct competition with these bots, whether you admit it or not. Bots now seem be an influencing aspect of the game û ignoring it doesnÆt mean itÆs not there, thatÆs like saying hi-sec is safe from pvp. This has been a bit of a Wizard of Oz experience for me, peering behind the CCP curtain and finding a little empty chair in front of a cash machine spewing isk into boxes behind a cardboard cutout of a man frozen in the æsmile and waveÆ poseà TL:DR = Money is a reflection of win in Eve. How can you possibly compete with 23hr bots? Looking forward to a CCP statement of intended action (not a æwe care, honestÆ post) and will be keeping an eye on the player suggestions in this thread. So, without more info, I'd say you are relatively new. About to solo L4s (for isk?). And play very casually. Not a lot of time to grind? Even less time for the actual fun stuff? Well, maybe you should bot, too. The pros outweigh the cons.
lost marble Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.22 15:59:00 - [1132] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Yes, PLEX as it is now can't continue. It needs to be yanked completely and replaced with an outright cash shop, OR, as you suggest, it needs to be supported by NPC orders to keep it at a level where buying ISK from the botters is not a viable option. One of the main reasons for not having a cash shop has always been that it bypasses the economy, there are also issues about the slippery slope to selling faction ships and other pay to win options. The idea of having an NPC buy order is that it only gets used when there are no player orders there, only in very rare circumstances would the player market dry up completely and run out of plexes. I personally think PLEX is a great idea that's been handled badly, it was meant to combat RMT but by letting bots run rampant it has fuelled them instead. Used properly I see no reason why PLEX shouldn't be able to undercut illegal ISK sites.
Stabby McKnife	Posted - 2011.02.22 16:04:00 - [1133] I, too, am looking forward to CCP actually answering to all this. It's starting to become more and more obvious that CCP doesn't care about botters all, and I'm seriously starting to :tinfoil: because of all this. Just ban the frackers, seriouly! I won't like Eve less because we lose (over) 9000 bots off the PCU. I can understand that it will be a loss of income, but seriously, if your business model is dependent on people breaking the EULA, then you have a problem. I know that there are several people working on getting botting stories published on the major MMO sites. Eventually one of them will be published. Eve24, biased as they might be, seem to be on a rampage against bots, and all kugu crap-posting aside, Rivereni doesn't seem to give up anytime soon. Just 'fix' it, CCP. Please! I want to continue to enjoy your product. Posting from an alt, as I screwed my subscription up. >.<
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.02.22 16:06:00 - [1134] Originally by: lost marble Originally by: Kuronaga Originally by: Jack Gilligan CCP doesn't want to stamp out bots, obviously. They like the fact they are getting extra money from PLEX purchases and they don't want that gravy train to stop. Well, it wouldn't stop, but without the botters there would be less demand for PLEX items which would mean lower prices for them on the market and thus, less incentive for people to buy them from CCP to convert to ISK. This is why "Unholy Rage" was never repeated after they realized the effect botters would have on the PLEX market and their revenues. They need all that money after all to keep developing DUST and Twilight Online. You know when you put it like that, it kind of horrifies me when I think about how the CSM talked CCP out of using plex for microtransactions (temporarily, at least). If the demand for them had gone up like it was supposed to a few months back, it probably would've given the excuse we needed to get rid of the damn things. I can't say I like microtransactions but if I had to choose between that and bots, I'd scorch the Effing bots. It doesn't need microtransactions, the whole plex / botter relationship can be sorted out easily with some basic economics. During unholy rage PLEX prices dropped to about 250 mill or less, that's ú35 for 500 mill isk. What that shows us is that without bots the free market can not sustain a high plex price, it certainly can't compete with RMT sites who will sell you a billion isk for the same ú35. All CCP need to do is set minimum and maximum buy and sell prices in the form of NPC buy and sell orders, this would guarantee value for people wanting to buy isk and if combined with an anti botter initiative would drive RMT prices up so that there's not point in using them any more. Apart from the occasional player who might be forced to pay for their account with RL money instead of ISK I really see no downside to doing this and on the upside we get rid of bots and CCP get to increase their revenue by owning the entire RMT market. If you kill off RMT and give permabans to players caught using bots then investment in bots crumbles. What's not to like? Well for one, you killed off the entire purpose of a player driven economy. Players need to decide how much plex is worth to them, not ccp. I don't do much trading but I know well enough it is too big of a part of the game to instigate a floor and roof on plex. Furthermore it is highly likely that it would screw over the rest of the games economy at the same time -- other items will change in value to correspond with any changes to the PLEX system, if the PLEX system itself cannot change. if PLEX is required for certain microtransactions later on (which is very likely) the demand will shoot way up, but so will the prices for everything else since the price of PLEX would be locked. CCP would get to make more money on each individual plex, the player would get shafted, and successful RMT'rs will make an even bigger killing because the actual value of individual plex has dropped, and it is only valuable purchasing them in bulk.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.22 16:11:00 - [1135] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 22/02/2011 16:12:07 Originally by: lost marble I personally think PLEX is a great idea that's been handled badly, it was meant to combat RMT but by letting bots run rampant it has fuelled them instead. Used properly I see no reason why PLEX shouldn't be able to undercut illegal ISK sites. CCP's counter argument will be that if PLEX gave you 1B for $35 that it would distort the economy. That is where it's going to have to START at to kill the bots/sellers, it doesn't have to STAY there. The NPC orders should be adjusted over time. Reality, however, regardless of what CCP thinks is that a value for ISK has already been set. As things are now it's out of their control. But it doesn't HAVE to be. Adding NPC buy/sell orders would literally give CCP a switch they can adjust to harm bots and ISK sellers when they increase in activity: simply increase the buy orders fro PLEX on the markets so the 3rd party sellers HAVE NO MARKET.
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.02.22 16:17:00 - [1136] You're gonna see a terrifying backlash if you do that. How is lowering the value of PLEX going to deter non-RMT? It makes the RMT deal seem even sweeter. How is raising the value of PLEX going to help the regular player? They'll either stop spending isk on PLEX, or start buying isk from RMT to spend on PLEX, thus multiplying its value. Remember RMT can always adjust their prices too.
lost marble Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.22 16:19:00 - [1137] Originally by: Kuronaga Well for one, you killed off the entire purpose of a player driven economy. Players need to decide how much plex is worth to them, not ccp. Why? Eve's market is no more free than a lion in a safari park, it can move within certain boundaries but CCP set those by deciding resource rates, build quantities etc. If the 'free market' isn't working then CCP need to change something, just like they do with every other product on the market. Originally by: Kuronaga I don't do much trading but I know well enough it is too big of a part of the game to instigate a floor and roof on plex. Furthermore it is highly likely that it would screw over the rest of the games economy at the same time -- other items will change in value to correspond with any changes to the PLEX system, if the PLEX system itself cannot change. Please name an item that's value is tied to PLEX. Originally by: Kuronaga if PLEX is required for certain microtransactions later on (which is very likely) the demand will shoot way up, but so will the prices for everything else since the price of PLEX would be locked. CCP would get to make more money on each individual plex, the player would get shafted, and successful RMT'rs will make an even bigger killing because the actual value of individual plex has dropped, and it is only valuable purchasing them in bulk. TBH I really don't understand your logic here. An NPC order is moveable, you could even set it to an algorithm like they do with insurance. The point I was making was that if PLEX isn't undercutting RMT sites then it is fuelling them and there's no point in having it at all.
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.02.22 16:55:00 - [1138] Originally by: lost marble Originally by: Kuronaga Well for one, you killed off the entire purpose of a player driven economy. Players need to decide how much plex is worth to them, not ccp. Why? Eve's market is no more free than a lion in a safari park, it can move within certain boundaries but CCP set those by deciding resource rates, build quantities etc. If the 'free market' isn't working then CCP need to change something, just like they do with every other product on the market. Originally by: Kuronaga I don't do much trading but I know well enough it is too big of a part of the game to instigate a floor and roof on plex. Furthermore it is highly likely that it would screw over the rest of the games economy at the same time -- other items will change in value to correspond with any changes to the PLEX system, if the PLEX system itself cannot change. Please name an item that's value is tied to PLEX. Originally by: Kuronaga if PLEX is required for certain microtransactions later on (which is very likely) the demand will shoot way up, but so will the prices for everything else since the price of PLEX would be locked. CCP would get to make more money on each individual plex, the player would get shafted, and successful RMT'rs will make an even bigger killing because the actual value of individual plex has dropped, and it is only valuable purchasing them in bulk. TBH I really don't understand your logic here. An NPC order is moveable, you could even set it to an algorithm like they do with insurance. The point I was making was that if PLEX isn't undercutting RMT sites then it is fuelling them and there's no point in having it at all. It's valued is tied to every single item in the game. It is the closest thing resembling real world currency, after all. Here's some food for thought, algorithm in place or not (and we know how well they work). You set the minimum to 350 mil or so, maximum 500 mil. players can only trade within these limits. So everyone undercuts each other down to 351 mil or stupid close. Casual player says f*** this, im just gonna sell it instantly for 350 i want the money now. Grats, you've just generated 350 million ISK into the economy that did not exist, instantly. This will happen hundreds of times every single day. Inflation happens in a very big way. For everything.
gfldex	Posted - 2011.02.22 16:57:00 - [1139] Originally by: lost marble The point I was making was that if PLEX isn't undercutting RMT sites then it is fuelling them and there's no point in having it at all. There is a point and it's real simple. With PLEX (and secure GTCs) CCP can give players a reason to stay with the game who do not believe it's still worth their money. <-- one of those It is a can of worms ofc. And it's not just RMTs who can maintain their accounts with PLEX. I'm quite sure there are plenty of new players that have to learn that those big shiny ships they just bought are worthless without the SP they will have to wait another 3 months for. Given that they just spend the money for a subscription already for that PLEX there is very little reason for them to stay. You can't really stop it anyways because players can trade GTCs for ISK all the time. With PLEX CCP can at least keep an eye on it. In fact PLEX can help to identify a bot in the first place and it makes it easier to identify the main of a bot alt.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.22 16:58:00 - [1140] The discussion over PLEX prices is irrelevant and is simply a distraction from the main point. Why does CCP condone cheating and what will it take to make their attitude change? CCP can manipulate the market any way they like to compensate for bots being permabanned. They can manipulate the PLEX prices such that its more attractive than RMT. They have the tools to do this. They choose not to because doing nothing benefits their company financially.

J'Torr Kitano Caldari ZiiP Empire	Posted - 2011.02.22 17:08:00 - [1141] Edited by: J''Torr Kitano on 22/02/2011 17:09:55 Originally by: Nina Mercedez So, without more info, I'd say you are relatively new. About to solo L4s (for isk?). And play very casually. Not a lot of time to grind? Even less time for the actual fun stuff? Well, maybe you should bot, too. The pros outweigh the cons. A year and a month old or so, so yes, relatively new - while I've been able to solo lvl 4s (yes, for isk!) for a while it's just not something I'd got round to doing until the last couple of months. And you've highlighted the issue very well with the rest of your post - while I've never considered botting, I have considered selling a PLEX/GTC w/ever to get me some iskies, but never bothered. Luckily I'm in a corp that supports my play style and has a good bunch of guys in it so it's not like I'm sat in 0.0 cursing my poor funds/ lack of ships ;) P.S.I find your lack of face disturbing. what means 'isk per hour' anyway...?
Neamus	Posted - 2011.02.22 17:10:00 - [1142] Shouldn't the primary focus be on technical measures against botting? Curtailing their ability to read client data, for instance? Even if someone succeeds in killing RMT, botters will still be popular for supporting in-game activities, such as disposable supercap fleets, reimbursement schemes, etc which is still anti-competitive. I just don't think that economic measures based around a pretend currency will stop it.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.22 17:33:00 - [1143] Originally by: J'Torr Kitano P.S.I find your lack of face disturbing. I find the fact that I'll soon be forced to make a new one disturbing. If only I could emulate the real NM. o_O
Tiima Tuscan	Posted - 2011.02.22 17:55:00 - [1144] Originally by: Quazal Atreides Originally by: Cyrus Doul , By doing so the money can leave their account. get washed by blinks account and sent back as an actual item instead of isk again. Adding one more layer of masking to it. you see people like Quazal Atreides on there 15+ hours a day. at this point they have bots for the bots. He at this point has put at least 55 billion isk into the game as shown by his achievements. A" Firstly who the ** are you calling me a bot, I am a player who has enough isk to gamble just because you have to beg borrow steal to get enough isk to play per month that aint my problem and for the record this is taken directly from Somer site ISK Deposited118,500,000,000 ISK Blinks Played8,433 Promo Blinks Played49 Blinks Won1,138 Megablinks Won96 Win Ratio13.49% Value of Blinks Won160,076,000,000 ISK So a bot am i :) the fact if you even bothered to get off your lazy arse and investigate is that i sit in the blink channel all day and chat away you can pop in most times and say hi. Hey half time im in game half time im the fact that i can do research on my final dissatation paper and click a button and win things is non of your Fing business. So next time you decide to call someone a bot please get off you lazy arse and do some investigation. If you even bothered to do checking on me on the forum you would see that i run succesfull business and ddonate to the community (not much granted) but more than some whiny ass 2isk pimp like you. Thanks and good night! NB This script wasn't written by a Bot but a **ed of player who like most people in eve takes great pleasure in killing/and hutting out ratting/mining macros Maybe you should learn how to spell dissertation before you submit it for marking
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:00:00 - [1145] Originally by: Neamus Shouldn't the primary focus be on technical measures against botting? Personally, I think that the primary focus at this point should be getting CCP to admit that there is a problem, that the problem is not limited RMT, and that the measures to date have not been adequet to make the player base believe that CCP takes the problem seriously. I honestly believe that if CCP decided that eliminating bots from Eve was in their best interest, we wouldn't need to discuss technical measures.
4 2 0	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:12:00 - [1146] Originally by: Othran The discussion over PLEX prices is irrelevant and is simply a distraction from the main point. Not in any way irrelevant. Players can run as many accounts as they want without paying any real money. Most players wont want to spend the time setting up a RMT buisness to pay for their bot accounts.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:24:00 - [1147] Edited by: Othran on 22/02/2011 18:26:36 Originally by: 4 2 0 Originally by: Othran The discussion over PLEX prices is irrelevant and is simply a distraction from the main point. Not in any way irrelevant. Players can run as many accounts as they want without paying any real money. Most players wont want to spend the time setting up a RMT buisness to pay for their bot accounts. Its totally irrelevant in terms of bots. PLEX is "paid for" within a day or two of macro ratting. Edit - and before you muddy the water more (as that's what you're here for) it wouldn't matter if you increased the cost of PLEX by a factor of ten, bots could still afford it and make some isk for their main/main's alliance. Players couldn't. Bots could, but you know that.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:35:00 - [1148] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 22/02/2011 18:38:12 Originally by: Von Hinten Did that, got answer telling me that thex have not the ressources to investigate. gave them 300 botters + links to sites where corps adtvertises for bot freindly 0.0. oh, and if you post name of botters you will get banned for harrassment, sad, but true. Is it funny that its more of a violation of the game to post their names than it is to bot? Also, is it not funny that the company that RUNS THE GAME doesnt "have the resources" to combat these guys? Originally by: Pod Amarr But that did not stop blizzard from actually taking both in game and legal action against the botters. never mentioned them in context to the botters. Tead those posts again. You missed the point I was trying to point out that gaming companies dont value art over money not that blizzard didnt sue the botters and win... where the hell did you even GET that? ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:52:00 - [1149] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 22/02/2011 18:53:03 Originally by: General Windypops Edited by: General Windypops on 22/02/2011 14:18:20 Originally by: Greniard Originally by: Othran Originally by: WShatner Edited by: WShatner on 22/02/2011 10:12:33 An interesting wee rumour I heard.considering that the EN24 is doing more than any other organisation to try to stamp out botting, apparently CCP are refusing to do an interview with them about the problem, because they're furious about EN24's campaign.... I don't get why CCP aren't supporting this initiative? Can any of the Eve News guys confirm / deny? There's a thread going on over at the site which must not be mentioned which suggests that CCP have less than a month before EN24 blows the whole sorry mess wide open. I hope they do it as CCP have a history of doing nothing about cheating until its in the mainstream media and some of them may pick up on the story. If EN24 do what it seems they are planning, it's going to be epic. <3 Not quite that they're 'furious' with EN24 but CCP have refused me an interview because they claim they need to have a 'cooling off' period before they'll talk to us. It's a shame as I think a simple interview would really help us all to understand what they're planning to do about an issue that's clearly of HUGE importance to their players. I welcome the opportunity for CCP to put over their side of the story whenever they feel ready. I hope the EN24 guys are ready for a permaban then, CCP has a bad history with that with whistleblowers... hell theres one whose name is eve censored on the forums. (It starts with K) Originally by: bustergonads Originally by: Ohmunny Im sure CCP doesnt want EVE to turn into a bot haven and they probably doing something about it. 5+ years and no sign of this yet... Yeah, 20+ titans in one fight and hundreds of supercaps dont meant this at all ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.22 18:55:00 - [1150] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Remember how they treated K--- over T20? For history lesson, see sig lol ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51

Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.22 19:51:00 - [1151] Originally by: Othran Its totally irrelevant in terms of bots. PLEX is "paid for" within a day or two of macro ratting. Edit - and before you muddy the water more (as that's what you're here for) it wouldn't matter if you increased the cost of PLEX by a factor of ten, bots could still afford it and make some isk for their main/main's alliance. Players couldn't. Bots could, but you know that. You are correct. The EN24 story estimated that the botters up in the Russian Bot Region Motherland were making between 800M-1B a day. I think that's pretty conservative, but it's a good number for sake of argument. A PLEX costs between 330 and 350M. Let's split the difference and call it 340M. This means a bot pays for it's monthly game time in the first 8-9 hours it runs. Again, a very conservative estimate. At the low end figure, a bot running 23/7 would make 5.6B A WEEK, which means at 340M*12, or a little over 4B ISK, a bot earns A WHOLE YEAR of game time worth of PLEXS the first week. And that's just A SINGLE BOT in the crappiest space in all of 0.0, plus most of them are running more than one, as sophisticated macros allow for multiple bots to run on a single PC. So, yeah, you could TRIPLE the price of PLEX items and it wouldn't really discourage the bots. What increasing PLEX prices COULD do though is remove a lot of the incentive from botting, that being the demand for bought ISK. While I am sure some of the alliance level bots are being run to replace moon income to buy supercap fleets, I think that is the exception. No, most of that ISK is going up for sale on 3rd party sites.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.02.22 19:58:00 - [1152] we could hurt bots with real money if we found a way to limit PLEX to 1 account per physical location - or IP block. At the very, very least, prevent PLEX from being applied more than once on the same computer system. Typically bots would use same computer for 2-4 accounts. People with multiple accounts should not be able to pay for excessive accounts with PLEX. We should all make sacrifices to fight the bots.
lost marble Caldari	Posted - 2011.02.22 20:04:00 - [1153] Keeping the PLEX price up while simultaneously banning botters has two effects, it puts RMT sites out of business and it reduces the demand for bots by players. If neither RMT nor players are greatly interested in buying bots then it removes the majority of incentive to write the bot programmes, at the very least it cuts off their funding and drives out the professional bot writers. The solutions to bots needs to be both technical and financial.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.22 20:09:00 - [1154] Originally by: lost marble Keeping the PLEX price up while simultaneously banning botters has two effects, it puts RMT sites out of business and it reduces the demand for bots by players. If neither RMT nor players are greatly interested in buying bots then it removes the majority of incentive to write the bot programmes, at the very least it cuts off their funding and drives out the professional bot writers. The solutions to bots needs to be both technical and financial. Agree completely. No one thing (other than possibly removing PLEX entirely) will kill the bots. They need to be hit from all fronts simultaneously: Bans of toons that "play" 23/7 for days at a time, bans of alliances where this occurs in an excessive number, manipulation of the price of PLEX so that RMT isk sellers can't compete, ALL of it at the same time.
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.02.22 20:45:00 - [1155] Ban the bot! Not for 24 hours but delete the account and any associate accounts. I want to see highly active anti-bot offensives non stop, not some once every 2 year Unholy Rage PR campaign. Also: I don't care if ppl bot for RMT or just for the isk/assets. Hunt them all down, delete all their accounts, no whimpy short term bans.
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.02.22 20:50:00 - [1156] Originally by: lost marble Keeping the PLEX price up while simultaneously banning botters has two effects, it puts RMT sites out of business and it reduces the demand for bots by players. Artificially raising PLEX prices will do one more thing: make me stop playing EVE as I'm not going to pay 30-ish dollars a month to play this game and without alt accounts I find EVE no fun. Also:RMT will always exist. I'm not even against RMT, PLEX is RMT too. It's the automated generation of isk/assets that miffs me off since no legit player can ever compete against a bot.
Yana Cova Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.02.22 21:07:00 - [1157] Now colour me crazy - but at least the way this is going should solve the problem of RMT at least As more people realise CCP pretty much endorse botting and this becomes more public domain (3 day ban lolage) more and more people will bot pretty safe to say - given that no-one in their right mind would want or need to pay cash for isk since they can get billions a day with no effort - OMG WIN! So yeah the market will kill itself for RMT through suspected unoffical CCP policy Ofc, what this would also mean is that effectively prices become meaningless - (apart from hyper inflation for officer gear), if ISK becomes meaningless, and everyone bots like crazy as I imagine they will do over time, the only thing that will happen is we burn electricity to run the bots to keep up with the rest - CCP should just in that case make everything isk free and claim at least that way claim they have gone green because they care about the environment Problem solved! TADAAAA, only ofc Tranq would become SISI and noone would play....
Fulbert Gallente	Posted - 2011.02.22 23:22:00 - [1158] Edited by: Fulbert on 22/02/2011 23:23:02 Edited by: Fulbert on 22/02/2011 23:22:20 Originally by: Dirk Decibel Also:RMT will always exist. I'm not even against RMT, PLEX is RMT too. It's the automated generation of isk/assets that miffs me off since no legit player can ever compete against a bot. RMT is a harmful issue by itself, since it can destroy the game. If RMT is too frequent, CCP can be prosecuted in some countries for different reasons (fiscal fraud, illegal gambling, illegal banking activity...). Trading ISK's is an irregular financial activity, and nowadays you can't do anything you want with money. But you're 100% true : RMT is fueling bots. No RMT, no goldfarming. But real players would still bot if RMT was destroyed. -------------------------------- Fulbert. Miner - Industrialist
Rent Buzzline	Posted - 2011.02.23 00:06:00 - [1159] Edited by: Rent Buzzline on 23/02/2011 00:07:23 Originally by: Dirk Decibel I'm not even against RMT, PLEX is RMT too. It's the automated generation of isk/assets that miffs me off since no legit player can ever compete against a bot. QFT
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.23 03:25:00 - [1160] Well, only 3 posts were deleted. That's not too bad. Still no actual meaningful replies from the powers that be. Imagine that.

Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.23 04:14:00 - [1161] Yeah, plex and RMT arent two different issues lol ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Kern Hotha	Posted - 2011.02.23 04:50:00 - [1162] Edited by: Kern Hotha on 23/02/2011 04:51:46 CCP will never do anything about this. It would reduce the important PCU statistic. So the game will remain infested with bots making a mockery of the economy. ---
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.02.23 05:03:00 - [1163] I'm considering putting toghether a squad whos entire purpose is to do nothing other then set up drag bubbles at every single belt in Stain, effectively locking down an entire region from botters. If you don't know, Drag bubble > bots
Captain Mung	Posted - 2011.02.23 05:20:00 - [1164] Edited by: Captain Mung on 23/02/2011 05:22:01 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 22/02/2011 18:48:49 Originally by: Von Hinten Did that, got answer telling me that thex have not the ressources to investigate. gave them 300 botters + links to sites where corps adtvertises for bot freindly 0.0. oh, and if you post name of botters you will get banned for harrassment, sad, but true. Is it funny that its more of a violation of the game to post their names than it is to bot? Also, is it not funny that the company that RUNS THE GAME doesnt "have the resources" to combat these guys? BUT WE ARE GETTING **ING SUPER BALL SUCKINGLY AWESOME COOL AVATARS AND WALKING IN STATIONS GUYZ LOLZ. WHO CARES ABOUT BOTS... WE GET TO WALK IN STATIONS. I wonder how long after the Incarna ****ed-ness we will get bots walking around in stations...
Vicious Cell Amarr Black Dragon Crime Syndicate	Posted - 2011.02.23 06:44:00 - [1165] Originally by: Kuronaga I'm considering putting toghether a squad whos entire purpose is to do nothing other then set up drag bubbles at every single belt in Stain, effectively locking down an entire region from botters. If you don't know, Drag bubble > bots Omg. I would love to see that happening.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.02.23 06:54:00 - [1166] Originally by: Vicious Cell Originally by: Kuronaga I'm considering putting toghether a squad whos entire purpose is to do nothing other then set up drag bubbles at every single belt in Stain, effectively locking down an entire region from botters. If you don't know, Drag bubble > bots Omg. I would love to see that happening. That wouldn't stop them, as they just make BM's 50km above each belt - which is what the smart ones do anyways, as it makes it harder to tackle one when scanning its belt and warping to it.
Kacer Xenro Swords Horses and Heavy Metal	Posted - 2011.02.23 09:11:00 - [1167] the only solution to this is to ban the ****ers and install a Warden-like software. Making Plex's more expensive would just make everyone use bots, lowering the plex price would make everyone RMT.
Kan'Tor	Posted - 2011.02.23 11:55:00 - [1168] Very much looking forward to EN24's next article on this issue, as is ccp's lack of response so far is not unlike there response to :18 months: .. And as to those wondering how hard it is to find these ***** site's just type into your preferred search engine: Eve online *****, I was more surprised by the sheer amount of site's offering illicit service's than anything else. Also, as to "unholy rage", was it really "unholy rage" or really just "Damp squib" and a 3 day ban?
betty drunkenlord	Posted - 2011.02.23 11:57:00 - [1169] Keep it up Riverini. We need to keep topic alive for CCP to actively advance with unholy rage 2.0. Bots make so much harm to many professions and 0.0 grunts that botting needs to be nerfed to unsustainable level.
Acac Sunflyier Gallente Ketsui ga Katai	Posted - 2011.02.23 11:59:00 - [1170] You know, I really haven't been affected by boting too much. Yeah it keeps the price down but that's a good thing really. Cheaper ships, ammo, and moduels. To be honest, and this is going to make me sound kinda like a botter but who cares, the only people who are in an uproar about botters are people who just want more isk in their pocket and are being greedy. I mean it really isn't as if there are that many in proportion to the total population.

Ozwald Rens	Posted - 2011.02.23 12:43:00 - [1171] 1) From a technical point of view, it should be very easy to actually detect bots. (online time, # of players in local, behaviour if somebody warps in, etc) Of course, botters, would try and adjust, however, it's much easier to adjust for CCP as they are sitting on all the data 2) It should also be easy to detect associated accounts 3) 3 day bans for caught botters? Give me a break. Anything less than a permaban is laughable. 4) There is a huge proof of concept that catching botters and RMT is not that hard. The large online poker sites have been doing it successfully for years and have consitently improved their technology with regards to it. 5) If the issue is not being credibly addressed, for me that is the number 1 reason to quit the game.
Ozwald Rens	Posted - 2011.02.23 12:45:00 - [1172] Originally by: Acac Sunflyier You know, I really haven't been affected by boting too much. Yeah it keeps the price down but that's a good thing really. Cheaper ships, ammo, and moduels. To be honest, and this is going to make me sound kinda like a botter but who cares, the only people who are in an uproar about botters are people who just want more isk in their pocket and are being greedy. I mean it really isn't as if there are that many in proportion to the total population. If the prices were the concern, CCP could just reduce the materials required for building ships & items while at the same time taking action against bots.
Mernek	Posted - 2011.02.23 12:48:00 - [1173] Originally by: Acac Sunflyier You know, I really haven't been affected by boting too much. Yeah it keeps the price down but that's a good thing really. Cheaper ships, ammo, and moduels. To be honest, and this is going to make me sound kinda like a botter but who cares, the only people who are in an uproar about botters are people who just want more isk in their pocket and are being greedy. I mean it really isn't as if there are that many in proportion to the total population. In the long run it should not make a difference
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.23 13:06:00 - [1174] Reading the posts above I have some comments. As to limit the amount of PLEX per computer. That is just silly either remove the PLEX completely OR Keep it without silly limitations. No matter how hard you try there is a way around the IP [most botters use proxy services anyhow and they are quite smart about it] You can even go as far as to run virtual machines to run the bots and similar craziness. Only solution that would work [not prefectly but it would] is to introduce punkbuster typ of software That would have to run with each instance of the client. Added Checksum protection check if the protection software has not been altered that is checked upon each login is also possible. Activity logs red flagging for excessive 7 hour + stretches of online time maybe a popup after tha time with loggin off if not reacted upon. Redflagged account currrency transaction tracked down and accounts that bought isk banned as well. And most importantly acting upon the reports and permabanning of accounts that would help. I would support removing of PLEX all together btw but there is a lot of legitimate player that use those. Pod
Don Kartel	Posted - 2011.02.23 13:15:00 - [1175] Just prevent eve running on VMWARE workstation and that will kill off half the botters
gfldex	Posted - 2011.02.23 14:12:00 - [1176] Originally by: Don Kartel Just prevent eve running on VMWARE workstation and that will kill off half the botters If one is able to write a sofisticated bot there is no way to stop him from removing any form of DRM from the client. DRM has not and never will have any effect on the bad boys. All you will do is drive legit players out of the game.
k Rose BOOM BOOM POW	Posted - 2011.02.23 14:16:00 - [1177] I laughed out loud at idiots SIGNED FOR POSTING IN A PATHETIC THREAD --------------------------- All those interested please contact us in game We shoot poop! To enable image please go into your setting and check the box show images!
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.23 14:17:00 - [1178] Originally by: Kuronaga I'm considering putting toghether a squad whos entire purpose is to do nothing other then set up drag bubbles at every single belt in Stain, effectively locking down an entire region from botters. If you don't know, Drag bubble > bots The GMs would go in and take them out and say its to reduce lag. ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
sableye principle of motion	Posted - 2011.02.23 14:36:00 - [1179] I do hope they get rid of the bots I seen them all over epsiallyt hem courier bots fleets of entire bestowers ect doing courie rmissiosn 23/7. if they don;t get rid of them they shoudl legalize them for everyone, this is not my preferred osulition but they should just admit they don;t want to bad them and let us all use them if thats hwo they feel. ----------------------------------------- View The North Star! In All Its Glory!!
bustergonads	Posted - 2011.02.23 14:54:00 - [1180] Originally by: sableye if they don;t get rid of them they shoudl legalize them for everyone, By only handing out three day bans they more or less have.

Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.23 15:03:00 - [1181] Originally by: bustergonads Originally by: sableye if they don;t get rid of them they shoudl legalize them for everyone, By only handing out three day bans they more or less have. Not 3 day bans, 1 day bans.
Fengbao Jiuyue	Posted - 2011.02.23 15:12:00 - [1182] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Originally by: bustergonads Originally by: sableye if they don;t get rid of them they shoudl legalize them for everyone, By only handing out three day bans they more or less have. Not 3 day bans, 1 day bans. Don't see how this benefits CCP If we all start paying the innerspace guys with our 20$ and pay for Eve with isk.
Pr0m Queen	Posted - 2011.02.23 15:15:00 - [1183] rofl guys, don't you understand the real problem? riverini and Majesta Empire are a part of Northern Coalition, this whole deal was brought to you by his site that was already mentioned here, and it all is, in fact, part of media campaign against Drone Region Russian Forces that are currently at war with NC that lasts since dawn of times I might add. Ammount of bots in EVE is annoying, true, but blaming just one party for bot usage is plain idiocy. Whole NC territory is one big blue napfest ideal for botters - why not look there? why not ask some particular individuals, how come they know so much about botting in the fisrt place? nah, that needs too much brain power from your common Joe. In the end it's all just dirty politics and dirty media war tricks EN24 series of articles about RMT is just boiling with hate against russians, while you can't beat them on battlefield or outsmart them or beat their famous tenacity, you decide to make them evil for the rest of EVE community? As for people making a lot of isks daily - I can, if I want or need to, farm few billions in a week just by runnig anomalies using my 4 accounts, of course I do it completely manually by myself, using one marauder, carrier and two battleships to simultaneously do two sanctums and two havens. and farming with stuff like motherships will give you even more. in fact, when i actively farm i can make around 300-500kk isk a day, why would anyone need to use bots when you can have this income? to deal with RMT problem, CCP should start acting against ISK buyers more than against botters, because it's the demand that creates the offer in this case. It's not really cause of bots, I guess bots were created to speed up ISK generation for the GROWING DEMAND of the RMT market. Make no mistake, it's not botters who's creating this problem, it's lazy players who find it easier to buy isk than to farm for it. And if not for PLEX being sold officially, this market would be even bigger, because then all the people who try to fund their EVE adventures by selling PLEXes would just turn to illegal isk sellers. What CCP can also do is to lower PLEX prices a bit, mybe make them 15 days instead of 30 to add more options for people with limited funds that would otherwise (instead of buying PLEX) spend their limited funds on illegal isk. It's just basic economy rules - supply and demand, and I think this is why CCP can't really take any action in current situation. I mean they can do something that would damage EVE greatly or even completely change it, but that would be too much. And there's no way some small simple half-measures can deal with this RMT problem. So guys, just let CCP do their job and just be happy about that you play in one of most awesome and original MMOs ever created.
Grey Stormshadow	Posted - 2011.02.23 15:58:00 - [1184] Originally by: Pr0m Queen rofl guys, don't you understand the real problem? riverini and Majesta Empire are a part of Northern Coalition, this whole deal was brought to you by his site that was already mentioned here, and it all is, in fact, part of media campaign against Drone Region Russian Forces that are currently at war with NC that lasts since dawn of times I might add. Ammount of bots in EVE is annoying, true, but blaming just one party for bot usage is plain idiocy. Whole NC territory is one big blue napfest ideal for botters - why not look there? why not ask some particular individuals, how come they know so much about botting in the fisrt place? nah, that needs too much brain power from your common Joe. In the end it's all just dirty politics and dirty media war tricks EN24 series of articles about RMT is just boiling with hate against russians, while you can't beat them on battlefield or outsmart them or beat their famous tenacity, you decide to make them evil for the rest of EVE community? As for people making a lot of isks daily - I can, if I want or need to, farm few billions in a week just by runnig anomalies using my 4 accounts, of course I do it completely manually by myself, using one marauder, carrier and two battleships to simultaneously do two sanctums and two havens. and farming with stuff like motherships will give you even more. in fact, when i actively farm i can make around 300-500kk isk a day, why would anyone need to use bots when you can have this income? to deal with RMT problem, CCP should start acting against ISK buyers more than against botters, because it's the demand that creates the offer in this case. It's not really cause of bots, I guess bots were created to speed up ISK generation for the GROWING DEMAND of the RMT market. Make no mistake, it's not botters who's creating this problem, it's lazy players who find it easier to buy isk than to farm for it. And if not for PLEX being sold officially, this market would be even bigger, because then all the people who try to fund their EVE adventures by selling PLEXes would just turn to illegal isk sellers. What CCP can also do is to lower PLEX prices a bit, mybe make them 15 days instead of 30 to add more options for people with limited funds that would otherwise (instead of buying PLEX) spend their limited funds on illegal isk. It's just basic economy rules - supply and demand, and I think this is why CCP can't really take any action in current situation. I mean they can do something that would damage EVE greatly or even completely change it, but that would be too much. And there's no way some small simple half-measures can deal with this RMT problem. So guys, just let CCP do their job and just be happy about that you play in one of most awesome and original MMOs ever created. No offence but after reading this I clearly see that you haven't read even small parts of the posts in this thread. The botting is problem of entire 0.0 region. If there have been posts where someone points finger only to Russians, they surely aren't in line with the majority of posts in this thread. Also it is really interesting way to assume that removing main isk source from isk sellers wouldn't seriously cut down the available isk in RMT market. Instead you offer solution where bots should not be touched and PLEX prices should be lowered even more. Funny part is that bots are the ones that make plex prices go up. I'm sorry but after reading all posts in this thread I've come to conclusion that anyone who is not willing to get permanetly rid of the bots is either botter or in a position which gets some kind of benefits from people who use bots. This is of course my personal opinnion and can be flawed. However before judging and throwing me to wolves, make sure you have read the entire thread and made true opinnion of your own.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.23 16:15:00 - [1185] Originally by: Fengbao Jiuyue Originally by: Jack Gilligan Originally by: bustergonads Originally by: sableye if they don;t get rid of them they shoudl legalize them for everyone, By only handing out three day bans they more or less have. Not 3 day bans, 1 day bans. Don't see how this benefits CCP If we all start paying the innerspace guys with our 20$ and pay for Eve with isk. Irony: You are a lot more likely to be banned for making a statement like that than you would if you ran 10 bots and had people petition you.
Vonlutt Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.23 16:42:00 - [1186] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Originally by: Pr0m Queen rofl guys, don't you understand the real problem? riverini and Majesta Empire are a part of Northern Coalition, this whole deal was brought to you by his site that was already mentioned here, and it all is, in fact, part of media campaign against Drone Region Russian Forces that are currently at war with NC that lasts since dawn of times I might add. Ammount of bots in EVE is annoying, true, but blaming just one party for bot usage is plain idiocy. Whole NC territory is one big blue napfest ideal for botters - why not look there? why not ask some particular individuals, how come they know so much about botting in the fisrt place? nah, that needs too much brain power from your common Joe. In the end it's all just dirty politics and dirty media war tricks EN24 series of articles about RMT is just boiling with hate against russians, while you can't beat them on battlefield or outsmart them or beat their famous tenacity, you decide to make them evil for the rest of EVE community? As for people making a lot of isks daily - I can, if I want or need to, farm few billions in a week just by runnig anomalies using my 4 accounts, of course I do it completely manually by myself, using one marauder, carrier and two battleships to simultaneously do two sanctums and two havens. and farming with stuff like motherships will give you even more. in fact, when i actively farm i can make around 300-500kk isk a day, why would anyone need to use bots when you can have this income? to deal with RMT problem, CCP should start acting against ISK buyers more than against botters, because it's the demand that creates the offer in this case. It's not really cause of bots, I guess bots were created to speed up ISK generation for the GROWING DEMAND of the RMT market. Make no mistake, it's not botters who's creating this problem, it's lazy players who find it easier to buy isk than to farm for it. And if not for PLEX being sold officially, this market would be even bigger, because then all the people who try to fund their EVE adventures by selling PLEXes would just turn to illegal isk sellers. What CCP can also do is to lower PLEX prices a bit, mybe make them 15 days instead of 30 to add more options for people with limited funds that would otherwise (instead of buying PLEX) spend their limited funds on illegal isk. It's just basic economy rules - supply and demand, and I think this is why CCP can't really take any action in current situation. I mean they can do something that would damage EVE greatly or even completely change it, but that would be too much. And there's no way some small simple half-measures can deal with this RMT problem. So guys, just let CCP do their job and just be happy about that you play in one of most awesome and original MMOs ever created. No offence but after reading this I clearly see that you haven't read even small parts of the posts in this thread. The botting is problem of entire 0.0 region. If there have been posts where someone points finger only to Russians, they surely aren't in line with the majority of posts in this thread. Also it is really interesting way to assume that removing main isk source from isk sellers wouldn't seriously cut down the available isk in RMT market. Instead you offer solution where bots should not be touched and PLEX prices should be lowered even more. Funny part is that bots are the ones that make plex prices go up. I'm sorry but after reading all posts in this thread I've come to conclusion that anyone who is not willing to get permanetly rid of the bots is either botter or in a position which gets some kind of benefits from people who use bots. This is of course my personal opinnion and can be flawed. However before judging and throwing me to wolves, make sure you have read the entire thread and made true opinnion of your own. Confirming Pr0m Queen is a Mad Russian Bot. !
Er Ego	Posted - 2011.02.23 17:12:00 - [1187] I'd say don't ban the botters. Simply reset their skillpoints to starting levels, and strip them of all assets except 5000 isk, a noobship and 1 trit. Much more of a kick in the teeth that way.
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.02.23 17:37:00 - [1188] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Vicious Cell Originally by: Kuronaga I'm considering putting toghether a squad whos entire purpose is to do nothing other then set up drag bubbles at every single belt in Stain, effectively locking down an entire region from botters. If you don't know, Drag bubble > bots Omg. I would love to see that happening. That wouldn't stop them, as they just make BM's 50km above each belt - which is what the smart ones do anyways, as it makes it harder to tackle one when scanning its belt and warping to it. Good point. Very well then, three bubbles per belt.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.23 18:10:00 - [1189] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 23/02/2011 18:11:16 Originally by: Pr0m Queen rofl guys, don't you understand the real problem? riverini and Majesta Empire are a part of Northern Coalition, this whole deal was brought to you by his site that was already mentioned here, and it all is, in fact, part of media campaign against Drone Region Russian Forces that are currently at war with NC that lasts since dawn of times I might add. so if we remove the bots itlll hurt them? So yer saying they are massively running bot farms then? Isnt that illegal? Originally by: Er Ego I'd say don't ban the botters. Simply reset their skillpoints to starting levels, and strip them of all assets except 5000 isk, a noobship and 1 trit. Much more of a kick in the teeth that way. yeah, every month ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
gfldex	Posted - 2011.02.23 22:58:00 - [1190] It's a bit sad: Originally by: blizzard We recently issued a new round of account suspensions and bans to StarCraft II players who were in violation of the Battle.net Terms of Use for cheating and/or using hack programs while playing. In addition to undermining the spirit of fair competition thatÆs essential to play on Battle.net, cheating and hacking can lead to stability and performance issues with the service. As always, maintaining a stable, safe, and secure online-gaming experience for legitimate players is a top priority for us, and we'll be continuing to keep watch on Battle.net and take action as needed.

Saand Dra	Posted - 2011.02.24 00:32:00 - [1191] Thread signed. I hate cheaters.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.02.24 00:47:00 - [1192] Originally by: gfldex It's a bit sad: Originally by: blizzard We recently issued a new round of account suspensions and bans to StarCraft II players who were in violation of the Battle.net Terms of Use for cheating and/or using hack programs while playing. In addition to undermining the spirit of fair competition thatÆs essential to play on Battle.net, cheating and hacking can lead to stability and performance issues with the service. As always, maintaining a stable, safe, and secure online-gaming experience for legitimate players is a top priority for us, and we'll be continuing to keep watch on Battle.net and take action as needed. Why sad? There's someone who cares of reducing bots, it's just not the company you pay to. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
foxnod Brotherhood of the Coast	Posted - 2011.02.24 02:28:00 - [1193] I think it's funny how people think you can just wardec the bot corps. I just wardeced 2 of them today and one of them closed it's doors less than 2hrs. later. The other one.....we'll see how long before they all drop corp for the security blanket of the npc corp.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.02.24 02:38:00 - [1194] let me start with i DONT bot. but i also dont really care that others do.... my reasoning for this is: 1. people talk about how "they ruin the game" .. but how? answer: they make mining less profitable? sure, but to me an activity which takes zero talent and can be performed whilst watching the latest Sasha Grey flick ought to yield less profit than everything else. further, if supply went down as much as it would after a BOT slaughter, yes the price of minerals would go up. So, it may appear that miners would finally make real isk... but there is further cause and effect to be considered here. Namely, who is going to buy your minerals now that they can't be used to make a profit? That is until the cost of everything else goes up to match. But then the next issue will become that people wont be able to afford as much end product and thus the demand for everything will go down. hi-sec pvp will come to a screeching halt, and while the manufacturers are making a profit on individual items, they aren't moving near the volume they did before, resulting in a net loss of total income. which would even be true for the miners - they are making more, but can afford less. so whats the point? with that said unless you NEVER buy ANYTHING from the market, or have decided that you will only pay 5x the average cost for any given item, then you have made isk from the bots - either by having saved isk on things you purchase, or by the fact that your product sells as much as it does. The real problem to me is that CCP shouldn't have allowed it to get to the point. at this point i think the game would actually be WORSE off if we got rid of them. 2. bubbles on the gates and at every belt would accomplish nothing: instead of warping to the warp-in point, they would warp directly to a bookmarked roid. so unless you covered every roid in every belt they would just adjust their bookmarks. and if you did manage to drop those thousands of bubbles, they would simply be popped. 3. making bots not run in VMWare or adding DRM or blablabla to make the programs not work wont accomplish anything either. the app writers will ALWAYS find a way around it. if a person can play the game, then so can a BOT. period. all you would be accomplishing is making the game annoying for the rest of us. even spyware like what blizzard uses is useless - the RMT guys still use bots. 4. PLEX is about the only good combat against RMT. as the ISK value of plex goes up, the $ value of ISK goes down. that was an awesome idea on the part of CCP. but that will still never stop botters, b/c individuals would still do it for ISK. all I'm trying to say is that bots are already integral to our eve experience and can't be gotten rid of. so why care?..
Angel of Night	Posted - 2011.02.24 02:57:00 - [1195] Originally by: Arnakoz all I'm trying to say is that bots are already integral to our eve experience and can't be gotten rid of. so why care?.. Really simple and short answer is 'better overall pvp balance, more interesting and appealing 0.0 space, more active community'.
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.02.24 04:11:00 - [1196] Originally by: Arnakoz let me start with i DONT bot. but i also dont really care that others do.... my reasoning for this is: 1. people talk about how "they ruin the game" .. but how? answer: they make mining less profitable? sure, but to me an activity which takes zero talent and can be performed whilst watching the latest Sasha Grey flick ought to yield less profit than everything else. further, if supply went down as much as it would after a BOT slaughter, yes the price of minerals would go up. So, it may appear that miners would finally make real isk... but there is further cause and effect to be considered here. Namely, who is going to buy your minerals now that they can't be used to make a profit? That is until the cost of everything else goes up to match. But then the next issue will become that people wont be able to afford as much end product and thus the demand for everything will go down. hi-sec pvp will come to a screeching halt, and while the manufacturers are making a profit on individual items, they aren't moving near the volume they did before, resulting in a net loss of total income. which would even be true for the miners - they are making more, but can afford less. so whats the point? with that said unless you NEVER buy ANYTHING from the market, or have decided that you will only pay 5x the average cost for any given item, then you have made isk from the bots - either by having saved isk on things you purchase, or by the fact that your product sells as much as it does. The real problem to me is that CCP shouldn't have allowed it to get to the point. at this point i think the game would actually be WORSE off if we got rid of them. 2. bubbles on the gates and at every belt would accomplish nothing: instead of warping to the warp-in point, they would warp directly to a bookmarked roid. so unless you covered every roid in every belt they would just adjust their bookmarks. and if you did manage to drop those thousands of bubbles, they would simply be popped. 3. making bots not run in VMWare or adding DRM or blablabla to make the programs not work wont accomplish anything either. the app writers will ALWAYS find a way around it. if a person can play the game, then so can a BOT. period. all you would be accomplishing is making the game annoying for the rest of us. even spyware like what blizzard uses is useless - the RMT guys still use bots. 4. PLEX is about the only good combat against RMT. as the ISK value of plex goes up, the $ value of ISK goes down. that was an awesome idea on the part of CCP. but that will still never stop botters, b/c individuals would still do it for ISK. all I'm trying to say is that bots are already integral to our eve experience and can't be gotten rid of. so why care?.. If you are a new alliance that doesn't bot, you have no chance against an old alliance that does bot (hint: every major power bots). It wouldn't even matter if you matched them in funds, skillpoints, and playerbase -- they would win the war of attrition every time. In short, it sabotages Eve completely.
Apollo Gabriel Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2011.02.24 04:17:00 - [1197] Originally by: Pr0m Queen rofl guys, don't you understand the real problem? Lol, thanks for confirming that we don't pick prom queens for their brains. It would be hard for you to sound less informed on the thread. *** Signature may appear without warning! *** Please do not feed the trolls, it builds dependency.
Apollo Gabriel Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2011.02.24 04:22:00 - [1198] Originally by: gfldex It's a bit sad: \begin{sarcasm} No don't you get it, doing so would start an arms race! We can't tell you what we do, because they will learn and get better, we must work secretly with updates every 3 years or they win! We must keep the revenue coming in or we'll be dust, er not finish dust, we must, we must, we must increase our bust! \end{sarcasm} ok even I admit I fell apart at the end, felt like Glenn Beck for a minute. *** Signature may appear without warning! *** Please do not feed the trolls, it builds dependency.
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.24 05:05:00 - [1199] Edited by: Richard Aiel on 24/02/2011 05:07:48 Originally by: Arnakoz all I'm trying to say is that bots are already integral to our eve experience and can't be gotten rid of. so why care?.. Spend much time in 0.0? Short answer: 20 titans in one fight and 100 plus supercaps. Titans used to be hard to get. Five was a major achievement I have an idea for the eve24 guys. Make a page that goes with the page where you can report bots. The page takes each unique bot name and counts it. Basically, something to start counting the numbers of these things. If the number hit in the 50 to 100 thousand range, that would be a significant and SHOULD open more than a few eyes lol ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
Taranxar Thrax	Posted - 2011.02.24 06:47:00 - [1200] agreed

Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.24 07:00:00 - [1201] Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 24/02/2011 07:05:13 I'll make a few suggestions on how to deal with this problem. Of course this post will be overlooked. ;) Add a 'not PLEX eligible' flag to bot accounts. They must be paid with hard cash. Instead of banning bot accounts in any way you should cancel all game time (forfeit due to EULA violation), basicly putting the account into 'unpaid' status that can only be revoked by paying real money. Some measure to freeze or damage their wallet/assets would also be reasonable, since those assets and ISK were aquired by illegal means. Finally, delay people showing up in local or get rid of it alltogether: You only see who's there if you scan them down, they talk or you see them visually. You should do this to ALL accounts a botter has, regardless of which one is a bot. Punish the player, not one account. Other MMO providers realized the need of this many years ago.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.24 07:04:00 - [1202] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa delay people showing up in local or get rid of it alltogether: You only see who's there if you scan them down, they talk or you see them visually. yeaaaaaa that wouldnt help pirates or those guys that wardec to grief at all ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.24 07:07:00 - [1203] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa delay people showing up in local or get rid of it alltogether: You only see who's there if you scan them down, they talk or you see them visually. yeaaaaaa that wouldnt help pirates or those guys that wardec to grief at all I don't care who it helps. It's bull**** in the first place. Which kind of magic makes people appear in local if they want or not? Especially in 0.0. It's some Concord magic? Nope, it's BS. Certainly that will change a lot.. for the better.
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.24 07:14:00 - [1204] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa I don't care who it helps. If I was smart, I would have stopped reading here. Quote: It's bull**** in the first place. Which kind of magic makes people appear in local if they want or not? Especially in 0.0. It's some Concord magic? Nope, it's BS. The same internet spaceship magic that allows you to create cap from thin air with a ETA. That doesn't allow capitals to use gates. That, I dunno, powers the whole game.
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.24 07:37:00 - [1205] Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 24/02/2011 07:40:18 Originally by: Target Painter If I was smart, I would have stopped reading here. Shame on you. Originally by: Target Painter The same internet spaceship magic that allows you to create cap from thin air with a ETA. That doesn't allow capitals to use gates. That, I dunno, powers the whole game. I don't think it quite compares. Knowing something you cannot know is different to amplifying Cap transfer slightly or capitals being too large and massive to use jumpgates. There might also be some magic involved, but it's T1 magic at best. The local thing is T3 magic. #Edit: It will be really difficult to explain how local works in game terms. Concord prohibits meddling with your ships transponder or IFF system that sends a solar system wide beacon so everyone knows you're there? Quite weak but the best I can think of.
bustergonads	Posted - 2011.02.24 08:58:00 - [1206] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Add a 'not PLEX eligible' flag to bot accounts. They must be paid with hard cash. Which would do nothing, they would just use stolen credit card details like they have in other games for years. (not difficult to find online) Just ban the bastards and get it over and done with.
Jasper Dark	Posted - 2011.02.24 09:43:00 - [1207] Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:44:28 Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:43:19 Many problems can be fixed by one move, forcing players to join/create player corporations. This won't stop botting in 0.0. But most likely stop botting in empire. Limiting access to NPC corps to only lvl1 agents. Oh the horrors that will cause!!! EDIT: Or raise NPC tax when wunnign higher lvl agents and quality.
bustergonads	Posted - 2011.02.24 10:06:00 - [1208] Originally by: Jasper Dark Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:44:28 Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:43:19 Many problems can be fixed by one move, forcing players to join/create player corporations. In theory this should work, however when you try to war dec these corps you find they just bail from the corp and join/set up another.
Roman Clevik	Posted - 2011.02.24 10:45:00 - [1209] Edited by: Roman Clevik on 24/02/2011 10:47:24 Hi, after a chat with a TEST member, it is clear that botting in enforced and a well known practice in TEST alliance ... someone will say "hey, nothing new under the sun" ... but it is still worth posting as CCP continue to hide itself and do absolutely nothing: (before the ccp censorship: I do have written confirm that the TEST dude Draco Interfector allows me to post this logs) --- Draco Interfector: I guess, I was hoping to rat unfortunately, I guess you probably don't want to move to sit in a different system Roman Clevik: rat free ... I don't care Draco Interfector: 7-8 has a lot of botters who would love your compant, haha Draco Interfector: I can't bring myself to rat with a character who has a lot of hotdrop kills on his KB Roman Clevik: I do ? Draco Interfector: ya Draco Interfector: well, your corp does, not you particularly Roman Clevik: well ... you have my word i will not attack you Roman Clevik: 7-8 you say there are botters ? Draco Interfector: this is eve, words don't mean much Roman Clevik: it depends from person to person Draco Interfector: yeah, there is a goon dude, he sperged at me whe nI tried to rat there Draco Interfector: threatened to awox me and fill the system with bots to out rat me Roman Clevik: kill him ... or petition him ... no ? Draco Interfector: I don't petition blues, nor do I kill blues, would be kicked Roman Clevik: lol this is pretty ** ... botters should die Draco Interfector: if I had a neut alt I'd prob go sit it in there just to mess with him, haha Roman Clevik: with a blu standing it could be much easier :P Draco Interfector: what do you mean Roman Clevik: if you are blue to a bot it's easier to kill him Draco Interfector: I can't kill him, I would be kicked from alliance Roman Clevik: cannot believe TEST sill kick you if you kill a bot Roman Clevik: they should give you a prize and kick him next Draco Interfector: they would, especially since it is a goon pilot Draco Interfector: goons allow botting** Roman Clevik: too bad Roman Clevik: do you mind if I repost this ? Draco Interfector: repost what? Roman Clevik: post Draco Interfector: where? Roman Clevik: kugu Draco Interfector: and it's not that they allow it, they just don't police it, they say it is CCP's job Draco Interfector: which kind of makes sense Roman Clevik: but they will kick you ... sounds like more than allowing it Roman Clevik: it's like enforcing and protecting it Draco Interfector: I don't make the rules Draco Interfector: I rather you not use my name if you post it on kugu Draco Interfector: everyone pretty much knows that is goon policy though* Roman Clevik: yep will not Draco Interfector: especially on kugu Roman Clevik: if you pay me 100mil isks I will not ... for 500mil will not post it either Draco Interfector: haha, I don't really care, I am sure it is public on goon forums anyways Roman Clevik: fff Roman Clevik: :D Roman Clevik: tried Draco Interfector: if you think that is news, you are pretty badly informed, haha
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.02.24 10:45:00 - [1210] Originally by: Jasper Dark Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:44:28 Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:43:19 Many problems can be fixed by one move, forcing players to join/create player corporations. This won't stop botting in 0.0. But most likely stop botting in empire. Limiting access to NPC corps to only lvl1 agents. Oh the horrors that will cause!!! EDIT: Or raise NPC tax when wunnign higher lvl agents and quality. How about we eliminate space holding sovereignty that allows these bots to own space, rent space, etc and be hidden from all but their 'allies'? Nerf moons once and for all, same to 00 rat bounty, and chaining. Or CCP could not take the easy lazy route of doing 'nothing' like they do now or either of our simple solutions and try several of the other solutions presented throughout this thread that actually seek to make botting less profitable, PVE more interactive along with securing their client, etc. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--

Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.24 11:05:00 - [1211] Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 21/02/2011 20:11:34 Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 21/02/2011 19:48:38 Originally by: Consortium Agent So, instead of simply complaining about the problem, I suggest we take action. Hence why I wrote reportbots.com. Wouldnt it be ironic as hell if you got banned for interrupting gameplay or something stupid like that? Yes, quite :P lol.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.24 11:15:00 - [1212] Originally by: Roman Clevik Hi, after a chat with a TEST member, ... (before the ccp censorship: I do have written confirm that the TEST dude Draco Interfector allows me to post this logs) Roman Clevik: do you mind if I repost this ? .. Draco Interfector: where? Roman Clevik: kugu .. Draco Interfector: I rather you not use my name if you post it on kugu Posting his name on kugu is a no-no. But here's fine, lol. I guess TEST don't read this forum. Anyway, interesting convo.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.24 11:19:00 - [1213] Originally by: Umega Originally by: Von Hinten Funny: Flood CCP with legit petitions first off. Secondly, if I knew how.. I'd make a site. Solely dedicated to plastering the names of suspected and confirmed macros for all to see.. and the main characters that control them. Lets expose who is doing what.. Expose which of the major alliances, and just how much they are using bots to fuel their war machines. Smear them through the mud.. its drama.. drama creates interest, interest that note-worthy blogs and interweb articles pick up on and report. Then.. Page 35 of this thread details a website specifically for the purposes you mentioned... I knew how and had the same thought a couple months ago :) http://www.reportbots.com/ Still a work in progress, but the core functionality (reporting bot, creating CCP petition text, and viewing reported bots) is working and solid.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.02.24 11:34:00 - [1214] Originally by: Consortium Agent Originally by: Umega Page 35 of this thread details a website specifically for the purposes you mentioned... I knew how and had the same thought a couple months ago :) http://www.reportbots.com/ Still a work in progress, but the core functionality (reporting bot, creating CCP petition text, and viewing reported bots) is working and solid. Nothing like a bit of evolutionary pressure to make hard-to-detect bots evolve even faster?
Knoops Sonnenlegion Smacked Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.24 11:37:00 - [1215] i support this!
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.24 11:45:00 - [1216] Originally by: Richard Aiel I have an idea for the eve24 guys. Make a page that goes with the page where you can report bots. The page takes each unique bot name and counts it. Basically, something to start counting the numbers of these things. If the number hit in the 50 to 100 thousand range, that would be a significant and SHOULD open more than a few eyes lol At the risk of being repetitive... http://www.reportbots.com/
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.24 11:48:00 - [1217] Originally by: Cyaxares II Originally by: Consortium Agent Originally by: Umega Page 35 of this thread details a website specifically for the purposes you mentioned... I knew how and had the same thought a couple months ago :) http://www.reportbots.com/ Still a work in progress, but the core functionality (reporting bot, creating CCP petition text, and viewing reported bots) is working and solid. Nothing like a bit of evolutionary pressure to make hard-to-detect bots evolve even faster? As mentioned here, there is no way an application could ever truly mimic human behavior - it will always have visibly repetitive patterns of behavior(s) that make them human and code detectable. Unfortunately, CCP refuses to implement the code detection, so we're left with human detection and reporting. In either case, no matter how a bot evolves it will always, always, always have repetitive patterns of behaviors. Always.
gfldex	Posted - 2011.02.24 12:40:00 - [1218] Originally by: Consortium Agent In either case, no matter how a bot evolves it will always, always, always have repetitive patterns of behaviors. Always. Very true _but_ the behaviour of humans will be repetitive as well because the game is forcing them to. There is no way around having GMs go around and try to spot bots. And that means there is a dedicated team of knowledgeable individuals needed. (Sadly my confidence in the GM team does not allow me to hope for much in that reguard. But then, it's not my problem to solve that.) Luckyly having your char banned is rather hurtful in EVE and thus banning players in a visible (!!!) fashion will scare most players of the cheater path. It doesn't even have to be a perma ban. If the leadership of an alliance is banned for 3 month they wont be the leadership anymore. Nonleaders will find their nice assets being locked in stations they can't dock at anymore. In contrast to most other MMOs where you can gain SP by hurting NPCs and thus the solution to getting banned for botting is more botting, in EVE a ban has a meaning. We can get rid of the waste majority of cheaters and hurt quite a lot of the RMTers. Ofc, I would prefere sov mechanics that allow the player base to deal with afk alliances but for some strange reason I believe that we would wait for another 3 years to see any improvements in that field. Having 3 GMs trying to cover all TZs and lurk around for bot-banning targets is something that can be done _right_away_ and would require very little rage from the player base. And that's the shame. CCP could have dealt with the whole botting mess months ago. That they didn't is ... well, I can't describe what it is without dropping blunt insults on ppl that like to get drunk. So I wont. (kind of)
Jasper Dark	Posted - 2011.02.24 12:48:00 - [1219] Originally by: bustergonads Originally by: Jasper Dark Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:44:28 Edited by: Jasper Dark on 24/02/2011 09:43:19 Many problems can be fixed by one move, forcing players to join/create player corporations. In theory this should work, however when you try to war dec these corps you find they just bail from the corp and join/set up another. This is true, but CCP could force some other limits, like they have to pay a hefty fine to concord to leave the corp when a war dec is initiated. Plus isn't this a bannable offecnse too, to corp jump due to war decs?
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.02.24 13:00:00 - [1220] That would help as much against bots as database issues do: Sure it does something, but at least as much against normal players. And no corphopping is not an exploit since a wardec is against a corp, not against a player. If you cause with that wardec that everyones leaves the corp you succeeded in the wardec.

Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.02.24 13:04:00 - [1221] Originally by: Consortium Agent As mentioned here, there is no way an application could ever truly mimic human behavior - it will always have visibly repetitive patterns of behavior(s) that make them human and code detectable. Unfortunately, CCP refuses to implement the code detection, so we're left with human detection and reporting. In either case, no matter how a bot evolves it will always, always, always have repetitive patterns of behaviors. Always. that site basically lists some of the default settings for very simple bots and then goes on to say (paraphrased) "there is no sure-fire way to detect bots, you just have to watch them for a long time trying to detect some pattern, maybe try to provoke some unforeseen situations and generally rely on your intuition". Seeing how limited the communication between players in EVE is as long as they don't talk to each other (and many real people won't respond to random conversations or local), I don't see a compelling reason why bots should not be able to mimic human behavior really, really well. I am very certain that I could write e.g. a mining bot that avoids almost all give-away signs on that website and even writes the occasional "**** off" into local when you stay in its belt for too long and I am just a bored college student. The reason why bot writers (and I would expect major RMT outlets to use custom developed bots) don't bother with avoiding detection is because it would be unnecessary :effort: at this point and it would reduce the efficiency of the bot (stuff like taking bio breaks, moving around between systems, ...). Most bots are extremely primitive in their behavior because they can get away with being primitive not because it is impossible to build more advanced ones.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.02.24 13:15:00 - [1222] Originally by: Richard Aiel Edited by: Richard Aiel on 24/02/2011 05:07:48 Originally by: Arnakoz all I'm trying to say is that bots are already integral to our eve experience and can't be gotten rid of. so why care?.. Spend much time in 0.0? Short answer: 20 titans in one fight and 100 plus supercaps. Titans used to be hard to get. Five was a major achievement yes, actually. I went from being an atlas renter to the NC. PL is the bane of my existence at this point. but in the maybe ~25% of null that I've traveled through I haven't noticed bots. granted, i haven't spent a lot of time in russian space; which is, i guess, where most of it occurs. i do notice what i would guess to be bots in nearly every hisec system. but either way, i see your point.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.24 14:16:00 - [1223] Originally by: bustergonads Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Add a 'not PLEX eligible' flag to bot accounts. They must be paid with hard cash. Which would do nothing, they would just use stolen credit card details like they have in other games for years. (not difficult to find online) Just ban the bastards and get it over and done with. Unfortionately for new players this also leads to griefing and quitting the game due to pirate corps using the requirement to do this to get their rocks off. Also, where do the noobs start out? ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division	Posted - 2011.02.24 15:03:00 - [1224] Set a hard cap on noobcorp membership, once your account is 90 days old no toon can remain in one. If you don't leave it, on day 91 the game makes a 1 man player corp named for your character. If you leave a player corp after 90 days and don't apply to another player corp it does the same thing, drops you into your own player corp named after your character.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.24 15:16:00 - [1225] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Set a hard cap on noobcorp membership, once your account is 90 days old no toon can remain in one. If you don't leave it, on day 91 the game makes a 1 man player corp named for your character. If you leave a player corp after 90 days and don't apply to another player corp it does the same thing, drops you into your own player corp named after your character. This might do something to interrupt high sec macroers' activities, but would do nothing to address the issue of massive isk-harvesting out in 0.0. Even RMT doesn't affect the players all that much, it's the auto-acquired isk used against players that affects them the most.
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.02.24 16:01:00 - [1226] Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 24/02/2011 16:04:42 I've pretty much lost all hope that CCP is going to put any significant effort into resolving the issue of bots. They've ignored this thread for more than 2 months and let it grow to 41 pages, with a spin doc from a GM as the only response. They could have chosen to use the CSM summit as an outlet to give us some reason to believe that they do intend to do something, keeping actual intentions under NDA, but they choose to redact all of whatever conversation of botting took place. CCP Oveur or CCP Zulu could have tossed us a bone in this thread to tell us they see the situation as a problem, and that they will address it. Instead, they've chosen to contain the problem to this thread; the problem being us. I'm pretty sure that Eve has jumped the shark as a competitive sandbox game. For many, it's already devolved into arcade mode, where the largest assets are disposable and having a character with any skillset is only an auction away; all it takes to have anything is RL cash or a bot and a bit of secure space. Remembering the effort that ASCN and BoB put into building the 1st titans, and the impact those 1st shipyards had on the game, it's sad to see how trivial fielding the games greatest achievements has become. Sadder stillà if they ever did get rid of bots, it would cement the current power blocks in place, since new alliances would never be able to field enough firepower to challenge the assets of the current alliances. At this point, I guess I'll keep my afk camper doing her job of keeping one system safe from the scourge, invest the larger part of my reserves into commodities that'll give a nice return if bots are ever removed, and play out the plex I've have. (no stuffs for you, don't ask).
Rent Buzzline	Posted - 2011.02.24 17:25:00 - [1227] Edited by: Rent Buzzline on 24/02/2011 17:26:08 We are 84h away from the (IMO promising) launch of reportbots.com I urge everyone to make a sincere effort to use this tool. Not only will it shed some publicity on known botters (hell, some of the bots identified in the original evenews24.com article are already online again), it will also pressure CCP to take action. So... - use reportbots.com privately - advcate the use in your corp - advocate the use in your alliance And most importantly: Take a stand agains bots if you see them in your ranks. Humiliate them, Kill them, then kick and report them. It's never too late to get straight. Oh, and FWIW: I'm in no way affiliated with reportbots.com
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division	Posted - 2011.02.24 18:25:00 - [1228] Bots should be an exception in anyone's NBSI policy...
Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2011.02.24 18:31:00 - [1229] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 24/02/2011 18:32:48 Originally by: Rent Buzzline It's never too late to get straight. I don't think the majority of posters in this thread agrees with your opinion. Consensus seems to be that botters should get permabanned at first offense (instead of giving them temp bans of increasing duration) or that their skills and assets should be reset.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.24 19:07:00 - [1230] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 24/02/2011 18:32:48 Originally by: Rent Buzzline It's never too late to get straight. I don't think the majority of posters in this thread agrees with your opinion. Consensus seems to be that botters should get permabanned at first offense (instead of giving them temp bans of increasing duration) or that their skills and assets should be reset. I don't think it is actually. I for one would just like to see a documented "three strikes and you're out" policy. By that I mean that CCP produce rules that bind them and us. Yeah I know Fantasy Island stuff as CCP won't ever do that. Basically : You download and use a bot in clear breach of the rules : Offence #1 : 1 week ban Offence #2 : 1 month ban and isk confiscation; Offence #3 : permanent ban on all accounts you operate. Never ever ever going to happen AND be enforced so dream on boys and girls. CCP makes money from accounts involved in cheating, so they're not going to stop until the real players say ENOUGH! Not going to happen though, MMOs fade away rather than burn out :)

Sator Nyatt	Posted - 2011.02.24 22:10:00 - [1231] Couple things I've been reading this thread for a while now and i think it's really good that people continue to post in it, lots of different people continuing to post, and i think it shows a really wide ranging support for CCP doing something concrete against bots. I think that there has been an explosion with bots lately, they seem to be much more visible in the space i have been in. Maybe thats due to switching alliances, but since so many other people are starting to make noise, i suspect there's more and more of them around. I suspect many of them are 'Casual' botters, players who run 1, maybe 2 bots. These people can easily be encouraged to not bot anymore. The 'Bot Farms' should be able to be targeted by CCP through RMT tracking or whatever, the professional organisations. But the casual botters would be harder to track, widespread, the occasional account, whatever. If, however, CCP showed they were serious...actually whacked a few people, maybe punished their mains as well, many of these casual botters would stop. Most people who actually play the game and bot 'on the side' would shut down their bots in a heartbeat if they actually thought they'd get seriously hurt on their 'real' accounts. You'd probably knock out 30-50% of the bots operating there.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.25 00:56:00 - [1232] Originally by: Cyaxares II Originally by: Consortium Agent As mentioned here, there is no way an application could ever truly mimic human behavior - it will always have visibly repetitive patterns of behavior(s) that make them human and code detectable. Unfortunately, CCP refuses to implement the code detection, so we're left with human detection and reporting. In either case, no matter how a bot evolves it will always, always, always have repetitive patterns of behaviors. Always. that site basically lists some of the default settings for very simple bots and then goes on to say (paraphrased) "there is no sure-fire way to detect bots, you just have to watch them for a long time trying to detect some pattern, maybe try to provoke some unforeseen situations and generally rely on your intuition". That's quite the paraphrase, considering it doesn't really say that at all. Originally by: Cyaxares II I am very certain that I could write e.g. a mining bot that avoids almost all give-away signs on that website and even writes the occasional "**** off" into local when you stay in its belt for too long and I am just a bored college student. The reason why bot writers (and I would expect major RMT outlets to use custom developed bots) don't bother with avoiding detection is because it would be unnecessary :effort: at this point and it would reduce the efficiency of the bot (stuff like taking bio breaks, moving around between systems, ...). Most bots are extremely primitive in their behavior because they can get away with being primitive not because it is impossible to build more advanced ones. You seem to be arguing that bots could be better, but most are extremely primitive - and in the same breath you are attempting to slay reportbots.com for teaching how to locate these 'extremely primitive' bots. Is there a point here? If the majority of bots are extremely primitive (whatever the reason) then they are easy to detect and report on, correct? So you seem to have a contradictory fail argument. Reportbots.com isn't designed nor intended to be the cure all, be all, end all to the bot problem - it's a dynamic system designed to grow with the bots and provide some key services... one of which is to help players create petitions to file with CCP, another is to help expose those players who bot for all the world to see. I fully expect the bots to get better with time and become harder to detect - that's a logical conclusion to exposing them. Fortunately, they will still have some repetitive patterns of behavior, as I'd previously made clear. Originally by: Cyaxares II edit: also some of the more interesting bots are open-source, so each user can adapt the bot to behave after his own personal wishes. Don't like that mission bot firing his large lasers on elite frigates? just tell him not to do it & recompile. This allows for a great variety of bot behavior and capabilities (without each botter having to develop a full bot from scratch) making detection much harder. While I will admit that most Eve players are geeks - I would venture a guess that the majority of players have no idea how to compile programs. Just a guess - I have been wrong before... but it's rare :) In short, I'm happy you believe you could engineer the worlds best bot and get around all of the known behaviors (like responding to chat requests and carrying on a human conversation that involves answering questions) - please build that bot. I want to see it. Until such time as you engineer this superbot that can mimic human behaviors and beat all of the known behavior patterns of bots... and has no repetitive patterns of it's own... you're argument is fail.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.02.25 01:00:00 - [1233] First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals. CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.25 01:04:00 - [1234] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Consortium Agent In either case, no matter how a bot evolves it will always, always, always have repetitive patterns of behaviors. Always. Very true _but_ the behaviour of humans will be repetitive as well because the game is forcing them to. There is no way around having GMs go around and try to spot bots. And that means there is a dedicated team of knowledgeable individuals needed. (Sadly my confidence in the GM team does not allow me to hope for much in that reguard. But then, it's not my problem to solve that.) True, which is why it takes time to learn how to spot the behaviors that, generally speaking, only bots do with regular repetition. It's understood that mining bots attempt to mimic the behaviors of human player miners - but they don't. If you spend a little time in a belt where there are bots and human players you will begin to see the patterns of behaviors for each. It's the combination of behaviors with regular patterns (or regular reactions to outside stimuli) that smell of bot. Once you're used to looking for them - they tend to really stand out. Conversely, hauler bots and combat bots too have these stand-out patterns that make them easy to spot once you know what to look for. As was brought up earlier in the discussion, often you can put the words 'bot', 'macro', etc. in local chat and literally watch people log off where they sit!
Rent Buzzline	Posted - 2011.02.25 01:06:00 - [1235] Edited by: Rent Buzzline on 25/02/2011 01:10:20 Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 24/02/2011 18:32:48 Originally by: Rent Buzzline It's never too late to get straight. I don't think the majority of posters in this thread agrees with your opinion. Consensus seems to be that botters should get permabanned at first offense (instead of giving them temp bans of increasing duration) or that their skills and assets should be reset. To clarify, the "getting straight" part aimed at corp or alliance members and CEOs who turned a blind side to suspicious behavior of their fellow man. I fully support (and heartily endorse) the perma-ban for all botters.
sableye principle of motion	Posted - 2011.02.25 02:12:00 - [1236] you now I was going through alot of my eve stuff recently after starting to activly play agin I found a petiotn from 2004 against bits and the rpelyw as we'd do something and I now remember they never did there complancy goes back many years. I also started a thread on forums about it many years ago and now seemingly that thread is deleted as if they tying to blank out the past and be accoutable for bots. The reason I know thisis eve search shows it to be my biggest thread with most replies. all other threads I checked are there but not this one.. ----------------------------------------- View The North Star! In All Its Glory!!
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.25 04:02:00 - [1237] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 24/02/2011 16:17:58 I've pretty much lost all hope that CCP is going to put any significant effort into resolving the issue of bots. They've ignored this thread for more than 2 months and let it grow to 41 pages, with a spin doc from a GM as the only response. They could have chosen to use the CSM summit as an outlet to give us some reason to believe that they do intend to do something, keeping actual intentions under NDA, but they choose to redact all of whatever conversation of botting took place. CCP Oveur or CCP Zulu could have tossed us a bone in this thread to tell us they see the situation as a problem, and that they will address it. Instead, they've chosen to contain the problem to this thread; the problem being us. I'm pretty sure that Eve has jumped the shark as a competitive sandbox game. For many, it's already devolved into arcade mode, where the largest assets are disposable and having a character with any skillset is only an auction away; all it takes to have anything is RL cash or a bot and a bit of secure space. Remembering the effort that ASCN and BoB put into building the 1st titans, and the impact those 1st shipyards had on the game, it's sad to see how trivial fielding the games greatest achievements has become. Sadder stillà if they ever did get rid of bots, it would cement the current power blocks in place, since new alliances would never be able to field enough firepower to challenge the assets of the current alliances. At this point, I guess I'll keep my afk camper doing her job of keeping one system safe from the scourge, invest the larger part of my reserves into commodities that'll give a nice return if bots are ever removed, and play out the plex I have left. (no stuffs for you, don't ask). This is one of the reason ill never actively go into 0.0 ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
freshspree	Posted - 2011.02.25 04:22:00 - [1238] The only problem I see here is if a lot of peeps start doing RMT, it's going to be bad. That aside, the best way to counter this is to remove plex entirely. This is the problem and is probably why CCP hasn't been able to do much about it. I bet CCP will lose more than half of their subscribers just by taking such actions as the botters are prolly 5% of the current population at most. The hit will come from the huge amount of players that depend on plex for game time. I'll wait and see what happens.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.25 04:46:00 - [1239] Originally by: freshspree The only problem I see here is if a lot of peeps start doing RMT, it's going to be bad. That aside, the best way to counter this is to remove plex entirely. This is the problem and is probably why CCP hasn't been able to do much about it. I bet CCP will lose more than half of their subscribers just by taking such actions as the botters are prolly 5% of the current population at most. The hit will come from the huge amount of players that depend on plex for game time. I'll wait and see what happens. I dunno, I think itd take more than about 15000 bots to make it so that corps can field dozens of Titans and hundreds of supercaps (given 5% of 350,000 as I remember 350k being the number of accounts last I remember looking)
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.25 05:38:00 - [1240] Originally by: Pr0m Queen rofl guys, don't you understand the real problem? riverini and Majesta Empire are a part of Northern Coalition, this whole deal was brought to you by his site that was already mentioned here, and it all is, in fact, part of media campaign against Drone Region Russian Forces that are currently at war with NC that lasts since dawn of times I might add. Ammount of bots in EVE is annoying, true, but blaming just one party for bot usage is plain idiocy. Whole NC territory is one big blue napfest ideal for botters - why not look there? why not ask some particular individuals, how come they know so much about botting in the fisrt place? nah, that needs too much brain power from your common Joe. In the end it's all just dirty politics and dirty media war tricks EN24 series of articles about RMT is just boiling with hate against russians, while you can't beat them on battlefield or outsmart them or beat their famous tenacity, you decide to make them evil for the rest of EVE community? As for people making a lot of isks daily - I can, if I want or need to, farm few billions in a week just by runnig anomalies using my 4 accounts, of course I do it completely manually by myself, using one marauder, carrier and two battleships to simultaneously do two sanctums and two havens. and farming with stuff like motherships will give you even more. in fact, when i actively farm i can make around 300-500kk isk a day, why would anyone need to use bots when you can have this income? to deal with RMT problem, CCP should start acting against ISK buyers more than against botters, because it's the demand that creates the offer in this case. It's not really cause of bots, I guess bots were created to speed up ISK generation for the GROWING DEMAND of the RMT market. Make no mistake, it's not botters who's creating this problem, it's lazy players who find it easier to buy isk than to farm for it. And if not for PLEX being sold officially, this market would be even bigger, because then all the people who try to fund their EVE adventures by selling PLEXes would just turn to illegal isk sellers. What CCP can also do is to lower PLEX prices a bit, mybe make them 15 days instead of 30 to add more options for people with limited funds that would otherwise (instead of buying PLEX) spend their limited funds on illegal isk. It's just basic economy rules - supply and demand, and I think this is why CCP can't really take any action in current situation. I mean they can do something that would damage EVE greatly or even completely change it, but that would be too much. And there's no way some small simple half-measures can deal with this RMT problem. So guys, just let CCP do their job and just be happy about that you play in one of most awesome and original MMOs ever created. I'd like to highlight this post, because the style of argumentation is amazing. Whenever rampant botting is brought up, and ccp is asked to take action against bots, there is inevitably someone whose line of argument is basically this: "But the NC does it too." Not only is this missing the point, it's also very revealing. Someone is getting mighty defensive whenever botting is brought up. I wonder why.. It's not like botting alliances like Shadow of xXDEATHXx were always targeted specifically. We're talking _all_ bots here. Their people need to be permabanned, the people who give them a place to operate need to be vivisected. Who cares on which part of the map they are? They need to diaf. Especially revealing, by the way, is the RMT smokebomb. RMT is completely detached from botting. These are two separate issues.

chrisss0r Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.02.25 05:55:00 - [1241] Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: Pr0m Queen rofl guys, don't you understand the real problem? riverini and Majesta Empire are a part of Northern Coalition, this whole deal was brought to you by his site that was already mentioned here, and it all is, in fact, part of media campaign against Drone Region Russian Forces that are currently at war with NC that lasts since dawn of times I might add. Ammount of bots in EVE is annoying, true, but blaming just one party for bot usage is plain idiocy. Whole NC territory is one big blue napfest ideal for botters - why not look there? why not ask some particular individuals, how come they know so much about botting in the fisrt place? nah, that needs too much brain power from your common Joe. In the end it's all just dirty politics and dirty media war tricks EN24 series of articles about RMT is just boiling with hate against russians, while you can't beat them on battlefield or outsmart them or beat their famous tenacity, you decide to make them evil for the rest of EVE community? As for people making a lot of isks daily - I can, if I want or need to, farm few billions in a week just by runnig anomalies using my 4 accounts, of course I do it completely manually by myself, using one marauder, carrier and two battleships to simultaneously do two sanctums and two havens. and farming with stuff like motherships will give you even more. in fact, when i actively farm i can make around 300-500kk isk a day, why would anyone need to use bots when you can have this income? to deal with RMT problem, CCP should start acting against ISK buyers more than against botters, because it's the demand that creates the offer in this case. It's not really cause of bots, I guess bots were created to speed up ISK generation for the GROWING DEMAND of the RMT market. Make no mistake, it's not botters who's creating this problem, it's lazy players who find it easier to buy isk than to farm for it. And if not for PLEX being sold officially, this market would be even bigger, because then all the people who try to fund their EVE adventures by selling PLEXes would just turn to illegal isk sellers. What CCP can also do is to lower PLEX prices a bit, mybe make them 15 days instead of 30 to add more options for people with limited funds that would otherwise (instead of buying PLEX) spend their limited funds on illegal isk. It's just basic economy rules - supply and demand, and I think this is why CCP can't really take any action in current situation. I mean they can do something that would damage EVE greatly or even completely change it, but that would be too much. And there's no way some small simple half-measures can deal with this RMT problem. So guys, just let CCP do their job and just be happy about that you play in one of most awesome and original MMOs ever created. I'd like to highlight this post, because the style of argumentation is amazing. Whenever rampant botting is brought up, and ccp is asked to take action against bots, there is inevitably someone whose line of argument is basically this: "But the NC does it too." Not only is this missing the point, it's also very revealing. Someone is getting mighty defensive whenever botting is brought up. I wonder why.. It's not like botting alliances like Shadow of xXDEATHXx were always targeted specifically. We're talking _all_ bots here. Their people need to be permabanned, the people who give them a place to operate need to be vivisected. Who cares on which part of the map they are? They need to diaf. Especially revealing, by the way, is the RMT smokebomb. RMT is completely detached from botting. These are two separate issues. hehe did you read my posts on kugu? :D
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.25 05:57:00 - [1242] I rarely read kugs tbh.
chrisss0r Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.02.25 06:04:00 - [1243] Well it's funny i'm not the only one to notice that line of defense. I put a post on kugu that's very similar. People complain about botting ruining the game and out of nowhere a horde of angry russians show up and complain about how botting is a small problem and even if it were a big propblem "the nc does it as well!!!!" somehow hoping that would be an argument to leave botting alone. pretty revealing.
Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous	Posted - 2011.02.25 07:08:00 - [1244] Originally by: CCP Wrangler WeÆre currently putting together more information on our efforts to fight RMT and we will make that available to everyone next week. We appreciate that this is something you are all very passionate about and we look forward to answering your questions. Hi, I just wanted to say thanks for the nothing that you've told us or achieved in this area in the last 3 months. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2011.02.25 07:35:00 - [1245] When you guys whining here, smart people got a script and rent a system for his new supercap.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.25 07:40:00 - [1246] Originally by: Kogh Ayon When you guys whining here, smart people got a script and rent a system for his new supercap. botter detected lol
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.02.25 08:31:00 - [1247] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa I don't think it quite compares. Knowing something you cannot know is different to amplifying Cap transfer slightly or capitals being too large and massive to use jumpgates. There might also be some magic involved, but it's T1 magic at best. The local thing is T3 magic. #Edit: It will be really difficult to explain how local works in game terms. Concord prohibits meddling with your ships transponder or IFF system that sends a solar system wide beacon so everyone knows you're there? Quite weak but the best I can think of. IIRC, you are using Concord's gates or alignment system (in case of a cyno). You either check in with CONCORD or stay stuck in inter-system Purgatory until you do. Of course, the real reason is that CCP accepts the use of local as an instanteous intelligence. It also realized there was a demand for no local in some space and gave players that. (ironically, that space is inhabited by primarily PvErs, while "real PvPers" continue to sit in K-space and whine about local)
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.02.25 08:46:00 - [1248] Quote: Hi, I just wanted to say thanks for the nothing that you've told us or achieved in this area in the last 3 months Imagine the uproar if the flaunted 60k concurrent players revealed to be 20k real players (the rest bots). Would not give an healthy picture of the game, wouldn't it? It could even show off that EvE is not growing as much as it's believed. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.25 12:39:00 - [1249] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Hi, I just wanted to say thanks for the nothing that you've told us or achieved in this area in the last 3 months Imagine the uproar if the flaunted 60k concurrent players revealed to be 20k real players (the rest bots). Would not give an healthy picture of the game, wouldn't it? It could even show off that EvE is not growing as much as it's believed. Indeed. And the main reason, I think, that afking for a certain amount of time doesn't log you out. The above 20k could turn out to be about 3k, heh.
Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.25 12:50:00 - [1250] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Hi, I just wanted to say thanks for the nothing that you've told us or achieved in this area in the last 3 months Imagine the uproar if the flaunted 60k concurrent players revealed to be 20k real players (the rest bots). Would not give an healthy picture of the game, wouldn't it? It could even show off that EvE is not growing as much as it's believed. I have noticed that the number of the users is going down actually. Might be mroe active accoutns but the number of logged people on average weekday is getting lower to what I remember. Pod

Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.25 13:15:00 - [1251] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 25/02/2011 13:16:24 Originally by: Target Painter (ironically, that space is inhabited by primarily PvErs, while "real PvPers" continue to sit in K-space and whine about local) This is everything Ive seen lol the hypocracy in this game is amazing Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Hi, I just wanted to say thanks for the nothing that you've told us or achieved in this area in the last 3 months Imagine the uproar if the flaunted 60k concurrent players revealed to be 20k real players (the rest bots). Would not give an healthy picture of the game, wouldn't it? It could even show off that EvE is not growing as much as it's believed. Actually it is growing that much, its just all bots ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.25 13:21:00 - [1252] Originally by: Ephemeron First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals. CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values. Frankly, aside from the RMT issue, which takes money out of CCP's pockets, the lack of effort on the part of CCP to resolve this issue, address this issue with the player base and partake in any discussions whatsoever about this issue clearly indicates (to me) that CCP is maintaining a neutral position on bots. Despite having a EULA that clearly states bots are a violation of policy, and aside from the occasional bone they've thrown our way (I do believe it was a fail devblog about RMT that got us all humping on the bot problem again and how fail CCP has been at dealing with it) - they are clearly leaving the problem up to the players to resolve. How can I be so sure? I can't - but it's a hunch based on my experience with CCP since '03 - whenever CCP fails to address an issue it is because they expect their players to police the problem themselves. Players have turned a blind eye to the bot problem more than CCP does. Even 40+ pages of 'you should do this, you should do that' is a drop in the bucket of the player base. We're the outcasts, not the majority. So it is, for all intents and purposes, up to the people reading and posting in this very forum to take matters into their own hands. What we do with it is another story entirely - I have suggested (and hope) people will begin to use reportbots.com and hammer CCP with petition after petition after petition. The more people actively seeking out bots and reporting them, the more likely CCP is to do something about it. Sitting here and complaining that CCP hasn't done anything... well... also hasn't done anything, has it? Bots have been a problem for years - and have grown to the point of frustrating the average joe player, killing the Eve economy and fielding @ssloads of titans, supercaps and caps in nullsec - not only due to a lack of effort on the part of CCP, but also a lack of effort on the part of players to proactively eliminate the problem. Will we be able to detect all bots, everywhere? Probably not. Will we be able to report on enough bots to highlight the players, corporations, alliances and locations of bots? Absolutely. So, again, I recommend and suggest players take action to locate and report as many bots as they possibly can. I've banged my head against the wall on this issue with CCP, other players, et al. It's the whole reason reportbots.com was born - I got fed up with the lack of efforts on the part of both CCP and the players. CCP has consistently failed to provide us an easy way to even report bots (e.g. right-click -> Report suspected bot) so my aim was to provide as easy a way as I could to generate the petitions required, teach others how to spot and report bots, and provide a system of evidence that illustrates the problem. So, the easy tool is now there - it is up to the player base to use it and recommend it to others. It's the only way forward I can see on this problem. If I'm wrong... so be it. At least I'm trying to do something about it and not just complaining. People have just either forgotten how to help themselves, or have become too complacent to do anything about it.
Myz Toyou APOCALYPSE LEGION	Posted - 2011.02.25 13:28:00 - [1253] Originally by: chrisss0r Well it's funny i'm not the only one to notice that line of defense. I put a post on kugu that's very similar. People complain about botting ruining the game and out of nowhere a horde of angry russians show up and complain about how botting is a small problem and even if it were a big propblem "the nc does it as well!!!!" somehow hoping that would be an argument to leave botting alone. pretty revealing. When I was with BricK atleast Interstellar eXodus had some bots running 24/7 in Stain and created some drama when an corpm8 Awoxed them. Maybe every 0.0 alliance playing the blamegame here should just start to look in the mirrow 1st and punish their bot members endlessly before throwing rocks, that would cut atleast 50% of the problem.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.25 13:36:00 - [1254] Originally by: Consortium Agent Even 40+ pages of 'you should do this, you should do that' is a drop in the bucket of the player base. We're the outcasts, not the majority. Exactly. They don't care what 10, 20, or 50 people think, right or wrong. If you can't beat them, join them. To the Bot-Mobile!
Hakaru Ishiwara Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.02.25 14:02:00 - [1255] Originally by: Myz Toyou Originally by: chrisss0r ... When I was with BricK atleast Interstellar eXodus had some bots running 24/7 in Stain and created some drama when an corpm8 Awoxed them. Maybe every 0.0 alliance playing the blamegame here should just start to look in the mirrow 1st and punish their bot members endlessly before throwing rocks, that would cut atleast 50% of the problem. Why kill a corp revenue stream? Even at a rate of 10%, billions of ISK can be made on null-sec ratting taxes. For those entities that do not hold moons, that income can help with reimbursements and padding the CEO(s) wallets. What incentive is there to police one's own membership? It is much more fun to go kill opponents' botting operations.
The VC's	Posted - 2011.02.25 14:46:00 - [1256] This wouldn't be the first time an Icelandic company's been associated with money laundering http://icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=28304&ew_0_a_id=139588
Perramas Caldari Pan Caldarian Ventures	Posted - 2011.02.25 14:47:00 - [1257] Originally by: Nina Mercedez Originally by: Consortium Agent To the Bot-Mobile!
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.25 16:00:00 - [1258] Originally by: Nina Mercedez Originally by: Consortium Agent Even 40+ pages of 'you should do this, you should do that' is a drop in the bucket of the player base. We're the outcasts, not the majority. Exactly. They don't care what 10, 20, or 50 people think, right or wrong. If you can't beat them, join them. To the Bot-Mobile! You must first try to beat them. As far as I can tell the only ones really doing anything about the bot problem is CCP. I know! That's not saying much is it? So, to my point about complacency, the players haven't tried to beat bots... yet. Not in a real way. Botageddon is long overdue if you catch my drift. Let us first start by trying to beat them at their own game (which is a fun exercise in strategy, for what it's worth) before you go joining the rank and file of mindless bot runners... and invariably end up on the list of bots those of us who are not complacent report ;P
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.25 16:06:00 - [1259] Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara It is much more fun to go kill opponents' botting operations. That works. Just so long as the alliances regularly kill off each others botters, then the problem still goes down. Purging your own alliance is morally cleaner, but I'd take the alliances killing off each others botters. In fact, why they don't is a bit beyond me - you'd think the best way to kill an alliance would be to take away their supply of ISK while at the same time dealing lots of damage. Go for it! :)
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.25 16:30:00 - [1260] Originally by: Consortium Agent Originally by: Nina Mercedez Originally by: Consortium Agent Even 40+ pages of 'you should do this, you should do that' is a drop in the bucket of the player base. We're the outcasts, not the majority. Exactly. They don't care what 10, 20, or 50 people think, right or wrong. If you can't beat them, join them. To the Bot-Mobile! ~~You~~ CCP must first try to beat them. ~~As far as I can tell~~ the only ones that should really be doing anything about the bot problem is CCP. I know! That's not saying much is it? So, to my point about complacency, the players haven't tried to beat bots... yet. Not in a real way. Botageddon is long overdue if you catch my drift. Let us first start by trying to beat them at their own game (which is a fun exercise in strategy, for what it's worth) before you go joining the rank and file of mindless bot runners... and invariably end up on the list of bots those of us who are not complacent report ;P We don't have the required tools to police their game. And even if we did, why is it up to us to get rid of those breaking the EULA? If they don't want to level the playing field, I don't see how we should waste our time doing it. Not when we can become a part of the ~~problem~~ rich people. Problem struck out, because it's apparently not a problem.

Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.25 17:30:00 - [1261] Originally by: Nina Mercedez Originally by: Consortium Agent Originally by: Nina Mercedez Originally by: Consortium Agent Even 40+ pages of 'you should do this, you should do that' is a drop in the bucket of the player base. We're the outcasts, not the majority. Exactly. They don't care what 10, 20, or 50 people think, right or wrong. If you can't beat them, join them. To the Bot-Mobile! ~~You~~ CCP must first try to beat them. ~~As far as I can tell~~ the only ones that should really be doing anything about the bot problem is CCP. I know! That's not saying much is it? So, to my point about complacency, the players haven't tried to beat bots... yet. Not in a real way. Botageddon is long overdue if you catch my drift. Let us first start by trying to beat them at their own game (which is a fun exercise in strategy, for what it's worth) before you go joining the rank and file of mindless bot runners... and invariably end up on the list of bots those of us who are not complacent report ;P We don't have the required tools to police their game. And even if we did, why is it up to us to get rid of those breaking the EULA? If they don't want to level the playing field, I don't see how we should waste our time doing it. Not when we can become a part of the ~~problem~~ rich people. Problem struck out, because it's apparently not a problem. You can either choose to be a part of the problem, or a part of the solution. If you, personally, could care less about bots and want to be a bot - then by all means work out. Don't let me stop you from your merry path . o O ( /me scribbles down a name in my little black bot book ) :) Frankly, I'm speaking to those of us who are here discussing the problem and, ultimately, offering solutions to both players and to CCP. If you feel this is solely CCPs responsibility - I don't blame you. But facts are facts. And the simple fact is CCP isn't doing anything to solve the problem, which means it's up to the players to do something about it - I merely suggest we do more than constantly complain about how CCP could give two rats buttholes about the problem - this is a well known and established fact lacking any evidence to the contrary. Complaining about it does nothing. Finding and reporting bots to CCP and exposing the bots publicly - that is doing something. That is a tool that can help the players police the game. Why should we? I venture to guess everyone has their own personal reasons as to why they would want or not want to help police the game. Mine are simple - I want to level the playing field without resorting to the kind of lame, lazy tactics those who run bots use to build their wallets. I can build my wallet without ever touching a bot. Would it be easier to run a couple dozen rat bots or miner bots and rake in ISK that way? Perhaps. Would I get any enjoyment out of that whatsoever? No. That's my reason. Your reason may be different, and you may not wish to help at all. In which case, why are you posting in this thread?
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.25 17:40:00 - [1262] Originally by: Consortium Agent You can either choose to be a part of the problem, or a part of the solution. If you, personally, could care less about bots and want to be a bot - then by all means work out. Don't let me stop you from your merry path . o O ( /me scribbles down a name in my little black bot book ) :) Frankly, I'm speaking to those of us who are here discussing the problem and, ultimately, offering solutions to both players and to CCP. If you feel this is solely CCPs responsibility - I don't blame you. But facts are facts. And the simple fact is CCP isn't doing anything to solve the problem, which means it's up to the players to do something about it - I merely suggest we do more than constantly complain about how CCP could give two rats buttholes about the problem - this is a well known and established fact lacking any evidence to the contrary. Complaining about it does nothing. Finding and reporting bots to CCP and exposing the bots publicly - that is doing something. That is a tool that can help the players police the game. Why should we? I venture to guess everyone has their own personal reasons as to why they would want or not want to help police the game. Mine are simple - I want to level the playing field without resorting to the kind of lame, lazy tactics those who run bots use to build their wallets. I can build my wallet without ever touching a bot. Would it be easier to run a couple dozen rat bots or miner bots and rake in ISK that way? Perhaps. Would I get any enjoyment out of that whatsoever? No. That's my reason. Your reason may be different, and you may not wish to help at all. In which case, why are you posting in this thread? 1. re: Problem/solution, that means CCP are part of the problem. If that's the case, we're all doomed. 2. Save your ink. If/when I choose to bot, it won't be with this char/account. 3. After almost 3 months with no reply from CCP, I have honestly no idea why I, or anyone else, add to it. At this point it's comedic.
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.25 17:46:00 - [1263] Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 25/02/2011 17:46:35 In conclusion: Bots are an integral part of this game.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.25 18:07:00 - [1264] Integral, and essential. I'd like to see them give some people GM powers, not paid or anything, and have them go find bots, and amass solid proof. Have IA monitor them, of course. Hell, I'd volunteer, it's not like I do anything in Eve outside chatting nowadays anyway.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.25 18:14:00 - [1265] Originally by: Nina Mercedez 1. re: Problem/solution, that means CCP are part of the problem. If that's the case, we're all doomed. 2. Save your ink. If/when I choose to bot, it won't be with this char/account. 3. After almost 3 months with no reply from CCP, I have honestly no idea why I, or anyone else, add to it. At this point it's comedic. 1. Agreed. CCP is part of the problem, but I disagree that we're all doomed as a result. Quite the contrary - I believe we have an advantage CCP does not... people. People willing to police the game for the sake of killmails, corpses and their own sense of morality. 2. It was only a joke man ;) Lighten up. Didn't you see the smile at the end? lol 3. Because it keeps the problem at the top of the list, #1, and it gives people an opportunity to discuss alternative solutions and gives CCP some good ideas on how they might go about solving the problems. Just because CCP elects to remain neutral and not respond to the bot issue doesn't mean they aren't reading this thread and aren't taking note of what the player base is doing. In fact, I fully believe CCP would back a player initiative to eliminate the bot problem. My only hope is that they begin to realize the potential for giving their player base tools to solve the problem themselves - many of which have already been suggested in this thread.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.25 18:19:00 - [1266] Originally by: Nina Mercedez Integral, and essential. I'd like to see them give some people GM powers, not paid or anything, and have them go find bots, and amass solid proof. Have IA monitor them, of course. Hell, I'd volunteer, it's not like I do anything in Eve outside chatting nowadays anyway. w00t! In that case, how about you volunteer to go find bots and report them using reportbots.com/report/ and then file a petition with the people who do have the GM powers? Not really that much different from what you propose - ultimately the GM (not the IA) have control over who get's the ban hammer anyway, so if you don't do much more than chat now - put that chatbox to work for you and start talking to suspected bots, figure out their other behaviors (reportbots.com/university/), and file your reports and petitions!
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.25 18:32:00 - [1267] Edited by: Nina Mercedez on 25/02/2011 18:32:05 If they came here and said that information would be useful, and used, maybe I would. Without that I'm not wasting my time.
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.02.25 22:40:00 - [1268] Originally by: Nina Mercedez Integral, and essential. I'd like to see them give some people GM powers, not paid or anything, and have them go find bots, and amass solid proof. Have IA monitor them, of course. Hell, I'd volunteer, it's not like I do anything in Eve outside chatting nowadays anyway. I support this thread... but... giving GM powers to ppl that did not sign contract which say what you can do and what you cant, and how... i think... no thnx... even CCP staff can do (and did) some "illegal" things... and ppl without RL contracts with that power... that could kill the game... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.25 22:55:00 - [1269] I guess you're right. Oh well.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.02.26 00:06:00 - [1270] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae Originally by: Nina Mercedez Integral, and essential. I'd like to see them give some people GM powers, not paid or anything, and have them go find bots, and amass solid proof. Have IA monitor them, of course. Hell, I'd volunteer, it's not like I do anything in Eve outside chatting nowadays anyway. I support this thread... but... giving GM powers to ppl that did not sign contract which say what you can do and what you cant, and how... i think... no thnx... even CCP staff can do (and did) some "illegal" things... and ppl without RL contracts with that power... that could kill the game... Yay T20

Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.26 07:36:00 - [1271] Edited by: Consortium Agent on 26/02/2011 07:38:09 Originally by: Nina Mercedez Edited by: Nina Mercedez on 25/02/2011 18:32:05 If they came here and said that information would be useful, and used, maybe I would. Without that I'm not wasting my time. One of many positive responses I've gotten from CCP... ============================= Hi, Yes, if you have any more suspects or other players can use your site to make it easier to report suspected macro users, whether it be ratters, miners or missioners, then it all helps us to combat theses activities. Please feel free to contact us again if you need further assistance. Best regards, GM <snip> EVE Online Customer Support ============================= Good enough??
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.26 07:55:00 - [1272] Originally by: Consortium Agent Hi, Yes, if you have any more suspects or other players can use your site to make it easier to report suspected macro users, whether it be ratters, miners or missioners, then it all helps us to combat theses activities. Please feel free to contact us again if you need further assistance. Best regards, GM <snip> EVE Online Customer Support ============================= Good enough?? No. What you have there is a totally clueless GM. CCP will accept NO EVIDENCE from third-party sites regarding exploits or EULA violations. Ever. That is set in stone. Anyway your site is a total waste of time I'm afraid as CCP do not permaban botters UNLESS they are involved in RMT. CCP condone cheating. Simple as that.
Sinjuri DEFCON. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.02.26 11:56:00 - [1273] Originally by: Othran CCP condone cheating. Simple as that. This
Hoya en Marland	Posted - 2011.02.26 11:58:00 - [1274] Originally by: Othran CCP will accept NO EVIDENCE from third-party sites regarding exploits or EULA violations. Ever. That is set in stone. Anyway your site is a total waste of time I'm afraid as CCP do not permaban botters UNLESS they are involved in RMT. Exactly. Besides, I am not going to waste my time hunting down botters only to see them getting 1 (one!) day ban. After all, it is CCP's ****ing job - if they don't want to deal with it, fine. But then I am not paying for this game any more... I guess that's fine too.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Sigma Special Tactics Group Fleet Coordination Coalition	Posted - 2011.02.26 16:58:00 - [1275] As a programmer I know that it would not be impossible to track statistics on activity of a player and reveal certain patterns that would indicate bot behavior. I used to write the programs that would do the exact same thing for RL peoples finances. It was 3000 lines of old FORTRAN but it was accurate. That this problem is not addressed nor approached shows tacit approval. In the end, to change things around, would have to be based on what kind of person they want to subscribe. Any company wants everybody to be their client, as profit is the goal. To eliminate bots means you have to eliminate the kind of people who want to win at all costs, and replace them with people who take the game less seriously. The long term investment is not different but on the short term, it is. The win at all cost crowds will bot, and they will get multiple accounts too. Casual players will have less if more than one. The win at all cost player wants quick gratification and will get bored in a few years but the casual player will be on for twice as long. So there you have it. It's an arms race. If you want to be in 0.0, go bot. Or get beaten back to lowsec or empire. Period. Consider it a game mechanic. The rest of us will enjoy popping into their systems making them warp to SS or dock, knowing that on the other end some guy somewhere is taking a swig of his vodka, pushing his fat girlfriend off his lap, and looking at his 6 or 7 screens while getting his day ruined. Cloak up in your own safe spot as he tries to camp you into a station with T2 ships and keep combat probes stuck in his craw until you get raged at in a foreign language. It's the most entertaining screen saver you will ever have.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.02.26 17:45:00 - [1276] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Any company wants everybody to be their client, as profit is the goal. To eliminate bots means you have to eliminate the kind of people who want to win at all costs[...] So there you have it. It's an arms race. If you want to be in 0.0, go bot. Or get beaten back to lowsec or empire. Period. The official "win at all costs" method is CCP-sanctioned RMT (PLEX). There is absolutely no reason to bot if you want to win "at all costs". Botting is for winning cheaply or for non-sanctioned RMTers. Quote: The rest of us will enjoy popping into their systems making them warp to SS or dock Yes, it's so entertaining, playing an MMO against stupid bots ... Quote: It's the most entertaining screen saver you will ever have. Nice little story, but it never happens. Post a screenshot as proof... How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.26 18:34:00 - [1277] Originally by: Consortium Agent Edited by: Consortium Agent on 26/02/2011 07:38:09 Originally by: Nina Mercedez Edited by: Nina Mercedez on 25/02/2011 18:32:05 If they came here and said that information would be useful, and used, maybe I would. Without that I'm not wasting my time. One of many positive responses I've gotten from CCP... GM correspondence removed as per the forum rules.StevieSG Good enough?? Since the **** got to your post before I did, would you mind emailing me the text if I sent you an email addy in game?
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.26 18:54:00 - [1278] Nina it basically said "yes any info on bots would be welcome". The GM (name was redacted by poster before CCP got here) who responded seemed to believe that a third-party site collating "evidence" would be fine. It isn't. CCP don't accept any "evidence" from third-party sites regarding EULA violations. They're quite right not to do so but for sites like dotlan that pull stats from TQ then you have to assume CCP has exactly the same data - in fact they must have more accurate data. If CCP don't want it fixed (and there's no evidence at ALL that they do) then why bother? You're wasting your time.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.26 19:00:00 - [1279] Fair enough, thanks.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.26 21:04:00 - [1280] Originally by: Othran Nina it basically said "yes any info on bots would be welcome". The GM (name was redacted by poster before CCP got here) who responded seemed to believe that a third-party site collating "evidence" would be fine. Actually, it didn't say that exactly - it said (and I paraphrase for the benefit of others) that the site might be handy for helping other players to file petitions with CCP - not that a third-party site collating 'evidence' would be fine. Quite the contrary. It also said it would be helpful to the GMs and some other stuff that might have gone a long way towards helping players understand their position. But meh - thread **'s got it. Gotta be quick to read this stuff Nina ;P lol I've had better responses, but I guess I won't post them since they violate da rulez. Talking about botting? Banned. Botting? Not banned. :( Sad panda. Anyway, waste of time or not... at least the tool is there for those who feel compelled to use it and take action against the problem. If players would rather *** and complain about CCPs response (or lack thereof) than to take action themselves, then that is their decision. It is up to each player to decide if they want to ban together and try and put a dent in the problem with player activity, or sit around and complain about how it's CCPs problem. What nobody seems to get is... it's really not CCPs problem. Short of having the rule in their EULA (which they could remove and tell us all to get ***ed) there is no problem for them. CCP makes money off bots, period. Why kill your own income because some players find the activities of other players to be unfair, when they both continue to line your pockets with gold, as it were? No, the problem is not CCPs to solve at all because, it's not a problem for them. Who is it a problem for? You. Me. Most of the people in this thread and most active human players you talk to in-game. So, the reality is that is is our* problem because we're the ones offended by it. We can choose to take action within the limited confines of the capabilities CCP exposes to us for taking action - file petitions, expose the botters, kill the botters we can and generally just cause an interruption in the flow of commerce for these botters. If you choose not to even try to take action against the botters, then you're complacent and complicit in their being in the game. You knock CCP for not doing what you want them to do, which is to locate and remove bots, but you don't want to make any effort of your own to help them to locate and remove bots because you disagree with their policies. So who wins then? Botters. 'Ask not what your CCP can do for you, but what you can do for your CCP' lol ;) Seriously, when did this game get filled with a bunch of cry baby whiners who don't want to do anything for themselves except bash CCP for doing nothing about something that they themselves also do nothing about? Wake up. CCP isn't your momma - it's a company with a bottom line, expenses, profit and loss, and jobs. Not enough jobs to combat the bot problem tho - hence why a massive effort on the part of players to locate, report and petition the bots would go a long, long way towards putting a dent in the problem. http://www.reportbots.com/ is the tool. New Eden is the place. CCP are the people who can use whatever ban hammers they choose to use whenever they choose to use them (a frustrating process for the players, I agree). Put them all together and what do you have? Progress.

Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.26 21:38:00 - [1281] One more thing I figured I might as well bring up since it's relevant to the discussion. I'm sure everyone who has filed a bot report has received the defacto form mail response that CCP thanks you and that if you don't see immediate action not to despair and to continue to report these activities. What they don't, and can't, tell you is that many of the reports you file are small potatoes. Grunts, if you will. Grunts who, eventually, leave a paper trail to their masters. Since it is ultimately the head of the snake you want to cut off, since cutting off the tail doesn't kill the snake, we have to allow CCP the time and leeway to use the grunts for what grunts are good for - exposing the head of the snake. Killing off a bunch of grunts with the ban hammer is useless if the next day the head of the snake fields a bunch more you don't know about. No, it is clearly better to take the time to build the evidence you need and follow the trail of scum until you hear the head hiss. Then you whack the hell out of the head with the ban hammer and the rest of the snake (the tail - the grunts we report) die with it. Let me put it in another geeky way. An analogy: SETI has been listening to the stars for 50+ years. Scanning the sky, picking stars pretty much at random, doing sweeps of the sky in random and known ways. All of which has produced... silence. Today, some 50+ years later, scientists in completely unrelated fields have developed technology which allows them to locate and report stars with planetary systems having planets of known mass, atmosphere and such. SETI, in response, now points their radio telescopes at the stars that are known to have planets more than they point them anywhere else, especially the stars that are thought to have Earth sized or near Earth sized planets. Why? Because it increases the chances considerably that they might hear some radio waves leaking into space if those Earth-like planets harbor intelligent life. In much the same way... CCP GMs are SETI. Players are the scientists forging new tools that will allow CCP to focus in on the most likely locations of intelligent life (literally).
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.02.26 21:44:00 - [1282] Edited by: Paul Mustaka Hekard on 26/02/2011 21:45:57 Edited by: Paul Mustaka Hekard on 26/02/2011 21:44:59 Sounds like time to kill some bots. Futile or not, it will still be the****utic. This alt will be signing on to killthebots.com; or whatever the hell it is. We can start with the low-hanging fruit and work our way up. edit: since when is ther-a-peutic a censored word?
Hoya en Marland	Posted - 2011.02.26 23:57:00 - [1283] @Consortium Agent: So you are implying that CCP is making money of the botters and therefore has damn good reason NOT to do anything serious against this plague. Yet, being aware of that, you are still inviting us to take action. Don't you find this a little bit... pointless? Are we going against CCP itself here? At the end, it's quite simple: CCP is selling broken (someone said: deeply rotten) product which they don't want to fix. Which leaves us, their paying customers, with only two choices - swallow the s***, pretend that it was tasty, and play the game as it is. Or don't.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.27 01:07:00 - [1284] Originally by: Consortium Agent What they don't, and can't, tell you is that many of the reports you file are small potatoes. Grunts, if you will. Grunts who, eventually, leave a paper trail to their masters. Since it is ultimately the head of the snake you want to cut off, since cutting off the tail doesn't kill the snake, we have to allow CCP the time and leeway to use the grunts for what grunts are good for - exposing the head of the snake. Killing off a bunch of grunts with the ban hammer is useless if the next day the head of the snake fields a bunch more you don't know about. No, it is clearly better to take the time to build the evidence you need and follow the trail of scum until you hear the head hiss. Then you whack the hell out of the head with the ban hammer and the rest of the snake (the tail - the grunts we report) die with it. Hahaha, right. They had more than enough time to do that, and they ignored the problem. There is no paper trail for a guy running half a dozen bots to finance his supercap, or a botting corp renting a system in the drone regions to produce supers to sell for real money. The "paper trails" have long been exposed, discussed, vivisected, discussed again, archived, dug up, and analyzed all over again. We're long past the stage where incompetence can be a valid explanation for what is happening. It's either ignorance or malicious intend.
VaMei Gallente	Posted - 2011.02.27 01:24:00 - [1285] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer To eliminate bots means you have to eliminate the kind of people who want to win at all costs, and replace them with people who take the game less seriously. While I agree with most of what you said, I have to disagree with this point. Those who take Eve seriously as a sandbox game, and understand all the ramifications of being a sandbox, understand that bots, RMT, EBay, Plex, & character auctions all break from the spirit of a true sandbox where 'winning' is measured by how well you improve your position relative to the position of your opponents. External programs like EveMon, EveMeep & EFT, along with advice from friends & forums can guide your choices toward whatever goals you set, but nothing else from the outside world should impact the game. When the outside world does change the game, your achievments are not your own, and your opponents have been cheated out of their 'win'.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Sigma Special Tactics Group Fleet Coordination Coalition	Posted - 2011.02.27 01:43:00 - [1286] Originally by: VaMei Edited by: VaMei on 27/02/2011 01:29:57 Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer To eliminate bots means you have to eliminate the kind of people who want to win at all costs, and replace them with people who take the game less seriously. While I agree with most of what you said, I have to disagree with this point. Those who take Eve seriously as a sandbox game, and understand all the ramifications of being a sandbox, understand that bots, RMT, EBay, Plex, & character auctions all break from the spirit of a true sandbox where 'winning' is measured by how well you improve your position relative to the position of your opponents. External programs like EveMon, EveMeep & EFT, along with advice from friends & forums can guide your choices toward whatever goals you set, but nothing from the outside world should directly impact the game. When the outside world does change the game, your achievments are not your own, and your opponents have been cheated out of their 'win'. I take Eve very seriously, so seriously that I won't cheat. I should further clarify what I mean by "seriously". Some people can lose and just lose - it's only a game. But there are those who are so afraid of losing they either avoid all chances of it and mine/mission in high sec, or they want the PVP but still have to win so badly that they will cheat, lie, steal, sell their mother, and whatever else - possibly even do RMT. (When they do lose, they can be a source of epic rage displays but it's still a sad thing to witness) So in many cases I think that if winning means botting because botting means you can get those caps, they are not even going to bother thinking about the moral and ethical implications. Perhaps we could wonder that CCP is not cracking down on bots in a case by case basis so much because if one alliance started getting the hammer dropped on them for botting, and others didn't, there would be endless rage and complaining over it. As it usually goes, when everybody can do something that they know they should not, it becomes seen as a right and enforcement against it seems arbitrary. Imagine if banning bots via reporting was actually effective, then you would see a day when accusing enemies of botting becomes a war tactic. That too would be sick and stupid, these "lawfare" games the likes of which if you want to deal with you could get a better dose of it in local politics. I can't think of solutions, but someone did post another thread a while ago about starting up scores of trial accounts, leading them to 0.0, and causing bots to dock up by placing noob trial alts in systems. I would not be surprised if this was discovered to be an existing resource denial tactic. Might as well hire thugs to go to your enemies houses and beat them up at their computers too. And all that trouble for a game.
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.27 01:53:00 - [1287] Originally by: Consortium Agent Talking about botting? Banned. Botting? Not banned. Nothing new... Breaking the news of T20, banned. accepting items known to be illegally gained by a dev? Not banned lol ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
Brannoncyll	Posted - 2011.02.27 02:57:00 - [1288] I suspect many of the alliances who condone bots within their ranks do so simply because if they didn't they would quickly be overwhelmed by the superior forces of those who do. If CCP do not come down on this hard and soon, the arms race will spiral ever further out of control to the point where anyone who wants to compete must bot. The longer they leave it, the worse it will get. There needs to be a series of very large and public purges of botting accounts and also the removal of all assets that the alliances have purchased with the proceeds of the bots.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.27 03:45:00 - [1289] Originally by: Brannoncyll If CCP do not come down on this hard and soon, the arms race will spiral ever further out of control to the point where anyone who wants to compete must bot. ...20 Titans in one fight... 100s of supercaps... that time is nigh ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.27 04:16:00 - [1290] Originally by: Brannoncyll If CCP do not come down on this hard and soon, the arms race will spiral ever further out of control to the point where anyone who wants to compete must bot. Not sure how to break this to you, but that is already the case. The only thing keeping alliances from encouraging their members to run bots is petty idealism.

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.02.27 08:55:00 - [1291] Edited by: Othran on 27/02/2011 08:58:06 Originally by: Consortium Agent One more thing I figured I might as well bring up since it's relevant to the discussion. I'm sure everyone who has filed a bot report has received the defacto form mail response that CCP thanks you and that if you don't see immediate action not to despair and to continue to report these activities. What they don't, and can't, tell you is that many of the reports you file are small potatoes. Grunts, if you will. Grunts who, eventually, leave a paper trail to their masters. Since it is ultimately the head of the snake you want to cut off, since cutting off the tail doesn't kill the snake, we have to allow CCP the time and leeway to use the grunts for what grunts are good for - exposing the head of the snake. Killing off a bunch of grunts with the ban hammer is useless if the next day the head of the snake fields a bunch more you don't know about. No, it is clearly better to take the time to build the evidence you need and follow the trail of scum until you hear the head hiss. Then you whack the hell out of the head with the ban hammer and the rest of the snake (the tail - the grunts we report) die with it. Let me put it in another geeky way. An analogy: SETI has been listening to the stars for 50+ years. Scanning the sky, picking stars pretty much at random, doing sweeps of the sky in random and known ways. All of which has produced... silence. Today, some 50+ years later, scientists in completely unrelated fields have developed technology which allows them to locate and report stars with planetary systems having planets of known mass, atmosphere and such. SETI, in response, now points their radio telescopes at the stars that are known to have planets more than they point them anywhere else, especially the stars that are thought to have Earth sized or near Earth sized planets. Why? Because it increases the chances considerably that they might hear some radio waves leaking into space if those Earth-like planets harbor intelligent life. In much the same way... CCP GMs are SETI. Players are the scientists forging new tools that will allow CCP to focus in on the most likely locations of intelligent life (literally). This is such complete unmitigated bull**** that its not funny. You are clueless. CCP will accept NO DATA from your site. It won't happen. Ever. There is no point in petitioning botters unless you know FOR SURE that they are involved in RMT. No point because CCP REQUIRES them to keep botting otherwise the economy (heh there's a laugh) will collapse. The game is built upon a foundation of cheating. A foundation that CCP has been well aware of since bots first appeared. CCP condones cheating. While they do there is no point in petitioning anyone not RMTing.
Mina Sebiestar	Posted - 2011.02.27 09:38:00 - [1292] sometime I'm sad that there is no really another awesome space game on the market. sometime i just wish/like now/that this game just die. botting is in control of parts of game awesome then again i will leave this game anyway but no harm in supporting this i might come back who knows.
Hoya en Marland	Posted - 2011.02.27 09:40:00 - [1293] Bottom line: only CCP has power to banish the botters. Since they are clearly refusing to do so, for the reasons being pretty obvious and well exposed in this thread, there's really nothing that we as community can do. Reporting some poor sob every now and then (for 1 day ban lol), or ganking him, is nothing more than scratching the surface of the massive iceberg.
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2011.02.27 10:59:00 - [1294] Edited by: Kogh Ayon on 27/02/2011 11:00:25 Edited by: Kogh Ayon on 27/02/2011 10:59:58 Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Might as well hire thugs to go to your enemies houses and beat them up at their computers too. It is a good idea! This EVE style gameplay will be encouraged. Let's do it from agitating the GMs under petition section first.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.27 13:52:00 - [1295] Originally by: Othran This is such complete unmitigated bull**** that its not funny. You are clueless. CCP will accept NO DATA from your site. It won't happen. Ever. There is no point in petitioning botters unless you know FOR SURE that they are involved in RMT. No point because CCP REQUIRES them to keep botting otherwise the economy (heh there's a laugh) will collapse. The game is built upon a foundation of cheating. A foundation that CCP has been well aware of since bots first appeared. CCP condones cheating. While they do there is no point in petitioning anyone not RMTing. Yes, you've clearly indicated a number of times in this thread that you think the whole thing is pointless, that everyone here, but you, apparently, is clueless, that CCP will accept no data, etc. etc. We get it - you disagree with anything anybody in this game tries to do to beat botters - unless it's CCP itself. Some of us choose to fight the good fight - some of us choose to sit around with our thumbs up our bungholes and nay-say and trash the good work of others for our own self-righteous ego's. You, my friend, fall into the latter category. I have it on good authority that CCP will accept petitions for bots. How those petitions are generated is not CCP's problem, but they will accept petitions. Amazingly, reportbots.com generates them. Who'd have thunk it? A third-party site designed to work in conjunction with CCP towards putting a dent in this problem. Wow. F'ing amazing! As for how clueless I am... are you working with CCP to resolve this issue? Have you been talking to the people there, getting to know them, what they need, how you can help them? Have you read all the relevant data and understand the scope of the problem? Have you sketched out your plans for how you can even try to help solve the problem? No? I have. So, who is clueless? You are. You have no clue what you're even talking about except to spout off some crap about vague rules in the EULA which we all already agree isn't enforced and to continue to bash those of us who are working with CCP and who do understand the problem from an entirely different perspective - a perspective you elect not to be open minded enough to accept. So you, my friend, are the clueless one. Besides, I've already said I don't really care if it's fail. It makes me sleep better at night. :P Clearly your only point in being in this thread is to troll and to try and convince others that there is no point to fighting the bot problem. Not once have you said anything positive about anything posted by anybody in this thread. At this point, I'm pretty much convinced that you're a botter. Only a botter would fight so diligently to make others feel that trying to solve a problem the players have never tried to solve on their own before is pointless, despite all the evidence to the contrary. So, kudos for trying to hide behind the thin veil of intelligence, botter. But your days, like all the other botters in New Eden's, are numbered - so fight as hard as you can to convince the players that reporting bots is pointless. Be my guest. You'll still lose that fight. You're on the wrong side of the moral compass, friend. One last thought... what makes hulkageddon so successful at dealing so much damage to so many people in such a short amount of time? I'll give you a clue - massive player effort. What I'm proposing is no different.
Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2011.02.27 14:01:00 - [1296] Originally by: Consortium Agent I have it on good authority that CCP will accept petitions for bots. How those petitions are generated is not CCP's problem, but they will accept petitions. Amazingly, reportbots.com generates them. Who'd have thunk it? A third-party site designed to work in conjunction with CCP towards putting a dent in this problem. Wow. F'ing amazing! why so angry? From what I have heard so far both of you are right. CCP won't ban anyone based on data collected by a third party. But they will look into petitions (and then ban or not based on their own internal data) and collecting data might help a 3rd party to decide whether to bother with writing a petition or not.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.02.27 14:18:00 - [1297] Originally by: Consortium Agent ...about vague rules in the EULA which we all already agree isn't enforced ... Have they ever stated why these rules aren't enforced? Or indicated that the rules in question will be removed? Or said any words on any topic whatsoever?
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact	Posted - 2011.02.27 14:20:00 - [1298] Originally by: Consortium Agent I have it on good authority that CCP will accept petitions for bots. How those petitions are generated is not CCP's problem, but they will accept petitions. Ironic that they accept petitions generated by, what is basically, a bot, about bots. What would complete this irony is if the first tier of GM's are themselves bots. EVE won't be killed by bots, it will be a zombie MMO, one that is played by and GM'd by bots. All that is needed now is a bot that does pvp and we can all stop playing. By the way, real men biomass when they emoragequit.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.27 14:26:00 - [1299] Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium Originally by: Consortium Agent I have it on good authority that CCP will accept petitions for bots. How those petitions are generated is not CCP's problem, but they will accept petitions. Ironic that they accept petitions generated by, what is basically, a bot, about bots. What would complete this irony is if the first tier of GM's are themselves bots. EVE won't be killed by bots, it will be a zombie MMO, one that is played by and GM'd by bots. All that is needed now is a bot that does pvp and we can all stop playing. Err... only if you define 'bot' with a very, very broad brush. reportbots.com isn't a bot - it's a tool human players can use to easily generate bot petitions (among other things) after having sought-out and found bots in-game. It's the closest thing to 'right-click -> report suspected bot' as I can get without working for CCP :) Tho I do agree that if the human players don't do something to try and solve the problem that eventually this will be a zombie MMO that is played and GM'd by bots. Hence why I'm here.
yorkie2	Posted - 2011.02.27 14:33:00 - [1300] Feel strongly bout this subject ? Then Boycott the fanfest CCP have shown not evidence in combating bots or RMT so don't show any interest in the fanfest this year until they do something. The fanfest is like CCP's AGM for its players the players are the investors and ccp is ignoring us.

Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.27 14:35:00 - [1301] Edited by: Consortium Agent on 27/02/2011 14:35:59 Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Originally by: Consortium Agent I have it on good authority that CCP will accept petitions for bots. How those petitions are generated is not CCP's problem, but they will accept petitions. Amazingly, reportbots.com generates them. Who'd have thunk it? A third-party site designed to work in conjunction with CCP towards putting a dent in this problem. Wow. F'ing amazing! why so angry? From what I have heard so far both of you are right. CCP won't ban anyone based on data collected by a third party. But they will look into petitions (and then ban or not based on their own internal data) and collecting data might help a 3rd party to decide whether to bother with writing a petition or not. I'm not angry... I'm simply fighting as strenuously as I can for my position. :) I would much prefer this thread to end up being more about what we can do to solve the problem than about how pointless trying to find solutions are. That's all. And yes, you have put it more eloquently than I was able to in my posts so far. I'm not collecting data for CCP - I'm collecting data for players. I'm generating petitions for CCP. Hand-in-hand they work together to help the players help themselves solve the bot problem (or at least put a dent in it). I suppose having realized how prevalent botters are in the game, having realized how easy they are to spot, having realized how easy many of them are to gank and having made a handful of botters rage-quit this game I got a little excited and thought everyone else would want to be on board for something totally epic. Something never tried. Something that makes a definite statement to the botters that they are not welcome here by the players.
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact	Posted - 2011.02.27 14:58:00 - [1302] Originally by: Consortium Agent Edited by: Consortium Agent on 27/02/2011 14:52:09 Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium Originally by: Consortium Agent I have it on good authority that CCP will accept petitions for bots. How those petitions are generated is not CCP's problem, but they will accept petitions. Ironic that they accept petitions generated by, what is basically, a bot, about bots. What would complete this irony is if the first tier of GM's are themselves bots. EVE won't be killed by bots, it will be a zombie MMO, one that is played by and GM'd by bots. All that is needed now is a bot that does pvp and we can all stop playing. Err... only if you define 'bot' with a very, very broad brush. reportbots.com isn't a bot - it's a tool human players can use to easily generate bot petitions (among other things) after having sought-out and found bots in-game. It's the closest thing to 'right-click -> report suspected bot' as I can get without working for CCP :) Edit: reportbots.com does not generate and send petitions to CCP. It simply generates a copy & paste text the human player can then use to file a petition with CCP. Tho I do agree that if the human players don't do something to try and solve the problem that eventually this will be a zombie MMO that is played and GM'd by bots. Hence why I'm here. Ah, I see, well at least your doing something. That's a lot more than can be said for some folks. By the way, real men biomass when they emoragequit.
Helicity Boson Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.02.27 15:16:00 - [1303] I will gladly allow myself to be hired by CCP, for the miserable pay they give, to go forth into New Eden and ban every botter personally. You have my contact details CCP. love, Your friendly neighbourhood Terrorist.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.02.27 16:20:00 - [1304] Originally by: yorkie2 Feel strongly bout this subject ? Then Boycott the fanfest ... or go dressed up as a robot...
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.02.27 17:04:00 - [1305] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: yorkie2 Feel strongly bout this subject ? Then Boycott the fanfest ... or go dressed up as a robot... ... and run away & hide every time you spot another player or CCP employee? sounds awesome
Kizz Amarr Amarr	Posted - 2011.02.27 19:32:00 - [1306] CCP are responsible for the mechanics of the game. It is their baby so to speak. CCP understand the mechanics of the game can be used by third party software to play the game in the absense of a 'hands-on' player and/or in coordination with a hands-on player. Therefore, CCP are permitting the users to employ third party software to play the game. The game belongs to CCP, they own it and have the right to change it at will. AS they clearly acknowledge third party software is permitted to run on their platform, they are supporting it. If they support it, so can the players. The difference between a player and CCP, CCP Own the game, Players pay to play a game in accordance with CCP's Rules. K.Amarr.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.27 22:03:00 - [1307] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 27/02/2011 22:03:57 Im boycotting fanfest; I wasnt going anyways lol but Ill pretend that Im boycotting it Originally by: Helicity Boson I will gladly allow myself to be hired by CCP, for the miserable pay they give, to go forth into New Eden and ban every botter personally. You have my contact details CCP. love, Your friendly neighbourhood Terrorist. LOL LOL well then again, with the caliber of the ppl they already have you might have a shot ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.02.28 03:39:00 - [1308] Edited by: Arnakoz on 28/02/2011 03:40:00 Originally by: Kizz Amarr CCP are responsible for the mechanics of the game. It is their baby so to speak. CCP understand the mechanics of the game can be used by third party software to play the game in the absense of a 'hands-on' player and/or in coordination with a hands-on player. Therefore, CCP are permitting the users to employ third party software to play the game. The game belongs to CCP, they own it and have the right to change it at will. AS they clearly acknowledge third party software is permitted to run on their platform, they are supporting it. If they support it, so can the players. The difference between a player and CCP, CCP Own the game, Players pay to play a game in accordance with CCP's Rules. your logic would only work if there were actually a way to stop bots. simple matter of the fact is that nothing they do will stop it. lets go thru the ropes here.. CCP: make it so that people mining have to enter a code or answer a question every so often. Bots: will implement already-existing captcha software. CCP: starts tracking the times and activities of miners Bots: start randomizing delays and logging in/out at different times CCP: allows players to issue 2 hour no-mining bans for suspected botting Bots: add courier mission abilities for those time frames. CCP: adds spyware on players computers, like blizzard. Bots: use languages and functions not detected by spyware. or even hack spyware itself to spoof OK responses. CCP: covertly collects a massive list of bot accounts and perma-bans them all at once. bots: haha, ccp just lost 60% of its player base and broke the market into pieces. lets get some more accounts set up! CCP: randomizes buttons and dropdown menus. bots: add OCR to software. i could go on forever. but hopefully you get my point by now. IMHO the only decent option is for CCP to increase the yield and total volume of ore. this would flood the market with minerals to the point that botting simply wouldn't be worth the risk. but neither would mining.... but atleast manufacturing would have a chance. until the idiots that sell for less than cost figure out they're making a profit...
Lithalnas Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2011.02.28 04:52:00 - [1309] I would like to see a more proactive CCP response to bots, finding and banning bots proactively so that the industry can never get up and running. And for those who say IP banning or account banning doesnt work. I have a proposal for you, you are right the two before mentioned methods of banning have simple work arounds however there is one kind of ID that cannot be changed, the CPU id number. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPUID If you banned by CPUID then the botters would have to change out CPU's every time they are banned or hack the client to auto OK the check. But if i remember correctly, intel implemented these functionalities in a sort of non spoof-able manor to prevent CPU re-branding. -------------
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.28 05:04:00 - [1310] Edited by: Batolemaeus on 28/02/2011 05:05:03 Originally by: Arnakoz your logic would only work if there were actually a way to stop bots. simple matter of the fact is that nothing they do will stop it. You're both wrong and right. Nothing CCP will do will stop botting, as they have fully embraced botting. Case in point: PI, that could be completely automated with an autohotkey script. That eliminating botting is impossible, however, is complete bull**. Bots can't even properly compete against a human in Go, let alone in computer games that require any high level strategy. Using game design to make botting completely pointless is not just possible, it's almost a direct result of good game design. It is only when the design is so mechanical and terrible, like with PI, mining, ratting and so on, that bots have any niche to exist. The current situation of mandated botting is a direct result of the incompetence and lack of vision of the CCP "game designers". Originally by:** Lithalnas If you banned by CPUID then the botters would have to change out CPU's every time they are banned or hack the client to auto OK the check. But if i remember correctly, intel implemented these functionalities in a sort of non spoof-able manor to prevent CPU re-branding. Ohi. I'm a virtual machine. Try to identify me.

riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.02.28 07:00:00 - [1311] Originally by: Batolemaeus Edited by: Batolemaeus on 28/02/2011 05:05:03 Originally by: Arnakoz your logic would only work if there were actually a way to stop bots. simple matter of the fact is that nothing they do will stop it. You're both wrong and right. Nothing CCP will do will stop botting, as they have fully embraced botting. Case in point: PI, that could be completely automated with an autohotkey script. That eliminating botting is impossible, however, is complete bull**. Bots can't even properly compete against a human in Go, let alone in computer games that require any high level strategy. Using game design to make botting completely pointless is not just possible, it's almost a direct result of good game design. It is only when the design is so mechanical and terrible, like with PI, mining, ratting and so on, that bots have any niche to exist. The current situation of mandated botting is a direct result of the incompetence and lack of vision of the CCP "game designers". Originally by:** Lithalnas If you banned by CPUID then the botters would have to change out CPU's every time they are banned or hack the client to auto OK the check. But if i remember correctly, intel implemented these functionalities in a sort of non spoof-able manor to prevent CPU re-branding. Ohi. I'm a virtual machine. Try to identify me. I wouldn't be surprised if there were already PI bots, but tbh the most profitable bots out there are the market ones, just put a buy/sell order in jita and check out how quickly they undercut you for 0.01 isk, it's madness...
knobber Jobbler Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2011.02.28 08:30:00 - [1312] not sure why people think getting rid of bots will screw up the market. it could actually cause prices to fall as demand eventually drops. pvp is the market driver in eve. without isk from bots, the botters won't be able to afford anything. t2 isn't affected by bots other than what botters spend money on. t2 prices might actually go down. only t1 is affected by botters but I'd put money on carebear mission runners still being the core supply of t1 modules. you might find a temporary increase as former botters buy up what they can but first supply will outstrip demand due to an excess of botters minerals but eventually supply and demand will even out as it has in the past. this is because the former botters have to replace pvp ships with honest isk and minerals are mined honestly. also take into account some botters will have billions stashed away which will cause devaluation but even that will eventually be spent and blown up or spent on plex.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.02.28 10:07:00 - [1313] Originally by: knobber Jobbler t2 isn't affected by bots other than what botters spend money on. t2 prices might actually go down. Suggestion: Only people who understand how the eve economy works are allowed to partake in this discussion. By the way, PI and ice macros factor heavily into the end price of t2 goods.
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2011.02.28 10:52:00 - [1314] Originally by: Arnakoz Edited by: Arnakoz on 28/02/2011 03:40:00 Originally by: Kizz Amarr CCP are responsible for the mechanics of the game. It is their baby so to speak. CCP understand the mechanics of the game can be used by third party software to play the game in the absense of a 'hands-on' player and/or in coordination with a hands-on player. Therefore, CCP are permitting the users to employ third party software to play the game. The game belongs to CCP, they own it and have the right to change it at will. AS they clearly acknowledge third party software is permitted to run on their platform, they are supporting it. If they support it, so can the players. The difference between a player and CCP, CCP Own the game, Players pay to play a game in accordance with CCP's Rules. your logic would only work if there were actually a way to stop bots. simple matter of the fact is that nothing they do will stop it. lets go thru the ropes here.. CCP: make it so that people mining have to enter a code or answer a question every so often. Bots: will implement already-existing captcha software. CCP: starts tracking the times and activities of miners Bots: start randomizing delays and logging in/out at different times CCP: allows players to issue 2 hour no-mining bans for suspected botting Bots: add courier mission abilities for those time frames. CCP: adds spyware on players computers, like blizzard. Bots: use languages and functions not detected by spyware. or even hack spyware itself to spoof OK responses. CCP: covertly collects a massive list of bot accounts and perma-bans them all at once. bots: haha, ccp just lost 60% of its player base and broke the market into pieces. lets get some more accounts set up! CCP: randomizes buttons and dropdown menus. bots: add OCR to software. i could go on forever. but hopefully you get my point by now. IMHO the only decent option is for CCP to increase the yield and total volume of ore. this would flood the market with minerals to the point that botting simply wouldn't be worth the risk. but neither would mining.... but atleast manufacturing would have a chance. until the idiots that sell for less than cost figure out they're making a profit... What ever you do. A bot need to be online and active in pve many hours everyday. Mechine-like-real-players? OK it is what we gonna ban also.
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.02.28 12:45:00 - [1315] Originally by: Arnakoz Edited by: Arnakoz on 28/02/2011 03:40:00 Originally by: Kizz Amarr CCP are responsible for the mechanics of the game. It is their baby so to speak. CCP understand the mechanics of the game can be used by third party software to play the game in the absense of a 'hands-on' player and/or in coordination with a hands-on player. Therefore, CCP are permitting the users to employ third party software to play the game. The game belongs to CCP, they own it and have the right to change it at will. AS they clearly acknowledge third party software is permitted to run on their platform, they are supporting it. If they support it, so can the players. The difference between a player and CCP, CCP Own the game, Players pay to play a game in accordance with CCP's Rules. your logic would only work if there were actually a way to stop bots. simple matter of the fact is that nothing they do will stop it. lets go thru the ropes here.. CCP: make it so that people mining have to enter a code or answer a question every so often. Bots: will implement already-existing captcha software. CCP: starts tracking the times and activities of miners Bots: start randomizing delays and logging in/out at different times CCP: allows players to issue 2 hour no-mining bans for suspected botting Bots: add courier mission abilities for those time frames. CCP: adds spyware on players computers, like blizzard. Bots: use languages and functions not detected by spyware. or even hack spyware itself to spoof OK responses. CCP: covertly collects a massive list of bot accounts and perma-bans them all at once. bots: haha, ccp just lost 60% of its player base and broke the market into pieces. lets get some more accounts set up! CCP: randomizes buttons and dropdown menus. bots: add OCR to software. i could go on forever. but hopefully you get my point by now. They don't have to stop all bots, that is unrealistic, if they can force botters to make their bots 'work' at more human rates not 23/7, not 10+ hrs a day THAT is a 'victory' with more work CCP can detect those that run on set schedules and force some randomization which further can reduce their effectiveness. Through detecting of isk transfers they can shut them down and botters need more bots to keepup or botting declines. More bots working 'less' hours each still leaves them vulenrable to detection and banning, this lowers the ROI on making new accounts and starting over botting. Even if CCP can't break botting like that they can force botters to do more than make a program, tweak the script then bot for 6-12 months before they have to make an adjustment to it. The more downtime botters have to deal with both in keeping their programs updated and in actual playtime the more CCP 'wins' the bot war. If they slack off then botters adapt and continue. RMT bots have more of a stake in a long term ROI with less hours of running bots and more accounts the casual player or non RMT botter who doesn't have the same stake where they are just trying to get isk for 'free' they are much more deterred by a delay in ROI over a RMT botter. The defeatist attitude gets us nothing, you don't 'win' by giving up, unless all you are interested in is not fighting. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.02.28 12:55:00 - [1316] Originally by: Lithalnas If you banned by CPUID then the botters would have to change out CPU's every time they are banned or hack the client to auto OK the check. But if i remember correctly, intel implemented these functionalities in a sort of non spoof-able manor to prevent CPU re-branding. Don't quote me, but I would hazard a guess that CPU ID can be spoofed.
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.02.28 12:59:00 - [1317] Originally by: Consortium Agent Originally by: Nina Mercedez Integral, and essential. I'd like to see them give some people GM powers, not paid or anything, and have them go find bots, and amass solid proof. Have IA monitor them, of course. Hell, I'd volunteer, it's not like I do anything in Eve outside chatting nowadays anyway. w00t! In that case, how about you volunteer to go find bots and report them using reportbots.com/report/ and then file a petition with the people who do have the GM powers? Not really that much different from what you propose - ultimately the GM (not the IA) have control over who get's the ban hammer anyway, so if you don't do much more than chat now - put that chatbox to work for you and start talking to suspected bots, figure out their other behaviors (reportbots.com/university/), and file your reports and petitions! Thanks for that.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.02.28 13:10:00 - [1318] Edited by: Consortium Agent on 28/02/2011 13:15:20 Originally by: Kizz Amarr CCP are responsible for the mechanics of the game. It is their baby so to speak. CCP understand the mechanics of the game can be used by third party software to play the game in the absense of a 'hands-on' player and/or in coordination with a hands-on player. Therefore, CCP are permitting the users to employ third party software to play the game. The game belongs to CCP, they own it and have the right to change it at will. AS they clearly acknowledge third party software is permitted to run on their platform, they are supporting it. If they support it, so can the players. The difference between a player and CCP, CCP Own the game, Players pay to play a game in accordance with CCP's Rules. Precisely. Eve is CCP's product and therefore it is up to CCP to enforce it's EULA. However, there is one piece of EULA terminolodgy that some people tend to forget is there, which states something to the effect of: Failure to enforce any policies set forth in this EULA does not negate any of the policies set forth in this EULA. In short, companies put this in there to cover their legal arses. CCP can have as many rules as they like, but they don't have to enforce them and it's long and clearly been established that they don't enforce them as stringently as we would like in regards to bot activities. That is their decision as a company and, as others have stated, we have few options... The first is to not be a paying customer. To give up Eve and go play, I dunno... something else spacey perhaps. The second is to keep pressure on CCP to make the changes that will break the bots for as long as they can possibly break them and permaban the ones we/they find. The third is to take matters into our own hands, so to speak, and have botageddon. Trust me when I tell you that you take out a fleet of hulks - it hurts the botters. Keep hammering them every time you see them, and most will come to the conclusion that they're not welcome and can't bot when they're constantly under attack (or in cases of rat bots, constantly trying to avoid neutral players). So, to rehash: 1. CCP has a EULA it does not have to enforce (as does every other company in the world) 2. CCP has a long, rich history of not enforcing their EULA to the degree we think it should be enforced 3. CCP has always avoided this subject like black death. Find me one response in 6 years from CCP about this, and I'll be impressed. 4. Players feel not enforcing the EULA gives some players (botters) an unfair advantage over other players (humans) 5. Players can choose to leave Eve 6. Players can choose to continue to pressure CCP to enforce their EULA - which they haven't done in 6 years. 7. Players can start locating, reporting (petition) and killing as many bots as they can find on a regular basis Some have chosen to leave, most have chosen to be miffed about CCPs failure to enforce their EULA to the degree we feel it should be enforced and continue to put pressure on CCP in forums such as this one, and few of us have the audacity, the balls and the desire to take down as many botters as we possibly can. Won't you join us? If you care so much about the bot problem and you know CCP isn't going to change how they approach it - isn't it time we just took care of the problem ourselves?
Hoya en Marland	Posted - 2011.02.28 13:30:00 - [1319] Edited by: Hoya en Marland on 28/02/2011 13:36:14 @Consortium Agent You are reminding me a lot to Don Quixote. Because I am pretty sure it's not only that CCP doesn't need our help - they don't want it, they love botters. Anyway, I wish you luck in your little mission. o7
knobber Jobbler Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2011.02.28 14:51:00 - [1320] Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: knobber Jobbler t2 isn't affected by bots other than what botters spend money on. t2 prices might actually go down. Suggestion: Only people who understand how the eve economy works are allowed to partake in this discussion. By the way, PI and ice macros factor heavily into the end price of t2 goods. well there you probably want to ignore most post here then as basic economics has escaped most of the pages of this thread. there is enough player driven of both to make sure bots don't factor in. in the ice fields near me I've not once seen a single bot in there. they are a different scale to the ratting bots seen down south which have a severe effect on the eve economy.

Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.28 17:45:00 - [1321] Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium Originally by: Consortium Agent I have it on good authority that CCP will accept petitions for bots. How those petitions are generated is not CCP's problem, but they will accept petitions. Ironic that they accept petitions generated by, what is basically, a bot, about bots. What would complete this irony is if the first tier of GM's are themselves bots. I wouldnt be surprised... you ever try to talk to a GM? it seems like talking to smartbot lol ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.02.28 17:50:00 - [1322] Originally by: Consortium Agent 4. Players feel not enforcing the EULA gives some players (botters) an unfair advantage over other players (humans) YEAH this is the ONLY time theyve ever done this..... T20 anyone? they basically dont punish the dev OR the alliance OR the group of ppl that knew he was a dev and knew they were taking illegal items. ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.02.28 18:20:00 - [1323] Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: knobber Jobbler t2 isn't affected by bots other than what botters spend money on. t2 prices might actually go down. Suggestion: Only people who understand how the eve economy works are allowed to partake in this discussion. By the way, PI and ice macros factor heavily into the end price of t2 goods. Suggestion: A very large part of t2 price is determined by moon minerals (you know technetium, what your alliance is sitting on and selling for enormous profits). In one of their not-more-than-usual idiotic moments CCP decided it was fun to have a fixed influx of high end moon minerals. When botters are killed (irl) then they wont buy t2 anymore, same supply, less demand = lower prices.
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.28 18:30:00 - [1324] Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 28/02/2011 18:30:19 Originally by: Furb Killer When botters are killed (irl) then they wont buy t2 anymore, same supply, less demand = lower prices. Well, you have to admit Mineral prices will rise, along with the value of loot (it's made of minerals), increasing the price of everything a bit, and increasing the earnings of most people a bit. Yeah, basicly nothing changes for the worse, really. Maybe .. just MAYBE T1 production will be viable again?
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.02.28 18:34:00 - [1325] to your information - excessive ISK from botting, => inflation, battleships cost 90 mill a piece, then 100 mill, then even 110 mill. As more people get involved in botting, they go on market and buy equipment. They have higher income in ISKs, so casual players find it more difficult to buy equipment. IT can be observed in PLEX and Character market too, influx of ISKs devalues the currency. Everything takes more isk, isk value goes down.
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.28 18:41:00 - [1326] Originally by: Opertone to your information - excessive ISK from botting, => inflation, battleships cost 90 mill a piece, then 100 mill, then even 110 mill. As more people get involved in botting, they go on market and buy equipment. They have higher income in ISKs, so casual players find it more difficult to buy equipment. IT can be observed in PLEX and Character market too, influx of ISKs devalues the currency. Everything takes more isk, isk value goes down. Aggravated by the fact that botters devalue minerals (mining bots) at the same time they cause ISK inflation (ratting bots). I'm not smart enough to draw a conclusion from that but I think it's very bad.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.02.28 19:42:00 - [1327] Edited by: Arnakoz on 28/02/2011 19:43:45 Originally by: Opertone to your information - excessive ISK from botting, => inflation, battleships cost 90 mill a piece, then 100 mill, then even 110 mill. As more people get involved in botting, they go on market and buy equipment. They have higher income in ISKs, so casual players find it more difficult to buy equipment. IT can be observed in PLEX and Character market too, influx of ISKs devalues the currency. Everything takes more isk, isk value goes down. actually the opposite happens. since botters dont buy battleship or any of the fittings they dont contribute to demand. only in the hulk and crystal areas. However, they flood the market with vastly more minerals than is really needed, causing the price to drop, which translates into lower costs for the production of the battleships and fittings and CAN (most likely does) translate into all of those items being cheaper. but to the point that bots have alts which use the isk for their PvP ships etc. you are right. but i still dont care as 1. i cannot see the demand from pvp mains outwieghing the massive extra supply - unless they also pvp 23/7. 2. it also means that everyone else can pvp more - which keeps the market going and the indy;s happy. i do get the point that large alliances hold more sov than they should be able to based on their botting prowess. if i were the lead of a well organized alliance with T2 BPOs and moon mining POSs all set up and churning day and night, yet simply couldn't get more room to grow in nullsec because all the local territory was claimed by a huge botting alliance that wasn't willing to cut deals, then i would be ****ed too.
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.28 19:53:00 - [1328] Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 28/02/2011 19:53:17 Originally by: Arnakoz actually the opposite happens. since botters dont buy battleship or any of the fittings they dont contribute to demand. only in the hulk and crystal areas. However, they flood the market with vastly more minerals than is really needed, causing the price to drop, which translates into lower costs for the production of the battleships and fittings and CAN (most likely does) translate into all of those items being cheaper. You miss the point spectacularly. 1) Ratting Bots commonly fly Battleships. 2) Lower Mineral prices don't only mean stuff is cheaper - it also means the common player earns LESS. At best this keeps prices stable, but most likely causing stuff to cost more effective ISK which in itself becomes less valuable due to botting. Originally by: Arnakoz but to the point that bots have alts which use the isk for their PvP ships etc. you are right. but i still dont care as 1. i cannot see the demand from pvp mains outwieghing the massive extra supply - unless they also pvp 23/7. 2. it also means that everyone else can pvp more - which keeps the market going and the indy;s happy. Same as above: 1) Those who bot for PvP pretty much PvP exclusively, all the time. Something they couldn't afford otherwise. 2) You can PvP more against people you cannot defeat by causing significant losses while you certainly lose ISK. Lose - Lose situation.
Grey Stormshadow	Posted - 2011.02.28 20:11:00 - [1329] Originally by: Angel of Night Originally by: Arnakoz all I'm trying to say is that bots are already integral to our eve experience and can't be gotten rid of. so why care?.. Really simple and short answer is 'better overall pvp balance, more interesting and appealing 0.0 space, more active community'. Let's try to stay on the topic again... The first 2 lines above explain in nutshell what the real problem is and the last 2 lines introduce the game without first 2 lines. Now... we either want to get rid of 1st 2 lines or last 2 lines. How and why are good questions. Market talk and blame game won't take us anywhere.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.02.28 21:13:00 - [1330] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 28/02/2011 19:53:17 You miss the point spectacularly. 1) Ratting Bots commonly fly Battleships. 2) Lower Mineral prices don't only mean stuff is cheaper - it also means the common player earns LESS. At best this keeps prices stable, but most likely causing stuff to cost more effective ISK which in itself becomes less valuable due to botting. i see your point there. i hadn't considered ratting bots. i'm sure those players that use macros would have never bought any of that stuff if it weren't for the macros. besides, are ratting bots even common? i can't say i've ever seen/suspected one. and yes, manufacturers earn less, but everyone else saves on their purchases. however, if minerals prices went UP due to less supply then the manufacturers would also make less..... so not sure which way is worse tbh. but with that said, i'm not even sure if the bots are fully responsible for the prices of end product being low, as lots of players think mined ore == free and sell at a loss. but either way. Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 28/02/2011 19:53:17 Same as above: 1) Those who bot for PvP pretty much PvP exclusively, all the time. Something they couldn't afford otherwise. 2) You can PvP more against people you cannot defeat by causing significant losses while you certainly lose ISK. Lose - Lose situation. right, but "PvP exclusively" still doesn't mean anything unless they lose a LOT more ships than they would have otherwise. which i'm sure they loose "more ships" but i'm saying they dont loose enough to outwiegh the effect that their bots have. think of it this way - you have 100 lbs pulling up and 1000 pulling down. yes, their is an upwards force, but it isn't accomplishing much. but yes, pvp against a person who has a large income sucks. and if it boils down to people having otherwise equal skills and abilities then yes it becomes an ISK game, at which point botting sucks.

Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.02.28 22:11:00 - [1331] I asked these before but did not get an answer. Are the bots so prevalent that we no longer have a player driven economy? CCP advertises that EVE has a player driven economy. If this is not true, is CCP breaking the law by engaging in false advertising? Is there a government agency that needs to be notified?
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.28 22:21:00 - [1332] Originally by: Vincent Athena I asked these before but did not get an answer. Are the bots so prevalent that we no longer have a player driven economy? CCP advertises that EVE has a player driven economy. If this is not true, is CCP breaking the law by engaging in false advertising? Hard to venture an at least somewhat educated guess. I think it's still mostly player run, botting shouldn't account for more than 20-30% of goods generated. Worst case I can imagine atm. is a 50% share. There are certain things Bots categorically don't do, altho they might support many such things with ISK/Minerals. Originally by: Vincent Athena Is there a government agency that needs to be notified? Interpol might be interested in hearing about potential money laundering and tax evasion through RMT.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.28 22:55:00 - [1333] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Well, you have to admit Mineral prices will rise, along with the value of loot (it's made of minerals) Meta 1-4 not so much. Theyre drop only so that wouldnt matter and that stuff id better than the meta 0 stuff so I actually dont think this stuff would change. ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Bloody Rabbit	Posted - 2011.02.28 22:58:00 - [1334] CCP, Lets not point fingers at who or what, just start restricting accounts after they are caught botting. So that the account can not sign-in till they speak to a GM. That way it will hassle them and hopefully get the semi-pro botters out of botting so that you can focus on cracking down on the pro botters that RMT. If you put in a program that would restrict accounts caught botting then you could do a PR push to get players to report botting. Currently the player base doesn't care to report as there is little in the way of action. By action I mean reporting the same players over and over as they warp around with a pod and still those same players are on day after day. Fix the botting issue and you will fix most of the RMT issues; don't fix botting and you won't fix RMT and you can kiss EVE goodbye as players do not wish to compete with those who have endless resources from botting. Sincerely, A player who currently has 7 accounts being cut down to 5 and possible quitting all together. PS I have been playing eve since late 06, I am tired of competing against those who use bots so they can have endless resources and this is coming from a player with over 100 billion in isk and assets. PSS all assets will go to a former corp if I do quit so don't ask
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.02.28 23:01:00 - [1335] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Meta 1-4 not so much. Theyre drop only so that wouldnt matter and that stuff id better than the meta 0 stuff so I actually dont think this stuff would change. This holds true for Meta 4 and sometimes 3, but 1 and 2 tend to be only worth their mineral contents.
Bloody Rabbit	Posted - 2011.02.28 23:05:00 - [1336] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Hard to venture an at least somewhat educated guess. I think it's still mostly player run, botting shouldn't account for more than 20-30% of goods generated. Worst case I can imagine atm. is a 50% share. There are certain things Bots categorically don't do, altho they might support many such things with ISK/Minerals. Interpol might be interested in hearing about potential money laundering and tax evasion through RMT. First current software trading platforms are trading stock markets and bond markets in real life so there is nothing that players can do that bots can not do. Second, governments don't care about a game that can't break a billion in revenue across the globe so, no, there is no government that would care about RMT in a game. Lets focus on the RMT and botting as it effects the players and what the players will do in response if it is not fixed.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.02.28 23:07:00 - [1337] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Meta 1-4 not so much. Theyre drop only so that wouldnt matter and that stuff id better than the meta 0 stuff so I actually dont think this stuff would change. This holds true for Meta 4 and sometimes 3, but 1 and 2 tend to be only worth their mineral contents. so.... where do I get the BPOs for them? cause so far as Im constantly told you cant an theyre drop only cause if you cant construct them then they have no mineral contents... or are you talking reprocessing? Thats a bit suspect... I have yet to reprocess a arbelest heavy launcher and get 14 plus million in minerals out of it ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.01 00:29:00 - [1338] Edited by: Arnakoz on 01/03/2011 00:34:40 in my experience, most of the faction type stuff is gotten through random rat droppings (rarely) faction rats (which are even more rare) and mostly as rewards from missions and purchased with LP. and i think he's talking about refined value.
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.03.01 00:36:00 - [1339] Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 01/03/2011 00:36:49 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira so.... where do I get the BPOs for them? cause so far as Im constantly told you cant an theyre drop only cause if you cant construct them then they have no mineral contents... or are you talking reprocessing? Thats a bit suspect... I have yet to reprocess a arbelest heavy launcher and get 14 plus million in minerals out of it BPOs don't normally exist from what I can tell. Capital modules might be an exception. I'm not a researcher or manufacturer. And yes, I talk about reprocessing. Arbalest is Meta 4 - I said Meta 1 and 2 commonly only cost their value in minerals. You chose Heavy Launchers as an example, the most skewed item category in Jita, hence, even if the Meta 1 Launcher was worth more than its reprocess: it's irrelevant since what I said is true for 98% of all common items.
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.03.01 00:43:00 - [1340] Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 01/03/2011 00:44:38 Originally by: Bloody Rabbit Second, governments don't care about a game that can't break a billion in revenue across the globe so, no, there is no government that would care about RMT in a game. Since when is Interpol a government? Besides, I just tried to answer his question. Did I say FBI, Gendarmerie or any such bull****? No, I said Interpol. Have a look at their homepage. I didn't say they would be very interested, but they wouldn't tell you to shut your piehole either, especially if it turns out that some people finance their life through RMT without paying taxes - or worse, use RMT for money laundering - which is easy. Why do you think CCP hates RMT? #Edit: I also just netted post 1337 in this thread.

Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.01 00:44:00 - [1341] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 01/03/2011 00:38:05 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira so.... where do I get the BPOs for them? cause so far as Im constantly told you cant an theyre drop only cause if you cant construct them then they have no mineral contents... or are you talking reprocessing? Thats a bit suspect... I have yet to reprocess a arbelest heavy launcher and get 14 plus million in minerals out of it BPOs don't normally exist from what I can tell. Capital modules might be an exception. I'm not a researcher or manufacturer. And yes, I talk about reprocessing. Arbalest is Meta 4 - I said Meta 1 and 2 commonly only cost their value in minerals. You chose Heavy Launchers as an example, the most skewed item category in Jita, hence, even if the Meta 1 Launcher was worth more than its reprocess: it's irrelevant since what I said is true for >90% of all common items. oook.... gimme a sec while I try that theory out withj the load of stuff Im about to sell/resprocess in about 5 min... ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.03.01 00:46:00 - [1342] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira oook.... gimme a sec while I try that theory out withj the load of stuff Im about to sell/resprocess in about 5 min... It's not wise to do so blindly and risk your ISK, make a reprocessing spreadsheet or the like. I know my business. Also, odds are you don't have perfect reprocess (100%, no tax).
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.01 00:51:00 - [1343] Originally by: Vincent Athena I asked these before but did not get an answer. Are the bots so prevalent that we no longer have a player driven economy? CCP advertises that EVE has a player driven economy. If this is not true, is CCP breaking the law by engaging in false advertising? Is there a government agency that needs to be notified? Technically speaking, a bot is still a player - so even if this was a zombie MMO with only bots - the economy would still be able to be called 'player driven'. It's all in how you define 'player'. That being said, only CCP knows for sure how much effect the bots have on the eve economy, however, I would venture a guess that it's significant - perhaps 20-30% overall, probably higher in localized markets where bots are more prevalent. As for the prices of items going up, as someone else mentioned, this is always the case before Fanfest since CCP started allowing folks to pay their way in PLEX - people want to earn more ISK to buy PLEX to go to fanfest. Just before fanfest PLEX will rise sharply to the 480-500m range (which is, coincidentally a good time to be selling PLEX lol). It has almost nothing to do with botting, save for the devalued minerals. Besides, the markets are so easy to manipulate if you know what you're doing it's not even funny. Someone mentioned the guys who sell stuff for less than it costs to produce... shhh! We don't want them to know any better. It's better for us marketeers if they don't! ;P lol However, markets are also localized, don't forget, so shopping around for a good price will still yield good results. Also, patience yields good results. Don't want to pay 90M for that battleship? Put in an order for 80M and be patient. Someone will eventually fill it. Hell, put it for 50M and someone will, eventually, fill it - probably one of those folks selling below cost <g>. Which, by the way, selling below cost was an issue from day zero with Eve and has nothing to do with botters devaluing minerals - it has everything to do with people not wanting to do basic math, or being smart enough to download one of the myriad of free applications that will tell you how much you need to sell your goods for to make a profit. And it has a lot to do with instant gratification. As for the eve economy 'tanking' if you take bots out of the picture, I doubt the effects would be so significant or severe - partly because CCP will never pull the virtual rug out from under all the bots at once, and partly because there are enough human players to keep the markets fairly stable. Like I said, if you know what you're doing in the markets you a) don't need bots and b) can make a ton of ISK off the people who don't know what they're doing. The other thing to consider is that CCP itself has made significant changes to the markets during almost every release - either by adding items, modifying items (to make them more or less desireable) or removing items. They also introduce and take away missions and complexes. None of these things seriously affected the economy in a negative way for a prolonged period of time. These changes were all absorbed by the community and we just kept on chugging along. So, killing off the bots will not kill the economy IMHO. What we should be concerned about, however, is how much ISK CCP is 'printing', as it were. That's where it hurts the economy the most. Mission and rat bots collecting rewards and bounties probably do more to hurt the Eve economy than miner bots devaluing minerals. None of it is good, frankly, but from an economical standpoint I think the ISK CCP prints to give away to those kinds of botters does significantly more damage by devaluing ISK itself (it's economics 101 - you print more money it makes the money less valuable). That's my only true economic concern.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.01 00:53:00 - [1344] Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa #Edit: I also just netted post 1337 in this thread. lol nice!
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.01 00:58:00 - [1345] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 01/03/2011 01:00:00 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 01/03/2011 00:59:07 Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Also, odds are you don't have perfect reprocess (100%, no tax). I actually DO have no tax, and Im only a couple skills off scrapmetal processing. out of curiosity, does that ONLY work with the scrap metal or does that increase minerals gotten from mods too? Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa You cannot prove wrong what I know to be true. Wink And I'm not liable for any misinterpretation of generalisation. My typing time is limited, there's always exceptions in both directions. lol... "you cannot prove wrong what I know is true and if Im wrong then its not my fault cause there are exceptions." Nice rationalization however, yes yer right. lol ill never sell a mod again O.o You make like 1.5x to 2x the market value reprocessing them and selling the mins ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Shoopa Whoopa	Posted - 2011.03.01 01:03:00 - [1346] Edited by: Shoopa Whoopa on 01/03/2011 01:04:44 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira snip Become rich and don't ever talk about it again. And yes, the Scrapmetal skill works with everything but ore.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Sigma Special Tactics Group Fleet Coordination Coalition	Posted - 2011.03.01 02:07:00 - [1347] Originally by: Burnharder Originally by: Lithalnas If you banned by CPUID then the botters would have to change out CPU's every time they are banned or hack the client to auto OK the check. But if i remember correctly, intel implemented these functionalities in a sort of non spoof-able manor to prevent CPU re-branding. Don't quote me, but I would hazard a guess that CPU ID can be spoofed. Anything can be spoofed but with CPUIDs, not every BIOS gives that up so binding a client instance to it has a very good chance of failure just getting the numbers. I knew a craigslist scammer who used to spoof the internet IDs all of the time using virtual machines. If you go by the GUID of the ethernet adapter, that can manually be reassigned very easily in VMware Player (then clone the id in the router/modem). (It's going to get very funny if the governments try to create a internet ID based on this stuff).
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.01 04:47:00 - [1348] Edited by: Batolemaeus on 01/03/2011 04:47:13 Originally by: Shoopa Whoopa Originally by: Opertone to your information - excessive ISK from botting, => inflation, battleships cost 90 mill a piece, then 100 mill, then even 110 mill. As more people get involved in botting, they go on market and buy equipment. They have higher income in ISKs, so casual players find it more difficult to buy equipment. IT can be observed in PLEX and Character market too, influx of ISKs devalues the currency. Everything takes more isk, isk value goes down. Aggravated by the fact that botters devalue minerals (mining bots) at the same time they cause ISK inflation (ratting bots). I'm not smart enough to draw a conclusion from that but I think it's very bad. Both most common bot types devalue minerals. Drone region bots supply most of the high mins, mining bots in w-space and k-space flood minerals into the economy too.
cyclobs Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.01 04:59:00 - [1349] Originally by: Arnakoz Edited by: Arnakoz on 28/02/2011 03:40:00 Originally by: Kizz Amarr CCP are responsible for the mechanics of the game. It is their baby so to speak. CCP understand the mechanics of the game can be used by third party software to play the game in the absense of a 'hands-on' player and/or in coordination with a hands-on player. Therefore, CCP are permitting the users to employ third party software to play the game. The game belongs to CCP, they own it and have the right to change it at will. AS they clearly acknowledge third party software is permitted to run on their platform, they are supporting it. If they support it, so can the players. The difference between a player and CCP, CCP Own the game, Players pay to play a game in accordance with CCP's Rules. your logic would only work if there were actually a way to stop bots. simple matter of the fact is that nothing they do will stop it. lets go thru the ropes here.. CCP: make it so that people mining have to enter a code or answer a question every so often. Bots: will implement already-existing captcha software. CCP: starts tracking the times and activities of miners Bots: start randomizing delays and logging in/out at different times CCP: allows players to issue 2 hour no-mining bans for suspected botting Bots: add courier mission abilities for those time frames. CCP: adds spyware on players computers, like blizzard. Bots: use languages and functions not detected by spyware. or even hack spyware itself to spoof OK responses. CCP: covertly collects a massive list of bot accounts and perma-bans them all at once. bots: haha, ccp just lost 60% of its player base and broke the market into pieces. lets get some more accounts set up! CCP: randomizes buttons and dropdown menus. bots: add OCR to software. i could go on forever. but hopefully you get my point by now. IMHO the only decent option is for CCP to increase the yield and total volume of ore. this would flood the market with minerals to the point that botting simply wouldn't be worth the risk. but neither would mining.... but atleast manufacturing would have a chance. until the idiots that sell for less than cost figure out they're making a profit... not entirely true.] You're forgetting the fact it cost around 20 USD plus the 1 month? to make a new account. So really CCP will make more money from permabanning bots. especially if they go through a lot every month.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.01 07:48:00 - [1350] Originally by: Arnakoz i see your point there. i hadn't considered ratting bots. i'm sure those players that use macros would have never bought any of that stuff if it weren't for the macros. besides, are ratting bots even common? i can't say i've ever seen/suspected one. I can find 20+ in Great Wildlands any day of the week - and that's in the very quiet hours before DT. I can find hundreds (if not thousands) in the drone regions, Stain and the south. Ratting bots are the #1 problem as the isk they create (rat bounties) comes from nowhere and hence is just like govts IRL printing money. It causes inflation and **s up everyone else who isn't doing it. A typical ratting bot can create 3 billion isk each and every month while only running for a few hours a day. Running 23/7 they'll make 15-20 billion a month very very easily. Ratting bots are endemic in null. They are all you are likely to find in null - no mining/courier/market/mission bots outside empire really. I'm going to point out the obvious AGAIN - CCP does NOT wish to ban these "players". They have demonstrated that on thousands of occasions by NOT banning the account for more than 3 days. I've tested this pretty extensively now and multiple petitions from multiple people about ONE bot (who's been doing it by his own admission for 3 years) resulted in 3 one day bans for him. That was petitions over the course of 2 months from 9 people. THREE ONE DAY BANS for over 300 BILLION ISK** generated from botting (his estimate). Sounds to me like he's the one with brains and the honest players are morons, with CCP laughing their arses off at the petitioners. CCP condone the use of bots, so petitioning is a total waste of time. If CCP ever decide to enforce their EULA (yeah yeah stop laughing at the back there ) then it may be worthwhile petitioning. Not until then though. CCP says "Carry On Botting"......

Darod Zyree Gallente Zyree Holding	Posted - 2011.03.01 08:25:00 - [1351] Edited by: Darod Zyree on 01/03/2011 08:25:34 Originally by: Othran CCP says "Carry On Botting"...... So how do i set up a bot? if CCP isnÆt going to permanently ban any account for using a bot program we can discuss it here right? -Darod-
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.01 08:36:00 - [1352] Originally by: Darod Zyree Edited by: Darod Zyree on 01/03/2011 08:25:34 Originally by: Othran CCP says "Carry On Botting"...... So how do i set up a bot? if CCP isnÆt going to permanently ban any account for using a bot program we can discuss it here right? innerscape is the most used. You can ask Therik in Rhaegor Stormborn in H A V O C, they know how to set it up.
Darod Zyree Gallente Zyree Holding	Posted - 2011.03.01 08:42:00 - [1353] Originally by: Othran Originally by: Darod Zyree Edited by: Darod Zyree on 01/03/2011 08:25:34 Originally by: Othran CCP says "Carry On Botting"...... So how do i set up a bot? if CCP isnÆt going to permanently ban any account for using a bot program we can discuss it here right? Using them, well that's a different matter isn't it? From CCPs actions (or the lack of them) we can only assume that TALKING about bots is a worse violation of the EULA than USING bots Hence my sarcastic post a few minutes ago -Darod-
Montgomery Crabapple	Posted - 2011.03.01 08:54:00 - [1354] I would have thought botting loses money for CCP. I'm sure someone has pointed it out in the previous 40 pages. The income can be used to but Plex... so these people are probably not paying for their game time anyway.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.01 09:00:00 - [1355] Originally by: Darod Zyree Originally by: Othran Originally by: Darod Zyree Edited by: Darod Zyree on 01/03/2011 08:25:34 Originally by: Othran CCP says "Carry On Botting"...... So how do i set up a bot? if CCP isnÆt going to permanently ban any account for using a bot program we can discuss it here right? Using them, well that's a different matter isn't it? From CCPs actions (or the lack of them) we can only assume that TALKING about bots is a worse violation of the EULA than USING bots Hence my sarcastic post a few minutes ago I know - my reply was a bit tongue-in-cheek
Darod Zyree Gallente Zyree Holding	Posted - 2011.03.01 09:01:00 - [1356] Edited by: Darod Zyree on 01/03/2011 09:02:28 Originally by: Montgomery Crabapple I would have thought botting loses money for CCP. I'm sure someone has pointed it out in the previous 40 pages. The income can be used to but Plex... so these people are probably not paying for their game time anyway. Plex has to be bought first before it can be sold in game, so someone did pay RL money for the bots player's game time and received ISK in return. -Darod-
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.03.01 11:15:00 - [1357] Originally by: Montgomery Crabapple I would have thought botting loses money for CCP. If that were truly the case, they'd be all over it like a rash. It's not, so they aren't. Also, this is insane, and insanely true. Originally by: Othran From CCPs actions (or the lack of them) we can only assume that TALKING about bots is a worse violation of the EULA than USING bots
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.03.01 12:10:00 - [1358] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 01/03/2011 12:16:50 Originally by: Bloody Rabbit Second, governments don't care about a game that can't break a billion in revenue across the globe so, no, there is no government that would care about RMT in a game. Lets focus on the RMT and botting as it effects the players and what the players will do in response if it is not fixed. Well no, there are plenty of businesses in the world that make way less than a billion a year that governments are very interested in taxing. Granted, Interpol might not be interested but tax authorities on the other hand might be? I don't know but I've always guessed that MMO's fight RMT or at least say they fight RMT because they don't want their in game currency being given a tangible real world value least they be taxed for it. It's the reason time codes are traded for real currency while isk has no official and direct real currency value, officially. Remember, governments tax transactions. And there are a significant number of transactions in Eve. While a single isk has little value the amount of isk in trade is very large. Aggregated over a year is probably a substantial real world amount in potential taxes. But it's all a rather complex topic that I choose not to concern myself with so much. As a solution, since CCP is definitely not fighting botting beyond the token effort I suggest the following: Use bots to petition the bots. The petition bots aggregate the data. When a certain threshold is reached it files a petition. Fight that fire with fire, I say.
Glasgow Dunlop	Posted - 2011.03.01 12:32:00 - [1359] I, for one, welcome our new bot overlords. If CCP dont do anything about the bots, and by the looks of it, they aren't/won't/can be botherd, then just maybe, the rest of the fair-playing players, should stick 2 fingers to CCP and join in our botting 'friends' as it seems the attitude of the company is 'not to care' about us that are filling their bank account up. Whats going to be the point of DUST, if EVE id just full of botter that dont use PI as much as regular players would?
Alice Katsuko Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2011.03.01 13:30:00 - [1360] Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 01/03/2011 13:32:04 Originally by: Montgomery Crabapple I would have thought botting loses money for CCP. I'm sure someone has pointed it out in the previous 40 pages. The income can be used to but Plex... so these people are probably not paying for their game time anyway. PLEX do not cost CCP any income. If PLEX really did allow players to play for 'free' in the grand scheme of things, CCP would not have implemented them. To create a PLEX, a player first has to buy a game time code either from CCP or from a retailer. The player converts that game time code into into a PLEX in-game, and either stores it, sells it to another for ISK, or blows it up. If the player uses the PLEX he created, he effectively paid for his game time as though he had bought a 30-day subscription, and CCP loses nothing. If the player sells the PLEX for ISK, he just paid for the game time of the buyer [and got ISK in return for his real-world money], but now has to buy game time for his own account. If the player gets the PLEX blown up, he has thrown away the price of a 30-day subscription, basically giving CCP the price of a PLEX for free. Either way, CCP has made at least the same amount it would have had it sold the game time code directly to the PLEX buyer. In fact, CCP makes more if players destroy PLEX, since a destroyed PLEX represents destroyed game time. PLEX also increases its income by allowing those who would not otherwise be able to afford multiple accounts, purchase GTC through proxies [aka anyone who sells PLEX in the game]. So arguably, botters actually increase revenue for CCP by increasing the demand for PLEX and thus for game time codes. It is a question of volume, not of price; CCPs profits are tied to volume of PLEX sold [and thus GTC converted], not to how much ISK a PLEX costs. This is why I posted elsewhere that CCP has zero financial incentive to deal with botters and macroers unless their users engage in RMT transactions. One can of course argue that CCP has some sort of moral obligation to pursue those who violate the EULA or who simply 'cheat.' But even if the developers would like to eliminate botters and macroers from their game, CCP has limited resources to any single task. The amount of resources dedicated to something that might actually reduce CCP's income would understandably be small.

Soi Mala Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen	Posted - 2011.03.01 14:02:00 - [1361] You guys should find this hilarious... For the last couple of weeks, my corporation has been greifing an alliance - Wardecs, camping the pipe to their 0.0 home, afk cloakers etc. One guy in particular has parked a few of his alts in their space, particularly the ratting systems, where he afk cloaks most of the day, every day. If he happened to be around while targets were out, he'd probe and blackops bridge for us etc. You might argue about the lameness of these tactics etc but that is beside the point. A few days ago, his alt accounts received mails stating that they had been banned for 3 days, reason: use of a macro/bot. Really? These accounts that had been sat perfectly inactive? Not killed rats, not mined, not done anything? What exactly were they macroing? He was asked to explain why he was logged in all the time, as this was highly suspicious, as opposed to just logging in and probing when he needed to. Apparently this is behavior exhibited by RMTers. He appealed and luckily got the bans lifted, but the whole thing caused megalols amongst the corp. Perhaps the funniest thing in my eyes, wasn't the lack of reasoning, but the fact that it was only a 3 day ban... Seriously, that is supposed to stop these botters? Hardly the kind of punishment i'd class as "unholy rage".
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.01 14:09:00 - [1362] Originally by: cyclobs not entirely true.] You're forgetting the fact it cost around 20 USD plus the 1 month? to make a new account. So really CCP will make more money from permabanning bots. especially if they go through a lot every month. hmm, well initially no - regular players who bot aren't going to make new accounts, and will likely stop playing altogether, while the RMT guys - yes, they will burn thru accounts. i suppose the question would become is there more $ made from regular player bots than there would be from RMT + initial setup bots. no clue here. i would ponder that there are vastly more regular player bots than RMT.
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.01 14:11:00 - [1363] Originally by: Darod Zyree Edited by: Darod Zyree on 01/03/2011 09:02:28 Originally by: Montgomery Crabapple I would have thought botting loses money for CCP. I'm sure someone has pointed it out in the previous 40 pages. The income can be used to but Plex... so these people are probably not paying for their game time anyway. Plex has to be bought first before it can be sold in game, so someone did pay RL money for the bots player's game time and received ISK in return. Thanks. Another thing about Eve I didn't know before. I thought CCP were just giving them away for ISK. See my other thread, "I'll always be a noob". :p
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.01 14:14:00 - [1364] So if bots use screen capture and OCR, the only technical solution is a protected media pathway (DRM), possible in Vista/7 (not sure if it's possible with a D3D window, in an efficient way, however). But even then, the PMP requires the entire pathway to be protected, including monitor, otherwise you could just input the output of your graphics card into another machine and bot from that (more complex bot, but possible nonetheless). So this is one instance, probably the only instance, where I've actually found something DRM and the protected media pathway might actually be good for. It's just that hardly anyone has hardware that would fully support it.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.01 14:54:00 - [1365] Houm... and what about fighting paid-for 3rd party bots with CCP free bots? Let's say, add a skill, "miner automatization". Trimmed in such a way, that it renders X% more mineral than the average miner operation but only in the long run (FAI, if the average miner mines 2 hours a day, then "automatization" would turn X% more yield each 23 hours: would be better, but not overwhelmingly better, and "manual" miners could just mine X% longer to compete) The details could be discussed, but the point would be, this "automatization skill" would be for "free" whereas 3rd party bots are to be bought. Why spend x dollars or euros when you can get something similar for free? Additionally, CCP could trim the EULA as to begin cancelling accounts for 3rd party botting, once they provided a legit way to "fulfil" such a "need". Much as GTC are OK and RMT is Not-OK, CCP-botting could be a tool, both social, psychological and legal, to smash 3rd party botting. And I think it would work better than a escalation of conflict between software developers, with CCP adding barriers and 3rd parties leaping over them over and over again. Just thinking a bit outside of the box, huh.
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.01 15:17:00 - [1366] Originally by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai Houm... and what about fighting paid-for 3rd party bots with CCP free bots? Let's say, add a skill, "miner automatization". Trimmed in such a way, that it renders X% more mineral than the average miner operation but only in the long run (FAI, if the average miner mines 2 hours a day, then "automatization" would turn X% more yield each 23 hours: would be better, but not overwhelmingly better, and "manual" miners could just mine X% longer to compete) The details could be discussed, but the point would be, this "automatization skill" would be for "free" whereas 3rd party bots are to be bought. Why spend x dollars or euros when you can get something similar for free? Additionally, CCP could trim the EULA as to begin cancelling accounts for 3rd party botting, once they provided a legit way to "fulfil" such a "need". Much as GTC are OK and RMT is Not-OK, CCP-botting could be a tool, both social, psychological and legal, to smash 3rd party botting. And I think it would work better than a escalation of conflict between software developers, with CCP adding barriers and 3rd parties leaping over them over and over again. Just thinking a bit outside of the box, huh. Interesting. When I played X2, I'd set up trading routes and defence between my factories and then put it on SETA and go to work. When I came home, I'd have made millions (!). The problem for me was once I'd figured out how to get the best ship and kit in game, I lost interest in it. The challenge had gone completely and with it the fun and interest. But in general if you're going to do this, you might as well go the whole hog and have a user scripting language. Very simple commands in the command set of course. Indeed, I suggested this in beta and had my trousers taken down and my bum smacked on the forums for doing so :p. At the time my interest was in reducing the repetitive strain injury I was getting in my mouse hand. It wouldn't destroy the cash/isk market however but it would put a halt to 3rd party botting. To be honest I'm not sure why there is a market for isk out there, unless it's much cheaper than plex... Am I missing something?
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.03.01 15:21:00 - [1367] Originally by: Soi Mala For the last couple of weeks, my corporation has been greifing an alliance - Wardecs, camping the pipe to their 0.0 home, afk cloakers etc. One guy in particular has parked a few of his alts in their space, .... A few days ago, his alt accounts received mails stating that they had been banned for 3 days, reason: use of a macro/bot. If that's true, wow... Then again, the level of CCP's incompetency is almost unbelievable. So I believe this could happen.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.03.01 15:45:00 - [1368] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 15:48:05 Originally by: Ephemeron First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals. CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values. Their complete lack of response (other than to send sniper mods in here to delete or edit comments that embarrass CCP) is pretty damming isn't it? I'm beginning to think that we should all just start botting, not for sale or anything but just for ourselves. Why not? CCP doesn't punish it or take it seriously. And it would save us the need to purchase overpriced GTC's to sell as PLEX wouldn't it? It'd be like having your own cadre of Tech moons, without the need to defend them or do the POS logistical bullcrap. Heck, I could have that Aeon I've always wanted by next week. CCP in their silence and inactivity is practically ENDORSING this.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.03.01 15:53:00 - [1369] Originally by: Soi Mala You guys should find this hilarious... For the last couple of weeks, my corporation has been greifing an alliance - Wardecs, camping the pipe to their 0.0 home, afk cloakers etc. One guy in particular has parked a few of his alts in their space, particularly the ratting systems, where he afk cloaks most of the day, every day. If he happened to be around while targets were out, he'd probe and blackops bridge for us etc. You might argue about the lameness of these tactics etc but that is beside the point. A few days ago, his alt accounts received mails stating that they had been banned for 3 days, reason: use of a macro/bot. Really? These accounts that had been sat perfectly inactive? Not killed rats, not mined, not done anything? What exactly were they macroing? He was asked to explain why he was logged in all the time, as this was highly suspicious, as opposed to just logging in and probing when he needed to. Apparently this is behavior exhibited by RMTers. He appealed and luckily got the bans lifted, but the whole thing caused megalols amongst the corp. Perhaps the funniest thing in my eyes, wasn't the lack of reasoning, but the fact that it was only a 3 day ban... Seriously, that is supposed to stop these botters? Hardly the kind of punishment i'd class as "unholy rage". More like "Operation Unholy SLAP on the Hand". Give CCP credit. At least they've FINALLY zoned in on the clue that staying logged in practically every second the server is up is suspicious and probably means a bot. But they've yet to make the connection and link that clue with the "oh, and also RATS continually for 20+ hours" clue which should, oh, 99.999999999998% of the time indicate a genuine bot. Come on, CCP, it's not that hard, form a study group, have some management meetings and you MAY put 2+2 together and get 4 in under 18 months. You can do it!
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.03.01 16:01:00 - [1370] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 16:01:47 Accidental double post...


CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.01 17:00:00 - [1371] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 15:48:05 Originally by: Ephemeron First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals. CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values. Their complete lack of response (other than to send sniper mods in here to delete or edit comments that embarrass CCP) is pretty damming isn't it? I'm beginning to think that we should all just start botting, not for sale or anything but just for ourselves. Why not? CCP doesn't punish it or take it seriously. And it would save us the need to purchase overpriced GTC's to sell as PLEX wouldn't it? It'd be like having your own cadre of Tech moons, without the need to defend them or do the POS logistical bullcrap. Heck, I could have that Aeon I've always wanted by next week. CCP in their silence and inactivity is practically ENDORSING this. I responded to this thread a few times. I stated that we have a team working on the issue and we'd have information for you in the coming weeks. I stated that we in no way endorse this activity and never will. I am pretty clear on these things and that is our one and only policy. I understand that there's a lot of concern in the community about this particular issue. I'm rather concerned myself. Let's not pretend however that simply because I've said something's going to take a bit of time to do well or that because my posts were in the early stages of a large thread, that we're ignoring the issue. We've said precisely the opposite and we have nothing to gain from lying to you. It's a complex issue which requires a careful solution, whether it appears that way outwardly or not. I'd look to Fanfest as a good time to obtain more information on this particular subject as a not-so-subtle hint on when you can expect to hear more.

Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.03.01 17:07:00 - [1372] Thank you for the reply, but I will believe it when I see something. The fact that bots are allowed to proliferate out there with impunity and no consequence to the alliances who clearly allow them is a travesty. As for a metric of success, there is none better to measure it by than the cost of illicit ISK. If it starts going up, then you guys are having an effect on the farmers. If it doesn't, you aren't.
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.01 17:20:00 - [1373] Just out of interest, are bots rife in WOW? How do other MMO's deal with this problem?
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.01 17:41:00 - [1374] omg... one response I been in this thread ten pages or so now and we got one copy/paste response lol Quote: Originally by: Bloody Rabbit Second, governments don't care about a game that can't break a billion in revenue across the globe so, no, there is no government that would care about RMT in a game. Lets focus on the RMT and botting as it effects the players and what the players will do in response if it is not fixed. Actually no... the US Govt has made grumblings about figuring out how to tax in game money in several games. That would be hilarious if they figured out a way to do it too ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Scyth Darkhope Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.03.01 17:50:00 - [1375] Edited by: Scyth Darkhope on 01/03/2011 17:57:22 Yes, bots exist and thrive in WoW since its inception; almost surely there are more bots in WoW than in EVE, and that is saying a lot. However, the economy of WoW is a complete joke compared to the economy in EVE, so in fact, even if there are more bots in WoW, the harm they cause is way more limited.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.01 17:52:00 - [1376] CCP Sreegs, thnks for the comment. One reason there has been so much rage for so long in this thread is your last comment was not a few weeks ago, but almost 3 MONTHS ago, somewhat longer then what most would say is "a few weeks". And in all that time, not only have no questions been answered, but the bots continue to exist. I hope the fanfest comments actually have substance, not on just RMT, but on botting for in-game gain. To the question "why RMT when there is PLEX?" Illegal ISK is cheaper, 70% of the cost. Some RMT sites eve claim their isk is "clean" because it was farmed by hand, not with bots!
Everard Headbutt	Posted - 2011.03.01 18:28:00 - [1377] Originally by: CCP Sreegs I've said something's going to take a bit of time to do well 5+ years and counting so far....
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.03.01 18:30:00 - [1378] Originally by: CCP Sreegs I responded to this thread a few times. I stated that we have a team working on the issue and we'd have information for you in the coming weeks. On Dec19th, you posted: Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys, just wanted to say I'm seeing a lot of conversation here about us not caring or not doing anything about this particular subject and I wanted to affirm that it's a subject that's very near and dear to my heart. This isn't a subject that's being ignored in ANY WAY, and it's actually something I personally take umbrage with. I understand how one can feel a certain way based on their personal perceptions, but I can also say with some degree of authority that this is no way a subject that's being ignored in the least. That's what you told us that back in December when this issue first erupted. It's March now, and the only visible response to the issue since then has been forum censoring to contain conversation to this thread. Conversation on the topic during the CSM summit was 100% redacted under NDA. Not even a bone from CCP Zulu to tell us there's a reason to sit tight & wait. What are we supposed to think, other than we're being swept under the rug along with the problem? Originally by: CCP Sreegs I'd look to Fanfest as a good time to obtain more information on this particular subject as a not-so-subtle hint on when you can expect to hear more. Thanks for this heads up. I'll be watching closely. Not directed at Sreegs, but to CCP in general: FF ends on the 26th. My game time ends on the 30th. A sandbox infested with bots is not a sandbox; it's a never ending arena deathmatch. That's not what brought me to Eve. Give me reason to believe you're not going to let the game devolve deeper into arena mode for the cheaters.
Illwill Bill Reign of Anarchy	Posted - 2011.03.01 18:40:00 - [1379] Originally by: CCP Sreegs stuff Problem is that many have reached the point where nothing less than a public flogging of anyone who even considered learn Python is seen as evidence of CCP endorsing botters. It's a pretty naive outlook, but those people are there; they are loud, and they want blood. When Unholy rage hit, the effects were obvious, and everyone could see it. Nowadays it's hard to tell what's being done when even the most obvious ~~Bot~~ Drone region botters only get three-day bans. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.01 19:08:00 - [1380] Got a bot mining in system with me right now. Do I bother with a petition? Don't want to lose sec by grabbing a smart-bombing domi and capping him :p.

Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2011.03.01 19:42:00 - [1381] Originally by: CCP Sreegs empty stock response. I for one appreciate your response in this thread, however there is a disparity between CCPs claimed concern in this area and the long term virtually unchecked rampant botting that has proliferated throughout New Eden. Problem is, an Unholy Rage type response won't be enough any more. The 1-3 day bans were insufficient, and even if you perma-ban the botters, they earn enough in a day to have multiple plex-funded pre-prepared raven chars logged off ready to step in and continue farming after the bans. You cannot even nerf local as a fix, as the Eve client can be hacked to tell you who is there anyway. So what can be done? Answer, nothing that will be popular. Rewrite the Eve client to make it as secure as your game architecture allows. Open source ideally. ] Make all belt rats in 0.0 warp scramble or drop bubbles . Do something about 0,0 belt rat ease of farmability without killing 0.0 rewards (easier said than done I know). Nerf local (when you fixed the client, otherwise you simply help the bots/cheats). Nerf cloaking. Make cloaks detectable after some time, more than 2 minutes but less than 15. This way a legit non-ratting player logging off will be fine, but a disturbed macro raven will be probable/killable rats aggro = 15min logoff timer as with pvp. Use this with the above 2 points to allow players to police bots. Introduce simple heuristics to look for players who are logged in 23/7, and perform the same activity all that time without even a "bio-break". Do not ban these, but add them to a short list to be investigated. Introduce a CCP endorsed built in ratting bot, to kill the 3rd party bots and level the playing field. I don't like this terribad 'solution' as it will have major knock-on consequences but it will kill the advantage of botting.
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.03.01 20:06:00 - [1382] Agree with all your ideas. If CCP were serious, they could make an impact on this problem right now by just doing some good GM work investigating petitions, AND actual policing the areas where botting is most reported. A GM can watch botters while being invisible in local. Players can't do that. Tools do need to be built to make gathering information for the "bot buster" GM teams to act on easier, and it really is no more complicated than compiling reports on accounts logged in FAR longer each day than the average metric that are engaged in a single activity beyond human endurance.

CCP Adida C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.01 20:29:00 - [1383] Removed conversations and links on how to bot. Adida Community Rep CCP Hf, EVE Online

Everard Headbutt	Posted - 2011.03.01 20:38:00 - [1384] Originally by: CCP Adida Removed conversations and links on how to bot. Nice to see CCP can still find time to censor posts on this forum, and yet for the last 5+ years do **** all about the botters....
Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.03.01 20:43:00 - [1385] Originally by: Everard Headbutt Originally by: CCP Adida Removed conversations and links on how to bot. Nice to see CCP can still find time to censor posts on this forum, and yet for the last 5+ years do **** all about the botters.... Yeah, seriously, could the mods just get the F--- OUT of this thread now? They keep insisting that all discussion of the bot scourge take place here then do everything they can do to impede it. The edits and deletions aren't HELPING they are only making us angrier at CCP's lack of any constructive action against this problem. Indeed, it would take less effort than the mods are putting into squelching this thread than it would to task some GM's to investigate the 23/7 ratters which HAVE to be bots which would make any such moderation unnecessary as this thread would be full of people congratulating CCP on at least putting forth a credible effort! Less mods. More GM's investigating bots.
Antihrist Pripravnik 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.01 20:58:00 - [1386] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Yeah, seriously, could the mods just get the F--- OUT of this thread now? They keep insisting that all discussion of the bot scourge take place here then do everything they can do to impede it. The edits and deletions aren't HELPING they are only making us angrier at CCP's lack of any constructive action against this problem. Patience is a virtue. Call me a fool, but I still believe in CCP's ability to handle this problem. Otherwise I wouldn't be playing.
Everard Headbutt	Posted - 2011.03.01 21:04:00 - [1387] Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik Patience is a virtue. After waiting over five years for them to fix this problem, and seeing them on numerous occasions hand back accounts to botters after claiming they have been perma banned. My patience is more than a little thin.
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.03.01 21:08:00 - [1388] Edited by: Kuronaga on 01/03/2011 21:08:51 Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik Originally by: Jack Gilligan Yeah, seriously, could the mods just get the F--- OUT of this thread now? They keep insisting that all discussion of the bot scourge take place here then do everything they can do to impede it. The edits and deletions aren't HELPING they are only making us angrier at CCP's lack of any constructive action against this problem. Patience is a virtue. Call me a fool, but I still believe in CCP's ability to handle this problem. Otherwise I wouldn't be playing. As you wish. You're a fool, and you should stop playing. but, seriously. I hope you are right. Unfortunately that hope is very, very dim at this point. The CCP gestapo-like modding of this topic has severely damaged my view of the company, and that view even withstood the BoB BPO handout fiasco. Looking back, maybe it shouldn't have.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.01 21:13:00 - [1389] Originally by: Kuronaga The CCP gestapo-like modding of this topic has severely damaged my view of the company Actually the modding has followed the forum rules. Shame the in-game rules are ignored with impunity.

CCP Adida C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.01 21:20:00 - [1390] Removed discussions regarding moderation. If you have an issue on how something was handled please submit a petition. Adida Community Rep CCP Hf, EVE Online


Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.01 21:33:00 - [1391] One thing to think about is how the botters would respond to a more aggressive CCP. For example: CCP start banning 23/7 ratters: Botters program the bots to take simulated bio breaks and switch accounts every 12 hours. CCP bans those who do the same activity all the time: Botters program the bots to mix it up, do some mining, then belt ratting, then anomaly running. CCP uses software to make screen scraping impossible: Botters point a web camera at the screen. And so on. CCP's problem is not stopping what the botters are doing now, but anything they could do in the future. Imagine the computer "Watson" (the one that won the game Jepoardy) playing eve, with its machine learning capability analyzing what actions cause bannings and what it can get away with. Its possible the reason CCP has been so quiet is they do not want to snipe at the botters, starting an arms race, they want to drop a nuke on them, wiping them all out all at the same time, and once and for all. And getting that nuke ready, making it future proof, is hard. I hope so, and wish them luck.
Glasgow Dunlop	Posted - 2011.03.01 21:33:00 - [1392] I think they might just come on here on there tea break lol. The Revolution has started, well it might, a might have slept thru it, but honest players are now fed up and demaning action being taken. Its all very well for the mods & GM's to say there looking in to it, but to 99.99% you paying us lip service and until hard fact and reactions happen in-game then a revolution might just be in place. Its thanks to the players that pay every month on 1,2,3 or whatever amount of accounts they might or might not have, that at the end of they pay, pays the wages at CCP. And to us lot at the moment, we have a feeling of resentment of handing that over, just to see the 'botters' rip billions apon billions of isk. Im sure the only time somebody buys PLEX's is to get a bit of instant isk, because account running is cheaper. Now what if 10 random folk decied' CCP aint dealing wiht this issue, *$^& them, let get some bots of our own' make is to buy PLEX, and spread the word to 10 of there corp/alliance mates/ randoms in local, and so on and so on, the game dies, and everyone who has put in countless hours to make and develope the game, find that they are out of work due the game collapsing to to the amount of botters. And in turn this I feel would put of new players as well to the game, currently any noob hasn the faintest idea about this, but if they came in with there eyes wide open, they would be friendly to the bots, as they would see that as the fastest way of making isk, and not really bother so much as to the other aspects of the game. To Us, the player, we need to see firm action being taken by you, CCP, as again, it just feels like an empty promise that something will be done, and wont be done until CCP starts getting bad press from it, its a shame to say that , but thats the way I feel about this subject. You already have the evidance in your files, its just that you, for whatever reason, choose not to look at it, and that makes me sad, knowing that you know, and doing nothing about it, its abuse for lack of a better term, the botters abusing that game, and the rest of the players are the one of the reciveing and, and CCP, the overseer, looking down and thinking 'NOTHING WRONG HERE' Thats the message we are hearing, and we dont want to here it again, there is something wrong, and the only thing that will satasfiy us is the removal of said botters, for good. Sorry if this went on a bit longer than i thought, had to get my word out
Juil Gallente Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.	Posted - 2011.03.01 22:04:00 - [1393] what gets me is why account bans? Why not start banning IP's and CC's etc associated with the person running the entire account. By running 1 bot character technically they are breaking the EULA and it shouldn't matter WHICH account they are on all of their accounts should suffer, after all I don't see the 'bot' accounts gaining anything from botting but the main player accounts are. How is it fair that some of us have to sit and stare at a screen bored mining, or run the same mission for the 500th time etc to earn our isk so we even have a chance at doing things like PVP etc while others can simply have a world of computer controlled accounts do it for them. Not to mention what's the point in even RISKING going out 0.0 or low sec when hey nothing I do is going to change anything.. I mean say I got togeather 50 people and took out x's titan and x is a botter, we all know that X will have his titan back in less then 72 hours and has billions of isk to waste on it, while the 'normal' players are scrapping to replace the ships they lost durring the fight. While CCP seems to focus on the Real Money Transfers in the end the BOTS are the ones doing more damage to the game as a whole, the BOTS are the ones who are endlessly mining resources and pumping them into the economy or into certain players stock piles and thus giving them unfair advantage, the BOTS are the ones producing the extra ISK and thus inflation within the global economy of EVE. And all we see from CCP is 'we take it seriously' well if you take it seriously how about starting to name, shame and post what your doing rather then forcing any discussion of what your doing down a NDA and telling us 'wait until fanfest' every year? You only have to read this thread to see people are upset and angry and the length in replies from CCP make things even worse when it comes to why people are getting upset. Not to mention based on the CSM notes even if we went to the people who are meant to be our DIRECT voice to you and went 'Well what is CCP doing about this?' they'd be forced to go 'Sorry we can't say anything'. And that 'Sorry we can't say anything' attitude of CCP is starting to get old to a lot of people, you'll notice that people here point out wow has bots etc but at least BLIZZARD does something about them, go look at the news items on wow every 3 months or so and you see XXXXX acounts closed due to botting or EULA breachs. CCP needs to start being Visably seen as doing something and they need to be seen as being HARSH when it comes to breaking the rules and breaking the Terms you agree to when you pay our money to start an account and play the game. That means actually closing accounts and deleting them.. rather then putting a joke ban on them that isn't going to hurt them at all, it means Black Listing the people who are doing the botting etc as well. - Juil Intergrated Information Services Information is Power
Shandir Minmatar EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.03.01 22:11:00 - [1394] The problem with demanding immediate action is that immediate action won't work. They need to plan and scheme. And the problem with demanding permanent, 99% effective action - is that this would include measures some players aren't happy with. I think the only real long-term useful solution is going to be a Punkbuster style monitoring application - some have stated they will not accept such an intrusive reaction. I would cautiously approve of it - depending on what, exactly, it did. And giving out a ú1 one time access code generating dongle to all players could hobble the RMT hacking business. Purely PLEX-based accounts also seems like it could be a potential security hole, as it allows an account to have never been attached to a confirmed RL name. Perhaps a ú0.01 charge for setting up an account would force botters to either associate their accounts together, or commit credit card fraud and open themselves up to a lot of legal trouble.
Ai Shun Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.01 22:15:00 - [1395] Originally by: Juil what gets me is why account bans? Why not start banning IP's and CC's etc associated with the person running the entire account IP bans are BAD. Why? Network Address Translation: Multiple users behind one public IP address in locations such as schools, universities, hotels, wireless hotspots, etc. Particularly big issue with the depletion of the IPv4 address pool. If you ban the public IP you ban EVERYONE behind that IP, not just the botter. Dynamic IP addresses: Most ISPs will try to give you the same IP address as was allocated to you before. However, it is not guaranteed when the IP lease is renewed. The potential exists to ban an IP that gets randomly assigned to somebody else at the same ISP. Great fun, eh? By the same token - the botter can simply wait until his lease expires and renew. Or use a different ISP for a while. You cannot defeat them that way. It is dumb. In terms of credit card bans? I can walk into a post shop here and pickup a temporary credit card. I pay cash and walk away with something I can use online. In fact, I do that for all MMO games I play so that my real credit card is not exposed to the slack security of whatever company I am buying from. Plus, people in the RMT trade likely has access to stolen credit card information. I remember when I was closed to the retail side of software the number of transactions that happened on stolen credit cards, with the subsequent later chargeback as the real owner discovered this, was tremendous. It cost us a lot of money as a small development house, just dealing with that. They have three options as far as I can see. 1. Make it legal and provide a CCP bot. 2. Change the core design so it becomes pointless to bot. 3. Change the 3 day ban for a botter to a lifetime ban.
Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2011.03.01 22:28:00 - [1396] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 01/03/2011 22:28:05 The only way to do client-side bot detection/target bans based on client-side info somewhat reliably is to adopt some form of trusted computing. As long as the user is in full control of his machine, he can fool any client-side checks (such as banning certain MAC addresses, OS serials, ...). But in that case the cure would imho be worse than the disease.
Shandir Minmatar EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.03.01 23:08:00 - [1397] Edited by: Shandir on 01/03/2011 23:10:30 Edited by: Shandir on 01/03/2011 23:10:07 I keep seeing people saying they want a "Legal CCP bot" I don't understand how this would improve the game - it's either sufficiently good that the only difference is that we're paying CCP to make the game less competitive, or it's got some inherent flaws, in which case the botters won't use it, and in either case people who would not have botted, will now use the acceptable version - and the situation gets worse. Conversely - option 2 is extremely difficult and expensive, but it would be the best solution. Option 3 should be a no brainer. Don't just ban then for three days, don't even ban them for life, track them down and blow their kneecaps off.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.01 23:32:00 - [1398] Originally by: CCP Adida Removed conversations and links on how to bot. It is officially more dangerous to talk about botting on the forums than it is to do it in game lol
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.01 23:34:00 - [1399] Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreegs, thnks for the comment. One reason there has been so much rage for so long in this thread is your last comment was not a few weeks ago, but almost 3 MONTHS ago, somewhat longer then what most would say is "a few weeks". Apparently to them 12 or so is a "few" ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.03.01 23:39:00 - [1400] Sweet, only 12 deleted replies so far.

Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.03.01 23:40:00 - [1401] Within 1 week of intensive analysis CCP could identify near 100% of all the bot farmers. Start with the assumption that someone who bots professionally will have multiple accounts. Check for multiple accounts connected thru 1 IP. That filters out most regular people already. Of those that left, get all those that NPC'ed for more than 1 hour in the week. Of those that left, check if 2+ accounts of same IP have NPCed at the same time (not just 1 ratting, 1 salvaging, but both ratting) Of those that left, get all those that transferred isk from farming accounts to any other account. Of those that left, check if the account that received money was actively played while 2+ other accounts were ratting. Those are the most suspicious, as it would be difficult for 1 person to play on 3 accounts at same time, while 2 are ratting and 1 is PvPing or doing other stuff. Take this list of suspicious people and examine the NPCing patterns of the accounts. Compare their activity patterns with the activity pattern of account that receives the isk. If it looks like the NPCer accounts keep going for many hours a day, while account that does other stuff is only played certain times of day for less hours, then it's even more suspicious. Finally, take that list. Send GM messages to active NPCer accounts while the account that receives money is offline or inactive for 30+ minutes, if there's no response, ban the whole IP block. It's critical to punish the "main" owner of the bots, not just the bot accounts.
Ai Shun Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.01 23:43:00 - [1402] Originally by: Shandir I keep seeing people saying they want a "Legal CCP bot" I don't want one. But if they legitimise it, that would be one option. I don't see it as particularly viable though. Originally by: Shandir Conversely - option 2 is extremely difficult and expensive, but it would be the best solution. Why do you see it as the best solution? It seems like the worst one to me, because you would need to change the core of what makes EVE the game it is. The whole principle of risk and reward would need to be gone before botting was no longer an option and what would the point of EVE without risk and reward be?
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.01 23:47:00 - [1403] pretty obvious how they feel when the only real reaction we get other than a "we're working on it, trust us" platitude every 3 months is the Mod telling us what got deleted. ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.01 23:47:00 - [1404] So I did a google on ways to prevent botting and it seems to me that every other MMO has the same problem. Blizzard even sued the maker of a bot and won $6,000,000 in damages (no clue if they collected, or if he's still selling it). It seems to me that without a protected media pathway (where the keys haven't been leaked!), it's pretty much impossible to prevent someone from frapsing the output, ocr'ing it and generating scripts to control the game. Perhaps it's unreasonable to expect action then?
Glasgow Dunlop	Posted - 2011.03.01 23:50:00 - [1405] Edited by: Glasgow Dunlop on 01/03/2011 23:52:07 Edited by: Glasgow Dunlop on 01/03/2011 23:51:15 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira pretty obvious how they feel when the only real reaction we get other than a "we're working on it, trust us" platitude every 3 months is the Mod telling us what got deleted. iv only just had my eyed opend to this, so if this has been going on a lot longer than i thought then why arnt they already in the midst of getting the propblem delt with, like a press to report button like they have with the isk-spammers? At least then they would have a player input as well, and save approximly 1 coffee and smoke break of time for the unlucky sod who has to do this.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.01 23:57:00 - [1406] Originally by: Burnharder So I did a google on ways to prevent botting and it seems to me that every other MMO has the same problem. Blizzard even sued the maker of a bot and won $6,000,000 in damages (no clue if they collected, or if he's still selling it). It seems to me that without a protected media pathway (where the keys haven't been leaked!), it's pretty much impossible to prevent someone from frapsing the output, ocr'ing it and generating scripts to control the game. Perhaps it's unreasonable to expect action then? Blizzard won... ill find the link ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Kireiina	Posted - 2011.03.02 01:04:00 - [1407] The technical details of how CCP go about detecting and banning botters isn't really important. They have a lot of information and the capacity to write more anti-botting measures in the game. What needs to happen is that CCP does something to make it clear that they are against botting and willing to invest some resources in making it less lucrative. At the moment their silence can be taken as an implicit acceptance of botting.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.02 01:20:00 - [1408] Originally by: Kireiina The technical details of how CCP go about detecting and banning botters isn't really important. They have a lot of information and the capacity to write more anti-botting measures in the game. What needs to happen is that CCP does something to make it clear that they are against botting and willing to invest some resources in making it less lucrative. At the moment their silence can be taken as an implicit acceptance of botting. yea, show us you give a **** an PERMA ban some of them ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.02 02:26:00 - [1409] Edited by: Arnakoz on 02/03/2011 02:35:52 Originally by: Ephemeron Within 1 week of intensive analysis CCP could identify near 100% of all the bot farmers. Start with the assumption that someone who bots professionally will have multiple accounts. Check for multiple accounts connected thru 1 IP. That filters out most regular people already. nearly everyone i've played with in this game has had multiple accounts. so your first two points would accomplish nothing. and what of the individual players who play when they can and bot otherwise? you;ve missed them completely. Originally by: Ephemeron Of those that left, get all those that NPC'ed for more than 1 hour in the week. Of those that left, check if 2+ accounts of same IP have NPCed at the same time (not just 1 ratting, 1 salvaging, but both ratting) i've ratted for well over 8 hours striaght before. and mined for that amount of time as well. not often, but i've done it. and i wasn't botting. but so far you;re assumption make me and a tons of others meet you;re criteria. However, the RMT guys likely all use TOR or the likes to mask their IPs - making it look like a bunch solo players. so at this point you've excluded the RMT guys. Originally by: Ephemeron Of those that left, get all those that transferred isk from farming accounts to any other account. Of those that left, check if the account that received money was actively played while 2+ other accounts were ratting. Those are the most suspicious, as it would be difficult for 1 person to play on 3 accounts at same time, while 2 are ratting and 1 is PvPing or doing other stuff. transferred isk is a red flag. but people who own play on more than one account DO tend to move things around. maybe have everything on the main, or all of it spread out for fear of being hacked, etc. but regardless, so far you;ve described ~80% of the players i know. Plus, both ratting and mining are passive activities. one could easily (esp with drone boats) warp into a plex or anom, drop drones and completely do something else in the mean time. and this ISN'T EVEN BOTTING!! all the bot would do is warp to another anom and drop drones again. so yes, one person can do that on multiple accounts with ease. the difference being that bots can run for many more hours than the player. but nothing more. Originally by: Ephemeron Take this list of suspicious people and examine the NPCing patterns of the accounts. Compare their activity patterns with the activity pattern of account that receives the isk. If it looks like the NPCer accounts keep going for many hours a day, while account that does other stuff is only played certain times of day for less hours, then it's even more suspicious. Finally, take that list. Send GM messages to active NPCer accounts while the account that receives money is offline or inactive for 30+ minutes, if there's no response, ban the whole IP block. It's critical to punish the "main" owner of the bots, not just the bot accounts. so at this point you've said "take a list of ~50-80% of the players in the game, but not the RMT or solo botters, and look at each in depth. which is kind of where they are at already. but even if they did exactly as you said, and it worked - they got rid of 100% of the bots - all of the RMT folks would just keep making new accounts. and those accounts that were simply sitting in training will be out botting in no time as well. so not only does you;re proposal not capture "100% of the bots" it completely misses RMT guys and includes a large number of normal players, and in the end wouldn't do anything to stop it regardless. but keep thinking! i'm sure you;ll come up with something soon.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.02 02:45:00 - [1410] Edited by: Arnakoz on 02/03/2011 02:46:15 a bit on the lifetime ban thing as well. when i first started playing i looked into what buying an account. and in that process i learned that RMT botters sell their account after the first ban. apparently if they get caught too many times the account does get a perma ban - or at least it attracts unwanted attention to their other accounts. regardless - once a ban happens, they lose the account. so for all reasonable purposes a temp ban of an RMT bot is already a perma ban.

Bhattran	Posted - 2011.03.02 02:48:00 - [1411] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 15:48:05 Originally by: Ephemeron First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals. CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values. Their complete lack of response (other than to send sniper mods in here to delete or edit comments that embarrass CCP) is pretty damming isn't it? I'm beginning to think that we should all just start botting, not for sale or anything but just for ourselves. Why not? CCP doesn't punish it or take it seriously. And it would save us the need to purchase overpriced GTC's to sell as PLEX wouldn't it? It'd be like having your own cadre of Tech moons, without the need to defend them or do the POS logistical bullcrap. Heck, I could have that Aeon I've always wanted by next week. CCP in their silence and inactivity is practically ENDORSING this. I responded to this thread a few times. I stated that we have a team working on the issue and we'd have information for you in the coming weeks. I stated that we in no way endorse this activity and never will. I am pretty clear on these things and that is our one and only policy. I understand that there's a lot of concern in the community about this particular issue. I'm rather concerned myself. Let's not pretend however that simply because I've said something's going to take a bit of time to do well or that because my posts were in the early stages of a large thread, that we're ignoring the issue. We've said precisely the opposite and we have nothing to gain from lying to you. It's a complex issue which requires a careful solution, whether it appears that way outwardly or not. I'd look to Fanfest as a good time to obtain more information on this particular subject as a not-so-subtle hint on when you can expect to hear more. I remember this was the response we got: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=832 A glorified ad to buy plex, more talk about RMT as if the only botting that happens ties in with RMT and a touch of blame on players for not buying plex. Yes it is a complex issue and one that doesn't get solved overnight but it is one you SHOULD have been working on without us poking you, yet it still seems there is little done or that it isn't effective. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.02 03:14:00 - [1412] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 03:17:33 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 03:16:39 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 03:15:42 Quote: Originally by: EphemeronWithin 1 week of intensive analysis CCP could identify near 100% of all the bot farmers. Start with the assumption that someone who bots professionally will have multiple accounts. Check for multiple accounts connected thru 1 IP. That filters out most regular people already. I have 2 accounts... by this logic, Im immediately guilty till proven innocent? Quote: Originally by: Ephemeron Of those that left, get all those that NPC'ed for more than 1 hour in the week. Of those that left, check if 2+ accounts of same IP have NPCed at the same time (not just 1 ratting, 1 salvaging, but both ratting) One of my accounts is a pure missioner... I mission every day for more than 8 hrs a day on that guy... the other is pure miner. Guess what I do on that guy? Quote: Of those that left, get all those that transferred isk from farming accounts to any other account. Of those that left, check if the account that received money was actively played while 2+ other accounts were ratting. LOL I regularly xfer isk to my missioner, who I use as a bank... Damn dude, by your examples, Im botting while Im actively AT MY KEYBOARD see why your idea is fail? ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.02 04:48:00 - [1413] Originally by: CCP Sreegs I responded to this thread a few times. I stated that we have a team working on the issue and we'd have information for you in the coming weeks. I stated that we in no way endorse this activity and never will. I am pretty clear on these things and that is our one and only policy. Actions speak louder than words, and your continued inaction speaks volumes. Considering how little your gms are doing against known botters, your inaction is but an endorsement to botting. My watchlist of botting characters in Shadow of xXDEATHXx alone broke 100 pilots online after a day of roaming around their space. Some of them have been doing their thing for months. I would also like to highlight the 1d bans gms are using as band-aids against denounced characters. Very effective. You're being laughed at by botters on publicly viewable forums..
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.03.02 06:11:00 - [1414] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 03:17:33 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 03:16:39 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 03:15:42 Quote: Originally by: EphemeronWithin 1 week of intensive analysis CCP could identify near 100% of all the bot farmers. Start with the assumption that someone who bots professionally will have multiple accounts. Check for multiple accounts connected thru 1 IP. That filters out most regular people already. I have 2 accounts... by this logic, Im immediately guilty till proven innocent? Quote: Originally by: Ephemeron Of those that left, get all those that NPC'ed for more than 1 hour in the week. Of those that left, check if 2+ accounts of same IP have NPCed at the same time (not just 1 ratting, 1 salvaging, but both ratting) One of my accounts is a pure missioner... I mission every day for more than 8 hrs a day on that guy... the other is pure miner. Guess what I do on that guy? Quote: Of those that left, get all those that transferred isk from farming accounts to any other account. Of those that left, check if the account that received money was actively played while 2+ other accounts were ratting. LOL I regularly xfer isk to my missioner, who I use as a bank... Damn dude, by your examples, Im botting while Im actively AT MY KEYBOARD see why your idea is fail? You didn't read to the end. All that stuff just puts you on suspect list. In the end, it all leads to a GM sending you a convo and you either answering it or not. If you answer, nothing happens.
Archbeholder	Posted - 2011.03.02 06:38:00 - [1415] Originally by: Burnharder Just out of interest, are bots rife in WOW? How do other MMO's deal with this problem? WOW has multiply ingame currencies, botters can only grind for gold. Since most items in wow are bind on acquire, gold is used on misc items such as potions and stuff. So in the even if there are MORE botters in WOW, they don't affect other players nearly as much as in EVE. So in the end WOW economy > EVE economy :D
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.02 07:22:00 - [1416] Originally by: Nina Mercedez Sweet, only 12 deleted replies so far. The original thread will stay on eve-search.com in its unmodded form. Easy enough for people to go look at what was REALLY said, rather than the CCP version of events.
Everard Headbutt	Posted - 2011.03.02 08:08:00 - [1417] Originally by: CCP Adida Removed discussions regarding moderation. If you have an issue on how something was handled please submit a petition. CCP really hasn't learned **** all from the T20 fiasco has it.
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2011.03.02 10:37:00 - [1418] Originally by: Archbeholder Originally by: Burnharder Just out of interest, are bots rife in WOW? How do other MMO's deal with this problem? WOW has multiply ingame currencies, botters can only grind for gold. Since most items in wow are bind on acquire, gold is used on misc items such as potions and stuff. So in the even if there are MORE botters in WOW, they don't affect other players nearly as much as in EVE. So in the end WOW economy > EVE economy :D Touche. I'm planning to buy a leveled WOW account now

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.02 11:51:00 - [1419] Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 02/03/2011 11:51:47 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreegs, thnks for the comment. One reason there has been so much rage for so long in this thread is your last comment was not a few weeks ago, but almost 3 MONTHS ago, somewhat longer then what most would say is "a few weeks". Apparently to them 12 or so is a "few" Botting was also mentioned in a Dev blog on January 20th. This isn't meant as an excuse. I could come here every day and make an obligatory post that says "Hey guys! STILL WORKIN!" but ultimately that's just silly and I'm not going to. That doesn't make a single bot go away any more than replying to every post I ever make on the topic with "DUDE YOUR FACE LMAO" or "YOUR WRONG" does. What being rude does do however is make it less likely that I'll take your thread or post seriously and attempt to give you what information I can. Dealing with this problem correctly can't happen overnight (or even in a few weeks/months). Sure we could oversimplify the issue and come up with a magical list of accounts that we think could be bots, or have a squad of GMs staring at people all day based on a few reports, but at the end of the day would that really solve the issue? I think we need to be careful to make a distinction between effecting real change in the environment and creating a pile of sacrificial lambs. I have no interested in banning a pile of accounts to make a thread go away. (On that note GMs do spend quite a bit of time on bot-related work, whether you've personally observed the results or disagreed with the penalties) I said you'll have some solid information by Fanfest as that's when I have time scheduled to start talking about some of the work we're doing to end the cycle of botting(among other things). For an example of what I mean about the entire cycle you can look to the pretty diagrams in my dev blog Here on phishing. There's no magic algorithm for "bot". There's no single line of code I can add to "remove bot". It makes no sense to have 30 GMs staring at a screen to "detect bot". What does make sense is analyzing the entire problem with a team of individuals and building a very carefully conceived and executed framework that attacks the problem from multiple angles at once, which is our approach.

Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2011.03.02 12:06:00 - [1420] Originally by: CCP Sreegs What being rude does do however is make it less likely that I'll take your thread or post seriously and attempt to give you what information I can. Now that's some professional customer service. You could have just told us in very broad terms what you are working at (hardening the client?, better server-side detection routines?, more/better trained GM staff to deal with the issue? how confident are you that you fully understand the impact of botting on the economy of EVE? maybe you can provide us with some figures that convince us it is in CCP's own financial interest to get rid off bots? ...) and this thread would only be half its size. Most people actually want to believe that CCP does care but you simply don't give them much opportunity to do so. Every comment by CCP seems to be designed to pour some additional fuel into the fire of customer rage. CCP has designed this great game that is all about risk vs reward, moral ambiguity and an "ends justify the means" approach to PvP - the perception that EULA rules on botting are not strictly enforced could have a much bigger impact on the average EVE player's behavior than it would have on the typical player of most other MMOs.

Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.02 12:16:00 - [1421] on a more important topic: i want to know whats being done about the folks that can hide themselves from the local chat until they are ready to attack. if anything in this game creates an unfair pvp experience its that. i've already gone over how botting just doesn't have the massive effect that some think. but i can't think of a single "it doesn't really matter, because..." argument for filtering packets that show a player being in local. in all cases its just plain wrong.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.02 13:02:00 - [1422] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Originally by: CCP Sreegs What being rude does do however is make it less likely that I'll take your thread or post seriously and attempt to give you what information I can. Now that's some professional customer service. You could have just told us in very broad terms what you are working at (hardening the client?, better server-side detection routines?, more/better trained GM staff to deal with the issue? how confident are you that you fully understand the impact of botting on the economy of EVE? maybe you can provide us with some figures that convince us it is in CCP's own financial interest to get rid off bots? ...) and this thread would only be half its size. Most people actually want to believe that CCP does care but you simply don't give them much opportunity to do so. Every comment by CCP seems to be designed to pour some additional fuel into the fire of customer rage. CCP has designed this great game that is all about risk vs reward, moral ambiguity and an "ends justify the means" approach to PvP - the perception that EULA rules on botting are not strictly enforced could have a much bigger impact on the average EVE player's behavior than it would have on the typical player of most other MMOs. I hadn't really considered customer service in that particular quote so much as "This is how you talk to people on the internet or otherwise if you really want to have a conversation". The Golden Rule. Common sense one might say. If the content of a post is nothing more than a snarky remark or insult then one shouldn't wave one's hands 10 pages later screaming "NOBODYS RESPONDING TO MY SERIOUS CONCERN TROLL". The remark wasn't directed at everyone who IS genuinely concerned and in many ways has every right to be angry when they feel others have an unfair advantage over them or is cheating in-game. I agree with the fact that there's a problem that needs to be resolved and if you feel you have a right to be upset about it then you do. We can do that without being big meanies. The team that's working on this problem was being put together long before this thread ever existed. The reason I haven't given you more information is that it was still being formulated and in many cases there are things related to botting and how we deal with it that just won't be public information except in the broadest sense. Hell, things are still going to be in some form of change even a year from now. As I've said, this isn't a one-off process. I believe we fully understand the implications of botting on a particular scale and I also believe as you do that we have a very special product that does indeed amplify those effects. The very large ripple and that very real impact (to grossly oversimplify) are a big part of the reason why we need to be very careful with how we handle the problem.


CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.02 13:06:00 - [1423] Originally by: Arnakoz on a more important topic: i want to know whats being done about the folks that can hide themselves from the local chat until they are ready to attack. if anything in this game creates an unfair pvp experience its that. i've already gone over how botting just doesn't have the massive effect that some think. but i can't think of a single "it doesn't really matter, because..." argument for filtering packets that show a player being in local. in all cases its just plain wrong. While I'll welcome an email to [email protected] if you have any information about this occurring I will say that as part of this same process we're improving the security of the client and, I would think understandably, we can't get into specifics about that but we'll be addressing it as part of the same topic at Fanfest.


CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.02 13:10:00 - [1424] Originally by: Batolemaeus Do you mean game design by that? If so, would you agree that PI should have never been designed the way it went live? And if you agree that game design is the root problem, will there be "iterations" to designs that are either directly promoting botting (courier missions, PI, mining) or are extremely profitable (belt ratting in drone regions, sanctum tengus everywhere else). Also, does that "framework" include something better than 1d temp bans for known bots without confiscation of the resources they cheated? The team is cross-functional and game-design is included. I won't comment on PI one way or another as I'm The Security Guy, not the Game Design Guy and I also don't agree that game design is the root problem. I don't believe the end result you're seeing of the broad topic of "botting" has any one root cause, which is why you see some people going BOTTING IS CAUSED BY RMT, and others going BOTTING IS BECAUSE OF GAME DESIGN! There's overlap with a lot of different things that all need to be addressed. I will say that "Framework" would insinuate the elimination of the problem over time, but I won't address whether any one specific measure will change, though you can be pretty certain what you're referring to will.

Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2011.03.02 13:21:00 - [1425] Originally by: CCP Sreegs ... just want to say "thank you" for that reply
Fellblade	Posted - 2011.03.02 13:24:00 - [1426] Thanks for the replies
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.02 14:19:00 - [1427] First off, thanks for taking your time to respond. I must disagree with you that game design is not the root cause of the current botting problem. While there are other problems like negligence from the Gms or the python injection hole, they are not the root cause but merely side problems. Even widespread acceptance of bots does have a cause somewhere. If you look at the most common bot types, you'll notice that without exception the automated tasks are those which are extremely mechanical in nature. Mining and PI being the poster childs of mechanical "gameplay". Both can be automated with autohotkey scripts, that's how devoid of interaction they are. The root cause of all botting anywhere is where game design promotes mechanical repetition of steps. Whether it is aiming at heads or moving items from one place to another in regular intervals. Good game design kills off any attemts at automation as a mere side effect. If PI was a pallette swapped settlers 2, you wouldn't encounter any worthwhile bots for it, especially if it was competitive. Good game design requires strategical decisions from the player. It's what some of the most famous games are built on entirely. "Just one more turn" doesn't occur because one wants to do the same repetitive steps over and over again, but because all the time there are decisions that require thought. As you might have noticed, autohotkey is pretty bad at making decisions. More elaborate setups don't get over the stage of branching paths and simple scripts either. So to reiterate, there is a root cause, being game design. The problems that have arisen from that root cause are, however, complex. If you just pull the plug on the drone region bots, the market for highmins will be funny for weeks to months. The problem has been ignored for so long that is has become an integral part of Eve. Untangling it is a pretty difficult job and past precedent of ccp's game design capabilities isn't exactly showing promise. Your gms are universially terrible too. (nice job legitimizing ddosing players via convo requests btw., much appreciated) In closing, I wish you luck fighting against the two most unbreakable barriers Eve has in addition to botting itself. You'll need it.
Shandir Minmatar EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.03.02 15:19:00 - [1428] Edited by: Shandir on 02/03/2011 15:19:48 Originally by: CCP Sreegs I won't comment on PI one way or another as I'm The Security Guy, not the Game Design Guy and I also don't agree that game design is the root problem. Can you get the most "Game design guy" working on this problem to give us at least a broad overview of what's on the table? Edit: For PI, and other similarly straightforward tasks.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.02 15:20:00 - [1429] Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 02/03/2011 15:21:58 Originally by: Shandir Originally by: CCP Sreegs I won't comment on PI one way or another as I'm The Security Guy, not the Game Design Guy and I also don't agree that game design is the root problem. Can you get the most "Game design guy" working on this problem to give us at least a broad overview of what's on the table? I could but if you'll notice I'm trying to avoid being too detailed prior to Fanfest, so there's not much he could say right this second. After Fanfest you can expect regular blogs. :edit: Also, the question was something along the lines of What did I think of PI, which really doesn't necessarily belong in this thread.

Jack Gilligan 1st Cavalry Division Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.03.02 15:33:00 - [1430] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 02/03/2011 15:35:58 Quote: I could but if you'll notice I'm trying to avoid being too detailed prior to Fanfest, so there's not much he could say right this second. After Fanfest you can expect regular blogs. Why is this being withheld for Fanfest? This problem has been at crisis proportions for months now and the vast majority of us, as in, we, your customers, as in we who are paying you, aren't GOING to fanfest. I agree with you doing a nice presentation about it there, but I don't think that is appropriate to wait for it or withhold it until then.

Illwill Bill Reign of Anarchy	Posted - 2011.03.02 15:51:00 - [1431] Thank you, Shreegs, for taking your time to reply to this thread. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.02 15:59:00 - [1432] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 02/03/2011 15:35:58 Quote: I could but if you'll notice I'm trying to avoid being too detailed prior to Fanfest, so there's not much he could say right this second. After Fanfest you can expect regular blogs. Why is this being withheld for Fanfest? This problem has been at crisis proportions for months now and the vast majority of us, as in, we, your customers, as in we who are paying you, aren't GOING to fanfest. I agree with you doing a nice presentation about it there, but I don't think that is appropriate to wait for it or withhold it until then. I wouldn't look at it so much as "withholding" information until fanfest so much as that this is the deadline we've set to have everything in an early presentable form.

Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.02 16:36:00 - [1433] Originally by: Batolemaeus The root cause of all botting anywhere is where game design promotes mechanical repetition of steps. Whether it is aiming at heads or moving items from one place to another in regular intervals. Unless you're going to make your game tasks a kind-of Turing test, every problem that is essentially process can be defined with a set of heuristics. It's just a question of how many rules you're going to have in your set. If someone who sells bots is making enough to buy himself a new house, I very much doubt he's going to be put-off increasing the sophistication of the heuristics in question. So I'm not sure how gameplay changes can ever prevent bots. Disclaimer: I've got a degree in AI!
Brannoncyll	Posted - 2011.03.02 16:42:00 - [1434] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Dealing with this problem correctly can't happen overnight (or even in a few weeks/months). Sure we could oversimplify the issue and come up with a magical list of accounts that we think could be bots, or have a squad of GMs staring at people all day based on a few reports, but at the end of the day would that really solve the issue? I think we need to be careful to make a distinction between effecting real change in the environment and creating a pile of sacrificial lambs. I have no interested in banning a pile of accounts to make a thread go away. From this statement we can conclude that CCP are more interested than fixing the problem than doing another Unholy Rage. While I applaud the concept of getting it right, this is basically saying that players are free to continue to bot with impunity for months until these changes are put in place. Is this wise? Perhaps knowing that CCP are not interested in wielding the banhammer to punish cheaters will only encourage more?

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.02 16:53:00 - [1435] Originally by: Brannoncyll From this statement we can conclude that CCP are more interested than fixing the problem than doing another Unholy Rage. While I applaud the concept of getting it right, this is basically saying that players are free to continue to bot with impunity for months until these changes are put in place. Is this wise? Perhaps knowing that CCP are not interested in wielding the banhammer to punish cheaters will only encourage more? I would not make that assumption. For one, as has been pointed out in this thread, we've been at the problem for a few months now. For two, what I'm stating is that there are many facets to the issue that need to be addressed and that it will be a living/breathing process. That doesn't mean we'll sit around and twiddle our thumbs in the meantime. There will be no end and the beginning has already passed is the essence of what I'm getting at.

Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.02 17:04:00 - [1436] Originally by: CCP Sreegs There will be no end and the beginning has already passed is the essence of what I'm getting at. I used to have Perception V. If I interpret that as meaning what I think it means, this is going to be funny...
Everard Headbutt	Posted - 2011.03.02 17:07:00 - [1437] Originally by: CCP Sreegs we've been at the problem for a few months now. So for the previous 4 1/2 years or so that some of us have been petitioning CCP has done **** all except maybe hand out a one day ban?
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.03.02 17:08:00 - [1438] Originally by: Burnharder Originally by: CCP Sreegs There will be no end and the beginning has already passed is the essence of what I'm getting at. I used to have Perception V. If I interpret that as meaning what I think it means, this is going to be funny... Please elaborate. I'm too lazy to read the CCP words, mainly because that's all they are; words.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.02 17:25:00 - [1439] Originally by: Burnharder Disclaimer: I've got a degree in AI! The current limitations of AI should be known to you then. You're hitting a brick wall of complexity once you move away from the purely mechanical. Something that quite a few very smart people all over the world are trying to crack, and yet progress is slow. The interesting part of, say, Civilization, is that most decisions you make are neither binary choices, nor is it immediately apparent which is better without an overarching strategy. This also means that the AI, as complex as it is, still can not compete with a human. Not even close. There is no rule saying that all mmos have to be based around mechanical grind; repetition of the same mechanical steps ad infinitum. While you can not eliminate the people who want to automate their gameplay, you can set the barrier very high for them by reducing the mechanical and introducing the strategic gameplay. You could change botting from being superior to humans to being vastly outclassed by humans, which will have tangible effects on the impact those bots have.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.02 17:36:00 - [1440] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 17:37:25 Originally by: CCP Sreegs That doesn't make a single bot go away any more than replying to every post I ever make on the topic with "DUDE YOUR FACE LMAO" or "YOUR WRONG" does. YES, please blame only me... Plus, yes.... I visit every thread you are in and post exactly that every time you say something. Overexaggerate more please Originally by: Ephemeron You didn't read to the end. All that stuff just puts you on suspect list. In the end, it all leads to a GM sending you a convo and you either answering it or not. If you answer, nothing happens. So by your rationale, If Im playing the game as I do, and alt tab to talk on the forums and miss the GM talking to me, then I MUST be botting and deserve to be banned? Nice logic ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"

Brannoncyll	Posted - 2011.03.02 17:50:00 - [1441] @Kengutsi Akira: CCP Sreegs has kindly spent some of his time responding to our posts. It would be better for us all if we can keep the posts constructive so as not to discourage further communication.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.02 17:51:00 - [1442] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 17:53:49 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 17:51:52 Originally by: Brannoncyll @Kengutsi Akira: CCP Sreegs has kindly spent some of his time responding to our posts. It would be better for us all if we can keep the posts constructive so as not to discourage further communication. Didnt know I wasnt... or is being annoyed that we're not getting info till Fanfest (which I wont be attending) = being rude now? Or at least nonconstructive? We should what, all hang on the promise of Fanfest as the answer to all our woes and be quiet till then? Let this thread die off? That the plan? Also, HE quoted ME Im supposed to ignore the fact that he called me out? ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.02 17:58:00 - [1443] Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: Burnharder Disclaimer: I've got a degree in AI! The interesting part of, say, Civilization, is that most decisions you make are neither binary choices, nor is it immediately apparent which is better without an overarching strategy. This also means that the AI, as complex as it is, still can not compete with a human. Not even close. That's true in the case of a Human expert, but it isn't the case when you're dealing with ordinary people, mostly. I'm not saying all problems Humans can tackle are in-principle computable (I'm not a Materialist or a Functionalist), but in general a lot of every-day tasks are computable and hence software strategies can always be created to defeat the average Human player in performing them. The kind-of things Humans are good at include pattern recognition and context. Indeed the latter is especially important because motivation (intentionality) also comes into play for a Human and that's really hard for a machine to replicate. But we do sometimes get things wrong, such as when filling out Captcha forms and so on; designed as they are to defeat bots, they sometimes also defeat people. Another issue here is that you don't have to create a bot that's better than a Human. You just have to produce one that can play adequately. The mining bot I observed in my system last night was unbelievably stupid. However, slowly but surely it was earning for its owner because unlike the Human player it never gets fatigue. The same is true of ratting and market bots. I'm sure there's a way of performing statistical analysis on DB logs that will distinguish between bot behaviour and genuine player behaviour with a very high level of confidence. Of course one would have to study such behaviours over a period of time to establish the best way of doing it. Probably months, or possibly a year or more, as the GM indicated.
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.02 18:09:00 - [1444] By the way, this is an active area of academic research. For example: Artificial neural network for bot detection system in MMOGs Quote: Abstract: Cheating is one of the biggest and constant problems in MMOGs. Games with high frequency of cheating will surely lose its appeal to genuine players who want to play the game. This is the reason why game provider these days put cheating prevention as one of the top priorities. Bot is just one way of cheating, but very efficient one. There are various methods to prevent cheating using bot. In this paper, we examine the potential of Artificial Neural Network (ANN) to detect and recognize bot from human players. We start with the assumption that one bot always acts in the similar pattern in gameplay. Meanwhile, it is much more rarer to see 2 players with similar gameplay pattern. The result of our experiment supports our initial hypothesis with the potential for future research in order to get better results.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.02 18:20:00 - [1445] Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 02/03/2011 18:21:58 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 17:46:33 Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 17:37:25 Originally by: CCP Sreegs That doesn't make a single bot go away any more than replying to every post I ever make on the topic with "DUDE YOUR FACE LMAO" or "YOUR WRONG" does. YES, please blame only me... Plus, yes.... I visit every thread you are in and post exactly that every time you say something. Overexaggerate more please Originally by: Ephemeron You didn't read to the end. All that stuff just puts you on suspect list. In the end, it all leads to a GM sending you a convo and you either answering it or not. If you answer, nothing happens. So by your rationale, If Im playing the game as I do, and alt tab to talk on the forums and miss the GM talking to me, then I MUST be botting and deserve to be banned? Nice logic Originally by: CCP Sreegs What being rude does do however is make it less likely that I'll take your thread or post seriously So us being ****ed at ppl being allowed to cheat in the game (and they are being allowed till you all start acting on them) will result in you ignoring the thread and in essence the problem (as all the mods are directing us to only this thread, locking any talk elsewhere)? Its nice an cool that youre talking to us regularly now (not telling us anything) but some communication is better than none. I couldn't possibly quote every post on the page and I apologize if my hitting quote on yours made you feel targeted as you weren't. I had thought I had stated that I wasn't speaking to any particular individual.. Now you being a bad or angry poster isn't going to make me ignore the issue at all. I have a job to do. I will not continue to have a dialogue with you however if you are being abusive. I don't get paid to post. We can disagree without being disagreeable. Not just you. Everyone. Being angry is no cause to be mean. I realize that this is the internet, but to use an analogy, if you were in a restaurant and you got a steak you didn't like and you addressed an employee of that establishment the way some forumgoers address devs at times you'd be escorted from the restaurant. It's simply uncivil behavior. Again, not you specifically but to people in general. I don't think it's too much to ask to be able to make some posts about an issue people care about without a few bad eggs being big jerks.

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.02 18:26:00 - [1446] Edited by: Othran on 02/03/2011 18:28:08 While its nice to see some "blue lines" appearing in the thread which aren't deleting things ........ .....simple fact is that the "punishment" CCP hands out in relation to non-RMT botting has been a joke for years. People like me have only discovered it recently - last year wandering around Stain was my "epiphany" - but its been like this for four or five YEARS, in terms of your "punishments". Hard to take anyone seriously when they do nothing to discourage the practice until a megathread hits their forums - and even then we're speculating you ARE going to do something. Edit - techical measures are all well and good but if the punishment is a slap on the wrist.... these people downloaded the bot, they PAID for the bot, its not accidental so 3 day bans are in no way adequate.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.02 18:53:00 - [1447] Originally by: CCP Sreegs big meanies. later Originally by: CCP Sreegs big jerks. Im actually not being a **** here but your wording is really strange to me. Sounds really young or something ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.02 18:56:00 - [1448] CCP Sreegs, thanks for the posts. There are a couple of question you may be able to answer now, before fanfest. First, these are about those who use bots for in-game advantage, not for RMT. Why, as a company, does CCP want to eliminate the accounts of those who use bots when doing so reduces CCP's income? I ask because in many of the posts here it is stated that CCP likes the bots because they pay for a subscription (indirectly, via PLEX), and hence their elimination would hurt CCP's bottom line. (My answer: too many bots, game dies, CCP's bottom line takes BIG hit). Has CCP ever perma-banned an account for botting? Again, not RMT, just botting. If so, did you delete their account and assets? Has CCP ever removed the isk gained from botting from the game? Again, not RMT, just botting. Has CCP ever perma-banned a PLAYER for botting? That is delete all their accounts, and not accept any future accounts from that player? (My guess is this is not technically possible, but I thought I'd ask.) Thank you.
Greniard	Posted - 2011.03.02 19:02:00 - [1449] Edited by: Greniard on 02/03/2011 19:03:24 Such huge fail at damage control... CCP Sreegs: any particular reason bans for botting are at most 3 days? Someone might actually care about longer bans and close down their sub, losing CCP $15/month? (Edit: Seems the person above me is on the same lines. Maybe we both get our messages deleted )

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.02 19:03:00 - [1450] Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 02/03/2011 18:28:08 While its nice to see some "blue lines" appearing in the thread which aren't deleting things ........ .....simple fact is that the "punishment" CCP hands out in relation to non-RMT botting has been a joke for years. People like me have only discovered it recently - last year wandering around Stain was my "epiphany" - but its been like this for four or five YEARS, in terms of your "punishments". Hard to take anyone seriously when they do nothing to discourage the practice until a megathread hits their forums - and even then we're speculating you ARE going to do something. Edit - techical measures are all well and good but if the punishment is a slap on the wrist.... these people downloaded the bot, they PAID for the bot, its not accidental so 3 day bans are in no way adequate. While I don't want to speculate on the specifics of what the end result from a punishment perspective will be our intent is to eliminate the problem. Obviously if people don't feel there's a disincentive they won't stop.



CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.02 19:04:00 - [1451] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Originally by: CCP Sreegs big meanies. later Originally by: CCP Sreegs big jerks. Im actually not being a **** here but your wording is really strange to me. Sounds really young or something It's a trick I use to remain PC where I replace vulgarity with childhood terms.

Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.02 19:08:00 - [1452] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 02/03/2011 19:10:30 Yeah, I was figuring there was gonna be an answer along the lines of "we dont discuss these matters" like every GM ever gives in any other game. Not trying to be mean, its just the way it works. Originally by: CCP Sreegs It's a trick I use to remain PC where I replace vulgarity with childhood terms. I like it, its funny ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.02 19:11:00 - [1453] Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 02/03/2011 19:12:00 Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreegs, thanks for the posts. There are a couple of question you may be able to answer now, before fanfest. First, these are about those who use bots for in-game advantage, not for RMT. Why, as a company, does CCP want to eliminate the accounts of those who use bots when doing so reduces CCP's income? I ask because in many of the posts here it is stated that CCP likes the bots because they pay for a subscription (indirectly, via PLEX), and hence their elimination would hurt CCP's bottom line. (My answer: too many bots, game dies, CCP's bottom line takes BIG hit). Has CCP ever perma-banned an account for botting? Again, not RMT, just botting. If so, did you delete their account and assets? Has CCP ever removed the isk gained from botting from the game? Again, not RMT, just botting. Has CCP ever perma-banned a PLAYER for botting? That is delete all their accounts, and not accept any future accounts from that player? (My guess is this is not technically possible, but I thought I'd ask.) Thank you. The first question is one I haven't FULLY researched but the general consensus is that removing bots actually increases CCP's income because we have more happy customers. The idea that we would want people to bot for $15 is a false one, though I could see why some people would leap to that conclusion. We don't delete accounts. We have perma-banned a volume of accounts for botting, specifics I don't want to get into at the moment, in the past couple of months. Like in one shot, not the normal over time bans. There are normal bans that occur practically every day. Many of them permanent. Questions regarding asset disposal would require more research and I'll ask around, but it has certainly been a consideration for the process going forward. :edit: I'm ducking a little bit but it's after hours here in beautiful Reykjavik.

Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.02 19:36:00 - [1454] All their stuffs are belong to meeeeeee! seriously tho... give it to ME lol ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Grey Stormshadow	Posted - 2011.03.02 20:40:00 - [1455] CCP Sreegs, just wanted to thank you for the constructive replies.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.02 20:44:00 - [1456] Originally by: CCP Sreegs While I don't want to speculate on the specifics of what the end result from a punishment perspective will be our intent is to eliminate the problem. Obviously if people don't feel there's a disincentive they won't stop. Well I hope this marks a change in the way your company approaches the issue. We'll see.
Minister Ben	Posted - 2011.03.02 20:51:00 - [1457] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 02/03/2011 19:12:00 Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreegs, thanks for the posts. There are a couple of question you may be able to answer now, before fanfest. First, these are about those who use bots for in-game advantage, not for RMT. Why, as a company, does CCP want to eliminate the accounts of those who use bots when doing so reduces CCP's income? I ask because in many of the posts here it is stated that CCP likes the bots because they pay for a subscription (indirectly, via PLEX), and hence their elimination would hurt CCP's bottom line. (My answer: too many bots, game dies, CCP's bottom line takes BIG hit). Has CCP ever perma-banned an account for botting? Again, not RMT, just botting. If so, did you delete their account and assets? Has CCP ever removed the isk gained from botting from the game? Again, not RMT, just botting. Has CCP ever perma-banned a PLAYER for botting? That is delete all their accounts, and not accept any future accounts from that player? (My guess is this is not technically possible, but I thought I'd ask.) Thank you. The first question is one I haven't FULLY researched but the general consensus is that removing bots actually increases CCP's income because we have more happy customers. The idea that we would want people to bot for $15 is a false one, though I could see why some people would leap to that conclusion. We don't delete accounts. We have perma-banned a volume of accounts for botting, specifics I don't want to get into at the moment, in the past couple of months. Like in one shot, not the normal over time bans. There are normal bans that occur practically every day. Many of them permanent. Questions regarding asset disposal would require more research and I'll ask around, but it has certainly been a consideration for the process going forward. :edit: I'm ducking a little bit but it's after hours here in beautiful Reykjavik. Thank you for your response, its nice to have some news as opposed to no news.
Mater Miner	Posted - 2011.03.02 20:59:00 - [1458] Edited by: Mater Miner on 02/03/2011 21:01:40 Lets realy get the word out and get this into the face of more then just eve players. nullhttp://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/profile.php?id=100000055505344&sk=wallnull P.S. CCP u maybe able to remove this link posted on ur forums but u wont beable to remove the link posted on the other site linking here.
Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous	Posted - 2011.03.02 21:09:00 - [1459] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 02/03/2011 18:28:08 While its nice to see some "blue lines" appearing in the thread which aren't deleting things ........ .....simple fact is that the "punishment" CCP hands out in relation to non-RMT botting has been a joke for years. People like me have only discovered it recently - last year wandering around Stain was my "epiphany" - but its been like this for four or five YEARS, in terms of your "punishments". Hard to take anyone seriously when they do nothing to discourage the practice until a megathread hits their forums - and even then we're speculating you ARE going to do something. Edit - techical measures are all well and good but if the punishment is a slap on the wrist.... these people downloaded the bot, they PAID for the bot, its not accidental so 3 day bans are in no way adequate. While I don't want to speculate on the specifics of what the end result from a punishment perspective will be our intent is to eliminate the problem. Obviously if people don't feel there's a disincentive they won't stop. Final solution best solution. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Jessie42 Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.03.02 22:07:00 - [1460] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Originally by: CCP Sreegs big meanies. later Originally by: CCP Sreegs big jerks. Im actually not being a **** here but your wording is really strange to me. Sounds really young or something It's a trick I use to remain PC where I replace vulgarity with childhood terms. I wonder where you learnt such an art form.

Juil Gallente Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.	Posted - 2011.03.02 22:27:00 - [1461] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 02/03/2011 19:12:00 Lots of posts. Sreegs, First off thanks for giving us more then a few words and the like, see part of this whole issue is communication... or the apparent lack there of. Now I can understand that CCP doesn't want to give away how they are planning on stopping botting in specific but at the same time the constant 'wait until fanfest' also is starting to be seen as a joke to those of us who don't have several thousand dollars to go to fanfest and who have played eve since castor or the like and watched things being said they are being done and then appear to just be swept to the side. I know this is not you personally but lets look at just the lines of communication we the players have to you CCP in regards to this single issue 'Botting'. - The forums/dev blogs. - The CSM On the forums it appears that we don't get a lot in the way back which is why people get upset after all you yourself have pointed out we see this as a major issue, and the most we get told is 'we are doing something about it honest!' now it'd be nice to take that on face value but due to the issues in the past i think CCP's burnt a lot of peoples fuses so to speak on just what they are willing to take on face value these days. On the CSM Side you only have to look at the minutes and you see the entire conversation was removed due to NDA. That basically completely closes down that avenue. Then when we do get Dev Blogs on the issue it all appears to be about Real Money Transfers. That's fine except that to a lot of people the RMT part isn't the Largest part of the problem, instead to a lot of us from reading this thread the problem is that we have to work hard for what we get in game, Carebears spend weeks if not months mining to get a billion isk for example, mission runners do missions, pvp'ers do well what pvp'ers do ;) blow people up. But either way we are all 'working' so to speak to get what we have... and then we see bots running about working 23 hours of the day 7 days a week.. at no cost really to the owners who are pulling in materials, isk etc at rates which we the normal person can never match and thus the owners have a world of materials that we can't match giving them a massively unfair advantage.. I mean lets face it if I had several billion isk to blow would I worry about loosing a Battleship or a carrier ? I don't think so. And then when we do complain about the issue we get very little in feedback (until the last few posts I'll again give you credit for those) or told again 'wait until fanfest'. The issue there is that CCP is seen as doing Nothing, ever since Exodus/Cold war we know there have been bots.. RMR was when it started to get real bad (any one remember going out into every belt in a system to find there wasn't one because the macro miners had cleaned em all out?) and we got the unholy rage and hulkaggedon (the later is doubtable but hey they have fun and it's in the spirit of the game) that put at least a dent into some of it, but since then the problems gotten worse and nothing happens each expansion etc to fix the problem. Also Fanfest to a lot of us is seen as the 'cop out excuse' it may not be seen as such to you, but as pointed out a lot of people don't go to fanfest, same goes for other companies big things like blizcon or whatever we don't care/have the money etc to go, so when we are told it'll be discussed here, I know to me it's like 'Great and once again our voice gets ignored because were not rich enough to go look the dev's in the face and say 'Fix it'. Plus lets face it as I said a lot of stuff gets promised at Fanfest then 2 - 4 years later we are still waiting, heck even dev blogs a lot gets promised and then 2 - 4 years later we still waiting. I think the solution to the 'ccp fix it rage' is really simply communication and proof, Blizzard worked that one out and it stopped a lot of the rage, now CCP needs to. - Juil Intergrated Information Services Information is Power
Juil Gallente Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.	Posted - 2011.03.02 22:34:00 - [1462] Ran out of room ;) How exactly you'd go about doing this is as you have said hard, you don't want to obviously let people know how the changes are being done because that would allow the botters to over come them, but at the same time if it appears your doing nothing people get angry. You've basically stated you won't name and shame which ok privacy laws kinda mean you can't I also understand that part, but there is NOTHING stopping you posting the numbers of bans handed out each month / quarter something like a new post once a month with "CCP's war on bots CCP has continued it's war on botters and others who break the EULA with 200 3 day warning bans, and 100 permabans occuring, due to EULA breachs, we would like to remind ALL players that we take these breaches seriously, we hope to one day be able to post 'no bans have been given out because every one is playing by the rules' " Obviously that's just an example but it'd at least show people your doing something. The other aspect is that a LOT of the perception for the botting comes from the fact that mining etc is that BORING and basically 'point, click, have a smoke, drag some ore, have some coffee' etc etc etc that it's an easy bot etc.. and it's been that way since well forever.. some how something needs to be done to make things require more interaction and thus.. not only help relieve the mining bordem but be seen as making it harder for bots to simply click a button and drag. I could go on but I figure one whole post and a half is enough.. Again I'd like to say thank you for some of the replies they are helpful but yeah more communication = good.. Please? - Juil Intergrated Information Services Information is Power

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.02 22:42:00 - [1463] Originally by: Juil Originally by: CCP Sreegs Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 02/03/2011 19:12:00 Lots of posts. a really big post I agree that communication is a big part of the issue. I've explained the reasoning behind waiting for fanfest and while you might say that it seems like a copout 3 weeks doesn't really give me a whole lot of wiggle-room to not look like an idiot in that regard. I also said that following fanfest if there's no video we'll be releasing regular blogs and while I didn't state it explicitly in the absence of something EVERYONE can watch the first blog will be essentially what's shared at fanfest. I understand that people feel this issue's been festering for a long time and there's really and truly nothing I can do about that. I've only been here a few months and there are fresh members of the team who have been here even less. One of the reasons we're here is because CCP recognized that this (among other things) needed to be addressed. So, hyperbole aside one should at least lend an ear to the fact that CCP recognized that there were problems of a very specific nature and hired very specialized people to deal with them. I don't think that means you should suddenly be happy or even necessarily take my telling you that we're working on a solution of solutions for granted. What I can say though is that there are people devoted to this task a few of whom are sourced primarily to this task. I can tell you that this isn't considered a "feature". It's a security problem and it's being addressed as such. I can understand your perspective regarding features not being delivered, but given that you're not going to get any detailed information for 3 weeks or so you could give us a chance to get the ball rolling and I welcome you to pass judgement once we've released some more information. Otherwise you could pass judgement in the meantime but really you'd just be kicking around the new(ish) guy and that could get old.

