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iKill Giants
The David Project
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Posted - 2010.12.15 03:00:00 -
[331]
Originally by: DHB WildCat
The entire point is to prove that a 10 mil cruiser after rigs and fitting will absolutely pwn you in a 200 mil Battleship after rigs and fittings and do so, so completely that it will leave you embarrassed and humiliated!
Provided your fit is useful against a battleship. Being engaged under a battleship's pilot's terms will lead to death or fleeing unless you happen to have a fit that can counter drones and other countermeasures.
Several weeks ago I managed to get in range of and point a sniper Tempest that had been posted roughly 200 km off a gate and wear down his shields with a Rifter. He had no drones, and seemed untanked. Halfway through armor, a friend in a Vagabond warps to him and kills me faster than I could warp away. Point being, as honorable as the idea of 1v1 is, it seems anymore that it's unrealistic to hope for it. ---------
I am here to inform, no more, no less. |
The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.15 03:01:00 -
[332]
Edited by: The Djego on 15/12/2010 03:09:32 Edited by: The Djego on 15/12/2010 03:04:59
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: The Djego
What is funny since you started to smack about CAOD ****, that doesn't belong in a thread outside of CAOD and honestly not even in a thread in CAOD.
DBH dogged on me pretty much out of nowhere, so I dogged on him back. Then he melted down completely. I mean come on, that's at least kind of entertaining.
You don't need to defend FW on the forums, everyone knows it is rather questionable as far as tactics and involved pvpers go by the nature of the system itself.
This is nothing personal, just the way it is. Make a point about BS balance, prove it with the epic BC stats of your main and your corp if you like and feel it would add extra wight to your argument(in most cases it doesn't, but it is nice to see where people coming from to understand he POV better) or leave it be, but don't smack people because you feel like it would add something to the thread(it doesn't add anything). ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2010.12.15 03:06:00 -
[333]
Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 15/12/2010 03:01:48
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: The Djego
What is funny since you started to smack about CAOD ****, that doesn't belong in a thread outside of CAOD and honestly not even in a thread in CAOD.
DBH dogged on me pretty much out of nowhere, so I dogged on him back. Then he melted down completely. I mean come on, that's at least kind of entertaining.
You don't need to defend FW on the forums, everyone knows it is rather questionable as far as tactics and involved pvpers go by the nature of the system itself.
This is nothing personal, just the way it is. Make a point about BS balance, prove it with the epic BC stats of your main and your corp if you like or leave it be, but don't smack people because you feel like it would add something to the thread(it don't).
There's terrible pvp'ers everywhere (including FW I agree). I have too much self respect to idly let randoms dog on me and just take it. The fact that DBH is happy to dish and yet flips completely out when he gets a little back makes it entertaining.
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Lord Booya
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Posted - 2010.12.15 03:18:00 -
[334]
Edited by: Lord Booya on 15/12/2010 03:20:24
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 15/12/2010 03:01:48
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: The Djego
What is funny since you started to smack about CAOD ****, that doesn't belong in a thread outside of CAOD and honestly not even in a thread in CAOD.
DBH dogged on me pretty much out of nowhere, so I dogged on him back. Then he melted down completely. I mean come on, that's at least kind of entertaining.
You don't need to defend FW on the forums, everyone knows it is rather questionable as far as tactics and involved pvpers go by the nature of the system itself.
This is nothing personal, just the way it is. Make a point about BS balance, prove it with the epic BC stats of your main and your corp if you like or leave it be, but don't smack people because you feel like it would add something to the thread(it don't).
There's terrible pvp'ers everywhere (including FW I agree). I have too much self respect to idly let randoms dog on me and just take it. The fact that DBH is happy to dish and yet flips completely out when he gets a little back makes it entertaining.
LMAO did you call DHB WildCat a "random". Do you honestly not know who this is and yes by the looks of all the text he dogged FW and then you made it personal by using names and corp names.
You are in for one hell of a surprise I think! Now yes I am a "fanboi" love his vids, but I think you are in over your head here
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DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2010.12.15 03:39:00 -
[335]
To Lord,
I do appreciate the encouragement, but I really do hope he beats me... lol I really dont see it happening but I love battleships and would really like to see it win, if so I hope he'll then accept my challenge to fight me in a battlecruiser. 8)
In anycase it will be fun and interesting. I still however wouldnt bet on the battleship solely because of lack of speed, range, tracking, ect. A battleship just simply cannot control the field witht these ships and I really think that is wrong.