Juil Gallente Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.	Posted - 2011.03.02 22:49:00 - [1464] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Juil Originally by: CCP Sreegs Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 02/03/2011 19:12:00 Lots of posts. a really big post I agree that communication is a big part of the issue. I've explained the reasoning behind waiting for fanfest and while you might say that it seems like a copout 3 weeks doesn't really give me a whole lot of wiggle-room to not look like an idiot in that regard. I also said that following fanfest if there's no video we'll be releasing regular blogs and while I didn't state it explicitly in the absence of something EVERYONE can watch the first blog will be essentially what's shared at fanfest. I understand that people feel this issue's been festering for a long time and there's really and truly nothing I can do about that. I've only been here a few months and there are fresh members of the team who have been here even less. One of the reasons we're here is because CCP recognized that this (among other things) needed to be addressed. So, hyperbole aside one should at least lend an ear to the fact that CCP recognized that there were problems of a very specific nature and hired very specialized people to deal with them. I don't think that means you should suddenly be happy or even necessarily take my telling you that we're working on a solution of solutions for granted. What I can say though is that there are people devoted to this task a few of whom are sourced primarily to this task. I can tell you that this isn't considered a "feature". It's a security problem and it's being addressed as such. I can understand your perspective regarding features not being delivered, but given that you're not going to get any detailed information for 3 weeks or so you could give us a chance to get the ball rolling and I welcome you to pass judgement once we've released some more information. Otherwise you could pass judgement in the meantime but really you'd just be kicking around the new(ish) guy and that could get old. Damn.. that's a fast responce ;) Ok I'll give you your 3 - 4 weeks hows that sound lol. But can you PLEASE make certain that the information does get posts ASAP from the Fanfest? Ie not 6 months later :) and I also understand that you don't want to be constantly feeling like great i'm here to fix the problem and now there attacking me. That's why i stated 'not necessaryly you' but ccp as a whole. And my reasoning behind the Fanfest comment is simply that everything tends to be 'fanfest' that is all, ie anything to do with Incarna.. fanfest, anything to do with x fanfest it's not an attack on you personally. So ok i'll give ya 4 weeks and maybe the others might too.. i can't speak for them ;) - Juil Intergrated Information Services Information is Power
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.03 01:09:00 - [1465] Originally by: Juil "CCP's war on bots CCP has continued it's war on botters and others who break the EULA with 200 3 day warning bans, and 100 permabans occuring, due to EULA breachs, we would like to remind ALL players that we take these breaches seriously, we hope to one day be able to post 'no bans have been given out because every one is playing by the rules' " Warhammer used to do that exact thing. Theyd put out a system message when they caught a goldspammer/guyer/seller and how they got eviscerated/hanged/burt at the stake. One of the few cool things about the game. ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.03.03 01:33:00 - [1466] So... you've been plotting for months? really? lol you know if it was giving you such trouble you should've just hired me, I've lived with bots for three years now. I could scorch just about every 0.0 bot in less then half a month, with at least a 99% accuracy rating. But I suppose nobody likes to do things the brute force way anymore... Becoming an old man I guess. It's all about the high-level plotting and scheming these days. tsk tsk.
mkmin	Posted - 2011.03.03 01:37:00 - [1467] Originally by: CCP Sreegs a lot of stuff that makes him my new favorite dev From you telling people to stop being asshats, or ****tards in appropriate childhood epithets, to the very clear "yes we consider this a problem, yes it is a problem, yes there is a team on it and yes there are individuals working on it full time" I have to say you're my favorite dev right now. It is extremely infuriating that the mega alliances have all the supercaps they want for free. It's frustrating that CCP (who is on record for having cheated for mega alliances in the past) has seemed to let it slide in the past. It's extremely encouraging to see the very first real dev posts acknowledging that it is a problem and that they are committed to making it go away. That's mostly what we've wanted. Well, that and actually making it go away.
Angel of Night	Posted - 2011.03.03 03:40:00 - [1468] ^^ well said. Thanks about the good informative dev posts.
Juil Gallente Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.	Posted - 2011.03.03 04:23:00 - [1469] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Warhammer used to do that exact thing. Theyd put out a system message when they caught a goldspammer/guyer/seller and how they got eviscerated/hanged/burt at the stake. One of the few cool things about the game. Yeah Mythic used to be great ... before they sold out lol. But I mean it could even be kept in 'universe' if you don't like we have caught x amount of bots' as the news item.. ie: In recent developments Concord has reported that it's long running investigations into Pilot Licencing Abuse claims have began to show fruit with XXXX pod pilots being found in clear violation of the Yula Protocols, after through investigation these pilots have had their Pod Licenses permenantly revoked and their assets seized. The investigation team is continuing to look at all reports that come over its desk and would like to remind all pilots that breachs of the terms they agree to when being issued their Piloting Licenses are not to be triffled with and if they breach these conditions they will be found and delt with. Though I honestly would also like to see the BIGGER botters fully hung out named etc it's how it happens in real life. - Juil Intergrated Information Services Information is Power
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.03 08:52:00 - [1470] Would it be possible to use a blizzard style authenticator device to not only secure accounts but also to secure the client - prevent it from being hacked? --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.

Pesadel0 the muppets RED.OverLord	Posted - 2011.03.03 10:06:00 - [1471] Thanks for the reply Sreegs , You are my new hero:)
Don Kartel	Posted - 2011.03.03 10:10:00 - [1472] Edited by: Don Kartel on 03/03/2011 10:11:05 You Need to do something like this again Look at alliances like white noise which have emassed large super cap fleets over a short period its pretty obvious botting is giving these alliance a massive advantage. Also recently there has been inflation reported in the game. Can't think what is causing that
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2011.03.03 11:50:00 - [1473] Banning botters is only a temporary solution and maybe not a profitable solution for CCP even. There two unsolvable shorts for bots. Those are reading relyed instructions (makes things impossible;no AI are able to read correctly at the monent, the only thing they could do is linking an image of words to an action) and simple but varying possibilities (makes things too expansive, a swap between 3 objects will increase possibility by 6,4 by 12 and so on). With the combination of these two, what? A bot-generated(random) reading content? Yes, If the coder could't get a stable copy/image of words there is no way to let the bot to "read". When we use bots counter bots, the bot which issue questions gets best advantage: He doesn't have to understand anything. For now it already dosen't worth to write a bot for kill missions, not only for the income but also due to the variability. Maybe someone could make one withch based on selected missions, then another variable added to missions would make it totally no value. Image your bot fly a raven to the warpgate, but this time it requires one metalscrap in your cargo to active the gate, maybe next time you need to shoot a building, with a randomly-generated name. Those sub-variables could be shared by missions but the code for them couldn't, just member bots can't actually read. If there is a need of read in mining, like description, then there are no bot could understand. Although they are made up by the same words. For example we have A,B,C drills, I fly to a astorid it tells me "Use Drill A will be nice. Use Drill C will cause explosion, Use Drill B will be nice if you want to die". Then How can I write a bot to make it out? Maybe someone very brillant would write a code check if there is a keyword "want to die ". Ok there is still ways to break it(although expensive) because there is only one action "mining". To totally solve mining macros seems we need some changes in basis. As the examples it seems not hard to kill macros from their possibility. That is someone said which I totally agree: "Poor game design is the root of macros". Since we haven't got any AI could understand what entertainment is.
DonHel Gallente Kentucky Fried Capsuleer	Posted - 2011.03.03 12:40:00 - [1474] Is there any way to report bots and actually have something done, or do we have to watch them do it everyday and just live with it. And just occasionally pop their hulks/covetors/retrievers and watch thier pods warp back n forth? I have been watching someones bots for like 10 days now, and am planning to gank them to hell everyday for a bit. But it's in a 0.8 so i can only do it so much before i become an eveil pirate dude bieng shot at by gate guns n such lol
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.03 12:48:00 - [1475] Originally by: Don Kartel Edited by: Don Kartel on 03/03/2011 10:11:05 You Need to do something like this again Look at alliances like white noise which have emassed large super cap fleets over a short period its pretty obvious botting is giving these alliance a massive advantage. Also recently there has been inflation reported in the game. Can't think what is causing that hmm. given that I was driven out of ATLAS space, I would LOVE to agree with you here. but I dont think boting is their trick. I think it has more to do with IT and PL specifically giving them the reigns for that region. while some botting may be involved (pure speculation) i wouldn't imagine it to have contributed much to their success.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.03 13:01:00 - [1476] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Would it be possible to use a blizzard style authenticator device to not only secure accounts but also to secure the client - prevent it from being hacked? Firstly, I'm glad this is helpful to you guys even though I'm not able to provide a mountain of information at this time. So <3 for the thanks. As regards authenticators, I've mentioned it in a Dev Blog and Authentication is one of the things we've been looking at. Auth will be an additional topic of conversation during the fanfest presentation.

Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2011.03.03 13:03:00 - [1477] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 03/03/2011 13:06:25 Originally by: Kogh Ayon With the combination of these two, what? A bot-generated(random) reading content? Yes, If the coder could't get a stable copy/image of words there is no way to let the bot to "read". you realize that mission instructions, dialog boxes, ... etc. are just HTML formatted pieces of text that can easily be searched for keywords? Here's a nice (real world) example of a bot "reading" the mission description to determine the enemy faction: Quote: private DamageType GetMissionDamageType(string html) { // We are going to check damage types var logoRegex = new Regex("img src=\"factionlogo:(?<factionlogo>\\d+)"); var logoMatch = logoRegex.Match(html); if (logoMatch.Success) { var logo = logoMatch.Groups["factionlogo"].Value; // Load faction xml var xml = XDocument.Load(Path.Combine(Path.GetDirectoryName(Assembly.GetExecutingAssembly().Location), "Factions.xml")); var faction = xml.Root.Elements("faction").Where(f => (string) f.Attribute("logo") == logo).FirstOrDefault(); if (faction != null) return (DamageType) Enum.Parse(typeof (DamageType), (string) faction.Attribute("damagetype")); } return DamageType.EM; } The bot just uses a search pattern (aka regular expression or short: regex) to look for the filename of the small image indicating the enemy faction. Then it decides which damage types to use for ammo based on that information. (@mods please understand that this sample of code was taken from a public website and is completely useless in itself - my intention is to demonstrate a point and that's best done by referring to real-world samples instead of made-up pseudocode @world obviously I cannot give copyright attribution without violating the forum rules) Even if your bot had no way to hook into the EVE client OCR on machine-written pieces of text is easy (even more so if you know the font that has been used and can train the OCR algorithms accordingly).

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.03 13:04:00 - [1478] Originally by: DonHel Is there any way to report bots and actually have something done, or do we have to watch them do it everyday and just live with it. And just occasionally pop their hulks/covetors/retrievers and watch thier pods warp back n forth? I have been watching someones bots for like 10 days now, and am planning to gank them to hell everyday for a bit. But it's in a 0.8 so i can only do it so much before i become an eveil pirate dude bieng shot at by gate guns n such lol Part of what we're trying to get done is achieving precisely this. As I said, solving the problem has multiple angles to it, one of which is being able to properly follow through and action on reports by players and on top of that repeat offenders. It's not to say there's not some of this going on today but it could be done a lot better. We have a solution to that and as soon as we're ready to implement (like REALLY soon) I'll let you guys know.

DonHel Gallente Kentucky Fried Capsuleer	Posted - 2011.03.03 13:09:00 - [1479] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: DonHel Is there any way to report bots and actually have something done, or do we have to watch them do it everyday and just live with it. And just occasionally pop their hulks/covetors/retrievers and watch thier pods warp back n forth? I have been watching someones bots for like 10 days now, and am planning to gank them to hell everyday for a bit. But it's in a 0.8 so i can only do it so much before i become an eveil pirate dude bieng shot at by gate guns n such lol Part of what we're trying to get done is achieving precisely this. As I said, solving the problem has multiple angles to it, one of which is being able to properly follow through and action on reports by players and on top of that repeat offenders. It's not to say there's not some of this going on today but it could be done a lot better. We have a solution to that and as soon as we're ready to implement (like REALLY soon) I'll let you guys know. awesome, good to know!
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.03 13:19:00 - [1480] So, players report bots, GM's investigate and flag bot players as criminals. Bots flash red for a month. No sec hits or concord for capping them. That would be pretty awesome :p. But that's just the high-sec solution. Wouldn't work in 0.0, unfortunately. btw I'm speculating!

Shandir Minmatar EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.03.03 13:21:00 - [1481] Originally by: CCP SreegsPart of what we're trying to get done is achieving precisely this. As I said, solving the problem has multiple angles to it, one of which is being able to properly follow through and action on reports by players and on top of that repeat offenders. It's not to say there's not some of this going on today but it could be done a lot better. We have a solution to that and as soon as we're ready to implement (like REALLY soon) I'll let you guys know.[/quote Is it legally impossible (I find this difficult to believe) to publish the character/account names of a player who breaks the EULA? To name and shame them without revealing RL personal information. Similarly, is there a legal reason why a player reporting an incident is never informed of the result of it - or is this simply policy? If so, why is this so?

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.03 13:53:00 - [1482] Originally by: Shandir Originally by: CCP Sreegs Part of what we're trying to get done is achieving precisely this. As I said, solving the problem has multiple angles to it, one of which is being able to properly follow through and action on reports by players and on top of that repeat offenders. It's not to say there's not some of this going on today but it could be done a lot better. We have a solution to that and as soon as we're ready to implement (like REALLY soon) I'll let you guys know. Is it legally impossible (I find this difficult to believe) to publish the character/account names of a player who breaks the EULA? To name and shame them without revealing RL personal information. Similarly, is there a legal reason why a player reporting an incident is never informed of the result of it - or is this simply policy? If so, why is this so? I'm having a hard time quoting this soooo let's see how it works. We would never publish account names. Not publishing character names would be a policy decision which would involve a lot of discussion. What I can say is that we'll explore every option. Players being informed of results is a policy decision. I'm not on the customer service side, but I can say this I think... We've always considered administrative action to be between us and the person being actioned. There could be any number of reasons for this that I could only guess at but the most obvious is that we need to be able to maintain with our players that the contents of their petitions will remain confidential between them and us. Maintaining that trust is pretty important to us so we'd have to be very careful about any instances where we may think about changing that.

Don Kartel	Posted - 2011.03.03 14:14:00 - [1483] Edited by: Don Kartel on 03/03/2011 14:15:25 Here is a few idea's restrict eve so it doesn't run in VMWARE - easily done if you do a graphics driver check on startup - Just make the VWWARE SVGA driver unsupported. Ban the use of ISboxer - apparently this is allowed but more people use if for botting than what they make out they use it for. Allow players to scan down/hack giant secure containers in space - Botters use these for re-supply of ammo and to dump loot. Dead give away when you go into a system and think there is a bot and you see containers called loot and ammo or salvage on directional scan. Give a solution to perma cloakers either probing them our or decloaking. Some of these ideas don't help the problem because people will just put up pos's but POS's cause logistics problems and fuel costs isk so reduces the income of them.
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.03 14:19:00 - [1484] Originally by: Don Kartel restrict eve so it doesn't run in VMWARE - easily done if you do a graphics driver check on startup - Just make the VWWARE SVGA driver unsupported. I didn't think VMWare ran D3D 9, or at least support is patchy (up to shader model 2.0).

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.03 14:31:00 - [1485] Originally by: Burnharder Originally by: Don Kartel restrict eve so it doesn't run in VMWARE - easily done if you do a graphics driver check on startup - Just make the VWWARE SVGA driver unsupported. I didn't think VMWare ran D3D 9, or at least support is patchy (up to shader model 2.0). EVE can be run in VMware today.

Rorriana	Posted - 2011.03.03 14:38:00 - [1486] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Burnharder Originally by: Don Kartel restrict eve so it doesn't run in VMWARE - easily done if you do a graphics driver check on startup - Just make the VWWARE SVGA driver unsupported. I didn't think VMWare ran D3D 9, or at least support is patchy (up to shader model 2.0). EVE can be run in VMware today. Is there any information from the technical/procedural side of botting that will be helpful to you in your endeavors CCP Sreegs? I assume you guys have a compiled list of current botting software, as well as sample of them, and samples of the source code of the bigger open source ones as well? Just want to be sure there is nothing that we as players cna do to assist, because currently the only thing we can do is report players, which due to a complete lack of transparency appears to us to have no effect()despite assurances to the contrary).
Darth Vapour	Posted - 2011.03.03 15:09:00 - [1487] This Fanfest thing had better be something epic like the on-screen running of a massive banning script. And not a bunch if slides explaining all the fancy new tools CCP has come up with to better detect bots in the future.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.03 15:16:00 - [1488] Originally by: Darth Vapour This Fanfest thing had better be something epic like the on-screen running of a massive banning script. And not a bunch if slides explaining all the fancy new tools CCP has come up with to better detect bots in the future. Whoah let's not set the bar TOO high there brosef


CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.03 15:17:00 - [1489] Originally by: Rorriana Is there any information from the technical/procedural side of botting that will be helpful to you in your endeavors CCP Sreegs? I assume you guys have a compiled list of current botting software, as well as sample of them, and samples of the source code of the bigger open source ones as well? Just want to be sure there is nothing that we as players cna do to assist, because currently the only thing we can do is report players, which due to a complete lack of transparency appears to us to have no effect()despite assurances to the contrary). If you want to contribute the best thing you can do is send any samples or information you might be concerned about to [email protected]. I've said in the past that we do reverse engineer these things but we can't always be aware of every single thing that's out there, so if there's particular information you think we should be privvy to that's always the best place for it to go.

Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.03.03 15:31:00 - [1490] Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 03/03/2011 15:32:20 Originally by: Shandir Is it legally impossible (I find this difficult to believe) to publish the character/account names of a player who breaks the EULA? To name and shame them without revealing RL personal information. I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that 'our' characters only belong to us through the limited license of our subscription, subject to the terms of the EULA. If a player violates the EULA, CCP has the right to revoke the limited license (perma ban), and full ownership of the character reverts to CCP. So long as CCP does not reveal any information about the real world player associated with the account, I should think that they can do anything they like with the reputation and/or 'property' of any unlicensed character. Originally by: CCP Sreegs Players being informed of results is a policy decision. I'm not on the customer service side, but I can say this I think... We've always considered administrative action to be between us and the person being actioned. Given a reasonable amount of time for an account holder to petition, I'd love to see a wall of shame listing characters banned and why. Major busts might even be worth a news article. Given the negative press and buzz that Eve has been getting for loose enforcement of the rules, I should think that would be just the thing to get the word out that CCP is taking action.

E man Industries	Posted - 2011.03.03 16:01:00 - [1491] Thanks for the posts. Know it sucks to wade into this hornests nest where no post other than "I have solved botting and every bot has been banned"(and actually have it done) would make people happy. That said We really need to see some action rahter than words on this. We all see botters and the effects of botters and they are not diminishing in number. Better punishments for the acount and all those that benifited are needed. (whats the down side to paying for an acount in plex and botting then giving the isk to my main) Make this punishment known...If i was looking at botting the risk of losing my main would be a strong deterent. Punish the alliances and corps who support botting. Public shaming would be nice....list charcters and the corp/alliances that benifited. ______ Hello WoW players. Look at your toon, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me, but if it wasn't simplistic pre scripted linear mono dimensional game you could look like me. I'm in a Paladin
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.03 16:14:00 - [1492] Edited by: Othran on 03/03/2011 16:19:16 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Darth Vapour This Fanfest thing had better be something epic like the on-screen running of a massive banning script. And not a bunch if slides explaining all the fancy new tools CCP has come up with to better detect bots in the future. Whoah let's not set the bar TOO high there brosef Lets not set it too low either otherwise a lot of us will be thinking "mmm more snow". You may be the "new guy" but you're the company and the company has "history" on things like this.... I think you should expect to be providing a framework that we can ALL understand - players, GMs, devs, whoever. Anything less and I think you'll have an uncomfortable time - both online and at fanfest. Edit - and by "framework" I mean some clear concise PUBLIC rules about what happen to people who deliberately set out to cheat. This isn't like some accidental exploit so I'd like to see a clear PUBLIC chart of what the process is - eg first time = 1 week ban; second = 3 months; third = permaban
Jaik7	Posted - 2011.03.03 16:32:00 - [1493] postin in epic long thread makin noise bout bots. dunno what to do bout them, but they are making my veldspar nearly worthless. love the veldspar dude.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.03 16:38:00 - [1494] Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 03/03/2011 16:19:16 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Darth Vapour This Fanfest thing had better be something epic like the on-screen running of a massive banning script. And not a bunch if slides explaining all the fancy new tools CCP has come up with to better detect bots in the future. Whoah let's not set the bar TOO high there brosef Lets not set it too low either otherwise a lot of us will be thinking "mmm more snow". You may be the "new guy" but you're the company and the company has "history" on things like this.... I think you should expect to be providing a framework that we can ALL understand - players, GMs, devs, whoever. Anything less and I think you'll have an uncomfortable time - both online and at fanfest. Edit - and by "framework" I mean some clear concise PUBLIC rules about what happen to people who deliberately set out to cheat. This isn't like some accidental exploit so I'd like to see a clear PUBLIC chart of what the process is - eg first time = 1 week ban; second = 3 months; third = permaban Those public rules would be a small part of any Framework. As I said, this isn't a feature. It doesn't fit within the rubrick of anything you've had to experience like a feature. I'm not promising you a new spaceship or mechanic, so let's not get confused about promises and deliverables. I'm talking about security process and some things we'll be doing from a technical and business perspective to deliver on that process. It's there. It's happening and it's moving. I think there's a very big difference. I'm not here to wow you with explosions and features and pretty shiny things. I'm here to talk to you about how we think about security and some specific items we've implemented and will be implementing going forward.

Lady Cazana	Posted - 2011.03.03 16:42:00 - [1495] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 03/03/2011 16:19:16 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Darth Vapour This Fanfest thing had better be something epic like the on-screen running of a massive banning script. And not a bunch if slides explaining all the fancy new tools CCP has come up with to better detect bots in the future. Whoah let's not set the bar TOO high there brosef Lets not set it too low either otherwise a lot of us will be thinking "mmm more snow". You may be the "new guy" but you're the company and the company has "history" on things like this.... I think you should expect to be providing a framework that we can ALL understand - players, GMs, devs, whoever. Anything less and I think you'll have an uncomfortable time - both online and at fanfest. Edit - and by "framework" I mean some clear concise PUBLIC rules about what happen to people who deliberately set out to cheat. This isn't like some accidental exploit so I'd like to see a clear PUBLIC chart of what the process is - eg first time = 1 week ban; second = 3 months; third = permaban Those public rules would be a small part of any Framework. As I said, this isn't a feature. It doesn't fit within the rubrick of anything you've had to experience like a feature. I'm not promising you a new spaceship or mechanic, so let's not get confused about promises and deliverables. I'm talking about security process and some things we'll be doing from a technical and business perspective to deliver on that process. It's there. It's happening and it's moving. I think there's a very big difference. I'm not here to wow you with explosions and features and pretty shiny things. I'm here to talk to you about how we think about security and some specific items we've implemented and will be implementing going forward. PWND by the new guy
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.03 16:59:00 - [1496] Edited by: Vincent Athena on 03/03/2011 17:01:05 CCP Sreegs, you said that you are relatively new, and others on your team are even newer. This made me curious... Does your team have a cool name, like team gridlock? When did CCP decide a bigger, better team was needed for security issues? How did they come to that conclusion? How did CCP handle the bot issue before your team was formed? How many are on the team? Is it still growing? What other security issues does the team deal with? I know of phishing, botting, RMT, hacking... others? Edit: Can you fix the typo on the title of this thread? Thanks again for your posts. This tread has gone from a grim depressing flame fest to fun and hopeful. P.S. Others may want to re-read Sreegs blog on phishing. I get the idea that the framework to be used to fight bots will be like the one presented for combating phishing, and the frameworks for the various security issues will be all interconnected.
Rorriana	Posted - 2011.03.03 17:28:00 - [1497] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Rorriana Is there any information from the technical/procedural side of botting that will be helpful to you in your endeavors CCP Sreegs? I assume you guys have a compiled list of current botting software, as well as sample of them, and samples of the source code of the bigger open source ones as well? Just want to be sure there is nothing that we as players cna do to assist, because currently the only thing we can do is report players, which due to a complete lack of transparency appears to us to have no effect()despite assurances to the contrary). If you want to contribute the best thing you can do is send any samples or information you might be concerned about to [email protected]. I've said in the past that we do reverse engineer these things but we can't always be aware of every single thing that's out there, so if there's particular information you think we should be privvy to that's always the best place for it to go. Silly question CCP Sreegs, if you don't mind. Do you guys have anyone on your team who is experienced running bot/macros in MMOs or dealing in RMT?

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.03 17:52:00 - [1498] Originally by: Rorriana Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Rorriana Is there any information from the technical/procedural side of botting that will be helpful to you in your endeavors CCP Sreegs? I assume you guys have a compiled list of current botting software, as well as sample of them, and samples of the source code of the bigger open source ones as well? Just want to be sure there is nothing that we as players cna do to assist, because currently the only thing we can do is report players, which due to a complete lack of transparency appears to us to have no effect()despite assurances to the contrary). If you want to contribute the best thing you can do is send any samples or information you might be concerned about to [email protected]. I've said in the past that we do reverse engineer these things but we can't always be aware of every single thing that's out there, so if there's particular information you think we should be privvy to that's always the best place for it to go. Silly question CCP Sreegs, if you don't mind. Do you guys have anyone on your team who is experienced running bot/macros in MMOs or dealing in RMT? I'll answer the one above this in a bit, but yes to the bot/macro question and no to the dealing in RMT if you're referring to running an RMT ring. We'll spend some time introducing and going over the various backgrounds of some of the team at FF.

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.03 18:35:00 - [1499] Edited by: Othran on 03/03/2011 18:36:11 Originally by: Lady Cazana PWND by the new guy Oh I do hope thats true. We've heard plenty of fine words from CCP before - LONG before the new guy was here - so lets see what happens. If there isn't a significant reduction in bots then we know its just more fine words and no actions....
Trinneth Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters	Posted - 2011.03.03 19:21:00 - [1500] Originally by: CCP Sreegs We'll spend some time introducing and going over the various backgrounds of some of the team at FF. Thanks for posting in this thread Screegs - you may not be able to give us much in the way of specifics until Fanfest, but just knowing you'll be talking about how you intend to deal with the issue at Fanfest is a lot more encouraging than the previous radio-silence was.

JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2011.03.03 19:28:00 - [1501] Dev communicating with players is always a good sign and brings hope for the future. Waiting for fanfest then.
Corran Do'Urden Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.03.03 19:39:00 - [1502] I think the end result of this discussion is this: CCP must take a far more aggressive stance against botting. What does that entail? A: Banning accounts that are known for botting. How? Any of the previously mentioned warping off, logs, tracking methods as stated before. Hours in game, NPC kills, so many tools already exist for similar purposes. B: Banning accounts that initiated the character. If you've PLEX'd that account into existence, there's a record of that. That character should disappear as well for being the creator of the bot. C: Any alts or other registered accounts linked into that account. Why? If getting caught as a botter becomes extremely hazardous to any and all EVE characters linked to them, a lot of characters will stop. If not, then it's a win situation for CCP. It would be a win as the banned botter will now have to make a new account and PLEX them up to continue botting. That is more subscription fees, promptly followed by another ban. D: The transferred ISK is deleted. Everyone knows that's possible. It's not hard. E: Stop talking about the changes upcoming and the measures that will be implemented. Actually implement them. Everyone's tired of hearing 'Change will come, just wait.' It's been 5 years. Incarna is on this same waiting scale. Difficulty of banning? Minor. Difficulty of creating an entire world inside of every star base with optimal functionality? Hard. The sad part is we could all force CCP into acting. How? By stopping playing for 2 months. Massive subscription loss would force a confrontation either way. Either way, CCP needs to step up their game and act instead of talking, otherwise they're going to have a continually angered player base that will start shrinking.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.03 20:40:00 - [1503] Originally by: Corran Do'Urden I think the end result of this discussion is this: CCP must take a far more aggressive stance against botting. What does that entail? A: Banning accounts that are known for botting. How? Any of the previously mentioned warping off, logs, tracking methods as stated before. Hours in game, NPC kills, so many tools already exist for similar purposes. B: Banning accounts that initiated the character. If you've PLEX'd that account into existence, there's a record of that. That character should disappear as well for being the creator of the bot. C: Any alts or other registered accounts linked into that account. Why? If getting caught as a botter becomes extremely hazardous to any and all EVE characters linked to them, a lot of characters will stop. If not, then it's a win situation for CCP. It would be a win as the banned botter will now have to make a new account and PLEX them up to continue botting. That is more subscription fees, promptly followed by another ban. D: The transferred ISK is deleted. Everyone knows that's possible. It's not hard. E: Stop talking about the changes upcoming and the measures that will be implemented. Actually implement them. Everyone's tired of hearing 'Change will come, just wait.' It's been 5 years. Incarna is on this same waiting scale. Difficulty of banning? Minor. Difficulty of creating an entire world inside of every star base with optimal functionality? Hard. The sad part is we could all force CCP into acting. How? By stopping playing for 2 months. Massive subscription loss would force a confrontation either way. Either way, CCP needs to step up their game and act instead of talking, otherwise they're going to have a continually angered player base that will start shrinking. I may have missed it somewhere in my time as a player but could you please point me in any direction whatsoever regarding the 5 years of statements from CCP that this particular problem will be addressed? It's an honest question because I don't ever recall this much outrage until the past couple of months, nor do I recall any promises to resolve the problem prior to Unholy Rage.

Rorriana	Posted - 2011.03.03 21:15:00 - [1504] Edited by: Rorriana on 03/03/2011 21:22:55 Originally by: CCP Sreegs I'll answer the one above this in a bit, but yes to the bot/macro question and no to the dealing in RMT if you're referring to running an RMT ring. We'll spend some time introducing and going over the various backgrounds of some of the team at FF. I won't make FF sadly, but I hope to catch a recording of that panel. Thanks for answering questions today Sreegs, we all appreciate it greatly! EDIT: Unneeded info removed
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.03.03 21:41:00 - [1505] Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 03/03/2011 21:43:37 Originally by: CCP Sreegs I may have missed it somewhere in my time as a player but could you please point me in any direction whatsoever regarding the 5 years of statements from CCP that this particular problem will be addressed? It's an honest question because I don't ever recall this much outrage until the past couple of months, nor do I recall any promises to resolve the problem prior to Unholy Rage. You'll have to excuse some of our more jaded players (myself included), but this is a problem that's been around for a long, long, time. I couldn't find anything promising to resolve the issue prior to Unholy Rage, but these threads should give you some background on why we're a bit cynicalà Some ancient (2004) history on the issue, just for flavor... http://eve-search.com/thread/122291 Seem familiar? http://eve-search.com/thread/273924 CCP does care...(circa 2006) http://eve-search.com/thread/362920/author/CCP
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.	Posted - 2011.03.03 22:06:00 - [1506] Originally by: Soi Mala You guys should find this hilarious... For the last couple of weeks, my corporation has been greifing an alliance - Wardecs, camping the pipe to their 0.0 home, afk cloakers etc. One guy in particular has parked a few of his alts in their space, particularly the ratting systems, where he afk cloaks most of the day, every day. If he happened to be around while targets were out, he'd probe and blackops bridge for us etc. You might argue about the lameness of these tactics etc but that is beside the point. A few days ago, his alt accounts received mails stating that they had been banned for 3 days, reason: use of a macro/bot. Really? These accounts that had been sat perfectly inactive? Not killed rats, not mined, not done anything? What exactly were they macroing? He was asked to explain why he was logged in all the time, as this was highly suspicious, as opposed to just logging in and probing when he needed to. Apparently this is behavior exhibited by RMTers. He appealed and luckily got the bans lifted, but the whole thing caused megalols amongst the corp. Perhaps the funniest thing in my eyes, wasn't the lack of reasoning, but the fact that it was only a 3 day ban... Seriously, that is supposed to stop these botters? Hardly the kind of punishment i'd class as "unholy rage". CCP being CCP as far as efficiency go... What is frightening is that they think a three days ban is somehow a deterrent.
Delianora	Posted - 2011.03.03 22:08:00 - [1507] Why can't we move ice to low sec--all of hi sec ice? Why can't you just move it for a WEEK and see what happens as a test? Why can't you have a client side delayed local so botters can't warp away when a neutral enters the system? If you can't do that--why can't you program a CCP invisible shuttle that is a bot that just warps from system to system all day. It would trigger bot programs to "warp to safe and cloak". Since regular people CANT SEE IT--then BOOM you have logs on every botter in every system every night? What is wrong with that idea?
mkmin	Posted - 2011.03.03 22:13:00 - [1508] Originally by: Delianora If you can't do that--why can't you program a CCP invisible shuttle that is a bot that just warps from system to system all day. It would trigger bot programs to "warp to safe and cloak". Since regular people CANT SEE IT--then BOOM you have logs on every botter in every system every night? What is wrong with that idea? That only works until the botters make a simple change of comparing the local list to the in-system players list, and ignores people who are in-system but not on local. That would only work if there was no local, and I don't think this is the time to remove it yet.
Ai Shun Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.03 22:20:00 - [1509] Originally by: Don Kartel restrict eve so it doesn't run in VMWARE - easily done if you do a graphics driver check on startup - Just make the VWWARE SVGA driver unsupported. Please, no. I keep different Hyper-V based VM's for different purposes. That way I can snapshot and drag them to any node as I need to reallocate resources, etc. Banning the use of technology isn't the real answer to the problem.
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.03 22:20:00 - [1510] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 03/03/2011 21:43:37 Originally by: CCP Sreegs I may have missed it somewhere in my time as a player but could you please point me in any direction whatsoever regarding the 5 years of statements from CCP that this particular problem will be addressed? It's an honest question because I don't ever recall this much outrage until the past couple of months, nor do I recall any promises to resolve the problem prior to Unholy Rage. You'll have to excuse some of our more jaded players (myself included), but this is a problem that's been around for a long, long, time. I couldn't find anything promising to resolve the issue prior to Unholy Rage, but these threads should give you some background on why we're a bit cynicalà Some ancient (2004) history on the issue, just for flavor... http://eve-search.com/thread/122291 Seem familiar? http://eve-search.com/thread/273924 CCP does care...(circa 2006) http://eve-search.com/thread/362920/author/CCP The hilarious thing about those threads is that they come interspersed with google adverts for macros.

Sito Jaxa	Posted - 2011.03.03 22:39:00 - [1511] With all this anti-botting talk I must say I'm worried that CCP will make a knee-jerk reaction that will ultimately give rise to tremendous RMT pressures in the game. The biggest weapon CCP has against RMT are PLEX, hands down. Many players sell PLEX to get ISK as the safe alternative to conventional RMT. The trouble is that many of people consuming plex are doing so for their bot accounts. There are thousands of bots in EVE and every one of those bots pays at least one account by buying PLEX. If CCP stepped up action against bots the /casual/ botters would be all but gone, the value of PLEX would drop, and the serious RMT elements would reap huge profits (inverse relationship between PLEX value and RMT isk price). This would just lead to a new generation of very devious RMT professionals stepping up hacking and other unsavory ways to make ISK. So not only does CCP then lose many, many accounts (their bottom line is effected), but they expose all of the legitimate players to increased motive for keylogger trojans, etc. I want to advocate finding another solution besides mass bans and 'tough on crime' mentality that clearly works so well (think of the war on drugs). CCP could use its anti-botting energy to tweak game mechanics that are easily exploited, leading to a significant reduction in the effectiveness of bots. If making isk legitimately were at all comparable to what bots can do, then maybe people wouldn't be driven to botting by hundreds of hours of mind numbingly repetative actions required to pay for endgame content. At the very least I just want to advocate that CCP think through their changes and address structural deficiency instead of just hammering whatever nail sticks up the most.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.03 23:03:00 - [1512] Originally by: Sito Jaxa snip This would just lead to a new generation of very devious RMT professionals stepping up hacking and other unsavory ways to make ISK. I think this is one reason why CCP is taking so long to get the framework going. They want to have counters in place for when the bot users try to adapt. Originally by: Sito Jaxa snip CCP could use its anti-botting energy to tweak game mechanics that are easily exploited, leading to a significant reduction in the effectiveness of bots. If making isk legitimately were at all comparable to what bots can do, then maybe people wouldn't be driven to botting by hundreds of hours of mind numbingly repetative actions snip Like what? Can you give an example? And I do not mean a vague description like "something not repetitive", but a detailed description of a change to game mechanics. And remember, to meet your criteria, it must make isk at a comparable rate to the bots even for a player that is on for a short time, vs that same player running 20 bots 23/7. Because if those 20 bots can make more isk, there is still incentive to bot. Also, it has to not make the game so complex that new players run screaming. Think about that "eve learning curve" cartoon. Its already a cliff. Also remember that after a day at the office some of us want to have our minds numbed. We do not want to have to intensely play some mini-game just to mine.
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2011.03.03 23:24:00 - [1513] Originally by: Sito Jaxa With all this anti-botting talk I must say I'm worried that CCP will make a knee-jerk reaction that will ultimately give rise to tremendous RMT pressures in the game. The biggest weapon CCP has against RMT are PLEX, hands down. Many players sell PLEX to get ISK as the safe alternative to conventional RMT. The trouble is that many of people consuming plex are doing so for their bot accounts. There are thousands of bots in EVE and every one of those bots pays at least one account by buying PLEX. If CCP stepped up action against bots the /casual/ botters would be all but gone, the value of PLEX would drop, and the serious RMT elements would reap huge profits (inverse relationship between PLEX value and RMT isk price). This would just lead to a new generation of very devious RMT professionals stepping up hacking and other unsavory ways to make ISK. So not only does CCP then lose many, many accounts (their bottom line is effected), but they expose all of the legitimate players to increased motive for keylogger trojans, etc. I want to advocate finding another solution besides mass bans and 'tough on crime' mentality that clearly works so well (think of the war on drugs). CCP could use its anti-botting energy to tweak game mechanics that are easily exploited, leading to a significant reduction in the effectiveness of bots. If making isk legitimately were at all comparable to what bots can do, then maybe people wouldn't be driven to botting by hundreds of hours of mind numbingly repetative actions required to pay for endgame content. At the very least I just want to advocate that CCP think through their changes and address structural deficiency instead of just hammering whatever nail sticks up the most. There is absolutely no reason not to do both. Changing the game mechanics to be less do-able by bots is going to result in bot subs not being renewed.. so just get rid of them anyway. And I'd say it is a misconception that all of RMT = Bot. There are quite a number of RMT companies that simply hire cheap labor for 10-15 hour days to sit at the computer and do the work. Ban bot users, ban illegal RMT sellers AND buyers, and change game mechanics to make it harder to bot, and make it easier for bots to be hunted by the players themselves. Sure don't hammer one nail.. Hammer all of Them. If a person/corp/alliance can not handle the game within the rules set by the company.. they obviously are failures and should probably leave. Plenty of people with busy rl lives, that follow the rules, get by jus' fine. The growing value of industry for legit players and the lovely chaotic mess of nullsec as a result of bot (and supercap fleet) death.. would provoke on upturn of legit people staying/joining/creating alts.. and more corps/alliances in nullsec. So instead of 50k Sundays = maybe 20k seperate people + alts n loads of bots.. the eventual result would be 50k Sundays.. with say 30k individual people. Having more DIFFERENT people is better for the game ultimately than jonny-bot and his army of bot alts doing nothing for the game except artificial deflation and PLEX price increase just so his one combat main can go risk his Nyx. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.03.03 23:36:00 - [1514] 0.0 botters wouldn't be so damn annoying if EVE wasn't designed in such a way that a battleship in 0.0 can make lots of isk with near-100% safety. That's the fundamental flaw in EVE. In empire, people use bots to fly really cheap, easily replaceable ships doing courier missions. Killing them barely hurts the botter, as they lose almost nothing. Again, the problem is with game design - missions too easy, ships are too cheap. Killing people should hurt - that what's supposed to make EVE special. If some group of people **** off large number of other people in EVE - it should be possible to completely destroy that group - especially if they don't fight back.
The Old Chap	Posted - 2011.03.03 23:49:00 - [1515] After all this discussion and no moves to address the botting, one can only assume that it is so rife that to get rid of it would have such an impact on CCP's revenue stream that they can't do it without RL economic repercussions. So the problem will not and can not go away, I'm guessing.
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.03.03 23:49:00 - [1516] Originally by: Ai Shun Originally by: Don Kartel restrict eve so it doesn't run in VMWARE - easily done if you do a graphics driver check on startup - Just make the VWWARE SVGA driver unsupported. Please, no. I keep different Hyper-V based VM's for different purposes. That way I can snapshot and drag them to any node as I need to reallocate resources, etc. Banning the use of technology isn't the real answer to the problem. Well certain technology DOES need to get 'banned' but I agree targeting VMware isn't the solution. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.03.03 23:53:00 - [1517] Originally by: Ephemeron 0.0 botters wouldn't be so damn annoying if EVE wasn't designed in such a way that a battleship in 0.0 can make lots of isk with near-100% safety. That's the fundamental flaw in EVE. To some extent, you are right. This needs to be changed, but I find it more problematic that playing 23/7 actually gives you a linearly scaled income compared to normal play tims. Is EVE PVE designed for bots, or is it designed for humans who cannot play 23/7 (and are not allowed to share accounts)? Quote: In empire, people use bots to fly really cheap, easily replaceable ships doing courier missions. Killing them barely hurts the botter, as they lose almost nothing. Again, the problem is with game design - missions too easy, ships are too cheap. What makes you think that they wouldn't use more expensive ships if they had to? Missions are the easiest part to fix: limit the number of missions that can be done per type, char and day. Will some people complain? For sure, but it's not the only occasion where people will be told by the community that EVE isn't a PVE game ... How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Corran Do'Urden Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.03.04 00:02:00 - [1518] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Corran Do'Urden I think the end result of this discussion is this: CCP must take a far more aggressive stance against botting. What does that entail? A: Banning accounts that are known for botting. How? Any of the previously mentioned warping off, logs, tracking methods as stated before. Hours in game, NPC kills, so many tools already exist for similar purposes. B: Banning accounts that initiated the character. If you've PLEX'd that account into existence, there's a record of that. That character should disappear as well for being the creator of the bot. C: Any alts or other registered accounts linked into that account. Why? If getting caught as a botter becomes extremely hazardous to any and all EVE characters linked to them, a lot of characters will stop. If not, then it's a win situation for CCP. It would be a win as the banned botter will now have to make a new account and PLEX them up to continue botting. That is more subscription fees, promptly followed by another ban. D: The transferred ISK is deleted. Everyone knows that's possible. It's not hard. E: Stop talking about the changes upcoming and the measures that will be implemented. Actually implement them. Everyone's tired of hearing 'Change will come, just wait.' It's been 5 years. Incarna is on this same waiting scale. Difficulty of banning? Minor. Difficulty of creating an entire world inside of every star base with optimal functionality? Hard. The sad part is we could all force CCP into acting. How? By stopping playing for 2 months. Massive subscription loss would force a confrontation either way. Either way, CCP needs to step up their game and act instead of talking, otherwise they're going to have a continually angered player base that will start shrinking. I may have missed it somewhere in my time as a player but could you please point me in any direction whatsoever regarding the 5 years of statements from CCP that this particular problem will be addressed? It's an honest question because I don't ever recall this much outrage until the past couple of months, nor do I recall any promises to resolve the problem prior to Unholy Rage. I think a few instances were linked above, and as for Unholy Rage, I'm not raging. I'm just rather disappointed at the continued rise of botters with no updates or new measures implemented beyond here and there bans where the player base had to observe and hunt down. I do not think it should primarily be up to your customers to report who's abusing the system. That should be CCP's domain.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.04 00:22:00 - [1519] Originally by: Corran Do'Urden Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Corran Do'Urden I think the end result of this discussion is this: CCP must take a far more aggressive stance against botting. What does that entail? A: Banning accounts that are known for botting. How? Any of the previously mentioned warping off, logs, tracking methods as stated before. Hours in game, NPC kills, so many tools already exist for similar purposes. B: Banning accounts that initiated the character. If you've PLEX'd that account into existence, there's a record of that. That character should disappear as well for being the creator of the bot. C: Any alts or other registered accounts linked into that account. Why? If getting caught as a botter becomes extremely hazardous to any and all EVE characters linked to them, a lot of characters will stop. If not, then it's a win situation for CCP. It would be a win as the banned botter will now have to make a new account and PLEX them up to continue botting. That is more subscription fees, promptly followed by another ban. D: The transferred ISK is deleted. Everyone knows that's possible. It's not hard. E: Stop talking about the changes upcoming and the measures that will be implemented. Actually implement them. Everyone's tired of hearing 'Change will come, just wait.' It's been 5 years. Incarna is on this same waiting scale. Difficulty of banning? Minor. Difficulty of creating an entire world inside of every star base with optimal functionality? Hard. The sad part is we could all force CCP into acting. How? By stopping playing for 2 months. Massive subscription loss would force a confrontation either way. Either way, CCP needs to step up their game and act instead of talking, otherwise they're going to have a continually angered player base that will start shrinking. I may have missed it somewhere in my time as a player but could you please point me in any direction whatsoever regarding the 5 years of statements from CCP that this particular problem will be addressed? It's an honest question because I don't ever recall this much outrage until the past couple of months, nor do I recall any promises to resolve the problem prior to Unholy Rage. I think a few instances were linked above, and as for Unholy Rage, I'm not raging. I'm just rather disappointed at the continued rise of botters with no updates or new measures implemented beyond here and there bans where the player base had to observe and hunt down. I do not think it should primarily be up to your customers to report who's abusing the system. That should be CCP's domain. I wasn't referring to you raging duder I was referring to the Unholy Rage project where we banned a few thousand botting accounts. I can also tell you that the playerbase is not and never has been the sole or even the primary source of bot hunting.

Corran Do'Urden Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.03.04 00:29:00 - [1520] I want to say 'oh rearry?' but that's a bad idea. Instead I wish you luck.

Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.04 01:18:00 - [1521] Originally by: Corran Do'Urden ... A: Banning accounts that are known for botting. How? Any of the previously mentioned warping off, logs, tracking methods as stated before. Hours in game, NPC kills, so many tools already exist for similar purposes. B: Banning accounts that initiated the character. If you've PLEX'd that account into existence, there's a record of that. That character should disappear as well for being the creator of the bot. C: Any alts or other registered accounts linked into that account. Why? If getting caught as a botter becomes extremely hazardous to any and all EVE characters linked to them, a lot of characters will stop. If not, then it's a win situation for CCP. It would be a win as the banned botter will now have to make a new account and PLEX them up to continue botting. That is more subscription fees, promptly followed by another ban. D: The transferred ISK is deleted. Everyone knows that's possible. It's not hard. E: Stop talking about the changes upcoming and the measures that will be implemented. Actually implement them. Everyone's tired of hearing 'Change will come, just wait.' It's been 5 years. Incarna is on this same waiting scale. Difficulty of banning? Minor. Difficulty of creating an entire world inside of every star base with optimal functionality? Hard. you make it sound so easy. A. i've so far shown that every metric proposed, aside from 23/7 play, is not a good metric to determine bots. read back and i'm sure you'll find my posts. i would actually go as far as saying that no one in this thread has yet to come up a single "this exclusively flags a bot" or or even a group of such items for that matter. just a bunch of people claiming it would be "so easy". a.1 logs would be good to look for consistency - like if they return to the station every X minutes give or take. problem becomes that the bot makers would simply randomize that. i would imagine they already do. then they wouldn't look any different from a real miner as far as logs are concerned. a.2 npc kills isn't really a good metric because some rat in anoms and kill every rat, while others only chain belts and kill the bigger/longer-to-kill rats. meaning an RP in an anom would kill more than a bot in belts. so again, the only metric that is truly a red flag is 23/7 game play. but i would imagine that only the idiot botters play more than maybe 8-10 hours a day for that very reason. B. what do you mean by initiated? you dont need to have an account to create one now, do you? and if you;re talking about IPs... one, they are most frequently dynamic, so one would never know if they "actually" match and 2. people who game from subnets, like a college, would all have the same IP. so which accounts to ban? C. as far as i know they already do ban all associated accounts. but the real problem here is again, how to tell that they are in fact associated. any RMT guy with an IQ over 80 will use the TOR network, or a series of proxies, to mask the relationship between their bots for this very reason. D. again, i'm pretty sure this is already done as well. but we still have the issues stated above - what metrics can be used to tell that it isn't a legit transfer, and how do you associate laundered isk and earned isk? E. what i think CCP should respond with: stop talking about how "CCP should really do something" and not providing a single real solution to the problem. criticism is fine, but if you can't do anything to provide a solution then it is pointless and simply rude. and on that note - maybe people here could start providing solutions, that they have actually THOUGHT thru. not just "its easy, if they mine, ban them!!" or "no real person can run 3 accounts at once!!" or something equally absurd.
Corran Do'Urden Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.03.04 01:41:00 - [1522] you make it sound so easy. A. i've so far shown that every metric proposed, aside from 23/7 play, is not a good metric to determine bots. read back and i'm sure you'll find my posts. i would actually go as far as saying that no one in this thread has yet to come up a single "this exclusively flags a bot" or or even a group of such items for that matter. just a bunch of people claiming it would be "so easy". a.1 logs would be good to look for consistency - like if they return to the station every X minutes give or take. problem becomes that the bot makers would simply randomize that. i would imagine they already do. then they wouldn't look any different from a real miner as far as logs are concerned. a.2 npc kills isn't really a good metric because some rat in anoms and kill every rat, while others only chain belts and kill the bigger/longer-to-kill rats. meaning an RP in an anom would kill more than a bot in belts. so again, the only metric that is truly a red flag is 23/7 game play. but i would imagine that only the idiot botters play more than maybe 8-10 hours a day for that very reason. B. what do you mean by initiated? you dont need to have an account to create one now, do you? and if you;re talking about IPs... one, they are most frequently dynamic, so one would never know if they "actually" match and 2. people who game from subnets, like a college, would all have the same IP. so which accounts to ban? C. as far as i know they already do ban all associated accounts. but the real problem here is again, how to tell that they are in fact associated. any RMT guy with an IQ over 80 will use the TOR network, or a series of proxies, to mask the relationship between their bots for this very reason. D. again, i'm pretty sure this is already done as well. but we still have the issues stated above - what metrics can be used to tell that it isn't a legit transfer, and how do you associate laundered isk and earned isk? E. what i think CCP should respond with: stop talking about how "CCP should really do something" and not providing a single real solution to the problem. criticism is fine, but if you can't do anything to provide a solution then it is pointless and simply rude. and on that note - maybe people here could start providing solutions, that they have actually THOUGHT thru. not just "its easy, if they mine, ban them!!" or "no real person can run 3 accounts at once!!" or something equally absurd. Unless your university is different, most universities have static IP's. They don't change. Stuff from Comcast, yeah, that changes on whenever you refresh your connection. Mac address can be changed as well, etc, etc. Far as I know I don't share my IP with anyone else. Also, by initiated, Bob uses the guess past to get a 14 day character. Bob sends his new alt a plex to convert into a legit account and proceeds to bot. Hence Bob initiated the botting and should be banned. Far as I'd wager, a fair amount of statistics would be useful for tracking trends of established botters and then used in comparison to find more. My 'providing a situation' as you so called above.
Sito Jaxa	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:01:00 - [1523] Originally by: Vincent Athena Like what? Can you give an example? And I do not mean a vague description like "something not repetitive", but a detailed description of a change to game mechanics. And remember, to meet your criteria, it must make isk at a comparable rate to the bots even for a player that is on for a short time, vs that same player running 20 bots 23/7. Because if those 20 bots can make more isk, there is still incentive to bot. Also, it has to not make the game so complex that new players run screaming. Think about that "eve learning curve" cartoon. Its already a cliff. One fantastic example of CCP moving in the right direction is where they intended PI to go. Where it wound up I'm not sure sure is ideal, but the notion sure had potential. PI shows it is reasonable that, just like you gain SP over time, you could also make isk over time. Where it gets kludgey is that the logistics involved become a nightmare and again give advantage to bots. It gets more complicated still with the notion of raw material production over time vs raw material production over effort when you consider that the influx of actual ISK into the economy is still from rats and missions (botfest). So using PI as an example here's a shooting from the hip just thought up vision of how EVE could work in a bot neutral way- Mineral extractors could be like mini-POS that you plop down right in an asteroid belt. The extractor has its own mining lasers and collects minerals on a 24 hour cycle. This complements PI goods and moon mats which also produce over time. The next step is ofc manufacturing, which beyond logistics is also already time based. The final piece to the puzzle which is what would actually change the game is that manufacturers would be able to produce goods that can be sold to NPC entities for ISK. While this sounds odd at first by the current notion of 'player driven economy', consider that currently our ISK comes from missions and bounties and is generated out of nowhere. With this idea there is at least some role-playing notion that people on a planet are buying your goods and that is where the isk is generated. Players would need to decide on whether they want to produce consumables directly or produce ships/mods to sell to other players, but ultimately the eve economy would be driven by manufacturing. Raw materials would not just produce an endless stream of ships but also contribute to wealth, so when things are quiet in 0.0 and the economy is slower people amassing isk would remove resources from the game, keeping mining and other industries profitable. Anyway, there's an idea for you to satisfy your request.
Ai Shun Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:25:00 - [1524] Originally by: Corran Do'Urden Unless your university is different, most universities have static IP's. They don't change. Not for every single device on campus they don't - at least not usually. If yours do, you're lucky, because universities are some of the prime users of NAT devices, where you are assigned an IP within one of the legitimate private network ranges and the device itself takes care of the NAT tables for routing traffic between the private subnet and the single public IP. This is a particular problem with the depletion of IPv4 address pool. As you're probably aware, the last blocks were automatically allocated last month (Or the month before?) Same with Hotels, Internet Cafes and other locations where a number of users on a private network share a single public IP. As soon as you start banning an IP everybody else behind that IP gets blocked. If I was a student I'd be royally hacked off if somebody three doors down was botting and as a result nobody in our dorm could play EVE anymore. Or if, at some stage, a guest in the hotel was running a bot and now every subsequent guest that may be on a trip and playing EVE for a bit couldn't. No, I think that needs a bit more thought Corran.
Corran Do'Urden Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.03.04 02:26:00 - [1525] Well, the Cal Poly sucks and blows at the same time then ;p
Kushan Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:05:00 - [1526] Originally by: CCP Sreegs stuffs Good posts, Sreegs. Thanks for braving the angry unwashed masses and taking the time to write them.
Natalia Kovac Minmatar Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:14:00 - [1527] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 15:48:05 Originally by: Ephemeron First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals. CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values. Their complete lack of response (other than to send sniper mods in here to delete or edit comments that embarrass CCP) is pretty damming isn't it? I'm beginning to think that we should all just start botting, not for sale or anything but just for ourselves. Why not? CCP doesn't punish it or take it seriously. And it would save us the need to purchase overpriced GTC's to sell as PLEX wouldn't it? It'd be like having your own cadre of Tech moons, without the need to defend them or do the POS logistical bullcrap. Heck, I could have that Aeon I've always wanted by next week. CCP in their silence and inactivity is practically ENDORSING this. I responded to this thread a few times. I stated that we have a team working on the issue and we'd have information for you in the coming weeks. I stated that we in no way endorse this activity and never will. I am pretty clear on these things and that is our one and only policy. I understand that there's a lot of concern in the community about this particular issue. I'm rather concerned myself. Let's not pretend however that simply because I've said something's going to take a bit of time to do well or that because my posts were in the early stages of a large thread, that we're ignoring the issue. We've said precisely the opposite and we have nothing to gain from lying to you. It's a complex issue which requires a careful solution, whether it appears that way outwardly or not. I'd look to Fanfest as a good time to obtain more information on this particular subject as a not-so-subtle hint on when you can expect to hear more. Why does it take a threadnaught or articles from outside media like Evenews 24 or RPS before you guys will even respond to anything?
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:35:00 - [1528] Originally by: Sito Jaxa With all this anti-botting talk I must say I'm worried that CCP will make a knee-jerk reaction that will ultimately give rise to tremendous RMT pressures in the game. From a player perspective te RMT issue is not as important as te non RMT bot issue. The non RMT botters are the ones botting to gain a huge advantage over other players in terms of funding alliances, spamming capitals and beating those who dont bot. Sure alliances can buy isk for real life cash from RMTs however they can do that legally anyway and it costs real life cash. The real problem is people farming for themselves at no cost, to gain decisive advantages over other eve players. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.03.04 03:56:00 - [1529] Edited by: Richard Aiel on 04/03/2011 04:04:29 Originally by: mkmin Originally by: CCP Sreegs a lot of stuff that makes him my new favorite dev From you telling people to stop being asshats, or **tards in appropriate childhood epithets, to the very clear "yes we consider this a problem, yes it is a problem, yes there is a team on it and yes there are individuals working on it full time" I have to say you're my favorite dev right now. Im really not trying to be the above epithet, but months this thread has been around, 50+ pages deep, mostly agreeing withe the issue, lots seeming to quit over it, and a dev comes in, gives us a few honeyed words, points to Fanfest as the solution to all our worries and everyone is just falling lock step in behind him? A few words and youre all ok with that? Wow.. its easy to please you all lol Originally by:** DonHel Is there any way to report bots and actually have something done, or do we have to watch them do it everyday and just live with it. And just occasionally pop their hulks/covetors/retrievers and watch thier pods warp back n forth? I have been watching someones bots for like 10 days now, and am planning to gank them to hell everyday for a bit. But it's in a 0.8 so i can only do it so much before i become an eveil pirate dude bieng shot at by gate guns n such lol Better question: can we grief the hell out of bots and not expect to get in trouble for griefing single players (as apparently griefing one person IS actionable) ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
mkmin	Posted - 2011.03.04 04:11:00 - [1530] Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: mkmin Originally by: CCP Sreegs a lot of stuff that makes him my new favorite dev From you telling people to stop being asshats, or **tards in appropriate childhood epithets, to the very clear "yes we consider this a problem, yes it is a problem, yes there is a team on it and yes there are individuals working on it full time" I have to say you're my favorite dev right now. Im really not trying to be the above epithet, but months this thread has been around, 50+ pages deep, mostly agreeing withe the issue, lots seeming to quit over it, and a dev comes in, gives us a few honeyed words, points to Fanfest as the solution to all our worries and everyone is just falling lock step in behind him? A few words and youre all ok with that? Wow.. its easy to please you all lol Nah, mostly I like that he called everybody asshat tards in childhood epithets. But really he's been giving the information he can for now. CCP in general has dropped the ball in how they've utterly failed to deal with botting, but Sreegs specifically has just started with the company and is trying to clean up the that's been allowed to pile up. This thread has been around for longer than he's worked for the company. There are 2 options... all the conspiracy paranoia about CCP loving and promoting botting is accurate and Sreegs here is a dev alt meant to distract us for a couple more weeks (a tactic which I'm 99% sure CCP makes use of.) Or, Sreegs here really is as pro as his dev blogs make him sound and he's gonna knock the ** outta botters and as soon as he can tell us how (his deadline being fanfest), he will. We won't really know which is true until suddenly all the 0.0 alliances collapse because they can't cheat any more or battleclinic publishes their own botting software. Whatever the case may be, there's not a lot we can do about it. Either CCP cares or they don't. I think the past 50+ pages might have made the point.

Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.03.04 04:12:00 - [1531] Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 04/03/2011 04:12:34 Originally by: Richard Aiel A few words and youre all ok with that? Wow.. its easy to please you all lol I hear what your saying, and I agree. We've heard words before. Things like "RMT is bad, buy Plex. Mkay?' and 'File a petition & we'll get right on it'. This time the words are saying 'Wait till FF, then you'll see what we're gonna do'. I've hung on this long, I can wait till then.
Brannoncyll	Posted - 2011.03.04 04:26:00 - [1532] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Sito Jaxa With all this anti-botting talk I must say I'm worried that CCP will make a knee-jerk reaction that will ultimately give rise to tremendous RMT pressures in the game. From a player perspective te RMT issue is not as important as te non RMT bot issue. The non RMT botters are the ones botting to gain a huge advantage over other players in terms of funding alliances, spamming capitals and beating those who dont bot. Sure alliances can buy isk for real life cash from RMTs however they can do that legally anyway and it costs real life cash. The real problem is people farming for themselves at no cost, to gain decisive advantages over other eve players. Agreed. While RMT has a negative affect on the game, to the average player it is those that bot to gain an advantage over others that cause the most irritation. It cheapens the experience of those of us who work for our isk, that others have a free ride and can always field superior fleets.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.04 04:39:00 - [1533] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 04/03/2011 04:40:52 Originally by: CCP Sreegs I wasn't referring to you raging duder I was referring to the Unholy Rage project where we banned a few thousand botting accounts. I can also tell you that the playerbase is not and never has been the sole or even the primary source of bot hunting. How long were those bans? Cause I keep hearing 3 days Originally by: Natalia Kovac Why does it take a threadnaught or articles from outside media like Evenews 24 or RPS before you guys will even respond to anything? Because outside sources might affect new players coming into the game. IE making less of them. ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Sigma Special Tactics Group Fleet Coordination Coalition	Posted - 2011.03.04 04:39:00 - [1534] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Infinity Ziona Would it be possible to use a blizzard style authenticator device to not only secure accounts but also to secure the client - prevent it from being hacked? Firstly, I'm glad this is helpful to you guys even though I'm not able to provide a mountain of information at this time. So <3 for the thanks. As regards authenticators, I've mentioned it in a Dev Blog and Authentication is one of the things we've been looking at. Auth will be an additional topic of conversation during the fanfest presentation. I have experience in the DRM and copyright protection world and the only kind of program that cannot be hacked is one that is dongle-protected (though some of the non-dongle solutions like CodeMeterAct are pretty tough) with runtime checks against debuggers, viruses, IDE, etc, that lock down the dongle permanently when hack attempts and firmware rewrites are detected. The entire client can be encrypted and if the classes handling graphics loops are blacklisted from the encryption process, performance will not suffer. Dongles also have authentication routines for key pair and digital signing that could also eliminate hacking of accounts and password stealing as well as a host of RSA and AES stream and cipher chaining encryption routines. It's like Punkbuster on steroids except not as "violating" to the PC. Not only could the software and user be protected from hacking, but any other runtime checks against bot-like code is also safe from being "hacked out" of an encrypted program. The only prohibition is the cost. Modern dongles are not bank-breaking expensive, but are not as cheap as calculators either, and have more crypto power in them than a computer made in the 90s.
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.03.04 05:47:00 - [1535] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer I have experience in the DRM and copyright protection world and the only kind of program that cannot be hacked is one that is dongle-protected They're so cute when they're idealistic. What happened to that master key for bluray again?
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Sigma Special Tactics Group Fleet Coordination Coalition	Posted - 2011.03.04 06:42:00 - [1536] Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer I have experience in the DRM and copyright protection world and the only kind of program that cannot be hacked is one that is dongle-protected They're so cute when they're idealistic. What happened to that master key for bluray again? Blueray was a joke. I get messages every time something out there gets hacked. We find out how and why and then have a laugh. I work for the people whose stuff don't get hacked - software costing anywhere from $3500 to $50K for a license. What's funny is that those who hack and jailbreak things shrug it off, showing how dumb the manufacturers are and how dumb they thought the consumers are. A properly applied dongle for a fully encrypted program with runtime checks, authentication calls, and a statically linked (before encryption) library is an extremely tough nut to crack. Nothing is impossible to crack but if it takes more cost to crack it than the software is worth they don't bother.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.04 07:08:00 - [1537] In that price class you only got professional software used by companies, they usually just buy it due to high fines when caught and that a few thousand dollar are peanuts compared to wages of those who use it. However that said, the software that is in that price range and popular is still regulary cracked, if it was so easy to prevent with a dongle i am sure way more companies would use it.
Felstor Olgesh Minmatar The Synenose Accord	Posted - 2011.03.04 07:19:00 - [1538] CCP Sreegs, thank you for, at the very least, opening up some lines of communication regarding this issue. Is there some sort of standardized format that we could use to petition suspicious activity. What sort of information are the CSR folks looking for? Something that would make their life easier.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2011.03.04 07:37:00 - [1539] CCP Sreeg; Is it true that you were hired in order to add security features that help ban bots that run all day long, so that they instead have to spend more PLEXes to run a lot of accounts for shorter periods of time each day? I mean, it makes perfect sense in order to increase CCP profits.
Doctor Ungabungas Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.03.04 08:05:00 - [1540] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Nothing is impossible to crack but if it takes more cost to crack it than the software is worth they don't bother. Now you're talking. (But just how much money do you think the bluray master key was meant to be 'safeguarding'. I'll give you a hint: it wasn't 30 or 50 thousand dollars.)

Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.04 08:54:00 - [1541] Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer A properly applied dongle for a fully encrypted program with runtime checks, authentication calls, and a statically linked (before encryption) library is an extremely tough nut to crack. Nothing is impossible to crack but if it takes more cost to crack it than the software is worth they don't bother. We use dongles at work for the stuff we sell (SafeNet USB dongles). I had to write the UI and access software for them with one particular product. They're quite expensive for what they are though - around ú30 each. They have a "cheat counter", plus in order to program the dongle you need 4 different keys (they send them personalised per customer). They aren't uncrackable (nothing is), but they make the effort of doing so impossible for the casual hacker and possible for only an expert. Complete overkill and too expensive for a game of course.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.04 09:58:00 - [1542] Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 04/03/2011 09:59:17 Originally by: Natalia Kovac Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Jack Gilligan Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 01/03/2011 15:48:05 Originally by: Ephemeron First try get an official statement from CCP whether they value their profit margin more or less than they value the hardcore gaming ideals. CCP is either with us, or they are with the enemy. They need make clear what side they are on. Money or values. Their complete lack of response (other than to send sniper mods in here to delete or edit comments that embarrass CCP) is pretty damming isn't it? I'm beginning to think that we should all just start botting, not for sale or anything but just for ourselves. Why not? CCP doesn't punish it or take it seriously. And it would save us the need to purchase overpriced GTC's to sell as PLEX wouldn't it? It'd be like having your own cadre of Tech moons, without the need to defend them or do the POS logistical bullcrap. Heck, I could have that Aeon I've always wanted by next week. CCP in their silence and inactivity is practically ENDORSING this. I responded to this thread a few times. I stated that we have a team working on the issue and we'd have information for you in the coming weeks. I stated that we in no way endorse this activity and never will. I am pretty clear on these things and that is our one and only policy. I understand that there's a lot of concern in the community about this particular issue. I'm rather concerned myself. Let's not pretend however that simply because I've said something's going to take a bit of time to do well or that because my posts were in the early stages of a large thread, that we're ignoring the issue. We've said precisely the opposite and we have nothing to gain from lying to you. It's a complex issue which requires a careful solution, whether it appears that way outwardly or not. I'd look to Fanfest as a good time to obtain more information on this particular subject as a not-so-subtle hint on when you can expect to hear more. Why does it take a threadnaught or articles from outside media like Evenews 24 or RPS before you guys will even respond to anything? A) Every thread with people posting in it isn't a "threadnaught" B) As I've said, and will be made crystal clear at FF when I can show timelines, this problem was being addressed long before this thread ever existed. C) This problem was also being addressed long before anyone's blog wrote about it. D) I did respond with the best response I could a while back and that really didn't change anything. I don't think it does any of us any good to continue wasting our time shouting into the wind. If people do not want to listen I can't force them to. Now that I have some solid dates it made sense to post again.

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.04 10:36:00 - [1543] Originally by: Richard Aiel Im really not trying to be the above epithet, but months this thread has been around, 50+ pages deep, mostly agreeing withe the issue, lots seeming to quit over it, and a dev comes in, gives us a few honeyed words, points to Fanfest as the solution to all our worries and everyone is just falling lock step in behind him? A few words and youre all ok with that? Wow.. its easy to please you all lol My account is still suspended - runs out in a couple of months - so I'll wait and see what is said/done at FF. If its weasel words then I know where I stand and I'll act accordingly. He's given us a date, lets hear the man out and THEN decide whether its more CCP fluff or a genuine change in the company's attitude.
Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous	Posted - 2011.03.04 10:54:00 - [1544] Originally by: CCP Sreegs B) As I've said, and will be made crystal clear at FF when I can show timelines, this problem was being addressed long before this thread ever existed. C) This problem was also being addressed long before anyone's blog wrote about it... All I can say is that I hope you're about to deliver a lot more than you have been doing. If you say you've been "addressing" the bot problem "long before" now, then I'll take your word for it but the plain fact is, on a practical basis, those addresses have had very little effect. When swarms of utterly blatant bots, which are reported, are tolerated for months (Hi to the guys in Igunn!), how much faith are we supposed to have in those addresses? Since we've waited for so long for some effective action on this problem, then waiting a few more weeks till fanfest is no biggie. If that's the timeline, so be it. But we expect to see real results this time. And for those results to be maintained, not just a one-off event like Unholy Rage Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Sitara Minmatar Solar Flare Trade and Production	Posted - 2011.03.04 11:20:00 - [1545] Meh - I used to get worked up about RMT but just lost the will ... Buying in game cash for RL money == RMT whatever the method used. This is now even in the game mechnics (aka Plexs and GTC sales) So removing these might be a good start !
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.04 11:26:00 - [1546] Originally by: Malcanis When swarms of utterly blatant bots, which are reported, are tolerated for months (Hi to the guys in Igunn!) If you petitioned them as well then that makes at least 13 people who have petitioned the same courier bots. Says it all really doesn't it - bots are still there and everyone in the area is aware of them.
Shandir Minmatar EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.03.04 11:55:00 - [1547] Guys - no matter how many times you say "Now now now now NOW!" they aren't going to fix the problem overnight. Sreegs has already said they've got a plan, and Unholy Rage was a similar event - they kicked the botters/RMT guys wholesale out of the game. Good ideas take time to implement, wait till FF and see what they've got planned. Also, note the CSM isn't raging about this issue - that's a hint that what they've got planned (that the CSM probably know about) might work. But I agree that there should be a no tolerance attitude towards botting and RMT - please also come down on those to whom the ISK keeps going to, too. Take the ISK back out of the system. (Please implement an 'undo' feature for a player's purchases, ISK transfers, etc)
Scyth Darkhope Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.03.04 12:00:00 - [1548] Edited by: Scyth Darkhope on 04/03/2011 12:00:27 Clearly, the less we know about this subject, the better for the non cheater players. While I think the main problem with EVE nowadays is botting, if CCP announced what are they going to do, it would give much more time for the botters to adapt. Now, I'm not generally a fan of obfuscation techniques, but in this case since only CCP has any power in this game, I do feel it is justified.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.04 12:50:00 - [1549] Originally by: Corran Do'Urden Unless your university is different, most universities have static IP's. They don't change. Stuff from Comcast, yeah, that changes on whenever you refresh your connection. Mac address can be changed as well, etc, etc. Far as I know I don't share my IP with anyone else. Also, by initiated, Bob uses the guess past to get a 14 day character. Bob sends his new alt a plex to convert into a legit account and proceeds to bot. Hence Bob initiated the botting and should be banned. Far as I'd wager, a fair amount of statistics would be useful for tracking trends of established botters and then used in comparison to find more. My 'providing a situation' as you so called above. static or not, the point was that multiple people are using the same IP. as individuals/residential homes are concerned, each time you simply disconnect from your ISP for more than about a minute you will LIKELY be given a different than the one you had. and someone else will have the one you had. barring disconnecting, your ISP may or may not give you a new IP for their own reasons. even if you have 20 chars mining for 16 hours straight, it could very well be a LAN party or dorm group. And, via TOR or proxies, one player with 20 accounts mining for 16 hours would look like 20 different players mining. so how could YOU figure out which is which? the point is that IP's are not good tools for tracking players. if the IPs match, and the names are all something stupid like "bot1, bot2, bot3" then you may be on to something. as for the buddy system, I've known of plenty of real players to use it in getting an alt - more frequently to help another player get an alt. not sure what the mechanics are there tbh... but, the problem still remains that if the botters think that using the buddy program will flag them, they simply wont use it. other things to consider are that a lot of people do passive activities, well... passively. so being unresponsive to attacks/convo's isn't really proof. people grind, so doing the same thing for multiple hours isn't really proof either. the two of those go hand in hand even, as actively grinding would be harder to accomplish for many hours on end than passive play. consistency in warp and in-station times is likely randomized by the bot makers as not to be obvious, so the logs won't show much... spyware can be circumvented. i.e. despite massive efforts on the part of blizzard, they still have bots. the only thing which would be proof is playing 10+ hours a day EVERYDAY. and even then, short of 23/7 play, this could very well be a recently unemployed person, or a no-life teen that is on vacation/suspended/playing hooky from school... etc. so unless the trend lasts for many months, you can't fully say that it's a bot. and I suppose even then it could be a wealthy person who really just loves eve. and while $$+nothing but eve isn't likely, it is possible. so - only 23/7 game. but what if the bots only run ~10 hours a day, and sometimes dont play at all? so what are we left with at this point? only botters who do 23/7 game play, and those dumb enough to link 20 accounts with the same credit card and play them all for several hours at a time, and the IP being consistent between them every time the IP changes even... which is likely a small subset of bots that have already been banned; and now bot smart. all i'm saying is that for all practical purposes a BOT behaves and looks EXACTLY like a real player. the botters strive for this fact i'm sure. it is a problem with virtually no solution. some amount of a massive overhual of the game itself may be the key, but i have no clue what that would entail. and i don't think anyone else in this thread has one either.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.04 13:06:00 - [1550] Originally by: Sitara Meh - I used to get worked up about RMT but just lost the will ... Buying in game cash for RL money == RMT whatever the method used. This is now even in the game mechnics (aka Plexs and GTC sales) So removing these might be a good start ! that is a conundrum - because the purpose of plex is to create an effective exchange rate of ISK/$. You see, as the ISK value of PLEX goes up, the value of the isk in real money goes down; because who is going to pay $20 for 500M, and take a risk, when they could buy a PLEX for $15 and get 450M. so what CCP did was cut the profitability of the RMT guys in half. plus, people who may have otherwise gone to the RMT guys now have a method of legally obtaining isk with real $; further decreasing the rewards of botting/RMT. but i do see you're point. there is something ultimately unfair about the fact that people with real cash will go vastly further than those without. but we would still have the problem that those same people could have still gone to the RMT guys - thus plex isn't really the problem. it is that plex needs to exist in the first place. personally i think PLEX was genius. and i'm not even one who can afford them (in RL or in game...)

Gajoleus Gallente Solar Imperium	Posted - 2011.03.04 13:32:00 - [1551] So I provided list of about 5k players that bought stuff from RMTs, first CCP told me that they will award me, now they told me that my actions are forbidden by Terms Of Service section 7, and there will not be bans and that they will not do anything wit that list. So basically I did whole work for them and they did this. Sry m8 I am in rage about this. You will get whole chat log with GMs later when you come online with some more things to talk about
Ban Doga	Posted - 2011.03.04 13:36:00 - [1552] Originally by: CCP Sreegs D) I did respond with the best response I could a while back and that really didn't change anything. I don't think it does any of us any good to continue wasting our time shouting into the wind. If people do not want to listen I can't force them to. I think the problem is not with listening. Maybe you should try to see this not as people ignoring what was said but rather as people being disappointed at the (perceived) ineffectiveness of whatever measures are in effect. That's why repeating the same message does not change anything... Originally by: CCP Sreegs Now that I have some solid dates it made sense to post again. Are those "solid dates" contained somewhere in your reply? I don't think I saw any.
Sito Jaxa	Posted - 2011.03.04 13:37:00 - [1553] Originally by: Brannoncyll Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Sito Jaxa With all this anti-botting talk I must say I'm worried that CCP will make a knee-jerk reaction that will ultimately give rise to tremendous RMT pressures in the game. From a player perspective te RMT issue is not as important as te non RMT bot issue. The non RMT botters are the ones botting to gain a huge advantage over other players in terms of funding alliances, spamming capitals and beating those who dont bot. Sure alliances can buy isk for real life cash from RMTs however they can do that legally anyway and it costs real life cash. The real problem is people farming for themselves at no cost, to gain decisive advantages over other eve players. Agreed. While RMT has a negative affect on the game, to the average player it is those that bot to gain an advantage over others that cause the most irritation. It cheapens the experience of those of us who work for our isk, that others have a free ride and can always field superior fleets. That is the biggest nail problem right now. It could just as easily be an RMT epidemic again where the wealthy players buy cheap isk to gain an advantage over others. When the biggest barrier to playing endgame content is whether you grind for 1000+ hours to earn enough for a MS, and having a MS is the whole of endgame content, there will be unfair ways for people to get there. RMT and botting are a teeter-totter effect. If you banned all bots RMT would take off. PLEX would drop to like 150-200m or less so it would not be feasible to pay for expensive ships with them, driving demand to RMT. Many of the people who bot will buy an unfair advantage (you think bots are free?) no matter which way you slice it. It's a byproduct of the current system in EVE and will not go away unless that system is changed. With that said though I don't believe CCP has it in them to make fundamental game changes at this point in their eve timeline. 'Fixing' their problem would require a significant investment into understanding the psychology of gamers (how addiction to work for reward functions), and then significant changes to game mechanics. Then you run into the problem where the current player-base are attracted because the balance we have suits them, and CCP would **** them off badly in hopes of attracting a new non-botting-inclined player-base, etc. If you follow the deductions far enough you just figure out that from a bottom line perspective EVE has peaked and CCP needs to (and is) put the bulk of its energy into new MMOs. With that assumption reached you see that mass banning of thousands of accounts will cost CCP revenue that it will only struggle to replace. Here is the same problem from another perspective- EVE attracts players who are willing to risk what they have to win. Botting and RMT are natural extensions to this mentality. People who are risk-averse will not stick with EVE as long.
Soma Khan Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.04 13:40:00 - [1554] Originally by: CCP Sreegs A) Every thread with people posting in it isn't a "threadnaught" B) As I've said, and will be made crystal clear at FF when I can show timelines, this problem was being addressed long before this thread ever existed. C) This problem was also being addressed long before anyone's blog wrote about it. D) I did respond with the best response I could a while back and that really didn't change anything. I don't think it does any of us any good to continue wasting our time shouting into the wind. If people do not want to listen I can't force them to. Now that I have some solid dates it made sense to post again. a fanfest announcement about banning thousands of nc botters will go a long way to making the eve community a happier place __
Grey Stormshadow	Posted - 2011.03.04 13:40:00 - [1555] Originally by: Ban Doga Originally by: CCP Sreegs Now that I have some solid dates it made sense to post again. Are those "solid dates" contained somewhere in your reply? I don't think I saw any. It helps to read little more from thread than just last page... friendly hint
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.04 13:57:00 - [1556] Originally by: Gajoleus So I provided list of about 5k players that bought stuff from RMTs, first CCP told me that they will award me, now they told me that my actions are forbidden by Terms Of Service section 7, and there will not be bans and that they will not do anything wit that list. So basically I did whole work for them and they did this. Sry m8 I am in rage about this. You will get whole chat log with GMs later when you come online with some more things to talk about and how exactly did you know they "bought stuff from RMTs" ? do you have proof? i think what you may have ran into is that many people report other players merely out of revenge, etc. just in the hopes that they had dome something wrong and get banned for it. so unless you have more than just names, i would have guessed you just decided "i dont like alliance X, think i'll turn them all in for RMT" and thought it would work.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.04 14:01:00 - [1557] Originally by: Sito Jaxa Agreed. While RMT has a negative affect on the game, to the average player it is those that bot to gain an advantage over others that cause the most irritation. It cheapens the experience of those of us who work for our isk, that others have a free ride and can always field superior fleets. That is the biggest nail problem right now. It could just as easily be an RMT epidemic again where the wealthy players buy cheap isk to gain an advantage over others. When the biggest barrier to playing endgame content is whether you grind for 1000+ hours to earn enough for a MS, and having a MS is the whole of endgame content, there will be unfair ways for people to get there. RMT and botting are a teeter-totter effect. If you banned all bots RMT would take off. PLEX would drop to like 150-200m or less so it would not be feasible to pay for expensive ships with them, driving demand to RMT. Many of the people who bot will buy an unfair advantage (you think bots are free?) no matter which way you slice it. It's a byproduct of the current system in EVE and will not go away unless that system is changed. With that said though I don't believe CCP has it in them to make fundamental game changes at this point in their eve timeline. 'Fixing' their problem would require a significant investment into understanding the psychology of gamers (how addiction to work for reward functions), and then significant changes to game mechanics. Then you run into the problem where the current player-base are attracted because the balance we have suits them, and CCP would **** them off badly in hopes of attracting a new non-botting-inclined player-base, etc. If you follow the deductions far enough you just figure out that from a bottom line perspective EVE has peaked and CCP needs to (and is) put the bulk of its energy into new MMOs. With that assumption reached you see that mass banning of thousands of accounts will cost CCP revenue that it will only struggle to replace. Here is the same problem from another perspective- EVE attracts players who are willing to risk what they have to win. Botting and RMT are natural extensions to this mentality. People who are risk-averse will not stick with EVE as long. exactly.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.03.04 14:17:00 - [1558] Originally by: CCP employee D) I did respond with the best response I could a while back and that really didn't change anything So, today I witnessed to the kill of the famous nine mackinaws botter. Without CCP doing anything tangible the guy destroyed a market by himself. Without CCP doing anything tangible the guy grew to fourteen mining bots plus Orcas!! FOURTEEN MINING BOTS IN ONE HI SEC SYSTEM AND THIS IS JUST ONE "PLAYER" OF THOUSANDS THAT DO WTF THEY WANT EVERY DAY, ALL DAYS SPITTING OVER THE EULA. End result: organized disco suicide gank. All but one of the exhumers killed. The pods happily stayed there, the survived one kept happily go to and from like nothing happend. What the hell do we have to do MORE to make CCP do something? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.03.04 15:20:00 - [1559] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha What the hell do we have to do MORE to make CCP do something? I do not recommend or condone it, but some player actions have been known to trigger GM responses or at least get their attention, for example ejecting a freighter full of shuttles (dunno if this still has the same effect nowdays). This gave me an idea: if we had player-anchored obstacles in space, at least mining bots would have a harder time making ISK ... Same if we could anchor warp bubbles and they exhibited the sucking effect in high sec, but without the warp disruption effect, that might be fun. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming

CCP Navigator C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.04 15:20:00 - [1560] Thread cleaned. Please be aware that posting GM correspondence, paraphrasing communications from CCP staff or promotion of illegal activity is not permitted on the forums at any time. We appreciate that players are passionate about this issue but we urge you to report any illegal activity or problems with RMT through the petition system. Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online


Ban Doga	Posted - 2011.03.04 15:55:00 - [1561] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Originally by: Ban Doga Originally by: CCP Sreegs Now that I have some solid dates it made sense to post again. Are those "solid dates" contained somewhere in your reply? I don't think I saw any. It helps to read little more from thread than just last page... friendly hint Thank you for your friendly hint. I can assure you I read every reply from a CCP official in this post (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1426740/author/CCP). However I still didn't find anything that matches my definition of "solid dates" (maybe this was supposed to be the announcement for FF), which probably indicates that I expect something else behind that phrase. Sorry, but your friendly hint didn't help at all.
G 0 D	Posted - 2011.03.04 17:02:00 - [1562] Edited by: G 0 D on 04/03/2011 17:03:12 I do not understand why so many people hate bottters, when the game has PLEX and everyone can RMT as much as they want legitamelty through CCP's hands? Everyone with RL money can have unlimated isk, so I dont exactly understand why so many are complaining about the unfair advantage they have. Eve isn't really a competitive mmo at all, because it is both P2P and has a cash shop (PLEX) It's basically a pay to win game that you also have to pay for monthly.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.04 17:18:00 - [1563] Originally by: CCP Sreegs this problem was being addressed long before this thread ever existed. C) This problem was also being addressed long before anyone's blog wrote about it. If you read through this thread, youll note that all that addressing youve done previously added up to nothing more than to **** off everyone here, so your new measures had better be HUGE ...and done give us the "whoa dont aim too high buddy" crap cause till now, "working on it" as you say youve been doing = NOTHING. "The problem was addressed long before..." what does "was addressed" mean exactly? Cause, again, read the thread. Apparently "addressed" is insufficient. ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.03.04 17:35:00 - [1564] Originally by: G 0 D Edited by: G 0 D on 04/03/2011 17:03:12 I do not understand why so many people hate bottters, when the game has PLEX and everyone can RMT as much as they want legitamelty through CCP's hands? Everyone with RL money can have unlimated isk, so I dont exactly understand why so many are complaining about the unfair advantage they have. Eve isn't really a competitive mmo at all, because it is both P2P and has a cash shop (PLEX) It's basically a pay to win game that you also have to pay for monthly. If you are actually honest about your question the answer is in this thread and similar ones that are probably locked by now or just archived, some of the RMT/plex issues were also addressed in the microtranaction threads. Honestly it has been discussed from everyone's POV plex=rmt plex=rmt (with strings), plex!=rmt, and so on. Your summation is partially correct on numerous other levels that have nothing to do with Pay to play and the 'non competitive' aspect BUT going on your premise should players accept the 'unfairness' from bots AS well as all the other issues? I and I think most if not all the people who want CCP to work harder on fighitng botting would say no we shouldn't accept players cheating there are enough 'legitimate' ways to get ahead. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.03.04 17:39:00 - [1565] Originally by: G 0 D I do not understand why so many people hate bottters, when the game has PLEX and everyone can RMT as much as they want legitamelty through CCP's hands? This has to be a troll, right? If you really don't understand the issue, there's 52 pages of people going into the details of the problem right here; talking about how bots screw up the economy, feed RMT, drive corruption in the game, and skew the game toward becoming an arena game called Capitols Online. How Plex for isk and RMT works into the problem has been detailed many times as well.
G 0 D	Posted - 2011.03.04 17:46:00 - [1566] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Originally by: G 0 D I do not understand why so many people hate bottters, when the game has PLEX and everyone can RMT as much as they want legitamelty through CCP's hands? This has to be a troll, right? If you really don't understand the issue, there's 52 pages of people going into the details of the problem right here; talking about how bots screw up the economy, feed RMT, drive corruption in the game, and skew the game toward becoming an arena game called Capitols Online. How Plex for isk and RMT works into the problem has been detailed many times as well. I am very serious. I don't understand why someone botting is any different than someone buying isk from CCP. Both completely kill the competetive aspect of the game.
Dariah Stardweller Gallente NO U111 Enterprises	Posted - 2011.03.04 18:58:00 - [1567] Originally by: G 0 D Edited by: G 0 D on 04/03/2011 17:03:12 I do not understand why so many people hate bottters, when the game has PLEX and everyone can RMT as much as they want legitamelty through CCP's hands? Everyone with RL money can have unlimated isk, so I dont exactly understand why so many are complaining about the unfair advantage they have. I have no problems with RMT, I DO have severe problems with bots though. It's cheating and brings trouble to game balance.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.04 19:33:00 - [1568] Originally by: G 0 D I am very serious. I don't understand why someone botting is any different than someone buying isk from CCP. Both completely kill the competetive aspect of the game. my question: how is people having more money a more unfair advantage than people having more time to play?
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.04 19:37:00 - [1569] Originally by: G 0 D I am very serious. I don't understand why someone botting is any different than someone buying isk from CCP. To some extent its a question of magnitude. You cannot buy unlimited isk, the amount you can buy is limited by how much money you have. The amount of isk you can get via RMT or by buying and using a bot is larger, sometimes far larger, then the amount you get via PLEX. So the player who gets isk by cheating has an advantage over those who do not cheat. We do not want eve to become a "you must cheat to win" game. Another issue is the cheating itself. If a person is willing to cheat on something as trivial as a game, how can you trust them to obey the rules when it counts?
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.04 19:43:00 - [1570] Originally by: G 0 D Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Originally by: G 0 D I do not understand why so many people hate bottters, when the game has PLEX and everyone can RMT as much as they want legitamelty through CCP's hands? This has to be a troll, right? If you really don't understand the issue, there's 52 pages of people going into the details of the problem right here; talking about how bots screw up the economy, feed RMT, drive corruption in the game, and skew the game toward becoming an arena game called Capitols Online. How Plex for isk and RMT works into the problem has been detailed many times as well. I am very serious. I don't understand why someone botting is any different than someone buying isk from CCP. Both completely kill the competetive aspect of the game. lol

Xelena Shellar	Posted - 2011.03.04 20:07:00 - [1571] Originally by: Arnakoz Originally by: G 0 D I am very serious. I don't understand why someone botting is any different than someone buying isk from CCP. Both completely kill the competetive aspect of the game. my question: how is people having more money a more unfair advantage than people having more time to play? The real question here is 'Who ever told all these people that EVE was fair?" EVE is by design the most terribly unfair MMO out there, it is part of its charm :P
Sitara Minmatar Solar Flare Trade and Production	Posted - 2011.03.04 20:26:00 - [1572] Originally by: G 0 D I am very serious. I don't understand why someone botting is any different than someone buying isk from CCP. Both completely kill the competetive aspect of the game. Signed and the biggest reason none of my characters play the 'big 0.0 PvP game' anymore and I just resub for a month or two here and there these days
Sitara Minmatar Solar Flare Trade and Production	Posted - 2011.03.04 20:45:00 - [1573] Originally by: Arnakoz that is a conundrum - because the purpose of plex is to create an effective exchange rate of ISK/$. You see, as the ISK value of PLEX goes up, the value of the isk in real money goes down; because who is going to pay $20 for 500M, and take a risk, when they could buy a PLEX for $15 and get 450M. so what CCP did was cut the profitability of the RMT guys in half. plus, people who may have otherwise gone to the RMT guys now have a method of legally obtaining isk with real $; further decreasing the rewards of botting/RMT. but i do see you're point. there is something ultimately unfair about the fact that people with real cash will go vastly further than those without. but we would still have the problem that those same people could have still gone to the RMT guys - thus plex isn't really the problem. it is that plex needs to exist in the first place. personally i think PLEX was genius. and i'm not even one who can afford them (in RL or in game...) I hear what you're saying and I also understand (but disagree with) the way CCP attempt to justify plex and GTC sales over so called 'RMT' in terms of flows of RL cash and isk. However from what I've experienced the main impact of these has been to turn RMT (by my definition which is any purchase of isk for RL cash) from a secretive and relatively dangerous passtime to the 'norm'. I could easily afford to buy billions of isk but dont - the situation is for me analogous to the old moral 'lesson' about a medal - you can win one in a competition in which case it means something or you could pop down to the medal shop and buy one (in which case its meaningless). Now that's my view and others may disagree - (its the same reason I've never in a long gaming career used 'cheat codes' in single player games). Now in single player games its not an issue - the only person you're competing with is yourself - if someone is the type who likes to cheat at solitaire and convince themselves they're uber then fine, whatever floats their boat. However, in an MMO setting, particularly a PvP centric one any form of RMT 'un-levels' the playing field and I lose interest for the same reason I would choose not to play any 'rigged' game.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.04 21:27:00 - [1574] Originally by: Xelena Shellar The real question here is 'Who ever told all these people that EVE was fair?" EVE is by design the most terribly unfair MMO out there, it is part of its charm :P this is actually my point. to me all of this bot and RMT talk is mute and mere whining. b/c when you really think about it even if it were all fixed the game would still be exactly the same. the market may shift, but ends profits will be about the same and people will still find something useless to complain about being unfair.
mkmin	Posted - 2011.03.04 21:46:00 - [1575] Originally by: Arnakoz Originally by: Xelena Shellar The real question here is 'Who ever told all these people that EVE was fair?" EVE is by design the most terribly unfair MMO out there, it is part of its charm :P this is actually my point. to me all of this bot and RMT talk is mute and mere whining. b/c when you really think about it even if it were all fixed the game would still be exactly the same. the market may shift, but ends profits will be about the same and people will still find something useless to complain about being unfair. Not exactly. If supercaps were no longer essentially free for the mega alliances, there would be more opportunity for conflict without fear of a super-carrier fleet getting hotdropped on your solo rifter.
Sito Jaxa	Posted - 2011.03.04 22:15:00 - [1576] Originally by: mkmin Originally by: Arnakoz Originally by: Xelena Shellar The real question here is 'Who ever told all these people that EVE was fair?" EVE is by design the most terribly unfair MMO out there, it is part of its charm :P this is actually my point. to me all of this bot and RMT talk is mute and mere whining. b/c when you really think about it even if it were all fixed the game would still be exactly the same. the market may shift, but ends profits will be about the same and people will still find something useless to complain about being unfair. Not exactly. If supercaps were no longer essentially free for the mega alliances, there would be more opportunity for conflict without fear of a super-carrier fleet getting hotdropped on your solo rifter. As an alternative to expecting CCP to rebalance the game for your rifter you could just disengage and warp away from the supercap fleet. You can't fight every time you see an enemy in this game. You have to know your strengths and weaknesses. You have to be a little smarter then average or at least join a fleet with a smarter then average FC. Big alliances will always hold tech moons, make bank on their share of taxes, and have stupid amounts of ISK. Botting just extends the capfest one notch down the ladder.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.04 22:30:00 - [1577] Edited by: Arnakoz on 04/03/2011 22:31:52 Originally by: mkmin Not exactly. If supercaps were no longer essentially free for the mega alliances, there would be more opportunity for conflict without fear of a super-carrier fleet getting hotdropped on your solo rifter. i still contend that botting isn't the main stay of large alliances' income. i'm sure they do it. but i doubt that compared to their moon and t2 bpo/t3 production income it isn't much more than supplemental. add in renters, contracts, fees, (normal) ratting, playing hi v null markets... the more t2 bpos owned the harder it would be to match. I mean, from what i understand one bot earns about as much as a moon or two per month. these large alliances have access to thousands of moons. do you figure they are going to run thousands of bots? maybe upwards of a hundred - but i think even that would be extreme. further, the longer an alliance has been around, the more supercaps they will have amassed. so even minus bots and RMT it will get to that same point regardless. it isn't like these alliance simply wouldn't never be able to afford more than one or two. no, every time they have a pilot ready for the seat and the funds available they will make another. lastly, RMT will always exist. even if it becomes back-room exchanges between buddies. thus some bored millionaire will have the same unfair advantage in game as he does out of game. i hate to keep repeating myself here, but its all pointless. to me the only valid argument is one colloquial to steroid use - you have morals and shouldn't be at a disadvantage to those who don't. but considering that the very nature of this game attracts intelligent risk taking types, good luck getting rid of it.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.04 23:11:00 - [1578] Originally by: Xelena Shellar Originally by: Arnakoz Originally by: G 0 D I am very serious. I don't understand why someone botting is any different than someone buying isk from CCP. Both completely kill the competetive aspect of the game. my question: how is people having more money a more unfair advantage than people having more time to play? The real question here is 'Who ever told all these people that EVE was fair?" EVE is by design the most terribly unfair MMO out there, it is part of its charm :P This is such a stupid argument. EvE is fair. It always has been fair. Fair means everyone has the same chance. What you are talking about is its harshness. Theres nothing in EvE that you cannot avoid using ingame mechanics except RMT and botting. Botting is unfair because its outside the rules of the game, which you agree to abide by when you sign up. Its something that you cannot avoid or counter unless you yourself break the rules of the game and bot. To say that botting is okay because EvE is a harsh game is garbage. Botting takes the harshness of EvE and throws it in the toilet. With the ISK stream from botting behind you you are simply playing a respawn reship game without harshness or penalty. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Richard Aiel Caldari GloboTech Industries	Posted - 2011.03.05 00:43:00 - [1579] Originally by: Arnakoz Originally by: G 0 D I am very serious. I don't understand why someone botting is any different than someone buying isk from CCP. Both completely kill the competetive aspect of the game. my question: how is people having more money a more unfair advantage than people having more time to play? lol how many times has this question gone round and round in this thread? ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.03.05 01:40:00 - [1580] I find it funny that Riverini is making all this "noise" about botting ans such and is planning on writing and publishing a botting guide on the EVE 24 site. He apparently doesnt care about the issue as much as he does about making it worse.

Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.05 07:01:00 - [1581] Originally by: Infinity Ziona This is such a stupid thread Fixt as apparently we were all duped for 50 pages Nice advertising scheme Riverini ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
PC l0adletter	Posted - 2011.03.05 07:16:00 - [1582] Originally by: CCP Sreegs A) Every thread with people posting in it isn't a "threadnaught" B) As I've said, and will be made crystal clear at FF when I can show timelines, this problem was being addressed long before this thread ever existed. C) This problem was also being addressed long before anyone's blog wrote about it. D) I did respond with the best response I could a while back and that really didn't change anything. I don't think it does any of us any good to continue wasting our time shouting into the wind. If people do not want to listen I can't force them to. Now that I have some solid dates it made sense to post again. A) Was that the claim? That this is a threadnaught because people are posting in it? I can't help but notice we're on 53 pages here. Also, the topic is: things CCP are screwing up, as opposed to, say, how excited we are about space barbie. Is that, maybe, a threadnaught? Might even be in siege mode. B-D) 82 bots were reported, 20 of them were banned for one day, and only after the article was published a week later were any of them banned for any longer. Are you seriously asking us to believe that was your plan all along, and the unfavorable news coverage had nothing to do with it? Seems a bit much, don't you think? I'm glad that you, personally, care. I hope when you tell your bosses, hey, turns out 3,000 accounts are logged in 23/7 and farming missions/ore/rats/whatever around the clock, that they say, okay, time to lose 3,000 subscribers and PCUs. I sure as hell won't be at fanfest, but I'll be very interested in whatever presentation/recording/whatever you wind up making. If it's followed thru on, it might even make me a fan again.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.05 08:23:00 - [1583] Originally by: Sito Jaxa As an alternative to expecting CCP to rebalance the game for your rifter you could just disengage and warp away from the supercap fleet. Ah yes, the old "just quit the game if you don't want to adapt to mandated botting"-argument. Didn't get any better the last 50 pages though. You might want to think of a better one.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.05 09:07:00 - [1584] Originally by: Batolemaeus Ah yes, the old "just quit the game if you don't want to adapt to mandated botting"-argument. lol "if you dont like it, quit" Such good marketting I think we tipped the balance of him talking to us again...
Ver Selam	Posted - 2011.03.05 09:37:00 - [1585] Why is this ****ing thread still kicking.
Sito Jaxa	Posted - 2011.03.05 13:50:00 - [1586] Originally by: Batolemaeus Edited by: Batolemaeus on 05/03/2011 08:31:05 Originally by: Sito Jaxa As an alternative to expecting CCP to rebalance the game for your rifter you could just disengage and warp away from the supercap fleet. Ah yes, the old "just quit the game if you don't want to adapt to mandated botting"-argument. Didn't get any better the last 50 pages though. You might want to think of a better one. Originally by: Arnakoz i still contend that botting isn't the main stay of large alliances' income. http://rawr.eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=86385&view=losses For Legion of xXDEATHXx it is. All kills achieved through means that no human ever got caught with. In an embarassing display of GM collusion/incompetence, they're still online. Another corp only had some of the bots banned after vuk himself had petitioned. Time for IA to get involved tbh. It is so easy to counter a bot supported alliance. You just have to know how to hit them where it hurts. Crying and waiting for ccp has got to be the least effective method at your disposal. I'm not saying 'quit the game if you don't like it,' I'm advocating adapting your tactics to the situation. Maybe you need better strategists.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.05 16:23:00 - [1587] Originally by: Batolemaeus http://rawr.eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=86385&view=losses For Legion of xXDEATHXx it is. All kills achieved through means that no human ever got caught with. In an embarassing display of GM collusion/incompetence, they're still online. Another corp only had some of the bots banned after vuk himself had petitioned. Time for IA to get involved tbh. eh, okay. i'll play the devil's advocate: so they have lost a lot badgers. what exactly does that indicate? each kill i looked at had a different fit, even for the same characters. which if a bot was auto-fitting, it wouldn't randomly try different fits. it only indicates to me that they want to move items despite war, but not lose $$ freighters in the process. that is exactly what i did MANUALLY when i was in atlas space being hounded by PL. we produced badgers and had a ton of them, and had a ton of stuff to move around; at first we would manually pilot stuff, but soon enough we didn't care about the limited risk compared to our sanity, and started just auto-piloting the trips. it may sound stupid, but we each only lost a load once out of every 10-20 trips. i personally never lost a single one. but i'm sure our kill boards looked about the same as these guys'. as for the ravens, all this tells me is that they mass produce ravens and figure (income - loss) is greater than no income. so they rat regardless. or at the least its a group of noobs that think they are entitled and protected in their space. lastly, some may bot, but based on the limited number of names that have more than a couple stupid losses i wouldn't say its many. http://rawr.eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=86385&view=pilot_losses which goes back to my point - even 10 to 16 bots doesn't stack up against the income from the moons and probable T2 bpos they own . its at best supplemental and does not amount free supercaps.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.05 16:26:00 - [1588] Originally by: Arnakoz so they have lost a lot badgers. what exactly does that indicate? That their bots don't account for slingbubbles at the pos they safe up on if a hostile/neutral enters local, and that they definitely aren't operated by humans as they would never warp into something repeatedly anchored UNDER THEIR OWN EYES. So yes, they're all bots.
James Tiberius Kirk	Posted - 2011.03.05 17:32:00 - [1589] Edited by: James Tiberius Kirk on 05/03/2011 17:36:41 Originally by: EN24News Hai guyz! I found 60 bots, reported them all of them, here's indisputable proof Originally by: CCP Sreegs *we're doing everything we can* Originally by: EN24News All of them are active 23/7 again Does not compute.
Devil's Call Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.05 17:52:00 - [1590] STOP THE BOT! CANT STOP THE BOT! "You know whos alt wink wink nudge nudge"

Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.03.05 17:56:00 - [1591] Originally by: Devil's Call STOP THE BOT! CANT STOP THE BOT! I can almost be bothered to click that, and see what **** presents itself. Not quite, though.
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2011.03.05 17:58:00 - [1592] Originally by: Devil's Call STOP THE BOT! CANT STOP THE BOT! I'll see your "stop the Rock" song and raise you this
Raid'En	Posted - 2011.03.05 20:13:00 - [1593] seeing all these devs post about giving a proper answer at the fanfest, i hope it won't be some tiny thing. cause if it's the case things will go worse. ---------------- Wormhole Trading
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2011.03.05 20:43:00 - [1594] Originally by: Arnakoz Originally by: Batolemaeus http://rawr.eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=86385&view=losses For Legion of xXDEATHXx it is. All kills achieved through means that no human ever got caught with. In an embarassing display of GM collusion/incompetence, they're still online. Another corp only had some of the bots banned after vuk himself had petitioned. Time for IA to get involved tbh. eh, okay. i'll play the devil's advocate: so they have lost a lot badgers. what exactly does that indicate? each kill i looked at had a different fit, even for the same characters. which if a bot was auto-fitting, it wouldn't randomly try different fits. it only indicates to me that they want to move items despite war, but not lose $$ freighters in the process. that is exactly what i did MANUALLY when i was in atlas space being hounded by PL. we produced badgers and had a ton of them, and had a ton of stuff to move around; at first we would manually pilot stuff, but soon enough we didn't care about the limited risk compared to our sanity, and started just auto-piloting the trips. it may sound stupid, but we each only lost a load once out of every 10-20 trips. i personally never lost a single one. but i'm sure our kill boards looked about the same as these guys'. as for the ravens, all this tells me is that they mass produce ravens and figure (income - loss) is greater than no income. so they rat regardless. or at the least its a group of noobs that think they are entitled and protected in their space. lastly, some may bot, but based on the limited number of names that have more than a couple stupid losses i wouldn't say its many. http://rawr.eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=86385&view=pilot_losses which goes back to my point - even 10 to 16 bots doesn't stack up against the income from the moons and probable T2 bpos they own . its at best supplemental and does not amount free supercaps. The badgers were run by a macro which will carry drone loots every 20-30 minutes back to station, and the fittings were obviously the same.
Janis Ezra	Posted - 2011.03.05 23:40:00 - [1595] Edited by: Janis Ezra on 05/03/2011 23:41:26 Be happy CCP is doing nothing against bots. With an active anti bot policy, all big alliances and corporations would be dead, they need 23/7 ratters/miners. And as you can see in various famous blogs about botting, there are more then you think. A single 23/7 ratter could restock a whole corp. No alliances = no competition = no PvP = game dead. Plus the fact that CCP likes the juicy income from bots. Adapt or die.
coolzero Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.06 00:09:00 - [1596] Originally by: Janis Ezra Edited by: Janis Ezra on 05/03/2011 23:41:26 Be happy CCP is doing nothing against bots. With an active anti bot policy, all big alliances and corporations would be dead, they need 23/7 ratters/miners. And as you can see in various famous blogs about botting, there are more then you think. A single 23/7 ratter could restock a whole corp. No alliances = no competition = no PvP = game dead. Plus the fact that CCP likes the juicy income from bots. Adapt or die. infact i think they should be more happy when that happens and big allinaces will be gone.. their goal was to get more people into 0.0 but its pretty useless to do now if you a small alliance looking for a bit of a 0.0 space to make a living in but if your a honest alliance that wont support(and be sopported by) bots ....you WILL be steamrolled bij a mass ammount of titans by alliance(s) that get to buy all ships becuase they get mass ammounts of isk by bots. as i see it when they get rid of bots 0.0 will become much more atractive to live in for smaller groups/alliances as they would have a fair chance to make a living there. Jack of all trades, master of none...
Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp White Angels.	Posted - 2011.03.06 01:17:00 - [1597] In today's world the only real way to fight off bots is to create an automated detection system. However, if the bots or bot owners can figure out how the system is detecting them then they rewrite the bot to avoid being detected. So if CCP just creates a simple program to detect botters that is based on the capabilities of actual humans then the bot will be rewritten until it matches the definition of "human" according to the detection program. If the situation becomes that of simple adjustments of the program overtime then it becomes like a back and forth battle between botters and CCP. However, the fun begins when CCP takes the time to make a well written program that prevents the bot from figuring out how it is being detected. Such a program could take a considerable time to write. They would have to make sure it is complex enough that there wouldn't be a way for a bot or human to detect any of the indivdual components of the program. If it becomes possible for the botter to detect individual parts then the botter will eventually be able to write a bot to avoid all of the individual parts and CCP would have lost the battle. My theory is that CCP is currently working on a program like this and are taking their time to get it right the first time, otherwise they are back at square one. The moment they start doing mass permabans is the moment the battle begins to avoid detection. If the first shot doesn't work good enough to kill the majority of harmful bots and avoid detection from the botters then it would have been a complete failure. Bots nowadays are far too easy to detect even by human standards. Now of course all such easily detectable bots have been tagged so they will be the first heads on the chopping blocks. Make no mistake CCP wants that RMT money as they could hire quite a few more workers with it. So, I am sure CCP is keeping the nitty gritty secret so the botters/rmt don't get a leg up in the coming battle. I heard a rumor a while back that CCP had a plan for getting rid of the bots and that they were going to start it in Feburary or at least have it completed sometime during that past month. If CCP does in fact have such a plan, then I think it would be prudent to start it up BEFORE fanfest. During fanfest such a plan could be leaked to a botter/rmt individual quite easily. If such a thing were to happen then you would lose the advantage in this fight as that individual would now know your current progress and be able to counter it. There is a good amount of money in it, so you can go ahead and assume that such a thing would happen. If there isn't a plan, then I would go ahead and start making one. If you don't want to make a plan then at least create a basic detection program to get rid of the obvious bots and try to generally get the capabilities of individual bot accounts down to the capabilities of a human. However, there is a good amount of money in CCP countering bots and taking the flow of RMT money through PLEX so I think I can assume they have a plan in the works. Well, we will see what happens come fanfest, hopefully its good news. If botting/rmt doesn't ever come up during fanfest then I will simply check to see it battlestar galactica is any good. I don't know where, I don't know when... but something awful is going to happen xD
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.03.06 01:46:00 - [1598] Originally by: Elzon1 My theory is that CCP is currently working on a program like this and are taking their time to get it right the first time, otherwise they are back at square one. The moment they start doing mass permabans is the moment the battle begins to avoid detection. If the first shot doesn't work good enough to kill the majority of harmful bots and avoid detection from the botters then it would have been a complete failure. You don't like the theory that CCP really don't want to confront the issue, and would rather see the topic die, and the few whiners leave (or get fed up whining, and maybe even join the botters), whilst they continue to accumulate revenue from the botters?
Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp White Angels.	Posted - 2011.03.06 03:09:00 - [1599] Originally by: Nina Mercedez You don't like the theory that CCP really don't want to confront the issue I would like to see all bots banned. Seeing such obvious bots around and not really doing anything substantial against it would seem embarassing to most. Originally by: Nina Mercedez and would rather see the topic die, and the few whiners leave (or get fed up whining, and maybe even join the botters) Absolutely not, I would like to see people play this game honestly and hopefully have some fun as the game develops more advanced and interesting mechanics. I guess its still a running joke that EVE is still in beta and I don't mind that being the case as long as CCP keeps pushing the boundaries of gaming. Originally by: Nina Mercedez whilst they continue to accumulate revenue from the botters? If you mean CCP then you fail to realize that CCP would gain more money from the isk demand from RMT than they would from the subscription fees from the bots. Its only that people have found a way to get isk discounted as compared to PLEX so as to get more bang for their buck. When the majority of botting isk supply runs dry then those who want isk for money will have to find another supply, namely PLEX (money to CCP). When that happens the isk price of PLEX will drop due to the increase in PLEX supply. With the demand for PLEX being fairly fixed and the demand for isk being much greater the price should drop considerably. This phenomena was seen with the unholy rage incident. If CCP can manage to keep bots out of the game the new PLEX price should remain fairly low. Of course, this lends the possibility that honest players may begin to see dollar signs and try to "honestly" do RMT. However, if the PLEX price drops low enough simply getting a crappy low paying job in real life would make you considerably more money per hour. As it stands a decent bot can make upwards of 20mil per hour, multiply that by 23 hours and thats 460mil... nothing special right? Wrong, thats only one bot and a decent comp setup could yield 10 bots. So with 10 bots thats 4.6 bil per day, not bad. Now take 4.6bil and divide that by 32mil, thats 143.75. Now take 143.75 and multiply that by 2 and that gives you 287.5. 287.5 is the number of dollars someone could earn with 10 bots running on a single comp in a single day. Multiply that by 30 and thats 8,625 USD per month. Income like that is hard to pass up even if its not your main source of income. This is why CCP would like RMT to stop so that they can have this money to devlop their game, not just make some nerd out there wealthy. It would be to CCP's benefit to be able to get rid of the botters, they just need to have a well cordinated plan and implement it. I can only hope that time is coming soon. I don't know where, I don't know when... but something awful is going to happen xD
Sito Jaxa	Posted - 2011.03.06 03:59:00 - [1600] Originally by: Batolemaeus Edited by: Batolemaeus on 05/03/2011 16:32:15 Originally by: Sito Jaxa I'm not saying 'quit the game if you don't like it,' Actually, that's precisely what you're advocating. It's either break the EULA and stay competitive, or don't and be at a considerable strategic and economical disadvantage to the point of not being able to fight battles due to the lack of supercaps. Where do you get that the only way to fight a bot alliance is to become a bot alliance? Learn2strategonize.

Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.06 04:09:00 - [1601] ^ Botters getting worried? --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Ozwald Rens	Posted - 2011.03.06 04:13:00 - [1602] Quote: B-D) 82 bots were reported, 20 of them were banned for one day I think that is the real issue at hand here. CCP does not seem to want to take proper action against bots. This is completely beyond me, and it will cost them financially faster than they'd think. 1) Anything less than a permanent ban for botting - for the botting account and related accounts - is laughable. Botting is not something that you do "by accident". 2) In the current state of botting, it is super easy for CCP to identify almost all botters quickly as there are clear and easy patterns to spot. By the way: the real victims of botting are all players that are still stupid enough to pay for the game instead of botting themselves.
Ozwald Rens	Posted - 2011.03.06 04:17:00 - [1603] Originally by: Elzon1 In today's world the only real way to fight off bots is to create an automated detection system. However, if the bots or bot owners can figure out how the system is detecting them then they rewrite the bot to avoid being detected. So if CCP just creates a simple program to detect botters that is based on the capabilities of actual humans then the bot will be rewritten until it matches the definition of "human" according to the detection program. If the situation becomes that of simple adjustments of the program overtime then it becomes like a back and forth battle between botters and CCP. However, the fun begins when CCP takes the time to make a well written program that prevents the bot from figuring out how it is being detected. Such a program could take a considerable time to write. They would have to make sure it is complex enough that there wouldn't be a way for a bot or human to detect any of the indivdual components of the program. If it becomes possible for the botter to detect individual parts then the botter will eventually be able to write a bot to avoid all of the individual parts and CCP would have lost the battle. My theory is that CCP is currently working on a program like this and are taking their time to get it right the first time, otherwise they are back at square one. The moment they start doing mass permabans is the moment the battle begins to avoid detection. If the first shot doesn't work good enough to kill the majority of harmful bots and avoid detection from the botters then it would have been a complete failure. Bots nowadays are far too easy to detect even by human standards. Now of course all such easily detectable bots have been tagged so they will be the first heads on the chopping blocks. Make no mistake CCP wants that RMT money as they could hire quite a few more workers with it. So, I am sure CCP is keeping the nitty gritty secret so the botters/rmt don't get a leg up in the coming battle. I heard a rumor a while back that CCP had a plan for getting rid of the bots and that they were going to start it in Feburary or at least have it completed sometime during that past month. If CCP does in fact have such a plan, then I think it would be prudent to start it up BEFORE fanfest. During fanfest such a plan could be leaked to a botter/rmt individual quite easily. If such a thing were to happen then you would lose the advantage in this fight as that individual would now know your current progress and be able to counter it. There is a good amount of money in it, so you can go ahead and assume that such a thing would happen. If there isn't a plan, then I would go ahead and start making one. If you don't want to make a plan then at least create a basic detection program to get rid of the obvious bots and try to generally get the capabilities of individual bot accounts down to the capabilities of a human. However, there is a good amount of money in CCP countering bots and taking the flow of RMT money through PLEX so I think I can assume they have a plan in the works. Well, we will see what happens come fanfest, hopefully its good news. If botting/rmt doesn't ever come up during fanfest then I will simply check to see it battlestar galactica is any good. I think you are missing one easy angle to detect botting: instead of checking for the actual bot programme running, you can simply check for bot-like behaviour (online 23/7, always warps out when somebody jumps into system, etc) - sure, this could in principle affect a "real person", in that case, i'm sure a manual check up will resolve the issue. Plus, CCP could always implement a system that asks a player to enter a captcha if they are to bot-like for a prolonged period of time. (this by the way, has been done successfully in online poker as well)
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.06 04:30:00 - [1604] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 06/03/2011 04:32:22 Originally by: Ozwald Rens I think you are missing one easy angle to detect botting: instead of checking for the actual bot programme running, you can simply check for bot-like behaviour (online 23/7, always warps out when somebody jumps into system, etc) - sure, this could in principle affect a "real person", in that case, i'm sure a manual check up will resolve the issue. Plus, CCP could always implement a system that asks a player to enter a captcha if they are to bot-like for a prolonged period of time. (this by the way, has been done successfully in online poker as well) This is true. It would be interesting to get some data (which CCP must have) that shows isk generation and time online, in a graph for botters and non-botters over 24, 7 day and 30 day periods. I'm sure there would be distinct differences. And preemptively using that information would net you a lot of potential bots to ban. By preemptively I mean thinking of ways to detect bots, without a fanfest exposing all your intentions and tactics and mass banning a whole bunch at once before they adapt. Then rinse and repeat. The war on bots / RMT is like a mini-version of the war on drugs. Theres no silver bullet, it will take a permanant and skillful team of CCP employee's to control it. If you killed every single method of botting in game you would still have farmers, real humans in developing countries, renting and farming in person, to raise funds for RMT. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Ozwald Rens	Posted - 2011.03.06 04:36:00 - [1605] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 06/03/2011 04:32:22 Originally by: Ozwald Rens I think you are missing one easy angle to detect botting: instead of checking for the actual bot programme running, you can simply check for bot-like behaviour (online 23/7, always warps out when somebody jumps into system, etc) - sure, this could in principle affect a "real person", in that case, i'm sure a manual check up will resolve the issue. Plus, CCP could always implement a system that asks a player to enter a captcha if they are to bot-like for a prolonged period of time. (this by the way, has been done successfully in online poker as well) This is true. It would be interesting to get some data (which CCP must have) that shows isk generation and time online, in a graph for botters and non-botters over 24, 7 day and 30 day periods. I'm sure there would be distinct differences. And preemptively using that information would net you a lot of potential bots to ban. By preemptively I mean thinking of ways to detect bots, without a fanfest exposing all your intentions and tactics and mass banning a whole bunch at once before they adapt. Then rinse and repeat. The war on bots / RMT is like a mini-version of the war on drugs. Theres no silver bullet, it will take a permanant and skillful team of CCP employee's to control it. If you killed every single method of botting in game you would still have farmers, real humans in developing countries, renting and farming in person, to raise funds for RMT. Yep, all it takes is the data mining mentioned above plus a feature that allows GMs to send a captcha request to a player (or an algorithm that sends those automatically based on some triggers etc)
Bhattran	Posted - 2011.03.06 04:41:00 - [1606] Originally by: Ozwald Rens I think you are missing one easy angle to detect botting: instead of checking for the actual bot programme running, you can simply check for bot-like behaviour (online 23/7, always warps out when somebody jumps into system, etc) - sure, this could in principle affect a "real person", in that case, i'm sure a manual check up will resolve the issue. Plus, CCP could always implement a system that asks a player to enter a captcha if they are to bot-like for a prolonged period of time. (this by the way, has been done successfully in online poker as well) Everything you mention has been mentioned before and none of the 'easy angles' are automatic guaranteed to give you a bot, unless you find a character running 23/7 for 5+ days, not online, but in game running missions/mining/ratting with no time to sleep, shower, deficate, eat, etc. The rest of the 'easy angles' are only going to point to suspects that have to be further monitored and a manual check won't clear the suspects. So you were there when the captcha appeared, which many have said can be handled by bots, does that mean you aren't botting? Bot detection starts with narrowing down all accounts to ones that are suspect then investigating them further through more suspicious behavior/data being collected. Either there will appear a 100% 'got you' like 20days of 23/7 'active' playing', or exacting routines that point to a scripted behavior, or you have to further investigate with things like GM convo requests, or other GM interventions like dumping your ship 10 jumps away, jamming it, having real conversations, etc. Short of that you'd need to look at the client's machine, or client, to see bot programs running if that is even effective and can't be circumvented. Getting suspects is 'easy' narrowing them down to the actual bots and 'proving' it is not in any case where the botter actually puts effort into not being caught red handed. Beyond all that is fundamentally changing the game so botting isn't effective, as in revamping PVE mechanics. Talk of making mining require more interaction through scanning roids and 'hot spots' or 'empty roids' staying on grid that when mined return nothing, etc. --WIS/Incarna/Ambulation where microtransactions come to play, and uh bars.--
Sahmul The Grimreapers.	Posted - 2011.03.06 05:11:00 - [1607] @Ozwald You should educate yourself. Captcha was broken by botters a long time ago. I'd love to see an end to bots, but Captcha's are not the solution. All they achieve is to slightly inconvenience bot writers, and to annoy actual players.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.03.06 05:31:00 - [1608] ve becomes more crappp because of MACROs Jita is macro 24/7... mining is all macro, 0.0 and missions are macro. If you are do not macro you pay for those guys with plexes, so you can grind less and PvP more. Hence = everybody macro. Eve - another yellow FRPG (asi-like fail online RPG) eve is FAILING
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.03.06 05:42:00 - [1609] Edited by: Opertone on 06/03/2011 05:42:57 typical macro behavior - more than 1 client with same IP adress, all grouped up for mining... all actively playing which is not possible if it was real human. CCP should permaban players who actually macro. Unless they do it, gamebalance will be dead and the quality of eve will be ruined. EvE will become stale, later on people will stop playing, some will keep their characters. Game will become stupid, no new subscribes no awards. RPG's death - red dwarf... becomes so rotten and plagued with ASI-parasites that nobody wants to play. ASI-parasites these ISK farmers, macro makers, people from 3rd world countries who turn RPGs into RMT business. They have car tires to steal, push them out of online entertainment - it is too delicate for their corrupt imagination.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.06 07:47:00 - [1610] captchas are a completely unacceptable solution from a game design POV as they #1 immersion breakers.

Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp White Angels.	Posted - 2011.03.06 08:09:00 - [1611] Originally by: Ozwald Rens I think you are missing one easy angle to detect botting: instead of checking for the actual bot programme running, you can simply check for bot-like behaviour (online 23/7, always warps out when somebody jumps into system, etc) - sure, this could in principle affect a "real person", in that case, i'm sure a manual check up will resolve the issue. Plus, CCP could always implement a system that asks a player to enter a captcha if they are to bot-like for a prolonged period of time. (this by the way, has been done successfully in online poker as well) This is exactly what I meant by detecting bots, looking for their activity. You can't really run a search for a bot program and think you are going to find one in-game. You look for pridictable behavior used by botters. You could even set something up to plug in bot programs you have downloaded and see if there are any players using such behavior. When those programs update you get an update as well and run more scans. On the subject of captchas, there are many bots that have the capability to crack them. Its all about hitting them all hard and in such a complex way that they can't figure out exactly what procedures were used in order to detect them. I don't know where, I don't know when... but something awful is going to happen xD
Zophos Akratos Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2011.03.06 08:29:00 - [1612] Originally by: Opertone ve becomes more crappp because of MACROs Jita is macro 24/7... mining is all macro, 0.0 and missions are macro. If you are do not macro you pay for those guys with plexes, so you can grind less and PvP more. Hence = everybody macro. Eve - another yellow FRPG (asi-like fail online RPG) eve is FAILING Are you sure that missions can be macro'd aswell? I was actually hoping that that was one of the few things besides actual PvP that cannot be dominated by macro's :[? And yes, I know macro's rat, but that's different from missioning.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.06 09:05:00 - [1613] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 06/03/2011 09:15:15 Originally by: Zophos Akratos Are you sure that missions can be macro'd aswell? I was actually hoping that that was one of the few things besides actual PvP that cannot be dominated by macro's :[? Missions can be automated as well - currently there are at least two mission running bots on the market (both are free & sourcecode is publicly available but they require subscription-based software to work). The one I had a closer look at seems to have a few limitations (purely drone based setups don't work well, omni tank is required) but is able to pick up missions, select suitable ammo, execute missions (including non-combat actions like fetching stuff from cans), warp into safety when tank or capacitor is low, prioritize tackling ships (and webbing ones if you run a speed tank), do looting and salvaging either on the fly (Marauders) or with a dedicated salvaging ship once the mission is completed, and hand in missions. Mission actions are read from XML files, if no specific actions have been defined the tool just waits 15s for aggression, then continues to clear the room, looks for the next acceleration gate and repeats until no acceleration gate is left. The mission definition XML files basically give a description of the mission actions like "kill every ship except for Kruul; kill Kruul; kill every ship that has spawned; shoot the Pleasure Hub but stop once attackers appear and kill these before resuming to shoot the Hub; loot the Damsel from one of the cargo cans; return home". Typical ships seem to be Marauders and Tengus - a larger operation would obviously benefit from fleet boosting alts in the most common solar systems. Unlike ratting bots you can of course put any amount of mission bots into a single solar system without experiencing diminishing returns. On the other hand due to the "only omni-tanking" limitation fairly expensive ships and/or high SP characters seem to be required. Mission running is done in deadspace pockets and as such much further from the public's eyes than belt mining. Therefore it is very hard to estimate how many people use mission bots - but the necessary software does exist and is only a google search away. edit: as for actual pvp - there's no plausible reason why you couldn't automate large fleet pvp as long as FC orders are consistently relied through fleet broadcasts. "align there", "shoot this", "give this ship some RR", ... are all actions that could easily be executed by a bot.
Mangold Mad Bombers Merciless.	Posted - 2011.03.06 15:05:00 - [1614] It would be great to hear something from CCP about this. Or is the silence saying that it's ok to bot? I sure as **** have seen a fair share of chars that are on every time I manage to visit their system. Could be someone without a job, but seriously, do you believe that? This game used to harsh and a loss really ment something as people had to work to gather enough isk to buy a new ship again. That's no more. So.....what's the reason to play this game instead of something else? The reasons are getting few.
hothcar	Posted - 2011.03.06 15:42:00 - [1615] I like the idea of mass account unsubs to get ccp's attention quickly. Maybe they will do away with the offical excuse of "I was drunk" as a reason for underperformance. Star Wars is coming and you guys had better step this game up quickly or risk becoming the game mentioned in G4 tv game show and I think you know what I mean.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.03.06 16:16:00 - [1616] Originally by: Zophos Akratos Are you sure that missions can be macro'd aswell? I was actually hoping that that was one of the few things besides actual PvP that cannot be dominated by macro's :[? And yes, I know macro's rat, but that's different from missioning. I studied macro related resources. According to numerous forums, macro programs can work with client interface - i.e. move mouse cursor and identify pixels and read directly the memory of the client. Yeah, missions can be macroed, this is confirmed by third party script writers, they create a suitable script which can slowly deal with mission NPCs and random objectives. The macro identifies targets in overview and shoots them, when necessary it can shield boost or warp out. It just takes more time to write the script for each mission to make it fully automatic. There is spam bot, autopilot bot, NPC hunting bot, mining bot, hauling bot, courier mission bot and kill mission bot. Trade bot is fairly easy to make and I assume some in-house versions exist.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.03.06 16:27:00 - [1617] Originally by: Mangold It would be great to hear something from CCP about this. Or is the silence saying that it's ok to bot? I sure as ** have seen a fair share of chars that are on every time I manage to visit their system. Could be someone without a job, but seriously, do you believe that? This game used to harsh and a loss really ment something as people had to work to gather enough isk to buy a new ship again. That's no more. So.....what's the reason to play this game instead of something else? The reasons are getting few. ... this game is *** and you need to macro, hack, and yellow to enjoy it. Asian attempt to kill the game is not unnoticed, paying to play a failed game is a FAILURE.
Cornerwood	Posted - 2011.03.06 17:34:00 - [1618] Edited by: Cornerwood on 06/03/2011 17:34:51 Take a blue or red pill, it will not change the fact bots run eve. Seems that only way to get giant leap ahead these bots is to implement Captcha and develope it even further. There is always whiners when choice has been made. People must be somewhat working together in this thing or eve will just vanish like other "dynasties". We must take our heads out from that fantasy of thinking captcha or recaptcha ruins eve. Ofcourse first real step is always hard for baby. Eve is like baby on this and have not made any steps. Some minor tries, but there is no try only doing best we get rid of botting. Ccp needs action and lead the way to get rid all bots from beginning.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.03.06 18:33:00 - [1619] Originally by: Opertone Originally by: Mangold It would be great to hear something from CCP about this. Or is the silence saying that it's ok to bot? I sure as ** have seen a fair share of chars that are on every time I manage to visit their system. Could be someone without a job, but seriously, do you believe that? This game used to harsh and a loss really ment something as people had to work to gather enough isk to buy a new ship again. That's no more. So.....what's the reason to play this game instead of something else? The reasons are getting few. ... this game is *** and you need to macro, hack, and yellow to enjoy it. Asian attempt to kill the game is not unnoticed, paying to play a failed game is a FAILURE. I must say I've never see that word (the censored one) used in that context before.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.03.06 19:02:00 - [1620] Originally by: Janis Ezra Edited by: Janis Ezra on 05/03/2011 23:41:26 Be happy CCP is doing nothing against bots. With an active anti bot policy, all big alliances and corporations would be dead, they need 23/7 ratters/miners. And as you can see in various famous blogs about botting, there are more then you think. A single 23/7 ratter could restock a whole corp. No alliances = no competition = no PvP = game dead. Plus the fact that CCP likes the juicy income from bots. Adapt or die. liar or sucker... mustba be sucker, with anti bot policy game becomes playable by people WHO actually constitute 80% of playing base, who pay with their credit cards regularly and have 2-3 hours a day to play. With bots banned your 2-3 hours becomes comparable to other human beings in how hard it is to gain the resources to wage war. It becomes more enjoyable and competitive for casual players. You advocate that with HACKs EvE appeals to 20% of the player base who actively support hacking and botting to gain advantage. Your statement is full of deception.

Brannoncyll	Posted - 2011.03.06 20:27:00 - [1621] Originally by: Opertone typical macro behavior - more than 1 client with same IP adress, all grouped up for mining... all actively playing which is not possible if it was real human. One of the guys in our corp regularly mines with 3 hulks and an orca simultaneously. This is not difficult because the cycle times are so long. He has a clever arrangement of the four clients such that there is one main screen, and behind this are arrayed the other 3 such that the modules interfaces are all visible on screen. He has also demonstrated his proficiency with this setup in level 4 missions and in PvP.
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.06 20:41:00 - [1622] Originally by: Brannoncyll Originally by: Opertone typical macro behavior - more than 1 client with same IP adress, all grouped up for mining... all actively playing which is not possible if it was real human. One of the guys in our corp regularly mines with 3 hulks and an orca simultaneously. This is not difficult because the cycle times are so long. He has a clever arrangement of the four clients such that there is one main screen, and behind this are arrayed the other 3 such that the modules interfaces are all visible on screen. He has also demonstrated his proficiency with this setup in level 4 missions and in PvP. I alt-tab mine, but have 3 separate client installs, each with a different UI colour so I can easily identify who's who.
mkmin	Posted - 2011.03.06 20:46:00 - [1623] Originally by: Burnharder Originally by: Brannoncyll Originally by: Opertone typical macro behavior - more than 1 client with same IP adress, all grouped up for mining... all actively playing which is not possible if it was real human. One of the guys in our corp regularly mines with 3 hulks and an orca simultaneously. This is not difficult because the cycle times are so long. He has a clever arrangement of the four clients such that there is one main screen, and behind this are arrayed the other 3 such that the modules interfaces are all visible on screen. He has also demonstrated his proficiency with this setup in level 4 missions and in PvP. I alt-tab mine, but have 3 separate client installs, each with a different UI colour so I can easily identify who's who. Not to mention if a bunch of friends in a dorm, or on a college campus, happen to be playing together. Any filtering by IP is meaningless because you risk massive amounts of false positives.
Sahmul The Grimreapers.	Posted - 2011.03.06 23:21:00 - [1624] Originally by: Cornerwood We must take our heads out from that fantasy of thinking captcha or recaptcha ruins eve. I'd prefer people to let go of the fantasy that Captcha has any effect whatsoever on bots.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.07 00:13:00 - [1625] Originally by: Batolemaeus That their bots don't account for slingbubbles at the pos they safe up on if a hostile/neutral enters local, and that they definitely aren't operated by humans as they would never warp into something repeatedly anchored UNDER THEIR OWN EYES. They're also active 23/7. So yes, they're all bots. i suppose that if they did it over and over (like more than a couple of times)... and that you are certain that they didn't understand what a safe-spot is, and that they weren't actually using any of the readily available bots that detect reds and nuets in system... then yeah, you're probably right. but the point still remains: 2 probable and 10-16 possible bots does NOT make an alliance rich. especially considering the number of moons that particular alliance has access to. or any large alliance for that matter. again, to me the chances are higher that 'some' individuals run bots selfishly - i.e. not really combining efforts to mass produce titans.
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.07 01:06:00 - [1626] Originally by: Opertone Edited by: Opertone on 06/03/2011 05:42:57 typical macro behavior - more than 1 client with same IP adress, all grouped up for mining... all actively playing which is not possible if it was real human. Are you nuts? I run 4 Hulks, an Orca, and a Mammoth hauler all being run by ONE person, ME. And... this all goes out through a single IP address on my DSL router. I was Mining Saturday like this, so that makes me a Bot? I also play with many other persons, that run more than one account out through the same IP gateway, one group of people is a Family, Mom, Dad and the kids. Tell me again, this is how Bots operate?
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.07 06:41:00 - [1627] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 07/03/2011 06:41:44 Originally by: Minarete Are you nuts? I run 4 Hulks, an Orca, and a Mammoth hauler all being run by ONE person, ME. And... this all goes out through a single IP address on my DSL router. I was Mining Saturday like this, so that makes me a Bot? ^^ Good reason to remove plex, apart from funding bots it funds stupidity like the above. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.03.07 06:53:00 - [1628] Originally by: Minarete Originally by: Opertone Edited by: Opertone on 06/03/2011 05:42:57 typical macro behavior - more than 1 client with same IP adress, all grouped up for mining... all actively playing which is not possible if it was real human. Are you nuts? I run 4 Hulks, an Orca, and a Mammoth hauler all being run by ONE person, ME. And... this all goes out through a single IP address on my DSL router. I was Mining Saturday like this, so that makes me a Bot? I also play with many other persons, that run more than one account out through the same IP gateway, one group of people is a Family, Mom, Dad and the kids. Tell me again, this is how Bots operate? No, it's just the kind of silly excuses they use ... How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Cornerwood	Posted - 2011.03.07 11:48:00 - [1629] So if Captcha is not working. Using somekind of form with dummy fields. The dummy fields are invisible to users but, bots will fill them and submit values. Maybe random order in dummy and real fields could make the difference so bots are caught . Normal users are not harmed by this.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.07 12:12:00 - [1630] Originally by: Opertone typical macro behavior - more than 1 client with same IP adress, all grouped up for mining... all actively playing which is not possible if it was real human. You are serious? With current mining mechanics it is easy to run 3 mining characters and a orca pilot with the same PC with minimal loss of efficiency without the need of any macro. Probably if you use a dual screen set up you will be capable to use them at peak efficiency with relatively little work.

Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.07 17:26:00 - [1631] Originally by: Sahmul Originally by: Cornerwood We must take our heads out from that fantasy of thinking captcha or recaptcha ruins eve. I'd prefer people to let go of the fantasy that Captcha has any effect whatsoever on bots. Ah, but they would. Well, they would with the simple "timer" style bots. The ones that mine, and when their ship explodes the pod keeps warping back and forth like its still in a ship. The more advanced bots can be programmed around captchas, so captchas are of limited use. So captchas must be very carefully resigned into the game to stop the timer macros while not annoying the players. Example: Replace asteroid fields with large single asteroids in a system wide belt. When you go to one of these, you see ore deposits on the surface that a human looking at the screen can easily distinguish. You can target different parts of the roid, and if you target and mine a deposit, you get ore. For a human miner, its easy. Fly to the roid, target a deposit, turn on the miners, watch TV until the hold is full. But a timer macro is helpless. All users of such would have to buy better bots. Some might actually decide to not bother. So this would be one of several bot blocking changes CCP could make. Other changes would block and/or detect the advanced bots.
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.03.07 23:17:00 - [1632] Someone should go through this entire topic, post by post, and summarize all the constructive comments in one giant post. Not me! Bump
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.08 00:05:00 - [1633] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 07/03/2011 06:41:44 Originally by: Minarete Are you nuts? I run 4 Hulks, an Orca, and a Mammoth hauler all being run by ONE person, ME. And... this all goes out through a single IP address on my DSL router. I was Mining Saturday like this, so that makes me a Bot? ^^ Good reason to remove plex, apart from funding bots it funds stupidity like the above. What exactly, does Plex have to do with the fact that I manually run 3 computers using 6 accounts? you make no sense at all. I pay for all of my accounts with PayPal, a small drop in the bucket each month, I know people that drink more than that in a single night! And tell me, what about what I do is stupid? the fact that you dont like to do what I do? /shrug, I dont get it.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.08 00:37:00 - [1634] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 08/03/2011 00:38:47 Originally by: Minarete Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 07/03/2011 06:41:44 Originally by: Minarete Are you nuts? I run 4 Hulks, an Orca, and a Mammoth hauler all being run by ONE person, ME. And... this all goes out through a single IP address on my DSL router. I was Mining Saturday like this, so that makes me a Bot? ^^ Good reason to remove plex, apart from funding bots it funds stupidity like the above. What exactly, does Plex have to do with the fact that I manually run 3 computers using 6 accounts? you make no sense at all. I pay for all of my accounts with PayPal, a small drop in the bucket each month, I know people that drink more than that in a single night! And tell me, what about what I do is stupid? the fact that you dont like to do what I do? /shrug, I dont get it. Well either you spend 89.00 per month, a little over $1000 per year. If you earned 100,000 per year thats 1% of your entire income, on a computer game which is definitely stupid or you use plex to fund the accounts. If you use plex to fund the accounts then it enables you to earn a huge amounts of isk vs someone who doesn't use plex which for those people is very bad. They have less money and prices are higher, thanks to you and your metagaming. Either your stupid (for wasting your money) or plex is stupid (for enabling stupid modes of play). --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.08 00:51:00 - [1635] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 08/03/2011 00:38:47 Originally by: Minarete Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 07/03/2011 06:41:44 Originally by: Minarete Are you nuts? I run 4 Hulks, an Orca, and a Mammoth hauler all being run by ONE person, ME. And... this all goes out through a single IP address on my DSL router. I was Mining Saturday like this, so that makes me a Bot? ^^ Good reason to remove plex, apart from funding bots it funds stupidity like the above. What exactly, does Plex have to do with the fact that I manually run 3 computers using 6 accounts? you make no sense at all. I pay for all of my accounts with PayPal, a small drop in the bucket each month, I know people that drink more than that in a single night! And tell me, what about what I do is stupid? the fact that you dont like to do what I do? /shrug, I dont get it. Well either you spend 89.00 per month, a little over $1000 per year. If you earned 100,000 per year thats 1% of your entire income, on a computer game which is definitely stupid or you use plex to fund the accounts. If you use plex to fund the accounts then it enables you to earn a huge amounts of isk vs someone who doesn't use plex which for those people is very bad. They have less money and prices are higher, thanks to you and your metagaming. Either your stupid (for wasting your money) or plex is stupid (for enabling stupid modes of play). You failed to answer either of my questions. Also, what people do for their enjoyment, is that any of your business? lol How you are Defining "Stupid", is not even rational, people do many many things for personal enjoyment, many of which cost well over $1,000.00 a month, not to mention a year. When i was younger, I use to race Motorcycles every weekend, that cost me well over $1,000.00 per month, it was very exhilarating. That entertainment was no better or worse than a computer game. Why do you have such a problem with how I get my enjoyment? does it affect your life? make you cry? what is it?
T'Laar Bok	Posted - 2011.03.08 01:08:00 - [1636] Originally by: Opertone more than 1 client with same IP adress, all grouped up for mining... all actively playing which is not possible if it was real human. What total and utter rubbish. I usually run 2 Hulks, sometimes 4 and 2 Orcas for up to 14hrs a day because... a) I like to cover myself in honey and roll around in all my trit. b) amphetamines are your friend and c) work is for the poor. Oh and thousands of people can share the same IP.
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services Quantum Forge	Posted - 2011.03.08 01:12:00 - [1637] Originally by: T'Laar Bok Originally by: Opertone more than 1 client with same IP adress, all grouped up for mining... all actively playing which is not possible if it was real human. What total and utter rubbish. agreed this is rubbish and the person is ******ed. I have two screens and I can run 5 accounts mining.... Mining with muli acounts not hard at all.
RenoIdo	Posted - 2011.03.08 01:17:00 - [1638] The real problem is that botters can run as many accounts as they want without having to pay any real money by using PLEX. If PLEX was removed, people running bots would need to pay for all their accounts or set up their own RMT buisness and that sounds like a lot of work that I doubt most would bother doing. If PLEX was removed I bet 3/4 of the bots would be gone.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.08 09:51:00 - [1639] Originally by: RenoIdo If PLEX was removed I bet 3/4 of the bots would be gone. Some personal use bots would be gone to be replaced by double that number of bot used by RMT cartels. PLEX are the strongest weapon against RMT in EVE as they are a legal way to trade RL money for isk, with the added bonus that they don't add isk to the game as buying isk directly from CCP will do. Part of the problem are the guys that want to PvP without doing any grinding to get isk. Some of them use bot to avoid the grinding and others sell PLEXes. if the PLEXes are removed you still get the players that bot to grind isk and force the player that formerly were selling PLEXes to get isk to buy from real money traders.
Aeronwen Carys	Posted - 2011.03.08 10:52:00 - [1640] Originally by: Opertone Originally by: Mangold It would be great to hear something from CCP about this. Or is the silence saying that it's ok to bot? I sure as ** have seen a fair share of chars that are on every time I manage to visit their system. Could be someone without a job, but seriously, do you believe that? This game used to harsh and a loss really ment something as people had to work to gather enough isk to buy a new ship again. That's no more. So.....what's the reason to play this game instead of something else? The reasons are getting few. ... this game is *** and you need to macro, hack, and yellow to enjoy it. Asian attempt to kill the game is not unnoticed, paying to play a failed game is a FAILURE. To be honest, its racist little bastards like you that are ruining this game. Oh, and reported by the way for racial abuse.

Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.08 12:34:00 - [1641] wow. just wow. 1. these guys who "play stupid" and "waste their money" ... eh, they play how they want. they spend their money how they want. calling 6 accounts a month a waste of money is equally true for one account a month - you pay for what you enjoy, and if they can afford it, then how is it your place to judge? 2. it is completely possible to run multiple accounts in this game. especially with mining. you only need to spend like 30 seconds clicking out of every 10 minutes. so i suppose the saturation point(the point where you would be constantly clicking/overwhelmed) would be around 20 accounts. while some of you may be ready to jump all over that claiming that it needs to be fixed - dont. A. the amount of click time has nothing to the with bots and RMT, machines will always be able to click fast enough. B. people enjoy having something they can do passively in the background on occasion, taking it away would solve nothing and ruin an aspect of the game for people. 3. PLEX cannot be the mainstay of RMT botters. and removing it would only HELP them. maybe we can consider putting on our critical thinking caps. If one took away the plex the RMT guys could sell their isk for that much more RL$; and they would have that much more ISK left over each month to sell (what is it, around 450m per month per character) plus, most of those people who otherwise bought plex for isk would become customers of the RMT guys - and if you understand supply and demand... then they would have that much more RL$ to run their bots with! so while you think plex enables RMT, its the exact opposite - not only could they afford it either way, but they would be more profitable and likely more massive (in terms of char's per RMT) than with PLEX.
RenoIdo	Posted - 2011.03.08 12:42:00 - [1642] Edited by: RenoIdo on 08/03/2011 12:45:00 Originally by: Arnakoz so while you think plex enables RMT, its the exact opposite - not only could they afford it either way, but they would be more profitable and likely more massive (in terms of char's per RMT) than with PLEX. I bet 5% of all the bots in eve are RMT. The other 95% are players running vmware and widely available, free, open source, simple to use bots to fund their own gameplay and subscriptions. Out of those 95% of bots that are not involved in RMT, very few would start their own buisness just to be able to sub their multiple bot accounts. These players that are botting are doing so because they can't afford to blow real money on tons of subscriptions or PLEX's.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.03.08 12:58:00 - [1643] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 07/03/2011 06:41:44 Originally by: Minarete Are you nuts? I run 4 Hulks, an Orca, and a Mammoth hauler all being run by ONE person, ME. And... this all goes out through a single IP address on my DSL router. I was Mining Saturday like this, so that makes me a Bot? ^^ Good reason to remove plex, apart from funding bots it funds stupidity like the above. I forgot to add 24/7... your bot knowledge is incredible. But looks more like malice and spite rather than helpfulness.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.03.08 13:01:00 - [1644] Originally by: T'Laar Bok Originally by: Opertone more than 1 client with same IP adress, all grouped up for mining... all actively playing which is not possible if it was real human. What total and utter rubbish. I usually run 2 Hulks, sometimes 4 and 2 Orcas for up to 14hrs a day because... a) I like to cover myself in honey and roll around in all my trit. b) amphetamines are your friend and c) work is for the poor. Oh and thousands of people can share the same IP. sorry dude, don't be hurt, I meant ... ALL ACTIVELY PLAYING 24/7, which is not possible for a human being.
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.03.08 13:05:00 - [1645] Originally by: RenoIdo I bet 5% of all the bots in eve are RMT. The other 95% are players running vmware and widely available, free, open source, simple to use bots to fund their own gameplay and subscriptions. Out of those 95% of bots that are not involved in RMT, very few would start their own buisness just to be able to sub their multiple bot accounts. These players that are botting are doing so because they can't afford to blow real money on tons of subscriptions or PLEX's. I tend to agree with you. Why not seperate the RMT and botting problems? I also bet the majority of macro users use them to pay their subscriptions with plex and get in-game money for themselves and/or their alliance. If you don't use it for RMT that doesn't make it ok imo ..
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.08 17:27:00 - [1646] Originally by: RenoIdo Out of those 95% of bots that are not involved in RMT, very few would start their own business just to be able to sub their multiple bot accounts. These players that are botting are doing so because they can't afford to blow real money on tons of subscriptions or PLEX's. They do not have to start their own business. Web sites that sell isk also buy it. Botting for dollars is just a click away.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.08 19:07:00 - [1647] Its become quite amusing watching the alts of various alliance characters trying to induce FUD (or as I call it "muddying the water") in this thread. Choice is pretty simple - you support cheating or you don't. No weasel words. Yes or no, pretty simple choice really. Also pretty obvious which choices on the CSM are active botting corps/alliances. Perhaps thats a sensible use of the (otherwise utterly useless) vote everyone is entitled to - vote for the known botting corp/alliances = vote for cheating. Vote for any other random passing moron = vote against cheating. Yeah maybe for once a vote for CSM might mean something other than sending another muppet to Iceland.
Milken Gekko	Posted - 2011.03.08 19:22:00 - [1648] What about ALL of Chribba's site that display big google ads for ISK sellers... those ads are seen and clicked everyday by hundreds of eve players... now tell me that's not convenient. Oh wait, I forgot that was ok... kinda like those rappers who don't deal drugs but can't seem to stop singing about it for some reasons.
Ephemeron Black Aces Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2011.03.08 19:26:00 - [1649] I have personally observed some 0.0 bot behaviors, they are smart enough not to get safe when standings are positive. So they ignore blues. As soon as a non-blue comes in local, they warp to safe or POS as alliance member I was told not to attack bots if they are blue, and they are blue cause they pay rent.
LittleTerror Tea Tactics Vera Cruz Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.08 19:30:00 - [1650] CCP Stop macro users!

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.08 19:35:00 - [1651] Originally by: Ephemeron I have personally observed some 0.0 bot behaviors, they are smart enough not to get safe when standings are positive. So they ignore blues. As soon as a non-blue comes in local, they warp to safe or POS as alliance member I was told not to attack bots if they are blue, and they are blue cause they pay rent. That is standard practice for -A- and AAA Citizens. As you've said your alliance knows all about it and benefits greatly. TBH I have never seen a AAA Citizen doing anything other than bot. -A- and AAA Citizens cheat on an organised basis. Ephemeron has just confirmed that quite clearly. Over to you CCP We won't hold our breath for you doing anything as we know you're not going to bother.
Ephemeron Black Aces Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2011.03.08 19:54:00 - [1652] Make no mistake, ALL big alliances have members or renters that employ bots - with or without public knowledge of alliance leaders. It would be political suicide for any alliance to take hard stance against botting. When everyone else does it, you have to do it to stay competitive. However, it is also wrong to assume that every member of big alliance supports botting. Most of the PvPers hate botting, they just can't do anything. CCP has to level the playing field.
Milken Gekko	Posted - 2011.03.08 19:57:00 - [1653] so we need political suicides... I'll get right on that
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.08 20:12:00 - [1654] Originally by: Ephemeron Make no mistake, ALL big alliances have members or renters that employ bots - with or without public knowledge of alliance leaders. It would be political suicide for any alliance to take hard stance against botting. When everyone else does it, you have to do it to stay competitive. However, it is also wrong to assume that every member of big alliance supports botting. Most of the PvPers hate botting, they just can't do anything. CCP has to level the playing field. Well up to a point I agree. Then I look at Stain. Been AAA Citizens in there macro ratting for at least 3 YEARS. So while I agree with you that macro ratting is endemic I don't agree with your statement of "most of the pvpers hate botting" as many of the "pvpers" in -A- are the people RUNNING the bots in Stain (and Catch last year). You're inside -A- and I respect you for being honest but you KNOW that botting is encouraged amongst the -A- renters. It always has been, otherwise how are they going to pay the rent each month? I hope the new BOFH guy has a clue about the community feeling here. I suspect he doesn't and gods help him if he doesn't for he'll be roasted alive - as will CCP who are on the last of their nine lives regarding this matter.
MahNyx	Posted - 2011.03.08 21:38:00 - [1655] Originally by: Othran I hope the new BOFH guy has a clue about the community feeling here. I suspect he doesn't and gods help him if he doesn't for he'll be roasted alive - as will CCP who are on the last of their nine lives regarding this matter. what matter? this is much ado about nothing.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.08 21:44:00 - [1656] Originally by: MahNyx what matter? this is much ado about nothing. Oh I don't know about that. At the very least this thread - and the now-promised FF response - will indicate to people whether they should go bot themselves. Not much point in staying "honest" if the GMs don't ban mmm? So for that reason anyway we should keep the thread in view. Do feel free to keep muddying the water though
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.03.08 22:06:00 - [1657] Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 08/03/2011 22:08:12 Originally by: Milken Gekko What about ALL of Chribba's site that display big google ads for ISK sellers... those ads are seen and clicked everyday by hundreds of eve players... now tell me that's not convenient. Funny thing is that when I go there, I don't get adds for isk sellers, bots, cheats, hacks, game guides or anything else like that. I guess my history doesn't suggest to GoogleAds I'd be interested in those products. Edit: Just double checked... ad for Allstate insurance.
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.08 22:08:00 - [1658] Edited by: Minarete on 08/03/2011 22:09:24 Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 08/03/2011 22:07:25 Originally by: Milken Gekko What about ALL of Chribba's site that display big google ads for ISK sellers... those ads are seen and clicked everyday by hundreds of eve players... now tell me that's not convenient. Funny thing is that when I go there, I don't get adds for isk sellers, bots, cheats, hacks, game guides or anything else like that. I guess my history doesn't suggest to GoogleAds I'd be interested in those products. Edit: Just double checked... add for Allstate insurance. Ya, all i get is P O R N site ads.. oh, never mind..
Herr Starrr	Posted - 2011.03.08 22:20:00 - [1659] It seems to me given the upcoming announcement at fanfest that any action or change is already decided. I remember reading online a while back about a poker site using software to identify a bot to player ratio using different flags such as time active online. Hopefully CCP follows similar but also monitor bot software development and copy the small patch theory to frustrating these programmes. Monitoring a users time online before and after a patch that stops bot software can probably be programmed only for those flagged, eg after reading one forum today they mentioned they were all offline after a major patch for about 1 week. Comments earlier about eve not being compatible with certain things in vmware gives examples of small changes that can be made. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Now for a question. Name me the csm candidates with no null sec alliance links since they all to some degree appear to be as bad as each other for allowing botting.
LABIUM LEAK	Posted - 2011.03.08 22:27:00 - [1660] http://tinyurl.com/6kgafhx mass ban please ccp

Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.09 00:04:00 - [1661] CCP Sreegs, where are you? This thread was much more fun with your participation. Please come back. Also, you said you were going to address my last set of questions, but never did.
Kilarya Amarri	Posted - 2011.03.09 06:03:00 - [1662] well it seams that booting problem last about 2/3 of game life so i am curious just how much of the problem is it, 5/6 years of doing nothing sounds terrible and quick fix then isn't possible? just how much of them are there in % vs real player? why was booting allowed in the first place common logic dictate preventing thing before epidemic hit the fan.
Devil's Call Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.09 07:35:00 - [1663] Originally by: Kilarya Amarri well it seams that booting problem last about 2/3 of game life so i am curious just how much of the problem is it, 5/6 years of doing nothing sounds terrible and quick fix then isn't possible? just how much of them are there in % vs real player? why was booting allowed in the first place common logic dictate preventing thing before epidemic hit the fan. I'm not exactly sure what you mean...? 2/3th of game life? You imply that 2/3th of the entire game is made out of bots... or what? I suspect that the number of bots can go as high as 10%, maby even higher... hence CCP is carefull with banning them, as they might see a huge dip in subscribers. But then again, the potential subscribers that might all come and/or come back to the game after it has been purged of bots might be huge. I really hope that they can figure something out before incarna hits:-). "You know whos alt wink wink nudge nudge"
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.09 11:01:00 - [1664] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 09/03/2011 11:03:36 Has Riverini published yet? Also, looks like we were too much of "big meanies" for the CCP guy to come back... that or he realized he made a mistake saying there would be news at fanfest ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Grey Stormshadow	Posted - 2011.03.09 11:03:00 - [1665] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1479579
Jaik7	Posted - 2011.03.09 16:18:00 - [1666] not letting win thread die. this is important to us. we don't want cheaters to continue getting ahead of legitimate players by illegal means. i am directly affected by this as a miner, my minerals are not nearly as valuable as they should be because botters are creating too much supply.
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.03.09 20:10:00 - [1667] very "nice" things to see (again): In Isk we Trust: Iskbank.com Exposed, Thousand of Customers Outed. IskBank.com û Client list.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.09 23:37:00 - [1668] In his blog on phishing CCP Sreegs said: "It is important to note that phishing is not the only way your credentials or private information can be stolen. One example we've given a bit in the past is third-party applications such as bots. We spend some time reverse-engineering this code and there are very few cases where ANY "botting" application does NOT send information to the creator that you did not intend it to. There is also NO class of bot that does not violate the EULA and will not get your account actioned against when we detect it. In one case that springs immediately to mind a freely distributed piece of code had a time-bomb in it where on a certain date and time it transferred the contents of the wallets of everyone using it to the creator." One wonders how much of the isk being sold came from bots that included such malware. It also shows that a messy, interrelated issue bots, RMT, phishing, and account hacking is
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.09 23:44:00 - [1669] So, who's going to kick up the biggest fuss about this? I was going to vote :p.
Kireiina	Posted - 2011.03.10 03:18:00 - [1670] No one is going to kick up a fuss about it at the CSM because nobody believes CCP has any interest in doing anything about it.

Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp White Angels.	Posted - 2011.03.10 03:34:00 - [1671] Originally by: GM Grimmi We are aware of the evenews24 situation and the leaked list being discussed here. At this time we cannot comment on the information in focus but we would like to use this opportunity to remind everyone that buying ISK for real money is a violation of our EULA and anyone doing so risks getting the ISK removed and punitive action against their accounts, including possible permanent bans. While we would like to be more transparent about the methods and tools we use to fight RMT, botting and such in EVE we must maintain a level of secrecy in order to conduct successful operations. A presentation is scheduled at FanFest later this month where these matters will be discussed in some detail. So, apparently something is going to be done about bots... secret though. It would seem to be contradictory in that it is a secret plan and revealing it would defeat the purpose. Unless they implement it before, during, or immediately after fanfest. I don't know where, I don't know when... but something awful is going to happen xD
Bruce Kemp Minmatar screaming skulls	Posted - 2011.03.10 05:28:00 - [1672] Its too late baby. Originally by: Lady Spank Minmatar born, Minmatar bred, Strong in the arm, Thick in the head.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2011.03.10 07:23:00 - [1673] Originally by: Kireiina No one is going to kick up a fuss about it at the CSM because nobody believes CCP has any interest in doing anything about it. Hm, I'd phrase that differently: everyone believes that CCP is interested in doing nothing about it, since bots contribute much to PCU numbers and subscriptions, as well as their "legalized" RMT through PLEX. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.03.10 11:10:00 - [1674] Originally by: Burnharder So, who's going to kick up the biggest fuss about this? I was going to vote :p. /me looks at the masses.... Here he is, we've found the voter. /me forms a small gang, and commences to harang him.
0Lona 0ltor	Posted - 2011.03.10 13:38:00 - [1675] CCP is a disgrace. When is the next EVE convention in the UK I plan to go dressed as a bot/robot and **** all CCP persons off. Would be epic if we ruined a meeting and got in the game mags as a protest against CCP not tackling the bot problem.
moneykeeper	Posted - 2011.03.11 06:53:00 - [1676] Bump to stop CCP's strategy of ignore it and it will go away from working. Bots are why I dont have an industrial alt. For an industrial alt to make sense it needs to make more isk than selling a plex plus the isk that could make in that time running missions. I'm guessing there's quite a few people who would have indy alts if they were economically viable. But in this game only bot alts make sense. A dude with a hulk can't compete with a fleet of 6 mining bots working 24 hours per day. Nor can a pvper compete with people who have unlimited isk to spend on ships and fittings. In eve the only way is by botting. Doing anything else is foolish.
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2011.03.11 14:59:00 - [1677] Originally by: moneykeeper Bump to stop CCP's strategy of ignore it and it will go away from working. Bots are why I dont have an industrial alt. For an industrial alt to make sense it needs to make more isk than selling a plex plus the isk that could make in that time running missions. I'm guessing there's quite a few people who would have indy alts if they were economically viable. But in this game only bot alts make sense. A dude with a hulk can't compete with a fleet of 6 mining bots working 24 hours per day. Nor can a pvper compete with people who have unlimited isk to spend on ships and fittings. In eve the only way is by botting. Doing anything else is foolish. Your one extra account vs their 6... Can see why CCP like bots.... Tho the real damage comes from the 0.0 belt ratting bots, injecting pure isk into the economy. They devalue both your isk and drive plex prices up, also making faction stuff massivley overpriced. What is most annoying is 'old' CCP a few years ago (bitter vet checking in) would have cared about the quality of the game much more than the bottom line, and both done more and liased with the community more (tho the asshats in the community these days may have something to answer for here). As it is they have to keep Eve alive to fund WoD and DUST. Heres awaiting the much - touted fanfest report. Also: free bump. Why is this not on page 1?
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.03.11 16:06:00 - [1678] Edited by: riverini on 11/03/2011 16:06:28 title fixed...
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.03.11 16:14:00 - [1679] Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Originally by: moneykeeper Bump to stop CCP's strategy of ignore it and it will go away from working. Bots are why I dont have an industrial alt. For an industrial alt to make sense it needs to make more isk than selling a plex plus the isk that could make in that time running missions. I'm guessing there's quite a few people who would have indy alts if they were economically viable. But in this game only bot alts make sense. A dude with a hulk can't compete with a fleet of 6 mining bots working 24 hours per day. Nor can a pvper compete with people who have unlimited isk to spend on ships and fittings. In eve the only way is by botting. Doing anything else is foolish. Your one extra account vs their 6... Can see why CCP like bots.... Tho the real damage comes from the 0.0 belt ratting bots, injecting pure isk into the economy. They devalue both your isk and drive plex prices up, also making faction stuff massivley overpriced. What is most annoying is 'old' CCP a few years ago (bitter vet checking in) would have cared about the quality of the game much more than the bottom line, and both done more and liased with the community more (tho the asshats in the community these days may have something to answer for here). As it is they have to keep Eve alive to fund WoD and DUST. Heres awaiting the much - touted fanfest report. Also: free bump. Why is this not on page 1? You are WRONG, most of the botting is done in empire, we are releasing an article soon on that.
Veebring Greetings	Posted - 2011.03.11 17:18:00 - [1680] posting in an epic thread

CRA5HD0WN Caldari Antares Shipyards	Posted - 2011.03.11 19:36:00 - [1681] Over 9000 reads.
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2011.03.11 19:59:00 - [1682] Originally by: riverini Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Originally by: moneykeeper Quote pyramid You are WRONG, most of the botting is done in empire, we are releasing an article soon on that. Well if you use capslock, how can I possibly disagree? =P Will be interesting reading the article. Whilst more botting may be done in empire, I highly doubt the empire bots are pulling the 800mil+ per day per bot that the 0.0 ones are. Mining no chance, mission bots might make a more significant contribution however. Will await the new article with interest....
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.12 13:17:00 - [1683] Yeah I don't believe for one second that mission running bots (which are relatively new) are injecting anywhere near the amount of NEW isk that null ratbots do. I'm sure there's much more botting in empire but I don't believe it generates as much new isk. We'll see.
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.03.12 13:50:00 - [1684] Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 12/03/2011 13:52:09 Yes... however I bet that if someone would do some real math, the results could easily point to direction where amount of hisec bots would cover their smaller income / bot. In fact I bet that this is one of the issues where rmt wing / bot operators don't want our attention to turn into. We got to remember that running bot in hisec is after all, rather safe. How often you see ice/ore miners blown up... Yes hulkageddon is there but if you mine 23/7, losing one ship now and then doesn't change anything on yearly income of one bot. If you got 5-10 bots mining in some system 23/7 almost every day thru the entire year, there is some serious isk to be made. It is quite hilarious how some people always point finger only to 0.0, make this a political issue between some alliances or say that it's not that big of a deal... well it is. I don't know much about bots running combat/courier missions or bots doing market 0.01 pvp, but the ones doing mining have very serious impact on mineral prices. I can only wonder how big part from this goes to rmt market also. ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.12 14:01:00 - [1685] Yes but all of that is just moving EXISTING isk around. Yes thats where RMT is concentrated. NEW isk is what bolloxes what passes for an economy - just like IRL.
Valari Nala Zena Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2011.03.12 14:07:00 - [1686] Dunno what the market bots make, but i can imagine they prolly make the most, how do you even detect who is doing that?
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.12 14:25:00 - [1687] Originally by: Valari Nala Zena Dunno what the market bots make, but i can imagine they prolly make the most, how do you even detect who is doing that? Easily. Every time you modify a market order there is a 100 isk (IIRC) transaction charge. Even if CCP are unable to log every transaction charge it should be easy to see which characters are way above the normal level - and by "way above" I mean trading 23/7/365, not normal traders - who are pretty aggressive IME. Thats the problem a lot of us have with CCP - nobody is saying "you must eradicate 100% of bots" but its hard to understand how some bots (even if they're scamspam bots - Jita etc) still exist after all these years. Its not rocket science. The thing to remember is that while trade bots make their owners a shedload of isk they do NOT generate new isk. That comes from missions and npc bounties. Killing the bots which generate new isk should be CCPs #1 priority as it both screws up the economy and is essentially a free source of RL money for RMT companies. Then move onto the rest. We'll see but I'm not holding my breath.
Eternum Praetorian True Creation	Posted - 2011.03.12 15:52:00 - [1688] Won't a bot generate a completely "Robotic" sequence of key ins, all in the same order and duration, for an obscene amount of time? And wouldn't this "Signature" be completely different then the "Signature" of a human being sitting at the keyboard? Couldn't that easily be logged by the client?
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.12 16:07:00 - [1689] Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Won't a bot generate a completely "Robotic" sequence of key ins, all in the same order and duration, for an obscene amount of time? And wouldn't this "Signature" be completely different then the "Signature" of a human being sitting at the keyboard? Couldn't that easily be logged by the client? if you add a little random delay then it's hard to detect any patterns, or you would atleast get a very high amount of false positives.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.12 19:01:00 - [1690] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Won't a bot generate a completely "Robotic" sequence of key ins, all in the same order and duration, for an obscene amount of time? And wouldn't this "Signature" be completely different then the "Signature" of a human being sitting at the keyboard? Couldn't that easily be logged by the client? if you add a little random delay then it's hard to detect any patterns, or you would atleast get a very high amount of false positives. BS. In terms of market bots there is a clear trail of transaction charges. In terms of ratting bots there is a clear trail of bounties. You can't disguise that over the course of weeks. CCP may not have the resources to track ALL the indicators but they are going to have to up their game very soon - either that or Eve ends up with an even worse reputation for "exploiters". You CAN exploit in Eve. What you cannot do is hide the tracks of bots. If you can hide them reliably then Eve is ****ed - and so is anything else CCP does for it'll be a case of "oh that's the company which runs Eve, don't go near them".

dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.12 19:33:00 - [1691] Originally by: Othran Originally by: dexington Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Won't a bot generate a completely "Robotic" sequence of key ins, all in the same order and duration, for an obscene amount of time? And wouldn't this "Signature" be completely different then the "Signature" of a human being sitting at the keyboard? Couldn't that easily be logged by the client? if you add a little random delay then it's hard to detect any patterns, or you would atleast get a very high amount of false positives. In terms of market bots there is a clear trail of transaction charges. In terms of ratting bots there is a clear trail of bounties. The argument was that bots mimic human behaviour and if they loop the same input sequence over and over, all CCP needs to do is find one bot monitor it's behaviour and then would be able to detect all bots by looking for the same input sequence. It's has nothing to do with transaction trails...
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.12 19:45:00 - [1692] Originally by: dexington It's has nothing to do with transaction trails... Yeah whatever Mr Alt #2. Keep spinning. Nobody believes the BS anymore...
Freelanc3r H A V O C Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.03.12 22:09:00 - [1693] Hi riverini Look how dumb you are considering the NC are the biggest RMT buyers on iskbank, perhaps you should start with your own alliance then your coalition first.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.13 00:54:00 - [1694] I may have seen a bot today. Our fleet started setting up in a belt and someone warped into the middle and started mining. A bump and a question in local got no response. I started mining roids out from under him, using scanner to time the cycles so I get all the ore. Eventually he got enough himself and warped off. I expected that would be the last of him, if he was a player. But back he came, to the same spot. Eventually we mined out all the rids in his range and he left for good. Based on behavior it was either a very clueless player or a bot. It was not just a simple "timer" bot, he warped out right away when all roids in range were gone, so if a bot, it was screen scraping or reading client memory. Got him on the watchlist....
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.03.13 01:50:00 - [1695] You can go further than that. Please file at Report Bots. While it may seem futile, some folks like blowing them up ;)
Christos Hendez Warhamsters Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2011.03.13 03:30:00 - [1696] rabble rabble rabble RMT rabble rabble rabble ----- Russian \| English \| French AAA Diplomat WAR.H
Selinate Amarr Red Water Syndicate	Posted - 2011.03.13 05:34:00 - [1697] Oh thank god almighty, he finally changed "feed" to "fed". Thank you, riverini.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.13 08:52:00 - [1698] I see we finally scared off the CCP guy... guess I as right when I guessed he's ignore the issue like everyone else. Welcome to the company dude, now that you know how it works, looks like yer gonna fit right in. ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
CRA5HD0WN Caldari Antares Shipyards	Posted - 2011.03.13 09:24:00 - [1699] this can be solved effectively. Sansha incursion hot drop the bot miners.
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.03.13 09:51:00 - [1700] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira I see we finally scared off the CCP guy... guess I as right when I guessed he's ignore the issue like everyone else. Welcome to the company dude, now that you know how it works, looks like yer gonna fit right in. Well I bet they got little better things to do than sit on the forums every day and reply to everything we post here. ...like doing something to fix the actual problem that is. I can't see how he is ignoring the issue by promising more info to be released during fanfest. ...but perhaps you disagree. ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)

Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.03.13 10:02:00 - [1701] Just to quote here 1st post from [evenews24.com] iskbank.com exposed (Updated fri, 11. mar) so that we have here all important data. Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 12/03/2011 14:06:14 Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com exposed http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/09/in-isk-we-trust-iskbank-com-exposed-thousand-of-customers-outed/ Evenews24.com - Client list http://www.evenews24.com/2010/03/09/iskbank-com-client-list/ Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com/ru Client List: Revised Edition http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/11/iskbank-com-client-list-revised-edition/ Evenews24.com - official revised Iskbank customer list @ googledocs https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atu22IqpENk5dFMzMzAwWTdNX1lXelVpUUFlOWt0U1E&hl=en&authkey=CNK1-84L Evenews24.com article - Customers speak out http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/10/iskbank-com-customers-speak-out/ GM Grimmi's comment about the issue http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1479579&page=5#132 Related: CCP Sreegs posts about rmt, botting and upcoming announcements in fanfest. http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1426740/author/CCP%20Sreegs TenTonHammer article - The Daily Grind: Have you ever bought gold? http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/12/the-daily-grind-have-you-ever-bought-gold/ Elsewhere: Massively article - EVE ISK buyers outed in database leak http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/10/eve-isk-buyers-outed-in-database-leak/# Slashdot article - In Isk We Trust: the EVE Online IskBank Exposed http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/03/10/1712207/In-Isk-We-Trust-the-EVE-Online-IskBank-Exposed mmorpg.com article - EVE Online News - Iskbank.com Exposed http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/19890/Iskbankcom-Exposed TenTonHammer article - EVENews24 Exposes Iskbank Scandal, Thousands of Customers Outed http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/96325
Illwill Bill Reign of Anarchy	Posted - 2011.03.13 10:50:00 - [1702] On a side note, there seems to be some discussion about bans on this other forum. Apparently, there is some relation to the usage of snakes. If true, then GJ CCP! Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.13 12:47:00 - [1703] Originally by: Aquila Draco Massively article - EVE ISK buyers outed in database leak http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/10/eve-isk-buyers-outed-in-database-leak/# Slashdot article - In Isk We Trust: the EVE Online IskBank Exposed http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/03/10/1712207/In-Isk-We-Trust-the-EVE-Online-IskBank-Exposed mmorpg.com article - EVE Online News - Iskbank.com Exposed http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/19890/Iskbankcom-Exposed TenTonHammer article - EVENews24 Exposes Iskbank Scandal, Thousands of Customers Outed http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/96325 Heh 4 major games sites reporting on RMT, Botting and EvE. Can't be good for CCP's reputation. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.13 13:10:00 - [1704] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Heh 4 major games sites reporting on RMT, Botting and EvE. Can't be good for CCP's reputation. It gives them a bad reputation compared to what games?, most/all of the major mmo's have bot/RMT problems. Blizzzard spend most of the last expansion trying to fight hackers stealing gold from players and guilds, i've not played aion online but from what i've heard they also have huge problems with bots. It did'nt get publicity because it's a unique problem that only exists in eve, the incident got publicity because it's probably the first time a RMT site was hacked and the customer database leaked on the internet.
Ronan Astrum Caldari CRIMMSEN	Posted - 2011.03.13 15:19:00 - [1705] Originally by: Selinate Oh thank god almighty, he finally changed "feed" to "fed". Thank you, riverini. i thought the exact same thing
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2011.03.13 17:50:00 - [1706] Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Originally by: riverini Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217 Originally by: moneykeeper Quote pyramid You are WRONG, most of the botting is done in empire, we are releasing an article soon on that. Well if you use capslock, how can I possibly disagree? =P Will be interesting reading the article. Whilst more botting may be done in empire, I highly doubt the empire bots are pulling the 800mil+ per day per bot that the 0.0 ones are. Mining no chance, mission bots might make a more significant contribution however. Will await the new article with interest.... The easiest bot might be the trade bot. Sit in Jita and do nothing then check sell/buy orders of a croup of item. They have buy/sell limits and adjust the price by 0.01 ISK Cent every 4 minutes (CCP time limit). Most people will NEVER notice this bots as they never undock. And I bet there are a minimum of 100 just in Jita not counting all the other trade hubs.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.13 18:02:00 - [1707] I have an alt in Jita and traded against those. Its quite annoying. But I notice that the ones that update every 5 minutes are few and far between. I think most trading bot owners quickly learn to have it update once every few hours, better simulating a player, to make it much harder to detect.
Janos Saal	Posted - 2011.03.13 18:43:00 - [1708] I saw some botters by the asteroid belt recently. I steered clear of them! Disgusting creatures! I hope to never see another!
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.14 02:51:00 - [1709] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Infinity Ziona Heh 4 major games sites reporting on RMT, Botting and EvE. Can't be good for CCP's reputation. It gives them a bad reputation compared to what games?, most/all of the major mmo's have bot/RMT problems. Blizzzard spend most of the last expansion trying to fight hackers stealing gold from players and guilds, i've not played aion online but from what i've heard they also have huge problems with bots. It did'nt get publicity because it's a unique problem that only exists in eve, the incident got publicity because it's probably the first time a RMT site was hacked and the customer database leaked on the internet. It gives them a bad reputation because when people read those articles, they get linked to other articles, or are made aware of, the apathy and neglect that CCP has towards RMT and botters. CCP is rather unique in that they have painted themselves into a corner, where legal isk for cash, legal character transfers and illegal RMT and botting are all working together to prop up CCP. Where other games companies are actively working against RMT and botters, CCP is actively working with RMT and botters, even if its not an intentional thing, it is what it is. And lastly, any press is bad press, its highly likely that a person who is not a cheat, reading the article on EvE on those 4 sites, will decide against signing up, simply because they will have the impression that the game will be too hard without forking out rl cash or because they dislike cheating in games. So once again, yes, Bad Press for CCP. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.14 04:49:00 - [1710] Edited by: dexington on 14/03/2011 04:51:43 I think you are mostly expressing you personal opinion on RMT and how CCP is handling that problem, which right or wrong is not supported by the information in the news stories. The articles are all about the leaking of the iskbank customer database, and have really nothing to do with the RMT/bot problem of eve or the size of the problem. Originally by: Infinity Ziona It gives them a bad reputation because when people read those articles, they get linked to other articles, or are made aware of, the apathy and neglect that CCP has towards RMT and botters. Not one of the articles you refer to comments on what CCP does or does not do to stop RMT, or comment on the size of the problem within the eve universe. One article has the comment "CCP's response was the predictable "no comment" style approach, which is standard for most companies as they work to deal with RMT issues.", which make it seem like CCP is doing the same as every other company. Originally by: Infinity Ziona CCP is rather unique in that they have painted themselves into a corner, where legal isk for cash, legal character transfers and illegal RMT and botting are all working together to prop up CCP. Where other games companies are actively working against RMT and botters, CCP is actively working with RMT and botters, even if its not an intentional thing, it is what it is. I can't seem to find any support for this is any of the articles, i can be wrong be i don't recall seeing any comments on legal sale of isk or transfer of characters. Feel free to prove me wrong and point out where it's said that CCP is working with botters and RMT sites. Originally by: Infinity Ziona And lastly, any press is bad press, its highly likely that a person who is not a cheat, reading the article on EvE on those 4 sites, will decide against signing up, simply because they will have the impression that the game will be too hard without forking out rl cash or because they dislike cheating in games. So once again, yes, Bad Press for CCP. It's also said "There is no such thing as bad publicity". I think it's safe to assume that anyone reading the articles already playing an mmo, is playing one with just as many botters, hackers and cheaters. If someone is looking to try eve it's presumptious to assume they are going to change their mind because because a news story informs about RMT. Anyways this is just guessing, no of us know how or even if this is going to affect CCP/EVE.

Marconus Orion Global Criminal Countdown	Posted - 2011.03.14 05:43:00 - [1711] The Cylon invasion is getting out of hand.
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.03.14 05:49:00 - [1712] Just spent the day hanging out in a 0.9 sec system. Watched a fleet of bestowers run non-stop; same guys. No response to bumping, targeting, convo, etc. Checked the belts; the only two hulk pilots I found had no response to bumping, convo, identical warp-in patterns. No matter how much I bumped them back, they just pushing towards those 'roids. Pretty sickening to realize that in a system with 15 to 20 toons in it, I was the only one that wasn't a macro. While I realized that macros were in use, until I started looking around, I didn't realize how flagrant and widespread it was; hell these guys use names that were rolled off of an assembly line. There is no conceivable way that CCP can not be aware of the hot-spots. It is not like they are hard to find. Once again; disgusting and dispiriting.
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.14 06:01:00 - [1713] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Infinity Ziona Heh 4 major games sites reporting on RMT, Botting and EvE. Can't be good for CCP's reputation. It gives them a bad reputation compared to what games?, most/all of the major mmo's have bot/RMT problems. Blizzzard spend most of the last expansion trying to fight hackers stealing gold from players and guilds, i've not played aion online but from what i've heard they also have huge problems with bots. It gives them a bad reputation because the other companies you cited are actively fighting against that behavior instead of condoning it (if not enabling it) like CCP does.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.14 07:33:00 - [1714] Edited by: dexington on 14/03/2011 07:34:22 Originally by: AkJon Ferguson It gives them a bad reputation because the other companies you cited are actively fighting against that behavior instead of condoning it (if not enabling it) like CCP does. Blizzard has the most played mmo in the world and they have just as many problems with bots, and alot more problems with account getting hacked. It got bad in TBC and alot worse in WOTLK, i stopped playing wow in the last weeks of WOTLK and the situation was pretty much this, people where complaining that they received scam emails, scam messages in-game, accounts hacked cleaned out and used as bots, bots being active weeks after they had been reported, and the list goes on. The trade channel was constantly filled with spam from RMT sites, and RMT sites even used exploits to make character float in the air so they could use them to make animated 3D advertisements in the major cities. People reporting bots by name had their threads closed by admins for breaking the naming and shaming rules, and if treads got a response it was always something like "we are working on the problem.". If they are actively fighting bots and rmt it have had no effect for the previous 2 expansions where things just got worse and worse, the only reason things seem better in wow is because they don't have the same player driven market as eve.
pcydo	Posted - 2011.03.14 15:14:00 - [1715] Free bump because bots are still there.
000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2011.03.14 18:04:00 - [1716] Originally by: Cyrus Doul ibtl Hehe i had to post this beauty.. post number 2... Boy were u wrong! but back on topic... personally i'd like to see the gtc for isk thing go away as well, way too easy to abuse your daddies platinum card and get a leg up in eve... ________________________________________________
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.03.14 22:15:00 - [1717] Originally by: riverini Edited by: riverini on 11/03/2011 16:06:28 title fixed... noooooo... that was a feature of this thread... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.14 23:22:00 - [1718] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: DonHel Is there any way to report bots and actually have something done, or do we have to watch them do it everyday and just live with it. And just occasionally pop their hulks/covetors/retrievers and watch thier pods warp back n forth? I have been watching someones bots for like 10 days now, and am planning to gank them to hell everyday for a bit. But it's in a 0.8 so i can only do it so much before i become an eveil pirate dude bieng shot at by gate guns n such lol Part of what we're trying to get done is achieving precisely this. As I said, solving the problem has multiple angles to it, one of which is being able to properly follow through and action on reports by players and on top of that repeat offenders. It's not to say there's not some of this going on today but it could be done a lot better. We have a solution to that and as soon as we're ready to implement (like REALLY soon) I'll let you guys know. Hey Sreegs, First, welcome to CCP and welcome to one heck of a grumble and gripe session on behalf of human players. I sincerely appreciate you taking time out of your day to read and respond to many of the concerns that have been raised here in this thread. Your contributions to this thread, to CCP and to solving the problem are welcomed and encouraged. For some time now we have asked CCP for a 'right-click -> report bot' kind of solution. Lacking that, as you may know, I implemented a website (www.reportbots.com) to aid players in filing the petitions CCP can then use to help resolve the problems in whatever ways they can. Having worked with the GMs to ascertain their needs and continually working with the players to ascertain their needs, I came up with the best solution I could not working for CCP myself ;) I'm presuming from your responses here that all will be revealed (well, 'all' being relative lol) at and after fanfest. I look forward to finding out the steps CCP are taking and how we, as players, may be able to help reinforce the initiative CCP puts forth. I have noticed an elevated response by CCP to this problem in a more general way recently - in short many of the bots being reported are being taken seriously and many of them have gone away from the game for days and weeks now. So, Kudos to CCP for producing some results I can see. As you yourself have stated this isn't a problem that came about overnight and I think we all understand it isn't a problem that will go away overnight either. It's a cat and mouse game - and you're the cat (unless, of course, you prefer to squeak)! :) That being said, I also want to note that your presence here in the forums, while not a paid activity of your position with CCP, is very sincerely appreciated. As a new(er) member of CCP and one of the few to ever respond in a real way to this problem, you, unfortunately, are getting the brunt of frustration some players have been expressing for years, all rolled down into one post ;) Please forgive us if we offend you - our frustration is not with you, per se, it is with CCP and the (apparent) lack of commitment from them. Your presence at CCP, and the presence of a team of security professionals working on the bot and exploit problem is, at long last, reassuring to those of us whose fists of rage are yet not enough to rid the universe of the scummy underbelly that has invaded it. In short... keep up the great work bud! And hurry up with a right-click -> report bot solution eh? I have other things I could be doing with that web space and domain... err... not sure what... reportbots.com is kinda specific after all... but I'll come up with something ;) lol. I look forward to reading and hearing more from your team and CCP on how they will address this problem moving forward. Thank you for your efforts to both quell the growing tide of disdain and to help us to help you to help CCP rid this otherwise awesome game of it's scourge.
Kireiina	Posted - 2011.03.15 02:37:00 - [1719] Originally by: Freelanc3r Hi riverini Look how dumb you are considering the NC are the biggest RMT buyers on iskbank, perhaps you should start with your own alliance then your coalition first. If they are buying isk they are probably not botting. If they are buying isk the only person who should really care is CCP because they're not getting their cut compared to the legal way of buying isk. The problem is the bots that generated that Isk and generated game-breaking amounts of resources making it pointless for human players to compete.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.15 03:42:00 - [1720] Originally by: Consortium Agent A big post that I can't quote :( Hey guy thanks for the kind words. I didn't run away from the thread or anything there's just A) Only so much to say at the moment with Fanfest a week or so away B) A lot more of you guys than there are of me C) I was traveling last week which minimizes my posting time I was aware of your site and found it very useful from a few perspectives that if I don't remember to mention at Fanfest I'll be happy to discuss with you in person if you're attending. If not just bump the thread after or post in the dev blog and I'll get into some more detail.



CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.15 03:45:00 - [1721] Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 15/03/2011 03:45:55 Originally by: 0Lona 0ltor CCP is a disgrace. When is the next EVE convention in the UK I plan to go dressed as a bot/robot and **** all CCP persons off. Would be epic if we ruined a meeting and got in the game mags as a protest against CCP not tackling the bot problem. I will buy a beer for the first person I see dressed as a robot at Fanfest. (not because you're mad but because I like robots)

Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.15 04:51:00 - [1722] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Consortium Agent A big post that I can't quote :( Hey guy thanks for the kind words. I didn't run away from the thread or anything there's just A) Only so much to say at the moment with Fanfest a week or so away B) A lot more of you guys than there are of me C) I was traveling last week which minimizes my posting time I was aware of your site and found it very useful from a few perspectives that if I don't remember to mention at Fanfest I'll be happy to discuss with you in person if you're attending. If not just bump the thread after or post in the dev blog and I'll get into some more detail. Sadly I have a prior commitment to teach an Adobe OOP code camp this month so I will be unable to attend fanfest :( Sad panda. I'd have dressed like a robot (plastered with reportbots.com, ofc) just for the beer too! lol I'll hit ya up after fanfest and get the details if you don't mention them elsewhere. Thanks again!
PC l0adletter	Posted - 2011.03.15 07:46:00 - [1723] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Consortium Agent A big post that I can't quote :( Hey guy thanks for the kind words. I didn't run away from the thread or anything there's just A) Only so much to say at the moment with Fanfest a week or so away B) A lot more of you guys than there are of me C) I was traveling last week which minimizes my posting time I was aware of your site and found it very useful from a few perspectives that if I don't remember to mention at Fanfest I'll be happy to discuss with you in person if you're attending. If not just bump the thread after or post in the dev blog and I'll get into some more detail. Heya, Sreegs, Can you comment on the six bots in ETO-OT, Spire, that have been merrily logged in 23/7? They were petitioned and discussed over a month ago in the EN24 article. Here's the screenshot with the names: http://evenews24.com/riverini/other_guys/fromage/2011.02.06.05.59.jpg They're still there, farming away.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.15 08:24:00 - [1724] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 15/03/2011 08:31:24 Originally by: PC l0adletter Heya, Sreegs, Can you comment on the six bots in ETO-OT, Spire, that have been merrily logged in 23/7? They were petitioned and discussed over a month ago in the EN24 article. Here's the screenshot with the names: http://evenews24.com/riverini/other_guys/fromage/2011.02.06.05.59.jpg They're still there, farming away. Looking at his prior posts he probably does not care. ... at least not in the way you want him to care. 5 bots are just a drop in the ocean and how does manually banning them solve the problem of botting? it doesn't. A few days ago I spent about 30 minutes to write a Python script that solved a task I could have done manually in 5-10 minutes. It even is relatively unlikely I will have to do the same task again in the near future (as the task was fairly specialized) but now I feel like I have truly "solved" the problem (I even included error handling for errors that I knew would not happen in that one specialized set of data) whereas doing the same stuff manually would have felt like a cheap workaround. Of course you can spend a lot of man-hours on investigating and banning bots manually but as long as you think you have a good idea how to automate this process you won't - and from a purely technical perspective it doesn't really matter whether you need 1 week, 1 month or half a year to implement this solution as long as you know that it can be done. Throwing bandaids at the problem might provide some temporary relief but it won't solve the problem at all - so why bother spending your resources on the development of bandaids when you can spend the same time on the development of a solution? Now you will bring up tons of reasonable arguments about banning these bots having a high symbolic value, of EVE bleeding to death before a solution can be found if no bandaids are applied in time, ... but it is not my purpose to convince anyone that the approach outlined above is the right one to take, I just want to illustrate a certain train of thought that tends to be very popular with programmers (imo partly due to them often having a strong maths/applied maths/CS background). If I look at the problem of botting I see three main challenges: (a) create gameplay incentives that discourage botting (b) identify bots (c) link bots to larger botting/RMT operations (a) is the job of the game designers (c) does probably involve a lot of manual work (that is assisted by automated auditing tools). (b) is an interesting challenge. You can either concentrate on automated identification of bots or you can concentrate on handling reports by players in the most efficient manner possible (you can't do everything at once as resources are always limited). In my pipe dreams I would want to design a system that takes reports from players, looks for any patterns in the reported character's actions (much, much harder than it sounds), if it finds any "meaningful" (but what would make them meaningful?) patterns compares these to its set of already known patterns and if new "learns" them to use them in its own automated scanning sweeps for bot activity. (With different patterns having different weights based on GM experience, analysis of bots and prevalence of these patterns in user reports). Humans (players, GMs) are really good at pattern detection but using humans for detection is a solution that won't scale all that well (automated solution: high initial investment but low marginal cost). ... but that's just my rather lengthy 2 cents.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.15 08:36:00 - [1725] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein 5 bots are just a drop in the ocean and how does manually banning them solve the problem of botting? it doesn't. I think the point is that these bots have been petitioned multiple times and are still there. As things stand it does NOT appear possible to get a bot permabanned unless they're involved in RMT. That's the problem. Whats the point in petitioning when the "punishment" is nothing more than a temporary inconvenience? That's why botting in Eve is endemic and it will continue to be so until running a bot is viewed as something more than a minor infraction of the rules.
ArtieLange	Posted - 2011.03.15 10:51:00 - [1726] Did that AFK cloaking alliance ever kick off? I've got an alt I will never use for anything productive that's now in a cov-ops. I might be tempted to sit griefing people all day.
Erick Odin Amarr Local-Spike	Posted - 2011.03.15 11:17:00 - [1727] tbh all you guys in highsec making billions is total safety resemble bots to me. just saying.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.15 11:25:00 - [1728] Originally by: Erick Odin tbh all you guys in highsec making billions is total safety resemble bots to me. just saying. 0/10
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.15 12:13:00 - [1729] the Bot University page on eveBots is wholly inaccurate. all of these items have even been gone over multiple times in this very thread. but, lets do it again... (sigh) * This character is mining ore/ice from the time the server comes up until the time the server goes down. YES! this is the ticket item. while some people may play for many hours on occasion, a high frequency of 23/7 play is a definite. * This character exhibits no response to being bumped by my ship. NO! most real players mine AFK. one only needs to interact with their mining character every few minutes at most, every 10 minutes at least. so bumping chars proves nothing. * This character refuses to accept chat requests. NO! people mine solo b/c they don't feel like being bothered. especially by random people. plus, as mentioned above, people mine AFK. so not accepting you're chat goes hand in hand. i even have a high (like 5m) charge to email me.... * This character warps away (usually to another belt) when approached. NO! there are so many pirates and griefers out there that real players will do the same. * This character mines only one or two types of ore. NO! mining crystals force people to only mine one or two things. * This character only mines high yielding ores like dense, massive, etc. NO! i would ponder that this is more likely a trait of real players than bots - as bots would need OCR to pick out the good stuff. possible, but regardless real players tend to focus on the higher yield stuff as well. * This character repeatedly warps to empty belts. NO! if you're talking the same belt over and over, then yeah; though it may be someone not really paying attention to what they are doing (playing afk). but merely going to a number of empty belts is more a matter of trying to find a good place to mine. further, i really can't see bots not keeping track of which belts it found to be empty - its not like that would be hard to do. * This character is part of a larger group of bots that do not mine together. MAYBE! if you see a number of miners from the same corp all solo mining... then maybe. but this may be that they aren't big in splitting in their profits (you still mine the same amount whether in a group or not, difference is in a group you are depending on others to pay as much or more attention to match what would have been your solo profit) and only group mine during corp ops... note: i know some genius will come along and say "you earn more while fleet boosted" or something equally *****ed... the answer: you can be fleet boosted but not mining in a group. This character repeats a cycle of mining in one belt, returning to station, and then mining in a different belt. NO! if it weren't for pirates then i would call this a maybe. but when solo mining you don't drop cans, you go back to the station... at which point who cares which belt they go back to? they;re all the same... and if playing semi-afk you probably don't care to keep track either. so.... you have one right, all the rest could merely be real people mining semi-afk. so at best you have a list of "could be a bot, but is just as likely to be a real player." short of 23/7 game play at least. I just hope that your site opens your eyes to how difficult it actually is to find real bots...
Erick Odin Amarr Local-Spike	Posted - 2011.03.15 12:27:00 - [1730] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Erick Odin tbh all you guys in highsec making billions is total safety resemble bots to me. just saying. 0/10 dude don't post your killboard stats here nobody cares

Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.15 12:40:00 - [1731] * This character is always online fighting PVE rats from server up to server down. * This character always docks up or logs off whenever a neutral enters the system. * This character fails to respond to requests for chat. * This character gets stuck in warp bubbles I've placed in their suspected area of operation. * This character remains in the same system from the time they log on until the time they log off. * This character is part of a larger group of characters who fight NPC bots but in largely different locations. this sounds about like every nullsec alliance out there. again, only definite here is playing 23/7 .... as for the hualers... i've never been a hauler so i don't know. but i did notice something contradictory: in one point you say they run hauler missions, but then you say they don't create nor accept any contracts.. if you're running missions you're not accepting contracts. not sure what these two have to do with each other. and what does amarr have to do with haulers? really, i'm asking.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.15 12:48:00 - [1732] Edited by: Othran on 15/03/2011 12:50:00 On detection of ratbots (ratting bots) : I don't really understand what the "technical issue" is here. Every time you kill a rat you get a bounty and/or sec standing increase. Now I know that sec status only goes to +5 these days but there's no reason why the increases couldn't be logged if required. So as a first pass to filtering who's potentially running a ratbot you run a monthly check of total bounties per day/week on the playerbase. I'm assuming that data can be easily extracted by CCP and used "offline". Once your automated filter pulls out the top 5% of bounty earners then you enable logging of sec standing increases for those players (or ratbots). A week or so of data will show whether its a normal human being or not. Edit - obviously bounties wouldn't work for drone regions, but TBH they need attention anyway - both in the sense of ratbots and in the sense of being horrible places to live. Now you've got a list of people who are either botting or account sharing. If its account sharing then that should be fairly easy to identify as the same peaks/troughs of rats killed will appear over time - or IP addresses/login times. This is the point CCP should be handing the list to your senior GMs and get them to go have a look at how the player/ratbot behaves when something that isn't blue comes into system. Its not rocket science. It does require a willingness to enforce the rules though. Fanfest isn't far off anyway so we'll see whether that willingness exists.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.15 13:01:00 - [1733] Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 15/03/2011 12:50:00 On detection of ratbots (ratting bots) : I don't really understand what the "technical issue" is here. Every time you kill a rat you get a bounty and/or sec standing increase. Now I know that sec status only goes to +5 these days but there's no reason why the increases couldn't be logged if required. So as a first pass to filtering who's potentially running a ratbot you run a monthly check of total bounties per day/week on the playerbase. I'm assuming that data can be easily extracted by CCP and used "offline". Once your automated filter pulls out the top 5% of bounty earners then you enable logging of sec standing increases for those players (or ratbots). A week or so of data will show whether its a normal human being or not. Edit - obviously bounties wouldn't work for drone regions, but TBH they need attention anyway - both in the sense of ratbots and in the sense of being horrible places to live. Now you've got a list of people who are either botting or account sharing. If its account sharing then that should be fairly easy to identify as the same peaks/troughs of rats killed will appear over time - or IP addresses/login times. This is the point CCP should be handing the list to your senior GMs and get them to go have a look at how the player/ratbot behaves when something that isn't blue comes into system. Its not rocket science. It does require a willingness to enforce the rules though. Fanfest isn't far off anyway so we'll see whether that willingness exists. It would be easy to spot 1 bot running for 23 hours, but how would you spot 10 bots running for 2.3 hours each?. Aslong as gametime is payed with isk it don't really matter for botters if they need to pay 300M or 3B a months, the bots are still going to make a huge profit.
ArtieLange	Posted - 2011.03.15 13:38:00 - [1734] Originally by: Othran Its not rocket science. It does require a willingness to enforce the rules though. Therein lies the issue.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.15 14:29:00 - [1735] Originally by: dexington It would be easy to spot 1 bot running for 23 hours, but how would you spot 10 bots running for 2.3 hours each?. Aslong as gametime is payed with isk it don't really matter for botters if they need to pay 300M or 3B a months, the bots are still going to make a huge profit. You know this continual "don't do anything for that's not going to work" approach from you is making you look REALLY bad don't you? I hope you're aware of that even if you are an alt. This is the last time I bother replying to you, life's too short Anyway the 10 botters run by one guy are probably RMT. As such you can be sure CCP will have thought of ways as RMT is their (current) sole focus. What I suggested would be enough to catch people who leave their bot running while they work, then log onto main for the evening. If those people then have to resort to multiple accounts then it makes running the accounts a lot harder. I think honest players would welcome that.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.15 14:47:00 - [1736] If you can't handle critique the internet is a dangerous place to post your ideas, not everyone will agree that half measures is a solid solution. I only pointed out an obvious and easy to exploit weakness in your plan, i never say that nothing should or should not be done.
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.15 17:31:00 - [1737] Originally by: Othran You know this continual "don't do anything for that's not going to work" approach from you is making you look REALLY bad don't you? I hope you're aware of that even if you are an alt. This is the last time I bother replying to you, life's too short Anyway the 10 botters run by one guy are probably RMT. As such you can be sure CCP will have thought of ways as RMT is their (current) sole focus. What I suggested would be enough to catch people who leave their bot running while they work, then log onto main for the evening. If those people then have to resort to multiple accounts then it makes running the accounts a lot harder. I think honest players would welcome that. 1. someone poking holes in your ideas does not make them look bad. passing thoughts around like this are good IMO. but on the other hand they serve as a potential resource for the bot writers on how to avoid detection...... 2. people botting for 8 hours a day would not equal being top of that list. further, at a straight shot, a mothership ratting for a few hours a day would likely end up higher on your list than a bot running 23/7. cross reference highest earner with those who played the most and you're likely on to something. but still not accurate nor inclusive.. at least an approach..
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.03.15 23:24:00 - [1738] As topic regarding ISK-bank is redirecting all further posts to here now... bump... and quote last version of first post in that topic... Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 15/03/2011 22:42:48 RMT and botting related discussion is now continuing on this thread. Please try not to reply here anymore. Thank you :) Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 14/03/2011 08:39:13 Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com exposed http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/09/in-isk-we-trust-iskbank-com-exposed-thousand-of-customers-outed/ Evenews24.com - Client list http://www.evenews24.com/2010/03/09/iskbank-com-client-list/ Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com/ru Client List: Revised Edition http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/11/iskbank-com-client-list-revised-edition/ Evenews24.com - official revised Iskbank customer list @ googledocs https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Atu22IqpENk5dFMzMzAwWTdNX1lXelVpUUFlOWt0U1E&hl=en&authkey=CNK1-84L Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com: The Vadim Interview http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/14/iskbank-com-the-vadim-interview/ Evenews24.com article - Customers speak out http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/10/iskbank-com-customers-speak-out/ GM Grimmi's comment about the issue http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1479579&page=5#132 Related: CCP Sreegs posts about rmt, botting and upcoming announcements in fanfest. http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1426740/author/CCP%20Sreegs TenTonHammer article - The Daily Grind: Have you ever bought gold? http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/12/the-daily-grind-have-you-ever-bought-gold/ Evenews24.com article - Iskbank.com Exposed: CSM Candidates Respond http://www.evenews24.com/2011/03/14/iskbank-com-exposed-csm-candidates-respond/ Elsewhere: Massively article - EVE ISK buyers outed in database leak http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/03/10/eve-isk-buyers-outed-in-database-leak/# Slashdot article - In Isk We Trust: the EVE Online IskBank Exposed http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/03/10/1712207/In-Isk-We-Trust-the-EVE-Online-IskBank-Exposed mmorpg.com article - EVE Online News - Iskbank.com Exposed http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/19890/Iskbankcom-Exposed TenTonHammer article - EVENews24 Exposes Iskbank Scandal, Thousands of Customers Outed http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/96325
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.16 02:49:00 - [1739] Originally by: Arnakoz Edited by: Arnakoz on 15/03/2011 12:40:44 the Bot University page on reportBots is wholly inaccurate. all of these items have even been gone over multiple times in this very thread. but, lets do it again... (sigh) Let's not. Either you didn't read any of my posts in this forum or you didn't read the entire university page, but in either case let me address your question thusly: You are treating each individual item as exactly that - an individual item. It is not one individual item but the combination of behaviors exhibited by these bots that make them so detectable. Furthermore, your post assumes I am instructing people to make judgments in a given amount of time, which I'm not. Patterns of behaviors make take minutes, hours or days to verify depending on the complexity of the bot, but they are virtually unmistakable once you see the patterns. Humans do not operate in the same way bots do, and I will not argue the merits of pattern detection over your list of reasons why you feel all of the behaviors being exhibited are wholly inaccurate. In short, the university page clearly indicates it is patterns of behavior one should be observing, not one particular activity which amounts to a smoking gun. Even being on 23/7 isn't always a good indicator - for one, I tend to fall asleep with my game running (cuz I'm just that much of a geek to fall asleep playing Eve!) - for another I've had times where I've been able to play damn near 23/7. So, yes, there is a counter-argument to be made for each and every single behavior or activity I'm instructing people to be aware of, but I'm also clearly stating that it is the patterns of behavior which give away the bots, not any one single behavior. Take your list and combine them into activities being exhibited by one single player, repeatedly, with a visible pattern, over time, and then make your arguments again :) For what it's worth, the system won't even take a report unless it meets a certain criteria of behaviors. If the behaviors selected don't pass the mustard, the user is notified and given a link to the university page to learn more about how to spot bots. So, thanks for taking my bulleted items and reposting them here for me ;) Now please go read the words in-between them for the full picture.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.16 03:05:00 - [1740] Originally by: Arnakoz * This character is always online fighting PVE rats from server up to server down. * This character always docks up or logs off whenever a neutral enters the system. * This character fails to respond to requests for chat. * This character gets stuck in warp bubbles I've placed in their suspected area of operation. * This character remains in the same system from the time they log on until the time they log off. * This character is part of a larger group of characters who fight NPC bots but in largely different locations. this sounds about like every nullsec alliance out there. again, only definite here is playing 23/7 .... as for the hualers... i've never been a hauler so i don't know. but i did notice something contradictory: in one point you say they run hauler missions, but then you say they don't create nor accept any contracts.. if you're running missions you're not accepting contracts. not sure what these two have to do with each other. and what does amarr have to do with haulers? really, i'm asking. More no reading between the lines here. See my earlier post for an answer to your first question. As for the haulers - it's very simple. Most human haulers make use of the contract system either for purchasing or selling items, or more likely to accept and complete courier contracts. If they are not creating or accepting any contracts, this can be a good indicator of a toon which may be using a bot when combined with the other behaviors, such as running missions 23/7, etc. in a repetitive pattern. What does Amarr have to do with haulers? Another good, but simply answered question. Please take a look at all of the different faction haulers and tell me which one you would be most likely to choose to run L1 - L4 missions 23/7 in, and why. That will probably answer your question better than me just telling you that Amarr haulers are the most convenient for that purpose. And when you're done with all of that... take a fly down to Kronsur (it's in empire). Spend a little time in the system. Tell me how many of those toons you see flying in and out of there back to back to back that you think are bots based on the behaviors I've listed on the university page. How do you know? And lastly, nobody has ever said there isn't a chance for false positives - there is, however, things I have done and that CCP most likely does, to weed out the 'maybe-not-really-a-bot' from the 'omfg-most-definitely-a-bot' reports. No system is 100% accurate in this regard, and with human judgment comes human errors... but with the measures I've put in place... I can sleep at night knowing the chances of a false positive are slim. :) Humans are the best pattern recognition machines ever built. No computer can beat us at it. So, until one does - it will always take human judgment based on the repetitive patterns of behavior exhibited by these bots to find them, report them, petition them and, with any luck, gank them back to the stone age before CCP lays the hammer down on them :)

X201207 Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.16 04:08:00 - [1741] I'm tired and I'm not going to take it anymore! Internet space ships
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.16 04:41:00 - [1742] Originally by: ArtieLange Did that AFK cloaking alliance ever kick off? I've got an alt I will never use for anything productive that's now in a cov-ops. I might be tempted to sit griefing people all day. Nah. CCP made some changes to the netcode that means I can no longer play EvE at Australian prime time. So I cancelled the AFK cloaker thing till they fix it, which will be never apparently. Hoping that somebody that can actually play will pick it up and do it though. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
ArtieLange	Posted - 2011.03.16 12:03:00 - [1743] Edited by: ArtieLange on 16/03/2011 12:03:42 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: ArtieLange Did that AFK cloaking alliance ever kick off? I've got an alt I will never use for anything productive that's now in a cov-ops. I might be tempted to sit griefing people all day. Nah. CCP made some changes to the netcode that means I can no longer play EvE at Australian prime time. So I cancelled the AFK cloaker thing till they fix it, which will be never apparently. Hoping that somebody that can actually play will pick it up and do it though. Bah, well that's a bunch of ***** batter. I might still send a ship out to afk-grief afk people. Edit - do you think they made these changes so that you couldn't interfere with the paying botters? O_o
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.03.16 13:03:00 - [1744] Edited by: Arnakoz on 16/03/2011 13:04:58 Originally by: Consortium Agent Let's not. Either you didn't read any of my posts in this forum or you didn't read the entire university page, but in either case let me address your question thusly: . . . EDIT: There is only one sure fire way to know if the toon is a bot... gank them. If they continue to fly around in a pod, unencumbered by the lack of a ship (mining bots warping to belts in a pod, haulers continue on to the end point of the mission... and return, etc. etc.) - chances are pretty good it's a bot ;P lol If they scream and holler and say WTF! in local - then pay them for their ship, thank them for their time and go gank another suspect ;P lol you made my point exactly. and i read the entirety of the university page, and noted the part of While not all of these behaviors are exhibited by all miner bot programs, careful observation of their behaviors over time will demonstrate which of these behaviors they regularly exhibit with enough regularity to form a pattern. It is the regularly timed pattern of behavior that generally gives away the fact that the character is indeed a miner bot. my point still remains: even combining a large number of your criteria is about as likely to be a real player as it is to be a bot - take all the traits that i list as being a matter of "afk player" - it is most of your points - and an afk player IS going to exhibit those traits because afk is afk. so unless "plays 23/7" is checked the chances are of it being a bot are about as good as having flipped a coin. moreover i think it is misleading: players will read it and start to think that every miner/hauler/ratter they see is a bot, b/c it exhibits some or many of those traits. "plays 23/7" and "continues as if still in a ship" are the only two traits i would say make it more than likely a bot. the rest, even combo's of the rest, lacking one of those two, is mere guess work. using you're own example: To determine if you've got a miner bot on your hand is easy enough to do. Start by requesting a chat with the suspected bot character. While this is not always a smoking gun, as we ourselves may tend to ignore chat requests from folks we don't know or don't trust, but it's a good jumping off point. If they fail to respond on multiple occasions, then the probability of them being a mining bot goes up. If they fail to respond to your chat request, fly to within a couple thousand meters of their ship (2000m) - if they immediately stop mining and warp off, usually in the direction of another belt, then the chances of you looking at a bot are high. ... [plus other miners in corp.] when i mined i did so afk - looking at my mains screen mostly, and only checking the alts screen every few minutes. I got tired of people convo'ing/emailing asking me if i wanted to join their corp (they may have been testing if i were a bot, now that i think about it) so i set both to autoreject. which was equally true for local... didn't care, didn't look. and if/when i happened to notice ships approaching me i warped the hell away! ... why else would they approach if not to kill me? further i had other corp mates that had hi-sec mining alts, who likely played just the same as me since they were afk as well. sometimes we mined in the same system, sometimes we didn't. but mining in a group was pointless; so we didn't. so you would have pegged me as a bot. and my corp mates. and i would imagine every other REAL miner out there. all i'm saying is that giving a list of such broadly scoped items, with a high chance of overlap, is not a good idea if you really intend to fight bots; as it will merely flood CCP with more non-bots to check, and enrage those players who are now certain that it was a bot and it didn't get banned (they did verify it with reportbots.com afterall! so it MUST be!) ... So give better examples, like the one about hauling in a pod, that was good. maybe ask CCP to give you lists that they think are good!
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:12:00 - [1745] I wonder if moving L4 to lowsec would help to curv the misison bot issue.. ? same for better rat intel, nothing Sansha/Sleeper like, but something that throws some challenge...
Clea Vage	Posted - 2011.03.16 18:32:00 - [1746] Originally by: riverini I wonder if moving L4 to lowsec would help to curv the misison bot issue.. ? same for better rat intel, nothing Sansha/Sleeper like, but something that throws some challenge... 1. That'd **** off a lot of players. 2. I'm 99% sure mission bots do L5 in low sec atm. Not sure how your proposal would affect anything, other than making LP worth more money since regular players might be reluctant to do them there.
Alekseyev Karrde Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.03.16 19:53:00 - [1747] To the top. Here's hoping for some signifigant meat on the annoucement at FanFest ---
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.16 21:50:00 - [1748] Originally by: Arnakoz all i'm saying is that giving a list of such broadly scoped items, with a high chance of overlap, is not a good idea if you really intend to fight bots; as it will merely flood CCP with more non-bots to check, and enrage those players who are now certain that it was a bot and it didn't get banned (they did verify it with reportbots.com afterall! so it MUST be!) ... So give better examples, like the one about hauling in a pod, that was good. maybe ask CCP to give you lists that they think are good! CCP, like me, is not divulging all of the information we use to ascertain who is and who is not a bot. Furthermore, the terms and behaviors are broadly defined on purpose. Reportbots.com is merely a tool to assist users in finding and reporting bots to CCP and walks a fine line between indicating behaviors that are known dead give-away's and behaviors which are shared by players. Most of what the player gets to indicate is one thing, but what the system does on the back-end is another. Combined they isolate accuracy far better than you will ever know not having written the back-end. :) If you lump all of your behaviors together and then watch those behaviors over time you'll see one overarching thing is different between human players and bots. Bots repeat the same steps over and over and over again very dutifully. They don't take breaks, they (typically) don't forget to turn on their lasers (as afk miners tend to do) and they repeat the same exact behaviors over and over and over. Humans have a certain chaos to them that a computer just can't match - human processes are random and chaotic, bot processes are serial (one after the other) or parallel (at the same time), and no amount of randomizing the behaviors can mimic a human player - there will always be a pattern that emerges, because random() in computer terms is never very random at all - and I don't think bot authors want to kill their bots coding chaos theory into them (in short there isn't enough computer power). So, I do appreciate your concerns, and if you could tell me more about what you believe will make the university clearer to people like you who don't already have a perspective on the repetitive patterns of behavior exhibited by bots, I'll be more than happy to take your suggestions into consideration. ;)
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.16 21:54:00 - [1749] Originally by: riverini I wonder if moving L4 to lowsec would help to curv the misison bot issue.. ? same for better rat intel, nothing Sansha/Sleeper like, but something that throws some challenge... Nope. Hauler bots run the gauntlet (low and nullsec travel) all the time. Just check the killboards. Though it may dissuade some from going there - that still leaves plenty of L1 - L3's in high-sec, and they're still rewarding enough when you do them back to back to back 23/7, especially if you're running a fleet of bots like most of these guys tend to do. And, the loss of a hauler is a) not a big enough deterrent and b) not very costly if you're running a dead clone whose only purpose is to make you ISK while you're off doing something else ;)
Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp White Angels.	Posted - 2011.03.17 00:02:00 - [1750] Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde To the top. Here's hoping for some signifigant meat on the annoucement at FanFest I just want to see that they have an automated program almost ready to go for scanning through server data to find botting patterns/activity. I'm not sure where but I heard they are enhancing the reporting section so people can report bots more easily. Most likely the enhanced reporting feature will mean it will work in conjunction with the automated program to quickly get rid of the more obvious bots. Can't wait for the weekend, should be interesting. I don't know where, I don't know when... but something awful is going to happen xD

Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.17 00:36:00 - [1751] Originally by: Arnakoz i read the entirety of the university page, and noted the part of While not all of these behaviors are exhibited by all miner bot programs, careful observation of their behaviors over time will demonstrate which of these behaviors they regularly exhibit with enough regularity to form a pattern. It is the regularly timed pattern of behavior that generally gives away the fact that the character is indeed a miner bot. One more thought, and to help clarify for everyone else who reads this thread but doesn't go read the university page, it also states this (among many other things - spelling errors inclusive <g> lol): All bots share some similar behaviors. They are online from the time the servers come online to the next time the go into maintenance. They fail to respond to multiple requests for chat. They typically stay in one solar system, with the exception of courier bots who generally stay within the same handful of constellations where missions take them. They generally come in multiples of bots, because why run just one, etc. It is the combination of behaviors and the exhibiting of repetitive patterns that gives these bots away. If you're here then I'm sure you've already seen lots of bots and are looking to help. Begin by observing the behaviors we note here, and those you might have read elsewhere in the forum threads and blogs on the internet, and with a little practice you'll notice that finding bots becomes second nature. And, as an aside, the word 'pattern' in conjunction with the word 'behavior' and/or 'repetitive' shows up 18 times on the bot university page. I tried to make that point as crystal clear as possible (by being as repetitive about how repetitive the bots are as the bots themselves would probably be!). Bots are found through the repetitive patterns of behavior they exhibit. There, I've said it again ;)
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.17 10:22:00 - [1752] If anyone thought RMTers or their clients would be lying low, no such luck. NoahPegram (1-day alt) has bought 40bn worth of junk in the last few hours. Screenshot shows a list of his recent customers. If you know these people, let them know their isk's gonna disappear soon. http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6387/rmtad.jpg Petition is in.
GinFizz	Posted - 2011.03.17 10:37:00 - [1753] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome If anyone thought RMTers or their clients would be lying low, no such luck. NoahPegram (1-day alt) has bought 40bn worth of junk in the last few hours. Screenshot shows a list of his recent customers. If you know these people, let them know their isk's gonna disappear soon. http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6387/rmtad.jpg Petition is in. Nice, they RMTers/botters are totally screwed now when they get hit with a written warning followed by a 1 day ban!
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.17 10:46:00 - [1754] Edited by: Nadarius Chrome on 17/03/2011 10:46:44 What would you have me do? Hack their account? Trace their IP? Hunt them down and maim their family? This isn't a movie, there's jack sh** any player can do beyond this. That's why we need CCP to actually take some action instead of sanctioning it with their inactivity.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.17 10:59:00 - [1755] When is *****Fest? I can't wait to hear all of the nothing they're going to do.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Omni Industrial Coalition	Posted - 2011.03.17 14:23:00 - [1756] Well, whatever nothing they're going to do, it's started today... Quote: More information about this upgrade will be available in a dev blog next week and during Fanfest. Stay tuned! Pieces in place I'm guessing...
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.03.17 14:27:00 - [1757] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Well, whatever nothing they're going to do, it's started today... Quote: More information about this upgrade will be available in a dev blog next week and during Fanfest. Stay tuned! Pieces in place I'm guessing... finally different items for BPOs and BPCs I am guessing.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.17 14:29:00 - [1758] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Well, whatever nothing they're going to do, it's started today... Quote: More information about this upgrade will be available in a dev blog next week and during Fanfest. Stay tuned! Pieces in place I'm guessing... Sweet, can't wait for some shiny stuff to distract us.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.18 00:52:00 - [1759] Originally by: riverini bull.... Dude all this thread was about was to drum up interest in EVE24 so when you write your botting guide (which shows just how much it matters to you that it gets fixed) you'll have max readers.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.03.18 00:54:00 - [1760] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Can't be good for CCP's reputation. as compared to what other game? EVERY MMO OUT THERE has bots. and in other games, NOONE gives two ***s about them this is like saying "EVE has bots too" crickets*

Puppet Mas'ter	Posted - 2011.03.18 00:58:00 - [1761] Edited by: Puppet Mas''ter on 18/03/2011 01:01:24 Edited by: Puppet Mas''ter on 18/03/2011 01:00:09 Edited by: Puppet Mas''ter on 18/03/2011 00:58:52 Originally by: 000Hunter000 Originally by: Cyrus Doul ibtl Hehe i had to post this beauty.. post number 2... Boy were u wrong! but back on topic... personally i'd like to see the gtc for isk thing go away as well, way too easy to abuse your daddies platinum card and get a leg up in eve... That had to keep it open to lock every other thread about this. If you fight someone and dont give them a way out, they fight that much harder. This way, they can sweep it under the rug Originally by: CCP Sreegs because I like bots fixt lol someone should dress as a robot and be plastered with actual botting and RMT ads whens fanfest?

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.18 01:32:00 - [1762] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: ArtieLange Did that AFK cloaking alliance ever kick off? I've got an alt I will never use for anything productive that's now in a cov-ops. I might be tempted to sit griefing people all day. Nah. CCP made some changes to the netcode that means I can no longer play EvE at Australian prime time. So I cancelled the AFK cloaker thing till they fix it, which will be never apparently. Hoping that somebody that can actually play will pick it up and do it though. I'm very curious about what you're referring to here. If your ISP is filtering you it's the fault of bad signatures on the ISPs side. We can't stop developing EVE on the off chance IDS vendors will mislabel us as something we aren't. I'm happy to work with the ISP to try to get the vendor to update whatever product it is they're running, but in the absence of information about said product there's not a whole lot we can do.

Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.18 06:05:00 - [1763] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: ArtieLange Did that AFK cloaking alliance ever kick off? I've got an alt I will never use for anything productive that's now in a cov-ops. I might be tempted to sit griefing people all day. Nah. CCP made some changes to the netcode that means I can no longer play EvE at Australian prime time. So I cancelled the AFK cloaker thing till they fix it, which will be never apparently. Hoping that somebody that can actually play will pick it up and do it though. I'm very curious about what you're referring to here. If your ISP is filtering you it's the fault of bad signatures on the ISPs side. We can't stop developing EVE on the off chance IDS vendors will mislabel us as something we aren't. I'm happy to work with the ISP to try to get the vendor to update whatever product it is they're running, but in the absence of information about said product there's not a whole lot we can do. Either Optus Internet or Tata communications is flagging EvE data as p2p. Been happening for the last 4 months. This is in my opinion the direct result of the bitcode change and not because Optus or Tata is flagging traffic since they have been packet shaping for years with the old code and the issue never presented until CCP made its recent changes. While we can point fingers and pass blame on whose fault it is, the end result is CCP have millions of potential customers who are unable to log into EvE at their prime time because of it. Im a little surprised you don't know about this since I've made numerous threads and complaints on the issues forum and there have been multiple threads running consistently since the problem appeared. Unfortunately its not a simple matter to change providers in Australia since were locked into contracts that are quite expensive to get out of. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.18 06:22:00 - [1764] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Im a little surprised you don't know about this since I've made numerous threads and complaints really? surprised? like the numerous thread, complaints, reports, flags, etc etc etc etc etc etc about the FIFTY NINE PAGE THREAD topic and just soooooo much gets done
Shandir Minmatar EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.03.18 13:08:00 - [1765] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Either Optus Internet or Tata communications is flagging EvE data as p2p. Been happening for the last 4 months. This is in my opinion the direct result of the bitcode change and not because Optus or Tata is flagging traffic since they have been packet shaping for years with the old code and the issue never presented until CCP made its recent changes. Your ISP is probably flagging non-torrent traffic as torrent traffic. This is a bug at the ISPs filtering system. They are at fault. CCP can help, but if you want to resolve the problem with your ISPs filtering and software, you need to talk to your ISP and get them to do something about it. And if they're refusing to fix it, this might be a good way to get out of your contract - their equipment is faulty. This is like blaming your car manufacturer for roadworks. CCP makes the traffic and expects the internet to work as it's intended to. If something stops the internet from working properly, you can't expect them to agree it's their fault. - Vote Trebor Daehdoow for CSM and Chairman of CSM. Trebor's Campaign Manifesto
James Tiberius Kirk	Posted - 2011.03.18 13:18:00 - [1766] Originally by: Shandir Originally by: Infinity Ziona Either Optus Internet or Tata communications is flagging EvE data as p2p. Been happening for the last 4 months. This is in my opinion the direct result of the bitcode change and not because Optus or Tata is flagging traffic since they have been packet shaping for years with the old code and the issue never presented until CCP made its recent changes. Your ISP is probably flagging non-torrent traffic as torrent traffic. This is a bug at the ISPs filtering system. They are at fault. CCP can help, but if you want to resolve the problem with your ISPs filtering and software, you need to talk to your ISP and get them to do something about it. And if they're refusing to fix it, this might be a good way to get out of your contract - their equipment is faulty. This is like blaming your car manufacturer for roadworks. CCP makes the traffic and expects the internet to work as it's intended to. If something stops the internet from working properly, you can't expect them to agree it's their fault. Unless the ISP has customers service at the superhuman level, I doubt they'll change their anti-P2P policy just because some nerd couldn't play his video game. Ultimately, it is faster if CCP contacts the ISP, as it is their SERVICE.
wr3cks Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.03.18 13:44:00 - [1767] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome If anyone thought RMTers or their clients would be lying low, no such luck. NoahPegram (1-day alt) has bought 40bn worth of junk in the last few hours. Screenshot shows a list of his recent customers. If you know these people, let them know their isk's gonna disappear soon. http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6387/rmtad.jpg Petition is in. How did you find this, by the way?
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2011.03.18 17:49:00 - [1768] Originally by: CCP Loxy Official Fanfest's schedule *Schedule is subject to changes. Friday 25th All times are GMT (EVE Time) 18:00 Security Not to add pressure on top of pressure for CCP Sreegs, but I'm thinking there's gonna be a load of eyes on this one.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.18 18:55:00 - [1769] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow Not to add pressure on top of pressure for CCP Sreegs, but I'm thinking there's gonna be a load of eyes on this one. Aye. Fair amount of expectation/hope pinned on that presentation.
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.03.18 20:51:00 - [1770] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies When is *****Fest? I can't wait to hear all of the nothing they're going to do. We got some stuff saved just in case... basically 2 follow up articles, and other giggling stuff. R

Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.18 21:34:00 - [1771] Originally by: wr3cks Originally by: Nadarius Chrome If anyone thought RMTers or their clients would be lying low, no such luck. NoahPegram (1-day alt) has bought 40bn worth of junk in the last few hours. Screenshot shows a list of his recent customers. If you know these people, let them know their isk's gonna disappear soon. http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6387/rmtad.jpg Petition is in. How did you find this, by the way? I was looking at recently listed contracts and found the one selling a rifter for 2.4bn. Since I was in Jita I figured the guy would spam it in some way as a contract but it never was. Then it was sold shortly afterwards to a sub 1-day character which just stank to high heaven. Looking at that character's contracts history made it pretty obvious what was happening. It looks like they tell their customers to list any item at the price of however much ISK they've bought (and most seem to list it with their name as the description) which is shortly afterwards accepted by a brand new mule character. I wouldn't be surprised if that character is biomassed as soon as possible after a series of transactions to make tracking things just that little bit harder.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.18 21:42:00 - [1772] Looks like there's another deal going down. http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4492/anotherrmtcustomer.jpg Prove me wrong Joker2309. Explain that contract. Bet it'll be accepted by some 1-day char shortly.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.18 21:53:00 - [1773] Haha he deleted it. Use an alt next time okay?
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.18 23:29:00 - [1774] Edited by: dexington on 18/03/2011 23:34:21 @Nadarius Can't you start a new thread where you post screenshots of people you petition, i really don't know how much more of your smug self-satisfied snitching i can stomach. It's not your job to be the SS of the space police, you have zero prof that people are doing anything illegal, petition them and let ccp deal with them. If you are the kinda of petty person that needs to gloat, them convo them or send them a mail, before you know they indeed have done anything illegal you should'nt post it on a public forum.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.19 00:04:00 - [1775] Edited by: Nadarius Chrome on 19/03/2011 00:07:46 Nice try at godwinning the thread, but if you really want to compare you could call me a concerned citizen sick of the authorities' inaction. People like you and whitehound are obviously of the opinion that there is no problem. People like me (oh, and 90% of the rest of the people in this and other threads) think there is. You have a problem with me stating my opinion? Perhaps it is you who need to be compared to the SS. Edit to add: My petitions carry absolutely 0 weight as proof with CCP, as it should be. I'm merely alerting them to the fact that I personally think that there is an issue with a particular transaction. Much like the evebank list, I do not expect nor want CCP to take that as any kind of proof of nefarious activity. I merely want them to use their own tools, eyes, and perhaps even brain to determine innocence or guilt, entirely with their own data. All I'm doing is trying to get them to take a closer look at the people I'm petitioning. I guess you're one of those people who looks the other way when you see a car being broken into. Or who ignores the screams of someone being assaulted. "Can't get involved, I'm not the piloce...".
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.19 00:56:00 - [1776] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Nice try at godwinning the thread, but if you really want to compare you could call me a concerned citizen sick of the authorities' inaction. People like you and whitehound are obviously of the opinion that there is no problem. People like me (oh, and 90% of the rest of the people in this and other threads) think there is. You have a problem with me stating my opinion? Perhaps it is you who need to be compared to the SS. The problem is not you stating your opinon, the problem is that you are calling people out to be isk buyers with no proof except an odd 1B contract. What is next you are going to post every scam contract with prices listen in M and not K, they are just as likely to be the cover for an RMT transaction. Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Edit to add: My petitions carry absolutely 0 weight as proof with CCP, as it should be. I'm merely alerting them to the fact that I personally think that there is an issue with a particular transaction. Much like the evebank list, I do not expect nor want CCP to take that as any kind of proof of nefarious activity. I merely want them to use their own tools, eyes, and perhaps even brain to determine innocence or guilt, entirely with their own data. All I'm doing is trying to get them to take a closer look at the people I'm petitioning. This has nothing to do with the iskbank customer list, that list was the closest you can get to solid proof. What you are doing is picking odd contracts and publicly claiming people are involved RMT transfers, and demanding that they prove you wrong without you in the first place proved they did something illegal. Originally by: Nadarius Chrome I guess you're one of those people who looks the other way when you see a car being broken into. Or who ignores the screams of someone being assaulted. "Can't get involved, I'm not the piloce...". You really should get down form your moral high ground, what you are doing is the equivalent picking the first person that maybe matches the description and just start shouting "he did it!, he did it!".
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.19 01:02:00 - [1777] I'm sure I could argue with you for days or weeks, but my time is worth more to me than that. You're wrong. Everyone else is right. If CCP actually investigated and did something once in a while this issue would never have arisen. Instead, people are frustrated because other people who are cheating the system are (or appear to be) getting away with it unpunished.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.03.19 01:21:00 - [1778] CCP, who owns EVERYTHING in this game, including these forums and even your character, is going to do whatever they are going to do. No amount of pointing things out to them is going to change that one bit. The ONLY thing you have to decide is if you want to keep playing it as is or if you want to play something else. You simply are not going to change the face of the game no matter how much you whinge about it.
sableye principle of motion	Posted - 2011.03.19 01:21:00 - [1779] keep up the good work Nadarius Chrom, even if your wrong at least your helping to clear up crappy contracts that clog the system. ----------------------------------------- View The North Star! In All Its Glory!!
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.19 01:38:00 - [1780] Haha yep. Previous threadnaughts have never achieved anything, and people should just pay their $15 and stfu.

Katie Tanaka	Posted - 2011.03.19 01:51:00 - [1781] Originally by: dexington The problem is not you stating your opinon, the problem is that you are calling people out to be isk buyers with no proof except an odd 1B contract. What is next you are going to post every scam contract with prices listen in M and not K, they are just as likely to be the cover for an RMT transaction. Oh please. Give us your alternative explanation for why a sub-one-day old character would buy a script worth approximately 10,000 ISK in the market via the contracts system for 2.5bn ISK from a player who feels the need to put his name as the contract description? You get bonus points if I don't sneeze my coffee out of my nose in laughter at the outlandishness of your suggestion. If you did a financial transaction like this in the real world, you'd be reported under anti-money-laundering legislation.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.03.19 02:16:00 - [1782] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Haha yep. Previous threadnaughts have never achieved anything, and people should just pay their $15 and stfu. No, I'm suggesting that you don't pay your $15 and gtfo. I hope you can appreciate the subtle difference.
sableye principle of motion	Posted - 2011.03.19 02:18:00 - [1783] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: ArtieLange Did that AFK cloaking alliance ever kick off? I've got an alt I will never use for anything productive that's now in a cov-ops. I might be tempted to sit griefing people all day. Nah. CCP made some changes to the netcode that means I can no longer play EvE at Australian prime time. So I cancelled the AFK cloaker thing till they fix it, which will be never apparently. Hoping that somebody that can actually play will pick it up and do it though. I'm very curious about what you're referring to here. If your ISP is filtering you it's the fault of bad signatures on the ISPs side. We can't stop developing EVE on the off chance IDS vendors will mislabel us as something we aren't. I'm happy to work with the ISP to try to get the vendor to update whatever product it is they're running, but in the absence of information about said product there's not a whole lot we can do. Either Optus Internet or Tata communications is flagging EvE data as p2p. Been happening for the last 4 months. This is in my opinion the direct result of the bitcode change and not because Optus or Tata is flagging traffic since they have been packet shaping for years with the old code and the issue never presented until CCP made its recent changes. While we can point fingers and pass blame on whose fault it is, the end result is CCP have millions of potential customers who are unable to log into EvE at their prime time because of it. Im a little surprised you don't know about this since I've made numerous threads and complaints on the issues forum and there have been multiple threads running consistently since the problem appeared. Unfortunately its not a simple matter to change providers in Australia since were locked into contracts that are quite expensive to get out of. complain to your isp not to eve they don't control your connection ----------------------------------------- View The North Star! In All Its Glory!!
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.19 03:00:00 - [1784] Originally by: Katie Tanaka Originally by: dexington The problem is not you stating your opinon, the problem is that you are calling people out to be isk buyers with no proof except an odd 1B contract. What is next you are going to post every scam contract with prices listen in M and not K, they are just as likely to be the cover for an RMT transaction. Oh please. Give us your alternative explanation for why a sub-one-day old character would buy a script worth approximately 10,000 ISK in the market via the contracts system for 2.5bn ISK from a player who feels the need to put his name as the contract description? You get bonus points if I don't sneeze my coffee out of my nose in laughter at the outlandishness of your suggestion. If you did a financial transaction like this in the real world, you'd be reported under anti-money-laundering legislation. My comment was aimed at the post with the 1B contract for 1 unit of salvage loot, which does seem odd but i don't think it qualifies as proof of RMT. I would say there is a big difference between someone who makes multiple 2.5B transaction on a character that seem created only for that purpose, and someone that make a strange 1B contract. If some transaction seems suspicious then get the GM's to look at it, there is no point in using the forum to convict players of RMT when it's impossible to prove their guilt or for them to prove their innocence.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.19 03:03:00 - [1785] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Looks like there's another deal going down. http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4492/anotherrmtcustomer.jpg Prove me wrong Joker2309. Explain that contract. Bet it'll be accepted by some 1-day char shortly. Funny thing about this; I thought calling ppl out on the forums was a no-no
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.03.19 03:05:00 - [1786] lol I know what the Fanfest thing is: "Guess how many CSM have been RMT traders and bot farmer farm managers?" Id lol
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.19 03:39:00 - [1787] Originally by: Sullen Skoung Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Looks like there's another deal going down. http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4492/anotherrmtcustomer.jpg Prove me wrong Joker2309. Explain that contract. Bet it'll be accepted by some 1-day char shortly. Funny thing about this; I thought calling ppl out on the forums was a no-no That would be funny. Ban me for that and let RMT'ers run wild.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.19 03:43:00 - [1788] Originally by: Xylengra You simply are not going to change the face of the game no matter how much you whinge about it. Well, to be fair, all it took was about 5 whiny ****s to complain about inactive RP to get that changed.
Kalle Demos Amarr Helix Protocol	Posted - 2011.03.19 04:39:00 - [1789] I too am fed up with the bots I wish CCP would do something about NC bots :( . Im not Bismaru, im better!
Apollo Gabriel Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel	Posted - 2011.03.19 04:42:00 - [1790] Originally by: Kalle Demos I too am fed up with the bots I wish CCP would do something about NC bots :( these maps are painful to look at. *** Signature may appear without warning! *** Please do not feed the trolls, it builds dependency.

Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.19 05:13:00 - [1791] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Originally by: Sullen Skoung Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Looks like there's another deal going down. http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4492/anotherrmtcustomer.jpg Prove me wrong Joker2309. Explain that contract. Bet it'll be accepted by some 1-day char shortly. Funny thing about this; I thought calling ppl out on the forums was a no-no That would be funny. Ban me for that and let RMT'ers run wild. theyre not ALREADY running wild?
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.19 06:56:00 - [1792] Edited by: Nadarius Chrome on 19/03/2011 06:57:28 Check out *****2's (where the stars obscure the common word for a female of negotiable affection) history of managing to sell overpriced shuttles. 200m for one (sold in 36 minutes) on 16/2/2011 1bn for one (sold in 33 minutes) on 20/2/2011 500m for one (sold in 24 minutes) on 1/3/2011 And one listed right now for 1bn. Bet a new char buys it any minute now. This is obviously someone's alt. Only other contracts it has are couriers from around the place to Villore, obviously where his main lives. Time to biomass that one whoever owns it.
Memorya	Posted - 2011.03.19 09:44:00 - [1793] For CCP's good it is time to start permanent banning even if the guy rtmed 0.1$. ------------------------ English is my 5th. Language.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.19 09:49:00 - [1794] Originally by: sableye complain to your isp not to eve they don't control your connection No they don't control the connection but they control the bitcode that is being flagged. Like I said before, this happened when CCP changed the bitcode not because all of a sudden ISP's started shaping traffic in peak times. Its sortof like making me dress up as a bear on a hunting reserve and then going, well yeah people are taking potshots at you but its not our bear suit, its the hunters with guns... --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Kalle Demos Amarr Helix Protocol	Posted - 2011.03.19 09:51:00 - [1795] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Edited by: Nadarius Chrome on 19/03/2011 06:57:28 Check out ***2's (where the stars obscure the common word for a female of negotiable affection) history of managing to sell overpriced shuttles. 200m for one (sold in 36 minutes) on 16/2/2011 1bn for one (sold in 33 minutes) on 20/2/2011 500m for one (sold in 24 minutes) on 1/3/2011 And one listed right now for 1bn. Bet a new char buys it any minute now. This is obviously someone's alt. Only other contracts it has are couriers from around the place to Villore, obviously where his main lives. Time to biomass that one whoever owns it. where the stars obscure the common word for a female of negotiable affection If the forums werent bugged I would never have got have said. The player in question is *2 the word starred out is also starred out below. "A person who drools over killmails is a killmail *, who contributes to nothing but killmail whoring, then claims to be elite because his stats are full of blobs where all he did was killmail ***" . Im not Bismaru, im better!
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.19 10:23:00 - [1796] Originally by: Infinity Ziona No they don't control the connection but they control the bitcode that is being flagged. Like I said before, this happened when CCP changed the bitcode not because all of a sudden ISP's started shaping traffic in peak times. The problem is no the program code, it's the ISP's system that is not configured correctly. It's the ISP that needs to fix the problem, not CCP. Do you have any proof that the ISP is throttling internet speed based on the eve data signature, or are you just guessing?. The systems i've heared of doing this, does it based of the amount of data you are down/up loading. Eve don't use a massive amount of bandwidth, seem very odd they would use that as a trigger.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.19 11:01:00 - [1797] Its not Optus, its Tata who are running the offending traffic shaper. Tata are Optus' "partner" - AKA upstream supplier and I can only assume that Optus agreed to this. Optus massively increased their data caps for customers in Nov/Dec and patently do NOT have the transit bandwidth to cope, hence the shaping times changing from 20:00 EDT to 18:00 EDT. Pretty bloody odd running DPI on the actual transit (shaper in question seems to be in Telehouse NYC) rather than at the edge/core routers but Tata have a less than reliable reputation so who knows. All been discussed in the relevant forum anyway - where it should stay. If CCP want to get involved in talking to transit providers then good luck to them, I suspect they'll get ignored or told to **** off. NB - Eve is not the only affected game by any means, there's a fair few discussions regarding Optus and games on Aussie internet forums. Same symptoms.
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.03.20 01:18:00 - [1798] Eagerly awaiting the CCP fanfest announcement on this issue. Better be a good plan that they roll out.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.03.20 02:45:00 - [1799] My money is on some corporate-speak using many words to say not much of anything at all. Those expecting a proclamation from the heavens with a final solution attached will be disappointed.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.20 07:57:00 - [1800] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Consortium Agent A big post that I can't quote :( Hey guy thanks for the kind words. I didn't run away from the thread or anything there's just A) Only so much to say at the moment with Fanfest a week or so away B) A lot more of you guys than there are of me C) I was traveling last week which minimizes my posting time I was aware of your site and found it very useful from a few perspectives that if I don't remember to mention at Fanfest I'll be happy to discuss with you in person if you're attending. If not just bump the thread after or post in the dev blog and I'll get into some more detail. Linkage So the talk on bots has been masked (again!) as a presentation on "Security"? or has CCP decided that the issue of botting is not of sufficient interest to the EVE audience that it warrants a livestream? looking forward to no mention of bots and plenty "evil RMTers will steal your account details" propaganda.

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.20 08:14:00 - [1801] Well Sreegs is the BOFH network security guy which I don't associate with bots and RMT. I'm obviously wrong though as he chose to involve himself in this thread. We'll see in 5 days. If its fluff then the message is clear (everyone run a bot) and I hope CCP are ready for the sh*tstorm that will follow.
Umega Solis Mensa	Posted - 2011.03.20 08:50:00 - [1802] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Originally by: Infinity Ziona Can't be good for CCP's reputation. as compared to what other game? EVERY MMO OUT THERE has bots. and in other games, NOONE gives two ***s about them this is like saying "EVE has bots too" crickets* There is a big difference when comparing EVE's bot problem to other MMO's bot problem. EVE is marketed and sold to consumers as a 'Sandbox' game in which players have a wider range of control, effect, outcome, influence on each other and its surrounding landscape than the vast majority of MMOs. Bot's ruin this supposed aspect of EVE, in a multitude of damning fashions. You should ask yourself if it truly is a Sandbox and what EVE is marketed as, when you consider the following.. The supply to minerals brought on by macro-miners. The effects of the prices of minerals, which in turns effects the prices of everything that is created by them. The supply of POS ice brought on by macro-miners. The effects of POS fuel cost from everyone stretching from high to null to W. The Isk faucets turned on by macro-ratters. The effects of massive alliances that endorse their players, or 'suggest' their players to bot.. creating vast amounts of wealth for personal, corporate, alliance war chests. The supercap explosion brought on by having macro-miners/ratters supply alliances with more than they could get and accomplish without breaking the rules. Allowing them to hold vast amounts of space when under normal conditions without macros, they would not succeed in doing so. The stablity of moon-goo. Sov doesn't change much.. if the moment occurs when a super power is lifted out.. they simply grab their illegal got war chest, punch someone else in the face that is struggling and trying to make it in a small sigment of null. Rebuild and take back what they lost after amassing a huge fleet in a very short time frame. How many times has this happened? Too many. No alliance ever dies in EVE.. if they bot, they are essentially immortal. The market is a **ed mess thanks to the bot swarm. Nullsec is a **ed mess thanks to the bot swarm. Both should be a chaotic maelstrom of player induced actions n effects.. neither are such. Both heavy influenced and controled by the macros and what they do. CCP's reputation would then be damned to oblivion.. selling a game, and it not being what they claim it to be. The consequences of bots are far, far more severe to the fabric of EVE than any other MMO. Unless something is done.. 'EVE is dying' might turn out to be true for once. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please.
Ban Doga	Posted - 2011.03.20 09:32:00 - [1803] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Looks like there's another deal going down. http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4492/anotherrmtcustomer.jpg Prove me wrong Joker2309. Explain that contract. Bet it'll be accepted by some 1-day char shortly. Ah, the age old "prove me wrong" approach. The unshakable foundation of getting to the truth. You are a 35 year old bald female living in Frankfort, Kentucky. Prove me wrong!
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.03.20 12:05:00 - [1804] And all this botting is producing Super-Cap numbers rising. And you cant say that this is not killing EVE... 450 supercaps produced every month... and that is old data... well... that is sad... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.20 12:13:00 - [1805] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae And all this botting is producing Super-Cap numbers rising. And you cant say that this is not killing EVE... 450 supercaps produced every month... and that is old data... well... that is sad... QEN says the number is a lot lower then 450, probably not higher then 300.
Kalle Demos Amarr Helix Protocol	Posted - 2011.03.20 12:19:00 - [1806] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae And all this botting is producing Super-Cap numbers rising. And you cant say that this is not killing EVE... 450 supercaps produced every month... and that is old data... well... that is sad... Actually my comment was based on 2 months not one (my bad) so its just under 300+ atm but only Dr Enjo can confirm this ;) saying that. In the QEN it was close to 180+ SUPERCARRIERS (titans I wont even go into), this was in October, last year in March it was 80+ a month, thats an increase of approx 100 produced AND confirmed, based on those stats it is safe to say it is close to 300 now. I may have been wrong about the 450+ comment but considering the growth it would hit those numbers within 6 months and again this doesnt include titans. . Im not Bismaru, im better!
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.03.20 12:20:00 - [1807] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: sableye complain to your isp not to eve they don't control your connection No they don't control the connection but they control the bitcode that is being flagged. Like I said before, this happened when CCP changed the bitcode not because all of a sudden ISP's started shaping traffic in peak times. Its sortof like making me dress up as a bear on a hunting reserve and then going, well yeah people are taking potshots at you but its not our bear suit, its the hunters with guns... Perhaps its your fault for being in the bear suit, and doing nothing to get out of it. You should have known something was up when they asked you to dress as a bear.
Katie Tanaka	Posted - 2011.03.20 12:20:00 - [1808] Originally by: Ban Doga Ah, the age old "prove me wrong" approach. The unshakable foundation of getting to the truth.You are a 35 year old bald female living in Frankfort, Kentucky. Prove me wrong! It's not really equivalent, is it? "Prove me wrong" is an invitation to bring evidence that provides an alternative explanation. There's a good reason to think that a contract with a common salvage component worth order of 1K ISK for a million times that much is suspicious. In the real world, obvious under- or over-pricing of goods is a red flag for money laundering. Same in EVE.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.20 12:37:00 - [1809] Originally by: Katie Tanaka In the real world, obvious under- or over-pricing of goods is a red flag for money laundering. Same in EVE. That still don't mean anyone has to prove anything to someone on the forums, suspicious trading and scams is part of eve.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.20 12:48:00 - [1810] Originally by: Xylengra My money is on some corporate-speak using many words to say not much of anything at all. Those expecting a proclamation from the heavens with a final solution attached will be disappointed. My money is on them unveiling a multi-faceted plan of action that is unprecedented in it's scope and sweep, combined with new tools for players to report bots via petition and more stringent penalties for those breaking the rules. We can all agree CCP has, in the past, done little more than blow smoke up our bungholes and ignore the bot problem as if it were not a problem so they could pursue other interests (there are too many to name) - however, given the breadth and depth of the News24 coverage, combined with an increase in the real player loss rate, an increase in bots being reported and an increase in community action against botting in general - I think they get the picture at long last. Nobody will know for sure until Sreggs gives us his presentation on the 25th, which I will be watching with much anticipation, but I can honestly say I feel something has changed in the paradigm of CCP vs. Players vs. Bots... I can only hope I'm correct :)

Katie Tanaka	Posted - 2011.03.20 12:51:00 - [1811] Originally by: dexington That still don't mean anyone has to prove anything to someone on the forums, suspicious trading and scams is part of eve. But RMT is not part of EVE, and that transaction looks suspicious of RMT more than that it does of scamming. For instance: there's no attempt made to make the item sound attractive to a potential buyer with misleading description or anything like that; it's also for an item in which there's a highly liquid market, so most people are going to look for it (and find it) via the Market rather than via Contracts. Particularly as its posted in Jita 4-4. If I want to give someone a billion ISK, I can just use the "give money" option. There's no reason to create a fake contract. So we have a transaction with a vanishingly low probability of success in a scam scenario, which attempts to achieve a funds transfer other than by the mechanisms that people believe CCP actively monitor for RMT (e.g. direct transfers).
Higgs Foton hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.20 13:32:00 - [1812] On another note. Recently i red some rumors about the GM department being infiltrated by RMT's. I do not know if this is indeed true, but we have all seen the numbers game on evenews24. If one RMT organisation makes about 350.000 dollars in 9 months it will be no problem at all to get some dough to some poor GM to look the other way when people petition. Would also explain a lot about nothing really been done and ****ty one day bans on obvious bot accounts. A GM department is mostly populated by volunteers or severely underpaid workers. It will be easy to buy people there. Thinking otherwise would be naive at best. ___________________________________
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.20 14:07:00 - [1813] Originally by: Katie Tanaka So we have a transaction with a vanishingly low probability of success in a scam scenario, which attempts to achieve a funds transfer other than by the mechanisms that people believe CCP actively monitor for RMT (e.g. direct transfers). That still does not justify that someone needs to prove anything on the forums, petition the transaction and if the GM's find there indeed have been something illegal going on they will deal with it. There is no proof anything illegal have been going on, if you convict people based on suspicion how are they ever going to prove their innocence?. If the person who made the contract said he did it just to show a friend how contracts work in eve, everyone would say he was just trying to cover the fact he was would something illegal, even if he was telling the truth. It's like when religious people say you need to prove that gods does not exist, without having to prove he exist in the first place. If assume god exist and the bible is fact, and not fiction, it's impossible to prove god does not exist. As long as the users of the forums can't produce hard evidence that someone is involved in RMT, they should not post alligations of illegal activity.
Angel of Night	Posted - 2011.03.20 15:11:00 - [1814] Proof, evidence, quessing, no point at <insert word here>, not true...
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.20 15:30:00 - [1815] Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 20/03/2011 15:36:25 Originally by: Angel of Night Proof, evidence, quessing, no point at <insert word here>, not true... ~~This.~~ Edit - I meant to say "what is this?"
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.20 15:50:00 - [1816] Skreeg, gotta ask man, Linkage where is this supposed important announcement you allude to that will satisfy us (just dont set your aims too high)
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.20 15:58:00 - [1817] Its part of the "security" presentation, or so says the fanfest brochure: "Hear what CCP has done to improve security over the past few months and our developing process to deal with the various issues that can impact peopleÆs enjoyment of the game -such as bots, authentication and client security." CCP Sreegs has said he considers it a security issue. I guess because many bot programs also hack accounts of the users, and violate the security of the client.
Katie Tanaka	Posted - 2011.03.20 16:33:00 - [1818] Originally by: dexington There is no proof anything illegal have been going on, if you convict people based on suspicion how are they ever going to prove their innocence? Hey I'm not convicting anyone (would it mean anything if I did?) Obviously there's no proof of anything available to us, only CCP could determine that. It's not exactly like this is a court of law and the issue is sub iudice. Don't want people to talk about what you're doing in EVE? Don't do dumb / weird / suspicious stuff in public.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.20 16:46:00 - [1819] Originally by: Katie Tanaka Don't want people to talk about what you're doing in EVE? Don't do dumb / weird / suspicious stuff in public. There is a clear difference between saying someone is doing dumb / weird / suspicious stuff, and claiming they are doing bannable offenses without any solid proof.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.20 20:12:00 - [1820] isnt it also a actionable offense on the forums to call people out in the game? Is it me or do the mods go home on the weekends

Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.20 21:10:00 - [1821] Originally by: Sullen Skoung isnt it also a actionable offense on the forums to call people out in the game? Is it me or do the mods go home on the weekends CCP is studiously avoiding this thread and will just lock it once it has descended far enough into insults and namecalling. I'll just restate: We're not asking CCP to ban people based purely on the stuff players dig up. We're simply saying "Here, this looks suspicious. Plese investigate." It appears some people have a problem with that. Why, I wouldn't know. What would be a good reason to not want CCP to look into RMT?
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.20 21:36:00 - [1822] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome I'll just restate: We're not asking CCP to ban people based purely on the stuff players dig up. We're simply saying "Here, this looks suspicious. Plese investigate." MAKE A PETITION, the forums are not the place to report suspicious behavior. Originally by: Nadarius Chrome It appears some people have a problem with that. Why, I wouldn't know. What would be a good reason to not want CCP to look into RMT? Yes, some people are having a problem with you being to dim to understand the correct use of petitions and the forums. No one is trying to stop CCP from doing anything, except maybe you. If you would petition the problem and not using it for attention whoring on the forums, maybe something would be done about it.
d4shing	Posted - 2011.03.20 22:56:00 - [1823] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Nadarius Chrome I'll just restate: We're not asking CCP to ban people based purely on the stuff players dig up. We're simply saying "Here, this looks suspicious. Plese investigate." MAKE A PETITION, the forums are not the place to report suspicious behavior. Originally by: Nadarius Chrome It appears some people have a problem with that. Why, I wouldn't know. What would be a good reason to not want CCP to look into RMT? Yes, some people are having a problem with you being to dim to understand the correct use of petitions and the forums. No one is trying to stop CCP from doing anything, except maybe you. If you would petition the problem and not using it for attention whoring on the forums, maybe something would be done about it. You sound like someone who has never tried to petition bots. They don't get a response and get auto-closed after like a week, and the botters keep farming away. The only way to get CCP to take action is to embarrass them with how rote, boring, and corrupt their gameplay has become.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.20 23:54:00 - [1824] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Nadarius Chrome I'll just restate: We're not asking CCP to ban people based purely on the stuff players dig up. We're simply saying "Here, this looks suspicious. Plese investigate." MAKE A PETITION, the forums are not the place to report suspicious behavior. Right. And you think I haven't? Oh wait, you know I have as I've mentioned that previously. As other people have said, nothing has been done. 4 days so far on my petition, still "open", no response from CCP. None expected, but hey, at least I'm following the process. CCPs record on acting on exploits has been abysmal. There's no other word for it. Only when people get loud about it does anything get done. T20. POS bowling. Monkeysphere. Moongoo duping. If petitioning did anything then this whole thread would never have existed. Originally by: dexington Originally by: Nadarius Chrome It appears some people have a problem with that. Why, I wouldn't know. What would be a good reason to not want CCP to look into RMT? Yes, some people are having a problem with you being to dim to understand the correct use of petitions and the forums. No one is trying to stop CCP from doing anything, except maybe you. If you would petition the problem and not using it for attention whoring on the forums, maybe something would be done about it. Forums are for discussion. Is that not what we're doing? If the forums weren't for discussion of this topic, surely it would have gotten locked by now? Maybe you're the one who doesn't understand the correct use of petitions and the forums. And what exactly am I trying to stop CCP from doing? I'm having a hard time imagining anyone could be as dim as you, so the only conclusion is that you're just trolling and/or flamebaiting.
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.21 00:12:00 - [1825] And just to frustrate Dex even more, check out the contract history of "blackferret". Looks like ISK sellers now accept courier contracts with huge collateral and are failing them intentionally. EG a courier contract with 2bn collateral and 1000 ISK reward. http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/2316/courierfailrmt.jpg I find it funny that one of his contracts was picked up and completed by a legit player before the RMT'er could get to it. Someone must have been travelling that way anyway 'cos it sure wasn't for the generous pay.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.03.21 08:54:00 - [1826] Quote: If you would petition the problem and not using it for attention whoring on the forums, maybe something would be done about it. This is only true on paper. A year of continuous petitioning over an ice belt super bot (with 1-2 Orcas and a cloud of hulks all with the same corp and similar names) active 23.5/7/365 has never, never, NEVER caused a single of them to be removed. He's so hugely known for being a bot that a 0.0 alliance comes to hi sec to smart bomb all of them like it's "routine". The few hulks / macks that survive to the smart bombing (killing > 10 every time) keep happily mining during the whole big attack like nothing happened. Other survived pods keep going to and from the station to the belt, all day long. The next day they are all back in their ships and digging away. ALL, never one goes amiss or is banned. WTF do you want more from the players? That we stay forever hands in hands like sogging morons while CCP does Z E R O effective actions since years? Go and make yourself a dozen of petitions and come back posting about what happened to the bots. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous Scum Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.21 10:45:00 - [1827] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Nadarius Chrome I'll just restate: We're not asking CCP to ban people based purely on the stuff players dig up. We're simply saying "Here, this looks suspicious. Plese investigate." MAKE A PETITION, the forums are not the place to report suspicious behavior. In case you've missed the hunderds of posts stating the problem with this, allow me to restate it very simply: Petitioning bots has no perceptible result, and that's what we're angry about. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.21 11:21:00 - [1828] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Go and make yourself a dozen of petitions and come back posting about what happened to the bots. Prior to this month I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly that petitioning is useless, however, in the past month I have reported over 92 bots via petition and of those reported I have seen about 18 bots now that have gone away for good, about another 12 that went away for about a week but are now back and the rest continue on happily. Is this a result of the petitions and CCP stepping up their game a little, or is this just natural causes? I'm not sure since we don't get feedback from CCP on actions taken, but my hunch is that CCP is stepping up their game a little. This doesn't eliminate the fact that many solar systems (like Kronsur) are overrun with bots and that fact has been made clear to CCP on numerous occasions and yet there continues to be this gap between actions taken and the number of bots working in that system. As Sreegs has stated, it's not feasible to assign 30 GMs 23.5/7/365 to staring at their screens looking for bots, and unfortunately this includes (by virtue of how GMs typically hear about bots) that they don't have enough staff to really even cover our existing petitions and therefore action, if any, is slow and deliberately targeted at only the largest (single) offenders (despite the fact that large swaths of alliances bot to beat the sov system CCP thought would open up more space to the rest of us... which, btw, epic fail on that one CCP). This is one of the topics I'm hopeful Sreegs will be covering in his presentation - how they are going to address a) the actual procedure of reporting, following up on and passing down the ban hammer to offenders, and b) the perception left with users after reporting bots. The latter will be key to keeping their customer base from going off the deep end and having a mass exodus, as many have promised to do failing any kind of actual factual data on what CCP intends to do to solve for this problem. Myself included.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Cloakers	Posted - 2011.03.21 11:35:00 - [1829] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 21/03/2011 11:36:24 Originally by: Kuronaga Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: sableye complain to your isp not to eve they don't control your connection No they don't control the connection but they control the bitcode that is being flagged. Like I said before, this happened when CCP changed the bitcode not because all of a sudden ISP's started shaping traffic in peak times. Its sortof like making me dress up as a bear on a hunting reserve and then going, well yeah people are taking potshots at you but its not our bear suit, its the hunters with guns... Perhaps its your fault for being in the bear suit, and doing nothing to get out of it. You should have known something was up when they asked you to dress as a bear. bearsuit is the bitcode lookin like p2p traffic. hunters are the traffic shapers lookin for p2p traffic. they never asked, they changed it without consultation or thinking. --------------------------------------------- I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.03.21 11:53:00 - [1830] I'm just giving you a hard time. But if I was in your position, I would be complaining to your ISP directly. Neither my ISP nor anyone elses I personally know have done anything that stupid. Pretty sure the fault lies with them.


CCP Adida C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.21 11:59:00 - [1831] Removed a post that directly linked a character. If you wish to report someone please submit a petition. Adida Community Rep CCP Hf, EVE Online

Lubomir Penev Aliastra	Posted - 2011.03.21 14:37:00 - [1832] No significant changes in RMT ISK prices, doesn't look like ISK sellers are feeling any heat... There are no macrominers in EVE
Higgs Foton hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.03.21 14:46:00 - [1833] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: dexington Originally by: Nadarius Chrome I'll just restate: We're not asking CCP to ban people based purely on the stuff players dig up. We're simply saying "Here, this looks suspicious. Plese investigate." MAKE A PETITION, the forums are not the place to report suspicious behavior. In case you've missed the hunderds of posts stating the problem with this, allow me to restate it very simply: Petitioning bots has no perceptible result, and that's what we're angry about. I am pretty sure petitioning will not result in anything. Like i said a page ago: There are rumors that some people at the GM department are working for RMTers. The GM department is not part of CCP, or let me rephrase that: Is not on iceland. There is no control on GM's, and since GM is basically volunteerswork or severely underpaid, there is a strong chance for corruption. When you see what ISK bank makes in profits you can imagine it will not be hard to buy a few guys who will close all outstanding petitions on botters with a "We will investigate, thank you" and then do nothing about it. Read about it on evenews24. And connect the dots. Petitioning doesn't work, much money can be made with RMT. When you can make almost 300.000-400.000dollars a year with RMT making sure people at the one department able to ban botters looking the other way is a wise investment. Offcourse these are all rumors, but this sure does explain a lot! The other alternative is sheer incompetence of the GM department. Also a viable theory though. ___________________________________
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.21 14:55:00 - [1834] Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 21/03/2011 14:55:11 Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Wow. Some of the comments on this thread seem to suggest this is nothing more than a witch hunt against players that enjoy mining and missioning. By the definitions put forth here I am a bot . Feel free to report me. wont matter lol That's a shame. Have you figured out why that may be? Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.03.21 15:19:00 - [1835] Edited by: Xylengra on 21/03/2011 15:20:00 Originally by: Consortium Agent ... keeping their customer base from going off the deep end and having a mass exodus, as many have promised to do failing any kind of actual factual data on what CCP intends to do to solve for this problem. Myself included. Bwahhahhhahahahhahaha @ mass exodus. Never.Gonna.Happen.Dude. Been around this and other MMOs for far too long to believe in mass exoduses. You leave and take a couple-three thousand with you and MY game here will be much more enjoyable, and I think the vast majority of players - the "base" - feel the same way. CCP isn't threatened by these kind of threats in the slightest. Your belief that they might be is only a product of your illusions of grandeur. Get over yourself and either play the game or move on to something else. Your analysis of the problem is only one of many, and not one, I think, that will matter much at all in the end.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.21 15:32:00 - [1836] Originally by: CCP Adida Removed a post that directly linked a character. If you wish to report someone please submit a petition. But that'd achieve nothing. Whereas linking gives the community something to chuckle at for a second.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.21 22:33:00 - [1837] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 21/03/2011 22:33:29 Looking at implant prices in Jita we have seen a steady decline during the last month (after a short period of rebound/stabilization before). Up to anyone's guess if this is due to botting becoming rampant (on buy orders we are nearing pre-unholy rage levels of sell orders) or botters slowly liquidating stock as they are scared of CCP action.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.22 00:00:00 - [1838] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Looking at implant prices in Jita we have seen a steady decline during the last month (after a short period of rebound/stabilization before). Up to anyone's guess if this is due to botting becoming rampant (on buy orders we are nearing pre-unholy rage levels of sell orders) or botters slowly liquidating stock as they are scared of CCP action. Would there be any point in liquidating stock except to sell all the isk?. I'm not sure RMT sites can increase the demand for isk, but lowering the prices, after all most of their customers should know they increase the chance of detection the more isk they buy. To me it seems that the demand for isk would remain the same, and the RMT sites would either have to start selling isk at lower prices, which would be equal to giving it away for free. Or they would have to sit on a massive amount of isk, and hope no one detects it. Is there any reason why it would be safer for the RMT sites to hide the isk, compared to items?. The action of selling the items may raise some flags, why not just wait it out and make as little noise as possible. It's not like running away to mexico with all the isk is an option :)
Calistai Huranu Red Federation	Posted - 2011.03.22 08:47:00 - [1839] So any news on when and where at fanfest the presentation concerning this issue will be iterated on at fanfest?
Jimmy Dread	Posted - 2011.03.22 09:40:00 - [1840] Originally by: Katie Tanaka Don't do dumb / weird / suspicious stuff in public. People doing dumb/weird/suspicious stuff in public is a large part of what makes EVE cool.

Amber Accelerando	Posted - 2011.03.22 12:10:00 - [1841] the curse of all MMO's. scumbags! actually it's like the curse of humanity really, this is a microcosm +1
Sito Jaxa	Posted - 2011.03.22 15:31:00 - [1842] For years there has been an argument where people complain that its unfair for others to be able to sell GTC (now plex) and use their real life income to 'get ahead of the curve'. But it has always been that the majority of the players have understood that the people who spend real money for a high sp char and fancy ship will lack the knowledge of how to effectively use their assets, thereby providing the luls for lower sp cheaper characters that have taken the time to learn2play. What is so different about rmt/botting than the endorsed GTC method this game has had since before most of you even started here? The deciding factor in power for this game has always been one of skill (be it social or technical), and isk has always been secondary. Botting is the same 'balance tipper' as RMT where players lacking skill trade for assets which they will never leverage effectively. Amassing piles of isk is not the end-game for EVE. EVE is a sandbox game and its up to you to decide what to do here. If the idea is to set your own goals then just try setting goals which a swarm of bots won't ruin and in the end of the day you'll be a lot happier.
FlameGlow Gypsy Band	Posted - 2011.03.22 16:13:00 - [1843] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Originally by: dexington Originally by: Nadarius Chrome I'll just restate: We're not asking CCP to ban people based purely on the stuff players dig up. We're simply saying "Here, this looks suspicious. Plese investigate." MAKE A PETITION, the forums are not the place to report suspicious behavior. Right. And you think I haven't? Oh wait, you know I have as I've mentioned that previously. As other people have said, nothing has been done. 4 days so far on my petition, still "open", no response from CCP. None expected, but hey, at least I'm following the process. CCPs record on acting on exploits has been abysmal. There's no other word for it. Only when people get loud about it does anything get done. T20. POS bowling. Monkeysphere. Moongoo duping. If petitioning did anything then this whole thread would never have existed. I hear the full eve client source code for incursion is available in torrents. More exploits and better bots are on the way probably.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.22 19:16:00 - [1844] Originally by: Xylengra Edited by: Xylengra on 21/03/2011 15:20:00 Bwahhahhhahahahhahaha @ mass exodus. Never.Gonna.Happen.Dude. Been around this and other MMOs for far too long to believe in mass exoduses. You leave and take a couple-three thousand with you and MY game here will be much more enjoyable, and I think the vast majority of players - the "base" - feel the same way. CCP isn't threatened by these kind of threats in the slightest. Your belief that they might be is only a product of your illusions of grandeur. Get over yourself and either play the game or move on to something else. Your analysis of the problem is only one of many, and not one, I think, that will matter much at all in the end. I can sum up your entire argument with one simple counter-argument: Star Wars Galaxies 'nuff said.
Lubomir Penev Aliastra	Posted - 2011.03.22 20:39:00 - [1845] Originally by: FlameGlow I hear the full eve client source code for incursion is available in torrents. It's not the source, it's just a bunch of decompiled Python files from the client. So it's nothing that CCP didn't distribute on purpose. Quote: More exploits and better bots are on the way probably. Possibly but not because of that torrent. There are no macrominers in EVE
d4shing	Posted - 2011.03.22 21:40:00 - [1846] Originally by: CCP Adida Removed a post that directly linked a character. If you wish to report someone please submit a petition. Or, just send it into [email protected] and EN24 will follow-up on it and CCP can read about it a week or two later in another article about how corrupt and broken their game is.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.03.22 21:44:00 - [1847] Originally by: Consortium Agent Originally by: Xylengra Edited by: Xylengra on 21/03/2011 15:20:00 Bwahhahhhahahahhahaha @ mass exodus. Never.Gonna.Happen.Dude. Been around this and other MMOs for far too long to believe in mass exoduses. You leave and take a couple-three thousand with you and MY game here will be much more enjoyable, and I think the vast majority of players - the "base" - feel the same way. CCP isn't threatened by these kind of threats in the slightest. Your belief that they might be is only a product of your illusions of grandeur. Get over yourself and either play the game or move on to something else. Your analysis of the problem is only one of many, and not one, I think, that will matter much at all in the end. I can sum up your entire argument with one simple counter-argument: Star Wars Galaxies 'nuff said. That you think the two games are similar enough to project and predict future developments in this game speaks more to your misunderstanding of the 'problem' than anything else you have posted in this thread. As they say in the elections, you bring your folk, I'll bring mine, we'll see how it all shakes out.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.22 23:11:00 - [1848] Is there any information about good systems to afk camp? A channel for campers, mailing list etc...
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.23 02:32:00 - [1849] Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: Consortium Agent Originally by: Xylengra Edited by: Xylengra on 21/03/2011 15:20:00 Bwahhahhhahahahhahaha @ mass exodus. Never.Gonna.Happen.Dude. Been around this and other MMOs for far too long to believe in mass exoduses. You leave and take a couple-three thousand with you and MY game here will be much more enjoyable, and I think the vast majority of players - the "base" - feel the same way. CCP isn't threatened by these kind of threats in the slightest. Your belief that they might be is only a product of your illusions of grandeur. Get over yourself and either play the game or move on to something else. Your analysis of the problem is only one of many, and not one, I think, that will matter much at all in the end. I can sum up your entire argument with one simple counter-argument: Star Wars Galaxies 'nuff said. That you think the two games are similar enough to project and predict future developments in this game speaks more to your misunderstanding of the 'problem' than anything else you have posted in this thread. As they say in the elections, you bring your folk, I'll bring mine, we'll see how it all shakes out. Why, exactly, do you feel it necessary to be a troll? Just because I have an opinion that is different than your opinion doesn't make your opinion any more right or wrong than mine. They're opinions - they're as common as a*holes. If you don't like my opinion, then that's fine, but to lower yourself to insulting my intelligence is both uncalled for and wholly unproductive in a real debate. In short, you just look like a troll (or a child, which is also entirely feasible in this game) trying to get under someone's skin for shts and giggles. Well, I'm sorry to say I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Now be a good troll and run along.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.23 03:35:00 - [1850] Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 23/03/2011 03:38:11 Originally by: Nadarius Chrome link removed. If you wish to report someone please submit a petition - Adida it IS more dangerous to expose bots on the forums than in game lol Originally by: Consortium Agent I never said anything about similarities between the games, that's merely an assumption on your part... and a bad one. You claimed to not believe in mass exodus from a MMO, I gave you just one example (of many). One that had nothing to do with the subject. AT ALL Do you know WHY the exodus in that game appened? Im actually curious, given the argument you referenced it in.

Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.23 03:40:00 - [1851] Originally by: d4shing Originally by: CCP Adida Removed a post that directly linked a character. If you wish to report someone please submit a petition. Or, just send it into [email protected] and EN24 will follow-up on it and CCP can read about it a week or two later in another article about how corrupt and broken their game is. Eh, the things I've dug up are nothing that anyone with 2 minutes couldn't find. Funny thing is, a buyer will usually have contracts from several different sellers in their history. A seller, contracts from multiple buyers. It's so easy to unravel a huge swath of both sides of RMT transactions with a few minutes digging that the mere fact that they haven't been dealt with means CCP really doesn't look to be doing anything. But GM Horse told me to keep reporting 'em so I will.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.23 10:10:00 - [1852] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome But GM Horse told me to keep reporting 'em so I will. Whew, it's lucky he didn't tell you to jump off a bridge.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.23 11:40:00 - [1853] Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 23/03/2011 03:38:11 Originally by: Nadarius Chrome link removed. If you wish to report someone please submit a petition - Adida it IS more dangerous to expose bots on the forums than in game lol Originally by: Consortium Agent I never said anything about similarities between the games, that's merely an assumption on your part... and a bad one. You claimed to not believe in mass exodus from a MMO, I gave you just one example (of many). One that had nothing to do with the subject. AT ALL Do you know WHY the exodus in that game appened? Im actually curious, given the argument you referenced it in. Oh, I'm sorry - I could have sworn the topic changed from 'we hate bots' to 'CCP makes an announcement about bots' to 'what some people claim they will do if CCP doesn't make some changes' to 'bahahaha there is no such things as a mass exodus'. A point which I answered very distinctly. And for the record, yes, I do know why SWG had a mass exodus and it had nothing to do with bots. My point was merely that MMO's can fail, can experience mass exodus. I drew no comparisons between Eve and SWG aside from the fact that MMO's can fail, can experience a mass exodus. Any other questions?
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.23 12:00:00 - [1854] Now that we've had two pages of what amounts to little more than trolling by some of the more childish among us, perhaps we can get back to the topic at hand... bots. To help make this thread useful again before we get our presentation from Sreegs on security in a few days, let's do something a little different. Let's start naming solar systems we know are polluted with bots. I'll start... Kronsur - courier bot heaven Teonnusude - ice belt mining bot heaven I could go on, but to be fair (and encourage others to participate) I won't. What areas do you know that are infested with bot activity - courier bots, mining bots, combat bots, market bots (we know Jita, ofc - but what of Rens, Hek, Amarr, etc?) and so forth? Last time I checked talking about what solar systems bots can generally be found in isn't against the rulez (though I'm sure Adida will kill this if it is <g>), so speak up! Lets isolate and highlight known areas of heavy bot activity. This gives people a) some places to go see bots in action and b) some places to go gank bots.
Marconus Orion Global Criminal Countdown	Posted - 2011.03.23 12:19:00 - [1855] Been reporting macro mission runners in Sivala. Nothing is being done about them. What is really awsome is the massive lag you get when you do the petition on the macros and you lose your ship because of it. GREAT GAME CCP!!!!
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.23 12:19:00 - [1856] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Funny thing is, a buyer will usually have contracts from several different sellers in their history. A seller, contracts from multiple buyers. It's so easy to unravel a huge swath of both sides of RMT transactions with a few minutes digging that the mere fact that they haven't been dealt with means CCP really doesn't look to be doing anything. It is posts like this that help the most. Teaching people how to spot these RMT and botters is one of the hardest things to do in Eve. Frankly, it ought to be a tutorial by now as many bots as Eve has <g>. On a serious note, we have to consider the logistics of it all before we pass judgement on CCP. It may be that players can spend a few minutes (or more) isolating these potential RMT transactions whereas CCP lacks the staff (or the code as some have pointed out) to isolate these potential transactions themselves. Hence why the GMs encourage players to make them aware of such things. And, as I stated before in this thread, it may be the apparent lack of action on the part of GMs is a result of them building a larger picture (a portfolio if you will) of the actions these characters have (and are) taking, so they're not just hacking the tail of the snake off and letting the snake live.
Jame Jarl Retief	Posted - 2011.03.23 12:41:00 - [1857] Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief on 23/03/2011 12:41:11 Originally by: Consortium Agent On a serious note, we have to consider the logistics of it all before we pass judgement on CCP. It may be that players can spend a few minutes (or more) isolating these potential RMT transactions whereas CCP lacks the staff (or the code as some have pointed out) to isolate these potential transactions themselves. Hence why the GMs encourage players to make them aware of such things. They don't need professionals for this kind of tasks, so I'm really not buying the "they can't afford the staff" excuse. They could easily hire a few poor immigrants with doctorates to do this for minimum wage. Or heck, just offer internships or ask for volunteers. With the unemployment rates being what they are these days, I'm sure they can find at least a few people who would want to pad their resumes for lack of anything better to do, especially kids out of college. It's not like it's rocket surgery.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.23 12:45:00 - [1858] Originally by: Marconus Orion EDIT: My max amount of petitions has been reached but there are 10x more macro mission runners in this one system alone than I have max allowable petitions to be open. lol, that's one way to stop petitions; allow people to reach their max, then ignore them all.
Marconus Orion Global Criminal Countdown	Posted - 2011.03.23 13:06:00 - [1859] CCP, Is there anything else in the EULA that players can break that you turn a blind eye to like macros?? Anything else that if you do actually do anything about it, only results in a laughable three day ban?
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.03.23 13:41:00 - [1860] Edited by: Slate Shoa on 23/03/2011 13:42:39 My subscription interval is approaching. All I can say is: How significant CCP's announcement is, with regards to what they are doing about the hacking/botting issue, is going to be a huge factor in whether or not I resubscribe. If it turns out to be nothing, I will not resubscribe; I'd rather play Aces High II or something with the money. and no, you cannot has my stuff.

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.23 14:47:00 - [1861] Originally by: Slate Shoa Edited by: Slate Shoa on 23/03/2011 13:42:39 My subscription interval is approaching. All I can say is: How significant CCP's announcement is, with regards to what they are doing about the hacking/botting issue, is going to be a huge factor in whether or not I resubscribe. If it turns out to be nothing, I will not resubscribe; I'd rather play Aces High II or something with the money. and no, you cannot has my stuff. I'm much the same. Last time I "took the summer off" I didn't come back for 4 years. I sort of suspect I may not bother at all this time. We'll see on Friday.
Lubomir Penev Aliastra	Posted - 2011.03.23 15:16:00 - [1862] Originally by: Marconus Orion CCP, Is there anything else in the EULA that players can break that you turn a blind eye to like macros?? Anything else that if you do actually do anything about it, only results in a laughable three day ban? CCP has a hard time gaining customers so it's pretty much slap on the wrist for stuff like harassment and exploiting too (see AHARM still in game and even with two CSM candidates). They firmly believe a paying customer now is better than two in the future if the game was properly policed it seems. To get banned the most efficient way by far is to blow the whistle on cheating CCP employees. There are no macrominers in EVE
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.03.23 15:45:00 - [1863] Until CCP takes a zero tolerance stance on botting, it's going to continue. Permanently banning the offending account and all associated accounts should do the trick. Why they don't do this already is beyond me.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.23 16:14:00 - [1864] Originally by: Rykuss Until CCP takes a zero tolerance stance on botting, it's going to continue. Permanently banning the offending account and all associated accounts should do the trick. Why they don't do this already is beyond me. Because botters pay, too. They're currently trying to figure out whether or not banning the botters will have an overall negative impact on their finances. The end.
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.03.23 16:35:00 - [1865] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Originally by: Rykuss Until CCP takes a zero tolerance stance on botting, it's going to continue. Permanently banning the offending account and all associated accounts should do the trick. Why they don't do this already is beyond me. Because botters pay, too. They're currently trying to figure out whether or not banning the botters will have an overall negative impact on their finances. The end. Oh, well hell, guess since I'm a subscriber I should be able to break the EULA at my leisure. Thanks for clearing that up.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.23 16:41:00 - [1866] Originally by: Rykuss Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Originally by: Rykuss Until CCP takes a zero tolerance stance on botting, it's going to continue. Permanently banning the offending account and all associated accounts should do the trick. Why they don't do this already is beyond me. Because botters pay, too. They're currently trying to figure out whether or not banning the botters will have an overall negative impact on their finances. The end. Oh, well hell, guess since I'm a subscriber I should be able to break the EULA at my leisure. Thanks for clearing that up. Evidently, it's not that big a deal* (* in certain circumstances, of course)
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.03.23 16:48:00 - [1867] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Originally by: Rykuss Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Originally by: Rykuss Until CCP takes a zero tolerance stance on botting, it's going to continue. Permanently banning the offending account and all associated accounts should do the trick. Why they don't do this already is beyond me. Because botters pay, too. They're currently trying to figure out whether or not banning the botters will have an overall negative impact on their finances. The end. Oh, well hell, guess since I'm a subscriber I should be able to break the EULA at my leisure. Thanks for clearing that up. Evidently, it's not that big a deal* (* in certain circumstances, of course) Where are your jubblies? Eve needs moar jubblies!
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.23 16:52:00 - [1868] Originally by: Rykuss Where are your jubblies? Eve needs moar jubblies! I had nice ones, but then came the face nerf. Now I can't be arsed doing it again.
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.23 17:25:00 - [1869] lol, fun fun, grief the Jita Market bots.. Set a buy order for one of an item at .01 below the current over priced sell market (your item), force the bot to elevate and buy a bunch of stuff at the price you want to sell at =P
Marconus Orion Global Criminal Countdown	Posted - 2011.03.23 17:33:00 - [1870] Originally by: Minarete lol, fun fun, grief the Jita Market bots.. Set a buy order for one of an item at .01 below the current over priced sell market (your item), force the bot to elevate and buy a bunch of stuff at the price you want to sell at =P Sounds like a ton of work for a human to do to attempt to grief a bot when CCP should just perma grief them by perma banning their account. Again, players having to pickup the slack of dealing with botters when it is CCP's job. The list of things that can't be botted is growing shorter and shorter as time goes on. Soon it will be impossible for a player to even remotely compete in anything without having botting alts to back them up. Also CCP's lack of doing or saying anything about all of this just screams they don't give a ****. As long as you keep paying for that subscription they do not care about the quality of this game. And before any CCP comes in here with the, "If you suspect someone is macroing please fill out a petition blah, blah" line. Keep in mind we all have done that and you have done nothing. The same bots macro away non-stop. So it is not like you have not been informed who is doing it. You have simply chosen to turn a blind eye and give a giant middle finger to the humans who are actually at the keyboard playing the game.

Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.23 21:46:00 - [1871] Originally by: Marconus Orion Edited by: Marconus Orion on 23/03/2011 12:34:16 EDIT: My max amount of petitions has been reached but there are 10x more macro mission runners in this one system alone than I have max allowable petitions to be open. Add new messages to the existing petitions - that's what I do. I start off a petition with one bot report (using the formatted text at www.reportbots.com, of course) and then slam my other 10, 15, 20 whatever bots into 10, 15, 20 whatever additional messages in the same petition. When I'm done adding bots then I end it with one more message saying they can close the ticket at their leisure (which helps them get closed quicker so I can open more lol). Yes, it is a PITA and is something else I hope gets addressed soon - if rumors are correct and a new reporting tool is forthcoming from CCP then I'm sure it will allow more than 3 petitions at a time (right Sreegs?! <g>)
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.23 21:52:00 - [1872] Originally by: Consortium Agent Originally by: Marconus Orion Edited by: Marconus Orion on 23/03/2011 12:34:16 EDIT: My max amount of petitions has been reached but there are 10x more macro mission runners in this one system alone than I have max allowable petitions to be open. Add new messages to the existing petitions - that's what I do. I start off a petition with one bot report (using the formatted text at www.reportbots.com, of course) and then slam my other 10, 15, 20 whatever bots into 10, 15, 20 whatever additional messages in the same petition. When I'm done adding bots then I end it with one more message saying they can close the ticket at their leisure (which helps them get closed quicker so I can open more lol). Yes, it is a PITA and is something else I hope gets addressed soon - if rumors are correct and a new reporting tool is forthcoming from CCP then I'm sure it will allow more than 3 petitions at a time (right Sreegs?! <g>) It sounds to me like you could do with a bot to write your petitions .
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.23 21:56:00 - [1873] Originally by: Jame Jarl Retief Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief on 23/03/2011 12:41:11 Originally by: Consortium Agent On a serious note, we have to consider the logistics of it all before we pass judgement on CCP. It may be that players can spend a few minutes (or more) isolating these potential RMT transactions whereas CCP lacks the staff (or the code as some have pointed out) to isolate these potential transactions themselves. Hence why the GMs encourage players to make them aware of such things. They don't need professionals for this kind of tasks, so I'm really not buying the "they can't afford the staff" excuse. They could easily hire a few poor immigrants with doctorates to do this for minimum wage. Or heck, just offer internships or ask for volunteers. With the unemployment rates being what they are these days, I'm sure they can find at least a few people who would want to pad their resumes for lack of anything better to do, especially kids out of college. It's not like it's rocket surgery. Agreed. CCP could hire 30 GMs whose only job it is to look at bots (be they interns or just people interested in a job) - but they have already stated clearly that it's not going to happen that way. I imagine because there are way less costly and easier ways to deal with the bots from the code side (as has been pointed out many times in this thread by us developers) than to hire people to go find bots. So, nobody says they can't afford them, they just don't think hiring 30 people to do that job is a good use of their time, resources or money. And if they do something with the code side - if they take all of the information us players have been feeding them over the years and plug it into a detection system they could easily find bots, RMTers and the like. Furthermore, they could engineer the client to break the bytecode on every single release. There are lots of things they can do from a code side of things to not have to hire 30 GMs. The question on everyone's mind is - will they? Or will we get another smoke up our butt presentation that amounts to little more than a failed dev blog like we got the last time? Friday is coming up and we'll know for sure then. :)
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.23 22:45:00 - [1874] The security presentation may be web cast on friday, but the presentation itself is on Thursday at 1400 (so says the fanfest brochure) in less than 24 hours as I write this. Maybe some who sees it can give us a report?
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.03.23 22:56:00 - [1875] Why would you want a report on Friday? Crysis 2 is pre-loading as we speak...
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.23 23:24:00 - [1876] I don't want a report on Friday. I want one on Thrusday at 15:05. Was it: a) Totally awesome b) So-so, will help c) A bunch of clueless lalalalala'ing And yes, I know the trolls' prediction already.
Parah Salin McCain	Posted - 2011.03.23 23:28:00 - [1877] FEED UP THE RMT BOTTER
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.24 02:52:00 - [1878] Originally by: Parah Salin McCain FEED UP THE RMT BOTTER Dude, your face!
CTRL ALT DELETE	Posted - 2011.03.24 03:13:00 - [1879] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Originally by: Parah Salin McCain FEED UP THE RMT BOTTER Dude, your face! You can talk.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.24 04:10:00 - [1880] Originally by: Consortium Agent Any other questions? yes, what was the reason? you tried to sidestep the question, and bringing the comparison (btw, bringing SWG into an argument about EVE DOES create a comparison, wether or not you intended one sorry) into the argument makes me still wonder if you know the answer.

Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp White Angels.	Posted - 2011.03.24 08:52:00 - [1881] Originally by: Vincent Athena The security presentation may be web cast on friday, but the presentation itself is on Thursday at 1400 (so says the fanfest brochure) in less than 24 hours as I write this. Maybe some who sees it can give us a report? I wonder how long each presentation will take to get onto youtube after completion? Or will they wait a day or two before releasing it on youtube? I personally hope each presentation is individualy taped and put onto youtube as fast as possible. I'm sure someone will report on the presentation within this very forum as soon as they have the chance to do so This better not be fail CCP or you know there will be a most unholy rage in this very thread I don't know where, I don't know when... but something awful is going to happen xD
auropobia	Posted - 2011.03.24 09:30:00 - [1882] As the Topic says we are fed up!! I recently placed several orders in Genesis an was horified to see almost all of them instanly out done. I did this over time and then decided to test the market. I put in a buy order higher than the current sell order the first bot responded before the order showed up on my screen and the order was filled in seconds. The Trade bots are getting worse than the mining bots. Maybe CCP could just remove the EULA ban on botting for everyone then we would at least be equal.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.24 10:10:00 - [1883] Originally by: auropobia As the Topic says we are fed up!! I recently placed several orders in Genesis an was horified to see almost all of them instanly out done. I did this over time and then decided to test the market. I put in a buy order higher than the current sell order the first bot responded before the order showed up on my screen and the order was filled in seconds. The Trade bots are getting worse than the mining bots. Maybe CCP could just remove the EULA ban on botting for everyone then we would at least be equal. That would be the easiest way to resolve this.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.24 10:15:00 - [1884] Originally by: auropobia I put in a buy order higher than the current sell order the first bot responded before the order showed up on my screen and the order was filled in seconds. The Trade bots are getting worse than the mining bots. CCP bots, best bots.
Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous Scum Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.24 11:00:00 - [1885] Originally by: Burnharder Originally by: Consortium Agent Originally by: Marconus Orion Edited by: Marconus Orion on 23/03/2011 12:34:16 EDIT: My max amount of petitions has been reached but there are 10x more macro mission runners in this one system alone than I have max allowable petitions to be open. Add new messages to the existing petitions - that's what I do. I start off a petition with one bot report (using the formatted text at www.reportbots.com, of course) and then slam my other 10, 15, 20 whatever bots into 10, 15, 20 whatever additional messages in the same petition. When I'm done adding bots then I end it with one more message saying they can close the ticket at their leisure (which helps them get closed quicker so I can open more lol). Yes, it is a PITA and is something else I hope gets addressed soon - if rumors are correct and a new reporting tool is forthcoming from CCP then I'm sure it will allow more than 3 petitions at a time (right Sreegs?! <g>) It sounds to me like you could do with a bot to write your petitions . A bot-petitioning bot that keeps your alt AFK-cloaked, scans out the target, makes a note of his movements over a 72-H period and auto-composes a petition with all the information enclosed...? Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.24 11:31:00 - [1886] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Burnharder Originally by: Consortium Agent Originally by: Marconus Orion Edited by: Marconus Orion on 23/03/2011 12:34:16 EDIT: My max amount of petitions has been reached but there are 10x more macro mission runners in this one system alone than I have max allowable petitions to be open. Add new messages to the existing petitions - that's what I do. I start off a petition with one bot report (using the formatted text at www.reportbots.com, of course) and then slam my other 10, 15, 20 whatever bots into 10, 15, 20 whatever additional messages in the same petition. When I'm done adding bots then I end it with one more message saying they can close the ticket at their leisure (which helps them get closed quicker so I can open more lol). Yes, it is a PITA and is something else I hope gets addressed soon - if rumors are correct and a new reporting tool is forthcoming from CCP then I'm sure it will allow more than 3 petitions at a time (right Sreegs?! <g>) It sounds to me like you could do with a bot to write your petitions . A bot-petitioning bot that keeps your alt AFK-cloaked, scans out the target, makes a note of his movements over a 72-H period and auto-composes a petition with all the information enclosed...? Now if they'd only follow through on their plan to remove DT. You could minimize Eve, and have bots reported for months on end. Or leave your own bot running for months on end safely. Hey now!
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.03.24 11:47:00 - [1887] bot reporting bots reporting each others -> EVE implodes.
Memorya	Posted - 2011.03.24 12:37:00 - [1888] Really interested to hear info. from ccp. I hope it's positive. ------------------------ English is my 5th. Language.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.24 13:56:00 - [1889] It appears that the security presentation got moved from Friday @ 1800 to 1400 today. As streaming is only available on Friday/Saturday it appears we don't get to see what Sreegs says.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.24 14:09:00 - [1890] Presentations are not being streamed. Looking at the TV schedule and the fanfest schedule I noted none of them matched up in time or in some cases, length. They are being recorded and re-broadcast. Hence I think we will see the security one Friday. But I hope someone will report on it here, in a few hours, after they see it in person. Bots writing petitions: I think as you can do the petition out of game, use of such a bot is not covered by the EULA.

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.24 14:11:00 - [1891] Originally by: Vincent Athena Presentations are not being streamed. Looking at the TV schedule and the fanfest schedule I noted none of them matched up in time or in some cases, length. They are being recorded and re-broadcast. Hence I think we will see the security one Friday. But I hope someone will report on it here, in a few hours, after they see it in person. So the "live stream" is recorded? Outstanding
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.24 14:34:00 - [1892] Edited by: Vincent Athena on 24/03/2011 14:37:57 You got to read the big print: "Fanfest Video Stream û The next best thing to being at Fanfest 2011" Note the absence of the word "live". Edit: And right after I wrote the above I find some big print that does say "live", so now I don't know what they are doing. Good job CCP.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.24 14:40:00 - [1893] Edited by: Othran on 24/03/2011 14:40:02 Yeah its fairly prominent - Live Stream of Fanfest 2011 What's even more amusing is that they expect people to PAY for a recorded "Live Stream" that can't be rewound. You couldn't make this up if you tried
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.24 15:17:00 - [1894] OK, the security presentation should be over. What happened?
Everard Headbutt	Posted - 2011.03.24 15:21:00 - [1895] Originally by: Vincent Athena OK, the security presentation should be over. What happened? few images in the last post here http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=39619&start=75
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.24 15:21:00 - [1896] Originally by: Vincent Athena OK, the security presentation should be over. What happened? From the other thread the tl;dr seems to be : a) you can buy a security token; b) there will be a "report bot" right click option - but not yet. Better be more than that. Really
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.03.24 15:52:00 - [1897] So, seems I was correct in my prediction that there would be corporate-speak about not much of anything at all. Looking forward to those that tried shouting me down unsubbing and helping the rest of us to enjoy the game more, but since they are who they are and have absolutely NO credibility, I know in my heart of hearts that their word will prove to be untrue and we will be saddled with their delusions of grandeur for much, much longer.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.24 16:06:00 - [1898] Seems there is a bit more than "report bots" "Background bot detection in place on TQ the last few days. Some accounts lost access today"
Everard Headbutt	Posted - 2011.03.24 16:08:00 - [1899] Originally by: Vincent Athena Some accounts lost access today" Question is will CCP quietly give them back after a couple of days without telling the playerbase like they have numerous times in the past 5 years or so?
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.24 16:11:00 - [1900] Maybe, but that background bot detector will still be there. I hope CCP evolves it to keep up with evolving bots.

Lubomir Penev Aliastra	Posted - 2011.03.24 16:12:00 - [1901] Originally by: Vincent Athena Seems there is a bit more than "report bots" "Background bot detection in place on TQ the last few days. Some accounts lost access today" Doesn't look like it got any impact whatsoever. Unholy rage banned a few thousands at once at least... There are no macrominers in EVE
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.03.24 16:14:00 - [1902] Yeah, there's not a whole of anything there in the way of information. Background bot detection could, literally, mean anything, and nothing there speaks to anything more than what they have always had, players reporting suspected bots. If it's algorithm based, there will be a whole lot of false positives, which will affect the player base much more than some whiners unsubbing over no action. Some accounts lost access today? Hell, some accounts lose access EVERY day. In the end, for those that want something to hang their hat on, no matter how flimsy, this will quiet them down for a day or two. For those that look on CCP statements of intent with a more realistic, jaundiced, eye, there isn't any information here that will change a single mind.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.24 16:33:00 - [1903] Originally by: Calistai Huranu But there will be optional key fob's you can purchase for your account's.. Sweet. What is this?
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.24 16:35:00 - [1904] Well the thing is that we can easily check what's going on - dotlan gives you the ability to view npc kills from weeks ago. It all depends on one thing - what are the penalties and escalated penalties for repeat offenders? If they're meaningless then "background monitoring", no matter how sophisticated, will solve precisely nothing. If theres a rapid escalation of penalties then it'll take out the casual/personal botters which is a start.
Calistai Huranu Red Federation	Posted - 2011.03.24 16:42:00 - [1905] Originally by: CCP Sreegs I think there was significantly more meat than that, but I'm willing to change your mind with actual action. The presentation will be available on Youtube in the next day or so and a Devblog will be published shortly thereafter. Also I'll be hanging out around here to discuss things, but it would be just ducky if you could watch the presentation as background material. <3 Looking forward to seeing it, and reading the devblog then. Just hopeful there's alot more meat than the titbit's we've had so far on it. i'm not quite ready to go full bittervet yet
Marcus D'Eriellius Gallente Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2011.03.24 17:34:00 - [1906] Couple of questions: I've already got an RSA SecurID key for work. Rather than carry 2 can I link that to my account? If I link my account to a RSA key and I want to log when I don't have the key handy can I revert to character challenge?

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.24 18:06:00 - [1907] Originally by: Marcus D'Eriellius Couple of questions: I've already got an RSA SecurID key for work. Rather than carry 2 can I link that to my account? If I link my account to a RSA key and I want to log when I don't have the key handy can I revert to character challenge? Our vendor isn't RSA it's Vasco. Unfortunately even if your work used the same vendor they'd have to federate with us in order to do so. This is also gone over in more detail in the presentation.

Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp White Angels.	Posted - 2011.03.24 19:30:00 - [1908] "Background bot detection in place on TQ the last few days. Some accounts lost access today. Slow burn." So, does this mean an automated program going through account data to detect bots on a more regular basis? If so, how long would it take to cycle through all active EVE accounts and/or data? ""Portrait->report bot" menu coming soon(tm)" So now there will actually be a "report bot" feature Will this act in concert with an automated detection system? At least it free up gms from having to actually read through bot petitions And a new digipass number generator to hopefully slow down hackers: Linkage I don't know where, I don't know when... but something awful is going to happen xD
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.25 00:10:00 - [1909] Good start. Tokens have been requested in the past, good to see it being done. Please find a way to ship them to other countries without charging as much as Celestis does to take your ashes into space. Background bot detection: Do you mean there was no automatic flagging of any kind previously? Holy crap. No wonder the place is overrun. Please make sure you punish people who abuse the "report bot" feature, like you do with the "report ISK spammer" feature. And don't let it be acted upon automatically. I'd hate to see alliances using it in concert to bump hostile titan/supercarrier/FC pilots off the server even temporarily. We'll be watching for effects. Make it grandiose! I want to see a significant dent in these scumbags warping and polluting the game.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.03.25 00:24:00 - [1910] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Please make sure you punish people who abuse the "report bot" feature, like you do with the "report ISK spammer" feature. And don't let it be acted upon automatically. I'd hate to see alliances using it in concert to bump hostile titan/supercarrier/FC pilots off the server even temporarily. This may be the first thing you've said I actually agree with, but there really has to be more, doesn't there? It's not just one alliance metagaming another, it's gonna be wardeccers flooding with reports of their targets, and the targets flooding back, and anyone who thinks someone else looked at them funny, etc., etc., etc. I saw the GM's post to me above and, of course, will wait and see what was really said, but even that does not speak to when or how them implement things. The bottom line is that they did not have enough staff to investigate petitions previously, so now they've made it easier to substantially increase the number of reports and ????

Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.25 00:35:00 - [1911] Well hopefully player petitions and automatic analysis will combine to give a solid "This account needs looking at" indicator so that the actual investigating that needs to be done by staff is reduced. EG If a character is reported by a player but not flagged by any automatic system, it'd be given a low investigative priority.
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.03.25 03:49:00 - [1912] Edited by: Paul Mustaka Hekard on 25/03/2011 03:56:03 Edited by: Paul Mustaka Hekard on 25/03/2011 03:54:17 oh no's...lost access to accounts. It must be a "slow burn" indeed; same batch of bots still churning the skies in Kronsur (reported btw). Seriously, all a GM would have to do is spend 30 minutes there to bag about 10 to 20 accounts. This ** remains pretty ing lame. The EvE sandbox relies on the ability of the economy to function without bias. It is one of the primary selling points of the game. If CCP cannot deliver on reducing the bias that bots throw into the economy, why even pay for this **. At the end of the day; CCP=fraud
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.03.25 05:55:00 - [1913] Originally by: Paul Mustaka Hekard Seriously, all a GM would have to do is spend 30 minutes there to bag about 10 to 20 accounts. How do you tell that someone is botting while observing them for just half an hour? Do you have the gift of omniscience? -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.03.25 06:11:00 - [1914] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Xylengra Yeah, there's not a whole of anything there in the way of information. Background bot detection could, literally, mean anything, and nothing there speaks to anything more than what they have always had, players reporting suspected bots. If it's algorithm based, there will be a whole lot of false positives, which will affect the player base much more than some whiners unsubbing over no action. Some accounts lost access today? Hell, some accounts lose access EVERY day. In the end, for those that want something to hang their hat on, no matter how flimsy, this will quiet them down for a day or two. For those that look on CCP statements of intent with a more realistic, jaundiced, eye, there isn't any information here that will change a single mind. I think there was significantly more meat than that, but I'm willing to change your mind with actual action. The presentation will be available on Youtube in the next day or so and a Devblog will be published shortly thereafter. Also I'll be hanging out around here to discuss things, but it would be just ducky if you could watch the presentation as background material. <3 I look forward to those and really hope you've got a solid plan in place to deal with the botters. I noticed a few bots were absent today in my home system but there are still quite a few left. Anyway, thanks for the info.
Mart Mermir	Posted - 2011.03.25 10:13:00 - [1915] http://www.publicdemands.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?6902-CCP-develops-tools-to-detect-botting Quote: I heared about this "security team" 2-3 weeks ago but gathering information on their work via my sources proved to be difficult as they kept a pretty decent lid on their work internally. So now that they've come out and shown their cards and I must say I'm not impressed. "We've banned 1000-2000 accounts this morning" good for you CCP! I'm still botting 23/7 with 12 accounts though -- an acquaintance of mine has been botting with 180+ accounts for over 3 months now and you did not even manage to catch him. They haven't dented the botting population one bit and now they've lost the element of suprise, awesome job! Anyway, from what has been made public they are currently running two levels of simple detection one being pattern recognition and the other "How long has someone been online"-detection. Both these forms of detection can be avoided easily, RoidRipper 3+ has already been rolled out with added randomization. Now that the cat is out of the bag information should flow more freely throughout CCP so I'm waiting for a response of some of my sources and if I hear more I'll be sure to inform the community.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.25 11:22:00 - [1916] Originally by: Mara Rinn Originally by: Paul Mustaka Hekard Seriously, all a GM would have to do is spend 30 minutes there to bag about 10 to 20 accounts. How do you tell that someone is botting while observing them for just half an hour? Do you have the gift of omniscience? The better question would be... how can you sit in Kronsur for 30 minutes and not know it's infested with bots? Are you blind? :)

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.25 15:07:00 - [1917] Originally by: Mart Mermir Edited by: Mart Mermir on 25/03/2011 10:26:14 http://www.publicdemands.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?6902-CCP-develops-tools-to-detect-botting Quote: I heared about this "security team" 2-3 weeks ago but gathering information on their work via my sources proved to be difficult as they kept a pretty decent lid on their work internally. So now that they've come out and shown their cards and I must say I'm not impressed. "We've banned 1000-2000 accounts this morning" good for you CCP! I'm still botting 23/7 with 12 accounts though -- an acquaintance of mine has been botting with 180+ accounts for over 3 months now and you did not even manage to catch him. They haven't dented the botting population one bit and now they've lost the element of suprise, awesome job! Anyway, from what has been made public they are currently running two levels of simple detection one being pattern recognition and the other "How long has someone been online"-detection. Both these forms of detection can be avoided easily, RoidRipper 3+ has already been rolled out with added randomization. Now that the cat is out of the bag information should flow more freely throughout CCP so I'm waiting for a response of some of my sources and if I hear more I'll be sure to inform the community. Edit: I have great idea, CCP shouldn't ban bots, they should just tag them. So in hi sec anyone can kill them, and in 0.0 anyone can jump in system and warp to them just by right clicking on them and kill them. A few hundred of the accounts that were banned were based on a roid reaver detection. Sour grapes.

Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.03.25 15:55:00 - [1918] Questions: 1) What is CCP going to do to make sure player reports/petitions of bots are: a) not abused? b) acted upon (unlike in the past)? 2) What is CCP going to do to continually prove to the playerbase that bans for botting are: a) occurring at a significant rate (ex: not one botter per day)? b) severe enough to be a significant deterrence (ex: not one day bans)? My take on the subject: Any feature to report bots is meaningless unless CCP can prove that they are continuously acting upon player reports of bots. Playerbase confidence in CCP's willingness to act on player reports must be restored. The bans must also be significant in penalty and rate of occurrence.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.25 17:19:00 - [1919] Originally by: Slate Shoa Questions: 1) What is CCP going to do to make sure player reports/petitions of bots are: a) not abused? b) acted upon (unlike in the past)? 2) What is CCP going to do to continually prove to the playerbase that bans for botting are: a) occurring at a significant rate (ex: not one botter per day)? b) severe enough to be a significant deterrence (ex: not one day bans)? My take on the subject: Any feature to report bots is meaningless unless CCP can prove that they are continuously acting upon player reports of bots. Playerbase confidence in CCP's willingness to act on player reports must be restored. The bans must also be significant in penalty and rate of occurrence. The presentation addresses this specifically.

Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:02:00 - [1920] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Slate Shoa Questions: 1) What is CCP going to do to make sure player reports/petitions of bots are: a) not abused? b) acted upon (unlike in the past)? 2) What is CCP going to do to continually prove to the playerbase that bans for botting are: a) occurring at a significant rate (ex: not one botter per day)? b) severe enough to be a significant deterrence (ex: not one day bans)? My take on the subject: Any feature to report bots is meaningless unless CCP can prove that they are continuously acting upon player reports of bots. Playerbase confidence in CCP's willingness to act on player reports must be restored. The bans must also be significant in penalty and rate of occurrence. The presentation addresses this specifically. Originally by: CCP Sreegs The presentation will be available on Youtube in the next day or so and a Devblog will be published shortly thereafter. Thanks for the reply Sreegs. I'm looking forward to the video and Devblog.

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:08:00 - [1921] Claudio. You could have said he was working for you :) I think we met once when I contracted for the evil empire (Cisco). Can't remember where - Triangle Park maybe. Long time ago now anyway....
Devil's Call Caldari Blue Republic	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:09:00 - [1922] Originally by: Slate Shoa Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Slate Shoa Questions: 1) What is CCP going to do to make sure player reports/petitions of bots are: a) not abused? b) acted upon (unlike in the past)? 2) What is CCP going to do to continually prove to the playerbase that bans for botting are: a) occurring at a significant rate (ex: not one botter per day)? b) severe enough to be a significant deterrence (ex: not one day bans)? My take on the subject: Any feature to report bots is meaningless unless CCP can prove that they are continuously acting upon player reports of bots. Playerbase confidence in CCP's willingness to act on player reports must be restored. The bans must also be significant in penalty and rate of occurrence. The presentation addresses this specifically. Originally by: CCP Sreegs The presentation will be available on Youtube in the next day or so and a Devblog will be published shortly thereafter. Thanks for the reply Sreegs. I'm looking forward to the video and Devblog. Same here, can't wait. ----------------------------------------------- ôAll fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns.ö
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:14:00 - [1923] Edited by: Othran on 25/03/2011 18:15:16 Originally by: Devil's Call Originally by: Slate Shoa Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Slate Shoa Questions: 1) What is CCP going to do to make sure player reports/petitions of bots are: a) not abused? b) acted upon (unlike in the past)? 2) What is CCP going to do to continually prove to the playerbase that bans for botting are: a) occurring at a significant rate (ex: not one botter per day)? b) severe enough to be a significant deterrence (ex: not one day bans)? My take on the subject: Any feature to report bots is meaningless unless CCP can prove that they are continuously acting upon player reports of bots. Playerbase confidence in CCP's willingness to act on player reports must be restored. The bans must also be significant in penalty and rate of occurrence. The presentation addresses this specifically. Originally by: CCP Sreegs The presentation will be available on Youtube in the next day or so and a Devblog will be published shortly thereafter. Thanks for the reply Sreegs. I'm looking forward to the video and Devblog. Same here, can't wait. Its about half-way over now. Decent stuff, Claudio gives it more credence for me, the three strikes policy is well overdue and should be part of the EULA so people know where they stand.
Juil Gallente Phoenix Industries Pty. Ltd.	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:19:00 - [1924] Watching the actual pres you did right now but I have a few questions/observations.. and I do like the fact you have kept your word on getting this up. 1. Will we be limited to having to give you (ccp) MORE money for a stuipid fob that can only be used on eve.. OR will you be doing the same as Blizzard did and allow us the option of downloading a app that does the same linked to our account for iphone, etc. ? 2. Botting - you make a few points on this.. but some of it is 'soon' still with no time frame obviously (the report botting) 2 a. - The Policy.. thank you it's about time! 2 b. - Detecting/Behavioural: Ok you do even a 5th of what you and the guy who's name i didn't catch (it's 5am and i've been up all day/night just to try and see this one section) have said then I'll be impressed. 3. Cheating - ok he was a little hard to understand when your falling asleep but great basically you tell us yeah we know how your doing it we ain't gonna tell you much.. can understand that but again.. action speaks louder then words... WE HAVE been Patient.. sorry Screegs but we have.. until there is a visable actual show of the botting etc being hit then a lot of this is just words.. with all of this it's nice to see that you got all this up in the time frame.. I give you credit for this and nod that you have done what you said. sorry this is disjointed as I said 5am.. i'll likely add to this later when i'm awake ;) so if you can answer the fob stuff i'll likely comment more on the botting part again later when my brains working. Also good job on getting it up as quick as you did. - Juil Intergrated Information Services Information is Power
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:30:00 - [1925] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 25/03/2011 18:35:03 tl;dr of the presentation - feel free to bot until you receive the first-strike (temp) ban. [if the 2nd ban is 30 days, first ban will probably be between 5-10 days, so no big deal] How anyone can read this as "now is the perfect time to stop botting" is beyond me... now botters have the explicit assurance they won't get permabanned on 1st or 2nd detected offense. So the logical thing to do is bot shamelessly until you receive the 1st ban, then sell your botting characters for ISK (or the tainted account for RL money), open a new account, funnel the ISK of the character sale from the tainted to the new account and leave the old account alone.
Devil's Call Caldari Blue Republic	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:35:00 - [1926] Watching the live stream as we speak ye. http://fanfest.eveonline.com/en/stream/free ----------------------------------------------- ôAll fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns.ö
Rika Jones	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:40:00 - [1927] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 25/03/2011 18:35:03 tl;dr of the presentation - feel free to bot until you receive the first-strike (temp) ban. [if the 2nd ban is 30 days, first ban will probably be between 5-10 days, so no big deal] How anyone can read this as "now is the perfect time to stop botting" is beyond me... now botters have the explicit assurance they won't get permabanned on 1st or 2nd detected offense. So the logical thing to do is bot shamelessly until you receive the 1st ban, then sell your botting characters for ISK (or the tainted account for RL money), open a new account, funnel the ISK of the character sale from the tainted to the new account and leave the old account alone. It would be a far greater sin if they banned legitimate players whose behavior tripped their automation. To make it so that false-positives don't ruin a relationship between customers and CCP, a graduated, escalating response is necessary.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:42:00 - [1928] Edited by: Othran on 25/03/2011 18:43:17 Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 25/03/2011 18:35:03 tl;dr of the presentation - feel free to bot until you receive the first-strike (temp) ban. [if the 2nd ban is 30 days, first ban will probably be between 5-10 days, so no big deal] How anyone can read this as "now is the perfect time to stop botting" is beyond me... now botters have the explicit assurance they won't get permabanned on 1st or 2nd detected offense. So the logical thing to do is bot shamelessly until you receive the 1st ban, then sell your botting characters for ISK (or the tainted account for RL money), open a new account, funnel the ISK of the character sale from the tainted to the new account and leave the old account alone. Ummm Claudio is good. Very very good at heuristics and behavioural analysis of code IIRC. Sreegs seems like a decent BOFH - he seems like enough of a b*stard to get the rest of the CCP culture changed. Either that or he'll get fired. Do note that (IMHO) the previous detection methods have been extremely crude. I suspect now that you'll get picked up as suspect very soon and once a first ban arrives I'd suspect your accounts will be flagged for "enhanced" monitoring for a few months. I like Sreegs even though he's American - at least he doesn't say "you folks" which is my abiding memory of Triangle Park (NC)
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:46:00 - [1929] He also said the penalties will be increased if the initial ones are ineffective. Sreegs: Maybe there needs to be some character sale ban on accounts that have gotten bot bans. If you get caught botting, you cannot sell that character for a few weeks, or maybe even "one strike, and no character sale, ever". Also there is a disclosure requirement of character sales. Number of times banned for botting should be part of that disclosure.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:48:00 - [1930] Edited by: Othran on 25/03/2011 18:53:55 He has the right instincts - eg all botting isk removed. I hope he's allowed to follow through on his instincts. Edit - Also Sreegs I now know from watching you that if anti-botting fails then its not down to you or Claudio. So don't fail or the only conclusion is that CCP (the company) overruled you. Best of luck.

Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:51:00 - [1931] Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 25/03/2011 18:53:17 Originally by: Devil's Call Watching the live stream as we speak ye. Is the bald guy Andy Parsons from Mock The Week?
Reddx Panther	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:53:00 - [1932] Imho 1. Botting is part of the game play, so you can't break it overnight without changing the game 2. At the source of botting is poor game design - activities that can be automatized easily shouldn't be source of in-game rewards 3. Ultimately, botting will/should become integral part of the game
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:55:00 - [1933] Originally by: Reddx Panther Imho 1. Botting is part of the game play, so you can't break it overnight without changing the game 2. At the source of botting is poor game design - activities that can be automatized easily shouldn't be source of in-game rewards 3. Ultimately, botting will/should become integral part of the game Take the troll elsewhere f*ckwit.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.25 18:55:00 - [1934] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 25/03/2011 18:53:17 Originally by: Devil's Call Watching the live stream as we speak ye. Is the bald guy Andy Parsons from Mock The Week? nah... he's just a funny goon.
Yuda Mann	Posted - 2011.03.25 19:21:00 - [1935] Originally by: Reddx Panther 2. At the source of botting is poor game design - activities that can be automatized easily shouldn't be source of in-game rewards Just shows how little you know. Some of the bots out there do very complex things in game so your point is ridiculous. The really good bots can OCR and interface with the client, unlike the crappy ones that just record keyboard and mouse macros. You can't tell the difference between an OCR'ing macro and someone with aspergers unless you watch them over a long period of time and do multiple tests. HI!
Everard Headbutt	Posted - 2011.03.25 19:46:00 - [1936] One of the biggest problems is surely the client itself and the amount of information sent to and from it, hence why you keep hearing of exploits that allow autopiloting to warp to zero and numerous other things? Is it not a time for a total rewrite of the client to remove this ****e?
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.25 20:27:00 - [1937] Edited by: Othran on 25/03/2011 20:29:02 Originally by: Everard Headbutt One of the biggest problems is surely the client itself and the amount of information sent to and from it, hence why you keep hearing of exploits that allow autopiloting to warp to zero and numerous other things? Is it not a time for a total rewrite of the client to remove this ****e? That's why Claudio is there. A rewrite is impractical yet CCP know there have been code leaks in the past. So you need someone with the experience (and talent - you need to think differently to other people to do IDS effectively) to analyse the behaviour of your existing code and then spot the anomalies and potential network exploits. IF there is actually a will to ban botters then I reckon the security team will make a significant difference. However in the past CCP have done little to engender trust that they wish to seriously tackle the issue. Wait and see time really. I'm watching Stain and points East on dotlan/in-game - if there's a will to fix the cheating issues then it'll show up there first. Likewise when/if they stop the crackdown that's where we'll see it first. 7/10 on making the right noises. Final score pending.....
Darth Vapour	Posted - 2011.03.26 08:34:00 - [1938] Edited by: Darth Vapour on 26/03/2011 08:34:51 Originally by: Yuda Mann Just shows how little you know. Some of the bots out there do very complex things in game so your point is ridiculous. The really good bots can OCR and interface with the client, unlike the crappy ones that just record keyboard and mouse macros. You can't tell the difference between an OCR'ing macro and someone with aspergers unless you watch them over a long period of time and do multiple tests. Quite true, because bot maker have to compete with another some have gotten very good at it. Technically they will always be better then CCP so CCP's efforts would be much better spent data mining behaviour of bot users and RMT clients instead of pretending they can outsmart the bot makers in coding.
Mikel Laurentson	Posted - 2011.03.26 10:59:00 - [1939] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Vincent Athena Seems there is a bit more than "report bots" "Background bot detection in place on TQ the last few days. Some accounts lost access today" Doesn't look like it got any impact whatsoever. Unholy rage banned a few thousands at once at least... Tiny image, is why. At 19h, accounts online suddenly drops by a few pixels. Which, given the scale, could be anywhere between 500 and 1500. There's a weird smoothing out a bit later, which could be ban rate equalling login rate. Also, that's a live link, so this will make no sense at all in a week.
Lubomir Penev Aliastra	Posted - 2011.03.26 22:46:00 - [1940] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Slate Shoa Questions: 1) What is CCP going to do to make sure player reports/petitions of bots are: a) not abused? b) acted upon (unlike in the past)? 2) What is CCP going to do to continually prove to the playerbase that bans for botting are: a) occurring at a significant rate (ex: not one botter per day)? b) severe enough to be a significant deterrence (ex: not one day bans)? My take on the subject: Any feature to report bots is meaningless unless CCP can prove that they are continuously acting upon player reports of bots. Playerbase confidence in CCP's willingness to act on player reports must be restored. The bans must also be significant in penalty and rate of occurrence. The presentation addresses this specifically. We are the next day or so. Link for presentation/slides? There are no macrominers in EVE

Kappas Katamara	Posted - 2011.03.26 23:17:00 - [1941] Originally by: Macro Developer For those living under a rock CCP has announced that they are stepping up bot detection and we have been seeing some fruits of their labor already. What does this mean for RoidReaver? We'll need to adjust RoidReaver to get around their detection methods, simple. We need to use the information from our sources to further improve RoidReaver. What does this mean for you? I would advise all our users to stop user RoidReaver until we can get a grip on the situation. Changed name of macro to avoid advertising it.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.27 00:40:00 - [1942] From the thread Kappas got his quote... Originally by: Banned Dude Yesterday evening i read this forum and saw the thread about CCP looking for botters. I stopped my bots a couple hours later and went to bed. Woke up, logged in, played for a couple hours before downtime and fired up my 2nd PC and the VMware machines for when the servers come back up. When i saw the OK status and a couple thousand people online i fired up a real client on my main pc (no RR) because the downtime caught me away from my home system. BAM, message reads "User XXXXXX is banned - Reason : EULA / TOS violation : Macro use" "Until 2011-XX-XX" I tried my alt straight afterwards, same message. I was using the free version of RR since i don't fly in low sec i find gate camping an utterly pathetic form of PvP. Anyhow, CCP got me, i deserved the punishment. If i get my accounts back intact i wont bot again and go for legit duo hulk+orca to make ISK. Most likely join a harvesting corp too. IMO, i don't see what all the fuss about bots is. Most are in high sec and usually don't interfere with other players' gameplay. I mean bots could easily be NPCs or something. Personally i dont mind bots in any game, unless ofc they are spamming the chat with gold selling messages while im trying to have a decent convo in it. I dont even understand how ****ed up in the head someone needs to be to go on an evil witch bot hunt. How can you possibly have fun doing that? lol
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.27 04:03:00 - [1943] Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 27/03/2011 04:05:46 ok... so how do they tell the difference between botters an miners? mining and hauling is pretty damn repetitive. How is the in place software gonna tell who are botting and who are mining? I mean if I got banned for playing the game... yeah kiss this **** goodbye lol
Kappas Katamara	Posted - 2011.03.27 04:19:00 - [1944] Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 27/03/2011 04:05:46 ok... so how do they tell the difference between botters an miners? mining and hauling is pretty damn repetitive. How is the in place software gonna tell who are botting and who are mining? I mean if I got banned for playing the game... yeah kiss this **** goodbye lol No. You got banned for botting.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.27 04:29:00 - [1945] Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 27/03/2011 04:05:46 ok... so how do they tell the difference between botters an miners? mining and hauling is pretty damn repetitive. How is the in place software gonna tell who are botting and who are mining? I mean if I got banned for playing the game... yeah kiss this **** goodbye lol CCP Sreegs has said that they have gotten the botting software for themselves. They have decompiled them. They know how they works, they know what to look for. And when the bots are "adjusted", CCP will get the new ones too. To all bot users: Stop. Botting is not welcome here.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.27 06:06:00 - [1946] Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 27/03/2011 06:10:06 Originally by: Kappas Katamara Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 27/03/2011 04:05:46 ok... so how do they tell the difference between botters an miners? mining and hauling is pretty damn repetitive. How is the in place software gonna tell who are botting and who are mining? I mean if I got banned for playing the game... yeah kiss this ** goodbye lol No. You got banned for botting. PLEASE learn to read before banging your head on the keyboard and posting. especially the part where I said "IF I GOT BANNED" Originally by:** Vincent Athena To all bot users: Stop. Botting is not welcome here. this would be true if it wasnt a 3 strike system. If youre botting and get caught once, you get a 30 day hike. twice permaban imo. Cause if you dont get the point after a 30 day vacation you arent GONNA get it. Then again, ill believe it when we start seeing the bots that have been reported for 2+ years getting permabanned. Oh by the way, is this gonna be retroactive? The bots petitioned for 2 years or so gonna get it first, or are they getting a clean slate and 3 strikes?
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.03.27 06:16:00 - [1947] Yep... player driven economy has no place for bots. What is different in Eve's fight against bots and rmt compared to many other MMOs is that here most people actually do care, because botting and rmt really hurt their own economy in long term. As long majority of players support the fight against the bots and rmt, we will keep it under control. It is important that botting is openly discussed and that people are aware how some people may try to cheat. It is even more important that all cheaters are reported. It is really excellent thing that CCP is finally doing something about this issue. I hope that it will continue and that many alliances and corporations will join the fight by having zero tolerance on players who will be found botting or buying/selling isk thru rmt market. Also information about legal ways to obtain iskies with real world currency should be distributed more efficiently to our new players. Many of them may go to rmt sites just because they don't know what plex is or how it works. Lets show Eve some love and keep the space clean from cheating scum :) ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.27 06:43:00 - [1948] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 27/03/2011 06:44:16 Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Yep... player driven economy has no place for bots. it's a CCP driven economy anyways. Sreeg's answer to "won't banning bots cause all kind of economic problems in EVE" was basically "no big deal, if that happens we'll just adjust spawn rates to compensate" I think players tend to take the "sandbox" much more seriously than CCP (EyjoG buying your PLEX, trolololol ).
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.03.27 08:40:00 - [1949] can someone say to me what was said on fanfest about botting? in short bullets... i am finding on many places some hints... but its all unclear... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
coolzero Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.27 08:45:00 - [1950] Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 27/03/2011 04:05:46 ok... so how do they tell the difference between botters an miners? mining and hauling is pretty damn repetitive. How is the in place software gonna tell who are botting and who are mining? I mean if I got banned for playing the game... yeah kiss this **** goodbye lol CCP Sreegs has said that they have gotten the botting software for themselves. They have decompiled them. They know how they works, they know what to look for. And when the bots are "adjusted", CCP will get the new ones too. To all bot users: Stop. Botting is not welcome here. has this been said on the fanfest? any video feed on this part. closing my 2 accounts untill CCP takes steps agains botting and keeps on hunting them...only then ill return. Jack of all trades, master of none...

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.27 09:31:00 - [1951] Edited by: Othran on 27/03/2011 09:31:59 Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae can someone say to me what was said on fanfest about botting? in short bullets... i am finding on many places some hints... but its all unclear... What I got from it : 1) Background bot monitoring/detection software is in place - a load of people (1000 or so) who used RoidReaver got banned; 2) Current GM "decisions" on macroing s/w are now basically null and void. The security team will make the calls now, not random GMs. The ToS and EULA will be the final arbiter of decisions - where there's a conflict then ToS/EULA wins; 3) No mass banning, slow burn as evidence is accumulated; 4) Report Bot menu option as petitions weren't working effectively; 5) Three strikes and you're out - unspecified ban for first offence, 30 days for second, permaban on third offence. I suspect that none of the ratting bots have been hit yet. There's one system "out east" which I've been watching for 3 months now - I know who the bots are, I know the typical ratting figures per day and theres no change visible yet. Likewise there's another system in Stain that I've been watching for months - I'm hoping to see a change in ratting figures fairly soon, certainly before 20 April when I have to decide whether to resub or not. We'll see.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.27 10:03:00 - [1952] Originally by: Othran 1) Background bot monitoring/detection software is in place - a load of people (1000 or so) who used RoidReaver got banned; source for numbers? Quote: 2) Current GM "decisions" on macroing s/w are now basically null and void. The security team will make the calls now, not random GMs. The ToS and EULA will be the final arbiter of decisions - where there's a conflict then ToS/EULA wins; so theyre doing what they should have been doing all along then? Enforcing the ToS/EULA? Hope that works better than it ever has in the past Quote: 3) No mass banning, slow burn as evidence is accumulated; 1000 IS mass, hence why I asked about your numbers above
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.27 10:07:00 - [1953] Sreegs said several hundred in the presentation and then at another point mentioned RoidReaver and 1000. Can't remember whether it was in response to a question on forums or live. Anyway 1000 accounts out of 360,000 is hardly a "mass banning". Its 0.28% of the active accounts
Everard Headbutt	Posted - 2011.03.27 10:16:00 - [1954] Originally by: Othran What I got from it : 1) Background bot monitoring/detection software is in place - a load of people (1000 or so) who used RoidReaver got banned; 2) Current GM "decisions" on macroing s/w are now basically null and void. The security team will make the calls now, not random GMs. The ToS and EULA will be the final arbiter of decisions - where there's a conflict then ToS/EULA wins; 3) No mass banning, slow burn as evidence is accumulated; 4) Report Bot menu option as petitions weren't working effectively; 5) Three strikes and you're out - unspecified ban for first offence, 30 days for second, permaban on third offence. I suspect that none of the ratting bots have been hit yet. There's one system "out east" which I've been watching for 3 months now - I know who the bots are, I know the typical ratting figures per day and theres no change visible yet. Likewise there's another system in Stain that I've been watching for months - I'm hoping to see a change in ratting figures fairly soon, certainly before 20 April when I have to decide whether to resub or not. We'll see. Didn't see the whole presentation (still waiting for it to be upped to youtube) but didn't sreegs say he wanted the eula to be the final word, but it depended on people higher up in the chain who still hadn't made a decision?
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.27 10:17:00 - [1955] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 27/03/2011 10:17:38 Originally by: Othran Sreegs said several hundred in the presentation and then at another point mentioned RoidReaver and 1000. Can't remember whether it was in response to a question on forums or live. there are some complaints on the (public) forums of a popular mining bot with a name that is similar to RoidReaver but the whole thread is only about 30 posts with about 5-10 people complaining about having some of their accounts banned. Interestingly enough the bot author announces that he has "been given a general sense of the detection routines currently used" by his "source". (never heard of a bot called "RoidReaver" so either it's some obscure mining bot or CCP just uses it as a generic name so as not to advertise specific bots)
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.27 10:24:00 - [1956] Originally by: Everard Headbutt Didn't see the whole presentation (still waiting for it to be upped to youtube) but didn't sreegs say he wanted the eula to be the final word, but it depended on people higher up in the chain who still hadn't made a decision? Yes but I think the intent here is that if the EULA/ToS doesn't allow some s/w which common sense says it should then the EULA/ToS needs to be rewritten so it explicitly DOES allow that s/w. Having GMs (even senior ones) effectively undermining a legal agreement shouldn't be happening at all. The message was very much "this is the security teams' area now" - or at least that's what I got from it.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.27 10:26:00 - [1957] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein (never heard of a bot called "RoidReaver" so either it's some obscure mining bot or CCP just uses it as a generic name so as not to advertise specific bots) Nor have I - he actually mentioned it in this thread, he may have called it a different name at the presentation, can't remember TBH.
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.03.27 12:32:00 - [1958] Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 27/03/2011 09:31:59 Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae can someone say to me what was said on fanfest about botting? in short bullets... i am finding on many places some hints... but its all unclear... What I got from it : 1) Background bot monitoring/detection software is in place - a load of people (1000 or so) who used RoidReaver got banned; 2) Current GM "decisions" on macroing s/w are now basically null and void. The security team will make the calls now, not random GMs. The ToS and EULA will be the final arbiter of decisions - where there's a conflict then ToS/EULA wins; 3) No mass banning, slow burn as evidence is accumulated; 4) Report Bot menu option as petitions weren't working effectively; 5) Three strikes and you're out - unspecified ban for first offence, 30 days for second, permaban on third offence. I suspect that none of the ratting bots have been hit yet. There's one system "out east" which I've been watching for 3 months now - I know who the bots are, I know the typical ratting figures per day and theres no change visible yet. Likewise there's another system in Stain that I've been watching for months - I'm hoping to see a change in ratting figures fairly soon, certainly before 20 April when I have to decide whether to resub or not. We'll see. THNX a lot... now I "JUST" want to see results... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.27 14:18:00 - [1959] Other notes from the presentation: The 3 strikes are a short ban, a 30 day ban, a perma-ban. If this system is not reducing the use of bots, it will be adjusted. Users of various bot types will wake up one day wake up to bans. Watch their forums for rage. Sreegs feels isk gained from botting should be removed from the game, just like RMT isk. But did not say if that would happen. Anti-bot software will be added to the client. It will concern itself with just the security of client, not with whatever else is running on you computer. My comment about CCP decompiling bot programs came from Sreegs DEV blog on phishing, not the presentation at fanfest.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.27 18:31:00 - [1960] Wonder how long the "slow burn" will take to have an effect, and wether the bots will replicate faster than the burn...

Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2011.03.27 19:55:00 - [1961] Let's see how many of the "devil's advocate" wannabe posters have disappeared.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.27 22:15:00 - [1962] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Let's see how many of the "devil's advocate" wannabe posters have disappeared. Yeah, its sad how many people can be appeased with honeyed words
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.03.27 23:52:00 - [1963] Edited by: Paul Mustaka Hekard on 28/03/2011 00:05:14 Reported a macro hauler and got an odd response from the "Polaris System" stating that it had been timed out due to lack of response from character. Anyone have any idea what this is; are they waiting for a response from the macro? I certainly did not receive any correspondence to respond to...just curious if anyone has seen this before or if it is part of a newer system dealing with macro petitions.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.03.28 00:03:00 - [1964] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Let's see how many of the "devil's advocate" wannabe posters have disappeared. Don't know if you include me in that label, but I haven't disappeared by any means. I'm just waiting for the cognitive dissonance to start with those that just automatically accept that anyone banned is therefore guilty, as if these claimed changes and these claimed bans actually reduce the problem. Taking the '1000' accounts banned figure at its face, unless that number was at least 60% nullsec macro ratters, then all CCP has done is hurt highsec miners who might amass 15 million per hour, as opposed to 8-10 million per hour, which will not affect the game in any meaningful way. Yes, yes, we all need to wait and see, or as an ex-wife used to say, 'hide and watch', but anyone who thinks that macro miners are the root of the problem are sorely mistaken.
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.28 01:04:00 - [1965] I am going to be very very interested to see how this all pans out against the economy etc. I am one of the maniac fools that mines too much, and I cant see other "Miners" picking up the slack of mineral stock pile depletion even if the price doubles or triples, it is just too Fing boring, and I do it while I am working at home. My main purpose for mining, is to supply for my own T2 Production, which does not require a whole lot of T1 minerals. I do not sell that much, and actually buy more than I mine myself. I do mine about 4-6 times more Ice than my own PoS requires, and sell the excess, only again, because it is easy, but also boring as F, the price of that doubling, would not in anyway make me rich.
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.03.28 03:16:00 - [1966] Originally by: Minarete I am going to be very very interested to see how this all pans out against the economy etc. I am one of the maniac fools that mines too much, and I cant see other "Miners" picking up the slack of mineral stock pile depletion even if the price doubles or triples, it is just too Fing boring, and I do it while I am working at home. My main purpose for mining, is to supply for my own T2 Production, which does not require a whole lot of T1 minerals. I do not sell that much, and actually buy more than I mine myself. I do mine about 4-6 times more Ice than my own PoS requires, and sell the excess, only again, because it is easy, but also boring as F, the price of that doubling, would not in anyway make me rich. EVE's economy is built on the assumption that botting would be permitted (as it has implicitly been in the past). I think because of that fact, EVE's economy is going to need some serious reconstruction. Regardless, botting and using botting as a crutch for the economy, when it is explicitly against the EULA, is absolutely unacceptable. I would rather see a lottery where players are randomly given resources than see the continued implicit approval/crutch of botting. At least that would even the playing field for those who adhere to the EULA. That's a horrible idea, I know, but it illustrates how much I would like to see bots disappear from EVE. To reduce shock, iteratively: 1) Burn away a significant portion of bots. 2) Damage control on EVE economy.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.28 11:55:00 - [1967] Originally by: Nadarius Chrome Let's see how many of the "devil's advocate" wannabe posters have disappeared. Just waiting for the release of the session to YouTube. No sense discussing it further until everyone who missed fanfest or the live stream has a chance to see it and make their own judgements... but thus far my position on bots and the problem has not changed. They're still a problem until words == results.
coolzero Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.28 12:04:00 - [1968] Edited by: coolzero on 28/03/2011 12:04:17 policy pict fanfest Jack of all trades, master of none...
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.28 12:05:00 - [1969] Originally by: Slate Shoa EVE's economy is built on the assumption that botting would be permitted (as it has implicitly been in the past). I think because of that fact, EVE's economy is going to need some serious reconstruction. Actually, it's not. I can double the prices in any area except perhaps Jita on any item, period. Anyone can who knows how predictable (and lazy) people are. I can also tank the prices on any item in any area, including Jita, period. Eve's economy is built on supply and demand - and manipulation of supply and demand and price. Losing bots would only allow the real players to make more ISK than they are capable of making now because of the excess supply of resources. Furthermore, ISK would itself become more valuable and, therefore, more conserved. As it is now, bots make ISK supply so easy those who use them spend like there's no tomorrow and do drive an economy that is less valuable today than it was years ago. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the eve economy would only prosper with the reduction and eventual elimination of as many bots as possible. Everything, including ISK, simply becomes more valuable than it is now. Supply and demand return to normal levels and the real players absorb the changes and move on. We do it every time they make a change to Eve and add or remove items from the markets or give us new resources to exploit (Tech II, Tech III, PI - to name only the most recent changes that 'affected' the eve economy).
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.28 12:32:00 - [1970] Amusing quote from the bot site Kappas quoted from above... Quote: I hate to say it, but we could be in trouble here... just lost 5 of my 14 accounts today alone. and ITS A SUNDAY! good thing they only gave me a 3 day ban. Edit: well, now I know they are watching me, just lost another a few seconds after i did the original post. I think pretending to pvp in them will get the rest of the bots safe... bot with -1.9 sec status... lol..

Hairy Beta	Posted - 2011.03.28 12:34:00 - [1971] Edited by: Hairy Beta on 28/03/2011 12:34:06 lol, roidreaver seems to be okay. http://www.publicdemands.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?6928-So..-how-many-of-you-have-been-banned-in-this-mini-wave
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.28 12:38:00 - [1972] So you can pretty much bot all you want since you only get a few days ban max the first time anyway? Followed by a 30 days ban of what i assuem is only the account you bot on?
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.28 13:17:00 - [1973] Originally by: Furb Killer So you can pretty much bot all you want since you only get a few days ban max the first time anyway? Followed by a 30 days ban of what i assuem is only the account you bot on? Yes, you're basically safe to bot as much as you want until you get the 2nd ban. As to whether or not all your accounts get banned, that's another thing altogether. They don't want to do too much banning, they just want to appease the anti-botters for a few months. In the bot forums, one guy posted a highly plausible scenario about that, it made interesting reading.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.28 13:53:00 - [1974] Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 13:53:37 Originally by: Hairy Beta Edited by: Hairy Beta on 28/03/2011 12:55:56 roidreaver seems to be okay. http://www.publicdemands.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?6928-So..-how-many-of-you-have-been-banned-in-this-mini-wave Lovely its a .co.uk and its being used for commercial purposes so we can get the whois populated correctly - and if its false registrant info we can get the domain removed from the registrant too. Nice and easy too, not like .com domains where the vast majority have incorrect registrant info and nobody will do anything about it. You'd imagine CCP might have a clue about things like this....... Edit - Nominet case number assigned and in progress.
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.03.28 14:06:00 - [1975] The slap on the wrist approach they are still taking with this is ridiculous. It's done jack diddly squat to deter anyone from botting as I see all of the local bot corps are going just as strong as ever. Hell, they've even added a few.
Puchat Aivoras	Posted - 2011.03.28 14:46:00 - [1976] Edited by: Puchat Aivoras on 28/03/2011 14:50:03 Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 13:53:37 Originally by: Hairy Beta Edited by: Hairy Beta on 28/03/2011 12:55:56 roidreaver seems to be okay. http://www.publicdemands.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?6928-So..-how-many-of-you-have-been-banned-in-this-mini-wave Lovely its a .co.uk and its being used for commercial purposes so we can get the whois populated correctly - and if its false registrant info we can get the domain removed from the registrant too. Nice and easy too, not like .com domains where the vast majority have incorrect registrant info and nobody will do anything about it. You'd imagine CCP might have a clue about things like this....... Edit - Nominet case number assigned and in progress. And that accomplishes what? you know his/her name and company? If this person is THAT deep into botting not only is their real name not on a single one of their accounts, but they are probably running them all through a VPN service to give them multiple IPS so ccp wont be able to do jack with the info. What we need to do is make a statement that they are not welcome in our game. this one here is one of the bot authors http://www.publicdemands.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?6923-PLEX-for-Japan It is the same one that bragged he had 12 bots going 23/7 and didn't get touched with the ban wave. he claims his program does 120mil a day per bot on their forums. By his post that means he donated 43,200,000,000 in isk or about 115 plex at 375 mil each. Now something like that has to be easy to track that isk should be removed from the donation pool, back tracked to him and all his accounts banned! This would say that we are in no way OK with bot isk, no matter what it is used for. It would also remove most if not all of the programers accounts forcing him to start from scratch or at best delay his code release till the ban was over and force him to acquire all new accounts.
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.03.28 14:49:00 - [1977] Originally by: Vincent Athena Edited by: Vincent Athena on 27/03/2011 14:30:04 Other notes from the presentation: The 3 strikes are a short ban, a 30 day ban, a perma-ban. If this system is not reducing the use of bots, it will be adjusted. Users of various bot types will one day wake up to bans. Watch their forums for rage. Sreegs feels isk gained from botting should be removed from the game, just like RMT isk. But did not say if that would happen. Anti-bot software will be added to the client. It will concern itself with just the security of the client, not with whatever else is running on you computer. My comment about CCP decompiling bot programs came from Sreegs DEV blog on phishing, not the presentation at fanfest. Edit: typos ok... it's progress... BUT... 2 small bans before real ban??? so... we all can bot untill we get 2 bans... and then we sell that chars... buy new one, put it on new acc and again... :/ thats not a progress... :( and about the rest... i see realy small success... :( i hope thats just begining... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.28 14:59:00 - [1978] Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 15:01:43 It accomplishes something in that you find out who the owner of the .uk domain is - or who he purports to be. .uk domain names have fairly strict rules - part of which is that if you run a commercial site you must provide accurate contact info, this overlaps into Distance Selling Regulations (UK consumer law) as well. In the case of that particular domain, well its got a nameserver in RIPE IP space ostensibly allocated to a US LLC company that doesn't seem to exist. Same nameserver for a mining bot which has two .com addresses. Not even going to bother looking at the whois for the .coms as it'll be garbage and it'll be a USA registrar. So in this instance (if I'm right) we can get the .co.uk pulled either because the registrant info is wrong or the registrant does not do any business within the UK (which he doesn't). Now at that point we can get RIPE involved via Nominet and get the IP allocation pulled. All of that can be done EASILY. Its not the usual whack-a-mole crap you have with .com and US registrars who don't even attempt to validate registrant info. Anyway if it annoys the domain holder then I like it. Its not rocket science. Edit - oh and a .co.uk domain attracts significantly less in the way of merchant fee "premiums" than a .com so you push costs up. If not you **** the bot vendor off and that's good....
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.28 15:27:00 - [1979] Originally by: Othran In the case of that particular domain, well its got a nameserver in RIPE IP space ostensibly allocated to a US LLC company that doesn't seem to exist. Same nameserver for a mining bot which has two .com addresses. ns1.publicdemands.co.uk (178.79.137.18) is the same ip running the forum, the server is probably hosted by linode.com, who the ip also is assigned to. The servers running the forum, are located somewhere in england most likely close to london where linode.com also have facilities and hardware. Can't really see what the problem should be, looks perfectly legit to me.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.28 15:42:00 - [1980] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Othran In the case of that particular domain, well its got a nameserver in RIPE IP space ostensibly allocated to a US LLC company that doesn't seem to exist. Same nameserver for a mining bot which has two .com addresses. ns1.publicdemands.co.uk (178.79.137.18) is the same ip running the forum, the server is probably hosted by linode.com, who the ip also is assigned to. The servers running the forum, are located somewhere in england most likely close to london where linode.com also have facilities and hardware. Can't really see what the problem should be, looks perfectly legit to me. It would to you. Now **** off.

Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.03.28 15:56:00 - [1981] I haven't had time to watch the whole thing, but I think this is the presentation: EVE Fanfest 2011 Security Presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs Keep this link on each new page in this forum if this is the promised youtube video...
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.28 16:01:00 - [1982] Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 16:04:10 Originally by: Slate Shoa I haven't had time to watch the whole thing, but I think this is the presentation: EVE Fanfest 2011 Security Presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs Keep this link on each new page in this forum if this is the promised youtube video... That's the one although it seems to have had a bit cut off at the start. Edit - from 13:40 or so to 22:00 is the whole crux of things. That's the man who has the know-how. Sreegs knows what he's doing but Claudio is the key.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.28 16:11:00 - [1983] Edited by: dexington on 28/03/2011 16:15:06 Feel free to point out where i'm wrong, seems like you once again are making wild claims you can't support... Originally by: Othran .uk domain names have fairly strict rules - part of which is that if you run a commercial site you must provide accurate contact info, this overlaps into Distance Selling Regulations (UK consumer law) as well. Registrant type: UK Individual Registrant's address: The registrant is a non-trading individual who has opted to have their address omitted from the WHOIS service. The reason the information is not public is probably because the registrant is using valid information. Originally by: Othran In the case of that particular domain, well its got a nameserver in RIPE IP space ostensibly allocated to a US LLC company that doesn't seem to exist. Same nameserver for a mining bot which has two .com addresses. Not even going to bother looking at the whois for the .coms as it'll be garbage and it'll be a USA registrar. Wrong wrong wrong, they are using a very real american company with servers and office in london. You would know this is you had bothered to lookup the domain/ip and cross reference that with the ripe database. Originally by: Othran So in this instance (if I'm right) we can get the .co.uk pulled either because the registrant info is wrong or the registrant does not do any business within the UK (which he doesn't). Now at that point we can get RIPE involved via Nominet and get the IP allocation pulled. You may or may not be right about the personal information being false, most likely you are wrong. Even if it's false, the Nominet policy does not say that the domain is removed, only that i can be. And you are dead wrong about ripe is going to do anything about the ip.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.28 16:23:00 - [1984] Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 16:25:13 Uhuh. You know who has the IP space? Like hell you do. You looked at the obvious and failed. The reason is YOU HAVE NO CLUE. Again, **** off and stop trolling. Like I said a Nominet case is open and they have agreed with what I've said. Registrar and registrant are informed that whois IS being populated. As usual its 123-reg so Nominet are well used to this.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.28 16:32:00 - [1985] Originally by: Othran Uhuh. You know who has the IP space? Like hell you do. You looked at the obvious and failed. The reason is YOU HAVE NO CLUE. Again, **** off and stop trolling. nslookup publicdemands.co.uk Address: 178.79.137.18 nslookup 178.79.137.18 Name: li193-18.members.linode.com whois 178.79.137.18 inetnum: 178.79.136.0 - 178.79.143.255 netname: LINODE-UK descr: Linode, LLC country: GB The uk office of linode.com is assigned the ip range hosting the server...
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.03.28 16:41:00 - [1986] U 2 need to chill the **** out what is this accomplishing? even if you both track down the street address and owner names of those companys, what can you do about it? this is CCP's war, let them fight it.
auropobia	Posted - 2011.03.28 16:46:00 - [1987] I might have missed it some where above but all I have to say is: Thank you CCP for finally doing something about this Mineral prices are already on the increase, not much but its a start. Thanks Keep it up
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.28 16:49:00 - [1988] So far we have .. Violation 1 - Unknown ban Violation 2 - 30 day ban Violation 3 - perma-ban. And this from the bot forum today... Quote: they're bot detection cannot be that advanced, case in point, they ban 3 of my miners, they do not ban 4 of my miners, one of which runs on the same computer and has the same ip as the 3 that were banned. They are all in the same corp, a corp of only miners. sounds soooooo advanced [14 day ban btw] Looks like violation 1 has a figure attached to it now.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.28 16:49:00 - [1989] Look dex/Whitehound/Grimpak/whatever apologist you are for cheating - you really have no idea. Feel free to prove you DO to the rest of us. Some of us however have a clue. The LLC you are failing to get to is apparently registered in Florida (yay for Florida "**** the world, we'll spam you" laws) only that it isn't. Of course it isn't as have you ANY clue how much online merchants dislike Florida companies? .uk domains are cheap in terms of online charges (Visa/MC/etc). I did what Sreegs thinks he's doing now for years. I did it for Cisco on a stunningly expensive contract (mainly I did inline assy on 7400 series routers for a good while). I then got sucked into various stuff on the basis that I could do it on the cheapest cpu basis. I then did it on a private basis for another few years - from pen testing to simply walking in and blagging my way in (social engineering). I can't do it now as I'm of the age that I look like a senior manager (ie old) so the social side of testing is gone. Feel free to believe its BS though. To the domain holder of publicdemands.co.uk - the domain will be populated. Enjoy the start of the game, we'll play some more feel free to jump now as I have all the relevant info on your stuff now. A new nameserver would be amusing?
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.28 16:56:00 - [1990] Originally by: NinjaSpud U 2 need to chill the **** out what is this accomplishing? even if you both track down the street address and owner names of those companys, what can you do about it? this is CCP's war, let them fight it. You are spot on. Sorry. Its just hard to let it go when a .uk domain is involved. Simple reason is that its nice and easy to get the .uk domain removed from scammers/etc. Its not like that in most other countries and people NEED to know that if its a .uk domain and trades (ie takes money/goods) then all of the consumer law applies - including full disclosure of name/address/telephone for the registrant. Also if you are a trader on one .uk domain then unless its a .me.uk (personal domain) then ALL of your .uk domains are commercial. Low hanging fruit.....

Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.28 17:01:00 - [1991] Originally by: auropobia I might have missed it some where above but all I have to say is: Thank you CCP for finally doing something about this Mineral prices are already on the increase, not much but its a start. Thanks Keep it up So, i just checked 3 of my traders I use for Minerals, and I see that prices are down not up from 2-10 points pretty much across the board from a week ago, that is in 3 regions, one includes Jita. Ya, some spotty increases, but not real strong to reflect anything. Guess you have some kind of insider infoz?
Princess Scorned	Posted - 2011.03.28 17:24:00 - [1992] Originally by: Othran Originally by: NinjaSpud U 2 need to chill the **** out what is this accomplishing? even if you both track down the street address and owner names of those companys, what can you do about it? this is CCP's war, let them fight it. You are spot on. Sorry. Its just hard to let it go when a .uk domain is involved. Simple reason is that its nice and easy to get the .uk domain removed from scammers/etc. Its not like that in most other countries and people NEED to know that if its a .uk domain and trades (ie takes money/goods) then all of the consumer law applies - including full disclosure of name/address/telephone for the registrant. Also if you are a trader on one .uk domain then unless its a .me.uk (personal domain) then ALL of your .uk domains are commercial. Low hanging fruit..... That's all well and nice, but what would be the legal basis for getting all that information? They are not doing anything illegal. And even if you were to argue that they are, the affected company is not in the UK, but another country. And if you were to get the UK to try to do anything against this site what would be the argument? "Excuse me, your honor, but these horrible people are affecting my Internet Spaceships Game by not playing fair" - "your what?" - "you see, your honor, there's this game called eve online. It's about internet spaceships..." - "Spaceships? what?" - "Yes, it's a sci-fi game you see.." - "SAI-FAI?" - "Science fiction" - "Ah, something like...Arthur C. Clarke?" - "Who? what? no no no, it's a game" - "Arthur C. Clarke makes games?" - "No, no, it's an internet game... an MMORPG" - thinking "what in bloddy hell..." says: "look i don't know what on earth you're talking about but I don't see a crime commited here within the UK" - "But your honor..." - "And it's spelled honour you bloody yank, now get out of here" TL;DR: Nobody will go after the site. Waste of time. You need to go after the botters since they're the ones that are reachable by the TOS and EULA. Period.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.28 17:30:00 - [1993] Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 17:31:53 Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 17:31:30 Originally by: Princess Scorned That's all well and nice, but what would be the legal basis for getting all that information? They are not doing anything illegal. They are. The legal basis is that the domain holder of publicdemands.co.uk has signed up to the terms of owning a .co.uk and then got caught pretending to be a non-trading individual. Oh and there's probably some tax evasion which is a criminal offence. Enjoy Mr/Ms Russian player.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.28 17:36:00 - [1994] Originally by: Othran Oh and there's probably some tax evasion which is a criminal offence. lol, taxes from the massive amount of money he is making running the forum?
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.28 17:37:00 - [1995] Oh and here we go : Thank you for contacting us regarding the publicdemands.co.uk domain name. You have informed us that you believe that the domain name is incorrectly opted out of the WHOIS. We have investigated publicdemands.co.uk and have issued notice to the registrant and registrar that the address details for the domain name will be opted in to the WHOIS unless changes are made so that the domain name meets the opt-out criteria. So in 5 days everyone gets the details of the person who last registered publicdemands.co.uk. Of course he's propelled by matter out of his rectum now but I'm confident I'll trace him - hopefully he's not above the Chinese restaurant in Torquay
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.28 17:39:00 - [1996] Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 17:40:43 Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 17:40:14 Originally by: dexington Originally by: Othran Oh and there's probably some tax evasion which is a criminal offence. lol, taxes from the massive amount of money he is making running the forum? Everyone should note that this guy and Whitehound/Grimpak have tried the FUD approach all the way through this thread. I'd treat them all with the contempt they deserve and frankly I can't understand why it took Noir so long to deal with Whitehound/Grimpak
Princess Scorned	Posted - 2011.03.28 17:45:00 - [1997] Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 17:31:53 Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 17:31:30 Originally by: Princess Scorned That's all well and nice, but what would be the legal basis for getting all that information? They are not doing anything illegal. They are. The legal basis is that the domain holder of publicdemands.co.uk has signed up to the terms of owning a .co.uk and then got caught pretending to be a non-trading individual. Oh and there's probably some tax evasion which is a criminal offence. Enjoy Mr/Ms Russian player. Oh I see and does a citizen need to press charges or is it prosecuted by "default" (don't know the right word in english) So....you think I'm russian, based on what you stupid nimwit? No i'm not russian, not from the US, english is not my native language. Hmm..where could I be from? Since you've already tagged me with one of your limited biased stereotypes you're probably thinking I'm chinese. Which I'm not. That only makes you even more of an idiot, besides a zealot. Get out of your mum's basement, see the world. Internet Spaceships Game isn't all that important, you know. It's a game.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.28 17:49:00 - [1998] Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 17:49:37 Originally by: Princess Scorned Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 17:31:53 Edited by: Othran on 28/03/2011 17:31:30 Originally by: Princess Scorned That's all well and nice, but what would be the legal basis for getting all that information? They are not doing anything illegal. They are. The legal basis is that the domain holder of publicdemands.co.uk has signed up to the terms of owning a .co.uk and then got caught pretending to be a non-trading individual. Oh and there's probably some tax evasion which is a criminal offence. Enjoy Mr/Ms Russian player. Oh I see and does a citizen need to press charges or is it prosecuted by "default" (don't know the right word in english) So....you think I'm russian, based on what you stupid nimwit? No i'm not russian, not from the US, english is not my native language. Hmm..where could I be from? Since you've already tagged me with one of your limited biased stereotypes you're probably thinking I'm chinese. Which I'm not. That only makes you even more of an idiot, besides a zealot. Get out of your mum's basement, see the world. Internet Spaceships Game isn't all that important, you know. It's a game. Oh dear someone is butthurt. Got the nominet email did we? Rage on.
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.03.28 17:57:00 - [1999] Quote: EVE Fanfest 2011 Security Presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs From the presentation, it looks like CCP is streamlining the bot reporting process and coming up with ways to avoid having to make judgment calls for each bot report. This streamlining is good. I would still like to hear what is being done to continually prove that bot reports are being acted upon. In the presentation CCP Sreegs was commenting about how the old bot reporting system has a bad (no) feedback system. It seemed that Sreegs was going to comment on how the new bot reporting system feedback would be changed, but then it looked like Sreegs forgot to talk about it (assuming there was something planned). Are the players who report bots going to be notified if their reports successfully catch a botter? Is there going to be a Wall-of-Shame (or equivalent)? If some privacy agreement is preventing CCP from disclosing the result of a bot report, then that privacy agreement needs to be changed. CCP needs to be visible in its handling of botters and continually prove to the playerbase that botters are being delt with; lack of visibility will lead to additional (and justified) anti-botter rage. I will wait for the Devblog to be published to see if my concerns are addressed there.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.28 18:05:00 - [2000] Originally by: Slate Shoa Quote: EVE Fanfest 2011 Security Presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs From the presentation, it looks like CCP is streamlining the bot reporting process and coming up with ways to avoid having to make judgment calls for each bot report. This streamlining is good. I would still like to hear what is being done to continually prove that bot reports are being acted upon. In the presentation CCP Sreegs was commenting about how the old bot reporting system has a bad (no) feedback system. It seemed that Sreegs was going to comment on how the new bot reporting system feedback would be changed, but then it looked like Sreegs forgot to talk about it (assuming there was something planned). Are the players who report bots going to be notified if their reports successfully catch a botter? Is there going to be a Wall-of-Shame (or equivalent)? If some privacy agreement is preventing CCP from disclosing the result of a bot report, then that privacy agreement needs to be changed. CCP needs to be visible in its handling of botters and continually prove to the playerbase that botters are being delt with; lack of visibility will lead to additional (and justified) anti-botter rage. I will wait for the Devblog to be published to see if my concerns are addressed there. Monitor it yourself. Pick a system on dotlan and watch. As of 19:00 28/3/11 there appears to be no problem with most bots on most of mine. I'm giving CCP another 3 weeks. That is it. If I don't see significant changes to bot numbers in that time then that's enough. After that everything is bullcrap from employees who are told what to say. Its not rocket science. It is willpower and CCP are way way WAY overdrawn on any trust

Queen Gwenny	Posted - 2011.03.28 18:18:00 - [2001] Thanks for the laugh Othran, you've made our day!
Princess Scorned	Posted - 2011.03.28 19:02:00 - [2002] Originally by: Othran Got the nominet email did we? Rage on. The what mail? And tbh not butthurt just amazed how emo people get over botting. Sure it's wrong but it's not like it's actually ruining the game for people, after all, CCP continues to get moar subscribers. And the fact that you called me russian tells me: 1) You think I'm defending botters. I'm not, I just don't give a damn. 2) Since 1) you automatically thought I was russian Which makes me give you a bit of reality pill: * Not all botters are russian. not all russians are botters. * Just because I don't make a such a fuss about botters or a site that talks about botting doesn't make me a botter * You're still acting like a butthurt pubbie
Greagore	Posted - 2011.03.28 19:20:00 - [2003] I have to agree with scorned here. It is only a game and the only one who seems butt-hurt (as you so eloquently put it) is you Othran. But I actually enjoy it when person's like your self get up on their high horse and act all high and mighty and think that your $15 a month is worth more then the $15,000/mth ccp banned. Get over yourself and just enjoy the game. If people want to bot who cares that's their prerogative, if ccp catches them and bans them, again their prerogative. Nothing to do with you other than a chance for you to troll and get some attention. So get a life and start making your report bot petitions. Maybe you can make a macro that will auto fill them in for you. Wouldn't that be sweet irony? Either way I doubt life in eve will change much either way for the vast majority of players.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.03.28 19:24:00 - [2004] I think CCP wants to be rather silent on what accounts get banned, and how they were found (player report, server side monitoring, etc) as it can give info to botters as to what "works", hides their bots, and what does not work. That said: CCP Sreegs, can there be a monthly or quarterly security report that gives us the overall picture of how things are going?
Lubomir Penev Aliastra	Posted - 2011.03.28 19:27:00 - [2005] Originally by: coolzero Edited by: coolzero on 28/03/2011 12:04:17 policy pict fanfest CCP to players : bot away till you get caught, then be careful. Glad I'm out There are no macrominers in EVE
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.28 19:30:00 - [2006] Originally by: Princess Scorned the ones that are reachable by the TOS and EULA. Period. yeah, CCP has such a spotless record of punishing ppl for breaches of this. T20 anyone? Where the only person really punished was he who cannot be named on this forum.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.03.28 19:46:00 - [2007] Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 28/03/2011 19:47:52 Originally by: Othran Originally by: Slate Shoa Quote: EVE Fanfest 2011 Security Presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs From the presentation, it looks like CCP is streamlining the bot reporting process and coming up with ways to avoid having to make judgment calls for each bot report. This streamlining is good. I would still like to hear what is being done to continually prove that bot reports are being acted upon. In the presentation CCP Sreegs was commenting about how the old bot reporting system has a bad (no) feedback system. It seemed that Sreegs was going to comment on how the new bot reporting system feedback would be changed, but then it looked like Sreegs forgot to talk about it (assuming there was something planned). Are the players who report bots going to be notified if their reports successfully catch a botter? Is there going to be a Wall-of-Shame (or equivalent)? If some privacy agreement is preventing CCP from disclosing the result of a bot report, then that privacy agreement needs to be changed. CCP needs to be visible in its handling of botters and continually prove to the playerbase that botters are being delt with; lack of visibility will lead to additional (and justified) anti-botter rage. I will wait for the Devblog to be published to see if my concerns are addressed there. Monitor it yourself. Pick a system on dotlan and watch. As of 19:00 28/3/11 there appears to be no problem with most bots on most of mine. I'm giving CCP another 3 weeks. That is it. If I don't see significant changes to bot numbers in that time then that's enough. After that everything is bullcrap from employees who are told what to say. Its not rocket science. It is willpower and CCP are way way WAY overdrawn on any trust Dude, slow burn... its gonna be slow but itll be working lol Originally by: Princess Scorned And tbh not butthurt just amazed how emo people get over botting. Sure it's wrong but it's not like it's actually ruining the game for people RIIIGHT Cause when it gets to hundreds of titans per battle and thousands of supercaps, that wont impact anyone.
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.03.28 20:00:00 - [2008] Originally by: Othran Originally by: NinjaSpud U 2 need to chill the **** out what is this accomplishing? even if you both track down the street address and owner names of those companys, what can you do about it? this is CCP's war, let them fight it. You are spot on. Sorry. Its just hard to let it go when a .uk domain is involved. Simple reason is that its nice and easy to get the .uk domain removed from scammers/etc. Its not like that in most other countries and people NEED to know that if its a .uk domain and trades (ie takes money/goods) then all of the consumer law applies - including full disclosure of name/address/telephone for the registrant. Also if you are a trader on one .uk domain then unless its a .me.uk (personal domain) then ALL of your .uk domains are commercial. Low hanging fruit..... NP man, it's all good. Sorry I had to use big boy curse words there Let's not lose track of scope here. Everyone stop for a second and think about what's happening. You have made a difference. Threads like this have gotten CCP's attention, and they are doing something about it. 1st steps have been taken, the ball is officialy rolling. YOU the game players have spoken to CCP, and they have listened and responded with corrective action. Name any other game in the world that can boast that? Despite all the angery feelings and flames, CCP is there to help, and you have made a difference. Take pride in that.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.28 20:01:00 - [2009] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Cause when it gets to hundreds of titans per battle and thousands of supercaps, that wont impact anyone. Some grows in the use of titans and super caps has to be expected, it will happen even without bots, the use of bots just makes it happen faster.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.28 20:05:00 - [2010] Well supers are fundamentally broken, but still then, some growth is indeed expected, but less than a year ago it was still a big hit when Atlas lost a titan in H-W, now powerblocks are losing 10+ titans in a single fight (and still supers are build way faster than destroyed), and sure i guess it has a little impact on morale, but not more than that. Do the math how it is next year if CCP doesnt do anything about it.

Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.28 20:12:00 - [2011] Originally by: Greagore I have to agree with scorned here. It is only a game and the only one who seems butt-hurt (as you so eloquently put it) is you Othran. But I actually enjoy it when person's like your self get up on their high horse and act all high and mighty and think that your $15 a month is worth more then the $15,000/mth ccp banned. Get over yourself and just enjoy the game. If people want to bot who cares that's their prerogative, if ccp catches them and bans them, again their prerogative. Nothing to do with you other than a chance for you to troll and get some attention. So get a life and start making your report bot petitions. Maybe you can make a macro that will auto fill them in for you. Wouldn't that be sweet irony? Either way I doubt life in eve will change much either way for the vast majority of players.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.03.28 20:19:00 - [2012] Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 28/03/2011 20:20:51 Originally by: Furb Killer Well supers are fundamentally broken, but still then, some growth is indeed expected, but less than a year ago it was still a big hit when Atlas lost a titan in H-W, now powerblocks are losing 10+ titans in a single fight (and still supers are build way faster than destroyed), and sure i guess it has a little impact on morale, but not more than that. Do the math how it is next year if CCP doesnt do anything about it. 1 to 10 to 100? lol It used to be devistating to a corp to lose a a titan, a major corp, and it was unheard of for them to even HAVE 15 lol
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2011.03.28 20:22:00 - [2013] Seems you ppl fail.The fanfest shows CCP's policy on bots clearly. Time to get some hulks
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.28 20:23:00 - [2014] Originally by: Furb Killer Well supers are fundamentally broken, but still then, some growth is indeed expected, but less than a year ago it was still a big hit when Atlas lost a titan in H-W, now powerblocks are losing 10+ titans in a single fight (and still supers are build way faster than destroyed), and sure i guess it has a little impact on morale, but not more than that. Do the math how it is next year if CCP doesnt do anything about it. This really has nothing to do with bots, as the eve universe population grows this is bound to happen. The bots may have some impact on ship construction, but the ideology of blob warfare will exist without bots.
Greagore	Posted - 2011.03.28 20:34:00 - [2015] i just don't understand why people are so against botters who probably make a few billion a month, but they had no real issues with the moon mining that was making some corps trillions for no effort at all. is it the fact that they are logged in making the isk? That is the only difference I can see.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.28 20:39:00 - [2016] Originally by: Greagore i just don't understand why people are so against botters who probably make a few billion a month, but they had no real issues with the moon mining that was making some corps trillions for no effort at all. is it the fact that they are logged in making the isk? That is the only difference I can see. If CCP would allow bots, everyone would do it. The economy would be gone, and all ships might as well be free.
Greagore	Posted - 2011.03.28 20:42:00 - [2017] For everyone that had the free moon mining everything is free. Even the game, pretty much for as many accounts as they like and for as long as they like.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.03.28 20:49:00 - [2018] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Furb Killer Well supers are fundamentally broken, but still then, some growth is indeed expected, but less than a year ago it was still a big hit when Atlas lost a titan in H-W, now powerblocks are losing 10+ titans in a single fight (and still supers are build way faster than destroyed), and sure i guess it has a little impact on morale, but not more than that. Do the math how it is next year if CCP doesnt do anything about it. This really has nothing to do with bots, as the eve universe population grows this is bound to happen. The bots may have some impact on ship construction, but the ideology of blob warfare will exist without bots. This would be true if the population increased about TEN TIMES in that time. It didnt btw
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.28 21:12:00 - [2019] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod This would be true if the population increased about TEN TIMES in that time. That's not really true, you said yourself more titans are being build then destroyed. It does not take more players, it's just takes time. Bots, more players, etc is just a positive catalyst, making it happen faster.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.03.28 21:27:00 - [2020] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod This would be true if the population increased about TEN TIMES in that time. That's not really true, you said yourself more titans are being build then destroyed. It does not take more players, it's just takes time. Bots, more players, etc is just a positive catalyst, making it happen faster. So it happening faster is a good thing in your eyes? Is your main in a huge corp with 15 titans by chance?

dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.28 21:41:00 - [2021] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Originally by: dexington Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod This would be true if the population increased about TEN TIMES in that time. That's not really true, you said yourself more titans are being build then destroyed. It does not take more players, it's just takes time. Bots, more players, etc is just a positive catalyst, making it happen faster. So it happening faster is a good thing in your eyes? Is your main in a huge corp with 15 titans by chance? I really don't care that much about titans, positive catalysts increase the speed of the process and negative catalysts, or inhibitors, decrease the speed of the process.
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.03.28 22:00:00 - [2022] i conclude. eve is dying now the gameplay is numb. The player base is numerous, yet suffers from irritation. if CCP continues with loose botting policy the population will abandon the game over the course of 1-2 years. Eve is not dead. Eve is dying. Help it recover and become happy again. Banhammer the chinese isk farmers and their farming tools. Work on the tools, not the farmers.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.28 22:05:00 - [2023] Originally by: Opertone i conclude. eve is dying now the gameplay is numb. The player base is numerous, yet suffers from irritation. if CCP continues with loose botting policy the population will abandon the game over the course of 1-2 years. Eve is not dead. Eve is dying. Help it recover and become happy again. Banhammer the chinese isk farmers and their farming tools. Work on the tools, not the farmers. Yeah, Im actually concerned to continue mining, afraid Im gonna get banned because I do things repetitively. How, exactly, do you NOT mine with repetitive behaviors???
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.28 22:08:00 - [2024] Originally by: Vincent Athena Can a pilot be sold from a temp banned account? I sure hope the answer is "No", because otherwise botters can just move pilots from banned accounts to new ones and carry on. But if they got to wait 30 days, then depending on how good your detection is, they may get 3 or 5 days in, then have to wait for 30 days before they can carry on. That actually might be sufficient deterrence..... You can't use the CCP system on the forums to trade characters that have been banned: The 'For Sale/Auction' post must be made by the character being offered. This is being added to prevent scams for characters that have been misrepresented, banned, non-existent, etc.
Brannoncyll	Posted - 2011.03.28 22:20:00 - [2025] Originally by: Slate Shoa Are the players who report bots going to be notified if their reports successfully catch a botter? Is there going to be a Wall-of-Shame (or equivalent)? If some privacy agreement is preventing CCP from disclosing the result of a bot report, then that privacy agreement needs to be changed. CCP needs to be visible in its handling of botters and continually prove to the playerbase that botters are being delt with; lack of visibility will lead to additional (and justified) anti-botter rage. I will wait for the Devblog to be published to see if my concerns are addressed there. If the wall of shame is not possible, instead it would be great to see some sort of counter on the EVE website with frequently updated statistics on how many botters have been banned and perhaps some watered down graphs from the behavioural analysis program showing a consistent trend in the number of hits. @CCP Sreegs - I enjoyed watching the video of your presentation and I am glad to see that the botting issue is now being taken very seriously. I approve of your hard-line attitude regarding the enforcement of the EULA/ToS. I look forward to feedback similar to that mentioned above or in the quoted post as to the results of your effort.
Jack Gilligan Cerberus Heavy Logistics	Posted - 2011.03.28 22:53:00 - [2026] So what was the big announcement at fanfest? I didn't see any in the news. Have we been lied to again?
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.03.28 22:55:00 - [2027] Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest? I didn't see any in the news. Have we been lied to again? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.29 00:02:00 - [2028] Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 29/03/2011 00:03:08 Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest? I didn't see any in the news. Have we been lied to again? Theyre Working On It oh yeah, and "Slow Burn"
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.29 01:16:00 - [2029] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest? I didn't see any in the news. Have we been lied to again? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs And now that the early video has broke out, I'll make my official response. First, and foremost, this is a win for players and a lose for botters. It is a win for players for the following reasons: 1. CCP has assembled and assigned a security team whose sole purpose is to enforce the EULA and TOS. 2. We have been asking for CCP to do something significant about bots for years and they finally have us item #1. 3. We have been asking for CCP to give us an easy to use reporting tool for years, and they are. 4. We have been asking for CCP to just listen to us on this, and they are. 5. We will finally begin to have a more playable, level field where there will actually be resources in some cases where there aren't now due to bots. 6. The value of our ISK will increase, as will the value of ore and minerals (already a touch on the rise due to panic and fear and smart people capitalizing on that panic and fear) and everything else in the game, returning us to a pre-everybody bots state. 7. We have a definitive (arguably too shallow for some of us) three strikes policy for those breaking the EULA (this, btw folks, is a deterrent - it will deter more people from botting, but not all and is not designed to deter all - no policy (even 1 strike you're out) will deter everyone) It is a lose for botters in too many ways to list. As a developer of 20 years myself, I can say with great certainty that these guys know what they're doing. And they did give the botters fair warning. If what they say they are implementing is true, and results can be as easily measured by the players as they can by CCP, then we'll see things vastly improved by this time next year. I'm not going to lie to you folks - and neither did CCP - it will be a slow burn... but you know what the great thing about slow burns are? They're very, very efficient. Having said that, now I will say this... Sreegs - you did a great job with your preso bud. Not too much info (as I anticipated) but just enough that I'm quite pleased with your solutions. Looking forward to getting my token when that's out (damn... I knew I should have planned that OOP camp for April!) and looking forward to watching the bots drop off. Kudos to CCP and to you for finally bringing together the talent required to make that hammer hit harder, more precisely and, most importantly, more often than not. Oh, and thanks for the nod... Looking forward to having that report bot tool - and I can guess a number of local botters will be unhappy when I have that tool :) Again - great job and keep up the great work. I finally feel like something is actually being done about this issue and look forward with anticipation to the improved eden we'll all soon enjoy.
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.03.29 03:14:00 - [2030] Watched the video. I now believe that you have a sound approach to approaching this issue. Although success does matter, I no longer question the "slow burn" approach. Kudos Sreegs and Claudio. I very much look forward to seeing the death of bots in this game and the re-establishment of a free and fair economy. Might be rough going for a while, but it will reach equilibrium. Thank you for hearing us and having the fortitude (and sense of self-preservation) to do something about it. EvE is a bit unique with respect to botting; because it is a sandbox, the damage is large. Thanks for taking it seriously. Will gladly participate in feeding you data to support your efforts.

Nikita Keriget	Posted - 2011.03.29 06:45:00 - [2031] Sreegs, I noticed in the presentation you mentioned the focus on programs that mess with the Eve client - does that include bots that use OCR to read the screen and emit mouse/keyboard input, or only ones that hack the process directly? (Please be both!) Oh, and keep up the good work. I've been wanting two-factor authentication and a crackdown on bots for a while now. You're like my fairy godmother.
Jessica Autumn	Posted - 2011.03.29 06:56:00 - [2032] CCP your gonna need to get on this Bots in Dronelands are Farming Drones at the rate of 23,000 a day, 23 fricken thousand ships A DAY!!!.....And all that Isk is going to the Russian Wallets to replace 13 titans in 2 days or 500 abaddon fleet. Lets get on this quick!....
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2011.03.29 07:36:00 - [2033] Originally by: Nikita Keriget Sreegs, I noticed in the presentation you mentioned the focus on programs that mess with the Eve client - does that include bots that use OCR to read the screen and emit mouse/keyboard input, or only ones that hack the process directly? (Please be both!) Oh, and keep up the good work. I've been wanting two-factor authentication and a crackdown on bots for a while now. You're like my fairy godmother. Definitely both since the recent bans focused on an OCR bot.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.29 08:00:00 - [2034] Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat Originally by: Nikita Keriget Sreegs, I noticed in the presentation you mentioned the focus on programs that mess with the Eve client - does that include bots that use OCR to read the screen and emit mouse/keyboard input, or only ones that hack the process directly? (Please be both!) Oh, and keep up the good work. I've been wanting two-factor authentication and a crackdown on bots for a while now. You're like my fairy godmother. Definitely both since the recent bans focused on an OCR bot. 2 different issues. Speculation is that the recent bans were mainly based on online times - most of the people telling they got banned had bots running on an humanly impossible schedule for extended amounts of time (though not necessarily during the last few days). Hardening the client is a more long-term project that should shield the client against several methods that bots use (hooking directly into the EVE client, Python injections, maybe reading/manipulating memory contents directly) - as these methods are also likely to be used to discover & make use of exploits this is a good idea, anyways. From what I understood the focus won't be on detection (CCP already permabans on first-offense if they find out you have tinkered with the client - clever botters make of course sure CCP never receives exception logs, stacktraces, ...) but on prevention. Like any client-side technique this hardening will ultimately be overcome (e.g. botter doesn't inject directly into the EVE client but into some windows library the EVE client makes use of and works his way from there, manipulates memory from outside the VM, ...) but for some time CCP will certainly be able to get some impressive successes this way. There is no way to detect OCR/keyboard&mouse macros reliably client-side as they are really easy to run from outside a VM (guess you could forbid EVE to run inside a VM [as most virtualization products make no effort at all to hide themselves from the guest system] and basically install a rootkit on the customer's computer to prevent any unwanted software from running & monitor Win32 API calls typically used by this type of bot - but that would be hugely intrusive and not very practical). "Hardening" the client against these OCR bots is afaik not really possible if you want the protection to be unobtrusive (no captchas, silly minigames, ...). So for these types of bots the focus will be more on server-side detection than client-side prevention.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.29 09:14:00 - [2035] Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest? I didn't see any in the news. Have we been lied to again? The tl;dr is that the first two times you are caught you only get short temp bans, and that most likely ISK earned by botting will not be taken away
Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous Scum Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.29 09:46:00 - [2036] Originally by: Jessica Autumn Edited by: Jessica Autumn on 29/03/2011 06:57:14 CCP your gonna need to get on this Bots in Dronelands are Farming Drones at the rate of 23,000 a day, 23 fricken thousand ships A DAY!!!.....And all that Isk is going to the Russian Wallets to replace 13 titans in 2 days or 500 abaddon fleet in a day. Lets get on this quick plz.... Agreed. Although dont forget that NC-held teritory is also infested with ratting bots; Venal, Tenal, Deklein, Fade and Branch are particularly notorious in this respect. And all that ISK is going in to NC wallets to replace motherships and titans too! Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.29 10:00:00 - [2037] Also Stain apparently is filled with bots. And maybe not directly involved in replacing supercaps, but the number of icemining bots and courier mission bots is also ridiculous. As long as it is obvious where bots are it should also be trivial to ban them. In the end the location doesnt matter, they all need to be permabanned + all ISK gained removed (yes that includes ISK gone to corp wallets via taxes, it shouldnt have been there in the first place).
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.29 10:15:00 - [2038] Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest? I didn't see any in the news. Have we been lied to again? The tl;dr is that the first two times you are caught you only get short temp bans, and that most likely ISK earned by botting will not be taken away Do you have any info that would suggest that it's likely that the isk is not removed?, seems to me it's very likely that the isk is removed, that happend to the players in the iskbank customer database.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.29 10:55:00 - [2039] RMT ISK is always removed, botting is something else. Anyway maybe I am kinda negative, but at least they havent decided yet what they going to do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs&t=49m00s So while Sreegs want it removed, for now that wont happen since they dont have a policy regarding it yet.
Consortium Agent	Posted - 2011.03.29 11:29:00 - [2040] Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest? I didn't see any in the news. Have we been lied to again? The tl;dr is that the first two times you are caught you only get short temp bans, and that most likely ISK earned by botting will not be taken away If that's all you got out of the video Furb then I'm changing my contact list to not include you anymore :P lol

bitters much Nekkid Inc.	Posted - 2011.03.29 11:36:00 - [2041] 1st time they catch you --> slap on you wrist 2nd time they catch you --> 30 days banz0r 3rd time they catch you --> permaban Only CCP forgot about the possibility for the botter to sell his character for ISK after the 2nd catch and start all over again. Way to go CCP
Darth Vapour	Posted - 2011.03.29 11:39:00 - [2042] The obvious solution is to make any rmt/botting/exploiting bans public by naming the characters. This also has a very effective deterrence effect, far more then just having to make another character.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.29 11:41:00 - [2043] Originally by: Consortium Agent Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Jack Gilligan So what was the big announcement at fanfest? I didn't see any in the news. Have we been lied to again? The tl;dr is that the first two times you are caught you only get short temp bans, and that most likely ISK earned by botting will not be taken away If that's all you got out of the video Furb then I'm changing my contact list to not include you anymore :P lol :( But tbh while I might be kinda bitter, it is most likely what will happen untill they do have a policy, as long as they have no policy I dont see them tracing ISK and putting corporation wallets of botters into negative. I do assume (/hope) that the char that was used for botting will be cleared of ISK, but that is only really relevant if you bot on your main, and people that stupid will most likely die because they forgot they have to breath.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.29 12:24:00 - [2044] Originally by: bitters much Edited by: bitters much on 29/03/2011 11:43:56 1st time they catch you --> slap on you wrist 2nd time they catch you --> 30 days banz0r 3rd time they catch you --> permaban Only CCP forgot about the possibility for the botter to sell his character for ISK, buy a new one of the forums after the 2nd catch and start all over again. Way to go CCP I hardly think it's the case they don't know that people are able to sell characters, seems more to me that it's you who don't understand bans are account based not character. If you get catch two times using bots on you original character, and get catch again on a new character on the same account you are still getting banned.
clixoras	Posted - 2011.03.29 12:46:00 - [2045] Also CCP should 'flag' chars which were caught botting/rmt (if not banned at all). and make Chars which flag untransferrable. I think they should be more strict, caught (and not banned) => delete all assets and isk.
bitters much Nekkid Inc.	Posted - 2011.03.29 12:52:00 - [2046] Originally by: dexington Originally by: bitters much Edited by: bitters much on 29/03/2011 11:43:56 1st time they catch you --> slap on you wrist 2nd time they catch you --> 30 days banz0r 3rd time they catch you --> permaban Only CCP forgot about the possibility for the botter to sell his character for ISK, buy a new one of the forums after the 2nd catch and start all over again. Way to go CCP I hardly think it's the case they don't know that people are able to sell characters, seems more to me that it's you who don't understand bans are account based not character. If you get catch two times using bots on you original character, and get catch again on a new character on the same account you are still getting banned. Only really dump botters would bot on their main account
Itsaso	Posted - 2011.03.29 12:55:00 - [2047] Edited by: Itsaso on 29/03/2011 12:56:14 Quoting Da_Teach (<removed> bot creator) Quote: Here's what I see happening, initially CCP will detect bots by behavior. It's probably how they caught the <removed>, <removed> bot users. Since neither of those two actually change anything within EVE. After most of them are caught, I see CCP going for the 'injectors'. You have two flavors, you have the Python injectors (<removed>) and you have the 'process' injectors (<removed> and <removed>). Both are easy to stop but I see the python injectors easier to stop then <removed>/ <removed>. For the Python Injectors you could easily just remove the PyRun_ functions completely, with no way of them to actually inject Python, it'll end pretty damn fast for them. To disable <removed>/ <removed>in the same way would mean that they'd have to remove the other python functions as well, and those are most likely used by their interal C/C++ functions as well. So that's not really possible. A 'quick' solution would be to mask those functions by using an obfuscator, but that wouldn't stop <removed>(it would stop me, because I'd be too bored to keep searching for the required functions). Once you're done with the obfuscation path, you'd add checks to the Python functions to detect unauthorized usage. This step would have to be done after the obfuscation, otherwise it would be too easy to crack. Possible ways of detecting unauthorized usage would be to send the call-stack to the server (for both the c/c++ functions as for the python functions!), this was done by the Blizzard-Warden and while not impossible, very hard to circumvent. The way to circumvent this would be by modifying the code, however if you then have a separate thread/function/whatever to check for code modifications then it suddenly becomes a factor 10 harder. Once your done with that, here's another simple step. Obfuscate your Python code already, but not in the traditional way. Randomize your byte code! Yes, you have the source for both the Python compiles as you do for the Python runtime. Every patch you change this bytecode and RE'ing the python code has become near impossible. After that you've pretty much stopped <removed> and <removed>or made their life very hard. And CCP, at least give me some credit if you decide to implement some of my idea's ;) Even if it's just by a private email which you can easily deny exists. (and yes I know your most likely reading this!)
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.29 13:00:00 - [2048] Originally by: clixoras Also CCP should 'flag' chars which were caught botting/rmt (if not banned at all). and make Chars which flag untransferrable. I think they should be more strict, caught (and not banned) => delete all assets and isk. Problem is on which accounts? Of course on the one caught botting, but botters will have moved majority of their ISK elsewhere. Imo there should just be a limit at how long they look back, and then also remove ISK from for example corp wallet. And if the minerals gained by the bots were used to build supercaps which were given away for free (as rent for example, or just as way to transfer isk to their main) they should be deleted. If it was sold for a low ammount of ISK (lets say 10B for supercarrier), the transaction should be reversed, if it was sold for normal ammount of ISK then the ISK can just be removed again from the bot and the new owner can keep his supercap. Quote: I hardly think it's the case they don't know that people are able to sell characters, seems more to me that it's you who don't understand bans are account based not character. If you get catch two times using bots on you original character, and get catch again on a new character on the same account you are still getting banned. And why would you possibly keep using the same account if you are going to buy a new char? Obviously you also make a new account then.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.29 13:08:00 - [2049] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 29/03/2011 13:08:05 Originally by: Da_Teach Once your done with that, here's another simple step. Obfuscate your Python code already, but not in the traditional way. Randomize your byte code! Yes, you have the source for both the Python compiles as you do for the Python runtime. Every patch you change this bytecode and RE'ing the python code has become near impossible. According to information on some forum that has been mentioned earlier in this thread CCP used to do this but abandoned it when migrating to Python 2.5 (this would be summer 2007).
Baihuigau Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.03.29 14:34:00 - [2050] Yay for bot killing, maybe mining can be worth it again, but on the other side of the coin i like how they avoided saying which programs are considered bots or not, i would like to have a answer on that, is something like isboxer a bot, since you still need to be at the keyboard to issue commands, but yet he said synergy was a bit iffy which does essentially the same thing as isboxer, if so there will be allot of angry multiboxers out there, if there is one thing that pushes my buttons is when companies implement policies but dont fully explain them, if your going to interpret the tos which he said is his job then make a decision about it and post it, not skirt around the issue.

dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.29 16:50:00 - [2051] Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: I hardly think it's the case they don't know that people are able to sell characters, seems more to me that it's you who don't understand bans are account based not character. If you get catch two times using bots on you original character, and get catch again on a new character on the same account you are still getting banned. And why would you possibly keep using the same account if you are going to buy a new char? Obviously you also make a new account then. What can CCP do more then they are doing now?, unless you are suggesting they should removed character transfer and make it illegal to own multiple accounts, which would be totally pointless and only hurt legit players. Originally by: EULA ii. Termination of EULA CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: (i) you fail to pay the subscription fee when due; (ii) CCP is unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide; (iii) you or anyone using any of your Accounts materially breaches the EULA, makes any unauthorized use of the System or Software, or infringes the rights of CCP or any third party; or (iv) CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct. Such termination shall be effective upon notice transmitted via electronic mail, or any other means reasonably calculated to reach you. CCP reserves the right to terminate any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the closed Account. Termination by CCP under this section shall be without prejudice to or waiver of any and all of CCP's other rights or remedies, all of which are expressly reserved, survive termination, and are cumulative. You will not receive a refund of prepaid subscription fees for a termination pursuant to this section. They can ban all accounts connected to the running the bots, i can't see how it's humanly possible for them to do more.
Shanz3m	Posted - 2011.03.29 17:46:00 - [2052] Quote: 1st time they catch you --> slap on you wrist 2nd time they catch you --> 30 days banz0r 3rd time they catch you --> permaban Could they not also change it so that they remove a large chunk of skill points along with banning the player, as then they can't just jump straight back into their Hulk and start mining at the same rate 23/7 after the ban is over.
Titus Phook Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.29 17:46:00 - [2053] Further to Dexingtons post, any half intelligent botter is probably running through a VPN/proxy or even TOR to obfuscate their IP (TOR is totally possible because Eve requires so little bandwidth it can be played over a 56k modem or 3G via a tethered smartphone), a disposable email address, no phone number listed and paying via a seperate Paypal account/plex/GTC/second card to disassociate their main and botting accounts. I'm happy to see CCP doing something about the bots, I just feel sorry for the innocents that may get caught up in the aftermath. I mine, sometimes actively, sometimes I AFK it while reading or watching a movie, when I'm mining I generally only have to interact with the client every 15 minutes or so as that's how long it takes my hulk to fill, the only interaction it'll get during that time is if a roid pops and I notice it. I don't particularly want to get accused of being a bot because I'm afk and not responding to chat requests or being bumped by some random vigilante that doesn't like miners and assumes all miners = bots. I've already experienced the bumping while mining and the player who was continually doing it by mwding his throax into my hulk got very impolitley told to go forth and fornicate. ---------------------------------------------
Baihuigau Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.03.29 18:27:00 - [2054] Originally by: Titus Phook Further to Dexingtons post, any half intelligent botter is probably running through a VPN/proxy or even TOR to obfuscate their IP (TOR is totally possible because Eve requires so little bandwidth it can be played over a 56k modem or 3G via a tethered smartphone), a disposable email address, no phone number listed and paying via a seperate Paypal account/plex/GTC/second card to disassociate their main and botting accounts. I'm happy to see CCP doing something about the bots, I just feel sorry for the innocents that may get caught up in the aftermath. I mine, sometimes actively, sometimes I AFK it while reading or watching a movie, when I'm mining I generally only have to interact with the client every 15 minutes or so as that's how long it takes my hulk to fill, the only interaction it'll get during that time is if a roid pops and I notice it. I don't particularly want to get accused of being a bot because I'm afk and not responding to chat requests or being bumped by some random vigilante that doesn't like miners and assumes all miners = bots. I've already experienced the bumping while mining and the player who was continually doing it by mwding his throax into my hulk got very impolitley told to go forth and fornicate. With their new security initiative their concentrating more on programs interacting with the client so it should lower wrongfull bans based on the miners that afk for those 15 minutes, whats anoying is that based on what the dev said in the presentation their hinting that multiboxing programs are not allowed but have not given a definate answer on it just that they can interepret the eula like they want and give u a warning ban wonder if their going to keep multiboxers in the dark or come out and say whats allowed or not allowed.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.29 18:58:00 - [2055] Originally by: dexington They can ban all accounts connected to the running the bots, i can't see how it's humanly possible for them to do more. there's a difference between "can" and "do". What could they do more? they could for example exclude characters that have been flagged for botting from being sold on the character bazaar. Of course some people would still their character on 3rd party websites for RL cash or ISK but there's no reason to make it that easy for them as it currently is.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.29 19:00:00 - [2056] Originally by: Baihuigau With their new security initiative their concentrating more on programs interacting with the client so it should lower wrongfull bans based on the miners that afk for those 15 minutes, whats anoying is that based on what the dev said in the presentation their hinting that multiboxing programs are not allowed but have not given a definate answer on it just that they can interepret the eula like they want and give u a warning ban wonder if their going to keep multiboxers in the dark or come out and say whats allowed or not allowed. Multiboxing is allowed, as long as you control all clients. Originally by: GM Lelouch Hello there, To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times. Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping). An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time! Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA. I hope this clears up this matter. Best regards, Senior GM Lelouch EVE Online Customer Support Linkage
mkmin	Posted - 2011.03.29 19:11:00 - [2057] Edited by: mkmin on 29/03/2011 19:14:29 Originally by: dexington Originally by: Baihuigau With their new security initiative their concentrating more on programs interacting with the client so it should lower wrongfull bans based on the miners that afk for those 15 minutes, whats anoying is that based on what the dev said in the presentation their hinting that multiboxing programs are not allowed but have not given a definate answer on it just that they can interepret the eula like they want and give u a warning ban wonder if their going to keep multiboxers in the dark or come out and say whats allowed or not allowed. Multiboxing is allowed, as long as you control all clients. Originally by: GM Lelouch Hello there, To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times. Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping). An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time! Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA. I hope this clears up this matter. Best regards, Senior GM Lelouch EVE Online Customer Support Linkage You didn't see the security vid on fanfest did you? Sreegs said that could change. He has the power to overrule every and all security/anti-cheating decisions previously made by GMs. He said he hasn't decided if boxing software is cheating or not. edit: I'm not sure if I approve of boxing software or not. It does automate gameplay in a way that gives unfair advantage, even if it does take player oversight. Other utilities that might affect the client directly don't affect gameplay (i.e. fraps.)
Baihuigau Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.03.29 19:25:00 - [2058] "edit: I'm not sure if I approve of boxing software or not. It does automate gameplay in a way that gives unfair advantage, even if it does take player oversight. Other utilities that might affect the client directly don't affect gameplay (i.e. fraps.)" Well not entirely, for example isboxer does have a feature where you click lets say target roid and it broadcasts that to the other clients but you do manage one client yourself it just automates the rest, but the biggest feature is it partions all clients your running in one screen so lets say one client a biger size and 3 tumbnail clients bellow it in one screen, thats a big help for those of us who run multi acounts, it also allows hyper fast tabing between the clients, so its not so much the automation but the way it lays out things thats a big help, you can turn off the command broadcast as well, so before they start handing out bans they should disclose a document that lays this kind of stuff out and look at all the major multibox clients out there, in terms of advantage, im paying for the accounts so ccp has technically given me that advantage lol.
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.	Posted - 2011.03.29 19:26:00 - [2059] BTW given that per CCP Fanfest security presentation the security team is three months old does it means it was because of this thread? If so proving again and again that threadnaught and bad press are a far better efficient lever on CCP than the CSM will ever be?
VaMei Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.29 19:31:00 - [2060] Edited by: VaMei on 29/03/2011 19:33:42 Originally by: mkmin You didn't see the security vid on fanfest did you? Sreegs said that could change. He has the power to overrule every and all security/anti-cheating decisions previously made by GMs. He said he hasn't decided if boxing software is cheating or not. I'm pretty sure Screegs is thinking in terms of Eve's program security. If a multi-box app is bypassing the GUI and injecting commands directly, I'd be pretty wary about using it. I'm just going from memory, but he seemed to hint that even though the intent of those programs may not be in violation, their methods could be.

Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.03.29 19:34:00 - [2061] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 29/03/2011 19:35:11 Originally by: Caius Sivaris BTW given that per CCP Fanfest security presentation the security team is three months old does it means it was because of this thread? Sreeg's explanation was that it takes a lot of time to recruit talent in this field (especially when you have a reputation for not paying that well and ask your employees to relocate to Iceland, lol), so I think it's safe to say that CCP has been working hard to find a suitable candidate for the "malware analyst" job opening since at least 2003.
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.	Posted - 2011.03.29 19:40:00 - [2062] Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 29/03/2011 19:35:11 Originally by: Caius Sivaris BTW given that per CCP Fanfest security presentation the security team is three months old does it means it was because of this thread? Sreeg's explanation was that it takes a lot of time to recruit talent in this field (especially when you have a reputation for not paying that well and ask your employees to relocate to Iceland, lol), so I think it's safe to say that CCP has been working hard to find a suitable candidate for the "malware analyst" job opening since at least 2003. 8 years to recruit someone, I guess plan B was to breed one. He actually said that the hard part was finding someone willing to come to Iceland, which is understandable, but really the timeline is suspicious...
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.03.29 19:52:00 - [2063] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 29/03/2011 19:51:46 Originally by: Caius Sivaris 8 years to recruit someone, I guess plan B was to breed one. He actually said that the hard part was finding someone willing to come to Iceland, which is understandable, but really the timeline is suspicious... well, tbh he said he can't comment on what has happened before he got hired and he only got hired in early fall 2010 iirc.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.29 20:28:00 - [2064] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Baihuigau With their new security initiative their concentrating more on programs interacting with the client so it should lower wrongfull bans based on the miners that afk for those 15 minutes, whats anoying is that based on what the dev said in the presentation their hinting that multiboxing programs are not allowed but have not given a definate answer on it just that they can interepret the eula like they want and give u a warning ban wonder if their going to keep multiboxers in the dark or come out and say whats allowed or not allowed. Multiboxing is allowed, as long as you control all clients. Originally by: GM Lelouch Hello there, To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times. Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping). An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time! Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA. I hope this clears up this matter. Best regards, Senior GM Lelouch EVE Online Customer Support Linkage ibtm
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.03.29 21:03:00 - [2065] Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 29/03/2011 21:04:33 Originally by: mkmin Edited by: mkmin on 29/03/2011 19:14:29 Originally by: dexington Originally by: Baihuigau With their new security initiative their concentrating more on programs interacting with the client so it should lower wrongfull bans based on the miners that afk for those 15 minutes, whats anoying is that based on what the dev said in the presentation their hinting that multiboxing programs are not allowed but have not given a definate answer on it just that they can interepret the eula like they want and give u a warning ban wonder if their going to keep multiboxers in the dark or come out and say whats allowed or not allowed. Multiboxing is allowed, as long as you control all clients. Originally by: GM Lelouch Hello there, To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times. Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping). An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time! Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA. I hope this clears up this matter. Best regards, Senior GM Lelouch EVE Online Customer Support Linkage You didn't see the security vid on fanfest did you? Sreegs said that could change. He has the power to overrule every and all security/anti-cheating decisions previously made by GMs. He said he hasn't decided if boxing software is cheating or not. edit: I'm not sure if I approve of boxing software or not. It does automate gameplay in a way that gives unfair advantage, even if it does take player oversight. Other utilities that might affect the client directly don't affect gameplay (i.e. fraps.) Yep... He did mention in a way that it would not be any miracle if some1 got banned from using programs like that. People surely seem to like the grey area and pushing their boundaries as close to the limit as possible. So... it's your decission. If you choose to rat 23/7 - be always there to take care of your market orders - link 10 clients and control all with 1 mouse click - mine entire systems dry day after day after day... go ahead. Just don't come here to whine for any support when one day it is time to pay for consequences. ...or actually after 2nd thought - please do come - those tears are the best. ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)
Baihuigau Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.03.29 22:08:00 - [2066] "So... it's your decission. If you choose to rat 23/7 - be always there to take care of your market orders - link 10 clients and control all with 1 mouse click - mine entire systems dry day after day after day... go ahead. Just don't come here to whine for any support when one day it is time to pay for consequences. ...or actually after 2nd thought - please do come - those tears are the best." I agree that pushes the limits and things like that should be limited, by hope you dont class those that use it to run lets say 3 clients in the same category as someone who runs 5+ clients which is kind of aproaching botting, just because of those players who push things that far, those of us who use it for less clients shouldent be punished as well, multiboxing programs are pretty usefull, maybe have a client restriction as a rule lets say nothing more than 5 clients, then again that would be hard to detect, so its kind of a either u allow it all or nothing, catch 22.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.29 22:46:00 - [2067] Originally by: Baihuigau I agree that pushes the limits and things like that should be limited, by hope you dont class those that use it to run lets say 3 clients in the same category as someone who runs 5+ clients which is kind of aproaching botting, just because of those players who push things that far, those of us who use it for less clients shouldent be punished as well, multiboxing programs are pretty usefull, maybe have a client restriction as a rule lets say nothing more than 5 clients, then again that would be hard to detect, so its kind of a either u allow it all or nothing, catch 22. It has to all or nothing, i else you could just use two multibox setups with 5 clients each.
Latino lover Minmatar SEX WITH PENYS	Posted - 2011.03.29 22:53:00 - [2068] Edited by: Latino lover on 29/03/2011 22:55:08 OMFGOOOOOODD This is f'ucking overwhelming . I never knew there are so f many farmers in this game but Carebears tears are so tasty I cant stop , I have to thank you for beeing so pathetic you eve farmers... They FUC;ing Boosted the anomalies just 1 year ago you pathetic farmers this isnt a nerf its a bug fix , you should say thanx for bills of isk you made durring this time (someone at just 1jump out of empire making the same amount of isk as the guy who's 66jumps out , its pathetic)... no srsly now if you are an old player why the funck do you whine you f;cking farmer ** of sh;it , untill domining how did you made your isk you idiot ?? -- In GIGI we trust !!**
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.03.29 23:06:00 - [2069] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow People surely seem to like the grey area and pushing their boundaries as close to the limit as possible. And, let's keep it real. Some of those most vocally against botting are involved in it themselves, on alts and hidden accounts they thing can't be traced to their mains.
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.03.29 23:20:00 - [2070] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Baihuigau I agree that pushes the limits and things like that should be limited, by hope you dont class those that use it to run lets say 3 clients in the same category as someone who runs 5+ clients which is kind of aproaching botting, just because of those players who push things that far, those of us who use it for less clients shouldent be punished as well, multiboxing programs are pretty usefull, maybe have a client restriction as a rule lets say nothing more than 5 clients, then again that would be hard to detect, so its kind of a either u allow it all or nothing, catch 22. It has to all or nothing, i else you could just use two multibox setups with 5 clients each. Aye... and to be honest controlling multible clients simultaneously may sound harmless to some, but it can give really unfair advantage against someone who sticks with plain original eve client(s) and controls them separately. Example 1: "Player uses external program to control 3 clients simultaneously to move 3 ships from system A to B." Pros to player: Some time saved, less clicking needed, more convient. Cons to other players: Very limited. Comments: Could be converted to ingame feature. Example 2: "Player X uses external program to control 3 clients simultaneously to jump on player Y with 3 ships and attack his 3 ships one by one." Pros to player X: Well synced alpha damage to enemy ship on contact... and thru the fight. Better change to bail from battle if something goes wrong (simultaneous warpout). Cons to player Y: In time it takes to issue action to all 3 clients the fight is prolly already over. Very marginal change to actually win the fight. Very small change to get more than 1 ship saved from the fight. Comments: Perhaps the above example isn't really accurate, but would still classify that as automating game play (cheating). ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)

dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.29 23:36:00 - [2071] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow People surely seem to like the grey area and pushing their boundaries as close to the limit as possible. I can't see how it can be a grey area or pushing boundaries, until CCP decides to change their policy/EULA/TOS you are allowed to use multibox setups. CCPSreegs - Multiboxing
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.03.30 00:05:00 - [2072] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Grey Stormshadow People surely seem to like the grey area and pushing their boundaries as close to the limit as possible. I can't see how it can be a grey area or pushing boundaries, until CCP decides to change their policy/EULA/TOS you are allowed to use multibox setups. CCPSreegs - Multiboxing Well the eula states that "3.You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game." I would say that using 3rd party program to store mouse click on one client window and automatically applying it to random number of other client windows is "macroing". Also if used in PVP/PVE that surely makes it easier to gain items, currency objects, standings and so on... It is also modification of the user interface, as basic interface doesn't allow you to share mouse clicks with other client interfaces... In other words... would say that using program which distributes mouse movement, clicks and keyboard actions to multible clients is seriously breaking the eula. ...but as I said earlier - people should make their own conclusions but also learn to live with the consequences. "Omg they banned my friend who didnt do anything... right?". ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)
Baihuigau Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.03.30 00:28:00 - [2073] But thats the whole point, we shouldent be kept in the dark, either come out and say heres a list of multiboxing programs their not allowed, heres a list of programs allowed ex:fraps.....obviously botting programs are banned, but the point is give a deffinative answer, dont just be like, hey im a arrogant security guy who has all the power and i will swing the ban hammer because i can interpret the eula/tos however i like, which is what the dev dude sounded like in the presentation......as a IT guy i understand what hes saying from a security prespective, but thats why in most IT situations there are written procedures you go trough if you have stuff like tos and eulas, one person can interpret a tos one way the next person can interpret it another way.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.30 00:52:00 - [2074] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Well the eula states that "3.You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game." I would say that using 3rd party program to store mouse click on one client window and automatically applying it to random number of other client windows is "macroing". Also if used in PVP/PVE that surely makes it easier to gain items, currency objects, standings and so on... It is also modification of the user interface, as basic interface doesn't allow you to share mouse clicks with other client interfaces... A keyboard or mouse macro is a sequences of keystrokes and mouse actions, and it has nothing to do with sharing the mouse/keyboard input between multiple computers. And it's in no way a modification of the EVE UI, it's still receiving input from a mouse and keyboard controlled by a human. Multiboxing and automated game play is two different things, and if CCP wants to "ban" multiboxing they should add a paragraph about it when they release the revised EULA.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.03.30 01:02:00 - [2075] Originally by: Baihuigau But thats the whole point, we shouldent be kept in the dark, either come out and say heres a list of multiboxing programs their not allowed, heres a list of programs allowed ex:fraps.....obviously botting programs are banned, but the point is give a deffinative answer, dont just be like, hey im a arrogant security guy who has all the power and i will swing the ban hammer because i can interpret the eula/tos however i like, which is what the dev dude sounded like in the presentation......as a IT guy i understand what hes saying from a security prespective, but thats why in most IT situations there are written procedures you go trough if you have stuff like tos and eulas, one person can interpret a tos one way the next person can interpret it another way. I'm on vacation this week so I haven't been able to keep up with the thread but suffice it to say, my recommendation is to follow the EULA. Any thing ever written down in any way can be interpreted. That doesn't mean we don't make standards and procedures and rules. The EULA states pretty clearly what is allowed. My concern is enforcing the existing rules as stated in the EULA. The first I'd heard of any applications being given some grant by someone to interact with the EVE client directly AGAINST the very clear written statement in the EULA was at Fanfest and I certainly can't answer something like that without doing a bit of digging. If you are interpreting me expressing to you what our responsibilities are as being arrogant than I apologize, but the fact of the matter is that the EULA and TOS are pretty clear and until we amend them to say otherwise I'd follow what they say because that's what you're agreeing to when you play EVE.

Baihuigau Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.03.30 01:08:00 - [2076] Edited by: Baihuigau on 30/03/2011 01:08:08 So then its only a problem if it interacts with the eve client itself? So lets say if it hooks into windows itself then its fine?
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.03.30 01:14:00 - [2077] Then all botting material should be free-space and the code for this be given to all players,starting like, years ago. cmon this is EULA right, highest law on the planet, if you don't provide everyone with the scripts, the CCP is actually in violation of the EULA.
Baihuigau Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.03.30 01:20:00 - [2078] Edited by: Baihuigau on 30/03/2011 01:24:08 Thing is bot programs do hook into the eve client to automate their commands, or use macros to automate it, most multiboxing software does not do that, it just allows you to move your mouse from window to window or clone your movements as in if i move the mouse to the left it moves the mouse to the left real time in all other windows as well if thats what i want, no matter what there is still someone doing the commands in real time unlike a bot which has no one at the keyboard and issues the commands all by itself. Not to mention this part of the eula "You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items" is pretty open ended, lets say i got two clients side by side on the screen and playing both at the same time manually that can be considered a different pattern of play from what ccp considers a pattern of play, just that part itself can get you nailed for almost anything.
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.03.30 01:26:00 - [2079] it's so obvious. people at CCP know exactly how this is being done. but their own knowledge is the ultimate EULA violation. if they were to admit the knowledge, then real monetary damages would have to be remitted in a court of law. this is really the issue here. ....like a bunch of eggheads would not have by now figured out how an auto-code would be carried out. an active team of coders would have just no idea of how this is carried out, *whatsoever*????????????? after what, 6 years? it's completely obvious what has happened here.
Eternal Noob	Posted - 2011.03.30 01:29:00 - [2080] this might even explain their crazy missioning and null-sec decisions of late.

Baihuigau Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.03.30 01:32:00 - [2081] Obviously their trying to cut down the number of botters and hey i welcome that, im a miner and they have completely killed the mining profession, that and the drone regions but thats beside the point, problem is at the moment the eula is too open for interpretation as i stated above, if their going to go ahead with the security teams plan they need a updated eula hopefully thats forth coming.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.30 02:01:00 - [2082] Originally by: CCP Sreegs The first I'd heard of any applications being given some grant by someone to interact with the EVE client directly AGAINST the very clear written statement in the EULA was at Fanfest and I certainly can't answer something like that without doing a bit of digging. To interact with the client would imply that the applications use some form of two-way communication, that is not the case with mouse/keyboard sharing software.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.03.30 02:40:00 - [2083] Multiboxing programs are against the EULA. Even if you're at the keyboard, if you replicate one mouseclick to 10 clients, that's what I would define as "an accelerated rate" of acquisition.
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.03.30 02:51:00 - [2084] Unfortunately for some people adapting to any kind of boundaries is way too difficult... If there wasn't such people, game developers could truncate big part of the eula to only 3 words; "No cheating allowed". Most of the people would understand what it means, but then there is always that one guy who ignores the 2 first letters and starts living in his own reality. Funniest part is that even they write 10 page eulas, there still is that "one guy" around. ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.03.30 03:11:00 - [2085] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein CCP already permabans on first-offense if they find out you have tinkered with the client yet the botters that do this get 3 steps of ban... yeah this makes sense
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.03.30 03:19:00 - [2086] Originally by: dexington Originally by: bitters much Edited by: bitters much on 29/03/2011 11:43:56 1st time they catch you --> slap on you wrist 2nd time they catch you --> 30 days banz0r 3rd time they catch you --> permaban Only CCP forgot about the possibility for the botter to sell his character for ISK, buy a new one of the forums after the 2nd catch and start all over again. Way to go CCP I hardly think it's the case they don't know that people are able to sell characters, seems more to me that it's you who don't understand bans are account based not character. If you get catch two times using bots on you original character, and get catch again on a new character on the same account you are still getting banned. oooor after the first one they sell it to an account that hasnt gotten banned yet?
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.03.30 03:25:00 - [2087] Originally by: Caius Sivaris BTW given that per CCP Fanfest security presentation the security team is three months old does it means it was because of this thread? If so proving again and again that threadnaught and bad press are a far better efficient lever on CCP than the CSM will ever be? BINGO!!! We have a winner! disband the useless CSM. They arent doing what they were supposed to do when they were formed (ofc that was impossible)
Puppet Mas'ter	Posted - 2011.03.30 03:29:00 - [2088] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Baihuigau But thats the whole point, we shouldent be kept in the dark, either come out and say heres a list of multiboxing programs their not allowed, heres a list of programs allowed ex:fraps.....obviously botting programs are banned, but the point is give a deffinative answer, dont just be like, hey im a arrogant security guy who has all the power and i will swing the ban hammer because i can interpret the eula/tos however i like, which is what the dev dude sounded like in the presentation......as a IT guy i understand what hes saying from a security prespective, but thats why in most IT situations there are written procedures you go trough if you have stuff like tos and eulas, one person can interpret a tos one way the next person can interpret it another way. I'm on vacation this week so I haven't been able to keep up with the thread but suffice it to say, my recommendation is to follow the EULA. Any thing ever written down in any way can be interpreted. That doesn't mean we don't make standards and procedures and rules. The EULA states pretty clearly what is allowed. My concern is enforcing the existing rules as stated in the EULA. The first I'd heard of any applications being given some grant by someone to interact with the EVE client directly AGAINST the very clear written statement in the EULA was at Fanfest and I certainly can't answer something like that without doing a bit of digging. If you are interpreting me expressing to you what our responsibilities are as being arrogant than I apologize, but the fact of the matter is that the EULA and TOS are pretty clear and until we amend them to say otherwise I'd follow what they say because that's what you're agreeing to when you play EVE. OMG theyre actually following the EULA!!! WERE SCREWED!!!
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.30 03:32:00 - [2089] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Unfortunately for some people adapting to any kind of boundaries is way too difficult... If there wasn't such people... ...EVE wouldnt exist ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.30 03:33:00 - [2090] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Multiboxing programs are against the EULA. Even if you're at the keyboard, if you replicate one mouseclick to 10 clients, that's what I would define as "an accelerated rate" of acquisition. It's only illegal if you eg. use macros to accelerate the rate of acquisition, tabbing between two accounts is also an accelerated rate of acquisition but perfectly legal.

DR reseacher	Posted - 2011.03.30 03:46:00 - [2091] More stupid bots in hisec grinding missions! http://forum.thehackerwithin.com/
Baihuigau Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.03.30 03:54:00 - [2092] Edited by: Baihuigau on 30/03/2011 03:54:48 Originally by: dexington Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Multiboxing programs are against the EULA. Even if you're at the keyboard, if you replicate one mouseclick to 10 clients, that's what I would define as "an accelerated rate" of acquisition. It's only illegal if you eg. use macros to accelerate the rate of acquisition, tabbing between two accounts is also an accelerated rate of acquisition but perfectly legal. Using two clients with each character using a hulk could also be determined as accelerated rate of acquisition, like i said the eula is too open ended and needs to be updated, to be honest i dont even care for the command replication options of multiboxing programs, i just like the fact that they can devide the clients to take up the space of one screen and allow me to switch between them pretty fast, but yet since thats considered part of the program its unknown if you can be banned for it.
Angel of Night	Posted - 2011.03.30 04:11:00 - [2093] World (and Eve) would be better place if common sense had more room in peoples brainfunctions and brains would actually function ;) This discussion in here sometimes reminds me about a place, where microwaves come with instruction manuals explaining that it is not very healthy practice to dry a cat in this device and that to drive a car you should be sitting on front seat behind the driving wheel and check that doormat isn't in any way interfering with the pedals or it might cause unexpected termination of life in which case legal actions could not be raised against the manufacturer. Now - is there someone who wants to try writing a manual that everyone can undestand? I help with start of the project... Word automatic means some event which actually isn't an event but still does something which is mentioned as unexpected action in hitchhikers guide paragraph six on page four. This can also be referred as hand of robotic intervention landing from the skies to move something what wasn't there before. However it is not actually sure except that thing which wasn't there now is there now making it really hard to deny that it isn't. For this reason this unexpected action happened without anyone doing anything to make it happen so it has to be automatic in the purest form of automaticly around. btw... the point of this entire post was to tell CCP and new security team that they are doing kick butt job and I just wanted to say thank you - in case you didn't quite catch it from the lines above.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.30 04:15:00 - [2094] Look first at the game you are playing before yelling at ppl about exploiting the grey area think really hard about that ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.03.30 04:24:00 - [2095] Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Look first at the game you are playing before yelling at ppl about exploiting the grey area think really hard about that Well if this was ment for me... I am not yelling and perhaps you want to share bit further where are you trying to head with this comment ? ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)
Aura Kindle Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.03.30 05:29:00 - [2096] First post in this huge thread and i dont really have the time to read through 70 pages at the moment, but i think maybe everyone is focusing on what actually happens inside EVE as apposed to what happens outside of eve, which i think is what CCP should actually be doing. To clarify on what i mean, we would all love to get rid of the bots, and there seems to be 100 excellent idea's on how we can accomplish that, but that doesn't really stop or prevent the main issue as some kind of bot will always seep through the cracks. What I feel CCP needs to essentially do, is kill the chicken by cutting off its head (and with that i mean going after the websides that actually sell the isk) instead of going after the players themselfs. Im not a lawyer, but I would take a pretty good bet, that ISK is under the interlectual copywrite protection of CCP, and use of/or selling of CCPs product is by far, break the law? in which you could im-peach every website that is selling isk to mass's as its not theirs to........sell? which breaks any copy protection law you can think of? If you stop the sites, you will essential kill of any RMT that exsist in eve would you? If there is no means to buy isk, you simply wouldn't be able to... but i dont know how far CCP would go if they would be whilling to file suits against websites that are selling their products (if CCP isn't actually allowing them) of course if they are allowing them then all this is just hyper-critical anyway. Google isk and just see how many websites come up, its absolutely rediculas how many you can find with no effort what so ever, and it should be something CCP should strongly consider looking into. This is just my opinion though of course which i dont think will account to much
Laser Purification	Posted - 2011.03.30 05:33:00 - [2097] CCP does aggressively go after RMT and are quick on the ban button because that impacts their profits. Whereas players by and large don't care so much (since CCP sells legal isk anyway). This is about botting where they are a bit more ambivalent and players care more.
Aura Kindle Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.03.30 05:38:00 - [2098] ahh okay, i saw the RMT in topic n thought i'd share my thoughts.... personally think they should go after the websites though still, would help a lot i think.
Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous Scum Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.30 07:49:00 - [2099] So would I be correct in thinking that under the proposed new regime I can bot my little heart out until I get a first warning, at which point I can just stop and keep the profits (using some of them to start up a new account to repeat the process with)? Apart from a personal dislike of cheating, what exactly is my disincentive to make a few dozen billion ISK this way? Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Lors Dornick Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.30 08:20:00 - [2100] Originally by: Malcanis So would I be correct in thinking that under the proposed new regime I can bot my little heart out until I get a first warning, at which point I can just stop and keep the profits (using some of them to start up a new account to repeat the process with)? Apart from a personal dislike of cheating, what exactly is my disincentive to make a few dozen billion ISK this way? Note that during the presentation when they talked about the "three strikes" policy, they also added that it was the normal action, but that they where free to take any action they felt was right in each case. So anyone banking on it being safe to bot until they get their first little slap might be in for a nasty surprise. // Lors

Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous Scum Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.30 09:07:00 - [2101] However if the "wrist slap" is the normal action, then I could reasonably risk it, especially if I'm using a disposable PLEX-supported account. In fact, knowing that there's a small chance of getting instabanned just encourages me to spread the risk by running 2-3 bot accounts instead of one. If I knew for sure that as soon as my accounts got caught botting that they'd definitely be banned, the ISK traced and the receipients punished then I'd be deterred. As it is, the wrist-slap policy seems like it's just a small cost of doing business. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.30 10:05:00 - [2102] Originally by: Sullen Skoung Originally by: Florestan Bronstein CCP already permabans on first-offense if they find out you have tinkered with the client yet the botters that do this get 3 steps of ban... yeah this makes sense Well, CCP doesn't REALLY want to ban them, or anyone, for anything. They are being forced to ban them. But before that they're giving them a few chances to be good little boys, or girls. IMO it should be 14 day ban, coupled with all isk removed. Then permaban if they do it again. As it stands, it's a 7-day, or 14-day ban at first. Quite why they decided on two different numbers on 1st offence is interesting.
Lors Dornick Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.30 10:09:00 - [2103] Originally by: Malcanis However if the "wrist slap" is the normal action, then I could reasonably risk it, especially if I'm using a disposable PLEX-supported account. In fact, knowing that there's a small chance of getting instabanned just encourages me to spread the risk by running 2-3 bot accounts instead of one. If I knew for sure that as soon as my accounts got caught botting that they'd definitely be banned, the ISK traced and the receipients punished then I'd be deterred. As it is, the wrist-slap policy seems like it's just a small cost of doing business. Which possibly is one reason for them to make their statement that their response didn't have to follow the three strikes policy. If they found one of your botting accounts it's not unlikely that they'd take a look on it's history and/or check for related accounts. If they then found 2-3 related bots accounts they might just slap a permaban all related accounts. Counting them as strike 1, 2 and 3 in one go ;) // Lors
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.30 10:11:00 - [2104] Originally by: Malcanis However if the "wrist slap" is the normal action, then I could reasonably risk it, especially if I'm using a disposable PLEX-supported account. In fact, knowing that there's a small chance of getting instabanned just encourages me to spread the risk by running 2-3 bot accounts instead of one. If I knew for sure that as soon as my accounts got caught botting that they'd definitely be banned, the ISK traced and the receipients punished then I'd be deterred. As it is, the wrist-slap policy seems like it's just a small cost of doing business. There is a balance between player numbers and the action taken against bots, i think it's fair to allow CCP to take an approach that keeps player who stop using bots in the game. I do think they should change their 3 strike policy to warning > perma ban or 30 day ban > perma ban, and i think if the deterrent approach does not work they are going to change their policy.
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2011.03.30 10:12:00 - [2105] Originally by: DR reseacher More stupid bots in hisec grinding missions! [url="stuff]link[/url] why would you think it is a good idea to link that?
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.30 10:25:00 - [2106] How is being allowed to get caught botting several times before you get a permaban a deterrent? I call that encouraging botting, especially since there is for now not a policy to actually remove all isk gained by the botting.
Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous Scum Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.30 10:35:00 - [2107] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Malcanis However if the "wrist slap" is the normal action, then I could reasonably risk it, especially if I'm using a disposable PLEX-supported account. In fact, knowing that there's a small chance of getting instabanned just encourages me to spread the risk by running 2-3 bot accounts instead of one. If I knew for sure that as soon as my accounts got caught botting that they'd definitely be banned, the ISK traced and the receipients punished then I'd be deterred. As it is, the wrist-slap policy seems like it's just a small cost of doing business. There is a balance between player numbers and the action taken against bots, i think it's fair to allow CCP to take an approach that keeps player who stop using bots in the game. I do think they should change their 3 strike policy to warning > perma ban or 30 day ban > perma ban, and i think if the deterrent approach does not work they are going to change their policy. The key element is the confiscation of the illicitly gained ISK. Without that, botting is a one-way bet. With any other exploit, the fruits of the crime are taken away. With botting it seems that this is not so. If I RMT 2 billion ISK and get caught, even for a first offence, the 2 bill is automatically removed. Why should botting be different? Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.03.30 10:38:00 - [2108] Originally by: Malcanis In fact, knowing that there's a small chance of getting instabanned just encourages me to spread the risk by running 2-3 bot accounts instead of one. The result of this? Instead of people using 1 account to bot, and CCP receiving payment for 1 account, people are encouraged to use, for example, 4 accounts, for 6 hours each per day. CCP now gets payment for 4 accounts. Sounds like someone's a winner here. The "unusually high number of hours online per day" policy to highlight 1 person, now becomes "there's 4 chars that mine for 6 hours a day. So they're probably actual people.
Shandir Minmatar Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.03.30 11:39:00 - [2109] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies The "unusually high number of hours online per day" policy to highlight 1 person, now becomes "there's 4 chars that mine for 6 hours a day. So they're probably actual people. It is 6h/day per account, but clearly 23.5h/day for a single IP address (for most small time cheaters - yes there will be people botting on multiple IPs) I think CCP really needs to clarify and harden their policy for multi-account banning. And a two-strike policy is better, in this instance, than a three strike. (Or how about they remove the PLEX option on first/second strikes? Pay by tracable, personally identifiable methods or GTFO?) -
Jita Gilligan	Posted - 2011.03.30 11:42:00 - [2110] Originally by: CCP Sreegs I'm on vacation this week so I haven't been able to keep up with the thread but suffice it to say, my recommendation is to follow the EULA. Any thing ever written down in any way can be interpreted. That doesn't mean we don't make standards and procedures and rules. The EULA states pretty clearly what is allowed. My concern is enforcing the existing rules as stated in the EULA. The first I'd heard of any applications being given some grant by someone to interact with the EVE client directly AGAINST the very clear written statement in the EULA was at Fanfest and I certainly can't answer something like that without doing a bit of digging. Dude... Do we have to do your job FOR you? 15 minutes with Google will find you bot after EVE bot which clearly directly hack the client as they go far beyond the usual screen mapping style of the past. This allows MULTIPLE bot clients to run on a single PC. Clearly the EVE client source code leak of some time back has had ramifications and those chickens have come home to roost. I'm past believing that CCP cares one whit about botting and RMT so long as you guys get your "cut" of it (PLEX). I'm now at the point of believing you guys are willfully incompetent.

Jita Gilligan	Posted - 2011.03.30 11:44:00 - [2111] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Originally by: Caius Sivaris BTW given that per CCP Fanfest security presentation the security team is three months old does it means it was because of this thread? If so proving again and again that threadnaught and bad press are a far better efficient lever on CCP than the CSM will ever be? BINGO!!! We have a winner! disband the useless CSM. They arent doing what they were supposed to do when they were formed (ofc that was impossible) The CSM exists because CCP needs a group of "useful idiots" who are fed the illusion that they have won anything more than a free trip to Iceland purely for PR purposes. The CSM aren't "stakeholders" in EVE development but of CCP's PR department.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.03.30 12:57:00 - [2112] Edited by: Kengutsi Akira on 30/03/2011 13:05:15 Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Originally by: Kengutsi Akira Look first at the game you are playing before yelling at ppl about exploiting the grey area think really hard about that Well if this was ment for me... I am not yelling and perhaps you want to share bit further where are you trying to head with this comment ? Firstly it wasnt personalized to you, or Id have personalized it to you. Second, we're all playing a game that epitomizes finding the gray areas in the rules. You really cant then expect the ppl playing this game who have been doing this for as long as the game has been out to suddenly snap to a ruleset overnight, not without a substantial player loss, which is probably why theyre going for the slow burn approach. Originally by: Jita Gilligan what it was supposed to originally be: A player elected representative group who's job is to police CCP and make sure they are honest. IE: the T20 incident. I think that was the part is the quote where it was said would be impossible. ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.03.30 15:13:00 - [2113] Edited by: dexington on 30/03/2011 15:15:09 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: dexington Originally by: Malcanis However if the "wrist slap" is the normal action, then I could reasonably risk it, especially if I'm using a disposable PLEX-supported account. In fact, knowing that there's a small chance of getting instabanned just encourages me to spread the risk by running 2-3 bot accounts instead of one. If I knew for sure that as soon as my accounts got caught botting that they'd definitely be banned, the ISK traced and the receipients punished then I'd be deterred. As it is, the wrist-slap policy seems like it's just a small cost of doing business. There is a balance between player numbers and the action taken against bots, i think it's fair to allow CCP to take an approach that keeps player who stop using bots in the game. I do think they should change their 3 strike policy to warning > perma ban or 30 day ban > perma ban, and i think if the deterrent approach does not work they are going to change their policy. The key element is the confiscation of the illicitly gained ISK. Without that, botting is a one-way bet. With any other exploit, the fruits of the crime are taken away. With botting it seems that this is not so. If I RMT 2 billion ISK and get caught, even for a first offence, the 2 bill is automatically removed. Why should botting be different? CCP Sreegs said that it was what he would like to do, i guess the reason why they don't do it is because it's not always easy to determine the amount of isk generated by botting. If they catch someone only part time botting, should they then also take the isk made by legit play? If a alliance or corp use materials supplied by a player who have been botting in secret, how should they then be punished, it's not that easy to remove 0.1% of a titan. If CCP need to invest man hours each botter they catch it's going to drain resources away from other parts of the game, at the moment it may just be the lesser of two evils to not investigate the isk.
Titus Phook Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.30 17:34:00 - [2114] Edited by: Titus Phook on 30/03/2011 17:37:06 Tbh the EULA is anything but crystal clear, like most EULAs its wording is so vague that interpretation can produce wildly differing results from both CCP and players. This was shown in last years thread on the legitimacy of gaming keyboards, purely because they can use stored keystrokes as hot-keys or macros. The security team may think it's crystal but I can pretty much guarantee their interpretation of it differs from that of other CCP staff. CCP need to clear up the matter of gaming hardware and software like ISBoxer or synergy once and for all in easy to understand plain english, not "legalese", so that everybody knows exactly where they stand in regard to what is legitimate and illegitimate. If they are going to enforce the EULA then they should do it right. example: A specific whitelist of software that is allowed by CCP for use with the Eve client, this could include software such as Synergy, ISBoxer, Fraps and Xfire and any other software that serves the same functionality, I include synergy and isboxer specifically because of the mouse & keyboard cloning that both are capable of, which could be controversial. This whitelist should also say that gaming keyboards and mice are also whitelisted. Any software not on the list that people are curious about should have to petetioned via the security team, as they seem to be the only people with the yay or nay vote on external software. I use synergy myself, I didn't know it could clone the mouse and keyboard until recently which makes it even more useful to me. Fraps and xfire are both capable of producing an overlay on top of the Eve client, I use xfire & fraps to display text chat and fps in an overlay while playing and chatting with friends outside the game. Isboxer looks like synergy on steriods, in light of the feature set I'm seriously considering licensing it for a year but only after a specific "good to go" from the security team, because it looks like they can override previous dev decisions including one made quite recently which is linked to elsewhere in the thread. edit: damn that's got to be my longest post ever, fixed some spelling errors to. ---------------------------------------------
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.03.30 17:56:00 - [2115] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 30/03/2011 17:59:54 you won't get a comprehensive whitelist as much software is ok when used to do one thing and not ok when used to do sth else or used in a different context - usually my G15 is perfectly fine to use with EVE but there are ways to use my G15 that the GM staff wouldn't agree with. You can use ISBoxer just to duplicate keystrokes across clients - but you also can use it to construct fairly potent macro bots (not 100% sure for EVE but I know that ISBoxer has some amazing support for WoW). It's less about what software you use but what you use it for and for that EULA + commonsense is the best guide (and with the commonsense added in it's a guide that contains no loopholes ).
Titus Phook Amarr	Posted - 2011.03.30 18:15:00 - [2116] Edited by: Titus Phook on 30/03/2011 18:25:42 I realise it's highly unlikely we'd get a white list. I also knew that isboxer can be used to create macros, the same can be done using synergy and autohotkey, but requires 2 machines and locks you out of both keyboard and mouse. In my opinion the EULA is too vague though, everybody interpretes it in their own way and that's where the loopholes appear. Commonsense fills them in but for some people Greed/Laziness>Commonsense. Even GMs have differing views on it. ---------------------------------------------
VaMei Gallente	Posted - 2011.03.30 20:20:00 - [2117] Edited by: VaMei on 30/03/2011 20:22:09 Originally by: Titus Phook Tbh the EULA is anything but crystal clear, like most EULAs its wording is so vague that interpretation can produce wildly differing results from both CCP and players. This was shown in last years thread on the legitimacy of gaming keyboards, purely because they can use stored keystrokes as hot-keys or macros. IMO, the EULA is perfectly clear. If you're not playing Eve the way they want you to play it, they can ban you. They can ban you for any reason, or for no reason, and they don't need to explain their reason. The EULA for every MMO I've ever played reads the same way. tldr for any online game's EULA is that it's their ball and their field. If they don't want you to play, you don't get to play. What's not crystal clear is the way CCP has interpreted it. They make exceptions for things that at the time don't seem like an issue, but each exception allows the players to go a little further down that slope, until players find themselves blatantly violating the EULA, possibly unsure of when they stepped outside the rules. Worse is their record on enforcing the ELUA, allowing blatant violations to go without answer long enough that illegal activities become common enough that broader game play is based on it. The implication is that it's allowed, or at worst so loosely enforced that no one considers the possibility of getting caught.
Sciencegeek deathdealer	Posted - 2011.03.30 22:39:00 - [2118] @CCP Sreegs To ask a different question, is there anything that we as players do to really help you in the battle against RMT and botting? -geek
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.03.31 05:36:00 - [2119] Originally by: VaMei Worse is their record on enforcing the ELUA, allowing blatant violations to go without answer long enough that illegal activities become common enough that broader game play is based on it. The implication is that it's allowed, or at worst so loosely enforced that no one considers the possibility of getting caught. Exactly, then when they take a hard line with the rules, they stand to lose a ****load of ppl, so they take the "slow burn" thing and tell everyone theyre ready (finally) to be hard asses about it
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.03.31 19:29:00 - [2120] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Originally by: VaMei Worse is their record on enforcing the ELUA, allowing blatant violations to go without answer long enough that illegal activities become common enough that broader game play is based on it. The implication is that it's allowed, or at worst so loosely enforced that no one considers the possibility of getting caught. Exactly, then when they take a hard line with the rules, they stand to lose a ****load of ppl, so they take the "slow burn" thing and tell everyone theyre ready (finally) to be hard asses about it I only hope that that "slow burn" don't become "too slow burn" and then "no burn"...

Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.03.31 22:07:00 - [2121] Originally by: Aquila Draco Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Originally by: VaMei Worse is their record on enforcing the ELUA, allowing blatant violations to go without answer long enough that illegal activities become common enough that broader game play is based on it. The implication is that it's allowed, or at worst so loosely enforced that no one considers the possibility of getting caught. Exactly, then when they take a hard line with the rules, they stand to lose a ****load of ppl, so they take the "slow burn" thing and tell everyone theyre ready (finally) to be hard asses about it I only hope that that "slow burn" don't become "too slow burn" and then "no burn"... IMO with as rampant as is is in this game, anything other than a one or two strikes plan is just saying that theyre not interested in caring about the problem. There are whole regions where the botters outnumber the players but somehow CCP cant see them.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.01 15:33:00 - [2122] Has anyone noticed any reduction in the bot population? I tend to not frequent systems that harbor them, so I have not really gotten a feel for if CCP Sreegs is getting results. I do know one bot near me is still going.... Any other bot intel?
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.04.01 15:56:00 - [2123] Saw a significant number of my usual courier bots in Kronsur go off-line over the last 3 days (plus one mining bot down). It was noteworthy because it was a pretty large number of them. While I have no direct evidence they were banned or if they are simply cooling their heels/switched accounts, it does look a bit suspicious. However, courier activity in the system is still high, so reinforcements may have been sent in. It would seem that an important issue is whether or not ban rate can keep up with the respawn rate. Although it may be an inconvenience to have to constantly create new accounts/toons, only time will tell if this is sufficient deterrent. I suspect that we are seeing the opening moves of a larger effort and once accounts connections/relationships are established, we may see an escalation of bans. Or hopefully a decrease in bots as the risk of operating them becomes unacceptable. Anyway, as a preliminary report, the effort does appear noticeable. While I have been critical on this issue, I think they deserve some credit.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.01 16:28:00 - [2124] I saw your new thread right after I posted here. I decided to reply here, keep the bot talk in the uber thread for now. There is the issue of if a ban of any sort is a deterrent to botting on a trial account. You may want to check the the age of the new haulers. What would deter botting on a trial account? The only thing I can see is isk removal from whoever gets the proceeds of the botting activity. Cheaters should not prosper. In the security presentation is sounded like Sreegs wants to have isk removal, but that is presently not the policy. Maybe he is getting push-back from other parts of CCP. If so, the re-spawning of trial account bots may give him the ammo he needs to get an isk removal policy in place.
Vantoth Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.01 16:30:00 - [2125] The last I was playing EVE, which was a little over 3 years ago, people were complaining about bots back then and of course CCP said they would be doing something SOON back then too. I guess CCP and the rest of us have a difference of opinion as to what "soon" really means.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.01 16:39:00 - [2126] They did do something: Unholy rage. But with insufficient follow through, the issue returned. It look like CCP has learned from this history, but time will tell.
Vantoth Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.01 19:03:00 - [2127] I have tried searching for references of "unholy rage" in the forum search but get nothing. Could you enlighten me just to what "unholy rage" consisted of?
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.01 21:07:00 - [2128] It was mainly aimed at RMT, but alot of bots got caught up in it. The present scourge of botting for in game advantage was then not the big focus. Dev blog: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=687
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.04.02 14:16:00 - [2129] Originally by: Vincent Athena Has anyone noticed any reduction in the bot population? I tend to not frequent systems that harbor them, so I have not really gotten a feel for if CCP Sreegs is getting results. I do know one bot near me is still going.... Any other bot intel? I would like to know that too... anyone saw any progress???
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.04.02 14:46:00 - [2130] Reports from the field only go so far. It is difficult for players to see the impacts, even if they are paying attentions. For example, although I have seen a drop in logged in courier bots and one mining bot in the system I frequent, it is difficult to say if the bots are just adjusting their log-in patterns, switched accounts, etc. It would be good to get a progress report from an official CCP source. My suspicion is that it will be progress the player base can appreciate.

Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.04.02 14:48:00 - [2131] Originally by: Elanor Vega Originally by: Vincent Athena Has anyone noticed any reduction in the bot population? I tend to not frequent systems that harbor them, so I have not really gotten a feel for if CCP Sreegs is getting results. I do know one bot near me is still going.... Any other bot intel? I would like to know that too... anyone saw any progress??? Yes, they removed up to 1000 accounts.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.04.02 16:04:00 - [2132] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Yes, they removed up to 1000 accounts. Prove that statement.
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.04.02 16:21:00 - [2133] Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Yes, they removed up to 1000 accounts. Prove that statement. I believe the number 1000 comes from the EVE Fanfest Security Presentation, where I think Sreegs was talking about the difference between the new slow burn tactic versus the unholy rage tactic. Sreegs said something to the effect of: 'The number of accounts banned is less than 1000.' So the number 1000 is an upper limit, not an exact figure. That isn't an exact quote btw, and I don't know where exactly in the presentation he says it. On a different note: Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Slate Shoa Questions: SNIP (question was answered) 2) What is CCP going to do to continually prove to the playerbase that bans for botting are: a) occurring at a significant rate (ex: not one botter per day)? b) severe enough to be a significant deterrence (ex: not one day bans)? My take on the subject: Any feature to report bots is meaningless unless CCP can prove that they are continuously acting upon player reports of bots. Playerbase confidence in CCP's willingness to act on player reports must be restored. The bans must also be significant in penalty and rate of occurrence. The presentation addresses this specifically. and Originally by: Slate Shoa Quote: EVE Fanfest 2011 Security Presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs From the presentation, it looks like CCP is streamlining the bot reporting process and coming up with ways to avoid having to make judgment calls for each bot report. This streamlining is good. I would still like to hear what is being done to continually prove that bot reports are being acted upon. In the presentation CCP Sreegs was commenting about how the old bot reporting system has a bad (no) feedback system. It seemed that Sreegs was going to comment on how the new bot reporting system feedback would be changed, but then it looked like Sreegs forgot to talk about it (assuming there was something planned). Are the players who report bots going to be notified if their reports successfully catch a botter? Is there going to be a Wall-of-Shame (or equivalent)? If some privacy agreement is preventing CCP from disclosing the result of a bot report, then that privacy agreement needs to be changed. CCP needs to be visible in its handling of botters and continually prove to the playerbase that botters are being delt with; lack of visibility will lead to additional (and justified) anti-botter rage. I will wait for the Devblog to be published to see if my concerns are addressed there. I am still waiting on the Devblog...
Sirius Cassiopeiae	Posted - 2011.04.02 21:22:00 - [2134] Originally by: Slate Shoa Edited by: Slate Shoa on 02/04/2011 17:26:37 Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Yes, they removed up to 1000 accounts. Prove that statement. I believe the number 1000 comes from the EVE Fanfest Security Presentation, where I think Sreegs was talking about the difference between the new slow burn tactic versus the unholy rage tactic. Sreegs said something to the effect of: 'The number of accounts banned is less than 1000.' So the number 1000 is an upper limit, not an exact figure. That isn't an exact quote btw, and I don't know where exactly in the presentation he says it. On a different note: Originally by: CCP Sreegs, post #1907 Originally by: Slate Shoa Questions: SNIP (question was answered) 2) What is CCP going to do to continually prove to the playerbase that bans for botting are: a) occurring at a significant rate (ex: not one botter per day)? b) severe enough to be a significant deterrence (ex: not one day bans)? My take on the subject: Any feature to report bots is meaningless unless CCP can prove that they are continuously acting upon player reports of bots. Playerbase confidence in CCP's willingness to act on player reports must be restored. The bans must also be significant in penalty and rate of occurrence. The presentation addresses this specifically. and Originally by: Slate Shoa, post #1987 Quote: EVE Fanfest 2011 Security Presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs From the presentation, it looks like CCP is streamlining the bot reporting process and coming up with ways to avoid having to make judgment calls for each bot report. This streamlining is good. I would still like to hear what is being done to continually prove that bot reports are being acted upon. In the presentation CCP Sreegs was commenting about how the old bot reporting system has a bad (no) feedback system. It seemed that Sreegs was going to comment on how the new bot reporting system feedback would be changed, but then it looked like Sreegs forgot to talk about it (assuming there was something planned). Are the players who report bots going to be notified if their reports successfully catch a botter? Is there going to be a Wall-of-Shame (or equivalent)? If some privacy agreement is preventing CCP from disclosing the result of a bot report, then that privacy agreement needs to be changed. CCP needs to be visible in its handling of botters and continually prove to the playerbase that botters are being delt with; lack of visibility will lead to additional (and justified) anti-botter rage. I will wait for the Devblog to be published to see if my concerns are addressed there. I am still waiting on the Devblog... Waiting for Devblog too...
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.04.02 21:38:00 - [2135] Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Yes, they removed up to 1000 accounts. Prove that statement. I can't be bothered. As stated below they said they banned up to 1000 accounts. So it was probably more like 14 accounts.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.04.03 01:31:00 - [2136] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies As stated ... they said they banned up to 1000 accounts. So it was probably more like 14 accounts. This, and even that grain of salt rubs the wrong way. Since when did we all just fall down and start accepting whatever word comes out of whatever dev as gospel? A quick review of the integrity of CCP pronouncements might be in order for the true believers. No, the fact is that we have absolutely no proof whatsoever that anything at all has been done in this regard. It is certainly in CCP's interests to announce, and have the complaining masses believe, that they are now 'on it', so as to get the complaining masses to quit said complaining. What HAS happened is that a good number of legitimate miners are now scaling back their operations significantly, or are dropping mining altogether, at least for a while, so as to avoid being accused of botting by overzealous ragers that aren't playing the game any more than botters are. Whether or not that will affect the market, or the game overall, or in what way, remains to be seen. We have become a community wherein an accusation is all that is needed to launch an investigation, or worse. It is the new griefing, aided and abetted by CCP themselves. Sound RL historically familiar?
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.04.03 08:47:00 - [2137] Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: Chesty McJubblies As stated ... they said they banned up to 1000 accounts. So it was probably more like 14 accounts. This, and even that grain of salt rubs the wrong way. Since when did we all just fall down and start accepting whatever word comes out of whatever dev as gospel? A quick review of the integrity of CCP pronouncements might be in order for the true believers. No, the fact is that we have absolutely no proof whatsoever that anything at all has been done in this regard. It is certainly in CCP's interests to announce, and have the complaining masses believe, that they are now 'on it', so as to get the complaining masses to quit said complaining. What HAS happened is that a good number of legitimate miners are now scaling back their operations significantly, or are dropping mining altogether, at least for a while, so as to avoid being accused of botting by overzealous ragers that aren't playing the game any more than botters are. Whether or not that will affect the market, or the game overall, or in what way, remains to be seen. We have become a community wherein an accusation is all that is needed to launch an investigation, or worse. It is the new griefing, aided and abetted by CCP themselves. Sound RL historically familiar? Would you believe them if they showed you a bunch of graphs concerning server load and performance as before and after snapshots to prove they banned +1000 accounts? Ha! And none of the miners I know are worried in the least about being accused of botting. As such they're not scaling back. Nor are they scaling up in anticipation of CCP's actions.
Florestan Bronstein Amarr Taishi Combine	Posted - 2011.04.03 09:05:00 - [2138] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 03/04/2011 09:09:38 Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: Chesty McJubblies As stated ... they said they banned up to 1000 accounts. So it was probably more like 14 accounts. This, and even that grain of salt rubs the wrong way. Since when did we all just fall down and start accepting whatever word comes out of whatever dev as gospel? A quick review of the integrity of CCP pronouncements might be in order for the true believers. well, reading other forums it seems obvious that CCP has been handing out 14 day bans to quite a few detected botters (who try to overwhelm CCP customer support by disputing every single temp ban via petition in return). The problem is that training a Hulk-ready character is very cheap (using promotions like power of 2 and/or the buddy program and paying with PLEX) compared to the ISK income that a mining bot can generate per month. The time to break even for running a mining bot seems to be very short - and CCP has to detect & ban these bots faster than they break even. Also CCP explicitly allows you to open new accounts if your old ones have received permabans.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.04.03 10:10:00 - [2139] Originally by: Mr Kidd Would you believe them if they showed you a bunch of graphs concerning server load and performance as before and after snapshots to prove they banned +1000 accounts? Ha! No, unless they gave me verifiable raw data and let me do my own analysis, and, of course, that isn't gonna happen, now is it? Again, true believers believe on faith, which is, by definition, unprovable. Originally by: Mr Kidd And none of the miners I know are worried in the least about being accused of botting. As such they're not scaling back. Nor are they scaling up in anticipation of CCP's actions. We obviously know different sets of miners. My post is not intended to get you or any of the other true believers to change their minds or their beliefs. Just realize how many times CCP has stated something and it has not been entirely true, or even false on its face. Believe what you want, but there is NO objective data being presented. Anything you assert is based on faith alone.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.04.03 10:16:00 - [2140] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 03/04/2011 09:09:38 Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: Chesty McJubblies As stated ... they said they banned up to 1000 accounts. So it was probably more like 14 accounts. This, and even that grain of salt rubs the wrong way. Since when did we all just fall down and start accepting whatever word comes out of whatever dev as gospel? A quick review of the integrity of CCP pronouncements might be in order for the true believers. well, reading other forums it seems obvious that CCP has been handing out 14 day bans to quite a few detected botters (who try to overwhelm CCP customer support by disputing every single temp ban via petition in return). The problem is that training a Hulk-ready character is very cheap (using promotions like power of 2 and/or the buddy program and paying with PLEX) compared to the ISK income that a mining bot can generate per month. The time to break even for running a mining bot seems to be very short - and CCP has to detect & ban these bots faster than they break even. Also CCP explicitly allows you to open new accounts if your old ones have received permabans. Yes, anonymous forum posts are always good evidence and can be trusted implicitly. I have followed this issue for many months now, even going so far as to joining the forums of most of the commercially available botting programs, both for mining and ratting. One I know in particular has advocated that its users post there and in other forums that they had received bans so as to decrease the rage of the anti-botting community, as in indicating that CCP is actually doing something. On the other hand, private discussions amongst those users indicate that the status quo has not changed and macroing is continuing unabated. Which anecdotal evidence one believes is up to them personally, but that doesn't change that it is only anecdotal evidence, which is somewhere down below anything real.

clixor	Posted - 2011.04.03 10:43:00 - [2141] Why focus on the UP to 1000 accounts banned? These were probably detected the old school way (i.e. resource heavy). It's more interesting to see what the security team is going to develop in terms of structural automated detection and/or making the client more bot-proof. We all know, and has been said as well, this is going to take a while. CCP however does need to improve it's communication on the matter, after years of silence you can't casually inform the community 'yeah, btw we're working on it', while clearly we're not seeing any change yet. All good intentions aside this is hurting CCP's reputation hugely. My advise: 1. communicate how much accounts are being banned regularly (if process is in place): this will deter the botters and make us +1. 2. be swift and ruthless, ban accounts for life, block ip's. If you break the EULA, especially for RMT, this should be the consequence. Not some lame 14 or whatever day ban. (real players will petition and it should be easy to prove that they were not botting).
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.03 12:06:00 - [2142] Originally by: Vantoth I have tried searching for references of "unholy rage" in the forum search but get nothing. Could you enlighten me just to what "unholy rage" consisted of? a 3 day ban apparently
Mucous	Posted - 2011.04.03 12:39:00 - [2143] Outuni is aperfect baromter of how banning the bots is going. There is any where fron 50-110 players in the system at all times. I live there, undock there and see the bot retreivers/hulks/macanaws running back and forth from the ice belt 23/7. When ever I undock I will be garenteed to have one of the mining ships coming out of the station at the same time. I won't bore you with more details. I use to report them but that process showed itself to be a waste of time and effort. When I see the player count drop in system and less single mining ships warping back and forth from field to station...then that will tell me CCP is doing somthing.
Discrodia Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.04.03 13:22:00 - [2144] Nice unholy rage there OP Originally by: anonymous WE JUST DID SCIENCE!
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.03 15:37:00 - [2145] Originally by: Discrodia Nice unholy rage there OP Is it funny that this unholy rage seems to have had far more of an effect than the actual one?
Ban Doga	Posted - 2011.04.03 15:46:00 - [2146] Originally by: CCP Sreegs If you are interpreting me expressing to you what our responsibilities are as being arrogant than I apologize, but the fact of the matter is that the EULA and TOS are pretty clear and until we amend them to say otherwise I'd follow what they say because that's what you're agreeing to when you play EVE. Since the EULA and TOS are pretty clear can we assume that GM Lelouch's assessment ("Synergy is fine") is accurate? Can you confirm or deny this (maybe after reviewing the software)? I think the point is that the EULA does not appear to be clear at all on some points (eg what is "inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account") and stating that it is clear in your opinion does not really change this. I guess it would be more helpful to make a precise statement about the issue at hand (multiboxing) than repeating "we say what we say". If such a statement cannot be made this probably indicates that the matter is not as clear as suggested.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.03 17:22:00 - [2147] Originally by: Ban Doga Since the EULA and TOS are pretty clear can we assume that GM Lelouch's assessment ("Synergy is fine") is accurate? I think it's safe to assume that CCP Sreegs don't support the assessment of GM Lelouch, he just don't have the balls to say it. He keeps saying the same BS about reading the EULA, trying to avoid giving a straight answer. If he shared the same opinion as GM Lelouch he would just say so, and not keep saying that even a ****** could find the answer in the EULA, when not even the CCP employees seem to agree on what the EULA says on this subject.
Titus Phook Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.03 20:06:00 - [2148] Lets face it, CCP Sreegs is about as evasive on the legitimacy of synergy and the like as a politician is when asked about his expenses. If GM's and the security team have differing views of the EULA & ToS what hope have the players got of getting a clear view of what is allowed & what is not. The security team need to sit down and talk to the GMs that have said x software is ok and formulate a company line from there. If there's not already one in place for CCP staff & volunteers to refer to then put one in place, as it is we are at the mercy of an individuals understanding of what it says. ---------------------------------------------
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.04.03 20:35:00 - [2149] Edited by: Paul Mustaka Hekard on 03/04/2011 20:36:28 Corporations of any size develop and maintain written policy on anything that bears on legal issues. The TOS and EULA, I would imagine, have such backup. However....just like any other corporation, getting the policies consistently enforced can be a problem. I doubt there is any literal ambiguity to the policies, just employees who fail to execute them. I have a special term for employees like that in my organization; ex-employees. Sometimes also known as expediently terminated employees.
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.04.03 22:25:00 - [2150] A long time ago, I advocated making null-sec local like w-space local as a way to make it more difficult for botters (side effect: and consequently real players too) to thrive in null-sec. Someone then made me aware that it was possible to sniff the network traffic to see if someone is in local, regardless of what is displayed to the player. That threw a wrench into the idea of changing null-sec local... From the security presentation it seemed like there is a desire by the security team to detect players sniffing the network traffic, and punish accordingly. Assuming that the security team is able to detect sniffing traffic, does this mean that nerfing null-sec local is now a viable option? Yes there's d-scan, but that's only scans to ~14 au (I think). Opinions anyone?

Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.03 22:47:00 - [2151] Ive been looking for evidence for bot reduction in the Jita market PLEX prices have started to drop, but that could be the end of PLEX for good and rage-quits due to the anomaly nerf. But some could be bot accounts being closed. Mineral prices seem stable, so nothing there. But there are alot of sources of minerals other than macro miners. May take awhile for a effect to be seen here. Ice product prices have increased about 10% in the last few days. Ice mining is one of the most heavily macroed activities because its so easy. This may indicate CCP is in fact doing something.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.03 23:45:00 - [2152] Originally by: Slate Shoa A long time ago, I advocated making null-sec local like w-space local as a way to make it more difficult for botters (side effect: and consequently real players too) to thrive in null-sec. Someone then made me aware that it was possible to sniff the network traffic to see if someone is in local, regardless of what is displayed to the player. That threw a wrench into the idea of changing null-sec local... The server could just stop send the local chat information, then there is nothing to sniff. Originally by: Slate Shoa From the security presentation it seemed like there is a desire by the security team to detect players sniffing the network traffic, and punish accordingly. Assuming that the security team is able to detect sniffing traffic, does this mean that nerfing null-sec local is now a viable option? It¦s possible to detect network analyzers running on the same computer as the eve client, but it¦s easy to setup firewall rules that make it impossible to detect sniffers running on other computers and the same network. CCP can¦t stop anyone with two computers and half a brain from sniffing the client server connection.
moneykeeper	Posted - 2011.04.03 23:57:00 - [2153] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Slate Shoa A long time ago, I advocated making null-sec local like w-space local as a way to make it more difficult for botters (side effect: and consequently real players too) to thrive in null-sec. Someone then made me aware that it was possible to sniff the network traffic to see if someone is in local, regardless of what is displayed to the player. That threw a wrench into the idea of changing null-sec local... The server could just stop send the local chat information, then there is nothing to sniff. Originally by: Slate Shoa From the security presentation it seemed like there is a desire by the security team to detect players sniffing the network traffic, and punish accordingly. Assuming that the security team is able to detect sniffing traffic, does this mean that nerfing null-sec local is now a viable option? It¦s possible to detect network analyzers running on the same computer as the eve client, but it¦s easy to setup firewall rules that make it impossible to detect sniffers running on other computers and the same network. CCP can¦t stop anyone with two computers and half a brain from sniffing the client server connection. Ever heared of encryption?
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.04 00:06:00 - [2154] Edited by: dexington on 04/04/2011 00:07:25 Originally by: moneykeeper Ever heared of encryption? Running like 50K ssl connections are not something you want to do unless you really have to, it takes a lot more resources to do encryption. And it may still be possible to detect players, just by monitoring the network traffic, if a player joining local generates a special traffic pattern.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.04 04:28:00 - [2155] Originally by: Titus Phook If GM's and the security team have differing views of the EULA & ToS what hope have the players got of getting a clear view of what is allowed & what is not. none, and im betting they back up banhammering ppl they want sometimes and not others in the same cases with the "we can terminate ppl whenever we want" section in the eula or TOS I cant remember which. Its not fair, but then it doesnt have to be either, and it doesnt seem like CCP cares wether or not we think its fair.
Calistai Huranu Red Federation	Posted - 2011.04.04 07:14:00 - [2156] Weeks vacation over for ccp sreegs, so any news on when we get the Devblog on this?
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.04 08:02:00 - [2157] Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 04/04/2011 08:04:19 Originally by: Calistai Huranu Weeks vacation over for ccp sreegs, so any news on when we get the Devblog on this? I wonder if we arent too mean for him now lol Id rather like to see them come together and talk TO EACH OTHER on the synergy issue and issue a statement. Theyre acting like they arent in the same company and dont have internal emails or ffs cant talk to each other in person for that matter
Rasz Lin Caldari Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated	Posted - 2011.04.04 13:03:00 - [2158] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 04/04/2011 08:04:19 Originally by: Calistai Huranu Weeks vacation over for ccp sreegs, so any news on when we get the Devblog on this? I wonder if we arent too mean for him now lol Id rather like to see them come together and talk TO EACH OTHER on the synergy issue and issue a statement. Theyre acting like they arent in the same company and dont have internal emails or ffs cant talk to each other in person for that matter They dont and they cant. Read up about Agility or whatever the buzzword is for the developing method they are using. Basically its a slave labour where someone decides your goals for you, gives you few days to implement them and then you spend half that time jerking each other in the circle in the team meeting, next you fail to implement half of those goals but there is no time for delays or fixes so they are abandoned and you get NEW set of goals that you have to spend time talking about and then fail to implement. There is no time for talking to other teams as every team has to waste time in their own circle. Thats how PI happened. They had a list of goals, and they only managed 2-3 out of 10 in time but they still released cos AGILITY is all about releasing.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.04 14:42:00 - [2159] So Agility basically means destroy the game ah I get it
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.04.04 15:16:00 - [2160] You know... I wasn't joking with that CCP setting up shop as an RMT blackmarket retailer story on april 1st, that was the actual joke... anyone with access to the logs in NC GenStab jabber for Feb 4 sure will know the full story and who I was referring to. CCP is this why my account now disconect every 30 secs into login in? The plan was sound, but for how long... time to shut down and re-tool Oh yes I have been naughty... R

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.04 15:59:00 - [2161] Edited by: Othran on 04/04/2011 15:59:57 Part 1 of "who is RoidRipper" is complete - whois is populated, so you can see the registrants address; Part 2 is now in progress - time to get a real registrant name or the domain gets suspended. Nominet is on the case as we speak; Part 3 will no doubt be follow the money, couple of weeks I guess...... I got bored this week so I followed up a couple of things RoidRipper=publicdemands
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.04 16:25:00 - [2162] Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 04/04/2011 15:59:57 Part 1 of "who is RoidRipper" is complete - whois is populated, so you can see the registrants address; Part 2 is now in progress - time to get a real registrant name or the domain gets suspended. Nominet is on the case as we speak; Part 3 will no doubt be follow the money, couple of weeks I guess...... I got bored this week so I followed up a couple of things RoidRipper=publicdemands Part 4 publicdemands.com goes online...
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.04.04 16:29:00 - [2163] Originally by: Vincent Athena Ice product prices have increased about 10% in the last few days. Ice mining is one of the most heavily macroed activities because its so easy. This may indicate CCP is in fact doing something. I doubt it. It's probably more an indication that people think CCP might be doing something and are therefore taking a position on ice products before the effects are really felt.
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.04.04 16:44:00 - [2164] YAY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDSNd_w86Hw They have finally spelled out how and when they will be permabanning people. Go to 13 minutes in for the bot discussion. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.04 17:34:00 - [2165] Edited by: Othran on 04/04/2011 17:34:57 Originally by: dexington Part 4 publicdemands.com goes online... Oh quite probably but the trail is there with Paypal transaction numbers. If its a .co.uk registered to a UK resident (ostensibly) then Revenue & Customs will be happy to come play. Couple of thousand x $15US per version (so $15US/sub a year really) is ú20k a year over the years. If it isn't a UK resident then it at least pushes up transaction costs as its a .com It amuses me and its utterly trivial to do, so when I'm bored I do stuff like this. Horses for courses really - you troll and thats about it these days but whatever floats your boat.
Pandadora	Posted - 2011.04.04 19:21:00 - [2166] Edited by: Pandadora on 04/04/2011 19:22:02 Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 04/04/2011 17:34:57 Originally by: dexington Part 4 publicdemands.com goes online... Oh quite probably but the trail is there with Paypal transaction numbers. If its a .co.uk registered to a UK resident (ostensibly) then Revenue & Customs will be happy to come play. Couple of thousand x $15US per version (so $15US/sub a year really) is ú20k a year over the years. If it isn't a UK resident then it at least pushes up transaction costs as its a .com It amuses me and its utterly trivial to do, so when I'm bored I do stuff like this. Horses for courses really - you troll and thats about it these days but whatever floats your boat. Whatever one think about botting, but taking this into RL just cross the line. Your an assh0le.
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.04.04 21:04:00 - [2167] Originally by: Pandadora Edited by: Pandadora on 04/04/2011 19:22:02 Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 04/04/2011 17:34:57 Originally by: dexington Part 4 publicdemands.com goes online... Oh quite probably but the trail is there with Paypal transaction numbers. If its a .co.uk registered to a UK resident (ostensibly) then Revenue & Customs will be happy to come play. Couple of thousand x $15US per version (so $15US/sub a year really) is ú20k a year over the years. If it isn't a UK resident then it at least pushes up transaction costs as its a .com It amuses me and its utterly trivial to do, so when I'm bored I do stuff like this. Horses for courses really - you troll and thats about it these days but whatever floats your boat. Whatever one think about botting, but taking this into RL just cross the line. Your an assh0le. Why is he an *******??? every person that have page like that and is doing things like that is aware that that is criminal activity... and that there may be consequences... and i say... that person deserves it... becouse not only that he is doing criminal activities... he is ruining game for ppl that pay for it...

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.04 23:10:00 - [2168] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 04/04/2011 08:04:19 Originally by: Calistai Huranu Weeks vacation over for ccp sreegs, so any news on when we get the Devblog on this? I wonder if we arent too mean for him now lol Id rather like to see them come together and talk TO EACH OTHER on the synergy issue and issue a statement. Theyre acting like they arent in the same company and dont have internal emails or ffs cant talk to each other in person for that matter Hey guys it ended today chill out :( I'll say something about Synergy when we have something to say. I'm aware that the issue's out there. Expect a dev blog in the next week or so but I'd expect more about communicating the ongoing process than I would restating the same things that are available for anyone on youtube at the moment.

Gangster101 PureLove	Posted - 2011.04.05 00:04:00 - [2169] NERD RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!! lol
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.05 00:41:00 - [2170] Originally by: CCP Sreegs I'd expect more about communicating the ongoing process than I would restating the same things that are available for anyone on youtube at the moment. ...no offense, and I REALLY REALLY dont mean to be mean but you REALLY dont understand the people you are talking to here do you?

Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.04.05 08:10:00 - [2171] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 04/04/2011 08:04:19 Originally by: Calistai Huranu Weeks vacation over for ccp sreegs, so any news on when we get the Devblog on this? I wonder if we arent too mean for him now lol Id rather like to see them come together and talk TO EACH OTHER on the synergy issue and issue a statement. Theyre acting like they arent in the same company and dont have internal emails or ffs cant talk to each other in person for that matter Hey guys it ended today chill out :( I'll say something about Synergy when we have something to say. I'm aware that the issue's out there. Expect a dev blog in the next week or so but I'd expect more about communicating the ongoing process than I would restating the same things that are available for anyone on youtube at the moment. I am hoping to see more then just words in the next weeks...
vswcz1	Posted - 2011.04.05 09:00:00 - [2172] While almost of 'small fishes' - roidripper's users were banned (based on reading their forum), the big ones (some alliances from deep nullsec) sell tons of isk from real money without hitting. One swallow does not make a summer.
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:53:00 - [2173] Edited by: riverini on 05/04/2011 16:03:07 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys it ended today chill out :( I'll say something about Synergy when we have something to say. I'm aware that the issue's out there. Expect a dev blog in the next week or so but I'd expect more about communicating the ongoing process than I would restating the same things that are available for anyone on youtube at the moment. We enjoyed a lot your FanFest presentation, even featured it in EN24, yet I believe some questions fail to be addressed there, we (EN24) are running an article next week where we point out who was booted from their alliances and thos who wasn't during our outing of RMTers, depicting who's tolerant on the issue and who is not, as EVE isn't a sharded multivers, a single RMT operation can create a devastating effect on the market, it is our belief that 3 strike stuff is just too soft on anyone breaking the rules. We would like to know why CCP is tolerant on the issue, I mean 3 strikes is just too lenient for people who have +20 accounts (and you know is not an exaggeration when i say 20 accounts) Secondly, I feel CCP is not working enough on prevention, you presentation was all about being reactive rather than proactive and this is something that I have always criticized CCP as a whole, yet, you never mentioned any kind of "preemptive" or deterrent factors for whooing anyone of even considering doing RMT or botting. (even a a wall of shame would work FFS) And while CCP bosses has given specific instructions all their employees at not talking to EN24, since we have "gravely exposed critical vulnerabilities in our corporate products without express acknowledgement from CCP", we do are interested in see results. The game has degraded to the point that the only part that CCP DOESN'T CONTROL which is the metagaming, is basically the single most engaging and customer-return warrant that Eve online still have and sadly that part is also being heavily corroded tru RMT. I also take this chance to throw a challenge, there is a party right now, not associated to evenews24 at all, who has started their own botting operation, they are documenting how far are they reaching before being caught, they are calling the operation off after some time has passed, while we have expressed to them and publicly that we do NOT ENDORSE or ENCOURAGE any activity that encourages either the breaking of the EULA, TOS or local laws, this report might prove interesting what ever the out come might be and we have welcomed any feedback they voluntarily would like to give, if they were to finish and send their project. R
Pandadora	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:16:00 - [2174] Originally by: Elanor Vega Why is he an *******??? every person that have page like that and is doing things like that is aware that that is criminal activity... and that there may be consequences... and i say... that person deserves it... becouse not only that he is doing criminal activities... he is ruining game for ppl that pay for it... No, botting or the programming of bots is not illegal. Its against the rules of CCP, and thus they need to address the problem. Also, the reason here is obviously just some kind of personal vendetta and not some form of criminal prevention (even if the author is right with his accusation, i doubt he check the rightness of .co.uk domains all day to check if they valid. This is in the same league as throwing stones in the window of political opponents, because you dont like what they say. Thus, he is an assh0le. :)
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:24:00 - [2175] Originally by: Pandadora Originally by: Elanor Vega Why is he an *****??? every person that have page like that and is doing things like that is aware that that is criminal activity... and that there may be consequences... and i say... that person deserves it... becouse not only that he is doing criminal activities... he is ruining game for ppl that pay for it... No, botting or the programming of bots is not illegal. Its against the rules of CCP, and thus they need to address the problem. Also, the reason here is obviously just some kind of personal vendetta and not some form of criminal prevention (even if the author is right with his accusation, i doubt he check the rightness of .co.uk domains all day to check if they valid. This is in the same league as throwing stones in the window of political opponents, because you dont like what they say. Thus, he is an assh0le. :) We have a person writing bots to cheat in Eve. He charges $15US per version as far as I can tell. For $15US you can (and I quote) "never pay for Eve again". He utilises a .co.uk address to process the payments and fails to follow the law in England & Wales for that website. He lies about who has registered the domain - or he's forgotten where he lives now He doesn't pay tax on his earnings for the bots. Now think how much I care about you? That's right, I worry more about what my ** looks like than you
Malcanis Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous IMPERIAL LEGI0N	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:35:00 - [2176] Originally by: Pandadora Originally by: Elanor Vega Why is he an *****??? every person that have page like that and is doing things like that is aware that that is criminal activity... and that there may be consequences... and i say... that person deserves it... becouse not only that he is doing criminal activities... he is ruining game for ppl that pay for it... No, botting or the programming of bots is not illegal. Its against the rules of CCP, and thus they need to address the problem. Also, the reason here is obviously just some kind of personal vendetta and not some form of criminal prevention (even if the author is right with his accusation, i doubt he check the rightness of .co.uk domains all day to check if they valid. This is in the same league as throwing stones in the window of political opponents, because you dont like what they say. Thus, he is an assh0le. :) Tell us more about why we should take the side of cheaters and tax dodgers. Your botter-sympathiser tears are delicious. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always** to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.04.05 17:09:00 - [2177] Originally by: Pandadora Originally by: Elanor Vega Why is he an *******??? every person that have page like that and is doing things like that is aware that that is criminal activity... and that there may be consequences... and i say... that person deserves it... becouse not only that he is doing criminal activities... he is ruining game for ppl that pay for it... No, botting or the programming of bots is not illegal. Its against the rules of CCP, and thus they need to address the problem. Also, the reason here is obviously just some kind of personal vendetta and not some form of criminal prevention (even if the author is right with his accusation, i doubt he check the rightness of .co.uk domains all day to check if they valid. This is in the same league as throwing stones in the window of political opponents, because you dont like what they say. Thus, he is an assh0le. :) Well... botting or programing bots is not illegal... its true... but selling it... thats illegal... If that person has company registered for programing and selling and that person is programing and selling bots than that is ok... he is doing that, paying taxes to country and he is willingly taking consequences for his acts and his goods... and in that case consequences are lawsuits and legal claims raised by CCP... and penalties arising from these lawsuits... so... untill i see that owner of that web page has company registered for doing this things, and that he is paying taxes for it... He is NOT an assh0le...
Pandadora	Posted - 2011.04.05 17:13:00 - [2178] Just to set the record straight: Im in no way for botting. Im agains self-righteous people. I dont want the mob play police in rl either. Anyway, do whatever you think is right. I think CCP should handle the problem, period.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.05 17:19:00 - [2179] Edited by: Othran on 05/04/2011 17:19:15 Sorry Elanor Vega but you don't quite get it. Its simple really - if you use a .co.uk (or any other .uk) domain for the purposes of trading (ie I mean commercial use, buying/selling) then you are legally obliged to provide certain information on the index page of that website. That information is name, postal address, email and telephone number. They must ALL be valid, if not you have broken Distance Selling Regulations, which is civil law - possibly criminal depending on what you did next. However if you DO use a .uk address for trading and don't disclose it (the usual "registrant is a non-trading individual who has opted out") then that domain is in breach of contract and Nominet WILL pursue the matter fairly quickly.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.05 21:11:00 - [2180] Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 05/04/2011 21:12:54 Originally by: riverini And while CCP bosses has given specific instructions all their employees at not talking to EN24, since we have "gravely exposed critical vulnerabilities in our corporate products without express acknowledgement from CCP", Knowing the way theyve dealt with this in the past, Im fairly surprised you havent been permabanned like ********** lol elanor, the mod gets you for evading the profanity filter but not the guy you quoted thats done it like 3 times so far

Pandadora	Posted - 2011.04.05 21:34:00 - [2181] Edited by: Pandadora on 05/04/2011 21:35:47 Wonderd about that too. Anyway, somehow i had to thought about this reading here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3jt5ibfRzw SHE TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!!!...I got better What do you do with witches? BURN EM!!!!!!!!!!! And what do you burn apart from witches? MOREWITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.05 22:02:00 - [2182] Originally by: riverini Edited by: riverini on 05/04/2011 16:03:07 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Hey guys it ended today chill out :( I'll say something about Synergy when we have something to say. I'm aware that the issue's out there. Expect a dev blog in the next week or so but I'd expect more about communicating the ongoing process than I would restating the same things that are available for anyone on youtube at the moment. We enjoyed a lot your FanFest presentation, even featured it in EN24, yet I believe some questions fail to be addressed there, we (EN24) are running an article next week where we point out who was booted from their alliances and thos who wasn't during our outing of RMTers, depicting who's tolerant on the issue and who is not, as EVE isn't a sharded multivers, a single RMT operation can create a devastating effect on the market, it is our belief that 3 strike stuff is just too soft on anyone breaking the rules. We would like to know why CCP is tolerant on the issue, I mean 3 strikes is just too lenient for people who have +20 accounts (and you know is not an exaggeration when i say 20 accounts) Secondly, I feel CCP is not working enough on prevention, you presentation was all about being reactive rather than proactive and this is something that I have always criticized CCP as a whole, yet, you never mentioned any kind of "preemptive" or deterrent factors for whooing anyone of even considering doing RMT or botting. (even a a wall of shame would work FFS) And while CCP bosses has given specific instructions all their employees at not talking to EN24, since we have "gravely exposed critical vulnerabilities in our corporate products without express acknowledgement from CCP", we do are interested in see results. The game has degraded to the point that the only part that CCP DOESN'T CONTROL which is the metagaming, is basically the single most engaging and customer-return warrant that Eve online still have and sadly that part is also being heavily corroded tru RMT. I also take this chance to throw a challenge, there is a party right now, not associated to evenews24 at all, who has started their own botting operation, they are documenting how far are they reaching before being caught, they are calling the operation off after some time has passed, while we have expressed to them and publicly that we do NOT ENDORSE or ENCOURAGE any activity that encourages either the breaking of the EULA, TOS or local laws, this report might prove interesting what ever the out come might be and we have welcomed any feedback they voluntarily would like to give, if they were to finish and send their project. R I appreciate your concern on the subject. As I said in my presentation RMT is a different issue from botting and it's an issue we also mean to tackle. We focused on botting first, as there will be an impact on some piece of RMT and as it's a much more tangible problem from an analytical perspective, at least to me though I'm sure there will be many who may disagree. You are not the only person who finds the three strikes rule to be lenient. As I said in my presentation if it doesn't curb things we'll up the stakes. If you want to editorialize and call that "tolerant" then that's your prerogative but the fact is that accounts are being actioned against and from what we're seeing initially a downward trend has started. I'd enjoy hearing your ideas about proactive mitigation of potential future threats that were somehow not alluded to by our mention of protecting the client. I don't know everything and perhaps you could give me some fresh ideas. As for the rest I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to the topic, which I believe to be botting, rather than wrapping a perfectly sensible post around a pile of editorialization. It makes it difficult to pick out the bits that warrant a response.

Xylengra	Posted - 2011.04.05 22:20:00 - [2183] Originally by: CCP Sreegs As for the rest I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to the topic, which I believe to be botting, rather than wrapping a perfectly sensible post around a pile of editorialization. It makes it difficult to pick out the bits that warrant a response. Wow... Just wow.
Jack Gilligan Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.04.05 22:37:00 - [2184] Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: CCP Sreegs As for the rest I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to the topic, which I believe to be botting, rather than wrapping a perfectly sensible post around a pile of editorialization. It makes it difficult to pick out the bits that warrant a response. Wow... Just wow. Yeah, the arrogance and hubris is quite mind numbing isn't it? Of course, after tomorrow's massive ninja chop to the balls nerf of 0.0 isk making for the majority of the average honest players, I'm about to the point of endorsing that we ALL start botting. I won't do that of course, the logical move is to quit doing business with a company that has so little regard for the wishes of those of us who merely give them money to eat, pay the mortgage, send the kids to college, etc...
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.05 22:42:00 - [2185] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Yeah, the arrogance and hubris is quite mind numbing isn't it? Is liked it better then your brain dead whining...

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.05 22:52:00 - [2186] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: CCP Sreegs As for the rest I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to the topic, which I believe to be botting, rather than wrapping a perfectly sensible post around a pile of editorialization. It makes it difficult to pick out the bits that warrant a response. Wow... Just wow. Yeah, the arrogance and hubris is quite mind numbing isn't it? Of course, after tomorrow's massive ninja chop to the balls nerf of 0.0 isk making for the majority of the average honest players, I'm about to the point of endorsing that we ALL start botting. I won't do that of course, the logical move is to quit doing business with a company that has so little regard for the wishes of those of us who merely give them money to eat, pay the mortgage, send the kids to college, etc... I don't really see what the problem is with stating that if you intend to have a dialogue it's a little easier for me to respond to you when you're referring to the subject matter at hand (botting, which I CAN respond to) rather than wrapping a bit about botting around a great deal of rage and opinion that is not on topic. If that comes off as arrogant to you than I certainly apologize.

riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.04.05 22:57:00 - [2187] Originally by: CCP Sreegs I appreciate your concern on the subject. As I said in my presentation RMT is a different issue from botting and it's an issue we also mean to tackle. We focused on botting first, as there will be an impact on some piece of RMT and as it's a much more tangible problem from an analytical perspective, at least to me though I'm sure there will be many who may disagree. You are not the only person who finds the three strikes rule to be lenient. As I said in my presentation if it doesn't curb things we'll up the stakes. If you want to editorialize and call that "tolerant" then that's your prerogative but the fact is that accounts are being actioned against and from what we're seeing initially a downward trend has started. I'd enjoy hearing your ideas about proactive mitigation of potential future threats that were somehow not alluded to by our mention of protecting the client. I don't know everything and perhaps you could give me some fresh ideas. As for the rest I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to the topic, which I believe to be botting, rather than wrapping a perfectly sensible post around a pile of editorialization. It makes it difficult to pick out the bits that warrant a response. It takes one to recognize another true Eve Player, I give you that. My criticism as the punishment being a lenient one and this is an understandable company policy (as opposed to a Sreeg's policy), which I label as constructive, goes on the lack of a social deterrent, the fact that Eve is in the end a social game, even more than a space game, some times is ignored as mechanical punishments (bans, red wallets) are seen by some players simply as annoyances or in the case of dedicated botters as write offs or "business expenses". Efforts must be taken for corps to find unacceptable RMT operations, we have many examples in RL that comes to mind, one of it is the unfair use of handicap parking spaces, while there is always one prick that doesn't respect the imposed social rules I think it is fair to say that using handicap spaces is a strong social offense. In this same spirit, the punishment should transcend simple mechanics, people "launder isk" in jita 4-4 through a myriad of ways. While the ultimate answer should like in the hands of the game developers, am simply providing feedback by saying that even a "botter" tag on the profile picture or tagging their whole corp as a holder of botters (seriously, all those wallets corp tax blinks and not a single suspicion?), should be a good starter as a social deterrent. Regarding the market bots, which you mentioned briefly, I find hard to believe that some action has been taken on to them (yet, we know your team has been recently setup), yet a good start would be to clean up jita, you don' need to be a genious to just log into jita and check local for all the bot spam, either someone is not paying attention or who ever is in charge of overseeing jita is simply not doing his job properly as jita is a bot-nest to the point that doing market-pvp there is a joke, but please don't take my word for it, simply log into and see what has been going on in your most populated system for years. IDK if you guys have already replied to this question, but after a character take a "first strike", does that character gets locked into the RL holding account or it can be sold/transfered freely?

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.05 23:12:00 - [2188] Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 05/04/2011 23:13:00 Originally by: riverini It takes one to recognize another true Eve Player, I give you that. My criticism as the punishment being a lenient one and this is an understandable company policy (as opposed to a Sreeg's policy), which I label as constructive, goes on the lack of a social deterrent, the fact that Eve is in the end a social game, even more than a space game, some times is ignored as mechanical punishments (bans, red wallets) are seen by some players simply as annoyances or in the case of dedicated botters as write offs or "business expenses". Efforts must be taken for corps to find unacceptable RMT operations, we have many examples in RL that comes to mind, one of it is the unfair use of handicap parking spaces, while there is always one prick that doesn't respect the imposed social rules I think it is fair to say that using handicap spaces is a strong social offense. In this same spirit, the punishment should transcend simple mechanics, people "launder isk" in jita 4-4 through a myriad of ways. While the ultimate answer should like in the hands of the game developers, am simply providing feedback by saying that even a "botter" tag on the profile picture or tagging their whole corp as a holder of botters (seriously, all those wallets corp tax blinks and not a single suspicion?), should be a good starter as a social deterrent. Regarding the market bots, which you mentioned briefly, I find hard to believe that some action has been taken on to them (yet, we know your team has been recently setup), yet a good start would be to clean up jita, you don' need to be a genious to just log into jita and check local for all the bot spam, either someone is not paying attention or who ever is in charge of overseeing jita is simply not doing his job properly as jita is a bot-nest to the point that doing market-pvp there is a joke, but please don't take my word for it, simply log into and see what has been going on in your most populated system for years. IDK if you guys have already replied to this question, but after a character take a "first strike", does that character gets locked into the RL holding account or it can be sold/transfered freely? I believe what you're referring to as a deterrent is publicly marking the characters via API or some other mechanism as botters so that corps can clean out their detritus. You're not the first person to mention it and I'll bring it up with the team. If I'm misunderstanding that please let me know. I'm not adamantly opposed to the idea PERSONALLY offhand, but I haven't spent a lot of time beating it up either. I think the most heinous example off the top of my head would be that when a character DOES legally change hands, forcing some new guy to wear a scarlet letter for someone else's actions is a bit of a bummer. At the end of the day, you are correct in stating that there's a lot of work to be done. I'm well aware of that and am not trying to sugar coat the issue. What I'm trying to state is that we know there's a lot of work to be done. We're committed to doing the work and we have a diverse and experienced group of people working on the issue. Market bots are being looked at as well. Noticeable increases or decreases in particular types of botting will fluctuate as we zero in on and tune the detections. We are aware of character transfers being a loophole and will be closing it. How is still a matter of internal discussion. :edit: It's really not much of a loophole but is not where it should be from my perspective

Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.04.05 23:12:00 - [2189] There is rather easy way to make life of (mining) bots much harder... I know that people are against captcha but if this was implemented to work with the report bot button, it would efficiently stop the bot and also provide data about characters "after report" behauvior to devs... So... in nutshell the idea is that when some player hits report bot button, reported character gets notification in mail and link to some captcha. The catch is that reported player can not undock or do any market orders before the captcha has been completed. ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.05 23:19:00 - [2190] Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 05/04/2011 23:20:22 Originally by: Grey Stormshadow There is rather easy way to make life of (mining) bots much harder... I know that people are against captcha but if this was implemented to work with the report bot button, it would efficiently stop the bot and also provide data about characters "after report" behauvior to devs... So... in nutshell the idea is that when some player hits report bot button, reported character gets notification in mail and link to some captcha. The catch is that reported player can not undock or do any market orders before the captcha has been completed. Captcha has been discussed in the past. At this point in time we're not implementing it. That doesn't mean we never would, it just means not at this time. We're going to fight this particular fight using a somewhat standard tried and tested security toolbox in some places and be more creative in others, but at the end of the day we're going to trend the numbers down and the measure of success for ourselves will be a steady downward trend in botting, in botting-related income and in sites offering said bots. Ultimately as an initial salvo we're sending the message that this isn't going to be easy anymore. :edit: Ultimately this increases our focus on RMT as well


dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.05 23:24:00 - [2191] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow There is rather easy way to make life of (mining) bots much harder... I know that people are against captcha but if this was implemented to work with the report bot button, it would efficiently stop the bot and also provide data about characters "after report" behauvior to devs... So... in nutshell the idea is that when some player hits report bot button, reported character gets notification in mail and link to some captcha. The catch is that reported player can not undock or do any market orders before the captcha has been completed. You can get people in India to solve captcha for 1.50$ pr 1000 captchas, it would take a week before it's a standard option in bots.
Amberlamps	Posted - 2011.04.05 23:34:00 - [2192] I can see the next few days encouraging people into botting, I find it hard enough to find time to play on Eve. I love PvP but I need ISK for that, what ends up happening is I grind for the time I can actually play just so come the weekend I can lose a ship or two in combat. Now I will have to grind much longer considering nothing of real value will spawn in the majority of 0.0, anything below a Haven just isn't worth doing. Other than grinding for 2 weeks before I PvP for one weekend I guess we could all just use a bot or two though... seems like we've got 3 strikes to do it until we get bummed.
Trinneth Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters	Posted - 2011.04.06 00:12:00 - [2193] Originally by: CCP Sreegs You are not the only person who finds the three strikes rule to be lenient. As I said in my presentation if it doesn't curb things we'll up the stakes. Could you explain to us how the three strikes rule was arrived at? In order for 3 strikes to be the policy, someone at CCP must have argued for it in the face of a widespread belief that CCP was tolerant of non-RMT related botting, so what was their reasoning? What purpose does that second warning serve, and what advantages does 3 strikes have over - say - two strikes?
Checka Mara	Posted - 2011.04.06 00:25:00 - [2194] Originally by: Amberlamps I can see the next few days encouraging people into botting, I find it hard enough to find time to play on Eve. I love PvP but I need ISK for that, what ends up happening is I grind for the time I can actually play just so come the weekend I can lose a ship or two in combat. Now I will have to grind much longer considering nothing of real value will spawn in the majority of 0.0, anything below a Haven just isn't worth doing. Other than grinding for 2 weeks before I PvP for one weekend I guess we could all just use a bot or two though... seems like we've got 3 strikes to do it until we get bummed. If your time is that limted either buy PLEX, fly cheaper ships, or quit eve.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.06 00:32:00 - [2195] Originally by: Trinneth Originally by: CCP Sreegs You are not the only person who finds the three strikes rule to be lenient. As I said in my presentation if it doesn't curb things we'll up the stakes. Could you explain to us how the three strikes rule was arrived at? In order for 3 strikes to be the policy, someone at CCP must have argued for it in the face of a widespread belief that CCP was tolerant of non-RMT related botting, so what was their reasoning? What purpose does that second warning serve, and what advantages does 3 strikes have over - say - two strikes? The three strikes rule is an easily understandable policy that allows for people to become good citizens. It's not easy or fair or wise to walk into a place, any place, and say "HEY EVERYONE THERES A NEW SHERIFF IN TOWN AND HERES MY LAW". I'm referring to the players of EVE at this point not an internal debate which I really wouldn't get into. I believe the rule may very well turn into two strikes sooner rather than later, but the idea is to make people aware that enforcement is ocurring, and give them an opportunity to be good players of EVE instead of walking in and stomping on everyone's faces. There'll be a time for stomping on faces I just don't think an initial iteration is it. Which isn't to say people who behave in certain ways aren't already feeling the pain or curbing their actions. They are. I'm just not here to impress you guys with a number of bans. My job is to eliminate the problem, which is less flashy but more productive.

Jack Gilligan Black Serpent Technologies R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.04.06 00:55:00 - [2196] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Jack Gilligan Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: CCP Sreegs As for the rest I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to the topic, which I believe to be botting, rather than wrapping a perfectly sensible post around a pile of editorialization. It makes it difficult to pick out the bits that warrant a response. Wow... Just wow. Yeah, the arrogance and hubris is quite mind numbing isn't it? Of course, after tomorrow's massive ninja chop to the balls nerf of 0.0 isk making for the majority of the average honest players, I'm about to the point of endorsing that we ALL start botting. I won't do that of course, the logical move is to quit doing business with a company that has so little regard for the wishes of those of us who merely give them money to eat, pay the mortgage, send the kids to college, etc... I don't really see what the problem is with stating that if you intend to have a dialogue it's a little easier for me to respond to you when you're referring to the subject matter at hand (botting, which I CAN respond to) rather than wrapping a bit about botting around a great deal of rage and opinion that is not on topic. If that comes off as arrogant to you than I certainly apologize. The issues being discussed cannot be separated. They are all part of the SAME problem. I'm sorry if I come across as harsh. I simply don't have a good history with MMO Devs, given that I come from Pre-screwed up Star Wars Galaxies. I tend to view all of you with suspicion. It's not easy for me to trust your motives, it's not personal.
Selinate Amarr Red Water Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.06 01:03:00 - [2197] Originally by: CCP Sreegs I don't really see what the problem is with stating that if you intend to have a dialogue it's a little easier for me to respond to you when you're referring to the subject matter at hand (botting, which I CAN respond to) rather than wrapping a bit about botting around a great deal of rage and opinion that is not on topic. If that comes off as arrogant to you than I certainly apologize. For some reason, I thought ccp devs would be pros at this by now. Bad Sreegs. It's done like this, when responding to crying trolls.... "Your tears, they enthuse me.... bfhfbhfhbfhbhfhbhf"

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.06 01:34:00 - [2198] Originally by: Selinate Originally by: CCP Sreegs I don't really see what the problem is with stating that if you intend to have a dialogue it's a little easier for me to respond to you when you're referring to the subject matter at hand (botting, which I CAN respond to) rather than wrapping a bit about botting around a great deal of rage and opinion that is not on topic. If that comes off as arrogant to you than I certainly apologize. For some reason, I thought ccp devs would be pros at this by now. Bad Sreegs. It's done like this, when responding to crying trolls.... "Your tears, they enthuse me.... bfhfbhfhbfhbhfhbhf" heh, YOUR FACE

dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.06 02:11:00 - [2199] Edited by: dexington on 06/04/2011 02:11:41 Originally by: CCP Sreegs The three strikes rule is an easily understandable policy that allows for people to become good citizens. Do you have any system to determine if the account is used only for botting, i would believe is possible to make qualified guess whether or not the account is used normal/legal play or only botting. Would the 3 strike rule also apply to eg. a newer account with a hulk pilot that not really has done anything but mine/bot?
Selinate Amarr Red Water Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.06 02:44:00 - [2200] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Selinate Originally by: CCP Sreegs I don't really see what the problem is with stating that if you intend to have a dialogue it's a little easier for me to respond to you when you're referring to the subject matter at hand (botting, which I CAN respond to) rather than wrapping a bit about botting around a great deal of rage and opinion that is not on topic. If that comes off as arrogant to you than I certainly apologize. For some reason, I thought ccp devs would be pros at this by now. Bad Sreegs. It's done like this, when responding to crying trolls.... "Your tears, they enthuse me.... bfhfbhfhbfhbhfhbhf" heh, YOUR FACE ...touchT.

Selinate Amarr Red Water Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.06 02:48:00 - [2201] Edited by: Selinate on 06/04/2011 02:51:55 Originally by: dexington Edited by: dexington on 06/04/2011 02:11:41 Originally by: CCP Sreegs The three strikes rule is an easily understandable policy that allows for people to become good citizens. Do you have any system to determine if the account is used only for botting, i would believe is possible to make qualified guess whether or not the account is used normal/legal play or only botting. Would the 3 strike rule also apply to eg. a newer account with a hulk pilot that not really has done anything but mine/bot? What logic is there in players asking how CCP determines whether an account is botting or not? Unless... out with it. Just ask it. "How can I evade your bot-hunting practices, CCP?" Originally by: Jack Gilligan I simply don't have a good history with MMO Devs Shocking. Ever been robbed by a 5'4" Caucasian man? If you did, would you view all Caucasian men of 5'4" as suspicious? Profiling is ethically wrong.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.04.06 02:51:00 - [2202] Originally by: Selinate Originally by: dexington Edited by: dexington on 06/04/2011 02:11:41 Originally by: CCP Sreegs The three strikes rule is an easily understandable policy that allows for people to become good citizens. Do you have any system to determine if the account is used only for botting, i would believe is possible to make qualified guess whether or not the account is used normal/legal play or only botting. Would the 3 strike rule also apply to eg. a newer account with a hulk pilot that not really has done anything but mine/bot? What logic is there in players asking how CCP determines whether an account is botting or not? Unless... out with it. Just ask it. "How can I evade your bot-hunting practices, CCP?" I think he's trying to determine whether CCP could determine an account is solely used as a bot and forego the 3 strikes. At least that's what I got from his comment. However, why would CCP do such a thing on a paying account? CCP has every incentive to get the account owner the opportunity to turn the bot account into a legitimate account and continue to pay for the service. So, I would surmise that CCP is never going to out-right perma-ban such an account. It just doesn't make any business sense.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.04.06 02:58:00 - [2203] Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 06/04/2011 03:03:58 Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 06/04/2011 02:58:33 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Trinneth Originally by: CCP Sreegs You are not the only person who finds the three strikes rule to be lenient. As I said in my presentation if it doesn't curb things we'll up the stakes. Could you explain to us how the three strikes rule was arrived at? In order for 3 strikes to be the policy, someone at CCP must have argued for it in the face of a widespread belief that CCP was tolerant of non-RMT related botting, so what was their reasoning? What purpose does that second warning serve, and what advantages does 3 strikes have over - say - two strikes? The three strikes rule is an easily understandable policy that allows for people to become good citizens. I propose a 17 strikes rule. After all, some might be more stubbourn than others. It might take them longer than others to be freed of their cheating ways. Maybe they are a bit fatter than other people, and need to buy more food than with their ratting ISK sales. And this'd please the accountants. The so-called 'zealots', not so much. Originally by: Mr Kidd Originally by: Selinate Originally by: dexington Edited by: dexington on 06/04/2011 02:11:41 Originally by: CCP Sreegs The three strikes rule is an easily understandable policy that allows for people to become good citizens. Do you have any system to determine if the account is used only for botting, i would believe is possible to make qualified guess whether or not the account is used normal/legal play or only botting. Would the 3 strike rule also apply to eg. a newer account with a hulk pilot that not really has done anything but mine/bot? What logic is there in players asking how CCP determines whether an account is botting or not? Unless... out with it. Just ask it. "How can I evade your bot-hunting practices, CCP?" I think he's trying to determine whether CCP could determine an account is solely used as a bot and forego the 3 strikes. I think we can safely say that the 23/7 for days, if not weeks, on end activities are pure bots. Even if the player, and that term is obviously used loosely in this thread, does actually play for 15 of those 23 hours a day, he needs a ban, since he obviously cheated. And he needs some sunlight in his pathetic life. o_O
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.06 05:44:00 - [2204] Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 06/04/2011 05:45:33 Originally by: CCP Sreegs I think the most heinous example off the top of my head would be that when a character DOES legally change hands, forcing some new guy to wear a scarlet letter for someone else's actions is a bit of a bummer. ...legally buying a botting account Why do I have the odd feeling that the botters, the real hard core ones, dont sell off the banned characters as much as keep going till they get permmaed. Originally by: CCP Sreegs We are aware of character transfers being a loophole and will be closing it. How is still a matter of internal discussion. :edit: It's really not much of a loophole but is not where it should be from my perspective this is why you fail. seriously.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.04.06 05:51:00 - [2205] Originally by: Selinate Shocking. Ever been robbed by a 5'4" Caucasian man? If you did, would you view all Caucasian men of 5'4" as suspicious? Profiling is ethically wrong. Yeah, SIX YEARS of inactivity doesnt have anything to do with this at all
GregorClegane	Posted - 2011.04.06 06:27:00 - [2206] @CCP Sreegs: Just two matters. 1. Could you confirm that you are aware of what a widespread bot maker said? It may help your team. Quote: Here's what I see happening, initially CCP will detect bots by behavior. It's probably how they caught the <removed>, <removed> bot users. Since neither of those two actually change anything within EVE. After most of them are caught, I see CCP going for the 'injectors'. You have two flavors, you have the Python injectors (<removed>) and you have the 'process' injectors (<removed> and <removed>). Both are easy to stop but I see the python injectors easier to stop then <removed>/ <removed>. For the Python Injectors you could easily just remove the PyRun_ functions completely, with no way of them to actually inject Python, it'll end pretty damn fast for them. To disable <removed>/ <removed>in the same way would mean that they'd have to remove the other python functions as well, and those are most likely used by their interal C/C++ functions as well. So that's not really possible. A 'quick' solution would be to mask those functions by using an obfuscator, but that wouldn't stop <removed>(it would stop me, because I'd be too bored to keep searching for the required functions). Once you're done with the obfuscation path, you'd add checks to the Python functions to detect unauthorized usage. This step would have to be done after the obfuscation, otherwise it would be too easy to crack. Possible ways of detecting unauthorized usage would be to send the call-stack to the server (for both the c/c++ functions as for the python functions!), this was done by the Blizzard-Warden and while not impossible, very hard to circumvent. The way to circumvent this would be by modifying the code, however if you then have a separate thread/function/whatever to check for code modifications then it suddenly becomes a factor 10 harder. Once your done with that, here's another simple step. Obfuscate your Python code already, but not in the traditional way. Randomize your byte code! Yes, you have the source for both the Python compiles as you do for the Python runtime. Every patch you change this bytecode and RE'ing the python code has become near impossible. After that you've pretty much stopped <removed> and <removed>or made their life very hard. And CCP, at least give me some credit if you decide to implement some of my idea's ;) Even if it's just by a private email which you can easily deny exists. (and yes I know your most likely reading this!) 2. 3 Strikes Policy: I guess you have already indirectly answered this but... Are you stating that people who have been botting for months/years taking an unfair advantage over legit pilots will just get two warnings before their accounts are permanently banned? So... all the 'smart' botters will just get away withouth any real punishment if they stop botting after the 1st/2nd strike? From my point of view Zero Tolerance is the way to go, the 3 strikes policy is telling me that CCP doesn't want to risk their income punishing cheaters since they are aware about how widespread cheating behaviour it is nowadays. I know corpmates that use bots and haven't even get the 1st warning yet.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.06 06:42:00 - [2207] Then theres the bot player gets 2 strikes, you sell the character, make a new one woo continue... unless the bot flag is against the account, then yeah, I see how the loophole is small
Florestan Bronstein Element 115. Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.04.06 07:13:00 - [2208] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 06/04/2011 07:17:01 Originally by: GregorClegane 1. Could you confirm that you are aware of what a widespread bot maker said? It may help your team. said bot maker may know his way around the "process injection"-type of bots but most of the stuff he suggests to combat python injection is either already done & circumvented (python call stacks being sent to CCP), has been done in the past and was not successful (bytecode randomization) and/or is already theorized about on publicdemands (and thus not a new idea). Instead of asking CCP for a job with ideas that are not new at all, he should go back to hacking Rift edit: I also think he may underestimate how much of the EVE client relies on Python and how much is c++.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:45:00 - [2209] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 06/04/2011 05:48:58 Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 06/04/2011 05:45:33 Originally by: CCP Sreegs I think the most heinous example off the top of my head would be that when a character DOES legally change hands, forcing some new guy to wear a scarlet letter for someone else's actions is a bit of a bummer. ...legally buying a botting account Why do I have the odd feeling that the botters, the real hard core ones, dont sell off the banned characters as much as keep going till they get permmaed. Originally by: CCP Sreegs We are aware of character transfers being a loophole and will be closing it. How is still a matter of internal discussion. :edit: It's really not much of a loophole but is not where it should be from my perspective this is why you fail. seriously. Originally by: CCP Sreegs I believe the rule may very well turn into two strikes sooner rather than later So youre more lenient on ppl botting and ruining the game than people that hack the client. The second there gets you an immediate permaban more often than not, yet botting is a 2 - 3 strike deal. I'm not going to bother navigating the terrible quote system here so I'll use A, B and C to reply to your comments. A) Accounts cannot change hands only characters can. I'll leave your speculation to yourself. B) If you're going to comment typically you'd provide some input. Why did I "fail"? For not considering an aspect of an account that really isn't worth all that much consideration since it's really not a big deal? I have no idea what you're complaining about here but if you're actually trying to be constructive in any way I'd recommend spending the time to verbalize that you've spent navigating the quote system. C) Yes, I'm at this point more lenient on botters from a policy perspective than people attempting to hack the game or the client. If you don't see the degrees of malfeasance the same way I do then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.06 09:52:00 - [2210] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 06/04/2011 07:17:01 Originally by: GregorClegane 1. Could you confirm that you are aware of what a widespread bot maker said? It may help your team. said bot maker may know his way around the "process injection"-type of bots but most of the stuff he suggests to combat python injection is either already done & circumvented (python call stacks being sent to CCP), has been done in the past and was not successful (bytecode randomization) and/or is already theorized about on publicdemands (and thus not a new idea). Instead of asking CCP for a job with ideas that are not new at all, he should go back to hacking Rift edit: I also think he may underestimate how much of the EVE client relies on Python and how much is c++. To add to this most of the botmakers, to my experience, are abject liars who wish only to keep making money from their product and frequently sell each other out in order to increase their own personal profits. I've seen some of them log chat channels and I've seen others steal from wallets. These aren't nice dudes. They're not ROBIN HOOD HACKERS just out to help the little guy or MAKE INFORMATION FREE MAAAAAAAAAN. They're in essence, malcode authors trying to make a living selling a product. Once you stop paying for that product they really don't care what happens to you, despite the attempts of some to offer "free" levels of their products or posture otherwise. You're a cash machine, not a brosef or a partner.


Brooks Puuntai Minmatar Solar Nexus. -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.04.06 10:12:00 - [2211] Curious and I can understand completly if you are not allowed to answer. Are known botters who fall under the 3 strike rule(tbh 1 warning then permaban would be a better system) is it just a account/email ban or will it be a complete IP ban. Now granted there are ways around a IP ban but a lot won't be able to achieve that. Pretty much a account ban like others have said won't achieve much since people will just start a new account then buy a character and continue botting until they cycle starts over.
Morgenholt Blue Swift Redemption	Posted - 2011.04.06 10:16:00 - [2212] Originally by: Brooks Puuntai Curious and I can understand completly if you are not allowed to answer. Are known botters who fall under the 3 strike rule(tbh 1 warning then permaban would be a better system) is it just a account/email ban or will it be a complete IP ban. Now granted there are ways around a IP ban but a lot won't be able to achieve that. Pretty much a account ban like others have said won't achieve much since people will just start a new account then buy a character and continue botting until they cycle starts over. The majority of peoples IP's are dynamic so banning the IP would have no effect other than potentially banning a different innocent player.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2011.04.06 10:25:00 - [2213] Hi Sreegs, you say you don't want to mark a previously botting character that has been legally bought, however why should a botter be able to legally sell his characters in the first place? I mean one very simple fix would be to add an overlay on the character portrait where it sais "Botter" or similar. The character would become unsellable. Also it would be a nice feedbackloop for people that do petition botters to see such a piece of text show up on the suspected botters.
Capt Zulu	Posted - 2011.04.06 10:29:00 - [2214] yes but botting can be stopped easily ccp no this. all they have to do is think how long does the average person spend ratting mining then add a little extra time on top and all the other guys that are constantly botting will be caught because of the ISK intack and time spent ingame . the average person has not got time to play 24/7 like most of these bots are running there are prob many ways to detect a bot but ccp are not interested in making eve - online a better game they want to invest there time in to dust
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.06 10:33:00 - [2215] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Hi Sreegs, you say you don't want to mark a previously botting character that has been legally bought, however why should a botter be able to legally sell his characters in the first place? I mean one very simple fix would be to add an overlay on the character portrait where it sais "Botter" or similar. The character would become unsellable. Also it would be a nice feedbackloop for people that do petition botters to see such a piece of text show up on the suspected botters. I think thats a bit extreme. If someone gets hit by the banstick once and learns their lesson then why keep punishing them? Smacks a bit of sackcloth and ashes TBH A simple solution would be "if you sell the character then you must declare that it has been previously banned". There could be a read-only message in the Notifications section of the mail client on the character which details the ban. That way the buyer (and potentially any CEO) could verify that you haven't been banned in the past.
The Old Chap	Posted - 2011.04.06 11:15:00 - [2216] Originally by: Brooks Puuntai Curious and I can understand completly if you are not allowed to answer. Are known botters who fall under the 3 strike rule(tbh 1 warning then permaban would be a better system) is it just a account/email ban or will it be a complete IP ban. Now granted there are ways around a IP ban but a lot won't be able to achieve that. Pretty much a account ban like others have said won't achieve much since people will just start a new account then buy a character and continue botting until they cycle starts over. Presumably, you could use a bot account to buy plex to pay for more accounts that you skill-up in case your bot account gets banned. So you just flip to the next account when necessary.
Florestan Bronstein Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.04.06 11:24:00 - [2217] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 06/04/2011 11:25:51 Originally by: CCP Sreegs To add to this most of the botmakers, to my experience, are abject liars who wish only to keep making money from their product and frequently sell each other out in order to increase their own personal profits. I've seen some of them log chat channels and I've seen others steal from wallets. These aren't nice dudes. They're not ROBIN HOOD HACKERS just out to help the little guy or MAKE INFORMATION FREE MAAAAAAAAAN. They're in essence, malcode authors trying to make a living selling a product. Once you stop paying for that product they really don't care what happens to you, despite the attempts of some to offer "free" levels of their products or posture otherwise. You're a cash machine, not a brosef or a partner. very bad example as the hacker GregorClegane referred to appears to be pretty much the opposite to what you describe. read his forums and you'll see he is getting flamed by his own users for providing his bot (along with the code containing the bot logic) free of charge - the perception being that a "for pay" bot is safer as its user base is more limited and it can stay low-profile for far longer than a fairly potent bot that is provided free of charge. read his blog and you will find a very valuable resource on reverse-engineering techniques in general - my impression is that his motives are neither commercial nor some strange conception of freedom (and tbh looking at the availability of decompiled EVE client code CCP is already pretty good at making information free) but just the joy of working your way through intellectual challenges. My only serious endeavor in that direction so far has been to modify part of an obfuscated java program and, man, the thrill when you have worked your way through the obfuscation, did finally "get" the program logic, have realized that all you need is change just a few bytecodes in the right places in your hex editor and see your modifications working for the first time... that's just amazing. It's the pvp of programming so to speak, not really comparable to just writing your own stuff. nice to see we're back to scare-mongering, though
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.06 11:26:00 - [2218] Edited by: dexington on 06/04/2011 11:27:02 Originally by: Florestan Bronstein edit: I also think he may underestimate how much of the EVE client relies on Python and how much is c++. It don't really matter how much or little the client relies on python, it is always going to be easier use python then c++. From the examples i have seen it looks like eve deploys python with the parser, so all you need to do is find a way to inject code, which is not hard, and you are ready to go. In PHP, i guess the same is true for python, it's in no way impossible to remove the parser and have the scripting engine only run binary code, hardened version often implement some form of signing and/or encryption. Unless CCP is using some bizarre python code, they could at least remove the parser making it harder to inject code and it would also improve on the performance of their own code.
Perramas Caldari Pan Caldarian Ventures	Posted - 2011.04.06 12:31:00 - [2219] CCP another tool you can use to fight botting and to discourage people from using them, flag the accounts you suspend the first time so they can never use a plex on that account again.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.04.06 13:12:00 - [2220] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies I think we can safely say that the 23/7 for days, if not weeks, on end activities are pure bots. Even if the player, and that term is obviously used loosely in this thread, does actually play for 15 of those 23 hours a day, he needs a ban, since he obviously cheated. And he needs some sunlight in his pathetic life. o_O[/quote Perhaps, but CCP is not going to make such a circumstance an automatic permaban. It's just not going to happen. They're not going to automatically turn off a source of revenue without giving the customer a chance to mend his/her ways first.