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oldmanst4r
Minmatar oldmanst4r's Corporation
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Posted - 2010.12.15 04:05:00 -
[336]
Originally by: DHB Wildcat Much anger, HONOURS INSULTED, DUELZ TO THE DEATHZ
Originally by: Emperor Cheney WTF?
Originally by: Liang Nuren I ARE EPIC TROLZ! lolololololol
*munches popcorn*
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.15 04:06:00 -
[337]
Originally by: DHB WildCat I still however wouldnt bet on the battleship
I bet on the battleship because he's going to fit it to kill cruisers. Medium gun/neut Domi anyone? Massive passive tanked smartbombing AML Scorpion? But a generic PVP fit has a good chance of dying, I agree.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.12.15 04:06:00 -
[338]
Originally by: DHB WildCat
In anycase it will be fun and interesting. I still however wouldnt bet on the battleship solely because of lack of speed, range, tracking, ect. A battleship just simply cannot control the field witht these ships and I really think that is wrong.
As long as we are talking more or less standard pvp setups (i.e. no insanely expensive faction points, or jokes like AB nos TD cruisers starting at 0km that are practically useless in general pvp), I dont see the t1 cruiser standing any chance at all against a remotely competent BS pilot tbh.
Ofc you can always come up with a specifically taylored fit that beats a certain ship, but that doesnt prove the point.
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William Cooly
Sol Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.12.15 04:12:00 -
[339]
Originally by: oldmanst4r *munches popcorn*
*reaches over and takes a handful* -
I troll stupid people. |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2010.12.15 04:39:00 -
[340]
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 15/12/2010 04:40:05
I first thought of a scorpion fitted with precision cruises and a rack of ecm, but then I thought that was cheap as hell. Then I was thinking of a neut cruiser fitted domi, but then I also thought that was cheap as hell. So yeah, I'll go with a typical pvp fit. And I really can't afford crazy faction stuff, nor would I use it here if I could.
To the extent we're arguing via a 1 v 1, it's odd that we're both arguing the opposite side. I'd like to see the cruiser win, because I would like to see small ships have a chance against bigger and badder, and previously I argued here that a BS should not solo. DHB, on the other hand, said he'd like to see the BS win. I don't see this as proving anything, as 1 v 1's are basically rock paper scissors, but with the ship classes involved I think it's more like rock paper scissors where one guy promises not to use rock.
It's kind of lose lose for me, because there's no upside to beating a cruiser in a bs, and if I lose it's going to be endless grief on the killmail. That said, the couple times I've 1 v 1'd before it's been fun.
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: DHB WildCat
In anycase it will be fun and interesting. I still however wouldnt bet on the battleship solely because of lack of speed, range, tracking, ect. A battleship just simply cannot control the field witht these ships and I really think that is wrong.
As long as we are talking more or less standard pvp setups (i.e. no insanely expensive faction points, or jokes like AB nos TD cruisers starting at 0km that are practically useless in general pvp), I dont see the t1 cruiser standing any chance at all against a remotely competent BS pilot tbh.
Fortunately for DHB I'm barely on the outside of being a competent pilot, if that, but yeah, I think I should probably win, although some crazy fringe fit could beat me. Who knows though. It's kind of lose lose for me, but it's internet spaceships. I don't expect it to prove anything, but hopefully it will be fun.
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Target Painter
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Posted - 2010.12.15 05:58:00 -
[341]
Edited by: Target Painter on 15/12/2010 06:00:09 Edited by: Target Painter on 15/12/2010 05:59:32
Originally by: Kail Storm But @Target Painter when you use x2 invuln x2 LSE, Please explain how you can use tackle as well? This leads me to think you have never flown a Pest as there is only 1 more Slot and you need your MWD
...
Originally by: Target Painter
Originally by: Kail Storm Also in what world does a BC have 94k EHP [Drake with no Tackle]
2 invuls + 2 meta 4 LSEs give around 95K EHP, while allowing room for a point.
Originally by: Kail Storm 94k EHP [Drake with no Tackle]
Originally by: Kail Storm [Drake with no Tackle]
Originally by: Kail Storm Drake
Originally by: Kail Storm Drake
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:14:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Target Painter ...
Its easy to get confused when you start talking about 94K EHP on a BC.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:19:00 -
[343]
Curious what kind of fit you using to get 94K out of a drake? with worth mentioning DPS and tackle and an MWD?
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Storm Templar
Amarr ANZAC ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:49:00 -
[344]
Originally by: William Cooly
Originally by: oldmanst4r *munches popcorn*
*reaches over and takes a handful*
*knocks you both out and take your popcorn*
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2010.12.15 07:01:00 -
[345]
A T1 battleship thats fit correctly for solo/small gang use will kill a T1 cruiser in a 1v1 no problem.
A T1 battleship fit for fleet use then caught solo will die to a solo fit T1 cruiser. Thats not a problem with the battleship though. Its called pilot error. A T2 sniper HAC fit for fleet work by itself will ALSO die to a correctly solo fit T1 cruiser.
Even a T1 solo battlecruiser wll probably die to a T1 solo battleship.
In the world of EVE these kind of 1v1s are rare. What happens on the field is much more complicated. Small gangs trying to blob solo targets. Slightly bigger gangs trying to blob them. Ect. Solo BS are easy to blob and can't tackle their natural prey very well.
But when someone in a lighter ship does make a mistake and attack a solo pvp fit BS by themselves it doesn't tend to end well for them.
Also Liang, what are you arguing for again? A BS buff of some sort? A BC nerf? A supercap Nerf?
Personally I'd be happy with cynos needing to be up for 10-20 seconds before anything could come through them. The only way to successfully 'scout' a cyno gang is to know if the group you're fighting probably will cyno on top of you, then to avoid being tackled by anything that could keep a cyno up long enough for a fleet to jump on top of you until you could confirm all their titans (blackops) pilots were logged off.
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chrisss0r
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.12.15 07:31:00 -
[346]
ohmygoddon a rifter can totally kill a sniper zealot. The sky is falling
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.15 07:37:00 -
[347]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita Also Liang, what are you arguing for again? A BS buff of some sort? A BC nerf? A supercap Nerf?
I'd say that I'm arguing that battleships are losing their role to battlecruisers and capitals. On the one side, capitals have much better absolute mobility through cynos (though their local mobility isn't too far off plated BS's), and on the other you've got Battlecruisers bringing most of what you'd normally turn to a battleship for - which is fantastic tank and fantastic gank.
In many practical ways that people are refusing to understand, BCs actually gank much harder than BSs. When your target selection consists of some variety of smaller ships (Frig - BC), battleships are at an extreme disadvantage due to the mantra that smaller craft shall affect battleships 100% and battleships shall affect smaller craft 0%. Of course, nobody likes to fly an easy target, and the potential prey for battleships decreased even more.
Even now, the only really good battleships to fly in small gangs are those that bring extra utility to the fight - the aforementioned Tempest with its two utility highs, the Scorpion, etc. I think at this point, I'm merely pointing out inconsistencies: - BS's frequently take **** because a strong BS class would invalidate "everything" below it (BCs specifically)... yet its somehow okay that BCs violate this exact principle with regards to cruisers (and even entire classes of T2 cruisers) - It is frequently cited that battleships should be slow and ungainly because of their immense DPS and Tanks. Yet their DPS isn't immense, and their tanks aren't immense. Battlecruisers will get you most of the way there too - and in a package that isn't slow or ungainly at all.
I dunno - I could go on for a while I think. Ultimately I don't really want to see an across the board BC nerf. I still think that Tier 2 BCs are the best balanced ship class in game (though the Drake is proving to be very formidable - perhaps too formidable - when massed). I think that an across the board BC nerf would dangerously jeopardize that balance, and it'd be very difficult to regain. However, I'm also in strongly favor of eliminating the ship tier system - which runs many of the same risks. My biggest beef with the 'Drake ACTUALLY Sucks!' crowd is that they're living in some kind of crazy fantasy land where the somehow isn't simultaneously the best brawling and Fleet BC. Just admit its good - even fantastic. But don't whine about how 'Caldari sucks'.
And on the other side - capitals. Capitals. Well, capitals simply do the 'damage and tank' thing better... as they well should. They also field very impressive mobility through a cyno.