Reonetii Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.06 13:42:00 - [2221] Originally by: GregorClegane [b]@CCP Sreegs: Just two matters. I know corpmates that use bots and haven't even get the 1st warning yet. This is a problem, players like you I HOPE should, if you are concerned for the direction eve is taking, nominate those said players in your corp in a petition. Otherwise you are in league and approve of such behavior. Greed is the great motivator in eve to bot atm, coupled with laziness. The huge isk/resource requirements to sustain the large fleet actions and deployment/losses of pos/sov infrastructure kind of promote the need to bot to supplement incomes/losses. Because select parts of the community have become greedy in their needs and forgone the work together attitude and mundane activities of eve that used to be the way alliances and such were sustained, through that frustration of making "real" people work together (yes they are more trouble than the drones in RMR) it's easier to leave the income resourcing to bot derived gains, whether or not the leaders of these organizations actually endorse bots in their territories or turn a blind eye to the usage, relishing the afk incomes they provide for their war machines, the end result is hollow victory and unsatisfied players in the long run. If we don't turn it around soon, eve is dead, it becomes so overrun with botting, that real players might as well not bother joining, as they can never match income, or they get so frustrated that there is no social involvement anymore and comradery that once existed. I sort of sense by the generalized opinions I read, that eve is at this crossroad now. I personally don't "play" anymore, the bots are so prolific, why bother? I am merely letting the subs I have prepaid run out at this stage, hoping a long term solution comes to fruitfulness before that day. It's going to take not only the CCP team to police the bots, they need us players to keep our eye on our regular systems and CARFULLY log behavior of suspected bots, be careful, watch, watch some more, keep track of actions of said suspects, write it down, submit a reasonable history/time line of observation eg weeks to months, so CCP have some indication that you have been keeping watch and not just reporting a player because he mined and wouldn't chat or respond on the first pass through a belt. I would go with some flagging system where the player base could enact revenge once a botter was confirmed, rather than a one day ban, give the player a month long red flag, in this time period, also prevent character transfers on said account and characters, giving players a chance to revenge ourselves on the players that ruin the game in the long run, once their month flag is over (by example) then the players are free to rejoin eve socially or dispose of said character if they feel so, if they are caught again, perma ban all linked accounts 2c
djenghis jan Amarr Debiloff	Posted - 2011.04.06 13:45:00 - [2222] Maybe the use of sound could be included to hinder botters. Suppose you are required to type in coordinates that are read through the speakers to warp to a belt. In this scenario a pilot would query traffic control and hear something like "coordinates belt one, alpha-romeo-romeo one-two-three" or some sequence like that and this info would need to be typed into the client. Would this not be hard to do for a bot? dj
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.06 13:51:00 - [2223] Edited by: Furb Killer on 06/04/2011 13:54:04 Welcome to a world where English is not everyones first language. Eve has sound? Some people are deaf, and a larger group just listens to other stuff while playing eve. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_recognition Quote: The majority of peoples IP's are dynamic so banning the IP would have no effect other than potentially banning a different innocent player. Tbh I doubt it, granted it might be different in other countries, but here everyone got semi-static IP addresses (as in: ISP does not guarantee your IP does not change, but they do hand out the same one everytime to your MAC address if you reboot your modem/router, and that pretty much only happens for most people during either internet or power outages). Now I do not think IP banning has any effect, but I do hope that every account from that IP address, both new ones and old ones, get very high on the list of accounts to keep an eye on, and are permabanned when they look funny.
Aessoroz Nohbdy.	Posted - 2011.04.06 13:56:00 - [2224] Edited by: Aessoroz on 06/04/2011 13:56:11 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 05/04/2011 23:20:22 Originally by: Grey Stormshadow There is rather easy way to make life of (mining) bots much harder... I know that people are against captcha but if this was implemented to work with the report bot button, it would efficiently stop the bot and also provide data about characters "after report" behauvior to devs... So... in nutshell the idea is that when some player hits report bot button, reported character gets notification in mail and link to some captcha. The catch is that reported player can not undock or do any market orders before the captcha has been completed. Captcha has been discussed in the past. At this point in time we're not implementing it. That doesn't mean we never would, it just means not at this time. We're going to fight this particular fight using a somewhat standard tried and tested security toolbox in some places and be more creative in others, but at the end of the day we're going to trend the numbers down and the measure of success for ourselves will be a steady downward trend in botting, in botting-related income and in sites offering said bots. Ultimately as an initial salvo we're sending the message that this isn't going to be easy anymore. :edit: Ultimately this increases our focus on RMT as well Main reason why captcha's are dumb and useless these days: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/inside-indias-captcha-solving-economy/1835
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.04.06 14:47:00 - [2225] Originally by: Aessoroz Edited by: Aessoroz on 06/04/2011 13:56:11 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 05/04/2011 23:20:22 Originally by: Grey Stormshadow There is rather easy way to make life of (mining) bots much harder... I know that people are against captcha but if this was implemented to work with the report bot button, it would efficiently stop the bot and also provide data about characters "after report" behauvior to devs... So... in nutshell the idea is that when some player hits report bot button, reported character gets notification in mail and link to some captcha. The catch is that reported player can not undock or do any market orders before the captcha has been completed. Captcha has been discussed in the past. At this point in time we're not implementing it. That doesn't mean we never would, it just means not at this time. We're going to fight this particular fight using a somewhat standard tried and tested security toolbox in some places and be more creative in others, but at the end of the day we're going to trend the numbers down and the measure of success for ourselves will be a steady downward trend in botting, in botting-related income and in sites offering said bots. Ultimately as an initial salvo we're sending the message that this isn't going to be easy anymore. :edit: Ultimately this increases our focus on RMT as well Main reason why captcha's are dumb and useless these days: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/inside-indias-captcha-solving-economy/1835 Yea... everything can be passed with one way or another. The main idea of my suggestion was to provide some method to "lock" reported player to station and prevent market modifications untill player performs some kind of action. In my suggestion player would get "harmless" mail which would not actually do anything if player was fighting or doing something else in space. The mail would require attention only after he docks to station. Captcha could as well be replaced with some other thing what requires player attention. It would not be - by any means - a main method to identify or remove botting. Just additional functionality to report bot button which would also halt the bots for a while and give extra data about target behauviour after report has been made. ...but as Sreegs said - it's not on the menu atm so will leave the idea there. ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)
WarpOutNow	Posted - 2011.04.06 15:09:00 - [2226] Yeah, you people are perfectly right. **** up the game for the legit players, only so botters have it (a little bit) harder. The anti-botting measures you are suggesting sound A BIT more annoying than the botters are... inb4 >get out of here botter I just don't want EVE Online to evolve in CAPTCHA Online or LOLISCANURPC Online
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.04.06 15:26:00 - [2227] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 06/04/2011 15:27:34 There are already automated tools for correctly determining a captcha. Some have varying levels of success. But I'm sure any captcha challenge would give the challenged the opportunity to get a new captcha until they solve it. Since we're talking about botting I don't guess it would be very hard to implement automated captcha answering considering bots already successfully incorporate things like OCR.
Ludacrys	Posted - 2011.04.06 17:23:00 - [2228] Captchas for updating market orders would get rid of a lot of bots
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.06 17:26:00 - [2229] Originally by: Ludacrys Captchas for updating market orders would get rid of a lot of bots once the bots have implemented ways of bypassing the captcha, it's just going to annoy normal users.
Pandadora	Posted - 2011.04.06 20:40:00 - [2230] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Ludacrys Captchas for updating market orders would get rid of a lot of bots once the bots have implemented ways of bypassing the captcha, it's just going to annoy normal users. Which would probably drive regular players to use a capcha bot, to ease that problem. :-)

Rasz Lin Caldari Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated	Posted - 2011.04.06 21:00:00 - [2231] I ignore sites that use Google captchas because its too difficult for me :( :)
Taavi Suikkanen Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2011.04.06 21:13:00 - [2232] Since 2005 (First time I played this game) I have admired CCP's programming. Lot's of us don't realize how genius it is. Yes they have issues time to time but show me game who doesn't. If you go to CCP Games Youtube channel you find there panel video about this. Bot's have pattern like behavior and I have no doubt in time CCP refines their scan algorithms to catch bot's. No matter is it an BOT, Synergy or any other aid what interacts with client as an user. IMO best thing what you can do is post a link every new bot created. Don't worry about the rest. Characters don't get banned, account's do.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.06 21:48:00 - [2233] Originally by: CCP Sreegs B) If you're going to comment typically you'd provide some input. Why did I "fail"? input: char a gets 2 infractions and is sold off and a new character made. Rinse, repeat. Botting continues Rules fail at this point. THAT is why and lol at not seeing botters RUINING OUR GAME as as bad as hackers... that is also why you fail Good to know, however, your stance on it out in the open.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:21:00 - [2234] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod char a gets 2 infractions and is sold off and a new character made. Rinse, repeat. Botting continues Rules fail at this point. And you don't think that is the pattern even if the character can't be sold?, it would be the same even if you would get banned on first offense. "char a gets banned and a new character made. Rinse, repeat. Botting continues"
mkint	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:28:00 - [2235] Edited by: mkint on 06/04/2011 22:34:40 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 06/04/2011 05:48:58 Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 06/04/2011 05:45:33 Originally by: CCP Sreegs I think the most heinous example off the top of my head would be that when a character DOES legally change hands, forcing some new guy to wear a scarlet letter for someone else's actions is a bit of a bummer. ...legally buying a botting account Why do I have the odd feeling that the botters, the real hard core ones, dont sell off the banned characters as much as keep going till they get permmaed. Originally by: CCP Sreegs We are aware of character transfers being a loophole and will be closing it. How is still a matter of internal discussion. :edit: It's really not much of a loophole but is not where it should be from my perspective this is why you fail. seriously. Originally by: CCP Sreegs I believe the rule may very well turn into two strikes sooner rather than later So youre more lenient on ppl botting and ruining the game than people that hack the client. The second there gets you an immediate permaban more often than not, yet botting is a 2 - 3 strike deal. I'm not going to bother navigating the terrible quote system here so I'll use A, B and C to reply to your comments. A) Accounts cannot change hands only characters can. I'll leave your speculation to yourself. Of course only characters can have character transfers. That's a no-brainer. (edit: an account has no value in itself.) The issue is that a character has a very specific isk value, even with no assets and no isk. That isk value is above the value of the required PLEXes and skillbooks. So even if a botter gets his 2 strikes and even if the 3rd strike would have come 20 minutes of gameplay after his 2nd strike it won't matter because he'd already have sold the character completely legally for more than 2 month's worth of botting income. The issue is the botters are first getting paid to bot. Then they are getting paid again to not bot. Then they will just start up another trial account paid for with PLEX and start botting again and get paid to bot and not bot yet again. The blaise attitude about it makes it sound like you're not caring that the botters are in a win-win situation. edit: ok, let's break the 3 strikes system even more... say I'm a high-income botter and I've got 2 strikes. Time to do a character transfer to a brand spankin' new PLEX'd trial account and completely evade all the strikes that go against the old account. Sure it'll cost me some isk in PLEX, but it'd be cheaper than training a new botting toon. It's not as profitable as selling the character outright, but training up a new character can be a hassle.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:43:00 - [2236] Originally by: mkint edit: ok, let's break the 3 strikes system even more... say I'm a high-income botter and I've got 2 strikes. Time to do a character transfer to a brand spankin' new PLEX'd trial account and completely evade all the strikes that go against the old account. Sure it'll cost me some isk in PLEX, but it'd be cheaper than training a new botting toon. It's not as profitable as selling the character outright, but training up a new character can be a hassle. I think transferring a pilot to a new account takes 2 PLEX? And one PLEX for the new account, so thats 3 PLEX, a little over a billion isk at present prices. So to stop this CCP needs to detect the new account botting before 1 billion isk is made. High sec mining, thats like a week. Running santums, not sure, maybe 12 to 24 hours? CCP Sreegs: Think you can catch them fast enough?
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:45:00 - [2237] Originally by: mkint after his 2nd strike it won't matter because he'd already have sold the character completely legally for more than 2 month's worth of botting income. Your assume a value of the bot character that probably is much higher then, what it really is. If CCP catch the botter within the first month or two the character is not going to be worth anything close to 1-2 months of botting.
mkint	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:53:00 - [2238] Originally by: dexington Originally by: mkint after his 2nd strike it won't matter because he'd already have sold the character completely legally for more than 2 month's worth of botting income. Your assume a value of the bot character that probably is much higher then, what it really is. If CCP catch the botter within the first month or two the character is not going to be worth anything close to 1-2 months of botting. But that's the point. There's this whole legal economy built up around illegal botters liquidating their character assets. And Sreegs is acting like "oh, no big deal, because we can ban the accounts that used to have bots on them." Whether the value is high or low, why does it matter? The botter is still in a win-win situation, and Sreegs seems fine with that, rather than turning it into a lose-lose situation.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.06 23:05:00 - [2239] Originally by: mkint The botter is still in a win-win situation, and Sreegs seems fine with that, rather than turning it into a lose-lose situation. He already said that they know about it they are going to close that loophole, he probably knows better then you where it's best to focus man power, and if even a lot of bots are being character traded.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.07 04:32:00 - [2240] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod char a gets 2 infractions and is sold off and a new character made. Rinse, repeat. Botting continues Rules fail at this point. And you don't think that is the pattern even if the character can't be sold?, it would be the same even if you would get banned on first offense. "char a gets banned and a new character made. Rinse, repeat. Botting continues" They DONT ban the account?? Wow they really dont care about botting lol

Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.04.07 04:35:00 - [2241] Originally by: mkint And Sreegs is acting like "oh, no big deal, because we can ban the accounts that used to have bots on them." Seems more to be "Its not that big an issue" attitude to me
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.04.07 11:16:00 - [2242] Just to post here link to related thread so that we have all on one place: Reporting from the front line of the Bot-War In this tread are reactions on, and results of, anti bot war... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.04.07 12:29:00 - [2243] Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 07/04/2011 12:35:30 We DO have one place... here... If the trend continues, your thread will get locked, pointing to this thread to talk about it. like theyve done with every other thread talking about botting since about halfway through this thread's life. Theres a reason this thread has 130,000 replies
Shandir Minmatar Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.07 13:06:00 - [2244] CCP Sreegs - any objection to removing the option to A) PLEX, and B) Character Transfer on a 1st and 2nd warning botting account? Both of these would cripple profitability, while allowing legitimate players to continue playing. -
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.04.07 13:40:00 - [2245] Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 07/04/2011 13:41:07 Originally by: Sullen Skoung Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 07/04/2011 12:35:30 We DO have one place... here... If the trend continues, your thread will get locked, pointing to this thread to talk about it. like theyve done with every other thread talking about botting since about halfway through this thread's life. Theres a reason this thread has 130,000 replies First: I think you miss-understood me... so ill fix my post to "Just to post here link to related thread so that we have all important data here, on one place:" i linked all kind of pages and links here in the past... all talking about botting... and Second: Thats not my thread... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.04.07 14:35:00 - [2246] @ CCP Sreegs: Can you tell us when we can expect Devblog on this subject?
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.09 23:31:00 - [2247] cant let this thread die even with the loltastic demise of the new forums ---------------------------- fail leads to anger anger leads to hate hate leads to the dark side of MMOs
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.04.10 01:04:00 - [2248] screw the forum debate... fix the botting issue >.<
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.04.10 10:03:00 - [2249] Originally by: Sullen Skoung screw the forum debate... fix the botting issue >.< +1
Valator Uel Caldari Mercenaries of Andosia Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.04.10 10:41:00 - [2250] Originally by: Sullen Skoung screw the forum debate... fix the botting issue >.< Sreegs is doing both ------------------ empty sig

Lubomir Penev Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.	Posted - 2011.04.10 11:09:00 - [2251] Edited by: Lubomir Penev on 10/04/2011 11:12:54 Originally by: Shandir CCP Sreegs - any objection to removing the option to A) PLEX, and B) Character Transfer on a 1st and 2nd warning botting account? Both of these would cripple profitability, while allowing legitimate players to continue playing. That would crash PLEX market, and CCP somehow like its PLEX despite them being the biggest botting enabler, because they are not content with our subscription money but want their share of the RMT pie too. That's actually the root of the issue but it won't be addressed any time soon. Forbid playing without a valid CC and much of the casual botting etc is dead, only hardcore criminals are left that rely on credit card fraud and thus not only have CCP on their back but law enforcement. But CCP is far too corrupt to ever do this, lets get real one moment. They tasted the RMT money and they want more, even if this will kill their game medium term...
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.04.10 16:10:00 - [2252] Originally by: Shandir CCP Sreegs - any objection to removing the option to A) PLEX, and B) Character Transfer on a 1st and 2nd warning botting account? Both of these would cripple profitability, while allowing legitimate players to continue playing. I support underlined part... so... account that is sanctioned for botting cant use Character Transfer any more...
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.10 17:30:00 - [2253] Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 10/04/2011 17:32:10 Originally by: Severian Carnifex @ CCP Sreegs: Can you tell us when we can expect Devblog on this subject? Soon(tm) the failboat of the forums comes first Originally by: Aquila Draco Originally by: Shandir CCP Sreegs - any objection to removing the option to A) PLEX, and B) Character Transfer on a 1st and 2nd warning botting account? Both of these would cripple profitability, while allowing legitimate players to continue playing. I support underlined part... so... account that is sanctioned for botting cant use Character Transfer any more... as I understand it from what Sreeg already said, they flag the account for botting, hows selling the char matter? unless theyre PLEXxing a new account and selling the botting char to that one... ah I get it ---------------------------- fail leads to anger anger leads to hate hate leads to the dark side of MMOs
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.10 19:43:00 - [2254] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Edited by: Lubomir Penev on 10/04/2011 11:12:54 Originally by: Shandir CCP Sreegs - any objection to removing the option to A) PLEX, and B) Character Transfer on a 1st and 2nd warning botting account? Both of these would cripple profitability, while allowing legitimate players to continue playing. That would crash PLEX market, and CCP somehow like its PLEX despite them being the biggest botting enabler, because they are not content with our subscription money but want their share of the RMT pie too. That's actually the root of the issue but it won't be addressed any time soon. Forbid playing without a valid CC and much of the casual botting etc is dead, only hardcore criminals are left that rely on credit card fraud and thus not only have CCP on their back but law enforcement. But CCP is far too corrupt to ever do this, lets get real one moment. They tasted the RMT money and they want more, even if this will kill their game medium term... +1 like
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.04.11 15:20:00 - [2255] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 10/04/2011 17:32:10 Originally by: Severian Carnifex @ CCP Sreegs: Can you tell us when we can expect Devblog on this subject? Soon(tm) the failboat of the forums comes first Originally by: Aquila Draco Originally by: Shandir CCP Sreegs - any objection to removing the option to A) PLEX, and B) Character Transfer on a 1st and 2nd warning botting account? Both of these would cripple profitability, while allowing legitimate players to continue playing. I support underlined part... so... account that is sanctioned for botting cant use Character Transfer any more... as I understand it from what Sreeg already said, they flag the account for botting, hows selling the char matter? unless theyre PLEXxing a new account and selling the botting char to that one... ah I get it Not only becouse they are selling botting chars to other account that is in hands of the same person... thats problem too but it can be tracked and controlled... but becouse they sell that char... get isk... and then they buy new char on new account... that cant be tracked... or... they dont buy new char... they pay with that isk plexes for fiew new chars that in short time become full skilled botting chars... and that cant be tracked too... so... with removing character transfer option form all accs that ever bot... that would remove them option to continue doing so with that char or char that is bought with that char... sorry for bad spelling... writing in hurry...
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.11 17:31:00 - [2256] Originally by: Aquila Draco Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 10/04/2011 17:32:10 Originally by: Severian Carnifex @ CCP Sreegs: Can you tell us when we can expect Devblog on this subject? Soon(tm) the failboat of the forums comes first Originally by: Aquila Draco Originally by: Shandir CCP Sreegs - any objection to removing the option to A) PLEX, and B) Character Transfer on a 1st and 2nd warning botting account? Both of these would cripple profitability, while allowing legitimate players to continue playing. I support underlined part... so... account that is sanctioned for botting cant use Character Transfer any more... as I understand it from what Sreeg already said, they flag the account for botting, hows selling the char matter? unless theyre PLEXxing a new account and selling the botting char to that one... ah I get it Not only becouse they are selling botting chars to other account that is in hands of the same person... thats problem too but it can be tracked and controlled... but becouse they sell that char... get isk... and then they buy new char on new account... that cant be tracked... or... they dont buy new char... they pay with that isk plexes for fiew new chars that in short time become full skilled botting chars... and that cant be tracked too... so... with removing character transfer option form all accs that ever bot... that would remove them option to continue doing so with that char or char that is bought with that char... sorry for bad spelling... writing in hurry... Yeah that was more sarcasm than anything, hoping someone else would step up and tell sreegs that theres more than a little to worry about issue here
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.11 17:54:00 - [2257] Originally by: Lubomir Penev That would crash PLEX market, and CCP somehow like its PLEX despite them being the biggest botting enabler, because they are not content with our subscription money but want their share of the RMT pie too. ... But CCP is far too corrupt to ever do this, lets get real one moment. They tasted the RMT money and they want more, even if this will kill their game medium term... *facepalm* Seriously? PLEX is a VERY effective way of combating the RMT'rs from one angle (it's a multifront battle). ~Gnosis~
rock crawlermne	Posted - 2011.04.11 18:07:00 - [2258] Edited by: rock crawlermne on 11/04/2011 18:07:13 Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Lubomir Penev That would crash PLEX market, and CCP somehow like its PLEX despite them being the biggest botting enabler, because they are not content with our subscription money but want their share of the RMT pie too. ... But CCP is far too corrupt to ever do this, lets get real one moment. They tasted the RMT money and they want more, even if this will kill their game medium term... *facepalm* Seriously? PLEX is a VERY effective way of combating the RMT'rs from one angle (it's a multifront battle). I'll join J Kunjeh in that facepalm How is removing rights from known bot offenders a bad thing? Seriously? If I cheat in RL, lets say I steal money and I get caught, I go to prison...my rights are removed. If I'm convicted of a fellon in America, I'm no longer allowed to own firearms and vote in most places...my rights are removed. Read this next part slow and dramattic: BOTTERS ARE ChEATING REMOVE THEIR RIGHTS!!!
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.04.11 18:45:00 - [2259] Edited by: Aquila Draco on 11/04/2011 18:47:37 Originally by: Shandir CCP Sreegs - any objection to removing the option to A) PLEX, and B) Character Transfer on a 1st and 2nd warning botting account? Both of these would cripple profitability, while allowing legitimate players to continue playing. Originally by: rock crawlermne Edited by: rock crawlermne on 11/04/2011 18:07:13 Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Lubomir Penev That would crash PLEX market, and CCP somehow like its PLEX despite them being the biggest botting enabler, because they are not content with our subscription money but want their share of the RMT pie too. ... But CCP is far too corrupt to ever do this, lets get real one moment. They tasted the RMT money and they want more, even if this will kill their game medium term... *facepalm* Seriously? PLEX is a VERY effective way of combating the RMT'rs from one angle (it's a multifront battle). I'll join J Kunjeh in that facepalm How is removing rights from known bot offenders a bad thing? Seriously? If I cheat in RL, lets say I steal money and I get caught, I go to prison...my rights are removed. If I'm convicted of a fellon in America, I'm no longer allowed to own firearms and vote in most places...my rights are removed. Read this next part slow and dramattic: BOTTERS ARE ChEATING REMOVE THEIR RIGHTS!!! OH... i didnt see that part... remove PLEX ONLY for EULA offenders... (i thought remove plex for all)... if thats for botters... YES PLEASE... becouse law offenders have less rights... and thats MUST... and EULA is law here... but Character Transfer rights MUST be taken away from there... thats NO ONE here...
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.04.11 18:48:00 - [2260] Edited by: Aquila Draco on 11/04/2011 18:49:18 Originally by: Shandir CCP Sreegs - any objection to removing the option to A) PLEX, and B) Character Transfer on a 1st and 2nd warning botting account? Both of these would cripple profitability, while allowing legitimate players to continue playing. Originally by: rock crawlermne Edited by: rock crawlermne on 11/04/2011 18:07:13 Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Lubomir Penev That would crash PLEX market, and CCP somehow like its PLEX despite them being the biggest botting enabler, because they are not content with our subscription money but want their share of the RMT pie too. ... But CCP is far too corrupt to ever do this, lets get real one moment. They tasted the RMT money and they want more, even if this will kill their game medium term... *facepalm* Seriously? PLEX is a VERY effective way of combating the RMT'rs from one angle (it's a multifront battle). I'll join J Kunjeh in that facepalm How is removing rights from known bot offenders a bad thing? Seriously? If I cheat in RL, lets say I steal money and I get caught, I go to prison...my rights are removed. If I'm convicted of a fellon in America, I'm no longer allowed to own firearms and vote in most places...my rights are removed. Read this next part slow and dramattic: BOTTERS ARE ChEATING REMOVE THEIR RIGHTS!!! OH... i didnt see that part... remove PLEX ONLY for EULA offenders... (i thought remove plex for all)... if thats for botters... YES PLEASE... becouse law offenders have less rights... and thats MUST... and EULA is law here... but Character Transfer rights MUST be taken away from them... thats NUMBER ONE here..

Demoness Lolth	Posted - 2011.04.11 19:11:00 - [2261] Originally by: Aquila Draco Edited by: Aquila Draco on 11/04/2011 18:49:18 Originally by: Shandir CCP Sreegs - any objection to removing the option to A) PLEX, and B) Character Transfer on a 1st and 2nd warning botting account? Both of these would cripple profitability, while allowing legitimate players to continue playing. Originally by: rock crawlermne Edited by: rock crawlermne on 11/04/2011 18:07:13 Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Lubomir Penev That would crash PLEX market, and CCP somehow like its PLEX despite them being the biggest botting enabler, because they are not content with our subscription money but want their share of the RMT pie too. ... But CCP is far too corrupt to ever do this, lets get real one moment. They tasted the RMT money and they want more, even if this will kill their game medium term... *facepalm* Seriously? PLEX is a VERY effective way of combating the RMT'rs from one angle (it's a multifront battle). I'll join J Kunjeh in that facepalm How is removing rights from known bot offenders a bad thing? Seriously? If I cheat in RL, lets say I steal money and I get caught, I go to prison...my rights are removed. If I'm convicted of a fellon in America, I'm no longer allowed to own firearms and vote in most places...my rights are removed. Read this next part slow and dramattic: BOTTERS ARE ChEATING REMOVE THEIR RIGHTS!!! OH... i didnt see that part... remove PLEX ONLY for EULA offenders... (i thought remove plex for all)... if thats for botters... YES PLEASE... becouse law offenders have less rights... and thats MUST... and EULA is law here... but Character Transfer rights MUST be taken away from them... thats NUMBER ONE here.. LOL LOL LOL AND MORE LOL I have a few point for you which you may need to read to understand and take 5 mins out to reflect on before you bashg your keyboard with your emo raging : Quote: BOTTERS ARE ChEATING REMOVE THEIR RIGHTS!!! So here goes : 1) THIS IS A **ING GAME 2) THIS IS A ING GAME 3) THIS IS A ING GAME 4) THIS IS A ING GAME 5) THIS IS A ING GAME 6) THIS IS A ING GAME 7) THIS IS A ING GAME 8) THIS IS A ING GAME 9) THIS IS A ING GAME 10) THIS IS A ING GAME This is a ing game so stop crying about it. CCP wont change the way they handle this... trust me they wont. You keep paying your subscription and more and more come to the game and play regardless of the botters. I myself have killed many botters and it makes for fun :) Again again and again 1) THIS IS A ING GAME 2) THIS IS A ING GAME 3) THIS IS A ING GAME 4) THIS IS A ING GAME 5) THIS IS A ING GAME 6) THIS IS A ING GAME 7) THIS IS A ING GAME 8) THIS IS A ING GAME 9) THIS IS A ING GAME 10) THIS IS A **ING GAME Nuff said !
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.04.11 19:18:00 - [2262] I would say there is a pretty clear connection between the new EVE forums (as well as others) having a security breach, and the current botter purge. We haven't seen this sort of concentrated attempt to bring down EVE related forums since Unholy Rage. Apparently, they are doing something right. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.04.11 19:26:00 - [2263] Originally by: Demoness Lolth ironic QQ and rant about QQing and ranting Again, shouldnt you have black skin and white hair? ---------------------------------------- Whats the forum TOS violation for saying an alliance's name?
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.04.12 02:09:00 - [2264] Originally by: Ranger 1 I would say there is a pretty clear connection between the new EVE forums (as well as others) having a security breach, and the current botter purge. We haven't seen this sort of concentrated attempt to bring down EVE related forums since Unholy Rage. Apparently, they are doing something right. Not sure if I am just dense (in before comment, I can be), but could you please expound upon this post. I have no clear idea what you are talking about. For an allegedly "clear connection", I am not making the leap with you, bud.
Genetically Different	Posted - 2011.04.12 13:22:00 - [2265] CCP wont do any thing REAL about RMTs and Marcos for the same reason that Blizard never does anything about them in WOW. THEY BRING DOLLARS INTO THEIR ACCOUNT. the whole EVE ecconomy is based on it now. Its to late. another MMO buggered. I guess Ill start looking for a new one one that actually does some thing about it.. Wish me luck.
Genetically Different	Posted - 2011.04.12 13:30:00 - [2266] How about some reall punishment for botters..... I have read a little bit of this post.. seems "IF" a RMT is caught he can transfer a toon off a banned account onto a new account ??? How about CCP DELETES THE ACCOUNT ?? ALL THE TOONS AND ALL THE ISK ??? Im talking for the bigguns. Now thats punishment. hit them in the pocket. How about any account registered to that person ??? Get serious, If you can prove they are a RMT the do something real.. not a little baby slap.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.04.12 13:43:00 - [2267] Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 12/04/2011 13:43:20 nvm ---------------------------------------- Looking for a good system, or area, to AFK Cloak. PM me with infos, or if you want a partner to be AFK with.
Lubomir Penev Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.	Posted - 2011.04.12 13:52:00 - [2268] Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Lubomir Penev That would crash PLEX market, and CCP somehow like its PLEX despite them being the biggest botting enabler, because they are not content with our subscription money but want their share of the RMT pie too. ... But CCP is far too corrupt to ever do this, lets get real one moment. They tasted the RMT money and they want more, even if this will kill their game medium term... *facepalm* Seriously? PLEX is a VERY effective way of combating the RMT'rs from one angle (it's a multifront battle). PLEX is official RMT, so just competition for the non CCP RMTers. It's also a huge botting enabler as you can nowadays create and play on an account completely anonymously through proxies, paying with PLEX, never having let CCP tie an account to anything resembling a RL identity. If you add the hurdle of having a valid credit card to each account you then tie accounts more to a RL identity and when you catch one botter it's easier to follow the tracks and ban every single account with a connection. PLEX was sold to us as a mean to fight RMT (it obviously failed) but it's really CCP attempt to get its share of the huge RMT pie, I can't see it any other way.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.04.12 13:53:00 - [2269] Originally by: Genetically Different CCP wont do any thing REAL about RMTs and Marcos for the same reason that Blizard never does anything about them in WOW. THEY BRING DOLLARS INTO THEIR ACCOUNT. the whole EVE ecconomy is based on it now. Its to late. another MMO buggered. I guess Ill start looking for a new one one that actually does some thing about it.. Wish me luck. Warhammer online did ...oh ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.12 14:01:00 - [2270] Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Lubomir Penev That would crash PLEX market, and CCP somehow like its PLEX despite them being the biggest botting enabler, because they are not content with our subscription money but want their share of the RMT pie too. ... But CCP is far too corrupt to ever do this, lets get real one moment. They tasted the RMT money and they want more, even if this will kill their game medium term... *facepalm* Seriously? PLEX is a VERY effective way of combating the RMT'rs from one angle (it's a multifront battle). And it is a very effective way of promoting botting. Why do people continue to confuse RMT and botting. Personally I dont really care about RMT anyway, what is the big deal about it? The only issue I got with RMT is that they got their ISK vs less than legit means. Yes and of course it is not nice you get an advantage by spending lots of RL money, but well, welcome to the character bazaar and plexes. Imo botting is a way bigger issue then RMT'ing. Not only because RMT'ers use botting to get their ISK, but the simple issue is that certain players/groups have pretty much unlimitted funds due to botting, and for me it doesnt matter if that is directly botting or someone else botted and they payed them RL money to get the ISK, the end result is the same, the beginning is the same, only there is another step in between.

Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.04.12 15:00:00 - [2271] Originally by: Furb Killer Why do people continue to confuse RMT and botting. Possibly because RMT is a subset of the (hardcore) botters. As stated, RMT affects us all the same (via reducing CCP's income,if you want to argue that). Botting affects the people that don't bot. ---------------------------------------- Looking for a good system, or area, to AFK Cloak. PM me with infos, or if you want a partner to be AFK with.
Buster Gonads	Posted - 2011.04.12 15:57:00 - [2272] Reported a mining bot Sunday. Courteous reply from GM and a few hours later the bot is nowhere to be seen. In fact haven't seen the character log-in since. I wonder if it was hit with the ban stick? If so, that would be a very quick response indeed :p.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.04.12 16:05:00 - [2273] Originally by: Buster Gonads Reported a mining bot Sunday. Courteous reply from GM and a few hours later the bot is nowhere to be seen. In fact haven't seen the character log-in since. I wonder if it was hit with the ban stick? If so, that would be a very quick response indeed :p. Count to 3 (days), and see if it returns. ---------------------------------------- Looking for a good system, or area, to AFK Cloak. PM me with infos, or if you want a partner to be AFK with.
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.04.12 20:23:00 - [2274] Originally by: Genetically Different How about some reall punishment for botters..... I have read a little bit of this post.. seems "IF" a RMT is caught he can transfer a toon off a banned account onto a new account ??? How about CCP DELETES THE ACCOUNT ?? ALL THE TOONS AND ALL THE ISK ??? Im talking for the bigguns. Now thats punishment. hit them in the pocket. How about any account registered to that person ??? Get serious, If you can prove they are a RMT the do something real.. not a little baby slap. +99999999999999
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.04.13 10:55:00 - [2275] @ All: ppl, do you see any results of this anti bot war???
Iarga	Posted - 2011.04.13 12:06:00 - [2276] Originally by: Severian Carnifex @ All: ppl, do you see any results of this anti bot war??? i do as miner i see a loooot less bots flying into the belt and warping out when full.. thats ore i also mine ice at times(boring but good when doing some reading/yotube/movie.) i se a mass change, there used to be at least 30 people in the icebelt now only 4-5 huge change. sure as i said before botting most likely never gonna be solved the problem was that for eve the software was easy to find..easy to run...and in some cases..free... but now CCP stepping in the majority of the botter wont risk it any more...and it shows :) lets keep it that way CCP :P
Guitonkagya Minmatar The Ouroboros Partnership	Posted - 2011.04.13 12:30:00 - [2277] Edited by: Guitonkagya on 13/04/2011 12:31:11 Originally by: Severian Carnifex @ All: ppl, do you see any results of this anti bot war??? Not in my system.....yet, though I have reported 7 bots in my system alone via the petition and e-mailing [email protected] but days later they are still here. Lets just hope that they are inundated with Bot reports and will get round to every single one in time. I would like to see more communication from CCP.
Gartanus Caldari Nbiri Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.13 12:46:00 - [2278] Edited by: Gartanus on 13/04/2011 12:47:31 This space reserved for something witty.....
Gartanus Caldari Nbiri Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.13 12:51:00 - [2279] Originally by: Iarga Originally by: Severian Carnifex @ All: i do as miner i see a loooot less bots flying into the belt and warping out when full.. thats ore Just wanted to clarify somthing here. Just cause someone warps out when full does not automatically make them a bot. I warp out when I am full just cause I do not trust mining into a can just to have some one flip it on me. Plus I mine alone a lot of the time so that is another reason I warp out and unload then come back for another session. Just saying that not all of us are bots that are warping out full. This space reserved for something witty.....
Lukas Rox Monastery of Eternal Life	Posted - 2011.04.13 13:39:00 - [2280] Originally by: Iarga Originally by: Severian Carnifex @ All: ppl, do you see any results of this anti bot war??? i do as miner i see a loooot less bots flying into the belt and warping out when full.. thats ore i also mine ice at times(boring but good when doing some reading/yotube/movie.) i se a mass change, there used to be at least 30 people in the icebelt now only 4-5 huge change. sure as i said before botting most likely never gonna be solved the problem was that for eve the software was easy to find..easy to run...and in some cases..free... but now CCP stepping in the majority of the botter wont risk it any more...and it shows :) lets keep it that way CCP :P No mate, that's not CCPs doing. That's Hulkageddon's ;-) --- Faction Ships \| Sansha NPC

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.13 16:36:00 - [2281] I think I'm seeing a downturn in ratting bots over the last few days but I'm not sure. The change could be due to the sov upgrades alterations (sanctums/etc). However it seems to be affecting npc null as well, so I really don't know. Also there's a couple of minor wars on so maybe people are actually fighting. Long shot I know but meh If I were to speculate I think that you'd find people that use one sort of bot (eg mining) are quite happy to use any other sort of bot too. For example if you want bounties you're hardly likely to bot in the drone regions, but an alt in a npc region could provide the personal isk while the other alt grinds for alliance/rent. One gets hit with the banstick then so does the other. Gut feeling is that the drops in sov space are due to the upgrades changes; in npc space they're due to war "oop North" Mining bots were always going to be the "low-hanging fruit" (ie - easy to ban/obstruct) from a malware/IDS point of view. By that I mean - easy to do, little/no adverse effects on customer service resources/provable to civil court standards. I suspect that coming up with a similar "Ratbot" detector is proving somewhat intractable. It IS going to require human interaction/intervention on a fairly frequent basis and I rather suspect the recent truesec interactions are intended to give CCP more time to work out a more proactive position. Yeah I know that sounds like management BS and it is, but there comes a point that most companies realise that they're losing the fight. I suspect CCP have (nearly) reached this point and what you're seeing now is a little transition from "No idea who can deal with that at 2am in Iceland... No I've no idea who you'd email...Raise a petition" to "OK we have a plan for this". Long long long way to go given the Eve playerbase and the (almost normal now?) metagaming aspects of Eve. I think they've made a start. PS - The new forums nonsense just says to me "don't ever do this in-house again". Stop re-inventing the wheel, plenty of companies could have had new forums designed, secured and probably with more bells and whistles than your guys could come up with in another 35 man-years Long long way to go there.....
coolzero Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.13 16:59:00 - [2282] Edited by: coolzero on 13/04/2011 17:00:42 i see a lot less of bots for sure :D Jack of all trades, master of none...
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.04.13 17:58:00 - [2283] Originally by: Slate Shoa Edited by: Slate Shoa on 02/04/2011 17:26:37 Originally by: CCP Sreegs, post #1907 Originally by: Slate Shoa Questions: SNIP (question was answered) 2) What is CCP going to do to continually prove to the playerbase that bans for botting are: a) occurring at a significant rate (ex: not one botter per day)? b) severe enough to be a significant deterrence (ex: not one day bans)? My take on the subject: Any feature to report bots is meaningless unless CCP can prove that they are continuously acting upon player reports of bots. Playerbase confidence in CCP's willingness to act on player reports must be restored. The bans must also be significant in penalty and rate of occurrence. The presentation addresses this specifically. and Originally by: Slate Shoa, post #1987 Quote: EVE Fanfest 2011 Security Presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4gZm-85JOs From the presentation, it looks like CCP is streamlining the bot reporting process and coming up with ways to avoid having to make judgment calls for each bot report. This streamlining is good. I would still like to hear what is being done to continually prove that bot reports are being acted upon. In the presentation CCP Sreegs was commenting about how the old bot reporting system has a bad (no) feedback system. It seemed that Sreegs was going to comment on how the new bot reporting system feedback would be changed, but then it looked like Sreegs forgot to talk about it (assuming there was something planned). Are the players who report bots going to be notified if their reports successfully catch a botter? Is there going to be a Wall-of-Shame (or equivalent)? If some privacy agreement is preventing CCP from disclosing the result of a bot report, then that privacy agreement needs to be changed. CCP needs to be visible in its handling of botters and continually prove to the playerbase that botters are being delt with; lack of visibility will lead to additional (and justified) anti-botter rage. I will wait for the Devblog to be published to see if my concerns are addressed there. I am still waiting on the Devblog... Confirming that I am still waiting on the Devblog... I'm hoping it will address the topics: 1) Improving the feedback from CCP received by players who report bots, and 2) How CCP is going to prove regularly that CCP is taking action against botters. (I understand that the forum issues have taken more of Sreegs' attention, which is reasonable.)
Yuda Mann	Posted - 2011.04.13 19:06:00 - [2284] Originally by: Iarga as miner i see a loooot less bots flying into the belt and warping out when full.. thats ore i also mine ice at times(boring but good when doing some reading/yotube/movie.) i se a mass change, there used to be at least 30 people in the icebelt now only 4-5 huge change. A large number of mining corps and alliances have been wardec'd in the past couple weeks. You're not seeing the effect of CCP's bans, you're seen the effect of a whole lot of wardecs. As the wars drag on you'll start seeing more miners in NPC corps. HI!
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.04.13 23:32:00 - [2285] Originally by: Slate Shoa (I understand that the forum issues have taken more of Sreegs' attention, which is reasonable.) The ****storm over the weekend was hoped to be making it so people would forget this problem -------- Dammit, they killed the post where Sreegs says personal attacks are against the rules. I wanted to lol at him for that
Aubrey Addams	Posted - 2011.04.14 09:01:00 - [2286] EXUSE ME BUT WHERE IS THAT "REPORT BOTTING" BUTTON THEY PROMISED? Botters seems to be populating the belts here again.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.04.14 11:02:00 - [2287] Out of curiosity, how many destroyers would it take to kill an untanked Hulk? I tried logging into the test server last night to find out, but it wouldn't load. ---------------------------------------- Looking for a good system, or area, to AFK Cloak. PM me with infos, or if you want a partner to be AFK with.
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.04.14 19:20:00 - [2288] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 14/04/2011 16:13:20 Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 14/04/2011 15:40:04 Out of curiosity, how many destroyers would it take to kill an untanked Hulk? I tried logging into the test server last night to find out, but it wouldn't load. In related news, PL guy kills Russian botter, and gets kicked from PL as a result. Edit - EN24 link Also, thanks to Barrakus for this.. interesting pics LOL... this is funny... and sad... and about destroyers... well... 1BS, 2 volleys and almost every hulk is dead (i dont know for some uber fits, so thats why almost)... i hope this helps and you can recalculate that for destroyers...
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.04.14 20:14:00 - [2289] Are anyone experiencing bots asking them to sell your contracts a little cheaper then the price you are asking for? I've had the same person write me 3 times now, on 3 different contracts, and the conv is always the same. First he ask me to sell it something like 20M lower then the price i'm asking, when i say no he tries with 15M lower. He says the exact same thing every time, and always closes the conv without saying anything after the second attempt, and it always happens 5-10M after i posted the contract. Anyone else experiencing this?
VaMei Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.14 21:06:00 - [2290] Edited by: VaMei on 14/04/2011 21:06:16 Originally by: Severian Carnifex @ All: ppl, do you see any results of this anti bot war??? In some of my low-sec travels, there were systems with players that might have been bots that seemed to be running courier missions every time I passed through. They had names that took more thought than rolling your face on the keyboard and were in player corps, so I can't say for sure that they were bots. Because they were in corps with some of the area's known pirates, I didn't go out of my way to **** 'em off. There's no profit to be made in killing off T1 haulers full of mission loot when it's just going to draw the wolves to my green pastures. I can say that those systems used to have the same half a dozen to to a dozen players every time I passed through; day or night, 7 days a week. Now they're empty.

Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.15 00:28:00 - [2291] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 14/04/2011 16:13:20 Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 14/04/2011 15:40:04 Out of curiosity, how many destroyers would it take to kill an untanked Hulk? I tried logging into the test server last night to find out, but it wouldn't load. In related news, PL guy kills Russian botter, and gets kicked from PL as a result. Edit - EN24 link Also, thanks to Barrakus for this.. interesting pics So... would the alliance in this case (or at least the command staff of it) ALL get a first level punishment, or is this in the realm of CCP doesnt care?
Tye Coon	Posted - 2011.04.15 00:40:00 - [2292] CCP please make new space not connected to the rest and give it to the botters, Since it's obvious there is nothing you can or will do. Give space back to those who play the game. In fact let them into the CCP engineering space pretty plz. Thanks
Jojo Jackson Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.15 00:51:00 - [2293] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 14/04/2011 16:13:20 Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 14/04/2011 15:40:04 Out of curiosity, how many destroyers would it take to kill an untanked Hulk? I tried logging into the test server last night to find out, but it wouldn't load. In related news, PL guy kills Russian botter, and gets kicked from PL as a result. Edit - EN24 link Also, thanks to Barrakus for this.. interesting pics So... would the alliance in this case (or at least the command staff of it) ALL get a first level punishment, or is this in the realm of CCP doesnt care? Actual if this is true CCP MUST punish the people who suport botting too (ak the leadership of PL) to not losing any respect. If they don't punish them, it shows clearly, that CCP don't care about the problem and boting is a legal way to build a nullsec alliance!
Type VIIb	Posted - 2011.04.15 03:13:00 - [2294] Edited by: Type VIIb on 15/04/2011 03:14:38 The 'tear down' that CCP would need to do will need to be methodical and paced. A massive 'hammer' approach would be far more destabling than what the current impact of botting is now. Right now the approach is the 'scared straight' approach. Somewhere in the madness of kill-the-bots mentality with all the torches and pick forks there needs to be a real-world consideration of what has been allowed to go on for far too long. Bottom line is going to be the bottom line. CCP has said there is too much isk in the system and that that needs to be addressed. You are at the brink of a potential 'housing bubble' type issue. The PLEX is trading at near record levels right now. Why? Because there is so much money moving in the system. IF CCP can curtail the botting issue, there is a serious concern that a PLEX will lose its value. Rat bots are putting isk in to the market at unhuman rates. Unlike mining which only depresses the value of ore and metal, the rat bot is actually adding isk in to the pool. At what point is the 'extra real world cash player' going to look at a GTC/PLEX and go, "You know what? That isn't worth my money."? 200 million isk? 250, 300, 350? Many players go 'oh yeah a 200 million isk PLEX, alright!'... but if you are the guy spending real money, is it worth the real world cash? If not, that means CCP will lose money as well. Now that will of course reduce supply and drive prices back up, but a lower supply means less money to CCP. A serious, focused, and constant anti-bot campaign spread out over time will slowly put the system back in line. Anything forced quickly will cause turmoil in the markets. In fact it is already happening in some cases, unless you don't consider a 25% jump in mining prices in a week to be notable. In the long run, such a plan may result in alteration of mining yields and/or rat bounty prices. CPP doesn't want the accounts gone, that result in loss of income. They also will want to find a reasonable price point on the cost of PLEX. A depressed PLEX will discourage sales of GTCs and also hurt the CCP bottom line. Bottom line, patients. You are not going to see a huge slash at 'insert alliance name here' with the current process. It would have all the political headache of the BPO controversy of old. It will be more like speeding tickets. "Hey, you pulled me over but not that guy!", "Well, if he does it again tomorrow maybe I'll get him then." Now, this thread is all about getting blood, and that I can understand, but I doubt you will see any sort of 'instant gratification' on this issue. It might take over a year to have a notable overall impact.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.15 13:09:00 - [2295] Funny thing about that; wonder if theyll lose more actual players to their inactivity over the issue, especially in 0.0
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.04.16 02:25:00 - [2296] dont let it die, like the botting front lines one seems to be as well ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Smarcus Smokus	Posted - 2011.04.16 03:03:00 - [2297] Originally by: Type VIIb ....lots of words... I'm trying to determine if you are purporting that bots reduce the in game value PLEX or vice versa.... Bots increase the in-game value of PLEX. At a minimum, bot subs are paid for by PLEX, adding demand. If they RMT too, then the isk they sell to players reduces the supply of PLEX. Bots need to go, but not because the price of PLEX is too low.
IsoMetricanTaliac 2 Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.04.16 04:24:00 - [2298] Having now been unlucky/lucky enough to experience the edge having an RMT background gives while fighting against known RMT'ing alliances it has become quite apparent that it has more or less ruined the game for those of us who don't wish to take part in it. There is no way in hell any alliance or Co-Operative in this game will EVER be able to even begin to scratch these known RMT'ers & with them now also basically just going through 0.0 taking anything & everything they want. Things will become even harder for those who want to try to establish in 0.0... Won't be hard if they agree to PAY the RMT'ers to rent the space, but any other way of trying to get in would probably end with the RMT'ers taking all of their assets out of action. The is also happening to established alliances & co-ops as there is just no way of being able to keep up with the resources the RMT'ers are able to throw at things due to the volume of ISK etc they have moving around the place. It is a shame that CCP have allowed these people to do what they are doing so blatantly, & if people who don't have access to the log files can get evidence then CCP's stories of doing their best to catch them are just that, STORIES/FAIRY TALES. I know it must be hard for CCP to have to watch these idiots wrecking the game & be in fear of doing anything just in case they all stop playing Problem is in keeping them happy your going to end up losing many many others. For many the days of EVE are over, for others their final days are coming as they play out what is left on their subscriptions. For myself & a whole lot of the people in the corp/alliance/co-op I am in we have all had enough & are moving on to a game where RMT'ing is not tolerated by ANY players/GM's/Dev's/who evers. Personally I NEVER thought the end of EVE for so many of us would be due to RMT'ing, as it always seemed to promise something would be done. Now we are able to see just how well those promises were kept it really just isn't worth spending money on a game to help support the RMT'ers. In a Time When Many Will Seek Death, There Will Always Be Those Like Me Who Won't Mind Helping Them Along Their Way!?!
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.04.16 04:39:00 - [2299] Well, when you can pay real money to buy the supercaps for your alliance, they overpower the guys that have to work for theirs -------- Dammit, they killed the post where Sreegs says personal attacks are against the rules. I wanted to lol at him for that
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.04.16 10:29:00 - [2300] Originally by: IsoMetricanTaliac 2 Having now been unlucky/lucky enough to experience the edge having an RMT background gives while fighting against known RMT'ing alliances it has become quite apparent that it has more or less ruined the game for those of us who don't wish to take part in it. There is no way in hell any alliance or Co-Operative in this game will EVER be able to even begin to scratch these known RMT'ers & with them now also basically just going through 0.0 taking anything & everything they want. Things will become even harder for those who want to try to establish in 0.0... Won't be hard if they agree to PAY the RMT'ers to rent the space, but any other way of trying to get in would probably end with the RMT'ers taking all of their assets out of action. The is also happening to established alliances & co-ops as there is just no way of being able to keep up with the resources the RMT'ers are able to throw at things due to the volume of ISK etc they have moving around the place. It is a shame that CCP have allowed these people to do what they are doing so blatantly, & if people who don't have access to the log files can get evidence then CCP's stories of doing their best to catch them are just that, STORIES/FAIRY TALES. I know it must be hard for CCP to have to watch these idiots wrecking the game & be in fear of doing anything just in case they all stop playing Problem is in keeping them happy your going to end up losing many many others. For many the days of EVE are over, for others their final days are coming as they play out what is left on their subscriptions. For myself & a whole lot of the people in the corp/alliance/co-op I am in we have all had enough & are moving on to a game where RMT'ing is not tolerated by ANY players/GM's/Dev's/who evers. Personally I NEVER thought the end of EVE for so many of us would be due to RMT'ing, as it always seemed to promise something would be done. Now we are able to see just how well those promises were kept it really just isn't worth spending money on a game to help support the RMT'ers. +1

Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.04.16 18:02:00 - [2301] Originally by: Avila Cracko Originally by: IsoMetricanTaliac 2 Having now been unlucky/lucky enough to experience the edge having an RMT background gives while fighting against known RMT'ing alliances it has become quite apparent that it has more or less ruined the game for those of us who don't wish to take part in it. There is no way in hell any alliance or Co-Operative in this game will EVER be able to even begin to scratch these known RMT'ers & with them now also basically just going through 0.0 taking anything & everything they want. Things will become even harder for those who want to try to establish in 0.0... Won't be hard if they agree to PAY the RMT'ers to rent the space, but any other way of trying to get in would probably end with the RMT'ers taking all of their assets out of action. The is also happening to established alliances & co-ops as there is just no way of being able to keep up with the resources the RMT'ers are able to throw at things due to the volume of ISK etc they have moving around the place. It is a shame that CCP have allowed these people to do what they are doing so blatantly, & if people who don't have access to the log files can get evidence then CCP's stories of doing their best to catch them are just that, STORIES/FAIRY TALES. I know it must be hard for CCP to have to watch these idiots wrecking the game & be in fear of doing anything just in case they all stop playing Problem is in keeping them happy your going to end up losing many many others. For many the days of EVE are over, for others their final days are coming as they play out what is left on their subscriptions. For myself & a whole lot of the people in the corp/alliance/co-op I am in we have all had enough & are moving on to a game where RMT'ing is not tolerated by ANY players/GM's/Dev's/who evers. Personally I NEVER thought the end of EVE for so many of us would be due to RMT'ing, as it always seemed to promise something would be done. Now we are able to see just how well those promises were kept it really just isn't worth spending money on a game to help support the RMT'ers. +1 +1 too ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Henry Haphorn Gallente Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.04.16 19:19:00 - [2302] Originally by: IsoMetricanTaliac 2 Having now been unlucky/lucky enough to experience the edge having an RMT background gives while fighting against known RMT'ing alliances it has become quite apparent that it has more or less ruined the game for those of us who don't wish to take part in it. There is no way in hell any alliance or Co-Operative in this game will EVER be able to even begin to scratch these known RMT'ers & with them now also basically just going through 0.0 taking anything & everything they want. Things will become even harder for those who want to try to establish in 0.0... Won't be hard if they agree to PAY the RMT'ers to rent the space, but any other way of trying to get in would probably end with the RMT'ers taking all of their assets out of action. The is also happening to established alliances & co-ops as there is just no way of being able to keep up with the resources the RMT'ers are able to throw at things due to the volume of ISK etc they have moving around the place. It is a shame that CCP have allowed these people to do what they are doing so blatantly, & if people who don't have access to the log files can get evidence then CCP's stories of doing their best to catch them are just that, STORIES/FAIRY TALES. I know it must be hard for CCP to have to watch these idiots wrecking the game & be in fear of doing anything just in case they all stop playing Problem is in keeping them happy your going to end up losing many many others. For many the days of EVE are over, for others their final days are coming as they play out what is left on their subscriptions. For myself & a whole lot of the people in the corp/alliance/co-op I am in we have all had enough & are moving on to a game where RMT'ing is not tolerated by ANY players/GM's/Dev's/who evers. Personally I NEVER thought the end of EVE for so many of us would be due to RMT'ing, as it always seemed to promise something would be done. Now we are able to see just how well those promises were kept it really just isn't worth spending money on a game to help support the RMT'ers. -1 I will tell you why. If you give up simply because RMT has taken over Eve Online, then besically you are sending the wrong message. You are telling the botters and RMT folks that they have won and we have lost. You can leave if you want, but people like me will stay here and fight off until Eve Online ceases to exist. Why? Because we believe there is still hope to win against botters and RMTs. The more of us that stay here hunting down bots, ganking them, griefing them, banning them, reporting them, spying on them, then the better chance we have at winning against them. Let's face it. CCP can't fight this alone. They need us to deal with the problem as much as we need them. Without us, CCP would potentially lose. Also, don't think that CCP/Capsuleers/GMs/Devs tolerates RMT or bots. If that was the case, the botting community wouldn't be complaining at all about being banned by CCP nor would the bot community post tips on how to avoid detection. In fact, we care more about saving Eve Online from RMT/Botting than you might think. Just read the thread hosted by Ninjaspud that have been followed up by more than 10 pages of support, intel on bot communities, and how effective CCP has been against them. We are fighting the good fight and we will not rest until we win. Please, stay here with us and help us fight. Besides, who is to say that the next MMO you get into won't suffer the same problem as Eve Online already is?
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.04.16 20:39:00 - [2303] Hey, did I miss the (much anticipated) dev blog on this subject? I suppose after tragically failing on development of the new forums, things are probably busy at CCP. But then again, I am dying to see some graphs, tables, anything that demonstrates progress on the bot front. Right now, with botting as prevalent as it is, the majority of important game content appears to be nothing more than a sham. How can a single player's actions count for squat (ala butterfly effect) when there is no level playing field. This thread has been quite active for over four months now (and botting has been a source of friction for years). CCP's fanfest presentation was a start; but requires the followup that they promised the player base.
Tyrant's Bane Gallente United Systems Navy	Posted - 2011.04.16 20:42:00 - [2304] Bots need to be killed with fire
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.04.16 21:15:00 - [2305] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 16/04/2011 21:16:13 Originally by: Paul Mustaka Hekard Hey, did I miss the (much anticipated) dev blog on this subject? I suppose after tragically failing on development of the new forums, things are probably busy at CCP. But then again, I am dying to see some graphs, tables, anything that demonstrates progress on the bot front. Nah, you're not missing nothing. The forum fiasco was planned so they could say they were really busy fixing it but instead go on holiday. Quote: Right now, with botting as prevalent as it is, the majority of important game content appears to be nothing more than a sham. How can a single player's actions count for squat (ala butterfly effect) when there is no level playing field. You'd feel the same way if there were no bots. Quote: This thread has been quite active for over four months now (and botting has been a source of friction for years). CCP's fanfest presentation was a start; but requires the followup that they promised the player base. Yeah, but since fanfest it's slowed a lot. I think the drum beaters have concluded that CCP just doesn't give a sh it.
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.04.17 09:49:00 - [2306] Originally by: Mr Kidd Edited by: Mr Kidd on 16/04/2011 21:16:13 Originally by: Paul Mustaka Hekard Hey, did I miss the (much anticipated) dev blog on this subject? I suppose after tragically failing on development of the new forums, things are probably busy at CCP. But then again, I am dying to see some graphs, tables, anything that demonstrates progress on the bot front. Nah, you're not missing nothing. The forum fiasco was planned so they could say they were really busy fixing it but instead go on holiday. Quote: Right now, with botting as prevalent as it is, the majority of important game content appears to be nothing more than a sham. How can a single player's actions count for squat (ala butterfly effect) when there is no level playing field. You'd feel the same way if there were no bots. Quote: This thread has been quite active for over four months now (and botting has been a source of friction for years). CCP's fanfest presentation was a start; but requires the followup that they promised the player base. Yeah, but since fanfest it's slowed a lot. I think the drum beaters have concluded that CCP just doesn't give a sh it. I really hope that thats not the truth... that CCP is working on this... because there is many players that have many chars and paying a couple of subscriptions and questioning him/herself why are they paying it... end answer is: because hope. But it hurts when you enter the game and see that many other ppl have all stuff free... becouse they have bots that are stealing ore infront your lasers / staling rats infront your weapons / or just bumping you with besotwers every time you undock doing currier missions... And than their main comes and kill you with your own ISK... that hurts... thats realy hurts... don't take away that hope from us... and give us results... and give the meaning to our efforts... because now... every our efforts dont worth anything...
Guitonkagya Minmatar The Ouroboros Partnership	Posted - 2011.04.17 12:48:00 - [2307] Originally by: Henry Haphorn -1 I will tell you why. If you give up simply because RMT has taken over Eve Online, then besically you are sending the wrong message. You are telling the botters and RMT folks that they have won and we have lost. You can leave if you want, but people like me will stay here and fight off until Eve Online ceases to exist. Why? Because we believe there is still hope to win against botters and RMTs. The more of us that stay here hunting down bots, ganking them, griefing them, banning them, reporting them, spying on them, then the better chance we have at winning against them. Let's face it. CCP can't fight this alone. They need us to deal with the problem as much as we need them. Without us, CCP would potentially lose. Also, don't think that CCP/Capsuleers/GMs/Devs tolerates RMT or bots. If that was the case, the botting community wouldn't be complaining at all about being banned by CCP nor would the bot community post tips on how to avoid detection. In fact, we care more about saving Eve Online from RMT/Botting than you might think. Just read the thread hosted by Ninjaspud that have been followed up by more than 10 pages of support, intel on bot communities, and how effective CCP has been against them. We are fighting the good fight and we will not rest until we win. Please, stay here with us and help us fight. Besides, who is to say that the next MMO you get into won't suffer the same problem as Eve Online already is? + 1 meeeeellion dollars!!! NEVER GIVE UP THE FIGHT!!! I agree its a war and CCP can't do it alone. ... On a serperate but related note: About a week ago I reported 7 macro miners in my home system in the Heimatar region. The other day i had a response to my petition from CCP thanking me for reporting these (non)players. I will wait and see if these botters return, but from initial observations it seems most of them have high-tailed it out of there, perhaps they have a two week ban? Although interestingly enough a 'new' batch of players have suddenly appeared, Legit Alts? or yet another infestation of (the same) botters? Time and observation will tell. Keep fighting the good fight! o7
Alexi Komanov	Posted - 2011.04.17 16:45:00 - [2308] The thought that people are giving up the fight is a saddening one.
Guitonkagya Minmatar The Ouroboros Partnership	Posted - 2011.04.17 20:39:00 - [2309] Originally by: Tyrant's Bane Bots need to be killed with fire Or a 1400mm Artie specced Maelstrom
Henry Haphorn Gallente Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.04.17 20:56:00 - [2310] Originally by: Guitonkagya Originally by: Tyrant's Bane Bots need to be killed with fire Or a 1400mm Artie specced Maelstrom Or a helleva lot of T1 Thrashers.

Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.17 22:03:00 - [2311] Screw all this Bull***, go to EVE 2.0 and leave all this behind, too much mucking around to fix all of it. On another note.... SWToR is looking promising for Industrial type persons like me, an established char can have up to 5 "Companions" working for them back at their own ship (or Guild Capitol Ship in the future), and take another one along with you, and one more off doing gathering type tasks by them self, all at the same time. I truely believe, when SWToR releases later this year, it will drain EVE more than people realize, and all of these dynamics and bots you people are complaining about now, are going to take another change direction. Anyway, carry on with your Bot Raging, I am anticipating that my 9 accounts will be going dorment with SWToR, not getting rid of them, just letting them go dorment. 4 Mining accts, 1 Orca, 1 Hauler, 2 missioning, one dedicated trade, with research/PI chars scattered among them. 0/
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2011.04.17 23:02:00 - [2312] Good thing then that no insider leaked details on how much of a failure SWToR will be then, so you can with good consciousness let your nine accounts go dormant.
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.17 23:05:00 - [2313] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Good thing then that no insider leaked details on how much of a failure SWToR will be then, so you can with good consciousness let your nine accounts go dormant. Blah Blah, heard it before, like before a game called EVE released, and other successful titles, they all come to and end...
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2011.04.17 23:20:00 - [2314] Originally by: Minarete Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Good thing then that no insider leaked details on how much of a failure SWToR will be then, so you can with good consciousness let your nine accounts go dormant. Blah Blah, heard it before, like before a game called EVE released, and other successful titles, they all come to and end... Have fun with the 20gigs worth of dialog that make up the best part of the game. Maybe they manage to pull a miracle and not turn it into another warhammer.
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.17 23:25:00 - [2315] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Minarete Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Good thing then that no insider leaked details on how much of a failure SWToR will be then, so you can with good consciousness let your nine accounts go dormant. Blah Blah, heard it before, like before a game called EVE released, and other successful titles, they all come to and end... Have fun with the 20gigs worth of dialog that make up the best part of the game. Maybe they manage to pull a miracle and not turn it into another warhammer. So I assume you know about the UI button to skip that right? on the other hand, for the people that enjoy that type of immersion, it is an option that exists, unlike umm EVE? Anyway, this ia a BOT RAGER threadnaight, not a SWToR thread, back to topic...
Jaden Rose	Posted - 2011.04.18 00:07:00 - [2316] What I find shocking about all of this, the issue has been going on for years. Not only is botting an issue, but look back, an remember the moon mining exploit. I can remember renting space from Goodfellas in Deklein, an seeing bots mining for them. They were desperate for minerals, they were losing their war. I have flown thru drone space, an the areas around it, an the bots there outnumber the players by 2 to 1. Its just shocking that people are finally realizing that the major alliances have alot to do with the botting. It doesn't surprise me that PL has been accused of having bots, it does surprise me it has taken this long for someone to figure out what alot of us already knew. You don't run one of, or the best pvp alliances without ships, an sometimes people cut corners in desperation. As for the whole issue with finaces, I really hope people don't believe getting rid of the botters would hurt CCP. If anything, it would increase their revenue. Just because you banned a botter doesn't mean that you got rid of them. What it means is, now they have to buy a new account, an start over again. An seriously, what does that mean? Well, if algebra was never easy for you, then don't worry about figuring it out. The botters are supplying the gold sellers, or in this case the isk sellers. This is a huge market, just google away, an you will see. When people start investing alot of time an money into this sort of venture, they start making all sorts of back-up plans, an fail-safes. I hate to be a pesimest, CCP will never get rid of the botters, EVER. You can live in your dream world an say "oh yes they will", but, go look at WoW, Blizzard has been spending millions to fight gold farmers, an they aren't getting rid of them, they keep multiplying like Cockroaches. CCP could shut down all of the botters, it would be real easy, an it would force the botters to rethink their stradegy. It would also make it harder for the botters to keep working. The answer is so obvious, yet, it would create shockwaves, an people fear rocking the boat. So, until CCP grows a pair, the issue won't get resolved. I do believe CCP is trying, I just think they are too timid in their approach.
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.18 02:28:00 - [2317] Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 18/04/2011 02:37:02 Originally by: Paul Mustaka Hekard Hey, did I miss the (much anticipated) dev blog on this subject? if you missed it, I did too. The last blog I read was about the forum **up. Originally by:** Mr Kidd Nah, you're not missing nothing. The forum fiasco was planned so they could say they were really busy fixing it but instead go on holiday. Im honestly actually thinking this way, especially how OBVIOUS a **up that security mistake was and how Sreegs was all about the breach not being his department. It was such an obvious thing to see and test, how could they miss it unless it was on purpose. Originally by:** Minarete Screw all this Bull*, go to EVE 2.0 and leave all this behind, too much mucking around to fix all of it. On another note.... SWToR is looking promising for Industrial type persons like me, an established char can have up to 5 "Companions" working for them back at their own ship (or Guild Capitol Ship in the future), and take another one along with you, and one more off doing gathering type tasks by them self, all at the same time. I truely believe, when SWToR releases later this year, it will drain EVE more than people realize, and all of these dynamics and bots you people are complaining about now, are going to take another change direction. Anyway, carry on with your Bot Raging, I am anticipating that my 9 accounts will be going dorment with SWToR, not getting rid of them, just letting them go dorment. 4 Mining accts, 1 Orca, 1 Hauler, 2 missioning, one dedicated trade, with research/PI chars scattered among them. 0/ Yeah cause SWTOR wont have bots. Ever. Originally by:** Rakshasa Taisab Good thing then that no insider leaked details on how much of a failure SWToR will be then, so you can with good consciousness let your nine accounts go dormant. Or that they literally need a million subs (not box sales, full on continuous subs) to get out of the red the first year (an that estimate was from like last year, which means they will likely need even more subs). Originally by: Minarete Anyway, this ia a BOT RAGER threadnaight, not a SWToR thread, back to topic... lol YOU bring up the topic "SWTOR is better than EVE" on the EVE-O and youre butthurt when ppl defend EVE? Try this argument on the SWTOR forums. you might havea more positive conversation.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.18 03:22:00 - [2318] Originally by: Paul Mustaka Hekard Hey, did I miss the (much anticipated) dev blog on this subject? I suppose after tragically failing on development of the new forums, things are probably busy at CCP. But then again, I am dying to see some graphs, tables, anything that demonstrates progress on the bot front. Right now, with botting as prevalent as it is, the majority of important game content appears to be nothing more than a sham. How can a single player's actions count for squat (ala butterfly effect) when there is no level playing field. This thread has been quite active for over four months now (and botting has been a source of friction for years). CCP's fanfest presentation was a start; but requires the followup that they promised the player base. I've been tied up with the forum issues and to be honest I want a few more weeks of analysis before issuing any kind of a report. We're also looking at how best to actually do that reporting. I don't think just slapping up a bunch of graphs showing that a bunch of people had their accounts banned really says anything about the problem. I think we're starting to get some really good information back and I'll be feeding back into things within a couple of weeks.

Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.18 05:12:00 - [2319] Hey Sreegs, Can you comment on wether or not this is legal? Dude changed the title of the thread but it used to be "is it legal to use a tool that..." Linkage
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.18 05:15:00 - [2320] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Edited by: Elyssa MacLeod on 18/04/2011 02:37:02 Originally by: Paul Mustaka Hekard Hey, did I miss the (much anticipated) dev blog on this subject? if you missed it, I did too. The last blog I read was about the forum **up. Originally by:** Mr Kidd Nah, you're not missing nothing. The forum fiasco was planned so they could say they were really busy fixing it but instead go on holiday. Im honestly actually thinking this way, especially how OBVIOUS a **up that security mistake was and how Sreegs was all about the breach not being his department. It was such an obvious thing to see and test, how could they miss it unless it was on purpose. Originally by:** Minarete Screw all this Bull*, go to EVE 2.0 and leave all this behind, too much mucking around to fix all of it. On another note.... SWToR is looking promising for Industrial type persons like me, an established char can have up to 5 "Companions" working for them back at their own ship (or Guild Capitol Ship in the future), and take another one along with you, and one more off doing gathering type tasks by them self, all at the same time. I truely believe, when SWToR releases later this year, it will drain EVE more than people realize, and all of these dynamics and bots you people are complaining about now, are going to take another change direction. Anyway, carry on with your Bot Raging, I am anticipating that my 9 accounts will be going dorment with SWToR, not getting rid of them, just letting them go dorment. 4 Mining accts, 1 Orca, 1 Hauler, 2 missioning, one dedicated trade, with research/PI chars scattered among them. 0/ Yeah cause SWTOR wont have bots. Ever. Originally by:** Rakshasa Taisab Good thing then that no insider leaked details on how much of a failure SWToR will be then, so you can with good consciousness let your nine accounts go dormant. Or that they literally need a million subs (not box sales, full on continuous subs) to get out of the red the first year (an that estimate was from like last year, which means they will likely need even more subs). Originally by: Minarete Anyway, this ia a BOT RAGER threadnaight, not a SWToR thread, back to topic... lol YOU bring up the topic "SWTOR is better than EVE" on the EVE-O and youre butthurt when ppl defend EVE? Try this argument on the SWTOR forums. you might havea more positive conversation. Excuse me, I am not butthurt in the least, that is a juvenile argument/statement. I never said some other game is better, I said "SWToR is looking promising for Industrial type persons like me". It IS getting old watching the Bot Ragers both in and out of the game, they all carry on and the only options that are brought to force is to ban botters?, Gee, how creative, and ineffective. I have played many MMOs over the last 10 plus years, they all have bots +/- to some extent and various other cheats/exploits, the difference is, that some get creative and just put the bots out of business using various methods to enable the players, I have seen it before. Banning has never stopped the bots. Will SWToR have bots? I do not doubt it one bit, I think the gamers and game devs need to use new dynamics to make bots ineffective, and not just rage, kill and ban, just make them ineffective in the environment, and they will be minimized, anyone that believes they will never exist, or will go away, is fooling them self I stand by my prediction, I think SWToR will drain many people away from EVE, we will see wont we? Also, what is the problem with me steering the thread back on topic after I myself took it on a detour? please tell...

Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.18 05:29:00 - [2321] Originally by: Minarete Anyway, this ia a BOT RAGER threadnaight, not a SWToR thread, back to topic... Makes you look butthurt when you are the one that brought it up to start with. You bring it up, then ppl shoot you down, then you try to kill the argument with "ok lets talk about botting" its just funny. and every game that ever comes out ppl are spouting how theyre gonna take ppl from this game or this game is gonna die etc etc etc. Happens in every MMO. Every game that comes out is gonna "kill WoW" too lol Its likely that at first there will be a bunch of the "ooo a new MMO must play" ppl that will jump ship but I doubt any more people will leave this game than those types. We're really better off without them, cause those are the ones that scream the loudest to turn the game theyre currently playing into the game thay last liked best and theyre the first to jump ship (after all the screaming about those changes) when the next "shiny" comes out. as for my age/maturity, Yeah I care what ppl think of this character on a forum of a video game lol try that insult again its funny
Minarete Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.18 05:40:00 - [2322] Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod Originally by: Minarete Anyway, this ia a BOT RAGER threadnaight, not a SWToR thread, back to topic... Makes you look butthurt when you are the one that brought it up to start with. You bring it up, then ppl shoot you down, then you try to kill the argument with "ok lets talk about botting" its just funny. and every game that ever comes out ppl are spouting how theyre gonna take ppl from this game or this game is gonna die etc etc etc. Happens in every MMO. Every game that comes out is gonna "kill WoW" too lol Its likely that at first there will be a bunch of the "ooo a new MMO must play" ppl that will jump ship but I doubt any more people will leave this game than those types. We're really better off without them, cause those are the ones that scream the loudest to turn the game theyre currently playing into the game thay last liked best and theyre the first to jump ship (after all the screaming about those changes) when the next "shiny" comes out. as for my age/maturity, Yeah I care what ppl think of this character on a forum of a video game lol try that insult again its funny I do not consider that anyone but you did any shooting down, Rakshasa Taisab did not do anything but make statement of his opinion and what he considered fact, unlike you.. You Sir, are reading far more emotion in to all of this than should be, it is just a game, it is just a game, repeat that, and maybe I will see you in the next one..
Elyssa MacLeod	Posted - 2011.04.18 05:42:00 - [2323] Originally by: Minarete You Sir, are reading far more emotion in to all of this than should be, it is just a game, it is just a game, repeat that, and maybe I will see you in the next one.. [/quote lol yer a funny guy you know? thanks for the laughs
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.04.18 11:52:00 - [2324] I like the "we need to help CCP police their game" comments. Feelings on this aside, I'm just waiting for them nerfing one of the more powerful tools out there to disrupt 0.0 ratting macros... some kind of afk cloaking nerf. You know it's coming... ---------------------------------------- Looking for a good system, or area, to AFK Cloak. PM me with infos, or if you want a partner to be AFK with.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.04.18 12:34:00 - [2325] Does anyone here believe that with maximal effort to the extent that CCP could wage war on bots without adversely affecting legit players that we'll be completely bot free? Very seriously my answer would be NO. I suggest that CCP stop fighting the bots. People are botting for isk, because content is just Fing boring, they don't have 30 hours a day to play Eve in a competitive way, the grind is just too Fing long in this game. Don't tell me the grind isn't too long. I live in a wh. On most days 200mil/hour PVE is very possible. It still just isn't enough when you consider all the isk sinks, operational costs, etc. So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.04.18 13:15:00 - [2326] Originally by: Mr Kidd So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" Reminds me of PLEX -------- Dammit, they killed the post where Sreegs says personal attacks are against the rules. I wanted to lol at him for that
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.18 13:51:00 - [2327] Originally by: Mr Kidd So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. First, many players do not consider isk making to be mind numbingly boring, its what we like, its what we do. Please do not assume your opinion of the game is the same as everyone else's. Second, I do not want my enjoyment of the game destroyed by having eve turned into bots online even more than it is. Then, the costs of running a 0.0 alliance is not so large that it cannot be done with normal play, UNLESS you are fighting another alliance that is botting. If CCP beats down all the bots, the playing field will be level, just with fewer SCs. Also, trying to regulate personal bots to a pre-determined level will take as much, if not more effort than just killing them all. So I say kill them all. If a 0.0 alliance is having trouble making ships, there are a ton of people in high sec who are quite good at it. There are people who like industry and isk making and hate PvP just as much as you like PvP and hate isk making. If you stop insulting them, stop forcing them to do hated activities, and invite them in, you can get your ships.
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.04.18 16:19:00 - [2328] Originally by: Severian Carnifex Originally by: Mr Kidd Edited by: Mr Kidd on 16/04/2011 21:16:13 Originally by: Paul Mustaka Hekard Hey, did I miss the (much anticipated) dev blog on this subject? I suppose after tragically failing on development of the new forums, things are probably busy at CCP. But then again, I am dying to see some graphs, tables, anything that demonstrates progress on the bot front. Nah, you're not missing nothing. The forum fiasco was planned so they could say they were really busy fixing it but instead go on holiday. Quote: Right now, with botting as prevalent as it is, the majority of important game content appears to be nothing more than a sham. How can a single player's actions count for squat (ala butterfly effect) when there is no level playing field. You'd feel the same way if there were no bots. Quote: This thread has been quite active for over four months now (and botting has been a source of friction for years). CCP's fanfest presentation was a start; but requires the followup that they promised the player base. Yeah, but since fanfest it's slowed a lot. I think the drum beaters have concluded that CCP just doesn't give a sh it. I really hope that thats not the truth... that CCP is working on this... because there is many players that have many chars and paying a couple of subscriptions and questioning him/herself why are they paying it... end answer is: because hope. But it hurts when you enter the game and see that many other ppl have all stuff free... becouse they have bots that are stealing ore infront your lasers / staling rats infront your weapons / or just bumping you with besotwers every time you undock doing currier missions... And than their main comes and kill you with your own ISK... that hurts... thats realy hurts... don't take away that hope from us... and give us results... and give the meaning to our efforts... because now... every our efforts dont worth anything... +1 yes... we are hoping... still...
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.04.18 16:21:00 - [2329] Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: Mr Kidd So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. First, many players do not consider isk making to be mind numbingly boring, its what we like, its what we do. Please do not assume your opinion of the game is the same as everyone else's. Second, I do not want my enjoyment of the game destroyed by having eve turned into bots online even more than it is. Then, the costs of running a 0.0 alliance is not so large that it cannot be done with normal play, UNLESS you are fighting another alliance that is botting. If CCP beats down all the bots, the playing field will be level, just with fewer SCs. Also, trying to regulate personal bots to a pre-determined level will take as much, if not more effort than just killing them all. So I say kill them all. If a 0.0 alliance is having trouble making ships, there are a ton of people in high sec who are quite good at it. There are people who like industry and isk making and hate PvP just as much as you like PvP and hate isk making. If you stop insulting them, stop forcing them to do hated activities, and invite them in, you can get your ships. +1 we want to play this game... we don't want that this game is played for us... and for all that don't want to play this game... for all that wants that something play this game for them... just quit and don't ruin our game...
Neamus	Posted - 2011.04.18 16:32:00 - [2330] Originally by: Avila Cracko Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: Mr Kidd So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. First, many players do not consider isk making to be mind numbingly boring, its what we like, its what we do. Please do not assume your opinion of the game is the same as everyone else's. Second, I do not want my enjoyment of the game destroyed by having eve turned into bots online even more than it is. Then, the costs of running a 0.0 alliance is not so large that it cannot be done with normal play, UNLESS you are fighting another alliance that is botting. If CCP beats down all the bots, the playing field will be level, just with fewer SCs. Also, trying to regulate personal bots to a pre-determined level will take as much, if not more effort than just killing them all. So I say kill them all. If a 0.0 alliance is having trouble making ships, there are a ton of people in high sec who are quite good at it. There are people who like industry and isk making and hate PvP just as much as you like PvP and hate isk making. If you stop insulting them, stop forcing them to do hated activities, and invite them in, you can get your ships. +1 we want to play this game... we don't want that this game is played for us... and for all that don't want to play this game... for all that wants that something play this game for them... just quit and don't ruin our game... Its a nice sentiment, but it relies on people being reasonable. And we all know that most people, especially eve players, are deliberately unreasonable. They actually derive pleasure from ruining your game play, regardless of the consequences.

Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.04.18 17:08:00 - [2331] Originally by: Neamus Originally by: Avila Cracko Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: Mr Kidd So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. First, many players do not consider isk making to be mind numbingly boring, its what we like, its what we do. Please do not assume your opinion of the game is the same as everyone else's. Second, I do not want my enjoyment of the game destroyed by having eve turned into bots online even more than it is. Then, the costs of running a 0.0 alliance is not so large that it cannot be done with normal play, UNLESS you are fighting another alliance that is botting. If CCP beats down all the bots, the playing field will be level, just with fewer SCs. Also, trying to regulate personal bots to a pre-determined level will take as much, if not more effort than just killing them all. So I say kill them all. If a 0.0 alliance is having trouble making ships, there are a ton of people in high sec who are quite good at it. There are people who like industry and isk making and hate PvP just as much as you like PvP and hate isk making. If you stop insulting them, stop forcing them to do hated activities, and invite them in, you can get your ships. +1 we want to play this game... we don't want that this game is played for us... and for all that don't want to play this game... for all that wants that something play this game for them... just quit and don't ruin our game... Its a nice sentiment, but it relies on people being reasonable. And we all know that most people, especially eve players, are deliberately unreasonable. They actually derive pleasure from ruining your game play, regardless of the consequences. Unfortunately... thats truth... but there is always hope...
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.04.18 20:57:00 - [2332] Edited by: Severian Carnifex on 18/04/2011 20:57:47 Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: Mr Kidd So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. First, many players do not consider isk making to be mind numbingly boring, its what we like, its what we do. Please do not assume your opinion of the game is the same as everyone else's. Second, I do not want my enjoyment of the game destroyed by having eve turned into bots online even more than it is. Then, the costs of running a 0.0 alliance is not so large that it cannot be done with normal play, UNLESS you are fighting another alliance that is botting. If CCP beats down all the bots, the playing field will be level, just with fewer SCs. Also, trying to regulate personal bots to a pre-determined level will take as much, if not more effort than just killing them all. So I say kill them all. If a 0.0 alliance is having trouble making ships, there are a ton of people in high sec who are quite good at it. There are people who like industry and isk making and hate PvP just as much as you like PvP and hate isk making. If you stop insulting them, stop forcing them to do hated activities, and invite them in, you can get your ships. Signed.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:55:00 - [2333] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 18/04/2011 23:56:20 My suggestion wasn't to ruin your game. It was to give everyone the same opportunity to compete with the botters that you're all complaining about and have been for years. After all, if CCP isn't doing anything to really affect botting, and it doesn't appear that they are, then they might as well institutionalize it so that everyone that wants to bot can bot. It's the same for many laws and regulation in real life. You have the honest folk who are out competed by less scrupulous people, especially in business, because the honest people have a sense of pride for being...well...honest and they won't bend or break the rules. There's nothing wrong with that. It's admirable. So, my suggestion is merely a means to level the playing field. Why have the rule if there isn't effective enforcement? CCP, if they don't intend to get serious about botting, just needs to unshackle the rest of the players. By doing so, they devalue RMT, they increase the price of plex....win win for CCP and players?
Puppet Mas'ter	Posted - 2011.04.19 01:44:00 - [2334] Edited by: Puppet Mas''ter on 19/04/2011 01:44:37 lol tho, we dont have to worry about the botters, theres only 9000 of them in the game 9000 / 360000 well thats if mothermoon's numbers are right link
Iarga	Posted - 2011.04.19 07:23:00 - [2335] Edited by: Iarga on 19/04/2011 07:27:08 Originally by: Puppet Mas'ter Edited by: Puppet Mas''ter on 19/04/2011 01:44:37 lol tho, we dont have to worry about the botters, theres only 9000 of them in the game 9000 / 360000 well thats if mothermoon's numbers are right link thats still 9000 people that need to be banned.. 9000 bots that run for 23/7 can still cause a great deal of economic damage (give me a oprinting press to print billions fake euros and no police and ill show you what damage i can do to your country :P ) ow btw bots are rising again...for 2 weeks i had no more then 4-5 players in the ice belt...since yesterday 12 and rising(and some that where there before 23/7 CCP temp bans alone doesnt work with bot users...al least trip them of the right to use plex/sell char after getting a ban for a longer time IMO
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.04.19 08:02:00 - [2336] Originally by: Mr Kidd Does anyone here believe that with maximal effort to the extent that CCP could wage war on bots without adversely affecting legit players that we'll be completely bot free? Very seriously my answer would be NO. I suggest that CCP stop fighting the bots. People are botting for isk, because content is just Fing boring, they don't have 30 hours a day to play Eve in a competitive way, the grind is just too Fing long in this game. Don't tell me the grind isn't too long. I live in a wh. On most days 200mil/hour PVE is very possible. It still just isn't enough when you consider all the isk sinks, operational costs, etc. So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. Further more, CCP needs to shut down eve and tell players to move on to another Pay-to-Bot MMO. Simply because eve is boring as it is, maintaining the game is not worth it. Besides, they need to charge every player a good-bye 200 USD, as a safety package for future unemployment period.
Pandadora	Posted - 2011.04.19 08:35:00 - [2337] Originally by: Iarga Edited by: Iarga on 19/04/2011 07:27:08 [ (give me a oprinting press to print billions fake euros and no police and ill show you what damage i can do to your country :P ) Well, isnt the FED just doing that atm?
coolzero Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.19 08:40:00 - [2338] Edited by: coolzero on 19/04/2011 08:42:02 Originally by: Pandadora Originally by: Iarga Edited by: Iarga on 19/04/2011 07:27:08 [ (give me a oprinting press to print billions fake euros and no police and ill show you what damage i can do to your country :P ) Well, isnt the FED just doing that atm? seems like the same...there is a reason eve has a real economic prof on the payroll Jack of all trades, master of none...
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2011.04.20 11:48:00 - [2339] CCP, don't you think its a little embarrassing to have a 78 page botting thread on your main message board?
lilol' me	Posted - 2011.04.20 12:01:00 - [2340] Originally by: Sader Rykane CCP, don't you think its a little embarrassing to have a 78 page botting thread on your main message board? Question is - Do you think CCP even care? or even will do anything about it? Ever? Answer : No to both....they prob selling isk themselves...

Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.04.20 13:45:00 - [2341] Originally by: lilol' me Originally by: Sader Rykane CCP, don't you think its a little embarrassing to have a 78 page botting thread on your main message board? Question is - Do you think CCP even care? or even will do anything about it? Ever? Answer : No to both....they prob selling isk themselves... GTC? Plex? Both? Of course they're selling isk!
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc. Sin City Coalition	Posted - 2011.04.20 14:15:00 - [2342] 1. ccp create new char 2. ccp invest a small some of RL cash to a project, say a few k euro (small fry for such a big company) 3. ccp buy isk from rmt to that char 4. ccp then trace all transactions of the char that sent their char the isk 5. ccp can repeat this several times and with enough digging would make it very hard for RMT to operate knowing each sale could be CCP. I wish i worked at CCP, my tactics of anti botting would have it almost nominal in 1 month tops.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.04.20 14:56:00 - [2343] Originally by: Xtreem 1. ccp create new char 2. ccp invest a small some of RL cash to a project, say a few k euro (small fry for such a big company) 3. ccp buy isk from rmt to that char 4. ccp then trace all transactions of the char that sent their char the isk 5. ccp can repeat this several times and with enough digging would make it very hard for RMT to operate knowing each sale could be CCP. I wish i worked at CCP, my tactics of anti botting would have it almost nominal in 1 month tops. It's worth remembering that whilst RMT and botting are linked they're not the same. There is RMT activity that's nothing to do with botting and bitting activity that's nothing to do with botting. That said, I would do much the same as you. Buy small qtys of ISK, and then use the evidence for a chain-banning. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Johnny FiveAlive	Posted - 2011.04.20 16:52:00 - [2344] IP ban all botters and then send ALL the toons that connect into game with that IP to doomheim. You'd loose a good number of players but hey it would clean this game up of these cheats making it a much better game for everyone concerned who plays this legitamately without cheating! This would help a few issues, isk coming into game would be substancially reduced, and the isk that's on them accounts would be removed from the game forever. Follow the isk trails and remove all isk bought from these toons. There isn't that many isk sinks in this game where isk gets totally removed form game, ie where isk doesn't get constantly recycled player to player. CCP i think wants to reduce the ammount of isk that's in game totally IMHO this would be a quick fix, however it has a knock on effect. 1. The ammount of minerals coming into game would be reduced massively as the markets won't be being floody by minerals these toons were bringing to the game, thus them making the job of the industrialists of mining a means of making isk again like it was 3+ years ago worth doing. Mineral prices would increase and so would everything. Everything cost wise is directly effected by the cost of the minerals in game. Cost of ship would go up, however once a ship is killed thats more isk lost that at presently. The cost of minerals would stablize once people relise the potental isk available in these regions that's available. These regions are dead ATM for a reason and its because of these botters. Rest of eve is way over crowded to hell. You only need to fly through drones to see how dead it is. Increase mineral prices and peeps will return to them as they'd have a reason to do so. 2. The regions these bots presently frequent would become space that is worth fighting for as the minerals these rats drop would be worth our time and effort to loot again or dare i say it mine for them. sorry for wall of text ramble
Khadann Caldari Sense of Serendipity Echoes of Nowhere	Posted - 2011.04.20 17:37:00 - [2345] Originally by: Mr Kidd Does anyone here believe that with maximal effort to the extent that CCP could wage war on bots without adversely affecting legit players that we'll be completely bot free? Very seriously my answer would be NO. I suggest that CCP stop fighting the bots. People are botting for isk, because content is just Fing boring, they don't have 30 hours a day to play Eve in a competitive way, the grind is just too Fing long in this game. Don't tell me the grind isn't too long. I live in a wh. On most days 200mil/hour PVE is very possible. It still just isn't enough when you consider all the isk sinks, operational costs, etc. So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. Hey can you tell me which bot tool you use please? Hya!
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.04.20 22:22:00 - [2346] Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: Mr Kidd So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. First, many players do not consider isk making to be mind numbingly boring, its what we like, its what we do. Please do not assume your opinion of the game is the same as everyone else's. Second, I do not want my enjoyment of the game destroyed by having eve turned into bots online even more than it is. Then, the costs of running a 0.0 alliance is not so large that it cannot be done with normal play, UNLESS you are fighting another alliance that is botting. If CCP beats down all the bots, the playing field will be level, just with fewer SCs. Also, trying to regulate personal bots to a pre-determined level will take as much, if not more effort than just killing them all. So I say kill them all. If a 0.0 alliance is having trouble making ships, there are a ton of people in high sec who are quite good at it. There are people who like industry and isk making and hate PvP just as much as you like PvP and hate isk making. If you stop insulting them, stop forcing them to do hated activities, and invite them in, you can get your ships. +1 _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.04.21 17:36:00 - [2347] Originally by: Johnny FiveAlive IP ban all botters and then send ALL the toons that connect into game with that IP to doomheim. You'd loose a good number of players but hey it would clean this game up of these cheats making it a much better game for everyone concerned who plays this legitamately without cheating! This would help a few issues, isk coming into game would be substancially reduced, and the isk that's on them accounts would be removed from the game forever. Follow the isk trails and remove all isk bought from these toons. There isn't that many isk sinks in this game where isk gets totally removed form game, ie where isk doesn't get constantly recycled player to player. CCP i think wants to reduce the ammount of isk that's in game totally IMHO this would be a quick fix, however it has a knock on effect. 1. The ammount of minerals coming into game would be reduced massively as the markets won't be being floody by minerals these toons were bringing to the game, thus them making the job of the industrialists of mining a means of making isk again like it was 3+ years ago worth doing. Mineral prices would increase and so would everything. Everything cost wise is directly effected by the cost of the minerals in game. Cost of ship would go up, however once a ship is killed thats more isk lost that at presently. The cost of minerals would stablize once people relise the potental isk available in these regions that's available. These regions are dead ATM for a reason and its because of these botters. Rest of eve is way over crowded to hell. You only need to fly through drones to see how dead it is. Increase mineral prices and peeps will return to them as they'd have a reason to do so. 2. The regions these bots presently frequent would become space that is worth fighting for as the minerals these rats drop would be worth our time and effort to loot again or dare i say it mine for them. sorry for wall of text ramble +1 but... IP baning... that wont work... 90% of Europe don't have static IP-s... IP distribution is dynamic and every 24 hours, or every time you reconnect your internet connection, you get new IP address from yours ISPs IP pool...
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.04.22 11:58:00 - [2348] Originally by: Aquila Draco Originally by: Johnny FiveAlive IP ban all botters and then send ALL the toons that connect into game with that IP to doomheim. You'd loose a good number of players but hey it would clean this game up of these cheats making it a much better game for everyone concerned who plays this legitamately without cheating! This would help a few issues, isk coming into game would be substancially reduced, and the isk that's on them accounts would be removed from the game forever. Follow the isk trails and remove all isk bought from these toons. There isn't that many isk sinks in this game where isk gets totally removed form game, ie where isk doesn't get constantly recycled player to player. CCP i think wants to reduce the ammount of isk that's in game totally IMHO this would be a quick fix, however it has a knock on effect. 1. The ammount of minerals coming into game would be reduced massively as the markets won't be being floody by minerals these toons were bringing to the game, thus them making the job of the industrialists of mining a means of making isk again like it was 3+ years ago worth doing. Mineral prices would increase and so would everything. Everything cost wise is directly effected by the cost of the minerals in game. Cost of ship would go up, however once a ship is killed thats more isk lost that at presently. The cost of minerals would stablize once people relise the potental isk available in these regions that's available. These regions are dead ATM for a reason and its because of these botters. Rest of eve is way over crowded to hell. You only need to fly through drones to see how dead it is. Increase mineral prices and peeps will return to them as they'd have a reason to do so. 2. The regions these bots presently frequent would become space that is worth fighting for as the minerals these rats drop would be worth our time and effort to loot again or dare i say it mine for them. sorry for wall of text ramble +1 but... IP baning... that wont work... 90% of Europe don't have static IP-s... IP distribution is dynamic and every 24 hours, or every time you reconnect your internet connection, you get new IP address from yours ISPs IP pool... I agree, outside of about 2 people that have no idea how to change their IP (and don't realise that asking on their botting forums would offer the advice required), banning IPs won't work. Also, who's disconnecting their internet connection so often? ;p My router is never turned off. ---------------------------------------- Looking for a good system, or area, to AFK Cloak. PM me with infos, or if you want a partner to be AFK with.
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.04.23 12:33:00 - [2349] Edited by: Elanor Vega on 23/04/2011 12:34:00 Originally by: Khadann Originally by: Mr Kidd Does anyone here believe that with maximal effort to the extent that CCP could wage war on bots without adversely affecting legit players that we'll be completely bot free? Very seriously my answer would be NO. I suggest that CCP stop fighting the bots. People are botting for isk, because content is just Fing boring, they don't have 30 hours a day to play Eve in a competitive way, the grind is just too Fing long in this game. Don't tell me the grind isn't too long. I live in a wh. On most days 200mil/hour PVE is very possible. It still just isn't enough when you consider all the isk sinks, operational costs, etc. So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. Hey can you tell me which bot tool you use please? they are now using multiple botting tools... and using little first, then second then third then first again... (one guy wrote that on one forum)... so that they don't have only one pattern of behavior all the time...
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.04.23 22:40:00 - [2350] Before cca 2 weeks I posted one question for all ppl here... now... 2 weeks later i am posting it again: Originally by: Severian Carnifex @ All: ppl, do you see any results of this anti bot war???

Cunane Jeran	Posted - 2011.04.23 23:29:00 - [2351] +1 adding my voice to the topic
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.04.24 03:07:00 - [2352] ban their Device ID, serial numbers... permanently
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.04.24 06:42:00 - [2353] Originally by: Opertone ban their Device ID, serial numbers... permanently I guess u mean local MAC address? if so I approve! armchair hackers, please name countermeasures and how hard could they be? BTW, this thread has potential...
Niegel	Posted - 2011.04.24 06:45:00 - [2354] Why not take a totaly other root. Give ppl who are a certain number of days (I don't say how much, because that would be just a detail) 23/7 in eve a health-ban of say 2 hours, graduatly going to a max of 6 hours in the timezone where it is night in there country. Because eve is a big sandbox: if you are in a corp which is at war, your number of days before the heathwarning is going into effect is extended by an other certain amound of days. It would have a impact on all botting - mining, missioning and pvp-ing - in eve end ccp can try in the meantime curtail it some more.
Nina Mercedez	Posted - 2011.04.24 07:11:00 - [2355] In other news, I found a system with 6 or 7 perma-ratters, and petitioned them last night. They were perpetually logged in, and ratting in 0.0. Today they're not online. Hey now!
Florestan Bronstein	Posted - 2011.04.24 08:00:00 - [2356] Originally by: riverini Originally by: Opertone ban their Device ID, serial numbers... permanently I guess u mean local MAC address? if so I approve! armchair hackers, please name countermeasures and how hard could they be? sudo ifconfig eth0 hw ether 01:02:03:04:05:06
Illwill Bill Nifelhem	Posted - 2011.04.24 09:09:00 - [2357] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Originally by: riverini Originally by: Opertone ban their Device ID, serial numbers... permanently I guess u mean local MAC address? if so I approve! armchair hackers, please name countermeasures and how hard could they be? sudo ifconfig eth0 hw ether 01:02:03:04:05:06 Funny becauase it's true Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
Kina Ayami Affari Sporchi	Posted - 2011.04.24 09:13:00 - [2358] + 1 to this topic. Ban the bots!
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.04.24 17:14:00 - [2359] Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 24/04/2011 17:15:03 Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Originally by: riverini Originally by: Opertone ban their Device ID, serial numbers... permanently I guess u mean local MAC address? if so I approve! armchair hackers, please name countermeasures and how hard could they be? sudo ifconfig eth0 hw ether 01:02:03:04:05:06 thats in Linux... in Mac OS: sudo ifconfig en0 lladdr 01:02:03:04:05:06 and in Win a little play with registry... P.S. may be the best way is baning of hardware serial numbers... (like ban of that HDD or MB) _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.25 04:32:00 - [2360] Originally by: Mr Kidd Does anyone here believe that with maximal effort to the extent that CCP could wage war on bots without adversely affecting legit players that we'll be completely bot free? Very seriously my answer would be NO. I suggest that CCP stop fighting the bots. People are botting for isk, because content is just Fing boring, they don't have 30 hours a day to play Eve in a competitive way, the grind is just too Fing long in this game. Don't tell me the grind isn't too long. I live in a wh. On most days 200mil/hour PVE is very possible. It still just isn't enough when you consider all the isk sinks, operational costs, etc. So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. This is simply not going to happen. Move on.



CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.25 04:34:00 - [2361] Originally by: Iarga Edited by: Iarga on 19/04/2011 07:27:08 Originally by: Puppet Mas'ter Edited by: Puppet Mas''ter on 19/04/2011 01:44:37 lol tho, we dont have to worry about the botters, theres only 9000 of them in the game 9000 / 360000 well thats if mothermoon's numbers are right link thats still 9000 people that need to be banned.. 9000 bots that run for 23/7 can still cause a great deal of economic damage (give me a oprinting press to print billions fake euros and no police and ill show you what damage i can do to your country :P ) ow btw bots are rising again...for 2 weeks i had no more then 4-5 players in the ice belt...since yesterday 12 and rising(and some that where there before 23/7 CCP temp bans alone doesnt work with bot users...al least trip them of the right to use plex/sell char after getting a ban for a longer time IMO I would welcome some interaction about how those numbers were reached to [email protected]. I don't believe them to be accurate, but I respect your statement.


CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.25 04:35:00 - [2362] Originally by: Sader Rykane CCP, don't you think its a little embarrassing to have a 78 page botting thread on your main message board? Not at all. I'd be glad I wasn't playing some other MMO where botting was happening and we shoved the problem under the door as opposed to taking it head on.


CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.25 04:37:00 - [2363] Originally by: riverini Originally by: Opertone ban their Device ID, serial numbers... permanently I guess u mean local MAC address? if so I approve! armchair hackers, please name countermeasures and how hard could they be? BTW, this thread has potential... By all means, elaborate...

riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.04.25 04:37:00 - [2364] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Mr Kidd Does anyone here believe that with maximal effort to the extent that CCP could wage war on bots without adversely affecting legit players that we'll be completely bot free? Very seriously my answer would be NO. I suggest that CCP stop fighting the bots. People are botting for isk, because content is just Fing boring, they don't have 30 hours a day to play Eve in a competitive way, the grind is just too Fing long in this game. Don't tell me the grind isn't too long. I live in a wh. On most days 200mil/hour PVE is very possible. It still just isn't enough when you consider all the isk sinks, operational costs, etc. So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. This is simply not going to happen. Move on. You know, i would add such adamant bot defenders to my watch-list if I could. Keep up the good work.
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.04.25 04:40:00 - [2365] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: riverini Originally by: Opertone ban their Device ID, serial numbers... permanently I guess u mean local MAC address? if so I approve! armchair hackers, please name countermeasures and how hard could they be? BTW, this thread has potential... By all means, elaborate... where I want to go, if if you guys really filter IP's from proxy origin, and if there is actually a way where you could ensure permanent bans for really serious offenders, that's it. Some other players mentioned more definite ways to ensure you could identify previous offenders.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.04.25 09:02:00 - [2366] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae P.S. may be the best way is baning of hardware serial numbers... (like ban of that HDD or MB) Let me introduce you to this fun little invention, called the virtual machine...
Micky rox	Posted - 2011.04.25 09:17:00 - [2367] Originally by: Mr Kidd Does anyone here believe that with maximal effort to the extent that CCP could wage war on bots without adversely affecting legit players that we'll be completely bot free? Very seriously my answer would be NO. I suggest that CCP stop fighting the bots. People are botting for isk, because content is just Fing boring, they don't have 30 hours a day to play Eve in a competitive way, the grind is just too Fing long in this game. Don't tell me the grind isn't too long. I live in a wh. On most days 200mil/hour PVE is very possible. It still just isn't enough when you consider all the isk sinks, operational costs, etc. So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. NO.. It would not be so fking boring and time consuming if it was not for all that botted isk in the circulation, basically lazy people used bots and generated so much isk and now the legit player can't be fked to play no more because they feel they can't compete. If they just leave it and do nothing it will only get worse and worse until everyone has to use a bot just so they can afford a ship, I've seen it happen in so many other games, items get to a ridiculous price due to inflation through bot use and that kills games!
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.25 09:23:00 - [2368] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Originally by: riverini Originally by: Opertone ban their Device ID, serial numbers... permanently I guess u mean local MAC address? if so I approve! armchair hackers, please name countermeasures and how hard could they be? sudo ifconfig eth0 hw ether 01:02:03:04:05:06 Its even simpler than that. Pretty much every cable router I've ever seen has an option to clone a MAC or enter your own MAC. Also, every single network card here has the option in its settings to spoof a MAC in Windows 7, Vista or XP. If its not in the settings then you can do it via the registry. You might have more luck with ADSL routers that can't bridge - most of them don't offer any way of changing the MAC via the web interface. However if the telnet interface is up then its usually just the same as Linux - ie same as your command above.
Revolution Rising Junkyard Gunners Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2011.04.25 09:32:00 - [2369] I'd like to know if people are experiencing that CCP is really doing something about this? Or are they just making noise? I notice trit prices have increased. Both the market and industry as a whole need work, but I really think personally the RMT thing will be half the fight to making mining/industry a viable profession again (as it once was). Do people think the trit price went up as a result of something CCP did or just an aftershock of the capital losses in the north?
Micky rox	Posted - 2011.04.25 09:42:00 - [2370] Don't even need to play with registry in windows... Network and Sharing Centre > Change adapter settings > right click on adapter name, then Properties > Configure > Advanced tab > Network address Then change the value in there to something like 0007083B7C33 Also useful from command prompt 'ipconfig -all' You can then see your adapters physical addresses

Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.25 12:28:00 - [2371] Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae P.S. may be the best way is baning of hardware serial numbers... (like ban of that HDD or MB) Let me introduce you to this fun little invention, called the virtual machine... Obviously it is impossible to make sure someone is permabanned, but still I think using hardware serial number is useful, and then mainly to completely ban all of their accounts. Because what I like to hear from sreegs, how are botters punished, only the botting accounts with lol-14 day bans while keeping their account until finally permabanned accounts, or do you actually do something against their mains, which is the only thing that would have effect against the non-RMT botting (which is imo the largest problem). Sure some will make sure there is absolutely no direct link between their botting account and a clean account, but the vast majority will not go further than proxies to hide their IP, if they even do that, and then hardware identifiers can help to identify their other accounts and also ban them.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.25 12:36:00 - [2372] Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae P.S. may be the best way is baning of hardware serial numbers... (like ban of that HDD or MB) Let me introduce you to this fun little invention, called the virtual machine... Obviously it is impossible to make sure someone is permabanned, but still I think using hardware serial number is useful, and then mainly to completely ban all of their accounts. Because what I like to hear from sreegs, how are botters punished, only the botting accounts with lol-14 day bans while keeping their account until finally permabanned accounts, or do you actually do something against their mains, which is the only thing that would have effect against the non-RMT botting (which is imo the largest problem). Sure some will make sure there is absolutely no direct link between their botting account and a clean account, but the vast majority will not go further than proxies to hide their IP, if they even do that, and then hardware identifiers can help to identify their other accounts and also ban them. They'd love to know this as well.

Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.04.25 14:07:00 - [2373] Edited by: Batolemaeus on 25/04/2011 14:10:14 Originally by: Furb Killer Sure some will make sure there is absolutely no direct link between their botting account and a clean account, but the vast majority will not go further than proxies to hide their IP, if they even do that, and then hardware identifiers can help to identify their other accounts and also ban them. Tutorials on how to use vmware player to neatly separate your botting account and client from your computer and throw off ccp's data collection habits aren't exactly well hidden, you know? In fact, vm use is widespread amongst people who do not want to run their bots on a separate machine. The few people who don't do this have little impact on the economic damage, as opposed to the big botting operations a la drone region renters. Originally by: Revolution Rising Do people think the trit price went up as a result of something CCP did or just an aftershock of the capital losses in the north? Capital losses have no impact on mineral prices anymore. Everyone is building at maximum capacity and is booked out for months whether the ships die or not.
Lelob	Posted - 2011.04.25 19:18:00 - [2374] Originally by: Micky rox Originally by: Mr Kidd Does anyone here believe that with maximal effort to the extent that CCP could wage war on bots without adversely affecting legit players that we'll be completely bot free? Very seriously my answer would be NO. I suggest that CCP stop fighting the bots. People are botting for isk, because content is just Fing boring, they don't have 30 hours a day to play Eve in a competitive way, the grind is just too Fing long in this game. Don't tell me the grind isn't too long. I live in a wh. On most days 200mil/hour PVE is very possible. It still just isn't enough when you consider all the isk sinks, operational costs, etc. So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. NO.. It would not be so fking boring and time consuming if it was not for all that botted isk in the circulation, basically lazy people used bots and generated so much isk and now the legit player can't be fked to play no more because they feel they can't compete. If they just leave it and do nothing it will only get worse and worse until everyone has to use a bot just so they can afford a ship, I've seen it happen in so many other games, items get to a ridiculous price due to inflation through bot use and that kills games! Staring at a bunch of rocks for several hours on end slowly decrease is not going to be made more interesting by bots being removed. The post was well thought out and entirely correct. PVE in this game is ****ing boring, and it's no wonder there are those who would want to cheat at it to avoid it. Incursions and wh's were a good start, but not nearly enough. Missions, npc ai, mining and pos' all are in severe need of a rework so that they are actually interesting. Obviously bots create problems in and of themselves, but it begs the question why some people bot in the first place. Obviously for some it's about making thousands in RMT, but I imagine for a lot of people it's because they want to play the game in a fun and interesting way, and unfortunately PVE simply doesn't fit that description.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.04.25 20:20:00 - [2375] Originally by: Lelob Staring at a bunch of rocks for several hours on end slowly decrease is not going to be made more interesting by bots being removed. The post was well thought out and entirely correct. That does not mean, however, that bots should be made officially endorsed tools. It means that CCP needs to do some proper game design for once.
Lelob	Posted - 2011.04.25 20:25:00 - [2376] Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: Lelob Staring at a bunch of rocks for several hours on end slowly decrease is not going to be made more interesting by bots being removed. The post was well thought out and entirely correct. That does not mean, however, that bots should be made officially endorsed tools. It means that CCP needs to do some proper game design for once. Fair play. It would certainly be much more welcome then new turret effects/nebulas/eye candy.
GIGAR Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.25 20:32:00 - [2377] Seeing Sreegs's posting returned a good deal of my faith in the EVE devs again; Maybe they DO care, after all ------------ "I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy
Valustus	Posted - 2011.04.25 20:50:00 - [2378] Originally by: Lelob ... [1] Staring at a bunch of rocks for several hours on end slowly decrease is not going to be made more interesting by bots being removed. ... [2] PVE in this game is ******* boring ... [3] a fun and interesting way, and unfortunately PVE simply doesn't fit that description. 1) No, but it will make more ISK faster so far fewer hours need be spent if the bots are gone. 2) Your personal opinion. Fortunately, I'm not playing in your FPS console game. 3) Ditto. The greatest attraction to Eve is that it is a fully rounded game. If you want to wage war (PvP in smaller or larger expressions) one must have the Industrial base to support going to war. Poor nations either cannot fight at all or quickly lose to an opposition with a better logistical foundation. If you want to PvP you must pay for the materiel. There are three ways to do this: a) Generate more ISK than you lose in PvP. Attaboy! b) Make ISK some other way to support your aggression/hobby. There are many ways to do this. Mining, often, being merely the entry point profession. c) Pump RL money in by buying GTC/PLEX. (An option I wish did not exist.)
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.25 21:09:00 - [2379] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae P.S. may be the best way is baning of hardware serial numbers... (like ban of that HDD or MB) Let me introduce you to this fun little invention, called the virtual machine... Obviously it is impossible to make sure someone is permabanned, but still I think using hardware serial number is useful, and then mainly to completely ban all of their accounts. Because what I like to hear from sreegs, how are botters punished, only the botting accounts with lol-14 day bans while keeping their account until finally permabanned accounts, or do you actually do something against their mains, which is the only thing that would have effect against the non-RMT botting (which is imo the largest problem). Sure some will make sure there is absolutely no direct link between their botting account and a clean account, but the vast majority will not go further than proxies to hide their IP, if they even do that, and then hardware identifiers can help to identify their other accounts and also ban them. They'd love to know this as well. Er, CCP Sreegs, they do know. If you ban someone for botting, they know you banned them. If you also ban the account of their main, they know that. If you do not ban the account of their main, they know that too. You cannot ban a player and not have that player know they have been banned. You know how they are being punished. They know what punishment they have received. The only ones who being kept in the dark are us EULA abiding players.
Henry Haphorn Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.25 21:24:00 - [2380] @ Mr Kidd - Since you make it very clear that you want CCP to embrace botting, be hopeful that I don't catch you botting.

Xylengra	Posted - 2011.04.25 21:35:00 - [2381] Originally by: Vincent Athena Er, CCP Sreegs, they do know. If you ban someone for botting, they know you banned them. If you also ban the account of their main, they know that. If you do not ban the account of their main, they know that too. You cannot ban a player and not have that player know they have been banned. You know how they are being punished. They know what punishment they have received. The only ones who being kept in the dark are us EULA abiding players. Amen. In amongst the Sreegs love ITT, there are small nuggets of truth. As has been said, over and over, unless CCP names and shames, there is absolutely no reason to believe that they are doing anything at all about botting. Notice what he said above... the went after ONE just today. ONE There is no reason not to let those that do play by the EULA know by publishing banning details, REAL details that are verifiable, other than to hypnotize those that still believe in CCPs ability to, or even intention to, squash the problem of botters. While there is some hearsay evidence that some have been banned, if the efforts were for real there would be squealing from on high from the nullsec alliances that would see noticeable drops in their income. The evidence that CCP is NOT doing much at all far outweighs any evidence that they are. The botters are laughing at these claims of action by CCP. Believe THAT.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.04.25 21:44:00 - [2382] Originally by: Henry Haphorn @ Mr Kidd - Since you make it very clear that you want CCP to embrace botting, be hopeful that I don't catch you botting. OMG, I'm someone with a contrarian point of view! Burn any witches lately? It's simple. Irresistible paradox. Scratch that, prolly too complicated. Ummmm....thinking of an example where I don't have to have pictures for the big words.........got it! Ah nevermind. Sreegs said move on so lets move on.
Rykuss	Posted - 2011.04.25 23:43:00 - [2383] Originally by: Lelob Working for stuff is boring Weak ass argument is weak.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.25 23:55:00 - [2384] Originally by: Xylengra ....... Notice what he said above... the went after ONE just today. ONE........ To be fair, I think he meant one bot program used by many, not one botter.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.04.26 00:58:00 - [2385] Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: Xylengra ....... Notice what he said above... the went after ONE just today. ONE........ To be fair, I think he meant one bot program used by many, not one botter. Perhaps, but what I see, especially when we review all the things said, in toto, is deliberate ambiguity.
Lelob	Posted - 2011.04.26 01:51:00 - [2386] Originally by: Rykuss Originally by: Lelob Working for stuff is boring Weak ass argument is weak. Not my argument. There's nothing wrong with working for your isk, but it becomes a problem when it's tedious, highly repetitive and offers nothing really interesting. Doing boring stuff isn't a motivating factor for continuing to play this game. CCP forcing people to team up together like they have for incursions is a good thing, because it's interesting and fun to interact with other people pushing for a common goal. Mindlessly shooting at a bunch of red x's or mining the same rocks for no other reason then to do something else is not fun. I can understand how it's soothing after a crappy day, but it's also unreasonable to expect people to want to be bored as hell on a continuous basis while playing a game. It's a natural consequence that people will start to look for ways to avoid being bored, while still reaping the benefits of said boring activities, hence, botting.
gonesideways	Posted - 2011.04.26 04:27:00 - [2387] To start then Why dont we have an option when you click on the toons name in local maybe that is- FLAG BOTTER Im sure a CCP rep can come online and see in person how they are reacting, maybe run a diagnostic to see if the patterns match up to a bot...just an idea. EVE is a friggin awesome game in design as well as a ridicuously large undertaking programming wise and I am sure for the most part people aren't taking a shot at the big picture here, but yeah it burns me to try to snag the botter that I KNOW FOR A FACT is there everyday...cloaks on my entry into system, and sits there ALL DAY if I afk in there with a toon. In highsec I think I'd just gank him if I was ever living in hisec...which I cant see happening :D As far as 'mining is boring' I think for the most part you guys are SOL lol...but it might not hurt to create new and interesting effects for the miners...to keep it 'interesting' or a bit more active...maybe random chance of parasitic lifeforms that have to be manually 'swatted' to prevent strip miner damage or something... I guess a question may be 'Does CCP consider mining to be a passive income'? If treated as such, then bots can and will thrive. If it is intended to be active, then the bots can be removed.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.04.26 09:53:00 - [2388] Originally by: Rykuss Originally by: Lelob Working for stuff is boring Weak ass argument is weak. On the contrary. What you edited into Lelob's post is the most important weakness of CCP's game design philosophy, embracing hard, tedious work instead of intellectually challenging, interesting design. PI is a very good example of this and, guess what..working macros for PI were available at launch.
Mikk36 Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.26 10:17:00 - [2389] Edited by: Mikk36 on 26/04/2011 10:24:46 Originally by: Othran Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Originally by: riverini Originally by: Opertone ban their Device ID, serial numbers... permanently I guess u mean local MAC address? if so I approve! armchair hackers, please name countermeasures and how hard could they be? sudo ifconfig eth0 hw ether 01:02:03:04:05:06 Its even simpler than that. Pretty much every cable router I've ever seen has an option to clone a MAC or enter your own MAC. Also, every single network card here has the option in its settings to spoof a MAC in Windows 7, Vista or XP. If its not in the settings then you can do it via the registry. You might have more luck with ADSL routers that can't bridge - most of them don't offer any way of changing the MAC via the web interface. However if the telnet interface is up then its usually just the same as Linux - ie same as your command above. Your WAN MAC address is only visible to the next router in line, the one that belongs to the ISP. If CCP would like to know that number, they would have to contact Your ISP and ask them for that MAC address. And even if they knew that number, they couldn't do anything useful with it since it's not passed along on the internet.
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:15:00 - [2390] Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 26/04/2011 11:15:41 Originally by: gonesideways ... but yeah it burns me to try to snag the botter that I KNOW FOR A FACT is there everyday...cloaks on my entry into system, and sits there ALL DAY if I afk in there with a toon. This is exactly what I did. I went to the drone regions, found a macro team of randomly named chars, and located their POS. They sat at the POS for a day or two, then must have set me blue, as they continued to rat 23/7. If they had indeed stayed sitting at the POS it would have been less obvious they were macroing. As it was, no matter what time of day I logged in, the POS empty, and they were ratting. They were duly petitioned, and a day or so later, they were not online. Or since. And it's been about a week. ----------------------------------------

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.26 11:31:00 - [2391] Originally by: Mikk36 Your WAN MAC address is only visible to the next router in line, the one that belongs to the ISP. If CCP would like to know that number, they would have to contact Your ISP and ask them for that MAC address. And even if they knew that number, they couldn't do anything useful with it since it's not passed along on the internet. The MAC address of the router/modem/NIC is visible to the local machine. Eve runs on the local machine therefore Eve can interrogate the NIC/router/modem as to what the current MAC is. If MAC matches banlist then Eve closes. Not that it matters anyway as the MAC address can be spoofed and NICs/modems/routers can be replaced.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.26 15:36:00 - [2392] Originally by: Lelob Not my argument. There's nothing wrong with working for your isk, but it becomes a problem when it's tedious, highly repetitive and offers nothing really interesting. Doing boring stuff isn't a motivating factor for continuing to play this game. CCP forcing people to team up together like they have for incursions is a good thing, because it's interesting and fun to interact with other people pushing for a common goal. Mindlessly shooting at a bunch of red x's or mining the same rocks for no other reason then to do something else is not fun. I can understand how it's soothing after a crappy day, but it's also unreasonable to expect people to want to be bored as hell on a continuous basis while playing a game. It's a natural consequence that people will start to look for ways to avoid being bored, while still reaping the benefits of said boring activities, hence, botting. Please describe a way to have mining that: Returns more reward for more effort Allows you to change what you mine to adjust to the market You would find not repetitive and boring No one would want to bot
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.04.26 16:07:00 - [2393] Quote: Your WAN MAC address is only visible to the next router in line, the one that belongs to the ISP. If CCP would like to know that number, they would have to contact Your ISP and ask them for that MAC address. And even if they knew that number, they couldn't do anything useful with it since it's not passed along on the internet Since EvE runs on the client, it may query the local MAC and send it to CCP for storage. In case of ban, the client starts, asks the CCP server for OK to allow log in, the server MAC matches a banned MAC and returns FALSE. MAC is still a weak choice. Something better would be to generate a sort of machine dependent GUID factoring in hard disk serial number, BIOS and so on. The GUID would be partially flexible, IE it could store 10 bits of information, checking 7. If the user tries to change some PC pieces, he will still stay banned until less than 7 pieces match the original GUID. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.26 16:21:00 - [2394] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Something better would be to generate a sort of machine dependent GUID factoring in hard disk serial number, BIOS and so on. The GUID would be partially flexible, IE it could store 10 bits of information, checking 7. If the user tries to change some PC pieces, he will still stay banned until less than 7 pieces match the original GUID. Still doesn't work (just use another machine) and is a support nightmare. Ask MS if you don't believe me, they spent billions on machine fingerprinting for Windows activation and still ended up with the same level of piracy. Much much MUCH higher support costs though The only way to accurately ban a given user is to KNOW who that user is. That means no more account activations with anything other than a credit/debit card (and no pre-pay cards either). I doubt CCP have the remotest idea who a large chunk of their accounts really "belong" to. ie Name, Address, Age etc. PLEX is a double-edged sword for sure. certain countries get dirt cheap basic versions of Windows as any revenue is better than none and unpatched versions of Windows are bad PR cos of the crap they spread. tl;dr piracy works - or something
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.04.27 16:00:00 - [2395] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Mr Kidd Does anyone here believe that with maximal effort to the extent that CCP could wage war on bots without adversely affecting legit players that we'll be completely bot free? Very seriously my answer would be NO. I suggest that CCP stop fighting the bots. People are botting for isk, because content is just Fing boring, they don't have 30 hours a day to play Eve in a competitive way, the grind is just too Fing long in this game. Don't tell me the grind isn't too long. I live in a wh. On most days 200mil/hour PVE is very possible. It still just isn't enough when you consider all the isk sinks, operational costs, etc. So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. This is simply not going to happen. Move on. Thnx for that...
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.04.27 22:16:00 - [2396] Edited by: Aquila Draco on 27/04/2011 22:17:37 I must BUMP this thread UP... because anti Bot war is far from the end... there is a LOT more job to do...
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.04.27 22:36:00 - [2397] Originally by: Vincent Athena Er, CCP Sreegs, they do know. If you ban someone for botting, they know you banned them. If you also ban the account of their main, they know that. If you do not ban the account of their main, they know that too. You cannot ban a player and not have that player know they have been banned. You know how they are being punished. They know what punishment they have received. The only ones who being kept in the dark are us EULA abiding players. APPLAUSE FOR THIS MAN!!!

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.28 00:45:00 - [2398] Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: Xylengra ....... Notice what he said above... the went after ONE just today. ONE........ To be fair, I think he meant one bot program used by many, not one botter. Actually what I was talking about was an additional program that we weren't aware of previously.


CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.28 00:51:00 - [2399] Originally by: Vincent Athena Er, CCP Sreegs, they do know. If you ban someone for botting, they know you banned them. If you also ban the account of their main, they know that. If you do not ban the account of their main, they know that too. You cannot ban a player and not have that player know they have been banned. You know how they are being punished. They know what punishment they have received. The only ones who are being kept in the dark are us EULA abiding players. Edit: grammer I actually misunderstood your original statement. We work to track all of the accounts and an even action is applied across all of them. This means that if for some reason we only applied a 14 day ban against one of your accounts, then when you hit your second strike we found a new one, we'll apply a 30 day ban across all the accounts. We're also watching other activity. Basically we don't just action against the account that was flagged.

Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.28 15:54:00 - [2400] Thaks for that Sreegs, you answered alot of questions. But there is one set keeps floating up: How about name and shame? Is there a legal issue with doing this? Or is it just current policy? If it is current policy, any consideration of changing it? And please do not say that you do not want to do it because it gives information to the botters. As I said, they already have that information. Naming and shaming them gives them no additional information.

Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.28 16:18:00 - [2401] Why name & shame? There's no real point to it. Giving feedback on botter petitions as in "yes they were botters and have received a ban" or "sorry but they weren't" is all that's really required. Rules on not disclosing GM correspondence cover the specific names but I'm sure we'd get a feel for the effectiveness soon enough.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.04.28 17:00:00 - [2402] Originally by: Othran Why name & shame? There's no real point to it. Giving feedback on botter petitions as in "yes they were botters and have received a ban" or "sorry but they weren't" is all that's really required. Rules on not disclosing GM correspondence cover the specific names but I'm sure we'd get a feel for the effectiveness soon enough. On the contrary, naming and shaming is THE point. 1. It proves CCP is actually doing something, something we do not have now. 2. It provides actual feedback to honest players, who may have seen or may know some of the ones banned. It's deterrent effect is increased geometrically. 3. It prevents typically wary buyers in the character bazaar from furthering the botter's profit-making by recycling near-permabanned characters.
Roq Godslayer	Posted - 2011.04.28 17:15:00 - [2403] Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: Othran Why name & shame? There's no real point to it. Giving feedback on botter petitions as in "yes they were botters and have received a ban" or "sorry but they weren't" is all that's really required. Rules on not disclosing GM correspondence cover the specific names but I'm sure we'd get a feel for the effectiveness soon enough. On the contrary, naming and shaming is THE point. 1. It proves CCP is actually doing something, something we do not have now. 2. It provides actual feedback to honest players, who may have seen or may know some of the ones banned. It's deterrent effect is increased geometrically. 3. It prevents typically wary buyers in the character bazaar from furthering the botter's profit-making by recycling near-permabanned characters. I am thinking naming and shaming will not really work. I feel this way because these are just avatars, and the person behind the avatars would still be held anonymous for privacy concerns. I do feel however, that CCP could improve on transparency. Perhaps a report on the statistics in the following categories on a monthly basis: 1. Number accounts permatetly banned. 2. Number accounts warned. Types or warning issued. 3. Number of repeat offenders warned. Tell's whether the punishments really work. 4. Systems where botting occured. Give's us an idea of which alliances and corps are supporting these activities without naming and shaming. 5. The amount of ISK that has been removed from the game. (Not just botting but RMT too).
GIGAR Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.28 17:17:00 - [2404] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Vincent Athena Er, CCP Sreegs, they do know. If you ban someone for botting, they know you banned them. If you also ban the account of their main, they know that. If you do not ban the account of their main, they know that too. You cannot ban a player and not have that player know they have been banned. You know how they are being punished. They know what punishment they have received. The only ones who are being kept in the dark are us EULA abiding players. Edit: grammer I actually misunderstood your original statement. We work to track all of the accounts and an even action is applied across all of them. This means that if for some reason we only applied a 14 day ban against one of your accounts, then when you hit your second strike we found a new one, we'll apply a 30 day ban across all the accounts. We're also watching other activity. Basically we don't just action against the account that was flagged. As by "activity", i assume you mean botting and/or RMT, there shouldn't be a second chance. Get banned once, 14 days. Alright, fair enough. Get banned twice, permanently on the offending account (and possible 30 days on the other accounts, to be fair) Obviously, this only applies to botting/RMT - other things (cough smack in local cough) shouldn't require such drastic measures, obviously ------------ "I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.28 17:29:00 - [2405] Originally by: Vincent Athena Thaks for that Sreegs, you answered alot of questions. But there is one set keeps floating up: How about name and shame? Is there a legal issue with doing this? Or is it just current policy? If it is current policy, any consideration of changing it? And please do not say that you do not want to do it because it gives information to the botters. As I said, they already have that information. Naming and shaming them gives them no additional information. There are a lot of layers to this type of response and all I can say for now is that it isn't our current policy. We are considering all options.


CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.28 17:35:00 - [2406] Originally by: Roq Godslayer I am thinking naming and shaming will not really work. I feel this way because these are just avatars, and the person behind the avatars would still be held anonymous for privacy concerns. I do feel however, that CCP could improve on transparency. Perhaps a report on the statistics in the following categories on a monthly basis: 1. Number accounts permatetly banned. 2. Number accounts warned. Types or warning issued. 3. Number of repeat offenders warned. Tell's whether the punishments really work. 4. Systems where botting occured. Give's us an idea of which alliances and corps are supporting these activities without naming and shaming. 5. The amount of ISK that has been removed from the game. (Not just botting but RMT too). I'm sorting out how best to report on progress and it's kind of a tricky situation. To give you a bit of insight, I really don't think telling you we've banned x number of accounts really gives you anything useful, nor does saying we've warned x number. I'm curious how giving you system names could give you an idea as to the alliance of the botter, given that you don't know who the actual botter is? My concern would be that we're now giving way to corporate witch hunts based on information we've provided. The amount of isk I'm also a bit concerned about as it's really just a number. Ultimately what I want to do is try to report items that actually show a measure of success. The only way numbers give anyone any concept of effectiveness is if they know the scope of the problem. If that was known we could just be rid of them and be done with it to be 100% frank with you. So what we're exploring is some creative ways to deliver information that actually speaks to our effectiveness and the work that we're doing instead of spitting out arbitrary numbers and I think we're almost there.