I don't really know what the right answer is - but I do know that one of the largest SP sinks in the game is being pushed almost entirely out of small gang combat, and that (IMO) is bad for the game. Maybe make more clear delineations between what's a "fleet BS" vs a "small gang BS". Maybe increase battleship mobility dramatically and make BCs battleships with cruiser guns - is the damage application not enough of a penalty?
I dunno. But the problem itself kinda sucks, and people denying its a problem are being pretty naive.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army
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Posted - 2010.12.15 08:36:00 -
[348]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 15/12/2010 08:40:33
Jesus this thread still going on, people got to see there are different situations that call for different tools. Battleship isnt great for random roams looking for targets, its meant to take head-on fights. Running around alone in one in heavy traffic regions is gonna get you killed obviously that is not rocket science.
However, battleships being useless in small gang and not hitting stuff is totally bogus. Try to get under the guns of 10 battleships at once with your cruiser or battlecruiser and tell me how it worked out for you, I can tell you that experiment will be over very quick.
Now if we argue 25 battlecruisers beat 10 battleships thats another story, numbers win the game has been like that forever. Bring 18 battleships and rip them apart, you can always ship up but you cant magically create more pilots.
If hotdropping is such a huge issue, call some friends that hotdrop the hotdroppers, I hear there are people that like supercap kills and is willing to travel on short notice.
There is one thing that is annoying with shipping up to battleships and that is your targets running as soon as you are not completely outgunned anymore. But thats the game, cant force them to stay if you lack the numbers to take them in the same ship class.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.15 08:58:00 -
[349]
If you lose with a BS fitted for solo work against a t1 cruiser you either got incredibly unlucky, or more likely you did something horribly wrong.
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RagnarRox
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Posted - 2010.12.15 09:26:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: DHB WildCat I still however wouldnt bet on the battleship
I bet on the battleship because he's going to fit it to kill cruisers. Medium gun/neut Domi anyone? Massive passive tanked smartbombing AML Scorpion? But a generic PVP fit has a good chance of dying, I agree.
-Liang
Wait Liang I thought BS`s were totally useless, and couldnt actually do any damage to any target because bad tracking.
Liang has crossed his wires, He has put in so many thousands of hours Ratting/Lvl 4ing that he expects BS`s to Pwn as much in PVP as PVE, Not gonna happen. Take what you Can, when you can. |
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Calapine
Xeno Tech Corp Black Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.12.15 10:28:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
And on the other side - capitals. Capitals. Well, capitals simply do the 'damage and tank' thing better... as they well should. They also field very impressive mobility through a cyno.
I feel I am inviting flames for this, but why not make cyno jumps non-instant? 20 seconds jumpdrive spool up time for dreads, 40 seconds for SC, 60 for Titans.* And toss in a new cyno effect, with different sizes according to cap-ship type...so you know what's coming through.
Cala
*random numbers, subject to change
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.15 12:07:00 -
[352]
Originally by: Calapine BS ARE the largest 'normal' shiptype and should be there to fulfill peoples "I want to fly a large, powerful behemoth space ship" sf-nerd-urges. If they feel big and unwieldy that's just right.
Actually if people got this urges they just could fit a few 1600mm on her BC. For more reasonable people the BS is a tool to get certain jobs done, like any ship class in eve, and this job shouldn't be limited to immobile brick with lacking damage projection, sniping stuff at 200km, PVE or POS/Cap basher.
Originally by: Calapine If you think they are currently 'underpowered' and laking distinction compared the current Tier 2 BC lineup, I'd rather see improvents in raw dps and tank, while leaving tracking and mobility unchanged (therefore preventing the dreaded solopwnmobile).
That would be pretty cool, however I think having a BS to shot BS is kind of pointless. Mobility and damage projection is what they need to become more attractive again for common field use, since this are the main two points where they lack to much compared to BCs today.
The only time, the BS where a solopawnmobiles was around the time where they went 4-6km/s, killed your cap with Nos, handed out 70km bumps and couldn't be effectively stopped by webs by her sheer mass and speed(basically the first nano BS of the old). Outside of this they where the heavy front line ship, easy to tackle and shoot, but not to limited in her ability to return fire and catching stuff. Plus they where actually a true predator to the BC class, like the BC is to cruisers this days.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Joss56
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.15 12:53:00 -
[353]
Edited by: Joss56 on 15/12/2010 12:53:51 Do it simple and talk about T1 hulls:
Don't take the numbers has what it should be but how it could work so that every ship has is own place instead of bringing new ships when those already existing are not balanced/used/suck.
If you need 3 frigs to pown a cruiser -> than you shoud need 3 to 4 cruisers to blow a battlecruiser -> this one should be abble to pown a battleship on outnumbering it by 5 or 6+
Wy should you need 80 battleships to pown some cap, and a single faction cruiser t2 frig or t1 battlecruiser to take down a battleship?
-games are not about logics i'm aware of that but then BS has no meaning in the game, a battlecruiser can do almost the same quite well or even better if you forget the "sniper" that can be replaced by any other tactic.
________________________________________________
"You do realise you live on a globe, right? And that there places outside the USA/UK?"
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dAhAmbUrglA
Paxton Industries -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2010.12.15 16:12:00 -
[354]
The popcorn looks good, I might have some as well actually.
Before mentioning bs pvp, I'll restate that for general pve (anoms, l4s) there is no ship like a battleship, you won't get a battlecruiser or HAC or even t3 that can run sanctums or l4s faster than a properly fit marauder/faction bs, a tengu might outdo a t1 bs sometimes.
And battleships are far far far from useless in pvp, anyone who says they're bad/dying doesn't knw what pvp is. Anyone can say that ship x has weakness y, eg: A sniper HAC loses to a CR cruiser, a BC will probably beat a HAC in a 1v1, frigates die to neuts and drones, a dreadnaught is countered by something that can move, etc etc etc.
Good things about bs'es include their ability to have a nice tank to dps ratio at an affordable and insurable cost, their ability to dedicate a few slots (neut/web) and some drones to deal with smaller stuff, bs fleets can put out a higher alpha than any other type of fleet. And for small gang pvp, eg: lowsec gates, or highsec wars, an rr bs gang with a scorp or two in it is amazingly powerful.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2010.12.15 18:00:00 -
[355]
Yeah Liang I can agree that ganky battlecruisers deal more damage on average. I don't fly a nanopest because it does more DPS on target than a hurricane. (In fact a hurricane will kill most things that are tackled quicker. Especialy tackle frigates.) I fly a nanopest because of the 2 heavy neuts and the additional HP.
So do battleships need more tank and gank or more tracking or more speed?
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.15 20:05:00 -
[356]
Originally by: dAhAmbUrglA Before mentioning bs pvp, I'll restate that for general pve (anoms, l4s) there is no ship like a battleship, you won't get a battlecruiser or HAC or even t3 that can run sanctums or l4s faster than a properly fit marauder/faction bs, a tengu might outdo a t1 bs sometimes.
I notice a distinct pattern of farmers switching from Ravens to Tengus. It's actually a bit surprising to fly thru 0.0 and get a glimpse of a Tengu on scanner before it cloaks up, system after system, where there used to be Ravens just months ago.
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DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2010.12.16 00:50:00 -
[357]
The simple fact of the matter is that the Battleship doesnt have a role anymore. In every circumstance another ship can the same job better and cheaper.
Yes they can snipe better than any other ship around, but probing makes that useless.
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dAhAmbUrglA
Paxton Industries -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2010.12.16 00:57:00 -
[358]
Originally by: Ephemeron I notice a distinct pattern of farmers switching from Ravens to Tengus. It's actually a bit surprising to fly thru 0.0 and get a glimpse of a Tengu on scanner before it cloaks up, system after system, where there used to be Ravens just months ago.
I still have raven(s) on scan when there is a macro ratter about, I think most tengus that cloak up are just normal ninja ratting fits. And in anoms, I still see a lot more bses than tengus.
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chrisss0r
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.12.16 01:45:00 -
[359]
Tengu was a big ****ing present for the macro ratters.
quick align time and bubble evasion. GL catching those
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Joss56
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.12.16 02:51:00 -
[360]
Edited by: Joss56 on 16/12/2010 02:52:28
Originally by: chrisss0r Tengu was a big ****ing present for the macro ratters.
quick align time and bubble evasion. GL catching those
All this thread learnd me, and i thank you all guys 'n guirls, is that it's not interesting at all waste time training to bs 5 or marauders when a proteus is more "versatil" (?)
By the same time, is the only way for me to finaly mission lvl5 in low sec in dual cloaky tengu/proteus improbable ships.
Thanks ________________________________________________
"You do realise you live on a globe, right? And that there places outside the USA/UK?"
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