GIGAR Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.28 17:40:00 - [2407] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Roq Godslayer I am thinking naming and shaming will not really work. I feel this way because these are just avatars, and the person behind the avatars would still be held anonymous for privacy concerns. I do feel however, that CCP could improve on transparency. Perhaps a report on the statistics in the following categories on a monthly basis: 1. Number accounts permatetly banned. 2. Number accounts warned. Types or warning issued. 3. Number of repeat offenders warned. Tell's whether the punishments really work. 4. Systems where botting occured. Give's us an idea of which alliances and corps are supporting these activities without naming and shaming. 5. The amount of ISK that has been removed from the game. (Not just botting but RMT too). I'm sorting out how best to report on progress and it's kind of a tricky situation. To give you a bit of insight, I really don't think telling you we've banned x number of accounts really gives you anything useful, nor does saying we've warned x number. I'm curious how giving you system names could give you an idea as to the alliance of the botter, given that you don't know who the actual botter is? My concern would be that we're now giving way to corporate witch hunts based on information we've provided. The amount of isk I'm also a bit concerned about as it's really just a number. Ultimately what I want to do is try to report items that actually show a measure of success. The only way numbers give anyone any concept of effectiveness is if they know the scope of the problem. If that was known we could just be rid of them and be done with it to be 100% frank with you. So what we're exploring is some creative ways to deliver information that actually speaks to our effectiveness and the work that we're doing instead of spitting out arbitrary numbers and I think we're almost there. While I think you underestimate some of the math-wizards that plays EVE, it's good to hear such things :D Hats of for that! ------------ "I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.28 17:43:00 - [2408] The fact that we only see characters, not the players behind them can be handled. Botting pilots can be put on the wall of shame and bans for botting noted on their character sheet. Both would be removed if the character is transferred to a new account. In essence, we mark the characters that are currently on accounts that were banned. Character transfer from botting accounts by itself is an issue. A botter can transfer high skilled ratter from a 2-strike account to a clean one. CCP can deal with this in 2 ways: Catch the new account botting so fast that the botter cannot recoup the cost of the character transfer. Or change the rules to block sale of characters from accounts that have had bans.
Roq Godslayer	Posted - 2011.04.28 17:52:00 - [2409] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Roq Godslayer I am thinking naming and shaming will not really work. I feel this way because these are just avatars, and the person behind the avatars would still be held anonymous for privacy concerns. I do feel however, that CCP could improve on transparency. Perhaps a report on the statistics in the following categories on a monthly basis: 1. Number accounts permatetly banned. 2. Number accounts warned. Types or warning issued. 3. Number of repeat offenders warned. Tell's whether the punishments really work. 4. Systems where botting occured. Give's us an idea of which alliances and corps are supporting these activities without naming and shaming. 5. The amount of ISK that has been removed from the game. (Not just botting but RMT too). I'm sorting out how best to report on progress and it's kind of a tricky situation. To give you a bit of insight, I really don't think telling you we've banned x number of accounts really gives you anything useful, nor does saying we've warned x number. I'm curious how giving you system names could give you an idea as to the alliance of the botter, given that you don't know who the actual botter is? My concern would be that we're now giving way to corporate witch hunts based on information we've provided. The amount of isk I'm also a bit concerned about as it's really just a number. Ultimately what I want to do is try to report items that actually show a measure of success. The only way numbers give anyone any concept of effectiveness is if they know the scope of the problem. If that was known we could just be rid of them and be done with it to be 100% frank with you. So what we're exploring is some creative ways to deliver information that actually speaks to our effectiveness and the work that we're doing instead of spitting out arbitrary numbers and I think we're almost there. Fair enough. I gave these as examples because in my mind it seemed useful to have a picture of that. A. CCP is wielding the Ban Hammer. B. The Ban Hammer is working to prevent repeat offenders. C. Yeah, your argument the naming of systems doesn't prove corporation or alliance support of botting. D. Does botting & RMT inflate the EvE Economy or depress it? I guess I would just be interested in knowing how much ISK is really being recovered from these activities. It gives a measurement of wow, that's alot. Maybe even deter people by realizing their going to lose, and lose big time. Even going so far as someone thinking the risk is not worth the reward. Thanks for replying.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.04.28 17:57:00 - [2410] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Roq Godslayer I am thinking naming and shaming will not really work. I feel this way because these are just avatars, and the person behind the avatars would still be held anonymous for privacy concerns. I do feel however, that CCP could improve on transparency. Perhaps a report on the statistics in the following categories on a monthly basis: 1. Number accounts permatetly banned. 2. Number accounts warned. Types or warning issued. 3. Number of repeat offenders warned. Tell's whether the punishments really work. 4. Systems where botting occured. Give's us an idea of which alliances and corps are supporting these activities without naming and shaming. 5. The amount of ISK that has been removed from the game. (Not just botting but RMT too). I'm sorting out how best to report on progress and it's kind of a tricky situation. To give you a bit of insight, I really don't think telling you we've banned x number of accounts really gives you anything useful, nor does saying we've warned x number. It would tell us how many botters you'd warned/2nd warned/permabanned. Taken in isolation, a single month's figures wouldn't mean much, true. Being able to look at the trend over 3-6-9 months would, though. If the number of bot accounts being detected and acted against falls, whilst we're still seeing pervasive botting, we can ask you to account for the discrepancy. If the number falls along with a decline in bot activity, then we know you're doing a good job and we can spread good word of mouth around the MMO community Originally by: CCP Sreegs I'm curious how giving you system names could give you an idea as to the alliance of the botter, given that you don't know who the actual botter is? My concern would be that we're now giving way to corporate witch hunts based on information we've provided. Why would that be bad? I'm sure you're not so naive as to think that the owners of a given bit of space don't generally know full well who bots there, still less that you're foolish enough to believe that an NPC corp bot can't be connected with the alliance that controls the space it's botting in. Given that, by definition, a banned bot account is one that CCP themselves agree is guilty of botting, what's wrong in principle with players taking in-game action against space-holders who encourage or tolerate botting in their space? It seems like as good a reason as any to fight, and better than most. Originally by: CCP Sreegs The amount of isk I'm also a bit concerned about as it's really just a number. For the same reasons that we'd like to see the number of accounts. It will also be worthwhile to see if the average ISK removed per detected account increases or decreases, since that in itself is an indicator of how quickly you are detecting bots. Again, one-off data doesn't mean much; it's the trends that we're interested in. Originally by: CCP Sreegs Ultimately what I want to do is try to report items that actually show a measure of success. The only way numbers give anyone any concept of effectiveness is if they know the scope of the problem. If that was known we could just be rid of them and be done with it to be 100% frank with you. So what we're exploring is some creative ways to deliver information that actually speaks to our effectiveness and the work that we're doing instead of spitting out arbitrary numbers and I think we're almost there. That's fine too, but your much loved customers are also freaky sperg math-heads who lust for raw data. After years of apparent neglect by CCP, giving us some hard facts on a regular basis would do a lot to build our confidence in your commitment to addressing the bot issue in the long term. I'm sure you hardly need me to remind you that two of CCP's core principles are Transparency and Fearlessness. Giving us this information would seem to embody both of those. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.

GIGAR Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.28 18:02:00 - [2411] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: GIGAR While I think you underestimate some of the math-wizards that plays EVE, it's good to hear such things :D Hats of for that! Well from that perspective let me amend what I was saying to be that I want to report on what we consider success and we don't have a quota so numbers ain't it. Oh, I understand what you meant - I was just saying that it's great to hear CCP saying "We actually did something, and we will show you when we finish this report/devblog", in comparison to, say, the usual "we know therz bots ineve lulz, it's wip" ------------ "I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.28 18:03:00 - [2412] Originally by: CCP Sreegs ...... Ultimately what I want to do is try to report items that actually show a measure of success. The only way numbers give anyone any concept of effectiveness is if they know the scope of the problem. If that was known we could just be rid of them and be done with it to be 100% frank with you. So what we're exploring is some creative ways to deliver information that actually speaks to our effectiveness and the work that we're doing instead of spitting out arbitrary numbers and I think we're almost there. I hope what you give us is something we can verify so it can be proved to not be just some arbitrary data fed to us as a pacifier. We are trying to do what we can in the "reporting from the front lines" thread, but additional, verifiable information is desired. Its part of why "name and shame" is being requested. EVE is getting a bad name because many think CCP flat out lies about the bot issue, saying you are anti-bot but really doing nothing because the botters pay for subscriptions. Just saying that is not the case is insufficient. You got to be able to prove it beyond any reasonable doubt. Anything less and eve will continue to have a bad name, costing CCP new subscribers.
Xelena Shellar	Posted - 2011.04.28 18:05:00 - [2413] Originally by: CCP Sreegs I really don't think telling you we've banned x number of accounts really gives you anything useful, nor does saying we've warned x number. ... The amount of isk I'm also a bit concerned about as it's really just a number. ... Ultimately what I want to do is try to report items that actually show a measure of success. The only way numbers give anyone any concept of effectiveness is if they know the scope of the problem. If that was known we could just be rid of them and be done with it to be 100% frank with you. So what we're exploring is some creative ways to deliver information that actually speaks to our effectiveness and the work that we're doing instead of spitting out arbitrary numbers and I think we're almost there. If you don't want to give us the numbers because you are afraid of your effectiveness as a whole being judged by the community then just say so. All of that information will be really useful to us in doing what we want, judging the effectiveness of you and your team. If you don't think you should be held to any sort of critique of your effectiveness by the community then we disagree. Remember, you care about this issue, but so do we. You tell us you know what you are doing, and that you are making progress, and all we are looking for is solid progress, not 'creative ways to deliver information'. Don't hide behind market-ease and management-speak, show us numbers, they don't lie.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.04.28 18:21:00 - [2414] Quote: I'm sure you're not so naive as to think that the owners of a given bit of space don't generally know full well who bots there, still less that you're foolish enough to believe that an NPC corp bot can't be connected with the alliance that controls the space it's botting in. Given that, by definition, a banned bot account is one that CCP themselves agree is guilty of botting, what's wrong in principle with players taking in-game action against space-holders who encourage or tolerate botting in their space? It seems like as good a reason as any to fight, and better than most. While in many cases and alliance will know exactly who is botting in there space, in just as many cases a typical ratting bot will be there in spite of the wishes of the space holding alliance. When they react the moment someone enters system, it is difficult in the extreme to effectively push them out of your space. So you have just proven his point. If a large number of bots are shown to operate in a given alliances space most people assume they must own the bots or have an agreement with them. Very, very often this is not the case, and the sov holders end up with a bad rep for no good reason. Quote: EVE is getting a bad name because many think CCP flat out lies about the bot issue, saying you are anti-bot but really doing nothing because the botters pay for subscriptions. Just saying that is not the case is insufficient. You got to be able to prove it beyond any reasonable doubt. Anything less and eve will continue to have a bad name, costing CCP new subscribers. Citation needed. Judging by the commentary on a number of gaming sites CCP is well respected in the gaming community, and always has been. Quote: Don't hide behind market-ease and management-speak, show us numbers, they don't lie. Actually numbers can and do lie all the time. You can make numbers mean pretty much whatever you want them to mean, particularly if the parameters that define those numbers are nebulous or arbitrary. Did you know that 68% of all people that die regularly eat celery? Did you know that 100% of all people that eat celery die? Unless we/CCP can find RELEVANT numbers to measure against, any numbers they put out will be meaningless. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.04.28 18:31:00 - [2415] Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: I'm sure you're not so naive as to think that the owners of a given bit of space don't generally know full well who bots there, still less that you're foolish enough to believe that an NPC corp bot can't be connected with the alliance that controls the space it's botting in. Given that, by definition, a banned bot account is one that CCP themselves agree is guilty of botting, what's wrong in principle with players taking in-game action against space-holders who encourage or tolerate botting in their space? It seems like as good a reason as any to fight, and better than most. While in many cases and alliance will know exactly who is botting in there space, in just as many cases a typical ratting bot will be there in spite of the wishes of the space holding alliance. When they react the moment someone enters system, it is difficult in the extreme to effectively push them out of your space. It's not that difficult; use the space and the bot will move elsewhere. Notice that I said "encourage or tolerate". Of course, given your alliance's close links to an alliance that was recently outed as encouraging botting on their forums, I can see why you'd be unenthusiastic about this. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Ranger 1 Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.04.28 18:57:00 - [2416] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: I'm sure you're not so naive as to think that the owners of a given bit of space don't generally know full well who bots there, still less that you're foolish enough to believe that an NPC corp bot can't be connected with the alliance that controls the space it's botting in. Given that, by definition, a banned bot account is one that CCP themselves agree is guilty of botting, what's wrong in principle with players taking in-game action against space-holders who encourage or tolerate botting in their space? It seems like as good a reason as any to fight, and better than most. While in many cases and alliance will know exactly who is botting in there space, in just as many cases a typical ratting bot will be there in spite of the wishes of the space holding alliance. When they react the moment someone enters system, it is difficult in the extreme to effectively push them out of your space. It's not that difficult; use the space and the bot will move elsewhere. Notice that I said "encourage or tolerate". Of course, given your alliance's close links to an alliance that was recently outed as encouraging botting on their forums, I can see why you'd be unenthusiastic about this. You know as well as I do that there are many corners of EVERY alliances space that see little if any traffic. Malcanis, you should know me by now. Few people on this board are as outspoken as I encouraging anti-botting initiatives, and I have never filtered my responses on ANY topic to reflect my alliance/allies point of view. My flaws are many and varied, including being abrasive and often overly blunt, but sugar coating an issue to further a point of view I do not believe in 100% isn't one of them. My point of view on this particular point actually stems from my time in NC back when Fluf was running the show. He detested bot users with a passion, and encouraged every effort be made to force them out of our occupied space one way or another. We had many successes... but frankly, unless they screw up, it's pretty difficult actually force one out. Although it may sound like an alliance leader can easily force a member to keep an alt tied up 23/7 sitting in system for weeks to "encourage" the bot to move on, in practice many prefer to make that kind of activity voluntary out of a sense of fairness to their fellow alliance members. You, of all people, should know that statistics like that would not accurately tell the tale. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
nakinto	Posted - 2011.04.28 19:32:00 - [2417] some of you dont seem to get it. CCP would MUCH prefer to catch 5000 people cheating all at once and ban them all all at once then to catch one person ban him have the bot creators change there bot so CCP has to go through all kinds of work to cath ONE more botter, etc etc. IMHO they are doing a bang up job at managing there anti cheater programs. I watch the isk farmers prices and every time CCP does a mass ban the prices sky rocket some times tripling in price and this is evident proof enough for me that the farmers that are using bots are being banned and they are the only ones I REALLY care about being banned as the isk farmers are what inflates the economy of a game and makes the products that i sell decrease in value as a result (industrialist T3 pilot)
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.04.28 19:46:00 - [2418] Originally by: Xelena Shellar ...show us numbers, they don't lie. But, the numbers themselves might be a lie. We seem to be stuck here. Sreegs insists they are making progress and that some kind of reporting is hoped to be made at some point in the future. He admits that name and shame is not policy, but they are "considering" everything. Perhaps the reporting would contain numbers, statistics, but even there Sreegs is hesitant, even noncommittal. A contingent here feels that the ONLY way to go is verifiable information. Another would be satisfied with information that is unverifiable. CCP, through Sreegs, doesn't seem to want to provide either. I believe Sreegs has been given an impossible PR task by CCP. I believe he is doing his best. I believe the only thing CCP is actually doing is attempting to placate the community. I will not be placated. To borrow a phrase, NAMES or it didn't happen.
Landlady	Posted - 2011.04.28 20:10:00 - [2419] Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: Xelena Shellar ...show us numbers, they don't lie. But, the numbers themselves might be a lie. ... To borrow a phrase, NAMES or it didn't happen. They own the database, they could easily insert 5000 characters with realistic-looking faction standings/creation date/corp history/etc and then 'ban' them all, and supply the names, to inflate their name list. If you aren't happy with numbers, then names won't help you either. If you think they would directly LIE to you, then there is no level of proof that is possible. If you instead assume they will use any sort of smooth words/management speak to obfuscate the data without actually lying(as I feel, since he straight-up admitted that they are working on this atm) then numbers would be fine.
Xylengra	Posted - 2011.04.28 21:00:00 - [2420] Originally by: Landlady They own the database, they could easily insert 5000 characters with realistic-looking faction standings/creation date/corp history/etc and then 'ban' them all, and supply the names, to inflate their name list. If you aren't happy with numbers, then names won't help you either. If you think they would directly LIE to you, then there is no level of proof that is possible. If you instead assume they will use any sort of smooth words/management speak to obfuscate the data without actually lying(as I feel, since he straight-up admitted that they are working on this atm) then numbers would be fine. Well, no. If they supply real names, then some pilot somewhere will have seen that character and will know that they never again log in. If they supply fake names, no pilot will have ever seen them. Names, simply are MORE verifiable than mere numbers, which are completely UNverifiable. Could there be some trickiness inserted in either? Sure, but the fact remains that names are more trustworthy. It is not up to us, the players, to work to prove CCP is trustworthy. It is up to CCP to prove their trustworthiness to us.

Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.04.29 21:41:00 - [2421] This thread must be on first page...
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.30 21:57:00 - [2422] Ive been doing some more thinking about Name and Shame. It occurred to me that if CCP's intention is to lie to us and make it look like they are doing something, then all they need do is look at those who have quit eve, pick some who also have no kills, "accidentally" delete their accounts (so they cannot come back) and list them as people they have perma-banned. How would we know? We would have to take it on faith that those on the list were botting, and take it on faith that the reason we no longer see them on line is they were banned. To verify a list of banned botters we would have to have independently found them botting and then track their on line time. But we can do that without a list from CCP. So I am seeing less and less of a need for a list of names from CCP. Better they spend their time banning botters than preparing lists for us.
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.04.30 22:30:00 - [2423] Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 30/04/2011 22:34:08 OK... what is this??? Wrongly accused of using a macro Originally by: Master Slave Slave Two of my housholds accounts have been unfairly banned for three days for use of a macro Which is just not true.... (more stuff) ... ONLY 3 DAY BAN FOR BOTTING??? and thats new post... Posted - 2011.04.30 21:40:00 _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Dealth Striker	Posted - 2011.05.01 06:22:00 - [2424] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 30/04/2011 22:34:08 OK... what is this??? Wrongly accused of using a macro Originally by: Master Slave Slave Two of my housholds accounts have been unfairly banned for three days for use of a macro Which is just not true.... (more stuff) ... ONLY 3 DAY BAN FOR BOTTING??? and thats new post... Posted - 2011.04.30 21:40:00 Maybe u should read the whole thread before making that comment --------------------- Communication is Key!
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.01 06:58:00 - [2425] Yeah that thread is clearly a topic by a bot who is trying to spin it. Come on it is classical: think of the children, and someone is very ill and eve was the only thing in his life, oh and they uninstalled eve anyway yet. It isnt even close to believable that it wasnt a botter. So apparently they are back to three day bans, CCP is trying hard to find a good middle line between keeping the general playerbase happy that they are doing something against botting, without actually stopping people from botting.
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.05.01 15:43:00 - [2426] Originally by: Furb Killer Yeah that thread is clearly a topic by a bot who is trying to spin it. Come on it is classical: think of the children, and someone is very ill and eve was the only thing in his life, oh and they uninstalled eve anyway yet. It isnt even close to believable that it wasnt a botter. So apparently they are back to three day bans, CCP is trying hard to find a good middle line between keeping the general playerbase happy that they are doing something against botting, without actually stopping people from botting. I only hope that thats not true...
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.02 19:33:00 - [2427] Any progress here???
Mikel Laurentson	Posted - 2011.05.02 23:41:00 - [2428] Originally by: CCP Sreegs The amount of isk I'm also a bit concerned about as it's really just a number. It's not just a number, any more than the amount of ******* seized by border control is. It'll have an impact on the economy, and it'll give the amateur economists in the audience a bit of data to work with. I assume the good doctor is already asking you about this, to be honest. Any chance we could see 'ISK removed by GMs' as an ISK sink in the next QEN? :D
Richard Aiel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.05.03 00:57:00 - [2429] Originally by: Xylengra Originally by: Xelena Shellar ...show us numbers, they don't lie. But, the numbers themselves might be a lie. We seem to be stuck here. Sreegs insists they are making progress and that some kind of reporting is hoped to be made at some point in the future. He admits that name and shame is not policy, but they are "considering" everything. Perhaps the reporting would contain numbers, statistics, but even there Sreegs is hesitant, even noncommittal. A contingent here feels that the ONLY way to go is verifiable information. Another would be satisfied with information that is unverifiable. CCP, through Sreegs, doesn't seem to want to provide either. I believe Sreegs has been given an impossible PR task by CCP. I believe he is doing his best. I believe the only thing CCP is actually doing is attempting to placate the community. I will not be placated. To borrow a phrase, NAMES or it didn't happen. It comes down to trust CCP or dont. They will NEVER post numbers or names or anything. Im voting with my wallet, you wont see me posting again after 5/21/11 as thats when my sub runs out and I wont be back. For the "yeah lots of ppl say that" people remember the date if you think Im lying lol ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
Amber Accelerando	Posted - 2011.05.03 02:34:00 - [2430] i don't see how CCP releasing numbers could be a bad thing, unless those numbers are extremely low & reflect a cultural complacency withing the Company towards Macro gaming.

Richard Aiel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.05.03 05:02:00 - [2431] Originally by: Amber Accelerando i don't see how CCP releasing numbers could be a bad thing, unless those numbers are extremely low & reflect a cultural complacency withing the Company towards Macro gaming. really cant be any worse than their history of this has been so far. ----------------------------------------- If you dont learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469262&page=2#51
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.05.04 15:30:00 - [2432] CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort?
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.05.04 18:02:00 - [2433] Originally by: Richard Aiel It comes down to trust CCP or dont. They will NEVER post numbers or names or anything. Im voting with my wallet, you wont see me posting again after 5/21/11 as thats when my sub runs out and I wont be back. For the "yeah lots of ppl say that" people remember the date if you think Im lying lol Can I has your stuff?
Hectanooga	Posted - 2011.05.04 18:24:00 - [2434] Originally by: Richard Aiel It comes down to trust CCP or dont. They will NEVER post numbers or names or anything. Im voting with my wallet, you wont see me posting again after 5/21/11 as thats when my sub runs out and I wont be back. For the "yeah lots of ppl say that" people remember the date if you think Im lying lol I see what you did there... are you the annoying person that keeps dropping those "warning" cans all over gates? Teh endz0rz!
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.05.04 19:15:00 - [2435] Originally by: Richard Aiel It comes down to trust CCP or dont. They will NEVER post numbers or names or anything. Im voting with my wallet, you wont see me posting again after 5/21/11 as thats when my sub runs out and I wont be back. For the "yeah lots of ppl say that" people remember the date if you think Im lying lol I'm still looking for the place where we're supposed to care. Silly eThreats mean nothing.
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.05.05 17:21:00 - [2436] Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort? _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Paul Mustaka Hekard	Posted - 2011.05.06 15:24:00 - [2437] Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort?
Aurum Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.07 11:38:00 - [2438] CCP is not interested in banning. EVE becomes boring. I will not pay for a game anymore. I can play with bots free of charge in X2 or X3.
Caldari Acolyte	Posted - 2011.05.07 13:32:00 - [2439] Look, other gaming companies have delt with BOTS swiftly. This company has nothing but excuses, draw your own conclusions, nothing complicated about it.
Speaker4 theDead	Posted - 2011.05.07 14:08:00 - [2440] Originally by: Caldari Acolyte Look, other gaming companies have delt with BOTS swiftly. This company has nothing but excuses, draw your own conclusions, nothing complicated about it. You really have no clue do you? Botting has going on in games since the advent of the Internet. And no matter what any game company claims, they can't stop them or get rid of them without ruining their own game. In fact, I would bet if CCP were actually able to remove all the bots from the game, they'd be out of business in a year... So get over yourself and go outside for a change, it's affecting your judgement.

Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.05.07 14:36:00 - [2441] Originally by: Caldari Acolyte Look, other gaming companies have delt with BOTS swiftly. This company has nothing but excuses, draw your own conclusions, nothing complicated about it. there is NO other gaming company that has been able to remove bots. instead they simply put spyware on you're comp and continue to fail at stopping botting and RMT... WoW is the best example here. botting scripts are a lot like computer viruses - invent an antivirus and a new version of the virus is made.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.07 20:09:00 - [2442] So lets then go for the CCP approach, remove all your firewalls, antivirus products, and start using IE6 on an unupdated windows 95, since a virusscanner also isnt perfect
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2011.05.07 21:04:00 - [2443] Originally by: Speaker4 theDead You really have no clue do you? Originally by: Speaker4 theDead they can't stop them or get rid of them without ruining their own game. not true, but you aren't providing any arguments or examples so you aren't really looking for a debate. You are just insulting somebody who wants a bot free game. weather he is naive in his thinking is irrelevant, the fact remains, that makes you a troll. Originally by: Speaker4 theDead In fact, I would bet if CCP were actually able to remove all the bots from the game, they'd be out of business in a year... oh please sir, do elaborate Originally by: Speaker4 theDead So get over yourself and go outside for a change, it's affecting your judgement. well I cant really argue with that, its good advice...you should probably listen to it Originally by: Arnakoz there is NO other gaming company that has been able to remove bots. I don't think he meant complete removal. I think we all know that is not possible, but we don't realle need complete removal do we? Originally by: Arnakoz instead they simply put spyware on you're comp well not that simple actually, there was a lawsuit, and the whole controversial question of ownership of a running program on your ram. Turns out its not yours...but we are getting a bit off topic here. Originally by: Arnakoz continue to fail at stopping botting and RMT... Again, don't need to stop it, we just want to slow it down to where it is no longer effective Originally by: Arnakoz WoW is the best example here. Again, I am not sure you can argue this. Do you know what wow would look like if no actions at all were taken against botting? I mean I remember playing linage II on a private server ages ago and there it was normal for everyone to have healer bots. You would rarely see someone running around without another character running behind him healing him and buffing him. If Blizzard hadn't made its stance on botting clear and if they hadn't developed what you refer to as useless spyware perhaps wow would today look like that as well? Originally by: Arnakoz botting scripts are a lot like computer viruses - invent an antivirus and a new version of the virus is made. Well that is actually true...somewhat. See there is no cost if a virus gets caught. Whomever made it simply makes a new one. However if a bot gets caught, and you ban the user, he has to pay the cost. That of the subscription and that of his character. And if that is a hulk running character or a battleship flying character, that costs quite a few subscription months of training. And while CCP is incompetent, other companies don't ban players when a new iteration of a bot comes out. They wait for the bot to become widespread, and then do a mass ban. So as a company you can go to all the bot websites, and buy all the widespread bots. Study them, find patterns, and write software that will detect them. And then you do a mass ban. And you don't have to make it perfect, you don't have to find each and every bot. You just need to find the ones that are publicly available for purchase and ban those using them. And I agree with you. We will probably never get all of them, but if we shut down 90%, would that really be so bad? NO on microtransactions!
Arnakoz	Posted - 2011.05.07 22:02:00 - [2444] Originally by: Ak'athra J'ador [...]We will probably never get all of them, but if we shut down 90%, would that really be so bad? i think you are talking more about individuals' bots rather than RMT bots. yeah, its not hard to limit the amount of individuals running bots. from where i stand all gaming companies have been wholly unable to limit RMT over the long run. just some dips here and there. but, yes, focusing on the players couldn't hurt. it may or may not end with more demand for RMT... but that's a separate issue really.
Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.05.09 08:13:00 - [2445] Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort?
Kuseka Adama Gallente Northstar Cabal	Posted - 2011.05.09 13:16:00 - [2446] Originally by: Aquila Draco Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort? If it doesn't include a direct hit on the Russian Aspect of this situation it doesn't matter. I was hoping for a wipe of null sec and a cataclysm of capitals when BoB was in charge. Now that i return i find myself hoping for another wipe of null sec but this time a cataclysm of Both caps and super caps... Taking names and kicking ass. All in the search for Bubblegum.
Mikk36 Caldari	Posted - 2011.05.10 08:30:00 - [2447] RMT by itself isn't that bad, currently it's that bad because the ISK comes from endless pits, not legitimate sources.
Xtreem Gallente Fire Mandrill	Posted - 2011.05.10 08:47:00 - [2448] I just want a blog telling us some decent info tbh how many were banned for 14 days how many came back and did not bot how many came back and did bot how many that did come back and bot got re banned? how much isk was taken out the game how much assets were taken out of game just usefull stuff... failing that CCP need to hire me to get some **** rolling!
Virtue Maulerant	Posted - 2011.05.10 09:11:00 - [2449] ******** is full of botters.Stupid **s deserve what they are getting.
Angel Fudge	Posted - 2011.05.10 09:16:00 - [2450] Are botters still only getting banned for 3 days for the first offense or was the right thing done and they changed it?

Xtreem Gallente Fire Mandrill	Posted - 2011.05.10 09:23:00 - [2451] Originally by: Angel Fudge Are botters still only getting banned for 3 days for the first offense or was the right thing done and they changed it? 14 days for 95% of them according to the botting forums
Mikk36 Caldari	Posted - 2011.05.10 09:23:00 - [2452] Quote: PublicDemands For Sale www.publicdemands.co.uk domain is for sale, for anyone who wants to carry on the eve bot legacy. Othran, good work :)
Wayne Slob Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.05.10 11:12:00 - [2453] Originally by: Xtreem I just want a blog telling us some decent info tbh how many were banned for 14 days how many came back and did not bot how many came back and did bot how many that did come back and bot got re banned? how much isk was taken out the game how much assets were taken out of game just usefull stuff... failing that CCP need to hire me to get some **** rolling! This would indeed be interesting information.
Gallion Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:17:00 - [2454] To everything wrong with this post in general its pratically TRolling. you want this stuff to stop then do something about it, your playing this game cause you have some "Care" for it. Find a Botting Program online? Copy it and find a means to complain about it theirs stuff around this site's EULA and TOS that "could potentially be used to shut the site down" -but I cant say how as Im not entirely sure its like a Police/FEDs thing to do. (and all these programs have ways of Cancelling their effect in the game) Found a Site for RMT? report it to CCP perhaps they can find a list of players in-game related to the Site(webmasters)? Im not sure My Idea's are getting thru here, but my Point is Help the situation Dont Burden it further.
Xtreem Gallente Fire Mandrill	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:54:00 - [2455] it would not be hard to flush out alot of bot users, 100's and very quickly, which would cause enough distrust between botters to stop or at least make it very hard to continue care free.
Feky Deji	Posted - 2011.05.10 19:39:00 - [2456] Edited by: Feky Deji on 10/05/2011 19:40:04 Time to make some White Noise about RMT: http://soundcloud.com/miah-1-1/state-of-the-goonian-10-may
Eolithic WithaTwist Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2011.05.10 20:52:00 - [2457] For the love of New Eden please stop feeding the trolls. ------------------------------------------- La Mano Arriba, Cintura Sola, Da Media Vuelta, Danza Kuduro! No Te Canses Ahora, Que Esto S=lo Empieza, Mueve La Cabeza, Danza Kuduro!
Grath Telkin Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.05.10 21:04:00 - [2458] Originally by: Feky Deji Edited by: Feky Deji on 10/05/2011 19:40:04 Time to make some White Noise about RMT: http://soundcloud.com/miah-1-1/state-of-the-goonian-10-may With the rampant use of Innerspace by Goons there is no way anybody can take this seriously. They bot as much or more (they have detailed botting instructions available) than anybody else so they should probably sit back down.
Heroltior Ghedonia	Posted - 2011.05.12 07:43:00 - [2459] Edited by: Heroltior Ghedonia on 12/05/2011 07:46:08 But but but... Who else would the HAG gankers feed on then? I enjoy the many kills posted about Bots getting destroyed for the sake of explody and reward for such. Seriously, if this is to be dealt with. Then it should be up to the REAL players of Eve to handle it... just as we do with other issues. More HAG tournaments with specific goals, restrictions to how and where bots are found/destroyed. Eventually, the botters will get the message that we don't like their kind in our space and will be dealt with by our own flavor of justice.... ganking!
Captain Stroke Slaganfall Flytt AB	Posted - 2011.05.12 08:39:00 - [2460] Originally by: Feky Deji Edited by: Feky Deji on 10/05/2011 19:40:04 Time to make some White Noise about RMT: http://soundcloud.com/miah-1-1/state-of-the-goonian-10-may White noise sat on massive amounts of tech moons in venal and mittens now claim that the isk came out of nowhere as they started buying supercaps? I guess simple grunts are too dumb to understand what a massive income tech moons can be and how much you actually can buy with it if you don't RMT it all away. White noise probably bot as much as everybody else but I would hardly call their super cap surge as evidence of massive botting or RMT'ing on their part, rather as something which underlines how much you can actually do off of moon mining if you actually use the income in-game. It rather raises the suspicion of what the other alliances sitting on tech moons are doing with the income.

Caldari Acolyte	Posted - 2011.05.12 08:52:00 - [2461] Originally by: Speaker4 theDead Originally by: Caldari Acolyte Look, other gaming companies have delt with BOTS swiftly. This company has nothing but excuses, draw your own conclusions, nothing complicated about it. You really have no clue do you? Botting has going on in games since the advent of the Internet. And no matter what any game company claims, they can't stop them or get rid of them without ruining their own game. In fact, I would bet if CCP were actually able to remove all the bots from the game, they'd be out of business in a year... So get over yourself and go outside for a change, it's affecting your judgement. Your an obvious Bot fan and it is you that is clueless because companies have delt with them, so get your facts straight numbnuts.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.05.12 10:18:00 - [2462] Originally by: Elanor Vega Originally by: Furb Killer Yeah that thread is clearly a topic by a bot who is trying to spin it. Come on it is classical: think of the children, and someone is very ill and eve was the only thing in his life, oh and they uninstalled eve anyway yet. It isnt even close to believable that it wasnt a botter. So apparently they are back to three day bans, CCP is trying hard to find a good middle line between keeping the general playerbase happy that they are doing something against botting, without actually stopping people from botting. I only hope that thats not true... It's not.


CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.05.12 10:20:00 - [2463] Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort? I'm putting out a blog in the next week.

Elzon1 Caldari Shadow Boys Corp White Angels.	Posted - 2011.05.12 11:44:00 - [2464] Edited by: Elzon1 on 12/05/2011 11:44:51 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort? I'm putting out a blog in the next week. Good to hear Will there be actual stats or is it just "We're Winning" Is there going to be anything in there about the "report bot" feature talked about during fanfest I don't know where, I don't know when... but something awful is going to happen xD
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.05.12 15:57:00 - [2465] so much threads on botting subject... ppl cant stand bots any more... only on first page of EVE General Discussion forum: 80 BOTS Detected in Jita area - names, corps, activities listed 62 npc corp ice miners, from the same operation - BUSTED! Reporting from the front line of the Bot-War So there are 2 chances for botters to keep in game? and this one...
Sirius Cassiopeiae	Posted - 2011.05.14 13:39:00 - [2466] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Elanor Vega Originally by: Furb Killer Yeah that thread is clearly a topic by a bot who is trying to spin it. Come on it is classical: think of the children, and someone is very ill and eve was the only thing in his life, oh and they uninstalled eve anyway yet. It isnt even close to believable that it wasnt a botter. So apparently they are back to three day bans, CCP is trying hard to find a good middle line between keeping the general playerbase happy that they are doing something against botting, without actually stopping people from botting. I only hope that thats not true... It's not. thnx on that...

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.05.14 13:49:00 - [2467] Originally by: Elanor Vega Edited by: Elanor Vega on 12/05/2011 16:22:48 so much threads on botting subject... ppl cant stand bots any more... only on first page of EVE General Discussion forum: 80 BOTS Detected in Jita area - names, corps, activities listed 62 npc corp ice miners, from the same operation - BUSTED! Reporting from the front line of the Bot-War So there are 2 chances for botters to keep in game? Disband Alliances which use Macros/Botters and this one... If that trend continues we're going to have to consolidate. Trying to keep up with 8 threads on the exact same topic is pretty ponderous. Pretty much all of them are the exact same content.

Tyberious Rex Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.20 18:57:00 - [2468] Move back to the top page since this is the main bot thread
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.05.20 20:22:00 - [2469] Hey guys, Today, a group of us tracked down and ganked some botters. We only got two, and there where only 4 of us. But I'm hoping this will be the start of player justice in eve. I'm sure you're all asking, how do we know it was a bot account? Well, there are several tells. I don't wanna give away all my secrets, I know bot users read this thread and I don't want to give them a tip of my tactics. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13323349 http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13323623 If you're truly fed up, and want to make a difference, contact me. If you can help gank, fund, scout, or watch. Please do. I'm not asking for a full time commitment, I'm asking everyone who reads this to do a little. If a thousand people do a little, it will = alot. I also received more donations for this today. The people (again) have asked to remain anonymous, so you know who you are. I speak for everyone when I say "Thank you!" Don't let this be the only time we as the players fight the hoard of the bot infestation.
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.20 20:28:00 - [2470] Very nice Ninja and crew! Kudos for the efforts. I may join some time soon...I'll contact you when I have some time. ~Gnosis~

serenity Galltaki	Posted - 2011.05.20 20:52:00 - [2471] Originally by: Arnakoz Originally by: Caldari Acolyte Look, other gaming companies have delt with BOTS swiftly. This company has nothing but excuses, draw your own conclusions, nothing complicated about it. there is NO other gaming company that has been able to remove bots. instead they simply put spyware on you're comp and continue to fail at stopping botting and RMT... WoW is the best example here. botting scripts are a lot like computer viruses - invent an antivirus and a new version of the virus is made. somehow I think putting hidden spyware on personal computers is illegal, particularly under EU law: if ccp is doing something like this covertly, then I hope their lawyers are well rested
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.05.20 22:33:00 - [2472] Originally by: NinjaSpud Hey guys, Today, a group of us ganked some botters. So all these pages, all these threads, and you're ganking in hisec? Hasn't it been established that the rmt'ers are in null?
Renturu	Posted - 2011.05.21 02:46:00 - [2473] If anyone needs ships, I will speak with my CEO and see what we can throw your way. We are in Oppold as well as Goram (Primary).
The Huffarunier Gallente The Real OC	Posted - 2011.05.21 03:27:00 - [2474] Originally by: Renturu If anyone needs ships, I will speak with my CEO and see what we can throw your way. We are in Oppold as well as Goram (Primary). Goram has more bots that you can shack a stick at. If you can send any ISK to support my efforts there that would be appreciated.
Heroltior Ghedonia	Posted - 2011.05.21 04:01:00 - [2475] Edited by: Heroltior Ghedonia on 21/05/2011 04:01:30 Edited by: Heroltior Ghedonia on 21/05/2011 04:01:18 Originally by: The Huffarunier Originally by: Renturu If anyone needs ships, I will speak with my CEO and see what we can throw your way. We are in Oppold as well as Goram (Primary). Goram has more bots that you can shack a stick at. If you can send any ISK to support my efforts there that would be appreciated. Will speak with my CEO in a day or so to get going. Here's an odd question... when you kill them, can I have THEIR stuff? Hehe Note: this is alt of Renturu
Whispering Monk	Posted - 2011.05.21 11:42:00 - [2476] lol. They bring in at least a few 1000's euros a month. Good luck with getting them banned. CCP have turned into a bunch of greedy cnuts.
Billy Ikkala	Posted - 2011.05.21 14:27:00 - [2477] Originally by: Whispering Monk lol. They bring in at least a few 1000's euros a month. Good luck with getting them banned. CCP have turned into a bunch of greedy cnuts. i truly loled.
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.22 09:26:00 - [2478] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort? I'm putting out a blog in the next week. week is over... can i ask what is ETA of that blog?
Paul Morphinus	Posted - 2011.05.22 13:51:00 - [2479] ETA on blog SoonTM. Same schedule as the original blog that was promised after fanfest. Could be wrong, but I don't expect CCP will be too forthcoming or transparent with information. Just business as usual for them, I guess.
Mikk36 Caldari	Posted - 2011.05.22 23:19:00 - [2480] Edited by: Mikk36 on 22/05/2011 23:19:25 Originally by: Severian Carnifex Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort? I'm putting out a blog in the next week. week is over... can i ask what is ETA of that blog? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1512238 Originally by: Live Dev Blog on Customer Support and Security, May 26, 22:00 UTC Your host for the event will be the silver-tongued CCP Soundwave, and to discuss the topics of Customer Support and Security we will have two veteran Senior Game Masters, GM Nova and GM Nythanos *along with our Senior Security Administrator, CCP Sreegs.*

admaril bluebeard	Posted - 2011.05.22 23:46:00 - [2481] well i only heard of boting the other day, and did not even realise they had such a thing, but as to spending hours and hours in for me this is a really were i get to work long hours. out there mining building my corp, as i am disabled in the real! world broken back!! can still walk but not for long, and since i found eve it has been a comtpable realese it makes me fell like i still exist, as here im equal but i also run muliple accounts and many times i have been asked to i macro mine. but i do mine with all 8 of my toons yes, but as for bots well i think its unfair to the players like me. who do come in to do hard time, as i cant work as take big pain killers to help me copewith pain. i my corp has grown over time, and i sit here or in bed mostly in bed emptying out my hulls to my orca every hour im only making 15 mill an hour, but once all toons get to hulks then it will be cool just got enough for the next hulk and i am going to make this one. but remamebr there are so of us out there that have many accounts and play! not bot !!!!! so when you are about to hulkagedon just give me time to get mine back to base as i hate loseing my drones as sacrafice
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.05.24 18:17:00 - [2482] I hope the live dev blog will be supplemented by an actual dev blog post, and that the audio of the live dev blog will be made available for download at a later time. I also hope the content of the live dev blog addresses many things that have been asked in this topic numerous times.
Camalll	Posted - 2011.05.24 18:23:00 - [2483] If you want to do something against bots: JOIN "BOT GRIEF" Channel!

CCP Zymurgist Gallente C C P	Posted - 2011.05.24 20:03:00 - [2484] Originally by: Slate Shoa I hope the live dev blog will be supplemented by an actual dev blog post, and that the audio of the live dev blog will be made available for download at a later time. I also hope the content of the live dev blog addresses many things that have been asked in this topic numerous times. I like these ideas. I can't make it to the live dev blog to listen myself but would love to hear what is being said and will pass this along to CCP Guard. Zymurgist Community Representative CCP NA, EVE Online Contact Us

Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.30 16:37:00 - [2485] I have been asking ppl i know do they see any progress on this subject... and all of them answered me negative... on the start of this war there was some changes and ppl saw progress... and prices of ore were showing that there is something going on... but now its all like before... i am concerned about all of this... so I ask you for yours opinion on this "war" and its progress...
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.05.30 17:49:00 - [2486] Is there a link to download a recording of the live dev blog yet?
Speaker4 theDead	Posted - 2011.05.30 18:11:00 - [2487] The war is over, you lost. Move on and start worrying about something important. Same thing we've been saying to the Goverment for years about the war on drugs. You can't stop it, you can't control it. Get over it and spend your money somewhere else.
Speaker4 theDead	Posted - 2011.05.30 18:14:00 - [2488] Edited by: Speaker4 theDead on 30/05/2011 18:14:55 Fine job CCP, you can't even make the forums work right....
Henry Haphorn Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.30 20:18:00 - [2489] Originally by: Speaker4 theDead The war is over, you lost. The war will not be over until we say so. If you think that the war is over, you are sadly mistaken. Anyways, in regards to nullsec bots, those are handled a bit differently since the rules of empire space don't apply there. Usually, a nice little afk cloaker is enough to hinder the operations of the system they are in. Thus causing the ratting bots to hide behind cloaks in safe spots (which means less income) or delaying the operations of mining bots as they safe up in a POS. If you can kill the nullsec bots, even better. The problem with nullsec is that it's closely monitored by the power blocks through their intel channels. If a ganking fleet is spotted on the entrance gate, the local alliance will be alerted and then we will have to engage a whole fleet of Drakes or Abaddons just to get to the bots. This is why it's more effective to simply send in a single cloakie because every alliance is not gonna waste their time and resources sending in an entire fleet chasing a measly cloak ship in the middle of nullsec space.
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.05.30 23:55:00 - [2490] Originally by: Slate Shoa Is there a link to download a recording of the live dev blog yet? Found the link in some other thread... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y311KSwESss

riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.05.31 03:02:00 - [2491] Originally by: NinjaSpud Hey guys, Today, a group of us tracked down and ganked some botters. We only got two, and there where only 4 of us. But I'm hoping this will be the start of player justice in eve. I'm sure you're all asking, how do we know it was a bot account? Well, there are several tells. I don't wanna give away all my secrets, I know bot users read this thread and I don't want to give them a tip of my tactics. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13323349 http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13323623 If you're truly fed up, and want to make a difference, contact me. If you can help gank, fund, scout, or watch. Please do. I'm not asking for a full time commitment, I'm asking everyone who reads this to do a little. If a thousand people do a little, it will = alot. I also received more donations for this today. The people (again) have asked to remain anonymous, so you know who you are. I speak for everyone when I say "Thank you!" Don't let this be the only time we as the players fight the hoard of the bot infestation. Impressive, did u guys petitioned them?
Corina's Bodyguard	Posted - 2011.05.31 03:55:00 - [2492] Originally by: riverini Originally by: NinjaSpud Hey guys, Today, a group of us tracked down and ganked some botters. We only got two, and there where only 4 of us. But I'm hoping this will be the start of player justice in eve. I'm sure you're all asking, how do we know it was a bot account? Well, there are several tells. I don't wanna give away all my secrets, I know bot users read this thread and I don't want to give them a tip of my tactics. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13323349 http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13323623 If you're truly fed up, and want to make a difference, contact me. If you can help gank, fund, scout, or watch. Please do. I'm not asking for a full time commitment, I'm asking everyone who reads this to do a little. If a thousand people do a little, it will = alot. I also received more donations for this today. The people (again) have asked to remain anonymous, so you know who you are. I speak for everyone when I say "Thank you!" Don't let this be the only time we as the players fight the hoard of the bot infestation. Impressive, did u guys petitioned them? Yes, we always either petition or send an email to Sreegs.
Mr Stark	Posted - 2011.05.31 10:29:00 - [2493] It isnt just RMT either, the fact that you cant beat the botting nation in a fair fight becasue they produce enough minerals to build 2 to 3 supercaps a day kind of makes the whole 0.0 situation a completely pointless and boll***s affair. Why bother with 0.0 when you really cant win by playing fair?
Riley Moore Sentinum Research	Posted - 2011.05.31 10:35:00 - [2494] Originally by: Speaker4 theDead The war is over, you lost. Viva la revolution! --- Sentinum Research Store
Lexxxii	Posted - 2011.05.31 13:23:00 - [2495] Easy way to remove 90% of the bots: 1. Ban half the DRF 2. Ban the other half Job done There may be some collateral damage but what the hell. Originally by: Speaker4 theDead The war is over, you lost.
Khavi Kitamatsu	Posted - 2011.05.31 14:48:00 - [2496] It is sad that this is still such a major issue. Botter's are ruining the economy. Players that play by the rules I guess mean nothing to CCP.
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.05.31 18:11:00 - [2497] Originally by: Mr Stark It isnt just RMT either, the fact that you cant beat the botting nation in a fair fight becasue they produce enough minerals to build 2 to 3 supercaps a day kind of makes the whole 0.0 situation a completely pointless and boll***s affair. Why bother with 0.0 when you really cant win by playing fair? signed... its sad situation for indy ppl all around the game and all non botting 0.0 ppl...
Stormchyld Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.31 18:51:00 - [2498] +1 ... very cool.... certainly in support of this.
Sue Shee	Posted - 2011.05.31 19:25:00 - [2499] A lot of the botters i have noticed tend to focus on ice belts. I went to kamio the other day and i saw 140 in local, 90% of them where at the ice belt and the amount of blatent botters i noticed it must have been about 25% bots, just by sitting at the belt watching them warping off and back all the time was unbelievable. The amount of griefers i noticed harassing the jetcan miners made me wonder that bot mining is actually so much more appealing because of this.
Tabbie Te'Jir	Posted - 2011.06.01 16:29:00 - [2500] CCP needs to find a solution. This topic is getting old. Unless of course CCP cares little for people that play their game the way it was meant to be played...present and accounted for at ones keyboard.

Corina's Bodyguard	Posted - 2011.06.01 16:33:00 - [2501] Originally by: Tabbie Te'Jir CCP needs to find a solution. This topic is getting old. Unless of course CCP cares little for people that play their game the way it was meant to be played...present and accounted for at ones keyboard. Currently, the only solution available that doesn't lead to hundreds of false positives is the one they are using. A slow investigative one. I think they are doing a fine job for what they are up against.
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.06.01 16:37:00 - [2502] Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard Originally by: Tabbie Te'Jir CCP needs to find a solution. This topic is getting old. Unless of course CCP cares little for people that play their game the way it was meant to be played...present and accounted for at ones keyboard. Currently, the only solution available that doesn't lead to hundreds of false positives is the one they are using. A slow investigative one. I think they are doing a fine job for what they are up against. 07 to the readers of the original anti bot threadnaught Lets also keep in mind, my intel channel "Bot Grief" has lead to ganking many suspected botters. A few of them even admit it and have been war dec'd. If you wanna help, join us. Enough ****ed off eve players are taking a stand against the botters.
Tabbie Te'Jir	Posted - 2011.06.01 16:42:00 - [2503] Edited by: Tabbie Te''Jir on 01/06/2011 16:42:12 Originally by: NinjaSpud Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard Originally by: Tabbie Te'Jir CCP needs to find a solution. This topic is getting old. Unless of course CCP cares little for people that play their game the way it was meant to be played...present and accounted for at ones keyboard. Currently, the only solution available that doesn't lead to hundreds of false positives is the one they are using. A slow investigative one. I think they are doing a fine job for what they are up against. 07 to the readers of the original anti bot threadnaught Lets also keep in mind, my intel channel "Bot Grief" has lead to ganking many suspected botters. A few of them even admit it and have been war dec'd. If you wanna help, join us. Enough ****ed off eve players are taking a stand against the botters. This issue should not be left up solely for the players to confront. CCP should be more actively participating in finding a solution. As I said earlier, this has been an ongoing issue for years and CCP's investigative measures are not all that effective since botting is at an all time high and more prevalent than ever.
Adelain Niska Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.06.01 21:08:00 - [2504] Originally by: Sue Shee 90% of them where at the ice belt and the amount of blatent botters i noticed it must have been about 25% bots, just by sitting at the belt watching them warping off and back all the time was unbelievable. By what method did you determine who the bots were? Was it just because they were warping back to a station to empty their holds? Was it more than this? Just curious. ---- My reputation is not solid.
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.06.03 10:19:00 - [2505] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort? I'm putting out a blog in the next week. Sorry... but i want to ask one thing: where is that blog on the anti-bot effort? it's 3 weeks passed from quoted post...
Digital Messiah Imperial Combat Logistics Regiment	Posted - 2011.06.03 10:53:00 - [2506] Wouldn't it be a good idea to just start a forum where people post the names of suspected / known botters. If they don't start disappearing we will have our answer. And on top of that could quite easily help this whole situation? Quote: Don't Panic
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.03 11:19:00 - [2507] Originally by: Sue Shee A lot of the botters i have noticed tend to focus on ice belts. I went to kamio the other day and i saw 140 in local, 90% of them where at the ice belt and the amount of blatent botters i noticed it must have been about 25% bots, just by sitting at the belt watching them warping off and back all the time was unbelievable. The amount of griefers i noticed harassing the jetcan miners made me wonder that bot mining is actually so much more appealing because of this. You are wrong, in fact it's the often the opposite. Ice mining is so stupid and long time that a guy needs to warp to belt, press F1 F2, return 20 mins later, dock and unload. Ice mining is GAME botted by mere (lack of) mechanics. Minerals mining instead requires someone to check that the roid did not deplete every 1.5 minutes or so and possibly to use a survey scanner to avoid mining half cycles. Plus lasers charges need to be changed etc. At the same time, the big Hulk cargo hold could make it possible to unload very seldom. This is exactly where the bot gets used. Since the hold is so big but the lasers are annoying, they use a bot to automate it. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Better Than You	Posted - 2011.06.03 11:33:00 - [2508] This game is ruined by botters and RMT. Now they are hiring mercenaries to kick out the real players from the space they busted their as off to build. Why? For more and better space to bot. Great job with the anomaly change CCP. Between your lack of dealing with botters, RMT and the anomaly change, you destroyed the north and ruined this game. What is even more disturbing is to see certain groups who helped the botters take over the north. Players like PL, NCdot and others; You people are soulless bastards. All you are doing is hurting yourselves! - Friendship will always trump the desire to fight!
MMXMMX Caldari Bendebeukers Green Rhino	Posted - 2011.06.03 11:39:00 - [2509] Missile bays load to slow
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.06.03 11:44:00 - [2510] Originally by: Better Than You This game is ruined by botters and RMT. Now they are hiring mercenaries to kick out the real players from the space they busted their as off to build. Why? For more and better space to bot. Great job with the anomaly change CCP. Between your lack of dealing with botters, RMT and the anomaly change, you destroyed the north and ruined this game. What is even more disturbing is to see certain groups who helped the botters take over the north. Players like PL, NCdot and others; You people are soulless bastards. All you are doing is hurting yourselves! Rofl. Not that the DRF dont bot, everyone knows they do, but the inhabitants of Deklein, Branch, Venal and Tenal were almost all members of the .exe family. At best this was a turf war. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.

Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.03 14:16:00 - [2511] Edited by: Severian Carnifex on 03/06/2011 14:21:22 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Better Than You This game is ruined by botters and RMT. Now they are hiring mercenaries to kick out the real players from the space they busted their as off to build. Why? For more and better space to bot. Great job with the anomaly change CCP. Between your lack of dealing with botters, RMT and the anomaly change, you destroyed the north and ruined this game. What is even more disturbing is to see certain groups who helped the botters take over the north. Players like PL, NCdot and others; You people are soulless bastards. All you are doing is hurting yourselves! Rofl. Not that the DRF dont bot, everyone knows they do, but the inhabitants of Deklein, Branch, Venal and Tenal were almost all members of the .exe family. At best this was a turf war. Well... i would LOVE to see that RMT/Botting Gods become little man once again... and how would things be then when every player could be even... and outcome of wars depends only of SP and skills of a real player and not how many Botts => ISK => $$$ that person has... you see... i wrote "wars" not "battles" because battle is nothing when some person have infinite funds to found infinite number of battles... and that war is not a war any more... its genocide of all ppl that don't have infinite funds (read: "all ppl that don't use Botts") .
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.03 21:40:00 - [2512] Originally by: Avila Cracko Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort? I'm putting out a blog in the next week. Sorry... but i want to ask one thing: where is that blog on the anti-bot effort? it's 3 weeks passed from quoted post...
Rens Runner	Posted - 2011.06.03 23:28:00 - [2513] Originally by: Mr Kidd Does anyone here believe that with maximal effort to the extent that CCP could wage war on bots without adversely affecting legit players that we'll be completely bot free? Very seriously my answer would be NO. I suggest that CCP stop fighting the bots. People are botting for isk, because content is just Fing boring, they don't have 30 hours a day to play Eve in a competitive way, the grind is just too Fing long in this game. Don't tell me the grind isn't too long. I live in a wh. On most days 200mil/hour PVE is very possible. It still just isn't enough when you consider all the isk sinks, operational costs, etc. So, my suggestion is CCP, stop fighting the bots. Change the EULA to allow them. Then offer your own "official CCP BOT" to accommodate the game's psspoor, boring, mind-numbingly vacant content where isk making is concerned. If people don't want to buy your bots, fine, they can make their own within limitations, no modding the client. Every expansion/update you can introduce some non-official bot breaking mechanic or something that requires them to adjust their personal bots while the CCP bots keep chugging along. This has got to be one of the dumbest suggestions that i've seen on the forums yet. If everybody has a bot printing isk for them then why have isk at all? Just make everything free. It's the same thing. Your suggestion is just a back door way of removing the death penalty.
Zleon Leigh	Posted - 2011.06.03 23:34:00 - [2514] Originally by: Digital Messiah Wouldn't it be a good idea to just start a forum where people post the names of suspected / known botters. If they don't start disappearing we will have our answer. And on top of that could quite easily help this whole situation? And give the botters a heads up that they have been noticed so they can close down, cash out, and get away without consequence? No. Just report suspect to CCP and let them get what's coming to them. If you get fair trades, min prices rise and you find more rats to kill - then you know.
Fix Lag	Posted - 2011.06.03 23:56:00 - [2515] I lol'd. Fix Lag!
Henry Haphorn Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.04 01:35:00 - [2516] Originally by: Tabbie Te'Jir Edited by: Tabbie Te''Jir on 01/06/2011 16:42:12 Originally by: NinjaSpud Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard Originally by: Tabbie Te'Jir CCP needs to find a solution. This topic is getting old. Unless of course CCP cares little for people that play their game the way it was meant to be played...present and accounted for at ones keyboard. Currently, the only solution available that doesn't lead to hundreds of false positives is the one they are using. A slow investigative one. I think they are doing a fine job for what they are up against. 07 to the readers of the original anti bot threadnaught Lets also keep in mind, my intel channel "Bot Grief" has lead to ganking many suspected botters. A few of them even admit it and have been war dec'd. If you wanna help, join us. Enough ****ed off eve players are taking a stand against the botters. This issue should not be left up solely for the players to confront. CCP should be more actively participating in finding a solution. As I said earlier, this has been an ongoing issue for years and CCP's investigative measures are not all that effective since botting is at an all time high and more prevalent than ever. The flaw in your argument is that you assume that CCP is not even trying to find a solution. If anything, judging from the reports that I have seen from my fellow bot hunters, the ban hammer has been striking quite a bit with as much accuracy as possible. It's like being a surgeon in an operating. The surgeon (CCP) wants to remove the tumor (bots/RMT) from the patient (Eve), but he has to use a scalpel to achieve that because using an axe to cut the limb will do the patient no good. You are correct in your assumption that the capsuleers can't do fight this war alone. But then again, neither could CCP. However, when these forces combine, they can create a serious threat to the RMTs/botters. We now have spies within the botting community providing critical intel in the war against bots while our scouts (flying through highsec, lowsec and nullsec) and trackers are observing and reporting bots to CCP in several ways. In essence, we are forcing the bots/RMTs into a war of three fronts: one front being pushed by CCP's ban hammer, the second being pushed by the capsuleers' resolve, the third and final front being pushed by spies within the bot community (whose identities remain a secret).
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.04 02:09:00 - [2517] Quote: Rofl. Not that the DRF dont bot, everyone knows they do, but the... Why is that? because everyone says they do? If you want to be taken seriously don't start your post with a strawman. You know what I'm talking about, "everyone knows that whites are smarter than blacks; everyone knows that men are smarter than women; everyone knows that whites can't jump, dance, or play basketball". Just because some people say that alot doesn't make any of it true.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2011.06.04 05:09:00 - [2518] 10/10 Thread, some good laughs.
Maverick2011 Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.04 05:21:00 - [2519] Originally by: Barbara Nichole Quote: Rofl. Not that the DRF dont bot, everyone knows they do, but the... Why is that? because everyone says they do? If you want to be taken seriously don't start your post with a strawman. You know what I'm talking about, "everyone knows that whites are smarter than blacks; everyone knows that men are smarter than women; everyone knows that whites can't jump, dance, or play basketball". Just because some people say that alot doesn't make any of it true. These statements are always said based on studies. People tend to extreme them but still they started from reserching.
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.06.05 09:28:00 - [2520] This thread is now 6 months old... thread about cca 6 years old problem... So HAPPY 6 MONTHS TO THIS THREAD... :D

Pithum Nullifier	Posted - 2011.06.05 16:44:00 - [2521] Just close the RED Citizen Alliance and 80% of all bots are gone.
UGWidowmaker Caldari freelancers inc -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.06.05 19:44:00 - [2522] kill em all OMFG I am the widowmaker stay tuned. {yellow]Signature which is prompting a login has been removed. Navigator[/yellow]
bornaa	Posted - 2011.06.06 13:07:00 - [2523] Originally by: Avila Cracko Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort? I'm putting out a blog in the next week. Sorry... but i want to ask one thing: where is that blog on the anti-bot effort? it's 3 weeks passed from quoted post...
Wyke Mossari Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.06 17:42:00 - [2524] Looks like another one bites the dust. Stumbled across a site selling a mission bot (Name sent to spud) which was broken by the May 31st patch and still unfixed because CCP issued a DCMA take down against the decomplied source code at git hub (nice one). The complaint thread has been locked.
Solstice Project	Posted - 2011.06.07 11:51:00 - [2525] Edited by: Solstice Project on 07/06/2011 11:52:26 --- wrong anti-bot-thread --- lol
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.08 20:32:00 - [2526] Originally by: Solstice Project Edited by: Solstice Project on 07/06/2011 11:52:26 --- wrong anti-bot-thread --- lol yea... indeed... here is so much anti-bot threads... i think its telling us something...
nubile slave	Posted - 2011.06.08 20:45:00 - [2527] Originally by: Mr Stark It isnt just RMT either, the fact that you cant beat the botting nation in a fair fight becasue they produce enough minerals to build 2 to 3 supercaps a day kind of makes the whole 0.0 situation a completely pointless and boll***s affair. Why bother with 0.0 when you really cant win by playing fair? NC whining alt detected......You realize of course that all the Tech moon goo your leadership has been sucking down could have gone to build 100 SC's a day right?
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.06.10 22:13:00 - [2528] Originally by: Avila Cracko Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort? I'm putting out a blog in the next week. Sorry... but i want to ask one thing: where is that blog on the anti-bot effort? it's 3 weeks passed from quoted post... I am afraid that this all is swept under the carpet... one month passed and still nothing...
Embrojo	Posted - 2011.06.10 22:57:00 - [2529] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1525544 petitioned
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.11 01:02:00 - [2530] Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 11/06/2011 01:02:40 Originally by: Maverick2011 Originally by: Barbara Nichole Quote: Rofl. Not that the DRF dont bot, everyone knows they do, but the... Why is that? because everyone says they do? If you want to be taken seriously don't start your post with a strawman. You know what I'm talking about, "everyone knows that whites are smarter than blacks; everyone knows that men are smarter than women; everyone knows that whites can't jump, dance, or play basketball". Just because some people say that alot doesn't make any of it true. These statements are always said based on studies. People tend to extreme them but still they started from reserching. You can make a targeted study seem to say anything you want..which is part of the reason we have so many politically and liberally slanted studies that turn out to be full of holes and unscientific logic. I'm more concerned with the few here who make seriously flawed statements using poor logic like this: "Everyone knows Mary wears purple underwear; therefor, purple must be a popular color."

T'Laar Bok	Posted - 2011.06.11 02:36:00 - [2531] Originally by: Barbara Nichole Everyone knows Mary wears purple underwear But she said I was the only one she told
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.06.11 03:15:00 - [2532] EN24 contest, don't forget to play! 5 bil baby. http://www.evenews24.com/2011/06/10/en24-anniversary-spai-give-away-up-to-5-bil-in-prizes/
Mister Onyc	Posted - 2011.06.12 01:53:00 - [2533] I'll just leave this here. [20:34:51] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> i have main hearing as defendant on wednesday and then I am witness on one trial on friday [20:35:00] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> after that I am either in jail or free [20:35:11] <rawr-oi-capataz> gay prison? [20:35:27] <rawr-4s-hinata> I thought you were friends with the president Vuk? [20:35:42] <me-jbc-lord-atlan> what you are charged with vuk? [20:35:50] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> tax fraud [20:35:56] <me-jbc-lord-atlan> uhh [20:35:59] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> charges will be droped tho [20:36:08] <rawr-4s-hinata> tax frauding all that RMT money [20:36:12] <rawr-oi-manks-girl> tax fraud or evasion? [20:36:14] <test-b0rt-montolio> Russian mafia is framing vuk [20:36:16] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> fraud [20:36:44] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> and on friday I am witness cause some dudes thought they are awesome and applied extortion on myself [20:36:49] <42-vily> so you really were RMTing all that isk? and their charging you for it? [20:36:52] <42-etny-mynas-atoch> so when do you realize this isn't going to work and do a complete reallocation of the tech moons in venal based on contribution in retaking them? [20:37:01] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> hahahah mynas [20:37:06] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> this is gold [20:37:13] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> that will happen....never http://www.eve-razor.com/forum/index.php?action=genstab&view=2010-12-10#20:36:08
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.06.15 10:13:00 - [2534] So that's EVE fell onto... Botting, RMT, most of game owned by ppl that don't play by the book and that ppl actually owning all other ppl in game, and CCP that don't care for that... every now and then they promise to do something... we stop to yell that loud and believe them... they make few steps... and then... NOTHING... all stops... and they stopped to promise anything now when they saw that we believe them... so they even wont post that Dev blog they promised... and i think that's because they don't know what to write in it because they said to us all that they can think of and to say anything else they would actualy need to do something for real... I lost all my hopes...
Aurora Isis	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:35:00 - [2535] Edited by: Aurora Isis on 15/06/2011 11:37:23 Edited by: Aurora Isis on 15/06/2011 11:36:56 Originally by: Mister Onyc I'll just leave this here. [20:34:51] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> i have main hearing as defendant on wednesday and then I am witness on one trial on friday [20:35:00] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> after that I am either in jail or free [20:35:11] <rawr-oi-capataz> gay prison? [20:35:27] <rawr-4s-hinata> I thought you were friends with the president Vuk? [20:35:42] <me-jbc-lord-atlan> what you are charged with vuk? [20:35:50] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> tax fraud [20:35:56] <me-jbc-lord-atlan> uhh [20:35:59] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> charges will be droped tho [20:36:08] <rawr-4s-hinata> tax frauding all that RMT money [20:36:12] <rawr-oi-manks-girl> tax fraud or evasion? [20:36:14] <test-b0rt-montolio> Russian mafia is framing vuk [20:36:16] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> fraud [20:36:44] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> and on friday I am witness cause some dudes thought they are awesome and applied extortion on myself [20:36:49] <42-vily> so you really were RMTing all that isk? and their charging you for it? [20:36:52] <42-etny-mynas-atoch> so when do you realize this isn't going to work and do a complete reallocation of the tech moons in venal based on contribution in retaking them? [20:37:01] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> hahahah mynas [20:37:06] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> this is gold [20:37:13] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> that will happen....never http://www.eve-razor.com/forum/index.php?action=genstab&view=2010-12-10#20:36:08 LOL i still can't belive there are stupid people like you falling for these troll logs. Hahahahahahahahahahahhaha this is so fascinating. Please do continue.
JibbaJabbas Minmatar MOIL	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:36:00 - [2536] Keep this thread up. Let ccp we have had enuff Time those over paid pricks did summit about this
Captain Travaras	Posted - 2011.06.15 11:54:00 - [2537] Edited by: Captain Travaras on 15/06/2011 11:59:16 Originally by: JibbaJabbas Time those over paid pricks did summit about this that will encourage them to help and make it a priority
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.06.15 13:23:00 - [2538] Originally by: Aurora Isis Edited by: Aurora Isis on 15/06/2011 11:37:23 Edited by: Aurora Isis on 15/06/2011 11:36:56 Originally by: Mister Onyc I'll just leave this here. [20:34:51] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> i have main hearing as defendant on wednesday and then I am witness on one trial on friday [20:35:00] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> after that I am either in jail or free [20:35:11] <rawr-oi-capataz> gay prison? [20:35:27] <rawr-4s-hinata> I thought you were friends with the president Vuk? [20:35:42] <me-jbc-lord-atlan> what you are charged with vuk? [20:35:50] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> tax fraud [20:35:56] <me-jbc-lord-atlan> uhh [20:35:59] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> charges will be droped tho [20:36:08] <rawr-4s-hinata> tax frauding all that RMT money [20:36:12] <rawr-oi-manks-girl> tax fraud or evasion? [20:36:14] <test-b0rt-montolio> Russian mafia is framing vuk [20:36:16] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> fraud [20:36:44] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> and on friday I am witness cause some dudes thought they are awesome and applied extortion on myself [20:36:49] <42-vily> so you really were RMTing all that isk? and their charging you for it? [20:36:52] <42-etny-mynas-atoch> so when do you realize this isn't going to work and do a complete reallocation of the tech moons in venal based on contribution in retaking them? [20:37:01] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> hahahah mynas [20:37:06] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> this is gold [20:37:13] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> that will happen....never http://www.eve-razor.com/forum/index.php?action=genstab&view=2010-12-10#20:36:08 LOL i still can't belive there are stupid people like you falling for these troll logs. Hahahahahahahahahahahhaha this is so fascinating. Please do continue. I don't think so that someone have that much spare time, and nerves, to write pages, and pages, and pages... and some more pages... of forged logs...
Aurora Isis	Posted - 2011.06.15 14:23:00 - [2539] Edited by: Aurora Isis on 15/06/2011 14:25:59 Originally by: Avila Cracko Originally by: Aurora Isis Edited by: Aurora Isis on 15/06/2011 11:37:23 Edited by: Aurora Isis on 15/06/2011 11:36:56 Originally by: Mister Onyc I'll just leave this here. [20:34:51] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> i have main hearing as defendant on wednesday and then I am witness on one trial on friday [20:35:00] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> after that I am either in jail or free [20:35:11] <rawr-oi-capataz> gay prison? [20:35:27] <rawr-4s-hinata> I thought you were friends with the president Vuk? [20:35:42] <me-jbc-lord-atlan> what you are charged with vuk? [20:35:50] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> tax fraud [20:35:56] <me-jbc-lord-atlan> uhh [20:35:59] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> charges will be droped tho [20:36:08] <rawr-4s-hinata> tax frauding all that RMT money [20:36:12] <rawr-oi-manks-girl> tax fraud or evasion? [20:36:14] <test-b0rt-montolio> Russian mafia is framing vuk [20:36:16] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> fraud [20:36:44] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> and on friday I am witness cause some dudes thought they are awesome and applied extortion on myself [20:36:49] <42-vily> so you really were RMTing all that isk? and their charging you for it? [20:36:52] <42-etny-mynas-atoch> so when do you realize this isn't going to work and do a complete reallocation of the tech moons in venal based on contribution in retaking them? [20:37:01] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> hahahah mynas [20:37:06] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> this is gold [20:37:13] <rawr-4s-vuk-lau> that will happen....never http://www.eve-razor.com/forum/index.php?action=genstab&view=2010-12-10#20:36:08 LOL i still can't belive there are stupid people like you falling for these troll logs. Hahahahahahahahahahahhaha this is so fascinating. Please do continue. I don't think so that someone have that much spare time, and nerves, to write pages, and pages, and pages... and some more pages... of forged logs... LOL incredible.... that channel was used for YEARS as a trolling ground and fun channel, everybody in it knew it. LOL why do you think it got published. Nobody wrote pages and pages of this funny stuff, it was just logging everything that was ever said. Also the logs aint forged, they are quite real, just you trusting to whats written there is so funny. The best thing is ppl like you fell for it, and the guys that published it, along with the guys that wrote there are having a laughing time looking at you ppl beliving everything that was wrote here hahahahha.
riverini Gallente Reliables Inc BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.16 06:34:00 - [2540] Originally by: Aurora Isis LOL incredible.... that channel was used for YEARS as a trolling ground and fun channel, everybody in it knew it. LOL why do you think it got published. Nobody wrote pages and pages of this funny stuff, it was just logging everything that was ever said. Also the logs aint forged, they are quite real, just you trusting to whats written there is so funny. The best thing is ppl like you fell for it, and the guys that published it, along with the guys that wrote there are having a laughing time looking at you ppl beliving everything that was written there hahahahha. Fail damage control, next time try to botter doing the char creation thing and adding that throw away char else where to have a bit of credibility...

Aurora Isis	Posted - 2011.06.16 10:11:00 - [2541] Edited by: Aurora Isis on 16/06/2011 10:13:12 Originally by: riverini Originally by: Aurora Isis LOL incredible.... that channel was used for YEARS as a trolling ground and fun channel, everybody in it knew it. LOL why do you think it got published. Nobody wrote pages and pages of this funny stuff, it was just logging everything that was ever said. Also the logs aint forged, they are quite real, just you trusting to whats written there is so funny. The best thing is ppl like you fell for it, and the guys that published it, along with the guys that wrote there are having a laughing time looking at you ppl beliving everything that was written there hahahahha. Fail damage control, next time try to botter doing the char creation thing and adding that throw away char else where to have a bit of credibility... Hahaha why would i need to damage control anything you little troll, you are a funny man indeed. Also i don't need any credibility i couldn't care less if you belive or not, i'm just here to laugh at ppl trusting all sorts of things in those logs hahahaha. edit: also consider this as a free bump.
Adjunta Tungsten	Posted - 2011.06.16 10:27:00 - [2542] The V for Vendetta references in your OP was brilliant. I could actually hear Hugo Weaving saying the lines. Which makes it get +1 for me!
Jayson Rock	Posted - 2011.06.16 12:36:00 - [2543] quick rage with some good points, skip the next paragraph if you don't like reading Bots suck, I'll be the first to admit it, I've raged about it before... on the forums, but unless CCP decides to do something serious about it like creating a task force that can show some results then I don't see much help on its way. Saying the problem is to big to handle because it will always be around is bull** and you guys know it. CCP, if your too damn cheap to pay for a real effort to stop people from botting and basically getting free ** for no effort then charge me and the rest of the players an extra $0.50 for it. with your 300,000 paying accounts that comes to $150,000 but lets cut that in half again just for fun and say your poor effort of listening to players and we get $75,000 per month. That's plenty of cash to run a serious (hey, play fare or GTFO) anti-isk selling and general rule enforcing dev team, hell that's a $900,000 yearly budget that can easily pay 9 professionals to keep your cheating players under control. ok, I feel better now to all you players that pick apart my statements and want to know my definition of (something serious)... eat me, you dirty nerd to CCP, get over the (omg we can't charge over $15 per month to stay competitive with other games) thing, if you have a very good reason for it then chances are players will understand. hold a player vote with a full explanation and budget plans for the extra proposed charge and you may be surprised. oh, and don't let CCP Atlas near any dev blogs... I mean computers... I mean in the building for a few days, get him some professional help
ArchenTheGreat Caldari Pulsar Nebulah Army of Lovers.	Posted - 2011.06.16 14:07:00 - [2544] Originally by: Jayson Rock to CCP, get over the (omg we can't charge over $15 per month to stay competitive with other games) thing, if you have a very good reason for it then chances are players will understand. hold a player vote with a full explanation and budget plans for the extra proposed charge and you may be surprised. Quoted for truth. I will happily pay bit more just to be sure I play on even grounds with other players.
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.16 21:37:00 - [2545] Edited by: Severian Carnifex on 16/06/2011 21:38:21 Originally by: Jayson Rock quick rage with some good points, skip the next paragraph if you don't like reading Bots suck, I'll be the first to admit it, I've raged about it before... on the forums, but unless CCP decides to do something serious about it like creating a task force that can show some results then I don't see much help on its way. Saying the problem is to big to handle because it will always be around is bull** and you guys know it. CCP, if your too damn cheap to pay for a real effort to stop people from botting and basically getting free for no effort then charge me and the rest of the players an extra $0.50 for it. with your 300,000 paying accounts that comes to $150,000 but lets cut that in half again just for fun and say your poor effort of listening to players and we get $75,000 per month. That's plenty of cash to run a serious (hey, play fare or GTFO) anti-isk selling and general rule enforcing dev team, hell that's a $900,000 yearly budget that can easily pay 9 professionals to keep your cheating players under control. ok, I feel better now to all you players that pick apart my statements and want to know my definition of (something serious)... eat me, you dirty nerd to CCP, get over the (omg we can't charge over $15 per month to stay competitive with other games) thing, if you have a very good reason for it then chances are players will understand. hold a player vote with a full explanation and budget plans for the extra proposed charge and you may be surprised. oh, and don't let CCP Atlas near any dev blogs... I mean computers... I mean in the building for a few days, get him some professional help Originally by:** ArchenTheGreat Originally by: Jayson Rock to CCP, get over the (omg we can't charge over $15 per month to stay competitive with other games) thing, if you have a very good reason for it then chances are players will understand. hold a player vote with a full explanation and budget plans for the extra proposed charge and you may be surprised. Quoted for truth. I will happily pay bit more just to be sure I play on even grounds with other players. signed...
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.06.18 09:48:00 - [2546] Bump for this ongoing problem thread...
flobber Groter	Posted - 2011.06.19 04:19:00 - [2547] bump for a good cause
Slate Shoa	Posted - 2011.06.20 20:49:00 - [2548] sooo... how 'bout that dev blog? Feel free to take your time CCP. Oh wait...
Mikk36 Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.01 12:23:00 - [2549] bump
Draco Gon Gallente Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2011.07.03 17:53:00 - [2550] Now that the NeX drama is partially resolved, can we get an update on the botting devblog please?

Krixtal Icefluxor Gallente Bison Industrial Inc	Posted - 2011.07.03 18:36:00 - [2551] {{{{BODY SLAM BUMP}}}} Do SOMEthing about this besides just Incursions. ************************ "God is nothing but the power of the Universe, as a whole, to organize itself." - Lee Smolin Three Roads to Quantum Gravity**
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.07.06 08:55:00 - [2552] I see that 99% of the time is something else more important than botting problem... and botting is ruining the game... so... from all seen can be concluded that problems that are directly ruining the game are are on the end of the to-do list... and whats done is only to calm down the mass... one step and then stop... lets do something that is pure $$$...
Sirius Cassiopeiae	Posted - 2011.07.06 21:13:00 - [2553] I think we gave a lot time to CCP for that blog... and its promised... so I think we don't ask for much...
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.07.11 07:58:00 - [2554] All this was, was closing ppls eyes with "we listen you" and "we are doing something" phrases. yea... they gave us THE BUTTON, but only button don't do anything. But, they won, they closed out eyes and we are waiting for that promised blog for next 18 months, till they make up some other phrases...
Kalle Demos Amarr Helix Protocol	Posted - 2011.07.11 08:15:00 - [2555] Originally by: Avila Cracko All this was, was closing ppls eyes with "we listen you" and "we are doing something" phrases. yea... they gave us THE BUTTON, but only button don't do anything. But, they won, they closed out eyes and we are waiting for that promised blog for next 18 months, till they make up some other phrases... Anom changes? 0.0 changes? UI changes? What exactly do you want them to do, name and shame all the bots :P at least do some research and check the 'bot' websites, they have persistently had 'issues' with CCP patches which has resulted in their bots becoming less reliable. Besides NC are dead now, so the prop thread isnt necessary anymore, the 'real' RMT powerhouse is dead, DRF barely have enough ISK to be considered RMT . LETS POST ON CAOD GANG!
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.07.15 09:19:00 - [2556] Originally by: Kalle Demos Originally by: Avila Cracko All this was, was closing ppls eyes with "we listen you" and "we are doing something" phrases. yea... they gave us THE BUTTON, but only button don't do anything. But, they won, they closed out eyes and we are waiting for that promised blog for next 18 months, till they make up some other phrases... Anom changes? 0.0 changes? UI changes? What exactly do you want them to do, name and shame all the bots :P at least do some research and check the 'bot' websites, they have persistently had 'issues' with CCP patches which has resulted in their bots becoming less reliable. Besides NC are dead now, so the prop thread isnt necessary anymore, the 'real' RMT powerhouse is dead, DRF barely have enough ISK to be considered RMT I want them to do what they promised... nothing less... botts having problems with patch... lol... yea... last 8 years is that way... and bot makers need to spend 1 hour to update botts... and i don't care about RTM... a care about BOTTS and MACROS... what they do after that with ISK is not that important... because botts are ruining the game... and no botts no after-things... and i dont talk about some alliances... i am talking about all EVE universe...
Disturbed Pilot	Posted - 2011.07.15 09:26:00 - [2557] If CCP promised to give 10% of MT profit (for X amount of time) to combat bots, I would forgive them for all there short comings in the last several months.
Jonathan Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.15 21:30:00 - [2558] Originally by: Disturbed Pilot If CCP promised to give 10% of MT profit (for X amount of time) to combat bots, I would forgive them for all there short comings in the last several months. Their lead developer for Internet Spaceships is a goon. Goons bot and RMT on a massive scale. Why would you expect them to do anything about bots or care if you forgive them or not (or believe their promises if they made them, for that matter)? You must be new here. "I represent those who voted for me, not 'everyone'. Don't give me your entitled voter schtick ..." ~CSM Chair Mittens
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.07.15 21:59:00 - [2559] spent way too much time fishing in wow today reminded me how simple it can be to make even the most mind-numbingly boring gameplay considerably harder to automate
Disturbed Pilot	Posted - 2011.07.15 22:15:00 - [2560] Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson Originally by: Disturbed Pilot If CCP promised to give 10% of MT profit (for X amount of time) to combat bots, I would forgive them for all there short comings in the last several months. Their lead developer for Internet Spaceships is a goon. Goons bot and RMT on a massive scale. Why would you expect them to do anything about bots or care if you forgive them or not (or believe their promises if they made them, for that matter)? You must be new here. I'd just like to say, i left my opinion short and to the point to see if a troll would grab hold of it. Do you really got nothing better to do?

Jonathan Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.16 18:06:00 - [2561] Originally by: Disturbed Pilot Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson Originally by: Disturbed Pilot If CCP promised to give 10% of MT profit (for X amount of time) to combat bots, I would forgive them for all there short comings in the last several months. Their lead developer for Internet Spaceships is a goon. Goons bot and RMT on a massive scale. Why would you expect them to do anything about bots or care if you forgive them or not (or believe their promises if they made them, for that matter)? You must be new here. I'd just like to say, i left my opinion short and to the point to see if a troll would grab hold of it. Do you really got nothing better to do? You made an ignorant/inflammatory post to provoke a reaction, then? (Isn't that trolling?) You really got nothing better to do? "I represent those who voted for me, not 'everyone'. Don't give me your entitled voter schtick ..." ~CSM Chair Mittens
Novon Toll	Posted - 2011.07.16 21:31:00 - [2562] Good topic. Death to bots!
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.07.18 22:10:00 - [2563] ehhm... and whats about that blog??? _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Cletus Majora	Posted - 2011.07.18 22:17:00 - [2564] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae ehhm... and whats about that blog??? lol, just lol. To expect 'that blog', one would have to expect that anything CCP says, or has said, about their pursuit of botting was true, or is true. I know that most of the denizens of this threadnaught believe them, but, really, where is the actual evidence? Everywhere I go I see either the same old bots or new bots in the same numbers. Originally by: The A Team's Mr. T I pity the fool (who thinks CCP really wants to do anything about botting)
OHU812	Posted - 2011.07.18 22:26:00 - [2565] Yup... might as well quit wasting your time.
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.19 20:26:00 - [2566] Over on failheap a potty-mouthed fanboi is claiming that with respect to bots, CCP have "picked up the ball here and run with it. The problem isn't completely solved and it never can be but they are doing something about it." Is there any truth to this or is it still just like 1 guy at CCP giving multiple chances to botters enforcing a policy with multiple loopholes, allowing botting to continue more or less as before? I'd think that if CCP were really doing something significant, they'd be crowing about it. Want to buy a monocle?
Meryl SinGarda Caldari Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team	Posted - 2011.07.19 20:32:00 - [2567] There needs to be a topic called, "WE ARE FED UP!!!! TIME TO MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT DERPERS AND WHINERS!!!!" Fly safe, Die hard
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.07.19 21:02:00 - [2568] Originally by: AkJon Ferguson Over on failheap a potty-mouthed fanboi is claiming that with respect to bots, CCP have "picked up the ball here and run with it. The problem isn't completely solved and it never can be but they are doing something about it." Is there any truth to this or is it still just like 1 guy at CCP giving multiple chances to botters enforcing a policy with multiple loopholes, allowing botting to continue more or less as before? I'd think that if CCP were really doing something significant, they'd be crowing about it. CCP has told the CSM this (from the May meeting minutes with the Eve Secutity Task Force): "CSM was shown a graph of the number of characters actively performing a ôcertain actionö more than 20 hours a day. There were huge chasms in the graph around Chinese New Year, Hulkageddon, and a final cliff like drop after the first ESTF bannings." "Only 8% of players who receive their first strike go on to get a second strike. CSM noted that this compares to a 1-year recidivism rate in the US of 16%, which indicates that EVE players are distressingly law-abiding. As of the week before the summit, nearly 100 players had received a third-strike, but an additional number of players who had been caught botting were separately banned for RMT. CSM raised the concern that the numbers being shown were being affected by character laundering (selling of characters that have received strikes and replacing them with clean characters). However, CCP tracks this activity and the numbers are not significant." For that last: The strikes are against the PLAYER, not the account or character. There are reports in the other bot thread of botters with 5 accounts, 4 of which bot, getting all 5 banned. So CCP is doing something. But is it enough?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.19 21:17:00 - [2569] Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: AkJon Ferguson Over on failheap a potty-mouthed fanboi is claiming that with respect to bots, CCP have "picked up the ball here and run with it. The problem isn't completely solved and it never can be but they are doing something about it." Is there any truth to this or is it still just like 1 guy at CCP giving multiple chances to botters enforcing a policy with multiple loopholes, allowing botting to continue more or less as before? I'd think that if CCP were really doing something significant, they'd be crowing about it. CCP has told the CSM this (from the May meeting minutes with the Eve Secutity Task Force): "CSM was shown a graph of the number of characters actively performing a ôcertain actionö more than 20 hours a day. There were huge chasms in the graph around Chinese New Year, Hulkageddon, and a final cliff like drop after the first ESTF bannings." "Only 8% of players who receive their first strike go on to get a second strike. CSM noted that this compares to a 1-year recidivism rate in the US of 16%, which indicates that EVE players are distressingly law-abiding. As of the week before the summit, nearly 100 players had received a third-strike, but an additional number of players who had been caught botting were separately banned for RMT. CSM raised the concern that the numbers being shown were being affected by character laundering (selling of characters that have received strikes and replacing them with clean characters). However, CCP tracks this activity and the numbers are not significant." For that last: The strikes are against the PLAYER, not the account or character. There are reports in the other bot thread of botters with 5 accounts, 4 of which bot, getting all 5 banned. So CCP is doing something. But is it enough? That actually sounds promising. Thanks for the info. (Not sure how wise it is to tell the botters that the cut-off is 20 hours per day, but that might be (justifiable for a change) deliberate misinformation. Want to buy a monocle?
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.07.19 21:26:00 - [2570] Originally by: AkJon Ferguson Originally by: Vincent Athena Originally by: AkJon Ferguson Over on failheap a potty-mouthed fanboi is claiming that with respect to bots, CCP have "picked up the ball here and run with it. The problem isn't completely solved and it never can be but they are doing something about it." Is there any truth to this or is it still just like 1 guy at CCP giving multiple chances to botters enforcing a policy with multiple loopholes, allowing botting to continue more or less as before? I'd think that if CCP were really doing something significant, they'd be crowing about it. CCP has told the CSM this (from the May meeting minutes with the Eve Secutity Task Force): "CSM was shown a graph of the number of characters actively performing a ôcertain actionö more than 20 hours a day. There were huge chasms in the graph around Chinese New Year, Hulkageddon, and a final cliff like drop after the first ESTF bannings." "Only 8% of players who receive their first strike go on to get a second strike. CSM noted that this compares to a 1-year recidivism rate in the US of 16%, which indicates that EVE players are distressingly law-abiding. As of the week before the summit, nearly 100 players had received a third-strike, but an additional number of players who had been caught botting were separately banned for RMT. CSM raised the concern that the numbers being shown were being affected by character laundering (selling of characters that have received strikes and replacing them with clean characters). However, CCP tracks this activity and the numbers are not significant." For that last: The strikes are against the PLAYER, not the account or character. There are reports in the other bot thread of botters with 5 accounts, 4 of which bot, getting all 5 banned. So CCP is doing something. But is it enough? That actually sounds promising. Thanks for the info. (Not sure how wise it is to tell the botters that the cut-off is 20 hours per day, but that might be (justifiable for a change) deliberate misinformation. Which just leaves the minor side issue of the "potty mouthed fanboi" being right and you being wrong. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.

AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.19 21:43:00 - [2571] Edited by: AkJon Ferguson on 19/07/2011 21:46:11 On this issue (whether or not CCP's actions are having any significant effect at reducing/deterring botting,) it sounds like you were right and I was wrong. (and I'd rather be wrong than right here, tbh.) Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.20 18:00:00 - [2572] Originally by: Vincent Athena So CCP is doing something. But is it enough? Not if it means that all a botter has to do is bot 18 hours a day on 4 PLEXed accounts instead of 23.5 hours a day on 3 PLEXed accounts. 'Recidivism rates' are meaningless if 'law enforcement' is incompetent or if the criminals have learned how to avoid detection. Fewer than 100 players banned for botting. It sounds like CCP has made a 'promising' start, by targeting the most flagrant abusers. CCP is very good at promising. Delivering, not so much. What ever became of that list of RMTers on EVENews24? Were they all banned? Were they at least all investigated? Want to buy a monocle?
edith prickley	Posted - 2011.07.20 18:45:00 - [2573] Edited by: edith prickley on 20/07/2011 18:50:14 The CSM numbers are interesting. 100 banned (3rd strike) and 8% 2nd strike recidivism. If we knew the 3rd strike rate, we'd know how active CCP has been, but we can still make some guesses. For instance, if we assume the 8% repeat offenders are determined botters, and 100% of them go on to a 3rd strike, then we find that CCP have detected a total of 1250 botters. Doesn't seem like very much. On the other hand, if we use the known 2nd strike rate (8%) for the 3rd strike as well, we get 15625 bots detected. Ouch, that would mean almost 10% of Eve users were identified as bots (assuming ~160k people are playing, which is about what you get from 360k accounts and 2.25 accounts per person). Probably the real answer is between these two widely separated extremes, since I guess the perma-ban 3rd strike penalty is enough to deter some proportion of even the most serious botters. Hopefully Sreegs returns to the forums with his blog at some point so that we can stop speculating.
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.07.20 19:36:00 - [2574] Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 20/07/2011 19:36:36 ppl, you know that sticky topic "Current Botting and Exploit/Client Modification Policies - 12/5/2011" well... its not any more... and you know when something is not important any more... when they remove it... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Cletus Majora	Posted - 2011.07.20 19:43:00 - [2575] It's so very interesting to see all these people putting absolute faith in what amounts to an absolutely unfaithful company. Ooooh, they showed the CSM a graph??? Well, shut my mouth! I guess that proves everything. When combined with the removed sticky on botting policy, I wonder when all these faithful will finally open their eyes and see the absolute LACK of evidence staring right at them.
edith prickley	Posted - 2011.07.20 19:53:00 - [2576] Edited by: edith prickley on 20/07/2011 19:54:19 Yup, given that Sreegs has been quiet for a couple of months now and they've silently removed his policy sticky (a very strange move), I'm beginning to have more faith in the botters' point of view: CCP is really just paying lip service to this problem. Well, we've heard it from Hilmar himself. Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do. So CCP, what are you doing?
Jonathan Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.24 21:06:00 - [2577] Trusting CCP kinda reminds me of Sam Kinison's take on love/marriage. "I represent those who voted for me, not 'everyone'. Don't give me your entitled voter schtick ..." ~CSM Chair Mittens

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.07.24 22:14:00 - [2578] Originally by: edith prickley Edited by: edith prickley on 20/07/2011 19:54:19 Yup, given that Sreegs has been quiet for a couple of months now and they've silently removed his policy sticky (a very strange move), I'm beginning to have more faith in the botters' point of view: CCP is really just paying lip service to this problem. Well, we've heard it from Hilmar himself. Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do. So CCP, what are you doing? Banning botters

Tautut The Union Of The Snake	Posted - 2011.07.24 22:19:00 - [2579] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: edith prickley Edited by: edith prickley on 20/07/2011 19:54:19 Yup, given that Sreegs has been quiet for a couple of months now and they've silently removed his policy sticky (a very strange move), I'm beginning to have more faith in the botters' point of view: CCP is really just paying lip service to this problem. Well, we've heard it from Hilmar himself. Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do. So CCP, what are you doing? Banning botters Right on. Although I've just put a couple of war decs on a few ... Not trying to make your life difficult but be sensitive to my combat needs. The Union of the Snake [SNAKE]
Moon Shadowfall	Posted - 2011.07.24 22:22:00 - [2580] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: edith prickley Edited by: edith prickley on 20/07/2011 19:54:19 Yup, given that Sreegs has been quiet for a couple of months now and they've silently removed his policy sticky (a very strange move), I'm beginning to have more faith in the botters' point of view: CCP is really just paying lip service to this problem. Well, we've heard it from Hilmar himself. Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do. So CCP, what are you doing? Banning botters 86 pages summed up with two words. LOL

Jonathan Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.24 22:24:00 - [2581] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Banning non-goon botters while I spew buzzwords and happytalk in an effort to gain more influence at CCP like the rest of the circle-jerks who work here. FYP (My condolences.) "I represent those who voted for me, not 'everyone'. Don't give me your entitled voter schtick ..." ~CSM Chair Mittens

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.07.24 22:31:00 - [2582] Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson Originally by: CCP Sreegs Banning non-goon botters while I spew buzzwords and happytalk in an effort to gain more influence at CCP like the rest of the circle-jerks who work here. FYP (My condolences.) I'd appreciate it if you'd A) Not misquote me B) Stop stalking me, it's creepy I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself. Thanks!

Jonathan Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.24 22:36:00 - [2583] Darius, I feel bad for you. I'm gonna give you a heads up on the buzzword you should be using more. It's one of Touborg's favorite words, versimilitude. It means, truthlikeness. CCP uses it a lot. If you drop a few V-bombs at the next big meeting, I'm sure you'll be a non-intern in no time. "I represent those who voted for me, not 'everyone'. Don't give me your entitled voter schtick ..." ~CSM Chair Mittens
Jonathan Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.24 22:40:00 - [2584] Oops, sorry for the X-post, Darius. I'd appreciate it if you'd: 1. Not lie (FYP means I've changed the content, so I'm not 'misquoting' you.) 2. Not accuse me of **** I don't do. (okay, technically that's lying, but I had to think of 2 things) (Stalk you? A week ago I didn't even know you were a goon. Get over yourself, son.) You do your job and you'll have no complaints from me. "I represent those who voted for me, not 'everyone'. Don't give me your entitled voter schtick ..." ~CSM Chair Mittens
Amsterdam Conversations	Posted - 2011.07.24 23:12:00 - [2585] Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson Oops, sorry for the X-post, Darius. I'd appreciate it if you'd: 1. Not lie (FYP means I've changed the content, so I'm not 'misquoting' you.) 2. Not accuse me of **** I don't do. (okay, technically that's lying, but I had to think of 2 things) (Stalk you? A week ago I didn't even know you were a goon. Get over yourself, son.) You do your job and you'll have no complaints from me. Look at how proud he is of himself for knowing who the player behind CCP Sreegs is. He must be a scientist to have found out.
Jon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.25 19:32:00 - [2586] No more QEN's. Botters will now be allowed to bot with impunity since there will be no more hard evidence to prove that the entire EVE economy is a botfest. C/D?
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.07.25 19:54:00 - [2587] Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson You do your job and you'll have no complaints from me. I find that very hard to believe.
Speaker4 theDead Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.25 19:58:00 - [2588] Originally by: Jon Ferguson No more QEN's. Botters will now be allowed to bot with impunity since there will be no more hard evidence to prove that the entire EVE economy is a botfest. C/D? LOL, How would CCP survive without the Botfest? Current Subscription6 Months- Canceled Account Expires09 August 2011 - 4:04 am (in 14 days)
Jon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.25 20:07:00 - [2589] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson You do your job and you'll have no complaints from me. I find that very hard to believe. What's hard to believe? I give CCP credit when they get it right. I give CCP employees credit when they get it right. Doesn't Turbefield work for CCP? And I misspelled verisimilitude, sorry, my bad.
Moon Shadowfall	Posted - 2011.07.25 21:09:00 - [2590] Originally by: Jon Ferguson Originally by: dexington Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson You do your job and you'll have no complaints from me. I find that very hard to believe. What's hard to believe? I give CCP credit when they get it right. I give CCP employees credit when they get it right. Doesn't Turbefield work for CCP? And I misspelled verisimilitude, sorry, my bad. He doesn't believe you have the ability to...not complain, since you do it multiple times a day, in multiple threads.

Jon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.25 21:19:00 - [2591] Originally by: Moon Shadowfall Originally by: Jon Ferguson Originally by: dexington Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson You do your job and you'll have no complaints from me. I find that very hard to believe. What's hard to believe? I give CCP credit when they get it right. I give CCP employees credit when they get it right. Doesn't Turbefield work for CCP? And I misspelled verisimilitude, sorry, my bad. He doesn't believe you have the ability to...not complain, since you do it multiple times a day, in multiple threads. Faulty logic aside, have some evidence, maybe that'll help.
Moon Shadowfall	Posted - 2011.07.25 21:32:00 - [2592] Edited by: Moon Shadowfall on 25/07/2011 21:32:48 Originally by: Jon Ferguson Faulty logic aside, have some evidence, maybe that'll help. It takes about 30 seconds most days to run into a post where you are whining and crying. Yesterday there were 5 threads in which you were doing so..on the first page. A quick check just now....about 2 minutes...show three threads where you are being...an "ass". Quite easy actually...
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.07.26 11:53:00 - [2593] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: edith prickley Edited by: edith prickley on 20/07/2011 19:54:19 Yup, given that Sreegs has been quiet for a couple of months now and they've silently removed his policy sticky (a very strange move), I'm beginning to have more faith in the botters' point of view: CCP is really just paying lip service to this problem. Well, we've heard it from Hilmar himself. Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do. So CCP, what are you doing? Banning botters Nice to hear that... but i would like to see that too...
Tsukimaru Amarr Stargate SG-1 Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2011.07.26 12:33:00 - [2594] Only YOU can prevent forum fires.
Hawk Firestorm	Posted - 2011.07.26 13:01:00 - [2595] Edited by: Hawk Firestorm on 26/07/2011 13:01:35 Well if you truely want to help stop boting then go into features and Ideas and find the post I and other made regarding Mining changes in the Fix mining dont spot bots outsmart them thread. There's a proposal there to stop em stone cold dead. And give it your support.
Feawin Gallente Northstar Cabal	Posted - 2011.07.26 13:15:00 - [2596] Edited by: Feawin on 26/07/2011 13:15:52 Only professional l33ts like yourselves can manage to make a thread with serious undertone into a flame-bash thread that CCP now doesnt even bother to read. As for the OPs original complaint: ~Signed And before anyone asks, yes im mad.
Sanwa Dufore	Posted - 2011.07.28 04:40:00 - [2597] Noise..... Just keeping it going.
Sanwa Dufore	Posted - 2011.07.30 00:19:00 - [2598] Guess the thread is dead
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.08.12 19:49:00 - [2599] Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 12/08/2011 19:50:03 Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreggs: Any word on when we get your blog on the anti-bot effort? I'm putting out a blog in the next week. that was posted: "Posted - 2011.05.12 10:20:00 - [2455] - " that's one looooong week... anything new on this subject? _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Joeve Vess	Posted - 2011.08.12 20:39:00 - [2600] I do not think that CPP is Being Complacent about botting they would have really nothing to gain and everything to lose by not banning them.

Kendra Wilkinson	Posted - 2011.08.12 20:42:00 - [2601] Quote: "there's no bot in our game, just ppl who play every day and 23h/24 in belt"
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2011.08.12 20:45:00 - [2602] Originally by: Kendra Wilkinson Quote: "there's no bot in our game, just ppl who play every day and 23h/24 in belt" They doing missions now, the new advanced macros can do most lv4 missions and reject difficult ones. Dozens of bots are now active around caldari mission hubs.
Rykuss Gallente	Posted - 2011.08.13 00:07:00 - [2603] They've adapted, which was to be expected but you can still find mining bots. Some people chat in local everyday after downtime for about fifteen minutes and then leave their bot to run for the rest of the time the server is up. They've added something to their bio's and all that but the one thing they can't mask is their pattern. I frequent several regions and after a while, you see the pattern. Can I have your Vindicator? :D
Izida Caldari EVE-EX Express Courier Service	Posted - 2011.08.13 00:07:00 - [2604] Edited by: Izida on 13/08/2011 00:10:09 Any updates from CCP yet on this?
Cadet Wiggin	Posted - 2011.08.13 00:35:00 - [2605] Originally by: Rykuss They've adapted, which was to be expected but you can still find mining bots. Some people chat in local everyday after downtime for about fifteen minutes and then leave their bot to run for the rest of the time the server is up. They've added something to their bio's and all that but the one thing they can't mask is their pattern. I frequent several regions and after a while, you see the pattern. Then your only seeing a small portion of them, a quality coder will input some randomness just for people like you...;-) I really can't believe this thread has gone on this long, you won't make a dent in it, you never will. It's been a part of the Eve economy since the beginning, and will continue to do so. They don't have the ability to catch that many simply because catching them would require an invasion of people's personal computer, this is still frowned upon in most countries. Besides you'll see a serious inflationary spiral in everything related to manufacture, as well as serious deflation in GTC prices, as the bots will no longer be purchasing them. Not to mention the number of accounts that would be lost to CCP. If they actually found a way to boot all the bots, they'd also lose the small players who use them to "Keep up with the Joneses" Could CCP handle the loss of 30% of it's accounts? (Could actually be more, I'm simply guessing based on my experience of years of 0.0) For the record, I don't advocate Bots, or use them. I usually will try and kill them when I find them, but those are only the obvious ones. But to think you'll ever get rid of them? That is naive beyond belief. They exist in every major mmo, and no one has been able to stop them yet. Do you honestly think CCP's coders have what it takes? Think carefully before answering....
Rykuss Gallente	Posted - 2011.08.13 01:11:00 - [2606] Originally by: Cadet Wiggin Originally by: Rykuss They've adapted, which was to be expected but you can still find mining bots. Some people chat in local everyday after downtime for about fifteen minutes and then leave their bot to run for the rest of the time the server is up. They've added something to their bio's and all that but the one thing they can't mask is their pattern. I frequent several regions and after a while, you see the pattern. Then your only seeing a small portion of them, a quality coder will input some randomness just for people like you...;-) I really can't believe this thread has gone on this long, you won't make a dent in it, you never will. It's been a part of the Eve economy since the beginning, and will continue to do so. They don't have the ability to catch that many simply because catching them would require an invasion of people's personal computer, this is still frowned upon in most countries. Besides you'll see a serious inflationary spiral in everything related to manufacture, as well as serious deflation in GTC prices, as the bots will no longer be purchasing them. Not to mention the number of accounts that would be lost to CCP. If they actually found a way to boot all the bots, they'd also lose the small players who use them to "Keep up with the Joneses" Could CCP handle the loss of 30% of it's accounts? (Could actually be more, I'm simply guessing based on my experience of years of 0.0) For the record, I don't advocate Bots, or use them. I usually will try and kill them when I find them, but those are only the obvious ones. But to think you'll ever get rid of them? That is naive beyond belief. They exist in every major mmo, and no one has been able to stop them yet. Do you honestly think CCP's coders have what it takes? Think carefully before answering.... People like me report your accounts for botting, it's pretty effortless really. I right click and report the ebil botter. Why, you might ask? It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling in my special places. I like your doom and gloom assessment though(EVE will die without botters!!111), it's pretty funny and has been mentioned multiple times already. Thanks for sharing. Can I have your Vindicator? :D
Henry Haphorn Gallente	Posted - 2011.08.13 02:13:00 - [2607] Originally by: Cadet Wiggin Then your only seeing a small portion of them, a quality coder will input some randomness just for people like you...;-) I really can't believe this thread has gone on this long, you won't make a dent in it, you never will. It's been a part of the Eve economy since the beginning, and will continue to do so. They don't have the ability to catch that many simply because catching them would require an invasion of people's personal computer, this is still frowned upon in most countries. Besides you'll see a serious inflationary spiral in everything related to manufacture, as well as serious deflation in GTC prices, as the bots will no longer be purchasing them. Not to mention the number of accounts that would be lost to CCP. If they actually found a way to boot all the bots, they'd also lose the small players who use them to "Keep up with the Joneses" Could CCP handle the loss of 30% of it's accounts? (Could actually be more, I'm simply guessing based on my experience of years of 0.0) For the record, I don't advocate Bots, or use them. I usually will try and kill them when I find them, but those are only the obvious ones. But to think you'll ever get rid of them? That is naive beyond belief. They exist in every major mmo, and no one has been able to stop them yet. Do you honestly think CCP's coders have what it takes? Think carefully before answering.... Just because the bots out number the bot hunters, it doesn't mean we have no choice but to stand aside and let them continue to infest our universe like a disease. We all know that we can't possibly get rid of all diseases, but at the very least we have to contain it to manageable levels. I'm speaking from from a realistic point of view here. Let's also not forget that other MMOs have their own bot hunters as well. From what I can gather, every MMO has an increasing awareness about the presence of bots in their game. Some have even mustered their own player-driven causes to combat the infestation. Of course, Eve Online is probably one of a few (if not the only) games that allow players to directly retaliate against others without the target's approval. It is perhaps that very reason that has enable us Capsuleers to keep the bot users on their toes. But anyways, I have seen many excuses that bot users have employed to justify their use of bot programs or the existence thereof. 1. Mining is boring. 2. Missions are boring. 3. Markets are boring. 4. I don't have time to mission/mine because I have a life. 5. I can't mine enough minerals on my own because the prices are so low. The list goes on. Some bot users admittedly don't even hide the fact that they bot (these sort of bot users usually live in 0.0). Now the issue we are having is the debate about where bots flourish most: High-sec or Null-sec? Some of us will say it's high-sec because of the protection of Concord as well as the anti-war-dec policies that npc corps have. Others will say it's null-sec because the protection they have with the local alliance (not to mention the ease of spotting a red in local). It's this debate that has probably divided bot hunters for a while, especially since resources for the gankers are limited.
mkint	Posted - 2011.08.13 02:25:00 - [2608] Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson Originally by: CCP Sreegs Banning non-goon botters while I spew buzzwords and happytalk in an effort to gain more influence at CCP like the rest of the circle-jerks who work here. FYP (My condolences.) Best "eve is dying" post ever. CCPers, transfer your pensions into something better than CCP stock, because those are the symptoms of a company who's management is too incompetent to handle it's size.
Gratianus Augustus	Posted - 2011.08.13 02:28:00 - [2609] Edited by: Gratianus Augustus on 13/08/2011 02:30:43 Asking for bots to be policed is like asking Bj÷rg=lfur Thor Bj÷rg=lfsson to just give his money to charity. Not going to happen. Originally by: Cadet Wiggin Could CCP handle the loss of 30% of it's accounts? The actual players are just a crowd to hide in. They don't need too many now with the larger transactions that can be pushed through the system.
Serene Repose Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2011.08.13 02:53:00 - [2610] Wow! 2600 responses. Are people still botting? My karma ran over my dogma.

Dusty Warrior	Posted - 2011.08.13 03:10:00 - [2611] Edited by: Dusty Warrior on 13/08/2011 03:10:51 I've listened to many players openly admit on coms they use bot for numerous things. Wanna guess where? You got it! 0.0 sov. Primary reason why I stay in hi or lo sec. Sad part, it's widely accepted and if you talk against it in many of the 0.0 alliances you will find yourself booted. Sad... only way some people feel they can play a game is to cheat.
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.08.13 13:25:00 - [2612] Originally by: Izida Edited by: Izida on 13/08/2011 00:10:09 Any updates from CCP yet on this?
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.08.16 09:37:00 - [2613] Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae on 16/08/2011 09:39:44 I open EVE forums this morning and see one topic named "Winter expansion... because bots need more love"... and i must agree on it... no banning bots or doing things to make theirs life harder and buffing the main "land" where they live... nice message from CCP... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Anea Ruminare	Posted - 2011.08.16 09:48:00 - [2614] This thread is getting useless. A lot of ppl stopped giving a sh*t about these problems. Leave the game and start searching for smth new. From what we`ve seen from announces and blogs eve will only get more flashy with less intelligent content. Start searching for new games, cause eve is dying and you don`t want more time invested in this game. Also a lot of free fun games out there, Black Prophecy, World of Tanks.. etc. You will get to my words sooner or later. It`s your choice.
Vlad Chistian	Posted - 2011.08.16 10:02:00 - [2615] Next thing you know, RMTers will be selling Monocles for far cheaper than you could get them with PLEX What? No. I didn't buy one! Honest. Bots: ruining your business since forever.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.08.16 10:19:00 - [2616] ran a mission bot in march for a few weeks, stopped after I had enough ISK to buy what I wanted. bot then got a lot of publicity (partly due to myself posting about it here), bot author even made recommendations to CCP how to break it now I returned to botting (don't play eve anymore, reinstalled the bot to earn some isk for plexes to keep training but running the eve client for hours just to keep adding to some SP numbers turned out to be too much :effort: so I just let the account expire) and see that the bot still works just fine, no reports of unusual bans in the meantime (just a few bans for the 23/7 crowd), no attempts by CCP to break it, ... lol
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.08.16 11:58:00 - [2617] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 16/08/2011 12:04:19 Originally by: Dusty Warrior Edited by: Dusty Warrior on 13/08/2011 03:10:51 I've listened to many players openly admit on coms they use bot for numerous things. Wanna guess where? You got it! 0.0 sov. Primary reason why I stay in hi or lo sec. Sad part, it's widely accepted and if you talk against it in many of the 0.0 alliances you will find yourself booted. Sad... only way some people feel they can play a game is to cheat. I'm going to theorycraft a bit here. So, CCP has been ineffective at removing bots from the game. Sure, they've had their periods where they say they have removed bots but, they've never indicated where the bots operated, who they were, what corps they belonged to, etc. What we do know is RMT is rampant in nullsec. In fact, you cannot exist in nullsec without paying up to large alliance which pay up to larger coalitions funding a few large entities with buttloads of isk. Even through the periods where CCP has publicly announced their botting efforts, RMT has remained viable. In fact, large wars were conducted - NC & DRF supposedly during such efforts. Now, we have the blueprint for the next 5 years. Basically, anything profitable in hisec will become the sole domain of nullsec. My question is this: Are all of CCP's "botting" efforts and the new nullsec blueprint merely a means to eliminate competition for RMT'ers from which CCP may benefit directly and financially? As much as CCP talked up it's disdain for RMT, it's not illegal. CCP's EULA, while stating that botting, in very vague terminology, is bad, could merely be a means for CCP to "legitimize" selective account bans in order to protect their own interests and eliminate competition. Afterall, we have no data to know who, what, where and when. Discuss.
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.08.16 23:09:00 - [2618] yay... security blog is here... but... i must say... i expected something completely different of "where is report bot button" devblog...
Gratianus Augustus	Posted - 2011.08.17 04:53:00 - [2619] For those that actually want to play this scam, you shouldn't have to wait too long for bots to be reduced. Once "Site Licenses" and the new currency are settled in properly CCP will just pump their fraud through there instead and the vast majority of bots will be turned off over-night. They just chew too much server resources, thin-client or not. Only problem will be keeping all the "workers" fed with revenue stream so they don't turn against the family.
Leisen Caldari Interrobang Inc.	Posted - 2011.08.17 04:59:00 - [2620] I, as someone who does not mine, hope they never get rid of bots. They keep minerals cheap, and in turn keep manufactured goods cheap. And I do love my manufactured goods.

Joshua Cy	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:36:00 - [2621] I do not think bots lower the price of minerals. The reason is many bots are not mining bots, they are mission bots, ratting bots and trading bots. All those make isk for the owner, and that isk is used to buy manufactured goods. All that ill gotten isk drives up demand and hence prices. Sure the mining bots add to supply, but even their owners use the isk to buy stuff. So its not at all clear that killing all bots will result in a mineral price increase. Since CCP started really working on the bot issue (March of this year) mineral prices have risen a little, but ice prices have really gone up. The only reason I can see for that is CCP has killed many ice mining bots. They were increasing the ice supply, but few bot owners bought ice products, leading to a ice supply reduction and higher prices.
Gratianus Augustus	Posted - 2011.08.18 00:31:00 - [2622] Originally by: Joshua Cy mineral prices have risen a little Bot numbers haven't really changed, but around 20k less players per day might have had an impact. Will be funny when they start seeding the market to cover it, so much for the smoke and mirrors of player run economy. Don't worry, when DUST is released and these forums deleted, new kids will come, moral will improve and they can step-up the laundering again.
Henry Haphorn Gallente	Posted - 2011.08.18 00:55:00 - [2623] Originally by: Anea Ruminare This thread is getting useless. A lot of ppl stopped giving a sh*t about these problems. Leave the game and start searching for smth new. From what we`ve seen from announces and blogs eve will only get more flashy with less intelligent content. Start searching for new games, cause eve is dying and you don`t want more time invested in this game. Also a lot of free fun games out there, Black Prophecy, World of Tanks.. etc. You will get to my words sooner or later. It`s your choice. And yet this thread managed to go beyond 80+ pages. If the Eve community never gave a crap, then this thread wouldn't have gotten this far.
Leisen Caldari Interrobang Inc.	Posted - 2011.08.18 02:33:00 - [2624] Dunno, Henry. Seems to me a lot of posts in here are basically "I don't care," posts. And 80+ pages in over a year isn't impressive, imo... Hell, I'm only posting out of boredom.
Kengutsi Akira	Posted - 2011.08.18 03:22:00 - [2625] omg this thread is still around O.o ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass"
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.08.22 08:51:00 - [2626] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 22/08/2011 08:53:24 rofl, wrote a post in this thread about a week ago shortly describing how I have been using a popular mission bot and how ccp did nothing (over more than half a year) to break that bot. post gets deleted by ccp, my account remains unbanned. have fun believing that ccp does care...
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.08.22 08:53:00 - [2627] Originally by: Cyaxares II rofl, wrote a post in this thread shortly describing how I have been using a popular mission bot and how ccp did nothing (over more than half a year) to break that bot. post gets deleted by ccp, my account remains unbanned. have fun believing that ccp does care... O.o _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Karl Planck Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos	Posted - 2011.08.22 10:30:00 - [2628] Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 22/08/2011 08:53:24 rofl, wrote a post in this thread about a week ago shortly describing how I have been using a popular mission bot and how ccp did nothing (over more than half a year) to break that bot. post gets deleted by ccp, my account remains unbanned. have fun believing that ccp does care... or you could be lying to make your epeen look bigger ------------------------------------------------- Don't debate with morons. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.08.22 12:38:00 - [2629] Originally by: Cyaxares II Edited by: Cyaxares II on 22/08/2011 08:53:24 rofl, wrote a post in this thread about a week ago shortly describing how I have been using a popular mission bot and how ccp did nothing (over more than half a year) to break that bot. post gets deleted by ccp, my account remains unbanned. have fun believing that ccp does care... I read it after you posted it. Dude, CCP cares! They took time to painstakingly cover up your confession for you.
Prince Kobol	Posted - 2011.08.22 13:30:00 - [2630] I would love to see the comparison of how many botters have been banned by your average high sec joe blogs to the RMT monsters of null sec alliance. I suspect that it would be many high sec ave joe bloggs and a handful of your null sec RMT monsters

Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.08.22 15:34:00 - [2631] Originally by: Prince Kobol I would love to see the comparison of how many botters have been banned by your average high sec joe blogs to the RMT monsters of null sec alliance. I suspect that it would be many high sec ave joe bloggs and a handful of your null sec RMT monsters You guys are asking for the wrong statistics. What needs to be analyzed are which corps the people belong to who are banned. I'm betting that if such figures were released you'd see a fairly even application of bans to those in hisec and a very selective application to those in nullsec. I'm somewhat favoring the hypothesis that CCP is benefiting from RMT and so, its anti-botting efforts merely serve to reduce competition for those RMT'ers paying up to CCP.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.08.26 14:57:00 - [2632] hey look!Data!! -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. This is your NGE/CU moment CCP.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.08.26 15:08:00 - [2633] Two year old data. We want equivalent data for the current effort.
Sullen Skoung	Posted - 2011.08.26 15:17:00 - [2634] Originally by: Vincent Athena Two year old data. We want equivalent data for the current effort. You gotta wait two years for that -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. This is your NGE/CU moment CCP.
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.08.26 16:00:00 - [2635] Actually the unholy rage data came out a few months after unholy rage. So it is about time for data on the current effort. CCP Sreegs has shown data to the CSM, and at a show in Las Vegas. But he has yet to make a blog for the rest of us.
Meridian Siri	Posted - 2011.08.27 00:41:00 - [2636] Grown tired of counting the number of days for a solid response and the many broken promises (actually just stopped). You remaining players will see the second coming before you get a decent report from CCP on this issue or get them to follow through on promises to revisit dead content, etc. Later suckers. (Accounts time out in 4 days)
Nemesis Factor Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.08.27 04:39:00 - [2637] Edited by: Nemesis Factor on 27/08/2011 04:40:53 Originally by: Leisen Dunno, Henry. Seems to me a lot of posts in here are basically "I don't care," posts. And 80+ pages in over a year isn't impressive, imo... Hell, I'm only posting out of boredom. >80+ pages in over a year >in over a year >over a year HERP ==================== ~/~ Sultan of Buruni
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.08.28 19:37:00 - [2638] Originally by: Vincent Athena Two year old data. We want equivalent data for the current effort. +1 _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Rasz Lin Caldari Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated	Posted - 2011.08.29 08:53:00 - [2639] Arvasaras 20 randomly generated characters, eatch in CNR in 1 man corp with randomly generated name Vellaine: 7 randomly generated characters, eatch in CNR in 1 man corp with randomly generated name Akonoinen 12 randomly generated characters, eatch in CNR in 1 man corp with randomly generated name Hageken: >10 randomly generated characters, eatch in CNR in 1 man corp with randomly generated name and so on mission running bots are not being touched by CCP.
Kharvor	Posted - 2011.08.31 16:49:00 - [2640] Edited by: Kharvor on 31/08/2011 16:49:32 Mendolus insisted that I post in this thread. So here I am. As others have pointed out in this thread, a huge concentration of botting appears to be centered in a few select alliances. Maybe CCP should look at a group accountability tactic. We've all been in corporations that have kicked members for botting (or smacktalk in merc corps). Maybe CCP needs to clamp down on those alliances and have them enforce no botting rules. When CCP finds a extensive use of bots in an alliance, that alliance gets a warning to make it stop. If it continues the alliance gets broken up, they lose their space, and all their stuff in that space. If the bots are neuts then it should be no problem for those alliances to destroy the neut bots the same way they stringently enforce NBSI. If the bots continue to survive and thrive en masse like they are in the above linked systems then obviously that alliance can't control its residents and they lose their space and their stuff in that space. Make botting something that can destroy an alliance and remove sov. Maybe then we'll see a drop.

Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.08.31 18:15:00 - [2641] Originally by: Rasz Lin Arvasaras 20 randomly generated characters, eatch in CNR in 1 man corp with randomly generated name Vellaine: 7 randomly generated characters, eatch in CNR in 1 man corp with randomly generated name Akonoinen 12 randomly generated characters, eatch in CNR in 1 man corp with randomly generated name Hageken: >10 randomly generated characters, eatch in CNR in 1 man corp with randomly generated name and so on mission running bots are not being touched by CCP. Its possible those are all gold farmers and being run by an actual person. CCP cannot ban then until they actually RMT, and then the farmers just start a new account. At the Las Vegas show CCP Sreegs says they are dealing with the issue of what determines the identity of the PLAYER. I assume its to deal with the above issue, so they can ban the player and stop them from just starting a new account, once banned.
Ager Agemo Caldari Care Factor	Posted - 2011.09.01 17:01:00 - [2642] DIE BOTS DIE!
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.09.03 11:59:00 - [2643] Originally by: Vincent Athena Two year old data. We want equivalent data for the current effort. ^^ this!
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.09.03 22:03:00 - [2644] anything new here? _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Wizlawz	Posted - 2011.09.04 00:26:00 - [2645] Edited by: Wizlawz on 04/09/2011 00:28:17 i am asssuming BOTTING as in macros? but what is RMT?? either way im sure it sux.
MarVAqN	Posted - 2011.09.04 01:08:00 - [2646] Playing Devil's Advocate. EVE is a game, and by comparison one of the better ones. Now while I see the issue of bots has not decreased, I do not see the All out war against them making much difference. In the nearly 6 years of Gameplay and the thousands of posts from angry miners complaining about mining bots, all I can say is SO WHAT. If there is someone using a bot program to mine while he is at work making an honest wage, then comes home to play the game I say more power to them. I have been hearing that BOT WILL DESTROY THE ECONOMY for those same 6 years, and guess what It has not happened. The market in EVE is more resilient than the real world markets they emulate, and the sky is falling predictions are less about change then they are about Miners too afraid to go Low or Null to find roids to mine. Real life mining is long and painstakingly dull, I for one don't want to mine 7 hours to build a ship and play for only 2 hours, lose it to a Ganker or NPC and have to repeat the long drudgery of mining. If EvE is supposed to be a sandbox, where the economy and the universe is created by the players, don't you think automated mining devices would have been invented by now? and for that don't you think being able to talk to an agent while is space would have been figured out as well? I'm just sayin' is all.... Look Bots are not so bad, Even if some guys spends 14 hours mining using a bot and buys stuff on the market he is still putting money into circulation. If that same guy mines on his own for 14 hours he will still buy something on the market, and the Capitalistic wheel goes round and round. Okay so you have gold farmers, Big deal if someone buys gold they run the risks of A. getting caught by CCP and getting banned or B. They Could get their account hacked and have all their "possessions" stolen. But as CCP says these things are in the realm of real life intrigue, espionage and risk that EVE is supposed to represent. Besides there is an option C. If you use a bot to mine, and you are found out, you make yourself a target for suicide Gankers. And for me I like Ninja salvaging those. Well that's my OTHER View of things.
Stibbins	Posted - 2011.09.04 07:47:00 - [2647] The fallacy here is that bots don't harm anyone. Everything in Eve is competitive. If there were no bots then certain easily botted activities like mining and level 4s would become much more lucrative and attract more non-cheating players to participate.
Novon Toll	Posted - 2011.09.05 22:55:00 - [2648] Mining Bots are big a problem. It'd be less of one if CCP didn't make hulks and mac's able to sit in asteroid fields and rep without worry of destruction in Empire. That and CCP doesn't do anything but 'investigate' when your report bots...
Rykuss Gallente	Posted - 2011.09.06 00:29:00 - [2649] Originally by: MarVAqN Playing Devil's Advocate. EVE is a game, and by comparison one of the better ones. Now while I see the issue of bots has not decreased, I do not see the All out war against them making much difference. In the nearly 6 years of Gameplay and the thousands of posts from angry miners complaining about mining bots, all I can say is SO WHAT. If there is someone using a bot program to mine while he is at work making an honest wage, then comes home to play the game I say more power to them. I have been hearing that BOT WILL DESTROY THE ECONOMY for those same 6 years, and guess what It has not happened. The market in EVE is more resilient than the real world markets they emulate, and the sky is falling predictions are less about change then they are about Miners too afraid to go Low or Null to find roids to mine. Real life mining is long and painstakingly dull, I for one don't want to mine 7 hours to build a ship and play for only 2 hours, lose it to a Ganker or NPC and have to repeat the long drudgery of mining. If EvE is supposed to be a sandbox, where the economy and the universe is created by the players, don't you think automated mining devices would have been invented by now? and for that don't you think being able to talk to an agent while is space would have been figured out as well? I'm just sayin' is all.... Look Bots are not so bad, Even if some guys spends 14 hours mining using a bot and buys stuff on the market he is still putting money into circulation. If that same guy mines on his own for 14 hours he will still buy something on the market, and the Capitalistic wheel goes round and round. Okay so you have gold farmers, Big deal if someone buys gold they run the risks of A. getting caught by CCP and getting banned or B. They Could get their account hacked and have all their "possessions" stolen. But as CCP says these things are in the realm of real life intrigue, espionage and risk that EVE is supposed to represent. Besides there is an option C. If you use a bot to mine, and you are found out, you make yourself a target for suicide Gankers. And for me I like Ninja salvaging those. Well that's my OTHER View of things. In eve, like life, noone owes you a damn thing. If only you people could get that through your thick skulls. It's your responsibility to keep you stocked with isk to buy things, not CCP's. Incursions and missions give out stupid amounts of isk, incursions moreso. Use that isk to buy stuff. Who the hell "mines for seven hours to build a ship, then plays for two hours, gets blown up and starts the process over?" lolwut?!! You don't even have to mine, all you need is isk. Stop trying to do everything, decide what it is you want to do and then do it. Maybe then you'll quit spouting these ridiculous claims and presenting ridiculous scenarios for your argument. Can I have your Vindicator? :D
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.09.06 13:20:00 - [2650] bump for this problem

Aquila Draco	Posted - 2011.09.08 23:10:00 - [2651] Originally by: Novon Toll Mining Bots are big a problem. It'd be less of one if CCP didn't make hulks and mac's able to sit in asteroid fields and rep without worry of destruction in Empire. That and CCP doesn't do anything but 'investigate' when your report bots... you have a point... players wrote many many many solutions to this problem and no way that all of them are bad... but nothing moved from start line...
Shiangti Caldari Revelation Exploration Inc. Without Remorse.	Posted - 2011.09.09 04:27:00 - [2652] Lets keep this thread on top till the very end
Elanor Vega	Posted - 2011.09.09 08:12:00 - [2653] Originally by: Shiangti Lets keep this thread on top till the very end this problem is on top from the very very first day
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.09.09 08:49:00 - [2654] i just hope that EVE itself wont end up like this old forums... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Avila Cracko	Posted - 2011.09.09 12:36:00 - [2655] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae i just hope that EVE itself wont end up like this old forums... +1
Severian Carnifex Minmatar	Posted - 2011.09.09 14:17:00 - [2656] Edited by: Severian Carnifex on 09/09/2011 14:17:39 Can we get some real dev blog on this subject... and not only "there is report bot button" "dev blog"? only asking whats promised looooong time ago...
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.09.09 17:00:00 - [2657] this thread: 2010.12.05 23:51:00 2011.09.09 17:10:00 only problem is that we don't see the end of this problem... _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)
Miyammato Musashi Freeport Exploration	Posted - 2011.09.09 17:01:00 - [2658] Originally by: Shiangti Lets keep this thread on top till the very end k
Quorra Adama Minmatar	Posted - 2011.09.09 17:06:00 - [2659] Think we can hit 90 pages before shutdown? \|-\| Internet Spaceships: VERY Serious Business.
Crucis Cassiopeiae Amarr PORSCHE AG	Posted - 2011.09.09 17:06:00 - [2660] Originally by: Quorra Adama Think we can hit 90 pages before shutdown? we can try... :p _______________________________________________ "Everybody's at war with different things... I'm at war with my own heart sometimes" (by 2Pac)

bornaa	Posted - 2011.09.09 17:09:00 - [2661] Originally by: Crucis Cassiopeiae i just hope that EVE itself wont end up like this old forums...


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